Like most of what he writes and says, Ali Abunimah’s new book, The Battle for Justice in Palestine, is provocative, erudite, impassioned, aggressive, and certain to make even some political allies uncomfortable with their tacitly held beliefs (beginning with the book’s very first sentence: “The Palestinians are winning”). One need not agree with all of his views to find the book well worth reading. So much ink has been spilled on Israel and Palestine that at times it seems impossible to encounter anything new or stimulating, but the arguments Abunimah assembles here are so thoughtful and forceful, and placed within a comprehensive, long-cultivated coherent perspective, that it’s almost impossible to read it without thinking about all sorts of old questions in new ways. That this outlook is so rarely heard in Western establishment media circles makes it all the more valuable.
Below is an excerpt regarding the coordinated campaign on American campuses to suppress pro-Palestinian advocacy and Israel critiques by equating them with hate speech. This, he argues, is part of a broader effort to render any fundamental critiques of Israel illegitimate in leading American opinion-making institutions. The excerpt has been adapted by Abunimah for publication here, with minor editing and the omission of the book’s ample footnotes:
_________________________
The War on Campus
American public support for Israel remains strong, but the “growing cracks” in that support are most evident on campus, according to the David Project, and universities across America form “the leading venue for anti-Israel activity and the spread of anti-Israelism.” The case for working to stop this dangerous trend is clear: universities are not only “where the thinking of America’s future political leadership is molded” but also “where the worldview of a large swath of influential people outside of the political class as well as the population at large is largely formed.”
These warnings are contained in the David Project’s 2012 white paper, A Burning Campus? Rethinking Israel Advocacy at America’s Universities and Colleges. This document can be seen as the university-focused counterpart of the Reut Institute’s 2010 blueprint for suppressing Palestine solidarity activism and criticism of Israel more broadly. The David Project, a four-million-dollar-per-year organization focusing on Zionist advocacy on campuses, was founded in 2002 and became notorious in the early 2000s for its witch hunt against Columbia University professor Joseph Massad as well as its aggressively Islamophobic rhetoric. Under new leadership, the group has entered the mainstream of Israel advocacy in the United States and now boasts partners including AIPAC, the Hasbara Fellowships, Hillel, Scholars for Peace in the Middle East, the Jewish Federation of New York, and Taglit–Birthright Israel, the organization that sends thousands of young North American Jews on free trips to Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories.
The white paper criticizes earlier approaches to suppressing Palestine solidarity activism and academic inquiry related to Israel on campus, and lays out a new framework. The old approach involved confronting and debating. The new strategy, directly inspired by the Reut Institute, emphasizes making friends and influencing people. Surprisingly, the paper demolishes the notion, long promoted by Zionist groups, that American college campuses are rife with anti-Semitism. “Most American campuses are not hostile environments for most Jewish students,” the paper acknowledges.“Racial antisemitism of the kind most associated with the Nazis is not likely a serious problem on any American college campus.” Claiming otherwise “does not jive with the lived experience of many Jewish students, who know they can identify as Jews and largely not suffer repercussions.”Consequently, “depicting campus as hostile to Jews has not to date proven to be an effective strategy for decreasing anti-Israelism.”For anyone committed to the struggle against racism in any form, the lack of anti-Semitism on campus can only be good news. But for Zionist organizations it makes the campus environment a more challenging, though no less central, battleground. To solve the problem posed by the absence of anti-Semitism, the David Project has promoted a new term, “anti-Israelism,” which it describes as “a specific form of bigotry targeted against the modern state of Israel.”This redefinition—as we shall see—is a crucial element in the effort to restrict campus discussions of Israel’s racist practices or its claim to have a right to exist as a Jewish state.
In the rest of the world, where Israel is generally unpopular, pro-Israel advocates are fighting to halt efforts to turn it into an “international pariah akin to apartheid South Africa.”But in the United States, where support for Israel is much broader, the David Project argues, the “battle” is to “maintain long-term two-party support. It’s not good enough that we stop the US from becoming anti-Israel. We have to make sure the US remains pro-Israel.”Yet the analysis predicts “long-term bipartisan support for a strong relationship between Israel and the United States cannot be assured if the environments of key universities and colleges are largely negative toward the Jewish state.” Simply put, allowing higher education to continue “in a milieu of pervasive negativity toward Israel by further generations of students may significantly weaken long-term American government support for the Jewish state.” A related danger is that “anti-Israelism” would spread since the university “often serves as an incubator for social trends that go on to have a wide impact in society at large.” These are high stakes.
The David Project identifies four “primary trends” that must be tackled if the dire situation is to be turned around. These are “a long-standing campus predilection toward relativism, postmodernism, and the views of the global left”; “the promotion of anti-Israelism by professors”; “Jewish student apathy and ignorance”; and “the unwillingness of administrators to treat anti-Israelism in the same manner as they treat other forms of bigotry.”
These supposed “trends” provide a useful framework to understand some of the tactics that have been used—some but not necessarily all practiced or advocated by the David Project itself—to cultivate and co-opt “influencers” and “campus celebrities” whom Israel lobby groups identify as key potential allies. These include witch hunts and attacks on individual professors; using criminal and civil legal proceedings to define protest and criticism of Israel as “bigotry” or hate speech; fostering Islamophobia and other forms of intimidation and bullying; and “positive” strategies—similar to pinkwashing and greenwashing. Yet despite all these tactics, which have at times taken a hard toll on individual students and faculty, campus Palestine solidarity movements continue to grow and forge promising new alliances.
The David Project sees the war on critics of Israel as a war on the left more broadly. It argues that campus has long been used by “a segment of ideologically committed faculty and graduate students to promote radical left politics, within which the Palestinian cause is increasingly popular.” The university is also the “most likely mainstream venue in American society to reflect the trends of the global left, absorbing the ethos of the United Nations and related international organizations, as well as human-rights organizations like Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, all of which have long histories of undue focus” on Israel. This dangerous receptivity to the human-rights values developed in the wake of the horrors of the Second World War and the Holocaust is only made worse by the ideological flaws of university faculties: “By overwhelming percentages, professors self-identify on the left of the political spectrum,” the David Project asserts. It also faults “a bias against Western views of history and social progress, seeking to empower voices perceived to be on the margins of history.” This assertion echoes the critique University of Chicago professor Alan Bloom made in his influential 1987 book The Closing of the American Mind, which faulted the abandonment of canonical “Western” thought for opening the universities to 1960s radicalism and cultural relativism. Bloom’s thesis became the rallying cry for the Reagan-era conservative attack on universities that has continued to the present. Because “Israel defines itself and is defined as a part of the West,” the David Project claims, “this kind of thinking also lends itself to a bias against Israel and Israeli perspectives.” In other words, universities that foster respect for human rights and international law, teach students to think critically, and encourage them to seek out marginalized voices and narratives, represent a grave danger to Israel. Although this threat might arise anywhere, the David Project singles out Columbia University and the University of California, Berkeley, as examples of universities that “can serve as the most important and influential node” in the “anti-Israel” network. These campuses have been targets of relentless attacks from various Zionist groups
Not all academic disciplines represent an equal threat to Israel in the eyes of the David Project. The most dangerous are the humanities and social sciences, alleged hotbeds of radicalism and leftism. The white paper predicts that a long-term decline in these disciplines and the rise of business and economics departments, whose faculty tend to be more politically “balanced,” is likely to be beneficial to Israel. The popularity of business schools also provides an opportunity for Israel to be marketed as a high-tech “startup nation,” and the David Project notes that some business schools “offer special-themed courses and trips to Israel, sometimes after students take a longer course focusing on Israel’s business history and climate.” The David Project also sees another promising development in the rise of for-profit colleges, which tend to offer majors focused on employment skills, especially among students of disadvantaged socioeconomic backgrounds. The fact that the for-profit education industry has offered poor education at high cost, often preying on financially vulnerable students, is not mentioned as a concern. These “emerging campus trends” offer Israel advocates a strategic opportunity since narrowly vocational or business- focused majors “are not generally concerned with political issues, making the introduction of anti-Israel narratives into course work less likely, whatever the proclivity of individual professors.” If teaching critical thinking, fostering respect for human- rights values, and nurturing the humanities and social sciences are dangers to Israel, then dumbing down and privatizing education is good for the Jewish state.
Intimidating Institutions
There is no place at any university for professors to physically or verbally assault students, to use epithets against them, or to coerce them into adopting particular viewpoints, former Columbia University provost Jonathan Cole sensibly observes. Students and employees alike should be protected from discrimination based on race, ethnicity, religion, sex, or sexual orientation. These prohibitions properly give rise to codes of conduct at universities and other places of work that allow victims to make grievances and to seek protection and redress. But, Cole warns, “the codes that place limits on conduct must never be directed at the content of ideas—however offensive they may be to students, faculty, alumni, benefactors or politicians.” Cole accuses the David Project of doing precisely that by trying to “blur the distinction between speech and action” and accusing “professors of inappropriate action and intimidation when they are actually trying to attack the content of their ideas.” He also notes that most of the attacks have been leveled against social scientists and faculty in the humanities, the very disciplines singled out by the David Project’s white paper as areas where most “anti-Israel” teaching allegedly takes place. The damage done by the assault on academic freedom will not be limited to those disciplines most targeted, he warns, but will harm everyone in the university community.
There are disturbing parallels between the kinds of witch hunts against individuals suspected of anti-Israel views and the campaigns to root out alleged Communists during the 1940s and 1950s. Most universities then, as now, did not show great courage in standing up to intimidation by government and other outside groups, while some were actually complicit.
One of the rare exceptions, a forceful defender of academic freedom and a public opponent of the anticommunist crusades, was Robert Maynard Hutchins, president of the University of Chicago from 1929 to 1951. “The question is not how many professors have been fired for their beliefs, but how many think they might be,” Hutchins said in 1947. “The entire teaching profession is intimidated.” This can be updated: the question now is not how many professors have faced the Israel lobby’s vilification campaigns, legal threats, and attempts to interfere with their careers and in what they can and can’t teach inside the classroom and say or do outside it, but how many think they might be targeted if they don’t self-censor when it comes to the topic of Palestine and the Israelis.
As noted, the David Project is frank about the failure of Zionist groups’ efforts to falsely portray US campuses as hotbeds of anti-Semitism and proposes the new term “anti-Israelism,” which it defines in the following manner:
The key belief of anti-Israelism is that Israel is an illegitimate state with no moral claim to past, present, or continued existence under its own definition as a Jewish state. Anti-Israelism is usually, but not always, combined with longstanding anti- Jewish claims that the Jews are not a people, and therefore do not have the same rights (i.e. self-determination) as other peoples do. An “anti-Israelist” is a believer in anti-Israelism.
As also noted, the David Project defines “anti-Israelism” as “a specific form of bigotry targeted against the modern state of Israel.” It follows, then, that any questioning of Zionism’s political claims or the policies or practices of Israel necessary to maintain “its own definition as a Jewish state” is “bigotry.” This would mean by extension that calling for full and equal rights for Palestinian citizens of Israel is bigotry; calling for Palestinian refugees to be allowed to exercise their right of return is bigotry; criticizing the Jewish National Fund’s openly discriminatory land allocation policies is bigotry; and so on. “Jews are a people with a right to self-determination in their historic, ancestral homeland, a right expressed through the modern state of Israel,” the white paper asserts. “Claims to the contrary, or that Israel cannot both define itself as a ‘Jewish’ state and a democracy that protects the rights of all of its citizens, are wrong and dangerous and therefore beyond the pale of reasonable debate.” The significance of this attempt to redefine substantive arguments and support for the rights of the Palestinian people as a form of hate speech should not be underestimated. In the absence of anti-Semitism, the David Project’s goal is nothing less than to censor such discussions on campus by bringing them within the purview of disciplinary procedures normally reserved for cases of harassment, abuse, and discrimination.
There might be some comfort in recognizing the David Project’s as a concession that Zionist advocates cannot win arguments. But irrespective of the term used, the goal remains the same: to stifle and censor discussion of Israel. These tactics have been aggressive and costly for students and faculty alike.
The attacks on speech and academic inquiry related to Israel should be seen in the broader context of the assault on the independence of universities in the years following the September 11, 2001, attacks. Cole notes two significant shifts: first, in contrast to the McCarthy period, the attacks are now spearheaded by private groups, albeit with strong government support; second, the primary target is increasingly the university as an institution, rather than an obsession with rooting out individual faculty suspected of disloyalty or thought crimes. Outside advocacy groups, Cole observes, “have long had the resources to lobby government figures, and to organize alumni and students, with the goal of generating public outrage and eventual pressure on the university to abandon some of its basic commitments.” But during the George W. Bush era, “they had a powerful voice in the White House and the ranks of their followers swelled, largely because of the 9/11 attacks and the fears of terrorism that came to the surface.”
The most damaging attacks on universities centered on the question of Palestine and often involved the collusion of members of Congress from both the Democratic and Republican parties, as well as targeting both public and private sources of support for academic research.
What Cole dubs “the most troubling case” has had a lasting impact. In 2003, the Jewish Telegraphic Agency published a series of articles by Edwin Black alleging that grants made by the Ford Foundation to support Palestinian nongovernmental organizations had been “misused” to fund “terrorism” and the distribution of “anti- Semitic” and “anti-Zionist” material. Some of the Palestinian organizations that had received funds participated in the 2001 United Nations conference on racism in Durban, South Africa, which was boycotted by the United States and Israel. But, Cole notes, Black’s articles “did not present any evidence that the Ford Foundation had violated American laws or that its funds for Palestinian groups were being misused for support of ‘terrorist’ activities.” Indeed, there was “not one piece of direct evidence that suggests that the flow of Ford dollars went to support ‘terrorists,’ unless [one] considers all Palestinian groups ‘terrorist’ supporters.” But the facts made no difference to the massive campaign that ensued as leaders of major Zionist organizations, including the American Jewish Committee, the Anti-Defamation League, and the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations, denounced the Ford Foundation and demanded congressional investigations. This outcry triggered threats from Democratic congressman Jerrold Nadler, who circulated a petition signed by twenty colleagues demanding that the Ford Foundation stop funding “anti-Israel hate groups.”
The foundation, which had been “one of the few willing to endure criticism and still fund Palestinian groups,” crumbled under pressure. Ford admitted it had been wrong, even though the allegations were simply false, and “embraced ‘advisors’ from the Jewish organizations to help assess” its grants. The fallout of the attack had a direct impact on universities because the Ford Foundation is also a major funder of their research. Capitulating to the Israel lobby groups, the foundation imposed a condition that universities receiving funding had to sign a letter including this statement: “By countersigning this grant letter, you agree that your organization will not promote or engage in violence, terrorism, bigotry or the destruction of any state, nor will it make sub-grants to any entity that engages in these activities.” The term “destruction of any state” is a clear indication that, even though it is not named, this policy is all about Israel. Zionist organizations routinely claim that any advocacy for Palestinian rights that calls for the implementation of international law on the right of return of refugees, or abolishing laws that privilege Jews at the expense of Pales- tinians, is tantamount to calling for the “destruction of Israel” or even, in the David Project’s new definition, bigotry. Although nine universities objected and negotiated a separate deal with the Ford Foundation, Cole laments that the policy stood with little outcry overall. Because of the Ford Foundation’s size and influence, its imposition of content-related limitations on its grants was emulated by other major donors to university research, including the Rockefeller Foundation.
In this and other instances, the freedom to engage in Palestine-related speech, research, and teaching came under direct, intense attack, but these attacks were also used as levers for a much broader assault on the independence of universities by individuals and organizations intent on curtailing dissent or critical inquiry related to US global power and hegemony. These incidents serve as warnings that any institution where uncensored speech about Palestine takes place may find itself at the center of a congressional and media storm accusing it of supporting anything ranging from “anti-Americanism” to “terrorism” and the “destruction of Israel.”


Allthough I admire John Quigley’s book it’s Ali Abunimah’s which truly deserves the title “The Case for Palestine”. It prooves that he pen is mightier than the sword and this book is devastating. I experienced for myselft that the Hasbarats have not the slightest chance against Abunimah’s arguments.
These guys are right, most Americans are not anti-Semites – but the Israeli government is. Semites are people of middle-Eastern stock. Arabs are Semites. European Jews are not. Many people oppose the Tel Aviv government over its racist policies of ‘Jewish purity’. Racial purity was one of the foundations of Nazism. So were ghettos and the demonization of minority groups. Israel needs to wake up to its own history – a bunch of pacifist Woody Allens thery are not.
THIS IS A (FICTITIOUS) LETTER THAT THE WORLD WOULD LIKE TO SEE. IT IS HEREBY CLEARLY IDENTIFIED AS SATIRE SO IT MEETS YOUR TERMS OF USE REQUIREMENTS.
May 1, 2014
Dear Pierre,
It is with deep regret—and, frankly, a fair amount of personal chagrin—that the five of us are collectively submitting our resignation from First Look Media.
Pierre, when you first approached us about starting up the Intercept, and the range of publications that you said would transform the face of American Media—taking it, finally, out of the hands of Rupert Murdoch, we cheered and were eager to jump on board: We trusted you.
But you have seen fit to appointed Gawker- and Entertainment Weekly-trained click baiters to lord it over us. And you have hired mainstream media stenographers and corporate flacks to staff First Look’s “properties,” as you so succinctly put it. We do feel somewhat betrayed. We realize that we have signed multi-year, non-disclosure and non-compete contracts, but we feel that you were disingenuous when you propositioned us, and so, we are willing to risk a few court battles if necessary to regain our journalistic integrity.
Today is our last day at First Look, but before we are escorted out, will you please, please, please return Snowden’s NSA files? We regret handing them over to you, as they contain a lot of information that belongs to the American people (and that, no doubt, will inspire more than a few lucrative NASDAQ shorts). It is bad enough, Pierre, that you and the NSA have played us for chumps, but … what will Snowden think? That we betrayed him for money and fame, that is what. You have taken our professional honor, please give us back our laptops.
Sincerely,
Glenn, Jeremy, Laura, Matt & Eric
How about we let Snowden speak for himself, and you tuck you febrile imagination away? Edward Snowden, April 14, 2014:
Not good satire! Good satire has its basis in reality which is what makes it both funny and critical. What you’ve done is to create a fiction that belies your miscomprehension of reality, and worse, displays your deficit of imagination.
If if “belies my miscomprehension of reality” — than it must be true, since a double negative equals a positive. Thank you for validating my satire! Here is some more satire: I expect we will soon be seeing a non-fictitious letter of resignation along these lines. I have too much respect for these fine journalists to believe that they could actually work for the corporativized mainstream click jungle that appears to be First Look’s publishing model. They must be feeling really terrible about being tricked by Omidyar Inc. The burning question, of course, is how much access to the Snowden docs did Glenn and Laura grant to Pierre and his NSA handlers? Go back to Rolling Stone and Democracy Now, dudes!
///
This Glenn Greenwald article is an excellent warning concerning the new tactics of the Zio-fascists to further remove support for equal human rights for all people(s), including the Palestinians. It makes clear that the Zio-fascists realized that the “anti-Semitism” card, and claims, were and are increasingly being seen through and recognized as false, and that they therefore thought up new tactics for demonizing the defense of the human rights of the Palestinians, and for painting the Palestinians as deserving of no human rights, through portraying the defense of same as supposedly being “anti-Israel” and/or “anti-Israeli”.
Yet, the truth of the matter is, that all those who defend the “right to human rights” of the Palestinians, are NOT anti-Israel and/or anti-Israeli as a whole, but are anti-Zio-fascism and anti-apartheidism in the Israeli government and populace, as well as in American and other society. Obviously, defense of the human rights of ALL people(s) is the logical and right way of thinking and acting; and falling for the tactics of the Zio-fascists to stifle and silence any debate and any stand against the violation of the human rights of the Palestinians, to crush dissent and free speech, and to falsely make all of same “hate-crime”, is the illogical and wrong of way of thinking and acting.
Thus, as this excellent article by Glenn Greenwald does, we must work just as strongly as the Zio-fascist lobby to counteract all of their tactics.
///
And where are the equal human rights for all among the Palestinians or the Arabs in general? Abbas has already said that his new country will allow no Jews while Israel has 20% of its population are Muslim. The constant attacks on Israel are so out of proportion. China took over Tibet which was an independent country, where is the outrage? Perhaps the people who are so upset with Israel should do some soul searching….
Hint at possible next Greenwald article?
Is there another link for this? thanks!
Is there another source or weblink for this? Thanks!
Savage..
Twitter (@samknight1 or @ggreenwald)
@ savage … addendum
The ‘docs’ Glenn’s tweet (@ggreenwald) reference have not been published … yet.
*if that is what you mean.
`bah..
Appreciating the ‘cleanup on aisle 4′..
fuk’dit ffs..
ht`mellow
@ bahhummingbug – Thanks. That is what was meant. I don’t “twit” or “tweet” so I’m lost trying to navigate that realm.
https://twitter.com/samknight1/status/461564139929108480
THANK YOU! I have been arguing for years that criticism of the policies of the State of Israel is not the same as hating Jews! If it were, than any Israeli Jew in Tel Aviv who disagrees with the current government policies is guilty of the same, including the previous government!
New article up top from Ryan Gallagher:
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/article/2014/04/30/gchq-prism-nsa-fisa-unsupervised-access-snowden/
More from Ali Abunimah:
“But the kind of two-state solution envisaged by Kerry and his boss President Obama, and by ‘liberal’ Zionists everywhere, is not designed to respect and restore Palestinian rights, but to negate them in order to pursue the overriding goal of protecting a Jewish majority and therefore Jewish political supremacy throughout most of historic Palestine. Kerry’s goal is to get Palestinians to legitimize this kind of discrimination as quickly as possible in the form of a ‘state’ that would leave the vast majority of Palestinians – refugees and Palestinian citizens of Israel – permanently shorn of their basic rights solely because they are not Jewish… Kerry, like Beinart, supports the discrimination and racism necessary to maintain Israel’s status as a ‘Jewish state.’ He just wants it to be hidden behind a ‘two-state solution’ with Palestinians blessing their own subjugation.”
http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/john-kerry-and-israeli-apartheid
I also don’t buy the idea that a 2-state solution is the best one. Let’s imagine what would happen if the Palestinian territories become an independent state. Would that guarantee that Israel is going to leave it alone and let it develop? Hardly. Just look at Lebanon.
The right solution is a 1-state solution, taking into account that no country has the right to enact discriminatory policies for its population.
Smart idea: gezt rid of a legitimate state to pleaswe those who, offered a state, refused it and went to war.
Barncat;Many successes they don’t publish?Jeez,if these monsters had any successes,it would be all over the MSM,as they are devoid of success in any endeavor since 9-11,except destruction and death.Look at all the great stories coming out of post Iraq and Afghanistan about infrastructure and education and womens lib.Nada.Look at the latest economic news;Disaster.Neolibcon destruction and wasting of America.And that Sterling clown,look at his comments about blacks in Israel.(nothing today,as the MSM closes ranks over Israeli crimes and misdemeanors.)
So, this is a book club, now?
We know you got one calling down the pipes, Glenn.
What happened to this stable of fabulous talent? NO-THING to say? Thanks for the recommendation, but i like scandals in the summer, myself. Copper barons currently.
Dang, this has been a LONG SILENT Spring under the Milgram’s strangulating string, and all I got was a book referral? That’s cool.
Glenn, can’t you show us just a teeny weeny bit of Hillary’s shopping cart contents? She online chop shopped at the NSA Store for fresh Tempora files and Free Willies while sitting on her flat screen at State. Isn’t Hillary really the secreted party line she claims Snowden has put at risk while she tramples our liberty for fees?
Why’s she getting a pass? The next president of the fee world is lying like a Intelligence Chair, and you will let her leave it lie like that? Or have you been waiting for an Open match? She finally let it fly, so aren’t we gonna challenge her score card?!
She sounds like a sold out idiot mouthing Mike Roger’s lies. What self-respecting Progressive can buy that BS pie?
I want an INQUIRY, MEOW!
Throw in Petreaus’ exploits in Tempora, 2. Let’s keep this up and Chucking fake election fairly balanced.
Fascinating stuff about how free expression is suppressed in places where one would expect tolerance and advancing wisdom. Turns out the world is FULL of iceholes, right, Glenn? I’ve been suppressed here for MONTHS!!
Woof!
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/apr/30/andy-coulson-mi5-now-william-harry
Spooks selling tabloids left over hacking scraps? Say it isn’t so, GCHQ! Who’s selling old Tempora files? Or does his secretary fill the emptied pie shells? Why is Cameron’s email in Rebekah Brooks’ BB empty of content? Passed its smellby date?
Just in, “Gaza’s Ark’ Protest Ship Sunk by Mysterious Explosion”.
Nothing mysterious about it. Obviously it was the North Koreans, possibly Iran.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/180071#.U2D5vfldUwE
@Glenn Greenwald
I found your arguments very convincing and think that having written this (all comments relating to Wilhelmina’s post) it is now easier to understand your position (at least for me) regarding ‘sufficient’ pace. I have brought to the top Wilhelmina’s last post in reply to the last thing you wrote on the matter in this thread (now getting quite long). I do not do this to refute any of the points you made but think it would be helpful if you answered this also (feel free to ignore “dog in this race” part)
Good luck, and thank you once more…
Wilhelmina wrote:
sorry difficult to read.. must learn to use
@Worzel – Try before and after each paragraph; that has worked for me.
A better alternative I’ve found when confabulating longer quotes or using more emphasis is to use a functioning editor such as at The Guardian.
Type and/or then copy/paste into any of comment section there, and then use the “preview” function to verify. Delete the comment after previewing.
FYI – for bold type doesn’t seem to work at the Guardian – I’m trying above in the first sentence for the first time to see if that works here.
Regards, SillyPutty
Well, the elf’s here took out the “<em…</em (to be used before and after each paragraph when quoting) and the <strong…</strong (instead of <b…</b) for bold…
Best just to use the Guardians editor…there are less elf's there.
@Worzel Gummidge
<blockquote>Paragraph 1
Paragraph 2
</blockquote>
=>
I want to throw out this thought in the context of the remaining Snowden documents and the value they might have in informing the public’s right to know as part of the public interest ( the main justification for publishing the documents).
Having followed the release of these documents from the beginning, We have seen several instances where the documents reveal previously unknown mass collection of American’s data that is done in what seems to be in contradiction to the US Constitution or on the basis of legal interpretations of laws which seem to actually make new law or based on laws that although not unconstitutional are odious in their original intent and purpose.
We have seen how the NSA does mass suspicionless data trawling around the world of innocent persons private information ( which under US law it is permitted to do) and we have seen how the NSA uses GCHQ as a partner or subcontractor to do some of its work in a large part because of the fiber data cables that land in the UK and traverse both the Atlantic and come from and to the Middle east and Asia and Europe.
The vast array of programs that the NSA employs is indeed mind boggling. But unless there are some earthshaking revelations yet to be divulged, the unreleased documents will mostly likely be more technical programs that accomplish the same goals that the previous documents have revealed.
My question, simply as a point of an overview of this entire process, is this:
What could be yet revealed that would be more damning than the already known activities of the NSA?
We already know that they are intent on expressly gathering and holding every bit of digital data in the world and have seen that they are on the way to having this complete capability and are operationally executing operations that come very close to that.
So what do we need to know that we don’t already to understand what the NSA is doing, both in the framework of US law and Constitutionality, and in the context of violating the privacy rights of billions of persons not resident in or citizens of the US?
We have seen that the US Congress and President and Judicial system are slow as molasses in winter and obstinate as mules in addressing these issues, or even understanding their import, so what more will it take?
As of this date there have been zero changes in US law or the practices of the NSA.
Or to put it in a more succinct way, what would make you any more outraged than you already are and what would make the US government and US population react in a way any different than it already has?
Off the top of my head these would do the trick:
Use of the NSA for political purposes.
Use of the NSA as the tool of an unelected shadow government spying on the activities of elected government officials.
Use of the NSA to spy on and subvert the activities of legal entities advocating for various causes including civil liberties
Use of the NSA to subvert the 4th amendment requirement of probable cause stated in a warrant by spying without a warrant and then using that info to create a legal warrant stating probable cause.
I am sure there are others and some of these have been touched on already in previous documents.
How much more outraged do you need to be?
Good comment. I had suggested some time back it could be a delayed reaction of shock that might compel us to desire more information… as if it would help or make it easier to battle (surveillance). Perhaps we are as guilty as the NSA for needing to have all the “DATA”
Re-read absorb perhaps?
“I found your arguments very convincing and think that having written this (all comments relating to Wilhelmina’s post) it is now easier to understand your position (at least for me) regarding ‘sufficient’ pace. I have brought to the top Wilhelmina’s last post in reply to the last thing you wrote on the matter in this thread (now getting quite long). I do not do this to refute any of the points you made but think it would be helpful if you answered this also (feel free to ignore “dog in this race” part).”
The aforereferenced conversation can be viewed in its entirety below. This exchange between Glenn Greenwald and me has the capacity to clear the air on a great many doubts that have plagued the nature of the Snowden disclosures. Glenn’s willingness to candidly respond to my concerns is laudable; in fact, it has the ongoing capacity to be his saving grace. His commitment to the goal of transparency can only be truly measured by his willingness to candidly engage his perceived critics in a respectful exchange of ideas. In posing these questions anonymously, I challenge the nurtured view that Glenn is sympathetic to the plight of the common man. Does Glenn really value the opinion of the faceless nobody, or does he give greater deference to those of noted social and/or political status whose actions embody the very principles (or lack thereof) to which he allegedly takes great exception? It is in conscious regard to this question that the tone of Glenn’s responses becomes keenly interesting.
I believe that it is extremely important to understand the exact purpose and nature of these disclosures. The will and capacity to secretly monitor the activities of ones allies and enemies is universally understood to be an integral element of statecraft. Those who subscribe to this view argue that the Snowden disclosures have intentionally undermined America’s ability to effectively safeguard its sovereign interests in a ruthless, dog-eat-dog world. Conversely, many who support the Snowden disclosures secretly harbor the overarching belief that statism is an impediment to emergence of global governing entities. Is Glenn Greenwald consciously advancing the aims of those who favor global governance? Or, is he simply empowering the common man to act as a sovereign agent on his own behalf, regardless of outcome? If there is one thing that should be clearly evident at this stage in the game is that the promise of “hope and change” is largely illusory in absence defining context.
Ergo, since he has now clearly engaged you in a respectful exchange of ideas, I take it you now accept his commitment to the goal of transparency.
Oh god, not satisfied that he actually bothered to respond directly to you, you now are going to object to his “tone?” Please say it ain’t so. For the record, from my perspective his “tone” in his responses to you was nothing if not cordial.
Because heaven knows we haven’t covered that a dozen times before.
Truly, this is the primary conundrum perplexing our pre-existing paradigms. One wonders how anyone can sleep at night in the face of such unresolved existential quandaries.
Clearly! Only an innumerate nincompoop would cavil at such an analysis!
“His commitment to the goal of transparency can only be truly measured by his willingness to ‘candidly’ engage his perceived critics in a respectful exchange of ideas.” – Wilhelmina
“Ergo, since he has now ‘clearly’ engaged you in a respectful exchange of ideas, I take it you now accept his commitment to the goal of transparency.” – Liberalrob
Poor liberalrob… I can see that you are still intellectually challenged when it comes to reading comprehension, contextual thinking, and written expression. A quick review of your commentary on the Guardian reveals that you consistently committed to that which you do best… confusing boorish brevity with insightful concision.
Oh yeah? Well, your mother wears Army boots and swims after troopships!
Hah! Take that!
Your penchant for using multisyllabic terminology in an attempt to disguise intellectually nugatory argumentation as erudite discourse is somewhat amusing in its transparency. It is very reminiscent of a former denizen of these electronic demesnes, Zed. One waxes nostalgic for those endless labyrinths of meaningless, nonsensical pseudo-philosophizing…those were simpler times.
“Oh yeah? Well, your mother wears Army boots and swims after troopships!”
Close, she worked at the pentagon during the second world war… when army boots were all the rage.
“Is Glenn Greenwald consciously advancing the aims of those who favor global governance? Or, is he simply empowering the common man to act as a sovereign agent on his own behalf, regardless of outcome?”
This first question seems paranoiac, in the same way that the NSA and GCHQ seem paranoiac in their view that fear is the most valid justification and motivator in making informed decisions about why people could, would, or should do something regarding this mass intercept of our personal information.
That being said, the question must be asked if for no other reason than to get it out of the way of reasoned discourse.
With regards to the second concern: “is he simply empowering the common man to act as a sovereign agent on his own behalf, regardless of outcome?”
All evidence seen here and elsewhereto this point says that this is the case. If you or any others have contradictory evidence, please provide it; so that we may all adjust our view of reality accordingly.
“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.”
—- Carl Sagan
Hmmm, this response has the feel of a sillyputty sockpuppet perspective? I’ll pass, thank you.
Well Marcolf, since liberalrob owned you quite handily in the above response, your subsequent response has been deemed irrelevant, anyway.
Lol, No Denial!!!! You are one of SP’s sockpuppets!!!!!! ROFL
Blanca, Sillyputty, and Jason Entwhistle…, What a deceitful coward!
No, no…Remember: you’re Blanca/Wilhelmina/Wilma/Marcolf, and I’m Sillyputty/Jason Entwhistle. No need to deny that at all. For whatever reason my previous email account associated here no longer works. Elves? Banning? Who knows.
No need to deny that at all. For whatever reason my previous email account associated here no longer works. Elves? Banning? Who knows.
A likely candidate is the too-oft seen “Duplicate comment detected; it looks as though you’ve already said that!” glitch. I’ll be happy when they get this site up to speed, as I’m sure they will too.
Regards, SP/JE
Ohhhh…that’s disregarding the ‘Blanca’ persona – which by all means evidential, it has been forever subscribed to you:
Remember: you’re Blanca/Wilhelmina/Wilma/Marcolf, and I’m Sillyputty/Jason Entwhistle.
Regards, SP/JE
I notice a difference between Jason and Silly…..
http://grammarist.com/usage/elfs-elves/
@Glenn Greenwald
I found your arguments very convincing and think having written this (all your comments related to Wilhelmina’s post) it is easier to understand (at least for me) your position regarding ‘sufficient’ pace. I do not disagree with anything you have said nor seek to refute any of your points but will bring to the top the last response from @Wilhelmina which I think also should be answered. I do think the idea that getting you to discuss payment for your journalism/’public service’ would be ‘arbitrary’ (to use that word again) as the 1-4 questions that dealt with money (in original post) were allot less worrying points for me and could be dealt with at another time if people still held those opinions.
Good luck with everything and thank you once more…
@Wilhelmina said:
I don’t remember a time when these two sides got along, I remember it getting close but never resolved, hopefully in my lifetime they will find peace. :)
Yeah, that’ll be the day. Nice thoughts, few takers.
“Obama Administration Argues in Favor of Right to Fire Public Employees Who Testify at Corruption Trials.”
Kevin Gosztola:
http://dissenter.firedoglake.com/2014/04/28/obama-administration-argues-in-favor-of-right-to-fire-public-employees-who-testify-at-corruption-trials/
More on this from Scotusblog.
http://www.scotusblog.com/2014/04/argument-preview-first-amendment-protections-for-public-employees-subpoenaed-testimony/
“Central to the resolution of Lane v. Franks is the reach of Garcetti v. Ceballos, the Court’s latest pronouncement on the First Amendment rights of public employees. Since Pickering v. Board of Education in 1968, the First Amendment has protected public employees from adverse employment actions when they are “speaking as a citizen” on a matter of public concern. In Garcetti, the closely divided Court held that, when public employees make statements “pursuant to their official duties,” such speech is not protected by the First Amendment. The employee in Garcetti was a deputy district attorney in Los Angeles who investigated a law enforcement officer’s affidavit in support of a search warrant and concluded it was false … ” — from SCOTUSBLOG’s lede.
So, it seems, someone who testifies under subpoena and under oath, if it pertains to his/her official duties, might be fired if their boss doesn’t like their testimony, seems like.
And so many of those officials became officials due to the revolving door policy between elements of the corporatocracy. Thus, the administration is in support of finding against the First Amendment in this case.
I’m reminded of Elizabeth Warren’s telling what Larry Summers said to her:
At least the court seems a bit less divided at this point regarding the Justice Departments (ir)rational position:
“Justice Sonia Sotomayor asked, “What are you doing about the truth finding functions of a trial setting when you’re saying or telling people, employee, don’t go and tell the truth because if the truth hurts your employer you’re going to be fired?” And, “What kind of message are we giving when we’re telling employees, [who are] subpoenaed [for] any reason in a trial, go and tell a falsehood otherwise you can be fired?”
Roberts really had a tough time grappling with this position the Obama administration endorsed:
“I still don’t understand or didn’t understand what it is you’re saying. If he testifies, and you don’t want to keep the corruption secret. You know, you don’t want to reveal it and he testifies truthfully and reveals it. Can he be disciplined for this?” Roberts asked Mark Waggoner, an attorney representing Steve Franks, the college president.
It all seems quite transparently to be just another way to protect state secrets.
“If you want to keep a secret, you must also hide it from yourself.”
– George Orwell, 1984
“The Official Secrets Act isn’t to protect secrets; it’s to protect officials.” — “Yes, Minister”
@ coram nobis
Great show. Unfortunately real politicians and bureaucrats are much more callous and less humorous then that classic TV show.
And so many of those officials became officials due to the revolving door policy between elements of the corporatocracy. Thus, the administration is in support of finding against the First Amendment in this case.
I’m reminded of Elizabeth Warren’s telling of what Larry Summers said to her:
President Obama is insane and this is another example—along with his ‘Insider Threat Program’—of his convoluted insanity, especially regarding federal employees. I have many years of experience in federal law enforcement and I cannot imagine being caught up in such a legal Catch-22 as this:
{Quote:
“We think that, for example, a police officer whose job it is to investigate and testify about what he saw to support a warrant or something,” Gershengorn argued. “It would still be part of his job responsibilities. The fact of the subpoena doesn’t change that a technician or officer or an investigator may be called to testify as part of his duties.”
“So you could fire him because he testified?” Chief Justice John Roberts asked.
Gershengorn replied, “Your Honor, there is a range of disciplinary activities that would be available to employees.”
Unquote}
Mind boggling the extent that controlling the “taxpaying public’s” message on the “taxpaying public’s” behalf has come to.
““When truth is replaced by silence,the silence is a lie.”
– Yevgeny Yevtushenko
Attempting to mentally reconcile President Obama’s bizarre actions prompts me to consider that I am suffering from severe presbyopia and advanced dementia, because what I am reading simply cannot be reality based and in focus; however, that neither bodes well for—nor is it complimentary of–others with whom I agree…
‘Reality? We don’t need no stinking reality!’
Quote:
The aide said that guys like me were ”in what we call the reality-based community,” which he defined as people who ”believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.” I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. ”That’s not the way the world really works anymore,” he continued. ”We’re an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you’re studying that reality — judiciously, as you will — we’ll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that’s how things will sort out. We’re history’s actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/17/magazine/17BUSH.html
@ suave_
You did a good job of noticing my ‘reality’ comment and then linking that to a very pertinent article. History will most likely judge Mr. Bush harshly and he will join the ranks of one of the most reviled world leaders ever. (Incidentally, I am a 3.5 decade registered Republican).
I likely will not live to see the day—and that time may never occur anyway—however, one of my most anticipated days of reckoning for both men would be viewing Mr. Bush and Mr. Obama (for whom I once voted) brought to justice for their crimes against the U.S. Constitution and their heinous crimes of ‘war’.
The linked article does “get[s] to the very heart of the Bush presidency.” Thank you.
Thanks, Cindy for the link. Good reading in the comments by Coram, Sillyputty and Nemo.
It seems there is always some new depth that TPTB are sinking to. It is indeed a terrible legal Catch-22 that gov’t workers are/can be subjected to.
‘John Kerry Tells The Truth … Therefore He Must Apologize’
Mr. Sullivan has a very good article regarding this topic, including a bit of condensed history.
{Quote:
“My view is that we should therefore end any and all government aid to the Jewish state, and stop using our UN veto to protect it from appropriate international censure.”
Unquote}
http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2014/04/29/john-kerry-tells-the-truth-therefore-he-must-apologize/
“John Kerry Tells The Truth … Therefore He Must Apologize”–Andrew Sullivan
That was literally the first thought I had reading the GT article.
He also told a partial truth in regard to who precipitated the Ukraine crisis.
We’ll have to wait a long time for admission of the US, er CIA, involvement.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/04/29/kerry-u-s-taped-moscow-s-calls-to-its-ukraine-spies.html
“Very good”? Come one, the guy is saying “For my part, I still believe in the dream of a free and Jewish state in the ancestral homeland, democratic and prosperous, and have nothing but profound admiration for its achievements and tenacity and acts of benevolence and entrepreneurship around the world.”
He is just worried that the Zionists could lose their Apartheid state if they don’t play it well.
This is not the kind of people you want to work with.
Black Agenda Report has an article on anti-Black racism in Israel, which is horrendous.
Excerpt: “I’ve covered terror attacks, funerals, car accidents, and protests. I’ve seen fury, frustration, despair, and sadness in a variety of places and forms. But I’ve never seen such hatred as it was displayed on Wednesday night in the Hatikva neighborhood. If it weren’t for the police presence, it would have ended in lynching. I have no doubt.”
In this many have accused prominent Israeli officials for legitimizing and inciting this racist rage against African asylum seekers. The most vocal of these have been the Interior Minister, Eli Yishai, who consistently argue that the country must solve the “problem of the infiltrators.” He has, like many protesters, accused African asylum seekers of spreading disease and raping Israeli women. . . .
http://blackagendareport.com/content/black-migrants-white-israel
You know Glenn, if the The Intercept is going to put a stream of the debate, or a later YouTube link to it, on these pages, somebody may have to spring for servers, or a staff member to code it. Are you sure the will is there?
When apartheid exist as it does in the West Bank, E Jerusalem and within Israel no one wins. No one.
This morning on MSNBC’s Morning Joe show the topic was brought up. Joe had his nose up the I lobbies ass so far you could not make out his face. He jumped all over Kerry’s statement about “apartheid” Mika not at all. In fact her facial expressions told it all (you can better believe she hears the flat out facts from her father Zbigniew). Although of course she held her tongue but her face said “Kerry was right on” There was a discourse between Haldemann and Scarborough with Haldemann playing it safe but going much more of a distance than anyone else by saying “it was not unreasonable” for Kerry to say that this is the direction that Israel is headed. Mike Barnacle silent.
link to msnbc.com
Watched MSNBC from 5-9 last evening. Not a peep out of Rachel Maddow, Chris Matthews, Ari Melber in for Lawrence, Chris Hayes. Not a peep.
These people are keeping the wall of silence in place for Israel. Can you imagine the outrage if they were willing to protect human rights abuses in this country in place?
The ‘bipartisan’ establishment that comprises the largest media outlets and corrupted US government (which appears inappropriately dominated by corporatism, militarism and – bewilderingly – Zionism) is taboo for populist outrage, as far as the State and the MSM is concerned. Unless protest appears to be leftist or rightist outrage (which target the opposite wing and thus keep the culture war aflame), all actual outrage against the status quo, the established order of the elite, is silenced, controlled or co-opted by the establishment.
More to your point, the chilling effects of Zionism on American culture is quite horrifying. Personally I had underestimated it greatly.
In the April 3 debate at American University with Barton Gellman, Michael Hayden gave the following defense of bulk collection. It’s a powerful argument that will almost certainly be reused in Friday’s debate in Toronto.
“I became director of NSA in 1999. We were being overwhelmed by the volume of modern communications, because we were approaching communications the way we had approached all of our previous life going after communications, which was burrow down, find the discreet com[munications] path, get the right frequency, and listen to the very specifically targeted call. And now there we were with this tsunami of global data flying at us in a way that was beyond our ability to control. […] We decided in ’99, 2000 – pre-9/11 – that the only way we could deal with volume was to quit acting like we were on the beach pushing the tsunami wave back [] and we decided turn around and swim with the wave, dummy, and make the power of the wave your tool. That’s bulk collection, and that’s metadata. And that’s why we did it. It was in response to a very specific challenge [that] if we had not in some way dealt with we would have gone deaf.
“Technology change #2: NSA spent most of its life watching the Soviet Union. And there isn’t anyone in this room, regardless of your political persuasion, is going to raise that much of a finger in civil liberties concerns with NSA intercepting Soviet strategic rocket forces communications coming out of Moscow going over microwave hops over the Ural Mountains out to ICBM fields in Soviet Siberia while we’re looking for interesting words to pop up on the net, like “launch”. The 21st century equivalent of that isolated signal on a dedicated network being run by an oligarchic superpower – the 21st century equivalent of that signal – are proliferator, terrorist, money-launderer, child-trafficker, narco-trafficker, etc., emails coexisting with your emails in a single, unified, global communications structure. There is no way NSA continues to do what it used to do for you if it can’t go out there and be in the flow where your communications and mine are co-mingled with legitimately targeted communications – that’s just the reality.”
http://www.c-span.org/video/?318674-1/debate-nsa-privacy-laws (43:49)
Needless to say, none of that addresses the legality or constitutionality of bulk collection (or “non-targeted surveillance”) as it is being practiced. However, as always in public debates about law, the question is not only the current status of law, but what the law should be. The audience will (rightfully) be interested in the latter question at least as much as the former. So, imo, the prioritize privacy side should be ready with a response to this argument of Hayden’s.
So because there’s an enormous volume of communications, you can no longer do targeted surveillance. Does anyone buy that?
If Hayden is correct, then every government in the world should collect everything, inside and outside borders.
Technically, it makes sense that the author of a message cannot be known unless it is stored and analyzed. Consider an anonymous email message, for example. Or a comment posted by an anonymous user that is actually a coded message. There are all kinds of possibilities. It’s a technical question. And Hayden isn’t ruling out targeted surveillance, he’s just saying that it’s inadequate on its own. (As he explains it, the targeted surveillance comes later in the process.) So, yes, absent a good rebuttal, many people are going to buy Hayden’s argument. Gellman didn’t have one.
Then, if many people are in favor of bulk collection as a means to an end within this modern, complex world, the only route is an amendment to the U.S. Constitution—not another law written and/or interpreted by lawbreakers/secret courts and not via a continuation of the current Bill of Rights violations.
To barncat…
And yet…those steps happened pre -9/11, and many at NSA have noted that the sheer bulk of information is exactly why they missed 9/11 (they shouldn’t have; several FBI agents and John O’Neill, the head of security at Twin Towers, who died that day, all warned about an imminent attack and they weren’t privy to the chatter; they were using old-fashioned detective work). Nor did that bulk data collecting prevent: The Boston Marathon Bombing, Fort Hood (twice), or any of a myriad of other violent acts large and small. None. With a record like that, how do you define “winning” or “valuable information” or “justified” ?
So you’ll acknowledge the Bill of Rights isn’t being enforced. Your answer is to just tack on more ignored stuff, thinking that’s the easy route.
You enforce a Bill of Rights by demanding and using them.
@Morning’s Minion
That could be part of a good counter-argument. I suppose the rejoinder would be that there have been many successes, most (or all) of which cannot be divulged. It’s difficult to argue with an opponent who is allowed to credibly refer to secret relevant information. In the end, it may be necessary to say that such an extreme degree of secrecy is incompatible with democratic government, and is therefore unacceptable whatever the benefit in security may be. That’s essentially the decision that Snowden made.
(And, fwiw, at 1:49:30 in the Q&A, Hayden argues that with the authorization given by section 215 of the Patriot Act, 9/11 could have been prevented using current techniques.)
On a technical note, however, I cannot believe that too much data is a problem. If it is, the problem must be procedural and not with the volume of data itself. Targeted surveillance – and all other traditional methods of espionage – can be performed in parallel with the bulk collection. The bulk data that is being sucked up and stored doesn’t have to be analyzed immediately, or ever. Data that is known to be of interest at the time of collection can be flagged, and analysts can look only at that if they choose to. In this case, nothing is lost if all the rest of the data in the world is also collected and set aside for possible future use. Furthermore, any purely technical problems that exist today can eventually be overcome. Appearing on Democracy Now!, William Binney said this:
That’s exactly how I would expect any technical person to look at this issue: the more data the better. In time, we can accomplish whatever you want. I think that if Greenwald tries the “too much data” argument, Hayden is going to have a strong response. We’ll see …
I disagree. Claims of secret evidence should be treated the same as claims with no evidence. They are indistinguishable logically, and for obvious reasons should be given no weight in a debate. The Iraq war shouldn’t have been necessary to make this obvious, but it’s now a good illustration of the folly of believing in alleged secret evidence.
In any other context I would agree with you, but you can’t make this argument in the context of espionage without denying the legitimate need for some degree of secrecy. The need for that same degree of trust is implied. (Congressional oversight, at its best, transfers and/or extends the trust to the overseers.) The most effective argument may be to challenge the need for the espionage. How do all these threats arise? Once the public is convinced of a world of evil, implacable enemies committed to our destruction (some in our midst), it becomes difficult to make the argument against any means to thwart them.
@Nemo.
“Then, if many people are in favor of bulk collection as a means to an end within this modern, complex world, the only route is an amendment to the U.S. Constitution.”
Dear Nemo, the whole theory behind the Constitution is not just separation of powers of government, but separation from the impulse to amend the Constitution on the impulses of the day. Didn’t we learn anything from the 18th Amendment? “Many people” might win one off-year election, maybe two, but the beauty of constitutional republican government is that it won’t be law this coming November.
No one denies the legitimate need for secrecy. (Well, almost no one.) But the need for secrecy cannot be allowed to be used as a shield for unlawful activity; and that’s how it’s being used, allegedly at the very least. Snowden’s revelations blew the lid off that secrecy; now the task is to determine if the activities revealed were in fact unlawful, and that’s a job for lawyers, lawmakers, and judges.
And random commenters on the Internet, naturally. :)
The problem we face is that that trust in the overseers was destroyed, because the overseers were not permitted to exercise their oversight and in fact were provided with false and/or misleading information when they did finally try to exercise it.
It is always difficult to argue in the face of irrationality. Hopefully the irrational fears can be dispelled by rational argument…but that requires a willingness to accept that those fears might be irrational.
I don’t see how anonymous communications justify blanket surveillance. Anonymous communication has always existed.
I agree with Jose. And this Frontline: “Spying on the Home Front,” which predates Snowden’s revelations by seven years, is downright eerie it’s so prescient.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/homefront/view/
Quotes from the show:
As I said, given that this was made in 2007, it’s a bit strange how shocked so many were by the Snowden revelations.
Barncat, the problem with a “little bit” of secrecy is that it can’t be measured, confirmed, or reviewed. Someone’s “little” is another person’s life, so no I don’t think it should be sanctified as justified. I ascribe to the grandmother rule: If you don’t want anyone to know what you’re doing and need to hide the evidence of what you did; it shouldn’t have been done. That’s not naive or sentimental; it comes from a lifetime of reading about the endless shit storms that transpire when various despots set themselves up as the Secret Keepers. We’re always asked to “Trust us! We’re the good guys!” Until they aren’t.
These lazy fracks decided to make the entire globe their adversarial target to create an expensive net in which to capture the ignorant fishes who buy the con it is a free and nutritious lunch box. We’re farmed fish, folks!
NSA and the Net are one and the same, and don’t tell me we’re surprised. Every opportunity the net stringers have enjoyed has been to NSA’s silent partners’ advantage. All of a sudden the net spinners are ACTING as if privacy was their original intention.
Hayden is a lame spooksman for a bunch of global hoodies who’ve decided if they make all of us the enemy, then they can profit wildly from spying on us. They’ve monetized spinning our hot used hay into gold. Now…you KNOW that’s a BS story. How much linger can it hold water?
@barncat
Hayden is lying right out of the gate. In fact, this spiel of his is not really an argument, but a series of lies masquerading as background color.
“I became director of NSA in 1999. We were being overwhelmed by the volume of modern communications, because we were approaching communications the way we had approached all of our previous life going after communications, which was burrow down, find the discreet communications path, get the right frequency, and listen to the very specifically targeted call.”
The idea that this is the first time the government or even the NSA has bulk collected communications is laughable. Let’s all pretend the Church committee never happened.
——
From Bill Moyers Journal…
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/10262007/profile2.html
One important program brought to light by the Committee was Project Shamrock — domestic surveilliance that was subsequently prohibited by FISA. Shamrock was a NSA surveillance program stretching from 1947 to the mid-70’s that involved the copying of telegrams sent by American citizens to international organizations. L. Britt Snider, former CIA Inspector General and council on the Church Committee, describes the project he was tasked to investigate:
“Every day, a courier went up to New York on the train and returned to Fort Meade with large reels of magnetic tape, which were copies of the international telegrams sent from New York the preceding day using the facilities of three telegraph companies. The tapes would then be electronically processed for items of foreign intelligence interest, typically telegrams sent by foreign establishments in the United States or telegrams that appeared to be encrypted.”
——-
Any of that sound familiar?
“And now there we were with this tsunami of global data flying at us in a way that was beyond our ability to control.”
I love how the NSA isn’t actively seeking and eavesdropping on communications, instead, things are just flying at the NSA like balls on a dance floor.
“[…] We decided in ’99, 2000 – pre-9/11 – that the only way we could deal with volume was to quit acting like we were on the beach pushing the tsunami wave back [] and we decided turn around and swim with the wave, dummy, and make the power of the wave your tool.”
Same lie from the opening is repeated. They were never on the beach pushing the tsunami wave back. They were busted by the Church Committee, laws were passed, the constitution was clear, the NSA continued to ignore them both, now we are caught up to today.
“That’s bulk collection, and that’s metadata. And that’s why we did it. It was in response to a very specific challenge [that] if we had not in some way dealt with we would have gone deaf.”
Yes the invention of the Telegram caused the NSA to go bulk collection.
“Technology change #2: NSA spent most of its life watching the Soviet Union.”
And the American people.
“And there isn’t anyone in this room, regardless of your political persuasion, is going to raise that much of a finger in civil liberties concerns with NSA intercepting Soviet strategic rocket forces communications coming out of Moscow going over microwave hops over the Ural Mountains out to ICBM fields in Soviet Siberia while we’re looking for interesting words to pop up on the net, like “launch”.”
Few people could make the NSA’s best case for spying sound so dickish.
“The 21st century equivalent of that isolated signal on a dedicated network being run by an oligarchic superpower – the 21st century equivalent of that signal – are proliferator, terrorist, money-launderer, child-trafficker, narco-trafficker, etc.,…”
Drug dealers are like the ICBM fields in Soviet Siberia and the word “launch”? Hayden not only wants to collect everything, but he wants to become (or maybe already is) a law enforcement agency. This isn’t an argument, this is a confession.
“…emails coexisting with your emails in a single, unified, global communications structure. There is no way NSA continues to do what it used to do for you if it can’t go out there and be in the flow where your communications and mine are co-mingled with legitimately targeted communications – that’s just the reality.”
Just like telegrams in the 1950s. That’s just the reality.
We already slapped down this behavior once, and it didn’t take very long before they are back at it again, and pretending that this is the first time.
@thelastnamechosen
I’m not ready to agree that the “tsunami wave” was as an untruth. You don’t agree that with the advent of the Internet – which, by my memory, occurred in the mid 90’s – the quantity of communications exploded? You really want to assert an equivalence with telegrams? What you’ve shown is that the will to bulk collect, and to disregard the law, was always there – let’s agree on that. However, that doesn’t refute the practical need for a technical response to the Internet. I quoted William Binney above, so recall that “1999-2000″ was around the same time he was working on Thin Thread – this corroborates Hayden’s story. (Of course, Thin Thread got ditched in favor of Trailblazer, etc., but that’s irrelevant here.) And, as I made clear in the first comment, Hayden’s argument doesn’t address legality or constitutionality, but (as I said) “as always in public debates about law, the question is not only the current status of law, but what the law should be”. I was calling for a rebuttal to Hayden because I believed that his argument can persuade people that the NSA’s actions were justified, even if illegal or unconstitutional. I still believe that the argument can be persuasive if not answered. (And if you agree with only that, it’s enough to justify my initial comment.)
I noticed that also, but it’s really beside the point about the bulk collection. Even if only “terrorists” were being sought, Hayden’s argument doesn’t change.
Ok, so you’d have to do more to convince me of that equivalency. My opinion isn’t important, of course, but I don’t think it will work in the debate. It may be useful in the context of law, but I don’t think it’s an adequate reply to Hayden’s point about technical necessity.
@barncat
“I’m not ready to agree that the “tsunami wave” was as an untruth.”
It’s not the wave, it’s this part that is a lie…
“…because we were approaching communications the way we had approached all of our previous life going after communications, which was burrow down, find the discreet communications path, get the right frequency, and listen to the very specifically targeted call.”
“You really want to assert an equivalence with telegrams?”
Every new technology is a tsunami wave. From printing press to telegram to internet to the next technological advancement in communications.
It will always be this way, and Hayden’s arguments will always be the same in the future and in the past. At root in this argument is the idea that more communication means less constitutional protection. Why is this idea supposed to be the baseline of belief?
“However, that doesn’t refute the practical need for a technical response to the Internet.”
You have the cart before the horse. Bulk surveillance is not a response to more effective communication.
The same technology that allows people to communicate more effectively is the same technology the the government uses to spy on us. Bulk surveillance is the logical conclusion of power using technology to its advantage. The fact that people could communicate more effectively using that same technology is an unfortunate side effect.
It would be more accurate to say that increased communication by the citizenry was in response to bulk surveillance by the government. Not the other way around.
Do you really believe that if everyone stopped communicating with each other that the government would stop spying on us? That the NSA wouldn’t want to collect every detail of our solitary existence? Does China’s great firewall used to prevent people from communicating with each other mean that China needs to spy less?
“…I don’t think it’s an adequate reply to Hayden’s point about technical necessity.”
Hayden’s point is that power will use every tool at its disposal, the law and constitution be damned. That’s not an argument about technology that is an argument about power.
I think one point is important enough to repeat at least once.
The government doesn’t spy on everyone because we have computers, the government spies on everyone because they have computers.
If computers were forbidden to ordinary citizens, we would still have mass surveillance, cameras, microphones, phone coverage, huge databases and facial, voice, print and license plate recognition. Blaming the internet for wearing a tube top when we were going to get it no matter what is not really an argument.
@thelastnamechosen
Right, I granted that that could be called a lie. I wrote, “What you’ve shown is that the will to bulk collect, and to disregard the law, was always there – let’s agree on that.”
It’s not! I’ve been trying to make it clear that, in the argument I quoted, Hayden is ignoring the legal issue. He gets to it later with the bit about the triangle. One possible reply to Hayden would be to grant his argument, but reject the bulk surveillance just on the basis of law. Maybe that’s Greenwald’s most likely rebuttal. He could say, no matter what the perceived threat, the government cannot be permitted to create a vast, secret surveillance infrastructure in violation of the law. His opponents will argue that no laws have been violated, of course, but now they’re playing on Greenwald’s (and Dershowitz’s) turf. In any case, I think the two issues are separate: technical necessity and legality.
I’m losing you with that last sentence. I agree that there’s nothing new with government wanting to be able to perform surveillance within whatever new communication medium arises – do you want to argue that they should have no right to do so, even with a warrant and reasonable suspicion? I don’t know what you’re saying here. It seems like you might be saying that the Internet was developed with the primary intention of conducting mass surveillance. If so, that seems a bit strange at first sight.
I’m sorry, I just don’t understand that.
Once again, I disagree that that’s the point he’s making in that argument. I gather that you’re saying it’s implicit in the argument, so I guess we just disagree. We may be at an impasse. If so, I still think the exchange has been interesting and worthwhile.
@barncat
“In any case, I think the two issues are separate: technical necessity and legality.”
I still don’t get the technical necessity argument. Is the argument that it is necessary to use all available technology?
“I’m losing you with that last sentence. I agree that there’s nothing new with government wanting to be able to perform surveillance within whatever new communication medium arises – do you want to argue that they should have no right to do so, even with a warrant and reasonable suspicion? I don’t know what you’re saying here. It seems like you might be saying that the Internet was developed with the primary intention of conducting mass surveillance. If so, that seems a bit strange at first sight.”
No, none of things.
I’m trying to address the argument that the internet tsunami made them do it. I think the point I was trying to get at in the last part of my post is much clearer in my follow up.
The government doesn’t spy on everyone because we have computers, the government spies on everyone because they have computers.
“I’m sorry, I just don’t understand that.”
I was again addressing the idea that the internet made them do it, combined with a joke about Glenn’s comment section. :)
I will repeat again :) what I think is a good point. It is not the internet and the citizens use of technology that drove NSA bulk surveillance, it was the technology available to the NSA. If computers were outlawed for citizens we would still have bulk surveillance.
As always, interesting, worthwhile and fun.
@thelastnamechosen
No, Hayden’s argument is that it was technically necessary to use bulk surveillance (and collect metadata) to avoid “going deaf”: “And that’s why we did it. It was in response to a very specific challenge [that] if we had not in some way dealt with we would have gone deaf.” You’re saying that’s a lie because they’ve always performed bulk collection, so they just continued to do so when the Internet came around. But I’m saying that doesn’t refute Hayden’s argument. It’s worth pointing out, for sure, but it doesn’t do the job. To say that they would have done it anyway does not imply that it’s unnecessary.
As for “the internet tsunami made them do it”, my reply is the same. Even if they’ve always done it, it doesn’t prove that in the case of the Internet (or any other case), it’s technically unnecessary.
Same reply.
So, I guess we’ll leave it there? You can have the last word if you want. Thanks for kicking this around with me. I’m grateful to everyone else who replied also. I just wanted to suggest to Greenwald that Hayden’s argument was worth thinking about. All the rest has been interesting and fun. Thanks!
My answer to that is, Hayden doesn’t get to make that judgement. As director of the NSA, if something becomes technically infeasible (granting his explanation arguendo) his role is to advise the SecDef and/or the President and lay out alternatives, not unilaterally hare off on his own making policy decisions. Those are above his pay grade. Or they should be.
If he started the bulk collection program(s) with the appropriate authorizations from above, then those people are at fault. But that’s not what he seems to be saying.
@barncat
A burst of questions that do not need answers.
You haven’t articulated what you think Hayden means by “going deaf”, and he doesn’t explain it in the excerpt you posted.
Does Hayden mean that if we only collect 60% of all communications we are 40% deaf?
Does he mean that the internet makes it somewhat harder to disentangle US person communication from foreign communication, and it didn’t used to be this hard, so now we should be able to collect everything like communications that are obviously US to US?
Does he mean that the technology to collect everything is available to other countries, and if we collect less than what other countries are collecting, then we will be comparatively deaf?
“To say that they would have done it anyway does not imply that it’s unnecessary.”
Necessary for what? Necessary like torture is necessary? Necessary because Hayden says so? What is your goal and what are your metrics? Without a goal and metrics, the word necessary is just a command.
@thelastnamechosen
He does explain it in that excerpt: “There is no way NSA continues to do what it used to do for you if it can’t go out there and be in the flow where your communications and mine are co-mingled with legitimately targeted communications – that’s just the reality.” He’s saying that the NSA can’t continue to do its job effectively without the bulk collection – the bulk collection is necessary for the fulfillment of its mission. He’s relying a lot on the point about an “isolated signal on a dedicated network”. That’s in contrast to the “flow where your communications and mine are co-mingled”. I have a few more (tentative) thoughts, but I’ll stop there and see what you do with that. (And, once again, with this understanding of “necessary”, your argument that they’ve always bulk collected does not succeed.)
@barncat
“There is no way NSA continues to do what it used to do for you if it can’t go out there and be in the flow where your communications and mine are co-mingled with legitimately targeted communications – that’s just the reality.” – Hayden
That explains nothing. It is word salad from a man unencumbered by truth or morality. “…what [the NSA] used to do for you” is bulk surveillance and violate the constitution.
This argument has become so circular.
Bulk collection is necessary.
Why is it necessary?
To fulfill the mission.
What is the mission?
To do our job effectively.
What is your job?
To do what is necessary.
“He’s relying a lot on the point about an “isolated signal on a dedicated network”. That’s in contrast to the “flow where your communications and mine are co-mingled”.”
What the hell does this actually mean? Explain this to me with more techno and less babble. I gave you three plausible ways to define the concept of going deaf, you might not like those definitions but I gave it a sincere go. Tell me in english what you think Hayden means. The closest I can come is this–
Does he mean that the internet makes it somewhat harder to disentangle US person communication from foreign communication, and it didn’t used to be this hard, so now we should be able to collect everything like communications that are obviously US to US?
–and it is weak sauce that has been spouted forever in one form or another. It’s the CALEA doctrine. All communication should be as easy to tap as it used to be, and if it’s not, we have rights to that communication by law or scofflaw.
@thelastnamechosen – I replied to the wrong comment. See below.
Actually, it’s not. The NSA is not a law enforcement agency. I don’t think anyone disputes the utility of bulk collection as applied to the NSA’s mission of national defense (which includes antiterrorism). What I do dispute is their making this bulk collection available for any other purpose. That is not their mission, and there are QED some very thorny issues raised by trying to expand it to cover other activities.
@thelastnamechosen
I find it easy to imagine that surveillance becomes much more difficult with the unlimited number of channels provided by the internet. To me, it seems like a qualitative leap from a telephone-only system. It also seems that with the Internet, there are an unlimited number of ways to encode a message. A message can be encoded is some form of visual media, for example. A message can be split up into any number of parts. (When I start to think about how easy it is to encrypt digital messages – without using encryption – it seems they must be relying almost entirely on metadata.) Bottom line is that because the Internet makes communication easier and more flexible, I think it must necessarily make surveillance more difficult, in the sense of locating a target and interpreting its messages. At a minimum, that seems plausible, which is all that’s required to make Hayden’s argument effective for a general audience, which is my primary concern here.
I hope that’s enough for a start? You seem to think that Hayden’s argument is prima facie bullshit. I think the onus is on you to show that. For my original point, it’s enough that his argument is plausible. I am very willing to be convinced by you that it is not.
“I find it easy to imagine that surveillance becomes much more difficult with the unlimited number of channels provided by the internet. To me, it seems like a qualitative leap from a telephone-only system.”
Back in my day, we had the internet over the telephone. There never was and never will be a “telephone-only system.” There was only the time before and the time after computers and modems. (This is an important point for multiple reasons.)
“Bottom line is that because the Internet makes communication easier and more flexible, I think it must necessarily make surveillance more difficult, in the sense of locating a target and interpreting its messages.”
I think the assertion about the internet making surveillance more difficult is more than unproven, I think the opposite is much more likely to be true. Had you said computers and encryption make surveillance more difficult, I would be inclined to agree with you.
But so what? Literacy, education, democracy, journalism, whistle blowing, the law and constitution all make surveillance more difficult. Rationality and the age of reason are not excuses for the NSA and the government to really bring the boot down. The ratification of the constitution is not justification to increase spying.
Just because humanity is slowly bending the arc does not mean that every time we make another lurching leap toward freedom that we have spot the government and the NSA fifty points and a politician to be named later.
“At a minimum, that seems plausible, which is all that’s required to make Hayden’s argument effective for a general audience, which is my primary concern here.”
I have a little more faith in the general public’s ability to resist the charms of Hayden’s bald assertions. In the same way I expect them not to dismiss his arguments because he looks like a turtle.
“I hope that’s enough for a start? You seem to think that Hayden’s argument is prima facie bullshit. I think the onus is on you to show that. For my original point, it’s enough that his argument is plausible. I am very willing to be convinced by you that it is not.”
Hayden is not arguing anything. He is chaining nonsense together for the purposes of propaganda. What little he says that can be translated into english is pure assertion. Maybe he is on record somewhere making a rational argument for the administration’s position, but what you posted isn’t it. There is a large difference between arguments and demands.
The administration is still lying about the NSA and Snowden’s revelations.
There are no arguments when they are still lying.
I will say it again–There are no arguments until they stop lying.
Common sense doesn’t get more common. That is something that all of us in the general public have no problem understanding.
@thelastnamechosen
(I do that in case you want to use the browser’s search feature to detect a reply, if you’re using a browser that displays the number of hits.)
I don’t get that at all. In this context, I’m thinking that the defining characteristic of a telephone system is “voice only”, which is just one of many ways to encode a message using the web. I hit that point in my previous reply.
That’s funny, because I see it exactly the opposite way: it’s the computers and mass storage devices that make surveillance easier, encryption aside. To me, it seems obvious that being able to store communications and analyze them (over time) with “a zillion algorithms” (ha) is a big advantage. Encryption not aside, yes, I cited it in my previous message as making surveillance more difficult, and therefore contributing to the “technical necessity” of a response to the Internet. You’re saying that encryption is enabled by computers and not the Internet. I gave just a couple of examples how messages can be “encrypted” (disguised) without using encryption (and thereby automatically arousing suspicion). Definitely not sure about this one …
Of course, I agree 100%. But, as I’ve said repeatedly, Hayden was not addressing legality there, and the issue is separate from the question of technical necessity or technical advantage.
On that one, I agree 0%. If your faith were justified, we probably wouldn’t need a debate tonight. In any case, I definitely think it would be better if Greenwald had an answer for that “argument” (the quotes are for you) of Hayden’s – even if it was just to say what you are. I don’t see how that could do anything but help. (Gellman let it go unchallenged.)
On this one, I agree 1000%. But I guess we’ll just put those same quotes around “argument” and tune in tonight for the entertainment. Greenwald is very smart and maybe capable of surprising us.
I may not be able to comment after 12:30 today. But I’ll definitely check back in case you choose to reply to this.
Abunimah must have a different definition of “winning” than I do.
Trulaine,is that you?I thought Mr.Campbell passed away.BTB,amazing that he was married to Judith Exner(JFK) at one time.Very strange linkage.
I have never been to Israel or Palestine. And I have never studied in the U.S. And I can not imagine that theory really makes a difference. And I know that there is a lot of peace work done. And now we have a winner? I doubt.
I read no further than this…”American public support for Israel remains strong,”
I have no more use for Palestine activist who feel obliged to pepper their positions with sops to Israel than I have for the Israeli propagandist who do the same.
The fact is the mass of the US public doesnt care about or think about Israel.
The average US citizen thinks about Jews about as often as they see some movie on WWII and the Nazis.
The only reliable poll–not paid for by some interest group whose agenda is to “tell Americans ‘what they think”—–is the Univ.of Maryland World Opinion Poll financed by the Kennedy Center. In that poll time after time when asked about the Israel-Palestine issue 71% of Americans have said the US should be ‘even handed’ and favor neither side.
There are two things about Israel that should concern Americans—and do concern the Americans that are well informed on the facts.
One is the violations by Israel of international law and their on going theft, agression , human rights violations in Palestine and of Palestines—-And the fact the US taxpayer’s money is used by congress to finance and enable this–thereby making the US complict in their crimes.
The second concern for Americans is that the Jewish Israeli or Zionist Israeli if you like, lobbies are a litteral ‘fifth column’ in the US states who have infiltrated and control US policy on Israel and the ME by literally ‘buying ‘politicians or intimidating them if they do not actively promote aid and benefits and special treatment of Israel and swear their loyalty to the interest of this foreign country–even at the expense of US interest..
This is what Israel is about:
Either you are against oppressing other people, stealing their land and denying their rights to even move about freely in their land or even make a living or even have access to the own water wells —or you’re not against it.
Either you are against any ethnic, minority or foreign group using the US for the purpose of employing its power and resouces for their own ethnic, religious or economic domination against others and at the expense of US reputation and principles —–or you’re not against it.
If you are not against these things and you cannot find the honesty or balls to stand up and call a spade a spade then you are not deserving of living in a democracy and you are heping to destroy it.
“the Jewish Israeli or Zionist Israeli if you like, lobbies are a litteral ‘fifth column’ in the US states who have infiltrated and control US policy on Israel and the ME”
I suppose one might call them that. One might also call them American citizens who lawfully petition their government to enact policies they believe in.
A lot of them are also office-holding dual citizens.
Good comment,but only partially correct:More and more Americans of single citizenship(The only real kind)are awakening to the threat of fifth column Zionists using America as their Israeli expansion facilitator,all the while destroying American democracy with their ill gotten fortunes extracted from the American people by theft,subterfuge and owning political whores.Gator;In a true democracy,money and power should not override the voice of the people,but here in America it’s done incessantly,as where is the voice of common America allowed by the MSM control,other than comments (and which are overwhelmingly anti current US policy)to the editors,as almost every article and opinion are overwhelmingly by belligerent Zionists?And how come the defense of Israel,almost always is exclusively by Jews like yourself?It’s good to own the pulpit eh?
This just up at TG:
We’re never ever going to break through the stalemate on this one, are we? If only some person with authority could meet with both teams and explain that every time we see a scenario play out like this it reinforces the conviction that the US is bought lock, stock, and barrel by Israeli special interests.
The truth…can anyone even imagine a situation where a top cabinet member would be forced to make a public apology for a passing comment made about Belgium or Uruguay, especially if the point made had legitimacy?
It’s not just that it feels hopeless, though it does, it’s that the inability to allow any daylight into the debate, and that comments get shut down so fast, that we end up, not just where we were, but in an even more entrenched place.
It’s …well, words fail me. This is not going to end well. It started poorly, has unfolded disastrously, and seems headed toward the Armageddon the Rapture crowd is rooting for.
Wait for the other shoe to drop. Who said what to Kerry to make him not only turn 180 but publicly do penance? It must have been really nasty stuff, esp. for someone this high-vis and powerful to suddenly turn into a tower of Jell-O. Maybe we’ll see the rest of the story in someone’s memoirs around 2034 or so.
I don’t think special interests explain it fully. What would prevent, say, China from having special interests in the US? There’s something more irrational at play. Religion is probably part of it. But I think western bias and racism can’t be discounted. It’s well known that the Reagan administration supported South Africa during Apartheid. Why was that?
Views need to be challenged with reason and evidence, and things needs to be called what they are as often as possible: racist, immoral, illegal, irrational.
I used to be pro Israeli, not any more (not for many years), I started disliking what Israel stood for after Ariel Sharon came to power, he’s dead now of course (may he not rest in peace) and has continued ever since. As an Englishman living in Norway, my view is shared by more and more people (not the people in charge). There is one thing and one thing only that you have to ask yourself, “Would I like to be treated as ordinary Palestinians are treated, I don’t think so, the Nazis also had this total lack of empathy, I think Israel is moving quickly in this direction!
How was the recent NSA story received in Norway?
http://www.dagbladet.no/2014/04/26/nyheter/snowden_i_norge/edward_snowden/nsa/etterretningstjenesten/32991102/
They’re all scumbags, I’m a political atheist, they’re all spying on us but this has nothing to do with how the Palestinian people are treated in their own homeland. After the Emperor Vespasian’s son, Titus destroyed Jerusalem in AD 70 (or there about), The Palestinians settled there, so that’s nearly 2000 years!
Ian.. With all due respect, this ‘direction’ for which you refer was achieved (Deir Yassin) and has systematically continued for the last 66 years.
http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/deir-yassin-remembered/
Myself,I’d be very very pro Israeli,if they were in fact a non racist nation,that eschewed justice for all,and who made their surrounding neighbors more prosperous and who lived up to the Zionist mantra of a light unto all nations.Which was all possible at one time,but the extreme trauma of living in their BS has made it increasingly unlikely in the future.Not that i think they believe their BS,but they can’t get over the fact that we won’t.
Wasn’t the Ford grandfather a pro-Nazi supporter? The name recognition of the Ford Foundation is synonymous to the Ford corporation (I assume the Ford family of the Ford Corporation gave the money to the Ford Foundation). I don’t think modern day Ford wants to still be perceived as being anti-semitic in light of the family history of anti-semitism (by which I mean the grandfather was anti-Jewish – he didn’t want Jews working for him at Ford Motor Company and he supported the Nazis before we were at war with Germany).
The Palestinian / Israeli situation is very complicated. There are really only two countries in the world with large Jewish populations. The United States and Israel. While there may be pressure in the US to be pro-Israel, almost all countries on the planet except US and Israel do not share this attitude so I am not so concerned about there not being a two-sided spirited debate despite the majority of American universities being pro-Israel – of course I am Jewish so go figure. When I was in college, I was a computer science major so the topic never came up in any of my classes. The article seems to imply that because future American politicians are educated in American universities and because the professors who teach history at these universities have a pro-Israeli bias, that these students who are future politicians will have this bias as well. I am not sure that this is the case. I don’t think that future politicians will have the exact same outlook as a University professor who taught their history class 20 or 30 years ago. I think most politicians understand that there is a long and complex history to that part of the world. Jews lived in Israel for thousands of years. Most Jews left to go to Europe and it became mostly Muslim. Jews returned after the holocaust in Europe. I have a friend who is Muslim and he makes the argument that it is unfair for Muslims in Palestine to lose their land because of the holocaust in Europe that they had nothing to do with. I understand that from that perspective it probably seems unfair to these individuals. From the Jewish perspective, it was our land, and we returned to reclaim what was rightfully ours. This is probably the way that Spanish Christians felt about reclaiming Spain from the Moors. It is a complex issue that will never get resolved in my lifetime.
There will never be a political solution or settlement. What’s needed is spiritual awakening:
1. Don’t do to others what you don’t want done to yourself.
2. Stop seeing ‘otherness': there is no ‘us’ vs ‘them’.
3. Act through the higher self/consciousness, which reflects qualities, such as generosity, selflessness, peace, justice, love, equality, forgiveness, humility, modesty, lack of love and hunger for power, control and attachment to the transient.
Some history. Henry Ford (Mr. Model T) did publish, in the Dearborn Independent, his paper, a series of anti-Semitic articles in the early 1920s (including republishing the libel Protocols), eventually compiled in a book “The International Jew” that a young agitator named A. Hitler found inspiring. (Ford is the one American mentioned in his book My Struggle — favorably.)
It’s also true that Ford and GM (through its /dba/ Opel) had truck factories in Europe, seized by the Nazis and made to produce the German army’s trucks. It’s also true that the Ford Motor Company, under Henry’s son Edsel, built aircraft engines and, at its Willow Run plant, entire B-24 Liberators, for the Allied cause.
FYI, FWIW.
Good comment,but only partially correct:More and more Americans of single citizenship(The only real kind)are awakening to the threat of fifth column Zionists using America as their Israeli expansion facilitator,all the while destroying American democracy with their ill gotten fortunes extracted from the American people by theft,subterfuge and owning political whores.Gator;In a true democracy,money and power should not override the voice of the people,but here in America it’s done incessantly,as where is the voice of common America allowed by the MSM control,other than comments (and which are overwhelmingly anti current US policy)to the editors,as almost every article and opinion are overwhelmingly by belligerent Zionists?And how come the defense of Israel,almost always is exclusively by Jews like yourself?It’s good to own the pulpit eh?
Well,whatever Henry Ford was,he wasn’t a dual citizen traitor,and with his true American patriotism,he wouldn’t stand for the eviscerating of America by Zionist outsourcing and thievery.
He had honor,a lost conception among our current unintelligentsia.
And a contribution to our culture. Ladies and gentlemen, “Lord Mr. Ford”.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaDQG8GOcbc
“Well, if all our cars were laid end to end
From here to the moon and back again
There’d be some poor fool who’d try to pass.”
sheesh.The deep thinker spews.
Given Senator Kerry’s recent remarks, it’s looking like this statement has just passed its expiration date:
Subsequent attempts to dilute the message are rife, but pointless, as the world has finally heard what most sensible observers have been saying for a long time.
Put another way: with pro-Israel advocates like Netanyahu, who needs enemies? Denial and aggression is the order of the day, but that order really ought to become an acknowledgement of Kerry’s honest complaint. Truth, then reconciliation.
All fine and dandy and no disrespect to Mr. Abunimah, but wtf Glenn, where is YOUR insight?! I miss your blog articles. This next Snowden leak better be earth-shattering, we’re missing an important voice in the mean time.
Only The Finest Reality Based Programming.
NGO Centre UA has a strong professional and human potential. The team has experience of running the projects in the sphere of European and Euro-Atlantic integration. At the same time Centre UA consists of experts and activists who have experience in journalism, public service, PR, public activities, etc. Also Centre UA has extensive database of contacts with international experts, politicians and journalists. On the moment Centre UA is the coordinator of the New Citizen Public Campaign, which brings together around 40 NGOs . The objectives of the organization is to promote civic initiatives aimed at strengthening the influence of civil society on the government; to promote projects in various sectors, aimed at the development and preservation of democratic processes in Ukraine; to develop projects concerning European and Euro-Atlantic integration of Ukraine; to create permanent discussion platform for representatives of civil society and government.
There’s a girl(?) named Mona who posted 45 times on this page. Is she OCD or groupie?
I think she’s a moderator. Good luck with that.
Mona is the hall monitor.
Well, well, look what the dogs dragged in! Fancy meeting you here, Glenn.
Vacation! That’s nice and well-deserved (I’m sure) … but you should have at least told me, your real Boss (unlike Pierre who only pays you.). *I was beginning to fret they had nabbed you at a fund-raiser on the Upper East Side and were forcing you to write Norwegian articles promoting IBM super-computers as punishment for your insolence.
With this in mind, by all means take your time and: make sure The Ediotor JOhn CoOk vets the fuck outta those near- indecipherable NSA docs. *Riddle; ‘what kind of bird don’t fly’? (rewsna: liaJ driB)
Now, wrt: >”We were VERY EXPLICIT AND CLEAR from the start that we were launching earlier than we were ready for one reason and one reason only: TO REPORT ON NSA STORIES. (and paraphrase; ‘some of my personal bloggings.’)
That’s fine and dandy by me, Glenn, and do me favor and tell John Cook to STFU … his ‘Pando’ gonzo-style editorializing should best be left to Taibbi who knows how to do it without pissing off entire segments of the population. (No offense John, just different strokes for different folks.)
With respect to your present (blog) contribution the inequities of Israeli society, as the most American you know (except Titonwan) I can only tell you in the 21st Century it behooveth one not to boast so much of one’s love of country, but of one’s love of the whole wide world.
In any case, all is well that ends well. If you’re happy, I’m happy … http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3kGlNekzNA
p.s. ~ Happy Hanukkah John Cook
I was interested in a response to this as it went un commented by any one and contained something I’d never thought of : “a Snowden defense fund”
@Wilhelmina I think had it been posted earlier it may have had a response from Glenn.
I hope the block quote works as I don’t think an elf will fix this one.
Ok I lost the line returns, how did that happen? (and don’t need extra brackets). Red Hyper links will have to wait.
Ms Gummidge..
Why bother w/ refuting an obvious hack-piece that is based on speculative hearsay? If Wilhelmina has any references that can substantiate her current fact-less (ht`sillyputty) assertions, then by all means..
E. Snowden Legal Fund(s):
https://wikileaks.org/freesnowden
https://www.freesnowden.is/
https://secure.actblue.com/page/snowden
‘dope elves unite’
http://freesnowden.is/donate.html
$119,970 ;-)
I invite anyone complaining about our supposedly slow pace of disclosures to compare (a) how many stories we’ve published and documents we’ve disclosed since our launch to (b) the number of stories and documents published by the Washington Post, the NYT and the Guardian – all with much, much larger staffs – in the same period.
Do let us know what you find.
While I know you cannot be specific, do those other publishers have a comparable number of documents to those which TI has power over?
The NYT, the Guardian, the WashPost/Bart Gellman, and ProPublica all have many tens of thousands of documents.
That’s many tens of thousands.
Der Spiegel has access to quite a large number as well.
Now I’ll ask again:
I invite anyone complaining about our supposedly slow pace of disclosures to compare (a) how many stories we’ve published and documents we’ve disclosed since our launch to (b) the number of stories and documents published by the Washington Post, the NYT and the Guardian – all with much, much larger staffs – in the same period.
Do let us know what you find.
The inverse relationship between number of staff and number of stories is interesting. I have noticed that as The Intercept hires more writers, the number of articles it publishes also decreases. I’m not an economist, but I believe they call this the law of diminishing returns.
I suggest that instead of repeating these same answers to the same questions again and again, that you simply link to your comment below since your statement fully satisfied the contrarian in me regarding this specific issue.
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/04/27/excerpt-battle-justice-palestine/#comment-29898
@ Benito Mussolini:
Duce mio mai, the inverse proportion to Post/NYT staffs to Snowden stories may not be a simple mathematical curve. Timidity at the Post and NYT may be an unquantifiable variable. Didn’t Avanti, the newspaper, have these kinds of inhibitions?
Timidity is a function of the number of lawyers on staff. The lawyers’ job is to consider possible legal threats that may arise if an article is published. The more lawyers you have, the more potential threats they find. Businesses speak of ‘arming themselves with lawyers’, but in actual fact, the lawyers advice is always not to fight.
I didn’t waste time with lawyers – my blackshirts simply burned down Avanti’s offices (I’d moved on to bigger things by then and found an adversarial press to be inconvenient).
“I invite anyone complaining about our supposedly slow pace of disclosures to compare (a) how many stories we’ve published and documents we’ve disclosed since our launch to (b) the number of stories and documents published by the Washington Post, the NYT and the Guardian – all with much, much larger staffs – in the same period.” – Glenn Greenwald
I have read every “Snowden disclosure” thus far. That which has been published to date falls far short of that which could have been published in the same period of time had numerous journalists been given access to the complete trove of stolen classified documents. As this is the only point that you have chosen to address, I am left with the reasonable perception that the rate of disclosure is the only point of contention in my original post.
Bingo! that was the point that stuck out to me also in your original post… However there is I expect a limit to how many people could go through the documents before it becomes a ‘larger security risk'; 1 because more people exposed to classified details (not published) and 2 because it would all come out FASTER so potentially more dangerous to US interests (harder to brush under carpet/coverup/smooth over)…
Certainly, the revelations may be far short of what we’re told is still in the Snowden trove. But, granting Glenn’s point (b), that the Post and the NYT have “much, much larger staffs,” well, it doesn’t mention another variable: their timidity. If the Post and the NYT, newspapers of conventional wisdom and the Powers that Be (to borrow a book title on the subject) had the entire trove, how timid would they be about reporting on them? Without checking with the unnamed sources that spoon-feed them Washington inside stuff, or without considering whether this questions the status quo?
If you gave David Brooks or Tom Friedman, say, an NSA memo proposing to dismantle the Statue of Liberty, sell it for scrap, and blame it on the WCTU, do you think he’d print it? Or redact it and explain it as an example of economic austerity?
Stipulating Glenn’s point (b) further, QED, it’s no wonder the number of stories is far less. Don’t even need to quantify it. We’re a long way from the day of the Pentagon Papers or Deep Throat.
Good points!
>”But, granting Glenn’s point (b), that the Post and the NYT have “much, much larger staffs,” well, it doesn’t mention another variable: their timidity.”
And for good reason coram. I vividly recall GCHQ marching the Editor of the Guardian, Alan Rushburger, down to the basement and beating the living daylights out The Grauns computers on the oft-chance they merely ‘contained’ NSA docs.
*I was also under the impression that Glenn had to ‘pitch a fit’ to get them to publish even before that!
>”If you gave David Brooks or Tom Friedman, say, an NSA memo proposing to dismantle the Statue of Liberty, sell it for scrap, and blame it on the WCTU, do you think he’d print it? Or redact it and explain it as an example of economic austerity?”
David Brooks would have to check w/ the DNC and Tom Friedman would bomb it (after he ‘sucked on it’.)
Edit ffs. By “DNC” I mean, of course, Mr. Shields
There are also calls from numerous quarters in the UK – media, political, Parliamentary – for the Guardian and its top editors to be prosecuted for having given 10,000s of documents to the NYT. There is still a criminal investigation pending over that.
That’s why doing that (sending around indiscriminate numbers of documents to media outlets) is so dangerous: because it converts the person distributing the documents from “journalist” to “source” or “distributor”, which has all sorts of legal and criminal ramifications. It’s an easy risk to dismiss and wave away if it’s not yours to take (like all risks), which is why some are so blithe about it.
Moreover, the Guardian – when I was there- – handed the NYT an archive of many tens of thousands of documents. Does anyone think that sped up the reporting in any meaningful way? It didn’t. The NYT produced very, very, very few articles from that massive archive in the 7 months or so since they got it.
Moreover, the decision about which media outlets should get which documents is the source’s to make. He had very particular ideas about which journalists and outlets he wanted to have which documents – and which ones he didn’t.
Finally, I hope nobody interprets my willingness to address these critiques (again and again) as some sort of acknowledgment that i consider them even minimally valid. I don’t. I go to bed every night knowing that – by myself – I published more documents, in more places around the world, than every large media institution that has massive archives of these documents, with many more that I’m still working on, and thus sleep very well. The fact that my source (the one who took the risks to make these documents available) believes I very faithfully adhered to our agreement, fulfilled the objectives we set out to achieve, and discharged my duties to him as a journalist, only bolsters that certainty.
If people want to delude themselves into believing that all sorts of Great Things would have happen had we just posted more documents, or that all sorts of Great Evils would have been uncovered had we just found a way to give the archive to a few more media outlets, go ahead. None of that bears any relationship to reality.
@ Mr. Greenwald,
That fully answers my question regarding the quantity of documents released to publishers. However, it does not cover the quality and relevancy of those documents that each publisher might consider newsworthy–or not. Nevertheless, that does not matter, given your explanation.
(I had a rather long reply that I just deleted).
“There are also calls from numerous quarters in the UK – media, political, Parliamentary – for the Guardian and its top editors to be prosecuted for having given 10,000s of documents to the NYT. There is still a criminal investigation pending over that.”
This is not only water under the bridge, but purely predictable posturing by those politicians whose actions/policies are being called into question via the Snowden revelations. Did you expect them to act any differently? Isn’t this the whole point of civil disobedience in general, or of whistle blowing specifically?
“That’s why doing that (sending around indiscriminate numbers of documents to media outlets) is so dangerous: because it converts the person distributing the documents from “journalist” to “source” or “distributor”, which has all sorts of legal and criminal ramifications. It’s an easy risk to dismiss and wave away if it’s not yours to take (like all risks), which is why some are so blithe about it.”
Again, this is the same old straw man argument. I never suggested that anyone send an “indiscriminate” number of documents to media outlets. By your own admission, you have successfully shared the classified documents with numerous media outlets of your choosing. I do not understand why a similar arrangement can not be worked out whereby all of the stolen classified documents are shared with those same media outlets; what is the legal difference between four and forty?
“Moreover, the Guardian – when I was there- – handed the NYT an archive of many tens of thousands of documents. Does anyone think that sped up the reporting in any meaningful way? It didn’t. The NYT produced very, very, very few articles from that massive archive in the 7 months or so since they got it.”
This goes to the question of political timidity (h/t Coram Nobis). If twenty (or more) competing media outlets (domestic and foreign) possessed the entire trove of Snowden documents, and were publishing elements from therein, then the NY Times would feel compelled to publish; failing to do so would permanently tarnish its brand.
“Moreover, the decision about which media outlets should get which documents is the source’s to make. He [Snowden] had very particular ideas about which journalists and outlets he wanted to have which documents – and which ones he didn’t.”
This is pure bullshit. By your own account, Snowden recognized the fact that “professional journalists” were better equipped to decide which documents were worthy of publication. Those documents that he did not want published, he kept. Although Snowden might have stated a personal preference as to which media outlets should receive the stolen classified documents, there is no legal obligation to follow his unprofessional recommendation – especially in light of the NYTs failure to publish. The primary criterion that should govern the publication of the stolen classified documents is the singular concern for facilitating the greater good. If the greater good can be served by supplying those documents to those who are eager to publish, then screw the NY Times et al. How many times have you made the case that mainstream news outlets can not be counted on take an adversarial position to the sitting administration? Yet, when convenient, you cite the NY times’ predictable timidity as a justification for not sharing the Snowden documents? Really?
“Finally, I hope nobody interprets my willingness to address these critiques (again and again) as some sort of acknowledgment that i consider them even minimally valid.”
Repeatedly failing to adequately address these critiques is ample acknowledgement that you hold in contempt anyone who would challenge your modus operandi in regard to the Snowden revelations. The elephant in the room is that of personal profit; the reasons for your publication strategy is far more simply understood in this context alone.
“Simpler explanations are, other things being equal, generally better than more complex ones.” William of Ockham (c. 1287 – 1347)
Glenn Greenwald 29 Apr 2014 at 3:52 pm
You mention that the Guardian gave the NYT tens of thousands of documents. You do not mention explicitly whether you gave those documents to the Guardian. Did you?
And though I doubt you want to address this here, why was it necessary for documents to be brought back from Berlin (assuming that was the case) when both you and Laura Poitras were said to have complete sets of the documents?
It’s a question that will need to be addressed for historical clarity and I am sure at some time in the future it will be. At present it’s a bit of a puzzle.
In your opinion, what do you think is the reason for the paucity of articles from the other news outlets lately?
The Statue of Liberty has thermite traces also?
“And though I doubt you want to address this here, why was it necessary for documents to be brought back from Berlin (assuming that was the case) when both you and Laura Poitras were said to have complete sets of the documents?
It’s a question that will need to be addressed for historical clarity and I am sure at some time in the future it will be. At present it’s a bit of a puzzle.”
Indeed! This is a question that went unanswered when I posed it months ago on the Guardian website. Logical inconsistencies are like steel splinters festering under the skin of the body politic… the more that they are ignored, the more they demand attention.
Complaining is one way to look at it.
I invite you to answer this, were it possible to release them any faster would it then be ‘better’ in terms of ‘public interest’.
So if by comparing (a) and (b) we discover intercept pace quicker what is wrong with looking at
c) A faster way (even if that takes a 2months less time overall)
Logically unless I’m missing something Faster=Better especially if we want (a) to be greater than (b)
There are many, many metrics that are important beyond “speed of release”. Almost all of them, to me, are more important than “speed of release”. The most important to me is impact. And significantly increasing the speed of release – even if that were possible – would not only make serious mistakes more likely, and not only suffocate the stories, and not only put the focus on journalistic recklessness rather than the substance of the disclosures, but would also make the stories much weaker in all sorts of ways.
Also, this complaint is incredibly arbitrary. What is a sufficient speed of release, exactly? I have absolutely zero doubt that if we had posted double the number of documents and stories by now – or even quadruple – the very same people would be complaining that we hadn’t posted “enough”, because “enough” is a vacant, meaningless, arbitrary standard that is just a vehicle for grievance, not any measurable or achievable metric.
Like the Spiderman, Turn Off the Dark-like pre-opening impact your publication is engendering on the reading public right now.
Ok.. Firstly as I hinted (but can only talk for myself I suppose) it is not a complaint.
I do not know the sufficient speed of release but I infer that you think it is ‘sufficient’… possibly based on a measurable or achievable metric?
Your first paragraph makes a lot of sense but I expected you to take these things for granted as we were comparing speed of (a) and (b) where the “quality” of the stories (i.e no mistakes) was the same in (a) and (b)… and therefor “C”
As it was not a complaint i’m not sure if it follows that my or others ‘questions’ are arbitrary unless they have been answered already (in which case I apologize for repeating them).
The zero doubt bit avoids (again) the ‘question’ by moving it to complaints. If it were possible to release double the number of stories on/with documents whether the same people (of which I am not one) were to complain or not is irrelevant.
Thank you for continuing to comment on these questions, it does not show validity to critique, it provides answers which inform the public.
Rowan
I genuinely don’t believe there’s any way to substantially increase the speed of release while maintaining the same level of quality and impact. I’m not saying we’ve gotten this perfect: we’ve been trying to balance complex, competing considerations for 10 months without a handbook. Of course there are times when we erred on one side of the equation or the other.
But on the whole: there has been a worldwide, sustained debate around the world for far longer than anyone anticipated, with all sorts of reform movements and changes in how people think about a wide array of issues.
Here’s an anecdote: in the first week of publication, back in June, I published one story every day for 5 straight days, culminating in the Snowden-unveiling article.
Even allies at civil liberties and internet freedom organizations – people who work on these issues for a living – complained that we were releasing stories too quickly, that we were suffocating our own revelations, that it was impossible to process or keep up with the disclosures, that we were preventing rather than engendering debate by piling things up too fast and without enough time and space for the fallout to develop.
Of course, if I were just going to post the documents myself on some internet page, I could do it very quickly. But Snowden insisted, and we agreed, that we would only publish these documents within a journalistic context, with established media organizations.
That means that a process – sometimes a lengthy one – has to be engaged to get these documents published. No sizable outlet is going to publish top secret documents without involving lawyers. Many of the documents take a lot of time to understand. You have to consult with outside experts, do other research, search the archives for context. Then you write the articles with colleagues, they go through editors, then lawyers, then back again. It’s vital to get the stories right: the NSA and its apologists would love nothing more than if we get things wrong. All of this takes a lot of time.
I’ve published with different media outlets around the world, and am publishing in my own book, precisely because spreading the stories around to different venues was one way to make this go faster. You see that even the largest outlets – like the WashPost and the NYT – were only publishing 1, or at most 2, stories per month even at their peak. Yes, some of that – a lot of it perhaps – was due to timidity and a desire not to do too much. But a lot of it was about the fact that these issues and documents are very complex and hard to sort through, as are all the ancillary processes needed to be engaged to get them published.
I’m convinced that there was and is no way to get them published faster without sacrificing these other crucial considerations. And I really don’t think there’d be much upside, but there could be a lot of downside, from publishing faster. The public certainly doesn’t think there’s been too few disclosures: if anything, one problem has been their ability to process what we have disclosed.
Glenn, thanks for the comments, down thread, about pace. Just a thought…it might be interesting to print the next document with an overlay or narrative of what is involved in bringing it to publication (which lawyers have to vet which points, how you choose one from thousands, how many eyes vet each one, etc.). I would find that fascinating. I think it might help some appreciate how much work goes into the distilling process . It takes a hundred pounds of flower blossoms to make an ounce of perfume ; I imagine the distillation ratio is rather similar in terms of hours invested to documents published.
Thanks for the hard work; it must be exhausting, confounding, enraging, and exhilarating in equal parts. On that note, it might be interesting to have you and other Intercept writers flag which revelations you personally find most disturbing, revealing, dangerous and/or important. Is there one that has stood out thus far?
“Here’s an anecdote: in the first week of publication, back in June, I published one story every day for 5 straight days, culminating in the Snowden-unveiling article.
Even allies at civil liberties and internet freedom organizations – people who work on these issues for a living – complained that we were releasing stories too quickly, that we were suffocating our own revelations, that it was impossible to process or keep up with the disclosures, that we were preventing rather than engendering debate by piling things up too fast and without enough time and space for the fallout to develop.” – Glenn Greenwald
The fact that the Snowden “disclosures” are being released with the specific intent of fomenting a particular type of political response, within a predetermined length of time, calls into question the very definition of “journalism.” When coupled with the public admission that the publication of these disclosures are being coordinated with civil liberties and internet freedom organizations, your argument lays bare the political agenda that has drawn criticisms of first amendment abuses by “politically motivated” change agents.
Unlike yourself, I have no dog in this race. I do not believe that the common man has to be spoon fed the revelations contained within the Snowden documents. Although a politically coordinated release of the Snowden documents might “engender” the type of debate that best meets the short-term political aims of those cited, the perceived need for such coordination is eerily reminiscent of the elite sentiment that the common man is to stupid to fully participate in a democracy as a sovereign entity. Rather, it is understood that the common man has to be governed like a herd whose direction at any given time is managed by select group of elites via clandestine psychological manipulation.
“That means that a process – sometimes a lengthy one – has to be engaged to get these documents published. No sizable outlet is going to publish top secret documents without involving lawyers. Many of the documents take a lot of time to understand. You have to consult with outside experts, do other research, search the archives for context. Then you write the articles with colleagues, they go through editors, then lawyers, then back again. It’s vital to get the stories right: the NSA and its apologists would love nothing more than if we get things wrong. All of this takes a lot of time.” – Glenn Greenwald
This is a totally legitimate argument. However, you are not the only individual who is capable of coordinating such efforts. In total, you are arguing that the desire to tightly control and/or exploit the political fallout from the Snowden revelations necessitate your direct personal involvement in every phase of the publication process. Thus, the rate at which the Snowden documents get published will be determined by their perceived political effect. The desire to tightly harness the truth in a way that affects a particular political outcome is a formula for failure. Even if the politically conscious placement of constraints upon the rate at which truth should be revealed to the public-at-large could be justified, such delays predictably provide a window of opportunity wherein the implementation of countervailing strategies can be affected to preserve the status quo. Forcing planes to land, detaining couriers/activists in airports, breaking into the homes of journalists, secret grand juries, monitoring the electronic communications and physical movements of perceived opponents, and political posturing are just the opening volley of those who do this for a living. All delays invariably work in favor of those whose own elite brand of political pragmatism keeps all options on the table.
Ensuring that the public is informed to the best extent possible about what powerful factions are doing in the dark, and enabling an informed and coherent public debate about those issues, is exactly what journalism is about.
That the releases are being “coordinated” with any groups is something you just made up. We got feedback from many places about how we were reporting these stories. The groups I cited were one example of many.
Literally dozens of journalists and editors from around the world are working on Snowden documents at all times. The NYT, the WashPost, ProPublica and the Guardian all have tens of thousands of Snowden document and have been in possession of their archives for many, many months. Even here at the Intercept, other journalists besides me not only have access to, but possess, the full archive.
Ignoring those facts in order to pretend that I exert some sort of monopoly on the information is definitely a favorite tactic for those who want to obsess on my role. But it doesn’t actually make those facts disappear.
“That the releases are being “coordinated” with any groups is something you just made up. We got feedback from many places about how we were reporting these stories. The groups I cited were one example of many.” – GG
Here is what you actually said:
“Even allies at civil liberties and internet freedom organizations – people who work on these issues for a living – complained that we were releasing stories too quickly, that we were suffocating our own revelations, that it was impossible to process or keep up with the disclosures, that we were preventing rather than engendering debate by piling things up too fast and without enough time and space for the fallout to develop.” – GG
More succinctly, the efficacy of the Snowden disclosures is being determined by “allies at civil liberties and internet freedom organizations.” In turn, this perceived efficacy is being used by you as a metric in the regulation of the rate that the documents are being published. These are your words.
“Literally dozens of journalists and editors from around the world are working on Snowden documents at all times. The NYT, the WashPost, ProPublica and the Guardian all have tens of thousands of Snowden document and have been in possession of their archives for many, many months.
1. What percentage of the Snowden collection do these various outlets possess?
2. Do these media outlets all possess the same subset of documents?
3. Where and how did these media outlets obtain their subset of documents?
4. Please provide a complete list of those who possess a subset of documents
“Even here at the Intercept, other journalists besides me not only have access to, but possess, the full archive.” – GG
This point does not impress me. Everyone who works at the Intercept is governed by a contractual relationship with a single controlling entity. Unless you are willing to disclose, in detail, the nature of those relationships, I must conclude that the are not at liberty to publish any of the Snowden documents without express approval.
“Ignoring those facts in order to pretend that I exert some sort of monopoly on the information is definitely a favorite tactic for those who want to obsess on my role. But it doesn’t actually make those facts disappear.” – GG
You were actually being quite civil until now. How can I ignore facts that are not in evidence? Or, how can I ignore facts that are spoken in a way that are intended to obscure rather than reveal? Answer one simple question: What Percentage of the Snowden documents are under exclusive control by those who work for Pierre Omidyar?
That is apparently your favorite pet elephant, but he or she most certainly isn’t trampling or roaming around the rooms of most people’s imaginations. You’re sounding like a drunk with the DTs who is trying to swat at the attacking insects that are swarming around your body.
BZZZZZZZZZ!
For the benefit of those who are not governed by a hive mentality, I offer the following challenge once again:
If concern for profit is not a principle motivating factor in the way that the Snowden documents are being published, then there should be no problem with diverting those profits to a Snowden defense fund. If this strategy poses a threat to Edward Snowden (Profiting from disclosure) then the profits can go to the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EEF?), the Private Manning Family Fund, or a more generalized whistle blower defense fund to name a few.
the elephant in the room DAY dot
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_qnibKlryg
‘The reason we had only half the usual crop last summer,’ he said slowly, lowering his voice, ‘was because I turned one hundred of my hives over to the production of royal jelly.’
‘You what?’
‘Ah,’ he whispered. ‘I thought that might surprise you a bit. And I’ve been making it ever since right under your very nose.’ His small eyes were glinting at her, and a slow sly smile was creeping around the corners of his mouth.
‘You’ll never guess the reason, either,’ he said. ‘I’ve been afraid to mention it up till now because I thought it might…well…sort of embarrass you.’
There was a slight pause. He had his hands clasped high in front of him, level with his chest, and he was rubbing one palm against the other, making a soft scraping noise.
‘You remember that bit I read you out of the magazine? That bit about the rat? Let me see now, how does it go? ‘”Still and Burdett found that a male rat which hitherto had been unable to breed…”’ He hesitated, the grin widening, showing his teeth.
‘You get the message, Mabel?’
She stood quite still, facing him.
‘The very first time I ever read that sentence, I just jumped straight out of my chair and I said to myself if it’ll work with a lousy rat, I said, then there’s no reason on earth why it shouldn’t work with Glenn Greenwald.’
He paused again, craning his head forward and turning one ear slightly in his wife’s direction, waiting for her to say something. But she didn’t.
‘And here’s another thing.’ He went on. It made me feel so absolutely marvellous, Mona, and so sort of completely different to what I was before that I went right on taking it even after you’d announced the joyful tidings. Buckets of it I must have swallowed during the last 12 months working on the Snowden docs.’
The big heavy haunted-looking eyes of the woman were moving intently over the man’s face and neck. There was no skin showing at all on the neck, not even at the sides below the ears. The whole of it, to a point where it disappeared into the collar of the shirt, was covered all the way round with those shortish hairs, yellowy black.
‘Mind you,’ he said, turning away from her, gazing lovingly now at the baby, ‘it’s going to work far better on a tiny infant than on a fully developed man like me. You’ve only got to look at her to see that, don’t you agree?’
The woman’s eyes travelled slowly downward and settled on the baby. The baby was lying naked on the table, fat and white and comatose, like some gigantic grub that was approaching the end of its larval life and would soon emerge into the world complete with mandibles and wings.
‘Why don’t you cover it up, Mona?’ he said. ‘We don’t want our little queen to catch a cold.’
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdDEgBAlNLc
This is not Glenn, he uses an image of himself when he comments here. This is a lame copycat, MEOW! Cat fight goes to the dogs.
I, too, have had others steal my nom here and attempt to mimic my work.
Glenn would NOT divide one idea into an a and b thang. He would consider an imperative to compare the work of “we’ve” to that of WaPo and the NYTs a SINGULAR task.
How’s my aim, Heavy Bullets?
Well; Pressurize; it finally worked…
What am I missing that my comments are not posted…???
Please explain what I need to do other than my name and email address…?/
If a Jewish state, by definition, is “racist” and “discriminatory,” then isn’t every Arab state “racist and discriminatory?” Isn’t every Muslim state “racist and discriminatory?”
But how come nobody ever says “Arab and Muslims states, by definition, are racist and discriminatory and need to be dismantled.”
Yet every day a thousand “radical leftists” and their Islamist buddies scream how the very existence of a Jewish state is a mistake that needs to be corrected?
Other than Iran,every Muslim state in this world is controlled by an American stooge or puppet.Blame America.And do these alleged Muslim states have 1a and 1b citizens?how about America;We are over 90% Christian,or from Christian forbears;Can we be Christian state?Good for the goose,but not the gander?I really don’t think its the Jewish state angle anyway that impedes peace,its the actions of those Jewish citizens in not allowing the Palestinians their own state.
So, Glenn Greenwald continues to promote the views of “intifada”-supporting antisemitic maniacs who declares that the world’s only Jewish state needs to be erased/destroyed and turned into… another Arab or Muslim state. Because apparently Arab states with Arab majorities are OK, Muslim states with Muslim majorities are OK, yet the one tiny Jewish state with a Jewish majority is, by definitely, INHERENTLY EVIL and can only be made “NOT EVIL” if you add millions of Arabs in and make Jews a minority and make Arabs a majority. So democracy if it’s a Jewish-majority = evil. But democracy if it’s an Arab-majority = OK.
Sorry to see how antisemitic the radical left has become. Shilling for people whose only goal in this world is to erase the one Jewish homeland from existence and make it… another Arab state. Because 20+ Arab states existing = FINE! But one tiny Jewish state existing = racist! Destroy it!
Kerry Apologizes for Remark That Israel Risks Apartheid
In a stunning display of who actually calls the shots on US foreign Policy, the Israel First Lobby forced the Secretary of State of the United States of America to get down on his knees and swear that he is a loyal adherent of Israel First foreign Policy and swear that he will never speak independently of the lobby’s wishes ever, ever again. Witnesses said the Sec of State never even saw it coming and was humbled immediately into abject submission. Israel released a statement praising the Israel First Lobby and said it is an integral part of Israel’s ability to control the most powerful nation in the world’s policy toward Israel and the Middle East. Netanyahoo was said to have said “who’s your daddy?”
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/29/world/middleeast/kerry-apologizes-for-remark-that-israel-risks-apartheid.html?partner=rss&emc=rss
From the Guardian,
There seems to be a real epidemic of people impersonating reporters and then exploiting this privilege to publish what people actually said. Possibly the solution is to implant reporters with a microchip so that the impostors can be easily identified by some sort of scanning device. Politicians should be spared from the embarrassment of having their remarks attributed to them. Kerry has now lost all credibility. He can possibly still play a positive role in the dispute between Malaysia and Singapore over Pedra Branca but should be removed from any more sensitive portfolios.
http://discussion.theguardian.com/comment-permalink/34959192
It is self evident that I am more honest, as the other two deny being fascists. James Clapper in turn is slightly more honest than Diane Feinstein, since he at least acknowledges telling untruths (he was lying about the ‘least’ part and it would have been nice if he’d been honest enough to use the word ‘lie’ rather than ‘untruth’, but you have to take your fascists as they are, not how you would wish them to be).
Come on Kerry, show them who’s your true boss!!! lol
I’m wondering for how long could Kerry stay in office (not that he deserves to stay in office for one second) if Netaniahu ordered him out.
Seems like the security apparatus will fight transparency no mater what.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/28/drone-civilian-casualties-senate-bill-feinstein-clapper
The Guardian also has an update story on Barrett Brown.
Prrrecisely.. (.. thx,`feline)
Barrett Brown:
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/apr/28/barrett-brown-lawyer-hacking-jail-free-speech
You’re welcome, suave. Ddd see Bento commenting at CIF – and above.
And thanks for posting the other link, purrsure.
Elizabeth Warren has an autobiography out that’s selling well; the displays are half empty in the stores. #4 on Amazon. You have to consider that’s she’s being courted behind the scenes to make the same kind of underdog challenge for the Democratic nomination that Obama did. Hillary will have to settle for Dept. of State again.
But Elizabeth doesn’t have Barack’s ego (or dark horse, clandestine, dark luciferian, Tavistock-esque, test-tube-candidate provenance), so odds are she won’t, but you never know.
Just reminding you that you are a deeply insane troll.
What did he say that was inaccurate?
http://www.amazon.com/The-Mona-Intercept-Donald-Hamilton/dp/0449143740
INSANE TROLL LOGIC example:
Bedevere: Tell me. What do you do with witches?
Crowd: Burn! Burn them up! Burn!…
Bedevere:
And what do you burn apart from witches?
Villagers:
More witches!
Wood!
Bedevere:So, why do witches burn?
Villager: because they’re made of wood?
Bedevere:
So, how do we tell whether she is made of wood?
Does wood sink in water?
Villager: No. No. No, it floats! It floats!
Bedevere: What also floats in water?
Arthur: A duck!
Bedevere: Exactly. So, logically…
Villager: If… she… weighs… the same as a duck,… she’s made of wood.
Bedevere: And therefore?
Villager: A witch!
oh and you can blame this one on @Nemo_Est_Insula
Inneresting…
Freedom of the Press Foundation:
‘Hillary Clinton made some unfortunate remarks about Edward Snowden and the NSA that weren’t based in facts late last week. So we decided to fact-check her statements.’
https://pressfreedomfoundation.org/blog/2014/04/fact-checking-hillary-clintons-comments-about-edward-snowden-and-nsa
Anyone care to argue whether Israel is in fact an Apartheid State?
Given that there’s no path to peace, we’re really not talking about two states at war, but rather a single state where certain regions are under lock-down and some citizens/residents are discriminated against based on their ethnicity and/or religion. If we don’t call that an Apartheid State, what is it? Maybe an ethnically-based civil war? Plain state oppression and rebellion by part of the populace?
Israel is an apartheid state. Aside from maintaining an open-air prison in Gaza, these are Israel’s apartheid laws: http://www.itisapartheid.org/laws.html
Thank you @Mona for the link. I realize this is incredibly naive of me to ask – but how is it that when the U.S. passed the Comprehensive Anti-Apartheid Act of 1986 that no parallels were drawn against Israel and apartheid? What little I’ve done to research it seems to only suggest that Israel should fall under the same rules of the original Act (and many voices seem to echo this fact) – but I can’t seem to find anything that points directly to how they dodged that bullet and why it’s all STILL conveniently glossed over … although I am drawing some of my own conclusions based purely on assumptions.
I appreciate the historic context you always add to the dialogue and am curious about your observations.
So far I guess that’s a big NO, Jose. Not surprised…
So how about a big “What if…”
I’ve had this nagging thought since hearing the label used by Secretary Kerry that he had now redefined ‘Israel and occupied territories combined’ as something singular and therefore more similar to South Africa in nature. Perhaps it wasn’t intended as a slam of Israel at all, but always meant as something far more insidious. It could effectively and permanently remove the most discussed peace solution from the table forever and thereafter allow Israel and the U.S. to just pretend that “two-state” possibility never existed. The logic chain gets ugly after that…
Does it really matter if Israel has sovereign control over the entire territory? If country A occupies or colonizes country B, and then institutes racist and discriminatory policies in country B, is country A not guilty of the crime of Apartheid?
Also, note that security is not an excuse for the crime of Apartheid. Nelson Mandela’s African National Congress was on the US list of terrorist organizations.
I completely agree it currently functions as an Apartheid State, but I wonder if Israel will even really mind being called that for a few years if it permanently eliminates any possibility of autonomy for the occupied territories. This seems to fly right in the face of UN242 that clearly states those lands do not belong to Israel.
My pepetual concern is very little of what any members of the status quo War Party do – is ever what it seems. This particular overt insult is no different in my mind because I believe the U.S. government is too corrupt and bought off to actually classify Israel such – or ever withdraw financial support. The unofficial label, however, could mean Israel never has to use the words “two state solution,” again.
Additionally, I believe inhabitants of the occupied territories should at least ‘be asked’ if they would prefer autonomy – or instead being annexed, granted citizenship and given the same sort of equal rights people of color have endured in OUR country for a century.
Just keep an open mind the label itself might provide a path, however ugly on the face, to everything Israel wants – and nothing the territories need.
Another excerpt from Mr. Abunimah’s book is available. His chapter considering whether Israel has a “right” to exist as currently constituted is examined here: http://mondoweiss.net/2014/03/abunimahs-justice-palestine.html
Gotta share this mind-boggling tweet that some are mocking:
“The Lord of Cadiz* @Andrew_Ferri
@ggreenwald nothing from you for Holocaust Remembrance Day? I want to be a fan, but sometimes sense anti-semitism. Am I wrong Greenwald.”
https://twitter.com/Andrew_Ferri/status/460878754336608256
*massive eyeroll*
“I’d like to know why Glenn blocked me”: Lane Meyer
Ms Meyer: Buying and selling stuff, ski patrol trainee, wwf obssessed, nail biter, microbrew sampler, ritual slaughterer.
I have been following The Intercept since it began or soon after. The work these people do is very good; and it’s not easy. To those who are full of criticisms – not debate of the issues – stop. Go someplace else. The Intercept isn’t good enough for you, so why the endless and useless streams of disparagement? What you are really doing is demonstrating your opposition to this site’s goals and efforts and trying to diminish this site.
INFINITE LOOP:
Q: Why aren’t you all publishing new articles?
Answer is given.
GO TO THE ABOVE QUESTION
I believe Tel Aviv University historian Prof. Shlomo Sand who reaches back into antiquity to argue that Jewish exile was a myth. He says that the present-day Palestinians are far more likely the descendants of the ancient Semitic people in Judea/ Canaan than the current predominantly Khazarian-origin Ashkenazi populace to which he himself belongs. In other words, the “Jews” of old have been in Palestine all along and the European converts are stealing their land and killing them.
Sand wrote:
But then truth has never gotten in the way of a government stealing and killing now has it?
This has been refuted by genetic testing.
Jewish people decided , that it needs a Jewish mother to grow up as a genuine Jew. Based on this fact, there has been a lot of DNA of other ethnics around in the lots of millenniums this people exists.
I cannot see any advantage in a people being proud not having let in other cultures and preferred marriages within their own family clans. It makes the difference between an open minded and a narrow minded culture.
Mark, this research, described in this article, – http://www.livescience.com/22137-genetics-jewish-diaspora.html – is far more recent and reliable.
http://download.springer.com/static/pdf/143/art%253A10.1007%252Fs00439-012-1235-6.pdf?auth66=1398962998_bcc1da6f25d5d40b2b6487b652973b71&ext=.pdf
Mark, the research discussed in this article is far more reliable.
http://www.livescience.com/22137-genetics-jewish-diaspora.html
Link to the original study.
http://download.springer.com/static/pdf/143/art%253A10.1007%252Fs00439-012-1235-6.pdf?auth66=1398962998_bcc1da6f25d5d40b2b6487b652973b71&ext=.pdf
A significant comment by Glenn Greenwald lower on the page has been unfortunately buried in this thread, swamped perhaps by references relevant to this particular article. Here is the comment:
“We are actively working on several significant NSA stories, including one which I believe to be easily among the biggest, if not the biggest, story yet.”
I just wanted it emphasized. Thank you.
Also, there is this:
“Greenwald, who met with Snowden 10 months ago and wrote about the leaked documents in the Guardian and other media outlets, promised further revelations of government abuses of power at his new media venture the Intercept. ‘My hope and my belief is that as we do more of that reporting and as people see the scope of the abuse as opposed to just the scope of the surveillance they will start to care more,’ he said. ‘Mark my words. Put stars by it and in two months or so come back and tell me if I didn’t make good on my word.'”
http://news.yahoo.com/snowden-greenwald-urge-caution-wider-government-monitoring-amnesty-002855883.html
(This was reported on April 5.)
THAAAAANK GOD! I keep checking this website religiously for new information and it’s static nature is QUITE disappointing! If we’re ever going to make headway against the NSA scum then the American public’s pathetic attention span MUST be constantly stimulated with the latest GROSS travesty of Justice those @ssholes are up too.
WOW, GG had a little time away from writing his book to publish someone elses work on this moribund website he obviously had abandoned in favor of his private desire to write a book. All those other 14 or 15 “journalists” (I put that in quotes because journalists usually write stories but sense none appear perhaps they are not) listed don’t seem to care much about “journaling” either.
The book has long been finished and will be released in days.
Oh, I thought it was perpetual passover.
Further, if the book is in fact “long sense finished” where are the stories on this site about the NSA and the documents he possesses? I was quite happy with the news of this new venture but what have we seen so far? So little it is painful. I don’t mind GG writing a book, he has stated he felt it was the form best suited to the material and I have now way to verify that but take him at his word. Never-the-less, quite some time as passed without any new NSA documents or stories about them. How is all this hopping from one place to another, one form to another really helpful? What on earth are all these other journalists who, we are told, work here doing? Whatever it is it is not writing stories about NSA documents or anything else.
Does no one else find it strange to have a passover message on the site weeks after passover as the only new entry which said only wait more we’re hiring janitors and sales staff?
That’s utter longsense.
Good question!
Mona will now tell you they are out on the same day?
Palestinian Boy V tank
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spCVPedh_14
Does he say at the end:
All I wish is that truth has a tank?
It’s driving me nuts…
When I first saw this, heard the child’s voice and music my first though was cheese. After a couple of plays it is quite heart wrenching. I suppose if the boy wrote the words and was a Palestinian it would be even more powerful (I just happened upon it no idea as to where it came from).
Who is weak and who is strong
Sorry incase miss construed.. I know the photo (which is powerful enough on it’s own) the sound surprised me and of course ‘cheese’ was a bad choice of words in this case.
Is the digital ink less gray, in comments section?
When typing this comment, it’s still barely visible,
but It seems a tad darker when I look at it in the comments.
However, there’s a new problem: change of type-sizes.
What Glenn wrote, what Ali wrote, the comments, typing the comments—are all wildly different type-sizes.
I started reading what Glenn wrote, only to get to Ali’s book—the change from Glenn to Ali, was too much.
I did not read any part of Ali’s book.I could not get comfortable reading it.
May we please have one type-size and one easy-to-read font?
Maybe, there should be a special section, to comment about interface?
I know it’s unusual.
The Israel lobby is having a collective conniption fit over John Kerry’s use of the “A”-word. From Haaretz:
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.587899
Former UK Ambassador Craig Murray-torture whistleblower has not yet been contacted by Intercept. You might want to talk to him.
http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/
I love debates. So I am really looking forward for that one. Livestream on Intercept is a great idea.
https://www.munkdebates.com/debates/state-surveillance
This was supposed to be a reply to MM. [sigh]
Now that Glenn has indicated that TI might stream the debate, it might be moot, but folks can register for the minimum to get access for free (just in case streaming here can’t be arranged).
Dershowitz will argue the state has a duty to protect its citizens against the threat of a terrorist attack.
The best way to accomplish this, as far as I can see without having actually read these important articles, is to preemptively put the usual suspects in prison.
Haydn will simply pound on the damage that disclosures of legitimate spying activity do to national security and to the internet itself.
For Hayden, the ultimate sin is getting caught and the ultimate evil doer is the whistleblower (followed closely by the reporter who reveals the story).
Just realized I put two links in one comment and was caught in the spam filter. However, it is ridiculously easy to circumvent the rules here (perhaps The Intercept should hire a lawyer), so I have divided it into two separate comments.
Dershowitz will argue the state has a duty to protect its citizens against the threat of a terrorist attack.
The best way to accomplish this, as far as I can see without having actually read these important articles, is to preemptively put everyone in prison.
Haydn will simply pound on the damage that disclosures of legitimate spying activity do to national security and to the internet itself.
For Hayden, the ultimate sin is getting caught and the ultimate evil doer is the whistleblower (followed closely by the reporter who reveals the story).
Preventive medicine, preventive care, preventive state. Progressive leftists prevent.
@ Benito Mussolini,
I wonder how many young legal minds Mr. Dershowitz biased during all those decades at Harvard Law? He said this about one of his Harvard law students:
{Quote:
“Off-the-charts brilliant. And you know, liberals make the terrible mistake, including some of my friends and colleagues, of thinking that all conservatives are dumb. And I think one of the reasons that conservatives have been beating liberals in the courts and in public debates is because we underestimate them. Never underestimate Ted Cruz. He is off-the-chart brilliant. I don’t agree with his politics.”
Elsewhere:
Ted Cruz: “After graduating from Princeton, Cruz attended Harvard Law School, graduating magna cum laude in 1995 with a Juris Doctor. While at Harvard Law, Cruz was a primary editor of the Harvard Law Review, and executive editor of the Harvard Journal of Law and Public Policy, and a founding editor of the Harvard Latino Law Review.”
Unquote}
I think these 2 lawyers’ brilliance as law students/teachers and/or legal practitioners demonstrates that such credentials do not necessarily engender ethical, decent, and reasoned human behavior.
Ted Cruz was one of only 15 U.S. Senators to vote no on NDAA 2014.
Where were yours?
He, Ted Cruz, also has introduced and gotten passed legislation in the House that would prevent the US from issuing a visa to Iran’s UN Ambassador, Foreign Minister Mohammad Javad Zarif. This is counter to protocol and to any interests and hopes we may harbor for productive diplomacy.
The small-minded bigotry Ted Cruz exemplifies is abominable and provocative, and demonstrates that he is not capable of assuming the responsibilities of statesmanship.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/dispute-over-iran-s-envoy-to-un-threatens-to-derail-nuclear-talks-1.1754697
Bigotry? Are you crying wolf? That’s what Salon does. You do that enough times and readers see “bigotry” and they think, oh, yeah, that’s the progressive left again.
The UN isn’t the definition of diplomacy only because you accept that banker globalist construct as such.
So, you believe preventing Iran’s foreign minister from attending is a good for international diplomacy and your party? Just trying to get it straight because Ted Cruz has neither acknowledged nor apologized for the US role in ousting Iran’s democratically elected prime minister, and so apparently believes the US has special rights in the world that include ruining the lives of good people everywhere while installing brutal dictators and their killer regimes so as to “protect its American interests”.
While I have supported Ted Cruz’s stand on the NSA and his non-interventionist position on Syria, I deplore many other of his positions. Like too many politicians of all persuasions, he is far too authoritarians to meet kindly with my sense of liberty and justice, which by the way, could never be described as progressive left.
I should inform you that your reaction to any criticism of your favorite dogs is to pull out your progressive left boomerang. It’s all you do. You have never to my knowledge made a cogent response that indicates your thinking is anything other than rote and ideologically conformist.
Cruz didn’t have anything to do with Mosaddegh’s overthrow. Moreover a Democratic administration was in Washington. Why should Cruz apologize for anything?
No, what you deplore is what you’ve been told by your peers to deplore. You’re mind controlled–you hear from your circle about how evil the baddy Ted Cruz is. A legislator who votes No on NDAA and argues against the invasion of Syria is by definition anti-authoritarian. But you won’t have any of it because, like other progressives, you can’t think for yourself.
Not true. Some of other political positions include his anti-abortion stance, his opposition to same sex marriage, which were he not an authoritarian his position would be that neither are any of his business, but the business only of the people personally involved in them. He has decided to make the private decision of a woman regarding her own body his business, which clearly it is not.
You seem confused about what is or is not authoritarian.
From the authority, OnTheIssues.com:
Nothing authoritarian about the above. He’s saying he’s not going to pay for the left’s state-sponsored feature creep and baloney, and as a member of civilized society in a legislative branch of gov’t he’s going to work against partial birth dilation and extractions.
The state doesn’t belong in the marriage business, and that includes its response to your attempts to make it the state’s business.
I think your last paragraph makes an important point which really goes to the issue of how we are picking our “leaders” who time after time fail. The very institutions of Princeton and Harvard, Brown and the rest – they are the ones that fail and fail again. Only systemic change would be effective and that’s a cold day in hell.
So you endorse the NDAA that Cruz voted against.
https://twitter.com/SenTedCruz/status/413893211896025088
Cruz;His obituary for POTUS was published when he went to Adelson and prostrated himself to Israel.Cruz for dogcatcher,Shillary(Condi,S Rice,Power,Pskai,Nuland etc)for dog.
And isn’t Cruz,Cross in Spanish?Very interesting;X man or Z man;I go with hypocrite Z for Zionism man.
He actually is an interesting man, describing himself, “I’m Cuban, Irish, and Italian, and yet somehow I ended up Southern Baptist.” He appears to be highly intelligent and accomplished. He’s also a typical politician, which, for me, is a huge drawback.
If you missed it, Snowden is listed in Time Magazine’s Top 100 Most Influential People, under “Pioneers.”
http://time.com/#70864/edward-snowden-2014-time-100/
I think this is the most important point, and it addresses so many of the ills we are seeing. We see it on every thread on the Guardian about this topic. So many people are routinely modded (why I don’t want to see that happen here) that many simply give up and no longer engage in the debate. That same mentality is behind the war on whistle blowers (and here the term is applicable). Snowden and Manning were meant to be object lessons. The early calls for them to be tried as traitors were intended to instill fear in anyone even contemplating coming forward with data. Ditto those journalists who have tried to tell the truth. Ditto hackers like Adam Schwartz.
Those who are naturally more timid or who have families to support or who fear the targeted retribution they see everywhere aren’t going to risk tackling–writing, outing, teaching– the hard stories anymore. Those sick and tired of being labeled antisemitic or un-American are going, at some point, to simply stop speaking out. That stultifying silence —the opposite of a natural one, as it arises from being gagged–is deadly.
Interesting and very true. As Chomsky said the censorship, the kontrol, is “structural”.
Chomsky was talking about the media but the same forces apply to academia.
Today of course, they have switched to Terrorism and fear ideology and “anti-Communism” has morphed into “anti-Russian”.
Can anyone point to an article attacking Putin for his anti-gay views back when he was helping Bush prosecute his jihad on Islam? They don’t exist.
Putin hasn’t changed, but the goals of the deep state have.
Look at the comments about Putin at the Graun.The overwhelming sentiment against Putin comes from Zionists,feminists and homosexuals.Will WW3 be the first war(the Greeks?) with sexual preference as instigator?And they on the front lines?Time will tell,but I highly highly doubt it.And Pussy Riot,when you lie down with enemies of your people(Russians),it does leave marks,witness their golden silence lately.They couldn’t have besmirched their fellow protestors any worse.
(censorship is not a good “Policy” for this site..or any site for that matter..the basic hypocrisy inherent to censorship…oops..sorry..”Moderation”..is simply impossible to deny..censorship has sadly become a tenet of the Fake Left/Commercial Left/Liberal Brand..as a Real Liberal..this attempt to silence or “Disappear” anything one does not like via the convenient rationale of “Political Correctness” or some equally thin excuse..is truly one reason why the Fake Left is losing the battle for Hearts and Minds.)
Its been quite satisfying to see the “Shift” on college campuses away from this kind of commercial left “political correctness is EVERYTHING” insanity and toward a reasoned reality based approach toward “Israel”.
The sad pathetic pernicious idea that “to support Palestinian Human Rights = Antisemitism” is truly one of the most despicable of the fake ‘left’ memes. Another hysterical screeching attempt at Total Control of thought and belief and of course reality.
Palestinians are amongst the worlds most mistreated and “Held Down” populations.
Israel IS an Apartheid state and corporate fascist enclave of the first rank..War Criminal State also comes to mind.
It is beyond merely ‘sad’ that Israel has become such an entity and it may perhaps also be ‘proof’ of an interesting concept;
“Transference Of Oppression”.
I do believe first noted in the case of Japanese Prison Camp Guards in WWII..and briefly described goes like this;
“Torture And Torment Rolls Down Hill”.
The most stunning example..to me..is what Israel is in fact Doing This For…for it is about…frankly..”Liebensraum” (sic?)…”Living Space”…its simple as that…this is about Stealing Land From Its Rightful Inhabitants and Owners…going so far (as a great article in The Nation outlined) even using “Antiquities Laws” as a rationale to Raze To The Ground entire Palestinian Neighborhoods and in a particularly vile tactic…using antiquities laws (even in one instance “An Ancient Sewer Pipe”) to go after “Neighborhood Social Areas” thus destroying the “Cohesion” of families and communities by “Taking Away A Public Gathering Place” like a Park or Shopping area..this..is what “Israel” has been doing.
One of the worst facets however is the staggering rabid hypocrisy that is inherent to Israels entire “policy” structure and has become a kind of “Template” for America..for anyone..trying to “Excuse With Words” their vicious acts;
To call ANYONE who resists your tyrannical and murderous “Policies”…”Terrorists”..”Racists”…etc..
I mean for Israel..(or America for that matter) to label Others with the “Hate” label…as their Armies murder LITERALLY hundreds of Thousands of innocent Civilians…the sheer magnitude of such arrogance is stunning let alone the psychotic ability to actually see their actions as “Heroic” or the resistance they seek to crush as “Terrorism”…it boggles the mind.
I haven’t got a lot of respect for the “Millennials”…but they do seem to be seeing “Israel” for what it has sadly become.
Boycott and Divest..and at least they see it where Israel is concerned…too bad they fail to see it or “Enact It” here in…well…”The Homeland”.
You make some fine points, but to ascribe the labeling of everything as antisemitic to the “left” is completely wrong. The left has been fighting for Palestinian rights and resisting this labeling –which you rightly call “despicable”– for as long as I can remember.
This left stuff comes from the Zionist Troskyites conversion into Neolibcons,which of course reveals their true colors,as phonies.Ideology sucks anyway,as their are different solutions to different problems.
Perhaps this may be a relevant sidebar to the main story.
“Those who won our independence believed that the final end of the State was to make men free to develop their faculties, and that, in its government, the deliberative forces should prevail over the arbitrary. They valued liberty both as an end, and as a means. They believed liberty to be the secret of happiness, and courage to be the secret of liberty. They believed that freedom to think as you will and to speak as you think are means indispensable to the discovery and spread of political truth; that, without free speech and assembly, discussion would be futile; that, with them, discussion affords ordinarily adequate protection against the dissemination of noxious doctrine; that the greatest menace to freedom is an inert people; that public discussion is a political duty, and that this should be a fundamental principle of the American government. …
“Fear of serious injury cannot alone justify suppression of free speech and assembly. Men feared witches and burnt women. It is the function of speech to free men from the bondage of irrational fears. To justify suppression of free speech, there must be reasonable ground to fear that serious evil will result if free speech is practiced. There must be reasonable ground to believe that the danger apprehended is imminent. … The wide difference between advocacy and incitement, between preparation and attempt, between assembling and conspiracy, must be borne in mind. …”
“Those who won our independence by revolution were not cowards. They did not fear political change. They did not exalt order at the cost of liberty.”
— Brandeis, J., concurrence, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357, 375-377 (1927)
A footnote, FWIW: Louis Brandeis was himself a Zionist.
In fairness, the context of his conversion to Zionism was the rise of Hitler and Nazism, which occurred very late in his life. He died in 1939, so he couldn’t have been a Zionist very long, and for the greatest period of his life he was not Zionist. Einstein himself became a Zionist during the same period, but renounced it once he learnt of how it was being employed, just as many European Jews became Communist in reaction to Nazism, but upon learning of Stalin’s atrocities, renounced it.
Many European Jews became Communist because they were as leftist as many are today. Forward and all that. The authoritarian, statist movement is notorious for infighting and radicalism, as their various strains and factions battle it out for dominance. U.S. socialists promoted the eugenics sciences that Hitler, strident a socialist as any, imported.
What an abhorrently ignorant comment! Most Jewish immigration to the US after the Emancipation of German Jews, was from Russia and Eastern Europe where Judenhass persisted and emancipation stood no chance of gaining currency.
Jews did not become Communist until after the rise of Hitler, the ultimate authoritarian.
And they only became Communist because Russia opposed Hitler and Russia was Communist. Maybe you have forgotten that Communists were also exterminated in the concentration camps.
You appear to be a bit of a Jew hater yourself. Little wonder you get so much so wrong.
Your position is quite badly tainted.
It appears you forget that Communists forbade trade unions (because under socialism they’re rendered obsolete) and that Jewry was persecuted under every regime in the Warsaw Pact; the USSR infamously.
Stay classy.
I would rather the book opened with ‘The Israeli state is losing’, noting what likely goes over the heads of a fair number of people people wherever AIPAC is in play; the backbone of AIPAC is the Israeli alliance with the “New Jews” (a theological term) of the Christian right. In fact the Israeli right propping up the Christian right and the Christian right propping up the Israeli right, is a marriage with a long term outlook of disaster for Israel… the farther out you venture into the Christian right, the stronger the support for ‘Israel can do no wrong’ policies but attending this support is a caveat; also the farther out you venture into the Christian right, the more you discover people closing ranks with the ‘Millennium’ theology holding out for literal Armageddon, with Israel at the center of the stage. And after? This Christian belief holds Jews who do not convert are destined to ‘the lake of fire’ (along with everyone else that is not ‘covered in the blood of Jesus.’)
Hitler’s military had about 8% dedicated National Socialist membership, with the ideological core centered at the top; the present day USA military has about 30% dedicated Christian ‘millennium’ membership with the ideological core centered at the Pentagon and Joint Special Operations Command.
My take is, the top of the pyramid has already been taken by AIPAC friendly forces and its only a matter of time before the State of Israel morphs into the 21st Century Masada at the hands of their present American allies, considering the direction things are taking. Wrong focus Glenn.
http://ronaldthomaswest.com/2014/01/27/drone-strikes-fo-jesus/
^
For clarification, if there exist any doubts about my intent. Regardless of what I have stated, and given the apparent misinterpretation of my comments by some persons, I support The Intercept, most of the staff, and Mr. Greenwald. Their collective voices, even if those are sometimes inexplicably muted, have a critical role in the NSA debate.
The founders knew that a corrupt government must be held in check by a free press, which is crucial to the continuation of our constitutional republic and representative democracy. However, since TI associates and some others now have exceptionally sensitive government documents in their possession, we citizens must also hold them accountable and ensure that they too remain transparent and *continue* to be responsible with their releases of NSA-related articles.
I think it was your tone that got up his nose. Had he taken your advice and thought before posting people still would have got hurt. A real moderator would look at most of what you had written and held back on the sleaze.
We love you Glenn, don’t get so ratty. I’d like to see you on 18 hour shifts personally. Always hated the word Blog, always will…
Good luck and extend your best wishes to all those who take the time to comment (even Mike!!!!).
The customer is always right.
Nice Guys sell more books, a free signed copy for Mike Wolfe delivered by a government agent in a tinfoil boat.
I see comment sections as valuable brainstorming sessions (often called ‘supersum thinking’ within the scientific community). All authors et al. can find a goldmine of ideas—pro/con—to their postulations if they take the time to ‘mine’ those nuggets of thoughts.
Your earlier link to “The man who is alternately rude and polite” video seemed appropriate at the time.
You said in a comment below that this is what you are asking for:
You should be very happy, then, since this is exactly what we’ve been doing, and are continuing to do, and will continue to do – and have been doing without pause since June 5 of last year, including just yesterday.
Could the intercept repost a link to that story on its main page? This community does like to comment.
Now, now, It’s not the intent but the issues raised, esp. to someone trained in the law as he is, esp. to someone who may be under some pressures we can only guess at. Your initial sentences in the post in question:
“Please publish NSA documents as you have pledged to do here, as the often-stated main purpose of this site—to date. J. Cook also stated that NSA-related documents would be published herein while the site was developing and that has not occurred since March 15.* Those NSA documents belong to all U.S. citizens and you are preventing (stonewalling) us from learning the illegal/unconstitutional actions of our government by withholding them …”
1st sentence suggests a promise that, if this was a contract-law question, suggests a clear offer and acceptance, and the lack of a clear deadline probably negates that. The documents will come out as they come out. Dumping them is not an act of journalism. It’s one thing for the site to go dead for much of the month, something else for an expectation about the Snowden documents themselves.
(And as an aside: the journalist in him might see the lede as setting the tone for what follows. Bury the grievance at least 4-5 ‘grafs down).
But it’s the third sentence that may have set him off. Stonewalling. Need to distinguish between an accusation and a simple expectation, don’t we? Worse yet, an accusation that implies deliberate intent and not simply a lapse?
– – –
“If it be now, ’tis not to come; if it be not to come, it will be now; if it be not now, yet it will come: the readiness is all.”
— Hamlet
Just wondering if anyone here is planning on going to see the Munk Debates where Glenn and Alexis Ohanian will square off again ‘Needles’ Dershowitz and Mike “the mike” Hayden?
I would not miss Glenn’s trouncing of that craphound Dershowitz for the world, Bill!!
Speaking of which, if anyone wants to see it livestreamed, you will need to create a free account at http://www.munkdebates.com. I have it listed on my calendar on Friday at 7 pm.
Yeah, it’s going to be epic. We booked a train and a hotel. Going to be epic. Can’t wait! I hope Needles starts to cry! He’s actually not a very good debater. I will be counting down the minutes until he says, “Glenn never met a terrorist he did not like.” Yes, he actually said that and more . . .
He also said this on Piers Morgan
Needles is going to be very sorry he took this gig. The audience will be on Glenn’s side for the most part.
The topic is already rigged.
I would prefer to hear the same parities argue the Net should be bullet proof to intrusion, period. Totally encrypted from start to Finland.
Why do you need to know what I’m thinking or saying to others, HMMMM? Are you a mobile digital advert or a pervert?
THAT’s worth paying to go hear. We’ve heard endless arguments as to why it should be laid open like a fish filet to make millionaires of artful dodging hoodie thugs who steal our wallets, and capture “terrorists,” in due course.
I left a comment on munkdebates website on the debate, it was erased twice.
Hayden/Dershowitz, if you care at all about your country or humanity you’ll throw the debate. You should crap your pants on stage and throw up all over yourselves. Seriously.
I suspect that The Dersh is going to try to shout over his opponents as much as he can. He will be so enraged I think his head may explode. Good stuff.
and don’t worry, about 400 CIA will be there via nasa satellites, “they’ve got everything under control”. And they’ll make sure everyone “receives” the debate just right.
Yeah, just checked. Gone. But weirdly my earlier question, “Why are you deleting comments?” from 13 days earlier is back. It was gone.
They have erased several of mine. Just today I went there and saw that there were no comments, none. So i asked them why they are doing this and told them is was stupid. “Why even have comments?” I am sure that has been deleted too. My earlier comments were well with the bounds of decency. It’s very odd.
I believe that we’re going to be live-streaming it here, at the Intercept, though I’m not 100% certain about that.
That will be great!
Glenn, could you find out, for sure?
It means one less username and pw, registering for the other site.
I’m not too clever…
Also, can someone please clarify which day and when? Thanks.
MM, it is Friday, May 2, at 7 pm.
Glenn: that would be awesome if you can have it live-streamed here. Totally awesome.
For those thinking Dersh will shout over Glenn, this is a formal debate. That’s strictly verboten. All he can do is stew in his apoplexy.
I will enjoy that very much.
I do hope so that would be great to have it livestream here. thanks!
I’m pretty psyched. Granted, I don’t know much about this Dershowitz guy but Mike Hayden, who I saw debating with Bart Gellman, is a formidable figurehead for the NSA.
The Dersh and GG have “a bit of history between them”, as they say. For a taste of what might be in store, see here:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/feb/02/brooklyn-college-bds-alan-dershowitz
And here is Dershowitz’s response, which prompted the update you read in the post I linked above:
http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3573/letter-brooklyn-college-glenn-greenwald
This – from Dershowitz on CNN – was also nice:
http://www.breitbart.com/InstaBlog/2013/06/25/Alan-Dershowitz-Trashes-Anti-American-Glenn-Greenwald
“Well it doesn’t border on criminality it’s right in the heartland of criminality. The statute itself does punish the publication of classified material if you know that it’s classified. And so Greenwald in my view clearly has committed a felony”
As was this, from Mike Hayden:
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/07/19/opinion/hayden-snowden-impact/
“The Guardian newspaper’s Glenn Greenwald, far more deserving of the Justice Department’s characterization of a co-conspirator than Fox’s James Rosen ever was”
Debating two people who used CNN to brand me a felon – I’m sure it will be lovely and civil.
Can someone point me to the statute Mr. Dershowitz references within his video related to the statement that the government could go after a publisher of classified material but pursues the leaker instead ? I think that would help partially resolve my question regarding Mr. Risen’s case, which I posted within TI at the link.
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/04/27/excerpt-battle-justice-palestine/#comment-28973
It’s important also to note that Breitbart uses quotes around the modifier in its title “Alan Dershowitz Trashes ‘Anti-American’ Glenn Greenwald,” which isn’t in the URL string.
Dersh has said about Greenwald that the latter “did this because he hates America,” as well as “You know, he doesn’t like America….”
“Debating two people who used CNN to brand me a felon – I’m sure it will be lovely and civil.” –GG
Sniveling cowards who hide in the shadows of hatred and fear.
@ Nemo_Est_Insula,
Here is the statute that applies to the government’s branding Mr. Risen a criminal for his book publication and it is likely the same statute to which Mr. Dershowitz implies within the video.
H/T Cornell Univ. Law School & Emptywheel (Marcy Wheeler; a link to follow within my original post down thread)
Section 793(d)__(q.v.)
18 U.S. Code § 793 – Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/793
Wow, yeah – that type of insinuation (he said Glenn Greenwald is far more deserving of the Justice Department’s characterization of a “co-conspirator” than James Rosen) is completely uncalled for and irresponsible without evidence. I look forward to you pointing out his knee-jerk reaction to the audience.
Glenn, I’m sure you’re doing your research on his debate tactics, but for those that haven’t view it, here is the Gellman-Hayden discussion: http://www.c-span.org/video/?318674-1/debate-nsa-privacy-laws
What I picked up from the debate was that Hayden was more than willing to discuss the section 215 program than the FAA 702/EO 12333 elements, which are much more significant, deal with WAY more data, and have looser controls.
In his defense, Hayden made some good points, but is essentially pushing for the status quo. He does a good job of painting the NSA’s actions as reasonable and warranted by the public and can use up a lot of time with a long-winded, technocratic approach that bombards you with detail and paints an overly rosy picture of oversight and compliance, while ignoring or downplaying actual compliance issues and the lack of adequate oversight by the Congressional Committees. He is pretty even-tempered, and will not act belligerent like that assclown Stewart Baker, who debated Daniel Ellsberg.
Anyways, should be a good one, best luck Glenn!
What’s the word on Alexis Ohanian?
So “business” and “economics” as usual is viewed as more important and politically balanced as human rights. That certainly is the ethos of the political class in the US. Israel has learned well from their big buddy, the good ol’ USofA.
Oh for an edit function…”more important and politically balanced THAN human rights. Sigh.
That unconditional supporters of Israel feel the need to go to these lengths to “protect” Israel reflects just how weak their arguments are. They’re too cowardly to fight on a level playing field.
Just an Idea. Limit the word Troll please… It should be flagged as “needing moderation” and enter the cue with other posts that are delayed.
Concern Clown
Govenment Chicken
http://www.klfm967.co.uk/blogs/news/why-i-have-banned-the-word-troll-from-my-newsroom/
Reached my quota.
Inside Bob ;-)
The observant reader will note the word nominated for limitation or banishment (as a poorly conceived synonym for posters whose viewpoints can’t be countenanced) is argumentatively deployed exclusively here by the board’s progressive leftists plus one “former libertarian.”
Label almost rhymes with peril. ?
his impenetrable eyes and inscrutable countenance give little away.
Can we find suitable comments-thread analogies for Crunchy Frog and Dead Parrot? We still see a lot of that kind of PR these days.
Interesting plug, Glenn, thanks for posting. As always, please try not to let the swarms of trolls and screaming opposition discourage you too much. It just means you’re doing your job well!
On the topic of the article, I think the Israeli state profits immensely from the vast and manufactured ambiguity that exists between the concepts of Israel as a state, Judaism as a religion, and Jews as an ethnicity. We are told that Israel is a secular state, but with a Jewish character. We are told that Judaism is a religion, but it is also a “people”.
These distinctions are pernicious and confuse the issue. But at its core, the assertion that being opposed to a state’s actions is somehow “bigoted” is extremely dangerous.
The solution is extremely simple: we all recognise that what is going on is opposition to policies, not people or beliefs. The Israeli state desperately wants to stop people from making that distinction, because as long as they can keep the issue confused with notions of Judaism and Jewishness, they can continue to profit politically from the Holocaust.
EXCELLENT OBSERVATION.
“The solution is extremely simple: we all recognise that what is going on is opposition to policies, not people or beliefs.”
Yes, if we know anything about Israel-Palestine issues, it is that solutions are simple.
Query: When it is said (by Palestinians and others) that Israel can never be recognized as a Jewish homeland, does that constitute opposition to a policy, a people or a belief?
You said: “Yes, if we know anything about Israel-Palestine issues, it is that solutions are simple” – lol, is that sarcasm I detect? You’re muddying the issue. I wasn’t saying that the solution TO THE WHOLE ISRAEL-PALESTINE CONFLICT is simple.
I was saying that the issue of whether or not bigotry and anti-semitism is an appropriate concept to lean on when discussing opposition to Israeli actions in Palestine is very simple. And it is a simple issue, with a simple answer, as above.
As to your query, the answer is also very simple. The belief that Israel should not be recognised as a “Jewish homeland” is in no way indicative of opposition to the Jewish people generally, or to the ability of Jewish people to believe in their religion. It is a statement in opposition to the actions of the Israeli state.
If someone were to state that Jews should be eradicated, or that Jews are more likely to commit human rights abuses BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWISH, then yes, this would be bigotry. But very few people are saying that, especially on American campuses.
If anti-Jewish bigotry is evidenced only when people openly advocate genocide of Jews or state directly that Jews are inherently crueler than gentiles, then, by your standards, virtually no bigoted statements are ever made about Jews nowadays. Which is great, I guess.
In light of the historical Jewish relationship with Palestine, the centuries of persecution outside Palestine, and the millions of Jews currently living in Palestine, I find present-day opposition to the recognition of any Jewish homeland in Palestine to be troubling. I’m not saying it is necessarily bigotry (in many cases, I’m sure it is not), but neither do I view it as “simple.”
To your first statement: Yes, virtually no bigoted statements about Jews are made nowadays. Anti-semitism is more or less a thing of the past in the developed world (and especially in America), which is what we were talking about. The centuries of persecution you reference were almost always accompanied by very easy-to-detect and open bigotry.
To your second point: present-day opposition to the recognition of any Jewish homeland is a political stance, much like opposition to inheritance tax. I find the latter to be very troubling, but I think the question of whether or not this political stance constitutes “anti-rich bigotry” is very simple. It’s not. The ramifications of the argument are surely complex.
There are most definitely many, many arabs in the middle east who are powerfully anti-semitic, and who dearly wish death on the Jewish people. These people usually don’t take pains to hide their hatred. But that’s not what we’re talking about here. We’re talking about American universities.
Ah,but the solution is very simple;Treat others as you wish to be treated.WTF?
A suggestion: if those who are frustrated with the pace of the releases could resist the urge to claim that that pace is tied to the “fact” that GG is “evil,” “treasonous,” “monstrous,” “greedy,” “unforgivable,” “a “traitor” (all actual words used in various threads, your point might resonate.
Is there anyone who thinks that resorting to the most inflammatory language possible is going to convince anyone of anything? It’s amazing to see smart posters defending those claims on the grounds that it’s about the messenger. Sorry, no. When the messenger makes claims that assume the very worst, are rude, obnoxious, over-the-top, and veer toward outright slander and libel the message gets lost.
Congratulations for The BOBs Award nomination.
For us it was a great joy to receive the Best Weblog in Spanish Award :
http://mundoporlibre.com/2010/06/entrega-de-los-premios-bobs-2010.html
Greetings and good luck.
Asun and Ricardo
I’m having trouble understanding what your not comprehending about the situation.
r1 ydna went from half of the smallest continent majority 500 years ago to a 5.5 continent “majority” today. They want to wrap their “democracy”(r1b majority rules) around the rest of the world.
OK?
They did it with non-stop genocides against everybody using government.
Sticking what’s left of the entire Jewish population in a tiny piece of dangerous land and all of their “intelligence” in the west while targeting with it and instigating the entire j haplogroup and its supporting culture for genocide is the only reason for the entire event.
It’s just that simple.
They think your just advertising their stolen intelligence apparatus to the world right before their “final straw” false flag terrorist attack. They claim it gives them the right to immediately “lock everyone on earth in a cage” forever.
Israel’s population is tiny and smart, its entire country can “turn on a dime” in one second. Any major power plus Israel equals the worlds most powerful military. Russia and/or China could instantly offer the Jews a perfect security.
Mona makes an important point that often gets lost in these discussions that is worth routinely dragging to the top of the thread:
Anti-Israelism, eh? Bigotry against a country? Rather than bigotry against an ideology, Zionist-Aggressives have jumped all the way to bigotry against an entire country. I guess that solves the problem that not all Israelis, never mind all of the Jewish faith/heritage, necessarily agree that the country that is Israel is a victim of unreasonable or irrational sentiment. It’s no longer the individual holder of an ideology or belief, it’s an entire country independent of its citizens. It’s not anti-communism, anti-fascism…it’s anti-Israelism. I have to admit, it aligns nicely with those who want to charge that criticizing the US amounts to anti-Americanism, but so far, to my knowledge, no one has been willing to call that a genuine form of bigotry.
Linguistic decline and confusion always seems to accompany the end of political/economic/cultural systems!
Actually, this terminology has a proud history, and as Noam Chomsky argues below, is only disparaged by a very narrow group of misguided individuals.
Chomsky is exactly right. An excellent case can be made that it is those who are critical of bad policy who perform the most valuable service to their nations. When the impulse to criticize is linked to an effort to redress the wrongdoing, it’s in aid of the most central tenets of democracy: the idea that the government is for and by the people. This utter rot that being a “good citizen” means parroting back the worst cant and prejudice is crippling at best because it speaks to stagnation, and, as we’ve seen in Israel and the US, outright dangerous when it becomes the justification for violence.
Few in Israel have done more for that nation’s reputation than someone like David Grossman, who lost his son to that on-going conflict, yet stands every Friday night with fellow peace activists–Palestinian and Jewish–to protest the current state of affairs.
Here is part of his acceptance speech for the German Peace Prize:
Chomsky doesn’t even understand that democracy and liberty are not synonymous. That “democratic” is casually used by everyone from official stakeholders in the GDR and the DPRK to the DCCC, as well as The Intercept’s strident left, is not mere coincidence.
Indeed. And it’s as true in speech forums as in, say, ballot initiatives.
“Democracy and liberty are often used today as synonyms, but they are not; indeed, there is an inevitable tension between them. Democracy means that people ought to have a meaningful say in the decisions that affect their lives … Liberty, on the other hand, means that even in a democracy, the majority cannot be allowed to rule everything, that people have rights — are born with rights — that no majority should be able to take away.”
—Ira Glasser, Visions of Liberty: The Bill of Rights for All Americans (1991)
@coram nobis
“Liberty, on the other hand, means that even in a democracy, the majority cannot be allowed to rule everything, that people have rights — are born with rights — that no majority should be able to take away.”
Redefining liberty to mean morality, or more accurately–one person’s version of morality, seems rather religious in its pomposity.
If we use this definition of liberty, the US has no liberty at all because everything in the law and constitution is up for grabs. There is nothing that exists above democracy in this country.
With my own religious pomposity I will define Liberty as the idea that Democracy is above Morality–especially individual morality.
One problem with morality is that we confuse certainty with righteousness.
There can be no righteousness without doubt.
Democracy is the celebration of doubt.
@ tlnc: who redefined liberty anyway? See Madison (Federalist No. 51, for instance) or John Stuart Mill: ” … the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. Over himself, over his own mind and body, the individual is sovereign.”
@coram nobis
” … the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. Over himself, over his own mind and body, the individual is sovereign.”
I will certainly agree with the general sentiment of this quote–except for the “civilized community” bit. That is is one hell of a loophole. You could justify slavery or exterminate a people with an exemption like that. This is probably not the best quote for that reason alone. But I’m not against laws that prevent organ sales (kidneys not church) or selling oneself into slavery.
Back to the original point, I’m not proposing that these moral propositions should be beyond the reach of democracy because Liberty demands it or that we are born with rights that exist beyond the construct of human morality.
Certainty never needs the opinion of others, much less their consent.
They aren’t synonymous (and in this passage, which I was addressing, ) Chomsky doesn’t say they are, but there is a vital relationship between them. “Democracy” without the liberty to enact it, is just a word. We live in a moment where there is a pretense of freedom without the reality. We are free to “choose” in elections, but only between two parties whose policies look, with each passing day, identical. We’re “free” to protest an illegal war in our millions, but the war happens as if we’d never gathered or voiced our protest.
As Chomsky noted, those who embrace full-on dissent are labeled “anti-American” or “anti-Israeli” (a charge often leveled at Grossman) in the attempt to do away with even the pretense of choice. The Soviets’ favorite stratagem was to proceed immediately from that label to the one that dissenters were “insane.” From there, it was a short trip to the Gulags. Liberty is the life’s blood of democracy.
Sorry that was from MM.
There are myriad examples of this;Self haters,deniers,homophobes etc.Has anyone ever met someone who denied that many many many people died in CCs? The Jews who say Israel is wrong on issues are castigated as self haters.And the homophobia angle;More hyperbole from people who need others validation for their lifestyle.All corrupt and misplaced BS,and from the same perps.
Abuminah’s is a much-needed voice that dissents from what has long been a highly controlled pro Zionist narrative. I saw it even on my college campus (in the west) several years ago. When a movement’s biggest threat is people becoming more informed with true information, there is something fundamentally wrong with that movement — especially when its promoters are focused on silencing dissent.
I just ordered the book and look forward to reading it.
LOL. Do all countries get to coin such terms? It mostly doesn’t work. The US is probably the only country that can pull it off to some extent, but it’s quickly losing its ability to do so.
Looking forward to reading some more high-quality significant NSA stories… Your High integrity, thoroughness and fairness is very much appreciated… Your approach is refreshing and should not ever be compromised…
Let’s give David Foster the last word.
“The really important kind of freedom involves attention, and awareness, and discipline, and effort, and being able truly to care about other people and to sacrifice for them, over and over, in myriad petty little unsexy ways, every day. That is real freedom. The alternative is unconsciousness …
“It is about simple awareness – awareness of what is so real and essential, so hidden in plain sight all around us, that we have to keep reminding ourselves, over and over…”
We are on this Planet to Learn, To Move forward,
To do anything else is USELESS!!!
We have the Ability to Create in our Minds
Beyond Our Present Reality!!!
The Bride Before the Wedding
In the ignominy of forced scarcity there is one thing you will never see
The bride before the wedding.
Outside the canopy help smoke free while guest and party can only agree with
The bride before the wedding.
The obscurity of purity, shotgun white as parody, what we had to explain this pregnancy?
The bride before the wedding.
Some seek pomp and pageantry, others seek the Justice and the Peace.
RSVP early. Tender your dowery. The bar is cash, the band R&B.
Using far more force than needed, she is held down by the father and we all unveil…
The bride before the wedding.
The checkpoints system in the occupied territories illustrates very well everything the Israelis do. Not once in mainstream media we read about the complex system of obstacles implemented in occupied Palestine. It is worth doing a quick search and learning about Israeli checkpoints nightmare inflicted on the locals.
What we are learning from this article is that the Israelis have created in practice a checkpoints system in universities. Bumps and humps for professors who dare criticize Israel.
Let’s not forget the checkpoints system in mainstream media. Again, we find the same thing, those who criticize Israel face either a compulsory apology or losing their job.
Gee .. Even going near Dead-sea salt vendors seem like a checkpoint interrogation.
There’s a poster with a Betty Crocker gravitar who’s currently staked out 22 posts, comprising 14% of the 160 comments in her threadjacked page thus far.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zo4Y0TxW41g
Tell her to grow up?
Larchmont, I agree with you.
Does she think she is the gawddamned Hall Monitor?
She can deem someone a “Troll”, and that is the final word on the matter?
Horseshit.
Troll is as troll does.
And by their works ye shall know them.
Mona has no actual power. If you disagree with her opinions then you are perfectly free to challenge then as you just did.
In all the confusion and carry ons , in all the ructions and happen ons
It is remiss of me not to state in terms most formal:
Congratulations to Glenn Greenwald for his success in his chosen career, journalism.
His latest explanations go a long way to my understanding of his approach and means,
That he sees a greater effect on the affect of the masses from books and movies is one now i see differently than the image I held before. . No man is an island.and the death of any man touches me. and the death of innocent Yeman women, child, children, babes and old people touches me. It touches me with a hard heavy handed hack. It eats at my soul.
I wish all NSA documents published now and quickly so that these murders might cease.Fuck you and your check with the murderers before you publish! shit. Do the fuckers over and stop being their friend.
I am sorry Mr Greenwald that your leisure hastens my need, for action now. Be an activist Mr Greenwald publish now, and act and be an activist and stop murders.
Or take forty years to release the world’s greatest trove of secrets.
I said from the beginning, this was a said from the beginning, said from the beginning, said from, the beginning.
Ans so it was ordained. Never to change never to become something other. It was stated from the beginning.
And so, it was so.
Considering possible motives ranging from geopolitical greed to true faith, Glenn, Israel’s victimization claim is similar to the Christian-right claiming OUR country’s growing equal protections and rights for same-sex couples (or the struggles to protect family planning) are somehow a bigotry against their “religious freedoms.” For those buying the pretend mandate to hate and sociopathically discriminate as some god-directed moral imperative, which also too-conveniently excuses any personal responsibility, it clearly exhibits the circular self-serving rationalization seen in severe psychotic delusions.
“Any means are acceptable – because the ends were directed by my god…”
To those motivated by greed, well — those faithful are just “suckers.”
You have a pathological view of natural law.
You don’t get to make the rules. And you’re not allowed to authoritarianly bend a sovereign creation to your will.
You don’t know the first fucking thing about personal responsibility.
Nate’s far better at trolling and far more intelligent – than you. He doesn’t jump up as a volunteer to take every offer of low-hanging fruit…
You’ve received your last reply, one can catch ‘sucker” in any ol’ polluted water.
Yes, and larchmont is literally an insane troll, who rants about Satanist and Illuminati plots. And how Hitler was a “leftist,” and all evil people everywhere and in every time were leftists.
Derp.
Oh you’re too kind…
Seriously.
I suspect few of the truly annoying here are who / what they claim and several even collect salary just to be harsh critics and jerk-offs. How anyone does that for money and doessn’t feel like a complete waste of resources and skin is beyond me. And though you’re someone I personally find exceptional here and not at all annoying, I also suspect you look little like the Bettie Page avatar you display. Still, you’re arguments are — stimulating…
Sorry, “your” arguments. I don’t do a lot of proof reading this late…
a 2nd literally insane person. Literary insanity?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_MGKoRdHgQ
Jewish propagandist is nothing if not clever, now planning to equate vocalizing the inhuman crimes of Zionist as “Anti-Israelism” where before vocalizing the crimes of Israel has been equated with anti-semitism:
“. . .the unwillingness of administrators to treat anti-Israelism in the same manner as they treat other forms of bigotry.”
Google ‘Urban Moving Systems” Where did this Dominik Suter guy go ?
And what’s with this ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoAD8HlrLZg
I would suggest you be more careful. The problem is not “Jewish” propagandists, but rather, Zionist propagandists.
Many Jews oppose Zionist propaganda, and many Zionist propagandists are Christians and non-Jewish atheists.
Well,all Zionist propagandists aren’t Jewish,but I bet the ones that aren’t are paid by Jewish Zionists.
I am pleased that you tossed another tidbit to the readers of The Intercept. Many of us have been severely malnourished of late, and I have even heard rumors of cannibalism. Several appear to be missing, although hopefully the rescue teams will find them intact.
It is disappointing to learn that in American universities, “the most dangerous are the humanities and social sciences, alleged hotbeds of radicalism and leftism” Like many people, the only thing I knew about American universities was their football and basketball programs. This wholesome facade apparently serves to mask a darker, subversive institution apparently dedicated to teaching students to think, which of course cannot be tolerated. I would only hope that when they dismantle the universities, they will somehow find a way to save the sports teams.
‘Cute’ ?
Inside Job ?
http://www.ae911truth.org/
Don’t worry, we’ll get around to investigating that real soon now. Maybe even before The Intercept formally launches.
Inside Job ? You didn’t answer.
It’s good form to hold a trial before decreeing the verdict. Of course, expediency sometimes dictates otherwise, but it’s generally better to follow protocol and put on a good show.
It’s pretty challenging to teach somebody to think in four years. Does academia believe six might do it?
You seem pretty confident they can’t, and you’re probably right. Still, we can’t afford to take the chance – somebody might figure out a way using stem cells or something. If students did learn to think, it would undermine the efforts of years of indoctrination.
It is very strange that Muslims have come to find themselves in the middle of the Holocaust debate when they actually did not participate in it. By the same token, Christians who actually were involved in killing the Jews have adroitly managed to pass the blame to the Muslims. In all of history, the only Muslim who has killed masses of population was Ghenghiz Khan, and that too many centuries back. It is Christians who have been responsible for mass genocides that continues even to this day, but they always seem to occupy the seat of high morality. I am really not fond of Muslims at all, but I find this dichotomy glaring.
Speaking of “mass genocides that continues even today” look no further than the native populations of Palestine. Also, one could argue the “new” form of genocide is economic; Zionists are running full steam in this tactic, generally speaking, against the world’s population.
I understand physics and I’ve googled ‘Urban Moving Systems’ – Inside Job General Hercules ?
One of my favourite books is the Travels of Marco Polo (with footnotes mostly in latin and french) written by
Rustichello da Pisa, also known as Rusticiano and Rustigielo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rustichello_da_Pisa of history,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genghis_Khan
You got a cite for him being what you say? He Genghis asked Polo to send back from the pope Christian Philosophers and learned script scholars to seek the truth. The concept of him being a fervent Muslim is not one I find in my studies.
First reply gone bye bye
The Tartar culture, the Mongol warriors were the greatest army of all time. One third of the world he conquered.
One of my favourite books as a child was The Travels Of Marco Polo. By Rustichello da Pisa,( also known as Rusticiano and Rustigielo (fl. late 13th century), was an Italian romance writer best known for cowriting Marco Polo’s autobiography while they were in prison together in Genoa. A native Pisan, he may have been captured by the Genoese at the Battle of Meloria in 1284, amid a conflict between the Republic of Genoa and Pisa. When Polo was imprisoned around 1298, perhaps after a clash between Genoa and Venice (according to tradition the Battle of Curzola[1]), he dictated his tales of travel to Rustichello, and together they turned it into the book known as The Travels of Marco Polo..)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genghis_Khan
As far as i know he was not a devout Muslim as you seem to say. He asked Polo to get the Pope to send him Christian scholars to debate theosophy.
Not really sure what you’re on about . How about this Sterling guy with the Clippers ?
Inside job ?
It’s inside jobs all the way down.
Not really sure what you’re on about
Just That the khan (the king) was of no one religion but understood and meditated on many. I though it wrong to call him Muslim.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_vilification
Clipping away with blunt clippers.
Now blacks are just fine for jumping hoops but you do not wont them on Instantgram photos.
Senile?Dementia? Racist? what does it matter
he is just one of way too many people
that group think a race a culture, a religion or a view to a hate.
Step out of line and you end up in jail..
Toe the line.
The new world order is toe the line.
Toe the line get it straight.
Toe the line .
A devout Muslim. not.
Gen eral: you may well be right but that is because Muslims too busy kililing each other
@General Hercules: “I am really not fond of Muslims at all, … ”
—————
That’s nice!
Thank you for the generalization, by the way.
He might list 4 reasons why he’s not fond if asked.
‘Muslims’ is already a generalization which I tried to point out you yourself had used in a similar way.
‘Muslims’ own stupidities’. As part reason for state of affairs in West bank. While I don’t wholly disagree….What ever banner a Palestinian might fight occupation under, the David and Goliath picture I replied with could lead anyone in to deep religious turmoil and to take up arms…. However so could the picture alone make men kill one another.
Killing in the name of god at the same time as natural/human instinctive defense. To take away Palestinian faith in god would really leave them with little else. I simply cannot imagine a stupidity greater than a boy V a tank.
I’m usually very careful, but I posted that in a hurry as someone was breathing down my neck to hurry up and go to a family event.
As soon as I posted it, I realized my mistake, but there’s no edit function, something I’ve seen on other websites, which allow editing of a comment for several minutes after it’s been submitted.
What I meant was ‘Many Muslims’.
Thanks for catching my mistake.
Thanks for reply, no worries. Hard not to notice with your ‘name’, it is quite eye catching. As I said previously nice to have you here. I may have been a bit loud earlier, I think the tobacco may have been whacky.
Rowan
Good Grief. Pierre didn’t pay $250 for recycled Palestine/Israel jousting, did he? OR, as most suspect, that $250 mil was the price of owning those documents?
Thanks Sibel!
what drivel.
I see that none of my comments will be aired. May god forgive you. Grace Heitkamp, Lonsdale, MN
There are a good half dozen up (perhaps you wrote more?) and it seems a bit over the top to ask for “God’s forgiveness” even if they’d been taken down (though I’m no fan of modding). But if you scroll through you’ll see quite a few of your posts on this thread; it’s just terribly difficult to keep track of where they land and when (there seems to be quite a lag sometimes, but at other times they go right through). Let’s hope the often promised fixes are coming through soon.
CTRL F is her friend.
History is repeating.
http://thejuicemedia.com/season-2/
Norman Finkelstein
and juice rap news
Israel V Palestine
http://bodyontheline.wordpress.com/tag/adolf-hitler/
snip.
http://thejuicemedia.com/season-2/
Nakba.
Not a snack-bar, Crocodile dundee,
Nakba.
It means catastrophe- Antisemitism
It is far from truth. We are far from home,
As Zionism is far from Jews.
i
isn’t this fun? amusement for amusement’s sake. i brought up 9-11 and building number 7 because no LIBERAL has ever explained how that particular building fell into itself on 9-11 in LESS THAN 7 SECOND! We can talk Palestine forever but until we address what happened on 9-11 until the cows come home. we have to face up to what we did.
For whistle blowing context look no further than Susan Lindauer.
Not able to make the red hyper links but someone dubbed by me DGTP3T (initials, two planes 3 towers) didn’t last long here at the intercept (although I think he just gave up).
Inside Rob ;-)
@ Mona,
Please reply if you prefer, for resolution. The following comment is hidden within the nesting below.
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/04/27/excerpt-battle-justice-palestine/#comment-28973
Mr. Greenwald wrote:
{Quote: It doesn’t matter whether you requested a reply or not. I don’t let sleazy innuendo like what you spewed go unanswered if I have the time to address it.” Unquote}
I simply will not reply to any person here—regardless of status—who replies in such a manner. I will ask other commenters here who are interested in the ‘debate’ to read my original post and then read Mr. Greenwald’s replies wherein he implied that I wanted him to release documents without proper vetting, or in bulk, and other spurious insinuations. I never stated or implied any such actions. I stated, “Please publish NSA documents as you have pledged to do here, as the often-stated main purpose of this site—to date.”
That means, to wit, he and others have *pledged* to post NSA document articles here at TI, which still entails all the vetting, confidentiality, et cetera. I did not state that he or others should abandon those critical precautions at TI and/or publish a bulk release elsewhere. Anyone can go back and read my previous posts since the start of TI or at The Guardian wherein I championed the steady, careful—but continuous—posting of those NSA documents at TI and elsewhere.
Mr. Greenwald, others, and I know that he would be indicted on espionage charges—post haste—if he released all the information in bulk and without redactions; as well he should be if he did such an irresponsible act. To imply that I would suggest such actions is repugnant and exhibits Mr. Greenwald’s exceptionally flawed suppositional musing in this specific instance.
FWIW, I understood what you were asking and didn’t construe it as demanding a document dump. Glenn apparently did.
Its worth a great deal as you reposted it.. I don’t assume that apparent rather a dump is the only alternative to the way it is being dumped at present.
If the writer we are all to trust is calling what is assumed or otherwise spewing innuendo it doesn’t do his credibility any favors. GG seems to be someone who has found himself in the lime light and continued to act as normal. Style is important, If someone needs to talked to like this let Kitt do it.
If you remove the spewing sentences it would look better but be less entertaining?
Pearl clutching alert…! I could be wrong, keep being adversarial (but stray from the fearless path)?
I will now seek to modify my own language. “Dumped at present” far too strong, sorry… @Kitt you were right, nothing wrong with corn on the cob remarks either. Cough… Cough.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arH3od_2xIg
Glenn is now like an old prize fighter. When I was a kid the former middleweight boxing champion of Canada used to shop there. One day dad told me never to throw a punch at Coby, even if I was only fooling around. I asked why. He replied, “Because he will knock you out. Reflexes die hard.”.
I think it’s kind of like that with Glenn, he is now attacked every single minute of every day, 24/7 and it’s been like that for some time now.
I have always appreciated your comments. He just took you the wrong way.
*correction
When I was a kid, the former middleweight boxing champion of Canada used to shop at my dad’s store….
Interesting comparison—one never knows when they post comments here, what parallels await them within others’ replies. Thanks.
I also understood what you were asking and appreciated your points (I wasn’t referring to you, but to some of the other outrageous posts on this threads when I mentioned civil discourse).
Understood. Thank you.
“Mr. Greenwald, others, and I know that he would be indicted on espionage charges—post haste—if he released all the information in bulk and without redactions; as well he should be if he did such an irresponsible act. To imply that I would suggest such actions is repugnant and exhibits Mr. Greenwald’s exceptionally flawed suppositional musing in this specific instance.”
You are responding to a reflexive straw man argument Nemo_Est_Insula; this is a classic Glenn Greenwald tactic. Don’t allow yourself to be convinced that Glenn Greenwald actually believes that you were suggesting a “data dump” of the Snowden documents. Rather, understand that such straw men are shrewdly calculated to cut short any legitimate discussion concerning the means by which the Snowden “revelations” are coming to light. When it comes to maximizing the profit potential of the Snowden documents. the mere suggestion of viable alternatives is strictly verboten.
I too recognized the straw man fallacy and was surprised given Mr. Greenwald’s extensive training in Philosophy and Law—evidence that gifted, intelligent, educated persons are not immune to occasional bouts of the logical fallacy syndrome.
Incidentally, commenter Benjamin Franklin also appears to have thought of the reply as a straw man: “ I’m sorry but that’s a Burning-Man sized bit of straw there. Where are the promised ‘blockbuster’ stories?”
Nonetheless, the active debate is important.
Seems like a book worth checking out, I need to buff up on my Israel/Palestine history. On the other hand, my book backlog is getting obscene!
On a total side note: Glenn said that he omitted the author’s significant amount of footnotes for this excerpt, which reminded me of just how important it is for nonfiction authors to use end/footnotes in their work. if any of you read Ghost Wars by Steve Coll, it is the premier example of how it should be done. I read the Snowden Files a few months back and although I really enjoyed it, it lacked FN and could have really used them for some claims and information. Also, these days with so much bullshit and misinformation out there, it is so critical.
Anyways, I digress. any of you catch last week’s episode of Vice on HBO with those crazy Christian groups devoutly supporting Israel? It really makes you worry about some people…
Nate, while you’re ‘buffing up.’ – Maybe check out -‘Gravity and Resistance’. Seventh grade physics.
Up ?
Down?
That type of thing. It’s worth buffing up on.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoAD8HlrLZg
Nice segue into your 9/11 truther spiel. Very subtle. I watched your video anyways and could only shake my head in disappointment. If you are going to make a conspiratorial argument, at least have the courtesy to pick a video with a little more depth and analysis than saying “this smoke did this when it should have done that!!” Nearly 15 years have passed in which your ilk has had the opportunity to make a compelling argument. They seemingly have all been rebuffed or ignored out of idiocy (hologram planes come to mind).
You’re in the wrong forum for this type of stuff…
I realize that I am not responding to the word from on high, but for god’s sake – when is someone going to address the fact that 9-11 seems to have been an inside job – the rest of the world knows this and we look like idiots and or dare I say ” GOOD GERMANS”. Sincerely, Grace Heitkamp, Lonsdale, MN
Grace;There are very few here that believe the official story of 9-11.I feel your pain.
From the remarks of Daniel Sieradski, presented in 2010 in several Brooklyn synagogues:
1906:
“Startling reports of the condition and future of Russia’s 6,000,000 Jews….”
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F50A16FF3A5A12738DDDAC0A94DB405B868CF1D3
1921:
_”BEGS AMERICA SAVE 6,000,000 IN RUSSIA”_
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F60A12FA3C551A738DDDA90A94DF405B818EF1D3
1938:
_”PERSECUTED JEWS SEEN ON INCREASE; Dr. Kahn Returns With Report of Rise in Europe of Those Deprived of Rights 6,000,000 VICTIMS NOTED 25,000 Refugees Said to Be in Need–Rumania Menaces 800,000 With Anti-Semitism”_
http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F10D17FB385415768FDDA00894D9405B888FF1D3
1943:
“Of these 6,000,000 Jews almost a third have already been….”
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ30DEqxVkcWDL2Y_6B_q_dZ6VScgpaArhoyF-MycmGJrb4Kstp
What’s the fixation, before Nuremberg, with 6,000,000? Elsewhere, others report 236 references to 6,000,000 Jews prior to the Nuremberg Trial announcement.
4 link record.. and I bet they surfaced immediately… Tell Wilhelmina at once, the possibilities are endless!
After the hiatus in welcoming the new man, I was hoping for a look at real -politics – like, how did Building Number Seven fall into its own footprint in less than 7 seconds. Silly me. Grace Heitkamp, Lonsdale, MN.
I just read an excerpt from Henry Giroux’s new book, Neoliberalism’s War on Higher Education, which looks more broadly at the political situation on campuses. It is a great companion to this. Here is the excerpt:
http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/23306-neoliberalisms-war-on-democracy
Nice to see everybody.
Giroux is a pseudointellectual who writes like an scholar-industry striver.
The cognitively insecure progressive left also forgets it demands generous funding for the mechanism that awards these career-academic epaulettes. Then complains when they’re competitively used the way the left shortsightedly designed them.
What? If you think there is any funding for left-leaning scholars on campuses to “demand,” you are out of your mind. Your bizarre comment infers that such scholars have a degree of power in the new corporatized campus, which they most certainly do not. If you actually read Giroux, or any of the many critics of the shifting campus economy (majority of professors are adjuncts and job-insecure) or the attacks from the right on campus speech or the teaching of critical thinking, you would know where the power resides on campuses. You make it clear that you have no idea what you are talking about.
PI, just FYI, you are replying to a crapflooding troll who, under myriad monikers, has long plastered Glenn’s space with inanity about his many bogeymen: “leftists,” Satanists, the Illuminati & etc.
He’s a nutbar. No one serious takes him seriously.
Good to know, thanks.
If the Insect didn’t know she was arguing with someone she’s corresponded with for at least five years now, you both deserve each other.
Gr8 points all. Inside Job ?
http://www.state.nj.us/lps/ca/press/storage.htm
Yikes. I just realized ‘free fall collapse speed through undamaged steel structure is impossible. ”How-Day-Dodee – Cotton Picker’ (Is this America?)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoAD8HlrLZg
And I’ve googled ‘Urban Moving Sytems’
He regurgitates everything in the progressive left canon while failing to understand that the academic industry that the left worships plays on progressives’ smart-people insecurities. Sells them down the river with massive debts and escalates graduate school degree wars that impoverish them even more. While failing to win them the basic jobs they covet with like-minded graduates now in hiring roles who want to pay forward their own hazing by credential.
Giroux can’t even avoid dressing up the progressive’s ever-present, obligatory ‘voting against their own interests':
“This makes it all the simpler for neoliberalism to convince people to remain attached to a set of ideologies, values, modes of governance, and policies that generate massive suffering and hardships.”
Adjuncts and Assistants are paying for SEIU members’ personal land ownership, and for the electricity bills on flat screen appointed luxury towers, and should respect that.
I cannot keep up with commenters who keep changing their names. I have no idea who you are.
Right, it’s PI’s fault that she did not id you after reading a few comments.
How’s the mania going?
Bill, chastened weasels skulk silently around the branches waiting until they think they can make readers think a conversation everyone can follow in its entirety means something else.
Dr. Giroux is awesome! I saw him on Bill Moyers and have read a couple of his articles. Guess I probably should check this one out.
Bill Moyers is a sedative for the left. He’s another establishment, Rhodes-Milner Round Table type that makes progressives think they’re getting knowledge from a higher browed source than the NYT.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuu1vPtnBYw
I see. Only certain people get to dialogue. What a disappointment.
http://vigilantcitizen.com/pics-of-the-month/symbolic-pics-month-0414/
Inside Job ?
Looks like this site censors basic facts and has to try and figure out who they work for – the ‘truth’ ? Be damned.
Where are the missing comments and links like this ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoAD8HlrLZg
It’s a conspiracy, Binky. Clearly an inside job.
No answer. (Will take that one as an “undecided”)
i love you, binky! until we admit the obvious we are lost. xx g.
I agree that 911 was false flag operation. But that is not the topic here. It probably never will be.
Do you really think that anyone can post anything anytime as often as they like?
You’ll never convince anyone of anything by kicking in their door and shouting at them 20 times a day.
@larchmont
The free fall collapse of three highrise steel framed towers in a single day is, alone, proof of a false flag attack. The cutter charges to which you link are interesting components of the controlled demolition hypothesis. What baffles me however, is that the seismic evidence does not confirm the calculated force of the total mass of the buildings collapsing at free fall speed (Known Mass x Acceleration = Force); far less seismic activity was recorded then free fall equations suggest. As the force and acceleration of the collapse were both measured, the only variable in the equation is the known mass of the building prior to collapse. If the seismic evidence is to be believed then we must account for the missing mass. The only researcher who has addressed this issue head on is Dr Judy Wood:
“Dr. Judy Wood earned a Ph.D. Degree from Virginia Tech and is a former professor of mechanical engineering. She has research expertise in experimental stress analysis, structural mechanics, deformation analysis, materials characterization and materials engineering science. Her research has involved testing materials, including complex-material systems, in the area of photomechanics, or the use of optical and image-analysis methods to determine physical properties of materials and measure how materials respond to forces placed on them. Her area of expertise involves interferometry.”
http://www.drjudywood.com/
Dr Wood argues that is necessary to fully integrate all of the the observable evidence into a logically consistent hypothesis, else the truth of that which occurred may elude us. She further argues that traditional laws of physics cannot adequately explain a number of observable phenomena that have been consciously discarded as inconvenient anomalies by advocates of the controlled demolition hypothesis. Whether you ultimately agree with her views, or not, her arguments are worthy of consideration.
I have been trying to make sense of this craziness. I would ask all of you, as a 911 truther, how did BUILDING NUMBER SEVEN come down in it’s own footprint in under 7 seconds? I seriously want an answer. Sincerely, Grace Heitkamp, Lonsdale, MN
gracey, i’m with ya’, but -like chomsky- a LOT of libs do NOT want to touch the nine one one tarbaby with a ten foot pole… far too many evil implications that -EVEN WITH nsa ‘revelations’ (in quotes because if you’ve been labeled as tin-foil beanie person, you have suspected this crap for decades, GIVEN PAST HIS STORY)- they dare not broach… w-a-y too scary…
there will be no reckoning; BOTH heads of the hydra-headed korporate money party will see to that…
art guerrilla
aka ann archy
eof
The problem with Ali Abunimah is that he supports a one-state solution in the short term. This is an apolitical solution. What is the roadmap for this? There’s no framework, no roadmap, nothing. Two states based on international law CAN be accomplished, because there’s a framework and a roadmap. That framework is international law, which the US and Israel have been BLOCKING (http://unbisnet.un.org:8080/ipac20/ipac.jsp?session=135H92019847H.17430&menu=search&aspect=power&npp=50&ipp=20&spp=20&profile=voting&ri=&index=.VM&term=&matchopt=0|0&oper=AND&x=12&y=8&aspect=power&index=.VW&term=peaceful+settlement+of+the+question+of++palestine&matchopt=0|0&oper=AND&index=.AD&term=&matchopt=0|0&oper=AND&index=BIB&term=&matchopt=0|0&ultype=&uloper=%3D&ullimit=&ultype=&uloper=%3D&ullimit=&sort=). The framework and roadmap is described very well by Norman Finkelstein and Mouin Rabbani (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dg5FAd84Dy8).
Glenn – personally, I’m having problems with ‘free-fall collapse speed through undamaged steel structure’ – gravity – resistance – that type of thing. But, to get more to the point of your story – the ‘Urban Moving System’ boys. (Seems a little fishy)
I’m not very good with political matters, but what do the experts here think of Uri Avnery?
Here’s his latest: http://www.avnery-news.co.il/english/index.html
Many thanks,
Mr. Avery is certainly correct that language – semantics — matters.
Thanks, Mona.
Take care,
So provocative and spot-on it’s worth quoting a few lines:
I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the finest writers when addressing the dangers of totalitarianism start with the corruption of language. Atwood did it in “The Handmaid’s Tale,” Gilman in “Herland,” Tepper in “The Gate to Women’s Country,” and “Orwell in “Animal Farm” and “1984.” They did it precisely because Stalin, Mussolini, Hitler,Trujillo, Pol Pot and others did.
Orwell knew that Big Brother was a face on the wall; the real crimes were the torturing of language, embodied in “double-speak, double-think, double-good” etc. Because that elasticity with lingo led to this:
the complete bastardization of truth.
Our current verbal abuses: “extraordinary rendition, precision targeting, enhanced interrogation,” and even “WOT” are lifted from old handbooks. Deadly ones.
Really excellent and true. Have you read Orwell’s treatise “Politics and the English Language”? Control of the language is one of the deep state’s main methods of social control. Social control is one of the 3 main missions of the NSA according to Snowden.
Sorry, forgot the link: http://bit.ly/1hJdOnR
Thanks Bill. Can’t wait to read it; my husband was reading it a few weeks ago (He’s on an all-things Orwell kick,) and was sharing gems with me.
I just want to say that this may be the best set of comments and arguments since TI started. Hardly any trolling or crapflooding, cogent fact based arguments, lots of participation from Emanuel Glennstein, et al, it’s been just great.
Thanks!
Crag Summers propagandizes on the glories of Zionism and states:
Where to begin. I know, let’s start with the Deputy Speaker of the Knesset, Moshe Feiglin, and look at some Haaretz quotes of this scumbag published in an article entitled: Feiglin, his cronies are fascists by any definition. Here’s the fascist Deputy Speaker:
But oh, Feiglin is also racist in the sense that he finds Palestinians and black Africans to be inferior to white Jews:
And this leader of the Knesset makes no bones about his admiration for — wait for it — Adolph Hitler:
Why, a proper justice system and public order are the wonderful fruits of fascism, and the Deputy Speaker of the Knesset is down with that!
Link: http://www.haaretz.com/mobile/yossi-sarid-feiglin-his-cronies-are-fascists-by-any-definition-1.259197
I have much, much more evidence of the fascism of the State of Israel, Craig. Just ask.
Kerry is now saying Israel could become an apartheid state if it doesn’t come up with a peace plan soon…. But Carter already identified it as such. Indeed, the apartheid applies not only to Palestinians but to Israelis of a darker complexion….
Sterling: “You go to Israel, the blacks are just treated like dogs.”
GF: “So, do you have to treat them like that too?”
Sterling: “The white Jews, there’s white Jews and black Jews. Do you understand?”
GF: “And are the black Jews less than the white Jews?”
Sterling: “A hundred percent, fifty, a hundred percent”
GF: “And is that right?”
Sterling: “It isn’t a question–we don’t evaluate what’s right and wrong, we live in a society. We live in a culture. We have to live within that culture.”
http://deadspin.com/exclusive-the-extended-donald-sterling-tape-1568291249
Glen – welcome back, and thank you for the article; particularly offering us a view from what most would consider a rather benign partner in this SIGINT data gathering madness.
So essentially, the Norwegian NIS has become a SIGINT drug pusher who is both a mule and a user for the NSA SIGINT addicts. The “masters,” aka the NSA data-whores, demand both more “intel-product” in their quest for additional “needles” in the ever-growing haystacks of SIGINT data that the NSA creates themselves.
This ensures that the data-stream which feeds the NSA intelligence machine never runs out of fuel – and thus in their compulsion, the NSA SIGINT addicts will always have a reason to exist.
In other words, the NSA is now completely addicted to this abhorrent behavior, and it’s time for an intervention.
From Wikipedia, re: Compulsion to Addiction:
“Compulsive behaviors are repetitious and are performed in an effort to reduce or control tension resulting from inner feelings often generated by anxiety, stress, or insecurity. Compulsive behaviors are often ritualistic but typically do not escalate and the compulsions are not carried out in a secretive and deceitful manner. Addictive behavior sets itself apart in that it inevitably escalates to include deceit, cover-ups, and detachment from a sense of self.
“Every form of addiction is bad, no matter whether the narcotic be alcohol, morphine or idealism.”
– C.G. Jung
Best regards, Sillyputty
“We don’t have permanent editorial office space yet. When we do, we will have a postal address.” -John Cook, April 14
Where there’s blogging of it at all, I’m seeing “January” this, “February” that, March….
https://firstlook.org/blog
People with an Internet 1.0 benefactor willing to support a publishing enterprise up to a point with a so-called potential quarter of a billion dollar budget of support, are usually raring to go a little sooner, and with a less. than. perfect. physical plant.
On a slightly related note, refusing to publish on the web until a site is just perfect is called arrogance. Not that I’m willing to buy that’s the situation here; somehow I don’t think this spur off the main line is necessarily about prime optimization.
Argument from doubt is a logical fallacy. So you fail again.
An element of creeping truth emerges from the official US govet narrative:
“If there’s no two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict soon, Israel risks becoming “an apartheid state,” Secretary of State John Kerry told a room of influential world leaders in a closed-door meeting Friday.”
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/04/27/exclusive-kerry-warns-israel-could-become-an-apartheid-state.html
Which infers a rather uncomfortable question for US policy makers (and associated lobbies): If Israel is becoming (or is) an apartheid state will the US continue to fund and lend diplomatic support to said apartheid state? Oh the dilemma.
Risks *becoming? Well, it’s at least gratifying to see the Administration uttering the A-word.
The “Israel First” lobbies’s heads start exploding in 5. 4. 3. 2. 1……
The shitstrorm will be epic.
Oh, the lobby’s shitstorm has commenced. Just saw this on Twitter:
Glenn –
I read Nemo’s post and your replies to him and some others. I feel somewhat better about TI and all but only somewhat.
I’m glad you will be making the documents available online. I won’t be buying the book. It doesn’t feel right to me.
Glad you had a vacation, but what about the other writers? There were NO stories, – no NSA stories (or any stores other than John Cooks’ post) since April 4. I know you keep saying these things take time, but no one could manage to get even one story out in all that time?
The shutdown on comments made me feel ill-at-ease as well. There was a great interchange going on. I suggest that, especially if you good folks are only gong to publish sporadically, starting an online forum where WE could carry on “the conversation.”
Sorry for the typo and the one grammatical error…
In that same time period, how many NSA stories did the NYT, Washington Post and the Guardian – 3 of the biggest media outlets in the world, all with tens of thousands of Snowden documents – publish?
That’s a real question. Please answer.
I suppose we could work 19 hours a day instead of 15 hours a day for 10 straight months – maybe skip lunch and refuse to take any calls from friends and family – but that wouldn’t actually do much to speed up the pace. These documents are extremely complicated; they take reporting and consultation with experts to do; and I’m not going to just churn out a bunch of crap without regard to whether it’s all solid just to keep people entertained.
Moreover, not all the reporting is done here. Laura has published articles in both der Spiegel and the NYT, while just today I have a new article on Norway/NSA cooperation in the Oslo daily Dagbladet.
I should also add that the pace of NSA stories here at the Intercept is at least equal to, and probably faster than, what it was at the Guardian. I should also add that the pace here is definitely faster than what both the WashPost and the NYT have done.
And those are far, far, far larger media outlets than we are, unburdened by the simultaneous need to build the outlet as the reporting is done.
unburdened by the need you point out but burdened none the less with many things the intercept is not…
The Oslo Daily Dagbladet. This is becoming surreal. .. People are visiting this site for information and some of it is buried in a paper that most here will have never heard of.
Surreal? Dagbladet deserves as much attention as your favorite site. You haven’t ever heard of it, so what? It’s not burying the information, it’s bringing it to the attention of a lot of people who haven’t heard of the Intercept and will be reading it just because it’s in the Dagbladet.
Of course the Dagbladet deserves attention. From all that was posted by GG this was (for me) the most important bit…. something I need to know. Norway is not in any way insignificant and in fact as a country incredibly dear to me personally.
‘Surreal’ after all that just been said about NSA stories relating to huge media outlets and a months silence here to find out about a new article co authored by GG at the intercept (where he also writes) with a little link ‘buried’ in the comments section.
That I am may be unaware of the Daily Dagbladet after all that was said just prior is as you point out not important however I was referring to the concept of reaching as wide an audience as possible.
This news deserves a post/blog/Despatch like the above one so that it doesn’t go unnoticed making all GG’s reporting easily accessible from the intercept.
So long as it is discussed I am happy.
Favorite site:
http://www.bostondynamics.com
Hi Glenn –
Thanks for replying. You mentioned reporting was also done elsewhere. Just don’t forget TI, ok?
As for your challenge. I don’t know if this will satisfy your criteria, but in a very short time searching, I did find this, NYT on 4/12:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/13/us/politics/obama-lets-nsa-exploit-some-internet-flaws-officials-say.html?_r=0
And again I suggest you and the team seriously consider instituting a readers’ forum. Thanks!
That’s not a story based on Snowden documents.
We are actively working on several significant NSA stories, including one which I believe to be easily among the biggest, if not the biggest, story yet.
Thanks for these updates Glenn. They’re temporarily satisfying my craving. I suspect some of the agitation/frustration coming your & TI’s way is emblematic of how much many of us have come to depend on you for our revelatory-news fix. You’ve hooked us; I suppose that makes you somewhat responsible for our jonesing.
LAST NIGHT ON LINK WE WATCHED YOU SPEAK BEFORE CAIR IN 2012. MASTERFUL AND WITHOUT NOTES! I AM PLEASED WITH YOUR COMMENTS HERE. THANKS FOR CLARIFYING THE STATUS NUNC AND QUO ANTE.
Glen, welcome back, and thank you for the article; particularly offering us a view from what most would consider a rather benign partner in this SIGINT gathering madness.
So essentially, the Norwegian NIS has become a SIGINT drug pusher who is both a mule and a user for the NSA SIGINT addicts. The “masters,” aka the NSA data-whores, demand both more “intel-product” in their quest for additional “needles” in the ever-growing haystacks of SIGINT data that the NSA creates themselves.
This ensures that the data-stream which feeds the NSA intelligence machine never runs out of fuel – and thus in their compulsion, the NSA SIGINT addicts will always have a reason to exist.
In other words, the NSA is now completely addicted to this abhorrent behavior, and it’s time for an intervention.
From Wikipedia, re: compulsion to addiction:
“Compulsive behaviors are repetitious and are performed in an effort to reduce or control tension resulting from inner feelings often generated by anxiety, stress, or insecurity. Compulsive behaviors are often ritualistic but typically do not escalate and the compulsions are not carried out in a secretive and deceitful manner. Addictive behavior sets itself apart in that it inevitably escalates to include deceit, cover-ups, and detachment from a sense of self.
““Every form of addiction is bad, no matter whether the narcotic be alcohol, morphine or idealism.”
– C.G. Jung
Best regards, Sillyputty
So much has been said on the subject that there’s nothing of worth for me to add. But as a victim of apartheid of yesteryear, and now, a victim of extreme remote electromagnetic and scalar weapons systems torture operated under classified programs, although details of historic sagas and events serve me well, the global view is just as critically important.
Thus, on a global take, every nation and every people have a right to a history and legacy that their own actions write, and a right to be remembered and forever associated with those actions in the annals of history. At the end of the day, the decision, expressed through action, is about what a nation or people believes they prefer and can afford, between the weight of those actions that sits heavier and more painful each day on a nation’s or people’s shoulders in a burden that no generation can easily erase, or a weight of their actions that happily carries the nation or a people high upon its shoulders, to be celebrated and honoured. So let it be with Israel and Palestine.
US is trying to start World War III in the Ukraine and Syria; Glenn and company have all the answers we NEED to know to prove this, but he’s going to let it happen, let billions die, so he can make some money on a rollout of his fancy new magazine.
Pathetic. Snowden trusted the wrong people.
Why weren’t they arrested when they entered the United States recently, to claim their Pulitzer PRIZE for “reporting” on 1.5 million documents, of which we have seen only a handful.
Glenn, Laura; when you find the time to stop reaping profits and awards, we’d like to stop the United States from destroying the planet’s ability to support human life.
If you cannot handle the responsibility of reporting the Snowden documents, might I suggest you give them back or hand them over to someone who doesn’t think making money should be part of the game.
In the meantime, YOU, Glenn, Laura, and all who work at the Intercept – you are traitors to humanity. History will be your judge. You and the rest of the media can hide the truth now, but the truth will always come out, and you will forever be remembered for selling out the world so you could make a few bucks.
I’m sure all your adoring fans will jump in to protect you from me. Where will they be when history shows you sold us out…
Right here, archived, with every word they typed, every indication they folded and bought into your sell-out hook, line, and sinker.
You are an evil man Glenn. You’re not much better Laura.
PROVE ME WRONG!
You are literally insane. You announce to me that you induce people to commit felonies and stalk you because of how sly you are about getting into their minds, and now the above.
Please take your hallucinations elsewhere.
Mona, I think that post clarifies it (and perhaps that person should be left to stew in his/her own juices).
is, indeed, hallucinatory.
If only this were true…if GG and Laura were traitors to humanity, we could all rest easy knowing we were safe.
Mona – with all respect; the commenter may be many things, but “literally insane” is not one of them.
That their frustration over the process may be the case – yet in the end, their heart is in the right place.
“Stop killing messengers that are for the most part headed in the same direction. Instead, oppose all those that desire the status-quo.”
~ Sillyputty
Up until this post, I took your view Sillyputty, but sorry…declaring Glenn and Laura as the worst “evil” unleashed on mankind and “traitors” is dangerously over-the-top. There are ways to voice frustration with the pace of the releases that sound sane and reasoned. That is not one of them.
There’s that word again…
Had I not been skim reading might have picked up on it… The Evil doers net is closing in on the dangerously over the top…
Fucking Bollox, don’t engage in ganging up on people you muppet. Are you an internet virgin? Feed some trolls have some Lols you belong on twitter.
Only Joking ;-)
;-(
;-)
Calling an individual demented, and suggesting insanity and then saying what amounts to fuck off is uncaring if your classification be true. From reading Mikes posts he is definitely angry therefor insulting him (even if you feel insulted) is a bad idea. Mental illness afflicts many people in society please read and digest this:
http://www.mind.org.uk/information-support/types-of-mental-health-problems/statistics-and-facts-about-mental-health/how-common-are-mental-health-problems/
@Mike I hope you are fine. Sometimes when Ill it is hard to realize that fact without help. At the very least please involve a friend if you are feeling unwell or contact a doctor, I only say this as you have mentioned brain damage which may need the people involved in your care to know the extent of your involvement here (at the intercept) and accompanying stress involved (which appears to me to be quite high).
Hope that was not patronizing… I’ve had my fair share of experience with mental health and had a very close friend who died that had brain damage for the last 10 years of his life. He was a member of Headway – the brain injury association (don’t know what US equivalent is).
I just realized (if that is your name) his initials were the same by coincidence: M.W.
Michael Walsh. A truly great man whom I loved with all my heart.
Rowan
“…..US is trying to start World War III in the Ukraine and Syria; Glenn and company have all the answers we NEED to know to prove this, but he’s going to let it happen, let billions die, so he can make some money on a rollout of his fancy new magazine…..”
Russia annexes a part of a sovereign nation and the US is trying to start WWIII? I suppose the US was at fault in Syria as well? And of course, it was the US that “induced” the Soviets to invade Afghanistan? And everyone knows that Genghis Khan was a CIA agent……..
US/Nato has been encircling Russia and trying to oust Putin. Of course. It’s what the Empire does. Someday you might even figure this out. Ukraine is part of Russia and has been for centuries. It’s like Hawaii for America.
“…..Ukraine is part of Russia and has been for centuries. It’s like Hawaii for America…..”
I would say that Russia has a far longer history with Ukraine than the US with Hawaii, but the Soviet….er Russian government (in an apparent moment of weakness) signed the Budapest Agreement in 1994 recognizing the sovereignty of Ukraine. I worked with a guy who’s dad was from Ukraine. He said he would really get pissed if I called him Russian. Maybe he was just one of those Nazis that Putin feared had taken over the government. That’s probably why the Russians in Crimea were in such fear – and the main reason Putin invaded. I used to believe everything Putin said until Snowden pointed out he was probably lying about Russian surveillance at home. Who would have thought?
Fifteen countries were freed after the collapse of the USSR – and most beat a path to NATO and the EU (and who could blame them?). None the less, the US has had no desire to oust Putin (although it would certainly be good for the democratic world). I’ve never heard any mention of regime change at all. Maybe you have some evidence to the contrary?
Ukraine is most definitely not a part of Russia, Bill. You cannot criticize the “empire” while promoting the reestablishment of another – and throwing the people of Ukraine under the bus at the same time.
Thanks.
There is a responsibility to humanity that goes along with journalism. Unfortunately many larger media outlets have forgotten that responsibility as they continually shout fire in theater houses – even if there has never been any indication of smoke; or made issue of non-issue; or and implied fact without basis.
I have yet to hear anyone here at Intercept shout “fire” on this site or anywhere else. That said, the responsibility includes verifying facts regardless of their original source and assuring that the ramifications of said release are, at least, considered.
Mr. Greenwald and Ms Poitras, along with all the writers here (and some not here) have done no less than any responsible journalist and have actually done much more than most by considering each story, its relevance and its importance as well as accuracy.
The fact that they have become the pariah of governments testifies to that fact – holding none sacrosanct and protecting no one other than their source and the truth. They have taken the brunt of the acting out in fear by scared people, hostile administrations caught being less than transparent and accountable, and agencies angry at being found out. That’s part of the job of truth-telling.
To imply Mr. Greenwald, Ms. Poitras, or other journalists here has been “slow to release” or sat on information for some nefarious reason is, at best, delusion,
For the edification of new arrivals, I’m reposting one of
Glenn’s comments from below.
—————————————————————————-
We’ve published numerous NSA documents in the short two-plus months we’ve existed. You can find them all here. The last ones were published on April 4, not March 15 as you claimed.
I’m going to take as much time as I need to make sure our reporting is correct and we know that what we’re writing is true, and that we can tell as complete of a story as we can. Our source didn’t want mass publication of documents and I’m going to honor that agreement no matter how many people don’t like it or no matter how many sleazy accusations people like you hurl about my motives.
So you think I should publish all the documents without withholding any?
So you think I should violate my agreement I made with my source?
You think I should publish the names of the NSA’s surveillance targets and their raw communications – just violate their privacy and dump everything the NSA collected and said about them (assuming I have that)?
How about the names of undercover agents and low-level employees overseas (assuming I have that?) Should I just dump all that, too?
How about documents that could help other governments subject their citizens to more invasive and oppressive spying? Too bad for them? Just dump that, too?
Or should I instead go through the documents carefully, make sure I understand them, do added reporting on them, and only publish that which fits in with my source’s framework and that which wouldn’t harm innocent people?
Books – and films – are incredibly important vehicles for reaching large numbers of people, which is my goal. I realize there is this tawdry anti-intellectual belief among some that books (and films) are somehow Proof of Impurity, but I consider them vital for affecting public opinion and make no apologies whatsoever for having written them, for having used my platform as an opportunity for the anti-surveillance case I’ve been making for 8 years to get as wide of a circulation as possible, and to have a place to report stories that need lots of space and context to maximize their impact.
Journalists use books to break stories all the time, just as people frequently use books to make arguments and advance their case. I’m not interested in proving my Purity by being as ineffective as possible. I have a responsibility to my source, to these materials, and to my political values to make sure they get as wide a hearing as they can. And that’s what I’m going to do.
All of the new documents used in the book are going to be placed online, where everyone can see them for free – so your accusation is utterly false.
It doesn’t matter whether you requested a reply or not. I don’t let sleazy innuendo like what you spewed go unanswered if I have the time to address it.
I’m sorry but that’s a Burning-Man sized bit of straw there. Where are the promised ‘blockbuster’ stories?
It’s a simple question that directly impinges on the credibility of this venture. Suspicions have been suspended for a time, but reckoning should be near. Ebay funders have buyer’s remorse? Give us something soon, or there will be no joy in Mudville.
“All the documents used in the book are GOING to be placed online, where everyone CAN see them for free…”
If that is a quote from Glenn, it PROVES that he SOLD US OUT. Sure, you can see the NSA documents, but you have to buy his book first. Then, when enough idiots have made his publisher rich and he gets another fat check, you can see the documents.
I’m sorry, but that is absolutely pathetic. This is NOT a money-making venture.
I officially state my intent that if Edward Snowden as the ability to modify his agreement, that I will volunteer in any capacity to assist in the reporting of these documents. My ideal task would be to go through the documents; but I will also volunteer to monitor the reporting to ensure that it is done diligently. And, here’s the thing folks, I will do it for FREE. I don’t care about awards, I don’t care about money. Give me a million in cash and I’ll burn it on camera, and that is a promise I will keep to ANYONE who offers.
I am differently motivated than Glenn, your NSA saviour. I don’t want to be well known, I don’t want to be famous. I want to be REMEMBERED…as in, after I’m dead and my tasks are done. I don’t need fame and fortune, because fame and fortune, my friends, is why we are here in the first place.
Even if I don’t take on this task, I suggest that those who do so, do so voluntarily, or for no more than expenses and a modest stipend. Take money out of the equation Glenn. Prove me wrong. Prove that you are doing this because it is the right thing.
And yes, this is really pissing me off. If you don’t understand why, it’s because you are not in possession of all of the facts (or more likely, ANY of them.)
Thanks for reposting this Mona….Glenn sold us out alright.
You demented troll, get thee gone!
I see that this one is finally showing his true colours. Good for him!
Why does taking, literally – 1 second – to scroll past some comments here affect you so much?
Are you that instantaneously insecure in your beliefs? And must you call names to invoke your ire, like children on the playground?
To quote others here: Grow up.
That I may or may not disagree with what is said here is a given – that I grow weary that those who pretend to uphold Glen Greenwald’s penchant for allowing others to speak and yet paradoxically seek to demean those who do so is ongoing.
For goodness sake – use the faculties that you were given and either exercise the intellectual and/or the actual muscles in your minds and fingers to bypass those you disagree with.
If they are indeed “trolls” – I’ll let Glenn decide; it’s his “space” after all.
This constant typological arms race is counterproductive – to say the least.
Regards, Sillyputty
Silly..
Please follow the same advise that you continually regurgitate, or politely, fuk’off..
Aloha, suave
Embrace The Troll
SillyPutty: your preferred stasi rats*t stain’s narratives can be found at: BBC, CNN, CBS, NBC, ABC, Fox, WaPo, NTY, The Economist, Time Magazine, Newsweek, ad nauseum.
Should be enough to make ya happy. Go there. Knock yourself out.
Risable? Get thee to a nunnery. Kicking while down, bad darts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFRnD1ob810
What a sad little man you are.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYqllpnyWrY
Books, everybody’s got books. Glenn Greenwald has books. Noam Chomsky has books. Peter Gomes had books. Stephen Jay Gould had books–Gould may still be authoring books. Millie has books. Hillary Clinton has books.
Books are a dime a dozen.
_”Sen. Markey and Rep. Jeffries Introduce Legislation To Examine and Prevent the Promotion of Hate Crimes and Hate Speech in Media“_
According to the Senator, “The Hate Crime Reporting Act of 2014 (S.2219) would create an updated comprehensive report examining the role of the Internet and other telecommunications in encouraging hate crimes based on gender, race, religion, ethnicity, or sexual orientation and create recommendations to address such crimes.”
http://www.markey.senate.gov/news/press-releases/-sen-markey-and-rep-jeffries-introduce-legislation-to-examine-and-prevent-the-promotion-of-hate-crimes-and-hate-speech-in-media
Predictably, to this day news of this is yet to be found anywhere in the progressive leftist, Bill of Rights averse New York Times or Boston Globe.
Zionism has become so hysterically defensive (and insidiously covert as a PR campaign in faraway America) that the only rational response to it at this point is deep suspicion, in my opinion. Leave US academia out of this, please, Zionists! If your arguments have merit, let them stand scrutiny by critical thinkers.
Please leave us weak Americans alone Israel. You intimidate us. You threaten us. You run our foreign policy. You are brutes……
‘Hysterically defensive,’ as I said.
Note I said none of what you projected.
“……Leave US academia out of this, please, Zionists!…..”
You are begging the Zionists to leave academia alone as if they have a stranglehold on our universities. First of all, they have every right to promote their cause (short of violence) – just like the Palestinians. That’s free speech. Second of all, you are assuming Ali Abunimah has no agenda at all. According to Wikipedia:
“……Ali Hasan Abunimah (Arabic: ??? ??? ??? ?????, Levantine Arabic: [??ali ??asan abu?n??me]) (born December 29, 1971) is a Palestinian-American journalist who has been described as “the leading American proponent of a one-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.”[1]….”
He supports the dissolution of the one Jewish state in the world. He might be sincere and feel that is the only equitable solution which is OK with me. But, none the less, he has an agenda. He writes:
“……It follows, then, that any questioning of Zionism’s political claims or the policies or practices of Israel necessary to maintain “its own definition as a Jewish state” is “bigotry.” This would mean by extension that calling for full and equal rights for Palestinian citizens of Israel is bigotry; calling for Palestinian refugees to be allowed to exercise their right of return is bigotry; criticizing the Jewish National Fund’s openly discriminatory land allocation policies is bigotry; and so on….”
Because Jews constitute a small minority world-wide, it is by necessity – to maintain a Jewish majority state – that they favor Jewish immigrants and land allocation. That is an absolute necessity. Ali understands that. Calling for the “right of return” might seem right, but he opposes a Jewish majority state anyway. As a Palestinian American, that might be understandable, but he still has an agenda. So you should question his motives and his classic reference to Jews having a stranglehold on our universities….and by extension, our foreign policy, banks, financial system etc.
Read the following, very carefully. You said, to me:
“You are begging the Zionists to leave academia alone as if they have a stranglehold on our universities.”
Saying ‘please’ is not begging.
Saying ‘please’ is being polite. Let this sink in, for authoritarianism and its insecurity are prone to resist this lesson.
The ‘as if they have a stranglehold on our universities’ is a concoction of your own (apparently for some reason retarded) mental process.
Your “and by extension, our foreign policy, banks, financial system etc” is also irrelevant to anything but your own fancy about my viewpoint. I said nothing of the sort, and do not agree with it. But this article illuminates the parameters within which debate about Zionism is controlled before it even happens in US academia – and this is the observed restriction to which I personally take offense.
Conflating Israel with Zionism is actually offensive on your part. I would never do such a thing, but you (in your incoherent miasma of defensiveness) apparently do.
“Zionism is a 19th century idea of blood and soil nationalism that is inherently fascist………Are you willing to mourn the understandable mistake of political Zionism as the solution to our historic suffering, a forgivable (if and when we acknowledge the mistake) but all the same catastrophic wrong turn?….”
I certainly appreciate your point of view (and your propaganda). Are you willing to be so dedicated to freeing Tibet, or making the Turks return half of what they stole from Armenia after WWI? Your home to native Americans while you return to Europe? The answer on all accounts is a resounding NO.
Jews have spilled too much blood to give up their homeland now. A one state solution isn’t even a possibility – probably for many decades if not centuries. You are asking the Jews to do what you would never consider – nor would any other country. Russia has one of the largest countries on earth, but they wanted more (Ukraine). And it’s pathetic to use “fascist” to describe Israel, Mona. There is nothing fascist about returning to your ancestral homeland which contains the holiest site in Judaism – Jerusalem. You might have some credibility if not for your single-minded denunciation of the Jewish state without any apparent regard for anything else. Can you far left wing people understand why you have zero credibility?
Critical Zionist thinkers?ha ha.The most prejudiced people on this earth.
“…….Critical Zionist thinkers?ha ha.The most prejudiced people on this earth……”
I think you just exposed yourself…..ya nitwit.
It is disheartening to find the Intercept part of the problem, rather than any schooled solution
Glenn; You are dallying around the perimeter and the frustration is mounting. Where are the ‘blockbuster’ revelations? Has Ebay expressed buyer’s remorse?
Mr. Greenwald
In response to what I noted was your single-minded and very selective approach to human rights, civil liberties and civil rights, you referenced me to this quote by Chomski:
“……”My own concern is primarily the terror and violence carried out by my own state, for two reasons. For one thing, because it happens to be the larger component of international violence. But also for a much more important reason than that; namely, I can do something about it. So even if the U.S. was responsible for 2 percent of the violence in the world instead of the majority of it, it would be that 2 percent I would be primarily responsible for. And that is a simple ethical judgment. That is, the ethical value of one’s actions depends on their anticipated and predictable consequences. It is very easy to denounce the atrocities of someone else. That has about as much ethical value as denouncing atrocities that took place in the 18th century.”…..”
So apparently, there are exceptions – which just happen to be Israel. This, of course, is one of the defining qualities of the political fringe left – obsession with the US and Israel. Everyone else, including the Ukrainians, Syrians and the Iranian people who led the Green Revolution are simply of no interest to you – human rights be damned. Well, I really should qualify that. You seem to have taken an interest in Russian Television gushing over one commentator’s condemnation of the illegal Russian invasion. By doing so you threw under the bus the (really) courageous journalists that have been beaten or murdered by the mafia state run by a former KGB agent, Putin.
This article by Ali Abunimah promotes Jewish conspiracy theories like the Jews intimidate and run American Universities and Congress (along with the usual theories promoted by the far left like “them Jews” run our foreign policy and were behind the Iraq invasion, and so on).
Being that you are a “true journalist”, I assume you will publish a counter article to this one by Ali. Don’t worry, Mr. Greenwald. I won’t hold my breath.
No, Israel is not an exception. The US government supports Israel financially, diplomatically, militarily and politically. Therefore, to discuss Israel is to discuss US Government policy. That’s especially true of the excerpt posted here: which is the way in which political debate is being restricted on CAMPUSES IN THE UNITED STATES.
Come on now Glenn. The current Ukrainian government is a US Allie as well. And didn’t we sponsor a coup in the Russian “area of influence”? Anything in the pipeline about the Ukrainian subversion of our universities?
Now, now, Craig. You clearly did not read the article.These are Mr. Abunimah’s first two paragaphs, my emphasis for your remediation:
See all that stuff about America, Craig? About attempts to limit what may be said at American universities? That’s about speech on U.S. campuses, and is all entirely within the Chomsky remit that Glenn often invokes.
Other sites have reproduced excerpts of Mr. Abunimah’s book that are not directly about the U.S., such as on the economic impact on Gaza as a result of rancid Israeli policies: http://www.truth-out.org/progressivepicks/item/23004-the-economic-destruction-of-gaza
But Glenn’s post is about the attempts by the Israel lobby to stifle speech on AMERICAN campuses.
“……But Glenn’s post is about the attempts by the Israel lobby to stifle speech on AMERICAN campuses…..”
Campus Mona? Are these the same professors that led the anti war movement in Vietnam? Are our modern Professors really just big panzees, Mona? Besides, this is really piddly compared to “them Jews” running our foreign policy and the Republican Party. I’m sure Ali has some important information on that as well – but nothing you already don’t know.
Yes Craig, American campuses. That’s what Glenn’s posting of Mr. Abunimah’s work is about.
And about this:
Given that my father was one of the premier got-to faculty in the University of Wisconsin system to denounce the anti-war movement as Communist, I wouldn’t really know. But I imagine that, like my father, they are (mostly) deceased.
University of Wisconsin? Great Basketball team this year. Fair enough, Mona Thanks.
Well,those anti Vietnam Jewish professors knew it was 8000 miles from their chosen land,and knew there was no connection that could be compared to their land grab,so it was an easy call to be anti Vietnam war.Human rights badge to cover their blackhearts.Oh,yeah,they originated the Amerika line to disparage the goyim leadership with Nazi connections,and laughable,when every Zionist rag in America backed our disasterous excursion into SE Asia.And the Demoncrats are fully supportive of starting WW3 over Ukraine also,as both parties are Zioslaves.
Yea, we are all Zioslaves. Of course, at Stormfront, Jews aren’t your only target.
The VC never had their own lobby group so there is that.
I do think it’s very important that campuses remain the stronghold of vigorous debate, and that means allowing everyone a voice. Attempts to control what is “allowed” to be heard and seen are misguided at best, and part of this dangerous trend of suppressing free speech. We have nothing to fear more than censorship.
This sounds like a fascinating book; I’ll be looking for it. Thanks Glenn and hope the work goes well…
There are libraries to borrow it from, and bookstores where you can skim it.
Wow.
Just wow.
It is pretty rare that I am speechless and mystified.
The most positive comment I can make is that The Intercept clearly needs direction.
Excerpt from The Battle for Justice in Palestine isn’t an NSA story.
It’s something I posted on my blog. My blogging was always intended to be part of what we do from the start, because I’ve built up a readership and community over 8 years that I wasn’t going to just ignore for months while we built the Intercept. That’s what John Cook explained in the last post: that right now, we’re primarily restricted to NSA reporting and my blogging.
Glenn, you are replying to the crapflooding troll previously parading around as RevCommunete and DisenfranchisedRevCommunete. The guy who saturates your comment space with insight like this:
And:
I’m sure he has every intention of spewing 10% of comments in this thread as above, as well as his notions about Hitler as a leftist, all leftists are evil, Alex Jones is da man, deranged faux Russian clergy are awesome, and on and on.
I call bullshit on The Intercept.
(I agree. Not many comments seem to be making it out)
Comments seem to be showing up now – but i think the LA Clippers may have started the revolution on this ‘affair’ – and GOOD on them.
Why?
Because “good news” like a post and some feedback to reader concerns is only good if you actually desire improvement. If you want the place to fail, then losing something to complain about is a real annoyance.
According to Haaretz, Clippers owner Donald Sterling is on tape defending his racism by comparing it to the worse attitude toward blacks in Israel:
Sterling goes on to deny that his not wanting his girlfriend to bring blacks to Clippers games = racism
http://www.haaretz.com/news/world/1.587665
Repeat;The Zionists are the most prejudiced people on this planet.And hypocrites,as his girlfriend(it his looks that won her,sheesh)is minority.He and Adelson could have a Baron Harkonnen lookalike contest.The soul emerging facially.
There’s one huge piece of the puzzle we should not ignore: Muslims’ own stupidities.
Are any of these stupidities linked to religious belief..? I think you should be more specific because this could be read in many ways.
Religious beliefs and politics, both devoid of higher spiritual consciousness.
For example:
1. Misinterpretation of Islam to harm innocent civilians.
2. The killings of thousands of Palestinians in Jordan. In them, Pakistani soldiers, led by one Zia ul Haq, were criminally involved.
3. Restrictions on the people of Gaza by the Egyptians.
4. Saudi Arabia and UAE competing to build the tallest building in the world instead of helping the Palestinians.
A lot more can be stated, but I usually try not to comment on political matters. The list is fairly long.
“…….Muslims’ own stupidities…..”
Nobody is doing more to rectify their situation in the Middle East than Muslims – and they are paying a high price. There was an op-ed in the New York Times a few years ago by Stanley Fish:
“…….Given that democracy privileges some values — personal mobility, individual entrepreneurialism, tolerance, cosmopolitanism — and downplays others — community, ideological conformity, cultural stability — its attraction will vary with the values a particular society embraces. A society for example that rests on a strong religious foundation may find some democratic practices useful, but it will not be inclined to fight and die for them……”
I wonder if he looks back on that editorial and wonders how he could have been so wrong. I fully believe that this is just the beginning of the Arab Spring – but it will take some time (decades). I think a better description is “incredibly courageous” Muslims.
1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spCVPedh_14
2. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/geneveith/2013/06/religion-and-crime/
If you want people to click on your links it would be very helpful if you were to give them some idea of what it is.
Thanks Glen and others who view the situation of Palestinians objectively, and that has to has to include both inductive and deductive reasoning. Sadly, several of my comments critical of Israel and USA and the American media have been censured.
Anti-Semitism has become a diplomatic passport. Just flash it at Custom and you are home free.
Mr. Greenwald,
Please publish NSA documents as you have pledged to do here, as the often-stated main purpose of this site—to date. J. Cook also stated that NSA-related documents would be published herein while the site was developing and that has not occurred since March 15.* Those NSA documents belong to all U.S. citizens and you are preventing (stonewalling) us from learning the illegal/unconstitutional actions of our government by withholding them. You saved some documents for your book (the ‘cream-of-the crop’?) that you could have published here or given to other journalists to publish instead.
Yes, I have read your excuses; however, I think those are somewhat disingenuous. You are forcing citizens who already own those documents to purchase them again via your book and that is unfair. That is, you are ‘selling’ parts of classified documents to citizens that otherwise could/should have been written within The Intercept or other news outlets as a wholly news/4th Estate function. Conversely, how is forcing me and others to purchase your book to read the otherwise unavailable documents—for which we have already paid—not plausibly interpreted by some as ‘fencing’ those documents?
Please do not reference books by Bernstein/Woodward, Risen et al. as your justification/vindication. I despise what NSA is doing; nevertheless, you are placing personal profit above honest, honorable journalism. I think you are potentially jeopardizing any journalist’s 1st Amendment rights and your apparent greedy actions might well harm Mr. Risen’s valid arguments before the Supreme Court, if not now, then with other journalists in the future.
Regardless of what I have just written, I want you to succeed but I do not want to have to wait for you to write another book—hoping that you will garner another bestseller for yourself—to read documents that belong to all U.S. citizens. You are already most likely making a comfortable income with TI so you cannot use the excuse that you need additional personal funding/spoils to be able to write about NSA documents within TI. Finally, I do not need to read TI to get other news. There exist The Guardian, Democracy Now!, Vox, Fivethirtyeight, and tens—if not hundreds—more that fill that general news bill.
I do not request a reply; however, if you do, please think calmly and carefully before countering anything I have written because your comments will be available to *anyone* who wants to rebut you—herein or elsewhere. You should reflect introspectively about the implications of what you are doing by appearances of peddling NSA documents within a book instead of publishing them within the framework of a fully justified news function now recognized by the courts as a wholly valid 1st Amendment action.
Respectfully submitted as a thought-provoking and introspective-inducing effort by someone who has supported Mr. Greenwald since his days at The Guardian and who has read him since his initial articles at Salon.
*Other TI/NSA articles since March 15 were only related tangentially to Der Spiegel and other news outlet articles.
(Note: I have hesitated with and/or deleted posting this comment since the 3rd comment made by others was posted to Mr. Greenwald’s article today. Since I support Mr. Greenwald, my comment is not an easy rebuttal for me to posit. However, given Mr. Risen’s current legal predicament, we all should reflect on the importance of the 1st Amendment and do nothing to cause those within government to attempt to lessen its effectiveness for journalists and us all).
Classic Concern Trolling with a side of petulant accusation, and just a touch, nay, a tincture of admiration thrown in for authenticity’s sake… Feckin’ awesome! You are something.
Internet bigotry is disdainfully calling posters “trolls”, a form of specieism, akin to racism.
Rather than approach the concerns raised, you deride the posters worthiness to even comment or put questions.
Perhaps more than a dash of authoritarianism in your make up. Military? Law Enforcement? Good on you. Bully Sir, Bully.
Oh for fuck’s sake:
I don’t consider Nemo a troll, but your declaration on the topic is risible.
Fairly classic John Kelly. Anyone that disagrees with him is a troll.
So I’m an internet bully? An Authoritarian? Have a military background? Hilarious. Extrapolate much?
If it quakes like a troll, it may indeed be a troll, there is nothing in his comment to comment on that has not been posited before by other equally transparent small-minded shit-stirrers that latch on to Glenn’s writing in droves like the unimaginative little parasites they are.
Your apparent lack of an irony meter has led you to call me an internet bigot as a critique for mentioning the trolling writing style of the poster above. You must be Authoritarian or have a military background or some such crap. Thank you.
Progressive leftists are the last word in authoritarian. Control, restrict , censor, delete, prevent, seize, redistribute, ban. Are all about authoritarian.
Thank you, Glenn Beck, for your well reasoned comment about progressive leftists. We are so happy to have your input.
“If it quakes like a troll” it may be an earthquake: ) I meant [quacks], of course.
You progressive leftists–when you can form arguments–can’t even accurately name your nemeses. Glenn Beck is an old shock-jock who rails against the libertarian, conservative right. As such he shares the concerns of the clueless left.
Thanks again, dearest Glenn Beck, you are very entertaining.
So where does that leave entirely spurious accusations of “speciesism” and “racism”?
I’m genuinely surprised that you, Nemo, would post such false assertions.
First, the courts have not “recognized” publishing classified documents as a “wholly valid 1st Amendment function.” That issue, in fact, has not been litigated or resolved outside of the prior restraint issue.
Second, journalist also practice journalism in books. There is no legal distinction between journalism published at, say, the Washington Post and that published by a journalist in his/her book. Indeed, many news outlets host in-house publication of books.
Greenwald threatens nothing by publishing a few Snowden documents in his book. Your crisis there is contrived.
@ Mona,
Since you are an attorney, please consider accessing and reading the following “publically available indictment” and weighing in on any implications it might have regarding current or future disclosures of classified information written within any journalist’s book. That is, if the Supreme Court hears Mr. Risen’s case and/or if the court would even consider that specific legal question within the context of Mr. Risen’s appearance before the court, regarding the disclosure of his source.
{Quote: “While not commenting on the specific issues in the Sterling case, MacMahon said the publicly available indictment shows the government claims that the sale of Risen’s book, which is alleged to include classified information worth in excess of $1 million, was a crime.” End Quote}
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/02/05/criminal-charges-possible-if-journalists-sold-access-to-snowden-documents/
The “publicly available indictment” you link to is a Fox News story covering the ranting of Rep. Mike Rogers. He isn’t prosecuting James Risen.
@ Mona,
The sale of the book was a crime?
Mr. Edward MacMahon Jr. “a leading national security defense attorney is representing CIA employee Jeffrey Sterling.” He stated what I previously quoted above within the Fox article. It is customary to post any links to quotes as a citation to verify an authentic quote, which I did. What I am interested in finding (if it exists) is the real document—the indictment—and the section that contains what Mr. MacMahon stated: “the government claims that the sale of Risen’s book, which is alleged to include classified information worth in excess of $1 million, was a crime.”
My interest is to determine if the government considers that Mr. Risen crossed over the line from legal journalistic writings to illegal ‘aider and abettor’ territory by using ill-gotten classified document information within his book. That is, do they think he has gained ‘fruits of a crime’ with his book’s publication? I want to read the direct wording in the original indictment, if that quote/wording exists, just as Mr. MacMahon stated or paraphrased.
Obviously, if the government can prove that such a book’s publication is a crime; the resultant legal precedent would have implications for any other similar books/publications regarding national security, henceforth.
@ Nemo_Est_Insula,
This gets a little confusing since both journalists James Rosen and James Risen appear to be charged under the same statute, although I have not read the Risen indictment that specifies the statue charged.
H/T Ms. Marcy Wheeler @ Emptywheel. i should have known she would likely have the answer; however, I searched there a few days ago and somehow missed her relevant post the first time around.
http://www.emptywheel.net/2013/05/20/first-they-came-for-james-risen/
I made a couple of successful attempts to “think calmly and carefully.” This is what I landed on: ‘What an embarrassment you are to yourself’. Seriously — that succinct and to the point response is all that you deserve
We’ve published numerous NSA documents in the short two-plus months we’ve existed. You can find them all here. The last ones were published on April 4, not March 15 as you claimed.
I’m going to take as much time as I need to make sure our reporting is correct and we know that what we’re writing is true, and that we can tell as complete of a story as we can. Our source didn’t want mass publication of documents and I’m going to honor that agreement no matter how many people don’t like it or no matter how many sleazy accusations people like you hurl about my motives.
So you think I should publish all the documents without withholding any?
So you think I should violate my agreement I made with my source?
You think I should publish the names of the NSA’s surveillance targets and their raw communications – just violate their privacy and dump everything the NSA collected and said about them (assuming I have that)?
How about the names of undercover agents and low-level employees overseas (assuming I have that?) Should I just dump all that, too?
How about documents that could help other governments subject their citizens to more invasive and oppressive spying? Too bad for them? Just dump that, too?
Or should I instead go through the documents carefully, make sure I understand them, do added reporting on them, and only publish that which fits in with my source’s framework and that which wouldn’t harm innocent people?
Books – and films – are incredibly important vehicles for reaching large numbers of people, which is my goal. I realize there is this tawdry anti-intellectual belief among some that books (and films) are somehow Proof of Impurity, but I consider them vital for affecting public opinion and make no apologies whatsoever for having written them, for having used my platform as an opportunity for the anti-surveillance case I’ve been making for 8 years to get as wide of a circulation as possible, and to have a place to report stories that need lots of space and context to maximize their impact.
Journalists use books to break stories all the time, just as people frequently use books to make arguments and advance their case. I’m not interested in proving my Purity by being as ineffective as possible. I have a responsibility to my source, to these materials, and to my political values to make sure they get as wide a hearing as they can. And that’s what I’m going to do.
All of the new documents used in the book are going to be placed online, where everyone can see them for free – so your accusation is utterly false.
It doesn’t matter whether you requested a reply or not. I don’t let sleazy innuendo like what you spewed go unanswered if I have the time to address it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1leDAwjtto
“We’ve published numerous NSA documents in the short two-plus months we’ve existed. You can find them all here. The last ones were published on April 4, not March 15 as you claimed.” – Glenn Greenwald
The Intercept has posted a paltry 24 NSA documents in total. Beyond the fact that this number is a mere fraction of those that have been referenced in news stories since the “Snowden” story broke, it is a pitiful percentage of that which you continue to hoard for profit sake.
“Our source didn’t want mass publication of documents and I’m going to honor that agreement no matter how many people don’t like it or no matter how many sleazy accusations people like you hurl about my motives.” – Glenn Greenwald
Different day, same old lie. You have already admitted that you have no legal obligation to Snowden whatsoever. Snowden handed over the stolen classified documents with the express understanding that professional journalist(s) would have a different idea of that which is newsworthy. The choice of that which is published exclusively resides with the journalists who possess the stolen classified documents.
“So you think I should publish all the documents without withholding any?” – Glenn Greenwald
The ol’ data dump fallback argument. This position is so dishonest and trite that it is hardly worth a response. You have already shared a number of the stolen classified documents with numerous news organizations. The same method of distribution could be applied to an unlimited amount of the documents with identical result. Stop using Snowden as your beard.
“Journalists use books to break stories all the time, just as people frequently use books to make arguments and advance their case. I’m not interested in proving my Purity by being as ineffective as possible. I have a responsibility to my source, to these materials, and to my political values to make sure they get as wide a hearing as they can. And that’s what I’m going to do.” – Glenn Greenwald
I think that I am going to be sick. So, you are not interested in:
1. advancing your career as a journalist in the publication of the Snowden documents?
2. acquiring a profit from participating partners in the shared publication of the documents?
3. acquiring a profit from the publication of a book that contain previously unpublished documents?
4. acquiring profits from other forms of dissemination including film?
There is nothing to prevent you from writing a book, or making a movie, after having shared the entire trove of classified documents with a significant number of professional journalists if you feel that their efficacy proves to be lacking. Likewise, there is nothing to prevent you from redirecting any profits derived from the publication of the “Snowden” documents to a Snowden defense fund.
If perceptions of your “purity” are not an issue, then why do you go to such lengths to obscure the fact that personal ambition for fame and fortune governs your thoughts and actions? When your like-minded, self-interested colleagues stop referring to you as “the conscience of America”, others might be less tempted to point out the obvious fact that your motives and methods are no different from those exhibited by many of the MSM journalists to whom you have chosen to take great exception – absent any perceived ideological differences (political values).
“I don’t let sleazy innuendo like what you spewed go unanswered if I have the time to address it.”
Yes, how dare a reader post an honest opinion on the Intercept website that brazenly takes exception to Glenn Greenwald without regard to the type of group derision that such candor invariably invokes from the faithful?
Thank you Glen, for standing up for the deal you made with your sources. I, and many like me, hope and pray that you do as you have been doing, and that is getting out the important information we all need to know and hear, without, and I repeat, without compromising anyone’s security or safety. Without your commitment to excellence, this will not turn out. Again, thank you and everyone who is working with you to get this story right and straight. If you need my help I will volunteer, but I imagine you have all of the help you need. Kudos Sir!
Thanks, Glenn, for this excellent review. I did not know Abuminah had a new book out so will place an order pronto. And you’re absolutely right, one does not need to agree with everything he has to say to know that he possesses a sterling intellect. He produced a paper in 2011 arguing how realising the One State solution need not result in violence and bloodshed and made highly irrelevant (in my opinion) comparisons with South Africa & N Ireland. However, I continue to read the EI with regularity. If only more mainstream journals/newspapers would air his views too.
Btw, I really miss the debates that used to take place under your articles at the Guardian and the stance you took regarding moderators. I learned almost as much from other commentators as I have from you. Looking forward to getting more involved here and to your debate v Michael Hayden next week. Can’t wait to see you wipe the floor with him! Perhaps you could have a word with the organisers at the Munk Debates and ask them to publish the debate on YouTube for others (who will miss the livestream) to see? It appears that they only allow their members to see these debates, but so many others will benefit from what you have to say.
GOOD LUCK and take care!
The “new McCarthyism” is particularly troubling at a time when tenure for college professors is becoming less and less frequent. Adjunct professors, often working in several different institutions just to make the rent, are particularly vulnerable to the pressure described in the article.
McCarthyism it is, and very dangerous.
Zionists should be more concerned about the actual racism in Israel. For example, these are the views of the Deputy Speaker of the Knesset, Moshe Feiglin:
“There is no Palestinian nation. There is only an Arab-speaking public which has suddenly identified itself as a people, a negative of the Zionist movement, parasites. The fact that they hadn’t done so earlier only serves to prove how inferior they are. The Africans have no nations either. Only Zulus, Tutsis.”
And:
But, Feiglin admits what many Zionists will not, to wit: Zionism is racism:
(Zionism in theory and practice is also predicated on the alleged inferiority of non-Jews, especially Palestinians. Which Feiglin has himself claimed — see above.)
In any event, before Zionists crusade against manufactured bigotry and “anti-Israelism” on U.S. campuses, the should first tend to sweeping their own very racist street.
Good to see you back.
I would need to write my own book to be able to give an accurate report on the American part in this great game of control…
Fortunately there are many who now understand that Israel is first and foremost an American forward position in an area of the world that it wishes to dominate in its entirety. The Israelies enjoy the benefits of being an American State, a protectorate that will be economically supported, and militarially defended just as surely as if it were the front lawn of the The American Presidential Palace, otherwise known as The White House.
With myriad bases throughout the planet, over a thousand and counting, America is positioned to react at any moment to any possibility it’s power and influence may come under attack, whether such be from a military source or a public relations perspective.
Every nation in that area of the world knows this; Russia and China play a similar game with one disadvantage being they were late to the game with the consequent inability to play catch up quickly enough, and their other major disadvantage an inability to match the American perception management machine.
The creation of the Israeli state in 1948 in the center of the Islamic world was an act that was either incredibly foolish, or carefully thought out to create the conditions that exist over 60 years later.
Along with their partners, they created a conflict that has no logical conclusion, a conflict that would require the passing of generations of cultures before a semblance of brotherhood would emerge, and knowing such would be the case, they engineered what we have today. The Israelies and the Palestinians are more alike than brothers and sisters in most families, something that successive American administrations hoped they will never realize, because the moment of it’s occurrence would spell American loss of that particular forward base.
America has been engaged in a long term goal of becoming the only super power on the planet, economically, militarily, and to the extent that it can, it has sought to portray itself as the holder of the moral high ground.
The American Plutocracy, which is what it always was, and is, hiding behind the particular party du jour, didn’t really expect there would ever a real challenge to its dominance. And therein lies Achilles heel.
Information and the ability to spread information is power and in the hands of people back and forth across the planet, information is a tool of mass empowerment, but for the Plutocracy, our masters, they see that we are in possession of a weapon of mass destruction, with their names stenciled on the side.
Consequently their survival depends on the subtlety of their actions.
Conflict and division along ethnical and religious lines are always successful, so keeping those tried and true methods alive is easy; economic division is always a winner, and of course we can’t forget good old fear and the hate it engenders.
Is it any wonder they must monitor us, all of us, all of the time ??
Oh, their Achilles heel ? Its that same medium they employ to watch us, their own creation, the most powerful weapon for change ever beaten into shape, the sword that can strike everywhere, anytime, against anyone…
With a gentle tap of my finger, I just wielded it…
Great points. I also think tis could fit : “If you have an important point to make, don’t try to be subtle or clever. Use a pile driver. Hit the point once. Then come back and hit it again. Then hit it a third time – a tremendous whack.
Winston Churchill
Cheers
‘this* could fit.’ (Sorry if any confusion) (sp etc)
Wow. If you can’t win the argument then just change the rules. Also, I appreciate you explaining, again, what is happening at The Intercept.
Thanks to Glenn for posting that fascinating and important material by Mr. Abunimah. To read other portions of this compelling book, see an excerpt on “The Economic Destruction of Gaza,” here: http://www.truth-out.org/progressivepicks/item/23004-the-economic-destruction-of-gaza
Ah, finally, glad to see you’re back. Very fascinating article. I don’t see too much of the struggle between pro-Palestinian and pro-Israeli groups at the university I attend (the student body isn’t very political overall), but the McCarthyism parallels are definitely still evident at the national level. Voting habits, for instance, still haven’t recovered from the 1950’s as evidenced by voters’ general unwillingness to vote for third party candidates.
Glenn, I am so glad to see you posting here again.
Strangely, your new editor in chief’s main and only accomplishment so far was to practically close down The Intercept. Nice job, by the way but is this what he was hired to do?
That’s totally false in so many ways.
His main job – like all editors-in-chief – is to make our newly created outlet function as effectively as can be, and to produce the best possible journalism.
He was hired by a very new outlet that did not have a single full-time editor in place yet, making it impossible – outside of NSA reporting – to do anything but post a few sporadic blog posts in a very ad hoc and scattershot manner. He concluded that it would be far better to get ourselves together in terms of our editorial team and publish in a planned and systematic way – and to revamp the website to make it far more conducive to a lively site – and I agree with him. We’re in the process of building that.
At the same time, we are hard at work on some very significant and complicated NSA stories that take a lot of reportorial, editorial, and other vetting work to do. It’s far more efficient for us to devote our attention and energy to getting these NSA stories right than to try to publish some posts every day before we’re ready to do non-NSA-journalism just for the sake of doing so.
We were VERY EXPLICIT AND CLEAR from the start that we were launching earlier than we were ready for one reason and one reason only: TO REPORT ON NSA STORIES. We made clear that we would expand our focus over time ONLY as we built our infrastructure to support broader journalism.
if you’d like, I can quote you and cite you all the different times I and others said this – including on the very first day of our launch, and on our About page.
For whatever reasons, people chose to ignore this and assumed that we were going to be a daily, general interest site right away. Some of that may have been my fault, as I encouraged people to post now and then. But that’s not the right way to run a new political site. It needs some planning, and editorial infrastructure, and coherence, and that’s what John is leading us in building.
I’m glad people are so anxious for us to be a full-service, daily, news outlet. That will happen very soon. And when it does, we will be much better off for having done it the right way – having built the site on a sturdy foundation.
In the meantime, I’ll continue to post when I have things I think are worth saying. But mostly, we’re going to be devoted to NSA reporting over the next (at least) 4-6 weeks more or less at the expense of everything else. That’s exactly what we said we would do when we launched – over and over and over.
Thank you for clarifying and explaining it all.,
Yes, you did state way back then that The Intercept launch was a little hurried and that there were some good reasons to hurry it but you and others were posting with some frequency for a while and then… it all stopped.
I found it strange that nothing followed the Editor’s post of April 14 which followed your last post of April 4. Even the comments section to his post was closed a few days ago so The Intercept went ‘dark’ and the impression or my impression was that no one wanted to hear from its readers after April 21. I was wondering what ‘everybody’ – not only you but all the other talented and courageous colleagues of yours – were doing for the past month or so. They didn’t stop writing and investigating, I’m sure :)
Looking forward to reading your new book and to the ‘new and improved’ Intercept soon. And cheers to everyone involved with this publication.
No problem. I understand the impatience. I share it. But I promise: this is a long-term project ,and things will be better in both the short- and long-term if we build our house with a solid rather than a rickety and haphazard foundation. I’m more convinced than ever that John is the perfect person to lead the building of this and I think long-time readers will be very happy with the outcome.
It didn’t really stop. It just seemed like it did, mostly because my travels over the past two weeks (which included a one-week vacation, the first I’ve taken since I began publishing Snowden stuff 10 months ago) meant that i stopped posting.
As I said, part of the confusion was my fault. After saying that we were launching only to do NSA reporting, I began encouraging other people to post, but the result was just some haphazard, erratic blogging – no non-NSA reporting – that isn’t really representative of what we ultimately want to do.
John’s view was that we should, for now, only do what we are prepared to do well: NSA reporting with my blogging when I want to. We’ll then use our time and energy to get ready to do everything else as soon as possible, but to do it in a high-quality way that will represent the kind of journalism we want to do. He’s right about that.
We had an in-person meeting in NYC a few weeks ago with almost everyone on the staff and are more excited than ever by what we’re creating and will do. We just told ourselves we need to be a little patient, and are asking the same of our readers. I’m convinced it will be well worth it.
That's really important and worthwhile to communicate in the flesh. It has become so common place to, I think, a somewhat detrimental degree, limit communication to email, text, conference call, skype and whatever. Those are all fine and useful means of communication, but none of that can ever fully take the place of person to person meetups…especially when there are several people all involved with such an important as this journalistic undertaking is.
Continuing to look forward to what I am confident will be a dynamic and ground breaking media outlet!
PS: Glad to hear that you took an actual, real honest to goodness vacation break.
Closing tag missed. Just think…someday I’ll have a shot at correcting that sort of mess up with the available edit feature!
I couldn’t agree more. it’s easy to overlook the importance of in-person human interaction – I often do so myself – but there is something significant lost when human beings don’t communicate and interact in person.
An elf seems to have fixed it for you.
Very very disappointed that you have not solved world hunger by now Glenn. Very disappointed. What’s wrong with you anyway!
But Bill, I want him to write a 1000 page dissertation on Putin! Followed by one on world hunger, followed by one on the state of America’s potholes, followed by one on the dangers of a late frost. What about ME?!
Glenn; Why are my comments being shit-canned?
Glad to see Glenn and the others take this approach, both to the NSA stories and the magazine. The p.r. side of the natsec clique has been itching to hang something on Glenn, and he hasn’t given it to them, so they’re left with making stuff up. Glenn or the magazine rush things, and suddenly they are on defense, which is not where a new publication wants to be. I think we’ve seen few recent examples.
I’m sure we have no idea of the grinding detail and the various iterations they have to address to get one of these stories out correctly. I’ll the ‘three yards and a cloud of dust’ approach.
I see no political solution.
I see a spiritual (not religious) solution, but only when people will see ‘others’ as ‘us’ and apply this simplest formula: Do not do to others what you don’t want done to yourself.
@Sufi Muslim –
I think you have it – the good ol’ Golden Rule. Now if we can just get people to follow it!
It requires strong spiritual effort/discipline to shed desires and attachments and to move away from the lower qualities of the self, such as arrogance, selfishness, revenge, injustice, us vs them mentality, etc., or a major disaster.
Organized religion is also a huge barrier.
Yes, I can agree that it takes quite a spiritual effort to really progress.
For me, I don’t see organized religion as an obstacle, but as I think on it, I can see how you or others might think so. I’m Christian, and it saddens me to see how intolerant some other Christians can be- of other faiths, and even of gay people. I find that the message of Jesus teaches me and challenges me to be a better person. I can still learn from teachers and practitioners of other faiths, though, can’t I?
BTW, a former colleague of mine had a poster on her door – it was the Golden Rule as expressed by many different faiths!
If a religious or a non-religious path helps an individual and a group develop the higher qualities of the self that I’ve listed often, then I’m all for it, and it doesn’t matter if it’s organized or not.
Nice to have you back from your book, and awards acceptance tour! The font is a little bit on the large size for the quoted text from Abunimah’s book.