Throughout the last year, the U.S. government has repeatedly insisted that it does not engage in economic and industrial espionage, in an effort to distinguish its own spying from China’s infiltrations of Google, Nortel, and other corporate targets. So critical is this denial to the U.S. government that last August, an NSA spokesperson emailed The Washington Post to say (emphasis in original): “The department does ***not*** engage in economic espionage in any domain, including cyber.”
After that categorical statement to the Post, the NSA was caught spying on plainly financial targets such as the Brazilian oil giant Petrobras; economic summits; international credit card and banking systems; the EU antitrust commissioner investigating Google, Microsoft, and Intel; and the International Monetary Fund and World Bank. In response, the U.S. modified its denial to acknowledge that it does engage in economic spying, but unlike China, the spying is never done to benefit American corporations.
Director of National Intelligence James Clapper, for instance, responded to the Petrobras revelations by claiming: “It is not a secret that the Intelligence Community collects information about economic and financial matters…. What we do not do, as we have said many times, is use our foreign intelligence capabilities to steal the trade secrets of foreign companies on behalf of—or give intelligence we collect to—U.S. companies to enhance their international competitiveness or increase their bottom line.”
But a secret 2009 report issued by Clapper’s own office explicitly contemplates doing exactly that. The document, the 2009 Quadrennial Intelligence Community Review—provided by NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden—is a fascinating window into the mindset of America’s spies as they identify future threats to the U.S. and lay out the actions the U.S. intelligence community should take in response. It anticipates a series of potential scenarios the U.S. may face in 2025, from a “China/Russia/India/Iran centered bloc [that] challenges U.S. supremacy” to a world in which “identity-based groups supplant nation-states,” and games out how the U.S. intelligence community should operate in those alternative futures—the idea being to assess “the most challenging issues [the U.S.] could face beyond the standard planning cycle.”
One of the principal threats raised in the report is a scenario “in which the United States’ technological and innovative edge slips”— in particular, “that the technological capacity of foreign multinational corporations could outstrip that of U.S. corporations.” Such a development, the report says “could put the United States at a growing—and potentially permanent—disadvantage in crucial areas such as energy, nanotechnology, medicine, and information technology.”
How could U.S. intelligence agencies solve that problem? The report recommends “a multi-pronged, systematic effort to gather open source and proprietary information through overt means, clandestine penetration (through physical and cyber means), and counterintelligence” (emphasis added). In particular, the DNI’s report envisions “cyber operations” to penetrate “covert centers of innovation” such as R&D facilities.
In a graphic describing an “illustrative example,” the report heralds “technology acquisition by all means.” Some of the planning relates to foreign superiority in surveillance technology, but other parts are explicitly concerned with using cyber-espionage to bolster the competitive advantage of U.S. corporations. The report thus envisions a scenario in which companies from India and Russia work together to develop technological innovation, and the U.S. intelligence community then “conducts cyber operations” against “research facilities” in those countries, acquires their proprietary data, and then “assesses whether and how its findings would be useful to U.S. industry” (click on image to enlarge):
The document doesn’t describe any previous industrial espionage, a fact the DNI’s office emphasized in responding to questions from The Intercept. A spokesman, Jeffrey Anchukaitis, insisted in an email that “the United States—unlike our adversaries—does not steal proprietary corporate information to further private American companies’ bottom lines,” and that “the Intelligence Community regularly engages in analytic exercises to identify potential future global environments, and how the IC could help the United States Government respond.” The report, he said, “is not intended to be, and is not, a reflection of current policy or operations.”
Yet the report describes itself as “an essential long-term piece, looking out between 10 and 20 years” designed to enable “the IC [to] best posture itself to meet the range of challenges it may face.” Whatever else is true, one thing is unmistakable: the report blithely acknowledges that stealing secrets to help American corporations secure competitive advantage is an acceptable future role for U.S. intelligence agencies.
In May, the U.S. Justice Department indicted five Chinese government employees on charges that they spied on U.S. companies. At the time, Attorney General Eric Holder said the spying took place “for no reason other than to advantage state-owned companies and other interests in China,” and “this is a tactic that the U.S. government categorically denounces.”
But the following day, The New York Times detailed numerous episodes of American economic spying that seemed quite similar. Harvard Law School professor and former Bush Justice Department official Jack Goldsmith wrote that the accusations in the indictment sound “a lot like the kind of cyber-snooping on firms that the United States does.” But U.S. officials continued to insist that using surveillance capabilities to bestow economic advantage for the benefit of a country’s corporations is wrong, immoral, and illegal.
Yet this 2009 report advocates doing exactly that in the event that “that the technological capacity of foreign multinational corporations outstrip[s] that of U.S. corporations.” Using covert cyber operations to pilfer “proprietary information” and then determining how it “would be useful to U.S. industry” is precisely what the U.S. government has been vehemently insisting it does not do, even though for years it has officially prepared to do precisely that.
Illustration: Getty Images
and we thought we were only sharing our secret with the pentagon and secret service! While Facebook and gmail only read what we write to send us the best targeted advert!
I am thankful for the intercept. As we all know to be informed of what is really going on is to be armed with the truth. Thank you, Intercept
I am relieved
Vindication.
A sidebar on intel and US business interest. This story may explain a thing or two.
http://news.yahoo.com/1-trillion-trove-rare-minerals-revealed-under-afghanistan-114520215.html
As Smedley Butler once said (1933), “The flag follows the dollar and the soldiers follow the flag.”
Glenn, a general comment on all your great INTERCEPT stories.
People need historical context. History is unappreciated by the American public because there are no dollar signs involved. Schools are very lax on requiring History. The big corporate propaganda media never gives context, real details or historical context but just emotional flashes and buzz words that are used to control the thought process of the viewers.
SUGGESTION – please ad more historical references and details to stories. Maybe even some footnotes or links at the end so people can do some research on their own, so that they can get the real big picture on a subject or event. WE need to get more people engaged in digging out the truth from all the garbage we get from government and the elite controlled media.
Why – So that more people can actually become informed on events, and maybe, just maybe they will begin to look for answers outside of the 24/7/365 mind control media attacks we all have to endure.
Keep up the excellent work of bringing truth to light.
Have you seen this article?
“CIA ‘tortured al-Qaeda suspects close to the point of death by drowning them in water-filled baths”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/al-qaeda/11080450/CIA-tortured-al-Qaeda-suspects-close-to-the-point-of-death-by-drowning-them-in-water-filled-baths.html
“The White House and the State Department fear that the Senate report could still cause a backlash and have made preparations for increased security at sensitive sites when it is eventually published.
Despite the destruction of video evidence, however, a third source familiar with the still-classified accounts of the most severe of the CIA interrogations, said that the practices were much more brutal than is widely understood.
“They got medieval on his ass, and far more so than people realise,” the source told The Telegraph referring to the treatment of Mohammed and Nashiri, but declined to provide further details because of the still-classified nature of the material.”
Sometimes, I wonder who is more despicable, the USG/cronies or ISIS. My mind is made up. Stay classy America.
Sorry, I see Coram has already posted this.
False choice. Each are despicable in their own inimitable ways.
Tom Tomorrow is especially brilliant today.
Capt. Kirk vs. the internet
When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves, in the course of time, a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.
– Frederic Bastiat
OT: Ken White of Popehat on UC Chancellor Dirks’ not-so-subtle undermining of the First Amendment:
http://www.popehat.com/2014/09/06/u-c-berkeley-chancellor-nicholas-dirks-gets-free-speech-very-wrong/
An excellent read for folks having serious discussions on the importance and legality of First Amendment issues.
Wow, I do wonder if Chancellor Dirks really believes that he has that much control over the students. Let’s hope not. He clearly fears the concept of true free speech and his legal inability to censor it.
Very well fisked-out by Ken White, I’d say. (I just had to use the word “fisked” – h/t Pedinska) – after all; one wouldn’t want the term to fall into desuetude. (h/t Mona)
Now off to my Fiskaholics Anonymous meeting….
“”If we do not succeed, we run the risk of failure.” – Former Vice-President Dan Quayle
Now off to my Fiskaholics Anonymous meeting….
LOL. Methinks we could support a chapter here in the comment section at TI. ;-}
State sponsored Capitalism is Fascism. We are there!
The Telegraph claims it has some info in advance of the torture memo.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/al-qaeda/11080450/CIA-tortured-al-Qaeda-suspects-close-to-the-point-of-death-by-drowning-them-in-water-filled-baths.html
@ coram nobis:
There are no words to describe the path that the United States has walked as a result of the intricate machinations initiated by the Bush Crime Cabal. Let the investigations begin and hopefully pull out all of the trash going back to George Herbert (Bert) Walker. Let me help:
“Nazis & Bush Family History: Government Investigated Bush Family’s Financing Of Hitler By Carla Binion OnlineJournal.com 11-22-1″
http://www.rense.com/general17/bushhitler.htm
Time to close the circle.
All very well, although someone who used to teach constitutional law may also know about some of the other branches of law, for instance, that at some point being an accessory after the fact is a crime in itself. I fancy that this applies to financial crimes as well as crimes against humanity and war crimes.
@ coram nobis:
I hope that your preliminary impressions are correct and that all pertinent areas of crime receive scrutiny sooner than later.
Have you “Family of Secrets” by Russ Baker Lyra1? I have not, but I have watched a few Youtube videos by Russ Baker. Very interesting to see ‘Freedom and Democracy’ in action.
*Have you read “Family of Secrets”…..
@ Rolling with the times:
No…not the full book but I was able to turn-up some portions of it at this link:
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/esp_sociopol_bush59.htm
Interesting to say the least.
Here is a link to an interview.
Family of Secrets Part 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2UuTNXUFp8
Via BoingBoing:
Switzerland reportedly offers Snowden safe passage, immunity from extradition
Not sure the article supports Cory’s headline and lede though:
The translation is rough. Then there is the rather large caveat it contains:
http://boingboing.net/2014/09/08/switzerland-reportedly-offers.html
Bolding above is my emphasis.
Unless the Attorney General and or POTUS announce to the nation on TV that Snowden has been pardoned or given complete immunity to prosecution I don’t believe and others shouldn’t either any claims of keeping him safe.
Edward Snowden is a hero! The large amount of evidence-Edward Snowden documents, nation wide civil rights violations by police, Judicial Branch failing to be the constitutional check to the Executive and Legislative Branches, IRS, Family Courts and unjust wars-suggest the enemy is our government. Along with that cartel called the Bar Association.
Sillyputty 08 Sep 2014 at 8:01 am
What Mona said re: the “read more comments” button
Or, just get rid of the damn thing, because you can no longer externally link to a direct quote. In other words you broke the one thing that did work.
Yup. We have now lost our ability to link to specific comments which is particularly a shame in that, true to the form we have come to understand operates here, comments with multiple links do not appear for some indeterminate time, yet, when they DO appear, they are plopped down into the timeline based on the time they were submitted as opposed to the time the system finally determines they are harmless enough to be published.
That means that a very informative, multiple link comment posted by Vivek Jain @ 06 Sep 2014 at 5:03 am has been deposited with a good chunk of commenting real estate above it, almost ensuring that only the most dedicated of readers will come across it. Shame on the IT folks here for that. There are six links, all of which should be bookmarked and explored. I will leave it to readers to do the search since, if I reproduce them, this comment will also end up in the ether for an indeterminate amount of time. I will, however, reproduce some of the quotes – with some bolding of my own – to get the salivary glands properly primed:
Americans need frequent reminders about the Wolfowitz Doctrine:
this excerpt from Kennan’s PPS23 (from 1948) and its relevance to imperialist objectives:
And this gem excerpted from a Parenti article:
That last bolded bit is really monumentally self-evident if one takes any kind of time to really look at US history of intervention around the world. Smedley Butler saw it up-close and personal and had some rather pointed remarks to make about it as well. Only the most slavering of authoritarian exceptionalists who benefit in the most rank ways from these interventions willfully choose to disbelieve that fact.
Postscript 1: to TI IT department: Pleasepleaseplease, do something to make comments with multiple links appear in a more timely fashion. Barring that, please publish guidelines indicating clearly that folks should post multiple links into something that resembles storify or numbered tweets so that there hard work doesn’t just disappear completely from consideration.
Postscript 2: to Vivek Jain, thank you very much for such a great and informative comment.
@ Pedinska:
Thanks for the heads-up on the Vivek Jain comment which I would certainly have missed without your careful scrutiny.
Some are silver and others gold….but that one was platinum.
The links therein, deserve an exclusive folder. Truly a masterpiece comment.
@Pedinska – Thank you very much for adding your voice to the comment section anomalies, as well as the excellent breakdown of Vivek Jain’s links – and thanks to Vivek Jain for taking the time to make such a compelling case with citations ans references here.
I’m on the fence (I know, no tears shall be shed) as to staying with this comment section – on the one hand it offers the space and the diversity of thought I want, while on the other hand suffers from technical difficulties that appear to have more to do with fixing what isn’t broken rather than fostering discourse.
I realize that from an IT perspective that TI is more complicated than many sites, in that it has likely been specifically targeted by those who want to “own the internet” – thus making the TI site secure and easy to use is more problematic (insert ironic NSA analogy here) – so I wish the TI Techs godspeed in their efforts to get this site to be what we all want it to be.
““The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place.” – George Bernard Shaw
I was told my first attempt to post failed. That is why I wrote again??????
The new format is excellent. Congratulations to all.
Glenn, you have rung the bell again. NSA is a Panopticon conceived in silliness and executed in madness. It manifested on Obama’s watch for which I roundly condemn him as his complicit predecessors. How to dig the country out of this hole?? All is corruption. Our policies in the ME and Ukraine continue to lead us towards chaos.
I’m getting used to the new commenting format, but there is a change I strongly recommend: place the message offering to see more comments at the top, right under the article.
That way, new readers will know there are probably many more comments than they see — not the mere paucity that is initially displayed. This would encourage people to read them all and jump in. With the announcement less noticeable at the bottom of comments some people might take a quick glance and walk away.
I like the new format but I agree with Mona.
I have to read the comments after these incredible news releases because I learn more.
The Intercept gives me hope for humanity and this country!
Keep up the good work…..
What Mona said re: the “read more comments” button
Or, just get rid of the damn thing, because you can no longer externally link to a direct quote. In other words you broke the one thing that did work.
Also, the “reply” was directly to Mona’s comment, yet ended up at the top, so that is broken/hit-or-miss too. We’ll see if this reply directly to my earlier comment becomes dissociated too.
It only appears dissociated until you hit the “read more comments” button. The disconcerting rearrangement that happens after that seems to plop it into its proper perspective wrt the comment it is in reply to.
It seems like the comments that appear when one refreshes the page are the most recent that have been added, almost like a preview of “new stuff”, but out of context. And, due to the short amount of space/comments available (prior to clicking on “read more”), I’m not at all sure that all new comments posted since one last refreshed are showing up above the “read more” button and you still need to page down through the section to see them in their proper place.
“It only appears dissociated until you hit the “read more comments” button.”
Thanks Pedinska – I finally unscrambled that egg as well. Having to do it again after reloading a page with a lot of comments to see potential new comments or when you comment yourself adds to the redundancy and detracts greatly from its “user-friendliness.”
@ Sillyputty:
Another possible fix would be to change the “View More comments” bar to read “View All Comments.”
However, it would still be a redundant program loop that could be eliminated by reverting back to the old comments program.
After having expended a considerable amount of time drawing this to the attention of the IT gurus of TI, I have concluded that they do not wish to revert to the program that worked in a user-friendly fashion. Instead they have opted to terrorize users with this dysfunctional program which will ultimately act to reduce their account data base. Maybe that is what they want. After all it is their publication….Who cares if people actually read the articles and want to comment? Apparently that is just not “important”.
OK then…whatever.
Instead they have opted to terrorize users with this dysfunctional program which will ultimately act to reduce their account data base.
I have certainly had my fill of exasperation with this system, but I sincerely doubt that the hoops we are being put through, and the subsequent frustration, are the actual goal of the folks working with it. My guess would be that they are trying to make the comment section as secure as possible and that the tools they are working with are at odds with the results desired.
Having said that, I have no experience whatsoever with such things, so who knows. :-s
@ Pedinska:
I see no benefit to security associated with the program changes to the comment entry or display fields. It is a public board which allows for the use of identity masking.
There may be a potential benefit to spam filtering or comment statistics of which I am unaware.
The format…that of showing the most recent comments only on the article and opening a new window into the full comments section; is quite common on many news sites. Most of the large bugs appear to have been rectified; but, an explanation that the comments section had been changed and to expect beta-testing bugs in implementation would have been nice for prior users. This caution could have been posted as a feature notice.
At this time…the easiest fix is to change the color of the “View More Comments” Bar to Red and bold the Text. If possible, change the words to read: “View All Comments.” Beyond these minor changes, the comments section of TI is essentially functional.
Yes…you are right and I can be quite sarcastic. No news organization (Firstlook, TI or their consolidated IT Staff) would willingly push readers or users away for obvious reasons. I’m a mean-spirited female dog.
The format…that of showing the most recent comments only on the article and opening a new window into the full comments section; is quite common on many news sites.
Ah, I was unaware of this. Thank you. I am actually starting to see the usefulness of that sort of “previewing” or “alerting” to what’s new, just wasn’t sure if all new comments were captured on each refresh. As I read down through the thread, I noticed quite a few that I’d missed on refreshes – or maybe just from being offline – so a basic explanation somewhere on the site that folks could point others to would be a nice touch.
I’m a mean-spirited female dog.
I’m willing to pick up the feline role. Maybe we should form a club. ;-}
‘Preview?? We don’t need no stinking Preview!!’ (.. or an individualized archive, for that matter)
With all due respect, this latest ‘format’ is fubar.. Having been ‘off the grid’ for a spell, this latest improvement is anything but. For ‘shits & giggles’, I went back to Sept. 2011 (.. prior to the revision that still lives in ‘infamy’ – ht`coram nobz) and found this tasty nugget via the distinguished `teri49..
Original Article: U.S. not “standing idly by” in Bahrain
SATURDAY, SEP 24, 2011 01:12 AM EDT
Glenn Greenwald
..
Libya, right on schedule.
One of the first buildings bombed by NATO in Libya was the (nationalized) Central Bank of Libya. The overseas assets in this bank were worth roughly 150 billion dollars, which were frozen as part of the NATO/UN sanctions before the humanitarian intervention™. NATO countries now hold 100 b of those funds. Before the freezing of the funds, the money was owned by the people of Libya. Before the intervention, Libya had no debt.
Before the intervention, schools, hospitals, and health care were offered free of cost to the Libyan people. The literacy rate was 89% and the teacher to student ratio was 1 to 17. Ghaddafi had put price controls on food products into effect so that hunger issues stemming from the rising cost of staples didn’t affect the population as it had in Egypt and Tunisia.
Now that NATO has hit residential areas, schools, hospitals, the water supply lines and electric facilities with tens of thousands of bomb strikes, Libya’s infrastructure is in tatters. Depleted uranium lies all over the country, seeping into waterways and the soil. In August, UNICEF warned that the bombing of Libya’s water system could turn into an unprecedented health epidemic. Libya needs to rebuild itself. The way this is done now [see: Iraq] is not through reparations from the invading countries to the beleaguered nation; after destroying the infrastructure of a country, the decimated country itself is expected to pay for its own reconstruction, usually via loans from the IMF and World Bank. In Libya, this is especially poignant, as Libya would have had enough cash to rebuild itself (now that it is customary for the invaded to pay for their invasion) had the US and other NATO countries not stolen its sovereign wealth.
*******************
Based on evolving events in Libya and the views of member countries, the World Bank today announced that it is engaging with the National Transitional Council (NTC) as the Government of Libya.
As Libya begins its recovery from conflict, the World Bank has been asked to lead the effort in the areas of public expenditure and financial management, infrastructure repair, job creation for young people and service delivery.
The World Bank joins the United Nations and the European Union as one of the three institutions invited by Libya’s National Transitional Council (NTC) to coordinate assistance for the north African nation as it forges a path forward after months of violent conflict.
Specifically, the Bank has been asked to examine the need for repair and restoration of services in the water, energy and transport sectors and, in cooperation with the International Monetary Fund, to support budget preparation and help the banking sector back on to its feet. Employment generation for young Libyans has been added as an urgent need facing the country.
************************
In other words, the World Bank, IMF and other donors will lend back to the Libyan people, at high interest rates, some of the money that was stolen from them – to rebuild the infrastructure which NATO destroyed. Instead of a creditor nation, which Libya was, it will now be a debtor nation. As an added bonus, the newly-formed African Union bank, set up in Cameroon with its original funding from Ghaddafi, formed specifically to pay off IMF debts owed by some of the other African countries, has also been destroyed by the seizing of Libya’s assets. The next step [see:Iraq, etc.], is for multi-national companies, rather than local Libyans, to be awarded no-bid contracts for the rebuilding.
This is what we think is better for Libyans than what they had.
http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/NEWS/0,,contentMDK:22998913~pagePK:34370~piPK:34424~theSitePK:4607,00.html
@ suave:
Concur on two counts:
1. “With all due respect, this latest ‘format’ is fubar.” I would capitalize the FUBAR part.
2. “The World Bank joins the United Nations and the European Union as one of the three institutions” Insert the word “Terrrorist” before the word “institutions” and add: US Federal Reserve, All Central Banks, IMF, World Bank, and Bank of International Settlements. Also consider adding focus to the following organizations: Committee of 300, Round Table and all think tanks like the Bilderberger Group, Trilateral Commission, Club of Rome, Royal Institute for International Affairs and Council on Foreign Relations.
Thanks. Take care.
The new format of Intercept is very attractive and accessible. Congratulations to all!
Glenn, You have rung the bell again with this report. NSA is a latter day Panopticon. The worse fears of public have been conformed, although many people are either not aware or don’t care. More the pity. This materialized on Obama’s watch for which I roundly condemn him and his complicit predecessors. He continues to blunder along in the ME and Ukraine not knowing which end is up. He is a Babbitt when we need a principled leader. But then we also need a principled government. All seems corrupt.
This story does not surprise me. Why not do espionage on behalf of our corporations? Already our government does everything for them:
-Our government goes to war for corporations (only one recent example was Iraq’s oil for our beloved big oil companies).
-Also, our elected and appointed officials make and pass laws that protect corporations versus the US citizens who elected them (just a few examples: all the anti-consumer, anti-citizen ALEC laws passed; also, FCC and FDA decisions against the welfare of Americans).
-In addition, our Supreme Court makes sure that laws that may curb or stop corporations from harming citizens do not pass or are annulled (just recently, and only one example of many, the Citizen’s United decision ruling that corporations are people and money is speech).
-Moreover, our president makes sure that national health care laws protect corrupt health insurance companies and pharmaceutical corporations by passing a law that continues to allow and in fact enhances the opportunities for these corporations to continue to increase their customer base, premium rates, and corruption while giving them the gift of a more profitable business courtesy of American tax dollars.
-My last example of government largess to corporations, although there are many, many, many more, is how our IRS’s hands are tied so that through legislative loopholes they have to return billions in tax dollars to billionaire, profitable corporations, thus lowering many corporate taxes to zero, or as low as 13%.
Let’s make no mistake about it – the US government, made up of our elected officials and those they appoint to office, represents the corporations and the richest 1% of the country – not the people. Get used to it! Stop whining. Moreover, it is only going to get worse, hence the reason for our militarized police forces to keep the hoi polloi in their place.
The QICR document makes quite plain that the collection and analysis of data is about National Security, which encompasses far more than terrorism. For a very good, although somewhat scholarly perspective of how National Security has evolved in the United States, see The Limits of National Security (pdf file). Excerpt:
Inventions,investments, science can all be stolen or blocked by banks and the money junkies. The message is “You work for us now”.
A subject that apparently inspires a great deal of defensive rationalizing and whataboutery in response, Mr. Glenn, and that always indicates a nerve well struck. Pretending these practices are only about national security is having cake and eating it, too. Its just one more piece of evidence the great capitalism standard bearer of supposedly fair and competitive “free markets” – has long rigged their own game.
Nice shot.
Companies generally work differently here in The US. Companies in The US are for the most part, private companies, and our government institutions generally are not motivated to make a profit. In China, many of the big companies are government owned and exist to make a profit. The US generally does not give technology that it’s gleaned from spying to private companies in The US, but some sharing does occur when private companies get government contracts. To some, this may not seem like much of a difference, but it makes a massive difference.
Well Mr. James Clapper, this is one more ‘stolen’ document (out of ‘1.7 million documents”) that you can check off your Edward Snowden list. This is one you don’t have to worry about any more -that exposes the NSA as a hypocritical and egregious spy agency. Where are your usual whores (John Boehner, Diane Feinstein, Mike Rodgers, Peter King, Barack Obama, Keith Alexander, just to name a few) to ask for the death penalty of Mr. Snowden?
Come on Mr. Clapper, go on the T.V. and make a new pronouncement that this ‘stolen’ document hits below the belt. Oh, I get it, the mainstream media didn’t even cover this story… Just hoping this story will be buried and forgot about. It was just lunch.
The underlying assumption of the QICR report is that collecting every piece of available data in the world is not only justified, but necessary. In their view, this is not a violation of privacy, since as stated in the report:
The word “anonymized” is placed in quotes, presumably because the data can be de-anonymized very quickly. Suppose a new political party poses a threat to the established system. Based on its universal data repository, the NSA can now issue a request to produce a complete list of all party members, all people who have close contacts with party members, and all people who share similar beliefs to party members. In other words, the privacy is only illusory, because it can be stripped away anytime your data gets caught up in a net cast by the NSA.
Automated analysis means searching for patterns. The implication is that actions which are individually innocent (talking to a stranger, travelling abroad, visiting a political website) can when considered together reach some threshold which flags that person as a threat. This has the effect of curtailing freedom. Since no one knows what the threshold is, or even which actions may be considered part of some suspicious pattern, the prudent course is to avoid any action which might be even remotely suspicious. In other words, people will begin to behave as if they are under continual surveillance, because they are under continual surveillance. So clearly the collection and automated analysis of data does infringe on privacy, even when that data is “anonymized”.
That’s a good point to make. However, you’re not improving on the argument that the government shouldn’t be allowed to collect the private data of citizens who are not suspected of criminal activity (which is Greenwald’s position, I believe) – that the infringement of privacy occurs at the point of collection, not at the further point of “automated analysis” of the data. Once the government is allowed to collect the data, it can be assumed they’re going to search it, and the question is whether or not they are looking only for real terrorists. If they’re targeting “a new political party [that] poses a threat to the established system”, that’s an abuse that doesn’t necessarily flow from the collection and analysis. Yes, they would be “searching for patterns”, but that isn’t a problem if they are only patterns that indicate possible involvement in terrorism, and the “threshold” is set very high. A low threshold (or broad definition of “terrorism”) is not determined by the collection and analysis.
So, if the “infringement of privacy” doesn’t occur at the point of bulk collection, then it can only occur when the data is used to target citizens who are not suspected of involvement in terrorism, and the question is whether or not the government can be trusted with the data. This question cannot be addressed with an argument that assumes the government cannot be trusted.
I was addressing the specific point made by the QICR that you can analyze bulk data without invading privacy. This is based on the sophistry that computer algorithms are some sort of objective analysis, when in fact they reflect the assumptions and prejudices of those who create them.
But people also lose some privacy by the very fact that data is collected in the first place. First, the security of the data is not perfect, so its existence opens the possibility of it falling into the wrong hands. Second, the rules involving its use are unclear. Can it only be retrieved to assist a criminal investigation where there is already reasonable suspicion that a crime has been committed? Or can it be searched as part of a fishing expedition, which is later masked by the using parallel construction to disguise that fact and make it appear that evidence was obtained through normal police work?
These points about the loss of privacy are independent of whether the government is trustworthy or not. Obviously if someone is under continual observation, they would hope that knowledge wouldn’t be exploited (i.e. that the observers are trustworthy). But that decision is no longer in their own hands, so they have suffered a loss of free agency and human dignity. Visitors in a zoo probably wish to promote the welfare of the caged animals, but no one would argue that animals on display have privacy. If privacy is a human right, then the government should only be able to violate it by invoking some standard of probable cause.
It’s understood that people would only consent to the collection because they expect a benefit from it (increased safety). And it’s further understood that the collection increases the risk of a loss of privacy (as when we entrust private data to commercial entities). But the probability and severity of the harm is balanced against the anticipated benefit. I think it’s a semantic stretch to equate the risk with an actual loss of privacy. Do you lose privacy when you tell a secret to a trusted friend, or only when the friend betrays your trust and reveals your secret?
I thought after my reply we were talking about the automated analysis of bulk-collected data searching for patterns indicating involvement in terrorism. My point was that if you assume that the government is doing more than that, then it’s not the collection or the analysis that constitutes the loss of privacy, but the wrongful use of the data, the violation of trust. When we trust the government, we assume that the “rules” they establish for themselves will be designed to implement the policies we agreed to – in this case, prevent terrorism. We also assume that the rules will respect our rights and minimize whatever risks (to our privacy in this case) are deemed necessary. Using the data for “parallel construction” is a clear violation of rights, and is therefore a violation of trust. Your two points are not “independent of whether the government is trustworthy or not”.
Ok, but our disagreement has been about what constitutes a violation of privacy. I already said, “However, you’re not improving on the argument that the government shouldn’t be allowed to collect the private data of citizens who are not suspected of criminal activity (which is Greenwald’s position, I believe)”. So maybe you just want to say that bulk collection is an unconstitutional violation of privacy and leave it there.
This is a poor analogy, because you consent to provide that information to the friend – people choose to reveal information about themselves all the time – the key is consent. A more appropriate question would be, do you lose privacy when your trusted friend surreptitiously reads your personal diary, even though they would never reveal your secrets to anyone else? The answer is yes, and if for some reason they do decide to tell everyone else, you lose even more privacy.
“I thought after my reply we were talking about the automated analysis of bulk-collected data searching for patterns indicating involvement in terrorism.”
Or maybe that is what YOU wanted to talk about, it is not what this article is about
“One of the principal threats raised in the report is a scenario “in which the United States’ technological and innovative edge slips” — this has NOTHING to do with “terrorism” — this has to do with the US loosing it’s edge — so of course the NSA would naturally need to steal the technology and then feed it to corporations (unable to rely on govt facilities to exploit this technology, it would HAVE to go to corporations — or to look at it differently, corporations ARE the US govt, so feeding them technology is NOT doing it for profit, it is doing it in the name of security — profit is just a happy byproduct)
@Montecarlo –
I agree entirely. But you wrote, “If privacy is a human right, then the government should only be able to violate it by invoking some standard of probable cause.” If the government is going to do whatever it wants, without our consent, then why are you bothering to speak of what the government “should only be able to” do? First, you’d have to argue that the government shouldn’t (be able to) do whatever it wants, right? (You’d have to argue for “rule of law”.) You wrote, “This has the effect of curtailing freedom.” If the government rules us without our consent, what freedom are you talking about?
I wrote, “It’s understood that people would only consent to the collection because they expect a benefit from it (increased safety)”. So, I thought it was clear that we were both arguing with the assumption that the government is acting with our consent.
“Surreptitiously” implying without my knowledge and consent? Yes. And that’s exactly why Snowden says he made the disclosures: so that we would know what “our government” is doing and therefore have a say about it.
I’m afraid you’ve missed Montecarlo’s point.
@ Montecarlo
07 Sep 2014 at 6:39 am
The underlying assumption of the QICR report is that the world is going to hell in a hand basket … so, naturally, they’ve decidered to gear-up (see ‘classified’ QICR report, if you can find it.) and sell the hand baskets for the low, low price of only $19.95 (of three easy payments.).
From the paper I linked to in another comment:
As the part I bolded indicates, their job is to provide the worst case scenario. Whether it is likely or even impossible is beside the point. The world might be going to hell in a hand basket, so we should head for the gates of hell tout suite and wait for it there.
Point taken.
Still, I would quibble these worst-case prophetic-like projections may be beside the point (in their analysis) or independent (ibid.) of whether the government is trustworthy or not…. but they can not be unrelated.
It comes as no surprise that the US government spies on other governments and foreign-based corporations, especially in less-than-friendly countries. But this is patently unfair since now many of those corporations are in the process of inversion, thereby taking full advantage of being a US corporation but no longer being headquartered in the US and subject to just taxation to reflect how much welfare they receive. This is a huge point, but not bigger than this is: It is completely un-American since its puts domestic corporations in competition with government-favored ones at a severe disadvantage.
My question is this- what US corporations are being directly favored by the fruits of US government espionage and which US corporations, presumably the competitors of those being favored are not being afforded equal access to the spoils?
With that information in hand, this story would have traction since you could then appeal to certain legislators who represent the underdogs in their districts to do something meaningful.
Even the most rogue Americans who would support US government resources being used to shore up US corporations on the international front, but no American should consider himself an American if the government is not impartial and fair to all US corporations in theory and in practice.
That would be a rosy argument except what is and what isn’t a US corporation these days? So many of the investment owners are Russian, Arabic, Chinese, Brits, and death-squad families of Central America.
Is it shocking to anybody here that the US, China, Germany and probably all countries around the world spy on each other? Should we be surprised that an intelligent officer lie to us? All of you who believe that Brazil does not spy on America and America does not spy on Italy live on another planet.
Yet the basis for discouraging use of China’s Huawei equipment was on the shock,horror and surprise that another nation can do that.
That was before the leaks shut their mouths and exposed how they live in a “Glass Tower”
Now that tables have turned,you want to bring acceptance for an otherwise aggressive and unfriendly act.
No.
It should be assumed.
Ok.
And your point would be? That no one should bother to expose the wrongdoing? Methinks not everyone knows what is happening and, in any case, one has to know the particulars in order to effectively fight against it.
I am not sure what the aim is. For all countries to stop spying on each other? (Then we really have to move on another planet with different species). For intelligence officers to stop lying? (that is laughable ) or for only America to stop spying on other countries while the same countries keep spying on America, that would not be only naive, but actually very dangerous.
So, what is the point of the article? If it is to inform us that the US government spies on other governments, then WOW I am so shocked! Intelligence officers lie to the public, WOW I am even more surprised! So, I guess the solution is to find intelligence officers who only say the truth, then we are all doomed.
1. To publish the information to the world, including to the U.S., and thereby possibly generate debate as to whether and how this economic espionage will be permitted. Both by international law or convention, as well as by U.S. law and policy.
2. To stop U.S. government officials from falsely claiming the U.S. does not do what it, in fact, does do. To wit: the U.S. does engage in economics espionage, notwithstanding all the denials.
1) i just cannot imagine how economic espionage could be permitted. That would be a silly and self destructive policy. How can a company keep its competitive edge if it allows others to grab its secrets? The reality is spying is illegal in all countries and no government with common sense would ever allow other governments to freely obtain their secrets.
2) Again, we might have to move to another planet with other species. Intelligence officers cannot always tell the truth because doing so would place the other side in a better position and might even place themselves and the citizens they protect in grave danger. We, the voters must analyze the evidence we have and insure whether it is convincing enough before we take our final decision.
The aim of the article, in my opinion is not to educate the public on espionage. As usual Mr Greenwald attempts to portray the US government, the “Empire”, as the only bad guy in the room as opposed to the Chinese who do not spy, the good Brazilians who have no desire to know what the most powerful country in their hemisphere is doing and the good Germans who would never dare to spy on their allies besides Turkey and the USA by listening to John Kerry’s phone!
The aim of the article, in my opinion is not to educate the public on espionage. As usual Mr Greenwald attempts to portray the US government, the “Empire”, as the only bad guy in the room as opposed to the Chinese who do not spy, the good Brazilians who have no desire to know what the most powerful country in their hemisphere is doing and the good Germans who would never dare to spy on their allies besides Turkey and the USA by listening to John Kerry’s phone!
This is a pretty willful misreading of the actual point of the article, clearly stated in the title and very first paragraph, which is that the US government lies, to a rather large extent and to everyone it engages on the issue, about the purpose of all of the spying it is engaging in. The language Greenwald uses, and the links provided, lead to significant documentation for his assertion.
There are only two reasons I can think of for your apparent inability to parse the points being put forth:
1. You are a rank authoritarian who thinks the US is perfectly correct to engage in this behavior. This observation stems from the strawman bit bolded above, which Greenwald has NEVER actually stated that I am aware of. Or,
2. You are struggling with the arguments put forth as a result of English not being your primary language. An observation I make due to certain sentence construction issues I perceive in your posts that are common among those I know who, while quite fluent in English, are nonetheless working in a language that was not their natal one.
I actually think both issues are in play, but I think you are more than capable of understanding the language Greenwald uses to lay out his arguments, so I’m going to go with 2 not being an excuse for 1.
I would also make the observation that the phrase, As usual gives me the strong impression that you are someone who has been reading, and disagreeing with, Greenwald for some time. I leave it to other commenters to decide if the echoes of bygone commenter(s) that I hear are something worth the time needed to engage – refutation of rank hypocrisy and outright lies (see strawman above) has it’s value and everyone enjoys a good fisking from time to time provided they are on the side of the fisker and not that of the fiskee – but I would propose that such engagement will be rather less than fruitful in this case.
@Pedinska,
Well, thank you very much for reading several of my posts. I am flattered that you took the time to examine my opinion and to review my language skills. I shall not comment on your assumption or rather your arrogance that makes you believe that I struggle to understand the very simple articles that Mr Greenwald publishes. That would place me at your level, which unfortunately does not seem to embrace the notion of intellect. However, I apologize to you and many other readers if they were unable to grasp my sentences. I admit my German and my Spanish are way better than my English. Moreover, I am not able to review my posts multiple times before publishing them due my very demanding schedule. Nevertheless, I urge you and other readers to show some patience and some respect to those around the world who take the time to share their opinion. Mr. Greenwald writes about multiple international topics from China to the Middle East, so no readers should expect that all commentators to be masters of the English language.
Regarding your first point, you are incorrect. I am not an authoritarian. I believe in the truth and freedom, but I do not design my own planet. Your blind loyalty to Mr Greenwald causes you to discount any complications in the topic he writes about. Whether the US government is right or wrong in this specific case is not a simple question in a world where we have to pick between the bad and the worst. All governments spy on other governments and all intelligence agencies lie. You are naive if you believe otherwise. Therefore, you have to be in a different world to say that the US government is wrong by spying on other governments or corporations that have been doing the same actions for centuries.
Your final point is correct. I disagree with most of Mr Greenwald’s views. I do believe I have the right to question his arguments and to challenge his accusations. You also have the right to disagree or to ignore my opinions. I am not aware that he stated that the US is the only bad guy in the room neither. However, he consistently fails to mention the full stories to his readers, for instance, that the Germans who were outrage when they learned the NSA was spying on them were spying on the Turks. By consistently disregarding the other bad guys in the room he carefully presents a world in which the USA is the worst troublemaker. That was my point that you failed to understand.
Then you lack imagination. Whether it’s “a silly and self destructive policy” is debatable; given that all nations do it given the means and opportunity, and the obvious economic benefits if the espionage is successful as motive, I find it hard to say it’s “silly.” Similarly, it’s only self-destructive if you get caught doing it.
Certainly. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen though.
But “the evidence we have” is incomplete, and sometimes false. How can we make a final decision of what is in our best interests on such a basis?
My opinion is that your opinion is based on false premises and is therefore misguided.
Nowhere does Mr. Greenwald exonerate the Chinese, Brazilians, or Germans for their spying, nor has he ever done so. Therefore your “as usual” statement is factually incorrect. And since the whole point of Mr. Greenwald’s journalism is to attempt to hold the US government accountable for its illegal actions at home and abroad, it would be somewhat “silly” to refrain from detailing and criticizing those actions.
He does not disregard the other bad guys in the room. He simply does not address them, because as a citizen of the United States the fact that the United States engages in these activities (especially while denying doing so and condemning other nations for doing so) is particularly outrageous to him. In many ways the USA in fact IS the worst troublemaker; and when it breaks its own laws and violates its own declared principles to take certain actions, it is immaterial whether the USA is the worst or one of many.
You are confused. Whether there is permission for a government to practice economic espionage is determined by the people of the nation, in this case the U.S citizenry. We discuss it amongst the citizenry, and then Congress votes.
Whether government officials should be allowed to lie to the world as to their policies — including lying to the voting public or Congress (and with impunity) — is a matter for We the People to decide.
Well then, he has done so whether that was his aim or not.
I shall not comment on your assumption or rather your arrogance that makes you believe that I struggle to understand the very simple articles that Mr Greenwald publishes. That would place me at your level, which unfortunately does not seem to embrace the notion of intellect.
My observations on your language skills were not meant to belittle, but rather in service of trying to decide if you were someone who we have previously seen in comments who was exceedingly disingenuous in both his argumentative style as well as the supporting evidence supplied for his points. Someone whose style very much paralleled your own. I am married to someone who speaks English as a fifth language, a skill I envy, so it was most definitely NOT a reference to the status of your intellect.
Your blind loyalty to Mr Greenwald causes you to discount any complications in the topic he writes about. Whether the US government is right or wrong in this specific case is not a simple question in a world where we have to pick between the bad and the worst. All governments spy on other governments and all intelligence agencies lie. You are naive if you believe otherwise. Therefore, you have to be in a different world to say that the US government is wrong by spying on other governments or corporations that have been doing the same actions for centuries.
I find it interesting that you liken my assumptions to arrogance, but then cannot refrain from making assumptions of your own. My “loyalty”, as you would have it, is neither blind nor uniform in nature, but rather informed by many years of reading of Mr. Greenwald’s well-documented writing. I spend a good deal of time investigating the links in his pieces as well as reading articles by others doing their best to refute him. Over time I have come to believe that his perspective is largely, though not entirely, one that deserves my support.
I am under no illusions as to what your point is at all. The world that I inhabit and support is one in which my government – the one I and Greenwald as citizens of should be criticizing because it’s the one that is supposed to serve me and my interests – is systematically destroying the Constitution and Bill of Rights as well as the rights of international citizens in many venues across the world. Its policies have wider reach and more powerful effect than any other governmental entity in existence. To legitimize its criminally suspect and morally reprehensible policies and actions by making excuses for a race to the bottom, where the only thing that matters is that we are not quite as crappy as some other governmental entity engaged in the same thing, is the most damaging attitude I can possibly think of to have if one neither desires nor wants to promote authoritarianism and/or American exceptionalism.
Focusing on the actions of the government that you as a citizen are most responsible for is not the same as condoning the actions of any other government in the world. This assertion, that we cannot discuss the US’ actions unless we equally condemn every other entity – a kind of ongoing recitation on gradients of reprehensibility of everyone also doing these things – is a ridiculous distraction designed to water down attention spans that have already become vastly, perhaps fatally, attenuated. It’s time for folks to wake up and take responsibility for the home team’s sins.
There is a myth, propagated the world over, that America is the ‘shining country on a hill’, the one to aspire to, where freedom and justice drip from the trees, etc, etc, ad nauseam. It was that myth that brought my husband to these shores, along with countless other immigrants looking for a better deal than was offered in their own home countries. How ironic then, that it was my husband who first confirmed my own disquieting recognition of the propaganda I saw in that myth and the erosion of the freedoms I had seen and which he thought he’d found by leaving country and family behind.
@Steb
On further reflection, I think one of the difficulties in discussions of issues like this might be an insufficient understanding of some of the principles that civil libertarians – and by that I am not talking about political libertarians, but rather folks of whatever political bent who believe in the principles laid out in the US founding documents, and who believe they are being infringed – should be fought for, as opposed to grudgingly and incrementally relinquished.
I would certainly never presume to understand the principles that, say, the German government is founded on. I disagree with many countries over the issue of free speech, for instance, but I would never presume to instruct Germans that they should disregard their own laws or should refrain from criticizing their government should they perceive it as acting not in their own, or others, interests.
One can always argue the merits of these things, and should, but I think we do ourselves and others grave disservice when we argue for the flaunting of laws, both domestic and international, and rationalize that lawbreaking by asserting that we are incapable of understanding reasons for these actions, or excuse them because those taking them “should be” or simply have set themselves (practically) above the law.
Just some additional thoughts for consideration…….
@liberalrob
I do not lack imagination. I live on planet earth. If economic espionage is legalized, then Samsung may spy on Apple, Boeing may spy on Airbus…? I wonder how Mercedes can win the Formula One championship if Ferrari, McLaren and the others are allowed to obtain its latest technology! Would you feel comfortable if it was legal for North Korea to obtain Lockeed Martin’s secret technology?
If you believe the evidence is incomplete or false, then you vote for the other guy who is willing to give you more evidence. Furthermore, you can also convince others to vote for you if you decide to run for an elected position. As opposed to Cuba or North Korea, we the voters in America get to choose the lawmakers we want.
You pinpoint the problem with Mr Grennwald’s articles. He does not address the other bad guys while US policies are related to these other bad guys. If you believe the US is the worst troublemaker in the room that is a personal opinion. However, it would be fair to state for instance, that although the Irak invasion was wrong in 2003, most of the violence was due to the conflict between Sunnis and Shias, an issue that Mr Greenwald does not address. Or although the US does support a non democratic administration in Saudi Arabia, the other option is to let the more extreme, dangerous and popular tribes be elected, another issue that Mr Greenwald does not address when he bashes US policy in the Middle East. So, yes it is a fact that the US government is involved in spying (quite shocking!), but in support of the truth he should clearly address the fact that most countries do target the US to obtain secret technologies. If we are outrage because our government is spying on other governments that are spying on us, or because intelligence officers lie, then we should move to another planet.
Mr. Greenwald *has addressed that, including by quoting then-Gov Howard Dean on the subject.
Many predicted invading Iraq in ’03 would unleash horrific sectarian strife. It did. We shouldn’t have done it. Our fault. We can’t force peace and democracy on another country; it was hubris to believe otherwise.
Not we, YOU. I plan to stay here and work to improve our republic by holding government officials accountable, including for lying to me. I also oppose my country spying on foreign businesses to gain economic advantage. *Especially when it runs around doing the same in secret whilst admonishing others for the same sin.
Quoting a politician is not addressing such a complicated issue. If you read most of Mr. Greenwald’s articles and interviews, he consistently blame the USA for the violence in Irak. It is not a fair assessment of the situation. Sunnis and Shias have been fighting for generations. How is it our fault that they are unable to stop?
Well, good luck! I wonder what you would do if you discover that multiple countries are spying on American businesses to gain economic advantage.
the other option is to let the more extreme, dangerous and popular tribes be elected, another issue that Mr Greenwald does not address when he bashes US policy in the Middle East.
Let, you say?
Let?
It takes some pretty monumentally ginormous ‘nads to think that any country – I don’t give a damn which one – has the right to assume that it’s preferences are legitimate in any way over the self-determination of the citizens who elect a government.
You have spent a good bit of time above yammering on about how elections are such a great thing, how we are “allowed to choose” our elected officials – completely ignoring the fact that the political system is completely rigged to only permit very narrow choices to make it through the process – then have the gall to say that the US, or any other country, should have a say over other countries’ elections?
Sorry, you’re a flaming authoritarian, just one with a slightly bigger left wing, and I am pretty much done here because you are completely disingenuous and subservient to your leaders, as long as they come in the correct, government-approved flavor. You are anything but about a free citizenry, fully-informed executing its intellect to make real, actual choices.
While you may not actually be Salon’s RussellM or that vile stormtrooper-lover Zdendreck from the bowels of the Graun, you are very nearly a product of the same warped mold from whence they issued. And discussions with you will pretty much follow the same sort of script. Ad nauseam.
Have a nice day.
@ Pedinska
Cognitive dissonance? Mr. Greenwald has the right to take advantage of his freedom of speech to bash the US government whenever he wants. However, I do not have to agree with his opinions. So, as a taxpayer I do take advantage of my freedom of speech to challenge him and the government as well. Whether he criticizes a Democrat or a Republican or an Independent administration is irrelevant to me. What matters to me is whether he presents the whole story to the readers, not just the parts that would automatically make them believe what he wants them to believe.
I guess we have to disagree. I will not even debate torture. It is bad for the society to use violence against an individual the authority fully controls. As simple as that.
If I did not disappoint you, then you have to give me credit for making you laugh. You did not get my point properly. There are many solutions, but your choice will be to pick between the bad ones and the worst ones.
I am so happy that you provide a solution to the Middle East. Stop the flow of money to the corrupt Arab countries. Very interesting. Let’s pick a country: Saudi Arabia. It is corrupt, run by an authoritarian regime and talking about basic freedom might get you killed. Let’s say the US government decides to stop all oil transactions to SA. Let’s say the US government manages to convince the European nations to do the same. Let’s say, thanks to a miracle, the US government even convinces the Chinese to do the same. You are right, “we would see change in a hurry”
1) Massive increase in oil prices as the other corrupt Arab countries support SA . The oil companies we hate so much would not lose money, but the poor countries in Africa and Asia that depend heavily on oil would face a sharp inflation. The result would be an increase in poverty and political unrests in those unstable countries. So, the poor would get poorer.
2) Let’s say, again thanks to a miracle, the “custodian of the holy mosques” (I assume you know the significance of that title) convinces the tribes to have a democratic constitution that requires free and fair election. Who are the most popular leaders in SA? Who are more likely to be elected? Most of the tribes in SA do not believe in democracy, in freedom of speech, religion or assembly. They are highly religious individuals who believe non Muslims are infidels, Shia Muslims are not real Muslims and they have a duty to convert the world and to establish Sharia Law by any means necessary.
You do have a noble aim by demanding that your government stops doing business with corrupt and authoritarian regimes. However, did you evaluate the solution you proposed? Would you be able to sleep at night knowing more people, more children are dying of hunger because oil prices have skyrocketed? And what would be your response when the elected governments in these countries ask the non Muslims to leave? Ask all women to cover themselves….? What would be your response when these elected governments (because the other countries might follow SA) decide to support violent extremists around the world to get rid of the infidels?
Mr Greenwald knows these scenarios. He chooses not to address them because his aim is to bash the US government without presenting the whole story.
You mentioned the fear mongering over ISIS. I am so sorry to ask that question. Do you really know what is going on in the Middle East? There is a myth that if the West ” leaves them alone” then, the west would be out of trouble. Do not take my words, do not take CNN or BBC words for it. Go to the Middle East yourself, visit the mosques, talk to different tribe leaders and you will understand that many do really want to kill the infidels wherever they are because this is how they interpret their scriptures. Or you can go to the library and review what former caliphs did to the Middle East and to Europe.
Too many words.
@ Pedinska
I admit I am disappointed. I did not believe you would use the typical Greenwald’s line, which basically suggests that everybody who disagrees with him is indoctrinated by the government. I also thought that you would stop attacking my personal traits that you do not know. Yes, I did write “let”. I do not believe that makes me an authoritarian because I have history on my side. Please if you have time listen to this speech from Adolf Hiltler, then the candidate who made it clear in Waldenburg in 1932 that he does not believe in democracy.
http://www.ushmm.org/learn/timeline-of-events/before-1933/hitler-campaign-speech
You probably already know what he said about the “Jewish question” as a candidate. My question is did France, UK or even the USA make a mistake by LETTING this monster get elected?
Or you can get closer in history: Algeria 1991. If you were an Algerian woman and a strong believer in democracy, How comfortable would you be if a party run by a leader (Ali Belhadj) who clearly states that women should stay home and that democracy is a threat to Sharia is about to take power through free and fair election?
If you were the French president how comfortable would you be to have a country located a few hours from France that is sitting on a huge oil reserve is about to be run by a government whose leaders’ goal is the “restoration of the Caliphate” by any means necessary, I add? Would you “let” those leaders get elected?
Did you review those historical FACTS before you jumped on me?
I admire the attention you gave to my views by challenging them. It is unfortunate that you have to close the door. However, you will not see tears in my eyes.
Have a nice day,
Thanks
No.
But the German electorate sure did.
That said, the allies erred at the conclusion of WWI, by imposing draconian war debt on Germany which set the nation up for a demagogue like Adolph Hitler.
@ Mona
No, I am not confused at all. As opposed to China or Saudi Arabia, the people of America pick their lawmakers. However, how efficient would it be to legalize economic espionage? If we do legalize this practice, then we open the door for others to officially do the same. How Ford can be successful if Mercedes is allowed to obtain its secret technologies? Nevertheless, it would also be foolish for the US government not to spy on others that consistently spy on America.
I am not challenging your right to decide whether or not an intelligence officer ( not an elected official) should lie. You choose your lawmaker through the ballot. My point is that the nature of an intelligence officer’s duties does prevent him or her from telling you the truth sometimes. You are assuming that all voters are peaceful individuals who would not hurt other citizens. If you require all intel officers to tell the the truth, then they would all resign to survive. How secure would you feel working in a Pakistani high tech company if the US government officially states that it does spy on high tech companies in Pakistan? Remember, Pakistan does not have a transparent judicial system. You could easily be jailed even if you have no idea what the US officials are referring to.
The US government spies on other countries and prosecute individuals who spy on the US. That’s it? I guess we are all informed now.
As a citizen in the democratic republic of the United States, I insist: 1. that my government tell me the truth when asked if it does engages in economic espionage, and 2. that We the People have a right to know that, and to debate whether we wish our laws to permit this under all, certain, or no circumstances.
Very rarely, and even then, s/he can inform the Senate Intelligence Committee of the truth. A question at the very general level as to whether the U.S. does or does not engage in economic espionage, however, is a non-particularized question that I, as a citizen, insist must be answered truthfully to the electorate.
@Pedinska
My assumption that you blindly support Mr. Greenwald might not reflect the reality, but it was fair because you simply replied to reject my opinion without a serious challenge of its content. Your response targeted mostly my personal traits, which you do not know. Had you stated your reasoning in this present format, then I would have offered a more tactful answer although I am not a diplomat.
I strongly believe that the citizens should always criticize and challenge the government with the ultimate goal of making it better for them. However, it is also indispensable to be fair, and realistic in our critics in order to obtain efficient solutions to our problems. For instance, I do not believe that we should condone torture because North Korea or any other countries routinely torture their prisoners. We should condemn torture and severely punish whoever uses it because government officials work for us and it is not the other way around. Therefore, we should not accept a practice that is detrimental to the citizens.
Unfortunately, most of the issues that we face as citizens are not as simple as the harmful effects of torture on the society. Would it be helpful to the citizens if the government allows foreign governments to freely obtain the country’s secret technologies? Common sense, logic and history tell us no because these foreign governments would certainly use our secrets against us. Would it be safe to disregard other countries’ technology? As a citizen I believe my government should monitor the technology of another country whose government consistently states “death to America”.
If espionage is a sin, are we supposed to stop spying on other countries that are consistently targeting our secrets? That would be completely inefficient and unrealistic. Again, I am sorry to disappoint you but in this world we have to pick between the bad and the worst. Between the Vatican that protects child molesters and Saudi Arabia that kills those who dare to challenge the Prophet. Both policies are bad and need to be changed, but It would be easier in the Vatican where we can challenge the Pope than in Saudi Arabia where the King would not accept any challenges. Nobody believes the USA is the perfect place on earth. However, a young teenager from gang infested El Salvador has a better chance of survival in the Bronx where he will probably be targeted by the NYPD. In terms of international policy, I doubt the Kurds or the Yazidis would join the Iranians in screaming Death to America.
I strongly believe that the citizens should always criticize and challenge the government with the ultimate goal of making it better for them.
Greenwald has created a second career – his first was as a civil litigation specialist for a prominent NY law firm – out of criticizing/challenging the government and its supporting institutions, primarily the mainstream media, so I find it puzzling that you say the above after having already stating that you largely disagree with him as a whole. Why does this not cause you cognitive dissonance? I don’t know how long you have been reading him, but he has been consistent in this criticism across two administrations now. Perhaps it is the fact that he is critical of a Democratic administration that causes your dyspepsia? I would be interested in your response…
Unfortunately, most of the issues that we face as citizens are not as simple as the harmful effects of torture on the society.
I don’t find the effects of torture on society to be simple at all. In fact, I find them to be incredibly insidious and, as the current fear mongering over ISIS shows, deeply ingrained and nurtured by the government and media. Not simple at all. The fact that you label them as such really makes me question all of your evaluations of such things.
I am sorry to disappoint you but in this world we have to pick between the bad and the worst.
The idea that someone on the internet could possibly disappoint me caused me to laugh loud enough for my cat to come see what was going on. And no, I simply don’t accept your version of the world. These sorts of false dichotomies, wherein we are told – quite authoritatively I might add – that this choice is the only one we have and we must simply fall in line and obey, is why I called you an authoritarian in the first place. You offer only those options you deem acceptable and conveniently ignore a whole range of other solutions. As you noted above, most of the issues that we face as citizens are not as simple as that. That you think torture is simple, then turn around and offer nothing but false dichotomies wrt US govt lying to its citizens, then make another quarter turn to pose, quite literally, ignorant questions/scenarios such as these…
Would it be helpful to the citizens if the government allows foreign governments to freely obtain the country’s secret technologies?
and
…are we supposed to stop spying on other countries that are consistently targeting our secrets?
…is the reason why you have gotten such a sustained response here. Most folks around here have sufficient intellect to sustain more than two options for any given problem and are willing to at least entertain, examine and critique most any solution offered as a serious alternative. You are the one drawing lines in the sand and telling us that, sadly, we really must get in line behind you and the government.
Btw, no one here has labelled espionage a sin, you just made that up completely. Speaking of sins, I am quite capable of condemning both the Pope and the King of Saudi Arabia. And, if this govt were actually willing to try to make changes in SA, it would really be as simple as shutting off the flow of money to them and all the rest of the corrupt Arab countries we support. We would see change in a hurry.
It was in this case. Dean made a very compelling argument that simply removing Saddam would leave a vacuum in a nation where sectarian rivalries had summered for centuries, with no solution as to what to do about that.
Voices such as Dean’s were dismissed, their patriotism even questioned.
They were right. The Iraq war made Iraq worse off by many more magnitudes than before we got there. It’s our fault.
Apparently you have already moved to another planet.
On planet Earth, here. But pleased to meet you Stranger, from wherever it is you hail.
Weasel words from above story, my emphasis:
He did not say they don’t steal such information for other reasons. Such as to keep the U.S. on top of current and emerging technology markets. (With the bottom lines of U.S. companies being merely an ancillary benefit.)
Technological superiority is very important and directly linked to national security. Right now we have reached a stalemate of sorts, and everyone is waiting for the next breakthrough technology. We do not know where in the world the next Albert Einstein will be born, but we definitely want that he migrates and works in our research labs. Our biggest, and probably the only, adversary is China. If they have found that technology then we need to know and develop it immediately. Germany lost WWII because we were able to steal their technology and their scientists; otherwise, imagine the world with that crazy fellow at the head. Therefore, the spying into technical research has more to do with security than financial profits, although I admit that they are also connected.
Even if the intent of spying is not to gain competitive advantage for corporations for monetary reasons, the problem is that everything is connected and like the banks, too big too fail. Practically anything — actions on behalf or against oil fields, widgets, tech companies, etc.can be excused or justified in the name of “national security interests”. And then of course, the next step is the “Bush Doctrine” which allows for preemptive actions in the name of national security. Thus we continue to run roughshod over the rest of the world.
Chinese researchers are going back to China with all the secrets. Therefore, US nationals and agents must work in Chinese research labs and firms and bring back their secrets as well.
I am really worried of Chinese DIng-dong missiles that can target our aircraft carriers and destroy them. The only option is to nuke them first.
You’re learning!
If that’s true then the Republicans are the worst enemies of our national security, because of their constant defunding of government research in favor of private sector initiatives which are uniformly short-sighted and bottom-line driven.
Actually no, it was because their leaders were insane sociopaths who thought they knew all there was to know about modern warfare and believed their own hype about being homo superior. Driving away some of their best scientists because they were Jews certainly didn’t help though.
Mr. Clapper is a pathological liar. If he has kids, imagine is bedside stories.
FYI – Back in 1998/99 while doing research for a master’s degree presentation our group come across information saying that since the cold war was now over and the USSR was not the threat it used to be the CIA was intending to use it’s personnel, many now with nothing to do, to begin spying for the benefit of US corporations so that the USA would know what others were doing and also, so they would benefit from what we find, to the advantage of the US corporations. The information was in some very common news sources. It was “almost” headline news info.It also was, at the time, common knowledge that the CIA had a new international mission. And that, that info was old news in 1999. So imagine what they have been doing in that 15 year plus time frame to help US corporations.
Worst of all, the Israeli’s who built the NSA spy grid have total access to all information collected. Israel has sold top secret military technology to the Chinese and continues to sell technology to anybody who has money to purchase whatever they want.
As all eight major US intelligence agencies agreed, released in a secret report to the Senate Intelligence Committee, Israel poses a bigger threat to US national security than all other nations combined. This is because the jews using their Federal Reserve fraud create hundreds of trillions out of thin air which they have used to bribe and blackmail congress and take total control all major media in the western world. The jew media has brainwashed most Americans into believing we must all die to protect Israel who is not our friend but actually our most dangerous enemy.
It is time to remove all Israeli citizens from our government and arrest all who have sold us out to the Rothschild Banking Mafia (owners of the Federal Reserve, Israel, Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, CITI, etc) Give them all a speedy Nuremberg style trial and a mass public hanging to rid our nation of these treasonous cockroaches forever. We must either exterminate them or they will exterminate us. Since they make up less than 0.2% of the world population, I believe it would be a rather easy task to rid our world of these vermin once and for all.
BTW, Glenn, would any of these Agency types have holdings in companies that might be interested in this kind of insider information? Say, knowledge of Petrobras bids that might be useful, say, to Exxon/Mobil and their shareholders of record? Common and preferred shares do have ownership, recorded somewhere under SEC rules or the Securities Act, that’s the whole point.
Wouldn’t that be a good inquiry? You used to practice in Manhattan.
It shall be unlawful for any person, directly or indirectly, by the use of any means or instrumentality of interstate commerce, or of the mails or of any facility of any national securities exchange,
(a) To employ any device, scheme, or artifice to defraud,
(b) To make any untrue statement of a material fact or to omit to state a material fact necessary in order to make the statements made, in the light of the circumstances under which they were made, not misleading, or
(c) To engage in any act, practice, or course of business which operates or would operate as a fraud or deceit upon any person,
in connection with the purchase or sale of any security.”
— SEC Rule 10b-5
Over the years, 40 or so, I have seen articles, reports and disclosures that the CIA, NSA and other three letter agencies have many front companies that they use world wide to gain access and to distribute their info to the public. This is not a revelation in itself, but I wonder how many are now illegal and down right criminal in their activities. To call them “Rogue Organizations” is an understatement.
WE know many Hollywood movies, TV shows and publications are funded by these agencies. To get out their mind control propaganda out to the unsuspecting and dumbed down American public. We also know many are involved in the drug trade, human sex trafficking, and other worldly projects. What, -we don’t know that they are doing- is what concerns me and should concern everyone on our precious planet.
And also – that this common knowledge info is never discussed or investigated by our so called government reps, so-called watch-dogs groups or the corporate media puppets. No shocker there either.
Think fascism (or National Socialism) and it fits together so nicely. The Federal Government is the DC branch of most large corps. The large corps depend on the bought politicos to keep the money and power coming. The politicos depend on the corps for the re-election money. The great experiment was buried under Reagan in the ’80’s but it had been dead since the CIA and others started managing the system in the ’60’s.
A minor point regarding Hollywood movies. I will never, ever, pay to watch a movie again at the cinema. Fuck Hollywood! I encourage you all, my comrades, to do the same. In the past year, even 30 year old movies have been removed from the internet, or require payment to watch. An example, Enter the Dragon, made in 1974, if I want to watch it I must pay £2.49. Bruce Lee fucking died years ago, but ‘somebody’, still will not allow people to share this movie freely. The greed is just despicable.
Another example of long-existing practices of espionage/sabotage for profit by the military-industrial corporate complex. Will law enforcement agencies ever prosecute the NSA/CIA/DoS managers who conspired with US based international oil companies (IOCs), like ConocoPhillips (www.scribd.com/UnCoverUp), in willful violations of US criminal statutes like the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act (FCPA)?
This has not been going on for years, as one commentator noted; it’s been going on for centuries. Economic advantage is what countries jockey for among one another. Most of the diplomatic buildup to WWI for many years was the various mental maps and where countries were fearful of losing strategic advantages, while accepting that others do in fact live on the planet – by which was meant empires, not people. Of course countries represent private wealth. This is why the US changed from a confederation of states to a federal system after 13 years of the former. In brief, we were squabbling and the Brits were laughing. The problem today is that the balance of values has gone haywire; globalization; previously unimaginable technology; and the lies and deceits necessary to placate a people who believe they live in a democracy.
The whole idea of nations jockeying and spying is to accumulate and/or protect their wealth. No one foresaw capitalism run amok and those few who did were ignored because it’s hard to rebuild entire concepts and infrastructures. Mostly, governments are reactionary. Not so different from all of us here, reading and commenting. What’s haywire is things like Burger King engaging in mergers that permit a betrayal of their country. So the problem is not just government lying and hypocrisy, but also that they’ve lost sight of national interest, the economic welfare of the few having been conflated with that interest for so long. It’s all gone beyond their scope to grasp.
Apropos of absolutely nothing and although this may be old news, I suggest watching this “report” on net neutrality, if you haven’t already seen it. This is not entirely unrelated – almost, but not entirely, heh: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpbOEoRrHyU
This article is very disappointing to me. The headline and first few paragraphs strongly imply that the Greenwald has a document showing NSA is spying for US corporations. But, once I read past the introduction, I find that the leaked report referenced is simply the result of planning for hypothetical future scenarios. The report contains absolutely no evidence of the implication that NSA is performing corporate espionage. In my mind, it is exactly same as the war plans the Pentagon produces for invasions of Canada or the UK. It is the responsibility of the NSA (and the Pentagon) to anticipate and plan for all possible future threats. Would you have them stop doing that Greenwald? Not to mention the idea that just because something could happen means it will happen is a gross logical fallacy.
I’ve been on the fence about the Snowden leaks. On the one hand, I’m grateful for the peek behind the curtain provided by Snowden and Greenwald. On the other, I’m concerned about how the information Snowden leaked is being twisted and spun by Greenwald to support his political viewpoint. I would be much more supportive of Snowden’s decision if he would have supplied the leaked docs to someone a little more impartial and cool-headed. Basically, I’m concerned that the information I get about the Snowden leaks is not accurate because the gatekeeper is an ideologue. Greenwald’s reporting is dripping with venom, especially since he started writing for the intercept. How can I trust you, Greenwald, when you have such strongly-held viewpoints and beliefs? How do I know you are not being influenced by confirmation bias as decide what to report?
You can’t. I suppose you could appeal to the US government to release some secret documents which are more flattering, to counter those released by Snowden. Unfortunately, they presumably don’t care what you think and will ignore you. Therefore the best course of action is to simply discount anything published by The Intercept and attempt to strengthen your faith in the benevolence of government. Your presence on these threads indicates you may be harboring some doubts – work to eliminate them.
Are you a salaried internet surveillance role player pretending to be a reasonable citizen, mimicking that fake-thoughtful, propaganda addled, centrist perspective? I can appreciate the sense of humor, given the US’ center has lurched so far right it is categorically extremist — as demonstrated by the number of mindlessly destroyed nations, millions of dead bodies, thousands of torture victims, corporate espionage, proven by NSA docs to exist on a greater scale than Russia and China’s combined, and one of my old favorites: COINTELPRO stalking and slow-kill tactics. (Cool headed, centrist cowards love the Stasi; it keeps them safe from everything they are ordered to hate and fear.)
The term fence sitter became a euphemism for boneless fuck in the middle a long time ago, but you’re not really on the fence, are you? I can tell you support US totalitarianism and that you are annoyed that any individual could still get away with expressing hostility towards that quite evil Stasi State. Venom begets venom, my totalitarian centrist friend. Get used to the fact that some people won’t tolerate your sort.
If anti-totalitarian viewpoints concern you, go read Pravda — I mean, NYT — where more docile, cooler stenography will guide further development of your own pre-fab, extremist bias.
I never had any doubt whatsoever that the 24/7/365 all-encompassing surveillance of humanity, was all about being eternally aware of all that goes on, in the ranks of the masses, and to be able to covertly monitor all businesses for innovation and inventions, which would be stolen, and marketed to major American corporations.
The .01%ters are well organized, able to manipulate anything and everything at will.
I monitor several American and foreign media sources, three in particular, The Intercept, The New York Times, and The Guardian, and compare daily the reporting, looking for follow up to revelations in The Intercept, and examining the nature of the “perception management”, that all except The Intercept, are engaged in.
Rarely will The Times publish reports such as this latest, and curiously The Guardian is very slow to jump in, no doubt because of pressure from the GCHQ.
In any event, I believe the slow and steady pace of The Intercept will triumph, and mainstream media will have no choice but to join in informing the people, lest they be recognized for what they are, which is the mouthpieces of the ruling elite.
Change is on the horizon, and nothing will stop it, short of the imposition of totalitarian measures sooner than planned.
MabelMinkoff, please stop typing with Cheetos on yur keyboard.
Ms. Minkoff’s typography and orthography is similar to that of Chaucer, so be not perturbed. She will enlighten us perforce.
thenk yew corman nobbeez hunnee.
knot effurwun no how too unnerstan teh Minkoff lexicum don u no.
iz gud too see effurwun heer at Gleenz gnu saloon.
“Friendship is the hardest thing in the world to explain. It’s not something you learn in school. But if you haven’t learned the meaning of friendship, you really haven’t learned anything”–Muhammad Ali
taht Muhammered Owli wuz a furry wize persum don u no.
Isn’t this what one would expect from the type of fascist government now running the US? Large corporations have a DC branch called the Federal Government that spies for them, and provides other services such as giving them the money, power, and influence needed to help control the masses, both at home and abroad, while making the very few, chosen ones very rich. In return the corporate leaders “kick-back” the money needed to keep their government whores fed, clothed, housed, and elected. National Socialism at its best. I’d be truly surprised if this report concluded anything different.
Once again the goons in the U.S. Govt have proven their mantra (with regards to industrial espionage by China): “Do as we say, NOT as we do!”
Didn’t one of the NSA’s cabin boys (Keith Alexander) just recently just tell the reps of some of the largest U.S. corporations to provide the NSA with access to their networks & databases to prevent foreign attack in the event of a cyber war? Oh YES, corporate America, hand over your chicken coops to the big bad wolf. Trust me!!! -Keith Alexander
“… the technological capacity of foreign multinational corporations could outstrip that of U.S. corporations.”
Given the shoddy state of the US educational system, that statement will come true and probably has already happened. The solution (other than diverting funds from endless war to back to education) is to cheat. You can always tell a cheater because they become morally outraged when others do it.
This has been going on for years. If you begin with the premise that the US government, in it’s present form, only exists to execute the will of the “1%”, this makes perfect sense. The FBI has been surveilling, disrupting, infiltrating and imprisoning union organizers and labor unions as far back as the 20s during the “Red Scare”. Even before that, the Colorado National Guard was called out to smash strikes and used lethal force against strikers.
The Dalek’s have something to say regarding Oliver Willis:
http://republicandalek.tumblr.com/post/96768625878/profiles-in-liberal-courage-oliver-willis-worshiper
Willis is a lesson in how not to humiliate oneself by continuing all day long to defend idiocy, which may have begun as ignorance but clearly evolved in to dishonesty, about the documents. But topping that by far, Willis is living in the Salem Witch Trials era by jumping on board the slut shaming wagon of a fifteen year old girl.
Conclusion: there is no hope that this vile person will learn from his mistakes or that he will admit to being so State Embedded that he’d defend burning little girls and young women at the stake if asked to do so. After all, he not only continues make the same mistakes, but he continues to publicize his mistakes as if the world had not noticed that he’s dishonest and revolting.
Yup. Mr. Willis’ mile wide stubborn streak is lined up right along his spine next to his mile wide authoritarian streak. The only wonder left is why anyone anywhere would continue to support him in an organization that produces written work that is designed to maintain any sort of modicum of respectability.
Why is that so shocking? Who owns and bosses congress and the executive branches of government anyway?
Another great article from Glenn. Everyone else is joining in. Google tracking has been banished from the looks of things. Just a little love for the comment section, and we might just have a party.
I wonder if the “IC” did a scenario about what ten more years of hamster wheel quality internet will do to the US economy? How do you spy your way out of internet service that is laughed at by countries that have never even won a gold metal?
It was definitely a good trade to let the telcos do whatever the hell they wanted in exchange for all of our data. A well thought out plan indeed. If you think about it, this throttling of the internet serves state and telco alike–our total bandwidth is constrained by the government’s ability to spy on it.
We must develop The Sentient Enterprise, if only to increase our data caps.
From the IC report…
….
“Advance corporate knowledge” is just an awesome turn of phrase.
“There’s gambling in this casino, I’m shocked”.
Back in the 80s a friend of mine was doing some contact for a Japanese firm when a Soviet operative approached him snd asked him if he would consider spying for the
Soviet Union. Shocked, my friend contracted the US Embassy to report it.
In response a CIA operative invited him out for a drink.
After ordering drinks and my friend reporting the incident, the CIA guy seemed non plussed by my friend’s revelation. Instead he asked my friend if he would consider spying on his employer for the CIA.
When my friend refused the operative bolted, sticking my friend with the tab.
The article doesn’t say that the US spied to help US corporations. It says that there was a report considering this as a future possibility (that seemingly was not enacted). So if we (the US) didn’t do it, then we are not hypocrites for criticizing China for doing it. I feel bad for US companies that have their trade secrets hacked by the Chinese who put no money into R&D and then flood the market with a cheaper version of the product (having stolen the secret formula).
Their may be instances where this is even appropriate. While it is not OK in my eyes to steal the recipe for a commercial gadget or software (with no military use), maybe it is appropriate to steal the plans for something military related that is produced by a foreign private company? Probably yes. The Chinese have been doing both to us.
I suggest that you re-read or read for the first time the following paragraph from the post. Be sure to scroll back to the original paragraph and click the links within it. Your conclusion is based on avoiding all evidence to the contrary.
Yes, although Glenn’s point was (a) that they were targeting concerns like Petrobras, in Brazil, a concern that has little or no direct connection to military uses and (b) that NSA’s material does suggest targeting info that’s possibly useful to US industry. Oh, and quite coincidentally, I’m seeing little in all of this to suggest that all this US gov’t spy tech is being used for industrial counter-espionage. It’d be nice if our firms could rely on something more than Symantec or Macafee to protect them — it’s as if, during the Cold War, that US businesses had to have their own Nike batteries.
J. Edgar wept.
To whom It May Concern > Glenn.
Gads, geek stuff is so tedious.
The link to this report only gives me the title, ‘Quadrennial Intelligence Review Final Report 2009′, and the words “feature in”? Why is that? *Of course, it could well be the fault of my poor old put upon geek machine; i’m running foxfire w/ no scripts … like my cousin Mabel do.
I was hoping to compare and contrast to the unclassified report (pdf h/t Col. O Willis), the ‘official future’ 2025 projections by DNIC … which is fucking scary enough! (if you look up doomsday sourpuss IC beancounting analysts in the dictionary, it should have a picture of Clapper.)
That was how it was yesterday morning, but they fixed it after a couple of hours or so. I just clicked it to recheck, and it is still posting in full. So I don’t know what’s happening on your end. It should be working for you.
Be interesting to see what becomes of Owillis decision to continue lying all day long, after having scads of people have inform him that they are on to his lying. The guy has done that before but this has gone into Outer-iimits territory.
hi bahmihummingbug hunnee!
mi faux iz firin an Myrna hav no had skript in lon tiem now. knot sins las tiem adnomo cum sniffin rown hur gurdle.
taht Oliffur Willess wuz furry disonnest persum inn taht twatter ex chanj.
i see yew at teh poorpul kow soon sweathart! we get sum soop beenz an korn porn don u no.
Mabel!
Script or no script (26 script and 1 object) it ain’t working for me mabelle. *Dang nation … when I could be out hunting possum for our supper tonight!
*adnoto went to look up Myrna’s script, but the dog was using it … I still have Myrtle’s girdle.
**you won’t believe it … but the Purple Cow, an iconic fixture all my life, is now a Mexican restaurant!!! And the world turns ~
wel eff teh poorpul kow iz now messicum roosterant at lees tehy stil haev teh beenz!
jus wiht hollowpeener peepurz don u no.
i luv me sum booritoez gnawchoez an tackytoez hunnee.
Maybelle darlin’
I was so excited to see you agin, looks like I posted the same thing twice. … in spite of TI’s wild&wolly comment navigation terrain.
Yup. How do you say ‘purple cow’ in spanish? In any case, a lot of the locals who initially thought the folks running a fine Mexican cuisine ‘around here’ must be lost or disoriented were mistaken. They appear to be doing a brisk business. *Mostly with the upper crust well-to-do locals … who can afford to eat so high on the hog.
*No RSVP required
ps. I didn’t know there was a Chaucer in the woodpile? Evidently, Bro. ‘slow he down’ Coram seems to think so. I always thought you were blood kin to ‘Yellerhammer’ Hobbs clan and, hence, kin to me!?
come, call or write.
xo bah.
bahmihummerbung ther allays a chaser inna woodpiel sweathart.
corman nobbeez iz furry obbservunt persum butt u an me ar onny kissum kuzzinz at teh mos.
Vaca morada, I believe, although I’m not sure if it has a colloquial meaning (e.g., fmr. President Mubarak was known as “Laughing Cow” because of a resemblance to a brand of cheese logo).
What be this.. ‘teh poorpul kow’ has morphed into a bell-beefing enchirito establishment?!?!
sigh..
Mabel!
Script or no script (26 script and 1 object) it ain’t working for me mabelle. *Dang nation … when I could be out hunting possum for our supper tonight!
*adnoto went to look up Myrna’s script, but the dog was using it … I still have Myrtle’s girdle.
**you won’t believe it … but the Purple Cow, an iconic fixture all my life, is now a Mexican restaurant!!! And the world turns ~
xo,
bah.
There is a crucial difference between the NSA’s industrial espionage and that of other countries. The United States does it to level the playing field, while other countries do it to seek unfair advantage. Unfair advantage is antithetical to free trade – less efficient and innovative firms are rewarded, thus distorting the markets and restraining economic growth. A level playing field on the other hand, ensures that American firms have unimpeded access to international markets. This does not ensure they will dominate those markets – they must demonstrate initiative and perseverance to do so – but it makes such dominance possible. This natural state of affairs benefits everyone, including consumers in other countries, who benefit from the abundance and value of American products and services.
Really your defending a free market for American Corporations? How do they create fair markets when they enjoy so many political, extra legal and financial advantages in our own economy? I just love corporatist apologists it is like everything is one big joke to them.
Glenn you have consistently stood on principal and your work is of great value. THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH!
Spoken like a pablum swallowing American Exceptionalist.
Vice almost sounds like a new incarnation of our friend Benito. Has he/she posted before?
afelna hunnee tihs persum iz a meer shaddow uv owr Bennytoe.
Lice uv Resum wud knot recumnize dominuns ef a bawl gag bit hur on hur buttchek don u no.
His/her statement almost sounds like heartfelt satire but you’re right, it’s probably just heartfelt. Benito is impossible to surpass!
” they must demonstrate initiative and perseverance to do so” Would that be the same kind of “initiative and perseverance” demonstrated by the “too big to fail banks” bailed out to the tune of several trillion dollars by US taxpayers? Unfair advantage is precisely what US corporations seek to maximise profits. It’s the American way.
In other words, when America engages in industrial espionage, it does so to ensure a level playing field. When other countries spy, it’s to seek an unfair advantage.
Translation:
America spying = Good!
Everyone else = Bad!
Please provide examples of less efficient and innovative firms that are rewarded by industrial espionage, and responsible for distorting the markets and restraining economic growth.
“Level” the playing field? Perhaps, but if foreign firms get the idea that their intellectual properties are at risk — whether from having their laptops rifled on arrival at our airports, or from malware in products they buy from us, or from intrusions made more possible by mergers, they might not be willing to engage in business or trade as much. At some point it makes the US less able to access foreign markets, if they decide to set up their own internets and social media and manufacturing rather than import from the US (think: if we won’t buy bad pork from China, why should others buy malware-laden routers from us?).
Imight add, all this spook surveillance was, originally, to protect the US, post-9/11, from terrorist attack. I fail to see how spying on Petrobras or the IMF advances that.
It doesn’t. After 9/11 the “intelligence community” got so much funding that the world became it’s oyster. They have vast amounts of money=toys and resources with which to exploit every vulnerability to the max and economic spying is just another tool in their box. That 2009 secret report from Clapper linked in the article is a must read. Talk about delusions of grandeur. They plan on putting sensors into and I quote “weaponry to foodstuffs”. Machiavelli would be shocked by the machinations of the IC’s imaginations and aspirations. I want no part of these evil plans being done in our name.
Americans need frequent reminders about the Wolfowitz Doctrine:
“Our first objective is to prevent the re-emergence of a new rival, either on the territory of the former Soviet Union or elsewhere, that poses a threat on the order of that posed formerly by the Soviet Union. This is a dominant consideration underlying the new regional defense strategy and requires that we endeavor to prevent any hostile power from dominating a region whose resources would, under consolidated control, be sufficient to generate global power.”
the ruling class’ goal of world domination:
http://harpers.org/archive/2002/10/dick-cheneys-song-of-america/
who these people are and how they’re organized:
http://www.hamptoninstitution.org/engineeringempire.html#.VArNoGNgjyU
Zbigniew Brzezinski’s imperialist vision
http://andrewgavinmarshall.com/tag/zbigniew-brzezinski/
this excerpt from Kennan’s PPS23 (from 1948) and its relevance to imperialist objectives:
“We have about 50 per cent of the world’s wealth, but only 6.3 per cent of its population. … Our real task in the coming period is to maintain this position of disparity. … To do so we will have to dispense with all sentimentality and day-dreaming. … We need not deceive ourselves that we can afford the luxury of altruism. … We should cease to talk about vague, unreal objectives such as human rights, the raising of living standards, and democratization. The day is not far off when we will have to deal in straight power concepts.”
Michael Parenti’s Against Empire
http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/4625512/697919986/name/michael_parenti_against_empire.pdf
excerpt:
“Why has a professedly peace-loving, democratic nation [the U.S.] found it necessary to use so much violence and repression against so many peoples in so many places? An important goal of U.S. policy is to make the world safe for the Fortune 500 and its global system of capital accumulation. Governments that strive for any kind of economic independence or any sort of populist redistributive politics, who have sought to take some of their economic surplus and apply it to not-for-profit services that benefit the people–such governments are the ones most likely to feel the wrath of U.S. intervention or invasion.”
Chomsky’s What Uncle Sam Really Wants
http://www.cyberspacei.com/jesusi/authors/chomsky/sam/sam.htm
Obama’s ‘stupid stuff’ legacy
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/CEN-01-020914.html
@ Vivek Jain:
This comment is a masterpiece.
Each carefully chosen link should be read, in detail, and pondered by any person fortunate enough to happen upon it.
Thank you.
The report was an analysis and recommendation of what the NSA could do in the future. The rabble have taken this to be proof that US spy’s for commercial reasons….conspiracy theorists are nutters
For certain there is one thing the US govmt does do. Lie, lie, lie, and then, lie again. Tommy Rimes
DIE Gier des Machbaren sorgt für weltweite Einschränkungen im Internet! Das ist ein Kampf, den NUR die Amerikaner aufnehmen können, den Kampf gegen die Gier und Paranoia im eigenen Land!
Not to forget the Soviet-era rubric that “nothing is so certain as that which has been officially denied.”
Another case of Western security services caught red handed lying to the the public. Why would anyone trust these agencies anymore when they have been proven to be liars over and over again. Until Clapper has been arrested there can be no progress on improving the accountability of security services.
American Exceptionalism?
Yes. By spying on everything and every one!
American Exceptionalism?
Yes. By spying on every ‘thing’ and every ‘one’ !
No more lies, excuses rationalizations,or justifications, the public needs to hold these officials to account to the fullest extent of the law under Title 18 sec. 241 & 242 So any future traitors will know there will be consequences to such behavior. I hope the United Kingdom has equivalent laws, but if not maybe it’s time to get some. Better late than never.
Don’t blame Snowden or the Press for the actions of NSA & GCHQ & our Governments, they are the ONLY ones responsible for the crimes they have committed ! ! ! See USC Title 18 Sec. 241 & 242 (Google it). So why no arrest warrants for high crimes, but only for misdemeanors ? ? ?
High crimes = NSA + GCHQ + PUBLIC OFFICALS OF THE UK & US ! ! !
Misdemeanors = Snowden, Manning, Assange, lAVABIT
REMEMBER: POLITICIANS, BUREAUCRATS AND DIAPERS SHOULD BE CHANGED OFTEN AND FOR THE SAME REASON.
He that is of the opinion money will do everything may well be suspected of doing everything for money.
Benjamin Franklin
He that is good for making excuses is seldom good for anything else.
Benjamin Franklin
Experience hath shown, that even under the best forms of government those
entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.
Thomas Jefferson
In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself.
James Madison
The liberties of a people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them.
Patrick Henry
“We the People are the rightful masters of BOTH Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution”
Abraham Lincoln
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
Abraham Lincoln
As a reminder Hermann Goering said at the Nuremberg Trials .
“The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.”
NSA General Keith Alexander told lawmakers “that even if approved, the measure would not necessarily end warrant-less collection depending on judicial interpretation.”
Time to start removing the corporate Congress from office & defunding the NSA to force them to comply with the law & impose jail time for non compliance under USC Title 18 Sec. 241 & 242 (Google it) .
We should not forget the waring of President Eisenhower .
http://youtu.be/8y06NSBBR
The NSA is controlled & operated by the DOD & the MIC (Military Industrial Complex) Private Corporations.
“The very word “secrecy” is repugnant in a free and open society; and we are as a people inherently and historically opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths and secret proceedings. We decided long ago that the dangers of excessive and unwarranted concealment of pertinent facts far outweighed the dangers which are cited to justify it.”
President John F. Kennedy
Waldorf-Astoria Hotel
April 27, 1961
As is said in the law, falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus. (“False in one thing, false in all things” is an instruction given to jurors: if they find that a witness lied about an important matter, they are entitled to ignore everything else that witness said.)
Disclaimer: Be advised it is possible, that this communication is being monitored by the
National Security Agency or GCHQ. I neither condone or support any such policy, by any Government authority that does not comply, as stipulated by the 4th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.
excellent quotes. thanks.
How does Greenwald not know the US had been caught on multiple occasions, long before Snowden leaks, doing economic/industrial espionage for US corps?
“Eavesdropping on the planet
The above is the title of an essay that I wrote in 2000 that appeared as a chapter in my book Rogue State: A Guide to the World’s Only Superpower. Here are some excerpts that may help to put the current revelations surrounding Edward Snowden into perspective …”
http://williamblum.org/aer/read/118
– William Blum
These corporations the intelligence services want to help are likely the same companies that are moving their headquarters outside of the US– so that they can avoid paying taxes to the same government that is helping them. Nice work if you can get it.
My last comment disappeared from the form when I hit submit. Strange Feature. Anyway my question was simply how do you define an American Corporation in this day and age. I think when you put all the pieces together you may answer that question.
But why are you assuming that the fruits of these efforts are given to “American” Companies. In this day and age…what are the international boundaries and interests of corporations. Step outside the definitions of countries and governments and corporations.
my first impression- I bet the Council for Foreign Relations are very close to this.
The new world empire, comprised of the too big to fail financial dynasties and multi-national corporate aristocracy are the puppet masters that own the NSA and America’s government and Military. Naturally the NSA will do whatever they are told to do in the ‘ national interests ‘ of capitalist imperialism. This imcludes fueling universal war and staging false flag attacks such as 9-11.
Notwithstanding the Executive declaring “they don nee no stinkin Congress ‘proval” of the phone dragnet…
http://www.emptywheel.net/2014/09/06/executive-still-hiding-its-phone-dragnet-self-authorization/#comment-683609
Thank you guys and the guys at news.ibis.media so much for the work you do to bring up the most important news.
By feeding its favored corporation valuable data, it can determine which corporation prospers or lives and which flounders or dies.
Because the NSA and its allied spy agencies have to decide which corporations/individuals will get that stolen economic data, the NSA helps determine US economic policy extra-democratically, on its own. It’s so insidious that the NSA, not the small business, not the corporation could very well be the key job creator. I want to know the quid pro quo arrangement as well as any bribes it makes to corporations in order to access any of the corporation’s spy-wrothy assets so that it can made deals with foreign governments like Iran and Russia behind our backs.
Obot-in-Chief, Oliver Willis, is a Media Matters “fellow,” and today sought to dismiss Glenn’s story above by claiming that the released, supporting document was already published 5 years ago at Wired. Willis ranted about this at Media Matters, and on Twitter.
Then, he was told by barrage of people — including Noah Schachtman who wrote the Wired piece — the Intercept’s document is a different, longer, classified one. Not the UNclassified document Wired published.
Willis refused to retract his piece at Media matters, or his tweets. The Greenwald haters have glommed onto this falsehood and it’s zipping around Twitter.
Irrational hate can make people stupid.
” The Greenwald haters have glommed onto this falsehood and it’s zipping around Twitter.
Irrational hate can make people stupid. ”
It’s a battle for the minds, it seems. And it’s hard not to see it as a well-orchestrated effort waged by those pained by the exposures, to inflict credibility injuries on Glenn by a million paper cuts – one hater at a time. It’s an old tactic that has at its core as the presumption of a pathological naivette and anaemic intelligence on the part of the public. But it never works. Synthesized truths are always a very poor imitation of the real thing. And tend to come across looking grossly worse than blatant lies.
Well, I also found out that this exact same document was released online in 2012. I mean, it’s clearly a carbon copy:
http://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanhatesthis/meet-instagrams-most-dapper-french-bull-dog#2v9bd0c
Or it’s pictures of a dog wearing funny hats, same difference. And, ok, maybe the page numbers are a little different and I guess this one was unclassified. That aside, though, pretty much the same, so, I think I made my point.
(In seriousness, I actually feel kind of bad for Oliver, because it *sucks to make a mistake in public, it really does, I hate that feeling. But the lack of what should have been a timely retraction, however brief or terse, was not cool or fair.)
You should stay on topic. This is not FRENCH BULL DOG topic.
ERRATA: I see no evidence that Willis wrote about this at Media Matters. He merely tweeted on and on about it. And won’t back down on Twitter.
“Obot-in-Chief, Oliver Willis, is a Media Matters “fellow,” and today sought to dismiss Glenn’s story above by claiming that the released, supporting document was already published 5 years ago at Wired. Willis ranted about this at Media Matters…”
“I see no evidence that Willis wrote about this at Media Matters…”
Conscious self negation? Really? This is merely one in an unremitting series of whole cloth assertions made by you.
Tell us Mona: How were you able to post such a boldface lie in the first place?
Wilhelmina: I always immediately own my errors, as soon as I know them to be such. Willis was tweeting his lie quite a bit, and many were objecting. Some we claiming Media Matters should be ashamed, and otherwise suggesting Media Matters had a responsibility to address the issue.
Upon re-reading the threads on Twitter, however, I saw no link to an actual story by Willis; only his lying tweets. So, I searched MM myself for such a story and found nothing. Whereupon, I concluded Willis did not write an article, but merely tweeted his lie.
Having made this realization, I came here and posted my errata.
“I always immediately own my errors, as soon as I know them to be such.” – Mona
In service to your own ideological bias, you chose to publicly defame a writer for views that he allegedly expressed in what you now admit was a non-existent article. Thus, you could not have possibly known that that which you chose to post was true. Even in this self-serving, half hearted attempt to acknowledge your dishonesty, you choose to characterize your falsity as mere “errata” while chronically failing to issue a public apology.
The claim that it was only by means self-editing that you were able to arrive at the “conclusion” that your original post was in error is a lame attempt at mitigating the obvious implications of your defamatory contrivances; such disingenuity does not qualify as an attempt at “owning up” to you errors.
[facepalm] Ok, Welhelmina. Let’s stipulate that I have “defamed” a writer (I didn’t — he actually wrote what I claimed, simply not also in the second venue I cited). But anyway, sure, I’m the revolting creature you have described; self-serving, engaged in “defamatory contrivances,” and teeming with “disingenuity.” Yeah fine, let’s run with all of that.
In the meantime, Oliver Willis drafted and sent a total lie about Glenn Greenwald zipping all over Twitter, a lie which other Glenn-haters (some reasonably prominent) picked up & amplified by retweeting. Willis was then presented with incontrovertible evidence that Glenn did not do what Willis claimed; Glenn did NOT publish the same document for this story that Wired had published 5 years ago. One of the authors of the Wired story told Willis so, and it is also evident by comparing the two documents.
Now get this, Wilhelmina. Oliver Willis, and some others who retweeted him and who now know better, will not tweet retractions. Willis will not admit he erred. Not only has he failed to apologize, he is petulantly digging in. And in affirming the original charge — as he has done– he has moved on to lying. For, mistakes are uttering false things one believes to be true; maybe he initially made a mistake. Lies, by contrast, are uttering false things one knows to be false.
Oliver Wilson has publicly defamed a writer. He has seen that lie race all over Twitter. He knows for certain it is false. He won’t retract. Rather, he’s dug in.
What do you think of Oliver Willis’s behavior, Wilhelmina?
“For, mistakes are uttering false things one believes to be true; maybe he initially made a mistake. – Mona
Indeed! In condemning him for his mistakes you condemned yourself.
“Lies, by contrast, are uttering false things one knows to be false.” – Mona
You published something as fact that was false. Reasonable steps should have been taken to validate said “fact” prior to publication. You had absolutely no basis for believing and publishing “false things” other than your own irrational, self-serving bias.
Any “reasonable” person would issue a public apology for an unintentional public slight without engaging in the type of sophistry that is consciously intended to further defame the victim under the guise of self correction.
Oh SillyPutty, now you’ve gone and done it. If Wilhelmina considered me the most foul specimen of (barely) humanity before, she will now consign me to a vile betrayer of wimmins.
You see, Wilhelmina doesn’t much care for sex. It’s icky, and good girls don’t. (Also, too, they dress only like Andrea Dworkin or Aunt Bea.) Alerting her to my long-time career as something of a vamp can only make her blood boil with disgust and rage.
I predict the Comment Apocalypse.
Wilhelmina, you willful idiot: the “public slight” I made of Oliver Willis is true. Got it? He really did tell a total falsehood about Glenn and his story. But he said it in one place, and not two, as I had originally thought.
Jane: “John Doe raped a toddler in Battery Park!”
Wilhelmina: “That’s awful!”
Jane: “Oops, Doe actually raped the toddler in Central Park.”
Wilhelmina: “Jane, you foul disseminator of calumny and defamation! You must make public apology to John Doe at once!”
Jane: “But I just got the wrong park; John Doe really did rape a toddler.”
Wilhelmina: “So, you continue to defame John Doe and will not apologize for it.”
Jane:”Oh look, on CNN Doe is being arrested for the Central Park child-rape…”
Wilhelmina: “You are ignoring the point. You owe your victim, John Doe, an apology for your unconscionable defamation.”
(Jane looks at Wilhelmina and sees a wild-eyed stare and pursed lips directed at her, realizes she is engaged with an irrational being, and nervously scoots away…)
“For, mistakes are uttering false things one believes to be true; maybe he initially made a mistake.” – Mona
While publicly admitting that it is possible that Oliver Willis was merely “mistaken” when he originally claimed that Glenn published a document that was identical to that which Wired had published 5 years ago, you nevertheless chose to grossly misinterpret his motives and actions by falsely asserting that he “ranted” said claim at the Media Matters blog. Although I too believe that it is reasonable to surmise that Willis could have been honestly mistaken in his original perception that the two documents were identical, I do not believe that it is reasonable to conclude that you had any basis for the claim that he published his mistaken perceptions at Media Matters. To the contrary, it is far more reasonable to conclude that you consciously intended to attribute actions to Willis that would falsely suggest a far greater degree of villainous culpability. It is for this “slight” on his character that you owe him an apology.
You’re wrong.
But you’re wrong.
OK: Oliver Willis, I am so profoundly sorry that I said you were a lying asshole at Media Matters, when in fact you were only a lying asshole on Twitter.
“I always immediately own my errors, as soon as I know them to be such.” – Mona
Hmmm, let’s put this claim to the test:
“I see no evidence that Willis wrote about this at Media Matters.” -Mona
I do not believe that it is reasonable to conclude that you had any basis for the claim that he published his mistaken perceptions at Media Matters. – Wilhelmina
You’re wrong. – Mona
Here you have it folks:
In spite of the fact that Mona has publicly retracted the false claim that Oliver Willis published a “ranting” opinion concerning the uniqueness of Glenn’s documentation on the Media Matters Blog, she continues to argue that it was “reasonable” for her to conclude that he did. Given Mona’s chronic propensity for self delusion, is it reasonable to expect that she will ever “own up” to her errors?
It was.
But I corrected as soon as I realized my immaterial error — immaterial b/c Willis *did rant as I said; merely at a different venue.
I’ve corrected an immaterial error. Oliver Willis, by contrast, won’t retract his lie about Glenn’s journalism. Why doesn’t that earn your outrage?
@ Wilhelmina – You penchant for constantly, unerringly, and voraciously missing the major point of what is wrong with what Mona posts is truly commendable.
But that same doggedness and determination sometimes leads you astray – you take your eye off the really important matters; the significant stories that tell us really and truly what we need to know about Mona’s character and her willingness to abdicate social norms at the drop of a hat; to commit unforgivable social faux pas that not only affect her, but, indeed, affect society as a whole – and, just perhaps, the fate of the entire universe.
While you, Wilhelmina, castigate relentlessly the perceived Twitter indiscretion by Mona regarding the twat, Oliver Willis, and his twits regarding the infallible Glenn Greenwald (outlined in indefatigable detail above) you’ve missed Mona’s greatest Twitter transgression and self-admission ever:
I’ve given up the fuck me pumps, tight jeans, gone for comfort” – Mona
That confession, brought forth not by the blundering tweets from twits like Oliver Willis, but by the incontrovertible evidence that uplifted kilts have a much larger narcoanalytic affect on most women than twats like Oliver Willis is your transgression, Wilhelmina; an almost unforgivable one that will almost certainly have the inevitable and undesirable butterfly-effect of allowing Mona’s thoughts to continue to be heard, unchallenged by you, across the entire spectrum of social media.
So get off you fat ass, Wilhelmina, and get with the real pogrom. What Oliver Willis says or what Mona thinks he said about Glenn Greenwald and what really happened in that whole torrid discussion means nothing in the end.
But when any woman admits in public that they’ll no longer wear “fuck me pumps?!?”
That, my dear Wilhelmina, is truly a cause of great concern; and a subject much more suited to your self-appointed, highly under-compensated, and much overvalued critiquing of what Mona says.
“Don’t let us forget that the causes of human actions are usually immeasurably more complex and varied than our subsequent explanations of them.” – Fyodor Dostoyevsky, The Idiot
Isn’t basic information the same in each version? And the fact that this was previously published should be indicated in the article above. That is the point, isn’t it?
No, that is NOT the point. The point is that Greenwald’s talking about the full version, not the half-full version, and therefore the previous version does not need to be acknowledged.
I think the original version leaves out the “spying” stuff, which is kind of the point of the article.
I have mixed feelings on seeing things like this published in general. I tend to have faith that Greenwald has good intent when he chooses to reveal various information, and his thinking is that this keeps power from becoming too concentrated or clues people into the fact that spying on behalf of corporations (which, if looked at from a certain angle, could look rather Big-Brother-like – the country’s wealthiest CEOs working in a direct way with intelligence agencies to advance their interests) has been considered. But I’m a US citizen, and I want to see my country do well. The document is all still a hypothetical musing about what could possibly be considered in a world that could possibly exist in a decade or so, and a world in which the US is no longer so advanced but more a ‘little guy’ anyhow, so I don’t know if publishing this type of information borders on gratuitous reputation-bashing.
That said, I still find out and out misrepresenting the story really irritating, and I don’t think it’s fair of Willis to make that mistake and then not only refuse to correct it but to get defensive that others would suggest he do so. I’ve actually been pretty impressed with how the US government has handled the Snowden leaks because, outside of trying to preempt one article, it seems like they’ve let things run their course and let people discuss and decide for themselves. No attempts, that I know of, to block publication or put real misinformation or smears out there. I think Willis, in trying to be supportive, is actually acting in just the sort of way that decreases rather than enhances trust – showing that when the chips are down, lying is not off the table. I don’t like that. No matter whose ideas you favor, there is always something to be said about behavior telling its own story.
You are 100% wrong in presuming this is “hypothetical musing”, by the intelligence agencies.
I’m not accusing you of anything, but it is known that comments that subtly seek to weaken the message, are themselves very effective perception management tools, as they are perceived to be from the readership, and consequently unbiased opinion.
Mr. Greenwald has been reporting the truth, all of the truth, all the time, taken directly from the writings of the intelligence agencies themselves, and from those in governments who assist in this attempt to subjugate mankind.
You know this full well, and the intelligence agencies know it, and you can bet they are engaged in developing measures they hope will silence Mr. Greenwald, and all who may contemplate following his example.
I don’t give you slavish agreement so I’m “one of them”, huh? That’s a bit totalitarian.
“You know this full well, and the intelligence agencies know it, and you can bet they are engaged in developing measures they hope will silence Mr. Greenwald, and all who may contemplate following his example.”
Unless you have something to back that up, I’m going to consider you a slanderous fear-mongerer. Thinking like that is why we had witch trials in this country. (It may also offer a modicum of balance against the human desire to become ever more conformist and secure, though, so I try to see value there in a big picture way.)
Also, if you are going to accuse me of something, don’t play silly games (I’m not accusing you of this, now let me make an accusation into the ether just ‘because’) just say you’re not 100% sure but you think I’m somebody’s shill.
I’m sorry if government power freaks you out, btw. It freaks me out at times, too, but it is one of many, many things I am scared of including overly aggressive bunny rabbits and heavy rainfall, which gives me a bit of equanimity on any individual fear. But just because you’re *afraid that something is happening, doesn’t mean you can go making accusations about innocent people as if they’re true.
Not my intention to castigate at all.
I was simply observing the possibility, as is often the case, with comments, that one of the sophisticated bots used by several entities in just about every outlet that permits such, employs many tactics, including ruminations such as yours to lessen the impact of the statement.
The NSA is extremely adroit in this regard.
Again, as you well know, a comma placed strategically, can render a thought something other than intended.
Apologies, I thought I was talking to someone leaning into conspiracy theorist territory, but you seem to be beyond that level and, in that light, my retorts just seem unkind. I will be rather blunt and rude and say you sound as if you’re struggling with paranoid delusions, Mel, and I hope you’re able to get some help (I know that’s very rude, sorry, but sometimes I feel like giving honest feedback might be better than tiptoeing around an issue.) Again, sorry for being quarrelsome before.
“The document … provided by NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden …”
I’m really loving that theme. No wonder they won’t pardon him. They have no idea which bombshell will be dropped next.
Oh, and the part about the US government being hypocritical … seriously?? //sarcasm//
Anyone who believes the IC when they say that they do not spy for the sake of corporate interest is delusional. Why else would they be spying on Petrobras and foreign engineers? They aren’t building massive buildings to house server stack after server stack, just to protect the securty and interests of Camry owners.
Research and development is hard work. By contrast, a few nanoseconds is all it takes for the NSA to download the fruits of many years worth of painstaking scientific effort. Economic prosperity depends on increasing productivity. So eliminating slow, unreliable activities like thinking and experimentation, and replacing them with much more efficient activities such as spying, is essential for economic progress.
Many readers will have been conditioned to resist this new paradigm by their school experience. Don’t you need at least one smart kid in the class, they will ask – otherwise who will everybody copy from during exams? Well, there is usually someone foolish enough to do the studying. But failing that, you can still seize direct control of the data by finding the file with the grades and then modifying it. So it is no longer necessary to painfully piece together a picture of reality by engaging in laborious scientific research. By pwning the computer networks, you create your own reality. I was impressed with the NSA before, but this preparation for a non-intellectual future elicits my special admiration.
Well said, as always, Neeto! You can bet today’s smart American college student knows the score – and a site called ‘Craigslist’, where the enterprising student can pay a geek chump-change to write their term paper for them. Capitalism rules, baby!
Always another rationalization.
So what happens when the spooks-in-charge convince themselves that turning over competitive data to a big U.S. company (including but not limited to defense contractors) is critical to the security of the United States? You have to turn your “naive dial” up to 11 to believe that won’t happen.
And, of course, when that company has that data they won’t use it to improve their bottom line in some way? Many would argue they were being criminally negligent to their stockholders if they didn’t do exactly that.
Finally, once they rake in a couple of billion they will account for it offshore so as not to pay any taxes on it. Job creators.
So. Humonguous Imperial intelligence apparatus used in the service of private corporations.
Our true enemy is about to be revealed!
Okay this is what we would expect if you are following the money. The surveillance state in the dark with loose controls would undoubtedly take economic advantage, I used to call some of them the Pandas with sunglasses from Houston…
Even though my slumber had been mercifully interrupted prior to the Snowden revelations and none of this should amaze me, I find myself shaking my head in disbelief with each new exposure as if waking from a surreal dream where the USA actually stood for morality or just plain right and wrong and knowing the difference. It’s not immorality but amorality. It’s as if the people in charge had no parents. Emotional, social, and intellectual orphans. Amazing.
It’s because these programs, policies and largely our govt (perhaps most govts) are being led by psychopaths. They have no motivation but their own agendas and no moral foundation. King of the hill has no rules except getting to the top and staying there.
The NSA revelations continue to expose just how coordinated and complete the corporate takeover of our entire system of government and politico-economy has become. It is frustrating to realize just how pervasive the elite’s stranglehold on our lives has become and just how few citizens understand the implications of this fact or even care about it. As the effects of global warming encroach on our standards of living more and more and the rich demand increasingly higher shares of the remaining resources, though, I have a feeling that resistance and revolutionary thinking will also increase in intensity. Unfortunately, by then I fear we will have a world that looks like the remains of a carved up and consumed Thanksgiving turkey carcas.
It’s extremely reminiscent of the “corporatocracy” that was described in the premise to that TV series Continuum. Really wish that more people would heed the thinly-veiled warnings against corporate rule in that series.
Glenn–
Thanks again for the due diligence in getting these documents and interpreting their significance. What I wonder is how long has the us been engaged in what amounts to corporate espionage. Decades, i would imagine. Definitely during the long Cheney administration (2001-present). I would guess that also probably during the Clinton administration. The sanctimonious hypocrisy on the part of the us govt essentially seals the truth of the matter in amber for posterity. The surveillance business sector is clearly one of the largest growth industries in the usa. i trace the justification back to the social Darwinists in corporate america (circa latter 19th c to present).
While the preponderance of evidence suggests that the US is likely doing this, it is a bit of exaggeration to say that this particular document qualifies as a “plan” to spy for US corporations. It seems to be an analysis of hypothetical scenarios, like war games, recommending this kind of spying if certain future events were to occur. Intelligence analysts do all kinds of scenario gaming all the time, with far more bizarre hypothetical circumstances and still more bizarre outcomes and conclusions. But none of these seriously qualifies as a ‘plan’.
Although I am a fan your reporting, I think you missed the mark this time, as this particular claim dilutes the combined strength of your many excellent articles on improper government surveillance.
“China/Russia/India/Iran centered bloc [that] challenges U.S. supremacy”
Fear of a super sovereign currency? And yet policies toward Russia seem to do nothing but incentivize its acceleration. They’re pushing Russia towards China. Why?
On a perhaps not so tangential note, Marcy Wheeler’s analysis of Dr. Strangelove’s op ed in the WSJ is worth your time.
http://www.emptywheel.net/2014/09/02/the-wests-ideological-vacuum/
Shades of Echelon. My fear is that we will eventually stop being shocked and dismayed by these revelations.
I am not anti-Greenwald by any means, but it’s appearing he ridden the Edward Snowden hobbyhorse to the brink of exhaustion. I couldn’t get past the first two paragraphs. I hope this isn’t the Big Reveal he promised us when he was doing press for his book. The Law of Diminishing Returns is setting in.
A reasonable speculation on this matter would also be: what do the US IT giants get in return from their co-operation with the NSA? We know there have been examples of monetary rewards (RSA scandal) but surely, big organisations like Microsoft would surely have leaked what was going on unless there was something in it for them – such as intellectual property from all the trusting organisations that were using their services.
From ‘The Boy Who Cried Wolf’ by Aesop:
“Nobody believes a liar…even when he is telling the truth”
From the article:
“A spokesman, Jeffrey Anchukaitis, insisted in an email that “the United States—unlike our adversaries—does not steal proprietary corporate information to further private American companies’ bottom lines,” and that “the Intelligence Community regularly engages in analytic exercises to identify potential future global environments, and how the IC could help the United States Government respond.” The report, he said, “is not intended to be, and is not, a reflection of current policy or operations.”
A Bloomgberg piece from over a year ago:
“Thousands of technology, finance and manufacturing companies are working closely with U.S. national security agencies, providing sensitive information and in return receiving benefits that include access to classified intelligence, four people familiar with the process said”
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-06-14/u-s-agencies-said-to-swap-data-with-thousands-of-firms.html
^
And of course, the satire:
http://ronaldthomaswest.com/2013/08/22/demons-anonymous/
^ addiction to destructive fantasies
The existing trend to blur the lines of ecnonomic progress in a orgy of protectionist military defense contractors is detailed in Janine Wedel’s book ” Shadow Elite: How the World’s New Power Brokers Undermine Democracy, Government, and the Free Market” published 2011.
Excellent roundup of phenomena we’ve been seeing for some time. Certainly the revelation about NSA and Petrobras was fairly obvious when it first was revealed: no terrorists at Petrobras, but a tranche of offshore leases in a delicate stage. Certainly inside information on the bidding would have been very good intel for the US oil industry, who could buy it for a song.
http://www.economist.com/news/americas/21588392-single-bid-vast-field-shows-weakness-brazils-state-led-approach-developing-its
The only question was when the merger of US and corporate interests took place, and who are the wholly-owned subsidiaries. Certainly before Petrobras; certainly before the 2008 bailout; possibly when Halliburton first emerged in the context of Iraq. Or maybe even further back, to judge by observers like Smedley Butler. And our choice of intervention in Syria, Iraq or Ukraine might depend on what’s in the oil-exploration or marketing reports, not anything resembling diplomacy.
One thing’s for sure: in normal corporations, the shareholders get to vote. This conglomerate doesn’t.
@ coram nobis:
Exactly.
Why bid on an oil field when a international economic conglomerate can just take it and reap the war profits on top?
“The Roots of the Iraq and Syria Wars Go Back More than 60 Years”
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/08/roots-iraq-war-plantedplanned-1948.html
Halliburton and Cheney certainly conspired in2005 to circumvent clean water and enviro regs in the US to the detriment of US public health with fracking. Can’t imagine they would worry about foreigners and small things like lies in their estimation- if they are going to poison their own people imagine and lie about it imagine how much they care for others.
Glenn Greenwald is a clever guy: while other journalist face the risk of loosing their jobs because of the internet, he secured himself a lifetime one, exposing the lies of the American Government. It’s not because we didn’t know: everybody over 20 with an average memory and intelligence should have known this already. But the extend of the lies is amazing and to see it all on paper is fascinating.
Of course these scenarios, that even Hollywood couldn’t have invented, are devastating for the mainstream media, that covered them up with small talk, stupid amusement and false nationalism. This complicity of the “watchdog of democracy” in fact is nothing better than betrayal of the public – http://tinyurl.com/l9rtz5t
By the way, speaking of Hollywood: I keep wondering why so few people are aware of the fact that if companies pay so much for 30 seconds of advertising, that it must be effective to sell goods and ideas. But the movie in between, advertising the US mindset 2 hours long wouldn’t have any affect at all? Or are aliens just the best way to advertise violence without any restrictions? Don’t even think about it and just go to sleep, satisfied that “good” has once again prevailed after the hero suffered so much.
Tomorrow “we” will do the same, wherever it’s necessary.
Exactly, have been thinking the same. Betrayal of every high principle of civilisation and honour that we stand for. And all in our name. But betrayal is something we all understand, in our personal lives small or inconsequential. But we know it and it leads to a visceral anger. May our awakening help restore our honour (and with it our prosperity).
With these revelations it’s becoming so hard to believe our government anymore. Much less look down on other societies. We still believe in the concept of America. But we should face our reality and reset our course. Of course the Billionaires will have to be taken down to do that.
“In May, the U.S. Justice Department indicted five Chinese government employees on charges that they spied on U.S. companies.
… ‘this is a tactic that the U.S. government categorically denounces’.”
In “Gorgias”, Socrates said that it is worse to do injustice that to suffer it.
In “The Republic”, we hear the opponents of Socrates saying it is good and pleasant to inflict injustice and bad to suffer it.
Do what I say, not what I do.
One could argue that various branches of an organization might explore possible future actions and might war-game scenarios that are not consistent with current policy, because policy may change as administrations change. But the contemplation of tactics that are wrong, immoral, and illegal is yet another indication that the spy agencies have gone rogue. Seems like they are in win-at-any-cost mode without an understanding of the consequences.
Massive domestic surveillance to protect America invalidates the reason that America is worth protecting. Acceptance of the notion that America might need to steal technological secrets in order to compete invalidates the idea that America is a powerhouse of creativity and genius. The spy agencies are like a personnel department that lays off all the company’s workers and claims the prize for biggest money-saving idea of the year. Is the company now making a bigger profit or is the company out of business because it has no workers? Let’s ask James Clapper.
IMHO, this isn’t one of Glenn’s better articles. On it’s face, it basically states that the US claims not to be involved with any industrial espionage, and then provides official statements backing up that claim. Without some actual evidence of espionage (outside of some documents advocating for just such a policy), the article should have focused more on the hypocrisy involved in the documents rather than upon us maybe doing something that we say we don’t.
I think he respects his reader’s intelligence enough to be able to make that inference ourselves. He really doesn’t need to spell it out.
I disagree. The article provides some evidence that the spy-agency advocacy of universal surveillance isn’t just a temporary measure to combat terrorism, and that there is little intention (within the spy agencies, at least) of returning to normal if the “war on terror” is accidentally won. The long-range plan is to use cyberspying as America’s new recipe for success. We don’t know if that plan will be implemented, but that’s what the spy agencies are going to put forward as their contribution to America’s future.
Seems to be some trouble getting the comments in chronological order with replies showing up under the comments to which they reply.
I have to refresh the page, then page down to the bottom of the comments that are showing and click on “Read more comments” to get everything into proper perspective. There still may be a delay in seeing a comment you posted, but they eventually seem to be posting (although I am still waiting on a comment I wrote with two links to post).
It’s a bit more of a song and dance than should be necessary, imho, but it is what it is for the moment. :-s
Tangential to Glenn’s point about United States’ technological and innovative edge slippage and the application of our spying technology to correct that erosion is the fact that our elected representatives are determined to put corporate profits ahead of local governmental efforts to maintain cutting edge technology for their citizens:
http://inquisitorpsyduck.tumblr.com/post/96652919312/questionall-while-internet-users-in-the-us
(Via Cory Doctorow on twitter)
And there is the domestic scene, where gov and corps work hand-in-hand to quash dissent.
“A spokesman, Jeffrey Anchukaitis, insisted in an email that ‘the United States—unlike our adversaries—does not steal proprietary corporate information to further private American companies’ bottom lines…'”
See the dodge? “US corporate profit isn’t the primary *purpose* of our espionage. National security is. Profit is merely an incidental effect.”
One of the few things we can depend on anymore is for the kleptofascists to lie to us. Now that they’ve taken over our government, “fascist” is not too strong a word, nor am I a drama queen for using it.
John Kenneth Galbraith, in his 1994 book (“The Good Society”, in chapter 13, entitled “The Autonomous Military Power”), argues that this autonomous power demands funding and denies any accountability to elected officials for how the money is spent on what weapons and intelligence, and to what purposes it is spent. And this to the tune of 400 to 600 billion dollars annually.
The commons of the USA is ruled by a power that denies its own existence and is totally unaccountable to any process known as democracy in any form.
But it is there if you look for it.
Just more proof/evidence that the Washington Regime and its secret police are a pack of criminals that steal private property and redistribute stolen property id est a giant fencing operation in stolen property.
Very good article Glen, clear, and to the point. Once again the DNI boss Clapper is caught blatantly lying, and it seems he will never stop as long as he is in Government. I suppose it’s his mind-set.
To recap: US government spending gazillions of taxpayer dollars (Which corporation vehemently oppose paying of taxes but now seem to reap even more benefits) on US corporate interests in terms of spying and spying on American citizens as well at taxpayer expense, and NOT spending their time on actually finding terrorists or identifying actual or real threats to the US and its interests.
Got it. Check. Perhaps the US government could also build US Corporation CEOs and CFOs summer homes on the French Riveria at taxpayer expense.
A general rule of thumb:
If the any agency or spokesperson representing the Directorate of National Intelligence, or the US Government, denies doing something….rest assured that they are actively engaged in doing that thing.
Remember the mandate….”We want it ALL.”
Unfortunately for the serfs in the International “Kingdom” this includes “all” of the land, land resources, and human slave assets on planet Earth.
“Give us your poor, tired, huddled masses” so that we can economically enslave them from the time of their birth. We can force them to serve us as robotic state entities in endless, illegal wars while we “Ruling Class” acquire yet more land and land resources with which to line our coffers. We can poison them with air, food, water, and drugs to decrease the surplus population. We can engineer famine, and pestilence. Those hearty specimens that cling to the notion of freedom can be imprisoned indefinitely and tortured before their own unnatural death at our hands. We can use our brainwashed human assets in national governments to demonstrate our absolute power of economic rule in complete secrecy without challenge. We can create an innocuous looking global front organization of elite Aryan hierarchy power structure. In this manner we can have one world Fascist rule and dominion over ALL inhabitants of Earth.
Yup….they want it all but We the Slaves have been at similar historical junctions before….many times. In the United States, we actually banded together and conducted a counter-revolution of our own…now known as the American Revolution. We won. We formed a Republic under a document called the Constitution of the United States of America. The thing still exists with Amendments which actually provide the citizenry with a few state acknowledged rights. It also provides for a national treasury and currency, one which is publicly owned as opposed to privately owned by the International Central Bankers. We the Slaves must claim our rightful place as rulers of our country…We the People. The imposter representatives must be removed from the government offices which they have been allowed to usurp and replaced with non-partisan representatives which We the People elect, as opposed to those which have been chosen by the International Central Bankers. All imposters and usurpers must be held accountable for their crimes of high treason against the national state of We the People. We can legally fight back and win again.
Regardless, this is one spirit that they can not have; not in life or death on any dimensional level within the multi-universe.
quote”We won. We formed a Republic under a document called the Constitution of the United States of America.”
No…”we” did nothing. It was the fearless patriots who lived in New England in the late 1700’s, who risked their lives and their family’s lives in a decade long struggle to secure,..ahem..OUR freedoms, which now have been reduced to lie, by a fascist Surveillance and Police State . In reality, most of the people in this country are cowards who the Framers would spit in their faces for not ALREADY dissolving this putrid out of control government full of Totalitarianism-R-Us fascists. Give the NSA a few more years, and Senator Frank Church’ words will become reality. And then, just like he said..there will be no place to hide. PERIOD. Oswell’s version distopian future is a joke compared to what is coming. Meanwhile, Murka shrugs and goes back to Keeping up with the Kardashians. Excuse me now, I have to vomit.
@ chronicle:
True about the original patriots as well as the kindred spirits that have historically risen to fight for freedom for citizens of the United States of America. Although I must note that the formation of the United States America was done by war for economic reasons( land and land resources) and political deception resulting in genocide of the Native Americans and/or herding of the indigenous population into open-air prison camps called “Reservations.”
This building of the economical power base of the “Ruling Class” also involved open-slave trade and slave ownership of people who were not “Aryan” or white in coloration. It has historically continued with repression and discrimination against various ethnic and religious groups that can be marginalized as “enemies.” This is done to set-up false divisional lines like; color, creed, gender, sexuality, etc. to advance the notion of polarity which serves to divide the mass of humanity into opposing sides so that the various populations/groups will not unite on common ground. This lack of unity allows the “Kings and Queens and all of their puppets, to rule in unfettered fashion. After all…there are many more slaves than masters and should the slaves ever unite against the masters, it would surely lead to the demise of absolute rule. There is much to be said for exposure though….it is like ripping off the “King’s” clothing.
We are 248 years into this Republic, we can not undo the history of wars and repression, but we can use the spirit of freedom to unite for that common cause. The true enemy is the Ruling Class that would impose economic and political oppression upon any population of people anywhere on planet Earth.
We are fortunate as Americans, to have the Constitution so that it may be used legally to stop tyrannical rule. However, it seems to me that there is a window of opportunity to fight this tyranny with peaceful means and that window has opened. Failure to unite and fight peacefully now, will force other possible confrontational methodology but with the presence of the Martial Law State, it might be too late for united mobilization and that scenario would constitute an individual battle for survival.
In that eventuality, you have obviously made your choice as have I.
“Mr. President, it is natural to man to indulge in the illusions of hope. We are apt to shut our eyes against a painful truth, and listen to the song of that siren till she transforms us into beasts. Is this the part of wise men, engaged in a great and arduous struggle for liberty? Are we disposed to be of the number of those who, having eyes, see not, and, having ears, hear not, the things which so nearly concern their temporal salvation? For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst, and to provide for it.
…..Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, Give Me Liberty or Give Me Death!” – Patrick Henry 1775
http://www.barefootsworld.net/libertyordeath.html
Response to Lyra1: There’s plenty of historical evidence to your comment. Native Americans, African Americans, Japanese interment camps. Now American Muslims. Divert attention to deflect from the real enemy by “blaming others”. I think that methodology would be implemented nefariously between the 90 million African Americans & Hispanics. Betty Medsger’s book, The Burglary is worth the read. Riveting detailed account of stolen FBI documents exposing the blatant civil rights violations committed by the FBI. Safe bet to say that JE Hoover would be proud of his future contemporaries – Crapper, Alexander, Hayden.
Hi Lyra1 –
Reading your comment I immediately thought of the struggle of the fast food workers to get a living minimum wage and to unionize. If you or anyone missed it – there was an account in The Guardian:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/04/fast-food-protests-dozens-arrested-low-wages
Reading through the comments, I’m continually amazed at how little empathy and compassion *some* people have for their fellows. And these are milti-billion dollar enterprises – talk about keeping the serfs down!
I also think you and jools made good points.
But just a short note to chronicle: well, yes, New England patriots (including my man, John Adams) seem to have led the charge, but there *were* patriots throughout the colonies – NY, PA, DE, VA – and (gasp!) even here in NJ! We even had our own tea party right here in my home county! (and I think Lyra1 was using “we” metaphorically, not literally :-) )
@ feline16:
Yes…Central Bank imposed poverty with subsequent state austerity measures is happening all over the planet. On that note, the is what the Fed is saying:
“Report: It’s YOUR Fault: Fed Says Americans Who “Hoard Money” Are To Blame For Poor Economy”
http://www.activistpost.com/2014/09/report-its-your-fault-fed-says.html#more
See….we “slaves” are hoarding “money” while they steal the real assets from us. This would actually be funny if the bulk of the population could actually see the handwriting on the wall.
Re: Chronicle….Obviously I can’t speak for him but I did not take his comment in a negative light. I suspect that just sick and tired of “lip-service”. He is a patriot and strongly upholds the Constitution; so gets disgusted with the endless rhetoric that appears to be going nowhere and accomplishes only cosmetic reform. Unfortunately, he is justified in his viewpoint which I actually share. The Washington DC Criminal Cartel (politicians in all three branches of the Federal Government) should have been relieved of power several years ago and this should have been accomplished by We the People. I, like him, am tired of talking and trying to awareness with futile comments which fail to produce collective results; which leaves one with no true ultimate recourse except commitment to self-defense. It is an individual choice and one which does not make lightly.
“Give me Liberty, or Give me Death” – Patrick Henry 1775
Hi Lyra1 –
Will definitely have to check out that link.
I’m sure chronicle does get frustrated (and I did put a smiley after my we note… and I also wanted to make sure that we remember that of course NE had a big leadership role, it took 13 colonies (Yeah, even NJ :-) —- … if you read his comment in the last post by Ryan Gallagher, he does express that for sure. I’m sure you do, too…. and believe it or not, I do as well.
It’s so hard trying to talk to even family about these issues sometimes —— they get argumentative, I get defensive…. I blog, hoping to spread some awareness, but judging from lack of response there, folks are just not tuning in. I feel very much like that one fellow at Glenn G.’s book talk on one of the c-spans who was wondering why we people just aren’t more engaged on spying and other issues. Different reasons, I suppose, as we’ve sometimes discussed here. Still, I look at what’s going on, and wonder why more people don’t see the dangers. I am so concerned that people won’t wake up until too late —- and that clock is ticking all right.
Well, I’m off to read that article. Oh and anyone interested you can read about the colonial tea party that happened in my own county here: http://www.co.cumberland.nj.us/content/163/233/403/
Dare I try 2 links?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenwich_Tea_Party
It is inevitable that we will slip behind. When a country prioritizes all things military above everything else for funding this is the result. When a country enacts trade agreements that foster the rampant flight of manufacturing to distant shores where wages are a pittance because no one cares about worker safety or living conditions, this is the result. When the world prioritizes corporate profit above public health, and the financial well-being of an elite minority (however you choose to define that) over that of all others, then the result cannot help but be losses to innovation and improvements for all.
http://www.startribune.com/local/212641391.html
My professional field, HIV research, has been heavily affected by flatlined funding for the NIH and other health organizations worldwide for the past decade. At a time when researchers are on the cusp of innovative breathroughs in not just HIV research but also TB, malaria and many other fields, funding cuts have most heavily weighed on the laboratories – always the lowest common denominator – where underpaid and understaffed workers do the most basic tasks necessary to support the work as envisioned by some of the most talented and innovative people in the field of medicine.
In addition to the innovation consequences though, there has been an increase in safety issues as well, with reports coming out of the CDC of mishandling of dangerous pathogens in the very laboratories where such things should never happen. When you try to do cutting edge research at the same time that funding is essentially being decreased safety programs, which take time and cost money, are one of the first things that get shorted.
In a comment prior to mine, the scoffer writes,
One answer may be that stealing other’s ideas and developments is simply cheaper than developing one’s own course to innovation.
But is it really cheaper to spy and steal knowledge? Or, rather, is it just that we have undergone a radical shift in priorities – and the concomitant funding – based on a corruption of what our governmental agenda should be? Is it really cheaper to fund the military, NSA, CIA and their agendas than it might be to fund public works and scientific, cultural and societal developments? No one will know because no one will be permitted to do the cost/benefit analysis on the industries who spy on us and the world. We have moved beyond mere proprietary information into the realm of state/corporate secrets, where nothing is more zealously and jealously protected.
Hear, hear! Thank you for sharing this important information and point of view!!
“But is it really cheaper to spy and steal knowledge? [] Is it really cheaper to fund the military, NSA, CIA and their agendas than it might be to fund public works and scientific, cultural and societal developments?”
Probably not, and by an order of magnitude at that.
It’s easy enough to steal an assortment of trade secrets; it’s much harder to steal the expertise that is built if you support development of new ideas, practices, & protocols. Even if some other guy wants to steal them, it’s tougher in practice to abscond with those kinds of ‘goods’. ‘Practices’ info is probably the most valuable data that nation-state actors can steal. They get some of that when they tap email content streams. Or Dropbox. But they can’t actually steal personnel for the most part (duress is not conducive to creativity). Some flag-wrapped thief’s understanding of purloined datastreams will never be as complete as that of the men who created them.
If Chinese state actors manage to re-invent our processes, it’s because the material they steal serves like a starter in fermentation. Their engineers can build off a base we created, sure. Quite well sometimes, and quite often. But, their ability and willingness to steal from us is secondary to their commitment to developing in-house, native talent.
We no longer have a government committed to building scitech expertise. We have highly favored natsec bureaucracies that are devoted to (& successful at) self-perpetuation…… but our disempowered R&D agencies are continually sucking hind tit.
Well said, both of you. This is the crux of it. We dare not let our military prowess slip. Having created enemies and resentments outside of our borders, having given birth to a 0.01% whose influence to preserve their socio-economic perch is nearly iron-clad, we reap the “rewards” of a frightened and defensive ruling class. Trade-offs will have to be made. And, if unequivocally preserving the well-being of this elite is essential, then “alternatives” have to be explored. Like every other damned economic decision that seems to get made these days, the short run is the pre-eminent planning horizon. So, we’ll repurpose some of the slack we’ve created in this nat sec edifice to economic espionage. We’ll steal what we can’t produce ourselves. And, when the institutional memory and institutional arrangements that once powered our innovative engine/economic superiority are lost… Well, that’s off in the future somewhere. A future our elites lack the imagination to countenance. It’s never been that way before. Surely, something will turn stuff around in time.
We dare not let our military prowess slip.
It really is disheartening to see how many people fall for, “Teh Barbarians are at the gate! They are barbarically beheading people and putting women in body bags with eye holes! Gak!!!”
We’ll steal what we can’t produce ourselves. And, when the institutional memory and institutional arrangements that once powered our innovative engine/economic superiority are lost… Well, that’s off in the future somewhere. A future our elites lack the imagination to countenance.
They don’t need to imagine it. The evidence is there if one casts one’s jaundiced eye on the manufacturing sector of the economy. Of course, one must first develop the ability to see beyond the rose-colored tint of one’s profitability blinders. :-s
>”We dare not let our military prowess slip. Having created enemies and resentments outside of our borders”
Yes, it is the fate of empire to collapse of its need to defend against threats to its security real or otherwise, and so more and more territory must come under its control, to keep us safe, as we know.
Chris Christie certainly looks like a bloated Nero with a thumbs down attitude.The parallels are endless. The barbarian invasion and slave revolts are already in progress.
Wealth is power. Concentration of wealth concentrates power. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. How do we address the central issue. I say universal individual bankruptcy. Let every individual also incorporate themselves and offshore their incomes.
We no longer have a government committed to building scitech expertise.
And not just building but maintaining as well. One of the biggest battles that the ACTG/IMPAACT HIV research groups have with DAIDS/NIH is getting them to understand why laboratories must maintain expertise/staffing and cannot just lay off workers when projects are dormant, then bring them back when the shit hits the proverbial fan in terms of work volume. Research ebbs and flows, but you can’t just fire someone who runs your PCR machinery and/or processes for PBMCs, or other even more technical processes, and expect them to be available – with current skills needed to do accurate research work – six months later when 100,000 samples arrive for processing/assaying once the specimen collection portion of a protocol is completed.
It’s fucking ass backward and monumentally destructively short-sighted, but it’s exactly what you do if all you’re interested in is maintaining high profits/low expenditures.
If one wants a classic example of this, one need look no further than the current situation we have with drug-resistant bacteria and the lack of treatment options for folks who are infected with them. People are dying, just like they did before the discovery of penicillin, and big pharma’s response line closely resembles “There’s not enough profit in the development of that category of drugs”.
When we choose to run everything on the planet as a business venture, completely writing off anything that smacks of a benefit to society or the commons, we WILL suffer accordingly. It just takes a while for the suffering to reach those at the top, but it will eventually. The elite travel. So do infectious diseases. And the elite aren’t as protected from these things as they think they are. After all, once common surgeries such as tonsillectomies and appendectomies – let alone things like joint replacements or plastic surgery and other electives available only to those who can afford them or are sufficiently insured – can no longer be undertaken because we have insufficiently effective preventive therapies to administer to protect against infection, life WILL change for everybody.
“When we choose to run everything on the planet as a business venture, completely writing off anything that smacks of a benefit to society or the commons, we WILL suffer accordingly.”
Well said, Pedinska, and I totally agree. This whole subdiscussion was quite interesting as well.
My professional field, HIV research, has been heavily affected by flatlined funding for the NIH and other health organizations worldwide for the past decade.
Those of us in space physics have mistakenly thought that at least medical research was not being cut to the bone.
Unfortunately not. The cuts begun under Bush have, like so many other things, continued under Obama.
Oh, God. Maintenance.
Some of the problems in academic research science aren’t specifically or easily attributable to cuts in funding. However, they spring from the general devaluation of research that is signaled by the constant budget cutting.The sporadic (but unidirectional) funding squeezes provoke perverse decision-making in administration. Large numbers of support (or basic research) staff are now funded with soft money – year after year after year. That is not really how you should be funding techs, librarians, cartographers, etc. Especially not the techs.
And the deferred maintenance — of vehicles, teaching tools, very basic equipment – is nuts. Department chairs don’t trouble their head with such things much, but if they drop a tech to halftime and fail to fill an administrative position when the all-knowing Baby Boom battleaxe retires…….. eventually key things don’t get done. Like brake jobs.
.. eventually key things don’t get done. Like brake jobs.
Or keeping track of those last few vials of smallpox. :-s
Anybody know how to get a reply to actually go after the comment where you clicked “reply”. How do you do blockquotes?
If you click on the “Read More Comments” box at the bottom of the comments section, it should read that way and you will be able to see allof the comments from latest to earliest. For blockquotes use
like we use to do back at Salon.
Well it didn’t show my complete reply. Use the html tag that we used to use at Salon using the carrot signs rather than brackets.
And you have to refresh in order to get the “Read More Comment” box.
It was easier to learn how to do the Electric Slide. :-s
Ah, I think i have it now. Just click the button at the bottom of the page until things stop getting better. Thanks.
Oh, and sometimes that button is between the text and the comments instead at the bottom. Maybe most of the time; who knows?
I find that the more pomtinis I have the more it moves around. YM – and cocktail of choice – MV. ;-}
While we are discussing the electric slide and other dance steps necessary for commenting in a semi-coherent fashion, can anyone from TI who might be perusing the comments let us know why comments that contain more than one link may – or most often, may not – appear? I have had multi-link comments,
1. appear close to immediately
2. appear after significant time lapses, but in the proper time slot for when they were actually posted (sort of like having your comment beamed into a parallel commenting system)
3. and not appear at all (the Commenting Black Hole Theory).
It’s really disconcerting to spend a bit of time looking things up to refute something, but then have them vanish into the nether regions without so much as a whiff to indicate they ever existed at all.
It’s only slightly less disconcerting to have them furtively appear in the middle of the night in the bowels of a part of the comment section that has passed into the dust-gathering region of obscurity.
And it’s sort of infantilizing to be forced to deal with discreet points in a refutation by posting serial comments in order to bring attention to multiple pieces of supporting evidence. This latter makes me feel like I’m on twitter instead of in the commenting section of TI.
/rant :-s
p.s. I am thankful that someone was able to correct the issue we were having previously. It gives me hope that this plea will not fall on deaf ears/blind eyes/finger stumps/whatever. ;-}
On the page with ALL comments displayed, Pedinska 05 Sep 2014 at 5:06 pm is displayed on the 5th level, with NO reply link beneath it.
On the page with less than all comments displayed, that same comment by Pedinkska appears on the TOP level WITH a reply link. That’s a bug. I’m attempting to use that reply link with this comment.
Also, everyone has probably noticed that replies (on the same level) are sorted in reverse chronological order (newest to oldest). That’s also a bug.
@Pedinska – If you’re reading this on the page with ALL comments displayed, my reply to your 05 Sep 2014 at 5:06 pm comment appears above your comment. That’s because replies on the same level are being sorted from newest to oldest. I just wanted to make sure you see my reply. (As to why this reply is appearing below your comment (if it is), see my 6:10 reply.) That’s all.
@Pedinska – Yes, there’s still a wait before comments with multiple links are posted. See here for more info. Scroll up a bit to see the top of the comment.
Damn, just one more! If the “READ MORE COMMENTS” button is used to display all comments, the top level sort is from newest to oldest, and replies are sorted from oldest to newest, as the replies should be. BUT if all comments are displayed by adding “?comments=all” to the URL (see the link in my 5:57 comment), then both those sorts are reversed. That’s why I was saying that replies on the same level are sorted newest to oldest. That’s ALL.
Thanks for trying to help barncat. The comment that you are replying to was, I thought, supposed to be a standalone comment and not a reply. Oh well, more knowledgeable people than I are no doubt wrestling with these things. Until a solution materializes I guess I’ll just have to go with separate comments for multiple links. The original is still wafting about the ether.
Time for a pomtini to assuage my grief. ;-}
Same as always: [blockquote] … [/blockquote] Except, of course, use < instead of ].
Thanks Kitt. I will get it to work eventually.
This article is very disappointing to me. The headline and first few paragraphs strongly imply that the Greenwald has a document showing NSA is spying for US corporations. But, once I read past the introduction, I find that the leaked report referenced is simply the result of planning for hypothetical future scenarios. The report contains absolutely no evidence of the implication that NSA is performing corporate espionage. In my mind, it is exactly same as the war plans the Pentagon produces for invasions of Canada or the UK. It is the responsibility of the NSA (and the Pentagon) to anticipate and plan for all possible future threats. Would you have them stop doing that Greenwald? Not to mention the idea that just because something could happen means it will happen is a gross logical fallacy.
I’ve been on the fence about the Snowden leaks. On the one hand, I’m grateful for the peek behind the curtain provided by Snowden and Greenwald. On the other, I’m concerned about how the information Snowden leaked is being twisted and spun by Greenwald to support his political viewpoint. I would be much more supportive of Snowden’s decision if he would have supplied the leaked docs to someone a little more impartial and cool-headed. Basically, I’m concerned that the information I get about the Snowden leaks is not accurate because the gatekeeper is an ideologue. Greenwald’s reporting is dripping with venom, especially since he started writing for the intercept. How can I trust you, Greenwald, when you have such strongly-held viewpoints and beliefs? How do I know you are not being influenced by confirmation bias as decide what to report?
I hereby call for Greenwald to pass copies of the leaked documents to another individual or media organization that has less of a bias. I don’t have any suggestions at the moment. Maybe we as the Intercept readership community can discuss and come to a consensus on an outlet. Greenwald can continue reporting as he sees fit with his copies. The other outlet will do the same. At least, we will have two viewpoints, instead of just one.
Who would ever have thought that all ‘spying’ agencies engage in lies, deception and misinformation? It is their modus operandi, just as it is of any Israeli…
The time is rapidly approaching when the US will have to abandon all pretence of moral superiority and simply focus on the Nixonian insistence: “It’s legal when WE do it!”
It’s clear that the US intelligence community, as an organisation, has literally no principles and will do exactly what it thinks it can get away with. As these leaks continue to reveal this fact, and the similarity between the behaviour of your government and the villains you have constructed in Russia, China, and Iran becomes more pointed, the ground with which you’ll be able to provide a sense of Manichean tribal identity will shrink vanishingly.
Then what?
ISIS – Funded by the CIA & Orcastrated by the Obama adminsitration – Followed by EBOLA.. Look out world – it’s a deadly virus – unlike SARIN or VX which the IRANIAN’s do not have.. Although the lies that spread throughout there administration are the Key.. Yellow Cake uranium, not a lot of good unless you know the refining process for Red Mercury!
Thanks for confirming what we all thought to be true.
The much more logical, reasonable, honest approach to technological supremacy would be to invest in superior educational opportunities which should be afforded to all American citizens, but it’s seen as easier to cheat and lie I guess. Similar to the current attempts to curtail voting rights by passing restrictive, unconstitutional voter ID laws. America no longer knows how to compete other than through bullying and cheating. It’s a sad state of affairs.
And for context, the rest of the world is chalk full of choir boys right?
*Chock*
English second language?What’s your first?I’m in suspense.
It’s kinda like the “Family Values” politicians who are always going on about how moral and righteous they are as compared to the rest of us, getting caught in the men’s room at the MN airport soliciting gay sex from the neighboring stall.
Or like the former governor of Virginia, a “family values” man who, when tried for bribery and extortion while in office, attempted to blame it on his wife. Even Macbeth was never that crass. Say, when is their sentencing?
Jan. 6 so they can all “enjoy” the holidays together I guess. If they had been black, it probably would have been just before Thanksgiving.
This article isn’t about the rest of the world. It’s about exposing how American government officials lied to the public.
There’s an old pearl of wisdom…clean up your own mess first. Of course, American Exceptionalists don’t haftah!
Hi avelna2001 –
I absolutely agree 100% with your idea of investing in superior education. I’m a retired educator – and have always felt (as did my parents) that education was so instrumental in personal and societal development.
Of course, the way things are is problematic… I taught math at a community college. I found that a bit part of student success was motivation – and not all students were as motivated as they should be. We need parents, family members and mentors to stress education and to be involved in the education of children/mentees. I think most educators and researchers would agree with this.
I think we also need for society as a whole to show we value education, in ways big (say, increase teacher salaries, improve and refurbish schools, make sure schools are fully equipped and fully funded) – and small (spotlighting high achieving students, erasing the stereotype that achievers are “geeky losers”…)
I could go on, but I think that’s all for my soapbox right now.
Clapper said the US does not steal trade secrets. Umm. Is this the same Clapper that was caught recently lying to Congress? Yeah, I thought so. He was just caught in another lie. Oh well. US has no credibility anymore and hence no soft power anymore in the world. The world including friends and allies of the US needs to prepare for the coming “Bunker Days” of the collapsing US empire. The US will be unleashing a lot of violence in the coming years as it loses its grip on control. One has to wonder about the total lack of US help to contain the Ebola outbreak in Africa. Is this an example of unconventional warfare that we will see from the US? What exactly is the US strategy to open their southern border?
They’re not cheating really, I mean let’s look at this objectively, china has a history for ripping off idea’s from FORD Cars, it’s just the way the world turns, is it cheating to shoulder surf someone else’s password or login? Many hackers would argue no, it’s not cheating, the original user was just far too stupid to look over there shoulder whilst they typed out there password.. Hence a lot of IT departments computers actually have *Wing* mirrors that are there so you can spot someone standing behind you! As for trade secrets, they dont have a lot of those left… Unless you mean trading in peoples browsing habits, trading in how to decrypt shitty windows disk drives, trading in Mac OSX with lots of JAVA and XML.. Trading in Phones that where designed from day on to include shitty security so they could listen to all you’re phone calls.. I dont really have a problem with them wanting to weed out the needle’s but I draw umbridge over the fact they would consider everybody to be a potential needle!
But meh, it’s you’re at dollars at work! PETOBAS & MERKEL oh man, that will never get old…
If they’d actually worked on a distributed sane system from day one, where everybody can connect anonymously to everybody else and that was maintained by actually being part of the INTERNET backbone, then it’s kind of easy to report content you disagree with or dont like, but here we are years later and now we’ve learned, they cant be trusted, because absolute power corrupts and it corrupts absolutely!
What can I include, well I like my porn.. I like the idea of being able to pull my plumbs without the idea of some NSA retard watching me whilst I do it! Privacy butt-tard!
I dont watch you beat off in the shower do I?
But this is there idea of a better world, where you have not a single private moment?!
Where you’re device will target you for assassination! EPIC!
Why would the Chinese spy on FORD cars? I mean there decent car manufacturers in Europe, Japan and even Korea.
Unfortunately, there’s a significant and loud minority of the population who, quite intentionally, devalues education – believes that teaching children religious and partisan political beliefs is much superior to teaching science, math, reading and writing and they seem to be winning the education debate. That and the unwillingness to fund education at the level which would allow the US to attain and maintain its high technological and cultural achievement. Maybe if we changed course now we might be able to turn the tide around, but I’m not optimistic.
It is hypocrisy, no doubt. But for the time being, the U.S. can shout at other countries from its soapbox because there is no proof it is engaging in industrial espionage now, and because we are the most technologically advanced and have the most to lose. Countries like China and Russia have the most to gain. If I were in Chinese intelligence, I’d be trying to steal U.S. Industry stuff as well. after all, much of its industry is state-run so the notion of protecting global competition is quaint.
So yes, we should have no illusions that just because today the US don’t engage in massive scale industrial espionage like the Chinese do, that in 15-20 years from now, if we were no longer the technological world leader, we would not hesitate for a second to do the same.
The better discussion is what the US is doing to protect itself from such infiltrations and whether the global community should aim to establish rules to prohibit industrial espionage. And if they did, would it even matter if Intelligence agencies simply ignore the rules.
Therein lies the problem: our national security bureaucracy has encouraged weak private sector cybersecurity for decades.
Like Macroman, I don’t have a problem with the natsec establishment actually looking after natsec.
I have a problem with bureaucratic self-perpetuation, and I don’t like seeing taxpayers dollars siphoned off for the benefit of companies that will screw us all in heartbeat. The well established practice of telling us that it’s all done for our own good – that we citizens are subordinates who should put up & shut up – is not wise.
Should the U.S. be nothing other than a disorganized, overweight clone of China?
That depends entirely on your view point, all these nation-states have there own SYSADMINS and there own operators that are clued up enough to know how these systems actually work, if it means you have to unplug your device from the global INTRANETS then I’m sure those SYSADMINS take that into deep consideration. It’s not as Open a SYSTEM as you’d believe… There are Rules! Such as the General Public License, those Rules are in place for the General Public not for the Benefit of Closed System’s maintained by the likes of LOCKHEED or NORTHROP! An certainly not in place for the likes of Greedy people that want to buy TurnKey (tyranny) technology only so they can make a profit selling it to government departments whilst disclaiming all liability when they get discovered uncovered and put on public display for trying to control it all.
There are no illusions about this. The NSA’s own docs prove the US engages in industrial espionage on a scale far greater than China’s and Russia’s combined.
That is just plain BS.
How would you know? Unless you can prove it, you too are full of bullshit.
Respectfully, both of us can’t be full of it. Either the US is the biggest offender or it is not.
I made more than just an informed inference. Given the number of US military & espionage bases scattered around the world, the fact the US is the internet’s main international traffic hub, and the proven collusion of globalized US tech companies, saying China and Russia are comparatively disadvantaged in the corporate espionage field simply because they do not have nearly as many military/corporate/spy assets around the world is a statement of fact, not a declaration of faith.
Countering with “but, but… we’re the good guys!” is a declaration of faith, not a statement of fact.
You need proof? Well lets see, Windows 3.1 (NT) commercial license.. oh look it was free.. Windows 95 – strange things happening to ADVAPI.dll and suddenly NSA_key.dll
Google android – Linux with embedded JAVA? It’s own API/PKI and not a single shred of Secure Sockets Layer?
Oh but wait it’s got NSA security enhanced linux! Are you a retard? If it’s got JAVA then all that SELinux does is make it harder to unlock the device and see what they’re actually upto!
What I really love is there attacking there own embedded systems trying to OWN it all, you can’t it doesnt work, it was designed from the ground up to resist the influence of idiots!
But for the time being, the U.S. can shout at other countries from its soapbox because there is no proof it is engaging in industrial espionage now, and because we are the most technologically advanced and have the most to lose.
Really, how much naivete and/or nationalism does one have to embody to make the above statement after the long string of governmental rationalizations that Greenwald & company have explicitly shown to be outright lies?
This very article lays bare the lies perpetuated by Clapper over financial/economic spying. Since corporate profits are intertwined with economic issues, why on earth would you doubt for a second that the categorical denials about corporate/industrial spying have even the tiniest iota of truth to them?
As for whether or not we are the most ‘technologically advanced’, I would say that there are already signs that this may not be true any longer.
http://geeknizer.com/internet-speeds-and-cost-worldwide-graph/
That was from 2009. If you move into 2013 and only look at speed – erasing the cost/benefit analysis of obscene amounts of money charged for local internet access and the ongoing battles over US cities attempting to provide public access umbrellas – we still only moved up to 9th:
http://mashable.com/2013/08/22/fastest-internet-world/
I’m sure all of that will improve though just as soon as Comcast and Time Warner have their merger approved and are able to move forward unobstructed with their plans for tiered-access internet service. I’m guessing they won’t be lining up at the NSA to find out what their competition across the world is up to.
One question that the article begs is, “Why is the U.S. slipping behind in technological innovation?” How can that be happening in the world’s wealthiest country; one that prides itself so highly on its scientific achievements and cutting-edge breakthoughs? One answer may be that stealing other’s ideas and developments
is simply cheaper than developing one’s own course to innovation. Screw the chumps who actually did the work. Surely, there are other forces involved, but financial influence is always a good place to start.
Maybe theft of US IP is not the explanation for American backwardness. Maybe the answer is in human nature.
Americans are just people, like anyone else; historical parallels will be applied, fairly or not. At the end of the 18th century, Qing ruled China had been the world’s richest country for some time, exporting refined goods for Mexican silver.
China’s rulers felt euphoric about their country at that time, and were too complacent and exceptional to concern themselves with matters — including technological advances — outside the middle kingdom. China remained exceptional in the eyes of the Qing and their supporters even half a century after China became Europe’s punching bag.
Many Chinese did then what many Americans are doing now: indulging in self-proclaimed, willfully ignorant exceptionalism, decades after the country’s own undevelopment phase had begun. Maybe the US will fall behind because its elected pols don’t see the need to invest public funds in non-military R&D, upgraded transport and sanitation infrastructure, public, secular schools with quality science programs, and all that other nonsense. (Killin’ and stealin’ thangs is much easier, and the killin’ part is downright titillatin’.)
I think this backwardness is a result of conscious choices, similar to those made by other civilizations in other times.
To paraphrase Gandhi,what intellectual property?All I see is a wasteland of intellect.
When one ships out its manufacturing overseas,the technological advances go with it.I bet even our weaponry,which hasn’t met an equal foe for a half century,is not so advanced as they say it is,witness the F-35.We might soon find out again, if our hydrophobic monsters keep at it,but of course their blood won’t be shed,just their rubes and dupes.
Hello, world.
Want to break the back of the petroleum “company store,” not to mention the US Government lies and “muscle” it’s bought for a century?
Sow hemp everywhere possible, let it grow wild for your people – and tell the US DEA eradicators to go fuck themselves — forever.
Superfood – juice it, eat it as a vegetable, it preceeded humans by some 50 million years and has more pro-health properties than many foods combined
Superfiber – building material for anything imaginable and complete replacement of petrochemical synthetic textiles in a renewable
Supermedicine – already proven to restore essential immune-system function, fighting / curing both neurological dysfunction and cancerous cell growth
Superoils – capable of producing cleaner energy and superior lubricants / sealants while also reducing pollution and environmental toxins from production
Supersoil remediation – Guess what can greatly help rid soils and streams of both petroleum and agriculture pollutants when let to grow wild…?
If the rest of the world quits buying ANY drug lies about hemp and gets busy inventing stuff from it NOW, the company store and it’s muscle – are done.
Sorry I soapboxed, Mr. G, the story – had that effect.
@ NFJTAKFA:
But gee…that would benefit humanity.
The money masters don’t want that…they want it all.
It is not in their mandate to create…just to destroy.
@Lyra1 (does this do anything?)
Create and destroy are typically superfluous concepts where unfettered greed is concerned.
But I’d say you’re on target most multinational CEOs have little conscience and no sense of collective consciousness. Many probably also qualify as – clinically insane.
They’re not just truly sociopathic, their greed overcoming any sense of right and wrong when causing harm to others or OUR planet for profit$ – is clearly psychopathic. I believe it was Thom Hartmann I first heard discussing this almost a decade ago.
@ NFJTAKFA:
In this uncertain time of comment terror at TI – which is no doubt related to certain programmed format changes within the comments section – specific user address might increase the possibility that an individual will be able to see ( or even find) a reply to comment.
Definitely all of this destruction that we are witnessing is related to the glaringly apparent economical gains of the very few at the expense of the many; and this is occurring at the level of the multinational central banking conglomerate who is controlling the national governments by buying their political leadership to advance their insane quest for real assets…like land, land resources, and people. The end result is one insane master world order with totalitarian rule. Otherwise known as a bunch of sick SOB’s…but maybe these control freaks transverse the clinical definition of mere psychopathy into some non-physical entity construct which might not even be definable at this time.
Yes…Thom Hartmann did address this issue several years ago but he plays the two-party system by demonizing the Republican GOP and promoting the Progressive Democrats which I do not condone. In my view both parties are different sides of the same coin since both ultimately serve the interests of the same central bankers. It is this centralized economic control of political systems in world nation states that is the source of totalitarian control which manifests as human economic enslavement, endless wars for profit, and the blatant corporate destruction of planet Earth. If humanity and earth are to survive, the tyrannical economic rule of the “elites” must be completely annihilated by destruction of the World Central Banking System. Thom Hartmann is not discussing the full panoramic view of the “Big Picture.”
Quite right. If only random acts of violence, staged accidents and ‘terror’ would strike the right targets. Journalists and innocent civilians seem to be the lone category of victims. Contrived to secure the rule of fear by the NWO.
The US spy agencies are spying for US corporations. They just haven’t been caught yet.
Yes. The spy agency of supremacy-obsessed country finds a way to enhance its supremacy over china and russia without getting caught. But because of the NSA’s strong morality of right and wrong it refrains from it? ———— Right!!!!
It’s not a future plan . It’s going on right now.
Spying on, infiltrating and disrupting the Block The Boat campaign seems like it would fit into Clapper’s definition of, “in an effort to aid America’s and our allies interests.” That is if those “interests” are exclusive to corporate interests rather than to citizen interests. Clapper and his monolithic gang of infiltrators might even be using “disrupting terror networks” as their definition or excuse for spying on and interfering with Block The Boat actions.
This piece really drives home the hypocritical nature of our government and officials in these bloated agencies. Publically they claim moral and ethical superiority compared to other countries but their actions, which is why every damn thing is classified these days, completely contradicts what they say publically. They are not fooling anyone and most of us I hope realize what lip service this is. And I would like to think the IC is trying to put the US at the top of the innovation ladder no matter how dirty the methods, on the grounds that they have good intentions but that is BS. It would be strictly to advance their own agendas and the 1% economic position in the world. Imperialism at its best huh!?
Michael Hirsh says they are indeed fooling “the rest of us.” The rest of us apparently includes everyone except for Glenn and a couple of other writers and readers of The Intercept. Um, you, I mean ‘you’ in the plural sense, be the judge.
There you go! Problem solved! Time to “move on.”
They (the IC) deserve credit for preparing for the possibility that “identity-based groups supplant nation-states,” as well as for at least trying to stave off fascism while leaving no stone unturned in “national defense.” There is no reason to think that some of the targeted companies are engaged in activities (and perhaps joint projects with their own host governments) that might be of interest to the IC. That said, the incentives for IC members to sell information to private U.S. interests will be insurmountable. So I don’t see at this point how we avoid a (further) slide into fascist cooperation between corporations and government in the U.S., and the pitfalls of that type of system will ultimately make us (the U.S.) weaker. This is a bureaucracy engaged in counterproductive self-perpetuation that will ruin everything for the rest of us as they continue to create enemies and undermine our way of life in an ill-conceived attempt to provide “safety.”
I think identity-based groups inevitably slide into self-destructive chaos without great effort to prevent otherwise. They require strong, strong leaders and eventual liberalization to survive, so I understand the reasoning but I am not so sure of the long-term threat.
Enjoyed your comment — thank you.
“I understand the reasoning but I am not so sure of the long-term threat.”
I agree here. Chaos is easy to create – whether done by the west with it’s “wars against terror;” or by those who are trying, just like the west, to create their own version of “how things should be” based on their own ideology.
In the end it takes forethought, planning, a shared desired end result, and a methodology to reach that end (do we use force or diplomacy; or bit of both? – again using forethought, not knee-jerk reactions), and finally the infrastructure of a modern society (truly representative government, public education, equitable laws, sanitation, health care, etc…) to sustain any long term viability for the efforts.
I think the contributors to Froomkin’s piece here ask many of the questions that need answers first in order to reach any kind of long term sustainability, but more importantly, they ask whether what is being considered should even be done in the first place:
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/09/04/media-challenging-arguments-war-baying-blood/
Unfortunately, both the west and the other groups vying for preeminence in the Middle East, or at least for a place on this planet for their ideological dream world are both dropping the ball – with the West letting it’s infrastructure and civil liberties deteriorate due to neglect and the false notion that “war is hell, we must sacrifice” – and the other groups and many existing nations (ISIS & Israel as examples) resort to brutality sanctioned by their ideological leaders, with the backing and help from the Wests irresponsible and thoughtless foreign policy.