(updated below)
Several members of the august “US Journalists Against Transparency” club are outraged by revelations in yesterday’s New York Times (jointly published by der Spiegel) that the NSA has been hacking the products of the Chinese tech company Huawei as well as Huawei itself at exactly the same time (and in exactly the same way) as the US Government has been claiming the Chinese government hacks. Echoing the script of national security state officials, these journalists argue that these revelations are unjustified, even treasonous, because this is the type of spying the NSA should be doing, and disclosure serves no public interest while harming American national security, etc. etc.
True to form, however, these beacons of courage refuse to malign the parties that actually made the choice to publish these revelations – namely, the reporters and editors of the New York Times – and instead use it to advance their relentless attack on Edward Snowden. To these journalists, there are few worse sins than “stealing” the secrets of the US government and leaking them to the press (just as was true in the WikiLeaks case, one must congratulate the US Government on its outstanding propaganda feat of getting its journalists to lead the war on those who bring transparency to the nation’s most powerful factions). But beyond the abject spectacle of anti-transparency journalists, these claims are often based on factually false assumptions about how these stories are reported, making it worthwhile once again to underscore some of the key facts governing this process:
(1) Edward Snowden has not leaked a single document to any journalist since he left Hong Kong in June: 9 months ago. Back then, he provided a set of documents to several journalists and asked that we make careful judgments about what should and should not be published based on several criteria. He has played no role since then in deciding which documents are or are not reported. Those decisions are made entirely by media outlets that are in possession of those documents. Thus, calling a new NSA story “Snowden’s latest leak” or asking “why would Snowden decide to publish this now?” – as though he’s doling out documents one by one or deciding which documents should be published – is misleading in the extreme: those decisions are made exclusively by the journalists and editors of those news outlets.
(2) Publication of an NSA story constitutes an editorial judgment by the media outlet that the information should be public. By publishing yesterday’s Huawei story, the NYT obviously made the editorial judgment that these revelations are both newsworthy and in the public interest, should be disclosed, and will not unduly harm “American national security.” For reasons I explain below, I agree with that choice. But if you disagree – if you want to argue that this (or any other) NSA story is reckless, dangerous, treasonous or whatever – then have the courage to take it up with the people who reached the opposite conclusion: in this case, the editors and reporters of the NYT (indeed, as former DOJ official Jack Goldsmith observed, the NYT‘s Huawei story was “based on leaks other than the Snowden documents”). In most other cases where critics claim reckless disclosures, the decision to publish was made by the Washington Post. The judgment to which you’re objecting – that this information should be made public – was one made by those newspapers, not by Edward Snowden.
(3) Snowden has made repeatedly clear that he did not want all of the documents he provided to be published. When Snowden furnished documents to the journalists with whom he chose to work (which, just by the way, expressly did not include the NYT), he made clear that he did not believe all of those materials should be published. Obviously, if he wanted all of those documents published, he could have and would have just uploaded them to the internet himself; he wouldn’t have needed to work with journalists.
As he has said repeatedly, he wanted journalists – not himself – to make these decisions based on what is in the public interest and what can be disclosed without subjecting innocent people to harm. He was adamant that not all of the documents he provided were appropriate for publication, and was especially clear (at least to me) that certain categories of documents not be published (which is why those who demand that all documents be released are arguing, even though they won’t acknowledge it, that we should violate our agreement with our source, disregard Snowden’s conditions for furnishing the documents, and subject him to a wide range of risks he did not want to take). See here for just a few of the examples where Snowden’s wishes in this regard are made clear.
Critics like to pretend that this is some bizarre or unusual arrangement (why would he provide documents to journalists that he didn’t think should be published?) In fact, this happens all the time: sources come to journalists and say “this set of information I’m giving you is for publication, while this information is only for background use and this other information should stay off the record.” Many of the documents Snowden provided were necessary for background, context and understanding, but not ones he thought should be published (because they could endanger or malign innocent people, or create risks for those involved in the disclosures, or be used to demonize the revelations). Other documents involved close calls that he believed journalists were better suited to evaluate than himself.
He’s made repeatedly clear since then that he did not want all documents published, but rather wanted a case-by-case assessment made of each, with the ultimate decision to publish resting with journalists, not himself. Here’s how his legal representative, the ACLU’s Ben Wizner, recently described Snowden’s instructions to journalists:
You know, the number of documents that Edward Snowden has made available to the public is zero. What he did is give information to journalists, with the instruction that they and their editors, in consultation, where necessary, with government officials, decide what was in the public interest to publish, and to withhold information that would be harmful to publish. He wanted to create a protocol that would correct for his own biases. He was someone who had spent the last almost ten years in the intelligence community. He didn’t think that his own judgments — and he has very strong judgments about what should or should not be public — were adequate to this moment and wanted to make sure that the institutions that had the experience in doing this — and these are our newspapers, who have long experience competing with the government over access and control of secret information — that that be the way that the information got published. . . .
He didn’t want and didn’t think that he should have the responsibility to decide which of these documents should be public. He wanted to appeal to the traditions, the institutions, the expertise of the media in helping to make those important judgments. That’s what we want whistleblowers to do. We don’t want them to unilaterally substitute their judgment for everybody else’s. We want them to go through these institutions that funnel and that channel that and have longer experience in making these kinds of decisions.
As Time noted in a lengthy profile when naming him Person of the Year runner-up: “Snowden does not defend every story that has been written, but he says he tried to design his actions to ensure that he was not the ultimate arbiter of what should and should not become public. ‘There have of course been some stories where my calculation of what is not public interest differs from that of reporters, but it is for this precise reason that publication decisions were entrusted to journalists and their editors,’ he told Time.”
Now, obviously, anyone is free to agree or disagree with Snowden’s framework for how these materials be handled and reported. I personally think the process of government consultation is often used to suppress newsworthy information, though for the NSA stories I’ve worked on, government arguments to suppress information have been rejected in at least 99% of the cases; I also think non-traditional outlets such as WikiLeaks have done a superior job in many cases with reporting classified documents than government-loyal traditional outlets.
But what you shouldn’t feel free to do is ignore that this is the framework on which Snowden insisted. You shouldn’t demand that journalists violate their agreements with him (by publishing all the documents) unless you are willing to admit that this is what you’re advocating. And you definitely shouldn’t pretend that it’s Snowden, rather than these media outlets, who are making the choices about what gets published in order to demonize him for the latest disclosures you dislike while cowardly refusing to criticize the media outlets that actually made the choice to publish them.
If you want to argue that Snowden bears some responsibility as the leaker, go ahead. But don’t mislead people about who made the choice that this information ought to be published. It was the New York Times – not Snowden – that concluded that the public should know about the NSA’s hacking of Huawei, just as it was the Washington Post and not Snowden who decided to publish virtually all of the stories about which Fred Kaplan complained.
(4) The jingoistic view of what is “newsworthy” is baseless and warped. Somewhere along the way, this idea arose that the only “legitimate” disclosures involve ones showing violations of the rights of American citizens. Anything else, this reasoning holds, is invalid, and because Snowden leaked documents that go beyond the violation of Americans’ rights, he is not a legitimate whistleblower.
Who created the uber-nationalistic standard that the only valid disclosures are ones involving the rights of Americans? Are we are all supposed to regard non-Americans as irrelevant? Is the NSA’s bulk, suspicionless surveillance of the private communications of hundreds of millions of human beings inherently proper simply because its victims aren’t American citizens? Even more extreme: are American journalists (and whistleblowers like Snowden) supposed to keep the public ignorant of anything and everything the US Government does to people provided those people aren’t blessed with American citizenship? Do you condemn whoever leaked the existence of top secret CIA black sites to Dana Priest on the ground that it didn’t involve violations of the rights of Americans? It makes sense that US government officials view the world this way: their function is to advance the self-perceived interests of the US government, but that’s not the role of actual journalists or whistleblowers.
The public interest from the Huawei story is obvious. It demonstrates that the NSA has been doing exactly that which the US Government has spent years vocally complaining is being done by China. While the US has been telling the world that the Chinese government is spying on them through backdoors in Huawei products, it’s actually the NSA that has been doing that. It also yet again gives the lie to the claim that the NSA does not engage in economic espionage.
It shows massive deceit and hypocrisy by US officials: with their own citizens and to the world. DOJ official Jack Goldsmith, often a government and NSA defender, understood this point perfectly, writing yesterday that “The Huawei revelations are devastating rebuttals to hypocritical U.S. complaints about Chinese penetration of U.S. networks, and also make USG protestations about not stealing intellectual property to help U.S. firms’ competitiveness seem like the self-serving hairsplitting that it is.”
If you’re a US government official, or a devoted loyalist to the US government, then it makes sense that you’d be angry that has been revealed. Political officials always want their deceit to be concealed rather than exposed, while jingoistic government loyalists (even when they call themselves “journalists”) want the same thing. But if you’re an actual journalist, or a whistleblower with a conscience, or a citizen who would rather know the truth than be misled by your own government, then this is an easy call. Either way, though, the call in this case – to inform rather than suppress – was made by the reporters and editors of the media outlets which chose to publish this story, so anyone who is angry about it should direct their anger to them.
UPDATE: Brookings’ Ben Wittes responds to all of this at Lawfare by, first, agreeing with the main point that those who object to particular NSA stories should direct those criticisms to the newspapers which decide to publish them. But he disagrees that NSA surveillance of foreigners is newsworthy. He argues that “the United States—like all countries that apply law to espionage at all—treats spying domestically and on its own nationals as legally different from spying abroad” and that such disclosures are driven by “the press’s eagerness to expose lawful conduct deemed in the national interest by the democratically elected representatives of the people.”
But there is a huge difference between spying on what are generally regarded to be legitimate foreign targets (political and military officials of adversary governments) and collecting the private communications of entire populations en masse. It’s untenable to claim that bulk surveillance has been democratically ratified given that almost all Americans, even most members of Congress, were completely unaware that any of this was happening until we reported it. One can’t reasonably claim that a government program which almost nobody knew about has been democratically approved.
More to the point: mere legality is insufficient to shield a program from justifiable transparency; conversely, exposure of illegality is not the only form of valid reporting. Take the classic whistleblowing case of the Pentagon Papers: those documents really did not reveal illegality as much as they revealed government deceit, systematic lying to the American people about the Vietnam War. The fact that such official lying may have been legal hardly means that it should have remained concealed.
The fact is that American law imposes almost no restrictions on what the US Government is permitted to do to non-Americans, but that does not mean that all such conduct should be off-limits from media reporting just because it has been legalized. Drone strikes that kill innocent people are arguably legal because Congress has approved them, and are often concealed from the public through an abuse of secrecy rules: does that mean journalists should refrain from reporting them? After all, such reporting “exposes [arguably] lawful conduct deemed in the national interest by the democratically elected representatives of the people.”
Having the US government subject the entire world to a system of suspicionless collect-it-all surveillance goes far beyond what was known or expected or approved; it goes far beyond what is common. It has profound implications for all sorts of critical values. The fact that American law does not prohibit it does not remotely mean that citizens should be kept ignorant that it is happening. Independently, the notion that the US Government should be permitted by journalists to deceive its citizenry – by, for instance, pretending that it is China rather than itself engaging in this form of industrial espionage – simply because such deceit is “legal” is entirely noxious to the most basic tenets of what journalism should be.


“It’s untenable to claim that bulk surveillance has been democratically ratified”
It is doubly untenable because it hasn’t been primarily responsible for any busts to date and can therefore be justified only on some other grounds the government doesn’t cop to.
Which makes it triply untenable. And triply dangerous.
This info is helpful, especially after Snowden’s appearance at SXSW.
AS a Canadian and given that the border between the U.S. and Canada is nothing but a glorified checkpoint for law enforcement I’ve been rather disgusted with some of the debate I’ve heard in America regarding what should and shouldn’t cause alarm to those concerned about their rights.
At times it sounds like even the most ardent of free speech and privacy activists are saying that all things are fine so long as the U.S. doesn’t commit these crimes against American citizens. As a Canadian where does that leave me? The NSA is allowed to spy on me? If I were to start a blog condemning American eavesdropping or to fight against the keystone pipeline does that mean the NSA is free to spy on me and share information with the Canadian government. Perhaps try to sabotage my life without my even knowing the real source of my troubles? Should I be subject to this kind of attack just because I live across the border in a country that shares everything with the U.S. except the American constitution?
Also, I find it very difficult to believe that a news organization (like for instance CNN) would ever naturally end up with such an imbalanced collection of employees who just so happen to agree with the government in any situation involving international matters.
It’s become clear to me over the last couple years that reporters and pundits like Erin Burnet, jeffrey toobin and Christiane Amanpour and many others are have an agenda. Someone like Christiane Amanpour no doubt works for the CIA in a very literal way. The rest I’m assuming owe their jobs and their continued success to their blind support America in any matter the NSA, CIA or Pentagon thinks important. They basically do for the government what FOX news did during the 2008 presidential campaign. Wait until the seeds propaganda are planted somewhere and then make them grow.
Erin Burnet spent most of her interview with Assange blasting him with questions about sexual allegations in Sweden and the irony of hiding in the Ecuadorean embassy when they’re currently being criticized for a crackdown on press freedoms. Both subjects being carefully crafted, propagandized attack responses by the American government which no real people care one bit about (other then the TMZ-like interest in the Swedish nonsense).
I know longer believe the mainstream press in America should even be referred to as news organizations or outlets. They keep accusing RT of being some sort of anti-American propaganda machine for the Kremlin. What they fail to realize is the sad fact that all RT has to do is tell the truth and that in itself is doing so much damage it could be perceived as “anti-American”. CNN has basically made RT the moral voice of reason by comparison!
American MSM is the PR department for the corporate/military/industrial nexus. In other words…propaganda. So despite the illusions to the contrary….the talking heads are just the cheerleaders
for the latest exercise in the empire’s global death march…oh sorry… humanitarian intervention.
http://www.mediaroots.org/rts-abby-martin-goes-off-on-corporate-media-to-piers-morgan/
Snowden leaked all the documents to our (Russian) government((((((((( We want to know more about Truecrypt backdoor!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I’d go a bit further, Glenn: even if it were the case that all nations surveill all of humanity, that ubiquity wouldn’t make the act wise, moral or any other kind of good simply by virtue of the fact of its ubiquity.
I think it’s pretty rad how the info is being released.. old schooly.. it’s like a movie or something.. maybe we are in a movie.. or the matrix.
Dude!
LOL seriously that sounded like something out of the Sixties…. or like Keanu.
So you are telling me it’s in the hands of a British newspaper company? British people are choosing what is right for America and what is not?
Fucking release it all…
@Titonwan
Again with your nonsense. Jealous much?
Yes, and all of Zia Zia Gabor’s “critics” were jealous of her wealth and status as well. And the 9/11 terrorists were jealous of American freedoms.
“Attacking someone for prospering is kinda sick.”
Apparently your reading comprehension has been tasked beyond its limits already, so I will not further task your patience with a reiteration of my position. Don’t worry though, cheerleaders are not expected to fathom the complexities of that which they root for. Their job is to simply heap unqualified praise on the home team: “My leader, my leader, right or wrong my leader!”
Yes, of course I’m a cheerleader. I’ve been reading ol Grimm for ages now. He’s consistent. He doesn’t vary between political parties. He explains the law and how it relates to us.
You smack of party loyalty more than anything.
Look forward to destroying your arguments. Or, maybe Glenn will.
“You smack of party loyalty more than anything.”
Guilty as charged. I do like to party :)
“Look forward to destroying your arguments.”
One can only hope. I look forward to the day that you actually engage in reasoned debate absent your usual vulgar acrimony. In fact, such an occasion will provide adequate reason for party observances. ( I harbor hope for anyone who doesn’t buy into the official narrative surrounding the attacks of 911…)
You all will have to scroll down the nest of this conversation if you’d care the see the rest of it. End result is that Wilhelmina totally lost the debate because he or she couldn’t take “Yes, I have the goods — with links,” for an answer. But he or she is grinding on anyway for reasons that I honestly can’t fathom.
Yes, Indeed! Please review the exchange between Kitt and I and determine for yourself where the truth actually resides. See if Kitt provided substantiation for the claim that some of the Snowden documents “could not be published because they are basically an instruction manual for other surveillance entities in other countries to grow their surveillance practices.” More importantly, see how the premise itself does not stand up to reason. And lastly, make note of the fact that exchanges of opinion initiated by Kitt are not conducted for truth sake; rather, they are almost always a contest wherein he/she hopes to derive a fleeting sense of ego gratification at the expense of her opposition. How pathetic.
You lost the debate, clear and simple. In fact, I didn’t even know it was a debate until you started crying about what I’d posted. I thought you just wanted the factual information that I knew about — and eventually provided with links. You’re absurdly repeating my</strong two words, "instruction Manuel" as if that is what the discussion was about. You're embarrassing yourself. If you'd like to have any credibility in your future discussions, this shit you're hanging with ain't gonna get it done.
Yawn…
Please name some (or all) of the “U.S. Journalists Against Transparency.” Thanks.
Pretty much everyone on the Wall Street Journal editorial board. The LA Times and Chicago Tribune editorial boards run a close second.
Max Fisher, Jen Rubin, Marc Thiessen, Michael Gerson, David Frum.
Charles Krauthammer, Bill O’Reilly, Bill Kristol
Lawrence O’Donnell, Chris Matthews, Mika Brezinski, Joe Scarborough
There’s plenty more, but at least these folks have an ethos that is more developed than “read the teleprompter and get laid.”
Try every celebrity network tv anchor, just too many to list.
I nominate Jeffrey Toobin of CNN.
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New London Ct. Probate Judge Matthew H. Green lied and committed blatant fraud in a decision not to admit a will without any testimony to support his findings. He appointed an administrator who ignored the estate expenses and stole over 30 thousand dollars from the estate with help of the court. His name is Garon Camassar. Both should be serving time instead they have impunity
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Elderly Abuse Video.
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“But there is a huge difference between spying on what are generally regarded to be legitimate foreign targets (political and military officials of adversary governments) and collecting the private communications of entire populations en masse.”
If this is the case (bulk record), adiós internet, adiós freedom. And welcome to paper and ballpoint pen.
But if you’re an actual journalist, or a whistleblower with a conscience, or a citizen who would rather know the truth than be misled by your own government, then this is an easy call
I have no doubt Glenn Greenwald has -for a long time- carried the spirit of Dr. Erich Frommm when Fromm said
“Conscience, by its very nature is nonconforming; it must be able to say no, when everybody else says yes; in order to say this “no” it must be certain in the rightness of the judgment on which the no is based. To the degree to which a person conforms he cannot hear the voice of his conscience, much less act upon it. Conscience exists only when man experiences himself as man, not as a thing, as a commodity”
Fromm, Erich “The Sane Society” (p. 173).
The quality of this thread just shot up. Thank you.
Thank you George C for sharing this thought provoking statement by Dr. Erich Frommm.
I need to check whether “The Sane Society” is available as a Kindle edition. I like the way he explains and amplifies “conscience”. I have seen no better.
Kindle edition is $9.99. Amazon review is 4.8 (of 5). 4.8 is the highest rating of any book that I have ordered from Amazon.
Obama to Call for End to N.S.A.’s Bulk Data Collection
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/25/us/obama-to-seek-nsa-curb-on-call-data.html?_r=1
Yeah, right. Show me the money, honey.
Thanks, Edward. We wouldn’t be having this conversation without your extraordinary bravery. That goes to Grimm et al, too.
Here’s how having a comment feature can derail and destroy the credibility of a honest reporting entity. Too many wack-jobs commenting for the amount of revealed substance, reducing the publication to a bunch or red scare artists on steroids. Fix it, take the comment system out and focus on articles.
Yes, Sir!
Looks like we’ve been busted, keller. Might as well fold up and move on to the next village. Turn the lights out when you leave, Mr. Osbourne.
@Cary Osbourne … are you KIDDING??? WTFevah! Not only have I learned more about what my “trusted” government was doing behind my back – the fact that I’ve been able to read and participate directly in a dialogue with other observers has been the best education I could ever ask for. At times my perceptions and belief system has proven me dead wrong … at times I found myself among people whose opinions I share validate my own and “I am not alone”. Why don’t you do yourself a favor and just ignore the comments if it bothers you so much – I for one still have a lot to learn and I won’t let my own ignorance go unchallenged – ever!
BTW – HI @Titonwan! … you’re one of my “elders” in this tribe. Even though I’ve been a lurker lately (busy life) I always keep my eyes peeled for you! Be well…
You’re very kind. Now we’re on a watch list for expressing friendship.
Fuck em. Be well, compadre.
And what (other than seeing yourself type drivel) do you accomplish by commenting on anything? Sometimes the audience qualifies the publication. I might share many of the expressed opinions or disagree with them, but what, other than hates-peech and idiocy comes from these comments? Can you show me 5 instances where a comment on an article has ever changed anything? People trying to discredit the source, others sticking their heads up every ass they can find… what’s it good for? Fact: The comments are a nuisance to the publication, which is nothing but added opinion. ;o)
@Cary Osbourne
You know, for someone that demands no comment section, you find yourself in one. STFU
@Titonwan “@Cary Osbourne
You know, for someone that demands no comment section, you find yourself in one. STFU”
@Cary Osbourn … STFU
@Titonwan “Now we’re on a watch list for expressing friendship. Fuck em.”
Dear NSA – Fuck it! Have a glorious and fucked up day :-D
@Cary Osbourne … IN CASE you mistake my message – my name is Ellie Hagans … I’m hung like a horse and you can SUCK IT HARD. No back to shutting the fuck up!
Sorry I lost my temper … I stand behind the meaning of my message – but perhaps, in hindsight, I should have been more diplomatic … or just not fed the troll and walked away … or maybe I should have just added a “please” and “thank you” to my rant. I got riled up and snapped. Sorry for that. Please be quiet. And go away. Forever. :-) Have a nice day!
It’s the opposite of what you said. Comments amplify, explicate and provide valuable feedback. Is there ‘noise’? Well of course.
The NSA guys aren’t bad – mostly new trainees and very polite. I agree the FSB tend to be a bit rude and dismissive of the other commenters. The GCHQ are are addicted to irony – and they are slightly arrogant. The MSS tend to be rather quiet – it’s very hard to engage them in a discussion.
In other words, all the same gang you run into everywhere else on the internet – so I don’t know why you have a problem with this site in particular.
Hey there @Tater… how did you get your avatar to show?
gravitar
Thanks Spuddy!
from SECRETS by Daniel Ellsberg (page 43):
“The reality unknown to the public and to most members of Congress and the press is that secrets that would be of the greatest import to many of them can be kept from them reliably for decades by the executive branch, even though they are known to thousands of insiders.”
Which begs the question on what really happened on Sept 11. My bad, we got a brand new tower to forget or remember or shit, I just love construction projects on Discovery Channel.
But if you question too deep, it becomes a problem. Ask London Lad about that.
It is obvious to those experts that have examined the factual evidence.
A forced exposure of those facts would clear up several problems Internationally.
This from today: http://www.thedailysheeple.com/911-museum-set-to-open-at-ground-zero-will-educate-future-generations_032014
I thought Melissa Melton did an excellent summary.
“Which begs the question on what really happened on Sept 11. ” ??? I think it’s more important what happened the days BEFORE 9/11 …
Case in point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G43zl4fzDQg
If anyone out there hasn’t heard of Susan Lindhauer – please watch the above link on youtube. She has an amazing story as a whistleblower … she is a hero! But is anyone listening???
I watched the video of her talk. I found her story very believable. I want to learn more about her, her accusers, and the 4 years she was a prisoner at a military base. She has a book “Extreme Prejudice” that I will add to my reading list.
@Jim Moore … I’ve seen just about every video that youtube has on her (just search her name and you’ll see many). It’s a fascinating story. I’m sure you already know this … Rumsfeld admitting on 9/10/01 that the Pentagon was missing $2.3 Trillion – he called it a matter of “life and death.”
I’m generally not a conspiracy theorist – but there are so many things that don’t add up with the whole Bush/Cheney era that I am a “where there’s smoke there’s fire” person regarding 9/11.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xU4GdHLUHwU
What pisses me off about any and all revelations about government, whether it’s the NSA or a 9/11 whistleblower exposing many government agents, is that nobody on the government payroll gets prosecuted for their crimes against the people of this country. EVER!! Most of the time they don’t even get demoted, and many times they get PROMOTED so they have a higher position from which they can do even more damage later on! Sure wish there was something we could do about that…
P.S. I’ve watched some of Susan Lindhauer’s Youtube videos. They really are an interesting watch. Just by the way she talks (very down-to-earth), I tend to believe what she says is true.
Excellent topic that…..
One which should be contemplated and openly debated.
Is the Executive Branch holding too much power in it’s present structure?
If so what are the alternatives to a one person monopoly of power?
Or….are the two preceding questions mute when considering that ultimate international control is financial?
All roads lead to the Bank of International Settlements.
As someone who spends hours each day reading and commenting, I realized that I needed a primer to help me keep track of who says what. Here is Part 1 of my Primer:
1) Albert Meyer claims he posts comments but many never appear. He also provides links to Paul Carr’s articles on Pando.com in which Paul accuses Omidyar, FirstLook, The Intercept, and Glenn Greenwald of hiding the truth of their agreement, and Glenn as having been compromised as a Journalist.
2) Nate is extremely skeptical of most everything Glenn Greenwald says or writes, and wants Glenn to tell him how many Snowden documents each person has, plus how many in total.
3) Wilhelmina takes exception to Glenn Greenwald’s statements, most recently on his agreement with Snowden on which documents to publish and which to withhold.
4) Oboe on 54th Street is not fond of the articles written by the Intercept journalists. He often links to Pando.com articles that support his unhappiness.
Quite the summary, compadre! They actually think they can withstand the critical analysis of long time readers of Grimm Gleanworld®. Sorry. Stalwarts such as Coram ‘dont fuck with my military law shit’ Nobis and RRHeard ain’t takin’ this crap lyin’ down. You know- lawyers.
But they continue to bluster, either from genuine ignorance or feigned, I dunno. Lot’s o Grimm’s people have been learnin’ about this thanks to his thoughtful interpretation of vague laws that intrude on us incrementally. And for that- I’m thankful.
Kudos, Jim Moore. You are honored at the council fire.
RR Heard please come back!
As one who has been accused of having limited intelligence and questionable moral character, I can certainly profit from your insight.
Part 1 appears to concur with my own “Stupid and Lazy” evaluation and I am looking forward to Part 2 to assist with the clarification of my allegedly degenerate thought pattern.
Unfortunately, I have little time to dedicate to this monumental effort and really appreciate your efforts to condense raw data into a usable format. Thank you.
@Jim Moore
“As someone who spends hours each day reading and commenting, I realized that I needed a primer to help me keep track of who says what. Here is Part 1 of my Primer…”
At first glance, this is a seemingly fair assessment of those who have recently displayed a propensity for independent thought and critical analysis. Upon reflection however, it is little more than an attempt to openly identify and marginalize those who do not share your incessantly obsequious defense of the prevailing Intercept narrative, as can be more clearly seen in this companion piece:
“As someone who spends a good part of every day frequenting The Intercept, reading the articles, following the comments thread, reading/viewing most of the linked-to articles/videos, and posting my own opinions and analyses, I am growing more concerned with the number of articles being written by bloggers and their ilk (Pando.com, etc.) that, in my analysis, are “hatchet” jobs on everything Snowden, everything Greenwald, everything The Intercept, you get the picture. It appears that the NSA has recruited more hired guns to smear anyone writing articles based on the Snowden documents. The smears are ones we seen before and are just as outlandish. Hopefully, they will not gain any traction with their lies.”
There are few individuals who are more pitiful than those who openly conspire to preemptively quell dissenting opinion on a website that bills itself a producer of “fearless, adversarial journalism.” Apparently, it is only okay to harbor a dissenting opinion when it jives with your own. Otherwise, one runs the risk of being labeled as a NSA operative. So much for your integrity… and that of those who foolishly support such repugnance.
You got nothin’. Counter it if you can, fool. This slimy innuendo is typical of passive aggressive behavior.
What a punk assed thing to say. We listen. And then we decide if you’re full of shit. Case closed on yer meat.
There’s still time to wake yer ass up, you know. Just sayin’.
“We listen. And then we decide if you’re full of shit.”
Anytime that you are willing to actually engage me in a difference of opinion, and provide a reasoned account of your position, feel free to “wake my ass up.” Until then, I’ll count you among those who worship the opinions of others because they lack the requisite skill to form and convey their own conclusions.
Let’s begin by asking you a simple question: Do you believe that Jim Moore is being reasonable when he glibly suggests that all contrarian opinion should be treated as if it is as the work (hatchet job) of the NSA?
I don’t know if you’ve been reading the news, Wilhelmina, but we’ve had many articles about the US government engaging in exactly this sort of propaganda. Therefore, questioning whether anyone towing the NSA line is actually an NSA agent, is quite reasonable.
You shouldn’t be surprised that people are acting crazy. People tend to do that when they realize they’re under surveillance and subject to state propaganda efforts.
Thanks for the feedback Tom. I can appreciate the level of anxiety and distrust that accompanies the knowledge that one is being continuously surveilled. If the internalization of that knowledge manifests as unreasoned paranoia then the “masters of mankind” have won. Nothing better serves their interests than the reason averse effect of a fear-based perspective. Yes, “crazy” is an apt descriptor for those who unwittingly dance to the tune of the devil’s pipes and herald its devolutionary outcomes as divinely inspired.
I haven’t completely agreed with Wilhemina but he has been respectful and willing to listen to my opinions, and appears willing to engage in substantive discussion. He didn’t just insult me like some of he people around here. Furthermore, his words that you quoted above are 100% true and I don’t think could be stated in a more eloquent manner.
Your response on the other hand, Tito, is just being a jerk. Responses like the one you just made are the real problem around here. Have an ounce of respect and civility.
@Nate
Thank you for your kind words.
Yeah, yeah, he’s trying to ‘marginalize’ you. And you are trying to ‘marginalize’ him. Let the best marginalizer win.
@Bill Owen
If you believe that speaking truth to those who consciously conspire to quell contrary opinion is “marginalization,” then you have just condemned Glenn Greenwald – who has incessantly castigated his critics for attempting to mischaracterize his words, motives, and actions. You are better than that Bill.
@Wilhelmina: You may not be familiar with my usage of “hatchet job” and “smear” in an earlier comment you quoted in your response to my “Primer Part 1″ comment. For your edification, here are Webster’s definitions:
hatchet job noun
: a very harsh and unfair spoken or written attack
smear noun
: a usually unsubstantiated charge or accusation against a person or organization —often used attributively
I thoroughly read (and often reread) articles and comments before responding. Having read and reread the articles and comments of Paul Carr of Pando.com, Arthur Silber of powerofnarrative.blogspot.com, and numerous other bloggers, most of whom were linked to by commenters of this site, I reached a rational conclusion on their content and described, as clearly and concisely as I could, these articles as “hatchet jobs” and as “smears”.
Based on the happenings in the world that I’ve observed and learned about in my years residing on this planet, I’ve become a skeptic and follow a read, research, learn, and analyze approach before accepting what others write or say. I once was an optimist, now I’m a pragmatic optimist. Being a science, math, technology guy, I am a curiosity driven learner. I like to gather facts and evidence, and figure things out. That is what I do before commenting. I did this before posting my concern re the increasing number of “hatchet and smear job” articles on everything Snowden, The Intercept, and Glenn Greenwald. Your mileage may vary, as it apparently does.
Does anyone know how part of my comment became red? I have no clue.
“Does anyone know how part of my comment became red? I have no clue.”
@Jim… don’t question the magic – you are DEAD ON! Thank you for putting it so nicely … you are a gentleman among scholars.
Because you were quoting Jesus? Damifino.
@Jim Moore
“You may not be familiar with my usage of ‘hatchet job’ and ‘smear’ …”
It is not the usage of terms to which I took pointed exception. Rather, it was your own hypocritical use of “smear” tactics that were adorned in the guise of “reasonable” inference that I found repugnant.:
“It appears that the NSA has recruited more hired guns to smear anyone writing articles based on the Snowden documents. The smears are ones we seen before and are just as outlandish. Hopefully, they will not gain any traction with their lies.”
Interpreting contrary opinion in the worst possible way is not the actions of a “pragmatic optimist.” If you believe that the opinions of others are unduly “harsh” and/or unfair, then provide a reason based argument in support of that perspective. One would think that sound reasoning should be the chosen form of expression for a “science, math, technology guy.”
@Wilhelmina: Glenn and others, including commenters on Pando.Com, have previously critiqued Paul Carr’s articles on “all of the above”, and provided factual support for reaching a similar conclusion (hatchet and smear job) via “a reason based argument “. I saw no need to restate these fact-based arguments (mine are similar) for TI commenters since we have read Glenn’s rebuttal. The claims put forth by Silber and others are close to being carbon copies of the claims made by Paul Carr. So once again, why repeat them with the exact same rebuttal.
You stress a reason based argument. Please note that I base my arguments on evidence and facts coupled with reasoning, not just reasoning alone.
I reached and shared my summary conclusion that the NSA has recruited more hired guns (journalists and bloggers) to explain what my Internet research and reading uncovered. Do I have proof acceptable in court? No. Would I bet my house? No. Would I bet a night on the town? Yes. Please note that I do believe that the most probable contributor to the increasing ?journalists?/blogger hatchet job and smear attacks on “all of the above” is NSA monetary encouragement. Are the payments direct? Not likely. The NSA knows better.
Jealousy, fear, competitiveness, grudges, hatred, ego-boosting, “patriotism”, politics, “piling on” and other potential contributors do not, in totality, explain the “smear” phenomenon we are now witnessing. To explain this, I needed another ingredient – money. And the most likely source is the NSA.
“I reached and shared my summary conclusion that the NSA has recruited more hired guns (journalists and bloggers) to explain what my Internet research and reading uncovered.”
Your conclusions are based on pure conjecture. Can’t you see that? You have not offered a single shred of evidence in its support. The internet is a giant echo chamber. it is not unreasonable to conclude that Silber, Carr, and others regularly read each others opinions to inform their own. This same process can be clearly observed in the writings of those who, prior to joining the Intercept, closely mirrored the views of Glenn Greenwald. In fact, the collaborative nature of their association is far more demonstrable then those to whom you have taken exception. Examine the views of Scahill and Poitras that were published shortly before the announcement that Glenn Greenwald had teamed up with Pierre Omydar; they read like pure propaganda. Scahiil actually described Greenwald as the “Conscience of America.” Poitras ran point in the immediate aftermath of Miranda’s 12 hour detention by speaking in glowing terms about the essential nature of Miranda’s support role in Glenn’s work. Both were attempting to shape a narrative that cast Greenwald in the most flattering light. Neither revealed that at the time they were heaping unconditional praise on Glenn Greenwald, he (GG) was negotiating a deal with Pierre Omydar that would directly affect both of their livelihoods. Conspiracy? Collusion? Hidden motives? Nefarious, self-serving influence peddling? How would characterize their collaborative behavior? Judgement is always a two-edged sword.
@Wilhemina: Many of us frequent this site to read articles on subjects that interest us that are written by informed journalists who are not government lackeys, and to interact with others who offer insight and added information that they have discovered related to the subject article. We all learn from the interaction.
Some commenters offer unsupported opinions. Others offer extraordinary enlightening information. Some fill in gaps on the subject. Some just rant and criticize. Trolls come here to confuse and disrupt. A few are suspected to be representatives of the NSA and other agencies.
Why are you here? What have you learned from the articles and from your interaction with others?
Jim, with such top notch surveillance of this website’s comments, have you perhaps considered a job with the NSA!? Maybe you could be Zelda’s personal secretary!
@Nate: I retired fifteen years ago.
You could, however, suggest Abbadabba for the job as your NSA masters and Zelda could use an increase in “smarts”, and we wouldn’t mind parting with his company.
Jim, I’m glad your retirement is being spent so productively…
@Nate: Thank you. Retirement is not just being productive. Having time to stop and smell the roses and enjoy this life of ours is true bliss.
@Nate: I retired fifteen (15) years ago.
Since you are feeling unusually altruistic today, I suggest you recommend to your NSA masters and Zelda that she hire Abbadabba for her personal secretary. He will be a perfect fit, and we won’t mind him leaving for greener pastures.
Sorry for the double post. After waiting for over fifteen minutes for my first comment to appear, I reentered it. Now both are here.
Well, that’s just you being right two times. Kudos
@Jim Moore
We’re putting this list into a database. The working name of the database is ‘PIN WALE’ and we’re using a program we’ve called ‘X Keyscore’ to query and analyze it; if we find out those names are already taken, we’ll use other ones.
@Jim Moore… thank you for the troll-roll-call. :-)
U.S Journalists Against Transparency!!!! You’ve got to be kidding. Sounds like some Monte Python send-up.
We continue to learn of the Machiavellian methods of supposedly democratic governments as they attempt to find solid ground in the face of the Snowden revelations. …Invaluable!
Reagan- “Tear down them solar panels!”
I’m watchin’ my man, President Jimmy Carter on David Letterman. Jeebus fuckin’ skygod, if we had listened to him, instead of a preconditioned brain dead B actor- we might survive this apocalypse that will happen. And oh, it’s gonna happen. Our last true blue Democrat.
Jimmy is, by far, the most decent human being to have occupied the Oval Office in. . . quite a long time.
I suppose he bears significant responsibility for unleashing Zbig Brzezinski on the world, but even so. . .
That is the biggest danger to our republic- entrenched folks in all departments that see elected officials come and go- while they still run the ship. Full Stop (oh lookey, a pun!)
And for his decency he’s been smeared, maligned and ridiculed ever since.
You got that right, bruddah. Nice stinks in this country.
There isn’t many honest people that rise to the top in government in the U.S. but Jimmy Carter is one for sure. …. And America needs one now certainly.
He was boring with big peanut butter teeth and a brother who like his brew. Kill him! He proposed intelligent thought in where our energy concerns should be. Burn his ass! What the fuck? He wants to build houses for poor folks? Draw and Quartering is necessary for THAT shit.
Jimmy Carter was too honest a man to be a politician. I voted for him. I still wonder how he made it to the top political rung.
It was that rare clarifying moment that happens from time to scarce time where reason overruled power. I miss those days of hope. You know, true hope. Oh and don’t believe that Dick Cheney wasn’t takin’ notes. Lots of fuckin’ notes.
The prick, I’d tear him in half, but then there’d just be two of him crawling about.
_”Dreams From My Real Father: The Intimate Ann Dunham – Frank Marshall Davis Relationship”_
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMUlWbO1rhk
_”Dreams from My Real Father: A Story of Reds and Deception”_
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jrrnkKmUzo
Glenn,
What is your salary and what are your holdings? All of them. Transparency is of the utmost importance.
Stop blocking my post. Blocking posts proves you’re a hypocrite.
You know J. Edgar loved that term ‘G Man’. Member? You know where they was all doin’ the Charleston and wearin’ the latest risque skirts and nearly topless bras! Yes, that be J. Edgar. Like totally fabulous.
Now, please give me your social security number, the address of your former wife and at least three of your latest income tax forms. It’s just a formality, wink wink.
And to your paranoia- Kitt is keeping all of your stuff. Blame Pedinska for compiling a dossier on yer ass because that girl is RELENTLESS!1!
If Glenn is blocking posts, I suspect there would be at least 25% fewer comments on just this article and that number of would-be commenters would be echoing your “stop blocking my post” complaint. From my tally, it appears that you, Albert Meyer, and a handful of others are the only complainers.
I would guess that Glenn is making a ton of money (his salary) and has a ton of holdings. Is “a ton” sufficiently explanatory for your purpose? This is a metric ton since Glenn resides in Brazil, not his home country of the USA.
It looks like comments with multiple links do not show up. Is that a “glitch” or is there a limit on the number of links that are allowed in a comment?
Is it a feature or a bug?
So in other words, as it turns out, it was not the case that your critical comments and links were so scathing and devastating and incisive that we decided we just had to suppress and censor them?
Instead, it turns out that your comments were treated by the software system in exactly the same way as everyone else’s comments are treated – from the most favorable to the most incoherent?
Huh.
Don’t bother answering the question; just set up a straw man and then knock it down.
So if it isn’t ‘NSA/CIA’- which is it? Taker yer pick–
Air Force Intelligence
Army Intelligence
Coast Guard Intelligence
Defense Intelligence Agency
Department of Energy
Department of Homeland Security
Department of State
Department of the Treasury
Drug Enforcement Administration
Federal Bureau of Investigation
Marine Corps Intelligence
National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency
National Reconnaissance Office
Navy Intelligence
???
Way back in in this comment thread he told me that worked for a Canadian Gold Mining Outfit.
Dubious at best. However…..NAFTA is virtually uncharted territory at this time. Could be any UN appointed organization or agent.
as Glenn Greenwalds favorite ‘troll’ let me finally defend the honest man – because I can’t stand all this Nonsense anymore about ‘Greenwald ultimately comes down squarely on the side of power’ –
Hello!!
No – he doesn’t – or to be more precise – Glenn Greenwald has become ‘a man of power’ -(which is a good thing) – and all this funny talk or these suggestions – that ‘rich people’ (like this Omidyar dude) – have no right to be ‘crusaders for “privacy” are so…is so incredibly silly that they ‘seriously’ should be laughed of this site-
And about Glenn acting a lot more ‘responsible’ with ‘the data’ – than the much less responsible ‘dumbsters’ -(we should not name) – Thanx god –
FINALLY!
Probably the most intelligent post you have ever made, Pieceofcake. I’m startin’ to believe I will die soon over this revelation. Thank you, buffalo god, POC is finally sorta makin’ sense.
http://i713.photobucket.com/albums/ww138/Napewaste/pieceofcakejunkyard.jpg
It’s funny, I had a conversation with Laura Poitras’s distributors ex-husband. We were dating at the time. He told me if what I was describing ( a system of massive surveillance and ground operations with stalking. torture etc…) was really going on, a young hungry reporter at the NYT or Washington Post would expose the whole operation. Maybe in the 70’s, not now. He also told me I wasn’t important enough to be a “target”. He had great taste in art films, but was politically clueless.
They (yet to be determined) are preemptively destroying anyone who might be a threat. If you were lucky enough, to have some success early, you might survive. People in their 20’s/30’s…forget it your F*#cked, unless you pretend to outwardly go along with the program. Kind of how the system was in East Germany and the Soviet Union.
The American news is a total joke. I can’t believe Intercept can release numerous PowerPoint presentations about psychological operations against “targets” designed to destroy them and this is not reported anywhere!
Is this what a bot writes? Makes no sense.
I find this whole (wasted) discussion pathetic. Isn’t the term “troll” used when you simply want posters you agree with? I stayed around most of the day to respond to posters who disagreed with what I wrote. I’m not always right, but I hardly fear discussions centered around what I post. I almost always post directly to the writer of the article – and much less to below the line posters (except mostly in response).
And yes I post what I know or, at least, feel will be inflammatory. After having read many of Glenn’s post for the past 11/2 years, inflammatory posts should be no problem for most of you since the one clear truism regarding Glenn is he rocks the boat. Additionally, he sets a low bar when it comes to many of his responses to people. I found at the Guardian, the most personal insults came from Glenn’s supporters.
None the less, I am actually quite an admirer of Glenn. I don’t agree with him much on the issues, but he is more than willing to defend what he says. I have never seen him say: ignore the troll. In fact, he responds directly to posters even though I am sure he doesn’t have a lot of time – and most certainly doesn’t agree with many.
So spare me the BS about “trolls”. I don’t work for AIPAC or the NSA/CIA and I’m paid by my employer which has absolutely nothing to do with politics.
Thanks.
Actually, on several occasions I’ve seen him precede a comment to someone with something like, “Comments such as that are why I’ve ignored you.” I’m pretty sure that he even wrote that directly to you at least once.
He is hardly a “gentleman” poster, Kitt. He’s combative and arrogant. In fact, he sets the tone for many of his supporters who I mentioned are the worst I have encountered in several years of posting at the Guardian.
Thanks.
AND you’re (still) so cute – guys – and you always remind me on the good ole times – when ‘the temple of doom’ was predicting the end of the world -(as we know it) – and it probably already happened without you guys noticing? -(being so busy with all this back and forth…
Yeah, well, we all know Patrick Henry was all nicey nice to the British and John Paul Jones just gave his ship up because he didn’t want to be rude.
Fuck you (but in a polite way, of course)
You realize this is the very definition of trolling, right? To your credit, you’re a troll who’s looking to generate some fairly reasoned discussion. But look at this guy Albert Meyer below who posted 7 comments of nonsense in a row. See, there really are trolls who are trying to completely derail and ruin the discussion thread below an article.
This short dialog sums up CraigSummers method of operation on here completely:
– CraigSummers
Followed by Pedinska, who replied to CraigSummers:
And of course, no answer backing up or retracting the claim was forthcoming, just like the rest of CraigSummers commentary on here.
So while it’s one thing to be provocative here, that’s actually a bonus – it’s another thing entirely to make outright false claims, i.e., lies, and then to neither follow through on these claims and prove them, or to retract them as needed.
Velly observant. He talks like a rehearsed astroturfing sweat house employee.
I think it’s what is colloquially known as “trolling:”
– Wikipedia
And apparently he’s quite deliberate about this practice, too.
They actually think they’re influencing folks! It’s the old ‘if you say it enough, people will believe it’. I’ve seen Sunday Funnies Talk Shows with more conviction. Believe me, there’s a bunch of Greenwald readers that are sharp as a tack. I’m just the leather :)
“……..And apparently he’s quite deliberate about this practice, too……”
And I don’t mind admitting it, but if you are going to hold one individual to a standard, just make sure you hold everyone to the same standard including your hero, Greenwald. Anyone who doesn’t believe that Greenwald is deliberately provocative is living in the Land of Oz.
So fuck you (but in a polite way, of course).
CraigSummers, to be accurate, what was said was:
Admittedly, what surfaced first were the most questionable methods, constructed to, I recall, ensure that there never be another case of someone you’re watching overseas shows up on a visa and overstays it. Now who did that? At any rate, we can certainly speak about the telephone numbers access. But this is the NSA legitimately gathering information, as the law instructs it to do, about someone with whom we cooperate but cannot be presumed to be an ally or completely friendly. Who might be making secret plans of some kind. As Reagan said, endlessly, trust but verify. Is it true or not true that the Chinese Army are part or compete owners of Wauwei? Will you ever report on foreign intelligence gathering techniques, and demand that Putin disclose something? Can you think of no way where this certainty you have so “righteously” adopted can be justified? Do you in fact ever wonder if you are being played for a useful fool? Let’s see… 1938… end of the Olympics, Anschluss… ring a bell? Do you want to forever be adopting a totally hostile line to US intelligence? And why?
I need a digital rubber stamp with “This comment doesn’t make any sense”.
It looks like you already have one.
Missing Links part 3 – Arthur Silber:
http://powerofnarrative.blogspot.com/2014/03/in-which-our-self-proclaimed-hero.html
Reading the linked to article was a complete waste of my time. Who pays these people to write this stuff? the NSA?
Yes, Arthur Silber works for the NSA. How did you guess? Did he give himself away by disagreeing with Glenn’s methods?
No, by telling lies just like Clapper.
Priceless.
Missing Links part 2 – Arthur Silber:
http://powerofnarrative.blogspot.com/2014/03/edward-snowden-tattletale.html
Linked to Article summary: Arthur Silber argues for a data dump of all the Snowden documents without any redactions. He castigates Glenn, Laura, The Guardian, and others who possess the documents as being impediments to the public Good. Only worth reading if you support a data dump. I don’t for all the reasons that Glenn detailed in this article.
Missing Links part 1 – Tarzie:
http://ohtarzie.wordpress.com/2013/10/25/another-snowden-news-story-another-lesson-in-proper-whistleblowing/
As someone who spends a good part of every day frequenting The Intercept, reading the articles, following the comments thread, reading/viewing most of the linked-to articles/videos, and posting my own opinions and analyses, I am growing more concerned with the number of articles being written by bloggers and their ilk (Pando.com, etc.) that, in my analysis, are “hatchet” jobs on everything Snowden, everything Greenwald, everything The Intercept, you get the picture. It appears that the NSA has recruited more hired guns to smear anyone writing articles based on the Snowden documents. The smears are ones we seen before and are just as outlandish. Hopefully, they will not gain any traction with their lies.
Hi Glenn,
I reposted my missing comment in 4 sections, 3 paragraphs, and the links separately. The text paragraphs showed up, but the links did not. Do you censor Tarzie links, or Silber links, or both? I will try the links one at a time as an experiment.
Re-trying my comment one paragraph at a time. Paragraph 3:
One of your typical attacks on critics is to claim that a substantive criticism is not substantive. My criticism that you are hiding 99% of the documents from everyone but a privileged few and that they should have been (and still should be) released is substantive. My criticism that you and Snowden are talking shit about Manning and his “indiscriminate” dump of documents to the public is substantive. These criticisms have been levelled by several writers who are better (and better known) than me, including Tarzie and Arthur Silber (one of the great writers of our time, and a man whom you used to support and link to before you became so concerned about “national security”), and you have NEVER responded in any way other than making excuses and attacking your critics with the help of your zombie army of mindless Glenn-bot supporters. I used to be one of your biggest fans before you started hiding secrets on behalf of the NatSec state and then sold out to the highest bidder. You started out attacking the status quo, but now you represent the status quo. That is why I am criticizing you. You are willing to question anyone but yourself and your “team” (which now includes billionaire Pierre Omidyar). I am willing to question everyone including myself and my “team.” If Arthur says something stupid tomorrow, I will call him on it. If Barrett Brown starts advocating the hiding of information from the public, I will criticize him just like I am criticizing you. If I say something wrong or stupid, I sincerely hope that my friends and fellow seekers will let me know. Your evasions, attacks and excuses tell me that I’m on the right track.
*… Your evasions, attacks and excuses tell me that I’m on the right track….*
Three paragraphs to reach that conclusion, including *with the help of your zombie army of mindless Glenn-bot supporters* ;)
Do you mean that here free thinkers are bamboozled and become zombies under the control of Glenn’s Stasi?
The answer is YES ! Here we have been hypnotized by our new prophet Edward Snowden and watch out! If you want to stay safe you must leave that space at once… Go back to sleep and sweet dreams. When you wake up do not forget to inform the NSA accordingly ;)
So you believe that I should violate my agreement with my source, and subject him and a whole slew of other people to massively increased legal risks beyond what they’ve willingly decided to take for themselves?
Is that your view? Why can’t you just state your actual view honestly: I don’t care what Snowden wants. I don’t care what agreement you entered into with him at his insistence when, as your source, he gave you these documents. I don’t care what legal risks he faces or others who worked with him face.
It’s very easy to demand that others take risks. It’s just like what the neocons of 2002/2003 did: demand that others go and fight their wars while they sat at home feeling like strong and powerful warriors for wanting to send others to take all the risks. Now we have people thinking it makes them super-radical for demanding that others take risks while they sit fully protected at home doing nothing to actually challenge the state (so what if Snowden is charged with multiple felonies and faces decades in prison and the journalists involved are repeatedly threatened with prosecution for disclosing more top secret documents than have been seen in history: DO MORE!!!!!)
What I find most contemptible about your argument isn’t your demand that Snowden’s wishes be disregarded, or that we brazenly violate our agreement with him, or that we subject him and ourselves to massively heightened legal risks by dumping all the documents, or that you demand that other people take risks that you yourself don’t take – even though that is all incredibly contemptible.
What I find most contemptible is that you don’t even have the courage to admit what you’re arguing. You keep saying “release all the documents” without having the integrity to admit that what you’re actually arguing is that we violate our agreement with our source, disregard his repeatedly stated wishes, and make it far easier for the government not only to demonize the disclosures but also prosecute those responsible for them. At least have the integrity and honesty to admit what you’re demanding.
Yes, I believe that the public’s right to see documents that we own (under the archaic assumption that the government works for us and that we own it) trumps any agreement that you made with Snowden or anyone else, and it trumps your personal safety. If you are afraid to release the documents, then give them to me and I’ll release them, and you can blame it all on me. Let me visit you in Rio and I’ll “hack your computer” while you’re sleeping, and you can be an innocent victim.
I never denied that I think your agreement with Snowden is bullshit, on your side and his. To both of you I say “Either be a real whistleblower, or stop posing as one.”
Violating the agreement I entered into with my source as a condition for receiving these documents – and thus endangering his interests and subjecting him to all sorts of risks he didn’t decide to take – would be totally despicable on every last level. That you see him as a Thing to be Sacrificed for your Cause sickens me. Your proud willingness to deceive people and break your word to them is probably a good reason why nobody has come to you with documents.
That’s so easy to say. If you actually are this much of a risk-seeker willing to go to jail for your Cause, why aren’t you doing things like this? Why aren’t you in prison?
Would you release the raw emails and chats of people the NSA has collected, and thus destroy their privacy and ruin their lives? Would you release information that other states could use to subject their own citizens to heightened scrutiny? Would you release information that would jeopardize the lives of innocent people by identifying the dangerous things they have done?
Right: releasing more top secret documents than have been released in history is trivial. Obviously – unlike you – he’s done nothing “real” to challenge the state, which is why he’s charged with multiple felonies and decades in prison, while you sit safely at home.
If you have raw emails and chats that would be embarrassing for ordinary people who are guilty of nothing other than being spied on, that would make the choice harder, but I would still say that releasing everything is better than releasing 50 redacted documents out of 50K or more. Wikileaks managed to release Mannings documents with zero harm. They held back less than 1%. You released less than 1%.
It’s easy to dismiss critics by claiming that they have never taken a risk, but you have no clue what I’m doing or have done. Is being in prison a pre-requisite for criticizing your methods?
Your claim to have released “more top secret documents than have been released in history” is a lie. Manning and Assange did that, you did not. You denied the public access to more classified public-interest documents that have been withheld in history by someone calling himself a “journalist.”
Now suddenly Mr. Super Radical “release it all” tough guy has second thoughts when faced with actual decisions. And that wasn’t the only category I asked about.
Of course you do. You don’t care about innocent people’s privacy any more than you care about Edward Snowden’s legal risks. You care only about yourself and your own entertainment.
We’ve released far, far more than 50 documents.
You have no idea what you’re talking about. Almost none of what WL/Manning released was top secret. Almost all of it was a much, much lower secrecy designation of “classified” or “confidential”.
I’ll say it one more time: I find the idea that I should violate my agreement with Snowden and subject him to risks he did not want and does not want to take to be despicable – almost as despicable as those who demand that other people take risks for a cause they are not taking themselves.
Where do you get this “99%” number?
I used math. See my response to Glenn above. I am being charitable by saying 50K; the actual number of withheld documents appears to be significantly larger. Glenn hasn’t given us a number, but AFAIK he has not disagreed with the numbers mentioned by NSA and GCHQ spokespeople.
Glenn, do you want to comment on the number of documents you are withholding?
Retrying my comment one paragraph at a time. Paragraph 2:
I did tweet the new info, that my comments from last night are now visible. If you had anything to do with them becoming visible, then I thank you, otherwise I thank the the apparently incompetent coders who wrote the malfunctioning software that you use to manage comments.
Re-trying my comment one paragraph at a time. Paragraph one:
Hi Glenn,
My comments did eventually appear. They were not visible earlier. Is there anything to retract? Am I self-victimizing because I mentioned that your comment software conveniently malfunctions to hide critical comments? I don’t know why this happened, but other commenters say that it happens frequently and has not been fixed even though you are aware of it. Is it censorship or incompetence? If a critical comment is missing from the discussion and then appears after everyone has gone to sleep, what do you call that?
“This weekend’s New York Times story (David E. Sanger and Nicole Perlroth reporting) on US hacking into the Chinese telecommunications giant, Huawei has inspired a thoughtful debate about the propriety of the media publishing information about secret NSA intelligence surveillance of foreign populations.
“The editorial decision to publish the story may have been wrong-headed, all things considered. Nevertheless, Glenn Greenwald is correct to seize on a key distinction:”
“[T]here is a huge difference between spying on what are generally regarded to be legitimate foreign targets (political and military officials of adversary governments) and collecting the private communications of entire populations en masse.”
“Although Glenn does not mention it, international law backs him up—and as a consequence cuts into Ben Wittes’s critique of Glenn’s position.”
Revealing Omidyar-White House ties prompts new editorial “independence” statement by “First Look Media.”
http://pando.com/2014/03/24/first-look-publishes-new-editorial-independence-statement-after-pando-reveals-omidyar-white-house-ties/
What evidence do you have that Pando/Carr’s gagillionth piece of “I hate Greenwald” post had anything to do with, much less “prompted” the statement?
By the way, Carr wrote on twitter that “Every single one of the people who post in comments at The Intercept are loons. Every single one of them!” I paraphrased that just a little, but without exaggeration. I read it a day or two ago and it was just like that but I’m not searching for his exact words. But that apparently includes you. Kind of a bummer shilling for someone who calls you a loon, isn’t it?
Right. And somewhere a butterfly is farting and stirring up the next hurricane.
You need a new reed, Oboe. Carr spends so much time hyperventilating he must own the world’s biggest fainting couch. He’s running around with his ass on fire even though he readily admits in that very article that First Look is a thorn in the backside of the Obama administration:
He should get back to us when he has actual evidence – in plain English as opposed to Cyrillic this time – that someone at The Intercept is sucking on Obama’s hind tit, and not before.
And this bit is an outright lie,
Greenwald has responded to the nasty editorial independence insinuations – and that’s what that is with the careful wording about contract terms, which are none of Carr’s business unless and until he’s willing to put his own contract online where we can all apply proctoscopes to it – multiple times.
Here is just one response from December 1 of last year:
http://utdocuments.blogspot.com.br/2013/12/questionsresponses-for-journalists.html
Carr’s sniveling is just that, sniveling, unless and until he can point to proof his slimy regurgitations have factual basis. Until then he should go pedal his services to the trash mags that spend their time making shit up about the latest Kardashian revelations, where his brand of tabloid pandering is a better fit.
U.S. Intelligence Officials Believe Snowden Is Working With Russia, Lawmaker Says
NY Times article March 23, 2014
Mike Rogers has been saying that for a while. But he’s the only one saying it.
https://twitter.com/trevortimm/status/440907352145813505
Mike Rogers said that. MIKE “I see NOTHING!” ROGERS
Now, put that in yer pipe and throw that fuckin’ smoking device as far as you can.
Inhaling Mike Rogers (R-Stasiville) is dangerous for yer health, after all.
I ain’t smokin’ what Rogers is tokin.
just posted to add context to current coverage
Would you consider ES a thief? If you stole from a major corporation it would be considered theft.
No, a liberator of the people’s truth. It’s the NSA that stole shit. A private contract doesn’t trump the 4th Amendment and Edward saw massive corruption. It was his duty as a patriotic American.
It’s a good question. I think Titonwan has a good version of the right answer.
Would you consider Daniel Ellsberg a thief? Have the courage to state that clearly.
Glenn, where is the 3 -paragraph comment that I posted over 5 hours ago? I reposted it 3 hours ago and it still hasn’t shown up. Why don’t you just admit that you are “moderating” comments?
So why didn’t he moderate this one? I think it’s moonbeams. For sure.
CraigSummers stole all the bandwidth with his ‘War&Peace’ diatribes. He broke the damned intertubes. Again.
Hey Bill :)
CraigSummers stole all the bandwidth with his ‘War&Peace’ diatribes.
He is a bit windy……. ;-}
There is very little that is dark, malevolent, smelly or state worshiping that cannot be blamed on Mr. Summers.
heh
3 paragraphs?
sigh…
I’m pretty sure that, were the TI staff actually moderating your comments, we’d see many fewer of them here. ;^)
Oh, was that yours? Sorry, I have it. I’m using it to line the bird cage. But if you want it back I’ll see if it’s legible and return it. Okay?
Kee Hee! It prolly wasn’t legible before all the bird ‘edits’. :)
Ya’ll need to stop it. You’re making my cracked rib hurt. ;-}
Snowden for president!
There are noteworthy events happening everyday but it is impossible to make sense of all of them exactly as they unfold. Technology has allowed us to follow the world faster than ever before, such that reporting is no longer uncovering this world. Instead it has fallen victim to hardwares and softwares, adapting to their fantastic capabilities to deliver at breakneck speeds instead of having them adapt to the journalists desire to dig deeper; an emphasis on the truth of the moment versus the truth that comes to light.
Certainly the former is part of the media’s job, but now the world is moving so far ahead of itself that we can no longer keep up with our understanding of it and ourselves as a part of it. Now has become a vital time to slow down and make sense of what is happening around us, within us. Delivering a careful analysis is what is needed, not any extraordinary story in the hour, by the minute, a few seconds ago, to the point of turning the cacophony of noteworthy into the everything and mundane.
Thank you Glenn and co. for emphasizing our presence within time and not a few seconds ago. It is important that we all try to serve the future and not this very moment.
Hmm…
1. Snowden gained employment with US Government contractors with the specific intent of secretly copying classified documents that have been subsequently provided to Glenn Greenwald, Laura Poitras, and the NYT.
2. In providing those classified documents to the aforementioned entities, conditions governing their publication were stipulated by Mr. Snowden.
3. One such condition was that Journalists be allowed to exercise their own professional judgment in determining which documents are suitable for publication.
4. Therefore, the responsibility for that which is published exclusively resides with the publisher of said classified documents and not with Snowden who was merely the original source of those documents.
If, in fact, this is the case, then how can Snowden harbor any reasonable expectation that any particular document will not be published? How can Glenn Greenwald argue that he has a duty to honor Snowden’s personal preference that “not all of the documents be published” when the decision to publish any particular document solely resides with the publisher? I believe that “critics” will rightly characterize this obvious attempt at doublespeak as “bizarre.” Man up Glenn, stop invoking Snowden’s name every time that you need a justification for the way in which you have chosen to commodify the stolen classified documents that, by your own reckoning, were unconditionally provided to you. All reasonable people understand that one cannot have their cake and eat it too.
That cake saying is flawed, and thus so is your logic. One must have a cake in order to eat cake, so you can in fact have your cake and eat it too. If you look at it as saying one cannot eat their cake and have their cake simultaneously, that too is erroneous; even once the cake is eaten, you still have it in the most personal sense.
Also, by stating that by Glenn’s own reckoning the documents were “unconditionally provided,” you have demonstrated that you didn’t even glance at number 2 of your own list, let alone grasp anything that Glenn wrote.
One cannot continue to have one’s cake, if one has already eaten it. Likewise, Greenwald cannot argue that he owes a specific duty to Snowden while simultaneously availing himself of the fact that that duty was expressly waived by Snowden.
I think I am just having trouble seeing how you can simultaneously admit that Snowden put conditions on the documents’ release and then say that there were no conditions … is it because he released them at all? Surely the speed of their dissemination to journalists was necessitated by the government’s full-fledged effort to reign in what could be discovered.
To me, it’s perfectly possible to release information, some of which you want to remain confidential, but which is tied to the overall picture. The simple release of the documents doesn’t eliminate the conditions (or the fact that the person who released them asked for conditions) to have some parts of the information remain out of the public eye, and I think most whistleblowers would agree.
@ clubseal
“I think I am just having trouble seeing how you can simultaneously admit that Snowden put conditions on the documents’ release and then say that there were no conditions … is it because he released them at all?”
I do not “admit” that Snowden put a condition on the release documents that amounts to a non-condition (Journalist can publish what they think is best). Rather, this is the very argument presented by Greenwald in this article to which I have taken noted exception…
My reading was that the conditions were to not publish anything that could put someone’s life in danger, but beyond that, journalists could use their judgement to decide which documents would be in the public interest.
It is possible to have that be the case, right? In fact, Glenn’s own words show: “As he has said repeatedly, he wanted journalists – not himself – to make these decisions based on what is in the public interest and what can be disclosed without subjecting innocent people to harm.”
To me, it is fairly explicit that while journalists are expected to exercise their judgement, it is expected that those decisions will not be “subjecting innocent people to harm.”
In all fairness, though, your argument (and many in the media) simply detracts from would should be the focal point: the information revealed to us. You obviously can have whatever opinions you wish to have, but it seems you’re intelligent enough to see through these petty distractions that are probably not as important as our government trying to set up an all-knowing fascism machine.
“In all fairness, though, your argument (and many in the media) simply detracts from would should be the focal point: the information revealed to us. You obviously can have whatever opinions you wish to have, but it seems you’re intelligent enough to see through these petty distractions that are probably not as important as our government trying to set up an all-knowing fascism machine.”
If I am going to participate in exorcizing “the devil that I know”, then I am also going be certain that a more malevolent entity does not fill the void. Those who are most often giving voice to anti-fascist rhetoric are possessed of ideological solutions that are every bit as draconian in nature as those to which they falsely profess to take moral exception.
@Wilhelmina
You are very wise. And I should add, one can never be certain.
Yes. Those opposing the current order are almost invariably not only misguided, but are ideological fanatics who ooze hypocrisy. You describe the Socialists to a T.
If I am going to participate in exorcizing “the devil that I know”, then I am also going be certain that a more malevolent entity does not fill the void.
Have you spent any time exorcizing the other journalistic devils who published this material? Bart Gellman? Laura Poitras? The folks at NYT, Spiegel and all around the world who have published documents as well? Or is Glenn the only devil you choose to pursue?
@Pedinska
Have you ever felt compelled by ethical consideration disclose the fact that you are a personal friend of Glenn Greenwald as a preface to having others weigh your perspective?
@Wilhelmina
I’ve met Glenn personally once. At a lecture attended by several hundred other people. I believe we talked for about 5 minutes before his attention was needed elsewhere.
In what universe does that short period of acquaintance make me his personal friend?
Now, would you kindly respond to my reasonable request for links/proof? Or will you concede that you have none and that you are his personal enemy?
@Pedinska
“Have you spent any time exorcizing the other journalistic devils who published this material? Bart Gellman? Laura Poitras? The folks at NYT, Spiegel and all around the world who have published documents as well? Or is Glenn the only devil you choose to pursue?”
I never claimed that I “exorcizing… journalistic devils who published this [Snowden] material. The “devil” to whom I was referring were those “within government trying to set up an all-knowing fascism machine” (as per clubseal). Now, that I have addressed your question directly, please answer mine: Why are you so desperate to take my comments out of context?
Really wasn’t trying to take anything out of context. If I did I apologize.
I am, however, interested to know if you spend any time in Bart Gellman’s comment sections insinuating that he should be prosecuted for his articles.
Do you?
“Really wasn’t trying to take anything out of context. If I did I apologize.”
An “If, Then, Else” apology is no apology at all. It is merely evasiveness masquerading as reasonableness. A reread of the thread leaves no doubt that you took my comment out of context. How can I expect to engage you in a respectful exchange of opinion with you are unable to unequivocally admit that you were wrong in the face of irrefutable evidence?
You believe there’s a contradiction between:
1) Exercise your judgement on which documents should be published.
2) Not all documents should be published.
The staff of The Intercept must spend hours attempting to decipher this excruciatingly complex puzzle. Whatever shall they do?
That is not where I said the contradiction lies – although I understand your need to believe it is.
Another reason that has been given by Glenn about why some of the documents haven’t been or are not being published is because they are basically an instruction manual for other surveillance entities in other countries to grow their surveillance practices.
@Kitt
Interesting point… Source?
Here is one of the times I’ve read Glenn write about that:
The quote that you provide is simply a rhetorical question. Has Glenn Greenwald explicitly claimed that the Snowden documents include “instruction manuals” that if published would “help other states spy more effectively on their own citizens’ internet activities”? If so, please provide the link. I would be interested in the exact percentage of documentation that can be categorized as “instructional” in nature. I suspect that, if such documentation actually exists, it accounts for a significantly small percentage of the Snowden docs, and is therefore a red herring.
Yes, but I don’t know if he used the exact term “instructional manuals.” But then that’s a lame “red herring” of you to ask for that exact term, since all sorts of information could qualify as instructive for the purpose mentioned. It’s extremely likely that the documents would provide such information. Not at all a mysterious consideration.
No. Find links your own damned self.
“Yes, but I don’t know if he used the exact term “instructional manuals …. ”No. Find links your own damned self.”
So you now admit that Glenn Greenwald did not explicitly state that which you originally attributed to him. And, in arguing that he implied that the Snowden documents included “instruction manuals” that, if published, would “help other states spy more effectively on their own citizens’ internet activities”, you balk at providing substantiation of your claim.
How many time have you asked other commenters to provide sourcing for their “alleged” facts?
No, I “admit”no such thing. Does it matter if he used the exact words I used “instruction manual,” to describe exactly what he did describe in the link I provided. And for all I know, he did “instruction manual” in a video or some other link not at my fingertips.
You’re making an ass of yourself knit picking descriptive words and getting all high and mighty with, “you admit…” Do you really doubt that there would be a lot of useful information in the documents for other surveillance states to use for improving their ability to spy on their own citizens? I realize you’ve already stated that its a “red herring,” but that just you “admitting” that you’re determined to fold your arms to your chest, stick your chin out and scowl.
“… Source?”–Wilhelmina
Here’s another one:
@Kitt
“There are things that we’ve already held back,” Greenwald said. “He didn’t want us just dumping documents that would, for example, enable other countries to copy the massive surveillance scheme that the NSA is building and impose that on their own citizens. We didn’t want to print blueprint guides for other countries and intelligence services as to how to replicate what the NSA is doing. We just want to inform the American people about what their government is doing so they can democratically decide if that’s what they want.” –GG
This is a far cry from the claim that the Snowden documents included “how to” manuals. Greenwald is making the argument that the publication of certain technical aspects of NSA surveillance techniques may result in the undesirable effect of their replication by less sophisticated governments. Even this perspective is deeply flawed. A technical understanding of such methods is essential to the development of countervailing measures. For example:
“A YouTube video uploaded by an anonymous user has publicly revealed a private conversation between Victoria Nuland, Assistant Secretary of State for European Affairs, and Geoffrey Pyatt, the U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine. In the tape, the two officials discuss a plan to broker a deal between the Ukrainian government led by Viktor Yanukovich and the Ukrainian opposition, which is led in part by former boxer Vitali Klitschko.”
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/02/06/state-dept-official-caught-on-tape-fuck-the-eu.html
All of this is merely a distraction from the fact that Glenn Greenwald has chosen to disseminate the Snowden documents in a way that best facilitates his own ambition. This tact is neither surprising nor unusual. Rather, it is merely the American way of doing business. Advancing ones personal ambition in service to the common good is the essence of enlightened self-interest. It is in this regard that Glenn Greenwald has revealed that his core belief system is no different from the career corporatists upon whose bones he has built his career.
It is a completely valid point and well articulated. In an earlier post, I guessed that Snowden’s vast collection of records meant that he either: “(1) didn’t have the time or resources to review the vast cache of documents he acquired, or (2) he anticipated that everything he collected (being reasonable – with perhaps some redactions in documents) deserved to be brought into the sunlight.”
Glenn categorically dismissed this notion, stating that “Neither option is what happened, and had you read what I wrote, you’d know that there are plenty of others.” Glenn said that:
This statement presents a somewhat false dilemma because it implies that Snowden’s decision to not recklessly leak all the documents, meant that he never intended for most or all of the documents be published by news organizations. I think he learned from the mistakes of Chelsea Manning; by giving these documents to well-known news organizations he smartly added credibility and objective analysis and interpretation to complex documents. Furthermore, it slowed the flow of information, allowing us readers time to digest the information.
Glenn’s justification is that Snowden provided information that he always inteded would stay off the record because in part it served merely as background information. I for one am extremely skeptical of this claim. First, how do you define “background information” when many of the revelations have come in the form of PowerPoint slides, which are the epitome of background information, as opposed to actual reports or policy statements. Furthermore, to believe this explanation, you’d have to accept that of the tens of thousands of documents, the vast majority are background information that for some unknown reason were withheld.
I hesitate to characterize GG’s efforts as commoditization or “privatizing” as Pando claimed months back. These documents have been given to several different organizations. I’ve seen in-depth analysis from the WP, Guardian, NYT, Pro Publica, Der Spiegel, NBC and probably others I am forgetting. If I had been GG (or more accurately: the Guardian who seemingly handled most the logistics), I probably would have done almost exactly the same thing, with the exception of promising new details in an upcoming book which I believe borders on monetization of the leaks. Bottom line is that Snowden gave Poitras and GG the documents and not the Guardian, so why should GG be expected to sit under the Guardian’s roof to report all this? Even though I strongly disagree with some of TI’s articles, their analysis of the records, and GG’s style of journalism, GG and Co. have done us all a service by revealing the information under the umbrella of The Intercept.
You can’t imagine what those documents might be? I’ll give it a shot. Let’s say there’s information in the documents about specific hacking techniques or ways to circumvent encryption flaws. For example, it might say we use this tool or software to carry out this specific type of SQL injection, and these are the SQL queries we attempt — in a very technical and detailed way. That information is sensitive for a variety of reasons, but it could be useful if analyzed by a technical person to better inform the reporting.
Your explanation makes perfect sense and is a nice example (although I could argue that what you described would be better characterized as “technical details” than “background information” which is usually a primer on a topic). But my point was not being unable to imagine the type of background information, but reconciling the claim with the vastness of the amount of records he took (between 100,000 – 1.7 million documents, spanning NSA, GCHQ, and others) and their diversity (covering so many topical areas). It strikes me as a ‘take everything and sort it all out later’ method. Unless Snowden is a supercomputer masquerading as a human, I don’t think it is possible to collect so much information in any organized manner. Hypothetically, if Snowden’s collection methodology was based on a number of key-word searches (i.e. pull all documents with the words “PRISM” or “metadata” or “Zelda” [j/k]), I think calling all the queried data “background information” would require a redefinition of what the term means.
If your issue is whether he read them all, according to Ben Wizner, his lawyer, Snowden did have knowledge of the contents of every document he took. If I’m not mistaken, he said that in this debate: http://www.npr.org/2014/02/18/279151014/debate-was-edward-snowden-justified
First off, thanks for the link. I love these types of “For/Against the Motion” debates. It’s going to take a while to read this whole transcript but in an attempt to respond to your question I searched through Wizner’s responses and did not find it. But that doesn’t matter, if Wizner stated it as you did, my question would be twotold: (1) how many docs did he take – this is critical to determining the reasonableness of his claim that he had knowledge of all their contents, and
(2) how deep was his knowledge of the contents. Tough to say but we can add perspective by comparing the time that elapsed between him pulling the data to the number of records taken. That relies on making some assumptions. First, let’s pretend the number of documents he took is the bare minimum – 100,000 docs. Now we need to determine the time that elapsed. According to the Washington Post’s timeline of Snowden’s life (I know, that sounds ridiculous!) [http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/page/politics/a-timeline-of-edward-snowdens-life/235/] in Early 2013 he got a job at the Hawaii facility which implies that he collected the documents during an approximately 6 month period. But to be as conservative as possible, I went with Snowden’s wikipedia page that said: “Keith Alexander told the U.S. House Intelligence Committee that Snowden “moved into the Booz Allen position in March [2013], but he had worked in an information technology position for the 12 months preceding that at NSA Hawaii. So he’d actually been there 15 months. He had moved from one contract to another.”” Therefore, the assumption is that he took 100,000 documents over a 15 month period. Let’s assume that all 100,000 documents are only a single page long (which is seriously a stretch but I am going for conservatism on this guess.
This would mean that Snowden would have had to reviewed 222.22 pages every single day over 15 months! [(100,000 pages divided by 450 days (15 months x 30 days)]. And this is the low end of the estimate. Hence, he may have been aware of the general topical nature of the contents, but to assume he was knowledgeable of each page’s contents just seems implausible.
@Nate
“I hesitate to characterize GG’s efforts as commoditization or “privatizing” as Pando claimed months back. ”
Thank you for a very thoughtful response. You have obviously given careful consideration to the various elements of your argument; I respect that.
I wonder if you would be willing to consider the following:
1. In publishing the Snowden documents, Glenn Greenwald repeatedly justified his actions by comparing them to those of journalists like Bob Woodward, who routinely publish classified secrets for profit sake. Glenn Greenwald sees no inherit conflict of interest in his profit-driven modus-operandi. I do.
2. Glenn Greenwald and Laura Poitras are the only two journalists who have complete access to the Snowden collection of stolen classified documents. Yet, Glenn continues to nurture the patent falsehood that the volume and rate of disclosure of the Snowden documents are not subject to manipulation of their collaboration by arguing that “third parties” also possess an undefined subset of those documents. This argument is so lacking in merit its embarrassing. What percentage of the entire trove of Snowden documents do third parties possess? What is the nature of those documents; are they news worthy? Absent independent verification of the entire collection, how do we know that that which is being published is not being driven by the need to maximize profit at the expense of the public’s “need to know” by means of timely disclosure? After all, it is not unreasonable to assume that the uber-capitalist Pierre Omydar is concerned with optimizing the profit potential of the Snowden revelations by legally harnessing the journalistic aspirations of Greenwald and Poitras. Movie and Book deals do nothing to allay the public perception that profit is of paramount importance.
I’m not sure I fully understand your comparison to Bob Woodward. I have read a couple of his Bush-era books and “Obama’s Wars” and “The Price of Poltics,” so I get that he has some significant insider-access including his penchant to get detailed and often “anonymous” quotes from sources, some of which contain classified information. But it never struck me as profit hungry. How else would Woodward get the information out? As for Glenn, the way he’s spread the documents just doesn’t strike me as profit-motivated at all. Even my earlier criticism of revealing leaks in his upcoming book could be fraught with nuance – maybe he plans to give some of the proceeds to the EFF or ACLU! Who knows, but I think it’s dangerous to speculate such damning information about people’s intentions without backing it with compelling evidence. I haven’t encountered any. I’d argue the opposite. GG’s patience in reporting supports this notion. Again, I have been a bigger critic of his work than possibly anybody on this forum, but I will never criticize his attention to detail and patience (I just cannot agree with some of his interpretations). Sometimes he hits it out of the park. For example, the recent piece on Turbine and the NSA’s use of computer network intrusions. It was stunningly good. It took me nearly 3 days on and off to read all the narrative, slides, links and analysis and then when done I read the narrative again. The day it came out, my eyes were bloodshot from not blinking while staring at my ipad. That is not the work of someone solely or even primarily motivated by profit.
I’ll try to respond to your other point later but have to take off right now.
In defending himself against allegations by MSM pundits that he is personally profiting from the release of the Snowden documents, Greenwald has been quick to point out the fact that Woodward got rich by disclosing classified secrets in numerous books and articles. Thus, the comparison to Woodward is not mine but Greenwald’s….
Why do you think that you have a right to any of this information?
“If, in fact, this is the case, then how can Snowden harbor any reasonable expectation that any particular document will not be published? ”
The reasonable man’s obvious answer to this question is real hard for authoritarians to understand, but I’ll give it to you anyway. Snowden, Poitras and Greenwald corresponded via email prior to meeting in Hong Kong, where they spoke at length about the nature of the material he gave them. He explained why he was releasing it, what he hoped to accomplish, and what he expected they would do with it.
He believed they would honor his wishes based on his assessment of their characters and political beliefs. Both had amply documented what those beliefs were. They both had lengthy and very public track records. They were and are known quantities — at least as much as any man can be.
He had a valid, fact-based expectation that they would do the right thing as he saw it. I doubt he gave a shit about anything like your tendentious “particular document” theory. He expected them to expose gross, anti-constitutional government overreach while doing as little damage as possible to our interests. He recognized that the comfort of the powerful — their over-developed belief in their own utter sanctity — is not one with the interests of the American people. Nor in accordance with the demands of our Constitution.
He appears to have this queer notion that all men — non-Americans included — have certain inalienable rights. He must have read about this novel idea somewhere, possibly in a document he obtained in the course of his employment. It seems to have informed his decision-making process.
“The reasonable man’s obvious answer to this question is real hard for authoritarians to understand, but I’ll give it to you anyway. Snowden, Poitras and Greenwald corresponded via email prior to meeting in Hong Kong, where they spoke at length about the nature of the material he gave them. He explained why he was releasing it, what he hoped to accomplish, and what he expected they would do with it. ”
By Snowden’s own account, much of the classified materials that he acquired was done after having made original contact with Glenn Greenwald via Laura Poitras. If, in fact, they spoke at length concerning “the nature of the material he [would] give them” prior to their meeting in Hong Kong, then both Laura and Poitras are legally subject to conspiracy charges in aiding Edward Snowden in the acquisition of classified documents for the purpose of “communicating them to unauthorized persons.”
I would be very reluctant to give voice to this position if, in fact, it is true – unless, of course, you are attempting to implicate Mr. Greenwald in the theft of the aforementioned classified documents.
Correction: “both Laura and Poitras” should have read “both Greenwald and Poitras”
I missed the source for you stating “By Snowden’s own account, much of the classified materials he acquired was done after having made original contact with Glenn Greenwald via Laura Poitras”. Please help me fill in the gaps in my knowledge re all things Snowden by proving me your source. A link would be very welcome.
“Please help me fill in the gaps in my knowledge re all things Snowden by proving me your source. A link would be very welcome.”
If you are willing to provide me with an email address, then I would be glad to share with you a list of sources and relevant quotes. There are far to many to post here.
Per Wilhelmina:
1. Snowden gained employment with US Government contractors with the specific intent of secretly copying classified documents that have been subsequently provided to Glenn Greenwald, Laura Poitras, and the NYT.
2. In providing those classified documents to the aforementioned entities, conditions governing their publication were stipulated by Mr. Snowden.
3. One such condition was that Journalists be allowed to exercise their own professional judgment in determining which documents are suitable for publication.
4. Therefore, the responsibility for that which is published exclusively resides with the publisher of said classified documents and not with Snowden who was merely the original source of those documents.
If, in fact, this is the case,
“Agreed, but with the very important caveat of there being more than “one such condition,” because there were other conditions. OK, continue…”
Legally binding conditions? Really? Please provide that which you know.
“Disagree – see caveat above, which, because of other conditions set by Snowden that are outside the journalist’s control, this therefore precludes the documents from being released using journalistic judgment alone. OK, continue…”
Repeatedly claiming that their are conditions which “preclude the documents from being released using journalistic judgment alone” does not make it so. You do understand that the four numbered claims were either articulated by Glenn Greenwald or Snowden, don’t you?
No mention of “legally binding.” Really. Just other conditions, per your comment.
Well, to my knowledge that’s the first I’ve heard of these “repeated claims.” I’m dissecting your argument as you posted it. It was unattributed, after all.
Since you didn’t attribute or cite your comments, then no. This makes them your comments.
Given that your own post was unattributed and/or not cited it’s quite hard to effectively respond when you apparently are using others words and not your own.
With that said, it still does not follow that you can have documents released in the first place with more than one condition (hence the plural “conditions”) and then go on to say that journalists are “allowed to exercise their own professional judgment in determining which documents are suitable for publication.”
I do, however, agree in the end that “the responsibility for that which is published exclusively resides with the publisher of said classified documents and not with Snowden who was merely the original source of those documents.”
It is clear that you have no grasp of the subject to which you speak. In fact, it is evident that you did not read the article to which this thread is attached. It is not my responsibility to acquaint you with the basic facts as a preface to making you understand my perspective. Please take your uninformed opinions elsewhere.
No, thank you. I’ll keep them safely, right here with yours.
Well my wife should be happy I found a story about the NSA leaks that I strongly disagree with.
I have been very supportive and I’m almost full agreement about the disclosure of some of the NSA and my governments national security was a verye been we need to know. I have been mastly critical of some of the ways NSA uses to get information they are overly broad, violating of the American constitution particular about unreasonable search and secure of property, guilty before marked innocent which everything I know about what is the spirit of our constitution. The other part is the use of methods of weakening security, inserting back doors, and DDOS style hacking. The way it operates is similar to a biological weapon its release seems targeted but then it mutates. Understand this any back door or security flaw will be found with 100% certainty hopefully by white hats before black. It can easily be turned against the people it was supposed to be working for.
With that said now the artical.
For the most part they are denying any wrong doing by snowden or the journalists.
(1) Edward Snowden has not leaked a single document to any journalist since he left Hong Kong in June: 9 months ago.
Mostly this has no relevance just because he has not released any documents recently does not protect him or the journalist of wrong doing. The act of release is enough regardless if the data was used all at once or piecemeal over several years. Snowden or the related journalist and editors the act of disclosure incriminates all parties. So saying he hasn’t released anything is plainly untrue.
2) Publication of an NSA story constitutes an editorial judgment by the media outlet that the information should be public.
Well you can’t pile all the releases and judgement into one statement. Case by case these decisions are or are not in the public interest can be made. While some documents are in the us interest or worldwide some most certainly are not such as the release of the corporate hacking. This was very poor editorial judgement and if any of the journalists are US it may be considered treason and a very serious crime where the death penalty does apply by the way.
Leaks by their nature are a very big grey zone by revealing them could be a crime or not but if the information violates other laws is a very thin line. I do not believe every leak deserves to be brought to the public knowledge. Also any laws that are broken are from the USA intrest and point of view. So while it was helpful to china it otherwise offer nor other public need.
(3) Snowden has made repeatedly clear that he did not want all of the documents he provided to be published. … He can not absolve him self of any guilt by saying he didn’t want to make the judgement nor are the journalists have no guilt by accepting them in the first place. The act of giving the documents by it self is where the guilt is judged. By giving documents that he didn’t think or should not be is where his decision must be viewed. So his judgement was to give documents at all is his judgment. So if in the future something he did not thing should be published automatically give him guilt or any other leaker. He can not absolve guilt just by saying it wasn’t my judgement.
(4) The jingoistic view of what is “newsworthy” is baseless and warped. Somewhere along the way, this idea arose that the only “legitimate” disclosures involve ones showing violations of the rights of American citizens. Anything else, this reasoning holds, is invalid, and because Snowden leaked documents that go beyond the violation of Americans’ rights, he is not a legitimate whistleblower.
Well unfortunately the treason must be judged from American eyes other country’s interest are another matter. The documents were from American intelligence the laws and violations or just lack of common sense first must be judged from the originator which in this case us intelligence apparatus. I do not know how all other countries which are us allies and have extradition requests. Newsworthy isn’t really the issue #1 the original leak was primarily related to us citizens or #2 everyone such as security and back doors. from that point on the water gets very murky. The information such as the above references case hurts the us from real intelligence work and harms us ally’s and helps china. So is it sensationalism or real need to know.
The article references back to the original leaks and tries to apply universal need to know/newsworthiness to anything else that is related. The reality of the issue is the way intelligence works and this is how all country’s intelligence works period. He even stated that it is legal which is where he lost the argument or point he was trying to make from the very beginning.
“But there is a huge difference between spying on what are generally regarded to be legitimate foreign targets (political and military officials of adversary governments) and collecting the private communications of entire populations en masse. It’s untenable to claim that bulk surveillance has been democratically ratified given that almost all Americans, even most members of Congress, were completely unaware that any of this was happening until we reported it. One can’t reasonably claim that a government program which almost nobody knew about has been democratically approved.
More to the point: mere legality is insufficient to shield a program from justifiable transparency; conversely, exposure of illegality is not the only form of valid reporting. Take the classic whistleblowing case of the Pentagon Papers: those documents really did not reveal illegality as much as they revealed government deceit, systematic lying to the American people about the Vietnam War. The fact that such official lying may have been legal hardly means that it should have remained concealed.
but that is exactly the point. The article referenced was not about in mass spying on Americans or everyone. the leak was a legitimate intelligence target. All countries intelligence works in the way described and each host country laws are not violated nor are us or worldwide citizens harmed. I am sorry but not every action needs complete transparency some things must be left in the dark.. Just because your opinion is full transparency it doesn’t make it right.
This is important stuff..
Great article Glen. The United States could use a thousand more reporters with your courage, quality, and character. Thank you.
I like a bit of anarchy because normally social regulation starts quickly. No one wants to be isolated. But some like to isolate others. Me too – sometimes. It is not easy to embrace everyone. Right now I am happy to see all these comments because I feel everybody works so hard to balance a difficult and unstable situation. Edward Snowden is convinced that the international community can find a solution for a better internet. An internet that connects people in a peaceful way. Some may doubt if we need the internet to find peace. I prefer dancing. AND I want a free internet to connect to people all around the globe. Sure we are all connected anyway. But it feels more real in front of a computer screen. Believe it or not ;-)
Interesting that the Enn Essay and friends don’t want Glenn et al leaking their stuff, but they seem OK with their snooping on a former US President.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2014/mar/24/jimmy-carter-communications-monitored-video
If he’s not above their scrutiny …
(Hey, Mr. Current President, how will you like living with this throughout your retirement?)
If it “legal” to commit drone strikes on innocent civilians solely based on the fact that they live in another country, then the whole body of laws is suspect.
What media snobs miss:
_”Justice Scalia to Judge Napolitano: ‘NSA Stuff’ May Go to Supreme Court”_
“Justice Scalia, a guest at Brooklyn Law School for a talk on constitutional interpretation with Judge Andrew Napolitano, responded to an inquiry about….”
http://www.infowars.com/justice-scalia-to-judge-napolitano-nsa-stuff-may-go-to-supreme-court/
(via breitbart.com -> politicker.com (Observer (NYC)))
Even if it does go to the Supreme Court, the situation is so corruptible that it remains “The Govt’ is overseeing ‘The Govt.’ Its always a closed loop. It’s like being allowed to audit oneself.
Still it becomes case law that might be publicly invoked where helpful.
Thank you Mr. Greenwald. I really wish that more people would research out the information before they just believe what they hear from the pundits, or their favorite politicians. Journalism is a science that, like any other form of real science…if practiced honestly, frequently rears its head with the ugly truth for all to see. Kudos sir for all you have helped to do, and for your great writing. Real journalism is exceptionally exciting to behold! Real Democracy depends upon it!
To those who seek some measure of censorship or limitations within this comment section, please consider simply ignoring those with whom you strongly disagree, abhor, et cetera. The majority of us have been around the Internet comments block enough to know that some people are just going to post whatever they want and the best policy is to scroll past those posts. Rebut those if you must, if you have a substantive, logical rebuttal.
The Intercept might eventually develop a comment policy, although I would not want it to be too restrictive, except for deletions of the most egregious violations of commonly accepted comment protocol.
Until then, let the content of the post characterize the commenter and thereby stand as a permanent testament to his/her credibility.
Very sensible.
Yup, very sensible.
Notwithstanding the above, it is undeniable that TI’s current comment handling is desperately in need of improvement. And it really shouldn’t be too difficult to effect such improvement; the world of forum software is rich and varied.
So, why not hire a techie — if you don’t have a spare geek already ;^) — and get this mess cleaned up? It really won’t be that hard to do.
Go here and here for background and references.
Well said.
I am incredibly grateful for the comments section of this online magazine.
For those with an eye, and stomach, for seeing just how bad we humans can be, and for those brave enough to turn the spotlight on themselves, it is an excellent mirror into minds, our egos.
And for those with the wherewithall and strength to do so, it provides an excellent opportunity to find out just what is wrong, and why we can’t get past the problems we have.
This website is a repository of journalistic articles with a slant on helping us see the truth, especially in light of the systematic lies we are told by those who have come to rule us. The staff of this organization are dedicated to telling us the truth. And the provide us the opportunity to learn the truth.
And while it is true that they don’t prescribe the proper methodology by which we should absorb the truth, nor do they teach us how to discover the truth; neither are they obligated to do so. The service they provide is to feed you the information you need to discover the truth for yourself, and in some cases, to provide that truth to the best of their ability where we cannot ourselves discover it, as with classified documents leaked with specific release instructions, for example.
And how do we repay this respect for us, and how do we act towards each other in a forum dedicated to revelations of the truth, truths that affect each and every one of us in the most profound manner possible?
We treat each other like shit.
Ask yourself why? Why do you have such animosity towards others? Why do you treat others with such disregard and disrespect? Do you not recognize that we are all the same, and that treating someone else poorly means we treat ourselves poorly? After all, we are all on the same side, right? So if we treat one of our own like shit, we are treating ourselves like shit.
Let’s leave that to our lords and masters; for that is their job. We have no reason to lord over each other. Yes, I very much want to slap each and every American upside the head and force them to take the time to think about anything, about everything they do, about the consequences of their actions and attitudes. But violence is not the answer, not even in the face of violence. Ghandi was on to something there.
My ego is under control enough that, most of the time at least, I am not bothered by the ugly things people say about me, or the realization that people will believe what someone who has never even met me has to say about my character. But I have buttons too, and pushing them or pushing anyone else’s button doesn’t do anyone a damn bit of good, does it?
Shame on you, all of you, for lashing out at your fellow human being. Shame on you for failing to take the one precious opportunity you have left to save the human species, to save your own future – for failing to take the opportunity to carry on a conversation, a debate; to discuss a common threat to each of us. Shame on you as well for succumbing to the pathetic methods used by the NSA and others to alter your thoughts, to force you to think poorly of your fellow man, whom all logic dictates you are wholly and utterly interdependent with.
We have a real chance to change the world, to make it our world once again. But how can we do that if we use these boards for our personal entertainment, or to prop up our egos at the expense of others, or to lash out at those who we perceive support those whom we perceive as our enemies? How can we have a chance to unite behind a common cause, OUR common cause, if we are constantly looking for ways to harm each other and to make ourselves look and or feel better at someone else’s expense?
Edward Snowden sacrificed a great deal to bring us a bit of the truth. And Glenn and his partner, Laura, and many others have given up a lot to bring you what Edward Snowden gave them. The very least you can do is show some respect for their efforts and at the very least stay out of the way of those of us who want to know the truth, and help do something with it. Honestly, we would much rather have you helping. But if you can’t help, please at least get out of the way and let those who do want to help figure this out. We are, after all, working on your behalf.
Perhaps you might consider ceasing the activities that drive people like me to not want to help people like you anymore. And perhaps those of you sitting by and watching would be wise to interject on behalf of those who are working for your benefit who are interfered with by those who are working to your detriment, instead of letting it play out for your entertainment.
Very well said.
Rule of thumb when commenting: Keep it at 2 or 3 paragraphs, tops. Not many people are going to sit though more than that. Plus it looks like trolling, just from the sheer size of the comment.
Thank you Mike – well said.
What you need are Must Have The Last Word counts.
International Proscriptions on Mass Surveillance (or What’s Missing in the Greenwald vs. Wittes Debate)
http://justsecurity.org/2014/03/24/international-proscriptions-mass-surveillance-or-whats-missing-greenwald-vs-wittes-debate/
Apologies for the formatting glitches, lack of spaces between paragraphs. Those were not in the comment as it appeared in the tiny box I typed into. [sigh]
About the tiny box. You can click and drag the lower right hand corner to make it as large as you like. Hope this helps.
Ah ha! It sure helped me, Bill! *I don’t ask for much … but I do like to look at what I’m scribbling. :/
@ Pedinska ~
Spent a good hour or so this am looking for U.S. treaty/convention obligations, protocols (or just memorandums of understanding) re. international privacy rights … but my ‘google-Fu’ is clearly not a good as yours (h/t).
You are welcome. I stumbled on that a while back. I hate stuff on the internet that just sits there dumbly with no indication as to function. You see a lot of websites that that, a bunch of icons that do…. something.
Thank you Bill!
Thanks for the article, it’s very good. One suggestion for those interested; at the end of it, the author says:
If some of you really want to get into the nuts and bolts of the Section 702 program, go check out the PCLOB website and their panels from last week. http://www.pclob.gov/
They had 3 panels
1. Government perspective on Section 702, including TI’s favorite guy – Robert Litt
2. Academics and advocacy groups including the ACLU’s Jameel Jaffer
3. Individuals discussing Transnational and Policy Issues
If you google search, you can find each of these panels and the transcript for the first one is available on PCLOB’s website. You hear all sides of the issue and in a very detailed fashion. It’s awesome stuff if you want to know the differences between programs like PRISM and upstream collection.
Even if international law didn’t back him up, he’d still be right. It’s insane to think of people as belonging to different classes (e.g. US person vs. non-US person) possessing different sets of rights. That sort of thinking should’ve died with slavery.
Enforceability is a different matter altogether, but that shouldn’t prevent understanding of the difference between right and wrong.
It’s insane to think of people as belonging to different classes (e.g. US person vs. non-US person) possessing different sets of rights. That sort of thinking should’ve died with slavery.
Agreed. Yet still it crops up all over the place, so having a rebuttal can be useful. ;-}
I have a public service announcement to my fellow NSA-revelation junkies!
As you may have found out from Dan Froomkin’s post a few days back, there was recently a “Sources and Secrets” conference days ago that sounded really amazing. [website: http://www.sourcesandsecrets.com/
For some crazy reason, the video doesn’t appear to be posted online ANYWHERE! But I found out a couple things: (1) it was broadcast by CUNY TV (http://www.cuny.tv/SourcesAndSecrets) and 2) when i sent an e-mail to CUNY, a rep told me that they will be “airing Sources and Secrets and it will be available on our website. As soon as I have details, I’ll let you know.”
I’ll be sure to pass on any info. but keep an eye out on the cuny.tv site.
42 comments disappeared. Where did they go? When will we see them again? I’m sure it’s just a (well-known, but never fixed) glitch:
A few seconds ago: By Glenn Greenwald 23 Mar 2014, 6:41 AM EDT 392
Now: By Glenn Greenwald 23 Mar 2014, 6:41 AM EDT 350
Comments are an important part of this site.How about making up some new rules for comments?
1.comments will be limited to 50 words
2.do not reply to troll-bait
3.only 2 links, not included in 50-word limit.
Oooh, new rules! I have some:
1. Comments will be posted on the site within a few minutes after they are posted, and will not mysteriously disappear and then show up the next day. This applies to critical comments as well as favorable ones.
2. The “troll” label will be applied to those on both sides who use classic troll methods (such as using thr “troll” label to stifle legitimate criticism).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)
Trolls are usually inflammatory, and frequently off-topic.Most people are able to recognize them.
The limit is arbitrary, less words, more words, but a limit must be set, especially in the beginnings of a new site.Otherwise, we will have chaos, and that’s exactly what these trolls are hoping for.Think of them as sock-puppets.
If you like independent journalism, you won’t mind a few simple rules.
3. Comments will fare better if in verse, preferably limericks. Extra points for anybody who can make “Greenwald” rhyme with something, or if it evokes the Nantucket School of poetry.
There once was a writer named Glenn
Who said “Here’s corruption” times ten
“We must get this Greenwald”
Said Clapper (who is mean, bald)
“He’s telling folks what, why and when!”
Bravissima!
50 words seems arbitrariy small. Some people, myself included, prefer one long post as opposed to multiple bite-sized ones.
Maybe Twitter conversations would be more up your alley?
Twitter usually has a link to an article or image.
People follow those who post interesting links.
Censorship never works.
Says the inveterate commentariat-popularity contestant who thinks “I like the idea of promoting comments. ‘View highest rated’ as an option.” arrives at truth.
Promoting comments is not censorship. If you weren’t so angry and hateful you’d realize that. All I am proposing is that the comments that get the most ‘points’ would be viewable on demand. All the comments, even yours, would be there, albeit at the very bottom. But your mom could still read them. So no worries.
You have no impact here in any event.
Ars Technica has a decent comment system that uses up and down votes. If a comment gets down voted enough, it fades to gray and if it reaches a certain threshold, the comment is collapsed due to low score, but can be expanded if you want to read it. Example here http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/03/nsa-hacked-huawei-servers-watched-companys-executives-nyt-sources-say/?comments=1&unread=1
@ace
Yes, exactly what I was thinking about. That and Slashdot. One thing I would stay away from though, is the mess at Gawker. Hate their system.
I haven’t looked for the option because the system works well enough as is, but I think Ars Technica also allows you to filter out commenters you wish to ignore. Slashdot’s system is not as sophisticated. Anyhoo, just my .02 ymmv
Hi Glenn,
My comments did eventually appear. They were not visible earlier. Is there anything to retract? Am I self-victimizing because I mentioned that your comment software conveniently malfunctions to hide critical comments? I don’t know why this happened, but other commenters say that it happens frequently and has not been fixed even though you are aware of it. Is it censorship or incompetence? If a critical comment is missing from the discussion and then appears after everyone has gone to sleep, what do you call that?
I did tweet the new info, that my comments from last night are now visible. If you had anything to do with them becoming visible, then I thank you, otherwise I thank the the apparently incompetent coders who wrote the malfunctioning software that you use to manage comments.
One of your typical attacks on critics is to claim that a substantive criticism is not substantive. My criticism that you are hiding 99% of the documents from everyone but a privileged few and that they should have been (and still should be) released is substantive. My criticism that you and Snowden are talking shit about Manning and his “indiscriminate” dump of documents to the public is substantive. These criticisms have been levelled by several writers who are better (and better known) than me, including Tarzie and Arthur Silber (one of the great writers of our time, and a man whom you used to support and link to before you became so concerned about “national security”), and you have NEVER responded in any way other than making excuses and attacking your critics with the help of your zombie army of mindless Glenn-bot supporters. I used to be one of your biggest fans before you started hiding secrets on behalf of the NatSec state and then sold out to the highest bidder. You started out attacking the status quo, but now you represent the status quo. That is why I am criticizing you. You are willing to question anyone but yourself and your “team” (which now includes billionaire Pierre Omidyar). I am willing to question everyone including myself and my “team.” If Arthur says something stupid tomorrow, I will call him on it. If Barrett Brown starts advocating the hiding of information from the public, I will criticize him just like I am criticizing you. If I say something wrong or stupid, I sincerely hope that my friends and fellow seekers will let me know. Your evasions, attacks and excuses tell me that I’m on the right track.
http://ohtarzie.wordpress.com/2013/10/25/another-snowden-news-story-another-lesson-in-proper-whistleblowing/
http://powerofnarrative.blogspot.com/2014/03/edward-snowden-tattletale.html
http://powerofnarrative.blogspot.com/2014/03/in-which-our-self-proclaimed-hero.html
Quoting otarzie is like quoting Goebbels or a barking junkyard dog. You left out Sibel woo de de doo doo Edmonds. Your “Glenn Greenwald must be destroyed” talking points are in good order otherwise.
A minor blogger is like Goebbels? In what way? Did Tarzie kill his 6 children and then commit suicide when I wasn’t looking? Or is it because he’s a frustrated novelist, like Goebbels was before he became a prominent Nazi? Bill Owen, in accordance with Godwin’s law, please retire in disgrace.
Considering the US has declared that cyber attacks are an act of war that it is justifiable to retaliate with with conventional weapons, I would think it would be in the public interest to know that they are now at war with China. Better to find out now, then when a copied f-35 drops a bomb on their house.
When documents are made public to the American people they are not always reported in full. Why do you consider yourselves above the public by choosing which documents should be viewed by we the people?
Why do you consider yourselves above the public by choosing which documents should be viewed by we the people?
Asked and answered (ad nauseam):
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/03/01/journalistic-independence/#comment-7196
Also here:
http://utdocuments.blogspot.com.br/2013/12/questionsresponses-for-journalists.html
Excerpt from the latter:
They’re running documents by the USG and other “government stakeholders.” In other words, whitewashing them.
“Fearless and adversarial?” Sounds more like collusion.
@Oboe Who makes this same false unsupported unfounded accusation at every opportunity. I prefer a broken record.
Those are Snowden’s words. Are you saying that Greenwuld and the others aren’t doing that?
Your words are not Snowden’s words. They are yours.
Greenwald and other publishers ask the associated government agency(s) for comments on a specific article. If the government responds with a comment that passes muster, then they may modify an article. Glenn has stated multiple times that he ignores 99% of the government’s responses. Please note that the standard government response is “everything we do is authorized”.
@Lauren: In what way were “documents made public to the American people”? The fact is that Edward Snowden entrusted the documents he copied from the NSA to Glenn Greenwald and Laura Poitras. He didn’t give them to the public or “we the people”. He gave them to journalists he trusted would do right by his desire to have a public discourse on the rightful balance between national security needs and privacy rights.
Glenn, Laura, Barton, and others are publishing the Snowden documents and providing context and explanation so we understand the document(s). Even though I’m the technical type, I benefit from the technical, legal, political, privacy, etc., insight they provide that accompanies each Snowden document that they publish. In no way would I want them to do a document dump. I can assimilate the documents a bite at a time. I would drown with a document dump.
Why don’t you just publish the documents?
You would not have a clue as to what most of them mean for one thing.
The posting software changed the cyrillic name of a bankrolled 1917 leftist Russian movement into question marks.
The posting software changed the cyrillic of “Bolshevik” into “?????????.”
There are definitely things that are not going through to the comments output on this site. Multiple times, in reply branch and at top. I invite other
readers to submit text that fully defines by spelling out, for example:
1a. Name of active U.S. Senator (prefix-appended with [English translation of “Kontrollpunkt”)], along with adjective progressive-leftist combined with
[English translation of “?????????”] who promoted a No Ride list for [name of America’s national railway], in 2011, along with a link to Reuters’s reporting of it.
The senator was mentioned by Titonwon in a post below.
1b. Find one of many photograph on the web of that Democratic senator gleefully holding some hardware at a firing range, and include a link to it in your
comment. (He’s also a CCP holder.)
2. On YouTube, dig up two trailers for a film that was made by Joel Gilbert about the current Executive Branch officeholder (one of them invokes a relationship with a Hawaii communist). Write the links into your comment with the titles of what you found, and try submitting that.
Madness.
Shades don’t impart courage to self-styled badasses, Bill; they won’t improve your condition. You’re still a garrulous, popularity seeking dork.
Says the multi year troll. Yawn.
http://www.pakalertpress.com/2014/03/23/feinsteins-bill-to-kill-free-speech-of-independent-journalists-has-votes-to-pass-senate/
This is the same bill Chuck Schumer is all giggly about, ain’t it, Glenn?
Your thoughts?
Anyone who labels our Congressional Constituional Deconstructionists stupid has not been paying attention. Sure, there will always be useful idjits like the “You lie!” ass and the bumbling fumblers on the democratic side of the sinkhole, but the rotting cream that has risen to the top over time didn’t do it by being anyone’s useful stooges. They are fullblown members in good standing – no matter the letter at the end of their title – of the protectionariate tasked with making sure their power never does anything but grow and consolidate.
These fuckers need to be removed from office and prosecuted for lying through their file-pointed teeth when they swore to uphold and defend the Constitution.
See my comment elsewhere as to how the old classic cases Lovell v. City of Griffin and Near v. Minnesota forbid prior restraint, limitation of press freedom to particular media (e.g., effective press licensing) or punishment based on content. However, if this law is aimed at particular people — Schumer names Greenwald — then the lawsuit to overturn this law should invoke the Bill of Attainder clause as well.
See Cal. Evidence Code § 1070 for a more typical shield law.
http://firstamendmentcoalition.org/resources-2/news-gathering/california-shield-law/
– – –
“The liberty of the press is not confined to newspapers and periodicals. It necessarily embraces pamphlets and leaflets. These indeed have been historic weapons in the defense of liberty, as the pamphlets of Thomas Paine and others in our own history abundantly attest. The press, in its historic connotation, comprehends every sort of publication which affords a vehicle of information and opinion.”
— Hughes, C.J., Lovell v. City of Griffin, 303 U.S. 444 (1938)
– – –
“The statute is directed not simply at the circulation of scandalous and defamatory statements with regard to private citizens, but at the continued publication by newspapers and periodicals of charges against public officers of corruption, malfeasance in office, or serious neglect of duty. Such charges, by their very nature, create a public scandal. They are scandalous and defamatory within the meaning of the statute, which has its normal operation in relation to publications dealing prominently and chiefly with the alleged derelictions of public officers.”
— Hughes, C.J., Near v. Minnesota, 283 U.S. 697 (1931)
– – –
“If the First Amendment will protect a scumbag like me, then it will protect all of you. For I’m the worst. — Larry Flynt
Very valuable and hopeful case law information. May freedom of speech and the press last “until the twelfth of never”. Thanks. Songs by Johnny Mathis are some of my favorites.
I watched the movie on Larry Flynt’s fight to protect his freedom of speech/press. Woody Harrelson (Larry) and Courtney Love were great.
All blessed thy be unto law, oh fortress of sublime humor and interpretation of crap nobody else has time for. I smoke pot in your general direction and I mean that in a good way, amigo.
Always good to learn from you. Peace.
The crazies and trolls are winning. This comment section is almost unreadable, mainly because of extremely long comments written by nutcases or trolls—or nutcase trolls—followed by a long string of injured responses, aka troll food. At a certain point—I think at the second feature-length comment by Mike Wolf, which, like his first immense contribution, is about the amazing and gifted Mike Wolf—I gave up.
The quality of comments plays a role in whether or not a first-time visitor returns to a site. I’m afraid that newcomers here are going to come away with the impression that we’re a bunch of loonies.
And that’s exactly why a few are here- to disrupt and obfuscate. I see you CraigSummers!
You can’t blame Craig Summers for the replies he gets.
Oh yeah? His long assed screeds have been reputed so many times it’s not even funny anymore- more like pathetic- like your defense of him/her. I can smell an asstro-turfer from a mile off.
Nobody spends that much time spreading bullshit unless they’re gettin’ paid money, honey. :)
I wasn’t defending Craig Summers. Obviously. I was limiting his responsibility to the comments that he writes on the top level. He can’t be blamed for the replies he gets. And if he gets a reply, he has every right to reply in turn without being accused of disruption. No one is forced to engage him.
So, if you believe that a particular commenter is here only to disrupt, and you believe that he’s succeeding, then you must also blame those who reply to him. You must convince them of the commenter’s intentions, and convince them that the commenter should be ignored. You may not be able to convince everyone.
That’s my personal take on this issue. You may agree or disagree as you see fit, Titonwan.
@Totonwan: I agree with your statement (see quote below) on most of the trolls that frequent here. My list of sitewide trolls/disrupters is now at nine. I’ve been feeding some recently – much fun. I’ll try to stop feeding them so they starve or leave here for greener pastures.
“Nobody spends that much time spreading bullshit unless they’re gettin’ paid money, honey”.
How about limiting comments as to length?
Look at nyt and The Guardian.
nyt seems not to attract ‘crazies’ and The Guardian seems to have solved its problem.Then, again, it no longer has Glenn.
Is Glenn a troll-magnet?
Is the NSA involved in this?
My answer: Glenn is a NSA troll magnet. The NSA hates Glenn almost as much as they hate Edward Snowden. Whenever, one or the other speaks or writes, the national security sociopaths jump and shout like a cage full of monkeys. They can’t stand to have someone expose their lies and not be able to throw them in jail for forever.
And, no doubt, getting paid for trolling. Your tax dollars in action.
I like the idea of promoting comments. “View highest rated” as an option. We are not going to solve the troll problem or the cognitive disruptor problem anytime soon.
Titonwon,
I think Checkpoint Charlie Schumer is the progressive-left’s predictable Bolshevik who promoted this:
_”Sen. Schumer proposes “no-ride list” for Amtrak trains“_
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/08/us-security-trains-idUSTRE7472CF20110508
And advocates self-defense for he, but not for thee:
http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=1543762
This one should be of special interest to The Intercept Staff:
http://www.thedailysheeple.com/obamas-backdoor-censorship-of-the-internet_032014
Yet more censorship at this link:
http://www.pakalertpress.com/2014/03/23/feinsteins-bill-to-kill-free-speech-of-independent-journalists-has-votes-to-pass-senate/
To David Mark :
Well said.
Miscellaneous:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/10717566/Aborted-babies-incinerated-to-heat-UK-hospitals.html
This just in- “Brainless individuals ground up for fertilizer”.
Oh if it was only true. My tomatoes would do great with squaresville peat moss.
My tomatoes would do great with squaresville peat moss.
Fish heads are better but the damn raccoons dig them – and your tomato plants – up no matter how deep you plant them.
You want a backdoor to China??? Plant fish heads a mile or so deep. :-s
I have my tomatoes, strawberries, etc, under lights right now. It feels weird though since it was -28 with the wind chill this AM and meter deep snow everywhere!
I have my tomatoes under lights too. Oh wait, thems ain’t maters!
I’ve got 6 kinds of ‘maters, 6 kinds of peppers, okra, zinnias and several other pollinator attractors all under lights. Fiding to start transplanting any day now.
You guys should come to my plant swap at the end of April. ;-}
I would but Bill and Titonwan are probably going to be there.
Greenwald defines “adversarial press”:
“Watchdog”, “sceptical” – these are the same words I chose for my little comment on “adversarial press” (and government transparency):
I read Greenwald’s definition as a validation of my point. All I’m suggesting is that the word “adversarial” might not function as effectively in the area of journalism and it does in litigation (in which the adversarial nature of the proceedings is apparent).
What percentage of the public can be expected to understand “adversarial” as it is defined in Greenwald’s first sentence? How many people are instead going to simply (unthinkingly) interpret the word by its root meaning – adverse, hostile, opposed? This is what gives Robert Litt an opening to say, “There ought to be an adversarial approach between the press and the government. But, it’s a two-way process.” If the press is, by its nature, opposed to the government, then, indeed, why wouldn’t the government be expected to actively oppose the press? My comment was that in neither direction is the appropriate posture “adversarial” in the ordinary sense of the word. Maybe a better word can be found.
“What percentage of the public can be expected to understand “adversarial” as it is defined…”
It’s not a dumbing-down of the actual definition of what an adversarial press already is and is supposed to be that we need – it’s that the general public needs to be taught and shown what an adversarial press actually is and does.
The general public doesn’t know this because the main stream media has been dumbed-down for too long.
That’s what sites like this and reporters like this are for – to reeducate the general public on what the press’s role should be in the public realm.
Educate your mates – and keep supporting and sharing the adversarial reporting that goes on here.
“It’s not a dumbing-down of the actual definition of what an adversarial press already is and is supposed to be that we need”
Nowhere in my comment do I propose a change in the definition of “adversarial press” or in the understanding of what the press “is supposed to be”. Greenwald’s definition is fine. Maybe it’s perfect. I’m only pointing out a problem with the word “adversarial” as part of the label for that definition. And it’s a serious problem if it gives someone the opportunity to make the statement that Litt did, and if that statement sounds reasonable to people. And I think it will sound reasonable. It does sound reasonable. I think that Litt has revealed a flaw in the term “adversarial press”. That’s what I’m writing about.
I understand and agree with this, however I think that the solution to the problem is reeducating the public, and not framing the discussion on what others want it to be.
And I agree that the opposition will always try to mince your words to make their point yours, and vice-versa, and they’ll be able to sound reasonable to many folks when they do it – but in the end it pays to keep the same message rather than get caught up in the word play.
The answer: more voices saying the same things over and over again..until it sinks in.
Take it from the Bush/Cheney team – it works, whether it’s lies or not.
In this case we’re fine – we just have to keep talking with a unified voice and message, and stop parsing it out to the extent that the original message becomes too muddled for anyone to understand at all.
“And I agree that the opposition will always try to mince your words to make their point yours, and vice-versa, and they’ll be able to sound reasonable to many folks when they do it – but in the end it pays to keep the same message rather than get caught up in the word play.”
We almost agree. Close enough to let it go. But, once again, I’m not saying the message should be changed; I’m suggesting that the same message — the definition, and the proper relationship between government and the press — might be more clearly expressed, more effectively conveyed, with a different word. And if no better word can be found, I still think there’s value in pointing out the problem that Litt has exploited (if there is one).
And if we were to choose different language to express the same message, that’s not a capitulation. Only the message is important. In the case of political discussions (and in general), words only exist for their meanings. When addressing the general public, it is entirely appropriate to use the simplest and clearest language possible. (Imo, Greenwald actually does this.) The challenge is to do so without compromising the message.
“Adversarial press” is a label for a concept. If that’s the best label that can be found, then fine. If a better one can be found, there’s no reason why it shouldn’t be used. The same is true of any label. Any term.
Totally agree. It goes hand in hand with the idea posited here that it isn’t the messenger that matters – but the message.
And by the way barncat – thanks for adding to the discussion with a the succinct and thoughtful reply; it’s very much appreciated.
Regards, Sillyputty
“And by the way barncat – thanks for adding to the discussion with a the succinct and thoughtful reply; it’s very much appreciated.”
Same to you, Sillyputty. It was a pleasure.
A funny (perhaps) and provocative view shared by Bill Maher on the power of language and framing policies so that more progressive voters “get it.”
The cited part starts at about 2:30 into the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=9rRLoTbKDa0
Glenn defines “adversarial press” as:
“An adversarial press means that it views its function as a watchdog over the Government, as a check on its power. It fulfills that function by viewing Government statements and actions skeptically and with the intent to scrutinize them and determine their truth, rather than mindlessly convey what the Government asserts. It means that there is a difference between a free press and Pravda”.
His definition is three (3) sentences long, not one (1). I have no difficulty with the government, another entity, or individual scrutinizing journalistic articles to determine their truth. I do have difficulty with the government constantly saying articles or claims are false and to “trust them”. Whenever, which seems to be 99% of the time, they say something is false, and then they hide behind their “states secrets” excuse.
They have stacked the deck in their favor such that there is no possible means to determine if they can be trusted on anything they claim. So far, they have been exposed as pathological liars.
“His definition is three (3) sentences long, not one (1).”
In your reply to me, you omitted the first sentence of Greenwald’s quote. If you look at the full quote again, I think you’ll agree that it contains two definitions: In the first sentence he defines “adversarial process” to indicate how he wants “adversarial” to be understood in “adversarial press”. He then proceeds to define “adversarial press”. And so my paragraph begins: “What percentage of the public can be expected to understand ‘adversarial’ as it is defined in Greenwald’s first sentence?” Etc.
Good try. But no.
Hey Glenn
What do you think about this article?–
Chuck Schumer, Author Of Media Shield Bill: It’s ‘Probably Not Enough’ To Protect Glenn Greenwald
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/21/chuck-schumer-glenn-greenwald_n_5008524.html?utm_hp_ref=new-york&ir=New+York
Thanks in advance.
I believe Law Makers know very little about actual law. There are so many conflicting laws on the books.
Oh they know, alright. That’s how they know how to skirt it.
I want Glenn’s take on this.
I think Checkpoint Charlie Schumer is the progressive left’s predictably identical Bolshevik who promoted this:
_”Sen. Schumer proposes “no-ride list” for Amtrak trains“_
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/08/us-security-trains-idUSTRE7472CF20110508
And has no problem with self-defense for he, but not for thee:
http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=1543762
It’s a news-medium-licensing law, in effect, and as such is a violation of the First Amendment. You’d think that the phrase, “Congress shall make no law … abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press …”, Schumer did swear an oath to that Constitution. If this passes, any news organization feeling threatened should sue. They can point to the old law-school classic rulings in Near v. Minnesota and Lovell v. Griffin.
“We think that the ordinance is invalid on its face. Whatever the motive which induced its adoption, its character is such that it strikes at the very foundation of the freedom of the press by subjecting it to license and censorship. The struggle for the freedom of the press was primarily directed against the power of the licensor.” — Hughes, C.J., for the majority, Lovell v. City of Griffin, 303 U.S. 444 (1938)
– – –
f we cut through mere details of procedure, the operation and effect of the statute, in substance, is that public authorities may bring the owner or publisher of a newspaper or periodical before a judge upon a charge of conducting a business of publishing scandalous and defamatory matter — in particular, that the matter consists of charges against public officers of official dereliction — and, unless the owner or publisher is able and disposed to bring competent evidence to satisfy the judge that the charges are true and are published with good motives and for justifiable ends, his newspaper or periodical is suppressed and further publication is made punishable as a contempt. This is of the essence of censorship. — Near v. Minnesota, 283 US 697 (1931)
All people of the world have unalienable rights, some of which are mentioned in The Bill of Rights. The Declaration of Independence acknowledges “all men are created equal”.
>> Even more extreme: are American journalists (and whistleblowers like Snowden) supposed to keep the public ignorant of anything and everything the US Government does to people provided those people aren’t blessed with American citizenship?
Why report on the rights of women or black people until they gained the right to vote?
Any argument that the U.S. does not engage in economic espionage and sabotage of foreign competitors’ products is belied by this particular story. Irrespective of whether, or not, Huawei and ZTE products are infected with P.L.A. introduced spyware and malware, it has become blatantly obvious that they are now infected with N.S.A. introduced spyware and malware. Just as foreign IT system operators will shy away from American developed hardware and software, due to a well founded suspicion of N.S.A. corruption, now they will tend to avoid Huawei and ZTE products for the very same reason.
Cui Bono (Who benefits?)? Certainly not the U.S. developed hardware and software producers, and now due to the actions of the N.S.A. in corrupting Huawei and ZTE products, or at least giving the impression that they have been corrupted, only non-American and non-Chinese developers will benefit. Where does one go to obtain uncorrupted hardware and software products, at least until the N.S.A. corrupts them? Most likely Europe, specifically Germany.
N.S.A. corruption of the U.S. cloud industry will reportedly cost U.S. developers and businesses around $160 Billion over the next decade. Solely for the purposes of perpetuating economic sabotage, the N.S.A. has now tainted the integrity and reputation of Chinese competitors’ products. This will now undoubtedly lead to a Sino-American trade war in which each party disparages the products of the other. Is this an act of desperation by the world’s most dominant economy to hamstring the one about to overtake it in the coming decades? The answer to this question should be obvious!
Valuable insight. Thanks.
While reading this piece, as often happens with your articles (and happens almost universally when reading everyone else’s), there were several moments where I felt like there were cracks developing in the argument. Where you had perhaps zigged when zagging was the right course of action.
In each instance, I begin to prepare a counter-argument. Upon returning to the piece to make sure I have the context correct, and reading a bit further, it turns out that you have already addressed the potential cracks head-on, and that you have done so not by spackling across the top and filling in the gaps from above, but from below, by solidifying the underlying framework in a way that tends to fill the gaps as natural, logical consequences.
There is really only one word to convey my sentiments.
Bravo.
By the way, is there a print edition of this publication? I haven’t ordered home delivery of a magazine or newspaper in many, many years, since I tend not to value their existence and I loathe their inevitable dusty collection, but in this case I think I would welcome the opportunity to publicly demonstrate my support, while possibly giving visitors an artificially inflated sense of my own intelligence. Certainly a win/win situation. Of course it couldn’t possibly be a regularly timed publication with a mandated number of stories in each edition. That is not the way legitimate news develops and is a significant part of the reason that modern journalism is such a deeply wounded, dying animal. But that too could possibly make it more exciting. Is there a new edition in the mailbox today? Not today. How unfortunate. Perhaps tomorrow.
Or it could simply be a regularly timed printing of the unprinted online articles at a given time. Basically just a physical archiving of the digital content. I imagine that the level of folks you tend to work with could produce some impressive printed output. It would be of utmost importance though that the Intercept journalists keep their focus very specifically on their proper roles as journalists to avoid an overall degradation of product by stretching everyone too thin.
There. I have officially gone on too long and rambled too far afield. I thank you again for your work and I bid you good day.
Any person who thinks you are able to trust another person is not realistic in their idea of what is called loyalty, this is of importance with a training within the secret service, in particular the secret service, in relation to thinking you would trust journalists, what is wrong with Snowden? to trust? however, his public service is commendable, the issues the public need to focus on is, the secret service throughout the world, has one commitment, the service to the 1%, or should I say the %01? the psyche of the secret service, is its obstinate pathological obsession with being slaves to this minority, is a danger to humanity.
Glenn I’m pretty impressed you read the comments and also replied to them. I tried reading some of the comments but my attention span is rather limited once people begin to babble.
Thanks for the great articles you and your colleagues have written. These important articles highlight the need for some real effort to be put into implementing improved IT security, more debate and education about personal IT security, and the undermining of security standards by state sponsored operatives. Even worse is the intrusion into the lives and privacy of millions, the attitude of anything goes, and the belief of absolute power from those employed to serve the public interest – NOT to shape and define it. If there was not still some “free press” then these issues would simply not be discussed.
Having worked in computer security for a long time, I’ve been appalled at the lagging skills and knowledge by the public against the rapid evolution of technology, and just what’s on offer to help the public keep up with developments. Many businesses don’t fair any better, with computer and IT security often coming a long last to any other priorities and only being implemented after a severe breach and attack on resources or infrastructure. Once systems are better secured it’s not long before they are again made vulnerable by users or managers for convenience’s sake. The idea that IT security should be some secretive domain left to the “Nerds” is obviously not working. Instead some kind of Sci-Fi inspired, government backed corporate surveillance nightmare looks to be the future, and it’s already well under way.
Weren’t there some “terroists” at the bottom of the garden the “intelligence” apparatus was supposed to be after, before they launched their crusade for a massive expansion of their own power with huge financial spin-offs for their ex-colleagues in the private sector and a gold paved retirement plan. It would seem the later has now become the objective.
This bunch of “US Journalists Against Transparency” are hilarious.
They must hate Obama very much for promising to bring transparency to the the government.
Thanks Glenn for taking the time to show the truth about this demented group.
“It makes sense that US government officials view the world this way: their function is to advance the self-perceived interests of the US government, but that’s not the role of actual journalists or whistleblowers”.
Thanks Mr. Greenwald for calling out yet another layer of hypocrisy, deceit, propaganda and collusion between corrupt government and equally hopelessly corrupt main stream reporting.
@Benito Mussolini
Revealing secrets is drunk driving.
A media shield law will determine who the designated drivers are.
Report Responsibly…We all get home safe.
Craig fucking Summers.
*eye roll*
Mr. Summers is a tough nut to crack PI.
*I ain’t no Fortunate Son … http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XZJWrR0XYM
The signs that the system is fraying are too numerous and dispiriting to enumerate, but of all of them the most worrisome is the way the fourth estate has turned on its own journalists. When all three of the other estates collapse into each other, the one pillar that should hold is a robust, objective, engaged press.
This article demonstrates in the details how hollow their claims ring. Seriously, the NYTs is going to criticize how a source hands off material and nitpick or outright misrepresent key points of the NSA story? What is preventing it from diving into the story and taking it seriously enough to cover it on its own? It’s as if, having missed the breaking story, the editors have turned their collective back on the whole thing. If it isn’t “our creature” we’ll ignore it or mock the efforts of those who have been covering it brilliantly. Pathetic and dangerous attitude.
Glenn, and a small but growing band of journalists have their backs to the bulwark, but it can’t hold if others don’t join them.
Very good points, Morning’s Minion. I get this same attitude from reading the articles at Pando and other sources regarding The Intercept. I don’t stop reading them, because differing views are needed to get a balanced picture.
With that said it is very much like what we’ve seen when watching the repetitive process over the years of progressives tear each other apart (see the posts of ‘Kitt’ and ‘CraigSummers’ on here for examples), all while ignoring the fact that, in the end, it will come down to ‘united we stand, divided we fall.’
Regards, Sillyputty
You’re such a phony. I don’t know what label Craig Summers fits under, maybe Post or Rock, but whatever it is it sure as hell isn’t “progressive” by any standard that I have ever read from anyone. And labeling me as a “progressive”, at least by the standards you are apparently using to come by your labels, puts me in line with Moveon.org. And, as I’ve made abundantly clear to you, I despise Moveon.org for their Democratic Party insider gaming.
You’re either addicted to lying about me or you are stunningly incapable of assessing someone’s basic position based on their actual writings.
Kitt, by progressive I mean anyone who wants to move forward rather than backwards with regards to civil liberties and regaining or acquiring a functioning democracy – and despite yours and CraigSummers idiosyncratic comments, I’ve labeled you both as such, try as hard as you might to remove it.
And honestly, aren’t you self-assured enough not to care what some essentially anonymous blogger labels you in the first place?
For whatever reason you keep feeling that you are being personally attacked and you are not; I’m simply attacking your position, which I still feel is a progressive one.
Regarding your obsession with MoveOn: it and other groups and entities (Ms.Flowers, you, me, CraigSummers, The Intercept, et al.) who are all a part of the process of this change are what I would call progressive, in that they seek to end the status quo in the areas mentioned above, and move away from the police state paradigm that is already here, are into which we are sinking deeper.
That you continue to blather about which box you fit in and what label you have or even care what label I have assigned you is your problem, not mine.
My points remain these:
Unless and until the “silent majority” can all get on the same page on these fundamental issues, it will be, as it has been predominantly for the past 40 years, nothing but cat fights among writers and pundits who actually, and ironically, are essentially on the same side.
So Kitt, if indeed you are against the idea of an effective representational government that is powered by the many, not the by the few, then yes, I guess we are not on the same page at all.
By the way, and for just one example of you not responding to a specific question: just exactly what page is it that you are on?
S for me, I’m more interested in moving forward – and as I’ve stated all along, it’s the nonsensical bickering among those that actually are moving in the same general direction that will determine if these efforts are successful or not.
So, why not spend your efforts speaking specifically about the TPP, the Patriot Act, the NSA, CIA, FBI surveillance state, and the many other immediate and tangible threats to our democracy, and just ignore the fact that some might think your progressive or broad-minded at all.
In the end, you should just get over it and continue writing your thoughts; like others here I’ll be adversarial towards them as I expect you to be towards mine – but I won’t buy into the idea that it is I that creates and defines your positions here – that’s your job, not mine.
You use your labels however you see fit. But, if even by your definition, there is something progressive about Craig Summers I don’t know what it is: This is Craig Summers positions based on his comments: ‘All war all the time is fine with him’ — All surveillance all the time is fine with him’ — Obama’s Terror Tuesdays, which are the okie-dokie for whomever falls under a drone bomb…anywhere in the world is fine with him — Even if they are an American citizen is fine with him — And so on. So you and Craig Summers should throw a cocktail party together someday and celebrate your progressive efforts at “regaining or acquiring a functioning democracy.” It’s okay if you don’t invite me to your party. I’ll understand.
Well Kitt,
You’ve done it.
You have completely proved your inability to form a cogent argument that has facts that can be refuted.
You have completely not answered any of the specific questions asked of you about this lack of accountability for your weak and, honestly, baffling assertions, and you have proven that your only counter argument is, in the end, to kill the messenger.
You’ve left me no choice then, but to rely on a wordsmith greater than I to express the extreme disappointment you’ve shown in your inability to carry on a debate:
~ Christopher Hitchens
Best Regards,
Sillyputty
@sillyputty
What “messenger?” You think that you make points which require some “cogent argument, but, shit, just look at what I’ve quoted from you. What a self absorbed mess.
Your previous point was that Craig Summers is a progressive. I gave you a bunch of examples of the tenor of his comment posts. I don’t care if you call him a “progressive” or not. But my examples of his posts is who he is. That is, if “the messenger” has any meaning to you besides someone to “kill”or not “kill.”
Kitt, please read what I wrote and not what you think I wrote.
I keep asking both you and CraigSummers to state your specific positions on things and get nowhere.
So I then supplied my definition of what I think progressive is:
By that definition, I think that both you and CraigSummers are progressive. But hey, I could be wrong.
Then I asked if that is what your respective positions were, and received no coherent response from either of you.
Honestly, it’s a simple question. And if your answer needs further refining, by all means, please provide it here.
So Kitt, are you someone who wants to move forward rather than backwards with regards to civil liberties and regaining a functioning democracy?
Yes or no?
Good points about how this is the editorial choices. The NYT and others like to set their games of misinformation and propaganda and spin going. As if they did not know of the abuses up in NY. It is their version of damage control. It is probably better for intelligent people to accept all of this at face value because what other choice makes much sense?
I would guess that the Chinese government and other intelligence services and goons had a pretty good idea already that these systems were being hacked. They are also tracing and watching we will assume. This undercuts the US from lecturing others and it will require defensive stances and may increase retaliatory actions. The current state of US hypocrisy is rather obvious.
The problem is that this is all not good for industries and their customers to have the confidence and a standard for privacy and respect for basic human rights while existing in the digital world. Asymmetrical knowledge gives one side advantage and everybody knows it and states can and do fall into abusive behavior against their citizens or foreigners. The US only makes up less than 5% of the world’s population and rational people will not just endlessly sign on to this nonsense.
Paul Carr on Omidyar’s visits to the White House.
http://pando.com/2014/03/23/revealed-visitor-logs-show-full-extent-of-pierre-and-pamela-omidyars-cozy-white-house-ties/
Ooh, now there’s some hard-hitting investigative reporting. ;^)
The billionaire who’s funding Glenn’s startup has typical billionaire connections with the DC establishment. Quelle surprise!
Be sure to let us know if and when you have even a hint of evidence that The Intercept’s journalistic integrity has been compromised by the guy with the money. I’m not going to hold my breath, because the chances of Greenwald, Scahill, Poitras and the gang letting such a thing happen are slim and none.
Seriously, can you imagine Glenn agreeing to spike a story, or soft-pedal or spin coverage to please the boss?
So far I’ve been very grateful for Greenwald’s work. But there’s plenty of reason to be suspicious. I always thought the names ‘First Look’ and ‘Intercept’ seem like a tongue in cheek way of saying this media has been vetted by the proper authority.
@holy cow: “suspicious”, “tongue in cheek” You lost me on this one. What are some of the “plenty of reasons”? How did you make a connection between FirstLook and Intercept and “vetted by the proper authority”?
Well, vetting a story would require having a first look at the info you might want to intercept. And as for plenty of reason, the funding here should be subjected to every degree of scrutiny imaginable. A quick search would would explain why. The statements made by Omidyar and his colleagues in the past raise concerns. But like Greenwald said, such is the nature of this business.
Would it be too much trouble for you to share? Or do you expect us to search the Internet (even “quickly”) trying to figure out why you think what you do?
Sorry Doug, it looks like I can’t respond to your post directly for some reason. But yes, there has been concern enough for Greenwald to respond (“On the Meaning of Journalistic Independence”). If you have any desire to look for yourself, look into Omidyar’s past treatment/opinion of wikileaks, whistleblowers, etc. His usual partners are even less encouraging.
Like I said, it is a reason for concern and not a reason to condemn. I welcome your disbelief. If you can’t find what I’m referring to, I’ll give you links. But I really don’t think it’s necessary given all the coverage.
*your post didn’t have a reply link, but looks like I figured it out.
@holy cow: “Well, vetting a story would require having a first look at the info you might want to intercept”.
Wowee, you certainly have a talent for stringing words together. The strung-together sentence doesn’t make any sense re your original comment but, heck, you already knew that.
@Jim Moore
You say
“The strung-together sentence doesn’t make any sense re your original comment”
From my original post: I always thought the names ‘First Look’ and ‘Intercept’ seem like a tongue in cheek way of saying this media has been vetted by the proper authority.
What the heck are you talking about??? Please sit on it, as the Fonzie would say.
I’m suspicious that you are suspicious.
#foolsgame
@holy cow
So far I’ve been very grateful for Greenwald’s work. But there’s plenty of reason to be suspicious.
Does the fact that Congress is creating so-called “Media Shield Laws” which specifically keep Greenwald vulnerable assuage your concern at all?
After all, if he’s doing such a spot-on job for his masters, why would they want to put him in a cell and remove him from continuing to propagandize for them?
aka the “stop Greenwald and those like him” bill. The truth will make you unfree!
I was being reasonable so please stop being ridiculous. You make it seem as if I was promoting some conspiracy that encompasses the entire govt, his masters. That is more than a bit loony, no?
It’s not just what Omidyar has said in the past, or that his companies once posed as adversaries for leakers, or that PayPal co-founder Max Levchin said some hysterically alarming things to Charlie Rose.
—
“I wanted to work for the NSA”
“I just fundamentally trust the national security establishment to… spy on the things that need spying”
“Nation Security Agency is there to make sure we don’t have another 9/11″
http://charlierose.com/watch/60248643
—
It’s that PayPal and eBay, like all American tech/net companies, have credibility gaps because of their work with the NSA which was exposed by this coverage. There is plenty of reason to be suspicious. Like I said, so far I have been very happy with the coverage. But I’ll keep this apparent conflict of interest in mind and always consider the critics so I can continue reaffirming my decision to be very grateful for Greenwald’s work.
You make it seem as if I was promoting some conspiracy that encompasses the entire govt, his masters.
No but you do bring this into it, without supplying any evidence at all that it will have bearing on how Greenwald reports:
It’s that PayPal and eBay, like all American tech/net companies, have credibility gaps because of their work with the NSA which was exposed by this coverage. There is plenty of reason to be suspicious.
PayPal and eBay’s credibility gaps have nothing to do with Greenwald’s reporting or the credibility he has exhibited with it to date, unless you have something to point to other than your evidence-free suspicions.
@Pedinska
Suspisions are evidence-free. Please give me an example of one that isn’t.
The eBay and PayPal credibility gaps have $millions of reasons to be considered about. I’m having a hard time finding much more reasons to respond to you. Have a nice day :)
Well I suppose the alternative is to not have this site at all, and no reporting on thios sort of thing. So yeah I think it should be shut down, it’s rubbish isn’t it.
Doug, there’s also that Glenn has never struck some of us as particularly curious or proactive or adventurous or motivated to learn much about the world he lives in. He seems contented to opine about a limited, narrow scope of material that can be effortlessly accessed from almost anywhere.
Then much later on, someone who’s impressed by GGs prolific compositional skills, and the audience he draws for it, sees fit to use that venue to introduce the public to his own small universe. Now Glenn’s restyled as NSA Man. And we’ll never hear the end of it.
Interesting article and comments. Reading Paul Carr’s articles on Omidyar, Firstlook, The Intercept, and/or Greenwald always leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Isn’t revenge supposed to be sweet? I guess that Paul Carr is the only one that experiences the sweetness. A reader just gets the bad taste.
I’ll be prepared the next time that I follow a link to the Pando.com site. I’ll have a glass of Koolaid close at hand so I can enjoy a sip while I read another of Paul Carr’s articles on Glenn Greenwald’s fall from grace.
Personally, as a journo, I’d be honored to work for the Intercept as an intern. Pando… hmm… I’d consider a job with that outfit, if I was running out of money, and desperate – and had holes in my credibility.
And a drug habit to feed.
What’s the deal with Carr, who squeaks at Greenwald just about everyday on twitter, and publishes article after article of ‘dumb-de-dumb-dumb’ stories that are supposedly about Greenwald chooses not to address him by name in this article? Does Glenn Greenwald, the “Chief editorial recruiter,” have close ties to the white House? Is there “any sniff” that Glenn Greenwald has “close ties to the White House?”
Frankly, it’s one thing to make serious critical assessments, but Paul Carr is just being an anal, irrelevant jerk. He’s actually using the infamous Fox News “Just asking” ploy.
@Oboe…..reading that was….disheartening. What a huge betrayal it would be if GG and Co were actually just controlled opposition all this time? :(
@enslaved: “What a huge betrayal it would be if GG and Co were actually” Santa Claus and his elves. It seems that this is just as possible as your claim “just controlled opposition all this time”.
I wouldn’t worry about this. If Obama were to call Omidyar about a story, I’m certain we’ll first learn about it here at The Intercept.
This guy Paul Carr seems to be obsessed with Glenn Greenwald, Omidyar, First Look, the handling of the Snowden material, etc. I looked through his past publishing history, and my conclusion is that his obsession is not political. But he does write a lot about new media and old media, and what it all means. He’s the editorial director at Pando, and was previously the founder and editor in chief of NSFWCORP. Quite clearly, he feels threatened by First Look. This tells me First Look must be doing something right.
I agree. I also spent some time learning what I could about Pando.com and Paul Carr since I was unfamiliar with both until I followed some links included in comments here on the Intercept.
I decided that he was, as you stated, very worried about the dwindling competitiveness of his Pando website in light of Glenn (and Laura and Jerry) being given free rein by Omidyar/Firstlook to build The Intercept, an independent fact-based news organization for the world community and one that would not bow down to the powers that be.
Additionally, it seemed to me that much of Paul Carr’s recent writing is directed at Glenn Greenwald and/or his employer, Omidyar, and is motivated by his wanting revenge. A few years ago, based on a critique by Glenn, he and his boss apologized for an error-filled article he had written. It appears, from his articles, that he has “had it in” for Glenn ever since. It seems like he has given up on directly trying to “savage” Glenn with falsity, and is now trying to smear Glenn with guilt by association. His approach mirrors arguments based on the dogma of “original sin”.
regardless of whether you agree or disagree with Pando’s guilty by association style of reporting, that picture of Omidyar frolicking across the WH lawn is pretty fantastic.
@Nate: Please provide a link to “that picture of Omidyar frolicking across the WH lawn”. Thanks.
I enjoy frolicking in public or privately. How about you?
It’s part of the Pando article.
http://pando.com/2014/03/23/revealed-visitor-logs-show-full-extent-of-pierre-and-pamela-omidyars-cozy-white-house-ties/
@Nate: So a picture for you is a cartoon. Thanks for sharing.
I’m surprised that Paul Carr, the author of the article, who is obsessed with “stalking” Omidyar, FirstLook, The Intercept, and Glenn Greenwald, didn’t show his cartoon character frolicking naked. I guess even Paul can’t yet stoop that low. Give him time – I’m confident that he won’t disappoint.
“The Disappearance of Flight 370: One of the most important events ever.”
“They don’t know where it is already. Whatever you were thinking the Man was capable of, think again. Flight 370 shows us that the capabilities of Big Brother are highly exaggerated.”
scienceblogs com
/gregladen/2014/03/21/the-disappearance-of-flight-370-one-of-the-most-important-events-ever/
How does the disappearance of Flight 370 have anything to do with the NSA (and GCHQ) mass surveillance of people and corporations? When people are in an airplane miles from land with their electronics such as cell phones unable to function, how do you expect the NSA (and GCHQ) mass surveillance apparatus to function? Access to the Internet is also not viable unless a passenger carried on board the specialized electronics needed to connect via satellites. A possibility yes, but a likely probability no.
I can understand using satellites to look for “ocean” debris that may be from the missing plane. However, I don’t view this as doing mass surveillance (spying) of people and corporations.
Yeah I agree, I think that blog posy is nuts. That’s why I brought it here :)
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2014/03/21/the-disappearance-of-flight-370-one-of-the-most-important-events-ever
Have a look at the whole thing.
It’s a ridiculous argument: They are not omniscient, so we’re good.
It crashed in the Pacific. The NSA is not interested in tracking aircraft. The Pacific is big and a plane is small. The event is utterly meaningless.
Try telling him that. He tries to make the point in a fairly long post.
No, it wound up in the Indian Ocean, according to the latest stories. Or somewhere in the uncharted waters yet unexplored. Flight 370 began as a routine flight, but made an unscheduled landing, in the Twilight Zone. (closing credits)
Now back to the Glenn Greenwald Show after our commercial break.
Indian Ocean. Yes, thanks. A great big body of water in any event.
According to Greg Laden at scienceblogs, the disappearance of flight 370 is “one of the most important things ever.”
“They don’t know where it is already. Whatever you were thinking the Man was capable of, think again. Flight 370 shows us that the capabilities of Big Brother are highly exaggerated.”
It’s about one of the silliest thins ever.
scienceblogs dot com /gregladen/2014/03/21/the-disappearance-of-flight-370-one-of-the-most-important-events-ever/
That the corporate media tools of the State support their crimes should be no surprise to anybody.
I should probably point out a couple of things for the benefit of those who have read my comments and failed to understand them completely.
First and foremost is, I do not think like an American because I have deprived myself of nearly all influence by American culture. I do not watch television, listen to the radio, subject myself to advertising on the internet or elsewhere, do not watch movies, do not read non-fiction, do not watch the news, do not read American newspapers as a source of factual information, do not take anything any scientific journal, article, or scientist suggest as fact without verifying it, and most certainly do not take what anyone tells me as fact until I verify it for myself.
Do I make mistakes? Yes. I did suffer brain damage which primarily affected my ability to recall and to articulate my thoughts. I can’t correct that except with lots of editing, which isn’t practical on this forum.
Primarily I have to assume there is interest into my presumed insight into Edward Snowden. I have this insight because I read a Wikipedia article and supporting documentation, and did something few Americans do anymore, reasoned and thought about the theories. Not only did I study and learn Kohlberg’s theories on Moral Reasoning, I have since made significant changes to them; though I have not published them for review yet.
My insight into Edward Snowden is limited to his state of development of his moral reasoning, according to the theories put forward by Kohlberg which I have independently verified – and again found mostly factual, but did add to the theory. My intelligence manifests as broad understanding rather than concentrated knowledge; but also in reasoning, especially deductive reasoning (for you zombies, that’s what Sherlock Holmes does…)
Simply examing the decision Edward Snowden made, and more importantly, his rationale behind it, you too can know what Edward Snowden’s stage of development of moral reasoning is. Clearly he acted without regard to laws or rules, but did act with regard to social contract. He stated his reasons were that it was better than the people know what is going on than not, and the law stipulates that the people should not know. Edward Snowden proved himself to be post-conventional in his moral reasoning.
I reason at post-conventional levels as well. In fact, Edward Snowden rather stole my spotlight – at least, a spotlight was what I needed to accomplish what I had hoped to accomplish, which Edward Snowden has accomplished in what I have to acknowledge is almost certainly a more effective way to get the message out; though the messages are a bit different (if he understood what I do, I imagine he too would be as surprised at how awful this country really is when I started reading about the documents he harvested and handed over to journalists.)
And that is also how I know that Edward Snowden is both not at universal ethics, and unaware of moral reasoning. My intent in outing the United States as an evil empire is something I was going to do completely on my own. My plan, which is well documented for those who doubt me, was to sail to Sweden via the North Pole – which of course would have been a world record. My intent was to show the world a thing or two they need to understand about what scientists call “global warming,” which I would have accomplished by being the first person in world history to sail to the north pole (it’s always been covered by ice, thus the record would be important because it would have been possible for the first time.) When I arrived in Sweden, I was to apply for International Protection, and show them all of the legal and other documentation I have which proves how horrible social workers are towards the disabled in this nation, and which also documented an incident I have since come to understand was almost certainly the result of these very NSA programs.
In other words, I was going to see this through, personally. Why? Because in my experiences, I have yet to come across another person who actively reasons at universal ethics. Where there is money involved, universal ethics is impossible. And psychologists are not even capable of detecting someone at universal ethics because the Heinz Dilemma is limited to stage 5. My answer to the Heinz Dilemma is that the scenario should not even be possible because in an equitable society, money wouldn’t exist and no one would be exploited, and we should have an equitable society and can if we only work towards our potential – which is to reason at universal ethics – all of us.
As for my opinions and theories on history, they are based on my understanding of human history, which is based on my discovery of what I believe and hope to prove is a disease which has fundamentally altered the entirety of human history and is now the sole cause of all human strife, conflict, and which is already known about, but grossly misunderstood. My theories can be found in this draft of a paper I am attempting to write and eventually publish: http://www.wolveswolveswolves.org/moralreasoning/DevelopmentalDisorderImpactingHumanSocialEvolution.htm
Finally, I do come off as a bit of a nutcase. That is strategic. If the NSA believes I’m a nutcase, they will not take me seriously. But I am extremely serious when it comes to helping my fellow inhabitants of earth whom I am hopelessly and eternally dependent upon for my happiness, well being, and survival. And that means that everything I do, every word I write, every minute of video I record, is dedicated to solving the problems I believe I can help solve. So, let the NSA think I am a nutcase who thinks everyone is zombies. But the fact is, I can prove that a disease called psychopathy has turned some people into what can best be described as zombies, and these people, because of a combination of numerous factors, became leaders and have shaped our world. The greatest example I can give you is Adam Smith. Here is an obvious psychopath, and who wrote the book on the modern economy, literally?
So, when I speak of the forming of the United States of America as just an opportunity for rich assholes to exploit people, I speak of the underlying intent that made the events culminate in a revolution, declaration of independence, and the annexation of the United States by the colonial revolutionaries – to jab a bit at Obama and his media lackeys (or rather, cheerleader-reporters).
And when I write about World War II, I write about what I came to understand through understanding psychopathy, as well as what happened with PsyOps and the German propaganda machine. Do your own research, and maybe you too will come to understand that propaganda was “captured” by America and turned against the American people. And maybe you too can come to understand that the reason we joined the war, was so we could crash the party and take home the cake.
I don’t think I’m special or anything of the sort. But I do think, and I know that makes me different. I don’t just accept what journalists or politicians, or what anyone else tells me as fact. I consider their statements and then go out and verify them if I feel they warrant verification.
I have gifts that I feel obligated to share, which is a large reason why I contribute, and feel I should. I am highly intelligent, gifted in being able to figure things out quite easily. I taught myself a programming language that launched a lucrative career, in just four days. At age 19 I managed a print shop and tripled the gross receipts in just two months. And I recently began work on revamping the lift theory, as Bernulli and Euler both have it wrong. My accomplishments that you can verify include my amicus briefs on CV-0077-JWM, the wolf delisting case, as well as Documents 568, 569, and 583 on the Perry v. Schwarzennegar case (Proposition 8) in California where I was the first to forward the argument that such bans violate the Establishment Clause.
I comment here because I believe I have something to add. I also believe myself to be a part of this larger story, and will contribute to it where I believe I can be helpful in doing so.
I am trying to discipline myself to ignore anyone who addresses me in comments. I don’t mean to be rude, but I believe it distracts people from the message, and it certainly distracts me from what I believe the purpose fo the comments section is for – a gauge of the extremes of public opinion. Only the most passionate believers and detractors will comment, so reading what the comments have to say gives me an idea of how the world is reacting to these stories. In fact, much of my research that formed the basis of the paper linked above was through continuous monitoring of comments and forums.
Anyway, sorry to take up so much real estate. I’m not trying to take more than my share of space; as there seems to be infinite space. No, I’m just trying to communicate my complete thoughts sufficient to convey enough understanding that people don’t freak out and think I’m some mental case or NSA troll.
Also, I posted this to encourage others to post for noble reasons as well.
How about a break?
“Finally, I do come off as a bit of a nutcase. ”
Actually most folks tolerate benevolent “nutcases” well.
It is your unabashed egocentricity which acts as a repellent.
Count the number of times that you use the word “I”.
Someone who is truly concerned regarding the welfare of humanity and Planet Earth, would not assume that others are at all interested in their personal accomplishments.
“I am trying to discipline myself to ignore anyone who addresses me in comments.”
God forbid that other humans would dare to comment on your lengthy, self-righteous, egocentric epics!
Respectfully, any person that can form complete and understandable sentences on any internet blog does not deserve to be mocked. Look around you – less than half here can even form an argument or counter an argument based on the facts presented in the posts that they themselves are participating in.
There’s plenty of real estate here, and for those who don’t want to read a particular post, well, expend the few calories it takes to scroll down a bit, in order to get a view that’s more acceptable to you.
Peace.
I find the quality of arguments here is considerably better than in most other sites. Have you ever been to CNN or Yahoo, for example?
Jose, I also find that the overall quality of arguments here is considerably better than on most other sites.
If your reply was addressed specifically to me, then no, I haven’t been to the sites you mentioned for quite some time, and for the reason that you mention – the blog posters are undecipherable; and also because I’ve found that the “reporting” is too incredibly biased and commercialized, and no longer worth reading anymore.
As an aside to the Intercept Staff – thanks for this site and the reporting and analysis done here – it’s very welcome and long over due.
Regards, Sillyputty
“Respectfully, any person that can form complete and understandable sentences on any internet blog does not deserve to be mocked.”
As this individual is entitled to write epic epistles in the comments section; other individuals are entitled to respond honestly regarding the content. There was no intent to “mock” anyone although my rhetoric could be described as scathingly blunt.
“There’s plenty of real estate here, and for those who don’t want to read a particular post, well, expend the few calories it takes to scroll down a bit, in order to get a view that’s more acceptable to you.”
Sorry Silly Putty but when one has to use the wheel to scroll pages to reach a “more acceptable view” the preceding comment was in my opinion, too long.
Lyra1,
Censorship, then, has now been reduced to the amount of effort needed to scroll the wheel on a mouse?
Scathingly blunt your observations may be – remarkably intelligent they are not.
Sillyputty:
You’re entitled to your opinion.
@SillyPutty: I, for one, thought that Lyra1’s comments, although frank, were not mocking but an honest response to Mike Wolf’s “epic” and ego confirming comment. Lyra1’s response, IMHO, was not censorship, just critical, and necessarily so.
@Jim Moore,
Thanks for sharing, but I feel that anytime someone needs to resort to derision, e.g., “most folks tolerate benevolent “nutcases”” – (read: according to Lyra1, Mike’s unbenevolent); and “your unabashed egocentricity which acts as a repellent,” (well if that actually is the case Lyra1 should stay away and not read his comments); and “Count the number of times that you use the word “I…..” Well, first of all, apparently Lyra1’s not repelled enough, or, ironically, just repelled enough to mock Mike.
And then we see Lyra1 go on scolding Mike, saying that he should realize that in no way are “others…at all interested in [his] personal accomplishments,” and, “God forbid that other humans would dare to comment on your lengthy, self-righteous, egocentric epics!”
So in the end, Lyra1, not mockingly at all now, mind you, goes on to comment on a post that Lyra1 found to be:
1) Cruel (Unbenevolent)
2) Without regard to the feelings of others (Egocentric)
3) Revolting, repulsive, repugnant, objectionable (Repellent)
I call bullshit that Lyra1’s reply wasn’t mocking, and also say that it was completely self-serving and unnecessary.
Lyra1 could have used any number of words to express that Lyra1 thought the post was too long and off topic, but instead Lyra1 had to hurl invectives to get the point across.
Or, Lyra1 could have just moved along and went the extra few rolls of the mouse wheel to get where Lyra1 wanted to go.
Not only is what Lyra1 did most certainly mocking, it’s also childish as well. Grow the hell up.
Ah yes….
Bow down to the almighty one! An entity which sees all and knows all has entered the comments section of the The Intercept.
Have you been appointed “The Moderator” of The Intercept? If so, you have the option to delete my comments.
Get a grip Sillyputty!
My viewpoints are my opinions just as yours are yours. I am not trying to censure you and you have no right to attempt to censure me.
Frankly….I don’t care what you think.
My original comment stands as written.
@SillyPutty: I just reread Mike Wolf’s “epic” comment and Lyra1’s response. I don’t agree with your analysis of Lyra1’s response and your conclusions. Everything in Lyra1″s response follows from a thorough reading of Mike’s comment, and is totally defensible.
Thank you Jim Moore.
Just getting back to this.
Alas…SillyPutty is still looking for her head.
Probably a rectal insertion.
Thank you Jim – although you’ve brought no new information to the table, you are very well mannered in doing so.
With that said, I’ll just redeposit and stand behind what I’ve already said about Lyra1’s post in question:
“Thanks for sharing, but I feel that anytime someone needs to resort to derision, e.g., “most folks tolerate benevolent “nutcases”” – (read: according to Lyra1, Mike’s unbenevolent); and “your unabashed egocentricity which acts as a repellent,” (well if that actually is the case Lyra1 should stay away and not read his comments); and “Count the number of times that you use the word “I…..” Well, first of all, apparently Lyra1’s not repelled enough, or, ironically, just repelled enough to mock Mike.
And then we see Lyra1 go on scolding Mike, saying that he should realize that in no way are “others…at all interested in [his] personal accomplishments,” and, “God forbid that other humans would dare to comment on your lengthy, self-righteous, egocentric epics!”
So in the end, Lyra1, not mockingly at all now, mind you, goes on to comment on a post that Lyra1 found to be:
1) Cruel (Unbenevolent)
2) Without regard to the feelings of others (Egocentric)
3) Revolting, repulsive, repugnant, objectionable (Repellent)
I call bullshit that Lyra1’s reply wasn’t mocking, and also say that it was completely self-serving and unnecessary.
Lyra1 could have used any number of words to express that Lyra1 thought the post was too long and off topic, but instead Lyra1 had to hurl invectives to get the point across.
Or, Lyra1 could have just moved along and went the extra few rolls of the mouse wheel to get where Lyra1 wanted to go.
Not only is what Lyra1 did most certainly mocking, it’s also childish as well. Grow the hell up”
Jim, I really respect that you do not resort to simply killing the messenger in any explanations that I’ve read where you disagree with something – it’s refreshing and should be practiced more on here.
Regards, Sillyputty
“My original comment stands as written.”
As do mine. That you still think condescension equals rebuttal, or that opinions carry equal weight simply because they are opinions and because everyone has a right to have one epitomizes the lazy thinking of your comments.
My interest is not in censuring anyone – I will, however, call out lazy thinking, hypocrisy, high-mindedness, rudeness, mockery, derision, and cognitive dissonance each and every time I see it – and I expect others will extend the same courtesy to me.
And in closing, Lyra1, you too have earned the award, albeit from a better wordsmith than I, who notes that:
~ Christopher Hitchens
Best regards, Sillyputty
The grand literary giant and expert analyst has spoken again from the self-appointed throne of judgement.
Look….why don’t you just say that any opinion which does not concur with your own is not valid?
Perhaps your just irritated because I won’t bow down to your imperial thought rules….Or, maybe you are just angry because you have fallen victim to a con-artist spewing psycho-babble, and I have not.
Don’t blame me for your mistakes.
Just get over it. The fate of the world is not hinging on my comments or yours.
There is no need to argue. Yes I am stupid, evil scum not fit to walk the Earth.
As I sit in my darkened, vacuous hovel only the glow of my monitor, and the small, wood-burning fire —-complete with tripod and simmering cauldron—–provide solace to my tortured spirit. Within this holy, blacked pot I have placed my most precious ingredients, to brew the most powerful potion. While this is formulating I will summon my host of “familiars” which includes a pack (6) of two-headed canines and numerous black , six-toed felines. Fortunately there is still time to go out and dance wantonly in utter abandonment under the heavenly light of the moon; where I will call upon ancient gods of the underworld. It is they who will give my potion the power to wreck utter havoc on all who oppose me. Ah….but the night is still young.
There. Are you happy now.?
Oh…by the way… in the process of overlooking comments, rest-assured that yours are number one on my list.
My interest is not in censuring anyone – I will, however, call out lazy thinking, hypocrisy, high-mindedness, rudeness, mockery, derision, and cognitive dissonance each and every time I see it – and I expect others will extend the same courtesy to me.
~ Christopher Hitchens
Best regards, Sillyputty
@ Titonwan
I suggest just copying their comment (or a segment thereof)- blockquote it- and just put it up at top. It worked over at Salon and I don’t like these nested comments, anyway!
What goes around, comes around again. Works for me and seems like a reasonable approach until things settle into a reliable pattern. I also liked the way comments were handled at Salon. You didn’t need to worry about missing a response as long as you continued reading from where you left off, not that it wouldn’t have been nice to miss a few here and there. ;-}
Good to see you too darlin’. :-)
I’m glad to see that my warnings about a free press are gradually being taken seriously. People are slowly awakening to the fact that many journalists have interpreted ‘free’ to mean ‘free to publish anything you please’. But with freedom comes responsibility and it is irresponsible to say or publish things that will cause harm to your fellow citizens, damage national security or undermine the morale of the workers.
My modest proposal is as follows:
1. The government should license journalists (as they do other professionals) who have demonstrated their sensitivity to national security concerns, and who have a proven track record with an established journalistic organization of responsible reporting. I’m proud this is already being contemplated under the Shield Act.
2. The government (who, unlike unelected journalists, represents the will of the people), should be free to sanction any journalist who behaves irresponsibly with an appropriate prison sentence. It would not be necessary to invoke this punishment very often, just occasionally in high profile cases, to act as an example to the others. I’m pleased that senior US officials are already discussing this very thing.
When these long overdue measures are finally implemented, the US will finally be able to enjoy the rewards of a ‘responsible press’, which is what the founders, had education been better in the eighteenth century, would have wanted.
Benito,
Mein liber Freund….
Sie haben mein Herz, aber Ich bin sicher, sie jest.
Es lebe das Reich!
Licensing journalists would be a violation of our Constitutional right to “Freedom of the Press.”
If the government in the gatekeeper, then we will no longer have a free press. You said reporters should, “have demonstrated their sensitivity to national security concerns.” Since it is the government who would decide on the definition of “sensitivity” and “who behaves irresponsibly,” they would most certainly include Snowden’s documents, and incarcerate employees of NYT and WP for having published them.
It appears that Benito Mussolini just passed the Poe test.
This young pup Poe takes a universal truth and creates a bogus law, pretending it is an internet phenomenom.
I created a parody of a politician; in 1921 I was elected to the Chamber of Deputies.
I then created a parody of a political march – the March on Rome ; I was appointed Prime Minister.
In 1938 I created a parody of a military rank, First Marshal of the Empire; I awarded it to myself.
People have never been able to distinguish between parody and reality – because there is no difference.
It’s still true, universality and puppishness aside. Unless you are familiar with a particular posters history, attitude, etc., then sarcasm is indeed indistinguishable from a sincere remark.
You should commemorate, il mio Duce, the one you proclaimed as your Giovanni il Baptiste, Gabrielle d’Annanunzio. He was the herald. His fame was known to us even here in Casablanca; unoccupied France would have welcomed him.
I thnk the same is true of most forms of licensing. You have the freedom to peaceably assemble BUT…you have to purchase permission from the government and they may deny it. This turns a right into a privilege which can be given or denied.
Indeed, Ben, and as a former newspaper editor yourself I believe you’d know. As to your proposal, such licensing already exists in various countries; in the US they could make it even more arduous by turning it over to agencies already used to making people stand in long lines, e.g., the California Department of Motor Vehicles.
As for sanctions, it need not be overt censorship. It could be “soft censorship” (see current Economist magazine), such as, say, gov’t party advertising in the Serbian elections going to favored media. Or it could be certain zoning or building-use permits going to a UK-style Office of Circumlocution (see Dickens, Little Dorrit).
Or you could see to it that the public in, say, the US is so under-educated they would tune in to Fox and leave the tiny literate minority to watch Bill Moyers on very minor channels and be free to stew, freely.
Arturo Bocchini! You were always a moderating influence on me. Your advice is excellent as always.
Grazie mille!
Do, everybody, study the Byzantine, labyrinthine wonder of governance, the Office of Circumlocution.
http://www.panarchy.org/dickens/circumlocution.html
“Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!”
That it is necessary for you to have to make these points, again & again, suggests just how close we are to becoming a nation of useful fools the any fascist leader willing to push his/her agenda with sufficient force. Absent people like yourself, your associates at the Intercept, Chis Hedges, and a few dozen others, shining like Hedge’s proverbial ‘points of light in the darkness’ we’d be in one hell of fix. Thanks.
I must take issue with the claim:
‘It’s untenable to claim that bulk surveillance has been democratically ratified given that almost all Americans, even most members of Congress, were completely unaware that any of this was happening until we reported it. One can’t reasonably claim that a government program which almost nobody knew about has been democratically approved.”
Everyone who was paying attention to the news and to congressional activity since the announcement of Total Information Awareness over a decade ago knows about everything the NSA and Darpa were developing. The first crack at getting a budget for TIA was rejected, only to be approved later, in pieces, buried in other large onmibus bills. Congress has no excuse to say they didn’t know this was happening. Journalists have no excuse to say they didn’t know this was happening. And anyone who thinks Snowden has revealed anything new simply hasn’t been following what been publicly stated on the Darpa site, on reputable security blogs, and elsewhere.
Americans, like Germans after WW2, are incredibly good at feigning ignorance about things that everyone really knows about but is afraid to talk about publicly.
NSA mass surveillance, and many of its techniques, have been an ‘open secret’ for years. The vulnerabilities in unencrypted online communications have been known for many years. We’ve known that the NSA had a program to develop these capabilities, and we’ve known that they were likely to succeed. Previous NSA leaks, and general updates from various security analysts and hacker blogs kept us aware of roughly what the evolving capabilities were.
What Snowden did, really, was to ignite conversation so that society can no longer turn a blind eye to it. How can it be treason to reveal what was already in the public domain? The only thing that is new in the Snowden documents is the silly names the NSA gave to each of their programs. Most of the NSA’s technical capabilities were already known, or at least suspected, including problems with Tor exit nodes, encryption standards, software and hardware backdoors, VPNs, browser vulnerabilities, OS vulnerabilities, and the list goes on. You have to remember that the NSA recruits the very same people who attend hacker conferences. By reading the proceedings of these conferences you get a good idea of what NSA, including their TAO unit is likely to be capable of.
It’s time we, as a society, stopped acting surprised and indignant, take responsibility for our willful ‘ignorance’, and get on with the business of undoing this insane surveillance infrastructure. If we fail to stand up to our representatives in a meaningful way, you can guarantee that the nanny state sure won’t remove it for us.
Meanwhile, it turns out Omidyar has visited the White House.. a lot. http://pando.com/2014/03/23/revealed-visitor-logs-show-full-extent-of-pierre-and-pamela-omidyars-cozy-white-house-ties/ He gave $10M only 3 years ago http://www.omidyar.com/about_us/news/2010/05/27/omidyar-network-pledges-10-million-white-house-social-innovation-fund
I wish I was reading these words of yours, Glenn, from a website not funded by someone in love with the present Administration, to be frank.
A blogger at ScienceBlogs believes that
“Flight 370 shows us that the capabilities of Big Brother are highly exaggerated.”
According to him, the disappearance of flight 370 is “one of the most important things ever” because it shows us this exaggeration.
It might be one of the dumbest, weirdest, and maybe funniest things ever.
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2014/03/21/the-disappearance-of-flight-370-one-of-the-most-important-events-ever
Since when did journalists decide what the public can handle? Disclose all the documents ES stole so the public can decide what to think instead of a few selected journalists deciding for us.
Respect.
Is there a problem with the comments? Some of my comments are visible, and some aren’t. Earlier there were 254 comments and now there are 216. Is it just me, or are others seeing comments disappear?
I haven’t seen any of my comments disappear or not be posted since joining the discussions on February 10.
Most times, my comment appears within a few seconds. When I grow impatient waiting for a comment, I refresh the page and it is usually there. Occasionally, I have to refresh multiple times before my comment appears.
It was worse in the first few weeks, but still happens. Comments don’t show up sometimes without refreshing page, or show up as new comment instead of a reply.
For a while, comments would appear, then disappear, and then appear again.
Glenn – you consider this issue from the wrong end of the telescope.
In thew course of doing so, you defend the indefensible.
The real issue is not the exercise of editorial judgment by outlets like the NY Times and where the “balance” of the public interest lies.
The real issue is why ALL the Snowden documents are not available to the public.
I find your focus all the more disturbing given your mention of Wikileaks, while you simultaneously undermine and criticize the Wikileaks disclosure model.
Glenn has provided many logical, rational, legal, and common sense reasons for not following the Wikileaks model of dumping all the Snowden documents on the Internet all at once and letting everyone have a go at them. For me, his reasons are very convincing. Why are you having difficulty in accepting the very reasonable arguments given by Glenn?
And to be clear, not even Wikileaks dumped all documents at once, with no redactions whatsoever.
“Dump it all” trolling is becoming a frequent type of trolling here at The Intercept, and I frankly find it suspect.
Are you nuts?
How much work and talent is needed to write a solid article on these topics.
We are lying to ourselves & if all the docs were out there the oligarchs could attack Snowen & Greenwald and others as traitors & they would know what to respond to. The 9month story, which has not yet even done the biggest story which has already shown that the capabilities are more than Stasi in Eastern Germany and they will go after people who expose the illegal behavior.
The Wikileaks disclosure model evolved over time. The earliest and most idealistic model was simply to make a cache of documents available on the internet, that anyone was free to examine.
But there were some shortcomings to this model. First is the practical aspect of making sense of large numbers of documents. Most people don’t have time or inclination to browse through thousands of documents in order to discern patterns or links between the documents and other publicly known facts. So the model was modified – the documents were provided to journalistic partners, who did the research on the raw material and then published stories summarizing their findings. Wikileaks then placed the relevant source documents supporting these stories on its own website, so that readers of a story could verify the source material themselves.
There was also the problem that some source documents potentially contain information, which if known, could cause harm to people – innocent or otherwise. So Wikileaks offered (in the case of the State Department cables) the raw documents to the US government before publishing, so they could indicate if anything should be redacted. The US government refused, but Wikileaks then took it upon themselves to redact certain information. This ran somewhat against their stated ideals, and so from what I have read, was a bit controversial within the organization.
In the case of the State Department cables, the encrypted files became distributed outside Wikileaks, and the encryption key was published by one of the reporting partners. Wikileaks realized that names in the documents were potentially widely known. They therefore decided to make the documents fully available, so that anyone could determine if they were named in the documents and take measures to protect themselves. However, if full publication of all unredacted source documents was not Wikileaks original plan, then it shouldn’t be called the ‘Wikileaks Model’.
There are several lessons to be learned from Wikileaks’ experience. One obviously is to choose your publishing partners very carefully. But the main difference is a tactical one. If you are publishing material that is embarrassing to a relatively powerful organization such as the US government, you must take steps to protect yourself. Wikileaks was a key part of the journalistic process, but it was much easier for the US government to attack than established journalism organizations such as the New York Times and the Washington Post. Cutting off credit and electronic payments to Wikileaks caused relatively little public protest. This is not Wikileaks fault, but Snowden made a pragmatic decision to approach selected and trustworthy journalists directly, rather than using an intermediary.
So Wikileaks was a trail blazer in demonstrating that direct access to source documents could free journalists from being subservient to government and having to beg officials in positions of power for scraps of information in order to publish their stories.
Finally, just because Glenn Greenwald states that Snowden has used a different method than Wikileaks in disseminating his information about the NSA, that does not mean that he is disparaging or diminishing what Wikileaks accomplished.
If that’s “the issue,” you demonstrate remarkably little interest in the reasons, which I laid out in this very column explicitly and in detail.
Are you in favor of having us violate our agreement with our source, disregard his intentions with the documents, and subject him to a wide array of legal and other dangers he has not chosen to undertake for himself?
If so, have the intellectual honesty to advocate that explicitly.
Glenn asks:
“Are you in favor of having us violate our agreement with our source, disregard his intentions with the documents, and subject him to a wide array of legal and other dangers he has not chosen to undertake for himself?”
Glenn, are you now saying that Snowden imposed conditions on the release of the info? I was under the impression that Snowden delegated editorial and publication of document decisions to your judgment as a professional public interest journalist. Is my impression accurate?
On multiple occasions, you have defended your own selective publication, as based in journalistic standards and the public interest. Are you now saying that none of that is really true, it’s all about honoring conditions imposed by your source, Snowden?
On multiple occasions, you have defended your own personal journalistic independence. Are you now saying that you are not really a free agent, that your sources can impose conditions?
Talk about intellectual honesty!
With all the respect due your comment: you’re either completely ignorant or an abject liar. I have said from the start that we are bound by the agreement Snowden insisted on – which was against full publication of all documents. I have cited multiple cases where Snowden himself, as well as through journalists and his own lawyer, has said this. And I explained it at length (with links) in this very post.
Pretending that it’s just something I asserted for the first time is what makes me characterize your comment as I did above.
Well, I am glad we have one point clear: your unconditional repeated statements purporting to be a free agent and independent journalist are not accurate, and are qualified by agreements you each with sources.
I don’t liar, but am ignorant of many things.
But one thing I can see, and that is contradictions. Sorry if noting them hurts.
I often agree to conditions from sources, but that’s because I receive that information in my capacity as a whistleblower protection organization, to a professional journalist, who’s first durty should be to truth and full disclosure.
Given my employment, I freckly admit that my first duty is to the source, not to the truth or the public.
But Glenn pretends to have it both ways.
Grade 6 argument.
#realworld
Bill Owen – sorry I don’t meet your academic standards – I tried to make a 9th grade argument in reply to Glenn’s question above.
Glenn, thank you for pointing out that Snowden released “zero” documents to the public. That, along with his shit-talking about Manning, is why I don’t trust him, nor you, nor your billionaire benefactor.
Glenn, thank you for pointing out that Snowden released “zero” documents to the public. That, along with his shit-talking about Manning, is why I don’t trust him, nor you, nor your billionaire benefactor.
We’re all trying really hard to match the brave, intrepid, oh-so-radical risk-taking of Albert Meyer – which is shaking the CIA, the NSA and the Pentagon down to its frightened foundation – but really, that’s such a high bar to clear that it’s unfair to ask anyone to live up to it.
Instead, we’re just doing our best.
Glenn – do you know Mr. Meyer? If not, is the sole asia of your attack grounded in his comment?
That is pathetic.
BTW, what did you think of Snowden’s remarks on the TED interview that the first amendment was designed to allow government and the media to cooperate to inform the american people?
Do you agree with that?
I found it profoundly misinformed and a little creepy.
Are you the same Bill Wolfe who earlier made a plea that the comment section not be used for discussion, only to comment on the article?
Oh, that was Mike Wolf….unlike us ‘taters, it’s pretty hard to tell you wolves apart.
so reply to my question – do you agree with Snowden’s remarks I paraphrase?
I haven’t listened to the Ted talk, but I can address what you wrote.
In general terms, freedom implies the press is not restricted to either a cooperative role or an adversarial one. Snowden, given his actions, presumably values the right of the press to oppose government policy. In that light, his statement that the First Amendment also allows the government and media to cooperate appears to represent a balanced perspective. Cooperation may often be appropriate, providing it is not coerced. So I’m not sure why you say his remarks are ‘misinformed and a little creepy’.
Or he might be taking the more abstract point of view that in a system of government designed based on checks and balances, an adversarial press acting as a check on government, is in fact cooperating by obliging the government to consider alternative points of view when it formulates its policies. In a parliamentary system, this concept expresses itself in the form of the ‘loyal opposition’, whose role is to oblige the government to create more robust policies. This concept seems to be falling into disfavor, as principled opposition gives way to simple obstruction.
Glenn – repeating a comment that seems to have disappeared:
Do you know this man you attack? Is your attack based only on his comment? If so, that reeks.
BTW, did you see Snowden’s interview on TED? If so, what do you think of his remarks to the effect that the first amendment was designed to allow government and the media to cooperate to inform the american people?
I found that profoundly wrong and a little creepy.
Glenn, thanks for the ad hominem attack. This is your typical response to criticism, and it means that you have no real response. If you have a real response to my criticism, let’s hear it.
Glenn’s reply to you was not ad hominem; he didn’t say you were wrong because, say, you’re stupid.
No, he was disdainfully sarcastic, which is precisely the answer you merit.
BTW, not sure that reply is really Glenn. His avi is missing, and he knows how to blockquote quotes.
Good point. But later down he has a reply to Nate where is avi is missing, but that reply very much reads like Glenn definitely wrote it.
It was – not sure why the avi is gone. Just another joy of this software.
You offered no substantive criticisms or, for that matter, substantive ideas of any kind.
Instead, you simply announced your list of people you have decreed as suspect.
If you want a substantive reply, you should try next time saying something of actual substance.
I love that you came here to pronounce me “suspect” with no accompanying rationale, and now complain that you are not being treated with the respect and substantive engagement that you deserve.
I also trust that you will retract your self-victimizing claims that your critical comments here were so incriminating and scathing that we deleted them and censored you?
In case you missed the discussion, WordPress uses “gravatars”, stupid name I know.
If you go there and upload an avatar, it should show up. I changed my “gravatar” to confirm this and they are definitely coming from there.
http://en.gravatar.com/
My response to Glenn’s comment above has not showed up an hour later. Lots of other comments have showed up during that hour, including other comments of mine. Just a glitch I guess… no need to bother fixing it.
I do not speak for Glenn G, but you have my sympathies with your dislikes, especially how your manage them. A dislike is a distate or hostile emotion (Oxford). How you manage it by willingly and knowingly subjecting yourself to an environment where you must know that you are most likely to have it aroused, truly speaks to your genius of how to nurture negativity. Best to you.
Trolls, Trolls, Trolls, Lies, Lies, Lies. Even going so far as to enter Glenn’s name when making a troll comment.
I’ll be pleased when the Intercept requires registration as a prereq for commenting. Registration may lessen the number of trolls, and trolls identifying themselves as other commenters, even Glenn.
I’ve heard of trash talking, even had some directed my way when I played league basketball. Your term is one that I’m unfamiliar with. Please point me to the talking by Snowden directed at Manning source(s) so I and others will have the proper context.
Seconded
Don’t trust analyze.
But learn to use logic first.
Thanks!
I was a bit vexed on whether I thought this story should or should not be published. On one hand, it does shed light on the hypocrisy of the U.S. But on the other hand, I don’t see this leak as very beneficial to the interests of the U.S. One could clearly make a legitimate argument that it is in the world’s best interests but Snowden always gave the impression that the U.S. Constitution was his guiding light so I am struggling to see how this is, in his words, “legitimately in the public interest.” Who is the public? Everybody, including the U.S.’ adversaries? At the end of the day, I am glad this particular story is out in the open though because it at least spurs dialogue about the intensifying cyber battle between the U.S. and China. But let’s not kid ourselves, it’s reasonable to conclude that this revelation into the NSA’s efforts in China could hinder their current intelligence efforts.
Agreed. IT is hard to fault the NYT, Der Spiegel, or any media entity for reporting this but not for the reasons Glenn said. I see it as a more practical reason. The moment the documents ended up at Der Spiegel, O Globo, Le Monde and other non-U.S. outlets, was when it no longer just became about the U.S.’s interests. Why would Der Spiegel not report this? If we found out Germany was doing the same, would the NYT not report on it? Of course not. Therefore, the Snowden files are already out there so the U.S. based NYT, WP, TI, et al, can either sit on the sidelines watching non-U.S. news media report or they can also be at the forefront of breaking them.
Nate – You’re very confused about many of the basic facts – beginning with who has documents – and that’s causing you to assert all sorts of things which make no sense at all.
Whether something is “beneficial to the interests of the U.S.” has zero to do with journalism.
No he didn’t. That’s part of his motivation. He said back in June that he disclosed documents about spying on foreigners because he believes their privacy – and the sanctity of the internet generally – matter.
This is where your confusion is at its most extreme. There are only a handful of media outlets that have large caches of documents: the Guardian, the NYT, ProPublica, the WashPost, and us.
Everyone else – including der Spiegel – only gets documents on a case-by-case basis when a journalist who has access to an archive chooses to work with them. This story hasn’t been reported on for 9 months, so there’s zero guarantee it would have been had the NYT not done so here. Der Spiegel didn’t report on it separately – they worked with the NYT to do it.
I answered this exact question at length, and quite explicitly .Did you bother to read it before leaving your long comment?
Neither option is what happened, and had you read what I wrote, you’d know that there are plenty of others.
Do you have the foggiest idea why the Guardian gave docs to the NYT, or are you just baselessly spouting again?
The US Constitution also doesn’t prohibit systematically lying to the American people about a war, so you must oppose Ellsberg’s leak on the ground that he didn’t expose anything unconstitutional, right? That’s the only obligation someone in that position has?
Glenn, you’re hyperbolic as ever. By me being confused about “many” things, I guess you really mean ONE? I’ll be the first to admit a mistake based on a verifiable fact, and if Der Spiegel gets info case-by-case in tandem with other organizations, I regret getting that wrong – messing up the facts pisses me off and I’m all for being called out. However, please don’t try to characterize this as some “basic fact.” The document sharing arrangement between media outlets is about as clear as mud to us readers.
Specifically, while the arrangements with Pro Publica, Guardian, NYT, WP seem to have some privileged access to some amount of the records, the arrangements with publications such as Der Spiegel have not been well detailed. It’s own wikipedia page said that Der Spiegel, “with the help of former NSA contractor Edward Snowden unveiled the systematic wiretapping of Chancellor of Germany Angela Merkel’s private cell phone over a period of over 10 years…” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_Spiegel). So while this may be basic news to YOU, until we’re privvy to how the documents were distributed and how the arrangements work, we are not in the know. Another example: the Spiegel story about the NSA spying on Nieto (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/nsa-hacked-email-account-of-mexican-president-a-928817.html) did not indicate there was some partnership. It said: “This operation, dubbed “Flatliquid,” is described in a document leaked by whistleblower Edward Snowden, which SPIEGEL has now had the opportunity to analyze.” How they attained this opportunity appears to be an internal decision.” Furthermore, based on that, was I to divine that Der Spiegel ascertained documents on a case by case basis only when “journalist[s] who [have] access to an archive chooses to work with them”? Basic facts, my ass. But okay, I got this wrong, and am not one to repeat fact-based mistakes in future posts.
If that’s my biggest error, it irks me but I can live with that. But no, GG referred to my supposed confusion of MANY basic facts. “Many” huh? Well, you sure did not support that claim. But I will still take the time to rebut them all.
If only I had some “Google-fu” skills like the dweebs at the NSA. It’s not hard to verify my claim Glenn.
At SXSW:
Again, in reference to your colleague at the Guardian, Luke Harding:
Glenn, you’re hyperbolic as ever. By me being confused about “many” things, I guess you really mean ONE? I’ll be the first to admit a mistake based on a verifiable fact, and if Der Spiegel gets info case-by-case in tandem with other organizations, I regret getting that wrong – messing up the facts pisses me off and I’m all for being called out. However, please don’t try to characterize this as some “basic fact.” The document sharing arrangement between media outlets is about as clear as mud to us readers.
Specifically, while the arrangements with Pro Publica, Guardian, NYT, WP seem to have some privileged access to some amount of the records, the arrangements with publications such as Der Spiegel have not been well detailed. It’s own wikipedia page said that Der Spiegel, “with the help of former NSA contractor Edward Snowden unveiled the systematic wiretapping of Chancellor of Germany Angela Merkel’s private cell phone over a period of over 10 years…” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_Spiegel). So while this may be basic news to YOU, until we’re privvy to how the documents were distributed and how the arrangements work, we are not in the know. Another example: the Spiegel story about the NSA spying on Nieto (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/nsa-hacked-email-account-of-mexican-president-a-928817.html) did not indicate there was some partnership. It said: “This operation, dubbed “Flatliquid,” is described in a document leaked by whistleblower Edward Snowden, which SPIEGEL has now had the opportunity to analyze.” How they attained this opportunity appears to be an internal decision. Furthermore, based on that, was I to divine that Der Spiegel ascertained documents on a case by case basis only when “journalist[s] who [have] access to an archive chooses to work with them”? Basic facts, my ass. But okay, I got this wrong, and am not one to repeat fact-based mistakes in future posts.
If that’s my biggest error, it irks me but I can live with that. But no, GG referred to my supposed confusion of MANY basic facts. “Many” huh? Well, you sure did not support that claim. But I will still take the time to rebut them all.
If only I had some “Google-fu” skills like the dweebs at the NSA. It’s not hard to verify my claim Glenn.
At SXSW:
Again, in reference to your colleague at the Guardian, Luke Harding:
Having a hard time saving face, aren’t you Nate?
Another quality comment. Feel free to actually chime in on the substance of the discussion; I promise I won’t bite!
Maybe one day my response to your comment will show up! I posted it last night at 10:15 pm and once this morning but it is nowhere to be seen. Is there a filter for long posts or something?
Anyways, you guys need to read the riot act to the web-designers, this is brutal!
You can’t be serious. Complaining to the IG or others internally is a good way to get your life destroyed, and won’t result in outrage at the retaliation (or result in ending any improper programs). Former NSA senior staffer Thomas Drake knows that — and he supports Snowden.
Drake now works for an Apple Store. Read about the hell his government put him through here: http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2013/04/war-on-whistleblowers-how-the-obama-administration-destroyed-thomas-drake-for-exposing-government-waste.html
Thomas Drake did not have any evidence to prove whistleblower retaliation. Otherwise he could and would have filed suit. His lawyers and advocates say he was targeted for his effort in the 2002 Thinthread/trailblazer whistleblowing that resulted in an audit by the IG.
Drake got nabbed by accident. The government thought he leaked the mass surveillance story to the NYT. He of course did not do so. He did leak info to the Baltimore Sun and THAT is what he got prosecuted for. And that prosecution was WAY over the top as many have concluded. But again, there is no proof this was whistleblower retaliation. It’s arguably revisionist history.
Was it a completely random accident? I’m sure it’s just a huge coincidence that they nabbed a “troublemaker” who had previously raised concerns about waste. What about Bill Binney? Major coincidence too?
Clearly, this is what happens when these guys go to the IG, and Snowden was perfectly aware of it.
I think it was an accident. But let me back up and explain why I’m skeptical of the causality of the alleged whistleblower retaliation claim. The implication (or sometimes explicit statement) is that because Drake blew the whistle – by following the book back around 2001 to 2002 – he was retaliated against via the harsh charges against him. But it was actually his unauthorized leaks to the Baltimore Sun that brought about the charges?
More Specifically, there is an in depth New Yorker piece that said in 2002, Drake along with Binney and some others went through the proper whistleblower channels – supervisors, congressional officials and the NSA Inspector General – on the Thinthread versus Trailblazer matter. The result was the initiation and completion of an NSA OIG report in 2005, that was apparently scathing (I tried to read this report but it is redacted to the point of incoherence!). So at this point, there is no doubt that Drake is accurately labeled a Whistleblower. He used the proper channels. He did everything right.
But this seems to be where things get a bit hairy. Drake ended up later disclosing NSA files, some on the same issue brought to the NSA IG’s attention, to the Baltimore Sun. So wasn’t it actually this action, which does not meet the definition of a whistleblower but more akin to a leaker, that actually led to the eventual charges he ended up facing.
I’m not making this shit up, most of it is covered in the New Yorker article
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/05/23/110523fa_fact_mayer?currentPage=all
Drake’s lawyer and others believe it was retribution for the whistleblowing before but they just don’t have the proof to back it.
Having read, with some wonderment, your comments on a number of articles, I am left with one undeniable conclusion. Therefore, I award you another gold star with which you can further impress Zelda. I’ve lost track on whether this is your 2nd or 3rd gold star as other commenter(s) have reached the same conclusion and awarded you gold stars.
In the ‘tater field, we just didn’t bother with collecting everyone’s communications in the first place. That way, minimization was a non-issue.
No, of course not. Brown people, for example, are not part of “the public.” Let’s think of them as the non-public or non-persons. Only western folks, preferably white, are. Scratch that. Let’s leave out Europe too.
Can someone – anyone – unequivocally say that ALL the classified information – the entire universe of it – meets the national security value standard as defined in official classification of national secrets guideline documents or manuals, or are at least SOME of the classifications merely a mechanism to hide unconstitutional activities and other acts of less than qualifying nature? And if the exposure of the classified irregularities fall in the latter category, as has been clearly demonstrated in these revelations, then by what protections, legal or otherwise, can unconstitutional and/or illegal activities that are explicitly prohibited from the classification system (Sec. 1.7. Classification Prohibitions and Limitations. , http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/executive-order-classified-national-security-information ) , credibly lay claim to a need for protection from exposure when their very existence is itself in violation of the national secrets laws?
I am not a lawyer and have no legal background, but a strong argument can be made that activities that are classified as secrets in deliberate violation of classification rules, forfeit their right to protection. And by extension, therefore, national security protection of such activities, in this strict contextual sense, shifts to become vested in their exposure instead as failure to do so constitutes complicity in jeorpadizing national security in the end. I could go on and on to show the truth in this statement beyond doubt. But an easy case in point is in bugging Merkel and Dilma’s phones.
It is not surprising that no one – Agency or Congress, take your pick – has yet publicly come forward in defense of bugging these leaders, or has publicly argued to the face of these leaders and their citizens – let alone to the world at large – that there was any demonstrable national security value in this particular activity. The case is true for many other activities exposed that fail to meet the national security value test as well.
The bottom line is this: it is not the exposure of the ‘so called national secrets’ that is the issue. The question, in my opinion, must be whether there is any real national security value in a particular activity or program that was classified.
@ Pedinska
I’ve seen several people’s replies get lost. I suggest just copying their comment (or a segment thereof)- blockquote it- and just put it up at top. It worked over at Salon and I don’t like these nested comments, anyway! Fuck nested comments without some sort of alert system to replies.
Nice to see ya :)
Anyone else have a problem with NYT not printing comments (decent, not inflammatory) after acknowledged as being received? Has anyone else notice the predominance of negative comments about Snowden in the China article compared to usual? Please read my comment below that did get through to them and printed, but I’m not so sure NSA hasn’t been doing their own Intercepts. If anyone else has experienced this problem, please notify the NYT in case they are being hacked by the NSA. I did send a copy of this to the Public Editor as a FYI.
annenigma
montana
To rjs7777:
You say ‘Posts could be removed from the NYT comments section by China, if the USA were not more powerful, which it is”.
So how can anyone be sure that some of our posts to major newspapers like the NYT aren’t being intercepted and removed by the NSA? They have an army of employees to monitor situational awareness, which includes monitoring public sentiment, and manipulating it as desired.
I have sent two in response to this article, one last night and one this morning, and neither has been posted. Neither was obscene or inflammatory in any way but they were critical of the NSA, the MIC, and the Media when they accept anonymous government officials’ statements as truth without critical analysis.
So we’re supposed to assume that because the USG is powerful, it doesn’t intercept messages thus removing them from being published, and they don’t create lists, and they don’t profile people either, even though they happen to have collected every bit of personal information about everyone – just in case. Imagine what they’d do if they weren’t so powerful they could hack and snoop on the whole world? OMG, they might become like China, then we’d really be in trouble.
*PLEASE NYT, if you did not receive any comments from me other than this one, notify your Public Editor for appropriate follow-up investigation, including an article about missing comments!*
If you refer to Obama as a dictator they won’t print your comment. But oddly they’re actually getting better about publishing non-lefty posts, when they get around to it.
Test:. Obama is a dictator.
Works here.
Go post all your ‘censored’ comments somewhere where we can read them. Problem fixed. Better yet, start your own blog. I am sure your mom will love it!
And Obama is not a dictator, just the public face of the enduring power elites. And even they don’t dictate so much as distract and direct using advanced methods of social control.
This left/right dichotomy that you believe in is entirely specious, it’s just another way to divide and conquer, a game which you enthusiastically play.
Dear Zelda,
Just checking in.
Obviously, the Inmates have taken over the Asylum.
;-}
p.s. Am I the only person whose “replies” are appearing as if they were straightforward comments?
Thanks THG. I had misplaced that link.
Earlier, my reply was not under the comment it was in reference to. That seems to have been resolved (I hope). If not, then this will be a “floater” comment I suppose. :-s
Dear Zelda,
Just checking in.
Obviously, the Inmates have taken over the Asylum.
Affectionately,
Dorothy from Kansas
Dear CitizenSane;
So nice to hear from you. I hope that “Toto” is safely tucked away in your basket.
The Wicked Witch from the West is flying about with her minions.
On the positive side, The Lion has found his courage and the Tin Man has a heart. Unfortunately the Scarecrow is still looking for his brain because the Trolls keep pulling the curtain shut.
What a dilemma! Don’t forget to click those heels together periodically as OZ is ever dimensionally present.
Glenda
TPP–something for everyone (Wyden, Issa, Democracy Now):
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/06/first-congress-member-allowed-to-read-secret-treaty-says-there-is-no-national-security-purpose-in-keeping-this-text-secret-this-agreement-hands-the-sovereignty-of-our-country-over-t.html
Thanks for the link. Have been hearing about this TPP and it does sound really bad. Thanks to Rep. Grayson for sounding the alert.
“the press’s eagerness to expose lawful conduct ”
Except of course it is not lawful.
I cant think of a single country in the world where espionage is legal.
If an Inteligence agency was, for example, hacking Belgacom, then yes, that is illegal. Its illegal under Belgian law. Of course getting extradition would see the country doing the espionage create roadblocks, but lets not pretend for a moment that any of this is truly legal.
Unless I missed the UN meeting which declared all laws to be replaced with US law.
I was in a coal mine once and there was this narcissistic little canary
Little bird was all like “look at me, I can’t breathe! You’re all going to die if you don’t get to fresh air!”
It was all about him. We told him to shut up.
Right before we passed out.
Dedicated to my man Edward Snowden.
Brilliant Titowan!
I’m making this criticism from a position of great respect for Snowden, Greenwald, Poitras, the Guardian, etc.
While not every single detail of Snowden’s documents should probably be revealed, why has all reporting on the documents, the NSA, etc., refused to name the names of the repellent individuals whose actions while working on behalf of the NSA, for example, have enabled these abuses to occur?
Some of these individuals must be quite high-ranking within their organization, and some may be mid-level. Regardless, the immoral, reckless, and usually workaday activities of these individuals – the ones who are bragging in the countless Powerpoint presentations about the extent of the mass surveillance capabilities they helped develop or facilitate, for example – are what actually makes the abuses happen. These worker drones, or managers, as the case may be, have just as much to do with the intelligence community’s abuses against the people of the world, as do the chief policymakers who draw up the direction of intelligence activities.
This is always the case, whether we are talking about abuses of the military, abuses by corporations, abuses by CIA torture operations, or other abuses by intelligence agencies. It’s almost always “regular”, unnamed operatives who actually carry out the repugnant activities.
So in short, I don’t want to see any responses in the vein of the seemingly eternal bs argument that the big guys are the ones who are really responsible; the rest are just following orders. That line of argument is primarily used to excuse the bad actions of regular people.
And sometimes, historically, investigative journalism has named these daily actors, these perpetrators. Why not now?
This is my chief, and perhaps only, criticism of the ways the last year’s revelations have been handled. But it’s a big one.
Are we afraid that some of these magnificent individuals may lose their jobs? That they will be outed, and therefore the effectiveness of their security status will be compromised? Must journalists protect these fine individuals from becoming objects of contempt within their communities – indeed, within the country at large or within the world – because of what they have worked at?
Most disturbingly, I wonder if the non-revelation of the names of individual, responsible bad actors has become part of the unspoken agreement in the conflict between government and journalism – that journalists dare not tread into that territory lest they really become traitors. I worry that this has been internalized.
Finally, I’ll say that I disagree with the repeated assertions, from Snowden himself, that intelligence activity does have a good and honorable role in the workings of the US government, or any government. Such an ideology advances the idea that the intelligence agencies can be reformed to do good. They cannot.
Snowden worked for evil all those years – he redeemed himself, certainly, but I don’t think he wants to admit that a significant part of his life’s work was for evil.
“But there is a huge difference between spying on what are generally regarded to be legitimate foreign targets (political and military officials of adversary governments) and collecting the private communications of entire populations en masse.”
Why would you trust the pro-imperialist USG even to “decide” who is a “legitimate foreign target?” They’re engaging in war including sanctions on those they deem “legitimate foreign targets.” They are looking to institute neoliberal programs against their “adversaries,” and as just happened in Ukraine, they are stirring up shit to get it done. Another example of this is the protests in Ven. (Your 2006 pro-capitalist and pro-Bush piece on Venezuela in which you disparage anti-American protesters indicates your allegiance to neoliberalism, at least in that case.)
They’ve instituted sanctions against the “legitimate foreign adversary” of Iran, they’ve been saber-rattling DPRK and haven’t lifted those sanctions in 60 years, and they utterly destroyed Libya because it was a “legitimate foreign adversary.”
They’re spying on anti-capitalists and anti-imperialists, here and abroad. It’s pretty disgraceful that you would give the USG leeway at all in determining who are “legitimate foreign targets.”
Your tired political rant aside, there is “a huge difference between spying on what are generally regarded to be legitimate foreign targets (political and military officials of adversary governments) and collecting the private communications of entire populations en masse.”
I’m old enough to remember when we distinguished ourselves from our most particular enemies — the Soviets — by our deep, committed respect for the lowly individual, his sovereignty and his rights. Casual, bulk surveillance of entire populations is inimical to all that we once were.
Obese,
LOL! “Our deep committed respect for the lowly individual, his sovereignty and his rights.”
So in other words you’re old enough, you were just leading a sheltered existence.
We had what amounted to apartheid in the U.S. of Black Americans. What about those on the receiving end of the threats from HUAC? Communists were systematically hunted and jailed. Or are not those the “lowly individuals” you’re talking about. Millions of federal workers were questioned about the books and magazines they were reading and what orgs they belonged to. And did they go to church. Teachers, social workers, military personnel all lost their jobs because of the anti-communist hysteria. Union members, lawyer’s guilds, Red activist groups — all targeted. First gen anti-nuke protests started in the 1950s after the Manhattan Project, those people were arrested and jailed.
Not to mention all the dirty work we did overseas (does that count to you?), the Bolshevik revolution post WWII fueled the largest liberation and anti-colonial movements in modern history, and we did everything we could to kneecap those movements, including assassination attempts, sanctions, and outright military invasions.
Sorry, but the massive spying apparatus in place today has more to do with technological advancements and not because “back then” the USG was doing right by the masses. It wasn’t exactly Leave it to Beaver back then.
” It wasn’t exactly Leave it to Beaver back then.”
However, we didn’t feel compelled to go into our bathroom and turn the faucet on in order to have a private conversation. Pete Seeger faced prison time for insisting on his rights before Congress, went to court, and ultimately won. Martin Luther King led the Poor Peoples March on Washington……….. and gave a speech that was recorded and is still revered today. They were not institutionalized and pumped full of prescription dope. The corrupt attempts to use the law against them failed repeatedly. There were — inadequate but still extant — limits on the power of our rotten elites at that time.
I’m not talking about utopia you princess; I’m talking about a flawed society in which a fight could still be fought on behalf of what was right. We have less of that now, but still more than the Soviets allowed their people back in the day. No outpouring of febrile, reflexive leftwing hysterics can change these facts.
Has Glenn told you all yet the story about the time Snowden brought a trove of documents to him?
@squaresville: Your one sentence summary is factually incorrect. You might want to read the factual longer story re Snowden meeting for days with Glenn, Laura, and Ewen in Hong Kong, gaining mutual trust, turning over his wealth of NSA documents, identifying himself in a video by Laura, and then embarking on a journey that, after six weeks, led to his accepting asylum in Russia.
Did Snowden, at one point, bring documents to Greenwald? You’re suggesting that’s factually incorrect? (After first being ignored by Mr. Drones, and first having to introduce himself to Poitras?)
@squaresville: From Webster’s:
bring to
1. To cause to recover consciousness.
2. Nautical To cause (a ship) to turn into the wind or come to a stop.
Which of the above two uses were you trying to convey by your use of “brought to”, and “bring to” ? Please advise.
Gather around the wireless, again, everybody. Gramps wants to tell everyone about the NSA docs that a gov’t insider proactively gave him.
As opposed to a random looney on the internet and his speculations.
Shades now?
Does that story involve glass slippers and two ugly stepsisters? Or seven dwarfs and an evil queen?
I guess by merely suggesting that the comments section be strictly limited to commenting, I somehow managed to make it happen… The comment below was meant as a reply to the comment: delia ruhe
23 Mar 2014 at 11:51 am
You both seem to forget that America was founded by greedy, powerful men who wanted to be even more powerful, and didn’t like being told by their government that they had to obey the rules and pay their taxes.
You also forget that America was colonized, not settled. That’s right folks, we stole this land, fair and square according to our rules which we imported to the land. That’s right, we didn’t steal this land from the Indians, we took it legally – according to the laws we put in place when we claimed ownership of the land that is.
And how did we maintain our ownership of this land? By killing off 90% of the indigenous population through biological weapons and terrorism; first by spreading disease, including syphillus on intentionally infested blankets given as gifts and in trade (read your history to confirm, don’t just believe me.) And also through terrorism. We killed off buffalo and wolves to destroy the spirit of the indigenous peoples, as well as their sources of food and spiritual meaning.
And yes, we kept slaves; part of the paradigm of our English masters we weren’t willing to give up.
When you really look at history from the perspective of the present, it sure as hell seems more like America was founded by a bunch of greedy jerks who were jealous that they could not have power because they weren’t born into royalty; and wanted to be able to have the same “opportunity” to exploit as many people.
Now if you fast foward to World War II and really sit down and examine the United States’ participation in the war, you will find that our true reason for getting into the war, despite our stated neutral stance at the outset, was to acquire what Germany was attempting to acquire – which we did succeed in acquiring – world dominance.
People overlook that, and I can certainly imagine that this is by design… I guess they hadn’t counted on people coming to understand the truth on their own.
Re your statements in PP#1 and PP#5, you seem to believe that the long list of grievances spelled out in the Declaration of Independence were false? Is that truly your belief?
Re your statement in PP#6, how did you come up with this opinion? Did you find some evidence unbeknownst to historians?
Re your PP#7, how did you come to understand your view of the truth?
You meant small pox, not syphillus.
And why do I have to retype my name and email every time I want to comment?
“You also forget that America was colonized, not settled.”
– – –
That’s right, and let’s not forget about the Celtic populations in Britain, France and Spain, displaced by other peoples, or the Mycenae of Greece, or the Amalekites, Canaanites, Midianites et al in someone else’s Promised Land, and so forth.
We are all Visigoths now.
More on Huawei and Snowden in which Mike Rogers says Snowden “backs Russian expansionism” …
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/23/nsa-chinese-company-defends-independence-huawei
… on the same day OWH says Russia is massing to invade.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/23/russian-troops-may-invade-ukraine-white-house
Looks like Chicken Little Kiev is special-of-the-day on Sunday talk.
Thanks for posting these 2 articles from The Guardian.Mike Rogers sure has access to some super-duper info.I think I’ll just quietly go to my fall-out shelter in the basement.
What the media and journalist chose to publish about Edward Snowden is exactly what I, a 44y/o female RNBSN American citizen has been forced to encounter. Surveillance placed in my home illegally, computers and iPhones hacked by criminals- who were hired by law enforcement and my personal information has been accessed including pics of my family, contacts, IP addresses – my entire life. I am harassed 24 hours a day. There is a form of intelligence used by the United States government that I emailed Mr Greenwald about that Edward Snowden did not reveal to journalist. This type of intelligence forces defenseless american citizens to be victimized as an attempt to make the victim look guilty of some crime- however in my situation I was fortunate enough to see TRUTH versus this type of intelligence therefore destroying the special illegal black operation being run on me and others here in Tn. My hope is to first find a place that will give me freedom from this act of terrorism and secondly that someone will be able to prevent or offer protection to future victims of this. I think it should be noted I am no criminal I work to help others and I have contacted the President, Vice President , the Dept of Justice, Senators, Congress, Tn Gov, NSA, cia, FBI in Washington, NRO. Just this week i went to see the FBI in Knox., the District attorney, and called Local law enforcement who all assure me that I have committed no crimes and they are not running a Legal operation however- I have the proof all my calls are being forwarded to law enforcement personnel, as well as my verizon cell phone having Govern protection on it and yet no one wants to admit to putting it on there and verizon says they dont know so at the present i have sent verizon corporate an email demanding to know who allowed anyone access to my information to my iphone and ipads allowing them to destroy my life. I have so many details to this operation but too lengthy to write.
I’m making this criticism from a position of great respect for Snowden, Greenwald, Poitras, the Guardian, etc.
While not every single detail of Snowden’s documents should probably be revealed, why has all reporting on the documents, the NSA, etc., refused to name the names of the repellent individuals whose actions while working on behalf of the NSA, for example, have enabled these abuses to occur?
Some of these individuals must be quite high-ranking within their organization, and some may be mid-level. Regardless, the immoral, reckless, and usually workaday activities of these individuals – the ones who are bragging in the countless Powerpoint presentations about the extent of the mass surveillance capabilities they helped develop or facilitate, for example – are what actually makes the abuses happen. These worker drones, or managers, as the case may be, have just as much to do with the intelligence community’s abuses against the people of the world, as do the chief policymakers who draw up the direction of intelligence activities.
This is always the case, whether we are talking about abuses of the military, abuses by corporations, abuses by CIA torture operations, or other abuses by intelligence agencies. It’s almost always “regular”, unnamed operatives who actually carry out the repugnant activities.
So in short, I don’t want to see any responses in the vein of the seemingly eternal bs argument that the big guys are the ones who are really responsible; the rest are just following orders. That line of argument is primarily used to excuse the bad actions of regular people.
And sometimes, historically, investigative journalism has named these daily actors, these perpetrators. Why not now?
This is my chief, and perhaps only, criticism of the ways the last year’s revelations have been handled. But it’s a big one.
Are we afraid that some of these magnificent individuals may lose their jobs? That they will be outed, and therefore the effectiveness of their security status will be compromised? Must journalists protect these fine individuals from becoming objects of contempt within their communities – indeed, within the country at large or within the world – because of what they have worked at?
Most disturbingly, I wonder if the non-revelation of the names of individual, responsible bad actors has become part of the unspoken agreement in the conflict between government and journalism – that journalists dare not tread into that territory lest they really become traitors. I worry that this has been internalized.
Finally, I’ll say that I disagree with the repeated assertions, from Snowden himself, that intelligence activity does have a good and honorable role in the workings of the US government, or any government. Such an ideology advances the idea that the intelligence agencies can be reformed to do good. They cannot.
Snowden worked for evil all those years – he redeemed himself, certainly, but I don’t think he wants to admit that a significant part of his life’s work was for evil.
This was supposed to be a reply to Bill Owen and Shenebraskan below. :-s
The pic is your wordpress gravatar. At least, that’s how I got mine going.
Where do you go to get a WordPress gravatar? I tried looking at WordPress site and it isn’t apparent.
You might try: https://secure.gravatar.com/
Not positive that’s the site, but it seems familiar to something someone posted in a previous thread.
Thank you!
Testing
Ah! That one! I forgot all about that. Thanks. Makes sense. I must change it, I don’t like it much.
Is there any hope for targeted individuals in the US?
the spiegel article says it all “”the intelligence community structures are not suited for handling issues that combine economic, counterintelligence, military influence and telecommunications infrastructure from one entity.”
This was supposed to go here:
Mr. Summers,
For the benefit of “your audience,” could you please answer the following questions:
Please advise as to your sources of fact. Please cite confirmable references and sources so that we may find and verify these same facts for ourselves. If your assertions are true, they are important. Oddly, your assertions appear to contradict what I have yet been able to confirm, so I would be quite anxious to know your sources so I can check them out for myself.
Specifically, how did you come to understand that journalists want to protect leakers at all costs? Which journalists made this kind of statement? When did they make this statement. Is this otherwise documented somewhere as a policy all journalists must follow?
Please also cite specific examples of how specific journalists, especially those whom you implicitly accuse, are publicly deceiving readers to the benefit of Edward Snowden and detriment of others, including the US Government. I read that you state that it is happening, yet I see no specific examples, and it does not entirely mesh with my observations in the several hours each day I spend reading the news from various sources.
Please also explain your meaning of using this quote: “……..one must congratulate the US Government on its outstanding propaganda feat of getting its journalists to lead the war on those who bring transparency to the nation’s most powerful factions)….” It is inserted into the commentary with apparent direction, but no specific meaning or intention communicated as to what this quote means or supports. It would appear you are making an assertion; but that appears to be no more than a propaganda technique to lead someone to a conclusion using a fallacy, of construction I believe. You also fail to expand on the quote or support its being false, if that is indeed your assertion and you are not merely attempting to lead the reader into an implication that the quote is a falsehood.
The fact is, our government has and does use propaganda, and does unduly influence our media to serve their agenda. The evidence is astounding, if you simply ignore the governments statements about its itentions related to its interactions with the press – its strategic leaks to the press especially. Ever shred of evidence I have come across supports the notion that the media is strung along by our government. So your statement here is quite confusion, almost as though it is intended as propaganda, but I suppose it could just be attributed to your ignorance of the issue and be indicative of the fact that you are yourself the victim of propaganda.
Your harsh words about Snowden do seem to include some accusations which you seem to be intending to present as factual. All your emotional and spurious language aside, could you please cite your references and sources for your apparent assessment of Edward Snowden’s motivations and especially how you would suggest he would have legally or otherwise obtained the documents he released as a whistleblower – the definition of which I will remind you of is a person who reports criminal activity that they witness.
Please also explain how you would expect one would deal with a situation wherein they found themselves in possession of knowledge of the criminal activities of a government entity, and an entity which had made rules specifically to protect itself from whistleblowing activities; making any possibility of revealing criminal activity on their part unlawful.
Please provide attribution for this quote: It is poorly transcribed (it looks as though the only thing being quoted are the ellipses): “…….. “The US government should be on its knees every day begging that nothing happen to Snowden, because if something does happen to him, all the information will be revealed and it could be its worst nightmare,”…….”
Your statement following this quote is strange in consideration of the lack of attribution of the quote. Who said that? How is that statement treasonous?
Finally, could you please provide your credentials or otherwise indicate who you are and why we should pay any attention to you. Your style and apparent agenda here suggest you are either an ignorant “patriotic type”, or an NSA employee. Actually, NSA employees are all certainly patriotic types so I guess the real question is are you just an internet troll, or are you an NSA internet troll?
Mr. Summers,
For the benefit of “your audience,” could you please answer the following questions:
Please advise as to your sources of fact. Please cite confirmable references and sources so that we may find and verify these same facts for ourselves. If your assertions are true, they are important. Oddly, your assertions appear to contradict what I have yet been able to confirm, so I would be quite anxious to know your sources so I can check them out for myself.
Specifically, how did you come to understand that journalists want to protect leakers at all costs? Which journalists made this kind of statement? When did they make this statement. Is this otherwise documented somewhere as a policy all journalists must follow?
Please also cite specific examples of how specific journalists, especially those whom you implicitly accuse, are publicly deceiving readers to the benefit of Edward Snowden and detriment of others, including the US Government. I read that you state that it is happening, yet I see no specific examples, and it does not entirely mesh with my observations in the several hours each day I spend reading the news from various sources.
Please also explain your meaning of using this quote: “……..one must congratulate the US Government on its outstanding propaganda feat of getting its journalists to lead the war on those who bring transparency to the nation’s most powerful factions)….” It is inserted into the commentary with apparent direction, but no specific meaning or intention communicated as to what this quote means or supports. It would appear you are making an assertion; but that appears to be no more than a propaganda technique to lead someone to a conclusion using a fallacy, of construction I believe. You also fail to expand on the quote or support its being false, if that is indeed your assertion and you are not merely attempting to lead the reader into an implication that the quote is a falsehood.
The fact is, our government has and does use propaganda, and does unduly influence our media to serve their agenda. The evidence is astounding, if you simply ignore the governments statements about its itentions related to its interactions with the press – its strategic leaks to the press especially. Ever shred of evidence I have come across supports the notion that the media is strung along by our government. So your statement here is quite confusion, almost as though it is intended as propaganda, but I suppose it could just be attributed to your ignorance of the issue and be indicative of the fact that you are yourself the victim of propaganda.
Your harsh words about Snowden do seem to include some accusations which you seem to be intending to present as factual. All your emotional and spurious language aside, could you please cite your references and sources for your apparent assessment of Edward Snowden’s motivations and especially how you would suggest he would have legally or otherwise obtained the documents he released as a whistleblower – the definition of which I will remind you of is a person who reports criminal activity that they witness.
Please also explain how you would expect one would deal with a situation wherein they found themselves in possession of knowledge of the criminal activities of a government entity, and an entity which had made rules specifically to protect itself from whistleblowing activities; making any possibility of revealing criminal activity on their part unlawful.
Please provide attribution for this quote: It is poorly transcribed (it looks as though the only thing being quoted are the ellipses): “…….. “The US government should be on its knees every day begging that nothing happen to Snowden, because if something does happen to him, all the information will be revealed and it could be its worst nightmare,”…….”
Your statement following this quote is strange in consideration of the lack of attribution of the quote. Who said that? How is that statement treasonous?
Finally, could you please provide your credentials or otherwise indicate who you are and why we should pay any attention to you. Your style and apparent agenda here suggest you are either an ignorant “patriotic type”, or an NSA employee. Actually, NSA employees are all certainly patriotic types so I guess the real question is are you just an internet troll, or are you an NSA internet troll?
Wow Mike, multiple TL;DR posts, please learn to compress your thoughts. Meantime you might watch this speech before the Oxford Union that outlines why Snowden is a true hero:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=UUY7dD6waquGnKTZSumPMTlQ&v=fYykQTZ55zg#t=494
Mike, if you’re trying to reach CraigSummers, try responding directly on other threads he has commented on.
By the way, thank you for asking very legitimate questions that deserve specific answers – and I’d like to hear CraigSummers answers, too.
Regards,
Sillyputtty
I was a bit vexed on whether I thought this story should or should not be published. On one hand, it does shed light on the hypocrisy of the U.S. But on the other hand, I don’t see this leak as very beneficial to the interests of the U.S. One could clearly make a legitimate argument that it is in the world’s best interests but Snowden always gave the impression that the U.S. Constitution was his guiding light so I am struggling to see how this is, in his words, “legitimately in the public interest.” Who is the public? Everybody, including the U.S.’ adversaries? At the end of the day, I am glad this particular story is out in the open though because it at least spurs dialogue about the intensifying cyber battle between the U.S. and China. But let’s not kid ourselves, it’s reasonable to conclude that this revelation into the NSA’s efforts in China could hinder their current intelligence efforts.
Agreed. IT is hard to fault the NYT, Der Spiegel, or any media entity for reporting this but not for the reasons Glenn said. I see it as a more practical reason. The moment the documents ended up at Der Spiegel, O Globo, Le Monde and other non-U.S. outlets, was when it no longer just became about the U.S.’s interests. Why would Der Spiegel not report this? If we found out Germany was doing the same, would the NYT not report on it? Of course not. Therefore, the Snowden files are already out there so the U.S. based NYT, WP, TI, et al, can either sit on the sidelines watching non-U.S. news media report or they can also be at the forefront of breaking them.
The best way to determine another’s character is to listen to how they speak about other people. The US government constantly criticizes other countries over their moral failures. A well-known fellow once said, “Beware of false prophets; you will know them by their fruits.” Notice any rotten odors wafting out of D.C. these days? Same fellow also said, “There is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed and nothing concealed that will not be known”. If you don’t know who said that, ask your congressman.
On a lighter note, Congressman “Commie Mike” Rogers went off his rabies meds and started mouth-foaming over the sinister ties between Snowden and Russia, claiming Ed had help from the KGB – no other way he could have gotten around the iron-clad security checks! Mike will be spending weekends cleaning out his bomb shelter and training his personal zombie army, and hopefully, visiting his veterinarian.
Mike Rogers’ imagination know no bounds. He is now saying that Edward Snowden supported Russia in annexing the Crimea. I’m now waiting for Mike to take the next step and blame Snowden for floods, earthquakes, and Zombies.
You could blame Snowden for global warming, judging by the amount of hot air Rogers and others are generating in his name.
Luckily, Mad Mike is immune to zombie attacks. They eat brains, you know…
And Edward Snowden is Jimmy Carters fault.
If I might make a suggestion:
It is beneficial to have comments.
It is also beneficial to be able to discuss a story with others.
It is however; a royal pain in the ass to everyone involved to try to muster through opinions people have in comments intended for you among the informal discussions that bored individuals and others have on the comments section.
I would like to therefore suggest that the comments section remain but with an explicit rule that the comments must be addressed to The Intercept or the staff who submitted the story, or a general comment to readers of the story. In other words, the comments section would be for, you know, comments, only.
Then, if there was a desire for discussion, a separate discussion board, linked or even in parallel with the comments, could be set up for those who wish to waste their time arguing with ignorant commenters or otherwise wish to engage in discussion.
There is a huge reason for this by the way – to prevent the NSA from using its techniques documented on this site to desparage comments which might contribute to people’s better understanding. But also, it does foster more feedback; which you benefit from of course; by allowing people to feel they can comment without being insulted.
@Mike Wolf
You are a self-appointed judge? I love you! You are great! Always say stupid things like me!! My bestest best friend.
What I say here, I say in all humility and respect, but also in complete confidence: Edward Snowden erred in his decision on how the materials he provided to the media should be released.
The basis for any decision which affects others is a moral one, because that is how we have defined moral decisions – those which affect others. And moral reasoning, is the process by which we make decisions which affect others. And that entails all decisions we make, because they will all have consequences, whether or not we choose to ignore them.
Lawrence Kohlberg, a psychologist, developed a theory to explain moral reasoning, and there is an excellent Wikipedia article on it that you should familiarize yourself with to help you better understand this logic. What you should get from the article is that moral reasoning is no more than the scope of one’s perspective; the size of the group you consider being affected when you make decisions, basically.
Edward Snowden obviously made a decision in dictating to the media how to release the trove of documents he delivered to them, a decision that affects others. We all know by now, even if we don’t understand, that the releases of documents and reporting of the NSA’s activities in the media has had profound consequences. The entirety of our existence has been fundamentally altered by the decisions as to how and when and what documents to release and report on.
Making decisions of this nature, it is quite important that one be right, that one make the correct decision. And the correct decision is going to be the one which has the intended consequences, or the desired consequences, and not just immediately but also in the long term, and without adverse consequences long or short term.
Because we live in an immature society which has not come to understand moral reasoning, the decision to release the documents has two possible “right” answers: the answer from the perspective of America, and the answer from the perspective of planet earth and all its inhabitants. What is good for America may not necessarily be good for the planet.
I am quite certain that Snowden’s decision was made with significant consideration for the American perspective. After all, we wouldn’t want to risk America for the benefit of others, would we?
Or would we?
What is America? It is a country, on planet earth. Right. So if something benefits planet earth, it benefits America, right? Okay, so if something hurts planet earth, it hurts America, right? So how can something benefit America but hurt planet earth? Only in the short term, or rather, only if you choose to or otherwise ignore the temporal factor – the long term consequences in other words.
So, would we then want to go ahead and risk America’s short term needs for its long term needs? Absolutely yes, if those short term needs do not equate to long term needs being harmed.
The correct decision then, is one made from what Kohlberg describes as “Universal Ethics.” Edward Snowden is a lot closer to Universal Ethics than any journalist I know of. But I don’t believe Edward Snowden made this decision in light of universal ethics. I believe he injected far too much in the process to unduly protect America’s short-term interests, and at unexpected costs to the long term interests.
Edward Snowden’s first error was in giving deference to the media to make these decisions. That was a huge mistake. And please understand, I am not condemning or even judging the media here, especially not Glenn, Laura, or any of the others close to Snowden. You are all acting in good faith. But you are acting without the benefit of universal perspective. My purpose here is merely to point this oversight out.
But Edward Snowden made two errors in his decision. The second error was releasing himself from further involvement in the decision.
What I am personally most concerned with as a result of the method by which documents are released is that the decision was obviously not adaptive in nature, that is, the decision to release documents does not consider the effects of previous releases. It could not. And what is happening is that factors that should be affecting the decision are not being considered because they are the result of prior releases of information. So another mistake Snowden made in his dictation of how to release documents, was to fail to consider that the releases would dictate what would need to be release later.
Please understand I am not faulting Snowden or anyone else here. This is a massively complicated decision that cannot possibly be understood by any one player; and no, not even me with my intellectual capabilities. The proper way for the documents to be released is through committee and based on adaptive criteria and in consideration of the consequences of each release or reporting and in light of universal perspective – both the short and long term consequences to all who inhabit this planet.
I do wish that Snowden were actively participating in the release of documents. Surely he feels the burden on his shoulders. Surely he understands that documents aren’t being released and stories aren’t being reported fast enough to quell the universal fervor which can only lead to global conflict, and that in fact the releases and stories are being used to further the very agenda these releases are designed to undermine.
I highly encourage a review of the process. We are on the brink of global conflict, world war, and in that trove of documents is the means by which we can prevent such a conflict. Take the documents to the ICC if necessary. Take them to the UN. Take them to the people of America. Do whatever it takes to make us see the truth about our government and its agenda, and please do so before more innocent lives are lost.
If there is anything I can contribute, if there is some way I can demonstrate my ability and desire to contribute for the benefit of the whole of this planet, please contact me and grant me the chance to help. I have nothing but time on my hands, and an unwavering desire to fix this fucked up planet – if for no other reason than because I selfishly want a planet and civilization I can enjoy without going through life addicted to this or that just to make it through the day.
In the meantime, if you could provide a detailed telling of the decision making process, it would go a long way towards the transparency we so desperately need. We need to get used to hearing the truth. Don’t deprive us of that much needed lesson please.
Thank you.
“Take the documents to the ICC if necessary. Take them to the UN.”
Yeah….well. Taking the documents to the UN would ensure that No Disclosure would be forthcoming.
Here is a little historical food for thought:
http://educate-yourself.org/nwo/illuminatiagendabestoverviewyet8jun02.shtml (Transcript Fagan 1967)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GnyNw0hgS8 (Myron C. Fagan 1967)
@Mike Wolf: Having listened to and read everything that I could find that Edward Snowden has said and written since June 2013, I find myself disagreeing with one of your key assumptions where you state “I am quite certain that Snowden’s decision was made with significant consideration for the American perspective. After all, we wouldn’t want to risk America for the benefit of others, would we?”
Edward Snowden’s communications to the EU Parliament, SXSW, TED, Chn4 Christmas message, … persuade me to believe that his audience is the world community.
Protecting our privacy, in today’s increasing use and dependence on electronic/digital communications, especially the Internet, from the growing mass surveillance apparatus of the US and UK, is Edward Snowden’s passionate plea in all of his direct communications. He constantly reminds us that his reason for releasing the NSA documents was to encourage a public discourse on matters of privacy, surveillance, and the ”war on terror”. The worldwide dissemination of investigative journalist articles is increasingly encouraging this public discourse which is growing louder each passing week.
Snowden risked his life to get those documents.
He can and should do whatever the hell he wants with them.
When Wikieaks dumped everything at once, it got lost in the noise floor.
I am sure that Snowden was intelligent enough to recognize that.
He is releasing them into the news cycle for maximum effect. Instead of one front page story (ala wikileaks)
he gets dozens of timely front pages.
You seem to know very little about how news cycles work in practice.
Snowden ‘released’ the docs last June. He no longer has access to them. It’s Glenn Greenwald, Laura, WaPo, and the NYT who are making those determinations now. Glenn and Laura have the full set, the rest of them have subsets.
Excellent comment, well said and some interesting thoughts.
I don’t know what the answer is. I do know that if you make a solemn promise to someone you should honour that promise.
What makes me wonder is to the eventual disposition of these documents. When the team is ‘finished’ then what is to become of the remaining cache? It’s a real poser.
Slight correct:
“Echoing the script of national security state officials, these journalists argue that these revelations are unjustified, even treasonous, because this is the type of spying the NSA should be doing, and disclosure serves no public interest while harming American national security, etc. etc.”
The “etc. etc.” should have read “blah. blah.” ;)
Sort of off the wall and out of bounds…
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/inside-the-admissions-process-at-george-washington-university/2014/03/22/f86b85fa-aee6-11e3-a49e-76adc9210f19_story.html?wpmk=MK0000203
No indication if that’s helpful to the student’s admission goal at GWU, or not.
The only workable theory is that Snowden uses mind control techniques learned while employed by the CIA to puppeteer NY Times journalists into publishing documents that most fully embarrass the United States government under direct orders from bully bear Vladimir Putin and his commie comrades in China.
What’s truly extraordinary is that during this same period of time Snowden was able to use his extrasensory skills to disappear the Malaysian airliner, finish off Fred Phelps and engineer Mercer’s victory over Duke.
What’s indisputable is that Edward Snowden’s stubbornly repeated demand that all NSA documents be published immediately and in their entirety has now caused great damage and confusion.
Apparently both American and Chinese corporations and citizens are simultaneously less safe and more safe from being secretly and simultaneously spied on by American and Chinese intelligence agencies through a third rate electronics company.
In summation (and simplification) everything is narcissist Edward Snowden’s fault.
But if you consume mainstream American media you probably already knew that.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
Truly a work of art.
Vehemently agree
Well done!
@ggreenwald I’ve noticed you break into a comment less frequently in The Intercept.Is that b/c of security concerns, focusing on setting up the site, going through NSA docs, speaking at other sites, writing, etc.—why is this the case?
“US Journalists Against Transparency” is among my favorites—good work!
” I’ve noticed you break into a comment less frequently in The Intercept.”
There’s an app for that– ie:Twitter :)
Greenwald has 342,000 twitter followers. So, if just 1% of them are actively following, it means 3420 people will be reading his tweets. How many people wade into the comment section? A couple hundred? I can’t prove it, but my perception is that since even before the start of the NSA reporting, Greenwald’s participation in the comment section has been declining as his twitter activity as been increasing. He’s working, so he’s going to do whatever he considers best for his work, as he should. Boo hoo.
Greenwald’s participation in the comment section has been declining as his twitter activity as been increasing. He’s working, so he’s going to do whatever he considers best for his work, as he should.
There are also book deadlines and the demands of hiring for The Intercept and all the attendant demands of starting up a new website. I suspect that once those issues get settled, Glenn’s participation will come back up to the levels folks who read him at the Graun, Salon and on Unclaimed Territory were more accustomed to.
(Caps = Italics/Emphasis not (totally silent) “Shouting”. After all..who would ever want to Shout about any of this? I mean gall…lets just remain silent and whisper our disgust and outrage..frankly..more people should be shouting…many more.)
Well..once again…to THIS Citizen the reality is unequivocal;
FASCISM!
The “Defenders” of every “Black Project” the U.S. Bureaucratic Class and its “Corporate Partners” engage in are IDENTICAL to previous Book Burners and Murderers of both Past and Present.
The Question then, to these “Defenders” of “Total Control”, is real simple;
“Okay, Then WHAT..in your estimation WOULD be in fact ‘Too Far’?”
Book Burning?
I mean if Snowden had released ALL these documents as a self printed BOOK/VOLUME…should EVERY COPY BE “CONFISCATED AND BURNED”? Or would releasing the Documents to the American People as “Literature” have been “Different” than releasing it to the Press?
How about MASS SEARCHES? If Snowden HAD released the Information To The People say on Portable Hard Drives..what then? CHECKPOINTS? Armed Mass Searches like in Boston? To “Get The Data Back From The People”?
Okay..how about TORTURE? If Glenn Greenwald were to show up in America..should he be “Immediately Detained And Tortured To Discover What He Knows And Where The ‘Trove’ Of Documents Are?”
I mean hey..his Partners “Detention” WAS In fact “Upheld” by the British..(The UK is tragically the “First Western Democracy To Cede To Chinese Style Corporate Fascism).
How about “Rendition”? Do you “Supporters” of the Security/Surveillance State “Secretly” wish Snowden or ANY OTHERS Kidnapped oh…sorry..”Renditioned” etc..sad endless et cetera…
How about ARMED CHECKPOINTS on American Streets?
C’mon Fascists, Answer the Question? Should MASS WARRENTLESS SEARCHES be “Approved” EN MASSE if for example “Snowden Were At Large In America”?
ANSWER THE QUESTION!
These are not even remotely “Unrealistic” questions. These are the REAL issues.
These people are getting away with their Fascist Ideology by AVOIDING………….ANY………Discussion of the VERY REAL REPERCUSSIONS of a SURVEILLANCE AND SECURITY STATE that LIES to the People when the PEOPLE’S “REPRESENTATIVES” (Mostly, In Name Only) actually “Go Through Proper Channels” (as the Fascist are TIRELESSLY Promoting) and HIDES more and more “Programs and Policies” from not ONLY …of COURSE..the “People” but also their “Representatives”.
The sad tragic reality..and it really is a tragedy..is that the “Supporters”..the “Proponents” of Corporate Fascist Government..are doing so, NOT out of any actual, as their constantly promoting, “Patriotic/Secular REALISM” (“Its A Dark World Out There Full Of Meanies Who Hate Us And OUR GOVERNMENT IS JUST PROTECTING OUR FREEDOM (BY DESTROYING IT)….GALL! Whine! Whimper! Snivel!…sniff..!”) or even “Simple” Patriotism”…but rather the same Road Rage Politics of any Tailgater or Vicious Driver…its all “Rage”..its all “Revenge And Resentment”..lining up like “CLIMATE CHANGE DENIERS” on “One Side Or The Other” for the pure vicious insanity of “COMBATE!”.
They just want to fight and hate and spew words into the ether.
Again, The Tragic Fact is, that for these people…those “Defending” the TOTAL SECRECY of a “Democratic Government”…as pure a Contradiction in Terms as can exist…this is in fact a kind of LUNACY along the lines, again, of Climate Change Denial…..they’re in this thing for the “Hate”..for the “Fight”..NOT to actually “Defend” that which is CLEARLY indefensible…but simply to fulfill some psychological agenda(s) of Revenge and Resentment and of course…the most grim and terrifying “Destination” for all of this………………..CONTROL!
For me…one of Snowdens GREATEST ACHIEVEMENTS…has been to GET THESE PEOPLE OUT OF THEIR CLOSETS and “Encourage” them VIA their Hatred and Rage to “EXPOSE THEMSELVES” so we..the Defenders/Supporters of DEMOCRATIC, TRANSPARENT, NON-CORPORATE, OPEN GOVERNMENT oops..sorry..A Democratic Republic.. can be made aware that Fascism exists in America…and in some very sad, strange, places.
“FASCISM!”
Yeah well…the truth is that this Governmental Model is not confined to the United States of America. That is; it is actually the International Governmental Model and it is threatening sovereign individual rights in Governments all over Planet Earth.
That stated, just for the moment, lets tackle the question of possible solutions within The United States of America.
What actions do you believe the average: unemployed, starving, and chemically altered, but politically aware citizens of the United States of America; should take to wipe out “Fascism.”???????
Please. The UK simply follows the tug of the leash. And the Chinese can claim Fascism all they like, but they’re just a bunch of imitators.
Keep telling the truth Glenn…US corporate media is controlled by the corporations for the corporations by the corporations. We have NO REAL news networks who are willing to speak truth to power, except a few alternative ones. Everyone of those talking heads on corporate tv…(and I include Rachel Maddow) getting their talking points straight from the pentagon or from the White House. there is NO investigative journalism anymore which is why people are frightened the US has already turned into a police state of facists at the top in both parties…keep the truth coming Glenn, and be well.
I might suggest there’s an elephant in your room, Mr. G.
Journalists so against any “free speech” concerning government crimes and hypocrisy seem severely compromised about their chosen profession, and perhaps a number have been since some sort of recruitment occurred. I remember well seeing federal ‘agency’ recruiting booths on college campuses across OUR country since the ‘70s. The thought has intruded more than once over the years that few would have better access, State Department included, to a great number of foreign places in a short period of time – than journalists / reporters.
Food for unpleasant thoughts…
No quite sure what you are saying. Edward Snowden did what he needed to do to get his message out, without stating the specifics ‘loose lips sink ships’ detailed facts. Am sure that WITHIN those documents were such but he had the intelligence and discretion to ENSURE that was withheld. Because what Snowden was disclosing was so much BIGGER than the facts. But Snowden has not sold out to anyone, our enemy-where-ever-u-r, he has not made a great profit, his birth-right civil status as an american US citizen has been stolen, etc. What angers those opposing him is that he has truly blown their insignificance away; pure jealousy on their part.He committed the unforgivable mistake of making them all look bad! He is one of the few who stood up and none or few have stood as tall as Edgar Snowden…at least for a while.
Whether intended or not, few things seem more trollish than opening with passive-aggressive blame for your feigned lack of comprehension – particularly when you actually then manage a rebuttal argument (how every anti-Snowden journalist is instead really only “jealous” of him.)
I personally believe your suggestion providing this complete whitewash of such journalists’ possible motives is being either remarkably naive – or intentionally deceptive.
PEACE
I find it exceedingly difficult to discern what points or claims you are trying to make in your two comments (above). Are you a bot?
“few things seem more trollish than opening with passive-aggressive blame for your feigned lack of comprehension…”
No, I think you understood at least one thing – perfectly.
I think NFJTAKFA is saying that the journalists Glenn has identified as being weak-willed government suck-ups who are too afraid to publish the truth (I’m paraphrasing a little) might actually be something worse. They may have actually been recruited as propagandists by the government agencies. From a psychopathic government’s point of view, that would make perfect sense – to pay the people who produce the news, and who have unparalelled access to foreign nationals and sources of information, to spin that news *their* way, and push government propaganda.
Thank you rogerjolly but still not dark enough, and after the previous attempt to ‘clean’ my possible intended meanings I must ask if this was also your intention?
My bet would be “propagandists” is the tip of the tool-kit iceberg – for some.
Perhaps you haven’t served the man enough (yet?) to seriously tint your lenses, or you’re in fact also trying to intentionally diminish the ‘possibilities’ considered.
For instance, just consider the alternate professions most suited to warehousing ‘any and all’ agents for which there’s no immediate need.
It’s a short list, and the State Department’s a (limited) given.
Thank you. This is a magnificent editorial that covers a spectrum of key issues from a universal view. Applause!!!!
Of course each reader will process this data differently and come to their own conclusions however, the content leads one to investigate the motivation of the United States Government in conducting this NSA operation.
“But the NSA made a special effort to target Huawei. With 150,000 employees and €28 billion ($38.6 billion) in annual revenues, the company is the world’s second largest network equipment supplier. At the beginning of 2009, the NSA began an extensive operation, referred to internally as “Shotgiant,” against the company, which is considered a major competitor to US-based Cisco.” From Spiegel Online International
Critics of publishing the story should probably consider that the US Government might actually object to the possibility the Huawei might not be including the necessary mass surveillance components in their manufactured equipment that allows the NSA backdoor access into the Cisco based US market.
On your key points:
“Who created the uber-nationalistic standard that the only valid disclosures are ones involving the rights of Americans? Are we are all supposed to regard non-Americans as irrelevant? Is the NSA’s bulk, suspicionless surveillance of the private communications of hundreds of millions of human beings inherently proper simply because its victims aren’t American citizens? Even more extreme: are American journalists (and whistleblowers like Snowden) supposed to keep the public ignorant of anything and everything the US Government does to people provided those people aren’t blessed with American citizenship? ”
The answer is NO to each question as the overreach of the US Government with NSA mass surveillance is obviously an International issue. Given that the NSA is acting as an agency for the United States this means that it is up to the United States Government to reign in this abomination. It is the responsibility of US Citizens to ensure that the US Government does that. But….the NSA is just a knight on the board in the larger Global Dominance Game. Of course, taking the piece will help.
Final point:
“Take the classic whistleblowing case of the Pentagon Papers: those documents really did not reveal illegality as much as they revealed government deceit, systematic lying to the American people about the Vietnam War. The fact that such official lying may have been legal hardly means that it should have remained concealed.”
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_York_Times#The_Pentagon_Papers
On Guard US Government and NSA.
You are brilliant Mr. Greenwald.
Kevin Drum (MJ) chimes in…
<a href="http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2014/03/whats-difference-between-barton-gellman-and-glenn-greenwald"What's the Difference Between Barton Gellman and Glenn Greenwald?
Whoops! Forgot a character. My abject apologies for the #HTMLFAIL.
http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2014/03/whats-difference-between-barton-gellman-and-glenn-greenwald
“And the truth is that, as near as I can tell, nearly every single document that Greenwald has published so far would also have been published by the Post or the New York Times if they had gotten to it first. He hasn’t done anything that these pillars of American journalism haven’t done too.”
Excellent point. By the way….both links work.
I’d like to emphasize a short comment from MikeSulzer below, about the primary reason our security bureaucracy is so gungho for more data. Bulk surveillance of non-American civilian populations appears to be increasing for reasons which have very little to do with the security of the American people, and everything to do with patronage and “private” enterprises making bank off the US taxpayer.
The American people have paid for many thousands of >5000 sq ft “Georgian” mansions in northeastern Virginia and eastern Maryland during the past 12 years. Meanwhile, out here in flyover, our bridges, schools and public services are rotting at an ever faster rate, courtesy of deferred maintenance.
Public employees, as well as Salon.com commentators, would suggest then that you desperately need tax increases out in flyover so that your state, county and local employees can own their own >5000 sq ft “Georgian” mansions.
Mr. Greenwald
Are any of the “real journalists” at “The Intercept” aware of the annexation of the Crimean Peninsula by the Russians – a part of a sovereign state? Or do you get all of your information from RT, Mr. Greenwald? The Intercept continues to evolve into a predictably anti American site.
“……..True to form, however, these beacons of courage refuse to malign the parties that actually made the choice to publish these revelations – namely, the reporters and editors of the New York Times – and instead use it to advance their relentless attack on Edward Snowden……..”
“Journalists” involved in the release of top secret documents go overboard to protect the leakers – in this case, Edward Snowden. “Journalists” want to protect their sources and encourage more leakers to come forward. The defense of Snowden has been constant even asking for clemency from the US government.
Time after time, we hear the same defense for leakers like Snowden: He gave up a comfortable life; he is concerned about internet freedom; he cares about the Fourth Amendment; he was trapped in Russia; he is courageous; indeed, he is heroic. The attempt to glorify Snowden is really remarkable.
On the other side of the coin – time and time again – you use the same adjectives to describe other journalists who don’t agree with the publication of the leaks as “beacons of courage”, “Government lackeys” or even:
“……..one must congratulate the US Government on its outstanding propaganda feat of getting its journalists to lead the war on those who bring transparency to the nation’s most powerful factions)….”
Some journalists may simply not agree with the publication of documents. That might be based on principle, Mr. Greenwald. Anyone who might have glanced at your “journalism” over the last several years could certainly make a strong case for your “motivation” in publishing the documents – and it’s not the Fourth Amendment. The release of the partnership between the US and Israel on the Stuxnet virus is one example of released information that was clearly politically motivated i.e., simply an attempt to undermine American-Israeli relations (whether you had anything to do with releasing this information or not).
The truth about Snowden is far from the superlative adjectives employed by his supporters. He was an NSA spy for years making a living developing and utilizing the programs currently being exposed by the courageous and “real” journalist who have access to the stolen documents. He lied to obtain a job with his last employer specifically to steal the documents. He broke the law by stealing the documents – and he broke his written and signed non-disclosure agreement with his employer concerning access to top secret documents at the NSA. He stole far more documents than necessary including ones that were described by you:
“…….. “The US government should be on its knees every day begging that nothing happen to Snowden, because if something does happen to him, all the information will be revealed and it could be its worst nightmare,”…….”
Obviously, just by that statement alone, he put US National Security at severe risk. He put those documents in the hands of journalists that clearly were clueless about the extent of NSA spy networks – and presumably the spy networks of our enemies as well (of course, Snowden is collecting data about Russian intelligence even as we speak?). He broke the law – and he compromised US national security, Mr. Greenwald. Plain and simple.
Finally, just because the New York Times publishes NSA documents, that in no way legitimizes their publication. Nor does it mean by any stretch of a “real” journalist’s imagination mean that there was no harm to national security. However, the New York Times is definitely more responsible than the likes of Assange – the person wanted in the questioning for two rapes.
Snowden put a corrupt Beltway patronage apparatus at severe risk; the Amercian people, not so much.
Broadly restraining the kleptocrats of modern Russia is in our interests; the specific legal status of Crimea is not. Crimea was no Denmark prior to its annexation by Russia. All the high volume establishment wailing over this Russkie land grab is damned contrived, and I’m far from unique in making note of that fact. The average young American struggling to make it in our country today….. he’s not the febrile, easily led dumbshit you all would like him to be.
“……..All the high volume establishment wailing over this Russkie land grab is damned contrived, and I’m far from unique in making note of that fact……”
Fine. Contrived. Now was the annexation legal or moral? Additionally, is it the job of a journalists to expose this horribly contrived and hypocritical US response – or report the invasion as stomping on the rights of a sovereign nation by a half pint, ex-KGB officer who has systematically undermined the democratic rights of the Russian and Ukrainian people.
Thanks Fluffy
It isn’t Greenwald’s job to cover Russian expansionism in eastern Ukraine; he doesn’t know jack shit about the place. Putin’s policies in re the traditional Russian satellite states is troubling. He is clearly devoted to increasing Russia’s presence in these regions. We have an interest in keeping his expansions confined (at least) to ethnic Russian enclaves. We have a broad ethical responsibility to speak against the suppression of minorities like the Tatars, the Ukrainian Catholics, etc.
However, I would never look to Glenn for coverage of these issues. I know more about them than he does. More importantly, we Americans should never get over-committed in the sorry, beet-strewn wastelands the Russians are now meddling with. The current Russian mafia-state could entirely annex, say, Belarus, and corruption in Minsk would only decrease. Crimea and most of the Russian-ethnic dominated eastern provinces of Ukraine are likewise, a bunch of rotten little fiefdoms that cling to old Red politics with or without Mother Russia.
The only reason to keep them from (re-)absorbing these territories is that they’ll never stop at ethnic boundaries. They ruled over most of Eastern Europe in Putin’s youth; he would love to see them do so again. I never want to see them have influence in Kiev, Warsaw or Prague again. But, Sevastopol? Come on. They ruled there de facto before the formal annexation.
Thanks Fluffy. Greenwald may know very little about the invasion of the Crimean Peninsuls as you suggest, but this is a well funded news site. The funding comes from Omidyar who gave financial assistance to the Ukrainian opposition/protesters because he believes in democracy. Greenwald has hired several “journalists” for this new (anti American) endeavor. There really is no excuse for ignoring an obvious breach of international law by the Russians. How many times has Greenwald pointed out that the US ignored international law? This is how the Intercept portrays itself:
“…..We believe the prime value of journalism is its power to impose transparency, and thus accountability, on the most powerful governmental and corporate bodies, and our journalists will be provided the full resources and support required to do this……”.
It doesn’t say the US, Israel or even the “west”. Presumably, the statement applies to all governments. Maybe I’m wrong – and one of the founders of the site could explain that international law is meaningless unless the US breeches it
Did you just say you care about the rights of Russians? In no comment that you’ve posted have I seen you express concern for, say, the privacy rights of people around the world or their right to due process. Quite the contrary. So how does that work?
The Crimea situation is indeed contrived. There are conflicting principles at play. Isn’t self-determination a key principle of territorial conflict? It’s quite clear what the majority of Crimeans want, and that was known even before there was talk of a referendum. That’s why the US and Europe went ballistic as soon as it was suggested that Crimeans themselves should decide their fate. It’s also why Russia is not facing an insurgency in Crimea, or even demonstrations of significance.
It’s substantially different when a foreign power imposes a no-fly zone over a country, destroys infrastructure, kills its leaders and thousands of people, and installs its puppets as though they had democratic legitimacy. Until that happens, I’m frankly not that concerned or interested in Russian imperialism.
“……..The Crimea situation is indeed contrived. There are conflicting principles at play. Isn’t self-determination a key principle of territorial conflict? It’s quite clear what the majority of Crimeans want, and that was known even before there was talk of a referendum. …….”
You only expose yourself to ridicule by saying something that even by the standards of most fringe leftists is idiotic. A country illegally invades and occupies a sovereign country and illegally holds a referendum to annex part of that country at the point of a gun. The referendum results – as reported by the invading country – indicated that 95.7% of Crimeans voted to susede even though the Russian population is only about 59% in the Peninsula. And your best answer is NATO (US) made a mess in Libya? And maybe you can explain to me why that matters?
“……… I’m frankly not that concerned or interested in Russian imperialism……”
Excuse me for thinking that had the US done the same in Cuba, you would be going ballistic (as would Greenwald). You point out exactly why anti Americanism is such a disease – and I will keep pointing it out every time someone makes this ridiculous comparison. International law, human rights, civil liberties and civil rights means only something to you if it satisfies your anti American craving. Other than that, you are not “…..concerned or interested in Russian imperialism……”
Thanks for your response
Suggesting that because only 59% of Crimeans are ethnic Russians that’s what the referendum results should’ve been at most, is irrational, xenophobic and completely without basis. It’s also without basis to say the referendum was held at gun point. In fact, the international observers said quite the opposite. Look it up. Even if the right result is not as high as 95% had there been 100% turnout (which no election has), it’s totally stupid to pretend that the will of Crimeans is anything other than what it clearly is.
It’s impossible to imagine that the US could or would do the same in Cuba. Anything it would do would involve lots of bloodshed, lots of resistance, many ethnocentric assumptions about the will the people, and much ignoring of the actual will of the people — as is usually the case with US “humanitarian” interventions. And yes, I would absolutely go ballistic in any plausible scenario of that nature.
In fact, Craig, you know what is actually a close analogy? Annexation of Puerto Rico. Would anyone care? QED.
.”……..In fact, Craig, you know what is actually a close analogy? Annexation of Puerto Rico. Would anyone care? QED…….”
Puerto Rico is an unincorporated territory of the US. Crimea is a part of a sovereign state (Ukraine) recognized by the international community. I’m not quite sure how you came up with that analogy, but your interest in justifying an illegal invasion and annexation of a part of a sovereign nation is remarkable.
You indicate that this is what the Crimeans wanted, but they were under no threat and this needed to be done through the Ukrainian government – and of course it had nothing to do with Russian interests. And there was plenty of time given for the opposition i.e., the Ukrainian government to mount a counter campaign, right? Or even have a presence in the Peninnsula? This was an illegal referendum held without any basis in international law. The security Council voted to condemn the referendum:
“……. The United Nations Security Council failed to adopt a resolution declaring the referendum invalid, as Russia exercised its right to veto as a permanent member of the council. Thirteen members voted in favor of the resolution and one abstained.[12][13]…..”
By the way, Crimeans were given two options but neither of the options included keeping the status quo in Crimea! I support seceding if it protects an ethnic or religious minority, but they must be threatened to invite an intervention. That simply wasn’t the case in Crimea. You are really inviting some serious breeches of international standards with your support of Russian invasion.
No way Jose. You are entirely wrong (at best) and at worst, you are a Russian shill.
Yea, Russia’s continued aggressive actions are what threaten international standards of behavior. You’re hilarious today, Craig.
“…….International law, human rights, civil liberties and civil rights means only something to you if it satisfies your anti American craving…….”
You are simply driven by your hatred of America. Whatever did you do before Greenwald began writing…..possibly John Pilger?
@Craig Summers –
Judging by your several posts about the goings on in Russia and bordering territories, you’re pretty much completely ignorant on the subject, and only use it as a cudgel to rant and rave more at and about Snowden, Greenwald and commenters here.
I don’t at all claim to have an educated background or current ground on the subject either, but I do find that if you look around you can find out that what is going on is a lot more complex than the churlish propaganda reports that you’re working with in order to yack it up here.
Try this link: Che What You Call Your Pasa. If you do dedicate yourself to taking the substantial amount of time that it would take to absorb and comprehend what is there, please send your usual rants and “Mr. Whomevers” to others, if you must post rants here at all about it. I’m not interested in your opinions, such as they are. I’m just trying to give you – and anyone else who reads this – a place to go to find out some deeper context about the subject. Good luck. See you next month or year. Take your time. Don’t hurry back.
“…….Try this link: Che What You Call Your Pasa……”
HaHaHaHa. Classic propaganda by Russian shills. I have read it all – you know the Nazis and the CIA were behind the “coup”. The Russians living on the Crimea Peninsula were in dire danger. Of course, none of this had anything to do with a President that was a Russian puppet, or that Ukrainians lived under Soviet domination for decades and preferred closer ties to the EU. How is the weather in Moscow, Kitt?
????????? ????
Wow, you really don’t make any effort at all, do you? Your entire purpose for being here seems to be about nothing more than crabbing, stabbing, tweeking, grunting, barking, diverting and then, of course, your obligatory phony sign off of, “Thanks for your response.”
Ultimately I wonder, what do you mean by, plural, “shills.” That’s one guy posting that blog. He covers a multitude of subjects; usually very much in depth. He used to post comments on Glenn’s UT, and for some time on Salon also. You might even have some common bashing interests you could share with him, as he has been pretty critical and cynical towards Greenwald in the past; still is sometimes, in fact.
Still perpetuating that “Assange rapes ladies” lie like a good USGov brownshirt?
Say, do rape victims typically throw parties for their rapists *after* the alleged attack took place, and describe them as “the coolest people alive” to borrow a quote?
I’m surprised you didn’t squeeze a “Snowden = TRAITOR” in there too.
“……..Still perpetuating that “Assange rapes ladies” lie like a good USGov brownshirt?…..”
He is still wanted for questioning by the Swedish authorities. This is simply a part of the “war on women” conducted by the fringe left.
Oddly, the Swedish government hasn’t attempted to move one finger to try to move the case forward, for the sake of the two women. Does Sweden not see a need to try to get to the bottom of it? There are a number of perfectly reasonable things they can do.
For anyone interested in all the known/alleged facts of the case thus far, here’s the full police report. Decide for yourself if there’s anything prosecutable there.
It is not for any one to decide except the Swedish authorities, OK?
Yes, why don’t they? They can if they really wanted to.
He is currently in the Ecuador embassy in the UK. He is untouchable in his current location.
You don’t know what you’re talking about. There are many ways in which they can arrange questioning Assange. Both Assange and Ecuador have said they can cooperate with Swedish authorities.
According to Wikipedia:
“……. Assange has been under investigation in the United States since that time. In the same year he was accused of rape and other sexual offences in Sweden. In 2012, facing extradition to Sweden, he took refuge at the Ecuadorian embassy in London. There he remains, having been granted political asylum by Ecuador…..”
I am sure that the Swedish authorities could arrange for Mr. Assange to come to Sweden for questioning without US interference. Not guilty? Then go back for questioning. Simple. Why is that so difficult for our defender of freedom, Jose?
The can question him at the embassy, in person or by phone. There are several other options that involve providing diplomatic assurances. It’s all perfectly doable. They just won’t do it for a reason that is self-evident: Once they question Assange, they have to either charge him or close the case. They just don’t have sufficient evidence to charge him.
“…….Once they question Assange, they have to either charge him or close the case. They just don’t have sufficient evidence to charge him…..”
There you go again – trying the case for the Swedish authorities. Rape is OK if you agree with his politics?
Summers states “This is simply a part of the “war on women” conducted by the fringe left.”
Really, it isn’t the LIE PIG LIE CON party waging the war on women, but the left?
Pull your head out of Roger Ailes ass and take a breath of clean fersh air.
Scumbag.
“…….Really, it isn’t the LIE PIG LIE CON party waging the war on women, but the left?…..Pull your head out of Roger Ailes ass and take a breath of clean fersh air……..Scumbag.”
I said “fringe” left – and I was being a little sarcastic. Thanks for your well thought out response.
‘ I’m surprised you didn’t squeeze a “Snowden = TRAITOR” in there too. ‘
He was busy plucking the eyes out of his Snowden doll.
“…….He was busy plucking the eyes out of his Snowden doll…..”
Really? Well, pluck you too.
@CraigSummers,
That you feel that The Intercept and Glenn Greenwald are biased is obvious, what is not evident are the actual facts you used to reach this conclusion.
In other words, you offer no specific data to rebut specific claims that are made by the staff here; you merely rely on ad-hominem innuendos and inferences to make your muddled case.
That people who make statements sometimes get the facts wrong is a given, but until you can form more cogent and specific arguments to disprove them, please keep your prejudiced diatribes to yourself.
Everyone here likes a good discussion – but nonsensical rants belong elsewhere.
Oh, and before you claim that I’m an unreserved apologist for the writers here – keep it to yourself, that’s just more of the same mode of operation for you, which is to kill the messenger rather than rebut their claims with alternatives that have reasons explaining how those alternatives were reached.
So please, CraigSummers, practice more on your diction, elucidation, and fact-checking, and spend less of your time on killing the messenger.
“……..That you feel that The Intercept and Glenn Greenwald are biased is obvious, what is not evident are the actual facts you used to reach this conclusion……ad-hominem innuendos”
Speaking about lack of facts, I have no idea which passage you are referencing. But as far as personal attacks, Greenwald has written the book on them which – if you actually read what I wrote – you’ll notice that I pointed this uncomfortable fact out. He is simply in the business of slandering journalists who don’t agree with him. This extends to judges etc.
“……..and buttressing your defense that your prejudicial comments are “A-OK” because “gosh, Glenn Greenwald does it too” is not an argument for something,…..”
No, but it is an argument that you are unwilling to criticize Greenwald for the same thing you are criticizing me for – and still without any references to my original post. In other words, there is nothing for me to respond to.
But thanks.
In your view, is Amnesty International in the business of slandering countries it doesn’t agree with?
“…….”………..In your view, is Amnesty International in the business of slandering countries it doesn’t agree with?….”
I really shouldn’t have to post this for you Jose.
“………Amnesty International (commonly known as Amnesty and AI) is a non-governmental organisation focused on human rights with over 3 million members and supporters around the world. The stated objective of the organisation is “to conduct research and generate action to prevent and end grave abuses of human rights, and to demand justice for those whose rights have been violated.”[3]….”
It’s western based organization, but – – believe me – this is just the opposite of Greenwald’s objective and the objective of people like you who relegate human rights far down in importance if the US is not involved – like Russia propping up Assad who is responsible for the death of 140,000 people. I know you really don’t care about that Jose (because you are US-obsessed).
Call it what you will, Craig. I don’t care. But there are no countries on Earth that do the things the US does in the international arena. Of course I (and anyone with geopolitical awareness) would care if Russia did the same things the US does. But no country comes close to US international behavior, not by a long shot. Period.
“…….But no country comes close to US international behavior, not by a long shot. Period……”
Well then. It explains quite nicely your admiration for Mr. Greenwald. You have two things in common. You both are US-obsessed and neither one of you give a shit what goes on in the rest of the world.
Take care.
You lost me here:
“The Intercept continues to evolve into a predictably anti American site.”
Since when is transparency “anti-American”???????
Who do you work for???? Obviously you are not working for or in the interest of U.S. Citizens.
“………Since when is transparency “anti-American”???????……”
If Russian intelligence had released this information, would you call it “transparency” or could you conjure up some other possible motive? I’m not saying that Greenwald equates to Russia or supports Russia in their aggression in Ukraine, but – as I mentioned in my first post – motive is important. The mission statement of the Intercept:
“……..Our long-term mission is to produce fearless, adversarial journalism across a wide range of issues. The editorial independence of our journalists will be guaranteed. They will be encouraged to pursue their passions, cultivate a unique voice, and publish stories without regard to whom they might anger or alienate. We believe the prime value of journalism is its power to impose transparency, and thus accountability, on the most powerful governmental and corporate bodies, and our journalists will be provided the full resources and support required to do this……”
The focus is clearly only one government which on occasion, he will extend to Israel and the UK. I would think that government transparency would include countries that just annexed a portion of another country – and is involved in propping up a brutal dictator in Syria. “Adversarial” only applies to the west (mostly the US). All others when it comes to human rights, and civil rights and civil liberties are simply ignored presumably because they don’t matter.
And to top off the bullshit, Greenwald even cited RT to criticize US journalists over the RUSSIA illegal invasion. Does Greenwald believe that RT is independent? It was Putin who recently shut down two state news sites. Basically, Greenwald threw the rights of Russians down the tube to make a point. He also in another article cited the Chinese government for adhering to international law arresting a terrorist (throwing the Chinese people under the bus to make a point).
Greenwald’s history of journalism (prior to the NSA revelations) is classic far left wing attacks against the US, and to a lesser extent Israel (which is why it’s suspicious that the US-Israel joint venture on the stuxnet virus was published). He likes to call it adversarial journalism, but, in reality, it’s classic anti Americanism.
In your response to my first question, you erroneously assume that “Russia” is inherently the “enemy” which I, as a dutiful subject of the US government “crown” should be sufficiently brainwashed by now to accept as a necessary concept of my allegiance to the United States of America.
This is a faulty assumption.
Answer my next question: Who do you work for????
You are so busy accusing others of subterfuge yet you blatantly engage in clear practice of the same.
You should be ashamed of yourself!
“……..In your response to my first question, you erroneously assume that “Russia” is inherently the “enemy” which I, as a dutiful subject of the US government “crown” should be sufficiently brainwashed by now to accept as a necessary concept of my allegiance to the United States of America…..”
Eastern Europeans should be leery of Russia since they were under their domination for decades. The illegal invasion and annexation of Crimea explains quite nicely why so many former Soviet satellites opted to join the EU/NATO.
“…….Who do you work for????…..”
A small Canadian gold exploration company. Who do you work for?
“……..You should be ashamed of yourself!…..”
I’m fairly OK with me. My father Vladimir has nearly disowned me.
Eastern Europeans should be leery of Russia since they were under their domination for decades.
My husband defected from the former Czechoslovakia while it was still under Russian control. That experience made it quite easy for him to recognize the same propaganda techniques as they evolved here in the US.
He was leery of Russia to the point of leaving family, and everything else, behind in order to start a new life in a country he thought would provide him with true freedom. He is still leery of those who pretend to provide freedom, while actually raping the Constitution – a document he had to learn about in order to earn his citizenship – of all the freedoms that it used to guarantee. He knows what it’s like to be lied to by his rulers. So do I, and I’ve never lived anywhere but the heartland of the United States.
I certainly appreciate your viewpoint although I don’t agree comparing the US to the USSR. At any rate, thanks.
The Intercept is not Amnesty International, so what’s the big problem with this? It’s a US-based media outlet, focused on US matters. What are the 2 countries that the US has a “special” relationship with on national security issues? The UK and Israel. No surprises there.
Really, try to come up with less transparent BS.
The release of the partnership between the US and Israel on the Stuxnet virus is one example of released information that was clearly politically motivated i.e., simply an attempt to undermine American-Israeli relations (whether you had anything to do with releasing this information or not).
This strikes me as a silly statement unless comparable stories were either released or withheld based on the nation involved (i.e. – a certain type of info on Israel released / withheld; a certain type of info on Palestine released / withheld). Otherwise you could say the same thing about every story and country mentioned thus far.
As to the government on its knees comment – no, I don’t like that either. The most positive thing I can say to that is, the comment came just as the stories were released and safety was probably at the forefront of everyone’s minds. Snowden has done some things I don’t like, though. Staying in Russia and raising questions over whether or not they’ve accessed information; while also implying he took what presumably is a sort of insurance policy of damaging documents – no, I don’t like that. How much is too much to ask in order to be the ‘perfect’ leaker, though? (Risk your life and also no insurance policy, no asylum, etc.). That’s debatable, and I do think a lot of what he revealed is very important. ‘Perfect’ goes both ways – if we held the government to the same standard and there was nothing *to reveal except crucial, reasonable policies that we all agreed should have stayed secret, we wouldn’t be having this conversation either.
Dang, first paragraph above should be in italics, it’s a quote.
Thanks for your response. Nick.
“…….This strikes me as a silly statement unless comparable stories were either released or withheld based on the nation involved……”
Well, we really don’t know what was withheld. But there is no reason to expose this particular story. This has absolutely nothing to do with the Fourth Amendment – nor the privacy rights of people world-wide. It had nothing to do with the bulk collection of data. The story exposed the attempt to delay the Iran nuclear program without resorting to bombing. This was simply an attempt to undermine US-Israel cooperation and relations. That is very typical of far left wing political activists like Greenwald – and many of his supporters.
Thanks, although I am a Nic (Nick is for boys). We’ll have to just disagree on this one – they released plenty of stories involving plenty of countries, I don’t see that story as evidence that they were somehow specifically targeting Israel as opposed to going by a framework involving levels of transparency (X type of program, in general and not in relation to this or that specific country, should be reported on).
I don’t know what you would have him do about “staying in Russia.” The US government made sure that he was stranded in Russia, and then asylum was given to him there. What choice did he have. And for the questions raised about if Russia has accessed information: Snowden has said that he took no documents with him, and has no documents with him. So it shouldn’t be blamed on Snowden that people of questionable mental stability and reason, such as Peter King, and people of whom there is not question is a pathological liar, such as is Mike Rogers making that claim is inevitable just as it was inevitable that Daniel Ellsberg would be called a traitor during his time of the Pentagon Papers.
As for the “insurance policy of damaging documents, read below from an interview with Barton Gellman:
Interiew
The choice he had was to come home. At which point, the argument switches to how badly he may or may not be treated. I’m not minimizing that, but if he’d stayed in the US, concerns about where that data could end up wouldn’t have been fodder (at least not to the same degree) for the speculation mill. And taking documents as a means of “I have this on you, understand?” protection doesn’t have to involve a suicide switch.
That’s why I said it comes down to a matter of reasonable expectations, which is subjective. Does a leaker have to go all-out martyr about it and, in addition to one set of risks, willingly send themselves off to prison? At what point do we say “Hey, you’ve taken on enough, you don’t have to ____, you’re justified in doing ____ for protection”? But that’s more a debate about Snowden personally. For me, I think he’s human like anyone else and the fact that I’m not nominating him for sainthood doesn’t mean the information he revealed wasn’t a good thing or that the part of his actions, where he revealed it, wasn’t a good thing. What label you want to slap on him as a public figure is somewhat tangential. And to the degree that it isn’t – even with the criticisms he’s gotten, I think he turned the tide in a huge way regarding how people perceive issues like this. The perception I got of him vs. Bradley Manning via the media, for example, was very different.
No.
I don’t even care or consider the “martyr” aspect or the “face the music” nonsense or any of that shit. Why the fuck should anyone just lay down and take whatever the corrupt system chooses to hand them, when they have the smarts, ability and where with all for alternatives? They shouldn’t. And as for this, “but if he’d stayed in the US, concerns about where that data could end up wouldn’t have been fodder (at least not to the same degree) for the speculation mill.” People such as Feinstein, Rogers, Clapper, Alexander, Hayden aren’t speculating, they’re lying. They’re convinced that lying is a very large part of their job description. No matter if Snowden were in solitary confinement, they’d still be lying about him and about everything that is being revealed.
That all makes sense to you because you have a clear set of good guys and bad guys. I don’t have a problem with that, I just don’t see it that way. Switch out all the names in your post (why should your mental version of ‘bad guys’ just lay down and take whatever… when they have the smarts, ability….; why is it that making certain inferences about your version of the good guy ‘just doesn’t make sense’ – would those same logical leaps make sense if it was someone else in question? Do you feel comfortable filling in the gaps with less than honorable intent when the Feinsteins, Rogers, and Clappers are being discussed?).
As I said, I don’t dislike Snowden (I can’t say I like him either, because mostly he’s an enigmatic blank in my mind), and I appreciate much of what he did. But I don’t rule out the idea that he was engaging in skin-saving in addition to doing something self-sacrificing. Was it justified? Or, did he have valid reasons that *aren’t equal to skin-saving (i.e., thinking the example of him in jail would terrify future whistleblowers so badly that it was a worthy trade-off)? I don’t know, and as I said, I’m not even that invested in the idea that he has to be a saint. I can appreciate a particular act without it being an endorsement of the guy’s entire life.
Sorry, that’s not meant to be confrontational. What you accept, in the case of Snowden, is that he had a decent recent for doing whatever he did, a morally relatable one, so his subsequent actions are justified. But I think the same thing about the NSA, ultimately. I don’t *like what they did, I think they needed someone to point out that it was a bad idea, but I think it resulted from real security concerns that formed the mental backdrop for their moral reasoning, not some sense of ‘bwahahaha!’. Very few people get a blanket condemnation or endorsement from me. (GG is kind of an exception because he’s better than sliced bread, although the unfortunate irony is that he doesn’t endorse that kind of black-and-white thinking. It’s terribly confusing.)
I see absolutely no honorable intent by any of those people. Also, they all hold the power. Snowden held and holds no power. If the did hold power such as they do, he would not need to be in Russia because these United States are for Liberty and Justice for Some. How come, for example, Clapper still has his powerful job and is under no threat of prosecution?
My so called “good guys” bad guys” label you’re applying to me is not without historical perspective. The switched out names have a long history. Feinstein, Clapper, Alexander, Rogers are proven liars and power mongers who have grossly and for years abused their power and contributed to destroying lives. Snowden’s background is, while impressive, not nearly as relevant to how I consider his actions with the documents to be commendable as the histories of the other mentioned people’s actions are abhorrent.
Just take the most recent history of each of those “bad guys/gals” as example. Each and every one of those people have repeatedly bald faced lied in the face of these revelations. And in so doing they are attempting to perpetuate the dangerously out of control surveillance state, and they are attempting to not only prosecute the whistle blower, but prosecute him for charges that could result in decades in prison. That’s fucking “bad guys” with capital B G. It’s called prosecutorial overreach – such as what contributed to the suicide of Aaron Swartz. That sort of power grabbing action is destroying lives and our society.
“I see absolutely no honorable intent by any of those people.”
As I said, in light of that opinion, your post makes sense. But I don’t agree with you on that point. Different priorities, different background? Yes. Bwahahaha? No, I don’t see it. As to power dynamics – I agree that’s important, but can only go so far as a rationale in terms of “Hey, it’s ok for X to do Y to Z, because Y has the most power.” While it’s a factor, that line of reasoning ends in moral chaos pretty quickly. I’m glad for the collision of perspectives in these stories, but I don’t view them as “good meets evil”, more “fighting overseas security state meets at-home citizens with at-home citizen concerns”.
Chelsea Manning stayed in the US. Was that at all helpful to her?
Snowden is a brilliant guy. It’s clear that he learned from the experience of previous whistleblowers, like Manning, Drake, Binney.
Thanks, Craig. I always enjoy a good laugh.
“…….Thanks, Craig. I always enjoy a good laugh……”
That’s simply arrogance, Jose – but it completely reflects the attitude of Greenwald when there is disagreement with the release of top secret information..
But often it *is the 4th Amendment, or the same privacy right applicable to citizens of the rest of the world.
But even when it isn’t privacy rights per se, Greenwald already addressed above other reasons for disclosing classified documents:
USGov officials have been both lying — to the Congress and the courts — as well as contriving secret law to do that which the American citizenry (and even Congress) has no idea of. In a democracy, this cannot stand.
As to revealing the Israeli-U.S. partnership in the Stuxnet virus matter, yes, we should know that. Many of us feel the U.S. should stay out of the acrimonious dynamic between Israel and Iran, and I *certainly want to know when my government is corrupting Iran’s computers on behalf of Israel.
“…….As to revealing the Israeli-U.S. partnership in the Stuxnet virus matter, yes, we should know that. Many of us feel the U.S. should stay out of the acrimonious dynamic between Israel and Iran, and I *certainly want to know when my government is corrupting Iran’s computers on behalf of Israel……”
You are probably the worst one when it comes to blaming AIPAC for US foreign policy. But the US and Israel did this as a part of a joint venture. The US did that on behalf of the US – and Israel. As opposed to US and Israel cooperation as you are, I’m not surprised that you would support revealing that information. Is there anything that the NSA does that you believe you have NO right to see as a citizen of the US? In other words, should we just disband the NSA and the CIA?
Regardless, the release was politically motivated.
Damn lack of preview option, Or edit or delete.
Didn’t mean all italics.
@CraigSummers
You are much too forgiving. The NSA after all was responsible for vetting and hiring Snowden. To say he ‘lied’ during his interview is the most pitiful of excuses. There appears to be a culture of failure at the NSA – everything is someone else’s fault – sneaky contractors, malicious journalists, an unsympathetic public, a corrupt congress, a clueless president. Well that’s all true – but it’s still not a valid excuse.
What the US should do is declare war on China and Russia. That will focus the national resolve. One of your wise officials said to never let a good crisis go to waste. Well, first you have to create a crisis. Some might argue you need a strong leader to undertake these measures, but I say – go ahead and create the crisis and a strong leader will inevitably emerge. This should be easy to do – you don’t even have to fake evidence of weapons of mass destruction.
In the meantime, a rogue agency such as the NSA, without any supervision or leadership, will simply continue to be a horrible embarrassment to the United States, regardless of who does the reporting.
“………In the meantime, a rogue agency such as the NSA, without any supervision or leadership, will simply continue to be a horrible embarrassment to the United States, regardless of who does the reporting…….”
Well, at least that is a valid and reasonable opinion. However, is rogue the correct word? Even if they overstepped their mandate, that doesn’t necessarily mean they didn’t have our best interests in mind.
Mr, Summers,
I honestly tried to extract a coherent argument from your comment. I failed.
And by the way, I think everyone who works at these taxpayer funded rapacious corporations doing the work of secret and authoritarian liars should do whatever peaceful means necessary to expose the massive degradation of civil liberties. I see a much greater threat to society from people who have allegiance to sociopath institutions than I do from people who tell me the truth.
“………I think everyone who works at these taxpayer funded rapacious corporations…..”
I’m lost. Who are you talking about?
I am talking about the 483,000 individuals that have “Top Secret” access working for for profit corporations on behalf of the NSA.
http://www.salon.com/2013/06/11/500000_contractors_can_access_nsa_data_hoards/
@ CraigSummers,
You have offered a false analogy as your rebuttal, where you say that:
This is simply because Mr. Greenwald has brought facts that I, so far, cannot criticize because they are verifiable; and you have brought no facts whatsoever to be verified or discredited.
Opinions and innuendo are just that. If you have facts in your post(s), please list them so that I and others here can either verify or discredit them as needed.
And CraigSummers, regarding your claim that:
I will repeat what I said earlier:
Glenn made clear claims that you failed to substantively address whatsoever, other than by continuing with the mistaken idea that “killing the messenger” as a method of disproving something will ever provide a credible refutation of anything that anyone says on here.
Attacking what someone writes is not the same as attacking the person who wrote it (the latter being your preferred, and perhaps only method of response, as we’ve all seen) – and the fact that you cannot even understand this basic concept of debate is lamentable, to say the least.
Really, I’d like you to challenge the ideas here with counterclaims that don’t include character assassination and innuendo. Whether you’re capable of it remains to be seen.
Best regards, Sillyputty
“……..This is simply because Mr. Greenwald has brought facts that I, so far, cannot criticize because they are verifiable; and you have brought no facts whatsoever to be verified or discredited…..”
That doesn’t change the fact that he is slandering people that disagree with him. You clearly agree with him, thus you choose not to criticize him for the same things you criticize me for. In other words, you are kissing his ass. Comprende?
Be specific and I will answer.
Best Regards
CraigSummers
blockquote>”You clearly agree with him, thus you choose not to criticize him for the same things you criticize me for.
No, to be specific, I do not agree with Mr. Greenwald, I agree with the facts and information that has been presented. I could care less about the messenger, that is irrelevant to me.
And there you go again, trying to besmirch a message by killing its messenger, rather than, yet again, bringing any facts whatsoever to bolster any of the claims that you make, or to specifically refute the claims of anyone.
As far as your claim that Mr. Greenwald is “slandering people that disagree with him,” you’ve again offered no proof of this – and even if you had, that’s his problem, not mine, so I could care less.
To repeat:
No, CraigSummers, to be specific, I do not agree with Mr. Greenwald, I agree with the facts and information that has been presented. I could care less about the messenger, that is irrelevant to me.
Here’s how I really see it:
CraigSummers, you steadfastly go on with your “argument” by claiming that:
CraigSummers, there you go again, trying to besmirch a message by killing its messenger, rather than, yet again, bringing any facts whatsoever to bolster any of the claims that you make, or to specifically refute the claims of anyone.
As far as your claim that Mr. Greenwald is “slandering people that disagree with him,” you’ve again offered no proof of this – and even if you had, that’s his problem, not mine, so I could care less.
To repeat:
*Apologies for the html error – miss one little < and it all goes to hell…hope this one turns out…:)
At least i understand why you call yourself silly. Be specific, please.
Discussions of mere legality and constitutionality are vacuous, in my view.
There was a time when slave owners didn’t believe that they were doing anything wrong. The reason? Because it was all perfectly legal — above board. They were oblivious to the moral questions at play. Some people saw what was wrong with it — you know, those who could use their brains — but many, if not most, didn’t.
Someone might say that’s an exaggerated comparison. But here we are, a century and a half later, and there are lots of people who think that, as long as it’s done to non-US persons outside the US, it’s perfectly fine to kidnap them, detain them indefinitely without charge, torture them, summarily execute them based on their patterns of behavior, destroy their infrastructure, hack their computers, and violate their privacy with impunity. Why? Because it’s “legal”, you see.
Now I remember why I went to the Guardian every other day to see if Greenwald had written anything long before I ever heard of Snowden. The quality of his writing and analysis is so far above anything else out there. And BTW I’m a conservative libertarian who has only read two good articles today – the other one by Pat Buchanan (re the folly of past and future Nato expansion).
Yup.
Even at “The Salon” his investigative reporting was sterling.
Glenn, a very nice summation of this complex issue that too many, e.g. Brookings’ Ben Wittes try, for whatever reasons, to trivialize the implications that these issues have on literally everyone on the planet.
The gist of all this is that because of the world wide web and the access it provides we’re all in this together whether we like it or not; and that in the end we all have to decide which method we’ll use to continue this interconnected relationship.
Will we use the current model that relies on deceit and denial; or will we opt for one that relies on transparency and a shared mutual respect for everyone’s personal sovereignty?
Kudos to the staff at The Intercept and thank you for providing us all with honest and adversarial reporting; because accurate information is the only way we’ll make our world reflect what is really happening in it, rather than what those behind the curtain would like to have us believe.
Targeting Chinese tech companies that compete with American tech companies falls under the heading of Standard Operating Procedure for the US. America did not become the most powerful economy on the planet by playing fair. Even now, with its manufacturing sector reduced to a fraction of its former size and a good sized chunk of its population either unemployed or living on starvation wages, the US still dominates economically. That’s no accident.
I’m still trying to puzzle out how Japan, at the height of its rivalry with the US in the late 1980s, suffered a devastating crash that appeared to come out of nowhere and hung around for years and years. None of the many economics articles I’ve read on it is entirely convincing. All I know for sure is that it put to rest American paranoia about the “yellow peril,” only to be revived vis-a-vis the Chinese.
“…….America did not become the most powerful economy on the planet by playing fair……”
I agree. The incredible success of the US economy today likely got its start off of the computer of some unsuspecting Chinese company during the industrial revolution.
No. It got its start from brutal slavery.
“……No. It got its start from brutal slavery……”
Well, of course. We are a racists nation. I’m sure Glenn will get around to one of his favorite accusations directed at all white Americans – past and present – some time in the near future.
Thanks for your predictable answer.
“……No. It got its start from brutal slavery……”
Well, of course. We are a racists nation. I’m sure Glenn will get around to one of his favorite accusations directed at all white Americans –
I’m sure you can provide us all with a link where he’s done that, no? Else we might suspect you of engaging in, oh, I suppose it could be called lying.
And, even if you could provide us with a link to Glenn saying what you spuriously charge him with, there is still a rather stark difference between an accusation and a demonstrable historic fact. As usual, you fail to understand that difference – as well as the economic realities of the antebellum south – exhibited here by the fact that you label the monetary advantages of historical slavery in the United States – i.e. white men (mostly men, since they didn’t think much of women possessing property at the time) owning human beings of African descent – as mere accusations against white men.
Of course white men who live in current times had nothing to do with antebellum slavery. Apologists, however, who consider the existence of slavery as mere accusations, OTOH, are really quite pathetic.
Are you sure you work for a Canadian gold mining company? Because it seems as if you would be more comfortable working somewhere a bit further south that proudly lofts the Confederate flag on a daily basis.
CraigSummers is only interested in killing messengers here. Time to shun this behaviour and let him bludgeon Mr. Greenwald and others elsewhere.
Kind of off-topic, but one thing I can’t quite understand is how the US manages to maintain a low inflation rate. I mean, its debt is about 100% of GDP. They say that Venezuela is a huge over-spender. But their debt is only like 50% to 70% of GDP. I’m not an economist, but I wonder, do economists actually understand how this works?
The system is rigged.
Hi All,
Why is no one challenging this BS (sorry for the language); http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/03/the-fake-conspiracy-to-overthrow-the-worlds-autocrats/284432/#comments ? See also a fantastic article here on Washington Post by similar sources as ”independent experts”.
One Wikileaks-published cable is sufficient to demolish this narrative.
Um…
1. Quite being such a bossy boots, I blame Snowden for everything that goes wrong in my day, including when restaurants screw up my order and I realize midday that my left sock doesn’t match my right, and that’s my perogative, thank you very much. I just look at the sky and yell “Snow-*den!” and shake my fist in an angry manner, it’s a great stress relief.
2. I dislike conflict, and I do not understand all your talk of adversarial relationships. If adversarial relationships must exist, the appropriate conclusion is for them to end in a touching moment of mutual understanding after your dog disappears in a rainstorm and your adversary helps you find it and afterwards you realize you have the same wacky quirk of putting chocolate sauce on tacos. Possibly you were under-exposed to After School Specials as a child and this explains your unfamiliarity with the Zeitgeist and penchant for saying not very nice things.
3. I suppose I can see your logic regarding drones if, say, China was droning people. That would be kind of scary and I might applaud an adversarial Chinese press in that case.
In all seriousness, I think your brand of adversarialism sometimes comes back to assuming the worst about others. Perhaps that’s always necessary, for someone to hold up that picture, in the same way we don’t wear seat belts when planning for a best case or even average case scenario. But it tends to look overly harsh to me. Even so, I respect your right to do journalism and think you’re brave to do it at a time when so much is up in the air regarding press freedoms (when there are comments about adversarial relationships going “both ways” in a dynamic with a rather pronounced mismatch of power and information gathering; talk of deciding who is and isn’t a journalist, which, if regulated by the government, does seem like a rather glaring conflict of interest, etc.). Besides, it’s super cute when *you do it.
Why blame Snowden? It’s all Obama’s fault!
Obama is very snuggly looking and I love him. I don’t dislike Snowden, it’s just that he’s always causing the deli to give me toasted bagels when I specifically said sliced but *not toasted, so I have to curse his name to the skies.
A free press is as established a right of the people as any in the Constitution.
There is a war on the rights of the people that the Press is enabled, by the constitution, to fight and engage in on behalf of the people. So many rights have been found to have exceptions that the meaning of the word right has been diminished to being a “privilege granted”.
Sen. Dick Durbin says it’s time to say who’s a real reporter:
http://www.suntimes.com/news/otherviews/20978789-452/sen-dick-durbin-its-time-to-say-whos-a-real-reporter.html
“But who should be considered to be a journalist?
For a few years now, a bill to protect journalists from revealing their sources and documents has been making its way through Congress. With no current federal statute recognizing a privilege for journalists, the so-called “media shield” law attempts to establish one.”
The “privilege for journalists” is only an erosion of a right under the rhetorical guise of an enhancement.
Unfortunately, I would guess that a significant minority if not majority of Americans think that economic espionage on the part of the US is a legitimate function of the national security apparatus. Likewise, it is illegal, immoral and unjustified on the part of other countries against the US. We’ve been brainwashed to believe that the US is above all others. I can only hope that newer generations of Americans don’t buy into this American Exceptionalism schtick.
If you go on NBC’s Sunday show, Glenn, do NOT let them do your makeup. Everyone looked like plastic clowns today.
Notice that the New York Times refused to provide technical details of the hack because the administration said it would violate national security. All it does is preserve the knowledge in the hands of the NSA and the Chinese, so the rest of us can’t defend against it.
Mike Rogers just argued that because NO NSA intelligence officials can NOT say Snowden is NOT under the influence of Russia, then he IS! Now we all agree!!
OK, NOW is the time for all good lawyers to kick the rhetorical shite out of bad liars!
THAT being a GIVEN, MIKE wants the American people to UNDERSTAND without any context that if we had some he is correct and Snowden and crew are LYING. He then conflates Putin’s aggression with Snowden.
OMG, this is amateur hour! What a dolt! I’d be EMBARRASSED if I had to support THAT argument. Who’s miserable job is THAT? Why did he go there pre-positioning such idiocy when he made such a LAME claim. Same claim as before. With NO evidence and NO standing, MIKE can claim ANYTHING. His favorite claim: NEVER HAPPENED.
NO ONE at the nut house can convincingly claim I am NOT Queen Mary, thus bow DOWN, Mike of Dodge.
I say he’s an alien invader and needs to be slingshot out of here. Who can argue that he is NOT?
He’s an IDIOT serving idiot burgers to US! Who’s eating it? Anyone who would is defective!
I surrender my MLK platitudes this Sunday, sir. Blast that bum with your bulleted solid points, sir. Someone make a music hiccup out of it!
http://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/rogers-nsa-leaker-snowden-under-russian-influence-n59881
Pre-Snowden I don’t recall anyone saying that if, in fact, China is hacking US companies, then that’s perfectly fine — it’s what countries do — no big deal, etc., etc. Google was nearly ready to close up shop in China over suspicion of government-led cyberattacks.
When the roles are reversed, well, then that’s perfectly justified, we’re told. The argument advanced to support this view is one of “false equivalence”, because, see, the US is superior/exceptional and China inferior, or something to that effect
The key point is that international norms of behavior (or international law, if you will) are either universal, or they don’t exist at all. If some countries claim to be exempt from them, then all countries can claim that. The international community does not recognize (or it shouldn’t recognize) some countries as being saintly and exceptional, such that they can do whatever they please, even if the exact same behavior is not permitted of other countries.
Excellent clarification on these matters.
BenWizner’s quote sums up Snowden activities quite well:
“…the number of documents that Edward Snowden has made available to the public is **zero**”.
In regard to “responsibility” for public release of Snowden’s documents (or related information from other sources), this is the role and jurisdiction of a so-called “Free Press”.
It is the CONSTITUTIONAL DUTY of news agencies to discover and investigate information that relates to stories that impact the public. As they publish such information, they have an editorial duty to balance the information in a manner that protects un-named sources, and properly considers the safety and security of those who are named in the story. When this is done properly (and it is in most cases), the brilliance, power, and enlightenment of a “Free Press” is bestowed upon the citizens, as was intended in the U.S. Constitution.
As a final point, entities who oppose such a process, and/or criticize the proactive role of a critical Free Press, are fundamentally at odds with the U.S. Constitution.
Thanks for clearly stating that human beings without a U.S. passport have human rights as well. That’s a point I’ve been sorely missing in lots of the debates.
The idea that what U.S. government does to non-Americans isn’t newsworthy is idiocy.
Everything the government does abroad is based on the authority it claims comes from the consent of the governed. The U.S. is government of the people, by the people, and for the people. To suggest that those people have no vested interest in knowing what the government does in their name shows a stunning lack of understanding of the nature of government, especially democratically elected government.
We need to get past this notion that modern threats trump the traditional power balance between government and citizens. Governments, along with their media partners, will always use exaggeration and fear-mongering as a tactic to expand their powers when the real fact of the matter is that the threats we face are often created because of past governmental abuses of power.
If we adhere to the warped logic of the media/government complex, then exposing the secret Bush-era CIA torture program was not legitimate journalism or whistleblowing because the U.S. government has declined to treat the program as a crime and now refers to the program as one of “enhanced interrogation techniques” instead of torture. Indeed, the only person prosecuted in connection to it was the person who exposed it — John Kiriakou.
Odd thing though, at the time the CIA interrogation program was revealed to the public I don’t recall any Democrat – and certainly no self-professed liberal Democrat – complaining that the revelation was an act of treason instead of legitimate journalism.
Glenn another well written defense of Edward Snowden. Does anyone here really think that the U.S. accusing China of spying/hacking us all the while we have been doing it to them a Reveleation? much less a matter of national security? What a joke ..like the Chinese didn’t know we were doing it. I’m sure they did and probably the exact reason they try like hell to do it to us. Our shadow government has done more harm for our national security than journalism ever could. If Americans wonder why the rest of the world is pissed off at us and wants to attack us look no further than to the alphabet boys (NSA,CIA,FBI,DOJ, etc etc).
And what happens when some portion of the world DOES attack America for the insidious acts of its secret agencies?
Those secret agencies get more funding.
It’s a cycle.
Reading this only makes me furious at Edward Snowden. If he hadn’t leaked all those documents to Greenwald, we’d be reading devastating columns like this five times a week on a variety of issues.
Let’s face it, Greenwald has acquitted himself well as a reporter, but as a commentator he’s incomparable. No one else writes like he does. And I can’t dismiss the theory that Snowden is actually an agent of the dark side, and his sole intention was to deprive the world of Greenwald’s opinions for as long as possible. If the cost turns out to be a few phony reforms, the net gain is enormous.
So, today I’m joining the noisy, rancid twelve-year-olds whose cry is “Dump It All!” GG, just dump it all in the lap of Laura or Peter or anyone named Ryan and get back to doing what only you can do. We’re all going to hell. We all want to know why. And we want to know it five times a week. And I’m not being entirely facetious.
Right on Barncat! Dump it all, dump it all!!!!!! lol, but alot of us do know why we are going to hell, because of our govts. corruption and we the people will be the ones that one day will pay for it. It used to be “Truth, Justice and the American Way!” now it is Lies, Abuse of Power, and the Nazi Way”
Yup, incomparable. All of the good points are lining up to catch the Greenwald bus.
Concerning the UPDATE:
Yes, I know, we are suppose to shut up when the government behaves in outrageous (but technically legal) ways for some perceived short term gain. Most likely it is somebody’s economic or political gain, but of no use to the US people.
Who created the uber-nationalistic standard that the only valid disclosures are ones involving the rights of Americans? Are we are all supposed to regard non-Americans as irrelevant? – GG
As someone living in a potential target country (Canada) and who has been legally tappable and legally killable by Americans since forever; I can say that this attitude – that only Americans matter, is disgusting and greatly contributes to the hatred felt by hundreds of millions of people around the world.
For your own good. Stop.
But you won’t.
But, Bill, we are “exceptional” and “essential!” When our sorry empire finally crumbles, we will find out where this egotism has led us (and unfortunately, the rest of the globe.)
How did you get a picture into this comment section? ;-)
Hi
Scott Horton just had Sheldon Richmond on talking about exactly that. That the US is the glue holding civilization together. Neither of them think that of course. I highly recommend Scott Horton to everyone!
As for the pic, I was a bit surprised to see that myself. It’s from my livefyre account. I don’t even like that picture! I assume that these comments are now using livefyre tech, which I think some might not like.
And mine just magically appeared. I think it’s the only one I’ve ever used (no imagination) so I guess that’s OK.
Correction. Not my Livefyre or Disqus picture, I just checked. This is odd. I must have posted that somewhere!
Freaking internet knows more about me than I remember.
Scary stuff!
Shenebraskan
If you want to know what happens to a nation when it’s empire finally crumbles, you only have to glance across the pond at the sorry state of the UK. Our masters cling to the ‘special relationship’ with the US as if their lives depend upon it (look know further than GCHQ’s willing complicity), whilst they eviscerate every decent public social institution we possess. Serfdom looms on the horizon.
Your comment deserves emphasis over and over again. The evil of USA exceptionalism is totally destructive to world comity.
Mr.Owen,Canada benefits greatly from American markets.And the last martial behavior exhibited towards Canada was in 1814?Snark?Harper is worse than the shrub was,isn’t he?And notice,Nato(Canada) and wanna be members are unofficial Americans now,as we are endeavoring to go to war for them in Europe,and as they are immune from droning,rest easier.And when we next use our nukes,they will be marked “from Canada with love” also,though maybe in a finer print than “From America with Love”.
Canada is a fiction. A lie agreed upon. Like the Swiss, who were allowed to remain neutral during the war as it was convenient for all.
Ben Wittes might not find it irksome that the US spies on it’s allies in Europe but a lot of us here find it a lot more than ‘irksome’. The US has been spying economically on Europe from it’s listening station at Menwith Hill in Yorkshire for decades, with the full complicity of HMG, (elsewhere in the east from Pine Gap in Australia). The Germans have complained of losing millions in business because of it. I say thank god for Snowden and those journalists who are prepared to take this on – we all owe you a great deal.
Remember too that not just conservatives but progressives in America are still incredibly xenophobic. I’ve heard China referred to as our enemy so many times and almost no one ever challenges the assertion (economic competitors are not “the enemy”).
I’m honestly surprised that the NYT-“all the news the CIA thinks is fit to print”-actually published that story. The whole thing kind of reminded me of Alan Grayson’s observation after one of the Obama/Romney presidential debates when he pointed out that the whole thing was just variations of the same theme-xenophobia:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rep-alan-grayson/presidential-debates-foreign-policy_b_2006120.html
Simply superb. What a joy to see what Snowden has done to stimulate a robust debate that goes to the heart of a free democratic society.
Glenn this is one of the most outstanding articles you have written. It is a profound critique that goes to the heart of a very fundamental issue.
Glenn, can you let us know when the reply I repeatedly sent through to the site in response to a comment by sandra sharratt passes through?
He’s desperately tryin’ to ignore yer ass like I am, that’s why. Jeebus cripe.
“It also yet again gives the lie to the claim that the NSA does not engage in economic espionage.”
I don’t doubt that economics are the real driving factor behind the NSA’s blanket surveillance and that “stopping terrorism” is considered not nearly as compelling but far more persuasive to the masses. I believe money is the real reason why demands to scale back the surveillance are being met with so much resistance.
Nice piece. Thank you for the information and for holding the NYT and the loyalists posing as journalists accountable.
I’m just surprised that everyone is shocked, SHOCKED, that the government is saying one thing and doing another. Or that Apple, or Sting, or Martha Stewart, or maybe even mr Greenwald would…
It’s more a case of admiring the symmetry; the US banning Huawei from operating in the US, due to concerns about the Chinese government using it to spy on American networks. Meanwhile, it was using Huawei to spy on Chinese networks. This transcends mere hypocrisy and arguably becomes a form of performance art. It logically should culminate in Chinese citizens refusing to buy Huawei products for fear of American spying, and turning instead to Apple.
It logically should culminate in Chinese citizens refusing to buy Huawei products for fear of American spying, and turning instead to Apple.
Economic psychology jiujitsu. Who’da thunk?
The NYT article included this sentence:
“Chinese state attacks have only accelerated in recent years, according to the current and former intelligence officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity about classified information.” They spoke about CLASSIFIED INFORMATION? No wonder they requested anonymity – ha ha, as if they weren’t authorized by the government to leak this classified information. Apparently ‘speak about’ must not mean ‘leak’, ‘reveal’ or ‘steal’. I wonder if these anonymouses weren’t named Clapper or Rogers.
The NYT didn’t do Snowden any favors. They could have made it clear, either in the article or in response to the many comments questioning the timing, that Snowden had no role in the timing or content of the articles published.
And in regard to choosing to publish this article about China, it’s interesting that the NYT told the Public Editor that the documents revealing that raw unfilitered data goes to Israel with no conditions was ‘not surprising’ enough to publish, while this China spying is dismissed in comments as being ‘not surprising at all, it’s NSA’s job’.
Who cares what Kaplan says. Snowpee will get off because of all the unlawful command influence publicly issued from NSA chiefs to Chairs in Congress calling for his head. I appreciate the reassurance journalists are carefully managing these documents, but I could give a rats what imperialdickhead Kaplan says.
Kaplan obviously holds to the premise that we need superior force, and is assured none of it will ever be used against US. As long as we treat others with no respect or humanity, he can’t see how eventually we shall turn on one another…say like the Sopranos? Speaking of another lame estimation of this mess…
Kaplan seems far to concerned about the financial fall out for this Fools Dominion than our moral failings. Anyone smell hair burning?
I’d have enjoyed the whole story more if we’d left Kaplan out of it. Now I’m just pizzed off. What a jerk. You know, Glenn, you don’t have to respond to jerks. MLK sure ignored them well. He prayed for their twisted souls in general terms. Let them speak their minds. We got TAPE! Tape REALLY pays off, right Ike? Roll it, Intercept. Your answer to you critics is you tail wind.
Snowpee. How old are you…9?
I believe they were all born in 1948.
Of course the Chinese are so stupid that they don’t know that the US spies on them until they see documentation of it. If US spy agencies are engaging in cyber warfare American citizens need to know that before blow-back hits. The USJAT club is doing its best to keep us in the dark. They’re not just dupes, they’re criminal dupes.
I think it’s completely plausible that the Chinese didn’t know. The US has been accusing China for years of hacking US companies. If the Chinese had information in the opposite direction, they would’ve been countering those accusations — unless the western media is so tightly controlled that such information wouldn’t have filtered through. Or unless there are strategic reasons why they would keep quiet about it.
Please learn what an ordered list is and don’t publish to the Web as though you were Bob Woodward banging it out on a Selectric. Online publishing with no HTML knowledge is a contradiction in terms, even when mighty Glenn Greenwald does it.
Sure, and when all else fails – there’s nothing of substance to complain about – assault the style of the writer. and, if you can’t complain about the style, then complain about how the characters are arranged on the screen. It’s not enough that Greenwald had to face the learning curve of cryptography, and is warned by his attorneys that travel to the US is a risky proposition, and spends his days trying to sort out what our surveillance state is up to from fragments in the Snowden docs, and has to periodically instruct his and Snowden’s detractors in some of the more basic points of logic… Yet you complain about his inability to meet your standards for HTML? I wonder. Would it be unreasonable to point out that you’re kind of a jerk?
Woodward is lickspittle.
I’d hate to think that selective political-content filtering is being done on this new page’s comments.
And I would hate to think that you are clinically paranoid. Even though you are.
I posted, more than once, YouTube links accompanied by their respective titles, of the trailers to a Joel Gilbert documentary; they never landed in the reply branch. You POS.
Are you having a bad day? I have made far worse comments than that and you took it well.
You just never know how a mentally unstable person will react!
You garrulous, egocentric, narcissistic, socially insecure, POS.
Faith in God first, and under that lies the greatest asset to humanities ability to survive, The Power of Infinite Information. The gathering of ALL information on this planet since day one of the human race is and will be till the end of time a reality. Those who decipher it, manipulate it, own it, create it, ponder it, manufactor it, be it real or an illusion, both being a fact of humanities reality is the greatest asset, the greatest weapon upon which to defend and attack, and to protect all of humanity from killing itself.
The NSA has a mission. To keep humanity alive. That is the truth. That is fact. In ten minutes on a day shortly after 9-11 I found for myself, the true mission of the NSA. It was all public information, nothing top secret, but fact.
Since 1917 and Mr. Yardley nothing has changed, information gathering is essential to surviving as a nation as well as humanity living to see another day.
It took ten minutes in Sept of 2001 to see it all, crystal clear. Your rights, my rights, humanities rights, all are important.
It all began long ago. Nothing has changed. When the military began using first what is now the world wide web, The Internet, vast networks of pod gathering Information Nets long before the public of the world began using the modern net, were created to sift, gather, categorize in tiered importance alert levels, filed electronically, neatly, quickly, automatically, from ALL search engines, all cell phone carries, Everything would be caught in the NET.
Now I learned this in 2001 shortly after two buildings I stood upon in 1987 fell to the ground. I went to work and I did not cry foul, when I learned how the NSA works and the CIA works. I do not know everything, no one does, but I do know this from everything I learned.
All humans on this planet are tagged, tracked, with 7 Billion plus entries, files on every human exists and are updated every nano second of every moment and the systems that run are multi tiered, redundant, and growing at an expontial rate. The systems learn and analyze on auto pilot.
I learned this in ten minutes of using the Internet, not long after seeing two buildings fall in New York.
Why?
I know this, people are ignorant to the realities of the subject of intelligence and information gathering and what mission is really being carried out by our NSA and CIA.
The truth is, those in power who are in charge of these missions are doing their job and if those who claim our rights are being violated, if those who complain about the reality of the necessity of information gathering and its place in humanities very survival would for a mere ten minutes look closer as I did in 2001 as to the why, the how, the who, the game of reality, information.
Survival of all humanity resides in mans free will to use his intellect to gather information and to know when and how to use it, to keep man from killing man and ending life as we know it.
Evil and Good.
Love and hate.
Faith in God
No faith in God.
War
Peace
Death
Life
Information, to be Kings of our destiny, we shall use the biggest, fastest, smartest, minds, souls, hearts, of Knights of Patriots who protect not only America, but the world, through the infinite eternal Universe of Information.
Be the Kings of it on its chess board of humanities heart, its soul, its collective heart beat or die by the ignorance of bliss, of stupidity, of blindness, of cowardess, or live by being the ruler of information.
There is and always will be as long as humanity lives, the greatest WAR fought every single nano second of each day.
That is a fact and with that fact, one should not be niave in thinking that to survive one can turn a blind eye to the true asset of information gathering and the role of the NSA.
In closing I would say to all people, from President Obama, to those who run the NSA, to you, be honest, be true, one can never run fast enough to out run truth, one can not talk fast enough to out run truth. Be honest and know that your rights as an individual on this planet do not override the collective rights of all humanity in keeping 7 plus billion people alive and from ending life on this tiny blue ball spinning called Earth.
That is a fact, get over your self conceived notion, your selfish only thinking of your own little world and think out side that box. Look out your front door, there lives 7 Billion plus more humans, far greater in value than your mere tiny heart beat. We all are important, but to keep us all alive on our tiny little space ship called Earth, there is and will be order in the chaos of mans daily battle with its course of evil and good, in its collective footsteps called life.
Now behave, love one another, help one another, trust in the fact that we all will in fact not trust one another, man is fallen and always will be. We are stupid and sinful.
Faith in God, in its nature is our greatest asset as individuals, not our money, our jobs all of our empty stuff we buy, but our spirits faith in God.
Faith above all things worldly comes first in most of our lives.
Protecting our lives our faith is the protection of, the gathering of and the manipulation of all information, ALL.
Any one who does not understand those facts of this our present reality is lost in confusion and battered by rumor and ignorance of others who are as ignorant as they are.
God Bless our NSA and CIA our President, our Congress, our country and all its people, God Bless all of our faults and sins and may God always forgive us, for we are truly fallen, and may he always have mercy, because we are going to make mistakes. But most of all, God please bless all humanity and let her soul know that in the end of all time here, love and faith always and for eternity can never be taken by evil, by darkness, that your light will always shine upon the narrow path to the truth, that in the end as was in the alpha so it is in the omega,
In life there is no greater treasure, no greater gift, than to have loved and been loved.
God Bless Always.
“US Journalists Against Transparency” club plays its role, nothing new period.
“There is no such thing, at this date of the world’s history, in
America as an independent press. You know it and I know it.
There is not one of you who dares to write your honest opinions,
and if you did, you know beforehand that it would never appear in
print. I am paid weekly for keeping my honest opinions out of the
paper I am connected with. Others of you are paid similar salaries
for similar things, and any of you who would be so foolish as to
write honest opinions would be out on the streets looking for another
job. If I allowed my honest opinions to appear in one issue of my
paper, before twenty-four hours my occupation would be gone.
The business of the journalists is to destroy the truth;
to lie outright;
to pervert;
to vilify;
to fawn at the feet of mammon, and
to sell his country and his race for his daily bread.
You know it and I know it and what folly is this toasting an
independent press? We are the tools and vassals of rich men behind
the scenes. We are jumping jacks, they pull the strings and we
dance. Our talents, our possibilities and our lives are all the
property of other men. We are intellectual prostitutes.”
Said John Swinton in 1880, At a banquet in his honor.
John Swinton (1829-1901) Former Head of Editorial Staff for the New York Times was one of America’s best loved newspapermen. Called by his peers “The Dean of his Profession”
The new born Intercept is John Swinton’s reincarnation ;)
But you see, we the people already know this and we love the facts of the media. The truth is right here right now. The big media outlets are nothing about the truth, but they are only information control devices. Twitter, this median and other one on one medians are our liberty and freedom at work.
Take them away and instant rebellion and defiance will reign supreme.
This is fact, do not take these fields of freedom away, for to do so would surely send arrows of chaos into the streets. These places or the last hallowed grounds of self defiance in the face of information control. Freedom of speech. It lives here.
Keep the faith, we still have certain freedoms.
For now.
When we don’t, the eagle and its spirit will fly to the sun as it always has.
Faith is never conquered by those who try to control to much, in over 2000 years, this is a total truth.
Faith wins
Fear of its power is always conquered by those who have it.
“Words have the power to both destroy and heal.
When words are both true and kind,
they can change our world.”
Buddha
[Gautama Siddharta] (563 – 483 BC), Hindu Prince, founder of Buddhism
“It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it”. Upton Sinclair
Life is so sad.
First, Look What Edward Snowden made the NYT, WaPo, der Speigel do !! Laugh.Out.Loud. What a sly way to remove the agency of the journalists who perormed the work to fit the pieces of the story together and the editors, lawyers, fact checkers, etc to strengthen the story and jointly take the risk to bring the story forward. That infantilization has the curious side effect of holding the reporting entity harmless at the same time it strips it of any authority. For those members of the “US Journalists Against Transparency” club (Man, that needs a trademark if anything does.) it’s also quite revealing; ie, demonstrates that they have no real agency as likely little more than automaton mouth pieces dutifully parroting what various government officials tell them to say or write. They don’t recognize the agency or autonomy of others since they never seem to exercise it themselves.
Second, a somewhat less coherent thought or muse… Given the extreme nature of globalization and the activities of multi-national corporations to evade the financial costs of citizenship in any one country (tax evasion strategies), I would hope that these “US Journalists Against Transparency” club are out there beating the drum against deals like the Trans-Pacific Partnership since US “soveringty” is so important to them.
They don’t recognize the agency or autonomy of others since they never seem to exercise it themselves.
Or, they recognize it and wish to destroy it out of fear, jealousy or both. My own HO is that there is a spectrum between what you and I have described and that the position of any one individual of the genuflecting press minions lies somewhere on that axis depending on how many years they have been immersed in the compromising Borg-like process and how much conscience they innately possessed prior to their absorption.
I would hope that these “US Journalists Against Transparency” club are out there beating the drum against deals like the Trans-Pacific Partnership since US “soveringty” is so important to them.
My perception of this is that it isn’t so much US “soveringty” that is important to them as the sovereignty of those who are perceived as holding power. Much of the time this aligns with the wishes of the US government, but in this case, that sovereignty is being sacrificed, for the most part, with the approval and encouragement of those in US government who are aligned (or suborned, depending on your perspective) by the wishes of powerful economic neoliberal interests.
This article failed to mention the obvious point that if the Huawei story appeared in the NY Times, then it was in fact sanctioned by the US government (although if someone wants to make a case the NYT finally discovered journalistic ‘principles’, please do so, as I always enjoy a good laugh).
The US pivot to Eastern Asia has been apparent for some time. It passed up a perfectly good opportunity to go to war in Syria. So it obviously suits the government’s purpose to have public discussions about an ongoing covert cyber war with China.
In a way, the Snowden revelations may have accelerated the pivot (although it was inevitable anyway). It was becoming increasingly clear that the national security buildup could not continue indefinitely with the adversary being a small group of desert nomads in Yemen.
However, this new pivot will finally justify a real military buildup.
Hi Glenn. Ltns.
>”Do you condemn whoever leaked the existence of top secret CIA black sites to Dana Priest on the ground that it didn’t involve violations of the rights of Americans? *It makes sense* that US government officials view the world this way: their function is to advance the self-perceived interests of the US government, but that’s not the role of actual journalists or whistleblowers.”
No Glenn, . .. it don’t make a lick of sense.
~ Secret CIA black sites where they torture people and lord knows what all, makes no sense.
~ The whole stupid GWOT makes no sense.
~ Iraq … and Afghanistan makes no sense.
etc., etc.
The fact that is never explicitly stated too often:
Journalists and government officials, including but not limited to the official “spokes persons”, must always have strongly adversarial relationships.
Complaints about this by government officials should receive the responses they deserve, typical of offended monkeys and apes. Similar behavior should result when journalists hang around and lap up the drippings of excess power.
Seems like the “actual journalists” have been publishing a lot of stories like this one, stories that show NSA doing EXACTLY what a spy agency SHOULD be doing. Makes me wonder…. are they ‘flipping’ Snowden’s purposes to serve the opposite, or are they just so hopelessly stupid that they think any sort of spying is wrong? I’m inclined to believe the former, but media are so overwhelmingly stupid that the latter is also possible.
I appreciate your discussion and your overall idea! Thank you.
I do have a major disagreement with one concept regarding the ‘function’ of Our Govt Officials. I’m not saying they are not doing as you wrote, I am saying they are failing to act in accord with their Oath of Office, Our Constitution, and especially the concepts of Rule of Law!
REF: “It makes sense that US government officials view the World this way: their function is to advance the self-perceived interests of the US -Government,… .”
‘They’ may well be doing just that, but its certainly not “their function”. They must be taken to task for failing their functional duties!
Well, I hope it is not their function to advance someone else’s perception of those interests, especially in exchange for goods and services received. Our job is to make sure that their perception is aligned with the needs of the people of the US.
Two points, I should have and failed to address my comment to Mr. Greenwald.
However, I see your post as more or less understanding Our Govt Employees are doing what you want. That being make things better for those that ‘can’ find the better, even if it only the 1%!
I do not see Our Constitution to be the benefit for the 1% but for all the peoples.
My post was short, but apparently you did not read the last sentence, and misunderstood the first. I have no problem with that, but I think it is important that you misunderstand what GG wrote.
1 – While we might think that what you’re saying is actually what happened you are asking the readers to blindly trust you.. I’m sure you get the irony when, at the same time, you’re demolishing the trust citizens put in the US government.
2 – Totally right on this, but the fact that some journalists published these stories can’t be separated from whoever for whatever reasons put the documents out there in the first place. If Snowden entrusted some journalists (not necessarily the ones from NYT) to decide what to publish and what not he’s co-responsible.
3 – I’d like to know how do you measure the impact and harm done to innocent people before releasing an article. To the best of my abilities I’m not sure I’d be able to fully grasp the consequences of making public the technical capabilities of NSA, and definitely not without their help, which I’m guessing you’re not having.
“While the US has been telling the world that the Chinese government is spying on them through backdoors in Huawei products, it’s actually the NSA that has been doing that.”
You have “proof” that one side did this but you’re inferring the reasons (unless you have other documents you haven’t show us) and you don’t know what the chinese did or are doing..
Basically you’re judging one side without hearing the other side of the story, there is no context.
“It shows massive deceit and hypocrisy by US officials: with their own citizens and to the world.”
I think the hypocrisy is in judging the actions and methods of intelligence agencies by a set of rules that are simply NOT PART of their world.
Intelligence agencies have their own set of rules, where spying on other countries, on your neighbour, on your competitors is allowed.
So what good is judging what they do by some bien pensant rules ?
And with that I don’t mean they shouldn’t have limits or boundaries, just that disclosing all these documents doesn’t seem the best way to achieve anything.
Spy agencies will continue to spy because that’s what they do.
“Intelligence agencies have their own set of rules, where spying on other countries, on your neighbour, on your competitors is allowed.”
In a totalitarian state that might be true. The whole point of this exercise is to point out that intelligence agencies in the US should NOT be making their own rules.
that’s not rules they made up, are just the rules of the game.. the rules everyone is playing by.
Don’t you think the other agencies do the same ?
And if you were to tell me that the US should not, I’d say that there is no point in playing that game respecting a different set of rules.
I had to sign in just to laugh and ask you, “Did you really just say that everyone plays by the rules that there are no rules? Hahahahahaha
I’m glad you did so everyone can understand how naive you are :)
@Mark: I have some questions:
1) If you are an American, do you believe that the US Constitution is the supreme law of the land?
2) Do you believe that the US Government – DOJ, FBI, NSA, CIA, Obama Administration – reliance on secret laws and secret interpretations of same, secret courts with no adversarial participation, secret/sealed court decisions, coercion of American corporations via threats of severe punishment, and prosecution of national security whistleblowers under the Espionage Act, are necessary and proportional to stopping terrorist attacks on the USA? Please respond in light of numerous recent investigations that have only documented one “terrorist” being charged as a result of the massive surveillance apparatus of the NSA.
3) You seem to believe that the public declarations of dozens of American elected representatives and appointed officials who claimed “We don’t do that” when asked about hacking and spying on foreign corporations, and friendly foreign leaders, and even millions of Americans is OK since the US spying agencies have their own rules. How do you rationalize “lying to the American people” as being OK? Do you believe that American citizens and taxpayers don’t have a say in what government is doing without any public discourse?
@Jim
1) yes
2) I think that the surveillance apparatus is definitely bigger than what it would be reasonable and takes way too many resources. And yes I’m sure that secrecy has been used also to cover embarrassing things or worse. But I don’t see how disclosing technologies and capabilities of an intelligence agency is going to help, or if you want I’m not sure that the pros of doing it outweighs the cons. Let me ask you: what do you think is the damage of these revelations ?
3) I’m sure you agree that secrecy is needed in some cases, no ? The same way I rationalize the fact that I don’t need to know where our nuclear missiles are or what are exactly the security measures to protect the President. Would you like the taxpayers (and the rest of the world) to know those things ? How can you have a public discourse on things that to be effective need to stay secret ?
It seems that we are fighting a battle that dates back milleniums : People in power lying for whatever reason. Wish there was an X-Nobel prize for the person who will find a way to show the consistent lying by each individual person in (any) government. That would destroy their (as well as their shills) value in the public’s eye, and make them rejects.
I noticed that the NYT and Der Spiegel stories differed quite a lot in tone.
The Spiegel piece was pretty straightforward – hypocritical Americans hack while telling anyone who will listen that their very victims are the bad guys. The NYT piece covered this, but then seemed to devote a lot of space to saying “Well hold on now, don’t forget about how much hacking the Chinese have done!”, complete with that amazing quote “China does more in terms of cyberespionage than all other countries put together” at the end as if it is trying to reassure readers that the USA really is the good guy (TM).
Of course, judging by the frothing-at-the-mouth comments yelling about traitor this and treason that, people are going to be upset no matter what is revealed, especially if it involves pointing out their own hypocrisy.
Out of curiosity, what were the criteria by which Snowden requested you should or should not publish articles? Was it as basic as not revealing the names/identities of spies or was it something more particular?
This UT Document from Glenn covers most of that question:
Suggestion: Intercept’s articles should have more “what it means” lines like the following, so that all readers can more easily put together the dots (after all, there are a lot of dots now, and some dating back years.
“It shows massive deceit and hypocrisy by US officials: with their own citizens and to the world. … The Huawei revelations are devastating rebuttals to hypocritical U.S. complaints about Chinese penetration of U.S. networks, and also make USG protestations about not stealing intellectual property to help U.S. firms’ competitiveness seem like the self-serving hairsplitting that it is.”
Except The Intercept doesn’t seem inclined to treat their readers as brainless… “What it means”, and the way you define it after, suspiciously sounds like “here is what you’re expected to think about this all”.
Maybe that’s exactly what you want, but I would find that annoying, if not downright insulting.
They report the facts, they give their reading of them. What conclusions *I* draw then are not for anyone to dictate… :/
Agreed, they are for you. But maybe some of us can read the technical stuff and understand it and NOT remember everything that has gone before so as to be able to put it into complete context. In my opinion, the articles are a little too dry. Perhaps a sidebar for some more “opinionated” statements? In that light, tell me why did Glenn quote Jack Goldsmith, so approvingly, if everything was so obvious?
Glenn, that you even need to publish such an explanation is proof that the public has been (perhaps) irreversibly fooled by the propaganda delivered to them by the MSM. But for others, who read news from a variety of sources, take in very little MSM news and watch none of it on TV, what you say here is nothing more than an obvious stating of the facts. The fact that anyone would need reminding of this confirms how the MSM, in general, sets out to deceive – proving itself nearly entirely useless to a thinking person. Why anyone still tunes in to this rubbish is beyond me.
When a State official deceives, it’s not deception
It’s national security.
Just like when Joe Suburb lies to his spouse about his affair with the neighbor, he’s not lying, he’s protecting her feelings. Except Joe Suburb can’t throw you into jail for telling the truth.
Good insightful analogy. Thanks for sharing.
The US government is transparent in a way. You simply have to listen to what they accuse others of doing, and then assume that is what they themselves are doing.
This doesn’t seem like a very profound insight, but it is very upsetting to the “US Journalists against Transparency” Club. If the US government is in fact transparent, their raison d’être ceases to exist.
Hey, hi Monte … fancy meeting you here :)
*I thought Glenn was kidding about a “US Journalists against Transparency Club” … but I guess not!
(quote) “stupid is, as stupid does” (/unquote) F. Gump
The very first sentence by Fred Kaplan is how he considers Daniel Ellsberg a patriot. Ya ya, I know, I know. Then he goes on to attack Snowden. But then he is a longstanding servant of US government as anyone who has perused his writings over the years know.
what a predictable jackass this guy Fred Kaplan is.
Of course, the fact that Ellsberg has proclaimed Snowden one of his heroes, has said that what Snowden did was exactly like what he did, that he was waiting 40 years for someone to do this, and that Snowden was right to flee the US always goes unmentioned by those who try to praise Ellsberg to justify their pro-transparency bona fides.
Everything said now to demonize Edward Snowden was said by the same sorts of people 40 years ago to demonize Daniel Ellsberg. Snowden critics of today pretend to admire Ellsberg because they have to, but it was exactly these sorts of people leading the charge back then against Ellsberg, saying the same things about him (including that he was a Russian agent).
…always goes unmentioned by those who try to praise Ellsberg to justify their pro-transparency bona fides.
Kaplan and company lack the cognitive dissonance gene something which is, apparently, fairly common in the populace in general. :-s
Glenn, what happened to your avatar? Did the NSA steal it while you were looking in the another direction?
My kingdom – or, at least, some handmade pepper jelly – for a preview function. :-s
…while you were looking in another direction?
I understand and appreciate the need for the commentary above but hope this will be the end of it. I’ve lost my taste for articles on either side of this debate that are strewn with references to “actual journalists.”
I suppose that one occurrence can be considered a degenerate form of “strewn”.
It really doesn’t seem that this journalist self-aggrandizement is all that pervasive – but with that said, there is the dire need to have readers capable of discerning what actual news is.
Having educated people capable of determining when the “news” is masquerading as facts, which, unfortunately, is more often than not, is the largest obstacle to change right now, because the uneducated and uniformed elect their peers, and because of this current paradigm of the uninformed electing our leaders, we get a government that is run by idiots.
The uninformed and misinformed, although lacking good judgment, are actually like-minded & motivated enough to get out and vote, unlike too many progressives over the past several decades, who talk and write an awful lot about what needs to be done, but continually fall down when it comes to effectively turning out enough people to vote in order to change this country’s direction.
So even if it does take more pissing matches between journalists (which I hope it doesn’t, but I’m not holding my breath) to get the message out, I’m all for it – so long as the discussion continues.
In the end all this verbiage is meaningless unless, as William Pitt notes, we do all get out and actually vote when the time comes:
http://truth-out.org/buzzflash/commentary/william-rivers-pitt-the-answer-is-turnout-vote-you-jackass/18532-william-rivers-pitt-the-answer-is-turnout-vote-you-jackass
Edward Snowden is a hero to me, he gave me the truth based on facts that governments are working for corporate interests and not for the people. Of course I too wish the stories were published faster but can understand why this isn’t happening. If the corporate media (networks) reported on what’s in the best interests of the people would the stories be coming out any faster?
Do you think Obama’s harsh sanctions against the Russian Oligarchs has anything to do with how pissed he is at Putin for giving Snowden asylum. It just seems odd that America can invade, drone, and spy on any nation in the world and never has any consequences for these actions, but Russia gets sanctions for non-violently taking over Crimea. I’m not agreeing with what Russia did, it just seems like the American response is overkill based on how they behave when they want to take over another countries resources. Obama has not shown himself to be at all understanding of what is really in the peoples best interests when it comes to government transparency, he comes across as vengeful when challenged.
Obama is not who his partisan cult follo-…voters thought he was:
_”Dreams from My Real Father [trailer]: A Story of Reds and Deception”_
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jrrnkKmUzo
_”Dreams From My Real Father [trailer]: The Intimate Ann Dunham – Frank Marshall Davis Relationship”_
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMUlWbO1rhk
Obama understands perfectly what is in your best interest. It’s the know-it-all personality cult that voted him into office that didn’t understand his clandestine provenance or his true intentions:
_”Dreams from My Real Father [trailer]: A Story of Reds and Deception”_
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jrrnkKmUzo
_”Dreams From My Real Father [trailer]: The Intimate Ann Dunham – Frank Marshall Davis Relationship”_
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMUlWbO1rhk
In framing your question about the US “responding” to Russia, it is wrong to leave out the admitted facts that the US spent $5 billion promoting “democracy” in Ukraine in the run up to the Crimea referendum. In fact, the Allen Dulles CIA strategy was always to finance the worst outright Nazi thugs there like Stepan Bandera. It is documented here (see chapter 5) http://www.archives.gov/iwg/reports/hitlers-shadow.pdf
So, in actuality it is far, far worse than the average reader can imagine. Renditions, torture, wholesale violation of human rights is unfortunately nothing new to the shadow government.
So true. One could go further and state that the entire raison d’être of the intelligence ‘services’ is to pave the way for US/British financial interests, whether that means supporting a mad man, toppling a democratically elected regime, assassinating a president, or creating a war on terror. It’s all a means to that end.
Thanks for the link, I never knew that part of history. It’s discouraging that it never seems to end. I wonder if hoping for a better future is just a fools errand.
Sandra – check out Paul Craig Roberts, he lays it all out re Crimea (was an advisor to Regan)
http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/
Also William Engdahl is good:
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/03/10/what-happens-to-ukraine-will-be-a-model-for-the-rest-of-us/
Also, I listend to this interview with Dr Roberts today
http://oneradionetwork.com/geo-politics/paul-craig-roberts-wolf-sheeps-clothing-lawlessness-u-s-government-march-17-2014/
Incredible stuff. Really worth the time
In the Western world the “Major Media” is increasingly discredited. Younger Journalists should realise this. Change is mandatory. From being gutless manipulated servile immoral “embedded” sub-species of Government PR hacks to Real Journalists.
Obstructions that Sharyl Attkisson ran into at CBS:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/03/13/sharyl-attkisson-vs-cbs-reporter-first-tried-to-quit-year-ago/
She has been frustrated by the management/editors decisions, that really were a form of censorship by omission. Good on her to say enough is enough. I wish her well. And hope others follow in her footsteps.