(updated below)
Selecting the year’s single most brazen example of political self-delusion is never easy, but if forced to choose for 2013, I’d pick British Prime Minister David Cameron’s public condemnation of George Galloway. The Scottish MP had stood to question Cameron about the UK’s military support for Syrian rebels. As is typical for Western discourse, criticizing western government militarism was immediately equated with support for whatever tyrants those governments happened to be opposing at the time: “Some things come and go,” proclaimed the Prime Minister, “but there is one thing that is certain: wherever there is a brutal Arab dictator in the world, he will have the support of [Galloway].”
What made Cameron’s statement so notable wasn’t the trite tactic of depicting opposition to western intervention as tantamount to support for dictators. That’s far too common to be noteworthy (if you oppose the war in Iraq, you are pro-Saddam; if you oppose intervention in Libya, you love Ghaddafi, if you oppose US involvement in Ukraine, you’re a shill for Putin, etc. etc.). What was so remarkable is that David Cameron – the person accusing Galloway of supporting every “brutal Arab dictator” he can find – is easily one of the world’s most loyal, constant, and generous supporters of the most brutal Arab despots. He has continuously lavished money, diplomatic support, arms and all sorts of obsequious praise on intensely repressive regimes in Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, the UAE, Oman, and Egypt. That this steadfast supporter of the worst Arab dictators could parade around accusing others of supporting bad Arab regimes was about as stunning a display of western self-delusion as I could have imagined . . .
Until this week. Tommy Vietor was President’s Obama National Security Council spokesman during the first term. He left to form a consulting firm (along with Obama’s former speechwriter Jon Favreau) that trades on his White House connections by forming messaging and communications strategies for corporations that have extensive business with the government, although he still literally adorns the walls of his home with multiple large posters of President Obama (see this remarkable 3-minute video profile of Vietor and his new work, which a friend sent with the title “the care and feeding of a young imperial bureaucrat” (it features a bonus pre-Snowden quote angrily condemning the Chinese for hacking)). Vietor’s function, which he performs quite faithfully, is simple: to express and embody the most conventional, defining views of official imperial Washington about itself.
On Monday, Vietor took to Twitter to try to publicly embarrass Oliver Stone for expressing support for the Maduro government in Venezuela:

This, of course, is nothing more than the long-standing favored tactic of official Washington: cynically feigning concern for human rights as a means to undermine the governments that do not comply with US dictates. To the Tommy Vietors of the world, the Maduro government isn’t bad because it “illegally jails opposition leaders”; it’s bad because it opposes US policy, refuses to obey US dictates, and defeats neo-liberal, US-subservient candidates in popular elections. That’s all obvious.
But what never ceases to amaze me is the ability of the Tommy Vietors – like David Cameron before him – to convince first themselves, and then others, that they are able to issue these denunciations without instantly being driven from the public square in shame. The very same person invoking human rights concerns to publicly condemn Stone for supporting the democratically elected government of Venezuela spent years working to support and prop up far more brutal, vicious, oppressive tyrannies, ones never elected to anything.
The Obama administration for which Vietor was a spokesman repeatedly supplied arms to the regime in Bahrain as they brutally crushed democratic protesters. They vigorously supported the repellent Mubarak regime, the long-time US ally, until his downfall became inevitable; Hillary Clinton, upon being named Secretary of State, gushed: “I really consider President and Mrs. Mubarak to be friends of my family.” Obama has continually embraced the anti-democratic Gulf monarchs ruling Qatar, the United Arab Emirates, and Kuwait. And all of that is independent of the unparalleled political, financial, diplomatic and military support which the US lavishes on Israel as it engaged in all sorts of decades-long occupation, repression and aggression.
And then there’s the closest US ally of them all, which also just happens to be one of the world’s most brutally repressive regimes: the House of Saud. During Vietor’s tenure, the administration revealed “plans to offer advanced aircraft to Saudi Arabia worth up to $60 billion, the largest US arms deal ever, and is in talks with the kingdom about potential naval and missile-defense upgrades that could be worth tens of billions of dollars more.” Five months ago, the Pentagon announced “plans to sell Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates $10.8 billion in advanced weaponry, including air-launched cruise missiles and precision munitions,” a package that “includes the first US sales to Middle East allies of new Raytheon and Boeing weapons that can be launched at a distance from Saudi F-15 and UAE F-16 fighters.” The Obama White House has repeatedly affirmed its “strong partnership” with the Saudi tyranny.
Today, Obama arrives in Riyadh to assure the Saudi monarchs that the US is as committed as ever to its close partnership in the wake of Saudi anxiety. He’ll meet with King Abdullah, “the president’s third official meeting with the king in six years.” The purpose of this trip: “trying to smooth relations with Saudi Arabia without making the longtime US ally seem like an afterthought.” Indeed, “top presidential advisors say the visit is an ‘investment’ in one of the most important US relationships in the Middle East.”
If you want to justify all of this by cynically arguing that it benefits the US to support repressive and brutal tyrannies, go ahead. At least that’s an honest posture. But don’t run around acting as though the US is some sort of stalwart opponent of political repression and human rights violations when the exact opposite is so plainly true. And if you’re someone who has worked extensively to provide the world’s worst regimes with all sorts of vital support, don’t hold yourself out as the leader of the mob condemning others for expressing support for far more benign governments.
UPDATE: After the meeting today between President Obama and King Abdullah, a “senior administration official” told CNN that, despite policy differences over Iran and Syria, “the United States and Saudi Arabia are ‘very much aligned.'” Moreover, “Obama and Abdullah steered clear of international complaints of human rights abuses in Saudi Arabia” (they also presumably “steered clear” of human rights abuses in the U.S., although CNN – which likely does not recognize the existence of such abuses – did not indicate whether this was the case). So all in all, it sounds like it was a very harmonious and constructive meeting between these two close, long-time allies and partners.


He also suspended the war on terror to go hang out with some seriously big spenders in state sponsored terrorism.
Anyone remember Douglas Adams and his literary invention of the electric monk which could believe two contradictory things at the same time? The idea was believing in things is so exhausting and time consuming so what if you could buy a device to believe in things for you.
We don’t need to buy electric monks though, we can just vote for them instead.
Not sure why I need to read this on The Intercept. This is the same sort of opinion available elsewhere on the internet, nothing new other than the byline. It’s not that I think everything on The Intercept should be an amazing new bombshell about government surveillance, but I do expect to find things I wouldn’t see elsewhere.
What a joke, the worlds #1 terrorists…..it’s all about the money….to support the industrialized military complex.
The irony is tangible. Yum.
For me, Obama has always been the Trojan Horse CIA BABY. The FIRST Bush came out of CIA everything went down hill from there. The administration needed an actor a man with a minority face and a white corporate mind to fool the USA public and as Pres. Fool the WORLD. THE UNCLE TOM in OBAMA makes me sick. Obama´s White Mother worked for CIA director in HAWAII, Her parents worked for DOD out of KANSAS, so where are we going with all this= NDAA, DRONE KILLS, KILL LIST 2 million deported, OIL SPILLS, NSA, CIA appointed Killers from the PAST Vietnam war built on LIES like Iraq, KERRY BRENNAN HAGEL all Vietnam war criminals, the rest Bob FORD WILLIAN BURNS . Centrall American Killers under Negroponte, SHAME all around US. ANY nation that hosts USA military bases or drones have no voice but for USA, BOOTS on the grouindUSA 150 countries that brig the vote against RUSSIA. CRAZY DAYS AHEAD!
Not sure what the problem is with the comments on The Intercept. Seems that it’s “touch and go” as to whether or not your comments will be posted. Perhaps some clarification from someone in the know? I’ve posted some very benign (not rude or controversial) comments, and none of them have appeared.
it appeared. :D
Love the headline, Glenn.
This much maligned sentence has a logical progression that has been mischaracterized and misunderstood on the Intercept comments section for quite some time now. Let’s try and break that down.
You do have to follow the argument sequentially – if you skip a step, it breaks the logical progression.
First: Who – (won’t do something):
”I”
Second: What – (that first person won’t do):
”mock, chide, deride or ridicule anyone…”
Third: Where – (this first person won’t do it):
”face to face at a meeting, at home… [or] in a virtual place”
Fourth: When – (this first person won’t do it):
”Anytime”
Fourth: Why: (the reasons why this won’t be done):
” for the express purpose of getting them to not speak, or to get someone to discontinue speaking altogether.”
And to check your answer:
1) I
2) Won’t ridicule anyone
3: Anytime
4. Anywhere
5: Just to try and shut them up.
So we have, paraphrased: “I won’t ridicule anyone, at anytime, anywhere, just to try and shut them up.”
Constructive, well reasoned and considerate comments are most welcome.
“The propagandist’s purpose is to make one set of people forget that certain other sets of people are human.”
Aldous Huxley
Sillyputty is that you? Could you please type that again? We have not seen enough of that particular phrase yet… it is so valuable and tasty that we should have some more please. It seems the gentleman who used that poor victim phrase to death has not been shut up at all. In fact, he is one of the most prolific posters of word salad on this site. The copious fiber in this oft-repeated phrase is enough to really move the effluent in the rest of the portions he is so liberally doling out to we needy few who try to make sense of them. Crap-Flooding is a new term to me, but it seems apropos in this case fer-sher.
Hello Sir/Madam – and your constructive, well reasoned and considerate comments is?
Humanae vitae tradendae munus gravissimum, ex quo coniuges liberam et consciam Deo Creatori tribuunt operam, magnis semper ipsos affecit gaudiis, quae tamen aliquando non paucae difficultates et angustiae sunt secutae.
Quod munus sustinere si omni tempore coniugum conscientiae arduas facessivit quaestiones, at recens humanae societatis cursus eiusmodi mutationes invexit, ut novae quaestiones sint exortae, quas Ecclesiae ignorare non liceat, utpote quae cum rebus conectantur, tantopere ad hominum vitam et felicitatem pertinentibus.
Re enim vera inductae mutationes et magni momenti et varii generis sunt. Agitur in primis de aucto celeriter natorum numero, ob quem extimescunt plures, ne mundi hominum multitudines celerius crescant quam vitae opes, quae praesto sint, admittant, atque adeo tot familiae totque populi, ad progressum nitentes, etiam maioribus incommodis exinde angantur. Qua ex re ita sollicitari publicae Auctoritates facile possint, ut huiusmodi periculum vel acrioribus rationibus propulsare velint. Accedit quod, non tantum operarum et habitationum condiciones, sed etiam increbrescentes necessitates sive in re oeconomica sive in erudienda docendaque iuventute id genus vitae statum praestant, in quo saepe onerosum sit hodie grandiori liberorum numero apte consulere.
Sillyputty is that you? – JK
Oh yeah.
Welcome, Bill Owen, and, your constructive, well reasoned and considerate comments is?
Since you both seem confused as to the author of the post here, why not try to question the message instead? Or is that the de-facto Intercept message board policy here, to attack the messenger without regard to what they say?
Your subject verb disagreement is not how I remember Sillyputty, but everything else is the same… nothing new to comment on except that you are filling up a lot of space with repetitive bullshit that everybody has to scroll through (do you make money off corpul tunnel syndrome?), but I already made that point so I will stop now (see how easy?).
Va te faire foutre.
C’est tout.
Merci.
Wow. Mufti-lingual, passive-aggressive, non-responsive, expletive ridden and rude. Quite the greeting from what seems to hopefully be only a minority of paranoids and malcontents that lurk on this site.
New posters are treated here quite differently than most other blogs but to each their own. I would however ask that you kindly take your sanctimonious, self-hating comments and direct them somewhere else. Unless of course you decide to politely reply the original comment that is. John Kelly and Bill Owen, you two seem to be just confused and discourteous rather than outright hostile and antagonistic so to the both of you I say adieu with the hope that manners if not reasoning capabilities will soon visit you both. Mona, who I hope you don’t claim as your partner seems to desire special attention and a more direct answer for her unacceptable welcome that she so unpleasantly extends to newcomers here at the Intercept. Unlike Mona I won’t hide behind a foreign language to respond: Fuck you, Mona.
Greetz Blanca! Yup, it’s just like Silly says (sorry Putty buddy, but it does just roll off the tongue bro!). I’ve run across some Mad Mona Moderator types on other blogs too but eventually someone finally shuts em’ up or they settle down or move on to greener pastures (full of bullcrap I guess!). Whelp, thanks for showing up and taking some of the crap-slinging for the rest of us (ha ha!). Too bad people here are targets right when they show up, must be the NSA screwing with these fools heads. And the way they talk you’d think these adults on here could censor their own mouths instead of running around trying to shut other people up. smh. Peace, Seth.
Snip: “This much maligned sentence has a logical progression that has been mischaracterized and misunderstood on the Intercept comments section for quite some time now. Let’s try and break that down.”
Condescend much?
Snip: “Unless of course you decide to politely reply the original comment that is.”
That’s just it though. Yours was not an original comment, now was it? It was simply a rehash of other repetitive posts having nothing to do with the subject of the article.
Snip: “and, your constructive, well reasoned and considerate comments is?”
I suppose repetition of the same phrase with the same subject verb disagreement (you could fix that before your next cut a paste… let me help you…comment is, or comments are) is accepted at other blogs as being part of a reasonable and considerate discourse? Please show me where this technique is used and not met with eye-rolling.
If have something un-recycled to say about this article, let’s hear it.
John Kelley, someone else will have to babysit you now because I won’t. What with you, Bill Owens and that fem-Nazi Mona running the show here and the passive-aggressive, rude attitudes, who’d want to comment here? I didn’t see any of you trying this crap an Marcy’s blog so I’ll just come back when she writes another article on here and the comments section opens back up. I can’t imagine that she’ll put up with anything like your Three Musketeer bullshit on somthing that she writes about. Until then it’s not adieu it’s fuck you too. Blanca.
Dear Blanca,
So nothing to add to the discussion? OK, got it.
I never said anything remotely approaching “fuck you”.
As to “running the show” why wasn’t I informed that I/we? had that kind of power?
I’m sorry you took offense, and apparently got angry enough to say fuck you, but that is your problem not mine.
Please come back soon, and do try to bring something interesting to read and comment on instead of the reiteration of the already tired chant/mantra of another user.
@Blanca –
Welcome to the Intercept. I would apologize for the behavior of the others here who have already responded to your post, but their schizophrenically contradictory actions already speak for them.
Also, as you may have already determined, not many here stand up for one another; unless, of course, it is to pounce on commenter’s here that, inexplicably, just don’t fit into their despotic paradigm.
You’ll also find, and my condolences already, that because I have commented on your post that you, too, will almost certainly become even more of a target for their unbridled derision, and suffer the effects of their runaway, paranoid delusions.
My advice is to politely ignore these troubled souls – for in their ignorance and impatience to repeatedly claim that it is the “crap-flooders” here are that are ruining it for the rest of us, they conveniently ignore the fact – as their actions with you clearly indicate, that they are the worst crap-flooders around.
Anyhow, sorry to hijack your post, and thank you for trying to reframe what I’ve been trying to say in a more creative manner than is possible for me (I’m math-challenged, it seems), and I hope the crap-flooders and haters that you’ve already met don’t ruin this experience for you.
“As citizens we have to be more thoughtful and more educated and more informed. I turn on the TV and I see these grown people screaming at each other, and I think, well, if we don’t get our civility back we’re in trouble.”
– Emmylou Harris
Best regards,
Sillyputty
Sillyputty, thanks for the greetings but with these selfish middle school jerks running the show here I won’t be hanging around. It’s just not my type of environment at all. What kind of idiots allows this to go on anyway? I like Marcy’s writing @ evenwheel and had hoped to comment on her article here but the comments seem to be closed? I do have to use Tor so maybe that has something to do with it. At least I didn’t find any Mona lurking around Marcy’s thread to get all Nazi psycho-bitch on me! I’ll come back when Marcy writes more here otherwise I’ll be at openwheel and other sites where the loons and lunatics don’t rule the roost. You were right because the attacks keep coming & John Kelly isn’t confused, he’s plain stupid. Thanks, Blanca.
What Sillyputty? Say it ‘aint so! I was only mere hours ago when we were reconciling. I hope you’re not breaking up with me again…
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/03/31/nsa-worlds-blows-top-secret-program/#comment-18955
No El B, see the link to your post below – and for heavens sake, don’t drink too much Kool-Aid here. Not only are the “hosts” here ungracious and unwelcoming, the Kool-Aid they serve isn’t good for your teeth – and if you drink too much of it it will eventually rot your brain.
Regards, Sillyputty
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/03/31/nsa-worlds-blows-top-secret-program/#comment-18955
@Sillyputty…. I followed your link and replied. Thanks for that.
As for the “Kool-Aid” … when I’m out of juice boxes I make my Sangria with it. With a shot of brandy it’s not too bad, if I do say so myself! And my teeth have never looked better … see? :-D
@El B –
Lol, well, a nice smile hardly ever hurts…and sangria, never. As for brandy…yes, please, with my coffee…:)
@John Kelley, -Mona-, & Bill Owen…. read this thread I got from “Blanca” just yesterday on the subject of my “trolling trolls”.
I think it might be Newt, or maybe it’s Wilma. It’s so hard to discern the mulitple personality disorders (or perhaps they are all the same person with multiple virtual identities, hmmmm – I’m gunna ponder that one) … To be honest, on the most recent TI post I actually agreed with barncat, Mike Wolf and Sillyputty. {Don’t pass out} I won’t provide the links (my posts get bottlenecked when I add them) but you’ll find them in the comments sections of: “NSA Blows Its Own Top Secret Program in Order to Propagandize” (if you’re at all interested).
My money’s on Wilma based on the following “Blanca” comment above:
“I like Marcy’s writing @ evenwheel”
“At least I didn’t find any Mona lurking around Marcy’s thread to get all Nazi psycho-bitch on me! ”
I just hope whoever she is means it when she says, “with these selfish middle school jerks running the show here I won’t be hanging around.” I think she’s trying to tell us we suck ass. Meh… only when I try really really hard.
Yup… Wilma … and she sure is on a tear this fine a.m.
“Unlike Mona I won’t hide behind a foreign language to respond: Fuck you, Mona.”
—- because hiding behind skirts is so 5-minutes ago.
Dammit – forgot to paste the link:
@John Kelley, -Mona-, & Bill Owen…. read this thread I got from “Blanca” just yesterday on the subject of my “trolling trolls”.
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/03/28/us-takes-break-condemning-tyranny-celebrate-obamas-visit-saudi-arabia/#comment-18762
Pepe Escobar/Facebook:
“I don’t suffer fools – gladly or otherwise. Lately some fools have been spinning I’m a Putinista, “corrupted by Moscow”, or whatever.
(Cue to Aretha Franklin’s Chain, chain, chain… chain of fools…)
Well, I’m only mildly amused – as in how geopolitics always elicits emotional responses from people who know nothing about the stakes in the game. I’ve covered hardcore geopolitics long enough to know it’s a minefield. You’re defined/branded/pigeonholed/conceptually booby-trapped non-stop by armchair know-it-alls, who are sure you’re a Stalinist, a CIA disinfo agent, even a “communist Taliban” (had plenty of those after 9/11).
So let’s make some things clear (the overwhelming majority of my readers already, intuitively, know it). I’ve always been totally independent. It’s me and me only responsible for what I write – not some entity, outfit, organization, think tank or foundation. My only commitment is to Asia Times – which, by the way, is fighting for its life, with a group of four of us trying hard to save it.
I don’t do it for the money; I do it for the intellectual challenge. Otherwise I would be a surfer, an Asian art collector, a racecar driver, a DJ or write fiction (all options considered). After years of non-stop traveling, studying and reporting, my fix is to cover all the nuts and bolts of what I call The New Great Game in Eurasia. Why bother? Even Sacher-Masoch would be puzzled. Well, it’s the thrill of the chase. That’s the game I play.
I’m not “right” or “left” – that’s too primitively parochial. I’m essentially a pre-Socratic cynic, highly hedonist, crossing over as an anarchic nihilist with some Keatsian romantic overtones – and all that to the sound of psychedelia, blues, jazz, soul and funk. Now try to pigeonhole THAT, bitches.”
I had stopped reading the comments because many seemed overtly designed to undermine the credibility of The Intercept, rather than participate in meaningful discussion.
Then they have accomplished their goal, in your case at least.
I thought I might offer a comment or two, but nope, I don’t need Mona drawing a bead on me. Just that entire “I’m in with the in crowd” , is enough to scare me off. Who on earth wants to engage a commenter who claims a special “in” with the site owner? This is a nasty thing to come here and see.
I lock horns with Mona, and the next thing I know, Glenn is on the air, saying her boyfriend’s back and there’s gonna be trouble. Yeow! Castigated online by Glenn Greenwald is not where I want to end up!
Mooser, a lot of us have an “in” w/ Glenn. He seeks to develop relationships with his readers, and has.
And you’re no crapflooder. Glenn left you entirely alone in your fine comments at Salon.
So be not afraid, my son.
Between Cass Sunstein, the maniacs, the trolls, the haters, the true believers and spambots.. there is not much space left is there?
To which of these groups do you belong Bill? Again, I am not attempting to be cute. Do you see yourself as a “true believer”?
JTRIG’s finest frequent The Intercept.
Tellin’ it like it is. The facts are obvious but a piece like Greenwald’s puts it all together in nice English prose for everyone to see and admire just how consistent the U.S. of A’s foreign policy really is.
*I* had nothing to do with Glenn’s decision about Art! Or with the overwhelming majority of his decisions.
I know Mona, but thanks for clarifying. I don’t think any of the regulars really wanted to see Art banned, but many would have welcomed a bit more circumspection on his part at times.
No freedom here.
It is just a guise to fool your eyes.
No freedom here to express alternative views.
The intercept’s notion of free speech.
jfw kelly1880 bannedagain all banned.
I see many posters here have been banned without explaination.
If Mona does not wish others to post who are we to argue.
You don’t seem to be having a problem posting… but you do have a problem with the concept of freedom of speech. It has nothing whatever to do with your ability to be grouchy, stupid, or to purposely derail the conversation taking place, or being a pain-the-ass on a web site belonging to someone else.
And please… where is this list of banned users?
You see that do you? Where? On what evidence?
If those individuals you list really are banned, I knew nothing about it. That could have been Glenn acting on his own, or after receiving complaints from other than me.
But the decisions always is with Glenn.
at least three such individuals so moderated were supporters of his who simply could not stop voluminous posting that Glenn deemed unhealthy for the comments section.
This is true. And I still miss Art with all my heart.
Now, my garden is calling my name……and it is healthier for me than endless drama over whether or not the Sword of Damocles/Greenwald hangs over anyone’s over-exposed neck. ;-}
And to be clear: *I* had nothing to do with Glenn’s decision about Art! Or with the overwhelming majority of his decisions.
Indeed, I was amused one day to find that Glenn had deleted *ME (because my comment was a reply to a vicious antisemite posting along the lines of “Hitler shoulda finished the job,” and I’d quoted the douche, who was deleted and banned.)
I’m going to ban Glenn for starting this mess.
Not going to get caught up in endless discussions which seem to have no resolution, but did want to note one thing.
If Glenn cannot tolerate having his views and actions openly challenged in this forum, then, please, by all means, ban me.
I have read Glenn since 2005 at Unclaimed Territory. In all that time I can never recall him banning anyone for challenging his writing. Never. Not once.
In fact, what I do recall is that there was never a post that didn’t entail someone objecting, often vociferously, in the comment section. And there was usually more than one poster doing that. That happened on every single post that I ever read, and I’ve read hundreds.
So anyone who insinuates that this is the case – that Glenn bans commenters due to them opposing his views and/or writing – without offering proof of any kind in the form of a link or quote, is promulgating falsehoods.
Not only that, but Glenn has a long-standing habit of taking to the comment section to directly engage his critics– far from banning them, he engages in dialogue with them. Not softball dialogue, not offering respect where none is due, but nonetheless, he neither ignores nor bans critique– he welcomes and answers it.
“If Glenn cannot tolerate having his views and actions openly challenged in this forum, then, please, by all means, ban me.” – Wilhelmena
I have read Glenn since 2005 at Unclaimed Territory. In all that time I can never recall him banning anyone for challenging his writing. Never. Not once. – Pedinska
Hence the use of the word “if.” If you had actually taken the time to read the numerous exchanges between Glenn’s self appointed representative (Mona) and myself, then you would have a better understanding of that which you have chosen to blindly address. Mona claims that, in her role as a trusted confidant to Glenn Greenwald, she is in a position to have people banned who do not meet her arbitrary and capricious standards. So either you post is the product of willful ignorance or the lack of due diligence. Yes, go tend your “French” garden where the “endless drama” of competing perspectives can be carefully manicured out of existence. True democracy is messy business.
best wishes to you.
Is it pathological with you? The lying, I mean?
As I have repeatedly said, Glenn Greenewald, and he alone, determines what is a delete-able or ban-worthy offense here. He also decides who.
That said, there are numerous long-time participants in his comment space who discuss a variety of issues with Glenn, including the comment section. We know what ,Glenn’s standards are, because we have discussed them with him, and/or we have read his public warnings to those who he considered banning or who he ultimately did ban; it was virtually always about volume.
And as Pedinska dropped in to vouch for, those standards have also applied to
Glenn’s supporters — even when they are held in esteem by other supporters. If they crapflood in Glenn’s view, they go.
“Mona claims that, in her role as a trusted confidant to Glenn Greenwald, she is in a position to have people banned who do not meet her arbitrary and capricious standards.” – Wilhemena
“Is it pathological with you? The lying, I mean. As I have repeatedly said, Glenn Greenewald, and he alone, determines what is a delete-able or ban-worthy offense here. He also decides who.” – Mona
Let’s let the readers, once again, decide who the liar is:
Mona-
30 Mar 2014 at 11:46 pm
Whether this person(s) will be deleted or banned is ultimately up to Glenn Greenwald. But it would be fair to say that the individuals who have objected to this misuses of the comments section are trusted by Glenn, and their opinions carry some weight with him.
Typical Mona, using inference so, that if challenged, she can hide in a shadow of doubt!
You are the liar: I’ve repeatedly noted that Glenn *alone sets moderation standards — and does so in ways that on at least three occasions have been displeasing to some of his supporters.
So yes, you lied when you wrote: “she is in a position to have people banned who do not meet her arbitrary and capricious standards.”
1. The standards are not mine; they are Glenn Greenwald’s, and
2. He takes onions from a number of us as to who and what needs moderating –or not — but his authority is sole and final.
He hasn’t always agreed with us, including me.
Lol!!! ROFL!!!!! Clearly you are not content with letting your own words speak for themselves. Or, with the notion of readers deciding for themselves who the liar is.
Retroactive qualifications only serve to invalidate your claim that it was me that was lying. ROFL!!!!!!!
So the whole comment section is an Onion Production©?
That does explain some things…
If you had actually taken the time to read the numerous exchanges between Glenn’s self appointed representative (Mona) and myself, then you would have a better understanding of that which you have chosen to blindly address.
I did read them. I wasn’t blindly addressing anything, but your assumption is noted. Part of having conversations without ad homs etc is not making assumptions about things you cannot know. If you were really interested in such conversations then you wouldn’t jump to conclusions which, however spurious, support the argument you wish to propagate.
I was addressing something which, IMHO, might have left the wrong impression, whether intended or not. That’s all. And I have just as much right to do so here as you have to jump to any and all conclusions you have already predetermined.
Not sure why my “replies” are ending up at top like new comments, but that’s ok. I’m going back to my “Ohio” garden where I can tend something that matters more than endless discussions about non-democratic issues – and it is non-democratic since it is, by definition, Glenn’s space.
There is sunshine in Ohio and spring has sprung. Wishing everyone – and I DO mean everyone – same.
I vacillate between respect and admiration, and cynical confoundedness, for your (Glenn’s) dedication to the belief that the behavior you are describing is anything short of core aspects of human nature. In short, you are apparently still not completely jaded, and I am simultaneously confounded by and somewhat envious of that. Of course, there is also the quite plausible possibility that you are simply playing the role of the “not-quite-completely-jaded-yet” which in this context would seem entirely justifiable, but I digress.
Assuming the former, that “it is as it appears” in your case, you still almost seem surprised that most people care about nothing other than advancing their own careers. Politics (for all but the most microscopic minority) is just (read: simply, not “justified”) lying. Government is just (ibid) force. To advance their political careers, politicians and their hangers-on must lie regularly, and must use force against others to get what they want. Hypocrisy is just an inevitable byproduct. This is the essential definition of their profession, and they should therefore be held in appropriate contempt.
This is what they do. All a population can ever hope to do is create a framework that cuffs their hands behind their backs as a consequence of their being granted power. That’s it. They’ll slip out of the cuffs, and they will wreak havoc regardless, but if we assume the necessity of the beast in any form, the most limited, restricted and subservient manifestation must forever be the goal. Perhaps we could codify such restrictions in a document. Perhaps we could even lay out a set of granted powers and assume no other “implicit” powers. Perhaps that might work.
The human heart is a dark, dark forest. Man is full of faults. WOmen might be better, but we haven’t had much of chance to find out.
It should be no surprise that Hilary Clinton considers people like Mubarak a friend. In December of 2010 she was guest speaker at the Manama Dialogue, a prominent security summit. She was asked about the Wikileaks cables that Manning provided.
The “all of us” that she is addressing not only includes representatives of allied despotic regimes, but “enemies” such as China, and Iran too. She’s quite clear about what she considers to be the real danger; “public release” of information.
I hadn’t heard of that quote by HC … it’s telling. She’s in bed with the rest of the good-ole-boys … has been for years. She’s cut her teeth on foreign policy and I fear the next election will put her in lockstep with the last two administrations. My dream ticket is Sanders/Warren … but only time will tell.
I pray that GG/TI finally gets some well fertilized compost on HC to head her off at the pass and shut her down once and for all. Seeing her in an orange jumpsuit would be the cherry on top. Please God and Amen.
This is a marriage of convinience other wise they have nothing in common. Saudis are becoming a terror state and supporting terror like terror regime in Egypt.
The US-Saudi love feast is a marriage made in heaven. Mutual love and admiration for recruiting and sponsoring brutal terrorists in Syria.
Arnold Lockshin, political exile forced out of the US
What is “crapflooding”? When two individuals lengthily accuse each other of it, does that qualify as crapflooding? For what it’s worth, I have just stopped reading this comments section because of it. If the bickering is intended to put people off reading this site, you’ve succeeded with me.
@Mona –
I don’t recall ever making the statement, or even the suggestion, that “the ridicule of crapflooders bothers me at all.
My point has been a simple one: which is that it is not OK to mock, chide, deride or ridicule others in order to keep their thoughts off of this comment section. Other criteria, yes. That. No.
To my knowledge, no one on the Intercept staff, its pseudo-staff, or the posters themselves has ever publicly and courteously asked any of the more voluminous posters to reign in their word-count; nor has anyone made that effort with those who post more post than most.
Had these things happened in the beginning on what we all recognize to be a bold, yet fledgling effort, and one coming none too soon despite many obstacles and glitches to be ironed out, the tone and tenor would have been different, and for a much desired reason – empathy.
In other words, the Intercept is a place that I wanted to be – due more or less in equal measure to the subject matter at hand, and because of the honest, adversarial reporters that I knew I would find here. What I did not like was the ethos of the comments section – which rather than being refreshingly adversarial, was, to be honest, degrading quickly into the juvenile.
I’ve followed many other journalists throughout the years: Moyers, Cronkite, Rather, Donahue, Adler, Wallace, and others when there were only a very few news channels at all – and more recently due to the internet, I have enjoyed much of the staff and output from the Guardian, DerSpeigel, Aljazeera, the BBC, Democracy NOW!, NPR, and many, many others.
I’ve also followed many of the writers on here for years – Glenn Greenwald, Marcy, et al., and I look forward, once again, to the reporting of Matt Taibbi, whom I have followed on Rolling Stone and elsewhere.
This is all because of the brutally honest and multifaceted take these people provide us of our world, our politics, and of those that are affected by the machinations of the few and the powerful, at the expense of the many and the less so.
This is all with the hope that such dialog as they bring, even though it must be repeated all too often, will at some point tip the balance of scales more towards the middle, where most of us have to live.
With First Look Media and the Intercept, what I found was a site and a news source that I felt was doing the news and had the information, the resources, and the culture needed to affect much needed change; change that will literally reach across our entire planet – and in the end was disappointed, to put it mildly, that many of the commenter’s and some of the pseudo-moderators arguments were not of the same caliber as their hosts.
Initially what I wanted, and what I will still continue strive for, is an adversarial, yet more mature online community to share the news that affects us all.
That I have no problem standing up for myself and my viewpoint is apparent – and that I want a more mature environment to do it in is the goal. I still think that The Intercept site is improving and moving in that direction, and if it takes shaming others on here when rational arguments won’t suffice in order to rid the place of the idea that it is OK to mock and deride others in order to silence them, then so be it.
So to those ends I’ll travel – and like Greenwald and Taibbi, I’ll be as uncompromisingly persistent in ensuring that what I consider are thoughtful and insightful voices do have their say on here.
If that gets me booted from here, then so be it.
I’ll not bow down and be censured by anyone that doesn’t have the aptitude, the common courtesy, and the simple human dignity to allow others to say their piece on here; nor will I stand around with my hands in my pockets while others face banishment or are simply willed by group-think to “go away” for fear of retribution, fear of reprisal, or due the mockery or contempt of others.
The one thing most people on here do realize is that the shit is hitting the fan, and that without the adversarial journalism and the accurate information that we need to make informed decisions, we are all going to be even more screwed than we are right now.
So bring an argument and bring a rebuttal – not a rebuke for speaking – and for goodness sake, be civilized. Because if we all can’t bring it together, right here and right now, that will be our next task – rebuilding what’s left after the chips have fallen where they may.
Best regards,
Sillyputty
> “If that gets me booted from here, then so be it.”
If the persistent failure of any and all of ‘L7”s political and current events commentary to pass through onto the page–completely sans links–is any indication over the last two days, that may be happening more than you think at this leftist site.
Yes. At the end of the day, this:
The guy in that first pic is dead. He died last year. I know the Saudis have money, but…
Marcolf/Wilhelmena
You must be insensate. For I can make it no plainer than I have many times in this thread that I do not consider you to be a crapflooder, and have no intention of trying to get you banned as one. There are, however, two other individuals whom many — well before I came along — identified as disruptive due to the first guy’s frequent and lengthy, inappropriate posts. (Number 2 was the sidekick who writes extensive kudos to number 2 for each of these rambling pieces of shite.)
Whether this person(s) will be deleted or banned is ultimately up to Glenn Greenwald. But it would be fair to say that the individuals who have objected to this misuses of the comments section are trusted by Glenn, and their opinions carry some weight with him.
You aren’t at CiF any longer, Marcolf. Glenn’s rules and standards obtain here. I expect that this is going to deeply frustrate you and make you quite unhappy. But there you have it.
“Whether this person(s) will be deleted or banned is ultimately up to Glenn Greenwald. But it would be fair to say that the individuals who have objected to this misuses of the comments section are trusted by Glenn, and their opinions carry some weight with him.”
Spare me your veiled threats that are so prettily wrapped in the false pretension of “fairness” Your actions on every thread betray any claim that you abide by any standard of decency.
If Glenn cannot tolerate having his views and actions openly challenged in this forum, then, please, by all means, ban me. Because, in the doing, you will eliminate all doubt that I harbor concerning the nature of his work.
“You aren’t at CiF any longer, Marcolf. Glenn’s rules and standards obtain here. I expect that this is going to deeply frustrate you and make you quite unhappy. But there you have it.”
You truly are full of yourself. You and your heartless drones couldn’t frustrate me in a month of Sundays.
Here is something Glenn Greenwald can contemplate when he struggles with the temptation to take your advice and preemptively silence his (your) critics with specious, self-serving claims of CrapFlooding:
“A good leader can engage in a debate frankly and thoroughly, knowing that at the end he and the other side must be closer, and thus emerge stronger. You don’t have that idea when you are arrogant, superficial, and uninformed.” – Nelson Mandela
For the 4th or 5th time now: No one, including me, is suggesting — in a veiled manner or otherwise — that you should be or will be banned.
Glenn moderates seldom, but when he does, it is for crapfloodish-type behavior. Moreover, at least three such individuals so moderated were supporters of his who simply could not stop voluminous posting that Glenn deemed unhealthy for the comments section. (Not all of Glenn’s supporters agreed with all three of these bannings.)
Manifestly, we can and have.
You are free to continue your bizarre campaign attacking Glenn Greenwald for all manner of his sins. You may also continue in your obsessive research project on members of “the evil hive” members.
But you will be disappointed if you expect to be able to report me for “abuse” and “bullying,” as you did at CiF, and see any results. (As one of Glenn’s regulars, I had access to a human being in the New York office about moderation of my comments, and she told me you had repeatedly reporting me for bullying you; you won’t be able to run to mommy like that here.) As I said earlier, we wear Big Boy pants here, and don’t care for Mommy Moderation, and neither, fortunately, does Glenn.
So, get used to it. Glenn doesn’t tend to attract supporters who think well of “report” buttons” and “abuse” complaints. You really are likely to be frustrated here.
“No one, including me, is suggesting — in a veiled manner or otherwise — that you should be or will be banned.”
Using a self-serving, ideologically-driven, arbitrary standard to single out those with whom you take personal exception is a threat to anyone who posts commentary. Today it is Mike – whose only sin is that he is attempting to make a connection with the fundamental aspects of his humanity. To this end, he sought out an online group of individuals in which he thought that he might find a sympathetic ear. The response to Mike’s “neediness” was akin to that of a Christian who, on his way to worship, impatiently shuns a starving man. The one person who stood up and challenged the brutal callousness that was heaped upon Mike’s head was SillyPutty. And in payment for remaining true to his own humanity, he, too, was viciously attacked by those who worship at the alter of He who has been crowned “the conscience of America.” The hypocrisy is staggering. Although I have not been explicitly threatened with banishment for my views, the will and formula are clearly in evidence. Is this really the type of community that Glenn Greenwald has been laboring to create? Is this the new-and-improved sensibility that we can look forward to if Glenn Greenwald is successful in his self-admitted advocacy? I am reminded of Madeline Albright who, when asked if the 500,000 deaths of Iraqi civilians were worth that which was accomplished by regime change, she unhesitantly responded in the affirmative. So, yes, I will continue my “bizarre campaign attacking Glenn Greenwald” and his merciless drones with the hope that they will realize that the first step to achieving a “greater good” for humanity requires a basic understanding of what it actually means to be human.
Why, of course you are, dear. Who among us — facing moderation policy we didn’t like — has not thought it a human rights atrocity on par with the half million Iraqi children the Unites States killed?
It is notions such as these, Marcolf, that make you so cute and worth having around.
Wow, you only objected to the last line. You do know how to give a gal hope!
From Me to @Wilma {aka: Blanca} on her two above replies:
@Wilma {aka: Blanca} to Mona:
“… neediness” was akin to that of a Christian who, on his way to worship, impatiently shuns a starving man.” & “… attempting to make a connection with the fundamental aspects of his humanity…” & “he might find a sympathetic ear … was viciously attacked” & “I will continue my “bizarre campaign attacking” & “…the first step to achieving a “greater good” for humanity requires a basic understanding of what it actually means to be human.” {I won’t bother to quote all the inhumane, unsympathetic, attacking, bizarre quotes attributed to you that could follow here … anyone who’s interested can let their fingers do the walking.}
@Wilma {aka Blanca} to Mona [on a previous reply on this page]: “You truly are full of yourself. You and your heartless drones [using my previous metaphor to her on a thread below]: couldn’t frustrate me in a month of Sundays. [Rand Paul much?]
@Wilma {aka Blanca} to Me[on a previous reply on this page]: “I am quite familiar with those who worship your two-faced god.”
@Blanca {aka Wilma} to the world: “I won’t ridicule anyone, at anytime, anywhere, just to try and shut them up.”
@Me to @Wilma {aka: Blanca} [in her own words]: {speaking of my God} “Your words and actions do him justice (oh the irony!).” “The hypocrisy is staggering.”
See Wilma/Blanca? Two can play at your game. Mona was right – you are a liar. And darling, that’s not golden nectar at the bottom of your honey pot – it’s the jaundiced remnants in a chamber pot courtesy of another pissing match you just lost – A – GHIN!
BTW — This thing that you’re doing here – between all your quotes? Talking about shunning the starving, humanity, & defending the “greater good” while claiming to only be protecting your “friends” (paraphrased). — You don’t get to use any God as a shield AND then turn Him into a weapon of your hate speech, words of “wisdom”, war cries, cries for justice, and mockery. You don’t get to play both sides of the fence against each other. That’s a little thing called blasphemy. That’s using God’s name in vain. That’s the unforgiveable sin. You, my dear, are headed down a dangerous path – if you believe, as you allude to. Just an FYI.
Now buzz off – and when you do, check yourself with a fine-toothed flea comb – before someone swats you – but good! And I ain’t talking about getting the boot from some fucking comment board. (Pardon my French – and no offence to GG/TI – this site is all good.)
@Wilhelmina… I fully admit that I started this exercise to satisfy my own snark (after you quoted Frederick Douglass about blasphemy then turned around and disrespected my God). There is a very specific reason why I am following the TI/GG/ES release of information and how they piece events together. As for how it relateds to you, please hear me out.
Based on this sites recorded timeline my conclusion is this: I know you felt vindicated by Sillyputty when he ran down my list of quotes (defending you). You then defended his critics. But then you probably felt a sting of betrayal when he addressed you directly re: inappropriate behavior. Cracks began to appear in your kinship with him. Words were exchanged between you and your arch-nemesis. Then I replied back to both Sillyputty and you about his “quote” post and you seethed a bitter, terse reply to me. In a matter of about 2 hours “Blanca” appeared for the first time and politely questioned me on an OT thread, about why I troll trolls, and I responded. Perhaps, based on what “she” perceived to be me tipping my hand (?) – this morning ”she” felt reenergized and posted a philosophical “who, what, where, when, why”. That’s when “Blanca’s” critics started question whether or not “she” was Sillyputty. Full attack mode by “Blanca” ensued towards several commenters, calling out people specifically … but –not- me (a glaring exception. When Sillyputty graciously welcomed “Blanca” he advised “her” to ignore “crap flooders and haters”. Then you replied to me about my “two-faced God”. Sillyputty extended a thoughtful reply to one of ”Blanca’s” critics (another perceived crumbling/betrayal) and more back-and-forth between “Blanca’s” critics continued. That’s when you tipped your hand as “Blanca” by referring to Marcy (who you’ve mentioned as Wilhelmina in previous posts). Then “she” began attacking her critics and arch-nemesis, again. That’s when you saw I “outed” You/ “Blanca” by posting as much to the very critics you kept attacking as ”Blanca”. Yet another visceral ”Blanca” attack (again referring to Marcy) towards “her” critics. It was right about this time you probably learned Sillyputty and I buried our hatchets with one another (another crack, another betrayal). Then you replied to one of these same critics referencing the “hive”. A few more friendly exchanges between me and Sillyputty (I know, cracks/betrayal) and then I addressed You/”Blanca” directly in my post about blasphemy. I know you must’ve been pissed off. Especially since just 2 days before you referred to it when quoting Frederick Douglass. Not long after you saw Sillyputty make statements about “Blanca is Wilma, and Wilma is Wilhelmina”.
In the interest of avoiding “crapflooding” and unnecessary drama I have not included the recorded timeline. So please think very carefully before responding to this message.
It wasn’t until I assembled the timeline chronologically that I realized what was really happening with you. This will be my last post or reply to you for the indefinite future. This isn’t because of our adversarial and tempestuous history. As I’ve told you before, I know my way around the DSM. I absolutely -do not think it’s ok- to taunt someone who is suffering and who is in undeniable and clinical pain. I am sorry that your history of torment causes you to act out this way. I will not attack you anymore – but neither can I defend you here. I will not step in again (unless you want me to post the timeline) – so I offer the following heartfelt advice.
I honestly feel you need to find a friend and a counselor who you can trust, who are wise and who can be sympathetic to where you find yourself at this moment. I feel strongly that this comment board is unhealthy for you and I urge you to find a place where you feel safe and free from attackers – because if you stay here – you will continue to attack and be attacked. I hope that when you are feeling more secure in yourself and with your emotions that you will return so we all can all debate with you in a healthy manner, with no hurt feelings, even if we are locking horns. I wish you no harm. I am not a bully. I am sorry for my part in teasing you. I know now that I caused you much pain. I apologize. I pray for nothing but happiness and blessings in your life.
p.s. I will also ask anyone who reads this to please cut Wilhelmina/Blanca a wide berth if she vents any anger. Thank you.
El B, Reread ALL of your comments above and ask yourself: “What would Jesus do?”
@Sillyputty: “What would Jesus do?”
I asked … the resulting previous statement from me were per his specific instructions. Honest to God.
@El B –
Hmmm…I asked too…that’s not the answer I got. Perhaps you should reread the status of “unforgivable sin.”
And to be frank, it’s generally accepted on the internet and in debates that using ones religion or lack thereof to base your argument or rebuttal upon is essentially arguing with oneself, that’s why it’s seen very rarely – in fact, yours is the first I’ve seen here. Not a condemnation, just an observation.
This is likely because religion is a personal experience and a personal belief system, and therefore cannot and should not be substituted for a reasoned argument.
In other words, once anyone takes their “god” out of their pocket and throws down, it doesn’t further discussion, it only ends the argument.
http://christianity.about.com/od/faqhelpdesk/i/blasphemyagains_2.htm
“Hmmm…I asked too…that’s not the answer I got.”
— doubtful, but ok – I’ll humor you.
“And to be frank, it’s generally accepted on the “internet and in debates” … is essentially arguing with oneself…”
— I’m not beholden to what the internet or debate rules when it comes to arguing – whether it’s with another human being OR myself. I rely on my understanding of the teachings of the bible and other ancient texts and spiritual teachings where a common thread speaks the same voice. The “bible” has been re-written and re-interpreted so many times it’s core teachings tend to be twisted to benefit whomever is “preaching” whatever version they choose to use as a personal litmus test. “Not a condemnation, just an observation.”
“This is likely because religion is a personal experience and a personal belief system, and therefore cannot and should not be substituted for a reasoned argument.”
— see above comment … I substitute nothing. I use reason and common sense and when my faith, heart and moral compass resonate I take that as confirmation I’m on the right track.
“In other words, once anyone takes their “god” out of their pocket and throws down, it doesn’t further discussion, it only ends the argument.”
— Tell that to your friend, who picks it up in defense and as a weapon.
“Perhaps you should reread the status of “unforgivable sin.”
— then why the hell did you paste a link for blasphemy?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_sin
“The Catholic Church, as well as the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox churches believe blasphemy against the Holy Spirit to be an unforgivable sin (i.e., eternal sin).”
“Thomas Aquinas lists, or has responded to six sins that supposedly go against the Holy Spirit:
* despair: which consists in thinking that one’s own malice is greater than Divine Goodness, as the Master of the Sentences teaches,
* presumption: if a man wants to obtain glory without merits[5] or pardon without repentance
* resistance to the known truth,
* envy of a brother’s spiritual good, i. e. of the increase of Divine grace in the world,
* impenitence, i.e., the specific purpose of not repenting a sin,
* obstinacy, whereby a man, clinging to his sin, becomes immune to the thought that the good searched in it is a very little one.
Thomas Aquinas explains that the unforgivability of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit means that it removes the entrance to these means of salvation—however, it cannot hinder God to take away this obstacle by way of a miracle.”
“Quit stirring the shit pot!” -El B
p.s. For the record … I believe in creationism and evolutionism. Science is a fact. I have studied and visited archeological sites all over the place. I also study (as a hobby) astronomy and have visited many observatories all over the place. Funny how archeological sites have precise reference points to astronomical points in the “heavens”.
I’m also an environmentalist – this is also the reason why I call out global warming deniers.
I rely on my understanding of the teachings of SCIENCE AND the bible and other ancient texts and spiritual teachings where a common thread speaks the same voice.
You have most definitely proven that.
As do you. In spades. More than a bit hypocritical.
You’re honestly not trying to silence anothers voice on here again, are you? What with the multiple STFU’s, etc…
More hypocrisy.
“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.
Matthew 7:1-5 ESV
Whatever dude.
The only thing I’ve only proven that I don’t take everything here – or in life -at face value. I look at all sides … and determine for myself what MY truth is. I own everything I say and do – until I decide otherwise.
“I’m not worried too much about that though, because … you have the stones to stand behind what you say and think, and the ability to acknowledge when you’ve learned something from someone else on here without resorting to the savagery and censorship…” (- Sillyputty)
— The only thing you’ve taught me today are that you have two faces. Thanks for that.
“Judge not, … the speck out of your brother’s eye. Matthew 7:1-5 ESV (- Sillyputty) & “… it’s generally accepted on the internet and in debates that using ones religion or lack thereof to base your argument or rebuttal upon is essentially arguing with oneself, …” (-Sillyputty)
— With your quote and your “non-condemnation/observation” these attributions from you are the height of hypocrisy … therefore, accusing me of hypocrisy is hypocritical … and attempting to argue with me about religion – all the while admitting you’re only doing so with yourself. Just own it. Unless you’re going to play lawyer for the defense and prosecution again. Good luck with that.
Everything else you said is just static.
from RT
Pralinée Poroshenko 29.03.2014 23:23
I don’t care anymore about the BIG EYES!?And i don’t trust any Governement in the West.?The anglosaxon Governements lost already all Credibility.??They also lost the HEARTS and Minds of the common People of the West.??With all their lies, als their crimes, They are hypocrites. ??WARSHIPERS OF THE MAMMON.??The y don’t care about human beiings.
on crapflooding–
perhaps it can be dealt with by only showing a portion of the long comments. if someone wishes to continue reading the long comments they could by requesting it. i have seen trolls ruin good blogs and disrupt thoughtful comments and responses.
thanks again, glenn, for reminding us of the blatant, vile hypocrites that our leaders have become.
Another thread destroyed. Teh system works!
Thanks Sibel, Chris, Mark, Arthur and Cass! And of course the maniacs. We must never forget the maniacs! Thanks maniacs!
This site must be bombarded with attacks, sabotage, orchestrated blog comments from “special interests.” Some computers churning out forever new URLs or whatever to despoil our freedom of association and speech.
Ahoy, Sillyputty and friends:
You should take good note when multiple other commenters object to lengthy, inane and/or mostly off-topic posts. Consider our ridicule and frustration to constitute the proverbial canary in the coal mine.
For while Glenn Greenwald — who controls deletions and bannings here — has never undertaken such measure based on viewpoint, he has, with some frequency, deleted and/or banned for the behavior you see some of us objecting to. And he has done so here at TI.
So, commenters who post multiple lengthy posts, or scads of shorter ones, which are overwhelming inane, distracting and/or or off-topic, are at significant risk of getting the boot here, if Glenn’s history is any indication.
He doesn’t tolerate crapflooding, and it his definition of that infraction which is the first and last appeal.
That is simple reality here. Those who cannot accept it, are not required to participate.
Hmmm, let me see if I understand Glenn Greenwald’s position as stated by you: Glenn will not tolerate “crapflooding”, but group bullying is allowed as long as it is directed at those who take exception to his positions. Got it!
Glenn Greenwald tweeted today: “I love when that incestuous DC political/media circle hugs in unity-they’re telling themselves: there’s strength in numbers!”
From which derives that “irony” you mentioned.
Yes indeed, this a brilliant time to remind me of the irony that I mentioned in a past post!
Frederick Douglas was a student of irony as well:
“What, then, remains to be argued? Is it that slavery is not divine; that God did not establish it; that our doctors of divinity are mistaken? There is blasphemy in the thought. That which is inhuman cannot be divine. Who can reason on such a proposition? They that can, may – I cannot. The time for such argument is past.
At a time like this, scorching irony, not convincing argument, is needed. Oh! had I the ability, and could I reach the nation’s ear, I would today pour out a fiery stream of biting ridicule, blasting reproach, withering sarcasm, and stern rebuke. For it is not light that is needed, but fire; it is not the gentle shower, but thunder. We need the storm, the whirlwind, and the earthquake. The feeling of the nation must be quickened; the conscience of the nation must be roused; the propriety of the nation must be startled; the hypocrisy of the nation must be exposed; and its crimes against God and man must be denounced.”
Modern History Sourcebook:
Frederick Douglass:
The Hypocrisy of American Slavery,
July 4, 1852
Conscience? Pfffft!!!! What a Neanderthal?
How delightful that you bring up Frederick Douglass (even if your doing so is a non sequitur).
For you see, he had been reproached for being too mean in his argumentation. To which he replied:
That temperament here is just fine, and not unlike Glenn’s own.
“How delightful that you bring up Frederick Douglass (even if your doing so is a non sequitur).”
Would you care to share with us that which you have identified in my comment as an “argument.” And, then please identify the disconnection between its premise and the conclusion.
Or otherwise directed. This has never been an “infraction” (either real or imagined) in Glenn Greenwald’s space.
It’s the crapflooding thing; volume that dilutes and distracts from discussion. No one cares — including Glenn as far as I can see — whether the flooding is undertaken wittingly or not. It isn’t tolerated.
But almost anything else is, in my experience of Glenn’s space.
So it’s very good if you have, indeed, “got it.”
Just so that I am absolutely certain of that which you are saying on Glenn Greenwald’s behalf…
“Group bullying is explicitly allowed on this (the Intercept) website.” Is this a correct summation? Yes or no?
I am saying nothing on Glenn Greenwald’s behalf. I am speaking to my own knowledge of his moderating standards, when I first observed him adopt some in 2006 and forward.
Glenn has not, in the years I have been participated in his commenting space (more or less continuously since 2005), recognized an infraction called “group bullying.” Take from that what you will.
“Glenn has not, in the years I have been participated in his commenting space (more or less continuously since 2005), recognized an infraction called “group bullying.” Take from that what you will.”
Oh, so your little speech on crapflooding was not explicitly authorized by Glenn Greenwald or the Intercept? And the fact that “group bullying” was not explicitly identified as an infraction in 2005 means that it is still OK today. Didn’t the Guardian website explicitly prohibit abusive behavior on Glenn Greenwald’s blog?? And didn’t Salon also have a Terms of Use clause that prohibited threatening and abusive behaviors as well? Yet, you argue that Glenn Greenwald has never recognized “group bullying” which is a readily identifiable subset of both “bullying” and “abusive behavior? Wow, this is truly enlightening.
So, you have taken it upon your self to arbitrarily define and identify specific examples of that which you believe to crapflooding? And, of the only two persons who you have chosen to publicly chastise for this egregious activity, one happens to be an individual who has taken noted exception of your own abusive behavior toward the second individual named? How convenient…
Oh, so your little speech on crapflooding was not explicitly authorized by Glenn Greenwald or the Intercept? And the fact that “group bullying” was not explicitly identified as an infraction in 2005 means that it is still OK today. Didn’t the Guardian website explicitly prohibit abusive behavior on Glenn Greenwald’s blog?? And didn’t Salon also have a terms of use clause that prohibited threatening and abusive behaviors as well? Yet, you argue that Glenn Greenwald has never recognized “group bullying” which is a readily identifiable subset of both “bullying” and “abusive behavior?
I an unable to take anything from your explanation the does not smell of equivocation and obfuscation.
I require no “authorization” to explain my up-close and personal experience of Glenn Greenwald’s moderating policies and history. While I do not remotely speak for him, you may assume that on multiple occasions, he and I have discussed moderation issues.
He has never moderated for reasons of “abuse” or “bullying,” and did not do so at Salon, where he controlled moderation of his commenting space.
So if ,say, I wanted to ask you here, several times, why you wish for Glenn Greenwald to publicly repent a brief career distributing gay porn, there is no one here to whom you can complain in order to silence me. You are without recourse in the face of my “bullying.”
Glenn has been called a bully on Twitter, repeatedly. He relishes that; thrives on it. What you are asking for is a prissy, pusillanimous standard under which Glenn would have to ban himself, LOL!
(Glenn was deleted once at the Guardian’s CiF by the moderators. Three things about that are true: 1. He didn’t quit, but 2. he didn’t alter his “abusive” commenting style, yet 3. mysteriously, he was never deleted there again. One assumes some words were had.)
So Wilhelmena, you simply are going to have to endure things here as they are, rather than as you might wish them to be.
“I require no “authorization” to explain my up-close and personal experience of Glenn Greenwald’s moderating policies and history. While I do not remotely speak for him, you may assume that on multiple occasions, he and I have discussed moderation issues.”
So, again, you have taken it upon your self to arbitrarily define and identify specific examples of that which you believe to be crapflooding? And, of the only two persons who you have chosen to publicly chastise for this egregious activity, one happens to be an individual who has taken noted exception of your own abusive behavior toward the second individual named? How convenient…
“So Wilhelmena, you simply are going to have to endure things here as they are, rather than as you might wish them to be.”
As are you. You can stop with the self-serving veiled threats of being banned for “crapflooding” against those who challenge the morally reprehensible behavior of you and your hive. Stop trying to create the illusion that you speak for anyone but yourself. Or, that you possess any semblance of authority.
“So if ,say, I wanted to ask you here, several times, why you wish for Glenn Greenwald to publicly repent a brief career distributing gay porn, there is no one here to whom you can complain in order to silence me. You are without recourse in the face of my “bullying.”
Be my guest. And I will respond with the reminder that, on that same thread, you argued on Assange’s behalf that It is ok for a man to initiate sex with a woman who is incapable of giving her consent – in effect approving of rape. If you would like me to once again provide a complete retrospective account of that exchange, I will be more than happy to comply.
It would have just been easier to ask me if I posted under the name of Marcolf on the guardian website, then to play these little games. I have no reason to hide that fact. Unlike you, I have never published a view that I did not own up to when challenged – as you did with your sickening views on non-consensual sex. If you would like me to re-post my commentary re: Glenn’s involvement with pornography, then I will. Along with the studies that were objected to by you, and censored by the guardian staff, that showed the correlation between pornography and violent sexual crime. I will also remind Glenn’s readers that it was Glenn who initially published the news of his involvement with pornography because he believed that it would be less “damaging” to his reputation if he provided the framework for the ensuing narrative. Thus, it was he that believed his involvement with pornography was morally “wrong” in context to existing social conventions. But lets take this up on a fresh thread so that everyone can reap the benefit of our exchange.
Now that the introductions are over, are you going to man-up and admit that bullying is unconscionable behavior? If not, are you going to answer my post wherein I cited a number of studies that reveal the real-life outcomes of bullying, (e.g. mass murder and suicide)? Or, are going to continue to hide as if you never saw it?
@ Wilhelmina
Although I would have preferred to post this reply at the end of your comment string, as has been noted, there is no “reply” button.
Thank you for making your argument so cogently and tenaciously.
I had high hopes for this site, and I am not easily discouraged, however it seems the old tribe is compelled to establish a pecking order. I have seen this behavior at many startup blogs. Intolerance that most of these folks would never exhibit in person, seems to have become a parlor game to alleviate boredom while waiting for the next article to emerge.
Though early on most seemed to be respectful and fairly tolerant of divergent points of view, I have noticed recently that each new commenter who dares voice an opinion varying even slightly from the group-think narrative is shouted down by Glenn’s well versed, adoring fans. Baptism by fire!
Perhaps Greenwald can have a successful blog without the participation of new readers.
@Rodney
Thank you for your kind response. Like you, I harbored “high hopes” for an online town forum where people could gather, respectfully exchange a wide range of opinion, and nurture an inclusive atmosphere. I couldn’t agree more with your observation that the “Intolerance that most of these folks would never exhibit in person, seems to have become a parlor game to alleviate boredom while waiting for the next article to emerge.” The capacity to remain virtually anonymous has opened up a Pandora’s box of behavior’s that, when given free reign and time, have devolved into a group ethos that has now become virulent. Although I am vehemently opposed to any type of censure, I simply do not understand why Glenn Greenwald would tolerate this type of behavior from those who have identified themselves a “monitors.” If outcomes are an indicator of intent, then it seems as if the unspoken goal is to create a cult wherein the laws of natural selection are used to single out those who will not submit and adopt the group ethos.
Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it. – Thomas Paine
@Mona –
<blockquote”“You should take good note when multiple other commenters object to lengthy, inane and/or mostly off-topic posts.
Why? Because you (and multiple others) who are not the moderators simply cannot tolerate anothers views?
This is not, and has never been about “lengthy” comments, aka “bandwidth-issues,” and it is not an “off-topic” comment issue.
It is an intolerance issue.
”Consider our ridicule and frustration to constitute the proverbial canary in the coal mine.
Your ridicule and frustration are symptoms of your intolerance and immaturity. You cannot tolerate posts that you disagree with for various reasons, and then become disappointed that not everyone agrees with the idea that it is not OK to mock, chide, deride or ridicule others in order to keep their thoughts off of this comment section.
Prove it.
That the Editor or his proxy has the ability and right to do as you suggest is true. Given that, my email address is known to them, so I’ll either get a shot across the bow or be walking the plank soon here if, indeed, what you say is factual.
If it is truly as you say, Mona, and not just another immature bullying tactic: that the Editor of the Intercept embraces a viewpoint that values bandwidth over brevity, and group-think over diversity – and also welcomes the idea that it’s OK to mock, chide, deride or ridicule others in order to keep their thoughts off of this comment section, then I’m completely fine with that.
Why am I so sanguine? Because I won’t accept or tolerate this type of intolerance.
”That is simple reality here. Those who cannot accept it, are not required to participate.
In addition to being intolerant, now you’re just speaking nonsense.
So, either the Editor here banishes me forever, your first premise; or because I cannot accept the reality you have outlined for the Editor here, I am, ipso-facto – “not required to participate?”
Oh, I see. Therefore, no matter what I do – your reality dictates that I cannot participate.
The other shoe has dropped. Again.
Oops…be right back, Mona.
Sorry Mona, gotta’ go. Reality Base Station is on the other line…(“….Lyra1…DO YOU COPY?…The GRRV is on its way!…over…hiss…fuzz”)
“ Tolerance implies no lack of commitment to one’s own beliefs. Rather it condemns the oppression or persecution of others.”
John F. Kennedy
Regards, Sillyputty
Oh my dear, no, you have much wrong in that gas cloud. I have outlined nothing for the Editor here; I have provided for all readers, yourself included, my experience of how Glenn Greenwald moderates his space. (As is often true of sites with communities, some of Mr. Greenwald’s long-time regulars are privy to private discussions with him about moderation, both in general, and in particular instances. He hates viewpoint banning; he is quite willing to crapflood ban.)
And unfortunately for you, the ridicule of crapflooders that so (purportedly) bothers you, has not concerned Mr. Greenwald in his entire history of online writing, which formally began in ’05.
Rather, he has deleted and banned the crapflooders, and has not deleted and banned those who ridicule them. We who ridicule and slam them will, as it pleases us, continue to do so.
If this reality is intolerable to you, this comment space may not be suitable for your sensibilities.
On Ample Annotations
“My friends, I had not intended to discuss this controversial subject at this particular time. However, I want you to know that I do not shun controversy. On the contrary, I will take a stand on any issue at any time, regardless of how fraught with controversy it might be. You have asked me how I feel about voluminous comments on this website. All right, here is how I feel about this:
If when you say voluminous comments you mean the devil’s tongue, the poisonous written scourge, the bloody monster that defies others ideas, dethrones reason, destroys the open discourse and attempts to censor the right to speak freely, creates misery and points undeserved jabs at others; if you mean the evil typing that topples the well articulated man and woman from the pinnacle of reasoning; that attempts to invalidate anothers argument not through reason or logic, but rather through petty insults and fear mongering, then certainly I am against it.
But, if when you say voluminous comments you mean the oil of conversation, the philosophic wine, the writing that is enthusiastic at being allowed a public forum, that puts a song in writers hearts and laughter on their lips; if you mean the stimulating discourse that puts the spring into the thoughts of those long without a voice; if you mean the method of dialog which enables all to participate in public speaking without fear of reprisal; if you mean that method of communicating, the exercise of which pours into our community ideas and views that offer novel and much needed solutions to our collective maladies; to build better and more transparent government, and regains our civil liberties, then certainly I am for it.
This is my stand. I will not retreat from it. I will not compromise.”
*Adapted from a 1952 speech given by Judge Noah S. Sweat, Jr. – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noah_S._Sweat
Best regards,
Sillyputty
Silluputty –
Glenn doesn’t care of you comment drunk. You could have left in the word “whiskey.”
comment. works? doesn’t?
comment. it works.
Snippets overheard whilst at the water cooler, on the way to the break room, when powdering one’s nose, etc…
– Comment to “Mona” from “El B” on the 29th of March, 2014.
Just a little bit later….
A litany of remarks from “El B, on March 30, 2014…:
”sometimes I troll trolls … I’m an imperfect human being. Sue me….”
”It’s not you doll, it’s just about almost everything you say. That’s all.”
”Can I help it if some of them just so happen to author non-sensical and sometimes highly offensive mumbo jumbo”
”just stick with the kittens and puppies and talk sweet to them. This is not my first time at the rodeo … I always get back on my horse … and I got the buckles to prove it!”
”That was an invitation as much as a warning.”
“”I presume to speak for NOBODY except myself. Go back and read over every damn thing you can find I’ve written anywhere on this entire site. You’ll find NOTHING to support that accusation. Step back – you’re outa line.”
“You get what you give…A little self-reflection in equanimity and patience departments might merit a better perspective of you – by yourself – and by everyone else subject to your word vomit.”
“Are you with the ACLU of fucking comment boards now? If you need a consensus to validate your every brain fart then this might not be the place to pin your hopes — unless that is — you start talking like a normal person and not a civil rights attorney serving papers on anyone to is violating your “freedom of anti-groupthink and anti-bullying” rights.”
”Call me crazy but it appeared (from where I was sitting) a hatched is buried between you and me … until I found you trying to plunge it in my back with this piece of utter horseshit manifesto.”
”Yes, I can tell YOU’RE SEETHING BREATHLESSLY! For the fucking record read my previous comment. I’ve never ever participated on a comment board before this one in my entire life!”
“If you think I’m mindfucking you trust me sister, I’m straight! And even if I wasn’t you sure as shit wouldn’t be my type. Stop with all the 3-letter “words” … I think you’ve confused acronyms with anachronistic rantings … you’re more paranoid than the NSA, FBI, CIA, etc. combined. And sweetheart – YOU sent me the snapshot of your neanderthal portrait … the evidence is saved for posterity in the thread below. Sorry you hate to look in the mirror – maybe you should work on your make-up a little more. Or at least wash your face and comb your hair.”
”if I EVER get a hard-on for you it’s only when you start ranting like a banchee on people who conveniently provide rationalization which you have verbal seizures over – it’s chronic with you. … Deal with it … or better yet – do us ALL a favor – and find another comment board better equipped to deal with your psychosis!”
“when ignorant back-biting feral pigs cross into my territory I will shoot that fucker – gut it – cut it up and share all the fucking ham, bacon, pork chops, ribs and everything else they offer at my fucking barbeque. Then I’ll fry their fucking skin and crunch on the Chicharrón with hot sauce! And FWIW – I also make bacon candy….I don’t know if you’re drinking, or bi-polar, or what … but I also know my way around the DSM and you’re profile is in there.”
”you’re nothing more that a creepy, freaky, disturbed, obsessive-compulsive (and perhaps alcoholic, meth addicted, manic depressive, socially anxious and/or paranoid schizophrenic) psycho stalker.””
”And jus-so-you-know – you can’t work me up in the least – or even {oooooooooh} skurr me. I have moves you’ve never even seen dollface. Sucks for you… Now why don’t you go and take your meds or drugs or whatever salve or ointment you need to go to sleep or roll out of bed in the morning.”
“You don’t have enough brain cells, bullshit or restraining orders to rattle my cage. My nerves are made of titanium and diamonds. And any attempt at reverse psychology on your part is as hilarious as it is pathetic. ROFLMFAO!!!! Unless – that is – you actually enjoy making an ass out of yourself in front of this entire forum to only have it saved in perpetuity for all to mock and laugh at through eternity. That’s the genius of your anonymous virtual reality … and the internet. But really, it’s just a waste of your time, as well as everyone else’s here.”
”Whether you try to “mindfuck” me or we play nice is entirely up to you. I don’t even need condoms to protect me from you … you on the other hand are merely a festering STD burning up these airwaves. Do what you like…. but if I don’t respond it’s out of mercy – I don’t want to trigger an aneurysm – or a cyst – or another hemorrhoid – or a psychotic fugue.”
”OMG! I’m already bored of you… {Yawn/Stretch}. I’m sure you’ll be thinking all night long, on your fluffy pillow, of all the things you’re planning on telling me the next time we cross paths here. I can just see you – lurking every comment board known to man just to copy/paste one-liners and rimshots you think will “hurt my feelings”.”
And finally, the pièce de résistance:
From Wilhelmina, in response to El B, on March 30, 2014:
”The only thing more gratifying than the sight of morally bankrupt individual[s] attempting to make appeals to standards of behavior that they themselves hold in utter contempt is the temper tantrum that they throw when they fail.”
”The unexamined life is not worth living.”
~ Plato
http://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/2005/may/12/features11.g24
Stalking behavior exhibited, and duly noted, very helpful. Gee, thanks. Do you have your own blog somewhere that we can read more of this brilliant stuff? Or just do you just parasitically encourage the drama here?
@John Kelly –
You’re welcome.
No.
No. It existed before I entered the room, and will most likely continue once I leave.
Just as I wouldn’t mock, chide, deride or ridicule anyone when I am speaking to them face to face in a meeting or in my home,for the express purpose of getting them to not speak, nor will I do it in a virtual place that too many here use as a shield for their duplicitous dialog, in a veiled attempt to get someone to discontinue speaking altogether.
With that said, I do (although much less eloquently than Wilhelmina has) point out hypocritical and immature behavior when I see it – and I encourage others to do the same, particularly if what I post falls into this category.
The most disturbing things, actually, are that more people here:
A) Will not call out others when they try to stifle speech that, although long-winded or off topic, is harming no one by intent, but
B) Will instead, paradoxically, hassle others for pointing out socially unacceptable behavior, in order to keep them from speaking about it.
Regards, Sillyputty
I have read some fairly reasonable, if completely misguided : ) writing from you, but this is just plain drama that’s taking up space. If that makes you feel better, keep going. I would never suggest that you shouldn’t speak. You have something to offer, but this seems beneath you.
Yes, as if this has really has been the actual problem all along.
Thank you, John Kelly, but I did not ask for, nor do I seek your permission to speak.
Thank you, but somehow I have the feeling the other shoe is about to drop…
And there you have it – the unrelenting hypocrisy on here by some who, on the one hand, affirm that they “would never suggest that you shouldn’t speak,” while on the other hand childishly deriding your speech.
“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
? George Orwell
Regards, Sillyputty
And with this, I stop reading you entirely.
@Bill Owen –
You exemplify these points very well, in that you will not censure those that do mock, chide, deride or ridicule others in order to keep thoughts off of this comment sections – and yet you hop right onto the band-wagon of derision in an attempt to ride herd on the thoughts of those you do not want to hear.
Regards, Sillyputty
For someone seems fairly abrasive in his debate style, you have a very thin skin.
someone [who].. sorry
Actually, I treat what I say here in the same way as if I were speaking face to face with someone.
In other words, I do not mock, chide, deride or ridicule others in order to keep their thoughts off of this comment section, nor would I, or have I done this in a business meeting, family gathering, PTO meeting, well…you get the drift.
Actually, no. I don’t have any particular skin conditions; unless, of course, what you are actually doing is referring to my unapologetically and consistently objecting to others who mock, chide, deride or ridicule others in order to keep their thoughts off of this comment section.
“We get on the bandwagon in all sorts of ways – you know minor ways and major ways – like what you’ve just encountered which isn’t censorship exactly, it was something sort of uglier in a way.”
Kathy Acker
Regards, Sillyputty
Once again no reply button after a response to me… not sure why.
Craig, You say you do not have a skin condition (such as thin skinned syndrome mentioned by me earlier). Perhaps you have a touch of Tourettes though? This phrase keeps popping out of your mouth (keyboard) at weird intervals: “I do not mock, chide, deride or ridicule others” Is this part of a very long signature or do you think it is original each time you post it? A little mockery is actually a valuable tool. I have been the victim of some clever and harmless mockery when I screwed up something, and it can be helpful… unless you actually do have a thin skin.
@John Kelly –
”Once again no reply button after a response to me… not sure why.”
Talk to Mona, she’s the Moderator here. Me? I think she hides ‘em. She has a thing for pushing buttons, but in order to disallow such reciprocal behaviors, has apparently absconded with a few.
As to why you’re on Mona’s missing button list? Beats me – ask Lyra1, she keeps the lists.
They must be making fun of you for some reason. Don’t tolerate that kind of crap, slippery-slope and all that – just gets worse if you let it slide.
Wait, they may be trying to make a point – guess you’ll have to hang around to decipher their collective reasoning.
Really? Not only can you not read, you cannot remember who it is that you are accusing of having exfoliation issues…Can’t blame this on Mona or Lyra1, can you?…I don’t think so anyway…John Kelly, work on that. Someone’s gotta’ take the fall.
No. See above.
You forgot the salient part:“in order to keep their thoughts off of this comment section.”
Also, see comment above re: how to improve literacy; remembering who you are talking to; and how to find your lost button (or who to talk to when you lose it).
(Pssst…John Kelly…I think Mona’s turning on you. I mean, think about it: Your button is missing, the names of those you are addressing changes in your own posts without your knowledge or permission, and now you’re on the list. Things are looking kinda’ sketchy.)
I’d be worried…but hey, I’ve already been warned.
You don’t say?
Nope. Not me. You?
Hey, I actually still have all my buttons, too…(where the hell did yours go?!?…F%^&#ng Mona!!!…)
And I don’t even mind if they’re pushed.
So, go ahead, John Kelly, join Mona and the cadre to mock, chide, deride or ridicule other voices on here in order silence what you don’t want to hear (or that simply taxes your tired, aching, and sore mouse-wheel finger muscles to their limits) – but don’t expect to get away with it without some push back.
“I have led you down a road of deception just to correct you and make you look like an uneducated ass”
Ashley Newell
Regards, Sillyputty
In response to :
Sillyputty
30 Mar 2014 at 8:17 pm
And again, no reply button… could be a function of my browser or no-tracking measures I guess… Sillyputty, I apologize… got your name wrong, I was responding to another similar troll on another thread and got you mixed up… see how mockery (or perhaps ridicule) works now… you just used it on me, and yet I feel no pain.
Do you see the hypocrisy in your position yet? And again with the: (snip) “cadre to mock, chide, deride or ridicule” from you. How many times have you posted that so far?
@John Kelly
Seriously, did you talk to Mona? Well, maybe not a good idea…that has been known to backfire…”Your mileage may vary,” and all that…
Well, I haven’t seen Lyra1, and since she keeps the lists…well, it looks like you listless, for now. I do know how hard it can be to get around on this site without a button to push…the horror…
OK, that’s just wrong. Not the apology – few and far between in these parts, and much appreciated, like a breath of fresh air…
Wait a !@&*^ minute! That is messed up! Here I am, the second greatest, second most destructive, second rated crap-slinging troll on the Interwebs, skulking openly right in front of everyone…and you forget about me?!?
Sigh…What’s a troll to do.
I just used it on you? On purpose? So that’s how that works.
Or maybe you’re just a ‘maginary entity, just like “Sir Post A’lotta Words;” neither of you feels pain, or can care what the other, more powerful beings who inhabit this place think about you or even care what you say.
Geepers…didn’t you get the memo?! People are getting’ banned!
Game over, man! GAME OVER!!!
I’m sorry, but Mona has somehow kicked themselves off Lyra1’s list and got me all worried, so I gotta’ be duckin’ n’ bobbin’ n’ weavin’ n’ shuckin’ n’ jivin’ so I can’t sit around here just worrying right now about how what I say or write on here might actually affect someone or what they want to share…Phffftt…What kinda’ example are trying to get me to set, anyways?
”And again with the: (snip) “cadre to mock, chide, deride or ridicule” from you. How many times have you posted that so far?”
I don’t know, Lyra1’s keepin’ tabs on that…seems an awful lot like what the reporters on here have been doin’ though, I tell ya’ – write somethin’ about the big-banks screwing us all, and then “lather, rinse, repeat” and still the dumb fuckers get away with it – ‘bout the same with these posts – nobody gets it that it’s not OK to make fun of anyone just cus yer’ mouse-wheel finger is about to fall off – whatdya’ do??
Just like ol’ Taibbi, I guess – “lather, rinse, repeat” as needed.
I tell ya’ all I got now to keep me sane is Monty Pythons, “The Argument Clinic:”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDjCqjzbvJY
Watch, and hopefully enjoy, John Kelly. I did.
Regards,
Sillyputty
Well.. Sillyputty, As long as you are entertained by the incoherent babble you just spouted to my response… (the one where I pointed out your hypocrisy), then just carry on… but anybody reading this can see that you were mocking me, something that you decry in others. Fucking hilarious. I deserved to be mocked for getting your name wrong, but it sure was amusing seeing how you responded : ) If I had known it was that easy to reveal your bullshit, I would have done it sooner. Thanks so much.
Yes. Go on…
You assessment John Kelly, as was very clearly pointed out earlier, is once again both inaccurate and incomplete, in that I have repeatedly stated that what I object to is not mockery per se, but mockery that is used ”for the express purpose of getting [someone] to not speak, or to get someone to discontinue speaking altogether.”
Please reread the posts that we have already shared, as well as the other posts regarding this subject.
I really can’t break it down much more simply than that for you, John Kelly.
But please, if you need additional clarification on what I mean, in these or any future comments, please let me know.
Best regards,
Sillyputty
Perhaps if you keep repeating yourself you will convince somebody of something. You are not a blathering idiot, but you sure do go on like one. Why use a sentence when you can write a short book displaying your mantra over and over? It seems like such a great way to communicate. You are either very good at cut and paste, or at typing, or both. Perhaps you have a special key on your keyboard that uses your favorite phrase? Anyway, have fun, but if you expect people to read everything you write and understand what you are getting at, you might do a lot better to hire an editor to help you be just a little bit more concise. All the best, John
@John Kelly –
My point has always been a simple one. From another of my posts:
“It is not OK to mock, chide, deride or ridicule others in order to keep their thoughts off of this comment section. Other criteria, yes. That. No.”
Ask yourself this question, John – and if the question is too long or you don’t understand what I’m trying to say, or I haven’t made myself clear, please let me know:
If you were a comment section moderator dealing with civil liberty issues, privacy issues, and the over-arching goal of believing that “the prime value of journalism is its power to impose transparency, and thus accountability,”* would you also think that to chide, deride or ridicule others in order to keep their thoughts off of this comment section was in accord with your over-arching goals as well?
*From the Intercept Mission Statement
At some point one has to say either that:
•“It is NOT OK to chide, deride or ridicule others in order to keep their thoughts off of this comment section. Other criteria, yes. That. No.”
•“It is OK to chide, deride or ridicule others in order to keep their thoughts off of this comment section. No other criteria needed.”
25 words, more or less. Which words do you choose John? Honestly? And why?
Regards,
Sillyputty
“mock, chide, deride or ridicule” I’m afraid the phrase has lost all meaning after you posted it… what is it several dozen times, a dozen times?
Would the following be considered ridicule by Sillyputty?
Snip: “Also, see comment above re: how to improve literacy; remembering who you are talking to; and how to find your lost button (or who to talk to when you lose it).”
It seems like it to me. Or is it mockery? Amusing at the very least. You are a funny guy. I like that part.
In any case, hypocrisy revealed. As I mentioned before, no problem with some mockery etc, but obviously you are concerned about the rules and making sure that everyone but you follow them. Duly noted.
If you have any substantive tips on improving my literacy, I would be glad to hear them…. I mean other than the suggestion that I read the same thing over and over again.
@John Kelly –
I’m not counting. Remember, Lyra1 has the lists. Anyway, some thoughts:
“You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink” or “Wax on-Wax off” or “Lather, rinse, repeat” – take your pick. Or, better yet, make up your own.
Yes, but never done to keep your thoughts off of this comment section. Other reasons, yes. That. No.
Yes. And me too.
@John Kelly –
I’m not counting. Remember, Lyra1 has the lists. Anyway, some thoughts:
“You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink” or “Wax on-Wax off” or “Lather, rinse, repeat” – take your pick. Or, better yet, make up your own.
Yes, but never done to keep your thoughts off of this comment section. Other reasons, yes. That. No.
Yes. And me too.
Nope. Please “lather, rinse, and repeat” as needed. Or, “wax-on, wax-off” if it’s sunny outside. Your horse seems thirsty, by the way.
Certainly. First, the ability to read does not, ipso facto, lead to understanding. Nor does mere repetition. Read as many different and contrary things as you can, and then ask yourself what you have learned. I know, it sounds like busy work…But it’s all I got.
Oh wait – there’s more: When reading anothers comments, or before responding to same, read what they’ve said several times before you reply – and then read your reply several times before you respond.
Crap, there’s even more: Go back and read what you wrote earlier today, or last week or last year, or in 1984. See how it comports with your thinking today.
“To lead people, walk beside them… As for the best leaders, the people do not notice their existence. The next best, the people honor and praise. The next, the people fear; and the next, the people hate… When the best leader’s work is done the people say, ‘We did it ourselves!’”
Lao Tzu
Regards, Sillyputty
All SillyPutty did was reproduce that which was said by various members of the hive on this thread. Yet, you choose to fault him as if he was the original source. Might I ask to what standard of decency and fair play do you subscribe? I am nor attempting to be either smug or snarky – I am just having trouble understanding how someone as bright as yourself can embrace and defend such behavior.
Oh Wilhelmena, form fuck’s sake. Only yesterday you posted to me:
Did you see me or Titonwan pitch hissy fits, and clutch our pearls over bullying and the sheer horror of it all?
We don’t care about playing it rhetorically tough, and those of you who can’t get used to it — even as you do so yourself — had best be gone. We go about our commenting as we like here.
@Mona –
The issue isn’t about being “rhetorically tough,” which by that I mean the ability to express yourself forcefully and yet respectfully when addressing another’s view on here.
The issue is the ongoing inability for some on here to self-censure to the extent that an effective and meaningful dialog can even take place. To wit:
And how is this hypocrisy made manifest?
So, in the end it’s all just a matter of “We” can do it, while all you “other” commenter’s…Well…you can’t.
“Sometimes a people lose their right to remain silent when pressured to remain silent.”
– Criss Jami
Regards, Sillyputty
“Did you see me or Titonwan pitch hissy fits, and clutch our pearls over bullying and the sheer horror of it all?”
No, the both of you are too enamored with such behaviors to be concerned with their ethical and/or moral implications. When you add in the obvious fact that bullying can have far-reaching and unforeseen consequences:
Gay Bullying Statistics
http://www.bullyingstatistics.org/content/gay-bullying-statistics.html
Rejection, isolation, and bullying have all been cited as contributory factors in school shootings by adolescents. Professor Johnathan Fast conducted a study of 13 incidents of school shootings wherein bullying was cited as a universal factor. A study conducted by the US Secret Service found that, of 41 attackers involved in 37 school shootings, the majority had been subject to bullying. And a 2001 study (Meloy, Hempel, Mohandie, Shiva, and Gray) found that, of 34 adolescents who committed 27 mass murders, fifty per cent were the victims of bullying. (A Comparative Analysis of North American Adolescent and Adult Mass Murderers).
So, Mona, continue to indulge you infinite capacity for self-delusion at the expense of your hive’s victims. Ignore the fact that you have no way of knowing the psychological disposition of those to whom you and yours take liberties for the sake of sport (play). What’s the harm huh?
“members of the hive” Would that be considered ridicule, or derision? Careful now, Sillyputty may object to this kind of language and we will have to scroll through another few pages of repetitive cut and paste brilliance (insert: mockery, but not intended to make anyone go away emoticon).
“members of the hive” Would that be considered ridicule, or derision
Only if it were not true.
Now that’s just brilliant!
See, John, I knew you could figure out what I was saying all along.
Was it Blanca’s math tutoring that finally did it? No, wait, That can’t be it, ‘cus Blanca is Wilma, and Wilma is Wilhelmina, and Wilhelmina is Gandolf (or something like that), and Sillyputty is Blanca, too…Geez. Now we just need a paranoid/delusional emoticon, a sarcasm font, etc…
“Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O! Wretched mortals, open your eyes!”
Leonardo da Vinci
I’m so sorry that I did not understand the crux of your narrowly focused obsession a little sooner… it was the [in order to make people go away] part… awesome sauce! You are so right! How could I be so thick as to not recognize that which is so important to you.
Here I thought your parrot was using voice recognition software to type that phrase over and over (so I mocked it), and all the time it was a real human with Repetitive Diarrhea of the Upper Sphincter Syndrome. Pray continue… get it all out.
That, indeed, is the question you have yet to answer.
Your absolutely brilliant “mockery, but not intended to make anyone go away” emoticon comment actually nailed it.
That it seems too nuanced a concept leaves no other option but to lather, rinse, and repeat.
Regarding your request for any substantive tips to improve literacy, I forgot to include watching real humans debate, face-to-face. There are many good examples online – Hitchens/DiSouza; Bill Nye/Ken Hamm; Dawkins/McGrath, just to name a few.
Or, if you live near a college, go see one there.
One thing you’ll note when watching these face-to-face debates is that they tend, almost always, to respect and address each others differences in a much different way than many do in “debates” such as occur on this site and elsewhere.
Anyway, lots of learning to do. Please, do let me know what you read about and/or the debates you do watch – I’m sure it will make for an interesting discussion.
Regards, Sillyputty
I have watched plenty of debates and been in a few as well, but thanks for your attempt to help.
It’s not really a debate if your parrot is simply saying the same thing over and over is it? You should keep that thing away from the keyboard when it has been imbibing.
I’m trying to figure out which of the two phrases that you (or your parrot) have endlessly repeated means anything in the context that you have used them.
“Lather, Rinse Repeat” meant something when Matt Taibbi said it, you… not so much.
The other… well that poor horse is near death from being thrashed around so much, but I’m sure you will resurrect it to trot out in place of meaningful dialog very soon.
”I have watched plenty of debates and been in a few as well, but thanks for your attempt to help.
So you don’t dispute that people are better behaved in person than they are on here.
It’s not really a debate…saying the same thing over and over is it?
Correct. What makes it “a debate” is when you provide a credible rebuttal to my initial claim.
My claim is that it is NOT OK to chide, deride or ridicule others in order to keep their thoughts off of this comment section. Other criteria, yes. That. No.
Agree? If so, why? Disagree? If not, why not? Specifically, please.
Stop beating around the bush and answer specifically. Otherwise it isn’t a debate, because you cannot have one without a premise, and that is mine.
So, I ask you again, what do you think:
THE DEBATE TOPIC IS:
“Is it OK to chide, deride or ridicule others in order to keep their thoughts off of this comment section?”
Regards,
Sillyputty
Now you are telling me what the debate is? Are you doing this to intimidate me or to try to make me leave… because there is a somewhat paranoid regurgitation droid with a drunken and abusive parrot side kick posting here who may jump all over you for that.
You are obsessed. I have wasted plenty of time trying to jolt you out of your petty little obsession, but that will not be happening… obviously.
I’m sorry, but you are not qualified to frame the discussion here or lecture others on what constitutes legitimate debate.
Nor are you able to force others to answer your off-topic questions by asking them over and over. Your attempts to derail the discussion are clear. Endless repetition of your personal verbal ticks does not equal debate. Even fascist tools like Dershowitz and DeSouza know that much.
On another post/thread? you mentioned Hitchens… he was a brilliant man and I’m sorry he is gone, but he had an ugly side that he displayed when dressing down audience members who could not respond to his brutal take-downs following legitimate questions.
He was also a chicken-hawk who supported the war criminals in the Bush administration… to my great surprise. Funny that you would hold him up as a debater to be admired when you seem so concerned about tone.
Neither. I posited a specific premise that you have yet to refute or accept.
Regarding any of those in the debates mentioned, it was for demonstration purposes only, not for advocacy purposes. As far as Hitchen’s, to my knowledge, he never asked that others voices be silenced, or suggest that others do not have a voice, if he did he was wrong to do so.
In contrast, some on here have.
Back to the point at hand:
“Is it OK to chide, deride or ridicule others in order to keep their thoughts off of this comment section?”
Your view?
If you choose not to have one, just say so. Otherwise, provide one.
Regards,
Sillyputty
HTML previewer
http://www.draac.com/javatester.html
Since your banter is moronic and contributes nothing to the substance of the article, those of you involved in ego projections are definite TROLLS and should be banned for wasting our time.
Wow! Taking my comments and reposting them entirely out of context loses all the beauty and magic of their precise meaning. Let’s say we just let the comprehensions of intelligence and reading by the viewing public decide for themselves, shall we? (Especially since I was conversing directly with Wilma herself – and not to you.) I can take the heat – but quit trying to protect her. She can handle herself just fine. And you needn’t have started a new thread:
1. https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/03/28/us-takes-break-condemning-tyranny-celebrate-obamas-visit-saudi-arabia/#comment-17685
2. https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/03/28/us-takes-break-condemning-tyranny-celebrate-obamas-visit-saudi-arabia/#comment-17878
To my best recollection I’ve never responded to one of Silly’s previous comments (If I’m wrong look out for <>). But I have enjoyed his many Sillystring theories, replies, and his sputtering fails. So what? Did you & Wilma have a groupthink con-call/bully strat-sesh? Are you butthurt I didn’t respond to you in #2 above? Either way – look who’s decided to come out from under whose skirt? To what? Put me in my place? {see links above} Whatevs….
In future may I suggest you contact the NSA and request my dossier. Hell – I’ll even sign off on the FOIA for ya. It’ll save you time and your pedicures with all the scroll/copy/paste necessary to accomplish such a failed feat at superiority or mockery. It’ll also save you both your antiquated and collective legwork on your whiney quests to lift my skirt – as Wilma loves to envision – complete with soft-core lit. Jus-so-you-know I have a policy to pull my own pants down first – before I do it to others – makes for a clean & fair fight. Emperor/Empress my ass! You two have got nothing impressive under your old clothes. But you both exhibit the wonderlust fairly regularly – complete with quotes by commenters and others you esteem as some form of rim shot. (Rand Paul much?) Pffft!
Now Wilma – she just loves her bees – so do I. So think again Silly – you are just Sillyputty in her hands … and a lonely, lowly drone. Sadly, she’ll never a queen (except in the drama category) and not even a killer. You see, she’s a little worker bee with no barbs in her tail – try as she might she’ll only pollinate (and make precious little honey) until she dies of unfulfillment and frustration. And you’ll be ejected. That must sting … Poor bees:
http://www.orkin.com/stinging-pests/bees/honeybee-colony/
You already know by now I’ve admitted to lacking a college degree. I never needed one – but it never stopped me from studying the shit out of any- and everything that struck my fancy or challenged my intellect. I got my PHD in life by feeding my curiosities on my down time – reading, studying, listening, learning, and traveling. In almost every case I did this for free or at a discount – or on my boss’s dime during a business trip or paid training gigs. (Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled. -The Prophet Mohammed):
http://www.quotesabouttravel.com/
Now – I will thank you, and the other commenters on this -specific- thread for padding my education yesterday. I took the opportunity to self-reflect by perusing all my old comments, replies, requests for comments, and lack thereof on this entire site. I did the same for every commenter I hold in the highest regard. Self-realization is genius – many cues and clues were gleaned. You’ve shown me a better way to conduct myself in my first foray into the comment board world. I may be a newbie – but I’m a quick study. Thanks for the lessons you’ve taught me. (But I might just stumble here and there – sea legs, you know?)
Now Silly & Wilma – look at my Gravatar… see those two fingers I have pointing up. Those are for my God and heaven above. I live for that dude and everyone up there. The fingers pointing down are for earth and all living creatures down here – I live for them too – yes, even you two. But today I dedicate my index and pinky in your honor. Just so you each have something to suck on before you post your next one-up and last words you “need” to seek gratification or vengeance. Cuz you’re so good at sucking. Have fun in your gilded hive. I’ll end this little convo by pointing out to you two that the mirror has two faces:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissociative_disorder
p.s. … Dear Glenn: Sorry for all this. If you decide to ban me for “crapflooding” I’ll take it as a learning lesson and not complain. This board is supposed to be about: “US Takes a Break From Condemning Tyranny to Celebrate Obama’s Visit to Saudi Arabia“. TI is another graduate school for me. You and your team are my professors. I’ve learned a lot here by reading and commenting here. I hope you’ll continue to allow me to do so. Thank you for listening (?) and for all that you do. Peace out.
Damn! What’s with all the re-posts. Sorry all … there’s gunna be some redunancy below. I wasn’t trying to crapflood – I swear!
“See those two fingers I have pointing up. Those are for my God and heaven above.”
No need to state the obvious… I am quite familiar with those who worship your two-faced god. Your words and actions do him justice (oh the irony!).
Wow! Taking my comments and reposting them entirely out of context loses all the beauty and magic of their precise meaning. Let’s say we just let the comprehensions of intelligence and reading by the viewing public decide for themselves, shall we? (Especially since I was conversing directly with Wilma herself – and not to you.) I can take the heat – but quit trying to protect her. She can handle herself just fine. And you needn’t have started a new thread:
1. https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/03/28/us-takes-break-condemning-tyranny-celebrate-obamas-visit-saudi-arabia/#comment-17685
2. https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/03/28/us-takes-break-condemning-tyranny-celebrate-obamas-visit-saudi-arabia/#comment-17878
To my best recollection I’ve never responded to one of Silly’s previous comments (If I’m wrong look out for <>). But I have enjoyed his many Sillystring theories, replies, and his sputtering fails. So what? Did you & Wilma have a groupthink con-call/bully strat-sesh? Are you butthurt I didn’t respond to you in #2 above? Either way – look who’s decided to come out from under whose skirt? To what? Put me in my place? {see links above} Whatevs….
In future may I suggest you contact the NSA and request my dossier. Hell – I’ll even sign off on the FOIA for ya. It’ll save you time and your pedicures with all the scroll/copy/paste necessary to accomplish such a failed feat at superiority or mockery. It’ll also save you both your antiquated and collective legwork on your whiney quests to lift my skirt – as Wilma loves to envision – complete with soft-core lit. Jus-so-you-know I have a policy to pull my own pants down first – before I do it to others – makes for a clean & fair fight. Emperor/Empress my ass! You two have got nothing impressive under your old clothes. But you both exhibit the wonderlust fairly regularly – complete with quotes by commenters and others you esteem as some form of rim shot. (Rand Paul much?) Pffft!
Now Wilma – she just loves her bees – so do I. So think again Silly – you are just Sillyputty in her hands … and a lonely, lowly drone. Sadly, she’ll never a queen (except in the drama category) and not even a killer. You see, she’s a little worker bee with no barbs in her tail – try as she might she’ll only pollinate (and make precious little honey) until she dies of unfulfillment and frustration. And you’ll be ejected. That must sting … Poor bees:
http://www.orkin.com/stinging-pests/bees/honeybee-colony/
You already know by now I’ve admitted to lacking a college degree. I never needed one – but it never stopped me from studying the shit out of any- and everything that struck my fancy or challenged my intellect. I got my PHD in life by feeding my curiosities on my down time – reading, studying, listening, learning, and traveling. In almost every case I did this for free or at a discount – or on my boss’s dime during a business trip or paid training gigs. (Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled. -The Prophet Mohammed):
http://www.quotesabouttravel.com/
Now – I will thank you, and the other commenters on this -specific- thread for padding my education yesterday. I took the opportunity to self-reflect by perusing all my old comments, replies, requests for comments, and lack thereof on this entire site. I did the same for every commenter I hold in the highest regard. Self-realization is genius – many cues and clues were gleaned. You’ve shown me a better way to conduct myself in my first foray into the comment board world. I may be a newbie – but I’m a quick study. Thanks for the lessons you’ve taught me. (But I might just stumble here and there – sea legs, you know?)
Now Silly & Wilma – look at my Gravatar… see those two fingers I have pointing up. Those are for my God and heaven above. I live for that dude and everyone up there. The fingers pointing down are for earth and all living creatures down here – I live for them too – yes, even you two. But today I dedicate my index and pinky in your honor. Just so you each have something to suck on before you post your next one-up, last words and/or statistics you “need” to seek gratification or vengeance. Cuz you’re so good at sucking. Have fun in your gilded hive. I’ll end this little convo by pointing out to you two that the mirror has two faces:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissociative_disorder
p.s. … Dear Glenn: Sorry for all this. If you decide to ban me for “crapflooding” I’ll take it as a learning lesson and not complain. This board is supposed to be about: “US Takes a Break From Condemning Tyranny to Celebrate Obama’s Visit to Saudi Arabia“. TI is another graduate school for me. You and your team are my professors. I’ve learned a lot here by reading and commenting here. I hope you’ll continue to allow me to do so. Thank you for listening (?) and for all that you do. Peace out.
wierd… 2nd time I’ve had to repost something – then both posts immediately show up at once. Not sure what that’s all about {maybe why so many folks are complaining about} so FYI – just ignore the vv post below vv …
[Second try…. I think the links were the prob … so I removed them and replace with address w/o link]
Wow! Taking my comments and reposting them entirely out of context loses all the beauty and magic of their precise meaning. Let’s say we just let the comprehensions of intelligence and reading by the viewing public decide for themselves, shall we? (Especially since I was conversing directly with Wilma herself – and not to you.) I can take the heat – but quit trying to protect her. She can handle herself just fine. And you needn’t have started a new thread:
1. [look at below comment#17685/Titonwan 29 Mar 2014 at 9:01 am]
2. [look at below comment#17878/yra1 29 Mar 2014 at 2:44 pm]
To my best recollection I’ve never responded to one of Silly’s previous comments (If I’m wrong look out for <>). But I have enjoyed his many Sillystring theories, replies, and his sputtering fails. So what? Did you & Wilma have a groupthink con-call/bully strat-sesh? Are you butthurt I didn’t respond to you {#2 above}? Either way – look who’s decided to come out from under whose skirt? To what? Put me in my place? {#1 above} Whatevs….
In future may I suggest you contact the NSA and request my dossier. Hell – I’ll even sign off on the FOIA for ya. It’ll save you time and your pedicures with all the scroll/copy/paste necessary to accomplish such a failed feat at superiority or mockery. It’ll also save you both your antiquated and collective legwork on your whiney quests to lift my skirt – as Wilma loves to envision – complete with soft-core lit. Jus-so-you-know I have a policy to pull my own pants down first – before I do it to others – makes for a clean & fair fight. Emperor/Empress my ass! You two have got nothing impressive under your old clothes. But you both exhibit the wonderlust fairly regularly – complete with quotes by commenters and others you esteem as some form of rim shot. (Rand Paul much?) Pffft!
Now Wilma – she just loves her bees – so do I. So think again Silly – you are just Sillyputty in her hands … and a lonely, lowly drone. Sadly, she’ll never a queen (except in the drama category) and not even a killer. You see, she’s a little worker bee with no barbs in her tail – try as she might she’ll only pollinate (and make precious little honey) until she dies of unfulfillment and frustration. And you’ll be ejected. That must sting … Poor bees:
[go to: http://www.orkin.com/stinging-pests/bees/honeybee-colony
You already know by now I’ve admitted to lacking a college degree. I never needed one – but it never stopped me from studying the shit out of any- and everything that struck my fancy or challenged my intellect. I got my PHD in life by feeding my curiosities on my down time – reading, studying, listening, learning, and traveling. In almost every case I did this for free or at a discount – or on my boss’s dime during a business trip or paid training gigs. (Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled. -The Prophet Mohammed):
[go to: http://www.quotesabouttravel.com
Now – I will thank you, and the other commenters on this -specific- thread for padding my education yesterday. I took the opportunity to self-reflect by perusing all my old comments, replies, requests for comments, and lack thereof on this entire site. I did the same for every commenter I hold in the highest regard. Self-realization is genius – many cues and clues were gleaned – lesson learned! You’ve shown me a better way to conduct myself in my first foray into the comment board world. I may be a newbie – but I’m a quick study. Thanks for the lessons you’ve taught me. (But I might just stumble here and there – sea legs, you know?)
Now Silly & Wilma – look at my Gravatar… see those two fingers I have pointing up. Those are for my God and heaven above. I live for that dude and everyone up there. The fingers pointing down are for earth and all living creatures down here – I live for them too – yes, even you two. But today I dedicate my index and pinky in your honor. Just so you each have something to suck on before you post your next one-up, last words and/or statistics you “need” to seek gratification or vengeance. Cuz you’re so good at sucking. Have fun in your gilded hive. I’ll end this little convo by pointing out to you two that the mirror has two faces:
[go to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissociative_disorder
p.s. … Dear Glenn: Sorry for all this. If you decide to ban me for “crapflooding” I’ll take it as a learning lesson and not complain. This board is supposed to be about: “US Takes a Break From Condemning Tyranny to Celebrate Obama’s Visit to Saudi Arabia“. TI is another graduate school for me. You and your team are my professors. I’ve learned a lot here by reading and commenting here. I hope you’ll continue to allow me to do so. Thank you for listening (?) and for all that you do. Peace out.
W.T.F.??? 3 times???? FML… SMDH…. *facepalm*
Important as sites like Intercept are, they are mainly raid by political nerds and the like. Sadly, most of the population – whether it be in the US or UK – get a heavily edited/partly falsified version of “the news” from the mainstream media, and “foreign affairs” are always viewed through a narrow and often militaristic prism.As a result, comparatively few ordinary people have little idea how much of the world recognises the blatant hypocrisy of the West. The polity is owned by the corporates and the establishment, and so is its loyal handmaiden, the mainstream media, so it is sometimes hard to perceive a road to honest political discourse.
Lying is legal in the “news” here in the U.S. – thanks to Rupert Murdoch: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Akre
Never researched if the laws in the U.K. are equally bastardized … If you happen to know I’d be interested. Thx.
Adventures of The Most Pathetic Person on Twitter
Glenn Greenwald: This never ceases to be such an inspiring story – and underscores that *actual radicalism is about actions & risks http://t.co/DAMOiytK6V
The Rancid Honeytrap: oh god shut up. or get some new fucking new material you tiresome dullard.
The Rancid Honeytrap: by your account, someone who shoots up an abortion clinic is radical instead of a reactionary.
The Rancid Honeytrap: do you ever stop rationalizing your highly profitable, self-serving, establishment-appeasing incrementalism?
The Rancid Honeytrap: can’t you just for 1 day, shut up and count the money, instead of punching to your left at people with 0 influence, petty man?
(The flagrant logical error in the second reply is what occurs when a fine intellect is overwhelmed by seething jealousy.)
Stay tuned for Further Adventures of The Most Pathetic Person on Twitter.
It took at least 12 hours for the above comment to be posted.
It took at least 12 hours for the above comment to be posted.
Lol. Get in line… I have seen comments (and parts thereof) appear, and then disappear, and then re-appear in a different location. But, rest assured that this is not being consciously controlled by the powers that “bee.”
“Waiter, what is this bug doing in my soup.”
“That’s no bug, it is merely a glitch in the matrix. If you are willing until the soup cools, it will disappear on its own”
“In that case, I’ll have a bowl of your gazpacho.”
“No problem, but gazpacho is not scheduled to be served for another twelve hours.”
My record between comment submittal and actual post is currently over 24 hours. Which reminds me, Wilhelmina, speaking of messes, there is another El B clean-up on isle three…mop bucket’s in the usual location….Oh, and most likley, John Kelly has word-vomited again somewhere. He can’t match the shear volume of El B’s output, so a dustpan should suffice.
Wow @Silly! Those that stir the shit pot should have to lick the spoon. I may not pay attention to timestamps all the time – but trust – I do manage to put shit in order. I have a little killer app for that.
Two-faced much? I might remind you that the mirror has two faces – and yours just so happens to be the one Miss Mary Ann held in Romper Room.
https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissociative_identity_disorder
Now quit tossing the damn hat around and grow the fuck up!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpman_drama_triangle
Dustpan? … you only eat my dust!
… waiting for my previous post, complete with links, to post – hopefully this will push it out like Imodium – or serve as a colon cleanse.
@Silly: still waiting for my reply… no worries – I know you’ll be clicking refresh every 5 seconds just to see what your enema results are.
Yeah … so um – based on what I assumed was evidence to the contrary – and this little gem of a post:
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/03/31/nsa-worlds-blows-top-secret-program/#comment-19754
— STFU … and get lost. Oh, and grow the fuck up already!
“In the calculus of western interests there is no suffering, whatever its scale, which cannot be justified.”
Tariq Ali, “How Putin became evil.”
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/28/why-putin-crimea-strategy-west-villain
Hey Glenn! Who has more billions? Omidyar or King Abdullah? Who is personally responsible for more children starving?
Sorry,the Zionists are,as their economic model leads to the death of the poor Appolonians,while the Mercurians rule,Sheesh,the arrogance,and greed of their lack of civilization,and I include the Poison Ivy League of American destruction.Corruption writ large.
Did you know that the Arabs in Palestine, living divided into three sections : First: the population of the 48 who are living with Alhoahalasraúalah did not emigrate time Nakba They are also divided into Muslims, Christians, Bedouins and other minorities – are living as citizens of degree 3 and there are still Israeli attempts to create conflict between them where spread , including unemployment, poverty and Jerimathania : residents of East Jerusalem and who carry the identities of blue are not Israeli citizens, they are also isolated from the population of the rest of the territories occupied by Israel in 1967 and Israel is seeking to displace them from Jerusalem and the confiscation of their lands and the destruction of homes and cancellation of their residency in Jerusalem and taxed unfairly and large – – Thirdly – carried the identities of the Palestinian Authority who are living in the territories occupied by Israel in 1967, with the exception of Jerusalem undergoing in their lives at the instructions the Israeli Civil Administration , consisting of officers of the Israeli army and the Palestinian government to matters administrative service of the citizens do not have the right to cancel or modify the decisions of the Israeli Civil Administration . Where is the confiscation of land and building settlements for the Jewish citizens of Israel . — Palestinians in the diaspora who are Palestinian refugees who were expelled from their land in 1948 to the Arab states and their children and grandchildren as well as Nazhieddin who were outside of Palestine at the 1967 occupation , as well as their children and grandchildren as well as the Palestinians who get out of the occupied territories because of Israeli repression , whether due to economic factors , social or freedoms , confiscate lands prevention of movement and freedom of movement to prevent the siege of cities harassed soldiers and settlers
I believe Obama and a overwhelming number of US politicians spanning both sides of the aisle consider meeting with Saudi Royalty to be addressing a constituency in the same way meeting with leaders of the banking, pharmaceutical or insurance industry is .
This meeting in particular seems geared to preserving the flow of “black gold” from the Middle East. Although oil may have been discussed the black gold I’m speaking of is untraceable dark money injected from abroad into our political system for the purpose of influence buying.
This is virtually inevitable due to recent changes in campaign finance law (Citizens United) that have transformed our elections from a sovereign referendum on leadership to an international auction of influence.
Smedley, your famous for saying Al Capone only operated in 3 districts of Chicago, but the US military operates on 3 continents. That was in the 1930’s. What are your thoughts on the state of US militarism and globalization almost 100 years later?
Dear Gleenwald, let me start by saying that I appreciate EVERY single character you write.
As a Saudi (I hate this term because it’s the family name of my oppressor, the so-called royal family), I’m no stranger to seeing the US/Western powers’ double standard policies. My oppressor is celebrated and cheered for as a “KEY” ally of the “FREE” world, yet similar dictators are campaigned against, called evils, and ought to be removed from power. I’m no fool and I understand that the “FREE” world has a policy when it comes to dealing with those dictators; it is interest-based policy, not a value-based one. Politicians in the “FREE” world domestically brag about their “VALUES” and use them internationally to justify wars. However, they throw those “VALUES” out the window when a dictatorship-based system (like this of Saudi Arabia) better serves their interests even if the alternative is a system that believes in those same “VALUES”. Also, they might fool their people but not those who are oppressed and watch, in agony, “FREE” world leaders shake hands with their oppressor. Their actions speak louder than their words. Their speeches are like comedy shows to me. Stupidity and immorality seem to be prevalent among the “FREE” world leaders and politicians.
Thanks for voicing this point-of-view. I have heard as much said by a family like yours – but during a much longer conversation – and after much back-and-forth from everyone at the table while breaking bread. Thanks for reminding me of such a wonderful evening. And you are spot on!
If the House of Saud really respected Obama they would have put on a beheading for him. Seems he has not yet made the grade.
And who told you they didn’t. Videos from Syria carnage Is on the house of Saud. May god split the earth under them.
As abhorrent as the staging of a beheading for a foreign dignitary may be, I find the gift wrapping following the ceremony to be the most disturbing aspect of the practice.
But if Obama is successful is getting Saudi’s to lower oil bellow the benchmark price, for example to $90 a barrel, Venezuela and Russia get close collapsing. In turn, Obama will string out Iran opening, initiate Syria economic blockade, increase arms to Saudis who in turn support rebels in Iraq and do on…
And the much vaunted recovery in places like North Dakota grind to a halt……
C’mon Bile,you know they are building LNG tankers as we write,to ship US and Canadian fracked gas to Europe,and we can buy figi water at a grand an ounce.
“So all in all, it sounds like it was a very harmonious and constructive meeting between these two close, long-time allies and partners”. You forgot to add, “in crime. “…partners in crime”.
Thanks Glenn for continued insightful and fearless reporting. It is very much appreciated.
Craig Summers recites a faerie tale:
Jewish terrorists were “responding” to the British and UN who were not allowing the Zionists to steal and oppress the Palestinian Muslims as much as they felt necessary.
So, Yitzhak Shamir innovated the letter bomb and other lovely devices to employ on both British and Arab people, as well as UN officials. Indeed, Shamir thought terror was the only way to get what every good Zionist should want, and had no use for the faint-hearted who might demure:
For you see, Shamir and his Zionist comrades totally embraced terror. Read this carefully (I wanted to highlight so much of it almost all of would have been):
Jewish terrorists killed Arab civilians, as well as British officials and UN representatives, as well as “uncooperative” Jews. The British got so sick of Zionists letter bombs and other sorts of bombs that they, and the UN, gave Zionist terrorists the political result their terror was designed to achieve.
My quotes are from the article, International Terrorism: Image and Reality, here: http://www.chomsky.info/articles/199112–02.htm
Mona – No one appears to be disputing that Irgun and other Zionist Jews practiced terrorism. I would note, however, that Craig is correct about the Irgun’s origins. Its establishment was inspired by Arab massacres of Jews in 1929.
Zionist colonization was a terrorism from the beginning – because it was colonization of others’ land. A great Zionist hero Jabotinski was, at least, open about it (in his “Iron wall”) and argued that colonized people are usually resist colonization ( and he wrote it BEFORE 1929)
For some that will seem like an extreme statement. But in 1956, Moshe Dayan gave this astonishingly candid, short eulogy for a young kibbutznik named Ro’i Rotenberg, who was killed by Gazan Arabs who had crossed over the border into Israel.
Israel was born in colonist-settler violence and land-theft, and as Dayan foresaw, this generated a rational Arab hatred that was going to “require” endless war.
Mona- “Israel was born in colonist-settler violence and land-theft.”
Well, so was our own country, yet most people seem to regard the good ol’ USA as a legitimate enterprise.
It’s only been in the last 50-75 years that colonialism and cleansing the land of the indigenous has been rejected by the Western world.
We aren’t still doing it. And have paid compensation with things via the Indian Claims Commission, established just after WWII (however insufficient many find it).
Israel still is stealing land and won’t recognize that it owes any Palestinians anything. No legitimacy in that.
In the past five thousand years, Jerusalem/Israel has been fought over sixteen times, has been destroyed twice, has been besieged twenty-three times, has been attacked fifty-two times, has been captured and recaptured forty-four times each –toalling eighty-eight events so your talk of colonializtion comes from ALL BUT the jews! Global population has nearly one out of every four persons muslim.
Hi Gator.
That’s not my understanding, but since it’s you I’d consider it if you have a link?
What I’ve read is that the primary object of Irgun ire was the British. Arabs did slaughter Zionist civilians, it’s true, and so did Zionists slaughter Arab civilians. But, as I understand it, Irgun was a Jabotinsky-ite organization that didn’t think the Zionist leadership was “harsh” enough with the British, whose laws the Irgun rejected.
Mona – your characterization of the Irgun, which had a complex and somewhat mysterious history, is probably correct. They definitely hated the British with passion. I’m just recalling what originally inspired the group’s creation, based on my past readings. I don’t do links, though — have no idea how, and probably wouldn’t if I could. I just make assertions, which others are free to accept, reject, ignore, disprove, laugh at, whatever.
Gator90 “your own country” just was more successful in genocide of natives than Zionists. But both Rhodesia and SA were not so, and now they are not settler colonies anymore. Zionist colony is the next in this case.
And, by the way, it is YOUR word about “most people seem to regard the good ol’ USA as a legitimate enterprise.” Seem to you, yes. But there was also time when most people seemed (!) to regard slavery as a legitimate enterprise.
@Gator90
“I’m just recalling what originally inspired the group’s creation, based on my past readings. I don’t do links, though — have no idea how, and probably wouldn’t if I could. I just make assertions, which others are free to accept, reject, ignore, disprove, laugh at, whatever.”
WOW! That explains everything. Thanks for clearing up our previous understanding. You may not “do” links, but perhaps – if I can get my follow-up to post to our previous debate (tried 2x) I provided some to links to merely follow. Hope you know how to click. Lemme know if you need a powerpoint or somethin’.
Thankfully it appears that the Zionists has since become something of the new (old?) Illuminati in most people’s eyes. What’s the use of bombing when you are already said to own every politician of any real power in the US (And probably at least influence the ones in the UK)?
It should be noted that the UK Foreign Secretary William Hague has far greater powers of self-delusion than the Prime Minister. He visited Bahrain on the 10th of February 2011. One of the issues he had to address was that of Jaffar al-Hasabi, a British citizen who had been detained and tortured by the Bahraini authorities. On the 14th of February Bahraini protestors joined the Arab Spring; by the 17th there was a violent clamp down. Hague stood up in the House of Commons deflected criticism from the Bahraini regime and insinuated that Iran was behind the unrest.
INTERCEPT™ BREAKING NEWS: This is a partial transcript from the current, under development, as yet to be released ‘Low-Brow Productions™’ Sci-Fi Who-Done-It: “Lyra1’s World,” aka, “Reality Calling” :
Lyra1: (Urgently…gasp…puff…): “Needed a reply button for consolidation!!!”…(buzz…sputter…)
REALITY BASE STATION: “What seems to be the problem, Lyra1 – over?” … (hiss, static…)
Lyra1: … (Cautiously…gasp…gasp): “be advised!”… (drone…stammer…)
REALITY BASE STATION: “Lost you there…a bit garbled…please confirm, over…” (hiss, static…)
Lyra1: … (Warily…wheeze…pant): “Character and moral attacks continue, despite late hour…!”
REALITY BASE STATION: “Affirmative Lyra1…What is your situation now – over?…(hiss, static…)
Lyra1: … (Suspiciously…rasp…wheeze): “This is odd… a manifestation of a 3rd Character ?!…”
REALITY BASE STATION: “Affirmative Lyra1…Copy that – over. What are your unbiased observations, dammit!?!”…(hiss, static…)
Lyra1: … (Disbelievingly…scratch…breathes with difficulty): “This third entity exhibits a parallel reasoning pattern…!!!”
REALITY BASE STATION: “Copy Lyra1. Be careful…What else? – over”….(hiss, static…)
Lyra1: … (Astonishment… irk … fizzle): “Resorts to moral argument and condemnation…using the same moral arguments…?!?”
REALITY BASE STATION: “Sorry…lost you. Say again, Lyra1, over”….(hiss, static…)
Lyra1: … (Doubtfully… displeased … crackle): “Resorts to moral argument and condemnation…using the same moral arguments…These conversations are not limited to the example provided.”
REALITY BASE STATION: “Affirmative, over”….(hiss, static…)
Lyra1: … (Confidently… pleased … bubble): “Review of comments…will substantiate that…personal attacks on general character attributes and moral integrity…!”
REALITY BASE STATION: “Please hold Lyra1…night-side rotational blackout commencing. Back in 30 revs, over… (hiss, static…)
Lyra1: … (Uneasily … forlorn … simmer): ”…………fester……………“
REALITY BASE STATION: “We’re back, Lyra1, do you copy?… over… “
Lyra1: … (Awkwardly … desperate … seethe): ”……We’re all objecting to the usurpation of the comments section!!!!!!!”…(fume)… “with intent to disrupt!”…………“ (hiss, static…)
REALITY BASE STATION: “And what’s your final position, Lyra1?… over… “(hiss, static…)
Lyra1: … (Humiliation … wretched … frantically): ”……INTERCEPT™ BREAKING NEWS: This is a partial transcript from the current, under development, as yet to be released ‘Low-Brow Productions™’ Sci-Fi Who-Done-It: “Lyra1’s World,” aka, “Reality Calling” :
Lyra1: (Urgently…gasp…puff…): “Needed a reply button for consolidation!!!”…(buzz…sputter…)
REALITY BASE STATION: “What seems to be the problem, Lyra1 – over?” … (hiss, static…)
Lyra1: … (Cautiously…gasp…gasp): “be advised!”… (drone…stammer…)
REALITY BASE STATION: “Lost you there…a bit garbled…please confirm, over…” (hiss, static…)
Lyra1: … (Warily…wheeze…pant): “Character and moral attacks continue, despite late hour…!”
REALITY BASE STATION: “Affirmative Lyra1…What is your situation now – over?…(hiss, static…)
Lyra1: … (Suspiciously…rasp…wheeze): “This is odd… a manifestation of a 3rd Character ?!…”
REALITY BASE STATION: “Affirmative Lyra1…Copy that – over. What are your unbiased observations, dammit!?!”…(hiss, static…)
Lyra1: … (Disbelievingly…scratch…breathes with difficulty): “This third entity exhibits a parallel reasoning pattern…!!!”
REALITY BASE STATION: “Copy Lyra1. Be careful…What else? – over”….(hiss, static…)
Lyra1: … (Astonishment… irk … fizzle): “Resorts to moral argument and condemnation…using the same moral arguments…?!?”
REALITY BASE STATION: “Sorry…lost you. Say again, Lyra1, over”….(hiss, static…)
Lyra1: … (Doubtfully… displeased … crackle): “Resorts to moral argument and condemnation…using the same moral arguments…These conversations are not limited to the example provided.”
REALITY BASE STATION: “Affirmative, over”….(hiss, static…)
Lyra1: … (Confidently… pleased … bubble): “Review of comments…will substantiate that…personal attacks on general character attributes and moral integrity…!”
REALITY BASE STATION: “Please hold Lyra1…night-side rotational blackout commencing. Back in 30 revs, over… (hiss, static…)
Lyra1: … (Uneasily … forlorn … simmer): ”…………fester……………“
REALITY BASE STATION: “We’re back, Lyra1, do you copy?… over… “
Lyra1: … (Awkwardly … desperate … seethe): ”……We’re all objecting to the usurpation of the comments section!!!!!!!”…(fume)… “with intent to disrupt!”…………“ (hiss, static…)
REALITY BASE STATION: “And what’s your final position, Lyra1?… over… “(hiss, static…)
Lyra1: … (Humiliation … wretched … frantically): ”……“That these same arguments have been used in other articles against the same and numerous other individuals!!!!…For f*@K sake!!!…Don’t you f*%king understand!?!……
REALITY BASE STATION: “Roger that… Lyra1 – check you O2 levels, STAT… and be advised, the GRRV (Golden Rule Rescue Vehicle) is on its way…We repeat, Lyra1…The GRRV is on its way, over… “(No Static At All™)
*All Basic Human Rights Reserved© – Literally.
**This thread does not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of IBN or its local affiliates – WTF International & SMH.com.
***Sillyputty Productions (SPP), and The Consortium for Reality and Common Decency Productions, Inc., (TCR&CDP), on the other hand, are co-contributors and sole legal owners of this content – well, until Glenn Greenwald says otherwise…..
Thanks to your punk ass, eight new coal powered plants are going on line next week in China from your useless disregard of bandwith sharing. I hope yer satisfied.
@Sillyputty – First, thank you for posting that article from Salon. It is a worthwhile read, and I agree with the author’s general premise, although the situation of a cultural politics turned witch hunt shame blame game deserves far more analysis and articulation then can be given in one article. This is not the author’s fault, and I commend him for openly challenging the shallowness of today’s hipster rebels.
However, if your only goal is to drive people crazy with passive aggressive and nonsensical babble, that only serves to distract from the discussion, what is your contribution? To destabilize a message board? It seems obvious that either you just want attention, which you have received plenty of, or you have only come here to disrupt. If you have come here to disrupt my only question is, why? Would you rather confuse and inflame people than engage in a conversation?
Thanks
@amico humani generis:
Thank you, and you’re welcome. It was a very good read, and paralleled, I thought, much of what was going on in the comment section here.
My entire position from the beginning has been, and will continue to be, that more speech is better than less speech, particularly for the reasons noted before:
No one has the right to deride, ridicule, and childishly mock others based on nothing more than the fact that they posted something on here that they can’t be bothered with…to attempt to get someone to stop speaking, especially on an internet site where it takes, literally, only seconds to navigate past any post you don’t want to read is really childish and disrespectful…and lazy too.
“A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom. But the tumult soon subsides. Time makes more converts than reason.”
– Thomas Paine, Common Sense
Regards, Sillyputty
First, you can’t even answer one of my questions. I know.. I know.. I am coercing you, and mandating you… please excuse my authoritarian ‘nature’. Second, you speak of speech as if it is an object, or commodity. Given your own terminology, wouldn’t a small piece of gold speech be far more valuable than a large piece of bronze speech?
So, why is more speech better than less speech? Maybe best speech is less speech with more meaning. I am sure Thomas Jefferson would agree given that the Declaration of Independence is 1458 words. Ahhh… I think I understand – rhetorically you share more in common with Karl Marx who wrote three volumes of Capital. Ok, cool… welcome comrade!
amico humani generis – Please reread what I wrote. I answered all of your questions quite clearly.
Regards, Sillyputty
This is just too cleaver for the limited miniscule mind of Sillyputty. Must have gotten another, more intelligent operative to write it for you. You just proved my point.
SEE: https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/
Fact remains: The following listed people who also use the comment section on The Intercept do not appreciate the blatantly obvious PsyOp that you “Mike Wolf”, “Wilhelmina”, and possibly a few other individuals, are conducting on The Intercept publications comments section; and are publicly calling upon some intelligent member of the Intercept Staff to implement at least one of several alternatives to rectify the situation.
TallyHoGazehound
Mona
Kitt
Bill Owen
amico humani generis
Titonwan
El B
myself (Lyra1)
Possibly: presumptuousinsect
Can you count Sillyputty? That is 8 (possibly 9) commentators that have the same human rights to object as you claim “Mike Wolf”, you, and Wilhelmina (3) have to inflict your own bandwidth monopolization and self-serving moral values upon. As in any voting system, the majority generally wins.
Get it now?
“*Lyra1 – did you not even read the link you shared elsewhere on here?
“http://www.salon.com/2014/03/29/colbert_gate_and_our_failed_pseudo_democracy/”
That is not a link that I posted. It is a link that YOU Posted.
I have no desire to communicate with you in any form and I have told you so……repeatedly.
In fact, I have deliberately avoided communication with you and Mike Wolf at all costs.
Stay away from me Sillyputty.
“I have no desire to communicate with you in any form and I have told you so……repeatedly.”
You have a funny way of showing it. Not only are you addressing SillyPutty directly, but you have repeatedly attempted to publicly mock his contributions by name – which is an open invite to respond.
Unlike many of those to whom your antics were meant to impress (but failed), I actually appreciate the majority of your on topic commentary. So, I hope if you will afford me the future opportunity to respond to your contributions with complimentary replies when the occasion arises.
May I ask why you are responding to a comment that I directed to Sillyputty?
I’ll be staying far away from you as well.
May I ask why you are responding to a comment that I directed to Sillyputty?
Because your numerous postings that directly led to that exchange were meant to mock both SillyPutty and myself. Let me ask you a rhetorical question: What type of person refuses to accept a conciliatory handshake from the very person that they repeatedly attempted to offend with mocking commentary? You, my dear, are sorely lacking in Grace.
Well Lyra1, I can see that sillyputty’s brilliant parody has forced you to drop the lame facade of “objectively” chronicling events as they unfold. I noticed that you stood idly by while your list of bandwidth deprived victims attempted to mind fuck a self-admitted troubled individual. Instead of taking just a few moments to lend a sympathetic ear, you collectively chose to hypocritically heap burning coals upon Mike’s head from “on high” for the unforgivable sin of off-topic commentary. And you now have the unmitigated gall to accuse us of inflicting “self-serving moral values” upon your group of heartless drones? You truly are worthy of your place within the hive.
The blog comment section, to my knowledge, is not subject to “majority rules.”
Lyra1, it is you who does not “get it.”
As I’ve stated before: that Glenn or whoever take whatever measures they deem appropriate to moderate this comment section is given.
That you and others here still think that “bandwidth monopolization” trumps dialog on this site is a mistaken notion, in my opinion, one that the owners of the site could certainly disabuse me of, although I hope that this won’t be the case.
My entire position from the beginning has been, and will continue to be, that more speech is better than less speech, particularly for the reasons noted before:
No one has the right to deride, ridicule, and childishly mock others based on nothing more than the fact that they posted something on here that they can’t be bothered with…to attempt to get someone to stop speaking, especially on an internet site where it takes, literally, only seconds to navigate past any post you don’t want to read is really childish and disrespectful…and lazy too.
“A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom. But the tumult soon subsides. Time makes more converts than reason.”
? Thomas Paine, Common Sense
*Lyra1 – did you not even read the link you shared elsewhere on here?
http://www.salon.com/2014/03/29/colbert_gate_and_our_failed_pseudo_democracy/
*Apologies for the missing blockquote…
I repeat:
” Lyra1
29 Mar 2014 at 5:45 pm
“*Lyra1 – did you not even read the link you shared elsewhere on here?
“http://www.salon.com/2014/03/29/colbert_gate_and_our_failed_pseudo_democracy/”
That is not a link that I posted. It is a link that YOU Posted.
I have no desire to communicate with you in any form and I have told you so……repeatedly.
In fact, I have deliberately avoided communication with you and Mike Wolf at all costs.
Stay away from me Sillyputty.”
My apologies, Lyra1, you are correct – in that the link I posted referenced a post which you responded to from TallyHoGazehound on the 29th of March, 2014, where TallyHoGazehound mentioned that the article in question was:
The web link I provided is, however, from the same article that I mentioned, where you, Lyra1, stated in response to TallyHoGazehound that it was:
“Well worth the read.”
This means that you did read the article I referenced – which is why I reposted it. I agree – it is worth reading:
<a href="http://www.salon.com/2014/03/29/colbert_gate_and_our_failed_pseudo_democracy/” Twitter politics are all we have left. … Power lies elsewhere, and remains inaccessible.”
Regards, Sillyputty
*Hope the html tag works – if not, please reference the TallyHoGazehound post on the 29th of March, 2014 for confirmation.
… Um, this is awkward. I generally like to respond to individual comments rather than target a commenter as a whole. I actually responded favorably to one of @Mike Wolf’s comments earlier today. Though it may seem as though I’m singling out individuals I tend to try not to … Can I help it if some of them just so happen to author non-sensical and sometimes highly offensive mumbo jumbo (usually targeted at GG/TI, one of the many notable figures listed above, or some poor, unsuspecting victim) on a regular basis? No.
I wasn’t sure how to respond when I was called out by “name”. I will say that based on the list I am flattered to be in such good company – but there are many also missing off your list (I’ll spare the popularity votes – but trust, there are so *many* more people who are more visible, more prolific, more succinct, more intelligent, and use less or no cuss words). I have enjoy learning from many commenters here and appreciate when I need to re-think my position … and will shift accordingly … and have. Some of those commenters have since taken a hiatus and I do miss them. Some new commenters offer interesting and valid viewpoints and I hope they will continue to express themselves (in spite of certain snide, catty, and snarky comments made by our regular zoo of trolls). And yes, sometimes I troll trolls … I’m an imperfect human being. Sue me….
If I have been, as you put it, “… publicly calling upon some intelligent member of the Intercept Staff to implement at least one of several alternatives to rectify the situation.” then I can only take credit for two things I’ve asked specifically for:
1.) https://firstlook.org/theintercept/article/2014/03/20/inside-nsa-secret-efforts-hunt-hack-system-administrators/#comment-14141
2.) begging for an edit button.
I’m just a girl, asking questions, looking for answers, trying to figure out how the hell we got to this point in history. The Intercept and these comment boards are my “village pub”. Sometimes I offer my thoughts, sometimes poetry {cough}, sometimes I’m just mouthy – and sometimes I dance while laughing my ass off … but hey! I’m Irish – we live for this political shit. It’s in my DNA.
“I’m just a girl, asking questions, looking for answers, trying to figure out how the hell we got to this point in history. The Intercept and these comment boards are my “village pub”. Sometimes I offer my thoughts, sometimes poetry {cough}, sometimes I’m just mouthy – and sometimes I dance while laughing my ass off … but hey! I’m Irish – we live for this political shit. It’s in my DNA.”
I read your “recommendations” to the intercept when they were first posted; they are not without merit.
The Irish in me appreciates the “Irish” in you; you would be deemed a worthy opponent at our dinner table where contrary opinion of worthy import is relished – albeit that you are almost always wrong (Sorry, I couldn’t resist) .
I truly appreciate the fact that you afforded Mike the benefit of your experience/insight without the usual deriding commentary attached.
@Wilhelmina: “I truly appreciate the fact that you afforded Mike the benefit of your experience/insight without the usual deriding commentary attached.”
Me: “I generally like to respond to individual comments rather than target a commenter as a whole.” “Some new commenters offer interesting and valid viewpoints and I hope they will continue to express themselves (in spite of certain snide, catty, and snarky comments made by our regular zoo of trolls). And yes, sometimes I troll trolls … I’m an imperfect human being. Sue me….”
@Wilhelmina: “…albeit that you are almost always wrong ”
Me: Whatever… funny thing is, so few people agree with -you- (except a few exceptions noted above) I’m surprise you have time to notice how many people actually agree with me. Oh, wait – that’s right, I almost forgot. You lurk, cut & paste people’s historic commentary to make some random point to justify something about groupthing or bullying or some other such nonsense. I forgot how much free time you have on your hands for that … must be nice to just sit around and ponder the many ways to disagree with someone in such a sincere and earnest manner. That’s why I choose to respond to individual comments … It’s only after I’ve gotten familiar with certain “characters” does their true personalities become evident – and makes it appear as if I’m picking on someone. It’s not you doll, it’s just about almost everything you say. That’s all.”
@Wilhelmina: I read your “recommendations” to the intercept when they were first posted; they are not without merit.
Me: {THUD}
@Wilhelmina: “The Irish in me appreciates the “Irish” in you; you would be deemed a worthy opponent at our dinner table where contrary opinion of worthy import is relished”
Me: “Aw… that’s sweet. I’ll take a pass though. I don’t like to waste good vittles on a food fight – and darlin – and it WOULD happen. Trust.”
Me: “Aw… that’s sweet. I’ll take a pass though. I don’t like to waste good vittles on a food fight – and darlin – and it WOULD happen. Trust.”
I wouldn’t have it any other way as long as you mined your manners in the process :)
You make me laugh and that is a good thing.
Um, no. I have done no such thing, and nor have most of the others on your list.
I neither know nor care whether Mr. Wolf and Sillyputty are engaged in “PsyOp.” Nor have I called for anything to be “done about” Wilhelmena; indeed, I have specifically noted that I do not intend to complain about her to TI management. (Nor is it my guess that Glenn would see grounds for moderating Wilhelmena.)
It is my view that Mike Wolf is abusing the message board with irrelevant, lengthy bullshit that dilutes the value of the comments section, whether such is his intent or not, and ditto for his “friend” Sillyputty. At some point, this could reach a volume in which I and some others would bring that to management’s attention.
But it hasn’t happened yet, that I am aware of.
Firther, I take a dim view of publicly compiling lists of those who supposedly agree to that which they have not agreed, especially about moderating others. I oppose any viewpoint moderation at all, and only* support deletions and banning when a commenter is habitually and voluminously flooding the place with rambling, off-topic shit.
And when I wish to communicate that sort of objection to TI management, I will do so privately, and not wage a public campaign on this board.
*Plus anything clearly illegal or approvingly racist at levels usually found at Stormfront — but not views that others insist constitute “hate speech.”
Thanks @Mona. I’ve certainly seen my fair share of boards that are filled with hateful, vile, heinous viewpoints – which I do admit has put me off in the past. I’m not ashamed to admit that THIS website is the very first one that I’ve ever commented on, because no matter what I personally agree/disagree with – I’ve never seen it stoop to those levels … and I hope it never does.
I never really understood the purpose of moderating comments – except for going off topic. you’ve enlightened me. Thank you.
You are certainly clear on multiple points. I respect that.
Your name is redacted from the list and I apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused you.
“Firther, I take a dim view of publicly compiling lists of those who supposedly agree to that which they have not agreed, especially about moderating others. I oppose any viewpoint moderation at all, and only* support deletions and banning when a commenter is habitually and voluminously flooding the place with rambling, off-topic shit.”
There are other alternatives to actual moderation, regardless of who or when it is applied. For example: Type key character limits on comments entered and/or limiting the number of comments per article that any individual commentator can make. Another possible solution to commentator abuse or monopoly is to open an alternative comment board for commentators who have contributions which exceed Type key Character limitations or have “editorial” opinions to enter.
At no time did I mention, nor suggest or advocate “deletions or banning.” any one.
You are free to your opinion regarding my methodology in attempting to alleviate the problem. In fact I concur that your method would have been better and would certainly have saved space.
Beyond that….more said would be an exercise in futility.
If Mike Wolf is a PsyOp — and I have no evidence one way or the other — that’s one elaborate and time-consuming PsyOp.
If anyone is surprised by supposedly “friendly” allies doing dirty dealings with “enemies” one need look no further than Switzerland. They played both sides of the fence during WW2 too. And they made a fortune off it!!!
The Swiss maintained their neutrality during WW II, as they did for hundreds of years. They were the only neutral during that war that was able to sustain that neutrality, and at a severe cost which they did not feel compelled to complain about. None of the belligerents liked that, but that’s the way it was. Hitler was furious. The USA’s “Frontline” TV series did a hit piece on our country as late as the 1980s. The Swiss have maintained the oldest and longest-lived true democracy in the world (about 3 times as long as the USA). They plan on continuing, whether the US likes it or not.
@Pete: Srsly? Then how is it that their banks STILL suffer from obesity left over from their gorging on the proceeds of all those families who got pushed into the ovens and starved to death? They’re still working their two-step ho-down line dancing act to continue hiding everything in the safety deposit boxes… gold, jewelry, artwork, etc…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Jewish_Congress_lawsuit_against_Swiss_banks
They did a great job of appearing “neutral” by claiming their Alps made them too much trouble. They may have a long-standing democracy – but there’s blood all over their hands. And comparing theirs to ours makes me cringe … when I think about all the indigenous peoples who We slaughtered, diseased, relocated, poisoned with cheap alcohol and now can only make a decent living with gambling. Even in recent history – look at how Hawaii was hijacked. I’ve lived there – I know first hand why they’re pissed off. And I can’t even complain about the “reverse discrimination” I have seen and experienced myself. I don’t blame them one little bit. It was a dirty deal and they got shafted.
I’m well aware that many people had to die for me to be alive. I will never be ok with how many of those other “peoples” had to die for me to be alive in the good-ole YouEssOfAy. And the fact that we continue to see the the homogenization of “western” cultures and religions across the globe – with little regard for those ancient cultures and languages (which are dying) that were “here” before us makes “us”/”U.S.” no better in the arena of ethnic cleansing. The Swiss were not neutral … just as we have not been … and Democracy isn’t always what it’s cracked up to be … no matter how times it’s been around the block.
Not picking a fight – just venting … and pointing out that we’re no better. I’m a person who has traveled and am sensitive to cultural awareness, curiosity, sensitivity, and acceptance. I’m not someone who says, “that’s wierd” … I prefer, “Wow! That’s interesting. I’ll have to think on that”. Self-righteousness and judgement have no place in peacemaking. I just want peace. And bacon! ;-)
Americans have trouble with the concept of neutrality. Switzerland is not, and will never be, an “ally” of the United States. We are an independent country that reserves the right to do whatever we feel is in our best interests. Unlike many others, we preserved that neutrality during WW II. Hitler was furious, the allies were frustrated, but Gee Whiz, there we were, maintaining a democracy that continues for 700+ years. Let’s see how far the USA gets . . . As far as “dirty dealings” goes, maybe Americans should sneak a peek at their own history.
@peter feldmann: “We are an independent country that reserves the right to do whatever we feel is in our best interests.”
Um … no. We have no business operating under a scorched earth position just because it suits us – and keeps us cushy, warm, fed, & clothed at the expense of others. Please read my comment above ^^^. Based on your quote – that only makes us assholes. I, for one, am tired of feeling like an asshole, ugly American. Especially when I can’t personally keep America from acting like one on the political stage. We fight dirty – I don’t play that. I like a clean fight with no sucker punches or hitting below the belt. Again … I’m not trying to rumble with you. But feel free to respond any way you wish. I’ll either sigh … or swing. I have a little rep for that.
The Swiss, of course were neutral and would be appalled at the idea of being “allies” of the West’s warmongers.
“But what never ceases to amaze me is the ability of the Tommy Vietors – like David Cameron before him – to convince first themselves, and then others, that they are able to issue these denunciations without instantly being driven from the public square in shame.”
uh… Cruz, Palin, Boehner, McConnell, Paul, Ryan, Bachmann, et al… not one of these people is being driven from the public square – in fact – they bask in the limelight at every tea dance they can use their connections with to get free fucking tickets!!!
Shame and shunning have lost all meaning in our society. I vote to bring it back. My stink-eye needs a workout!
This is a poor choice and shows your lack of familiarity with British politics. To be self-deluded, you must believe what you say. But I would humbly submit that Cameron doesn’t believe a single word he has ever uttered, and neither does anyone else. Everyone, including himself, knows he is a simple opportunist. He therefore should be nominated for your political transparency award.
So I’m not sure how you could overlook the president of your own country. He convinced many people, and perhaps even believed himself, that he could change the culture in Washington. Instead, he has been reduced to a mere fund raiser and apologist for the security state, the servant of the very establishment that he once presumed to change. So he not only turned out to be supremely deluded, but has been completely humiliated in the process – evidence of delusion rather than deliberate intent. He therefore was fully deserving of the award that you irresponsibly decided to bestow on the unworthy Cameron.
You’re kind of a judgey tater, huh? While I don’t agree with every single choice he’s made, I think you’re caricaturizing Obama unfairly. Much as it chagrins me, I acknowledge that he is not my personal savior – meant to remake Washington in his own image while somehow sticking only to nice-guy tactics and being only one person in what is, after all, a democracy and not a dictatorship. Besides, the NSA is one issue, health care is another, Syria was another, and on and on – I assume he, like everyone, played the hand he was dealt and made some choices about trade-offs along the way. Sometimes to good effect.
Oh dear. I don’t like disagreements, they’re so stressful! You look stressed, tater. Perhaps you’d like to come back to my place and relax in my Williams-Sonoma deep fr – um, hot tub? Spa treatment ketchup wrap? Don’t you worry, I’m a vegetarian! Oh, wait…
<blockquoteyou’re kind of a judgey tater, huh?I yam what I yam.
You don’t have to apologize. It’s the meat and potatoes types that really frighten me.
“I yam what I yam”
I approve. Like the ancient maxim – “Know thyself. Potato.”
Nice-guy tactics? Nice guys don’t blow up first responders.
Cameron and Obama are brothers from different mothers.
Excellent, excellent article!
Oh my, roll in my swoonin’ couch, Bentley. Ah say, Ah do say son you might be a tad flustered by the delta heat and mayah have to sit yer ass down when finishin’ that ninth mint julep. I sho’ll din’t see this hereyah a’comin’! Lordy criminently, I swo fo skygod, I din’t.
—————————-
I get all twerky like dat when you don’t include me in ‘the swarm’. :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
Oh @Titonwan… your Foghorn Leghorn is pure poetry :-D
“I get all twerky like dat when you don’t include me in ‘the swarm.”
Oh Titonwan you do have a masochistic penchant for self immolation. You remind me of the mythical baby dragon who, in its first attempts at human speech, becomes hopelessly embroiled in a divinely comedic fiery inferno of its own grunts and groans. I do have to admit however, that I have always found your antics entertaining… I fear the day when the smoke actually clears and you truly learn how to harness that fire!
Wow @Titonwan… Wilma wants to see your fire! I think she has a crush on you friend … albeit unrequited, poor dear.
There you go El B… Lift that skirt nice and high so that Titonwan does not have to crawl to safe haven. You must have precious little confidence it Titonwan’s capacity to defend himself in battles of his own making.
Teat-onwan: Mommy, mommy, the other children won’t passively allow me (and mine) to bully them!
El B: Don’t worry my sweet loony toon, mommy has a treat waiting for you beneath her skirt.
Teat-onwan: Oh, mommy! … Oh daddy?!
Dearest fragile flower, Wilhelmenia. Don’t you think you should seek a heavily moderated site, such as, say, CiF?
There, your fee fees are well-protected by mommies, and there’s a report button where you can whimper and mewl about abuse and bullying.
Here, we all wear the Big Boy pants, which doesn’t seem suitable for your ingenue needs and sensibilities.
“Dearest fragile flower, Wilhelmenia. Don’t you think you should seek a heavily moderated site, such as, say, CiF? ”
Well, well, well If it isn’t the ruthlessly diabolical queen bee herself. I am truly honored that you guilt-ridden ass feels the compulsion to join the fray. That’s a nice skirt your wearing… can teat-onwan come out and play?
Oh Wilma … I eat chicks like you for breakfast, with a little salt and chimmichurri sauce. If I just so happen to wink at @Titonwan (at your expense of course) it’s only because he’s so cute and funny. Simmer down doll – no need to get your panties in a bunch. I know how jealous you get, I’m just flirting – same as you, but less provocatively, and with less cleavage showing. And before you start accusing me of being “jealous” of you – trust me I’m not. I’m just prettier, that’s all. Toodles :-*
“I’m just flirting”
Yes, and you do it so well. In fact, your flirtation with truth is legendary.
Well… I see you HAVE been doing your homework … and I will even give you extra credit just for validating my stellar flirting style and legendary truth telling skills! C-/D+ … Buh-bye now … have a blessed and joyous day, girlfriend ;-)
“Have a blessed and joyous day, girlfriend.”
Right back at ya.
P.s. “Wilma” was a nice touch.
When the cave fits the neanderthal, honey – by all means. Say “hi” to Fred, er I mean Newt for me ;-)
“When the cave fits the neanderthal, honey – by all means. Say “hi” to Fred”
(C-/D+)
You are slipping El B, your attempts at derision would have been much better served had you provided this link to “Wilma” the neanderthal along with your commentary:
http://www.neatorama.com/2010/09/30/10-neat-facts-about-the-flintstones-on-their-50th-anniversary/#!BSJCi
See #10
Apparently “chicks” are not the breakfast of champions…
Never stop, Wilhelmena. I love that stuff.
Indeed, I think that should go on my headstone: “Here lies the ruthlessly diabolical queen bee herself.”
(Yup, yer a keeper.)
Thanks again for doing your homework – and for doing mine as well ( my dog ate mine). But I appreciate you having my back. Now I can put a face to your name.
Damn @Mona! … First, LOLOLOLOL!!! Second, this is totally OT but I have a sacred affinity for bees. Mostly due to my obsession with archeology – they are sacred to the Mayans and I’ve been to the ruins and have enjoyed many conversations about them to the Yucatan (sp?) locals (I’ll spare you further elaboration). After this last comment I’d be a proud worker bee for you any day of the week, Queen Bee:
“Worker honey bees are the largest population within a colony. Worker bees are entirely female, but they are unable to produce fertilized eggs. If there is no queen they do sometimes lay unfertilized eggs, which become male drones. Worker bees use their barbed stingers to defend the colony, but after attacking, the barbs attach to the victim’s skin, tearing the stinging bee’s abdomen, resulting in death.
A girl’s gotta eat!
“Thanks again for doing your homework – and for doing mine as well ( my dog ate mine). But I appreciate you having my back. Now I can put a face to your name.”
As long as it is not the face of a pedant…
“The pedant is he who finds it impossible to read criticism of himself without immediately reaching for his pen and replying to the effect that the accusation is a gross insult to his person. He is, in effect, a man unable to laugh at himself.”—Sigmund Freud, The Ego and the Id.
Now, if you and Mona will excuse me, I have to go powder my backwards sloping brow and protruding snout…
Attagirl! That was some funny shit you just said!Noooooooowwwwww can we all play nice?
Replied on the wrong button… ^^^ this was for @Wilma re: nose powdering.
Nice is good when it is mutually reciprocal and accompanied with respect. However, I am a sucker for cats stuck in trees and drowning puppy dogs (and, no, I do not eat them for dinner). So, be forewarned…
Um… have we met? That was an invitation as much as a warning. But I don’t need to tell you – you already know. Maybe you just stick with the kittens and puppies and talk sweet to them. This is not my first time at the rodeo … I always get back on my horse … and I got the buckles to prove it!
“Um… have we met? That was an invitation as much as a warning.”
Let me be more direct for clarity sake. I do not shy away from confronting bullies simply to garner and/or preserve their goodwill or that of those who presume to speak for Glenn Greenwald, Omydar, or anyone else on the Intercept staff. I, also, hold in contempt those that do. All things being fair and equal, civility is always better in my book then the various abusive postures that are so chronically in evidence on every thread. I just do not understand why people prefer to act like ill mannered thugs when a modicum of equanimity and patience has a far greater potential to convey the merits of ones perspective. It appears that many of Glenn Greenwald’s most loyal supporters are collectively intent on further exacerbating the ideological divide that has been meticulously engineered to keep us all at each others throats. Meanwhile, an abiding lack of consensus translates into a further devolution of our civil liberties by the powers that be. It is my belief that a legitimate clash of ideological perspective can only be resolved by means of a respectful exchange of opinion.
The issue-du-jour of off-topic commentary is so insignificant that one is left breathless by the seething acrimony that has been singularly directed at “outsiders” by members of Glenn Greeenwald’s inner circle of long-term supporters. Those that have displayed an unconscionable penchant for the sport of collectively mind fucking anyone who dares to challenge the predetermined consensus will almost always reflexively interpret any moral opposition to their vulgar behavior as the work of the NSA, FBI, CIA, etc. or as the anachronistic rantings of a neanderthal mindset. After all that, too, is merely another strategy to undermine the “opposition.” Let me ask you a question, “If all behavior is narrowly interpreted in a way that conveniently provides a rationalization for the lust that is driving this chronically divisive behavior, then where does it all end? Shall we all just wallow in the muck of ignorance like back-biting feral pigs while the masters of mankind eat their fill of bacon?
@Wilma… Je-Sus Christ. For fuck’s sake … Not THIS again.
“I do not shy away from confronting bullies simply to…”
— So anyone who disagrees with you, calls you on your shit, or comes to the defense of another commenter is a bully? You’re mighty defensive, aren’t you? My guess is you’ve been bullied. I’m sorry for that. But you pick fights and cry “bully” when you get your ass kicked. Check yourself.
“… garner and/or preserve their goodwill or that of those who presume to speak for Glenn Greenwald, Omydar, or anyone else on the Intercept staff. I, also, hold in contempt those that do.”
— I presume to speak for NOBODY except myself. Go back and read over every damn thing you can find I’ve written anywhere on this entire site. You’ll find NOTHING to support that accusation. Step back – you’re outa line.
“All things being fair and equal, civility is always better in my book then the various abusive postures that are so chronically in evidence on every thread. I just do not understand why people prefer to act like ill mannered thugs when a modicum of equanimity and patience has a far greater potential to convey the merits of ones perspective. ”
— Thugs, bullies, blah blah blah. You’re hardly an appropriate bar to measure civility against. You get what you give. Why don’t you curate your own comments for once – you have more than a few “greatest hits” that beg to differ on your various abusive postures. You whine about bullies – but you are a bully. A little self-reflection in equanimity and patience departments might merit a better perspective of you – by yourself – and by everyone else subject to your word vomit.
“It appears that many of Glenn Greenwald’s most loyal supporters are collectively intent on further exacerbating the ideological divide that has been meticulously engineered to keep us all at each others throats. ”
— Don’t put words in my or anyone else’s mouths while accusing us of some fucking conspiracy against you or anyone else. If we support Glenn should we just shut the fuck up and let him get lampooned and racked over the coals of every two-bit hater that crosses HIS website. He offered up this board!!! He might expect, nay, APPRECIATE a little support after all the shit he and his team + family have been through. But “We”, his supporters have engineered no such GG Fan Club – it just is … but when you find yourself on the other side of the ideological divide that’s on YOU. No one has anybody by the throat. Quit playing drama queen bee.
“Meanwhile, an abiding lack of consensus translates into a further devolution of our civil liberties by the powers that be. ”
— SRSLY? Are you with the ACLU of fucking comment boards now? If you need a consensus to validate your every brain fart then this might not be the place to pin your hopes — unless that is — you start talking like a normal person and not a civil rights attorney serving papers on anyone to is violating your “freedom of anti-groupthink and anti-bullying” rights.
“It is my belief that a legitimate clash of ideological perspective can only be resolved by means of a respectful exchange of opinion.”
— That’s RICH!!! Isn’t that what we JUST managed to get to? Call me crazy but it appeared (from where I was sitting) a hatched is buried between you and me … until I found you trying to plunge it in my back with this piece of utter horseshit manifesto.
“The issue-du-jour of off-topic commentary is so insignificant that one is left breathless by the seething acrimony that has been singularly directed at “outsiders” by members of Glenn Greeenwald’s inner circle of long-term supporters. ”
— Yes, I can tell YOU’RE SEETHING BREATHLESSLY! For the fucking record read my previous comment. I’ve never ever participated on a comment board before this one in my entire life! How the fuck did I go from “outside” to part of his “inner circle”. GG doesn’t even know who the fuck I am!!!! Would I like to have the guy and his husband over for dinner? Shit yeah – I’d also like to throw a God Damned Black and White Ball for the whole fucking lot of his friends and family – just so I could meet Ed Snowden!!!! But that’s never. gunna. happen. even. in. my. wildest. dreams. !!!!! Who do you think I am/we are??? SRSLY – what the fuck are you even talking about?
“Those that have displayed an unconscionable penchant for the sport of collectively mind fucking anyone who dares to challenge the predetermined consensus will almost always reflexively interpret any moral opposition to their vulgar behavior as the work of the NSA, FBI, CIA, etc. or as the anachronistic rantings of a neanderthal mindset.”
— If you think I’m mindfucking you trust me sister, I’m straight! And even if I wasn’t you sure as shit wouldn’t be my type. Stop with all the 3-letter “words” … I think you’ve confused acronyms with anachronistic rantings … you’re more paranoid than the NSA, FBI, CIA, etc. combined. And sweetheart – YOU sent me the snapshot of your neanderthal portrait … the evidence is saved for posterity in the thread below. Sorry you hate to look in the mirror – maybe you should work on your make-up a little more. Or at least wash your face and comb your hair.
“If all behavior is narrowly interpreted in a way that conveniently provides a rationalization for the lust that is driving this chronically divisive behavior, then where does it all end?
— Lust? Again – you and me? Nevah!!! Sorry – I can’t break it to you more gently than that. But if I EVER get a hard-on for you it’s only when you start ranting like a banchee on people who conveniently provide rationalization which you have verbal seizures over – it’s chronic with you. … Deal with it … or better yet – do us ALL a favor – and find another comment board better equipped to deal with your psychosis!
“Shall we all just wallow in the muck of ignorance like back-biting feral pigs while the masters of mankind eat their fill of bacon?”
— I don’t wallow or muck. But I know my way around a farm and a rodeo. And when ignorant back-biting feral pigs cross into my territory I will shoot that fucker – gut it – cut it up and share all the fucking ham, bacon, pork chops, ribs and everything else they offer at my fucking barbeque. Then I’ll fry their fucking skin and crunch on the Chicharrón with hot sauce! And FWIW – I also make bacon candy.
I don’t know if you’re drinking, or bi-polar, or what … but I also know my way around the DSM and you’re profile is in there. But your main problem is you love to play the Karpman Drama Triangle. You’re an olympic athlete at it. The game is YOU play all 3 parts – the victim, the villian, and the rescuer. You’re textbook. Maybe check it out and quit tossing the hat around. You’ll never win. Only losers lose … and honey, if this 180 from our last “conversation” is any indication – you’ve just lost your ever-loving mind.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpman_drama_triangle
@El B
Gee El B, where is all that “flirtatious” glib humor that you are so fond of dispensing at the expense of others. Could it be that I hit a raw nerve? How does it feel to have someone use your own tactics against you? Look at how worked up you got over a few words by an anonymous poster in a virtual reality. It sucks to have someone callously toy with your feelings, doesn’t it? Care for a rematch? Or, “do your want to play nice?”
As I’ve told you before — you’re nothing more that a creepy, freaky, disturbed, obsessive-compulsive (and perhaps alcoholic, meth addicted, manic depressive, socially anxious and/or paranoid schizophrenic) psycho stalker. You have quite a rep here already. And evidently you have quite a crush on me, and your attempts at flirting with me are grossly overrated (and delusional). My callouses kick your callouses every day of the week and a month of Sundays. And jus-so-you-know – you can’t work me up in the least – or even {oooooooooh} skurr me. I have moves you’ve never even seen dollface. Sucks for you… Now why don’t you go and take your meds or drugs or whatever salve or ointment you need to go to sleep or roll out of bed in the morning.
And – “Let ME be more direct for clarity sake” – You don’t have enough brain cells, bullshit or restraining orders to rattle my cage. My nerves are made of titanium and diamonds. And any attempt at reverse psychology on your part is as hilarious as it is pathetic. ROFLMFAO!!!! Unless – that is – you actually enjoy making an ass out of yourself in front of this entire forum to only have it saved in perpetuity for all to mock and laugh at through eternity. That’s the genius of your anonymous virtual reality … and the internet. But really, it’s just a waste of your time, as well as everyone else’s here.
Whether you try to “mindfuck” me or we play nice is entirely up to you. I don’t even need condoms to protect me from you … you on the other hand are merely a festering STD burning up these airwaves. Do what you like…. but if I don’t respond it’s out of mercy – I don’t want to trigger an aneurysm – or a cyst – or another hemorrhoid – or a psychotic fugue. But you’re probably out “there” hitting refresh every 5 seconds just to see this reply. So you can reply back… tonight. Poor thing – bless your little heart.
OMG! I’m already bored of you… {Yawn/Stretch}. I’m sure you’ll be thinking all night long, on your fluffy pillow, of all the things you’re planning on telling me the next time we cross paths here. I can just see you – lurking every comment board known to man just to copy/paste one-liners and rimshots you think will “hurt my feelings”. Whatever – hope those words don’t roll on a loop in you head … all night … every night … forever. Sleep tight sweetheart. {Hugs}
@El B
“As I’ve told you before […] Bzzzzz Bzzzzz Bzzzzz […] sweetheart.”
The only thing more gratifying than the sight of morally bankrupt individual attempting to make appeals to standards of behavior that they themselves hold in utter contempt is the temper tantrum that they throw when they fail.
Preferences noted.
With President Obama visiting Saudi Arabia today and tomorrow, why has the media failed to report how Saudi Arabia treats gay men and asked why President Obama remains silent about this?
“I have no patience for countries that try to treat gays or lesbians or transgender persons in ways that intimidate them or are harmful to them.”
– President Barack Obama (The Tonight Show, August 6, 2013)
FACT: In Saudi Arabia homosexual conduct is punishable by death.
“Instead of targeting our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters, we can use our laws to protect their rights.”
– President Obama (Address to European Youth, Palais des Beaux Arts, Brussels, March 26, 2014)
FACT: In Saudi Arabia gays are often banned from schools, thrown in jail, and even whipped simply for the crime of being gay.
When it comes to Saudi Arabia, President Obama has infinite patience “for countries that try to treat gays or lesbians or transgender persons in ways that intimidate them or are harmful to them.”
As the President concludes his visit to Saudi Arabia today, the complete silence from LGBT groups and the media is baffling.
By remaining silent we abandon LGBT individuals in Saudi Arabia who continue to be executed for who they love.
The voices that protested Russia’s laws should be a million times louder against Saudi Arabia’s laws yet the world remains silent as Saudi Arabia executes gay men.
“In Saudi Arabia homosexual conduct is punishable by death.”
How many gays have been put to death by the Saudi Government for the act of sodomy alone?
What proofs were required to render a death verdict?
It used to be that people waited until they had put in decades of government service in Washington before cashing in. These days they do it after a year or two in congress or the white house. It must be an indication of how near the end we are.
That’s a wild thought. Hurry, get your cash now because bomb/survival shelters have large waiting lists! Don’t be caught in the hell of our money making schemes the will unleash horror not seen since the Black Death®! No standing in front of the rapidly spinning revolving doors of government to private to government to GET IN THEM PANIC ROOMS! There’s POOR FOLKS and they look PISSED!
And after realizing all that, I suggest a nice feel good movie- ‘The Road’.
Coming to a community near you.
speaking about Glenn and the billionaire Omidyar funded Intercept – Robert Jensen said today, “the boundaries in mainstream journalism have never stretched far enough for conventional newsrooms to embrace—or even take seriously—a fundamental critique of capitalism.” Too bad Glenn poses as a radical journalist when he’s just promoting Capitalism….
You’re talking about unbridled capitalism which I agree can be a destructive force. But when capitalism is bridled to serve the state, the way it currently is in the US, Russia and China, it can be a formidable steed that gets you to your destination (whatever that is), very, very quickly.
Yeah, well I am also the proud owner of an asshole and an opinion. Except Glenn has gone at length to explain how this gig works and some of us read it, understood it and found it reasonable. Now if you have links to support your fuckin’ stupid ass assertions, now would be the time to supply them, honcho.
This is and always will be the FREE™ part of this website. If they want to charge for exclusive content- well that’s their right. What, you think websites run on moon beams and fairy dust? Are you telling me Cronkite and Murrow were working as non profit? How did they pay their bills? Lame, man. Lame.
@Doug Valentine: “Too bad Glenn poses as a radical journalist when he’s just promoting Capitalism….”
uh… then what does that make Rupert Murdoch, Roger Ailes, Brian Roberts, Ted Turner, Oprah Winfrey, et al PRAY TELL?
I know. It’s like rescuing a small puppy and then it grows older and bites you because of rabies.
See, capitalism didn’t exist until Glenn started bitchin’ about it and then the whole dorm was kray kray from day one, amirite? The after them pervs started drillin’ holes in the girls shower stalls, well THAT’s where all the ‘socialisms’ started with their dang’d markist’s tude’s cam frum’ .
You DO REALIZE THAT GFENN is A DAgnED LIbierTIAn, don you?
God, get a life. You out there, bahummingbug? Good.
Srsly … where have you been all my life?
You Guys and Gals are amazing!
The comments section is more entertaining than the article itself.
You mental dexterity and general eloquence is truly spirit lifting.
Thank You
You’re a dickhead.
Dear barncat
I can only assume your surname is dickhead. I can however assure you that we are not in any way related.
Regards Klaus
Sorry, Klaus. You referred to entertainment, so I thought that’s the kind of thing you meant. There was more of it in the previous thread. Thanks for a nice comment. Hope to be reading you soon.
Strange. I want to pet your little pea brain head and strangle you at the same time. That was wickedly funny and yet cruel in a kind way.
I got two on ya, now.
Pings, glitches and life forms.
I think I may have gotten through this embargo.
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/mar/28/google-news-organisations-targeted-state-hackers
https://www.mozilla.org/security/known-vulnerabilities/firefox.html
Impact key:
SSL
(Undetectable spoofs of SSL indicia would have “High” impact because those are generally used to steal sensitive data intended for other sites.)
To users of firefox: New vulnerabilities addressed in latest version. Update now to 28.
Playing catchup is tiresome
But hey seems ***my and *****1880 were right.
Dont get caught out by suss SSLs.
Undetectable ? sometimes not so much.
How do you know you are at the Intercept, if the SSl is intercepted?
It would be great for Glenn to come clean about at least one thing: Glenn, you need to admit that yes, YOU TOO, when it comes to freedom of speech, will never dare to tread beyond a certain line. I keep waiting for SOMEONE, ANYONE in the thick of the snowden affair to have the courage to connect the dots and as consequence, reveal them. The whole picture remains hidden so long as it remains dissembled and fragmented. Mainstream press is all about respecting certaim lines and never veering from the script, so forgive me if I expect far more from the courageous few. My greatest frustration, however, is with us – the mass receptors of every new tidbit of nsa/snowden information, We The People – precisely what does this mean?
@Mario Zuniga: “have the courage to connect the dots and as consequence, reveal them.”
… uh – that’s exactly what he’s doing. If you’ve got a magic wand you’d like to loan out to Glenn then by all means give it up just so he/they can do their jobs faster … and perfectly. Otherwise might I suggest an ophthalmologist.
As it should be the U.S. will not, hopefully, be drawn into any more major wars. Thank God it cannot afford it. The U.S. is bankrupt many times over if the figures I read are correct. $17 Trillion and counting. The world does not need any more interventions, anywhere, by this country, seeking to maintain God knows what weird program it has recently latched onto.
This is a good point. A small war can destabilize a foreign country just as effectively as a major one. Compare Iraq and Libya. Both had the same effect of destroying those countries, forcing them to produce more oil in an attempt to rebuild. But the Iraq war was much more costly and therefore far less efficient. And another advantage of small wars is that you can wage far more of them. Obama has a dream that one day drones will become so cheap, the US will be able to wage multiple small wars in 30 or 40 countries simultaneously. The man is a visionary who, like most visionaries, is not sufficiently appreciated in his own time. So I’m glad to see this no more ‘major’ wars meme being circulated.
@Tom O’Farrell: “Thank God it cannot afford it. The U.S. is bankrupt many times over if the figures I read are correct.”
… they still have your social security – that’s been the ATM card they’ve been using this whole time.
You do understand that the biggest puppet government on the planet is the United States Government.
Also, wars are profitable. They will not bankrupt the nation, they will enrich it. Why do you think we fight wars? Money is everything to these people, they would not waste it in their lifelong quest for more money. They are addicted, and rationality goes out the window.
Also, the fact that they are psychopaths, meaning they can’t feel any sympathy for anyone, means that they would send people to die so they could make more money.
Not only will the US be drawn into war, the US, especially through the National Endowment for Democracy, is trying to start World War III. You can find that out for yourself by going to the NED website and finding the pages for the countries they have been busy in: Tunisia, Egypt, Lybia, Syria, Iraq, Iran, China, and…the Ukraine.
Remember, these are the same people who live by the belief that greed is good. Why would it be difficult to imagine they also live by the believe that war is good…
@Mike Wolf: ^^^ Thanks for that ^^^ … and I’ve gone on record by theorizing the very reason they are downsizing the military while ramping up the technology is they’ve got their eye on a prize killer app … fewer armed service personnel + drones = no black cars driving up to deliver “bad news”, no need for Walter Reed hospitals, no need for veteran entitlements/benefits, etc. —- they can play their War Games sitting from a cushy command deck of the U.S.S. Enterprise. It’s cheaper and provides a shit load more control and fear among the masses … and they can cross whatever borders they deem desirable. Who can stop that genie out of the bottle?
Yes, exactly the future is targeted killings, and terminator units.
@Bill Owen… can’t tell if you’re being sarcastic or entertaining my “theory” … just the same – I appreciate your viewpoint and would welcome any thoughts you might have. Do I have a leg to stand on? Or am I full of myself? No flippancy on my part… just curiosity.
The Saudi’s flog and imprison people for the crime of homosexuality, with the death penalty being an option for repeat offenders. Russia’s homophobic policies, which involved fines for certain speech, recently occupied hours of air time. How much outrage will be devoted to something infinitely worse? Oh right, they ensure the flow of capital to the West.
The U.S. defends freedom and opposes tyrany by supporting the saudi tyrant. I oppose racism by financially supporting the KKK.
It is interesting. Normally people do not discuss major problems on the phone. The danger of misunderstandings is too big. But it seems to work very easily in politics. One call and the problem is solved. The next day – another problem, another call. Those who are democratically elected, are fine with the situation, the others go to prison. Junior Monopoly? Who is able to afford taking a break? None.
One issue I disagree with Mr Galloway on is his Just Saw Naw campaign to encourage Scots to vote to remain in the Union. Surely Scottish people deserve self-determination and to be free of the tyranny of Westminster.
Sorry typo there… it’s Just Say Naw, not Just Saw Naw
I like “Saw Naw” better. Just sawing away.
George Galloway is Scottish.
I know because I met him and he gave me photos of Che Guevara. He can’t vote in the referendum though because he lives and works in England.
Che Guevara, the well known child murdering terrorist.
@ bill jones – I wouldn’t normally reply to a crude comment like yours but it’s actually a nice story and says a lot about the man (George Galloway that is) so I’ll go ahead.
I was a teenager in the mid 90s, studying history and doing a project on the Cuban Revolution. I was supposed to interview a source as part of this project and it was a big chunk of the final mark. I managed to arrange to meet George Galloway, Labour MP for Glasgow South, who had met Fidel Castro several times.
George gave me his whole lunch hour at the House of Commons, lots of very insightful information that I used, and finally when I left a framed picture of some copies of photos that he said Fidel gave him. I found him to be a very courteous, pleasant and generous man.
He later became one of the darlings of the anti-war movement when he was one of the few Labour MPs to resign his position over the invasion of Iraq.
Someone with the knowledge, respectability and integrity of George Galloway would never own and cherish pictures of Che Guevara if he actually was a “child killing terrorist”.
A completely typical but nonetheless absolutely disgusting example of the hypocrisy mentioned by Mr Greenwald is the support for the Sisi dictatorship in Egypt exemplified by war criminal Tony Blair – http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/egypt/10610715/Tony-Blair-praises-Egypt-coup-as-military-leader-aims-for-presidency.html
The stories coming out of Egypt right now are as shocking examples of a brutal military police state murdering protesters as I have heard.
I suggest any one reading this sign this petition to try to prevent the execution of 528 protesters from a single judge, the largest mass death penalty conviction in the last 100 years – http://www.avaaz.org/en/stop_mass_execution_loc/
I thought I’d give an update on some of the responses to this article and GG’s exchange with Tommy Vietor on Twitter.
Thus far I could only find one article from titled “Just the Good Parts: Glenn Greenwald’s Latest Rant, Featuring ‘Imperial Washington'” which is (obviously) critical of GG. Can’t say I’m familiar with the site and its politics, but if you glance at the comments section, it’s almost the antithesis of TI.
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/43225_Just_the_Good_Parts-_Glenn_Greenwalds_Latest_Rant_Featuring_Imperial_Washington#jvKChKcT3MxOuhGh.99
As for outlets hosting this article, there’s not much else other than Iran’s Television Network and Common Dreams, but they don’t add any analysis.
Now to the Twitter Exchange (Vietor is @TVietor08), focusing only on back and forth between Glenn and Vietor unless the exchange includes other commenters:
Conversation Start
1. @Green_Footballs – Greenwald viciously attacks Tommy Vietor for criticizing Maduro’s jailing of critics, but can’t find a single word of criticism for Maduro.
2. @TVietor08: [Glenn’s] got kind of a neo-McCarthyism vibe going. I appreciate the irony.
3. @TVietor08: [Glenn] can make this as mean and personal as you want, but you’ll still always be my favorite twitter cyber bully!!! :)
4a. @ggreenwald – Are you being bullied, Tommy?
4b. @ggreenwald – I didn’t realize criticizing senior national security state officials-turned corporate spokesmen was now “bullying” #TearJerker
5. @TVietor08 – Its your go-to move! Leopoldo Lopez is friends with friends of mine. We’d like to see him not get jailed for life. Get outraged!
6. @ggreenwald – How about the friends of those jailed or killed by the regimes your administration funded & armed? Do they count?
7. @TVietor08 – Yes, absolutely. They all count. How about criticizing all these actions equally rather than just attacking?
8. @ggreenwald – Can you point me to where you’ve criticized Obama for supporting regimes of Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Egypt & other Gulf monarchs?
Ha! 4a is kind of funny. Entirely subjective, but I like Greenwald’s droll, almost bemused tone when addressing the personal (as opposed to the substantial / factual) attacks of his critics. To me it reads as “I’m surrounded by crazy people. But they’re kind of cute.” Better than getting drawn into the drama and feeling threatened by it, I think.
It must be extremely disappointing for you that Greenwald does not live up to your high standards. Is he your son?
that was for NSA Nate.
What exactly are you rambling on about Bill?
And the whole “NSA shill” thing is so predictably lame. Such lies only make you look foolish. Someone disagrees with me!? He must be a paid NSA agent!
It’s just rhetoric. Game playing. I don’t know that you are an agent. But I think that the constant attacks on Greenwald – to the extent you or others engage in, often amount NSA/State water carrying.
I think things are very bad in America what with your spook/mil state and hence the world. I further believe that Snowden/Glenn/Laura and the others are trying to do something about it. Is it RADICAL enough for some (See rancid/sibel/floyd and friends)? No.
Is it a step in the right direction? Absolutely, and I, for one, support this.
If there are substantive criticisms, such as the pace, or about the details of what should or should not be be released, have at it. But I don’t see the vast mass of the criticism directed toward Glenn that way. I see it as many things that are not productive, jealousy, sniping, trolling, state supporters, tribalism, purism, reactionaries and, of course and for sure, the work of actual, paid and trained cognitive disruptors in the employ of our shadowy masters.
Where you are on that spectrum is something I have not concluded and may never will due to the lack of actual evidence.
You’re a smart guy. You write well and some of the things you say make sense. To the extent we disagree I will disagree. If I think someone is trolling, “working” or is supporter of the spy/war machine, I shall go on the end. I will fight them. I will fight them in comments, I will fight them on youtube, on instagram, and when the day comes, in the streets.
Our freedoms are at stake. Many of them are gone already, this is serious.
LGF is infamous/famous. Where have you been? The site owner is a fucking maniac.
You seriously are not aware of what Little Green Footballs is? Well, it is run by a man, Charles Johnson, whose career was virulent Muslim-hatred (until about the time Obama was elected), and whose comment section is, indeed, quite different for this one. From wiki:
Actually, all reasonable people with any familiarity with LGF believed it was a hate site. Now it is just an Obamabot, anti-Greenwald site.
Mr. LV426 ?@mrlv426 6h
@ggreenwald The only way Saudi human rights abuses will get much play in the US is if Snowden goes there.
https://twitter.com/TVietor08/status/449608379561156608
As Matt Stoller notes, the “we” says it all.
Our deep state uses the progressive/liberal mantle of the Democratic Party as cover. Social Welfare as a transaction of Military Financial Industrial Complex. From Obama’s low info personality cult to cynical operatives like Vietor, the entire spectrum revolves on selling cognitive dissonance as a practicality.
Really @Nate? It’s almost as if you’ve deluded yourself into thinking you’re some kind of “journalist” and we’re all just sittin’ over here panting away … hanging on your every word … so we can finally decide for ourselves that our own critical thinking (and reading skills) are so inferior to yours we should just roll over and scroll past all other comments just so we can listen to your “impartial” lectures. I gotta ask, do you work for Fox News?
p.s. you’ll never be a touchstone for reality … or sanity. Have a blessed day :-D
What a pointless and false comment… I am quite well aware I am in a Comments section of a website. Also, I don’t recall any claims of being “impartial.” you do know how to use quotes right? If you don’t like what I have to say, don’t engage the contents of my posts, and only plan to attack my character as you are trying here, don’t read my posts, it is that simple!! You’re just a troll to me.
@Nate … fair enough. I’ll do that if you promise to spare us your play-by-play synopsis and commentary on whatever in the hell it is YOU think WE should be paying attention to.
“You’re just a troll to me.” … out of the mouths of babes – honey, only trolls troll. If it makes you feel special and important then I declare you King of Trolls {POOF} {Fairy dust, glitter, rainbows, unicorns, and kittens}. Happy now?
No, I will continue to post whatever the hell I feel like and you have two options: (1) continue to sit there, grinding your teeth, whining like a child, or (2) ignoring all my posts and saving both of us precious time.
@El B, I am honestly confused regarding your view of what “trolling” is:
“honey, only trolls troll. – El B”
Versus:
El B, which is it? I’m asking not for parody, but for clarity and consistency.
Thank you,
Blanca
@Blanca… just a play on words, on my part. I don’t like trolls – but I was admitting that I might/do, in fact, troll them right back – when I feel they’re being particularly obnoxious or abusive to someone else. There are some regular trolls here that are both. My experience has been they hypocritically call anyone who trolls them a “bully” … but ultimately they can sure dish it out – they just can’t take it.
Partial definition of Troll
2. informal
submit a deliberately provocative posting to an online message board with the aim of inciting an angry response.
… and sometimes they just walk away in a huff never to be heard from again. I troll comments – not a person on the whole.
You’re welcome :-)
Assessing morality in the absence of categorical imperatives is something that has concerned me since I stopped believing in categorical imperatives. The best alternative I’ve come up with thus far is to identify the locus of narrative control in any person or group and assess what I think of that. What are they defending or promoting? An individual ego? A set of values? A particular agenda or ideology? Etc. The proposition that, if you believed it, would cause all following claims to make perfect sense. Not an easy task, as most people have more than one, but not generally mind-bogglingly complex either.
It does make sense to me that, for a nation, this would be national interests. But if we profess to value things like intervening for the sake of human rights, then it’s important to point out inconsistencies here and, more importantly, if there’s a trend in inconsistency that points to some obviously competing value. Then at least we can upgrade that statement (We support human rights *when…). Everyone has probably been in the position, at least once, of being confronted with seemingly hypocritical behavior, and rebutting with “But surely you can see how in *this case it was…” The million dollar question is what ‘this case’ denotes. In this case this is me-wonderful-me we’re talking about, and if it feels justified to me it must be obviously justifiable? In this case there were unusual circumstances? Another, more important value at stake? Assessing this as a nation is, I think, an arduous but important task.
@Nic: “Assessing morality in the absence of categorical imperatives….”
e·go·ism
nounETHICS
1. an ethical theory that treats self-interest as the foundation of morality.
Morals have flown the coop in Washington. All we’re left with are the foxes in the hen house. Hopefully they’ll start cannibalizing each other – starting with each others nutsacks.
Hi – thanks for what you are doing, I no longer see the documents section. Is it coming back? Hope so.,
@Craig Summers
And to help them maintain their apartheid and occupation of the people whose land they confiscated and whom the continue to oppress and steal from. Yes, we definitely should pay for the F-16s they buy from U.S. corporations to kill civilians in Gaza and maintain them in an open air prison. (And we should continue to be nearly the only other country besides Israel to vote against UN resolutions condemning Israeli actions.)
But Israel’s human rights abuse shouldn’t be spoken of. No, only, according to you, Syria’s sins are appropriate for “outrage.”
I bet Craig can’t explain this one: Why does Israel have a right to retaliate militarily when it gets attacked, but the Palestinians don’t? Is it because they are a non-state actor, or some technicality of the sort? Is it because of the sophistication of the weapons at their disposal? For example, would it be OK if they used highly targeted Tomahawk missiles instead?
Note that Israel has the inferior moral claim, as they are the occupying force, the state actor, and also the superior power.
Suicide belts are immoral, but A-10 Warthogs, Hellfires, AC-130 Spectres with their Vulcan chain guns, these, are, wonderful. From God.
goddammit Bill..if words were weapons you’d be a WMD on steroids.
Absurd to the max, ain’t it.
It’s funee. I didn’t dream that after watching ‘Catch 22′ I’d be living ‘Groundhog Day’ from then on.
From then on.
From…
For Zionists such as Craig, yes. Nevermind that the State of Israel was birthed with Jewish terrorists, two of whom would be elected prime minister, and for which organization, the Irgun, there is a memorial museum in Israel.
You mean that there was something wrong with blowing up the King David Hotel? What the hell is wrong with you Mona? Where is your moral compass?
goddammit Bill..stop..yer killin me.
I still maintain that the bombing of the King David Hotel was arguably a legitimate act of resistance to occupation and not “terrorism” as commonly understood, given that the hotel housed the military headquarters of the occupier.
@gator Arguably. For sure what constitutes a target, has varied from time and place throughout history. The attempted burning of entire cities such as Dresden and Hamburg was considered legitimate, albeit odious, in WWII, as they housed factories, rail yards, etc.
I’ve also read that a telephone call warning of explosion was made to the King David Hotel, but not in time to evacuate. The IRA used similar tactics with their car bombs, they would call to warn so as ordinary people had time to flee.
There is a very interesting book, now out of print, called “The Velvet Glove, the Decline of Morality in War” that makes a good case for how we, as humans, have become progressively more inhumane and callous in our wars. It would probably never would occurred to Napoleon to destroy an entire country on the grounds that they were “staging areas” as the Americans tried to do in Laos and Cambodia, in the process killing several million people. A number that is hard to believe, but true. To this day in Laos someone is killed or maimed by UXO (unexploded ordnance) almost daily.
This may be reversing itself. Entire populations will no longer be targeted, instead it’s to be decapitation strikes, drones, and targeted killings, all of that informed and directed by total information awareness courtesy of the NSA and friends.
“…….For Zionists such as Craig, yes. Nevermind that the State of Israel was birthed with Jewish terrorists, two of whom would be elected prime minister…..”
Not quite, Mona. Israel was birthed from a proposal to divide Palestine into two states (UN). The Jews accepted the proposal and declared independence in 1948. The Palestinians rejected the proposal. The true beginning of Israel began, however, in the late 1800s from Jewish immigration (Zionism), but their “legal “ legitimacy was derived from the incorporation of the Balfour Declaration into the League of Nations mandate (1922?) creating a national home for the Jewish people. At any rate, some Palestinians resisted. They were led by the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem who opposed Zionism (Haj Mohammed Effendi Amin el-Husseini). He led the violent Arab riots of 1920. This is what led to the creation of Haganah and their offshoot, Irgun (1931). Yes, Irgun was a Jewish terrorist organization which was created (ultimately) in response to Arab resistance (terrorism) to Jewish immigration.
“…….and for which organization, the Irgun, there is a memorial museum in Israel……”
Don’t be so shocked, Mona. Arafat – who was responsible for the second Intifada – won the Nobel Peace Prize.
“………I bet Craig can’t explain this one: Why does Israel have a right to retaliate militarily when it gets attacked, but the Palestinians don’t?….”
I think they have every right to retaliate when they are attacked – military targets.
The leadership of the Palestinians has let their people down since 1948 which has led to the current situation. The road to Palestinian “perdition” began when Arafat decided to take up arms and achieve the unlikely result of driving the Jews into the sea. In 1967, the Arab armies attempted to do the same. Every bad decision has led to economic hardship, death, invasions – and the settlements.
I oppose the continued expansion of the settlements because this will inevitably backfire in the long term, but the Palestinians (and Arab leadership) only have themselves to blame for the current state of the Palestinian people.
@CraigSummers: “but the Palestinians (and Arab leadership) only have themselves to blame for the current state of the Palestinian people.” … #horseshit
Israel has been terrorizing them for decades upon decades and are guilty of a genocidal holocaust – they/we are total hypocrites!!! You just refuse to put yourself in Palestinian shoes and see it from their point of view. Nice ~
“……Israel has been terrorizing them for decades upon decades and are guilty of a genocidal holocaust – they/we are total hypocrites!!! You just refuse to put yourself in Palestinian shoes and see it from their point of view. Nice ~….”
Genocidal Holocaust? Please. Quit abusing the terms. Israel is guilty of settling the West Bank after the Arab armies attempted to annihilate the Jews in 1967. That’s when Jews began settling in the West Bank and Jerusalem.
Just remember: there are far more Palestinian Arabs (Israeli citizens) living in Israel than Jews left in the greater Middle East (by far). About a million Jews have been expelled for no other reason than they were Jews living in Arab countries after the creation of Israel.
@Craig… read any ancient text starting with the Bible, Koran and Tanakh. Then check out the Eastern religions. Everything that’s being done in the name of those teachings goes against their very principles and core values of peace, love, and forgiveness. But it stops none of them from picking up weapons and trying to annihilate their neighbors (and in some cases “allies”) out of jealousy and greed. They just cherry picks their favorite passages to justify an “eye for an eye” and “sins of the father” … it’s nothing more than purely evil racism – they’re just doing it in them name of “defending” their real estate. Only God or The Creator or Great Spirit or whatever you call Him has the right to hand out death sentences … unless it’s being done for the sake of the truly innocent and defenseless. That is the only way it’s ever justified as “noble”.
Make no mistake – I see you – and you are just as bad to defend the atrocities … even when your only weapons are words of war. Whatever that makes you – have fun with that.
El B – you wouldn’t know a “genocidal holocaust” if it bit you on the tit. You make yourself look foolish by using words when you obviously haven’t a clue what they mean.
“……..Everything that’s being done in the name of those teachings goes against their very principles and core values of peace, love, and forgiveness…..”
You are joking aren’t you? You don’t give one flying fuck about what’s in the bible, Koran or any other religious book.
“…….They just cherry picks their favorite passages to justify an “eye for an eye” and “sins of the father” … it’s nothing more than purely evil racism – they’re just doing it in them name of “defending” their real estate. …..”
Yea….an eye for an eye. The alternative didn’t work very well in WWII (the real Holocaust – not the fake ones you make up). And it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to understand that this is a war over land intermixed with religious extremism. And of course, it’s those “racist” Jews that are the problem . We all know how open minded Arab society is. Religious and ethnic bigotry are at epidemic levels across the Middle East (especially antisemitism) – and that’s before we even get to the issue of women
Israel is a democracy – the only one in the Middle East – with a growing Arab minority population.
gen·o·cide
noun
1. the deliberate killing of a large group of people, esp. those of a particular ethnic group or nation.
hol·o·caust
noun
1. destruction or slaughter on a mass scale, esp. caused by fire or nuclear war.
Suck on that till you’re blue in the face @Gator90
“You are joking aren’t you? You don’t give one flying fuck about what’s in the bible, Koran or any other religious book.”
— You must be new around here. This entire website (in the comment section) is littered not only with what is obviously my knowledge on those subject (generalized). I myself haven’t smelled you until recently – but I sure see the flies buzzing around your piles of shit. (p.s. Fuck off – you don’t know SHIT about what my beliefs are … and I have no doubt you are polluted with hate – fuck off!)
” (the real Holocaust – not the fake ones you make up)”
— yeah, cuz there’s only ever been one “real” one in history. Good God man, do you know nothing? The word “holocaust” wasn’t invented after WW2. Maybe google it sometime – then don’t call me, baby.
“We all know how open minded Arab society is. Religious and ethnic bigotry are at epidemic levels across the Middle East (especially antisemitism) – and that’s before we even get to the issue of women”
— I have know many Arabs and Jews and the fact of the matter is you’re cherry picking a select minority of extremist terrorists. Their culture and their people have shown me how much beauty they have offered throughout history in the way of music, poetry, art, food, and family. And it centers around their love of the religion they practice. You are a racist, sir.
“Israel is a democracy – the only one in the Middle East – with a growing Arab minority population.”
— I’m not surprised … especially since Jews are right now protesting the mandatory draft exception for religious studies. While they continue their slaughter and appropriations of the Palestinians their army is shrinking. It’s just the math, honey.
@El B: I’m happy to report that the Palestinian population has roughly tripled since Israel’s founding. If the Israelis are attempting genocide, they are staggeringly incompetent at it.
Everyone knows what the Holocaust was. Your invocation of it in the context of the Israel/Palestine conflict is pig-ignorant at best and bigoted poison at worst.
Gator90
“……..Your invocation of it in the context of the Israel/Palestine conflict is pig-ignorant at best and bigoted poison at worst…..”
I think in this case it’s just “pig ignorant”. If it’s bigoted poison, it’e because he is pig-ignorant. So either way……….
@ Gator90 : ” If the Israelis are attempting genocide, they are staggeringly incompetent at it.”
— Yeah, you’re right about that. Who do you think is delivering them weapons hand-over-fist and providing the brass knuckles & muscle to beat the “terrorists” into submission?
“Everyone knows what the Holocaust was. Your invocation of it in the context of the Israel/Palestine conflict is pig-ignorant at best and bigoted poison at worst.”
— God, don’t make me repost the actual definition again. The context and meaning are not mutually exclusive to the Jews/WW2. SRSLY – expand your knowledge a bit and learn to apply the concept to more than just one particular point in history. Pu-Leeze!
@CraigSummers:
“I think in this case it’s just “pig ignorant”. If it’s bigoted poison, it’e because he is pig-ignorant. So either way……….”
— Couldn’t have been stated by a bigger pig. Oink Oink, Babe.
(p.s. I’m a “she”, not a he … just so you can make your next statement more accurate … for Christ sake, after all I’ve said to challenge your arguments all I get is poor historical knowledge and pigs? I guess I win then. Get back to me when you have something that can really challenge my ignorance. :-D
@El B: In modern common usage, the term “holocaust” is universally understood to refer to the Nazi genocide against Jews. You know this. Everyone knows this. You like to use the word (instead of the many other words you might use) because it has power. Its power derives solely from its association with Nazi genocide against Jews. Given that reality, using it against Israel is an extraordinarily mean-spirited way to “stick it to the Jews.” Nothing more or less.
gen·o·cide
noun
1. the deliberate killing of a large group of people, esp. those of a particular ethnic group or nation.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/genocide
hol·o·caust
noun
1. destruction or slaughter on a mass scale, esp. caused by fire or nuclear war.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/holocaust
History of the word “holocaust”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust
Definition of Ignorant:
1) a : destitute of knowledge or education ; also : lacking knowledge or comprehension of the thing specified
1) b : resulting from or showing lack of knowledge or intelligence
2: unaware, uninformed
Definition of PIG
3: a dirty, gluttonous, or repulsive person
6: slang usually disparaging
Don’t make me send you the definition of dumbass…
p.s. quit trying to rewrite the dictionary … and history. It doesn’t suit you.
Full Definition of GENOCIDE
: the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group
Full Definition of HOLOCAUST
1: a sacrifice consumed by fire
2: a thorough destruction involving extensive loss of life especially through fire
3. a: often capitalized : the mass slaughter of European civilians and especially Jews by the Nazis during World War II —usually used with the
b : a mass slaughter of people; especially : genocide
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/holocaust
History of the “word” Holocaust:
“This usage came about gradually. The lower-case “holocaust” has described the violent deaths of large groups of people probably since the 18th century, according the Oxford English Dictionary. Before World War II, the word was used by Winston Churchill and others to refer to the genocide of Armenians during World War I.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/27/the-word-holocaust-history-and-meaning_n_1229043.html
Full Definition of IGNORANT
1 a : destitute of knowledge or education ; also : lacking knowledge or comprehension of the thing specified
b : resulting from or showing lack of knowledge or intelligence
2: unaware, uninformed
Partial Definition of PIG:
3: a dirty, gluttonous, or repulsive person
6: slang usually disparaging : police officer
… don’t make me look up the word dumbass for you, too.
“………I bet Craig can’t explain this one: Why does Israel have a right to retaliate militarily when it gets attacked, but the Palestinians don’t?….”
Craig’s response (snipped):
“I think they have every right to retaliate when they are attacked – military targets.”
If only the Israelis weren’t using civilian shields (a common excuse used by the right wing for killing civilians), and their weapons were not so much more superior, I’m sure the attacks would be on their military. What an imbecilic remark.
@John… I’ve been tapping my toe waiting on this too – seems our friend has fallen silent. Maybe it’s just a rhetorical question?
Assad is a terrible man who should be harshly condemned, but a neocon who dismisses the atrocities committed by his own country lacks the moral standing.
“……..Assad is a terrible man who should be harshly condemned…..”
But not here, Doc. Not at the Intercept. You will need to go elsewhere for any real condemnation of Assad or Putin. Imperialism is OK if it’s not the US.
But of course, criticizing ones own government and its partners-in-crime means you approve of similar or lesser atrocities elsewhere. Got it. Let me try this out:
Craig, why aren’t you condemning the torture of the inmates at my local prison, the abuse of the Tibetan people, and of the mistreatment of the indigenous peoples of Australia? If you do not write about what I think is most important, then by all that is holy, you must approve of all those things! I thought you were better than that.
Now, that’s fun, you can paint anybody anyway you want with that technique. I like it. Thanks Craig!
Seriously, you could simply go find the journalism you are looking for elsewhere, or keep being a complete dick, whatever works best for you. Don’t worry, we can handle it. Keep waving that pathetic little thing around. I’m sure somebody will compliment it.
“…….But of course, criticizing ones own government and its partners-in-crime means you approve of similar or lesser atrocities elsewhere. Got it. Let me try this out….Now, that’s fun, you can paint anybody anyway you want with that technique. I like it. Thanks Craig!…..”
Apparently, you aren’t familiar with Greenwald, but that’s still no excuse for ignorance. Greenwald is simply not interested in anything other than the US and her allies. He is US-obsessed as are many of his supporters who posted at Salon and the Guardian in support of everything that Greenwald writes. The US is the “evil empire”. No one else comes close except for Israel. That is one of the defining characteristics of the political extreme left.
Publication of the NSA documents really has nothing to do with “privacy” or the Fourth Amendment. This is all about exposing and undermining US intelligence and reach – and driving a wedge between the US and her allies. No matter what were the true motives of Snowden to steal the documents, Greenwald’s are much easier to understand. There is a whole body of evidence he has published in the past to understand his motives.
Free Tibet.
Thanks.
99.9% of terror attacks against Israel and America were and are instigated by those respective nations behavior.Very simple,but I guess not to simpletons,right CS?The other .1 are false flags.
Craig wrote:
“Apparently, you aren’t familiar with Greenwald, but that’s still no excuse for ignorance. Greenwald is simply not interested in anything other than the US and her allies. He is US-obsessed as are many of his supporters who posted at Salon and the Guardian in support of everything that Greenwald writes. The US is the “evil empire”. No one else comes close except for Israel. That is one of the defining characteristics of the political extreme left.
Publication of the NSA documents really has nothing to do with “privacy” or the Fourth Amendment. This is all about exposing and undermining US intelligence and reach – and driving a wedge between the US and her allies. No matter what were the true motives of Snowden to steal the documents, Greenwald’s are much easier to understand. There is a whole body of evidence he has published in the past to understand his motives.
Free Tibet. Thanks.”
Apparently you aren’t familiar with people that try to hold their own country accountable, but that’s no excuse for ignorance. A country that has bombed more other countries than any country you can name, a country that is the most powerful on earth. A country that has supported brutal dictators all over the world, crushed multiple democracy movements in other countries, incited coups to overthrow elected governments, the only country to use 2 atomic bombs on large civilian populations, a country that has used various chemical weapons on many occasions, a country that has one of the largest imprisoned populaces in the world, a country that is the most prolific weapons developer and spreader ever, a country that was born from genocide and built by slavery, a country that has done more to destroy the environment that we all live in than any other … I could go on, but you get the idea, or do you? Probably not. Keep waving that flag. It will make you feel better while you tell one of the best journalists in the world what he should be writing about.
A human being from that country would have to be be extremely stupid, nationalistic, self centered, hypocritical, and yes, ignorant to care more about the abuses of others than he does about the abuses of his own…. abuses he could have some effect on. Glenn is not that person, but there are plenty of assholes like that for you to choose from. In fact, just look in the mirror. You are likely to find one such person staring back at you with a little flag lapel pin, and Fake News blaring in the background.
@John Kelly: ^^^ everything. you. just. said. ^^^ Thanks
(WTF why are my comments being eaten, attempt 3 )
So does this mean the US will be renewing it’s support for Syrian Rebels (largely the same Organizations the US has denounced and droned for the last decade) at the least financially? I see this as way to put pressure on Russia for Crimea indirectly and continue to erode their Natural Gas dominance, by again threatening to disrupt Russian/Iranian Natural Gas pipelines that must transit Syria. With the US expanding Fracking, Oil is old news it’s all about natural gas these days.
Natural Gas Dominance:
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/03/americans-dont-know-ukraine-crisis.html
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/10/the-wars-in-the-middle-east-and-north-africa-are-not-just-about-oil-theyre-also-about-gas.html
I think they just get temporarily misplaced. I posted one last night that didn’t show up until this morning. My guess is that there is some glitch in the system.
Jeeze, Glenn, why do you have be so critical? Don’t you remember our government is just trying to keepussafe? Except for you, of course. You, they’d throw in Gitmo.
The deal is they sell us oil, we sell them very expensive weapons systems etc…in dollars. We have a similar deal with Israel with our 3-5 billion dollars in aid each year (75% has to be spent on US defense contractors).
There have been plans for a long time to seize the Saudi oil fields, if the basket case country loses control. Although it would be embarrassing, since we’re a democracy…cough, cough. The Saudi’s are lying about what’s under the ground…basically they’re running out of oil or an earthquake could mess up their supplies. The US has been developing other sources, which is why they’re not walking in and out of the oval office, like in the Clinton administration. Venezuela has tons of oil (granted not being managed well), as does Columbia under the rebel held territories.
I have an idea, let’s get all those scientists working for the NSA and DARPA to solve the energy problem. Don’t you people want to lead useful lives that don’t involve stalking and torturing your fellow citizens and other targets around the world? Do something good while you’re on this planet!
Use oil for products not fuel, start immediately converting internal combustion engines in the first world countries. Then we don’t have to support Attila the Huns…sitting on a lake of oil.
@AmericanGestapo14
I thought that these articles might help you round out your understanding of the relationship between Saudi oil and arms.
Tax Breaks for Big Guns
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/1999/04/tax-breaks-big-guns
In Big Win for Defense Industry, Obama Rolls Back Limits on Arms Exports
http://www.propublica.org/article/in-big-win-for-defense-industry-obama-rolls-back-limits-on-arms-export
Crisis of Confidence
1977 speech by President Jimmy Carter
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/primary-resources/carter-crisis/
Break in OPEC Oil Increases Please Carter
Dec 18, 1976
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1891&dat=19761218&id=C6QfAAAAIBAJ&sjid=GdYEAAAAIBAJ&pg=2909,2864864
1973 Oil Crisis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_oil_crisis
Outstanding suggestion. Skygod knows they have the talent. “If only he had used his evil genius for good’ (Superman).
We’re gonna need a space program level attempt to end this climate catastrophe barreling down the pike, that’s fer shure.
@AmericanGestapo14: “The US has been developing other sources, which is why they’re not walking in and out of the oval office, like in the Clinton administration. ”
Obama bows to the Saudi King while taking conference calls and scheduling golf breaks with the Kochwhores, Kochdealers, and the all the Kochsuckers so they can pencil in a fastrack for Keystone XL from Canada and rail filthy, dirty oil across our country and ship it to China and wherever the fuck else the Kochroaches want. (Oh that’s right, because he’ll add 35 permanent jobs to the market – and nepotism won’t play into that at all, riiiiiight?) Meanwhile Obama is also rubber stamping the rape and destruction of Mother Earth to frack natural gas while polluting and destroying water tables all across America, and with offshore rigs. So what if there’s a natural disaster? Spill/Schmill … no harm/no foul/no criminal charges/fines are pennies on the billions of dollars. Besides, Nestle has plenty of water rights … and they deliver!
Why do you think he has such a hard on for Ukraine?
“…….the all the Kochsuckers so they can pencil in a fastrack for Keystone XL from Canada and rail filthy, dirty oil across our country and ship it to China and wherever the fuck else……. Meanwhile Obama is also rubber stamping the rape and destruction of Mother Earth to frack natural gas while polluting and destroying water tables all across America, and with offshore rigs……..Why do you think he has such a hard on for Ukraine?…..”
Oh I don’t know. How about it’s illegal to invade and annex part of a sovereign nation?
I should have realized you were an enviro-wacko. About 80% of the world’s development over the next thirty years will be in the third world. The infrastructure and industry necessary to sustain the development won’t come from capturing the energy from waves my friend. Coal, natural gas and oil will likely power the development. We are all fucked.
@CraigSummers: “We are all fucked.” … no, just you darlin. Keep you head in their sand but don’t cry out when they’re sticking it to your sweet ass. In the meantime, I’ll be over hear looking at the big picture.
“I should have realized you were an enviro-wacko” … I’ll take that as a compliment. I’m also a humanitarian, too. Dumbfuck!
“…….I’ll be over hear looking at the big picture…..”
WTF…….Mars?
Well Craig … they ARE still looking for intelligent life forms. Perhaps you could, you know, tribute yourself for the next mission and escape the future hunger games. I bet I could take up a collection just to make sure you get a seat on the shuttle.
Two things about Saudi and it’s oil.
Canada is the largest supplier of US oil and has the second largest proven oil reserves.
The United States, due to fracking, has unlocked truly vast supplies of oil within it’s own territories.
So why all the love for Saudi, one of the worst countries in the world for it’s treatment women, total lack of democracy, it’s support for AQ, etc. etc.
Do you know where your oil comes from?
bit.ly/1f23ZEM
US surges past Saudi to become the world’s largest oil supplier
//reut.rs/1f244Ik
bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-27/obama-visits-saudi-king-as-u-s-oil-boom-shifts-alliance.html
*this is my 3rd attempt posting this, I took the http off the links in the hope that it will go through.
**You want a complaint? This attempt at implementing a comment section is abysmal. Please use the Disqus plugin and put it out it’s misery. I thought there were be more resources for this website then what I see here so far. Thanks!
Hi, Bill.
Yup, the comment section is embarrassingly awful. The Disqus plugin would be a huge improvement. Suggestion seconded.
Don’t be too sure that the US fracking cornucopia is what we’ve been led to believe it is. I’m pretty certain that the reality is quite different.
Starting place: Shale Bubble
Multiple links seem to stress the software here, so I’ll split ’em up.
Shale promises or shale spin? ~Deborah Rogers
On the subject of fracking, here’s the soundtrack to a 25 minute length shadow puppet show I took part in. Sorry, there’s no video yet unfortunately. Much more fun to be able to see what the team is doing with our scenery and our shadow puppets, but the soundtrack is a fun and educational listening experience about fracking. Be sure to glance at the photo and to read the introduction so that you’ll have a better idea what the play looked like and is about.
I played the banjo that you’ll hear, also harmonica later in the play. I also wrote a part of the dialog and did the voice for the guy who sounds Darth Vadar like.
I hope the link works. It’s a Soundcloud link.
What the Frack
Yup, it works, Kitt. “Sounds” great.
Let us know when there’s video, please.
Thanks Doug, that was fascinating and quite credible. I was shocked by the scale of the fracking. These data certainly change the equation.
Yeah,i agree that the shale oil supplies are not what they claim;What else is new from serial liars?
Two things about Saudi and it’s oil.
Canada is the largest supplier of US oil and has the second largest proven oil reserves.
The United States, due to fracking, has unlocked truly vast supplies of oil within it’s own territories.
So why all the love for Saudi, one of the worst countries in the world for it’s treatment women, total lack of democracy, it’s support for AQ, etc. etc.
Do you know where your oil comes from?
http://bit.ly/1f23ZEM
US surges past Saudi to become the world’s largest oil supplier
http://reut.rs/1f244Ik
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-27/obama-visits-saudi-king-as-u-s-oil-boom-shifts-alliance.html
Hey n e one ever hear of a guy named Jacabo Arbenz?
Ultimately we must all question authority. If you agree with it, fine, at least you sounded it out for yourself. Question authority. Yes, including The Intercept’s.
The real point I think is that no country’s occupants at this point really have a say regarding world politics, and often no real say that much domestically either. Most countries seem run as elaborate theater. AUTHORITARIANISM, the superstitious worship of ‘leaders,’ or superiors, prevails almost universally.
Iceland may be an exception, I’m not sure.
White folk in the West are often distracted from all this, and feel no chains particularly binding them, for of course until the tether is tested the yankback of it is unknown.
Yet the spirit of the US – if I may be forgiven a little romanticism – is ideally if not historically an expression of LIBERTY and not authoritarianism, and this rings true still, I find, when everyday Americans wake themselves up to the racism-stirring, sexism-stirring, militarized and corporatist shadow the theater of politics casts on their normal context of everyday life.
Americans timidly hope we can avoid war by being loudly plaintive and optimistic, when we could simply accept non-interventionism as the basic principle of the Constitution it should be and be done with it.
Authoritarianism is not the “superstitious worship of leaders or superiors.”
If there were to be a socialist revolution in the U.S. (yeah, I know, you folks are all capitalists and socialism is the evil), there’s very little argument that once the socialist project is constructed, efforts to democratize must be made.
But a revolution is the essence of authoritarianism. What could be more authoritarian than one class imposing its will on all other classes by the threat of violence.
I strongly suggest all so-called anti-authoritarians read Engels’ remarks on anti-authoritarianism. It’s one of the (many) issues where capitalists go off the rails.
Full disclosure – I am a socialist and proud!
Oboe, although we have disagreements I understand the basis of your statements. Please post a link to Engel’s remarks on anti-authoritariansim, as well as perhaps specific quotes. I am not familiar with the text, but I am sure it will be available on Marxism.com
Engels? Are you serious? And where did I wish violence on anyone? I find the US Constitution to be a remarkably anti-authoritarian document, and I approve of it. Evidently so do the many who swear an oath to protect it – not that the oath means squat, obviously – meaning it isn’t really all that vague.
Explain yourself, please.
There are various interpretations of the US Constitution. The one that resonates most with me is Charles Beard’s Economic Interpretation of the Constitution. Charles Beard’s historical theory is the major influence for Howard Zinn’s A People’s History of the US, which I think speaks volumes.
For further reference here is a link:
http://thenewschoolhistory.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Beard_An_Economic_Interpretation_of_the_Consti.pdf
Thanks for the link, it is indeed a fascinating interpretation, which I’ve yet to complete reviewing.
My point was about the ‘philosophical’ thrust of the US Constitution’s existence, which I find much too coherent to be mere clever cover for (well documented) exploitation.
We are all of us a mixed bag, but sometimes a tone or chord is struck by one or more of us that resonates in humanity with a deep conviction of liberty, and I believe for all their faults the Framers hit such a chord in designing this pattern that – if followed – would lead to less authoritarianism culturally.
It’s hundreds of years old, but its innate moral aspirations are still inspiring.
In my interpretation.
Nonetheless, Iceland’s example, uncluttered with all this (and actually jailing bankers) may be the most ideal future.
Zinn has little to no comprehension of the notion of liberty, nor the constitution. I wouldn’t trust him to interpret my phone bill.
@Cindy – If you turn to chapter 1 and read the very first paragraph you will realize that your statement – “sometimes a tone or chord is struck by one or more of us that resonates in humanity with a deep conviction of liberty” (1) – is very similar to the first of three schools of American history Beard challenges, namely the Bancroft school (2) – “the movement of the divine power which gives unity to the universe, and order and connection to events.” Essentially, I think you are saying that the Constitution speaks to an inherent emotion that yearns for freedom. But, I think that the way people relate to the concept of freedom is determined by their time and place in history, which would mean that there is no static concept of freedom, as is well articulated in Kant’s What is Enlightenment (3). This is a great debate that should be had more often.
(1) http://thenewschoolhistory.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Beard_An_Economic_Interpretation_of_the_Consti.pdf
(2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Bancroft#Historian
(3) http://www.columbia.edu/acis/ets/CCREAD/etscc/kant.html
@seer – you couldn’t even get in the room to audition for a role as a pimple on the ass of Howard Zinn’s dog.
@Oboe: “If there were to be a socialist revolution in the U.S….”
That’s why Blackwater, et al has been quietly passing off the military equipment, ammo, & training (that our taxes paid for) to just about every local law enforcement agency that wants to play G.I. Joe (that our taxes also pay for) and show up for every parade, march, rally, or wienie roast in riot gear. They’ve already taken steps to quash and squash any civil unrest. “We’re” outgunned even if they’re outnumbered … the police own our ass if you haven’t noticed. It’s a suicide mission to even consider it…. IMHO
All the more reason to educate yourself. The only futility is being futile. While I have no Rousseauian illusions of the general will, I still believe that people can not only be persuaded to think, but also inspired to want better. If we can change the debate from wanting more, a proposition that is predicated on continuing the model of growth and commodity production that has already devastated our environment, and will continue to expand pass the point of no return, if it hasn’t already and we are now counting down to ecological catastrophe, to wanting better, than we can at least begin to think and relate to each other and our environment in a new way.
Part of the problem is an intellectual class that hides in the walls of the Ivory Tower. Another part of the problem is our obsession with politically correct morality that so often becomes puritanical and competitive (e.g. I am *more* multicultural than you (aka Brooklyn-DeBlasio disease) – My carbon footprint is *less* than yours (aka Ecological Puritanism) – You didn’t protest the St. Patricks Day parade because you really harbor homophobic feelings (aka Coercive Shaming) – etc…). But, the most SIGNIFICANT obstacle is that we lack political and sociological imagination. When we start to imagine alternatives to make the world BETTER we will no longer measure each other on the politically correct scale of puritanical values, but instead accept each other as flawed humans, and move towards our shared goals… shared goals of which can only be brought forward from a rigorous debate among educated people who are not afraid to be, dare I say, wrong!
Let’s let the shallow politics of the 70’s fade off into the dustbin of history. Let’s be in 2014.
http://www.thenation.com/article/178873/how-revolution-became-adjective
@aminco humani generis: — ^^^ YES YES YES ^^^
” When we start to imagine alternatives to make the world BETTER we will no longer measure each other on the politically correct scale of puritanical values, but instead accept each other as flawed humans, and move towards our shared goals… shared goals of which can only be brought forward from a rigorous debate among educated people who are not afraid to be, dare I say, wrong!”
— ^^^ LURVE ^^^
Glenn, please? Help me understand.
I’m a Fortune 20 corporate comm guy who devours words and opinions. I’m over-the-top impressed with your Snowden reporting.
Your personal life choices are out there — and good for you, brother,
What I can’t get my head around is your world view, in a nutshell.
I thought I knew, but the Israel comment here reminded me: I don’t.
Maybe you’d say that given your stage, that’s good. But I’d love to see something like Glenn’s 10 Truths of Life … just so me and others like me (assuming it’s you, not me ;) might better understand.
So does this mean the US will be renewing it’s support for Syrian Rebels (largely the same Organizations the US has denounced and droned for the last decade) at the least financially? I see this as way way to put pressure on Russia for Crimea indirectly, by again threatening to disrupt Russian/Iranian Natural Gas pipelines that must transit Syria. With the US expanding Fracking Oil is old news it’s all about natural gas these days.
Natural Gas Dominance:
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/03/americans-dont-know-ukraine-crisis.html
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/10/the-wars-in-the-middle-east-and-north-africa-are-not-just-about-oil-theyre-also-about-gas.html
“To the Tommy Vietors of the world, the Maduro government isn’t bad because it “illegally jails opposition leaders”; it’s bad because it opposes US policy, refuses to obey US dictates, and defeats neo-liberal, US-subservient candidates in popular elections.”
I feel slightly sorry for this pretty young apparatchik on account of him being in Glenn’s crosshairs, but I had to repeat this statement in order to make a point:
Greenwald did not write anything here in support of Maduro. He used this example of precious, stylized establishment pearl clutching vis Maduro to highlight the general cynicism that prevails within this Administration, and Washington in general. The bulk of this post was a heavily linked condemnation of our “special relationship” with the Arabian petrostates.
Commenters who promote the bullshit theory that Greenwald was lauding Maduro……… should be regarded as apologists for the Saudis. And disregarded accordingly.
Well said. I concur and adopt as my own view.
“Well said, I want to kiss your ass as my own.”
“I concur with this view out my window.”
“Thank you your kindness in appealing to my ego.”
“I must second this before I third it and fourth it.”
Lame attempt to run up page views, or tribal anxiety? You be the judge.
Is that your idea of multiple choice, or did you just run out of “originality” before finishing onto choices c,d,e,&f?
One word: Occucards. LOL.
That’s two words. Counting is hard, I know.
But, failure to sufficiently denounce and call for regime change is evidence of undying devotion and support.
/neocon
Mr. Greenwald
It’s not just by coincidence that you selected one of the more inflammatory anti-Israel and anti-Zionist political activists to quote.
“……Selecting the year’s single most brazen example of political self-delusion is never easy, but if forced to choose for 2013, I’d pick British Prime Minister David Cameron’s public condemnation of George Galloway. The Scottish MP had stood to question Cameron about the UK’s military support for Syrian rebels……”
Galloway’s criticism of British support for the Syrian rebels stands as one of the most anti democratic and anti Muslim statements made by a member of the British Parliament – and the response by the west to Assad’s massacre has been nothing short of pathetic – supplying limited arms and training to the rebels because of western fear of helping the Islamists. Over 140,000 people have been murdered to data in the three year old civil war which started when Assad crushed a democratic movement associated with the Arab Spring.
The Syrian (Arab) people demanded little more than a say in their government, Mr. Greenwald. Assad – the murderer – had promised reforms after he was appointed by Daddy President-for-life. He used tanks, warplanes and heavy artillery against defenseless people. He has been accused of numerous war crimes by the UN, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch including the execution of 11000 prisoners. He was accused of using chemical weapons on a civilian population. He continues to starve entire areas in Syria to flush out the rebels.
US and British support for the rebels has been nearly nonexistent – an embarrassing fact which has only emboldened the Islamic terrorist organization, Hezbollah, to enter the war on behalf of their Ally, Assad. Hezbollah is politically active in Lebanon – and has put that country at huge risk to return to their brutal civil war which only ended two decades ago. Russia has provided arms and support for the Syrian regime, but when is imperialism not imperialism? Possibly Professor As’ad AbuKhalil could provide some more insight so we can better understand British and American imperialism (The Intercept; “RT Host Abby Martin Condemns Russian Incursion Into Crimea – On RT”)
:
“………Imperialism is to have the temerity to lecture and hector Russia about the evils of intervention in the affairs of its neighbor, Ukraine, where the U.S. and EU are blatantly conspiring against Russian interests there…….”
Indeed, Mr. Greenwald, Russia television probably has been at the forefront of disclosing Russian support and ties to the Syrian regime which – like Crimea – apparently falls within their sphere of influence.
By the way, how does exposing “western hypocrisy” help one single person in Syria? It seems more like an exercise in self-gratification – always fighting the imperialist west and bravely shrugging off criticism while people are being murdered in a conflict in which the west has essentially played no part.
Hmmm, Craig, you open with a whine that Glenn quotes someone whom you take to be anti-Israel, and further along report this about Assad:
Surely, Craig, you are aware that Israel competes for title as holder of most UN condemnations and resolutions?
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stat/un.html
And the United Nations, of course, is universally acknowledged as the world’s most authoritative and unbiased judge of the actions of the neo-Nazi nation Israel.
“……..Surely, Craig, you are aware that Israel competes for title as holder of most UN condemnations and resolutions?….”
I surely can’t argue with that, Mona. But I can say that the total amount of Palestinians killed by Israelis since and including the first Intifada (mid 1980s) probably numbers less than 8000. That’s quite a bit less than the number of PRISONERS suspected of being executed by Assad. That’s an amazing statistic which puts in perspective exactly how brutal the Assad regime is. Between 600 and 1500 Palestinians have been killed in Syria…..where is the outrage?
My country, the United States, is neither directly nor indirectly responsible for those deaths.
We are, in contrast, rather directly responsible for Israel’s crimes.
We are responsible for supporting Israel’s right to live free of terrorism – and of helping Israel to maintain their military superiority. This has discouraged the Arabs from attempting to win a military victory (like in 1948, 1967 and 1973).
Hopefully, the Palestinians and Israelis will come to an understanding which will lead to peace.
Where’s the outrage? Everywhere Craig.
Is the man who killed 10 people “worse” than the one who killed a hundred? They are both murderers, both monsters.
The problem and it is a huge one, is excusing atrocities on the basis of your tribal affiliations.
One thing though, is that ‘we’ are responsible for ‘our’ murders and they are responsible for theirs.
@Mona and you bought it. what about Yank birds dropping Feces to weeding party in APAC Nation neighbors.
Amnesty and HRW are run by Zionists;expect everything but the truth from these corrupt individuals.
“how does exposing “western hypocrisy” help one single person in Syria?”
As an American journalist, Glenn Greenwald is most legitimately concerned with helping his own people by critiquing the failings of our government. Helping “one person in Syria” is a nice idea, but is not at the heart of his duties as a citizen of this country.
It’s also way outside of his beat………. but you know that. Hence the rather lame, lengthy table-pounding in re the po’ li’l Sunni folk of Syria. 40 years ago Summers, you would have been (and doubtless were) a fervent supporter of Muslim minorities – like the Shia, the Alawites even, but most particularly the Druse. They are no longer useful to you, given that the Likudniks have thrown in with the Arabian elites and act as a bloc with them to thwart Iran.
However, it wasn’t always that way, and might not be again.
“…….As an American journalist, Glenn Greenwald is most legitimately concerned with helping his own people by critiquing the failings of our government. Helping “one person in Syria” is a nice idea, but is not at the heart of his duties as a citizen of this country…..”
We are not talking about duties. Greenwald is the first to criticize other journalists yet it’s already clear that we will only get one side of the story about 1-2 countries. The intercept is well funded and he has hired several journalists so there is no excuse for ignoring the important stories in favor of a one sided look at American policies which right now are irrelevant on the world stage with the exception of the NSA revelations which seems to be founded more on anti Americanism than any real concern for civil liberties. Doesn’t his constant singular subject matter prove this?.
His boss helped fund the Ukrainian protests because apparently, he believes in democracy.
Thanks
It doesn’t. How does complaining about Crimea help a single person in the Congo? (Ridiculous, I know, but it’s your rhetoric.)
I get you now. You’re not an American afraid of terrorists or one with a religious/cultural bias. You’re a pure neo-con. That explains the obsession with Russia and China. They stand in the way of total global domination. Syria is just one more country that is not under US influence, but could be. So is Venezuela. Any country that doesn’t fall into this pattern?
I second Jose’s accusation of Craig Summers being an unapologetic neoconservative imperialist.
“……..It doesn’t. How does complaining about Crimea help a single person in the Congo?…..”
But what does the Congo have in common with Syria and Crimea? The Intercept couldn’t care less about any of them (because the US isn’t involved). That’s a sure way of proving that the US has had a minimal impact on the Syrian civil war because Greenwald hasn’t had even one article (that I can remember) on Syria except when Israel bombed weapons depots headed for Hezbollah).
“……You’re a pure neo-con…………That explains the obsession with Russia and China. They stand in the way of total global domination. …..”
Neoconservatives have evolved in time so it’s not simply a matter of categorizing me as a “neocon” because the movement has changed, but, in general, I think that would be a fair categorization in a broad sense. I have changed somewhat since the Arab Spring began. I am a strong believer in democracy, but believe that the Arab people have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that people don’t need to be “kick-started” to become democratic. The Arab Spring is simply one of the great movements of the past 100 years – and will continue for decades. The movement has reverberated throughout the world.
I do, however, believe in “balance of power”, and a weakened US potentially will lead to more war – not less as countries assert themselves over territorial disputes. “Geopolitical interests” works hand in hand with balance of power (especially in the Middle East). I have seen more than a few far left wing posters support the rise of China and Russia as a balance against US power.
I’m sure we will have a lot more discussions on the same topic, Jose.
Thanks.
I would have to disagree. All the Arab Spring turned out to be is the Tunisian Revolution. Egypt was promising, but now it has reverted back to basically the same thing it was, perhaps worse. They now hold mass trials where the political opposition are sentenced to death by the hundreds. Libya is not truly part of the Arab Spring. For one, a true popular uprising is socialist and/or libertarian, and not something planned and executed by a foreign power. Second, that was merely opportunism on the part of NATO on the chance that a non-friendly government would be turned. Syria isn’t either. In short, the Arab Spring was basically deflated and then co-opted by the usual imperial powers.
“…….I would have to disagree. All the Arab Spring turned out to be is the Tunisian Revolution…..”
Hardly. Revolutions don’t occur over night. This is just the beginning. Assad does have the support of Russia, Lebanon and Iran and has held the line against his overthrow. But, his overthrow is inevitable. In fact, bloodshed is inevitable when the status quo is upset like in The ME today.
Millions of people twice went to the streets to overthrow two governments in Egypt. The military rules again, but this is the reason people went to the streets to begin with – to overthrow a US supported dictator. They succeeded electing an ill-prepared Morsi. They took to the streets again and brought down Morsi. Two governments have been removed from power in three or four years.
The military has declared war on the Muslim Brotherhood, but that might come back to haunt them in years to come. The conditions in Egypt are at least as bad if not worse than before Mubarak was removed. People in the millions can even over power the military – and eventually will.
You might be right today, but in the long run, you won’t be.
This is Iran’s problem, not that that might, maybe, someday, possibly, despite the fatwa against them — and they might make an undeliverable unusable, useless nuclear device. No one is worried about that. It’s not even their much exaggerated hatred of the jews.
It’s that fact that they stand against The Empire™ and must. be. destroyed.
“A weakened US potentially will lead to more war…” -How absolutely delusional. If there’s an argument for “balance of power” geo-politics it’s thanks in large part to the example of the post Cold war which has proven the unchecked US to irresponsibly exercise its military as well as so-called “soft” power in many places where it has no business doing so: Iraq, Serbia, Afghanistan Iraq again, Libya, not to mention the innumerable covert wars. We were on the verge on launching what likely would have been our biggest misadventure yet – Syria – if not for the fact that we actually are returning to a “balance of power” where real nations like Russia and China (not simply being hosts for multi-national corporations as describes most Western powers currently) can effectively check our bone-headed aggression lead primarily by neo-cons such as yourself. The time has come to intellectually toss your ilk into the dust-bin of history!
“……..We were on the verge on launching what likely would have been our biggest misadventure yet – Syria – if not for the fact that we actually are returning to a “balance of power” where real nations like Russia and China (not simply being hosts for multi-national corporations as describes most Western powers currently) can effectively check our bone-headed aggression……”
I’m dumfounded by that statement. Do you read? Are you aware that the Russians just annexed a part of a sovereign country? Are you aware that the Russian fund and arm the Assad regime in Syria charged with numerous war crimes? Are you aware that the “civil” war in Syria began as demonstrations against a corrupt authoritarian regime i.e. in support of change that Assad promised a decade ago?
Proposed US action in Syria amounted to a bombing campaign probably aimed at his chemical weapons storage facilities, weapons depots, war planes and helicopters – all which were used to murder Syrians. NATO never had any plans to establish a no fly zone like in Syria. The pathetic response by the west because we fear arming the “terrorists” has resulted in a protracted civil war. Russia has protected the brutal regime at the UN where it has veto power in the Security Council.
Maybe it’s time to direct your criticism at the Syrian regime and their enablers like Iran, Hezbollah and Russia. Yea -thank God for those “real nations” countries like Russia that balance the power of the “Great Satan”.
I get you now. You’re not an American afraid of terrorists or one with a religious/cultural bias. You’re a pure neo-con. That explains the obsession with Russia and China. They stand in the way of total global domination. Syria is just one more country that is not under US influence, but could be. So is Venezuela. Jose
I see that you have his number!
“……..I see that you have his number!…..”
I can hardly become too upset at being labeled a “neocon”. I tend to throw people in categories myself. The original neoconservatives were too socially liberal for my taste, but they have evolved into more pure Republicans. I have tended to support less military intervention today mostly because of the Arab Spring. I opposed the no fly zone in Libya and I also opposed creating one in Syria. However, in the long run both actions might have saved lives.
Libya was on the verge of civil war similar to Syria – but without the regional interests at play like in Syria. We have witnessed the brutality of rulers when their power is at stake. Interestingly enough, intervention in Syria by Hezbollah supported by Russia and Iran has resulted in a protracted civil war where the authoritarian was saved from certain demise. It’s more or less Iraq in reverse – intervention to save a regime rather than remove one.
Thanks Bill
Jose;Neoconlibs are deathly afraid of terrorism.They have no faith or courage or honor.The coward dies a thousand times.the brave but once.
Certainly the people of Saudi Arabia dare not even that. Of course, many of the weapons that we sell to SA are neither necessary nor appropriate for keeping the people in check, but the princes are well armed for any eventuality. US support for the rebels in Syria may less than even luke warm, but nothing like the big chill if it happens in SA.
I am not a big fan of the Saudis – and I hope the Monarchy is overthrown in the near future (of course, it is a given in the long term). However, it would throw things out of whack in the Middle East.
A Zionist who isn’t a big fan of the Saudi;ha.But you’ll use them if you can huh?
“……A Zionist who isn’t a big fan of the Saudi;ha.But you’ll use them if you can huh?…..”
I suspect there are a lot of Zionist that aren’t big fans of the Saudis especially since a verile strain of antisemitism has inflicted much of the Middle East – but especially in SA. However, you really shouldn’t view Zionism in such a negative light. It simply means the national Jewish movement to re-establish a Jewish homeland in the land of Israel. You will find most people support the establishment of Israel without necessarily supporting the continued expansion of settlements which clearly hurts the image of Israel internationally.
As far as “using them” goes, as the old saying goes: the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Geopolitics is a brutal game and is not for the faint-hearted.
Take care.
Syria and the Arab uprisings are a perfect example of Western hypocrisy. There were prominent protests in Bahrain until the Foreign Secretary of the UK, William Hague, and the then US Secretary of Defence Robert Gates visited. Shortly afterwards the the shooting started in earnest and Saudi tanks rolled in to silence the demonstrators. After which the path was clear to support the interventions in Libya and Syria. The relative silence at the ouster of the Egyptian president and the return to the military dictatorship is also glaring.
I just want to say Craig, that compared to our latest crop of outré commenters you are looking like the shining light of wisdom and rationality.
Well, Bill. You are clearly wrong!
Craig,
You are quite hilarious in your choices of examples to make your point.
Let’s see: He used tanks, warplanes and heavy artillery against defenseless people – How many innocent people has the US slaughtered in the last 13 years? Accounts vary but 350,000 is a pretty conservative number.
No matter which side anyone is on, to turn a blind eye to the dozen or so examples where the US has used false pretense to indescriminantly kill hundreds of thousands when no real force has ever attacked us(pearl harbor excepted even though the US gloated them into it, AlQaeda is clearly now a hoop dream of an opponent or shoud I say excuse). It’s so bad here now that I feel completely comfortable throwing the police into the mix as they are killing innocent americans by the dozen under the pretense of officer safety.
I’ll leave you with a good joke I heard recently to lighten the mood.
I usually don’t talk with Obama voters but when I do I’m asking them for large fries with my meal.
“…….Let’s see: He used tanks, warplanes and heavy artillery against defenseless people – How many innocent people has the US slaughtered in the last 13 years?…..”
Well, I think you need to view each US action individually. But of those examples over the last “13 years”, you will never see the US “slaughter” anyone for demonstrating for democratic rights. So the steps taken by Assad – a brutal dictator – need to be weighed on their own merit.
Thanks, but your example falls woefully short.
Selling advanced jet fighters like the F-15 to repressive dictatorships does nothing to prevent the rise of national opposition movements or future bin Ladens. But it is good business for large US aircraft manufacturers and it does allow Middle Eastern autocrats to threaten other autocrats and theocrats.
Ric,
Big sales of hi tech airplanes make the news. They are primarily tools for keffiyah+epaulet bedecked dictators to threaten other equally powerful actors in the region. However, do you think our arms manufacturers aren’t selling them the “little” stuff? The rounds of heavy ammunition, the guns, the replacement parts they need to cow, threaten or slaughter the little guys? Do they only get WP from Putin?
The personal contacts first forged in smaller deals provide the grease for these big ones we actually hear about from time to time. The constant abuse of power that goes along with U.S. branded firepower fuels the hatred for us that everyone likes to scratch their heads about.
That teargas used against Bahraini protestors had to be made somewhere…
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/37/Remains_of_US_made_tear_gas_canicters_in_Bahrain.JPG
The reality is that most of the countries in South America and Central America are stable democracies and Venezuela is one of the exceptions (along with Cuba). If we can bring back democracy in Venezuela that will bring them in line with the rest of Latin America. But in the middle east, almost all of the Arab Countries are like Saudi Arabia. At least Saudi Arabia is an ally.
Allies can be tyrants! That’s the american hypocrisy.
(from Brazil)
Saudi Arabia is an “ally” where the very wealthy elite assuage their shame over their upfront whoring for us by sending streams of money and moral support to men who kill us in our offices, our commercial airplanes and our embassies.
Half the anti-American political activity in these other middle eastern nations you mention is funded by Saudi, Emirati and Kuwaiti petrodollars.
With “allies” like the House of Saud (+the lesser petrosheiks)……….. who needs enemies?
You are really not that familiar with Latin America, right?
It’s a safe bet that you don’t know that in Colombia, last year, many demonstrators, peasants mostly, were killed. In that case, the perpetrators were known: The Colombian army. More recently, the Colombian government sacked the elected leftist mayor of Bogota, on some administrative pretext.
Yet, I haven’t heard anyone say Colombia is a dictatorship. If those 2 things occurred in Venezuela, they would be viewed as a reason for regime change. There’s clearly a double-standard at play, internationally.
When you say some countries are democratic, and others aren’t, what you really mean is that some are US allies and others aren’t. That’s how I assume it works; unless you can offer a consistent definition.
There are a number of countries in Latin America that are aligned with Venezuela: Nicaragua, Ecuador, Bolivia, Argentina. In addition, there are countries with similarly progressive governments: Brazil, Uruguay, and now Chile (back after they briefly tried a right-wing president.) There’s Peru, which elected a guy who sold himself as being left-progressive, but turned out to be a status quo guy. His popularity is in the low 30s I believe.
Ecuador is an interesting case: It enjoys good economic growth (probably second in Latin America), low unemployment (4.5%), the most popular president in the region, substantial reductions in poverty and inequality, etc. Before 2007, Ecuador was considered ungovernable. If Ecuador were a high priority to the US, I’m pretty sure they would do everything in their power to destabilize it, like Venezuela. (I do believe that the competence of specific governments matters as well, of course.)
couldn’t agree more.
I actually know a lot of people from Latin America and Columbia specifically, including a family member. I know it is not necessarily a panacea, but I would take Columbia any day over Venezuela. The point of the article is that we are hypocrites for supporting Saudi Arabia while protesting Venezuela. Glenn Greenwald might be right on that point, but my point is that we don’t have a lot of other options. We have very few friends in the Arab world so we shouldn’t be discarding the few that we have. I don’t really like the Saudi government, but they are better than the alternative, which is probably a Taliban-like state. At least Saudi Arabia is a pro US country.
The. Saudis. are. not. friends.
They hate your fucking guts. They think you are suckers. And you are.
I was gonna bring out the switch but I think you tanned his hide pretty good.
Thanks, Bill.
Given that all national governments are internally controlled by the International Banking Cartel there cannot be the illusion that the notion of “Democracy” exists in any national government.
Please consider this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OU9AGUv4lk (The International Banking Cartel (I) – Press TV.com)
Believe it or not, that’s not always true. Whether a non-compliant government can last is a different matter, evidently.
One could argue that on the surface, some national governments have made diligent and valiant efforts to extradite themselves from the grip of The International Banking Cartel of global dominion but yet they remain as ever on the playing board.
http://www.unglobalcompact.org/participants/search
I suspect that you did not take the time to view the link before proclaiming the data contained therein to be false.
Read this and learn. You won’t of course.
http://www.democracynow.org/2014/3/26/obama_to_visit_saudi_arabia_key
Heavy material. Bookmarked.
Commendations to Amy Goodman for cementing the tie between the US and the Saudi players in the fictional “War on Terror” and further establishing the link to 9-11.
“Al-Qa’ida’s Second Act: Why the Global ‘War on Terror’ Went Wrong.”
The telling point = US and Saudi players in the control grid of the International Banking Cartel.
Amy Goodman speaks to “False-Flag” joint ops.
Finally, the connection should be by great journalists in a consortium enterprise.
But….who has the balls?
Where do you ‘Person’ (clearly a troll) get off saying Venezuela is not a stable democracy? Now if you said, because of U.S. destabilization, I would perhaps give you a pass here, but that of course – when you lump Venezuela in with Cuba – is not why you made such a blanket, totally unsupportable statement. Lets look at the facts: Venezuela has had a long string of open, fair and legitimate elections in which a substantially higher percentage of the citizens turn out to vote than in the United States. Just a year ago a clear majority elected the present administration of President Muduro in an election that virtually all on the ground observers said was fair and legitimate (regardless of the statements to the contrary coming out of the Kerry State Dept.). The as recently as this past December the Venezuela had municipal elections that again, drew much higher levels of democratic participation from voters than occurs in the United States in virtually any of its elections. The only unstable thing about Venezuelan democracy is the recent US orchestrated support of far right wing demonstrators to try to destabilize the legitimately elected government because the right wing has been totally unable to win at the polls.
One thing that’s noteworthy about elections in Venezuela and some other countries in the world is that voters get to pick between options that are actually quite different. Compare to the US.
Democracy is supposed to be about rule by the people. But if your choices are pre-determined and narrow, do you really have that?
” – Do you think I’m a hypocrite? Well, you should. I wouldn’t disagree with you. The road to power is paved with hypocrisy… and casualties. Never Regret” – Francis Underwood (House of Cards).
Now look where Kevin Spacey interned in find inspiration for this show skip to 2:45. His quote at the end: “delusion runs deep… except for those who know they’re full of shit” Lol
I just thought this article reminded me of that.
Keep up the good work Glenn!
Forgot the link :http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/tdrg0n/kevin-spacey
Spacey also veils indirect support for the violent members of Venezuela’s opposition who intend to coup Maduro:
https://twitter.com/KevinSpacey/status/440273045400190976
what seems innocuous can often be veiled insidiousness.
Ven isn’t even a socialist country and it’s threatening to the capitalists.
I wonder if Omidyar’s NGOs will be involved in the coup.
I wonder if Omidyar’s NGOs will be involved in the coup.
Ah yes, Omidyar the Scourge of Ukraine.
http://s1133.photobucket.com/user/PresumptuousInsect/media/scourgeofukraine_zps55c17cb3.jpg.html
Gives one tingles just to fantasize about the next great scourging………
Don’t get me wrong… I like the fact that Glenn exposes the U.S. hypocrisy, but I don’t think Maduro’s regime is legitimate. I don’t agree with Oliver Stone, but I also don’t agree with Glenn’s choice of words at the end of this article saying “condemning other for expressing support for far more benign governments” There’s nothing benign in Maduro’s government. It may be considered “less worse” than the Sauds but they’re both bad! The protesters in Venezuela are not violent for the most part, and the repression from government is not proportionate at all
“The protesters in Venezuela are not violent for the most part”
And neither are the governments of Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, UAE…
Unless you have proof of election rigging, the Venezuelan government is just as legitimate as our own.
Well-said, you really have to wonder who is qualifying these governemnts as ‘not legitimate’? When PresYukanovich decided to protect his country form the predatory capitalists, they weooped down and ‘deligitimized’ him. Fast. And Crimea is correct in keeping it local. Like Ukraine wants to become Spain, Ireland, Portugal or Greece. And the US has a USD $ BILLION to aid Ukraine but cannot even take care of its homeless, have even healthcare throughout, repair its crumbling infrastructure now over eighty years old –who are we fooling here. Soon the IMF will be tightening the screws on the bankrupted Ukrainiens.
How do base your totally unsupportable statement that you don’t think Venezuelan President Muduro, having been elected president a year ago by a clear majority in an election in which nearly 70% of the citizens of Venezuela took part (a lot more than in the US!) and which not a single independent election observer said was anything except fair (completely contradicting the BS coming out of the Kerry State Dept.), and then having your party win municipal elections by a landslide as recently as this past December, is “illegitimate”? The protests (against what exactly?), having been instigated by the far right who could not gain legitimacy – speaking of legitimacy – through the ballot (and supported by the United States financially and through manipulation of currency exchange) have had their gun sights of the Bolivarian Reveolution in Venezuela from the get go (you obviously either no any recent Venezuelan history). The protesters were violent from the beginning – and certainly the reaction by the government has been no more repressive than that shown by the United States and it’s minions on the municipal police departments as they violently shut down the Occupy movement here. Making statements like “There’s nothing benign in Maduro’s government” paints you as a sycophantic tool of US media whitewash imperialism.
I’m going to guess that’s a supposition without basis. I haven’t been following what’s going in Venezuela every minute of every day, but I at least know that demonstrators have looted and burned universities, have decapitated motorcyclists by strewing wires across streets, are using Molotov bombs, etc.
Here’s how peaceful they are. What would a government such as Saudi Arabia’s do? Heck, what would the US government do?
It’s pretty easy to say “I think that government is illegitimate.” It could be said about any of them. What’s the objective and universally applicable criteria for deposing an elected government?
<>
Sometimes–oftentimes–a spade is indeed a spade.
A number of Mr. Greenwald’s publications on Russia-related topics makes
one wonder what were the perks meted out to him by Mr. Pu. Or was that Mr. Pu’s pecks?
And Oh Jesus H. Christ: so Barack H. Obama (or I guess it will be racist and Islaamophobic to put your prez’s middle initial?!) did not write his smashingly coool speeches himsaintlyself??
Editorial
What disturbs me most about these stories, and even about these times we are living in, is that they even need to be told.
We humans are much more capable than this. We are far more intellitent, and far more logical than what I see.
I was ostracized from participating in American culture by bullies as a child. Why? Because of the fact that I developed to my intellectual potential, and did so early on – having taught myself to read to a high school level in just the span of the first grade. So when second grade came around, I was far, far ahead of others, so the teacher put me in a corner of the classroom to do my own thing, necessitating revenge by the immature students who didn’t know any better because the ignorant teacher failed to help the students understand why I was being treated differently – because I had advanced beyond the need for the lesson plans because I was blessed with an accidental mechanism that somehow fostered my intellectual development early on (we are all the same folks, it is our development, our environment, that makes us different, that is all.)
That isolation was a gift. I was not burdened by American culture, and was thus not taught, at an early age, that knowledge comes from television, as Americans now subconsciously understand. If you doubt me, ask yourself what the first thing you do when you come home after hearing a rumor about something happening somewhere is? It is to turn on the television to find out what happened on the news. And that is the extent of American fact-finding anymore. To turn on the television, as if that is where the truth can be found.
What happened is that while I was isolated from American culture, American culture began a long, slow process of changing. My isolation, because I was not a participant, allows me the unique opportunity to see America from the outside while being on the inside.
A question I was asking myself when reading through the story and comments was, how do we know what comments, what stories to read; how should we determine if it is worth our time to read what is written. I mean, who has the facts, and who has a bunch of bullshit to tell? Who is telling the truth, who is just here to lie to us? Who knows what they are talking about and who is mistaken out of ignorance?
This is a question that shouldn’t even be asked. We humans have far more potential than this. I mentioned below in another comment that our society is destined to failure because our justice and political systems are completely at-odds with each other. We have the capability of understanding this. We DO understand this. It is in fact enshrined in a theory that is now documented publicly on Wikipedia: Kohlberg’s theories on moral development. We understand that a society which uses the form of justice system we use – which punishes bad behavior through a revenge scheme – is a society that cannot encourage independent thought and moral reasoning because the laws take the responsibilities away from people by codifying them, making it so people no longer have to understand how to behave; they only need to know the laws on how they can or cannot behave. And we understand that this will discourage development and advancement of moral reasoning to the perspective it needs to be – to include all members of society in one’s perspective, a necessity in a system where we each have responsibility for our own governance – the very definition of democracy.
And we also understand that a democracy cannot function if people are not capable of participating.
What I see with my outside-from-inside perspective, is a world that has fallen asleep, that has taken human knowledge for granted and which relies on convenience, on documentation, on codification and written law; instead of taking personal responsibility. I also see almost an entire species which relies on others for what they should not rely on, and fails to rely on others for what they should rely. I see, for example, people in Thailand and New Jersey and New Orleans and Christmas Islands and elsewhere who need international assistance to feed themselves when the systems put in place by industralized society fail due to natural disaster – which translates through simple deductive reasoning to realization that we have a form of society (industrialized) that has created an undue dependence upon itself for human survival. Take away that industrialized infrastructure, and the humans who have been born and raised within it cannot survive.
And why, what does this mean? There’s that question again… If humans cannot survive on their own without industrialized society, it means they are not human beings. Is this a sign that humanity has devolved? Are we patently incapable of taking care of ourselves without industrialized society?
Again, I am on the on the inside looking in as if from the outside. I am not part of American culture. And I am capable of surviving on my own without industrialized society. Why? Because I did not participate in American culture. And so are indigenous peoples the world over. Reliance on industrialized society then is folly, illogical, and just plain stupid when you really sit down and think about it.
And Americans especially do not do much of that. We aren’t taught to do so. I happened upon a valuable bit of knowledge quite accidently. I lived off-grid, and used a generator with a UPS battery pack for my power source. I used 5 gallons of gasoline per week to power things at the house. But it took 10 gallons of gasoline to drive the car over the hill to get the gas and supplies I needed, a trip that only lasted 4 hours, and not all of it was driving. My car required some 42 times the energy to operate as my house.
Money is an aspect of industrialized society that serves us the worst because it isolates us from our resources and shields us from having to understand the consequences of our decisions. What if we had to make the fuel to power our house and car? Of course we wouldn’t need the car to go get the fuel, but we would still have other reason for driving. Making fuel would entail distilling alcohol or making fuel oil. Both require a lot of work. So, you can do the same amount of work to live in your home for a week, or to drive for two hours…
How much driving are you going to do when your energies and resources require some 42 times more work to drive than to just live? How important is that trip? Now, you don’t consider the work involved because you have money to spend.
And nevermind the consequences. How many of us who use fuel are familiar with the process from start to finish?
The point is, industralized society is destined to fail because it separates humans from nature. We are an integral part of nature and cannot separate ourselves unless we also isolate ourselves. Do what we humans are doing in a spaceship and see how long it would go on.
But we have a huge dilemma here. Society has devolved so much that humanity has not been able to develop sufficiently to be able to seek the truth for themselves. So people like me who have must try to teach people. But we have to compete with ignorant but well meaning people, ignorant and not-so-well meaning people, and not-so-ignorant and definitely not-so-well-meaning people who are all vying for your attention, vying to teach you “the truth.” Their truth.
The best I personally can hope to do is point out what I have come to understand in the hopes that others will be inspired by the logic to seek understanding themselves. I think what might help is if you were to understand that this isn’t about being the first to be the one to discover the truth. That’s a burden, not a blessing, trust me. No, the idea here is not to do this to impress others, the idea is to impress yourself.
The flaw in logic there on the part of humanity, especially in America, is that we defer to the OPINIONS of others. We look to what other people tell us their reaction is to judge our behavior. But we are all ignorant, even of our own selves, our own nature, and thus are incapable of understanding how what someone does affects us. And because our system has caused us to rely on ego, we become more concerned with impressing others with our abilities than with truth. So we don’t provide feedback as to how things affect us, only how we think others would think. There is of course, no deference to an outside referenant; there is only popular opinion; which is fleeting, dynamic, and always, always inaccurate. What we should be doing instead of seeking the opinion of others about our decisions, is to make our decisions based on how what we do actually affects others. The trouble with that is that it requires work on our part.
I highly encourage each of you to turn off your television and all other aspects of American culture (and European, Russian, Chinese, and other cultures) and ponder things from within your own perspective. You are a human being, equal to all others. You are as important as anyone else out there, including Obama, the Pope, the Dalai Lama, or anyone else. Your opinion on these matters is equally valuable to everyone else’s. And the fact is actually that your opinion, as a citizen, is far more important than that of any politician or other figure of “authority” or power because they are not what matters, we are. So what you think about this world, how it is, and more importantly how it should be, is equally valuable as everyone elses’ opinions. Our leaders have proven that they do not concern themselves with our needs, so your opinion is far, far more valuable about your own fate than theirs. In fact, they have demonstrated they are incapable of providing for us all equally, and therefore have proven they are incapable of leading because they do not lead us all, and therefore there opinions are less than worthless.
Thank you.
Your breathtaking lack of self-awareness should not go unremarked.
I would like to suggest that your apparent high maintenance need for audience might be best served if you got your own blog rather than appropriating space in Glenn’s comments section as a proxy.
If only he had an avi, bystander. It would make it so much easier to scroll past him.
Are you observing a lack of self awareness, or are you observing a lack of ego?
1,741 words, 21 paragraphs, more than 3 pages of single spaced text pasted into a typical document application with standard margins, coupled with the self-referential,
And, you want me to consider a lack of ego?
Srsly? Uh, no.
And all of two or three whole seconds to get past on this web page, using the almighty power of the mouse-wheel.
Another thought for TallyHoGazehound’s commune:
My guess, and I hope I’m right, is that you wouldn’t – not because you’re cowardly, but simply because it would be immature & childish – in other words, it would be the wrong thing to do.
As for me, I have had, and still do not have, any problem speaking up in a public place when I see someone like you folks making these childish, self-serving and immature comments – because that’s the right thing to do.
The internet can be a great place for courteous, informed and considered discussions, but it can also be the skirts that people like you, Lyra1, et al. hide behind when it comes to saying things you wouldn’t, and shouldn’t otherwise say to someone’s face.
That you all appear to be so un-empathetic to be able understand this concept is apparent – but maybe you’ll understand some day. Until then, another quote for your consideration:
“The more mature a soul, the less it blames others.”
– Toba Beta, Master of Stupidity
Best regards, Sillyputty
It did take me a while to get past the emotions stirred up by your reply, given that you failed to consider the consequences of your words on myself and others who come to this site to be informed and inspired, and the fact that you have in a very small, but very real way, diminished the chances of humanity getting past its problems by interfering with the democratic process (discussing our problems with each other is part of the democractic process – now might be a good time to remind yourself of this and other facts by revisiting the theories of Democracy as written by Greek philosophers a few thousand years ago.
It’s striking to me that you would go to the trouble of copying and pasting my writing into Microsoft word and click on the metrics to report back to me and illustrate for others your argument that I…well actually, you made no assertion, so I have no idea why you pointed that out other than to mimick the techniques used by pundits to trick you into believing their lies (it’s a little something call propaganda, and now might be an opportune time to do some research, particularly on PsyOps and what happened to all of the people who worked on the program in World War II in America…hint: it’s all in Wikipedia for you to find.)
What you are meaning to point out is what perceive of as arrogance. Your initial comment actually pointed out, for those few observers in the world who would be aware, symptoms of my being at universal ethics in my perspective here (I’ve already admitted I cannot always reason at universal ethics, in part because of brain damage, also in part because it results in violations of law at times and thus I must blindly follow immoral laws to survive.) When one reasons at universal ethics, one does not consider oneself as separate from others. So you would not sense, in the writings of one writing from the universal perspective, any individuality, because it is absent.
And you observed a “lack of self awareness” in an editorial that I wrote which included aspects of my own life, descriptions of my own past. Your mind is aware of what universal ethics is because it is in your potential to reason at universal ethics. That is what I meant when I referred to having achieved my intellectual potential – potential is what we are ultimately capable of if we fully develop those capabilities. Everyone on earth can be smarter than Einstein. Everyone on earth can be stronger than the strongest athelete. Everyone on earth has the potential to bike faster than Lance Armstrong.
Potential is what makes us equal. Failure to achieve it is what makes us different from each other, unequal. And we are being opressed, and more accurately, surpressed, from achieving our potential by powers who believe themselves elite, better than us. And what differentiates these people is that they don’t even reason morally – they have not even begun to start achieving their potential in moral reasoning, and thus cannot possibly be superior human beings. How can someone be superior who has not achieved potential?
And this is where you get confused. You assume that my language, my skills, my expertise, knowledge, and understanding which I convey in my writings is a threat, because our rulers, those who have not achieved their moral potential and are in positions of power over us, use such abilities in a form of violence agains us, to surpress and oppress us. The net effect is that when someone comes along who has achieved his potentialy intellectually and morally, that you, naturally, assume he is holding his superiority over you.
I hope you understand that I am not superior to you as a human being. I have superior intellectual capabilites, at least I assume so (99.28% chance of being right, so I’m safe there) but only because I achieved more of my potential. You had every potential to be at least as intelligent. And the fact is, I am not at my full intellectual potential. I feel much of my life was wasted given what I’ve discovered after having suffered a loss to those abilities through brain damage 10 years ago and through the therapies I have undergone to restore some of those abilities. So the fact is, you had every potential, just as everyone else did, to be far more intelligent than even I am.
We don’t just automatically achieve our potential. We have to work at it. And that is why I am not beyond writing thousands of words to get a message across. I have something to say, and I have found a forum that is welcomining, and which can afford me the opportunity to present my understanding to others so that it can be debated, so that I can hone and perfect my theories, my thoughts on the causes of humanity’s strife.
This website has no terms of service published for use of the comments section. The section has no rules because, I believe, or rather I hope, that the publishers wanted to provide a democratic forum for people to express themselves and even discuss these stories, for they are the most profound bit of news writing, and reading, in the history of news in my humble opinion. I believe in the democratic process, and with my understanding of what has gone wrong to subvert it, I use appropriate and measured methodologies in utilizing this resource for it’s ideal – potential – use, the democratic process, in an ongoing, continuous, and passionate effort to help fix this fucked up mess of a world that a bunch of inhuman f*ing zombies have created.
Please redirect your passions, Please refrain from holding myself and other people accountable to the rules and other nonsense of our rulers and please redirect those efforts at holding our elected representatives and public servants accountable.
Thank you.
@Mike Wolf: You State – “The [comments] section has no rules because, I believe, or rather I hope, that the publishers wanted to provide a democratic forum for people to express themselves”
Are you implying that democracy = a space with no rules?
I think that is a trivialization of democracy. Also, isn’t the democratic process about creating laws? Are all laws arbitrary? Are all laws restrictive or prohibitive? Would you say that there are both laws that restrict (stop signs) and extend (Civil Rights) rights? Are all laws that restrict actions (stop signs) anti-democratic in application? Are there not some laws that also expand (Voting Rights) democracy in application?
I disagree that democracy = a space with no rules.. in fact these spaces never exist, and the further you get away from litigating the closer you get to rule by force. Isn’t that what The Intercept is all about? Protecting citizens from governmental abuses? If we restrict the reach of the NSA does that become anti-democratic for spies who are being denied the right to spy? If a group of spies took to the streets to protest their inherent god given right to spy would you consider this a legitimate protest for democratic rights?
Given your incredible wisdom I look forward to your response.
@tally:
he still makes some valid points. his last paragraph is particularly noteworthy.
I could post War and Peace, there are some “valid points” in it too. It’s rude and inconsiderate. Not to mention a concision failure.
To Bill Owen – re: Having to use a scroll-wheel…
Yes, you’re comment is – as well as unnecessary.
And you get the rest because you agree with the rest:
Yes, if you consider childish derision and mockery to be the desired end result of your discussion.
True, hence the rejection of the childish and derisive mockery uttered by Tallyho, Kitt, Mona, and Lyra1, and Bill Owen.
Kitt, you’re projecting (look it up) – The reason for the comment is explained above.
Nobody who posts here should be subject to juvenile comments that have nothing to do with the comment itself – and everything to do with trying to mock, deride, or disparage someone simply because they don’t have the energy and wherewithal to scroll past a post they do not want to read.
The fact that you think I come to the defense of Mike because he’s Mike (whatever that means) is just more childish projection on your part. I could care less. I come here for the messages, not the messengers.
What I do care about, however, is that no one gets shut down for just for speaking out.
The fact that supposedly forward thinking adults on here (thankfully, only a few so far) can’t figure that out;, and instead continue to try to kill the messenger of any message they disagree with, rather than gathering up the intellectual balls to argue the merits of what someone is saying is not only childish and immature – it’s pathetic.
To those that think it’s OK to do this, I say: Grow the hell up. It’s not.
“The only valid censorship of ideas is the right of people not to listen.
– Tommy Smothers
Regards, Sillyputty
You’re a condescending, self righteous blowhard. And, no, I’m not projecting this time either, I’m telling you what I’ve concluded about the person I’m replying to based on the writings from the person I’m replying to. Not complicated. No need to try hard to decipher the meaning. The meaning should slap you upside the head, if not for the personality traits mentioned that cause your blindness to your own obnoxiousness.
@silly putty Are you capable of recognizing the irony and hypocrisy of your condemning someone’s post for condemning someone’s post?
Hello Bill Owen –
Same article: Thread 2 – https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/03/28/us-takes-break-condemning-tyranny-celebrate-obamas-visit-saudi-arabia/#comment-17487
Targeted disruptive psyops expanded to include Bill Owen.
See: “Tallyho, Kitt, Mona, and Lyra1, and Bill Owen. ”
Five dissenting
??? Possible failure to recognize presumptuousinsect.
Noted.
Hello Bill Owen –
To be perfectly clear, what I am “continuing to do here” is called “censuring.”
Censuring is not saying that someone cannot say something, but that they should not say it.
I then provide the specific reasons why they should not say it – and in every case that I have said it, it is because I feel that no one has the right to deride, ridicule, and childishly mock others based on nothing more than the fact that they posted something on here that they can’t be bothered to not be bothered with.
This is very different from “censoring,” which is when others on here are saying – using derision, ridicule and mocking – that someone cannot say anything at all.
In the end, we all have the freedom to criticize (censure) , but no poster on here has the right to censor – which is exactly what too many on here are trying to do.
“The test of democracy is freedom of criticism.”
~David Ben-Gurion
Yes, but those are not your words or thoughts, are they, Bill Owen?
To equate someone posting their own words to that of plagiarizing another’s words in order to make the point that it makes sense to deride, chide, mock, disparage, ridicule, scorn or otherwise attempt to get someone to stop speaking, especially on an internet site where it takes, literally, only seconds to navigate past any post you don’t want to read is really childish and disrespectful…and lazy too.
” When I am getting ready to reason with a man, I spend one-third of my time thinking about myself and what I am going to say and two-thirds about him and what he is going to say.”
~ Abraham Lincoln
They desperately want their own blog, Bill. You know, Lampreys. :)
They swim up, attach their toothy heads to Glenn and then eat the crumbs and hope to BecomeGlenn® through osmosis or some shit.
I’m tired of the ‘War&Peace’ diatribes to.
Yes, especially this part…”Please redirect your passions,..”
Passions…meet mousewheel.
“The flaw in logic there on the part of humanity, especially in America, is that we defer to the OPINIONS of others. […] What we should be doing instead of seeking the opinion of others about our decisions, is to make our decisions based on how what we do actually affects others. The trouble with that is that it requires work on our part.”
The successful maintenance of one’s “moral integrity” does not merely rely on good intentions, but on assuring outcomes that further allow for the natural evolution of ones moral faculties. Does this comport with you view mike?
Could you please restate your question, and in doing so please also reframe it as a non-leading question.
The framing of your question is, whether intentional or not, accusatory. It presents to the mind of the reader the notion that I hold myself as some form of authority. I do not. My understanding of moral reasoning, universal ethics, and my particular moral reasoning is incomplete. I cannot therefore be an authority.
The most logical reason I can find for this confusion is once again the fault of our rulers and the propaganda they use. I just watched a rather pathetic documentary, “Ethos” which did include some new information (it’s basically a reproduction of the Zeitgeist series, with blatant ripoffs and all) that was not in the Zeitgeist films. In it they brought up someone I hadn’t been aware of, and yet another connection was completed. Bernays, the father of modern propaganda for all intents and purposes, taught our rulers that by presenting themselves as authority, we would perceive them as such.
I certainly did not make any efforts to present myself as an authority. I firmly believe that what you perceived, even if only subconsciously, was that I was being authoritative. But I stated at the top of the comment that it was editorial. I believed that would be sufficient to quell any accusations of arrogance or authority, as I had no intent either way.
I would like to address your question, but I cannot in its present form. From what I can understand so far, it seems that you are arguing or assuming that moral reasoning is solely about intention. It is not and cannot be. My apologies that I did not elaborate on something that I should have recognized was potentially confusing. Brain damage strikes again.
If that is the case, then I will explain it this way, as I do in a couple of my videos on my show. It is not enough to have good intentions. If you are given two buttons, and told that one nukes the world, the other saves it, and you are told that that the one on your right is the one that saves the world, is it enough to have good intentions? Is it enough to agree with whomever says the button saves the world. And let’s go even further…what if the entire world thought the same thing, that the button on the right saves the world.
But you know, because you did your research, that the button on the right nukes the world (you followed the wires, everyone else read the diagram, which was printed by Diebold). Which button do you press?
As an added editorial comment, I certainly feel like I’m poised to press that button and have everyone in the world looking at me, eyes glaring, teeth gnashed, and guns cocked and ready.
Please let me know if that answered your question.
Hi Mike, thank you for your thoughtful response.
“Could you please restate your question, and in doing so please also reframe it as a non-leading question.”
I was simply attempting to glean the essence of that which you were attempting to convey, in part. It is for this reason that I penned my response in the form of a question. I was not attempting to put words into your mouth, nor was I attempting to infer that you were assuming an authoritative posture.
“I certainly feel like I’m poised to press that button and have everyone in the world looking at me, eyes glaring, teeth gnashed, and guns cocked and ready.”
I have had very similar feelings at certain times in my life – when the walls seemed to be closing in on me and everyone seemed intent on negatively interpreting my intentions and/or actions. Have you ever felt like people are trying to put you into a box via the imposition of limited expectation? When I feel this way, I think about people like Buddha, Christ, Galileo, Plato, Lao Tzu … well, I am certain that you how men such as these suffer for their humanity. I believe that, when approached with the right attitude, the views of these exemplary beings speak to an undying hope for humankind.
I have just reread “Siddhartha” by Herman Hesse and I am about to begin “the Last Temptation” by Nikos Kazantzakis. “Siddhartha” reminds me that we are each destined to walk an uncharted path in pursuit of an understanding of that which truly makes us human. It appears that loneliness is the price that a hero must bare as he braves the limits of his own psyche.
Take heart Mike. I wish you a hope filled journey.
If I might offer an alternative to books:
Consider that you might be ready to branch off and begin to ponder things on your own. What you are doing when you are reading philosophy (save for logic of course), is experiencing someone else’s opinion of original ideas.
One reason that it’s some of the horrible experiences in my life are beneficial is that they caused me to distrust people – to not take what I was told for granted. But I took it to the extreme and decided not to take ANYTHING for granted. I deprived myself of almost all influence. I read some of Sagan, recently, and what we all get in high school – though I got 1984 and Alas Balyon and others rather than Animal Farm. But the greatest influences in my life then and now have always been text books, scientific papers, and just plain thinking about things.
It’s far easier than you would ever dream to learn a broad range of topics. I learned enough about sociology to better understand humanity by reading a single textbook in a summer, which I did while living in a camper in the woods, which did me a lot of good to help my thinking and writing by the way – “Homeless Summer” was one result, and is on my journalistic page in fact.
While it may seem appealing to read various philosophies, it is far too easy to fall into the trap of just shopping for a philosophy to adopt. The whole point of life in that regard is to adopt your own. And my point is that it is not at all difficult to learn the broad range of knowledge you need to develop your own philosophy. Go live in a camper in the woods, metaphorically speaking, and spend time at the library looking through mankind’s knowledge, rather than his philosophies.
Anyway, its just an idea.
By the way, since it’s buried down here, I’ll give you this much, I don’t believe the Buddha achieved true enlightenment. True enlightenment can only occur if it occurs across humanity almost universally, because of the fact that we are all interconnected. That’s my goal. Wish me luck huh?
Thanks for your response Mike. Spending time alone with ones own thoughts is always good advice. Have you ever attempted to use your self imposed solitude to learn how to still your mind? I have found that quietude can be a great teacher when one is single mindedly committed to the goal of being brutally honest with ones self.
“While it may seem appealing to read various philosophies, it is far too easy to fall into the trap of just shopping for a philosophy to adopt.”
I couldn’t agree more. Attempting to encapsulate the totality of reality into an intellectual construct is akin to using a bucket to empty the entire ocean into a freshly dug hole along the ocean’s edge; it is a fools’s errand. This having been said, I have found that the truths espoused by certain luminaries not only have the innate capacity to resonate deeply within my being, but provide the necessary language by which I have become better able to relate my modest insights to others. Has this been your experience as well?
“By the way, since it’s buried down here, I’ll give you this much, I don’t believe the Buddha achieved true enlightenment. True enlightenment can only occur if it occurs across humanity almost universally, because of the fact that we are all interconnected. That’s my goal. Wish me luck huh?”
Are you familiar with the concept of Samadhi Mike? It is a non-dualistic state of consciousness in which the observer ceases to suffer from the illusion of separation from the totality of all that is; it is akin to a droplet of water returning to the sea. The Buddha taught that it is necessary to still ones mind in order to achieve liberation from the illusory effects of dualistic consciousness (thinking of oneself as separate from the greater whole). Those who have successfully applied the Buddha’s teachings speak of a boundless Love of which all being is comprised, and from which all being comes into existence. They also teach that the pain of life provides the impetus for re-emersion of self into the greater whole. If this is the case, then it would appear that you are well along the path already.
Let me just answer you this way:
I consider reading such philosophies, and subscribing to others’ teachings philosophies and any teaching which does not simply relate fact, inspire, or teach critical thinking as cheating. And it is the most profound form of cheating, because the idea, in my mind, is to come to understand the universe on your own.
I don’t want to understand what the Buddha thought about the Universe. Nor do I want to understand what the teachings attributed to “Jesus Christ” tell me about human behavior.
My being ostracized was a blessing. Being isolated and taught to mistrust all humans, I have come to understand the world around me through my own observations. I am a true scientist. I don’t take anything for granted when it really comes down to it, most especially not when it comes to human knowledge. I have reinvented every aspect of human knowledge I could get my hands on – verifying, for myself, everthing that I could.
I flat refuse to accept the teachings of anyone who believes they can understand how my mind works and how to improve it. As for “quieting my mind” that is a threat to my very existence and purpose. I embrace my racing thoughts and anxiety for the benefits they have provided me, especially in the insight to make the discoveries I have made.
“I flat refuse to accept the teachings of anyone who believes they can understand how my mind works and how to improve it. As for “quieting my mind” that is a threat to my very existence and purpose. I embrace my racing thoughts and anxiety for the benefits they have provided me, especially in the insight to make the discoveries I have made.”
I understand your distrust of outside influences Mike. You have a sovereign right to determine you own fate; I respect that. We are, by birth, social beings Mike. If you ever feel the need to talk, please feel free to engage me at will.
Kindest regards,
Wilhelmina
To TallyHoGazehound –
“Your comment is childish, immature, and unnecessary. That you think condescension equals rebuttal, and that opinions carry equal weight simply because they are opinions and because everyone has a right to have one epitomizes your lazy thinking.”
Why not try instead to keep your self-serving derision to yourself, and put forth that extra super-human effort that it must require for you to make a just few extra few rolls of the mouse wheel to get where want?
” There are all kinds of stupid people that annoy me but what annoys me most is a lazy argument.”
~ Christopher Hitchens
Best regards, Sillyputty
TallyHo’s comment was spot in.
This is a political blog, not a forum for psychotherapy. The comment section is not for working out one’s psychological and mental health issues.
There are sites where that is appropriate.
This is simply not one of them.
Precisely.
Hey sillyputty, why don’t knock it off with your “childish, immature and unnecessary” spamming?
Worst regards, Kitt
sillyputty is Mike Wolf’s, shall we say, alter ego? He often comes to Mike’s defense from we “bullies” who don’t wish to see the comments section abused for inappropriate purposes. He gives Mike kudos for his efforts.
They should take their act on the big Internet road.
Yup.
Also speculating regarding other “Multiple Personality” pseudo persona’s that this individual is running in the psychological corridors of DARPA ops.
To Tallyho, Mona, Kitt, & Lyra1
Yes, if you consider childish derision and mockery to be the desired end result of your discussion.
True, hence the rejection of the childish and derisive mockery uttered by Tallyho, Kitt, Mona, and Lyra1.
Kitt, you’re projecting (look it up) – The reason for the comment is explained above.
Nobody who posts here should be subject to juvenile comments that have nothing to do with the comment itself – and everything to do with trying to mock, deride, or disparage someone simply because they don’t have the energy and wherewithal to scroll past a post they do not want to read.
The fact that you think I come to the defense of Mike because he’s Mike (whatever that means) is just more childish projection on your part. I could care less. I come here for the messages, not the messengers.
What I do care about, however, is that no one gets shut down for just for speaking out.
The fact that supposedly forward thinking adults on here (thankfully, only a few so far) can’t figure that out;, and instead continue to try to kill the messenger of any message they disagree with, rather than gathering up the intellectual balls to argue the merits of what someone is saying is not only childish and immature – it’s pathetic.
To those that think it’s OK to do this, I say: Grow the hell up. It’s not.
“The only valid censorship of ideas is the right of people not to listen.
– Tommy Smothers
Regards, Sillyputty
The quote is lovely, but applies only if one inserts the word “government” in front of censorship.
For you see, you do not have the right to stand in my living room and declaim on the vileness of homosexuals. Why, I would “censor” your ass right out my front door.
Similarly, this comment section is privately owned space dedicated to politics. The commenters who come here for political discussion — the purpose of this comments section — are entitled to loudly object to hijacking the space for irrelevant purposes.
The proprietor, Mr. Greenwald, is also entitled to disallow such hijacking should he see fit to do so. He’s done so before, to the general approval of the commentariat.
Never based on viewpoint, but for polluting the discussion with irrelevance and distraction.
I second Mona’s motion and hereby say Mike Wolf, SillyPutty etc… are guilty of all charges! Case dismissed.
I also hereby call upon the staff at The Intercept to intercept the perp and kick him off the board.
Finally, I thank Mona for making me aware of the word “commentariat” that I can utilize in my vast repertoire of neologisms. Thank you, indeed!
I hereby announce a bathroom break. 15 minutes, and don’t forget to flush!
Bullshit. For several reasons:
First, You are conflating one example of where you can legitimately exert a right to not be subject to what you don’t want to hear (in your home, which is valid) with the idea that you have the right to deride, ridicule, and childishly mock others based on nothing more than the fact that they posted something on here that you can’t be bothered to not be bothered with.
Secondly, the right to censor here or to regulate the length of any post regardless of content is not up to you or me, but to this sites owner. Something that they will probably get around to eventually.
Lastly, the quote specifically notes that people have the right to listen, but not to censor – and the point remains that the censoring you are attempting using derision is even more troubling and immature – because it is done without any regard whatsoever to what someone has said, but merely because of the number of words they used when saying it.
So please, try and be more mature about it – and do whatever it takes for you to find the energy, fortitude and wherewithal to scroll past a post that you do not want to read.
“We can never be sure that the opinion we are endeavoring to stifle is a false opinion; and if we were sure, stifling it would be an evil still.”
~ John Stuart Mill, On Liberty, 1859
Secondly, the right to censor here or to regulate the length of any post regardless of content is not up to you or me, but to this sites owner. – SP
So why do you keep doing this?
To Bill Owen, et al. –
To be perfectly clear, what I am “continuing to do here” is called “censuring.”
Censuring is not saying that someone cannot say something, but that they should not say it.
Specific reasons are stated as to why they should not say it – and in every case that I have said it, it is because I feel that no one has the right to deride, ridicule, and childishly mock others based on nothing more than the fact that they posted something on here that they can’t be bothered to not be bothered with.
This is very different from “censoring,” which is when others on here are saying – using derision, ridicule and mocking – that someone cannot say anything at all.
In the end, we all have the freedom to criticize (censure), but no poster on here has the right to censor – which is exactly what too many on here are trying to do.
“The test of democracy is freedom of criticism.”
~David Ben-Gurion
Hi Sillyputty I am in your head
AHAHAahahahaHAHAHAhahahHAHAhahahahahaha
MOUUUUU AHAHAHAHAhahahahahahahaahah
Paranoia great destroya :P
“Sillyputty
28 Mar 2014 at 4:56 pm
To Tallyho, Mona, Kitt, & Lyra1″
Four people objecting to the insertion of disrupting DARPA psyop maneuvers in a political commentary forum on one of a multitude of such disruptive threads.
Noted.
Insert:
Lyra1
28 Mar 2014 at 7:01 pm
Same article: Thread 2 – https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/03/28/us-takes-break-condemning-tyranny-celebrate-obamas-visit-saudi-arabia/#comment-17487
Targeted disruptive psyops expanded to include Bill Owen.
See: “Tallyho, Kitt, Mona, and Lyra1, and Bill Owen. ”
Five dissenting
??? Possible failure to recognize presumptuousinsect.
Noted.
ADD: amico humani generis
6 Dissenting
“This is a political blog, not a forum for psychotherapy. The comment section is not for working out one’s psychological and mental health issues.”
@Tallyho, Kitt, Mona, and Lyra1, and Bill Owen
Is your problem with Mike merely the fact that he posted an excessively long, off-topic comment? Really?
How many of you have regularly engaged in off-topic discussions throughout years? We all know the answer to that, don’t we?
Now that we have dispensed with the specious concern for off topic commentary, let’s focus on the amount of cyber space that is consumed per thread by each one of you. Although it is true that most of you are fairly concise in your individual comments, you are all prolific posters. If one were to venture guess as to how many characters per thread the least of you consume on the average, it would far exceed the length of Mike’s comment.
Now that we have dispensed with tall pretensions concerning the waste of space, let’s address the fact that there is a pack mentality here that is absolutely disturbing. Does it really take five members of the hive to dispense with the concerns of an utterly humane defense of Mike Wolf? Look at the amount of truly ugly ill will that has been collectively displayed in the effort to silence a single individual whose only sin was to come to the kind defense of an admittedly troubled individual.
How many of you have used these blood thirsty tactics against one of your own for engaging in off topic discussions? You all ought to be ashamed! Where is your humanity?
Wilhelmina, not to discount the rest of your post, which, unsurprisingly, I happen to agree wholeheartedly with, this particular paradigm probably disturbs me the most.
That what I assume to be adults on here would so quickly descend into a “Lord of the Flies” mentality is a trend that needs to be discouraged repeatedly and strongly, whenever and wherever it is seen, by all of us.
“Humankind seems to have an enormous capacity for savagery, for brutality, for lack of empathy, for lack of compassion.”
Annie Lennox
Best regards, Sillyputty
Textbook set ’em up, knock ’em down!
“We all know…don’t we?
Now that we have…let’s focus
Now that we have dispensed
You all ought to be ashamed! Where is your humanity?”–Wilhelmina talking to herself.
@Kitt
I suspected that you would be first to respond as you have made it explicitly clear that you have no concern for the feelings of others. You do Glenn Greenwald a great service in aiding the defense of his reputation.
@SillyPutty
I once heard it said that “liberals are so busy demonstrating that they love everybody that they do not have time to love anybody.”
“Love is the absence of judgment.”
? Dalai Lama XIV
“My religion is very simple. My religion is kindness.”
? Dalai Lama XIV
You are a very unserious person.Colombia wants you.Go now.We used to have a lot of friends among the Muslims until Israel came along.Funny dat.And believe it or not,the Taliban wish to retain their civilization,(subject to debate,of course)and when in Rome,do as the Romans do,an unwanted thought among the monsters.
tl;dr
Exactly.
BOOK ONE: 1805
CHAPTER I
“Well, Prince, so Genoa and Lucca are now just family estates of the Buonapartes. But I warn you, if you don’t tell me that this means war, if you still try to defend the infamies and horrors perpetrated by that Antichrist—I really believe he is Antichrist—I will have nothing more to do with you and you are no longer my friend, no longer my ‘faithful slave,’ as you call yourself! But how do you do? I see I have frightened you—sit down and tell me all the news.”
It was in July, 1805, and the speaker was the well-known Anna Pavlovna Scherer, maid of honor and favorite of the Empress Marya Fedorovna. With these words she greeted Prince Vasili Kuragin, a man of high rank and importance, who was the first to arrive at her reception. Anna Pavlovna had had a cough for some days. She was, as she said, suffering from la grippe; grippe being then a new word in St. Petersburg, used only by the elite.
All her invitations without exception, written in French, and delivered by a scarlet-liveried footman that morning, ran as follows:
“If you have nothing better to do, Count (or Prince), and if the prospect of spending an evening with a poor invalid is not too terrible, I shall be very charmed to see you tonight between 7 and 10—Annette Scherer.”
“Heavens! what a virulent attack!” replied the prince, not in the least disconcerted by this reception. He had just entered, wearing an embroidered court uniform, knee breeches, and shoes, and had stars on his breast and a serene expression on his flat face. He spoke in that refined French in which our grandfathers not only spoke but thought, and with the gentle, patronizing intonation natural to a man of importance who had grown old in society and at court. He went up to Anna Pavlovna, kissed her hand, presenting to her his bald, scented, and shining head, and complacently seated himself on the sofa.
“First of all, dear friend, tell me how you are. Set your friend’s mind at rest,” said he without altering his tone, beneath the politeness and affected sympathy of which indifference and even irony could be discerned.
“Can one be well while suffering morally? Can one be calm in times like these if one has any feeling?” said Anna Pavlovna. “You are staying the whole evening, I hope?”
“And the fete at the English ambassador’s? Today is Wednesday. I must put in an appearance there,” said the prince. “My daughter is coming for me to take me there.”
“I thought today’s fete had been canceled. I confess all these festivities and fireworks are becoming wearisome.”
“If they had known that you wished it, the entertainment would have been put off,” said the prince, who, like a wound-up clock, by force of habit said things he did not even wish to be believed.
“Don’t tease! Well, and what has been decided about Novosiltsev’s dispatch? You know everything.”
“What can one say about it?” replied the prince in a cold, listless tone. “What has been decided? They have decided that Buonaparte has burnt his boats, and I believe that we are ready to burn ours.”
Prince Vasili always spoke languidly, like an actor repeating a stale part. Anna Pavlovna Scherer on the contrary, despite her forty years, overflowed with animation and impulsiveness. To be an enthusiast had become her social vocation and, sometimes even when she did not feel like it, she became enthusiastic in order not to disappoint the expectations of those who knew her. The subdued smile which, though it did not suit her faded features, always played round her lips expressed, as in a spoiled child, a continual consciousness of her charming defect, which she neither wished, nor could, nor considered it necessary, to correct.
In the midst of a conversation on political matters Anna Pavlovna burst out:
“Oh, don’t speak to me of Austria. Perhaps I don’t understand things, but Austria never has wished, and does not wish, for war. She is betraying us! Russia alone must save Europe. Our gracious sovereign recognizes his high vocation and will be true to it. That is the one thing I have faith in! Our good and wonderful sovereign has to perform the noblest role on earth, and he is so virtuous and noble that God will not forsake him. He will fulfill his vocation and crush the hydra of revolution, which has become more terrible than ever in the person of this murderer and villain! We alone must avenge the blood of the just one…. Whom, I ask you, can we rely on?… England with her commercial spirit will not and cannot understand the Emperor Alexander’s loftiness of soul. She has refused to evacuate Malta. She wanted to find, and still seeks, some secret motive in our actions. What answer did Novosiltsev get? None. The English have not understood and cannot understand the self-abnegation of our Emperor who wants nothing for himself, but only desires the good of mankind. And what have they promised? Nothing! And what little they have promised they will not perform! Prussia has always declared that Buonaparte is invincible, and that all Europe is powerless before him…. And I don’t believe a word that Hardenburg says, or Haugwitz either. This famous Prussian neutrality is just a trap. I have faith only in God and the lofty destiny of our adored monarch. He will save Europe!”
She suddenly paused, smiling at her own impetuosity.
“I think,” said the prince with a smile, “that if you had been sent instead of our dear Wintzingerode you would have captured the King of Prussia’s consent by assault. You are so eloquent. Will you give me a cup of tea?”
“In a moment. A propos,” she added, becoming calm again, “I am expecting two very interesting men tonight, le Vicomte de Mortemart, who is connected with the Montmorencys through the Rohans, one of the best French families. He is one of the genuine emigres, the good ones. And also the Abbe Morio. Do you know that profound thinker? He has been received by the Emperor. Had you heard?”
“I shall be delighted to meet them,” said the prince. “But tell me,” he added with studied carelessness as if it had only just occurred to him, though the question he was about to ask was the chief motive of his visit, “is it true that the Dowager Empress wants Baron Funke to be appointed first secretary at Vienna? The baron by all accounts is a poor creature.”
Prince Vasili wished to obtain this post for his son, but others were trying through the Dowager Empress Marya Fedorovna to secure it for the baron.
Anna Pavlovna almost closed her eyes to indicate that neither she nor anyone else had a right to criticize what the Empress desired or was pleased with.
“Baron Funke has been recommended to the Dowager Empress by her sister,” was all she said, in a dry and mournful tone.
As she named the Empress, Anna Pavlovna’s face suddenly assumed an expression of profound and sincere devotion and respect mingled with sadness, and this occurred every time she mentioned her illustrious patroness. She added that Her Majesty had deigned to show Baron Funke beaucoup d’estime, and again her face clouded over with sadness.
The prince was silent and looked indifferent. But, with the womanly and courtierlike quickness and tact habitual to her, Anna Pavlovna wished both to rebuke him (for daring to speak as he had done of a man recommended to the Empress) and at the same time to console him, so she said:
“Now about your family. Do you know that since your daughter came out everyone has been enraptured by her? They say she is amazingly beautiful.”
The prince bowed to signify his respect and gratitude.
“I often think,” she continued after a short pause, drawing nearer to the prince and smiling amiably at him as if to show that political and social topics were ended and the time had come for intimate conversation—”I often think how unfairly sometimes the joys of life are distributed. Why has fate given you two such splendid children? I don’t speak of Anatole, your youngest. I don’t like him,” she added in a tone admitting of no rejoinder and raising her eyebrows. “Two such charming children. And really you appreciate them less than anyone, and so you don’t deserve to have them.”
And she smiled her ecstatic smile.
“I can’t help it,” said the prince. “Lavater would have said I lack the bump of paternity.”
“Don’t joke; I mean to have a serious talk with you. Do you know I am dissatisfied with your younger son? Between ourselves” (and her face assumed its melancholy expression), “he was mentioned at Her Majesty’s and you were pitied….”
The prince answered nothing, but she looked at him significantly, awaiting a reply. He frowned.
“What would you have me do?” he said at last. “You know I did all a father could for their education, and they have both turned out fools. Hippolyte is at least a quiet fool, but Anatole is an active one. That is the only difference between them.” He said this smiling in a way more natural and animated than usual, so that the wrinkles round his mouth very clearly revealed something unexpectedly coarse and unpleasant.
“And why are children born to such men as you? If you were not a father there would be nothing I could reproach you with,” said Anna Pavlovna, looking up pensively.
“I am your faithful slave and to you alone I can confess that my children are the bane of my life. It is the cross I have to bear. That is how I explain it to myself. It can’t be helped!”
He said no more, but expressed his resignation to cruel fate by a gesture. Anna Pavlovna meditated.
“Have you never thought of marrying your prodigal son Anatole?” she asked. “They say old maids have a mania for matchmaking, and though I don’t feel that weakness in myself as yet, I know a little person who is very unhappy with her father. She is a relation of yours, Princess Mary Bolkonskaya.”
Prince Vasili did not reply, though, with the quickness of memory and perception befitting a man of the world, he indicated by a movement of the head that he was considering this information.
“Do you know,” he said at last, evidently unable to check the sad current of his thoughts, “that Anatole is costing me forty thousand rubles a year? And,” he went on after a pause, “what will it be in five years, if he goes on like this?” Presently he added: “That’s what we fathers have to put up with…. Is this princess of yours rich?”
To equate someone posting their own words to that of plagiarizing another’s words in order to make the point that it makes sense to deride, chide, mock, disparage, ridicule, scorn or otherwise attempt to get someone to stop speaking, especially on an internet site where it takes, literally, only seconds to navigate past any post you don’t want to read is really childish and disrespectful…and lazy too.”
“When I am getting ready to reason with a man, I spend one-third of my time thinking about myself and what I am going to say and two-thirds about him and what he is going to say.”
~ Abraham Lincoln
So, Bill Owen, has it now come to the point that you’ve chosen not to think for yourself at all?
Stupid comment.
Yes, Bill, you’re comment certainly does deserves this distinction. And that you have done it entirely to yourself, well, that’s what is called “reaping what you sow.”
” Maturity is the ability to reap without apology and not complain when things don’t go well.”
Jim Rohn
Needed a reply button for consolidation but be advised that your comment is entirely too long and displays genuinely unrelated content. Thank you for the example.
Character and moral attacks continue, despite late hour, for objecting to the lengthy usurpation of the comments section on just this article: firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/03/28/us-takes-break-condemning-tyranny-celebrate-obamas-visit-saudi-arabia/#
Interesting manifestation of a 3rd Character, “Wilhelmina”, in multiple posts.
See e.g.: 28 Mar 2014 at 9:30 pm
This third entity exhibits a parallel reasoning pattern to the persona of “Mike” and resorts to moral argument and condemnation of those people objecting to both the length and usurpation of the comments sections; using the same moral arguments of “Sillyputty.” In fact ” Wilhelmina” and “Sillyputty” engage in discourse regarding the same. See e.g.: Sillyputty
28 Mar 2014 at 9:57 pm
These conversations are not limited to the example provided.
Review of the comments section on previous Intercept publications, will substantiate that these tactics —- namely personal attacks on the general character attributes and moral integrity of persons objecting to the usurpation of the comments section by “Mike” by using excessive length and unrelated psychological content with intent to disrupt, and “Sillyputty” for defense of “Mike” and “Wilhelmina” for defense of “Sillyputty” and “Mike”—– have been used on other articles against the same and numerous other individuals.
Presently 6 people on this article alone, are entering objection: Tallyho, Kitt, Mona, Lyra1, Bill Owen, and amico humani generis.
There is a question regarding the status of presumptuousinsect, but this because neither “Silly Putty” or ‘Wilhelmina” addressed him/her directly.
INTERCEPT™ BREAKING NEWS: This is a partial transcript from the current, under development, as yet to be released ‘Low-Brow Productions™’ Sci-Fi Who-Done-It:“Lyra1’s World,” aka, “Reality Calling” :
Lyra1: (Urgently…gasp…puff…): “Needed a reply button for consolidation!!!”…(buzz…sputter…)
REALITY BASE STATION: “What seems to be the problem, Lyra1 – over?” … (hiss, static…)
Lyra1:… (Cautiously…gasp…gasp): “be advised!”… (drone…stammer…)
REALITY BASE STATION: “Lost you there…a bit garbled…please confirm, over…” (hiss, static…)
Lyra1… (Warily…wheeze…pant): “Character and moral attacks continue, despite late hour…!”
REALITY BASE STATION: “Affirmative Lyra1…What is your situation now – over?…(hiss, static…)
Lyra1… (Suspiciously…rasp…wheeze): “This is odd… a manifestation of a 3rd Character ?!…”
REALITY BASE STATION: “Affirmative Lyra1…Copy that – over. What are your unbiased observations, dammit!?!”…(hiss, static…)
Lyra1… (Disbelievingly…scratch…breathes with difficulty): “This third entity exhibits a parallel reasoning pattern…!!!”
REALITY BASE STATION: “Copy Lyra1. Be careful…What else? – over”….(hiss, static…)
Lyra1… (Astonishment… irk … fizzle): “Resorts to moral argument and condemnation…using the same moral arguments…?!?”
REALITY BASE STATION: “Sorry…lost you. Say again, Lyra1, over”….(hiss, static…)
Lyra1… (Doubtfully… displeased … crackle): “Resorts to moral argument and condemnation…using the same moral arguments…These conversations are not limited to the example provided.”
REALITY BASE STATION: “Affirmative, over”….(hiss, static…)
Lyra1… (Confidently… pleased … bubble): “Review of comments…will substantiate that…personal attacks on general character attributes and moral integrity…!”
REALITY BASE STATION: “Please hold Lyra1…night-side rotational blackout commencing. Back in 30 revs, over… (hiss, static…)
Lyra1… (Uneasily … forlorn … simmer): ”…………fester……………“
REALITY BASE STATION: “We’re back, Lyra1, do you copy?… over… “
Lyra1… (Awkwardly … desperate … seethe): ”……We’re all objecting to the usurpation of the comments section!!!!!!!”…(fume)… “with intent to disrupt!”…………“ (hiss, static…)
REALITY BASE STATION: “And what’s your final position, Lyra1?… over… “(hiss, static…)
Lyra1… (Humiliation … wretched … frantically): ”……“That these same arguments have been used in other articles against the same and numerous other individuals!!!!…For f*@K sake!!!…Don’t you f*%king understand!?!……
REALITY BASE STATION: “Roger that… Lyra1 – check you O2 levels, STAT… and be advised, the GRRV (Golden Rule Rescue Vehicle) is on its way…We repeat, Lyra1…The GRRV is on its way, over… “(No Static At All™)
*All Basic Human Rights Reserved© – Literally.
**This thread does not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of IBN or its local affiliates – WTF International & SMH.com.
***Sillyputty Productions (SPP), and The Consortium for Reality and Common Decency Productions, Inc., (TCR&CD), on the other hand, are co-contributors and sole legal owners of this content – well, until Glenn Greenwald says otherwise…..:)
Glenn – This article is pretty damn weak. Where to start…
You title this: “U.S. Takes a Break From Condemning Tyranny to Celebrate Obama’s visit to Saudi Arabia.” So by “U.S.” you mean former NSC spokesman Tommy Vietor. Second, who is “celebrating” Obama’s trip to Saudi Arabia? I didn’t see any refernce to that in your article. Needed to “sexy up” the title perhaps? Get those page views? Based on this article’s contents, I would have suggested the title:
What earned Vietor the wrath of GG? In part, a Vietor tweet to Oliver Stone asking the benign question: “how can you support Maduro when he’s illegally jailing opposition leaders like [Leopoldo Lopez]?” Glenn Greenwald – champion of adversarial journalism – characterizes this noncontroversial question as trying to “publicly embarrass Oliver Stone,” a completely absurd claim, and then supposedly unveils a fact-devoid conclusion that Vietor is a liar and a hypocrite who has no concerns for human rights. Glenn’s justification was that because Vietor, in his role as spokesman for the NSC, by default personally agreed with everything the Administration has ever done. I guess if I were the spokesperson for the ACLU, my job to report the organization’s views would be indistinguishable from my own personal beliefs? What an absolutist conclusion.
Anyways, it is a pretty harsh assessment. I’m curious Glenn, did you contact this Vietor guy to discuss this piece and perhaps get a comment from him on your description of his new consulting firm’s function of expressing and embodying the “most conventional, defining views of official imperial Washington about itself”? Nah, you did not do that. You took the route which you have been fairly criticized for in the past by people such as Benjamin Wittes who said:
And you does the exact thing here – another Glenn Greenwald sponsored piece of, “Appeal to Hypocrisy, Guilty By Association, and Character Assassination-based journalism™” You create a carciature of the Vietor guy, in part because he had a picture on his wall of Obama and wore an obscene U.S. flag outfit. Real hard-hitting, adversarial journalism.
It’s a weak piece because he’s rehashing shit that isn’t news. Does anybody really think it’s surprising that a D.C. politician is going to criticize Oliver Stone or Maduro? Shit, even the democratics will take pot shots at anti-imperialist leaders. That’s not news.
Being two-faced in Washington isn’t news either. Christ on crutches, when has the U.S. ever NOT run around pretending to be about human rights while supporting brutal dictatorships?
The other day he reported on “democrat partisanship” or whatever the fuck it is. I guess nobody told Greenwald that Clinton was triangulating back in the 90s. Let’s move on, for pete sake.
Greenwald keeps the focus on D.C. politics though because he doesn’t want to see systemic change in this country. If he had, he’d be reporting about getting rid of systemic change like many other real “fearless and adversarial” bloggers are doing. And he wouldn’t have been hired by a billionnaire neoliberal capitalist. He’s happy to have a little bit of reform around the edges, change out the leaders, change out the NSA guys, get some other corrupt officials in there, just someone different. He’s gatekeeping.
I know that Glenn has written and spoken numerous comments and essays that included comments and conclusions similar to the one below that I’m quoting, but for the sake of brevity, and for the sake of making my search at this moment short, here you go:
Without further response from Oboe I move to acquit Glenn of the charge of being a two-party duopolist supporter. However, I remain dedicated to pushing Glenn into a response concerning media gatekeeping.
Also, I would like to point out that over the years it seems Glenn has contradicted himself on more than a few occasions. As I previously stated, this is legitimate. What is not legitimate is Greenwald’s silence on Ukraine considering Omidyar is the sole benefactor to The Intercept.
“What is not legitimate is Greenwald’s silence on Ukraine considering Omidyar is the sole benefactor to The Intercept.”
So…the entire USA corporate media isn’t enough for you?
Nete, sorry but I don’t understand your line of questioning. Can you reword the question? I would be more than happy to engage in a debate with you, as long as I understand your question.
Thank you, and I look forward to your reply.
I second Oboe’s motion.
Glenn, how do you respond to accusations of gatekeeping given:
A) Pierre Omidyar’s sole benefaction to First Look Media and The Intercept
B) The lack of coverage concerning US meddling in the Euromaidan, which given A seems to be gatekeeping.
Your silence, not on why the dinosaurs went extinct, or any other frivolous distraction, but on Ukraine is tantamount to pleading the 5th Amendment. For the sake of your own credibility in matters of foreign affairs it would behoove you to respond.
There are thousands of people writing about that. Go read them.
By your same line of reasoning I should leave the US if I question the official narrative?
Bill, is this a case of “if you’re not with us you’re against us”??
No.
If you disagree with what an organization is doing, you shouldn’t be its spokesperson, and in Vietor’s case, I seriously doubt the problem is that he secretly opposes certain parts of US foreign policy.
Imagine, if you will, that you’re the Syrian minister of information. Is it reasonable to say “well, we don’t really know if this guy supports the Syrian government in all it’s doing” ? It would be silly to propose that the guy should never be criticized in the future for what he was a part of.
Now, that’s just ridiculous. This is a pure op-ed. Is it necessary to explain that the above is never done in op-eds?
I second Jose’s motion.
Jose stated “This is a pure op-ed. Is it necessary to explain that the above is never done in op-eds?”
Nate, care to respond?
Jose – you are correct, GG doesn’t need to contact the guy. My comment was more a rhetorical question because I think it points to a more overarching issue: Glenn’s lack of respectful interaction with his purported adversaries leads him, IMO, to dehumanize and present them as hollow fools and villains. Now that Glenn is part of this huge venture that aims for comprehensive journalism, and he is a more well known and respected figure, I just cannot understand the value in resorting to such blog-like tactics. This Vieto guy didn’t deserve this attack based on this story’s contents.
As for your spokesperson point, couldn’t you extend that to anybody’s job? If I work for Wal Mart does that mean I agree with everything corporate does, or if I work for the NSA, does that mean I agree with everything they do? Isn’t Snowden proof that such generalizations are inaccurate. I feel like a broken record here, but my credo remains: attack the statements of your adversaries, and not just what you believe are their intentions. Where I work, I agree with the mission of the organization, but often with particular strategies and actions taken in day to day operations.
Don’t like him, don’t read him.
Bill, is this “love it or leave it” or perhaps “if you’re not with us you’re against us” mentality?
What Bill Owen said.
This sentiment, by the way, goes for every poster, everywhere:
“By the power of the mouse-wheel!” – Anon.
“Blog-like tactics.” “…more well known and respected.” Those two bits and pieces expose not only your nose-in-the-air attitude, but also expose that you not only don’t get how Glenn became more “well known,” but also that you think reversing course should be how he retains this “well known and respected” pigeon hole that you think he should now live in.
“This Vieto guy” has been a self serving shill for power for a number of years now. He is living large and being awarded for being just that and (this is an ugly phrase that I almost never use, because it repulses me) for being a brown nose so deep and committed that he must have a hard time seeing the face he was born with when looking in the mirror. He deserves exactly what he got from this stories contents, and then more.
Care to flesh this claim out?
Don’t you open the links?
I second Kitt’s counterclaim and ask Nate to respectfully open links before he either jumps to conclusions or dismisses members of this chamber… please proceed with respect or I will hold you in contempt of court.
However, Kitt, with all due respect, and I openly disclose that we sit on the same side in this chamber, I ask that you give Nate a further explanation of how Tommy Vietor is a shill. It is perhaps the case of you both disagreeing on the standards of shillness, although I openly disclose that I believe Greenwald has provided necessary and sufficient evidence for my own conclusion that Tommy Vietor is in fact a shill for the US government.
Nice try Kitt. I’m to believe that 3 minute video, which I had viewed twice earlier, supports your point that he is a shill when It wasn’t critical of him nor did it make him look like some hack. It talked about how he regained his individuality, is getting calls from the media for input, and has a home office. It also said he made friends with the ESPN guy. Perhaps you had some sinister music playing in the background or approached this video with your mind already made up because you have zero basis to back your claim.
Also, don’t think I forgot your part about him being a shill “for a number of years now.” Kitt-you’ve made some good comments and points in the past but you don’t have a leg to stand on here. You took Glenn’s distortion of that video as fact.
Nate, any specifics on Greenwald’s ‘distortion’ of the video?
@amico humani: the distortion I refer to is:
So Glenn describes this “remarkable” video (which isn’t remarkable at all), using his friend’s characterization of the guy as an imperial bureaucrat who is essentially staring his new job but with the same role as a government shill.
@Nate – I appreciate your clarification. I ask for a 24 hour review if you will grant me the request.. if not I will stay and argue until I pass out.
Thank you!
@Nate
No “sinister” music needed or “mind already made up” needed. I guess when you see some shill jacking off with some chummy news person praising him for his shilling you recognize it as some nice guy making a report on some nice guy. I guess you missed the bit about how he’s now going to allow himself to rephrase things now that he doesn’t have to shill specificslly for the government or White House in his new venture. But in his new venture he is popular because every brown nose in DC knows a superior brown nose when they see one, which is why everyone is calling him to help them sniff out how they can improve upon their brown nosing abilities in the future.
You and I live on two different planets if you bought that video in the way that you’ve described that you did.
Also, I’ve been aware of this guy long before today. Viewing that video today was not my orientation to the asshole. I just like to try no to go on and on when all I’m trying to do is explain my view about something that seems so obvious to me.
You should call Tommy. Tell him how you defended him against the meanies. Maybe he’ll toss you some nose targets for you to consider visiting.
“Don’t you open the links?” LOL
Or just do a search.
Not necessary seeing that I hadn’t heard of the guy until this article today. He wasn’t exactly a key player in the Administration, which makes Glenn’s targeting of him appear even more petty. Further, him and Glenn have been going back and forth on Twitter. It has really devolved into a pathetic ordeal.
@Nate – I can’t deny you two points:
1) I had never heard of Tommy whatnot before today either
&
2) To say he is not a key player is certainly an understatement – But, if Glenn got him to respond on Twitter it appears a nerve has been struck. So….
I guess the questions I am left with are – Why does Tommy whatnot even matter in an editorial that seems like it is going to be about the Obama Admin’s relationship with the House of Saud? Is the article even about Tommy whatnot, or the Obama Admin’s relationship with Saudi Arabia? Apparently neither, but Greenwald does make a case against USG hypocrisy, and this is all while he has editorial review over Snowden’s leaks. I would state the obvious, but I’ll let you be the scapegoated elephant in the room if you dare to go there. Gatekeepers may be watching, so beware.
Unless I’m not seeing some of the exchange, it was all of about a handful of back and forth remarks. Here’s 1 from Glenn after Tommy complained about being what Tommy referred to as bullied: “didn’t realize criticizing senior national security state officials-turned corporate spokesmen was now “bullying” #TearJerker
Others joined in. Tommy eventually took his ball and bat and went home. Is twitter off limits for expressing disgust with public figures, Nate?
Quality question there Kitt. I think this conversation was reached its conclusion…
@Dom Aversano the video you show, which ‘proves’ Galloway supports Assad, is rather far-fetched.Galloway asks, which side you would be on, the side which eats hearts and lungs, all manner of bizarre things, or Assad? I think Galloway was doing it for dramatic emphasis.
I think you’re taking out it of context.I’ve followed Galloway for years, and I like to assure you and readers of The Intercept, Galloway does not support
Assad, nor does he support the West giving munitions to the Free Syrian Army.
The whole purpose of this article, was to show just b/c you’re against one side, does not mean you’re for the other.
“It is true that in this region (as is true for the U.S.), there remains a small, fervent band of left-wing fanatics with crazed enthusiasm for the worn-out, socialist/collectivist policies which have condemned millions upon millions of people throughout Latin America to poverty unimaginable to even the poorest Americans. These putative “mass demonstrations” in Argentina and Brazil are, in reality, nothing more than a few isolated spray-painting incidents of trite pacifist slogans in Brasilia, and a Cindy Sheehan-like “rally” of hard-core Socialists in Argentina led by an obese, Castro-idolozing, retired soccer player who found time away from his decade-old cocaine addiction to show up wearing an oh-so-clever t-shirt showing Bush’s name spelled with a swastika.
Hardly the stuff of mass demonstrations and popular anti-Bush uprisings, New York Times reports and breathless television correspondents notwithstanding.
In some countries, most notably Venezuela, this vintage left-wing, anti-American fervor is not small, but is predominant, which is what has led that country to be under the repressive thumb of Fidel Castro-copy Hugo Chavez, whose primary interest in attending this Latin American regional summit seems to be to lure Bush and the U.S. into some sort of game of childish taunts rather than doing something constructive to aid his impoverished, unstable country.”
The above invective was spoken by Tommy Vietor….oh, gosh, I’m sorry, the above was written by Glenn Greenwald, the “anti-imperialist” and “champion of the masses.”
verify your accusation or it will be just another erroneous rumor.
http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/2005/11/reality-of-latin-american-reaction-to.html
There’s plenty of other ugly pro-imperialist bullshit on there as well.
Glenn, will you stand by your words or retract your previous statements?
It was a hit piece. He never provided sources for his claims about Chavez or the Ven government, or the protesters or their back story. You can disagree with Chavez’s policies in a more respectful manner, but that piece was just ugly and demeaning. It also paints Bush as the “victim” receiving unfair press, if such a thing could even be believed.
You answered for Greenwald. Given the preface to his first book (2006), which is certainly filled with nostalgia for American Exceptional, as well as an Originalist interpretation of the Constitution, is it possible that Greenwald, a former lawyer, and admirer of “US Constitutional values”, has had to rethink many of his positions? Is it possible that he no longer holds the same beliefs? I know I have had to rethink many of the positions that I held 8 years ago. Have you also gone through that process?
What is your response to the preface of “How Would a Patriot Act” (yes, a rather trite title):
“My deep concerns about the Padilla case eroded but did not entirely eliminate my support for the president. The next significant item on the president’s agenda was the invasion of Iraq. While the administration recited the standard and obligatory clichés about war being a last resort, by mid-2002 it appeared, at least to me, that the only unresolved issue was not whether we would invade but when the invasion would begin.
During the lead-up to the invasion, I was concerned that the hell-bent focus on invading Iraq was being driven by agendas and strategic objectives that had nothing to do with terrorism or the 9/11 attacks. The overt rationale for the invasion was exceedingly weak, particularly given that it would lead to an open-ended, incalculably costly, and intensely risky preemptive war. Around the same time, it was revealed that an invasion of Iraq and the removal of Saddam Hussein had been high on the agenda of various senior administration officials long before September 11. Despite these doubts, concerns, and grounds for ambivalence, I had not abandoned my trust in the Bush administration. Between the president’s performance in the wake of the 9/11 attacks, the swift removal of the Taliban in Afghanistan, and the fact that I wanted the president to succeed, because my loyalty is to my country and he was the leader of my country, I still gave the administration the benefit of the doubt. I believed then that the president was entitled to have his national security judgment deferred to, and to the extent that I was able to develop a definitive view, I accepted his judgment that American security really would be enhanced by the invasion of this sovereign country.
It is not desirable or fulfilling to realize that one does not trust one’s own government and must disbelieve its statements, and I tried, along with scores of others, to avoid making that choice until the facts no longer permitted such logic.”
Oboe, your response?
Glenn has publicly evolved in his views on Latin America since that ’05 post was written. In ’08 he wrote this:
http://www.salon.com/2008/11/28/nyt_3/
Given the rigorous debate in these chambers – a debate so rarely missing in our media landscape, MSM and otherwise – I hereby judge in favor of the defendant Glenn Greenwald.
Not only has Glenn’s political thought evolved in the past 8 years, but we must also recognize, my fellow netizens, that having the right to retract statements is a human right, and having the intellectual courage to say you were wrong is commendable.
Oboe, are people allowed to change their mind over a span of 8 years?
How is that pro-imperialist?
That does read like execrable right wing neo-con boilerplate from here. To be fair, I was that stupid at one time as well, although I don’t think it took until 2005 before I began seeing through the neo-con BS. I am really glad I wasn’t committing my similarly ignorant political thoughts to the public record back then. I’d have a lot of explaining to do. As does GG if he hasn’t already.
His public record since ’05 explains quite well. In addition to the ’08 Salon column on Chavez I just quoted, he also wrote this in late ’06: http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/2006/12/washington-posts-praise-for-augusto.html
Given the rigorous debate in these chambers – a debate so rarely missing in our media landscape, MSM and otherwise – I hereby judge in favor of the defendant Glenn Greenwald.
Not only has Glenn’s political thought evolved in the past 8 years, but we must also recognize, my fellow netizens, that having the right to retract statements is a human right, and having the intellectual courage to say you were wrong is commendable
Did he ever actually acknowledge writing such an offensive blog post though? . You must not understand how offensive it reads. I wasn’t a status quo apologist even back then so if I had read it in 05 I still would have found it offensive.
Also, how was Chavez “hostile” towards the US government? ( from ?? 2008 piece?) It wasn’t Chavez putting troops in Mexico on our border, it wasn’t Chavez attempting coups against Bush or Obama.
Sorry sounds like he was still buying into the imperialist rhetoric about Chavez. Did he ever apologize for his offensive remarks about Castro, Chavez, and the anti-American protesters, though?
His blog roll even in 2008 reads like a who’s who of bourgeois authoritarianism. Balloon Juice? National Review? Digby?
I’m guessing Greenwald never changed, but his audience did. Political opportunism.
Oboe, I also believe that Greenwald is a political opportunist, or better stated a shady businessman. But, he still has time to actually stand by or retract his statements, as he so often pushes other journalists to do. In your defense, I can say with a high degree of probability that Greenwald remains silent either because he sees his imperialist rhetoric either as journalistic blunder, or that he still harbors those sentiments and knows that many in his audience will no longer take his rhetoric seriously.
Glenn, would you care to comment, or will you give the silent 5th Amendment treatment?
Didn’t you once believe in the tooth fairy? Do you still believe in the tooth fairy?
This is how we train our children to serve the state.
They learn that in exchange for pretending to believe their parents’ nonsense about the tooth fairy, they will be rewarded with money under their pillow.
As adults, they pretend to believe the noble sentiments expressed by their leaders, knowing they will be rewarded with oil and pickup trucks.
No links I see.
You wouldn’t read them anyway.
The supposed essay by Glenn Greenwald is a fake.
Perspective.
I read this statement over and over and could not see what you see.
Why?
Because I am not in your head. I do not know what your PERSPECTIVE is. And what is perspective? Your point of view, the scope of the segment of society or the world around you that you consider when you ponder these thoughts.
And your perspective seems rather limited.
What I read here is an opinion about people in Glenn’s neighborhood – South America, who pretend to be concerned with social issues and the leaders who lead their pretense. I see observations that are quite obvious to me about Hugo Chavez; a man whom I respected for his standing up to America, but who was really just another lying, manipulating politician – as they all are.
I see no pro-imperialism in there. I see quite a bit of anti-imperialism though. This statement was taken out of context – not that I am accusing, but this is a common trick of some to manipulate opinion.]
What I really see here though is a guy who doesn’t like Glenn Greenwald, likely because he is jealous that Glenn, and not he, has access to the most important documents in a generation and possibly in the history of industrialized society and most certainly to the new era of the police state. I see efforts to demean a man who has one hell of a lot of awful responsibility over those documents, and history itself.
And what I see, is counteproductive, to your own detriment as a matter of fact.
There are two possibilities: you are ignorant of sufficient knowledge and understanding to both appreciate the work Glenn is doing, and the importance of that work to you; or you are aware of how important it is and are deliberate in your efforts to undermine it. The latter is unlikely even if you are a psychopath because the knowledge sufficient to carry out a campaign would not have been passed up by an organization like the NSA, and your posts do not suggest a pattern of NSA employment. The more obvious choice is that you just don’t realize that you are attacking the man who has what you need because you are subconsciously upset, as a result of your ego, that he, not you, was chosen to sort through those documents.
This, I am afraid, is the most vital aspect of why Snowden’s decision on dissemination was incorrect. But I honestly don’t know if there was a correct answer possible given the nature of our society. The correct answer would have been that Snowden should have sought refuge in a nation that would have afforded him the ability and resources to ply through the documents himself, so that he alone could decide what information to release. But I don’t believe Snowden reasons at universal ethics and thus is not capable of making such decisions. I do know that Snowden did make the best decision possible, thus it would seem to be a foregone conclusion that the decision was correct from Snowden’s perspective. And with Snowden unaware of moral reasoning, how could he know whom to choose.
His choice then was a compromise which was necessitated by the fact that humanity is nearly universally far too immature for its own good. There are not enough people are their potential for moral reasononing to have created a pool of people Snowden could have gone to. And our education system fails so universally that Snowden would never have had the opportunity to understand moral reasoning and thus make the correct decision.
But the bottom line is, we have a less-than-ideal situation and we must deal with it as it stands. We cannot undo Edwards’ decision. We cannot keep our perspective in the past, we have to move it forward. And that means dealing with things as they are, and that means accepting that Glenn, Laura, and others are the gatekeeprs of the information Snowden gathered on our behalf. That is what Snowden wanted, and I do believe we should accept that as a contract between Snowden and the world as a reasonable condition for the release of the knowledge of what is really going with our power and resources (as Americans, Britons, and indeed world citizens.)
Yes this has been happening and continues to happen, it doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be told just because its a new or old acing doing it. Anytime scum is brought into sunlight there’s a chance it might die before the sun sets.
Here’s what President Obama said in Brussels the other day about why we need to oppose Putin’s actions in Crimea. Not opposing such tyranny
“would allow the old way of doing things to regain a foothold in this young century. And that message would be heard, not just in Europe, but in Asia and the Americas, in Africa and the Middle East.”
Three cheers for Hope and Change and new ways of doing things in this young century.
For example, here’s what Obama is doing in Africa:
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2014/03/27-4
(BTW, I wholehearted condemn Putin’s action in Crimea. I wouldn’t want Tom Ricks to think the worst about me.)
Makes one wonder if the “old way of doing things” includes 2003. The century was pretty young then, too…
Before wholeheartedly condemning Putin and trumpeting the ongoing US/Western propaganda, please do try condemning your own country’s actions in instigating the coup d’é·tat that unseated the existing government. Please don’t swallow the kool aid and then believe you’re on the moral high ground when your opinion on this subject has been predigested and bears striking resemblance to the rhetoric of the Cold War that served the interests of a young, hungry, growing Corporatocracy.
http://rt.com/op-edge/ukraine-intellectuals-standing-ground-833/
http://blackagendareport.com/content/freedom-rider-%E2%80%9Cjournalists%E2%80%9D-follow-obama-ukraine
http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/Vladimir-Putin-Ukraine-Crimea-treaty/2014/03/04/id/555859/
That was actually a joke in regards to recent idiotic comments by Mr. Ricks. I guess I should have used a smiley face emoticon.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/tom-ricks-glenn-greenwald-edward-snowden
My information is not predigested. The shenanigans of the US government in this region since 1989 have been counterproductive and stupid in many ways.
But Putin’s recent action was bellicose, stupid, and not the ideal way to provide self-determination for the peoples of the former Soviet Union.
What would your country do if one of it’s military bases in a location essential to its competent defense were threatened by the CIA funded NGOs fomenting revolution in the country in which that base resides?
If Mexico were an ego-pumped great power, let’s say, and it disrupted normal government in San Diego, fomenting a coup and moving to take over the naval base there, would you expect or support sitting back and surrendering that base to Mexico?
I think Putin acted in the only way he could under the circumstances which were surreptitiously created by the Western Allies, and especially as the citizens of the Crimea voted to join with Russia. What is undemocratic and disrespectful of the people’s rights to self-determination is the way the West behaves, trouncing carelessly across the globe, feasting on human blood and the resources of other nations.
Such superiority should not be tolerated, EVER.
I pray daily for a nationalist American leader of the caliber of Vladimir Putin.Is he perfect?Probably not,he aint Jesus.But he is defending his countries interests against the immoral west,and I salute him.Now wheres our guy to rescue US from the monsters of Zion?
Hup! Whattya know? Another Fascist Fanatic dressed in …literally…”Red White and Blue” and pretending to be some kind of “Liberal Democrat” while in point of fact being nothing hut the most Fascistic Right Wing “Control And Coercion For Profit” Ideologue.
Wonderful.
Glad to have him out of the closet.
What I love so much about this headline is that it could have run (almost) just as easily on The Onion.
I wonder if Obama’s conduct could be reduced to a simple set of rules: flatter those from whom some advantage may be gained; defame the opponents of the day by linking their names to ogres like Hitler or Stalin, and so on. Conscience seems the only obstacle in the way of this kind of conduct, but of course, conscience, morals and ethics can all be feigned too. Once upon a time I imagined that Obama might have been the fulfilment of the promise of Rosa Parks, but today I see that if he intended changing anything except the window dressing, his rise to the top would never have been permitted.
I’d like to know on what grounds do you include Sultan Qaboos of Oman in the group of “most brutal Arab despots” and “worst Arab dictators”? From what I know, he’s not exactly a democrat but no brutal despot either.
I’m glad someone has mentioned this. Glenn, you’re too damn good of a journalist to resort to these lazy generalizations that you so frequently call out the rest of your peers on. The UAE, Qatar, Oman – these countries are certainly not democracies, yet, if you conducted a free and fair poll, I suspect that the approval ratings of their leaders would be higher than almost any democractically elected leader in the Western world.
There is certainly some level of oppression, particularly of the media. There are certainly issues of freedom and what not. But the leaders in these countries have, by and large, used the wealth generated by oil and gas and invested in infrastructure and human development. And most people recognize this, because they know that life one or two generations back was very different.
Call them out for a lack of democracy, but understand that democracy may not be the number one concern on the minds of the citizens here and now. The Arab Spring has largely bypassed these nations, and it isn’t because of a heavy handed security apparatus – it’s because the people, broadly speaking, are uninterested in revolution.
I admire your work a great deal, which is why I’m calling you out on this. As I said, you’re too good a journalist to fall into this lazy trap of generalization.
You also mentioned Kuwait in your article. While Kuwait certainly has political issues at the moment, the country is essentially semi-democratic. They have an elected parliament, which has significant power and influence. It’s quite unique in the Gulf, and it is debatable whether it is actually working. Yes, the Emir is ultimately top of the food chain, but the model of governence is very different. It is worth recognizing that, and making that distinction.
Once again Mr. Greenwald, thank you for posing the questions and supplying the obvious answers.
Bottom line…..National Governments are working all over the world conducting massive media propaganda campaigns called Politics designed to substantiate “good and bad” wars whose proceeds go to the International Banking Cartel.
Meanwhile, the citizenry of faction governments, rallies up to an essentially fictional “side” and pays for these contrived wars with “tax payer” dollars totally convinced that there is some divine national purpose
in killing and/or maiming humans for the profit of the International Bankers.
And the saga goes on and on and on and on…..historically – because of the sheer inability of the human slaves to recognize the fact that they outnumber the controlling few.
True freedom lies within. Money is, at best, a false god.
Again, I wish you and The Intercept the most benevolent outcome in your endeavors.
Realpolitik is the only sensible basis for relationships between countries. But hypocrisy and posturing for consumption by your own public is necessary. You have to tell people what they want to believe since anything else is a recipe for political failure.
The author of this article, whoever he is, seems to persist if feeding this naive line of thinking. He implies that if only the people could recognize the hypocrisy of their leaders, those leaders would be forced to renounce tyrants such as King Saud. This fails on two fronts. Firstly, King Saud and western leaders may have supercially dissimilar values. But those values are merely adopted for convenience based on their cultural backgrounds and the expectations of their citizenry. They all share the common characteristic of being ready to jettison their entire value system if they see any profitable motive for doing so. The world’s largest arms dealer is in no way morally superior to the world’s largest arms buyer. Their leaders deserve each other.
But more importantly, the author is intelligent enough to know that the US should be supporting tyrants who favor the petrodollar (Saudi Arabia) and destroying tyrants who don’t (Iraq, Libya). The alternative is a plummeting US standard of living.
So the choice is not whether western leaders should be moral or immoral (they don’t have that choice), but between whether the US should be wealthy or poor. As someone said in a previous thread: you can’t have your cake and eat it too. You can be moral or powerful, but not both.
In conclusion, western engagement with leaders in countries such as Saudi Arabia, is essential to influence them to behave more morally and justly towards their own people. And to increase their oil production. A win-win!
You appear to have entirely overlooked Greenwald’s final paragraph (and did not grasp his point). Last graf:
The author is arguing that people should be less hypocritical. I am arguing that they are being exactly hypocritical enough. It is too bad you can’t see any difference in those two positions.
The author’s position is more dishonest, since he does not acknowledge the severe costs of being less hypocritical. I am presenting the pros and cons of each alternative. Although since most people will reject logic, I added the last paragraph to keep them happy.
Also the phrase ‘far more benign governments’ is the ultimate in naivety – as I pointed out in my comment.
He was not compelled to in order to be “honest.” The post is not about the pros and cons of hypocrisy, but is rather about the fact of it.
The piece is about the utterly brazen hypocrisy that is unacknowledged by most Westerners. (Which is dishonest at worst, stupid at best.) He pushed it into public and would force acknowledgement.
So your position is: people are stupid tell them anything you want; who needs morallity when you’re rich.
Of course not. Leaders are primarily motivated by the welfare of their people. Weren’t you properly indoctrinated in school?
Not with a name like dilettante. ;)
What would constitute “properly indoctrinated”? In my observation leaders are primarily motivated by their own desire for power.
“So the choice is not whether western leaders should be moral or immoral (they don’t have that choice), but between whether the US should be wealthy or poor.”
The false god of perceived wealth is always the driving force.
If you can simply print paper dollars and exchange them for all the world’s oil then your wealth is in fact real. Wealth consists of owning or controlling resources which others desire.
Fact.
No argument.
How does that work with Venezuela? Did the leaders of Venezuela “behave more morally and justly towards their own people” when the US had more influence?
My argument concluded that it was correct to be hypocritical. So the sentence you blockquoted is in fact, hypocritical. Governments do not behave morally. But they should be perceived to behave morally. Hence hypocrisy is necessary.
You have asserted this without demonstrating that the promulgation of the false perception is necessary.
It’s self-evident that it’s necessary. People oppose “humanitarian” interventionism, even in the face of a well-promoted pretense. Imagine if they were honest about it.
It is easy to demonstrate. If the government advertises that it does not behave morally, people are often less willing to support it for some reason. The government therefore must deceive the people, and the people pretend to be deceived so that they can share in the benefits of the government’s immoral actions without acknowledging complicity. This is called a social compact.
So the government is hypocritical and the people are hypocritical in return. Why is hypocrisy so widespread? Because without it, we couldn’t live with ourselves.
The other choice is to cease to be powerful – but you will then be exploited by someone else. I said before; you can be moral or powerful, but not both. Power is the ability to use others for your own benefit – which is by definition immoral.
That’s a helluva comment, Mr. Mussolini. What I’m beginning to find attractive about fascism (as represented by you) is that it’s a form of authoritarianism that is principled and coherent. The authoritarianism of the PC left, on the other hand, is opportunistic and conflicted. Reading you, it’s easy to see how you became so popular — it’s actually possible to understand what you believe in! You openly say that you’re lying (in effect), and the people laugh and take it as a lie. Brilliant! Leftist authoritarians make a big show about being honest and virtuous and moral, etc., so when they inevitably get caught committing the slightest little sin, the people turn on them. Hypocrisy! LOL!
Mr. Mussolini,
What do you think should be done about the people in this site, who obviously refuse to play along?
I acknowledge the necessity and efficacy of hypocrisy. But as to the question about Venezuela, even if we speak of the public perception of morality, I think it’s clear that it has increased as US influence has decreased. So, unless I’m missing something, I still have the same question about your statement, which was this:
What he means is that the US does have an interest, albeit a weak one, in having Saudi Arabia be less oppressive, for obvious reasons.
Interesting comments. I feel like I’m reading Machiavelli’s “The Prince.”
It is naive to think that the US people are gaining a break on the price of oil because the US government supports the government of Saudi Arabia. Sure, more than one somebody benefits, but they are not the kind of folks anyone need be concerned about.
The US can run a larger deficit than any other country, without risking bankruptcy because there is an international demand for dollars, partly since oil is priced in dollars. (Unless you believe it is based on the immense worldwide desire for US manufactured products). This underpins the entire US economy.
The US government can print as many dollars as they want – so they will never lose the ability to purchase oil, regardless of what price it is set at.
Take away pricing of oil in dollars, and other countries will suddenly see much less value in purchasing US debt. It will happen someday, and the austerity program implemented as a result will be unprecedented. It will affect all kinds of folks – possibly even the kind you would be ‘concerned about’ (which I assume means you yourself).
Yes, “partly” sounds more reasonable than what I quoted.
Galloway impressed the hell out of me by telling the congress of the US what a bunch of war puppet lackey lick spittle ass kissers and tyrant enablers they were a number of years back. It was truly epic to see these pompous asses handed their asses…. on the TV machine no less.
And Britain’s hypocritical Labour Party, too.
From his Wiki page:
Bringing the Labour Party into disrepute? A badge of honour, I’d say.
As I keep saying over and over…wherever the US goes, shit is sure to follow. Is this Obama’s ‘clean up the poop’ trip?
The cast of characters may change and the countries involved may undergo revision, but the game remains the same: undermine and overthrow any government that refuses to bow down to American interests. We saw this play out in Iran in 1953, in Guatemala in 1954, and in Chile in 1973. (And it explains why America has been relentless in its efforts to undermine the Castro brothers for over fifty years.) Recently, various groups associated with the American deep state have been working diligently to overthrow the governments of Turkey, Venezuela, and Ukraine (and El Salvador may soon be added to the list). While Ukraine’s democratic government has been replaced by a more pliable cast of characters, the Maduro Administration in Venezuela hasn’t cooperated with the script. Meanwhile, America has tacitly supported ruthless crackdowns in Egypt and Bahrain, looking the other way while their governments shot or tortured demonstrators and other opponents of their regimes. The next time President Obama spouts off about Iran’s support for terrorism in the Middle East, please remember that our “ally”, Saudi Arabia, is currently in alliance with various jihadi elements in Syria that routinely engage in terrorist activity. We shouldn’t allow ourselves to be fooled by the moral posturing most American politicians engage in and recognize their actions for what they are: cold self-interest.
All politicians of all national governments are just pieces on the gameboard of the International Bankers.
The more important point here is that this so perfectly reflects the central propagandistic self-delusion amazingly sustained throughout the west. The very same western countries that snuggle up to and prop up the planet’s worst dictators are the same ones who strut around depicting themselves as crusaders for democracy and freedom, all while smearing anyone who objects to their conduct as lovers of tyranny. That’s how David Cameron can literally embrace and strengthen the autocrats of Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, the UAE, Yemen and so many others, while accusing others with a straight face of lending support “wherever there is a brutal Arab dictator in the world”. GG
Although I heartily agree with your thesis that many western countries hypocritically depict themselves as crusaders for democracy and freedom, while smearing anyone who objects to their conduct as lovers of tyranny, I do not agree that Davis Cameron, or the bulk of western leaders, are self-deluded. Delusion is defined as an “idiosyncratic belief or impression that is firmly maintained despite being contradicted by what is generally accepted as reality or rational argument.” It is my perception that many western leaders have cynically adopted a form of propaganda that attempts to depict world events in a way that best facilitates the hidden agenda of transnational capital interests. To this end, they are not attempting to persuade their respective constituencies to adopt beliefs to which they themselves sincerely subscribe. Rather, they have uniformly adopted, and meticulously tailored for local consumption, the anti-terror rhetoric coming out of Washington with the specific intent of creating the illusion of unanimity of purpose. The never-ending war on Islamic sponsored terror is merely the multi-national version of Goebbel’s “big lie.” In fact, transnational capital interests have been instrumental in constructing the foreign policies of western “democracies” in a way that has allowed for the secret creation and ongoing funding of the multi-headed hydra of international terror for more than half a century. Yes indeed, Galloways’s invocation of Frankenstein’s monster was an apt description of state-sponsored transnational terror.
Good comment, Wilhelmina. Nicely extends the thesis. These powerful people have not reached the apex of that power by being ignorant and they will do anything that serves those interests.
@Pedinska
Thank you for graciously acknowledging my contribution.
My guess is it depends on each individual’s psychology. Generally, human beings prefer to think of themselves as good and morally upright. The ability to rationalize and compartmentalize is manifest in experience of others, and even of ourselves.
“My guess is it depends on each individual’s psychology. Generally, human beings prefer to think of themselves as good and morally upright. The ability to rationalize and compartmentalize is manifest in experience of others, and even of ourselves.”
Glenn was arguing that western leaders are deluded because they perceive themselves as crusaders for democracy and freedom. I believe that these leaders are merely concerned with projecting that image for the purpose of pandering to the public’s preconditioned mindset (cultural bias). Whether Glenn realizes it, or not, the claim of self-delusion mitigates a certain degree of culpability that is otherwise conferred on those who cynically propagandize their constituencies for power sake. The outcomes to which Glenn refers does not support the perception that Western leaders could be genuinely concerned with the “moral uprightness” of their actions. Such claims are a form of delusion themselves.
Because human beings are psychologically complicated and quite varied, I disagree. While I suspect that sociopathic personalities are attracted to power politics, it is still the case that many or most individuals are uncomfortable at thinking of themselves as not good. So they employ coping strategies to avoid seeing themselves as not good, even when they clearly are not.
It really does depend on the person.
This type of equivocation does little more than advance the perception that certain ends can justify the means. Western leaders know where their financial support comes from. They are also keenly aware that contributions are made on a quid pro quo basis. If one were to cite the politically pragmatic lies of Candidate Obama as an example of conscious duplicity (as Glen has often done), then one can clearly see that he had no intention of conducting himself in a way that could possibly afford him ability to maintain the illusion of “moral uprightness” :
“The Obama campaign greatly impressed the public relations industry, which named Obama “Advertising Age’s marketer of the year for 2008,” easily beating out Apple. The industry’s prime task is to ensure that uninformed consumers make irrational choices, thus undermining market theories. And it recognizes the benefits of undermining democracy the same way.
The Center for Responsive Politics reports that once again elections were bought: “The best-funded candidates won nine out of 10 contests, and all but a few members of Congress will be returning to Washington.” Before the conventions, the viable candidates with most funding from financial institutions were Obama and McCain, with 36% each. Preliminary results indicate that by the end, Obama’s campaign contributions, by industry, were concentrated among Law Firms (including lobbyists) and financial institutions. The investment theory of politics suggests some conclusions about the guiding policies of the new administration. ” – Noam Chomsky
When are we going to stop making excuses for our own gullibility?
While I suspect that sociopathic personalities are attracted to power politics, it is still the case that many or most individuals are uncomfortable at thinking of themselves as not good. So they employ coping strategies to avoid seeing themselves as not good, even when they clearly are not.
I think this is accurate as well.
I think this conversation is trapped a bit in the “either this or that” model. I think both of you would agree that while humans tend to want to think in manichean ways, reality is almost always a spectrum, with most things falling somewhere between the extremes.
It’s entirely possible that while there is likely a good deal of what Mona lays bout above going on, I would postulate that the higher a given person climbs within that hierarchy, the more difficult it would be for them to accurately apply that logic to themselves.
The hard part is in figuring out the percentages of justification versus rationalization and/or outright deception. And that applies to scads of leaders all over the globe, making determinations just that much more difficult and manicheanism that much more prevalent.
Our politics and the perversions of our leadership have become so egregious, with so many people falling into extremis with no sign of amelioration anywhere, that it’s very difficult to even try to view them as anything but inhumane assholes anymore.
“Our politics and the perversions of our leadership have become so egregious, with so many people falling into extremis with no sign of amelioration anywhere, that it’s very difficult to even try to view them as anything but inhumane assholes anymore.”
SPOT ON!!!
“It is my perception that many western leaders have cynically adopted a form of propaganda that attempts to depict world events in a way that best facilitates the hidden agenda of transnational capital interests.”
True.
Concur.
Yeah, I noticed that too. Although some of our leaders seem to be true believers I find it hard to believe that Cameron, who is reasonably bright and had a good British education, actually believes what he says about Galloway, etc.
Of course, in the end, as a very good psychologist once told me, “You never know what a person is thinking, even if they tell you.”.
I think that is true. ;)
Uh-oh. You mentioned Israel in a bad light. Welcome to “the fringe”.
Oh, he’s done that before, and has therefore, of course, been denounced as antisemitic. http://www.algemeiner.com/2013/07/11/glenn-greenwalds-anti-semitism-exposed/
Come now, Mona, you know he’s a “self-hating Jew.”
Some things, Gator, go without saying. ;)
Holy crap! I’m surprised his house hasn’t been firebombed. ;-)
Thanks for the link. I too have been accused of antisemitism for speaking out about how the U.S. seems to treat Israel as if it were some kind of U.S. protectorate.
It’s the opposite,actually,as the Zionists protect the US banksters who infect the world with their poison.
The issues Glenn raises here are so bloody obvious it’s quite extraordinary there is any debate at all as regards Mr. Greenwald’s conclusions. Saudi Arabia is a human abomination and I remember a picture a George Bush French kissing Bandar or the King or whoever. Old King Saud is like the Pope I guess and honor must be paid (talk about tyranny). The idea the blathering of the political class is taken seriously by anyone is astonishing to me.
The art of comforting lies has been brought to a science. It might be astonishing, but think of all the cultural influences that come together to make people believe that our two-party system offers real choice, that our leaders consider our interests, that our armed forces are used for humanitarian purposes, and so on, and so on. How else can we explain Obama’s fervent supporters? Or the frenzied rage among the so-called liberals about what the Republicans are doing at any given moment, as if their aims don’t almost always fit into Obama’s real plans.
Debate?
There is no debate; what we see on an ever increasing worldwide scale is the mainstream media representing the United States and it’s lackeys, in the management of human perception, to a degree that is almost unimaginable.
The Glenn Greenwalds of the world are engaged in the beginning battles of a war that will likely never be won, but will benefit mankind by keeping the elites on edge.
Their perception of their omniscience is one of the hidden in plain sight weapons we have in their camps.
And the weapon the elites use of course is perception management; it’s been so successful, most of humanity has no idea that they rarely have any wholly independent thoughts…
You really think the leaders are unaware of the contradictions? Isn’t it more likely they’re saying 2+2=5?
You really think the leaders are unaware of the contradictions? Isn’t it more likely they’re saying 2+2=5?
Wow, this is brilliantly concise.
Are you saying liars realize they are lying(contradictions-hah)?C’mon,that’s what makes them liars.Otherwise they are all just mistaken morons.
” The very same person invoking human rights concerns to publicly condemn Stone for supporting the democratically elected government of Venezuela spent years working to support and prop up far more brutal, vicious, oppressive tyrannies, ones never elected to anything.”
They may not have been elected by their citizens but they were approved by Washington. American exceptionalism is the root problem here. The US government actually thinks it is morally wrong for other independent sovereign nations to act like independent sovereign nations. But because we rule through foreign aid (a bribe) given to allies (puppets) rather than force other nations to fly our flag and salute our president the people don’t even have a clue that we’ve morphed into an empire. Young imperial bureacrat indeed.
Some say it’s oil. You say it’s exceptionalism. I think exceptionalism is a tool and a justification. It’s not what drives them.
Many in the US (what are called neo-cons) believe that the US must actively create a world order that is friendly to its security and prosperity of its elites — global hegemony, in other words. So any governments that are anti-elite or anti-imperialist, that shun US businesses and so on (i.e. Venezuela) can’t be allowed to succeed. US embassies around the world actively work on this, and we know that thanks to Wikileaks. Governments that play ball are OK. How repressive they are is irrelevant in this case. That’s only useful when trying to undermine unfriendly governments.
A Western world oligarch’s enrichment scheme,and the Appolonnians(saw story at Ynet or Haretz about a Zionist poison ivy league(redundant)paper that was very well received in Zion)suffer.
I have the firm belief in a tide that enriches all makes a nation much, much more wealthy,in myriad ways,than one that enriches few.
Apparently, also, 15 of the 19 hijackers on 9/11 were from Saudi Arabia.
Glenn, and all other investigative journalists:
Why?
Why is Cameron blatantly hypocritical? Why does he lie to us? Why does he say one thing and do another?
Why is Obama, a nobel peace prize winner, even worse at hypocrisy? Why does he go the extremes of, for example, ordering leaks to the press then prosecuting journalists who received “unauthorized leaks”? Why would he lie knowing full well he would be caught.
It’s not enough for us to know what is going on. We need to understand why. Why is the most important question. If we knew why, for example, every western leader appears to be lying through their teeth, we might better be able to act, or more importantly, more motivated to act.
Who, what, where, and when aren’t enough. We need to know how, and we need to know why especially. Why answers motivations, it fills the missing dimension in all news we read these days. Why are we concerned about what Snowden gave you from the NSA? Why are we concerned that Obama and Cameron and others are hypocrites?
I have begun answering these questions for myself. And the answers are staggering. And as I have come to understand the answers to why, I would like to share my methods. I’ve already shared the results of my research and investigations into why these things are happening, why these people think they can get away with lying so blatantly on the world stage; but I realize my answers should not be accepted for fact. They must be verified by you, or by the reader.
As such, I will illustrate my research course herein so that you can have a roadmap for answering these vital questions for the reader, and so that those intelligent and sufficiently self-motivated readers can also find these answers for themselves:
Read and understand the Wikipedia article on Kohlberg’s Moral Development. This will acquaint you with the theories behind something called “moral reasoning,” which is the basis by which all humans make nearly all of the decisions they make – when those decisions affect others, which is far, far more often than most people imagine – which is in and of itself a clue.
Once you have read and understand what moral reasoning is, study psychopathy, especially at the website lovefraud.com, to learn what the absence of moral reasoning is.
Moral reasoning is the fundamental basis on which we make decisions. We exist in a perspective that includes others in our lives. If we are egotistical – forced into such a state for example by an environment that requires using survival skills every day – our perspective will be limited – as we need to be more efficient in our survival and thus have to limit our concern for those immediately around us and immediately affecting us – from our perception that is.
The ultimate of course is a complete lack of moral reasoning. This is the realm of the psychopath.
I have written a draft paper which expresses my theories about moral reasoning, psychopaths, and the ultimate “why” to answer all questions that journalists are asking today. And while that paper is linked elsewhere here in another comment on another story, I will not share it now. I want to see if anyone else can come to the same conclusion I came by having access to what believe is the most vital information. I honestly don’t know if those sources contain sufficient information to draw the conclusions I drew. I suffered brain damage and can’t quite remember where all the sources of information came that I was able to draw such conclusions. But I also feel its important that people get used to the idea of coming to understanding of things on their own, instead of continuing to rely, despite all logic, on others to find truths about their lives for them.
I do hope people will start asking why.
You are either naive or your question is hopelessly rhetorical.
Here goes:
Representative “democracy” is a failure.
Expecting anyone to be uncorrupted by power and money is a fools errand.
Planet earth must implement open source direct democracies.
This statement, ironically, is both naive and rhetorical. Oh, and redundant.
It is only a failure because those who are to be represented, the citizens, have abdicated their responsibilities by not voting, voting ignorantly, and/or are not managing the elected representatives, who are, in fact, their employees. The tail is wagging the dog, so to speak.
Perhaps a gross over-generalization, but expecting any change without being a part of that change (see the point about managing your elected representatives) is, and has been, an irrational plan.
That would most likely be awesome; but in the interim, people have to learn to participate in what they do have, in order to take that participatory ethos forward to make that change from what we have now, to what we want for our future.
Get involved and vote.
you may vote to your heart’s content but you vote within a paradigm that is governed by the banking elite and corporations. they control the outcomes. working to make fundamental changes within the current paradigm will remain futile, but propaganda will continue to strive to make people believe their vote counts to give the illusion of having a choice where no choice exists.
Bingo. Americans seem to be in deep denial about this.
I often forget how stupid humans have gotten.
Allow me to clarify my last statement:
I do hope people will start asking why, and stop believing they have all of the answers, especially to questions they don’t even ask.
You are not in Obama’s head, and he is not in yours. So how can you know the answer to why someone would make a decision? The ONLY way to understand why a person made a specific decision (in this case, to lie), is to understand the process of how decisions are made by all humans. If you can come to understand how all decisions are made, you can understand why a single decision was made, can’t you?
And Lawrence Kohlberg studied this question and came up with a suite of theories which does logically explain the process in a manner we so far believe is sufficient to allow one to understand a decision made by anyone.
So, to answer why Obama lied, for example, you need only understand the reasoning behind the decision; which is moral reasoning. And if you understood moral reasoning sufficiently, you would understand that it was not even used in making that decision. It is quite obvious that a lie of that nature would be found out. So why did Obama lie? Because he is a psychopath, incapable of making a moral decision because he is incapable of caring about another single human being.
Now, here you are saying that the world’s problem is that we have not embraced some form of government. When the specific problem here is that our elected leader is patently incapable of leading. I would tend to disagree, quite strongly, as strongly as possible in fact, that representative democracy has failed. I would say more accurately that people have failed to understand that putting a person in a position of leadership who is patently incapable of leading because of disease would be a failure of people to think, not a failure of a system.
And if you would actually read through the Wikipedia article, you will find that, guess what…a democracy cannot function unless the people in the society reason at post-conventional levels.
And if you then came to understand the article and what moral reasoning is, you might also observe that OUR PARTICULAR FORM of representative democracy cannot work because of the legal theory we installed in the system; which effectively discourages moral reasoning by eliminating the need for people to make moral decisions. Their decisions are cataloged and codified in law, so why make them?
Representative Democracy isn’t a failure my friend, Humanity is.
Because that’s their role? They can’t go around admitting that they support oppressive regimes subservient to the US because that’s how global dominance and hegemony is achieved. They couldn’t possibly admit that they only care about what happens in Venezuela or Syria because the governments there are disobedient and impertinent. In Venezuela, particularly, they have to absolutely do everything in their power to see that government fail. They can’t possibly allow an anti-elite anti-imperialistic model to succeed anywhere, let alone in their back yard and in a fairly big country.
Thank you for this Glenn.
It’s so important for us to continue to point these hypocrisies out…As soon as the insincerity ends the US can once again be loved and respected by the world. The people and the country are so powerful. The only real threat the US faces are the international elite that will not give up their power over US foreign relations.
This is the part that really bothers me…..These horrible people will try and try through all kinds of sick deception to make the citizens of the US pay for wanting peace…1). Because it not profitable for them and 2). Peace brings Liberty to the people and less power for them.
So true.
Concur.
I can understand that Europe is scared, especially Eastern Europe,…but they have had plenty of time since WWII, to found a security structure that wasn’t founded on the whims of the US and Russia, they need to back up their post-war principles with real reforms, energy reforms, privacy reforms, defence reforms.
Glenn, obviously Saudi Arabia is full of oil, and the monarchy has wads of cash to buy expensive weapons…and that is what it is about…for the US, continued stable energy supply, and arms sales.
That US commentators can get away with talking about Saudi Arabia and its US relationship, without having the US papers bring this up, …in the same way that Obama can rewrite the history of the Iraq invasion, in which many more people died than have died in Crimea…is a testament to the continued failures of established American news organizations.
Even as the Iraq invasion was being contemplated, even before Bush and Blair bypassed the UN’s lack of support, and went ahead anyway, critics were questioning their rationale for it. And as predicted, the precedent of abusing international law, to achieve short term economic gain, for the Haliburton CEO and a small minority, has now been thrown back in the face of the US president by Putin.
Europe stood on its hands, at best, when America invaded Grenada, Iraq, Afghanistan…threatened North Korea, Iran with nuclear war, bombed Libya into its present state, going well beyond the humanitarian mandate. And now there is zero trust between Russia and America on Syria, and Crimea? Well…maybe Russia will agree to give up its base there when America gives up Pearl Harbour??? How did America acquire Hawaii, by the way? Was it a peaceful takeover??? …but now, after Bush laughed off international law concerns about invasions and torture…suddenly Russia, according to Obama, must obey the law??? The emperor has no clothes.
“Obama can rewrite the history of the Iraq invasion, in which many more people died than have died in Crimea.”
Understatement of the century.
Two things about Saudi and it’s oil.
Canada is the largest supplier of US oil and has the second largest proven oil reserves.
The United States, due to fracking has unlocked truly vast supplies of oil within it’s own territories.
So why all the love for the AQ lovin, women abusing, terrorism supporting POS Saudis? Why?
Do you know where your oil comes from?
http://bit.ly/1f23ZEM
US surges past Saudi to become the world’s largest oil supplier
http://reut.rs/1f244Ik
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-27/obama-visits-saudi-king-as-u-s-oil-boom-shifts-alliance.html
Beautifully done, Glenn. Keep underscoring the utter contempt these people have for the general population’s ability to suss out the truth.
Seconded.
Follow the money. The plutocrats that elect US sock puppets make money from some Middle Eastern dictators; those they support. The plutocrats that elect US sock puppets make money (the arms trade) from denouncing other Middle East dictators and Putin. I don’t think capitalism is the right word. Why don’t we call it what it is: fascism dressed up as democracy?
Would the US be much better than Venezuela about dealing with meaningful opposition demonstrations? I wonder about stuff like that. During the Occupy protests, many demonstrators were killed. Lots were arrested, of course. There’s evidence that the FBI considered Occupy a terrorist movement and/or a national security threat. What if the US faced demonstrations with an actual chance of toppling the government?
As to jailing anti-establishment figures, Jill Stein was arrested for “blocking traffic.” What if she had been involved in a violent demonstration that included arson and possible killings?
What would be the outcome in the US if demonstrators used some of the stuff they routinely use in other countries, like Molotov bombs?
I know what would happen… Victoria Nuland, John McCain, Chris Murphy and Michael McFaul would all come to support the protests!
Jose, I don’t recall any Occupy demonstrators being “killed”. There were countrywide police abuses, as well as the brutality of the NYPD and Oakland PD, but I don’t think anyone died in the protests.
Can you provide a credible link?
I didn’t know about this myself until a few days ago when someone mentioned it. That’s how the media works: If a demonstrator dies in Venezuela, you’ll know it right away.
http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Man-shot-to-death-near-Occupy-Oakland-camp-2323585.php
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/world/52895512-68/oakland-occupy-encampment-camp.html.csp
Of course, these are all unresolved deaths, but so are most of the ones in Venezuela.
Jose, you weren’t lying when you said your post was held back.
I have encountered the same problem too on The Intercept. Your post was at 12:19 pm and it appeared at 3:23 pm.
I knew about the day or the day after it happened. And the persons involved were not “demonstrators.” It was widely reported, and then widely discussed about how it was being used by Oakland’s Mayor and other people in power who were trying to crush Occupy as a propaganda piece to connect to Occupy. I’m not going to revisit it all, but just look at how the piece reads. A bunch of yapping power fucks doing a kind of “I told you so” line of crap. It was a murder that happened in Oakland, same as so many other tragic murders that happen in Oakland an other cities.
I second Kitt’s motion.
While there were thousands of arrests, I don’t recall any Occupy demonstrators being killed by police. Not for lack of trying, of course, as was witnessed by the shooting of Scott Olsen in the head with a bean bag projectile by an Oakland cop, and many more more potentially life threatening attacks by police. But still, I don’t recall any actually being killed. Where are you getting that information from?
I didn’t say they were killed by police. Demonstrators were killed by unknown persons — which is usually what happens when demonstrators are killed anywhere in the world.
Who, when, by whom, how many, how do you know and know about the “unknown person(s)?
You can’t seriously make claims like that expecting them to be taken as fact. If there ever was a comment in need of verification, yours is one. Also, what are you getting at? Are you implying that the “unknown persons” were affiliated with FBI, CIA or some other government agency? Or are you relating about “many” accidental or non-connected deaths? If you can expound upon your statement, “Many demonstrators were killed,” please do.
I second Kitt’s motion.
I’m not getting at anything in particular. When deaths of demonstrators in Venezuela are reported, are the perpetrators known? Generally, no. (In a few cases where they are known, they have been arrested and prosecuted.) Does anyone know who killed the demonstrators in the Ukraine? No. There are only suppositions.
Should I apply a different standard to the US? You know, being an exceptional country and all.
Absolutely. The FBI allied with corporations and other police agencies targeted Occupy to disrupt and derail First Amendment activity. It was outrageous.
But I am unaware of any deaths.
I second Mona’s motion, and ask that Jose either provide links to back up his previous claims or discontinue engaging in erroneous rumor spreading, whether intentional or unintentional.
I did post links in the first comment that asked for sources. The comment was caught by the spam filter, presumably.
You can go to the Wikipedia article on Occupy, look at the box on the right. It lists Arrests, Injuries and Deaths. Many of the references are broken links now, but you can google the headings.
That’s up to you. I didn’t ask you anything about that. I asked you to please verify the following statement:
motion sustained. Jose?
Sustained and answered above.
How is making this point:
That’s far too common to be noteworthy (if you oppose the war in Iraq, you are pro-Saddam; if you oppose intervention in Libya, you love Ghaddafi, if you oppose US involvement in Ukraine, you’re a shill for Putin, etc. etc.).
different from your doing this in your closing?:
If you want to justify all of this by cynically arguing that it benefits the US to support repressive and brutal tyrannies, go ahead. At least that’s an honest posture. But don’t run around acting as though the US is some sort of stalwart opponent of political repression and human rights violations when the exact opposite is so plainly true. And if you’re someone who has worked extensively to provide the world’s worst regimes with all sorts of vital support, don’t hold yourself out as the leader of the mob condemning others for expressing support for far more benign governments.
???
Patrick Cockburn has just finished a 5 part series on Al Qaeda in The Independent
He points out that Bandar Bush is supporting Al Qaeda in Syria and the Al Qaeda is stronger now than they were in 2001.
He is sponsored for about 40 minutes on democracynow.org
video and transcript
http://www.democracynow.org/2014/3/26/obama_to_visit_saudi_arabia_key
Patrick Cockburn, Middle East correspondent for The Independent. He’s just concluded a five-part series on the resurgence of al-Qaeda, including a piece titled “Is Saudi Arabia Regretting Its Support for Terrorism?”
It was a 2 part series on the same day, Wed, and I am not sure that this link gets to both segments. One might have to look around to make sure. Have not read the 5 part series.
I do think post Snowden and post Syria that more average Americans are starting to awaken to the great deception that our government and media are sponsoring. The age of the internet makes it much harder to hide their hypocrisy, things live on forever and can be referenced. Until the NSA unleashes some sort of memory hole like in “1984” that is.
Agreed, which is why the internet needs to be controlled by these people. I’ve said it before in comments that I don’t think there is yet a big enough percentage of Americans (I think the world at large is aware, but not Americans) who understand exactly what it took for America to build dominance and what it takes to continue. This is why a Comedian like Russell Brand can get so much attention when he speaks… he connects some of these dots. Yers, people are hurting economically, but THAT’S not the end of the issue. Yes, we bomb people and jail people indiscriminately, but THAT’S not the end of the issue either. The only way our brand of capitalism works is to prop it up with propaganda, aggressive police state type tactics domestically, and criminal, imperial war mongering abroad to steal resources. That’s the issue. It’s how America became a powerhouse and how it continues to remain strong. “War is a racket”.
I agree with everything you said, except for perhaps the thing about Russell Brand (we all have our personal tastes, as well as allergies… I am allergic to celebrity). And, yes, “War is a Racket” (Semdley Butler ™ ® ? ™). However, I would just like to say that war freed the slaves, so we should not lump all wars together. Perhaps the demarcation line is between wars for domination and wars for liberation. I think this is an interesting debate, and of course for historical purposes because I am a pacifist :)
I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said…and re: celebrity, well, like my experience with most people, i take some parts and leave others. I tend to shrink from the woo-couched philosophy :—)
hahaha fair enough!
Here is a song to enjoy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wro3bqi4Eb8
That tune is tight ….
I don’t know if it’s ever been discussed in polite circles,if war was absolutely necessary to free the slaves?(Prior to Lincolns election)
See Official Secrets Act coverup of the Saudi Anglo BAE-al Yamamah arms deal kickback for instance.
U.S. self-righteousness comes at a great expense these days. Look at what we have to close our eyes to in order to get that shiny fluffy feeling that we are the world’s Number One Do-Gooders.
I’m surprised you did not mention why the U.S. supports Saudi Arabia – oil. It is our life-blood, and will be for decades upon decades to come. We will do anything to ensure that our supplier stays on our side, able to provide US the continuous ‘fix’. This will not end until big oil is defeated, if at all possible, and alternatives are taken seriously.
There’s that, but it’s not the main thing. The US will support any government that is friendly and subservient to the US, no matter what. The media will largely leave such regimes alone. It’s as simple as that. If North Korea were subservient to the US, and having the same exact human rights record it now has, the US government would be quite supportive of it.
truth is beautiful to read even when it’s ugly
There`s one point in this article I find contentious.
George Galloway often gets let off the hook by left leaning voices for his obvious support of tyranny, since he is so anti-western that people are willing to ignore it. What makes Galloway different is that he is not in a position where there is any serious pressure on him to support tyrants, yet does so anyway. The Prime Minister of Britain on the other hand, always will have that pressure upon them, since various tyrannies are “allies” of the country (which obviously is not a good thing). Having said that, I do not think it bothers Cameron in the least to cosy up to tyrants, and Tony Blair is making plenty of money from them. But Galloway does distinguish himself among many (but not all) of his peers, by seeming to actually prefer tyrannies to democracy.
I will just add that I do not mean for my comment to be seen to say that Cameron`s statement was justified, as Glenn Greenwald correctly pointed it is very hypocritical. It was to highlight how Galloway is often treated softly by left wing voices despite him being so obviously anti-democratic and publicly dishonest.
Then why did you make excuses for Cameron???
Really? It’s OK for Cameron and Blair, because of the ‘serious pressure’? BUT Galloway…?
Hi Nete, I did not ever say it was “OK”. I merely pointed that the more senior a position a politician rises to, the more compromised and corrupted they are by it. Galloway is in a minor position, in a minor party, and yet still chooses to support tyrants. I am not comparing him to Cameron, I am comparing him to other backbench MPs who have more principles. One can choose to ignore these realities, but they exist. It is not only hypocrisy to fail to point out that just as Cameron supports tyrants, so does Galloway, and both should be equally discredited for doing so. Anything less I consider a direct support of despotism.
He has principles, he simply does not share your world view.
Which brutal dictators does Galloway support?
Exactly what I am talking about. Do you seriously not know?
Start with his vociferously supported for Bashar al-Assad perhaps.
Do you seriously not know?
I’m sorry, but why not treat that as a serious question instead of assuming disingenuousness from the start? Is it really so hard to understand that folks from anywhere other than GB might not be aware of Galloways entire history?
Can you, instead, give us some links in support of your contention that will help us educate ourselves?
I know I would appreciate that as I am not as informed of Mr. Galloway’s entire panoply of positions as I might be. It’s very easy to get mired in one’s own country’s muck – as busy as our lives our and as myopic as it might seem to want to tidy one’s own house before poking brooms elsewhere – but you are correct to note this. Thank you.
You say ‘support’ for Assad. First, provide a link. Second, is he ‘supporting’ Assad, or is he defending Assad’s right to territorial sovereignty?
If you think this is nonsense I will ask you – Do you think it is justifiable for every ‘democracy’ in the world to invade ‘non-democracies’? You see how this question really takes the burden off of the legality of war post-WWII?
Finally, does the concept ‘democracy’ have a universally recognized definition, or is ‘democracy’ culturally relative, or are there aspects of both that we should distinguish?
“You say ‘support’ for Assad. First, provide a link. Second, is he ‘supporting’ Assad, or is he defending Assad’s right to territorial sovereignty?”
Seriously great point!!!! This needs to be repeated everywhere.
Thank you, JLS.
You know… as a friend of humanity I try to do my thing. Here is a song for your kind comment:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYyzBbWPV5w
1. Here is the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRdF-W9wfFU
2. He is supporting Bashar al-Assad.
Dom Aversano, I stand corrected.
It does appear from this 56 second clip that Galloway supports Assad in his fight against invading forces. Does this equate to support for Assad’s governance?
Okay if calling him “quite a man” is not enough is:
“(a) breath of fresh air”
“(the) last Arab leader”
Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4451848.stm
Some more evidence: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMWJlDo2wn4 & https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upZYfQ2s8TI
Once again, you have proved my point precisely. I doubt the dead peaceful protesters would appreciate your playing dumb.
And as for this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upZYfQ2s8TI
Again, thanks for illustrating my point precisely.
Exactly. As an example, I don’t know much about what Libya’s system of government was like under Gaddafi, beyond what’s generally assumed. I don’t know if Libyans generally supported him or not. You could say I “supported” him in being opposed to US “humanitarian” intervention of Libya. It doesn’t mean I supported his rule, because for one, I don’t know enough about it to be able to truthfully judge it, and propaganda is not enough.
If you had watched the video you would know that Galloway is no supporter of Assad. He said that Assad was a very bad man, just not a mad one. The west was desperate for their war and Galloway was a huge part in putting a stop to that. I wonder how many innocent lives that saved?
Here is the link, he does not support Assad at all! he also does not support cameron war mongering and the UKs funding of Syrian terrorism. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AgxzpQrqSkg sorry if that hurts a few hard right wingers and astroturfers hanging out here today, but they always like to take swipes at Galloway.
Again you prove my point precisely.
This shows what you just wrote (“Galloway is no supporter of Assad”) is completely false: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRdF-W9wfFU
Just what is it about Syria,it’s govt,its people that gets your panties in a wad about?The Opthmologist(sic)was sort of thrust into brutality(war is brutal)by the machinations of the Alciada,and Mossad in my minds eye,but might be a thought too far for you.Are you an Israeli?Good neighbor Sam?Boy,I keep waiting for Israel to be that light unto nations instead of a black hole.And then,nirvana.Galloway just recognizes the hypocrisy of Zusa, which you don’t wish to face,or want to reveal.
To summarize:
Yes, he’s a vicious murdering psychopath- but he’s OUR vicious murdering psychopath!
And I see no contradiction whatsoever…
And yet, they get away with it. The large majority of citizens in the US (and probably Britain) either are ignorant of or don’t care about the contradictions between rhetoric and actions. Oil, for the most part, is the name of the game. How will we ever be able to change that dynamic?
Slowly, by relentlessly bringing these untenable contradictions into the light.
By any sane understanding the enemy in the war on terror is Saudi. Indeed I see it as proof the country who provides the funding and literature to fuel jihad is the one country the US fellates as this not being about Terror at all. A game even? I leave the reasons for others to speculate on.
It truly makes no sense.
Bandar Bush. Say no more.
Oh yeah sure,one of those hermit kingdoms,no nukes,no history of aggression towards the west etc.Yeah,the general populace hate US,see 9-11,(can’t blame them either)but I don’t believe the leadership there are anything but toadies to US and now Israel.As an American,at this point in time,I could give two poopies about their domestic policies,as America is so f*cked at the moment any fingerpointing is ludicrous speed moments.