They want to pile up as many civilian dead as they can. They use telegenically dead Palestinians for their cause. They want the more dead, the better.
The Jews gradually are having to depend more and more on themselves, and have recently found a new trick. They knew the good-natured German Michael in us, always ready to shed sentimental tears for the injustice done to them. One suddenly has the impression that the Berlin Jewish population consists only of little babies whose childish helplessness might move us, or else fragile old ladies. The Jews send out the pitiable. They may confuse some harmless souls for a while, but not us. We know exactly what the situation is.
Rather than lard up the point with numerous defensive caveats about what is and is not being said here (which, in any event, never impede willful media distorters in their tactics), I’ll simply note three brief points:
(1) To compare aspects of A and B is not to posit that A and B are identical (e.g., to observe that Bermuda and Bosnia are both countries beginning with the letter “B” is not to depict them as the same, just as observing that both the U.S. in 2003 and Germany in 1938 launched aggressive wars in direct violation of what were to become the Nuremberg Principles is not to equate the two countries).
(2) In general, the universality of war rhetoric is a vital fact, necessary to evaluate the merit of contemporary claims used to justify militarism (claims that a war amounts to mere “humanitarian intervention”, for instance, have been invoked over and over to justify even the most blatant aggression). Similarly, the notion that one is barred from ever citing certain historical examples in order to draw lessons for contemporary conflicts is as dangerous as it is anti-intellectual.
(3) Anglo-American law has long recognized that gross recklessness is a form of intent (“Fraudulent intent is shown if a representation is made with reckless indifference to its truth or falsity”). That’s why reckless behavior even if unaccompanied by a desire to kill people – e.g., randomly shooting a gun into a crowd of people – has long been viewed as sufficient to establish criminal intent.
One can say many things about a military operation that results in more than 75 percent of the dead being civilians, many of them children, aimed at a population trapped in a tiny area with no escape. The claim that there is no intent to kill civilians but rather an intent to protect them is most assuredly not among them. Even stalwart Israel supporter Thomas Friedman has previously acknowledged that Israeli assaults on Lebanon, and possibly in Gaza, are intended “to inflict substantial property damage and collateral casualties” because “the only long-term source of deterrence was to exact enough pain on the civilians” (which, to the extent it exists, is the classic definition of “terrorism”). The most generous claim one can make about what Israel is now doing in Gaza is that it is driven by complete recklessness toward the civilian population it is massacring, a form of intent under centuries of well-settled western law.
* * * * *
American journalism is frequently criticized with great justification, but there are a number of American journalists in Gaza, along with non-western ones, in order to tell the world about what is happening there. That reporting is incredibly brave and difficult, and those who are doing it merit the highest respect. Their work, along with the prevalence of social media and internet technology that allows Gazans themselves to document what is happening, has changed the way Israeli aggression is seen and understood this time around.
Credit to Jonathan Schwarz, now working with Matt Taibbi’s forthcoming First Look Media digital publication, for finding the 1941 article cited here.


The Axis of Chutzpah’s paroxysm in Gaza signals naught but another unraveling of the Axis’ ongoing decay and hopefully the promise of final burial this century, to be memorialized as a particularly putrid and ignominious evil that reeked upon the world….(with an annotation that the evil was greased by its infamous hypocritical moral pass from the west.)
The Axis of Chutzpah’s paroxysm in Gaza signals naught but another unraveling of the Axis’ ongoing decay and hopefully promise for final burial this century, to be memorialized as a particularly putrid and ignominious evil that reeked upon the world….(with an annotation that the evil was greased by its infamous hypocritical moral pass from the west.)
Copied comment from TI: “The NSA’s New Partner in Spying: Saudi Arabia’s Brutal State Police:
Pedinska
27 Jul 2014 at 6:02 pm
“Tribute to Gaza”
http://humanizepalestine.com/
“I will never forget watching the shooting of Salem Khaleel Shamaly. He was searching for missing family members in the rubble of Shuja’iyya when an Israeli sniper shot him. Multiple times. During a ceasefire.”
“One can say many things about a military operation that results in more than 75 percent of the dead being civilians, many of them children, aimed at a population trapped in a tiny area with no escape.” Of course, while obviously many civilians have been killed, we should nevertheless be extremely wary of these kinds of statistics, when all these numbers, as per the Washington Post, come from the Gazan Ministry of Health, which is controlled by Hamas (whatever you say about them, considering that their official charter calls explicitly for genocide against all Jews in Israel, and rejects the notion of any diplomatic solutions, just jihad, their credibility should be at the very least considered “questionable”). Further, based on some of the information published by Al Jazeera, 3/4ths of the causalities (as of 7/23) have been men of fighting age (ages 16-50). Coupled with the fact that the Gazan Ministry of Health counts anyone not wearing a uniform as a “civilian,” this makes somewhat hard to accept that Israel is simply massacring civilians indiscriminately. Even if one argues with these analyses or thinks (by not thinking) that the Hamas-run Gazan Ministry of Health is somehow credible, there’s still the indisputable fact that the way in which Hamas fights (by embedding itself and its weapons amongst the dense civilian populace, in homes, schools, hospitals, etc) along with its explicit encouragement of the population to ignore Israeli warnings and to act as human shields, inevitably results a large civilian death count. To observe their methods and not think that Hamas feels it gains something from the high civilian death count is naive. It’s also odd that they have no bomb shelters. If they have enough cement to build all those attack tunnels, surely they could have used some to protect their populace. Also, their rejection of even humanitarian truces, let alone ceasefires, doesn’t help matters, either.
Hidden behind your intellectual reasoning regarding the validity of figures provided by the Gazan Ministry of Health; is a clear appeal to somehow justify the actions of The State of Israel. Yet you provide no link to substantiate your claims.
The fact that the United Nations Human Rights council voted to investigate Israel’s violations of International Law, on 24 Jul 2014 – with 29 nation states voting for investigation into potential war crimes,
9 EU abstaining, and only 1 voting against the investigations (that being the US); does in no way qualify as significant in your evaluation of the situation. This is a telling point regarding your deficient process of objective analysis, which is actually a transparent rationalization, to justify the actions of the State of Israel.
Of course you are entitled to your opinion as is the rest of the world. Meanwhile, truly objective international volunteer physicians treating the civilians in Gaza disagree with you.
“Multinational doctors slam Israeli war on Gaza”
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/07/27/373038/doctors-rap-israel-atrocities-in-gaza/
Entire neighborhoods are being leveled, you turd of a human being. What kind of person would you have to be to try to spin what is clearly ethnic cleansing into something justifiable? It’s not just about the casualty counts. Israel is well aware it has to manage those figures. So its strategy is to tell people “get the fuck out because I’ll blow up your house.” Displacing people is also ethnic cleansing.
Jose, thanks for calling me a “turd” and elevating the level of the discussion. Suffice to say, by your definition of ethnic cleansing, the allies “ethnically cleansed” Germany in WWII (and the same logic would render dozens of other conflicts as examples of “ethnic cleansing” where, despite whatever high levels of death destruction did occur, ethnic cleansing did not). Interestingly enough, though, Gaza was in fact ACTUALLY ethnically cleansed back in 2005—of Jews, by the Israeli government.
This site has many good articles on the situation in Gaza. https://www.middleeasteye.net
I don’t mind the analogy in this case even if I have a family member who was maimed by a Nazi bullet. There are a plenty of times the comparison doesn’t fit, but generally stacks of corpses coupled with clear gross recklessness or murderous intent qualify.
The analogy also fits when actual Nazis are involved. That’s the part I can’t wrap my head around these days: the US support Israel against supposedly rabidly antisemitic jihadists and then support the current Kiev regime. Except the “jihadists” turn out to be children and civilians and the Kiev regime is heavily studded with non-proverbial Nazis.
I only wish this article hadn’t linked to Drum’s piece on Godwin’s law. It seems Drum’s issue with the PC dogma has more to do with Drum making elbow room for himself to draw analogies between consumer biotech critics and “extreme murderous evil.” It comes off as a contract hit for George Soros’s preferred industrial platforms. At times Drum has accused consumer activists of wielding telegenically dead and industrially maimed children to make their case. I won’t call Drum a Nazi for it though– I’ll just say he sounds too much like an Israeli.
There’s an error in this translation:
The German original reads: ‘Sie kennen doch den gutmutigen deutschen Michel in uns, der immer genie bereit ist, fur eine sentimentale Trane alles ihm angetane Unrecht zu vergessen:’
The English should be: ‘They know the good-natured German Michel in us, who is always happy to forget all the injustice inflicted upon him at the sight of a few sentimental tears’. The ‘injustice’ Goebbels is referring to is the injustice the good-natured German has supposedly suffered at the hands of the Jews.
https://archive.org/stream/GoebbelsOnTheJews.AufDeutschAuch/GoebbelsOnTheJews.AufDeutschAuch._djvu.txt (the full text of the German original is available here)
It appears like we might be looking at a major game changer here….I do hope so.
“US sends ‘very clear message to Israel': International lawyer”
“Zbigniew Brzezinski’ strong criticism of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu over the massacre of Palestinians in Gaza indicates a “fundamental change in policy” by the US government and is a “clear message” to Israel, an international lawyer says.”
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/07/26/372880/fundamental-change-in-us-israel-policy/
After Israel is done destroying Gaza completely (that’s evidently the objective), I think there needs to be a big world-wide fund-raiser to rebuild it. The ethnic cleansing that Israel is engaging in can’t be allowed to succeed.
Journalistic pieces exposing the U.S. culpability in the actions of the State of Israel are having a strong effect. This one is magnificent.
“US and Israel’s war of attrition in Gaza”
“Israel’s war of attrition against the Palestinian people is evident for what it has always been, thinly veiled code for racist genocide.”
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/07/26/372900/us-and-israels-war-of-attrition-in-gaza/
The houses of junior and senior Hamas members are being bombed — with and without children there — and the army says these are legitimate targets? Is there a Jewish home in Israel that does not shelter a commander who has helped plan or wage an offensive? Or a soldier who hasn’t shot at or will shoot at a Palestinian?
That’s fair point, but it appears that entire neighborhoods are being leveled intentionally.
I think it is grotesque to compare Netanyahu to Hitler. Root source of grotesque behavior is hatred, hatred’s outlet is annihilation, which Netanyahu has plenty of. But Netanyahu isn’t the only one with hatred. It exists in all of us only more hidden and unconscious and acted out in small ways. It is tragic for both the Israeli’s many of whom are responding to their history reconfigured in the current tragedy that is their government and the on-going tragedy for the Palestinian people. The Israelis’ can’t win, I am sad to say, because their position is entrenched in “splitting”, fear, panic, and hatred, but I am hopeful that more moderate and sane forces, forces that recognize human dignity and spiritual connection will eventually prevail. What I fear is that underneath the hatred for Israel actions what lies dormant is something more grotesque.
Not all of us are stealing land from the people living in it, imprisoning them, and then bombing in their prison from they can find no escape.
That reminds me quite literally of what was done to Jews in Germany, Poland, France, by Hitler & Co..
But when shall we hold Netanyahu to account? After he has killed all the Palestinians? Or after he has died and will not feel the judgment he deserves?
The fact that Friedman says something does not make it true. Take a look on Google maps and you will see many open areas in Gaza from which Hamas could fire rockets but they have made the decision to do so from highly populated areas. Maybe you can tell me why. Also what about the hundreds of tunnels into Israel. What do you think they’re for? Why was that concrete used for tunnels rather than schools, hospitals, etc. Why don’t you out this instead of automatically assuming Israel is wrong?
Better yet, why doesn’t Hamas ask Israel to suggest the locations where they should fire rockets from?
To the extent they actually exist, I would imagine they are used for contraband (because Palestinians are not allowed to import construction materials and such), but also for resistance purposes I’d imagine. Don’t Palestinians have a right to defend themselves in your view?
You’re assuming facts not in evidence. They do have schools, hospitals and so forth. It’s highly unlikely that construction materials that do get into Gaza have mostly been used to build tunnels.
Do you have anything else for us to consider?
Because “Israel” came into existance as a violation of the new UN Charter, and expanded by repeatedly committing the Crime Against Peace followed by innumerable Crimes Against Humanity and violations of the Geneva Conventions.
That’s why: “Israel” is wrong, criminally wrong.
Scenes from Shejaiya follwing the Israeli massacre there last Sunday and Monday.
https://twitter.com/kateb3000
Bad link, but William Booth has a number of pictures showing the results of Israel’s surgical and humane strikes.
https://twitter.com/BoothWilliam
I don’t know why the link won’t work but if you search Kate Benyon-Tinker or kateb3000 at twitter.com it will take you to her profile. She is a BBC correspondent in Gaza. The destruction in Shejaiya is mind boggling.
Worse than Dresden… it is more like Hiroshima. What is the need for nuclear weapons when destruction like this can be accomplished with the conventional variety?
One might speculate that some Israelis think if there are fewer Palestinians, there would be fewer complaints about the expropriation of Palestinian land in the west Bank
This is good, From Americas secretary of Buffoonery:
WP- “The proposed cease-fire would halt offensive activities but may not require Israel to withdraw its ground forces from Gaza. Israeli media reported that it could allow for the continued destruction of tunnels — an idea that would likely be opposed by Hamas.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/kerry-presents-gaza-cease-fire-proposal-to-israel-and-proxies-for-hamas/2014/07/25/e56775b2-13b4-11e4-9285-4243a40ddc97_story.html
Obama’s ceasefire proposal to the Palestinians has gone from “stop fighting so we can go back to starving you as per the status quo”
to “…oh, and did I mention, the Israelis can continue shooting!”
Do I smell another peace prize for the US president, or what!!!
How Politics and Lies Triggered an Unintended War in Gaza
From the Jewish Daily Forward
More here:
http://forward.com/articles/201764/how-politics-and-lies-triggered-an-unintended-war/?p=all#ixzz38Ul3mM73
I’m just marveling at how RT can find Palestinian voices, when Big American Outlets like MSNBC can’t!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxmh1Zsn0so
Very good interview, but how??? Do Chris Hayes, and Rachel Maddow not have skype????
You are one intelligent motherfukker!
The very basis upon which the UN and US recognized the creation of Israel (and that the US has underwritten and protected Israel’s existence ever since), is that the rest of British mandate Palestine would be Arab.
Both the UN and US also understood from the outset (and deplored) that Israel’s creation had occurred in conjunction with their ethnic cleansing of several hundreds of thousands of indigenous Arabs from several hundred villages in 1948, and that “a land without people for a people without land” was what the Jewish militias created (90%) via ethnic cleansing, NOT the situation before Israel’s creation, as Israeli officials and their American apologists would have it.
UN and US diplomacy ever since has been directed to redressing the horrendous injustice done to the Palestinians who were made to bear the burden of the Holocaust they had nothing to do with.
In sum, the UN and US properly adamantly reject Israel’s (Zionist) conceit that Jews alone are the rightful inhabitants of land occupied almost exclusively by Arabs for 1900 years prior to 1948.
As Israel’s second murderous blitzkrieg in Gaza in 7 years commenced prominent Israelis including Moshe Feiglin, Deputy Speaker of the Israeli Knesset, have called for the ethnic cleansing all of Israel and the Palestinian territories of non-Jews. See, eg. http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/15326#.U83RIuNdWFn ; Op-Ed: “My Outline for a Solution in Gaza: Clear and concise, the steps towards achieving quiet in Gaza.” By Moshe Feiglin, Deputy Speaker of the Israeli Knesset. Published: Tuesday, July 15, 2014 11:01 PM
But Palestinians will not again flee as some did in 1948 (when they saw that the Jewish militias were killing all Palestinians who resisted). All Palestinians will now stand their ground. This is a formula for genocide.
Like Feiglin, Hitler telegraphed his genocidal intentions in Mein Kampf. Nobody believed him. The world has noticed Feiglin, and won’t permit him or his fascist ilk to annihilate the Palestinians. Thanks in part to the world’s appreciation of the horror of the Holocaust, “never again” is now a universal norm, not a doctrine reserved to Israelis or Jews.
The logic of Israel’s commitment to ethnically cleanse the whole of the former British mandate of non-Jews, and the unwillingness of Palestinians to ever leave their ancestral land can only end in genocide, world military intervention up to and including regime change in Israel (or perhaps U.S. annexation and statehood for Israel AND the occupied territories, a novel one-state solution), or Israeli renunciation of noxious (Jewish supremacist) Zionist ideology in favor of a multi-cultural society and peace and reconciliation.
If it has to happen “the hard way” (via a US humanitarian military intervention to stop a genocide in progress) Moshe Feiglin’s face should be the Ace of Spades on the deck of cards US forces carry with them into battle.
Eric C. Jacobson
Public Interest Lawyer
“Both the UN and US also understood from the outset (and deplored) that Israel’s creation had occurred in conjunction with their ethnic cleansing of several hundreds of thousands of indigenous Arabs from several hundred villages in 1948, and that “a land without people for a people without land” was what the Jewish militias created (90%) via ethnic cleansing, NOT the situation before Israel’s creation, as Israeli officials and their American apologists would have it.”
Thank you for this thoughtful comment Mr. Jacobson. Unfortunately, most Americans are victims of media and State Zionist propaganda which neglects to properly trace the history regarding the creation of the State of Israel. Therefore; most Americans fail to understand the true nature and cause of this most recent Israeli progrom on the few remaining Palestinians residing in open-air prison camps in Gaza and the West Bank.
I try to help with the truth whenever I can and augment your above comment with this recent article:
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/07/25/damn-you-it-is-the-occupation-stupid/
See in particular the maps depicting Palestinian loss of land 1946 – 2000. Clearly, the State of Israel has been illegally grabbing land from the Palestinians and their justification for this is the ethnic cleansing of the State of Israel based on the premise of some god anointed racial, ethnic, and/or religious supremacy.
The very definition of an apartheid state engaged in genocide.
People who still have access to conscience and humanitarian goals; people still in possession of soul and spirit; must speak out now and clearly, that they recognize and oppose the Zionist goals and actions of the
State of Israel.
Thank you for your contribution to this effort.
Possibly the most accurate speech and journalism on the Palestine mass genocide. Highly recommend watching and sharing.
http://touch.dailymotion.com/video/x21pph7_chris-hedges-speech-about-gaza_news
Thank you, Thelight. Agreed. Hands down the best speech to date on this tragedy. The crowd rightly applauded his decisive denouncement of this notion that only one holocaust counts. I heard Hedges give a speech just as powerful at the protest to mark the tenth year of the War on Iraq. He’s a master wordsmith, one who allows appropriately outraged emotions to color his words. The time for tepid speeches is over.
For me,… Seeing a people picnic, party and celebrate the bombing of another people tells me all I need to know about them, as a society, and the “threat” as they perceive it.
An interesting analysis: It’s not the Israel lobby. It’s what the US wants. File under #OwningYourShit (emphases mine).
Blaming the lobby
http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2006/787/op35.htm
“….A filthy Zionist racist spews………..See that, Craig?…….What Zionism is is now showing to the whole world……”
With one simple broad-brush labeling of all Jews who believe in a home/state for the Jewish people as racist, you expose your own bigotry, Mona. I’m surprised that someone who is as educated as you resorts to labeling and stereotyping all Jews (Zionists Jews) using a statement by a misguided “Zionist” Jew (then again, I’m not). You have the gall to suggest: “……you will find that we here in Greenwald’s comments section are unusually knowledgeable and sophisticated on issues. …….”.
And while calling all Zionists racist (Zionism equals racism, yet again), you shrug off the racism pronounced in the charter by Hamas: “……Craig: Hamas, Shmamas…….”. Just like you exhibit an incredibly selective moral outrage when it comes to the murder of civilians in conflict, the same apparently applies to racism. It’s OK to be a racist and supremacist organization as long as they are aligned with your political goals – the end to the Jewish state. Those kikes have it coming.
The posters at this site are less knowledgeable than the posters at the Guardian. In my mind, there is no disputing that although certainly many of the same bigoted and ignorant comments were wrongly deleted at the Guardian like comparing Gaza to the Warsaw Ghetto, Nazi Germany to Israel and comments promoting the classic stereotyping of Jews like putting Israeli first over their own country (Israel firsters); they run our foreign policy; they run the Republican Party and on and on. Greenwald introduced a creative twist to an old theme when he compared Netanyahu to Goebbels. It’s no less bigoted because Greenwald (cutely) inferred the Nazi Germany to Israel comparison fully understanding the ideology of the Nazis (at least hopefully). That’s why that comparison is so misguided and completely without basis. That will only encourage the far right to join the discussion at the Intercept and post, ignorant, racist and bigoted comments with the complete unquestioning support of posters at this site. That’s when “far left” meets “far right”.
The posters at this site disseminate misleading and fabricated information while promoting classic stereotypes of Jews (especially Zionist Jews). The “Hasbara” doesn’t bother to show up here because they fear your knowledge and brilliant arguments, Mona, but because they realize that this is just another hate site heading in the direction of Stormfront. It’s already a lost cause.
On vacation, have fun…….
Taking the ‘fam’ to Spirit Lake for a ‘frolicking good time’, Wiz?
Safe Travels..
You seem quite touchy. Even though Mona described you accurately, I think, as a racist zionist I think. You did seem to make a generalization about Arab IQ, which would be a racist statement, and you are a zionist. What exactly are you complaining about.
I can see Mona’s comment burns you. Maybe you should have a discussion with someone who was burned by some Israeli weapon in development, that you’re using the Gazan’s as guinea pigs for. Have that discussion, then get back to us about how you feel.
I must say, you sound like a disgusting human being. If I were Jewish, I’d fucking disown your ass.
Just to be clear: Craig didn’t make any comment about Arab IQ that I’ve seen. I was responding to one Doug Nusbaum.
Nusbaum’s claim is standard racist stuff for Zionists, especially Zionists in Israel. An Israeli on Twitter a few weeks ago called me a “nigga.” (Recall that Donald Sterling told his mistress that in Israel blacks are “treated like dogs.” Much documentation support this.)
Anti-black and anti-Arab racism in Zionist Israel is rampant and pervasive, including from members of the Knesset. I have links if Craig disputes me.
I stand corrected.
Granted, it is a generalization to say “Israelis are racist.” If you pick an Israeli at random, you can’t presume they are racist a priori. That would be wrong. However, there are surveys on Israeli racism. As a group, they do tend to be racist. Additionally, support for Israeli violence comes mostly from old white male religious Americans.
Nice to hear another voice in the wilderness. So much fantasy in these posts. Doesn’t anybody bother to actually read history. Or are you so lazy you’ll just swallow all this Palestinian rewriting of history. You may not like it but the UN voted to give a tiny slice of land to the Jews. This was shortly after Jordan was made into a country and given to the adventure king Saudi Arabia which cut the mandate into a much smaller area. How many Muslim countries do there need to be? Can’t the Jews have just one without being terrorized all the time? And I’ll remind you that the terror didn’t start in 1967.
The the UN also give Israel the right to oppress others? I didn’t think so.
Terrorists marching in Portland yesterday: https://www.twitter.com/BobHeye
This is Israelis current take on Gaza, Its useful to read the other side sometimes
http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/07/idf-kibbutz-hamas-attack-tunnel-network-failure-kerry.html
Journalist is a moderate:
I write this as a journalist who is identified more with the Israeli left
Netanyahu is too moderate and Israel should conquer the territories
Israel will restrain itself and not dare “go all the way.” Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu may be a big talker, but he is somewhat less of a doer. He will not have the courage to sacrifice the necessary lives (about 200 soldiers according to one estimate) to conquer Gaza.
Israel should flatten more houses:
“The US Army would have flattened the house from the air. The Russian army would have flattened the entire town from the air. Let’s not even talk about what the Syrian army would have done, because that’s something of a sensitive issue these days.”
Israel Informs Civilians
In contrast, the IDF informs civilians that it is coming by way of text messages and phone calls and even by firing warning shots
Armageddon reference:
But in this war we must not get confused. This is a war between the Sons of Light and the Sons of Darkness.
@ Muhib:
“Israel Informs Civilians
In contrast, the IDF informs civilians that it is coming by way of text messages and phone calls and even by firing warning shots”
Oh really? Warning shots like these?
https://storify.com/MaxBlumenthal/eyewitness-to-israeli-massacre-in-khuza-a#publicize
Or these?
http://rt.com/news/175380-gaza-un-school-shelling/
These?
http://rt.com/news/173340-gaza-palestinian-children-killed/
Would you like more examples?
You are dumbass.
Israel had no right to have been created by stealing the Palestinian land, end of discussion.
I think some of us have suspected that there’s an element of racism to siding with Israel, although there’s never been any hard evidence of this.
There’s a poll that looks into support for Israel by race, with results here. See the third table. I think the age breakdown is related as well.
Welcome, Hasbara Brigades!
Whether you address us with your team from the “War Room” the Israeli college kids are bunkered in, or whether you are engaging us from the comfort of your own home, we are happy to see you.
However, you will find that we here in Greenwald’s comments section are unusually knowledgeable and sophisticated on issues pertaining to the Israeli oppression and occupation of Palestinians. To assist you, and in case you are unaware of it, I give you a link (pdf) to the Hasbara Handbook.
http://www.middle-east-info.org/take/wujshasbara.pdf
Several sections address handling the highly informed critic of Israel. There are many dos and don’ts.
See you around, and happy hasbara-ing!
There are stories coming out of the city of Khuza’a about the Israeli massacre taking place there. Women waving white flags trying to protect their children were shot at in the streets by Israeli soldiers. Ambulances were not allowed in to help the wounded and dying. The Israeli soldiers took Palestinian prisoners and used them as shields against the resistance fighters. Helicopter gunships fired at people trying to get out of the village.
https://storify.com/MaxBlumenthal/eyewitness-to-israeli-massacre-in-khuza-a#publicize
@ larry:
I am beyond words after reading that.
50 Israeli Reservists Refuse To Serve in Gaza War
http://forward.com/articles/202671/-israeli-reservists-refuse-to-serve-in-gaza-war/
I commend these soldiers and for their mission to serve the higher cause.
Thanks, Pedinska. I read the comment right before yours and thought it’s hopeless, but your link is the only way to end it, and it’s inspiring to know some are trying. It is going to take men and women of good conscience on both sides –but primarily Israel’s since it is the aggressor, and therefore bears the brunt of responsibility– who refuse to side with their corrupt leaders. May many more join those principled fifty. This is the only good news I’ve heard since this tragedy started.
I’ve essentially stopped reading Vox publications because of the vile attitude of Max Fisher. If this is the sort of people running Vox. How credible their publications can be?
It looks to me like Netanyahu is seeking the condemnation of the world out of contempt. Israel over all. Israel against the world.
@ larry:
That is my impression as well.
One world Zionist rule – with Zionist economic and political control provided by the Inner City Of London, with economic and religious control by the Vatican, and enforced by the political and military control power of the United States of America. Otherwise known as the “Three City States.”
Israel is just there as a political and religious outpost for the United States to better control the Middle East.
“Three Cities Rule The World”
See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEydmE57Vew
Slightly more detailed with regard to the History of the United States of America.
“Trinity of BABYLON: VATICAN-LONDON-WASHINGTON DC”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lr5ZZj7mOQU
Lyra1 – what is it with your “Three Cities Rule The World” and “Trinity of Babylon: Vatican-London-Washington DC” references? Are these part of some 21st Century digital era equivalent of “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion” hoax or something? If this is supposed to be an integral part of your world view then I think that you are seriously deluded.
I have repeatedly voiced my opposition to the current violence in Gaza in media forums from the moment that I first saw images of the 4 Palestinian children blown up on the beach at Gaza when shelled by an IDF gunboat. But I refuse to stoop to anti-semitism. I abhor the present actions of the Israeli government and IDF, but I do not hate Jews. I know that there are many Jews in Israel and elsewhere who abhor these actions as well.
Arguing about the rights or wrongs of the creation of the state of Israel in 1948, and who is the “legitimate” owner of the land based on what happened decades, centuries and even millennia ago serves no useful purpose. Israel exists, and isn’t going away. What is required is for all peoples living there to work together to bring a swift end to this immediate obscene violence, and then work towards an enduring peace involving an independent Palestinian state controlled by its own people.
Leave the Zionist/Three City States/Illuminati conspiracy nonsense for scary ghost stories around the campfire. Without them, your comments are fine as they are; with them, you sound like a nutcase.
@ Peter Oz:
Ah yes….the consummate subject matter expert that does not find historical data and facts relevant when examining the nature of aggression on the part of the State of Israel in Gaza and the West Bank against the few remaining prisoners of war who would like to live as Palestinians in the State of Palestine.
You are so special for voicing your opposition to a conflict which you can not possibly understand because you refuse to examine the historical facts. First, you appear to hold the concepts of Anti-Zionism and Anti-semitism to be equal in meaning. They are not. Anti-semitism pertains to discrimination of the Jewish people based on their religious beliefs. Anti-Zionism is clear opposition to the control of people based upon a political and economic ideological foundation which has been employed by the State of Israel against what was once the State of Palestine. If you were the open-minded individual that you profess to be; you would see that the links I posted above regarding the “Three City States” are strictly historical recordings regarding the ideology of Zionism stemming back to Babylonia and specifically discussing the impact of that ideology in the governments with regard to wars, religion, political and economic factors in the modern world view. In fact, the Jewish Religion is not mentioned, rather….it is the Christian Zionists (Vatican) that is targeted, along with the Inner city of London (The Crown) and Washington D.C.
So you see…you have displayed your gross ignorance with your comment. I would encourage you to contemplate the fact that the occupation of the State of Palestine by the State of Israel is relevant to understanding the nature of the current conflict as well as the nature of Zionism.
To that end read this:
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/07/25/damn-you-it-is-the-occupation-stupid/
[Lyra1 – I didn’t see a ‘Reply’ link on your specific response to my original comment so I’m using the same ‘Reply’ link as I used the first time.]
I am far from being a consummate subject matter expert and make no claims to be. However, I am aware of the historical background to the establishment of Israel in 1948 on land occupied by Palestinians at the time, and the resultant brutal ethnic cleansing that forced Palestinians from that land.
I also know the difference between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism; you are quite clearly an anti-Zionist. But as I explained, when I saw the terms “One world Zionist rule”, “Trinity of Babylon” and “Three Cities Rule The World” in your postings, I immediately thought of “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion” and similar anti-Semitic nonsense, as I’m sure others would. If I have offended you, I apologize.
I don’t think that I’m at all special for voicing my opposition to what is happening in Gaza. It is what any person of conscience should be doing. Approximately 150 Palestinian children have been killed in the past fortnight, which is 150 too many. It is obscene and unjustifiable. A kill rate of 20:1 favoring Israel, with most Israeli deaths being IDF soldiers and most Palestinian deaths being civilian non-combatants, is a massacre.
The Zionist goal of a homeland for the Jews is a fact and Israel exists. Some Zionists today wish to purge Israel of all non-Jews and ethnically cleanse Gaza and West Bank of Palestinians. Other Zionists have empathy for the plight of the Palestinians, reject the negative stereotyping and say that Palestinians deserve respect. In my experience of life things are seldom simply black and white.
Any solution to the situation on the ground today must reflect the reality of the 21st Century in the Middle East. Waffling on about Babylonia and your Vatican, Washington D.C and the City of London obsession contributes nothing to a solution. Working for the establishment of an independent Palestinian state controlled by Palestinians does.
Toddler ‘killed in ICU’ as Israel bombs Gaza City hospital
http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=716011
Netanyahu is unhappy and out for revenge. He is also bombed “a UN-run school in northern Gaza.”
“Women, children, UN staff killed in shelling of school in Gaza”
See: http://rt.com/news/175380-gaza-un-school-shelling/
See
Israel is giving Palestinians resources, financial support, and basic human decency such as calls warning civilians of air strikes in the area. In contrast, Hamas aims to kill not only Israelis, but to use its citizens as human shields, requiring them to remain in their houses, and on their roofs, while Hamas leaders hide in tunnels underground. Although Israel takes extreme measures to protect Gazan citizens, through calling civilians in areas that are at risk, as well as cancelling operations where women and/or children are seen; Israel has a right to protect its citizens. No other country would stand for constant rocket fire while economically supporting the aggressing country, neither should Israel. Hamas are forcing the citizens of Gaza to stay put and live on top of the rockets and Hamas workers. Hamas is hiding under innocent civilians, and if those citizens don’t leave even after they are warned by the Israeli army about being hit by an airstrike(no army does that), then they risk their own life with knowing the consequences.
Total hasbara fail.
Israel is the aggressing, occupying country. No people — NO PEOPLE — would put up with what Zionists have done to Palestinians. Moshe Dayan knew and admitted this in 1956, giving a eulogy for a dead Israeli soldier:
And Israel’s crimes have only increased since 1956. Israel has followed Dayan’s admonition to take up the steel helmet and gun barrel against a people it has deeply wronged.
Jailers do tend to feed their prisoners, even in the worst gulags and ghettos in history, so I don’t find your argument convincing.
>>>>Israel is giving Palestinians resources, financial support
By withholding the taxes collected on their behalf
>>>>and basic human decency such as calls warning civilians of air strikes in the area.
Which is worthless unless you have somewhere to run to
>>>>>In contrast, Hamas aims to kill not only Israelis, but to use its citizens as human shields, requiring them to remain in their houses, and on their roofs, while Hamas leaders hide in tunnels underground.
I’m sure Hamas would have installed an Iron Dome system, had they the resources and ability to import one.
>>>>>Although Israel takes extreme measures to protect Gazan citizens
Killing kids on the beach to protect Gazan citizens is certainly an extreme measure… Does Israel have a Minority-report style system that predicts future terrorists now?
>>>>>No other country would stand for constant rocket fire while economically supporting the aggressing country, neither should Israel.
Agreed. No other people would accept being repressed and having their property stolen and being redefined out of existence either.
>>>>amas are forcing the citizens of Gaza to stay put and live on top of the rockets and Hamas workers.
Where would you like them to put them? An Army base surrounded by AA batteries perhaps?
>>>>and if those citizens don’t leave even after they are warned by the Israeli army about being hit by an airstrike(no army does that), then they risk their own life with knowing the consequences.
Where would you like them to run to? Israel has fenced them in like chickens in a coop.
http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/www.thejerusalemfund.org/carryover/documents/charter.html?chocaid=397
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_suicide_bombers_in_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict
http://www.targetofopportunity.com/political_quotes_islam.htm
some quotes from the charter: For our struggle against the Jews is extremely wide-ranging and grave, so much so that it will need all the loyal efforts we can wield, to be followed by further steps and reinforced by successive battalions from the multifarious Arab and Islamic world, until the enemies are defeated and Allah’s victory prevails.
The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim).
Israel, by virtue of its being Jewish and of having a Jewish population, defies Islam and the Muslims. “Let the eyes of the cowards not fall asleep.”
Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors.
So what do we know from the words of the Palestinians and their government and its charter.
They prefer death to life, and the greatest thing that they can do is to die for their cause
They will not rest until all of Israel is theirs, and all the Jews are dead.
Well to bad for them. They are just whiny and stupid (Average Arab IQ by almost every measure is under 90. There are states in this country that publish more books than all of Arabia, they invent almost nothing, they create almost nothing. All that they can do is kill and consume the wealth derived form their oil) And since death and martyrdom is their goal in life, then why are they complaining? See links and quotes at the top. Of more interest is why are all non-palestinians supporting them? Cause, according to their belief system, you, whoever you are, if you are not Muslim, then you are next. And after all the non muslims are dead, then they will start killing each other as they so often do when there are no other soft targets around.
They prefer soft targets because, given their limited intellect, that is all that they can really handle. Ever heard of an arap fighter plane? How about an arab weapon of any kind that is not just a box of nails and some stolen explosives. (Iran is persian, not arab)
The only reason that anyone is complaining about the deaths of these arabs is because Jews are involved. The entire world, especially Arabs, put little value on the lives of arabs. The lives of arab women have zero value except as property. One a-sexual american once said that sex is like having someone else blow your nose for you. This is pretty much how Arab culture views women, as something to use for the sexual equivelant of blowing a mans nose. But women are the source of life in the civilized world. So you have a culture whose highest goal is death, does not see women as anything more than a mans property to be used and discarded when it no longer pleases him, does not invent or create anything and very well knows the lives of its members have a value of just above zero. When Arabs are killing each other at a rate of almost 100 per day for over two years as in Syria, no one cares. Add in Iraq at 300 per week, and Lybia at — well whose counting any more? And nobody cares. Because Arabs killing Arabs is not news. It is what they do.
Since the people complaining hate Jews so much how about if you hate us so much you can Join the BDS movement. You can start by refusing to use anything that uses, as the nazis called it, Jewish science. Give up your cell phones and computers, and go live in a cave.
Special note to girls. What exactly are your thoughts on honor killing, and having your labia and clitoris removed? If you are part of the GLTB community you will be stoned to death in Palestine!!!
There is a similarity between the Palestinians and the Nazis. Both groups said that they wanted to kill the Jews. In the 1930’s no one believed Hitler. Now a large number of people do not believe that HAMAS “really wants to kill the jews”. The difference between people who are stupid and not stupid, is that stupid can not or will not learn from experience. The people living in Israel are Not stupid. They have the 3rd highest representation in the world on the Nasdaq. The Ashkenazi have by far the highest IQ (115+) in the world, almost 2 SD greater than that of arabs. When the Jews said “Never Again” they meant it. They are as serious about it as a Nuclear Weapon (Look up sampson option)
A filthy Zionist racist spews:
See that, Craig? Heinous shit like that from Israeli Zionists is littering social media.
What Zionism is is now showing to the whole world.
Agree.
Terribly sorry that I have to read this load twice.
http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/www.thejerusalemfund.org/carryover/documents/charter.html?chocaid=397
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_suicide_bombers_in_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict
http://www.targetofopportunity.com/political_quotes_islam.htm
some quotes from the charter: For our struggle against the Jews is extremely wide-ranging and grave, so much so that it will need all the loyal efforts we can wield, to be followed by further steps and reinforced by successive battalions from the multifarious Arab and Islamic world, until the enemies are defeated and Allah’s victory prevails.
The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim).
Israel, by virtue of its being Jewish and of having a Jewish population, defies Islam and the Muslims. “Let the eyes of the cowards not fall asleep.”
Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors.
So what do we know from the words of the Palestinians and their government and its charter.
They prefer death to life, and the greatest thing that they can do is to die for their cause
They will not rest until all of Israel is theirs, and all the Jews are dead.
Well to bad for them. They are just whiny and stupid (Average Arab IQ by almost every measure is under 90. There are states in this country that publish more books than all of Arabia, they invent almost nothing, they create almost nothing. All that they can do is kill and consume the wealth derived form their oil) And since death and martyrdom is their goal in life, then why are they complaining? See links and quotes at the top. Of more interest is why are all non-palestinians supporting them? Cause, according to their belief system, you, whoever you are, if you are not Muslim, then you are next. And after all the non muslims are dead, then they will start killing each other as they so often do when there are no other soft targets around.
They prefer soft targets because, given their limited intellect, that is all that they can really handle. Ever heard of an arap fighter plane? How about an arab weapon of any kind that is not just a box of nails and some stolen explosives. (Iran is persian, not arab)
The only reason that anyone is complaining about the deaths of these arabs is because Jews are involved. The entire world, especially Arabs, put little value on the lives of arabs. The lives of arab women have zero value except as property. One a-sexual american once said that sex is like having someone else blow your nose for you. This is pretty much how Arab culture views women, as something to use for the sexual equivelant of blowing a mans nose. But women are the source of life in the civilized world. So you have a culture whose highest goal is death, does not see women as anything more than a mans property to be used and discarded when it no longer pleases him, does not invent or create anything and very well knows the lives of its members have a value of just above zero. When Arabs are killing each other at a rate of almost 100 per day for over two years as in Syria, no one cares. Add in Iraq at 300 per week, and Lybia at — well whose counting any more? And nobody cares. Because Arabs killing Arabs is not news. It is what they do.
Since the people complaining hate Jews so much how about if you hate us so much you can Join the BDS movement. You can start by refusing to use anything that uses, as the nazis called it, Jewish science. Give up your cell phones and computers, and go live in a cave.
Special note to girls. What exactly are your thoughts on honor killing, and having your labia and clitoris removed? If you are part of the GLTB community you will be stoned to death in Palestine!!!
There is more of a similarity between the Nazis and the Palestinians. Both had a final solution. Both groups wanted to kill Jews. Both groups stated as much. In both cases the vast majority of the world did not believe that is what the Palestinians or Nazis “Really wanted” The difference between stupid and not stupid is that stupid does not learn from experience. Clearly a large people who are not Jewish have not lrearned from experience. The Jews (Israel has the 3rd highest representation in the world on the Nasdaq, average IQ of Ashkenazi Jews is 117 which is about 2 SD greater than that of the average Arab. ) are not stupid. When they said NEVER AGAIN they meant it. They are as serious about it as a nuclear weapon.
@ Doug Nusbaum
Well that was a magnificent load of crap.
You have arrived at the wrong page. Error 404.
You have obviously not been reading the prior comments. You are implying that the entities of Jewish people and the entities of Arab people are somehow separated by something known as religious beliefs and then proceed to imply, that by virtue of religious orientation – one group X, which you call the Jews, has superior intelligence because their war god says so. The other Group Y , which you Arabs or Palestinians; who does not believe in your war god, has not been given the attribute of any intelligence.
Any one with common sense would find something radically wrong with this line of clearly bigoted, irrational thought whole based upon religious beliefs. Any studies based upon this faulty reasoning are totally invalid.
Just in case you haven’t figured it out, you have been just as abused by the ideology of Zionists as everyone else in the world. In fact, people of the Jewish faith have often been lead to the slaughter by their own Zionist Masters. A classic example of this is Zionist Nazi Germany progroms and genocide conducted against people of the Jewish faith.
Zionism is all about economic, political, and religious control of humanity on Planet Earth. You are not a golden exemption to the rules just because you are of Jewish faith. In fact, you are more vulnerable to being used, and in higher danger of sub-servitude to spiritual masters adept at killing souls.
Think about it. It is never to late to save yourself.
Why is it that, majority of the world sees Israel as the aggressor and oppressor, yet here in the United States(where our tax dollars goes to pay for the killing and whole families) most people believe Israel is the victim.
Clearly Netanyahu is not pleased with the UN Human Rights Council.
“Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu fumes over the UN Human Rights Council’s plan to strike up an investigation into Tel Aviv’s human rights violations in the Gaza Strip.
Netanyahu vented his anger on Thursday at a joint press conference with British Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond in al-Quds (Jerusalem).
“It’s a travesty of justice; it’s a travesty of fairness; it’s a travesty of common sense; it’s a travesty of truth,” Netanyahu said.
His remarks came after the UN Human Rights Council (UNHRC) launched a commission on Wednesday to investigate Israel’s war crimes in Gaza.”
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/07/24/372612/netanyahu-slams-un-plan-to-probe-israel/
The only nation that voted against the UN probe was the USA. Nine European Nations abstained from voting. 29 States voted in favor of the Investigation. Imagine the audacity of those 29 States to question the State of Israel.
I’ve had enough of this argument that if you are sympathetic to the Palestinian cause it’s because you hate Jews. It’s not about Jews; it’s about justice and common human decency .
@ larry:
Absolutely!
Zionism is a political and economic ideology and control mechanism for all people to include the Jewish people. Zionism is universal and just so happens to be the political ideology of the State of Israel. Given that the United States continually supports the progrom of the State of Israel against the few remaining Palestinians in Gaza and on the West Bank; it is becoming clear how deeply the Zionist ideology has entrenched itself into the US Government and Religious institutions. There are many Christian Zionists. Anti-Zionism is not directed toward people of the Jewish faith therefore; all the claims of “anti-semetism” made against Anti-Zionists are simply not valid.
Let common sense and decency rule….Not the economic and political land acquisition interests of the State of Israel.
In these most recent attacks of the State of Israel against the
Sorry…..Strike the last unfinished line – “In these most recent attacks of the State of Israel against the.” Incomplete thought.
“It’s a travesty of justice; it’s a travesty of fairness; it’s a travesty of common sense; it’s a travesty of truth,” Netanyahu said.
Says one on the edge of total insanity. Unless of course..he was speaking of Gaza.
If one has any doubt at all regarding what the State of Israel is doing to the remnants of the Palestinianian people who have been herded into an open-air prison camp called Gaza. Please view this aerial photo in which Gaza is clearly lit up. http://rt.com/news/175164-gaza-photo-space-astronaut/
“‘Saddest photo yet’: Astronaut photographs Gaza offensive from space”
Impressive freedom of speech and of the press in the “only democracy” in the Middle East:
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-gaza-conflict-2014/1.606908
Thank you, Glenn Greenwald, for illuminating one aspect of this bloodbath, and without saying the Israelis are behaving like Nazis. Show, don’t tell; a journalistic (or just plain writing) principle you are adhering to.
Millions of Americans still equate the modern state of Israel with biblical Israel. (They bring God into it). Add to that the propaganda machine known as AIPAC, the msm misinformation factory, and the blind subservience of Washington for its client state and you can understand why Americans don’t have a clear picture of the situation. What many people know is the product of mythology and deliberate disinformation. Real journalists have their work cut out for them in trying to change it.
The Jews run Washington. The Jews run American foreign policy. The Jews run the media. The Jews run the financial system. The Jews run Hollywood. The Jews run Christians.
Way to make the Intercept into a hate site, Larry.
It’s not about Jews except in your mind.
It is about Jews in the sense that many American Jews have lost their souls to Zionism. As Max Blumental puts it, Zionism kills Palestinian bodies, and Jewish souls.
Myeah, NOBODY will think you’re being disingenuous, what with all the putting words into people’s mouths and such…. nah.
Times they are achangin’, Part 748. POLITICO, just published this guy:
Whose article in Politico is titled: Israel Provoked This War: It’s up to President Obama to stop it.
Hell. Frozen. Over.
Article: http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/07/israel-provoked-this-war-109229.html#.U9C3bvldXa7
The other “they” create telegenically dead Palestinians for their cause.
Final steps to the final solution?
Old Testament, old sins. Jim Crow and Apartheid preserved. White Supremacy still.
Racism. Hatred. Land grabs go on, the land moist with children’s blood – The murderers herded them onto a reservation; confined them in a concentration camp, an open-air prison.
Just stop – who arms, funds, condones, excuses, and shields all of this? Who makes these executions costless? What does this say about them, US? Freedom loving? Democracy loving? Truth loving? Justice loving? The American Way not taken. I see you Ugly America. We see you.
First step to reformation; or rebellion?
The other “they” create telegenically dead Palestinians for their cause.
Final steps to the final solution?
Old Testament, old sins. Jim Crow and Apartheid preserved. White Supremacy still.
Racism. Hatred. Land grabs go on, the land moist with children’s blood – The murderers herded them onto a reservation; confined them in a concentration camp, an open-air prison.
Just stop – who arms, funds, condones, excuses, and shields all of this? Who makes these executions costless? What does this say about them, US? Freedom loving? Democracy loving? Truth loving? Justice loving? The American Way not taken. I see you Ugly America. We see you.
First step to reformation; or rebellion?
I found this Op-ed to be right on target. (‘Palestinians are Warsaw Ghetto prisoners of today’)
“Those heroic men and women of the Warsaw Ghetto share a stronger bond with the besieged and oppressed people of Gaza than they do, or ever could, with those who have spent the past two weeks slaughtering them in their name. It is a bond of humanity that transcends religion, ethnicity, or creed. It is a bond forged in a shared oppression at the hands of those who claim the right to kill and oppress in the name of civilization. ”
http://rt.com/op-edge/174980-warsaw-ghetto-prisoners-palestinians/
Also found this to be encouraging: “Israel may be guilty of war crimes – UN Human Rights Chief”
http://rt.com/news/174948-un-israel-palestine-talks/
“Israel maybe committing war crimes in Gaza, the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights says. Speaking in Geneva, Navi Pillay said house demolitions and the killing of children raise the “strong possibility” that Israel is violating international law.”
Lyra1
You might actually do some reading on the Warsaw Ghetto. About 300,000 Jews were murdered. You are abusing history and conflating Israel with Nazi Germany (something Greenwald encourages). You are distorting (greatly) the history of the IP conflict and creating your own narrative for the war in Gaza.
If only a few thousand had been murdered, would that have made the Warsaw Ghetto acceptable?
The number of deaths is far different. But the main difference is Nazi ideology which called for the extermination of Jewish people. This simply makes this comparison absurd.
Of course Israel is not exactly like Nazi Germany or Apartheid South Africa. That’s not what the analogies assert. No regime would be stupid enough to be a carbon copy of one that was historically discredited. The point is that there are elements of similarity: A segregated population, under external control, with little freedom to trade with the outside world or to travel, impoverished, angry; wanting to fight back, even though they are well aware their opponent is much more powerful militarily.
BTW, South Africans largely see Israel as an apartheid state.
@ Craig Summers:
First of all, I sincerely doubt that you read that article.
You are the one who is attempting to destroy and mutate history in order to justify the actions of the Zionist State of Israel against the remnants of what was once the State of Palestine; who have now been forcibly resettled and contained in the open air prison camps of Gaza and the West Bank. Much like the Nazis did to the people of the Jewish faith in the Warsaw Ghetto. Just as the Jewish people of the Warsaw ghetto (open-air prison camp) attempted to fight the Nazi pogroms, so are the Palestinian people fighting against the unrelenting attacks of Israel. Which is exactly what the article said.
Speaking of history let us speak intelligently regarding the facts. Given that your proclivity is primarily to spread Zionist propaganda regarding the actions and objectives of the State of Israel, it is only fair to present the historical facts in something of a concise format, regarding “The Origin of Palestine-Israel Conflict,” as I have done before on this board. This work is significant because it has been written exclusively and objectively by people who are Jewish.
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html
Read it. The history of the Gaza Strip and the Zionist motivations of the State of Israel are clearly cited therein.
And here is another very concise ”Brief History of Palestine.”
http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/a-brief-history-of-palestine.html
If one is really interested, there is this – “Early History of Palestine” which goes back into ancient time.
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_early.php
The Onion: Israel: Palestinians Given Ample Time To Evacuate To Nearby Bombing Sites
http://www.theonion.com/articles/israel-palestinians-given-ample-time-to-evacuate-t,36527/?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=SocialMarketing&utm_campaign=Default:2:Default
(“Giving Palestinian civilians the chance to seek safety in the home of a family member or friend that will be shelled to rubble in the next 48 hours is a gesture we deserve praise for, not condemnation. In fact, this initiative has been a major success in this campaign.” )
Even ‘The Onion’ understands the truth.
NYT: Foreign Correspondents in Israel Complain of Intimidation
I am shocked at most of the commenter’s on this site. Even though I served in the military and have met many people in my life, I am appalled. Before I wrote this, I thanked God that I don’t think like some of you. While I guess 99 percent of you only share these views behind the safety of a keyboard, to take all this time to spew venom at people you have never met is…what? Stupid? Racist? Nieve? A good healthy way to spend time?
For fucks sake, get off the fucking computer, go to an anger management class, and then go out and listen to the conversations of intelligent, normal human beings.
GC. I have PTSD and can certainly understand why the threat of violence everyday could lead to the symptoms you describe. If you made that shit up to prove a point, fuck you. However, I believe what you wrote is true and I sympathize.
I will not post on this site again, so save your personal attacks for someone else. If you do decide to attack, my standard response will be “fuck you”.
To hate a collective group is stupid and narrow minded.
To hate a person based on culture or background is racist.
To give anyone a chance and show kindness from the beginning is Devine.
Watching Max Blumenthal on AJE live. There’s a reason why Max and Glenn are not invited to talk on US TV, when it comes to Israel. Either one of them will just destroy the entire TV establishment on this topic.
Max Blumenthal is a stone cold, balls of steel mofo.
Max is just awesome. But it pisses me off that AJE doesn’t stream, or post clips, in the U.S.
what happens when you go to their .com website?
Not sure. But when AJ-America premiered on cable news last winter, AJE stopped being accessible here.
According to Max, everyone should go to hola.com, to see aje. good luck.
Thanks! Max isn’t Glenn (who is?), but he’s very good speaking on the I/P issues.
I got to http://www.aljazeera.com/ a back way, through an old link. It isn’t Aljazeera America.
Here’s Max Blumenthal’s profile page – http://www.aljazeera.com/Services/Search/?q=max%20blumenthal
Al Jazeera English Live Stream
http://www.zahistations.net/watch-al-jazeera-english-live#
@ seer & Tujays:
Both Aljazeera links that you provided worked just fine.
Thanks.
Haven’t watched it yet (videos I want to see are piling up — haven’t yet finished Ellsberg and Snowden conversing at HopeX), but this Democracy Now! debate between Ali Abunimah with “liberal Zionist” J.S. Goldberg is reported to be superb. Ali is reported to have crushed his opponent: http://www.democracynow.org/2014/7/23/a_debate_on_gaza_ali_abunimah#.U9Aq2W4BvY4.twitter
Abunimah is the best spokesperson for the Palestinian cause I have ever listened to. He should be on the major msm networks but that’s not likely to happen.
Give it another 5 years. Ten years ago the fear of the anti-semitic libel had virtually all public voices self-censoring in America. The Israel Lobby and its media friends have been increasingly unable to shut people up with that one. Articles and books are being written, and received, that just wouldn’t have been in 2004.
Now, with social media making it absolutely impossible for Israel and Zionists to sugar-coat and spin the atrocities they are inflicting on Gaza, we are seeing cracks in Establishment media re: reporting these events; some journalists are departing from the Zionist script. Op-eds are appearing even in the NYT you would never have seen before.
Give it another 5 years, and Abunimah will appear on cable news. If a Republican takes the WH in ’16, it could even happen on MSNBC.
Mona
“……Now, with social media making it absolutely impossible for Israel and Zionists to sugar-coat and spin the atrocities they are inflicting on Gaza, we are seeing cracks in Establishment media re: reporting these events; some journalists are departing from the Zionist script. Op-eds are appearing even in the NYT you would never have seen before……”
It’s not the Zionist script that needs to change. It’s the Hamas charter i.e., script that needs to be revamped. As long as Hamas continues to wage war against Israel, the Palestinians are going to suffer the consequences.
Most Americans still strongly support Israel although there are some changes occurring mostly in the Democratic party.
Craig: Hamas, Shmamas. As I posted below, 91 prominent members of Gazan civil society have said that they, not Hamas, support no ceasefire until the status quo ante is lifted. The siege must go. They prefer to continue the fast death it’s oppressor is delivering now, over the slow one the world pays no attention to.
They are winning the hearts and minds of the world. The sea, it is changing. You, and Zionists like you, cannot stop it.
BTW, I just watched the Abunimah v. Goldberg debate. Outstanding. Utterly terrific. Goldberg was left speechless and sputtering, literally.
Can’t wait until Abunimah hits cable news. And as I said, within 5 years he will.
“……Hamas, Shmamas. As I posted below, 91 prominent members of Gazan civil society have said that they, not Hamas, support no ceasefire until the status quo ante is lifted……”
I’m talking about the long term consequences of Hamas ruling in Palestine. How has that worked out so far – since 2006 after Israel pulled out of gaza? You really have no answer for Hamas. While you spit vile at Jews calling them fascist (time after time), Hamas more aptly fits the description. Their brethren are currently exiling Christians in Iraq, while murdering Shia by the boat load.
I have said so many times that I support a Palestinian state. However, you are the one that seeks to deny Jews a state of their own. You are the one that quotes racist like Mehdi Hasan. You are the radical in the room, Mona.
By the way, that is 91 out of 1,800,000 Gazans. When do they get to vote??
Not Jews. Israeli Zionists. And they are. Here is Indian-American professor and cultural anthropologist (currently living in Jerusalem), Arpan Roy:
Rest his support for that claim here: http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/death-arabs-jerusalem.html
“Not Jews. Israeli Zionists. ……..With minor changes, it can easily be adopted as the manifesto of the Israeli right…..”
Jews, Mona. Jews, OK? Most of the Jews in Israel are Zionist (except for some Kooks on the far left). And pick and choose what you want to believe. I noticed that that quote from Roy came out of Mondoweiss which seems to fit your political bend, Mona:
“…….“[One fifth] of [the U.S. Senate] are Jews, even though Jews are just 2 percent of the population. Over half of the money given to the Democratic Party comes from Jews. Obama’s top two political advisers are Jewish, Rahm Emanuel and David Axelrod. The news lately has been dominated by Obama’s aides Kenneth Feinberg and Larry Summers. And what does it mean that the Treasury Secretary gets off the phone with Obama to confer immediately with Lloyd Blankfein of Goldman and Jamie Dimon of Morgan (Dimon’s Jewish; Blankfein would seem to be)? As I have frequently said, the biggest money game in town on the Republican side is Sheldon Adelson, a Zionist Jew.”…….”
Who are citizens of a nation-state that enshrines ethno-religious nationalism and murders and oppresses Palestinians, maintaining them in open air prisons. These particular Jews are despised not for their Jewishness per se, but for their Zionist nation-state.
Yanno that Hitler guy, Craig? His problem with Jews was irrational; based on nothing but scape-goating fantasy. The Palestinians, however, do not imagine their stolen land and that they live in a cage. Nor do they hallucinate that it is Zionist Jews doing this to them.
Finally, I don’t care what you feel about Mondoweiss. Roy’s article describing why Israel has veered into fascism stands on its own.
@ -Mona-:
Watched that debate. Certainly a heated one.
“ALI ABUNIMAH: Yeah, I mean, J.J. has offered us all of the propagandistic talking points that don’t stand up to scrutiny, and that’s one of the points of the media coverage. The only side that is being destroyed now is Palestine. We’re witnessing the destruction of Palestine—in Gaza, in the West Bank, in the Naqab, in the Negev, where Bedouins are being ethnically cleansed. The destruction of Palestine has been going on for almost 70 years. And J.J. Goldberg has the chutzpah to say that people in Gaza—
J.J. GOLDBERG: The word’s “chutzpah.”
ALI ABUNIMAH: —who are fighting for their survival and their existence, are trying to destroy Israel. This is the kind of Orwellian propaganda that is coming from the Israeli government and its apologists in the media here.”
Exactly.
Abunimah is the Palestinian-American version of Glenn Greenwald. Writes well, speaks even better. He spits out facts, and crushes the outrageous and offensive assertions of his Zionist opponent.
I loved this part; the last sentence is sublime:
——————————————–
NERMEEN SHAIKH: J.J. Goldberg, I want to turn to another point that you made in your most recent piece, which is that the momentum turned against Israel only on Sunday following what happened in Shejaiya, that international support for Israel diminished. Could you say a little about how you think that was reflected in media coverage, what the media coverage was like before, when there was more support for Israel’s military assault on Gaza, and what happened after Sunday, in the media coverage?
J.J. GOLDBERG: The media coverage has been fairly straight. It’s been reporting from Gaza on what’s going on.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Before and after.
J.J. GOLDBERG: Before and after. And when there’s a lot more people killed, it looks a lot worse. It is a lot worse. And so, the demonstrations and the rallies against Israel in Europe and America have increased. You begin to see European leaders beginning to distance themselves. I think I wrote the wind shifted, and I’ve written in a couple of tweets and so on that Israel jumped the shark. It went—it went overboard. It went a step beyond what it had been doing. The ground campaign essentially was a declaration of war on the Palestinian people.
AMY GOODMAN: Ali Abunimah, J.J. Goldberg said there’s a monotony to massacre.
ALI ABUNIMAH: I’m still trying to get my head around that phrase, frankly, Amy, just the callousness of it, the inability to absorb the enormity of the catastrophe. Someone calculated that if Gaza were the United States, in terms of population, we’re talking about, you know, 80-90,000 dead in the space of a few days. There isn’t a single family in Gaza that hasn’t lost people. We’re talking about entire families wiped out. At the beginning, J.J. Goldberg was whining that there isn’t enough coverage of Israel being bombarded, as if there’s any comparison whatsoever, not just to what Israel is doing to Gaza now, but to what Israel has been doing to Gaza for eight years, what Israel has been doing to Gaza since 1967, what Palestinians have been going through for decades—being forced off their land, being killed. I mean, we’re not paying attention even to the West Bank. All eyes are on Gaza, but people are being killed in the West Bank. Land is being taken in the West Bank. The destruction of Palestine continues, so that people like J.J. can sit in New York and pontificate about how American Jews in North America need a spare country so that they can feel safe.
this is a direct result to those who wants to destroy Israel.
Israel has the very basic right to defend itself against terrorism.
Stop terror and live.
Terror is boomerang
Israel has the very basic right to defend itself against terrorism.
That’s not what it’s doing. It is massacring — committing politicide on — an entire people, so that the oppressed and encaged people dies or is “finally” willing to be transferred.
BTW, there is a hasbara college-students manual available online. It gives instructions on how to “handle” sophisticated” people who know some facts and history. You might consul it, because your hasbara is very poor.
Sharif Kouddous who is in Gaza has a link on his twitter feed to a video showing the assault on Shejaiya. It is horrific and deeply disturbing.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=741066039290541&permPage=1
The IDF is in the process of cutting off all electricity in Gaza. This will have the “huge benefit” of making it very difficult to record and post such things. But life on the Tel Aviv beaches is still just awesome. And they are still tipping the sushi boys.
You should be in Syria. Nothing brings the left out of the woodwork like the IP conflict and it’s driven – for the most part – by anti Americanism. If Israel was not an ally of the US, they could totally wipe out the Palestinians without any backlash (like the Sri lanka government totally destroyed the Tamil Tigers without any fanfare).
Your birth certificate: Craig Whataboutery Summers.
I’m not quite sure why you just dismiss “whataboutery”. It simply points out your narrow political-driven view of civilian deaths. Murder causes an outcry when it falls within your political objectives, but means nothing outside of that narrow point of view – like conflicts involving the US and Israel (but you are plum loco when Israel is the country). That’s why you dismiss whataboutery, Mona.
And it has nothing to do with “we are complicit”. That’s pure bullshit. The European fringe left is far more politically dominant in Europe than the US – and they are colored by the same political viewpoint – anti US and anti Israel. This has absolutely nothing to do with “we are complicit”. This is a political philosophy which has nothing to do with your citizenship. Greenwald is the classic case. That’s why the only article he has written on Syria is when Israel attacked the weapons depots. He now has written at least three articles on Israel at the Intercept. No one outside of the US even comes close.
You need to fess to your hatreds Mona – and quit bullshitting about “we are complicit”.
Thanks Mona.
I’m not quite sure why you just dismiss “whataboutery”. It simply points out your narrow political-driven view of civilian deaths. Murder causes an outcry when it falls within your political objectives, but means nothing outside of that narrow point of view – like conflicts involving the US and Israel (but you are plum loco when Israel is the country). That’s why you dismiss whataboutery, Mona.
And it has nothing to do with “we are complicit”. That’s pure bullshit. The European fringe left is far more politically dominant in Europe than the US – and they are colored by the same political viewpoint – anti US and anti Israel. This has absolutely nothing to do with “we are complicit”. This is a political philosophy which has nothing to do with your citizenship. Greenwald is the classic case. That’s why the only article he has written on Syria is when Israel attacked the weapons depots. He now has written at least three articles on Israel at the Intercept. No one outside of the US even comes close.
You need to fess to your hatreds Mona – and quit bullshitting about “we are complicit”.
Thanks Mona.
You know Craig, I actually think you have a point on this one. I thought the examples of whataboutery in the case of Snowden were absurd and complete non sequiturs. “He needs to talk about human rights in Russia!” followed about as much as “How much time has he spent volunteering at animal shelters! That’s very important for us to know before judging!” In this case, though, there is inclusion / exclusion of what is being covered in the news, with an emotional emphasis (Tweets about emotional reactions to civilian children who have been harmed, etc.) that speaks to how important they feel it is. It’s a bit different.
I have to admit, I do get a bit perturbed when people *only get extremely distraught and weep when certain children are in question. If those same people don’t seem to be losing any sleep over children in the Congo (where the death rate for children has been exponentially higher), or South America, or Israel, or experiencing what amounts to torture via abuse while languishing in underfunded or nonexistent social service systems in various parts of the world, etc., etc., it seems a bit selective. I support the right of people to be selectively empathetic in the abstract. If something happens to your child, neighbor, or friend, of course you will feel it more viscerally. But it does, in the end, speak to priorities. If you are not crying over every life, the ones you *are crying over say something about your views.
If people were upset about aggregate suffering, they’d be about 2 million (literally) times more upset about war in the Congo. What this leads me to believe, then, is that people are upset about specific circumstances in which suffering occurs, which speak to them for whatever reason. Perhaps there is a tinge of exceptionalism to it, as in, oh, those are just Arabs killing Arabs or Africans killing Africans, not someone like *us doing the killing, which is way more unacceptable. Maybe it is, as Chomsky talks about, people focusing on the politics they feel they can impact (although that reasoning is a bit tenuous where Israel-Palestine is concerned). Maybe it’s the power politics involved that particularly bother people on the far left. But it speaks to something other than a straightforward reaction to suffering.
It has everything to do with that. For the reasons Mehdi Hasan recites, and which you do not address. I, Craig, am not abstract “leftists” in Europe; I’m an American citizen who, for decades, spouted hardcore Zionism. I have amends to make.
I am outraged that my country lets Israel do to the Palestinians what it does, and still keeps handing them a $3 billion check in military aid each year.
Each of those children killed in Gaza died with the direct assistance of Uncle Sam, who has leverage with the Israelis, but who will not use it.
Yes, I am terribly, terribly complicit.
Graphic showing countries that recognize Palestine — and those who do not — quite revealing http://t.co/fE0U1GJQeQ
Mona, can you link to the image directly, please. It’s blocked for me as “sensitive material” unless I sign up for a twitter account. IOW, can you open the image and post *that* link? Will that work? I’d love to see the image of those countries.
Sorry see, it is an image only attached to a tweet.
Thanks for trying. I found the button that opens the image and had spoken too soon.
Shouldn’t have given so much weight to the ridiculous warning – sensitive information.
An image of a map showing most of the world not controlled by US/UK domination of culture and thought, does not support the atrocity that Israel has become, is too sensitive for some eyes?
It might give some Zionists food for thought, I suppose. And that could turn into a fine, sensitivity promoting event. Oh, but I’ve lapsed into fantasy.
While you are at it, can you post the ones that recognize Israel. It’s quite revealing as well.
Very revealing indeed, Craig. Places in the world that have been subjected to Western imperialism support Palestine.
That map, Summers, automatically shows the countries supporting Israel. They haven’t been colored that lovely green one associates with life and abundance. They’re in white. Too pure for anything, and hypocrites all. Can’t miss ’em.
“…….That map, Summers, automatically shows the countries supporting Israel……”
I haven’t seen the map, but based on what Mona said, I think you mean “recognizes” Israel, not “supports” Israel (although they might support them as well). How about the Arab Middle East, seer?
It is clear that Netanyahu is criminally insane, so impaired by mental defect that he does not know that his acts are immoral, against international law and contrary to our most basic human values.
Why on earth do the people in Israel want to give over their power to an insane person?
Netanyahu must be tried in an international court of law for crimes against humanity.
Along with everything else you may be trying to do to halt the atrocities against the civilians in Gaza, please call for the immediate trial of Netanyahu for war crimes.
I believe everybody should have a look at the latest TI story, just up.
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/article/2014/07/23/blacklisted/
Apologies if this information has been posted already – it’s important in that it shows Israel clearly responsible for antagonizing the situation from the kidnapping of the three boys to the invasion of Gaza – meticulously planned and executed.
http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/7/israel-hamas palestiniansconflictunitedstatesinternationallaw.html
And who claimed responsibility for the murders of the three boys?
Read all about it: http://www.timesofisrael.com/jihadist-group-takes-credit-for-teens-kidnapping/
@ seer:
Following your apparent thought-line, it might be useful to add some information regarding ISIL.
“They are getting their arms from the deep state network that ties together the sort of unofficial real governments, not the elected governments, but the deep states of the United States, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, and Israel, maybe throw in Qatar, if you want to.”
See: http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/07/08/isil-us/
Given everything that the USG hides from the public….I see no reason why this “secret” operation should be any exception to the golden rule.
Yes, that doesn’t surprise me at all. In fact, I have come to almost invariably expect such to be the case. I’m incredulous, suspicious, if and when it doesn’t.
Thanks, Lyra1
There is a video in this link http://scgnews.com/the-gaza-bombardment-what-youre-not-being-told that is a recording of one of the kidnapped teenagers, and a person speaking to him before the call ends spoke in Hebrew.
Repaired link to al Jazeera article above
What a ‘busload of bushwah’!! The sculpting actually decreased my ‘lack there of’ stature. (.. then again, maybe I shouldn’t have used capital letters)
* This preposition(?) was added to enhance its overall grammatical essence..
The sculpting actually decreased my ‘lack there of’ stature.
LOL!
Netenyahoo’s comment should read:
“They want the more dead, the better. And we are happy to oblige them!”
Mr Craig ‘Patriot’ Summers..
Pops. With all due respect, the source for your contribution is the ‘Syrian Observatory for Human Rights’ (SOHR). They’re an ‘information office opposed to the Government of Syria’ that is ‘run out of a two-bedroom terraced home in Coventry by one person, Rami Abdulrahman, a Syrian Sunni Muslim’.
Do you have an unbiased source that you’d like to reference who can validate these unsubstantiated claims? Maybe you can get your gullible friend *kelly to help you w/ your research.
Gracias, mi amigo.
@ suave:
Yeah….I noticed that too but avoid I the hot-shot, Zionist subject matter expert.
He is far too wordy for me.
Check out that whole Global Research in International Affairs (GLORIA). From the About tab on the homepage:
“The Global Research in International Affairs (GLORIA) Center, directed by Barry Rubin, is a research center located at the Interdisciplinary Center, Herzliya (IDC). IDC is Israel’s first private institution of higher learning.”
Click on IDC Herzliya from the homepage. This is where it goes:
http://portal.idc.ac.il/en/main/homepage/pages/homepage.aspx
Please click on the Faculty and Research tab. Very telling information regarding the driving message of Mr Stewart as well as his side-kick Kelly. Most definitely Zionist propaganda artists.
Lyra1
“……Most definitely Zionist propaganda artists…..”
Doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure that one out. This whole conflict is about propaganda and gaining the advantage for the international; audience – and we are ALL participants for one side or the other. In many ways international pressure drives the length of hostilities between Hamas and Israel. Of course, none of that matters in Syria where over 170,000 Muslims have been killed.
“Whataboutery, thy name be Summers.”
Hi suave
The 700 killed was reported in al-Jazeera so they certainly believe the numbers. Seems reasonable considering the participants and what they were fighting over. Take it or leave it.
Aloha, Craig..
I’m sure that there are a few different sites that have ‘reported’ this incident (.. link to aljaz?), but that is a given. What I’m looking for is a different SOURCE that can substantiate these numbers.
Much Appreciated..
You are beginning to sound like ScuzzaMan at the Guardian. He always wanted those numbers in Syria verified to the man. It’s a war zone suave. Do you believe they just stop the war and count the dead? Maybe the real number is 200 less, or 200 more because a few are buried in the rubble. Maybe when the Russian missile hit the passenger jet, it blew a few all the way to Syria. That’s what SOHR is reporting. They may be biased against the Syrian government (who isn’t?) . Since it’s the ISIS and Syrian forces fighting, I can only hope the report is true.
Thanks suave (Scuzza??)
Grand Wizard..
With all due respect,`cuzz is a doctorate to my ‘school house rock’ w/ respect to our academic existences. But, I digress..
Where in our exchange did I ask you to provide “those numbers in Syria verified to the man”? What was ‘simply stated’, was for you to provide another SOURCE besides the pro-Syrian one that has already been vilified for its bogus narrative.
ps – Please send my sincerest regards to`cuzz and his family.
Fuk’ You Very Much
If all the Jews “gave back” every bit of land in Palestine, and handed all of their houses and possessions, all of their infrastructure, all of their money to the Palestinians and just left. (as if they had a choice where to go in the first place, I for one would have “voted”(ha) Uganda, -we see from *wikipedia propaganda how that would have turned out.
If they handed over everything and went to Antarctica all by themselves, didn’t speak to anyone, didn’t bother anyone they would still be hounded just the same. reference: eskimo’s, native americans, australian aborigines, pacific islanders, etc etc etc.
All of latin America already singularly blame “jews”(aka middle eastern blood) for global warming/(or general pollution)! because of their wikipedia style media.
Where the fuck do you want them to go? I think the answer is very clear.
The Palestinians and greater Muslim region are the same as native americans, jews, aborigines, eskimo/inuit, islanders worldwide etc etc in this case. Obviously the entire situation is orchestrated by r1b intel for purpose of genocide, strategic technological development cheating and whatever else they do.
Focus all of your comments, all of the blame, all of the “genocide” accusations where it belongs. Your collective idiocy propagates the situation. All these western europeans commenting, placing blame on your two media designated options… If you actually cared about “human rights” and morality as you claim in your objective, you’d hold accountable the source not choose which victim you like the least.
You don’t have to go anywhere. Stay in Israel. Just go back to the 1967 borders. What’re you scared about? You’ve got the 4th most powerful army and whatnot. Who’s going to fuck with you?
If only Israel’s behavior was predicated on fear. It’s behavior is predicated on theft. Your members of Knesset, the Naftali Bennets, the Ehud Baraks, the Avigdor Liebermans, live in the fucking West Bank. Tell them to fuck off. Stop blaming the Palestinians for resisting.
And if you’re going to continue to steal land and dispossess people, then stop having such a fkn thin skin. Just admit it and fcking move on.
you have misunderstood my comment. Though it is a continuation of my other comments on other articles.
Total BS, especially this outright fabrication:
BTW, Israelis don’t need to “go” anywhere. They just need to stop screwing with people. Apart from those with imperialistic interests, people don’t generally resort to violence if they don’t have actual grievances. Has Israel tried anything close to this and determined that it wouldn’t work?
I think you have misunderstood my comment or what I was saying.
Maybe it’s in our DNA; Americans condoned the genocide of the native Americans; just as the “ruling class” is ignoring the same situation in Gaza today.
Americans are good people but they are lot vulnerable lot brainwashed by there media, it took so long to see the suffering of the Palestinians, please search for PEACE, PROPAGANDA AND THE PROMISED LAND on YouTube and watch that documentary
From the “only democracy in the middle east”:
Following wave of protests, Israel arrests scores of Arab activists, minors
Workplaces discipline Israeli Arabs for Facebook posts against Gaza incursion
Arab reporters come under attack from Israelis
And so it goes…..
http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/palestinian-detained-following.html
And yet, I can’t find any articles by HRW or Amnesty about “criminalization of social protest” in Israel. That’s a phrase they apparently reserve for a certain set of countries. They never used that phrase in the context of Occupy either.
Here’s a true story about me:
I grew up in Jerusalem and in my teens I enthusiastically supported the peace process. Then Hamas decided that the peace process wasn’t a very good thing for them – who needs a “resistance” movement when there’s nothing to resist? – and sent some suicide bombers to blow up busses full of people in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. I was 13 – 14 at the time and had to take the bus to school. Now you as you can imagine I was mortally afraid to take the bus. Who wouldn’t be in my position, knowing that the next bus ride to school could be my last? Possibly I suffered from PTSD due to the anxiety caused by having to ride the bus to school each day. Peace process? After all the anxiety I experienced, I couldn’t give fuck.
I don’t know if you ever experienced fear for your life, living comfortably in the west, but that fear overrides everything. Fear takes priority over logic, it takes priority over feelings, it takes priority over empathy.
Here’s the moral of the story then, which I tried to explain the day before yesterday, only to come under attack by Mona and her ilk. When the Palestinians fire rockets at Israeli civilians, this FEAR that overrides everything takes over. It does not matter that the rockets don’t kill many Israelis. The fact that that threat exists is enough for the fear to take charge. Nothing matters anymore, Palestinian lives are irrelevant. The only thing that matters is destroying the threat that causes the fear.
And so the fearful rise up and demand that the government neutralizes the threat, Palestinian lives be dammed. This is what so many here repeatedly failed to understand. Israel has the stronger army and when that FEAR bubbles up to the surface, the army will move to neutralize the threat. You don’t have to like it, but you must accept it because this is the reality on the ground. In my opinion it is crucial to resolving this conflict. Why? Because as I’ve stated repeatedly, your impotent rage at Israel’s actions, your protests, your angry blog posts change absolutely jack shit. You are powerless to improve the lives of the Palestinians. Nothing you can do, no matter how hard you scream and shout will make a dent, because the FEAR that drives this is primal and not logical or rational.
Until you realize that all those examples you keep bringing up are not examples of racism and hatred, but are examples of primal, uncontrollable FEAR, you are doomed to failure.
If our impotent blog posts, or Glenn Greenwald’s articles are useless, then why care about posting here?
I can definitely understand your PTSD, of you growing up as a child in Jerusalem. I can even understand the rationale to want to strike out with all your might against Hamas, if it means saving even one Israeli toenail. But my understanding does not stop there. My understanding extends to the Palestinian who refuses to live like a second, third or fourth class human being. Nobody is going to live under the subjugation of others. Its a funny human trait. People will live under the oppression and tyranny of their own kind (Saddam Hussein, Egypt’s Sisi, or various other dictatorships), but they won’t live under occupation by others. I don’t know why this is one of the natures of our behavior, but if you look at our history, resistance to “others” is a continuing and never ending process. It NEVER stops.
Unless you can kill, maim, or imprison EVERY SINGLE ONE of them, you’re never going to win. There’s always going to be someone who doesn’t like living under your thumb. And Israel just created more of them in 2014. How will that improve the situation for Israelis who want to be able to take the bus to school, with peace of mind. The Palestinians are like a cornered cat. If it can find a way to escape, it will, if it can’t, it’ll probably attack.
I’m not negating your childhood experience, of fear and of PTSD. But the story doesn’t stop with you. There are extensions to your story you’re overlooking. And that’s the fear and the PTSD of little Palestinian children. Whether their story matters to you or not is irrelevant. Those stories exist. And those stories will have their own impact on the lives of Israelis.
I don’t want to strike out at anyone. I want a solution to the conflict, but as long the left (see tone deaf idiot Lyra1 below) refuses to acknowledge reality, it will never stop because the actions they are undertaking are wrong and will lead to nothing.
I didn’t share my story for kicks or to explain my motivation. I shared my story to try and explain the power of mortal fear. I have no doubt that there are Palestinians, adults and children worse off than me. My point was that Israeli citizens, those in the grip of mortal fear – the only people on Earth with the power to change things – will not care about the Palestinians and will do nothing to stop or prevent their suffering as long as their own fears are not being acknowledged.
Their fears have been acknowledged. In fact, acknowledgment of that fear is now practically required every single time the issue is discussed.
Their fears were acknowledged at the White House Iftar dinner, when Obama invited the Israeli Ambassador to be the first speaker.
That’s just one, albeit arguably more significant, example.
If you google “Israel right to defend self” you get 8,990,000 hits.
If, however you google “6,240,000 results.
So your contention that their fears are not being acknowledged is just not true. Not here and certainly not in other venues.
I understand that you’re reacting out of mortal fear. And I understand that until this fear is addressed, you will use your power to hurt the other side. It’s only natural. I’m not blaming you. But I’m asking you accept reality also.
I’ll explain what I mean. You have the power to kill 500, a 1000, or 5000, or even 10,000. You don’t have the power to kill 500,000. You just don’t have that power. You might have that power in military capability, but you don’t have that power in actuality. So that means, at some point, you lashing out at the other side to satiate your mortal fear has to stop. So when it stops, what happens? What do you talk about with the other side? Israel behaves as if it can kill it’s way out of the problem, and I don’t think it can.
Hamas is obviously more determined this time than last. When this war stops. They will only use their experience to become even more determined. You want a Hezbollah in Gaza? What if they dug a super long tunnel next time and popped up in a major Israeli city? I mean, this is going to get crazier and crazier.
You’re writing from the assumption that you’re restraining yourself. You’re not restraining yourself. Nothing about Israel is about restraint. I’ve seen a video of an Israeli sniper repeatedly shooting at the legs of a downed Palestinian rock thrower. It’s a scene from out of the movie Schindler’s List, only worse, because he wasn’t shooting to kill, just to inflict pain. You people have gone mental.
And if the reality is that you can’t kill all of them, and you have to stop and talk at some point, then you have to get your head out of this mindset, that if you wished, you could kill all of them, so we should thank you for not killing all of them. You CAN’T kill all of them.
So stop acting like your mortal fear justifies your behavior. You need to develop a sense of long term fear. The long term fear should be devastating enough for you people to come to your senses.
Blech. Brain ahead of fingers. Should read,
If, however, you google Palestinian right to defend“ you get 6,240,000 results.
The fact that your demand only works unidirectionally is telling. Now I’m done with you.
Look Mr Atheist, don’t refer to me as if I’m doing the killing. I am not. I don’t care about anyone, Israeli or Palestinian, except my friends and family.
I’m trying to explain that in my opinions the actions the left has undertaken so far, in an attempt to stop the conflict are counterproductive and wrong.
Even Noam Chomsky makes somewhat similar arguments. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/02/bds-boycott-campaign-israel-noam-chomsky
@GC
What should the left be doing, in your opinion?
I don’t know. How about instead of talking over everyone’s heads with the usual “Israel is evil, blah blah blah, apartheid, blah blah blah, genocide”… Maybe reach out to people on both sides, those that can be reached – maybe children – and try to get into their heads not that you think one side or the other is evil and satanic and absolutely wrong, but that on each side are human beings.
… That every death is a tragedy. A life snuffed out before it had the chance to realize its potential.
Simple empathy. Surprisingly, something that sounds so simple apparently escapes the left. Because most of what I see in these comments is hate and the assignation of blame. Nothing else.
GC
“…….Maybe reach out to people on both sides, those that can be reached – maybe children – and try to get into their heads not that you think one side or the other is evil and satanic and absolutely wrong, but that on each side are human beings……”
Did you read the article? Greenwald compared Goebbels to Netanyahu. Greenwald is an “advocacy journalists”. There is no reaching out on this site. This site is all about distorting the IP conflict for political reasons. Many of these people are avidly opposed to a Jewish state. The word “Zionism” is used derisively and condescendingly.
“……. Craig, I feel sorry for you and all the other soulless Zionists…..”
Remember the line from the first Terminator?
“………Listen, and understand. That [anti Israel cockroach] is out there. It can’t be bargained with. It can’t be reasoned with. It doesn’t feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are [convinced of your evil]……….”
Enjoy your stay at the Intercept
Thanks.
*Respect*
It’s not an immediate solution, but are you familiar with the phrase “perfect is the enemy of good”? The assignation of blame and the futile attempt to bring about the end of the conflict RIGHT FUCKING NOW are not working. Because really, look back, has it ever worked?
Because BDS has failed. According to Wikipedia, BDS was started in July 2005. Nine years and it made zero change. Zilch. Not even one Palestinian’s life changed for the better because of it.
GC
“…….Because BDS has failed…….”
‘You are 100% correct, but there is some change in the air about boycotting Israel – especially things made in the settlements. Abbas has made some headway garnering international support through peaceful means. Patience in international politics is important so I hope he is successful and can deliver a state for Palestine. Why Abbas made up with Hamas is anyone’s guess, but it is a real disaster for the Palestinians living inn Gaza right now.
@GC:
Given your epic fantasies (see below), there is no reason to give this story any credence beyond fiction.
Lyra1, perfect example of the left’s lack of empathy.
@GC:
No it is in no way indicative of any political affiliation because I don’t have one.
It is, however; indicative of my lack of tolerance for trolls who spew Zionist propanganda…..particularly those that conjure fictional stories in an attempt to defame and/or victimize others.
Oh forgive me for assuming you were a leftist. You are an idiot so that assumption is understandable. Please see my response to chronicle below.
Well,the Jesus left sure have empathy,and those minds not clouded by tribal and gender anger in calling for death to ancient and myriad foes and or religious minded people of faith certainly do,but the rest of the neoliberal alleged left do seem mired in hate and lies,and they ally themselves with the neocon right,that AynRand descended Zionist nightmare of greed is good and pitiless law of the jungle.
Yeah, I just read it. Talk about a sick fuck. I agree. Creedence? I’m fucking laughing.
Huh, a tone deaf leftist moron calling someone else a sick fuck? You mom is bro.
@ Chronicle:
Yeah…like everyone that frequents this board was born yesterday…..
The only thing I give this troll credit for is creativity in approach.
Like I said yesterday, to chronicle, it’s idiots all the way down on the left, and you both seem to be living [mouth] breathing proof of that fact.
It takes a special kind of idiot to be incapable of differentiating between a humorous allegory of Greenwald’s pomposity and an honest attempt to contribute to a discussion. Especially on a board where changing usernames is trivial.
Morons.
Your stated reasons for being here are to troll, so this will likely be one of very few times I address you or your comments.
Hamas decided that the peace process wasn’t a very good thing for them
The Palestinians decided that the peace process wasn’t a very good thing for them. That’s why they elected Hamas which, at that time, was providing social services they couldn’t get anywhere else because the Israeli blockades denied them. That is not to say that Hamas has no vile qualities. They do.
I don’t know if you ever experienced fear for your life, living comfortably in the west, but that fear overrides everything. Fear takes priority over logic, it takes priority over feelings, it takes priority over empathy.
I understand fear. I understand that you say you no longer have empathy. That’s a shame. They say it’s one of the most important things that make us human, though I often see more empathy in animals than some people. The people in Gaza are living with way more existential threat right now, and have been, than you experienced. Yet there are still examples of compassion, lack of need for vengeance. So the fact that you have chosen to excuse yourself from the humanity of empathy is on you and you alone. For that I pity you. I think you should seek help for your PTSD. But I am eternally grateful that there still exist people in Israel and elsewhere who have not yet succumbed to the baser needs of their amygdala in the manner you so pitiably excuse.
Palestinian lives are irrelevant. The only thing that matters is destroying the threat that causes the fear.
Your uncontrolled fear will never be satiated because while you seek to eliminate the perceived source of your fear, which is entirely understandable, the Palestinians are experiencing not just fear, but actual elimination. I would ask you to consider what that must be inducing in them, but you’ve already stated that your empathy is gone and you want them all dead, irrespective of their guilt in the attacks on Israel. However, you should realize that that is called “collective punishment” and it is a war crime.
Israel has the stronger army and when that FEAR bubbles up to the surface, the army will move to neutralize the threat. You don’t have to like it, but you must accept it because this is the reality on the ground.
We don’t have to accept it at all. The wave of people who no longer accept that is growing, including in Israel. If the pressure becomes strong enough even our government will cease, or limit, its support (though that’s likely a long way off since politicians only understand punishment at the ballot box and the voting process is corrupt). In the meantime, the growth of the BDS movement will have to suffice and every day more people – and countries – are joining. How long do you think your preferred solution to Israel’s Palestinian problem will remain viable when a large part of the world cuts Israel off in the same manner they have cut Gaza off for so long?
all those examples you keep bringing up are not examples of racism and hatred, but are examples of primal, uncontrollable FEAR,
Racism, hatred and fear are not mutually exclusive. In fact fear is a primary driver of the others. But you know that, which is why your binary formula fails to convince anyone here.
I claimed I was trolling to tactically defuse the increasing violence of the comments. But right off the bat you’re missing the point. Hamas wasn’t elected to nothing in the mid 90s which is what I was describing.
If your brilliant analytical mind can’t tell the difference between humor (regardless of its quality) and an honest attempt at discussion, no, you won’t.
I stupidly hit the wrong reply button. (Yes. I know, I deserve it… do your worst)
You seem to be addressing your comments to me specifically. That is wrong. I am a neutral party and care for neither side.
Your reply is long but it can be summarized succinctly as “here are all the reason I’m right and you’re wrong” to which you’ve arrived by setting up straw-man arguments and responding to them, rather than debating the actual arguments I’ve put forth.
It’s a shame. And about trolling. Please take note of how easy it is to post under a different username. Not like I’m attached to this one. If I really was trolling this is what I’d be doing. Don’t be a moron like chronicle and Lyra1.
@ GC:
Don’t worry GC. “Morons and Idiots” will expose your trolling antics regardless of your ability to change username.
I stupidly hit the wrong reply button. (Yes. I know, I deserve it… do your worst) But here’s my response from above…
If your brilliant analytical mind can’t tell the difference between humor (regardless of its quality) and an honest attempt at discussion, no, you won’t.
What’s with this trivialization of PTSD? You “possibly” suffered from it? That’s an absurd statement, and shows you have no idea of what it is and what it does to its sufferers.
I’ve been noticing this with some frequency of late. People from Israel claiming to have PTSD. It’s become downright popular to say so. Is it possible? Sure, and probably some few do, but these claims are being made in a casual way that no real sufferer would use. Shame on the people who do this.
I suffered from severe anxiety and nightmares. I never shared this with anyone, hence I was never diagnosed. I wasn’t trying to trivialize it, I was trying to describe what I was feeling. This was a long time ago mind you.
Have you ever had the experience of raging, inconsolable anger at seeing your centuries old olive groves bulldozed to make room for illegal settlements the occupier ignores international law to steal from you? Imagine that – your beautiful home, in your family for three centuries, bulldozed to make way for boxes on the hillside where your sheep pastured and in the valley where your almond and olive trees were your entire family’s income – gone in a flash; destroyed by people who refuse to live in peace with you, or view you as equals let alone as humans, because an aberration of God gave them your land.
It is the moral responsibility of the good people of Israel to put an end to this insanity.
I was stationed in Berlin with the U.S. Air Force in 1970-72, at the time when the Bader-Meinhof gang was laying bombs on American military bases in Germany. One went off in Heidelberg at Army headquarters, and killed an officer. One was discovered about 200 yards from my barracks in Berlin and was disarmed. I saw when it was discovered. Another bomb was found outside the American high school the night of the senior prom. It too was discovered and disarmed.
My reaction was not fear. I put it out of my mind, thinking there was nothing I could do about the danger.
Imagine a dark hotel room, a symmetrical cube, lit by the waning sunlight of a summer evening coming in through a single window. A large circular bed stands in the middle, a tangle of limbs splayed on top of it – the coiled embrace of two lovers – David and Glenn.
The Snowden documents have been published in full and relief washed over both of them, a job completed, a heavy burden unloaded, anxiety transformed into pleasant calm.
Glenn is toned, with a powerful build, he looks younger than his 48, only a small paunch hinting at his true age. The psychological burden of the horrors he had witnessed as a superstar journalist had little apparent effect on his appearance. He’s lying on his side, naked, his smooth rump coated with a sheen of sweat, the powerful glutes of an athlete tensing and relaxing beneath the skin. His back bears red fingernail marks made by the strong yet passionate hands of his lover. His pubic hair is neatly trimmed, the initials “GG” bleached horizontally just above the penis increase its apparent length.
David, lying next to him, is olive skinned. His dark hair slicked with sweat, his breathing is slow but effortless with apparent satisfaction, his left arm is resting on Glenn’s waist, fingers gently teasing the top of his buttocks.
Four comfortable lounge chairs are arranged in each corner of the room. Retired general Keith Alexander, former director of the National Security Agency is sitting at the edge of the seat on one of them. He is wearing a light blue button-up shirt, large pit stains spreading beneath its arms. His pants and underwear are bunched up around his ankles, his legs splayed wide with his knees pointing down, his back and shoulders hunched forward, his brow is creased with concentration. General Alexander is masturbating furiously.
Two competing thoughts are playing out in Alexander’s mind. First, that he is powerfully aroused by the two lovers on the bed in front of him. Second, his amazement at being aroused by two men. Unable to reconcile his arousal with his sexual identity, he is also unable to climax, his motions becoming more and more violent in an effort to reach physiological satisfaction.
On the chair located in the opposite corner sits Angela Merkel. She is nude apart from a brassiere. Relaxed, a small smile of satisfaction is playing across her lips. A lit cigarette swaying between the index and middle fingers of her right hand.
In the corner to Merkel’s left sits Vladimir Putin. He’s wearing Russian style long underwear and nothing else. His left nipple recently pierced, a small trail of coagualated blood makes a visible trail on his abdomen. But this is not the confident action-man, former spy Vladimir Putin. Clearly out of his element, he looks more like an awkward teenager than a powerful proto dictator. Duck faced and not particularly attractive, his face is flushed but not from arousal. Occasionally he steals nervous sideways glances at Angela Merkel’s crotch.
Finally, across from Putin stands Edward Snowden. His emaciated frame stands in stark contrast to the two lovers on the bed in front of him. His pale face – the only part of his body visible – reflects the fading sunlight coming in through the window, giving him the appearance of a ghost, one recently departed from the world of the living as a result of starvation. He is wearing a dark hoodie, the hood pulled tight around his head. He watches the two lovers. His stare, unwavering, lingers on David, envy and desire battling for control, his pupils flashing with the first sparks of a raging forest fire.
…
Starvation and ice-cream? You think so?
I knew the NSA had the world’s largest porn collection, but I didn’t know they’d hired writers as well. Congratulations. Many of us suspected all along that the NSA was all about voyeurism. The revelation that Keith Alexander is under NSA surveillance along with Putin, Merkel and Snowden is interesting.
I didn’t know they’d hired writers as well.
I think this was just an audition. He’s already admitted he’s just here to troll and generate outrage. But this particular bait may not succeed as anticipated because most of us have been around long enough that getting our knickers in a twist over sex would take a much better effort than this.
I found this bit mildly entertaining, in a “Things we do to get laid” sort of way:
There was a time when only women were expected to go to ridiculous lengths to make themselves attractive/sexy. It’s nice to know that particular field is being leveled nowadays.
Personally I think trimmed or shaved pubes are kinda gross, but whatever makes your feel at peace with your body I guess.
And this not about sex, it’s an allegory.
There’s a certain art to being satirically ludicrous. Mel Brooks had it, Monty Python had it, but here? Nah. It also assumes that gay men are always sexy and sexual, which isn’t even a current stereotype, and in any event a satire needs some grounding in a reality. Glenn in black tie, say, conducting a music video of “Climb Ev’ry Mountain,” at the Cristo Redentor statue in Rio, performed a capella by the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence. A light touch.
It may be a cribbing from the Rude Pundit’s oeuvre, Duce, the difference being that Rudy is more original, more precisely satirical and edgier. With a dash, maybe, of Pier Paolo Pasolini, but again, unoriginal.
http://rudepundit.blogspot.com/
I imagine you’d be more dangerous
If you had a brain in that empty space
between your ears.
A definite wacko Zionist with historical hatreds protruding from his ears.Break out the Q tips!did you take writing classes from Harold Robbins?
It’s too bad that a) you don’t know what Zionist is and b) that you failed to read some of my other comments where I hinted that I’m pretty far from being a Zionist and c) wacko? I read some of your other comments, the wacko here is you friend.
“……. read some of your other comments, the wacko here is you friend……”
No argument from me.
Zionism is Jewish nationalism,and I have absolutely no problem with its existence,as I am an American nationalist.It’s been the execution of that nationalism that is the problem,as it base is lies,hate,death continual strife,and absolutely no desire or evidence of desire by Israel to make peace and recompense or enact some other negotiated just settlement.
My issue is my govt. impugns itself daily in its support and defense,has made enemies of friends throughout the region,has involved itself in disaster after disaster, wars totally backed by dual citizen moles in govt and media,and we are going down the sh*thole in honor and respect worldwide in the process.Our govt. is locked in a battle between two out of touch political parties,but when anything regarding Israeli wants or wishes,they work together like the old Politburo.
My well of anger is very very deep,but i don’t hold grudges,and if Israel became that light of nations they wish or claim to be,I’ll support them.
Signed;Proud Wacko.
An explanation:
The hero here is Edward Snowden, Glenn Greenwald just won the lottery by virtue of being approached by Snowden. Greenwald then used the Snowden documents to propel himself to international stardom and mass adulation from a cabal of proto-religious cultists, such as yourself, dear reader, that treat him as if he were the second coming. And while Greenwald is basking in your admiration in sunny Brazil, Snowden is stranded out in the [Russian] cold.
Honestly some of the Greenwald-idolization going on here makes my atheist “this is a fucking cult” sense tingle. Religion makes me sick and the comments here reek of it.
A small point of correction: Glenn enjoyed the adulation of proto-religious cultists, including myself, long before he met Ed Snowden.
A small point of style: using the word “cabal” makes you sound weird.
Ok. Correction received. Too bad I can’t edit comments. There is no doubt in my mind though that the number of his “fans” increased drastically after Snowden.
Yes, he got a boost in readership because of Snowden. But Snowden approached him for a reason. He went to Laura Poitras, because he knew Glenn had written articles about her repeated mistreatment by US customs. After establishing contact with her, he insisted that Glenn be kept in the loop. There is a reason for all this. Glenn Greenwald has a readership base that trust him implicitly. Snowden did not create Glenn Greenwald. The fact of the matter is that without a Glenn Greenwald, there would be no Edward Snowden.
G.Greenwald is both homosexual and Jewish.His pursuit of truth and facts despite that impresses me greatly,as too many people are letting stupid tribalism and gender identity politics impair (the better angels of ?)their judgement,from Islam to Russia to Israel and beyond.
>”A small point of correction: Glenn enjoyed the adulation of proto-religious cultists, including myself, long before he met Ed Snowden.”
I’ve always thought of Glenn like the Grand Wizard of Opinionated Journalism (i.e. at least he has an *opinion*) …along w/ Taibbi a few others in that increasing vocal Cabal. *and now they have $$$!
Most of the Greenwald regulars you find in comments here were there even in the Salon days. What Snowden did was heroic and brave beyond what nearly anyone would be capable of. Glenn is admired not because of what Snowden did all by himself, but for other reasons, such as his non-partisan adversarial views of the powerful, his clarity of insight, and so forth. If you think that’s wrong, no one is forcing you to stay.
Oh. I thought it was an opportunity for you to indulge your fantasies and write self-gratuitious bad dude-porn in a somewhat intrusive manner. I hate dude-porn, btw. It always includes gleaming muscles and sex that could be confused with WWF wrestling. The above seems to be no exception. Men, to stereotype horribly, just don’t understand the psychology of such things.
Anyways, as to your allegory – it might make sense if Greenwald was ignoring Snowden and personally forced him off to Russia – but he had nothing to do with that, obviously. And unlike the douchey dude bro in this story, I think he’s actually kept in contact with him as much and possible and, last I read, talked to him pretty much every day.
Your religion comment did interest me. Not to turn this comments section into a message board, but Andrew Sullivan recently wrote, when discussing a book about Montaigne:
“And here’s what we do know. We are fallible beings; we have nothing but provisional knowledge; and we will die. And this is enough. This does not mean we should give up inquiring or seeking to understand. Skepticism is not nihilism. It doesn’t posit that there is no truth; it merely notes that if truth exists, it is inherently beyond our ultimate grasp.”
Truth beyond our grasp – that depressed me, but maybe it’s true, in the broadest sense. But it made me think – there are levels of truth. Trying to logically infer some sort of Ultimate Truth always ends in contradiction, nonsense, the ol’ Incompleteness Theorem, whatever. Whether you want to end in God As Ultimate Ideal or Knowable External Reality. But the truth of experience is pretty undeniable – in fact, it might be the *only truth that’s not deniable. To me, religion is organizing large groups of people via an unexperienced truth – be it a logically consistent theory that no one can deviate from; scientism; superstition; ancient texts and revelation, etc. I actually don’t have a problem with it if people want to go 100% Belieber about someone or something based on (and modifiable through) their actual *experience, which maybe is the only truth we really have. If Greenwald has done right by and impressed a lot of people, well, good on him, that’s their experience – again, to me, this is not the element that makes religion problematic.
It always includes gleaming muscles and sex that could be confused with WWF wrestling.
Admirably addressed here (4:29 min):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FV8n_E_6Tpc
Great video, thanks Pedinska.
@Nic
Gratuitous is the only way to be heard on Internet forums. Look below, the more aggressive and the more abrasive I get, the more replies I generate. Some small percentage of those replies might then be channelled into a proper discussion. Those that can’t, well, I had fun doing it.
Isn’t the problem with religion that at some point those people organized around an idea, become convinced of the need to force others into accepting said idea? At what point Greenwald goes from journalist to messiah?
Listen, GC, now that I know you have no intention of stroking my hair and making me feel special, it’s over between us, ok? Alright fine, let’s try again, but acting out behavior is no way to get responses to your posts – it only backfires in the long run, when, in considering your meaning, people put your words in the context of ‘trollish’. Not to be preachy – I have to work at not being totally random, we all have something, right? Just something to consider.
Regarding religion – yes, people forcing their religion on others is certainly problematic after a point (I say after a point because possibly there’s a case to be made that, in human development, religion served a useful evolutionary role in group fitness). I don’t see anyone proselytizing about Greenwald anymore than they ‘preach’ about a favorite restaurant, though. It’s one thing to simply share an experience you’ve had – positive or negative – so that people can take that for what it’s worth. It’s another to use force, coercion, blackmail, dishonesty, etc., to influence the thinking of others – so long as people stick to the former and not the latter, I think that’s what honest communication is about, really.
@GC:
This does win the prize: Most tasteless and bizarre comment on this board.
And that takes some effort.
I gotta say, this totally cracked me up. I mean, other than maybe a few gay guys including David, who thinks about Glenn this way:
It is simply bizarre.
Upon which he probably said, “I think it’s your turn to do the laundry. It’s been a week.”
Where is Tombrownschooldaze? Is he/she banned? Please unban.
I am more interested in the absence of Sillyputty?
Tombrownschooldaze (aka -`jammer) has been dealing w/ health issues for some time now. I’m not certain that any ‘information systems technician’ could actually ‘ban’ him, anyways. Here’s hoping that he’s ‘back in the mix’, soon..
Cheers
Suave –
Thanks for the info on Tombrownshollodaze – I really hope he feels better soon.
Yeah, would be nice to hear from sillyputty, too.
Really…..
At least Tombrownschooldaze was talented and artistic with his poetry.
“Prosecutors Are Reading Emails From Inmates to Lawyers.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/23/nyregion/us-is-reading-inmates-email-sent-to-lawyers.html?_r=0
Rolling –
Thanks for posting that link. Is there anything even nearly “sacred” to these people? Attorney-client privilege is to fundamental to what little of the “justice system” there is left – we should all be alarmed at any attack on it.
Didja notice the one group claimed budget cuts are preventing them from separating out e-mails to attorneys; gee – how convenient.
So cheers to Judge Irizarry and boos to the other judge and those prosecutors and law enforcement folks who don’t respect constitutional rights.
Good article in the New York Times explaining Hamas’s desperate situation in Gaza prior to the war (ignored by the ELWM – Extreme Left Wing Media)).
http://www.nytimes.com/…/hamas-gambled-on-war-as-its…
[snip]
.. oh wait, you stated “prior”. You must be referring to..
The ‘wall’ that cages them in.
Their daily ration of electricity (12 hours).
Their rationed water that has to be boiled before consumed.
Their International Airport that they’re not allowed to fly out of.
Their numerous ports that they’re not allowed to sail from.
Their ‘airspace’ which is controlled by the country who built the ‘wall’.
Their….
ps – I’m still waiting for you to provide ANY evidence that makes Hamas accountable in the deaths of the three teenagers.
Gracias, mi amigo.
“……..As academics, public figures and activists witnessing the intended genocide of 1.8 million Palestinians living in the Gaza Strip, we call for a ceasefire with Israel only if conditioned on an end to the blockade and the restoration of basic freedoms that have been denied to the people for more than seven years…….”
This is from Mona’s post below. Don’t you just hate the consequences of voting? You vote for an internationally recognized terrorist organization, and look what happens. You vote for a charter of continuous war. Of course, those signers of the Palestinian Declaration of Independence could have taken those same demands to Hamas and asked for a chance to vote again – like in a real democracy.
There is no direct evidence yet for Hamas’s direct involvement in the kidnapping and murder of the teens, but the accused were or are members of Hamas. In addition, as outlined in the New York Times, Hamas was in a desperate situation having governed poorly for several years and lost support from allies in Morsi (overthrown) and Assad (brutal civil war). In addition, Iran has been crippled by sanctions and their support for Assad.
Finally, Hamas praised the kidnappings (while Abbas denounced them) and after the teens were found murdered, Hamas said nothing. This is after Hamas formed the new unity government with Abbas. My feeling is that they were probably behind it, but if they weren’t, they certainly didn’t oppose it knowing the consequences that we are witnessing today.
Finally, you gotta love that reference to “genocide”. It’s such a loaded political term.
Thanks suave
First off, political opinions should never be a justification for the killing of innocents who hold those opinions. I realize you didn’t exactly say that, but there was an op-ed by Thane Rosenbaum that did say that. If you think about it, that’s the worldview of the worst dictators in history.
Now, there must obviously be a reason why Palestinians support and voted for Hamas. It’s not like if they had voted for someone else, they’d be less oppressed today. Palestinians have attempted peaceful resistance at times, and it has gotten them nowhere.
Actually, I think that Abbas has taken the right approach by bringing the problems of the Palestinians to the UN and the international community – peacefully. It’s a slow process, but I think it has begun to gather some momentum (BDS). We will just have to wait and see what changes come about from this war. I know that when it comes to Hamas, getting concessions out of Israel will be difficult.
“My feeling is that they were probably behind it, but if they weren’t, they certainly didn’t oppose it knowing the consequences that we are witnessing today.”
Paraphrasing your words gives the idea that keeping adversary silence in such events should be basis for military operations indiscriminately targeted at both civilians and opposing group. If keeping unfavorable opinion is crime which should be immediately punished, then there are no much differences between Israel and Nazi Germany.
Carrying out the air and ground attacks based on “feelings”, rather certain, tangible an undeniable facts, at biased judgment is the war crimes, and at fair and unbiased judgment, is genocide.
“………Carrying out the air and ground attacks based on “feelings”, rather certain, tangible an undeniable facts, at biased judgment is the war crimes, and at fair and unbiased judgment, is genocide……”
Nothing about this operation has anything to do with genocide. Nothing. And the situation escalated after the three Israeli teens and the Palestinian were found murdered. One thing led to another. That’s why there is a war here. Both sides don’t want to give in. Hamas turned down a cease fire so this is more about changing the political conditions in Gaza i.e., ending the embargo etc.
Go Hamas,go Hezbollah!Fight the power!
Apparently, this grotesque of a prime minister is giving all world leaders nightmares. He must be bullying them with wars and attacks.
And since international law has become a joke lately, world leaders must be afraid that Israel go and follow through on their threats by carrying terrorist attacks beyond Israel.
So there is Hope?
What do you call refugees fleeing from their refuge to seek refuge in U N refugee shelters?
Fuk’d.
Max Blumenthal piece, with confirmation from NBC executive that Glenn Greenwald’s account of Ayman Mohyeldin’s removal was right.: ‘Witch Hunt': Fired MSNBC Contributor Speaks Out on Suppression of Israel-Palestine Debate
Read the whole thing: http://www.alternet.org/media/witch-hunt-fired-msnbc-contributor-speaks-out-networks-witch-hunt-and-suppression-israel?page=0%2C0
Holy mother of Mona! . ummm, a few more of these and the entire MSM edifice of ruling class journalism might actually start to crumble. But I’m not holding my breath. Anyway, thanks. I needed that this morning. A hot cup of truth and a sizzling side of backfired makes my day.
Nate will probably be here shortly to tell us that the statement of an NBC producer is not sufficient evidence of what goes on at NBC News.
Hogwash!! According to this intellectual, they’re only here to ‘critique’ the NSA revelations, “and nothing more”!!
ht`p-ska
Open Letter from Gazan Civil Society:
No ceasefire without justice for Gaza
As academics, public figures and activists witnessing the intended genocide of 1.8 million Palestinians living in the Gaza Strip, we call for a ceasefire with Israel only if conditioned on an end to the blockade and the restoration of basic freedoms that have been denied to the people for more than seven years.
Our foremost concerns are not only the health and safety of the people in our communities, but also the quality of their lives – their ability to live free of fear of imprisonment without due process, to support their families through gainful employment, and to travel to visit their relatives and further their education.
These are fundamental human aspirations that have been severely limited for the Palestinian people for more than 47 years, but that have been particularly deprived from residents of Gaza since 2007. We have been pushed beyond the limits of what a normal person can be expected to endure.
A living death
Charges in the media and by politicians of various stripes that accuse Hamas of ordering Gaza residents to resist evacuation orders, and thus use them as human shields, are untrue. With temporary shelters full and the indiscriminate Israeli shelling, there is literally no place that is safe in Gaza.
Likewise, Hamas represented the sentiment of the vast majority of residents when it rejected the unilateral ceasefire proposed by Egypt and Israel without consulting anyone in Gaza. We share the broadly held public sentiment that it is unacceptable to merely return to the status quo – in which Israel strictly limits travel in and out of the Gaza Strip, controls the supplies that come in (including a ban on most construction materials), and prohibits virtually all exports, thus crippling the economy and triggering one of the highest poverty and unemployment rates in the Arab world.
To do so would mean a return to a living death.
Unfortunately, past experience has shown that the Israeli government repeatedly reneges on promises for further negotiations, as well as on its commitments to reform.
Likewise, the international community has demonstrated no political will to enforce these pledges. Therefore, we call for a ceasefire only when negotiated conditions result in the following:
Freedom of movement of Palestinians in and out of the Gaza Strip.
Unlimited import and export of supplies and goods, including by land, sea and air.
Unrestricted use of the Gaza seaport.
Monitoring and enforcement of these agreements by a body appointed by the United Nations, with appropriate security measures.
Each of these expectations is taken for granted by most countries, and it is time for the Palestinians of Gaza to be accorded the human rights they deserve.
Signatures:
Akram Habeeb, Assistant Professor of American Literature, Islamic University of Gaza (IUG)
Mona El-Farra, Vice President and Health Chair of the Palestinian Red Crescent Society
Ramy Abdu PhD, Chairman of the Euro-mid Observer
Abdullah Alsaafin, Palestinian Writer/journalist
Ali Alnazli, Businessman
Adel Awadallah, Head of the Scientific Research Council
Hanine Hassan, Graduate Research Assistant
Sheren Awad, Journalist
Yahia Al-Sarraj, Associate Professor of Transportation, IUG
Tawfik Abu Shomar, Writer and political analyst
Hasan Owda, Businessman
Ibrahim AlYazji, Businessman
Walid Al Husari, Chair, Gaza Chamber of Commerce
Nael Almasri, Dentist
Wael El-Mabhouh, Political researcher
Rami Jundi, Political researcher
Ashraf Mashharawi, Filmmaker
Mohammad Alsawaf, Journalist
Hasan Abdo, Writer and political analyst
Kamal El Shaer, Political researcher
Omar Ferwana, Dean of Medicine Faculty, IUG
Iyad I. Al-Qarra, Journalist, Palestine newspaper
Musheir El-Farra, Palestinian activist and author
Khalil Namrouti, Associate Professor in Economics, IUG
Moein Rajab, Professor in Economics, Al-Azhar University – Gaza
Basil Nasser, Planning advisor
Hani Albasoos, Associate Professor in Political Science, IUG
Arafat Hilles, Assistant Professor, Al-Quds Open University
Imad Falouji, Head of Adam Center for Dialogue of Civilizations
Moin Naim, Writer and political analyst
Yousri Alghoul, Author
Mohammad Jayyab, Editor of Gaza Journal of Economics
Mousa Lubbad, Lecturer in Finance, Al-Aqsa University
Iskandar Nashwan, Assistant Professor in Accounting, Al-Aqsa University
Shadi AlBarqouni, Graduate Research Assistant
Adnan Abu Amer, Head of Political Department, Al-Umma University
Wael Al Sarraj, Assistant Professor in Computer Science, IUG
Said Namrouti, Lecturer in Human Resource Management, IUG
Khaled Al-Hallaq, Assistant Professor in Civil Engineering, IUG
Asad Asad, Vice Chancellor for Administrative Affairs, IUG
Hazem Alhusari, Lecturer in Finance, Al-Aqsa University
Shadi AlBarqouni, Graduate Research Assistant
Deya’a Kahlout, Journalist, Al-Araby newspaper
Raed Salha, Assistant Professor in Geography, IUG
Sameeh Alhadad, Businessman
Tarek M. Eslim, CEO, Altariq Systems and Projects
Sami Almalfouh PhD, Senior engineer
Fayed Abushammalah, Journalist
Fadel Naeim, Chairman of Palestine Physicians Syndicate
Zeyad Al-Sahhar, Associate Professor in Physics , Al-Aqsa University
Iyad Abu Hjayer, Director, Palestinian Center for Democracy and Conflict Resolution
Wael Al-Daya, Associate Professor in Finance, IUG
Younis Eljarou, Head of the Red Crescent Society for the Gaza Strip
Donia ElAmal Ismail, Head of the Creative Women Association
Zeinab Alghonemi, Head of Women for Legal Consulting Association
Amjad AlShawa, Palestinian Nongovernmental Organizations Network (PNGO)
Mohsen Abo Ramadan, Head of Palestinian Nongovernmental Organziations Network (PNGO)
Abed Alhameed Mortaja, Assistant Professor of Linguistics, IUG
Talal Abo Shawesh , Head of Afaq Jadeeda Association
Zohair Barzaq, Red Crescent Society for the Gaza Strip
Marwan Alsabh, Red Crescent Society for the Gaza Strip
Ghassan Matar, Red Crescent Society for the Gaza Strip
Rania Lozon, Writer
Ashraf Saqer, IT Specialist
Samir AlMishal, Mishal Cultural Centre
Jamila Sarhan, Independant Commission for Human Rights
Jalal Arafat, Union of Agricultrual Work Committees
Khalil Abu Shammala, Aldameer Association for Human Rights
Jamila Dalloul, Association Head of Jothor ElZaiton
Maha Abo Zour, Psychologist
Psychologist Ferdous Alkatari
Yousef Awadallah, Health Work Committee
Yousef Alswaiti, Al-Awda Hospital Director
Taysir Alsoltan, Head of Health Work Committees
Taghreed Jomaa, Union of Palestinian Women’s Committees
Imad Ifranji, Journalist, Alquds TV
Jehal Alaklouk, Activist
Adel Alborbar, Boycott Committee
Hatem AbuShaban, Board of Trustees of Al-Azhar University – Gaza
Saleh Zaqout, Secretary of the Red Crescent Society for the Gaza Strip
Mohammed Alsaqqa, Lawyer
Nihad Alsheikh Khalil, Professor of Modern and Contemporary History, IUG
Mohsen Alafranji, Lecturer at Media Department, IUG
Nedal Farid, Dean of Business Faculty, Al-Aqsa University
Salem Helles, Dean of Commerce Faculty, IUG
Ahmad Ali PhD, Economic Analysis
Raed M. Zourob PhD, Head of the Department of Preventive Medicine, Ministry of Health
Mosheer Amer, Professor of Lingusitics, IUG
Moheeb Abu Alqumboz, Lecturer
Fatma Mukhalalati, Supreme Court judge
Fahmi Alnajjar, Supreme Court judge
When a people as a whole, have to BEG for the world to see the truth of their situation and day to day lives under the daily tyranny of an occupation, it speaks volumes of the legal imperialism that supports the occupier. On the other hand, I believe, given time, most American taxpayers will begin to understand they have NO control over how their hard earned money is spent, and will come to resent their government handing over billions upon billions to a nation that has been holding another nation hostage for decades, notwithstanding perpetrating war crimes in the name of national defense. Although…they learned well from their legal imperialism master..the US Congress.
Removing the funding to Israel was also prophesied in the Bible, among other things.
Yo, Rapturite..
Please provide the scripture in question.
Much appreciated..
Why do you call me a “Rapturite”? Do you think I believe the dogma that leads American christians into apostasy? Why is it that the vast majority of people at this website are quick to assume the worst in others? A people will always take on the persona of its leadership. This reflects poorly on Glenn Greenwald. FYI, I don’t believe Jesus is coming back to the land of Jerusalem. The Christians who do are misguided by preachers who want to sit in lofty places before government leaders. Doing such as that makes them false prophets and tools for being used for false purposes. But why would I cast pearls before those who do the same thing for different reasons? Both sides are filled with hypocrites who lie against the truth for unrighteous gain. Why share truths just to see it trampled by deceivers? It saddens me that this is the kind of persons Mr. Greenwald and The Intercept attracts. I’m sure somewhere out there there is an unbiased journal. I’ll keep searching for it. In the meantime, I will have to continue to separate the bias from the truth. Damn, it’s exhausting! Better that than bury my head in the sand like so many media-worshipping idolaters.
Yo, Toots..
How about you provide a reference for the ‘scripture’ which you stated was “in the Bible”. Either that, or politely step off of your rickety soapbox..
Cheers.
Why would I give Israel’s enemy ammunition to use against them? You want it? Read the bible yourself.
So basically what you are stating is.. “I can’t provide you with the reference requested, because I was bloviating out of my swollen arse”. Fair enough.
Don’t let that ‘doggie-door’ hit you on the way out of here, Sweet Cheeks!!
Haaretz: Right-wing rabbi’s ruling: Israel may totally destroy Gaza if necessary
‘Deterrent measures to exterminate the enemy’ are allowed in some cases, Rabbi Dov Lior writes.
But I do not agree with this:
Dov Lior is popular but vile. Still, there ought not be a ban on his repugnant opinions.
Anyway, rest of it here: http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/.premium-1.606688?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
The fact that a man of God, no matter the religion, could ever bring himself to call for the extermination of a people, show us how religious extremists taint themselves, religion in general and warp the humanity of those who follow them.
I agree with you that this speech should never be suppressed. Suppression only hides the infection, allowing it to grow under cover. This vileness should always be revealed so that decent people – of all or no faith – can confront it and fight for everyone’s humanity.
Off the top of my head,I don’t recall any other religions leaders calling for the extermination of a people,can anyone?
Gazan children, most likely to be killed, live in constant horror and fear. Disturbing (but no dead kids) photo: https://twitter.com/intifada/status/491737065298857984/photo/1
A full copy of a letter written by Mads Gilbert MD PhD?., a Norwegian volunteer physician working in Gaza.
“The last night was extreme. The “ground invasion” of Gaza resulted in scores and carloads with maimed, torn apart, bleeding, shivering, dying – all sorts of injured Palestinians, all ages, all civilians, all innocent.”
It is short, but powerful. See: http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/07/22/monsters/
Complementary dialogue by Democracy Now with full report by Sharif Abdel Kouddous.
http://www.democracynow.org/2014/7/22/a_place_of_indescribable_loss_as
Israel-remember, karma is a bitch.
This doc is a great hero along with his colleagues.
According to Jonathan Spyer from the Global Research in International Affairs (GLORIA) Center:
“………”More than 700 people killed in Syria on Thursday and Friday, in the bloodiest two days of the conflict until now. A woman was executed for adultery in Raqqa. None of the above were killed by Jews, however. This presumably explains the total lack of interest by the western media, (and of course by the Islamist/far-left crowd who have been attacking synagogues and so on in Europe in recent days.)”…..”
Nothing brings the radical left out like the IP conflict. But when it comes to wars elsewhere where Israel and the US are not involved, there is a strange acquiescence to the murder of women and children – and even Muslims. The fact that in two days of fighting in Syria, more were killed than in two weeks in Gaza just shows the level of apathy to conflicts where the Jewish state is not involved. Over 170,000 people have now been killed in Syria. It’s more or less selective indifference to certain conflicts defined by narrow political interests. At the Intercept, some Muslims mean more than others. The “lucky” Muslims fight the Jews.
The Tamil Tigers completely understand the selective indifference of the fringe left (and many world leaders). They were completely wiped out with nary an objection internationally. The Sri Lankan army under the cover of the IP conflict (Operation Cast Lead) simply wiped out the terrorist organization who hid within a civilian population – a very similar situation to the one in Gaza. Thousands of innocent civilians were killed. Oh well, who really cares?
Thank you! Now that is newsworthy! Does it get your ire up to hear about important news that the news agencies aren’t telling you? It does me!
The indifference to the suffering of war victims from conflicts that don’t happen to involve Jews is really frightening – but par for the course.
I agree. I also now realize that my liberal news sources aren’t serving me either. I didn’t of any of those tonight. Thanks again. Good night.
You are making some incredible generalizations!!
Baseless assumptions.
That’s what I’m known for – baseless assumptions.
“…….. Does it get your ire up to hear about important news that the news agencies aren’t telling you?…..”
Especially this one.
And here comes Craig, with yet another round of whataboutery. As has already been explained to you many, many times, we in the U.S. are complicit in Israel’s original and ongoing crimes against the Palestinians.
We Single Israel Out Because We in the West Are Shamefully Complicit in Its Crimes. Link: http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/mehdi-hasan/israel-gaza_b_5591954.html
“…….As has already been explained to you many, many times, we in the U.S. are complicit in Israel’s original and ongoing crimes against the Palestinians…….”
Jesus Mona. We are complicit in crimes all over the world. We are responsible for a coup against the elected government in Ukraine. We support the rebels in Syria. We militarize the Saudis who crushed the Bahrainian revolution. We destroyed Libya and Iraq. We have devastating sanctions against Iran because of their peaceful nuclear program. We are bombing in Yemen, Somalia, Afghanistan and Pakistan – and that’s just this century.
And you are worried about giving a few weapons to the Jews?
Tut, tut Craig. You didn’t read the post I linked. And, um, the author addresses that “few weapons” thing:
There’s more. Read the whole thing.
“………We are complicit…..”
You have posted that twice now (Mehdi Hasan). Both times it said the exact same thing. I won’t go into Hasan’s past. Suffice it to say he supports the one state solution and has made some really idiotic, racists statements in the past. He has little credibility as a critic of Israel.
The US began military aid to Israel because of the Arab intent to annihilate the Jewish state in 1967 and 1973. Before that, there were no settlements in the West Bank and Jordan occupied the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Israel was confined to the green line i.e., the 1949 armistice line. After the Arab wars, military aid from the US kept the balance of power in Israel’s favor and served as a deterrent to Arab aggression – to this day. The US also supplies aid to Egypt because they signed the Camp David Accords in 1979 which has helped keep peace in the region. I support military aid to Israel. Most Americans support military aid to Israel because Israel is located in a hostile environment – the Arab world. Who cares what Hasan thinks about US military aid to Israel?
Yes, the US protected Israel at the UN by vetoing 42 resolutions, but at least some of the resolutions were driven by hostility to Israel. Israel has a right to protect herself and many of the resolutions condemning Israel vetoed by the US protected military operations like Cast Lead (three), operations in Lebanon (seven) and for the occupation of the Golan Heights (one) which was returned to Egypt. One resolution concerned Israel building the wall (separation barrier) for protection. Israel has every right to construct a wall to deter Palestinian terrorism which indiscriminately targeted civilians (most on buses or in markets). The second Intifada was started by Arafat and killed 1000 Israelis and 5500 Arab Palestinians. It was an offer of peace rejected with violence. Israel pulled out of Gaza and – like today – it became a haven for Palestinian terrorism. Hamas has a racist charter which calls for the destruction of Israel. The Palestinians voted a terrorist organization to power which calls for the destruction of Israel. It is hamas that is responsible for much of the hostility between the Palestinians and Jews. Launching rockets into Israel are acts of war. 10,000-20,000 have been launched since 2000 – principally by Hamas. The ISIS is showing clearly exactly how dangerous the philosophy of Sunni Islamists can be to democracy, freedom and peace.
In addition, the UN has been hostile toward Israel passing a racist resolution equating Zionism and racism. It took 15 years to overturn that injustice. The UN sponsored Durban conference on racism in 2000 was, in fact, a racist conference singling Israel out. This was ignored by the racist Hasan. The UN has singled out Israel on numerous occasions driven by racism and antisemitism. The hostility directed at Israel by the UN has hurt the credibility of that body – and the resolutions (some of which are legitimate) which were passed vetoed by the US..
Hasan states:
“……..Trying to hide Israel’s crimes against the Palestinians behind, say, Syria’s barrel bombs, China’s forced labour camps or Russia’s persecution of gays won’t wash. After all, on what grounds did we “single out” apartheid South Africa in the 1980s for condemnation and boycott?…..”
Sorry, Hasan would love to compare Israel to Syria and South Africa, but it is simply not true. That’s the classic lie promoted by the fringe left – comparing Israel to Apartheid South Africa. Israel isn’t an apartheid state. Israel is a democracy. It was the LAWS of South Africa which segregated people on the basis of race. This doesn’t exist in Israel. Israel is not using barrel bombs nor did Israel start a war by murdering hundreds of people marching for DEMOCRACY in their own country. These are completely different situations than in Israel – and they are not comparable. By using these examples, Hasan distorts the situation in Palestine. Hasan attempts to simplify the conflict by comparing Israel to some of the worst countries in the world – a classic ploy by the extreme left. In this case, he is appealing to the left.
Israel has every right to live free of terrorism. On the other hand, I don’t agree with Israel’s continual settlement building which prevents Palestinian right to self-determination. In addition, this has done more damage to Israel’s international standing than anything else. Only Hamas’s continual war against Israel prevents greater action taken against settlement construction in the West bank.
That we are complicit is pure bullshit, Mona. Sorry, but I really don’t have time to continue.
Thanks.
The it is too bad you didn’t use the time you had to address the substantive points Hasan provided, rather than waving your hands with complaints about the author’s “leftism” and on like that. And your slanted setting forth of history also does not undo any of the FACTS that Hasan recited.
Every time you engage in whataboutery, Craig, I shall post Hasan’s piece. You don’t like his answers and facts, but critically you don’t rebut them; because you cannot.
The IP conflict has been ongoing. It’s been out of the news for awhile until children got murdered. Similarly, I did not know Kiev was bombing it’s Russian separatists anymore until they took down a commercial jet. Both those incidents are too sensational to have brushed under the rug. You know how perky the U.S. media likes to be. Constant conflict becomes ordinary after a while. The media feels it needs to distract us so we feel like shopping. After all, what are we if we’re not shopping? GW Bush told us to go shopping and don’t worry about the war on terror. (I’m rolling my eyes at my disgust for the media.)
Oh well, letting the dog back inside and going to sleep now.
Well,as the Syrian war is an extension of our divide and conquer strategy,the MSM probably don’t want any more queries about our terrible foreign policy disasters,there and in Ukraine,in Libya,in Gaza,in Egypt,in Iraq,in Afghanistan,in Georgia,in Somalia,in Nigeria,in the Phillippines and further beyond.
Israel and Zionists are so *finally starting to lose the PR war. The **New York Times** covers and posts video of what appears to be an Israeli sniper shooting dead a young Gazan man searching the rubble for his family — his family actually would learn of his death by watching this very video on YouTube.
Moreover, this is not the first time that recently the **NYT** has cited and quoted Ali Abunimah of the Electronic Intifada. #seachangeinprogress.
Go here: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4548184,00.html
@ -Mona-:
Your link is a duplicate of the one you posted below regarding fortification of the haspara brigades.
Yea. Somehow it was posted there by mistake. So I reposted where I wanted to post – at the top. The Moderator can delete the one attached to Mona.
Reposting with correct link:
————————–
Israel and Zionists are so *finally starting to lose the PR war. The **New York Times** covers and posts video of what appears to be an Israeli sniper shooting dead a young Gazan man searching the rubble for his family — his family actually would learn of his death by watching this very video on YouTube.
Moreover, this is not the first time that recently the **NYT** has cited and quoted Ali Abunimah of the Electronic Intifada. #seachangeinprogress.
Go here: http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/07/23/world/middleeast/palestinian-family-finds-missing-son-in-youtube-video-of-his-shooting.html?smid=tw-NYTOpenSource&seid=auto&_r=1&referrer=
@ -Mona-:
Far cry from the privileged hill position of the Israeli “picnic” artillery watchers.
Shot by a sniper 3 times and left to lie in the remnants of rubble that was once his home. Obviously a distressed non-combatant. Family finds out about his death on you-tube….which has incidentally, secured the video by requiring a log-in to view. Shameful and very sad.
It is encouraging that the New York Times reported it. Although I gave up on them along time ago along with the other American MSM telecom, newspaper, and periodical outlets.
Keep posting though….you might change my mind with articles like this.
You sound overjoyed, as if anyone winning a PR war is a good thing. If Israel losing, then who is winning? Catch 22. Now you can’t get around that your side is manipulating the media and is beginning to win it.
Taking notes, Glen?
That said, I think Mona has made my point. I’ll call it a night now.
I am.
Honestly Mona you are one insufferable blowhard. “finally starting to lose the PR war” please… Israel was never winning the PR war. As I said below, a good number of Palestinians supporters here and elsewhere are not exactly paragons of human intelligence (maybe of parrot intelligence though).
If we assume for a moment that Israel’s mythical “hasbara brigades” were so effective in the past, that would mean that at least half of your fellow-travellers would be fighting for Israel. And yet.. and yet this comments sections is overwhelmingly pro-Palestinian.
So so arrogant…
Facts supported by links that document Israeli govt sources are not referred to as “mythical” by reasonable people. Tho a member of the hasbara brigades could be expected to say that.
I don’t care if they exist or not – accusing someone who disagrees with you of being a member of some nefarious brigade is typical pro-Palestinian smear tactic – the fact of the matter is that they are not very effective, else these comments would be overflowing with pro-Israel sentiment.
Typical Zionist arrogance,and if you were so smart,you’d have people thinking you are decent moral people,which is not evident at all lately.(Same with US of course)
Jewish diaspora readers: A rabbi demands you perform your biblical duty to join the hasbara brigades: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4548184,00.html
“He is currently doing a PhD focused on learning how people can develop purpose and meaning in life.”
So arrogant… Let’s assume, Mona, you’re smarter than average, which may or may not be true. You posit essentially that not only are you smarter, but everyone who agrees with you is smarter than average, while everyone who disagrees is less so.
I mean, you seem passionate almost to the point of being rabid, refusing to hear anything threatens the neat division you’ve built in your mind – Palestinians = good noble savages, Israelis = evil, colonialist land usurpers. Anything that threatens to disturb that neat division is labeled as “hasbara”. But that mythical “hasbara” you keep referring to seems pretty weak and ineffective because, frankly, some pro-Palestinians in these comments are not exactly paragons of human intelligence, and yet they seem to not be affected.
I very seldom reply to ad hominems, non-sequiturs, and the like, save to point out that they are such.
Neither my intelligence nor my personality are the topic under discussion. I do not “defend myself” from irrelevant nonsense.
And yet roughly half of your numerous comments to Greenwald’s op ed piece above are little more than thinly veiled attempts to portray anyone who disagrees with you as either brainwashed fools, or thralls in service of some mysterious propaganda machine.
Thinly veiled is in the eye of the beholder. Personally, I think Mona, in between posting every truth she can, is being inundated by shithead trolls, idiot, morons, the AIPAC and Milpropaganda crew and dickheads like you GC. Meanwhile, you offer nothing but tripe.
I don’t think anyone’s saying you’re dumber, or even less principled. But you are clearly unconvincing. The are certain facts about Palestinians that are not under dispute, such as the fact that they live under oppressive conditions imposed onto them externally. Now, what’s the principle that allows an oppressor to exercise “self-defense” against the oppressed? Under what principle is indefinite collective oppression of a population or region permissible?
I dare you to find an example of me denying this fact.
Well then…what the fuck is your problem?
Barack Obama is a fucking coward.
He won’t stand up to Wall Street.
He won’t stand up to Qatar or Saudi Arabia.
He won’t stand up to Israel.
He won’t stand up to the Pentagon.
He won’t stand up to the CIA or the NSA or the FBI.
He won’t stand up to Big Pharma, Big Insurance, Big Energy or Big Agribusiness.
He’s a fucking coward. Or he thinks all these dubious actors are doing the right thing.
Either way, he can go fuck himself.
He won’t stand up to fuck himself.
Really? You’d think a narcissistic sociopath like him would jump at the chance.
Well,he’s certainly standing up for Israeli provocation eh?He is a pathetic individual,with a warped view of reality,history,human nature, and international politics.
Maybe he’s a coward. Or maybe those are things he doesn’t actually oppose.
The penultimate line in my above post addresses that misgiving.
Sorry, I was dazzled by the repetitions of ‘he won’t stand up to’.
A coward is someone who considers the consequences of their actions. Like many things we despise, it is actually a survival trait. So every generation is destined to be a little more cowardly than the one that preceded it. The meek shall inherit the earth.
My God, Cindy. He is a fucking Democrat. How many times have I encouraged you, cajoled you and even threatened you to vote Republican? Obama would fuck up a two car funeral. In my mind, there is only one world leader dumber than he is – Putin.
So next time vote for the party funded by Sheldon Adelson, OK?
And here’s me thinking you didn’t have a sense of humor… Republicans seem as dopey and frightened as Democrats to me, FWIW.
Which these days means he is Republican Lite.
Putin is da man!he mean what he say,and say what he means.
If you replaced for instead of to you would have neolibcon Zionist talking points.With the same exclamation at the end.
There is no need to generalize. It is well documented by the most respected human rights groups that Israel intentionally and knowingly targets civilians.
See these two sources of documentation:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/facts-all-us-citizens-need-to-know-about-israel-and-palestine/5391043
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/07/wants-attention-hamas-rockets.html
Spinning the spinning propaganda:
The stress of having to live in those bunkers must be getting to him, or perhaps Mrs Bibi?
Living in bunkers? Hardly. He’s been popping up all over media, especially CNN.
Ok, he’s worried that no international flights will affect the summer holidays of the chosen children?
Plucky little Israel is “defending itself” by firing on the Al-Jazeera office in Gaza, and manhandling an Arabic reporter reporting from Israel for the BBC.
WaPo: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/07/22/bbc-arabic-reporter-attacked-on-air-outside-gaza/
From Jewish Voice for Peace, a photo of a brave Jewish woman in NYC: https://twitter.com/zbahs/status/491633188444577792/photo/1
Good on her! No one should be silent.
It says she was reading the names of the dead in Gaza. I expect the NYPD booked her for violating those people’s privacy. The US government is big on privacy rights, in certain instances.
Did anyone else catch Mona on MSNBC’s ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES tonight? It felt like her, but she had a different name. Same spirit, different shell, perhaps.
@Kelly:
Your long line of comments down thread about Glenn Greenwald being your favorite journalist didn’t make sense if you’ve been reading Glenn Greenwald. He has always written the opposite of what you lovingly refer to as your personal definition “objective journalism.” I suggested a link for you to look into during that exchange which went deeply into the subject. It didn’t seem that you opened the link, much less read what was written there.
One of Glenn Greenwald’s journalistic heroes is the late David Halberstam. Halberstam also was pretty much the one hundred and eighty degree opposite of how your definition of “objective journalism” should be performed. How do you explain being a fan of Glenn’s work when you don’t seem to have a clue what Glenn’s work has been about for the last nearly ten years?
It’s quite possible she’s an enlistee in the hasbara brigades. Approaching us here in a way she thinks would establish bona fides.
According to Jonathan Spyer from the Global Research in International Affairs (GLORIA) Center:
“………”More than 700 people killed in Syria on Thursday and Friday, in the bloodiest two days of the conflict until now. A woman was executed for adultery in Raqqa. None of the above were killed by Jews, however. This presumably explains the total lack of interest by the western media, (and of course by the Islamist/far-left crowd who have been attacking synagogues and so on in Europe in recent days.)”…..”
Nothing brings the radical left out like the IP conflict. But when it comes to wars elsewhere where Israel and the US are not involved, there is a strange acquiescence to the murder of women and children – and even Muslims. The fact that in two days of fighting in Syria, more were killed than in two weeks in Gaza just shows the level of apathy to conflicts where the Jewish state is not involved. Over 170,000 people have now been killed in Syria. It’s more or less selective indifference to certain conflicts defined by narrow political interests. At the Intercept, some Muslims mean more than others. The “lucky” Muslims fight the Jews.
The Tamil Tigers completely understand the selective indifference of the fringe left (and many world leaders). They were completely wiped out with nary an objection internationally. The Sri Lankan army under the cover of the IP conflict (Operation Cast Lead) simply wiped out the terrorist organization who hid within a civilian population – a very similar situation to the one in Gaza. Thousands of innocent civilians were killed. Oh well, who really cares?
I’m not quite sure why this posted here Mona. I’ll repost at the top.
The commenting software is acting up. Have had same problem of weird placing of comment.
I fell in love with Glenn’s fearless reporting on the NSA files. Notice, I said with his reporting. I don’t worship news mediums the way many others do. I move around allot, to see and compare opposing views. I don’t like one sided, partisan politics. I have seen Glenn on DemocracyNow! before then, and I think maybe on Bill Moyers too. I have heard him express the need to give voice to the voiceless which I find to be a noble cause. I just disagree that doing so requires one to lose their journalistic integrity. I had never seen him do that, maybe because he is usually promoting his books which are topically his view. That is an entirely different avenue than reporting on current, as in right this hour, news stories. I am disappointed to see his comparison between the sayings of the two men cited above because it alludes to a similar spirit, when the two men were commenting under different circumstances. It is what I might call a kind of loosey goosey commentary. Although Glen says he is not equating the circumstances, I would hope by now he realizes the need to choose his words more carefully especially since he is now a more recognizable commentator on the world scene. I do not ask him, nor would I, to change who he is at his core. When being asked directly for his opinion, an opinion should be given. If it turns out that he thinks it is really okay to overlook context, so be it. His good reputation will wane then. Giving voice to the voiceless doesn’t require suspending the complete story. It doesn’t even require that equal time be given to both sides on every given story. People like honesty. I was attracted to that in Glen. I liked his forthrightness when msm tried to back him into a corner and he didn’t back down defending edward snowden. But, for any reporter to portray Israel as evil as Mona says it is, isn’t news. Facts make news– that is facts presented in honest context. It’s okay to not like Netanyahu. I never liked him myself. I personally agree with Shimon Peres that there can never be peace in Israel. Even when they presume to have it under a two or three state solution, it will only be an illusion, a ticking time bomb waiting to go off. That said, Israel is defending itself every bit as much as the liberal left thinks only the Palestinians are entitled to do. That is blatant hypocrisy that denies the whole history of the Canaanite region. Israel was wrong for building Jerusalem with bloodshed. And Palestine is wrong for failing to recognize that the same entity which led Israel out of captivity to a place to call home, had also saved them from being eliminated by Crete.
When I listen to the pro-Palestinian supporters, they remind me of two men of the same faith arguing vehemently with each other over who suffered more. One of them was an African-American and the other was a Native American. They were both incapable of hearing the other’s claim to injustice because they got caught up in their pride of, unbelievable as it sounds, of having been persecuted more than anyone else. At least Israel acknowledges the suffering of the Palestinians and does not blame all of them, but just their leadership who wants to exterminate Israel. Nor does Israel deny the suffering of Palestinians at Israel’s powerful hand. A wise man, a spiritual leader once said to be patient with them because “even one of their own poet’s said: All Cretans are liars.” Nothing has changed there for thousands of years. When the conflict ends, woe will come to those who believe it.
You don’t even know how to spell his name. I think you’re, shall I say, making up your claim about knowing anything at all about Glenn Greenwald and his writings.
He has written hundreds of posts, not about “his books” and has made dozens and dozens of appearances, not about “his books.” He has written on “current, as in right this hour” a thousand times.
Also, you might want to learn where to make paragraph breaks.
Kitt, my friend, how awful for you to read through that entire too-long drek. But since you did, I don’t have to.
The Palestinians(Canaanites?) were saved by the Israelites from the Cretans?(Minoans?)Wow,what’s that on the list of excuses of why we’re stealing Palestine,693?
She’s obviously talking about Rula Jabreal. Highly recommended:
http://www.msnbc.com/all-in-with-chris-hayes/watch/rula-jebreal-on-the-gaza-media-war-311502403632
She’s awesomely un-“objective”, indeed — meaning, principled and showing awareness of obvious injustices.
Who is a woman of color. I am not.
“In West Bank, Israel revives punitive home demolitions in effort to deter Hamas.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/in-west-bank-israel-revives-home-demolitions-to-stop-hamas/2014/07/22/c8197236-1dd7-4874-a3eb-f9438065644f_story.html
That’s like saying “On 9/11 2001 Osama bin Laden revives punitive building demolitions in effort to deter American imperialism.”
Also, the doublespeak is clear. They need to (always) mention Hamas, because it’s a US-designated terrorist organization. But the actual intent is undoubtedly to deter resistance altogether.
America and Israel
Sitting in a tree
K-I-L-L-I-N-G
FAVED!
For the most excellent defenders of Israel, I sincerely hope you aren’t laboring for free. Particularly, when – if college age – you could be paid to do so. You could even claim experience with links to your best comment efforts on your resume.
For lurkers and readers unfamiliar with the hasbara (Hebrew for “explain”) brigades, these are individuals — frequently but necessarily Israeli — who are paid or who volunteer to spread Israel’s propaganda online. This projects are organized and sponsored by the State of Israel.
Richard Silverberg dropped the goods on these hasbara-ists in 2009, in a Guardian piece titled Hasbara spam alert : With Israel’s foreign ministry organising volunteers to flood news websites with pro-Israeli comments, Propaganda 2.0 is here.
Read it here: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2009/jan/09/israel-foreign-ministry-media
Dammit. Should be: ” but NOT necessarily”
Thank you for that link.
You know, if you think about it, Israel does have the right to defend itself
>”You know, if you think about it, Israel does have the right to defend itself”
I bet they have top notch lawyers.
“…..I bet they have top notch lawyers……”
I’ve said all along. Them Jews are sneaky and certainly not to be trusted.
It’s overall behavior since its inception is indefensible,despite the propaganda which enables it to continue to be indefensible.
Such things are also contrary to Christian teachings. Yet many self-described “Christians” rejoice in such crimes. Hypocrisy is a human failure, not a religious one.
Probably didn’t do any good, but I have been correcting hasbarists all day. Well, at least I learned a lot.
You know, it is one thing to recognize that politicians and tribalists are mendacious, but it is another thing to see the most profound mendacity everywhere you look! With Gaza and Ukraine and MH17, the internet is thoroughly saturated with it.
“Mendacity’s the system we live in, Big Daddy, drinking’s one way out – and dying’s another.”
Brick; Cat on a Hot Tin Roof
Great quote! How about a third way? Chip away little by little at that Great Wall of Mendacity, until finally some tiny beams shine through.
Or, as Bruce Cockburn sang, “Gotta kick at the darkness ’til it bleeds daylight.”
I always interpreted that Tennessee Williams line meant here’s “two ways out,” and not the only ways…
Great quote back atchya’!
If I have to choose between dying and drinking I’ll take drinking.
Mendacity is reliant on stupidity.
Yup, probably why it so often accompanies excessive drinking…
Hey Glenn… I think we;re over thinking what Bibi is doing now days…. He’s just playing with the media to get the world media spinning . What he REALLY wants to do, deep in the pit of his heart, is that Bibi wants to be the one person on earth that was willing to turn the Middle -East into GLASS. There’s only one way to do that.. He’s got it and it’s just like a three year old with a pocket full of quarters…
@ Winski:
Stopping that should be ultimate objective of everyone on planet Earth at this time.
As usual, RT is reporting facts in a timely fashion. It appears that the majority of International consensus regarding The State of Israel’s actions towards the few remaining natives of Palestine, is one of abhorrence.
“600 deaths in Israeli Gaza op: Military hits mosques, stadium, homes, hospital…….”
” This comes as US Secretary of State John Kerry arrived in Cairo on Monday for talks with UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon to discuss the region’s plight.
The US is set to give $47 million in humanitarian aid for Gaza, Kerry said. ”
See: http://rt.com/news/174632-deaths-israeli-gaza-operation/
In response to John Kerry’s offer of US Humanitarian aid; Richard Foyer comments:
“I’m glad that the people of Gaza are getting help but the $47 million on the part of the United States sounds like blood money to me. I mean, Israel could not possibly have attacked Gaza and be doing what they’re doing without the go-ahead from the United States,” Forer told Press TV.
“Not just the fact that the United States could have made it clear to Israel that they were not to invade Gaza but the fact that the United States provides Israel with the means, with the weapons, and the so-called moral authority – the backing of the United States – to invade Gaza,” he added.”
See: http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/07/22/372362/any-us-aid-to-gaza-is-blood-money/
“Kerry’s pledge of providing humanitarian aid to Gazans comes as Israel’s brutal atrocities against Palestinians are heavily funded by Washington. Under a current 10-year deal with Israel – signed in 2007 by the previous administration – $3 billion of American taxpayers’ money is flowing to Israel in military aid every year.”
In other words, the $3 BILLION of US taxpayers’ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ is actually $$$$$$$$$$$$$ that was STOLEN from us. Hey, USG! We DEMAND our $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ back! Every single penny! NO excuses!
I found this informative:
Stephen M. Walt: *AIPAC Is the Only Explanation for America’s Morally Bankrupt Israel Policy*
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stephen-m-walt/aipac-americas-israel-policy_b_5607883.html
Apparently hospitals have been targeted because the IDF believes that they are “a safe place for Hamas to meet the media.”
https://www.twitter.com/Belalmd12/status/491674993890041857/photo/1
@ Larry:
“Israel blatantly violating human rights in Gaza: Iran FM”
“Iran’s Foreign Minister Mohammad Javad Zarif says the Israeli regime has blatantly violated international human rights regulations in the Gaza Strip.”
See: http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/07/22/372369/israel-violating-human-rights/
Yes…there is hope in International outcry.
shows how dangerous it is to dare to speak what you think. This young Jewish boy brutally beaten and hauled away by police but what a valiant struggle he puts up. He had to know this might happen but is it right and why are they allowed to do this to him. He looks like he is all of 18.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=680935605323935
How freedom of speech is honored in the great democracy. Love that guy.
Love and prayers to that young man. I only hope and pray he’s able to recover. That was sickening. How can anyone sleep at night after dong something like this to another human?
I read somewhere that Rob Schneider,the comedian,was under fire for stating something to the effect how anyone could be immune to children’s deaths.Hats off to him,top speak truth!
I think the situation with Netanayhu has been dreadful since the start of his ‘election’, if you can call it that. If you are going to quote historically that the murder of the previous president of Israel, Yitzhak Rabin, who was a man of peace, this has to be looked at. The extreme right wing faction that I can only call fascist, needs particular research. I think if this happened in America you the American people would have ‘lynched’ him by now…politically ….Yitzhak Rabin should be remembered and it should be talked about the assasination and it’s current effect..why is it Israel turns it’s face away from what is holy in order to gain land, and from a Christian perspective, this country they call Israel is in each one of us through Christ…so you do not need land to enter heaven, or be holy. We have incredibly weak leadership globally at this time.
By the way, I missed it a couple of months ago. Saw it today. An exposé of Greenwald’s new boss, Pierre Omidyar, including a choice sycophantic quote from Glenn Greenwald himself.
http://pando.com/2014/05/31/ebay-shrugged-pierre-omidyar-believes-there-should-be-no-philanthropy-without-profit/
Sorry you missed that. It is very important for trolls to have their talking points, and marching orders. You must be slipping. I hope they don’t dock your pay too much.
Did you manage to read it within a couple of minutes? It’s not short.
You are being so polite today. Thanks.
Pando 2014 5 31!
Most of us follow Glenn Greenwald. He usually tweets out the articles which impugn his character. Most of us are aware of the pando screed.
Nice try. Smells a bit desperate. Is it the messenger or the message that you find worrisome?
That “screed” was written by Mark Ames, who as far as I can tell can’t be blamed for a lack of journalistic integrity and as far as I’m aware is not known for siding with Israel.
It does not impugn Greenwald’s character but it doesn’t paint a pretty picture about his judgment when it comes to the people he’s associating with – who in their right mind would start a brand new journalistic venture with a man as questionable as Omidyar?
This is ancient, and goes back to Greenwald causing Ames (and Yasha Levine) extreme embarrassment when the Editor of The Nation, in 2010, essentially retracted and apologized for an article they wrote. This was because it was bullshit that Greenwald called out, which snowballed into others doing so as well.
Ames and Levine have been on a crusade against Greenwald ever since their humiliation in 2010.
They and their pal at Pando, Paul Carr, are laughed at all over for their fixation on Glenn Greenwald. It’s become a standing joke.
Fine I will refrain from further comments about GG’s affiliation with Omidyar until I learn more about the subject.
So Greenwald got Ames, and now Ames is getting Greenwald back. Was the bullshit that Greenwald called Ames out on as significant as Omidyar materially supporting the overthrow of a sovereign government?
Also, just for the record… I don’t know Mark Ames, and although I have no ill feelings towards him, I don’t really give a shit who he is as regards my gripe with the Greenwald, Goodman, Scahill, Hayes and Kadouchebag crew. They are gatekeepers who need to be put in check so that there is more space for voices of dissent who don’t tow anachronistic lines of politeness… lines that always keep us stuck as victims, and never as victors!
Also, Also, just for the record…. I don’t want to take their microphones away from them… not my intention… I just want to decrease the volume on their often narrow and heavily moderated megaphones. Can You Dig ITTTTTTTTTTTTTTT!
You silly goose. Yeah, when I think of people who are considered too “polite” and as “victims,” Glenn Greenwald springs right fucking to mind.
{eyes rolling}
@Mona – You have a real funny way of saying “I love you.” Listen, if you wanna be my lover, you gotta get with my friends. Ok?
Silly Goose!
I also find it incredibly questionable that you go all fanboy over Greenwald. Is he a physicist? A mathematician? A philosopher? Is he really someone worth gushing about just because he’s opinionated?
I’m a Greenwald fanboy. There you’ve got me. I believe if god came and revealed himself to me and told me crap about him, it’s highly likely I’ll still decide to stick with Glenn. He has that kind of effect on his readership. I’d take Glenn’s word over god’s. He’s earned the trust, and the faith, whereas god has generally been absent.
Who the f is Mark Ames? What the f has he ever done? Glenn Greenwald has taken on powerful institutions. White House, AIPAC, NSA, Israel, institutions others are afraid to touch. What you don’t realize is something very simple. You can’t win, when it comes to Glenn Greenwald. If you take him on, sooner or later, you’re going to lose. It’s not that he cannot be wrong. He’ll let us know when he’s wrong. His strategy is very simple. No agenda but the truth. And the guy is fearless. Untouchable.
Jesus, I didn’t know I was this big a Glenn Greenwald fanboy. But I’m sure much of his readership agrees.
Pretty much. And because he is, and also because he greatly hates viewpoint discrimination in speech policies, he allows all who hate him to *freely comment, without deletion, in his comments section.
*Excessive volume of disruptive or inane posting can get someone canned here. Currently, in my view, no one is posting in that offensive manner.
“No agenda but the truth. ”
That is a noble agenda and one which will always triumph in the end analysis.
Okay he may or may not be a fine journalist, but he’s not worthy of adulation for what basically amounts to doing his job. That there are some journalists out there who are less than dedicated to their craft does not make Greenwald a star.
If the truth is his purview, let’s say that truth is Brad Pitt, Greenwald then, is the projector that lights up the movie screen – important, but not the star of the show.
The thing is, other journalist are calling him a “rockstar.”
Re AtheistinChief
What character?
You can´t get clearer than this, can you? Netanyahu and Goebbels are examples of the SAME fascist ideology! The difference is, the international community managed to stop the Nazis. Will it step in now, in time to stop the current massacre?
What have we become? A CNN poll shows that 57% say Israel is justified in its action; 34% say they aren’t and apparently 9% did an Elizabeth Warren. 43% said Israel is using the right amount of force.
40% said they were using too much force, and 12% said more force should be used. It’s making me sick to the point where I am unable to sleep.
Very proud to be in the minority in this poll!!
Undecided?
Hi Larry, Cheer up! Much better than I thought it would be, but polls are pretty lame most of the time anyway. They ask people about things about which they know next to nothing, and then take the answer seriously… and the rest of us are supposed to think it means something… hah!
Screwed that sentence up pretty well … : )
@ larry:
Anyone with an ounce of respect for the soul of humanity on planet Earth is disturbed by the truth of what is occurring in Gaza at this time.
Take heart. This just posted “Israel holds Palestinians captive in open Gaza prison: UN envoy”:
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/07/22/372365/israel-holds-gazans-captive-in-open-jail/
“Palestinian Ambassador to the United Nations Riyad Mansour says Palestinians are held captive by Israel in an “open prison” called the Gaza Strip.”
Presstv is an Iranian outlet and is about as authoritative as Stormfront. Lyra1 will have to do better then that.
@ colnago80:
That is correct. PressTV is presently reporting facts. as opposed to propaganda, and is better positioned to represent the Palestinian viewpoint at this time. Which is exactly why you should overcome your very narrow discriminatory views toward foreign media outlets, people of other nationalities, and religions.
You can’t blame them. Have you noticed the balance of op-ends in the mainstream US media? The brainwashing continues apace.
@ Jose:
Yes. I can’t stop the Zionist propaganda but I can attempt to counteract it.
Serial lying misinformation.It’s their motto.
ALERT!!!!
MISSLE FIRED FROM GAZA INTO ISRAEL
TARGET: B E E R S H E V A, I S R A E L
DATE: [TUE] JULY 22, 2014;
TIME : 21:56 [2:56 p.m. EDT]
I’m glad Jon Stewart mocked this app. Israel is committing suicide.
Well he followed the Israeli shout down with one by Palestinian supporters,which on the boob tube never happens,and is a false narrative,as usual.Comedy Channel?is owned by what Zionist mega media?
Brainstorm, what are you, 12 years old?
Are you kidding? He was 8 for Cast Lead. He’s a big boy now with his very own Hasbara merit badge.
Oh, I bet he wears it with such pride!
How many of these rockets have actually hit anything? The one Israeli civilian casualty was the result of a mortar. I’m afraid these app alerts are nowhere near as significant as, you know, blowing up a hospital for the disabled.
Also, I’m told that when people are warned in advance of a bombing, that makes it alright.
Netanyahu is a good student of his teacher, Reich Minister of Propaganda Joseph Geobbels.
Thanks Glen Greenwald for your enduring courage to report real truth.
Reporting on the Israel-Palestine conflict has been heavily slanted to favor Israel for at least several decades.
A billion people are watching the slaughter of children on TV screens. Support for Israel is a war crime.
..Perhaps Israelis have historical amnesia, and are working on a new type of holocaust, and crimes against the most vulnerable in our Human family: our children!
How can we stop this madness? They have prepared themselves for a Nuclear attack from a dome, underground shelters to individual masks, meanwhile we are distracted by football and senseless events!
It is an absolute, unjustifiable outrage that an adult would kill, maim, orphan, or harm in any way any child anywhere in the world at any time for any reason. It is unjustifiable to kill anyone but it is especially reprehensible and beyond the pale of humanity to kill a child. Any adult inhabitant of this planet who is not now dropping everything to act on behalf of the children of Palestine is guilty of consenting to the murder going on there. Our political leaders in the United States this includes Obama, Kerry, and for me Senators Cantwell, Murray and Representative Larsen are now actually guilty of war crimes.
The American people are deep asleep due to over 60 years of propaganda that manufactures consent and inaction.
Here is one thing that can be done.
Last night in our community we spoke before our city council (http://www.cob.org/sirepub/mtgviewer.aspx?meetid=150&doctype=AGENDA) and delivered a resolution created by our local Veterans for Peace chapter that demands an immediate cease fire. By speaking before the public, who care but who are confused because they have been lulled to sleep by American establishment media propaganda, we had an opportunity to present to them, help them hear for the first time, about the specific atrocities being committed against the citizens in Gaza. We read the names and ages of the children who had been killed to date. Unfortunately by this morning that number which was 90 last night had jumped to over 100.
Amen.
Unfortunately, I have seen again and again and again the argument that Hamas is “forcing” Gazans to keep missiles in their homes or that Gazans support Hamas so they endanger their families for the cause. It is preposterous and has been debunked; however, the UN and Amnesty International and others have found that it is Israel in fact that has used Palestinian children as human shields. Perhaps this is why the Israelis are convinced Hamas has done so–because they are guilty of doing it themselves.
This guy makes a good point:
http://www.salon.com/2014/07/22/the_rights_bin_laden_defense_how_an_attack_on_gazans_went_off_the_rails/
There are many words in my heart to tell you, Glenn. I’ll keep it simple though: Thank you from the depth of my heart!
He needs to report from Gaza or this website needs to put people on the ground there. He supported the illegal Iraq invasion, tell him to put his money where his mouth is. Fifteen employees and only one is blogging. What an embarrassment.
This makes it hard to believe that Palestinian children are not being targeted:
Describes incident after incident in which children, who are walking or playing outdoors with no airstrikes or gunfire occurring in their vicinity, being blown away by Israeli airstrikes or gunfire.
http://www.alternet.org/israels-brutal-war-palestinian-children?page=0%2C0
Well I’m reminded of the “collateral murder” video, in which American soldiers plead with their supervisor to get permission to kill a guy in a van, who is trying to help an injured person.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rXPrfnU3G0
The soldiers tell their boss on the radio that they have insurgents in their sights possibly with weapons in a “bongo truck” (a vehicle that apparently was used by insurgents in the past)
of course there are no insurgents, no weapons, no “bongo truck”
Here, in Gaza, we can easily imagine that the children were described by the Israeli soldiers over the radio as potential “miniaturized terror jihadists”, and based on that, or whatever box they need to tick off before shooting at people, the officer gave the go-ahead to shoot them up.
@ avelna2001:
They are trying to tell us. They are begging for help.
It is the slaughter of innocents(genocide) masked through the smokescreen of aggression by the State of Israel upon their own Prisoners of War, captured illegally in colonization of the State of Palestine. The only crime that these POW’s committed was to be born into Palestinian families who do not accept the Zionist god of war.
We can help them by speaking out and defending their right to exist, or we can remain silent and pretend that they have no right to exist. Not much choice as far as I am concerned.
I have a question. Is it a crime in the USA to express support for designated terrorists? No rhetoric implied, it is an honest question.
Largely — nominally — it is protected speech. Our First amendment is pretty strong. In practice, American Muslims are targeted for surveillance and more if they speak in support of designated terrorists……… and people like me, who still make sweet bullshit about the murdering IRA, are not.
I haven’t seen evidence that the US has gotten to the point where political opinions have been criminalized. (The case of Barrett Brown is close). But in theory, if you “substantially support” a group that is engaged in hostilities against the US or its partners, you can be detained indefinitely with no recourse, per the NDAA.
-“I haven’t seen evidence that the US has gotten to the point where political opinions have been criminalized.”
On the other hand the US has a plethora of “lists” that someone, American or non-American can be put on, such as the “No fly list” (or lists,…there are several no fly lists, apparently)
Starting with the “kill list”, these lists mete out non criminal punishment. So, criminalizing speech…is no longer necessary.
The very existance of the lists is secret, whether you are on them or not, and why, is secret, and the punishments, are mostly secret but include, being harassed, not getting hired, not getting on the plane, getting drone bombed, etc.
(Not to be confused with the US veterans hospital secret wait list) which is no longer a secret!!!)
Maybe.
“The ‘material support’ statute, 18 U.S.C. § 2339B, makes it a crime (punishable by up to 10 years in prison) to provide ‘material support’ to any foreign organization the Secretary of State has designated as terrorist. ‘Material support’ is defined in the statute to include almost any kind of support for blacklisted groups, including humanitarian aid, training, expert advice, ‘services’ in almost any form, and political advocacy. The Patriot Act broadened these provisions in the wake of 9/11.”
It’s an excellent point, the speech per se may now be criminal in a way we haven’t seen since the Espionage and Sedition Acts of 1917-8, but there’s also the matter of secondary offenses from that speech. Today’s story about sting operations suggests that it’s all about speech.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/21/government-agents-directly-involved-us-terror-plots-report
And the stings aren’t just targeting Muslims, as the case of Brandon Darby proves. (The documentary was good.)
Then again, it’s unclear (to me) to what extent Darby acted as a provocateur or enabler as opposed to merely an informant, so it’s unclear whether his case qualifies as a “sting”. But, it was definitely dubious behavior on the part of the FBI.
I support the government of Gaza, the rights of self determination, and liberation from Israeli embargo.
Doug, So far we can still criticize the CIA ( I have designated them), so the answer is no.
Finding that the ‘rockets from Palestine’ argument isn’t working very well to justify their gross overkill, Israel’s establishment has moved onto a different tack: tunnels:
“Watching Operation Protective Edge move from a few air strikes to invasion and decimation of the land and people of Palestine is so reminiscent of Cast Lead and the horrors we covered then. But there’s a new theme to this round of genocide – the Israeli claim that Hamas has a huge network of tunnels enabling Hamas ‘terrorists’ to attack Israeli locations virtually at will. This tunnel tale has been popping up throughout the coverage over the past few days and Israel is now saying destroying the tunnels is their primary reason for their war on Gaza rather than the rockets touted last week. Of course, if you look closely at the coverage, all the tunnel information comes from Israeli official sources, not from independent analysts or reporters’ own investigation.”
http://my.firedoglake.com/siun/2014/07/22/israel-tries-new-rationale-for-war/
If this propaganda tactic doesn’t work, Israel will perhaps start claiming Palestine is using mind-control to produce anti-Israel ‘vibe’ rays that only Jews can see.
Meanwhile the United Nations CONDEMNS Palestinian rockets while ‘urging’ Israel to exercise RESTRAINT. Just like Obama and Kerry, no one is daring to condemn Israel’s actions (too) except non-establishment voices.
Does AIPAC really pay this much in bribes? It must be a monumental amount of money, all right. Most people who should speak up seem more terrified than bribed to me, but then politicians are peculiar looking creatures who are often hard to read.
Israel claims that Hamas’ weapons are stored in mosques, homes, schools, hospitals, etc. How did they justify the murder of the four kids on the beach? Were there Hamas’ weapons buried under the sand? Just wondering.
If you’re thinking “bribes”, you’re thinkinig along the wrong lines.
Think “incriminating photos, documents etc.” and you will be closer to the mark.
In order to rise to any postiion of power within the political system, there will be a point in your life where you compromise your principles – where you cross some or other moral boundary in order to appear a ‘good egg’ to those in the next-innermost layer of the onion. (Some folks – the Cheneys and Blairs of the world, do so ith no qualms whatsoever).
Political aspirants are the types of people who are obsessed with being in an ‘Inner Ring’, and before you know it, their desperation to advance results in them participating in behaviour that makes “Eyes Wide Shut” look like a church picnic. And the cameras will be rolling – b’lee dat.
The global political elite – and the ‘top’ of the legal system (the judiciary, the top of the police force, etc) – contain almost exclusively people who are compromised in this manner: it becomes a kind of ‘loyalty test’ that must be passed in order to advance past some point.
Think of it like this: you’re a Senior Associate at a major law firm. You get invited out to drinks with some partners; someone sugests going to a titty bar. You go, despite misgivings (and despite a track record in the office of saying you are not interested in those places).
At the titty bar, one of the partners sidles up to you and says “Go through that door over there: she’s all yours, mate! It’s all paid for.”
If you refuse: your career just ended (more accurately: you will not advance any further – you might still be a good mid-level lawyer).
If you participate, there will be porn of it – up to and including the ‘surprise packet’ where the hooker turns out to be a tranny.
The political machine starts looking for ways to compromise political aspirants when they are in college (nobody enters politics on a whim as a 30 year old anymore: political careers start in freshman or sophomore year in college, and the most ardent aspirants are easay to identify, and easier still to corrupt).
Tunnels do provide an excuse to hit apt buildings, mosques, hospitals etc, (there could always be tunnels running under them)
and, the carnage is indesputable, American subsidized army vs resistance fighters, with many of the dead and injured being civilians that the occupying army should be protecting.
nevertheless, the tunnels exist. there are smuggling tunnels and separate tunnels for fighters to move around. similar in functionality to the Viet Cong tunnels. Burma is another place with an extensive tunnel system.
It’s common sense, just as are WWI trenches or Israeli bomb shelters, it is a perfectly rational thing to do. Even America feels the need to dig holes to bury some of its nuclear weapons underground
You can try “google” to find images, videos and stories about the Gaza tunnels if you want.
The rockets exist, but are known to be destroyed before causing any harm. Just so, the tunnels exist: my point is the tunnels are not comprehensive enough or numerous enough or ‘above the ground’ enough to warrant bombing people’s homes, hospitals, etc. “There was a tunnel under there” is a fucking ridiculous excuse.
Palestine is no real threat to Israel (this was why I mentioned deadly mind-rays sarcastically), and Israel’s massacre of Palestinians is ostensibly to make sure they never *get* to be a threat to Israel. This could be accomplished in other ways than terrorizing populations, but there seem to be powerful interests ensuring that the situation is portrayed as a ‘fair fight’ that Israel just happens to always win – and these attempts would be laughable if the situation wasn’t so serious.
@ Cindy:
“If this propaganda tactic doesn’t work, Israel will perhaps start claiming Palestine is using mind-control to produce anti-Israel ‘vibe’ rays that only Jews can see.”
In a sense they have already done that with resounding crys of “anti-semetism” every time one has the audacity to question the furthering of Zionist objectives by both the creation of the State of Israel, The actions of the State of Israel, and US involvement in pursuit of those aims.
In short, to imply that the Palestinians have any human rights, other than those of Prisoner of War status, is contrary to the Israeli Zionist philosophy of supremacy….it threatens their end goal objective in which they are allowed to administer their open-air prison camp as they choose.
Prisoners of War often resort to tunnels as a means of escape when the conditions under which they are being kept are intolerable and not in accordance with acceptable International standards of humane treatment. Some of the bolder ones, try to fight their way out, finding the possibility of death to be preferable to the hellish conditions of living.
An absurd false equivalence re Israel/Palestine from the messiah of “moderates”
http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/7wnfel/we-need-to-talk-about-israel
(It’s the numbers and influence that make it absurd, not necessarily the intolerance.)
That clip was funny and a fair depiction of how vitriolic the discussion has become. But at the same time, I was disappointed to see Jon basically “punt” on actually trying to report some information and instead head directly to the Ukraine issue. Hopefully he dedicates a lot more coverage throughout the rest of the week.
Netanyahu’s ‘Telegenically Dead’ comment was stupid and maybe a sign he should retire. However, almost all the comments I see on the comment board are anti-Israel. If Canada or Mexico was shooting rockets at us (the USA) then we would also respond in force. Unfortunately, there seems to be this cycle where the tunnels are destroyed in Gaza, after 2 or 3 years they are rebuilt, the rockets are restocked, there is an incident, Hamas shoots off everything they have, and then Israel goes back in and destroys the tunnels. And this cycle seems to repeat ad nauseum.
If the U.S. had several million Canadian or Mexican people penned up in an open air prison after stealing their land, rather than responding with force, the U.S. would be wise and moral to solve the problem by letting those oppressed Canadians or Mexicans go free, and to compensate them for their land.
-“by letting those oppressed Canadians or Mexicans go free”
Yes but short of that, the wise and moral thing, what else could they do????? ;)
I assume you’re joking. The US would do exactly what Israel does: Label the oppressed “terrorists” and then claim its disproportionate military operations are “self-defense”.
That old canard about Mexico or Canada “shooting rockets into the US” is absolute horse manure! This hasn’t happened, and WON’T happen and is just an excuse and cover for Israel to kill more women, children, old people and innocents in it’s reckless and criminal assault on the “high security” prison that is the Gaza strip.
Are Mexico and Canada under occupation by the US?? I didn’t think so.
quote” If Canada or Mexico was shooting rockets at us (the USA) then we would also respond in force”unquote
If America was doing this to Mexico or Canada in the first place…well then..I think this pretty well sums it up…
http://internationaltimes.it/wp-content/uploads/Gaza-1.jpg
but yeah, America would…regardless..just like Israel. After all…America is funding the CARNAGE..
Israeli racism is rampant, not just against the Paletinians but including against African asylum seekers who have been physically attacked, and it’s not just Netanyahu who makes violent, inciteful comments. Ayelet Shaked said that Palestinian children are ‘little snakes’ who must be killed with their mothers. This is a clear call for genocide. Dr. Mordechai Keidar said that Palestinian women and their daughters should be raped- a war crime. But what should one expect of an apartheid state? As for Israel going into Gaza merely to ‘destroy tunnels’- that is ridiculous. Over 600 people in Gaza are dead in Israel’s latest massacre- many of them women and children (26 men, women and children dead in one family), children blown to pieces as they kicked a ball on the beach. You get the picture? Or you still fuzzy on details?
Any state who occupies, terrorizes its occupied population (and despite Israel’s legal duty as occupier to protect the Palestinians), besieges a densely populated area for years to the point that their sanitation systems break down, hospitals run out of medicines and people are trapped and starved and unable to study abroad because they are indefinitely imprisoned and collectively punished, uses apartheid- laws which discriminate based on ethnicity which Israel does in dozens of examples (see South African study on this or Adalah evidence)… well, guess what? I would not be pro that political system either.
You also seem to forget (or not even know?) that prior to the rockets from Gaza, Israel broke a ceasefire agreement. Gaza rockets have killed 29 Israelis over 10 years as of today. No wonder Israel never mentions its casualties as the flying projectiles from Gaza make good cover for Israell’s intention to destroy Gaza. http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/rocket-deaths-israel.html In this Israeli massacre alone, over 600 Gazans have died from Israeli rockets, missiles, shells and bullets- many of them women and children. And this isn’t Israel’s first massacre in Gaza. So now you need to ask yourself why people fire rockets when their basic inalienable rights are repeatedly abused, even if those rockets don’t actually do anything. It’s a form of resistance, even if futile. And why are those tunnels being dug? Oh yes, Gaza is under a years long siege. Imagine if you weren’t allowed to leave your state or county for 7 years and you it was running low on medicines, food items, clothing, building materials, car parts, equipment, etc?
It’s not about Hamas. Or the rockets from Gaza. It’s about defending the occupation and making sure the Palestinians never get their rights because there is a lot of valuable land that Israel wants and is busy taking. A peace deal would give Palestinians their rights, which include their land returned, the rights of refugees to get their property returned and to return to it even if it’s in what is now called Israel, and an end to ethnically based privileges for Jews in Israel and the occupied territories of East Jerusalem and the West Bank. This is why Palestinian civil society has called for a boycott of Israel until their rights are met. This is why Israel is terrified of boycott, divestment, sanctions- it’s popular, peaceful and effective. The irony is that the more Israel brutalizes the Palestinians, the stronger the support for the boycott grows.
Netanyahu’s ‘Telegenically Dead” comment was stupid??????????
I’m curious, how would you describe Goebbel’s comment?
One of the best overviews of what’s been happening in US Israel Palestine politics:
http://www.democracynow.org/2014/7/22/how_the_west_chose_war_in?autostart=true
with Nathan Thrall
And …
July 22, 2014. 10:37a.m. [GMT -6:00]
HAMAS Rocket Attack ON Moatza Ezorit Hof Ashkelon, ISRAEL.
IS THE 23rd MISSILE ATTACK THIS A.M. !!!!!!!
What have you got to say about that MONA, and LYRA1 ? Let me guess: you think that Israel is forcing Hamas, at gun point, to fire missiles at Israeli civilians! You should download the Red Alert app to experience for yourself what’s actually going on. It’s a real eye-opener.
Rockets Attack : Moatza Ezorit Hof Ashkelon
@ Brainstorm:
I think that you are a brainwashed imbecile and the last thing that I would do is download any application that you would recommend.
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/07/22/372337/death-toll-hits-604-in-israel-war-on-gaza/
Your a fucking hypocrite.
The Red Alert app *alarms* each time Hamas launches a missile into Israel. It tells you the day, the time the missile was launched, and the location in Israel where the missile was aimed. So far this morning that has happened 34 times. In the last month or so, this has happened OVER 2000 TIMES. Now you tell me why you wouldn’t want to know that kind of information, as it’s occurring, on the fly, if you want to be such a fucking expert on this whole conflict. Do those missile launches not give Israel complete justification for fighting to stop them from coming? To target and destroy the locations from which they’re launched? To hunt down and destroy any missiles that are stored throughout Gaza? To seek out and destroy all of the tunnels that are used to spirit these missiles and equipment into Gaza illegally? Well? HAMAS deliberately stores it’s missiles and organizes it’s missile batteries in locations that are heavily populated with civilians. In people’s backyards, in schools, near hospitals, near religious meeting sites. It does this work even during morning prayers. HAMAS doesn’t give two shits about anybody in Gaza and you know it –but you still defend it.
Now, you may not want to download the app because I told you to do it. I guess this clearly shows that I am not the boss of you. How are you, 7? Whether you download it or not doesn’t dismiss the fact that the app brings into the light what’s really happening with regard to HAMAS’ ENDLESS EXTREME AGGRESSION AGAINST INNOCENT ISRAELIS. For your information, these missile launches are what necessitated Israel’s move into GAZA to put an end to them — and oh yeah, I almost forgot, the TUNNELS!
What say you about all these missile launches into Israel? What say you about the tunnels? Well what do you say?
I am giddy with anticipation to hear what you have to say next! Can’t wait to see you dance around the question of what do you think about the missile launches in Israel, and what do you think about the tunnels. Why don’t I almost know your reply is not going to provide an honest and an simple answer to the questions I asked you? You’re so full of shit in advance.
@ brainstorm:
Regarding both the missile launches and tunnels of which you have been brainwashed into believing are both justifications for the defense of the State of Israel, I would point out that neither would exist if not for the illegal colonization by the State of Israel upon the State of Palestine which you so obtusely, refuse to recognize as the underlying basis for Israeli aggression upon the Palestinians.
You can inform yourself regarding the historical facts by reading this brief, but clear, history regarding the “Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict” as follows:
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html
Until you can speak, at least, in some literate fashion regarding these affairs, I have no obligation to engage in further discussion with you.
Further….I will interpret any foolish attempts to do so as a type of verbally threatening online stalking behavior.
You know Palestinians have an app for that too. It’s called knock on the roof
Any idea of the model and destructive power of these missiles which are being launched against Israel? How many Israelis have been killed or wounded by these missiles?
A few years ago, during Cast Lead, there was a listing of the number of Palestinian civilians, Palentinian fighters (ostensibly Hamas), Israeli civilians, Israeli military (IDF) and misc. others killed and/or wounded since, I believe the year of 1990 (not sure about that year but it really isn’t important). The ratio of Palestinians killed to Israelis killed was something like 200:1. Now this included people killed on a daily basis, including planned military exercises and relatively minor singular attacks.
Please take the time to read up on the term “proportionality” and how it applies to war crimes.
While you do that, please let us know how many Israelis have been killed or wounded by their enemies emerging from this so-called extensive tunnel complex. I have read of absolutely NO casualties which can be attributed to the tunnels but I will accept the probability that there are Hamas fighters being supplied in this manner and that Hamas fighters, not civilians, travel in these tunnels.
So why not confine their attacks to the tunnels and leave the habitat of the Palestinian people alone?
During Cast Lead, Israel admitted that its actions toward the civilian population was both purposeful and deliberate. Their given reason was to instill fear in the Palestinian population and make them stop resisting the occupation. That, my friend, is the definition of a war crime and it fits the definition of terrorism precisely.
Have a nice day. I don’t expect a reply.
>” I don’t expect a reply.”
surprise, surprise. *… you’re looking particularly spry Bill!
>”Their given reason was to instill fear in the Palestinian population and make them stop resisting the occupation. That, my friend, is the definition of a war crime and it fits the definition of terrorism precisely.”
Important observations imo. I’ve come to the conclusion that only Leaders of Nation states are in a position to create/perpetuate acts of “terrorism”. … everything/everybody else is a criminal matter.
The App shows you what it is designed to show you, nothing more, nothing less. Whether it shows what is actually happening is another question altogether. Frankly, given the source, I’d say it’s no more than a lure for imbecils to spread. In war, anyone who believes either side tells the truth all the time is an idiot. Anyone who believes that Israel tells the truth ever, is an imbecil.
But the best is this…. The FAA today banned flights to Israel due to the Israeli claim of being attacked by these missiles.
Israel promptly objected saying that there is no danger to aircraft because of their Iron Dome system.
Anniliate Gaza because of al this carnage caused by Palestinian missiles but don’t worry, they are no danger because of Iron Dome.
I wish they would make up their minds.
Sometimes you knuckleheads have to step outside your ancient tribal ties and see the big picture.And the big picture body count tells us that the Palestinians die at a ten times at least rate than Israelis,and the rockets are not comparable from the Palestinian side,neither do they have tanks or planes,but they’ve got moxie,baby.you should have picked on the Quakers,methinks they’ll never give up or in and that gnaws at you.
The quote of Juan Cole in Coram’s stand-alone-post immediately below yours is a good start. Another is this from Moshe Dayan, taken from his eulogy for a dead Zionist solder in 1956:
As monstrous as that is, it has the virtue of being frank and honest.
“IS THE 23rd MISSILE ATTACK THIS A.M. !!!!!!!”
The name “Hamas” refers to “resistance movement”. Surprisingly, resistance movements spring up to resist something that has already occured. In this case, Hamas began in ’87, to resist the occupation of ’67.
In other words, long before “this A.M.”, long before most Palestinians were born, Israel was killing kids. Israel was killing kids long before Hamas even existed. before Hamas, Israel was blaming Arafat, or blaming the PLO, whenever the Israeli army killed kids.
Here’s one of the kids that was luckier than some, on Chris Hayes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaMv7H__5ZM&list=UUqVeMUffsoeo9idMRcse0lQ
fifteen year old handcuffed and beaten by Israeli soldiers
And that is only because he is a Palestinian-American. As he and his family have repeatedly said, this kind of extreme police brutality and discrimination against Arabs by Israeli cops and civilians is utterly routine. It made headlines this time only because the Israelis had the bad luck to beat an American kid.
this kind of extreme police brutality and discrimination against Arabs by Israeli cops and civilians is utterly routine.”unquote
Yeah, and it’s getting routine in Murka too…
http://wemeantwell.com/blog/2014/07/22/police-militarization-fish-rot-from-the-head/
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Police+Brutality
http://www.policestateusa.com/
http://www.google.com/webhp?nord=1#nord=1&q=small+town+police+militarization
Seriously? Israelis get warned by an app. Palestinians get warned by bombs exploding in their house. The two things are not equivalent, unless you have a deranged sense of entitlement.
Instead of us downloading an app, why don’t you go to Gaza and experience for yourself what’s actually going on?
I have little patience for the oppressor complaining about being abused by the oppressed.
I don’t see the reasoning for qualifying or justifying your comparison of Goebbels and Bibi. Both obviously were/are part of an extensive state network that made/makes use of every possible means to extend a certain version of events, and to proffer a certain interpretation of those events. This latter fact is as much true of Goebbels’ “Triumpgf of the Will” Germany as it is for Bibi’s “Peace Without Peace” Israel. Certainly some amount of — ultimately unjustifiable– disparagement of “the enemy” is necessary for both the morale and the international posturing required to execute such a campaign. The same was true for America in, say, the Second World War with respect to Japanese. Was all of what was said about them true? No, to a large extent it was acist diatribe (“Japs” as “scheming”, “shifty”, etc.). No further qualifications should be necessary to your comparisons of the two men, since the similarities do exist. I say this not being at the receiving end of criticisms of similar assertions. I, personally, would lagely ignore those criticisms as baseless (they are) and spend more time with the details at hand, which, basically, point to the fact that the writing’s on the wall. I would, further, elucidate the problems of propaganda in war in general, and its uses as a means of deceiving and duping large segments of an increasingly international public. And Bibi’s comments are certainly that: propaganda, calculated and precisely timed/selected to coincide with a “necessary but brutal” offensive against a largely defenseless and docile populace, guilty of the heinous crime of self determination and self defense.
And an analysis of US media bias WRT P/I, on point here.
http://www.juancole.com/2014/07/jebreal-against-palestinians.html
And an analysis of US official bias wrt P/I “Endeavor to persevere” h/t Lone Watie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRX6hSGeZs4
Exactly on point.
Thanks for posting.
First of all ….. Mona and Lyra1, you are both morons. Question: are either of you £&/@#€¥!
And Glenn, [this article is tour de force! It’s fair, clearly put, and to the point. No need to read it more than once to understand it and come to realize its powerful and inescapable logic. And your excellent technique of making your case in three carefully explained points is something new and refreshing. Well done!] NOT!
NSA WORD COUNT = 0. SNOWDEN WORD COUNT = 0.
Way to go. It’s so great to see you delivering on the Intercept’s stated purpose.
Brainstorm..
Appreciating the unadulterated (@1:13).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAVeK0hl4Ag
You didn’t quote from or link to The Intercept’s stated purpose. You do not know what that is. From the easily accessed “About” page here:
Glenn Greenwald has covered issues pertaining to America’s Israel Lobby, and the manner in which our media covers Israel, for some nine years. You appear not to know this.
Now you do.
Mona,
Right. I can’t believe you don’t see how week in idiotic are the things write sometimes..
Time is NOT the broader, longer-term period. Short-term, which is still now, is to deliver on the full NSA disclosures. THE DISCLOSURES HAVE NOT BEEN FINISHED YET. SO DON’T GIVE ME THIS BULLSHIT ABOUT BEING FAMILIAR THE INTERCEPT’S PURPOSE.
Glenn should be spending all his Intercept time living up to the commitment he made to Snowden and to everyone else to make full disclosure of all the things that they selected for publishing that not been printed yet. From the beginning, everyone has known because that the purpose of all this activity is to bring about change in the law and the policies of the government as a relates to spying on individuals like us. Not only have we not reached or have been moving in that direction since spring, we’re actually moving backwards again. And Glenn Greenwald is fucking making this happen.
Get with the program, Mona!
Even if Glenn Greenwald believes the period for primarily NSA reporting still obtains, his column above would be suitable. To quote from the site’s Editor, John Cook:
And no one can stop Glenn Greenwald from addressing the issues of the Israel Lobby in the U.S., as well as how the U.S. media covers the Israel/Palestine “conflict.” He’s been doing so for virtually the almost 9 years he’s been posting at his web site.
Mona, why are you fucking with this moron?
@ Brainstorm:
When delivering insults to an English speaking audience, it is best to use the English language.
Your attempts at this are at best, feeble; therefore, you should hone your dialect a bit when attempting communication with those that are beyond the realm of the mentally retarded.
Well I’ll have to give you that. I have this bad habit of using the voice recognition feature in iOS. It just isn’t used to my Yankee accent! Point well taken.
By vastly more means than a ground invasion of Gaza and using a program of oppression that dates from 1948, Israel’s Zionists are ethnically cleansing the occupied territories of Palestinians in an effort (that appears to be succeeding) to realize the goal of Greater Israel.
This fundamental issue underlies the historical and continuing conflict in the territories. It really is just that simple.
So, perhaps rather than discussing (and disagreeing over) what are, in comparison, merely contemporary minutia we should focus on the underlying issue, ethnic cleansing.
LF
Another journalist muzzled by MSNBC:
http://www.alternet.org/media/msnbc-correspondent-i-was-canceled-because-i-criticized-networks-pro-israel-coverage
Q: Yo, Incorrigible Fuk`.. Do you have any evidence as to who was responsible for the deaths that initiated this massacre (aka – ‘shooting fish in a barrel)?
A: “I fully believe that Hamas was behind the kidnapping and killing of the three teens.” -craig summers
Thanks
@ suave:
Oh him…..yeah, he has lost his heart and soul and no longer has the capacity to reach his own conscience.
His voluminous reiterations of historical chronologies have been perverted by own ill-conceived notions of pretended objectivity without sway from a strictly one-sided view. He is the consummate expert of deliberate misrepresentation and twisting of facts to suit his own veiled purposes which are clearly in support of the Zionist(political and economic repression) ideology. His endless epilogues are specifically designed to target people who might be striving toward truth which is in opposition to his ultimate objective of spreading lies and extinguishing hope by implying that only a State or Government is capable of deciding the laws of humanity. He is grossly deceived by his own acceptance of subservience to his masters and therefore, has robbed himself of freedom to choose. I expect therefore, that he can not be helped because he has erected his own prison.
Many thanks to you Mr. Greenwald for opening this dialogue with this article which is, currently being addressed by many alternative media sites in the truest sense of what I perceive to be your intent in publishing.
Unfortunately, the comments on this thread, are largely directed and intellectualized toward variations in interpretations of documented history and legal interpretations as to what constitutes justifiable actions in the conduct of war.
Given that, I think it is only fair to point out what is NOT justifiable under International law under any circumstances or claims. See US Army Field Manual 27-10 The Law of Land Warfare
http://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/Military_Law/pdf/law_warfare-1956.pdf
Briefly stated; in no circumstance, is it permissible to fire upon non-combatants (civilians), medical facilities, or religious facilities. Actions such as those are considered in violation of the aforementioned treaties and are subject to tribunal as war crimes.
In the case under examination at this time. Israel is illegally firing upon the aforementioned targets, and the US is providing the economical means and weaponry to conduct what are clearly illegal operations of war. Those people who are attempting to justify, rationalize, verbally mitigate, or further assist The State of Israel to commit these crimes could be considered as accomplices. This statement does not exclude those arrogant and overly intellectualized subject matter experts that are twisting the facts on this comment board.
To continue…. There is no justification for this:
http://www.zengardner.com/letter-gaza-norwegian-doctor/
The classical Islamic Law (Shari’ah) also puts these, and more, restrictions. It also prohibits harming off-duty soldiers, contaminating water supplies, etc.
See Dr. Tahir ul Qadri’s fatwa on terrorism.
Sadly, many Muslims are in violation of these laws.
@ Sufi Muslim:
If you read the reference I cited, which is long, you will find many more illegal actions under the Laws of Land Warfare which include some that you have cited which totally comply with your religious laws.
In the end….there are only two sides to choose between, both within the individual , and within the conduct of society on planet Earth.
As evidence that the alternative media is rising to your challenge, I present this:
http://www.activistpost.com/2014/07/the-mainstream-medias-blind-spot-in-gaza.html#more
A day passes and still no update to this article’s incorrect quotation (explained below). What’s your excuse Glenn?
It turns out the “somebody” that Netanyahu referred to for his “telegenic” quotation was Charles Krauthammer in an opinion piece for the WP
See http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/charles-krauthammer-moral-clarity-in-gaza/2014/07/17/0adabe0c-0de4-11e4-8c9a-923ecc0c7d23_story.html?hpid=z6
Krauthammer
If you give a damn about what was actually said and where it seems to have stemmed from, now you know.
Netanyahu made the quote his own by putting it into his own words, as can be read below. What’s your damned point? We’re talking about a man who is justifying mass murder by doubling down on a disgusting quote by repeating it in his own words on national television, and so you’re here trying to make your mark with incessant whining and carping about nothing.
“I mean it’s gruesome, they use telegenically dead Palestinians for their cause.”–Benjamin Netanyahu
What’s your goddamned point
IT IS QUITE SIMPLE: THE QUOTE IS INCORRECT!!!
Willful ignorance at its finest. There is really no excuse you can make up to excuse an incomplete quote, so don’t insult yourself and all of our intelligence by trying to justify it.
I’m going to assume Glenn has not noticed it yet because I’d imagine he’d care about an incorrect quotation and address it.
Um, actually he did not. He referred to someone else saying it. That someone was Charles Krauthammer. That doesn’t legitimize the comment by one iota, but it was not Bibi’s “own words.” Think of it this way – why are you okay with Glenn incorrectly quoting Netanyahu from his article at Forward.com, but not okay with Netanyahu accurately paraphrasing Krauthammer’s highly questionable comment?
Double standard?
Usually numbers don’t matter, but in this case almost no one at all is buying into your outrage with this phony diversion you are going on and on and on about. So take your “willful ignorance” and wear it as your badge of honor. It is, after all, all yours. Trying to pass it off to someone else who hasn’t earned it won’t get rid of it for you.
This “phony diversion” is the subject of the article. I am not outraged by the faulty quotation but by having to explain why quotes need to be accurate to people on TI.
Lastly, your conclusion that no one is buying what I am saying only tells me that you look to others to establish or bolster your argument instead of refuting the claim head on. Sometimes you have to pick your battles and arguing in support of an improper quotation is not an easy battle to win.
Nate, I do find your continuous “Daddy daddy look at me!” style mands for Glenn’s attention somewhat endearing, and hey, I ain’t judging since I enjoy following him around like a fangirl duckling myself. Assuming this isn’t 100% a simple bid for attention / response, though, your line of thinking here makes little sense. Netanyahu was saying “Hey, this person ‘pointed this out’ to me, and I thought it made sense and agreed with it, so I’m talking about this idea here” he didn’t in some neutral sense say “Hmm, as a total historical statement, I would like to note that someone once said this.” Yes, the original quote is somewhat longer, but the intent seems exactly the same to me.
If you read this comment section fully, you’d know that very early on someone posted that it was a Krauthammer quote. Just do a search.
I saw the Netanyahu video. He didn’t say “You know, Goebbels once said blah, blah, and he was wrong to have said that.” He said “somebody (Krauthammer) said blah, blah” to justify his own actions. I really don’t understand what your bullshit point is. Netanyahu didn’t mean it? What did he mean then? What is your fucking point?
Calm down, guys. :)
Nate’s just being a disingenuous simpleton, and he’s already been amply exposed as such. Not many are really taking what Nate says with any degree of seriousness, and Netanyahu’s “telegenic” comment has already blown up worldwide.
I think calling Nate a simpleton is inaccurate. He clearly has the chops to see things when he wants to, but his disingenuousness surrounding Greenwald is pretty obvious. In this case, he either clearly doesn’t understand the generation and functions of memes, or he is ignoring it in order to pick a non-existent nit, something he engages in almost non-stop in these threads.
Unless Nate has done the due diligence he insists Greenwald engage in which is really quite meaningless in this case, he has no proof that this meme actually began with Krauthammer. After all, Krauthammer could just as easily have heard any one of his own foul friends/compatriots use the phrase as well. So fussing about the origin of this nastiness, as opposed to clearly condemning it, is side dressing. We simply don’t need to know who first called Jews vermin to know it’s wrong and designed to dehumanize the victims of horrendous violence. At least, not if we have any kind of conscience.
The beginning of a meme has no factual worth. The propagation, however, is where the paydirt – so to speak – lies. Netanyahu’s attribution elsewhere is meaningless when he so clearly agrees with the characterization. It is nothing more than a cowardly attempt to avert criticism while simultaneously sending a message to the more odious members of his support group that he is still onside with their vile and fervid imaginations/beliefs.
That used to be called ’employing a dog whistle’. Apologies to dogs everywhere.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme
For anyone who thinks I’m implying above that Nate doesn’t understand the generation of and/or propagation of memes, I suppose that’s possible. On the other hand, there is also the possibility that Nate is simply “hearing his master’s voice”.
http://www.freakingnews.com/pictures/48500/His-Master-s-Voice–48604.jpg
As well as ignoring part of the headline (par for his course):
Netanyahu’s ‘Telegenically Dead’ Comment Is Grotesque but Not Original
I appreciate that Pedinska.
I understand memes and don’t see what that has to do with this. As for claims of nitpicking, that is in the eye of the beholder. If I wrote this, I would want my quotation to be correct! As I said before, he could use the proper quote and still make a similar point. The difference is that it would be known that he may be parroting the conversative hawk Krauthammer. Part of the blame for this quote starts with USA Today actually. They were the first ones to use ellipses to truncate the quote and the rest was history! But all you have to do is watch the damned CNN video!
You’re right, it could be someone else. Hence the importance of getting the quote right. If I could go back in time as Wolf Blitzer, a nice couple follow-up Q’s would be: (1) What is your evidence that Hamas is using “telegenically dead” and (2) when you say “someone” who are you referring to as saying this. But my point still stands, by not capturing the full quote, nobody knows this!
And even if you don’t like my critiques of Glenn which are obviously critical, you shouldn’t just toss out my opinions because of it. Do you ignore Mona’s opinions because she used to work with Glenn and defends his honor at every corner. No! You shouldn’t need to resort to that if you can break down their ACTUAL argument.
Again, that’s your opinion but without the full quote, you’d have no idea where he came up with that shit!
I am on the same page as you! I think he pulled a typical politican move where he took a quote from a respected (in conservative circles at least) commenter in the U.S. and used it for his biased purposes. But you’d never know without the full quote.
And that’s what drives me nuts around here. People act like this is some deflection of the actual matter when I am commenting on the main subject. If you want to know where I stand on the ongoing events in Gaza, just ask but don’t assume I am pro-Israeli. You’ll be sorely mistaken.
Nate, I feel your frustration, so I will try to come at this from a slightly different angle to see if we can work through it a bit better.
People act like this is some deflection of the actual matter when I am commenting on the main subject.
The premise for Glenn’s article is laid out in the bolded bits of the second and fourth paragraphs, as well as his title. We’ve already discussed the title, so let’s move on to the first bit of the story which (if we take bolding for the emphasis it is meant to convey) is a comparison between Netanyahu’s words:
and those of Joseph Goebbels:
That is the premise of his article, laid out as plainly and simply as he can make it. Including the “someone says” bit, or an attribution to Krauthammer would have absolutely no impact on that point/premise.
He goes on to add three ancillary points:
1. That drawing comparisons is not the same as stating equivalence.
2. That war rhetoric is universally used to attempt the justification of tremendous acts of violence, and that trying to limit the scope of discussion about that rhetoric is ludicrous for all kinds of reasons.
3. No amount of rhetoric – i.e. rationalization – absolves the actors from the criminality inherent to their actions.
Now, I will say this about the use of the entire quote: I agree that it probably should have been posted as you noted, but NOT because of the “someone said” bit. Rather, I think that the following part,
would have acted as a bolster for Glenn’s third ancillary observation, as well as showing just how sniveling someone like Netanyahu can be as he tries to shift responsibilty for the monstrosities he has unleashed.
So, while you may not have intended a deflection, that’s really how it reads. You seem to latch on to something that is a side issue of little import to what Glenn is actually trying to say, then start demanding he address your concern as if it were the only thing that mattered, when it is not a central point at all (though obviously of importance to you).
I think it’s good to know the general origins of these destructive memes, but when it comes right down to it, the fact that it is terribly destructive is what is important, as opposed to the posting of an exacting pedigree of its evolution.
Additionally, I would note that truncating a quote is not the same as posting an incorrect quote. The words, as quoted, are what Netanyahu said.
A case can be made that truncating distorts what the speaker is saying but, in this case, that is not what you seem to be arguing. You want it known that the meme didn’t originate with the speaker.
So I would argue that Glenn’s truncation meets the needs of his premise and that the additional verbiage you specifically chose to champion for inclusion really adds nothing to his premise whatsoever.
So since it hasn’t resonated in the obscene echo chamber we call TI, it must be bullshit!! And since other publications have included the same incorrect quotation verbatim and it has blown up worldwide, it’s all good. Sound logic!
Um, ya think!? It’s so unoriginal that Krauthammer said it days before.
P.S. the Goebbels part in Glenn’s article was some quality Reductio ad Hitlerum. Quality stuff!
I think I see the point you’re trying to make. Apologies for insulting you hastily before considering more fully what you had to say.
Seconding Pedinska above, truncating a quote is a very different thing to making an actual mistake. This is ESPECIALLY relevant when considering spoken quotations.
If you go back to the video, you can see that, as with most conversations, the cadence and rhythm of a conversation is very different to what you would get in a written paragraph. For example, we don’t expect transcripts of spoken conversations to include all instances of “um”, “err”, and “ah”. We usually smooth out these tics in transcribing them.
That’s not quite what happens with the Netanyahu video, but it IS very clear that after he says “somebody said…” he pauses, and resets his tone. His cadence and tone suggest STRONGLY to me that when he goes on to talk about “telegenically dead”, he is NOT quoting, but using someone else’s concept in his own words, probably because he was worried of misquoting Krauthammer.
In this case, I would say that the source Greenwald used actually quoted Netanyahu correctly, and the only thing one could argue Greenwald should have done is written it as “They want to pile up as many civilian dead as they can. (…) They use telegenically dead Palestinians for their cause. They want the more dead, the better.”
Inserting the dots is a perfectly acceptable way of truncating a quote, as the part that is truncated does NOT significantly distort the intended meaning of the quote.
As regards attribution, I really don’t think it’s relevant who said it first, since Netanyahu is clearly appropriating the concept.
Thanks, good to see other people looking out.
I never claimed he did.
You explained my “bullshit point” by providing a more accurate depiction of the Bibi quotation than Glenn did. Did Bibi mean it? Yes. What did he mean then? N/A What is your fucking point? That the quote was wrong. Do you need me to make a flipbook for you explaining this?
Krauthammer’s problem is that the pool was too shallow.
Your problem is that you’ve chosen to debate in the deep end of the pool. Back to the shallow end, Shorty.
@ Nate:
And once again you present yourself as the self-designated consummate expert of nothing, except diversion of subject matter material, sniper attack of Mr. Greenwald’s credibility through veiled, disingenuous curiosity, and general disruption on this comment board.
Do not think that you can somehow overcome your own self-exposure and resume your former antics without receiving repeated blows from those that see through your tactics. The damage is done.
MEANT TO SAY …. LYR1
@ Brainstorm:
Try using a dictionary.
I would have gone with Consummate Obfuscator by Design. It yields a better acronym. ;-}
@ Pedinska:
Yes….that is a better choice of words.
You know what is strangely missing from this post?
A non-ad hominem attack.
Lyra1, weren’t you just screaming at me a couple days ago to leave you alone? I will respect your wishes and not respond to you if you don’t engage me. Deal!?
@ Nate:
Concur. We have a deal.
This author seems to ignore that Israel has a duty to stop the rockets, that Israel articulated its goal, that Israel systematically warns where it is going, that the places to be bombed are virtually always known ahead of time and, still, Hamas insists that its people stay in the way of bombs.
@ 2hear:
And you are failing to ignore the fact that the Main Stream Media is spouting nothing more than the Zionist Israeli talking points which you have adopted, so conveniently, to attack the author of this article for presenting the other side of the issue.
Obviously, it is you who are lacking in any objectivity, regarding the actions of the State of Israel.
Can you please provide a link to the place you learned that “Hamas insists that its people stay in the way of bombs”. Can you provide a quote or other recognized source for this claim?
Given that Gaza is a relatively small area with a large population, where do you suggest that innocent civilians go rather than staying in the way of bombs?
How about a little peace with justice,and voila,the rockets cease,maybe and hopefully permanently.Looks logical to me.Your other points are illogical(nowhere to run) and perfidious lies(Hamas wants their deaths).
I would like to talk about escalation.
What if Israel decides to escalate the imaginary “massacre” in Gaza – imaginary in so far as it exist in western leftists’ fevered imaginations – into a real massacre, killing tens or maybe hundreds of thousands of Palestinians?
I mean the shrillness level of the left’s howls of outrage already goes up to eleven, so what happens if Israel decides to escalate? The howls of outrage cannot get any worse, Israel’s actions can.
By throwing around words like “slaughter” and “massacre” you’re cheapening their meaning and stretching their definition. If Israel is “massacring” Palestinians whether it kills 600 or 600,000 what’s stopping it from going towards the higher number? What is the difference between a massacre and a massacre?
Wow. Excellent point, genius.
Yes, crimes against humanity, like the collective slaughter of hundreds of innocent civilians currently being perpetrated by the state of Israel, should not be seen for the lawless crimes against humanity that the situation is, the situation should be viewed as how many people the state didn’t kill.
Your genius reasoning makes the United States and Israel a true fucking hero every day for not slaughtering everyone with all of the nuclear weapons we have stockpiled.
I think you should petition for the release of Charles Manson, because he, along with Netanyahu didn’t kill everyone.
Genius.
priceless.
At first I couldn’t decipher GC’s last comment to me below, about my punctuation.
The “superior mind” has apparently just spent 90 minutes believing his exchange with me was still with you. Too intelligent I suppose to actually read usernames…
No, you’re missing punctuation before the comma in “A left-turn non-sequitur defense you’re actually an obsessive Greenwald hater…”
Or maybe a “that” or an “is” or both. It makes the meaning ambiguous and the entire comment seem like literary masturbation – a tiny exercise in abstract wordplay.
Failed again you sick fuk, that wasn’t even my first comment to you.
It was, “Maybe you should just “gas ‘em all,” genius…”
Now you’re busted as a liar, too.
My wording was ambitious, maybe incorrect, but not a lie, a mistake. You are really vulgar by the way, besides being incapable of structuring a proper English sentence.
Ambiguous not ambitious. Sorry autocorrect got me there. Also I was always referring to your “non-sequitur” comment, my mistake was failing to identify it as not being your first comment.
Your original comment ended with,”What is the difference between a massacre and a massacre?”
I can think of few things more vulgar than attempting to nuance the intentional targeting of even 1 child running for cover. Put some clothes on liar, you’re naked.
I don’t get your obsession with lying. I didn’t lie. I admitted to a mistake, which I made, and that’s that. Also I don’t get your nakedness reference. Wouldn’t people be lying to me if I had no clothes on?
Wouldn’t people be lying to me if I had no clothes on?
It depends on what they say while observing your, ahem, shortcomings. ;-}
That’s probably true. I use lube when I masturbate and when I buy a tube at my local drugstore it lasts me a whole year.
That’s not what I said at all. For the intellectually challenged lefties I’ll explain again…
When you see that Israel begins an offensive in Gaza and decide that you wish to express your opposition for said action, you don’t go full blown crazy, foaming at the mouth, howling with outrage and indignation because YOU my dear moron are shooting YOURSELF in the foot, robbing yourself of the ability to express more outrage if and when Israel escalates its actions. Was it clear enough for you?
You snidely refer to me as a “genius” but like so many others here you fail at the simple test of reading comprehension. What a fucking moron.
GC, you sound like an angry little fellow and this will make you angrier. You r argument is baseless and wrong.
I meditate. I’m calm. You comments doesn’t make me angry, it just makes me wonder why you bother? You made no effort.
Don’t mistake trolling with anger. I take great pleasure at the lefties’ impotent rage. I’m actually enjoying it.
You’re your own worst enemy. No one need bother to debate you because no one could top making an ass of you better than you do of yourself.
And yet they all come running, shoving each other to the side just for a chance to swing at me. You too apparently, since you couldn’t help but commenting.
Keep it up, your impotent rage is delicious.
.. so basically.
Why spray your shorts as hundreds are being murdered, when y’all should be saving the ‘money shot’ for when thousands are massacred.
You’re one sick fuk’. (.. but, this you know)
Well, yes.
Oh and the priceless comment is indeed priceless. It’s idiots all the way down on the left, isn’t it?
Maybe you should just “gas ’em all,” genius…
Case in point.
Oh Glenn Greenwald. Your prose is good (if somewhat dry), you make good points, and this is the crowd that turns out to read it. It’s like you made Pulp Fiction and the crowd came in expecting to see Transformers.
A left-turn non-sequitur defense you’re actually an obsessive Greenwald hater, while leaving behind your great epiphany that murdering fewer innocents than they might otherwise somehow makes it alright, does little to validate any critical thinking skills and your claims of superiority?
Case in point.
Cool. Let’s cover up our inability to read and comprehend a discussion with wordplay. That will prove we’re smart.
I wasn’t proving “we’re” anything, but you’re definitely something.
Thanks bud. You also seem to be missing some punctuation at the beginning of your original comment.
Dude, just give it up. You had a really fucking stupid idea on a whim, and the very first poster exposed how idiotic it was.
To rephrase: what do you think a “massacre” is, genius?
Do you think it’s killing 10,000 civilians, genius?
What happens, genius, if Israel kills 10,000 civilians in Gaza, and the next rat-brained commenter comes here and says “Oh, that’s not a massacre! 100,000 dead is a massacre! How on EARTH will you be able to distinguish the two if Israel decides to escalate?!”
Hey, genius, what do we do now? What EVER do we do? You can always kill more people!
Lol. What a mouth-breathing simpleton.
I love it how leftist idiots keep dismissing their superiors as “simpletons” or, snidely as “geniuses”. Keep up dummy.
Just give it up, GC. You had a breathtakingly stupid thought and blurted it out on a whim. You were called out on it almost immediately. Just go.
To rephrase:
Hey, genius! What happens if Israel decides tomorrow to kill 10,000 civilians in Gaza? Is that a massacre, genius?
But what happens, genius, if then another rat-brained commenter comes along and says “oh NO, how DARE you call that a massacre! Now what’s to stop Israel from killing 100,000 civilians?! Oh, left-wing extremists, what have you done?!”
What happens then, genius?
Dude, I already admitted to trolling about 21 minutes before you posted this comment. I could continue trolling you, you know, since you don’t read the entire thread apparently, but that is not longer fun.
Admitting to trolling doesn’t mean you “win”, because other people “fell for it” and got upset, GC. It just makes you a contemptible person. You make the world a worse place.
Well, how many died in the Boston massacre, Stockholm, Crow’s Creek, Jamestown…? Were they not massacres? Perhaps look at historic examples of massacres before making absurd false claims. “Slaughter” and “massacre” are perfectly relevant terms used to describe what’s going on. I will never fully understand (besides obvious religious contentions) the “Israel can do no wrong” crowd. Then again, I’m in no way surprised that most in the US feel that way – the MSM’s superfluous, pro-Israel, government lap dog propaganda regarding the conflict is masterful.
The problem with the MSM, as Max Blumenthal put it, is that they’re “predominantly male, predominantly white and heavily Jewish.”
You can hear it here around 7:20:
http://www.mediachannel.org/max-blumenthal-on-the-soul-of-israel/
Okay I concede the point. I do take issue with the propaganda part of your comment (sorry, I don’t know the proper quote syntax here, otherwise I’d do a quote).
You are basically saying “I’m smarter than most because I can see through the propaganda”. I find that to be a very arrogant notion. If you look closely you’ll see that it’s pervasive in virtually all discussions on the internet. “I’m using Android, hence I’m smarter than all you Apple fanboys” is the one I encounter most often. It’s not hard to see when you know what to look for and it doesn’t contribute to a healthy debate.
I also found that once you get used to the howls of outrage, they have very little effect. My appeals for people to properly calibrate their howls of outrage were mostly in vain.
You are sharp Benny, whoever you are behind that name. Honestly.
Indeed, Duce, as you found out with the generals. The people’s moods were one matter, the fickle nature of the Comando Supremo and the royal palace quite another.
I’ve seen a few “death to arabs” and “arabs are sons of bitches” videos, and it makes me feel that the Israelis wouldn’t really mind killing a 100,000 Palestinians. They might even enjoy it. The real problem you see, GC, is, for that to happen, Israel has to come up with a whole different public propaganda approach. They have to go back to the drawing board and stop saying, “we’re only just trying to kill hamas,” and start saying things like, “the palestinians are cockroaches” or devils, or parasites, etc. Something like that. I’m sure you guys could do it. I’m confident that the US media would fall right in line, maybe fewer of them, but still probably a lot of them.
But let’s face it, you don’t need to kill hundreds of thousands of palestinians, to do a little live testing of military weapons, so you can sell them later, do you?
No Mr Atheist, the question I posed was, how are you going to respond to that? Say Israel kills 600,000 Palestinians, if you’ve used up all your ways of expressing outrage at Israel’s actions early on, when the death toll was lower, how will you be able to escalate your criticism of Israel when you have no vocabulary left?
Well my point is, that it’s never going to happen. It’s not part of the strategic calculation of the Israeli govt.
Anyway, my outrage is not a planned one. I come here and go to other sites, when I feel outraged. If Israelis kill more and more people, then maybe I’ll start shouting at the dinner table, instead of just at the tv and the computer. Maybe I’ll start shouting when I’m with my friends, and tell them they need to shout with me if they wanted to remain my friends. I don’t know what I’d do.
But I can guarantee you, it’s not going to happen. Israeli actions in Gaza don’t seem to serve any military objective. It’s only like a “let me show you my big stick” kind of deal, so I can sell my stick elsewhere. Why would Israelis need to kill 600,000 Palestinians? As I said, even if they wanted to do for the most sadistic of reasons, they’d most surely lose the propaganda war, and even the Chinese will then join BDS. How’s that going to help Israel. It’s not going to happen. Not because Israelis aren’t sick bastards, but because it serves no useful purpose.
Fair enough. You actually seem like a decent human being, unlike some of the scum in these comments. My hat’s off to you.
Well GC, it sounds to me like you’re trying to argue in good faith, unlike some arguments for Israel I see here.
Even if you feel cornered on forums, you shouldn’t feel that way, because in reality, it is you who have the power. Norman Finkelstein said, “How do you know when someone is telling the truth? When that person speaks against his own self-interest. That’s when you know that person is telling the truth.”
I don’t know what Glenn Greenwald’s religious proclivities are, but listen to people like Max Blumenthal, or Sam Seder, both practicing Jews, not atheists. Listen to what they have to say and try to argue with them inside your head. Call in to the Sam Seder show with your questions if necessary. What they are saying is clearly against their own self-interest. There is no reason for me to doubt the sincerity of what they’re saying.
Don’t feel cornered on the forums. Leftists are not anti-semites. We just want everyone to get along.
Cheers.
Damn you Atheist. Your comment is so disarming. Sadly I wasn’t arguing in good faith. I took a contrarian position at first, because, well I like it, and it turned to pure trolling later because I was annoyed at some people here.
That is not to say my points were conjured out of thin air, but my words were aimed at generating rage, which, to be fair, I enjoyed, when it was coming from the bad people.
Here’s another reason. If everytime you felt like putting these vermin Palestinians in their proper place, so you could have another hilltop, or water reservoir without any problems, you killed 600,000 of them,… sooner or later you’re going to reach 6,000,000. Then how’re you going to cry about your own suffering? It would be kind of a hard propaganda to pull off now wouldn’t it?
You should give the Israeli leadership more credit. By killing only a few thousand every time they get an itch, they’re displaying real foresight.
“I mean the shrillness level of the left’s howls of outrage already goes up to eleven, so what happens if Israel decides to escalate? The howls of outrage cannot get any worse, Israel’s actions can.”
Let me help you… you disingenuous little pustule on the face of humanity. We will turn the outrage up to 11.5, or maybe 12, or 13 if needs be. Does that clear it up for you? What a fine little fascist you are. Shine up your boots, smack your little whip against your thigh (don’t over-pleasure yourself), goose-step over to your keyboard and type some more of your amazingly witless garbage. I can’t wait.
The dial only goes up to 11. Sorry buddy. Try again.
But the number of people howling at 11 can increase. Israel can cement that it is the Pariah of the Western World.
thank you, atheist in chief. calling anyone who points out Israel’s fault lines is “a leftist” is tired, cheap, and lazy. nothing is that simple but in lock step right wing christendom it has to be in order for those to agree to be lied to. so “GC” can women up and stop the whining and engage in real dialogue that helps not enflames.
GC – Was the Hebron Massacre, in which (if memory serves) 67 Jews were killed by Arab mobs in a 2-day period in 1929, not a “real” massacre? Or the Passover Massacre in 2002, when Hamas killed 30 Jews in a day? Did we Jews misname those events? Did we cheapen the meaning of a word? Were our howls of outrage excessive?
The only howls of outrage at those events were, and are, coming from the Jews. Most of the bottom feeding scum in these comments would cheer and hand out candy to strangers at the mention of those events (See Mona’s cheerful, casual indifference to Israeli deaths).
That’s not true GC. Nobody likes a massacre, Jewish or otherwise. Maybe a few Palestinians might cheer. But can you blame them?
Don’t feel cornered on the forums. If you’re truly trying to figure out how you feel about something, ask the question. There’s enough reasonable people here to give you a legit answer with examples and links if necessary.
Cheers.
Now, I’m supposed to shriek in indignation, and demand that you show where I did this. But I’m not going to.
Instead, I return to Gator’s questions, and ask you:
Well?
No, they aren’t massacres. It doesn’t take away the gravity of those events, but the number of deaths doesn’t really qualify them as massacres.
If you believe they aren’t massacres, do you plan to excoriate the Jews who use that term to describe these events? Have you already done so?
Absolutely not. I’m not suicidal.
Any argument that seeks to marginalize one Massacre, by hypothesizing a greater Massacre is at the height of indifference, which is to say speaking from the heart of the burning pits of the most tortured minds of men. A Massacre is a Massacre is a Massacre.
So you’re saying all should sit back and say ho-hum, it could be so much worse? Let’s wait until it gets bloodier, more destructive before we raise our voices against it? You obviously don’t give a damn about the many individual Palestinians who are suffering and dying here. It’s just a group of beings who have no meaning in your mind, but might if enough of them are slaughtered. Such a disgusting attitude.
It’s hard to care about people who hate you.
Nine month-old babies hate you? Oh you poor, misunderstood thing.
If Israel is “massacring” Palestinians whether it kills 600 or 600,000 what’s stopping it from going towards the higher number? What is the difference between a massacre and a massacre?
Genocide.
Above comment addressed to GC should be formatted thus:
—————————————————-
Genocide.
That’s a pretty inexpertly performed genocide if it only kills at most 15% of the target people.
Are you disappointed ?
Disappointed at what? A hypothetical genocide of 600,000 people that hasn’t occurred yet?
600,000 people is a genocide, or a strong showing of getting there. At that point, it would leave “massacre” behind, and one could speak of “genocide.
I dare them to nuke themselves(how else would they kill all the Palestinians within).Killing them conventionally will kill way too many Israelis for their crazy publics approval.
SENT TO JOHN KERRY : UNARMED PALESTINIAN CIVILIAN KILLED BY iSRAELI SNIPER FIRE.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=620658354719856
I’m NOT HAPPY WITH THE US STANCE ON ISRAEL. SANCTION THEM! OR BETTER YET, NUKE’EM! i’M SICK OF ISRAELS CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY AND THE US STANCE TO PROTECT THEM. qUIT PROTECTING THEM, THEY DON’T DESERVE IT.
This may explain the USA’s continued support of Israel to a point. The whole story isn’t there, but apparently the US government pays Israel for Chemical and biological weapons research at Israel Institute for Biological Research (IIBR) There isn’t much news coming out of this organization though. It does seem to be a work around for the US government which has signed a biological and chemical non proliferation treaty.
http://www.haaretz.com/…/what-goes-on-behind-the-walls…
http://israelspy.com/at-israels-secret-biological…/
This is an old file from 1993 on Israels chem and bio weapons manufacture. http://www.anthrax.osd.mil/docu…/library/proliferation.pdf
Also one of Israels weapons companies stands to make a fortume on weapons proliferation.
http://www.rafael.co.il/marke…/SIP_STORAGE/FILES/3/923.pdf
personally I’d rather just not know if I were going to be killed in one minute.
The Israeli moral high ground: We give the
people in Gaza a 60 second warning that
they are going to die before we kill them.
Unless it is a hospital we’re going to strike.
We do that without warning since the patients are near death anyway. Why
bother? If doctors and nurses get killed,
we didn’t mean it. Does and other country
give a 60 second warning? We don’t think
so.
Thank you. Keep up the good work of exposure but be careful the Israelis don’t come after you too.
What are they trying to do rob us all of our
humanity? There must be a decent human
being in a leadership position somewhere
in the world who can put an end to this. God knows there are none in the US.
Many of the spiritual teachers I appreciate come from the US or live there. They are the less timid and do not hesitate to make mistakes. And rise by doing so.
Pat Robertson?
I keep my sources private ;-)
Take out Bibi…end of problem! What a scumbag liar!!
Israeli military policy:
Everyone in Gaza is a human shield. So…….
This just posted recently at DKos. The Green Shirt sniper video.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/07/21/1315698/-The-Gaza-War-horrors-nightly-news-won-t-show
This is “telegenic” too.
This is when it becomes unbearable to
watch anymore. I can’t do it .
Daily Kos…really?! Why the hell should that have any bearing!?
Awful site/blog!!
Did you click through? The footage was not on Big Orange, they just aggregate and post stuff. The original medium is the message, not DKos.
That was murder of an unarmed non-combatant, by a sniper who clearly had him in line of sight, and who cold have — must have — known that he was not a legitimate target. The sniper will get away with it. Heat of battle, young male target and all that. Effective, multi-decade dehumanization of the target population, and group guilting of each individual within it. It all adds up to a pass for the killer.
However, it was murder. Even given the circumstances. Especially by the third shot.
I wonder how often during the past 3 decades things like this have gone unrecorded in Gaza. Seeing it, any sensible viewer has got to ask, was the sniper “just following orders?” Was he following protocol? Even if that protocol was carefully non-written, was it clearly understood and were his actions in line with it? Dollar to donuts, yes. He knew he was in the clear, from his first shot to his last.
I started watching this yesterday. I only made it part way before I became sick. Couldn’t even finish watching. Every single Congress asshole should have this shoved in their face. Unfortunately, these shameless bastards will just vote for more funding for Israeli weaponry. They make me vomit.
Israeli officials and their American supporters are making the absurd argument that Israel is showing its superior humanitarianism by warning Gazans to leave their homes before bombing them. Some people seem to believe that Gazans are partly to blame for the large civilian death tolls because they just won’t flee. Apparently, if someone tells you they are going to blow up your house tomorrow, and you don’t flee, then what happens to you is your own damn fault. Many Palestinians of course have been terrorized from their homes, a clear sign of superior Israeli humanitarianism.
Israel most definitely has a right to self-defense, but don’t the Palestinians as well? What are they to do when Israel encroaches their territory with illegal settlements, maintains an economic blockade and generally oppresses them? The end of these injustices has to precede peace negotiations, not be used bargaining chips in peace negotiations.
I guess the lives of Eastern Ukrainians, who are being bombed by Kiev with the support of the US, are just not as important as the lives of Palestinians. EqualityNow!
I wonder why the Left, who has condemned Putin for his anti-gay politics, and with ample reason, have not held Hamas to the same standard. I have some theories as to the reason why. Maybe it is because the lives of gay people are much better in the West Bank and Gaza than they are in Russia?
I don’t know, maybe after more than 60 years of of one side enclosing the other in an open air prison, we’ll get as involved. In the meantime, you can keep insinuating it’s antisemitism.
Not my insinuation at all, but perhaps your own hang up. My insinuation is that if Ukrainians looked like Palestinians, the Post-Modern-Left would feel its paternalistic duty to help, but since they don’t look like Palestinians, there are preconceived notions, even though both nations live in poverty, yet Palestinians certainly live in far more overcrowded areas.
And, as for your comment concerning time-span – 25 years of NATO encroachment is not enough? As far as the Russians are concerned they have been warding off imperialists since the Japanese invaded on the East, the US in two campaigns invaded after the revolution on the East (American Expeditionary Force Siberia) and on the West (Polar Bear Expedition), and France too, which goes back to Napoleon. Crimean War too, and that included the Ottomans. Would you like to discuss history?
I got nothing against Russians. And if you’re asking me for my personal views, then I’ll tell you that the Russians have every right to be wary of Nato. Nato broke every promise in the book about not encroaching eastwards. And I’m on the side of the Russians also, when it comes to whether they can have Crimea or not.
Glenn Greenwald on the other hand has personally been writing about constitutional issues, the national security state, and Israel / Palestine, and I’ve been reading him since 2008.
I suppose The Intercept can start covering Ukraine, but you’ll have to give them some latitude, as they’re still building up their roster of experts on various subjects.
It’s more like Greenwald is fixated on US and Israeli policies. I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting on any significant coverage that goes beyond those two subjects. After all, his only article about Syria – a war in which over 170,000 people have died – was when Israel bombed a weapons depot in Syria (at least as far as I know at the Guardian).
It’s what I call selective concern for human rights based on his narrow political interests.
My personal favorite on the Russia / Ukraine subject is Patrick L Smith of Salon. If you’re interested in reading discerning coverage on the subject, just google his name and click on the Salon link.
Thanks for the heads up, Atheist!
Hypocrisy, incompetence and cold inhumanity: Ukraine heads for its most gruesome hour
http://www.salon.com/2014/07/11/hypocrisy_incompetence_and_cold_inhumanity_ukraine_heads_for_its_most_gruesome_hour/
Yes, it’s true that some atrocities get more attention than others. In some cases they are accompanied by injustice and oppression, or they are the result of a struggle between the wealthy and the poor, the strong and the weak. That does make a difference.
I do think that if a non-US-aligned government were killing opposing forces as much as Ukraine is, you’d see a lot more mainstream attention given to it.
Yes,Putin,who didn’t originate the bill,signed it ,as he had the overwhelming approval of the Russian population,and does what his people wish,totally contrary to our 5% approval rated traitors.
This image was on Mondoweiss today. fkn fantastic.
http://internationaltimes.it/wp-content/uploads/Gaza-1.jpg
mia farrow ?@MiaFarrow 4h
Doctors were in surgery when rockets hit Gaza hospital, amputating nurses hand. Patients killed. HT #BBC
Journalist Ali Abunimah believes Israel is being defeated in Gaza. He invokes Israel’s bad experience taking on Lebanon, and also says:
Not sure I’d be that optimistic, but I recommend reading whole thing and then decide for yourselves: http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/israel-being-defeated-gaza-it-was-lebanon
Great piece, Glenn! Wonder who influenced the premise….
You might be wondering – “Mr. Blacklisted, Unemployed & Pissed, why are you making this so personal?” Ask your overlords, they know what’s up. And, of course – “How can you do this now?” What better time than now to expose the hypocrisy of those who masquerade as the ones exposing hypocrisy? Do you practice what you preach?
It is true that you got caught the in the crossfire, Glenny-Boy, but… I don’t like you at all! You’re a slick maneuvering opportunist… you know what I think. Also, there is one point to your article I would like to contend, and that is Mr. Kadouchebag meriting the highest respect. Gatekeepers who can’t think for themselves get no respect! I know…. but the Egyptian Revolution and Gaza and…. yeah, and your bank accounts too! How much does Mrs. Goodman make a year? Scahill? And, shit… Chris Hayes?
Where’s your piece on MH17, Glenn? Will Omidyar let you write about that, or do we have to wait for you to ride on Abby Martin’s coattails?
Tudaloo :D
Analysis of al jazarea casualty data reveals that 66% of palestinian “civilian” dead are males between the ages of 18 and 38.
So? Do you have a point to make? If so, please make it.
You are saying they most definitely don’t use women and children as shields correct?
(shhh…of course not,he’s implying they are really terrorists.)What a schlimiel(sic).
Palestinian Documentary:
‘5 Broken Cameras’
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3K-mGWy9iUg
Glen,
I am disappointed in you. Stick with the Snowden revelations and you are my hero. This stuff about liberal beliefs harms your real purpose.
Bob
Years ago before he was Israeli PM the first
time around Netanyahu was thought too
extreme to ever have a chance to become
PM. He was somewhere to the right of Sharon in terms of how he wanted to deal
with the occupation. The attitude in Israel
was basically, “Thank god that guy will never be PM”. That he has won election
three times shows how much Israelis themselves have changed over the past 30 years. In the US it would be like someone
to the right of Ted Cruz becoming president.
Obama SUPPORTS Netanyahu.
(This is a supplemental to, not a contradiction of, your post.)
Obama like every president supports Israel unconditionally. The only president who wasn’t obsequious in his support was George H W Bush. The point I was making is that the far right idiot fringe has came to power in Israel. Netanyahu knows where he heard the phrase “telegenically dead.” It was in a cabinet meeting..
“The basic cause of the conflict is a sustained occupation of other people’s land by the Israelis.” (President Carter)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8a-acMg0aEk
This was president Jimmy Carter. I don’t know what he said during his presidency about it, however, except for what is indicated by what he says in the above short interview (worth watching) – that Israel failed to fulfill their part in agreements made while he was in office. Why is it, do you think, that (basically) every president supports Israel unconditionally? Is it religious superstition, fear, corrupt resource management?
One thing’s for sure: Obama isn’t helping by meekly hoping for the best while fawningly supporting Israel whatever they do.
Carter is a better ex-president than president. He’s the Benjamin Button of
of presidents, living his life backwards.
MHO: Politicians are paid off by AIPAC, they don’t want to be labelled as anti-Semitic, which happens if you utter a syllable of criticism against Israeli policy, and they don’t want to offend the Christian Zionists [who are the most bizarre players in the whole drama].
Of course, the second Intifada had something to do with that Larry. Israelis elected a right winger because of the bad results after the peace process in 2000. Indeed, Israel pulled out of Gaza, but terrorism not only increased but Hamas was elected to power – and you talk about a right wing supremacist organization, they make Netanyahu look liberal.
Isn’t the truth a damning thing Larry?
Assuming arguendo this is true, Hamas does not claim to be liberal Western democracy. Israel does, and is not.
Because of land and immigration laws, they cannot quite reach that plateau, but attacking Gaza has no more to do with their democracy than the invasion of Iraq by the US has anything to do with ours.
…than does you observation about Hamas.
Israel pulled out of Gaza and then hermetically sealed the place with the help of the Egyptians (who do the bidding of the Israelis and US because of the 1.5billion in military aid that is provided by the US). Is it any wonder that the people decided to vote for the the resistance groups in palestine. why would anybody vote for the plo, with abbas and other ‘leaders’ who’re only stashing their own bank accounts while acting as a proxy for the Israeli govt.
You have no argument Craig. Let’s face it. All your posts are filled with half truths, designed to mislead. For anybody who follows the news, including sometimes page A23 of the nyt, it’s pretty easy to see through your “arguments.”
if you mean the “peace process” brokered by Bill Clinton and Rabin, that amounted to giving Arafat a limo and a title. The Palestinians wanted an end to the occupation and when they knew that the “peace process” was intended to maintain the occupation, the rose up against it the only way they could. Yes, it’s damn hard to get at the truth when “peace” is a euphemism for “occupation”.
“…….The Palestinians wanted an end to the occupation and when they knew that the “peace process” was intended to maintain the occupation, the rose up against it the only way they could…..”
They only way they could? No wonder Israel built the wall. It was for peace talks in case the Palestinians didn’t get what they wanted. In reality, Arafat had other options. I agree with his decision to not accept the conditions of the agreement. No one should be forced to accept something that isn’t right. But going to war never has won anything for Palestinians…..yet (except death and destruction).
Eventually, this could work out for Palestinians, but probably not with Hamas in power.
Israel pulled out and the rockets rained in.
I’m still wondering how a guy who wrote Twilight of the Elites can ask Jack Pentagon Pundit Jacobs his expert opinion on anything and still expect to retain even a modicum of credibility.
Editorial Position of the New York Times: “Thumbs Up for Gaza Slaughter”
[snip]
‘Over the weekend, the New York Times sent out a clear signal: the mass slaughter of civilians is acceptable when the Israeli military is doing the killing.
Under the headline “Israel’s War in Gaza,” the most powerful newspaper in the United States editorialized that such carnage is necessary. The lead editorial in the July 19 edition flashed a bright green light — reassuring the U.S. and Israeli governments that the horrors being inflicted in Gaza were not too horrible.
From its first words, the editorial methodically set out to justify what Israel was doing.
“After 10 days of aerial bombardment,” the editorial began, “Israel sent tanks and ground troops into Gaza to keep Hamas from pummeling Israeli cities with rockets and carrying out terrorist attacks via underground tunnels.”
The choice of when to date the start of the crisis was part of the methodical detour around inconvenient facts.
For instance, no mention of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s June 30 announcement that the “human animals” of Hamas would “pay” after three Israeli teenagers kidnapped in Israeli-controlled territory in the West Bank were found dead. *No mention of the absence of evidence that Hamas leadership was involved in those murders.’
http://www.globalresearch.ca/editorial-position-of-the-new-york-times-thumbs-up-for-gaza-slaughter/5392384
* That’s your ‘cue’, Craig Summers..
GlobalResearch.ca is a cue for anyone seeking the truth by those who believe the US knew about 911 before it happened. Aside from that, I fully believe that Hamas was behind the kidnapping and killing of the three teens. But let’s say they had nothing to do with the murders. The fact that Hamas leader, Meshal, praised the kidnappers when it was reported that they were missing, and did NOT condemn the killings when the teens were found dead, only increased suspicion. This happened after Hamas formed a unity government with Abbas – so this did not bode well for a future with Hamas in the government. Indeed, the two suspects were members of Hamas but had a track record of going against Hamas (according to Wikipedia).
It’s all academic now, eh?
There’s a link to the editorial itself if anyone wants to verify. I found the editorial lacking in a real appreciation of the casualties (fatalities and injuries) suffered by the Gazans/Palestinians. It does mention that around 75% of those are civilian. I would say that the editorial falls short in a lopsided viewpoint, although it does call for a cease-fire.
Thanks for the alert, suave.
The criminally under-appreciated Sam Husseini notes:
‘Palestinians in Gaza’ might suffice?
Again from Sam:
Yep. And this makes some liberals blanch. Why? Either the Nakba is or it isn’t. If we can’t recognize the Nakba, we can’t recognize the character of the problem. Either colonialism ends with Geneva or it doesn’t.
Well put. That distills the “conflict” to it’s essence.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOaxAckFCuQ Miko Peled speaking in Seattle. “The General’s Son, talking about the history of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict ….
Is this photo of a young girl escaping with her apparently cherished belonging “telegenic?” Powerful photo. And just so you all know, the photo is not of a horrific wound or death.
You see, they’re not really telegenic until they’re dead. That’s all Netanyahu meant.
We should note tho, Kitt, that if she survives the current massacre, and she is a lesbian, Tel Aviv offers her really hip clubs. #pinkwashing
Max Blumenthal has some worthwhile tweets:
———————-
.@NorenforSenate did you ever stop to wonder why racial outcasts in a walled off ghetto patrolled 24/7 by drones would think to dig tunnels?
@whuddathunk #priceless
I’very watched the Palestinian Israeli conflict since 1965, the year I arrived on the United States, and have come to know over the 49 years since then, that peace was never entertained.
One way or another, the conflict will be kept alive so as to keep the gate open for American hegemony in the region.
Several nations are complicit in this arrangement, and will remain so.
Control of all resources in this part of the planet, which includes major oil and gas deposits, and rare earth minerals in Afghanistan, is the main reason the United States is there to stay.
Imagine (like Netanyahu must imagine) how many ‘telegenically dead’ people he will be able to dismiss with his sixth nuclear arms capable submarine with fresh delivery by Germany, speaking of history of mass dead:
http://asiandefencenewstoday.blogspot.be/2012/03/germany-to-supply-israel-with-its-sixth.html
I don’t know what word could be invented to surpass criminal stupidity, but we’re looking at it
I’ve said it before:
http://ronaldthomaswest.com/2013/05/14/gods-chosen-a-dumb-idea/
“God’s Chosen is a Dumb Idea”
quote”I don’t know what word could be invented to surpass criminal stupidity, but we’re looking at it”unquote
note to self.. file under
quotes that go for the jugular. Save.
btw, your blog is ….well, let’s just callit #splendid.
That Netanyahu finds dead Palestinians attractive at all makes me think he needs serious therapy.
In its desire to portray its victims as sub-human in order to attempt to excuse the devastating violence they inflict, Israel is ironically displaying monstrously inhuman qualities.
Obama does the same thing when attempting to excuse his killings of civilians in Afghanistan, Yemen, Somalia and Pakistan, sometimes asserting the unbelievable “they were near an imminent threat to the US” to his wretched behavior whenever he can.
Being young, I hadn’t looked at the Israel/Palestine situation particularly before, and have been surprised beyond words that pro-Zionist propaganda holds the US media in such thrall, but it seems to me the purported excuse for Netanyahu’s behavior is the same kind of excuse Obama uses for killing people, and it can be no coincidence that the people they both wantonly kill and try to de-humanize are Muslims.
That fag Glenn Greenwald should be forced to move to an Islamic nation. Let’s see how long his gay ass would survive.
You know, it’s true that more horrific things happen all the time around the world and noone cares.
But the hypocrisy and the media monopoly, combined with the fact that the US elected officials support this thinly veiled terrorist behavior is what makes the Gaza situation so especially horrifying and a situation for which American are responsible.
Asaad is known to be a monster. But the Israeli government still thinks people will see it as heroic – wish we could end the lies as a precursor to ending the massacre.
Man that’s very well said
Glenn, your quotation is missing part of what Netanyahu actually said. If you go to the actual video (http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/20/world/meast/mideast-crisis-blitzer-netanyahu-interview/) Yahu says:
I don’t knew who this “somebody” is, if it has an ounce of credibility, or if Netanyahu is making it up, but its exclusion from the actual quote is super sketchy. I think using forward.com as your source is the problem…
Nate, you twit, nothing in the expanded quote of Netanyahu salvages the monstrous nature of his “telegenically dead Palestinians.”
Anyone using that phrase unironically, is evil. Your failure to acknowledge this is , why yes, the word is: “sketchy.”
Correct. However, the critical point in Glenn’s post is not the comparative quotes, it is:
“Anglo-American law has long recognized that gross recklessness is a form of intent”
The Israeli government is aware of the crowded, ghetto-like conditions in Gaza, and the poverty that prevents most civilians from fleeing. The dense, urban environment makes killing mainly non-combatants inevitable. They know this, and have know it for decades.
The Likud governing elite know that they cannot eradicate Hamas by military means, not even with a ground invasion. The rocketeers are giving them the cover they need to engage in a little minor ethnic cleansing. Both Hamas and the Likud benefit from the conflict; normal men and their families lose. We pay for it all, either through direct aid to Israel, or in a tertiary way, via petrodollars that sift through the Arabian peninsula and on, towards “Islamic charities” that benefit Hamas.
There is a great deal of “gross recklessness” going around just now. We could address ours….. if only we would.
“Expanded Quote”? No, it’s just called “The actual quote.”
Are you truly trying to excuse the fact that that quote is incomplete and therefore incorrect? This isn’t something as simple as a missing conjunction, improper tense, etc. This is missing contextually significant information. For example, isn’t there a difference between John Doe saying “Mona is the real twit” versus saying that “Someone on TI said Mona is the real twit”?
Sure it could be evil. But it could also be true. Would you really be surprised if both the “good” and “bad” sides used propaganda? That’s not the point though!! The “evilness” of what Yahu said is irrelevant to the fact that this quote is WRONG! Mona, put on the other shoe and imagine something Glenn said being misquoted or taken out of context (irony alert: https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/490997278807969795), would you just gloss over it as you are right now!?
And yes, misquotations are are something any respectable journalist would fret over. And honestly, mistakes happen. I think Glenn could update the quote and still make nearly the exact same point, but also mentioning that Yahu never points out the “someone” or an example of this.
Um no, it is entirely accurate. And the meaning could be distorted only if “telegenically dead Palestinians” had been preceded by something like: “no one moral would say that Hamas is using.” But it didn’t, there is no distortion, and what Glenn quoted is not disputed as being accurate.
The tweet to which I responded was this one, from Jamie Weinstein:
“Speechwriters”: that was OBVIOUSLY talking about David Frum, who was a Bush speechwriter at the time. Weinstein was trying to say that because he was merely a speechwriter, Frum shouldn’t be held accountable for the war (as Fisher attempted to do).
In response to that, I pointed out that propagandists for aggressive war have been previously tried as war criminals. I was CLEARLY AND OBVIOUSLY talking about Frum, who – whatever you think of him now – was not a journalist at the time. He was a government employee.
Max Fisher’s claim that I said that journalists who disagree with me should be prosecuted is an out and out fabrication. Even if you want to believe he was just mistaken in his interpretation – a pretty egregious error – numerous people (including me) have since made clear that I said nothing of the sort, and yet he has left his original false claim unretracted, uncorrected, and undeleted.
That is enough, to me, to convert an error into a lie.
And I think your retort is justified. I just think it’s a shame that Max attacked you when your comment clearly wasn’t aimed at him. I think he would have been less defensive if he knew it was at Frum.
He could have said ‘prosecuted’ – that would have implied a respect for due process – but he actually said ‘sent to prison’. That would imply you had authoritarian tendencies. So I’m pleased you chose the word ‘prosecuted’ instead, since it indicates you recognize there may be mitigating circumstances for disagreement. I always believed in the power of redemption; that someone who formally renounced their erroneous beliefs during the trial should be given a reduced sentence.
And that tweet of Glenn’s? He’s not objecting to being misquoted or taken out of context. He’s pointing out a total fabrication of anything he has said. Vox’s Max Fisher had the chutzpah to tweet:
Which is not true, on any level. It is a lie.
This is one of those statements which sounds reasonable, but should be carefully scrutinized. Mr. Greenwald may have won awards and been recognized as a serious journalist, and lesser journalists certainly have no right to disagree with him. But he is not an actual government official so that disagreement should not be criminalized. Surely revoking their journalistic licenses for a period of 6 months would be sufficient punishment?
Il Duce writes:
Not too carefully tho, Benito. Except to note the lack of direct quote, or link to same.
When I read that twitter comment, I went back to this Max Fisher guy’s feed to see the back and forth exchange.
Apparently, on July 15 Glenn said:
I had no idea if this was just a statement based on some article about propagandists like Goebbels, or was directed at one or all three of the individuals, so I tried to piece together the full exchange for some context. Here’s what turned out to be the highly entertaining play by play!
1. @davidfrum: Vox’s @Max_Fisher erases & corrects his 100% misreport of Israeli casualties in 2nd Intifada
2. @Max_Fisher: I made a mistake so I issued a correction. Will [@davidfrum] issue a correction for helping send 4486 US soldiers to their deaths in Iraq?
3. @Jamie_Weinstein: @Max_Fisher Vox, where avowedly partisan journalists think speechwriters make decisions of war and peace (@davidfrum)
4. @ggreenwald: @Jamie_Weinstein @Max_Fisher @davidfrum Propagandists for aggressive wars have been punished in the past as war criminals
5. @Jamie_Weinstein: @ggreenwald @Max_Fisher @davidfrum U should thank heavens every day Glenn that America is society it is and not society u imagine it is
6. @ggreenwald: @Jamie_Weinstein @Max_Fisher @davidfrum I think it’s sweet you never moved beyond the things you learned in the 3rd grade about your country.
[Days Later]
7. @Max_Fisher: Journalists whom Glenn Greenwald disagrees with should be sent to prison, according to Glenn Greenwald.
So here’s my guess of what happened, because I think there is clearly some confusion here.
I. Max Fisher penned a pretty informative article several days ago (http://www.vox.com/2014/7/14/5898581/chart-israel-palestine-conflict-deaths) showing how lopsided the death toll has been for the Palestinians when compared to the Israelis over the years. So, from the start, it appears Max and Glenn would be aligned on this matter and the importance of reporting how disproportionate the death toll has been lately – which immediately makes onewonder how this convo ended so awkwardly for Max and Glenn
II. On July 15, David Frum pointed out that Max Fisher corrected an error on his news article. The correction by Max, dated July 14 said he had messed up some data that undercounted Israeli deaths, fixed it, and gave credit to the Washington Examiner which found it [kudos to Max].
III. Max Fisher got pissed off and made his comment to David Frum.
IV. Glenn made his propagandist comment, then Jamie and he had some back-and-forth (Jamie is apparently with the Daily Caller, a conservative site).
V. MY GUESS of what happened is that Glenn aimed his “propaganda” comment at either or both Frum and Weinstein but NOT Max Fisher. [It is worth knowing that there is tension between Greenwald and Frum (https://twitter.com/davidfrum/status/469506348431192064)
VI. MY GUESS continues that Max Fisher read Glenn’s “propagandist” quote several days later and thought it was actually directed at himself – i.e. Glenn was saying Max’s mistake had represented propaganda. This of course wasn’t the case but Twitter can be hard to decipher and Max posted his response to Glenn accusing him of equating disagreeable journalism to going to jail, and Glenn then said Max’s comment was a “willfull media” distortion.
V. So in conclusion, MY GUESS is that Max got confused thinking that Glenn insulted him when Glenn had actually taken shots at Frum (and maybe this Jamie guy) In fact, the exchange almost seemed as if it was Glenn and Max versus Jamie and David Frum. So days later Max responded and Glenn, perhaps not realizing Max’s comment stemmed from his incorrect interpretation, thought Max was taking a jab at him and thereful shot a tweet back at him!
VI. Glenn or any others, please chime in. Twitter can be a bastard so I hope I got this right :)
Please excuse my inability to properly count with roman numerals…
Bahahhahahahahahahahahahahaha! Jugular indeed. Like a samurai sword.
damn comment nesting…that was for you Mona. #perfect
The full quote is even worse. This bit, “all civilian casualties are unintended by us…” is just as disgusting as the “telegenically dead Palestinians” bit. Netanyahu has convinced me that he is one of the ugliest human beings who has ever resided on this planet.
Kitt, this is one of the first responses to my posts where you engaged the topic and didn’t insult me. Not being sarcastic, I appreciate it.
Anyways, I don’t agree that it is worse that the current truncated quote, but judging by Yahu’s track record of untruthfulness and spin, I put nearly zero faith in the “someone” who allegedly said it.
The reason I looked up the actual quote was because, even by Yahu’s standards, that struck me as a horrible thing to say and I wanted to hear his tone of voice as he said it. I also wanted to see how Wolf Blitzer responded (he didn’t even acknowledge it).
That’s how I noticed the difference and I think his attribution to someone else is worth correcting the quote.
Re “unintended,” from one of my old legal briefs:
W. Keeton, et al, Prosser & Keeton on Torts section 8 (5th Ed. 1984) (chapter discussing intentional interference with the person); see also id. at pg. 35:
“Intent is broader than a desire or purpose to bring about physical results. It extends not only to those consequences which are desired, but also to those which the actor believes are substantially certain to follow from what the actor does. The actor who fires a bullet into a dense crowd may fervently pray that the bullet will hit no one, but if the actor knows that it is unavoidable that the bullet will hit someone, the actor intends that consequence.”
Changed your mind I see. Greenwald has that effect on people.
Next thing you know, you’ll be changing your mind about more than you might have thought yourself capable of. ;-}
Red herring alert.
BTW, has the well dried up on the NSA revelations? I was under the impression it had not. But you’re right about one thing, I spend more time around here than I would like to admit. Now that I’ve read some GG articles, I am skeptical of every word on the page. In a way it reminds me of my self immolation while arguing people on Fox Nation (so, so bad…), then a ton of time on /r/politics with a nice mix of political views, and now primarily discuss here and on foreign policy’s website. It is part guilty pleasure, part following the NSA stuff like a hawk.
But I digress. How about we return to the subject matter and not try to deflect the conversation elsewhere!?
Red faced alert.
Nate..
The only ‘deflection’ here is your disingenuously feeble attempt at excusing your ‘outed’ hypocrisy.
Nate — I hereby pronounce you resident apologist for the wrongdoing of the powerful.
Pointing out a misquotation earned that title huh?
Jose, you’re better than that.
Evidently, it’s a commentary on a pattern of behavior, not one statement.
Jose, perhaps you could list out the “powerful” entities for which I am an apologist? This should be interesting.
As far as I know, the original quote was from Charles Krauthammer. Not surprising in the least. Doesn’t change the overall point Glenn is making.
As far as I know, the original quote is from Charlie Krauthammer. Not that it changes Glenn’s point, but, since you asked. Not that surprising.
I hate war! War is evil. All war is evil. That said, war is not played tit for tat. The number of dead should be important in considering whether or not a besiege should continue, it is too soon to imply Israel is committing atrocities uncommon to war itself. And we on the left should be careful about being overly empathetic to one side just because it is more vulnerable to a higher death toll. Gaza is not innocent in this situation. I feel my people on the left lose sight of that fact too quickly and become almost rabidly anti-Israel. That willful blindness works to the advantage of Hamas, but it should never be the work of the media to take sides in any conflict.
Gaza is not “innocent?” In what way relevant to the ongoing massacre of Gazans is this true?
No doubt. That would be because many of us *are ardently anti-Zionist. That is, we do not accept blood and soil, ethno-religious, military nationalism. Among the reasons we don’t is because we are not PEPs: “Progressive Except for Palestine.”
A very emotional response, Mona. You missed my first three sentences, or chose to forget them, the same way the media on the left forgets about why Israel is doing what it is doing. Tenth grade journalism is high school taught me that reporting answered Who, What, When, Where and Why? That is real journalism. The second point I learned in tenth grade was the importance of objectivity. If you are “anti=zionist” you are unqualified to be a journalist on this story. But I wasn’t responding to you earlier, I was responding to Glen Greenwald (one of the best journalists in the world), but no one is perfect.
I see. Than you will join me, I am sure, in taking great exception to Wolf Blitzer’s running the War Room on CNN. He’s ac activist Zionist who formerly did PR for AIPAC.
He isn’t objective, and isn’t that just awful?
I don’t watch Wolf Blitzer, so I didn’t come here to discuss whatever your beef is with him. I came here to read Glen Greenwald, my favorite journalist second only to Jeremy Scahill, in my regard, if not equal to each other.
Well, no, you came to express “concern” about Glenn’s purported lack of journalistic objectivity. This is bullshit, and I have told you why.
Yes, that truly is about high school level notions of journalism. When we grow up, however, we understand that there is no “view from nowhere.” That many viewpoints are implicit in what gets covered, what doesn’t, and how.
One also learns from sophisticated journalists themselves, that activist journalism is a long and noble tradition in the United States. Here’s Jack Shafer from Reuters, From Tom Paine to Glenn Greenwald, we need partisan journalism:
It’s a very fine piece on the history of activist journalism in America. Rest here: http://blogs.reuters.com/jackshafer/2013/07/16/from-tom-paine-to-glenn-greenwald-we-need-partisan-journalism/
We need all sides of the story. However, when you get one side here and another over there, chances are the whole story gets diluted. I believe the whole story needs to be told. Activism is for activists. Journalists should leave their opinions at the door. The rise of Op-ed “journalism” has undermined true journalistic integrity, and is leaving the public with cynicism and a lack of trust in all media sources.
Again, no. You clearly are not reading the quotes and links offered to you. To further quote from Jack Shafer’s Reuters piece:
Your commentary is simply ahistorical.
No, you don’t get to dictate how I spend my time. You’re so hysterical, you haven’t even caught that I’m not criticizing Glen. I have spread his work around to as many persons as I can. I have defended his NSA journalism. What you appear to be promoting by virtue of arguing with me, is that it is okay to present one=sided reporting when it supports your side, but mainstream media is always wrong for doing it. I don’t watch/listen to sorkin, gregory, todd, and I don’t know who pincus and farhi are. I believe journalists should report on behalf of the populace–the majority of the public– but they should not get caught doing the very things they criticize corporate-owned media for doing. Siding with either/or is never objective. The death toll in Gaza is newsworthy when it is put in honest context. Last week DemocracyNow! reported on the four Palestinian children hit by an Israeli shell on the beach. That is newsworthy. But in context, Amy’s reporting said this is what the Israeli’s are doing, leading the left to believe that Israel purposely killed those children playing on the beach. That was false context. How many Israelis would be dead from Hamas missiles if Israel did not have a better defense system? Calling Israel’s defense a massacre denotes a deliberate mass killing of Palestinians. No. That is not deliberate. The calculated risk was taken by Hamas when it rejected a cease fire agreement and continued to launch missiles against Israel. I reiterate an earlier comment I made, war is not played tit for tat. When you deliberately blow at the hornet’s nest, the entire swarm will go after you. That’s either just plain stupidity, or purposely drawing fire against oneself so you can manipulate the media’s empathetic core. And the liberal media is eating up the bait. That’s every bit as shameful as when corporate media does it. If they want to distinguish themselves from CNN, MSNBC, FOX, they should actually be different.
Mona, you’re living in the past. As long as you focus on what happened in the past, the past will never change the present. Look to the future, what it is you want, and history can change. Of course, Hamas knows this. You have exactly what Hamas wants, because it cares more about destroying Israel in the public eye than it cares about peace and the life of its citizens. Israel is also foolish for taking the bait. This is a catch 22 for both sides. But that which has been written will come to pass. Each one of us who deals honestly with this situation will not be fooled by the lies spoken by both sides at one table.
Nah. I just know that a wise man once said: “Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.”
He was right. Your ahistorical arguments would indicate why you hold such misguided views about the Israeli massacre of Gaza: you either do not know actual history, or do not let it teach you.
Assuming a reasonable person would have understood what you claim from Amy’s reporting, how do you know it is a “false context?”
And did you not read Glenn’s post above?
I’m quite confident that Amy Goodman understands all that quite well. But if you do not, that would explain why you misunderstood her reporting.
I forgot “how”, WHO, WHAT, WHEN, WHERE, WHY, AND HOW.
One more thing, Mona. Your hysteria over Palestine’s suffering gives evidence to your lack of objectivity. FYI, I see both sides as being in the wrong. In that context, it is easier to be objective. If a reporter cannot be objective, he/she should remove himself from the story until he/she regains control over their opinions.
Like we’re not familiar with that argument. It’s complete BS. There’s no such thing as an “objective” reporter. Calling for “objectivity” is something biased reporters do in order to (1) claim a superior grasp of the facts, and (2) sell us the impression that both sides have been given (or should be given) equivalent treatment.
Indeed, you started by telling us that we can’t possibly blame Israel for something that might be a normal result of armed conflict. You also said something about being anti-Israel. Yet, you didn’t utter the terms anti-Palestinian or anti-Hamas, and you didn’t say there might be reasons for what Hamas does (the who, what, when, etc.) That doesn’t sound very objective to me. It’s pretend objectivity concealing a hidden worldview, which is much worse than being clear about that worldview from the start.
Jose, I never said Israel shares no blame. Now, can you see how subjective you’re being? I said all war is evil. All means all-encompassing. Because I am addressing a problem that progressive journalists have, I have no need to address their being anti-Palestinian, etc. That is not a problem by which they are seduced.
Something we as humans should try to contemplate–all humans, not just journalists– is what exactly is the change we seek? Do we want the Palestinians or Israelis to WIN? If one side wins, war is simmering on the back burner. That resolves nothing. We humans cannot change the past, but we can change the future. So ask yourselves, is advocating for one side of the battle lines going to provide an equitable resolution?
“Love never fails.” That includes loving your enemies. There are no sides to any war that truly seeks a resolution. Both sides bomb the other because they fear letting their guard down. Shit is what happens when constantly being on high alert becomes the way of life. Paranoia consumes each side of the conflict, increasing to outright hatred for one another. Quantity in suffering isn’t greatly newsworthy because if one side lacks the means to protect itself or to counter with equal force, common sense should dictate that they not blow at the bees in the first place. If they are gripped by fear–or hatred– they lack the self-control to not blow at the bees and the blowback to that is a swarm of bees.
Again, you can’t change the past, but you can change the future. Fighting to stop the fighting is quite silly when one contemplates the depth of the problem and doesn’t get caught up in the superficial appearances.
Nonsense on stilts. Moshe Dayan understood perfectly well — in 1956 — why the Palestinians commit violence against Israelis. Dayan at a funeral for a dead Zionist soldier:
The clear-eyed (and monstrous) Dayan understood that no people would passively accept what Zionists did and do to the Palestinians.
I might make it vis-a-vis neoconservatives and liberal humanitarian interventionists in both parties. But I absolutely do make the comparison of Israel with Nazis.
In doing so, I am in the company of Avrahom Shalom, the former director of Israel’s Shin Bet, with whom Glenn, as seen above, also shares company.
Kelly, see, both sides are not equivalent, so they should not be treated as such. One is the oppressor, another is the oppressed. The only viable solution is for the oppressor to stop oppressing the oppressed. The oppressor would like the oppressed to stop fighting back first, but that’s obviously not a rational expectation. The oppressor is the only one who can take the initiative, realistically. In other words, what should Israel do about terrorism? First, stop engaging in it.
Your use of the word “hysteria” to describe or dismiss anyone’s opinions about this ongoing slaughter is so far from “Objective” that it falls completely off of the cliff.
But enough of my opinion about your posts and about your idea of what journalism should and should not be. How about reading Jay Rosen and Margaret Sullivan and a few others? Might you be interested in doing that?
The Raging Debate Over Objectivity and Transparency:
Hysteria is behavioral and is therefore completely observable from an outside objective standpoint.
So, “objectively,” you’re declaring Mona to be “hysterical?”
Do you intend to read what is at the link that I provided on the subject that you seem to think you have the last word on?
Yes, Neil Sheehan opposed the Vietnam war, and so Daniel Ellsberg first took the Pentagon Papers to him. And they were famously then published by the New York Times.
It’s simply shameful, innit?
Mona, again with your hysteria. You haven’t stopped quivering since the first comment I saw from you. Don’t assume it was your first comment, that would lack objectivity. Certainly, journalists have opinions because they are human. When reporting they should guided by the facts that are relevant to the public. The Pentagon Papers were factual, not opinions.
And Greenwald’s piece above is also factual. Netanyahu said what Greenwald reports. As did Joseph Goebbels.
He is a lawyer (as am I) and also makes a good legal analysis of Israel’s patently absurd claims about it’s “non-targeting” of civilians. His legal analysis is accurate.
“And Greenwald’s piece above is also factual. Netanyahu said what Greenwald reports. As did Joseph Goebbels.”
This is where your hysteria causes you to make assumptions. Try taking a breath and listen for once instead of fomenting.
I did not criticize Glen’s article. I came. I read it. Then I read what some were saying about it. I took the opportunity to express a general concern I have with liberal journalists, not glen specifically. but I will take that opportunity to do so right now. Drawing a comparison between yahu and goebels was hyperbolic in the least and dangerous at worst. Should yahu begin collecting up Palestinians like they were infected stray dogs and burning them in mass graves he’d have a point. But the two are not the same. No one is perfect. I make the nazi comparison all the time with the USA’s republican party. I believe the republican party in the US is every bit as much a threat to democracy as are the Muslims who want an Islamic state.
Kelly, it truly is odd that I had the impression you were addressing Glenn Greenwald specifically. Perhaps that is because I mistakenly believed that you understand what you write, to wit:
Forget about winning an argument with Mona, whenever she’s confronted with one she knows she can’t win, like my earlier request to point out my supposedly racist claims, she hightails out of the discussion faster than rocket ship. Typical intellectually and logically challenged pro-Palestinian.
Mona: “-Mona- 22 Jul 2014 at 12:43 am
Kelly, it truly is odd that I had the impression you were addressing Glenn Greenwald specifically. Perhaps that is because I mistakenly believed that you understand what you write, to wit:
But I wasn’t responding to you earlier, I was responding to Glen Greenwald (one of the best journalists in the world), but no one is perfect.”
Yes, generally speaking because this is Glen’s page on The Intercept’s website. My initial comment took no issue with any aspect of Glen’s article. Mona, you love to pick and choose, as if you’re incapable of contemplation. You love to fight just like those whom you are defending. You epitomize the danger associated with partisan journalism by liberal reporters. Pride comes before the fall. It is prideful when a so-called news story is how you are different from corporate media sources. It shows you are just as one-sided as those whom you critique. You have the platform to do reporting with tru journalistic integrity, but instead you are caught up in the tangled web of childish antics of nanny nanny boo boo I’m not like you therefore I’m better than you. If only that was what is needed, to tell the other side of the story. Unfortunately, all it does is give you your own following on minimally informed listeners. Where can the people turn to get the whole story rather than just one side of it?
Kelly, I think you’re being rather condescending, banging on about objectivity while calling those who disagree with you ‘hysterical’. Perhaps this is a microcosm for the problem with aiming for ‘objectivity’. That said, I do think you raise an interesting point and I go back and forth on this topic. I think ‘objectivity’ as it is commonly used is a nonsense word and I feel about the same discussing this topic as I do when someone lectures me about how they are carrying out God’s Will. I’m carrying out the Objective Will Of Platonic Ideals Or An Unknown External Reality or some such thing! Which is totally scientific and objective even though the evidence for it is pretty much on par with God. Alrighty then.
But there is something people are referencing when they talk about ‘objectivity’ that I think is important. Possibly what they mean is ‘more’ information – looking at one, or two, or three of fourteen sides instead of just one. You could call it the view from the mountain top, maybe, instead of the view from nowhere. It’s not ‘objective’, exactly, but it’s a bigger picture of the totality of what is happening. That said, I don’t know that the best way to achieve this is in each individual outlet trying to assume such a view. That might be sort of like one group shouting ‘red!’ and another shouting ‘blue!’ and the news outlets shouting ‘purple!’ as if that sums up the two views – which it doesn’t, really.
I do think views here tend to represent one side. While there is a huge emotional reaction to each Palestinian death, the blood of Israelis generally merits no such response here. There are sites where just the opposite is true. But if it were someone in *my family, on either side, who was killed, I don’t know that some view from a mountain, even keel, monotone description of “there has been conflict on both sides, resulting in feelings of…” would capture that. The story of how Israel looks to Palestine is a reality. The story of how Palestine looks to Israel is a reality. The story of how they both look to a third party observer with no dog in either fight is a reality. I think they are all important pieces of information, and none of them can be fully known from the perspective of the other. How that is best captured in the media I don’t know, but I don’t know that an across the board “We should always go for the mountain top perspective because it’s ‘objective'” is actually the most informative.
Nic, I was planning to leave this with my last reply to Mona. The comment formatting makes it difficult reply directly after a few comments. Then I saw just the beginning of your reply to me. Two things were going on there. I referred to the need for objectivity in journalism. Mona, isn’t a reporter that I know of. All her comments here, or at least the ones in which she engaged me and a few others which I read, has been hysterical bloviating. I know it’s difficult to see that distinction when you have someone yelling in your ear while one tries to express himself. That’s illustrative of how partisan journalism sounds to its listeners who are trying to sort out the newsworthiness inside all the yakking.
Btw, Nic, I’m not a journalist either, I just read it. I’m expressing my frustrations with partisan antics being disguised as journalism. Those who can’t discern the facts between the lines or the questions left unasked end up like Mona.
Nic, I’m taking a short coffee break and found time to read your entire reply to me. Have you ever seen an hysterical person who can’t catch their breath? It usually takes someone bold to throw cold water in their face. Mona is the one being condescending here, towards anyone who in the slightest of ways disagrees with her perspective. That said, the rest of your comment was well thought out. I agree with you. But I don’t think you addressed the obvious glee that comes from liberal journalists when they think they have their gotcha moments, especially against Israel. It is so obvious, it weakens the merit of their reporting. It is no different than when MSM does it. Mona is defending journalists taking a side so long as it’s her side. If you perceive me showing condescension towards that view, you would be correct. Just as the corporate media stirs up frenzy inside their less astute viewers, so does the liberal media. We don’t need a Mona to show that to us, but this Mona should certainly cause conscientious journalists to raise their eyebrows and ask themselves who is their audience? The injured tell a relevant story. The newsworthy story isn’t that someone got hurt, or someone is mourning their loss of loved ones; the newsworthy story is Why did this happen? or Why is this happening? Who, what, when, where, why, and how? A mountain top perspective is not needed to address these facts if journalistic integrity is applied. Genuine investigation is needed. It is unfortunate that the liberal media (my main source for news) has lost sight of that time and time again. Let’s stop believing in ‘us’ and ‘them’. All organizations, religious, secular and charities will always turn towards believing their respective institutions are necessary for establishing peace and we’d have it if everyone just listened to us. Everyone needs to get off the mountain top to stand in the valley of derision, but without forgetting the mountain top is still there.
Hi Kelly, I’m not really sure how to respond here but you wrote a good bit so I feel I should. Sorry for calling you condescending, if that wasn’t your intent then I probably read something into your post that wasn’t there. Regarding your comments on Mona – I don’t know, I feel like I am stepping into some sort of long history here that I don’t understand or have any context for, so I don’t know what to tell you. Sorry for whatever unhappiness you feel regarding that conflict, I guess. Regarding the liberal media – not sure who you’re referencing. If you mean the crowd at TI, my read is mostly suspicion and frustration, not gleeful ‘gotcha!’ thinking. I think Greenwald sounds incredibly frustrated on the topic of Israel, and sees some less-than-honorable intent involved. I don’t know that I agree on that, but then, the problem with intent is that it pretty much always looks honorable or justified from the first person. So which is ‘right’, ultimately – the POV from first person, second person, third, etc…. I think the best we can do is to understand a variety of viewpoints and attempt to make more informed decisions from there.
@ Kelley: ” it is too soon to imply Israel is committing atrocities uncommon to war itself.”
I’ll respectfully disagree. Israel is prohibited from waging war on Gaza by international law governing military occupation. Its duty is to protect the Palestinians in Gaza using only the police power. Israel has no right of self-defense within Gaza territory.
I heartily recommend that you read this excellent essay by Noura Erakat, No, Israel Does Not Have the Right to Self-Defense In International Law Against Occupied Palestinian Territory, http://goo.gl/Wa6SHw (written for non-lawyers).
In fact, Israel was required by the Fourth Geneva Convention to withdraw from occupied Palestine upon the cessation of hostilities after the Six-Day War in 1967 and to allow all refugees to return to their homes. The occupation and confinement of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip itself violates international law, let alone the ultra-violent methods Israel is employing to break the Palestinian Authority’s unity government with Hamas. Israel and U.S. designations of Hamas as a terrorist organization are irrelevant to the governing international law.
Palestine was invaded by Israel in 1967; it is the Palestinians who have the right of self-defense, not the Israelis.
Like it or not Israel resides there. It’s not any more an occupation than those Syrians, Libyans, Jordanians who were prevented from returning to their homelands by their own countries after they lost the 1967 war. Where it starts and where it is now gets complicated when we dig in to all the facts. This conflict can never end as long as one side of occupation delegitimizes the other side. Journalistic integrity demands seeing more than a fly on the wall.
I’m sorry, Kelly. I didn’t realize that you were not interested in “trying to sort out the newsworthiness inside all the yakking.”
You very obviously did not read the article I provided the link to. If you had read it, you would have a glimmer of what “occupation” means in the international law governing warfare. And you would understand that Israel has already committed “atrocities uncommon to war itself.”
I apologize for wasting your time. I thought you were questing for truth, but you obviously have a different agenda.
Best regards,
Paul
Mr. Greenwald
This isn’t journalism, but emotionally driven drivel designed for maximum shock value i.e., “shock and awe” advocacy journalism(?).
Legitimizing the comparisons of Israel with Nazi Germany is absurd and bigoted which grossly distorts the reasons behind the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and/or greatly diminishes the atrocities committed by the Germans during WWII. Jews were targeted, arrested and murdered in Germany because they were Jews. Six million Jews perished. This is equivalent to every man woman and child dying three times in Gaza. Do you have any idea how absurd the comparison is, Mr. Greenwald? And we haven’t even begun to factor in the racial supremacy of the Germans, or the other numerous atrocities committed by Hitler’s Third Reich.
The hard left is fixated on comparing Israel to Nazi Germany and apartheid South Africa – the worst possible regimes in the twentieth century. That’s not just by chance, but is an ongoing propaganda campaign based on lies. These are fabrications meant for maximum propaganda affect and to rally support against Israel. Apartheid was driven by laws which segregated the population based on race. Israel has no such laws. The fringe left purposely maligns Jewish nationalism by equating Zionism with racism. The fringe left purposely maligns Jewish people by calling a Jewish state a racist and supremacist ideal.
This is the typical lies and misinformation posted by the extreme left in their never ending war on Israel – all of it couched in a “humanitarian” concern for the Palestinians. Comparing Netanyahu to Geobels is asinine (and absurd). It would be interesting to see who you might compare Assad to (he’s the dictator of Syria, by the way, responsible for over 170,000 deaths and yes, it’s happening today). The Intercept apparently has no concern for humanitarian issues outside of your narrow political interests.
The left has been adept at using “buzzwords” to delegitimize the Jewish state. Thanks for pointing out exactly why advocacy journalism risk the credibility of the author as well as why this strategy has mostly failed.
You know, you’re really much worse than I thought.
Kitt, did you note that Craig asserts that comparing Israel with Nazis or apartheid South Africa is “based on lies?” Rather oddly, he recites or links to none of these purported lies. Hmmm.
Mona
I think it’s fairly self evident, but that doesn’t keep extreme leftist from making that comparison – and it’s done on a regular basis. Even gator90 said it was OK to make the Nazi comparison yesterday, but he is wrong. It’s not OK.
That response to Greenwald is off the mark since I misread his post. I was a little harsher on Greenwald than I should have been. In fact, I rewrote the post because it took about an hour to publish once I pushed the “post comment” button. None the less, I wanted to address some issues that are common in IP debates which followed naturally from his saying “…..the notion that one is barred from ever citing certain historical examples in order to draw lessons for contemporary conflicts is as dangerous as it is anti-intellectual…….”. Mush of what I wrote, would have appeared anyway – just not the opening sentence. In addition, I would (did) word it differently.
No one is barred from saying anything. However, it’s inappropriate in my opinion (for the reasons I mentioned).
Is former director of Shin Bet, Avraham Shalom, one of these “extreme leftists?” Because he says: “[We’ve become] a brutal occupation force similar to the Germans in World War II.”
“……Is former director of Shin Bet, Avraham Shalom, one of these “extreme leftists?” Because he says: “[We’ve become] a brutal occupation force similar to the Germans in World War II.”…..”
I don’t think this guy was a leftist (at least according to Wikipedia)
“…….Avraham Shalom Bendor (Hebrew: ????????? ??????? ??????????; July 7, 1928 – June 19, 2014) was head of GSS (Shin Bet) from 1981-1986.[1] He resigned after being accused of ordering the killing of two Palestinian prisoners and organising the subsequent cover-up.[2] He was born in Vienna, Austria…..”
I certainly don’t agree with his conclusion comparing Israel to Nazi Germany (although I guess you can call him an expert on Nazi tactics), but I agree that Israel needs to make peace – just not with Hamas (because there can be no peace)
Craig spits foam with:
What and who are these people, Craig? What beliefs are common to all these people that make them these above things? And why are the beliefs you will kindly detail “leftist?”
Aggressive Zionists have declared war on “leftists.” Jewish fascists in Israel are threatening them, and I’ve seen such Zionists online berating these “leftists” for years now. It’s a theme.
Just like it was in a certain country c. 1933.
“……..Aggressive Zionists have declared war on “leftists.” Jewish fascists in Israel are threatening them, and I’ve seen such Zionists online berating these “leftists” for years now……”
Believe me, I have been berating those same Jewish leftist for years. Is berating online a crime now? I suspect you would have been arrested a long time ago if that was the case.
“….Just like it was in a certain country c. 1933……”
Holy fuck, Mona. You have absolutely flipped out.
Yes, because for some reason I think that a certain country and its dominant political party attacked “leftists” in, oh, c. 1933. Where on Earth would I get that from?
Are you sure it wasn’t Iran in 1979?
In other words, as always, Craig has no response to the actual CONTENT of Glenn’s post…or of hanging Nutty WITH HIS OWN WORDS!!!!!
You are such an ass…
Agreed
It absolutely is journalism. He just provided perspective and context for the craziness Israel has become, and not by discussing some sort of hypothetical. It is not absurd to look inside ourselves to find out if we’re as bad as the Nazis. It is fantastical, though to believe that you’re somehow better than the Nazis. That would imply that you’re somehow better than the Germans. We’re all capable of being Nazis. Glenn Greenwald is just pointing out, that the decades of dehumanizing a people, and then systematically lying about the reasons for the dehumanization of a people, and systematically lying about the murder and ghettoization of a people, might even make Israelis behave / comment like Nazis.
To be fair to Greenwald, he’s not even trying very hard.
Thanks for your reply. Yes, Israel has taken a hard line militarily against Hamas, but there is no attempt to systematically round up and murder the Palestinians just because they are Palestinians. I agree that the settlements have taken their toll on the Palestinians. I think that Abbas had taken the right approach by appealing to the international community. I also believe he is right to reject agreements that are not favorable for the Palestinians. It’s a one time shot.
None the less, Israel is not going to sit back while Hamas launches rockets into Israel. While you might disagree with Israel’s harsh response, it has nothing to do with Nazi Germany and it was entirely predictable.
My name is Reuven Moskovitz and I am a Holocaust Survivor: “What happened to me wakes me up every night and I hope we don’t do the same thing to our neighbors,” he said, adding that he was comparing “what I went through during the Holocaust to what the besieged Palestinian children are going through.”
Kitt
She’s wrong. To start with, have any Palestinian children been arrested, shipped in trains to POW camps and gassed? It just seems like we forget exactly what happened in WWII – and what the Nazis represented, and how they targeted people – like Jews, Gypsies, and the handicapped (etc.) rounded them up and murdered them – systematically..
Yes, the Palestinian children are going through hell, as are the Syrian children, some children in eastern Ukraine, Iraqi children, Nigerian children, Afghanistan children, Pakistani children and children all over the world, but the Nazis are a special case nearly unmatched in modern times – and certainly there is no parallel in Palestine. There is no attempt to exterminate anyone.
Genocide became a word in 1944 because of the Holocaust.
Reuven Moskovitz is a he. You commented without even bothering to open the link and read the rest of what he had to say, and perhaps even researching beyond that to see who he is and what he has been saying for a long time.
Sometimes I read links, sometimes I don’t. I got the gist of what he was saying from your provided text. It would not have changed my answer – no matter what he said. It makes sense to me to say you believe the Israelis are callously killing civilians and children – but comparing it to Nazi Germany has an under current of hate – and it simply is false.
It’s fairly obvious I’m not real good with Jewish names…….
Thanks.
That doesn’t explain how you missed the word, “he,” which was written twice in the excerpt that I posted.
Sometimes I skim. It doesn’t matter.
Yes, it matters in that it that you only care about making your point and dismissing or not even considering anything that goes against your point. That was a very short quote so if that is how little it takes for you to “skim” it’s likely that you don’t pay attention at all to anything beyond a few words. You don’t open links to read the contents, you don’t read small excerpts. That’s some aces debating tools you’re using.
Hi Kitt
Good to see you are on fire this morning. I got the point of your (original) post. That’s all that matters. I stand by what i said.
I admit, sometimes I have a problem skimming rather than fully reading a response. This applies to articles as well. It stems from posting at the guardian where if you are one of the first 50 posters, you are much are read by other people – so it’s a race to post.
Here however, I’m learning that people are constantly reading new posts regardless of when you post – so you can take your time.
Thanks. I’ll try to more attentive.
Who supplies Israel with all the Weapons, I let you guess????? Mr Greenwald is a respected Journalist at least he tries to tell the truth
Glenn Greenwald is so bright it hurts. “posit…. If A etc”. If society had more of people like him, we’d be in better shape.
The problem is always the same. In this case it is created by those that revere the identity of being Jewish over that of being human.
This article has been on Reddit for 4 hours. But there is only one comment and, well, I just don’t know.
Which part of this don’t you understand? Honest. I’m not being sarcastic.
Well, GG is a reasonably well- known writer, The Intercept is at the cutting-edge of journalism, so, what’s the reason the Hasbara are ignoring the article? Normally in this period of time the whole Zionist history of the world would have been explained several times. The benevolent functions of flechettes explained by the chosen. I feel this represents a sort of snubbing. Perhaps.
There would be a lot more outrage from the “liberal” side of the coin if there were a Republican president. Right now it is hard to even find a Democrat that thinks there is anything wrong with the NSA reading your emails. And we know Chuck Schumer agrees with Bibi that Hamas is killing the Gazans and not the angles of death that comprise the Israeli Army.
I know how to solve this — I really do — Ok. — Here it is:
Mass protests, effigy burning and mayhem in front of Israeli embassies in Jordan and Egypt. That will get the whitehouse to panic and say: “oh oh oh! the conflict is spreading! it could destabilize “moderate allies” in the region. Extremists could exploit the unrest. This is getting out of hand. it could evolve into violent revolution. STOP! STOP! STOP!
Problem Solved!!
I have just seen a list of people in all levels of US Government, including the Supreme Court, who hold or can immediately access, DUAL CITIZENSHIP IN ISRAEL. Go to ask.com and take a look for yourself. No wonder Feinstein, Boxer, and Huffman refuse to answer my question about their own citizenship. They claim the 4th Amendment. Where’s mine? Anon Forrest
Speaking of intent in regards to Gaza, from Jon Schwarz’ invaluable archive:
This is the candid quote of an Israeli demographer name Arnon Soffer in 2004, of Haifa University. Why that might be important is explicated in Jon’s post.
http://www.tinyrevolution.com/mt/archives/002760.html
In addition, here’s Dov Weisglass, Ariel Sharon’s chief adviser, on the intention of Gaza policy.
“until Palestinians turn into Finns”. What’s the difference between Palestine and Finland, afterall?
The frankness of the Israeli elite can be quite remarkable at times. International sanction has its perks.
link to the Weisglass quotes
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/top-pm-aide-gaza-plan-aims-to-freeze-the-peace-process-1.136686
Finns are civilized while the Palestinians are… not so much. http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21606284-civilisation-used-lead-world-ruinsand-only-locals-can-rebuild-it
I don’t think a political situation should be seen as representative of whether a group of people is “civilized,” especially when the situation has been created or complicated by other actors. (Western involvement, like coups, in the region, as an example)
Regardless, I don’t think it’s a particularly good idea to label an entire group of people as uncivilized. It reeks of intentional efforts to dehumanize one’s opponents, and the logic of colonialism. I don’t know if you intended it that way, but that is how many people will read it.
Open bigotry is very off-putting for most readers. That’s part of what I mean about you sucking at this. (Subtle bigotry is much more effective…)
I have no bigotry towards Arabs. There is no shame however in saying that the Palestinians are not at the same level of development as Finns – any way you slice it: culturally, economically, scientifically, religiously, politically, whatever. There is no shame in saying this because it’s the truth.
The self-awareness is not strong in this one.
Cryptic comments without explanation are not conductive to discussion. Just saying. I’m not a bigot and I have no need to justify myself to you.
If you mean that Israel is also less developed than Finland that would be true in some respects but false in others. Israel ranks higher on the human development index for example.
Israel purports to be a liberal Western democracy. It is not.
Israel ranks #96 on the Press Freedom Index. It has an established religion, Orthodox Judaism, such that fundamentalist Jews control much Israeli law — Reform rabbis may not perform marriages in Israel, there will never be gay marriage. Until just recently, evolution was not taught in Israeli schools, and human evolution still is not.
The State of Israelis founded in military ethno-religious, blood and soil nationalism, a 19th and early 20th century notion that led to Mussolini and, well, You Know Who. It is the antithesis of a liberal Western democracy.
To get a flavor of the evil that is ethno-religious Israeli nationalism, see this Max Blumenthal piece on some of the genocidally inclined popular Israeli rabbis, How to Kill Goyim and Influence People: Israeli Rabbis Defend Book’s Shocking Religious Defense of Killing Non-Jews: http://www.alternet.org/story/148016/how_to_kill_goyim_and_influence_people%3A_israeli_rabbis_defend_book's_shocking_religious_defense_of_killing_non-jews_(with_video)
” I’m not a bigot and I have no need to justify myself to you.”
1) You are a bigot.
2) You can’t justify yourself, so best not to engage in a futile, puerile effort. Your “Palestinians = lower life forms” comment can only be retracted and apologized for, not defended.
3) Re: your cutseification of those of us who hail from northern Europe: Finns have a history. They are as capable as other men of savagery, if pushed to it. It was no accident that they remained independent thru the 20th century, when all other small nations around them fell under the thumb of one empire or another. Repeatedly.
The fact that they are blond and sound funny should not blind you to their humanity, nor that of anyone else for that matter.
@FluffytheObeseCat
1) Prove it.
2) Prove it. I have never claimed “Palestinians = lower life forms”. I claimed that the Palestinian state (or entity whatever you want to call it) is not as developed as Finland. It is an indisputable fact. I have said nothing of Palestinians as individuals and have never considered them to be lesser than myself.
You are a fucking miserable cockstain for even attempting to go down that path. I spit on you.
@-Mona-
Israel does rank higher than Finland on the human development index, is it also an indisputable fact. Like I said it is less developed in certain areas and more so in others. I don’t see why you’re arguing about this if the information is just a google search away.
@-Mona-
I find it amusing that you’re bringing up gay marriage, considering that Palestinian gays seek asylum in Israel – you know, because other Palestinians hang them from lamp posts. Gay couples who wed in a country where gay marriage is legal are recognized as legally married in Israel, there’s growing support for local gay marriage as well. This is especially hilarious because Israel is widely known as one most progressive countries in the world in that area.
Your comments about evolution are bunk as well, I went to an Israeli school in the 90s and studied evolution, sorry to break it to you. One of the areas where Israel is more developed than Finland is science and technology.
What I fail to understand is your need to portray Israel as universally evil. It has to be the worst at everything with no redeeming qualities in your mind it seems. Why? What’s with the hate?
No doubt. If Israel has not killed them first in childhood.
I am a fact- and logic-based individual. The facts and reason leave Israel looking quite horrific, indeed.
GC,I’ll bet you were not taught evolution until high school: http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/.premium-1.596605
Biology is an elective subject in middle school and by extension evolution. Do you suffer from reading comprehension problems as well?
Don’t know whether biology is elective in Israeli middle school. Just know that until recently, religious pressure prevented middle schools from teaching it.
That cannot happen in the U.S., because, unlike Israel, we separate religion and state in our foundational law.
This is false. Judaism does not interpret the biblical story of creation literally. There is no conflict between Judaism and the teaching of evolution.
Unlike you, Fluffy has offered great insights in Glenn’s comment space for many years. Her contributions are uniformly excellent.
You, on the other hand, are a heavily indoctrinated Zionist, who, by definition, has adopted a racist, ethno-religious, blood and soil military nationalism. What you advocate is evil, irredeemably so.
Israel is not a liberal Western democracy.
That Tel Aviv offers great clubbing and beaches for gays, does not alter that Zionism is racism, and that you have so little self-awareness you do not see that you have been spewing racist arguments yourself.
Fluffy accused me of bigotry without proof. Her past contributions are irrelevant if she spews offensive nonsense as a rhetorical strategy. Uniformly excellent her contributions are not. She is a fucking cockstain for making baseless accusations.
You have no fucking idea what I advocate, but go on tell me please. You have no clue what Zionism is. Zionism is the notion that Jews should have a Jewish nation state where they will be free from persecution and bias due solely to their ethnicity (as is still the case in many countries in the world). Racism it is not.
Please point out the racist arguments I’ve been spewing, along with proof. And the fact that Tel Aviv is a popular gay tourism destination does at least prove that Israel is more tolerant and more liberal than the surrounding Arab states, including Palestine.
For the record, I am a) an anarchist b) an atheist c) not living in Israel by choice.
I hope you know the saying about assumptions…
uh oh, by your statement you have tarred ALL amerikans with the same broadbrush…
only WE are DESERVING of it, as citizens of Empire who do NOTHING to stop our war machine…
Your “cultural supremacy” score card is duly noted GC, but I believe you missed the scandal of that comparison (and the post in general). Palestinians obviously aren’t going to become Finns while under occupation,and thus, as Weisglass patiently explained, there is no intent to end the occupation. This is part of a long line of evidence that exposes the myth that Israel is a “partner for peace”.
Formaldehyde. It’s a rather toxic and flammable substance they use in certain manufacturing uses, and also in funeral homes. I would have chosen a different metaphor.
No kidding. The filter, or lack thereof, blows my mind. Is Armando Iannucci writing this shit?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wE5ysC0NbAk
Open letter to François Hollande and to the other racists who lead us
By writer and professor of university in surgery Christophe Oberlin, Paris-Diderot university
Mister President, do you want me to show you the pictures of the Palestinian children hacked to pieces by Israeli bombs?
Mister President, do you know that one Palestinian child has been killed by Israel every three days for ten years?
Mister President, you keep with the general pattern of a hateful political class: that same class that operated the guillotine during the Algerian War; that was behind Larbi ben Mhidi’s assassination; that organized the Suez War; that gave Israel the bomb.
Mister President, you remember absolutely nothing from the history and law courses of Paris Institute of Political Studies.
Mister President, while Israel extends every day its territory by force, why do you refuse to recognize the Palestinians’ right to resist by also resorting to force?
Mister President, while supporting a state which extends its borders by force, you infringe the United Nations Charter!
Mister President, while keeping up military cooperation with Israel, you are legally party to war crimes and crimes against humanity.
Mister President, while the Palestinian people is a majority on the whole Palestinian territory, you support the minority and doing so you deny democracy!
Mister President, I accuse you of one of the worst types of racism: white-collar racism!
Mister President, your statements only involve yourself! You are a disgrace to France!
There is an interesting exercise. Two persons, one leads the other, who does not see anything. Quite interesting to reflect what part is easier to handle.
R E M E M B E R
It is always Hamas’ fault Israel murders innocent women and children…
Like the bully grabbing the little child’s arms and swings them wildly crying, “STOP HITTING YOURSELF!”
An even better example is the bully who tells his victim after beating him: “Look what you made me do!”
Promoting and Protecting Free Speech and Free ExpressionPromoting and Protecting Free Speech and Free Expression
https://firstlook.org/2014/07/21/promoting-protecting-free-speech-free-expression/
So glad the obvious reticence about supporting that case was overcome (I am assuming this, not stating something I know for a fact). Just because Miranda is Glenn’s spouse does not detract from its crucial importance. Public interest of many degrees of magnitude.
The Axis of Chutzpah thrives audacious: malevolent flaunting their big fat moral PASSES from the west for the slow wringing extermination of the Palestinians. The slaughtering is stomach sickening.
The Israelis are the new Nazis. They’re using the Warsaw ghetto as a model for Gaza operations.
And, to salt those wounds, there are the white phosphorus rounds that coram nobis noted in the last post’s comment section.
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/07/17/nbc-removes-ayman-mohyeldin-gaza-coverage-witnesses-israeli-beach-killing-four-boys/#comment-57772
It seems Israel lied about stopping their use:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/04/26/us-israel-arms-idUSBRE93P0CG20130426
Just realized that I somehow managed to get a post through that has three links in it. Is that some kind of record, or what? :-s
Prof. Leibowitz: There are Judeo-Nazis. Israel Represents the Darkness of a State Body.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zM2fXTkjU2E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wA9gfGvyijs
Godwin’s Law
As noted elsewhere, Greenwald’s been there and explored that. And if you delve into the comment section, you’ll see that Godwin himself appeared to approve of Glenn’s take on the matter.
http://www.salon.com/2010/07/01/godwin/
The trends in world affairs over the last dozen years have repealed Godwin’s Law.
Everyone who has given the I-P conflict 10 minutes of serious thought recognizes that the Israelis have learnt a lot from the oppressors of their European grandmothers. Not only do they practice many of those oppressors’ techniques, they also project that behavior onto the Palestinians — e.g., accusing the Palestinians of attempting to perpetrate a second holocaust on the Jews of Israel.
Unfortunately, to address this long-known fact is to invite accusations of antisemitism. But if you haven’t been called an antisemite by now, you’re not doing enough for the cause of justice and the rule of international law in the Middle East.
I just want to remind all you retards that terrorist HAMAS and Hezbollah is daily throwing bombs missiles into Israel. Israel has told the civilians to GET THE FUCK OUT OF THE WAY.
I don’t see a problem with anything Israel is doing to protect itself from terrorists.
You’ve all jumped on the pity wagon and have lost your objectivity.
I’m not jewish and I still see what the terrorists in GAZA are trying to do. What the fuck, are you ALL blind.
It is really silly to think that Israel telling the civilians to “get out of the way” exculpates them when the civilians are trapped in a virtual ghetto and their movements are severely restricted.
Furthermore, to ignore the technological advantage Israel has is ridiculous. Just compare the death toll on each side.
Throwing unguided rockets into Israel would be like the American revolutionaries catapulting buckets of dirt into Buckingham palace back in 1776. While it may be justified, it’s not going to help your cause. Hamas and Gaza’s best option has to be some kind of non-violent civil disobedience. Only then will the rest of the world realize how brutal Israel is acting and perhaps support a 2-state solution.
Easier said than done. It’s doubtful no one has ever thought of engaging in civil disobedience. That usually comes before violence. Rachel Corrie stood in front of a Bulldozer. Did it help, or was she just crushed to death? What chance would a brown non-American have of making an impact?
You are the blind one if you do not understand that it is illegal to fire indiscriminately upon non-combatant targets like hospitals and residential neighborhoods. Israel is literally hammering the Palestinians and has been since 1948. I would suggest that you consult the volumes of historical documentation regarding this matter so that you can overcome your gross ignorance regarding the origins of the conflict between the States of Palestine and Israel.
Start here: http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html
The terrorists that you are referring to are Zionists who have steadily and illegally grabbed (via so-called colonization) most of the Palestinian land and water assets since the creation of the State of Israel. The remaining Palestinians have been herded into the open-air prison camps like Gaza and they truly have no where to go.
If you can not comprehend that simple fact, it is you who have lost all objectivity and possibly your soul.
Oh, I see how that works. Should Hamas from now on just say “get the fuck out of the way” before launching rockets? That apparently makes it alright from what you’re telling us.
Moder military events summed up in a single tweet:
*sigh* Even when I proofread…
Moder s/b Modern
Whoooh!! I thought I was reading the Onion for a moment, check out the headline:
-“Israel holds moral high ground in Gaza ”
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/commentary/ct-oped-krauthammer-on-moral-clarity-0721-20140721,0,199395.column
-“Rarely does international politics present a moment of such moral clarity.”
-“Where are the roads and rail, the industry and infrastructure of the new Palestinian state?
(errr, Krauthammer, 1) there is no Palestinian state, and 2) I think you will find that all that stuff is bombed by the Israelis as fast as it is built.)
You know someone’s arguments are on thin ice when they use the formulation “Everyone knows …X” ex:
-“Everyone knows Hamas set off this mini-war. ”
There is just too much to laugh at in this Krauthammer article,
The oppressor never has the moral high ground when fighting the oppressed. That’s regardless of what the oppressed does. It’s very simple.
Both sides can claim “self-defense”, but Israel is the oppressor, and is therefore the party that should resolve the situation by non-violent means, namely by addressing all the grievances of the Palestinians.
I notice that Chucky is another that loves that word “moral”. It’s been my experience that those who like to use that word are totally devoid of morals themselves.
“telegenically dead Palestinians” doesn’t even make sense unless you’re assuming that the television audience is enjoying seeing those images. Though I suppose perhaps that Netanyahu, et al. are actually taking pleasure in it. However I think that wouldn’t be the goal of Hamas.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/telegenic
It also doesn’t make sense if the US public is seeing these images widely (see Glenn’s previous article about the one-sided nature of the coverage). Usually even the film-at-11 stuff is sanitized.
THE ANALOGY IS IMHO NOT JUST FEARMONGERING BECAUSE OR “Reductio ad Hitlerum” BECAUSE IT FITS LIKE A PRECIDENT WHITHOUT SCALE.
|[..]als ob es unter den Berliner Juden nur noch putzige kleine Babies, die
durch ihre kindliche Hilflosigkeit rühren sollen, oder gebrechliche alte Frauen gibt. Die Juden
schicken ihre Mitleidgarde vor. Sie mögen damit einige harmlose Gemüter in
momentane Verwirrung bringen, uns nicht. Wir wissen ganz genau, woran wir mit ihnen sind.|
A SENTENCE FURTHER GOEBBELS CONCLUDED AND ESPECIALLY BEAUSE OF THESE (Mimicry/Telegenically dead People) WE HAVE TO WIN THE WAR THAT THEY DONT TAKE REVENGE ON OUR WIFES AND CHILDREN
Schon ihretwegen müssen wir den Krieg gewinnen. Verlören wir ihn, so würden sich die harmlos
tuenden jüdischen Biedermänner | plötzlich in reißende Wölfe verwandeln. Sie würden sich auf
unser Volk, auf unsere Frauen und Kinder stürzen, um an ihnen ein Rachewerk zu vollziehen, für
das es in der Geschichte kein Beispiel gibt[…]
I HAVE NO DOUBT THAT BIBI IS INVOLVED IN WAR CRIMES IF WE JUGE IT WITH COMON LAW ATITUDES OR HUMAN DIGNITY PRINCIPLES LIKE THE HAGUE ICJ
BUT LIKE THE NÜRNBERG “Hauptkriegsverbrecher” (what is wrong because senior m.d. s in Ausschwitz LABS were rubberstamped “paperclip visas” to fight ivan) PLEAD NOT GUILTY BECAUSE OF nulla poena sine lege ROMAN LAW DOGMA SO WHOULD BIBI ARGUE NO LAW /ART./§ VIOLATED NO CRIME AND FURTHERMORE HE WHOULD POSSIBLE ASK WHRE IS THE MORAL.
THE MORAL IS NOT A CONSTANT THING WHAT IS ALSO THE REASON WHY THERE ARE POLS SURVEYS AND A SURVILIENCE STATE WHITHOUT BORDERS. IN SCHOOL WE WERE TEACHED THAT THIS PROBLEM OF DESPOTIE CAN BE SOLVED BY INTRUDUCING DEMOCRACY AND SOMETIMES TO PROMOTE CILLING EFFECTS TO PROTECT MINORITYS OR IMPROVE THE CODE OF CONDUCT FOR A BETTER LIFE.
BUT THIS WRONT WORK IF YOU HAVE A LOOK ON THE SIGDEV GROUP BEHAVIOR NSA POWERPOINT BULLETIN – BASED ON A BROAD STUDY.
IN MY POINT OF VIEW THE WORLD SHOULD MAKE ALTRUISM EXPERIMENTS EXPERIMENTS/PROJEKS WITHOUT THE HARDLINERS THERE. THE OVERSIGHT SHOULD BY ORGANISED BY ARTEIST HINDUS MULTIETHNIC PEOPLE ALL OVER THE WORLD WHIOUT ANY JEWIS OR ARABIC ANCESTRY.
LATER ON THEY SHOULD TEER DOWN THE WALLS – MAKE BUFFERS, SWAPS OR OASES WITH HIGH FINANCIAL INCENTIVES…- ZONES ONLY FOR INTERMARIGE FAMILIES WITH DIFFERND RELIGIONS.
I was thinking of the “human shield” throw-away line, the Israeli’s use when I read this:
-“Al-Aqsa Hospital is the third to be hit by Israeli tank fire since Israel launched its ground offensive in Gaza four days ago.
Al Jazeera’s Dekker said the scene of the hospital shelling was an area “where a lot of people had been fleeing to”.
“There’s extremely heavy shelling going on in that neighbourhood. This is an area you’d think would be relatively safe,” she said.
“It’s a public hospital; it is run by the government. It was established here before Hamas took over.””
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/07/deaths-as-israeli-tanks-shell-gaza-hospital-2014721124111171397.html
I could understand the heinousness of actually using human shields, but the only cases I know of are of the Israelis doing it. They routinely send in a Palestinian neighbours to lead their raids in the West Bank….if there is a booby-trap….no harm done to the brave soldiers.
…but claiming, as they clinically bomb hospitals, that the patients are human shields? What? were the bombs headed for the invisible military target…when, all of a sudden…the Gaza hospital threw itself into harms way in a heroic attempt at martyrdom???
After reading TI and seeing this story in other places, it seems to me that there are two main narratives people engage when speaking about Israel-Palestine. 1. Israel is a beacon of Enlightenment values in a desert of tribal superstition, where people just can’t be reasoned with. While they may lose their patience and overdo it at times, the fact is that as soon as Israel turns its back it will be broadsided by lunatic extremists who have no regard for ‘infidel’ life and, due to said superstitious beliefs, will never stop attacking and even killing themselves and their children, so long as Israel exists and a regional (oppressive and antithetical to western values) caliphate has not been established. 2. Israel is controlled by sociopathic, power hungry Zionists who use their skills in PR and pockets of influence with powerful people to massacre Arab children, for whom they feel contempt and view as inferior barbarians. They will feign concern for the Palestinian population while systematically murdering them until they have established a visionary Holy Utopia based on their own brand of superstition which, while somewhat more compatible with current western values, is still yet another other-wordly driven quest.
In general I think this is just an example of how we rise up together or not at all. In a situation where there’s extreme violence, what can a ‘good guy’ look like? An ineffectual pacifist who allows violence to continue? A scary dictator who’s simply so much more powerful that they can force everyone to bend to their benevolent will with minimal struggle and casualties? A relatively evenly matched opponent who fights fire with fire and thus ends up looking about the same as their enemy in the long run? Hopefully after a series of painful small concessions said groups can begin edging upward bit by bit, but there’s not really a pretty ending to stories like these. At least not in the short term.
As to the points in this piece – to #1, drawing an analogy to Nazis, even if the analogy was in reference to a specific quote and not the entire situation, seems overly inflammatory. Surely someone other than a Nazi made a similar point at some point in history (heck, including advertising firms, for example), and in choosing Nazis as the comparison quote group, there was some emotional point you wanted readers to glean from this. The Nazis used German engineering to slaughter millions of nonviolent civilians. There’s a reason they are sort of a be-all end-all example of clearly unjustified violence. 2. As far as university of war propaganda – I certainly see your point here and find this most irritating when the message is conveyed with unbearable smugness, which it often is. That said, if you want to carry this thinking to it’s extreme logical conclusions to total relativism, you also have to say it was obnoxious for the Allies to stop the Nazis, what with their insufferable (purposeful sarcasm to make a point, obviously,) moralizing about how it’s wrong for other cultures to do medical experiments on live Jewish subjects and gas children to death in mass chambers. 3. That’s an interesting point, I don’t have a legal background so I wouldn’t have known that. Certainly there’s a lot to be said about degrees of negligence, but in general, I didn’t realize it could be used to show intent to do harm.
On a side note, I’m so glad – um, you, Glenn, the author? Can’t decide who my pretend grammatical audience is for writing comments – is writing regularly again, because I thought you fell in a hole or something.
The text preceding this:
Does not implicate moral relativism, nor does is its logical extension.
Mmm, I disagree, although I’m not 100% clear on what you mean by ‘text preceding this’ (my text or the text from the article?), so I can’t completely speak to that. The linked article, The University Of War Propaganda, is about the reasons cited to justify war, with a focus on “To save the poor backwards, beleaguered natives and show them a better way – see, some of them are grateful so that proves it!”. I agree that some westerners (not all westerners, just a subset) are often *way too confident in this rationale, and sort of shocked when said Peoples aren’t thankful and grateful to have been liberated into their schema. My point was that this argument is not all or nothing, it has it’s limits – i.e., if you think this argument does NOT have limits, the logical conclusion is that you think the Allies were poking their nose in where it didn’t belong in liberating Germany.
There is probably a line. I would draw it at fighting (wannabe) hegemonic empires. When hegemonic empires themselves want to engage in what they call “humanitarian interventions” in pursuit of their own interests, I oppose that almost reflexively.
I suspect there’s a better principle of non-intervention, something like the “prime directive.” Certainly, the strong should not be imposing their culture and values on the weak.
I went to war as a youth; war is the antithesis of moral values. War is a moral quagmire. The other side is always demonized, dehumanized so it becomes acceptable to commit murder and mayhem.
If you want to find your way out of that quagmire, then I recommend reading the law governing war. E.g., the U.N. Charter, the Fourth Geneva Convention. In our constitution, we are instructed that these instruments, as treaties, are the “law of this land.”
“The law, Roper, the law. I know what’s legal, not what’s right. And I’ll stick to what’s legal. . . . I’m not God. The currents and eddies of right and wrong, which you find such plain-sailing, I can’t navigate, I’m no voyager. But in the thickets of the law, oh there I’m a forester. . . . What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil? . . . And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned round on you — where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? . . . This country’s planted thick with laws from coast to coast — Man’s laws, not God’s — and if you cut them down . . . d’you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow the[n]? . . . Yes, I’d give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety’s sake.”
R. Bolt, A Man for All Seasons, Act I, p. 147 (Three Plays, Heinemann ed. 1967), as quoted in Tennessee Valley Authority v. Hill, 437 U.S. 153, 195-196 (1978), http://laws.findlaw.com/us/437/153.html
Fish in a barrel.
I see many parallels to managing our own dysfunctional prison population. If we classified Gaza as a prison Israel would approach the number of “incarcerated” that the US holds in it’s own prisons. (they would easily exceed our 1%) Unfortunately it would require their entire GDP to adequately fund an industrial prison complex of that size, so what we are left with is this perpetual cycle of occupy, (think send in the swat team to end a prison riot, and root out the contraband) and contain. (pack up and leave until the next riot(s))
Instead of a Godwin metaphor, let’s try this one on for size.
There’s more, but you get the idea.
http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/mylai/myl_Calltest.html
We’ve mentioned the traditional definition of criminal malice earlier in the thread. Discuss.
Also applies to the surgical drone strike, no? “Bugsplats”, I believe they’re called.
As the threshold for applying lethal violence to civilians is significantly lower within a war unburdened by the delineation of space and time, there is now something of a global jurisdiction for “mowing the lawn”, to use the parlance of psychopaths.
Bugsplat, as what the drone and gunship operators see in their sights. Remember the Collateral Murder video Pvt. Manning revealed, and all their GameBoy chatter? Bugsplat. Stepped-on ants. We’re one step removed from Lt. Calley’s analysis: now they’re enemy and just stick figures on a screen.
This is amusing, the next time American tv discusses whether America should get involved:
fromCNN:
-“On the Israeli side, where the Iron Dome defense system helps protect people against missile attacks every day, the death toll stands at 20 — 18 soldiers and two civilians. Thirteen of the soldiers were killed Sunday in a Hamas attack. Two were Americans: California native Max Steinberg and Sean Carmeli, from South Padre Island, Texas, the U.S. State Department said.”
http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/21/world/meast/mideast-crisis/
So, Americans are going so far as to physically participate in the attack on Gazans, and I don’t expect they need fear being drone bombed by Obama despite the president’s wilingness to kill his citizens who have taken up arms abroad.
of the comparably few dead on the Israeli side, the vast majority are soldiers, and of them, one ninth are American citizens.
Let’s have another debate about whether the US should “get involved”,…as an “honest broker”!!!!! ;)
And Steinberg was a sniper for the Golani Brigade. He almost certainly took part in atrocities.
The favorite word of today’s modern oppressor: terrorist. It is the comdemnation-free Ace in the Hole of the global hegemon. If Obama were really serious about his avowed concern for the Palestinians, he would cut off the yearly 2 billion dollars to Israel that helps pay for their oppression.
Not new indeed. During the Bosnian war in the 1990s generally, and during the siege of Sarajevo specifically (The Markale massacres), the oft repeated claim was that atrocities were staged in order to win the sympathy of the West. The people making those claims are at the Hague right now for war crimes still defending the claims.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/latest-news/bosnian-war-crimes-staged-says-karadzic/story-fn3dxity-1225836327997?nk=062bdda4cf13ea18d4b3a1d195410b97
According to Tim Judah, “The Serbian argument was grotesque, since what they wanted the world to believe was that of the hundreds of thousands of shells they fired, none had ever hurt anyone. As Miroslav Toholj, the novelist who became the Republika Srpska’s information minister, put it, ‘We Serbs never kill civilians.'”
Peniclitorical manipulation.
On the international stage, Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) ought to be the first step in responding to Israel’s grotesquely murderous assault on Gaza. It should be rapidly followed by U.S. withdrawal of financial supports – in whatever form they take.
What makes me just grind my teeth is I don’t see the international community prepared to take that first step, and there is virtually no one in our House or Senate who has the courage to lead a congressional campaign to even threaten that loss of financial support.
Increasingly, in retrospect, Netanyahu, is making Ahmadinejad appear coldly composed and very, very sane.
Meanwhile, as @froomkin so pithly observed,
In as much as the story about NSA spying was as much a story about the relationship between the U.S. mainstream media and the U.S. government, the story of Gaza is a story about the relationship between the U.S. and Israel.
Done and forwarded. Thank you for providing the link.
99% of human beings know that WAR is obsolete. It is the 1% that cling to power and domination through WAR. Over centuries this 1% has gained control over governments, major world wide media, religions, the world economy, the global military R U$, even our educational institutions teach a fictional history. The puppets that run these institutions take instructions, knowingly or unknowingly, from the 1% puppet masters. Humanity is waking up to this global scam, this criminal enterprise and this almost unbelievable cruelty manifested by these inbred Psychopathic non-humane creatures. The masses have been brain washed and mind controlled to the point, for so long, they believe the lies, manipulation, deceptions, and reasons for mass killings of fellow human beings. But – for some reason humanity is beginning to see the wolf in sheep’s clothing and is saying NO, and Hell NO to the insanity. Their house of cards is falling down and they are being seen for the human evil scum they really are. It is our sacred job to wake up the sleepers. It is our job to say with all our being NO, NO and a louder NO to the 1% and YES, YES and louder YES to the 99%. We must make our world anew together, and for the benefit of ALL people, every single man, women and child. WAR is obsolete and so is the 1% controllers. Say NO! Identify with our human family as if it were your own, because it IS.
FYI. One of many groups, projects, movements etc that are waking up the 99% around the world.
Project “Wake Up the World”
“Project “Wake Up the World to VT” Launches Now!
“Patriots around the world are asked to join our new efforts called “Project Wake Up the World” which officially kicked off on July 20th, 2014. This project involves a global effort to push all the truth to as many people as possible in the shortest amount of time. To do this, we’re giving everybody the power to do more damage to the lies of the mainstream media by learning some powerful techniques we’ve proven on the battlefield over the last 4 years.”
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/07/21/project-wake-up-the-world-to-vt-launches-now/
Suggestion: If you know of any other efforts to wake up humanity to our enslavement by the 1% please share with everyone.
quote” If you know of any other efforts to wake up humanity to our enslavement by the 1% please share with everyone.”unquote
Ok. Evil exists because good men DON’T kill the 1% and government officials committing it. Comprende?
Is the current discussion not getting through to you? Killing, murder is WRONG. Violence is not the way. I hope everyone will repudiate your awful remark.
One more thing…for Americans especially. They need to see the truth HOW they are enslaved.
ie….. the 16th Amendment, which for all intents and purposes was pushed on the States by the insidious founders of the Federal Reserve.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IJeemTQ7Vk
If ever there was a conspiracy so evil, so cunning, and so fucking despicable..it is the FED. Ron Paul fought tooth and nail to get a bill passed to audit the FED.
btw, because the DOLLAR was pushed on the world as a reserve currency for most of the planet post WW11, this allowed the US hegemony in the world to expand. Unfortunately for the FED, their game is almost up …
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/liamhalligan/10978178/The-dollars-70-year-dominance-is-coming-to-an-end.html
second try….
One more thing…for Americans especially. They need to see the truth HOW they are enslaved.
ie….. the 16th Amendment, which for all intents and purposes was pushed on the States by the insidious founders of the Federal Reserve.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IJeemTQ7Vk
If ever there was a conspiracy so evil, so cunning, and so fucking despicable..it is the FED. Ron Paul fought tooth and nail to get a bill passed to audit the FED.
furthermore…
….. because the DOLLAR was pushed on the world as a reserve currency for most of the planet post WW11, this allowed the US hegemony in the world to expand. Unfortunately for the FED and the US 1%, their game is almost up …
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/liamhalligan/10978178/The-dollars-70-year-dominance-is-coming-to-an-end.html
ALL wars are driven by Central Banks…ie..the REAL 1%…
because of the ONE LINK doctrine of posting here..I have to post my comment this way.
furthermore, to understand the real nature of our enslavement, one must understand the REAL history….
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDKUc3-CWU0
21st century madness that might eclipse 20th century madness.And those in charge,paid the most money for the least education in history.Poison ivy ziorash.
Warning!!! Absolutely horrible pictures of death and destruction, or what Charles Krauthammer and Netanyahu call ‘telegenic.’
http://www.maannews.net/arb/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=714793
I like the Nazi era parallel.
Here’s another one. A passage compared from Greenwald’s book to a passage from Timothy Snyder’s Bloodlands:Europe Between Hitler and Stalin
sorry, link here http://discussthetimes.com/blog/nsa/NSA-and-Stalin-Comparing-Tactics/
Yesterday I was flipping channels between al Jazeera and CNN for Gaza news,
On Al Jazeera, I got first hand reports from reporters in Gaza, from ambulance technicians, refugees, Hamas spokesmen, doctors, Israeli spokesmen, UN workers.
On CNN I got an extended interview with Netanyahu.
Naturally I spent more time on Al Jazeera, because I want to learn about what is actually going on, so I can’t swear that CNN didn’t show some of what is happening,..it is possible they did, in between repeats of the Netanya intervies, talking with John Kerry, Jerusalem reporters, Washington reporters, etc.
I suppose we could argue all day about whether Netanyahu is more telegenic than ‘dead Palestinians’. Netanyahu may be understandably defensive on this subject, as indicated by his quote in this article, since being telegenic to an American audience is perhaps his main qualification for being Prime Minister. But I think an impartial observer would concede it’s a close call. So I’m not surprised that two presumably impartial and objective television networks would make different choices of what to air.
I recommend you watch Netanyahu interviews when you want to play the “terror” drinking game…you have to down one, every time he says Israel is fighting terrorists on behalf of humanity or some such twaddle.
I like the parallel with the Nazi era. Here’s another one comparing a passage from Greenwald’s book to a passage from Timothy Snyder’s great book Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin
http://discussthetimes.com/blog/nsa/NSA-and-Stalin-Comparing-Tactics/
Wouldn’t it be more relevant to say,the world,between Nutty Yahoo and Obomba,instead of propagandized dead people?Serial liars lie serially,and if one thinks the Zionist history book has validity(maybe a tiny tiny tiny bit),they need mental examination and are certifiable.
The fruits of Zionism taste like sh*t and are less filling.
Glenn, one minor quibble on the matter of recklessness, your “gross recklessness is a form of intent.”
Nice, but I think a more appropriate explanation of criminal intent is this:
An “abandoned and malignant heart.” Needless to say, §§ 187-189 carried a capital penalty. And it seems to be the traditional Anglo-American wording.
“gross recklessness is a form of intent.”
Hmmm, Do the Israelis intend to kill hundreds of civilians? Even a novice invader, after dropping the first american made 500 pound bomb on a house, and seeing the results, would have to be aware that subsequent bombings would kill comparable numbers of civilians.
So I wouldn’t say there is a lack of understanding that Israeli actions inevitably are primarily killing non combatants.
And after repeated shellings of Gaza, every three or four years, even the casual observer without the military training of an Israeli soldier, would notice that whatever military goals are achieved by the destruction of secret tunnels and arms caches….these victories are temporary, as evidenced by the recurrent rocket and mortar firings into Israel. So it is hard to argue that there is a military goal achievement that outweighs the civilian deaths.
Rather then, what we are witness to is not reckless behaviour, but the intent by a mighty army to kill scores of inocent people who are under seige and trapped by that same army. By their own statements, Israel’s government sees the killing of the captive palestinians as a means of reducing support for their resistance movement.
The Nazis did something similar to the French, killing numbers of civilians in response to resistance. The Germans also, like the Israelis, announced in advance what form their collective punishment would take.
So the Israeli war crimes themselves, aren’t very original either. But they certainly can’t be classified as “self defence” either. When you announce days in advance your military operation, when you are a powerful army, against no army, when the end result is hundreds dead among the occupied population, …that is not self defence.
I’m afraid you must be wrong, since American munitions are provided to Israel on the condition they only be used in self-defence.
And that, QED, makes my point, JLocke. The traditional English-American definition of criminal malice is either express — they meant to kill — or implied, in that spewing white phosphorus, flechette weapons and high explosives in a built-up area is about as indiscriminate as it gets short of CBR.
Coram Nobis, see also: https://twitter.com/walterwkatz/status/491218810012065793
and also https://twitter.com/walterwkatz/status/491307915236483073
Netanyahu got the the “telegenic” phrase from Charles Krauthamaur of the WashPost. He had an article a day ago with that exact word. netanyahu read it and liked it because he is very PR minded and well practiced in the american art of Talking Points and Messaging.
That’s hilarious. I was wondering what journalist he was quoting. I didn’t think for one second it was an American journalist.
Netanyahu doth protesteth too much, methinks. Especially when all other Israeli spokespersons are repeating exactly the same thing over and over and over again. The less sociopathic among them must be having a very hard time convincing themselves that this is true, and that they therefore hold no responsibility for the countless horrible death and destruction they’ve inflicted on the Palestinians.
“Hyping the dead” and “human shields” are figments of a propagandistic imagination and have no basis in reality. When you think about it, both concepts require coordination and cooperation with the enemy to kill your own people. How would that work exactly?
The real point is to demonize the opposition and transfer responsibility for your own heinous actions to those on whom you inflicted them. Glenn is absolutely correct to make the comparison to Goebbels.
Meanwhile, God reconsiders his promise of “the holy land”.
Holyland-war =oxymoron of biblical proportions
People ask “Where was God during the Holocaust;” maybe He was looking at the future…
More and more I see resemblances between Palestinian fighters and the French Resistance, with both being viewed as criminal and terrorist by the occupiers. And both occupiers relied heavily on group punishment and the killing of civilians—and of course both are driven by a desire for ethnic purity, one based on race, the other on religion. Certainly the Palestinians have their terrorists, but the French Resistance also were undoubtedly also viewed as terrorists—and of course Israel itself quite readily turned to terrorism for their own ends (Menachem Begin led the terrorist group Irgun, for example). A nation that embraced terrorism for itself and continues to kill droves of civilians (including 4 children simply playing on the beach) has undermined its own moral position.
Yes, and Yitzhak Shamir explicitly advocated terrorism as appropriate to the Zionist project and innovated the letter bomb.
Israel would elect both terrorists as prime minister.
There are always parallels between wars but what I find shocking here is the lack of empathy from the Israelis considering their own sad history in the attrocities comitted against them in WW2.
To me, this is about destroying a culture, not specific targets. By taking out schools, hospitals, water systems, etc, they break down the society. Since when has a hospital for the disabled been a military target? I think the targets expose Israeli govts true agenda. This has nothing to do with it defending itself.
Note laws & wars, Maybe Netanyahu should review this :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_and_customs_of_war#Purposes_of_the_laws
What has also been rather exposing is the response by the MSM, which demonstrates, again, how sycophantic it is towards the govt policy & the war machine. IMO, this makes the MSM war criminals, 100% complicit in enabling the mass murders of innocent people.
Human nature has always been the same. When the oppressed get the chance, they revert to being the oppressor in certain circumstances. Tribal, territorial etc. Nothing has changed in the human brain in 10,000 years.
Much more culpable for violence and death than a thousand Awlakis,but untouchable.Amazing isn’t it?
” The truth in the undisguised bullshit which characterizes contemporary geopolitical leaders” has a name: MONEY. Some conspicuous examples: Tony Blair; the Clintons.
The beginning of this post reminded me of Jonathan Schwarz, so it is no surprise he was involved. Great hire by the way.
agreed
Gog/Snyd,
Thank you, I really appreciate it. Obviously this particular propaganda is universal to all wars; e.g., Petraeus said something similar about Afghanistan (though just internally, which is interesting in its own right): http://www.tinyrevolution.com/mt/archives/003454.html
Jonathan Schwarz of WNEW FM fame?Way back in those halcyon days?If so,good for him.
War crime: video shows sniper killing of wounded Gaza civilian
Monstrous. Ali Abunimah has the story and video here: http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/war-crime-video-shows-sniper-killing-wounded-gaza-civilian
Mona — How much do you want bet that clip won’t make it to the ABC evening news with Diana?
Diane Sawyer may actually carry this because it clearly shows the suffering of the Israeli Jews at the hands of the evil Palis.
Whatever dude.
Just to the north east of Israel is Syria. There’s an uprising going on there, 3 years now give or take, against a brutal, repressive regime that gasses its own citizens. Close to 200,000 dead so far. What’s the world’s reaction? A big collective shrug of indifference. Nobody cares about dead Arabs, and in fact the world probably thinks there are too many Arabs anyway.
These howls of outrage at Israel’s latest operation will eventually die down, swallowed by a sea of indifference. The only reason some people care is because this latest skirmish is new and exciting – newsworthy that is. But when was the last time you heard, or cared, about the dead children in Syria?
What the useful idiots on the left fail to realize is very simple. Israel is a democracy. When Israelis are attacked by rockets and mortars (Grads are certainly not pop bottle rockets), they – upon whose votes depend the politicians – rise up and demand an end to the attacks and the politicians comply. Simple. Doesn’t take a master’s degree in medieval Estonian literature to understand.
You want to help the Palestinians (and better do it quickly before the world develops a tolerance to images of dead Gazans, like I said, nobody gives a shit about dead Arabs, at least not for long)? Go to Gaza and demand that Hamas stops firing rockets at Israeli civilians (and stops kidnapping and killing Israeli teenagers while you’re at it). I dare you to do it, I double dare you motherfucker! (sorry couldn’t resist)
When there are no attacks on them, the people of Israel are quite a bit more empathetic to the plight of the Palestinians. When rockets rain down on their homes, as far they are concerned, Gaza should be leveled and Gazans should burn in a hellfire.
This here is the feeble minded western left’s problem. Israelis, with whose suffering it’s so reluctant to emphasize, are the only people on the planet with the power to change Palestinians’ lives for the better. Ironic isn’t it?
I’m not sure “the world” is like Israelis or Nazis. “The world” doesn’t like looking at dead babies, Arab or otherwise, telegenic or not.
The world views Arabs as backwards and primitive “natives”: http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21606284-civilisation-used-lead-world-ruinsand-only-locals-can-rebuild-it.
When in modern times the Arabs are best known for flying airplanes into buildings, there’s quite a bit of justification for viewing them as such. So no one cares about dead “terrorists”.
Israelis on the other hand are in fact the only people who care about the Arabs in general and the Palestinians in particular because they live among them.
And, there have been many Arabs, who’ve consistently condemned these evil acts.
Interestingly, from another perspective, the dropping of bombs, including napalm and nuclear, on helpless civilian populations, in WWII and subsequent wars, such as the Vietnam one, is also considered terrorism since it was meant to terrorize the non-combatants.
We condemn it ALL, no matter the rationalization.
Israel’s don’t give a shit about Palestinians, except as cheap labor for their capitalist class to exploit. They have always relied on cheap Palestinian labor because of the amount of Palestinians in the area and in Israel, hiring them for as low as a third of what they would pay an Israeli employee.
Oh no, not only are Israelis military aggressors, they are also capitalists. Oh my, they probably also have tails too, right? Those Palestinians that work in Israel choose to do so because they get paid far in excess of what they could earn in Palestine.
There is a Palestinian “capitalist class”, including quite a few millionaires as well. Your attempt to add fuel to the fire by inserting your moronic class warfare bullshit is pathetic and weak.
Remember Zionists and Jews aren’t big on manual labor,and seem to gravitate to pencil pushing jobs.I imagine the first settlers in Israel did quite a bit,but I don’t believe today’s spoiled rotten descendants care for it.
I have a feeling there is going to be a drop off of their martial fervor,if the casualties mount more in their IDF,as they are not brave people,willing to fight their enemies only if they have their hands bound with sanctions and no comparable military hardware.
That you refer to “Zionists” and “Jews” as a single monolithic entities is telling. This is what the western left amounts to.
I’m assuming you’re British. In this case your might want to considering dealing with issues closer to home like, you know, the centuries old occupation of N.Ireland, Scotland, Wales, The war with Argentina and the occupation of the Falklands. You’re part of an upstanding group of people really.
The Jews involved in the Warsaw ghetto uprising were also ‘terrorists,’ as was Nelson Mandela.
Follow Max Blumenthal on twitter, and you’ll come across videos of Israeli’s running through the streets looking for Arabs or leftists to beat up. Yeah, I suppose I’ll think twice before I decide to take your word for how much Israelis love Arabs. Maybe you can go profess your love for Arabs to the Abu Khdeir family, who are currently in Jail.
Gazan’s didn’t do 9/11.
The conflict between Israel and the Palestinians is a conflict over land. It’s not hard to find examples of Israelis and Arabs cooperating. Whether the form of cooperation will be to your liking is debatable though.
Examples include the Druze community in Israel, the intelligence cooperation with Egypt and Jordan, and behind the scenes work with some of the gulf states.
When Palestinians are not trying to kill them, relations between Israelis and them can be quite cordial.
So yes. I stand by my statement that Israelis are the only people that care about the fate of the Arabs. The rest of world has displayed repeatedly only indifference.
I can see how you feel about “cooperation.” I guess the slaves were just cooperating with their masters in the American South.
Just a question, while the rest of the world were showing their indifference to the plight of the Jews in the 30s, and 40s, am I to take it, that it was only the Nazis who really cared about the Jews, you know, given the similarities in sentiments between Netanyahu and Goebbels.
Stop your hasbara shit man. It doesn’t work anymore. The rest of the world is still indifferent, and there you’ve got me. But we sure as hell can see what’s going on, even if we’re too impotent to do anything about it.
Israel is not at war with, nor “enslaves” Egypt, Jordan or any of the gulf states. It does not enslave Palestinians. Palestinians are not being systematically killed at all (otherwise Israel is very very bad at systematic killing) and certainly not because of their ethnicity.
My original comment was about pointing out that the Israeli people have more power over the outcome of the conflict than anyone else in the world. That you are impotent is not exactly right. When you assign blame solely to Israel and cheer Hamas as it attacks Israeli civilians you are breeding antagonism amongst Israelis to the Palestinian cause, which you support. When in turn prolongs the conflict.
It is my right to express my opinion. You don’t have to agree with me. And for the record, I work for the Illuminati. Our current goal is the destruction of religious thought in the world and its replacement with a unified belief system.
Don’t forget to submit your time card, Chief.
That is some outstanding whataboutery your shoveling there, pardner.
Really, -Mona-? Care to point to specific examples?
I erred. I misread the first paragraph as claiming Syria was the better topic to write about.
Your comment is merely wrong, silly, and rather disgusting. The notion that Israelis are suffering is beyond preposterous. They are having parties, literally, to celebrate the bombing of Gaza. Their newspapers are advising they remain calm and tip the sushi boy.
The Tel Aviv beaches are packed.
Nobody is having parties to celebrate the bombing of Gaza. You people are really amazing. You claim that the so called “mainstream media” is biased, that supporters of Israel are brainwashed zombies who lap up Israeli “hasbara” (a very arrogant claim by the way because what it really says is “I’m smarter than YOU”), and then you turn around and quote directly from a Palestinian propaganda site like Electronic Intifada.
Failure on the left to recognize that there are people in Israel who are terrorized by Palestinian rockets and are terrified and suffering because of that is exactly what my comment was about. That Israel has a stronger army and better technology (e.g. Iron Dome) does not mean Israelis cannot suffer. Your inability to comprehend this simple fact is testament to a severe shortage of empathy on the left, especially for those not easily painted as “victims”.
Oops.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israelis-cheer-gaza-bombing
Is it safe to surf though?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jts9suWIDlU
Well, yes.
Palestinians Celebrate Teens Kidnapping:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/06/17/1307613/-Palestinians-Celebrate-Teens-Kidnapping
@GC – take it from an old hasbarist. You really suck at this.
Suck at what exactly?
At persuading anyone of anything. At setting forth a “pro-Israel” argument of some kind. At whatever it is you are trying to do here.
The crux of my argument is as follows: Israeli civilians have more power to influence the outcome of the conflict than anyone else. When the left fails to see Israeli civilians as human beings who can also suffer, fear and be terrorize, it antagonizes them and thus indirectly prolongs the conflict and, ironically, the suffering of the Palestinian people as well.
You may believe I work from a shadowy Israeli government basement trying to put forth “pro-Israel” arguments. Fine. I don’t give a flying fuck.
But to me it seems without question that you fail, completely and utterly, at reading comprehension, at empathy towards other human beings and, finally, at doing something truly useful for ending this conflict. You only seem capable of bloviating.
GC – Bloviators gotta bloviate. What can I say?
Of course Israeli civilians can suffer and fear. It’s just that their suffering and fear appear pretty minor-league compared to what the Gazans are enduring. I have much greater empathy for all the parents of dead children than for people who have the luxuries of state-of-the-art missile defense systems, well-built shelters, and a pitifully weak enemy. If that “antagonizes” Israelis, well, I’m afraid it can’t be helped.
Just because the Israeli government took some measures to protect its people – like building shelters and designing missile defense systems doesn’t mean those people are not deserving of empathy.
In fact it says quite a bit about Hamas and how it chooses to spend whatever funds it has on offensive measures (offensive against Israeli civilians) rather than on defensive measures. It also says a lot about how they view the IDF and the role of Palestinian civilians in this conflict if they elect to spend money on rockets and explosives instead of building shelters. Not like bomb shelters are expensive to build. Israel is not shelling them with nukes.
@GC
That is a fair argument. The left always spends its time telling other people what to do. The corollary is that it’s best to ignore them. By arguing, you feed their delusion that their opinions have some significance. When you state it ‘thus indirectly prolongs the conflict’ the left’s sense of self importance grows beyond all bounds. There is nothing they enjoy more than prolonging a conflict since it gives them something to complain about (and they can claim more credit when others eventually resolve it).
Gator90 seems to have realized this and has given up arguing with the leftists on this site while you seem to be trapped in a cycle of futility. Think about it.
Well Benny, May I call you benny? I’m just a simple contrarian so your arguments just went woosh over my head.
Sincerely yours,
GC.
@GC
I’ll try again.
The way the critics (call them the left if you wish) see it, Israel is the dominant military power in the region and has the backing of the world’s only superpower. So they perceive the status quo as favoring Israel and therefore consider that external sanctions or weakening of US support are necessary to create leverage to induce Israel to make some accommodations. So they effectively want to weaken Israel (for its own good of course), which I can understand might not be popular with Israelis.
You on the other hand claim that criticism antagonizes Israelis and prolongs the conflict. If resolving the conflict was in Israel’s best interest, would they act against their own self interest just to spite the critics? That would be self defeating. So I conclude that their support for the status quo is simply based on the expectation that the criticism will not actually lead to any significant sanctions.
While Israel’s lack of interest in resolving the conflict is based on satisfaction with the status quo, the Palestinians in Gaza appear to lack any interest as well, perhaps based on an expectation that things can’t get any worse. They appear to be gambling that some regional power or maybe Russia or China will in the future be interested in challenging US dominance in the Middle East and therefore sponsoring their cause (or that US interest in the region will wane). In the mean time, their goal is just to survive.
So it is interesting that both sides have the same goal of maintaining the status quo. They appear to be cooperating by fighting each other so that no negotiated settlement can be achieved. The critics, as I alluded to before also want to prolong the conflict, despite their protestations, because it gives them something to do. So this is a unique situation where both the protagonists and their critics are all in complete agreement. If everyone is in complete agreement, what is the point of arguing?
@Benito Mussolini
I honestly don’t know if I should treat your argument seriously, or if you’re mocking me – it’s your name man, there’s something wrong with it.
But I will risk saying that you make interesting points. I fail to see support for the status quo in Israel though. Resolving the conflict is in Israel’s best interest but not everyone in Israel believes that to be true. Pointing to comment threads such as this one makes it easy for opponents of a resolution to silence its supporters.
“They hate us and we have no choice, the #HitlerWasRight hashtag proves it to be so” is a common sentiment.
Mona–stop the snippiness..I have been in the region, eaten with Arabs and Bedouins
Alas,. this post is now typical of the strong anti Israeli bias coming from here. That is not to say that Israel is without blame..far from it…but Hamas? note that even the Arab League urged Hamas to cease fire and Hamas refused…who now supports and equips Hamas? Iran. And the goal for Hamas remains the same. Here it is:
From the Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement aka HAMAS
‘Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.’
‘Peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement… Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of Islam… There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility.’
You Zionists are a hoot. GC says: “People X never do Y.” So, I just toss him a link to an international paper that documents — with pictures — X doing Y.
Then you resort to the sexist accusation that I’m guilty of “snippiness.” How many males have you ever accused of being snippy?
When I first began practicing law, an opposing counsel was horrified at my unseemly assertiveness, and sent me a two-page, single-spaced letter all about my being “snippy.” That counsel was a man, of course.
He probably assumed you were a man. I’m guilty of that as well. I was about to make a comment about how you must be the owner of a very large cock and and serious stones. You just sound so confident and assertive and morally superior.
I was about to make a comment about how you must be the owner of a very large cock and and serious stones. You just sound so confident and assertive and morally superior.
So confidence, assertiveness and especially asserting moral imperatives are male traits? Heh.
I think you have more -isms in your bag than you’ve admitted to thus far. And I’ll bet you can’t address the rest of them with any more success than the ones that have been challenged here thus far.
Given that when we were in court together I appeared in brightly colored skirted suits (I’m a winter), with trendy Nine West heels, and expertly applied Clinique cosmetics, given all that, he would have had to be cognitively impaired in addition to being a sexist twit if he “assumed” that.
And what Pedinska said about your clearly being possessed of myriad unpleasant isms that you do not vindicate well? She’s right.
Assertive behavior to the point of pig-headedness is a trait commonly associated with men. Cheerful indifference to the plight of “others” is also a trait commonly associated with men.
I was going for a sarcastic dismissal of your obstinacy and obvious lack of empathy for Israeli civilians. Your statements resonated with me as those made by a boorish, ill tempered, beer gutted man. And this is what I sought to describe. Apparently sarcasm doesn’t translate well into text.
If you feel vindicated by ascribing various “isms” to me, by all means go ahead. It wouldn’t surprise me one bit.
GC-
You thought someone with the username -Mona- was a man? Sounds like ass covering to me.
I guess you never played World of Warcraft Mr Clever Username? Many men online pretend to be women.
The dead children of Syria are indeed tragic, as are dead children the world over. But, as a Jew and an American taxpayer, I am moved in a uniquely personal way by the horrors visited upon the children of Gaza. I feel responsible, somehow.
This might be one reason why:
U.S. Senate unanimously approves resolution giving full support of Israel on Gaza
(snip)
The resolution, which had 78 bipartisan sponsors, passed late Thursday by unanimous consent, a week after it was introduced by Sens. Robert Menendez (D-N.J.), Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.), Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.) and Kelly Ayotte (R-N.H.).
A similar resolution, introduced by Reps. Steve Israel (D-N.Y.) and Tom Cole (R-Okla.) and with over 140 cosponsors, passed unanimously in the U.S. House of Representatives on July 11.
Yes, I suppose it might.
We’re all responsible! Don’t feel especially bad because you’re Jewish. Feel especially good about it. Most of us find it difficult not to cheer for our own teams, however that’s supposed to be defined. You’ve obviously overcome that. It’s always good to be on the side of the weak, anywhere. It’s what makes us human.
Cheers.
I find it shameful that a self proclaimed Atheist would side with a fanatical religious organization that worships death and misery, such as Hamas just because it’s perceived as weaker.
Not “just because it’s weaker,” because of the history surrounding that place. As GG himself has noted in the past, 60% of Gaza’s children suffer from anemia, 65% of the population is food insecure, because Netanyahu’s aide said that the purpose of the blockade on Gaza is to put the population “on a diet.”
I don’t think Gazan’s have a duty to walk to their death’s like lambs to a slaughter, and just because they decide to stand up as human beings every now and then, doesn’t mean they’re a ‘fanatical religious organization.’
Hamas is an Islamist organization, an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood. It is absolutely a fanatical religious organization.
If you say so. I think I’ll take my information about Hamas from Glenn Greenwald. And it seems to me that if anybody is fanatical, it’s the militant settler population of Israel.
You can take your information about Hamas from Hamas itself. It’s not hiding the fact that it’s an Islamist organization.
Didn’t the people of Gaza vote democratically to walk to their deaths like lambs to the slaughter?
That’s complete BS. There’s no such “collective shrug.” There was almost a “humanitarian intervention” in Syria. Sanctions have been imposed. Rebels there receive material support from governments. There’s a disarmament initiative. In contrast, what is the international community doing about Israel?
Really? Why don’t we have Glenn Greenwald pontificating about Syria then, instead of exposing factual information about the NSA, which is what he should be doing? The average daily death toll in Syria is higher than the death toll in Gaza. Greenwald should be all over that with fiery rhetoric.
Er, um, NOW you are doing whataboutery. (Guess I knew you’d get around to it.)
No that’s a factual statement. The above piece by GG is an op ed, not factual reporting. That he chose to opine on Israel and Gaza rather than Syria shows his priorities.
That question has been addressed so many times. Reality is there’s no need for someone like Glenn Greenwald to pontificate about Syria. Many others already do that. However, when world powers decide to get together to inflict a “humanitarian intervention” upon Syria, that’s precisely when someone like Glenn will be most effective.
No, it’s pure whataboutery. Glenn is being ignoble, else he would be commenting on Syria.
pfffft
Glenn is abusing the platform provided to him for reporting on NSA and GCHQ spying in order to opine on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. There are personal blogs for this. The “factual statement” part was that his opinion piece is indeed one, not reporting.
He may comment on whatever he wants really (on his personal blog preferably). But neither conflict has anything to do with him. He chose to comment on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict while ignoring the conflict in Syria. I am of the opinion that he chose one over the other because it’s more newsworthy – more page views and advertising revenue no doubt, among other perks.
Dead Arabs in Syria? Arabs slaughtering each other? Pfffft not nearly as sexy an an evil apartheid remnant of European colonialism going to war against noble savages in Gaza.
Someone call the police! I’m abusing the platform!
This is a hilariously misinformed reading of the intent of this site:
Glenn is abusing the platform provided to him for reporting on NSA and GCHQ spying in order to opine on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. There are personal blogs for this.
Let me show you why. From the site’s Editor in Chief, John Cook:
Initial short-term focus, in case you missed it. Here’s a bit more:
The site is intended to be a complete news operation, and Greenwald is free to write about anything that he chooses, even during the initial timeframe established for focus on NSA reporting.
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/04/14/passover-greetings-editor/
That small, indeterminate, but discrete period of time devoted to NSA-only (or mostly) reporting now appears to be at an end. Good.
I stand corrected then. But my point about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict being Glenn Greenwald’s choice to blog about due to it being the more sexy subject when compared to Syria, stands.
Israel is a democracy. The biggest welfare democracy in the world, bolstered by billions from the West.
You must have failed reading comprehension in high school. Israeli politicians are elected by the Israeli people and this more than anything will affect the outcome of the conflict. You may disagree with me about the second part, but the first part is indisputable. Your attempt at sarcasm is unoriginal at best.
I don’t know how democratic Israel is (haven’t looked into it very much), but you should know that countries can be considered un-democratic even if their leaders are elected, and even if there’s meaningful political opposition in the country. It happens all the time.
Your comment is a failure on so many levels, it’s almost entertaining.
First of all, the world does care about Syria. The world was about to interfere in Syria, and was only deterred by the fact that the conflict has a sectarian civil war element to it, which has caused divisions in public opinion as to who shoulders most of the blame. But even with governments failing to intervene, thousands of foreign fighters have flocked into Syria to fight along one side or another, something that has not happened in the case of Palestinians since the maybe the 1960’s. So yeah, double fail on that one.
Nobody has the moral right to demand Hamas stop its rockets, because those rockets are a response to an occupation. A wrong response, but a response nonetheless. Israel’s citizens have as much “right to self-defense” as did the Germans occupying France. What happens when there are no rockets? Well, first of all Israel was the one to break the most recent seize-fires. But even ignoring Hamas altogether, look at the West Bank, where there hasn’t been any rockets or bombings in quit a while. Did the settlements stop? No, the Israelis told Obama to shove his request for a freeze up his ass. Did the killing stop? No, Palestinians and international activists are regularly shot at, arrested and intimidated even at non-violent protests. This why the rockets are fired; because Israel has managed to convince the world that when it engages in slow killing and incremental ethnic cleansing, that this is somehow “calm and quiet”. And then you call this “empathy”.
German civilians did not occupy France, it was the army. When Hamas decides to fire rockets at Israeli civilians they, as citizens of Israel have a right to demand that their government stops the barrage.
The empathy part, which apparently escapes you, is that Israeli civilians can suffer too and killing and terrorizing them – a tactical choice made by Hamas – is wrong, regardless of the intended goal. A moral person has every right to demand an end to the rocket attacks on civilians even if the attacks are an attempt at achieving a just aim.
What my comment was about is that those same people whose lives are ok to take, in your opinion, will be the ones deciding how this conflict plays out. Not you. Terrorizing them means the conflict, and thus the suffering of the Palestinians by extension, will continue.
Ironic? More like ‘deplorable’, since this was the very same position that the Third-Reich held over them..
Another reading comprehension fail. Seriously. I made a spelling error there, granted, but such a spectacular failure is astonishing. What I was trying to say is that when you fail to condemn Hamas to attacking Israeli civilians, when you claim it’s totally fine killing Israeli civilians, you are failing to take into account that those people – Israeli civilians – have more impact on the outcome of the conflict than any one else in the world.
Terrorize them, shoot rockets at them? They will vote for hardline politicians and the conflict will continue. This is exactly what happened in the mid 90’s. Hamas decided that the peace process wasn’t good for them, they sent suicide bombers to blow up busses in Israel, next thing you know Rabin was shot dead and a year later Benjamin Netanyahu was elected for the first time.
gc..
Are you a Palestinian that is currently residing in the Gaza Strip? If not, I’d politely request that you tunnel under the wall that currently cages them, try living on 12 hours of electricity a day, boil your contaminated water for consumption, attempt to fly out of their International Airport (.. or sail from any ‘port’ for that matter), and then report on the utopia that is their existence.
Safe Travels..
Who says it’s totally fine to kill Israeli civilians? Do you have a quote? Understanding that there’s an explanation for an action is not the same as justifying that action. Ideally, people should find non-violent solutions to their grievances, but it’s not at all surprising if the oppressed tries to fight back against the oppressor. The oppressor should focus less on “self-defense” and more on stopping the oppression. When people don’t have grievances, they rarely resort to gratuituous violence. If they do anyway, we’re talking about something else entirely, and at that point we can reassess the situation.
By pissed Jewish terrorists. At least you grasp that very angry people do resort to terrorism.
A people oppressed by having their land continually stolen, as they are penned up in an open air prison, while being slaughtered by their oppressor, are going to be very, very angry, indeed.
Israel is manufacturing hordes of terrorists for generations to come.
[quote]By pissed Jewish terrorists[/quote]
I never claimed otherwise.
[quote]Israel is manufacturing hordes of terrorists for generations to come.[/quote] Unless of course Israel decides to live up to the name calling here and actually slaughter all of them.
Crap! That’s not how you quote here :<
Back to the group home for further training.Your best just aint good enough.
Thank you, for your informative and useful contribution to the discussion.
What in the hell is going on with the new website? Is John working or playing video games on the internet all day?
He’s probably keeping the NSA/GCHQ busy. Helping the economy and everyfing inniit!
All of this vicious fighting between brothers over a tiny sliver of land.. Meanwhile r1b steals and exterminates 5 continents using their government. and every headline on earth for decades “the jews are committing genocide!” Where the fuck do you want them to go?
Once again r1b intentionally makes everyone miserable and makes everyone evolve like shit.
Made the jews leave Israel in the first place then made them return after exterminating a third of them putting them right back on top of another population.
A tiny little sliver of land, you got enough leg room over there r1b? Don’t think about “expanding” anywhere with your “settlements” jews!. Maybe make the borders a little smaller, hey, lets stuff the Hindu’s in there too.
Deaf ass mother fuckers. Is that why Gaddafi’s megaphone was a problem. Fucking liars.
Hey everyone in Israel and Palestine just get in wheel chairs and be gay, r1b will love that, hand your children some drugs and porn, then they’ll start leaving you alone.. just act really really retarded from now on. put up pictures of hilary clinton on your walls, or some other red headed clown. ur not eating pork? wtf! eat shit, fast!
My sincere apologies. Please forgive me, I am in very bad condition with some brain damage from r1b’s torture sessions, I honestly don’t feel too responsible for my own words sometimes. My previous statement may have seemed “RACIST” (!).
I meant to say -red headed clown “that steals”, not just “red headed clown”. I didn’t mean to offend anyone that may have red hair that doesn’t steal.
Hey when they did that blotched terror sting on me (that I wrote about on theintercepts muslim surveillance article) the r1b fbi intentionally held off their cia orchestrated gun sale for three days until saint patricks day trying to force me to do the transaction in a crowded mcdonalds on sunday morning!
– then like a couple weeks before I get off house arrest they “somehow” direct me to publicintelligence.net website showing a link (that mysteriously just disappeared off the site) to a letter to my local fusion center on some old chemical weapons testing site that “just happened to be about a mile from where I live!”
the letter to the fusion center from the government was just to notify them that their might be some “canisters or vials of old chemical and biological weapons, just laying around everywhere back there” (like 20 miles from disney world) It showed a detailed map of exactly where they claimed the old site’s cleanup missed. Then like a couple days after I get off house arrest I “coincidently” ended up with an appointment about a hundred yards from that site! what a “coincidence”!
If that chemical testing site really did exist, the fusion center is about the last place on earth you’d want to send a letter notifying of it.
Can someone please give me asylum assistance, they keep trying to frame me over and over and over again for no reason at all. They’ve been terrorizing me since I was a baby. get me the fuck away from here. I don’t do anything wrong at all and they keep forcing it to look like im doing something and torturing me and stealing all my money so I can’t leave. I don’t want anything to do with these fucking people.
Perhaps you could teach English in Ecuador?
I would literally walk there right now if they’d lift my court supervision for my fake crime (or my 4th fake crime or whatever it is).
I think I plagiarized that “your not eating pork? wtf! eat shit fast!” comment now that I think about it. I think it was on that nazi site that was teaching r1b’s how to falsify archaeology “evidence”, while simultaneously saying they found european dna that predated native americans in north America…
Thank you Glenn! And thanks also to Jonathan Schwarz!! What a hideous thing to say. I couldn’t believe it when I first heard it. This is supposed to be the Americanized version of the Israeli politician?
Just watched Max Blumenthal on democracy now. God he’s fantastic! Uncompromising! Exacting with his detail! And funny.
On the point about recklessness, consider the case of flight MH17. Even if it was shot down accidentally (by someone other than the US or Israel), it’s quite obvious that the perpetrators can’t just claim “collateral damage” and have everyone forget all about it.
The US shot down an Iranian airliner. Ooops our bad is all that happened.
1976, CIA used plastic explosives disguised in a tube of Colgate toothpaste to bring down Cubana Flight 455, killing all 73 people aboard the civilian Cuban airliner. http://www.globalresearch.ca/new-toothpaste-terrorism-used-in-the-1970s-by-a-cia-asset/5389189
*CIA has a thing for messing with peoples toothpaste products..
The ships captain was given a medal,to rub it in Iran’s face.
Related to the points in Glenn’s article is the Guardian’s Harriet Sherwood on thuggish Israelis threatening journalists while partying on a hill overlooking Gaza as they cheer on the bombing and massacre there. Pictures and videos of these disgusting displays are being posted all over the Internet:
Whole thing here: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israelis-cheer-gaza-bombing
Every day it gets clearer why governments want control of the internet as well as establishing the means to monitor our use of it. Glenn, every day my admiration grows for what you, Snowden, and your team have done and continue to do. Thank you.
The reckless destruction is nauseating. The sad thing is that it is a Groundhog Day scenario that just keeps happening over and over. I believe the only thing that will change the dynamic is a South Africa strategy that makes Israel pay a price for refusing a reasonable settlement of the situation. Government sanctions around the world and boycotts of Israel goods.
Friedman — an honest neo-con sociopath, if you will — has previously stated that the Iraq war was a way to collectively punish Muslims (“suck on this”), and it really could’ve been any Middle East country. If that can’t be called terrorism, what can?
Bibi Netanyahu to Gaza Palestinians, “We just want you to be safe…”
Horse-shit personified, just like EVERY member of a completely corrupt U.S. Senate.
quote”Horse-shit personified, just like EVERY member of a completely corrupt U.S. Senate.”unquote
Hear hear!! A completely corrupt U.S. Senate indeed. I can see them groveling right now, as AIPAC makes a housecall on every one of them. Fucking bastards.
Netanyahu’s comment in line with his minister Naftali Bennett’s accusation of Hamas self-genocide.
Yes, a thousand times over. I’m heartily sick of hearing foreseeable civilian casualties described as “accidents.” If you are a leader contemplating ordering a military action that you know carries a high risk of civilian casualties, and you say “Fuck it, let’s do it anyway.”, that’s not an accident. I’d say the words “Fuck it, let’s do it anyway” neatly sum up the default attitude of Israeli and U.S. military leaders towards doing violence against both human beings and rule of law.
The rule is that you’re not allowed to compare any country with Nazi Germany until said country actually has freight trains carrying boxcars full of people off to death camps.
Yes, Glenn knows that people try to impose that rule. Follow his embedded link in the words “in direct violation of what were to become the Nuremberg Principles.” It’s a hoot- Mike Godwin himself showed up in support of Glenn’s treatment of “Godwin’s Law.”
Excellent. Thanks for calling my attention to that link, Mona.
Indeed. The Internet has been utterly magnificent at greatly undermining the hasbara brigades and various Israeli public spokespersons.
And it”s not simply the graphic pictures of slaughtered Gazan civilians, including children with heads blown off. It’s the ability to make viral Israeli press coverage that is intended for Israeli consumption, that runs wholly counter to PR efforts to depict Israelis as suffering egregiously from those scary pop bottle rockets.
Pictures of hundreds of happy campers recreating away at a Tel Aviv beach do not contrast well with bombed-out Gazan schools and homes, and streets littered with corpses. Nor with snappy pieces advising Tel Aviv to stay calm and “remember to tip the sushi boy.” (Times of Israel about a week ago.)
And to address journalists, the U.S. media has predominantly been reciting from the Zionist script, but not entirely. Journalists like Jake Tapper follow many sources, including pro-Palestinian ones. This is evident in how Tapper treats his (mostly) excellent interviews and reporting on these events.
Social media informing good journalists is proving to be a superb combination for reporting truth.
Wow, it is easier to understand the article of Glenn Grennwald than the comment. But my vocabulary improves…
By the way excellent article!
I am beginning to wonder if there is any truth in the undisguised bullshit which characterizes contemporary geopolitical leaders and events. One can only hope that the old adage, “He whom the gods would destroy, they first make mad with power”, is still in play.
No, and yes (respectively)…
we begining to wander Israel did not choose this war, Israel did not start the war, Israel agreed to a ceasefire, Hamas Refused! The war forced upon Israel. Israel will do everything necessary to protect its citizens. This is not only a right to self-defense, this is a duty! Every country has the right to self-defense, including Israel! Israel must protect its citizens. Hamas is a terrorist organization. Do not expect from terrorists support peace. They prefer war. For me, it is impossible to support terrorists, it is impossible to support a terrorist organization! How can you support such horrible people?? Terrorists who murder, kidnap and harm innocent civilians. Terrorists who support #death over #life. terrorists that in their entire life just thinking about how to destroy the State of Israel. When you support Hamas, you collaborate with terrorists who kill even their own people. Hamas doesn’t care about #gaza civilians, let’s make it clear. Hamas attacks Israel from civilian areas. Hamas does not protect its citizens, he use them as human shields. Hamas #hide behind innocent civilians, put them in #risk and place them on the fire line. #did_you_know that Hamas hide their weapons in #houses ,#hospitals #holy_places and #Schools?! Hamas #kill anyone who doesn’t follow their religion !!! People in Gaza have no freedom of speech . Hamas kills anyone who does not think like them and people in Gaza are afraid to say what they think. So tell me, IS IT CONSIDERED HUMANE TO KILL PEOPLE JUST BECAUSE THEY DO NOT THINK LIKE YOU?! Hamas kills its citizens. If you will “#PrayForGaza” today, Pray for Gaza’s #Freedom From #Hamas. Hamas does not want peace. Even when there is no war, for Hamas there. Hamas looks for war…They dig tunnels in order to kidnap Israeli civilians and kill many innocent people, they collect weapons and sending suicide bombers into Israel. Israel did not allow herself to live under threat. And I support it. I support Israel’s right to exist and defend itself. If Israel will cease to defend itself, Israel will cease to exist. Israel is strong, #Now and #Forever