Over the last 40 years, the U.S. government has relied on extreme fear-mongering to demonize transparency. In sum, every time an unwanted whistleblower steps forward, we are treated to the same messaging: You’re all going to die because of these leakers and the journalists who publish their disclosures! Lest you think that’s hyperbole, consider this headline from last week based on an interview with outgoing NSA chief Keith Alexander:
The NSA engages in this fear-mongering not only publicly but also privately. As part of its efforts to persuade news organizations not to publish newsworthy stories from Snowden materials, its representatives constantly say the same thing: If you publish what we’re doing, it will endanger lives, including NSA personnel, by making people angry about what we’re doing in their countries and want to attack us.
But whenever it suits the agency to do so–meaning when it wants to propagandize on its own behalf–the NSA casually discloses even its most top secret activities in the very countries where such retaliation is most likely. Anonymous ex-officials boasted to the Washington Post last July in detail about the role the agency plays in helping kill people by drones. The Post dutifully headlined its story: “NSA Growth Fueled by Need to Target Terrorists.”
And now, Keith Alexander’s long-time deputy just fed one of the most pro-NSA reporters in the country, the Los Angeles Times‘ Ken Dilanian, some extraordinarily sensitive, top secret information about NSA activities in Iraq, which the Times published in an article that reads exactly like an NSA commercial:
FT. MEADE, Md. — In nearly nine years as head of the nation’s largest intelligence agency, Gen. Keith Alexander presided over a vast expansion of digital spying, acquiring information in a volume his predecessors would have found unimaginable.
In Iraq, for example, the National Security Agency went from intercepting only about half of enemy signals and taking hours to process them to being able to collect, sort and make available every Iraqi email, text message and phone-location signal in real time, said John “Chris” Inglis, who recently retired as the NSA’s top civilian.
The overhaul, which Alexander ordered shortly after taking leadership of the agency in August 2005, enabled U.S. ground commanders to find out when an insurgent leader had turned on his cellphone, where he was and whom he was calling.
“Absolutely invaluable,” retired Gen. David H. Petraeus, the former U.S. commander in Iraq, said in an interview as he described the NSA’s efforts, which led to the dismantling of networks devoted to burying roadside bombs.
John “Chris” Inglis just revealed to the world that the NSA was–is?–intercepting every single email, text message, and phone-location signal in real time for the entire country of Iraq. Obviously, the fact that the NSA has this capability, and used it, is Top Secret. What authority did Chris Inglis have to disclose this? Should a Department of Justice leak investigation be commenced? The Post, last July, described Alexander’s “collect-it-all” mission in Iraq which then morphed into his approach on U.S. soil (“For NSA chief, terrorist threat drives passion to ‘collect it all,’ observers say”), but did not confirm the full-scale collection capabilities the NSA had actually developed.
What makes this morning’s disclosure most remarkable is what happened with last week’s Washington Post report on the MYSTIC program, which, said the Post, provides “comprehensive metadata access and content” for entire countries where it is used. The agency “has built a surveillance system capable of recording ‘100 percent’ of a foreign country’s telephone calls, enabling the agency to rewind and review conversations as long as a month after they take place,” reported the Post.
The program, noted the Post, has been in use in one country since 2011, and “planning documents two years later anticipated similar operations elsewhere.” Specifically, the fiscal year 2013 intelligence budget identified “five more countries” in which the agency planned to implement the system.
The Post did not report the names of any of those five countries, nor did it name the one where MYSTIC is already operational. Instead, “at the request of U.S. officials, the Washington Post is withholding details that could be used to identify the country where the system is being employed or other countries where its use was envisioned.” The paper posted a short excerpt from the budget document’s discussion of MYSTIC but withheld and redacted the passages that revealed the names of these countries.
A primary argument NSA typically makes in such cases is that disclosure would endanger the lives of NSA personnel by inviting retaliation from people in those countries who might become angry when learning that their calls are being intercepted en masse. From the Post article: “NSA spokeswoman Vanee Vines, in an e-mailed statement, said that ‘continuous and selective reporting of specific techniques and tools used for legitimate U.S. foreign intelligence activities is highly detrimental to the national security of the United States and of our allies, and places at risk those we are sworn to protect.'”
Leave aside how corrupted this rationale is: It would mean that no bad acts of the U.S. government should ever be reported, lest those disclosures make people angry and want to attack government agents. Indeed, that is the rationale that the Obama administration used to protect evidence of Bush-era torture from disclosure (to disclose torture photos, Obama said, “would be to further inflame anti-American opinion and to put our troops in greater danger”).
What is so extraordinary is that the NSA–at exactly the same time it is telling news organizations that disclosing its collect-it-all activities will endanger its personnel–runs to its favorite L.A. Times reporter and does exactly that, for no reason other than to make itself look good and to justify these activities. (“‘Absolutely invaluable,’ retired Gen. David H. Petraeus, the former U.S. commander in Iraq, said.”)
This demonstrates how brazenly the NSA manipulates and exploits the consultation process in which media outlets are forced (mostly by legal considerations) to engage prior to publication of Top Secret documents: They’ll claim with no evidence that a story they don’t want published will “endanger lives,” but then go and disclose something even more sensitive if they think doing so scores them a propaganda coup. It also highlights how cynical and frivolous are their claims that whistleblowers and journalists Endanger National Security™ by reporting incriminating information about their activities which they have hidden, given how casually and frequently they disclose Top Secret information for no reason other than to advance their own PR interests. It’s the dynamic whereby the same administration that has prosecuted more leakers than all prior administrations combined freely leaks classified information to make Obama look tough or to help produce a pre-election hagiography film.
Thus, writes the L.A. Times:
Thanks to Edward Snowden, a former NSA contractor, the world came to know many of the agency’s most carefully guarded secrets.
Actually, in this case, the NSA’s “most carefully guarded secrets” were spilled thanks to Chris Inglis and the paper’s own Ken Dilanian. But because the purpose was to serve the NSA’s interests and to propagandize the public, none of the people who pretend to object to leaks–when they shine light on the bad acts of the most powerful officials–will utter a peep of protest. That’s because, as always, secrecy designations and condemnations of leaks are about shielding those officials from scrutiny and embarrassment, not any legitimate considerations of national security or any of the other ostensible purposes.


hi, this is a really interesting article
hi, this is such a great article
Thank you Pierre, Glenn et al for putting this thing together. Let me know if you need help, I’m an actual lapsed journalist who wouldn’t mind doing something real again. Here’s a link to an overlong piece I did (paid for by a grant from the Nation Institute) about toxic waste dumping, politics and the garbage mob: http://hvchronic.com/adventures-in-patakistan-toxic-waste-dumping-politics-and-the-mob-in-upstate-new-york/
Anyway, as a journalist, my moral compass and a nagging pile of whistleblowing information kept pointing me back to environmental issues. Chasing toxic waste dumpers and getting threatened by mobsters eventually wore me out, however, along with the realization that nothing I did changed a thing in the long run, even though I got a few factories closed and a few people in temporary trouble. While the moral compass still points squarely at the reality that we’re committing mass suicide, I’ve reverted to an earlier modality and am meeting my societal obligations with music. With that, here’s an anthem for anyone who loves what this country could have been and is pissed at what’s happening to it. Scream your anger!!! https://soundcloud.com/biff-thuringer/to-america
“NSA Gen. Keith Alexander says future Snowden leaks could lead to deaths”
And a top researcher says underwear can kill you. It’s TRUE!
You just DIE!
thanks Glenn for this story…..sounds normal for the NSA and other Government organs…..it’s all OK when THEY do the revealing….selective revealing used to glorify their role to the public….but when it’s the truth, which doesn’t make them look so good, it’s a crime….
what a bunch of absolute Hypocrites…entitled, arrogant, bullying hypocrites….that’s the NSA for you, right from the top on down to the operatives….
@El B–this blog is now so long it takes my slow computer a month to scroll to the bottom….I was wondering if you’ve made progress (CV/cover letter/discovery of the missing $$$…whether or not any progress has been made on those fronts…what about the repealing of the stealing act (16th amendment allowed US to withold income tax http://www.opencongress.org/bill/hjres104-113/show
here’s hoping someone notiices that no significant power shifts will occur until we have more control over the $$$$–>
Accountants disabled-their minds with bad storage?
Computers and calculators get blamed for the carnage!
Actuaries give in to the stiff-armed tactics,
Of the mafias and mayors and the other addicts
Of power and influence so enamored,
Those leaders say, “we won’t be detoured!”
Unsuspecting, complicit what does it matter?
No money comes out when the piggy banks shatter!
No one keeps track, the records are hidden,
TVs, computers and radios are driven,
By the news of today: LIES coupled with HATE,
As society continues to shop and disintegrate!
Get a job with government if you don’t want to work,
And if they force you just use workers’ comp as a perk,
the Bewilderness is okay as long as I can pay the carrying charges
Bill of Rights? What do you think 5-Eyes is for?
To side-step Bill of Rights?
If you can’t spy on your own people, it helps to have five friends who can. You can tell everyone “Yo dudes we are like totally owning every communication in Iraq to keep you safe from the terrorists, bro!”, while quietly continuing to spy on everyone in your country via your 5 pals. When someone spills the beans, heck you need to keep everyone distracted by knocking over the sauce.
And remember kids… * Don’t Feed the Trolls! * …it just makes them poop more.
After all this how can anyone believe the GEN. ALEXANDER Rumsfeld little boy, Nation of Secrets is a Nation of liars soon to become killers. USA military suicides is KARMA what you do to others you do to yourself. OR, what goes around comes around and it is, coming your way America KARMA domestic drones next.
@ALL–imagne my surprise, after just having suggested that the entire system is rigged, to run across this article—> http://charleshughsmith.blogspot.com/2014/04/its-not-just-stock-market-thats-rigged.html
I’ve been following Michael Lewis’s story with great interest. As with the NSA revelations, the current brouhaha over CIA “disclosures,” etc. the only marvel is that people are surprised, which isn’t to say it isn’t important that they happen, but this is truly a case of the Emperor Has No Clothes syndrome.
If it’s strange that people didn’t notice the nude despot in their midst before the revelations, it’s ten times stranger and more dangerous that once someone points it out, it still goes unremarked. Will Wall Street change anything in the wake of these disclosures? At least the Canadian broker who figured out what was happening has opened a brokerage firm that refuses to play that game, but what about the brokers who made a killing and are happy to continue? Will anyone be held responsible for gaming the system, spying, or torturing? It doesn’t seem likely.
It must drive Snowden half-mad to see how little has been done in the wake of his whistle- blowing.
@minions- too many people are ‘in on it’…the people who aren’t ‘in on it’ are too busy working/raising families….others are oblivious…and then there are the folk mentioned here–>
Pay Our Pensions Or We’ll Throw You in Jail: the Legalization of Looting
Read more at http://www.maxkeiser.com/2014/03/pay-our-pensions-or-well-throw-you-in-jail-the-legalization-of-looting/#36eR8vmXLzl4FXEA.99 (state and local government employees/community activists??? and the guy/gal next door???
Snowden looks pretty happy here–> https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/03/31/nsa-worlds-blows-top-secret-program/#comment-20787
OOPS wrong link above here’s the right one–> http://news.yahoo.com/snowden-greenwald-urge-caution-wider-government-monitoring-amnesty-002855883.html
To eavesdrop on others is a form of primitive behavior, which is in contrast to the information world and civilized development of today’s people.
NSA can best be compared to a village simpleton who lacks ability to associate in its environment.
This explains that they consider the world and its expression as dangerous, as something unknown by definition always arouses special attention.
NSA could be described as an inferiority complex in the world format that is flaunted by one person only. This fact puts the NSA phenomenon in relief. NSA is worth less than the importance of one healthy person.
It is completely ridiculous to keep a secret in an information world
One of my reply posts showed up after some time. How encouraging.
But it is now shuffled back, into the pack where few will read it.
I emailed the intercept weeks ago as was suggested to me by one of the reporters informing the Intercept of problems. No answer so I sent another email. Still no answer.
Pretty piss poor effort oh open and transparent ones.
Lets see if a straight forward post can stick to head of this thread.
I would like to know who does the moderation here.
Simple enough question.
Glenn Greenwald does content moderation, at least for his articles.
If the number of my replies, which seem to be in the TI canal waiting to be birthed, are any indication of the growing popularity and traffic to this website – then I am sitting patiently in the waiting room for good news to follow. Especially given the many new commenters I am enjoying reading and commenting to … in spite of any minor delays in our conversations.
Anyone who has any experience with launching a tech exchange knows – and expects – there will be hiccups. There will be uncomfortable and cringeworthy gaffes – to be sure. It happens – every – time. But I am also confident that everyone over at TI are likely working overtime to address and correct the issues with attention to priorities and thoughtful care to keep the situation from getting worse. There are probably pizza boxes and cups or cold coffee and flat soda strung about everywhere. My guess is much angst and frustration are turning more than a few hairs grey. I presume many of these computer “geeks” are spending combined and countless hours sleepless and away from their families – just to isolate the problem and work out a fix. To the tekkies working to solve these issues – I know yours is usually and overlooked and thankless job. Not by me. Thank you for all that you are doing to resolve these issues.
Patience please – dear readers. This is no different than childbirth. And trust me … when this baby is born and bouncing – none of you will remember these minor technical difficulties. In fact, we’ll all probably laugh about how worked up we all got … preferably with a cigar … a shot of something cold … and pats on the back for a job well done. No worries Team TI … you got this!
Tourrettes fingertips or Freudian slip? “strug” about = strewn about… people ARE all strung out on this topic. For myself … my posts just magically {POOF} appeared within the last hour or so (but I wasn’t keeping a stopwatch of how long they were delayed). So either I’ve proven my point -or-some tech god/god-ess took mercy on me -or- I’m an idiot savant -or- all of the above … I’ll never tell! ;-)
Thanks Team TI. You guys are rockstars — I raise my gravatar to you today … with a lighter held high in my other hand!!!!
It makes me think something is going on with this site,
that we don’t know about.
Please, take care…
Yo, Intercept! When are you going to fix the problem of comments taking up to 41 hours to be posted? (That’s my personal record, though I submitted a comment on Monday that still hasn’t appeared.) And users regularly having to wait for link-less comments to be posted? Naturally, you’ll want to be VERY careful before allowing comments that contain links to appear on your site. SCARY world out there. HORRIBLE things can happen. But why should it take more than 24 hours for a comment with ZERO html to hit the board (as happened with a reply to me in this thread)? It took you about a week to fix a simple one-line bug that caused lines to break within words; should we expect it will take you about a year to fix this problem? Is this the way you plan to compete with Salon.com? You want to have a comment section even shittier than theirs? If so, congrats, you’re off to an excellent start.
(Killing time while waiting for the reply I submitted over an hour ago to be posted.)
It shows how little Omidyar gives a shit about the readers. He obviously can’t be bothered to cough up the money to provide a site that’s a notch above Beta Preview Word Press 1.0. And he doesn’t pay a tech to deal with it in a timely manner.
It’s not like there’s any action anyway. Scahill hasn’t posted since when? This thing began? Froomkin was on a tear for a few weeks a while back but now he’s stopped. 14 people on board and they can’t even roll out one piece per day.
It’s not like there’s any action anyway. Scahill hasn’t posted since when? This thing began? Froomkin was on a tear for a few weeks a while back but now he’s stopped. 14 people on board and they can’t even roll out one piece per day.
Greenwald has repeatedly said this is a place-holder site just to get NSA stories up. (I think Scahill’s only appearance was on an NSA story.)
For good or for ill, that’s just how it is. Presumably, much changes in a few months.
Oops. My formatting didn’t indicate that my first graf was a quote of Oboe.
No argument from me. The commenting software here sucks boil pus.
I’ve lost several comments to a message that advises me: “You’ve already posted that,” when in fact I had not.
Sometimes I get my comment to appear by clicking refresh a few times. Whether others also see it, I have no idea.
That all said, this site is very temporary. It will move to a large, presumably fancy First Look site with all the proper IT bells and whistles. I think in a few months.
The entire site might be a few months yet in the making, but I’m reasonably sure that substantial improvements to just The Intercept, and the comment software of The Intercept, will be much improved long before that. My reasons for thinking that way are based on my general optimism, and also because in answer to an inquiry about it the word “shortly” was used to describe the time element of the “re-tooling.”
So here’s to hopin’ I’m right on this one.
All I’m asking, is for letters not to be in light-gray,
against a white background.
There are numerous things wrong with the ‘comments’.
but can we please start with that?
That’s probably within your control. Are you using a desktop or laptop computer? A mobile device? What browser.
@weknowtheirdream—-for years we thought the dream was simply a cop on every corner…now it seems they’d prefer 2 in every kitchen also.
At least your posts eventually show up, eventually.
If some posters are delayed then their posts sit back in the pack drawing little attention to the passing parade.
Some posters here will till you its your fault and the problem or problems are of your making and come from your end by error.
Some dreamers blame glitches.
I don’t believe in Santa Claus or coincidences, so it seems it is a ploy to stifle free speech and the free flow of exchange between the commentators.
With all the talent supposedly here and articles are at a snail pace.
Dithering, dawdling delay.
No way I will live long enough to see what are all those files Snowden risked so much to get to the people
And where have most of Glenn’s followers gone (yes, still a small hive here)?
They smell the rat and have gone to fresher sites.
I tried posting under various names and had immediate success with freedumb (the post was just a copy of Glenn’s article, nothing else) and it showed up straight away.
Something is sick here, real sick.
I would imagine there’s a manual process involved in dealing with comments trapped by the spam filter, and that’s not terribly well organized at the moment. What they should do is, first, get some really good spam filtering software. I assume there’s something like that for WordPress.
It’s been 4 days without a new article. Maybe they are working on something big, who knows. People are literally in withdrawal around here.
@Jose–comments trapped by the spam filter
what about the silly putty filter? I’ve a feeling he’s reviewing one of mine now
JM
I want my Investigative Journalism website comment content now! I live in a modern day super fast world where I want everything to happen really fast and tomorrow or the next day is just too bloody slow. I just can’t be bothered to do anything myself, I WANT A MACHINE. My comment is totally out of context anyway.
But as I was saying, having worked as a professional nerd fixing all your magic boxes, we often don’t work on the weekend. Everyone expects everything to work like clockwork, but we don’t manufacture the hardware, often rely on 3rd party software platforms which we then have to patch all the bugs for, maintain security, respond to attacks, and remove countless SPAM and vicious and/or offensive Troll comments. My mother told me never to trust anyone who uses “and/or” in a comment.
An “Independent” does not conform to one governmental model, political ideology, organized religion, educational model, or scientific theory. This is because there is always an alternative perspective when deciding for one’s own conscience. An Independent retains, at all times, freedom of thought and choice. There is a right or wrong answer to any given problem, only in the mind of the evaluating individual. Facts are always of paramount importance in weighing the outcomes of any given event or series of events.
That said, consider this information: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-iedPkmRRY(The Empire of the Cities – Inner London, Washington DC & the Vatican)
Take care on the path where you walk….regardless of which you choose.
In all sincerity, I couldn’t agree more. Independence is, by definition, antithetical, to conformity. A measure of one independence can be derived from the following behaviors:
1. The ability to reasonably weigh the legitimacy of all perspectives in absence of personal bias.
2. The ability to reasonably weigh the legitimacy of all perspectives without fear of ridicule and/or derision.
3. The ability to resist the urge to chronically respond to all legitimate challenges to ones own perspective with emotionally charged invective.
4. The ability to publicly condemn those who, in defense of their own ignorance and bias (group conformity), reflexively employ any tactic to silence all non-conforming perspectives.
5. The ability to resist the urge of adopting and parroting the insubstantial beliefs and/or rationalizations of others simply because they seemingly comport with that which we believe we know.
to name just a few…
Absolutely. Well said, both of you.
Here’s part of the poem:
This brings up a lesson for all to see,
Watch out: for conformity breeds tyranny,
A mentality that pressures outsiders with jeers,
Insiders can’t tell you they walk blindly off piers!
Now: if you’re waiting around for those jeers to be cheers,
You’ve gotten the approval of the buddies and the peers!
So you hop on the bandwagon with your first set of orders,
Hoping the master will protect your daughters!
The cyclops will grow and will turn the table,
on free speech and expression, when he is able,
“By hook or by crook, they’ll be of one mind,”
Cyclops says, “Can’t you see they are blind!”
As war is sold, we’re part of the unions,
United false prophets against all other humans,
Though they promised to use us mostly as traders,
Now we see we’ve become the invaders!
This media continues to perpetuate lies,
For government drug makers, NASA-close ties?
If we tell you that unifying bureaucratic might,
Is just one more tactic that they use for fright!
Now in this corner we see teachers trying to teach,
But the President tells us that he wants to preach,
And summon the Lord to clean up the messes,
But it seems God will wait until he confesses!
Concerning that classroom with kids trying to learn,
But the technos and experts say, “Give us a turn,
To fill them with words, SECURITY LACED
So the LOVE of this language will soon be erased!”
wow that’s really cool Jamesmmm…now you say ‘part of the poem’ could I read some more please
thanks
@Jamesmmm
Part of “the” poem?… source?
@Wilhelmina-source is Jamesmmm in 2004 I started rhyming and that’s a small part of what came out…would you care to hear more?
From the Bewilderness??
JM
“…would you care to hear more?
Yes, Just point me in the right direction.
Individuality (and independence) is a remnant from our evolutionary past, which will gradually be replaced by total conformity.
Diversity within biological populations can be thought of as an insurance policy. If a population is genetically uniform, a new pathogen, or a change in the environment could be devastating. Therefore diversity is necessary to cope with unstable environments.
In human beings, one mechanism for coping with environmental uncertainty was the development of the ability to think critically and adapt behavior to suit the new environment. However, this mechanism is inefficient – thinking is energy intensive, time consuming and prone to error. So as human beings have learned to master and control their environment (elimination of large predators, hygiene and medicine to combat disease), conformity rather than independence becomes a more useful survival trait.
Conformity allows for cooperation without the time consuming and potentially risky process of thinking or negotiation. It therefore facilitates rapid and unified response as a group. So at some point in human development, conformity will prevail.
Since the hive mind represents the future, it is probably best not to criticize it too much.
quote”Individuality (and independence) is a remnant from our evolutionary past, which will gradually be replaced by total conformity. “unquote
Only in your parallel universe of psychopaths. Btw, how did you escape Nuremberg?
Congratulations on living in a universe without psychopaths.
In my universe, I never made it to Nuremberg.
The universe is singing its song the universe is dancing along on a night like this – Blue Night at Nuremberg.
http://www.blauenacht.nuernberg.de/English
Or for the nonconformists the “Bardentreffen” – Bardentreffen is a world music and singer-songwriter festival. This years motto is “war and peace” featuring Noa from Israel – „There must be another way“.
http://www.bardentreffen.de/english-infos/
You truly have a gift for providing an illustrious counter perspective.
Sounds dreary, sir, everyone thinking and acting the same. “Conformity … a more useful survival trait.” How are we going to survive if we’re all miserable? What’s the point?
It’s funny, you make the same mistake with regard to the environment that you do with your politics. We’re doing such a fine job “mastering and controlling” it that we’re actually destroying it. And it’s the same with anything living: too much mastery and control means nothing but dreary, suffocating death.
@barncat–“How are we going to survive if we’re all miserable?”
If MSM has it’s way, many people won’t know they’re miserable. And so far, MSM has gotten it’s way all too often.
From the Bewilderness??
JM
Not necessarily. There will still be conflicts among conforming societies – and as long as humans can continue to fight each other, that will energize and inspire them.
Life is meant to be a struggle. A struggle against overwhelming odds, even if ultimately ending in failure allows us to attain an instant of nobility that transcends all other human experience. And when that struggle is not merely for our own individual welfare, but on behalf of a larger society, it amplifies that reward.
Of course, honesty compels me to admit I don’t actually believe any of that, but it seems to work on the soldiers – at least for a while.
They have all the information yet are incapable of preventing even one single attack, the NSA is without a doubt the most incompetent bunch of federal parasites the world has ever seen.
Couldn’t prevent the Boston bombing, can’t find a airliner….. NSA just the dumbest parasites in the universe.
Glenn must be writing a big story from the 10.000, no 58,000, no the 1.7 million, no the 1.7 trillion documents obtained from Snowden.
He does not waste his time dawdling on twitter, writing lengthy responses to accurate criticisms of his dithering delay in publishing to the people his access to his treasure trove of gold he sits upon like Smaug He has barely time to play with dogs or to eat. He does not write books for profit and he would have nothing to do with the hollywood scene .
As his chorus of buzzing bees jive around the hive telling all GG is God and to agree or be not a bee. To bee or not to bee is the answer not the question.
Publish it all or squeeze every dollar out of it you can GG.
a ‘correction’ from the Times: “For the record, 2:40 p.m. April 2: A previous version of this article incorrectly quoted John Inglis, the NSA’s former top civilian official, as saying that the agency had been able to acquire “every Iraqi email, text message and phone-location signal in real time.” Inglis said that the agency had acquired metadata of insurgent communications. It was other former officials who said that obtaining the messages among insurgents required the agency to acquire virtually all Iraqi communications.”
Good grief.
>”It was other former officials …
… oopsy daisy!
*That could have been awkward for Inglis if the Times hadn’t corrected the record.
I like to call President Obama and he would pick up the phone like he did when Mark Zuckerberg called. Seems, that CEOs of interntional players in business may call the president any time they like.
I like to ask him about the human and civil rights in America, and if he thinks, if he would be president, when the NSA would have done their job in a way today in the sixties, when civil activists even gave their life for a better free America.
So the worm turns.
Nemo insula est.
nemo est insula.
Ask not for whom the bell tolls, for it tolls for thee.
The death of the salesman Greenwald.
http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/2014/04/03/bfp-exclusive-and-an-oligarch-shall-lead-them-omidyar-greenwald-first-look-medias-attack-on-the-future-of-the-press/
LOL.
” Rate of release over 6 months, 132.8 pages per month, equals 436 months to release 58,000, or 36.3 years. Thus the period of release has decreased in the past month from 42 years.
That means that, judging by the current release rate, it will be another 36 years before the full scope of the NSA’s massive surveillance apparatus is actually revealed to the public.”
“I think there’s also some very serious confusion floating around here, because I heard people talk about—‘Well, he’s a lawyer.’ Well, he may be a lawyer, but Snowden is not his client. Greenwald needs to decide who the fuck he is. If he’s a lawyer, let him start practicing law. If he’s an agent, let him start making movies and get on with his life. If he’s a journalist, he needs to stop deciding what is in the best interest of the public’s right to know.”
LOL, indeed.
Is it true that Mondalek was a creative writing major?
I am loathe to even engage this because frankly I think Sibel Edmonds is fucking nuts, but didn’t she spend forever saying that she had secret information that she couldn’t reveal, and could only vaguely hint at because…she would get in trouble, or she was gagged, or in danger or something?
Did she ever get around to naming the names of the congresspersons she said were soliciting or taking bribes or whatever she was saying?
She rubbed me the wrong way from day one, but there became a point where her perpetually promised revelations never appeared, and it was obvious she had nothing.
Isn’t her real claim to fame as the whistleblower who never whistled, who just talked about how much whistling she was going to do at some point in the future?
Over the years — well before l’affair Snowden — someone in Glenn’s comments would approvingly link to a Sibel Edmonds post, sometimes asking Glenn why he never cited her. Having read some of the linked posts I quickly came to see why Glenn didn’t rely on Edmonds’ work. (Before she became rabidly anti-Glenn re: the NSA revelations, she was upset that he never cited her case as an example of the govt using the state secret privilege.)
She’s a crank who plays fast and loose with facts, and is unmoored from both reason and reasonableness.
Bzzzzzz Intruder alert!! Intruder alert!!! Legitimate inquiry threatens the ongoing viability of groupthink. Engage “fair game tactics! I repeat, engage “fair game” tactics. Bzzzzzz
My dear Marcolf. Please educate yourself by reading and comprehending the open letter AT&T/NSA whistleblower Mark Klein recently addressed to Sibel Esmonds (emphasis mine):
Again, Sibel Edmonds is a crank who wouldn’t know a fact or a reasonable conclusion if one smacked her in the ass.
My Dear Mona-matopoeia
I will not fall into to the trap that you have so deftly attempted to stage by defending the personal opinions of one legitimate whistleblower from another. The only reason that Sybil Edmonds has drawn your ire is because she dared to rely on her own unique experiences to call into question the finely scripted characterization of Snowden’s motives and actions by Glenn Greenwald. It was only subsequent to Glenn Greenwald’s Hong Kong presentation of a patriotic martyr who was headed into a self-imposed exile, that we learned Snowden had taken a job with Booz Allen Hamilton, after conferring with both Glenn Greenwald and Laura Poitras, with the specific intent of acquiring further documentary evidence of NSA wrongdoing. Reason demands that such conscious omissions be weighed when evaluating the integrity of all representations made by Glenn Greenwald concerning Snowden’s motives and actions. I wish it were not so. I would much prefer that the logical inconsistencies of a contrived narrative did not offend the basic tenants of reason so that I, in good conscience, could come to Glenn Greenwald’s aid in defense of Snowden’s actions. I would have thought no less of Snowden had it been initially revealed that , like the Raines/Forsyth 1971 burglary of an FBI office, he had engaged in an act of civil disobedience with the express intent of facilitating the greater good. What balls! However, such inconvenient facts pique reason and call into question the contrasting posture that activist/journalist Glenn Greenwald had preemptively constructed for himself as shield from potential future legal liability associated with the “time-space-journalism-continuim rift” response that invariably results when the masters of mankind are caught pissing on the back of humanity.
I quoted only that much for two reasons. 1)So that it would be clear as to what comment and commenter I am addressing. 2)To ask if you could please rephrase your comment leaving out the indecipherable blather which you must think is really bitchen writing. I ask that of you so that maybe I might have a better shot at digging out what the damned hell it is that you think you were saying.
The Elements of Style
BZZZZZ [Intruder strategy alert: when faced with undeniable facts and logic, attack style only. Repeat: Attack style only. URGENT: MAKE THIS AN ISSUE OF STYLE ONLY!!!!) BZZZZZ
You might also consider working on that thing you must think of as a sense of humor. It’s like having a mosquito buzzing in and out of the ear canal.
I’m all for hyperbole when it comes to making a valid point – but to continue to just add these ad hominem summations to the end of responses is uninformative, immature, and counterproductive.
At the risk of repeating myself:
I’ll end with the note that all too many of these journalists, filmmakers and writers would better serve their respective constituencies should they choose to work more on common goals together, rather spend all this energy on tearing each other down.
Yes, and bloggers too.
What an utter waste of resources – from all sides.
I think he’s doing the right thing. If the NSA can prove that just one person died as a result of these published documents they’ll have Snowden’s and Greenwald’s heads on a platter.
http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/04/04/how-coverage-of-the-nsa-scandals-ignores-the-obedient-cia/ as per Omidyar’s instructions…..
Interesting piece. Recommended.
Yes, I’ve heard that Omidyar is secretly in charge of planetary coverage of the NSA outrage, and that he has strictly forbidden mention of the CIA — because they help steal PEZ dispensers for his wife’s collection.
GG prolly has plans to release much more in an ever-increasing manner…
Lets hope
“… could lead to deaths.”
So what?
Why do these bozos always play the “could result in deaths” card? Do they really think we fall for that crap? Everyone in the world knows that lives are the lowest priority of the US government. Especially the lives of US citizens.
Reminds me of the moronic character played by Jack Nicholson rambling on about how important it is to save lives. “You want me on that wall. You need me on that wall.”
Give me a break.
@SKT–“Do they really think we fall for that crap?” NSA is not targeting the people who have figured it out, they’re trying to keep people from figuring it out. That’s what propaganda is all about.
Let me take this opportunity to remind everyone of just how valuable life is to the Empire:
(it’s only 20 seconds)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbIX1CP9qr4
Congrats!!
http://www.theguardian.com/media/2014/apr/03/guardian-wins-ire-investigative-reporting-nsa
Well. What a world we live. Most of us care. Most of us don’t join together to right wrongs. At least it seems.
Via twitter:
Glenn Greenwald ?@ggreenwald 5h
Put a star by this: https://twitter.com/Gorman_Siobhan/status/451755295639760897
How deep will Greenwald go? Will he, for example, tie his sugar daddy into the underlying political and economic need for global NSA surveillance? We know that NSA spying in Mexico and France helped Americans “get an upper hand in diplomatic talks and find good investment opportunities,” as reported on RT. Will Greenwald tell us which American corporations (including Omidyar’s) are profiting from NSA spying? Will he tell us how, specifically, the CIA uses NSA intercepts to manipulate political affairs in foreign nations to America’s political and economic advantage?” Will he tell us how the NSA helps the oligarchs? http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/10/22/the-nsa-provides-tech-support-for-assassinations-shocking/
You’re an absolutely horrible writer. “Glenn’s Big Adventure?” How comically childish can one’s writing be than that? What you write is not even coherent, so that doesn’t even matter. If you were writing about how Dogs love cats, or what time of year is the best time of year to watch the sunset, it would still be unreadable, because you’re an amateur quack. Counterpunch has gone further and further down into the gutter, but using your writing to promote their “I hate Greenwald” campaign is even a deeper step into the trash bin than before.
Valentine is a good writer. It would seem that you do not like his perspective so you insult his writing. I say this because your hero Glenn Greenwald does not produce artful prose in any way shape or form. He is a litigator by training and it shows in his writing. So if Valentine’s prose is bad, Greenwald’s is mega-uber-suck or something.
Valentine is correct that Greenwald never really gets to the WHY of it all. Without any analysis of our plutocratic overlords, all his stuff is kind of limited-hangout material. This is all the more problematic because as Valentine points out, Greenwald has a gazillion dollars thanks to a member of the plutocratic class that is served by the same Big Brother that Greenwald is always “exposing.” Neoliberalism and libertarianism both are evil philosophies that legitimate exploitation. Greenwald does not address this and thus he should not be considered any sort of hero or angel. At least now he is rich enough to probably not care what people think, right? Also: Gee, since when has exposing the crimes of the powerful been so lucrative?
I am still glad that Greenwald publishes this stuff. I don’t think he is Coke or Pepsi… He is more like a new flavor like Sprunk, rolled out because people are sick of Coke and Pepsi, but, uh, our overlords wouldn’t want people to stop drinking soda. By “drinking soda” I mean consuming media from sources that are ultimately dependent upon the plutocratic class that owns all the other media and has corrupted politics and instituted this neofeudal globalized economy.
I’d never heard of David Valentine until recently, and since then have spent some time reading his work.
What I come away with in the end is, for the most part, an overarching theme of hypocrisy, ad-hominem attacks, and resentment. In almost every piece critical of another journalist, filmmaker or writer, Mr. Valentine spends much more time on personality assessment rather on a reasonable critique of the message at hand.
In other words, in almost every piece that I have read, killing the messenger trumped analyzing the message.
From David Valentine’s review of one of these journalists:
“The film ends and I wonder what he could have produced if he hadn’t melodramatized and spent so much time and film on close-ups. I wonder what he could have done if he’d read a few history books.
Ultimately, the film is so devoid of historical context, and so contrived, as to render it a work of art, rather than political commentary. And as art, it is pure self-indulgence.”
This, after spending more than half of the critique, not on addressing the message, but on flailing at the messenger, as if that is how an effective refutation works.
In the end, it seems that Mr. Valentine needs more self-reflection; in that his self-indulgence with the messengers of whatever he puts under his scrutiny completely overrides the value of any conclusion’s he may have for others, and thus we as readers gain nothing that remotely approaches a compelling rebuttal.
It’s surprising to me that a well published author would go to such lengths to butcher the value of whatever position he has, simply because, in killing the messenger, he kills his message too.
I’ll end with the note that all too many of these journalists, filmmakers and writers would better serve their respective constituencies should they choose to work more on common goals together, rather spend all this energy on tearing each other down.
What an utter waste of resources – from all sides.
I’d never heard of him either until he began linking to and promoting his own stuff here. And because it turned out that he had posted that one, and I think others, on Counterpunch I decided to waste a few moments of my time reading – most of – it and then replying as you saw. The reason I brought Counterpunch into it is because Counterpunch has been posting screeds from other authors as worthless as that one by this Valentine person for the past several months about Glenn Greenwald. It would be one thing if they were posting reasonable points or whatever about Glenn Greenwald, but they haven’t been. They’ve been posting total trash; the kind of trash that is easily proven as such, so that it doesn’t serve as educational information about another side of an issue or multiple issues at all. That’s why I wrote that Valentine’s style would be just as crappy if he were writing about just about any subject.
Valentine’s critique of Scahill is that the film is too stylized and superficial and that he does not put any of these tactics into a proper historical perspective. Valentine wrote wrote what professor Alfred McCoy called the definitive book on the Phoenix Program. That book provides a much deeper look into the how and WHY of these programs. Greenwald and Scahill are both very weak when it comes to explaining WHY and putting things into historical context. The truth is more damning to the ruling class than what Greenwald and Scahill describe. Perhaps this is why they both enjoy such fame and notoriety and now wealth. They even have a cult following.
I read that person’s “critique” of Dirty Wars, the movie. It was the same sort of chest beating while tongue lashing as everything else I’ve recently read from that person. I wonder if Valentine bothered to read Dirty Wars, the book, or if that was too much to ask of the self-proclaimed history buff.
Eric, he may be correct on those points (and I agree that there needs to be a broader narrative here with this material, that will come) but that doesn’t negate that Valentine spent entirely too much time on ego-bashing, to the point that, as I said, he lost his reader (me). In the end, it just wasn’t a well-rounded, informative read.
Here is a solution to the problem that you pose. Glenn Greenwald should provide the entire set of Snowden documents to the ten Journalists that he most trusts (E.g. Gellman, Priest etc.). The only governing criteria is that none of them works for the same employer/funder. Let them each use their own discretion and resources to determine that which is news worthy. All of those who take receipt of the Snowden Documents should sign a legally binding agreement that they understand that theyalone are legally responsible for that which they choose to publish.
Greenwald has replied to this suggestion numerous times by saying that doing so could put him in legal jeopardy by enabling the government to prosecute him as a source of the documents. That’s why in every instance that he has shared documents with other news organizations (other than the Guardian or First Look), he has collaborated in the production of the stories.
The Wikipedia account of Edward Snowden states:
On May 20, 2013, Snowden flew to Hong Kong,[111][112] where he was staying when the initial articles based on the leaked documents were published,[111][113] beginning on June 5.[114][115] Within months, documents had been obtained and published by media outlets worldwide, most notably The Guardian (Britain), Der Spiegel (Germany), The Washington Post and The New York Times (US), O Globo (Brazil), Le Monde (France), and similar outlets in Sweden, Canada, Italy, Netherlands, Norway, Spain, and Australia.
From where did these media outlets obtain their documents?
@barncat
Lets assume for argument sake that in “every instance that Glenn Greenwald has shared documents with other news organizations (other than the Guardian or First Look), he has collaborated in the production of the stories.” Was the arrangement governed by contractual agreement? How are you defining the word “share.” Was Glenn Greenwald compensated for his role in each corroboration? If so, then why can’t a similar arrangement be made wherein all of the Snowden documents are “shared” with ten journalists with the stipulation that Glenn Shares the byline on each story that they choose to ultimately publish? Are you aware that these questions have been asked and sufficiently answered? If so, can you provide me with the source?
@Wilhelmina
My understanding is that, of the outfits you listed, only the Washington Post received its own cache, and it did so directly from Snowden. All of the others have published their stories in collaboration with either Greenwald or Poitras (Der Spiegal). The Guardian remains in possession of a cache because Greenwald was employed there at the time he received the docs from Snowden.
Greenwald has stated that he has collaborated with other news organizations under standard freelance agreements. And, (so,) yes, I believe in every instance he has gotten paid.
I’m defining it in opposition to “Glenn Greenwald should provide the entire set of Snowden documents to the ten Journalists that he most trusts…” It means that he only shares the documents that are used to collaborate on one or more stories.
And you think that little charade will protect him from the legal risk that concerns him?
Yes and no. I’m going from memory. (Mona is in concurrence with the first and most important point.) Your suggestion makes perfect sense, and no doubt Greenwald would have done it, or something similar, long ago if he didn’t have a very good reason other than he wants to “horde the documents” and make all the money he can off them. I don’t know if you’re one of the people making this charge, but to me it’s just ridiculous.
Btw, I’m inferring that The Guardian remains in possession of a cache of documents from the fact that it has continued to publish articles based on Snowden documents after Greenwald’s departure (example: http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/dec/20/gchq-targeted-aid-agencies-german-government-eu-commissioner). And as for why they were permitted to retain the documents after Greenwald left, I’m just assuming the reason is the one I gave. Probably should have left that out.
@Barncat
Thank you for attempting to address my concerns with a level of civility that is worthy of a like response. It appears that you, too, are unable to answer a number of the questions that I pose with any degree of certainty. I would, however, like to address a single point that you made which goes to the heart of the matter (and, please, do not make reference to that which Mona knows. I have learned from experience that she cannot be trusted):
“Your suggestion makes perfect sense, and no doubt Greenwald would have done it, or something similar, long ago if he didn’t have a very good reason other than he wants to “horde the documents” and make all the money he can off them. I don’t know if you’re one of the people making this charge, but to me it’s just ridiculous.:
In absence of a clear understanding of the short- and long-term benefits derived by Glenn Greenwald from the release of the Snowden documents, how can you characterize such concerns as “ridiculous? Do you know what his salary is? How about that which he was paid to write a book. Are you privy to the details concerning his ongoing negotiations with film studios? And how about the overall bump to his market brand? Do you actually believe that Glenn Greenwald did not take into consideration how marketable his name was when he began to negotiate his contractual arrangement with Pierre Omydar? If your commentary is a reliable indicator of your ability to think critically, then I would have to conclude that you have, at least, entertained these thoughts; reason demands that we do.
@Wilhelmina
To be honest, I have not. You say, “I have learned from experience that [Mona] cannot be trusted.” The nature of my “experience” of Greenwald is the same as yours of Mona, and the strong impression I’ve gotten is that Greenwald is eminently trustworthy. He has built his following and his reputation (his “brand”), to a significant degree, on his integrity. And I believe that is a major reason that Snowden selected Greenwald before anyone else (he used Poitras to get to Greenwald). He felt certain that Greenwald could be trusted to strictly adhere to any agreements they reached, and we see that’s exactly what Greenwald has done.
There’s no way to reason about it conclusively. It’s going to come down to trust. But as far as reason goes, I personally have seen NO evidence to support the claim that Greenwald is acting primarily with the motive of enriching himself. Firstly, we can be certain that he has represented his agreement with Snowden accurately, because Snowden has had every opportunity to correct any misstatements. So, what would you have him do, renege on the agreement with his source? It’s unthinkable! And as Greenwald has argued repeatedly, if you have a problem with the way he has handled the documents, your complaint is really with Snowden. Secondly, hasn’t the strategy that Snowden dictated been validated? Do you really think we’d be further along if Snowden had simply dumped the documents on the web? I’m sorry, but once again it just seems ridiculous to me. Make the argument if you wish (did Tarzie ever get around to it?), but it seems impossible to me.
And so, if Greenwald has been acting in a way that 1) honors the agreement with his source, and 2) maximizes the impact of the disclosures, then what reason is there to suspect that his primary motivation is other than to achieve those outcomes? I see none.
That agreement would make Greenwald a source of top secret documents, rather than a journalist. He’d be at greatly elevated legal risk by leaving the safe (relatively) harbor of journalist.
No agreement among the parties could or would bind the U.S. Department of Justice; that is, other parties cannot agree to hold Glenn harmless in any way that binds the DoJ.
“There’s no way to reason about it conclusively. It’s going to come down to trust. But as far as reason goes, I personally have seen NO evidence to support the claim that Greenwald is acting primarily with the motive of enriching himself.”
I never said that “Greenwald is acting primarily with the motive of enriching himself” in the release of the Snowden documents. I have been clear in my criticism of the fact that he is attempting to harness the Snowden revelations in way that maximizes their profit potential while endeavoring to preserve the self-serving illusion that his only purpose is to facilitate the “greater good.” In the past, I have characterized this type of duplicity as merely a form of enlightened self-interest that is, in every respect, akin to that of those in the MSM to whom he has chosen to take repeated exception.
I have also made the observation that, by his own admission, Glenn Greenwald has no binding agreement with Snowden in regard to that which gets published. That which is newsworthy (that which serves the greater good) should be published without reservation. Apropos of the foregoing, I do not believe that Glenn Greenwald should be the sole arbiter of that which serves the “greater good” as concerns for personal gain have already clouded his judgement.
You are right to conclude however that, in the final analyses, belief largely governs in whom we choose to place our trust and lend our support. I sincerely hope that future history proves that your trust was not imprudently squandered.
Are there documents and/or interviews to back up your claims? Your writing is like fiction in a short story.
“The Phoenix Directorate and SOG were engaged in widespread assassinations of low-level political cadre,”
Glenn; Many are wondering how this eBay funded enterprise can keep the promise of Revelations to come.
Can you tell me when this venture will produce fruit that assuages concern about what seems an untoward alliance?
I’m a progressive, look how smart uh am. Uh learned “Koch brothers” from reading Daily Kos or Democratic Underground or Salon. So “Koch brothers” has to be really esoteric and I’ll show everehone on the intercept how eclectic muh knowludge base is. Aren’t uh smart?
I never thought I would see the day when reveltions about the Koch brothers would be described as a form of esotericism.
The “Koch brothers.” Haven’t yuh heard? It’s all the “Koch brothers.” Look ’em up.
The “Koch brothers.” Haven’t yuh heard? It’s all the “Koch brothers.” Look ‘em up.
Errrrr…. OK. Thanks for your insights.
“I’m a progressive, look how smart uh am. Uh learned “Koch brothers” from reading Daily Kos or Democratic Underground or Salon. So “Koch brothers” has to be really esoteric and I’ll show everehone on the intercept how eclectic muh knowludge base is. Aren’t uh smart?”
Wow, thanks for the lead:
Koch Brothers Takes $88 Million in Corporate Welfare
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/03/09/1283390/-Koch-Brothers-Takes-88-Million-in-Corporate-Welfare#
You do understand the role that corporate welfare played in the formation of the “hyper state” to which you have taken noted exception?
No the hyper-State is entrenched only with a generous funding mechanism. So if I’m the Koch bros., which I’m not, which do you think I’m going to want more of: My taxes to go toward formation and maintenance of Big Government? Or far less if any of it?
“No the hyper-State is entrenched only with a generous funding mechanism. So if I’m the Koch bros., which I’m not, which do you think I’m going to want more of: My taxes to go toward formation and maintenance of Big Government? Or far less if any of it?”
I am not attempting to be rude or snarky, but the capture of government by corporate interests has been an ongoing topic of great concern for more than a century. If you truly want to understand the nature of that to which you claim that you are in opposition, then I suggest that you begin with a book authored by Justice Louis Brandeis, entitled “Other Peoples’s Money.” The book is a compilation of articles that were based on the revelations of the House of Representatives’ Pujo Committee about the predatory practices of J. P. Morgan and other big bankers. “Other People’s Money” influenced both Woodrow Wilson’s New Freedom agenda and Franklin Roosevelt’s New Deal. The PDF version of the book can be found with a simple google search.
Corporate Welfare Spoils
http://www.thenation.com/article/corporate-welfare-spoils#
Now, if you want to offer tax exemptions to me–or pork barrel projects for my state–do you think I’m going to turn them down?
If you’re concerned about that, then don’t build an apparatus that’s empowered with that authority.
This is an extremely interesting eyewitness account of that which actually transpired in Libya before, during, and in the immediate aftermath of its “freedom revolution.”
James and JoAnne Moriarty Reveal the Truth About the Libyan War
http://www.corbettreport.com/interview-849-james-and-joanne-moriarty-reveal-the-truth-about-the-libyan-war/
The progressive left will want yet another surveillance mechanism to enforce income parity.
Please post any facts and evidence to support your biased opinion, which by the way, is completely off topic.
No free riders.
Your name shall be ‘raised by beagles with fleas’. Be proud of your Lakota label. You deserve it, richly.
You appear to riding for free… as we all are. Got anything meaningful to add to the discussion?
Boy howdy, that’d be a relief! Ya think? If big shots paid their damned dues in this life, ever’ body else would do just fine, thank ya vera much.
But if’n you prove to be an elitist bastard living up in a stone castle- and we mud people get tired of dying in the road- then you have a real problem on your hands.
We’re talkin’ Hugo Chavez problems. Got that amigo?
@Doug Salzmann
In an earlier thread I posted the soundtrack of the shadow play that our local Art Activism group produced about fracking. I noted that very soon a video of it would be online. You asked that I please post the video when it appears. Thanks for asking. I appreciate that. This thread has pretty well taken its course, so since the video of the play did indeed appear on youtube as of April 1st I’m posting it now.
Hope that you and others will take a look and enjoy. A reminder: my contribution was some of the writing, one of the voices and also the playing of the harmonica and of the banjo.
“What the Frack?!” Shadow Play
Thanks, Kitt. I’ve watched the first third, now. I really like the shadow play idea, and some of the moments are excellent. I’m paying special attention to the music. ;^)
As a video, shorter clips would probably be more effective than the full-length documentary of the shadow play, but it’s nice to have it all.
I’ll make sure my anti-fracking friends see it.
Fuck me. Mike is still Wolfin’ at three hundred paragraphs and Master Summers seems to have toned down his authority worship and Wilma is still as boring as hell and Obbie the smallest flute still squeeks silly melodies.
Thanks to the rest of you. You DO know what this is, hunh?
Bzzzzz [fuck, shit, poop, independent thought…] Bzzzzz
“Thanks to the rest of you. You DO know what this is, hunh?”
Poison Hivey?
@wilhelmina–> type this into your browser (case counts)–> 1drv.ms/1d0IKhY I also have what I call a master document which, if closely adhered to, would certainly spell disaster for some huge portion of the status quo.
still in the Bewilderness
Poem: A worthwhile read by jamesmmm
https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?resid=88E5E47E9E6E7ED1!238&ithint=file%2c.doc&app=Word&wdo=2&authkey=!AN2iDtBje8NNlYs
thanks W I hope others get to see it…feel free to post it elsewhere…
BTW: weren’t there a few items that you did not get?
Just Wondering again
It’s a stale thread.
Conversation worth having will recommence when Glenn/Jeremy/someone has another post.
I hope so. I think a lot of people are afraid sudden things can happen to this blatant abuse of the fourth amendment… wait, hold on, I hear OH NO! People are coming into my house and I ….xonqa;nrew;nqf;lekn;nfnnnnnnnnnn
@Mona– Conversation worth having will recommence
alot of the discussion currently encompasses income inequality and the state’s abiity to take OPM and use it to fortify their kingdumbs…is this stale?
From the Bewilderness??
JM
I notice here and around these posts lots of folk saying that the government effectively steals from the people…does anyone here know that a senator from Oklahoma is proposing to stop all that? try wwwDOTopencongressDOTorg or see Jim Bridentsine’s (R-OK) HJ Res 104…it’s been around for awhile, but not many know about it…it’s one of the few things we can do to take back our country.
Now that the scotus has sold the government to the Koch brothers and their ilk, the 1% will be deciding whether we will continue to have total electronic surveillance. Any pretense that the rest of us will have anything to say about it is a sick joke. It could be argued that the 1% has always owned the government, but yesterday the supreme court gave them a bill of sale and they own it outright now. From now on
the electoral process is little more than entertainment.
There is an app solution:
“In her keynote speech at last year’s annual Netroots Nation gathering, Darcy Burner pitched a seemingly simple idea to the thousands of bloggers and web developers in the audience. The former Microsoft MSFT -0.85% programmer and congressional candidate proposed a smartphone app allowing shoppers to swipe barcodes to check whether conservative billionaire industrialists Charles and David Koch were behind a product on the shelves.
Burner figured the average supermarket shopper had no idea that buying Brawny paper towels, Angel Soft toilet paper or Dixie cups meant contributing cash to Koch Industries through its subsidiary Georgia-Pacific. Similarly, purchasing a pair of yoga pants containing Lycra or a Stainmaster carpet meant indirectly handing the Kochs your money (Koch Industries bought Invista, one of the world’s largest fiber and textiles companies, in 2004 from DuPont).”
For complete story:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/clareoconnor/2013/05/14/new-app-lets-you-boycott-koch-brothers-monsanto-and-more-by-scanning-your-shopping-cart/
…not to mention the tar sands oil rail transport of every progressive leftist’s favorite ice-cream eating billionaire, Warren Buffet, seen here throwing down the sigil of the progressive left’s favorite monetary policy.
I notice here and around these posts lots of folk saying that the government effectively steals from the people…does anyone here know that a senator from Oklahoma is proposing to stop all that? try wwwDOTopencongressDOTorg or see Jim Bridentsine’s (R-OK) HJ Res 104…it’s been around for awhile, but not many know about it…it’s one of the few things we can do to take back our country.
Author Naomi Klein, in her book, “No Logo” adds more to this discussion:
“For those of us who are mystified at the current penchant for self-destruction of the human species in an orgy of corporate and personal greed – aided and abetted by the ruling elite in DC who are part of the oligarchy – it is worth remembering that much of who we are as a species in the developed world is tied to brand names that reflect “aspirational identity.”
http://www.truth-out.org/buzzflash/commentary/the-fight-against-being-comodified-must-never-stop-we-are-not-brands-we-are-humans-with-souls
In the same motion they’ve also enabled George Soros, the vaccination designs of Bill Gates, the contraception and population control measures of the Rockefeller Foundation and the Ford Foundation, and fundraisers throughout Hollywood and Park Slope and Hell’s Kitchen.
It is amazing what can be accomplished when both the left and right hand work together to affect a common outcome…
@Wilhelmina “…both the left and right hand…” truly and please do not miss James Corbetts 10 minute video re: same wwwDOTcorbettreportDOTcom/mp4/bfp20140128DOTmp4
this will really make you think
Thanks, I will do that today. And give you some feedback.
Thanks for the tip on that video by James Corbett. He really nails the true nature of the false dichotomy that has been constructed to sustain the illusion of choice and that, when acted upon, only serves to perpetuate the status quo at the expense of the common man.
You might find some answers here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjPW2O2CcmM
I have been following this matter since Citizens United. The court erred, and has demonstrated its failure as an institution of justice and of support for the US Constitution.
When the US Supreme Court has failed, there is no justice, and the Constitution may as well be ripped to shreds because the Supreme Court does not respect it.
Since when does freedom have ANYTHING to do with money? What the Supreme Court has said, especially Clarence Thomas in his rather unusual step of voicing his opinion, is that freedom has a price that we must pay. You cannot have freedoms without money.
Well that’s all fine and good for you, what with your job and your ability to have one. But what about millions of disabled Americans who can’t afford to buy politicians? They don’t get free speech (that isn’t free).
There are wakeup calls happening every day around us, yet Americans continue to watch television and take what it tells them for granted: what to eat, what to take, what to wear, how to live, and how to think.
People are just earning their own fate. Sadly, they are also forcing it on those of us who try to be responsible human beings.
Assuming my comment comes up (it had links) but even if it doesn’t, I wanted to make sure I clarified that this is not about me, it is about the results of the research conducted by me, that is all, that is the distinction, and the source of misunderstanding by those who have misunderstanding.
Impatient: The links were to the story on the Associated Press about ZunZuneo. The other was a link to my comment over a week ago on the story welcoming Jordan Smith in which I suggest the Intercept investigate the possibility of precisely what is described in the ZunZuneo story.
The point is, I am not trying to impress anyone with anything. What I am trying to do is get your attention to what I have uncovered, so that you can take a look and see if you see the same things I do – including things that I see as the cause of all of our problems. By showing you I can understand things that are going on without having access to evidence of it even happening, it should demonstrate to you that I understand things, perhaps well enough that you should investigate my claims. And that’s all I ask…not to be believed, just that you investigate these things yourselves, and be aware that you shouldn’t trust anyone, especially not those who say they are taking care of you.
“By showing you I can understand things that are going on without having access to evidence of it even happening, it should demonstrate to you that I understand things, perhaps well enough that you should investigate my claims.”
Rationalist Epistemology: Plato
A rationalist epistemology claims that knowledge (as opposed to opinion) is possible only if it is based on self-evident and absolutely certain principles. Such principles are not learned through experience; instead, they are implicit in the very notion of reasoning (in Latin: ratio) itself. Sense experience cannot provide the certainty needed to guarantee that what we claim to know is true. So, like mathematicians, we have to rely on reason itself as the basis for determining whether our opinions are justified true beliefs (that is, knowledge).
http://philosophy.tamu.edu/~sdaniel/Notes/plato.html
(Cites reference chapters from Plato’s dialogues (e.g. Meno))
Plato’s educational priorities also reflected his distinct pedagogy. Challenging the Sophists–who prized rhetoric, believed in ethical and epistemological relativism, and claimed to teach “excellence”–Plato argued that training in “excellence” was meaningless without content and that knowledge was absolute, certain, and good. As a result, teachers assumed a high moral responsibility. Plato doubted whether a standard method of teaching existed for all subjects, and he argued that morally neutral education would corrupt most citizens. He preferred the dialectical method over the Sophists’ rhetorical pedagogy. For Plato, the role of the teacher was not to fill an empty reservoir with specific skills, but to encourage the student to redirect his or her soul and to rearrange the priorities within it to allow reason to rule over the irrational elements of spirit and appetite.
In the Meno, Plato examined a paradox that challenged the dialectical method of education: if one knows nothing, then how will one come to recognize knowledge when he encounters it? In response, Plato’s Socrates proposed a different idea. Through a geometry lesson with a slave boy, he attempted to demonstrate that all possessed some minimal knowledge that served as a window into one’s eternal and omniscient soul. Through dialectic, the teacher could refute the student’s false opinions until the student pursued a true opinion that survived the rigors of critical examination. Unacquainted with the storehouse of knowledge in one’s soul, a person needed to learn how to access or “recollect” it. Plato distanced himself further from the Sophists by distinguishing knowledge (eternal and certain) from opinion (unreliable and ephemeral).
Plato developed this idea more fully in the Republic, declaring knowledge superior to opinion in both an epistemological and ontological sense. Opinion reflected a misapprehension of reality, while knowledge belonged to an essential or “intelligible” realm. In particular, Plato proposed a linear hierarchy of knowledge starting with the “visible” realms of imagination and then belief, and moving to the “intelligible” realms of reason, and ultimately, knowledge. In his celebrated cave metaphor, Plato’s Socrates depicted chained prisoners, who presumed shadows of representations cast by artificial light to be real. The first step of education, then, was to turn one’s soul away from this artificial world of shadows and toward the representations of objects and ideas themselves–leading one to the realm of belief. The objects of belief, however, were still empirical, and thus, ephemeral, relative, and unreliable. Beyond the cave lay the intelligible realm of reason and knowledge. Plato asserted that ideas did not possess any physical qualities, and to ascend beyond the world of tangible objects and ideas, one needed to develop the power of abstract thinking through the use of postulates to draw conclusions about the universal essence or “form” of an object or idea. Mathematics constituted a particularly useful tool for the development of reason, as it relied heavily on logic and abstract thought. The ultimate stage of awareness for Plato was knowledge of the “form of the good”–a transcendence of all postulates and assumptions through abstract reasoning that yielded a certain and comprehensive understanding of all things.
Read more: Plato –B.C.) (427?) (347 ) – The Ideal State, The Dialectical Method, Educational Programs, The Cultivation of Morals – Knowledge, Soul, Possessed, and Philosopher – StateUniversity.com http://education.stateuniversity.com/pages/2326/Plato-427-347-B-C-E.html#ixzz2xqnnSyaI
One last observation: Plato was speaking directly to the essence of your stated claims over two thousand years ago (Born: between 429 and 423 BC).
Half of my junior class at school – me too – decided to choose ethics lessons instead of religion lessons. The idea was to get better results. The teacher was really cool. He was hanging around in the alternative lifestyle scene with some of us. One day he felt in love with a girl from school and had to go. We did not miss him that much as we all failed in understanding Plato and the cave metaphor.
Lol. Oh, sweet irony!
Feeling better after last night’s rant.
Found something that I still can’t grasp completely: Quite an important story. Quite surprised to see the Associated Press behind it, but then again, they are not a corporation; but a corporation who maintains infrasctructure for an association of independent journalists. There is potential for independence; just as there is potential for propaganda farming.
Read this story. It demonstrates the lengths that the governments will go to provide to others they want to manipulate what they will charge us out the ass for or not even provide. Damn what an awesome thing to have something like ZunZuneo here. But, we’re already controlled enough, so we don’t get such a thing.
Are we starting to get it?
Out this morning:
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_SECRET_CUBAN_TWITTER?SITE=NYMID&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
Now read what I wrote over a week ago elsewhere here. I understand what is going on. How else could I suggest a story be investigated that is factual; but is not known to anyone else. I don’t work for the Associated Press, so I am not privy to the information they have. I only have internet and library, the same access you all have. So how do I know this? I seek understanding, and I do my research. No magic, no trickery. Just taking in information, processing it, verifying it, collating it, and making sense of it. LOTS of information. It’s what I do, its my gifts. I use them to help, which is why I post comments. I didn’t go to school to be trained by this country and its economy and agenda and paradigm so I could solve the problems that the system itself is; I learned on my own, outside of the system, and thus am able to see the problems OF the system, not IN the system. There is a difference.
You’ve read the story. Now read my comment and see the results of mere simple research of publicly available information – rather than taking someone else’s word – led me to understand what was going on…of course, this assumes that you now also understand that this is the exact kind of thing that is going on in Venezuela, and…the Ukraine.
Back to self-banishment. Have fun. Show is done too I think. Time to sail! Good luck to us all!
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/03/19/welcome-jordan-smith/#comment-14792
Obviously their intelligence (and I use that word loosely) gathering in Iraq has worked out well… no more violence or insurgency there… right?
An Open Letter To Lyra1, Bill Owen, et al. –
”Would you actually say what you’ve said on here about Mike Wolf to his face?
As for the claim that others on here are acting as the “thought police” for calling you out on this inappropriate behavior? – the hypocrisy of that statement, coming from those who belittle, besmirch, chide, deride, and ridicule others on here, particularly someone who admits to mental health issues, is beyond the pale.
And that you think what you say and how you say it is part of the solution, and not actually part the problem, is just another symptom of your disconnect from how people actually should behave to one another in a civilized society.
George Clooney notes that at some point in their life everyone needs someone to tell remind them “what’s what.”
In this case, that’s me, and this is “what’s what” regarding your continuing indefensible and thoughtless behavior towards others on this site:
So for you folks – some advice from humanity, in an excerpt from Netiquette, by Virginia Shea:
Rule 1: Remember the human
The golden rule your parents and your kindergarten teacher taught you was pretty simple: Do unto others as you’d have others do unto you. Imagine how you’d feel if you were in the other person’s shoes. Stand up for yourself, but try not to hurt people’s feelings.
In cyberspace, we state this in an even more basic manner: Remember the human.
When you communicate electronically, all you see is a computer screen. You don’t have the opportunity to use facial expressions, gestures, and tone of voice to communicate your meaning; words — lonely written words — are all you’ve got. And that goes for your correspondent as well.
When you’re holding a conversation online — whether it’s an email exchange or a response to a discussion group posting — it’s easy to misinterpret your correspondent’s meaning. And it’s frighteningly easy to forget that your correspondent is a person with feelings more or less like your own.
It’s ironic, really. Computer networks bring people together who’d otherwise never meet. But the impersonality of the medium changes that meeting to something less — well, less personal. Humans exchanging email often behave the way some people behind the wheel of a car do: They curse at other drivers, make obscene gestures, and generally behave like savages. Most of them would never act that way at work or at home.
But the interposition of the machine seems to make it acceptable.
The message is that it’s not acceptable. Yes, use your network connections to express yourself freely, explore strange new worlds, and boldly go where you’ve never gone before.
Would you say it to the person’s face?
Writer and Macintosh evangelist Guy Kawasaki tells a story about getting email from some fellow he’s never met. Online, this fellow tells Guy that he’s a bad writer with nothing interesting to say.
Unbelievably rude? Yes, but unfortunately, it happens all the time in cyberspace.
Maybe it’s the awesome power of being able to send mail directly to a well-known writer like Guy. Maybe it’s the fact that you can’t see his face crumple in misery as he reads your cruel words. Whatever the reason, it’s incredibly common.
Guy proposes a useful test for anything you’re about to post or mail: Ask yourself, “Would I say this to the person’s face?” If the answer is no, rewrite and reread. Repeat the process till you feel sure that you’d feel as comfortable saying these words to the live person as you do sending them through cyberspace.
Of course, it’s possible that you’d feel great about saying something extremely rude to the person’s face. In that case, Netiquette can’t help you. Go get a copy of Miss Manners’ Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior.
Regards,
Sillyputty
Dearest Sillyputty … at the risk of re-igniting our feud, which I absolutely do not want this to do (srsly), I kindly and respectfully ask you refer to your own advice to me about drinking the kool-aid while retaining my voice and speaking out.
Glenn’s article and this page is about: “NSA Blows Its Own Top Secret Program in Order to Propagandize”. Any infighting between and amongst us is a distraction and sets a poor tone to any new readers that may venture onto this site. I know you welcome them as much as I do. I know your heart is in the right place. I know that not all of us agree with each other and spats break out. I am as guilty of going rogue with my snark as anybody else is and do so, with frequency.
My only suggestion is this: If you feel inclined to respond to a comment/commenter please consider doing it -within- the thread that sparks your ire. That way, at least, the context is not lost and it doesn’t appear (at least from where I’m sitting) that new comments are a gauntlet thrown to duke it out (and you know I put up my dukes regularly – not new information)
Just my two cents … take it (and me) for what it’s worth. Maybe put a shot of brandy in that coffee of yours and please do whatever feels good in your heart – even if that means telling me to STFU. I can take it. ;-) Peace out.
@Silly: Yeah … so um – based on what I assumed was evidence to the contrary – and this little gem of a post: https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/03/28/us-takes-break-condemning-tyranny-celebrate-obamas-visit-saudi-arabia/#comment-19644
— STFU … and get lost. Oh, and grow the fuck up already!
Via twitter:
Tonight at 8pm @BartonGellman talks #NSA with former director Michael Hayden. http://bgell.me/1h7MHbr
Nice, that should be a good one.
Also, this is worth checking out:
https://strausscenter.org/details/279-privacy-surveillance-and-the-nsa.html
We’ve created a hyper-State because it was instilled in us early by our peers that hyper-State=good, self-responsibility and limited gov’t=bad. What ever could be the problem? Is it income inequality?
That’s it. We’re not income-equal enough. Redistribution and central planning is what we need.
Re: redistribution–it’s true, lets put the military in charge of the efforts…look how well they’re handling the people under their jurisdiction!
what we definitely need is bigger and more expensive government, now! CHUCKLE
I’ll accede to income equality if we can have a strong surveillance mechanism to enforce it.
THe ACLU’s text-searchable database of NSA docs now live
https://www.aclu.org/nsa-documents-search
This is pretty awesome!!
Awesome @Nate… thanks for posting this.
Rodentia Staatssicherheiticus thrives in garbage dumps. Not so much in more sanitary environments. Given current conditions, the infestation has reached historically unprecedented levels — no hyperbole here — and its mother is Of The People, By The People™.
Where’s Tom DeLay when you need him? Anyone have his phone number? Is he still in the extermination bidness?
And if you’re now apprehensive about state power, then revisit your progressive leftist infatuation with making gov’t Big.
@Disenfranchised… I am a progressive leftist. That’s not my position, and while I can/do not speak for everyone who is a part of our club – I personally feel that our goal is to live in a country where people are as responsible for themselves as they are truly sympathetic to those who need a helping hand, no matter how many times they fall. Because we care … and because many of us have benefitted greatly by the generosity of those, who don’t know us, but care just the same for us as they do for themselves.
al·tru·ism
noun
1. the belief in or practice of disinterested and selfless concern for the well-being of others.
“some may choose to work with vulnerable elderly people out of altruism”
ZOOLOGY
behavior of an animal that benefits another at its own expense.
p.s. Do you light incense at the alter of Ayn Rand, too???
correction: That [IS] my position.
Lordy – the day we get an edit button my free association and tourrettes/finger tips will = Michelangelos “Adam’s finger and God’s” finally touching!!!!
Ayn Rand was not a libertarian; Objectivists will tell you that themselves. You skate along the surface of progressive leftism’s comfort zone of superficial knowledge.
Libertarian is also not synonymous with parsimony. It means only that you don’t build a state apparatus that extracts your money in the name of altruism at the barrel of a gun.
@Disenfranchised:
“Ayn Rand was not a libertarian”
— When you can find a quote where I ever said that bring it on. BTW – you never will. She was a novelist, {cough} philosopher {cough cough} and atheist. “Libertarians are a monstrous, disgusting bunch of people.” -Ayn Rand
— Funny though how Christian, bible-beating libertarians use Atlas Shrugged as their bible to promote objectivism, rational and ethical egoism, their obscene objections to ethical altruism.
“You skate along the surface of progressive leftism’s comfort zone of superficial knowledge.”
K.I.S.S. this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayn_Rand
“Libertarian is also not synonymous with parsimony.”
par•si•mo•ny (pär?s?-m??n?)
n. Unusual or excessive frugality; extreme economy or stinginess.
n. Adoption of the simplest assumption in the formulation of a theory or in the interpretation of data, especially in accordance with the rule of Ockham’s razor.
— Uh… yes, Libertarians are brutally stingy when it comes to genuine altruism. I’ll use the Kochs as a prime example of any libertarian – they’ve made a killing adopting Rand’s “philosophy” as their own – and to their own tight ass ends. They only “pretend” to be altruistic when building hospital wings or supporting colleges whose curriculum’s just so happen to be “suggested” by them … while also donating to PBS and turning around telling them NOT to air (censorship much) “Citizen Koch”.
Occam’s Razor:
“The explanation requiring the fewest assumptions is most likely to be correct.”
“It means only that you don’t build a state apparatus that extracts your money in the name of altruism at the barrel of a gun.”
— No… Libertarians buy a state appartus, and entire governments, that extracts OUR money in the name of self interest by using their bank accounts. They leave the barrels of guns to the war mongering politicians that pull the triggers on their behalf – to secure more natural resources and oil fields they can exploit to the benefit of said bank accounts”
“You skate along the surface of progressive leftism’s comfort zone of superficial knowledge.”
— Kiss my ass!
Progressive leftists always want to spent my money–never their own–to further their agenda.
If the New York Times is against the SC’s new campaign finance ruling, then I’m automatically for it.
Is the NYT actually “against” it or are they trying not to come off as over-the-top billionnaire backers to make themselves look less like water carrying assholes for power?
I guess agreeing with the ruling puts you in the same camp as the bourgeois capitalist Greenwald. Congrats!
Need you be reminded that it was moneyed power that funded Max Warburgs’s “sealed train” that carried V.I. Lenin and $10 million from Zurich back to Moscow?
How is that inconsistent with what leftist media is all about?
I had a good place to insert this comment, but I lost track of where I was…never forget how much the desire for power, influence and $$$ pervades the state surveillance machine and…
Keep in mind that as more and more people become attached to these entities (offense contractors, armed forces, surveillance activities and the like), the greater the chance that a friend, relative or close associate becomes a direct beneficiary of war-related activities. Those usually spend hours defending/promoting the system and the younger generation (who sometimes actually listen to these tales and have even displayed codfish-like attention while the tales are related!) is unable to discern the meaning of the deception.) This same principle applies to the gathering storm of the LAW : as incentives are increased for people to be attached to (subliminally) forceful domestic governmental assemblies (cops, courts, jails, surveillance states of mind) we create higher levels of dependency on these. In addition to those who seemingly benefit in the here and now from a higher level of forceful mechanisms to control the people, there is an ever-expanding company of wanna-bees waiting in the wings for their chance to put people behind bars (most of these newer employees will generally be happy to comply with the masters’ orders in order that a steady stream of pay checks and the beginning of a nest egg (silo) can be hoped for) and to keep the victims there for as long as possible and beyond so they can store up a silo (pension) in order to perpetuate this (POLICE) state of affairs. As more and more of the treasury(ies) is spent on the state prisons and the hastening of systems of incarceration/surveillances, more people begin to consider it to be a viable alternative for earning a living, and this is clearly not freedom. (For proof positive that the country is heading in the wrong direction on this one, be sure to consult the Oprah Winfrey telecast of July 19, 2005 and remember that paying more money towards greater law enforcement provisions and jails also shows a lack of FAITH in people. Without faith, it is very difficult to move towards HOPE and practically impossible to move towards CHARITY!) Paying more money towards this also causes more people to get caught in the poverty cycle (or the fear of poverty), in which the cost of housing, education, and healthcare, transport becomes nearly unbearable and in the end causes greater conflict (confusion.) Last but not least (and by reading thoroughly the other documents I link to in earlier posts) here’s an associated remark from the NSA fears budget cuts more than Errorism++ — I know for sure that NSA operates without any controls and that anytime a misdeed by NSA++et.al is noted, nods and winks prevail and the culprits are easily forgiven/forgotten…I should really point out that NSA+++et.al (it’s really so huge and reaches into every aspect of society and makes themselves into the saviours of the world) and that constantly reminds me of this: set up a jobs program which is integrated into your own regime/mentality and have an unlimited access to OPM and you’ll be sure to attract a large following…now fasten that onto a society driven/desperate to excel at pleasing the masters (of deception) and you’ve got…I don’t look to whitewash KA but as well informed as he obviously is, he probably has little idea of what schemes will be concocted by the subcontractors/black budgets to maintain/increase the drain on the nations’ treasury(ies)
The problem with articulating a little about a whole lot in one breath is that you run the risk of turning people off before you have a chance to make your case. This having been said, I appreciate the collective import of that which you are attempting to say.
I know what you mean, and thanks for pointing it out…my post would have slightly more bearable if I had inserted it where it made more sense..thanks again
@Wilhelmina–“The problem with articulating…run the risk…” they’ve been saying that for years–I will continue to offer up my comments in the hopes that someone sees how much they’ll lead to an improved condition. I’ll do so until they shut me up (and they’ve been trying since 1997!)
PS: Here’s the link to the poem…if you want the master document also let me know…Peace and Love must save the day and all else.
Thanks for the article you referenced, Doug, whose premise and conclusions I have been in aggreement with for over 30 years.
With that said however, I agree that income inequality is the villian here, not any single billionaire. That they could and should do more to address this issue, because in the end income inequality leads to the collapse of societies, is a given. That Omidyar recocnizes this more than many seems apparent in his philantropy, but In any case I need to research that more to be sure. From the article:
Regards, Sillyputty
Income inequality is direct from DCCC and the WH. Income inequality is a red herring that was contrived purely to distract attention away from Benghazi and Fast and Furious and police state/surveillance state. That you even invoke “income inequality” signifies pure stooge behavior (and after your GRRV dispatch I have more respect than that for your intelligence).
How many 59FIFTY flat brims and straight hair wigs and Marmot Biggies and picture nails and Obamaphones and mylar Tweety Bird balloons and unblemished Timberlands and rims and 5000W car audio will make the progressive left more equal?
DRC, it would appear that you have the mental capacity of a gnat. Thanks for the entertainment but your day was 2 days ago.
article about Omidyar as obscene: Am I My Brother or Sister’s Keeper? The Unequal Divide by JOHN K. WHITE “Today’s obscene levels of inequality, however, suggest that the divide is not a natural condition of human existence, but a product of how we compete, with the rich always getting richer.” http://www.counterpunch.org/ One wonders how many children starved because Omydiar won’t part with say, 10 of his 12 billion dollars?
That article isn’t about Omidyar, it’s about the detrimental effects of severe inequality.
as bad as income inequality has become, there’s little hope for much change. We say this because there are so many Not filthy rich who have huge interest in keeping things going as they are…these are mostly government workers (and subcontractors+, who make a decent living ($65K or more) have 5-6 week vacations, full family coverage, tenure, pensions+, and guns, and spend much of each day doing non-work related activities (ie though well paid, they only do serious work 1/2 the day)—when it comes to defending the system, these types will be more forceful because their losses will be so significant and they know that they might actually have to end up working in a real non-gov’t job, whereas: rich (esp: ultra) probably won’t fear the coming collapse since they have a huge cushion., plus they have their foot soldiers governmental to protect the status quo. (However, please type this directly into your browser –> 1drv.ms/MY5t7M (case counts!) for a look at Medicare for ALL, which could at least create some equality in healthcarePS: if you want some other material to help understand how Medicare works, make contact…but keep trying they’ve more or less succeeded at keeping me quiet for years…
We all know why the NSA leaks information for its own benefit. The question is why people can’t see through it? How do you get people to see obvious propaganda? How do we combat duplicity in government institutions when American society can’t make the distinction between government planted propaganda and actual worthwhile reporting like the Intercept? I like the reporting here at the Intercept but you do not have a large share of the American media market. Even if you happen to draw people (American news viewers) to the Intercept by some provocation mentioned by the American media.. I doubt that most of the American public would see the obvious hypocrisy this story reveals.
US SECRETLY CREATED ‘CUBAN TWITTER’ TO STIR UNREST
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/us-secretly-created-cuban-twitter-stir-unrest
So many questions come to mind. Why is the US so fearful of Cuba’s model after all this time? Why can’t the US mind its own business for once? Is it even conceivable that the US isn’t involved in the destabilization of Venezuela? If the US has an interest in Cuba having better internet access, wouldn’t it make sense to lift the embargo?
@Jose … “Why is the US so fearful of Cuba’s model after all this time?”
http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/02/27/why-did-russia-send-spy-ship-to-cuba-no-word-from-communist-nation-as-armed-vessel-docks-in-havana/
Putin/Russia + Ukraine + Cuba = ??? It’s all just a fucked up chess game. And I’m not defending Putin, nor am I condoning his decision for this ship being dispatched/positioned. Reminds me of the 1962 Cuban Missile Crisis … and that ended with no shots fired. Further reminds me of Putin sinking ships in the Crimean port. Putin is taking non-violent actions but making his point at the same time. Inneresting….
Go Putin;Defend the world from the monsters. Why can’t a spy ship from Russia dock in Cuba?Do you(or US) own the Atlantic,or the Caribbean?Are you afraid?ooooh….break out the pampers.
@dahoit: “Do you(or US) own the Atlantic,or the Caribbean?”
Are you talking to me or Obama? Nevermind – I already don’t care.
Hi El B–indeed, the snipers shot quite a few already back in February
@Jamesmmm: I posted a reply… it’s constipated in some otherworldly bottleneck. Stay tuned.
@Jamesmmm: Shit! What did I miss??? Do you have a link? I thought I knew what the eff I was talkin’ about – dammit!!!
Been a lil distracted … lost a few people in my family in the last month. I admit my attention took a bit of a hit and I wasn’t able to stay on top of my reading the way I’m used to. Not an excuse – just the reason. Can you help me out? Do you have any links you can provide? It’ll help me get up to speed again. And thanks for the heads up.
duckit–> snipers in kiev you’ll find sumpthin’
@El B–I think somebody is preventing replies on the post re: people who love surveillance and ought to apply for jobs at NSA… they probably already work there or they’ll include it on their cover letter/CV to the NSA…Did you know that 1/3 employers won’t consider a resume without a cover letter?
@jamesmmm: Shit! Forgot about the cover letter. Good thing you’re here now to cover my ass. I’ll write that for my “friend” too – just for good measure. Shouldn’t take much … I’ll just cut/paste (ala Rand Paul) and that should serve as more than enough proof of his loyalty to the criminal surveillance state. (p.s. – if I weren’t so skurred of crapflooding I would’ve enjoyed posting all the exchanges between he and I. They are beyond hilarious – and yet quite sad at the same time. Meh! – Whatevs).
@Jamesmmm: So I checked out The Guardian… this is what I came up with:
“Further reminds me of Putin sinking ships in the Crimean port. Putin is taking non-violent actions but making his point at the same time. ”
— While my first sentence is true – it’s also true that when the military base was stormed there were, in fact, shots fired. This obviously invalidates makes my second sentence. I won’t split hairs. I was wrong. Here is what I found…
• A Ukrainian serviceman has died after being shot dead in the storming of a Ukrainian military base in Simferopol, Crimea, according to a military spokesman. He said a captain was also injured and taken to hospital and other Ukrainian servicemen were arrested.
I also read “local self-defense brigade member reported dead at base in Simferopol, Crimea, just hours after [Putin’s] speech”
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2583225/Putin-signs-Crimea-annexation-bill-Ukraine-announces-fight-Russia-enlists-hundreds-men-National-Guard-training.html
— God bless all souls that were lost and injured. Prayers for justice for the military that were arrested. Prayers for a peaceful resolution with no more loss of life or injuries.
• The Ukrainian military spokesman described the attackers as “unknown forces, fully equipped”. Russia reportedly said that Crimean self-defense fighters were shot by a sniper.
— this “unknown forces”??? hmmmmm….. Inneresting….
“Military troops in unmarked uniforms resembling Russian uniforms took over two airports in Crimea, Simferopol airport and a military facility at Sevastopol, overnight, …
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/28/gunmen-crimean-airports-ukraine
I also read this little tidbit: …
“Dozens of armed men in military uniforms without markings … although it has not been confirmed that the men at either airport belong to Russian military units.”
http://www.ksdk.com/story/news/nation/2014/02/28/russia-military-crimea-ukraine-airport/5892507/
— Curiouser and curiouser —- QUESTION: I wonder if any of those unidentified forces that stormed the base were buddies with/or the same unidentified “unmarked” military dudes struttin’ around town? I don’t know who those guys were. I’m neither convinced they were Russian, nor am I convinced they were not. I wonder if Blackwater moonlights for our enemies? … like for overtime pay, or somethin??? Or does Putin have his own Blackwateresqe MIC?
“Reminds me of the 1962 Cuban Missile Crisis … and that ended with no shots fired.”
— needed to go back and refresh my memory … I stand corrected: “On October 27, a U-2 plane was shot down by a Soviet missile crew, an action that could have resulted in immediate retaliation from the Kennedy crisis cabinet, … Kennedy stayed his hand and the negotiations continued.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_missile_crisis
I stand corrected for those things you brought to my attention – and for those things I brought to mine. Thank you for both.
If they find any of the money…let me know….
@Jamesmmm… STAPH!!!! Missing money (who’s? Castro/Ukraine/U.S. or the missing artwork in Cuba? Link me up with a ref, pretty please? I don’t want to make any assumptions about to what you’re referring … plus I live for this shit!
The all to precious prissy nature of Greenwald and his ban of sycophants.
Drip, drip, drip the drop,
water wears away the stone.
slowly,slowly, slowly catch the monkey,
before it turns to stone.
Monkey see and monkey hear but slowly monkey speaks of evil.
On the back of the news it will take 100 and 50 years to release the Snowden files,
Yet the boiling frogs see nothing but the prophecy of sybel becoming reality.
By the time the whole thing is over, nothing will stand in the way of the rulers.
Publish or be damned Greenwald.
Print it all.
If American lives are lost, well so be it but know it is the actions of them and not the truth that kills them.
How many Iraqi lives, how many Afghani lives and how many Yemani lives are lost by Greenwalds refusal to publish documents now.
Good point Glenn. They’ve forgotten that only journalists can responsibly decide which classified programs to blow. That’s the First Amendment, right?
McClathcy:
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2014/04/02/223269/is-whistleblower-advocate-for.html#storylink=cpy
Now, this is an interesting example of the way that propaganda actually works; the ol’ story buried within a story ploy:
“McClatchy reported that the draft report concluded that Vickers had disclosed the protected name of a U.S. Special Operations Forces officer who helped plan the bin Laden raid to Boal and Kathryn Bigelow, the film’s director, and the inspector general referred the case to the Justice Department. The Justice Department declined to prosecute and no final determination has been announced.
Like the findings on Panetta, the conclusion that Vickers had leaked restricted information was taken out of the final version of the report. At the time, Vickers was Panetta’s leading choice to replace him as CIA director.”
One must always read stories such as these with the conscious intent of identifying their sub textual intent. In this case it is the claim that Vickers leaked name of the U.S. Special Operations Forces officer who allegedly helped to plan the bin Laden raid to the film director of Zero Dark Thirty. In order to buy into this little bit of theater, one must first accept the basic premise that the raid on the Pakistani compound was anything other than pure propaganda. The true purpose of this incarnate version of events is to shore up support for an ever-evolving narrative that has been proven to be repeatedly false since Obama recanted the claim that he personally witnessed the raid in real time from the White House situation room via Navy Seal cams:
http://content.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,2069208_2271482,00.html
Could you provide a link to support this claim? I was unable to find any. Thank you.
Regards, Sillyputty
Are you suggesting that the acting head of the CIA, Leon Panetta, didn’t have White House approval to release an “official” statement which retracted the widely reported claim that the raid had been recorded by the cameras mounted on the helmets of the Navy Seals that allegedly killed Osama bib Laden? Have you ever seen a White House denial or retraction of Panetta’s claim?
Osama bin Laden dead: Blackout during raid on bin Laden compound
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/al-qaeda/8493391/Osama-bin-Laden-dead-Blackout-during-raid-on-bin-Laden-compound.html
Bin Laden Killing: How the White House, Pentagon and CIA Botched the Storyline
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/05/06/bin-laden-killing-white-house-pentagon-cia-botched-storyline/
Osama Bin Laden Raid: Report Casts Doubt on Helmet-Cam Footage
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/osama-bin-laden-raid-navy-seal-helmet-cams/story?id=14205401
A year after President Obama gave the order for Navy SEALs to kill Osama Bin Laden, the President is still reaping political rewards
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/year-president-obama-gave-order-navy-seals-kill-osama-bin-laden-president-reaping-political-rewards-article-1.1069201
My response has been posted and is forthcoming. It contains multiple links however, so it will take some time to show up.
In absence of my last post which contained multiple links, I have chosen to retry by sending just one of those links.
Osama bin Laden dead: Blackout during raid on bin Laden compound
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/al-qaeda/8493391/Osama-bin-Laden-dead-Blackout-during-raid-on-bin-Laden-compound.html
“Obama recanted the claim that he personally witnessed the raid in real time from the White House situation room”
Thanks, Wilhelmina. But unless I’m missing something in the links provided (entirely possible) there is not:
1) Any evidence that Obama claimed that he had personally witnessed the raid in real time from the White House situation room, or
2) Any evidence of Obama recanting such claim.
Nor could I find anything independently to substantiate these claims.
Regards, Sillyputty
Any evidence that Obama claimed that he had personally witnessed the raid in real time from the White House situation room:
C’mon SillyPutty, you have Google at your fingertips. Type in: Obama, situation room, Osama, seals and you will get hundreds of references (and photos) that speak directly to this moment in history.
“Any evidence of Obama ‘personally’ recanting such claim.”
Official statements made my department heads are, by definition, officially sanctioned by the White House, unless otherwise noted. CIA director Penetta publicly contradicted the initial White House’s claim that the Navy Seal’s helmcams captured, in real-time, that which transpired within the compound at Abbottabad. In absence of any official denial by the White House, one can only conclude that Obama personally approved of Penetta’s statement.
To be completely accurate then:
) There is no evidence that Obama claimed that he had personally witnessed the raid in real time from the White House situation room, so therefore
2) There can be no evidence of Obama recanting a nonexistent claim.
Thanks for the Google tip – but Doug Valentine taught me ‘interweb’ search basics on here a few days ago…;)
“There is no evidence that Obama claimed that he had personally witnessed the raid in real time from the White House situation room, so therefore”
No evidence beyond the official release of photos by the White House Press Corps. that claimed to be showing Obama in the situation room watching, in real time, the Navy Seal assault on the compound at Abbottabad, and which were accompanied by a patently false White House narrative of eyewitness accounts of that which transpired.
Please, this little game that you are playing is beneath you.
With all respect, can the “little game” rhetoric. It’s patronizing, and beneath you.
You made a specific claim that is not backed up by the evidence you have provided. True, I could have missed something explicit that actually supports what you specifically said, but if I have, disabuse me of it, please.
All the information that you provided was based on inference, and does not support the actual statements you made.
In the end, you have to prove the claim – I do not have to disprove it.
The post to which I referred that contained a number of links has now appeared above. I hope that they might help you to begin your own investigation for truth sake.
Thank you, Wilhelmina – I did reply after reading the sources you provided.
My response remains the same:
You made a specific claim that is not backed up by the evidence you have provided. True, I could have missed something explicit that actually supports what you specifically said, but if I have, disabuse me of it, please.
All the information that you provided was based on inference, and does not support the actual statements you made.
In the end, you have to prove the claim – I do not have to disprove it.
Ok, have it your way. Remain pridefully ignorant.
Honestly. What in intellectually cowardly reply.
First Wilhelmina, you make a factual assertion:
”Obama recanted the claim that he personally witnessed the raid in real time from the White House situation room via Navy Seal cams
I then asked you to provide a link to support this claim. Not one link that I read supported what you said.
You then assert that I cannot search the internet properly (in other words, it’s all my fault your claim isn’t proven) in order to not back up your initial claim.
I then remind you that the person making a claim has to back up that claim, to which you boorishly reply:“have it your way. Remain pridefully ignorant.”
In the end, despite my internet searches and the links you provided, your initial claim remains unsupported by evidence, i.e., anything showing that both:
1) Obama specifically said what you claim, and
2) Obama specifically refuted what you claim he said.
Wilhelmina, you can either provide the links where Obama firstspecifically made the claim and then Obama recanted the claim that you say he explicitly made.
Or you can practice what you had preached on here earlier regarding desirable independent characteristics:
A measure of one independence can be derived from the following behaviors:
1. The ability to reasonably weigh the legitimacy of all perspectives in absence of personal bias.
2. The ability to reasonably weigh the legitimacy of all perspectives without fear of ridicule and/or derision.
3. The ability to resist the urge to chronically respond to all legitimate challenges to ones own perspective with emotionally charged invective.
4. The ability to publicly condemn those who, in defense of their own ignorance and bias (group conformity), reflexively employ any tactic to silence all non-conforming perspectives.
5. The ability to resist the urge of adopting and parroting the insubstantial beliefs and/or rationalizations of others simply because they seemingly comport with that which we believe we know.
Best regards,
Sillyputty
“Wilhelmina, you can either provide the links where Obama first specifically made the claim and then Obama recanted the claim that you say he explicitly made.”
There is a third option that you haven’t offered, but that I choose to take nevertheless…. I choose to allow others to review our exchange and judge for them selves whether I provided adequate substantiation of my assertions. However, I will admit that I have wronged you by mischaracterizing the nature of your actions and thus your motives; you are not pridefully ignorant, but ruefully so. Thank you for providing me with a new found respect for Lyra1’s decision not to further entertain your nonsense. Please excuse me when I humbly refrain from responding to your willfully ignorant commentary.
Wilhelmina, that you believe that I offer you this option is presumptuous in and of itself.
It is you that choose to take it; any attempt to ascribe a motive for your actions to my responses or lack thereof rings hollow.
You made an unequivocal statement that, quite honestly in the scheme of things may quite likely have been what had happened, but can nonetheless not be ascribed to the circumstantial evidence which you have provided, or to any which I have seen.
That you also choose to hang your hat on this one example as the escape from your own assertions, and not my questioning of them, in which you cannot provide an adequate rebuttal or retraction for your own statement, is telling as well.
What is interesting in all of this is that someone who alleges to embrace individualism, accountability for one’s own arguments, and the ability to agree to disagree would nonetheless stoop as far as disparagement, and then go even further, in arguing that others should decide for them their own initial position in order to discontinue a discussion that they have no credible answer for.
In the end, your rebuttal reads like a “who’s who” of logical fallacies: from ad hominem attacks about, not what I say, but what you feel about me – claiming that I am either pridefully, or, when that doesn’t fit, then ruefully ignorant; then further to an argument from ignorance, where you say “it’s true because we don’t know that it isn’t true;” and on to an argument from authority, where, first you give “others” the authority to decide who is right, and still further – of all things – you chose Lyra1’s evasion as reason enough to decide your own thoughts for you.
What this finally all adds up to is that in order to remove the foot from your own mouth because of the initial assertion that you made, and rather than address the question honestly and above-board, you instead attempt to move the goal-posts during your rebuttals – further and further away from what you actually said, until finally not only do you not take responsibility for saying it, you assign the argument over to others, or their implied ignorance, to conclude the discussion for you.
Best regards, Sillyputty
Thank you again, Glenn. A piece of enormous importance.
Another day in The Most Transparent Administration Ever, from McClatchy:
Julia Angwin, author of Dragnet Nation, talks about how her 9 year old daughter discovered a way to make secure passwords. Password hackers know every password which has ever been used on the internet. This is one of the best discussions of how constant surveillance is affecting our lives. Especially good for those people who think, “I’m not doing anything wrong, so I have nothing to hide.”
http://www.democracynow.org/2014/4/2/dragnet_nation_do_google_facebook_know
Great work, Glenn! But, when do we get to hear the punchline?
By this, I mean: when do we get to see the leak that finally reveals what this insane electronic panopticon is **really** for?
Since it’s been shown that it’s completely useless at catching terrorists in spite of its massive cost and the years it’s been running, and since (I imagine) the people in charge of this are not complete morons (just liars), then it’s not unreasonable to suppose that it’s really for something other that stopping terrorists.
I really hope that one of the yet-to-be-released documents will answer this question.
In the meantime, we’ll just have to think the worst: that the spying machine is fundamentally intended to serve the interests of money and politics rather than saving lives. After all, the NSA has been collecting emails, text messages, credit card transactions, google searches, web page views, cell phone locations, etc. of everyone … including Members of Congress and their staff, judges, lawyers, journalists, activists, NGOs, watchdog groups, labour unions, CEOs of large corporations and banks, central banks (foreign and domestic), and every stripe of international power broker. Think about just how much power this puts in the hands of the NSA, and presumably, the White House. Should anyone ever be allowed to have this much power? How can anyone seriously think this power will, in the absence of meaningful public oversight, be used primarily for its “advertised” purposes?
Thus, the obvious question becomes: what is it **really** being used for?
Please, I hope that one of the upcoming leaks is able to answer this question, and that, if so, you have a strategy for releasing it to provide the maximum possible effect (like, maybe inspiring this year’s congressional election campaigns to focus on the issue of public oversight and transparency).
Good luck!
My only concern is that over time instead of sparking the outrage it justifies, these revelations effectively become just, well, notice (as in, “Well, everyone knows they do it…”).
How Did Snowden Change Search Behavior? New Research Shows, More Than You Might Think
In meantime, use is reportedly soaring at DuckDuckGo.
Government Surveillance and Internet Search Behavior
Another interesting metric is to consider the grown of search engine DuckDuckGo:
http://www.mensxp.com/technology/web-and-social/22159-the-new-search-engine-duckduckgo-may-give-tough-competition-to-google.html
And yet the Intercept beds and embeds third party trackers here to do their dirty work.
Selective cognizant distortion fromthe “I love Glenn more than all the others and he has not nor can he make any mistake” Mona.
Love the Duck (my homepage), Mona, and used only that for years even before Edward’s effort.
I perpetually try to defeat commercial as well as government tracking, though I’ve nothing to hide, so I haven’t carried a phone anywhere for years either.
Too many years in the belly of the beast…
@NFJTAKFA & -Mona- … I too love DuckIt – my only complaint is that their generator doesn’t always provide as thorough/many results as Google. I suppose this has to do with how results are bought/paid for – maybe not. Given that I don’t search for poisonous white powders, recipes for things that explode, or other red-flags Google is my back-up. I am anxiously awaiting to downloading “Tails” when it’s released to the public.
https://pressfreedomfoundation.org/blog/2014/04/help-support-little-known-privacy-tool-has-been-critical-journalists-reporting-nsa
@El B- simply using/mentioning Du____t is surely a sign you may be hiding something, Now, you’re confessing to using Du___t and referencing ‘powder’ and ‘recipes’
PS: even mentioning it is cause for application of more resources (read: OPM) to expand the surveillance state((s) of mind) and beyond (did I blow my own cover here?)
PPS: then again, coming on FirstLook is evidence that can/will be held against you in the kangaroo courts of law. CHUCKLES
@Jamesmmm: Well, I HAVE written more than a few “love letters” directly to the NSA on this very site … as a matter of fact – just last night – while “debating” a friend on FB who was accusing ES of being a traitor who has cost the U.S. billions of dollars as a result of the release of the documents (I know – I spit coffee out my nose at that one).
This was my reply: “…why don’t you apply for a job with the NSA. I’m sure they could use a few more “good” men like you. Then, might I suggest, you just plug the fuck into my computer and phone. You can actually get paid to surveil me directly from the cushy comfort of a rolling office chair and state-of-the-art computer system – I hear their kool-aid, er, coffee is swell! It’ll save me a lot of time typing this shit to you over and over again. I’ll even provide a reference.”
Maybe the NSA will see this as an olive branch?
The US, always at the forefront in the spread of freedom around the world.
It is telling how many recipients just get to smell an industry manure called “freedom.”
George Carlin long ago reminded what was really loaded into that ‘freedom spreader.’
Is that the bagle analogy? at 5:00 george Carlin tells US about choices, but watch the entire video for reminicing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cr7ePrCAqzo
@Jose: “The US, always at the forefront in the spread of freedom around the world.”
Um… The US has always APPEARED to be at the forefront in the spread of freedom around the world – and has historically been caught more than I can count with their sticky fingers in the shit-stirring pots and war chests … among and between their allies AND enemies.
I hereby nominate this to be labeled ‘freedoom’
Ponder the following. Isn’t it remarkable that in Saudi Arabia people are now afraid to search for government-sensitive terms, because the US government might be listening in?
“Ponder the following. Isn’t it remarkable that in Saudi Arabia people are now afraid to search for government-sensitive terms, because the US government might be listening in?”
Hmmm, the things that make me ponder:
“Figure 2 separates out our analysis by country. The main pattern that emerges in the
data is that for all countries excepting Saudi Arabia and South Korea, traffic fell for search terms that were rated as likely to get you in trouble with the U. S. government, but rose for terms not likely to get you in trouble. In both Saudi Arabia and South Korea, traffic on high-trouble terms remained constant; in Saudi Arabia, traffic on low-trouble terms fell, and in South Korea it rose. Given how different those two countries are, it may be that we will have to seek unique explanations as to why they exhibited different patterns.”
“This work is at an early stage, and therefore comes with many caveats. Most importantly, we have not yet thoroughly investigated the variety of other possible security-related events that may independently have influenced the overall country-by-country search behavior we document in this paper. We believe that a closer week-by-week analysis of the press coverage of the surveillance scandals would strengthen the analysis.
There are further limitations to the generalizability of our findings. First, we are not not sure how are the results generalize outside of the search domain towards important tech industries such as the rapidly growing U. S. cloud computing industry. Second, we are not sure how the revelations aected search on Google’s major competitors, such as Bing and Yahoo! Search. It may be that the effect on their services was lessened by reduced media focus on them relative to Google in the light of the PRISM revelations and potentially the extent to which users anticipated that their servers may be located outside of the US. Third, our results are focused on the effects of revelations about government surveillance as opposed to the direct effects of government surveillance per se.”
The studies author’s claim that, in the immediate aftermath of Google being named in the “Prism” revelations, searches of “privacy-sensitive” terms went down on Google by 5%. However, the data includes search behaviors that extend as far back to June 6, 2013. The study focused on search terms from three sources: a DHS list, a crowdsourced “embarrassing terms” list, and a third list of the terms Google Trends itself defines as the top search terms” for 2013.
One last caveat: Citing high-ranking government sources, HBGary Federal has released its own independent top-secret report which reveals that the use of euphemisms for “privacy-sensitive” terms such as “dirty bomb,” “improvised explosive devises,” and “Washington Blade” rose a “whopping” 50% on radical Islamic websites (to be named at a later date for reasons of National Security) during the same period in which the MIT conducted its study.
Has anyone here participated in an online forum wherein ones comments could be retracted and/or edited at will?
Hast thou misplaced thine foot?
most forums allow redacting/retracting that I know of
“the question of how surveillance has shifted the way people search for information on the Internet”
There, I fixed that for us all. Now if only they’d fix it at the polling company and the Times and the million stories that’ll derive from it (wishful thinking).
“In Iraq, for example, the National Security Agency went from intercepting only about half of enemy signals and taking hours to process them to being able to collect, sort and make available every Iraqi email, text message and phone-location signal in real time, said John “Chris” Inglis, who recently retired as the NSA’s top civilian”
Is he insane? Whether or not that is “top secret” information, in what way is gaily announcing that everybody in Iraq is having their messages intercepted supposed to help put Iraq back together?
Of course, whatever effect this statement may have had on actual Iraqis is in no way considered.
The ‘values and ideals’ of the USA. We tortured people too, and now drone-bomb innocents in case there’s a ‘suspect’ nearby.
Such deep and principled behavior is not to be horrified by and immediately questioned, apparently.
I have a problem reading this site, that I don’t have other news sites.Normal text is all grayed-out, quotes become invisible.I like bold the best.Please have instructions in comment box, as to formatting.
I read nyt, salon, the guardian, twitter without any problems.I learn a lot from the comments of others, but I can’t read the comments of The Intercept.I have given up even trying.
This site does not have a ‘share’ or ‘recommend’ or ‘up-down’ button on the comments, but it has a ‘reply’ function.Is that on account of trolls or sock-puppets? Or, some other reason?
“All propaganda has to be popular and has to accommodate itself to the comprehension of the least intelligent of those whom it seeks to reach… By the skillful and sustained use of propaganda, one can make a people see even heaven as hell or an extremely wretched life as paradise.”
– Adolf Hitler
The above is not a reply to your post, although Salon, The Guardian and Twitter are often replete with inanity and propagandists, and their easy reading certainly makes for greater popularity in business! The Intercept is cheaply put together right now, unfortunately, and indeed has an amateurish vibe to its layout. There will apparently be improvements later, from what I’ve read, but the hurry to publish was based on a naïve assumption of a public’s breathless interest which is frankly yet to surface.
I don’t know what you mean by “amateurist vibe.”
I don’t need my news pages to be replete with consumerist bells and whistles in order for me to find them useful.
The business of the Guardian and Salon gives me a headache.
typo: layouts, not business
I meant merely that the appearance is lacking in professionalism and… what’s the word, pizazz? There have been times the comments were blown apart by formatting, and even one time when the article itself was compromised, at least on my comp. I wasn’t craving more advertising, believe me. And I agree, the consumerist bells and whistles employed elsewhere do not contribute to utility or usefulness in any way.
Seems like a trite comment. I think the “hurry” to publish was based on the fact that there was and is a lot to publish, and a responsibility to do so . How much interest and how and at what rate the public takes a “breathless interest” is not something that should determine whether or not to act on that responsibility.
I’m glad it only ‘seems’ like a trite comment, so thanks for that.
Personally I am saddened by the (present) lack of excitement over The Intercept and its activities, but obviously I didn’t communicate that clearly enough.
“but the hurry to publish was based on a naïve assumption of a public’s breathless interest which is frankly yet to surface.”
@Cindy… How might one spread awareness of this site to the public especially given that MSM has virtually blacked out coverage on all ES Revelations, save a few seconds here and there, and not even as the lead? I’m honestly curious about any suggestion or ideas would be.
Social media. I tweet articles. Send links to friends.
@El B– I got a notice on Twitter this morning with a big NSA headline which got my attention…I thought for a moment that Twitter noticed my decrease in usage and was just trying to get me back reading the posts but now I see that the intercept probably promoted GG’s story…here’s the tiny URL that was on Twitter posted by Kim Zetter “bit.ly/1mqDQRy”
@Presumptuousinsect … I re-upped my FB (which I’d broken up with years ago) JUST so I could do the same. I’ve been plastering my wall with everything from TI, GG, Bill Moyers, Democracy Now!, etc. just to wake up my friends to what the hell is up.
@Jamesmmm: Wouldn’t that be funny/ironic twist. “Twitter: Please don’t break up with me! Come baaaaaaaaack!!!!” I don’t twitter – it gives me seizures with all the abbreviations and short blasts of info and I suck at trying to translate it all. Srsly – I’ve tried more times than I can count – and KNOW I’m missing out… but I just can’t.
I am just the opposite! I’d choose twitter over FB any day. The short comments suit me. And the back and forth. The annoying thing is, I have a comedy/fun account, with 1400 followers so far, and my political account, which has been around longer, only has 275 followers. Pffft.
@Presumptuousinsect: At the risk of pulling out my age card, my guess would be that we are of different generations. Even though I’m an old broad – I understand and appreciate the evolution of younger “languages” longhand – but struggle with the shorthand. Plus – with ALL that I usually need to say Twitter doesn’t allow enough room for me to let loose a string of profanity (without sounding like a total psycho in need of meds, that is)!!! :-)
I usually need to say Twitter doesn’t allow enough room for me to let loose a string of profanity (without sounding like a total psycho in need of meds, that is)!!!
Hence the existence of TwitLonger. ;-}
@Pedinska: “Hence the existence of TwitLonger. ;-}”
Is that a real thing???? I’m going to duckit/google it right now!!! Thanks :-D
Awwww Maaaaaan! Sure … I might be able to wax on poetically with my profane prose – but I’ll still have to decipher/translate what other people are tweeting. 6 of 1 / half-a-dozen of the other. Ain’t no one got time for dat! (or at least me) … I’ll just stick with FB {head hung, kickin’ the dirt}
Is it the slow launch, the impatient readers anxiously awaiting the next chapter in their future, or the fact that the comments section has degraded into a playground for little children who want to be famous by spamming the boards of a website closely watched by people who are keenly interested in why their governments are spying them?
For my part, I know that the comments section does not serve its stated purpose. That’s not the fault of the hard-working staff of The Intercept; it’s the result of the immature children who think its fun to discourage participation by others in the most important conversation in a generation.
The Intercept is failing, because no one gives a damn about the Snowden Leaks. People are too far gone. The powers-that-be have won, and any possibility of chaning anything seems lost; given that these comments sections represent the best opportunity us citizens have of engaging in the conversation and doing something to help our own futures.
I personally will continue my efforts; but knowing that the legitimate sources of news are dwindling – either because they are wholly corporate owned and thus have an agenda, or are privately owned and thus have an agenda.
I’m going to the HAM network. People on the HAM network respect the communications process, because they have to in order to use the HAM system. I firmly believe that on the HAM system, I will find what I am looking for – mature people to have a relevant conversation with.
I’ll be on as soon as I can.
Funny…I was trying to make a MESH network to interface with the HAM network, to create an open text-based communication and messaging system that rides on the HAM infrastructure. Given my experiences with most Americans – such an idea can never happen, because Americans are far too dependent upon a system that does no more than enslave them.
You folks can continue to be slaves. I’m on my way to freedom. Because true freedom is not freedom to choose, it is freedom of choice. Freedom is not multiple choice, it is fill-in-the-blank.
Get it?
Mike, your points, sans the hyperbole and gross generalizations, are otherwise spot on.
Would you please post back re: any progress with the MESH network to interface with the HAM network text-based communication and messaging system that rides on the HAM infrastructure? The reason I ask is because they have HAM classes available where I live, and that avenue of communication seems to offers advantages that simply cannot be found elsewhere.
Regards, Sillyputty
My status with the MESH network which interfaces with the HAM system is that I am no longer pursuing the idea, nor am I pursuing any effort, beyond editing and uploading the remaining episodes of Zombie Apocalypse Diaries.
I have done all I can do. It is quite clear that no one wants to fix this problem. Things are getting worse, not better, and the only possible logical conclusion is that a sufficient number of people want the end to come. And the simple fact is, people are at preconventional moral reasoning, and I have not been able to determine a manner in which to sufficiently educate people as to their erroneous mindset. I had hoped to get my findings published as an April Fool’s joke, to at least get people thinking, to get the truth out there, even it is purported to be a lie. It seemed like the perfect plan – crack and joke saying the world is ruled by zombies, but present real data, real research.
Sadly, I could not get it published. My injuries are such that I cannot figure out how to communicate effectively with people who refuse to acknowledge and accept their responsibility in the process of communication – namely seeking to understand my thoughts when I attempt to communicate them (communication is the transfer of a complete thought from one mind to another…what Ameicans do is not communication, it is talking – read these boards to see what I mean – bleah bleah bleah bleah bleah bullshit bleah.)
I also can’t get my show watched. People don’t want to hear the truth, they want to be entertained. Yes, I’m f*ing boring, and not the least bit fun to watch talking on video about these things. But its the truth, I have research to back it up, and that show WILL work if people only watch it. I can’t even get someone to watch it with the idea in mind of seeing if it is worth redoing with a production budget, and with assistance so I can edit out the spurious aspects. I figured that if I offered 126 episodes of a show averaging 15 minutes per episode, that has no advertisements, and which I make no money from; that people would at least watch a few episodes from start to finish. No such luck. I can’t make the show better, I can’t find money or help to make it better.
Nothing can be done, except to prepare oneself for the global reset. For my part, I am switching from saving the planet, to waiting for the reset and planning for the future of humanity beyond. And between you and me, if any opportunity comes along to speed things up, I’ll certainly consider it. I do know how to fertilize the oceans for Methanosarcina now. And I don’t have to do it myself, all I do is type “spread nickel dust over the oceans to destroy all humanity within 50 years” and someone will do it. See, there he goes now.
I’ll likely change my mind, I constantly come back to wanting to save humanity. This is an exercize, and I am attempting to hold on to this attitude so that I can muster up the energy to get my ship ready and get myself into Mexico. Once I am in Mexico, as they are on a different HAM system, I will move to the International rule set and get a new call sign and perhaps I will once again work on the MESH system. I’ve grown quite comfortable with the latino communities where I am and where my ship is. I feel much more comfortable, and a hell of a lot safer, in hispanic (and even black) neighborhoods than in white neighborhoods. In those neighborhoods, they simply don’t immediately trust me because I’m white – which I don’t blame them for at all. But white people (I’m white btw) all hate me immediately, and white people consistently have been the ones who have robbed me, conned me, and exhibited other forms of violence towards me.
For those interested and too lazy to read my blog entry on the subject, the MESH network as I have documented the version I like, goes like this: we, the people, use modified wireless routers, phones, and other infrastructure to connnect to each other’s devices. That makes a local MESH network wherever there are enough people to make the network. This is text-only, low bandwidth, no encryption, open communication that anyone can read. These MESH networks connect to each other through HAM repeaters and satellites belonging to the HAM system (it’s socialist in nature, you idiot Americans won’t like it…we share, we don’t pay, no one owns the network, and we all agree on rules for communication – no talk about business or profit, no encryption, no criminal activity – Americans simply cannot handle the responsiblity nor the technology, and especially not the rules.) There would have to be a new HAM license created for people who only use the MESH so that they can be acquainted with the non-technical rules, especially the communication rules.
Why open? Because encrypted communications would be spied on. No communication should ever be private that is sent over public airwaves. If you want privacy, meet in person, period. Otherwise, the world has every right to know what you are saying when you use the global communication network.
Am I bitter? Resentful? Upset? Disappointed? Angry? Depressed? Yes, to all. I discovered what all evidence I have found so far continues to support is the precise nature of what is wrong with humanity. I am attempting to get my research and results published or in the public discourse. I am rejected at EVERY SINGLE TURN by EVERY SINGLE PERSON – friend, family, professional, politician, pope, and Dalai Lama alike. In the two years and two months since I discovered this, not ONE SINGLE PERSON has asked to hear me out.
I don’t need to be believed, just heard. No one even wants that.
So, I will continue to gather knowledge so that I can better protect myself and those who come with me on my voyages, if anyone does. I will continue to monitor the pending global war which we are so much more closer to now as indicated by NASA prohibiting all cooperation with Russian scientists today. Russia is not, and should not be backing down on Crimea. American interests installed a fascist government through a violent and illegal coup, and Russia is well within its rights to defend itself militarily against aggressive action on the part of NATO and the United States; even if that action is hidden behind dozens of layers of propaganda and lies, most especially in the form of the National Endowment for Democracy (go see my edits on Wikipedia outlining the expenditures in Ukraine and Venezuela.) And the efforts of the NED; which I now believe to have been to support the aim of starting another cold war; are instead going to start a World War.
As to my comment length: nowhere is there a limit on the number of words, and I suspect that is because the people who run this site, who are vastly more intelligent and respectful and mature than these trolls, realize that sometimes, complete thoughts take a few words. No one is forcing anyone to read anything, and there simply is no reason to limit the size of comments. The fact is, people’s attention spans are too short. We live in a world where Twitter is considered a valid form of communication; a form of communication which requires you to economize where you should not – in articulating a thought clearly. How many different people will believe a single Tweet means precisely the same thing? Few, if any.
Hate me, flame me, make fun of me. Do your worst. I am used to it. I am slowly gaining the attitude that I need to have – that I live in a country populated by dead soulless beings who deserve the fate they have given themselves and the oppressive rulers they continue to elect to run their lives for them, because they are too damn lazy to do anything or even think for themselves.
Do I feel sorry for Americans?
Not anymore. After all, why should I feel sorry for a people who have shown me nothing but hatred, for no more than my gifts and my disabilities. How should I feel about a nation whose people treat the vulnerable, and those who seek to contribute to their benefit, like shit? How would you feel?
This will likely be my last comment on this site. I may yet read the stories, but only if they directly affect me or my future. I frankly don’t give a damn what happens to America. And in that way, I have become more like other Americans.
@Mike Wolf–Hi Mike thanks for the post I hope you come back to read this…I’ve been attempting to help the people understand that only Love and Truth interrelated will save the day….here’s a poem posted on the skydrive most of which you’ll agree with just type the characters into your browser—> “1drv.ms/1d0IKhY” (case counts!) Here’s a document that I originally intended as a cover letter to educators who might be interested in helping me save the planet…it did not get much interest that I know of…in fact I think I may have alarmed some people…case counts when you type—> “1drv.ms/1jPSpx8″ directly into your browser….thanks hope to chat sometime contact info within or find me on Twitter or FB
Re: my previous comment–the cover letter to educator(s) has very important footnotes!
That’s an fantastic idea, Mike.
attempt to post
Why doesn’t The Intercept report on Piere Omidyar’s role in the overthrow of the elected government of Ukraine?
To my knowledge, The The Intercept is doing no reporting on matter pertaining to Ukraine per se. Primarily, reporting here continues to be about the NSA until the actual, final First Look site is up.
But one would hope that it reports on all the major stories having to do with geopolitics, right? I don’t believe there’s any other digital magazine planned by First Look that would fill that void.
I’m actually wondering if it’s not possible for there to be information in the tranche that was given to GG regarding this, or other coups like it, and the methods used to partake in them (especially vis a vis the use of surveillance) — even a lot of the Svoboda stuff was mostly set in place to happen years before Snowden, and thus it’s possible that there would be some revelations there… On the other hand, it would also (rather ironically, given the topic of this article (and it is a good one)) most likely be pointed at as stirring up $h1+.
(Note the complete omission of specifics — not feeding any trolls) — my question is, how could we most benefit, and the answer is ‘generically, so the patterns can be known’ and the character of the acts, on a larger scale, are revealed.
Why doesn’t the Intercept report on Gator basketball?
I’ve read that Gwyneth Paltrow is splitting from her rock star hubby of 10 years. Most disappointingly, I did not read it first at the Intercept.
Damn. Does this mean we won’t be treated to Glenn’s musings on conscious uncoupling (is she that one?)?
At least Ms. Paltrow’s travails are rooted in reality, unlike Mr. Valnetine’s febrile ranting that: “Greenwald and his propaganda machine work with the CIA, like Omidyar.”
You know, It’s perfectly possible that Omidyar is guilty of all sorts of vile stuff — and I don’t mean just eBay ;^). It’s certainly appropriate for interested parties to investigate and report. If the guilt-by-association detractors want to do that, or find and cite others who have, I imagine lots of folks here will read the reports with interest.
Spamming and trolling the comments section here, however, is a game for losers; the moment decent software is deployed, they will all be consigned to the Land of the Ignored, where only they will read each other’s posts.
Greenwald and associates, meanwhile, seem to be doing what they always do, which is very good work indeed. If some billionaire-bucks are funding the project, well, it’s a much better use of money than most.
@Doug S–> they will all be consigned to the Land of the Ignored, where only they will read each other’s posts…will the NSA++et al. try to influence the process of consignment?
@Doug Valentine –
I would very much like to see any links to evidence supporting this statement. Not that it may not be true, just that you’ve provided no support for it. With that said, per the Intercepts “About the Intercept” page:
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/about/
Regards, Sillyputty
you should learn how to use the internet, google Omidyar Ukraine, that may be hard, and it may be easier to make me do it, but you should learn to do yor own research, not ask like the typical I assume privileged millenial girl -Yes, in the annals of independent media, this might be the strangest twist ever: “According to financial disclosures and reports seen by Pando, the founder and publisher of Glenn Greenwald’s government-bashing blog,“The Intercept,” co-invested with the US government to help fund regime change in Ukraine. “http://pando.com/2014/02/28/pierre-omidyar-co-funded-ukraine-revolution-groups-with-us-government-documents-show/
Thanks for the reply Doug, and also the link you provided to the Pando article.
I read the article that you referenced several weeks ago, and did not agree with conclusion that it reached, due it being based too much on inference on not enough on facts.
If you do have other links that support your claim (I have looked and cannot find any) please let me know.
Regards, Sillyputty
Quoting Pando? Do you know how often they’ve been dead wrong regarding Greenwald and the NSA? They frequently just make stuff up and don’t even apologize after they’re proven wrong.
Because it’s a non-story, perhaps? There are undoubtedly lots of people who give money to the NED and to USAID — indeed, a lot of people who work for those organizations — with good intentions in mind, and without understanding that they are tools of imperial domination. I would hope that Mr. Omidyar has now taken steps to learn about these organizations, and that he doesn’t repeat his mistake in the future. For now, he can be given a pass.
@Jose… good point. Haven’t we ALL donated to some cause than turned out to be less than what it purported to be? I know I have – doesn’t keep me from donating, just keeps me on my toes. Nothing and no organization is perfect – and I prefer to trust that Mr. Omidyar put his money where his heart/mouth was. There’s no crime in that. And only he is entitled to regret or defend where he spends his money. Not GG, not TI … and not just because “haters” are accusing him of some nefarious conspiracy with the U.S., the Ukraine, Ed Snowden, or any combination of them or “all of the above”. Innocent until proven guilty – without proof of some such conspiracy it’s just horseshit!
It has. Greenwald did a piece a while back which covered the subject nicely.
You may now return to your Troll Station games.
Barton Gellman tweeted on Saturday morning that this is “not news” because of http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/for-nsa-chief-terrorist-threat-drives-passion-to-collect-it-all/2013/07/14/3d26ef80-ea49-11e2-a301-ea5a8116d211_story.html
Good job. Keep it up.
It is my understanding that the Intercept engages in pre-publication negotiations with US Security officials and complies with request to omit country of location information from stories.
I think it is really bad policy and practice to allow NSA prepublication review to essentially black out country of location information.
That is WAY TOO BROAD to protect sources and methods.
Can you please link to the information that informs your understanding that this is Intercept policy please?
Here is a link to a discussion between Gellman, Greenwald and Poitras moderated by Roger Cohen.
http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/mccutcheon-decision-campaign-finance-040214
The question of pre-story vetting was posed to each of them and my take on how it is conducted and what percentage of requests were heeded was significantly different from yours. Hence my request to you for links supporting your conclusion.
Thanks.
Greenbeck has repeatedly said he checks with the CA to make sure he doesn’t blo agents’ cover. Why don’t you do your own research Pedinska?
You are incorrect, Mr. Valentine. In point of fact, Greenwlad has repeatedly said he has never spoken to the U.S. government about NSA documents and their publication. Rather, the editors and/or lawyers for the publications(s) do that.
And 99% of the time, according to Greenwald, the government’s objections are overruled.
spoken like a true millenial girl, his lawyers represent him, just like he represents his clients, shyster language doesn’t change the facts, Greenald and his propaganda machine work with the CIA, like Omidyar
I would very much like to see any links to evidence supporting this statement. Not that it may not be true, just that you’ve provided no support for it.
Regards, Sillyputty
Glenn himself has stated (not positive if here, but surely at Guardian) that he submits pre-publication draft to US security officials review and that changes are made based on their review, including country of origin.
If I am wrong on that, Glenn can simp,y jump in and clarify exactly what his pre-publication review procedures are and what criteria and factors he applied in consideration of and response to government secrecy and redaction requests.
Accountability is a bitch, and it cuts both ways.
Sorry, I should have stated that this reply was to Pedinska.
Greenwald got his clock cleaned.
http://chris-floyd.com/component/content/article/1-latest-news/2381-cartoons-and-cueballs-an-exchange-with-glenn-greenwald.html
Thanks for this link as I am a huge fan of both Chris and Glenn. I do think that the lengths Glenn goes to in the early stages to note why he is responding are important:
Hey Chris – I’m visiting “these run-down precincts” to address a couple points you’ve made here and elsewhere because, as you know, I’ve respected your work for a long time, and that hasn’t changed despite the barrage of intense (and, I think, often unfair) criticisms you’ve directed at me over the past several months. I’m sure I’ll be attacked for responding here on the grounds that it shows how “thin-skinned” or “obsessed” with criticism I am or whatever, but I prefer that to being insular, non-responsive and unaccountable, which are the adjectives I think apply to those who ignore criticisms simply because they can. I actually do believe that one responsibility that comes from doing things that affect others is that you engage rather than ignore valid criticisms that are made in good faith, even if those criticisms aren’t made in some huge media venue.
Nobody contests your right to criticize how I’ve reported these leaks, or the propriety of voicing such criticisms, nor should Edward Snowden be immune from being criticized. To argue against any of that is to engage a strawman. I’m personally glad that at least a small fraction of the critiques I hear come from the pro-transparency left rather than the trite, predictable, dreary sloganeering of the pro-national-security-state authoritarians about how we’re Endangering Lives and Helping the Terrorists. I’m glad that the uber-nationalistic fear-mongering about our actions from the Michael Haydens and David Frums of the world at least have some counterpart, even if much less amplified, in the form of “publish-more!” missives from the Chris Floyds.
—————————
I think Glenn is at pains to clarify why he thinks the debate is important and why he’s willing to engage Chris’s criticisms. I don’t really think that translates to getting his “clock cleaned.”
BTW, does anyone know if the old Guardian-esque script works here (would blockquote be
Okay, clearly not that. Back to the drawing board for how to block-quote, etc.
Blockquote is the same as it is at the guardian. bold is “strong” instead of “b” I’m not sure about some of the others, such as italics.
Italics is “em” or emphasis.
Minion – I too am longtime readers of both writers, but, must disagree.
Glenn got a much needed comeuppance – I’d say he definitely got his clock cleaned.
We’ll have to respectfully disagree. I think CF got his back up over the anonymity reference when it was perfectly clear to me that Glenn was switching back and forth between generalized comments and particular ones. It’s precisely because everyone knows, including and especially Glenn, that Chris always writes under his name that it was abundantly clear that in that paragraph, Glenn had segued to addressing the many critics who hide behind anonymity, and it was clear he wasn’t including Chris in that group.
Glenn pays Chris a dozen compliments in the course of the long exchange, so I’m not sure why that “charge,” when it wasn’t directed at Chris, per se, stuck. Glenn clearly makes the case for why this method of releasing the documents is important, and did so with great respect for Chris, who is the one who comes across as thin-skinned here.
—————–
Thanks Kitt and Pedinska…will keep trying to get the hang of this. Happy gardening to you, Pedinska; thought of you as the snow fell on Saturday. Hope you didn’t get clobbered the way we did.
Hope you didn’t get clobbered the way we did.
Only got something less than an inch and that fell after rain. It all had melted by mid-morning next day. It was good because we had gotten lettuce, spinach, peas and radishes planted the day before, so this was just Ma Nature watering everything in.
Indeed. It was absurd for Chris to spill all that ink on the issue of Twitter and anonymity when it was clear Glenn was not addressing Chris on that, or accusing him of writing anonymously.
As for his extensive description of Glenn’s very early positive assessment of George Bush, WTF? Chris pretends to bring that up in the context of his fearlessly writing against Bush from the outset and receiving subsequent threats, but the transparent purpose was to distract from current matters pertaining to publication of the Snowden docs, to instead flog Glenn for a brief moment in his political past.
Christ disappointed me very much.
Yeah I think the comparison to neocon circa 2000s set Floyd off a bit. Took it off the rails. sigh…
This whole “Glenn is working for the man” thing is baffling to me. Wikileaks is our closest comparison right? The Greenwald/Poitras approach has at the very least established its tactical and strategic merit as a contrast. So there’s arguments for both sides. But where does this sense of betrayal or whatever the fuck come from? I know we’re supposed to be paranoid and self destructive out here on the left, but jesus christ this shit is getting ridiculous.
Minion – will agree with one point you make – it was clear to me that Glenn was not critical of Chris on the anonymous issue. That was directed at a specific individual – Tarzy I think.
But that was the least of what Chris took offense to in that reply and what he had previously written about objections to Glenn’s “methodology”.
Not remotely. It is ironic that Chris characterized Glenn’s comments as ad hom and sarcastic and, well, just not nice, when the opposite is the case.
Substantively, Glenn made his case and did so exceptionally well.
And now for a Mona-theistic perspective direct from the hive:
Bzzzzzz [Glenn Greenwald can do no wrong. All hail the conscience of America!] Bzzzzz
(“Substantively” speaking of course)
And now back to our regularly scheduled pre-programming (Soma and/or cool-aid will be served in the lobby during intermissions).
“Mona-theistic”
Good one, but be careful you don’t succumb to Mona-mania.
“Good one, but be careful you don’t succumb to Mona-mania.”
Lol!! Indeed.
Or, for that matter, Monachopsis
From the Intergalactic Encyclopedia of Diseases and Disorders – Time-Space-Journalism Continuum Edition©”
“
Wilhelmina, that’s brilliant:
Monachopsis:
n. the subtle but persistent feeling of being out of place, as maladapted to your surroundings as a seal on a beach—lumbering, clumsy, easily distracted, huddled in the company of other misfits, unable to recognize the ambient roar of your intended habitat, in which you’d be fluidly, brilliantly, effortlessly at home.
I note that Rancid Honeytrap, the very emblem of Anonymous Coward, and Glenn’s current number one stalker, appeared in CF’s comment threads to start a pile-on.
Chris Floyd deleted my comment. Hmmmm.
Which as you probably know by now, he explained in a reply to you, somewhat sarcastically, later on in the thread. I think the comment in question is posted. You probably should have known by the experience we’ve had with comments coming, going and coming back again or showing up late that it wasn’t Floyd’s doing that temporarily lost your comment.
Being involved in that thread has been a relatively unpleasant experience, and Floyd, in his article, does, in my opinion, waste an awful lot of words accusing Glenn of things that he did not write. But deleting comments that might point that out or disagree with him in some other way is not what I would expect at all from him.
Woops, my bad. :(
Floyd’s first post was garbage. Why bother with the follow-up?
Kandutsch: Also hard not to notice that while Floyd and Silber criticize Greenwald and Snowden for not being sufficiently radical, it’s the latter duo and not the former who are forced to live in exile abroad.
Floyd: As for the meat of the matter, I take Mr. Kandutsch’s point entirely. No one who is not facing “great risk to their person” should criticize in any way the methods or financial backing of anyone who is. […] And this is the lesson Mr. Kandutsch imparts: do not criticize anyone who might be in danger, if you yourself are not in danger. Whatever they do is beyond reproach, while the slightest demur you might make is just the whining of a snarker (or the snarking of a whiner) sitting in his bunker.
Greenwald: Again, nobody contests your right to criticize me, or Snowden, or anyone else involved in this matter. Nobody thinks you should have to first take similar risks yourself in order to have a perfect right to criticize. What we’re doing is public and has an effect on others, so everyone has the full right to articulate whatever criticisms they have, no matter what they have or have not done themselves. [Kandutsch] was addressing one particular line of attack: the notion that Snowden’s actions (and ours as well) are insufficiently radical, cowardly, too subservient to the state, etc. etc. That’s the critique for which I harbor particular scorn when voiced by people who refuse to take any risks themselves.
Having read a lot of Glenn’s posts, I thought this one was quite reasonable and that it was Chris Floyd that took it much more personally than he should have. However, I speak from the perspective that the slow drip release of the documents is the diligent and proper way to do it.
With that said, Chris does accuse Glenn of the very “imputation and insinuation,” which he consistently commits.
“With that said, Chris does accuse Glenn of the very “imputation and insinuation,” which he consistently commits.”
———————–
Well said. I agree completely. In fact, I was surprised that Chris, who usually seems to have quite a finely attuned sense of tone and intent, was so invested in looking for criticisms when the ones he latches onto clearly weren’t directed at him. Glenn’s rancor for journalists who anonymously attack him, clearly wasn’t direct at Chris who posts under his name.
I can understand the arguments of both camps. The slow drip seems quite effective in keeping the story in the news, and the impact it has had is not insignificant.
On the other hand, there’s a sort of boiling frogs effect, where new revelations — no matter what they are — don’t surprise anymore. I’m also a believer in the open source maxim that says “given enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow.” Meaning that there are probably significant details in the documents that the staff of TI by itself might not notice, but if thousands of people were analyzing them, who knows what sorts of insights or revelations could arise.
A time might come when it makes sense to just release all the documents, with minimal redactions.
Right. Not only does it keep the subject on our minds, but it can create a bit of NSA revelations fatigue for those who aren’t following this as closely as others. I found myself quite irritated when TI published the “Ask Zelda” article because it did not strike me as something we MUST know about. PRISM, metadata, TURBINE, and others are the critical pieces, not the NSA’s version of “Dear Abby.” Even though that was immediately followed by the awesome TURBINE article, I felt the Zelda article cheapened what Snowden really intended to get out there.
Jose, you consistently make good points, and I think GG, Poitras & Co. have done this to some unknown degree, having given documents to the Washington Post on PRISM, MYSTIC, and some other stuff so far. I also think the fact that, even with the WP’s huge amount of resources, they are still slow to report tells us that those publishing are taking this very seriously and covering all their bases. However, I hypothesize that GG’s general mistrust of traditional news media ( Luke Harding’s book “The Snowden Files” said that Glenn wasn’t exactly pushing for the NYT to receive documents, and that it was The Guardian who pursued that) has resulted in his being a bit overprotective of the documents and contributing to the slow publication rate. Glenn responded to one of my posts last week saying that organizations like Der Spiegel only get to review and publish documents if approved by the documents’ custodians (GG, Poitras, others?). I think Glenn needs to take some more risks by expanding the distribution chain for the Snowden documents and actually giving full control of the document publication to other news entities.
I don’t know what methodology was used, but if in their shoes, I think I would have: 1.) attempted to inventory the documents into subject areas, 2.) established a list of trusted news organizations or indivduals , then 3.) began passing them out as GG sees fit. So instead of just allowing NBC to view and report on some documents as happened a month ago, maybe NBC’s national security folks get all the contents related to TURBINE. Maybe GG gives all the MYSTIC documents to the Washington Post, the metadata documents to the Associated Press, BOUNDLESS INFORMANT to James Bamford, Upstream Collection to Pro Publica, and maybe some documents smaller outlets such as CNET, Wired. Therefore, you not only get more eyes analyzing the data, but in the process establish respective subject matter experts. It would be beautiful, the entire media establishment carefully publishing documents and all the NSA could do is watch.
That is easy for me to say though – as Glenn noted – he made promises to Snowden and my methodology would require giving up control over documents he was entrusted with and allowing other organizations to frame the message. But on the other hand, GG said last week that Snowden no longer controls publication. The contradiction certainly adds confusion.
Snowden has never had control of publication. There is no, “no longer” about it. What are you confused about? What is the “contradiction?”
Yeah Kitt – the guy who took the docs and had a strong opinion on how “they should and should not be published” had no control over publication. Spare me your semantics. It is called “substance over form.” He took the document trove fully expecting that some would be published.
With your rationale, I guess Daniel Ellsberg and Thomas Drake had no control over publication either? Did they just mindlessly hand them over in some drunken haze to the NYT and Baltimore Sun, respectively expecting that the journalists stare at them for shits and giggles!?
Has Edward Snowden published one single solitary document, Nate? Just one? Any at all? No?
That’s not “semantics,” Nate, that’s fact. Edward Snowden released the documents without ever publishing a single document. He, at no time, had control of publication of the documents, unless you count downloading to the internet prior to Greenwald, Poitras, Gellman — which he didn’t do – as “control of publication of the documents.”
It’s semantics because I am not saying he literally published the documents as you are now implying I saidbut that he had some CONTROL over what was published. When the initial PRISM and Verizon stories broke, they had been written in Snowden’s hotel with his input. To say he had no control is to imply he was some mindless drone.
The problem of both Greenwald and Floyd is overthinking things. Journalists simply aren’t equipped to perform analysis or understand the meaning of what they report. That is why the objective style of journalism – here is what I’ve been told to say, make of it what you will, since I certainly don’t understand it – is really the only valid method of reporting. True objectivity is grounded in ignorance.
Greenwald should obviously return all documents to the US government, and then ask politely if there is anything in those documents that they’d like him to report. I believe they would be quite reasonable and perhaps allow him to report on how the Iraq war could not have been such an astounding success without the vital assistance of the NSA.
No need. They already assigned that task to the LA Times.
That story could have been Greenwald’s. He’s blowing it.
I agree Mr. Mussolini.
Common sense has been nearly eradicated by intellectualism.
That mass ignorance is actually a desirable consequence in advancing your sterling governmental model is noted.
bene bene
This argument exemplifies why things remain the same when change could come more quickly: You bicker amongst yourselves, when you should be working together.
Best regards, Sillyputty
Um, no. Not even close.
Ouch!!! Slain with ones own words….
How so, Mona?
Perhaps it would have been better expressed had I more clearly said that the contention “between Glenn Greenwald and Chris Floyd”exemplifies why things remain the same in order to make the broader point that when we “bicker amongst ourselves [we] would be better served if we were working together.
Hence the idea that this exemplifies why things remain the same when change could come more quickly should those, even though they disagree on some things, work towards a common goal rather than against one another.
For even more context: that Glenn defends his position, as is his right and as he should whenever feels he needs to, and that Chris Floyd should express his views in the same way, is a given.
“A conservative movement says hold on to what you’ve got, don’t change what’s working, be cautious about all changes to the society. …The libertarian aspect of the Republican Party is presently the only useful political voice really in the U.S. Congress. It will be the driver that shifts the United States around.”
-Julian Assange
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WWhEJSgA74#t=150
Note to congress: stop stealing our $$$-> take a good look at wwwDOTopencongressDOTorg/bill/hjres104-113/show Julian Assange is right!
I would not have a problem with Snowden if the only info released were what deals with American citizens. Information was released dealing with foreign countries which in turn hurts our relations with these countries.
No question that we need better protection for whistle blowers but we also need to do a better job determining what should be released.
It dawned on me this morning, Mr. Glenn, just how related this news really is to Dan Froomkin’s chosen headline of 10 day ago – and intel’s Litt claiming they want to stop journalists’ “drunk driving.”
And may I also compliment you on the first 4 headline words you chose, however inadvertent.
Alexander should be tried for treason. Apparently? He doesn’t care about our Constitutional rights or our privacy. The Intercept is the best new website for anyone who wants truth. Just read that Glen is up for an award, regarding the NSA leaks. FANTASTIC! Remember to mention Ed Snowden. The man without a country. Thanks to “transparency” Obama and his cronies. Just gets worse and worse…
I just read over at Rolling Stone that you folks are getting Matt Taibbi. I’m already becoming a fan of The Intercept but your credibility just went up about 100 more notches. Taibbi’s work is superb. I’m looking forward to some excellent investigative reporting.
Just added The Intercept to my bookmarks.
The next time that you are “over at the rolling stone” remind yourself of the fact that they routinely censure commentary so that it can never see the light of day.
That hasn’t been my experience.
I understand that Taibbi has a different administrative structure over here.
That will be necessary, because Taibbi’s work – contrary to Glenn’s – poses serious challenges to the Owner’s ideology and billionaire interests.
As is always the case, the work will speak for itself. Not unlike how comments often reveal the personal biases and conflicting interests of their authors.
The work will speak for itself only if it’s published for others to read.
Tater – my prior comment seems to have evaporated, so let me ask again.
What authors and what biases do you refer to? Not good practice to put innuendo in a reply.
I resent that anonymous BS.
Taibbi knows who’s buttering his bread. It’s possible he was hired to be kneecapped, but IMO being a reformist capitalist doesn’t pose much threat to, well, to anybody. But the billionnaires may think otherwise.
My point was only to contrast Taibbi with Greenwald with respect to political economy and the contradictions and challenges that Tiabbi’s framework poses for Omidyar.
Credit where its due; disclosing a Top Secret programme is an improvement on exposing your own deep cover agent because her husband wouldn’t tell lies in pursuit of war.
Debris from flight 370 has been found in the Maldives, after investigators were led away from sightings of the airliner there the day it went missing.
http://www.lost370.com
Shortly after the Washington Post was purchased by Amazon king the CIA gave them a $600 million dollar contract and now the Post seems to be serving as the mouthpiece for the creeps.
WAPO has always been a stooge for the CIA.
There has to be a good reason why the other Internet 1.0 billionaire passed on the opportunity to inform a nation, yea the world, complete with a daily WMATA heavy rail tabloid express edition component.
But rather started up a firstlook.org/theintercept with this auspicious, tranquil and modestly funded beginning that only budgeted so much for a prevailingly Glenncentric glorified blog.
…with a really evolved filtering process.
…with a really evolved commentariat filte-… process.
The NSA blows… what? >;)
When the NSA or some military general talks about spying on enemies that are trying to attack us he is referring to countries that want to defend themselves from US covert military and or economic attacks and takeovers. When he talks about leaks putting agency personnel in danger he means leaks putting agency personnel in jail or public disgrace.
@Alan479—the other thing the NSA++et al hates is budget cuts…take a look–> type “1drv.ms/1eULayq” into your browser (case counts)
I really wish there were some way to get Citizen Snowden elected to high office.
Didn’t you get the memo? If you embarrass this government, not only will they revoke you passport (mid flight) but they will indefinitely detain you- they’ll kill yer ass without due process by mechanical robot flying assassin and they will continue to torture- at sites unkown (until later, after they’re all dead).
The only way for Snowden to enter this land again is for this present state to be in smolders.
“I welcome their hate”- Franklin Delano Roosevelt.
“They had begun to consider the Government of the United States as a mere appendage to their own affairs. We know now that Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob.”
A side comment from Roosevelt that is interesting given the present day situation
Marcy Wheeler is hot on the antics if Vice Admiral Mike Rogers: “James Clapper Confirms VADM Mike Rogers Needlessly Obfuscated in Confirmation Hearing”
Marcy reproduces Rogers’ relevant testimony here: http://www.emptywheel.net/2014/04/01/james-clapper-confirms-vadm-mike-rogers-needlessly-obfuscated-in-confirmation-hearing/
And yet you have a league of ‘progressos’ who defend this bullshit. Oh, I know, since I’ve suspended from comment at the “Democratic Underground” for stating the truth. You take notice of one acne pimple on Obama’s ass and a virtual fleet of O’bots will attack you like bot flies.
Ironic, when you realize I have posting privileges at Hot Air- a redneck conservative blog and haven’t been asked (or told) to leave. Why? I only engage on civil liberties. I’m leaving them redneck social issues alone- is you cray cray?
This carefully constructed ‘hive’ mentality only works if your scared enough. I’m not. Fuck this.
How is it ironic that you still have posting privileges at a conservative blog. By now it should be obvious to you that progressive leftists commonly are history’s restrictors of the free flow of political information.
Knee-jerk dogmatists, of any stripe, are the danger to a free and open society. All those who believe information must be suppressed for “the good of (the nation, freedom, peace, etc.) ” are the problem. And those types come in many forms across the political spectrum. And in fact, most of the serious “progressive leftists”, like Marcy Wheeler, Amy Goodman, etc. decry this lack of transparency and government overreach. Its really the “moderate” O-bot types that are guilty in this particular case (along with many fear-mongering right wingers who hate Snowden as well).
Ah, so now it’s been reluctantly conceded it’s not really the conservative right wing, but rather it’s the moderate obot.
But definitely not the progressive left. Got it.
“The Democratic Underground may have appropriated the word Democratic for their moderate fascism, but were they democratic either?” -from The Equal States, 2020 to 2050, 2nd Edition
Well considering Snowden was celebrated by FOX News in a series of pieces on GG in 2013, it can’t be FOX News.
And considering that the neocons are leftist Republicans seeing as they are literal progeny of Bolsheviks who arrived in Mexico City after 1917, and that neo- means ‘new-,’ ‘improved-,’ ‘progressive friendly-,’ ‘reproductive rights ‘with-it’-,’ then you can’t mean them.
So given that the paleos, libertarians are on board with Snowden–exactly which right are you referring to, Yankee Frank?
I am curious how your commentary is responded to when it runs contrary to Hot Air heroes.
You clearly don’t need me pointing out that red neck sites are happy to publish derogations of democratic leadership.
On the other hand, if you were to go after Rove, Ailes, Murdoch, Adelson, Koch, Cheneycorp… I wonder.
Thanks for the link Mona – per Marcy’s article:
I’d propose that the level of comfort that the American people should have in any matter be determined, first, not by the Directors of spy agencies or their contractor minions (whistleblowers aside), but by answering questions about already unclassified documents promptly and without equivocation, and further by insisting that those same representatives get off their collective asses and do their jobs of oversight more forcefully on our behalf.
Yep. Good proposal! In the Rogers quote if you substitute enrage for engage, it would make more sense, no?
I’m with Marcy:
He won’t give honest, straightforward answers to senators on unclassified programs. Imagine how forthcoming he’ll be on the classified ones. Just pushin’ the limits to say what he can. Pfffft.
Severe ethical indignation, when repeatedly applied as needed, has proved to be an effective prophylactic against the spread of such behavior. I have seen it work.
Acquiring testicular fortitude from our elected representatives on an ongoing basis, on the other hand, may require a much more broad-spectrum treatment approach, methinks.
@John Kelly –
That’s a great observation; and most likely what it will take: more rage.
This does deserve a nice “(insert: on-topic apropos pun here emoticon)” but apparently the manufacturer of such has completely run out of stock…
: )
Unfortunately, Marcy Wheeler’s writing style creates as much obfuscation as her content exposes.
Its not her writing style, its the fact that she is dealing with lots of legalese and very complex subjects with lots of different interpretations and documents that contradict each other and create real confusion over what “policy” or practice is in any given case. And she’s trying to tease it all apart and make sense of it — not an easy task.
It used to be that only the most elite academics would be afforded the opportunity to “debate” themselves into messy-hair-inducing semantically-driven insanity. Now this right is afforded to all. (see: what is propaganda? am i doing it now?)
Is this a good thing? Obviously a silly question, but why?
No, there is nothing but propaganda, for there is no such thing as objectivity. The only thing we must agree upon is when force is being used, and when it may be used. The rest must be left for individuals to accept/deny/believe/decide/etc. for themselves. Force is defined in relation to rights, so the rights are the definitions we must first agree on. Involuntary infringement upon those rights then constitutes force, and if we are to accept that the force of involuntary infringements by one (or many) upon the rights of another is a necessary aspect of society, then those rules must be as clearly defined as possible, and their limits must be respected and enforced to the greatest degree possible.
Otherwise we end up with our own government spying on our every move, infecting our computers with malware, telling us what we can or can not eat, or smoke, or have sex with, because human beings are not worthy of being granted with power in the general sense. They are not really worthy of being granted power in even the most limited sense, because they can not help themselves but to abuse it. It is not possible. But again, if we’ve come to the decision that the limited granting is necessary, it must be done so with the full understanding that those being granted are not worthy, and will, whenever and wherever they are allowed, abuse it.
That screams term limits to me but I accept that that’s debatable. It also screams extra super-duper infringements of the rights of those being granted the power as a pre-emptive check on their own inevitable abuses of others.
I should far more be able to fly a drone into Dianne Feinstein’s vagina than she should be able to hover one 3 million miles over my head on the taxpayer’s dime…. certainly that is the case as long as no warrant is involved. with a warrant we would need to get into specifics.
Saying that “there is no such thing as objectivity ” is pure nonsense. What is wrong with this statement?:
“Two plus two equals five”
This is not a trick question.
The establishment encourages you, the reader, to get mad at:
Men
Women
Republicans
Democrats
Communists
Capitalists
Commenters
Activist journalism
Racism
Sexism
The uneducated
The overeducated
Jews
Christians
Muslims
etc
Now, all these groups of course indeed need to be periodically tested for honor, integrity. Trust no one. But this doesn’t mean raging at the particular aspect of the poor proletariat which most bugs you, while leaving mostly uninhibited the corrupt establishment which disenfranchises all of it.
But notice the establishment itself, as a cohesive easily-identified unit (the corporatist, military state) which defends itself with both militarized policing and with deceitful propaganda, is not on the list! Funny, that. And notice how rarely you, the reader, challenge it directly. The last substantial challenge was the (perhaps unfortunately over-theatrical) “Occupy movement,” and after the kicking they received America became rather sensibly terrified of protesting systemic corruption at all.
The fear of challenging* the establishment is indeed understandable, and those who do it anyway are remarkably brave in my opinion. Excluding those fights we engage in when being obviously trolled, we fight among ourselves possibly because we are frustrated at not being able to even begin to remedy the largest voice in the culture – the establishment media – and this anger seeks its ‘safest venting,’ as it were. Perhaps in truth we dare not really stir our overlords, at all, though many of us talk a good game.
*I believe only in non-violent protests and do not condone coercion or force.
@Cindy –
Very salient points, Cindy. The misdirected anger found both on here and in the “real world” is tiresome and counterproductive.
We need to elect (hire) better representatives; do a better job at managing those we elect; and humanely yet fiercely cast out those that aren’t doing the job that we ask of them.
Regards, Sillyputty
It isn’t on the list because the creator of the list – yourself – did not put it on there. Funny, that.
Of course I composed the list, to illustrate a point! I meant that the list comprised establishment-permitted subjects of anger, and I say to you directly that establishment outlets systematically distract from direct confrontation viz their activities.
If you think the corporatist militarism of the state does indeed allow criticism, please demonstrate that.
I concur. Have fumbled at expressing similar observation.
“Look!” over there….”
the whole apparatus of feeding stories and the curious timing of same… is but one facet of consciousness shaping process
To that end I think it’s instructive that the term that best describes the current establishment, Neoliberalism, has yet to puncture mainstream political discourse. As Andrew Bacevich says, there is a “tacit consensus” in Washington, a shared ideology between the ruling interests of both parties, but it’s conspicuously unengaged as a dominate system of thought, let alone the relevant alternatives. Joe Bageant used to say if you don’t have the vocabulary to describe a problem, you’re not in any position to solve it. Well…
http://billmoyers.com/2014/02/21/andrew-bacevich-on-washingtons-tacit-consensus/
@cindy please do not miss james Corbetts divide and conquer http://www.corbettreport.com/divide-and-conquer-politics-and-the-leftright-fraud
To me this means that the more pages of classified matertial they have, the more embarrassing stuff that they have done.
There seems to be no way to post a comment? At least mine do not post. What is the key? Is it a secret?
Study history, study history. In history lies all the secrets of statecraft.
Winston Churchill
I have but found nothing about posting at Intercept!
BREAKING IN GUARDIAN: “NSA performed warrantless searches on Americans’ calls and emails – Clapper”
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/01/nsa-surveillance-loophole-americans-data
(We knew this, of course.)
Yes, we knew. ;^) And there just ain’t nuthin like evidence and admissions (against interest? confessions?) to secure that knowledge.
Thanks, Mona. Off to the Graun. . .
“Impartiality is a myth, a construct of the powerful”.
https://www.michigandaily.com/opinion/michigan-color-myth-impartiality?page=0%2C0
hat tip @MaxBlumenthal
From Tom Paine to Glenn Greenwald, we need partisan journalism
by Jack Shafer
If Greenwald is a “propagandist,” he’s in good company, and may many more bloom who are adversarial to government and corporate power.
“Greenwald’s collaborations with source Edward Snowden […] a rip in the time-space-journalism continuum”
“If Greenwald is a “propagandist,” he’s in good company” – Mona
Honestly Mona, “a rip in the time-space-journalism continuum”? This is how you choose to battle the perception the Glenn Greenwald is a propagandist? (No snark intended nor needed). What is Jack Shafer going to say when he witnesses the 10th dimensional chaos that results from the release of the remaining 99%. I hope that he has a good thesaurus. Or, a fully paid subscription to DC Comics online.
Ok.
How do you read an entire comment post like that, which has a clear theme and point, and then completely miss and even turn on its head what the point and theme were? The point of the piece, and Mona’s reason for posting it, were about the framing of the word “propagandist.” It wasn’t about “battling the perception” it was about, well…, the piece speaks for itself.
“The point of the piece, and Mona’s reason for posting it, were about the framing of the word “propagandist.” It wasn’t about “battling the perception” it was about, well…, the piece speaks for itself.”
I respectfully disagree. What Mona was attempting to do is further the perception that Glenn Greenwald’s habit of using journalism as a vehicle for political activism is traditional and therefore non-controversial. Whether you agree with this position, or not, that was her intention. It would have been a lot more honest and direct to simply make her own case, and then defend it with logic as need be. I, among many, am torn on this issue. Imagine what could have been gained with a healthy, respectful exchange of competing opinions between Mona and myself. As I have internalized this debate for some time, I believe that I could taken either side and made a case. Not everyone is on the same page. “OK”
I’ve not seen any evidence that you are interested in making or having “a healthy, respectful exchange.” That’s my honest opinion based on what I’ve seen from you dating back to The Guardian.
“I’ve not seen any evidence that you are interested in making or having “a healthy, respectful exchange.” That’s my honest opinion based on what I’ve seen from you dating back to The Guardian.”
Maybe that is because you and yours have been too blinded by your own bias to understand the guiding principles that have always governed my participation. You are always so intent on proving you are right, or that your perceived opposition is always wrong, that there is never any consideration for the type of consensus that can emerge from an honest exchange of competing perspective. The proof of this is in the way that you reflexively attack the character of anyone to whom you take clear exception; shall we review your participation for proofs of this statement? Take this, your latest response, as a case in point. You have made a patently false blanket statements that I could prove is patently false with a brief review of my guardian archive. Even in the doing however, you would never admit that you are wrong – as you are too emotionally invested in the ever-divisive modus operandi that inevitably emerges from groupthink, regardless of ideology. Thus the formula for perpetual ignorance and division remains intact.
No, that’s not the case. If that were the case — which as I’ve stated only moments ago that I see that to be the opposite of reality — you wouldn’t have written the glowing example of your “guiding principles” that I, only a half hour or so ago, posted my comment/reply to you about.
I can’t help but include that your sentence alone is enough to cause me to question your sincerity: “the guiding principles that have always governed my participation.” You do know how to elicit an eye roll or a groaner.
@Kit
I am sorry, I have absolutely no idea what this last comment means. If it is simply an attempt to repeat that which you have already said, then don’t bother. I get it. It is scary thing to think for yourself.
“Your entire comment is dimwitted in the extreme.”
The proof is in the pudding. Check in one move. It is like shooting fish in a barrel.
Kitt, I didn’t substantively reply to Marcolf because her comment was inane: Drivel about Jack Shaffer, some proposed release of 99% of the Snowden documents, and Mr. Shafer’s need for a thesaurus or comic books.
Whatevs.
Once again with the excuses, eh Mona. You set the stage for the response you got and are now using that as an excuse not to defend your actions? How convenient. When will it end?
Everything is propaganda. In particular here, today, yesterday and tomorrow.
Propaganda: The Formation of Men’s Attitudes (1965)
— Jacques Ellul
So no, Glenn is not doing that.
I agree with your statement that Glenn’s actions do not conform to this all-encompassing definition of propaganda.
Truth and knowledge are by their nature exclusive and biased. Jackeques’ argument is really a bunch of meandering pedantic.
Hey Jam,
I wonder if you would enlighten me as to what is “exclusive” and “biased” about this statement:
“Two plus two equals four”
““a rip in the time-space-journalism continuum”
OK, that is just awesome. Please continuum, Mona…If you have time, that is…and if space constraints allow…
“To the Contiinuum, and Beyond!!!” – Buzz Greenwald
Please continuum… ROFL!
You’ve seen the latest, I’m sure. James Clapper is now telling Congress that the NSA is, yes indeedy, searching Americans’ calls and e-mails w/o warrants.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/01/nsa-surveillance-loophole-americans-data
That’s not what he told Congress a year ago.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/01/james-clapper-apology-congress-erroneous-response
– – –
Blow, Gabriel, blow,
Come on and blow, Gabriel, blow,
I’ve been a sinner, I’ve been scamp,
But now I’m willin’ to trim my lamp …
Oh what a tangled web we weave,
When first we practice to deceive!
Sir Walter Scott, Marmion, Canto vi. Stanza 17.
Scottish author & novelist (1771 – 1832)
Lest we all forget (or never knew to begin with)
“You could get a journalist [at the Washington Post] cheaper than a good call girl, for a couple hundred dollars a month.” -CIA operative cited in “Katherine The Great” by Deborah Davis
“The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media.” -William Colby, former CIA Director, cited by Dave McGowan in “Derailing Democracy“
“There is quite an incredible spread of relationships. You don’t need to manipulate Time magazine, for example, because there are [Central Intelligence] Agency people at the management level.” -William B. Bader, former CIA intelligence officer, briefing members of the Senate Intelligence Committee, From ‘CIA and the Media’, by Carl Bernstein
“The Agency’s relationship with [The New York] Times was by far its most valuable among newspapers, according to CIA officials. [It was] general Times policy … to provide assistance to the CIA whenever possible.” -CIA and the Media by Carl Bernstein
The NSA (SIGNIT) is one side of the coin. PysOps is the other. Now, what Glenn is talking about is a mixed bag. What he is covering is PsyOps (information operations) in relation to revelations about SIGNIT (signals intelligence or electronic spying.)
In espionage, there are three basic means of penetrating and/or using a hostile organization to one’s advantage:
1) Turning an employee through some means such as blackmail, sex, bribery or appeal to a psychological weakness such as working on someone’s conscience or ideology and convince them to become your organization’s asset (agent/traitor)
2) Placing your own officer within the organization as an employee (spy)
3) Using psychology and disinformation to convince the organization’s staff to work to your advantage and/or commit acts against its own interests (sale)
What the previously mentioned quotes point to is, a government that has turned (subsequently mentioned) espionage technique on its own people as enemies. People trained in PsyOps (information operations) have long known this. But the wider public is still quite short on the larger picture and I don’t see people at the Post and Times, et al, being called out nearly as radically as they could be. Glenn has been a model of restraint insofar as putting the hammer to the nail in his reporting, and I’d not mind seeing these ‘mainstream’ publications held to a far greater account for their everyday habit of deliberately feeding a diet of poison to the public on behalf of intelligence agencies (in whose ‘national interest?’)
“Hostile” applies to a very small fraction of the US media. So what are you, in so many words, saying?
Hi Mike!
LOL those are old quotes, from back in the day when real human beings owned newspapers and CBS was a new organization, just a news org, can you imagine?
Not hostile anymore, no way.
Project Paperclip was a complete success!
Oh, Mockingbird. Thanks Titonwan for the gentle correction. So much spooky stuff going on, hard to keep track. Real life is more Le Carre than Le Carre.
He spelled it out clearly and your mutterings have no meaning.
HE’S SAYIN’ THE MSM is CONTROLLED BY INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES.
Can you read that or shall I make the font larger?
He appears to be saying that the MSM is composed of hostile organizations that need to be penetrated. Really? I think voluntary cooperation is mandated from the top in varying degrees from organization to organization, and that penetration by those three methods is unnecessary. Can you prove otherwise? But if you want to make the font larger, I have no objection.
Intelligence agencies that had offices in Building 7™ Mike!
Just kidding, not going there. ;)
It’s this sort of blind trust that has us in such a fix. How blissfully ignorant are you? Ever hear of Project Mockingbird?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird
Fuckin’ twit. The truth shall make you free. No, not the gas chamber walk, the fuckin’ truth. WTFU.
Thanks The Mighty Bill Owen. We can’t handle the truth, anymore.
The quote should end after the “?”
It is easy to understand:
Greenwald: 3, NSA: 0.
Come on guys, you can do better!
The term ‘hostile’ is used in reference to ‘classic’ targets. i.e. enemy states. When the 1st Amendment is become the enemy of the people via the intelligence agencies manipulation of media, government has have turned the law’s intent on its head. I don’t see what is so difficult to grasp in this regard except people not fully understanding just how long this has gone on, how pervasive it has been and the purpose it serves, e.g.
http://ronaldthomaswest.com/2014/03/25/germanys-martyrs-of-the-maidan/
If you were to read solely in mainstream media, you’d have no idea the actual who/what/why of what is actually happening in Ukraine.
Bravo!
Truth is a difficult concept for some to grasp. It interferes with a seemingly limited grasp of historical reality.
Nice to see you back Ronald Thomas West.
A couple more closing thoughts from my longer post that was apparently too much for TI’s Comments section to process:
Glenn, if this peeves you so bad, why don’t YOU and THE INTERCEPT publish the names of the countries! For chrissakes, you have the exact documents, do you not!?
Plus:
Yep, because that is ALWAYS the case and such things happen EVERY TIME!! (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faulty_generalization) Glenn Greenwald could never concede even the POSSIBILITY that shielding leaks would be done for a national security purpose. Absolutist nonsense!!
You are a moron, RussellM.
WHAT? THIS is the ‘Rustling Leaves’? Oh that makes a lot of sense now. An Obamabot™ with no courage to continue with his original moniker. Good catch.
If it ain’t RussellM, this one has the same wit and insight down. #clone
Care to be more specific on who my “clone” is?
P.S. you’re wrong, per usual.
You mean this Russell?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Z4sfBRXnC8
“…but they don’t scare me as much as Pedinska.” BA HA HA HA HA!
*Grins*
I am sure you have ready a whole set of examples where the response to a whistleblower releasing secret info was not “that”. Why not post them instead so many long rambling posts?
By the way, when you write “Glenn Greenwald could never concede even the POSSIBILITY that shielding leaks would be done for a national security purpose”, are you not doing that for which you are criticizing GG?
I am not sure what you are asking. Are you saying that I haven’t myself criticized the NSA?
Why, because he’s a troll of course.
I see two possibilities here. Either Nate is employed by the people who use this technology to bring tyranny to society or he isn’t knowledgeable enough to understand how this technology really works and can be exploited. Nate’s arguments are based on nothing but rhetoric. Nate knowingly consumes the garbage and propaganda put out without actually examining the technology they employ and its limitations.
You should be happy you aren’t intelligent enough to be a target. Look at what they did to poor Aaron Schwartz and got away with it. Please spare us and take your trolling somewhere else.
Ad hominem attacks are fun!!
Your verbal squirming only shows that you aren’t actually capable of responding to the contents of my post. You haven’t quoted or tried to refute a SINGLE thing I said. What does that say about you? And you have the nerve to accuse me of empty rhetoric, stunning.
Glenn, since you recklessly toss out the word “propagandist,” I see some value in discussing what the word means:
Glenn, the irony meter damn near hit the “Ask Zelda” end of the threshold. If I was to graph your work on a continuum based on this definition, I have a feeling it would be MUCH closer to “Propaganda” than “Impartiality.” So who are you to cast stones and critique other journalists so harshly!? Maybe you should turn your propagandist spotlight on yourself for a moment.
Actually, let’s do just that. I challenge you to find a single article written by Glenn that concedes some value or benefit derived from NSA’s programs. Like Bigfoot, I myself have never encountered one personally, but maybe it is lurking in some dark corner of the Internet.
Propaganda does not aim to elevate man, but to make him serve. – Jacques Ellul
Why is up to Glenn Greenwald, or anyone really outside of Fort Meade, the White House and the Pentagon, to impute, connote or imply that the NSA has been a force for good? Certainly they have in the sense that they have aided, in various ways, at various times — with the defence of America and/or it’s allies. At least they have within the context of common and generally accepted American values.
And without going to the trouble of finding it, I am sure that Glenn has in fact acknowledged that the NSA has some value. And if hasn’t I still no matter. Not his job. Nor yours either. Although you are of course free to continue to worship at the altar of the security state. Anything to keep you safe or something.
Because if he is going to toss around the word “propaganda” with reckless abandon, maybe he should apply it to himself. For the record, I don’t think GG is a “propagandist.” I consider him a Snowden advocate and a civil liberties advocate, meaning that it isn’t his intention to shine positive light on the NSA’s program. And he seems to acknowledge this. But what kills me is that he seems to hold all other journalists, even those on the national security beat, to his own standard as an advocate. And if they fail the smell-test, get ready for an article followed by the Twitter assault.
Say ‘polemicist’ and you’d be much closer to the mark.
The term did cross my mind :)
There’s clearly something missing in that definition. If we were to take it at face value, then every comment in this thread, including yours, are propaganda. That almost makes the term meaningless. Evidently, propaganda is a tactic used by an institution that yields significant power. Otherwise, it’s just an opinion.
That raises another issue that Glenn ignores. If you are going to throw the word “propaganda” around, you better have done your research on an author’s entire body of work. A single article doesn’t prove propaganda. As for us commenters, I don’t think that is true either because, unless we go off on irrelevant rants, the contents of our posts are dictated by The Intercept’s article. For example, where I work, a couple months back I got called a “Snowden apologist” because I defended his leaking of the metadata program and supported the program’s termination. That’s because where I work is staunchly conservative and their conversations are framed as such. Therefore, I come across as some liberal idealogue. Yet I come to the Intercept and it’s the exact opposite! And that’s because, whether most of you like it or not, this section is filled to the brim with civil libertarians who see intelligence collection in its entirety as subversive. Hence, now I am “worshiping at the altar of the security state” as Bill Owen puts it.
This is just the way it is. I may come across as some NSA lover here on TI, but that is because these TI articles are framed in such a manner that vilifies the NSA’s existence. If I dictated the writing, it would be more oriented towards finding the right degree of NSA surveillance, and therefore no more reckless “bulk collection” domestic or overseas, no more spying on our own allies’ leadership, a serious reconsideration of all the duplicative intelligence services (DIA, CIA, FBI, NSA, et al), the end of the metadata program or transfer to telecoms, reform of Section 215 of the PATRIOT Act, etc. These issues aren’t raised in TI’s articles so I don’t bring them up!
Hi Nate,
Your commentary re this article has been singularly exceptional – and the defense of your position has been brilliant. You know that you have won the battle when Glenn’s “true believers” resort to their usual defamatory tactics in effort to undermine your fact-laden, reason-based posture. I commend your composure and laud your victory. Participation of people like yourself is critical to achieving a balanced perspective. I hope that you will continue to challenge those who have enthusiastically embraced the very tactics they allegedly condemn (e.g. Propaganda, character assassination, group bullying, lying, manipulation, etc.) simply to advance and/or preserve their own reactionary group posture. What is truly sad about such behavior is that the potential good, that might otherwise arise in absence of such behavior, is now being chronically compromised by the virulent ethos of groupthink.
Thanks Wilhelmina, I appreciate the compliments and do aim to bring perspective and continue to do so. While I don’t necessarily see this as a battle to be won, I just cannot ignore Glenn’s hostile character attacks on people (in the last week he went after Tommy Vietor and Ken Dilanina, who I’d never even heard of! Before that, fellow TI author Murtaza Hussain went after some guy at the Post) I have heard many people call Glenn a “cyber bully” and I’m trying real hard not to agree with that assessment. He throws out harsh accusations that are not supported by a solid collection of facts and reasoning, and then takes to Twitter to deal with the aftermath. After all, his huge 344,000 + followers give him a nice army to go against Tommy Vietor’s measly band of 9,400 followers or Dilanian’s group of 3,800 followers. This isn’t adversarial journalism, it’s just petty! And I know GG is capable of doing damn fine work (e.g. the TURBINE article from weeks back) when he isn’t spraying venom at his perceived critics or adversaries.
Nate, I think you are correct in that a lot of Greenwald’s work revolves around representation of varied narratives, and he does not pause at the end of each article to say “Of course, this is just my own point of view or even ‘propaganda’, if you will, of which there are many. Now that I think of it, let me talk about the role of perspective in legal and political philosophy here…” He has, however, talked about his views on this topic in various places, which I respect (if he were a staunch realist with a stance like ‘Propaganda is Evil!’, then yes, I agree, such polemics would just be obnoxious).
As to being a cyber bully – I think that’s reaching. Yes, in some ways, I would also like him to conclude each article with “but the important thing to remember is that even though we disagree, we’re all part of the human race and we all love each other very much”, next to a picture of him hugging one of his dogs. Maybe the dog would be wearing a wacky hat, I don’t know – I’m prepared for a robust and even divisive debate on that point. But yes, subjectively speaking, I prefer ‘nicer’ tones when someone is speaking to me, and I can understand how the Tommys and Kens of the world would want the same. But one of the things I like about Glenn is that his devotion seems to be to good argumentation itself. Those who scoff at this idea typically do so by invoking 1) Some personal / tone based reason (even in the Chris Floyd article, for example – why 18 paragraphs on names he thought Glenn was calling him when a simple “Wait, are you talking about me or making a general point?” would have cleared it up – and you, here, using words like “went after” and “throws out harsh accusations… that are not supported” without backing that statement up) 2) They are using the ever popular ‘Let’s debate via shrieking mischaracterized talking points at one another – aha! My mischaracterized summary of your position has all sorts of problems! This is annoying but often the way things are, debates often do happen in sound bytes so maybe we *should sort of judge by who has the best / least distortable sound bytes 3) He doesn’t try to represent both sides of an argument (that one I can kind of see, but as I said, I respect the fact that he’s never claimed to do this and gives reasons as to why – whether you accept those reasons is a lengthy philosophical debate, but he’s been upfront with it.) From what I’ve observed, if someone points out an inconsistency or credible alternate viewpoint, Glenn will consistently account for it – again, within the context of his own narrative.
This was all originally in a single post but TI comment filter or whatever awful system they are using won’t permit it. So I continue with bite-sized pieces:
Later in the article:
More Glenn Greenwald ad-hominem attacks; these are typically referred to as “poisoning the well” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well), when “adverse information about a target is pre-emptively presented to an audience, with the intention of discrediting or ridiculing everything that the target person is about to say.” It is a tactic I hear all the time used on crappy conservative A.M. radio stations. Now maybe if Glenn’s accusation was remotely true, such a logical fallacy could be overlooked. But per usual, Glenn didn’t reach this conclusion based on any kind of in-depth analysis of the author’s work. He just recklessly insinuated it like usual. {If some of you want to do Glenn’s work for him, here’s the author’s archive, have at it! http://www.latimes.com/search/dispatcher.front?page=6&Query=Ken%20Dilanian&target=adv_article} But let’s just focus on the contents of Dilanian’s LA Times article, which easily calls into doubt Glenn’s ranting. How about this:
Dilanian also provided additional clarification when Alexander downplayed the impact of and selectively quoted the Presidential Task Force’s findings:
To those skeptics out there, ask yourself – would an “NSA commercial” have the opinion of a representative from a civil liberties organization? Would it point out Task Force findings that are critical of the NSA? I’d guess “no.” Lastly, this is a piece on the end of Alexander’s tenure at the NSA. What would you expect it to be about – plaudits of Snowden!?
How about we describe the title’s accusation: that “NSA Blows Its Own Top Secret Program in Order to Propagandize?” I don’t think it is accurate in the context of the L.A. Times Report. Specifically:
Followed later by:
To synopsize, Glenn accuses this Inglis guy and by extension Ken Dilanian of revealing classified Top Secret information (i.e. intercepting everything out of Iraq). However, he simultaneously qualifies his own statement by acknowledging that the WP reported on this matter last July (link included). The logical follow-up question is “how does Glenn reconcile these claims?” Glenn says the distinction is that “[The Post] did not confirm the full-scale collection capabilities the NSA had actually developed.”
How would the Post “confirm” this? What steps does that comprise of? I don’t think Glenn’s distinction holds up to even a tiny level of scrutiny. Glenn’s own link to WP article damn near mirrors exactly what this Inglis guy said (emphasis with caps my own):
In plain speak: The program titled “Real Time Regional Gateway” was used to collect the entire “haystack of data” in Iraq according to the guy who tracked the plan’s implementation (operative word “implementation”). The WP story then referred to the program as an unprecedented data collection plan that played a role in breaking up Iraqi insurgent networks “by late 2008.” There is no confusion about the Post’s lack of confirmation. This program happened!
Does that not render GG’s accusations against LA Times false!?
*How about we DISCUSS*
:)
Nice analysis of NSA’s head-cheese Clapper from The Guardian on the USA’s explanation of “Why They Done It:”
“Clapper Crap at The Guardian“
Thanks again Edward Snowden and the Intercept staff, et .al for bring this out into the light.
“Lethargics are to be laid in the light, and exposed to the rays of the sun for the disease is gloom.” ~ Aretaeus
Good article, thanks.
Glenn’s implication is clear. Based on this title, the Post was clearly just being “dutiful” to the NSA, aiding in the “propagandizing” of the NSA’s story. Who is this shill author that we should target with our stones and angrily wag our morally superior fingers at? It is Dana Priest. You may recall her as the George Polk Award winner for National Reporting for her November 2005 article on secret CIA detention facilities in foreign countries. What a friggin hack, right!? How reckless was Glenn’s comment on the WP, and by extension her? Glenn immediately caught heat from Matt Apuzzo (NYT) via Twitter and Glenn predictably attempted to separate himself from his own claim, (https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/450721471896514560), sheepishly saying:
How strange that myself and others immediately concluded otherwise. In his next Tweet, Matt Apuzzo responds: “The WaPo story you call out as being NSA propaganda is by @danapriest.” Glenn backtracks further: “1.) I didn’t call it out; 2.) I thought it was a poor article; 3.) I think @danapriest is a great journalist.” So for those keeping score at home, while the Dana Priest piece was a piece of propaganda, she’s still a great journalist! Good ol’ Glenn Greenwald: Shoot first, defend self on Twitter later.
Later in the article:
More Glenn Greenwald ad-hominem attacks; these are typically referred to as “poisoning the well” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well), when “adverse information about a target is pre-emptively presented to an audience, with the intention of discrediting or ridiculing everything that the target person is about to say.” It is a tactic I hear all the time used on crappy conservative A.M. radio stations. Now maybe if Glenn’s accusation was remotely true, such a logical fallacy could be overlooked. But per usual, Glenn didn’t reach this conclusion based on any kind of in-depth analysis of the author’s work. He just recklessly insinuated it like usual. {If some of you want to do Glenn’s work for him, here’s the author’s archive, have at it! http://www.latimes.com/search/dispatcher.front?page=6&Query=Ken%20Dilanian&target=adv_article} But let’s just focus on the contents of Dilanian’s LA Times article, which easily calls into doubt Glenn’s ranting. How about this:
Dilanian also provided additional clarification when Alexander downplayed the impact of and selectively quoted the Presidential Task Force’s findings:
To those skeptics out there, ask yourself – would an “NSA commercial” have the opinion of a representative from a civil liberties organization? Would it point out Task Force findings that are critical of the NSA? I’d guess “no.” Lastly, this is a piece on the end of Alexander’s tenure at the NSA. What would you expect it to be about – plaudits of Snowden!?
For fun, let’s turn the spotlight around at Glenn Greenwald with an exercise aimed at his most staunch supporters. I challenge you to find a single article written by Glenn that concedes value or benefit derived from NSA’s programs. Like Bigfoot, I have never encountered one personally, but maybe it is lurking in some dark corner of the Internet. Yet Glenn has the gall to call other organizations “propagandist”!? Let’s actually put some meaning behinds the word. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda):
Glenn, the irony meter damn near hit the “Ask Zelda” end of the threshold. On a continuum, your work is much closer to propaganda that it is to impartiality.
You do some non-trivial research in order to comment here. Not that there’s anything wrong with that.
I don’t see a big problem with any of what you posted, unless Dana Priest is the person who came up with the headline. I would imagine that’s not usually her job. So:
is a perfectly defensible sentence, while not necessarily reflecting negatively on Dana Priest’s journalism. In fact, the article in question is not a bad piece of investigative journalism, which actually reveals some interesting secret information, and it contains a paragraph such as the following:
Something that is missing from the article is skepticism. It describes how cell phones are targeted rather than people, but it doesn’t explore the moral and legal ramifications of this tactic. Then again, that’s why we have The Intercept.
It’s hard for me to defend that type of stuff, because I see such snarky insinuations as not having any value at all. First, they create confusion. Was Glenn taking a jab at Dana Priest? Myself and an actual journalist concluded so, but Glenn denied it when called out. The word “dutifully” may not even register when some people read Glenn’s work but for me it is glaring, because he uses such language often to paint his perceived adversaries in a negative light. It turns into an ‘us vs. them’ (aka “adversarial journalism”) and from what I’ve seen so far on TI, its use has some serious flaws.
Good point. But on the flip side, from reading this I don’t get the impression that the author is a proponent of these actions. It just comes across as providing information. We all have our preferences but I prefer dispassionate reporting that just lays out the facts and provides different viewpoints. It doesn’t insult people, it doesn’t result to logical fallacies and sexy verbiage. I read opinion too of course because they are necessary to consider other elements of such stories that you may have overlooked such as Iraqi privacy rights. However, these days, dispassionate reporting and analysis sure seem to take a backseat to bomb-throwers, distortion artists, and muckrakers. I think this specific GG article is jureally poor; it has so little value and spends so much time in attack mode that it doesn’t flesh out the very important underlying point of the difference between government approved leaks vs. unauthorized leaks.
I don’t. That’s one of the evils of standard journalism. For one, a lot of articles only pretend to adhere to that template, while clearly taking a stand. That’s a way to deceive readers, and a very effective propaganda tool.
That’s actually a problem well known by scientists. An article might interview a scientist who knows what he’s talking about, and in order to introduce “balance”, they also interview some crackpot. Readers end up with the impression that the matter at hand could go either way, even if within the scientific community there’s almost total consensus.
To each his own. I personally don’t subscribe to what I consider the Noam Chomsky, “Evil Media Cabal” (my made-up characterization) style of journalism. And here’s why: Consider this story. It is based on several linked articles such as the ones to the L.A. Times and Washington Post. I gained significantly more knowledge reading those than Glenn’s opinion on their contents. Oftentimes on these National Security articles, they’ll link to a spokesperson from the EFF or ACLU. I usually follow those to read their viewpoints, which are usually fleshed out in considerable detail. Glenn falls somewhere in between.
Hold up a second. I am not going merely for “balance” because that leads to CNN-style false equivalence. For example, in 2012, I put much more merit in Nate Silvers 538 blog than blowhard assholes on MSNBC or Fox News who were just going with their gut feeling. I am not trying to make a false compromise argument where the middle ground is correct. I patently reject that. But on issues such as the privacy/civil liberties vs. national security, there is no simple right or wrong and therefore you must be knowledgable of both sides of the argument.
I don’t think Greenwald was criticizing the WP or its reporter for reporting the story which was obtained directly from the NSA. He was criticizing the NSA for its hypocrisy. He was also criticizing the WP for consulting with the NSA before reporting stories obtained from Snowden or any source other than the NSA.
How many hours a day would you say that you spend looking for materiel with which to attack Greenwald with? 4 to 5 hours? More?
Conservative guess: 24 hours 7 days per week.
LOL, certainly not 4-5 hours per day! For this article, I’d say I spent a good hour and a half on my long response (which I later split into pieces). I read everything from the article – links included – on the bus ride to work and then typed up my response on the way home. My full commute is two hours.
While I appreciate the strong assault on corporate media outlets and television pundits claiming to report “news”, I feel most of America is still waiting to see evidence that will inspire the people to put words and ideals to action. Thanks for being on the frontlines reporting government wrong doing. So much can be accomplished in our near future to provide significant but there has to be a spark to start the fire.
…*significant change
Greenwald is a neoliberal capitalist. What “action” do you hope he would put a voice to, especially given that he works for a billionnaire who funds anti-working class “think tanks” and “democracy movements?”
Greenwald supported Citizens United, that should tell you which side of the fence he’s standing on.
You’ve posted that several times now. I suppose you do so because you think it says something, anything at all, with no context whatsoever. Of course, like most any other out of context statement of that magnitude, it doesn’t say anything at all without the context.
As far as I’ve noticed, no one so far has bothered to reply to you in the affirmative or in the negative, which is about par for how much attention you get here in general, since you’re MO is that of someone using a very limp *stick* with which to do his shit stirring, there not much purpose in replying to much of anything that you post.
But for anyone to who would repeatedly post that Glenn Greenwald supported Citizens United without including what Glenn Greenwald himself has actually written about the decision is transparently a weak attempt to propagandize his position in favor of the “I hate Greenwald” mantra.
Here is a link to what Glenn wrote about Citizens United at the time, and I’m including just a small sample of the text.
“The Supreme Court yesterday, in a 5-4 decision, declared unconstitutional (on First Amendment grounds) campaign finance regulations which restrict the ability of corporations and unions to use funds from their general treasury for “electioneering” purposes.”
“I really don’t see how things can get much worse in that regard. The reality is that our political institutions are already completely beholden to and controlled by large corporate interests (Dick Durbin: ”banks own” the Congress).”
Yes, but what you fail to mention is that Glenn was clearly wrong on this point
The ACLU also supported Citizens United, for the same reasons. So did I.
That action would be public campaign financing, and a Constitutional Amendment if necessary. As he wrote here about David Brooks’ bullshit about money in politics:
http://www.salon.com/2010/10/19/brooks_16/
@Oboe –
While it seems at first glance that the Citizens United decision was fundamentally unsound, in the aspect that giving corporations that have already bought our elected representatives more of a voice in politics, and would as a result grant them even additional power to buy even more media time than everyone else to get their propaganda out to the masses, the real answer to effective change is already at hand, but, for a variety of reasons, it just isn’t being used effectively.
Glenn (as well as Elliot Spitzer, in an article which Glenn refers to) notes that the Citizens United case is just a red-herring with regards to the fundamental reforms needed to make equal the voices of the electorate. They both say this because the solution to fixing this blatant inequity will not be found by limiting voices even more so with the First Amendment (which the Citizen United case would do), but rather will be found by using the powers that Congress, and by default, those who elect them, already have.
“What Congress Can Do But Hasn’t “
I first ran into this problem in local politics, long before the Citizen United case was even a twinkle in the corporatocracy’s eyes. This was when, in addition to outsourcing jobs overseas, the corporate interests once again began actively fighting against what had once been a relatively robust pro-union work environment.
As of today we see that the big-money interests have most of the marbles – but with that said I do agree with Greenwald and Spitzer that the fix isn’t a First Amendment issue, but rather a legislative issue – in that we must, as those who elected them, manage and as needed replace those we have hired to represent us.
It’s our ball, it’s our court, and it’s our game. So we can continue to let it be taken from us by inaction, apathy and mismanagement; or we can get back in the game and elect those representatives that will write, enact and force the oversight of the laws that we want to have on the books – and not those laws that were put there because money has talked, while all we have done thus far is walked…away.
“Elections belong to the people. It’s their decision. If they decide to turn their back on the fire and burn their behinds, then they will just have to sit on their blisters.” – Abraham Lincoln
Regards, Sillyputty
I just liked your comment of thanks to The Intercept, but I’m NOT obsessed with calling Glenn a dick, wanting his job, claiming he sucks at it — or telling him how to run the website…
Dear Mr. Greenwald,
As a reader who is still somewhat new to your style of journalism, I am stunned at how consistently and recklessly you fill your articles to the brim with insinuation, hyperbole, ad hominem attacks, and misrepresentations. Even worse, you and your “adversarial journalism” colleagues (looking at you Murtaza Hussein) toss around the word “propaganda“ in a matter that leads me to conclude you don’t even know what the word means.
Glenn’s implication is clear. Based on this title, the Post was clearly just being “dutiful” to the NSA, aiding in the “propagandizing” of the NSA’s story. Who is this shill author that we should target with our stones and angrily wag our morally superior fingers at? It is Dana Priest. You may recall her as the George Polk Award winner for National Reporting for her November 2005 article on secret CIA detention facilities in foreign countries. What a friggin hack, right!? How reckless was Glenn’s comment on the WP, and by extension her? Glenn immediately caught heat from Matt Apuzzo (NYT) via Twitter and Glenn predictably attempted to separate himself from his own claim, (https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/450721471896514560), sheepishly saying:
How strange that myself and others immediately concluded otherwise. In his next Tweet, Matt Apuzzo responds: “The WaPo story you call out as being NSA propaganda is by @danapriest.” Glenn backtracks further: “1.) I didn’t call it out; 2.) I thought it was a poor article; 3.) I think @danapriest is a great journalist.” So for those keeping score at home, while the Dana Priest piece was a piece of propaganda, she’s still a great journalist! Good ol’ Glenn Greenwald: Shoot first, defend self on Twitter later.
Later in the article:
More Glenn Greenwald ad-hominem attacks; these are typically referred to as “poisoning the well” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well), when “adverse information about a target is pre-emptively presented to an audience, with the intention of discrediting or ridiculing everything that the target person is about to say.” It is a tactic I hear all the time used on crappy conservative A.M. radio stations. Now maybe if Glenn’s accusation was remotely true, such a logical fallacy could be overlooked. But per usual, Glenn didn’t reach this conclusion based on any kind of in-depth analysis of the author’s work. He just recklessly insinuated it like usual. {If some of you want to do Glenn’s work for him, here’s the author’s archive, have at it! http://www.latimes.com/search/dispatcher.front?page=6&Query=Ken%20Dilanian&target=adv_article} But let’s just focus on the contents of Dilanian’s LA Times article, which easily calls into doubt Glenn’s ranting. How about this:
Dilanian also provided additional clarification when Alexander downplayed the impact of and selectively quoted the Presidential Task Force’s findings:
To those skeptics out there, ask yourself – would an “NSA commercial” have the opinion of a representative from a civil liberties organization? Would it point out Task Force findings that are critical of the NSA? I’d guess “no.” Lastly, this is a piece on the end of Alexander’s tenure at the NSA. What would you expect it to be about – plaudits of Snowden!?
For fun, let’s turn the spotlight around at Glenn Greenwald with an exercise aimed at his most staunch supporters. I challenge you to find a single article written by Glenn that concedes value or benefit derived from NSA’s programs. Like Bigfoot, I have never encountered one personally, but maybe it is lurking in some dark corner of the Internet. Yet Glenn has the gall to call other organizations “propagandist”!? Let’s actually put some meaning behinds the word. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda):
Glenn, the irony meter damn near hit the “Ask Zelda” end of the threshold. On a continuum, your work is much closer to propaganda that it is to impartiality. Now for the big lede, the segment described in the title of Glenn’s article!
Followed later by:
To synopsize, Glenn accuses this Inglis guy and by extension Ken Dilanian of revealing classified TS information (i.e. intercepting everything out of Iraq). However, he simultaneously qualifies his own statement by acknowledging that the WP reported on this matter last July. The logical follow-up question is “how does Glenn reconcile these claims?” Glenn says the distinction is that “[The Post] did not confirm the full-scale collection capabilities the NSA had actually developed.” But this doesn’t hold up to even a tiny level of scrutiny; Glenn’s own link to WP article damn near mirrors exactly what this Inglis guy said:
In plain speak: The program titled “Real Time Regional Gateway” was used to collect the entire “haystack of data” in Iraq according to the guy who tracked the plan’s implementation (operative word “implementation”). The WP story then referred to the program as an unprecedented data collection plan that played a role in breaking up Iraqi insurgent networks “by late 2008.” There is no confusion about the Post’s lack of confirmation. This program happened!
So that means that Glenn’s title and content are misleading at best and inaccurate at worst. If any “propagandizing” occurred, it was in July 2013, as covered by the Washington Post. Hell, the “Real Time Regional Gateway” is even mentioned on NSA’s Wikipedia page and cites the Post! So no, Inglis & Dilanian did not “blow its own top secret program.” My first thought was that Glenn was just being lazy, but it’s not that simple. He had reported on this exact story last year when it broke and sure as hell did not seem confused back then! (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jul/15/crux-nsa-collect-it-all) This means one of two things: (1) Glenn either has some memory problems, or (2) he commits hypocrisies like everyone else out there, including the ones he derides. A couple more points on this trash heap of an article:
Glenn, if this peeves you so bad, why don’t YOU and THE INTERCEPT publish the names of the countries! For chrissakes, you have the exact documents, do you not!?
Plus:
Yep, because that is ALWAYS the case and such things happen EVERY TIME!! (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faulty_generalization) Glenn Greenwald could never concede even the POSSIBILITY that shielding leaks would be done for a national security purpose.
These comments sections illustrate quite clearly why we are spied on by the NSA, why we are treated the way we are by those who believe themselves better, and why we have freedom to choose, not freedom of choice (and in part because you fail to even understand the difference.)
You are children, all of you. Each and every single one of you is an immature children. You have not been raised well by your society or your parents. You have not matured. You have not reached your physical, intellectual, and especially not your moral potential.
These boards are overrun with children who play games with our very future because they fail to understand what is going on – a fact only possible because they have not achieved their potential; which should have been compelled by society but in fact has been prevented. You are foolish, pathetic children, but I do not judge you or blame you for it because it is not your fault.
But I do fault you for your actions and attitudes, and your ignorance of an issue that is of great importance to everyone, even if you are too foolish, ignorant, or just plain stupid to realize it.
And the rest of you who sit by and tolerate this are just as guilty, if not worse.
You all deserve what you are getting. I am hopeful that Glenn can continue his work, and at this point, I for one vote that he turn off all possibility of you children being able to interfere with his work. These people are professionals who are doing you a service, and you can’t even acknowledge that sufficient to show due respect.
If Glenn gives up, if everyone else gives up, and the battle is lost – recognize that all humanity is lost. We are a dying species because we are allowing it to happen, not because it is meant to or supposed to. Dire prediction of the future are supposed to provide us with the opportunity to change our future. If you know your future is doomed, you can act to change it with foreknowledge. But you ignore that, and instead bask in the stupidity of it all, reveling, partying even in the dying of this nation and world.
You are not earning your freedom, nor your planet.
Is that what you’re always doing here, showing Glenn and The Intercept it’s “due respect…?”
We can’t all live in a vans – down by the river…
I’m fairly certain that if Greenwald bows out of this “process,” those who actually do the hard work of agitating for social change and liberation will not even notice.
Mike Wolf, at the close of your derisive and extremely insulting comments you say that you do not sit in judgment. How is that? The comments are prejudicial, and I detect immature anger in your content. And just how do I DESERVE the spying? Isn’t that position one of judgment?
You words lead me to believe you’re a fascist. I’m not, and aggressively oppose the emerging federal government because I have educated myself in history, government, and propaganda. Either way your posting is melodramatic.
Mike Wolf
Speaking as a Brit who is also a supporter of GG and what he and the others are doing, I have to say your condescending post above really doesn’t help or move matters along. So why don’t you stop scolding and do something useful.
I did take a cheap and condescending SNL / Chris Farley shot at you, Mike, and I apologize for that. But surely you must know – it was precisely because of all ‘your scolding,’ and his ‘motivational speaker’ comedy.
Bill, here in the mex st of chihuahua it´s a given that theintelligence aparatus of one country is in bed with the drug cartels of another. A truly scary situation if you happen to live there.
Thanks for that on the ground report. There is a long long history of intelligence agencies being in bed with drug cartels. Colombia, Vietnam, the list goes on. See: Gary Webb
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Webb
Looking forward to more of your insights and observations from the front lines of the phony drug war.
Very nice work Bill Owen.
Thank you.
My favorite part for a couple years now…
“On October 8, 1998, CIA I.G. Hitz published Volume Two of his internal investigation. The report described how the Reagan-Bush administration had protected more than 50 Contras and other drug traffickers, and by so doing thwarted federal investigations into drug crimes.
…
According to the report, the Contra war took precedence over law enforcement. To that end, the internal investigation revealed that the CIA routinely withheld evidence of Contra crimes from the Justice Department, Congress and even the analytical division of the CIA itself. Further, the report confirmed Webb’s claims regarding the origins and the relationship of Contra fundraising and drug trafficking. The report also included information about CIA ties to other drug traffickers not discussed in the Webb series… More importantly, the internal CIA report documented a cover-up of evidence which had led to false intelligence assessments.”
“…the report confirmed Webb’s claims…”
Thanks Bill Owen for the reminder.
The US is already killing enough people all over the world, without the ‘help’ of whistle-blowers and such. Is this what these people learn at military academies…to talk rubbish?
iBeacon from our friends at hyperglobalmegacorp.
Watch Out For iBeacon—Because It’s Watching You
http://bit.ly/1jUop6I
Thanks Bill Owen.
I have concluded that iBeacon is yet one, of many, technological homing devices….Apple product.
:) Thanks, I use Android, a Nexus 7. Very nice phone. Wonderful spying device.
We have an absolute HUMAN right to communicate in private and to have privacy. That has been taken from us and we must take it back.
A good first step is to insist that our phones be made secure, the new Black Phone from Phil Zimmerman, the PGP guy, is very promising. But as Zimmerman himself would be the first to point out, if you are targeted by the NSA, they’ll get in. Prolly with zero day exploit.
Interalia NSA can use your phone to build a 3d map of your home.
It’s too much.
Yeah….I have concluded that at this point in time, there is only one “safe” (wired or non-wired) telephone option: Low band or FM Radio with a manual encryption code
To minimize the effects of using “Ma Bell”: Speak only to relatives about trivial matters.
To minimize the effects of satellite transmission: Buy an external Camera and make sure you can turn the damn thing Off.
Sad, but true, my friend.
The Zeta’s, Mexico’s largest drug cartels manage their operations using an extensive network of ordinary transceivers using encrypted comm. Where is the NSA on this? Why are they wasting their time on social control and financial spying?
Very Interesting.
“He and his wife owned several modest properties around McAllen, including a nicely wooded ranchito with a small horse stable and a swimming pool. An American flag hung from the front porch.”
“Many details about Del Toro Estrada’s involvement with The Company remain opaque.”
Excuse me????? War on Drugs? That would be quite profitable wouldn’t it?
Unfortunately,in a cesspool of corruption,it’s hard to tell the poop from the crap.Who are the good guys?Didn’t the police go after that vigilante group trying to stop the madness?
p.s. Obama is a constitutional attorney. Are you connecting the dots yet?
Well, yeah, but Greenwald was a constitutional attorney too. ‘Course he segued and/or sambaed the hell outta there, so maybe a segue or tangent instead of a dot. ;-}
That was a comment to El B. I keep forgetting you have to release some scripts to get “reply” to actually, you know, “reply”. :-s
No worries doll … “Well, yeah, but Greenwald was a constitutional attorney too. ”
Obama is using his legal expertise to advise, influence, and exploit the Constitution, lean on Congress and breath down the Supreme Court’s neck for all kinds of crap – it serves as a shield for NSA, the previous administration (torture), or whoever else needs a major CYA. He’s rubber stamping his signature on all sorts of propaganda in their defense and to hide their criminal pasts. He’s the least transparent pres in history because he’s a Constitutional lawyer and knows how to gets away with bastardizing any law he sees fit.
Obama is using his superpowers for evil … Glenn is using his superpowers for good. I failed to make that distinction before. Felt good to get that off my chest… thx.
Glenn will be debating Hayden and “Needles” Dershowitz on May 2 in Toronto. State Surveillance — Be it resolved state surveillance is a legitimate defence of our freedoms…
Glenn’s partner will be Alexis Ohanian the co-founder of reddit. I found this a bizarre choice. I have no idea what his debating skills are, or his knowledge on these issues, but in all my readings on this matter, I have not seen him.
Tickets have been sold out for weeks.
This is going to be EPIC.
No word on whether Rob Ford will be attending or if he does if he will be in a ‘stupor’.
– See more at: http://www.munkdebates.com/debates/state-surveillance#sthash.SGRddaHz.dpuf
What are the odds that Dershowitz’ head actually explodes during the event? Do his doctors know he’s doing this?
Very high. LOL
OMFD Bill, I wouldn’t miss this for the world. They have a livestream button–do you think this will be available?
Fucking Dershowitz.
Not sure if it will be live, but these guys are big here, very professional. So I fully expect it will be available at some point.
Next step is to bring Glenn for a triumphant return to Ottawa.
I have watched Dershowitz debate, and I can never tell if he actually ever believes the misinformation and history rewrites he brings to the podium.
But I must admit that realizing that one (Dershowitz or Larry Summers for instance) can raise to the top of elite educational institutions while misinforming people en mass- is quite enlightening.
Thank you Bill Owen.
Will be watching.
FYI everybody–you have to get a basic membership (free) to see livestreaming on MunkDebates.
PI, could I ask you to tweet that a time or two as the date draws near, and remind us again here?
I marked my calendar, Mona, so I will try to remember to send reminders.
I cracked up at these clowns blowing their own capablilities while suggesting China and Russia took all Snowpee had to offer.
NSA told us they had to remove ALL computing devices Snowden had accessed AND the cables. So they put malware into plugs? DUH. I saw that on Breaking Bad, DEA dopes.
But then they KEPT insisting Russians and Chinese could still get to his data, so that meant “radio on!”
Did you hear that Jonathan? Nope, he still refuses to own a cell phone.
goog morning, GCHQ.
Why doesn’t Greenwald visit Snowden in Russia? Because he’s gay and might get beaten to death!
Glenn Greenwald is a total buffoon like Snowden. They support totalitarian regimes just to make themselves heroes to the mouthbreathing ultra left. Corporations have damaged citizens with mis-use of personal information many times and the NSA has not, we need the NSA to police corporate corruption on the internet.
http://ChipShirley.Com/
One of the things we have not heard from Obama, the NSA officials is a genuine back and forth defense of how any of this squares with the 4th amendment. Why also do the simple and straightforward words of the Bill of Rights not get more repetition in public? People get into these crazy debates about Supreme court rulings as though the clear language of the original amendment has been nullified and is not worth consideration. The words don’t change because of what some dufus on the court says, and many of the court’s rulings need to be overturned.
Had these methods of intercepting, storing and analyzing communications existed 250 years ago, there would never have been either a revolution or a constitution. So what the Constitution says is irrelevant. It was written with the presumption there is such a thing as freedom. But when everything is known, everything is subject to someone else’s approval and freedom ceases to exist. The American experiment was an interesting one, however, even if based on a faulty premise.
In reality of course, freedom was always a privilege that existed only for white, male land owners, in so far as it existed at all. In the new paradigm, no one is free and everybody is therefore equal.
I re-read your comments… Sometimes the things you say are so over my head they’re out of reach to me – but nevertheless, that’s my lack of education … but I do try hard to understand you whenever you comment. Today you said this and it struck a deep chord:
“In reality of course, freedom was always a privilege that existed only for white, male land owners, in so far as it existed at all. In the new paradigm, no one is free and everybody is therefore equal.”
— The first sentence is heartbreakingly true and shameful (well also, kingdoms and rulers throughout history have committed the same crimes – but I get your drift).
—The last sentence, when you refer to “the new paradigm” … it’s not new (to me) … the entire rest of that sentence is biblical.
FWIW … Thanks :-)
No, this is observably false. Freedom and privacy are closely related, but they are not the same concept. For example, speech is an activity performed in public; freedom of speech is the approval we give to all speech with certain narrow exceptions. Freedom IS approval. It a measure of the range of behavior we allow each other. When freedom is reduced to only privacy – if we have to hide ourselves to be “free” – that is a state of tyranny.
“But when everything is known, everything is subject to someone else’s approval and freedom ceases to exist.”
Wow! missed that one before – that’s pretty biblical as well. There comes a time (in my spiritual belief system) that we all have our very own “come to Jesus talk” … Is @Benito Mussolini a prophet? I’m probably getting a little too philosophical for my own good – but for all the twisted ironies that have been revealed on this site – something from my neighborhood was pleasantly surprising.
Oh … @barncat – I think what you said is cool too. Not sure that you care – but I mention that because between you, Mike Wolf, and Sillyputty – you all are making my day.
@barncat
You may consider the exceptions to be narrow; those who end up in jail probably consider them to be less narrow. If your speech is known to someone in authority, it is no longer free. The only factor to be determined is the size of the pen to which your speech is confined. Those in larger pens proclaim themselves to be free, but this is a relative and not an absolute freedom.
In any society (not just those arbitrarily designated as tyrannies) you can escape the boundaries providing you are not observed by someone in authority, and providing you return to your pen by morning. This ‘freedom’ exists only because there are limits to what the authorities can oversee. But as their tools of observation improve (CCTV cameras, observation drones, GPS tracking, communications databases, microphones inside appliances), even a temporary escape becomes impossible.
Now this may not seem significant to most people, who find their pens perfectly acceptable and don’t have any desire to wander outside the fences. But the pens have been made as spacious as they are, simply because to reduce them in size would motivate more people to try and escape. But if the fences (enforced by the tools of observation) become so strong that no one can escape, the need to provide spacious pens diminishes. So the size pens will be continuosly reduced until the only speech permitted will be to echo what is said by the leader.
So as I strive to eliminate all individual freedom, I do indeed consider privacy to be my primary adversary. Any cult leader will tell you the same thing.
@Benito Mussolini … you are killing me, softly.
But “absolute freedom” is meaningless. Freedom is necessarily limited. As I said, it is a measure of the range of behavior we allow each other.
In every society that ever existed, and ever will exist, every individual is able do whatever s/he wishes, physical constraints aside. Right now, you can go outside and do whatever you want; the question is how other people are going to respond to what you do. Some behavior is allowed, some is not. The more that is allowed, the more free we are. In every society that will ever exist, freedom will be limited.
The role of “authorities” is to enforce the (legal) limits on behavior, while observing the limits themselves. There can’t possibly be a theoretical problem with the ability of authorities (and everyone else) to have knowledge of public behavior. It has been this way since the beginning of time.
“Privacy” can be defined as a realm in which the freedom we allow each other is almost absolute. Therefore, in this realm we allow each other to act without being observed. It is true that if we lose/surrender our right to privacy, we have lost our freedom. But, there is much more to freedom than just privacy. As I said, if we can only be “free” in places of privacy, that is a state of tyranny.
@barncat
I don’t think you’re seeing it from my point of view.
To use an example, I’m currently proposing to pass a law that all citizens must salute when they pass one of my posters. Previously I was worried this would set off some grumbling, dissent and maybe even lead to an insurrection. But with the new reports I get from my tech company partners, anyone who so much as grumbles about it is immediately flagged by the software algorithms and thrown in jail.
So the elimination of the private sphere has allowed me to greatly curtail freedom in the public sphere. So while privacy is not synonymous with freedom, the elimination of privacy is a necessary condition for the elimination of freedom – since dissent arises in the private sphere. Of course, current leaders are much more reasonable and allow their citizens greater latitude. But that is only because they don’t yet know how to fully wield their new power.
Hope this helps!
@Benito Mussolini … Your “moniker” was off-putting for me in the beginning, but if you are, as I think you to be, putting “us” on with your “name” then I think I get it. (I too play with words and stuff) Just so you know – I’m going to go back and re-read your posts. I may not “get” everything that you say, but I’m certainly understanding you a lot more now – and I am really going to try hard. I will probably not reply, but I might – just the same, whatever. No need to reply to me … you just keep on keepin’ on … but I wanted you to know. Thanks.
@Benito Mussolini
Yeah, I think about half of what I wrote in that last reply was talking past you, but I think the stuff about the necessary limitation of freedom was an apt rebuttal to your “Those in larger pens proclaim themselves to be free, but this is a relative and not an absolute freedom” – unless that was intended to apply only to freedom of speech, which seemed unlikely to me. My point is that living in society necessarily entails living in a “pen”, its dimensions being the measure of freedom of the society. So, hopefully that counts for something (if only in some future discussion).
I get this, but I think I granted the same point when I wrote “if we lose/surrender our right to privacy, we have lost our freedom”. I’ve been willing to take that as a given. My position is that privacy is necessary for freedom but not sufficient. It’s necessary because that “realm of almost absolute freedom” (a working definition) is something that we need to be sane. (Greenwald has been making this same point. I think the way he puts it is that we need it to be “human”.) That’s apart from the practical need you illustrate in your quote. So, getting to your quote, and your remarks about “CCTV cameras, observation drones, GPS tracking…” in your previous comment —
I wrote, “There can’t possibly be a theoretical problem with the ability of authorities (and everyone else) to have knowledge of public behavior.” I used the word “theoretical” because I acknowledge that some practical problems have arisen along with technological advancements. But I think the statement stands, and we just need to (re-)define what we mean by the terms “public” and “private”. I am not endorsing government eavesdropping on conversations held in public parks! I think the matter is dealt with by the legal concept, “reasonable expectation of privacy”. When that exists, we are in that “realm” of privacy I mentioned; when it doesn’t, we are in public. (There may be more to it, but that’s a start.) Where the line gets drawn will go a long way towards determining the degree of our freedom.
And I said, “The role of ‘authorities’ is to enforce the (legal) limits on behavior, while observing the limits themselves.” So, my premise is that authorities will obey the law. With that premise, all we have to do is carve out a wide legal realm of privacy for ourselves and make sure that no one like yourself ever gets in power. (And I say that with all due respect.)
Mr. Mussolini, sir, in the end I think the disagreement we’re having is based on your instinctive rejection of that premise. I suppose the idea that anyone could hold power without being corrupted by it – or gain power without being corrupt to begin with – seems hopelessly naive to you. But I’m not disputing it. I’m making a theoretical argument only, based on that premise. And if the premise is false, and if rule of law is a fantasy, then what is there to talk about? I suppose then it’s all a matter of guessing at the moves and motives of the power players as they do whatever they wish. Is that right? If so, I suppose I’d rather engage in an utterly useless theoretical discussion than involve myself in an utterly useless guessing game. As for you, you’re one of the players, so you don’t always have to guess.
For the record, Benito, I find your comments insightful, trenchant, and a welcome relief from the weight of the world. When will people accept their role as paving stones on the road to our greatness?
“crazy debates about Supreme court rulings as though the clear language of the original amendment has been nullified and is not worth consideration. The words don’t change because of what some dufus on the court says, and many of the court’s rulings need to be overturned.”
Our legislative institutions are polluted with morally bankrupt constitutional attorneys and their lackey corporate attorneys who dissect every letter of the Constitution and Bill of Rights (and every other law on the books) on a quest for any and every loophole they can exploit to the financial benefit and reward of Wall Street and the corporate elite who are carving up the planet in a twisted version of monopoly. (Then they reward the politicians with campaign funds for turning a blind eye to the shenanigans) … Then they challenge those laws with tongue twisters, french kisses, dental implants – sticking their tongues out like Miley – just to make case precedents and have their jive-talking shock and awe set in stone. (FYI: jive talk shock and awe = ref: bee gees/disco balls … not racism – please no hate mail)
Then when they’re done with that they actually write new legislation – chock full of loopholes, exemptions, ambiguous language and hidden agendas. If they’re really good boys and girls the prez will promist to try and slip a fastrack under the door, in the middle of the night, without letting anyone EXCEPT those feral corporate attorneys see the paperwork – not even the special congressional committees in charge of the legislation (TPP).
And don’t count on the Supreme Court to uphold any of our sacred documents — they’re former corporate attorney’s too — guess you they used to work for (and I suspect {cough cough}, still do)?
p.s. Obama is a constitutional attorney. Are you connecting the dots yet?
Didn’t do them much good in Iraq, by the look of how the war went.
Can anyone explain why is it so terrible to disclose the name of officials and NSA stuff who do terrible things? Is it because disclosing their identities would discourage them from doing more terrible things in the future and, oh horrors, would make prospective spooks more reluctant to join the spying arm of the Evil Empire?
Staff/stuff… same difference :)
I am not opposed to names being withheld if their disclosure has the potential of causing them physical harm. I would be interested in seeing a disclaimer attached to every disclosure that fails to name the NSA operatives who are “just following orders”; the reason why names are not being released in each instance of non-disclosure should be explicitly stated. If, in fact, the NSA is truly engaging in illegal activities – as claimed – then the disclosure of names seems appropriately news worthy.
Here you go: President Obama, DNI Clapper and other appropriate Agency Heads.
What more do you need to know?
Ignorance is bliss. Hail the Noble Lie (regardless of source).
April fools … :)
Dohhhh!
1) One American name that comes to mind is Valerie Plame: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valerie_Plame.
2) Then there’s the whole Turkey/Israeli/Iraq cover blowing: http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/10/18/turkey-blew-cover-of-israeli-spies-in-iran-report-says/
3) Then there’s this spy that was poisoned and killed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Litvinenko
4) And sadly, there’s Benezir Bhutto: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benazir_Bhutto
I am ABSOLUTELY not suggesting that journalists had ANYTHING to do with any of the names/situations I mentioned above. My point is – the spy game is an ugly, dirty, filthy business. People do die, or lose everything, and/or become pariahs when their names are named. Sadly – it’s typically the wrong people who get hurt in the spy game. And you never really know from what direction the shots are getting fired. Funny thing is … you never really hear about spies getting murdered (along with any collateral damage) … their identities are completely sanitized … their cover might be some low-level bureaucrat, a former green beret, or the guy at your dry cleaners.
I don’t think they’re discouraged in the least – they all CYA each other’s asses like 3-card Monty. I think spying will always be as alluring as James Bond and his martinis. Kids these days think it’s smoooooth, debonair, you can get all the chicks you want and you get to play with super cool gadgets tucked into your shoe. They have no idea what strings the puppets are pulling while they’re doing all the dirty work. Or how many other people end up in the crosshairs when they “innocently” pull the trigger – because someone else’s eyes is looking through the scope.
Of course, those kids will be the first ones thrown under the bus. That’s why I’m still astounded no other whistleblowers have come forward since ES. There was a time when I was more angry at them their evil masters … but I *almost* wish mercy for them. Shit rolls downhill… that’s where I’d personally like to see the tribunals start. There’s enough time to get to the paper pushers – I’m ready to see some stripes and key’s thrown away for the kids at the top. But that’s not up to me … that’s up the GG/ES and the agreements under which the documents are handed over. For now I can live with that … because if my intuition is correct the time for naming names will happen in due time.
On this article:
http://www.thedailysheeple.com/nsa-whistleblower-journalist-criticizes-agencys-staged-leaks_032014
Glenn Greenwald strikes again.
The daily sheeple…
Submitted by RT/RT.com…..
http://rt.com/usa/nsa-whistleblower-journalist-agency-leaks-465/
Again, there is absolutely nothing new here. Is it really a surprise that a Russian controlled news outlet would echo Glenn Greenwald’s views verbatim?
Your view of this ass-backwards. Don’t you find it remarkable that such a significant leak, presumably carried out by the Obama administration itself, is hardly noticed? The only one who noticed is apparently Glenn and the only outlet reporting it is RT. But imagine what would’ve happened if The Intercept had been the one leaking the same exact thing. Think about what that means.
“Don’t you find it remarkable that such a significant leak, presumably carried out by the Obama administration itself, is hardly noticed?”
Do you believe that this is the point that Lyra1 was attempting to make? Really? Did you actually read the article? Glenn is complaining about the fact that a MSM news outlet has published classified information with officially blessed impunity.
Do you believe that, by echoing those who echo Glenn Greenwald’s criticism’s of MSM outlets on Glenn’s own blog, one further facilitates the dissemination of his views? This is merely a form of vicarious narcissism.
A rehash of that which was originally said on this website hardly qualifies as “striking again.” Try this as an alternative: The Daily Sheeple echoes the views of Glenn Greenwald.
Greenwald at this point is like a broken record.
Chastise the bourgeois media, chastise the ruling elites, see how they spy on each other, it’s so outrageous that the German ruling class is being spied on!
Repetition repetition repetition. And useless to any significant systemic change.
You make a very valid point. The coverage of these NSA disclosures by main stream media outlets are market driven; As public interest wanes, so does the coverage. This is the inherit weakness of a timed-release strategy, regardless of motive. The American people are largely driven by the inculcated desire for immediate gratification (resolution). The longer that these disclosures drag on, the more risk there is that they will reap diminished returns (politically speaking). The shock-value baseline for each “new” revelation is derived from the release that immediately proceeded it. The diminished differential between disclosures also contributes to a waning interest. Glenn better get his book and movie to market pretty quick, or else …
Well when American MSM outlets BS 24/7/365 for at least 66 years,one would give credence to an opposing view,if one had a brain, eh novice shepherd.The old divide and conquer rears its ugly Ziohead.You idiots are toast,you’re just unaware of the collapse by your hubris.
“You idiots are toast, you’re just unaware of the collapse by your hubris.”
Are you talking to me?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1XklnsQr8E
Are you talking to me? I take issue that this website even offers an “opposing view.” What are they doing differently from the Times and the Post. They’ve acknowledged redacting documents and allowing scrutiny by the USG before publishing. They have given lame explanations (if they explain at all) why certain portions are redacted or omitted from their reporting. The website itself is owned by a billionnaire who intervened with his own money to overthrow a sovereign government. Finally, I identify as an anti-imperialist so I’m not sure how that equates to being a “ziohead.”
Nothing to see here folks.
Just a little sideshow.
“Just a little sideshow.” – Lyra1
“Sideshow”? This is a curious description of a sub-thread begun by you…
Is THE INTERCEPT one of the media outlets forced (mostly by legal considerations) to engage prior to publication of Top Secret documents?
Or has it chosen to be really free of US government interference?
Why doesn’t Glenn Greenwald respond to some of these questions – otherwise he appears no more informative than GCHQ?
And where is your own URL?
They’re clearing their docs with the government and government “stakeholders.” Those aren’t my words, that’s how Snowden described the leaks and how they would “work.” I take “stakeholders” to mean financial and neoliberal interests (like his boss maybe?).
Nothing they are doing is over and above what the NYT or the Post is doing. In other words, they are protecting the state.
Snowden is not anti-NSA or anti-capitalist democracy. By definition, that would mean neither are the people releasing the documents who are “respecting Snowden’s wishes” for which we are supposed to be so grateful.
Is THE INTERCEPT one of the media outlets forced (mostly by legal considerations) to engage prior to publication of Top Secret documents?
Or has it chosen to be really free of US government interference?
That question is addressed by Greenwald, Gellman and Poitras during the informative discussion session here:
Sources and Secrets: The Snowden Revelations
http://www.cuny.tv/show/sourcesandsecrets/PR2002972
It’s a bit puzzling why the propaganda hasn’t been ramped up sooner. The plotline of the NSA heroically supporting the US military and the suggestion that anyone criticizing it is unpatriotic is pretty obvious stuff – why wasn’t this rolled out 8 months ago? It’s possible to inculcate too much obedience in the tame press; when confronted with an unscripted plot line it just stares blankly waiting for orders. It was frankly embarrassing to watch James Clapper and Mike Rogers make fools of themselves in the media – who was writing that script? Thankfully this Ken Dilanian fellow has finally shaken off the stupor and started to put some real spin on things.
So if I may offer some advice to the Obama administration. Monitor the reaction to the LA Times article and if positive, announce that Americans deserve the same level of safety and surveillance as Iraqis. Roll out the petition you have prepared for repealing the Fourth Amendment. Finally you obviously understand that demonizing outsiders is the best way to unite Americans. But your focus is too fuzzy – Muslim terrorists, Russians, North Koreans – people are getting confused about who they are supposed to hate. So pick one, ramp up the rhetoric, maybe even declare war and watch as your popular support skyrockets. These are only a few modest first steps, but will really help towards implementing your longer term program. Good luck!
Your attempt to thinly veil your authoritarianism with fake sarcasm is amusing at best. Take a hike asshole.
I find your insinuation that I try to veil my authoritarianism to be disturbing. I have always been proudly authoritarian.
Are you sure you don’t have any authoritarian tendencies yourself?
I think his comment was a parody, sir. A caricature of a certain type of comment that is all too common here. You are a very serious person, so perhaps this possibility did not occur to you? If I’m wrong, then he would definitely seem to be someone you could cultivate.
I do sometimes tend to misjudge people. I thought I had found a kindred spirit. How disappointing to find out that it was only a parody of an authoritarian.
Ben, you are fast becoming my hero… may I worship at your altar?
A couple of parenthetical questions since I find you handy: firstly, why the really ugly post offices and other public buildings as well as the hideous public statuary you had built everywhere? Also, why did you have pine trees planted in teutonic rows across the Tuscan Appenines where there should be oaks and chestnuts? Neither stands well with the Tuscan aesthetic and some 70 years on, the blight is still widely in evidence. Thank you in advance for your kind reply.
You are comparing these buildings to neighbouring ones designed by Bramante and Michelangelo – that’s some tough competition. If they were in the US, they would be considered architectural landmarks.
Speaking of blight, the pines were fine until they were attacked by US pathogens (pdf file).
Ah….Mr Mussolini your tyrannical instincts and strategy are brilliant as usual.
It is true that the citizens of the United States are merely brainwashed by the scripts that these inept politicians are writing. Obviously, Mr Obama needs a new staff of writers for his agency heads as they are fully incapable of impromptu editing of teleprompter content.
However, It appears to me that Mr. Obama has been attending to the priority business of late. After all, he must absolutely ensure that all rights granted UP of Amendment II of the U.S. Constitution are thoroughly stripped before addressing the more subtle concerns regarding perceived violations of Amendments I and IV. As you know….Amendment II…is the most dangerous of all. The right to bear arms must be squelched without further ado.
SEE: http://www.alt-market.com/articles/2068-us-eu-statement-calls-for-enforcement-of-un-arms-treaty
That said, another contrived war against a perceived group of terrorists would go far to assist the National sentiment toward the propaganda imperative. The location of such an event is; as you eloquently noted, is not of real importance as the profit motive will still be realized.
In any case, Mr. Obama is sincerely trying to implement your theory in the United States but he does have a propensity toward negotiation with the United Nations which, is dangerous to the National Empire. He should heed your advice.
Are you sure about this? In that case I may have given him some poor advice. I counselled him to only make noises about taking away 2nd Amendment rights for now. People have an emotional attachment to their guns; try and take them away and they might actively resist. So I believed he should curtail all the other rights first, putting himself in a stronger position to attack the 2nd Amendment later. I called this my boiling frog theory of stripping away rights.
But it seems we both agree on Obama’s agenda, and are only quibbling about the best tactics.
Fortunately, Mr. Obama is heeding your advice. As you will notice he consented to the UN stipulations in relative secrecy.
I am grateful that you are here to advise us regarding the finer points of your theories.
There can be no doubt that National and International public outcry regarding recent revelations regarding violations of rights granted UP Amendments I and IV will impede his ultimate agenda. In light of that, it does seem prudent to shut the pesky peasants up first.
Your proclivity in these matters is beyond question.
To be a spy or to be a terrorist seems to be even more frustrating than to be a journalist or a whistleblower. Long Life for everyone :-)
Greenwald (White Hat) vs the NSA (Black hats)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dNxK_wslqo
Greenwald: 1, NSA: 0? Damn it, Who is keeping score!?
The security state is expanding, not contracting. That score is backwards.
I concur.
As I have not yet learned to count backwards, it is now
Greenwald: 2, NSA: 0
As I have not yet learned to count backwards, it is now
Greenwald: 2, NSA: 0
Now you are getting it.
To Glenn and the staff this is exactly the type of reporting that our nation and our world need right now, and thank you so much for providing it. Anytime hypocritical actions like these can be exposed makes the chance that we get fooled again less likely to happen. Thanks, and keep up he great work! Blanca.
he NSA engages in this fear-mongering not only publicly but also privately. As part of its efforts to persuade news organizations not to publish newsworthy stories from Snowden materials, its representatives constantly say the same thing: If you publish what we’re doing, it will endanger lives, including NSA personnel, by making people angry about what we’re doing in their countries and want to attack us.
But whenever it suits the agency to do so–meaning when it wants to propagandize on its own behalf–the NSA casually discloses even its most top secret activities in the very countries where such retaliation is most likely. Anonymous ex-officials boasted to the Washington Post last July in detail about the role the agency plays in helping kill people by drones. The Post dutifully headlined its story: “NSA Growth Fueled by Need to Target Terrorists.”
And now, Keith Alexander’s long-time deputy just fed one of the most pro-NSA reporters in the country, the Los Angeles Times‘ Ken Dilanian, some extraordinarily sensitive, top secret information about NSA activities in Iraq, which the Times published in an article that reads exactly like an NSA commercial:
FT. MEADE, Md. — In nearly nine years as head of the nation’s largest intelligence agency, Gen. Keith Alexander presided over a vast expansion of digital spying, acquiring information in a volume his predecessors would have found unimaginable.
In Iraq, for example, the National Security Agency went from intercepting only about half of enemy signals and taking hours to process them to being able to collect, sort and make available every Iraqi email, text message and phone-location signal in real time, said John “Chris” Inglis, who recently retired as the NSA’s top civilian.
The overhaul, which Alexander ordered shortly after taking leadership of the agency in August 2005, enabled U.S. ground commanders to find out when an insurgent leader had turned on his cellphone, where he was and whom he was calling.
“Absolutely invaluable,” retired Gen. David H. Petraeus, the former U.S. commander in Iraq, said in an interview as he described the NSA’s efforts, which led to the dismantling of networks devoted to burying roadside bombs.
John “Chris” Inglis just revealed to the world that the NSA was–is?–intercepting every single email, text message, and phone-location signal in real time for the entire country of Iraq. Obviously, the fact that the NSA has this capability, and used it, is Top Secret. What authority did Chris Inglis have to disclose this? Should a Department of Justice leak investigation be commenced? The Post, last July, described Alexander’s “collect-it-all” mission in Iraq which then morphed into his approach on U.S. soil (“For NSA chief, terrorist threat drives passion to ‘collect it all,’ observers say”), but did not confirm the full-scale collection capabilities the NSA had actually developed.
What makes this morning’s disclosure most remarkable is what happened with last week’s Washington Post report on the MYSTIC program, which, said the Post, provides “comprehensive metadata access and content” for entire countries where it is used. The agency “has built a surveillance system capable of recording ’100 percent’ of a foreign country’s telephone calls, enabling the agency to rewind and review conversations as long as a month after they take place,” reported the Post.
The program, noted the Post, has been in use in one country since 2011, and “planning documents two years later anticipated similar operations elsewhere.” Specifically, the fiscal year 2013 intelligence budget identified ”five more countries” in which the agency planned to implement the system.
The Post did not report the names of any of those five countries, nor did it name the one where MYSTIC is already operational. Instead, “at the request of U.S. officials, the Washington Post is withholding details that could be used to identify the country where the system is being employed or other countries where its use was envisioned.” The paper posted a short excerpt from the budget document’s discussion of MYSTIC but withheld and redacted the passages that revealed the names of these countries.
A primary argument NSA typically makes in such cases is that disclosure would endanger the lives of NSA personnel by inviting retaliation from people in those countries who might become angry when learning that their calls are being intercepted en masse. From the Post article: ”NSA spokeswoman Vanee Vines, in an e-mailed statement, said that ‘continuous and selective reporting of specific techniques and tools used for legitimate U.S. foreign intelligence activities is highly detrimental to the national security of the United States and of our allies, and places at risk those we are sworn to protect.’”
Leave aside how corrupted this rationale is: It would mean that no bad acts of the U.S. government should ever be reported, lest those disclosures make people angry and want to attack government agents. Indeed, that is the rationale that the Obama administration used to protect evidence of Bush-era torture from disclosure (to disclose torture photos, Obama said, “would be to further inflame anti-American opinion and to put our troops in greater danger”).
What is so extraordinary is that the NSA–at exactly the same time it is telling news organizations that disclosing its collect-it-all activities will endanger its personnel–runs to its favorite L.A. Times reporter and does exactly that, for no reason other than to make itself look good and to justify these activities. (“‘Absolutely invaluable,’ retired Gen. David H. Petraeus, the former U.S. commander in Iraq, said.”)
This demonstrates how brazenly the NSA manipulates and exploits the consultation process in which media outlets are forced (mostly by legal considerations) to engage prior to publication of Top Secret documents: They’ll claim with no evidence that a story they don’t want published will “endanger lives,” but then go and disclose something even more sensitive if they think doing so scores them a propaganda coup. It also highlights how cynical and frivolous are their claims that whistleblowers and journalists Endanger National Security™ by reporting incriminating information about their activities which they have hidden, given how casually and frequently they disclose Top Secret information for no reason other than to advance their own PR interests. It’s the dynamic whereby the same administration that has prosecuted more leakers than all prior administrations combined freely leaks classified information to make Obama look tough or to help produce a pre-election hagiography film.
Thus, writes the L.A. Times:
Thanks to Edward Snowden, a former NSA contractor, the world came to know many of the agency’s most carefully guarded secrets.
Actually, in this case, the NSA’s “most carefully guarded secrets” were spilled thanks to Chris Inglis and the paper’s own Ken Dilanian. But because the purpose was to serve the NSA’s interests and to propagandize the public, none of the people who pretend to object to leaks–when they shine light on the bad acts of the most powerful officials–will utter a peep of protest. That’s because, as always, secrecy designations and condemnations of leaks are about shielding those officials from scrutiny and embarrassment, not any legitimate considerations of national security or any of the other ostensible purposes.
Once again you take information out of context for the purpose of NSA bashing. Either that or you don’t understand English. Take the paragraph you highlighted and call as releasing classified info: “In Iraq, for example, the National Security Agency went from intercepting only about half of enemy signals and taking hours to process them to being able to collect, sort and make available every Iraqi email, text message and phone-location signal in real time, said John “Chris” Inglis, who recently retired as the NSA’s top civilian.” Inglis’ discussion in that paragraph obviously refers to ENEMY signals collected during time of war (2005). At no time does it say that they went to collecting all Iraqi email, texts and phone-location signals. Inglis’last sentence is a continuation of the thought in the first sentence which pertains to historical combat support at a time when both US soldiers and Iraqi civilians were being killed by terrorists and insurgents. To state that is not irresponsible releasing of sources and methods but merely putting out history about a former combat operation. You on the other hand are irresponsibly (with malice and forethought) releasing intelligence sources and methods. At the same time you are misrepresenting the reasons for those sources and methods (e.g. economic intelligence which is not something the US intelligence community does).. You also ignore some of the facts when releasing that information because the facts obviously don’t fit the negative story you are trying to sell. I really feel sorry for someone so blinded by hate that you dispense with critical thinking, ignore the facts and dissenting opinons, and immediately make every effort to belittle and demean anyone who thinks differently from you.
All the fuckwits on TWittr who ask us, including Glenn, “why not much to say about Putin and the Crimea,” well, what have they said recently (or ever) about this:
Yeah, I’m sure the Obama Administration will be taking a real hard line with the Saudis on this.
http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/3/bahrain-uprisinginterventionsaudiarabiaemirates.html
It’s always the case that double standards abound in such matters. On the 16th of August 2012 Nabeel Rajab, a prominent Bahraini human rights activist, was jailed for tweeting. There was barely a mention in the Western media. On the 17th the girls from Pussy Riot were jailed, with wall to wall coverage. In reference to Rajab the UK Foreign Office issued this:
Where as Pussy Riot elicited this from a Minister of State:
Nothing that Rajab did would be considered an offence in the Western world, in fact such behaviour is largely protected in law. Conversely, if members of the Occupy St Paul’s protest had taken it upon themselves to go into the cathedral and perform a smutty song on the alter, they would almost certainly have been arrested and charged and quite possibly jailed if the treatment of Trenton Oldfield is anything to go by. Nabeel Rajab is still in jail!
My source in Bahrain has characterized the political dynamic there as essentially an ethnic/class divide between the Sunni aristocratic class and the Shi’ite working class. The religious doctrinal differences are mostly just flown as flags of convenience as truth be known neither group is deeply invested in those doctrinal differences. This is ethnic more so than religious but it is mostly about the Bahraini Sunni ruling class fearing the Shi’ite working majority. A joining of Bahrain and SA would be useful in diluting the Shi’ite demographic within the combined state so would be attractive to the Bahraini ruling class.
WHY is Alexander still walking around in public?? His cell is directly across the hall from Cheeeeeney’s at The Hague.
Greenwald, who wrote about NSA abuses, wins UGA award for journalistic courage
Link: http://onlineathens.com/breaking-news/2014-03-31/greenwald-who-wrote-about-nsa-abuses-wins-uga-award-journalistic-courage?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
Absent Mona’s obvious attempt to provide the lens through which we view this interview, and by which we form our resultant opinions, the interview was exceptional. I really enjoyed the participation of Laura Poitras and Bart Gellman (who were both curiously absent in Mona’s singularly obsequious promo). Roger Cohen was brilliant in his role as well.
Well done Glenn Greenwald, Laura Poitras, and Bart Gellman! Your actions and opinions do warrant the consideration that they have garnered.
Little tipsy are we, Marcolf? You are replying to my quote from and link to a piece announcing Glenn’s award UAG award for courage in journalism. No video interview. No Roger Cohen, Laura Poitras or Bart Gellman.
So, “Mona’s obvious attempt to provide the lens through which we view this interview,” is, um non-existent. As is the interview itself.
Maybe sleep it off?
The link Mona posted doesn’t have anything to do with the interview.
Marcolf is down the hole with Alice. I posted an excerpt to a piece about Glenn winning an award for courage in journalism. Then replied to myself with a link to the whole article.
It wasn’t a video, and didn’t involve Cohen, Gellman or Poitras. But other than all that, she got it all right! :)
You are both right, my bad, I apologize for the misunderstanding.
Marcolf, if you didn’t see it, I posted a brief intro and link to that interview, only a few comments below.
“Video: Roger Cohen interviews Glenn Greenwald, Laura Poitras and Bart Gellman on the Snowden saga and stories.”
Yes, it came up on a refresh.
Take a good look at these comments. Read through some of the messages, notice the patterns, notice what these comments have degraded to. The stated purpose of this element of the website is for readers to comment and to be engaged. But what we have instead is a playground where mindless banter, childish bickering, spamming, and general unproductive nonsense by people who probably tell their 5 internet friends that they commented 15 times on the latest story, as if to impress them.
I highly encourage you to form your own opinion of what the comment sections have become, and whether or not it reflects either the stated mission of the website, or a genuine chance to have a democratic process so that we, who are the targets of this massive illegal surveilance net that is the most profoundly importanty thing to happen to anyone’s lives in the past several hundred years, can have a chance to figure out how to get our governments off our backs and get on with the whole life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness thing.
I don’t know about you, and this especially goes to you immature ones out there who are deliberately disrupting this website’s stated purpose, its service to humanity, so that you can impress your little friends, but I want to live in a free world. I want to know that some punk ass hacker kid or some psychopath in a suit in Virginia or something isn’t watching my every move and second guessing my every thought.
Think about this folks – none of you is in anyone’s heads but your own. You are constantly offended by people assuming they know what you think, so what makes you think the NSA can get it right? How do we know they haven’t imprisoned innocent people who were, say, researching a novel, or doing a fictional YouTube diary, and were thrown in jail or put on the terrorist watch list based on their misguessing thoughts that were actually aimed at helping?
So even as you sit and stew about people putting thoughts in your head, you go around and do the same thing, and play other childish games on these websites, destroying any chance the few mature of us have to fix this whole mess, which benefits you too I might add.
Think about what you want these comments to be. And this is directed to everyone else, the silent majority, the people who believe they are “playing it safe” by “not getting involved.” What they are doing is sitting on their asses while the real work is done, and in fact creating the very situation in which this kind of thing happens. Do you think the NSA could spy on the world if the majority of Americans, in understanding the consequences, failed to provide approval for such activities? That we don’t hold them accountable is why they get away with what they get away with. They did not ask for your permission to enslave you, they assume you give them permission by not saying so. That is the entire basis for this extremely limited version of life you are given – this limited selection of choices which you are given and told represents free will. Yes, if you consider choosing between the choices provided to you as freedom, then you have it, and it is all you will ever know.
This is a police state, a surveillance state. That you are blind to it is not a matter of concern to us, we have the police and surveillance state to concern ourselves with, and our efforts to once again secure our freedom; which was silently wrested from us in a mere 12 years.
Please, if you want to play and impress your friends, go elsewhere.
If you want to participate, do so with the idea of the mission of this website, to provide commentary and reader engagement.
And if you come here, do your part to ensure that this site can function to benefit all, including yourself.
Remember folks, the NSA are the enemy here, not each other. None of us are spying on you, none of us has the power to send a drone down your chimney, none of us can arrest you and put you away without charges forever. We are just here trying to do what we can to help with a matter that is of extreme import. If you don’t keep the boards clear for us, we cannot work on your behalf.
What I strongly suggest is that we open up a text editor after reading a story and jot down our thoughts after reading the story, if we feel we have something to say, to add, or perhaps to debate, or even a question to ask. DO so without regard for others’ comments. Let’s hear your original thoughts.
Then, afterwards, read other comments, and engage in debate and discussion with others. But again, open a text editor and think about what you are going to say instead of just quickly getting your thought out there before someone misses it. Take your time, compose your thoughts, and think about what you say or ask. And be respectful of course. Remember that we are all in this together, we are all on the same side, and more importantly, we are all equal. If someone has more knowledge, they simply have more knowledge. Respect it, and tap into it. If someone has a different opinion, seek to understand it, rather than simply disagreeing. Bridge the gap by increasing understanding. The chance of you both being somewhat right are higher than you would ever imagine, and you could both end up finding the correct answer if you understand each others’ positions.
And its okay to be good humored, but only as appropriate, and only when it is explicitly expressed. No playing tricks.
Anyway, that’s my opinion.
In case you did not know, sir, this behavior has been around since the advent of the internet…it is called trolling and you, my friend, just fell for their trap. Trolls simply seek to get a “rise” out of other commenters on a site. It’s too bad that the trollers in these NSA articles are most likely NSA psy ops employees themselves working to discredit thoughtful opinions like yours and portray the concerned citizens as a bunch of wacko birds.
Verbosity is the enemy of clarity.
As is hyperbole “General Hercules.”
Go start your own blog if your not happy here.
Thanks for 981 words of opinion.
What are the odds that everything said here is safely archived and backed up and will still be available to read 50,000 years from now?
Not to mention, lack of self-awareness.
Video: Roger Cohen interviews Glenn Greenwald, Laura Poitras and Bart Gellman on the Snowden saga and stories.
http://www.cuny.tv/show/sourcesandsecrets/PR2002972
And the US is still full of people who want to give more power to the corrupt filth that passes as government.
“And the US is still full of people who want to give more power to the corrupt filth that passes as government.”
It is literary true that Obama’s policies have designed and implemented to trash the DC Beltway. I can’t wait for the final chapter.
Trash will pile up in D.C. and walking on the National Mall is ILLEGAL: How the government shutdown will paralyze the country and send 800,000 workers home without pay
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2439871/How-government-shutdown-paralyze-US-send-800-000-workers-home-pay.html
“Man is not what he thinks he is, he is what he hides.”
? André Malraux
Anyone know of any “Counter Measures” especially along the lines of, for example, (and for lack of another descriptor) “remote dialing cellphones” etc..?
For example..I’ve been wondering if the decidedly low tech “solution” to what is described above..almost “automatic” cellphone locating and surveillance…would be to have TWO cellphones connected so that YOU “The Terrorist” (or anyone wishing any semblance of actual REAL Privacy) could call ONE phone which could be literally on some mountain top..and it..connected to another phone..would then “Dial Out” so that in essence this would be the old trick of “Taping Two Pay Phone Receivers Together” so that you are not in fact “Calling From” the phone that is ACTUALLY “Dialing” the receiver of the call…this was done “Hollywood style” in some movie but with a Radio..so that the ACTUAL “bad Guys” aka government agents searching for “Our Hero” could not in fact locate “The Hero” because he was not in fact “On” the phone “Doing The Calling”.
I am not a tech person..do not claim to be…just wondering if some kind of “Drone Phone” is available..or even a “Remote Dialer” so that you are literally…LITERALLY..a “Disembodied Voice” calling from a phone that has NO REAL Connection ..physically…or even “Technically” to the phone actually being “Used” to make a call..”Your” phone would be in essence merely a “Speaker” enabling your voice to be heard over the Remote or “Drone Phone”.
I’ll bet there’s a word or term for this..some sort of “Relay” system, so that any “Tracing” of the phone being used to “Send” the call on to its destination is then only going to find a it “Alone” in some basement or box along the side of the road.
“Beige Boxing” was one such tactic that was doable for awhile…you could “Patch In” to the “Beige Boxes” those “Pillars” along the side of the road with their (thanks Surveillance State) “Plug-Ins” for Surveillance programs like “CALEA” or Communications Assistance For Law enforcement” which basically provided literal “Hook-Ups” for surveillance on all phone service junctions in neighborhoods and……here’s the “Ta-Da” moment…”Developments”..so some enormous never finished “Development” would have these Beige Boxes with their CALEA hook-ups ready for “Additional Lines” and you could basically “Appear” to be using the phone at some location that was no more than a foundation or empty lot….at least that is my understanding…no I would NEVER do such a thing…NEVER…gosh no!
But look…Counter Measures is going to be BIG BUSINESS unless the Feds LITERALLY make “Seeking To Defeat Illegal And Irrefutably Unconstitutional Mass Surveillance ILLEGAL” which is obviously what they are going to do…FEAR is their “marketing platform” and it works splendidly..especially on the “Courageous” souls in Congress and the Senate et al an nauseam…
Sadly one of the greatest pieces of psychotic PR is the same “meme” that aging boomer hypocrites are using to describe their 3rd marriage offspring..”Oh…the kids are ALRIGHT”….ummm….not really…not for the most part…
The Snowdens and Mannings and Assanges are the 0.00000000000000000000000001% but the “99%” of the “Millennials” are the “VOLUNTEERS” literal volunteers for War..Torture..Kidnapping..Drone Murders..and MASS SURVEILLANCE…they are a “Turn Key” Fascist Cadre ready and waiting for “Orders To Follow” and Fanatical “Us Against Them” scenarios to use as their insane and pointless “Rationales” for committing LITERALLY..”Atrocity After Atrocity”.
Point? The MIT Grads of today..DO NOT WANT to get into the “Protecting Privacy Business” oh no! They cannot WAIT to “Build A Better Drone” or “Robot” or “mass Surveillance System”…MIT et al are practically already offering such courses as “Better Concentration Camp Management Systems” or “Replacing Outdated Human Workers With Cheap And Union Free AI” etc…etc..then of course NPR does the Puff Piece..”Aren’t Robots GREAT” as the program I heard couple weeks back went on an on about..
So hopefully “Counter Measures” will catch on ‘Big Enough’ that it will draw the 1% of actually “Conscious” “Millennials” and we can TAKE our privacy back.
Not that there’s any HOPE or anything…I mean its over..but..one can dream!
Not quite what is needed, but we are getting there. The problem with ECM is ECCM.
http://bit.ly/1htYGin
Your point about “the volunteers” of the surveillance state is key I think. I’m coming around to Matthew Stoller’s view that we’re eliding the real issue with concerns about “balancing” security and privacy, or technological progress. No, the issue were dealing with is political power. That is always the constant. There isn’t a “market based” solution. There is no “negative liberty”. That’s the quintessential libertarian headfake. Instead we’ve got to take our situation and transmutate it, POLITICALLY. I think Stoller presents a challenging frame in his article, recommend it highly.
http://www.ianwelsh.net/the-surveillance-state-is-about-power-by-matt-stoller/
What you are describing is how Tor works, except with cell phones.
MIT is one of the forces of righteousness on privacy and understanding the extent to which technologies derived by surveillance states can be weaponized against the public. The people who contribute to the development of these technologies lack the creativity and understanding necessary to build things that actually contribute to the betterment of mankind. They look for inspiration in the evilness orchestrated in Orwell’s 1984 and seek to prop themselves as elites in dystopian society.
We talk here as if hypothetically terrible things could happen that are actually happening. Meanwhile these sadists and sociopaths are laughing as they manipulate the general public and fear monger. They enjoy the torture they employ on humanity. They label the only real people in society who want to see an end to violence and the establishment of peaceful, democratic institutions that promote the betterment of humanity as threats. The amount of propaganda I see promoting clear violations of the Constitution are appalling. Don’t let the propaganda and manipulated online discussions manipulate you into believing your frustrations are held by a minority of people.
Thank you and keep up the good work on behalf of we the people Mr Greenwald.
You make a good point. I guess I should use the wording that the DOJ uses rather than the wording that many administrative officials use, because Mike Rogers himself can’t put anybody in prison, but the DOJ can.
Obviously, it was an old program in Iraq, etc. No longer operative. The guerillas heard about it. Not saying where from. Of course, you are blameless, o mighty one. They say you made it non-secret program, and it stopped working. Making a secret not a secret has a way of doing that. But you know best, Master. We cannot challenge your assumptions. How foolish of me.
And you know this how?
If that’s the case, why wasn’t it declassifed? Why was it “leaked” as classified?
The fact that NSA can collect all Iraqi electronic transmissions is not a big deal. The big deal is that NSA developed the ability to sort and deliver actionable transmissions in near real-time.
99% of all collected elint is drek. The key is to find the pearls and find them fast.
Glenn – please refresh my memory:
what news outlet recently agreed to the request of government, based on prepublication review, to withold the names of countries in which NSA spy programs were operating?
What kind of idiotic “gotcha” question is that supposed to be? Did you even read the article? Did you read the linked LA Times article? The NSA routinely leaks on itself when to do so will benefit THEM. Meanwhile, people like Edward Snowden are criminals.
What part of this concept are you having problems with, Bill? It’s not rocket science.
I was legitimately confused – I recalled recently reading an article where the media outlet right up front stated that they withheld country of location information.
I read the article – the whole basis behind Glenn’s argument is that NSA disclosed country of location. So,m you are the idiot here, friend, not me.
I thought I read that withholding claim in one of Glenn’s stories – before I criticized, I wanted to ask the question. Mona’s reply means that I could have read that in the WaPo, not here at the Intercept.
Stop being a cult member – Glenn has plenty iof defenders out there. He needs more skeptics and critics,.
The Washington Post
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/nsa-surveillance-program-reaches-into-the-past-to-retrieve-replay-phone-calls/2014/03/18/226d2646-ade9-11e3-a49e-76adc9210f19_story.html
thank you Mona – has the Intercept withheld country of location information upon pre-publication request of NSA?
Rule #1 in what I call “The Sheeple Effect”: Exploit the fears of the willfully uninformed. Rule #2: Control the narrative.
There are more rules. No doubt the NSA has a PowerPoint slide for each.
Fox news is notorious for scaring senior sheeple…”healthcare will kill us all”
I’ve been following The Intercept for the past few weeks and appreciate the blogs highlighting government hypocrisy, in addition to the revealing leaked documents about the psychopathic actions of the NSA and GCHQ.
Please don’t stop.
And do not hold back, because things need to change for millions of people who know (or are still to discover) that the wool has been pulled over their eyes. Everybody I talk to is tired of the lies, hypocrisy and criminality of our ruling classes. No matter how shocking or unbelievable any future revelations may prove to be, I am certain that you and the team are doing the right thing. Sentient human beings have a right to know what is done in their names, without their permission but paid for with their taxes.
I’d also like The Intercept to address some broader, perhaps philosophical questions…
– Are the good people of the world finally seeing the true nature of a police state?
– Is power so corrupted that it wants to know everything?
– Is there a modern equivalent of Cointelpro taking place?
– Do they have any powerful tools to filter the telephone transcripts / email texts that make the internet age a genuine Orwellian nightmare?
– Are they storing more than meta data, but the thoughts, desires, crimes and weaknesses of a whole generation?
– How can we encourage more whistleblowers?
– How can we guarantee their safety plus a meaningful life after the act of whistle blowing?
– Who decides what a black budget is spent on?
– How can the public get to grips with the nature of psy-ops and media complicity.
And how to mobilize the citizenry to rise up meaningfully and put an end to this deceitful government?
It seems to me there is now nothing stopping The Intercept from publishing the names of the other countries targeted by this program. Furthermore this “cry wolf” attitude of the US regime should be taken into consideration when considering requests to withhold information in the future.
“…….What is so extraordinary is that the NSA–at exactly the same time it is telling news organizations that disclosing its collect-it-all activities will endanger its personnel–runs to its favorite L.A. Times reporter and does exactly that, for no reason other than to make itself look good and to justify these activities…….”
To a certain degree you are correct. I’m not sure that the NSA was all that smart releasing this information, but the one constant promoted by people who support releasing the documents is the denial that people might die because of the released information. The more that people know about how we gather intelligence, the more likely (if they have a brain) they will avoid those measures. You even sent David Miranda to visit Poitras in person and avoided electronic communication like the plague. It’s clear that Just in Iraq alone, bulk collection probably saved a huge amount of lives:
“……..“Absolutely invaluable,” retired Gen. David H. Petraeus, the former U.S. commander in Iraq, said in an interview as he described the NSA’s efforts, which led to the dismantling of networks devoted to burying roadside bombs…….”
I don’t think this is all about making themselves look good. It’s a fair statement that collecting bulk metadata saved American and civilian lives in Iraq.
“I don’t think this is all about making themselves look good. It’s a fair statement that collecting bulk metadata saved American and civilian lives in Iraq.’
If that is a fair statement, maybe you or somebody else can point out clearly who was saved… as the bombs dropped and the drones flew over!!! All this chest thumping about the benefits from the intelligence, and the so-called dangers of the leaks has never been shown to be true with evidence of any kind. It is loud Propaganda from the administration and it’s supporters.
“…….If that is a fair statement, maybe you or somebody else can point out clearly who was saved…………”
I think I did – American and civilian lives.
“…….It is loud Propaganda from the administration and it’s supporters………”
True enough – but propaganda is a two way street. No denying that.
The bulk collection coincided with bloodiest period of the occupation. Iraq was ethnically transformed during this supposed ramp up of surveillance. Here’s a handy map of what happened to Baghdad from Apr 06 to Nov 07
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2007/12/16/GR2007121600060.html
One can draw their own conclusions as to the relation, if any, to this surveillance. But “saving lives” is not a fair statement, on its face.
“…….One can draw their own conclusions as to the relation, if any, to this surveillance. But “saving lives” is not a fair statement, on its face…..”
This was a sectarian conflict, pure and simple. Neighborhoods were ethnically cleansed and people were slaughtered much the same way as in Syria today. None the less, IEDs were commonly used against Americans and civilians (as they are in Afghanistan today with the bulk of civilian casualties attributed to the Taliban and their indiscriminate use of the lethal weapon). The identification of the people responsible for at least some of the carnage saved lives.
You make a good point, though. The Iraq war was much like the “civil” war in Syria with regional interests taking priority.
Thanks.
Craig, that invading Iraq could unleash a violent sectarian, civil war was anticipated by many. But Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, the neocons and many Democrats would not hear it.
So, we waged a war of aggression, bringing “shock and awe” to a country with simmering sectarian hatreds, which we unleashed.
The U.S. has blood on its hands, and is also responsible for the million or more displaced Iraqis.
“……..Craig, that invading Iraq could unleash a violent sectarian, civil war was anticipated by many. But Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, the neocons and many Democrats would not hear it……”
I agree with you 100% Mona – and that’s a first. The US unleashed a violent civil war in Iraq. No sane person can deny that. But (the famous”but”), the conditions for the civil war were put in place by the brutal dictator, Saddam Hussein who treated the majority Shia population as second class citizens for decades (and certainly much worse). Look it up in Shiapedia if you have any doubts.
In addition, regional players (like the Saudis and Iran) inflamed the civil war for geopolitical reasons. Of course, this is still happening today with (primarily) Sunni terrorists targeting pregnant moms and children in markets in many spots in the country (like they do in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Sudan and so on).
When the war settled down after the “surge”, the Shia rightfully ruled the country – as the majority party. The grateful Kurds are semi-autonomous in northern Iraq. Make no mistake about it. This was a brutal civil war on par with the Syrian conflict. But, the major mistake made by the Shia government was sending the US on its way. The US served as a political referee between Shia and Sunni interests. As minority citizens (rightfully) removed from power, the Sunni population depended on the US for protection.
Finally and you may not like it, Mona, but the Shia are rightfully ruling in Iraq. Iraqis vote. There is no threat of WMDs in the short term. The world is rid of a brutal dictator responsible for the use of WMDs (like Assad) and the invasion of two countries. Indeed, with the carnage in Syria principally instigated by people seeking a say in their government (Arab Spring), the same rallies for democratic rights were possible in Iraq – if not likely. Saddam would have made Syria look like a picnic.
Good riddance to the dicktator..
The age of consent under Saddam was 18. The new regime is about to lower the age of consent to 9. All the children of Iraq thank you America, you know, for liberating them!
Bill
“…….The age of consent under Saddam was 18. The new regime is about to lower the age of consent to 9. …..”
I agree, but that’s a cultural problem. It’s not easy to justify supporting Saddam, Assad or King fraud Abdullah because we want to save the Arabs from themselves. Millions of Egyptians protested in the streets all over Egypt against Morsi so we have to believe the Arabs will get this right in the long run. The fundamentalist won’t win.
But the US didn’t have democracy in mind when they removed Saddam so your point is well taken.
Thanks.
Right on, Mona, as usual!
Actually, as I noted in a previous post, the incipient phase of occupation had US officials legitimately concerned that Shiite and Sunni were cooperating.
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2013/05/2013567200437919.html
So not only was sectarian conflict anticipated, it was also viewed as a level necessity for America’s immediate interest in the region (see “Salvador Option”). And it’s long term as well, as the article illustrates. “Like Syria” indeed.
But your contention that surveillance “saved lives” during a sectarian conflict that the aggressor nation actively fomented is ludicrous.
Thanks Craig!
Yes, there was no talk of “democracy” at the time. I remember Bush saying then, “we don’t do nation building” (he was a master of understatement). That rationale, that talking point, that propaganda only got catapulted later, after it became clear to all but the deadest of the dead enders.
What Iraq was, was several things . . . in no particular order:
It was time to show the world, again, that, “Every ten years or so, the United States needs to pick up some small crappy little country and throw it against the wall, just to show the world we mean business,”.
“Defend Israel.”
Get revenge for 911.
Stimulate the economy, i.e. use up of some the millions of tonnes of ordinance and materiel that was sitting around in MIC warehouses. At one point, the bomb factories were running 24 hours a day, every day.
“Finish the job” Bush senior started.
More revenge, “he tried to kill my daddy.”
And last, but not least, Iraq was a client state in rebellion and just had to be smashed.
It was all great fun while it lasted!
I will never forget demonstrating outside the US embassy in downtown Ottawa, the one we asked them not to build there because we were worried about an attack that would inflict mass casualties in an urban area and being told, no, suck it up. Someone said, “Look, there are snipers!” I remember thinking, “Yeah right, snipers for a bunch of Canadians, kids mostly.” And then I looked up, and there they were! The “kill crazy” Marines, loaded for bear.
It’s a wonderful world.
“…….And last, but not least, Iraq was a client state in rebellion and just had to be smashed……”
Every one has their theories/conspiracies on why the US removed Saddam from power. And just as likely, there were probably a lot of reasons tossed around by the Bush Administration to justify removing Saddam from power. I have spent a considerable amount of time discussing and arguing over the reasons. You forgot at least two important reasons advanced by political pundits – oil and regime change – and as you mentioned, “last but not least”, there are probably more.
Thanks.
There is huge oversimplification of Saddam and the Baathists, particularly in a kind of unstated comparison with Western regional powers. When the UK ruled Iraq less than 50 Iraqis a year went beyond a high school education. The Baathists brought 80% literacy universal education and the largest percent of college grads in the greater Muslim middle east. The Shia and Sunni were largely integrated in Iraq with a large percent of intermarriage.
If there is no tradition of universal civil rights, which we failed to demand in the new political order, (instead disenfranchising the entire governmental infrastructure) and no prohibitions on the majority use of power, then voting is just a setup for the tyrrany of the majority, You want to say Iraq is better off in a civil war we exacerbated, with doctors and teachers fleeing the country, with half a million to a million killed mostly by us, with depleted uranium causing a sharp rise in severe birth defects, but you are in no position to say this, and the attitude that the violence is their own fault feels to me to verge on a condescending colonialist sneer at a nation that has been raped, not freed.
“…….The Baathists brought 80% literacy universal education and the largest percent of college grads in the greater Muslim middle east. The Shia and Sunni were largely integrated in Iraq with a large percent of intermarriage……”
Not much more needs to be said when you imply that Iraq was some kind of Middle East utopia. That’s ridiculous of course. Iraq was at best a police state under Saddam’s rule. You say that the Shia and Sunnis were integrated, but the Shia were treated as second class citizens in much the same way they have been treated throughout the Middle East. Bahrain is another good example of a majority Shia population “happily” living under the rule of the Sunni minority.
Shiapedia (Iraq):
“……..Persecution of Shia Muslims has generally rooted out of the formation of the Shi’a and Sunni denominations of Islam…….. Prior to the 2003 Iraq War, Iraqi Shi’ites were persecuted severely by the Ba’ath Party, particularly under the dictatorship of Saddam Hussein that lasted just over two decades.
Under Saddam, Ashura and Arba’een gatherings were banned and various clerics were subjected to brutal forms of torture and subsequently death. During his tenure, Saddam ensured that majority of the Shi’as in Iraq lived in constant fear and he became responsible for the deaths of thousands of Shi’ites. Some families would lose four, five or six members in a day and at times hundreds of arrested Shi’as would be killed and thrown into mass graves.[17] In 1980, Ayatullah Mohammad Baqir al-Sadr along with his sister Amina bint al-Huda were imprisoned, tortured, and executed. In March of 1991, a series of anti-government uprisings took place, but were repressed with brutal and indiscriminate force of Saddam’s security forces. In the city of Karbala, the shrines of Imam Husain ibn Ali (as) and Abbas ibn Ali were heavily damaged due to artillery shelling………Thousands of unarmed civilians were killed by indiscriminate fire from tanks, helicopters and later security forces began executing people on the streets, in homes and in hospitals. Doctors and nurses treating the wounded were arrested and killed, while patients were thrown out of hospital windows to their death.[19]…….The number of Shi’ite clerics in Najaf was reduced from eight to nine-thousand in 1972 to two-thousand in 1982 and to 800 in the early 90s. Roughly 105 relatives, staff, students and senior clerics associated with Ayatullah al-Khoei were arrested after the 1991 uprisings and were never seen again.[20] Due to the brutal massacre in 1991, no plot or second uprising came near to unseating Saddam despite attempts, until the 2003 Iraq War.[21]…..”
You may not have agreed with the invasion of Iraq by the US, but don’t fucking try to paint a picture of utopia under the brutal rule of Saddam Hussein, OK (Indeed, I haven’t even mentioned the Kurds, yet)? He is the one that refused to cooperate with UN inspectors. He could have alleviated the suffering of the Iraq people who were under severe sanctions from the west. Instead he chose to profit from the oil for food program. I suppose you could say the same for Assad – a great Baathist secular leader. Yea – look at Syria today.
Just so you can really understand exactly how deceptive your post was”
“…….The Anfal campaign began in 1986 and lasted until 1989, and was headed by Ali Hassan al-Majid (a cousin of then Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein from Saddam’s hometown of Tikrit). The Anfal campaign included the use of ground offensives, aerial bombing, systematic destruction of settlements, mass deportation, firing squads, and chemical warfare, which earned al-Majid the nickname of “Chemical Ali”…….Thousands of civilians were killed during the anti-insurgent campaigns stretching from the spring of 1987 through the fall of 1988. The attacks were part of a long-standing campaign that destroyed approximately 4,500 Kurdish and at least 31 Assyrian villages in areas of northern Iraq and displaced at least a million of the country’s estimated 3.5 million Kurdish population. Amnesty International collected the names of more than 17,000 people who had “disappeared” during 1988.[11] [12]The campaign has been characterized as genocidal in nature. It is also characterized as gendercidal, because “battle-age” men were the primary targets, according to Human Rights Watch/Middle East.[13] According to the Iraqi prosecutors, as many as 182,000 people were killed.[3]…..”
“…….. According to the HRW during the Anfal campaign, the Iraqi government:
Massacred 50,000 to 100,000 non-combatant civilians including women and children;[16]
Destroyed about 4,000 villages (out of 4,655) in Iraqi Kurdistan. Between April 1987 and August 1988, 250 towns and villages were exposed to chemical weapons;[17]
Destroyed 1,754 schools, 270 hospitals, 2,450 mosques, 27 churches;[18]
Wiped out around 90% of Kurdish villages in targeted areas.[19]
Made 2,000 Assyrians, along with Kurds and others, victims of gas campaigns [20]…….”
You’re still using the ‘Man “sent”</strong the boy language. That's telling.
You're still assuming that you know the reason(s) why Glenn, the Guardian, Poitras and Miranda chose to travel in person to Poitras' location and back.
No, it's not clear that bulk collection saved lives. It used to be "clear" that bulk collection stopped 54 terrorists plots/attacks. Turned out that bulk collection stopped zero attacks.
Maybe you’re referring to a different David Petraeus than this one: The Legend of David Patraeus by Michael Hastings
“Meanwhile, Iraq – the scene, supposedly, of Petraeus’s greatest triumph – remains mired in brutal civil strife. Broadwell writes twice that Petraeus went to Iraq in 2007 to “pull the country back from the brink of civil war.” But there was no “brink”; Iraq had been in a full-scale civil war for at least two years by that point, and Petraeus’s real success was in fully backing the Shiite side over the Sunni side, hardly a recipe for mending Iraq’s murderous ethnic divisions in the long run.”–Hastings
I wouldn’t want to be banking on honesty coming from either Alexander or Petraeus. about anything. Certainly not about “saving lives.”
“Nevertheless, for all her exertions on Petraeus’s behalf, Broadwell ends up inadvertently confirming much of what his harshest critics have said about him – namely, that’s he not just an ambitious aw-shucks fellow, but can really be a sneaky and ruthless bastard, too. For instance, he throws his predecessor in Afghanistan, Gen. McChrystal, under the bus in the same way he does Eikenberry.
(snip)
“If you think such sniping is beneath America’s most illustrious soldier, I’d refer you to my own reporting. As Gen. John Vines, a contemporary of Petraeus’s throughout his career, confided to colleagues: “Petraeus leaves the dead dog at your door step…. Every time.” Or, as another military official put it: “He has the ability to make anyone who comes before him look like a total fuck up.” (Those perspectives aren’t in Broadwell’s book but in mine, The Operators, where you’ll find a more skeptical take on the general.)”–Hastings
Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/national-affairs/the-legend-of-david-petraeus-20120131#ixzz2xakenwEB
Follow us: @rollingstone on Twitter | RollingStone on Facebook
“……..No, it’s not clear that bulk collection saved lives……”
Fine. Don’t buy it. It makes no difference to me either way. But the Intercept published an article by a former drone operator which indicates that terrorist networks have been identified and taken out using this technology – which most certainly saved American and civilian lives:
“…….The National Security Agency is using complex analysis of electronic surveillance, rather than human intelligence, as the primary method to locate targets for lethal drone strikes…….According to a former drone operator for the military’s Joint Special Operations Command (JSOC) who also worked with the NSA, the agency often identifies targets based on controversial metadata analysis and cell-phone tracking technologies………The former JSOC drone operator is adamant that the technology has been responsible for taking out terrorists and networks of people facilitating improvised explosive device attacks against U.S. forces in Afghanistan…………”
The UN published a report which concluded that 75% of the civilian deaths in Afghanistan are inflicted by the Taliban – and the IED is one of the more potent weapons used by the terrorists to target coalition troops and civilians.
Sure, around negative half a million according to some epidemiological studies.
“……..Sure, around negative half a million according to some epidemiological studies…..”
The US isn’t even in the country and the murder continues so that should give you a clue about the origin of many if not most of the deaths in Iraq. The US is responsible for unleashing a brutal “civil war”, but sectarian hatred and violence exacerbated by the brutal, sadistic rule of Saddam Hussein (over decades) – together with regional “interests” at play (Saudis, Iran) – has made this conflict especially brutal and enduring.
All of which was predicable and predicted.
But the elite didn’t want to hear, and even the meekest suggestion that the war was a bad idea was met with taunts of being a “Saddam apologist.”
The elite knew, they just didn’t care. Destabilization is a feature of imperialism, not a bug.
I’m sorry but how can you be so obtuse? The US created the conditions on the ground. Where would you like to start? The total destruction of infrastructure? The Baathist purge? The training of Shiite Death Squads? The murderous sanctions before the war? The explicit support of Sadaam, before he tugged the leash?
The way to save American lives was to not send them to conduct an illegal war of aggression-occupation of Iraq. Which ironically enough, would have also saved a lot of Iraqi civilian lives.
Your knowledge base of what happened in Iraq, or any other war for that matter, is dictated by what the media provides and that information is directly restricted by the Pentagon.
Maybe, you should consider the fact that you may not have been provided with all the necessary data for a true and impartial analysis.
Consider this information: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDutkYQF9d8#t=180 (The War You Don’t See (2010) John Pilger
The best way to save lives in Iraq would have been to never have invaded the country in the first place.
Precisely.
“runs to it favorite L.A. Times” missing an s
Great article.
Greenwald just won another award. He’s going to be famous someday!
http://onlineathens.com/breaking-news/2014-03-31/greenwald-who-wrote-about-nsa-abuses-wins-uga-award-journalistic-courage?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
Thank you for posting this Bill Owen.
Applause!
Congratulations Mr. Greenwald!
For journalistic courage.
*nods head in solemn agreement*
too bad Glenn can’t enter the USA for fear of arrest and torture by “the authorities” like the censured jerk AG we have to live with
Bill – I seem unable to comment so maybe you can help.
Please refresh my memory: what media outlet just agreed to a government request, based on pre-publication review, to withhold the names of countries within with NSA spy operations were being conducted?
Hi
Not sure. All of them are redacting information to a greater or lesser degree and that includes Greenwald. No one wants agents killed, arrested or identified and the holy grail, the “means of collection” i.e. the exact technical details are not going to be release.
None of the above is holy writ, just my impressions and/or recollections.
I think it is really bad policy and practice to allow NSA prepublication review to essentially black out country of location information.
That is WAY TOO BROAD to protect sources and methods.
Thanks, Bill.
Bravo, Glenn.
John Inglis should go and live in Russia or China if he hates America that much. No doubt he has an enormous ego and is probably a narcissist and a psychopath. He and all of his accomplices should be tried for treason and then shot.
When was the last time he visited his mother I’d like to know, and how well did he do in school?
Nice try at poisoning the comments page “larry”. What will you do for an encore, make explicit physical threats against Dilanian?
Glenn Greenwald,
As a reader who is still somewhat new to your style of journalism, I am stunned at how consistently and recklessly you fill your articles to the brim with insinuation, hyperbole, ad hominem attacks, and misrepresentations. Even worse, you and your “adversarial journalism” colleagues (looking at you Murtaza Hussein) toss around the word “propaganda“ in a matter that leads me to conclude you don’t even know what the word means.
Glenn’s implication is clear. Based on this title, the Post was clearly just being “dutiful” to the NSA, aiding in the “propagandizing” of the NSA’s story. Who is this shill author that we should target with our stones and angrily wag our morally superior fingers at? It is Dana Priest. You may recall her as the George Polk Award winner for National Reporting for her November 2005 article on secret CIA detention facilities in foreign countries. What a friggin hack, right!? How reckless was Glenn’s comment on the WP, and by extension her? Glenn immediately caught heat from Matt Apuzzo (NYT) via Twitter and Glenn predictably attempted to separate himself from his own claim, (https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/450721471896514560), sheepishly saying:
How strange that myself and others immediately concluded otherwise. In his next Tweet, Matt Apuzzo responds: “The WaPo story you call out as being NSA propaganda is by @danapriest.” Glenn backtracks further: “1.) I didn’t call it out; 2.) I thought it was a poor article; 3.) I think @danapriest is a great journalist.” So for those keeping score at home, while the Dana Priest piece was a piece of propaganda, she’s still a great journalist! Good ol’ Glenn Greenwald: Shoot first, defend self on Twitter later.
Later in the article:
More Glenn Greenwald ad-hominem attacks; these are typically referred to as “poisoning the well” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well), when “adverse information about a target is pre-emptively presented to an audience, with the intention of discrediting or ridiculing everything that the target person is about to say.” It is a tactic I hear all the time used on crappy conservative A.M. radio stations. Now maybe if Glenn’s accusation was remotely true, such a logical fallacy could be overlooked. But per usual, Glenn didn’t reach this conclusion based on any kind of in-depth analysis of the author’s work. He just recklessly insinuated it like usual. {If some of you want to do Glenn’s work for him, here’s the author’s archive, have at it! http://www.latimes.com/search/dispatcher.front?page=6&Query=Ken%20Dilanian&target=adv_article} But let’s just focus on the contents of Dilanian’s LA Times article, which easily calls into doubt Glenn’s ranting. How about this:
Dilanian also provided additional clarification when Alexander downplayed the impact of and selectively quoted the Presidential Task Force’s findings:
To those skeptics out there, ask yourself – would an “NSA commercial” have the opinion of a representative from a civil liberties organization? Would it point out Task Force findings that are critical of the NSA? I’d guess “no.” Lastly, this is a piece on the end of Alexander’s tenure at the NSA. What would you expect it to be about – plaudits on Snowden!?
For fun, let’s turn the spotlight around at Glenn Greenwald with an exercise aimed at his most staunch supporters. I challenge you to find a single article written by Glenn that concedes value or benefit derived from NSA’s programs. Like Bigfoot, I have never encountered one personally, but maybe it is lurking in some dark corner of the Internet. Yet Glenn has the gall to call other organizations “propagandist”!? Let’s actually put some meaning behinds the word. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda):
Glenn, the irony meter damn near hit the “Ask Zelda” end of the threshold. On a continuum, your work is much closer to propaganda that it is to impartiality. Now for the big lede, the segment described in the title of Glenn’s article!
Followed later by:
To synopsize, Glenn accuses this Inglis guy and by extension Ken Dilanian of revealing classified TS information (i.e. intercepting everything out of Iraq). However, he simultaneously qualifies his own statement by acknowledging that the WP reported on this matter last July. The logical follow-up question is “how does Glenn reconcile these claims?” Glenn says the distinction is that “[The Post] did not confirm the full-scale collection capabilities the NSA had actually developed.” But this doesn’t hold up to even a tiny level of scrutiny; Glenn’s own link to WP article damn near mirrors exactly what this Inglis guy said:
In plain speak: The program titled “Real Time Regional Gateway” was used to collect the entire “haystack of data” in Iraq according to the guy who tracked the plan’s implementation (operative word “implementation”). The WP story then referred to the program as an unprecedented data collection plan that played a role in breaking up Iraqi insurgent networks “by late 2008.” There is no confusion about the Post’s lack of confirmation. This program happened!
So that means that Glenn’s title and content are misleading at best and inaccurate at worst. If any “propagandizing” occurred, it was in July 2013, as covered by the Washington Post. Hell, the “Real Time Regional Gateway” is even mentioned on NSA’s Wikipedia page and cites the Post! So no, Inglis & Dilanian did not “blow its own top secret program.” My first thought was that Glenn was just being lazy, but it’s not that simple. He had reported on this exact story last year when it broke and sure as hell did not seem confused back then! (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jul/15/crux-nsa-collect-it-all) This means one of two things: (1) Glenn either has some memory problems, or (2) he commits hypocrisies like everyone else out there, including the ones he derides. A couple more points on this trash heap of an article:
Glenn, if this peeves you so bad, why don’t YOU and THE INTERCEPT publish the names of the countries! For chrissakes, you have the exact documents, do you not!?
Plus:
Yep, because that is ALWAYS the case and such things happen EVERY TIME!! (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faulty_generalization) Glenn Greenwald could never concede even the POSSIBILITY that shielding leaks would be done for a national security purpose.
So, your argument basically boils down to “Glenn doesn’t also concede that the NSA does important and necessary work, that means he is a propagandist!”
…nah.
It’s not his job to make sure his criticisms of the NSA’s activities are tempered with “but all in all they also do good work okay”. Only a simpleton who has fully internalised a passive authoritarian mindset would think that this is what journalism should do. If Glenn ever made some sort of pat statement on how “at the end of the day” the NSA is still doing important work, I’d say he was wasting his time, and mine.
On Glenn’s style, yes, it is vitriolic and emotive, and openly adversarial. That’s fine, because he always backs up his accusations. If you ask Glenn why he thinks Ken Dilanian is a staunchly pro-NSA reporter, trust me, he’ll be happy to provide half a dozen links. Copious referencing is what he’s known for.
(Disclaimer: that doesn’t mean that if you ask RIGHT NOW in the comments he’s gonna answer RIGHT NOW. There’s a lot of comments, and people asking questions of Glenn should chill instead of getting so self-righteous and worked up that they seem to think there’s a conspiracy afoot if their questions aren’t immediately addressed.)
In criticism of Glenn, I do think he gets angry a little too easily, and he’s certainly said things and implied things that he’s had to walk back from. That’s fine, because it doesn’t change the facts he’s reporting on, or the way he reports them through extensive referencing.
No, the argument doesn’t boil down to that. You only characterized a very short portion of an admittedly long post. And I didn’t conclude he was a “propagandist,” I just flipped his own logic against him. For the record, I don’t resort to such politically charged use of characterizations such as “propagandist.”
First, I don’t think that is fine because it is the epitome of outrage media. To me, it is similar to the Mark Levins’, Sean Hannitys and other bombthrowers on AM radio and cable news networks. The only difference is that GG is much smarter than them, but those tactics pollute his articles with logical fallacies and character assassination. As for proof of Dilanian’s “propaganda,” why do I have to ask for it!? That’s not a legitimate excuse. Damning accusations should be backed with evidence by default. Anything else is lazy.
I have seen some of his detailed work so I know he has it in him, but this article should not be excused as just an outlier but viewed as business as usual. Last week he personally attacked Tommy Vietor (who I’d never heard of until the article) on a flimsy basis and he constantly picks Twitter fights online. He comes across not as adversarial, but an ass. There is an article out there by the Daily Kos (I can’t believe I’m citing this source) that analyzes 30 articles from his Salon days and the amount of insinuation and character attacks it documents are stunning. He deserves to be held accountable and that is what I tried to do with my post. I didn’t just fixate on one area – I quoted, detailed and supported all my arguments.
Also, re: Dilanian’s article – it’s laughably biased. If you actually read it, you notice that the criticism of Alexander is confined to a couple of lines in a two-page article, with the REST OF THE PIECE saturated with gushing praise and ominous warnings about how stupid the public was not to “get” the context which made the NSA’s work necessary, and how now WHO KNOWS CHINA AND RUSSIA MAY HAVE OUR INFO. Ridiculous stuff.
The fact that he mentioned the presidential task force doesn’t really count as criticism, as it first and foremost exculpated the NSA from both illegality and malfeasance, merely saying that there may have been unintentional lapses in compliance. It was as tepid as criticism of the NSA programmes can get without becoming parody.
So, perhaps not soviet style propaganda, but extremely biased and unprofessional reporting.
You should know that I read it because I directly quoted it in my comment above. And I find it odd that you find it so biased when, unlike Glenn’s piece, it isn’t filled to the brim with Dilanian’s own personal analysis and rhetoric. It is a piece about the end of Alexander’s tenure after all, so I don’t know what you believe should have been included, but its absence doesn’t make it biased. I also noticed that you didn’t quote any of the actual report, you paraphrased them in a hyperbolic manner, just like Glenn often does. I gave the article another read through and I don’t see a single part where the author gushes praise. It is Petraeus and other officials that compliment him, and it is up to us – the reader – to determine if we think that is adequate. If I had to give Dilanian’s article the same treatment I gave Glenn’s here’s what I’d point out:
* I would have included a paragraph talking about how despite Alexander’s disbelief, the revelations had resulted in significant findings by two panels (he mentions one later), a federal judge calling it “likely unconstitutional” and outrage from civil libertarians including Rand Paul in Congress. Instead Dilanian referred to polling data the actions of one Libertarian group, outrage by businesses and claims of Alexander being a liar. This shouldn’t be shrugged off, but I don’t think it captures the explosive reaction to the revelations.
* This isn’t a criticism but something I pointed out earlier that is GOOD journalism. When Alexander referred to the White House Task Force, he said “lo and behold, NSA is doing everything we asked them to do, and if they screw up, they self-report.” This is an absolutely misleading conclusion by Alexander. But instead of letting it go, Dilanian called him out saying: “But it also noted “serious and persistent instances of noncompliance” with privacy and other rules. Even if unintentional, those violations ‘raise serious concerns’ about the NSA’s “capacity to manage its authorities in an effective and lawful manner,” the report said.” Dilanian took Alexander to task! That report had over 40 recommendations after all.
* “What the reporters have, what the Russians have, what the Chinese have” all remain questions, [Alexander] said. “We don’t know for sure on a lot of those things.” I think Dilanian should have qualified this by saying the NSA has not released any evidence of interception by China or Russia and that Snowden claims he handed off all the data before he went to Russia.
As for all the facts, well they are mainly quote-based and that is what journalists do! This may come across to you as biased but if this were a profile on Snowden, would you expect it to have some inordinate amount of quotes and perspective from the NSA!? I don’t think so because these reports aren’t intended to be monolithic explanations of everything at once. If you want to accuse DIlanian of bias or propaganda, you simply MUST look at his body of work!
*
Hey, sorry, I didn’t mean to imply that you hadn’t read it, I was just using a figure of speech to say that reading through it gives you the same impression that Glenn was going for.
As for the content, yes it’s full of quotes, but a vital part of bias in journalism is being discriminating in what quotes you choose to insert. For example, if a journalist were to write an article with 18 quotes, 17 of which are in favour of the NSA and 1 of which is critical, then you could reasonably conclude that he or she is biased in favour of the NSA, even though the journalist did not weigh in personally on the issue.
The article is a good example of this. The first few paragraphs deal exclusively with how effective Alexander has been in his role, using soundbite quotes like “Absolutely invaluable” and “sped the place up” while raising no qualifications or concerns.
The next few paragraphs focus on the Snowden leaks and the privacy violations they resulted in, but discusses them PURELY from the point of view of how they made Alexander FEEL, as opposed to their actual significance to law, society, and politics. This is a profile on Alexander, but that in NO WAY means that the focus should be on how he feels as opposed to the actual consequences of his actions. At this point, the article is explicitly pandering, assuming good faith on the part of Alexander and the NSA generally (which is a dubious assumption to begin with) and clearly positions itself in agreement with Alexander.
For example, the following sentences:
“But they felt sure the American public would be comforted when they learned of the agency’s internal controls and the layers of oversight by Congress, the White House and a federal court.”
“A libertarian group put an advertisement in the Washington transit system calling Alexander, a 62-year-old career military officer, a liar.”
If you can’t see the bias in these sentences, then I’m not sure how to help you. The first sentence uncritically posits that the structures governing the NSA’s activities can be characterised as “internal controls and layers of oversight”, when in fact we now see that it is genuinely more apt to characterise what went on as a system of confused rubber-stamping and intimidation. The second sentence begs the reader to feel outraged that a man – a military officer! – should be called a liar.
The next few paragraphs describe the task force report and the changes that were made to NSA protocols, and it contains the ONLY criticism of the piece, which in any case assumes good faith on the part of Alexander and the NSA. This is NOT “taking him to task”. It’s literally the most tepid criticism that he could muster. It’s not even blaming a “bad apple”, it’s just blaming “unintentional noncompliance”. Given the context of the debate, and the range of criticisms being leveled at the NSA, this in and of itself constitutes bias.
And the next “criticism”, by Michael German, actually opens by asserting and assuming that Alexander is “the good guy”. Wow! You could perhaps argue that this quote is meant to describe Alexander’s self-conception, and call it into question, but frankly that’s not how it reads in the context of the article.
The next few paragraphs describe again how the Snowden leaks caused the NSA problems, and made Alexander’s life more difficult, rather than discussing how the NSA’s actions have damaged democracy, the rule of law, and diplomacy internationally. Do you not see why this is biased? If you did a profile on Putin’s invasion of the Ukraine and kept on discussing how the western backlash was making Putin feel, and how confused he was that the West didn’t understand why it was necessary, would you call that unbiased journalism?
There’s some pointless character fluffing, too – “”Keith’s an engineer,” said a former senior intelligence official who worked for Alexander and who commented on condition of anonymity. “With Keith, it was always, ‘If we can do it, we ought to do it.'”
And then there’s a couple of paragraphs, much of which are actually from Dilanian’s mouth, and they LITERALLY sound like an NSA press statement:
“The NSA relies on those sorts of innovations to keep ahead in the cat-and-mouse game of signals intelligence. And eventually, in five or 10 years, the United States will recover from the Snowden affair, Alexander said. But for now, once-fruitful tactics have become all but useless.
Sophisticated adversaries already knew a lot about U.S. capabilities, of course. But often, “the reason that we’re successful is because people are lazy. They don’t do what they’re supposed to do,” said retired Lt. Gen. Richard Zahner, a former senior NSA official.
Now, Russian ground commanders and Al Qaeda cell leaders are on notice that the NSA is nearly everywhere.”
I mean, does this really even merit explanation? The way he drifts from quoting to paraphrasing to personal analysis clearly shows that he is in agreement with Alexander on these points. And this is literally the most pro-NSA passage I have read in an article not professing to be an opinion piece.
You’ve already accepted the points I would have made on the final bit of scaremongering about the Chinese, to conclude.
So there you have it. If you wanted a long, step-by-step breakdown on why the Dilanian article was pro-NSA pablum, you’ve got it. I don’t really know how I can take you closer to water on this one, Nate.
Could we have a ‘share this’, after each comment?
Some comments, always brief, are just too good,
not to be shared.
1.) click on the date-time of the specific comment you want to link to.
2.) copy and past the new URL into an email.
This is the link to your post above – https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/03/31/nsa-worlds-blows-top-secret-program/#comment-18755
The comment – all comments – have a unique id that is at the end of the URL.
Or just right-click the timestamp. At least in Firefox that pops up a context menu where “Copy Link Location” can be found. Paste that wherever.
As far as I know no one in this thread has yet to link to Marcy Wheeler’s post the LA Times “Extremely Friendly Exit Interview of Bubble Alexander.
Any time anybody, be they journalists or not, try to use the above-exposed excuse, I am going to simply copy/paste https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/03/31/nsa-worlds-blows-top-secret-program/ Anybody: “but, but, but….” Shut up now. :)
glenn – what media outlet recently agreed to pre-publication government requests to withhold the locations of the cow tries within which NSA technology was deployed?
Yeah, Glenn! What’s the answer?
Hi Bill. Did you mean “…within the ‘countries’ deployed.”
I hope not, because the idea of NSA technology being deployed via cow pies is a winner.
“making people angry about what we’re doing in their countries”.
Absolutely Priceless!
Remind me again, who are the terrorists?!!!
Making people angry in their own countries about the fact that “we” are “making people angry in their own countries is… Hmmm, priceless squared?
The LA Times story, while possibly largely true, was, I expect, planted to make people imagine that the ‘one country’ that MYSTIC had full ‘content’ surveillance over was Iraq. Rather, I’d expect it was probably the U.S. I’d guess the additional 5 countries added to MYSTIC are Canada, Japan, Germany, France and the UK, since all of the SIGINT programmes are more about conducting industrial espionage and repressing dissent than about stopping terrorism and organized crime.
Now that the terrorists in Iraq know that every one of their phone calls and emails is being collected they will have to change their tactics. What a problem that will be. It could take years if not decades to recover from the damage this leak has caused.
Now that the terrorists in Iraq know that every one of their phone calls and emails are being intercepted they will have to change their tactics. What a problem that will be. It will take years to recover from the damage this leak has done.
Everyone, everywhere should assume the the NSA is monitoring and recording everything said, regardless if the NSA says otherwise. So I can’t imagine people in Iraq previously thinking their communications were safe. The only thing all these leaks do is prove the NSA lies.
Heard you twice the first time : ) Wait a minute, you mean there are terrorists in Iraq? How the hell did that happen? Speaking of damage ….were you one of the people cheering the Iraq war when it started? If so, would you be willing to apologize to the people of Iraq for destroying their country, to the Americans who were sold a war based on lies and media suckage, and to all those people who were killed injured and displaced by that stupid war?
I think that since that leak was leaked by the NSA, larry was being facetious. He was repeating the mantra that NSA, spokespeople and apologists reflexively toss into the atmosphere every time that any of their secrets are leaked by anyone but those chosen by them to leak.
I hope so : ) Perhaps a snark alert is called for in a post like that?
or you could lighten up and get a clue.
Dear FP, Anybody who reads these articles and the comments knows that there people who are perfectly serious spouting things even more stupid than what Larry said without a hint of sarcasm, but thanks for you concern.
I think larry is channeling Stephen Colbert.
Well, he needs to work on that a bit. Colbert is pretty good at this shit… Larry, not so much.
That leak had to have been “authorized” internally, and if there are no prosecutions, we can be sure that’s the case. So they don’t appear to think it’s damaging.
And it probably isn’t. Any organized militant group in Iraq would obviously be aware of this already. As usual, the only people who don’t know are the general public.
Sorry, that was not for you. I misread your comment.
Terrorists have known this for years. It was only brainwashed, stupid, ill informed, know nothing jingos with no education, or common sense who did not. People like you.
Oh these guys are now all playing in traffic if you ask me. They have created this creature of their own making that is so horrifically magnificent that they are just going to burst if they don’t get to share. Also by now they know it is likely to all come out so they are draining their own damn noodles as best they can in their own darn colanders. That is the way the clown bus rolls. Of course their hypocrisy is stunning as usual. Anyways make note of it.
As an American I have no problem with Snowden leaks leading to attacks, or death’s as long as it is just limited to NSA personnel, there accomplices, and any other enemy combatant of the American people.
Since I’ve posted elsewhere here and that means I’m sharing a comment space with you, I’d feel remiss if I didn’t say I find your views utterly repulsive. Not you. Just the views. Then again, opinions on this particular article might just be too insular and nasty for me to tolerate, so rather than bitch about it I will now excuse myself from the kitchen…
“I find your views utterly repulsive.”
That’s good of you. To take “him” that seriously, I mean. I suspect we are hosting a little swarm of ratfuckers today, not honest nutjobs, but one never really knows. The internet has no shortage of nutjobs………. or missish concern trolls either.
If you’ve been here awhile, it may well look that way to you. But one of the go-to moves when defending any group is “No, you don’t understand, that behavior comes from a few outlier types, they don’t represent Us.” It’s not disingenuous, people tend to assume their intuitive values are obviously representative of group norms. I don’t care who said it, I felt it was important enough to comment on. Apologies, though, I did say I was going… How can you miss me if I don’t get lost and all that… ;)
Adventures of The Most Pathetic Person on Twitter
Glenn Greenwald: This never ceases to be such an inspiring story – and underscores that *actual radicalism is about actions & risks http://fdlbooksalon.com/2014/03/29/fdl-book-salon-welcomes-betty-medsger/
The Rancid Honeytrap: oh god shut up. or get some new fucking new material you tiresome dullard.
The Rancid Honeytrap: by your account, someone who shoots up an abortion clinic is radical instead of a reactionary.
The Rancid Honeytrap: do you ever stop rationalizing your highly profitable, self-serving, establishment-appeasing incrementalism?
The Rancid Honeytrap: can’t you just for 1 day, shut up and count the money, instead of punching to your left at people with 0 influence, petty man?
(The flagrant logical error in the second reply is the product of a fine intellect overwhelmed by seething jealousy.)
Stay tuned for Further Adventures of The Most Pathetic Person on Twitter.
https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/450063259639758848
No apologies for the repost. I submitted basically the same comment under the previous Greenwald column, at 11:30 AM, Sunday morning, and when I turned off the computer around 11 that night, it had still not been posted. I assumed it was rejected because it contained a shortened URL (twitter’s t.co/), and forgot about it. But when Tarzie showed up here, I decided to repost. Later on I discovered that the first comment had been posted sometime on Monday (possibly after I submitted the repost).
The above comment took over 41 hours to be posted.
WHY isn’t this NSA clown in Jail yet ???
Framing bottom line: “[as always,] secrecy designations and condemnations of leaks are about shielding those officials from scrutiny and embarrassment, not any legitimate considerations of national security or any of the other ostensible purposes.” This is their way to ask for more money. They run out some press for their doings, which is supposed to pass as report of accountability and public service on paper, towards the public interest. Then they bill the government for their office supplies. Think like a bureaucrat for a second and you’ll see how it fits.
It looks like I will forever be the one opponent to this publications position on Snowden. Do you folks remember the thousands of people who were killed in 911? If you had even an inkling of what other nations are doing, you would become immediate cheer leaders for the NSA.
I lived in Japan for a few years and when I came back US phone companies would not reactivate my old phone. They would not give me service unless I purchased a new phone that had GPS. That old original Motorola clam-shell worked just fine on their network, but it could not pinpoint my location.
There has to be a good journalist story in there – who and what forced the US phone companies to demand GPS. Also, the huge push to put GPS in automobiles is afoot. The government desperately wants that to be law as well.
…To protect us. Each and every one of us.
Whoops – ^ was to Mike Sulzer below. Looks like [Reply] button does not work if using NoScript…
Whoops – ^ was to Mike Sulzer below. Looks like [Reply] button does not work if using NoScript/Ghostery.
We call your condition — paranoia.
And for “safety reasons” you cannot disable the GPS tracking. “Emergency services” can always find you even with location services turned off. I wonder who is included in “emergency services”?
I found a way to completely remove the whole GPS system from my car. It’s not very easy to do but maybe I will make a YouTube video of the whole process for educational purposes . I leave it at home with my phone whenever I go some place that way the American Stasi always thinks I’m at home.
How do you obviate the licence plate readers, and the surveillance cams with face recognition?
@Bill
Do you mean chipped license plates that some states are starting to use? If so for that these electronic chips are easily located, and can be drilled out with a simple hand drill.
As far as surveillance cams go I have experimented with some small non nuclear electromagnetic pulse generators but unfortunately you have to be very close (within camera range) to permanently disable these type of devises.
For now just trying to live of the grid as much as possible can work. For example move to a rural area were the communities don’t have the money, need, or reason to install these type of devises. Never drive on the interstate or into a city with a population over 5000. You can get everything you need to live in small rural communities just as easy as you can in larger cities. I found that you can get any were you want in America by traveling not so traveled county, and back roads. It might take a little longer to travel this way but the scenery is great and the chances of there being a surveillance cam, or license plate reader is minimal to none.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_number_plate_recognition
Those tollbooth cards with RFIDs can be tracked as well as the credit cards in your wallet if they have RFID albeit only at distances of 10 meters or so.
Conclusion: some people, especially obsequious reporters (I refuse to call the journalists) really, really get off on being propagandized. It’s truly obscene.
What’s not to like? They don’t have to work to get information, they don’t have to have any analytical skills or even much basic knowledge, and a big “scoop” is dropped in their laps! Doesn’t cost them anything but their integrity. But that is not a cultural aspiration anyway.
Not for nothing this “overhaul” preceded the most horrific period of the attack on Iraq, in which the “Salvador Option” was likely used as a means to further quell the Sunni insurgency.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvador_Option
A targeted purge occurring during a dramatic ramp up of occupied surveillance isn’t evidence of direct culpability, but given what Chelsea Manning revealed, it strains credulity to assume there wasn’t detailed awareness of death squad activity, and at best tacit forbearance.
Also let us not forget the sectarian violence was an anticipated feature of the occupation, not a bug.
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2013/05/2013567200437919.html
I thought the notion of not naming the specific country(ies) that the NSA has full-take over had a nice Panopticon chilling touch – making sure all countries (ostensibly the bad guys in those countries) think they are being watched.
Even redaction can be used as a mind weapon.
And not naming the countries makes sure that no country has “standing” to sue or even complain, not knowing whether they are among the chosen.
From the LA Times article:
I think the claim from the general is that this tamed the insurgency, and turned things around in 2005. Amazing, in a country where the power and water hardly worked, insurgents communicated by phone, email, and text message. In fact, I bet we got all that modern communication going just so the NSA could track ’em better. What a clever ploy!
The Security State pulls this all the time, regardless of which party owns the White House. In December of 2005 — a week or so after the NYT broke the NSA warrantless wiretapping story– an odd piece appeared in the LAT: FBI Monitors for Radiation at Some Mosques.
The gist of the story was that that FBI has gadgets that they employed to the exterior of mosques to measure for radiation inside — bomb0building — and they do this without a warrant! The program is secret, of course, and so all sources declined to give their name.
I never heard boo about this”leak” being investigated, a leak that scared the public with RADIATION, making getting warrants seem a bit sissy. (But now the Muslims knew we were monitoring radiation at their mosques!!! All cuz some traitor couldn’t keep their lips sealed.)
http://articles.latimes.com/2005/dec/24/nation/na-monitor24
More security theatre. Obviously any radioactive material would be shielded and not detectable. They know this.
Yup.
The Federal Government has a real monopoly in the trade of “secrets” that supposedly protect the public from boogeyman pseudo-terrorists don’t they? They continually hide behind “Security Classifications” of documents that point to their own involvement in those events or matters specifically under public scrutiny because the facts are in conflict with the “official” story.
i.e.: http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/03/31/mh370-2/ (MH370: 9/11-style false flag gone awry?)
Media outlets must conform to reporting only what the Federal Government tells them is “unclassified.” Therefore; the only “Freedom of Information” is the freedom to report exactly what they (the Federal Government) allows. It is a vicious circle that is a hallmark of totalitarian control.
“The Federal Government has a real monopoly in the trade of “secrets” that supposedly protect the public from boogeyman pseudo-terrorists don’t they?”
“Boogeyman pseudo-terrorists” is a double negative. It is akin to saying mythical fake terrorists. This having been said, the term “bogeyman” is the perfect image to capture the essence of a modern-day, state sponsored terrorist as the term denotes “a non-specific (or ever-changing) embodiment of terror” that is used by an authority figure to keep a target audience in a constant state of fear and suggestibility.
Did you know that, when an individual is in a state of fear, he becomes more suggestible. And, if that same individual is the member of a group of like -minded individuals, then he/she tends to give more credence to the collective rationalizations of the group then to their his/her own perceptions? Investments strategists use this understanding of group psychology to predict investment trends and/or sell products:
“As the mental unity of an investment crowd grows adherents to its investments theme become homogenous in their thinking. When this happens the crowd develops an important characteristic that mature crowds share with herds of animals, its members become very suggestible, and are apt to take action or modify their beliefs when presented with a strong image of something they desire and fear. Suggestibility opposes logical persuasion, but, as we have seen, every crowd member so strongly believes in the rationalizations offered by the crowd that no logical persuasion is necessary. Consequentially, images presented to the crowd by its leaders or the media will be acted upon immediately by members of the crowd without further questioning. This is the essence of her behavior. The members of a herd find safety in numbers but only so long as the herd stays together in a group and acts together as well.” (The Art of Contrarian Trading – Carl Futia)
or if you prefer:
“As the mental unity of the group mind grows adherents to its belief system its individual members become homogenous in their thinking. When this happens the crowd develops an important characteristic that mature crowds share with herds of animals, its members become very suggestible, and are apt to take action or modify their beliefs when presented with a strong image of something they desire and fear. Suggestibility opposes logical persuasion, but, as we have seen, every crowd member so strongly believes in the rationalizations offered by the crowd that no logical persuasion is necessary. Consequentially, images presented to the crowd by its leaders or the media will be acted upon immediately by members of the crowd without further questioning. This is the essence of her behavior. The members of a herd find safety in numbers but only so long as the herd stays together in a group and acts together as well.”
We need a common enemy to unite us. – Condoleezza Rice
“The PNAC program, in a nutshell: America’s military must rule out even the possibility of a serious global or regional challenger anywhere in the world. The regime of Saddam Hussein must be toppled immediately, by U.S. force if necessary. And the entire Middle East must be reordered according to an American plan. PNAC’s most important study notes that selling this plan to the American people will likely take a long time, “absent some catastrophic catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor.” (PNAC, Rebuilding America’s Defenses (1997), p.51)”
“The common enemy of humanity is man. In searching for a new enemy to unite us, we came up with the idea that pollution, the threat of global warming, water shortages, famine and the like would fit the bill. All these dangers are caused by human intervention, and it is only through changed attitudes and behavior that they can be overcome. The real enemy then, is humanity itself.” – Club of Rome
My point in the original comment was this:
“Media outlets must conform to reporting only what the Federal Government tells them is “unclassified.” Therefore; the only “Freedom of Information” is the freedom to report exactly what they (the Federal Government) allows. It is a vicious circle that is a hallmark of totalitarian control.”
Despite your veiled discourse you grabbed the more subtle lead in my original comment (posted by article) which was toward the propensity of governments to use the concept of “terrorism” as a “ploy” to drive the minds of the masses.
Expanding upon that topic requires further investigation and historical analysis of the facts surrounding a given example like 9-11.
See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-iedPkmRRY (The Empire of the Cities – Inner London & the Vatican) Note: Time = 5:00:21
Despite the facts in this case of point; humanity apparently fails to identify the modern day organization or group of agencies acting as the generating source of both terror and control.
See: http://www.un.org/en/aboutun/history/1941-1950.shtml
Born out of a false-flag operation, with a false mission statement, designed to profit the International Bankers by waging repeated “wars” to control the masses through terror.
It is a long-repeating historical cycle isn’t it?
“Did you know that, when an individual is in a state of fear, he becomes more suggestible. And, if that same individual is the member of a group of like -minded individuals, then he/she tends to give more credence to the collective rationalizations of the group then to their his/her own perceptions?”
This needs repeating, over, and over again. Thanks for the examples, as well.
“Thanks for the examples, as well.”
Thanks. I especially like the last example wherein Club-of-Rome member Al Gore has uses fear to pit mankind against itself by advancing the self-serving (carbon trading) thesis of anthropogenic climate change. There is nothing to fear, but ones own humanity! Does this postmodern sensibility remind you of anyone you know?
And you, my friend, are just the guy to do that as we know from following all your previous posts…. the ones with phrases repeated dozens of times throughout our little corner of the interwebs : ) I’m sure we will be seeing a lot more of that phrase from you if recent history is an indicator.
“And you, my friend, are just the guy to do that as we know from following all your previous posts…. the ones with phrases repeated dozens of times throughout our little corner of the interwebs : ) I’m sure we will be seeing a lot more of that phrase from you if recent history is an indicator.”
If the web fits….
Elmer Fudd? Dammit, I didn’t know there was going to be a pop quiz. What is this, some new prototypical experiment in online interaction, where one person makes a comment, the other makes a meaningful response, all leading to the much despised, slippery-slope and inevitable, wide-ranging ,tit-for-tat idea exchange paradigm? Or is that “continuum?”
Sorry for the “John Kelly/El B/Mona/Lyra1/et .al” moment.
Regarding the “Club of Rome,” I was not aware of that club, thanks for the link. Concerning Al Gore, I don’t hold him to be an exemplar of climate change, per se, but I do trust the science thus far, to the extent that I understand it. On that basis, then, I don’t see climate change, aka, global warming as being a fear-mongering tactic, in and of itself, but rather a prudent warning that things are changing and if the science is correct, we need to do something about it, if indeed we can. The “wait and see” treatment methodology just doesn’t seem prudent, no matter the cause.
With regards to humans being their own worst enemy, I think that is self-evident. The carbon-trading issue seems benign when taken into the context of resolving this, most likely because I don’t know enough about its mechanism to say either way.
And finally, concerning the last question…I still come up with Elmer Fudd. Or Bugs Bunny. Some loony character…that’s for sure.
@Silly… WTF? I haven’t even read this thread and you’re ALREADY assuming I’m going to disagree with anything that is said in it???
Just so I can get a fucking word in edgewise – I don’t have any beef with anything that was said in this thread – except for the part about Al Gore. I happen to read as much as I can about global warning – and I absolutely think humanity will be it’s own undoing if it continues. It’s already reeking havoc on earth … to assume that carbon and fossil fuel aren’t part of the equation is ignorant and suicidal.
Don’t drag me into your Elmer Fudd bullshit with presumptions about me (and I dare say everyone else you called out by name) … cuz if you hadn’t noticed – Bugs ALWAYS kicks Fudds ass in the dumbfuck department – and all he ever needs is a God Damn carrot to do it!
Well, lookey here… this just appeared in my FB feed…
“Climate Science’s Dire Warning: Humans Are Baking the Planet” – Amy Goodman’s latest on Democracy Now!
http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2014/4/3/climate_science_s_dire_warning_humans
Now you can go munch on the carrot you dangled in front of me … while smoking the exhaust of the bus you failed to throw me under. Have fun with that.
If I had a dime every time a current head of NSA or CIA accidentally spilled the beans, I’d be sitting on my own private island in the Caribbean.
I worked the arena when Gen Hayden was in charge. He’d go talk at big fund raisers and try to impress the audience with choice, juicy bits of data. The only trouble was, that data was classified. The next day at work, the security team would be scrambling to try to figure out if/how/when the agency would respond to the data leak and whether or not the data could be suddenly declassified. (And, altho he’s no longer in a top position, he still likes to blow his horn in public: http://www.usatoday.com/story/theoval/2013/10/25/obama-michael-hayden-twitter-national-security-agency/3186261/)
We had the same kind of problem with John Deutch (CIA head). Yeah, he’s the guy who took his (secure) government laptop home and used it to access his AOL account. Oh, and he let his family use his laptop, too. These guys are not the brightest bulbs on the tree and they hold peacock positions in that the positions are mostly window dressing. They don’t really understand what/how intelligence is gathered; they just know it’s some cool sh*t.
@penguin assange
Glenn will be debating Hayden and “Needles” Dershowitz on May 2 in Toronto. State Surveillance — Be it resolved state surveillance is a legitimate defence of our freedoms…
Glenn’s partner will be Alexis Ohanian the co-founder of reddit. I found this a bizarre choice. I have no idea what his debating skills are, or his knowledge on these issues, but in all my readings on this matter, I have not seen him.
Tickets have been sold out for weeks.
This is going to be EPIC.
No word on whether Rob Ford will be attending or if he does if he will be in a ‘stupor’.
– See more at: http://www.munkdebates.com/debates/state-surveillance#sthash.SGRddaHz.dpuf
“What authority did Chris Inglis have to disclose this? Should a Department of Justice leak investigation be commenced? ”
That is a great idea!
“If you publish what we’re doing, it will endanger lives, including NSA personnel, by making people angry about what we’re doing in their countries and want to attack us.”
Oh really….Give me some specific examples please. What? You can’t???
Here we go again……The “Terrorists” again asserting their bizarre and convoluted “moral reasoning” upon the masses to protect us from secretive false-flag operations, assassinations, and wars that they are obviously fully capable of generating without external assistance.
“That’s because, as always, secrecy designations and condemnations of leaks are about shielding those officials from scrutiny and embarrassment, not any legitimate considerations of national security or any of the other ostensible purposes.”
That is the fact that you have clearly proved with your journalism Mr. Greenwald. Impeccable work.
Thank you.
The ACLU once obtained via FOIA 23 cables that had been previously leaked by Wikileaks. Remarkably, even though the documents were in the public domain in full, the US government redacted a lot of the text. The ACLU built a simple application that lets you see the text that was redacted, here:
https://www.aclu.org/wikileaks-diplomatic-cables-foia-documents
This provides insight on when the US government classifies information. It’s quite clear that they’ve been trained to classify anything that might be remotely embarrassing.
Exactly.
They can obscure facts on any subject matter or situation simply by imposing the absolute edit of a security classification to the “stuff” that proves involvement, makes them look suspicious or incompetent, or leads to further questioning from the public.
If, in fact, the US Constitution is representative of the Republic of the People of the United States of America, the Supreme Law of that land states clearly in Amendment I that:
“Congress shall MAKE NO LAW respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free speech thereof: or ABRIDGING THE FREEDOM OF SPEECH, OR OF THE PRESS; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”
The argument is: In fact the US Government is “Abridging” the press by censoring the reportable content in the interest of “national security.”
According to the Constitution, CONGRESS SHALL MAKE NO SUCH LAW doing that.
It does not seem unreasonable to postulate that the Executive Branch, regardless of mitigating fact, purpose, or intent; is also subject to adhering to the same provisions of the Constitution
Both the Patriot Act and the NDAA were simply tools used by the Executive Branch to protect the Republic of the People from a pseudo-enemy “Terrorists” —- boogeymen hiding in closets and under beds, in their houses, on the streets of all cities, and yes, in the heart of every person that does not believe the “official” government explanation or rendition of any given occurrence.
In light of evidence regarding 9-11, maybe both the Patriot Act and the NDAA were not necessary. Regardless, as Acts, they do not supersede the Supreme Law of the Land.
At this time there are a couple of defensive strategies that might work.
1. A massive “We the People of the United States” vs The Government of the United States for violations of Free Speech and Freedom of the Press granted UP Amendment I of the Constitution of the United States ; and mass violation of the rights of the people to be secure in persons, houses, papers, and effects UP Amendment IV of the Constitution of the United States.
There is plenty of evidence for both cases.
2. Amendment X : Powers retained by the states and the people
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
In short, Individual States can Nullify their unconstitutional laws and/or impositions.
In my humble opinion, if both of these options are simultaneously implemented soon, We the People have one final chance to save the Republic.
Thanks GG
Thanks, Glenn. I know some people will consider this government hypocrisy just another example of playing political hardball — giving scoops to news outlets that do favors for the administration, withholding info from those that don’t — but in this instance the administration is trying to prosecute Edward Snowden for treason and send him to jail forever while the administration is leaking the same kind of information that it excoriates Snowden and several journalists for revealing. Outrageous! Thanks for posting it. Good for linking to.
While many debased fools such as Peter King have used that word, treason, in connection with Snowden, the actual charge that the DOJ is currently officially applying is espionage: “The criminal complaint against Edward Snowden, who is accused of espionage after leaking documents about a secret National Security Agency surveillance program. U.S. charges Edward Snowden with espionage in leaks about NSA surveillance programs”
Espionage, not treason, which is quite hyperbolic enough, I know, but it’s important to not propagate the false treason charge.
So many deceptions. Most us citizens are afraid to talk about these issues as they will surely be spied on or targeted one way or another. Snowden is a superhero. I am making some t-shirts to sell right away. Thanks to the intercept an dem now!
Who’s afraid? I’m not, and neither is anyone I know. The NSA and the US government is losing the PR war, that’s why they trot out nonsense like this in “newspapers” like the Los Angeles Times.
“I am making some t-shirts to sell right away.”
T-Shirts? Dude think big! This type of gushing adoration calls for capes, costumes, and masks. All Hallows Eve (remembrance of Martyrs) is only seven months away.
All this selective prosecution of leaks would make legalistic sense if there were a secret sub-classification system superimposed on the public one. For example, there would be the well-known TOP SECRET classification that we are familiar with, and within that there would be a secret sub-classification to separate the “good” secrets from the “bad” (i.e. embarrassing) secrets. The good secrets can be legally shared with the press, while sharing the bad ones is subject to criminal sanction. The default classification is “bad,” but a few very highly-placed officials may affix the GOOD classification. Leaking theses secrets (the GOOD ones) is legal, and therefore DOJ is not legally obligated to investigate.
Sounds crazy I know, but I can’t imagine any other method that would allow the administration to even pretend to be conforming to rule of law.
Deepest heartfelt thanks to you Mr. Greenwald, over and over again. The pattern of deceit and government hypocrisy is so obvious that every time you point it out I am surprised that I am surprised once again.
“every time you point it out I am surprised that I am surprised once again.”
I’m surprised you’re surprised you’re surprised!
But where *would* we be if Glenn weren’t endlessly fascinated by, and attuned to, how the rich and powerful say one thing and do another? I really don’t think this is a lesson one can be surprised by too often, do you?
And adjacent as this surprisingly surprising lesson now is to lengthy, prolix lectures on how important alignment with rich powerful people is to the delivery of these surprising surprises, the social and political potency of revealing these surprising surprises is impossible to overestimate! It’s downright radical!
Never stop surprisingly surprising us Glenn! We need it now more than ever.
Don’t your arms ever get tired carrying all that NSA water?
Tarzie is an anonymous troll. Ignore him/it.
“Tarzie is an anonymous troll.”
Says a guy calling himself Bill Hicks.
My real name is Lenny Bruce. Happy now?
*BLOCKED*
“Says a guy calling himself Bill Hicks.
My real name is Lenny Bruce. Happy now?”
Now that was funny. Like a hot dagger in the back.
Listen Tarzi, the next time Silber shows up, how bout you two do a few one liners. I like one liners. Especially when they use the word fuck. You guys are experts in fuck. Can’t wait.
Mildly curious. Since you seem to find Glenn’s brand of activism annoying, what exactly do you support / propose / endorse, etc.?
“Since you seem to find Glenn’s brand of activism annoying, what exactly do you support / propose / endorse, etc.”
I am not going to answer that question because The Intercept moderators cherry pick comments. This tight control on opinions is very typical of the culture that surrounds Glenn with his encouragement. This culture is one of the many things I dislike about what you call his ‘activism’, which, by the way, is not what I call it.
Hypocrisy is infinite in the world of humans. It’s a narrow focus, a field of expertise. Some may and do choose to get out far beyond it. Some of them die in the process, don’t ya know.
“And adjacent as this surprisingly surprising lesson now is to lengthy, prolix lectures on how important alignment with rich powerful people is to the delivery of these surprising surprises, the social and political potency of revealing these surprising surprises is impossible to overestimate! It’s downright radical!”
Ouch!!! Now this is a scathingly brilliant critique! I hate you sir for reminding me that, when it comes to style, I have feet of clay!
It is sad that those good people belonging to groups such as the NSA don’t seem to realize or see their future, and that they are on the slippery slope leading to: trans-humanism, inhumanity, totalitarianism, fascism, control by Artificial intelligence (AI), cults of secrecy, elitism by lovers of control and domination and that they are attracting like flies all the psychopaths on the planet.
For all those good humane people involved with this group of controllers (NSA etc) and don’t want to be part of this inhuman future you better wake up soon. It might seem like you are on the winning side right now, but – you haven’t seen the real brilliance of humanity yet. You might believe technology can better the human mind, heart and spirit but you will be proven wrong and you know it in deep down in your heart and soul.
Jump ship boys and girls because you are on a sinking ship. Who is going to offer you a life raft when it sinks? Will it be a AI computer, a drone or a fellow human being who has compassion? Are you just a piece of disposable human meat to them? Decide now because time is running out, believe it or not.
The choice is yours and remember you create your own future by your thoughts, actions and your associates.
Each must choose his future.
Victory to our humanity brothers and sisters.
Ode To Joy – take to heart
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pbMUEHvoAo
“Each must choose his future.
Victory to our humanity brothers and sisters.”
Yeah, we’ll see which side of the line in the sand your on when they start kicking in doors to confiscate weapons. Cause THAT is exactly what they are planning. Eventually. Unequivocally.
The Framers knew it. Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Got weapons?
Yes, I have three Canon printers and an Epson printer. Those are my weapons. I can print and post some radical (to the Sheeple and their Galtian overlords) stuff.
Because the power of the press belongs to we who own them.
Speaking of that issue Chronicle, have you seen this?
http://www.alt-market.com/articles/2068-us-eu-statement-calls-for-enforcement-of-un-arms-treaty
I wonder how many people are actually cognizant of the origins of recent actions taken to strip rights granted UP the Constitution of the United States of America.
“Ode to Joy” isn’t going to mount an effective resistance. Lock and Load will.
Well said, Glenn. I’m rooting for all of you and for the success of this new venture. A pox on all politicians.
Little puzzled by the timeline here.
According to the Post – the total surveillance infrastructure “has been in use in one country since 2011″, and five more countries are planned. Petraeus, who said how valuable it was re Iraq, was stationed in Iraq until 2008; he had moved on to a central command position after 2008, and in 2011, he moved to the CIA.
So apparently, we have these facts:
(1) Iraq is under total surveillance;
(2) Only one country is under total surveillance so therefore it must be Iraq;
(3) Total surveillance in Iraq became effective in 2011
(4) Petraeus, who found the spying so invaluable, was not immediately responsible for Iraq by the time total surveillance was effective.
So really, not much adds up. Though to be fair, one thing does sound plausible – that in August 2005 the NSA wanted Iraq under total surveilance, and it took more than 5 years to get there. An IT project over-run of this order is completely believable.
That’s easy enough to resolve. Iraq was under total surveillance, but likely not under the MYSTIC program.
If the deaths caused by leaks are NSA/CIA officials or our volunteer killers (soldiers), then I am fine with that.
How many for-profit acts of aggression does the military industrial complex expect us to fund?
They should solicit funds from the Koch brothers.
I wonder how the government will be able to distinguish between future deaths caused by its own leaking and future deaths caused by Snowden’s revelations.
@Carl: “If the deaths caused by leaks are NSA/CIA officials or our volunteer killers (soldiers), then I am fine with that.”
You realize that the vast majority of our armed service personnel THINK that they’re fighting for something that does not, in fact, exist right? Most of them are kids – who signed up to fight for our country and constitution, want a paid college education, a car, a house, and future security. They step in front of a bullet for you, many have died, many more have been maimed – all for YOUR freedom and privilege to write such a hateful statement, and you condone their murder?
Terrorism® has been manufactured into propaganda … and you sign the death sentence for these kids. You’re quite a patriot. {Slow. Clap.}
The Kochroaches don’t need to fund the MIC … they pay for the politicians who vote to pay FOR those illegal acts of aggression and war – using your tax dollars and social security – and for the bargain they have a senator, congressman, supreme court judge and president to do their corporate bidding just so they can make up to 100+ more billion. They’re not stupid – but they know Americans are, when it comes to how to bury shit in a budget or fix fines/judgements – with no one the wiser. That’s why their lackey’s are called Kochwhores, Kochdealers, and Kochsuckers … and they are.
And you think the Kochs should fund the MIC? You need to get yourself informed, dude. About all that shit your talkin’. SRSLY.
Found a couple of interesting quotes on the back cover of Daniel Ellsberg’s book SECRETS (2002):
“Daniel Ellsberg demonstrated enormous courage during a difficult and turbulent time in America’s history, courage which undoubtedly saved American lives on the battlefield and helped to hold politicians accountable for mistakes they refused to admit. His story reminds us that to fulfill the responsibilities of citizenship is to always ask questions and demand the truth.”
–Senator John F. Kerry
“Secrecy is the greatest threat to democracy. It masks the accountability of government officialdom. Absent the People, with lawmaking powers to correctively react to the revelations of courageous whistleblowers like Daniel Ellsberg, democratic society will remain hostage to the culture of secrecy. Ellsberg’s book reveals the immorality of past leadership. Little has changed since, to alter the corruption of secrecy in government and in the corporate sector.”
–Senator Mike Gravel
@Systemic Fraud
when did Kerry say this?
2002?
1971?
I have never seen a man go under such a large personality shift, as Kerry.
In 1971, he was so articulate and so spot-on.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucY7JOfg6G4
Now, he’s merely boring and banal.
Now, he’s merely boring and banal. War criminal notwithstanding.
Get your facts straight. Skull-and-bones Kerry (JFK) is, and always has been, a tool of the privileged class. He was born to rule – as is the birth right of all nobility.
Mike Gravel was a rare, progressive senator. Kerry once spoke truth to power. Now that he is the Power, he spoke to condemn Snowden. I am happy that he is no longer my senator.
OFF TOPIC — I wonder for how long The Intercept will be like Glenn’s private blog? What are all these proudly announced contributors doing all this time?
A lot of people have obviously posted in the 7 weeks we’ve existed – both to do NSA reporting and to blog – but we were very clear on the first day that we were doing a launch with a preliminary version of ourselves in order 1) to report on NSA documents and 2) to enable me to resume my column writing.
As we expand into our normal operations over the next couple months, things will begin to normalize and everyone – the people on the staff now and those we hire in the future – will be writing a great deal.
Thank you and God bless u. I’m praying for u as you cut this path through the weeds to free our minds
Free your body and the rest will follow.
That’s what my housecat says every time I put his outdoor harness on him.
There’s so much to be learned from cats. Imagine how much better Greenwald’s writing would be if his devotion had been won by cats instead of dogs!
Glenn loves cats.
He should strive for species parity. There are lots of fully qualified cats out there.
How could u possibly know the status of my body?
… do you have a god complex and you want me to pray to you from now on for direction?
“…efforts to persuade….”
These disgusting individuals do not need to be “persuaded”. The establishment media ‘journalists” from both the right and the supposed “left” are well paid shills for multinational corporate controlled “news” (read “propaganda”). The folks I know who think they are “liberal” do not realize they are being had by the likes of NPR and etc. Anyone who works for establishment media in any capacity (or the NSA for that matter) is associating with pure evil and should be absolutely called out and shunned. There is no room for any self-respecting American to be in the employ of any agency or corporate entity which is deliberately undermining social and environmental justice anywhere in the world. Anyone who works for these entities is beyond the pale and has NO excuse for taking pay from the devil. Shun them one and all.
Glenn,
Do you get a kick back from John Stewart of Steven Colbert for material for their comedy news shows?
This is a perfect set up for them. The irony is too much.
Secrets are what I have to keep from you so I can retain my power over you, says the NSA, FBI, CIA, etc.
Indeed, indeed. The government is the straight man for us all.
Given that the US government has leaked this about Iraq, and it’s presumably no big deal to have done so, shouldn’t The Intercept do what The Washington Post did not do, namely, to reveal the country that was targeted for 100% phone surveillance under the MYSTIC program?
Amen! I second that.
And so do I.
Actually, seeing as the NSA and (other) US government officials are playing so downright down & dirty in this whole discussion and debate, it seems to me that GG would by now be well entitled, notwithstanding his agreement with Snowden authorizing him, GG, to use (his own) careful discretion in publishing select materials, to play much more fast and loose than perhaps he has hitherto — this, though, just so long as, for the time being, GG will continue to keep a prudent distance from his homeland. In other words, all the opposing players having shown themselves to be so appallingly venal, it’s all fair game by now — thus, no more prior consultation with officials and, consequently, no more such ‘prior restraint’ on select, ostensibly perilous data; moreover, metaphorically speaking, maybe it’s time to really shoot to kill. Let’s face it — Snowden, and Greenwald, with their journo (haha:) ‘accomplices’ Gellman, Soltani, Poitras, Appelbaum, Schneier, Galagher, etc., have already by now, become the NSA’s — if not the USA’s — richly deserved Armageddon (- thanks also to Assange and Manning, of course). And the US has yet to extend any kind of a welcome back home to its prodigal son, exiled in Moscow. So, as it seems to me, there’d be little more left to lose if, henceforth, the journos were simply to let it all hang out according to their individual capacities to do so. (Not, however, that I am suggesting for a moment that, in all their reporting and polemics, these journos should actually descend to the base rhetoric and mendacity of their detractors, and thereby subvert and forfeit the very righteousness of their position — nota bene. What I am referring to is the prospective revelation of any number more pretty much outrageous ‘facts on the ground’, as per what Snowden bountifully bestowed, via a few of these journos, upon the public domain.) — Oh well, maybe some food for thought, at any rate. This is sure what preoccupies me right now — I guess I am advocating raising the temperature, if at all possible.
DiFi should consider exposing Alexander and Clapper to “enhanced interrogation techniques” in the Senate chambers. They could put it on live pay-for-view and probably make a good dent in the national debt as a result.
Call it NSA Waterworld Day. I’d bet the ratings would drown the Super Bowl.
Holy Shit! Must see TV! I would bye a tv as big as a sheet of plywood and get a cable subscription to see that!
Trouble is, it’d seem both those blokes are on ‘performance enhancing drugs’ and are testosterstoned.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
The whole thought gives me warm fuzzy feelings.
I eagerly look forward to Mr. Dilanian’s next hard-hitting piece where he lets us know all about the unique flavor profile found in the polish Gen. Alexander prefers to use on his boots.
That’s good, really good…
It will be catastrophic if you release Little Weed. Let her go.
No surprise. I wish there were a way, a medium by which we could disseminate these kinds of disclosures/revelations to citizens at large. The impatience of waiting on our collective awareness to reach a critical mass continues to grow; nevertheless, thanks, as always, for shedding more light on the agenda(s) of the dark lodge.
The quote from General BetrayUs is priceless. Coming from a philandering CIA headmaster caught by the email snoops, he should be more circumspect.
Letter Rep. Chaffetz to Holder, Mar 3, (courtesy Fox News). Even making allowances for the ongoing dispute between Holder and House Republicans, it is interesting that the FBI probe into whether Petraeus improperly shared classified information is still open.
Some disclose classified information with impunity, some are imprisoned for it, some are effectively exiled for it and some have the threat of charges continually hovering over them like the sword of Damocles. A very versatile instrument of power and control, leading to the question of whether Petraeus is really a free agent.
All this and much more… Being on this planet is tantamount to unwillingly being subjected to the whim of those in power. Lies and more lies are told to cover up the cover ups. Are we not as a people becoming overwhelmed and tired of all this, I know I am!
Revoultion Cheerleader here…
You are correct. We are all subjects of the powers that be on this planet. Give this idea a thought: that those who are in power are so because they are diseased, suffering from a lack of moral reasoning brought on by a case of psychopathy.
It makes the future seem a lot more accessible to us when you realize that psychopaths rule our lives, and only number 3% of the population, and especially when you realize they have a disease that makes them less human, but makes them believe that WE are less than human and diseased.
ALL we have to do to win is unite, and all we have to do for that is to share understanding of the situation.
Seek understanding, seek agreement and we shall unite. And once we unite and understand why we are enslaved, we can correct the problem in one swift, definitive step and once and for all take the world back for ourselves now and forever.
What you’re describing is not a disease. What they have isn’t cancer, diabetes, or leprosy. What it IS is addiction. These addicts are addicted to power, influence, wealth, property, notoriety/fame.
“Addiction has very little in common with diseases. It is a group of behaviors, not an illness on its own. It cannot be explained by any disease process.” -Psychology Today
They are a Cult: (recognizable characteristics)
–Powerful and exclusive dedication/devotion to an explicit person or creed.
–They use of “thought-reform” programmes to integrate, socialize, persuade and therefore control members.
–A well thought through recruitment, selection and socialization process.
–Attempts to maintain psychological and physical dependency among cult members.
–Cults insist on reprogramming the way people see the world.
–Consistent exploitation of group members specifically to advance the leaders goals.
–Cults nearly always go in for milieu control signals: a different,unfamiliar setting with different rules, terms, behaviour patterns.
–Ultimately using psychological and physical harm to cult members, their friends and relatives and possibly the community as a whole.
–Most cults start their induction by trying to stop both individualistic and critical thinking like the army their job is the first to break you than remake you as one of them. This involves the introduction of a “sacred creed” that members may have to live by. Through open confession and subordination of the individual to the doctrine the cult ensures control and “purity”. Cults deliberately induce powerful emotions like fear, guilt but also pride. They tend to develop their own language, dress and signals which shows their specialness.” -Psychology Today
And each one of them is a megalomanic:
meg·a·lo·ma·nia
: a condition or mental illness that causes people to think that they have great or unlimited power or importance
Full Definition of MEGALOMANIA
1: a mania for great or grandiose performance
2: a delusional mental disorder that is marked by feelings of personal omnipotence and grandeur
There’s no chemo, or insulin, or ointment that can cure their disease. Their minds are polluted on a deeply disturbed level. Most of them desperately need rooms with padded walls. That’s why Alexander’s so concerned about Snowden docs leading to deaths – legitimate paranoia is running rampant at the highest levels and WILL take it’s toll (it’s no coincidence that the finance world has seen a huge jump in suicides) … Everyone should honestly be most concerned by the fact that the most powerful countries on this planet are being run by a cult club of paranoid schizophrenics who are ready to snap. And even I can’t any humor or snark in that.
@El B and Mike Wolf:
I agree with both of you here in that most of those in power are subject to a majority of the symptoms you have listed, or suffer a ‘moral bankruptcy,” for lack of a better term.
Clinical disease or not, I’m no expert, but what both of you describe and list at the very least shows the commingling of destructive behaviors found in those in power and in government, which because money equals power more than ever before, and that less people have more of the money than ever before, we therefore have more screwed up people deciding what is good for us than ever before.
For example, Psychology Today mentions that “psychopathy is among the most difficult disorders to spot. The psychopath can appear normal, even charming. Underneath, they lack conscience and empathy, making them manipulative, volatile and often (but by no means always) criminal. They are an object of popular fascination and clinical anguish: psychopathy is largely impervious to treatment. It is important to note that the vast majority of people with antisocial tendencies are not psychopaths.”
So between the untreatability of psychopathy, the overwhelming cult behaviors, and the army of entrenched sociopaths, we’ve ended up with governments and powerful institutions that are cult-like and unmoral, leaving us with no other option than to purge the entire lot of them, using the most humanely effective methods we have at our disposal.
Mike Wolf + Sillyputty + El … on the same page?
Mind = Blown (… and YAY!!!!)
Thanks Sillyputty – Your last sentence was genius, especially the word “humanely” … Thanks Mike – with the minor exception of the word “disease” everything else you said was spot on. I agree with both of you wholeheartedly.
@El B – Thanks, you made some very good points, as did Mike. We all don’t know everything, and someone else always knows something that we don’t.
And even though Mike thinks today that we are all “children, all of you. Each and every single one of you is an immature children” I’ll still read his posts, because he has things to say that I do agree with, and because I’m not perfect either, nor are you, but we can all learn.
That even includes the likes of Mona, Bill Owen, John Kelly, and, thankfully, a very few others who constantly attack another’s views simply because their post is “too long” or that they happen to post to someone or post a quote from someone that they have put on their nazi-esque hit list. Case in point is the commenter “Blanca,” who was viciously mauled for quoting something I wrote on another Greenwald thread.
So in the end, El B, keep writing and I’ll keep reading; and whatever you do, don’t let those who would silence your thoughts on here do it just because they disagree with you, have them give a reason and a good one.
I’m not worried too much about that though, because, unlike the most vociferous bunch on here trying to shut people up, you have the stones to stand behind what you say and think, and the ability to acknowledge when you’ve learned something from someone else on here without resorting to the savagery and censorship that Mona, Bill and John seem to thrive upon.
Best regards, Sillyputty
“I’ll still read his posts, because he has things to say…”
— Just as I do doll, just as -I-/we- all- do.
“That even includes the likes of Mona, Bill Owen, John Kelly, and, thankfully, a very few others who constantly attack … someone that they have put on their nazi-esque hit list. ”
— That may be how you see it – I don’t see that from them at all. I’m not going to argue this point – “To each his own”, as they say.
“… commenter “Blanca,” who was viciously mauled …”
— Blanca/Wilma asks for it every. damn. time. Then cries “bully” and “groupthink” when she gets racked over the coals. What comes around, goes around … and we’re just gunna have to agree to disagree on your point of view regarding this statement.
“… unlike the most vociferous bunch on here trying to shut people up…”
— I too have told people to STFU and to get lost. Plenty of times.
“… you’ve learned … without resorting to the savagery and censorship that Mona, Bill and John seem to thrive upon.”
— They are my teachers as much as anyone else on this site. IMHO – They bring a layer of context to the dialogue that I/many readers are ignorant of and I have followed their many links (and sometimes their phrasing/references to google/wikipedia) and appreciate their perspectives. They’re also keenly adept at when to turn the other cheek and starve a troll … something I’m sorely lacking. But I’m scrappy – and if, as you say, I: “… have the stones to stand behind what you say and think…” then it’s to their credit as much as it is to yours, Wilma’s, Mike Wolf’s, CraigSummers’, et al. I can only take credit for not being afraid of throwing my gloves off, every now and then, just for an honest-to-goodness street fight or brawl. Meh – I reckon itz jus pauta mah chahm.
Regards backatcha.
Savagery and censorship? Preposterous.
I have not attacked anyone. I, like you, have commented on posts here. I commented on a few of the posts in which you kept repeating your favorite phrase dozens of times. If you consider that an attack, you are indeed thin-skinned.
Blanca parroted your repetitive verbal spray pattern so that we readers here at the Intercept have to continue to scroll endlessly through the same crap over and over to get to something of substance. She was not “viciously mauled” as you put it. Hyperboli and Hypocrisy all rolled into one delicious snack. Do carry on.
Your paranoia is showing. Very revealing.
@John Kelly: so is his fork tongue… Miley’s got nothin’ compared to Sillyshit!
I’m getting a real kick out of spreading the word to everyone; every piece that I come across, as I scan numerous sources daily, is copied, and emailed with the link to everyone I know, personally, and in business.
The creatures running the NSA and certain other agencies, for all their competence, are extraordinarily dumb…
@Mel Farrell: Cheerleader here … you keep on keepin’ on kicking!!! I was just having breakfast at my fave local-dive-diner and had 3 tables all discussing this shit. Made my day!
… and “dumb”? They’re a cult of psychopaths! Tell all your friends :-D
While it is outstanding to have a news source as accurate as this one, I can read the anger and emotion in your words. I feel this has little place here and would request that the examples of FOX news and the like are not followed. I have a great deal of respect for your work.
R/
muhib
He should be angry. Now can I tell you what tone to adopt in your posts? Please.
I would gladly welcome any feedback sir.
I just gave you some. Glenn is often derided for his tone, his sarcasm, etc. Most often it’s just a way to distract readers from what he is reporting on, which is the most important thing. NOT saying that you are doing this. Thanks.
Not sure what is wrong with expressing outrage, particularly when done in a professional, articulate and informative way. I’m glad these issues piss off Greenwald; they piss me off. Anger can make a wonderful servant, someone once said; it can pull one out of complacency on many levels. Everyone is entitled to their own perceptions, but I struggle to see your comparison of The Intercept and Fox.
Regards
I agree that Fox is clearly a poor choice and tbh I don’t see any real comparison with any MSM outlet to the intercept except the emotional standpoints taken. It is a hard sell to the american public already and it is made more difficult with anger. It is important to be dispassionate above so that we are not labeled as conspiracy nuts despite evidence to the contrary. If I were working at the NSA discrediting and dismissing a source could only be made easier by strong emotional news posts.
Hi Muhib, I respectfully disagree. Some of us need to hear the outrage we feel expressed (however mildly) by somebody in the media, and Glenn does a great job of calling out hypocrisy and getting a little dig in at the powerful fascists that control most of the narrative at the same time as he is educating those who pay attention. These people need to be ridiculed for their outrageous lies, abuses, and crimes.
It is a little like the function that Keith Olbermann performed with his special comments when Bush and Co. were spreading their propaganda through a mostly subservient (read ass kissing) media, and having their scrotums cupped by most of the elite political class of the time… many of whom still roam the halls of our institutions grubbing for fascist dollars.
@Muhib: “tbh I don’t see any real comparison with any MSM outlet to the intercept except the emotional standpoints taken.”
Really? You see absolutely no difference between ABC/CBS/NBC/CNN/FOX/MSNBC/HLN and The Intercept? I’m practically speechless at that statement – but I’ll get over it in two shakes …
GG/TI is reporting factual information based on 10,000 (I think that’s right) documents (seized by ES in the name of truth, liberty and justice and our Constitutional rights/freedoms) which entirely discredit more than a dozen countries who are criminally & illegally infiltrating every home, business and governmental/political agency and administration, in the name of Terrorism® masked behind industrial espionage, war engineering & profiteering, natural resources, real estate, banking/finance, religion, election fixing, etc. (and God knows what else) and rubber stamped every leading political figure within those countrys – and everyone underneath him (because shit rolls downhill) … And GG is doing this professionally, ethically, responsibly, (and IMHO) unselfishly – working and writing like a journalistic bad-ass mad-dog (and this website is free and accessible to any/everyone to boot) – PURELY for YOUR benefit and all the other billions of citizens within these countries whose privacy (and many other) rights and freedoms (most all of them) have been reverse engineered and stripped without their knowledge or consent … While so little, if any of it’s getting reported because the corporate and political elite own MSM and they not only don’t have to report it – they don’t even have to tell the truth about any of it if they ever choose to report it. And you see no difference between MSM and GG?
“It is a hard sell to the american public already and it is made more difficult with anger.”
It’s not hard to sell the American public … American’s are as easy as they are obese – junk food, fast food, fried food, mood food, food fights, food tv … that’s all MSM does – along with the ESPN, Kardashians, Duck Dynasty, Game of Thrones, Scandal and whatever in the hell else turns the viewing public into mindless, fat, zombies. America is at the mall or plastic surgeon right now trying to look like all those MSM “celebrities” while chowing down … MSM is junk TV for the soul (and soulless). Most of my fellow countrymen are pretty much checked out right now – haven’t you noticed? But GG is no better than MSM?
It is important to be dispassionate above so that we are not labeled as conspiracy nuts despite evidence to the contrary
Passionate emotional responses are more than warranted … and if the reporting here ceases – and/or if those responses don’t swell to a deafening roar soon – then we’ll ALL be watching MSM (with rabbit ears) in cellblock at the Fema Camp choking down 5-year old MRE’s with non-potable water. The time to be pissed off is now. Tell all your friends. Srsly.
Applause!
“Passionate emotional responses are more than warranted”
Yes, encouraging little people to squabble in the “Game of Drones” is far more preferable than passively watching them on the “Game of Thrones” (All New Season: Apr 6, 2014 – Check your local listings for airing times):)
Proofread … When will I learn. ~~~SMDH~~~
I’ll try to clarify my thoughts…
GG/TI is reporting factual information based on 10,000 (I think that’s right) documents (seized by ES in the name of truth, liberty and justice and our Constitutional rights/freedoms) which entirely discredit more than a dozen countries [AND THEIR LEADERS]who are criminally & illegally infiltrating every home, business and governmental/political agency and administration, in the name of Terrorism® masked behind industrial espionage, war engineering & profiteering, natural resources, real estate, banking/finance, religion, election fixing, etc. (and God knows what else) and rubber stamped [BY] every leading political figure within those [COUNTRIES] – and everyone underneath [THEM] …
FML… I’m not even gunna try to rewrite the free association that poured out above cuz I’m afraid on crapflooding – or effing it up all over again!
P u u u u l-e e e e ze… edit button.
Feigned outrage such as, say, Bill O’reilly’s pouts about “The War on Christmas” are hardly comparable to the disgust or anger included in the tone of this factual article about NSA apologists bragging about leaks at the same time that they accuse others of endangering lives when publishing leaks. This is a real issue with real consequences to those who are reporting on it. I dig big time reading the emotion behind the author, in this case Glenn Greenwald, writing about it. I don’t desire or require having information fed to me dispassionately. You apparently think that dispassion is the “Professional” way to inform and report?
I feel rather that the emotional take on news is best left to MSM stooges and it has gone too far in that direction. We came here to be informed, then perhaps to vent down in the comments as we are now. We came here to reverse the direction that MSM has taken, so why not attempt to be better.
News should be held to a higher standard is my point, taking a position can be left to discussion boards like this one not in line with the text of a professional report. The content is amazing though, I want to be clear in that.
Read more closely. Glenn changes his tone according to the section he is posting in. This is in “dispatches” and his feelings about the matter must have spurred his decision to post urgently and to use some “stream of concious” perspective. He hardly uses emotion in his “news” articles but instead uses precision and keen analysis worthy of a legal expert.
This “magazine” has a “voices” section, and thank god. There is a place for opinion amongst the hard news. Go back and read some Matt Taibbi in Rolling Stone. He will probably put some heavy TONE in the financial magazine soon. Think of all the stoner, rock-and-roll kids that read Taibbi in RS and woke up years or decades earlier than they might have to systemic financial abuses (and mechanisms).
It woud help to understand this and other stories if there was sufficient understanding of the purpose, nature, and efficacy of propaganda.
I encourage the staff of The Intercept to consider creating a guide to propaganda and publishing it for the benefit of those readers who are dependent upon journalists to do their thinking for them.
Otherwise, if the reader wishes to understand what this all means, I suggest reading up on Propaganda. Start with Wikipedia. Then just keep going from there. Seek to understand what propaganda is, and how it affects your every decision.
I wish I had the time, otherwise I would write a definitive guide. If anyone has questions, I’ll happily answer them.
Otherwise, I have a show which is no more than propaganda – of the good kind. If you would like to see how propaganda can be used for good, check it out. It’s under the username zapocalypse diaries on that popular video website that everyone goes to (no ads, no money made on it.)
Note to anyone still reading this maniac. The video is absolute nonsense. Do not view.
you tend to disparage people quite a lot when you don’t agree with the what and how they express themselves. perhaps you aren’t aware of it.
thanks for the apparent concern, but I think most can decide for ourselves what to watch or read, etc. . . .
regards
I have had it with people telling me what to say. I will say what I want. I tell him what I think you tell me what you think.
Great!
“Bill Owen
31 Mar 2014 at 2:05 pm
Note to anyone still reading this maniac. The video is absolute nonsense. Do not view.”
“Bill Owen
31 Mar 2014 at 3:00 pm
I have had it with people telling me what to say. I will say what I want.”
So Bill, are you saying that its okay for you to tell other people what to watch, what to think, but not for people to tell you what to say?
Isn’t that what the previous story is about, a story which you posted several thousand useless words on in your continuing disruptive banter? It’s something called a double standard, and in case you hadn’t noticed, you are exhibing the precise characteristics these stories are about.
Perhaps you should spend more time reading the stories, and less time spamming these boards with your efforts to create chaos in a world that is already falling apart. Bill, your efforts, your words, are not welcome. We are seeking togetherness, you are seeking disparity. Your efforts are misguided. No one has respect for what you do, and the only attention you get is not even directed at you, it is at your expense for the benefit of others who read this. The only people engaged in “conversation” with you are the others on here who deem these boards as their personal playground.
Go away and let us fix the world. Play your childish games elsewhere.
LOL
“Go away and let us fix the world.” Wolf
lol lol lmfao
So let me get this straight. This head case can post anything, as often as his misfiring neurons dictate, including links to videos on zombies, he can blog whore, he can go completely OT, at extreme length, and I can’t reply honestly and frankly? Is that your position?
Looks that way to me Bill Owen.
– Bill Owen
And then, less than an hour later:
– Bill Owen
Bill, you continue to prove that you are completely hypocritical with your attempts to censor others on here, in addition to being completely intolerant of others views.
Instead of trying to continually tell others not to read or view something (also known as censoring), why not take the extraordinary view and allow others the same freedoms that you enjoy – you know, the freedom of expression, freedom of speech and the freedom to make their own choices as to what to read, to watch, or to listen to.
Regards, Silyputty
dnr and never will
An Open Letter To Lyra1, Bill Owen, et al. –
”Would you actually say what you’ve said on here about Mike Wolf to his face?
As for the claim that others on here are acting as the “thought police” for calling you out on this inappropriate behavior? – the hypocrisy of that statement, coming from those who belittle, besmirch, chide, deride, and ridicule others on here, particularly someone who admits to mental health issues, is beyond the pale.
And that you think what you say and how you say it is part of the solution, and not actually part the problem, is just another symptom of your disconnect from how people actually should behave to one another in a civilized society.
George Clooney notes that at some point in their life everyone needs someone to tell remind them “what’s what.”
In this case, that’s me, and this is “what’s what” regarding your continuing indefensible and thoughtless behavior towards others on this site:
So for you folks – some advice from humanity, in an excerpt from Netiquette, by Virginia Shea:
Rule 1: Remember the human
The golden rule your parents and your kindergarten teacher taught you was pretty simple: Do unto others as you’d have others do unto you. Imagine how you’d feel if you were in the other person’s shoes. Stand up for yourself, but try not to hurt people’s feelings.
In cyberspace, we state this in an even more basic manner: Remember the human.
When you communicate electronically, all you see is a computer screen. You don’t have the opportunity to use facial expressions, gestures, and tone of voice to communicate your meaning; words — lonely written words — are all you’ve got. And that goes for your correspondent as well.
When you’re holding a conversation online — whether it’s an email exchange or a response to a discussion group posting — it’s easy to misinterpret your correspondent’s meaning. And it’s frighteningly easy to forget that your correspondent is a person with feelings more or less like your own.
It’s ironic, really. Computer networks bring people together who’d otherwise never meet. But the impersonality of the medium changes that meeting to something less — well, less personal. Humans exchanging email often behave the way some people behind the wheel of a car do: They curse at other drivers, make obscene gestures, and generally behave like savages. Most of them would never act that way at work or at home.
But the interposition of the machine seems to make it acceptable.
The message is that it’s not acceptable. Yes, use your network connections to express yourself freely, explore strange new worlds, and boldly go where you’ve never gone before.
Would you say it to the person’s face?
Writer and Macintosh evangelist Guy Kawasaki tells a story about getting email from some fellow he’s never met. Online, this fellow tells Guy that he’s a bad writer with nothing interesting to say.
Unbelievably rude? Yes, but unfortunately, it happens all the time in cyberspace.
Maybe it’s the awesome power of being able to send mail directly to a well-known writer like Guy. Maybe it’s the fact that you can’t see his face crumple in misery as he reads your cruel words. Whatever the reason, it’s incredibly common.
Guy proposes a useful test for anything you’re about to post or mail: Ask yourself, “Would I say this to the person’s face?” If the answer is no, rewrite and reread. Repeat the process till you feel sure that you’d feel as comfortable saying these words to the live person as you do sending them through cyberspace.
Of course, it’s possible that you’d feel great about saying something extremely rude to the person’s face. In that case, Netiquette can’t help you. Go get a copy of Miss Manners’ Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior.
Regards,
Sillyputty
I also investigated this series of videos and concluded after approximately one minute of viewing one video that the subject author had been totally brainwashed into believing in the so-called science of Psychiatry and Psycho-Therapy.
Some investigative reporter or scientist you’d make. One minute of observing something as complex as a human being and you jump to this conclusion?
I’ve read most of your comments and perused the links that you’ve provided, and still haven’t reached this remarkably insightful diagnosis on you.
What gives you the right?
This is the last time that I will respond to any comment that you direct to me.
You are not the “thought police.” That is your delusion of grandeur.
Everybody in this world does not have to conform to your narcissism.
Believe it or not, other people are free to think and form opinions without your approval.
I don’t care what you think about me because I don’t like you. Please feel free to ignore me just as I ignore you. Hopefully, that is clear enough for you.
Use your scroll wheel. Better yet, stick it up your pompous ass.
An Open Letter To Lyra1, Bill Owen, et al. –
”Would you actually say what you’ve said on here about Mike Wolf to his face?
As for the claim that others on here are acting as the “thought police” for calling you out on this inappropriate behavior? – the hypocrisy of that statement, coming from those who belittle, besmirch, chide, deride, and ridicule others on here, particularly someone who admits to mental health issues, is beyond the pale.
And that you think what you say and how you say it is part of the solution, and not actually part the problem, is just another symptom of your disconnect from how people actually should behave to one another in a civilized society.
George Clooney notes that at some point in their life everyone needs someone to tell remind them “what’s what.”
In this case, that’s me, and this is “what’s what” regarding your continuing indefensible and thoughtless behavior towards others on this site:
So for you folks – some advice from humanity, in an excerpt from Netiquette, by Virginia Shea:
Rule 1: Remember the human
The golden rule your parents and your kindergarten teacher taught you was pretty simple: Do unto others as you’d have others do unto you. Imagine how you’d feel if you were in the other person’s shoes. Stand up for yourself, but try not to hurt people’s feelings.
In cyberspace, we state this in an even more basic manner: Remember the human.
When you communicate electronically, all you see is a computer screen. You don’t have the opportunity to use facial expressions, gestures, and tone of voice to communicate your meaning; words — lonely written words — are all you’ve got. And that goes for your correspondent as well.
When you’re holding a conversation online — whether it’s an email exchange or a response to a discussion group posting — it’s easy to misinterpret your correspondent’s meaning. And it’s frighteningly easy to forget that your correspondent is a person with feelings more or less like your own.
It’s ironic, really. Computer networks bring people together who’d otherwise never meet. But the impersonality of the medium changes that meeting to something less — well, less personal. Humans exchanging email often behave the way some people behind the wheel of a car do: They curse at other drivers, make obscene gestures, and generally behave like savages. Most of them would never act that way at work or at home.
But the interposition of the machine seems to make it acceptable.
The message is that it’s not acceptable. Yes, use your network connections to express yourself freely, explore strange new worlds, and boldly go where you’ve never gone before.
Would you say it to the person’s face?
Writer and Macintosh evangelist Guy Kawasaki tells a story about getting email from some fellow he’s never met. Online, this fellow tells Guy that he’s a bad writer with nothing interesting to say.
Unbelievably rude? Yes, but unfortunately, it happens all the time in cyberspace.
Maybe it’s the awesome power of being able to send mail directly to a well-known writer like Guy. Maybe it’s the fact that you can’t see his face crumple in misery as he reads your cruel words. Whatever the reason, it’s incredibly common.
Guy proposes a useful test for anything you’re about to post or mail: Ask yourself, “Would I say this to the person’s face?” If the answer is no, rewrite and reread. Repeat the process till you feel sure that you’d feel as comfortable saying these words to the live person as you do sending them through cyberspace.
Of course, it’s possible that you’d feel great about saying something extremely rude to the person’s face. In that case, Netiquette can’t help you. Go get a copy of Miss Manners’ Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior.
Regards,
Sillyputty
“When the NSA does it, that means that it’s not illegal.” – anonymous
Try to keep up Glenn!