(updated below [Fri])
Ayman Mohyeldin, the NBC News correspondent who personally witnessed yesterday’s killing by Israel of four Palestinian boys on a Gazan beach and who has received widespread praise for his brave and innovative coverage of the conflict, has been told by NBC executives to leave Gaza immediately. According to an NBC source upset at his treatment, the executives claimed the decision was motivated by “security concerns” as Israel prepares a ground invasion, a claim repeated to me by an NBC executive. But late yesterday, NBC sent another correspondent, Richard Engel, along with an American producer who has never been to Gaza and speaks no Arabic, into Gaza to cover the ongoing Israeli assault (both Mohyeldin and Engel speak Arabic).
Mohyeldin is an Egyptian-American with extensive experience reporting on that region. He has covered dozens of major Middle East events in the last decade for CNN, NBC and Al Jazeera English, where his reporting on the 2008 Israeli assault on Gaza made him a star of the network. NBC aggressively pursued him to leave Al Jazeera, paying him far more than the standard salary for its on-air correspondents.
Yesterday, Mohyeldin witnessed and then reported on the brutal killing by Israeli gunboats of four young boys as they played soccer on a beach in Gaza City. He was instrumental, both in social media and on the air, in conveying to the world the visceral horror of the attack.
Mohyeldin recounted how, moments before their death, he was kicking a soccer ball with the four boys, who were between the ages of 9 and 11 and all from the same family. He posted numerous chilling details on his Twitter and Instagram accounts, including the victims’ names and ages, photographs he took of their anguished parents, and video of one of their mothers as she learned about the death of her young son. He interviewed one of the wounded boys at the hospital shortly before being operated on. He then appeared on MSNBC’s All In with Chris Hayes, where he dramatically recounted what he saw.
Despite this powerful first-hand reporting – or perhaps because of it – Mohyeldin was nowhere to be seen on last night’s NBC Nightly News broadcast with Brian Williams. Instead, as Media Bistro’s Jordan Chariton noted, NBC curiously had Richard Engel – who was in Tel Aviv, and had just arrived there an hour or so earlier – “report” on the attack. Charlton wrote that “the decision to have Engel report the story for ‘Nightly’ instead of Mohyeldin angered some NBC News staffers.”
Indeed, numerous NBC employees, including some of the network’s highest-profile stars, were at first confused and then indignant over the use of Engel rather than Mohyeldin to report the story. But what they did not know, and what has not been reported until now, is that Mohyeldin was removed completely from reporting on Gaza by a top NBC executive, David Verdi, who ordered Mohyeldin to leave Gaza immediately.
Over the last two weeks, Mohyeldin’s reporting has been far more balanced and even-handed than the standard pro-Israel coverage that dominates establishment American press coverage; his reports have provided context to the conflict that is missing from most American reports and he avoids adopting Israeli government talking points as truth. As a result, neocon and “pro-Israel” websites have repeatedly attacked him as a “Hamas spokesman” and spouting “pro-Hamas rants.”
Last week, as he passed over the border from Israel, he said while reporting that “you can understand why some human rights organizations call Gaza ‘the world’s largest outdoor prison,'”; he added: “One of the major complaints and frustrations among many people is that this is a form of collective punishment. You have 1.7 million people in this territory, now being bombarded, with really no way out.”
Gazans may have no way out of Gaza, but at this point, Mohyeldin seems to have no way back in. After several requests, NBC executives have not yet provided any on-the-record statements; they will be added if provided.
Andrew Fishman contributed reporting to this story.
UPDATE [Fri]: The New York Times’ television reporter just reported on Twitter that NBC has “reversed its decision” and is now sending Mohyeldin back to Gaza as soon as possible:
NBC’s statement states: “As with any news team in conflict zones, deployments are constantly reassessed. We’ve carefully considered our deployment decisions and we will be sending Mohyeldin back to Gaza over the weekend.” About that, CNN’s media reporter Brian Stelter tweeted: “My read of NBC’s statement: an about-face that comes close to saying ‘we made a mistake.'” Much more about this on @CNNReliable on Sunday.)” Meanwhile, Mohyeldin himself tweeted the following:
Follow-up on this story line: “MSNBC’s Sole Palestinian Voice Rula Jebreal Takes on Pro-Israeli Gov’t Bias at Network & in US Media”
Excellent interview by Amy Goodman – Democracy Now:
http://www.democracynow.org/2014/7/23/msnbcs_sole_palestinian_voice_rula_jebreal?autostart=true&get_clicky_key=suggested_related
OOps. From the sentence beginning Bible Believers Church note on previious post, this is THE INDEX TO THE TALMUD, sorry
These are FREE downloads
Excerpted from The Truth about the Torah by Hoffman. I found this particularly disturbing, considering the Christian view that these are God’s chosen people and if we turn our backs on them God is going to destroy us.
“Since God already gave the Torah to the Jewish people on Mt. Sinai we no longer pay attention to heavenly voices. God must submit to the decisions of a majority vote of the rabbis.”
—BT Bava Metzia 59b
Care to see the zionist opinion of YOU?????????
Bible Believers’ Church Note:
The conclusion of Scholars of the Hebrew and Aramaic languages is that, in the case of volatile passages, the Pranaitis translations are consistently superior to the Soncino. In such passages that cannot be omitted, Soncino’s practice is to tone them down by paraphrasing. Their standard for comparison is the authoritative Mantuan Edition of the Zohar (16th century), which resides in the Judaic Section of the Library of Congress.
——————————————————————————–
ANTIPHONE
PROLOGUE
DESCRIPTION OF THE TALMUD
SOURCE
PART ONE
THE TEACHING OF THE TALMUD CONCERNING CHRISTIANS
CHAPTER I – JESUS CHRIST IN THE TALMUD
Article I. – Concerning the Names of Jesus Christ
Article II. – The Life of Christ
Note About The Cross
Article III. – The Teachings of Christ
CHAPTER II – CHRISTIANS IN THE TALMUD
Article I. – The Names Given to Christians in the Talmud
Article II. – What the Talmud Teaches About Christians
Article III. – Christian Worship
PART TWO
PRECEPTS OF THE TALMUD CONCERNING CHRISTIANS
CHAPTER I – CHRISTIANS ARE TO BE AVOIDED
Article I. – Christians Unworthy to Share With Jews
Article II. – Christians Are Unclean
Article III. – Christians Are Idolaters
Article IV. – Christians Are Evil
CHAPTER II – CHRISTIANS ARE TO BE EXTERMINATED
Article I. – CHRISTIANS TO BE HARMED INDIRECTLY
I. By not Helping Them
II. By Interfering in Their Work
III. By Deceit in Legal Matters
IV. By Harming Them in Things Necessary for Life
Article II. – CHRISTIANS ARE TO BE HARMED DIRECTLY
1. Renegades to be killed
2. Apostates
3. Princes, especially the Prince of Rome (the Pope) to be exterminated
4. All Christians to be killed
5. Killing a Christian is an Acceptable Sacrifice to God
6. Heaven Promised to Those Who Kill Christians
7. A Christian may be Beheaded on the most Solemn Festivals
8. The Messiah expected will be Revengeful
9. Jewish Prayers against Christians
10. Christian Prayers for the Jews
11.Objective of Jewish Prayers is the Destruction of Christianity
12. Jews Pray for a Revengeful Messiah
…/PART ONE
…/PART TWO
…/Back to Index
I have been watching from day one and I don’t think Palestinians started fighting back until about the 3rd or 4th day. Anyway hundreds were killed before any rockets were fired from Palestine and those rockets are toys compared to what Israel fires on Gaza.(now they are using napalm)
The Jews of Israel are showing themselves for the killers they are. The people of the world are eventually going to figure out who is the bad guy here.
And any one who can watch Israeli civilians sitting in lounge chairs cheering on the death of Palestinians and not be disgusted is as bad as those Israelis sitting in the chairs.
Been watching news most of the day as I take care of 87 year old mother for the summer. Ayman still reporting. Most MSNBC host streaming him His reporting is revealing the disproportionate amount of fire power very clear, the killing innocent Palestinians in the hundreds…500 and counting. Last night on one of the MSNBC outlets Richard Engel in a no nonsense way let the public know what is really going on in the Gaza. Blood Bath. “Not very pinpoint from my angle here in the Gaza. Then goes onto describe the amputation of a young Palestinian girls leg and the loss of her mother father and brother due to Israeli fire. Yesterday on Ronan Farrow’s Rula Jebreal called out the decades long complicity of the MSM always supporting Israel. She even called out Andrea Mitchell for never giving air time to Palestinians. Today Andrea had Yousef Munayer on. I thought Rula might be a goner for calling Andrea on her historic complicity.
How absurd to have Senator Diane “voted for the 2002 Iraq war resolution” lecturing Putin about the killing of innocents. She needs to “woman up” and admit her role in supporting the Bush administrations rush to invade Iraq. She is covered in the Iraqi people and Americans soldiers blood. Along with Kerry and Clinton. And then we keep hearing Reps, Kerry, Feinstein etc stating that Russia needs to stop supplying “terrorist” with weapons. Monkey see Monkey do. Insane hearing Mika Bryznyski talking about Russian media propaganda. What the hell planet are these propagandist on?
Well said. And the obliteration of truth continues in a rampant manner in the Western press.
“While the Israeli government said that its operations in the West Bank were carried out to find the three missing teenagers, it has emerged that the Israeli authorities had evidence within 24 hours of the abduction indicating both the suspects and that the three teenagers had been killed. Despite this information, military actions were justified as attempts to “find the youth” and identify their kidnappers.
Hamas was also publicly blamed for the abduction by the Israeli government, although Israeli intelligence officials have now said that Hamas leadership was not involved in the kidnapping. Hamas has also repeatedly denied any involvement in the kidnapping. Despite this, Israel used the kidnapping as an excuse for rounding up Hamas political activists in the West Bank. The Israeli government has demanded that the Palestinian Authority end its reconciliation with Hamas and allow Israel free reign to act against Hamas.’ American Friends Service Committee (Nobel Peace Prize winner) http://afsc.org/story/ending-oppression-end-violence-gaza-escalation-context
Are you about exposing the sins of the national government of the United States of America or a shill for anti-Semites, Greenwald? So the several thousand Israeli citizens killed by the homicide bombers during the intifadas were what, collateral damage to you? Self-defense is always justified. Offensive violence never is. The problem with leftists is the innate inability to distinguish the two.
I think you’re adding too many zeros. Between 1987 and 2011, 7900 Palestinians have died, 1600 children. In that same time 1500 Israelis died, 140 children. Those statistics are from Israeli sources. There could be even higher Palestinian casualties but those are the ones the Israeli government lists. I lost a dear friend to a Palestinian suicide bomber in a school cafeteria, but when we talk about this conflict, we need to be honest. Israel will always win, they have a stronger, modern military. Gazans are packed densely into a small area and there is no where for civilians to run. I’m saddened by all the senseless death over a dirt patch. But, the killing has been going on for 9000 years, since the early days of Jericho, maybe someday, the ground will be so soaked in the blood of the innocents that people decide its not worth it.
This is the point most hypocrites look over. They are all killing and praying to the same God/Allah/Jehovah and forget they are told they will live in the Heaven/Hell their deeds create. They are the hypocrites talked about in their own books and if they had faith in a deity they would shear the gravel in love & peace. This is why Muhammed told them “The Jews, Christians & Muslims will divide themselves into sects/factions all in hell except those who follow the teachings of God/Allah/Jehovah i.e love one another, help the helpless, feed the hungry, home the homeless etc..” All they want is holy right to rule so We the Believers in the Omniscient life wait for their death so we can clean up the mess and finally live in Peace. I wish the Khazarian People would stop claiming to be Jews because of these Zionist Fascist Bigots paying all sides to murder for their New World Order goals none of us can get to live in peace. this is leading to civil war in America and like it or not there is nothing more a bigot like than to say “KILL IN THE NAME OF JESUS” after all isn’t that how all the slaves go here. 2014
The problem is, this has been going on for a very long time…Gazans are packed in, easy targets. civilians die because the terrorist are amount them. Thats the repetitive speeches by Israeli sources, that Canada & the U.S. back over and over….why what is in it for Canada and the U.S.? … Why is fighting back by the Palestinians make them terrorists and bombing and pushing /taking more and more land by Israeli’s causing the loss of more and more life less, for somehow in the news one Israeli soldier unclaimed is more of a tragedy than 4 killed children on a beach. Over and over news coverage makes Palestinians villains . They are supposed to remain encamped in sub-conditions, pushed back more and more. It is such an outrageous long one-sided terrible war. Who benefits by it beens sustained? Who?
To disagree with the policies of a government or a particular leader in power, doesn’t make you an Anti-Semite. I didn’t like George Bush or Dick Cheney, I disagreed with most of their policies, as did the great majority of the world. Did that mean they hated the United States or the religion of these two people in particular. No, they disagreed with their policies.
Glenn Greenwald, happens to be Jewish. I happen to be Irish Catholic. We are both belong small populations of people with very diverse opinions, even within that small group. Not all people within a small group are the same or agree on the best course of action for themselves and humanity at large. The English used to murder l-2 million Irish at a clip during their hundreds of years of occupation with superior weapons. The conditions were so horrific, we can’t even make films about these times, without fear of starting the fighting all over again. They wanted to kill most of the population and use the land for cattle and crops (for profit). We were the original terrorists. fighting an occupying power.
I do not condone murder, I do not condone firing on civilians, by either side in this conflict. But real reporting and real journalism are essential. The United States gifts Israel 3-5 billion a year, 75% which must be spent on American weapons contractors. This is the devil’s deal we live with as our infrastructure crumbles. Plus nobody ever mentions the oil and gas under the Palestian territories where the settlements are being placed. To mention this does not mean, I hate Israelis or Jewish people across the world. I would very much like Israel to have a country, to live in peace and trade with 1.6 billion partners, as opposed to fighting 1.6 billion enemies. That day may come. But profiteers make money on war and conflict and certainly oil and gas…and that is the reality!
You’re right. Self defense is always justified. All you have to do now is go back and try to figure out who is doing the defending.
Oh, and Glenn Greenwald is about reporting on the truth about various things that happen all over the world, that powerful people and organizations routinely lie about.
Firstly there is nothing anti-semitic in Greenwald story and calling it that does not help your cause. Screaming “antisemitic” everytime someone disagrees with you is no argument. Secondly you need to get your facts right. Yes thoudands have died but they are not Israeli they are palestinian. In the years since 2000 1,100 Israelis have been killed compared to more than 7,000 Palestinians. And Palestinians have a good argument suggesting all their actions are self defence. Perhaps you need to go to the history books and start pre 1948; it will help you understand even if you still don’t agree.
you would think that one who has been in hell undeservedly would not create hell undeservedly for someone else! but you would be wrong!
O/T – Here’s a lead that The Intercept could follow. Robert Parry, who is a Polk-award winning investigative journalist, is reporting the following at Consortium News:
I read the article and it provided an interesting possibility. If it’s true, then Kiev should be held accountable. On the other hand, Parry never mentions anything about Russian spy capabilities which are sophisticated as well. In terms of intelligence capabilities, Russia is not a third world country. Certainly Russia has been monitoring eastern Ukraine just like the US. I’m just as surprised that they have not produced photos which might confirm Parry’s source.
then prepared to be surprised: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-21/russia-says-has-photos-ukraine-deploying-buk-missiles-east-rader-proof-warplanes-mh1
NBC correspondents speak Arabic, the language of the “land” where they are reporting – I would expect that. But, why don’t they speak Hebrew too? How can you report on a conflict, when you only understand one of the two languages being spoken? I really don’t get this.
NBC correspondents speak Arabic, the langauge of the “land” where they are reporting – I would expect that. But, why don’t they speak Hebrew too? How can you report on a conflict, when you only understand one of the two languages being spoken? I really don’t get this.
Simply unreal in terms of just how compromised our “news” truly is. Anyone condeming Israel’s actions in the US is labeled an anti Semite, one prejudiced against Jews. Simply unbelievable. If the Palestinians had the same weaponry as the Israelis, the situation would be rather different in terms of settlements, Hamas and the Israeli/Palestinian equation. Lets hope Mohyeldin can do his job of actually reporting the news, something just about every other report in the US does not. Good piece for sure.
Israel holds moral ground in Gaza.. -charles ‘stain on humanity’ krauthammer
re: Israel’s withdrawal from the Gaza strip (2005)
Fuk’ this delusionist (.. and all who think like him) who pontificates ‘independence’, while neglecting to reference the fact that this freedom includes Israel’s control of the Palestinian’s BOARDERS, COASTLINE and AIRSPACE.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/charles-krauthammer-moral-clarity-in-gaza/2014/07/17/0adabe0c-0de4-11e4-8c9a-923ecc0c7d23_story.html
Violence in Israel against people perceived to be “leftists,” committed by right-wing Jewish fascists, continues. From Haaretz:
Thanks for the wonderful report may god bless u and the innocent ppl of GAZA
Also the Presbyterians. Christians aligning with Muslims. There’s hope…
When it comes to supporting a massacre of innocent brown skinned people, the shamelessness of American citizens knows no bounds. https://twitter.com/MattKozarTV
Obama could stop this by immediately cutting off all aid to Israel. Why should he
be afraid of AIPAC ? He can’t run again.
Israel has become the Frankenstein creation of Washington. It’s up to Washington to do something about it.
Who taught the Israeli’s that attacking defenseless population centers was an honorable thing?
He would be impeached before he could finish signing the executive order. The United States is unfortunately saddled with a constitution that sets up different branches of government. So the country is denied the benefits of a benevolent dictator who is unconstrained by political considerations.
Of course, even a dictator should consider the possible consequences of their actions. Since aid to Israel is purely military and since 75% of that must be used to purchase American made weapons, you can see there would be a negative effect on innocent arms manufacturers. Even for the seemingly most straightforward actions, there may be unintended consequences.
Obama cannot cut off aid to Israel. If he tried anything, he would be vetoed by congress. The senate just voted 100 to zero in favor of Israel.
I’m not saying that I have any love for Obama. There are definitely things he could do if he just changed his posture, grew a spine, or behaved like an American president for 3 seconds. But unfortunately, he’s just another politician, worried about his presidential library, and what they say about him on fox news and the new york times.
George H W Bush threatened to cut off all aid to Israel when the Israelis started moving into new settlements on the West Bank back in 1989. I don’t remember if he actually did cut off aid — he may have for a short period of time — but he succeeded in at least slowing the settlements. Obama could do a lot that he is not doing. Are you saying he is powerless? He must like being let off the hook so easily.
Then let him stand up and BE vetoed. Let’s take a look at who salutes. What is there to actually be afraid of?
I went to the San Francisco March for Palestine today. After the rally at the Ferry Building on the Embarcadero we marched up Market street. I was in the front of the line so I periodically looked back to get an estimate of how many people there were. It was kind of hard to tell but I would guess that the procession filled maybe about 1.5 blocks. For those who know Market, that’s a pretty good size.
The march paused frequently for more rallying. There was also a die-in where everyone sat down in the street. There was a police presence but it was all peaceful as far as I could tell. The energy really started to pick up the further up Market we got. I couldn’t say for sure, but it seemed like more and more people joined in from the sidewalks along the way.
The march ended up at at City Hall. Those in the front ran up the steps. Most appeared to be Palestinian. The steps were filled with people, many waving Palestinian flags. It was an exhilarating moment. One of the the speakers on the steps said the crowd was estimated to be 6,000 people.
I was hoping the local news channels would have video if it tonight but there wasn’t coverage of it except a segment on a much smaller SF demonstration by both sides at a Jewish temple.
There’s going to be another demonstration next Saturday, also at the Ferry Building, which I’m definitely going to attend. Being among the protesters reminded me how much America needs this type community based activism right now. It was good to feel the bond and know there are many sane people still out there.
What’s going on is sheer madness and utterly depraved. It is an evil that I wasn’t expecting to see sanctioned again by the US government in my lifetime. Observing the many horrific images of the slaughter of indigenous Palestinian civilians affected me to the core. Getting together with other rational human beings in an expression of solidarity is a smart move. Government isn’t going to stop the genocide until the people insist on it.
Here’s a brief story on the march with some pictures:
http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Rally-in-S-F-to-protest-violence-in-Gaza-5634188.php#photo-6621815
@ Tujays:
That is a wonderful post! Thank you.
You are 100% correct that citizens of the world, especially in the US, must speak out now. This is the first full news account of a US demonstration that I have seen posted on this comment board.
I applaud your activism.
Tujays: Thank you so much for sharing that. It’s very encouraging.
I’d either have to go about 2 hours south over the border to Chicago, or 3 hours away to Detroit to attend a march, and I’m not sure my health would allow it. But I so feel the pull, especially after reading about your wonderful experience.
Finally….. “UN Security Council urges immediate Gaza ceasefire”
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/07/21/372160/un-security-council-urges-gaza-truce/
Another link: “UN condemns ‘Shejaia massacre’, urges end to violence”
Lots of live footage. http://rt.com/news/174272-israel-gaza-shelling-victims/
Photo caption: Israelis sit on a hill to watch air strikes on Gaza, some bring drinks and snacks as they cheer the explosions a few miles away. Photograph: UPI/Landov/Barcroft Media
And more thugs threatening people for having the wrong politics:
Rest, with photos of the happy partiers, here: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israelis-cheer-gaza-bombing
That is absolutely disgusting.
At this link is the exact same scene (see white couch and chairs) but with a full complement of spectators:
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/07/20/372110/israelis-rejoice-as-military-bombs-gaza/
Zionist brain-washing complete.
Fireworks late at night in my neighborhood and across Israel in Arab communities “celebrating” the alleged capture / kidnapping of an Israeli soldier (but probably not true). Hamas operatives found with handcuffs and sedatives to aid in capture of Israelis.
Nice try…. by which I mean to say you are a pathetic little man.
Analysis | Israel’s attack on Gaza is the culmination of 66 years of settler-colonialism
(Clip)
Bending the law to kill
So far, the IDF has killed more than 400 Palestinians, 80% of whom are civilians, and wounded 2,000; while two Israelis have been killed (one by ‘friendly’ fire). Israeli officials claim that they are targeting Hamas military installations. “According to the army, since the start of the entire operation, 200 ‘command and control centres’ and 43 ‘Hamas regime buildings’ have been hit,” notes British journalist Ben White. “The former is often a euphemism for someone’s family home; the latter includes government ministries.”
But over 1,300 Palestinian homes have been destroyed by Israeli bombs. By implication, assuming the claim is true in the first place, the IDF’s own figures imply that only 243 of these have been remotely connected to Hamas.
Israel’s military track record suggests worse. White highlights a Ha’aretz report from 2009 which revealed that “IDF officers were receiving legal advice that allowed for large numbers of civilian casualties and the targeting of government buildings.”—Nafeez Ahmed
Excellent article.
“IDF spokespeople attempt to legitimise the wanton destruction of civilian life in Gaza by blaming Hamas for using human shields. But these claims remain largely unsubstantiated. In its 2009 investigation, Amnesty International “did not find evidence that Hamas or other Palestinian groups violated the laws of war to the extent repeatedly alleged by Israel. In particular, it found no evidence that Hamas or other fighters directed the movement of civilians to shield military objectives from attacks.”
On the contrary, Amnesty found that the IDF itself was using Palestinians as human shields: “Amnesty International did find that Israeli forces on several occasions during Operation ‘Cast Lead’ forced Palestinian civilians to serve as ‘human shields.’” (pp. 48, 75)”
Thanks for posting. Bookmarked.
@barncat 20 Jul 2014 at 8:49 pm
——–
I’ve read your latest post. It’s getting late for me now. I’ll see if I can compose a thoughtful response tomorrow and post it.
Looks like we’ve moved on. So, some other time, barncat.
Ok! It was an enjoyable exchange. Thanks.
Letters to the Editor
New York Times
December 4, 1948
TO THE EDITORS OF THE NEW YORK TIMES:
Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our times is the emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the “Freedom Party” (Tnuat Haherut), a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties. It was formed out of the membership and following of the former Irgun Zvai Leumi, a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist organization in Palestine.
The current visit of Menachem Begin, leader of this party, to the United States is obviously calculated to give the impression of American support for his party in the coming Israeli elections, and to cement political ties with conservative Zionist elements in the United States. Several Americans of national repute have lent their names to welcome his visit. It is inconceivable that those who oppose fascism throughoutthe world, if correctly informed as to Mr. Begin’s political record and perspectives, could add their names and support to the movement he represents.
Before irreparable damage is done by way of financial contributions, public manifestations in Begin’s behalf, and the creation in Palestine of the impression that a large segment of America supports Fascist elements in Israel, the American public must be informed as to the record and objectives of Mr. Begin and his movement. The public avowals of Begin’s party are no guide whatever to its actual character. Today they speak of freedom, democracy and anti-imperialism, whereas until recently they openly preached the doctrine of the Fascist state. It is in its actions that the terrorist party betrays its real character; from its past actions we can judge what it may be expected to do in the future.
Attack on Arab Village
A shocking example was their behavior in the Arab village of Deir Yassin. This village, off the main roads and surrounded by Jewish lands, had taken no part in the war, and had even fought off Arab bands who wanted to use the village as their base. On April 9 (THE NEW YORK TIMES), terrorist bands attacked this peaceful village, which was not a military objective in the fighting, killed most of its inhabitants ? 240men, women, and children – and kept a few of them alive to parade as captives through the streets of Jerusalem. Most of the Jewish community was horrified at the deed, and the Jewish Agency sent a telegram of apology to King Abdullah of Trans-Jordan. But the terrorists, far from being ashamed of their act, were proud of this massacre, publicized it widely, and invited all the foreign correspondents present in the country to view the heaped corpses and the general havoc at Deir Yassin. The Deir Yassin incident exemplifies the character and actions of the Freedom Party.
Within the Jewish community they have preached an admixture of ultranationalism, religious mysticism, and racial superiority. Like other Fascist parties they have been used to break strikes, and have themselves pressed for the destruction of free trade unions. In their stead they have proposed corporate unions on the Italian Fascist model. During the last years of sporadic anti-British violence, the IZL and Stern groups inaugurated a reign of terror in the Palestine Jewish community. Teachers were beaten up for speaking against them, adults were shot for not letting their children join them. By gangster methods, beatings, window-smashing, and wide-spread robberies, the terrorists intimidated the population and exacted a heavy tribute.
The people of the Freedom Party have had no part in the constructive achievements in Palestine. They have reclaimed no land, built no settlements, and only detracted from the Jewish defense activity. Their much-publicized immigration endeavors were minute, and devoted mainly to bringing in Fascist compatriots.
Discrepancies Seen
The discrepancies between the bold claims now being made by Begin and his party, and their record of past performance in Palestine bear the imprint of no ordinary political party. This is the unmistakable stamp of a Fascist party for whom terrorism (against Jews, Arabs, and British alike), and misrepresentation are means, and a “Leader State” is the goal.
In the light of the foregoing considerations, it is imperative that the truth about Mr. Begin and his movement be made known in this country. It is all the more tragic that the top leadership of American Zionism has refused to campaign against Begin’s efforts, or even to expose to its own constituents the dangers to Israel from support to Begin.
The undersigned therefore take this means of publicly presenting a few salient facts concerning Begin and his party; and of urging all concerned not to support this latest manifestation of fascism.
ISIDORE ABRAMOWITZ
HANNAH ARENDT
ABRAHAM BRICK
RABBI JESSURUN CARDOZO
ALBERT EINSTEIN
HERMAN EISEN, M.D.
HAYIM FINEMAN
M. GALLEN, M.D.
H.H. HARRIS
ZELIG S. HARRIS
SIDNEY HOOK
FRED KARUSH
BRURIA KAUFMAN
IRMA L. LINDHEIM
NACHMAN MAISEL
SEYMOUR MELMAN
MYER D. MENDELSON
M.D., HARRY M. OSLINSKY
SAMUEL PITLICK
FRITZ ROHRLICH
LOUIS P. ROCKER
RUTH SAGIS
ITZHAK SANKOWSKY
I.J. SHOENBERG
SAMUEL SHUMAN
M. SINGER
IRMA WOLFE
STEFAN WOLF.
New York, Dec. 2, 1948
Here’s an interesting footnote.
http://www.juancole.com/2014/07/crisis-israel-infrastructure.html
Water and sewage facilities targeted. I’m not sure how many Hamas missiles would be hidden in there, or what intrinsic danger to Israeli security that water and sewage facilities would pose, but there it is. It’ll be curious to see, in a few months, what the death rate from typhoid will be.
http://www.juancole.com/2014/07/crisis-israel-infrastructure.html
Headline: ‘Are you a fucking leftist?’ –Israeli fascists target anti-occupation activists in Tel Aviv
Pedinska made an important point below. While polls show Israelis overwhelmingly in support of their nation’s massacre in Gaza, there is a small minority who are outraged, and who are protesting in the face of violent, Jewish-fascist attacks.
And I mean fascist. Some have adorned themselves with a logo of European fascists, save for replacing a part of the design with Stars of David. These scum are inquiring: “Are you a leftist?” If so, they want you dead. Israeli David Sheen has posted Facebook commentary from these people explicitly advocating gas chambers for “leftists.”
Attacks on so-called leftists have been going on for a long time from the aggressively Zionist snake pits, and our own Craig Summers has all but said that everyone commenting here against Zionist atrocities is a leftist, by definition.
In today’s Israel, as with the Nazis of Germany, being associated with the left is dangerous. Even — perhaps especially — if you are a Jew.
More here: http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/fascists-occupation-activists.html
Let’s not forget what Americans were like after 9/11. Most people just wanted our military to get “over there” and start killing people. It didn’t seem matter which people. If you can’t be moved by nationalistic, ethnic, or religious pride consider yourself fortunate. The continuation of life on
the planet may depend on you.
“……… It didn’t seem matter which people……..”
You need to clarify that Larry. Muslims, OK? We were OK with the ones that looked like us (as long as they didn’t speak Russian).
Yes. Remember “Shock and Awe”? The msm promoted it
like a Hollywood blockbuster and people were glued to their tv’s. Hitler isn’t the model here. It’s the USA.
The Palestinians used to be the victims. Now you are Mona. Wow, how things suddenly change. The “fascist” Jews are after you – and they work with the NSA……….
Not me, I’m not an Israeli “leftist” Jew. You Zionists cannot harm me in the U.S., but I am sure you — or some of you — would if you could.
That’s pretty funny Mona. Again…..the victim. How many leftists have been killed by right wing fascist Jews again…..world-wide?
>”The Palestinians used to be the victims.”
Are you insane … or just a stubbornly cold-hearted sob Mr. Summers? Israel has the very latest in sophisticated (mostly U.S. supplied) weaponry, the ‘Palestinians’ have bottle rockets*. ‘So far, the IDF has killed more than 400 Palestinians, 80% of whom are civilians, and wounded 2,000; while two Israelis have been killed (one by ‘friendly’ fire).” h/t kitt
*On ABC this morning, as Sec. Kerry was explaining Isreal’s right to self-defense, ABC showed continuous footage of what appeared to be ‘bottle rockets’ being launched from Gaza.
@ bahhummingbug
I believe that the answer to your first question is both. The truth is of no concern to Mr. Summers. He has already committed his soul to the Zionist mission and can’t find his way into his own conscience anymore. Even cold hard facts will not penetrate his hardened heart. The majority of the world is wrong, and he, of course, is the only illuminated one.
The Presidents of Venezuela and Bolivia are calling for UN condemnation against Israel.
““Venezuela also rejects the cynical campaigns trying to condemn both parties equally, when it is clear you cannot morally compare occupied and massacred Palestine with the occupying state, Israel, which also possesses military superiority and acts on the margins of international law,” said Maduro.
The Venezuelan president has called for an emergency meeting of the United Nations Human Rights Council to condemn the Israeli regime for its atrocities and policy of genocide against the Palestinian population in Gaza.
Meanwhile, Bolivian President Evo Morales has also condemned the Israeli invasion of Gaza, saying it was time to take action “to end the genocide that Israel is carrying out on Palestine.””
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/07/21/372151/israel-committing-genocide-in-gaza/
Bahhummingbug
“…….Are you insane … or just a stubbornly cold-hearted sob Mr. Summers? Israel has the very latest in sophisticated (mostly U.S. supplied) weaponry, the ‘Palestinians’ have bottle rockets*…….”
I appreciate your response. My wife would probably vote for the second choice. Who (in the world) doesn’t know that Israel has the latest weaponry? Hamas knows that better than anyone. This is a replay of Operation Cast Lead where 1500 Palestinians died (~1000 civilians). Who also doesn’t know that the rockets fired by Hamas into Israel (while deadly) are militarily ineffectual? Hamas knows it. So what good do the rockets do Hamas? What good does kidnapping and killing three Jewish teens do when Hamas understands fully the consequences of the murders (especially when the leader of Hamas after forming a unity government with Abbas applauds the actions – likely at his orders)?
This is not a military battle in Gaza. Hamas knew the outcome. They knew that children would be killed. They knew that Gaza has one of the highest population densities in the world – an almost impossible location to avoid civilian casualties. Yet, Hamas continues to launch “bottle rockets” at the IDF from civilian locations knowing what will take place. No one who has a brain is surprised by the response of Israel. So Hamas plainly knew what they were doing – and the consequences. Who can deny that?
Hamas is in a desperate situation in Gaza. They can’t govern and have little support from the Arabs (especially Egypt). Former ally Syria is battered and Hezbollah is knee deep in that civil war. Iran has been severely weakened economically by the sanctions. The Middle East is chaotic at the moment with competing interests and forces which includes the Arab Spring. Hamas was completely alone and isolated. The injustices of this conflict had fallen way down the list on people’s “care” list – at least where Hamas and Gaza is concerned.
Hamas has a list of grievances they want addressed and no way to address them because they certainly won’t give in to Israel’s demand that they recognize Israel’s right to exist and renounce violence because their whole existence is about resistance through violence and continual war. So this is a planned strategy by Hamas using civilians – especially children – for purposes of propaganda to address grievances like easing or ending the Israeli embargo and doing something about the border crossings. For the propaganda war, dead Palestinians are a winning strategy, the more the better; the more children killed the better; the more pictures taken for the world audience the better; and the more bombings by Israel the better. Terms like genocidal, massacre, slaughter and indiscriminate are extremely useful. And no one should be surprised by Hamas turning down the cease fire proposed by Egypt and accepted immediately by Netanyahu. That would have gained Hamas nothing so sacrificing more civilians and children continues (strategically).
It’s a part of the propaganda war being waged in the international arena by the Palestinians – most of the propaganda is conducted in a peaceful and effective manner by Abbas.
Finally, this site beautifully illustrates how effective propaganda can be to sway public opinion. Nothing brings the fringe left out like the IP conflict. If only such outrage was expressed for other conflicts and human suffering – but it isn’t.
you delusionnaly wrote ” What good does kidnapping and killing three Jewish teens do when Hamas understands fully the consequences of the murders (especially when the leader of Hamas after forming a unity government with Abbas applauds the actions – likely at his orders)?”
But you know like me that there is not a single proof of any involvement of the Hamas in this kidnapping…
However this kidnapping was the first excuse used by Israeli Prime Minister to strike Gaza !
You guys are super scared of me…. relax… relax… we haven’t even seen each other face to face yet.
Let’s set a time and date for a public debate. I will debate anyone from your cult, whether it be Greenwald, Scahill, Amy Goodman, Chris Hayes etc… I thought youse geyes used your woids well… above average… I’m just a nobody… right?
What’dya say cowards? Public Debate?
Now, for the coup d’grace..
http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.newsweek.com%2Fmedia%2F70%2Ftip_report.pdf
Notice any of this work around here?
I don’t think these tactics work anymore. I’m watching Peter Lerner say “civilians are not our targets. it’s hamaz who chose to escalate the situation further…” Everything he is saying has no emotional effect. I know he’s lying.
Not entirely. Israel accepted the cease fire offer proposed by Egypt. hamas chose to continue the “struggle”.
Well sooprise sooprise sooprise….. from deep inside Israel, an Israeli Dr. totally refutes a visiting American Rabbi’s version of Hamas’ “assault” on Israel…..
Dr. Hillel Ben Sasson writes:
quote” Reading the words of the anonymous rabbi in recounting his fear in face the warning sirens alerting Jerusalemites of Hamas rockets, I was both enraged and ashamed.
I was enraged by the lack of comprehension he showed to the situation in which we – Israelis and Palestinians – have been living for as long as we remember. I was born in Jerusalem in 1979 and lived here for most of my life. An officer in the IDF still fulfilling my reserve duty, I have lived through three wars (Lebanon I – 1982; Gulf I – 1991; Lebanon II – 2006), two Intifada uprisings of the occupied Palestinians (1987; 2000) and three military operations in Gaza (Cast Lead – 2008; Pillar of Defense – 2012; Protective Edge – 2014). Some of these I experienced in uniform. I am also raising two young children in Jerusalem.
For us living here, the current military operation and the ongoing drizzle of rockets are neither unbearable nor threatening in an existential way. Iron Dome has enabled Israelis to continue with their normal lives neither terrified nor terrorized. While the Gazans are rained with high-precision ton-heavy bombs falling with no sirens or alert system, we in Jerusalem have heard three sirens in the past nine days, and witnessed no rocket falling.
When the siren went off in that Saturday afternoon mentioned by the rabbi, I was sitting with my family in a park right across to the Shalom Hartman Institute, compared in his narrative to an U-Boat under attack. From the park where we were picnicking, as it happened, I could see the rocket being intercepted several miles south to Jerusalem, above Hebron, and in contrast to the rabbi’s Dresdenian depiction.
In a cross check with a senior Haaretz correspondent, it turns out that none of the rockets even got close to central Jerusalem – hits were located only around Hebron and Ramat Raziel (a village miles to the west of the city) probably a result of shrapnel from Iron Dome’s interceptions. This gets nowhere near WWII (the very comparison is preposterous if not offensive to survivors of that terrible war).
I am enraged because the rabbi is presumably a tourist in my city and country, yet in the name of his spiritual and cultural connection to the holy land he feels free to act as its spokesman. By generalizing his personal sense of fear and acting as a spokesman for those who actually carry the burden of living in Israel, the rabbi grossly exaggerated the impact of Hamas terror on Jerusalem and portrayed it with unduly epic dimensions. In so doing, he distorts the actual power imbalance in this tragic situation, in addition to victimizing me and my fellow Israeli citizens.
As a society, we are a (powerful) side in this conflict, not a helpless victim. To avoid any misunderstanding, I would like to clarify that I am far from disregarding the fear and anxiety felt by many Israelis who are in the line of fire day after day. Writing about Jerusalem however – a city that witnessed three sirens and not even one hit of a rocket – in the way that the rabbi adopted is simply absurd. This absurdity might indicate that his experience is influenced less by concrete reality and more by his already existing perception of victimhood. And this brings me to shame.
The blinding victimhood embodied in the rabbi’s comments is shameful because it points at an abject moral, spiritual and leadership failure. In the very same Jerusalem and on the very same days, young religious Jews have burnt alive an innocent Palestinian teenager, in the name of national revenge. In this very city, racist Jewish hooligans are marching every night, seeking Arab scapegoats, cracking down on other Jews who dare answer back to them, shouting slogans such as “death to the Arabs” and “A Jew has a Soul, and Arab is a son of a whore”.
Where is the cry of this anonymous rabbi against these far more worrisome threats to our existence and future? How dare American rabbis who keep silent these days continue and call themselves religious shepherds? As an observant Jew, I am ashamed at how few were the courageous voices who took into heart the words of Rabbi A. J. Heschel who marched at Selma with Martin Luther King Jr.: “Few might be guilty – but all are responsible”.
The rabbi’s anonymity, it turns out, is but a metaphor for his inacceptable silence on the real enemies of the Jewish society in Israel – the extremist hateful enemies from within.
No, rabbi, you got it wrong. The rockets are not really scary nor are they a true existential threat. Racism, radicalism, and religious intoxication from brute power has become an imminent danger to our old and beloved peoplehood. When people are accustomed to hearing that they are perpetual innocent victims of Palestinian aggression, they eventually translate they frustration into rage and start seeking justice in revenge. If you continue looking up to the sky, you will not notice that the house is already burning from within. “unquote
Shades of truth from the horses mouth.. burning from within. Gee…whudda thunk…
god I’d kill for a rolling eyes smiley button
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/07/from-inside-and-outside-the-iron-dome-once-again/374709/?google_editors_picks=true
wow, i’ve been trying to post the link to AJE livestream, and my post’s don’t show up. Strange.
Using your same moniker and email addy, have you tried using Tor? That’s what I do when I get snagged by the Intercept’s spam-filter bullshit. And be sure you only post ONE link per post.
Haven’t used Tor yet. Maybe I should start using it.
Thank you Mona for those earlier links. Heartbreaking they were.
Ban Ki Moon condemned Israeli actions today. – that damned Islamic terrorist anti semite. How dare he.
What really happened with NBC and Ayman Mohyeldin
By Brian Stelter
I think the bolded bit is evidence from another source/reporter in support of Glenn’s contention that he had off-the-record discussions with current NBC employees.
I wonder what their particular ratings concerns were while they had a reporter producing vivid story after story of the brutality that is existence in Gaza right now?
The rest of it reads, imho, like a skein of bullshit, lies and fog-of-war emissions. It’s a carefully crafted story that adheres to the timeline and introduces enough ‘hazards-of-the-bidness’ hogwash to sound vaguely convincing to those who haven’t been paying attention and/or have an adolescent need to still BELIEEEEEEVE! in whatever authoritarian figure moves their junk. In the meantime, a few feinting flowers, previously enamored of his prospects (when NBC paid him prime money to move from Al Jazeera’s boudoir to theirs), suddenly weren’t quite convinced he had the “right stuff”.
Suddenly the fruits of their reporter coup weren’t quite so enticing.
Eyebrows, I tells ya!!!
This is classic he said/she said obfuscation. And the sad thing is, you’d think these people would be able to afford someone who could do this in a much more convincing fashion.
As my grandmother used to say, “Aren’t you gettin’ a bit big for your britches over there?”
Mr. Verdi, how’s that working for you now?
And the cherry in the sunday (I say “in” because it was buried near the end of the story):
This summarization, from the very last paragraph, works for me:
http://money.cnn.com/2014/07/20/media/ayman-mohyeldin-nbc-news/index.html
Now, if we could only crack the AIPAC encryption on Congress….
In other words, there are two reason Mohyeldin might have been removed: 1. He was expressing too much empathy with Gazans, and 2. There was a ratings concern about him expressing too much empathy for Gazans.
pfffft
Today Barack Obama talked to Binyamin Netanyahu to CONDEMN Gaza’s (feeble) attempts at resisting-being-violated, and to reiterate his SUPPORT for Zionist murderous bullying and the right of Israel to ‘defend’ itself with devastating violence against innocent people.
Nothing was said about Gazan’s right to (even feebly) defend themselves, but this is apparently typical.
Obama ‘raised concerns’ about mounting civilian casualties, but seemingly in such a weak manner that Netanyahu thanked him for his support. (Obama has expressed concern previously for the civilian casualties he himself causes with drones, and bombing places like Libya – but the concern has never actually built to regret, behavioral change or admission of guilt, which has led some to conclude he’s merely mimicking empathy in much the same manner as sociopaths).
It is disheartening to say the least.
I did find this little tidbit interesting though:
“The US secretary of state in a conversation caught on an open microphone before an interview has apparently expressed his concern with the deadly Israeli attacks which have been killing civilians in the besieged Gaza Strip.
“It’s a hell of a pinpoint operation. It’s a hell of a pinpoint operation,” said John Kerry in an apparent sarcastic remark aimed at Israeli authorities who claim they are trying to avoid civilian casualties by carrying out pinpoint operations against members of the Hamas resistance movement.
“We’ve got to get over there … I think, John, we ought to go tonight. I think it’s crazy to be sitting around,” he added.”
Link at: http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/07/20/372135/kerrys-hot-mic-reaction-to-gaza/
What really happened with NBC and Ayman Mohyeldin
http://money.cnn.com/2014/07/20/media/ayman-mohyeldin-nbc-news/
Some of the people commenting on this board might be interested in reading this condensed version of history regarding “The Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict.” This is an old objective work which makes it effective for combating Zionist propaganda directed against Americans.
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html
A great article from the Intercept. and probably a contributing factor to NBC’s reversal.
….And another piece of the puzzle in how western media has become corrupted.
WAY O/T BUT EXTREMELY INTERESTING AND IMPORTANT
Science confirms: Politics wrecks your ability to do math
Everybody knows that our political views can sometimes get in the way of thinking clearly. But perhaps we don’t realize how bad the problem actually is. According to a new psychology paper, our political passions can even undermine our very basic reasoning skills. More specifically, the study finds that people who are otherwise very good at math may totally flunk a problem that they would otherwise probably be able to solve, simply because giving the right answer goes against their political beliefs.
The study, by Yale law professor Dan Kahan and his colleagues, has an ingenious design. At the outset, 1,111 study participants were asked about their political views and also asked a series of questions designed to gauge their ‘numeracy,’ that is, their mathematical reasoning ability. Participants were then asked to solve a fairly difficult problem that involved interpreting the results of a (fake) scientific study. But here was the trick: While the fake study data that they were supposed to assess remained the same, sometimes the study was described as measuring the effectiveness of a “new cream for treating skin rashes.” But in other cases, the study was described as involving the effectiveness of “a law banning private citizens from carrying concealed handguns in public.”
The result? Survey respondents performed wildly differently on what was in essence the same basic problem, simply depending upon whether they had been told that it involved guns or whether they had been told that it involved a new skin cream. What’s more, it turns out that highly numerate liberals and conservatives were even more — not less — susceptible to letting politics skew their reasoning than were those with less mathematical ability. …
http://grist.org/politics/science-confirms-politics-wrecks-your-ability-to-do-math/
@ barncat:
This indicates that political group affiliation might interfere with reasoning abilities in general.
Nice.
Absolutely! If that weren’t true, the study would be worthless. The reason a math problem was used is because mathematical reasoning involves zero emotion — it’s pure reason. So the only way to explain the difference in results is the emotions that were triggered by the politically charged labels. There’s no other possible explanation.
And then, the fact that there was a correlation between emotional effect and math proficiency makes the study even more fascinating and significant. The better people are at reasoning, the more susceptible they are to having their thinking distorted by emotion or bias? Is that what one would expect? This study seems very significant to me.
a good companion to this piece
http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2010/07/11/how_facts_backfire/?page=full
“The better people are at reasoning, the more susceptible they are to having their thinking distorted by emotion or bias? Is that what one would expect?”
Possibly but only within the context of group think, after multiple pre-study trials and at least 3 final studies.
The final studies must include an X, Y and Neutral Group all provided with exactly the same material for evaluation consisting of specifically selected data for known group emotional responses and biases of all three groups in relation to a given skill set (all of which must be established by pre-trial study results) ; and that would somehow be manipulated by an altering emotional or bias factor. These responses would then be evaluated against the pre-study group think patterns for deviation from the expected emotional response/bias. This study would have to be repeated with different participants several times before one could conclude that those who exhibit “better reasoning skills” are more susceptible to having their thinking distorted by emotion or bias.
Before this was done, all three groups would have to be consistently polled (at least 3 times) to establish which members of the groups had the highest reasoning skills related to a specific skill set required to answer the questions postulated in the final study phase, and to validate group think reasoning patterns. Only those study participants exhibiting the highest level of reasoning ability in the preliminary studies could be included in the final studies to accurately and measurably evaluate deviations based on the expected emotions or biases associated with the respective groups.
It could be done, but it is long study and honestly, I wouldn’t know what results to expect.
Hi barncat – and Lyra! and BenjaminAP
First of all, thanks for that link, barncat. I found it really fascinating, especially as I’m a math person. It’s so EASY to leap to the wrong conclusion based on the “bigger” number as the article mentions. I had to calculate or I’d have been wrong! I’m not sure your last statement is exactly correct according to the article. They do posit that even numerate people are less likely to get an answer right that did NOTT support their view. They also speculate that one of two things may occur in those instances. Either the mistake makers jump to a conclusion and fail to do any calculations to check it (the authors seem to favor that one) or they do check but refuse to accept the correct answer. Guess we’d all better be on the alert so WE don’t fall into such traps.
And Thanks BenjaminAP for that link and article. If I’m correct it talks about why “facts” don’t seem to get through to people.
Note to the TI techs: it would have been nice to read Benjamin’s post, but it was so long and squashed I found it too frustrating to get through.
I will have to go to that link though- is sounds like something similar to what I’ve read before but never bookmarked or anything.
This is the THIRD time I’ve tried to post this comment!
Thanks for this link, barncat. I found the article fascinating as I’m a math person (who did the calculations because I sensed it might be easy to get the wrong conclusion – based on the “big” number). I thin it’s worth noting something the authors said: it seemed that numerate folks who jumped to a wrong conclusion supporting their “bias” either: a) jumped to that conclusion and didn’t calculate or check further ( they seemed to favor that one) or b) jumped to the conclusion did calculate but didn’t accept the correct answer.
That’s a great Segway to BenjaminAP’s link (thanks, I read about this, but never bookmarked it at the time!)
Note to the TI tech staff. Isn’t it time to upgrade the comments board? I don’t complain too much ahd haven’t found it too hard to deal with for the most part; but just trying to read Benjamin’s post was very frustrating. It was too squashed and vertical, and since most of it was in that blockquote format or whatever, a bit fainter and not as easy to read as regular text. C’mon. How long is “temporary” supposed to last, really? An upgrade is needed and would be appreciated.
feline16, that was my fault, I screwed up on the blockquotes somehow. Apologies.
Greenwald tries to attack Elizabeth Warren on twitter – Uses right wing source:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/07/19/1315043/-Greenwald-tries-to-attack-Elizabeth-Warren-on-twitter-Uses-right-wing-source#
That was some bullshit, Glenn…. yet, I expect that underhanded punk-pussy bullshit from a Libertarian Fame-Seeking Capitalist pig like you :D
Tudaloo Muthafuckas!
Plenty of sources to confirm her phony persona. She’s totally in the tank for Israel. That’s why she’ll make an excellent DNC candidate in 2016. Now go fishing, obot.
First off… go fuck yourself! Second, I don’t give a fuck about Obama, except he has made my life much better than Edward Snowden has because now I have medical insurance. Third, prove what you say is true… provide links you bitch-ass lying pussy!
It is not about who asked the question, it is about the politician’s failure to respond. Cowards who do not speak out on the slaughter of innocents deserve to be called out, and if the right-wing is doing it (however weakly), then so be it. The democrats are a bunch of spineless cowards.
The Democrats certainly ARE spineless cowards, however…. when you fucking bitch ass cowards turned your back on anything Left, especially the ABANDONMENT OF THE ANTIWAR MOVEMENT, so you could elect the first black president and rid yourself of the white guilt in your souls, I was still standing up for the people of Iraq and vetrans… you pussy cocksucking cowards were licking Obama’s asshole…. now you’re licking Greenwalds asshole… and he is sucking Rand Paul’s cock!
You pieces of shit make me sick! I would take Elizabeth Warren over Rand Paul or any piece of shit Libertarian candidate that crawls out from under that piece of shit rock known as Texas! Motherfuckers, go fuck yourselves! Capitalist pig sellout scumbags…. fickle non-committal, opportunist pieces of shit!
Impressive explosive diarrhea from the rectal-cranial inverted. Your folks must be so proud.
as long as some spray got in your mouth and eyes I feel relieved!
Good heavens, the random-comment generator has overloaded. Someone tell the Agency, toot sweet!
Ima gonna retool a theme I’ve become a bit famous for. I don’t give a flying fuck if Adolph Hitler II took that video clip, as long as it is authentic.
The actual, and only important issue is that this is happening, and Warren cravenly defends the vile perpetrator of it: https://twitter.com/GazanPal/status/490780360863932416
“……..Ima gonna retool a theme I’ve become a bit famous for. I don’t give a flying fuck if Adolph Hitler II took that video clip, as long as it is authentic……”
I think I understand more clearly than ever now Mona. You are a nutcase to be sure.
Yes, Craig, because only people, locked up in psych wards understand that a video or paper document is true on its own merits, or not, regardless of who recorded it.
Deeply psychotic, that fantastical belief.
The thing is, what you’re telling the often times extremely wordy CraigSummers is about the most simple bit of common sense that anyone with or without common sense could ever come across. CraigSummers has a tendency or habit of being selectively obtuse.
Hi kitt
You are slowly loosening up. Mona came unglued because so and so referred to her as a Nazi on this thread today which stemmed from a comment she made a week or two ago.
“…….. I’m telling ya, [email protected], you are hitting the limit on this inane hate-spewing. That’s not what this comments section is for, and Glenn isn’t going to let you hijack it with boatloads of bullshit……”
And just to calm down tensions – and Mona said it knowingly – she mad light of the comment from last week despite calling someone a hater for referring to her as a Nazi today. She threatened to have him/her removed – i.e., moderated. My point is quit saying stupid things if you are sensitive to what people call you. And if you are sensitive to what people say, then you should be sensitive to what you call others – like a “fuck”, for example.
That’s why Mona is somewhat of a nutcase. Trust me Mona, I’ve been called every name in the book so it doesn’t bother me. I expect it because I’m posting on another classic anti American site – and some of the biggest bigots and haters are fringe leftists. By the way, most of the name calling at the Guardian came from Greenwald threads and supporters.
Thanks Mona and Kitt. It’s always a pleasure to talk with both of you.
You are wrong Craig. I saw that right off.
She threatened to have him/her removed – i.e., moderated. My point is quit saying stupid things if you are sensitive to what people call you.
If you think I give a shit that [email protected], of all people, rants about my being a Nazi, you are deluded. No, what I explained to that lunatic, is that his volume of disruptive bullshit was approaching levels for which Glenn has canned him at least once before.
It’s the volume of crap that Glenn doesn’t want, from anyone. Moreover, *I* cannot have anyone “removed.”
That’s totally Glenn’s call.
I’ve been in email contact with him today, and he did nothing at all to indicate he has issues with my volume. Indeed, many here have thanked me for all the info and links.
My kingdom for an edit button. Anyway, this bit should be blockquoted, as they are Craig’s words:
@Blacklisted, Unemployed & Pissed!:
You are obviously commenting on this board with the express purpose of discrediting Mr. Greenwald. You should be having your conversations in private not on his comment board which is only serving to irritate other people and identify you as a fowl-mouthed troll who is getting-off on some ill-perceived, meaningless, and self-serving comment board spam victory.
You are highly deluded regarding any such victory. You are an idiot who is willfully digging his own grave.
if you give me a paycheck i’ll stop… I learned this tactic from Greenwald, Scahill, Mrs. Goodman, Chris Hayes, Kadouchebag…. they are all my heroes :D
They go on and on playing their silly little game at the dailykos. “Democwats good; everybody else bad.”
First I’ve ever heard that a camera lens can be partisan.
Obama wrings his hands and plucks worriedly at his pantaloons…..
http://www.businessinsider.com/obama-tells-israeli-prime-minister-he-has-serious-concerns-about-increasing-palestinian-casualties-2014-7http://www.businessinsider.com/obama-tells-israeli-prime-minister-he-has-serious-concerns-about-increasing-palestinian-casualties-2014-7
Wherein he invokes the here-to-fore requisite incantation:
Ritual dances. Required scripting. Ornately elevated protocols to avoid bitter words and scathing glances incurred when the occasionally serendipitous acquisition of the softest of semi-stiffies lends sufficient (though ephemeral) courage to vocalize the rare, and extraordinarily mildly apologetic condemnation.
What did they call those subservient, adult males at court?
Eunuch.
Yes, that is the word I was looking for.
Yes, although it’s worth remembering that in Middle Eastern history, the Grand Vizier was often a eunuch. The factor of “minus two” didn’t always mean powerlessness. And at least under the Ottoman Empire, the leadership in Constantinople had no ambivalence about who was running Jerusalem and Gaza and wouldn’t brook any disorder.
Exactly. But Obama is no Varys.
An interview with human rights lawyer Raji Sourani in Gaza: “We are just soft targets. We are very cheap.”
http://www.normanfinklestein.com/2014/these-are-war-crimes-just-as-simple-as-that-unless-you-work-for-human-rights-watch
Notice that it was NBC “executives” who chose to pull the reporter from Gaza. My aim is not to vilify individuals but rather the role in society that is identified by “executive”. You can, and should, measure with your own emotional reactions the attitude you have toward various groups. If the group known as “executives” elicit excitement/joy or other positive responses in you, then you are likely to turn a “bling eye” as executives meander among inaapropriate, unacceptable, and downright evil activities, policies and decisions, alogn with their “public relations” do-goodies. On the other hand, if you learn to associate the idea of an “executive” with backsliding on the road of societal progression, then you start to look for the alternative, which is for regular, everyday people to steward their societies, free from the interference and downright destructivity of the corporate construct piloted by the “exectutive”. Watch fascism give way to universal solidarity, equity & justice. Wow, I see “we the people” moving strong today. Fascinating. Exciting times ahead for all regular, everyday people.
Wow.
I don’t read Hebrew. If anyone else out there does, could you please confirm the translation?
@cram
“doug wood, The quran can’t be read just like that. It’s not like reading books or bible. That verse you read probably about what had happened at that time. ”
I am not a student of the Qur’an. I was a student journalist and world traveler at the time a tribe of Saudi princes came to my home. So I was quick to ask probing questions about international policy. It was shocking that they were so open and truthful about what I considered could have been state secrets.
Their authority comes from the Qur’an. Believers know Allah has already determined the beginning and end, the term, of individuals and states. It is a religion of fate. Anyone who tries to affect the future via conversation does not believe in Allah. Not telling the truth is a mark of a nonbeliever. So I read the Qur’an and other history books like The Life and Times of Mohammad by Garuud (forgive my spelling). The Qur’an is relevant to the future of Israel.
There is nothing more evil than killing women and children.
Oversimplification.
Yes I know. Just a day in a lifetime. I have enjoyed reading your insights and clarifications.
“Decree & Destiny: Free Will or Determinism” elaborates on this issue:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00IAR5PE6
That statement: “Anyone who tries to affect the future via conversation does not believe in Allah” is utterly false.
Forgive me, I meant not telling the truth as an issue of faith. The Sauds seem to have a strict adherence to the rules of faith. And to their fate.
Tried to buy it, out of print and I do not have a Kindle, yet. Thanks.
The Life and Times of Muhammad by Glubb
@doug wood – “There is nothing more evil than killing women and children.”
I must ask this question, but let me phrase it the right way, as not to be twisted by the omnipresent sophists who troll the board… Why is the presumption of sacred innocence granted to women but not men in times of war? Yes, children ARE more innocent, if only by the circumstance of not accumulating the guilt that we all do by adulthood, but how are women automatically more sacred than men?
Are men somehow presumed to be profane and guilty during times of war, even if they have only accumulated the same relative guilt (participation in injustice) that we all share in, but not the guilt for war?
Indira Gandhi, Hillary Clinton, Margaret the Iron Bitch Thatcher all had uteruses, and all are/were some hawkish bitches! I don’t think your biological formulation is relevant to the modern world.
Just had to get that out! Thanks for reading, and I hope I spark a massive shit storm!
Not me. It was my simplified interpretation of values. In fact, the woman is expendable to save the child. Western doctors have no permission to choose.
Are you a Salafist or a Christian Evangelical? It is becoming increasingly difficult to discern between the two identities.
Not me. This is the law in Saudi Arabia.
No shitstorm from me. Many, many times I’ve had the same thought when seeing the phrase “women and children.”
Could it be that traditionally, it’s been the men who mostly fought wars?
I don’t know what those Saudi princes meant, but the Islamic Law (Shariah) I’m aware of, and accept, prohibits the harming of all non-combatants, including off-duty soldiers, be they men or women.
I’ve not dug into the classical Islamic Law to find out what it says about children who are in combat.
It puts a lot of other restrictions that were suitable for its times, but certain principles can be derived from them.
For example, it prohibits the use of fire.
So, does it mean the napalm and nuclear bombs are un-Islamic?
Certainly, the use of fire throwers are.
It also prohibits the destruction and contamination of wells (water supplies) and
Indira Gandhi, Hillary Clinton, Margaret the Iron Bitch Thatcher all had uteruses, and all are/were some hawkish bitches! I don’t think your biological formulation is relevant to the modern world.
You’re absolutely correct in your examples. I would add Condoleeza Rice and Samantha Powers to that list. And women probably shouldn’t be given an across-the-board pass. But until you can point to a country where the equivalent of the following has occurred, with the sexes flipped, I think a case can still be made (though, obviously, I am biased).
It has happened in Ivory Coast and Nigeria as well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_of_Liberia_Mass_Action_for_Peace
Recommended.
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/07/from-inside-and-outside-the-iron-dome-once-again/374709/
For the sake of Israel, I would ask people to condemn Israeli actions in as many venues as possible.
Hamas is obviously hoping that Israel will launch a full scale invasion and take over the administration of Gaza, which they themselves have not done very successfully. This would probably improve the welfare of Gaza, and would also enshrine Hamas as the underground resistance – a role in which they will receive a great deal of public support. In addition, once the fiction of Gaza as an autonomous administrative entity is dispensed with, Israel will come under more international pressure to expand the civil rights of the Palestinians and ultimately to progress towards a possible one state solution (which is anathema to Israel).
While Israel obviously will be wary of falling into such a trap, simply withdrawing after having inflicted damage on Gaza will allow Hamas to take credit for repelling an invasion. Things will then return to the status quo except that Hamas’ domestic position will have been enhanced and Fatah will once again appear irrelevant.
So Israel’s best option is to withdraw reluctantly, not because of resistance by Hamas, but due to increasing international pressure. The US is an unreliable ally who will not provide this pressure, but will simply vote unanimously in the Senate to support Israel’s actions, whatever they may be. This is not helpful, as it provides no cover for Israel. John Kerry will show no leadership, but will highlight his own irrelevance by making ineffective appeals for Hamas to respect the cease fire. So once more, for the sake of Israel, please condemn Israeli actions in as many venues as possible.
I have a slightly different take… I have refrained from posting much political stuff on Facebook, but I just posted something about this slaughter. Silence kills. We do indeed need everyone with a conscience to stand up and say something despite the inevitable vitriolic backlash from Israel-Firsters. I do not care if I lose facebook friends over this. It is a small thing when compared to this carnage. I would ask people to condemn Israel for war crimes, not for Israeli’s sake, but because they are fucking war crimes.
Israel does care about PR and the support of Americans, so it’s important to keep pointing out that what they are doing is unjust, disproportionate, and immoral, independently of any political calculations.
The Israeli leadership has become so perverse in its inhumanity that the the atrocities of the last 24 hours seem to be a response to the whole world’s outrage about the death of the 4 boys on the beach.
— You want dead children, we’ll give you dead children.–
I didn’t go so far as to say that Israel is deliberately provoking the outrage – but a good argument could be made that they knew the conditions in Gaza and the inevitability of high civilian casualties since they have done this before. I was just pointing out that every war must have an exit strategy and because they can’t easily withdraw, due to political pressures at home, they may be reliant on world outrage to force them to stop. They really don’t want to destroy Hamas because they would then be forced to run Gaza themselves. Nor do they want to replace Hamas – Israel doesn’t want a partner for peace since they wish to impose peace on their own terms. It is much easier to impose something on your own terms when you have a partner who refuses to negotiate with you.
quote”For the sake of Israel, I would ask people to condemn Israeli actions in as many venues as possible.”unquote
For the sake of those thousands of human beings who were tortured and murdered under Benito Mussolini”s fascist regime, I would ask people to condemn this deviant slimeball masquerading as a murdering 20th century dictator, in as many comments as possible.
Your appeal comes a bit too late, this being the 21st century. Mine, however, is more timely.
Indeed, Duce, though the temptation to escalate, or simply the power of events, may have the IDF occupying the whole place whether they meant to at start. And warning them might not help: one example from history is Bonaparte and Russia. When Caulaincourt was ambassador in St. Petersburg, Tsar Alexander I warned Caulaincourt that if Bonaparte invaded, he would fall back to Kamchatka if necessary, and thus consume Bonaparte’s forces. Caulaincourt did pass the warning on to the Emperor, but, the rest, they say, is history.
There’s also South Africa, where they had a, shall we say, a “one state” solution after the peace treaty of Vereeneging in 1902. In the short run, the defeated Boer republics came under British imperial rule, but wound up getting to govern all of South Africa, including the English speaking bits. In the long run, of course, the Boer occupation began to wear thin as well. Occupation has a way of producing unexpected outcomes, it seems.
The sublimated guilt of the world’s superpower played no small part in that erosion.
Whereas Nut-and-Yahoo said, 9/11 was “Very Good” for US-Israeli relations.
BDS has a tough hill to climb.
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/12/us/day-terror-israelis-spilled-blood-seen-bond-that-draws-2-nations-closer.html
Indeed, and if the USS Liberty incident didn’t put the US off, what will? (Although you have to wonder why the same president, in the same 4-year span, seemed to think the USS Maddox and Turner Joy warranted a forcible response, and the USS Liberty and USS Pueblo didn’t. Maybe one war was plenty by 1967).
For that matter, Bibi’s endorsement of Mitt Romney should not have been “very good” for his relations with Barry, but so far, Bibi still seems to be getting his war toys. Those 155mm shells don’t grow on olive or date trees in Galilee.
Deepa Kumar on the framing of the Gaza narrative by Israel and the US:
“And you have to ask where does this framing actually come from and, in fact, there is a propaganda handbook that was produced back in 2009. It’s called the Israel Project’s 2009 Global Language Dictionary in which they have a sort of step by step, five-step approach, if you will, about how Israeli spokespeople should talk about civilian casualties in Gaza. So the first speaking point is show empathy. In fact, I’m quoting from the handbook. It says, ‘All human life is precious. We understand that the loss of one innocent Palestinian life is every bit as tragic as the loss of an Israeli life.’ Then go on to admission, as a second step, ‘We admit that Israel isn’t always successful at preventing civilian casualty.’ Third step is effort saying, ‘We’re trying to stop civilian casualties,’ etc. Ultimately, it’s about turning the table. That’s step five. Blame Hamas. Say that it’s a tragedy that Hamas continues to want to perpetuate this so-called war, whatever. Because they didn’t accept the ceasefire agreement, it’s Hamas to blame right now. And it’s truly shocking and callous that that is the framework that has also been adopted by the US spokespeople so that we have very little empathy. We’re not asked to feel sad for the innocent people who are being killed by Israeli gunfire.”
From *Podcast: Deepa Kumar on Anti-Muslim Racism Behind NSA Surveillance, Media’s Coverage of Gaza* Transcript included.
http://dissenter.firedoglake.com/2014/07/20/podcast-deepa-kumar-on-anti-muslim-racism-behind-nsa-surveillance-medias-coverage-of-gaza/
Thank you Cindy. It never ceases to amaze me what hides in plain sight.
“Ultimately, it’s about turning the table.”
There’s a view that ‘public relations’ or ‘public manipulation’ has existed since the dawn of man, starting with storytelling around the fire and so forth. I just read a piece apologizing for the recent Facebook scandal that more or less takes this tact. “Get over it. Advertising is everywhere, advertising is history, advertising is human nature.” Ethics come after I suppose. Rights? Possibly never.
But I think the system and industry that became known as ‘public relations’, operates on a much different model of the human being than our ancestors assumed around the campfire. At least, I don’t think the shaman sought to exploit his audience based on first principles. PR, a purposefully banal term, Edward Bernays’ euphemism for propaganda, always sees ignorance as a foothold. Something to leverage. Arbitrage. I wonder what Arendt would say of this “Global Language Dictionary”.
Dennis Kucinich *Israel Invades Gaza Because It Can*
“Israel invades Gaza because it can. Gazans, in the face of an invasion, have no ability to strike back, while Israel strikes forward. Israel has total military superiority, an air force which can knock and then bomb, a navy which can shell Gazans from miles off shore, an army which can roll tanks into Gaza nonstop. Gazans have no army, navy, or air force with which to defend. Israel, as any nation, has a right to defend itself, but it confuses offense with defense. It is on the offensive in Gaza. Israel, with its overwhelming military strength, is attacking and invading Gaza in violation of international and U.S. law. Its construction of settlements violates the Oslo agreement. Its Central Bank dries up the Gaza economy and blocks payments to Gazan civil servants. Its total control brings the Palestinians to utter subjection and total despair. Israel can kill, injure, and humiliate Palestinians at will, with impunity, which is exactly what gave rise to Hamas and strengthens Hamas’ hold in Gaza, even as the IDF advances.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dennis-j-kucinich/israel-invades-gaza_b_5598535.html
I’m no Israeli apologist, but Kucinich believes in chemtrails, and is not to be taken seriously, in my opinion.
GREAT article by Mr. Kucinich. Definitely worth reading.
Kucinich also believes in chemtrails……
In today’s theology lesson, we turn to Deuteronomy. Deuteronomy is the fifth book of the Biblical Old Testament, or, more exactly, the fifth book in the Hebrew Torah. It is a book of law; Deut. 20 discusses their conduct of war.
We are supposed to, I think, read this “make its people an offer of peace” as ‘make its people an offer we know they cannot in dignity accept, and call it an offer of peace’.
Just a small matter of interpretation. Israel is always righteous! The Flower of the Desert! D:<
Matthew Henry’s Concise Commentary
20:10-12 The Israelites are here directed about the nations on whom they made war. Let this show God’s grace in dealing with sinners. He proclaims peace, and beseeches them to be reconciled. Let it also show us our duty in dealing with our brethren. Whoever are for war, we must be for peace. Of the cities given to Israel, none of their inhabitants must be left. Since it could not be expected that they should be cured of their idolatry, they would hurt Israel. These regulations are not the rules of our conduct, but Christ’s law of love. …
Question: “Why did God command the extermination / genocide of the Canaanites, women and children included?”
This is honestly a very difficult issue. We do not fully understand why God would command such a thing, but at the same time we trust God that He is just – and recognize that we are incapable of fully understanding a sovereign, infinite, and eternal God. As we look at difficult issues such as this one, we have to remember that God’s ways are higher than our ways and His thoughts are higher than our thoughts (Isaiah 55:9; Romans 11:33-36). We have to be willing to trust God and have faith in Him even when we do not understand His ways….
In regard to the Canaanites, God commanded, “However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them — the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites — as the LORD your God has commanded you. Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God” (Deuteronomy 20:16-18). The Israelites failed in this mission as well, and exactly what God said would happen occurred (Judges 2:1-3; 1 Kings 11:5; 14:24; 2 Kings 16:3-4). God did not order the extermination of these people to be cruel, but rather to prevent even greater evil from occurring in the future.
I am just amazed that there is anyone left int the world stupid enough to take such crap literally.
It’s useful to read their books and see what they may be thinking. Certainly, George W. Bush was on record as telling the President of France, before Operation Iraqi Fiasco started, that this was to be the final battle between Gog and Magog. Something about the end times or the Book of Revelations, apparently. (M. Chirac, on hanging up, probably put his forces on alert on the theory that the Leader of the Free World was either drunk or loony).
A pity that Omar Khayyam’s Rubaiyat didn’t become the dominant religion in that part of the world. The combatants might have had a wine-drinking contest but nothing worse than that.
The Israelites have always been conquering warriors – at one point waging war against their brother Judeans. Today, they continue their ancient spat with the Philistines, whose capital was Gaza.
The Israelites were combative warriors, that’s certain. Trouble was, they weren’t so successful when facing bigger empires like the Babylonians, the Assyrians, the Egyptians or the Romans — and they kept picking fights with the Romans in particular.
The God of the Bible is a tribal god, and that’s probably the root of a lot of problems. It’s what causes some people to think they are the “chosen people” (or “exceptional”), superior to others who can simply be exterminated in order to make way for the actual rulers of the world.
Thanks for identifying the source of this. I might have thought it was something from the holy book of those blood thirsty Muslims, you know, those barbarians who don’t value human life.
The Source Book of those “blood thirsty Muslims” reminds the Children of Israel that they were commanded by God to act justly —
–that if they kill one person, “unless it be [in punishment] for murder or for spreading corruption on earth”, it’s like they’ve killed all humankind,
–and if they save one life, it’s like saving the lives of the entire humankind,
–and not to “go on committing all manner of excesses on earth.” where these “excesses” refer to crimes of violence and, in particular, to the ruthless killing of human beings.
This is considered by the traditional Muslims to be a timeless and universal moral principle, though many Muslims are in violation of it.
What’s up with this one? What’s the moral principle here?
Surah Maidah 33-34: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned.
Muhammad Asad’s commentary might help you here:
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/private/cmje/religious_text/The_Message_of_The_Quran__by_Muhammad_Asad.pdf
But please keep in mind that there are portions of the Quran, especially those that were revealed in Madinah, need to be examined within the context of the Semitic culture and traditions of the day.
Many Muslims make the fatal mistake of not doing that. Consequently, they wreak havoc on earth.
@Sufi Muslim – Ok, his translation is on pg. 221 of the pdf:
5:33 It is but a just recompense for those who make war on God and His apostle,43and endeavour to spread corruption on earth, that they are being slain in great numbers, or crucified in great numbers, or have, in result of their perverseness, their hands and feet cut off in great numbers,44 or are being [entirely] banished from [the face of] the earth: such is their ignominy in this world45 But in the life to come [yet more] awesome suffering awaits them
So, he makes the verbs passive, and justifies it linguistically. Therefore, “the verse reveals itself immediately as a statement of fact – a declaration of the inescapability of the retribution which ‘those who make war on God’ bring upon themselves. Their hostility to ethical imperatives causes them to lose sight of all moral values; and their consequent mutual discord and ‘perverseness’ gives rise to unending strife among themselves for the sake of worldly gain and power: they kill one another in great numbers, and torture and mutilate one another in great numbers, with the result that whole communities are wiped out or, as the Qur’an puts it, ‘banished from [the face of] the earth’.”
But he also acknowledges that “Most of the classical commentators regard this passage as a legal injunction, and interpret it, therefore, as follows: [essentially what I quoted above]…. [But] In short, the attempt of the commentators to interpret the above verse as a “legal injunction” must be categorically rejected, however great the names of the persons responsible for it.”
So I’m wondering why a poor ignorant infidel like myself should trust this particular commentator instead of “most of the classical commentators” who interpret the verse as an injunction?
Sufi Muslim, the question goes back to your statement that “When someone says: ‘Islam says [insert text here]’, in reality, they are saying: ‘Islam, as I understand it, says [insert text here]'”. You immediately followed that up with an appeal to a majority opinion: “There are in fact those Muslims who commit violence against non-combatants and justify their actions from the Quran and Prophetic traditions, thereby presenting their actions as ‘Islamic’. But most Muslims have rejected their actions as bad to evil.” As I said, that makes perfect sense because if the text means whatever anyone thinks it means, then all we can do is take a vote — conduct a survey. Maybe you want to retract or clarify that statement? If not, then whenever the question is “what do Muslims believe (as Muslims)?”, I’m going to look for a scientific survey. You seem to want every one here to accept YOUR version of Islam, or the version of YOUR chosen commentators (which is the same thing), as authoritative, and I see absolutely no reason to do so.
Correction: He changed the tense of the verbs to present progressive. “On the other hand, a really convincing interpretation suggests itself to us at once as soon as we read the verse – as it ought to be read – in the present tense…”
@barncat
——
Taking a scientific poll is generally useful and accurate.
But, in certain cases, it can be very misleading, if the questions are not specific, or if a value judgement is incorrectly passed on the responses by those who give different meanings to certain actions and attitudes from the ones given by the responders.
For example, if you ask very conservative men in Saudi Arabia if they’d shake the hand of a woman who is not their grandmother, mother, sister, daughter, aunt, niece, or wife.
If the majority of the men polled say that they won’t, what does it tell a Westerner who is not familiar with that outer action and the meaning these men give to it?
Won’t a Westerner be wrong to pass a judgement based on what it means in the West, and not what it means to Saudi men?
A Westerner might conclude that these men are arrogant and even poke fun at them and ridicule them.
But, what if, these men consider it to be an act of respect?
Now turn the table around.
There are many, many Muslims who have not lived with the Westerners who think, quite genuinely, that the women in the West are being exploited and mistreated because they are “forced” by men, and society in general, to work and expose their bodies, which they consider to be shameful.
But, are these the meanings that are attached to these acts in the West?
Same actions, two opposite meanings.
Do you know what I’m getting at?
——
As for M. Asad’s commentary, his commentary is based on reason and linguist, and not entirely on exoteric tradition.
Furthermore, he treats the Quran as an integrated whole and interprets the Quran by the Quran, where parts of it elaborate, and magnify the meanings of, other parts.
He draws certain principles from key verses and examine other relevant parts in their light.
For example,
1. He points out that the verse, “Let there be no compulsion in religion”, establishes a key universal principle, and several verses, he then examine in its light.
2. The verses that call for warfare only in defence, he argues, form another universal principle, and then examine relevant verses in its light.
There are those who consider these verses to be abrogating other verses, a doctrine M. Asad rejects.
But this doesn’t mean that other, more traditional, scholars do not share his conclusions even though they employ different methodologies.
See, for example, this long edict on terrorism:
http://www.minhajbooks.com/images-books/Edict-Terrorism-Fitna-Khawarij/Edict-Terrorism-Fitna-Khawarij_1.pdf
You certainly are not obligated to accept this or that opinion.
I started to post comments primarily for two reasons:
1. I wanted to point that that Islam is not monolithic. That there are strains that are bad to evil. Mist are benign, everyday variety, while there are those that I consider to be excellent as they are universalist and focus on self purification.
2. In all the discussions on Islam I’ve seen over the past 12 years, I’ve rarely seen any discussion of the many forms of Sufi Islam.
M. Asad was not a Sufi and there are things in his commentary that I, and a few others, to be incorrect, but his rationalist approach is nevertheless appealing.
You certainly can reject everything I present.
[my dinner is ready, so I must stop right away.]
@Sufi Muslim –
I think I do, and I think it goes back to your concern about the meaning that was attributed to “obey” in the survey I referenced. All your general points on that matter are good, imo, however I thought that AtheistInChief made a good point about the meaning of “obey” — “But you have to admit, if I were a woman, I might find it curious that the Koran only talks about obedience to men, and never obedience to women (other than children and parents)” — and I thought your response to it was inadequate. But, we can let that go; I agree with you in general, but I guess I’m more inclined to trust the pollsters to know how to take something like that into account (the meanings of the words in their questions) — it seems pretty basic. I’ve already explained twice why I think there’s no other choice but to use the polls, so I’ll leave it there.
I can see from what little I read that Asad was employing a rigorous method, but aren’t all the other commentators doing the same? What I would expect from you is to tell us what is the consensus opinion among commentators, rather than pointing to a particular one with whom you agree. Right? Is that fair? It’s not that I’m uninterested in YOUR understanding of Islam; I am. But if the question is what do “Muslims” think about any particular issue, then I want to know the consensus.
I guess this is the main point for both of us. Given that there are many different interpretations of Islam, how can you presume to (repeatedly) make a statement such as “There is nothing Islamic about harming the non-combatants (including off-duty soldiers)”? Given the diversity, how can you or anyone else speak authoritatively about what is or isn’t “Islamic”? How can you say that your version of Islam is more authentic than Al-Qaeda’s? Everything you have written in this discussion indicates that you cannot. And if that were granted, you could still inform us all of the beauty and inspiration you find in your own version of Islam, you just wouldn’t present it as anything “more” (different) than that.
Finally, I want to make it clear that I am grateful for all your replies, and that my motive in all this has been the exact same as AtheistInChief’s. He wrote: “Anyway, I don’t want to fight you. You shouldn’t be fighting Marianne, is my point.”
Thanks, Sufi Muslim.
You might also read Numbers 31 (also Old Testament) about how Moses dealt with the Midianites. It helps if you have Bible commentary by Mark Twain to guide you.
http://www.classicreader.com/book/1930/11/
The passage that stands out is:
Numbers 31:18.
Well, yes, Moses’ people would have had to conduct examinations to find that out. And then distribute them, the number being 32,000, we’re told (Num. 31:32-47). So, let’s see, 32,000 virgins divided half and half between the soldiers and the rest of the Israelites, 16,000 each, except for 32, out of the soldiers’ share, for the Lord. (What the Lord wants with 32 virgins isn’t mentioned. So, anyway.) Moses also takes 1:50 out of the people’s share — that makes 320 virgins — for the Levites (i.e., priests).
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers+31
That’s a lot more virgins than the alleged 73 they talk about for Islam. Isn’t hermeneutics fun?
Yes, well, to find out which ones were virgins, Moses’ people would have to examine.
Now, class, the rest of Numbers 31 discusses the distribution of loot, including, we’re told, 32,000 virgins. It’s an interesting discussion: half of them, 16,000, to Moses’ soldiers, less 32 for the LORD. (What the LORD wanted with 32 virgins seems to go unmentioned. So, anyway.) Other half, 16,000, to the Israelite people, less 1 in 50 — that’s 320 virgins — for the Levites, that is, the priests.
And they only talk about 73 virgins and Muslims.
You might google Numbers 31 and check my math. It may be an interesting way to teach arithmetic to the young’uns.
Somebody place a damnation on whoever designed this comments software, while you’re at it.
As noted below, “It must stop.”
“Israel Threatens Witnesses to its Killings of Palestinians, and it Must Stop”
By contributors | Jun. 22, 2014 | Via Human Rights Watch
“Israeli forces are threatening to treat Palestinians like criminals because they witnessed or recorded what appear to be war crimes committed by the Israeli military,” said Brad Parker, international advocacy officer and attorney at DCI-Palestine. “Instead of harassment and threats Israeli forces should focus on bringing to justice those responsible for killing two boys on May 15.”
Here’s the link:
http://www.juancole.com/2014/06/threatens-witnesses-palestinians.html
The comment by Alan, 18 Jul 2014 at 6:44 am — beginning with “The world does not understand. We, the citizens of Israel, are faced with an enemy that is uncivilized and barbaric.” — was copied from The Times of Israel without attribution.
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-world-does-not-understand/
I want to be really clear about something. I have in the past excoriated people for comparing Israel to Nazi Germany in this and other fora. For whatever it is worth to anyone to know this, I’m done with that, too. Jews in Israel are acting like Nazis. American taxpayers are funding Nazi-like behavior. We need to deal with this reality, somehow.
It is absolutely stunning – not just the civilian carnage, but the reaction and justification from the Israeli govt and much of the Israeli press, public and defenders.
If someone is sitting there intentionally causing one brother to murder another brothers family, where should that brother “RETALIATE”?
It has nothing at all to do with Palestinians or Jews.
It entire situation is being intentionally orchestrated by r1b’s stolen intel apparatus from afar. It could not be more obvious. They are very open about it here. They want to cause as much genocide as possible and permanently cripple the technological development in the region.
It is not that difficult to understand.
And:
Yes, it is stunning. Even Wolf Blitzer was stunned by one guy he had on his program justifying the slaughter of the boys on the beach by saying that Hamas shouldn’t be putting their children in to fight the battle. Hamas it to blame for the slaughter of the boys playing on the beach. There has been no end to the stream of stunning actions by Israel followed by stunning comments and defenders by IDF spokespeople and John Kerry and the like. And just a couple of days ago, this happened: Bowing to AIPAC, Senate unanimously passes resolution supporting Israel. Mondoweiss
@ Glenn Greenwald:
I must thank you and offer congratulations. Either deliberately or inadvertently, you have managed to open your forum to a dialogue which is objectively examining the ideology of Zionism.
This open discourse is truly striking at the heart of the beast because it is exposing it. In my view this will be your greatest accomplishment.
Please don’t stop now. Write more material; however veiled, that will expose the truth.
Either deliberately or inadvertently, you have managed to open your forum to a dialogue which is objectively examining the ideology of Zionism.
This is deliberate. And the conversation was started in Glenn’s forums long ago, perhaps even before he arrived at Salon (though my memory of all his topics in the UT days would need refreshing to be sure). The battles at Salon – referenced here by Gator, Mona and others – were epic to say the least. All sorts of creatures held forth – some, like Gator, principled, others (many here will remember the Winsmith Chronicles) not so much.
His moves from one venue to another have been, at times, problematic. But one of the tremendous benefits is that new readers get exposed to topics that he has been championing for a long time. Topics often deemed verboten for discussion elsewhere (shades of the Grauniad Mod Squad).
Thought patterns on all these things are changing. It can be legitimately argued how much of the credit for that lies with Greenwald, versus the many folks who raised alarum before, but what cannot be argued is that he has had no effect whatsoever.
Stunning it is, and completely disgusting. Literally sickening — I feel physically ill. I don’t know how you ever put up with me.
I don’t know how you ever put up with me.
Our spidey-sense told us you weren’t a lost cause.
And we were right. ;-}
Remember me? She who vocally supported the Iraq war for it’s first year?
Glenn, I think the metaphor we’re looking for is King Herod.
re: Jews in Israel are acting like Nazis.
Some are. I imagine that some are not. I’m willing to afford the some who aren’t the same “generosity of spirit” that people elsewhere afford those in the US who bitterly oppose their government’s foreign policy decisions, but who are paralyzed/rendered ineffectual by either their small numbers or their lack of organization.
What Israel is doing to Gaza right now is wrong, on every conceivable level (moral, political, historical, religious….). People of conscience should be unashamedly opposed. Israel is doing nothing less than forfeiting her very soul. And, what I think I see in Israel’s assault on Gaza is nothing less than a particularly toxic blend of fear, frustration, and impotence. Israel knows she is losing her soul, and she’s wreaking havoc on her international support/standing. And, I think she knows this. I suspect, without knowing, that Israel is losing even the support of her diaspora. Were it not for the rhetoric of the US and our financial support to Israel she could better come to grips with the insanity of the path she’s chosen.
I have been somewhat “on the fence” regarding the BDS movement. No longer. I see it as the only choice that is left.
[How am I doing, Cory Doctrow? This is really tough to do. My favorite zionist aggressives is mothballed for the time being. But, no promises for the future.
ref for above: http://this-is-not-jewish.tumblr.com/post/34344324495/how-to-criticize-israel-without-being-anti-semitic
Apologies. Doctrow s/b Doctorow
Some are. I imagine that some are not. I’m willing to afford the some who aren’t the same “generosity of spirit” that people elsewhere afford those in the US who bitterly oppose their government’s foreign policy decisions, but who are paralyzed/rendered ineffectual by either their small numbers or their lack of organization.
I learned this lesson through the generosity of folks I talked to in Austria around the time Bush the Lesser was first inaugurated. Most people are able to see the difference when it is up close and personal, but the temptation to paint with the broadest brush is ever-present. I try to remember this, not always successfully, whenever I am tempted to heft my brush onto the nearest high horse. Generalizations fan flames that often – though not always – might best serve if tempered with liberal doses of reason and the hard work entailed in making significant change happen.
Anyone else get a warning like this when they access the page?
Any of you people who speak computerese know the meaning of the gibberish? :-s
No big deal. This can easily happen when using certain add-ons in Firefox that block extension scripts from executing. Basically this just means that one of your add-ons is working.
Stop the script. The page generally loads. This is phenomena is frequently related to Adobe Flash and DirectX. You may or may not want to enable or disable add-ons depending upon your security preferences. Adjustments to security and cookie acceptance are possible through selections made in options or preferences from the main Firefox menu.
Hope this helps somewhat.
Oh yes….If you have not installed Ghostery(Select block it ALL) or Do Not Track Me, Adblock Plus, and Better Privacy I would strongly recommend doing so. These are Firefox Add-on’s. I also recommend Peerblock and Malwarebytes continuous monitoring on Windows and Apple operating systems. If you are using a Linux operating system you are protected by virtue of system design in that software can not be installed into the operating system without entering the root password. This prevents software backdoor hacking but does not preclude viruses from entering the system through loaded software.
Just some things to improve improve security on your personal machine.
Hope this helps you.
In today’s ordnance lesson, we learn the word “flechette.”
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israel-using-flechette-shells-in-gaza
If it’s a US-made round, and you may see them in some of the news photos, look for an olive-drab projectile with yellow diamonds. The US term is “bee hive”, and the fuze might be one that can be manually set for range so that it will burst just short of the target.
Absolutely evil! The world is watching. This *can’t* go on much longer. (desperate plea)
I recall when in the revolution of 2011, the tear gas used on Egyptian protestors was made in the USA by a dual-citizen? Israeli company. That was mild compared to this. But it’s all evil upon evil. Who in their right mind could possibly believe there is no such thing as evil!?!
To understand why the Zionist/Ashkenazi Israeli propaganda machine is so pervasive one must read the THE TALMUD UNMASKED and THE FRENCH CONNECTION, THE ASHKENAZIS ARE NOT THE DESCENDANTS OF THE ANCIENT ISRAELITES. Both available on the net. The Zionists have NO Jewish blood, they are converted Jews, originating in Russia, The Ukraine, and Germany. This connects the Ukrainian issue with Israel Every delegate sent from the U.S.and E.U. to direct the coup are Zionists. The Ukraine is their true homeland, they never occupied the land rightly belonging to the Palestinians in ancient history. Their possession originated in 1948 and Zionists were installed as rulers by Rothschild and minions. The current State of Israel was not and never has been their homeland. There are many who have been silenced by accusations of Anti Semitism, which might carry more weight……..IF they were actually Semites. The true understanding of U.S. foreign policy, or lack thereof, must be preceded by recognition of how many Zionists are installed in key positions in our Govt..,education, media, finance, clergy, medicine/drug companies, regulators, Agribusiness, and JUDICIARY. Virtually ALL aspects of our lives have been infiltrated by the JEW spoken of in REVELATION 2:9. The Jew who is NOT a Jew.
At least read the two referenced publications if there is a desire to seek out truth, wherever it leads us. There is always more than than one view point AND those who seek to suppress ALL but their own agendas. The enemy is already within our gates and we are blissfully unaware. The Zionists in every country , most importantly Israel, should be deported to their respective country of origin.
Good point about the Ashkenazi not being Semites, who are simply people whose origins lie in the Middle East. Most Palestinians are Semites.
If you read the previously referenced French Connection , some Israeli ancestry can be traced to Turkey and Iran by Khazar lineage. The European Ashkenazis may have descended from the Khazars. They never resided in Palestine or Gaza.The true homeland of the Zionist Ashkenazis IS Russia, The Ukraine, and Germany. Victoria Newland, a Zionist, when asked why she appointed known Nazis to the U.S,/Israeli hand picked cabinet in Kiev, she flippantly remarked, “That’s a question for the psychiatrists, huh? This also raises the question of which side of the “Holocaust” were these people operating on. The tactics employed by Israel have always paralleled Nazi tactics. The Rhetoric and misdirection disguised to mislead the ignorant masses. A favorite tactic in deception is to give warning, tell the truth and then manipulate how the public interprets it. Case in Point, When Netanyahoo stated “Everything is going as planned” he was talking FROM THE BEGINNING, when the supposed murder of the 3 Israeli boys were publicised, no proof of guilt, yet HAMAS DID IT.I would venture IF 3 boys were killed, it was by Israeli hands, but the media interprets his meaning as the defensive response to an aggressor. A point of EXEGESIS or ISOGESIS, (what understanding you take from the statement as opposed to what you read into it.) The media always gives deferance in Israel’s favor. One needs to carefully scrutinize every statement for the double speak Pardon misspellings
One NBC correspondent is the same as another……..we really don’t have to worry who NBC assigns to cover things in Gaza….
https://twitter.com/IDFSpokesperson/status/490805771592933376
In know, I know, “retweets (of propaganda) don’t necessarily imply endorsement” yada yada…… :-s
“Eight Members of One Family Killed in Their Home as Israel’s Attack on Gaza Continues”
“Over 77 percent of the dead are civilians. Every day brings more stories of incomprehensible anguish and loss.”
http://www.thenation.com/article/180725/israels-ground-offensive-brings-more-death-and-destruction-gaza
Brief excerpt:
The eight that were about to die had gathered in the bedroom to watch the popular television series Bab al-Hara (The Neighborhood’s Gate) that airs at 9 pm. They sat close to one another. Abdel Rahman and his wife, Raja, along with their two children, 6-month-old Moussa and two year-old Haneya. Abdel Rahman’s brother, Naim, and his 1-year-old son, Sameeh. And Abdel Rahman’s two other siblings, Ahlam, 15, and Summer, 13. Five of the eight are children.
The bombardment came without warning. Three artillery shells in quick succession. The first struck the living room on the first floor. The second hit the bedroom. The third an adjoining family building.
Moussa, the family elder, was napping in an adjacent room when the attack happened. He awoke to find his family massacred. He helped carry out his two sons, two daughters, daughter-in-law and three grandchildren downstairs. None of them made it to hospital alive.
“I have not comprehended it,” Moussa says. He sits in the courtyard of what is left of his family home. He speaks quietly, softly. Israeli drones buzz overhead and the dull thuds of shelling sound in the near distance. Moussa has not changed his clothes from the night before. There is blood on his sleeve and on his pants. His family’s blood. He has trouble talking about those he has lost. “They were good people. Educated, respected. They never did wrong to anyone,” he says. “They died.”
When asked his age, Moussa says, “I was born during the Nakba,” Arabic for “catastrophe,” the term Palestinians use for the forced expulsion of hundreds of thousands of their people during the founding of the state of Israel. “From the Nakba to the Nakba,” he says. He is 66.
He says his family has no relation to Hamas or Fatah. They have a successful business. A factory that produces cement bricks for building and two trucks. “We never fired even one bullet,” Moussa says.
Israeli vengeance is self destruction. If Israeli genocide does not stop then Israel will be at war with the whole world. Is this the end of Israel?
If the depraved Zionists who comment here would be so accommodating, please list the types of actions Israel could not morally take in “dealing with” Gaza. Not impractical ones, immoral ones.
Are there any which you find to be foreclosed?
Hi Mona, If piles of dead children will not sway them, I’m afraid not much will. Their hearts are cold, their souls non-existent. Their decency extends only as far as their tribe. Their indifference to the suffering of others is bone deep.
Have sent this article to hundreds of people I know all over the world together with Greenwald’s brilliant comments on Friday’s Democracy Now! concerning US media and politicians servile submissiveness to israeli progaganda and policies. Include the world media, with few exceptions, and 99% of all politicians.
The gap between Israeli’s techniques are very close to being duplicate to those of the Na zi German.
The USA needs to stand up to Israel and say ENOUGH! Many of us remember the murdered crewmen of USS Liberty, and the cowardly response of Johnson and McNamara, all because the spy ship recorded the Israeli’s shooting Palestinian soldiers of war, hog tied with Tiewraps later to be buried in mass graves.
So a dead reporter would be a nothing.
Killing children is the best known way to get
their parents to talk peace with you. A future of love and harmony is guaranteed.
What is the Israeli goal here ?
the ongoing slaughter of fellow human beings is more often than not a political decision. all the decision makers & their masters are well known. for obvious reasons some high ranking pastors in the USA who has links / ties with Israel sees nothing wrong while proclaiming to be custodians of values in society. every action has consequences, their day will cum.
it shows who ever is behind this cruel killings of children have no GOD.
Why is it so much worse if it is a child that suffers?
Could it have anything to do with their innocence?
Palestinian boy vs tank
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spCVPedh_14
“the only thing I wish is that the truth has a tank”
Frank Zappa – More Trouble Every Day
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naFQ7KG_nHg
Is it worse do you think or the same?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqHQm-corRo
“The legal protection of children was introduced into international humanitarian law after the Second World War.”
http://www.icrc.org/eng/resources/documents/misc/57jmat.htm
It will probably take ‘some’ time to recognise ‘minors’ in conflict even though the war which brought about this law now has one of its main victims breaking it wantonly.
Most awful is that as Israel are not telling anybody where they are going to strike and people (and “KIDS”) are fleeing in to areas that they must then flee from.. Often more than twice.
Suffering on this scale is immeasurable and un quantifiable.
You don’t have children, obviously.
When they kill the child, what they’ve done to the parent is worse than killing them.
Well said.
You have had a happy childhood, obviously.
muppet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8BxC8X3QOA
U.S. President Barack Obama say he has told Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu that ‘no nation should accept rockets being fired into its borders,’ as Israeli troops backed by tanks, aircraft and navy ships continued to advance into the Gaza Strip.
But isnt that what this is all about! WHAT ARE ISRAELS BORDERS? if we knew and Israel stopped building illegal settlements, most of this problem would disappear. Isnt that why the peace process fails….
“All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.” (Edmund Burke)
Obama believes that no nation should accept unmanned war machines overhead unless that nation is named Pakistan or Yemen or Sudan or…
What’s happening in Gaza is more like the ethnic cleansing of Native Americans in the 19th century than it is the Nazi holocaust.
In terms of its relentlessness over a long period of time, massacre by massacre, it’s land grabbing and gradual population reduction, the American Indian experience
Is a more apt comparison. It was never enough to drive the survivors onto reservations, they were infected with small
pox and other diseases to reduce the population. The USG wrote the book on ethnic cleansing for the modern world.
“…….In terms of its relentlessness over a long period of time, massacre by massacre, it’s land grabbing and gradual population reduction, the American Indian experience Is a more apt comparison……..”
The Jews must be the least efficient “ethnic cleansers” in world history. Population reduction??
“…….According to Zeitouniya, the total number of births in Gaza in 2013 exceeded 56,000, while the first three months of 2014 saw more than 13,000. He added, “The increase of the population in the Gaza Strip is excessive; it is very large. Between 2000 and 2013, the number of Gazans increased by more than 687,000 people.”
Making up statistics to fit a narrative is part and parcel to the propaganda and political strategy of the lying left. Keep up the good work.
The ethnic cleansing of Native Americans took 250 – 300 years.
Gaza is on schedule.
That’s not going to fly Larry Israel pulled out of Gaza – and the population is exploding.
Precisely. To the tune of 30 innocent civilians per day. (.. but they were warned to find sanctuary in another area of their ‘cage’, .. eh, Rambo?!)
Yo, Incorrigible Fuk`.. Do you have any evidence as to who was responsible for the deaths that initiated this massacre (aka – ‘shooting fish in a barrel)?
One of the grimmer chuckles I’ve had in a while. Nice choice of words, Craig.
That’s not going to fly Larry Israel pulled out of Gaza – and the population is exploding.
Setting aside the (presumably) inadvertent pun, the idea of Israel as birth control for Gaza is particularly repugnant….even coming from you.
@CraigSummers:
After looking at the comments on this board, It appears to me that the craft which will no longer fly are your talking points and historical justifications for the genocidal actions of the State of Israel.
The truth is out. Nothing that you say here can stop that.
“…….It appears to me that the craft which will no longer fly are your talking points and historical justifications for the genocidal actions of the State of Israel…..”
Genocidal………right on cue…….
gator90
I didn’t even notice it until you pointed out. “Increasing exponentially” would probably have been more appropriate…..
Genocidal………right on cue…….
It’s a popular term. Even Israeli Ministers are using the word these days…..though they are trying to – predictably – pre-empt is usual meaning:
http://news.sky.com/story/1304322/israel-minister-accuses-hamas-of-self-genocide
Pedinska
‘Genocide is a serially misused and abused term whether someone says “self genocide” or calls the current military invasion of Gaza “genocide”.
Genocide in the twentieth-twenty-first century:
Bosnia-Herzegovina: 1992-1995, 200,000 deaths
Rwanda: 1994, 800,000 deaths
Pol Pot in Cambodia: 1975-1979, 2,000,000 deaths
Nazi Holocaust (denied by Ahmadinejad): 1938-1945, 6,000,000
Rape of Nanking: 1937-1938, 300,000 deaths
Stalins forced famine: 1932-1933, 7,000,000 deaths
Armenians in Turkey: 1915-1918, 1,500,000 deaths
Gaza(?): 2014, 300 (civilians)
This is certainly not meant to trivialize the deaths of these people, but to get some perspective on the use of the term “genocide”.
And I never implied that the war in Gaza was meant to be a form of birth control. Jesus, you must really think I’m callous. That’s you picturing me in your mind.
Thanks.
What does it take, Summers, for you to rationalize the theft of land, and if needs be, genocide? Tell me those statistics. Because that *is* the goal here, just as larry says.
From a 2009 interview with Professor Ben Zion Netanyahu, Benjamin Netanyahu’s father, the man who most inspired the Israeli prime minister.
My emphasis.
It is a land grab, of the same sort larry mentions –
Arabs, Palestinians, Israelis, Native Americans are human beings, just as you are, Summers – our commonality is that we are all human beings. That fact is the basis of all morality; that we respect each others’ humanity and treat one another as the one unifying spirit of all has instructed in the simplicity of the goodness residing in human heart: “He has told you, O mortal, what is good;? and what does the Lord require of you ?but to do justice, and to love kindness,? and to walk humbly with your God.” Micah 6:8
http://www.promisedlandblog.com/?p=803
And the rocket attacks Israel uses to justify its vicious cruelty, are feeble attacks, not fierce.
They are almost feeble enough to be regarded as merely symbolic.
“……..What does it take, Summers, for you to rationalize the theft of land, and if needs be, genocide?…..”
First of all, I think the Israeli settlement issue has turned international opinion against Israel. Abbas has taken a measured and patient stance against Israel settlements going to the UN and appealing to the International community for the ongoing expansion of settlements. This has been a slow process, but it is gathering some momentum – even in the US. Most people recognize that Israel is going to have to give up many if not most of their settlements in the West Bank (Oslo Accords). Personally, as a supporter of Israel, I wish they would give them all up.
Abbas, while heavily criticized at home and abroad, has taken the right approach to settling the long Israel-Palestinian conflict which really began in the late 1800s. Fighting Israel has never gained the Palestinians anything except condemnation of Israel from the international community like in Gaza today (which is the goal for Hamas). Palestinians have always paid the price for killing Israelis – in Palestinians lives. In addition, fighting Israel has devastated the Palestinian economy and has made Palestine a virtual welfare state today.
Leadership in the Arab world, in general, and in Palestine in particular has led the Palestinians down the road to complete devastation. The PLO began their resistance in the 1960s before there was one single settlement so the driving force began because the state of Israel existed, not because of the settlements. It was only after the wars in 1967 and 1973 that settlement activity began. So settlements have only exacerbated the real problem – the existence of Israel.
While the PLO became more realistic and signed the Oslo Accords, Hamas never has recognized that agreement. Once again, Hamas has led the Palestinians to war and devastating consequences. This was well calculated by Hamas who is in a desperate situation with Egypt siding with Israel on the border crossing and Iran weakened by the civil war in Syria, the sanctions by the US and the nuclear negotiations which are ongoing. Kidnapping and murdering the Israeli teens was a prelude to this war brought on by the condition which Hamas finds itself in after governing (extremely poorly) since 2005.
On Israel’s side, they have continued to expand their settlements which is not only morally wrong (because they deny Palestinians the right to self-determination), but they continue to push the international community toward sanctions which I believe will be the long term result. Hamas’s racist charter, their long term goals of bringing down the Israeli state, indiscriminate rocket launching, tunnel construction into Israel, clashes with the IDF and kidnappings only gives Israel a respite from the inevitable backlash from the settlements.
There was nothing worse for the Palestinians than the election of Hamas to power.
Craig, the sick fuck, writes:
There was nothing worse for the Palestinians than the cancer that is the blood and soil, ethno-religious nationalism that is Zionism.
Mona
“……..A word to the wise, [email protected]………So, you might want to turn the volume down some, if you want to stay…….”
Occasionally, you cross the line as well. You are a little out of control, Mona. Do you have a personal stake in Palestine other than just a typical concerned American citizen? Just seems like there are a lot of people being killed around the globe, but this seems to affect you way more.
Fuck off, Craig.
Do I have a personal something going on here? Why yes, Craig, I do. For decades I was an indoctrinated, ardent Zionist.
No doubt, the guilt that is eating at me is showing.
Mona
Your name comes up 145 times on this thread. Don’t you think it’s about time to moderate yourself? Or just go take a nap, OK?
Craig: No.
Population growth is not constant indefinitely anywhere in the world, so those figures in no way preclude an “ethnic cleansing” hypothesis. The fact that Israel can’t kill people fast enough without a lot of negative PR is not evidence of their intent. Additionally, ethnic cleaning doesn’t only involve killing. If Israel makes their living conditions untolerable enough that they have to go elsewhere, that can also be viewed as ethnic cleansing.
There’s a reason why settlers are the ones who cheer the most as Gaza is bombed.
It makes as much sense that Israel is ethnically cleansing Gaza as Hamas is by going to war with Israel. There is no intent to ethnically cleanse Gaza – but there is intent to get rid of Hamas.
What you are going to see as a result of the behavior of Israel against Gazans — behavior which shocks the conscience of the World — is a generation of Palestinians and other Arabs who are going to make Hamas appear as pikers, and terrorism their raison d’etre.
Something Really Bad is likely to happen again in the United States.
No people would tolerate this massacre. And if they can’t fight it by nation-state military means, they will make other resort.
I always find this Hamas focus a bit ridiculous. If Hamas ceased to exist, it’s not like Palestinians would go “OK, we give up resisting. Just take our lands and do anything you want.” That’s nonsense. Hamas is just a symptom of a problem, not the problem itself.
One small point. It’s hard to call Gaza a land grab when it used to be in Israeli hands and was given over to the Palestinians 20 years ago. Whatever else Gaza is, it’s not a land grab.
Oh please. They are right now take Gaza, after they’ve killed enough people there.
Nothing like ignoring the facts, Mona
Landgrab in Gaza? Israel pulled out over 9 years ago. Blockaded only because it was militarized. Take out the missiles and the blockade would be lifted. Get an effing clue!
The state of Israel is established on, ON, Palestine, the land of the Palestinians, stolen from them,
and still being stolen from them by force and against international law prohibiting continued Israeli Settlements. You and Israel are not above the law, either man’s law or the law of the one you falsely claim gave you the land. Get a clue!
@ seer:
That is true. Apparently the NSA/Mossad can’t understand that the history regarding the foundation of The State of Israel is relatively recent and that it is still intact in both written record and the minds of those reading the comment board.
Israel not Palestine is the intruder. Israel not Palestine is the aggressor. Therefore; Israeli’s are running the offense and Palestinians are struggling with the defense.
pissmonger is “pissing in the wind.”
@ larry:
The Zionist plan of colonization in America is no different from the Zionist plan of colonization in Palestine.
Good point.
Genocide can be accomplished in a variety of ways. The necessity for visible concentration camps (open or closed air) is critical to the mission. In Europe, the Nazi Zionists used both. In Palestine and in America, open air camps seem to be the more “acceptable” and “secretive” delivery method.
Actually, what is left of the “playbook” is written in stone on Sumerian tablets.
Thanks for posting pictures and updates from Gaza. That’s horrific and satanic.
Many Israelis with dual nationality could be behind the massacres and the bombardment. Some time later they leave Israel and go back are working and living in Europe and US where each one is offered friendship, love and support as if nothing had happened.
Truth, and wounded children, reported movingly by CNN.
http://edition.cnn.com/video/standard.html?/video/world/2014/07/19/dnt-wedeman-death-comes-early-in-gaza.cnn&video_referrer=
43% of the Palestinian people are 14 or younger. So now we know why they are targeting children.
Every time the Israelis go on one of their rampages they significantly reduce population growth for the future. This statistic also says a lot about life expectancy in Gaza.
“………43% of the Palestinian people are 14 or younger. So now we know why they are targeting children……..This statistic also says a lot about life expectancy in Gaza……”
It says two things. There are very high reproductive rates in Gaza and children make up such a large portion of the population, they are difficult to avoid in a war – especially where Hamas hides and launches rockets within the same population.
This isn’t a war. It’s an aggressor/occupier shooting at the civilians in the tiny, densely populated open air prison in which it confines them.
Israel is blowing the heads off of babies and targeting ambulances. Israel is evil.
Yes Craig, war is tough. War is hard. We know the Israelis are really good at heart and it breaks those really good hearts to have to kill all of these innocents… but war is tough. What can they do?
Those bad boys with their aimless little rockets make it necessary for Israel to bomb children…. because war is tough…. they just don’t have a choice.
Not very well hidden in your post is the fallacy of disproportional violence being necessary to stop what are essentially bottle rockets in the face of tanks and missiles. The stark death toll in Gaza should make even those with the hardest of hearts reconsider their opinions about this slaughter.
Hamas are not the only ones who are hiding. The right-wing murderers running Israel have cover from people like you to commit horrific war crimes that go far beyond anything Hamas is capable of…. all in the name of… what?
The American press, the public, and politicians are also hiding while this atrocity continues… but they are not content to hide, they must actually make up a false narrative to absolve themselves of any culpability in the massive suffering in Gaza.
Neither the stated intent of Israel nor of Hamas actually means anything. What happens to the people at the business end of these weapons means everything, and shows that Israel’s actual intent is to kill as many Palestinians as the rest of the world can abide, and then a few more. Collective punishment is a war crime. You are on the side of war criminals.
History will judge you and all the ones providing cover for these monsters very harshly. Some of us already do.
John
Were you born after Operation Cast Lead? What has changed between then and the current fiasco? Hamas understood the consequences of fighting Israel. They have launched 10,000-15,000 “bottle” rockets at Israel since 2000. The response by Israel was completely predictable – and Israel has always threatened Hamas with the consequences. There is nothing shocking about this. Everyone knew that Israel was going to bomb wherever there are launching sites placed by Hamas – no matter what neighborhood. Hamas could have drawn a map of Gaza locating where Israel would bomb. Hamas strategically placed the rocket launchers. That’s why Israel is bombing children.
Israel warned Hamas repeatedly about continuing to launch rockets. Israel responded to a cease fire proposed by Egypt. Hamas continued firing rockets. There have been ample opportunities for the assault to end. Hamas is floating conditions for a cease fire, thus they are willing to kill as many children as it takes to set the conditions. The more children murdered the better the chances of getting what they want. That’s a gruesome reality.
But, don’t provide this bullshit that we are complicit. That’s entire made up garbage, John. Hamas is complicit. Hamas calls for military victory over Israel – in the name of Islam. It doesn’t matter if they never achieve that goal. It’s irrelevant to the resistance movement.
Finally, it’s wrong to call weapons fired into civilian populations in Israel “fireworks”. They are meant to kill and terrorize.
Thanks.
Of course it is all Hamas’ fault that Israel is killing children and other innocents. I understand where you are coming from. Your bias is naked.
If it were the Palestinians or Hamas causing all this terror, death, and destruction I would be calling them war criminals… but you on the other hand do not care about right and wrong, just whose side you are on.
“…….If it were the Palestinians or Hamas causing all this terror, death, and destruction I would be calling them war criminals… but you on the other hand do not care about right and wrong, just whose side you are on…….”
I mentioned in my first post that the IP conflict brings the far left out in droves. Since I have been posting (several yeras), I have noticed a pattern amongst the fringe left. In general, most could care less about most conflicts, deaths, genocides and other human war related tragedies unless the US or Israel are involved.
In the very short life of the Intercept, we have already seen two articles about Israel. We have yet to see one about Syria (where 150,000(+) people have died). There was one about Russia and the Ukraine holding up Russian TV (compared to the MSM). There has been nothing published about Boko Haram and their comfort “girls” and the list goes on. The stories at the Intercept are predictable. When it comes to death and human rights, there should be no national boundaries, thus criticism of US policies because you are a US citizen is reasonable, but not an excuse to forget the rest of the world.
This is very much how the extreme left operates – US and Israel obsessed – but nothing else matters. Maybe you will surprise me John, but I won’t hold my breath.
Thanks though.
Your fantasy requires you to believe that I do not condemn war crimes unless Israel and the U.S. are involved. Well, as you may well know, my tax dollars are contributing to these particular war crimes, so I have more to say about it, but that does make me quiet on other atrocities. But of course, these are the only atrocities I have even a small hope of changing.
I suggest you go back to the drawing board and come up with a real defense of these brutal soulless monsters. Try harder. It is a very difficult task. Very hard to do without attacking the leftists who have nothing to do with the atrocity, but you may yet surprise me. Your pathetic attempt at misdirection simply will not work.
John
Don’t take what I said personally. Chances are that you are just like me – a nothing who pays taxes and has a political opinion. But that’s not the case for Greenwald, Pilger, Milne and other US/Israel obsessed political writers. The only article that I remember Greenwald writing about Syria in over a year at the Guardian was when Israel bombed Syria’s weapons storage areas which they interpreted was meant for (Hezbollah). Of course, he wasn’t interested in the tens of thousands of Syrians Assad killed with chemical weapons, artillery, tanks and war planes. Assad has been accused of war crimes by the UN, HRW and AI. None of that matters to Greenwald – and the fringe left which still believes the US is behind the destruction of Syria (by supplying the rebels and the jihadists).
So when I talk about the fringe/extreme/far left, you probably fall into that category (although I haven’t read enough of your posts to know for certain), I mean mostly for writers like Greenwald etc – people that actually have an influence on the public.
Anyway, take care and thanks.
I’m very sorry that you have no control over what Greenwald writes about. That is a super-duper-important issue for you and others. We get it. So what? The issue here is something else… no matter how hard you and others try to derail the conversation with your pet obsession, IT WILL NOT WORK.
Keep attacking the messenger if that is all you have… that and your willful blindness when it comes to Israel. We get it: Israel good, Greenwald bad. Next.
Five ambulances directly hit by IDF tanks and F-16s.
IDF claims it sent telephone messages to residents of Shejaia neighborhood to evacuate. Oh, well, it’s ok, then.
Shooting Fish in a Barrel!
How useful is giving warnings?
NO SHIT MORON
MULTIPLE MISSILES AND ARMS FOUND IN AMBULANCES
MULTIPLE MISSILES AND ARMS FOUND HIDDEN IN UN SUPPORTED ELEMENTARY SCHOOLS
Oh I’m sorry? You say ambulance, I say weapon transport truck.
Oh let’s see – what started this little debacle? Palestinians kidnapping children and murdering them (1 of which was a US citizen). I pay taxes too, scumbag, and if my kid was kidnapped by a terrorist, I would want my fucking tax dollars spent on getting him back home.
Israel is an aggressor, occupying power, that has penned Palestinians up in a densely populated open air prison, after stealing their land, and continuing to do so to this day.
Ambulances should be exempt, no matter what claims the IDF puts out about them. No vastly superior military power uses flechettes and kills dozens of children, if this power is moral. If you do not see this, you are depraved.
Is it really enough for us to Tweet and comment at a web site? Israel has commenced a literal massacre of the Shijaia, section of Gaza. Tens of thousands are fleeing; dead litter the streets.
This video shows what you and I, as American taxpayers, are funding right now. If seeing corpses everywhere makes you sick, don’t watch. It repeats after the 2:00 mark; you can stop then. It’s one block, one street, in this part of Gaza that is being called a massacre:
https://www.youtube.com/embed/VyZqqlQNZT4
This must stop. There must be accountability. Objecting online isn’t enough.
Pictures of walking wounded in Shijaia.
https://twitter.com/ThisIsGaZa/status/490758862190804994/photo/1
It’s a massacre. But none may utter the word “Nazi.”
This graphic picture shows the unspeakable mutilation of a dead girl child, held by her enraged father:
https://twitter.com/israelwc1/status/490738975662166016
I don’t know what to do?
I’m in tears, and I didn’t see that picture correctly. It’s, I believe, a policeman holding the girl.
Endless massacre: https://twitter.com/GazanPal/status/490759969089028096/photo/1
And why do you want so badly to say “Nazi,” Mona? Would it feel good?
Oops, that was the old Gator. The new Gator says, Go for it!
Oh Gator, the J-Post is reporting that “Bibi,” after “years of publicly restraining himself,” has taken some time out to condemn Turkish PM Erdogan as an antisemite because latter said the “terrorist state Israel has attacked Gaza once again, hitting innocent children who were playing on a beach.”
And said they are right up there with Hitler. (Okay, only Stalin and Pol Pot really approach that.)
NOW is the time to play the victim card?
And in another J-Post story, we are informed that the IDF condemns Gazan “terrorists” for putting explosives on camels to attack the IDF. The IDF is fucking killing Gazan children — they are soldiers. But any response from an Arab must be characterized as “terrorism.”
FFS
Sorry Mona- I did not intend to play victim card. I meant to sardonically lampoon the old Gator. Just to be clear, I am over my objections to Nazi comparisons.
Gator, my pal! I was not accusing you of playing the victim card! No, I was lamenting with you!
“……. Just to be clear, I am over my objections to Nazi comparisons……”
it’s not a great decision Gator. Just say you object to the killing of Palestinians by the state of Israel, but that is a far cry from what the Nazis did in WWII. And we both know that. The Israelis would have to kill everyone in Gaza three times over to match PART of the war record of the Nazi state.
Java script misfire
Re: Qur’an definition of Muslim holy land.
That includes all of Northern Africa. The only doubt in the room was whether it also includes Southern Spain.
The tragic irony is that all will become uninhabitable from runaway global warming, including Israel and Australia.
@AtheistInChief
Certain rules, like women not able to go for the Hajj alone, are outdated, even un-Quranic, and must be changed.
But who’s going to put some reason into the brains of the Wahhabi Saudis?
And yes, certain things can seem alien to other people.
But that’s where education and interactions with the others help.
@barncat
Please keep in mind that when Muslim scholars have talked about women being obedient to their husbands, they have done so with the qualification and condition, implicitly or explicitly, that the husbands reflect certain qualities and play certain roles and have certain responsibilities, and do so within the bounds of the outer code of Islam.
All of the above is presented as something positive and constructive.
But, in the West, the word ‘obedience’ and the very idea of it in husband/wife relationship, is considered bad and very negative.
So, it’s highly likely that when the poll was taken, the people who responded with a yes to obedience thought that they were expressing something positive, desirable and noble, without realizing that it’d be construed in a negative way in the West.
I’ve seen many instances of an action given a positive connotation in some Muslim countries, while the same action is considered in a negative way in the West, and vice versa.
Wearing the Hijab is considered noble and an act of piety and modesty by many Muslims, while it’s frowned upon by many in the West.
Some Muslim men consider not shaking the hand of a woman to be an act of respect, while it’d be considered arrogance and an insult if a non-Muslim Western woman tried to shake the hand of a Muslim and he’d refuse to do so. In his mind, he’d be doing something respectful, while in the mind of the woman it’d not be the case.
So the polling must add questions to probe into the inner meanings and the values that people have associated with certain outer actions and forms, to get a more accurate assessment.
I can give more examples, but I think I’ve answered your questions.
Interesting points, barncat, I agree with many, but this one contrasting the two cultures is not complete –
Unfortunately it is more than frowned upon – in France it has been declared illegal to wear the Hijab. I forget where, but in another European country, Muslim women have been assaulted and seriously injured and their Hijabs torn from their heads. (maybe that too is France.) Women in Hijabs in the US are regarded with disdain by some American women who find their Hijabs an indication Muslim women are unenlightened, unliberated, backward – a gross and arrogant lie.
It’s the same old story – it’s easier to be cruel than to be kind; to be judgmental than to be open and welcoming.
Whoops – I thought I was replying to barncat – sorry Sufi. Where did his post go to?
I certainly don’t look at them with disdain; more like nervous discomfort that I try to hide.
There’s just no helping it, for me. I, too, was born into an Abrahamic religion, and don’t care which of the three it is: this fixation on female modesty and head-covering is matter of patriarchy and control. And yup, I believe women like my mother are indoctrinated to accept doctrines that men push on them, and that are degrading.
She absolutely should be free to make that choice. But I am also free to rail against these doctrines and call them what they are: patriarchal crap. And I feel that same way about the hijab. However, listening to a Westerner rant about that is probably how I feel about an Anglican Englishman declaiming on the flaws of Irish-Catholics, which is to say, not friendly or welcoming.
>”There’s just no helping it, for me. I, too, was born into an Abrahamic religion, and don’t care which of the three it is: this fixation on female modesty and head-covering is matter of patriarchy and control. ”
Get thee to a nunnery.
Men subdued by women’s wiles.
In this manner she pleaded with gentle coaxing,
The while her tears fell upon her cheeks.
How could his firmness and endurance abide
When even without tears she could charm his heart?
That rain brought forth a flash of lightning
Which kindled a spark in the heart of that poor man.
Since the man was the slave of her fair face,
How was it when she stooped to slavish entreaties?
When she whose airs set thy heart a-quaking,
When she weeps, how feelest thou then?
When she whose coquetry makes thy heart bleed
Condescends to entreaties, how is it then?
She who subdues us with her pride and severity,
What plea is left us when she begins to plead?
When she who traded in naught but bloodshed
Submits at last, ah! what a profit she makes!
God has adorned them “fair in the sight of men;” 1
From her whom God has adorned how can man escape?
Since He created him “to dwell together with her,” 2
How can Adam sever himself from his Eve?
(Mathnavi of Rumi (E.H. Whinfield tr), The Masnavi Vol 1)
there is no god. people will believe anything. even thousand year old fairytales
WTF! I believe the topic is about massacre of the innocents in Gaza. Pls keep your comments about Islamic history and dress code nuances to more dedicated forums.
One of our Sufi teachers is Kabir Helminski. His Sufi Order is based on the teachings of Rumi.
http://sufism.org
In reality, issues, like the Hijab, are never discussed amongst us, as we focus on grooming the self to reflect the higher qualities.
Many Muslim women wear the Hijab on their own, sometimes against the wishes of their husbands, and other family members.
A lot of these women are Westerners.
The modesty is for both sexes, as far as I know.
That said, I no longer feel comfortable talking about this matter, considering how human beings are able and willing to shed blood and then justify it. Constantly thinking about it has affected my health; I’m a heart patient.
There was an incident in the U.S.: a woman, may be two, was/were wearing the hijab on, I think, July 4. The Hijab looked like the American flag.
That woman/Those women were harassed, and assaulted, as I recall.
Obviously, it’s okay if a woman wears the flag as a bikini, but Heaven forbid, one should wear it as the Hijab.
Recently, a woman was denied access to a public beach for wearing the Hijab, in France, while her young kids could not understand why they couldn’t play at the beach.
I used to think that secularism meant freedom of religion and not favouring or hating one religion more than the other.
But now, secularism is being misused to suppress one particular religion.
But the hatred of Islam is not confined to trivial matters, like the Hijab.
That said, I acknowledge that the evil actions of some Muslims contribute to this hatred.
But the constant use of words, such as “Islamists”, “Islamic Terrorists”, and “Jihadis” also implicate all of Islam/Muslims, and triggers reactions, such as calling Islam a political ideology that must not be protected as a religion, opposing the construction of mosques, and carrying out certain actions on the global scene.
P.S. I’m also in tears. Have the political leaders lost sense of morality and justice?! The present situation is clearly exposing what’s in the hearts of some people.
@AtheistInChief
The Quran does not necessarily ask women to obey men.
But that’s how many Muslims have interpreted these verses.
Remember, that a few years after the Prophet died, the Muslims were ruled by tyrants, who changed the original meanings of certain Quranic terms and injunctions for power and control.
They also concocted stories about the Prophet and invented traditions.
The Sufi movement began to restore Islam to its original form.
Islam, as many Sufis see it, is about love. Many of us also adhere to the doctrine that the Truth is within us and is accessible even to those who call themselves atheists.
See if you can pick up some books by SEYYED Hossein Nasr, William Chittick, Shaykh Fadhlalla Haeri, Martin Lings and Kabir Helminski, to understand exactly what many of us really adhere to: the Islam you see on Fox News or something else.
I believe the topic is about massacre of the innocents in Gaza. Pls keep your comments about about Islamic history and nuances to more dedicated forums.
You’re absolutely right!
Many thanks for the reminder.
Take care,
In case you were unaware of this fact, I’ll point out to you, you’re in a protected free speech area. Some of those partaking in the discussion are interested in the points of view from Muslims’ perspectives. We tend to believe that openness, communication, and understanding promote peace and prosperity. Authoritarianism, power struggle, and judgmentalism, usually end up in war, a very bad outcome for human beings and life on earth in general, Here and Now.
Mr. Greenwald
You wrote an article praising a reporter for Russian TV who criticized the Russian invasion of Crimea. You wrote:
“……..American media elites awash in an orgy of feel-good condemnation in particular love to mock Russian media, especially the government-funded English-language outlet RT, as being a source of shameless pro-Putin propaganda, where free expression is strictly barred (in contrast to the Free American Media). That that network has a strong pro-Russian bias is unquestionably true. But one of its leading hosts, Abby Martin, remarkably demonstrated last night what “journalistic independence” means by ending her Breaking the Set program with a clear and unapologetic denunciation of the Russian action in Ukraine……..”
RT followed that up with:
“……..RT also issued a statement saying: “Contrary to the popular opinion, RT doesn’t beat its journalists into submission, and they are free to express their own opinions, not just in private but on the air………”
Right. Yes, Abby Martin was courageous. But that falls far short of the truth about Russian Television. Russian TV is complicit in denying the role of Russia in the downing of the Malaysian jet. Now, how about a story about the reporter for Russian TV who just quit because of “…..what she called the Kremlin-funded station’s “disregard for the facts” in its coverage of the downing of the Malaysian passenger jet over Ukraine….”
“…….A reporter for a global Russian TV channel resigned over what she called the Kremlin-funded station’s “disregard for the facts” in its coverage of the downing of the Malaysian passenger jet…..Sara Firth, based in London, quit Friday morning after five years with Moscow-based RT. After tweeting her departure, she told the Press Gazette Thursday’s coverage was “the straw that broke the camel’s back for me.”……”I walked into the newsroom, and they were running an eyewitness account of God knows who the person was blaming the Ukrainian government, …..”It’s the level of disrespect for the facts that really bugs me,” she said……”
“…….”I couldn’t do it any more, We’re lying every single day … and finding sexier ways to do it.”…..Firth said that they spread “lies” and that they “work for (Russian President Vladimir) Putin.”….”
“…….”We are asked on a daily basis if not to totally ignore then to obscure the truth,” she tweeted…..”
Russian TV responded:
“……”Sara has declared that she chooses the truth; apparently we have different definitions of truth,”….”
Indeed they do, Mr. Greenwald. Nice of you though to provide propaganda on behalf of Russian TV though. Maybe it even helped their ratings.
Wow, Craig. That’s a heaping helping of whataboutery you have going on there! In the meantime, what do you have to say about the IDF claiming to journalists that Hamas uses them as human shields, and oh-so-kindly offering to escort them out of Gaza?
There is no whataboutery intended. When Greenwald supported the propaganda of RT, he not only raised the ratings and credibility of RT, but threw under the bus the real journalist in Russia who have been murdered and beaten by the state into submission – all to make a point. I’m not quite sure what you mean by whataboutery in this case. The Intercept is a news source. Why not publish an article about the complicit “journalist” at Russian TV? Why not publish a story on the lying Putin, or why the job of Journalist in Russia is one of the most dangerous in the world?
Do you have a link on that story of yours? I’d be interested it.
Thanks.
Just scroll down, Craig. I posted the entire IDF press release.
“…….As part of Hamas’ strategy of hiding behind the civilian population it has frequently exploited journalists as human shields, deliberately putting them at risk of injury or death.
Israel is not in any way responsible for injury or damage that may occur as a result of field reporting………”
Perfectly legitimate caution issued by the IDF for journalists who might be at risk. They offer to escort anyone. They don’t require it.
Craig wrote:
And then Craig immediately served us another helping of whataboutery!
I think you misunderstand Mona. I posted the above completely off topic. The topic of Russia has nothing to do with Israeli and Gaza. I was just simply pointing out that Greenwald supporting Russian TV was idiotic for all the above reasons and callous at the same time. So there is no whataboutery intended or even implied (at least on purpose).
Thanks Mona.
@Mona: “Sufi Muslim, let me ask you. What is the significance in Muslim women covering their heads, and even their faces? What beliefs or policies drive this convention?”
———————-
The head cover is the tradition of the Abrahamic faiths, as depicted in Biblical movies and imaginary portraits of Mary.
I’ve seen Jewish and Christian women covering their heads; although, many Hindu and Sikh women also wear a head cover.
The inner meanings that many Muslim women associate with the head cover are piety, modesty, and consciousness of God.
I tend to look at the inner meaning one has associated with an outer form/action as it’s clearly a psychological thing.
The same act, with no spiritual meaning associated with it, will not have the same effect on a person’s inner self.
The Quran does not ask women to cover their heads. It simply assumes that they are already doing it by virtue of their Arab tradition as part of the overall Abrahamic family of traditions.
It simply enjoins them to cover their bosoms with their headgear, and to not show their ‘beauty’, which has been interpreted by many to mean faces, while others have said it means something else.
As a result, Muslim women associated piety and shame to at least covering their heads and cleavage, while others went further, and included faces as well.
The Prophet’s wives were routinely harassed.
So they were asked to stay at home and cover fully when they went out.
Since they were considered nobles, other women followed suit and started to stay at home generally, but cover themselves completely when they went out.
This became a status symbol for women, because the Prophet’s wives were declared mothers of all believers.
Women who acted this way continued to be considered noble and high class women even after the Prophet died.
Since then, for centuries, covering and segregation became symbols of piety and modesty, but also of high class and nobility.
Yet, at the same time, many men started to force women to cover and to stay at home for control and subjugation.
Kings and other rich people started to set up women’s quarters in their residences so the men could have a good time, often with other women of the opposite sex.
Many Muslims, like me, tend to interpret Islamic sources through proper historical and textual contents, and apply them in manners that are appropriate for our times and circumstances.
I believe that while it’s absolutely necessary for Muslim women to cover themselves, even with the face covered, in some Muslim countries, because the men there are not mature enough to not harass them, as is the case in some parts of Afghanistan, it’s not necessary for women who live in the West to wear the Hijab, let alone the full Burqa, especially since it’s become rather difficult for those women who wear the Hijab to get jobs. Western women who wear the Burqa find it even more difficult to integrate and function; though I’ve seen women working in a hospital with the full Burqa in UAE.
Moreover, we do live in the age of Islamophobia.
So there’s absolutely no need for Muslims to draw attention.
It’s a matter of doing what is appropriate and practical in the situation one lives in.
Thank you, SM. Yes, I rather figured it was at core a commonality with all three Abrahamic faiths. And while I can get impatient with women who think it appropriate to show way too much skin and to simultaneously expect nary a man is going to look at them “that way,” I just cannot accept that women must cover themselves — be “modest” — to accommodate sexual restraint in males. I expect them to be adult enough, and civilized enough, to behave properly when a woman dresses as freely as they do.
That all said, given Western arrogance toward Muslim nations, I do feel a bit inhibited from voicing this view very often. But it is how I truly feel.
Thanks again.
I don’t believe I was implying that. I don’t think even the Burqa serves that purpose (of restraining men).
I’ve seen men looking at covered women “in that way” by focusing on their ankles.
The Quran though enjoins both men and women to simply “lower their gaze”, which could mean that both sexes are equally asked to restrain themselves, I don’t know.
Anyway, have a good night. I have to turn in.
quote”Kings and other rich people started to set up women’s quarters in their residences so the men could have a good time, often with other women of the opposite sex.”unquote
Other women…of the opposite sex??? Hmmmm…
note to self… file this under:
Things my mother never explained to me.
It was a reference to Radar O’reilly of M*A*S*H. ;-)
I respect the mystic core of every religion, but there seems to be a propagandist bias against Islam which presumes its text (the Quran) is particularly offensive – this is not so, as the following bizarre quotes from the (Judaic) Old Testament and (Christian) New Testament of the Bible demonstrate:
Women Must Cover Their Hair During Prayer: “But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head…” (1 Corinthians 11:5)
Women Will Never Teach or Have Authority Over Men: “I permit no woman to teach or have authority over men; she is to keep silent.” (Timothy 2:11)
If You Disobey God, You Will Eat Your Babies: “If in spite of this you still do not listen to me but continue to be hostile toward me, 28 then in my anger I will be hostile toward you, and I myself will punish you for your sins seven times over. 29 You will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters.” (Leviticus 26:27-30)
Cursing At Your Parents Warrants Death: “For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.” (Leviticus 20:9)
Giving Birth to a Daughter Makes You Unclean for 66 Days: “But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days.” (Leviticus 12:5)
Non-Virgins Are To Be Stoned To Death: “But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father’s house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.” (Deuteronomy 22: 20-21)
If You Steal Something, or Sin in Any Way: Cut Off Your Hand: “And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched.” (Mark 9:43)
Deformed People Can not Approach God: “For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous, Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded, Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken. No man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come nigh to offer the offerings of the Lord made by fire: he hath a blemish; he shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God.” (Leviticus 21:18-21)
If Your Brother Dies, You Need To Fuck His Wife: “Master, Moses wrote unto us, If a man’s brother die, and leave his wife behind him, and leave no children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.” (Mark 12:19)
No Sex During A Woman’s Period: “…thou shalt not approach unto a woman to uncover her nakedness, as long as she is put apart for her uncleanness.” (Leviticus 18:19)
These are just a few examples of the nonsense that moderate and sensible Bible-religionists ignore. Similarly, it needs to be understood that moderate Muslims (and this is most of them, just like most Christians and Hebrews are moderate) ignore the more outdated and inflammatory interpretations of the Quran.
Thank you for that post.
Islam itself is not that different from Christianity, or Judaism, and some of this brother’s wife thing even exists in polytheistic religions. The main difference between Muslim societies and Western societies, is the Magna Carta, not the religions themselves. In the west, Civil Law trumps religion. And actually, it does in most Muslim societies also, but in most Muslim societies, for whatever reason, the societies are more conservative, and the laws are more conservative.
Thank you for that post, once again.
All religious texts must be interpreted through the higher consciousness whose attributes I’ve listed often.
They must also be interpreted through textual and historical contextualization.
In case of the Quran, I reckon that it needs to be considered as an integrated whole in which parts of it clarify its other parts.
Moreover, certain verses in it provide timeless and universal principles and other verses on the topics must be examined in light of these principles.
For example, the verse: “Let there be no compulsion in matters of religion (in the broadest sense),” forms a universal principle of freedom of religion, and means that one should not impose a religion on someone, nor one should force anyone to stay within a religion, which settles the issue of imposing Shariah even on Muslims and the apostasy laws of some Muslim countries, meaning that this law is un-Quranic.
Additionally, other sources of Islam must be examined in light of the Quran, for it is the most authentic source, and not the other way around, as most Muslims do.
A moderate Muslim is not someone who ignores parts of the Quran.
A moderate Muslim emerges when they apply the above mentioned techniques, especially, the one about interpreting texts through the higher self.
You write “A moderate Muslim is not someone who ignores parts of the Quran.” If this meant to contradict something I said, bear in mind I wrote “it needs to be understood that moderate Muslims ignore the more outdated and inflammatory *interpretations* of the Quran.” Perhaps you are simply confirming what I said, however.
Yes, I am confirming what you wrote.
We do reject those interpretations that are not pertinent or result in injustice and aggression, etc., without rejecting the actual words of the Quran.
Well then…I’ll notify Obama at once to stop the WOT. Then we can all sit down together and have a cold beer. Perfect.
@ Cindy:
That stuff would be enough to make me reject the Judeo-Christain thing.
Time to play “spot the colors.” Note the photo next to this NYT story.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/20/world/middleeast/gaza-israel.html
Notice, first, the shell colors. The armored vehicle is field artillery, probably US made, as would be the ammo, stacked up behind the vehicle. Yellow projectiles are probably high explosive. Pukey green, a color I well remember, is for white phosphorus. I remember being taught, back in the former US Army, that WP was for marking or smokescreening but never to be deliberately used on enemy personnel, let alone civilians or built up areas. A US tank in that era might have had 2 or 3 WP rounds out of 50 or so total. (Of course, that was before Fallujah and Operation Shake and Bake).
So, if you see news photos of Israeli artillery, take a look at what’s on the pallets behind the guns.
Here’s another fun fact: the shells ship with an inert plug screwed in at the top, often with a ring on it for lifting. These rounds, in these pictures, all have fuzes screwed in and ready to fire.
Isn’t that, er, illuminating?
Captain’s log, supplemental. A handy, and recent, guide to artillery shells. The IDF almost certainly makes copious use of US artillery (likely 155mm) and tank rounds, all with similar color coding.
http://downloads.slugsite.com/cc-pdfs/MM2597.pdf
Also notice the banding or other markings further on. Diamonds mean flechettes inside. Antipersonnel. Projectiles marked with diamonds turn up now and then in footage from behind IDF lines.
The manual pictures munitions labeled “TOXIC CHEMICAL AGENTS (casualty agents)”, aka, “chemical weapons”. (p 14) What next? If they’re that brazen about their stockpile of banned weapons does the US government – Cartman-like – admit to being a torture regime too? “We do what we want – respect my athor-itay!”
Very illuminating.
I particularly like Subcourse -MM2597.pdf (after one gets through the routine supply nomenclature stuff).
According to that course, incendiary devices should be light red….but I also vaguely remember a light green with red markings on the canister.
In your sample pic, I can’t get a close enough zoom for exact markings but all of those shells are banded black for anti-armor. And they do have 10 light reds. So….the Israeli’s are firing anti-armor (possibly incendiary) devices and likely into hospitals and children as well. Bit extreme wouldn’t you think?
Just wanted to let you know that I appreciate your post and will be on the lookout in the future. Thanks.
Please do look for more pics like that. It’s not the first photo of Israeli field artillery and pallet-loads of pukey green WP rounds, which are incendiary.
For everybody else’s edification, white phosphorus bursts in a spray of burning phosphorus fragments, which sets everything on fire it touches that is flammable, and the fragments keep burning, even when embedded in human flesh. If you see pictures, as you did in 2009, of white-spider smoke bursts over Gaza, that’s what it is, and as an airburst. You can google all this.
Lends a certain irony to claims about precision strikes.
1) Back in the day Phil Ochs rewrote his song “Here’s to the State of Mississippi” to “Here’s to the State of Richard Nixon”. If Phil were alive today I’m sure he’d update it again:
Here’s to the state of Israel,
For Underneath her borders, the devil draws no lines,
If you go to her beaches, lifeless children’s bodies you will find.
Whoa the tall walls of Gaza have hid a thousand crimes,
The calendar is lyin’ when it reads the present time.
Whoa here’s to the land you’ve torn out the heart of,
Israel find yourself another country to be part of
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6MSF88UVBc
2) If you’re in the SF bay area there’s a March for Palestine at the Ferry Building on the Embarcadero tomorrow, Sunday, from 3-5pm.
https://occupyoakland.org/ai1ec_event/palestine/?instance_id=277619
http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2014/07/17/18758755.php
http://www.facebook.com/events/1443023179317181/1445871189032380/
3) Fuck you Bill Maher. Find another country to be part of you racist asshole.
I read the Qur’an online to better understand the messages from visiting Saud princes. Among other things were the verses that claim any land once owned by Muslims is holy land and must be recovered by all united Muslims. That is particularly for the three holy sites. Mecca, Medina, and Jerusalem.
doug wood, The quran can’t be read just like that. It’s not like reading books or bible. That verse you read probably about what had happened at that time. The muslims were persecuted and tortured by the non muslims at that time. Lesley Hazleton http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y2Or0LlO6g
Doug, reading the quran is not like reading a book or any religious books. The verses came down in context of what’s going on at that time sometimes as the muslims were tortured then. It’s a mixture of history, science, fiqh and many more guidance. Please youtube ‘quran tourist’ , you’ll find a recording of Lesley Hazleton and the quran.
Don’t forget all of “Israel”, OK? This is written into the racist charter of Hamas which they refuse to renounce.
Then racist Hamas charter is, of course, a response to the racism and imperialism of Zionist Israel. Goose, gander.
“…….Then racist Hamas charter is, of course, a response to the racism and imperialism of Zionist Israel……..”
You seem to think that the racist philosophy of Hamas is OK because it’s a response to the “racism” of Zionism (Zionism is racism: 1975, UN resolution 3379 repealed by the same UN in 1991). Again Mona, Zionism is “the national movement of Jews and Jewish culture that supports the creation of a Jewish homeland in the territory defined as the Land of Israel……” In 1947, Israel accepted the UN proposal to create a Jewish state within the designated boundaries (not the “Land of Israel”). So no Mona, Zionism is not racism. And the racist charter of Hamas is not OK because you consider it a response to Israeli imperialism. Your response indicates that you really have no legitimate response to a racist charter driven by an extreme religious philosophy.
“……..Goose, gander……”
Goose, gander – 100:1 Palestinian to Israeli death ratio.
Thanks Mona.
Just one more thought on this:
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/07/19/371994/gazan-kids-will-be-scarred-for-life/
The United States of America is allied with the apartheid State of Israel in this action which is in clear violation of the Geneva/Hague conventions on Laws of Land Warfare.
One of Nate’s tirades gone wrong:
“I expect nothing less than Obama to accept the resignation of Brennan in the next month. If he doesn’t do so, then I’ll cast my stones as well. Until then, you and Kitt don’t know wtf you are talking about.”—Nate, March 12
@AtheistInChief
Why in the world would I want to read the quran. … or the bible or any other book of bullshit?
For the same reason I formally studied the sacred texts of several religions: to learn about and understand the religions that mold a variety of cultures.
There is some human wisdom to be found in these texts — along with horrible assertions and claims from less-enlightened eras.
Ha, ha. Actually you wouldn’t. :) Unless you want to get heated enough to pick up a glass and throw it against the wall.
When I was growing up, everybody in my school and in my neighborhood knew I was an atheist. My classmates would joke that I’d go to hell. And they’d always say, “all you have to do is read the Koran. If you just read it, you’d become a believer, the book is that divine.” So one summer I took the book and started reading. I was 15 or 16. I got increasingly irritated as I went through the pages. I was brought up to respect the book, and it was so deeply ingrained in my mind, that I couldn’t bring myself to slam it on the floor. I put it away nicely. But my blood was racing at the sheer medieval nature of the content.
Yes, you probably wouldn’t want to read it. To be honest, I can’t think of a single reason you’d want to, unless you’re a professional debater on the subject, or you wanted to know what enlightened people in 7th century Arabia were thinking.
I have studied the religion though. As a religion, it was a revolution of the time. I’ll give you some examples.
1. Women at the time had no legal standing – Islam said, well, the claim of two women is equal to that of one man. So it gave women 50% rights.
2. If you were a thief, you could be put to death. Islam said, well, we’ll just chop off a limb. Hell, it’s better than death.
3. Women would receive nothing in wills. Islam said, you HAVE to give at least this tiny portion to daughters.
etc., etc…
For the 7th century, it was great. The flaw is, the religion said, God said all this. So now, because God said all this, if you want to be a strict practitioner, there can be no movement on these ideas, no protestant revolution, for 1400 years.
But no country follows these rules other than Saudi Arabia and maybe a few others. Most Muslims I know have never even read the book. And that is the main problem. If they read it, I think they might stop believing.
Yeah, don’t read it.
Sadly, you display a keen sense of misconception.
But, congratulations, you are not alone.
Well, there gems of wisdom in it I’m sure, as there are in the Hebrew bible.
For example, Micah 6:6-8
Netanyahu, if he has ever read and understood this passage, has long since abandoned its wisdom.
Thank you for reminding us of this passage.
“The only democracy” just issued this:
————————————————————————————
Subject: GPO Advisory to Journalists Covering Operation Protective Edge from the Gaza Strip
GPO Advisory to Journalists Covering Operation Protective Edge from the Gaza Strip
(Communicated by the GPO)
Hamas and other terrorist groups in Gaza continue to attack Israel’s civilian population. They have fired over 1,800 rockets at Israel’s towns and cities, putting five million of our citizens – men, women and children – in bomb shelters. They have infiltrated Israel by sea and tunnel in an attempt to murder and kidnap Israelis.
In response to these attacks and Hamas’ repeated rejection of cease-fire proposals, the IDF began a ground operation in Gaza on Thursday night.
The GPO is doing everything in its power to provide the foreign press with timely information and to facilitate access.
Nevertheless, we wish to stress that Gaza and its vicinity are a battleground. Covering the hostilities exposes journalists to life-threatening danger (and involves risk to equipment).
As part of Hamas’ strategy of hiding behind the civilian population it has frequently exploited journalists as human shields, deliberately putting them at risk of injury or death.
Israel is not in any way responsible for injury or damage that may occur as a result of field reporting.
The GPO advises the members of the press to take every possible precaution. Journalists in need of assistance should contact the GPO to facilitate expedited passage from the Erez crossing.
Be safe in your mission.
@ -Mona-:
Right….Pigs are flying too.
I’ll consider that to be their letter of proof for Premeditated Murder in the works.
I’m tired of this immoral absurdity: “Whatever we do, remember it’s the fault of The Terrorists and no one else.”
I don’t think that that is what’s written there. It’s a simple warning as u can’t expect anyone to guarantee the safey of people who enters into a battle ground.
Many people are:
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/07/19/371992/1000s-join-antiisrael-demo-in-france/
“The Israeli regime also launched a ground invasion of the coastal sliver late on Thursday.”
Guess its a regime now
I’d say it was well put and phrased. How would anyone expect them to guarantee the safety of people who enters into a battle ground?
No.
This bit is is self-serving crap:
A repugnant (and unsupported) excuse in advance, justifying targeting journalists.
Who the hell said that they are expecting them to guarantee shit. And they didn’t write anything about guaranteeing shit. You did…twice. What people expect is that they will commit multiple murders and then take no responsibility for their actions.
Translation: “Don’t expose our false narrative or we’ll kill you.”
Gator90 19 Jul 2014 at 10:30 am
As you surmised, I can certainly relate to his struggles and quandaries. For myself, it is resolved. Zionism — the good intentions of many Zionists notwithstanding — is untenable, both ethically and practically. The Jews of Israel and elsewhere have a choice: maintain the doomed illusion of a “democratic” and “Jewish” nation-state through brutal force and raw, murderous power; or try to rediscover our souls.
I came across the following article via a Cory Doctorow tweet earlier this morning.
How to Criticize Israel Without Being Anti-Semitic
http://this-is-not-jewish.tumblr.com/post/34344324495/how-to-criticize-israel-without-being-anti-semitic
To me, a non-Jewish person struggling to understand the history as well as the present wrt this conflict, it seems to be valuable advice. Some of the issues are fairly apparent, others not so much, and so I was grateful for this piece. I am interested in your thoughts on the entire piece but particularly, in light of your comment quoted above, the author’s expansion on point 5.
The title of that section, Don’t say “Zionists” when you mean Israel makes absolute sense to me. The two are not one and the same. I think this particular section defines many of the disagreements you and others here have had over the years (or maybe I’m just full of gas). I think it would be helpful reading for some here who use the term Zionist frequently, if only so they can remain thoughtful about such things.
This bit of that explanation, was something I was entirely unaware of, but I think it important in terms of realizing that govt policies everywhere can be hijacked by the few, to the never-ending detriment of the many:
I hope you see this and feel like sharing your thoughts. I always find them enlightening and helpful.
Pedinska, good food for thought and discussion. But I wonder when that was written?
Ina any event, I entirely disagree with Cory on this bit:
Does this piece pre-date Max Blumenthal’s book, Goliath: Life and Loathing in Greater Israel ? Because that work most certainly demonstrates the prevalent belief among Jewish Israelis that they have every right to take whatever land they want that lies within “Greater Israel,” and that blacks and Arabs are utterly inferior to them.
To take his analogy with feminism, it is as if Andrea Dworkin really did define most of what is feminism; if that were true, few would call themselves feminists. But vis-a-vis Israelis, Zionism for many or most is the equivalent of deeply misandrist women.
I have begun to claim the label “anti-Zionist.” What I mean by that is anti-Israel as it is currently constituted. I do not mean the spiritual Zionism of Judah Magnes: Palestine is properly a land where Jews should and could establish Jewish enclaves and a cultural center. But ethno-religious nationalism is a non-starter, for any people who consider themselves liberal, in the classical sense.
Israel cannot both have laws and policies that make sure non_Jews never exceed 25% of their population, and be a liberal democracy. I have come to understand that this is like trying to square the circle.
Well, shit. That post was *supposed to look like this:
———————————-
Pedinska, good food for thought and discussion. But I wonder when that was written?
In any event, I entirely disagree with Cory on this bit:
Does this piece pre-date Max Blumenthal’s book, Goliath: Life and Loathing in Greater Israel ? Because that work most certainly demonstrates the prevalent belief among Jewish Israelis that they have every right to take whatever land they want that lies within “Greater Israel,” and that blacks and Arabs are utterly inferior to them.
To take his analogy with feminism, it is as if Andrea Dworkin really did define most of what is feminism; if that were true, few would call themselves feminists. But vis-a-vis Israelis, Zionism for many or most is the equivalent of deeply misandrist women.
I have begun to claim the label “anti-Zionist.” What I mean by that is anti-Israel as it is currently constituted. I do not mean the spiritual Zionism of Judah Magnes: Palestine is properly a land where Jews should and could establish Jewish enclaves and a cultural center. But ethno-religious nationalism is a non-starter, for any people who consider themselves liberal, in the classical sense.
Israel cannot both have laws and policies that make sure non_Jews never exceed 25% of their population, and be a liberal democracy. I have come to understand that this is like trying to square the circle.
Agreed.
Divorcing historical Zionism from the reality of the Nakba whitewashes the colonial nature of the project. These weren’t unforeseen circumstances. Pretending they were greatly skews Western perception of Palestinian rights.
What really sealed the deal for me was an essay by (Jewish) Mark Braverman, addressing the statements of “progressive Zionists.” His piece is titled: The Two State Illusion, Racism in Israel, and Jewish Hubris.
An excerpt:
I highly recommend the rest, which is here: http://markbraverman.org/2013/10/the-two-state-illusion-racism-in-israel-and-jewish-hubris/
Braverman’s post was very good. Thanks for that link Mona.
Cory didn’t write that, he just linked to it in a tweet. Not sure who wrote it or when. It’s on Tumblr and I have no idea how that works.
I felt the author was trying to define Zionism a bit narrowly as well, but I also believe he had a point about how labels get applied, misapplied and how they are often warped beyond all meaning. In fact, we have a commenter here who sort of specializes in that. So a word/label that starts out meaning one thing – and may continue to mean that to a number of people – can easily end up being twisted by misuse into something that it was never meant to be. Just something to think about and I really wanted to hear Gator’s take on that.
Thanks for sharing your perspective.
@ Pedinska:
You are right that a clear definition of Zionism, outside the boundaries of religious affiliation, is obviously necessary to avoid offending people of the Jewish faith.
Here is one copied from a comment I made below:
In my view, all organized religions are merely attempts to control and manipulate humans by restricting them from direct access to the source of spirituality within each human. The notion that a supreme being (whatever that might be called) is in someway concerned with the political and economic affairs of humans on planet Earth is absurd; and when that being requires offerings (animal or human) in the form of rituals like war it violates the moral code of the universe. In short, if any given god requires – spiritual repression, economic compensation, suffering and /or death – to appease or fulfill it’s identity; I want no part of that god.
With regard to the topic at hand, I feel that it is necessary to clearly differentiate between Judaism as a spiritual control mechanism, and Zionism as purely political and economic control mechanisms. There might be more Christian Zionists than Jewish ones. The Vatican and the The Inner City of London are equally culpable in laundering the economic control mechanisms of Zionism. Washington DC exerts the military control mechanisms and the State of Israel is the visible extension in the Middle East as a way to advance that might. The UN was designed as a Zionist front operation. The people belonging to all of the religions are nothing more than expendable pawns in the ideology of Zionists who desire full control of all real assets (land, water, food, people) on planet Earth. There in lies the danger of a few elites controlling the many – the only possible result is complete and absolute control of the masses for the benefit of the few. One World Dictatorship so to speak.”
Zionism is not about the Jewish faith. It is a political and economic ideology designed to obtain control over all humanity on planet Earth.
Thanks for opening this topic.
Pedinska and Gator90 –
Pedinska, it is just like you to offer helpful information for Gator and his still Zionist, Mrs. Gator, and characteristic of you to be so thoughtful of others. If I may I’d like to suggest the following to aid you all in understanding the differences between Judaism, Zionism and Israel, the work of rabbi and scholar Elmer Berger may be just what the doctor ordered.
Gator90, I had not read your pro-Zionist comments in the past, but I appreciate your conversion and the difficulty you face in explaining to Mrs. Gator why she too would do well to consider conversion. With that in mind, I’d like to introduce you to the work of Elmer Berger, an anti-Zionist Nationalism, Reform rabbi who died less than twenty years ago – http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/jews-against-israel/
Elmer Berger is featured on an (rather unkempt) author page at Amazon where his Peace for Palestine: First Lost Opportunity is accompanied by an illustrative description from which the following is excerpted:
His The Jewish Dilemma is presented with the ‘look inside’ feature to give you a taste of his easy to read writing style.
There are other books of his there, scholarly, well researched, among them this: Judaism Or Jewish Nationalism: The Alternative To Zionism.
Link to Elmer Berger’s The Jewish Dilemma – http://www.amazon.com/Jewish-Dilemma-Elmer-Berger/dp/1419136690/ref=sr_1_9/184-9757182-6371323?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1405809205&sr=1-9&keywords=elmer+berger
No, it is not necessary to know all those things in order to criticize of the actions of the government of Israel. Although it is true that many people use such criticism as a cover to attack Jews, it is equally true that a frequent defense to valid criticism is a claim of antisemitism.
Pedinska — I appreciate your interest in my thoughts. (Mrs. Gator is tuning me out, mostly, but I’m not giving up…) I am still sorting this stuff out for myself, but it seems to me that the concept of Zionism has become inseparable from the savage reality of its expression in modern Israel. And I find the Braverman analysis quite persuasive.
Of one thing I am certain. The “two state solution” of which many liberal Zionists (including until very recently myself) are enamored is dead. Or rather, to be more precise, it was never alive except in the fantasies of us Westerners. Israel doesn’t want it and neither do the Palestinians, and neither ever did. There will, eventually, be a single state consisting of Israel, the West Bank and Gaza. The questions are, what will that state look like, and how much bloodshed must precede its establishment? I do not know, but I am not optimistic.
Nor will either side accept a solution in which the other has any real power, either. A two state solution might be imposed without either side wanting it, when the rest of the world has had enough.
“At least, 340 people are confirmed dead and nearly 2,400 more injured since Tel Aviv unleashed its offensive 12 days ago.”
From: http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/07/19/371979/takfiris-created-to-boost-israel-status/
One might consider this possibility.
What would happen, I wonder, even if *just on this board* to ANY reporter who said that s/he was proud that his/her network’s “commitment to cover the #Israel side of the story”…?
Yes, this is rhetorical; I do not expect an honest answer form anyone here.
Rather than hiding behind the infamous, “Just asking” ploy, how about you tell *just this board* “what would happen?”
regardless of how you feel towards this topic, this website has handsdown, alot of the most knowlegdeable people ive ever seen comment.
And sum of the best speling and grammer to. Lets thank twitter for it’s out standing contribution of the level to discoarse. Shame to John R. MacArthur for calling we tweeters “a disembodied, manifestly anti-intellectual medium that impoverishes language and writing.”
why are different users using the same ip adress when the comment?
*Israel Vows to Escalate Gaza Offensive: 341 Killed*
“In addition to the direct casualties of the Israeli attacks, the UN is warning of a growing refugee crisis, noting over 40,000 internally displaced Palestinians have applied for UN sanctuary now. The World Food Program is looking to send more food aid into the strip, though their ability to do that remains unclear, particularly with Israeli politicians openly calling for all food to be cut off from the enclave as part of the current war.”
http://news.antiwar.com/2014/07/18/israel-vows-to-escalate-gaza-offensive-285-killed/
Supporting link: http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/07/19/371963/egypt-halts-gazabound-aid-convoy/
I prefer pressTV to that greasy libertarian outpost “antiwar.”
Your preferences are of no concern to me.
I love you Lyra1
@ Patrick:
Thanks. I need as much of that as I can get.
I would like very much to know what you have done of late, under your real name, to crack a chink out of Western media’s propaganda, and to wake up any among its many viewers. If you are doing a better job than Greenwald and company we should all be made aware of it so that we can offer *you* support in your valuable work.
If you won’t do that, then your tirades here are nothing more than the meaningless tyrannical temper tantrums of an impotent person burdened by an emotional age of about three, unable to control his insane jealous rage at someone else who *is* doing the work he himself has miserably failed to do.
Snap.
They ought to be ashamed. Apparently they want more of the NBC party line towed during reporting which is the lip service to journalistic neutrality( a farce in any country, but US honestly believes itself), and not somebody who is reporting this atrocity for what it was. Israeli pockets run deep in America, period. What a joke. Replace a native Arabic speaker with somebody …never mind.
How convenient an Arab is writing what he “saw” the Jews do. This is ridiculous the IDF has no intentions to target children and the reality is how can you believe a reporter who is bringing his own anti semitism beliefs on the job. wake up America, Israel supplies gaza with electricity on a daily basis. All we want is for the hatred from the Palestinians to stop. Israel does not target children. #eliminate the ignorant #biasedreporter #nbcshouldreevaluateitsreporters
Well then, they have the worst trained military on the planet with the least ability to aim weapons as could be imaginable.
Sobbing and shaking, Ismail Abu Musallam leaned against the wall of a hospital Friday, waiting for three of his children to be prepared for burial. They were killed as they slept when an Israeli tank shell hit their home, burying 11-year-old Ahmed, 14-year-old Walaa and 16-year-old Mohammed under debris in their beds.
His personal tragedy is not unique: the U.N. says minors make up one-fifth of the 299 Palestinians killed in 11 days of intense Israeli bombardment of the densely populated Gaza Strip, where half the 1.7 million people are under age 18.
To readers — except for who I replied to — apology for the missed closing tag.
Every time I have the word ‘Zionazi’ in one of my posts, the Guardian removes it.
If I make another post, asking the Guardian’s censors to explain why they removed my previous post just because it had the word ‘Zionazi’ in it, they remove that too. I experimented and I posted comments that had ‘Islamo-fascist’ in them and all those comments survived.
Strange?
The Guardian is sometimes overzealous in preventing their readers from discrediting themselves. As you note, however, they sometimes apply their standards arbitrarily. The Intercept is more enlightened and allows you to make a complete idiot of yourself for the entertainment of all.
Explain this specific arbitrary: Zionazi bad, Islamo-fascist not bad.
Seriously, climb down off your imagined smug horse and explain it. Or do you find Guardian’s bias normal, expected and justified? And do you have any thoughts on Guardian’s censorship… err… moderation? On a scale of 1 o 5 where 5 stands for ‘I love it’ how would you rate it. Consider this: they are actually paying people to remove certain readers’ comments.
Apologies. My reply to John Kelly was meant for the artist currently known as Voice of Reason.
What has Snowden done other than benefit Greenwald’s bank account?
Who has benefitted from Snowden’s leaks other than Greenwald?
How “enlightened” is The Intercept?
Mr. Greenwald has risked his life and freedom almost as much as Mr. Snowden did.
As for ‘who benefited’… let’s begin with the billions of dollars that US companies in bed with the US gov’t are about to lose. Their customers benefited by knowing who they were dealing with and opting to discontinue that business relationship.
Prove it, Arth.
I am sorry, prove what? That certain US companies are losing business? I suggest that you follow the news, including the financial news. I simply don’t have the time or the drive to produce a brief for you.
Or prove the Mr. Greenwald and Mr. Snowden risk arrest and indictment? Seriously?
Quite a few years ago (17 to be exact) I spent 3 days in Hell (aka the Newark jail). I was guilty of being accused of having committed a cyber-crime. A false accusation. But that didn’t prevent the overzealous NJ investigators for coming to my house at about 4 p.m., persuading me to follow them to their interrogation station – they threatened to bring in a SWAT team and a helicopter for my neighbors to see if I refused. Then I was interrogated but not ‘under arrest’ for about 8 hours, non-stop and threatened by the cops with unfavorable media coverage if I refused to confess to ‘something’. Then, I was placed under arrest and it took my wife 3 days to get me out of there and then it took me several months to PROVE my innocence to the NJ prosecutor or I would have been dragged into a trial that, had I won, would have had me in debt for the rest of my life and severely impacted the future of my children. Such is the power of the US gov’t.
So, if you are asking ‘how’ Mr. Greenwald and Mr. Snowden are in danger while messing with the US government, I would assume that you are baiting for some sterile conversation.
Correction – the NJ thugs… cops… whatever showed up at my door at 4 a.m., not 4 p.m.
Trolls should be ignored. Their need for attention with pointless cynical posts should not be rewarded.
Greenwald “benefited?” Reporters report, and earn salaries. Then they write books about their experiences. It’s normal. Is Glenn Greenwald supposed to be from a special planet where people don’t collect salaries for reporting on govt. misconduct? Is he not supposed to collect a salary, or sign a book deal, because you disapprove?
get the f outta here.
So let’s say he’s a blogger, so what? Are reporters superior? Most reporters are bought and paid for establishment hacks. So I guess I’m thankful he wasn’t a reporter. But regardless of your taking exception, at the time he broke the story, he was “reporting” for The Guardian.
You know, the internet has existed for a while. Your lies are only going to go so far.
And I’m glad he signed a movie deal. Who gives a flying fk if he criticized Sony or not. Just because I hate Time Warner, doesn’t mean I don’t watch HBO. Greenwald is not God. He’s not supposed to do everything right. You judge him as if he is supposed to be on some pedestal. Actually you dont’ judge him, you specifically, just lie about him.
If Greenwald was “elevated,” he was elevated by us, the readers, who got a glimpse of sunlight, and a breath of fresh air, and a moment’s respite from the lies and garbage and the putrid rot of the establishment media.
Too bad for you, but Greenwald is the future. NBC News is the past.
An ignored troll will go away on it’s own.
Speaking of ZioNazis… not sure if this link has been posted yet, pretty terrifying, nakedly fascist mob behavior by right wingers against peace activists and leftists in Israel:
http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/fascists-occupation-activists.html
Explain this specific arbitrary: Zionazi bad, Islamo-fascist not bad.
Seriously, climb down off your imagined smug horse and explain it. Or do you find Guardian’s bias normal, expected and justified? And do you have any thoughts on Guardian’s censorship… err… moderation? On a scale of 1 o 5 where 5 stands for ‘I love it’ how would you rate it. Consider this: they are actually paying people to remove certain readers’ comments.
The Guardian isn’t the government, so why the hell do you care if they don’t like your inane made up word?
Simple remedy for your posting problem: Don’t post comments with that lame word in them. Your choice.
I’m not convinced The Intercept is knowingly banning the use of “ZioNazi.” I have taken to spelling a certain individual’s name thus: [email protected]
Why? Because whether in Chrome or Tor, if I correctly spell it, it doesn’t post.
Seems glitch-ish to me.
In the comment I was replying to, Arth had posted about the Guardian censoring ziona, not The Intercept. I didn’t see one about The Intercept and that bastardized so called word.
My apologies to you and Arth, Kitt. I just misread.
The Guardian is well-known for having Church Ladies seated in the moderation bunker. I was banned there for posting a link to a Max Blumenthal article, this one: http://www.alternet.org/story/148016/how_to_kill_goyim_and_influence_people%3A_israeli_rabbis_defend_book's_shocking_religious_defense_of_killing_non-jews_(with_video)
I would use nazi in my posts too if I wanted them to be blocked.
What has Snowden done to make your life better?
He seems to have annoyed a good number of people like you, so I do owe him a debt of gratitude on that account.
lol
You’d think that an anarchist such as yourself would be complimentative of Mr Snowden’s exposition of da-gov’s misdeeds..
I am an anarchist now? When did that happen?
My sincere apologies, have you stated *otherwise?
If not, now would be an opportune time to enlighten the class as to your causes and beliefs.
Many Thanks..
*link, please
He”s a whistleblower. That’s enough for me.
The more one sees of the state of Israel the clearer it becomes that it represents a mockery to the memory of the Jewish Holocaust victims. Netanyahu would fit in well as a commandant of any extermination camp, both with attitude and ability. And the Israeli armed forces seem be modelled on the Waffen-SS as obvious when observing their callous attacks on civilians with banned weaponry.
It is clear that the rogue “governments” in Israel and the U.S. have made a major misstep this time. They have now PERMANTLY lost the propaganda war they waged for over sixty years -it is toast.
Sadly not in the eyes of way to many Americans and Israelis.
Peach Cobbler seems to have a speech impediment. He/She can’t stop repeating NeoNazi, imperialist, NeoNazi, imperialist. It doesn’t make for a particularly enlightening exchange of ideas.
Something similar to this happened to me in Sarajevo when I was reporting for NBC, and I never worked for that network again. NBC has had a tough time competing with CBS and ABC in war coverage. The network hasn’t really figured it out and thus makes a lot of armchair judgements from the safety of Rock center. Richard Engel is a competent correspondent, but Ayman knows the region a lot better. If NBC wanted to do a really bang up job, it should put Engel on the Israeli side of the conflict and Ayman on the other. The conflict is worthy of two correspondents, and we may actually get a balanced portrayal.
Yesterday I saw two commentaries about the situation in Gaza~one on MSNBC, spokesman for Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, Chris Hayes show and again on Bill Maher Realtime on HBO. An all Jewish panel other than Bill, no opposing sides and both commentaries on both shows stated that the Palestinians use their people as human shields and also that their leaders are Islamic terrorists likened to ISIS. This is what we hear. Granted, their way of life is different and they do keep women down but I don’t believe there is ever a reason to kill, and to make excuses like “they were warned, why were the kids playing outside anyway?”, Just appalling. Bill Maher made a comment about Jews being smarter and being nobel scientists and educated. Although I watch his show every week I have to say that last night I felt a strong leaning against him and the panel. And the spokesperson on Chris Hayes from Israel was adamant about his views and how “we build hospitals”, “The Palestinians “build tunnels”. So much heard from one side, but then Chris Hayes said he couldn’t get anyone from Gaza to comment so in his case, he tried to get an opposing view but somehow couldn’t. I loved the reporting by Ayman~he was honest straight forward and factual as well as clear. I am furious with the reasoning to pull him. There should be a mass movement to call and write the Broadcasting owners and be a thorn in their sides. All these good writers on this site. Get your letters written. It can only help his cause and show him some support as Glenn has done here with this article and with news appearances such as the one I saw on Amy Goodman’s, which by the way Glenn, was amazing!! Thanks again Glenn for awesome news.
Your well-intentioned comments have, nevertheless, the following flaws in it:
1. …Islamic terrorists…”
There is nothing Islamic about harming the non-combatants (including off-duty soldiers)
2. “…and they do keep women down…”
Sweeping generalization and distortion of reality.
my comments were meant to show how biased the two separate newscasts were. About my comment,”keeping women down”. That has been my observation of muslim religion. It may be sweeping but its what I see first hand and from what I have read. This does not mean that muslim women cannot get ahead, many do, but until they are on a more equal par with the men, at least in some way, I feel that for me(my feelings about the religion), the women are kept down. And about the other comment about Islamic terrorists comment. I felt and probably didn’t state clearly that his comment likening the Gaza people to Isis was not a fair or accurate correlation or comparison. Nothing so far can compare with their horrible methods.. ie.. the stoning of the adulteress recently. So for that I was misunderstood.
Re: Muslim Women:-
Then your original statement should’ve stated that it was based on your personal observation and reading, judging the situation on the basis of your own understanding of what ‘keeping women down’ means.
The reality is not that simple
Muslim women are mistreated as well as treated well. In many families they exert a lot of influence and are loved dearly and respected a lot.
I realize that you meant well and your main point was something else.
Nevertheless, I decided to comment on your two secondary points, since many in the West have great misconceptions about the realities of Muslims, and tend to use terms that implicate all of Islam and examine the status of Muslim women through very dark and thick glasses.
Re: Muslim Women
Women are mistreated and kept down in almost every culture. Is Islam special somehow special, in how it treats women?
I was born a Muslim, and grew up in a relatively mild Muslim culture. It was only occasionally that I would see women in Burkhas, maybe 5 times a year or something. The poorer the woman, the less rights she had, or could exercise. Rights were there only on paper, not in reality.
But I’m curious regarding your defense of Islam with regards to women. Have you ever read the Koran? Do you know the kinds of rights they have in court with respect to a man? The country I grew up in does not practice Islamic law, but if it did, then my understanding is that in court, two women would be required to oppose a man.
You have a right to believe what you want, but maybe you should read your holy book, before telling Marianne that her observations are invalid. What is a normal person supposed to think, when they know that in Saudi Arabia, a country that purportedly practices Islamic law, a woman cannot even drive? Maybe you should provide an example of how Islam treats women equally. NOBODY treats women fairly. Even in the west, women have been struggling for equality. It’s a little difficult to stomach the idea that a 7th century religion preaches equality for women.
TO: AtheistInChief
Did you not read this in my comments?
“The reality is not that simple.
Muslim women are mistreated as well as treated well. In many families they exert a lot of influence and are loved dearly and respected a lot.”
———-
Take a look at these pictures from our annual Sufi conferences. Do you sense that they’re being mistreated?
http://www.askonline.co.za/photogalleries.php#photoGalleries
There are a lot of Muslim women in our families and friends.
None if them is being mistreated.
The Saudis prevention of women from driving is a mistreatment.
However, you’ll find women driving in almost every single country, not called Saudi Arabia, which is heavily nourished by certain powers, by the way.
So, why would you not consider that as a truer example than the example of the Saudi women?
And yes, I’ve not only read the Quran, I’ve also read many commentaries of it, have deeply reflected on many of its key ideas and teachings, and have read the opinions of many scholars on these matters.
And, while I acknowledge that there are Muslims who interpret certain Quranic injunctions to mistreat women, I, on the other hand, do not adhere to their interpretations, and am satisfied that the interpretations I adhere to do not constitute, in my opinion, any mistreatment of women.
Moreover, I’m aware of many Muslims who adhere to these interpretations.
So, I’m not a lonely voice.
I read your statement. I grew up in that reality that is “not so simple.”
I’m also very aware that there are all sorts of generalizations about Muslims that can can border on the dangerous. So if your intent is to help not spread them, that is fine. But a knee jerk defense of Islam as somehow above criticism, is not helpful to that cause either.
I know it’s complicated. My mother is a very strong woman and indomitable, and very Muslim, and so is my sister. But, I also have to say, that my mother was lucky that my father is a bleeding liberal. Their marriage was arranged. She could easily have been married to some crazy nut, and would then have suffered. So I understand that it’s not so simple.
I suppose the reason for my post is that I’m opposed to alienating people who are already your friends, such as most of the posters on this forum. If you tell them, that they can’t say this, or that, about Islam, because it hurts your feelings, or is “inappropriate,” I don’t think it’s a good strategy on this forum. I reserve for myself the right to criticize Judaism, Christianity, or Islam or any culture, on this forum. And that is a right that should be afforded to Marianne as well.
And just because you have pictures of happy Muslim women, doesn’t really mean a thing.
Anyway, I don’t want to fight you. You shouldn’t be fighting Marianne, is my point.
To be perfectly clear as a child who has a mother in the International Union of Muslim Women the Quran has nothing against women and in fact gives them a great deal. My wife who is christian and I use Islamic rules in our marriage because she prefers it.
People in the world justify their uninformed oppression of women in all kinds of ways but you can be certain that it is not because of Islam or the Quran.
TO: AtheistInChief
It’s not a fight. It’s a discussion.
You say you reserve the right to criticize a religion.
First of all, since religions are not monolithic, when you criticize a religion, you’re in fact criticizing *your* understanding of it, for an adherent may have a different understanding of it than yours.
Second of all, while you say you reserve the right to criticize a religion, you won’t extend the right to provide counter arguments to an adherent.
Third of all, there’s a tremendous amount of propaganda against Islam going on, using certain words and phrases that implicate all of Islam, which is resulting in opposition to mosques and centers and policies that are clearly designed to limit Muslims to practice their religion as they see it.
So it is important to educate at least a few well-meaning people, especially those you say are our friends, on how Muslims interpret those words and phrases.
That propaganda is also going on because certain outer expressions of Islam are being misconstrued and given meanings that are just the opposite of what these critics give.
I’m just having a discussion, but if feel that it’s not appropriate, then I’ll accept your advice and refrain from commenting further.
Take care,
@Muhib said:
“People in the world justify their uninformed oppression of women in all kinds of ways but you can be certain that it is not because of Islam or the Quran.”
——
Human beings *interpret* religious writings, and they do it using certain methods.
They, then, present their interpretations as if that’s what those sources actually say and mean.
When someone says: “Islam says [insert text here]”, in reality, they are saying: “Islam, as I understand it, says [insert text here]”.
And this is true for both Muslims and non-Muslims.
There are in fact those Muslims who commit violence against non-combatants and justify their actions from the Quran and Prophetic traditions, thereby presenting their actions as “Islamic”.
But most Muslims have rejected their actions as bad to evil.
Similarly, there are in fact Muslim women who are mistreated under the cover of “Islam”, and these people do quote the Quran and Prophetic traditions in support of their actions.
But many other Muslims reject that.
marianne: “About my comment,’keeping women down’. That has been my observation of muslim religion. It may be sweeping but its what I see first hand and from what I have read.”
Sufi Muslim: “Then your original statement should’ve stated that it was based on your personal observation and reading, judging the situation on the basis of your own understanding of what ‘keeping women down’ means. The reality is not that simple.”
Pew Research, 2013: “Although many Muslims endorse a woman’s right to choose how she appears in public, overwhelming majorities in most regions say a wife should always obey her husband. Medians of more than eight-in-ten Muslims express this view in Southeast Asia (93%), South Asia (88%), and the Middle East and North Africa (87%). Even in Central Asia, a region characterized by relatively low levels of religious observance and strong support for a woman’s right to decide whether to wear a veil, seven-in-ten Muslims agree that a wife should carry out her husband’s wishes. Only in Southern and Eastern Europe do fewer than half (median of 43%) share this view.”
Sufi Muslim, let me ask you. What is the significance in Muslim women covering their heads, and even their faces? What beliefs or policies drive this convention?
I ask, because while I understand that it’s a bit rich for Westerners to lecture Muslims about human rights, I really do have a problem with this covering-up the female face and body business.
I was raised Roman Catholic, and in my adolescence the Church finally ended the sexist requirement that women cover their heads in church. It also abolished the ban on women in the sacristy or in the area of the altar, based on the view that we are somehow unclean and pollute these spaces.
We females were also, back then anyway, indoctrinated to believe “Mary-like” modesty was required, or we sinned. In practice, this meant no neckline could fall lower than two fingers’ width below the base of the neck, and all skirts must hit the floor when kneeling.
So, I admit to extreme discomfort with the hijab, much less the burqa.
What say you?
@barncat
I keep repeating that the situation is much more complex. It’s also more complex than these polls lead you to believe.
Do these polls even ask how “obeying husbands” is interpreted?
All my life, I’ve heard that women should obey their husbands, and it’s always meant to mean, “Women should obey their husbands because they are the heads of their families, SO LONG AS WHAT THEY SAY IS ACCORDING TO THE TEACHINGS OF THE QURAN AND THE PROPHET, FOR THEIR OBEDIENCE TRUMPS OBEDIENCE OF EVERYTHING AND EVERYONE ELSE.”
Therefore, many men assume that they are the heads of their families, and it’s their duty to take the lead in ensuring that their families are living according to the teachings of their religion, and setting an example themselves, that is, in order to qualify as the heads of their families, the husbands must be pious and reflect the higher and noble qualities of the self.
Yet, I’m aware of men who misuse their roles, while there are men who are only figureheads and it’s the women who exert more power and control, while in other cases, it’s the women who take the lead roles and the husbands take the back seats.
So the poll appears to simplify a very complex situation.
We can go back and forth on this. You can bring up examples to prove your assertions and I can bring examples to counter that and to repeatedly assert that the situation is much more complex than that.
There are in fact Muslim men who force their wives to wear the hijab.
But I’m also aware of cases in which it were the husbands or the parents who were dead against women wearing the Hijab, while the women defied them and wore it of their own volition.
I’m also aware that some non-Muslims consider the Hijab to be a symbol of subjugation, while the women who wear it consider it to be an outer expression of their commitment to their faith and a symbol of liberation and piety.
My original point is extremely simple: No one should generalize Islam, or any other religious or non-religious path, as they are not monolithic.
But now that you’ve referred me to a poll, I say the poll simplifies things.
I’m aware how an innocent looking poll can be manipulated by the way questions are phrased, and the way they are answered.
In many cultures, obedience of husbands, fathers and elder brothers is considered to be a good thing primarily because of respect and the roles they play.
But to many who’re not intimately familiar with these cultures, the word ‘obedience’ is considered very negative and conjures up images of submissiveness and exploit, while these cultures consider it to be a sign of respect.
They also do not realize that in these cultures, there are areas in which it’s the men who are respectfully obedient to the women.
I’ve seen many examples of that.
SO HOW DO WE DECIDE WHAT IS ISLAMIC WHEN THE HUMANS BEHAVE IN SO MANY DIFFERENT WAYS?
To me, the answer is simple: The Quran is the ultimate Criterion to determine if an action is Islamic or not. It sets the framework for what Islam is.
@Sufi Muslim
Hey, I can see that you’re a nice guy, and I don’t want to put you on the spot. But you have to admit, if I were a woman, I might find it curious that the Koran only talks about obedience to men, and never obedience to women (other than children and parents). If I were a woman, I might find that curious, even though I understand that in some instances in Muslim societies, as you say, it is the men who are obedient to their wives, like my father for instance, in his obedience to my mother (most of the time).
But there are examples of things that women are unable to do, that men are able to do. For instance, a man can perform the pilgrimage to Mecca, or perform the Hajj, by himself. A woman has to be accompanied by a man. If I were a woman, I might find it curious why I couldn’t perform it by myself.
I’m just trying to point out, that maybe you can appreciate, that from a western woman’s eyes, who can pretty much do anything on her own, these words and rules might seem a little dated. That’s all.
Please understand, that I have no particular animosity towards Islam, but towards all religions. And I’m definitely not trying to pick on you. I’m just trying to point out that maybe you can appreciate, why sometimes our religion seems alien to people living in the west.
Cheers.
@Sufi Muslim –
Earlier, you wrote:
When you refer to “most Muslims” in the first case, and (curiously, only) “many other Muslims” in the second, isn’t that the exact same kind of evidence that’s provided by a poll? That same Pew Research poll found that, “Muslims around the world strongly reject violence in the name of Islam…. In most countries where the question was asked, roughly three-quarters or more Muslims reject suicide bombing and other forms of violence against civilians.” So, that corroborates your first statement. My questions to you are: 1) do you think that particular finding of the poll is also simplistic, and 2) in general, when determining the attitudes and beliefs of a group, do you think it’s more reliable to ask a single individual (like yourself) what many or most group members think, or to scientifically poll a statistically significant percentage of the group?
Btw, the reason we’re talking about quantities of Muslims is because, “Human beings *interpret* religious writings, and they do it using certain methods…. When someone says: ‘Islam says [insert text here]’, in reality, they are saying: ‘Islam, as I understand it, says [insert text here]'”. So, granting that, there’s no sense arguing about what the Quran has to say about anything.(*) Instead, we jump straight to how it’s being interpreted by “most” or “many” Muslims, which is exactly what you did, and which is why I went looking for a poll.
And the poll is finding “overwhelming majorities” of Muslims from several regions, which greatly enhances its value as evidence.
(*) You wrote: “The Quran is the ultimate Criterion to determine if an action is Islamic or not. It sets the framework for what Islam is.” But that can only be true for each individual Muslim, since you said that the Quran says what each individual understands it to be saying. Therefore the Quran can tell us nothing about what Muslims think as a group.
“We Build Hospitals..”
Indeed.
http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/hospital-evacuate-patients.html
Supporting link: http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/07/19/371948/israel-war-causes-catastrophe-in-gaza/
`lyra..
aloha
@ suave:
I try to do one good deed everyday.
Peace.
Sounds good, Mona, except here in the USA, the notion of Israel as a nation of oppressed Woody Allens surrounded by ravening religious savages out to destroy them is a sacrosanct doctrine in the halls of Congress. Bananas!
Thank you for your comment Marianne. Thank the God I don’t believe in for Glenn Greenwald, and Max Blumenthal, and Phil Weiss of Mondoweiss. And the best of wishes to Ayman Mohyeldin.
Before he interviewed the Israeli government spokesperson (last night), Hayes had Sharif Abdel Kouddous give a four minute report from Gaza. As far as I can tell, he gave the same report that he would have on Democracy Now.
Zero Fuckups Policy.
Sure not the flight plan for this logger’s jam stand. But Sometimes a Great Notion might drown a future global game player’s father…That was a tragic kissing scene.
‘The American Jewish Cocoon’ – Peter Beinart
re: commonsensimilla
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2013/sep/26/american-jewish-cocoon/?pagination=false
ht`gator
Gee, ya think?
That is some real understatement Beinart has going on there.
Give Beinart some credit, Mona. He is trying.
The Harris-Gershon article you linked was well worth reading. As you surmised, I can certainly relate to his struggles and quandaries. For myself, it is resolved. Zionism — the good intentions of many Zionists notwithstanding — is untenable, both ethically and practically. The Jews of Israel and elsewhere have a choice: maintain the doomed illusion of a “democratic” and “Jewish” nation-state through brutal force and raw, murderous power; or try to rediscover our souls.
Gator admonishes me:
Oh, I know. But truly, I’m pretty nice about him, whereas some of your fellow anti-Zionist Jews can be extremely impatient — even mean — to poor Peter.
There is one, very big thing I’ve not seen explicitly mentioned here yet.
The Holocaust.
Yes, Zionists have used and abused that horror for cheap propaganda and justification purposes. But it remains an enormous reality.
For that reason, I completely understand why post-WWII Jews would have been traumatized into figuring they damn well better create a safe haven, and screw anybody who got in their way. After all, it isn’t as if the West was particularly helpful — at least not in time for 6 million.
Which is to say, it’s hard to think of a people who have had a better excuse for armed-to-the-teeth ethnic nationalism.
But as I came to see, that very good reason cannot alter the intrinsic racism and fascism inherent in such a scheme. It just can’t. It is adopted to save Jewish bodies, but ends in killing Palestinian bodies and Jewish souls.
One would think that Diane Sawyer who has been in broadcast journalism for about forty years would be able to tell the difference between a street scene in Gaza and one in any city in Israel even in peace time to same nothing about during a siege. If she doesn’t know the difference, what can the people who get their news from the msm know?
The latest news from that plucky Israel, the “only democarcy,” and all that:
Video follows here: http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/relatives-apparent-revenge.html
Snowden = limited hangout.
Can anyone tell me how Snowden has made my life better? Shit, I have more reason to appreciate Obama than I do Snowden, and I take a big shit on Obama’s face every morning. At least Obama gave me some Medicaid… what the fuck did Snowden do except secure Greenwald a NYTimes bestseller?
His worshippers never seem to explain that, do they.
He’s certainly not interested in making the lives of Palestinians better.
“The U.S. support of Israel is the least worst scenario.”
And his sycophantic followers can’t get enough of him. Greenwald worships the ground he walks on. Tells you all you need to know.
I love those encryption tools like tor. My internet connection is much more stable now. Tails is a perfect and easy to use way in the internet without giving access to my private computer stuff. My new email provider is very user friendly. I have something else to talk about than just about ADLs. And my sister is deeply surprised about her daughters profound knowledge on human anatomics.
The Snowden legacy wouldn’t exist if the lies & atrocities by Bush/Obama didn’t exist. Snowden just brought it to light.
The man is totally irresponsible! Indulging himself as a refugee in Russia, when he should be laboring to make your life better. As a result, you may have no recourse but to make your life better yourself (only joking – I would never advocate such an extreme action).
Shades of recommend buttons. In leu of… that was priceless.
Shades of non existent edit functions..in “lieu ” of which…
@chronicle – here’s a repost for you since you’re too much of a coward to respond:
awww chronicle, would you like a kleenex?
You know…. isn’t it hysterical that the same impotent leftover lefties from the 70?s and their impotent sycophantic admirers not only come out of the woods to discipline any dissidents that don’t tow the line of Queen Amy Goodbitch, but also delude themselves into believing they have anything left to give the world? So, fuck your appeals to authority, which you don’t merit, and your appeals to sympathy, which are only manipulative tactics to keep your bank accounts full.
What the fuck makes you think you can stop the carnage by repressing dissent within your own ranks? You did it with the Obama election, but you lost all credibility because of your phony pandering, and now THE CHICKENS ARE COMING HOME TO ROOST MOTHERFUCKER! You get it? You talk about exclusion, yet you exclude people every fucking day. What is more hypocritical than that?
Also, “the adults of the planet”?? Who are they? Chris Hayes? Jeremy Scahill? Glenn Greenwald? You got some nerve to consider yourself high and mighty when the only reason you cocksuckers get to have your forum is because you towed the line and ate asshole to get to where you are. Good example you’ve set. I see how much “good” you’ve done. Why don’t you go up to MIT and let Noam Chomsky give you a pat on the back. Maybe he can tell you how much change you’ve effected in the world while you sit back and sip wine discussing Greenwald’s new best seller. Fuckin Phonies! You should be unemployed for just one year and see how it feels you piece of shit!
Finally, we will see each other face to face someday… and when we do you’d better pucker up and kiss my ass because one thumbs down and that’s your ass.
What’s up, Doc?
P.S. You cunts wish I would go away hahahahah not a chance. I’m gonna be a thorn in your side every chance I get. When you get blacklisted by those who masquerade as being blacklisted to appeal to the sympathies of idiot trustfund kids, and then you have nowhere to turn, revenge is the name of the game. If you want a ceasefire you could start by kissing my ass and apologizing!! Otherwise, expect me!!
PeachCobbler=chromosomally aberrant pond scum who’s done diddly squat in his entire pathetic existence on this planet except consume excrement and reproduce more pond scum on the surface of his cesspool home.
The kiddy version: Eat shit, drink wee and kiss a penis.
According to the Guardian (yesterday):
“…….As diplomatic efforts to end the conflict continued in Cairo and at the UN, Hamas was looking increasingly isolated in its refusal to negotiate a truce without concessions in advance. It wants prisoners released and the easing of the blockade on Gaza by both Israel and Egypt…..”
This is the reason behind the current escalation of the conflict, and the murder of the Jewish teenagers. Times are tough in Gaza for Hamas. Their parent organization, the Muslim Brotherhood, was removed from power in Egypt and Iran is tied up in Syria maintaining the Assad regime In addition, they are negotiating a nuclear treaty with the US which will ease the sanctions. Al-Sissi has tightened the border again.
“……..”[Thursday night’s] operation came after Israel agreed to the Egyptian ceasefire proposal and to the UN initiative for a humanitarian truce,” Netanyahu told his security cabinet. “In both cases, Hamas continued firing. We chose to commence this operation after we had exhausted the other possibilities.”……..”
None of this is surprising. Hamas knew the consequences of the kidnappings and murder of the Jewish teens. They knew that Palestinians would bear the brunt of the assault (with few Israeli casualties). This story has been repeated over and over. Hamas had an opportunity to stop the violence and murder of Palestinian civilians but continued fighting. As a true Islamic resistance party (like the “Party of God” in Lebanon), there are certain obligations – and sacrificing the people who voted you into office is one of them. But propaganda has its rewards – and maybe they can negotiate an end to the boycott. The deaths will have been worth it if that’s the case.
“……..But with the Palestinian death toll rising over 300, it is the Hamas leadership that has come under increasing pressure from multiple international sources to accept an immediate ceasefire in Gaza……Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas, a Hamas rival, had argued until the small hours of Friday with representatives of Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad, another Gaza-based group, in a failed attempt to get them to agree to a truce……On Friday Abbas flew to Turkey to ask the prime minister, Recep Erdogan – who has better relations with Hamas – to persuade the group to accept a ceasefire……maybe Turkey and Qatar [another Hamas ally] will have something,” said Gamal Shobky, Abbas’s envoy in Cairo. “We need this quickly to stop Palestinian blood.”
It’s up to Hamas (and apparently Islamic Jihad).
Craig, Israel must accept Hamas’ entirely reasonable demands. They should have been the status quo ante. These demands are:
Many Palestinians see no reason to have their blood spilled in vain; to return to the intolerable suffering imposed on them by Israel. Unless forced by global moral outrage to agree to these terms, Israel would eagerly glom onto the new status quo that is in its monstrous favor, as it so usually does.
Hamas and the Palestinians now have one source of leverage: the world is on their side, and Israel is seen as a grotesque criminal. Pictures of Israelis celebrating the bombing, bloodthirsty and vicious Facebook postings by Israelis — all of that is going viral online.
Israel is, however, so arrogant it doesn’t see, or doesn’t let itself care, that it is bleeding good will be the minute. That will continue as long as the hideous bombardment does.
“…….Many Palestinians see no reason to have their blood spilled in vain; to return to the intolerable suffering imposed on them by Israel. Unless forced by global moral outrage to agree to these terms, Israel would eagerly glom onto the new status quo that is in its monstrous favor, as it so usually does……”
Many Palestinians Mona? Do they have a choice? Did they take a vote on kidnapping and murdering the Israeli teens? In fact, when was the last time Gazans voted for Hamas to rule in Gaza? How about 2005, Mona.
The truth is more along the lines of Hamas (and Islamic Jihad) decide when to end the fighting. Gazans have no say in that decision – and it doesn’t matter how many are killed. In fact, the more civilians killed the better because of the “global moral outrage”. You laid bare the strategy of Hamas. Gazans suffer, Hamas negotiates.
But what is the end game for Hamas, Mona? They can never been content with a Jewish state, thus the rockets, kidnappings and murder must continue.
By the way Mona, did you hear that a passenger airliner was downed by the Russian sponsored rebels in Ukraine? Three hundred people were killed by Russia supplied missiles capable of bringing down an 777 jet at 33000 feet. Those missile systems take special training to operate. Just thought I would fill you in on the latest news as long as we are discussing global moral outrage.
Thanks.
Oh Craig, few doubt that Hamas had become quite unpopular with Gazans — until Israel’s latest terror campaign. As a columnist in the Guardian recently put it:
I interact with many Palestinians online. As anguished, grief-stricken and shell-shocked as they are, they do NOT want to accept the status quo which aggressor Israel has oppressively inflicted on them.
What people would?
Oh, and Craig? My point is made in the same Guardian article you quote:
An elected government was overthrown by a military coup.
And his coup government will be rewarded with over $1 Billion dollars in US aid and arms this year.
When was the last time the the US government didn’t oppose an elected government in Gaza?
Rebelling against a government that came to power after a US backed coup.
Your comments are just a very small tribute to those rewards.
Hi Doc
I always enjoy your replies. You clearly put a lot of time and thought in to your responses(?)
“…….An elected government was overthrown by a military coup……”
There certainly is some truth in that statement, Doc. Millions of Egyptians protested in the street against the rule of Morsi. He was certainly a clueless leader. He managed to marginalize the same protesters that helped bring down Mubarak – and give him the opportunity to be elected President. Yes, a military coup – before the protests got really out of hand.
“…….And his coup government will be rewarded with over $1 Billion dollars in US aid and arms this year……..”
Of course, aid has been delivered to Egypt since the Camp David Accords in 1979. Lets not also forget that the parent organization of the terrorists organization elected to power in Gaza is the Muslim Brotherhood which was declared a terrorist organization by al-Sissi this year. It’s something I don’t agree with because Egypt is a very divided country having elected the MB to power. None the less, the move by al-Sissi to close the borders to a subsidiary of the MB makes sense within the context of his declaring the MB a terrorist organization. It’s not all US politics. Al- Sissi had a horse in the race as well
“……When was the last time the the US government didn’t oppose an elected government in Gaza?….”
Don’t be stupid Doc. The US declared (rightly) Hamas to be a terrorist organization, so it makes sense that the US will always oppose a Hamas government (whether elected or not). But you have (purposely) missed the point. Hamas would never risk giving up power in Gaza through an election. First of all, they are militarily too strong for anyone to challenge them. Secondly, Iran would certainly oppose any elections – and they supply the financing and weapons for Hamas. Hamas simply determined that the murder of Palestinians in a war with Israel would benefit the Palestinian cause. No one had a say in that decision, but them. No one would kidnap and murder three Israeli teens without their OK.
“……..Rebelling against a government that came to power after a US backed coup…….”
Totally fabricated.
Thanks Doc.
It makes no sense at all. Israel elected two terrorists as their prime minister. So did South Africa elect the terrorist ANC leader, Nelson Mandela.
It’s pretty common for yesterday’s designated terrorists to be today’s statesmen. Ignoring this realty, including vis-a-vis Hamas, is unproductive and foolish.
The reality is Mona that Hamas has not rejected violence or recognized the state of Israel. Hamas has not rejected their racist charter which specifically calls for the return of Israel to as Islamic Holy Land. As long as they retain their racist charter, they will continue to be viewed as a terrorist organization by the US – and more importantly, Israel.
Mandela was a great leader and unified South Africa. The goal of Hamas (basically the same as yours) is to dismantle the state of Israel – the Jewish state – and replace it with an Islamic state (something that you would – ironically enough – support).
It doesn’t take much to get CraigSummers making arguments against CraigSummers:
There was an election in Palestine; an election that – despite US interference to secure a Fatah victory – Hamas won. So then the US decided elections aren’t such a good thing for the Palestinians after all, and refused to recognize the newly elected government. Not happy merely to reject a democratic outcome that didn’t turn out “our way”, the US then pushed a Fatah coup that failed.
It was the US that interfered with the elections, it was the US that opposed the results of the election, and it was the US that tried to change the outcome of the elections with violence.
What should we make of America’s opposition to the Palestinian elections and what might that mean for the future? For CraigSummers, the conclusion is obvious – no thought required:
:)
Cute Doc.
Yes, Hamas was elected to power, but Hamas has never allowed that power to be challenged (since the elections in 2005). It’s one thing to be elected, it’s another to allow elections to challenge your leadership. That hasn’t happened – and that’s my point. Hitler also was elected and we all know what happened. The election of Hamas was simply bad for the Palestinians. Period
Along those lines, however, the Palestinian people freely elected a terrorist organization to power – one that opposes the existence of a Jewish state. They voted for that option. So the Palestinians have no one to blame but themselves for the current state of affairs in Gaza. They chose continuous struggle against Israel. They chose continuous war against Israel. They chose the racist charter of Hamas which calls for the return of Israel to Islamic Holy Land – an absolute non starter for peace.
By choosing Hamas, they chose the organization most likely to kidnap and murder Israeli teens leading to the bloodshed today. The Palestinians chose continuous war. How did they respond? With white flags trying to get out of the war zone – created by Hamas.
If the US tried to get rid of Hamas, then more power to our government because the election of Hamas has been a disaster for the Palestinians. That’s responsible leadership by the new “unity” government: Hamas praised the kidnapping of three Israeli teenagers who were murdered. The “unity” government failed badly and the Palestinians paid for it. And they will continue to pay as long as Hamas is in power (and supported by Iran who pays the bills).
Thanks Doc. As always, its been a pleasure.
So to recap: CraigSummers faults Hamas for, among other things, not being sufficiently democratic, then explains why the US will always (and “rightly”) oppose a democratically sufficient Hamas, and besides, the way the Palestinians voted “was simply bad for the Palestinians. Period”. And though it was the US that repeatedly thwarted Hamas’s democratic participation, CraigSummers warns that it is Iran that will “certainly oppose” democracy for the Palestinians.
…and then there’s Hitler.
As usual Doc, you skirt the issue with classic double-talk. The US supported Fatah overthrowing Hamas, but it failed. So you can attempt to blame the US all you want, but the Palestinians are the ones that voted Hamas to power. At some point you are going to have to quit blaming everyone else but the people responsible. So the Palestinians are the ones responsible for their current plight. What you wrote was cute, but hardly a rebuttal to the argument.
The Palestinians chose continual war over peace when they elected Hamas. They chose economic ruin over working with Israel. They chose the path they are on today.
Simple.
Thanks Doc.
blockquote>”Totally fabricated.”Right, because even though it backed the coup government in Ukraine, there’s just no way the USA would ever back a coup in Ukraine.
or in
Iran
Haiti
Chile
Palestine (“then more power to our government” says CraigSummers)
Greece
Albania
Guatemala
Syria
Laos (3 times)
Cuba (many times)
Egypt
Indonesia
Venezuela
British Guiana
Vietnam
Ecuador
Afghanistan
Congo
China
Brazil
Dominican Republic
Bolivia
Indonesia
Ghana
Costa Rica
Angola (at least twice)
Zaire
Bulgaria
Portugal
Chad
South Yemen
Fiji
Nicaragua
Honduras
Panama
You gotta love that reply which provided not one shred of proof for the fabricated “coup in Ukraine”. When you come up with concrete evidence of the “US sponsored coup”, let me know. In the mean time you were lying
Thanks Doc
“Our American friends promise to pay a visit in the coming days, we may even see [U.S. Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs Victoria] Nuland or someone from the Congress.” 12/7/2013 from a series of leaked emails between a Lithuanian government advisor and Vitaly Klitschko, leader of the opposition party (pre-coup) Ukrainian Democratic Alliance for Reform
Less than a week after that email, Nuland met with ‘key Ukrainian stakeholders’ included Svoboda party leader Oleh Tyahnybok and soon to be prime minister Arsenly Yatsenyuk of the Fatherland Party. At about the same time, US Senators John McCain and Chris Murphy appeared in Kiev with Tyahnybok offering their support to him and their opposition to the sitting government.
Senator McCain even appeared on stage with Tyahnybok
Nuland met again weeks later with Tyahnybok and Yatsenyuk before the coup that handed them power in Ukraine’s new US-backed interim government.
You can find pics of Tyahnybok proudly straight-armed saluting his party (link won’t get through spam filter – just Google Tyahnybok & salute
Even the American Conservative had to call out “McCain’s Consistently Poor Judgment” for allowing himself to be associated with Tyahnybok: “as the U.K.’s Channel 4 news points out, McCain was repeatedly photographed with Oleh Tyahnybok, the leader of the right wing nationalist party Svoboda.”
After the visits, there was another Klitschko email: “I think we’ve paved the way for more radical escalation of the situation. Isn’t it time to proceed with more decisive action?” 1/9/2014
And of course, there’s Nuland’s now famous pre-coup “[email protected] the EU” (for which she later publicly apologized, leaving no doubt it was her in the conversation) taped phone conversation with US ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt discussing Klitschko post-coup role, her wish for Tyahnybok to remain “on the outside” (he didn’t – the Svoboda party would get three high level cabinet posts in the post-coup government including deputy prime minister; even the best laid plans don’t always go exactly the way the US wants) and the need to consult with the US’s replacement for still Prime MinisterYanukovich, Yatsenyuk, “four times a week.”
And that’s all before the coup
After the coup, there’s Vice President Biden call to Yatsenyuk to congratulate him on his new interim government post, the CIA and FBI sending dozens of “advisors” to assist the post-coup security forces (headed by a charming member of the Svoboda party), and CIA Director John Brennan’s visit to Ukraine, first denied but later admitted this past April. One only has to look back at MSM details of the US officials offering praise and support for the coup.
Despite all this and the many supportive pronouncements coming from the White House and State Department that were broadcast repeatedly on the MSM, for CraigSummers it’s a “total fabrication” and “there’s not one shred of proof” that the US backed the coup – the “US sponsored” put in quotes is a false attribution from CraigSummers; those are his words, not mine.
[Original post had links to stories and pics of Nuland and McCain with their very right-wing friends, but they couldn’t get past the spam filters]
– That’s CraigSummers once again taking issue with CraigSummers.
The “classic double-talk” is his claims – all of them came from him – put one after the other instead of spread across the jumble of his several posts.
Still not a hint of evidence, Doc.
Some “shreds”:
“Our American friends promise to pay a visit in the coming days, we may even see [U.S. Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs Victoria] Nuland or someone from the Congress.” 12/7/2013 from a series of leaked emails between a Lithuanian government advisor and Vitaly Klitschko, leader of the opposition (pre-coup) party Ukrainian Democratic Alliance for Reform
Less than a week after that email, Nuland met with ‘key Ukrainian stakeholders’ included Svoboda party leader Oleh Tyahnybok and soon to be prime minister Arsenly Yatsenyuk of the Fatherland Party. At about the same time, US Senators John McCain and Chris Murphy appeared in Kiev with Tyahnybok offering their support to him and their opposition to the sitting government.
[Here’s Senator McCain appearing on stage with Tyahnybok http://www.businessinsider.com/john-mccain-meets-oleh-tyahnybok-in-ukraine-2013-12
Here’s Nuland meeting again weeks later with Tyahnybok and Yatsenyuk before the coup that handed them power in Ukraine’s new US-backed interim government: http://in.reuters.com/article/2014/02/08/ukraine-call-idINDEEA1704520140208
Here’s the same Tyahnybok saluting his party: http://ronaldthomaswest.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/nazi_salute.jpg
And a little more history: http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-20824693
Even the American Conservative had to call out “McCain’s Consistently Poor Judgment” for allowing himself to be associated with Tyahnybok: “as the U.K.’s Channel 4 news points out, McCain was repeatedly photographed with Oleh Tyahnybok, the leader of the right wing nationalist party Svoboda.”
After the visits, there was another Klitschko email: “I think we’ve paved the way for more radical escalation of the situation. Isn’t it time to proceed with more decisive action?” 1/9/2014
And of course, there’s Nuland’s now famous pre-coup “[email protected] the EU” (for which she later publicly apologized, leaving no doubt it was her in the conversation) taped phone conversation with US ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt discussing Klitschko post-coup role, her wish for Tyahnybok to remain “on the outside” (he didn’t – the Svoboda party would get three high level cabinet posts in the post-coup government including deputy prime minister; even the best laid plans don’t always go exactly the way the US wants) and the need to consult with the US’s replacement for still Prime MinisterYanukovich, Yatsenyuk, “four times a week.”
http://orientalreview.org/2014/02/07/what-about-apologizing-to-ukraine-mrs-nuland/
And that’s all before the coup
After the coup, there’s Vice President Biden call to Yatsenyuk to congratulate him on his new interim government post, the CIA and FBI sending dozens of “advisors” to assist the post-coup security forces (headed by a charming member of the Svoboda party), and CIA Director John Brennan’s visit to Ukraine, first denied but later admitted this past April. One only has to look back at MSM details of the US officials offering praise and support for the coup.
Despite all this and the many supportive pronouncements coming from the White House and State Department that were broadcast repeatedly on the MSM, for CraigSummers it’s a “total” fabrication” and “there’s not one shred of proof” that the US backed the coup – the “US sponsored” put in quotes is a false attribution from CraigSummers; those are his words, not mine.
Some “shreds”:
“Our American friends promise to pay a visit in the coming days, we may even see [U.S. Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs Victoria] Nuland or someone from the Congress.” 12/7/2013 from a series of leaked emails between a Lithuanian government advisor and Vitaly Klitschko, leader of the opposition party (pre-coup) Ukrainian Democratic Alliance for Reform
Less than a week after that email, Nuland met with ‘key Ukrainian stakeholders’ included Svoboda party leader Oleh Tyahnybok and soon to be prime minister Arsenly Yatsenyuk of the Fatherland Party. At about the same time, US Senators John McCain and Chris Murphy appeared in Kiev with Tyahnybok offering their support to him and their opposition to the sitting government.
[Here’s Senator McCain appearing on stage with Tyahnybok http://www.businessinsider.com/john-mccain-meets-oleh-tyahnybok-in-ukraine-2013-12
Here’s Nuland meeting again weeks later with Tyahnybok and Yatsenyuk before the coup that handed them power in Ukraine’s new US-backed interim government: http://in.reuters.com/article/2014/02/08/ukraine-call-idINDEEA1704520140208
Here’s the same Tyahnybok saluting his party: http://ronaldthomaswest.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/nazi_salute.jpg
And a little more history: http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-20824693
Even the American Conservative had to call out “McCain’s Consistently Poor Judgment” for allowing himself to be associated with Tyahnybok: “as the U.K.’s Channel 4 news points out, McCain was repeatedly photographed with Oleh Tyahnybok, the leader of the right wing nationalist party Svoboda.”
After the visits, there was another Klitschko email: “I think we’ve paved the way for more radical escalation of the situation. Isn’t it time to proceed with more decisive action?” 1/9/2014
And of course, there’s Nuland’s now famous pre-coup “[email protected] the EU” (for which she later publicly apologized, leaving no doubt it was her in the conversation) taped phone conversation with US ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt discussing Klitschko post-coup role, her wish for Tyahnybok to remain “on the outside” (he didn’t – the Svoboda party would get three high level cabinet posts in the post-coup government including deputy prime minister; even the best laid plans don’t always go exactly the way the US wants) and the need to consult with the US’s replacement for still Prime MinisterYanukovich, Yatsenyuk, “four times a week.”
http://orientalreview.org/2014/02/07/what-about-apologizing-to-ukraine-mrs-nuland/
And that’s all before the coup
After the coup, there’s Vice President Biden call to Yatsenyuk to congratulate him on his new interim government post, the CIA and FBI sending dozens of “advisors” to assist the post-coup security forces (headed by a charming member of the Svoboda party), and CIA Director John Brennan’s visit to Ukraine, first denied but later admitted this past April. One only has to look back at MSM details of the US officials offering praise and support for the coup.
Despite all this and the many supportive pronouncements coming from the White House and State Department that were broadcast repeatedly on the MSM, for CraigSummers it’s a “total” fabrication” and “there’s not one shred of proof” that the US backed the coup – the “US sponsored” put in quotes is a false attribution from CraigSummers; those are his words, not mine.
Some “shreds”:
“Our American friends promise to pay a visit in the coming days, we may even see [U.S. Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs Victoria] Nuland or someone from the Congress.” 12/7/2013 from a series of leaked emails between a Lithuanian government advisor and Vitaly Klitschko, leader of the opposition party (pre-coup) Ukrainian Democratic Alliance for Reform
Less than a week after that email, Nuland met with ‘key Ukrainian stakeholders’ included Svoboda party leader Oleh Tyahnybok and soon to be prime minister Arsenly Yatsenyuk of the Fatherland Party. At about the same time, US Senators John McCain and Chris Murphy appeared in Kiev with Tyahnybok offering their support to him and their opposition to the sitting government. Senator McCain even appeared on stage with Tyahnybok
Nuland met again weeks later with Tyahnybok and Yatsenyuk before the coup that handed them power in Ukraine’s new US-backed interim government.
Here’s the same Tyahnybok saluting his party: http://ronaldthomaswest.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/nazi_salute.jpg
Even the American Conservative had to call out “McCain’s Consistently Poor Judgment” for allowing himself to be associated with Tyahnybok: “as the U.K.’s Channel 4 news points out, McCain was repeatedly photographed with Oleh Tyahnybok, the leader of the right wing nationalist party Svoboda.”
After the visits, there was another Klitschko email: “I think we’ve paved the way for more radical escalation of the situation. Isn’t it time to proceed with more decisive action?” 1/9/2014
And of course, there’s Nuland’s now famous pre-coup “[email protected] the EU” (for which she later publicly apologized, leaving no doubt it was her in the conversation) taped phone conversation with US ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt discussing Klitschko post-coup role, her wish for Tyahnybok to remain “on the outside” (he didn’t – the Svoboda party would get three high level cabinet posts in the post-coup government including deputy prime minister; even the best laid plans don’t always go exactly the way the US wants) and the need to consult with the US’s replacement for still Prime MinisterYanukovich, Yatsenyuk, “four times a week.”
And that’s all before the coup
After the coup, there’s Vice President Biden call to Yatsenyuk to congratulate him on his new interim government post, the CIA and FBI sending dozens of “advisors” to assist the post-coup security forces (headed by a charming member of the Svoboda party), and CIA Director John Brennan’s visit to Ukraine, first denied but later admitted this past April. One only has to look back at MSM details of the US officials offering praise and support for the coup.
Despite all this and the many supportive pronouncements coming from the White House and State Department that were broadcast repeatedly on the MSM, for CraigSummers it’s a “total” fabrication” and “there’s not one shred of proof” that the US backed the coup – the “US sponsored” put in quotes is a false attribution from CraigSummers; those are his words, not mine.
[Original post had links to articles and pics of Nuland and McCain with their new found rightwing Ukrainian friends, but they didn’t past the spam filters here.
One did: Tyahnybok proudly displaying his straight-armed salute
“Our American friends promise to pay a visit in the coming days, we may even see [U.S. Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs Victoria] Nuland or someone from the Congress.” 12/7/2013 from a series of leaked emails between a Lithuanian government advisor and Vitaly Klitschko, leader of the opposition party (pre-coup) Ukrainian Democratic Alliance for Reform
Less than a week after that email, Nuland met with ‘key Ukrainian stakeholders’ included Svoboda party leader Oleh Tyahnybok and soon to be prime minister Arsenly Yatsenyuk of the Fatherland Party. At about the same time, US Senators John McCain and Chris Murphy appeared in Kiev with Tyahnybok offering their support to him and their opposition to the sitting government.
Senator McCain even appeared on stage with Tyahnybok
Nuland met again weeks later with Tyahnybok and Yatsenyuk before the coup that handed them power in Ukraine’s new US-backed interim government.
You can find pics of Tyahnybok proudly straight-armed saluting his party (link won’t get through spam filter – just Google Tyahnybok & salute)
Even the American Conservative had to call out “McCain’s Consistently Poor Judgment” for allowing himself to be associated with Tyahnybok: “as the U.K.’s Channel 4 news points out, McCain was repeatedly photographed with Oleh Tyahnybok, the leader of the right wing nationalist party Svoboda.”
After the visits, there was another Klitschko email: “I think we’ve paved the way for more radical escalation of the situation. Isn’t it time to proceed with more decisive action?” 1/9/2014
And of course, there’s Nuland’s now famous pre-coup “[email protected] the EU” (for which she later publicly apologized, leaving no doubt it was her in the conversation) taped phone conversation with US ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt discussing Klitschko post-coup role, her wish for Tyahnybok to remain “on the outside” (he didn’t – the Svoboda party would get three high level cabinet posts in the post-coup government including deputy prime minister; even the best laid plans don’t always go exactly the way the US wants) and the need to consult with the US’s replacement for still Prime MinisterYanukovich, Yatsenyuk, “four times a week.”
And that’s all before the coup
After the coup, there’s Vice President Biden call to Yatsenyuk to congratulate him on his new interim government post, the CIA and FBI sending dozens of “advisors” to assist the post-coup security forces (headed by a charming member of the Svoboda party), and CIA Director John Brennan’s visit to Ukraine, first denied but later admitted this past April. One only has to look back at MSM reports to find US officials offering praise and support for the coup.
Despite all this and the many supportive pronouncements coming from the White House and State Department that were broadcast repeatedly on the MSM, for CraigSummers it’s a “total fabrication” and “there’s not one shred of proof” that the US backed the coup – the “US sponsored” put in quotes is a false attribution from CraigSummers; those are his words, not mine.
[Original post had links to stories and pics of Nuland and McCain with their very right-wing friends, but they couldn’t get past the spam filters]
“Our American friends promise to pay a visit in the coming days, we may even see [U.S. Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs Victoria] Nuland or someone from the Congress.” 12/7/2013 from a series of leaked emails between a Lithuanian government advisor and Vitaly Klitschko, leader of the opposition party (pre-coup) Ukrainian Democratic Alliance for Reform
Less than a week after that email, Nuland met with ‘key Ukrainian stakeholders’ included Svoboda party leader Oleh Tyahnybok and soon to be prime minister Arsenly Yatsenyuk of the Fatherland Party. At about the same time, US Senators John McCain and Chris Murphy appeared in Kiev with Tyahnybok offering their support to him and their opposition to the sitting government.
Senator McCain even appeared on stage with Tyahnybok
Nuland met again weeks later with Tyahnybok and Yatsenyuk before the coup that handed them power in Ukraine’s new US-backed interim government.
You can find pics of Tyahnybok proudly straight-armed saluting his party (link won’t get through spam filter – just Google Tyahnybok & salute
Even the American Conservative had to call out “McCain’s Consistently Poor Judgment” for allowing himself to be associated with Tyahnybok: “as the U.K.’s Channel 4 news points out, McCain was repeatedly photographed with Oleh Tyahnybok, the leader of the right wing nationalist party Svoboda.”
After the visits, there was another Klitschko email: “I think we’ve paved the way for more radical escalation of the situation. Isn’t it time to proceed with more decisive action?” 1/9/2014
And of course, there’s Nuland’s now famous pre-coup “[email protected] the EU” (for which she later publicly apologized, leaving no doubt it was her in the conversation) taped phone conversation with US ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt discussing Klitschko post-coup role, her wish for Tyahnybok to remain “on the outside” (he didn’t – the Svoboda party would get three high level cabinet posts in the post-coup government including deputy prime minister; even the best laid plans don’t always go exactly the way the US wants) and the need to consult with the US’s replacement for still Prime MinisterYanukovich, Yatsenyuk, “four times a week.”
And that’s all before the coup
After the coup, there’s Vice President Biden call to Yatsenyuk to congratulate him on his new interim government post, the CIA and FBI sending dozens of “advisors” to assist the post-coup security forces (headed by a charming member of the Svoboda party), and CIA Director John Brennan’s visit to Ukraine, first denied but later admitted this past April. One only has to look back at MSM details of the US officials offering praise and support for the coup.
Despite all this and the many supportive pronouncements coming from the White House and State Department that were broadcast repeatedly on the MSM, for CraigSummers it’s a “total fabrication” and “there’s not one shred of proof” that the US backed the coup – the “US sponsored” put in quotes is a false attribution from CraigSummers; those are his words, not mine.
[Original post had links to stories and pics of Nuland and McCain with their very right-wing friends, but they couldn’t get past the spam filters]
Doc
What is really interesting in your interpretation of a US “coup” is you never even mention Russia as if Russia had no bearing on the outcome. That’s classic acceptance of a “sphere of influence” of Russia i.e., the US was meddling in Russia’s area of interest and clearly had no right. Sorry, the Warsaw Pact ended twenty years ago – and Russia has no legitimate rights in Ukraine (and they were even less legitimate then).
This is so typical of fringe leftist like yourself. Russian intelligence and secret police were all over Kiev during the demonstrations. Putin pressured Yanukovych. What is also amazing is that you can’t seem to understand that western Ukrainians rightfully resented the Russian puppet after living under Soviet control for decades. You are so fucking anti American that you can’t see the forest for the redwoods. The protests “…….originally erupted in November 2013 after President Viktor Yanukovych chose not to sign a political association and free trade agreement with the European Union at the summit of the Eastern Partnership at Vilnius, choosing closer ties with Russia instead……”
That had absolutely nothing to do with the US. According to Wikipedia:
“…….The fact that Yanukovych was perceived as trying to establish closer ties with Russia played a major role in the protests. Yanukovych accepted “bail-out” money, $2 billion out of a $15 billion package, from Russia and this was interpreted as a sign that he would seek close ties with Putin.[69] Russian authorities had been pressuring the Ukrainian administration to take decisive action to crush protests; and it has been noted that the assault on Euromaidan protesters by police was ordered hours after the $2 billion from Russia was transferred.[70][71] Several ministers from across Europe blamed Russia for exacerbating the violence.[72] During a 20 February interview, the retired[73] Colonel of the Main Intelligence Directorate of Russia (GRU) Aleksandr Musienko stated that the conflict could only be solved by means of force, and that Ukraine had proven it could not exist as an independent sovereign state.[73][74…….”
Furthermore
“……..During a press conference on 3 April 2014, Ukraine’s new interior minister, chief prosecutor and top security chief implicated more than 30 Russian FSB agents in the crackdown on protesters, who in addition to taking part in the planning, had also flown in shipments of large quantities of explosives into an airport near Kiev. Valentyn Nalyvaichenko, the interim head of Ukraine’s SBU state security agency, said the agents were stationed in Kiev during the entire Euromaidan protests, were provided with “state telecommunications” while residing at an SBU compound, and in regular contact with Ukrainian security officials. “We have substantiated grounds to consider that these very groups which were located at an SBU training ground took part in the planning and execution of activities of this so-called antiterrorist operation,” said Nalyvaichenko. Investigators, he said, had established that Yanukovych’s SBU chief Oleksandr Yakymenko, who later fled the country, had received reports from FSB agents while they were stationed in Ukraine, and that Yakymenko held several briefings with the agents……”
There is nothing shocking about this – and there is no reason to doubt that a modern state intelligence agency will position theirselves to influence the outcome in the country next door which has been in their pocket for decades. I’m not denying that the US was involved either. What is shocking is how you ignore the obvious, and apparently support Russia’s right to run the affairs of Ukraine. Indeed, you have yet to mention the illegal and immoral annexation of the Crimea Peninsula. This is just further evidence of your “colored” perception of US involvement which you deem wrong while ignoring the Russian interference (invasion) which you apparently deem right.
There was no US sponsored coup Doc. There were dissatisfied Ukrainians rightfully protesting against a Russian puppet. However, there was also intent by Russia to do everything possible to hold on to the cold war country of Ukraine. Jesus, where do you think Yanukovych fled to after his government was brought down.
Thanks Doc.
First it was Mr. Mohyeldin, now it is the CNN reporter Ms. Maygan (sp?). And, there has been numerous instances in the past – there is a pattern.
Why, one wonders, there is a perception that US media is biased!
MSM reporting on the I/P conflict will never be the same after this. It’s a major breakthrough for those who want to tell the whole truth. Mohyeldin and Greenwald are the guys who did it.
I think that Mr. Mohyeldin will continue to do fair and unbiased reporting in Gaza and Mr Greenwald will attack where ever he sees injustice.
Certainly the comments on this thread indicate that more people are waking up to the Apartheid of the State of Israel but that battle is not won until justice is served. It will take more efforts from people like you larry, who are trying to disseminate the truth.
Thanks.
“……..It will take more efforts from people like you larry, who are trying to disseminate the truth……”
Larry disseminates propaganda – some of which is true. Most of it is just his opinion. It’s more like you agree with him politically, therefore it must be true………
Get over yourself. GG did not “break” the reporter story. Stop giving him credit he doesn’t deserve. It will make his already huge ego even bigger. He’s not a key player like you think he is. Stop overblowing his importance.
Stop giving Greenwald so much credit. It was out there before he ever “reported” on it. Next you’ll be telling us he’s responsible for ending Israeli apartheid. You people tailing Greenwald are really sad. Celebritizing journalism used to be the purview of the reactionaries, now the liberal wing has jumped on board.
Yeah tarzie. You’ve accomplished so much for the world, blogging bullshit from Park Slope.
I imagine this victory, so greatly facilitate by Glenn, must eat at your hate-shriveled soul.
Oh [email protected], it’s so true. Why you, blogging bullshit from your Park Slope bunker, have effected so much more change than that imperialist running dog, Greenwald.
pfffft
LOL. Guess I hit a nerve. The NeoNazi has spoken. And now is apparently spitting. You funny, Neo.
A word to the wise, [email protected] In your previous incarnations here, you have spammed the board so egregiously that you were put in pre-mod for reasons of meritless volume. So, you might want to turn the volume down some, if you want to stay.
And before you start whining about censorship, Glenn has applied this same standard to wingnuts, and also to people who support him. Undue volume, as determined by Glenn, will get a poster canned.
A lecture on “volume?” You cannot be for real. But Greenwald is comfy with having NeoNazis as enforcers, right?
I’m telling ya, [email protected], you are hitting the limit on this inane hate-spewing. That’s not what this comments section is for, and Glenn isn’t going to let you hijack it with boatloads of bullshit.
Stick a “star” in your imperialist obsessed cobbler, johnny one-note.
Is there a more important issue today than imperialism? I mean, besides you making ridiculous attempts to convince people you’re an anti-imperialist? You’re shortsighted if you believe imperialism isn’t the problem here with Israel or anything else done by empire. But good work, Limbaugh.
@ PeachCobbler:
Stop putting words in peoples mouth and attempting to assign them political affiliations that they do not have.
The only person that is “tailing” anyone here is you. That could be perceived as a form of online stalking.
The bulk of your comments appear to be focused on discrediting Mr. Greenwald on his own comment board which is, by definition, spam.
America has problem’s, america has big problems, Billions of people living a lie, brainwashed by the entertainment industry, war and death is suddenly entertaining, until its war and death knocking on your doorstep, how did we end up in that situation, oh wait lets see, a guy financed by both the CIA and the NSA funded your presidents campaign fund with 7 Million in pocket change and then with nothing but greed in mind decided he would re-write international law on his own with no oversight. He decided he would become incredibly influential and help them spy on millions of people not just in the US but around the entire-world and then your got your new commander in chief sitting there talking about preventative incarceration, they where not guilty of a crime, but they might be so we’ll incarcerate them preventatively at the same time he finances and funds a regime of armed rebels with his own weapons, then the far right says hey these guys are all fundamentally nuts and a threat to the civilized world, but hey did you in your three piece techno-brain pause for a moment to see the pictures of them howling over there dead relatives and there dead because of america’s actions. Oh wait no that cant be true, america doesn’t invade places all around the world opening up a can of democracy, america has never invaded Libya, Kuwait, Iraq, Afghanistan or attempted to over-throw the assade regime, those are all lies. The spies are not trying to secure weapons contracts for there buddies in the weapons industry because those buddies all get rich. Those four star officials all worked damn hard for there Job, just look at the Prince of wales in the UK he’s commander of the Land, Air & Sea forces just because his Mommy says so, he never went into a war-zone or had to Kill anybody, although he let his Kids get in on the action because shooting those wayward arabs sure is fun isnt it! Until you reflect that next thing you’ll all be walking around wearing that new Google device that wants to read your Brain… It’s the next best thing in technology, they can just stifle dissent by reading your brainwaves and incarcerate you preventatively.. Shame it would seem the guys inventing such evil technology, dont appear to be the guys that want to walk around wearing it!
Why hasn’t Glenn written about CNN’s German correspondent Diana Magnay who tweeted calling Jews ‘scum’ ?
Apologies if this has been posted before, but it’s a must read!
This is the link to the transcript of Snowden’s Guardian interview. He’s so on target! Oh, I think the video itself is also on this page or easily reached at TG.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/18/-sp-edward-snowden-nsa-whistleblower-interview-transcript
Snowden is an overdramatizer. He’s also an imperialist. Was it his remark about believing the U.S. should be world policeman that made you warm and fuzzy all over? This is the guy you idolize? You should be embarrassed, not “proud.”
says one of the Death State propaganda specialists…
http://ronaldthomaswest.com/2014/04/18/military-sock-puppets-nsa-trolls-cia-shills/
So Snowden being an imperialist doesn’t bother you? “The U.S. support of Israel is the least worst scenario?” You want to stand by your hero on that? Knock yourself out colluding with out of touch reactionaries. Next you’ll be telling us that having NeoNazis run journalism websites is something that should be given serious consideration.
Meanwhile, PeachCobbler wonders what that feeling is when he remembers the first time he found out WHY his mother pinched his umbilical cord and then killed herself in recognition of what she had given birth to.
great work Glenn – its enlightening to see real journalism working against crony journalism!
nut&yahoo is yelling at brian roberts of Comcast, at this moment. Just like he yelled at aipac after the Syrian failure. Whole lot of yelling going on !
Linky?
I attempted earlier to leave a comment on the article concerning the reporter who was apparently censored by NBC because of his reporting of the deaths of four innocent children in Gaza. I did not see the comment posted. I just wanted to try again and post this to see what the reason was. I had simply made the comment that I feel the the Israeli Government discourages critics from questioning Israel’s actions by attacking any criticism by accusing the critics of Antisemitism. Even Oliver Stone quickly backed down on a simple observation. And it saddens me that Israel of all nations would imprison innocents in ghettos.
http://wintersbutterfly.com/2013/08/19/pride/
Just FYI – a lot of comments get sucked into some sort of filter that causes delays in posting. Happens to me and many here w/ regularity. It isn’t a content thing, unless you post more than one link. The spam filter often thinks those are always spam. [shrug]
It’s an interesting choice of filter (of all the things to filter).
It’s a WordPress thing. Where I blogged a few years ago we used WordPress, and comments constantly were caught in the spam filter.
$250 million buys such a great WordPress blog!!
I’ve had success hitting “reload” or F5. Sometimes the page doesn’t refresh after I post.
Thx. The original post never posted as of about seven hours or so without the URL. This one posted about twenty minutes after I posted it. The link above is just a link on my WordPress Blog of a picture I saved from the internet of Greenwald and Miranda some months back.. I have the utmost respect for the people who are trying so hard to make this issue public. The United States was created based on separation of powers among three branches. I fear today that the intelligence community, invoked originally under Truman, has become a cloaked fourth branch without oversight from any of the other branches. I hope there is a way to go back.
The Reply above posted immediately.
big ups to Glenn for smelling the rat and pouncing on it.
I like how the myth of objective journalism is slyly implicated in all this.
In other words, the negative reaction forced us to reconsider the view we intended to present.
There is no such thing as a “view from nowhere”.
Definitely an excellent article regarding the topic. And I agree, there is no such thing. My suspicions were that Mohyeldin’s removal along with Diana Magnay’s removal was actually an order issued from from United States’ security agencies or even the executive branch in an effort to impose ‘damage control’ on foreign policies and agreements. Nice to see that Mohyeldin will be going back to report on this conflict. Now what about Diana Magnay? She should be allowed back to report candidly.
Bill Clinton indicates “public relations” is the chief concern of America’s foreign policy elite.
https://twitter.com/ZaidJilani/status/489862182067113984
Short to medium term, the most pressing of circumstance.
AND IT’S TERRIBLE!
Terrible, that the logic of rape is still a hard sale, after all these years.
Because of its oil reserves, controlling the Middle East is extremely important. The United States therefore requires a strong vested interest in order to justify its high degree of involvement in the region. That interest is Israel. Policies such as the strong support for the despotic regime in Saudi Arabia, or the huge amounts of money sent to Egypt are necessary to exert control over the region but would be very unpopular if they could not be justified as necessary for the security of Israel. Even the attempts to constrain Iran’s aspirations to become a regional nuclear power would be much harder to sell if they could not be painted as an existential threat to Israel.
The strategic importance of the Middle East will eventually fade and with it, the US support for Israel. When that happens, Israel will be left somewhat exposed and isolated. Luckily they are not relying on their bilateral relationship with the US, but are forging strong ties with other countries in the Middle East in order to enhance their long term security. The cornerstone of this effort is of course their tremendous generosity towards the Palestinians, which is the litmus test by which other countries evaluate them.
I don’t believe the ME strategic importance will fade for quite some time. From the region there is easy access to both Russia and China. If two friendly nations in the ME are allies of the West, Israel and Saudi Arabia, it is in the interests of the West to support the expansionist goals of both nations. Oil, I think is of less importance by now than that.
https://twitter.com/TheMattWilstein/status/490283340075765761
A friend of mine pointed something out to me today…
Extremist fundamentalist Christians, Zionists and Muslims all have something in common – apart from the obvious fact that they are all idiots…
They welcome the ‘end-time.’ Yes. they do, all of them!
They should all wise the fuck up. The beauty of religion is in the kindness, compassion and forgiveness innate to spirituality, and the promotion of virtue for virtue’s sake. There is no beauty or virtue in ‘battling evil with evil,’ and the stupidity of evil-battling is evident in the fact that each of the moronic groups named above are sure ‘god’ is ultimately on their side against the wickedness of the others, and this is simply and obviously neurotic.
If we wish peace on Earth, we must discourage all belief in an end-time, and maybe even ridicule the belief that what is divine is merely a tribal and prejudiced bully.
The core belief of the day, “perpetual economic growth on a finite planet”, is also a brand of Eschaton, in that it will actually do the job of doing the job.
Dear Cindy,
I’m not surprised that your friend “pointed something out” to you today.
You don’t seem intelligent enough to have an original thought of your own.
Christians and Muslims have NOTHING in common.
Islam is a political system of oppression and death.
Christianity is a personal system of freedom and life.
Choose carefully, more than your life is at stake.
As an American Muslim veteran who is married to a christian I think we both have quite a bit in common. I haven’t seen anything in my religion about oppression or death but we do have some crazies.
Ad hominem attacks against Cindy or even against the people of Palestine do not justify their slaughter.
Oh bullshit. Ever heard of America’s Christian Reconstructionists, aka Dominionists? The only reason they don’t stone people and deny them the right to practice the faith of their choice, is because they can’t.
That’s from wiki, and I assure you, these people heavily influenced America’s religious right.
And I could right ad infinitum about the Roman Catholicism into which I was born. Especially in Ireland and Franco’s Spain. Theocratic evil running rampant.
You, sir or madame, have a beam in thine own eye.
ALL religions have access to the same Truth esoterically, while they differ in their outer forms.
“The different religions are like so many languages speaking of that unique Truth as it manifests itself in different worlds according to its inner archetypal possibilities, but the syntax of these languages is not the same.”
—— “Knowledge and the Sacred” by Seyyed Hossein Nasr
>”Christians and Muslims have NOTHING in common.”
We all have something different in common.
@ Cindy:
In my view, all organized religions are merely attempts to control control and manipulate humans by restricting them from direct access to the source of spirituality within each human. The notion that a supreme being (whatever that might be called) is in someway concerned with the political and economic affairs of humans on planet Earth is absurd; and when that being requires offerings (animal or human) in the form of rituals like war it violates the moral code of the universe. In short, if any given god requires – spiritual repression, economic compensation, suffering and /or death – to appease or fulfill it’s identity; I want no part of that god.
With regard to the topic at hand, I feel that it is necessary to clearly differentiate between Judaism as a spiritual control mechanism, and Zionism as purely political and economic control mechanisms. There might be more Christian Zionists than Jewish ones. The Vatican and the The Inner City of London are equally culpable in laundering the economic control mechanisms of Zionism. Washington DC exerts the military control mechanisms and the State of Israel is the visible extension in the Middle East as a way to advance that might. The UN was designed as a Zionist front operation. The people belonging to all of the religions are nothing more than expendable pawns in the ideology of Zionists who desire full control of all real assets (land, water, food, people) on planet Earth. There in lies the danger of a few elites controlling the many – the only possible result is complete and absolute control of the masses for the benefit of the few. One World Dictatorship so to speak.
That said….I concur with your analysis of end-time beliefs and believe that we should indeed….”wise the fuck-up.”
“end times” is metaphor misread. All living beings experience “end times” and what that entails. The various end times stories are imaginative conjecture and meaning-making for those frightened by the end of their existence.
Any system, be it religious or otherwise (including democracy), will become about controlling people if those who are in the position of influencing and steering it act through the lower self/consciousness whose qualities include love of power, control, selfishness, arrogance, anger, revenge, etc.
I hear a bunch of stupid anti-semites speaking without any common sense. Hamas started this conflict. Israel needs to wipe them and their constituents off the map.
constituents includes innocent men, women and children?
If some Zionism-addled zealot doesn’t call me an antisemite at least once a day, I’m doing something wrong.
The word anti-semite have been overused and now exhausted. It has lost its clout and means nothing now.
How about just Neonazi synpathizer then.
Only someone whose brain was as saturated with unreasoning hatred as yours is, tarzie, would make such a manifestly absurd accusation.
Only someone whose brain was as saturated with hatred as yours is, [email protected], could post such a manifestly inane accusation.
Look, you said you were comfortable with Neonazis funding journalism outfits. Are you going to tell a bald-faced lie and say you never said it? It’s screen grabbed all over Twitter. Just own it. You’re a reactionary disguising your views with fake liberal imperialism.
For the second time I don’t know who [email protected] is, there are dozens of people on twitter who understand that your boy GG is a libertarian imperialist masquerading as some kind of radical. He’s not fooling anybody. His past and current writing speaks for itself. You can refute that, but his comments, his writing, and his political positions speak for themselves. He’s an imperialist.
You take care now, NeoNazi.
Oh [email protected], you allow yourself to appear stupid with all this hatred you have.
I said I didn’t care what the political views of this site’s funders were, as long as he left the journalists totally free to publish as they please. In citing that this included even a Nazi funder, I was making the point that even such vile views were acceptable in a funder, as long as he kept his hands off.
In reaching for such an odious example of viewpoint, it’s obvious to all but those who don’t want to see, that I was reaching for the most loathsome beliefs I could imagine — not beliefs I hold myself, you situational twit.
Working hard to renounce your NeoNazi views! You go! We’re all convinced, Neo!
@ PeachCobbler:
How about you just fuck-off now?
[email protected], no hyperbole: You’ve been driven insane by irrational obsession and hate. Dude, get some help.
Palestinians are Semites as well.
@Joe
Quaint. Someone who thinks the tired, lazy, exhausted old charge that any criticism of Israeli policies constitutes “antisemitism.” Wow. We’ve NEVER heard that before, and so eloquently argued, and in such depth, too.
I have news for you pal. Israeli policies speak for themselves, and the game of pretending that what it is doing doesn’t constitute war crimes is officially over. After the butchery of the last week, good luck finding rational, ethical, objective people to cheer on your crimes. If you don’t understand that Israel has officially blown any good will it once had you don’t understand the power of the images and stories coming out of Gaza.
Own what you’re doing and accept the fact that people of goodwill have finally had enough. Israel just committed geopolitical suicide.
Another liberal who believes history began when they became politically conscious. People said that shit after Cast Lead too. “It’s over dude.” “The jig is up.” You don’t understand imperialism very well do you?
It’s fine, though. Arrogant liberals who give your libertarian savior Glenn Greenwald credit for peace in the Middle East like you and your crowd end up looking like fools. Liberal imperialists are as bad as the reactionaries. You all are the Limbaughs of the faux left.
Hey Cobbler:
It’s time for Troll restructuring. Try asking for assistance from your troll master. Read another manual for new script ideas. There are places for you in oblivion.
The US is a client state of Israel. What else do you expect? It’s shows the power of intense, relentless propaganda,lobbying,big money in politics intimidation and dual loyalties on the part of many Americans. Yes I said it. They can fuck off.
All you have to do to appreciate just how pervasive the Israeli bias is in the US is to mutter some pro-Palestinian sentiment like “can you blame them since they have been occupied and imprisoned ever since the Israeli’s stole their homeland in 1947.” I remember my first experience with being accused of anti-semitism when I expressed this view in my high school current affairs class in 1967.
Most of the bias is in media and entertainment. We can counter that with efforts in social media like this reversal by NBC and the defeat of aipac re Syria. With friends family and other contacts I am very open (as I am discussing politics with a right winger): I fully support the Palestinians and the two state solution and totally oppose any efforts to undermine the latter. anti-semitic meet anti-gentile. Hey if you can handle wingnuts you can handle zionists.
Thank you Glen for this multi-dimensional, behind the scenes article; it feels like i can see better like a new pair of glasses, through your journalistic lens!
Thank you for this article, we are starving to know the truth; which helps us to act!
Just see this video and you’ll understand everything : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1N1zhUm84w
Nice piece. Thank you for the information and for helping put the pressure on NBC. The pro-Israel propaganda with its concomitant dehumanization of the people in Gaza is beyond getting old.
Agreed; the propaganda is getting downright disgusting.
It’s just so very cool that Glenn Greenwald is a “name,” and can make something like this an issue.
Go Glenn!
He wasn’t the first to report this, Neonazi.
Was it GUNBOAT or AIRSTRIKE? Or were there two sets of four children killed? One by this man’s report by GUNBOAT and one set by this man’s report by AIRSTRIKE?
Let’s try gun boat and air strike against you, maybe we’ll see tow of you.
A
The link in the first couple lines to the NBC article mentions naval shelling. I think the airstrike refers to shelling from the gunboat. I was confused by the wording too, with airstrike typically meaning from planes.
AlQuran Surah 17. Al-Isra’ (4-8)
4. And We decreed for the Children of Israel in the Scripture:”Indeed you would do mischief in the land twice and you will become tyrants and extremely arrogant!”
5. So, when the promise came for the first of the two, We sent against you servants of Ours given to terrible warfare. They entered the very innermost parts of your homes. And it was a promise (completely) fulfilled.
6. Then We gave you a return of victory over them. And We helped you with wealth and children and made you more numerous in manpower.
7. (And We said): “If you do good, you do good for your own selves, and if you do evil (you do it) against yourselves.” Then, when the second promise came to pass, (We permitted your enemies) to disgrace your faces and to enter the Masjid as they had entered it before, and to destroy with utter destruction all that fell in their hands.
8. It may be that your Lord may show mercy unto you, but if you return (to sins). We shall return (to Our punishment). And We have made Hell a prison for the disbelievers.
It was mentioned in the Tawrah that the Jews would spread Mischief twice..
Allah’s promise is certain.. The jews were punished before for their mischief and then Allah will let them prosper as what we all see.. But they become arrogant and evil.. The second time Allah will let their enemy win.. And the jews will fall into utter destruction.. Allah promise is certain!
I have just as much patience with that nonsense as I do with Orthodox Jews who think the Hebrew bible constitutes a land deed “giving” them Palestine.
can u tell me how many Israeli citizens were killed ? actually none or maybe just one , so please restudy the situation there ain’t any Israeli causalities or maybe only one or two
on the other hand 280 civilians in gaza were killed , do u want them to just watch around waiting the UN to side with the Israeilis , they have to resist like all occupied nations . please fight fare
and understand who exactly is targeting the civilians , Netenyaho himself told Hillary Klenton they want to target as many civilans as possible ! but ur media doesn’t show that to u
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=1468443226735604&set=vb.100007098216003&type=2&theater
I have one question about that video – why when he says those incriminating sentences does the camera turn away? If it had stayed on him, as is usual in press conference, we would be able to read his lips along with the audio. But it doesn’t. That make the sound track suspicious to me, that it’s been tampered with.
Well lets Check Fire all of the IDF Anti Missile Defences for 3 months.
Then do a body count comparison
Compare Ben Gurion’s statements to Golda Meir’s. It only took a few years to start believing their alternate version of history.
http://www.monabaker.com/quotes.htm
To anyone still reading this comment thread, check out the good news Update.
That was clearly Glenn’s doing. But I bet some like Nate won’t admit to it because, you know, it would be “jumping to conclusions.”
You beat me to it, Jose. I think Glenn’s reporting had no small influence on NBC’s decision to send Mohyeldin back to Gaza. And, of course, the fact that the reporter himself is an exceptional journalist, and an asset to NBC which needs to renew its credibility, if that’s possible.
It very well might have been a factor. Or maybe….NBC really did worry about his safety and then reassessed.
One thing is known, Glenn’s speculation that he was pulled due to his reporting DID NOT end up being corroborated. If it was, why would Mohyeldin return to Gaza and praise NBC!?
As I said earlier, all Glenn had to do is report the story and seek an explanation, like journalists are supposed to do. But he couldn’t help it; Glenn added insinuation that ended up never being supported by fact. Now that information is flowing , that statement and the title of this TI article look plain wrong.
So the security concerns just went away? Plus they are such that no one can say anything about them.
I disagree. It was corroborated to the extent that anything can be corroborated without an actual admission of guilt.
Because people value their jobs. Why do you think 2 reporters have deleted tweets from their personal accounts in the last day or so?
If you’re employed, you should understand all this.
LOL
Yes, why would someone who gets exactly what he wanted after a major public storm of protest on his behalf – pursuant to which he will continue in a very lucrative and high-profile job pursuant to his own terms – possibly praise this capitulation?
CNN’s media reporter Brian Stelter tweeted: ““My read of NBC’s statement: an about-face that comes close to saying ‘we made a mistake.’”
Feel free to quote what I wrote that was factually inaccurate, along with the “flowing information” that proves that. I’m honestly starting to feel a bit sorry for you.
The article I wrote provoked huge amounts of protest and commentary in numerous places. If anything I wrote was inaccurate, NBC would have said so – both to me before publication and after. They didn’t: because everything I wrote was 100% true, because I know exactly what happened, and – because I spoke with and know so many people inside NBC from all the time this year I spent working with them – they know I know everything that happened.
Glenn:
This is one of those situations where no matter what happened, you’d convince yourself that you were 100% accurate. If NBC said they didn’t like this reporters tone and pulled him because of it, Glenn is right! If nothing happened, Glenn is right! If NBC wasn’t being dishonest and indeed feared about his safety, well Glenn says that explanation is absurd, so again Glenn is right! If he returns to Gaza as is the actual case – somehow Glenn is still right!
I never took umbrage with reporting on his removal from Gaza but only with your speculation.
Your title implies he was pulled because he reported on the deaths of the boys in Gaza. ZERO PROOF
Your insinuation that he was pulled because of his powerful first hand reporting. ZERO PROOF
But apparently this reporter cares so much about his job and salary that he would look past your speculative conclusion. Glenn is right again!
Your quote about NBC’s statement being as close to a “we made a mistake,” is that a mistake about their removal of him due to security issues or a mistake based on your speculation that didn’t pan out. It’s unknown but let’s chalk this up to Glenn being right again!
Everything you wrote was 100% true or NBC would have said otherwise!? You are truly deluded.
I have to agree with Glenn. The job of a reporter is to present a human face to the news, regardless of the nationality of religion of the subject, to dig deep into the issues and supply the public with real news, so they can make informed decisions for themselves. Reporters are note suppose to be stenographers for the ruling class or the winning side. We need real discussion about the underlying issues surrounding this conflict, that doesn’t demonize either side. We desperately need real reporting about programs and policies in United States. What we get is some frankenstein mixture of celeb coverage, with the latest trumped up scandal. I often joke that they could have video of Keith Alexander and James Clapper eating a barbecued baby on the White House lawn…and the press wouldn’t cover the story. Not so far from the truth.
Glenn, your embedded link to Matt Wilstein’s Twitter page is corrupted.
https://twitter.com/TheMattWilstein/status/490283340075765761
https://twitter.com/TheMattWilstein
Hi Nate:
I asked you previously to quote the statements of mine that are factually inaccurate or even unsupported. You must have forgotten to do that.
You’ve repeatedly written things like this: “Now that information is flowing , that statement and the title of this TI article look plain wrong.”
But you’ve neglected to provide any specific examples – with quotes, not with your own paraphrases of what I supposedly “implied” (the title makes two claims: (1) NBC removed Mohyeldin from Gaza and (2) it did so after he reported on the Israeli attack on the 4 Palestinian boys: both claims are indisputably true).
If you’re going to claim that I made factually inaccurate or unsupported claims, it’d be helpful if you actually identified what those are by quoting them. Otherwise, the accusations aren’t very worthwhile.
One more thing, Nate:
“The Intercept’s account is light on speculation about why Mohyeldin was replaced”…
When answering my question above, explaining what is dancing in your head doesn’t count; you have to identify something I actually wrote. Thanks.
Look Glenn, I can find articles to back my argument as well!
http://theweek.com/speedreads/index/265018/speedreads-nbc-news-reverses-course-sending-ayman-mohyeldin-back-to-report-from-gaza
Glenn:
I have quoted your speculatory portions so many times in this comment section that you should have no problem finding them. I had to laugh in disbelief at your explanation for the title being factually correct. How stupid you must think your readers are. It indicates that Ayman’s removal had something to do with this reporting on the four children. To claim otherwise is just dishonest. Just look at the Comments section here and on Twitter! It became obvious to them that NBC was silencing this reporter, based on your report!
Nate, I am resigned, at this point, to the fact that this probably won’t make a dent, as you seem heavily invested in your role of “The person who’s going to talk some sense into Glenn Greenwald!”. To be fair and somewhat self-aware, I am probably, in turn, assuming the same role with you (“Surely *this will make sense to Nate”…) – circle of karma, I guess. That said, I don’t understand what you’re on about. The title of this article is factual – nowhere does it say ‘because’ or ‘as a result of’. The linking word between the two thoughts in it is ‘after’. The only place I see a causal correlation directly referred to is ‘or perhaps because of it’. “Perhaps” is hardly an iron-fisted type word, and acknowledges itself, to my mind, as indicating only a possibility, not a fact.
As to whether or not this article assumed there could be a link between these events – yes, it did that. But are you seriously telling me we could have news with no causal events indicated, at all? Just “a random series of events happened all over the world today, which we will not try to tie together any more than we assume there’s a link between things falling to the ground when you drop them. That’s not for us to assume.” Of course, it is absolutely your right to disagree with these conclusions. If you think Greenwald’s completely wrong on this one, fine – what I have a problem with is the idea that the idea of linking two events with an underlying assumption that one may have caused the other is some sort of ‘unobjective’ anomaly specific to this outlet. For one thing, I work with children who can’t do this, and I assure you that human speech containing no causal inferences is not ‘objective’, it is a kind of word salad that has to be remedied. Second, go to the Washington Post, the NYTimes, any major paper, and see how many of their headlines / stories are simply long lists of facts where causal relationships are never invoked – the idea is absurd.
What you mean is, I don’t LIKE the conclusions he came to. That’s fine, you have every right not to like them. But the assumptions you’re making about human language just make no sense to me, unless you want a world full of people who just wander around rattling off empirical facts and news outlets who in no way try to group them into specific stories or happenings (“In the news today – my cat threw up a bug; a man was shot in the Ukraine; the walls around me are green; I like cake – ooo, wait, opinion statement, sorry – someone in Detroit just ordered a purse off of eBay; the temperature is 84 degrees; Putin made a statement; my neighbors went to the beach…”)
ROFL!
Nate, you go right on trapped in your stubborn delusions. As Democracy Now’s reporter from Gaza said, the “security” excuse was false and lacking credibility on it’s face.
But whatever. Glenn made it an issue, and goddam if doing so didn’t have great results!
Well, if Democracy Now said it, it must be true!
You’re right, Glenn does deserve credit for turning this into an attention-grabbing issue. But he could have done so without resorting to speculation of NBC silencing its reporter. Something that doesn’t appear to be correct.
Other websites reported this he right way. They said: “Why did NBC pull Mohyeldin out of Gaza!?” The Baltimore Sun for example didn’t resort to conjecture. But hey, the ends justify the means right!?
Excuse me, but, is that a, ah “speculation?”
Kitt…thats just mind-numbing. Glenn’s assertion that NBC pulled the guy for his reporting content is the speculation. My saying that the speculation is unsupported by facts is not itself speculation. It is a statement of fact. Check the definition of “speculate” and maybe the light bulb will go on.
Or to simplify this, if you say cows fly and I say you have no evidence that cows fly, who is speculating – the claimant or the skeptic?
Poor, silly Nate writes:
You are willfully ignoring what Glenn said, to wit:
See that, Nate? Glenn was contacted by people within NBC. He’s worked with them. His reporting is based in great part on what they told him, and NBC knows they told him.
Yes, that is excellent reporting. Glenn Greenwald by contrast confined himself to a mere factual statement:
Reporting facts is the antithesis of proper journalism. Why provide an answer when you can simply ask a question? How are the authorities supposed to give proper spin to a story when it consists of nothing but facts? The authorities require a measure of freedom to create a convincing narrative and reporting facts hems them in and constrains their creativity.
@Nate: Maybe you didn’t get what Glenn said above. Basically, he has off-the-record information on exactly what happened. He absolutely knows you’re wrong, and given all the known facts, that’s an assumption the rest of us can reasonably make as well.
Acknowledging he has the inside scoop from his NBC contacts, why isn’t he giving us an update (off the record of course) of what happened with NBC’s decision to pull the reporter? Surely more information could be gleaned in the last 24 hours if he is so connected. Yet we are still as much in the dark about their decision as we were yesterday.
If Glenn is 100% correct as he so boldly states, why isn’t he citing his sources saying that this reporter was initially pulled due to his work in Gaza and that only backlash against NBC resulted in his being sent back?
Jose, that doesn’t make much sense because Glenn mentioned in the article the reaction of NBC officials and that a top Executive ordered the removal. This information came from his sources right? So ask yourself, why would Glenn withhold subsequent information from his sources if it proved his speculation was correct? Off-the-record is equivalent to nothing, from a readers perspective.
And if I learned one thing from Michael Hastings (RIP), there is no such thing as off-the-record. Do you really think if Glenn had the smoking gun proving his speculation, that he would withhold it!? Why would he do that?
Silly goose Nate writes:
My guess? Why rub NBC’s nose in it now that the wrong has been righted?
I any event, you were wrong to claim Glenn published mere speculation. He has people inside NBC who acted as anonymous sources for this story– and NBC knows he has.
Nate continues to tie himself up in non sequiturs:
And if I learned one thing from Michael Hastings (RIP), there is no such thing as off-the-record. Do you really think if Glenn had the smoking gun proving his speculation, that he would withhold it!? Why would he do that?
Off the record: Deep Throat.
(And Michael Hastings has naught the fuck to do with any of this.)
Speaking of non-sequiturs…
Ignoring that what you said does not even relate to my complaint about speculation, the subtext is that you don’t need actual tangible evidence because Glenn is so trustworthy that his hypothetical off-the-record conclusions will suffice. Do you afford any other reporters such demigod status?
Mona:
Seriously…You don’t know the difference between an off the record comment and an anonymous source!
Get real Mona!
That’s not what you wrote. You wrote, doesn’t appear to be correct.” That’s sure as hell not a “statement of fact,” that’s speculation, no matter how many dictionaries you have floating around your attic.
Nate spittles forth:
They are functionally one and the same. And again: Deep Throat.
Mona, an anonymous source and on/off the record comments are NOT the same. At least have the courtesy to read this and figure out what you are talking about
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_(journalism)
Nate, you see things so clearly! NBC for some reason determined that being in Gaza was too dangerous for Mohyeldin so they not only pulled him but had someone else report on the story that he had witnessed first hand. However, once they rationally analyzed the situation, they realized they could risk sending him back. Many people do not appreciate the mathematical intricacies of high level risk analysis nor understand that small changes in the input variables can lead to diametrically different results. So of course unless Mohyeldin is on his best behavior, the situation might very abruptly become too risky again.
Not sure where to jump in here as everyone is enjoying standing their ground. Just wanted to add that I watched Chris Hayes tonight to see how he might have reacted to the “disappearance” of Ayman. He took on a rep from Israel and was so combative that I expected he’d be the next to go if Glenn’s premise was right. To my knowledge he is still there.
My personal thought as I observed the reporting of the death of the children and Ayman’s reaction was that he might have suffered emotionally and needed to step aside to gather his senses after such an ordeal. Journalists are not usually so closely involved in a story. It had to take its toll. That would explain the sudden subbing of Richard Engel for a brief period while he recovered.
Excellent news!
American’s deserve the right to uncensored, unbiased, news reporting….which at least resembles the truth.
My congratulations to Mr. Mohyeldin.
My thanks to Mr. Greenwald and The Intercept for having the guts to present the issue with incredible objectivity in light of the geographical setting. Don’t stop now….delicate topics such as this drive at the heart of the “beast.”
Controlling American’s picture of Israel has always been crucial for the war profiteers who established it.
“Mona” does a good job covering up her right wing sympathies. Did she support the Iraq invasion with Brother Greenwald? Oh, I believe she did!
Your petty little attacks sound kind of desperate. Off your meds again? Which one of the crap-flooders of the recent past are you?
tarzie: Actually, I truly did support the Iraq war early on. Glenn Greenwald, however, did not. I publicly argued in its favor until about ’05. He never did; he acquiesced to it for a brief time. In fact, it was largely because of his stating compelling reasons to oppose it that I myself came to reject it.
How the war profiteers behind Israel captured American democracy –
http://warprofiteerstory.blogspot.com
Mainstream news is now just party propaganda….on all sides. Send Moheyldin back and CNN should send Magna back. Why would reporting whats really happening get you pulled from the field. BS!
Amen! And I mean that in the most agnostic way possible. No way would I align myself with any religion in this day and age. What with all the ‘good’ that is done in the name of evil. I may have that backward – you get the point…
Meanwhile, Obama is, without evidence, pointing the finger at Putin for the downing of the Malaysia plane. No matter what the Israeli do, they’re fine in this country. They have become war criminals and not a bip from Obama, the US press or the US congress. The asymmetry of this aggression of Gaza makes the hair on my back stand up in rage…how dare they kill children and then remind us that they are fighting for their lives…HUH? A superarmed nuclear power with full backing of the most powerfully armed nation in history, with more weapons themselves than most states is concerned about a few misaligned rockets from Hamas? Hamas? the most powerful terrorist organization in the planet? Is it??? It reminds me of the Soviets and their alleged superiority to the US in submarines, nuclear weapons, missiles, etc. Just pure lies.
Where is all this hypocrisy coming from?
At The Wall Street Journal’s MarketWatch site, a headline declares, “Malaysia plane downed by top Russian export”. Nothing in the article supports the headline, yet its claim is being passed as fact.
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/malaysia-plane-downed-by-russias-top-export-2014-07-18/print?guid=DD1901B8-0EA1-11E4-ADF3-00212803FAD6
Except the Buk surface-to-air missile system is made by Russia, hence the whole “Russia’s top export” thing.
Yes, I understand that, but there’s still no proof the Buk was used, and if used, that it was fired by the separatists. I understand that the Buk system is a particularly lethal and effective piece of anti-aircraft weaponry, more so than the SAM, but still that is not proof either.
There are unanswered questions, many of them, and there is far more motive for the Kiev regime to down a passenger plane and blame the eastern rebels, than there is evidence those rebels brought it down. I can think of two or three scenarios, one in which Kiev’s SBU, aided even by our own CIA, created the situation that resulted in the downing.
False flag events are common occurrences in times of political turmoil that alter the public’s perceptions and enable a undue allegiances from that public. To dismiss the possibility of such manipulation in this tragic case is to close one’s mind to the reality of the human capacity for evil.
The rush to judgment that Putin/eastern separatists are responsible is a clear indication that we are being propagandized, and I refuse to accede to propaganda. I prefer real evidence produced by real investigation.
“…….I can think of two or three scenarios, one in which Kiev’s SBU, aided even by our own CIA, created the situation that resulted in the downing……”
I think that’s absurd. It’s already becoming clear that the Kremlin delivered the high tech weapons to the rebels who made a mistake. The weapon systems require extensive training. It would not be surprising if a Russian soldier actually made the mistake (and it was a mistake, seer). The rebels are obstructing the investigation – hardly the actions of innocent separatists.
This will break your heart.
Two views of Gaza: https://twitter.com/PresumptuousBug/status/490248756072546304
@ PI:
A very powerful and exquisite statement that clearly portrays both the oppressed and the oppressors.
Excellent work as usual PI.
Thanks! I tip my hat to the Irish artist. And to the city of Dublin for demanding that Ireland sanction Israel.
Excellent juxtaposition.