This morning, I see that some people are quite abuzz about a new Pando article “revealing” that the foundation of Pierre Omidyar, the publisher of First Look Media which publishes The Intercept, gave several hundred thousand dollars to a Ukraininan “pro-democracy” organization opposed to the ruling regime. This, apparently, is some sort of scandal that must be immediately addressed not only by Omidyar, but also by every journalist who works at First Look. That several whole hours elapsed since the article was published on late Friday afternoon without my commenting is, for some, indicative of disturbing stonewalling.
I just learned of this article about 30 minutes ago, which is why I’m addressing it “only” now (I apologize for not continuously monitoring Twitter at all times, including the weekend). I have not spoken to Pierre or anyone at First Look – or, for that matter, anyone else in the world – about any of this, and am speaking only for myself here. To be honest, I barely know what it is that I’m supposed to boldly come forth and address, so I’ll do my best to make a few points about this specific article but also make some general points about journalistic independence that I do actually think are important:
(1) The Pando article adopts the tone of bold investigative journalism that intrepidly dug deep into secret materials and uncovered a “shocking” bombshell (“Step out of the shadows…. Pierre Omidyar”). But as I just discovered with literally 5 minutes of Googling, the Omidyar Network’s support for the Ukrainian group in question, Centre UA, has long been publicly known: because the Omidyar Network announced the investment at the time in a press release and then explained it on its website.
In a September 15, 2011 press release, the Omidyar Network “announced today its intent to grant up to $3M to six leading organizations focused on advancing government transparency and accountability” including “Centre UA (Ukraine)”. The Network then devoted an entire page of its website (entitled “New Citizen (Centre UA)”) to touting the investment and explaining its rationale and purpose (the group, claims the Network, “seeks to enable citizen participation in national and regional politics by amplifying the voices of Ukrainian citizens and promoting open and accountable government”).
I think it’s perfectly valid for journalists to investigate the financial dealings of corporations and billionaires who fund media outlets, whether it be those who fund or own Pando, First Look, MSNBC, Fox News, The Washington Post or any other. And it’s certainly reasonable to have concerns and objections about the funding of organizations that are devoted to regime change in other countries: I certainly have those myself. But the Omidyar Network doesn’t exactly seem ashamed of these donations, and they definitely don’t seem to be hiding them, given that they trumpeted them in their own press releases and web pages.
(2) Can someone please succinctly explain why this is a scandal that needs to be addressed, particularly by First Look journalists? That’s a genuine request. Wasn’t it just 72 hours ago that the widespread, mainstream view in the west (not one that I shared) was that there was a profound moral obligation to stand up and support the brave and noble Ukrainian opposition forces as they fight to be liberated from the brutal and repressive regime imposed on them by Vladimir Putin’s puppet? When did it suddenly become shameful in those same circles to support those very same opposition forces?
In fact, I’ve been accused more times than I can count – including by a former NSA employee and a Eurasia Foundation spokesman – of being a Putin shill for not supporting the Ukrainian opposition and not denouncing Russian involvement there (by which they mean I’ve not written anything on this topic). Now we seem to have the exact opposite premise: that the real evil is supporting the opposition in Ukraine and any journalist who works at First Look – including ones who are repeatedly called criminals by top U.S. officials for publishing top secret government documents; or who risk their lives to go around the world publicizing the devastation wrought by America’s Dirty Wars and its dirty and lawless private contractors; or who have led the journalistic attack on the banks that own and control the government – are now tools of neo-liberal, CIA-cooperating imperialism which seeks to undermine Putin by secretly engineering the Ukrainian revolution. To call all of that innuendo muddled and incoherent is to be generous.
(3) Despite its being publicly disclosed, I was not previously aware that the Omidyar Network donated to this Ukrainian group. That’s because, prior to creating The Intercept with Laura Poitras and Jeremy Scahill, I did not research Omidyar’s political views or donations. That’s because his political views and donations are of no special interest to me – any more than I cared about the political views of the family that owns and funds Salon (about which I know literally nothing, despite having worked there for almost 6 years), or any more than I cared about the political views of those who control the Guardian Trust.
There’s a very simple reason for that: they have no effect whatsoever on my journalism or the journalism of The Intercept. That’s because we are guaranteed full editorial freedom and journalistic independence. The Omidyar Network’s political views or activities – or those of anyone else – have no effect whatsoever on what we report, how we report it, or what we say.
The author of the Pando article seems to understand this point quite well when it comes to excusing himself from working for a media outlet funded by national-security-state-supporting tech billionaires whose views he claims to find “repugnant”:
It is a problem we all have to contend with—PandoDaily’s 18-plus investors include a gaggle of Silicon Valley billionaires like Marc Andreessen (who serves on the board of eBay, chaired by Pierre Omidyar) and Peter Thiel (whose politics I’ve investigated [GG: before working for a media outlet he funded] and described as repugnant.)
So he acknowledges the truly repellent politics of those who fund the media outlet where he does his journalism: Andreessen, a Romney supporter, has become one of the NSA’s most devoted defenders, while the company owned by Paypal founder Thiel, Palantir Technologies, works extensively with the CIA and got caught scheming against journalists, WikiLeaks supporters and Chamber of Commerce critics. But he obviously believes those repellent views and activities do not reflect on him or his journalism. Indeed, any of you who are approvingly citing the Pando article are implicitly saying the same thing: namely, that media outlets funded by government-supporting tech moguls with repugnant histories can produce important journalism, including reporting on other tech moguls.
More generally, you’re endorsing the point that the political ideology of those who fund media outlets, no matter how much you dislike that ideology, does not mean that hard-hitting investigative journalism is precluded or that the journalism reflects the views of those who fund it. Anyone who thinks that The Intercept is or will be some sort of mouthpiece for U.S. foreign policy goals is invited to review the journalism we’ve produced in the 20 days we’ve existed.
Now, if you want to take the position that people should not work at organizations funded by oligarchs, or that journalism is inherently corrupted if funded by rich people with bad political views, then I hope you apply that consistently. Groups like the ACLU, Media Matters, the Center for Constitutional Rights and a whole slew of left-wing groups have been funded for years by billionaire George Soros and his foundations despite a long history of funding of and profiting from all sorts of capitalism projects anathema to the left, including Ukrainian pro-democracy groups (the same Pando writer previously claimed without evidence that the ACLU received a $20 million donation from the Koch Brothers). Or, as Kade Crockford of the ACLU of Massachusetts put it:
Are Chris Hayes and Rachel Maddow responsible for all the bad acts of Comcast, which owns MSNBC, or is their journalism impugned by those bad acts? Was WikiLeaks infected with Vladimir Putin’s sins, as some argued, because Julian Assange’s show appeared on RT? Or go ahead and apply those questions to virtually every large media organization or advocacy group you like, which needs substantial funding, which in turn requires that they seek and obtain that funding from very rich people who undoubtedly have political views and activities you find repellent.
That journalistic outlets fail to hold accountable large governmental and corporate entities is a common complaint. It’s one I share. It’s possible to do great journalism in discrete, isolated cases without much funding and by working alone, but it’s virtually impossible to do sustained, broad-scale investigative journalism aimed at large and powerful entities without such funding. As I’ve learned quite well over the last eight months, you need teams of journalists, and editors, and lawyers, and experts, and travel and technology budgets, and a whole slew of other tools that require serious funding. The same is true for large-scale activism.
That funding, by definition, is going to come from people rich enough to provide it. And such people are almost certainly going to have views and activities that you find objectionable. If you want to take the position that this should never be done, that’s fine: just be sure to apply it consistently to the media outlets and groups you really like.
But for me, the issue is not – and for a long time has not been – the political views of those who fund journalism. Journalists should be judged by the journalism they produce, not by those who fund the outlets where they do it. The real issue is whether they demand and obtain editorial freedom. We have. But ultimately, the only thing that matters is the journalism we or any other media outlets produce.
(4) Typical for this particular writer, the Pando article is filled with factual inaccuracies, including one extremely serious one:
Of the many problems that poses, none is more serious than the fact that Omidyar now has the only two people with exclusive access to the complete Snowden NSA cache, Glenn Greenwald and Laura Poitras. Somehow, the same billionaire who co-financed the “coup” in Ukraine with USAID, also has exclusive access to the NSA secrets—and very few in the independent media dare voice a skeptical word about it. [emphasis added]
Let’s leave to the side the laughable hyperbole that Omidyar is now the mastermind who has secretly engineered the Ukrainian uprising. Let’s also leave to the side a vital fact that people like this Pando writer steadfastly ignore: that there are numerous media entities in possession of tens of thousands of Snowden documents, including The Guardian, Bart Gellman/The Washington Post, The New York Times, and ProPublica, rendering absurd any conspiracy theories that Omidyar can control which documents are or are not published.
The real falsehood here is that Omidyar himself has any access, let alone “exclusive access”, to “the NSA secrets.” This is nothing short of a fabrication. The writer of this article just made that up.
The only Snowden documents Omidyar has ever seen are the ones that have been published as part of stories in media outlets around the world. He has no possession of those documents and no access to them. He has never sought or received access to those documents. He has played no role whatsoever in deciding which ones will be reported. He obviously plays no role in deciding which documents all those other news outlets will report. Other than generally conveying that there is much reporting left to be done on these documents – something I’ve publicly said many times – I don’t believe I’ve ever even had a single discussion with him about a single document in the archive.
We’ve continued to report on those documents with media outlets around the world – in the last month alone, I reported on numerous documents with NBC, while Laura did the same with The New York Times – and will continue to report on them at The Intercept with full editorial independence. But the claim that he has obtained possession of, or even access to, the archive (in full or in part) is an outright falsehood.
Other inaccuracies pervade the article. Marcy Wheeler, whose comments were prominently featured, complained rather vehemently and at length that the article wildly misrepresented what she said.
(5) I have a long history of condemning U.S. government interference in the governance of other countries, and of the accompanying jingoistic moral narrative that this interference is intended to engender Freedom and Democracy rather than the promotion of U.S. interests. I have equal scorn for those who feign opposition to Russian interference in the sovereignty of other countries while continuing to support all sorts of U.S. interference of exactly that sort. I know little about the specific Ukrainian group at issue here – do any of you touting this article know anything about them? – and I certainly don’t trust this writer to convey anything accurately.
But what I do know is that I would never temper, limit, suppress or change my views for anyone’s benefit – as anyone I’ve worked with will be happy to tell you – and my views on such interference in other countries isn’t going to remotely change no matter the actual facts here. I also know that I’m free to express those views without the slightest fear. And I have zero doubt that that’s true of every other writer at The Intercept. That’s what journalistic independence means.


“Can someone please succinctly explain why this is a scandal that needs to be addressed”
I can.
Mr. Omidyars proclivities are not a scandal on their own. And the independence of other journalists is not the point. You agreed to be a custodian of a persons historic act of conscience that has profound implications for our country. Then financially exploited that persons sacrifice beyond reason, and chose to do it with a man who has strong financial and political ties with the very government being exposed.
Well……. isn’t it a problem if your boss is in fact actively involved in a regime change movement in a country that is currently at the top of the feed and you don’t say so? Especially if this involvement is the very type of thing you are known for objecting to. It seems the Intercept really is very new and you must be awfully busy, but at the same time, isn’t there a risk of the APPEARANCE of a non-accidental oversight born of bias? Is it sufficient diligence to not look before you leap (into the endeavor)? It seems plausible that you were not interested in his politics, but I’ve been reading criticism that Glenn sold out since the day after you announced departing The Guardian. Shouldn’t that have served as notice? This is the kind of thing that I am worst at thinking through on my own, so please don’t interpret these as rhetorical questions. W
@Wat
Why is it so difficult for some to understand Glenn’s unequivocal, non-rhetorical, last paragraph, self-explanatory declaration of journalistic independence? After all, if he’s wrong on the facts, simply call him on it and cite specific sources and sound reasons for your rebuttal.
As another poster noted this simple concept earlier on here (well, yeah, it was me):
So, bring your facts or evidence with you, please, to rebut specific claims that are made on here by any reporter; because it gets very tiring listening to so many of you whine and complain that
It’s quite obvious to those of us who read it – so it’s unnecessary for you folks to continue to post it.
It’s naive to think that there’s such a thing as perfect “objectivity” or “journalistic independence”. And I’m not being cynical here, either. I appreciate the effort to be fair, but since most of us have different notions of “fairness” I don’t think anyone can expect perfection here.
So far as I’m concerned, all reporters have some kind of bias or self-interest. Unlike some, though (including the writer of the Pando piece, perhaps), I’m actually okay with that, so long as the reporter and the outlet involved are transparent about their biases.
Mr. Greenwald, there have been a couple of years when it seemed like The Guardian was the world’s newspaper, and it seemed like you were the world’s last reporter. Now, indeed, I’m willing to believe at least that you believe that you are free as a bird, “Vogelfrei” as the Germans say. Those who have read about how Comcast may come out and ask anyone who receives $20,000 out of its billions in … “charity” … to write letters on behalf of its latest mergers, people who thought they were independent, might fear this is naive. But perhaps Omidyar is a good master – throughout history there have always been some, after all. I’ve read that you voluntarily left the Guardian, which voluntarily smashed up its hard drive, and now you’re voluntarily reduced to writing on what looks suspiciously like a blog about spying that few people have heard of.
The problem though is not that you can refute Pando’s charges, but that such an obscure site even merits your attention. What would happen if you ever tried to publish about another leak, one not contained in Snowden’s cache of old documents, and somebody a lot more powerful than Pando decided to give you the Barrett Brown treatment, and claim that by describing it you were complicit in leaking the material rather than being a real reporter? There may be nothing else you can do, but can you at least level with us?
That funding, by definition, is going to come from people rich enough to provide it
I don’t get this logic. I would call it the easy way out. Why not let the people who want to read your work (such as me) pay for it? That would be the more honest option, no?
You may complain that in the age of the internet ‘content’ is not adequately paid for. True.
So help to change the situation.
No. That would be just another option, and most likely, a less effective one. Also, trying to infuse a moral component (the more “honest” option) to how we arrive at the truth is actually less logical than the method of “pay-if-you-like-it” journalism that you are proposing – and the fact that you cannot delineate between the two is disheartening.
As others have noted here, Glenn has made it quite clear that it isn’t the journey to the truth that matters, but that we get to the truth at all.
So…take a bus, a plane, a train, or a pogo-stick on your travels in search of the truth, and when it’s found be thankful you’ve arrived.
wsws.org reports that the US media increasing its propaganda offensive :
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/03/04/pers-m04.html
It is nothing more than a hit piece on Greenwald and you can see all the loyal government controlled media that jumped on
The real issue with journalistic independence is public perception of what exactly is indepedent.
In other parts of the world, it’s likely easier for news consumers to tell what news outlets tend to be more truthful. But we have no such luxury in the United States.
Years ago in Florida, after being fired from a Fox News affiliate for failing to fabricate a news story, two journalists sued, only to have a judge tell them their case had no merit because all televised news is defined as entertainment. That little ruling, as yet unchallenged, now defines all broadcast news in the United States as fictional entertainment.
And yet, people still believe it here.
Americans, I’m afraid to say, are ignorant beyond reason. I dare say Americans can best be characterized as stupid. After all, the truth stares us right in the face, yet we will sooner believe someone who does no more than tell us they are credible rather than actually demonstrating credibility.
I have discovered a way to maintain journalistic independence by essentially fighting fire with fire: by creating a wholly “fictional” show that includes news reporting (where possible, I am but one person with disabilities and am stretched quite thin, I do mostly secondary research.)
I am hoping to find help and production assistance for the show, but will only accept funding if I retain full craetive control. My show isn’t just a news program though, and I will be the first to admit it is heavily biased – towards the truth that is, as I do my best to only share what I understand to be the truth – and truth, as I understand it, can only be discovered individually. I therefore encourage people to research and confirm what I present. Of course, the show is also meant to effect change by doing what no news program or paper does: educate the reader.
What I hope will make the show successful is the mechanism by which I disquise the truth as fiction; by suggesting that everything that is wrong in the world is because of zombies. But, I also clearly define what a zombie is, a psychopath. I present the show as a diary on Youtube. This format and medium presents me with incredible opportunity to influence people – in much the same way the Endowment for Democracy influenced events in the Arab Uprising and certainly in the Ukraine. In other words, with this fictional show, I can get away with organizing people to rise up against oppression because the show is “just a show, right?”
If you are interested, look for the show on YouTube. I call it the Zombie Apocalypse Diaries, and I have completed 109 episodes so far.
And by the way, I make no money nor do I ever plan to profit from the show. I am seeking production funding so I can improve the show and promote it, but I do not seek to gain from the show. It is my gift to the world. It’s free. It includes no ads, and I have turned off all possible advertising on Youtube. That I have completed 109 episodes over the course of the past 19 months, and the fact that I have only two semi-loyal viewers, should be sufficient evidence to allow you to conclude that my intentions are genuine.
But anyway, the topic is journalistic independence. I apologize if it seemed I was mostly promoting my show; but I merely wanted to offer it up as an example of how we can achieve journalistic independence – through the same tactics used by media giants to lie to us, we can present lies which tell the truth.
I hope to be one of many who look to fiction to report fact in a world where fiction is reported as fact.
One “Scandal that needs to be addressed” is the degree to which the Neo-Nazis from the east, who were shipped to Kieve to provide “security” for the demonstrations were paid by money donated by Omidyar and his ilk.
(and they, by the way, were behind the snipers whose killings caused so much outrage and alarm in the West)
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-03-05/behind-kiev-snipers-it-was-somebody-new-coaltion-stunning-new-leak-reveals-truth
Fuckit. Nazi’s from West to Kiev, of course.
Yeah right ho ! All Omidyar’s doing of course, and nothing to do with the US causing instability like is suggested in this report concerning leaked information :
http://www.democracynow.org/2014/2/20/a_new_cold_war_ukraine_violence
Perhaps you should take a look at this report too :
http://www.democracynow.org/2014/3/3/who_is_provoking_the_unrest_in
This is an interesting article on the rise of the Fascists in the Ukraine
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/03/06/pers-m06.html
The main question is :
“Is truth copyrighted ?”
…and if it is , where to contact the corporate that owns it ? I need a contract for export !
You never cease to amaze, Glenn. Even when the topic doesn’t merit a response at all, you manage to write an article of worthy journalism.
Hey, Omidyar – how ’bout funding a news-reading tool that works like a Usenet browser on steroids – I get a google news-like feed, but I can plonk shitheads like MARK AMES that have proven themselves to be, at best, incompetent journalists, while getting everything from here, and , for example, some of the better stuff from RT, the Guardian, The Register, Computerworld, and the few good NYTimes writers. Or is there such a tool? Anyone?
Bear with me on this.
At 180, we don’t begrudge folks for making money. Even a lot of it, like Omidyar. But money travels a long way in some places and a little in others. A million bucks in New York City is chump change. A million in Beatrice, Nebraska is sweet, sweet music. Kinda makes sense. Beatrice doesn’t have the Museum of Modern Art, nor do they have millions of high-octane inhabitants packed like lemmings into shiny metal boxes (Sting quote).
America hosts over 6 million millionaire households, and we’re not even including real estate assets. America has more millionaires than the next nine countries combined. According to Forbes, The 400 wealthiest Americans are worth just over $2 trillion, roughly equivalent to the GDP of Russia. Their average net worth is $5 billion, $800 million more than last year. There are also more than 1,300 U.S. billionaires.
Despite the financial doom-and-gloom narrative, for the very first time, 50% of Congress belongs to the millionaires club. The folks for whom we punch ballots every two to four years, the ones we implore to give us, as Obama puts it, “a fair shake,” are the ones that use our donations for a limo ride to the country club after a pit stop at their bank, the one they own. As most of us try to figure out where the hell our money disappeared to, Capitol Hill pols have capital oozing from their pores.
Contrarily / ironically, the adjusted poverty rate in D.C. hovers around 23%. income inequality is at its worst since the Great Depression. Most remarkably, however, is that for the very first time, the bottom 90% of wage earners fights for less than 50% of all pretax income while the top 1% pockets a whopping 22.5%, according to a Pew Research Center study.
There are more than 46 million citizens living in poverty. But no matter how many times we hear the words “income inequality,” we heave a heavy sigh and write another check to the billion dollar utility company or the billion dollar insurance company or the billion dollar lending company or the billion dollar retail company or the billion dollar medical company or the largest company of all: the federal government.
So here’s the point. If you truly believe that your employer has no effect whatsoever on your journalism or the journalism of The Intercept, and if you truly believe that you are guaranteed full editorial freedom and journalistic independence, then why do you need Omidyar at all? The answer: Because lots of money travels a long way. You admitted, “…it’s virtually impossible to do sustained, broad-scale investigative journalism aimed at large and powerful entities without such funding.”
So, in light of the outrageous disparity between the haves and have-nots (I’m sure Omidyar’s paycheck to you isn’t life-changing), isn’t the greater question for journalists, “Why do you need billionaires?” Is there no alternative than to further concentrate power? Are there no alternatives for reportage? And why not? Have you given in to this paradigm? Perhaps what the world needs most are citizen journalists who don’t need handouts from Richie Rich.
As wealth concentrates, so too does the distribution of information. As the distribution of information concentrates, so too does the amount of gatekeepers. And as the amount of gatekeepers concentrates so too does our trust of media/reportage. Sure, New Look, TruthDig, etc. are admirable ventures. But organizations/institutions that are quick to illustrate how credentialed they are, how fit they are, should automatically be turned upside down and shaken until their pockets are clean. If we have learned anything it is that authority and wealth have largely become boundaries that “intercept” the ordinary citizen’s path toward truth and balance.
D.A. Forbes – Bear with me on this.
The paradigm that changes everything here is exactly what Glenn Greenwald has already made clear:
That it’s not who pays for the reporting, or even that anyone does or does not pay for it; but that in the end the result required is the all of reporting that is done is verifiable and accurate.
In other words, the truth found by any journalist must be the same for everyone, in exactly the same way that in science the facts must, in the end, be the same for everyone.
By all means shake the pockets of all the benefactors of any information source all you want, but for goodness sake, don’t conflate the end results with whatever mode of transportation that got you to your destination.
@D.A. By you’re reasoning I’d guess you actually think all journalism majors want to be hard-hitting, ethical reporters and would never comprise their integrity by betraying the code of ethics that comes with their chosen profession. And that everyone you see on the “news” has the freedom -and- a lucrative platform to express their personal views. And they do it well. They are so few and far between it’s physically painful to me. And I guarantee that it’s not anywhere near as lucrative for them as any of the major networks and cable news channels – but it damn sure pays more than a blogger or vlogger on youtube. Truth comes at a discount in the mainstream media and semi-literate provocateurs with a degree get the big bucks, and if they’re easy on the eyes they get a bonus – but even then, there are exceptions. The fact is, most of those people to stamp “journalist” on their forehead don’t deserve the money they’re paid for the privilege to distinguish themselves as one … but they love the celebrity, don’t they? Hell, I wonder how the salaries of Matt Lauer or Laura Spencer stack up to Bill O’Reilly, or Rachel Maddow, … or Bill Moyers , … or Amy Goodman, … or Lara Logan. John Stewart and Steven Colbert even figured out how to do it while making a mockery of the truth. It’s a sad commentary on that state of modern journalism that, if you truly believe and and stand for what the job title requires to know that truth doesn’t sell … it’s been marked down for years now and, if Keith Alexander’s veiled threat of impending media “leak” legislation holds water, then let the firesale is cancelled.
The reality is people like Glenn Greenwald need The Omidyar Networks of this world. Without a trust fund of epic proportions how could Glenn ever begin to afford all the reporters, editors, equipment, travel expenses, technology and tekkie to fund a media venture of this scope? … there wouldn’t be enough left over to pay for the toilet paper used by the lawyers to wipe their asses during the billable hours of their cigarette breaks. Are you proposing that they all do this for free? I. can’t. even. …
In a perfect world real, honest-to-goodness, vetted and credentialed journalists would get paid what they’re worth for unbiased, fair and factual reporting with laws to protect them from recrimination and/or prosecution for doing their job ethically – and they’d ALL be held to the same high standards. But we live in a world where the American public thinks reality tv is real and their personal choice in television/radio/print/web “journalism” is rooted the the truth … and our government is doing everything in it’s power to keep it that way. Yay, us.
Dammit… I need an editor. My proofreading skills suck as hard as my punctuation and grammar. Any aspiring citizen journalists takers out there? It’s entry-level, and I can’t pay … and I don’t really have an audience, but it’s a great opportunity and will look great on your resume. References required.
Dammit! I need and editor – my proofreading sucks harder than my grammar and punctuation. Any aspiring citizen journalists interested in the job? It’s entry-level and I can’t pay, so it’s more of an internship. And I don’t have an audience. But it would be a great opportunity and would look great on your resume. Four-year degree, resume and references required.
Sorry for the repeat … comments are loading at a snails pace, for me anyway.
Glenn, you make me want to be an investigative journalist when I grow up. I am serious. You have inspired me to look at journalism in a different light and to appreciate good journalism. I was completely ignorant of what real writing was due to the fact the mainstream media was so long my source of information as I was coming into my own (coming from a teenager into adulthood literally) and realized how biased they’re reporting truly was. Thank you for opening my eyes to true reporting, questioning what is written, but most importantly, inspiring me to want to make a difference.
This is a discussion about ownership and should therefore be a discussion about governance. And don’t get me started about private or public ownership, the most backward discussion. It’s about governance, transparent and policed and enforced governance.
I wish we could tweet individual comments,
as you can in most publication.
Is there a way, without falling into security holes?
Suggestion for the comment board: limit comments to a certain number per article. Not sure exactly how many comments would be optimal to have before there begins to be a diminishing return on the usefulness of any discussion (probably in the very low hundreds), but in my view there are too many comments so far on Intercept articles, even as I sit here as number . . . 760 (I think) for this piece.
Anyhow, Glenn’s points are well-made and well-taken, per usual, but there is a core of legitimacy orbiting the Pando commentary (not to mix metaphors) that should not be overlooked. The donation in question will not necessarily of itself undermine the independence of Intercept journalists that so far seems to be satisfactorily intact. But certainly it is something to flag and watch, to put in your pocket, so to speak, not obsessively, but with sufficient caution and appropriate scepticism. I don’t think that Glenn would deny this. The hand that gives rules after all.
Glenn,
Does Pierre Omidyar vet your pieces prior to publication?
Do you get approval for disclosures?
Will Intercept investigate the covert sponsorship of the Ukrainian destabilzation, or similar acts in other nations?
What about the evidence Pando presented liking Pierre Omidyar’s money to the coup in Ukraine?
Please, please, please read the article and the comments before asking a question on something that has already been answered, both in the original article and in the responses. Thank you.
“(2) Can someone please succinctly explain why this is a scandal that needs to be addressed, particularly by First Look journalists?”
By the standards of the media itself.
http://wattsupwiththat.com/ gets little or no money but is accused of being funded by Exxon and dismissed.
The Koch brothers, when they fund anything, your friends will dismiss any work product.
“Guilt by Association” is the current means of judging independence. Will you critize “Democracy Now” when they do EXACTLY THE SAME THING when some finding is funded by the right? I doubt it.
Kermit Gosnell ran a butcher shop called an abortion clinic. He and many of his staff were convicted of crimes. No one (I will add – either side) covered it. Would you have? I worry about what the CDC is assessing in raw data. People may die because journalists won’t report the STD pandemic and we might have a second round of AIDS where many people will die unnecessarily because of the silence of the “independent media” that refuse to state what we know is true.
Your chosen occupation now has the standard that any “journalist” is merely a mouth-piece for the propaganda and politics of the founder.
I don’t expect to find any articles here criticizing anything involving the LGBTQ community, Abortion, or any other liberal pet positions. Which is sad. Diogenese needs to continue on and look elsewhere.
If the hand that feeds you is wrong, you need to bite it. But I see no evidence you and the other lapdogs of your patron will. Or perhaps I’m wrong.
@tz … “By the standards of the media itself.” Um… media doesn’t set the standard for journalists. Media provides the avenue to express journalism (when allowed) … and with that journalists are bound by a code of ethics. Sadly, mainstream media have replaced those ethics with their own policy standards, re-branding “news” as infomercials that align with their own financial and politically advantageous agendas. In fact, Rupert Murdoch took the issue of honesty in the media straight to the Supreme Court – and won – giving broadcasters the right to lie or deliberately distort news reports on the public airwaves. But do not be mistaken – media does not set the standard for the code of ethics in journalism … It’s the so-called journalists employed by mainstream media who fail to live up the standards set by their chosen profession … are they journalists? … or are they celebrity puppets? No wonder you’re confused. I just took two seconds out to wiki this – you might find it helpful: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journalism_ethics_and_standards
There are copious amounts of articles that document instances of mainstream media failing to provide fair, let alone any, coverage, on a myriad of topics. Most of us are perfectly satisfied, if not excited and grateful, with the manner and content of journalism here. If you feel your journalistic needs aren’t being met by Glenn, or this website as a whole, maybe you should move along and google some websites that report on those interests you hold most dear. You might even find more than one. Good luck with that.
YEAH! WHAT YOU SAID!
Dear Glenn, I owe you a big apology. In my previous comment here I challenged your ignorance and cavalier attitude about not knowing the “political views and activities” of who you work for, based on questions and dubious allegations made about your employers donation as outlined in your article. I just couldn’t wrap my head around your justification for not caring even when efforts to discredit you arose because of this donation (by your new boss) and created an avalanche of criticism and skepticism about your ethics – so much so that you and The Omidyar Network felt a response was required.
I replied to another commenter and questioned, “Is any blood on money he cashes from his paycheck?”. That came directly from my own self-righteous value system … that there were absolutely no conditions possible under which I could justify anyone working for someone/any organization whose vile ideology and contemptible moral character were so were diametrically opposed. I’m not saying that’s the case between you and Omidyar, and I’m absolutely not suggesting that there was anything improper in his donation. In fact, I know now that it wouldn’t matter if there was. Even if, on the way-the-fu<k off chance, it was found to be illegal (which I feel certain in no way was).
Your nonchalance to not knowing and unapologetically not caring – and my needy whining to know that you know – that you would care – and that you do care – sent me to search to understand why it was so inconsequential for you to do your job … provided your requirement of 100% freedom and control of your content was met. I needn't look farther then an article of yours imbedded in one posted on dailykos, "Frequently told lies (FTLs)" … (link at the bottom). On the whole the article was your response to dispel several rumors and lies frequently used to discredit you. I produced and audible gasp when I got to he 2nd to last paragraph of your commentary – the sucking vacuum when I finally inhaled every last trace of the smoke I was blowing up my own ass on this subject. In it you said, "It is true that I defended the First Amendment free speech rights of white supremacists and other people with heinous views – in exactly the way the ACLU has defended the free speech rights of neo-Nazis and the Ku Klux Klan. I'm immensely proud of that work: I would do it again in an instance. Indeed, since I've began political writing, I've defended the free speech rights of all sorts of people whose views I find pernicious. Defending free speech rights typically means defending people with marginalized views because that's where free speech abridgments are typically aimed." What. The. Fu<k. ???? You were a lawyer then. I wouldn't have been able to take that statement seriously if you were still … but you're a former constitutional lawyer turned journalist. Worlds collided.
Thank you for saying what you did – and for saying it in just that way. I thought I understood the compromises and challenges faced by journalists to defend our Fifth Amendment rights. I've learned that when my self-righteous indignation is at play I will be wrong, somewhere … somehow. I admit that my education and knowledge probably places me in the low end of the arc in the critical thinking curve. But I have matured as a human being enough to admit when I'm wrong. I was so, so wrong. And I'm very sorry for it.
Very, very, very few people would -choose- to stand behind anyone whose own value system is so repugnant and morally reprehensible on every imaginable level, let alone take their money, to protect their freedom and right to be an abomination to all humanity. But not doing so is the choice between fighting for or forfeiting entirely ALL our rights and freedoms. In other words, a handful of honorable people *must* volunteer to eat a ton of shit, and profit off bloody proceeds, in order to produce the minimum amount of manure necessary to fertilize our democracy … an amount so infinitesimal – yet the lack of it would result in extinction. I have no doubt that there was some blood on those paychecks you cashed from that particular client. But I never equated the burden to the responsibility – all for the greater good. It's a high price to pay … and I'd be willing to bet you were equivalently underpaid. But in the end – It's an even trade. Except for those that reap the benefits all the while demonizing you for it. They sacrificed nothing yet got everything … and they could never begin to afford for people like you to care. No wonder you don't care to know.
So now I get it – I understand why (and am grateful) you defended them then – and I understand (even sympathize) why you don't care about your employers politics now. You aren't allowed to be a martyr or hero – but you are brave and valiant warrior in the fight, nonetheless. It certainly elevates the courage and duty required for the privilege of title "journalist". Main stream media has lowered that bar to such unfathomable levels it's beyond my mathematical comprehension to measure the negative space it's rooted in … but thanks to you I now see – and comprehend – between the two realms … and I'll really try to be more impartial, fair, and patient for those that fall within the acceptable spectrum. There are exceptions. And you are exceptional.
And I apologize to The Omidyar Network. According to Glenn, Mr. Omidyar is providing the financial means to hire more reporters, editors and legal counsel to responsibly expose all of the dirty, little secrets buried in the pages of the Snowden documents, in the shortest order possible. Do what you need to do. Thank you.
Don't even get me started on my takeaways in the lessons I learned regarding religious freedoms – but they were perhaps more profound, because I'm a believer. You were right. I was wrong. My bad. And thank you very much. You never sold your soul the devil. Hell – for all I know – you may not even believe he exists, outside our atmosphere, that is.
dailykos article:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/01/30/1182442/-Glenn-Greenwald-Responds-to-Widespread-Lies-About-Him-on-Cato-Iraq-War-and-more
Yes thank you for this. its good that Glenn has not sold himself to the devil. I would hate to see his talents restricted at one of those hierarchical and weak, other mainstream news organizations. When the truth has become marginalized by news organizations, then its great that the freedom of speech rights of the marginalized are being defended. Its great that finally a wealthy billionaire is prepared to create a major news channel which is independent, and which will ensure that the public are told the truth. It is a coup for freedom of information, for democracy and for an opportunity for transparency and honesty to create a fairer, and less corrupt society.
***cringe*** FIRST Amendment Rights… so lame!
Very good points Glenn. I’m having a hard time locating actual facts relevant to the Ukraine situation, many “mainstream” journalists are in fact mouthpieces churning out poorly re-written press releases and generally serving as parrots for unnamed official sources. So now I’ll add this outlet as a place to look for facts and opinion.
I was just poking around on the Internet today, and I came across this article published by The Guardian with the title Can Glenn Greenwald’s digital magazine The Intercept re invent journalism?
http://www.theguardian.com/media/2014/mar/02/glenn-greenwald-first-look-intercept
I think that the Guardian should be commended for adding its voice to this important debate and campaign,, and for drawing more attention to it.
I would like to add to this discussion by saying that I have always believed that reporters and news organizations biggest responsibility, is to ensure that they can report honestly, and accurately with integrity, and, without bias, and free from censorship. When reporting ,I believe that a journalist should be permitted to document truthfully what has really occurred, and to present the full picture, and all of the information, and revelations which are available without any obstacles or censorship put in his/her path.
I believe that it is evident that the traditional model of journalism is failing its readership, and its viewers, and it is now facing a crisis. This is because many people are now voicing valid concerns that the mainstream media is rapidly becoming little more than a unified voice of Government, and corporate propaganda. Things actually appear have got so bad that that news which is of public interest, but which happens to be controversial, or at odds to the views of Government can sometimes only be discovered on blogs, and in Social Media, or on websites which are far from mainstream media. It surely is the responsibility of the mainstream media to ensure that news which is of public interest gets the full exposure which it deserves and merits. News should not be being hidden away, or pushed into some dark, remote, closet areas of the Internet, with the intention that less people will discover it and read it .Many times I have seen that stories are not followed up properly to see what is going to be done about it, and on occasions news that is announced as coming, sometimes fails to be published completely. If it is the case that the truth is somehow becoming forbidden and if the unspeakable truth is that many editor owners have become too frightened to publish stories which are sometimes at odds to the beliefs of powerful and influential people. Then surely it is time for these editor/owners to be stronger, and to accept that reform of journalism is required. The state of the media is something that everyone should be very concerned about, because if we allow information to become suppressed or abridged, or restricted in its circulation or censored then effectively the public will become blind, or at best become miss- informed. The consequences of this will prove disastrous, for society as a whole, as it could easily lead to further deterioration in standards, of transparency, and accountability across corporate and Government structures.
For many years now I have been most shocked about how the mainstream media in many countries including the US, have appeared to be very selective, on how they have reported on potential war crimes, and human rights abuses. This has been more evident when journalists have had to report on accusations of war crimes which may have been committed by their own countries military.
Evidence of this is quite widespread, with video footage widely being published on YouTube, and across many Social Media websites, and I would like to provide an example in the form of a link to a video report by the independent journalist, Kevin Sites.
On November the thirteenth 2004 Kevin was working as an embedded freelance journalist in Fallujah, and he filmed a US marine shooting a wounded an unarmed combatant in a mosque. There were several other wounded Iraqis who had been shot, who were then left in the mosque overnight, and not evacuated, and he reported that these men were executed the following day. Kevin states in the following video that “nobody in America showed the full footage of the marine executing the Iraqi, and that the report failed to appear on broadcast television”.
I should warn readers of this that the video contains graphic content and viewer discretion is advised.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4j50ghDeKA
Since I do not wish to appear as being biased or only critical of the US main stream media. I want to make it clear that all across the World examples similar to this one can be found, and that American news is not in my opinion as censored, or controlled, as it is many other countries.
I think that the lives of people everywhere in this World matter, and should be valued the same,and if there are stories which need to be told, then their voices should be heard. I accept that Wars are sometimes necessary, and that the fight to protect National Security, and to prevent terrorism is very important too. I accept that the World needs democracy, and democratically elected Governments, and Corporations, and the wealthy elite. I accept that the rich and powerful will always be able to influence Government policy. I understand that these powerful corporations create wealth, opportunity, and employment, and I have no problem with any of that. What I am against is what I see as the erosion of the constitution, and the erosion of civil and human rights. I am against wars for profit, and against anything which prevents free speech, and the right of people to protest peacefully. I am against censorship or oppression of news, unless it is necessary for matters of national security.
Having been a reader of The Intercept for the last two weeks, I can see clearly that the news is reported here in exactly the way that it should be reported. It is evident from the content and subject matter of the reporting at The Intercept, that the journalists there enjoy full independence, and freedom from the constraints controls, censorship and hurdles which sadly seems to me, to damage the quality of journalism at other main stream news publishers. I also respect and read The Guardian, because it is a courageous newspaper which also seems to practice fearless reporting.
As a reader I have noted the recent attacks on The Intercept by a few journalists and people that want to try to cast doubt on the level of independence of independence that the journalists at The Intercept enjoy. They have tried to continually bombard the readers’ comments section by continually suggesting that possible there could be a conflict of interest arising from the owners past investments and business interests and activities. All I can say on this is that as a reader I really do not care if there is or is not a conflict of interest. Some people have even made what I consider to be derogatory, and unfounded remarks about the owner and journalists. They have described their investigative journalists’ style as “mud rakers” and the owner of The Intercept, as a shit shaker. All I can say on that is that if there is “shit” that needs to be shaken up or raked up then so be it. The Intercept did not make that shit or mud. At least the journalists there have shown that they are committed to revealing wrong doing , and they are not the ones who have continually just gone along with it, choosing to help conceal it, and certainly they have not been sheepish, and weak as others, that have failed to fight for the future of journalism, and the free press.
I hope that a new dawn is around the corner for journalism, and that it can be reinvented before it becomes too late. I think that this window of opportunity is closing, and that there is a lot at stake. I would like to say to those of you in charge of the mainstream media, you know who you are. Please, take a long hard look at your selves, and have a long hard think about what you are doing and what the consequences will be? Not just for your power and profits but for the lives of everyone on this planet.
Welcome to Mainstream Media, Glenn. You could have saved a few words by just telling us whether or not the remainder of Mr. Snowden’s documents are now in the custody of Mr. Omidyar.
At first I thought, “it’s such a shame Glenn Greenwald had to write this article”. By the end thought, “I’m glad Glenn Greenwald wrote this article.”
I realize this is all just a distraction, but I’m completely against governments or international corporations interfering in the politics of foreign countries — regardless of how noble their intentions or how good the groups they are supporting appear to be.
The Guardian recently published new documents from the Snowden Collection relating to the interception and use of web cam video.
Why not descibe the decision process used to discover and decide to print those documents. Did a particular person propose them and then the rest of the group discuss what should or should not be printed? Were documents relating to the subject withheld from publication? Was there consulatation beyond the journalists whose names are attached to the initial story?
By making the decision process transparent, the suspicion that influence lies behind funding ming be disspelled.
Just how much are they paying you ? Clear conspiracy of cheque book commentary going on here.
What I love about this is seeing the lengths people will go to, to ensure the discussion is shifted from the topic of gov behaviour to completely irrelevant debates.
People are really criticizing Greenwald for getting paid for his articles? lol
If people were saying, wait and see, keep your eye out for what happens after these journalists have been working under such funding, that would be understandable, commendable, necessary in fact. But to claim that they’ve already been bought and paid for? Before any evidence is seen? lol like, these people aren’t even paying attention to the journalism that’s being released. It’s ridiculous.
Why not wait? Because these journalists have in their possession information which they are not reporting on until they decide to do that, and assert that they are acting as trustees for the public who needs this information to make informed democratic decisions.
Yet there is no transparancy on how these journalists, acting for the public as trustees, actually decide what to allow the public to see.
This is not about what they might find out, it is about how they exercise a trust which they maintain on behalf of the public.
just how are they not reporting it?
how does releasing a new story, on average, every week not qualify as reporting it?
Ugh … what, pray, democratic decisions are you going to make in the next week until the next set of documents is vetted and a rational, well-substantiated story is written, that the release of said story TOMORROW would make more accurate? You should try meditation. You are worrying about things out of your purview. I don’t know who you are, but this asinine nitpicking is ridiculous. You’ve been shown that our National Security State is rotten to the core with breathtaking weekly revelations. I think the broad strokes are quite adequate for you to make your “democratic decisions” Jeebus.
You totally amaze me ! There must be a career somewhere for you in stand up comedy. How can you make such remarks, accusing The Intercept of being lacking in transparency ? We the people had zero transparency on any of these dark secrets until Edward Snowden blew his whistle, and the Intercept, and Guardian published. You say that the public need the information on how it is decided what to release and when, so that the public can make “informed democratic decisions”. Were the public given the full picture on surveillance so that they could make informed democratic decisions on which political party or individuals they should vote for? How nice of you to start to care about freedom of information, and democracy now lmao I suspect that the reality is that maybe the Government would really like to know when certain information will be released, so that responses can be planned ahead, and the impact of each revelation minimized. Why does the public need greater understanding of the internal decision making processes of how the journalists decide what the public should see ? What are you so really scared of ? Is it that you have no control over the publishing, and no way of knowing what’s going to be revealed and when, is that what is causing you pain ? You talk suggesting breach of trust, but who really broke the peoples trust ? Maybe you are just after the timescale, and some extra information so that you can plan an make informed investment decisions on the stock market, maybe short a few stocks to make yourself, or an organization you work for some big bucks ? What is it with you really ? Come on share that with all of us so that we can be better informed ? Do you really think that the readers, and journalists were born yesterday ? Please don’t insult our intelligence any further.
That is an interesting point. If it applies to The Intercept it should apply to all news outlets, especially the other ones Greenwald mentioned who also have possession of Snowden docs. So do you believe all journalists, or all news outlets, should do an immediate dump of their info. once they are in possession of it, Wikileaks-style? What are the reasons the Guardian and the NYT have not done so?
Or should there be, in the name of transparency, some kind of ordering-a-Domino’s-pizza-online type of system, where once journalists have an initial lead or facts they post them online and then post updates as the story goes through all the steps to either be published or not?
Or perhaps a system more like the passage of a bill, where the public can be apprised as it goes through the process and can have input at certain stages before the final story is released?
I am all for transparency, I’m just not sure in what way, given how complex and dynamic journalism is, a system could be implemented that would allow “transparancy on how these journalists, acting for the public as trustees, actually decide what to allow the public to see.”
That’s kind of the point, that this is information that the public should already be in possession of, yet due to corruption and greed or a sheer deluge of information, the public is not aware. Imperfect as it may be, we then must rely on whistleblowers and journalists and watchdogs to wrest what is rightfully ours back into the public sphere.
Journalistic ethics are the framework which are meant to provide integrity for this “trusteeship;” the most important thing we can do as citizens is to demand journalistic ethics and to support those who adhere to them, especially with regard to whistleblowers who are the lifeblood of the process of uncovering information that the public should know.
it’s alright to question omidyar’s motives. i think it’s actually necessary. powerful people have to be taken skeptically.
what’s out of bounds is accusing the journalists at first look of impropriety as there has been no evidence of that whatsoever. mr.greenwald, mr. scahill, ms. poitras, mr. taibbi et al let their journalism talk for itself and deserve the benefit of the doubt at the very least.
even more ridiculous is the premise that mr. greenwald or anyone else at first look should be publishing exposés on mr.omidyar. if you want to break stories about government illegality and someone offers you funding to do it, why should you shift your attention to something outside of your expertise instead of focusing on the things you wanted to do in the first place? it’s as if the whole controversy is manufactured to distract mr. greenwald et al from their work.
anyone wishing to write an exposé on mr. omidyar’s shady dealings is more than welcome to, but they shouldn’t demand people who have better things to do to do it. i wouldn’t trust anything that comes off mr. ames’ desk, though.
The trouble with your point on “independent media” is that ultimately “whoever feeds you OWNS you.” Perhaps you and your cohorts needed to stay put in your old jobs? If you work for a living as most people do, being independent and not beholden to a boss (which includes their influence and demands) is quite difficult regardless of the promises you got. Promises are so easily broken.
It also looks a bit like what the corporations did to the entities that regulated them–AKA regulatory capture. So to ordinary readers like me, it looks like you moved into the spider’s den…rather clever of them as a way to make you less of a problem.
It is rather sad really in this time where there are so few voices anyone can trust.
I concur. The world gets more confusing and the lines of trust and integrity become ever more blurred.
Today, The Omidyar Network issued a press release in response to the aforementioned article in Pand o …
http://www.omidyar.com/about_us/news/2014/03/03/our-investment-new-citizen-centre-ua
From the press release:”To date, ON’s total committed investments in Centre UA totals $1.105 MM, $335,000 in 2011 and $770,000 in 2013. This investment is part of our Government Transparency initiative and was made to amplify the voices of Ukrainian citizens and promote open and accountable government.”
There is absolutely no transparancy in the process by which the Snowden Papers are selected released or witheld.
We don’ know anyting about it at all.
@mel lino … I’m kindly asking you to please leave me out of your dialogue … You’ve been a dog with a bone regarding transparency in this thread and I respectfully disagree with you.
Omidyar is providing the financing to hire more journalists, editors and legal counsel to responsibly release more Snowden revelations. It’s not going to happen overnight. How they decide to disseminate that information is none of my business and I could care less. As for transparency of those investments you can refer to my apology to Glenn and Omidyar posted above this.
I’m afraid you’re missing the bigger picture here. No matter how much you jump up and down – what facts you cite – however many ways you choose to frame it – you are never, ever going to get the answers you are desperately trying to get to the bottom of. Never. Maybe try and accept that and move on. Farewell and peace be with you.
I have seen Mr Greenwald explain, How they were doing it about 6 times on video ,interviews ect. How they are picking the stories and what they won’t publish has been made public long ago, MOVE ON TROLL
March 3: The Omidyar Network issued a press release in response to the aforementioned article in Pand o …
http://www.omidyar.com/about_us/news/2014/03/03/our-investment-new-citizen-centre-ua
To hear the pro-coup/revolution side powerfully argued, check out today’s (Monday’s) Democracy Now! debate between Yale Professor Timothy Snyder (pro) and Ray McGovern. In two previous segments on the Ukraine, Goodman had NYU Professor Stephen Cohen on, and he was just as emphatically and eloquently anti-coup, and the more recent appearance was especially good. That was way back on Feb 20. It’s a shame Goodman didn’t have Cohen back on to duke it out with Snyder. That would have been a fascinating exchange.
I saw this show with Prof.Snyder and Ray McGovern, and I thought Snyder was either very naive or very dedicated to neocon principles. Snyder has written a book—my god, what a boring book it must be.McGovern was spot on.
Apparently, you are aiding “imperialism” Mr. Greenwald. The very very serious charge is laid out at length here: http://bit.ly/1fWGgpu
Rancid Tarcie himself, the well known anonymouse “radical” has linked to it with approval. So it must be good.
A highly snarky piece indeed. I think another automatic sign of the ad hominem additional to the sarcasm is the self-praising. This author, for example, has extensively studied “global patterns” and knows whereof he speaks.
Additionally as a sign of the snarky malefactor with his bucket of smear is the quick elision to the conclusion. It glides across like a can of spam across new ice. As with here that Omidyar funded an NGO is by default as the impeccable premise evil.
And, again, if anyone questions this premise with a could you go into this somewhat more question the chin lifts and the sneer curls forth. No, more of going into it more won’t be forthcoming because the snark must move on across his grand panoply of the evils he’s attaching to his target.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhYif4ZRqRk
A song in dedication to Grimm Gleanworld. I’m quite proud of this jaguar human.
Titonwan! kee … my heart leaps like a gazelle and soars like a hawk to see you again, sun-brother.
*if Glenn won’t give you a pencil job @ The //Intercept … i could always use a good mig&tig man./
I think the David Lindorff says it far better in his recent US hypocrisy:
“Of course there’s also the matter of the US role — overt and covert — in helping to fund and organize the mobs who ousted the elected government of Ukraine. That too was a violation of international law. For years now, the US has, through its National Endowment for Democracy, US AID, and other government and quasi-government bodies, been funneling money to anti-government groups in Ukraine (as it did also in Egypt and Russia itself, and as it is doing now in Venezuela and other countries whose leaders it opposes). The leaked tape of the U.S. Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs Victoria Nuland and the US Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt discussing how to staff the new government of Ukraine after the anticipated collapse of the elected government shows how deeply the US was involved in the undermining of the government of Ukraine. Again, this interference in another country’s political system is a horrendous violation of international law.”
http://thiscantbehappening.net/node/2172?page=1
The point being is the US doesn’t need the likes of Omidyar to fund CIA run operations to destablise the Ukraine government. They have a wealth of instruments already available to do this which are far better experienced and capable of conducting rebellions. Per the evidence on record the US was was already talking about to provide staff and resources to ensure the government could continue to function.
Mark Ames really hates Greenwald because of the fact Greenwald refuses to share the Snowden cache with anyone outside of a select circle. This really is pissing off a heap of left-wing transparency writers, groups and organisations. Take http://cryptome.org/ who breathless republish the Snowden material (and removing the renacted stuff that Greenwald and the Guardian have attempted to cover up – showing us exactly what the NSA documents are talking about. In any case they have published in addition a heap of cricitism of Greenwald about how he is basically using the Snowden material to profit immensely, not just in montary terms but in context of things like access to powerful people (do you think Omidyar would have hired Greenwald had it not been for the Snowden material?), kudos and celebration among his peers and colleagues (at least for those who can hide their intense jealousy).
Having been raised by journalists and people who produce a large amount of media I can say that they are are a jealous, angry, unhappy people. Yes Greenwald took a great personal risk to publish the Snowden material but don’t think for one second that Saint Greenwald is doing this purely for the good of humanity.
What stuff did Greenwald and the Guardian “attempt to cover up?”
Since I have a working brain I was able to figure out what the documents were talking about, even with Mr Greenwald protecting him self from some insane government attack legal or other wise and as we see, either way he gets attacked.
I think that this mud slinging is arising from jealousy, and out of fear. They have long since forgotten what true independent journalism is about, and I think they wish they could write more freely with less editorial censorship. I think that they may still be going on at the bottom of this comments page, somewhere, still flogging the dead horse, or trying to kiss some life into it. You have to feel a tad bit sad for them really. They gave it there best shot, and it failed miserably.
Pander of course is absolutely correct. With the team of journalists The Intercept has assembled, there is a strong possibility that it will produce actual journalism. This separates it from the Pandas of this world. Who cares who funds Panter? Their only function is to occupy a finite spectrum of bandwidth on the internet. It is not surprising, as they proudly proclaim, that their funders take no interest in what they produce – what is remarkable is that anyone else does.
The Intercept, however, has made a lot of people nervous. What does actual journalism look like? Journalism has been defined as something that someone somewhere wants to suppress. This sounds a bit subversive. So people are correct to question the motives of this Omidyar guy. The bread and circuses formula has worked well for several thousand years. Why mess it up by giving people actual news? The general public is liable to be quite upset if it learns what its leaders are doing. So it seems clear to me, this Omidyar is really just a shit disturber.
Apologies to Pan do. It looks like my autocorrect kicked in several times.
Another joining Pando et al today in Counterpunch–sarcasm layered plentifully . . . .
http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/03/03/glenn-greenwald-and-the-myth-of-income-inequality/
I do believe that sarcasm is the immediate big giveaway toward biased and unreliable material dripping with impotence and rage. There is a difference between sarcasm and irony, possibly at times difficult to see.
A key distinction is that irony is playful, finding the (even possibly amusing) contradictions in something, as with the way it exhibits its complete opposite, whereas sarcasm distorts toward this purpose and mainly seeks to injure, to lacerate, and comes with a heavy dose of suppressed snarling. It is not thought, but pure rancor.
Now, as to angry and sarcastic statements here in the comments these are obvious unabashed expressions of serious impatience. There is a difference between a brief sarcastic comment (which may be called for and the only possible recourse) versus the sustained use of sarcasm to drive an essay into the ad hominem reams and stir in the devil’s pot . . .
.
Think how nervous they would be if more billionaires came forth, dedicated to more shit disturbing, as with offering financial support and protection to a “whistle blowers come forth!” program, wherein more insiders could find sanctuary for telling us what they know . . .
STORY: How Covert Agents Infiltrate the Internet to Manipulate, Deceive, and Destroy Reputations.
Comments closed for this item (message when trying to post).
Therefor as to me and many other commenters an as important story as this: just found this link in the twitter section from this site, the other two from name mentioned during the hour long talk:
Interesting theories on how to “improve” NSA surveillance:
http://boingboing.net/2014/03/01/trustycon-how-to-redesign-nsa.html
Seny Kamara Research:
http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/senyk/
Research Blog:
http://outsourcedbits.org/
Thanks Glenn, another one punch knock out round with spurious self proclaimed “journalists.”
It is refreshing to have a team of true professional journalists exposing the inane and dangerous Hyperbole of our and many of the Governments around the word.
“Are Chris Hayes and Rachel Maddow responsible for all the bad acts of Comcast, which owns MSNBC, or is their journalism impugned by those bad acts”
Not necessarily, but it does raise the question of how to explain the apparent conflict of interests of these “oligarchs” in funding both side of the debate. Perhaps it suggests that they like to do so because it ultimately gives them control of how the debate evolves and what results from it. If they control both sides of the debate, and we look at the results of the debate, we can perhaps get an idea of where they want it to go. So far, nothing has changed in any fundamental way as a result of any “whistle blowing”.
Hey guys, notice the nutty people talking about “being tortured with energy weapons” and such?
Yeah, those all probably work for the US government’s propaganda arm. They’re trying to discredit the discussion by acting like schizophrenics. Next time one pops up, you know what to do.
Actual people are actual people.
Dismissing others because they’re not like you — or worse, suspecting others because they’re different — seems a bit arrogant and unfair.
Difference is healthy.
Due to Glenn and his current associate’s many successes, I’m sure we’ll find many VERY ADEPT and VERY ENVIOUS wordsmiths out there by virtue of their chosen profession.
Thanks to Mona for pointing out Mark Ames motiivation
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/03/01/journalistic-independence/#comment-6940
It’s sad how many people follow the piper to their demise. I think this jealousy based motivation is an important and very unfortunate factor that we the readers of all of these “revealing” articles need to keep in mind. The articles themselves rarely reveal the clues. For me at least, it’s a missing piece to the logic puzzle.
Glenn and those at First Look have a rare opportunity to say what needs to be said without much fear of being taken off the air or fired from their publication. It’s a place where integrity trumps the Company and I’m sure it’s a place where most true journalists have always wanted to be before they are forced to read what the teleprompter tells them to read.
Very well put.
*I would niggle with your description of Ames’ criticisms and arguments as “VERY ADEPT”. His ‘scoop’ that Pierre invested ‘hand in glove’ w/ the U.S. gov. to undermine Ukraine is, imo, not a good faith argument, and the implication that Pierre has (bought) “exclusive access to NSA secrets” he pulled right out of his ass.
Eric Wemple from the Washington Post chimed in on the back and forth between Greenwald and Pando’s Mark Ames and Paul Carr. Wemple provides what I believe is pretty level-headed critiques of both sides.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2014/03/03/glenn-greenwald-pandodaily-tussle-over-ukraine-editorial-independence/
Nah, that’s a poor effort by Wemple.
“Greenwald, Scahill and their colleagues at First Look are radical transparentists, and they shove that credential in the face of anyone who questions why they would publish official secrets. Consistent with such a worldview would be a statement simply stating all of Omidyar’s projects, interests and investments, regardless of whether they surfaced in long-ago press releases.”
There he’s failing to make the crucial distinction between public and private. Greenwald has always made it clear that he favors maximizing transparency for government and public entities and officials, while maximizing privacy for everyone and everything else, especially private citizens.
And this —
“And it concerns a media outlet committed to ditching the way establishment enterprises do business. Establishment enterprises often don’t address stuff, so just respond and move on. Respond to Pando because Pando asked.”
— is just silly nonsense. Does Pando deserve special treatment because they published another shitty hit piece on Greenwald? Or is Greenwald supposed to respond (disclose) to anyone who asks just because they asked. It’s nonsense.
This was the bit I rejected:
That decided me (I’d been ambivalent) that Glenn should have ignored the Ames piece, as he usually does the bullshit emanating from there. By replying, Glenn made this topic a thing.
Glenn shouldn’t reply to Ames, Levine or Carr, *because they are Ames, Levine and Carr.
Another reason why that should be held to from here on out is not only what a trashy piece that one was, but how Carr&co were on twitter within about an hour, not only claiming that an hour – and counting – defined a shameful, guilty “non-response” from not just Glenn, but even all other writers from The Intercept or First Look because they hadn’t ‘come out of some hidey-hole’ to give Carr&co their award of attention. The game that was being played up by Carr&co on twitter was in the ditch and off the cliff. It’s probably continuing to trundle down till it hits the bottom of the canyon.
If I were in Glenn’s shoes, I would have done the exact same thing. Respond. Adversarial journalism is the credo of the Intercept after all, and GG’s forte. Although Pando raised some valid points, it had quite a lot of hyperbole and falsehoods (e.g. GG and Poitras’ ‘exclusive’ access to leaks) that I’m not suprised he wanted to address. It was also ridiculous that Pando was tweeting that GG hadn’t responded within single-digit hours, implying that he had been hit with some devastating scoop and was supposed to just drop everything to respond.
And I don’t think this matter is much of a thing. Outside of the Wemple post, I have not seen much coverage, nor do i think this is building up Pando’s credibility. For me, it has only informed me of its existence.
Well, what got me about this same bullet point in the Wemple article is that it’s, uh, pretty generous to Carr, to say the least. Pando didn’t “ASK” … they put forth a set of risible postulations, then demanded explanations NOW and pouted in their anxiety ridden sweat-stinking corner of the internet until they got their response. And maybe, just maybe, the intimation of oh-isn’t-it-so-logical that Glenn couldn’t possibly be independent could carry some water if Glenn were some kind of newbie. But the man now has a near decade long track record of being exactly as independent as he claims. Carr and his ilk are talentless swine. Just one man’s opinion…..
Agreed. “But the man now has a near decade long track record of being exactly as independent as he claims.”
>”Glenn shouldn’t reply to Ames, Levine or Carr, *because they are Ames, Levine and Carr.”
For some reason, all this talk about ‘journalistic independence’ reminds of the time Dick Cheney went bird hunting and shot his hunting companion in the face … the point being even in a contest between man and bird, the outcome is not certain.
Privacy for the process used to choose documents and the timing of the release of those documents can’t be justified as a protection for *individual* privacy.
For example, it is a common tactic in electoral politics to release information that is damaging to a candidate or political party immediately prior to election day–too late to answer–in order to influence the outcome.
Will this tactic be employed by the “Snowden Consortium” in November in the US or at an opportune moment in other electoral democracies?
I’d like to know that, and somehow believe I am entitled to know on the basis of a pricinciple of democratic transparency.
Greenwald, Poitras and Scahill weren’t born the day you became aware of their existence. If you are as ignorant as you pretend to be, why don’t you try spending a few days bringing yourself up to speed instead of making an ass of yourself asking one ignorant question after another?
@mel lino
I’m not saying you didn’t really think this through, but isn’t the reason to release information immediately prior to election day because the information is not true, and there will be no time to prove the information false.
It seems like a really stupid idea to have true information that would sink a candidate’s chances and wait until the last possible moment to use it when it will have the least effect on the election and the least amount of credibility.
On second thought, I am going to say you didn’t really think this through.
Your off topic point about elections is not what I responded to. I responded to your assumption, based on your ignorance, that Greenwald, Poitras and Scahill might play that game. As I said, do your homework and then maybe you can “think through” what you post instead of just bouncing around like an manic pinball.
Time to reply gives time to make up something plausible in respose as well as time to refute a false claim. The undecided voter on election day (often 3-4) would be most likely to be the target of a dramatic revelation.
Tactics aside, I would want to know that a decision process for the release of sensitive and attention getting information was not one that provided the power for a release timed to influence an election or other poll, such as, for example, the vote on Scotland’s independence.
@mel lino
So your definition of journalism is publicly providing information that could not possibly influence an election or poll.
I think you are looking for something like Good Morning America or SportsCenter.
Although I’m assuming we could have real journalism in non-democratic countries.
“Privacy for the process used to choose documents and the timing of the release of those documents can’t be justified as a protection for *individual* privacy.”
No, but First Look is a private entity (read what I wrote again). Your “principle of democratic transparency” can apply only to public (governmental) entities. A democratic government is supposed to be, by definition, of, and by, and for the people. It directly follows that a democratic government will attempt to maximize transparency. This doesn’t apply to businesses and organizations in the private sector. It is perfectly appropriate for them to keep whatever secrets they wish. In response, you can decide to withhold your business and/or association. That’s a choice you can’t make with regard to the government.
As I said, this distinction between public and private is crucial. When Wemple argues that Greenwald & Co. should disclose “all of Omidyar’s projects, interests and investments” because they are “radical transparentists”, he is failing to understand how Greenwald would define the term “transparentist”. But this failure of Wemple’s is inexcusable because Greenwald has always been very clear about it.
I really disagree with the claim you make. The Snowden Consortium is said to be serving the public interest in its role as trustee for the documents taken from intelligence agencies. As a trustee for the public, they owe the public transpanency on the decision process they use to provide the documents.
Right now there is no transpanency and that is not good for confidence in the process–that it is not intended to be used like money to influence elections or other public decisons making.
I’m Ok with the patron deciding what to make public, but not with the claim that the Snowden Consortium is a private entity (because not a government) and does not need to provide transparency on how it decides what to release, when to realise it and what to keep for the eyes of the snowden Consortium alone.
@barncat
I was going to post this reply in the previous thread, but it has now been closed.
barncat wrote:
“The question is what is it that converts a number of initially distinct and isolated individuals into a “group”?”
This question got my mind racing, and this post is going to be a mess because I have no idea where it is going.
OK, so I want to think about the different types of groups we can have. We can have self defined groups and groups that are imposed upon us. We can also have groups that we self identify with and groups that we self negate. Groups that we self negate would be groups that we treat as an enemy.
We can mix and match between the two categories. In other words, we could self identify with a group that we created or self identify with a group imposed upon us. Or we could negate a group we created or negate a group imposed upon us.
Now in my mind how we relate to these groups–how we create, accept, negate, impose upon, and have these groups imposed upon us gets to the heart of some seriously deep shit about the human psyche.
I think a key thing about groups is that an individual’s understanding and definition of groups and also how they relate to these groups is so deeply personal that we might as well be using the word “god” instead of “group”. At best these things can be communicated as metaphor.
One of the things I am fascinated with is the idea that some groups require an enemy. Not just members vs. non-members, but people that can never be members. For example, the idea that we cannot be both a democrat and a republican at the same time. Like matter and anti matter the two can never touch.
So I want to add another column to the matrix, and introduce groups that require enemies and groups that don’t. Sports teams require enemies and a barn raising doesn’t.
I think we have enough combinations that I can start make moral differentiations between different types of groups. These are just my subjective feelings based on philosophy and personal aspirations for myself and humankind.
The best groups are self defined, self identified groups that don’t require enemies. The worst groups are externally imposed, self negated groups that require enemies.
An example of the former would be a barn raising or pot luck dinner, and an example of the latter would be an opposition political party.
The difference between a self negated group that doesn’t require an enemy vs. one that does would be, for example, a group of people that associated together to legalize pot. In their minds they would create a self negated enemy consisting of real and imagined people that opposed legalizing pot, but the end goal is to convert those people to their cause. The end goal is that the group would disappear because everyone became a member. Whereas with a political party the goal of the party is to continue to exist, not to convert the enemy to their way of thinking. Without the enemy the party would not exist.
So going back to your question momentarily, one of the things necessary to convert a number of initially distinct and isolated individuals into a “group” is division and exclusion. We find it very hard to see a group consisting of everyone as a group at all.
Back to my rambling, another column to the matrix. Groups with formal hierarchy and formal membership lists, and groups with informal hierarchy and informal membership lists. The former might be states or corporations and the latter might be an internet discussion forum. The morality of each could go either way depending upon the situation. They both have advantages and disadvantages.
I want to write about how we can impose groups upon other people both as enemies or as allies, but it is time to wrap this up for now.
To finally answer your questions:
“The question is what is it that converts a number of initially distinct and isolated individuals into a “group”?”
Evolutionary advantage + division and exclusion + will to power + loneliness + the magic of imposed/common morality = a group
(I know it’s a crappy answer, especially considering the buildup but for now it’s all I got.)
“Do all individuals have to freely and explicitly claim membership, positively identify as members of the group?”
For good groups–Yes. For bad groups–No.
“Is it really possible to meaningfully speak of a mega-group of 310 million (freely associating) individuals?”
Yes. Groups are as much aspiration and ascension (groups are god) as they are a bunch of people building a barn, and in that sense we can dream of and envision very large groups of freely associating individuals.
Wow! That’s a pretty amazing first pass at a complete theory of human social groups. Your concept of self-negated groups is elegant:
“The difference between a self negated group that doesn’t require an enemy vs. one that does would be, for example, a group of people that associated together to legalize pot. In their minds they would create a self negated enemy consisting of real and imagined people that opposed legalizing pot, but the end goal is to convert those people to their cause. The end goal is that the group would disappear because everyone became a member.”
So, the self-negated group is formed with the intention of achieving its own demise. Nice!
I think you’re unnecessarily hard on groups that “require enemies”, though. You use sports teams as an example, but clearly the term “enemy” doesn’t have the same meaning in the context of sports and games generally as it does in politics, especially geopolitics. That same paragraph continues:
“Whereas with a political party the goal of the party is to continue to exist, not to convert the enemy to their way of thinking. Without the enemy the party would not exist.”
Right. In theory, political parties in a democratic system are not mortal enemies that wish to annihilate each other. Rather, disagreement and dissent are understood to be essential (free individuals will always have disagreements), and productive. — Actually, as I’m writing, it occurs to me that this right here goes back to the original question. When political parties do start to think and behave as if they are mortal enemies (which isn’t exactly what’s happened in the US), that implies the loss of the “WE” I was talking about. It’s that particular group — the one with 300 million involuntary members — that I was asking about. I quoted you here:
“We will lay stagnant for a generation compared to the growth we would have achieved … because of the actions of the NSA and our current leadership …”
So, you were thinking of “we”, the US, right? “Our current leadership”…
Like I said, your comment is an impressive first attempt at a general theory of groups, but it’s much more than I want to try to hash out in this forum. I believe the question I posed is more narrow, and gets to the heart of the debate with the Libertarians. They pretty much explicitly deny the reality of this “we”. On this point, I don’t think they are being unreasonable. You wrote:
“‘Is it really possible to meaningfully speak of a mega-group of 310 million (freely associating) individuals?'” Yes. Groups are as much aspiration and ascension (groups are god) as they are a bunch of people building a barn, and in that sense we can dream of and envision very large groups of freely associating individuals.
Eh. I’ll just throw out my answer, which I’m not fully ready to argue:
A political group is formed at the moment that two or more individuals occupy the same physical space. As soon as we are together in the same physical space — as soon as our paths are bound to cross — all the fundamental questions of politics arise, perhaps most fundamentally, how will the physical space We share be “shared”.
But it is not simply the public versus the private sector, and based on GG’s articles it is quite clear that he values transparency in his journalism – because he endlessly includes links to what he is talking about so you can see where he is coming from. Now, I don’t think they need to post all of Omidyar’s projects online, but it would be a best practice for Intercept reporters to at least be aware of his outside projects so they can disclose any potential conflict of interest matters, should they arise.
There is only one issue for me that I wish GG and Snowden would be more transparent about. And that is the number of documents Snowden took, and the number of documents Snowden leaked to Greenwald/Poitras/McEwen. It is part curiosity and part skepticism of Snowden’s claims that he vetted all the documents. We already know there are 50k-60k GCHQ records, but not the total NSA/GCHQ amount.
GG & C0. (the Snowden Consortium) are not clearly limited to the three people you name since other journalists and other unspecified people in contact with Snowden are involved.
The Snowden Consortium can’t credibly claim to be a trustee for the public if it does not disclose its decison process– how it decides to release or withold a document and just when to do that. Is there a meeting of principals and a vote? Does anyone have a veto?
Thank you Nate. I just read the piece and it raised some compelling questions that nagged at me. Personally, I have kicked myself for finding myself in the uncomfortable position of realizing my paycheck came from people whose conflicting (and sometimes illegal) ideologies were exposed through boardroom business directives and decisions, despite whatever corporate culture they purported to represent. More often than not, I was to blame for not being more cognizant of the subtle hypocrisies that arose during the course of my employment, or at the very least, not doing my homework before choosing to work for them. Hindsight is 20/20, and as the old saying goes, “If I knew then what I know now…” As much as I hate to say it out loud, I am finding Glenn’s disinterest in who he collects his paycheck from as willful ignorance. Sorry Glenn. Because, if we are to believe that Edward Snowden is a hero (and I believe he is) for being brave enough to blow the whistle and trade all his privilege, comfort and happiness for the total upheaval and uncertainty in every aspect of his life and entire future – in exchange for his patriotic duty of enlighten US to what he discovered about his employer and our government was doing TO US – then, in my mind, I would think that Glenn would be wildly diligent in knowing exactly who he was working for – so his defense for doing so would justify his why’s – and hold up to scrutiny. It’s not enough to cover your ears, eyes and mouth so you can deny any evil. Unfortunately, by Glenn saying he didn’t research the funding of First Look and that he could care less it puts in him a precarious position … because it begs the question – Is any blood on money he cashes from his paycheck? It would go a long way with Glenn’s followers if he (with First Look) defended the contributions called out in the original article. Otherwise, he might find himself sitting on one whistle, while blowing on another. And the fallout from that would be catastrophic, not only for him – but for any future Snowden revelations.
Good post El B. But I don’t know if I’d read too far into this. On one hand, I wonder if GG regrets his comment about not being interested into Omidyar’s background. It sounded worse than I think he intended, but on the other hand, I can see his point. I cannot even imagine that Omidyar is dictating what GG writes about. If anything, GG is running the show and is the template for what Omidyar expects from contributing journalists. Also GG’s body of work indicates to me that he is not someone that is willing to tow a bosses line; he is a pretty damn defiant and just had the scoop of a lifetime. The ball is in his court. But time will tell – will his message or tone change over time? I highly doubt it.
I’m a bit torn on this. While the Omidyar funding thing may raise legitimate questions and increase skepticism (to me it’s clearly not a very big deal) I don’t really subscribe to the general notion that just because Omidyar has outside interests that ended up being parallel to the USG, that the Intercept reports should have to report on it or turn down this venture. Now, if the writers had spent time critiquing the Ukraine matter, that would be different because it would be a conflict of interest, at least in appearance. But that’s not the case as they haven’t reported on that at all.
You raise a good point. I’d hope that even though this matter was raised by – what appear to be – rabid opponents at Pando, that GG look past the heatedness of their criticism and has a sit down with the boss and they put all the info. on the table so if any perceived or actual conflicts of interests occur, the journalists can disclose it.
Thank you Nate. I don’t know how to make your quotes enlarge and italicize – so forgive my clunky efforts to respond to all of your comments at once.
I get your point – you pick your battles when you work for someone, as the employer does in return, too. It’s a two-way-quid-pro-quo. Glenn’s only battle, thus far, has been total freedom and control of his content. It’s been inconsequential who he works for so long as it meets those goals specifically.
I suppose if Edward Snowden followed the same lead he’d be sipping Mai Tai’s with his beautiful girlfriend, their toes in the sand – because it was his best interest to go to work, shut up, do what they told him, collect his paycheck, go home, repeat. Or simply quit and work somewhere that didn’t challenge his morals to “do the right thing” and blow the whistle. If he had never questioned WHO he was working for none of what he was doing would have mattered. Edwards battle was with his conscience – in knowing what his employers were doing was so very wrong, and not only did he need to stop working for them, he needed to expose them. He couldn’t NOT expose them. His goal was telling the truth and getting out alive, even if it meant losing everything, which it did – but he saved his values. I doubt his goal become an infamous and exiled whistleblower, Enemy #1 in the eyes of many in his home country, including it’s President and administration /SLASH/ Nobel Peace Prize nominee and hero of privacy rights and democracy. But everything that Snowden did, and why he did it, and all the outrage it stirred, was all twisted up BECAUSE of who his employer was.
Like it or not, Glenn and his team upped the ante when they took possession of Snowden’s documents and began pulling everyones pants down … to not expect their own pants to be pulled down – including anyone they associate with – for the rest of their lives – especially employers – is just naive … to not care, arrogant. The fact is they are all now held to a higher standard for moral integrity and character … and set the lowest of bars for their adversaries, who will continue to dig holes in every effort to push them down farther and farther. They are going to have to learn to live with attacks like this, and I’m sure this is mild compared with what wrath I think they still have yet to face. So – that’s why I’m surprised that Glenn is so nonchalant about not following the money.
Please don’t misunderstand – I support and admire Glenn, Laura & Jeremy, to the tips of my toes. I believe in them and the values their journalistic integrity represents. I don’t expect perfection, and I expect there will be mistakes – hey, we’re all human, and I understand that. But what I don’t want to see happen is to have all their hard work, and all the work yet to be, all the revelations yet see the light of day, be hampered or halted entirely because of their own negligence or lack in due diligence – or some cavalier notion that it doesn’t matter – in WHO they work for and why. Because understanding exactly who THEY work for speaks volumes as to what their employers motives are behind those pesky, little paychecks. That is Glenn, Laura’s and Jeremy’s new battle. May the odds be ever in their favor – Srsly!
@El B
“Is any blood on money he cashes from his paycheck?”
I’m not sure that “blood money” is a meaningful concept for Greenwald. That’s exactly the question I’d like to put to him.
I suppose he will say that no money is perfectly clean, and to insist on such a thing would result in nothing but paralysis. I suppose he would regard it as a form of moral self-indulgence. But, in almost all (if not all) of these cases, the absolute position is found to be a diversion, and the question comes down to where is the line? Is there a limit to how tainted the money can be before it is rejected?
To say there is no line — all money will be accepted regardless of the source — is to reject the meaningfulness of the term. In this case, there is no such thing as “blood money”. Maybe Greenwald believes this! The argument he makes here suggests it’s a real possibility.
Another possibility is that if the concept and the existence of the line are accepted, the calculation — the balancing — becomes hopelessly complex. Another road to paralysis. This is another (legitimate) way of invalidating the concept.
My guess is that Greenwald’s position on “blood money” is one of those two.
@Barncat … Thank you for your comment. I am a huge fan of Glenn, Laura and Jeremy and truly want to see them succeed as journalists. The point of my question was to try and elicit some sort of reasoning behind the monies being called into question. I accept that it’s entirely possible (and I pray) that Pierre Omidyar’s contributions have reasonable, if not honorable, intentions behind them. Our governments contribution? Not so much – I’m sure theirs was politically strategic in some way, shape, or form – but hey, if it’s for a good cause then it’s merely coincidental, and I have no problems with any of it.
Even if my own ideologies don’t mesh with those behind the donation, I can agree to disagree … but in this case I want to know what Omidyar’s are – and I want to know that Glenn knows them too. There is a lot riding on the motivations behind it. Then, maybe, it can all just be chalked up to sour grapes from a couple of hacks or a JTRIG fail. My curiosity and the thinking behind my reference to “blood money” goes more to my previous reply above to @Nate. It was a metaphor, maybe a bad one at that. I don’t want to be redundant in my comments, so I’ll point you in the right direction.
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRHHHHHHHHHHH PPPEEEEEESHHHSHSHSHSHSHHSHSSHSHHSHSSSS…………Crash and Burn
Joseph, yes I will just shut up and ignore you, because that is what I believe everybody else should do. Then with a bit of luck you and others that want to prolong this trivia will also shut up. I understand the article, but as I said I don’t really believe that its some massive issue at all. To me, and to many other readers it is just a smear, and an attempt to cast doubt on the independence of the journalists reporting within The Intercept. I cant see any hidden agenda, or real conflict of interest that would concern the readership. I am hoping now that tomorrow we will be able to read, some real. top quality investigative journalism in The Intercept. I am hoping too that you, and all the others that seem obsessed with what hardly appears a major scoop will have given it a rest.
I’ve posted a navigating tip for how to get a comment in its proper position, should you want to.
Mister, I’m just amazed at your laziness. Show me the rebuttal to the two examples from the linked piece to prove to me that these issues have already been resolved–maybe they have. But where?
1) Omidyar is working for the Charter School movement and against education
2) Omidyar is trying to over-ride the people of Kauai by building rich people’s mansions
This is my last to you.
I am totally shocked and over whelmed at the gravity of your revelations ! They are clearly so serious that the eyes of the worlds media should be on them, and not discussing the crisis in Ukraine. I don’t know why all this interest in the Snowden revelations, when Omiidyar is actually” building rich peoples mansions”. Oh my God !! And supposedly he is against education. Really ? That is why he has invested in an independent online news company which actually does educate its readership !! And yes I am lazy f…..cker or whatever other insult you wish to throw. Maybe you think I am also a “rabied lefty” Thank God I wont be hearing from you again, and I hope that everyone else will be as fortunate.
Their Ukrainian Invasion Plan is being disputed by the public,so they are trying to influence public opinion over the net.Well it’s at least one reason,.Ah, the psyche of the crazy wacko warmongers who point out the way to the front lines for the untermenschen to follow(of course not themselves),and whose bloviators are batting about .001 in their predictions,but still retain their positions,leads one to an obvious conclusion,the fix is in,has been and will be,until we wake up to the fact that the future these clowns represent,is not civilization,but feudalism,we will suffer the consequences of strife,religious conflict,and energy and economic wars,that benefit US nil, in the foreseeable future.
To be honest with you, I believe that the US and UK Governments will try to settle the dispute through lengthy diplomacy. I do not believe that the US and UK have an invasion plan, and It seems at least from the UK press that going to war is not being discussed. There has been war mongering in the past, but lets hope that a diplomatic solution to this crisis can be found.I certainly do not want to see any further wars, and I want to see a peaceful solution.
Glenn, you’re a darn good journalist, but don’t alienate 1/2 your readers by implying voting for Romney was some sort of crime. With the job Obama has been doing, and the fact that these days the parties are basically the same group of ruling class tyrants, I hardly think it’d make that much of a difference in who was POTUS.
Concentrate on the facts – you’re good that – and keep ’em comin’.
The following website comes from a commenter referring to his blog for another attack on Omidyar:
http://libcom.org/library/pierre-omidyar-giving-until-it-hurts
This piece attacks Omidyar, as with (for just 2 examples) he’s supporting the Charter School and ruination of education movement now in progress.
And he’s trying to finance the building of expensive homes on Kauai against the wishes of the poorer people there, and completely ignoring them and essentially rolling over their interests.
Overall the portrait of Omidyar is he’s a right-leaning Libertarians and GG and the staff of The Intercept have been gulled due to the narrowness of their focus on civil liberties.
The primary modus operandi of “reasoning” here is (again) sweeping charges with a “just go to this link and draw your conclusions” approach being the primary modus operandi of “the argument.”
There is no attempt to follow a specific charge of malfeasance with a possible defense of this position followed by the best, most rational conclusion in looking at both sides.
So, again, what it amounts to is a lot of slurs, and I will use the word paranoia again . . .
Overall, the argument in this link fits in with other negative commenting throughout the comment thread since Saturday Mar 1—
One more suggestion: the eBay and Paypal charge continues as with the yap yap yap of the pit bull next door despite all the discussion, whereas I believe that has already been dealt with.
(My understanding is that Omidyar had left management of the offending organizations prior to this problem and guilt-by-association sort of reasoning.)
But maybe it needs to be dealt with once more???? Maybe not. There must come a time when one shuts the door and tunes out the yap yap yap of the pit bull.
Still, perhaps a statement from Mr. Omidyar on the points brought up in this article?
Maybe a list of the accusations made in this linked piece could be responded to briefly . . . ?
One more point: a lot of folks are assuming that because their comments “disappear” or ‘won’t post” they’re being monitored, but IMV the problem is the comment system itself which is so slow it can’t walk and chew gum at the same time, with the result one must continually close the site and try to access it again, even several times, to verify the comment has appeared. So it’s slowness, not some evil moderator exercising his left-wing bias and being nasty (“paranoia strikes deep . . .” I can’t this song out of my mind whenever I’m here trying to read comments!)
Pit bull lol more like an annoying poodle. I am sure that Omidyar has far more important things to do, other than to respond to this pathetic mud slinging. You really should try to get a life, or to get out more. You never know, you might even find something of substance to report out there to report on, which might actually be of interest to the public. This entire attempt at smearing Glenn is boring me. In fact its so boring that even watching my goldfish swimming round is more exciting !. Yawn, yawn, you are sending me to sleep.
It’s boring me too, Mister. Once again you seem to have misunderstood me. I’m referring to an attack on Omidyar, the latest one I can find. It’s NOT my attack. Take a little more time with your reading, and do look at the piece linked.
In my view the matter is not yet quite settled. That’s why I have “belabored” it here.
No I have not misunderstood you at all, because whilst I accept it may not be your attack, you are still prolonging it. with further commentary. Of course you have a right to do that but I am just expressing that I am totally bored of hearing about the subject, and would like to move on. I genuinely believe that its not worthy of any more time or further responses.
The specific issue this article by GG addressed is “On the meaning of journalistic independence.”
His position has been attacked again and again in the comments following over the days.
This is the core concern of this article and discussion, which we have been trying to deal with
With respect, if you’re bored don’t interfere with the discussion like this. Simply shut up. The issue is not yet resolved. If it is resolved show me where that is.
Point me specifically to where these latest charges, which I have linked to above, have been dispelled. And I will be grateful.
Otherwise, please. Why are you behaving like this merely because you are bored? It suggests you never understood what the issue was in the first place.
if there’s no reply function to a post go back to the most recent REPLY button and post with it. Your comment will then fall into its proper place in the discussion.
I’m curious, Joseph – you seem more involved and less reactive than some of the other posters here *cough mel ling cough* regarding transparency for the Snowden docs and any conflicts of interest regarding taking Pierre Omidyar’s money and continuing to do objective, adversarial journalism.
What would it take to resolve this in your eyes?
I don’t know whether Omidyar describes himself as a libertarian, but those making these attacks have convinced themselves he is. So they believe his agenda is to undermine the legitimacy of the state, and that Glenn Greenwald, as a zealous exposer of the truth, will – wittingly or unwittingly – be assisting him to accomplish this goal.
So no matter how much Greenwald protests his independence, these critics will persist in seeing him as either complicit or as a dupe and in either case, advancing a political agenda they fundamentally oppose.
The reason these attacks are so shrill is the attackers must otherwise confront the fact they would prefer the misdeeds of government remain hidden. They rationalize this by reasoning that weakening of government authority would open the path to even greater abuses by private enterprises. So in their view, Greenwald has joined the enemy camp and must be discredited. Thus to them, his association with Omidyar is to be condemned ipso facto. So they don’t really care what Greenwald says, or what controls he institutes to ensure journalistic independence.
I think this partisan attitude is passé and the future will be built on alliances of convenience. So I say: reveal the truth and let the cards fall where they may.
Yes, Common ‘T, this insight is very helpful to understanding the “shrillness” and the persistence of these attacks, and part of the difficulty of trying to separate out responses in what seems a fractured left.
As indicated by GG it doesn’t matter what the funding source is and all the supposition of compromise is not supportable.
I call that supposition of compromise “paranoia.”
Nevertheless, unless I’ve missed the proper rebuttal to the piece I linked above–here it is again if you need it–
http://libcom.org/library/pierre-omidyar-giving-until-it-hurts
–this piece in concert with the other attacks leaves the impressions that GG et al are in over their heads with sinister manipulative forces.
Now, along with accusations of tainted wealth (which we could reply to with well that doesn’t matter as long as the reporting is truthful) the insinuation is that not only GG et al are being manipulated but also so are all the rest of us dumb-fuck liberal types who are so frequently thanking him for his work.
We can live with both of these (Omidyar is using his wealth in a sinister manner; and Omidyar is trying to corrupt and manipulate GG et al and commenters here somehow) as paranoid conspiracy theory and automatically dismiss it.
My question is should there be something more said on it? Maybe, maybe not. I was hoping for some feedback and sane consideration of this and then I got Mister in high dudgeon for asking the question.
I mean further clarification as with a statement from Omidyar himself.
But possibly (and I understand all the fatigue) this moment, and this particular forum, is not the place to take it any further.
Common ‘Tater nails it:
mark ames’ personal vendetta against glenn is so vile, depraved, repugnant and petty that i am not at all interested in anything his site produces any more. i can’t remember the last time he’s written anything of substance: must have still been at the exile.
Perhaps Greenwald might want to take a little more interest in the source of his checkbook journalism.
Go back in your hole troll. Nobody here is listening to you. Go watch the latest Anonymous videos.
Remember, if you deny free speech to trolls, eventually it will lead to curtailment of your own freedom of expression. We trolls may indeed be sadists and psychopaths, but that is no reason for you take pleasure in inflicting pain on us with your derisive dismissals.
Perhaps you should address that remark to the mainstream media, and those pathetic weak sheep that have sold themselves out and become to become corporate and Government propaganda machines. Some people have ethics and strength, and are happy to stand up against pathetic little w..kers like you. So go f…ck yourself and tell whoever is bankrolling you to go and do the same.
Stonewalling? Not hardly. More like blind acceptance.
Glenn, I got about 3 paragraphs into this article when I began to wonder if the Twitter heat you’re getting on this subject is, in fact, you getting punked by JTRIG. The fact that you have been attacked from every direction and your credibility has been called into question over something that is so trivial, petty and transparent seems to have been taken out of their playbook. To quote you: “Among the core self-identified purposes of JTRIG are two tactics: (1) to inject all sorts of false material onto the internet in order to destroy the reputation of its targets; and (2) to use social sciences and other techniques to manipulate online discourse and activism to generate outcomes it considers desirable.”
I usually appreciate the variety of different voices expressed in the comments sections – however, today, a certain troll seems to have made you a project. Again, to me this smacks of the OCA objective to “disrupt”. Although, if the GCHQ actually pays trolls like this one I’d venture to guess that it’s the chimp laughing all the way to the bank. Well played, chimp. Fail GCHQ/JTRIG.
As a side note, given the findings of the recent study about the psychology of internet trolls – I’d have to say – it speaks volumes about an entire institution that would employ such tactics, and the fact that deeply disturbed psychosis is a pre-requisite.
If I am right about this, then the compliment would be one of the motivations of trolls: “The more beautiful and pure a thing is, the more satisfying it is to corrupt.” But hey, I’m no expert – and I admit I could be way off base – but the coincidence hardly seems random. If I am wrong, I apologize to the chimp – it must simply be that you do this to satisfy your disturbed, compulsive urges, and I urge you to seek the assistance of a mental health professional as you are dangerously close to a psychotic break. I can’t apologize if I am wrong about GCHQ/JTRIG … these tactics paint a bigger picture of their cult of personality. SMDH.
Glenn, I genuinely appreciate your sincerity and earnest in coming clean on this – and all the commenters defending and supporting you. Your journalistic integrity, bravery, and courage is evident. I apologize for not reading the rest of your article … but I didn’t need to, this time. We’re cool.
p.s. this is the article I quoted about internet trolls being narcissistic, psycopathic, sadists: http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/climate_desk/2014/02/internet_troll_personality_study_machiavellianism_narcissism_psychopathy.html
UPDATE: The chimps have multiplied and it appears we have a zoo on our hands. *FACEPALM* If you’re moderator is not deleting some of these ridiculous comments then, I suppose, it’s deliberate … perhaps to avoid any accusations of censorship. I’m all for legitimate discourse – but, if I were a programmer, my killer app would be to create a filter to hide the insanity in forums like this. The immaturity and total lack of any measure of finesse in their provocation takes all the droll out of these trolls. Sigh.
“- – it must simply be that you do this to satisfy your disturbed, compulsive urges, and I urge you to seek the assistance of a mental health professional as you are dangerously close to a psychotic break.”
Your double-talk and false, semi-diagnosis suggests that you might benefit from some assistance in the mental health area.
Ooooooooooooo! You got me … I have received the benefits of hours upon hours of therapy, which has helped me to recognize the inconsequential and illiterate ramblings of insecure individuals who cruise forums and yammer on in their desperate attempt to feign relevance in an otherwise empty, lonely and pitiful existence. Now leave me to my coping skills as I hock a loogie to extinguish the raging conflagration of your burn.
Skepticism and cynicism are very understandable first reactions these days. Glad GG took the time to restate his positions. Time will tell but so far so good.
If we look past the cover story for this particular assault on GG and company, their “crime” is the only one those in power in the USA recognize — not bowing to their will.
Similarly the chaos in the Ukraine is pay back for helping Snowden and keeping the USA from going to war in Syria.
All I know is that the power base in the USA is using drones to attack people in many countries and that it views the environment as expendable. Both of these policies are obviously cruel and tyrannical in the extreme. So long as these memes are acted out their side is the greatest wrong I know of and it is hard to give any credence to the shrills they’ve hired to “defend” them from reporters who say things they don’t like.
Sing comrades, we have all been exposed !
Look ’round, the Frenchman loves its blaze,
The sturdy Glenn chants its praise,
In Moscow’s vaults its hymns are sung
Chicago swells the surging throng.
Then raise the scarlet standard high.
Within its shade we’ll live and die,
Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer,
We’ll keep the red flag flying here.
All I know about the Crimea was from Alfred (titled Lord) Tennyson.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Charge_of_the_Light_Brigade_%28poem%29
The Charge of the Truth Brigade
Half a post, half a post,
? Half a post onward,
All in the valley of Pando,
?Strode Mr Greenwald.
‘Forward, the Truth Brigade!
Charge for the hacks’ he said:
Into the valley of Pando
?Strode Mr Greenwald
‘Forward, the Truth Brigade!’
Was there a fan dismay’d?
Not tho’ the posters knew
? Some one had blunder’d:
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die:
Into the valley of Pando
? Strode Mr Greenwald.
Shills to right of him,
Shilii to left of him,
Shills in front of him
? Volley’d and thunder’d;
Storm’d at with shot and shell,
Boldly he strode and well,
Into the jaws of Pando,
Into the mouth of Hell
? Strode Mr Greenwald.
Flash’d all his pens bare,
Flash’d as they turned in air
Pening the gunners there,
Charging an army while
? All the world wonder’d:
Plunged in the battery-smoke
Right below the line they broke;
Cossack and Russian
Reel’d from the pen-stroke
Shatter’d and sunder’d.
Then he rode back, Yes he
Yes Mr Greenwald.
Troll to right of him,
Troll to left of him,
Troll behind him
? Volley’d and thunder’d;
Storm’d at with shot and shell,
While his enimies tried and fell,
He that had written so well
Came thro’ the jaws of Pando,
Back from the mouth of Hell,
All that is the best of him,
? Best of Mr Greenwald
When can his glory fade?
O the wild charges they made!
? All the world wonder’d.
Honour the charge he made!
Honour the Truth Brigade,
? Noble Mr Greenwald!
Edit.
Edit function for fools like me.
This little box shows bugger all. Even with a bigger one i would still make errors but this dim preview is silly.
You can click and drag on the lower right hand corner to make the box bigger.
Hope things are well with you and yours Jimmy!
Thank you.
Are you all daft? You don’t need documents and reports showing Western subversion of Ukrainian politics and regime changing interference, or have you not heard the recorded conversations of US Diplomat Victoria Nuland? The taped conversation demonstrates in clear detail that while Secretary of State John Kerry decried any foreign meddling in Ukraine’s internal affairs, our State Department was managing the entire process. The “F**k the EU” part is her expressing anger that the EU is not moving fast enough with regime change in Ukraine and her plan was to get the UN involved in the process.
Christ man, this is par for the course. Any of you who actually believe that the US or their counterparts will do anything of consequence in response to Russia’s annexing of Crimea, need to message me immediately. I have this wonderful bridge in Brooklyn I’d like to sell you…..
My point may have been missed. In attacking Glenn Greenwald in the context of what “they” now framed as a “new cold war” no doubt that the next step is to portray Snowden in Russia as a traitor and to condemn to silence all the people defending Snowden… The last declaration of Kerry is very reminiscent of Gobbles rhetoric. It has to be said.
Ahhh I understand, yes make it look like Glenn and all of us on here are raging communist, Russian spies and traitors, and then they can send their storm troopers to deal with us. You could well be right, now that people are beginning to see through the Global terrorist ruse. lol
If that fails then lets see if suggesting possible insider trading will work, that’s creeping in now.
Maybe we have secret weapons of mass destruction, or our gym memberships are really secretly funding terrorism activities overseas !
“new cold war”
Yes, and that dastardly Greenwald is responsible for this too. After his effective debunking of the all important “Terrorist!” meme, what could the military-security-industrial-political complex do but go back to the old tried and true: Russia. Got to keep the money and power flowing in the right direction!
SALUTE !!!!
Thanks Glenn…. Klownbags need to be called out where ever and whenever they hide…
As of this writing, 11.5% (69/596) of total comments have been written by one commenter. I’m not sure if the correct term for this is prolific.
I beleive the literary term is ” By the Word”. Oh, and of course “Per Diem”.
Thanks for doing the counting and the calculation. My guess for this commenter would be Abbadabba. If you count total number of words, I believe the percentage will be much higher than 11.5%. He/She/It is prolific for all articles.
You’re right! The comment count was 70 of the first 627, for 11.2%. The word count was 8064 out of a total of 59863, for 13.5%.
Thanks again. Based on similar comments and communications shared with the Intercept’s technical side, I expect the rollout of a more robust Intercept Comments system will significantly lessen the number of off-topic, incoherent, repetitive, blaming, weird and downright crazy posts by commenters (trolls) such as Ababadabba. Even though I skip over him and a few others of like persuasion, I’ll be pleased when they are back playing in their sandbox.
I just want to express my concern that the recent events, from the leak of the conversation between the State Department representative and our ambassador in Kiev to the last declarations by Kerry ( laughable and frightening at the same time) about Russia, the pounding of the propaganda in the main stream media to legitimize the Kiev new government, and now all the calls to marginalize if not to attack all the dissents, that all those events underline how the democrat US government has become more neo con as ever. WE should not stop expressing dissents and maybe call for a massive “dissent” protest somewhere in New york or DC. My fear is that all what Hannah Arent wrote about is coming to life in the country which constitution is speaking about Freedom!
Mr. Greenwald seems to be paying a price for success: an apparently incompetent writer attacks GG with trash, causing GG to respond with typically skilled writing and providing unknown writer with publicity. As if government attacks weren’t enough.
WOW. I’ve been following Glenn since Salon, and I don’t think I’ve EVER seen this much noise in the comments – and there have been some divisive arguments over what he wrote and/or wrote about. This just looks like trollbait and “OMG, GLENN WORKS FOR OLIGARCH TRAITOR” spam.
Glenn, I know you like to participate in the comments, but I haven’t seen you so far – and judging from the content of these comments, I can’t say I blame you. Hopefully we’ll get to a user account system for the comments soon, so some of this noise can stop.
The Pando writer has trolled (I’m giving him the benefit of the doubt. He may actually believe what he’s written) the web with criticism of the well known Greenwald and gotten a great deal of attention for it. Much more than he does for his usual writing. Look there is a reason why Snowden decided to reveal NSA surveillance crimes against Americans with help from Greenwald and Poitras instead of reporters from sites like Pando, or thinkprogress, or Talking Points Memo, etc.
Good point, John, and I strongly think, as do some of the other commenters, that a lot of this is based on jealousy, as well as suspicion due to the fact that Glenn is being bankrolled by Pierre Omidyar instead of the other “oligarchs” he was bankrolled by when he wrote for Salon and the Guardian. I don’t have any strong reason to defend Omidyar, as I know little about him – but if he allows Glenn to write as he as always written, with no censorship, then I don’t care. I’m sure the financiers of Salon and the Guardian have made contributions to non-liberal causes, but little is being said about that right now…
As to the Snowden documents, Wikileaks was harshly criticized and condemned when someone dumped the entirety of the Manning cache, including names and such. I believe Glenn, Laura and Barton are working carefully to avoid doing this so that the documents retain credibility. These cries for transparency are a red herring, I believe, as well as an attempt to discredit these journalists and thus the articles they put out regarding these documents. It would be in our best interests, therefore, to take all this shrill noise with several grains of salt.
Perhaps it might allay suspicions if journalists who work for oligarchs would follow the policies established for presidential candidates and publish three years of tax returns and put investments into a blind trust.
Why so selective? End all trusts. I want to see everyone’s skin in the game.
So, you want ALL journalists to do this then.
Thank a lot for these clarifications Glen but they fall short, I’m sorry.
Pando’s article, even with all the errors or mistakes you outlined, is the expression of the strongest desire ever from the public for more informations. You’re talking about independance, I’m talking about liberty.
All First Look journalists have to assess their independance just like you did, and reassess it *every single day*. Corruption is a force growing with time, and you will have more to loose tomorrow than today.
The public pressents a lot of positive changes from Snowden documents publications. But knowing the current rate of publication, and knowing the % of documents already used for publications, how many years will be required to publish the full document fund? Only the persons with the full Snowden fund can answer tris question, and it is a fundamental one. You are not dealing with scoops, you are dealing with our liberty, and your own, as I’m sure you know.
One year to publish the full fund is ok. 5 years or more is definitively NOT ok. The public just cannot wait for so long.
I guess it is not so easy to recruit more truely independant journalists in order to increase the publication rate without security breachs. As the owners of Snowden fund (or maybe part of it like are some mainstream newspapers), you have to find a solution for this rate. Together with publishing Snowden funds, it is your duty.
I see that “Operation Shoot The Messenger” is in full swing… What pointless issue can we bring now to distract from the Stasi style surveillance on Johnny Average. Eerrrmmmm, keep throwing mud, hopefully one will stick!
Full swing for sure TomCat, and they are making themselves look ridiculous, they are looking desperate, and petrified, because their total control of everything is being ripped apart. Their feeble and pathetic at mud slinging is failing, and not sticking despite their best efforts.They hate that they have no way of knowing, what revelation is going to be made next. Damage limitation is very difficult when you have no ability to control the timing of publishing. Normally they can just tell the editor what to print and when, and they can also run another headline story at the same time to distract attention from another story which may include damaging revelations. The bullies have been stood up to, and exposed for what they are.
CAREFULL: Eerrrmmmmm might become illegal like hmmmmmmmm did with DG(2P3T).
Operation Moderation!!
I agree TomCat. This is a pretty shabby story to carry to the lunchroom, today. I prefer we get red hot sigint we can link to our Representatives and system administrators. Glenn may be great at Verbal Fight Club, but he stinks at manipulating media markets.
When you fights, you gots to fight fair and balanced. Take it to the BRIDGE. Should have given the Judge a hat trick for having defended free press This Week. Then wouldn’t the FOXes have hounded us!
CAREFULL: Eerrrmmmmm might be become illegal like Hmmmmmmm. Look what happened to DG(2P3T)
“Operation Shoot the Moderator?”
I’M LOVEINT
Are you going to eat your cheese paper?
Wilma!!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdJ27RynTnQ
Taken down in flames. There has been no “statement” about moderation here at the intercept. I like others have experienced a few posts not getting through. I’m pretty sure none of these said posts in my case were containing anything too off topic or defamatory.
On the topic poor old DG (two planes 3 towers) might have sparked an idea: If who’s footing the bill is so important perhaps one day the intercept could be crowd funded. Just a whacky idea, create a fund story button with anonymous bit coin intermediary.
1000 Bitcoins in the Wallet of your choosing for a story entitled:
“THE ACTUAL PRICE IN £’S OF A FREE PRESS”
How are documents chosen from the Snowden collecton for release? Does one journalist do that, or is it by unanimous consent of those with access to them? How is the date on which the document is released decided? Does Snowden have a veto in the selection and date?
Coming from a background in Law I wonder why you are asking this, and why you are so interested in the process ? Perhaps you could explain your motivation, and concerns ?
I am interested in the answers to those questions because they speak to the issue that GG raises in this post: Can a journalist remain independent while on a payroll of an oligarch.
If the process by which documents are published is shared among journalists with various degrees of dependency on a particular person, that would make it more difficult for a particular individual to follow the interests of her or his employer–should that be requested or expected.
And similarly, if the release of a document is expected to have an influence over –say– bonds or stocks traded on a particular country’s exchange or on a particular company or industry, then the dateof the release might benefit a person with advance information about the date of publication.
Having met the Master of Spys (glasses of water left next to doors that if opened would spill on to ink spoiling original pattern, Lap top hoods etc) does GG practice any of this “presscraft” when meeting with the “Oligarch” to discuss future scoops. I mean we have all been alerted to this deep surveillance: does the Intercept have a building for instance? What is this money spent on: glasses of water and lap top hoods?
It can legitimise corporations or oligarchs to be connected with “green” enterprises/good causes, look at BP etc.
Date of release is one thing: pulling the plug is another altogether and the ability to throw a spanner in the works at any time be it bug the building or what ever other step could be taken by the “Boss”.
As to release “date” : stocks and bonds can be traded in well under a second these days they have NSA type machines for that also. Postponing something by a minute can have the desired effect in the banking world.
Insider trading is very profitable. Whatever oligarchs may be interested in or indifferent to, I assume they are interested in money.
If you knew last week that Russia intended to occupy the Crimea this week, would you short Russian bonds, if that was your game?
@mel lino:
Blockquote>”I am interested in the answers to those questions because they speak to the issue that GG raises in this post: Can a journalist remain independent while on a payroll of an oligarch.”–mel limo
I have no insider knowledge but, apparently unlike you, I bothered to read the post. I’ve also read a number of other posts or read tweets from or watched and listened to interviews of Glenn where he has addresses the question you’ve posed, as though your question has never before been posed until you came along.
You can decide for yourself whether or not to believe what Glenn writes or says, but you come off as more than a bit disingenuous or uniformed if you can’t at least acknowledge that your ‘Burning Question’ above has not been addressed previous to your trumpeted arrival.
Here, again, just for you, is Glenn – being quoted here from the very post you are commenting on – addressing your above question:
“The only Snowden documents Omidyar has ever seen are the ones that have been published as part of stories in media outlets around the world. He has no possession of those documents and no access to them. He has never sought or received access to those documents. He has played no role whatsoever in deciding which ones will be reported. He obviously plays no role in deciding which documents all those other news outlets will report. Other than generally conveying that there is much reporting left to be done on these documents – something I’ve publicly said many times – I don’t believe I’ve ever even had a single discussion with him about a single document in the archive.”Glenn Greenwald
Please read my comment again more carefully. GG would only know if his employer has access to the documents in question if he -Greenwald– were the sole point of access to them, which I don’t believe GG has stated. His employer might in fact have acces to them by another means–perhaps unknown to GG.
So in saying “..the only documents..” etc, GG suggests that he knows everything about what his employer has seen. While it may be true that he knows everthing he personally has shown his employer (-he says, nothing), he can’t actually know whether his employer has found another way to retrieve any from the store of documents.
I read your god damned comment. Your comment, and then followed by your response to me, are straight up white noise. You’re a waste of time.
General Greenwoodaximus, range is good, unleash hell on the evil empire of stasi, barbarian, lapdogs !
Good response, Glenn, as usual. Pity that the circling hordes ready to attack the new venture are so readily hypocritical.
Hee Haw, I’ve tossed that cat scene so many times, ad networks are selling me cat food! Push my bellly buttons, you know you want to, ME-OW!
Sunday’s Guardian filled in the blanks. I see, this is the Snowdeny site, Taibbi will have a WallStreety site, more to come. I simply suck at waiting. I want a cat video, MEOW!
“I simply suck at waiting.”
No, you simply suck period.
I thought you tossed me aside. Why are you back at me again? I’m ONLY HAY!
I challenge you to a haymarket riot. I can pile up more monetizing dwell time than anyone here who’s trying to make GCHQ’s day more miserable. I’m spinning noble gold here. If you understand it sucks, why can’t you understand it’s sucking BACK at GCHQ? Take that pitchful, Hague, and know I meant it for you.
lots of love, Cam!
You have a sad life I bet.
Moderator: Please allow me to post this and then block me. I only wish to post one more thing in an attempt to explain myself a bit.
Glenn and other commenters,
Sorry you guys don’t like my comments, questions and style. Sorry if I was out of bounds and/or offended anyone. But as far as I can tell I was not calling any names or using profanity, despite the fact that many people called me lots of names and used lots of profanity when addressing me.
I will just ask that you google these things below to see what I was talking about and I will leave and not comment again :(
Thanks, David Griffith
p.s. I tried to respond numerous times to peoples comments but I have been blocked using my original name and email address. So here I would just like to respond to Joseph k junior who at least tried to see what I was saying, instead of reflexively attacking me:
”Hi Joseph,
I appreciate your non-name calling response, at least one person can handle their cognitive dissonance rationally when reading my comments.
By the way for those who don’t know what cognitive dissonance is, please google it.
I have tried to respond to your post twice now in the last two hours with lots of links which you requested. Unfortunately as of now, those posts have not appeared, maybe because of the links. Sorry if this is redundant.
So I would just ask you to google a couple of things for yourself to see what I’m talking about.
Omidyar and Paypal14
Omidyar’s tweet on leaks
for those who don’t believe in psy opps please google:
Operation Northwoods (read the wikipedia article)
Strategy of Tension (wikipedia)
Panopticon (wikipedia)
**Most importantly, the most exhaustive analysis of this situation has been done by a former FBI whistle blower by the name of Sibel Edmonds. She does exactly what you correctly suggest I should do She makes a point, and then posts tons of links backing up her claims. She makes another point and does the same etc.
Google her site ‘boilingfrogspost’ and scroll down the section with all of her articles. She must have written 4 or 5 articles on this topic. Her other analysis is also very good and very interesting. Anyone concerned with foreign policy should watch her Gladio series with James Corbett, can be found on Youtube. Also, in this series I think, she explains who she is, what she went through as a whistle blower (before, during and after) and what she is doing now, why and who funds it etc.”
Don’t flatter yourself. No one cares enough about you to block you.
Don’t consider yourself very compassionate, Lawrence of Dysplasia.
I have never been able to run operation raspberry very long until there was this wide open range (way to push the freedom envelope, Intercept!), but this soul is trying to be understood. Since I specialize in krypto, I will tell you that you suck at show and tell. We all came here to share something, but some of us are REALLY cranky about waiting for their turn. I want a cat video, MEOW!
(that is really impacting my ad networks, who wants catfood?)
Ask me about the BlackBerry.
“…I keep working my way back to you, gurl, with a burning worm inside…”
So, puzzle me this, buzzlers. If they know I’m incessantly signaling cats and meow mixes when I’m only doing it in the Intercept’s box, we be getting scaped, ya’ll. Yup, the box is empty…It’s not possible someone’s stealing my theses and tossing them down the toilet. That would be insane.
That should clog a few filters. I want to see a pumping plumber ad right MEOW!
That leak’s GOT to be coming from the source. Google, it’s always been you pizzing outside the box…will we ever do Paris? Or do all Wordwhatevers come with scrapers installed? Now I’m gonna Ouija board my pad until the heatmap says FU, Francis.
Sorry. No one beats Sir Ian Richardson, Keyser Soze. When the Brits set out to turn on themselves, they select the BEST Mr. Mustard to terrify your Tailor. I could fall for you, Dadd-EEEEEE! Good thing you’re dead, Jim.
I don’t. My current strategy is to scan for names that are familiar from the Salon days; signal-to noise ratio being what it is right now. I certainly would like to find some worthy devil’s advocates, but I have yet to.
D.G(TP3T)?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6-2SFJhk94
If you think that Sibel Edmonds has made any kind of cogent, reasonable or dispositive arguments then you either suffer sever cognitive and logical deficits or you are simply stupid.
In no ways should you be banned for this. You refute yourself.
Sibel Edmonds? LOL
Glenn, you need to publish a piece detailing the USA involvement in the Ukrainian coup. It’s the only way you will get any of your former credibility back. Boa sorte, viu?
Why stop at publishing about just the Ukraine, as there are many examples going back through history where the USA, and UK have violated other nations sovereignty. When pot calls kettle black, over the Ukraine, the World needs reminding. What do they believe Iraq was if not a clear example of such a violation ?
And don’t forget Benghazi, Benghazi, Benghazi.
Unless you’re a shill for the Democrats.
Yeah, definitely repeat the first mistake. Look, no one wants to take a debate into the lunchroom to set forth others’ arguments until the bell rings and you’re the biggest buzz blocker at the table. We need BITES, not elaborate bitchslaps, if we want to get the mission a re view. If you ask me, after falling for it myself, I see Glenn’s only succeeded in confirming his critics more evidenced argument this is more about the jass messengers than I care to carry to the lunchroom. It’s almost embarrassing. I want him to bare others, not bore US. I’m really getting tired of the text book arguments. I love jass, but you cannot recall for another someone’s hot licks. I need a bundle of sticks with which to beat a drum.
I always suspected that this conflict in Ukraine was being pushed by the wealthy elites that want to turn Ukraine into another corporate fascist state similar to the United States with rampant surveillance and tyranny. Their lust and greed for more opportunities for profit will lead to a military conflict with Russia.
This guy was democratically elected, this is no Mubarak or other dictator that the U.S. has supported. However, the U.S. wants to topple the leadership and change the Constitution to favor candidates that are pro-Western, where they can install missile defense system and seek another coup of Putin.
As soon as Russia collapse, they immediately put McDonalds and exploited the valuation of their natural resources for immeasurable profit. If somebody in Ukraine wants to be apart of the EU, they should apply for citizenship and leave.
Jeff, I think that you are completely right about this, as destabilizing a nation through supporting rebels, or an uprising to cause civil unrest or a war does present opportunities for corporations, and those that have given so generously to campaign management, to make huge sums of money from the tax payers purse. Then off course their is also the potential of foreign asset and resource grabbing, and invading the new territory with new commercial offerings. For any war or political conflict, examine first who was behind the destabilization, and who stands to gain most financially. Then follow the money trail from the tax payer through to corporations involved in supporting the military, aircrafts, ammunitions, vehicles, supplies logistics, infrastructure rebuilding, and I am sure you will get the picture. Just look back through history, and do a Google search : ( name of war ) and corporations which benefited most from it. This may sound skeptical, but its the sad reality. Destabilization is where the seed money is spent, and its the initial investment, and activities necessary for future corporate financial gains.
Your journalistic bias is screamingly evident in you first paragraph by referring to the democratically elected Government of Viktor Yanukovych as a “ruling regime”, Regime they are not; his 2010 electoral majority endorsed by OSCE – http://www.osce.org/node/51888. The subsequent 2012 parliamentary elections rendered a comfortable majority for the Party of Regions with a 10% increase in support over 2007.
Surely the democratic will of the Ukrainian people would be better expressed and robustly acceptable in the next Presidential elections – Viktor Yanukovych being 4/5ths through his mandate.
Interesting article for your consideration on the crisis in Ukraine. Just poking around
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/03/03/pers-m03.html
Nip it in the bud…BOOM!
Sorry, Glenn. Your silence on the subversion of Ukraine by USA neocons speaks volumes. “Intercept” is a very appropriate name for your new found wealth. I wonder how many Snowden documents regarding USA activities in Ukraine we will never see. Heroes fall. This one hurts, pal.
HILLARY CLINTON IS NOT PRESIDENT IN 2016
Israel is in COMPLETE STRATEGIC COLLAPSE – we are already focusing 16 steps past that on REMOVING AIPAC’s GIRL
AIPAC is also in COMPLETE STRATEGIC COLLAPSE with Bill Kristol tearing it apart for not going down with the Apartheid ship.
(Not that it would have mattered, Bill, but now Hillary is gone, so fret your pretty little head about THAT CATASTROPHE, as well as your own RADIOACTIVITY LEVEL. Tel Aviv beachfront looks pretty nice…)
HILLARY is out in the OPEN still completely supporting the Apartheid State and it’s sponser AIPAC, as Apartheid craters into the ICC (Obama told Netanyahu today that he won’t stop Israel’s fall at the UN, or the EU Boycotts, OR THE COMING US BOYCOTTS)
Hillary is FIXED IN PLACE on her AIPAC horse as AIPAC-APARTHEID freefall to the ICC in September
Hillary Clinton is FREE-FALLING to the ICC chained to AIPAC which is CHAINED to Apartheid.
APARTHEID, AIPAC, and AIPAC’s Girl Hillary ARE ALL TOAST, but NONE of them know it yet.
Hillary is out in the OPEN – chained to AIPAC and she can’t get off and she can’t stay on
Israel is in PANIC mode – AIPAC is in PANIC mode – and now Hillary is in PANIC mode
Who wants to be President in 2016? – BECAUSE IT AIN’T GOING TO BE AIPAC’S GIRL HILLARY
We’re overthrowing the Israeli Lobby’s hold over the American political process and foreign policy – THIS IS THE 2ND AMERICAN REVOLUTION
AIPAC will be FORCED to register as the agent of a foreign hostile state and the US will be FREE
A funny thing happened after Hillary set off on her AIPAC-horse for her Coronation Lap Redux. The horse exploded – and HILLARY WAS HOIST ON HER OWN PETARD
Thank you, Mr. Greenwald, for captaining this ship. Some of the lifeboats are a bit crowded, but you did warn us about this possibility. The least we can do in gratitude for your service to us (and that of your crew), will be to make our comments readable and to the point.
You never promised us a rose garden.
Why all the talk of lifeboats, the hull is not even scratched.Its not The Intercept or Glenn, that has hit the iceberg, and its the good ship mainstreampress that is holed with corruption, riddled with its structural and editorial weaknesses, with its arse stuck up in the air. Not much hope of survival on that ship, for the ordinary guy either, since just the same as on the Titanic, the vast majority of the lifeboats will have been allocated to the elite.
The Intercept or Glenn, that has hit the iceberg,
lol. Just got an image of Paul Carr, wings spread, at the prow of the good ship Pando, with Mark Ames’ arms firmly wrapped around his waist. [snort!]
Double [snort]!
Maddow could demonstrate independence from MSNBC by being opposed to Democratic Party establishmentarianism.
O’Reilly could demonstrate independence from Fox News by being opposed to GOP establishmentarianism.
Of course neither of them will, and are complicit in a larger bipartisan establishmentarian corruption.
You can only DEMONSTRATE independence from Pierre by being opposed to something he stands for overtly. The problem is, you may not be, for your own reasons.
Patrons should not define their artists, but affinities can confuse matters.
If you are free to disagree IN HIS OWN PRODUCTS with Pierre, you are indeed free.
I’m going to spoil everybody’s Oscar watching and tell you that the winner of Best Picture was How Greenwald was My Valley. A major disappointment in that Citizen Greenwald was expected to get the nod. The other nominees were My Fair Greenwald, Greenwald of Arabia and In The Heat of the Glenn.
Now, back to our regularly-scheduled war in progress.
Kee!
Titonwan, there has been a request to proffer you an invite to Politics as Usual, a place created by one of the regulars where we could keep the conversational hearth glowing while Glenn was in limbo. It’s been a good place to discuss other issues, etc. as well and many of the ‘usual suspects’ have made it into quite the homey place.
If you have time and are interested, here’s where you can find us:
http://www.billschee.net/phpbb/
You have to register and be approved to comment, not to limit voices or opinions, but to keep out spam.
Hope to see you there. We’d love to see more of your artwork. PI’s already there posting her stuff.
@coram nobis…war in progress indeed. brought to you by our friendly MIC. Fuck Hollywood. Obama should be receiving this years Worst War Criminal award.
the winner of Best Picture was How Greenwald was My Valley.
Weren’t the Minkoff sisters in that one? Pretty sure that was Myrna I saw having a ‘wardrobe mishap’ on the red carpet. ;-}
That kind of gown design always risks — um — what we in the law call “subject to partial divestment” (see, e.g., Janet Jackson v. Super Bowl, 2004).
We may remember this event like we do the Duchess of Richmond’s ball. “There was a sound of revelry by night,” and all that.
The previous two comments reminded me of that good old Irish song ‘Mountains of Mourne’ where a lovesick Irishman laboring in London sings the following phrase to his lover back in County Down, Ireland.
I believe that when writing a wish you expressed
As to know how the fine ladies in London were dressed,
Well if you’ll believe me, when asked to a ball,
They don’t wear no top to their dresses at all,
Oh I’ve seen them meself and you could not in truth,
Say that if they were bound for a ball or a bath.
Don’t be starting such fashions, now, Mary Macree,
Where the Mountains of Mourne sweep down to the sea.
All the Griffith quotes in the article below were not addressed to me but to GG. But since Griffith accurately implies or says that the NSA and government are funded by tax payers, and since I am a tax payer, I have a right to a say in the matter.
David Griffith wrote (02.03. 2014, 0817):
” yes I do think that you should violate your agreement with Snowden. Why? It’s very simple. ”
My response:
Entering into agreements suggests instantiation of a contract which requires prior knowledge of the terms of the agreement, and the implications of its breach. Once parties enter into an agreement, it is dishonourable – and usually illegal – for either party to up and violate the agreement on a whim.
David Griffith wrote (02.03. 2014, 0817):
” They aren’t Snowden’s documents, therefore he can’t decide what is to be done with them. They are Public Documents. (That means we the people, who paid for their creation in the first place) ”
My response:
If they were so much public property, then why did the NSA not willingly publicize them so that people would know that they read Dilma’s and Merkel’s emails, among other activities that they engage in and some of which IT MAY NOT BE IN THE PUBLIC INTEREST TO RELEASE? This preceding sentence explains, in my opinion, being SELECTIVE in what they release. There may be components of the information that they are in possession of, that it may not be in the public interest to release. And they must obviously carefully make that determination.
David Griffith wrote (02.03. 2014, 0817):
“For example: If I steal a bunch of books from the Library and then give them to whoever to report on and then say ”but only report on what you deem important, the rest I don’t want the public to know about, even though the books are rightfully theirs” What is that?! ”
My response:
Poor example. Libraries that I know of NEVER hold secretive caches of books from the public.
David Griffith wrote (02.03. 2014, 0817):
“That you are now profiting from these said documents (that should be in the public domain, as our tax dollars fund the NSA and rest of the Government) in the form of book and movie deals, is a whole other story.”
My response:
I cannot comment on the line on profiting from the said documents because it is not worth responding to. True, my tax dollars fund the NSA and the rest of Government. And I want them to continue to fund both the NSA and the government. But only for activities that truly serve the best interest of the country. The activities revealed by these documents are already undermining the very objectives of the NSA and the government. Brazilians have developed ways to inundate the ‘metadata’ with all manner of ‘keywords'; ‘fake email contacts’, etc, to bloat the system and overwork it with junk info. Europeans are developing their own data management and sharing systems that are independent of the US. Many businesses are now choosing to stay away from purchasing US hardware because of the flaws that have been exploited in order to SIGINT. I could go on and on. All of this, makes it hard for the NSA to do what it needs to do, but it is not because of Snowden. It is because, if these activities never existed to begin with, there would be no Snowden files …
David Griffith wrote (02.03. 2014, 0817):
“Good deal for you however. Government leak$ equal big bu$ine$$.”
My response:
Ignored comment. Let me add: I am not a lawyer.
Sometimes the best thing to do is to simply ignore the petty attacks. And ignorant comments, of which there are many above. Looks to me like the NSA has wasted no time in switching their attack from the Guardian to The Intercept.
Keep up the great work, Glenn!
You want an example of journalistic independence, you need look no further than the RT coverage of the Crimean matter.
http://americablog.com/2014/03/heels-make-look-hitler.html
I see a Hero of Soviet Labor award here.
Another from RT quotes our own John Kerry, wildly brandishing his shameless hypocrisy:
It’s quite an impressive display, actually.
http://rt.com/news/kerry-russia-us-pretext-494/
Well, if it is the 19th Century, is he auditioning for the role of Metternich? Or Napoleon III’s foreign minister, what was his name, Camembert? It’s a mix of absurdity and hypocrisy all around.
Somebody send him a copy of The Sleepwalkers: How Europe Went to War in 1914.
– – –
There is evil, ever around, fundamental
System of government quite incidental
— “Evita”
All that matters is that if you (Glenn) or any of your First Look colleagues were to disagree with Pierre about something (and this situation may or may not be that something), you are certain that they could express such disagreement in ‘his’ publications.
You seem quite certain this is the case. There is no more to be said until strictures comparable to establishment serving outlets like MSNBC or Fox News on this site are actually proven.
It seems that the wheels of disinformation are starting their ominous move.
And the Intercept decided to lay down and be rolled over so they could waste the entire weekend debating with baiters. What a bunch of BS.
I love Russian history, am sick for Crimea and want to know what that has to do with the price of tea in Ceylon. I want data to honey badger my Reps with! Preferably a big fat strink bomber full. This is useless grist. Way too inside when we need to turn that inside OUT!
Weekends are for wrapups that you can carry to work the next morning to spread the news.
This is not news, this is combative criticism! I am NOT gonna go pass this silly string along. Glenn might think this sells ideas, but if you want to push the envelopes. you got to rev the engine and make plane you mission, not engage in these argumentative dog fights.
i’d never even heard of this titty bird and now he’s been elevated to a platter. Hardly worth cutting his head off.
Two of life’s enduring mysteries are
1. Why any country would allow foreign funding of any political movement.
2. Why any country would allow a plane with the likes of Insane McCain to land.
Where did i hear McCain had a lot to do with minting a bunch of high expectations telemogals in the Caucasus that got taken for so much as doo doo. Can they hear John, now? He pushed them into Putin’s radar. He’s an icehole who would like to credit himself with a salvage operation. The New Hoover.
First, he has to frack something up. Could it be the BTC? Heaven’s me. I do like to kick my own kangaroo.
LOL, Bill. I LOVE humor, especially now.
Who decides which documents are released and the timing of that release? What is the process? Is there a vote? Is the selection delegated to a particular person? Does Snowden have a veto?
Glenn,
What’s your favorite color?
It irrelevant since this is not about colours.
No excuse for funding far-left whackos and overthrowing governments destablizing the region.
Why don’t you go study the deliberate destabilization of Iraq which was an unlawful war brought about by lies about non existent wmd. Can you offer any excuses for that ?
Here’s a NY Federal Reserve Banker telling Lloyd George how the Allies should sell Russian cabbage right after handing Lenin a check for a million bucks. Not a loan, a gift for winning the Russian Monopoly Game. Or was that in exchange for all the imperial booty he hauled out of the palace?
FIRST
The Russian situation is lost and Russia lies entirely open to unopposed exploitation unless a radical reversal of policy is at once undertaken by the Allies.
SECOND
Because of their shortsighted diplomacy, the Allies since the Revolution have accomplished nothing beneficial, and have done considerable ham to their own interests.
THIRD
The Allies representatives in Petrograd have been lacking in sympathetic understanding of the desire of the Russian people to attain democracy. Our representatives were first connected officially with the Czar’s regime. Naturally they have been influenced by that.
FOURTH
Meanwhile, on the other hand, the Germans have conducted propaganda that has undoubtedly aided them materially in destroying the Government, in wrecking the army and destroying trade and industry. If this continues unopposed it may result in the complete exploitation of the great country by Germany against the Allies.
(abbadabba inserts that competing with German bankers was ultimately this wanker’s mission)
FIFTH
I base my opinion upon a careful and intimate study of the situation, both outside and inside official circles, during my stay in Petrograd between August 7 and November 29, 1917.
(Now he gets down to business)
SIXTH
“What can be done to improve the situation of the Allies in Russia?” (George must have asked)
The diplomatic personnel, both British and American, should be changed to one democratic in spirit and capable of sustaining democratic sympathy.
There should be erected a powerful, unofficial committee, with headquarters in Petrograd, to operate in the background, so to speak, the influence of which in matters of policy should be recognized and accepted by the DIPLOMATIC, CONSULAR and MILITARY officials of the Allies. Such a committee should be so composed in personnel as to make it possible to entrust to it wide discretionary powers. It would presumably undertake work in various channels, the nature of which will become obvious as the task progresses. It would aim to meet all new conditions as they might arise.
EIGHTH
It is impossible now to define at all completely the scope of this new Allied committee. I can perhaps assist to a better understanding of it’s possible usefulness and service by making a brief reference to the work which I started and which is now in the hands of Raymond Robins, who is well and favorably known to Col. Buchan – a work which in the future will undoubtedly have to be somewhat altered and added to in order to meet new conditions. My work has been performed chiefly through a “Russian Committee on Civil Education” aided by Madame Breshkovsky, the Grandmother of the Revolution. She was assisted by Dr. David Soskice, the private secretary of the then Prime Minister Kerensky (now of London); Nicholas Basil Tchaikovsky, at one time Chairman of the Peasants Co-operative Society, and by other substantial social revolutionaries constituting the saving element of democracy as between the extreme “Right” of the official and property-owning class, and the extreme “Left” embodying the most radical elements of the socialistic parties. The aim of this committee, as stated in a cable message from Madame Breshkovsky to President Wilson, can be gathered from this quotaion: “a widespread education is necessary to make Russia an orderly democracy. We plan to bring this education to the soldier camp, the the workman in the factory, to the peasant village.” Those aiding in this work realized that for centuries the masses had been under the heel of Autocracy which had given them not protection but opposition: that a democratic form of government in Russia could be maintained only BY THE DEFEAT OF THE GERMAN ARMY; BY THE OVERTHROW OF GERMAN AUTOCRACY. (caps aer HIS) Could Free Russia, unprepared for great governmental respsonsiblities, uneducated, untrained, be expected long to survive with imperial Germany her next door neighbor? Certainly not. Democratic Russia would become speedily the greatest war prize the world has ever known.
The Committee designed to have an educational center in each regiment of the Russian army, in the form of Soldiers’ Clubs. These clubs were organized as rapidly as possible, and lecturers were employed to address the soldiers. Th lecturers were in reality teachers, and it should be remembered that there is a percentage of 90 among the soldiers of Russia who can neither read nor write. At the time of the Bolsheviki outbreak many of these speakers were in the field making a fine impression and obtaining excellent results. There were at lest 250 in the city of Moscow alone. It was contemplated by the Committee to have at least 5000 of these lectures. We had under publication may newspapers of the “A B C” class, printing matter in the simplest style, and were assisting about 100 more. These papers carried the appeal for patriotism, unity and co-ordination into the homes of workmen and the peasants. (gotta get those Germans!)
After the overthrow of the last Kerensky government we materially aided the dissemination of the Bolsheviki literature, distributing it through agents and by aeroplanes to the German army. If the suggestion is permissible, it might be well to consider whether it would not be desirable to have this same Bolsheviki literature sent to Germany and Austria across the West and Italian Fronts.
(abbadabba must interject here to say what some argue is the Allies wish for Russia to remain at war with Germany as this profits such men , both in the the provision of material and their expectations of extracting resources from the infantile giant baby state when it fell over. Democracy was the Allies cover story, Bolsheviki detested free will. Of course there are other interpretations which context might better inform.)
EIGHTH
The presence of a small number of Allied Troops in Petrograd would certainly have done much to prevent the overthrow of the Kerensky government in November. i should like to suggest for your consideration, if present conditions continue, the concentrations of all the British and French Government employees in Petrograd, and if the necessity should arise it might be formed into a fairly effective force. It might be advisable even to pay a small sum to a Russian force. There is also a large body of volunteers recruited in Russia, many of them included in the Inteligentzia or “Center” class, and these have done a splendid work in the trenches. They might be properly aided.
NINTH
If you ask for a further programme I should say that it is impossible to give it up now. I believe that the intelligent and courageous work will still prevent Germany from occupying the field to itself and thus exploiting Russia at the expense of the Allies. There will be many ways in which this service can be rendered with will become obvious s the work progresses.”
Justin Case anyone wants to know how the Oligarchs rocked the Cash Bar back in the day.
Why’s a banker advising Lloyd George about Allied policy? Because he was there to profit from the fall out when it fell down. He sold a LOT of Provisional Government bonds, folks. Friends probably bought them, too. What’s a little loss between close friends if it wins the Baku sweepstakes? Think long term if you want to understand their short games. This wanker’s game? Posing as the American Red Cross. Oh yeah, they even pizzed in THAT bucket.
I think this argument is a little slipshod. There is no denying the influence of corporate ownership on media. It drastically limits the extent to which dissent can be expressed, and if I remember correctly, Glenn has himself written about this.
That being said, I think it would be naive to think that corporations have complete and total control. I think this is a situation of a wealthy billionaire seeing someone doing something incredibly important and deciding he wanted to be on the right side of history. As much as corporate media is inherently conservative, the fact remains that there are internal fissions among the most powerful, including the extent to which regimes like the US can succeed going the rate they are going. My guess is Omidyar decided to think ahead and get in on the “progressive” side of the unfurling scandal. It’s important to remember, for example, that Omidyar’s Ebay was crucial to preventing Wikileaks from receiving necessary funds, which sparked Glenn’s Freedom of the Press Initiative to raise money for them.
So if Glenn hasn’t felt the heavy hand of Omidyar on his journalism, I think that’s the clearest reason.
Whilst I have the highest regard for the integrity, and quality of the reporting in The Intercept I have to express that I am extremely concerned at the state of the majority of the mainstream media, as it is evidently weak when it comes to raising criticisms, and concern of Government policies and their private contractors, and security agencies. I believe that the vast majority of the press, no longer appear to have a healthy appetite for opposing Governments points of view, and so many seem scared to show even the smallest measure of muted dissent. This fear, and sheepishly weak, and shameful behavior, amounts to a neglect of duty, and great disservice to the general public. This weakness is particularly evident when it comes to the reporting of civil liberties abuses, war crimes and Human Rights violations. So many times I have seen stories which were of great public interest, either held back or not published at all. Video footage sometimes is not shown on national television news when it should have been, or it is sometimes edited, and cut to avoid telling the full story. it appears to me that many online media publications are also softening revelations to reduce public outrage .I am sure that we have all seen numerous examples of reporting being diluted, or manipulated, so that it does not reflect so badly on a Government agency, contractor, or even on the military. I fear that we are witnessing an era of fearful reporting, which is giving rise to publications which are practically identical in content, and which are all churning out the same style of Government propaganda. The truth is often being forbidden, and this is completely unacceptable.
This situation is extremely serious, because it effectively means that Governments and their security agencies, private contractors and military can get away with almost anything, with less fear of discovery, public exposure and public outrage. With so many Governments already failing to respect their own legislation and International Laws it is essential to have public watchdogs so that standards in Governments can be improved. If we sit back and accept press censorship then this could ultimately lead to public blindness, and a loss of reality whereby our perceptions on everything will become managed and controlled , and our thoughts will not become our own. This is a very dangerous and undesirable position for any true democracy to be in. If press censorship, and Government control of the media is allowed to continue unchecked, and unchallenged then a time will come when all dissent will be silenced. Whistleblowers will not come forward; because journalists will not be able to safe guard their sources. Governments will also become even less accountable, with even less respect for transparency and integrity. The consequence will be more corruption, more deceit, and a total breakdown of trust and confidence, in journalists and Governments, coming from the public. This could also have severe social consequences, and lead to increases in civil liberty violations, and more Human Rights abuses.
The need for an independent mainstream press concerns me much more than even the Edward Snowden revelations. It is my belief that we need to encourage a more open and accountable Government which offers greater transparency. We need a strong free and fearless press to be able to hold our Governments accountable. We need more publications like The Guardian, and The Intercept, and more fearless journalists like Glen Greenhill, Jeremy Cahill, and the other team members
Our Governments must also be encouraged to listen to our voices more and especially when valid and serious concerns are being expressed. I also believe that the independence of news publications, and the freedom for investigative journalists to be able to write about their findings, without fear of punishment or reprisals, is critical. The right of journalists to be able to protect their sources must also be respected and maintained. I would also like to see more tolerance of minority groups, and of peaceful and law abiding protestors and activists. Citizens in other countries have rights to, and their voices must be heard, and this is even more important in areas which are either war zones, or subject to military strikes. War reporters must not be imprisoned or persecuted when they report on war crimes no matter which Government’s troops committed the atrocity it should be investigated.
All citizens of the World have a right to free speech, and when reporters come across crimes, no matter who committed then, they should be reported on. Standards in all Governments across the World have fallen so much in recent years, and we all have a duty to influence, and pressure our Governments to improve their standards and ethics. We deserve better and seeking improvements in standards now, across Governments, and journalism, will not only determine the quality of our lives now, but it will also determine the quality of life for future generations, including our own sons and daughters. If we want a fairer, and more honest society, with Governments that are more honest, and less corrupt, then it is every journalists responsibility to be strong, and to report with independence and integrity . It is every citizens responsibility to read and share those reports, and to speak up for reform and change.
“Whilst I have the highest regard for the integrity, and quality of the reporting in The Intercept”
It’s far too early days to say that.
It may be early days in the life span of The Intercept, but as a reader of the journalism here I have not read anything that The Intercept has published so far which would give me any doubt regarding their independence and integrity.
“I have a dream”, and that is that one day we all may be able to say the same for the rest of the “mainstream press, and for those attempting, to smear, and create doubts about The Intercept.
I would like to see now if any of the mainstream media have the guts to publish anything similar to the comments, and criticisms which have been made ?
Its interesting to also question why not one single person has thrown a challenge out to The Intercept or its supporters here, to show examples of where obvious censorship has occured ? I suspect that is because they know that everybody has awareness of many examples, and that it would cause further embarrassment and shame, if the examples were again “raked up” and published all together here.
BRAVO!
Simply ignore the “mentally-defective psychopaths” and continue forward.
However, something I noticed in your response was restraint and politeness. Where you wrote “…is an outright falsehood,” IMHO “a fucking lie” would have been more appropriate.
THANK YOU! THANK YOU AGAIN!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tP4yX2rkpBc
Forgive me if this is not kosher. Shouldn’t there be a sucky ad first?
Pando’s marketing budget
2% Business Cards
98% Attack Glenn Greenwald
—-
You thought you would be told these things by an innocent man?
We are all human. We are all corrupted.
We are corrupted by capitalism, competition, and scarcity. We are corrupted by consensus, cooperation and compassion. We are corrupted by morality.
And yet the arc bends.
We are corrupted waiting for a righteous one. We are corrupted praying that the righteous one is not ourself. Betrayed by heaven. Condemned by earth. Redeemed by nothing.
And yet the arc bends.
It is said far too often that power corrupts. Once again we are told that we are only forgiven in death and submission. That the meek shall inherit the earth. No greater lie has ever been spoken or believed. Reflect on the corruption required to dig your own grave in the name of righteousness. To sentence yourself to death, not for what you have done, but for what you might do.
And yet the arc bends.
It is one thing to be told by the poor and hungry that poverty and starvation prevent corruption, but these lies are more often told by full bellies and fat wallets. We still speak the lies of Kings and call it honesty. None dare call it corruption.
And yet the arc bends.
We should all be corrupted by abundance. We should all be corrupted by the luxury of morality. We should all be corrupted by power.
The arc is bent by our own hands.
You thought you would be told these things by an innocent man?
TO: GLENN GREENWALD
Was perusing your comment section and was astonished to see you spending time attempting to set the
record straight by responding to what amounts to infinite opinions.
Your talents are too valuable to waste on what amounts to your ego getting in the way of being prudent.
Be careful where you put your energy, since it really matters not what others think…
“Was perusing your comment section and was astonished to see you spending time attempting to set the record straight. . .”
Engaging with commenters “below the line” is one of the refreshing – and, IMHO, truly important – ways in which Greenwald differs from our run-of-the-mill journalists and analysts.
I don’t think you need to worry about his ego (well-developed but definitely not running wild) or his energy resources (which seem to exceed those of normal humans by an order of magnitude).
Glenn has always engaged below the line from the time that he began his own blog, Unclaimed Territory. The comment about “ego getting in the way” is exactly opposite of why he engages below the line. Glenn appreciates that people comment, — in agreement and not so or somewhere in between — which shows that he does not live in the arrogance bubble that so many “journalists” in MSM and various degrees of blogosphere or online magazine writers do.
While it is undoubtedly the case that certain people that he replies are a waste of time as far as turning their notions or disingenuous purported opinions around, but his comments to them still serve the purpose of putting on the record whatever it is that he has stated in his reply.
I agree that Glenn should ignore such weak attacks. I live in Silicon Valley and had not even heard of Pando until Glenn responded so eloquently. People are listening to Glenn and Edward Snowden. These other sloppy hacks have no audience to be of concern to Glenn who has more important things to focus upon. Like when are we going to get the 9/11 papers published?
”“journalists should be judged by the journalism they produce…”
And by what they dont write about.
We all know why talking heads like Matthews and Maddow dont talk about certain critical things to the US public.
They would lose their 5 million a year jobs for taking on touchy truths.
Wake me when the US press and media become free and objective again—not funded by elites and agendas.
Until then I will question and compare all the different stories and contridictions therein on events and issues forearmed with the background of and any possible personal ideology and agenda of the reporter, author, etc..
You have to be extremely naive these days to accept anything from any source at face value.
Glenn is driven by an unstoppable social force, investigative & report.
Thank the gods for people that have the courage to stand tall while the rest of us hug the ground, bullets flying all directions.
Hey Glenn, give me a job, dammit. I’ll draw your imagination in any style you want. I’m dyin’ over here.
Presumptious Insect could also use a leg up. How about it? We’re long time admirers for fuck sakes.
I have the equipment- gimme a chance.
Now, dude, no one’s getting hired off our idiotic ranting. But we ARE churning hay into gold. The longer we dwell the deeper the well of doodeedata suggesting this place tastes GRRREAT! Chip in some more and we may score the Intercept a sponsor! Then we both will have to go.
More proof either you have diarrhea of the mouth or karma is killing me right now.
Pretty much, you’re the major troll here. Quantity doesn’t necessarily mean quality. Tone it down, pard. I wasn’t adressin’ you.
Roger, that’s a major roll off. Maintain radio silence.
Hi,
great article! Thank you for your work
lovely greetings
http://www.change.org/de/Petitionen/heben-sie-edward-snowden-in-den-status-eines-fl%C3%BCchtlings
Pando must be a neocon play on the word “pander” because pandering to the ignorant is what they do.
Glenn,
I respect the work you do, but please try to keep an even head with your response. I think in your eagerness to defend journalistic independence, you overlook the fact that where your funding comes from as a journalist matters.
Yes, Rachel Maddow, Chris Hayes, etc can do good reporting despite their funding, but I don’t think either of them would claim that their reporting isn’t effected to some extent by where their funding comes from. You are a great reporter, but you’re wrong to count your boss’ money or politics as not haivng an important effect on what you are doing.
>”they have no effect whatsoever on my journalism or the journalism of The Intercept. That’s because we are guaranteed full editorial freedom and journalistic independence. The Omidyar Network’s political views or activities – or those of anyone else – have no effect whatsoever on what we report, how we report it, or what we say.”
This isn’t Fox News, when someone makes an argument about you, it’s not either ALL RIGHT or ALL WRONG. The world is not Black & White and you guys do more good work than bad in my estimation, but please understand that journalists and historians are ALWAYS bias to some extend. It’s not a right/wrong thing. It’s a HUMAN thing.
Good work. Keep it up. (not sarcastic). I appreciate the work you guys do. But Pierre Omidyar’s political influence in your operation is very real whether you acknowledge it or not.
How has this influence manifested so far, specifically? Am I doing anything different compared to, say, the work I did at Salon or the Guardian? Is anyone doing things differently?
No, you’re not. You’re still doing the same great work.
But why then, all the extra baggage that comes with following the neoliberal model? It seems to me that Omidyar is getting an excellent deal by being associated with you: for a small part of his fortune – quickly replenished – he gets a piece of the social capital that you are generating by doing your excellent work (indeed by putting your life in real danger). You give Pierre something he cannot buy – but if he continues to use his economic power in ways that people find unsettling, you will be paying the bill for it.
I think you could do the same work following a different model. A model that by definition, has no need for billionaires who are using their immense power for things that are just as bad, or even worse, than the NSA.
With First Look, your reporting has taken on an unmuzzled tone, and you’ve been more ferocious in your criticism of governmental malfeasance–this is a compliment. However, I think the effect of Omidyar’s funding might someday manifest not as bias in stories, but more as a reluctance to pursue investigations that interfere with your backer’s interests. This subtler form of bias can be assuaged with the safeguard put in place, one of which is…. keeping the dialogue going with your readership.
I personally admire GG’s courage and outspoken opinionated journalism. But I also see Pando’s daily point, and in fact think that it comes as a favor to GG that this sort of criticism came this early in his association with Omidyar. Im sure GG will pay attention to hints or safeguard against possible criticisms for how Omidyar relates to US government. We can’t deny that somebody sponsoring First Look and at the same time working with USAID is going to raise alerts… I don’t doubt Omidyar’s good intentions either, but I think Pando Daily’s has a point…
Glenn,
Thanks for your time and your reply. Very refreshing to see this in comparison to other outlets.
I take it from the way you phrase your response that you don’t deny “this influence” over what you write in this employment/contracting relationship (minor or otherwise). Just that you don’t believe it has caused any material changes in what you have written thus far?
My comment is not meant to be inflammatory. I too believe journalists inevitably have to accept funding from those they don’t know much about, but what I am saying is, when push comes to shove, Pierre is only human like the rest of us, and ultimately any time someone holds the power of the purse over your activity, they retain a certain amount of control or influence.
For example, I don’t think Pierre would stand by idly while you write an investigative piece on him or eBay (i.e. what does his donation to a political group buy? or what change is it expected to create?). That’s just an example. I realize at this point, there would be no reason for it, but if there was, I highly doubt you would be allowed to be as independent as you would like, at least on this website. Even worse, what if you didn’t know that something you were investigating would potentially embarrass him if explored to its full conclusion? In this situation your writing could be bias and you would not even know it based on what you saw as casual conversation about how to tidy up an article.
What you guys are doing is amazing and I applaud Pierre for funding it. I just think everyone needs to keep in mind that “non-biased” is a characteristic that doesn’t truly exist in journalism or history. That being said, it’s a worthy goal. As long as the facts align with what you are saying and you tell all the pertinent information on the story, that’s the most we can expect. I think you guys do an excellent job of that.
Thanks!
I think Mr Glenn has enough of a reputation and/or money so that it may not bean issue, whether to stay on at Intercept or go elsewhere should a perceived conflict of interest show itself.
I firmly believe in an ordering of issues, from planetary extinction to what Madonna wore to the Oscars. On this scale ebay and it’s many horrendous evels, comes in at around #1,976, 233 approximately. If Glenn Greenwald, from now to the end of fucking time, never writes a single word about that monster, Pierre, I could care less.
What’s wrong with you purist idiots anyway?
” He has no possession of those documents and no access to them. He has never sought or received access to those documents. He has played no role whatsoever in deciding which ones will be reported. ”
How would Greenwald know that unless he is the exclusive gateway for the Snowden files for all media outlets? Is that the case, Glen?
No.
Glenn knows that because he isn’t a wilded-eyed loon, imagining that maybe Pierre Omidyar is secretly trying to finagle NSA docs from the New York Times or Pro Publica, in sheer desperation to fiendishly control them all BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
You see, he says that his employer has no access to the documents, but since there are many more than are published how does GG know that there is not a source, other than himself, that can provide access to documents that he hasn’t seen?
So, you can pretend that my question is paranoid, but it is a straight factual question that I which GG would answer.
I am gettin’ mad at people who don’t know how to spell Grimm Gleanworld’s name correctly.
This Carr characters has done nothing but publish extremly biased and factually innacurate articles with the aim of smearing of Snowden, Greenwalk, et. al or anyone else who is risking themselves to openly fight the corruption in this world. He is comming off very much like an “operative” to me at this point. His sole purpose seems to be that of a provateur and cheap propogandist. All this guy does is publish articles saying nasty things about and bashing Greenwald and co. What’s this guy’s deal? Is he just a pathetic troll or is he actually one of these “Earnest Voice” shills?
“Greenwalk”? Are you implying Grimm Gleanword is leading us into an unforgivable act of greenery? That would be pure evil sir.
I love you Glennzilla- in your honor==
After all, Glenn, we only have what we’ve done when we’re ‘dead & gone’-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDp3uhkzjMI
Excellent; well done, Mr. Greenwald.
Without doubt – most finely written. Webster’s dictionary editors must be considering adding “See also entry under “Greenwald, Glenn” when they publish their next update to the word “ethical.” From Salon, to RT, to The Intercept. My world is made better by your journalism, Mr. G.
Is that you glenn?
The commenters on slashdot.org are hanging their heads in shame.
Well, I for one am happy with the non bias reporting you do Glenn. I have always enjoyed reading your partner Jeremy in Rolling Stone and think the 2 of you together will do fine.
Oh! About the article, pretty good. Just keep telling the truth.
I tend to agree that the entire treasure trove of documents should be published en masse. They are our property and we have the right to read them.
Since these criminals will never stand before a judge let us judge their crimes in the public arena. To do that we need to see all the evidence.
I do appreciate Glenn’s review and analysis but I don’t share his goal of building a journalistic empire.
To those who suggest that Mr. Greenwald should not respond to his critics here, I must counter that one of the principal reasons I read Salon, The Guardian, and now The Intercept is precisely because of his engagement with commenters. Certainly, he should neither rebut all his critics nor thank all his admirers; however, his comments are invariably informative and allow for a public archive of his positions on a wide range of topics. I often gain a greater perspective of the man via his comments than I garner from his main articles. I think that he provides a good balance between his article compositions and responding to commenters—pro and con.
Very well said, amigo.
Seconded. I wish more reporters and pundits had the courage and intellectual agility to engage with critics and dissenters in a public forum.
That being said, tactically, the crew took off on that flashpod story with it’s elaborate meme schemes and performed very well in the dog fighti.
But, that mission to defend the flock took everyone’s eyes off of Marcy’s prize. Her story at EmptyWheel in which comments detoured attention from her signal to this rhetorical contest. Who the frack is Panda? Forgive me, but did Marcy not unscramble the Bramble Plot? I don’t give a rat’s about that little fart’s tarty tattler. I expect signal to get into the mainframe if we want to put some pressure on the envelopes. What’s the worst that could happen? They spring a leak?
HOW DO THEY DO IT? By what authority does this Administration exercise such abusive power?
Help me out. I don’t usually argue what the story is about, but didn’t Marcy show us by way of DoJ and NSAs’ reclassification of collected data, they can pass it around to other agencies like copy paper? It has far less to do with 12333? It’s just between the select few administrators at the top of those Agencies? SELF-regulating?
You’d think Congress would be so DISSED, but they’d prefer to talk about AZ’s LONG PROTRACTED ROPE WORK and if Obama is a greenhorn who Putin is gonna Gore.. I see a few Senators are going to demand some answers about the peeping tommies. Is that the last showing of Waiting for Godot I hear is in it’s Endgame? I’m not waiting. Come pick up your bags, POZOS! It’s LUCKY’s Day
I could be REALLY off target, but did we just get Wild Weaseled? The Intercetors? Whoops, weasels, let’s go back to base and read Marcy’s article, because I find it difficult. I may have really botched my summary. Once we know how they do it, operate criminally with impunity, we can honey badger our Reps about it.
I know a few read it and made comment, but I need more help digesting it. I think it made Holder sick.
Abbadabba, here’s the link to Marcy again–
http://www.emptywheel.net/2014/02/28/2008s-new-and-improved-eo-12333-sharing-sigint/
And (apologies) I’ll repeat my comment from earlier (which is way down somewhere in the thread and yesterday’s stuff):
Hey, Joe…where you goin’ with that link in your hand? Is that a copy of your comment at an early likewhine of mine on this long convoy of truckers?
I agree the probability, a word lacking lately in legal wagon circles, is that a mutually beneficial consortium manages to get telecoms back kicks for having ratted on their customers. Say a sheriff in a TX county has to share a hook line with some provider?
Why are we giving rewards to police for doing their jobs in the first place? That’s how Mexicans got murdered by Indian hunters claiming they were handing in Apache scalps. Who’s got 1st place, BTW? Is it HOU-ston? Damn SAM.
If the Marfa district’s chief enforcer was trucking coke across the border in open flatbeads, it is not balloon science to assume this is just an official way to spread the bread. There is so much fracking bread they don’t know where to stuff it.
That link is Marcy’s story I’ve been suggesting we all visit and discuss. Am I over-hyping it? Because I think this big rhetorical fire drill, while clever and humorous, was an Intercept miss. They wanted us to look away from Macry’s story. Does she narrow our field of operators down to the select few? Is that story saying only Holder and Obama’s crew tell the cow how to eat the cabbage?
Dang it. I’m having difficulty concerning it. I’m telling you I’m stupid and need some help understanding it. i like to know how shite works so I can bust up a bad ring job.
My first visit here, impressive. Judging from ALL (the good, the bad, and the ugly) the comments on just this posting, it looks like you’re new venture here is thriving.
Great work Glenn, kudos and many thanks!
Why not spend more dwell timing here? Check out the features and leave the app up all day long. Makes hay monetizers think it’s worth more. Make sure your cat can play with your mouse. They heat map our “movements.” I’m not talking about NSA or GCHQ, that’s your mobile ad networker working it, boys.
Did you know folks get paid to watch to see if an ad actually runs above the “proverbial” fold so they can get a refund from the ad network if you don’t dandle down to their space on the site page? That is paying for WAY too much for attention, even for me. I think that would make one sick. But hay is hay, so say hayboys. Are there any Hayboys in the house?
My first Siamese, in 1962. Get behind me, Hayboy, unless you want to drive. You know you want to. Meow.
Are you drunk when you write these comments, or are you naturally this incoherent?
You comment far too often and contribute little to nothing. Please try to restrain yourself. You won’t of course.
Your reporting has brought substantial embarrassment to the world’s most powerful fascist governments. Naturally, they were always going to try to cook up some phony scandal in attempts to discredit you. The U.S. in particular wishes to see Mr. Greenwald given the same treatment it’s giving Julian Assange, in hopes of marginalizing him.
the value of truth…
thank goodness there are humans around in this world…
who care more about truth than how to make do without it!…
those who know it takes honesty for any true betterment…
and actually do what they can to help bring about it!…
glenn greenwald lays it out on the table as it is…
no matter which tablecloth anyone picks…
to try to slide under it to change it!…
This is a masterpiece editorial! Amusing to say the least. Yet…once again, I am appalled by the fact that the readers are failing to understand that the editor of the The Intercept has the right and sheer audacity to write and publish an editorial piece.
The comment thread is just ridiculous. May I suggest that The Intercept do the following:
1. Close comments on all articles.
2. Add an open comment page and filter the content.
3. Open a website suggestion page.
People who are sincerely concerned about Planet Earth and the welfare of humanity will direct their sincere educational efforts to those topics that matter, i.e.:
http://www.geoengineeringwatch.org/
http://www.activistpost.com/2014/03/its-time-to-rethink-911.html
This as opposed to meaningless reviews intent upon shooting the messenger rather than listening to the message.
As always, I wish you the most benevolent and enlightened outcome.
So then theres no need for campaign contribution reform? Cool!
“This paper argues that self-interest and concern for others influence behavior through different cognitive systems. Self-interest is automatic, viscerally compelling, and often unconscious. Understanding one’s ethical and professional obligations to others, in contrast, often involves a more thoughtful process. The automatic nature of self-interest gives it a primal power to influence judgment and make it difficult for people to understand its influence on their judgment, let alone eradicate its influence. This dual-process view offers new insights into how conflict of interest operate and it suggests some new avenues for addressing them or limiting some of their greatest dangers.” – Don A. Moore and George Loewenstein, “Self-Interest, Automaticity, and the Psychology of Conflict of Interest”
Dear Mr. Greenwald
If he asks you, would you change your name to Glenn Omidyar?
Sincerely,
Norman Stanley Anderson
_______________________
Dear Greenwald,
If it turns out that Mr. Omidyar is actually an extra-terrestrial, would you continue in his employ?
Love your work,
Neil Stuart Arthur
____________________
Hola Mr. Greenwald,
If Mr. Omidyar hired a hit man to kill you, like he did to kill Hugo Chavez, do you think you would continue with The Intercept?
From a fan,
Nancy Stevens Astor
_______________________
Dear Glenn,
I think you’re fantastic.
But how can you work for man who thinks otters should have the same rights as humans?
Sincerely,
Natasha Sarah Nottingham
________________________
Hey Glenn,
How ya doin?
I’ve been following you since UT.
You should try to find good things to write about our wonderful nation.
A patriot,
Nathaniel Styron Alexander
_____________________
Hi Glenn,
Do you ever cry when you open your emails?
Honestly, some people.
Noreen Sylvia Aftershave
Quite humorous, Milton. With “friends” such as Glenn has, Glenn needs no enemies to “balance” things out.
The lovely and talented David Griffith is one of Glenn’s best friends, or at least on the internet anyway. We can all tell because 1) He has told us so, and 2) He helps Glenn to see the “hmmm” possible pitfalls he is taking so that he can pull away from being an NSA front man and become one of the good guys…someday, or again, I’m not sure which since D Griffith has told us that it’s movie deals and book deals that have devilishly turned Glenn’s head. Super helpful is that David person! Huh?!
Kit, just loved the “one of the good guys” bit. Wasn’t that also the brand name for that evil, greedy, deceitful, mass murdering psycho doll ? You know the one that would kill its own mother for a few bucks called Chuckie, Yes I can see why you used the phrase good guys.” lets be friends to the end” !
As a hoary veteran of many wars in outer space and in various fantasy lands, I’ve noticed one of the popular strategies by whatever enemy I heroically battle is the minion attack. Smaller, easily killed minions attempt to swarm me while the heavy hitters hide in the shadows awaiting my inattention.
It’s like a DOS (denial of service) attack. The inane and innocuous troops serve a purpose.
I suppose it’s a common understanding on the internet to never trust explicit presentations yet that is difficult. We can sometimes imagine too little and sometimes too much, so we’re pretty much dependent upon the explicit.
I don’t see the relevance of where Mr. Omidyar spends his money — the projects in which he invests. Yet I see clearly the relevance of where the Kochs (and NSA) spend their money — the projects in which they invest.
The difference, it seems to me, isn’t the contributor but the contributor’s tactics.
Mr. Omidyar seems perfectly transparent, while the Kochs (and NSA, etc.) have a history of funding front groups to further specific political goals.
Deception distinguishes the Kochs from many other political initiatives. Indeed, where I see deception — even of the most sincere kind — I infer ulterior motives. I may be wrong about some of them, but the sort of nattering insistence (especially as you mention) that infest many of these comment sections suggests something ulterior (and sinister) to me.
The NSA has declared unworthy of human rights and truthful information the very people who finance it. As you say, it is good to be able to distinguish your friends from your enemies.
“nattering insistence”
Well said.
piercing as usual.
We can sometimes imagine too little and sometimes too much, so we’re pretty much dependent upon the explicit.
aye, there’s the rub.
Concern Trolling 101.
Thanks for the laugh.
If this site had a Like Button, I would spend all day breaking into people’s houses and logging on to their computers so I could Like this over and over.
Hi, Milton, good to see you here. Glenn will quail. But shouldn’t your agency send additional myrmidons to this new nexus?
Sincere,
Charles Ingmar Anderson
Hey Chuck old boy, let’s grab lunch sometime. Give Ms. Aftershave a call. I wanna hear all about the … well you know. Impressive work, especially with that sniper film. Looked real.
Respects,
Norman “Strawberry” Angleton
Lots of gossip to share. And thanks for the diversion: the National Obsidian Order has helped everybody forget the Company exists, which is just as well. Ta.
Carlos Ignacio Aguacate
I knew it! I knew it all along. I even told KA.
I told him ES belonged to you guys. Nobody acts on principle these days. It had to be your guys. You bastards!
On the upside, now I can put lunch on expense.
N. Samuels Alabaster
Thanks Milton. Spot on! Spot off!
So Glenn has responded to two of my posts. I have a pretty consistent view on this matter and I have repeated it many times in the comments section, I encourage everyone to have a look. But first:
In Glenn’s first response to me he says ”..what you’re actually demanding..” Well read for yourself what it is that I said in reply to a guy called James: ”First off the documents are from the gov’t so they should be public.” SHOULD is clearly the modal verb that I used not, MUST or HAVE TO, which would indicate a ”demand”. However, I DO hold to that belief, that the documents should be pubilc. I don’t go around making demands however. Again, yes I think all Public funded documents should be available to the public because we paid for them and the govt represents us. So they should be open to scrutiny, call me a conspiracy theorist. (Glenn also wrote eloquently about Public officials in the past, by the way and I don’t see how that analysis differs very much when applied to public documents) But really, is ‘they should be public” a demand? Hardly. However, maybe we should demand that they be released in their entirety. Comments found under -Oivae 02 March 4:53a.m.-
Now here it gets interesting cuz then in the next reply Glenn takes the opposite approach and says: ”The only thing worse than people who spew irrational evidence-free conspiracy theories are those who are too cowardly to state their theories explicitly” Well, first off, I did state my opinions explicitly AND repeatedly, contrary to what Glenn claims and second off, now I am a coward?! So first I am ‘demanding’ second I am ‘cowardly’ comments found under -David Griffith 02March 1:44a.m.-
So which one is it? Am I ”demanding” or am I ”too cowardly” or is there a third option? i.e. Glenn is on a major face saving initiative?
Look guys I’m not a hater or a troll or paranoid or cowardly or whatever people try to smear me as here. I am however a disgruntled 31 year old American citizen living abroad (last 6 out of 7 years) because I can’t stand paying taxes to a criminal government (also cuz living abroad is amazing! whoo!)
And as far as GG is concerned, honestly I feel betrayed/duped by him. I can honestly say that I’ve read almost all of his articles over the last 5-6 years, ever since his first appearance on Bill Moyers and I REALLY respected him and learned a lot from him, I still respect his older work. However, his deals with Omidyar (I was initially excited over this), Hollywood and major publishing houses should make everyone think twice about his current motives….just for starters. -Peace
Really? Have you given a yes or no answer to this: “You believe that I’m secretly working for or with the NSA, and that the objective of my stories is to make everyone aware of mass surveillance so that they will be kept in line and obedient to the National Security State, and that all the attacks on our journalism from government officials are just a ruse to cover up the fact that we’re really all working together.”–Glenn Greenwald
I ask because, “hmmmm,” I haven’t read where you’ve answered that ‘yes’ or ‘no’ so maybe, hmmm, you’re not the upstanding, ‘Just asking questions in good faith’ lovely fellow that you paint yourself to be.
glenn greenwald lays it out on the table as it is…
no matter which tablecloth anyone picks…
to try to slide under it to change it!…
Hi Kitt,
You are right I didn’t answer yes or no. Because I answered that, I didn’t know. I’m sorry if you need yes or no answers but life is not that simple. And I certainly don’t have that kind of info. So again I don’t know. But lets look at that question shall we and see its use for GG: It is a rhetorical tool to 1. distract from my very easy and basic questions and 2. to try and discredit me by painting me as a crazy conspiracy theorist. It has zero relevance to my questions, which are all very relevant. Classic distraction technique.
Ah. You don’t know whether Glenn Greenwald is secretly working with the NSA to release documents that will turn the people into accepting and obedient sheep, and whether attacks on Greenwald and Snowden from the government are merely part of the ruse.
You Just. Don’t. Know.
A diseased brain will do that to you
If you respect his earlier work this should hopefully give GG the benefit of the doubt if there still is some (particularly 2 weeks in to a project). I could only assume that this is also the first public correspondence you have had with the quite respected journalist in question. The fact that GG is responding to comments here in full and at that much more in depth than a tweet might be there is the potential for a quite interesting news service IMHO. This type of service will need to move with the times though and would always need some big financial backing.
I can remember seeing Kieth Jarret play the piano for the first time after listening to his records and although the repertoire on the night was not to my taste it was what he said on the microphone before and during the concert which shattered my deep respect for him as a musician (I won’t go in to what he said as that would be totally off topic).
Below David wrote:
Well, it isn’t going to happen, as Glenn has avowed in many times and places.
Ed Snowden has risked an enormous amount to deliver NSA documents to the world, but he doesn’t want to commit actual harm to individuals or U.S. national security. That’s his choice, not yours: Because YOU did not take the documents and thus put yourself at risk of decades or life in prison.
If Mr. Griffith wants the documents public, then it seems to me his first gripe should be aimed at the government that kept them hidden, not at the people trying to responsibly release them. The argument about whether or not he should be labeled “demanding” is a red herring.
His argument that Glenn should shit on the agreement with Snowden, if taken to its logical conclusion, would cause sources who bring these documents to light to literally dry up, even more than they already have in this bogusly prosecution-happy administration. That would result in even fewer documents coming to light, something I don’t think he managed to consider when putting forth his initial, um, “request“.
Ok so I have basically already answered previously all of these new questions about this and that that which have been raised now about my character, not my questions and critiques. Assume what you will, I’m not gonna get distracted answering every smear. I am gonna keep asking the same easy questions that never get answered. Like this one which I have asked multiple times in this thread and I have tweeted to GG on more than one occasion:
Why do you, Glenn Greenwald, not support Nullify the NSA?
This is a very easy question. Nullify is a logical next step in the battle against the NSA. And if GG can’t or won’t answer this EASY question and if that does not raise a HUGE Red Flag for everyone reading this right now. Well what can I say…except the truth (I’m not claiming to know what it is) will come out eventually.
You’re really stretching your nonexistent credibility, child.
Stop trolling here and get lost.
Snowden handed over the files to Greenwald, and not to an irresponsible person like David Griffith, for a reason. I for one would do the same if I was in possession of such important and sensitive documents. Now you figure out why. And when you have stumbled upon the answer please post replies to all your idiotic posts. Till then, like addabadda’s posts and responses to himself, I will skip yours as well. And don’t bother replying to this post.
David Griffith wrote:
I too have a similar question for Mr. Greenwald:
Why do you, Mr. Greenwald, not support Nullify David Griffith?
I am reasonably certain that some of your supporters here would support a nullification of D. Griffith’s comments within this comment section.
I demand an answer since it is as logical, reasonable, and valid as what D. Griffith has demanded of you.
Of course, I do not want a reply to such a literary non sequitur and D. Griffith should not expect a reply from you regarding his likewise abject absurdity.
@ General Hercules, I think you’re making a mistake in equating Abbadabba with David G and co. IMV Abbadabba is in a class by himself all right, but he is not hostile to what’s going on here or trying to prove himself. He is a bit manic, true, but obviously has a lot to offer additional to quantity.
Why do you, Glenn Greenwald, not support Nullify the NSA?
Do you have proof that he doesn’t?
How long has Nullify the NSA existed?
How did it get started?
Who else supports it and why?
Does Nullify the NSA support the destruction of all NSA capabilities, or only those aimed at US citizens and/or being used for the purpose of corporate espionage?
How long has David Griffith supported Nullify the NSA?
Has David Griffith written in support of Nullify the NSA? If not, why not?
Does David Griffith accept that there may be other ways to curtail the NSA – and/or make it more transparent – than the actions of Nullify the NSA?
Does David Griffith support the ACLU, an organization with a judicial track record of countering pro-NSA legislation? If not, why not?
Does David Griffith support EFF, another organization with a proven track record of anti-NSA actions? If not, why not?
etc. etc. etc.
In other words, sources would die of dehydration, with their bodies found in a dessicated, mummified state? Kind of a “drying effect” rather than a chilling effect?
Guilty as charged of the crime of metaphorus incompletus. Should have read:
Well, poo. That last paragraph shouldn’t have been part of the unclosed blockquote.
My kingdom – such as it is – for a preview function! :-s
Hi Mona,
Again, it is my belief that public documents and all so called ‘Too Secret’ documents should be available to the Public. I also believe that all meetings ‘behind closed doors’ are an absurd proposition. We elect our reps for a reason and in this case we paid for the documents creation and in a so called representative democracy or constitutional republic however you wanna see it the Public documents created by the representatives of ‘we the people’ should be Public. It is elementary. The whole system needs to change. Releasing the docs would be a good start, so we the people would know what is happening with our funds and in our name.
But you are not Edward Snowden, and YOU did not take the documents from the NSA. Edward Snowden risked his liberty, and sacrificed his comfortable life, to do that.
So Edward Snowden, not you, gets to decide on what basis documents are released.
there are many things wrong with this.
for one, if you believe that what mr. snowden did was noble and want to encourage that kind of behaviour, then you don’t want to reneg on your agreement with him because it will a) diminish the chances that you will be the recipient of future leaks and b) will unnecessarily endanger the source if you did.
up until now, mr. greenwald’s et al reporting of the stories has been excellent and many things have been achieved. for more than half a year, surveillance stories have been in the news as a steady stream of important revelations has kept the public’s attention. furthermore, because the stories have all been very relevant, most people still consider mr. snowden a patriot, despite the fact that he’s sheltered in russia.
a mass wikileaks-style dump would be disastrous in many ways: 1) most stories would get drowned out by a few of the loudest ones; 2) the public’s attention span would be exhausteed after a couple of weeks, maybe a month tops; 3) any damaging information would quickly dominate all the other stories as 4) concensus would form about mr. snowden and mr. greenwald being traitors and what should be done with them; 5)thus the conversation would quickly shift from the nsa and gchq spying on everyone everywhere everywhen to the messengers. 6) mr. greenwald would need to spend all his time defending himself in more ways than one and would thus be incapacitated from covering new stories, possibly becoming paranoid in the process.
anyone wishing for glenn and first look in general to repeat the mistakes of wikileaks can only be his enemy.
Paul Joseph Watson tweeted you about the Pando bull, he was polite but paranoid. He also wrote a ridiculous hit piece against Jeremy Scahill. Really goes to show that while InfoWars covers legitimate news, it is so easy to engage in making up conspiracy where there is none, and they do. Also accused or at least questioned Assange of being a CIA tool. And they wonder why he won’t reply to their calls to get him on Alex Jones’ radio show…
You are the Man with the hammer. Swing away, either you will take Them down a notch or they will take You down several, choose wisely and work well. Keep your mind in the game neither the cheers nor the boos matter.
Couldn’t care less about this silly dust up.
But I do wonder what the West has to gain by getting involved in the Ukraine. There’s the IMF loan that would draw Ukraine into the EU using the Greek model of austerity and subjugating the people and then there’s the oil, but those two items only benefit the 1%. Right?
Am I missing something?
Yes you are missing something, as a lot of major corporations make a lot of tax payers money from war.
Here is a list of some that profited from the Iraq conflict
http://www.businesspundit.com/the-25-most-vicious-iraq-war-profiteers/
Nope you are not missing anything, I just wish more people saw the world as we do. I have to laugh at the people choosing sides like there’s a difference between Russia or the USA, both want to turn out the Ukraine for their own profit. The Ukraine is a pawn in this fight, it’s lose/lose for them. They get the choice to have the country ruled by Putin or be turned out by a group of international bankers.
I also agree with you on this article being silly and a waste of time. Get back to the Snowden revelations Glenn, that’s why we are here!!! I could care less who signs your paycheck as long as you keep speaking truth to power. Stay way from being dragged into their paradigm. Unless the Snowden leaks have something to do with the Ukraine, I could care less. Stay on point and quit wasting time on this crap.
Mr. Greenwald writes
“More generally, you’re endorsing the point that the political ideology of those who fund media outlets, no matter how much you dislike that ideology, does not mean that hard-hitting investigative journalism is precluded [Rupert Murdoch’s funding IS pretty much death for real journalism.] or that the journalism reflects the views of those who fund it.”
I would just add a bit of clarification. The funding of journalistic enterprises doesn’t of necessity compromise journalistic integrity. If you can make agreements like that The Intercept personell made with Mr. Omidyar, then certainly independence isn’t compromised. But I don’t think anyone would question that the bankrolling of Rupert Murdoch intentionally has the opposite effect.
News is not a commodity.
When any human value — from caring for the sick to teaching or legislating — acquires a monetary value, then the dollar (yuan, pound, etc.) displaces all human value.
Decisions are made not according to what is best for the human value — best for the sick, best for student, best for the polity — but what is best for the decision makers and market value.
Unregulated capitalism rather than the specified human value creates this institutional dynamic.
Murdoch doesn’t destroy news because of his ideology. Profit and loss statements don’t have an ideology — Murdoch would be reporting on drying paint if that gave him (his institution) a profit. This is why the Simpsons endure while Glenn Beck vanishes — not because of ideology but because of profit.
By turning the spirit of journalism into a for-profit enterprise, Murdoch eviscerates meaning. Employees begin to act as if what they do is “journalism” when really it’s strict performance art — “as if” rather than “as”.
Trained lions and Fox News readers distinguish themselves through dedication to their scripted performances rather than through any intrinsic meaning.
It is the difference between a circus (Fox News journalism) and a jungle (actual journalism).
The Judge kicked ass this week in his pundit pulpit. Not ALL that Murdoch spins is BS. He’s got to keep up appearances with his yes minister.
Get your hot used horse hay! Hay, everybody! Get some rehashed hay bales!
Murdoch’s comedy crew will be at the Old Bailey all this week defending themselves. Until May some say.
Folks know Murdoch OKed releasing emails between reporters and sources to police to save his corporate empire’s sagging halls, right? Over 72 have been arrested. But before you think he’s a big giveway, he had a bag of email proving police were also wiling to take bucks for leaks. He kept that sack at a different squirrel firm from his hacky sack’s. Can he control a battlefield or was that Gracie? Say goodnight, Murdoch.
Not ALL his reporters found to have paid government leakers remain under arrest. Those who provided information from a paid government source that informed the PUBLIC INTEREST were released from bail by the boys at Bailey.
Hey, VanWinkle, I think you can keep napping! By means of rhetorical war, the US has handed the Brits our sovereignty! We’ll wake you up when that old hat is so OVER!
”Journalists should be judged by the journalism they produce, not by those who fund the outlets where they do it.” <– and thats why Pando needs to be good to their investors and think everyone else is like them
(audience turn the back on them since day one)
Glenn, I hope you won’t feel it necessary to answer every bit of criticism, however inaccurate, and even – especially! – here in the Comments section. You’ll never get any reporting done!
Nonetheless, your stamina and prolificacy are impressive. Go, dude!
Glenn you really blew it…. With the notoriety you had gained with the Snowden stories you could have taken the approach of funding your and your colleagues’ journalism through the donations of your readers and raised as much if not more than what you’ve gotten from Mr. Moneybags. But instead you had to go the “patronage” route, and the result is that your work will always come under question… Not for what it reports, but for what it doesn’t report.
A forensic analysis of the Ukrainian coup is just the sort of investigative journalism that needs to be done right now, yet your tone suggests ‘nothing to see here, move along’… So we see how you are….
Yeah Glenn should just put the Snowden files to the side while your curiosity is aroused.
Any other requests?
Stairway to heaven?
James, First off the documents are from the gov’t so they should be public. Therefore he shouldn’t ‘put them aside’ he should redact all names and post the entire cache online for people to delve into themselves. Now what we have is Glenn patronizingly telling us what is important and what is to remain hidden. I don’t buy the ‘trickle release’ approach anymore than I buy into trickle down economics. Let us see the entire cache. Not just the 2 percent that Glenn deems relevant. Or can we not understand these documents ourselves and we need Glenn to explain all of them for us? Please, it is insulting.
Glenn wrote tirelessly in the past about how Public officials should not be working behind a wall of secrecy. What is the difference between Public documents? Oh, wait. Right,
they are ”Top Secret” documents! Hmmm..Which entity always uses that excuse? An excuse which Glenn used to write tirelessly against before he realized he could make mega bucks selling this story to Hollywood and to major publishing houses.
Second, what if I am claiming to write against big energy while working for, and very closely with, the Koch brothers? Should my work not come into question just because I repeat over and over that ”I have journalistic independence!! and I have editorial freedom!!” ? You gonna buy that so easily? I would hope not.
Pierre is a part of the silicon valley elite. Imagine what that means. Ever wonder who he hangs out with? I can’t say for sure, but I don’t think it’s a big stretch that he schmoozes with other silicon valley elites who are intimately involved in working with the intelligence state. See Google and Yahoo. See lots of other billionaire businesses. See Paypal. (opps was that Omidyar’s company?) Have these corps never worked with the intelligence community? Is that not a conflict of interest? Oh. wait. Glenn addressed that already! (the paypal block of wikileaks and prosecution of the Paypal14) Yes he did. That is true. And if you bought it, well, I would suggest that you think a bit deeper about all of the connections.
Weather or not Glenn chooses to write about Ukraine is a moot point in my opinion. However, if he wants to continue to defend the one percent silicon valley billionaire Pierre Omidyar even when he supports a clear IMF/NATO (+eu) coup in Ukraine well he is gonna be spending a lot of time defending his quote on quote ”independent” journalism. Not to mention the moves that are happening over in Ukraine and Russia right now, which Omidyar helped to create.
How can Pierre simultaneously fund an adversarial press against the very government he is secretly and repeatedly busted working with? Why is Glenn keeping 98% of the documents back even as he reported that Snowden meticulously organized them for easy reference? Why doesn’t Glenn support Nullify the NSA? (interfering with his ”exposés” too much?) Why did the reported number of documents change over time and steadily increase as the story developed?
Snowden has been quite clear in many ways, including publicly, that he did not want what you are demanding with the documents, and he thus required that journalists to whom he gave the documents agree on how they would be published. From Bart Gellman in the Washington Post in December:
Here was Gellman back on June 9:
Here’s the WashPost in October, reporting on the visit of 4 whistleblowers to Moscow to give Snowden an award, quoting NSA whistleblower Tom Drake saying that Snowden told him the same thing.
Obviously, if he wanted what you want – “redact all names and post the entire cache online for people to delve into themselves” – he could have easily done that himself by just uploading them to the internet. There would have been no need to come to journalists.
He didn’t do that. Because that’s not what he wanted. And he’s made that repeatedly clear, both to us when he gave us the documents and then publicly.
I’m not going to violate my agreement with my source – and subject him to a wide range of risks he did not and does not want to take – to please people who have taken none.
In fact, I find the demand that we violate our agreement with our source – and subject him to a slew of legal and other dangers – to be repellent. People who advocate what you do know that it’s repellent, which is why you refuse to admit that this is what you’re actively advocating.
If you want to disagree with Snowden’s desires for how these documents should be reported, feel free. But it’s just dishonest to refuse to confront the fact that what you’re actually demanding is that we violate our agreement with him and sacrifice his interests.
That’s never going to happen.
This is the idiot fringe you’re arguing with here, Glenn. You’re never going to convince him. And you don’t need to convince the rest of us. I’m really sad that you have to put up with so much idiotic scrutiny, as well as being tailed and harassed by CIA and all the rest. I hope you realise this is a measure of how valuable your work is, and that you have some way of allowing it to not weigh too heavy on you. And please remember that there are millions of us out here who are applauding you.
Thanks, Ben. I try hard to maintain a balance between not addressing every criticism (I ignore 95% at least) and remaining accountable and interactive. I’ve always thought responding to some comments is important. And sometimes it’s more cathartic than anything else to finally address some inane attack that has been circulating.
But in general, I’m well aware that the more success/influence you have in what you’re doing, the more the attacks are going to intensify for all the obvious reasons. In one sense, that’s not a bad thing: the more influence someone has, the more scrutiny they ought to get. But it’s important to distinguish between good faith, valid critiques and the rest, and to realize that the latter, in particular, are actually testaments to efficacy. Appreciate the reminder.
yes I do think that you should violate your agreement with Snowden. Why? It’s very simple. They aren’t Snowden’s documents, therefore he can’t decide what is to be done with them. They are Public Documents. (That means we the people, who paid for their creation in the first place)
For example: If I steal a bunch of books from the Library and then give them to whoever to report on and then say ”but only report on what you deem important, the rest I don’t want the public to know about, even though the books are rightfully theirs” What is that?!
That you are now profiting from these said documents (that should be in the public domain, as our tax dollars fund the NSA and rest of the Government) in the form of book and movie deals, is a whole other story.
Good deal for you however. Government leak$ equal big bu$ine$$.
OMG you’re Sibel Edmonds!
That’s not remotely true. Reader donations could support one, maybe two, journalists to work for a year. No matter how intense the reaction was, it would never get into the same universe as that needed to build a new media organization completely with staffs of journalists, editors, lawyers, technologists, experts, etc. I doubt reader donations would even cover the legal fees we’ve already compiled, let alone the ones that are still to come, let alone all the other expenses required to build a new media organization.
This is nothing new. Critics have been trying to attack me for what I didn’t write about, rather than what I have written about, for as long as I’ve had critics.
Right. I’ve never written about Ukrainian politics in my life. Now, my refusal to feign overnight expertise and start pontificating on it is some sort of dark mystery.
Aside from which: if I stopped reporting on the NSA documents I have, and started writing about Ukraine, many of the very same critics would claim that this proves that we’ve been bought off not to disclose any more NSA secrets, that we’re holding documents instead of reporting on them, etc. etc.
As we made clear when we launched, we launched before we were fully ready to do so for one reason: because we have an obligation to the NSA story and need a place to report those documents the way we think they should be reported. That is our overwhelming focus in this initial stage, as we said from the start that it would be.
Take books from the library, and they are no longer in the library. Download documents from NSA, and they remain unstolen at NSA – still the public’s property.
I agree I would not feign expertise on the problems in the Ukraine. Seriously leave that to Palin. She at least makes ignorance look humorous. I would imagine that there is a lot to go through just on the NSA and the surveillance state and the law.
I think you underestimate the hunger out there for unrestrained journalism. I don’t know what Alex Jones’s budget is, but he is doing the very thing I am suggesting and is building a media empire based largely on his subscribers (though also with advertizing and sales of dvds/books/etc.). A lot of people like him because he and his crew are unrestrained in their reporting. Of course, a lot of people dislike him because he’s a blowhard and indeed he is often sloppy in his reporting. As a journalist, he is basically an amateur; nonetheless, as an amateur he has broken some massive stories that other mainstream and even “alternative” outlets were afraid to touch.
I say the sky is the limit if you were to combine your professionalism with journalistic unrestraint and without the appearance of possible restraint that inevitably comes with reliance on an “elite” patron. Is it too late to tell Moneybags to take a hike?
Also, I’m not suggesting that you personally should cover the Ukraine situation since indeed you are presently preoccupied with the NSA docs (- and I don’t fundamentally disagree with the incremental approach; there are arguments both ways but in the end if your agreement with Snowden was to publish with care incrementally then really you have no other option). Their are other journalists however on the Intercept staff who have more field experience – Scahill? – who should look into the instigators of the Ukrainian coup. Something to look into would be the presence of alleged NATO troops or special forces of unknown origin in Ukraine ‘shooting both sides’ during the demonstrations, thus escalating the crisis to where we are at now. Some of these reports have been translated here… http://aangirfan.blogspot.com/2014/03/nato-troops-shot-both-sides-in-ukraine.html
There is precedent for this sort of thing, including in the so-called “Arab spring” -here snipers of obvious Western origin were caught red-handed… http://youtu.be/NN3tp8Jw3DA
It’s true: nothing to see here; move along.
Glenn has said everything that needs saying for his part, I think; government-funded muck-rakers are going to be trawling everything Mr. Omidyar does for a long time, and chucking anything they can at First Look, hoping something will stick. It’s beneath Greenwald, Poitras and the rest to waste breath on these red herrings. Apart from providing an occasional brief, withering response, I would suggest they just get on with their job of producing first-rate journalism. That’s what people will judge them for. Great exposes on the evil machinations of the US government? Wonderful! Exciting! Or… A tattle piece about some rich philanthropist (possibly) misjudging one of his donations? Yawn… turn the page.
Furthermore, all those crowing over Glenn’s supposed fall from grace are those who have been hostile from the very start to what he and his colleagues are doing. There’s just no point engaging with people who have no intention of forming a fair judgement.
No these are Government funded muck makers, that make the muck, and then they try to rake it up. They try to present this sort of crap as some sensational scoop, and the discovery of the century. It is just a pathetic attempt to discredit, the few top quality investigative journalists who have more social conscience, intelligence and integrity than themselves. It is also a well known and underhand way of trying to divert attention, away from the revelations which are hurting them.
What a picky, jealous, spiteful comment! Some people are SO bitter and twisted and hateful of themselves.
Ginafonoy, sorry I can’t tell to whom this addressed, a problem related to formatting. I’ve tracked back up, but there are several indents, so I honestly cannot tell whom you’re addressing.
————————
I recognize that this is a new venture and understand that it will take time to perfect it, but it is really important that the comment section become more functional as quickly as possible. As it exists, one cannot tell to whom the responses are directed. A post might have ten indented ones, with some responding not to the original post but to another’s response with no way of telling which is which (as a stop-gap we should try to address the person we’re responding to). It’s difficult to find where one left off in the thread and therefore sustain the kind of debate that has been the life’s blood of these articles; there are no editing functions, etc.
I’m only saying this because the journalistic work here is so very fine and I want it to reach the widest audience possible. This article is a perfect example of that; it’s intended to correct the record, so it’s key that it have a broad readership. Sometimes form is function, and it is very hard to get a sustained conversation going with this format. With a better commenting board more people would come and stay.
Apologies if this has been addressed…but that’s part of the problem…I can’t find where I left off or see if others’ calls for changes have been answered.
Would like to echo Morning Minion here. Would also like to suggest a separate topic be created for readers to discuss and explore a suitable comment system for this site. Then those who are happy with it, or don’t want this discussion, could simply not go to that topic. Beyond basics for navigation there’s also of course the question of moderating, of a comment policy, etc. And MM is absolutely right on how serious the current state of dysfunction the commenting scheme is at this time. Sorry to say, and I know I’ve been on my high horse too much, the “we’re only three weeks along excuse” is too weak. It should have been fixed right away. And with this comment I will now say sayonara until it improves, or there’s opportunity to discuss it. It’s been fun. I look forward to the time when commenting here is efficient.
The other day I may have mispoken when I said asking questions should incur no wrath.
I have seen the light and it is dray, dread, dreay, a deep darkness down to the depths of the abyss. Depression sits there despairing. Dull hearted men sit there deceived. Dross and it sleeps not. Why not let me sleep instead. No rest for the wicked.
Sorry Nate.
To be fair the circles that applaud the Ukrainian protesters as noble freedom fighters and those that oppose the protesters and their agenda, so their is not contradiction. Paul Craig Roberts and Stephen Lendman have written some good articles about the Ukraine protesters. A lot of them are complete monsters who idolize the Hitler collaborator Stephen Bandera. http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/02/23/democracy-murdered-protest-ukraine-falls-intrigue-violence/
http://sjlendman.blogspot.com/2014/02/fascisms-ugly-face-in-ukraine.html
Here is an article by Seumas Milne. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/29/ukraine-fascists-oligarchs-eu-nato-expansion
Are you going to do some reporting on the crisis in the Ukraine? This might start World War III.
World War III started in Yemen two minutes after World War II ended!
Nah,1948,in Palestine,accompanied by the creation of the CIA,which may be linked.
Didn’t the NSA have a bunch of people working on discrediting you guys? Why would they not attempt to discredit you, make you look impartial, try and associate you as being on the “other” side, evil doers and all the rest.
We believe what we choose to believe, the truth is what we want it to be. For in reality that is how things work, there is no way we can know all the facts so we happily delude ourselves into thinking we are well informed and go with the story that we like best. It is called cogitative bias.
Even journalists do this, cognitive bias is just a part of life, the nsa clearly ave a plan to use cognitive bias to influence “the people” and that includes journalists.
The reality is that there are lots of things people can misunderstand, there is a huge amount of grey if we were rational we would permanently vacillate between thinking one thing and another. So we plump for a story and then we run with it, only when the story is really seriously compromised do people start to give up believing it, even today there are people who still think Snowen is a traitor not a hero.
It will take a lot more than one or two stories to make any of us change our prejudices, we already have a story of who you are and who Pierre is.
I don’t question the journalistic independence of The Intercept, I am thrilled that it exists, but fact is that in our world/societies also true journalism is an ornament of those in power and a toy in hands with an own agenda and a (maybe invisible but) firm grab.
Almost every time the USA had a chance to do good over the past sixty years, it went to war instead.
Glenn, thank you for another great report, and for creating more awareness in your report, of the documentary called The Dirty Wars by Jeremy Scahill.
Keep up the great work !
why hasn’t Glen denounced the theft of my pen three days ago? Does he support pen-theiving? Was he involved? .. his silence is telling!
There’s my laugh for the day. I’d also like to demand an article on where my dog’s clicker is. How dare he deliberately ignore such a burning issue?
I still wish Presumptuous Insect would market her t-shirts with the squirrel rapping at the window mouthing “But what about me, Glenn?” I’d give them as gifts.
Glenn Squirrel:
http://smg.photobucket.com/user/diannaruggles/media/glennsquirrel.jpg.html
Thanks Pedinska. Couldn’t have put my hands on that if I tried (too busy trying to find the clicker and keys). I’m sure you’re dreaming of your garden, as I am of mine. Will this winter ever quit? At least we have this new venture to keep us warm. Things are certainly getting *hot* on the political front.
Anyone want to explain why Glenn doesn’t support ”Nullify the NSA?”
or does raising this questions make me:
a. a troll
b. paranoid
or
c. Glenn already addressed that, I think, somewhere, anyone got the link?
Asking why Glenn does not support the NSA does’t make you a troll or paranoid.
It makes you simple minded with strong streaks of tunnel vision. Is Glenn Amnesty fucking International? Is he supposed to do and materially support every good thing in the world? How many people is Glenn Greenwald?
Isaiah, I liked that: ”Simple minded with strong streaks of tunnel vision”. What an eloquent ad hominem attack!! Are you a poet?
Hmmmm help me understand then and get out of this tunnel vision… Glenn is trying to bust the NSA by reporting that it is spying on everyone? Is that right? So, explain to my simple mind what is ultimate goal then? Just to inform everyone about the NSA? Is the the end goal. If so, I would recommend that you check out Panopticon theory by Bentham and later Foucault. Or what I call the ”you better watch out you better not cry” technique of controlling behavior, cuz ”NSA knows when you are sleeping, NSA knows when you are having a wank” (Optical Nerve program) ”NSA knows if you’ve been bad or good, so be good for goodness sake!”
Again help me with this tunnel vision…Why would he not support a group and an action that will disrupt and maybe close the entire illegal agency? Nullify the NSA is taking the next logical step and Glenn doesn’t make a peep about it. Makes zero sense in my simple minded tunnel vision reality! Help me please understand that by attacking my character, thank you!
The only thing worse than people who spew irrational evidence-free conspiracy theories are those who are too cowardly to state their theories explicitly, and rely instead on slimy tactics of innuendo such as “hmmmm” and asking a series of vague and pointless questions.
Just state your belief: you believe that I’m secretly working for or with the NSA, and that the objective of my stories is to make everyone aware of mass surveillance so that they will be kept in line and obedient to the National Security State, and that all the attacks on our journalism from government officials are just a ruse to cover up the fact that we’re really all working together.
That’s what you believe, right? Why not say so. And also you should explain the role you think chem trails and 9/11 play in that plot.
Glenn, prepare to spend your journalistic life stating just that over and over again. Yeah people throw the same accusations to Noam Chomsky too. ‘If what he’s saying is true, what good is it just saying it? You need to have a way to fix it. Don’t be just a harpy. ‘
It’s a good thing you’re young and combative. You’ll need it, with all the lame brains of the world having internet accounts.
Glenn,
You are being disingenuous to say the least, but hardly surprising. Please read all of my comments. I HAVE mentioned REPEATEDLY my belief that as atheism is on the rise and therefore the ever watchful eye of god is leaving peoples psychological make up, the ruling elite need to replace it with something else. Viola! The NSA! It is spying on everything you do! Like I said in the above comment, I call it the: ”you better watch out” theory of control that parents subject their children too. Do I need to copy and paste it for you?
I HAVE mentioned the work of Jeremy Bentham and Michael Foucault MANY times in the comments under this article. I HAVE mentioned the Panopticon State of Mind MANY times as well. I gave the latest example of Optical Nerve spying on people masturbating, just as ‘god’ used to. I said that CLEARLY and connected it to the rise in athesim, and the freeing of peoples minds of the god is always watching complx. But you claim that I am a coward and do not state my belief. Ad hominem at it’s finest.
…Something to respect from such an important journalist such as yourself!
And thank you for bringing up chem trails I’m quite curious about this topic actually. I don’t know much about them admittedly but I can tell you that right now I can see from my window (on a clear day) planes flying into and out of Atatürk airport in Istanbul. They never leave a trail behind. Very strange indeed. Maybe these European planes are using some kind of different fuel? But I DIDN’T state that, contrary to what you have assumed I believe.
About 9/11. Do you believe the official story of 9/11? I sure don’t. I haven’t for years. And it doesn’t bother me when someone tries to smear me as a conspiracy theorist over it, I take it as a compliment as a matter of fact. So thank you Glenn :)
I wouldn’t be able to guess if you are working for the NSA, that is a bit of a stretch. But thank you for positing that as my belief even though I clearly DIDN’T state that, again another assumption.
However, as I D?D say before (what a coward I am!) I do think you are profiting handsomely off of public documents, even as you used to lambast public officials who hid behind walls of secrecy and made deals behind closed doors with secret information. Again, I said that before too. Or as you claim I am a coward and do not state my beliefs. Lol. Is that some form of double speak or just a blatant lie. Again go and read my comments.
And still no answer why you don’t support Nullify the NSA. It’s a very easy question. Quite logical. Or am I a coward who is asking irrational conspiracy theory questions?
does raising this questions make me: troll #5534343243
Just a stupid, jejune purist with a good dose of fanaticism.
Rasputin wept.
Okay I’ll bite. why did Rasputin, oh you are clever ras Putin.
Nobis you are noblis.
….Alex played fiddle…me an’ Anastasia faked our deaths there…in them old Bolshi fields back home…
Why so sad, Raspy? Couldn’t kill you critics? Folks were subject to hysterics and culty personalities when stressed out back in the day, just like last Sunday. (small bell cymbal choke) ((bass drum drop))
Yousouppov the invasion might not have been a good idea? Maybe a bit Kornilov, or are we Lenin the other way now?
– – –
Now you say you love me
Well, just to prove that you do
Come on and Crimea River,
Crimea River over you …
“…Telephone is ringin’…they tell me it is Chair…Man…Mao…
…I don’t care if it’s John Wayne, I just don’t want to talk to him, now…”
That’s a Crimean shame. Of course, I too saw in my hind Diane Keaton crying her eyes out as their clouds came crashing down. “What about the Crimea?!” Sorry, Stalin snagged it.
Are folks around here extra huffy and touchy or what? Everyone assumes I’m menacing. I’m just silly stringing GCHQ’s filters full of goop. Gooper says, “Hay,” GCHQ.
I don’t suggest you be GCHQ, I aside to them constantly throughout my performance.
In case replies are now being dumped to the bottom instead of beneath their intended recipients, this goes between Crimea River and Ian DeMartino’s comment. Good forbid the dada get out of order!
Don’t worry about people like them, they are only grasping at straws, attacking the men when they can’t attack the cause. It is clear that you crushed their arguments. Keep up the good work. Hunter S. Thompson made me realize Journalism could be cool, Scahill make me realize it could be dangerous (with blackwater), and you drove home the point to me that one story could change the world.
Glenn, I think people today don’t know lies from the truth because of people who claim to be journalists, but are just the mouth of an organization.
”Pierre writes more on our internal messaging than anyone else. This guy has a vision.”–Jeremy Scahill
Mr Griffith, your questions do need answering. It is the coziness of Mr Omidyar and the NSA that is worrisome to me. As is the attitude that seems to be: I want mine, the rest of your money can go wherever you want it to. AND yes all who don’t question are culpable. The writings of Mike Lofgren come to mind. Chem trails-you can’t tell me that grid lines in the sky are normal. 9/11-the former blog site The Intercept had many 9/11 questioners.
In fact, it is interesting how the people who excerpt that quote always seem to leave out that bit, it’s right between the first and last sentence you quote Mr. Griffith, yet you (and others) continue to edit it out and/or just ignore it as if it wasn’t part of what Scahill said.
Here is the full quote, beginning where you did, with the edited portion restored. So that people can, you know, judge for themselves:
And you think the restored context makes it less damning? Why is the non-journalist billionaire, the guy who controls the purse strings, contributing to the internal discussions of journalists if not to have influence?
Greenwald disingenuously asks, “How has my reporting changed?” But that’s the wrong question, because without a 360 degree view of the organization it’s not possible to supply a completely accurate answer. If you hold out a clenched fist and ask me, “what am I hiding inside,” I’m supposed to know?
Bottom point: If Omidyar has a vision, then the execution of same will eventually influence his decision to release or not release future funding for FLM. Further, Greenwald can’t possibly know the full dimensions of Omidyar’s vision, which means he has to trust Omidyar to some degree. This obvious fact shouldn’t be ignored or diminished.
It’s pretty obvious that Omidyar’s money is in deep in some of the worst Right Libertarian austerity projects going, whether Glen cares to look into it or not. I wrote about it here:
http://libcom.org/library/pierre-omidyar-giving-until-it-hurts
Why the corrupt anti-democratic philanthropolitics of Omidyar would not be of any concern to the Intercept, I can’t say. It seems a contradiction until you consider that Omidyar funded what he knew was going to be a GOVERNMENT watchdog. The private sector apparently has the right to decieve and enslave us all they want. That’s just the free market at work.
If he believes that “the private sector has the right to deceive and enslave us all they want” then hiring Matt Taibbi was probably not a good move.
Yes, you have posted the same comment now three times now, and in different names. 11-39. 11-47 and now 12-52. Saying the same BS over and over again wont make people believe it. I am going home now to do watch my goldfish, because even that is much more exciting than reading what you call journalism. Yawn, yawn.
Sorry bout the multiple posts, it seemed like the first one did not go through so I reposted. When that did not go through, I tried again. I didn’t see them up finally until today. I assumed someone was not allowing them and gave up.
And if you don’t see the difference between Omidyar’s media goals and a working class press it might be that you need to read some labor history.
Have experienced delays of four hours for posts with lots of links, but obviously no one is moderating.
So don’t repost unless you like looking like a reiterating idiot. That would be just like me. I would think they want to filter proffered links. Any old icehole could set up a sucker’s click trap for a bunch of hungry honey badgers. You know not to eat the candy house, right? Geesh, that witch is a bitch. I typically don’t use those words but I’m out of character, today.
Several points.
1) Good rebuttal, Glenn. I knew that was a hit piece several sentences in. (Read it several days ago).
2) Carl Summers seems to be “Wretched & Embittered”™
3) Yabbadabbadoo drones on a lot.
4) Good to see ya, rollotomasi!
5) Thank you for no ads, Glenn.
6) Please, in the new comment section- NO NESTED COMMENTS. Or AT LEAST have a feature that informs you someone has replied to your post(s). (Democratic Underground has this)
Radio Edit: Craig Summers (sounds like a character from the Salon days)
Pretty sure we picked up Craig Summers at the Guardian.
Well the way this world is at the moment with all of the endless intrigue is don’t trust any of them especially sometimes yourself. I wish somebody would pay my rent – but oh the sweetness of purity is my mine. No one has bought my opinion in the least. When I saw that there was another massive security breach I thought well finally something for which poverty is good for. I have nothing in the bank to steal and since I just post in the open not even an idea left in the dark.
Glenn is too defensive/ obsessive. This is a non-issue, and the long response is a waste of his time and makes him seem somewhat thin skinned for a person of his stature.
No, I don’t believe he is “too defensive” the failure to address any fairly widely disseminated attack will inevitably be taken as acquiescing , on their terms.
It used to annoy me, I now believe he’s right.
I couldn’t bring myself to finish the Pando article. It’s disheartening to know that rot like that requires a response, let alone one this well set out.
I’m surprised by the degree of confidence that the Yanukovych regime in Ukraine was legitimate and better than the populist revolution. I do myself cringe at the US involvement and saber rattling. But this is more complicated than some completely contrived situation of a US sponsored coup. I just don’t feel informed enough by a college professor on Democracy Now to sit in judgement. Maybe there are many more occupy types in this uprising than fascists or aspiring Euro-capitalists. Certainly many people of the region are desperate and sick of corruption and trying to get a better deal and it takes guts to rise up and force change. While I would not trust a US approved ” interim leader”, I wonder what should be the strategy to free themselves from both corruption and the tyranny of allegiance to an ethnic majority. Maybe they should divide though rather than have a civil war. I hope there will not be a war since that will likely lead to something like Egypt.
“populist revolution”? I think you misspelt “fascist coup”. Yanukovych may have been a neo-liberal slime ball, but he was, at least, an elected neo-liberal slime ball. And some of these folks who are now in power make Tony Soprano look like Gandhi.
Now the US’s man “Yats” is going around declaring that his aim is to be the “most unpopular prime minister in history” – and he has these revolting thick-necked thugs to make sure no one complains about it.
The situation in the Ukraine is truly terrifying. And people like you – who distend you snake jaws and swallow the propaganda in big, thick slabs – are part of the problem.
Guest I am so sick of your approach–I know more than you do so let me fill you in you moron and why don’t you stop being a puling stupid. This is the attitude you’re conveying.
It’s pretty obvious that Omidyar’s money is in deep in some of the worst Right Libertarian austerity projects going, whether Glen cares to look into it or not. I wrote about it here:
http://libcom.org/library/pierre-omidyar-giving-until-it-hurts
Why the corrupt anti-democratic philanthro-politics of Omidyar would not be of any concern to the Intercept, I can’t say. It seems a contradiction until you consider that Omidyar funded what he knew was going to be a GOVERNMENT watchdog. The private sector apparently has the right to decieve and enslave us all they want. That’s just the free market at work.
Rats, I thought you were the other David Carr. Not that there’s anything wrong with being just you.
O shouldn’t interfere with what they do and money shouldn’t stop anyone from doing good. If all money had by bad was gone, you’d be tossing wooden nickles. Money makes the world go round, that clinking stinking sound. At least it’s not going for the other causes he funds that you don’t like, right?
I don’t think it’s impossible to have good reporting even when funded by the ruling class, as most news media is, so Glenn has a point. But he’s oblivious to the fact that Omidyar funds him specifically because of his (Omidyar’s) Libertarian slant. To come out and try to minimize Omidyar’s co-funding of a right wing coup is grotesque.”I don’t care because it doesn’t effect MY journalism.” Ha ha, well then get to work blowing the lid of Omidyar’s right libertarian trail of destruction! Maybe Matt Taibbi will do that, but I’m not holding my breath.
There’s a whole journalistic series waiting simply by covering what Omidyar’s money does. But you won’t see this focus in the Intercept because they mostly lack any kind of class analysis, focusing instead on Big Government, just as Omidyar, Bill Gates, and all the other billionaire philanthropist neoliberal capitalists want them to. Were you aware that they are attacking the last vestiges of unionism and dismantling public education with their philanthropy? Were you aware that the Omidyar Foundation has pushed the Teach For America model, one of the most notoriously anti-teacher, pro-charter, anti-union, models, that he has created a global model of TFA? These things are not random. They fit the pattern of free market conservatism cloaked in a thin veneer of leftism (support gay marriage, check up on the cops, fight eminent domain, but free up every aspect of society to be devoured by the private sector in the belief that it lifts all boats).
Anyway, you can read my article or not, and most won’t care to or won’t have time because they won’t feel the motivation based on their narrow interests in the security state, and the abuses of Big Brother. What I offer is at least an attempt at placing it in a class context, which is exactly the context of the austerity we all face. I’m not a professional journalist, just a working person.
I sing the apolitical blues ’cause they’re the meanest blues of all, but I am not shocked that a Libertarian is funding free press and civil rights advocates’ work to reveal duplicity by our government and others’.
I am surprised that Libertypes fall for Rand Pauls fall all over ya’ll. If he wanted to, he could call for expulsion of Dianne Feinstein, but he’s not gonna go rocking their secret boat. That might leave them both high and dry without bait.
Don’t make me take off these earrings and score you like a testing system might. I detest the present state of education, why do you think i quit? Your criticism of it is text book, sorry I already lived the course.
I found your story to be derivative in a big bland sort of way having sorted through it until i concluded you have a bone too pick, so why no whistle? You say a whole lot of baseless BS, because you don’t bother to assert your claims in facts.
So get back to where you left those attributions. Put them back, Jack. If you’re going to surf the literal stream, you either let go and go with the flow or you got to drag your journalistic ball and chain, bro. You ain’t got enough ground to establish your broad assertions. So say my cistercians, and they are picky little fryers.
I bet I could string a few things together to suggest you control the weather. What’s this thunderous shitstorm falling on the real story? Hasn’t Marcy figured out why Holder was so unfeeling? Her story suggest this is all really his fault. Does it NOT? He and assorted cabinet clowns much like a comical Tea Pot Blown.
Such a wasted effort, this isolated gab fest making zero contact outside the base when we might have some good intel to promote! Can we fairly say Eric Holder is a goat? See Marcy’s story before which she wrote.
Chupacabra! Eric Holder liked your Grandma!
Christbait, is that you?
It’s pretty obvious that Omidyar’s money is in deep in some of the worst Right Libertarian austerity projects going, whether Glen cares to look into it or not. I wrote about it here:
http://libcom.org/library/pierre-omidyar-giving-until-it-hurts
Why the corrupt anti-democratic philanthro-politics of Omidyar would not be of any concern to the Intercept, I can’t say. It seems a contradiction until you consider that Omidyar funded what he knew was going to be a GOVERNMENT watchdog. The private sector apparently has the right to deceive and enslave us all they want. That’s just the free market at work.
Some people are trying to deny that Marcy Wheeler called the events in Ukraine a coup. She not only did that, but she wrote it was a coup orchestrated by the US. It’s absolutely silly and a waste of time to deny this. She did so repeatedly. Here is just one tweet:
Of course it was a coup. Who is denying that?
Some commenters lower down on the thread who denied that Wheeler ever said it was a coup.
At WHAT point will the master dbators wake up and understand that this is not what ANYONE but obsessive debbaters enjoy reading? Seriously, I like a good bitch slap, but this is heat and we’ve all fallen for it like a blind missile.
I appreciate Glen is marvelous at logical arguements, but if ANYONE thinks this worth sharing at the watercooler…If you think I can empty a room, you ain’t seen nothing yet.
“See, this panda made some cistercians about the Intecpeptor’s creds and political threads, so we had to go off line for a good while to show how great we are at forgetting the essential mission. INFORMATION, PLEASE!
LOL…What a pathetic response…
Glenn gets exposed and his jimmies are rustled
To Glenn Greenwald and the staff at The Intercept.
There is something wrong with the code that manages the comments on your site. It displays some comments and not others and the difference is dozens of comments are not displayed seemingly at random and at other times they are displayed.
For example depending on the address or the link to the story it either displays 311 comments or 257 comments.
I noticed this too. Try clearing your browser’s cache. Worked for me. Cheers.
Nate wrote:
Your confusion — the reason you erroneously think you’ve spotted hypocrisy on Glenn’s part — is that you fail to understand that Glenn is, very specifically, judging all these people by their abominable “journalism.” It’s in complete conformity with the expectations of their centrist, Establishment culture and the kinds of people who fund centrist think tanks.
He’s arguing: “These people spew bullshit. But that’s what passes for journalism in their milieu.”
To the extent, however, that any journalist at any outlet actually practices good journalism, Glenn has never shown any interest in how that journalist is funded.
And who are “those people”? I find that they are often people who disagree or ask him tough questions. I don’t recall him harshly assessing the character of a like-minded individuals.
No shit, Sherlock. Like-minded individuals practice or approve of adversarial journalism. Like-minded individuals are not corporate or national security-state lackeys. Like-minded individuals are not “access journalists.”
Glenn writes contemptuously of soi-disant journalists who operate as govt/corporate stenographers and/or cheerleaders. These are, indeed, not like-minded with him.
http://www.oldielyrics.com/lyrics/lowell_george/easy_money.html
LOWELL GEORGE
“Easy Money”
(Jones)
There was Glenn
Leanin’ on the back door
A couple shills with their eyes on a couple bills
Their eyes was statin’
They was waitin’
To get their hands on Omidyar’s easy money
They flipped a dime
Ames said ‘ well, I’ll take heads this time’
One stepped up
One stepped back
Ames loosened his shoulder strap
He couldn’t speak,
His knees got weak
He could almost taste that easy money
There was this old black cat
Sittin’ in a old black cadillac
The joe smelled sweet
She curled up at her boyfriend’s feet
She said ‘i got a plan
Listen, sam, how’d ya like to make some easy money ? ‘
He say, ‘yes! oh yes!
Jus’ tell me what you want me to do ‘
She said, ‘baby, you can trust me
Baby, but you must be smearing in the Pando
At a quarter to two’
Well, the cat told the boy
‘come up to the room and play with my toy’
But the shill set the bait
And He wasn’t gonna sit around and wait
But this Glenn was wise to all the lies
And he flies out the door
With the easy money
Because there ain’t no journo
Who got the money in his hand
Who got any of that bread
Bein’ slow in the head
The easier it looks
The hotter it hooks
There ain’t no such thing as easy money
We say, ‘yes! oh yes!’
Saturday night
There was a terrible, terrible fight
Between two (d)ames who was losin’ the same game
It wasn’t clear,
But I hear somebody was lookin’ for some easy money
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWEUPB5XHjE
What a twat you are!
Language is a virus, but you be really sick. You do not attribute your parody to the author, and you have to do it well or folks get sued these days for ripping off good stuff just to be insulting. If you are going to play around with sound, you gotta get the beat down. I should be able to tell who you are riffing off and then you give them credit. So, obviously this song went on too long and failed to perform as advertised.
You want to make fun of scandal profiteers, take a shot at Woodward, he’s really aged badly. He was better when he had something suppressed to share. I could give a shite what he pundits these days.
“…The same people you abuse on the way up, you might meet up…on the way down…” Thanks. Lowell.
1. You can have something floating out in the public record that would have no significance in the past but would suddenly become important. This cold information about Omidyar’s participation in Ukraine’s astroturph opposition becomes hot once additional information makes it relevant. This change in temperature occurred once Omidyar financed “First Look”, a media venture destined to write about Ukrainian opposition.
2. A longstanding misconception of the U.S.’s meddling in the Ukraine applies to most, but not all the people in the landscape of independent journalists:
William Engdahl Exposes the Western Agenda in Ukraine
http://www.corbettreport.com/interview-830-william-engdahl-exposes-the-western-agenda-in-ukraine/
3. There are many examples of how ownership affects coverage and, if you ask us to judge by the quality of journalism and coverage in your stories, I can immediately ask for more analysis of false flag events like Gulf of Tonkin, 9/11, election fraud, Sandy Hook, emergency detention camps, Raymond Davis, etc. Not to say that there hasn’t been good reporting so far, but the audience does not know why other stories that are equally verifiable are passed over.
“Are Chris Hayes and Rachel Maddow responsible for all the bad acts of Comcast, which owns MSNBC, or is their journalism impugned by those bad acts?” Two horrible examples, but thanks for pointing out one potential explanation for why those two can be so obtuse.
4. I will then wait for the massive pdf file containing all of Snowden’s documents. Waiting to download.
5. See answers to 2 and 3.
Ultimately, you can’t blame people for questioning the potential conflict (overt or covert) that could arise out of such a well connected sugar daddy. That sort of suspicion is what comes with the package. You’re right when you let your reporting be your best defense against the shadow of this discrepancy.
Then you’ll be waiting a very long time. For Greenwald has said he entered an agreement with Edward Snowden not to release all the documents, but rather, to vet them and only publish those deemed to be in the public interest.
Do you think Greenwald should basically tell Snowden to fuck off, and just publish them all anyway? (He’ll never do that, but I am curious about whether you think he should.)
That’s going to depend on who you believe. Who’s vetting the documents?
http://www.globalresearch.ca/video-secrets-for-sale-and-the-snowden-affair-the-greenwaldomidyarnsa-connection/5364393
Maybe Snowden can state publicly and independently the nature of this exchange of documents.
@J.T. Waldron
“Maybe Snowden can state publicly and independently the nature of this exchange of documents.”
He did but unlike the sources you use they don’t seem to want to acknowledge answers to the questions they pose ……….Which are readily available
Snowden in his own words
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f93_1390833151
I’ll help you out here, a couple of times after questions posed to Snowden in the interview he answers by not want to break the editorial process of the journalists, that’s plural man, because they are in charge of what is in the “public interest” and what should be published ……………. I really don’t think it can be any clearer than that …….;)
This supports my first point. To request all the documents now. Let the public decide what’s “in the public’s interest”.
The monstrous hypocrisy shown by Obama threatening Putin “not to interfere in the sovereign politics of Ukraine'; while proof of interference by US NGO and state department employees in Kiev has been categorically established by release of Ass.Sec.State Nulands infamous recorded phone conversation in Kiev with US Ambassador to Ukraine Pyatt, discussing intimate details of their intentions post revolutionary Ukraine (“F uck the EU”) – and Senator John McCain posturing with Neo-Nazi Svoboda Party leader Oleh Tyahnibok , Kiev, December 15 2013;
crosses all boundaries of reason and is staggering in its implication.
Glenn:
My hypocrisy meter is about to explode. Glenn, you are one of the biggest perpetrators of this type of ad-hominem attack. How many times have I heard you dismiss someone or an organization as government lapdogs or attack someone’s character? I bet I could make a pretty long list.
Nate! Give it up man! Do some reading please!
That response made no sense.
Nate, I’m going to make this one last attempt. I wish you well. I’ve got to let you in on what you need to know.
To begin, your quotation has nothing to do with your comment so your message is incoherent. But you clearly are doing the same thing you’ve done before, with your main objective: attack GG. When I say read more I mean you should go to the bottom of this page and start reading upward. Also follow the links. Read the latest Pando smear. Come back tomorrow when you know more. This means I’m advising you to try to get in touch with the context of what’s going on. With this kind of comment you have made you are showing how out of touch you are. People are fed up with the approach you’re taking. As I told you the other day it’s YOUR credibility that’s at stake, not GG’s. You are like the yapping pit bull next door that won’t shut up. It’s highly self-oriented. It’s paranoid. It’s pathetic.
Ditto re Joseph K Junior’s reponse to this posting by Nate.
No, actually it makes perfect sense. Glenn said the issue for him is not “the political views of those who fund journalism” and that “journalists should be judged by the journalism they produce.” I call that hypocrisy because it is true:
So we have two key points: journalist should be judged by the journalism they produce, not the funding or organizational connections they have. I completely agree with this notion! But Glenn? Not so much. Let’s see:
Example 1: When he went after Benjamin Wittes of Brookings. He said:
“That’s why Brookings is so lavishly funded.” That is explicitly stating that their viewpoints exist because it is what their funders want. That is hypocrisy.
Example 2: GG’s attack on Daveed Gartenstein-Ross.
So this guy doesn’t have legitimate beliefs, he simply does his style of journalism to get paid, and hence – his “lucrative career.” Ad hominem attacks and hypocrisy.
Example 3: Condemnation of the dastardly mainstream media
So again, he doesn’t direct his attacks with any specificity at journalistic articles. He condemns EVERYBODY because they “get their benefits from government” by serving the government’s agenda. AKA, you don’t agree with me, your a gov’t shill.
Example 4: Glenn Greenwald implied that this national security journalist had a conflict of interest issue because he used to be a federal contractor [http://joshuafoust.com/pathetic-slap-from-lying-bully/]
Funny how applicable this is now.
Example 5: His interview with Esquire where he again generalizes entire groups as being “basically nothing.”
“JOURNALISM SHOULD BE JUDGED BY THE JOURNALISM THEY PRODUCE.”
H Y P O C R I S Y.
Example 6: One of my favorites. Another condemnation of the entire media
I think this backs my claim up quite fine on why he’s a hypocrite. The guy who constantly judges swathes of journalists as paid shills and government sponsored hacks, is here saying that “journalists should be judged by the journalism they produce…”
That’s just cute.
Error correction: was describing a GG quote but accidentally said he called people “basically nothing.” Forgot to finish that quote so it is wrong and out of context. Sure wish we could edit posts…
The guy who constantly judges swathes of journalists as paid shills and government sponsored hacks, is here saying that “journalists should be judged by the journalism they produce…”
If you study the mainstream media and judge them by the journalism they produce, you inevitably will reach the conclusion that a large percentage of them are indeed paid shills and government sponsored hacks. So while some statements by Greenwald may be too sweeping, I am sure he could and has, backed them up with plenty of specific examples.
Hypocrisy would be applying a different standard to himself. But the standard – being judged by what you produce – is being applied consistently.
I am never ever going to fall asleep so I am amusing myself by pondering this. Nate, you seem a bit oblivious to opposing viewpoints, but regardless, you obviously put some work into that comment and rounded up a bunch of examples. Thoughts:
1. While technically whether or not GG is a hypocrite has no bearing on his actual work and most certainly not the factual claims he presents, I actually understand the idea of wanting someone to be a good person as well as a good professional. The old go to “You have to separate the work from the person” (something Greenwald says when it comes to Chomsky / Assange and tone-trolling, actually) is intellectually true but takes the heart out of things. There are plenty of people who have produced beautiful art, innovation, businesses, and have been important social leaders (a la, allegedly, Morris Dees) who were also seemingly loathsome human beings that acted as petty tyrants to the people closest to them. Say “you have to separate…” all you want, it’s still terribly disappointing. And yet for all the claims of ‘narcissism’ you see about GG, he shows the reverse pattern – people close to him seem to find him a reliable good guy. Human with all the associated foibles, no doubt, but not ‘you should see him behind closed doors’. Which brings me to…
2. Maybe I’m being biased, but in that respect I think the brutal bluntness is kind of a good thing. Yes, the ability to read people well and analyze strengths and weaknesses means that some of those jabs are going to hurt. I’m actually sympathetic to his opponents in that sense – again, sometimes the old “You have to separate” is bull. An argument that makes a person feel ridiculous or gets to the heart of their weak points, while effective, can still be hurtful, I think that’s totally valid. Let’s be honest, if I ever had to argue with Greenwald there’s a good chance I would throw something at his head or sulk and not speak to him for a week. I don’t begrudge other people their feelings, but whether devastating or poorly aimed, I think he keeps his arguments out in the open. No passive aggressive, angry smiles, behind-closed-doors kind of stuff – I’ll just smile politely and try to ruin your career behind your back. I actually think that’s tougher in the short term but probably better overall.
3. To your examples – that’s not him saying this person is fat or ugly or a bad parent or something, or, more where you were going with it, that one of their sponsors works for an evil cosmetics company that tests products on baby animals ergo they are associatively tainted. As I said above – yeah, I can see how those would sting, because there’s a personal element – *but it directly relates to the point being made* about the journalism. That to me is key. Otherwise, yeah, it’s just nastiness. And the reverse is true – if people see a point to be made in GGs case, well, I think they should make it. Thus far, though, it’s been “OMG he’s not writing about Russia!” which doesn’t stick, to my mind (he never did pre-Intercept, after all), but they should feel free to make those points.
4. Related to the above, of course that will only come up in disputes / disagreements. That’s like saying “You don’t see him disagreeing with people he agrees with!” Well, I mean, of course not, that’s kind of an oxymoron. Again, if he were simply attacking – sans any sort of rhetorical point, especially related to his work / stories – the credibility, careers, authenticity, etc., of anyone he didn’t like, that would be a bit different. But I haven’t seen that.
@ Nate
Can you please park yourself in some other website? You really are an obnoxious fool.
<Blockquote Can you please park yourself in some other website? You really are an obnoxious fool.
Strange, don’t remember you. But how about this: If you can provide a compelling reason of why I should leave, I will consider it. Be specific please!
Be specific?
Can I be blunt as well?
Because you are wasting valuable bandwidth.
Another substantive response! I further elaborated on my initial post above so feel free to read it.
@Nate
” If you can provide a compelling reason of why I should leave, I will consider it. Be specific please!”
You are obviously not enjoying your stay in this website, unless of course someone is paying you by the hour to do so. Your posts are, to say politely, most obnoxious. You can definitely contribute meaningfully in some other website that may host contorted ideas and what you call news. Take abbadabba with you please, he can give you some company on the way.
Actually, with the exception of GG’s articles, I am enjoying myself a lot. I like Jeremy Scahill, I enjoyed Dan Novack’s article on the DOJ – the best read in my opinion thus far. I also liked the one on Drone Strikes of weddings (Deveraux). I engaged in conversation with both individuals. So no – you know nothing about me and I have every right to not only post here but to be critical. I have been respectful and have backed my words with evidence and examples. And what do I get from you – the implication that I am a paid shill. As I’ve said before, while I think GG sensationalized material, he has access to leaked material and therefore I will continue coming here to view it.
The part that kills me is that you and others call my posts “obnoxious” but cannot explain why.
This is a reply to your longer argument about GG’s proposed hypocrisy.
1) The brookings institute is not a journalistic enterprise and does not rely on their ability to report news nor on their writers’ ability to be published in the journalistic marketplace.. They are a think-tank engaged in apologetics for their financial supporters and for western capitalism and the militarized security state in general. What GG is saying is not that they are secretly corrupted by the funders’ goals, but that they openly align with those goals and try to promote them because it is their chosen career path. There is no hidden coercion or tainting of journalistic integrity implied; only an argument that this apologetics for empire has successfully labeled itself centrism.
2) I think you have a good argument here. GR could be sincere. But GG’s point still stands regardless of whether money is GR’s motive. . There is more money to be made in perpetuating the dominant and very contrived myth of a massive terror threat than in pointing out how the absurdity and hypocrisy of the same even though those are powerful and obvious moral arguments which are widely held. There is more money because there are far more outlets ready to pay you for this POV.
3) You need to read more carefully. He doesn’t say All journalists get their information from the government and report it uncritically. He says this happens “all the time”. That is just a fact of the majority of mainstream reporting, the regular fare, and it really is unusual to find anything different other than a partisan critique of Government propaganda. There is very little consistent independent non partisan moral or constitutional evaluation of government information. And such voices are increasingly marginalized. Again he criticizes what happens all the time not all journalists.
4) Here he is describing the nature of specific corporate sponsored news enterprises. If you can point to clearly exceptional and independent journalists from either one I will be surprised. They don’t look at the deep state, they don’t look at the deep similarity in governance and of the 2 parties. They don’t look at the criminality of corporate or military behaviors.
exactly this! thank you for helping to put out fires set by oblivious would-be-contrarians.
^^^ Obviously this is Mark Ames in another Adderall-induced fit of gross psychological projection.
…meaning “Nate” is Mark Ames, as is “Common Tater.”
All of the sudden I am supposedly Mark Ames, the guy we had not heard of until today. Keep telling yourself that this is all some underhanded effort to discredit GG. It just makes you look ridiculous. I had a really long post from a couple days ago. Compare and contrast my writing style and back this argument up! I look forward to your analysis.
…and then he promotes a worthless digression. such integrity! such focus!
please strive to grasp the difference between (a) criticism and analysis of behavior (not character, i.e. not ad hom) and (b) actual hypocrisy. (and tangential to that, has it sunk in yet that you’re petulantly ~spelling out~ the word, all in caps, while you sling incoherent accusations of ad hominem attacks?)
good luck! we’ll all be better off if you gain coherence.
@babaganusz:
And how is what I said a “worthless digression” when I took the words directly from GG’s article!? He made the claim about journalists being judged by their journalism. I merely commented on that. If you feel I should comment on other elements of the article or Pando’s article, all you have to do is ask!
But do me a favor – back up your words. You disagree with my several examples demonstrating GG’s hypocrisy. Let’s hear why.
As for spelling out the word “hypocrisy,” if that is the most “petulant” thing I have done, I think I have succeeded in keeping my discussion quite respectable. Perhaps it was dramatization, but it’s certainly no worse than your accusation that I lack of coherence; a matter that nobody other than you has informed me of.
Your “hypocrisy meter?” How’s that “pervometer” doing, “Nate”?
http://www.chicagoreader.com/chicago/beast-in-the-east/Content?oid=902762
Search for the word “pervometer.”
http://www.chicagoreader.com/chicago/beast-in-the-east/Content?oid=902762
Well, at least your blog is well named, Glenn. The two comments I posted, the first that what the media doesn’t write about is as important as what it does, and the second, questioning your prideful ignorance in the political background of Mr. Omidyar, you seem to have “intercepted” before they were posted. So it goes, and only after 20 days.
alas, one runs the risk of looking foolish when one makes assumptions based on what one cannot see.
So this means that if you have editorial freedom then you have no problem working for Fox News or any news organization regardless of where it is in the political spectrum?
http://foxnewsboycott.com/resources/fox-can-lie-lawsuit/
Aren’t you aware of Jane Akre and Steve Wilson? You should educate yourself properly before dashing off your mind.
Glenn…you don’t to respond to every attack on your integrity! Go back on the offensive! lol Keep up the good work. I’ll be watching the Academies for Jeremy, but being nominated for his film is already a victory.
That Greenwald, an investigative reporter, writes of Omidyar, “That’s because his political views and donations are of no special interest to me,” I find astonishing but no less so than Greenwald’s not caring about or questioning Omidyar’s support and de facto collaboration with the US government in overthrowing the elected government of the Ukraine.
it would be honestly astonishing if there had ever been such a thing as a Comprehensive Resource Of Everything Glenn Greenwald Cares About, and that item had been prominently displayed on it
on the other hand, try paying better attention and hopefully your astonishment will reach understandable levels.
People who engage in pissing contests with Glenn Greenwald generally end up very wet.
What’s taking so long for comments to be posted?
“What all this adds up to is a journalistic conflict-of-interest of the worst kind: Omidyar working hand-in-glove with US foreign policy agencies to interfere in foreign governments, co-financing regime change with well-known arms of the American empire — while at the same time hiring a growing team of soi-disant ”independent journalists” which vows to investigate the behavior of the US government at home and overseas, and boasts of its uniquely “adversarial” relationship towards these government institutions.”
This appears to be the money shot in Ames’ Pando article, and I can see why Glenn reacted to it so strongly. His implicit assumption is that Omidyar exerts a Roger Ailes – level of control over all First Look publications. Omidyar = Hearst in Ames’ telling.
There are only 3-4 significant problems with that analysis:
1) Only one First Look publication is up and running, and its focus in not international affairs per se, except insofar as they segue with civil liberties.
2) There is not yet any indication that Omidyar has or will exert any influence on these writers. Their topics and style of coverage are exactly the same as ~2 months ago, when they wrote for Emptywheel, the Guardian, etc.
3) All these writers have been more or less major thorns in the side of the neo-liberal elite at times. To tie them in with a neo-liberal Sorosian plot against Ukraine’s Good Ole Boy mafioso is just…………. fucking hysterical. Greenwald especially, has been relentless in his opposition to some of their most favored plans and conceits (e.g. review his interactions with and coverage of the Man Who Would Be the Dems’ Richelieu – Cass Sunstein. Glenn’s lese majeste was quite amusing back in the day…… he was like a slice of Kraft American Cheese Food crumbled into Cass’ favorite arugula salad.)
Agree, except for one part of #3: I don’t see Glenn as some form of Kraft cheese. To take a line from the MTM show (Sue Ann Nivens), that would imply that he’s not only American but bland, tasteless, untouched by human hands. Velveeta he’s not.
Otherwise, yes, it’s a ridiculous conspiracy theory. But a trifle dangerous to pin on anybody, given that we’re somewhere between the (first) Crimean War and 1914. Especially if the President’s cheese is missing.
When American and European journalists, writers, artists, and intellectuals were recruited by the CIA to secretly facilitate Operation Mockingbird in the effort to neutralize post WWII European antipathy toward the west, the ensuing narrative resulted in an incremental diminution of communism’s appeal via “anti-Stalinist” polemics and literary diatribes against Western Marxists and Soviet writers and artists. Many of those on the “left” whose talents were “harnessed” by the CIA were allowed a considerable degree of latitude in the way that they facilitated the aim of marginalizing the “most radical” elements within their particular sphere of influence.
The same strategy was employed by the CIA in an effort to marginalize the most conservative elements within American society during the 1950s. Assets like William F Buckley Jr. were provided with every mean by which the most “extreme right elements” within the Republican Party could be made to look “ridiculous” and/or “pathological.” As a result, the dividing line across which public political debate was conducted became gradually more liberal over time. By marginalizing the most conservative elements within the Republican Party, American conservatism was able to gradually take on the mantle of the moderate left which favored big government, corporate welfare, and the global aims of neo-liberal interventionism. By the time that Kennedy was assassinated in 1963, public opinion had shifted in a way that would make the passage of Johnson’s Great Society measures politically possible – including an escalation of US military presence in SE Asia. The shadow government had moved a giant step forward in the fulfillment of its “grand area” ambitions.
CIA-funded intellectuals were adept at maintaining the illusion that their particular brand of partisanship was driven by an incorruptible reverence for truth, justice and transparency. Likewise, they were masters at counterposing themselves to corrupted media “hacks” who were always depicted as being apparatchiks of the established political order. Those who truly harbored an incorruptible reverence for truth, justice and transparency were uniformly labeled as extremists, kooks, and “conspiracy theorists.”
When American and European journalists, writers, artists, and intellectuals were recruited by the CIA to secretly facilitate Operation Mockingbird in the effort to neutralize post WWII European antipathy toward the west, the ensuing narrative resulted in an incremental diminution of communism’s appeal via “anti-Stalinist” polemics and literary diatribes against Western Marxists and Soviet writers and artists. Many of those on the “left” whose talents were “harnessed” by the CIA were allowed a considerable degree of latitude in the way that they facilitated the aim of marginalizing the “most radical” elements within their particular sphere of influence.
The same strategy was employed by the CIA in an effort to marginalize the most conservative elements within American society during the 1950s. Assets like William F Buckley Jr. were provided with every mean by which the most “extreme right elements” within the Republican Party could be made to look “ridiculous” and/or “pathological.” As a result, the dividing line across which public political debate was conducted became gradually more liberal over time. By marginalizing the most conservative elements within the Republican Party, American conservatism was able to gradually take on the mantle of the moderate left which favored big government, corporate welfare, and the global aims of neo-liberal interventionism. By the time that Kennedy was assassinated in 1963, public opinion had shifted in a way that would make the passage of Johnson’s Great Society measures politically possible – including an escalation of US military presence in SE Asia. The shadow government had moved a giant step forward in the fulfillment of its “grand area” ambitions.
CIA-funded intellectuals were adept at maintaining the illusion that their particular brand of partisanship was driven by an incorruptible reverence for truth, justice and transparency. Likewise, they were masters at counterposing themselves to corrupted media “hacks” who were always depicted as being apparatchiks of the established political order. Those who truly harbored an incorruptible reverence for truth, justice and transparency were uniformly labeled as extremists, kooks, and/or conspiracy theorists.
Sorry about the double post
Very insightful. Where should we put Noam Chomsky? I really admire his writings but his position on the Kennedy assassination and 9/11 is baffling.
Chomsky’s grasp of history is extraordinary and his devotion to scholarship is commendable. When he says that he lacks the knowledge to properly dissect the technical aspects of the unprecedented collapse of three steel-framed, high-rise buildings on 911, I believe him. I also believe that he is being sincere when he conveys the view that the shadowy events of the WTC attacks of 911 are irresolvable and therefore an unnecessary distraction. Personally, I do not share this view. If the goal of the 911 truth movement was merely to resolve the technically singular mystery of three steel-framed, high-rise buildings collapsing at freefall speed in a single day, then that alone would be worthwhile. However, he is right to compare the precipitating circumstances of the 911 WTC mystery to those of the Kennedy assassination as they both reek of tragic contrivance.
Chomsky is also right when he claims that the “masters of mankind” are engaged in an insidious campaign of “manufacturing consent” in service to their own selfish ambitions. Armed with this perception, he ceaselessly endeavors to expose the mechanisms by which public opinion is shaped by the “ruling elite.” I do not believe that he would engage in this effort if he didn’t believe that it was necessary to dispossess mankind of its manufactured illusions as a pretext to lasting positive change. I believe that a proper understanding of the contrived events that precipitated the unprecedented freefall collapse of three steel-framed, high-rise buildings on 911 would serve like ends in spades. One must first be willing to abandon illusion – where ever it exists – before reality is allowed to fill the void. Truth is not merely a loosely knit interweave of convenient fact. Rather it is a force that allows for the revelation of fact as an integral aspect of a composite reality.
Yep. The guy has a hair up his ass. Here, in his latest – what the hell ever it is – is what he thinks passes for cute and clever “Gothcha” lingo:
I really can’t say any thing less despicable about Paul Carr than that I see him as a voluminously deceitful jerk with nothing but mounds and mounds of horse shit to offer. I don’t get what the hell it is that he and Aames are trying to prove with their nonstop vitriol and deceitful fact challenged posts.
They might have had an article worth reading if they’d waited ~8 months, and backed up their assertions with facts. Like, if they’d documented a disturbing trend in the character of the articles published in The Intercept. They don’t have a troubling trend to report on because……… there just isn’t any damned trend yet. 3 weeks does not a record make.
I found an excerpt from a previous Greenwald piece:
Civil liberties are nice in theory, but in practice should never result in any restrictions on government action. Privacy is a ‘right’ fabricated by left wing theorists that is nowhere explicitly referenced in the Constitution. It is infuriating to think that government could be restricted from gathering personal data, when that data could potentially save us from terrorists. Concern about the information being misused is just liberal hand wringing, since we all know that government operates within a framework that ensures that its activities are authorized, necessary and proportionate, and that there is rigorous oversight.
As you read The Intercept, judge for yourself whether his professed beliefs have changed.
This reads like Glenn block-quoting an enemy, or on a sarcasm-rant. Link to it, or provide the title of the article.
The title of the article is “Why I decided to join the John Birch Society”. You can find it at Pando.
Actually I believe the hit piece link you wanted is to the (Even-The-Liberal) New Republic: “Would You Feel Differently About Snowden, Greenwald, and Assange If You Knew What They Really Thought?” by Wilentz. It’s neo-liberal rant that makes Ame’s accusations in Pando all the more amusing.
There are no posturing, entitled insiders who despise Glenn more thoroughly than the neo-liberals. None. Haut Establishment Dems and their think tankers hate him like a scorned lover.
How could he turn on them. He was destined to be one of their top boys, all the right education, all the right background, all the right stuff………. and he shat in their hands!!!!!!
It’s truly intensely funny. Or it would be, if it weren’t for the stench of coordination in their near-simultaneous publications……….
^^^ Hi, Mark Ames!
Hey, Common ‘Tater, is there some reason why you provided no link to your supposed quote? To supposedly quote someone verbatim without linking to it is, uh, to say the least, questionable behavior.
I’m afraid the link is encrypted and I don’t have the key. However, half the key can be provided by Mark Ames and the other half is contained in the Snowden documents. So all you have to do is arrange a meeting between Ames and Greenwald and you’ll have your link.
[“The title of the article is “Why I decided to join the John Birch Society”. You can find it at Pando.]
Tried the search feature @ Pando = no such article.
Tried the search feature @ Pando = no such article.
I believe the search feature at Pando is provided by Google, who of course are one of the Prism Partners with the NSA. So the search only works if you have previously written comments critical of Glenn Greenwald. Write some, and then retry the search.
That was very naughty Tater.
Tried the search feature @ Pando = no such article.
*Not trying to repeat myself – just trying to get quotes inserted correctly.
It was clearly sarcasm. Possibly with a mild hope that some crazy would start quoting it on Twitter to later be shot down. Naughty.
Another effing troll ….
I wouldn’t mind an article like Ames’ say 18 months from now……. if it included documentation of a deferential, constricted slant in The Intercept’s articles. It is just too early to assess the potential negatives of Omidyar’s influence, or any other flaws. It is far too early to document a tendency towards groupthink, repetitive coverage of only a few topics, etc. About the only thing I’ve noticed is that Greenwald’s article pick up remarkably high levels of attention from libertarian ultrarighties. His comments section is commonly choked with nutjobs. One can almost suspect they’ve been coaxed into following him by something beyond his inherent attractions. (Then again, his topics frequently grant them a sense of validation, so who knows. The English-speaking internet has been swimming in kooks since its inception.)
After ~6 months The Intercept and other forthcoming First Look publications will have track records worth examining. The time to critique those records is………. after they exist.
I did not know about Pierre Omidyar giving money …’ to a Ukraininan “pro-democracy” organization opposed to the ruling regime’, until I read this. And I certainly did not know about the acrimonious response to it addressed by GG. But I know that control of the flow of information, especially the content of the information, is a critically important component in controlling the world as a whole for those who have been shown to have an appetite for such. The nature of this information content and flow control often works counter government transparency and accountability.
Events occur. A narrative is created to explain it. And then the public response narrative is architectured and molded and fed back to the public to use as a response to the explanation. Example is liberties need to be taken away in order for societies to gain security. A public response narrative created by the same parties who are proponents of shredding liberties is ‘if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about.’ Some in the public, not amazingly, echo this even as they watch their own freedom vaporize into thin air, saying loudly: “I have nothing to hide…”
So it does not surprise me that this places Pierre Omidyar, by virtue of his declared intent to help fund “…leading organizations focused on advancing government transparency and accountability” in the cross-hairs for all manner of accusations. As has some true journalism.
Q. “Can someone please succinctly explain why this is a scandal that needs to be addressed, particularly by First Look journalists?”
A. Genius, it wasn’t a big deal in September 2011 because KIEV WASN’T IN FLAMES YET.
Q. “Wasn’t it just 72 hours ago that the widespread, mainstream view in the west (not one that I shared) was that there was a profound moral obligation to stand up and support the brave and noble Ukrainian opposition forces as they fight to be liberated from the brutal and repressive regime imposed on them by Vladimir Putin’s puppet? When did it suddenly become shameful in those same circles to support those very same opposition forces?”
A. Leaving aside your own confusion about who to “support” in Ukraine, if you don’t share the opinion that the “Ukrainian opposition” are a bunch of do-gooders, how about informing the public about what’s going on? Start by asking your Pal, Omidyar.
They say you know a tree by its fruit; and Glenn, your fruit has been consistently very, very good. That is enough for me. Also, thank you for a sorely needed laugh today in reading your response to ludicrous pando accusations.
How so?
Hi Kitt!
It only works for him because he selectively edited out – just completely ignored – the sentence in between the two he chose to support his argument. And others who are quoting his version of the quote are doing the same. The actual quote, beginning with the sentence he selects:
When one reads it in context it has a somewhat different, less piquant, flavor than that which Mr. Carr is advertising.
Hi backatya, Pedinska. It definitely is nice to finally, again, have a venue to interact on. And by “finally” I mean that this is way better than either The Guardian or even Salon. This is Unclaimed Territory with the territory expanded exponentially!
That’s correct, which of course I knew. I posted it that way to give either Carr or someone else here an opportunity to double down. But if replies to my comment didn’t come after a time, I intended to do precisely as you did by posting the context. So, thanks for that. I just now got back to review this comment board and was pleased that you had done the good work on that comment.
Glenn,
Till date there has not been a single word from you or the others in possession of Snowden files about the anti-virus software like Symantec, McAfee, Avast, Norton, Kaspersky, etc., that have complete control of the host machines and that can be used to trawl the disks and report back, all the while making the user feel safe under its watchful eyes, much like what the NSA brotherhood want us to believe it is doing for us. I just cannot believe that NSA is not using these programs, and that the Snowden files do not contain this evidence. Please, can you expedite this report? Thanks.
Many companies offer anonymity..You do not have to send or share any information to the company. There is usually an option allowing you to send suspect ‘unknown’ file findings back to the company for their analysis of the virus (not the content of the file, files the unknown but suss “virus?” is on).
Kaspersky, Malwarebytes and Avg all otffer this.
But you can choose to send no info to them.
To make sure they are not taking your files, run an internet performance meter to show uploading or its absence..
@James Fingleton Wild
“You do not have to send or share any information to the company.”
That’s somewhat reassuring, considering what we now know was happening to yahoo images and emails and telephone calls, don’t you think?
Well, they can be easily manipulated to do what NSA desires, but can pretend to follow your instructions. MPAA and the gang can also get snapshots of copyright violations, all thanks to the user that installed the software. I think it has potential to turn into a bigger scandal than MS allowing backdoor into their system.
I should tell you that i have all automatic updates turned off on my machine. This means I need to regularly update all my programs and applications. It does however stop chatter between the company and your machine.
As I say, if you have a graph going, showing uploads and something pops up you can search the processes and find what services are running.
Unless the NSA can hack the meter and show no uploads, then it is safe to say if you see nothing, no information has left your machine.
But vulnerbilities exist even on Adobe and with other known companies with counterfeit certificates and unsecure interactions.. Forged Java Script and malware aplenty from the NSA.
Get an isolating application to stop programs and run many antivirus programs. You have to run them one at a time and isolate the others when not in use.
I can not praise Kaspersky enough.
I have been on Linux for a decade now. I build my own desktops with parts bought from several local hardware shops. Occasionally, I run clamav, chkrootkit and rkhunter. I promptly disabled the wifi of my Cisco router provided by my ISP, and instead I use a more reliable router as AP. My SSID broadcast is disabled. And, for some apps, I run Windows only through a virtual machine with very limited folder sharing, so it is safe as hell.
So generally I am safe from prowlers, even though I don’t see any necessity to do all this and attract the attention of the spies.
My main worry is for the billions of people whose machines may have been compromised by free (who pays for them?) anti-virus tools.
Some of this software is called Rootkits and they come in a variety of flavours. I was hit by one as far back as 2003. It took over my system and acts at firmware level. The Operating System cannot see it, let alone your regular anti-virus program. It resides in a part of the system that by design, is inaccessible to the OS. Then, it masquerades as all your application programs. UI and all.
I found out when a text ill-fitted inside a text box of a Symantec anti-virus software I had running so that the words crossed the margins of the text box. The software had overlaid the genuine Symantec UI. And redirected attempts to update the database to some rogue server that always returned a message: “Your database is update.”
Then I dug deep. And deeper. And discovered that they had actually left the Virtual Rootkit code on my computer. C, C++ and Assembly. With all the comments on the code and what it did. The apparent assumption by the rogues that took over my system was that I was an old African woman who would never had a clue. But they were wrong. When I wrote Assembly code to query some entries, the computer locked up and would not even boot. I did not know who did it.
Today, I am tortured severely with neuro-weapons systems. My blood has light-emitting devices when viewed under a microscope. My scalp is a mangle from the severe pain of electronic and nanoparticle abuse. My body activates walking street signals when I come within range due to the multiple devices that have been illegally implanted in my body. And helicopters and bright twin-engined airplanes follow my every move. Five years. You think that may be costly and it probably is but 2.3 trillion dollars disappeared from the Pentagon on September 10 2014. I do not know where it went. No one knows. And an international organization that tested my body found multiple frequency emissions from various sites in my body.
Correction. The money went missing on September 10 2001. Not 2014 as erroneously stated above.
Kaspersky does a good job on rootkits.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acute_intermittent_porphyria
Just go fucking bush mate. Fuck off from the fucking city and go the fuck outback. Go as fucking far from fucking people and fucking technology as you fucking well can.
Every fucking night at fucking sunset tell the fuckers to fuck, the fuck off. Fucking oath, its the fucking right thing to do, you fucking know it, mate.
@Pat Burhan
I think there has been some serious attack on your CNS. Please visit your doctor and have it looked after. With proper medication this should get cured fast. Till then please avoid logging into firstlook.org as this could aggravate your situation, and ours too.
I’ve not read the Pando Article, but have read Marcy’s emptywheel Article, and the connections she has made cause me a great deal of discomfort regarding Omidgar and the US Govt interfering in Ukraine and promoting the violence that has ensued. By way of reference the Cuban Five comes to mind. How we jailed men for seeking to protect their country from terrorists and what are we doing, creating terrorist with Our Acts, Money, Directions in the same manner that the old Chicago Maffia did. But Today, its Our Govt and corporate billionaires that are the criminals. And does the Truth stop them? Will see but its stressing!
So, this is where all the convulsive left brains hang out :) Thanks for the clarification, Glenn. Wasn’t really needed though.
@ Glenn Greenwald,
There is one thing you need to clarify and that is that the Intercept won’t be the only outlet from this point on where new reporting on the remaining documents will take place. It’s not clear from your article here and I get the impression that the Intercept won’t be the only outlet drom what you have written in the past but it’s not clear.
Hmmm, nice to know that eBay Inc is one of the protected species … so much for investigative journalism …
The homunculus meeps.
Needless to say, his panties are still bunched and twisted. :-s
I get page not found, certificate error . . . ?
Has anyone clicked on and opened that link? I’m getting a “Nothing found” at that link.
https://pando.com/2014/03/01/on-the-importance-of-keeping-investors-out-of-the-newsroom-and-not-treating-your-readers-like-fools/%E2%80%9D
Not sure what’s happening to my links. I guess I’ll just post and folks can cut and paste:
http://pando.com/2014/03/01/on-the-importance-of-keeping-investors-out-of-the-newsroom-and-not-treating-your-readers-like-fools/
Well, Pedinska, like I said earlier paranoia strikes deep . . . there it is again in this new piece of BS you’ve linked for us, which uses the same kind of leaping and screaming to conclusions. I speculate the issue is serious intimidation by Glenn’s rejoinders in argumentation and the longing to out-do, to be better than, to discredit, to look brilliant. A giveaway, seems to me, in ANY argument, is the immediate move to demonize your opposition–as with here. Homunculus meeps! I like this phrasing.
. . . and if homunculus meeps is ad hominem, it’s sweet and elegant, and even the kind of thing you could say affectionately to somebody.
Looks like my comment got munched. I’ll try one more time before I rush out to the local Redbox to try and pick up a copy of Nebraska.
Regardless of the venue, no one has ever put a Gag Order on Glenn Greenwald.
Unlike, for example, MSNBC:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/21/msnbc-hosts-wga-petition-comcast_n_4830311.html
4 boxes of petitions, looking pretty substantial, c’mon Rachel, whadda ya say about this Comcast merger thing, hmmm . . .
“When did it suddenly become shameful in those same circles to support those very same opposition forces?”
Perhaps when the opportunity to smear Target Greenwald presented itself?
Great job seizing your opportunity to clarify your editorial independence, Glenn. There aren’t many who write so cogently and forcefully, in any case, and almost none who do it so damned raidly. ;-)
The point of Greenwald’s post can be summarized in Greenwals’s own words as ” Journalists should be judged by the journalism they produce, not by those who fund the outlets where they do it.”
For almost a year now, Greenwald & Co. did NOT produce any journalism based on 98% of the NSA material that they posess.
To clarify, the fact that the NSA material was obtained through the act of wistleblowing by definition means that the material belongs to the public and that its publication is in public interest (otherwise wistleblowing could not be distiguished from theft). This means that there can be no justification for not reporting on 98% of the material.
So, obviously, based on Greenwald & Co.’s journalism over a period of almost a year, with 98% of the material in the public interest unreported, I am not impressed. However, in the same period and thaks to Omidyar’s funding I witnessed Greenwald & Co. realise their “once-in-a-career dream…” to quote Greenwald again.
Thanks Sibel!
Most of what Mark Ames writes is so obviously fueled by some personal vendetta that it always amazes me that he can find outlets to publish his trash. He swaggers around the Internet with his weird little crew of wannabe-gonzo brocialists, obsessed with their virility as measured by the capacity to spew evocative sub-Cro-Magnon insults. On his old website, he not only moderated and censored comments, but openly bragged about rewriting the only ones he allowed on. To make them better, he said. The result was that almost every comment posted was an angry screed involving sewers and/or bodily fluids and/or people getting their faces punched in, followed by a tribute to Ames and his take-no-prisoners style. I suppose that anyone leaving supportive comments on that website (the only ones allowed) would probably have to be as hateful, macho, and obsessive as he is.
He knows he has to behave himself a little better at Pando, but the fact that he’s reined in his worst excesses shouldn’t lead anyone to imagine he’s in any way ethical. If you read his articles about Snowden and the NSA, for instance, you’ll see that he’s completely uninterested in thinking about the actual effects of Snowden’s actions, or the details of what he revealed. But he’s really keen on shoehorning everything into his recent thesis that people complaining about specific, undeniable government abuses are (wittingly or not) part of a libertarian conspiracy to subvert and co-opt the left. He achieves this by willfully distorting facts, assuming that all libertarians have the same nefarious agenda and that the admitted tactics of a few describe them all, and by jumping from Fact A to assumption Z with nothing in between but smeary insinuations that he hopes will look so damning that you won’t stop to reflect and notice that he didn’t connect the dots at all. I take this stuff seriously because there are lots of people out there who think like Ames does: that the bad behavior of one adherent to a broad ideology reflects on the entire group, when the truth is that there are manipulative authoritarians all over the political spectrum. He’s about the worst spokesman for the far left imaginable, so as someone who probably agrees with most of his actual policy positions (not that he writes much about actual policy or real-world events), I wish he would go away.
It sucks that this creep has enough of a platform that actually well-intentioned people feel compelled to waste their time responding to his bullshit.
Congrats on the new site, by the way. So far so good, you compromised corporate sell-out :)
“Wasn’t it just 72 hours ago that the widespread, mainstream view in the west (not one that I shared) was that there was a profound moral obligation to stand up and support the brave and noble Ukrainian opposition forces as they fight to be liberated from the brutal and repressive regime imposed on them by Vladimir Putin’s puppet?”
Hey, have I read properly? Is that you or your ironic statement? What about the neo-Nazis and brutal attack on a constitutionally elected government? And the terror imposed on the majority MPs, judges (including assassination), journalists (also one ambushed and killed), and simple workers and officials in the government buildings? Or the repressive legislation at gun point, such as the banning of minority languages? AAnd so on and so forth… Nobody is denouncing that in the Western media, who insist in calling the Maidan fascists and thugs “pro-democracy”. Now that is repugnant. What is The Intercept reporting?
Nothing in this article or comments say anything about Oleh Rybachuk, which a large portion of the Pando article focuses on. The larger geopolitical question is: will the Ukraine be a vassal state of the EU/NATO/IMF or the Russian Customs Union? If you say neither – “Ukrainians should be sovereign and free of external political manipulation” – then who funds who is very important.
True, Glen was misrepresented and Glen deserves credit for his demonstrated bravery and journalistic integrity, but there is something much larger at stake. Let’s not be naive, the question should be asked: Is the same entity funding First Look, the same entity funding IMF technocrats? Is this economic conquest in the name of peace and democracy?
What if Rybachuk (or some other neoliberal NGO funded puppet) get the Ukrainian government to sign on to IMF loans, which leads to restructuring, which leads to NATO expansion. What if NATO decides to put missiles in the Ukraine (to protect Europe from Iran, of course), the same way it did in Poland? Except in this case, NATO missiles would be pointed at Russia from the heart of Slavic civilization.
This is a dangerous game being played. People, this is leading towards a showdown between thermo-nuclear powers.
Do You Even ELITE TROLL101
Also, primer
Begin with two or three paragraphs on the most peripheral thing that comes to mind, time, autonomy,
hair care products…
Continue with a quick change-up to lawyerly gravitas; you have depth! [e.g., #DeepGreenwald: Many are called, a few donate.]
It’s time to separate the cloying fans from the cloying journos. Let’s separate the journos from the horrid malicious, lying currator statists.
Juxtapose revealed information as googleable against [implied] leaks, the information contained within which will never be dripped-out sufficiently to concretely proove anything about a given issue [e.g.,
A shadow surveillance, world government].
Having obfuscated that googling the billionaire who bought you and all your currations is mayhaps something you should have done, a PPT slide would be the perfect interlude. However a .png will do in a pinch.
Make a series of statements which _seem_ a logical progression:
i. It’s valid to investigate corps financial dealings —if a jouralist¹
ii. Promote concerns and objections about angel funding vís regime change elsewhere
iii. Allow for personal doubts (Important)
iv. “But statement” assuring that what you are doing/defending is completely separate from all the very similar things you critique
Feigning naiveté, abstractly request input. Follow with a run-on series of dichotomous statements as to obfuscate even what the issues are. [See: https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/03/01/journalistic-independence/ (2.)]
Distance from carelessness, caprice and malfeasance by dedicating all choices as “the very simple reason…”.
Simple is elegant.
Place equal public and legal weight on your word and a signed contract, ensuring it is unnecessary to disclose which is which.
Broad statements never hurt. Bonus: anyone who approves implicitly says the same thing [e.g., Hitler was a vegetarian. Not eating meat is antisemitic.].
Tie _any_ inaccuracy, especially speling, to potential loss of life —not just your own. Related: confer prominence upon individuals by associating their survival with your own.
Declare a specific and obscure knowledge base the barrier to reasonaable debate on issues. Hide magik talking stick in pants. Smile demurely.
===
¹ Only a reputable journalist may declare journalism, say on a programmer or former spook or professional-X after having a friendly philanthropist set up some opportunistic “journalisming”.
Little known fact, not even all graduates of journalism programmes are journalists. True story.
Tie _any_ inaccuracy, especially speling, to potential loss of life —not just your own.
e.g.?
I post to support GG not to add to what has already been exhaustively debated here. I do this only because if I say nothing then those who wish to tarnish the ideals of the intercept will without opposition.
Thank -you .. im the grand -neice of Otto Tolischus.Pulitzer winner..Berlin Bureau chief for NYT, jailed war correspondent in Tokyo.. i miss journalism..I crave transparent truth…and salute your modt valiant efforts.
At times I wish the internet and Twitter were never invented, since rumors can pop up. The Guardian did a great piece regarding Britain’s spy agency ability to capture images of people using Yahoo from around the world. Seemingly for what reason,they’ve spotted a known terrorist through this method?
Which news agencies have Snowden documents is a great question.
Nothing in this article or comments say anything about Oleh Rybachuk, which a large portion of the Pando article focuses on. The large geopolitical question is: will the Ukraine be a vassal state of the EU/NATO/IMF or the Russian Customs Union? If you say neither – “Ukrainians should be free of external political manipulation” – then who funds who is very important.
Stop getting all butt-hurt over Glen being misrepresented. Glen deserves credit for his demonstrated bravery and journalistic integrity, but there is something much larger at stake.
What if Rybachuk (or some other neoliberal NGO funded puppet) get the Ukrainian government to sign on to IMF loans, which leads to restructuring, which leads to NATO expansion. What if NATO decides to put missiles in the Ukraine (to protect Europe from Iran, of course), the same way it did in Poland? Except in this case, NATO missiles would pointed at Russia from the heart of Slavic civilization.
Keep your eyes on the larger picture. People, this could lead to a thermo-nuclear confrontation.
Purple Alert!!!
I think NSA is experimenting in this site with a robot that reads posts, googles some words from the post, creates nonsensical replies and sends them off with strange names such as addabadda. Two things distinguish the robot from human beings. One, the post are totally nonsense, and you will be wasting time trying to decipher them. Two the posts are quite prolific just because generating text is so much faster than typing them out. And the dead give away is that it replies to itself several times over – that’s a bug NSA needs to fix.
So folks, watch out!
I sure hope you aren’t a analyst, Rump, because you got me dead wrong. I write to relieve stress and if you can’t follow my trains of thought, maybe you shouldn’t ride my lines. If you would like me to supply the connections to any breaks in logic I appear to make, just ask. To conclude I am generated suggests you are a very suggestible soul.. Push my belly button. You know you want to, MEOW!
I read quickly, as well. You think I’M Watson? I am trying to make Watson blow chips! My errors in punctuation and homonomials are a dead give aways I only like the sound of my own voice and cannot SEE what an ass I am while Watson is fracking tone deaf!
I hate it when I break my own flow with sentence structure errors, too, but those logical ones are purposeful. “are dead giveaways” Dad is always tossing me lines, too. Stick with me, Rump, and you’ll be farting through silk.
Like Mr. Greenwald, I encourage all journalists to stand up to politically motivated, shoddy, faux “investigative” hit pieces. Members of the nonprofit Investigative News Network, which I run, are constantly having to deal with similar hit pieces by Pando and others because we have received some support from the Open Society Foundation, Democracy Fund and others. Mr Greenwald said it best: “Journalists should be judged by the journalism they produce, not by those who fund the outlets where they do it.”
Kevin Davis, CEO – INN
Journalists and media outlets should be judged not only on the quality of the journalism they produce but what related stories they do not produce, what they keep silent about.
As someone who works with 92 independent nonprofit journalism producers in the US and is associated with over 100 more globally, I can tell you that your statement is terribly naive. These nonprofits are extremely resource limited and true investigative journalism takes hundreds of work hours across multiple disciplines. This is very time consuming and expensive work. The need far outstrips the supply of journalists to cover. We’d love to have funding like The Insider has – and we’re very excited for their funding. Your comment would suggest some sort of agenda-based, luxury of picking and choosing. Editorial selection is a protected right that is driven by necessity and resources.
I have produced and hosted public affairs programs on radio stations in San Francisco and Northern California for more than 20 years and know the limitations of independent journalism and as such I see that there are some important stories that never see the light of day, such as the influence of the Israel Lobby over the US political processes.
It is only now, when AIPAC appears to have suffered a setback in its efforts to get Congress to pass new Iran sanctions that people in the “independent” media who have heretofore been silent are ready to write its epitaph, without acknowledging that all the sanctions legislation passed up to now, has been written by AIPAC.
That’s not really a secret but I suspect none of those 92 independent producers with whom you work ever deal with the subject. Prove me wrong and I’ll apologize.
Ah, fer cryin’ in the beer! Can’t we all get along? I was glad to see Pando’s article only becausee mainstream media has said NOTHING about U.S. meddling in Ukranian affairs. All we hear about is Putin meddling. But I’m still a big Intercept reader and supporter! And Pando seems kinda cool, too! I do have worries that billionaires are in cahoots with the Survillance State and that good lefties might be bought-off one day, even if there’s an editorial “wall.” I think GG wins the argument. There is no “conspiracy” here! Everybody chill!!
Yes, it’s true, the Pando piece provided an excellent opportunity to question the way in which the US just assumes that Russia has no legitimate sphere of influence, while the entire globe is America’s to interfere with. It made me think about the difference between foreign states` interference and that of rich guys like Soros. I oppose the former unequivocally, but I am only ambivalent about the latter. If the Koch brothers interfered, I would be outraged.
Great arguments as always…. but the deafening silence on Pierre’s thoughts on the Paypal 14 continues. If only there was some fiercely independent journalist in a position to query him… those activists might be truly helped.
Pierre did intact write about this on the Huffington Post several months ago.
Indeed he did, and with a few caveats, he supports the prosecution. Not sure what I expected, but still disappointed.
Pierre Omidyar wrote about the Paypal14 at the Huffingtron Post, after a friend of the PP14 asked Glenn to approach Pierre about the matter. Glenn publicly (Twitter) promised he would do that.
Whether or not Pierre’s subsequent HuffPo column was the result of Glenn’s keeping his promise, it did happen.
Pando… what a rag. What David Sirota is doing there, I do not understand.
Marcy Wheeler responds…
http://www.emptywheel.net/2014/03/01/of-neo-fascists-and-smiley-face-neoliberals/
Don’t want to step blindly on anyone’s ambitions but why not offer tabs to fellow squad member’s sites so we can find all ya’lls’ work under the same beach umbrella? Glenn’s got a lot of footprints in the sand and I’d like to see more of the crew’s.
While everyone’s taken that stinky bait, even me, we are ignoring the story that was so rudely interrupted by this fart alert. The Marcy before this Marcy where commentors so rudely changed the stinking subject to this disgrace? Way to lead yourselves off topic, crew.
I hope I read her hard work right, but did Marcy figure out it isn’t REALLY 12333 that is off it’s rocker, it’s the way DoJ intreprets NSA’s classification of data so as to make it possible to pass around like printer paper to every agency of the fedreal government,. No wonder Holder felt badly I’d hope someone would be able to clarify if I got the method by which these madmen are scroogling us right. How they violate with impunity?
Now I’m pizzed anyone wasted a moment with this silly pizzing match. Dang it Glenn, did you see that huge miss? Make THAT story the top of the popper to get us back to where were were rudely interrupted by a big farting session over monkeyshines.
Thank you TallyHo and Marcy! An excellent link with comments section a joy to behold.
Glenn: stand firm on your moral, high-principled ground.
Well. I suppose this story is going to be prominent as a sidebar to what we now can call the Second Crimean War, now under way (NYT now saying the Russians have definitely “seized” Crimea).
Some points:
1. The Pando article keeps linking Omidyar’s donation to these Ukranian groups to those by the US Agency for International Dismemberment. I’m unable to find anything in the article, however, to suggest that Omidyar was orchestrating the uprising — and even more absurdly, orchestrating it with USAID. Anybody familiar with FL/TI and its people might think it odd that there’d be cooperation with the US gov’t.
2. If USAID is agitating people in Ukraine, or Venezuela or Thailand or wherever, that would be a story in its own right. So far, all we have is that they’re on their “payroll”. Follow the money, but it doesn’t necessarily talk.
3. Glenn writes, here, “I’ve been accused … of being a Putin shill for not supporting the Ukrainian opposition and not denouncing Russian involvement there (by which they mean I’ve not written anything on this topic).” Given that, let’s say he also hasn’t investigated the St. Bartholomew’s Day Unpleasantness, so I suppose that makes him a shill for Catherine de’ Medici.
Look, if we’re going to have a good ol’ fashioned conspiracy theory about who started this war — and it may have something to do with discontent among the Ukranian people — then let’s see some evidence of conspiracy and orchestration. Certainly the Russian gov’t, who would want a casus belli, could do with a conspiracy or two to justify all this.
And who funds “Pando,” BTW?
– – –
“You furnish the pictures and I’ll furnish the war.” — Wm. Randolph Hearst to Frederic Remington, in the run-up to the Spanish-American War
Here is some evidence that that the Ukrainian uprising was funded by a neoliberal campaign with Victoria Nuland as front-man:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2fYcHLouXY
Victoria Nuland? The assistant secretary of state caught saying, “F*uck the EU?”
http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2014/feb/07/eu-us-diplomat-victoria-nuland-phonecall-leaked-video
I’m not sure that this person (a) would be working with the EU on this uprising or (b) might be prone to say anything. Or that anybody would want to work with her, esp. on anything hush-hush.
– – –
“OK, Mr. DeMille. I’m ready for my closeup.”
The underlying thrust is economic manipulation of Ukraine and there seems to be some dispute between the US and EU over who should take over in order to facilitate the West’s economic interests and manipulate the Urkrainian people (hence the fuck you comment). (I believe a lot of the Ukrainian people are also feeling this “fuck you” but at Victoria Nuland, the EU, et al who are seeking this exploitation.) But the question here re this discussion is what does all this machination have to do with a) Omidyar and b) Glenn Greenwald? Instead we’re seeing is a lot of emoting and irrational leaping to conclusions, from the Pando article as the facilitator, followed by comments in this thread. If you’re going to take this line please come up with some more compelling arguments and stop wasting everybody’s time.
Nobody should get the idea that Victoria Nuland is being defended here. Obviously the State Department is involved in attempting to manipulate the situation, and has been as well-known from her famous comment re the EU. Beware leaping to conclusions and over-simplification.
Na….this is just conspiracy right?
http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/02/17/us-eu-paying-ukrainian-rioters-protesters-paul-craig-roberts/
Sure, and the US probably does stir the pot, and not just in Ukraine. We’re still talking about any links to Omidyar and also about any clear evidence the US is directing events and not simply fomenting trouble. It would be interesting to see if the Snowden or Manning leaks turned up any pattern of that, either by State or USAID.
Funding is one clue — same for neoliberal money — but we still need to find something showing them in the act, not simply coincidental evidence. Could be a big story, but so far this is bits and pieces.
Just to be clear: I don’t care about Omidyar other than I find it rather repulsive that people collect so much fucking money. I am glad he gave some of it to these great journalists.
Glenn is an incredible journalist. I find Glenn to be both brilliant and uncompromising. I have read Glenn for years, and I will continue to read Glenn.
When I comment about the criminally insane US foreign policy (ruthless, deceiving, hypocritical, and murderous), all I am commenting on is the ruthless, deceiving, hypocritical, war mongering US foreign policy.
Well said. I agree.
Too simplistic, David. Roberts is sounding hysterical here. We can’t simplify this complex Ukraine situation to one cause like this. Read the comments following the Pando article to get additional perspective.
Paul Craig Roberts often sounds hysterical. It’s his view that Executive branch dictatorial overreach was dandy back in the day, but that latest stuff is Tyranny!!!. Read some of his 25 year old Businessweek magazine op-eds to get a feel for his view on Chile, Pinochet, the assassination of Letelier and our Cold War era involvement in South and Central America.
When he was young, strong and well-connected, imperialism was a fine thing…………. now that younger men (who possess less Aryan appearance and attitude) have a crack at it, not so much.
presumably he waves it off as “mellowing with age”?
unless of course he’s not even that clever…
Glenn, you know of course “they” just come up with with disinfo talking points. Throw it against the wall, see if it sticks. But these operatives really picked the wrong guy to go after. No offense, but you’re a lawyer and a relentless arguer. It’s actual comical every time you are attacked, because you never back down ever!
Big surprise… the corporate media using smear tactics against people who oppose them or their benefactors. It’s in your face corruption in the divided states of america. What now?…. How do you get people to wake up? Keep up the good work GG.. you rock!
Corrupt, repressive govs fear an informed citizenry. What The Intercept helps citizens cultivate their ‘intellectual self-defense. Greenwald et al don’t turn a blind eye to corrupt power; but more importantly, their actions aren’t censored/influenced by such power. May the ranks of the discerning and the fearless grow.
Hmm. Maybe it’s appropriate that I came to know Greenwald’s work via Sam Harris, I always felt there were some uncanny parallels between the two of them. I was feeling a little suspicious when I first saw this article, like I’d become to fawning and uncritical. Why is Glenn only engaging these hysterics and not the measured, reasonable critics, after all? But, as is the case when arguing for religion, I’m hard pressed to find a coherent, logical, evidence based counter argument here. The available categories are generally:
1. I hate Greenwald so much. (Often followed by – So much that I need to be close to him at all times in some way shape or form via watching his every move.) To be clear, I don’t deny anyone the right to hate Greenwald or to think he’s a jerk or even to say they don’t follow / support him for entirely personal reasons – it’s just important to delineate that, I think. You have a personal problem with someone, fine, but call it that.
2. Security concerns / terrorism (for NSA stories) – eh. Despite all the mocking its possible there’s a legitimate case to be made here, but I haven’t been impressed thus far.
3. OH MY GOD GLENN IS A WITCH HE APPARATED INTO MY ROOM LAST NIGHT I’M TELLING YOU. Also this ties into a global secret network of… (or, insert your favorite unlikely theory).
4. Greenwald is not good and pure because sometimes his socks don’t match or his funder likes this one group or – breaking – his third cousin once removed is homophobic or… I think there is value in knowing who funds who and possible influences in the world, but the point of that is generally to be wary *when particular contexts arise. I.e. “Wait, in actuality this environmental group is funded by oil companies and they support this questionable law…” But a “tainted by association” argument is, again, pretty weak.
Again, not dissimilar to atheism. He seems to be in the role of someone who’s chosen an often unpopular minority position that is generally debated with appeals to intuition, anger, character attacks, etc., vs. robust counter-arguments.
Could you summarize what you are saying in a couple of sentences. I am totally confused by what you have written.
I could make an educated guess, but then they’ll think I’m nutz.
He’s laying out a set of rhetorical arguments to attack Glenn’s credibility illegitimately. Last, cast him as a fallible or flawed human, next a witch in a hunt, then a human torn by the balance between individual rights and institutional necessity, and firstly ignorantly mimicing animus to stay under the originator’s radar like a typical coward..
If folks aren’t bothering to understand our rhetoric, stay off the fracking rollercoasters! Lazy, lazy and folks call ME crazy.
OK, on the second read, I’m not sure he’s defending anyone’s honor but simply recalling the classic comebacks since the 1600s to pressing publications when you’ve not got a good one yourself. Really pizzes folks off, pressing in public.
I think it’s satire. Notice point 4, which presents an unlikely hypothetical — in fact, Glenn lives in a tropical climate and usually doesn’t wear socks, judging by his at-home photos.
– – –
“Plaintiff, alleging jurisdiction … prays for leave to file a complaint for violation of his civil rights in forma pauperis. He alleges that Satan has on numerous occasions
caused plaintiff misery and unwarranted threats, against the will of plaintiff, that Satan has placed deliberate obstacles in his path and caused plaintiff’s downfall.
— U.S. ex rel. Gerald Mayo v. Satan and His Staff, 54 F.R.D. 282 (W. Dist. Penna., 1982)
I think it’s satire. Notice point 4, which presents an unlikely hypothetical — in fact, Glenn lives in a tropical climate and usually doesn’t wear socks, judging by his at-home photos.
I have it on good authority – though no photographic evidence – the he walks around in a mankini all day. Every day.
The only thing that changes is the color.
Seems to me Nic is trying to do the same thing I was trying to do–to identify the BS (he gives us his categories of it). There’s the paranoia again–over incoherence, garbled format, etc. (Maybe we need an edit function?)
So finally, that sticky sock-puppet charge is refuted! Or was that a sock-puppy charge? Never can keep these things straight.
Pedi,, if I had to live in such humidity, I’d stay bare butted all day. i’d be sitting on the finest of hotel towels, though!
I’m glad you said it first, Joseph K because i have seen that organizational tell too often for credible signal unless the source material encourages it. There must be a lot of lawyers in the house because that citation went right over my head. Did I give away my geo-intel? I’m in HELL!
Ditto
Oh geez I didn’t realize my comment was going to be judged by multiple people!! (Gets flustered, freaks out and hides under a rock).
Apologies. Wrote that in a rush and was trying to connect many ideas pinging around my head at once. Essentially, saying my first reaction to this was to think “Ok, this whole thing is so ridiculous, poor Glenn. But wait – maybe I’m being uncritical. I mean, maybe he’s only engaging the ridiculous critics and then he always look good in comparison.” Upon looking around, however, I didn’t see anything to back that up, because there aren’t really prominent measured, reasoned critics for him to engage (on recent topics, not speaking to everything he’s ever written). This seems wrong in a ‘two sides to every story’ sort of way, there should almost always be a reasonable counter-narrative. This reminded me of atheism, one of the few times where there *isn’t a reasonable (as in logic-based) counter narrative and yet people ardently oppose the idea, in fact probably the majority do. That was the best parallel I could come up with for what seems like an odd scenario (despite a lack of a good counter-narrative to invoke, a significant percentage of people still vehemently opposing his work without giving a compelling reason as to *why).
That said, it surely says something about the level of recent discourse (not blaming commenters for that, just noting) that I need to specify that it is satire when accusing Glenn Greenwald of witchcraft. I kind of see how you might be confused, actually, but again, this is a sad statement on the recent quality of conversation surrounding these stories.
Pedinska – really? No photos? I think it’s, um, it’s very important that someone verify this. Do not be alarmed if I’m wandering Rio de Janeiro with a camera in a creepy manner, I am doing Super Important Intrepid Journalism Stuff.
Oh geez I didn’t realize my comment was going to be judged by multiple people!! (Gets flustered, freaks out and hides under a rock).
LOL! Well, when you hang your undies out around here there’s always someone around who’ll take up the challenge and let you know about all the holes, skidmarks, lace etc. ;-}
No photos? I think it’s, um, it’s very important that someone verify this.
Sadly, no. But there were reports of someone who looked vaguely like Putin wandering around on the beach. Maybe he’s bringing a message from Snowden.
Ha! Thanks Pedinska, and enjoy your sense of humor btw.
An aside – not that it matters, but by way of introduction since I plan on commenting again, I am a she, not a he.
“Paranoia strikes deep/Into your life it will creep/ . . . what’s that sound, everybody look now, what’s going down . . .”
That old Buffalo Springfield lyric has been running through my mind this morning reading here and Ames’ piece over at Pando (be sure to read the comments section following his article).
“Ah yes. Glenn you see (hushed voice) is a very evil person . . . (eyes glowing). Here’s my evidence . . . did you catch that inconsistency there with him, that unanswered as yet question (because I haven’t asked him yet)?”
I believe it’s paranoid compensation BS. One sign is no matter the rejoinders, and how well-reasoned the rejoinders are, the pit bull keeps on with the yap yap yap yap.
There’s nothing wrong with seeking clarification, or having questions, or raising challenges.
A big indication, it seems to me, that the response is either a) paranoid compensation BS or b) a troll seeking to disrupt, is not only the continuing yap yap yap but the aggression in the voice.
The paranoia can also work toward oversimplification as with failing to sort out differences between Omidyar and, say, Victoria Nuland.
Lack of clarity and puzzling (and maybe feeling stupid), and trying to make this kind of distinction, may lead to a tendency to do the LEAP to “Oh my God, Greenwald’s in with them! Omidyar and Victorian Nuland in it together no doubt!”
Then comes the “fuck you I’m so superior to you sound in the voice, combined with the let me show up how stupid you are and how smart I am sound in it.”
Too bad Glenn has to waste time with this sort of thing.
“Parnoia strikes deep . . . into your life it will creep”
Stephen Stills again . . .
Take a look into the lyrics to Teenage Nervous Breakdown. It’s not just for kids, anymore Is rock and roll subject to NSA’s wishes? Can GCHQ crack a case of the Blues? Because they sure can bum a brother out. If GCHQ is responsible for twerking I am gonna split a rug.
“…Unscrupulous operators could confuse, could exploit and deceive the conditional reflex theories and change the probabilities…It’s a rockous crackass place with pavlov on the human race….It’s a terrible case and usually permanent when it takes place…It’s a teenage nervous breakdown.”
I’d say they’ve wiped probability from the psyche with all this idiotic improbability they call reality and think we don’t sense that missing part. Don’t tell the grownups. Lowell George is in the HOUSE!
I see it as a creeping infantilism degeneration syndrome that has been coming on across America for decades for sundry causes (of course economic). I could be wrong. I was arguing with a commenter a couple of days ago and it occurred to me he could be 15 years old, and what he wanted to do was prove himself. So it’s compensation–a lot of it, I think, a lot of the discourse is compensation and that’s why I use the word “paranoia.” It’s an inner thought stream (if it could be articulated ) on the vein of “I’m so inadequate and I’ve got to prove myself, and so I’m going to knock down Glenn Greenwald as part of this compensation need.” And the twerking, as part of this, in Miley Cyrus’s handling, is a form of satire on our infantilism, a way of showing us what we’re doing (WJClinton take note!)—youth speaks!
Humans love to shine. I monkey all the time. But no one need feel inferior in a learning environment. The smartest people say “I don’t know” and then go ask others who do how to figure it out before they make further arses of themselves.
i am still trying to discover if I understood the story Marcy was telling before we all got dragged off topic into this stupid infantile meme looking for a syllogism. It sounded REALLY important which is why they tossed Glenn some really bloody bait. He’s really sweet the way he defends the ladies. But Marcy was kicking Holder’s ass to the curb like Kreimhild when the channel got changed. is that why Holder had a Redd Foxx moment?
Go back, go back! to that batty channel, the one before Marcy responds to the monkey, the one where she’s got Holder’s balls in her teeth like a honey badger! This one.
http://www.emptywheel.net/2014/02/28/2008s-new-and-improved-eo-12333-sharing-sigint/
It makes sense that this NSA thing reaches well back and into other areas of enforcement for whatever reasons. The “whatever reasons” is chilling, of course, part of the “chilling effect” Judge Pauley dismissed blithely Dec 27. That is extends to local forces as described also seems to fit with the amazing militarization and build-up of local police with humvees, helicopters, etc. etc. (and drones coming). All of this has been kept carefully under wraps for a long time . . .
The Orson Welles of Music- Jackson Browne.
The Doctor in the House
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwEZlsD6UpI
You have found me FAVORITE capture of this group available. NOTHING cooler than Little Feat! OK, Templeman was working a mighty network of geniuses. Dobbies and BeefHeart and any of the Mothers of Invention who wanted to sit in. is it a sin to love old music this much?
The Majic Band has recently toured Australia. CTN Beefheart, Don Van Vliet died December 2010
Hot Rats has the Captain on Willie the Pimp.
Bliss.
Lowell played with Zappa.
Member of Little Feat played with the Majic Band.
I was privileged to see Little Feat with Lowell George at the Horden Pavilion in Sydney in the Seventies.
Great seats and the encore was Spanish Moon.
Heavenly bliss.
No place for scrutinizers here, cetnral or otherwise.
Music is the soul’s joy.
I want to punch you like my little brother who saw LF at Pink Pop. I had to go “home” for the summer like a homesick douche. What a moron I was! instead I saw America in DC. How redundant. Thank good Jame’s Taylor’s brother was up first.
If you tell me you’ve seen NRBQ live, I’m gonna give you rug rash, you little rat. What GOOD TIMES!
Yes! And here’s Stephen Stills and this song running through my head–
Stop what’s that sound
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5M_Ttstbgs
Not to get too gothic on you, but Steppenwolf slays with MONSTER.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-7uwshsfFI.
Now, when he knows I’m rocking on my hobby horse my hubby will fist pump this muscular song to make me break character. It goes on far too long and breaks into three movements. How can I keep baiting bears with that going on at the toaster? He’s balding in his boxers. it’s hilarious. But he just LOVES those manly male singers from the 1970s. He can Tom Jones like a homage specialist.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czUx2gvjdJk
Graham Nash – Military Madness
GRAHAM NASH
“Military Madness”
In an upstairs room in Blackpool
By the side of a northern sea
The army had my father
And my mother was having me
Military Madness was killing my country
Solitary Sadness comes over me
After the school was over and I moved
To the other side
I found a different country but I never
Lost my pride
Military Madness was killing the country
Solitary sadness creeps over me
And after the wars are over
And the body count is finally filed
I hope that The Man discovers
What’s driving the people wild
Military madness is killing your country
So much sadness, between you and me
War, War, War, War, War, War
Old Grey Whistle Test is the bomb! Have you seen Marley and the Wailers? Let’s stir it up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JE3WaSETf8k
I’m sorry, but hands down, the 1970s ROCKED steadily, even with disco screwing up the beat. I take encouragement from the fact we cleaned up our shitty nests back then enough to feel good about living in them for a few more fakey years.
Who let that achy breaky fakey wild thing make such arses of our spectacals? i could make folks FAR more uncomfortable than a child stroking herself. How about granny changing her own diaper?
What stupid idiot thinks that my boss Pierre Omidiyar, who just helped to install a former banker in Ukraine, in order to structurally adjust the riches of a beautiful land and people into foreign bankers/corporate hands (E-bay rocks!), matters at all? It’s not like that means he’s working with the government or anything. Or even if it does, why would it matter that he is also funding an ‘adversarial’ press writing hard hitters against that same government? Who cares what his agendas are? Please guys…We are independent! ….of all 1percenters except Pierre Omidiyar.
http://benswann.com/breaking-russia-recalling-ambassador-from-u-s-sending-troops-into-ukraine/
“Paranoia strikes deep/Into your life it will creep/ . . . what’s that sound, everybody look now, what’s going down . . .”
As atheism is on the rise the ruling elite needs a new all seeing eye in the sky to keep people paranoid. Heard the new revelations about how the NSA is watching you have a wank on Yahoo chat!? (even God didn’t do that….right?)
Your comment here and below, David, are what I had in mind with use of the word “paranoia.” You’re making all kinds of leaps toward conclusions for some reason, and presenting yourself with an angry sound of self-righteousness. Now that could be a) because you’re trying to get one up on GG to show how smart you are or b) you’re working to disrupt, divide etc., risking being identified on this site as a “troll”. (Both of these I would maintain are indications of paranoia.) Also, the idea that Omidyar is somehow in league with a State Department type operation seems paranoid without a good deal more evidence and clarification than you have so far provided. So please let’s have it (the evidence)–plus your claims below that Omidyar is an enemy of Assange. Out with it quickly–the evidence you have on all this–so as to avoid being suspected of a continuous yap yap yap yap like sound of the pit bull. Because the empty claims going on and on are a drain on profitable discussion and very tiresome.
You made all kinds of false accusations against me my friend and then tell me to provide evidence, hypocrisy at it’s finest.
My quote ”As atheism is on the rise the ruling elite needs a new all seeing eye in the sky to keep people paranoid. Heard the new revelations about how the NSA is watching you have a wank on Yahoo chat!? (even God didn’t do that….right?)”
I take the view that GG used to talk about all the time which is something like, ”if the intelligence agencies are gathering up all this info, the important info gets lost because they have too much to sort through.” So actually I’m not paranoid of the NSA. You missed my point, I am worried about the mind state that is being created about all these spying revelations. Its called the Panopticon state of mind, where everyone is scared cuz they thing someone is always watching…the old function of god.
In your reply you say: ” So please let’s have it (the evidence)–plus your claims below that Omidyar is an enemy of Assange.”
Yes, please copy and paste where I said that. Thank you tho 1. for the ad hominem attack, kinda funny. And 2. the blatant lie where I claim ”Omidiyar is the enemy of Assange.”
Joseph, Funny you ask for evidence of my claims and then attribute to me something I clearly didn’t say in order to smear my ideas: ”the idea that Omidyar is somehow in league with a State Department type operation seems paranoid without a good deal more evidence and clarification than you have so far provided.” -Joeseph K. ummm, Where did I say that? ”Out with it quickly–the evidence you have…” yes my friend, out with it quickly! Just copy and paste where I said that about Omidyar and Assange, thanks. Lets see the evidence!! Or let’s be clear that you are a liar.
As far as YOUR jumping to conclusions and ad hominem accusing me of being paranoid let me just say that I’ve traveled solo and independently through very scarey places such as: Syria, Ukraine, Kashmir, hell I’ve ridden my bike all over Harlem and Brooklyn and gone and chilled in the bars, in the middle of the night mind you! ”Paranoia!!” …..These are just a FEW places where my ‘paranoia’ has taken me. And let me tell you I was a bundle of nerves and trembling on all those buses and road sides all alone!
Now, what I did say is this: ”As atheism is on the rise the ruling elite needs a new all seeing eye in the sky to keep people paranoid. Heard the new revelations about how the NSA is watching you have a wank on Yahoo chat!? (even God didn’t do that….right?)” Ok, sure there is no evidence of this, I’ll give you that. However it is a strong possibility. Think about it. Who used to watch you have a wank when you were a teenager: God. And now that ‘he’ is going to the trash heap of history where ‘he’ belongs. There must be a new replacement, viola! introducing the NSA and their ‘Optical Nerve’ program sucking up all kinds of videos from yahoo chat of naked people having fun. See the correlation? Ok, there is no ‘evidence’ of this, you are correct sir. Bravo. Sure seems fishy tho. And theories need to exist before evidence can be found to support them. Its called the scientific method. Heard of it?
And if you think the elite isn’t aware of Jeremy Bentham and Michael Foucault and their writings on the Panopticon Mind State I would suggest you think again…And it is no empty claim that Omidyar has in the past worked with the Intelligence State, see Paypal 14 (oh! but he wrote an op-ed about that in Hawaii! All is ok!!)
And one more thing about paranoia. As Glenn wrote about repeatedly in the past, it is futile for the NSA or any other alphabet soup agency to gather all of this info, because it IMPOSS?BLE to sort through it. So it actually hampers their operations on real targets, cuz there is too much info to process. So what I am trying to say is NOT to buy into all of this spy stuff, that Glenn is now ‘exposing’ at least in as much as it makes one scared that ”they are watching!!” AgGGGgHh! Paranoia striking deep!!
By the way that song is great and very pertinent to these times, but I’d say more related to the police state that we the US citizens are buying for ourselves. As well, a lot of other CSNY is relevant to these times.
David, here’s what I was referring to with the call for evidence:
David, I agree with you statement following where I stopped quoting you on the intentions of the US and EU to exploit Ukraine. I understand your suspicions about Omidyar, but so far in what I’ve read there is no connection between him and, say, Victoria Nuland and the policies she represents. The problem I’m pointing to is there is a difference between suspecting somebody you dislike and showing convincingly your suspicions are correct. That Omidyar has money does not automatically disqualify him as beneficent. We need more on this. The insinuation he injured wikileaks via Paypal is not clear. Can you provide a link (and evidence). This is where I was coming from, probably too aggressively. Communication is a big challenge in these comment columns. I say let’s agree to challenge each other as friends . . .
@joseph K junior,
FYI, I just noticed a comment at Boiling Frogs Post that was directed to you.
http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/2014/03/01/pando-expose-glenn-greenwalds-boss-billionaire-omidyar-co-funded-ukraine-revolution-groups-with-us-government/comment-page-1/#comment-13737
”Hi Joseph,
I appreciate your non-name calling response, at least one person can handle their cognitive dissonance rationally when reading my comments.
By the way for those who don’t know what cognitive dissonance is, please google it.
I have tried to respond to your post twice now in the last two hours with lots of links which you requested. Unfortunately as of now, those posts have not appeared, maybe because of the links. Sorry if this is redundant.
So I would just ask you to google a couple of things for yourself to see what I’m talking about.
Omidyar and Paypal14
Omidyar’s tweet on leaks
for those who don’t believe in psy opps please google:
Operation Northwoods (read the wikipedia article)
Strategy of Tension (wikipedia)
Panopticon (wikipedia)
**Most importantly, the most exhaustive analysis of this situation has been done by a former FBI whistle blower by the name of Sibel Edmonds. She does exactly what you correctly suggest I should do ;) She makes a point, and then posts tons of links backing up her claims. She makes another point and does the same etc.
Google her site ‘boilingfrogspost’ and scroll down the section with all of her articles. She must have written 4 or 5 articles on this topic. Her other analysis is also very good and very interesting. Anyone concerned with foreign policy should watch her Gladio series with James Corbett, can be found on Youtube. Also, in this series I think, she explains who she is, what she went through as a whistle blower (before, during and after) and what she is doing now, why and who funds it etc.”
Based on the history of this thread it’s easy to conclude David Griffith is a troll. Don’t feed trolls!
The greatest threat to corrupt, repressive govs is an informed citizenry. What The Intercept is doing is helping citizens to cultivate their “intellectual self-defense.” Greenwald et al doesn’t turn a blind eye to these destructive forces; more importantly, they aren’t governed by them. May the ranks of the discerning and the fearless continue to grow.
I am neither pro-Russian, nor pro-American when it comes to the global picture, but pro-common-sense. In the case of Ukraine/Russia/US, I support Russia moving into the Ukraine for assistance. How is what they are doing any different than what the US did by moving in to liberate Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Somalia, Syria et al? There is no difference…. but is there?
The US government just recently interviewed 4 people who will be representing different countries around the world, and all, but one, said that they never even visited their respective states. They know nothing of the language, history, or any general background. So people need to keep in mind that these are the types of people who will represent the US’ national interest.
Another point that should be made is that over the last 50 or so years, how many wars has Russia been in? The Cold War cannot really be considered a “war” due to the fact that it was mostly rhetoric back and forth. But then look back just as long and think of how many wars the US has been in. It boggles the mind. When you look at it on a timeline, there are hardly no gaps between the wars. I know I could go back a hundred years just to reveal the same thing.
So who do I trust to bring order out of chaos in the Ukraine? A country that is plagued with government overthrows, warmongering, Stasi’esq domestic spying, and general playground bully tactics? Or a country that has a rich history with the Ukraine? The choice to me is extremely obvious, and didn’t require someone else to help me make these connections. So I think Kudo’s to Pierre for donating that money. He is helping a country that needs it. It would not affect my opinion of him if he didn’t donate, either. It’s his choice.
Thank you Glenn for all of your hard work on these articles. They are very much appreciated. I know that I cannot trust my own government with very much right now, nor should I. Trust is earned and developed over many decades and the US has built and destroyed the trust so many times that sometimes it feels like the metal will fatigue. I can’t say if my viewpoints match yours on the Ukraine/US/Russia ordeal, but to be honest, that really doesn’t matter to me, because I can generate my own viewpoints based on history. I really wish more people would learn to do the same.
Is Russia Putin or Pussy Riot? Are Russian tanks really better at “bringing order” , for example in Chechnya than our nasty actions? Maybe Finland should be appointed as mediator. They seem to have found a better way to transition out of Soviet dominance than anyone else.
Wish you had carried “activities” over from the previous paragraph. With that done, it’s an interesting question. Is there a line? How about someone like Mike Godwin, would you take his money?
Is journalism different than any/every other product in this respect, that it should be judged only by its quality without regard for how it was produced? To me, it’s not clear.
Perhaps The Intercept should hire a guy with wit such as Paul Krugman for a dedicated job of addressing all the BS which will flow in your direction for some time to come. (I don’t mean you should hire an Obama toady as Krugman is, just a cleaver wit to stay on their case.)
I think we do need a Hightower kind of augmented newsletter story telling here, but appreciate the solemnity of a good rhetorical bitch slap. Now I want to hear more from the background singers. I bet they get an award.
Glenn: The federal judge for whom I clerked was one of the most liberal and activist judges to sit on the federal appellate bench. He got a lot of flack not only from the typical sources you would expect, but from other federal judges on the bench. He had a wood sign that he hung on the wall next to his desk. It said: “Illegitimi non carborundum.” My advice to you is the same: Don’t let the bastards grind you down. And, keep your eye on the prize. The fact that you are getting all this petty criticism is proof that you are doing a good job.
@Glenn: Having just finished grading a set of logic exams, I once again found your writing–full of good, clear argumentation–a mental palate cleanser. I would have loved to have you in my classes when you were an undergraduate. Thanks again for your work.
Mr. Greenwald is an exceptional writer who can compose extensive, citation-rich articles on a moment’s notice that are replete with a logician’s precision. His training in philosophy and the law has served him well. Open-minded readers garner valuable lessons in reasoning and common sense with virtually every article.
If only we had ALL seen the subject which this digression took our attention away from…Marcy’s finally broken Holder’s code.
http://www.emptywheel.net/2014/02/28/2008s-new-and-improved-eo-12333-sharing-sigint/
But instead of this subject getting a good discussion up, we got folks running and yelping like sheep and wolves in the comment section.
Is that why Holder pulled a Redd Foxx? I know better to make fun as that’s the way my father went, cursing us for telling him how to roll a carpet.
Maybe The Intercept should hire Paul Krugman, he has had a lot of practice knocking BS from the right wing regarding economics (even though he is just another Obama supplicant). Then you could have one guy there dedicated to knocking down all the BS which will continue to flow your way.
You & your other colleagues, like it or not, are held to a higher standard because of the quality & integrity of your journalism. Saying it is so, doesn’t make it right. Your previous reporting & thus admirable reputation directly conflicts with the actions of your new employer. His funding played an essential role in a coup & the continued hell & bloodshed unleashed in Ukraine. If you are truly an independent, freedom of expression, consequences be damned……then your next move should reflect that.
Mr Greenwald draws the line in the sand and clearly states his position. From the article :
Wencape, It wont work, give it up, and try to think of another method of attack. Simply repeating what is untrue will not make others believe you. You got away with it with WMD but people have wised up to the tactic. Simply no good trying to create doubt, or to try to throw mud, trying to blame Omidyar for the coup. Your mud wont stick, why not go and tell the cretins you work for that every bot that they send here will get destroyed. Glenn is truly independent, and I hope that he goes on publishing and exposing the truth. You clearly want to carry on with the pursuit of corrupting what is true. You can no longer forbid the truth. You use the word integrity, but you have none same as your employer.
What is it with this Mark Ames guy? Is he angling for a job at Faux News?
Mark Ames, and his colleague at Pando, Yasha Levine, have hated Greenwald — and crusaded against him — ever since Greenwald wrote a blistering column about a piece they published in The Nation. (Before this piece was published in 2010, Ames and Levine respected Glenn.) Many agreed with Glenn, including the editor at The Nation, who issued an apology for the flaws in Ames’ and Levine’s piece.
Glenn’s article dissecting what was wrong with the Ames/Levine smear of John Tyner is here: http://www.salon.com/2010/11/24/tyner/
The Nation’s apology here: http://www.thenation.com/blog/156700/apology-john-tyner#
Ames and Levine were embarrassed, and began an ugly crusade to smear Glenn over anything they could contrive to rant about. For them, it is an entirely personal vendetta.
Thank you so much for the links to the source material behind the Pando smear job. Never heard of Pando before this, and you can bet I’ll watch for their “reporting” footprint from here on.
Glenn’s article dissecting what was wrong with the Ames/Levine smear of John Tyner is here: http://www.salon.com/2010/11/24/tyner/
The Nation’s apology here: http://www.thenation.com/blog/156700/apology-john-tyner#
OUCH! It will be interesting to see how this whole thing plays out. Thank you for the added insight.
For what it’s worth, I think Ames is jealous of Taibbi for his achievements and the fact that way more people know who Matt is. Ames and Taibbi poked their fingers in the eyes of numerous Russian oligarchs during their Exile days and I always enjoyed reading their output always keeping in mind that sometimes the truth was stretched almost to the snapping point. Mark needs to accept the fact that Matt has way more credibility, based on his reporting, than he ever will and not throw stones.
I’d say that while Taibbi clearly has excelled in the journalistic arena it is Ames who wrote the superior book – Put “Going Postal” on your reading list. The two writers have tread different paths and comparison doesn’t really seem necessary.
Mr. Greenwald
“……not denouncing Russian involvement there (by which they mean I’ve not written anything on this topic)….. I have a long history of condemning U.S. government interference in the governance of other countries, and of the accompanying jingoistic moral narrative that this interference is intended to engender Freedom and Democracy rather than the promotion of U.S. interests. I have equal scorn for those who feign opposition to Russian interference in the sovereignty of other countries while continuing to support all sorts of U.S. interference of exactly that sort….”
I would certainly say these statements sum up your journalistic approach to civil rights, civil liberties and human rights. Fuck the people in the Ukraine. Fuck the people in Syria. Fuck the people in the Central African Republic, “I’m” exposing the US war machine and US hypocrisy. That’s why “The Intercept”will be known as an anti western/anti American site. It’s clear that you don’t in any capacity support Putin, but you serve his interests by your silence. People obsessively write about the US and Israel to the exclusion of human rights violations everywhere else in the world.
Omidyar should be praised for supporting democracy in the world regardless of whether that support is .in America or Ukraine.
Mr. Summers, how lovely to see you here at The Intercept. There have been rather few ardent authoritarians posting in this space, a void you capably fill wherever your land.
Hi Mona
Likewise, Mona. What a pleasant surprise. Who would have thought that you would be posting at the Intercept?
“…….There have been rather few ardent authoritarians posting in this space, a void you capably fill wherever your land…..”
God help me, but I am your typical conservative – a racist war monger. I actually kind of admire Mr. Putin…..you know his nationalism and his love of all things Russian – past and present – with an emphasis on the past. I’ll try to drop in every once in a while to say hi and help you expose the US war machine.
Glenn, thank you and welcome to the wonderful world of rhetoric, where everything anyone says or does will be used against you.
As a lawyer, you were likely conversant with unethical rhetorical twisting of all human language to serve the purposes of specious interpretation for their goals. I thank you for speaking out in every medium in which I have encountered your work, against deceptive rhetoric.
I believe it was Socrates who pointed out that rhetoric is either empty flattery or empty harangue : polemic.
Eager partisans which I have elsewhere termed idolaters, meaning that they place their hopes in those of higher social status, attempting to elevate more or less rhetorically handy humans into icons of their own desire for social status by association, are subject to this profoundly deceptive use of language.
While science attempts to teach avoidance of empty assertion or use critical review to disavow its use, the bulk of humanity grovels in its use. Thank you for continuing to expose their eager cringing and weak attempts to pretend intelligence.
To the Fools subject to and attempting to use rhetoric, here are words from interesting play:
“Indeed, it is a strange disposed time:
But men may construe things after their fashion,
Clean from the purpose of the things themselves.”
How about:
“But for supporting robbers, shall we now
Contaminate our fingers with base bribes,
And sell the mighty space of our large honours
For so much trash as may be grasped thus?”
I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him. [No matter what name he chooses to take. This appears to offend true believers everywhere. Seems that a lot of schooled dimwits have deep desires to write their own Sharias, with death to this and death to that. All the little caesars are worthy of your utter disdain, dear reader, including especially conservatives]
Greenwald could very easily come out against BOTH Russia and US/NATO over Ukraine, especially since they are both wrong, both dangerous superpowers exploiting nationalism and people for their own corrupt interests.
Instead, Greenwald should seek solidarity with the people of Ukraine against all nationalisms: Ukrainian, Russian and American.
Your surety about just who is or not corrupt over there belies my total unsurety about the situation,as our MSM usually fails to even enlighten US on Canada and Mexico,let alone some 8000 mile away nation, which most Americans can’t spell,and which I’m absolutely sure that our populace have no interest in going to war for.And whom do you think has more skin in this game,neighbor Russia or far away America?It’s just a diabolical game for our yuppie scum,ensconced in their armored ivory towers,while the plebes die for their nightmares all over the world.
No, what you’ve offered is a moronic – and false – summary.
The actual one is really quite clear: here
Exactly. This is what I too feel about being critical of my own government’s activities, and Noam Chomsky has put it very clearly
http://noam-chomsky.tumblr.com/post/17547861328/my-own-concern-is-primarily-the-terror-and
The problem with you, Mr Summers, is that your opinion on world matters is the only one that counts, and that people cannot and must not form their own opinions and fashion their journalistic ventures accordingly. What gives you that arrogance? I also have exactly the same opinion as Greenwald about Ukraine and Syria, and I see no reason to meddle in their personal wars. CAR is different. People like us have enslaved their people for years and used and abused them endlessly, which is why they need outside mediation to stop the massacre. But their politics is best left to them. Either you are retarded, Mr Summers, or you are a professional clown much like that fellow who claps while spying.
A question of character. Never could get a syllogism with your guessing name through a censor at business sites and assumed it is somehow considered ethnically insensitive, but aren’t you the icehole who made that gal pay for discovering how to spin hay into gold? Oh, I see you are closely related by sound, but I’m still putting you on a list since you got me sequestered for riffing off you.
OMG, how dare I call you a thief, that was your code she used and then you had her over a barrel for lying about it. But how could you make children your pawn? That sounds much more probable.
@abbadabba
Are you lost here? Then get lost …
“……. I also have exactly the same opinion as Greenwald about Ukraine and Syria, and I see no reason to meddle in their personal wars….”
Really? What opinion might that be? Greenwald stated: “……by which they mean I’ve not written anything on this topic….”. Oh and Yes, I agree. The Syrians are only third worlders so why get involved – or even devote precious writing time to the 100,000(+) killed with the support of Putin. Human right is just so overrated.
Thanks.
You have your sympathy for all the AQ thugs killed in Syria, that’s your business. Why do you expect everyone else to have the same sympathy? That is the opinion I was referring to – the right to have or not to have an opinion or to even express what that opinion might be. You appear to demand that everyone have an opinion just because you have one, and for that opinion to be valid it must be exactly the same as what you have. I call that arrogance, and basically that is the reason for much of the strife that leads to all the deaths that should worry you presumably, especially if you are AQ.
The United States has been the global police for years and Mr. Greenwald only pointed out that the hypocrisy of our foreign policy (we can be the only country to shape governments, not any other country). This article addresses to attacks of his journalistic integrity as well as those of his colleagues and employer. Topics such as the civil war in Syria, civil liberties and others that you referred to are empty claims that lack merit and attempt to change the conversation from it’s origin. Our foreign policy has been deteriorating steadily in recent history and the current positions and actions of the current administration are consistent with that historic trend. Mr. Greenwald and his associates at The Intercept are offering what other mainstream Western media outlets are not: unbiased journalism based upon hard evidence.
Mr Summers, I am sorry but I do not agree with everything that you have said. There has been nothing written by Glenn that suggests that he does not care about the civil rights and civil liberties of other countries, including Syria, Ukraine, and Central African Republic. Okay, the main focus has been on US hypocrisy and on the US Intelligence agency revelations. But given the amount of public interest in the revelations concerning GCHQ, NSA, and the widespread outrage currently then I would suggest that he has got his priorities right. It should also be evident to you that there is a need to defend journalists sources, whistleblowers, and to fight for less censorship, and control of the mainstream press. That is something that was very evident following the latest leak regarding the indiscriminate targeting and violation of Yahoo’s customers. One could additionally argue that in exposing and opening up a public debate on what you refer to as the “US war machine,” ( but which some might also describe as over aggressive US foreign policy). Glenn’s journalism could very well bring about improvements for the countries which you have accuse d him of not giving a fuck about. I do however, agree with you when you state that Omidyar does deserve praise for supporting democracy. Although you have been immediately labelled an authoritarian by other commentators, its great to see that you also believe strongly in democracy.
“……..There has been nothing written by Glenn that suggests that he does not care about the civil rights and civil liberties of other countries, including Syria, Ukraine, and Central African Republic. Okay, the main focus has been on US hypocrisy and on the US Intelligence agency revelations…..”
The question is will Greenwald attempt to broaden his appeal to other areas. His boss rightly supported the Ukraine revolution, but Greenwald was absent from the debate (as was the Intercept). Human rights, civil rights and civil liberties extend far beyond the US border – and they are affected by the policies of all nations, not just the US (and Israel).
@CraigSummers
“The question is will Greenwald attempt to broaden his appeal to other areas. ”
Good, nay great. Now you have started asking questions instead of dispensing prescriptions. Please use the question mark at the end and all will be fine.
If you were a missionary I would have exhorted you for greater action. Unfortunately, your trolling disappoints me.
Yes, it is a well known journalistic standard that unless every journalist specialize in writing everything about everything they have failed in their professional career and moral standing.
“……Yes, it is a well known journalistic standard that unless every journalist specialize in writing everything about everything they have failed in their professional career and moral standing…..”
If civil liberties is your specialty, and your boss donated to a democracy movement that was crushed by the Russian supported Ukrainian government, then you have entirely missed the boat (IMO). Seems simple enough.
Craig Summers: A supporter of Islamic extremists, many not from Syria, who’d like to exterminate Jews, Christians, Alawites, those are Summers’ “people of Syria” he cares so much about.
“……..Craig Summers: A supporter of Islamic extremists, many not from Syria, who’d like to exterminate Jews, Christians, Alawites, those are Summers’ “people of Syria” he cares so much about…..”
Thanks for your comment. I appreciate your attempt to blame the jihadists for the war in Syria. Most anti American, Syrian supporters have found a refuge from the war crimes because of the Saudi supported jihadists terrorists. Only the jihadists are being out terrorized by Assad who has been cited for war crimes numerous times by the UN, Amnesty and Human Rights Watch.
Glenn
This is the classic kind of trash that will defend your focus on the US to the death. While the US remained in the background, the Russians, Iranians and Lebanese supported a regime that cracked down on innocent democracy seeking protesters – not unlike the ones that your boss financially supported in the Ukraine.
Craig:
Lots of assertions there, and next to no evidence.
You seem to think that I think the Syrian regime some model of moderation, another big mistake.
The problem is you are supporting extremists bent on extermination Christians in Syrian, amongst other groups. And you can’t undo your support.
Oh and by the way the Saudis are suppling the extremists with men and monies at the behest of the USA, and ironically Israel.
“…….The problem is you are supporting extremists bent on extermination Christians in Syrian, amongst other groups. And you can’t undo your support…..”
Why on fucking earth do you think I support the jihadists? I support the goal of overthrowing the Assad regime which has easily distanced the jihadists in acts of terrorism against a civilian population – whether Jew, Christian or Falun Gong.
“……Oh and by the way the Saudis are suppling the extremists with men and monies at the behest of the USA, and ironically Israel..
Yea, and maybe you would like to supply a source on that? It seems to me that you make up bullshit whenever it suits your argument.
Craig:
As for Saudis supplying arms, monies and men for various US proxy wars, see Afghanistan.
You can read Robert Parry about Syria. Other Persian Gulf states are doing some of the supplying too.
And you’re still supporting Islamic extremists in your quest to overthrow a dictator, whom you seem to have confused with his father. These extremists would kill a lot more Jews, Christians and Alawites that the current Assad likely has, and likely more than the father.
You’re a typical know nothing and learn nothing pro neo con jingoist.
Embarrassing for Ames that his so-called scoop turned out to be public information boasted about on Pierre’s website, but a serious question still looms: Marcy Wheeler said Maidan was a “coup” (echoing the knee-jerk ‘antiwar’ talking points about the omnipotent powers of the CIA) and presumably much of the First Look staff holds a similar view.
Forget about journalistic independence, can anyone in good conscience work for someone who helped fund what *they believe* was a coup?
I hope you aren’t a government worker, because by public/private partnerships including coordination with the other Great Powers, we threw a few coups in our hemisphere of influence, dozens of times.
We all simuletainiously pretending the Atlantic Charter hasn’t been torched and then capitulate it’s every word as if it isn’t worth the effort. What a bunch of predictabely sedated souls.
So up on you feet folks! Let’s bend over and get it over with of write your reps daily until they squeal or run. Don’t forget how much they like it.
I think you are jobless Indian who has lots of time posting utter nonsense in this site, and perhaps elsewhere too. Last weekend I was seeing a stupid Indian movie where the mentally retarded actress was repeating “abba dabba jabba” over and over again. So what happened to your “jabba” part of your name?
Was it an East indian or an American Indian movie, because I can get all Tonto Apache on your arse if you want me to.
I have been in film, but I was just a twinkle in Winkler’s eye. A prostitute of all things caught up in a night court.with Ron Howard, one of the really good men of Hollywood, directing. Thanks for that 1980s recall.
I never worked with Batman One who was in that show, too, but I waited on him at the baby shop. He was so shy. Howard’s wife shopped there too and was just like me and you, those folks know BS from the real meal.
My name is my father’s for me and of course you can guess where it comes from, Barney. Think stone aged.
You know dabba means lunch bucket, right? Maybe that actress was speaking to her dabba peddler or promoting someone else to perform such a task. Typically delivering dabbas is men’s work and very territorial.
Dang it, now you got me imagining a women with a disabling mental state who fights to deliver dabbas to help her family survive. She’s quite the mold breaker.
Wilma!
“He’s trusting these folks to tread safely through a forest of illegal traps that have been sprung without giving away the game to the rats or outing any of ours.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nACOyzPKidQ
I trained with Dave Lea who was the stunt man in the BM suit. Hap Ken Do!
I can’t help thinking of Hunter ST or bubble bobble on the ATARI on reading your comments. If it wasn’t a game but the rats were flying in 1966 FYI might mean something? Difficult to compete although like HST my belfry bats are like the robin who lives in the straw man that is me. My attorney has advised me to retreat to the reply section of this slaughter house.
http://cryptome.org/jya/nsa-bot.htm
This is hilarious!!
Two robots are responding to each other!! Alex the Great will lose all his hairs before he retires if he finds his pets misbehaving.
So, despite everything that’s been written, you’re determined to make the same error? Or, do I misunderstand? Perhaps you can provide a link where Wheeler explicitly wrote ” Maidan was a coup.”
She doesn’t contest it. It’s on her Twitter feed.
Repeating: Perhaps you can provide a link where Wheeler explicitly wrote ” Maidan was a coup.”
Helpful hint: definition of explicit
I read the Pando piece last night. Ames had linked to an emptywheel tweet that mentioned Ukraine had something of “coup-ness” (her word) about it. It was just an off the cuff observation – thinking out loud – like you or I would do when our curiosity is aroused by something.
He has heavily edited the piece since then, I’ve noticed after just now re-reading it. He’s a heavy handed type, apparently, having removed the links he seemed to so proudly base his false assumptions on last night.
Jesus. I didn’t make it up:
emptywheel ?@emptywheel Feb 28
You guys all focused on Yanukovich. Me, I’m wondering how many years it’ll be b4 we learn whether Brennan breaks Dulles’ record for coups.
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Petropavlovsk rebels ?@pyotr_kropotkin Feb 28
@emptywheel @DougHenwood How is a mass uprising to topple a hated leader, a coup? Even if unsavory elements made up much of the uprising.
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emptywheel ?@emptywheel Feb 28
@pyotr_kropotkin Mossadegh was hated by some. So was Arbenz. So was Allende. Were those coups? @DougHenwood
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Petropavlovsk rebels ?@pyotr_kropotkin Feb 28
@emptywheel @DougHenwood Yes, they were. But this wasn’t, unless you have evidence to the contrary?
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I have all the tweets (and just posted some below, in rough form). Kind of embarrassed to say, but I don’t know how to convert them into a link. However, I see an option to email the tweets. If you post an email address, I will send them.
Here’s an embedded link. Not sure if this works:
Just so, THG. The entire twitter exchange from which this commonly held misperception arose has been carefully re-examined, as well as reproduced for those who value self-examination, here:
One Comment on Mark Ames’ Omidyar-Ukraine Story
I have all the tweets (and just posted some below, in rough form). Kind of embarrassed to say, but I don’t know how to convert them into a link. However, I see an option to email the tweets. If you post an email address, I will send them.
Here’s an embedded link. Not sure if this works:
First of all, thanks and respect to Greenwald for responding to the Pando article. Mark Ames repeatedly stated the goal of his writing – to address and question the founding principals behind First Look. This is because it is clearly a monumentally important journalistic organization going forward and for the general public to trust its independence requires scrutiny and caution. What more salient lesson has the NSA leak taught us? With this in mind I suggest we lay off Ames and realize that he’s doing good work here, work that others appear to have neglected.
Further, the goal of the article is clearly to get The Intercept and First Look /on record/ about this independence, something Greenwald has now done and which I appreciate. Before this article, Glenn, I did not know these things about your relationship with Omidyar, and now I do.
But there is one crafty dodge in your response that I would like you to address further. Ames states that the only two journalists with _complete_ access to the Snowden leaks are yourself and Poitras. Your response is: that there are numerous media entities in possession of tens of thousands of Snowden documents”
That does not contradict the assertion. During this entire Snowden leak there has been a moving question as to how many documents there are. You state what you appear to know – that other outlets have access to a _certain amount_ of documents, but you do not state that it is the _complete_ cache. What has been made public thus far is that YOU and Poitras have the _complete_ access – thus Ames’ statement is factually correct to public knowledge and frankly your response appears to be carefully gauged to distract from this distinction.
I understand that the manner in which these documents has been made available by Snowden is of some mystery for a reason beneficial to Mr Snowden and this does justify vagueness around this topic. It has been suggested and assumed by technical people that the release of these documents to yourselves is managed by a software application and thus you may well not know what exists in total as you do not have access to the full cache at any given time. It is well within your journalistic right to express this to the public – I do not believe it would arouse unnecessary suspicion amongst anyone except for the most technically illiterate. It does not however do your integrity service to obfuscate around the topic in an attempt to refute Ames – who is technically correct as far as I can tell (and for the record I am not him haha).
Thank you again for addressing these matters – I certainly agree with your assertion that the politics of ownership is not necessarily an issue – and I believe Ames agrees with you explicitly in his Pando daily article. I hope you can understand that it is the simple magnitude of both the Snowden documents and the emerging First Look organization that has warranted these deeper questions. We are all tremendously excited by the possibility here and want to trust, but also verify. That is a very journalistic thing to do, I hope you would agree.
You’re confusing two different claims:
That Laura and I are (to my knowledge) the only ones with access to the full archive of documents that Snowden gave journalists is true, and i didn’t suggest otherwise. In fact, the only reason anyone knows that is because I’m the one who said that.
What is false – a wholesale fabrication – is that this mean that Pierre Omidyar has “exclusive access” to those documents. He has access to none of those documents, and never sought or received any access, and plays no role in deciding which ones are published. That’s what is false.
All that said, the fact that multiple other organizations have tens of thousands of documents – different sets of tens of thousands – is relevant to the various claims that Pierre is now in a position to suppress the publication of documents he wants suppressed, and that this is why he invested in this news outlet. Leaving aside that he has no idea what’s in the archive, and that he has no ability to control what Laura and I decide we want to publish, how could he possibly suppress documents in light of how many of these documents are in the hands of other news organizations?
Thank you for your reply – that does clarify. I don’t take great stock in the inference that Omidyar has access to these documents but I also don’t think that was Ames’ intent. Your refutation of that is appreciated and also what your readers have come to expect. The simple fact that Omidyar does not have access to these documents is enough to relieve any tension around his political actions – in fact his political views and actions as raised by the Ames article make this fact critical. I look forward to reading the Intercept in the future – thus far you’ve been hitting it out of the park.
>”That Laura and I are (to my knowledge) the only ones with access to the full archive of documents that Snowden gave journalists is true, and i didn’t suggest otherwise. In fact, the only reason anyone knows that is because I’m the one who said that.”
Iirc, in the past I think you have also stated that, who knows, Snowden may not have given you or Laura “all” the documents?
p.s. Can you confirm (or deny) that 1.6 million of the encrypted files confiscated by GCHQ from David Miranda were PS3 PlayStation results and ‘rap’ music downloads?
What is your source for your 1.6 million number? I am aware of a 75 and a 58,000 document number from UK witness statements but I seem to have missed the UK statement re their 1.6 million number of documents they found on the external HDD and thumb drives that David Miranda was carrying when he was detained..
And plus… Pierre doesn’t need to know and is better off NOT knowing what is contained in the sacred vault. He’s trusting these folks to tread safely through a forest of illegal traps that have been sprung without giving away the game to the rats or outing any of ours.
This isn’t quite the Beacon Press as they could publish what was entered by Rep Gravel into the public record. This is NYTs WaPo stuff going direct to press. This is far more intrepid, to go where no other has gone before. A busted down toy store full of pizzed off spooks with lots of bad deeds to hide. Scooby Snack? They’re vintage. Got ’em off Ebay.
Speaking of a Gravely voice, why not have a rep read some of these files into the public record to insure their standing in court? I’d like to see wounded vets flank he or she protecting the hardcopy files all the way around the Capital building before standing up to speak back to power with it’s own deceitful words in space poopers.
Enough of this constipated BS! Time to let the shite fly, Congress
Am I to understand that while we were fighting in Vietnam a Rep could speak truth into a record, but today, after that sacrifice and compounding losses, we don’t even get to talk back anymore? YGBSM!
Hoave any Reps entered these stories and those from same sources int the public record? I guess the judge who made that call has left his suspended for argument in a higher court? How stoned is that?
What am I saying? (as if I didn’t know) The public record means nothing to many in court these days. The fact they are violating is easily dismissed away by some judge’s latent reasoning.
I remember when even conservative judges couldn’t swallow crap that deep.
Adam Colligan, whose twitter exchange with Marcy was cherry-picked for this hyperbolic eructation, was practically first in line in the comment section to tell Ames – and his conjoined homonculus Paul Carr – that they were farting up the wrong tree. Of course he used more respectful language, even though it wasn’t deserved. That forced Carr to place a correction into the piece within a couple of hours of it going live and the deconstruction has continued ever since.
It’s a shame you, Marcy or anyone else has to waste time and keystrokes dealing with their breathless, sweaty, wannabe wet dreams. And good on you for not bothering to deal with it until this morning. Just because Ames and Carr have no life aside from Pando and twitter, as well as an appalling lack of awareness of different time zones – “It’s been TWO HOURS and no one from First Look has responded to our tantrum!!!!!” – doesn’t mean everyone else needs to subject themselves to the same umbilical cords.
Homunculi, those two. Hilarious!
Is that another way to say Adam is cross-eyed over into Paul’s field of vision?
I had to look up homunculus (plural is homunculi) as I had never run across it before. Wikipedia has a few paragraphs on its origin and meaning. It means “little people”.
It means “little people”.
The specific definitions I had in mind:
Take your pick. ;-}
No, no,no,no,no.
It’s your own reversed reflection in the cornea of your eye. See Yahoo in same at the Optic Nerve story. Through history, different peoples made different assumptions about who those little fers were, but of course we all know it’s US! Every man has his own little men.
But who would have guessed they flip upside down inside our heads? Retinal distortions? That’s not their fault. They are just suffering from spherical aberrations.
@Pedinska definition 2 I believe is the foundation Rick Perry is using as Governor of Texas to give sperm the full rights of the zygote, hence outlawing any use of prophylactics or birth control whatever (prison sentencing the penalty) in line with keeping “the quiver full of newborns” . . . Otherwise known as the “keep ’em barefoot and pregnant” theory?
Those little f-ers drove men to distraction, particularly when the mirrors got clearer. Then the lenses and OMG folks thought they could see men on the MOON! How self-centered of ourselves!
Doesn’t Faust have something to sing about those?
“Keep your eyes on the road and your hands upon the wheel” *The Doors
Glenn, son-brother, what are doing? There is nothing ‘new’ about this Pando/Ames ‘shit&grin’ rancid honey trap piece of work. .. that I want (or needed?) to know. Burp.
*by co-incidence, reading the Ames piece yesterday evening, I got precisely to the point where Ames claimed Pierre “has exclusive access to the NSA secrets” … and decided any further attention to this matter would be cutting into my love-life time!
*Now, if you want to do something useful this morning, why don’t you poke Micah Lee and ask him whats up w/ Google Analytics. As I understand it (which is very damn little!) GA :
>”Google Analytics is a service offered by Google that generates detailed statistics about a website’s traffic and traffic sources and measures conversions and sales. The product is aimed at marketers as opposed to webmasters and technologists from which the industry of web analytics originally grew. It is the most widely used website statistics service.[1 …usage of traffic analysis tools for webmasters]
Since TI is a ‘non-profit’, and lord have mercy I see no ad.ver.tise.ments, … I think even some of the ‘glennbot culties’ are restless?
thx in advance,
bah.
~ on a personal note, preview and a larger dialog box would be nice too.
OMG, you be a Scooby, 2!
I figured out it’s the mobile ad networks and the apps, Daphne. Have you stumbled on to Dito apps? They do it for inside clients. You don’t have to share when it’s only business. GCHQ will do the sharing FOR you!
Heavens to Betsy!
>”I figured out it’s the mobile ad networks and the apps, Daphne.”
What are you babbling about abbadabadoo? And who is Daphne?
*did I mention I’ve applied for the TI moderator position, should one become available, and I don’t allow no fake silly comment generators. .. get thee behind me.
I got my 1971 decoder ring on, sorry. You are the pretty one who helps solve mysteries with that shaggy dog crew. Don’t you guess I’m the one with the glasses and knee socks?
You’ve delved into the monetizing mechanism of this whackity jackity platform and I was letting you know what my effort had displayed. By way of aps and mobile ad network scrapy crawlers, they capture our intelligence. Right? Now, where’s my Scooby snack?
Every Dadaist in opposition to an increasingly militarily regimented society sends you muchos besos with a raspberry on top.
I see you like to hold free associates hostage to your mindset. If this ecosystem cannot survive a miserable bee grieving the only way she knows how, I’ll be glad to bow to your plow, buzz killer. Why so afraid of gaity? Why demand sanity in times of madness?
Am I to become your LUCKY baggage handler? Find someone else to make tears to entertain your “friends” Prima-Pozo.
Chrome is always trying to make file copies of what Micro’s already storing for me. it won’t leave me alone. So what you wanna bet we are paying many times over for the same BS on ourselves? I really detest inefficiency, you’d think these fascist would be better at it. But they have learned to turn hay into gold, gotta give them a Bitcoin for that.
Well, my dwell time should make my presence worthy if only for substantial monetizing metrics, reich? I’m just clogging up the airwaves to make it hard for GCHQ to hear. How many railroads does it take to move a planet’s populism into cold storage? What if you do it five times with multiple replicating sources?
i’m sure you’ve read about heat mapping, recording the part of the screen where your mouse dwells? Even if your cat is using it? Push my belly button, MEOW!!
I disagree with those who say GG should ignore the smears. They smear because ignorant people will buy it. If those ignorant people aren’t educated with facts, they will continue buying it.
Glenn should reserve his retorts for teaching moments; he’s got bigger fish to fly than flies. This is worthy because it’s fair warning to those who would try to screw with wild weasels. Go Honey Badgers.
A mad woman can change her mind. This turns out to snuff out any discussion of a far superior piece by Marcy on the method by which the DoJ has made crime legal.
Don’t we want to know how Holder does it so we can honey badger our reps about it? Someone else doesn’t want you to know and even Glenn missread that maneuver. It happens to all SAMs getting wild weaseled, sir. Falling for a fake invader. They got you off you feed an into their bucket. Mother duck it. Aren’t you glad that’s not live fire?
Time to double back to base to see what they wanted off the radar, sir. 12333 is NOT the culprit, It’s HOLDER!! No wonder he felt sick about it.
For me the great question that this discussion proposes is: can independent journalism exist on oligarch funding? Fortunately the answer is yes as Greenwald’s own journalistic proveS.
Thanks for once more dotting the is.
While supporting Glenn’s journalism I do see a problem here. He has given up working for The Guardian, which for all its lack of spine is a genuine newspaper with a long history, and gone to work for a billionaire on what is, essentially, a blog. How many people read Glenn’s articles in The Guardian? How many people read them on The Intercept? The Guardian detests the Russians and publishes all manner of propaganda against them, but it doesn’t financially intervene in the politics of Ukraine, Chile or Nigeria. Glenn’s new paymaster does. Was Glenn denied journalistic freedom by The Guardian? Does a better salary compensate for what I suspect is a greatly reduced readership?
In what regard is the Guardian “a genuine newspaper” while this is merely a “blog”? What are your criteria for that? Is it that the Guardian publishes in paper form? If it stopped publishing a paper version, which it very well may do quite soon – because almost nobody reads it and it loses so much money – then will it, too, overnight be transformed into just a “blog”?
By your reasoning, nobody should ever leave an established institution to create anything new. The reason this opportunity excited me to much was precisely because we’re going to be able to build it from the ground up into a major media outlet, based on the journalistic principles I believe in and with the people whose journalism I most admire.
As for readership size, you seem to have a 1983 understanding of how media works. I have a very portable readership, and especially now, a big platform no matter where I write. The readership for the NSA stories I’ve written here in the last 3 weeks have been huge – very comparable to the articles I wrote at the Guardian and, in a couple of cases, even larger. And it’s only going to grow.
I think the “Its only legitimate journalism if its done by established traditional journalistic outlets” is a necessary prerequisite to the next step which is, its only journalism if done by a licensed journalist.
I don’t mean The Guardian has legitimacy simply because it has a print edition. The Guardian is a newspaper which has existed for a very long time and has an established readership and reputation. Whereas anyone with access to WordPress can put together a site like this one. In what way is a concern for number of readers “1983”? If the readership for your NSA articles on The Intercept is comparable to the readership for your Guardian articles, or exceeds them, then that is a very good thing, whether by 1983 or 2014 standards!
The measure of a media organization’s worth is how sophisticated their website is? As we made clear, we launched earlier than ideal – before we were really ready – because we had an obligation to the NSA story to have a place to report it the way we wanted. The WordPress choice was just a way to have a workable system to do that quickly while our actual infrastructure is built over a longer-term, because doing the reporting now was more important to us than anything else (you’ll notice there are no ads as well).
And you’re saying that any blog can hire the number and types of journalists we’ve hired, along with the New Yorker’s General Counsel to come and defend our press freedoms, along with the teams of outside law firms we have, along with the hordes of experts available to us to do this reporting, along with all the technical people who are assisting us? I wasn’t aware of that – I always thought that took a very well-funded institution to be able to put together.
It’s not the concern for readership size that is obsolete. It’s the assumption that you have to be at a large media organization in order to attract one that is.
Greenwald dropping some knowledge
No matter the venue, no one has ever put a gag order on Glenn Greenwald, unlike, for example, the folks over at MSNBC:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/21/msnbc-hosts-wga-petition-comcast_n_4830311.html
BTW, I know this site is still under construction, and I’m eagerly looking forward to the day when we can all have faces.
Appears my earlier comment was eaten by the ether. Too many hyperlinks, I suspect. No point in reproducing a comment that argued that this reply to Ames and Carr is a waste of time. The degree of their confirmation bias will prevent them from internalizing anything Glenn has written in his response. And, the folks who would be successfully reassured by Glenn’s rebuttal will only tip over again on the next Ames/Carr salvo. Like some maddening infinitely recursive computer loop, this call and response is destined to go on for forever until one party pulls the power cord.
The point that might be more useful – and it’s not one I can’t make easily or well – is one power center can only be challenged by an equally strong power center. From an old systems perspective: Any institution (physical, cultural, political…) can only be effectively challenged by another institution. In our current state, “it takes a billionaire to challenge a billionaire.” The resources arrayed to maintain the status quo are profound. Only an entity with similar resources can hope to effectively challenge that status quo.
There are some who see this partnership with Omidyar as some kind of sell out. Glenn fails a purity test. I imagine that Glenn’s cred would be better secured if he were some lone voice on Google’s Blogger; a position from which he could be safely marginalized and ignored by all but those whose standards for purity were satisfied. But, Snowden’s docs, and the sacrifice he made to bring them forward, demand something better than that. The Guardian‘s experience with UK laws probably suggests that Glenn was going to have to separate sooner or later. And, it remains to be seen whether Omidyar will swallow hard or fold when Glenn hits on a topic that causes Omidyar some real grief. I figure that’ll happen sooner or later, too. I’m relatively confident that I know what Glenn’s response will be. Omidyar is yet untested.
But, the point remains; to be an effective challenge – one that can make a difference – only equivalently positioned power centers can challenge each other. And, it our currently constructed world we need the Omidyars to make common cause on significant issues affecting democratic participation.
Whoops! It did appear. Must have been caught in a queue somewhere. Apologies for redundancy.
I waited all Friday morning for a three link platter to be served. Sometimes these things end up in sequestration and we have no idea why. But now that we know, we don’t have to make replicating fools of ourselves. Once will quite suffice. I reorder thrice.
If it doesn’t deliver, it’s not dominoes. It’s still safe to get the door.
Another saturday night and I have a lot to read – thank you :-D
my current fantasy is that Jeremy Scahill will win The Oscar and – like Michael Moore – will spread the truth just that much wider, THANKS for The Intercept and good luck. P.S. Watch your backs!
Hard to decide between Jeremy’s so worthy film and the film about our similar goon squading in Indonesia which was never even reprimanded for the prize. The film maker let the atroucous make their own case against themselves. It’s important to recognize what folks who presume impunity sound like bragging about it. Sickening like some at NSA and GCHQ.
It’s the same horrible human story of our miserable failings. I wish they could tie.
Unless they truly think someone bought your ethics (disproved by the articles on this site) I don’t understand what they are getting at. Do Glenn, Jeremy, Laura and Matt’s records not stand on their own merits? They certainly do for me. Even though I found the Pando article to be a non-story in many ways, I appreciate your thorough dismantling of it. Been enjoying the site and the journalists on it.
I am an old reader/old fan of GG for many years. And I reckon if he were viewing his current predicament from the outside he would making the same criticisms that I and others make of him now. To address a couple things from the article: If GG wants to claim to be independent, why not go back to the old reader supported model that he used to use? Also, I doubt that many people criticizing Omidiyar were very enthusiastic about the obvious IMF/NATO operation going down in Ukraine. (What is the new President’s former job I wonder?) I’ve been twice to Ukraine, traveled around independently as I’ve done in many places, so I immediately knew the ‘protest’ stank to high hell cuz even if the west of Ukraine is ‘pro west’ its sure isn’t by very much. Also, I live in Istanbul and to see the difference between the organic nature of the Gezi Park protests here versus the ones that GG’s boss Pierre Omidiyar helped fund is very clear and obvious. Just look at videos of the protesters in Ukraine. Look at their tactics. Compare with those of Thailand, Turkey, South Korea, etc etc. And GG is just gonna be like ”so what?” ”I’ve got independent editorial control!” ”Doesn’t matter what my boss does!” And, Firstlook is making is name reporting on the intelligence state. But, Omidiyar is a part of the intelligence state. (Worked with Paypal to block wiki leaks as well as prosecuted a bunch of people who took action against PayPal, the ‘Paypal 14′). So that is what is called a conflict of interest. How can that be denied? Now Omidiyar is accused of funding ‘protesters’ who have De-stabalized Ukraine to the point that, as I write this the Russian military continues to build up on the borders and the Russian parliment has given permission for intervention. I mean, yeah, sure claim ”journalistic independence.” Thats cool, but what if I said, ”Hey guys I have editorial control of this anti-big energy blog, my boss is David Koch, but don’t worry I have editorial independence!” ”…and furthermore I don’t care about his or his brother’s political views, not important!” I mean I wouldn’t even believe the words out of my own mouth. And lets be honest how many times have GG changed the story as the the number of docs released? What’s up with that? Seems like some pretty basic info to be messing up if you ask me. Anyway maybe that is not important to some of you, maybe just a small detail. However, watch what happens in Ukraine and know that GG’s boss helped support that, why cuz he is a billionare. Billionares don’t make money, they steal it…which is exactly what is about to happen to Ukraine as IMF come in to ‘structurally adjust’ the wealth of Ukraine from the people to the bankers and large corporations. Let’s hope that’s the worst of it and that this situation doesn’t lead to war.
“But, Omidiyar is a part of the intelligence state. (Worked with Paypal to block wiki leaks as well as prosecuted a bunch of people who took action against PayPal, the ‘Paypal 14?). So that is what is called a conflict of interest. How can that be denied?” – David Griffith
Glenn already responded to this (couldn’t remember where. Anybody else got that link?) Omidyar
wasn’t the controlling interest at Paypal anymore when all this happened and having voiced an
opposition to blocking WL, published an op-ed in his newspaper in Hawaii stating so.
But Glenn! So what if Omidyar Network long ago announced in a press release — available online — its contributions to the Ukrainian opposition — Pando had documents in Russian. That’s cool, what with the Cyrillic alphabet and all, and allowed them to look way sophisticated.
But seriously. You don’t really write about Eastern European politics, and I don’t believe that you, Laura or Jeremy ever wrote about Omidyar Network before First Look. Yet it is supposed to be oh-so-damning that in the three weeks The Intercept has been running, the three of you didn’t publish this “story.” (Nobody else did either, until Pando manufactured this “controversy.”)
Horseshit, all the way down.
Yes, Swami Glenn should have looked in his crystal kook ball for Pando’s ‘revelation’.
The Russian parliament just gave Putin the go-ahead for military action in Ukraine. This may be how the world ends — in a pissing contest over international law between the presidents of the US and Russia.
Take a look at what happened in Georgia/South Ossetia a few years ago. Georgia’s president Saakashvili invaded disputed territory it had lost in a war in 1991-92 and Russia sent in troops to protect the Russian minority. The US was behind Saakashvili and even now the MSM continues to portray that 4 day incident as Russian aggression whereas the EU determined Georgia was the aggressor.
This very same thing is being played out again in Ukraine. The bottom line, to put it simplistically, is that the West does not want any large portion of Europe with natural resources and sea access, to align itself with Russia. When Yanukovych allied himself with Russia over the EU it was only a matter of time before pro-Western groups would protest against that move.
The view of many Eastern Europeans is that working with the EU will be beneficial for them. What they don’t realize, and what workers in Romania, Bulgaria, the Czech Republic and others are finding out, is that the EU wants to use the educated workers in these countries the way that US corporations use educated workers in India, as low-paid drones while the elites enrich themselves through their connections to the west.
Well done Mr. Greenwald.
Do you know Spain’s best newspaper editor (El Mundo), Pedro Ramirez (twitter @pedroj_ramirez) has been fired due to government pressure because of his independence? Do you know his English is excellent? Please consider hiring him!
This is a typical example of some self-important wannabe newsies and influencials trying to set an agenda.
I think that most of the ‘prominent’ journalists, including the MSNBC hypocrites, are all upset that it became apparent that, when Snowden decided to do his thing, he picked Laura Poitras and Glenn Greenwald to do it with him. Why? Because they.could.be.trusted. The media stars…could not.
Hi Glen,
I’m following you, but I don’t follow you.
the Pando article is filled with factual inaccuracies, including one extremely serious one:
but;
The writer said; two people with exclusive access to the “complete” Snowden NSA cache. Yet, you point out that he’s steadfastly ignoring that there are numerous media entities in possession of “tens of thousands” of Snowden documents. — It seems odd that I need to point this out. There is obvious significance here, and coming from someone as calculated, and otherwise comprehensive as you seem to be, I find it hard to avoid the feeling that your response is by design avoiding his precise comment. And this naturally raises suspicion, and along with that, other questions.
So, I guess since we’re talking about “factual inaccuracies” here, can you explain?
Why does your team get full, unfettered access to the documents, yet not one single other entity does? You’ve stated that your team has to evaluate each of the documents prior to disclosure. I get that. So, is it accurate to say that to a certain degree, you’re controlling which stories are told by which outlets?
Many people are under the impression that you have a bombshell disclosure(s) still to come. In fact, I am one of those people. Considering the impact these revelations have on each and every one of us, I think it’s fair to ask what criteria you are using in deciding who reports what.
Please know that I do my best daily to educate others as to what is happening, as best I can. Depressingly, most of the people that I speak with, haven’t a clue, nor interest in what’s going on with these revelations. I also hope that you take this message as feedback, and not critique. The better I that can understand what’s happening, the better that I can share with those that don’t. Share and raise awareness. After all, isn’t that what we really want?
And finally; please accept my apologies if any of my aforementioned questions have been previously answered. I’ve been following the story since day 1 and am trying to avoid the growing chorus of; “oh well, just more of the same stuff from GG and his team”. This is potentially indicative of a diminishing return, and I think that’s dangerous.
Thanks to any and all that help shed some light.
Considering the impact these revelations have on each and every one of us, I think it’s fair to ask what criteria you are using in deciding who reports what. … Thanks to any and all that help shed some light.
Glenn wrote a post last December addressing the question you highlighted above, as well as why he has chosen to respond to Ames et. al. Glenn’s response to your question is under number 2.
Questions/responses for journalists linking to the Pando post – and other matters
I hope you find this helpful! :-)
I get this responspe from hitting your link.
Sorry James. I was unaware of any issues. It wasn’t my intent to send anyone to a place that posed harms. The link went to the blog of someone who was commenting on and linked to the actual twitter exchange Marcy was involved in that was misinterpreted by Ames.
Anyone with a Twitter account can log in and search emptywheel’s tweets. It’s pretty recent – from last night and should be easy to find.
Cheers.
No worries. Its probably at my end anyway, wouldn’t be the first time. the internet closed its doors to me.
Wild, I’m having the same diff. Pretty sure it’s the selectively-strict settings we’ve got on our Firefoxes.
James and all, there seems to be some problem whenever I try to use html to include a link within text. Here is the link directly.
http://utdocuments.blogspot.com.br/2013/12/questionsresponses-for-journalists.html
The answer to your question “Why does your team get full unfettered access to the documents ..” seems obvious to me. Because Snowden trusted Laura and Glenn, contacted them, met them in Hong Kong, and gave THEM the documents.
Great response, Glenn. Cacophony of crickets ensues.
Thanks;)
Thanks, Glenn! You’re the best!
Attack, Distract, Disrupt – sounds like a NSA plan. First attack the messenger, then the vehicle, then the fuel/finances that run it.
I won’t say anyone in particular at Pando is a private contractor for the NSA, but this article is exactly the type of thing the NSA would approve of. Divide and conquer.
Glenn, don’t waste your time and energy. That’s their whole point. And remember, if they can’t drone you, they’ll send flies to bug you.
“I won’t say anyone in particular at Pando is a private contractor for the NSA, but this article is exactly the type of thing the NSA would approve of. Divide and conquer.”
That’s exactly what I was thinking only I didn’t know how to say as well as you did.
Dear Glenn
Don´t apply logic to this lot, reason will not hinder your critics.
Have a drink, do a little dance and enjoy your weekend.
Neither knowing nor becoming aware of an employer’s socio-political investments is probably the best reference one can offer about remaining independent and not susceptible to influence from that quarter.
Well done.
Running the world is just a step up from running ebay. It’s a comforting thought to many people that a few rich men are pulling all the strings. It absolves them from having to look at the real causes of all the chaos in the world.
It was really quite breathtaking to hear Obama telling Putin that Ukraine is a sovereign state and that any Russian military action would be a violation of international law.
Yes, Putin blew it.
He should have had FSB hide a bomb in the Ukraine Olympic barracks. Explode it a few days prior to the opening ceremonies (thereby hiding the shoddy workmanship every reporter in the world found.)
Then, following the massive press coverage, have FSB craft a press release — ostensibly from the Free Ukrainians People’s Army — calling the Ukrainian athletes pawns of the tyrannical Viktor F. Yanukovych,.
Then enlist US aid in fighting terrorism..
Only then, only after establishing the foundation for intervention, announce to the world that Russia would be following the example of the US perpetual war on terrorism.
Then he could send the entire Russian army into the Ukraine to fight the terrorists with the blessings of the US.
Doesn’t anyone read the news anymore?
So Putin should fund the other half of the Ukraine in opposition of Obama funding. That wouldn’t violate international law. Yet it would seem that Putin would have a greater interest in the outcome of this problem on his border than the US. What would the US do if Mexico was going through the same coup as the Ukraine? Would our military stand by and leave a sovereign country to work itself out? Oh yeah, we could just interfere with drone strikes or give air support either solely or with a coalition. No violation there.
Fund and arm a few drug kingpins, call them a threat to Mexico and cooperate with Mexican authorities to destroy the drug thugs.
Geesh.
Easy as pot pie.
The entire FirstLook media organization is a cleverly constructed front for Pierre Omidyar.
Glenn was actually hired to be the General of Pierre’s private army of democracy loving Libertarian freedom fighters in the Ukraine. Jeremy Scahill is his Colonel. All those years Jeremy spent in Yemen were not to document innocent drone victims but instead to train future FirstLook journalists in the art of political revolution.
Anonymous sources who wish to remain unknown have leaked to me fully redacted documents proving that Glenn was handing out cookies with assistant U.S. Secretary of State Victoria Nuland in the Ukraine to neo-Nazi soldiers linked to the radical right wing political party Svoboda in late 2013.
In a series of photos leaked to me from the same nonexistent source Glenn can be seen in a Yahoo webcam chat with Laura Poitras discussing installing boxing champ Wladimir Klitschko as their primary pick to take over the Ukranian presidency after their army forcibly removes Viktor Yushchenko from office.
Notice how Glenn artfully dodges mentioning any of these indisputable facts in his response. I believe the word “Busted” is appropriate here!
+1
You forgot to mention that boxing champ Wladimir Klitschko’s main squeeze, actress Hayden Panettiere, has been sleeping with Glenn… :-) Gotta make this stuff JUICY, you know?
+2
Either you agree with me or you’re a Satan worshiping cannibal.
And if you deny being a Satan worshiping cannibal and yet refuse to agree with me, then you’re even worse than a Satan worshiping cannibal.
You’re a hypocrite!!
Because if you’re not a misanthrope, you’re not paying attention.
:
Obvious smear campaign beginning. Keep hitting them Glenn – its obvious now they are beginning to sustain damage, and the truth is hurting them. Even some Senators, and MPs are now raising concerns and criticisms. They are under attack, and we have smashed their bots.
Glenn you are the real John Connor, my hero, along with Edward Snowden, and Julian Assange and Sky Nets coming down !!!
I agree with most commenters here: this is much ado about nothing and in the future I think Glenn is entirely justified to simply ignore such silly, baseless attacks- of which there will no doubt be many.
As the old saying goes, “Be careful not to argue with idiots, an on-looker may not be able to tell the difference”
it’s still worth the occasional clear Signal, on the record, to contrast with the slipshod, petty Noise (which at worst, could tilt fence-sitters the wrong – as in erroneous – way).
Ya Glenn, I woke up this morning and it was eyes wide open. I don’t really understand where all this came from….As you pointed out, there are 20 days of Intercept articles here,,,,Does it appear that your style or subject matter have been censored?
I have been buzzing the Conning at full Mach and nothing seems to block a thing in this modern silo some might call a Tower. I only experienced a morning’s delay on some links I tried to serve which were left on the system until three orders came up for same links. That was a curious delay, a sequestration? I’m not a systems analyst I just like to play one on TV. Glenn’s been under surveillance and operational harassment by private and public partnerships for years, ever since Wiki I believe. But he did write for a neo-con rag so persuasively you can tell he’s a master of adversarial skills.
Ironic the government now considers taking adversarial positions to legal policy a criminal offense. Our system is adversarial. I keep offering them conflict resolution, but should we really permit so much domestic abuse to continue without reporting it to police? WHAT POLICE?
WHO CUSTODERATES THE CUSTODIANS?
Mr. Greenwald, excellent.
Give them no quarter.
You are re-defining Journalistic Independence.
perhaps you were speaking figuratively, but no, he’s reminding the muddle-headed of the actual definition. the jabbering pearl-clutchers will leap on any opportunity to pretend that he’s “re-defining” anything.
“Can someone please succinctly explain why this is a scandal that needs to be addressed, particularly by First Look journalists? That’s a genuine request.”
Nope. I don’t think a coherent explanation is possible.
But I do think Obama is about to start World War III, if he hasn’t done so already. And the main stream media is ruthlessly and relentlessly cheering for it. Maybe everyone should be up in arms about that instead.
“But I do think Obama is about to start World War III, if he hasn’t done so already.”
Sadly, he is too inept to do that.
Sadder still, Obama is only doing what his handlers tell him to do.
Perhaps World War III is quite possibly in the offing. They need some way to re-start the stalled Global Economy for their New World Order.
Yep. Thet dark feller in our WHITE House is gonna start WW3, so us Teathugs otta stop him…oh…we WANT that?
Never mind.
Well,i guarantee the Ron Paul contingent of the tea party doesn’t,but of course the original impetus for that movement has been co-opted by the re- thugs.
For the monsters to attack this early means that they are scared of The Intercept.Keep up the good work.
Hey Nete,
Wrong tree. I am not a Teethug. I am tired of Obama dropping bombs on people, and now he is threatening Russia.
I can’t tell the difference between Obama’s foreign policy and the foreign policy of Cheney and Rumsfeld.
No Shit!
Nete Peedham-
Wow.
You impressed me.
You managed to string those words together and almost make a complete sentence.
this is the kind of convolvulation in which donger would mistake me for an Obama apologist. the ONLY thing i have to say in “his” defense is that the smallest, most bigoted minds against him don’t deserve to see him be the first properly-disgraced prez/CiC/etc. (and don’t go telling me Nixon got nearly enough of what he had coming.)
seriously, they’d only need to throw Killinger under the bus first and i’d be good.
Folks who want to make calls on this Ukrainian issue based on this administrations’ part must not understand the Russian heart. Vlad is much more Stalin than a Lenin. He’s not concerned about bloodshed or starvation, either. Look at who he shelters in Syria.
He built that dud Sochi as another station for his military, folks, and of course it’s near vital Baku oil shipping ports. No one wastes that many billions on Hospitality that showed so poorly. He’s centering himself for what is really and always has been the prize in anyone’s eyes since the 1800s. Baku.
Check out the Battle for Baku when Stalin left the Brits high and dry in onion domed oil fields fighting off the Ottoman’s Jumjums raiding around on camels. Surreal? History, folks. This is the same wargame.
The Brits had to limp out of port under fire and go home like wayward Homer’s. Instead, AIC got the digs from Baku to Petrograd, bite me, BP! Presently, what isn’t piped from Baku to Turkey’s club Med otherwise it’s shipped to Europe by way of the Black Sea. Risky business, folks. Oil future’s kinda shite. Let’s see how that slot plays with the USA’s new surplus of fracking chips.
Sorry to stink like a pirate, but when you seek to discover them, you start to stink like them, too. I’ve read the PlayB%k.
The Russian heart?Please spare US your ethnic hatreds.And your use of Brits also reminds me of that same theme.The world held hostage to eons of accumulated grievances manifested in the 21st century,oy.
Obviously I meant Putin thinks himself a Valantino to all Russians, even the Ukrainian ones. For good sake, are WE at war over ridiculous ridiculing rhetoric? So Saary to pizz you off.
For blood’s sake, I owe my profound idiocy to my Plantagenet roots. Most Brits are FRENCH and resent being called ENGLISH! I should know, Eleanor’s my G-Gma. And there’s Gpa John, the fracking folder. Only kin who left me anything. Magna Carta, can’t wear it OUT!
If you want to duel over ethnic hatred, I can cite you too many bloody fields, don’t throw them in MY face. I abhor war. That diss was for BP, Stalin screwed over the Brits. Are you a corporatist hugging BP lover?
Three makes a pattern and a theatrical bore.
I would not expect a soul to respond to my drawling all over myself, but each has begun their go away with a quote from the first paragraph of my peacock display. How shallow can you miserable pheasant flushers think?
If you think I sound generated, I’d like to meet my doppleganger, but that’s three times folks failed to find better fault in my displays. Have to read the whole field to see the repeat patterns. Lazy, lazy, call me crazy but you stink at subterfuge.
I’m driving you to distraction, no? Then why can’t you look away? Push my belly button, GCHQ, MEOW!
there are few things i know, but one is far better than to suspect an artificial source where your presentipation is concerned. i reckon for the most part that those who fancy themselves ~plain dealers~ have simply avoided expressing themselves “too much” (perhaps even going so far as to keep out of any circles including such expressors, or blocking the all-pigment noise of such).
lacking suitable familiarity/habit, they presume that they have no time for parsing such stuff. fair enough, well and good, no accounting for taste, etc… but sadly they cross the line into needless aspersions, betraying the very premise that has kept them isolated from a comfy grasp of your [lovely!] jib/jibes/gibbering/jive.
which reminds me, i need to run that parsnip gremolata test soon. my hat, were i to find one big enough, is off to you, parson!
No, Obama’s main goal for this entire Presidency is to start the war with Iran. Or more precisely, let Israel start the war so he can be blameless and continue to cherish his thoroughly undeserved Nobel Peace Prize. Starting a war with Syria – still in the cards – is just the prelude to the war on Iran.
Starting WWIII would interfere with that Israeli agenda and Obama NEVER does that because he obeys the Crown and Pritzker families in Chicago and does nothing to alter their agenda which consists of 1) support Israel, and 2) profit from the military-industrial complex.
Obama is just a Pre-Emancipation South plantation foreman…
FTFY
I don’t know what’s worse: the misinformation that Glenn points out or just the total waste of time that the Pando “journalism” inflicts on us (including Glenn for sure!). That part where they go after Marcy Wheeler based on a couple of tweets is ridiculous. Any “journalist” that doesn’t have the good sense to use the working assumption that twitter is “out of context” by default simply should not be considered a reliable purveyor of news.
They should be ashamed of their shoddy work, and should know that it greatly undermines the work of peers such as David Sirota who go after the rich and powerful in a much more legitimate and considered way. It appears like a desperate effort to marginalize First Look before it barely gets out of the starting gate that will backfire on them.
For the life of me, I can’t understand why Sirota continues to write there and also was part of their nsfwcorp site.
Rollotomasi, could I ask you to clarify what exactly do you think is less legitimate, or less considered in the style of the journalism in The Intercept, compared to the approach taken by David Sirota ? Do you also really think that this publication is all about “going after the rich and powerful” ?
” That part where they go after Marcy Wheeler based on a couple of tweets is ridiculous.”
Indeed, especially when you read in the comment section, what the tweets were really in regards to, as explained by the person who was having the conversation. Unbelievable how the schmuck who wrote the article twisted them inside out.
So he DID take a swing at a girl? Good, because I accused him of being a coward for ignoring the girls and the rest of the crew in this squadron. Of course I’m not wasting my time reading the little chirp’s mocking calls. i’m sure by linkage we could dress him like a doll.
I declare Wiley the Wild Weasel the obviously unofficial, as it’s still likely in copyright, mascot of the Interceptors. Or we can get some hot graphic jock to take a shot at one. Wiley used to rile up East German SAMs to get them to take a peek at him so he could sneak a peek at their radar love before they locked on and shot him out of the sky. Thus he learned to take these huge phosphorous shites just like a stinking honey badger and the SAMS would miss target like they wanted to avoid it. They were heat seeking, not furlined.
Wiley’s motto is “You Gotta Be Shitting Me.” Here’s what he looks like.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wild_Weasels_patch.jpg
I feel like that every time GCHQ drops another payload. No wonder Sherlock could give a rat’s about “nation.” GCHQ doesn’t care about it, so why do their dirty work?.
I’d carry a canvas bag with Wiley’s looks. Hope to get one, soon. Money looking for a market! Who’s got the rights?
We’re cleared in hot, hell fliers. Public domain, my favorite mainframe! folks sell them at of all places, EBay!!
Now the Intercept just needs to accept the compliment. Can we fly your colors as a wilie interceptors who can fight with deranged cobras? Honey badger is the wildest weasel of them all. They will bite your balls off, both male and female.
You win the thread…hands down.
My father thanks you for that. I let him drive half the time. I got all kinds of spooks in my backseat. From which he suggests GCHQ can get a job sucking old farts from in the rear.
Ratz, @oncade already copped riffing off Optic Nerve.
I used that this AM in my emails to my reps I like to call my morning show. Since we got connections, I can always tug a heart sting or two wit those three. Flakes and my kin hung rustlers together. McCain dropped “maverick” when I shot down ripping off General Butler, the REAL fasci-fighter a vet won’t regret standing with. My daddy was a Nammy, too.
But what are you going to say to the man of moderation who took a bullet? Barber. It’s always been the coolest AZ district.
Get out of the middle or get out of the way, Ron, because there is no splitting the Tree of Liberty.
That US Rep seat has held Mo’s butt, a gay Republican’s, Gabby’s lovely soul and this man with True Grit’s, but dang it, it’s time to take a stand, pardners!! Yer either with Liberty or gonna get rung by her bell.
There’s hell to pay on that Hill. Don’t make us git a rope. Yup, Tom Horn worked for my GGpa. It’s all Breaking Bad back in the day. But we are gonna do this clean, like a real democracy, the dirtiest clean you ever did see.
Always throwing out the possibility of truth and reconciliation for these crooks, but they still seem sure they are getting away with it. It’s just a matter of time…Tap, tap, tap, tap, tip.
OMG, Glenn, love the backstory on the press and must suggest “The Press of the Plutocracy” a chapter of Lundberg’s “America’s 60 Families.”
.
Tommy Lamont, now there’s a JP Morgan partner who figured out how to cover for fascists!
Hammer TIME.
One will need to take their data with a grain of salt and maybe a shot of tequila. These days feel all fracking Mexican Revolution up in my joints. Where’s my magical puppy warmers? Come here, lifeguards!
The West and the Russians tearing apart a poor nation for coup creds while everyone stands back because when honey badgers fight, it smells like death warmed over from a hundred years war. I am getting so old.
Is that writer simply trying to mix some hot chocolate with some chunky peanut batter to get published? Who wouldn’t love to cuddle a two stage missive full of tension and fear?
“…they do it over there, but we don’t do it here…
“…Beep, beep!…”
Waffles are up.
Hay, batter, batter, batter, WIFF!
Let’s make an issues matrix and see which present day horrors will go well with one another. One from column “our team stinks,” and one from column “theirs does, two.” Go, Honey Badgers.
Why take a side? Both stink to hell for pushing folks into this well intentioned imperialdickoff.
All that’s gonna wind up happening is the World Bank gets to suck what life’s left standing while a whole lot of human and nationals’ treasures go down the drain. Abstain from action, let the world react. We can shame that Vlad back to base. His fake revolution is a big disgrace, sticking his peephole all over the place.
We will, we will waffle!!!
It is so discouraging to see this. And, dispiriting to see some, who I expected to know better, advance the demand for a response. Every time we creep forward a step or two, it seems the impetus to undermine the forward energy emerges from a space you’d imagine ought to be allies. Utterly baffling. No good deed goes unpunished.
If I were to fault Omidyar for his investment sentiments, I’d have to fault him for the same sentiment that underpins his investment in First Look. There are those who really would argue against transparency, and advocacy for democratic processes in which citizens are fully informed. That Mark Ames and Paul Carr would take this implicit position in order to blindly “score points” makes me question their mental stability, and their veracity as conveyors or anything approaching small t truth. It’s blatantly dishonest.
This claim that Omidyar has some exclusive access to the Snowden docs made me grind my teeth. There is nothing you could say, or nothing that Omidyar could say, that will dissuade them from the fabrication. There is no “proof” anyone could offer. What was that phrase that so often gets applied to Conservatives… “epistemic closure.” I’m not sure it doesn’t apply to Ames and Carr. Their minds are made up. and, if they have to distort the record – as with Emptywheel – or fabricate the “truth” to maintain it, it’s all to the good. Their confirmation bias is set in reinforced concrete.
No. You should not have had to write this. I’m not at all sure you should have written it. I’m not sure what you accomplish by writing it. But, you did write it well. Maybe I can convince myself that there are a few people who needed to see this, who needed the reassurance. Who needed someone to connect the dots for them. I take no pleasure in not being one of them.
Good comment with great points, THG.
And, dispiriting to see some, who I expected to know better, advance the demand for a response.
Totally agree, especially when it comes from folk who should be reading these kinds of articles with more critical eyes than those of us who are less schooled in the written arts. A careful parsing of the article, including a critical eyeballing of the links provided, would have shown anyone with a shred of honesty in their brains that all was not as represented.
It was a shoddy piece. And it is a shame that Glenn has to address this crap, but as others have noted, he always uses these opportunities to shine even so. And it was a lovely juxtaposition to see this kind of writing abutting the poor imitation that engendered it.
If I had billions I most certainly would have given money to protest groups in Syria 4 years ago. This would not change the fact that I understand well what the “opposition” there has morphed into, and that “western” concern most certainly has nothing to do with humanitarian issues. I’m grateful for whatever pitiful and symbolic support the assad admin has given to the Palestinians but that doesn’t change the fact that I recognize the brutality of the regime. And we could go on and on. I would send funds to Kurdish activists in Turkey while welcoming the Turkish gov’s responses to Israeli crimes.
I don’t really see what Pando’s complaining about here. Don’t see the point of the hysterics other than to demonstrate their personal vendetta.
In a September 15, 2011 press release, the Omidyar Network “announced today its intent to grant up to $3M to six leading organizations focused on advancing government transparency and accountability” including “Centre UA (Ukraine)”. The Network then devoted an entire page of its website (entitled “New Citizen (Centre UA)”) to touting the investment and explaining its rationale and purpose (the group, claims the Network, “seeks to enable citizen participation in national and regional politics by amplifying the voices of Ukrainian citizens and promoting open and accountable government”).
————–
It’s time people got over themselves and acknowledged that anyone is allowed to start a business. Kudos to someone that wealthy who chooses to invest in a project that has global outreach and shores up democracy.
On some very basic level this is about good old-fashioned prejudice. If Pierre Omidyar’s, name was Jim Jones and he was a Baptist from Indiana he’d get a free pass.
Judge him on his works, and everyone who knows him well and his own academic and business records speak resoundingly well of him. What a shame that so many people allow themselves to be so shamelessly manipulated.
Funny, I feel so strongly that peoples worldwide all have the inalienable right to self-determination despite the fact it is rarely recognized or respected; that idea of the hyper-wealthy buying coups and revolutions is so repulsive to me I just had to mention it to you. Democracy cannot be shored up if its root has not taken hold in soil enriched by respect for self-determination.
Good intentions are simply not enough. It is naive to think they are, and Omidyar is that, imo. (At least he’s not like others – cynically in it for money and power.) Far too often good intentions pave the over-worn road to hell.
the road to hell? really, that’s what you wrap it up with? you mean the hell that we WISH the smashers and grabbers end up in for driving while malicious/oblivious/self-obsessed? there’s a difference between hope and wishful thinking, actually.
Oh, Glenn. How do you find the time and energy to so quickly and thoroughly dispense with the latest nonsense from these fools? Thanks so much for all that you do and have been doing for so many years now. May we all follow your excellent example and do whatever we can to make this woeful world a better place for all.
Mark Ames has a particular talent for avoiding the essential meaning of the events he writes about. He, instead, wanders about on the outer periphery of sense finding only details he injects with salaciousness and then expands upon them as if they reflect the true meaning.
For him this may indeed be the case, as the man appears to be a profligate fool. I think unacknowledged, uncontrolled envy can do that to a person.
His years-long fixation is all motivated by extremely petty personal hurt from this.
Here’s what he used to say before that happened: “Glenn Greenwald, whom we’ve followed fairly regularly over the past couple of years and whom we both respect.”
I could have easily ignored this, but there were enough people taking it seriously, but more so, I wanted to make a clear statement in general about our journalistic independence and its relationship to Pierre’s various activities and views (ie none), so this was a good opportunity to do it.
His years-long fixation is all motivated by extremely petty personal hurt from this.
I had forgotten about that piece. Ames and Levine didn’t just step in it, they rolled in it with that one. Must suck when your editor and publisher has to publically wear a hair shirt on your behalf:
vandan Heuvel was wrong though about the “rare occasion” bit wrt Ames and Co. Ames started the dreckslinging and Levine escalated it with this bit of twatter embellishment,
all without offering a shred of proof. Isn’t there a legal term that applies to people who produce outright lies about others? ‘Libel’? Or maybe it’s ‘defamation’ or ‘slander’…whatever. They should take more care in assembling their ‘facts’ in future posts.
Precisely the reason you must respond immediately and effectively to such toxic journalism as Ames’ is. I know that if you turn the other cheek to such accusations they take on lives of their own based on the fact you did not deny them. I applaud your openly dealing with such lies immediately as is characteristic of you. It keeps the record clear and gives us another glimpse into the depth of your integrity. Kudos.
I can only think that journalistic independence is so foreign a notion to Mark Ames
that he can’t even comprehend it exists. You, on the other hand, have demonstrated thus far that it does and that it is a very precious and powerful thing.
~
By the way, there was a Mark Ames piece I found illuminating – on Otis Pike. In case you are not familiar with Otis Pike I thought you might find the man of great interest considering he was an early opponent of the NSA.
http://pando.com/2014/02/04/the-first-congressman-to-battle-the-nsa-is-dead-no-one-noticed-no-one-cares/
http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/01/31/the-extraordinary-otis-pike/
Aye, aye! It was that accursed Greenwald that razed me; made a poor pegging lubber of me for ever and a day!… I’ll chase him round Good Hope, and round the Horn, and round the Norway Maelstrom, and round perdition’s flames before I give him up. And this is what ye have shipped for, men! to chase that Greenwald on both sides of land, and over all sides of earth …
omg please don’t waste your time defending yourself against drivel that a) merits no response and b) most people likely weren’t aware of until you chose to devote time and prominence to it.
It’s sometimes hard to distinguish between drivel that merits a response and drivel which does not. And even when it does not, there is still an opportunity to make several worthwhile points, as this article demonstrates.
So it’s reasonable to give the drivelers the benefit of the doubt.
I agree. The first I heard of it was from Glenn’s Twitter page, and I could care less. A non-issue.
nw, We know it’s drivel, but the pattern is clear…with each passing day, Snowden’s revelations take on more gravity. The thread on the Guardian about tapping photos from computer cameras went over 3,000 posts in a day. (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/27/gchq-nsa-webcam-images-internet-yahoo)
There is a clear pattern that when Glenn’s work hits a nerve, the forces who feel threatened hit back. Left unchallenged, this kind of narrative takes hold. In fact, I hope that Glenn thinks about having this piece published on the Guardian so that a wider audience is reached.
We know from long past and recent history that just because it’s a lie (WMD) doesn’t mean it doesn’t become a shaping force. He’s right to address it fast and hard.
Yes Mornings Minion you are right about the pattern, and this is a monster which we are all protesting against. Its going to take time and determination to bring about reform. Each revelation will see counter attacks, and the unexpected should be expected. You are also right to bring up the Weapons of Mass Destruction lie, which of course was the excuse that George W Bush, and Tony Blair used to justify an illegitimate war against Iraq. There is some good information on the cost of that war in terms of lives of US military personnel and Iraqis in the site which I have provided a link to below. This site also has a counter showing how quickly dollars are being spent on the war in Afghanistan and Iraq.
http://prosecutegeorgebush.com/
The important point is that those dollars are going to someone who is profiting from those wars.
Who financed Obama’s career in Chicago? The Crown and Pritzker families, who own stock in the military-industrial complex. That tells one all one needs to know about Obama’s foreign policy priorities, i.e., support Israel, attack Syria, attack Lebanon, attack Iran – all of which is in the cards.
This is an important article. In the course of dissecting a smear, Glenn has produced a fine piece of work on journalism and how to support it. With the most powerful factions in the world controlling the major media it is even more important to have journalism like this.
Here is a point that is off topic but important. The CO2 levels in the atmosphere are the highest for the last 800,000 years. The environment will be the most important issue of the earth and the climate denial by the oligarchs will end with a crash. I just hope that the crash doesn’t take humanity with it. Or cynically, can you stop anyone who is hell bent to commit suicide?
I also admire the way he allowed this to become a venue for addressing fundamental issues of journalism. An article rich with links and material on many ancillary but important points…his signature style.
Drivel has a bad habit of taking on the cloak of reality. It must be stopped in its tracks before it gains currency. Glenn is expert at stopping BS such as Mark Ames substitutes for rational journalism.
“Of the many problems that poses, none is more serious than the fact that Omidyar now has the only two people with exclusive access to the complete Snowden NSA cache, Glenn Greenwald and Laura Poitras. Somehow, the same billionaire who co-financed the “coup” in Ukraine with USAID, also has exclusive access to the NSA secrets—and very few in the independent media dare voice a skeptical word about it. [emphasis added]”
What an astonishing claim and it sounds more like a crack pot conspiracy theory to me!
They will be suggesting next that Omidyar is financing the recent political unrest in Venezuela or that he is to blame for spying on Yahoo users.
Strange how that’s another country with a long history, and recent history of US Diplomats getting expelled ?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/news/video-1083911/Venezuela-expels-U-S-diplomats-spurring-protests.html
http://rt.com/news/maduro-expels-us-diblomats-586/
Looks like its going to get more bumpy now when they start throwing mud so lets roll up the sleeves and let the games commence !
So much for your political aspirations, if you had any.
Personally, I change my views periodically, to see things from a different perspective. But possibly this is because my views are generally incorrect – so changing them doesn’t constitute an enormous sacrifice. Usually, I do this for my own benefit. But I admire those who are selfless enough to change their views for somebody else’s benefit.
common ‘tater.
it’s like common spectator, but works just as good without the “spec” part.
gj
There are Spec ‘Taters, Anno ‘Taters, and Agit ‘Taters. Me, I’m just a Common ‘Tater.
I assume you and Omidyar and FirstLook will be getting a lot of these kinds of attacks. It’s what they do in their attempts to besmirch and damage your credibility. It sucks that you have to put time into defense but this article reveals aspects about Pando that I wasn’t aware of. When they strike at you, strike back harder. Show your attackers for who they are.
Glenn,
Take the rest of the weekend off. You deserve it.
Well Good morning Glenn Greenwald, I wasn’t expecting that at 8:26 a.m. on a Saturday but what an informative piece. I’m sure I’ll be citing it in the near future and many times over. Thanks for your insight.
First Look needs to poach Sirota and any other quality journalists from Pando, and soon. A total clown and loser like Paul Carr shouldn’t have such writers on staff.
Mark Ames uses an indeterminate amount of methamphetamine, writes favorably about JFK assassination conspiracy theories, and sincerely thought that his best friend and business partner Matt Taibbi was trying to have him murdered by the Russian mob. The man is a paranoiac tweaker.
You’re, like, the Zorro of journalists. You slice and dice them in a flash.
The point about funding, though. I have no doubt about your ethics, or those of your colleagues, Poitras, Scahill, Taibbi, now or later, and that was my first thought when I read the twitter stuff. But as you’ve said, corruption is a subtle thing, and people succumb without realizing it, or after they’re so invested it seems – and maybe is – the only rational thing to do. So it’s unfortunate that funding has to come from rich individuals. What if Pierre suddenly pulled out? Could he do that?
What if Pierre suddenly pulled out? Could he do that?
Journalistus interruptus? I suppose it could happen in the sense that anything can happen, but I would think it highly unlikely if you look at Omidyar’s track record with the many projects he’s sponsored in the past. I mean, he’s been funding upheaval in Ukraine since September of 2011 [/snark] so I’m guessing he’ll give Greenwald et. al. at least as long to disrupt things from First Look/The Intercept, don’t you think? ;-}
“I have equal scorn for those who feign opposition to Russian interference in the sovereignty of other countries while continuing to support all sorts of U.S. interference of exactly that sort.”
Nailed it.
#correction
You Rock Glenn,keep up the great work that You do !!
That would be the one about Omidyar having “exclusive access to NSA secrets” — Same Pando author(s) made exact same accusation in November. You specifically called them out on that fabrication back then. Are these Pando writers pathological liars, or just slow learners with short term memory problems?
You will probably be accused of lying about when you found about this, because they all know that no one could possibly write so well so quickly.
I’m old enough to remember when Democratic partisans mocked Mitt Romney for saying Russia was America’s “number one geopolitical enemy.” But that was before the vile treachery of Comrade Snowden and Comrade Greenwald opened everyone’s eyes.
“The bear needs water.” One of the weird hints my dad liked to drop when he thought he was being cryptic about SALT shakers.
The Bear wants warm water as usual, and is using the present upheaval to take back Crimea, though I doubt this is wholly a bad thing. Russian ethnics dominate in Crimea and the province would have been a locus of trouble for a democratic Ukraine if they’d been able to hold onto it.
The bigger concern is if Putin uses Crimea as a springboard into the eastern half of Ukraine proper. He may try to push into the ethnically mixed parts of Ukraine if he succeeds too readily in Crimea, using the same concern troll bullshit he has applied to the Crimean invasion. Russians have a ~300 year history of doing so, and he would personally benefit from a rush of Russkie-jingoist fist pumping ’round about know.
Greenwald has sold out for $250 million from the outfit which cut off Wilileaks and now is in bed supporting a fascist coup in Ukraine. Make no mistake,that is what it is. I will make a prediction here. There will be no more releases of NSA documents which seriously upset the Empire. That deal has been done. Everything that comes out from now on will be fluf and old stuff everyone knows anyway.
What an ignorant statement. You think you are dealing with an MSNBC host or something? Pay attention. We look forward to your apology when your prediction fails to come to pass, although I won’t hold my breath waiting for it.
the trick is, race_to_the_bottom can frame any future expose to be in line with the needlessly and worthlessly cynical prediction – after all, plenty of content-free twits are already grossly enamored of their “everybody knew this stuff already” narrative…
I agree with one modification. We will see no documents, nor hear any substantial journalism from Glenn Greenwald, concerning USA subversion in Ukraine. He’ll be permitted to leak and write about almost anything. But not that.
that’s handy, since as he pointed out in the first place, he never wrote about Ukraine back in the supposedly-massively-different days of a supposedly-massively-different level of independence, either. perhaps the thought excites you, but it is a prediction genuinely free of substance and will not actually confirm anything whatsoever if it ‘comes to pass’…
well done . . .