(updated below [Tues.])
Gallup, 2000: “A new Gallup poll conducted November 13-15, 2000 finds that nearly seven out of 10 Americans (69%) believe that sending troops to Vietnam was a mistake.”
Gallup, 2013: “Ten years have passed since the United States and its allies invaded Iraq, and it appears the majority of Americans consider this a regrettable anniversary. Fifty-three percent of Americans believe their country ‘made a mistake sending troops to fight in Iraq’ and 42% say it was not a mistake.”
Gallup, 2014: “For the first time since the U.S. initially became involved in Afghanistan in 2001, Americans are as likely to say U.S. military involvement there was a mistake as to say it was not.”
New York Times, today: “The Obama administration is preparing to carry out a campaign against the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria that may take three years to complete, requiring a sustained effort that could last until after President Obama has left office, according to senior administration officials.”
CNN, today: “Americans are increasingly concerned that ISIS represents a direct terror threat, fearful that ISIS agents are living in the United States, according to a new CNN/ORC International poll. Most now support military action against the terrorist group.”
A few points:
(1) I’ve long considered this September, 2003 Washington Post poll to be one the most extraordinary facts about the post-9/11 era. It found that – almost 2 years after 9/11, and six months after the invasion of Iraq – “nearly seven in 10 Americans believe it is likely that ousted Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein was personally involved in the Sept. 11 attacks . . . . A majority of Democrats, Republicans and independents believe it’s likely Saddam was involved.”
Is it even possible to imagine more potent evidence of systemic media failure than that (or systemic success, depending on what you think the media’s goal is)? But in terms of crazed irrationality, how far away from that false belief is the current fear on the part of Americans that there are ISIS sleeper cells “living in the United States”?
(2) If the goal of terrorist groups is to sow irrational terror, has anything since the 9/11 attack been more successful than those two journalist beheading videos? It’s almost certainly the case that as recently as six months ago, only a minute percentage of the American public (and probably the U.S. media) had even heard of ISIS. Now, two brutal beheadings later, they are convinced that they are lurking in their neighborhoods, that they are a Grave and Unprecedented Threat (worse than al Qaeda!), and that military action against them is needed.
It’s as though ISIS and the U.S. media and political class worked in perfect unison to achieve the same goal here when it comes to American public opinion: fully terrorize them.
(3) Although Americans favor military action against ISIS, today’s above-cited CNN poll finds that – at least of now – most do not want ground troops in Iraq or Syria (“61%-38%, oppose placing U.S. soldiers on the ground in Iraq and Syria to combat the terrorist group”). But almost every credible expert has said that airstrikes, without troops, is woefully inadequate to achieve any of the stated goals. Other than further inflaming anti-American sentiment in the region and strengthening ISIS, what possible purpose can such airstrikes have? The answer given by much of the U.S. media, as FAIR documented, seems clear: to “flex muscles” and show “toughness”:

What kind of country goes around bombing people with no strategic purpose and with little motive other than to “flex muscles” and “show toughness”? This answer also seems clear: one that is deeply insecure about its ongoing ability to project strength (and one whose elites benefit in terms of power and profit from endless war).
(4) For those who favor air strikes: if, as most regional and military experts predict, it turns out that airstrikes are insufficient to seriously degrade ISIS, would you then favor a ground invasion? If you really believe that ISIS is a serious threat to the “homeland” and other weighty interests, how could you justify opposing anything needed to defeat them up to and including ground troops? And if you wouldn’t support that, isn’t that a compelling sign that you don’t really see them as the profound threat that one should have to see them as before advocating military action against them?
(5) For those who keep running around beating their chests talking about the imperative to “destroy ISIS”: will that take more or less time than it’s taken to “destroy the Taliban”?
Does it ever occur to such flamboyant warriors to ask why those sorts of groups enjoy so much support, and whether yet more bombing of predominantly Muslim countries – and/or flooding the region with more weapons – will bolster rather than subvert their strength? Just consider how a one-day attack in the U.S., 13 years ago, united most of the American population around the country’s most extreme militarists and unleashed an orgy of collective violence that is still not close to ending. Why does anyone think that constantly bringing violence to that part of the world will have a different effect there?
(6) When I began writing about politics in 2005, it was very common to hear the “chickenhawk” slur cast about: all as a means of arguing that able-bodied people who advocate war have the obligation to fight in those wars rather than risking other people’s lives to do so. Since January, 2009, I’ve almost never heard that phrase. How come? Does the obligation-to-fight apply now to those wishing to deploy military force to “destroy ISIS”?
(7) It’s easy to understand why beheading videos provoke such intense emotion: they’re savage and horrific to watch, by design. But are they more brutal than the constant, ongoing killing of civilians, including children, that the U.S. and its closest allies have been continuously perpetrating?
In 2012, for instance, Pakistani teenager Tariq Kahn attended an anti-drone meeting, and then days later, was “decapitated” by a U.S. missile – the high-tech version of beheading – and his 12-year-old cousin was also killed by that drone. Whether “intent” is one difference is quite debatable (see point 3), but the brutality is no less. It’s true that we usually don’t see that carnage, but the fact that it’s kept from the U.S. population doesn’t mean it disappears or becomes more palatable or less savage.
(8) Here’s how you know you live in an empire devoted to endless militarism: when a new 3-year war is announced and very few people seem to think the president needs anyone’s permission to start it (including Congress) and, more so, when the announcement – of a new multiple-year war – seems quite run-of-the-mill and normal.
(9) How long will we have to wait for the poll finding that most Americans “regret” having supported this new war in Iraq and Syria and view it as a “mistake”, as they prepare, in a frenzy of manufactured fear, to support the next proposed war?
UPDATE [Tues.]: In case you’re wondering how so many Americans have been led to embrace such fear-mongering tripe, consider the statement last week of Democratic Sen. Bill Nelson of Florida:
“This is a terrorist group the likes of which we haven’t seen before, and we better stop them now. It ought to be pretty clear when they start cutting off the heads of journalists and say they’re going to fly the black flag of ISIS over the White House that ISIS is a clear and present danger.”
They’re a “clear and present danger” because they threatened to “fly the black flag of ISIS over the White House.” It’s hard to believe the fear-mongering is anything but deliberate.
Photo: Raqqa Media Center of the Islamic State group/AP


BenjaminAP, the torture makes it impossible to respond to posts in a timely manner. But I did manage to read the article you referenced (Al Jazeera) in your post above. It was one of the most informative piece by Murtaza Hussein on the tragic events unfolding in Iraq and Syria today. Thank you for the information.
BenjaminAP, the torture unfortunately makes it impossible for me to respond to posts in a timely manner. But I did manage to read the article you referenced (Al Jazeera) in your post above, re: the DeBa’athification. It was one of the most informative piece by Murtaza Hussein on the tragic events unfolding in Iraq and Syria today. Thank you for the information.
@Pedinska
You mentioned in one of your comments that Afghanistan got “worse”. That is a very serious statement. However, you should pinpoint the areas that got worse before you or I can conclude that Afghanistan in general was better before the invasion. Or maybe you have been to Kabul University and the young students who can go to school now told you life was better for them under the Taliban. I am assuming that you went to Kandahar and the women in their 20s who are finally learning how to read and write told you their life is worse now. I am sure you have met several journalists from Tolo TV, Ariana TV and many other media outlets who support your statement by acknowledging that life got worse for them after the invasion. About doctors, nurses, street vendors in Khost, Mazar i Sharif, can they support your statement? You have definitely had a conversation with officials at the United Nations Refugee Agency to obtain a logical reason that explains why 5,7 million Afghan refugees went back to their country after the US invasion. NOBODY not even politicians can tell you that Afghanistan is as secure, developed and peaceful as Switzerland. However, you do not know what is going on if you believe Afghanistan got “worse”.
http://www.unhcr.org/pages/4f9016576.html
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26747712
@Pedinska
What is wrong with me? I live on planet Earth. It is very noble to want peace and a non violent world. Unfortunately, MLK’s or Gandhi’s strategies do not work in certain circumstances. Review your books about Middle Eastern history. Stopping all business and military relationships with the authoritarian regimes (and convince the Russians and the Chinese to do the same) would not stop these criminal groups from going after us. Their motivation is deep and close to 2000 years old. Haven’t you noticed their “Jihad” kills more Muslims than Westerners?
@Pedinska
You mentioned in one of your comments that Afghanistan got “worse”. That is a very serious statement. However, you should pinpoint the areas that got worse before you or I can conclude that Afghanistan in general was better before the invasion. Or maybe you have been to Kabul University and the young students who can go to school now told you life was better for them under the Taliban. I am assuming that you went to Kandahar and the women in their 20s who are finally learning how to read and write told you their life is worse now. I am sure you have met several journalists from Tolo TV, Ariana TV and many other media outlets who support your statement by acknowledging that life got worse for them after the invasion. About doctors, nurses, street vendors in Khost, Mazar i Sharif, can they support your statement? You have definitely had a conversation with officials at the United Nations Refugee Agency to obtain a logical reason that explains why 5,7 million Afghan refugees went back to their country after the US invasion. No journalists, military commanders, or even politicians can tell you that Afghanistan is as secure, developed and peaceful as Switzerland. However, you do not know what is going on if you believe Afghanistan got “worse”.
http://www.unhcr.org/pages/4f9016576.html
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26747712
@ Pedinska
Yes, I have been to the Middle East multiple times. While part of your defense is to check my spelling, which is a pathetic strategy in this forum, my opinion is not only based on news reports and articles, but also on my experience interacting with clerics, tribal leaders, conservative and liberal men and women I have met over many years. I have been interacting with them for years in their own language. So, I do have the ability to recognize those who really understand how complicated this area is. I am very familiar with their culture, their religion and their political system. However, I beg you not to take my words. Go and meet them yourself. Find the tribes in SA, Qatar, UAE…that believe in freedom of expression, religion, association. Share with us whether the main tribes in those countries are against or for the tribes who are in power. By the way, are you able to spell Iraq in the local language? Are you able to pronounce it or maybe write it in the local language? Apparently for you spelling Iraq in a foreign language is a proof of knowledge of this old and sophisticated society, then we should pursue this debate in the Iraqis’ language. Let me know when you are ready.
@Pedinska
You mentioned in one of your comments that Afghanistan got “worse”. That is a very serious statement. However, you should pinpoint the areas that got worse before you or I can conclude that Afghanistan in general was better before the invasion. Or maybe you have been to Kabul University and the young students who can go to school now told you life was better for them under the Taliban. I am assuming that you went to Kandahar and the women in their 20s who are finally learning how to read and write told you their life is worse now. I am sure you have met several journalists from Tolo TV, Ariana TV and many other media outlets who support your statement. About doctors, nurses, street vendors in Khost, Mazar i Sharif, can they support your statement? You have definitely had a conversation with officials at the United Nations Refugee Agency to obtain a logical reason that explains why 5,7 million Afghan refugees went back to their country after the US invasion. NOBODY not even politicians can tell you that Afghanistan is as secure, developed and peaceful as Switzerland. However, you do not know what is going on if you believe Afghanistan got “worse”.
http://www.unhcr.org/pages/4f9016576.html
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26747712
Where was this media outrage against Darfur? If you want proof this is war propaganda, then how come we didn’t do air strikes in Darfur? People got raped and massacred there, and the likes of Clinton and Kerry talked about offering aid. Violence from IS, has ties to the invasion of Iraq, and the destabilizing of the region, I think Mr. Greenwald makes a valid point in regards to air strikes cause more harm and resentment towards the West than good.
@ Pedinska
Yes, I have been in the Middle East multiple times. While part of your defense is to check my spelling, ( which is a pathetic strategy in this forum), my opinion is not only based on news reports and articles, but mostly on my experience with clerics, tribal leaders, conservative and liberal men and women I have met over many years. However, I beg you not to take my words for it. Go and meet them yourself. Again, find me the tribes in Saudi Arabia, Qatar, UAE…who believe in freedoms of expression, religion, association. Share with us whether the main tribes in those countries are against or for the tribes who are in power. I have been able to communicate with them for years in their own language. So, I do have the ability to recognize those who really understand how complicated this area is as I am very familiar with their culture, their religion, and their political system. By the way are you able to spell Iraq in the local language? About writing it? About pronouncing it properly? Since you are so obsessed about my English, maybe we should pursue this debate in Arabic to allow the people in that area to understand how westerners view the actual situation. Just let me know when you are ready.
You mentioned that Afghanistan got “worse”. That is a very serious statement. Have you been to Kabul University to meet the young students? If you have, is that what they told you? Now they can go to school, then it is worse than it was before the invasion? Have you been to Kandahar and met women who are in their 20s and are finally learning how to read and write? Is that what they told you? About Tolo TV, Ariana TV? Any of their journalists told you it was better for them before the invasion? About the kids who are finally going to clinics, built in Khost? Their parents told you it is “worse” now? About the United Nation Refugee Agency? Did you ask them to explain why 5,7 millions Afghans went back to their country since the invasion?
http://www.unhcr.org/pages/49e486eb6.html
No journalists, no military commanders, no street vendors not even politicians in Afghanistan can tell you the country is as secure, developed and peaceful as Switzerland. However, whoever states that Afghanistan in “worse” than it was before the invasion does not understand what is going on.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26747712
Even if you stop all business and military transactions with these authoritarian regimes and you manage through a miracle to convince the Russians and the Chinese to do the same you will still have these criminal groups ready and willing to kill fellow Muslims and then kill Westerners. Guantanamo, US bases and oil contracts would not be part of their recruitment tools, but our way of life, our freedom and their dedication to their religion would be. They have been doing this years before Columbus came to the Americas!
Check a few Kuwaiti freely elected lawmakers’ view on freedom of religion:
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/us-silent-top-saudi-cleric-s-call-destroy-churches
Moreover, have you reviewed the consequences of not doing business with those authoritarian regimes? About the price of oil that would dramatically increase? Who would subsidize poor countries that rely heavily on oil? Because oil companies would not be the losers, poor countries would be. Mr Greenwald knows this, but he chooses to ignore this part of the story in order to simplify the policies of the “Empire”.
What is wrong with me? I live on planet Earth. You have noble dreams, you do want peace, but the reality is MLK or Gandhi’s strategies are not always efficient in some circumstances.
@ Pedinska
Yes, I have been multiple times in the Middle East. While part of your defense is to check my spelling, ( which is a pathetic strategy in this forum), my opinion is not only based on news reports and articles, but mostly on my experience with clerics, tribal leaders, conservative and liberal men and women I have met over many years. However, I beg you not to take my words for it. Go and meet them yourself. Again, find me the tribes in Saudi Arabia, Qatar, UAE…who believe in freedoms of expression, religion, association. Share with us whether the main tribes in those countries are against or for the tribes who are in power. I have been able to communicate with them for years in their own language. So, I do have the ability to recognize those who really understand how complicated this area is as I am very familiar with their culture, their religion, and their political system. By the way are you able to spell Iraq in the local language? About writing it? About pronouncing it properly? Since you are so obsessed about my English, maybe we should pursue this debate in Arabic to allow the people in that area to understand how westerners view the actual situation. Just let me know when you are ready.
You mentioned that Afghanistan got “worse”. That is a very serious statement. Have you been to Kabul University to meet the young students? If you have, is that what they told you? Now they can go to school, then it is worse than it was before the invasion? Have you been to Kandahar and met women who are in their 20s and are finally learning how to read and write? Is that what they told you? About Tolo TV, Ariana TV? Any of their journalists told you it was better for them before the invasion? About the kids who are finally going to clinics, built in Khost? Their parents told you it is “worse” now? About the United Nation Refugee Agency? Did you ask them to explain why 5,7 millions Afghans went back to their country since the invasion?
http://www.unhcr.org/pages/49e486eb6.html
No journalists, no military commanders, no street vendors not even politicians in Afghanistan can tell you the country is as secure, developed and peaceful as Switzerland. However, whoever states that Afghanistan in “worse” than it was before the invasion does not understand what is going on.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26747712
Even if you stop all business and military transactions with these authoritarian regimes and you manage through a miracle to convince the Russians and the Chinese to do the same you will still have these criminal groups ready and willing to kill fellow Muslims and then kill Westerners. Guantanamo, US bases and oil contracts would not be part of their recruitment tools, but our way of life, our freedom and their dedication to their religion would be. They have been doing this years before Columbus came to the Americas!
Check a few Kuwaiti freely elected lawmakers’ view on freedom of religion:
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/us-silent-top-saudi-cleric-s-call-destroy-churches
Moreover, have you reviewed the consequences of not doing business with those authoritarian regimes? About the price of oil that would dramatically increase? Who would subsidize poor countries that rely heavily on oil? Because oil companies would not be the losers, poor countries would be. Mr Greenwald knows this, but he chooses to ignore this part of the story in order to simplify the policies of the “Empire”.
What is wrong with me? I live on planet Earth. You have noble dreams, you do want peace, but the reality is MLK or Gandhi’s strategies are not always efficient in some circumstances.
Also, they are getting me drunk again and I’m turning into a beached fucking whale. I hate this as I was in lean shape two years ago and was very able when they took over my nervous system for thistle body control. You are a fucker I hate you for this. Fuck you you are responsible for my torture and you are a sick bastard. I fought for your freedom of speech and you FUCKED ME UP THE ASS!!! Fuck you.
Fuck you glenn. I have seen more hell than one person can imagine. You are a fucking baby. You have no idea. Your consistent whining is exactly what I oppose. I am tired of f it heating a war that does not include me. You are as evil as anyone you claim to be. Lauren
OT: The world desperately needs The Intercept to report on Ukraine (and not because of the ‘Omidyar controversy’). @asluhn of The Guardian/Foreign Policy would be a good candidate – young, skeptical, pretty fair and a talented writer. Western media has fed the public a tissue of lies, half-truths and disinformation from the start of the crisis – to the extent that it has been a revelation of journalistic dishonesty for many around the world. Only recently, when Kiev’s anti-democratic atrocities became so sustained, numerous and blatant that the UN, the ICRC and the OCSE finally had to start admitting reality (to the discomfort of the US and the EU), was there a slight adjustment in the narrative. Good chroniclers on Twitter include @gbazov and @billmon1. Moon of Alabama and Vineyard of the Saker are pretty decent. But what the world needs now (besides love sweet love) is a ‘legitimate’ western media outlet willing to tell the truth about what the US and the EU are trying to do, as they attack Russia via Ukraine and Syria, playing The Great Game. Because the stakes for humanity are high.
I hope this comment gets through. Thanks.
Bill Nelson would have the limbs of a child served up for his dinner on a golden platter. The real problem is the people who vote for war criminals. We could have had Kucinich or Nader instead. Democrats have checked their honor and morality at the door to stand firmly behind the sausage makers.
@Pedinska
Yes, I have been multiple times in the Middle East. While part of your defense is to check my spelling, ( which is a pathetic strategy in this forum), my opinion is not only based on news reports and articles, but mostly on my experience with clerics, tribal leaders, conservative and liberal men and women I have met over many years. However, I beg you not to take my words for it. Go and meet them yourself. Again, find me the tribes in Saudi Arabia, Qatar, UAE…who believe in freedoms of expression, religion, association. Share with us whether the main tribes in those countries are against or for the tribes who are in power. I have been able to communicate with them for years in their own language. So, I do have the ability to recognize those who really understand how complicated this area is as I am very familiar with their culture, their religion, and their political system. By the way are you able to spell Iraq in the local language? About writing it? About pronouncing it properly? Since you are so obsessed about my English, maybe we should pursue this debate in Arabic to allow the people in that area to understand how westerners view the actual situation. Just let me know when you are ready.
You should know better than just pasting other “solutions” without analyzing them.
You mentioned that Afghanistan got “worse”. That is a very serious statement. Have you been to Kabul University to meet the young students? If you have, is that what they told you? Now they can go to school, then it is worse than it was before the invasion? Have you been to Kandahar and met women who are in their 20s and are finally learning how to read and write? Is that what they told you? About Tolo TV, Ariana TV? Any of their journalists told you it was better for them before the invasion? About the kids who are finally going to clinics built in Khost? Their parents told you it is “worse” now? About the United Nation Refugee Agency? Did you ask them to explain why 5,7 millions Afghans went back to their country since the invasion?
http://www.unhcr.org/pages/49e486eb6.html
No journalists, no military commanders, no street vendors not even politicians in Afghanistan can tell you the country is as secure, developed and peaceful as Switzerland. However, whoever states that Afghanistan in “worse” than it was before the invasion does not understand what is going on.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26747712
Even if you stop all business and military transactions with these authoritarian regimes and you manage through a miracle to convince the Russians and the Chinese to do the same you will still have these criminal groups ready and willing to kill fellow Muslims and then kill Westerners. Guantanamo, US bases and oil contracts would not be part of their recruitment tools, but our way of life, our freedom and their dedication to their religion would be. They have been doing this years before Columbus came to the Americas!
Check a few Kuwaiti freely elected lawmakers’ view on freedom of religion:
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/us-silent-top-saudi-cleric-s-call-destroy-churches
Moreover, have you reviewed the consequences of not doing business with those authoritarian regimes? About the price of oil that would dramatically increase? Who would subsidize poor countries that rely heavily on oil? Because oil companies would not be the losers, poor countries would be. Mr Greenwald knows this, but he chooses to ignore this part of the story in order to simplify the policies of the “Empire”.
What is wrong with me? I live on planet Earth. You have noble dreams, you do want peace, but the reality is MLK or Gandhi’s strategies are not always efficient in some circumstances.
Unlike the US invasion of Iraq, the decision to eradicate ISIS is entirely appropriate. Any group that seeks to force sharia (or any religious legal system) upon others should be stamped out without hesitation. Such groups are a waste of good carbon.
Settle down, Rambo..
Do you think military force should be used against ISIS?
Yes, as long the ‘force’ in question is provided by the Arab states (.. and their 54,000,000,000 military expenditures) whose territories are affected by said group(s).
@ Suave
That is a very good point.
Now, how would you convince a Shia majority country (Iraq) to allow Sunni dominated countries such as Saudi Arabia, Jordan…to send troops in the territory? Remember how long the conflict between Shias and Sunnis have been going on.
How would you convince the Sunnis tribes to move away from ISIS if you have Iranian troops who are Shias fighting in their areas?
How would you convince the Kurds to let Turkish troops in their areas to fight ISIS?
I also have to add that you have to find quick and efficient answers to these questions if you are a world leader because ISIS is moving forward, killing thousands of civilians, Muslims and non Muslims while you are debating your options.
‘So Little Compassion’: James Foley’s Parents Say Officials Threatened Family Over Ransom
http://abcnews.go.com/International/government-threatened-foley-family-ransom-payments-mother-slain/story?id=25453963
Commenter lib(ertarian) makes some interesting observations via twitter:
What was it Obama said when he was criticized about being photographed golfing in Martha’s Vineyard immediately following his speech about Foley’s death? Something about “the optics”?
The optics of this thing are more out of whack than he realizes.
Well they will just have to stand in line behind the Al Qaeda sleeper cells just like everyone else and wait for them to wake up first.
The protocols of the learned elders of zion is the blueprint for the new world order. UNIVERSAL WAR and GOVERNMENT OF FEAR and two of the prominent protocols by which the world is enslaved to the too big to fail banks and war profiteers that run the globalist capitalist dictatorship.
Yes, I’m sure Dick Cheney and his christian cohort from PNAC never went anywhere without their copies.
Islam is a Jewish plot against Christians. ;p
There seems to be a logical impasse here.
1) Why drop bombs on another country unless you are at war with it?
2) Why fight a war only from the air when it is impossible to win any war without ground forces?
3) If you do dot have ground forces deployed are you actually fighting a war?
4) And if you are not at war, how can dropping bombs on another country not be considered a terrorist act?
5) Consider who the terrorists here are? But also consider that the answer does not have to be mutually exclusive: there can be terrorism on BOTH sides
Consider WWII. Germany carpet bombs Britain – one of many terrorist acts perpetrated by Adolph Hitler. However Winston Churchill reciprocated by carpet bombing German cities and other German held territory (France et. al.) -this action also meets the “definition” of terrorism. In this example Western history seems to accept that “two wrongs make a right”; something we have all been taught is not true. Why is Winston Churchill not considered a terrorist? The old adage “History is written by the victors” come to mind.
1) why drop bomb on another country unless you are at war with it?
In Iraq, the US is dropping bombs at the request of the elected government of this sovereign state. The government is not targeted. The bombs aim at destroying another entity that makes it clear it wants to kill innocent civilians whom the government cannot protect without foreign support. In Syria, the bombs, which has not been dropped yet, will officially target ISIS, not the illegitimate government of Syria. The government of Syria has made clear multiple times that it wants to destroy ISIS, but it does not have the capability to do so.
2) Why fight at war only from the air when it is impossible to win any war without ground forces?
Kosovo would not be a good example. However, there are ground troops in this particular case: Kurds, Iraqi soldiers and militiamen, and US special forces. Sometimes, an infantry division is not the most efficient strategy to win a war.
3) if you do not have ground forces deployed are you actually fighting a war? YES. Under international law even a naval blockade may be an Act of War.
http://opil.ouplaw.com/view/10.1093/law:epil/9780199231690/law-9780199231690-e252
4) If you are not at war, how can dropping bombs on another country not be considered a terrorist act?
a) refer to answer 1). b) ISIS has 49 Turkish hostages. Would it be a terrorist act if Turkey decides to bomb ISIS positions at the request of the Iraqi government in order to free those hostages?
Your final question is more about politics than about international laws. Therefore, I can only give you my opinion. The example you provided seems to relate to the death of civilians. So, in this particular case it is a bad example as US forces specifically target ISIS positions with advanced missiles. While there are multiple evidence that ISIS wants to kill civilians, mostly religious minorities and Shia Muslims, there is absolutely no evidence that the US government is targeting civilians with its devastating Air Force.
So you gonna volunteer
It’s rare to find a delusion born of such blatant contradictions and obvious historical amnesia expressed with brevity.
So? What is your point? Is not factually correct that the Government of Iraq officially requested military help from Russia, USA and France?
You are outrage because the USA and many other countries do business with authoritarian regimes like SA. What if we stop doing business with them? Would it be a better policy? It seems that you are the one swimming in the sea of contradictions, because you are now outrage at the sanctions imposed on Saddam Hussein, who was leading an authoritarian regime. However, I do understand your reaction when so many civilians died. What I do not understand is your shock at the consequences of the policies you support. Since, our debate is not really moving forward, then allow me to ask two simple questions:
At what point should military force be used against a State or an organization?
Do you believe force should be used against ISIS?
…and it’s a real treat to see such blatant self-contradictions projected so clearly.
Hitler bombed Britain indiscriminately after the British started bombing Germany indiscriminately.Fact.And Winnie is held to be a terrorist by the descendants of the objects of his terror,which obviously,you or your antecedents weren’t.
I read yesterday that the Germans put the Jewish Palestine British troops they captured in POW camps and didn’t abuse them.The narrative is flawed.
Take a deep breath!! If my comments make you so angry, feel free to ignore them.
Glen,
You correctly point out the fact that in 2003, 70% of Americans believed that Saddam Hussein was involved in 9/11. You also call it “extraordinary”, with which I concur 100%, pointing out that such a stat is a failure/(success) of the media.
Unfortunately, you appear to be a victim of the same media BS when you refer to the two videos purporting to show beheadings of journalists, stating “they’re savage and horrific to watch, by design”. Have you actually seen them? They are so obviously fake that even the Telegraph of England strongly suggests that (at least) the first was such. But your article states AS FACT that the two beheadings took place.
This acceptance of BS makes you a part of the problem. For me, that’s a shame, because I have read your work for many years. I am disappointed in you – you ought to be more careful than that.
I don’t make any claim to know who produced those videos, or what the ultimate purpose in doing so was, but I do know when someone is trying to fool me, and those videos are a clear case of such behaviour.
David Coventry.
The push to reenter the Middle East in a new war has two powerful advocates. The oil companies who want to protect “our” oil and their profits. And the rest of the military-defense industry complex who made a fortune with the Iraq and Afghanistan wars.
I tend to agree with Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov – the Obama administration intends to go after Assad primarily. I have never heard of such an ill-conceived strategy.
http://rt.com/news/186356-lavrov-syria-bombing-west/
” De-Ba’athification (Arabic: ?????? ??? ??????) refers to a Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA) policy outlined in CPA Order 1 which entered into force on 16 May 2003.[1] The policy’s goal was to remove the Ba’ath Party’s influence in the new Iraqi political system.[1] To accomplish its goal, the policy declared that all public sector employees affiliated with the Ba’ath Party were to be removed from their positions and to be banned from any future employment in the public sector.[1] The policy was highly controversial among US academics, institutions, government, military, and international media and debate outlets.[2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9] The policy under the Coalition Provisional Authority was officially rescinded on 28 June 2004 as part of the transfer of sovereignty to the Iraqi Interim Government on 30 June 2004.[10] Critics of the policy, however, claim that the policy continued under the new authority of the Iraqi Interim Government, Governing Council, and later under the elected Iraqi Parliament.[11] Proponents of the policy contend that the policy effectively cleansed Iraqi society of Ba’athist influence, facilitating the creation of a democratic Iraqi government.[5][8] Critics argue that the policy was not only undemocratic, but also a significant factor in the deteriorating security situation throughout Iraq.[7][12][13][14][15] ”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De-Ba'athification
Looking for the roots of ISIS? Is it unreasonable to suggest starting with the De-Ba’athification Program outlined above? There are possibly other factors as well but this has to rank highest in the list. The vast majority of the Ba’ath Party members were Sunnis. Politicians. Law makers. High and low ranking military personnel. Government workers in all sectors. Intelligence agency personnel of all ranks. Etc.
After the invasion, the De-Ba’athification program saw most of them imprisoned. Abu Ghraibed and tortured. Killed. Or exiled. But those who survived the purge, are most likely a critical part of ISIS today. To have planned and implemented the De-Ba’athification program, one needed to either have incredible short-sightedness, or must have deliberately intended or expected for the likes of ISIS to emerge down the road, if the latter intention serves some other unknown objectives. Because, no matter how hideous a political party may have been, SPREADING DEMOCRACY AND FREEDOM imposes upon the ‘spreaders’, higher moral imperatives. Banning people from any public employment in the future is to sign an economic death warrant and amounts to begging them and their families to dare find alternatives to survival, including in ideological landscapes too ghastly to contemplate.
Apartheid was horrendous, but even Africans knew better than to even entertain thoughts of De-Afrikaanerization without the dire ramifications coming back to haunt the nation in ways that would make apartheid look like a picnic in the park. But most importantly still, if you truly fight for democracy, as some claim the invasion was for (or for WMD or Saddam, take your pick) the best way for nation-building (assuming this was even a desired outcome) is not to alienate your former nemesis but to embrace them instead as you begin your march along a brand new path. It is high ground. It is the right thing to do.
What Iraq may need in the end, is a Truth and Reconciliation Commission. It would be different. It would be frought with all manner of obstacles. Because I refuse to assume idiocy on the part of any ethnic group, the Arabs of Iraq – all of them – would easily see the benefits of such a process even if it fell short of meeting some of its goals. The seeds alone that the process would have sown would make it more than worth a try.
P/S
The torture continues with squadrons occurring more often since the last two weeks. But I shall continue to exercise my right to be until they kill me. I won’t be the first they kill and won’t be the last.
Yes. De-Ba’athification remains the elephant in the room. The present consequences were anticipated by its architects as a means toward destabilization – balkinization of the region. This is the logical extension of Sykes-Picot. And the Obama administration’s prosecution has been more or less seamless. America is rogue.
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2013/05/2013567200437919.html
“What is the solution to the ISIS crisis?”
Sometimes you have to ask the right question.
The US cannot solve the ISIS crisis which it has helped to create, but it can make it worse.
ISIS would not exist without the US “war on terror”, which engenders more terror.
The choices for the US are to either make a bad mistake worse or to not make it worse; solving it is not an option for the US.
So, you are saying the US should not get involved? Okay, let’s place the US away from that conflict. So what is the solution then because ISIS will keep moving forward massacring innocent civilians?
Yes, the US should wait, whats the rush? The US has other means to deal with ISIL in the interim. The US and Israel massacre more innocent cililians then ISIL has, we manufacture and perpetuatue the hatred… Also, somethings not right about timing of the beheading videos, so I am skeptical and want to learn more about ISIL before judging. Dont you?
I have been reflecting on this thirteenth anniversary of 9/11 and its impact on the U.S. all week.
I have concluded that 9/11 was not about religion.
It is interesting that on the eve of 9/11, President Obama gave a speech last night outlining his plan to “Degrade, and ultimately destroy ISIS through a comprehensive and sustained counter-terrorism strategy.” He went on to talk about an open ended campaign of air strikes, bombing, training and arming rebels and limited protection of American interests. It illustrates how ‘comprehensive and sustained’ conflict continues to rage in the world today.
But that conflict is not about religion.
On September 11th, 1893 (121 years ago today), Swami Vivekananda spoke at the World Parliament of Religions here in the U.S and said, “I am proud to belong to a religion which has taught the world both tolerance and universal acceptance. We believe not only in universal toleration, but we accept all religions as true.” I wonder how much ‘comprehensive and sustained’ conflict could have been avoided in the history of the world if all religions accepted all other religions as being legitimate and true?
It is important and relevant today on 9/11 that religions seek to keep their message simple and avoid entrenched, extreme or exacting messages. These messages cause war and ‘comprehensive and sustained’ conflict. Not good. Young people particularly align and resonate with a simple message: stand for peace, stand against tyranny. Religion should be busy with the big stuff, clearly standing against tyranny, occupation, poverty, violence, sexism and the degrading of human dignity. I have learned that America is very religious. America, in its open ended pursuit to oppose tyranny and violence must take care to ensure that they themselves are not tyrannical or violent.
Al Queda, and now ISIS, are not driven by religious zeal. These extreme radicals distort and militarize Islam to serve their own selfish ends. Religion is used to justify, recruit, legitimate and motivate many of its fighters in the slaughter of civilians, savage use of beheadings, killing of innocent Muslims and Christians and on 9/11, an extreme and intolerable act of terror that gripped our hearts. This is not Islam. This is not religion.
I believe a counter-message would be a powerful and valuable counter-terrorism measure.
A strong counter-message would be a strategy that ALL religions and nations could unite behind.
Currently Al Queda and ISIS are able to tap in to the minds and hearts of young men (aged 18-25, poor, under-educated) around the world who are feeling moral outrage, isolated, disaffection, peer pressure, searching for a new identity and for a sense of meaning, purpose and belonging. Terrorist groups are smart, strategic and well-funded, using the media and social media to connect with these vulnerable youngsters and unite them around a single destructive message that channels their pain and their actions, ‘It’s their fault. Kill them.’
I believe religious leaders could unite and reach out to these youngsters with a united and comprehensive strategy to build bridges that bring meaning, purpose and belonging around a message of peace and to take a deliberate stand against violence.
As Benjamin Franklin said, ‘An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.’
On my Facebook wall I am posting messages of peace today from all religions. On this anniversary of 9/11, urge your religious leaders, or any community leaders, to reach out, not to their congregations, but to disenchanted youngsters, particularly young men (aged 18-25, poor, under-educated) in our community and begin to listen, learn and love them. This is where we can all begin our own counter-terrorism effort right in our own back yard.
This is what I will be doing today to mark the anniversary of 9/11, starting with my own son.
We have the guns, we have the planes, we are 500 million fighting back, and we will still be here after this war and the next. ‘Empire of the Sun’ movie 1987.
“Americans are increasingly concerned that ISIS represents a direct terror threat, fearful that ISIS agents are living in the United States, according to a new CNN/ORC International poll. Most now support military action against the terrorist group…………”
Anddd….. from the actual text of this CNN “report”:
“But a majority of Americans, 61%-38%, oppose placing U.S. soldiers on the ground in Iraq and Syria to combat the terrorist group.
Even as Americans support military action against ISIS, they still want Obama to seek authority from Congress before taking any action. More than 7 in 10 Americans think Obama should ask Congress for the ability to strike ISIS militarily. And 8 in 10 Americans support Congress approving military force against ISIS.”
The current opinion spread is a testament to the power of propaganda, and ignorance of what “airstrikes” really entail. Most of the people in favor of bombing runs shit themselves silly when a transformer blows at a nearby substation; they have no inkling of what it is that they’re “approving” of. Even so, public approval is pretty damn weak at this point. The people who are panting for war are almost exclusively members of our media/Beltway elite. And those who stand to make bank off it all of course.
Speaking of whom………… are any of you eager beavers at The Intercept looking to do any research-i-journalism stuff about that oversight dodging natsec contractor “Native Corporation” you reported on earlier this week? Dollars to donuts they aren’t the only boys who’ve happened onto that clever little dodge.
“How many more times will Americans fall for war propaganda of their government?”
Answer: Pretty much every time. It happens, because of how the US (western) society is structured. Greed and wastefulness are the driving factors, a totally corrupted society. Also many poor are so greedy in the USA. The USA wants more of everything than anybody else and they do not want to share. That is why they love to fall for the hoaxes of evil Russians or bad Al Qaida. It gives them a cheap excuse for their overconsumption of resources looted from the rest of the world.
There are 2 sorts of American looters/voters:
1. The group, who says afterwards: “Sry, it was wrong, but all loot is gone now.” – and then go loot again = Democrats
2. “You are too black/Latino/weak/old/sick/disabled, we do you a favor by stealing from you.” = Republicans
And of course the Americans, who understand, do not vote for the “smaller” evil, change their lifestyle and not want to support new wars.
“a totally corrupted society. Also many poor are so greedy in the USA.”
This distinguishes us from the rest of humanity…….how? You’ve described the human condition, not specifically the “American condition”. Find somewhere else to preen and strut, would you?
“How many more times will Americans fall for war propaganda of their government?”
Answer: Pretty much every time. It happens, because of how the US (western) society is structured. Greed and wastefulness are the driving factors, a totally corrupted society. Also many poor are so greedy in the USA. The USA wants more of everything than anybody else and they do not want to share. That is why they love to fall for the hoaxes of evil Russians or bad Al Qaida. It gives them a cheap excuse for their overconsumption of resources looted from the rest of the world.
There are 2 sorts of American looters/voters:
1. The group, who says afterwards: “Sry, it was wrong, but all loot is gone now.” – and then go loot again = Democrats
2. “You are too black/Latino/weak/old/sick/disabled, we do you a favor by stealing from you.” = Republicans
And of course the Americans, who understand, do not vote for the “smaller” evil, change their lifestyle and not want to support new wars.
A bombing campaign in this situation is nothing more than another huge gift to the arms industry. It’s the same old technique in a different time, but the result will be the same: Devastated cities; untold innocent lives lost or ruined forever; refugees and all of their grim prospects for survival. Add to that the hatred of the U.S. that the bombing causes and the loss of respect we experience world-wide by using unnecessary and ineffective approaches to terrorism.
These extremist groups will just keep popping up until the U.S. stops killing people in the Middle East, stops meddling in the affairs of the countries of the region and
stops supporting dictators. Sometimes, I get the feeling that that’s just the way the powers that be want it.
THE CRIMINALLY INSANE WANT MORE WAR, MORE DEATH AND MORE DESTRUCTION
How many times will sincerely good people fall for the lies, deceptions, manipulation, and evil doings of men only seeking THEIR personal gain. Gain at the COST, human sacrifice and the blood of their children. These good people are from all over the planet, but all these sadly all too stupid people, are again willing to allow this contrived wars to happen, over and over and over again.
How many are disgusted with those media dogs of war, example CNN, as they make the propaganda case for more war. Talking heads, talking to talking heads, about the need for more war, and for who? The bankster$, the elite familie$, the dictator$, the corporation$, the crime familie$, the royal$, the psychopath$, the heartle$$, the soule$$, the hater$, the raceist$, the fanatic$, and they exclude the common man, woman and child of our human family. WE don’t count. We have no say, they say. WE are to do what we are told, with no questions asked. WE are to believe these lying, unethical, immoral, paid propagandists because they are in control of the elite banker controlled TV.
The forces of chaos, destruction and evil are found on all sides of these financially profitable wars upon humanity.
When will humanity tell these thugs, NO MORE! WE ARE DONE!
YOUR WAYS ARE THE WAYS OF THE CRIMINALLY INSANE!
YOUR SYSTEM OF CONTROL IS OVER!
YOU ALL WILL BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR YOUR ACTIONS!
THERE WILL BE NO PLACE TO HIDE!
David, I could not have said it better myself. I just hope I am still around to see the revolution.
Thank you. This needed to be put on paper, comments and all. What do we do? Send copies to every single person you know or know of. We must stop this. How that happens will come out of making this knowledge common. Thank you.
Send copies to every single person you know or know of.
I do a good amount of exactly that. It’s the only way to counteract the power of the MSM, which primarily serve the aggrandizement of their corporo-governmental masters with their megaphone.
Interestingly enough, since 2005 when I first began sharing Greenwald’s and others’ writing, I’ve only had one request to be taken off the email list. One. I’m sure he wasn’t the only person who resented being informed, but he was the only one who had big enough balls to tell me to my face. I’ve had tons of people than me and even ask explicitly to be put on the list because they value being informed and have been shocked at how ill-served they have been by the sources they most often encounter in the media sphere.
As Ray McGovern said: there are many in our gov’t that think what’s good for Israel is good for US. I don’t mind that opinion but it does bother me that these people are in our gov’t and pursuing those goals. Pickup trucks and comandeered weapons and we are shaking in our boots? C’mon now people. Our military is so god awful bad that even without its use it is bankrupting this country and Chertoff, Feith, Perle, Abrams, Nuland, Kissinger, Netanyahu, Cheney and wife Lynne who sits on BOD of Lockheed Martin the Bush family ala Carlyle group and all those who let 9/11 happen, couldn’t be more satisfied to sack the treasury and continue savaging the middle east. We need to save the earth not keep this stupidity going.
On the content of the article, I believe that a society that aggressively stifles authentic and meaningful journalism often creates it’s own versions of ‘truths and facts’ of events. These in turn become the building blocks of narratives used to justify actions including invasion of Iraq for example. Images of barbarism BY THE OTHER GUY often come in handy in these public opinion management endeavours. These narratives will be repeated often enough by both duped parties as well as by the architects that they soon become believable as when most Americans believed wrongly that Iraq or Saddam had something to do with 911. But social psychologists working with public information management teams and intelligence and political and military planners would be amiss if they failed TO SHAPE the national response to the very narratives they throw out there. Failure to shape public response makes for poor mass information control. So despite the Gulf of Tonkin lies, public opinion would be manipulated to see a repeat: the invasion of Iraq. And the public is now being readied for another. And another. Until as Baron Sacha Cohen in Borat said, every last lizard in the desert sands is killed.
Of course contradictions, paradoxes and absurdities such as the one pointed out by this article regarding fighting Isis in Syria in order to eh… eh… save Asad we have been fighting through proxies so that we can eh… eh… fight him later. Better. Oh, never mind…
The $5 Trillion War on Terror
http://nation.time.com/2011/06/29/the-5-trillion-war-on-terror/
`p-ska..
[snip]
The report states:
“The Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts, taken together, will be the most expensive wars in US history—totaling somewhere between $4 trillion and $6 trillion. This includes long-term medical care and disability compensation for service members, veterans and families, military replenishment and social and economic costs. The largest portion of that bill is yet to be paid.”
It asserts:
“Another major share of the long-term costs of the wars comes from paying off trillions of dollars in debt incurred as the US government failed to include their cost in annual budgets and simultaneously implemented sweeping tax cuts for the rich. In addition, huge expenditures are being made to replace military equipment used in the two wars. The report also cites improvements in military pay and benefits made in 2004 to counter declining recruitment rates as casualties rose in the Iraq war.”
The authors of this report have warned that the legacy of decisions taken during the Iraq and Afghanistan wars would dominate future federal budgets for decades to come.
According to the Harvard University report, some 1.56 million US troops—56 per cent of all Afghanistan and Iraq veterans—were receiving medical treatment at Veterans Administration facilities and would be granted benefits for the rest of their lives.
It reveals:
“One out of every two veterans from Iraq and Afghanistan has already applied for permanent disability benefits. The official figure of 50,000 American troops “wounded in action” vastly underestimates the real human costs of the two US wars. One-third of returning veterans are being diagnosed with mental health issues—suffering from anxiety, depression, and/or post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD).”
The report notes that in addition, over a quarter of a million troops have suffered traumatic brain injuries (TBI), which, in many cases, were combined with PTSD, posing greater problems in treatment and recovery.
“Constituting a particularly grim facet of this mental health crisis is the doubling of the suicide rate for US Army personnel, with many who attempted suicide suffering serious injuries,” opine the report authors.
It maintains:
“Overall, the Veterans Administration’s budget has more than doubled over the past decade, from $61.4 billion in 2001 to $140.3 billion in 2013. As a share of the total US budget it has grown from 2.5 percent to 3.5 percent over the same period. Soaring medical costs for veterans is attributable to several factors. Among them is that, thanks to advancements in medical technology and rapid treatment, soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan have survived wounds that would have cost their lives in earlier conflicts.”
http://www.globalresearch.ca/afghanistan-and-iraq-americas-six-trillion-dollar-wars/5351229
Thanks for the additional information suave.
I don’t know what it will take to really convince the American people of the real consequences of all of this and that “fight them over there” really doesn’t keep us safe from them.
You really do not believe that military operations in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen…have prevented terrorist attacks on US soil? You cannot be serious.
You are an idoit.One that doesn’t realize he is an idiot.Either that or you are a Zionist hasbarite,trying to sway public opinion for your allegiance.
No,we haven’t prevented any attacks on the homeland(blech),and 9-11 was a direct result of our previous excursions in the ME.
War Powers Resolution
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/50/1541
Unless and until this law is repealed, there are no other legal exceptions in US law. Not that this will stop any President, nor those who parrot the rationalizations provided by the government no matter how spurious the lies they are fed.
Sorry suave. That last comment wasn’t meant to be a reply to you but rather a standalone comment aimed at the people who so persistently ignore what our law actually says about getting involved in conflict.
While I realize this is an aside from the issue, I take issue with that one term used so freely. To what I refer is the diagnosis of PTSD. I wholeheartedly agree that war veterans for sure, and others, are injured psychologically by traumatic events, especially in war. It is the last word in that diagnosis to which I take the most umbrage. Anyone who has lived through the horror we call war would be quite in order to be affected by that horror in a negative manner. It’s the ones who take it all in stride and never have nightmares or any effect at all that would seem to be suffering some kind of disorder. Just seems to be bass ackward to me. Anyone that can kill and be in constant fear of being killed with no harm to their soul, I would worry about when the demons start to show.
This just shows that most Americans are not only stupid, but cowardly also. More terrorist bug-a-boo from the leaches in DC gets the chicken littles running.
Sure it’s stupid of them to fear ‘sleeper cells’ that have never woken up, but it’s no more ridiculous than accepting the BS Bush spread over the 911 event. If it makes sense that 19 incompetents could bring down the World Trade Center, then surely the Boogie Man must be real!
When these poll shifts toward support for another war first came to my intention, it sent me into quite a tailspin. Most Americans are so easily swayed by the drum beat for war, but this is even more evident when we have a Democratic party president temporarily carrying the ball for the energy companies and the rest of the fascist elite. I can’t wait to get back to the good old days, when Democratic liberals used to be outraged by War Crimes and lies when the Republicans held sway. Not that I have any confidence that they represent an effective resistance. Obama has done more to ruin us than Bush. But one way or the other we are going down. Pick your poison.
Warning to War Supporters
Much more where the above tidbits came from:
http://davidswanson.org/node/4516?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
1) Bombing actually worked in WWII. You may ask the Poles, the Russians, the French…and yes the Jews. Bombing worked as well in the Balkans. You may ask the people of Kosovo. Bombing worked in Kuwait (1991). You may ask the Kuwaitis. So, sometimes bombing is a disaster, but sometimes it works. You do not need to use air power in a country where the police can detain and arrest criminals.
2) Most of these criminal groups ISIS or Al Qaeda for instance kill more Muslims than Americans or Europeans. They have a religious agenda that most people fail to understand. The US is just on their path. They will not vanish if you completely ignore them and do not use force against them. They will move forward.
3) “Bombing strengthens ISIS”. The Kurds on the ground disagree with you, the Irakis on the ground disagree with you and more importantly, the innocent civilians that ISIS has been openly and systematically killing disagree with you. I think that those on the ground have a better view of the effects of bombing ISIS.
4) “bombing (Afghanistan) made everything worse not better”. What exactly became worse? Access to education? Access to healthcare? the economy? political freedom? freedom of expression? freedom of assembly? infrastructures? women rights?
Of course, Afghanistan has become Switzerland since 2001, but tell us what was better under the Taliban that is so bad now that makes Afghanistan in general “worse” than before. Different presidents face different policies. President Bush I bombed Irak because it invaded Kuwait affecting oil supplies. President Bush II went to Irak by lying to the public. President Obama sent troops to Irak at the request of the elected government of that nation that is keen to stop an extremely violent criminal organization.
Not all conflicts are the same and do not require the same resources. The benefits of helping a few African countries protect themselves against criminal groups that kidnap children are way over the financial costs.
5) Very simplistic view of what is going on in Syria. Many rebel groups that received weapons from the West are still fighting against ISIS in Syria. Many weapons obtained by ISIS came from Iraki bases they seized. Are you able to convince the Iranians not to fuel fire in Syria by sending weapons to the other side? Are you able to convince the Russians not to fuel fire by sending weapons to the other side?
6) What are the options then? Diplomacy? ISIS already showed the world how they negotiate. Convert, or leave or die. You really think they care about diplomacy?
United Nations? The UN has already condemned ISIS and clearly stated that it is a violent criminal group.
UN police force? Who will part of the force? Irak will never accept troops from Sunni countries on it soil. So forget about Saudi Arabia, Qatar etc. Moreover, Sunnis tribes will never accept Shias troops (Iran) in their areas.
“has not become Switzerland”
THIS. Glen, I’m a huge fan of yours, but I have to agree with the last point especially that Steb makes. What is the solution to the ISIS crisis? You make a lot of criticisms, but what about a practical solution?
One prong of a workable solution is to stop funds reaching them. Why has that not been done? There is a global financial network that is monitored by the NSA – they could easily intercept funding from Qatar and wherever else, ie Saudi Arabia, and end ISIS without causing more death and destruction to innocent civilians who happen to be inconveniently, or not, in the the way, and without breaking the backs of US taxpayers.
An item to note: Another little clue as to whom is beneficiary of ISIS’ existence – no threats at all have been made towards Israel. Aware people should find that fact of some significance.
But the main question remains – why not cut their funding?
One prong of a workable solution is to stop funds reaching them. Why has that not been done? There is a global financial network that is monitored by the NSA – they could easily intercept funding from Qatar and wherever else, ie Saudi Arabia, and end ISIS without causing more death and destruction to innocent civilians who happen to be inconveniently, or not, in the the way, and without breaking the backs of US taxpayers.
It hasn’t been stopped for the same reason that banks like HSBC haven’t been prosecuted for money-laundering for the drug cartels. It makes a tiny proportion of people in power very, very wealthy and even more powerful.
For at least half a decade, the storied British colonial banking power helped to wash hundreds of millions of dollars for drug mobs, including Mexico’s Sinaloa drug cartel, suspected in tens of thousands of murders just in the past 10 years … The bank also moved money for organizations linked to Al Qaeda and Hezbollah, and for Russian gangsters; helped countries like Iran, the Sudan and North Korea evade sanctions; and, in between helping murderers and terrorists and rogue states, aided countless common tax cheats in hiding their cash.
“They violated every goddamn law in the book,” says Jack Blum, an attorney and former Senate investigator who headed a major bribery investigation against Lockheed in the 1970s that led to the passage of the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act. “They took every imaginable form of illegal and illicit business.”
That nobody from the bank went to jail or paid a dollar in individual fines is nothing new in this era of financial crisis. …
It was the dawn of a new era. In the years just after 9/11, even being breathed on by a suspected terrorist could land you in extralegal detention for the rest of your life. But now, when you’re Too Big to Jail, you can cop to laundering terrorist cash and violating the Trading With the Enemy Act, and not only will you not be prosecuted for it, but the government will go out of its way to make sure you won’t lose your license.
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/gangster-bankers-too-big-to-jail-20130214
That was Obama’s Justice Department, specifically Assistant Attorney General Lanny Breuer, who made that decision, signed off on by Holder.
Some people still haven’t heard about, or admitted to, the two-tiered justice that has been thriving for a very long time. Someone once wrote a book about it titled, With Liberty and Justice for Some: How the Law Is Used to Destroy Equality and Protect the Powerful. Folks should look it up. I don’t think the author went back nearly far enough in time, but his points on the more modern manifestations are worthy of consideration.
@Pedinska
Of course, I know that Pedinska, and my question still stands. First as a suggestion to our journalists to ask that question, to speak out wrt what they know about Intelligence Agency monitoring of financial transactions on a global scale, and then to expose the hypocrisy of our leaders not telling the American people (and Europeans) that such an option is available, that if it were regarded as desirable (and why isn’t pleeez?), the cutting funding option should have been applied by now. That it hasn’t been implies that the PTB prefer war to the other easier method of eliminating the threat ISIS purportedly poses. So yes, many of we commenters know that, but the people who don’t have a right to know that war is the preference of the USG; that the fact of the existence of the unused other option reveals that truth.
But regardless of what the government claims is true, and regardless of the unlikeliness the defunding option would be chosen, the people should be told of this by the adversarial press. Were they informed, they would be far less supportive of a military action costly in both lives and money. Knowledge of how easily and without fanfare ISIS could be neutered could cut through the propagandized fear and jingoistic nationalism it provokes – at least on the people’s side of the equation. And that would be a start whereby future calls for war scenarios are viewed with more skepticism.
As you know, the funding of ISIS is different from big bank money laundering for the CIA or any other black ops. Despite being engineered with the same underlying profit motive, this is far more in the open than standard undercover operations and murky bank involvement in drug running. The government’s own intelligence services having the power to intercept specific financial transactions that aid the continued growth and development of ISIS is easier to comprehend than the other, I think. For example, this man, Stuart Levey whose job description is:
Okay, okay, so maybe that (emphasized) office is in charge of funding terrorists, not defunding them. ;)
Still, the people should be given specific awareness of whatever fraud is at play so that they can call out for witnessing that our ‘we’re spying you to keep you safe’ program actually performs as we’ve all been told to expect it should!
I could be wrong and unless I’m grossly misinformed about this, I suggest more information is better than not enough. And not enough is too much the standard fare.
http://www.informationweek.com/government/leadership/image-gallery-whos-who-in-us-intelligence/d/d-id/1088806?page_number=19
I think your question was a good one, seer, and wasn’t by any means trying to dissuade anyone from pursuing more info, but rather was trying to add to what you said. In addition, I hoped to draw attention to the sort of work Taibbi was doing on this prior to leaving RS for FL. I hope he continues to investigate similar stories once he’s up and running with the new publication. In the meantime, links like the one you provided here are helpful in explaining the rank corruption. Keep injecting them into the conversation, and thanks for doing so.
Stop screwing with region,and stop funding by US and our malignant allies,the gulf states and get Israel to treat their captives with humanity instead of hatred.
Voila.
Can you identify a Jewish army or a Jewish division in WW2 hit by bombing by the Axis?Sheesh,the propaganda.As far as the French,they were bombed more by the allies than Germany,and harbored anger long after the war.Yeah the Russians were bombed,but that just made them saddle their horses quicker for that ride through Europe.It’s a motivator for some,look at the bombing by air on 9-11 that catapulted US into this idiotic war of terror,where we strike at symptoms instead of the pathogens.
Before I can even comment on the article, I must find that I must first struggle hard to believe the sources of the poll data, something I never used to do before 2011. Back then, the integrity of Gallup, Pew and a few others was hallowed ground. But in 2011, I came across an online website soliciting bids for a special software the requirements of which were clearly spelled out. The implementation of the software would be to instantiate fake servers from anywhere in the world, capable of collecting fake users with complete fake IPs. An electronic version of “Manufactured Consent” if you will. I printed the article and saved it but like all the research materials and accidental finds I save, as well as documentation of my torture, these were removed from my home. I guess this is what they mean when they included a clause that legalizes confiscation of all “tangible things” in warrantless searches of the homes of persons that they abuse.
The conflicts our so-called leaders are endlessly enmeshing us in are destroying not only other countries but also our own. The costs are immeasurable in terms of treasure, humanity’s freedoms and the lives that have been destroyed or ruined forever. Instead of using our resources to find better ways for all of humanity to live, or even to survive the coming reckoning wrt climate change and our harm to the very biosphere we require to support life itself, we have chosen to enslave ourselves to an economic and political system that offers nothing but death, dominion and profit for the few over salvation for the many.
What we have been doing, for a very, very long time, is not working. The declines we see in virtually every place where once there was progress are impossible to ignore. We must find new ways and we must try to amplify and improve upon the ideas brought forth by those who are not just delineating the problems – which is a very important part of changing them – but also of those who have been proposing alternative actions and solutions.
What To Do About ISIS
http://www.worldbeyondwar.org/isis/
“Recognizing where ISIS came from”.
You do not understand what is going in the Middle East. You need to go there, be careful, and meet the clerics, the different tribes, and inform yourself. ISIS and many criminal groups in that area are the result of religious indoctrination. ISIS’ dedication to kill Shias, and other minorities is more important than the fight with USA. The conflict between Sunnis and Shias started almost two thousand years ago. At some point it was even more violent than what we are witnessing now. Going to Irak was wrong, but it was not left in chaos. It is the religious conflict that brought the chaos in the Sunni areas.
You do not understand what is going on in Libya neither. I would tell you to go there and inform yourself, but it is too dangerous. The US government cannot take responsibility for the inability of different tribes to get together and enjoy the wealth of their country. The US government can help by toppling a dictator who spent years killing them, but if their religious interpretations prevent them from negotiating with the other tribes, then that is another debate.
Your solutions.
1) Although the US judicial system is not perfect, but US Soldiers who brutalized prisoners in Abu Ghraib went to jail. ISIS leader was held at Camp Bucca by the way.
2) The Nation of Irak is not destroyed.
3) Irak has been receiving real humanitarian aids for years.
4) What??? Apologize for limited support to those who face a violent and severe “authoritarian” regime?
5) Limited aid has been flowing to Syria through Turkey.
6) No weapons to Irak so ISIS can take over!! Immediately withdraw from Afghanistan so the Taliban can close schools!! WOW What a dedication to help the “authoritarian” regime!!
7) Finally an idea that makes sense
8) I wanted to laugh, but I thought it would not be right to laugh at ignorance. a) Iran’s mullahs cannot accept aids from the Great Satan b) Iran has enough money to invest in nuclear technology, but not enough in solar and wind technology?
9) And how should we deal with a tyrant who decides to invade let’s say Crimea?
10) Baghdad is already loaded with diplomats requesting reforms. It is just extremely hard to convince people who strongly believe in their religious duties to change. Damascus does have diplomats from Russia and Iran who are providing more weapons. Then, you have to convince those two countries to request proper reforms.
11) There are already hundreds of brave journalists, peacemakers…in conflict zones. Some criminal organizations DO NOT CARE!!!
12) Another good idea (it is getting better)
13) And how we will defend the country?
14) LOL
15) LOL
What is wrong with you?
You do not understand what is going in the Middle East. You need to go there, be careful, and meet the clerics, the different tribes, and inform yourself.
Are you telling us that you have been there? That you have met with clerics and the different tribes? Have you talked to Afghani women and, if so, how did their menfolk feel about that?
ISIS and many criminal groups in that area are the result of religious indoctrination.
While it is true that radical Islam in the form of Wahabism has been a central tenet in the development of many of these groups, your simplification is also a convenient erasure of the responsibility of western meddling in the ascension of many of these groups.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alastair-crooke/isis-wahhabism-saudi-arabia_b_5717157.html
In the end, much of the spread of this religious extremism can be laid at the doorstep of the Sauds and our support of their anti-democratic rule. Western leaders have been, and continue to be, blinkered in their understanding of the possible results of their meddling. Their incompetence continues to lead to more violence and endless war. Their incompetence should either lead to their removal or should be exposed for what it really is, a quest to totally destroy the middle east in pursuit of imperialism and control of all significant resources. And now they have begun to ramp up for similar conflicts in Africa.
Your solutions.
You do not understand what is going on when someone uses a link and blockquotes in a comment. These possible alternatives to what is currently going on – alternatives which, considering the failure of current policies, seem worthy of consideration and contemplation at the very least, if not wholesale adoption – were offered by someone other than myself. I don’t necessarily agree with all of them but I do support a search for means other than what we have been engaging in because it quite demonstrably is not working for anyone except those who enrich themselves from the ruination and misery of others.
It is interesting to me that you rarely offer links to support your assertions wrt happenings in the middle east. Your opinions, and that’s all they really are, are not deserving of any more respect than any other unsupported assertions in this or any other forum. And you really ought to learn how to spell Iraq before lecturing others on how things in the middle east should be arranged in order to satisfy you and other war mongerers.
What is wrong with you?
I don’t believe that more violence will result in less violence.
What is wrong with you?
“Are you telling us that you have been there? That you have met with clerics and the different tribes? Have you talked to Afghani women and, if so, how did their menfolk feel about that?”
YES. About you? Have you been there? While your defense is to check my spelling (I wonder whether you are able to spell or even to pronounce Iraq in the local language), my experience in the Middle East for years has allowed me to communicate with the locals (in their own language) and to understand their society, their culture, their religion and their political system. Go to Kabul and ask the women at Kabul University whether things got “worse” for them since 2001. Go to Kandahar, ask that 20 year old woman who is finally learning how to read and write whether it was better for her under the Taliban. Ask the journalists from Tolo TV, Ariana TVs whether freedom of expression is “worse” now than it was before the invasion. Again, do not take my words, do not take CNN, BBC…words. Go check for yourself.
Go to the desert of Jahra. Go to Mecca, Riyadh…ask the most powerful clerics what they think about democracy and other religions.
“While it is true that radical Islam in the form of Wahabism has been a central tenet in the development of many of these groups, your simplification is also a convenient erasure of the responsibility of western meddling in the ascension of many of these groups.”
YES, these violent groups will use western supports for certain tribes to recruit more followers. However, whether western governments support or sanction authoritarian regimes in the Middle East is irrelevant to the beliefs of these groups. If the West is the main reason these groups develop, why do they kill more Muslims than Westerners? Do you need a link to certify that ISIS has been targeting and killing more Muslims than Westerners?
To be honest, we had similar views regarding the Middle East. I thought stopping economic and military relations with authoritarian regimes in the Middle East would bring democratic reforms, peace and basic freedoms. I was wrong. The individuals who are more likely to be elected in free and fair elections would be worse than the regimes we have now. Until you go to these places you will never understand what is going on.
I assumed you knew better than just pasting “solutions” provided by others without reviewing them.
Links? Okay. Why so many Afghans have returned to their country after the invasion? logically they should be running away since things got “worse”?
http://www.unhcr.org/pages/49e486eb6.html
The World Bank and the UN disagree with you that things “got worse”
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26747712
What do the clerics (even those supported by the regimes) think about other religions?
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/us-silent-top-saudi-cleric-s-call-destroy-churches (notice that the lawmaker from Kuwait was elected in a free and fair election)
I don’t believe that more violence will result in less violence.
Following your logic, Hiltler would be the Fuehrer of the world by now.
Obama is picking his targets in Iraq and Syria while missing the point
By Andrew J. Bacevich September 10, 2014
http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2014/09/10/obama-is-picking-his-targets-while-missing-the-point/
Andrew Bacevich is Professor of International Relations and History at Boston University. He is a retired Colonel in the United States Army whose current specialties lie in international relations, security studies, American foreign policy, and American diplomatic and military history.
Andrew Bacevich knows what he’s talking about.
Yeah, but we should ignore them and just keep doing what we’re doing.
Shame on us.
Side note – and small experiment. I guess if you don’t refresh the page between comments, and your first comment was a reply, all your subsequent comments will be “replies” in that thread unless and until you actually refresh the page. :-s
And Froomkin hits one out of the park detailing how the media is finally waking up to the fact that the current war mongering is not the same as actually having a plan to accomplish anything the public expects to look like “success”. As well as the fact that there are significant members of government and the expert class who disagree with The Plan.
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/09/11/news-organizations-finally-realize-obamas-war-plan-messed/
Air strikes, drones and advisers: the new template for America’s counter-terror fight
By Spencer Ackerman, The Guardian, 11 September 2014
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/11/us-isis-iraq-air-strikes-drones-advisers-counterterror
Thanks Pedinska. That war is seen as an inevitability, its transcendence a utopian fantasy, shows a core value laid bare. Peace is the existential threat.
“The only thing we have to fear is fear itself,” said FDR. Every administration since then — including its punditry — has exploited and distorted that insight. If fear is the only thing that will beget fear in Americans, then fears will be manufactured for that purpose. Thus Saddam’s WMD and their mushroom clouds.
But as Corey Robin has taught us (“Fear: The History of a Political Idea”), Thomas “nasty, brutal, and short” Hobbes thought that the use of irrational fears to whip up the public was a punishable offense. There are enough rational — i.e., real things to be afraid of — to make governing easy for those who govern.
Hobbes would not approve of the way the US practices the politics of fear. Global warming is a hoax, but ISIS can strike anywhere in the US at any moment — therefore, America must wage yet another war. Hobbes would recommend that both climate-change deniers and anti-Muslim warmongers be clapped in irons. In America, however, they’re celebrated.
The propaganda machine is working:
http://news.yahoo.com/terror-isis-911-poll-134635258.html
tl;dr
The US in it’s element: lying and war.
Acknowledging past sins allows an individual to shed their guilt and commit new sins with increased vigor. Similarly, acknowledging the mistakes of past wars helps to generate enthusiasm for new ones. To support war wholeheartedly requires a people to maintain a self image as lovers of peace. That way, war is an injustice, unwillingly thrust upon a pacific nation; this generates popular outrage which translates into a desire to annihilate the enemy. If wars are acknowledged to be useful tools of policy, then waging them becomes merely a grim duty and people will go through the motions half-heartedly.
The last Iraq war accomplished exactly what it was intended to; so it’s important for it be popularly considered as a mistake. In the upcoming battle for world supremacy with China, the Middle East, with its strategic oil reserves, could be a power broker. Countries in the region must be shattered by forcibly removing any strong leaders, and allowing the region to degenerate into endless civil wars. The US will intervene as necessary to ensure no side gets the upper hand and the region will not be able to use its oil reserves as a strategic weapon against the US. Only countries that place themselves firmly within the US orbit will be spared. It also indicates why it is vital to overthrow the regime in Iran, the strongest country in the region, which is already aligning itself with China.
Alas, you speak the truth, cynical as it may be.
The Zionists are nothing if not cynical.
“Acknowledging past sins allows an individual to shed their guilt and commit new sins with increased vigor.”
Gee, Neeto, you sound just like an evangelical christian! You should run for US President in 2016. Bet you’d beat Killary.
Here we go again,
Another simplistic and anti American article from Mr Greenwald aimed at the narrow minded individuals. Allow me as a supporter of the truth to answer a few of his questions.
“…in terms of crazed irrationality, how far away from that false belief is the current fear on the part of Americans that there are ISIS sleeper cells “living in the United States”?
There are hundreds of Europeans and Americans who have joined Islamist groups in Syria. These Westerners do have friends and family back home who might share their strong beliefs that violence is the answer to those who disagree with them. So, even if intelligence agencies cannot locate an ISIS sleeper cell (and if they could they would not share it to the public), it is very rationale to assume that they are ISIS sleeper cells in American or in London. History has shown us that terrorist groups such as Al Qaeda do have a strategy of maintaining sleeper cells in the countries they target.
” If the goal of terrorist groups is to sow irrational terror, has anything since the 9/11 attack been more successful than those two journalist beheading videos?…Now, two brutal beheadings later, they are convinced that they are lurking in their neighborhoods, that they are a Grave and Unprecedented Threat (worse than al Qaeda!), and that military action against them is needed.”
No, Mr Greenwald, after multiple massacres, after multiple public executions of prisoners, after the forced displacement of thousands if not millions of innocent civilians, after the consistent persecution of Shias and non Muslim minorities and then, after the two brutal beheadings the American public is convinced that military action is needed. At least put ALL the facts to the readers.
“But almost every credible expert has said that airstrikes, without troops, is woefully inadequate to achieve any of the stated goals. Other than further inflaming anti-American sentiment in the region and strengthening ISIS, what possible purpose can such airstrikes have?”
To prevent thousands of Yazidis from being proudly killed by ISIS. To prevent ISIS from taking over the areas the Kurds control. To prevent ISIS from controlling strategic locations such as the Mosul dam. To dismantle ISIS capability to target holy shrines in southern Irak and start a catastrophic conflict between Sunnis and Shias. To prevent ISIS from invading other countries to establish the caliphate. Oh yes, to “flex muscles and show toughness” as well because it is necessary to show hardcore criminals that we have muscles and we will use them.
“For those who favor air strikes: if, as most regional and military experts predict, it turns out that airstrikes are insufficient to seriously degrade ISIS, would you then favor a ground invasion? ”
NO. For two reasons. 1) the Kurds have shown us that they are able to fight and overcome ISIS when given proper air support. (Battles in Mosul dam and Irbil areas a few weeks ago). 2) The primary responsibility to fight ISIS relies on the Irakis who need to stop fighting against themselves not on the US government. There is no point of sending ground troops if ISIS still has the support of local tribes.
” For those who keep running around beating their chests talking about the imperative to “destroy ISIS”: will that take more or less time than it’s taken to “destroy the Taliban”?”
It is irrelevant. If fighting the Taliban for a hundred years means more freedom for the Afghans, more girls going to schools, better healthcare for the Afghans then we should fight this criminal organization as long as it takes. If fighting ISIS means saving thousands of Irakis (human beings) from being executed, then a timeframe is irrelevant.
“Does it ever occur to such flamboyant warriors to ask why those sorts of groups enjoy so much support, and whether yet more bombing of predominantly Muslim countries – and/or flooding the region with more weapons – will bolster rather than subvert their strength”
1) “so much support”. Really? Mr Greenwald, thousands of Muslims, Christians and other minorities are fleeing ISIS. What much support are you referring to? The women, the journalists, the artists, the students in Afghanistan told you life was better under the Taliban?
Moreover, ISIS members have already killed thousands of Muslims who have nothing to do with America. So, it is inaccurate to suggest that it is our fault they are able to recruit many insane individuals.
2) Such groups manage to have a lot of followers mostly thanks to religious indoctrination and tribal politics.
“It’s easy to understand why beheading videos provoke such intense emotion: they’re savage and horrific to watch, by design. But are they more brutal than the constant, ongoing killing of civilians, including children, that the U.S. and its closest allies have been continuously perpetrating”
Yes, Mr Greenwald they are more brutal than for instance the use of drones to kill the leader of Al Shabab who believes it is his duty to attack a mall and kill as many civilians as he can. I am not schooling you, but allow me to inform the readers about a few military strategies. Firstly, in 2014 there are no military leaders who can guarantee anybody that civilians will not die as a result of wars. So intent counts whenever you evaluate civilians’ casualties. Killing a journalist who is among the enemy and who cannot be recognized is completely different from beheading a journalist taken hostage. Secondly, for the most part drones are more efficient than infantry troops if you are concerned about civilian casualties. The best option to avoid civilian casualties is the use of special forces. However, that would increase the risk of soldiers being captured or killed, which is what all military commanders are avoiding. Finally, let me ask you a question. What should be our response when authorities in other countries are unwilling (Pakistan) or unable (Somalia) to stop criminal groups that continuously kill civilians beyond the borders within which they are located.
“How long will we have to wait for the poll finding that most Americans “regret” having supported this new war in Iraq and Syria and view it as a “mistake”, as they prepare, in a frenzy of manufactured fear, to support the next proposed war?”
We do not know. It will depend on the human and the financial cost. It will also depend on how well you and your followers misinform the public.
My problem with this thinking is logical consistency. Are you saying we have responded consistently in this way to every genocide and horrific situation going on in the world? The answer is no, of course. That in and of itself is an interesting moral question – if one country could stop any horrible genocide by causing, say, only 5% of the death and suffering that would have happened if they had not intervened, should they? I realize this would sound like a nightmare situation to many here, but that’s a *lot of suffering averted.
But the point is, we most decidedly have *not done this, so I think it’s unfair when people point to “Look at how terrible this is!” as if it’s an obvious justification. So is Darfur, so is Sudan, but those are barely a blip, if that, on most people’s radars. There has to be an additional element to point to, in order to explain what makes this case different. I gather that this is: 1) A sense of responsibility, given our prior involvement in Iraq (perhaps there is a case to be made there – GG was also critical of our *not having more continued involvement in Libya, after all) 2) The fact that ISIS openly names the West as an enemy – this is worth factoring in, I think, although in proportion to the actual threat they pose, which so far is estimated to be small.
My overall sense, though, is still that we’re currently pendulum-swinging away from such activity, and while the Iraq War was accepted even by many militarily conservative people like Andrew Sullivan (and Greenwald?) at the time and public opinion didn’t change for years, this particular incident will serve as easy fodder for criticism far more quickly, thus encouraging that trend. We’ll see, I guess.
When ones world view is cultivated by serial lying monsters,they have no concept of the actual reality of that world.All this nonsense today is about securing and expanding the racist Zionist state of Israel,and increasing its power and wealth,the rest of the world be damned.Look around at the misery and poverty of these victims,US included.
Steb, you make a lot of good arguments in favor of declaring war on ISIS. But you omitted a big one, and that is that the war with ISIS is pushing us into a collaborative effort with Iran, and paving the way towards the possibility of improving diplomacy with Iran in the future. And it’s about time. That’s a very relevant silver lining.
Fully agree that it is necessary to improve relations with Iran in order to get a foothold to provide leverage to overthrow the ruling regime there. Isolation does not work (Cuba). The regimes which were successfully destroyed (Libya, Iraq) were the ones which had friendly relations with the US. See links in replies below, since TI screens comments with multiple links.
Libya
Iraq
Il Duce, I read through your links, and particularly with respect to the one on Iraq, what I mainly take away from it is that our policy of meddling in that country could only be considered inept and self-contradictory at best and incredibly destructive at worst, and in either case undeniably expensive. Very, very expensive. You aren’t actually suggesting that our campaign in Iraq was/is a success, are you? A clearly worded response, sans irony would be appreciated. Thanks.
Actually Il Duce, don’t bother, I figured it out, saw your earlier post of today, thanks.
Consider Iraq, Libya and Syria. The US helps overthrow a strongman and the country collapses into warring factions. As they say, once is an accident, twice is a coincidence and three times is a pattern. The idea that the US is hopelessly inept and continually falls victim to unintended consequences of its foreign policy is useful for popular consumption, but does not stand up to scrutiny.
Again Il Duce, I do see your point and it’s certainly a possibility to consider. But I know enough about people and human nature that I can’t easily dismiss what seems to be more obviously the reality of what’s happening here, either. Grazie tanto!
The problem is that Iranian politics is complicated. There are actors in America and Iran who would want to normalize relation between the two countries. However, the most powerful political elements in Iran, the clerics, cannot really normalize relation with the entity they use to support their doctrine. They need “a great satan” to blame for everything in the world.
Yes, I think that’s partly true – we (America) are also the “Great Satan” that Kim Jong Un uses to feed N. Korea’s national paranoia and justify the necessity of his horrible military government. BR Myers wrote a really interesting book on that subject called The Cleanest Race. Not that I am comparing Iran and North Korea, because North Korea might be one of the most horrible places on earth to live and Iran is not.
You did not mention the other obstacle preventing normalized relations between America and Iran, Steb, and that’s Israel. BTW, are you Israeli?
I am a global citizen.
I am a global citizen.Hah hah,definitely a Zionist,as they think the world is their oyster.
I highly doubt that the US will develop improved diplomatic relations with Iran. Until Israel does not enjoy near complete control of USG foreign policy Iran will be obliged to retain its status as the Evil Enemy of Zion and therefore of Israel, and the US. Besides, the US has a long history of broken commitments and treaties – what reason do you imagine it will be transformed into an honest dealer now?
Your silver lining is a pretty and pleasant phantom, methinks.
Seer, if you have ever read any comment I have ever written in these threads, then I think you would know that my comment to Steb about Iran was half ironic and meant provocatively. Steb, a global citizen with an Israeli passport, did not take the bait, because Steb’s English, while more than serviceable, is not good enough to pick up on nuance. Or all the weird little grammatical inconsistencies and funny colloquialisms that slip through spell checks.
Steb, I think your arguments in favor of war are all pretty boilerplate and unconvincing, the kind of stuff anyone can get off Fox News, and that’s not going to cut it with this crowd. You need to bring your A game.
I am not here to debate my English skills. However, my English is good enough to grasp your high level of ignorance when you associate whomever disagree with your views as an Israeli citizen and a Fox News viewer. The country that issues my passport is irrelevant to this debate as it is not a crime to be a citizen of a sovereign state. A global citizen is an individual who strongly believes he can be useful in improving the heartbroken situations in the world. Moreover, I do not watch Fox News because I think it is the mouthpiece of the Republican Party. Fox News’ pundits and Mr Greenwald misinform the public. Your last comment made it clear that you should focus on the study of languages. It is easy for you to catch grammatical mistakes, but you do not possess the mental capability to analyze and understand the complexity of international conflicts.
Steb, if I offended you, that was not my intent and I apologize with all my heart. And anyway, your more-than-serviceable English is way better than my non-existent Hebrew. I am glad you consider yourself a global citizen, and care about the suffering of oppressed people. May I suggest instead of worrying about the Kurds, you look at the oppressed people who are your neighbors, the Palestinians in the occupied territories, and in Gaza. They need your help, and if you help them, you will be helping your own people. It goes both ways.
Well, in that case Dabney, you’ll agree that I agree with you. :)
What is this? You just decide I am Israeli? Maybe I am South African or Japanese. Is that a joke?
If you substituted al-Qaeda for ISIS in this comment and slapped a date of 2002 on it, it would be distinguishable from the rhetoric we were subjected to then.
or perfidious Huns in the first world war (Google image “destroy this mad brute, enlist”), or, or, or…. It’s depressing to watch the same moves work over and over and over again.
History has shown us that terrorist groups such as Al Qaeda thrive when the US commits violence in the Middle East.
…after multiple massacres, after multiple prisoners have been tortured, after the forced displacement of millions of innocent civilians, after decades of aiding and arming oppressive regimes and killing Muslims throughout the Middle East, millions of Muslims are convinced that militant action against the US is needed.
The Saudi regime, supported and armed by the US, committed 19 brutal beheadings in just the last month. One of the victims was beheaded for the crime of “sorcery”. Several others “confessed” under torture. And those responsible for iths brutality are called US allies.
At least put ALL the facts to the readers.
While the US has killed many, many more Muslims – The targeted destruction of Iraq’s infrastructure in Operation Desert Storm and the sanctions that followed – denounced as “war crimes” and “genocide” by the two successive administrators of the program who both resigned in protest, but nonetheless pronounced “worth it” by Former US Secretary of State Madeline Albright – killed some 500,000 Iraqi civilians even before the US set about destroying the country in earnest. And that’s just one example of what the US has done in the Middle East.
Freedom for Aghans and schools for girls are not the reasons the US has been destroying Afghanistan. They became post-hoc rationalizations after the US bombed and invaded, but they are flimsy at best. More Afghan girls were going to school when Afghanistan was under Soviet domination than at any time under US control.
Yes, really. US wars and oppression have clearly boosted support for these militant groups.
And on par for instance with the brutality of the indiscriminate bombing and destruction of cities such as Fallujah.
What we should NOT do is arm and create support for these criminal groups, nor should we arm and support criminal regimes, nor should we invade and destroy other countries. That’s been the US strategy in the Middle East, and it is making things worse.
Where did you get indoctrinated?
…after multiple massacres, after multiple prisoners have been tortured, after the forced displacement of millions of innocent civilians, after decades of aiding and arming oppressive regimes and killing Muslims throughout the Middle East, millions of Muslims are convinced that militant action against the US is needed.
1) Is it a policy of the US government to massacre innocent civilians? Have any US soldiers gone to jail for killing innocent civilians? Name me ONE ISIS members who have been prosecuted by the “Islamic State” for killing civilians.
2) Torture, yes the US has tortured prisoners in Guantanamo and it was wrong. President Obama cannot be held responsible for what Bush and Cheney did.
3) “Forced displacement of innocent civilians”. Can you be more precised? As opposed to ISIS did the US government ask Shias to leave any areas in Irak? Did the US government ask any Sunnis to leave any areas in Irak? 5.7 million Afghans have returned to Afghanistan since the US toppled the Taliban!! These 5,7 million civilians must notice that something has improved there.
http://www.unhcr.org/pages/4f9016576.html
4) Support for the Saudi Regime. What this has to do with ISIS? ISIS is targeting primarily Muslims (in case you did not notice) Shia Muslims to be precised and other minorities. Well, since you wish to go there. Name me one major tribe (it is a tribal society) in SA that supports democracy, freedom of speech, expression…and RELIGION. Just ONE!! In case you cannot find one because there is none, then tell me would you rather deal with SA or ISIS?
5) “The US killed many more Muslims”. Where is that planet you live on? and your narrow minded argument is the sanctions against Irak. A country that was run by a dictator who had a habit of massacring his own population. Really? Is that the best you can find to accuse a government of committing serious crimes?
6) Your argument related to Afghanistan is laughable. No, the US did not go to Afghanistan to send girls to school. You would probably be against such mission anyway. However, are education for girls, better healthcare to the population, more basic freedom to the population the result of the US invasion. YES.
7) Support for criminal groups. You obviously do not understand the doctrine behind Taliban, Al Qaeda and others. Their ability to recruit came from religious indoctrination. US precised guided bombs or Guantanamo are just mere propaganda tools. Moreover, these groups intent to fight the “Infidels” not just to the US!
8) “Indiscriminate bombing and destruction of cities such as Fallujah”. I think you should go to Fallujah or Bagdad yourself and see whether they were “indiscriminately” bombed because you either have no idea what you are referring to or you just blindly repeat what the anti American propagandists say.
9) Our response. You did not answer the question. Again, since you wish to go to our support to authoritarian regimes in the Middle East allow me to ask you this question. What if we cut all business and military transactions to let’s say Saudi Arabia. Basically we would place the country under sanctions roughly similar or worst than the ones placed on Irak you seem to condemn. What would be the consequences of this policy? I assume you have properly reviewed the solution you presented.
You are an anti American, not a supporter of the truth and more importantly the innocent civilians. You are outrage whenever civilians die as a result of US bombs, that is understandable. However, there is no such anger when criminal groups kill civilians violently. If you care so much about the innocent Muslims not involved in wars who just want peace than you should be joyful that the leader of Al Shabab just got killed because those innocent Muslims have always been his target for years.
So your argument is that we are on a humanitarian mission to rid the world of evil. If you look at the history of US foreign policy since the end of WW2, you can see that the goal of our government is to maintain and expand state power. Maybe this is the way the world has to work but you can be sure that it serves our governments interests. Why are we going back in Iraq and Syria? This is not defensive, this is clearly offensive.
“So your argument is that we are on a humanitarian mission to rid the world of evil.”
NO NO NO!!!
Sometimes it is the case (Haiti, 2010-Nigeria, 2014) but most of the invasions and bombings have nothing to do humanitarian missions. Even the involvement in Europe during WWII was not decided for humanitarian reasons although the enemy was evil. However, it does happen that innocent civilians’ life get better as a result of these bombings. For instance, life did get better for the Jews in Europe after bombing the Nazis and life gets better for the Yazidis after bombing ISIS.
“Why are we going back in Iraq and Syria? This is not defensive, this is clearly offensive.”
The deployment in Irak has been requested by the elected Iraki government and the elected Kurd authorities to help them fight an extremely violent criminal organization that makes it clear it intends to invade multiple countries to fulfill its religious crusade. It just happens that this criminal organization has its headquarter located in Syria.
“We have become a Nazi monster in the eyes of the whole world—a nation of bullies and bastards who would rather kill than live peacefully. We are not just Whores for power and oil, but killer whores with hate and fear in our hearts. We are human scum, and that is how history will judge us. . . . No redeeming social value. Just whores. Get out of our way, or we’ll kill you”.
Hunter S. Thompson, Kingdom of Fear: Loathsome Secrets of a Star-Crossed Child in the Final Days of the American Century
http://www.businessinsider.com/2012-solar-storm-almost-ended-life-on-earth-2014-7
I saw the answer to all this when Naomi Wolf was on CNN awhile back, the other person said flat out the media thinks its there job to support what the government wants to do.
Just exactly how is killing people in Iraq and Syria going to make it safe inside US borders?
… well, Nate, since ideas and words are Greenwald’s “artillery”, I think you’re clicking on his plan: investigative journalism and independent thinking.
To those wondering if there is a difference between the foreign policy of Romney and Obama, just ask yourself: did you rape her because you care about her and want the best for her or did you rape her just because you’re bigger and she’s smaller.
For what it’s worth, I started reading Greenwald with this:
http://www.salon.com/2007/04/24/halberstam_press/
I have been grateful ever since.
testing testing. One two…
C’mon American’ts….are you really that easily duped? Plenty of proof ISIS is an US creation. Isn’t anyone smart enough and powerful enough going to stand up and call bullsh.. on these guys.
There is definitely a frightening conflict afoot here: on the one side, you have a psychopathic death cult forcing their outdated and deranged ideology on every area they conquer with bloody force and on the other side you have: ISIS. And no, I’m not kidding.
To quote a wise man talking about another looming war decades ago:
“How are things, in this respect, in the world of the ‘democracies’? They now want, for the third time this century, to lead humanity to war, in the name of ‘the war against war’. This requires men to fight at the same time that war as such is criticised. It demands heroes while proclaiming pacifism as the highest ideal. It demands warriors, while it has made ‘warrior’ a synonym for attacker and criminal, since it has reduced the moral basis of ‘the just war’ to that of a large-scale police operation, and it has reduced the meaning of the spirit of combat to that of having to defend oneself as a last resort.
Some will try to make others go and fight instead of them, offering as inducements beautiful words about humanitarianism, glory and patriotism. Apart from this, the only thing a man in such a world will fight for is his own skin.”
Lacking any belief but the Great God Capitalism and his archangel American Exceptionalism, all it takes is an imaginary threat to their spoiled lifestyles to send the majority of Americans – ignorant cowards all – into a frenzy of attrition aimed at places they couldn’t find on a map.
But then that’s always been the problem with democracy: all the stupid people have to do is outbreed the intelligent ones and they get anything they (think they) want.
I could also get into gullibility and the “authenticity” of the recent beheading videos, but I’d rather end the text wall here. I will note that while the Berg and Pearl videos are still easily accesible years later, Foley’s was rushed away and obfuscated faster than an underage celebrity’s sex tape.
Good writing
The only goal I can think of with using airstrikes is to give support and time to local Iraqi ground forces. Clearly, the reason why we haven’t started bombing yet is because we wanted a unity government in Iraq and to get coordinated plans ready with the army. Obama is not signaling any intent for ground forces. If we go, it’s airstrikes.
I am a non-interventionist to the core. But for me, there is a slight humanitarian case for strikes against ISIS. The best justification for military intervention is in the case when a) there is one good guy and one bad guy, and b) that bad guy wants to anihilate the good guy. Rwanda is the only situation in the last 30 years of adventures that I can think of where this would apply, and we let clear mass genocide slide. But the crimes that ISIS are committing, if reports are correct, are just as bad. The mass murders, raping of women and selling them off, the targeting and execution of religious minorities; there is no government on earth that has ever been so utterly evil.
But this CANNOT be a US intervention, if we are going to do it. We have to put together a very broad coalition of parties with great interest in taking out ISIS. And it will have to involve people who we historically have not been very fond of. This means we have to open the door, for example, to Iran, who want nothing to do with the possibility of these lunatics on their borders. Russia and China have an interest in this, as they would rather have their man Assad than ISIS. If we could get a UN Resolution for force against ISIS through the Security Council, it would be worth it.
“Since January, 2009, I’ve almost never heard that phrase. ”
Never occurred to you that we didn’t have a war thirsty leader in office? That we had already mostly ended the wars in Afraq? I mean, comparing 2009 to 2005 is quite a stretch. World changed in that period.
I used to think those kids stories elephants afraid of mice were bull. What kind of coward believes 10000 chaps are a threat to the US? Pathetic.
It’s almost another anniversary of the infamous 9-11 and I have to wonder what sorts of propagandistic memorials will be drummed up to insure that we remain both scared sh*tless, and worshipful of those who are trying to “save” us. That ISIS has so recently become viewed as such a great threat (even though the group has been around for awhile) is quite likely linked to this anniversary.
And that’s not even the worst of it. A friend of mine told me yesterday that he went to Burger King on Sunday right after church, and it was filled with harlots, some of who began to give him the evil eye.
So here’s my take on it: What is happening here in “The Homeland” is truly scary. I’m also worried about excessive hyphenitis among the media and others. I’m also wary when the media continues to say “ISIS” and the White House still uses “ISIR.” Can we at least get a cease-fire on this?
As usual, Glenn Greenwald? falls way short of reality with regard to indisputable western, Israeli and other puppet Arab state support to establish and sustain the mercenary forces in Iraq and Syria now referred to as “ISIS”. Also typical, Glenn Greenwald? insidiously avoids pinpointing specific people and organizations who are clearly behind incredibly bias western media misinformation and propaganda.
Could be my reading comprehension, but after the 3rd pass, I wondered if English wasn’t your second language.
Eg; insidiously, or assiduously?
Either word works in context.
A shorter…MUCH shorter list…would be of those journalists who AREN’T jumping on the bandwagon.
When Greenwald dropped the Snowden bombshell last year, he had PLENTY to say to the conventional media…eg David Gregory. Notice that Gregory is now gone.
If you have complaints, complain to corporate media and their advertisers.
@Mona –
Your theory is… Under Bush, liberal war opponents used the “inane chickenhawk slur” (Greenwald) against war supporters. So, now, Greenwald is setting a trap, hoping for liberal supporters of Obama’s wars to come along and reject the chickenhawk argument that he is (convincingly) pretending to make, thus demonstrating their hypocrisy. Or, more likely, he expects everyone who’s been paying enough attention (especially his peers) to understand what he’s doing, which is using the tweets to point out the hypocrisy? (The hypocrites know who they are!) Poor suckers like Kory and Lalo M. and probably 90% of the people who read his tweets can be perplexed (or think he’s being inane), but they don’t matter; he’s addressing those who remember the chickenhawk debates of the Bush years, and who know well how the mind of Glenn Greenwald works. Is THAT it?
Is that the game he’s playing in the run up to a war?? That’s what he’s thinking about? It’s not enough for him to simply point out the hypocrisy in a column, as he did right here in Item #6? “Ordinary” people like Kory and Lalo M. need to be used as hapless props in the game he’s playing with the twitter elite? Because it’s so hugely important to point out liberal hypocrisy, whenever it occurs, even when a war is being debated?
Is that your theory, Mona?
I wonder if behind those closed doors Mr. Cheney explained how hard his good friend John McCain has been working for years to help ISIS/ISIL get a nice jumpstart on their “operations” (AKA “NNBA”: Necessary New Boogieman for America):
http://www.voltairenet.org/article185085.html
And here’s a video of John McCain (best friend of Lindsay Graham and former Secretary of State Hillary! Clinton) extolling the virtues of ISIS:
http://investmentwatchblog.com/mccaineveryone-on-the-national-security-team-recommended-arming-isis/
After all of Mr. McCain’s hard organizing endeavors, tonight Obama will inform the taxpayers that there will have to be a “long” war against ISIS and even though he may not admit to the “regime change” that he and his Neocon masters have been seeking in Syria, we can all rest assured that that will be part of the strategy.
Trying to scare the American people into going after Assad before due to his unproven use of chemical weapons against his own people didn’t work. So now they’ve trotted out their ISIS rogue groups “beheadings” and apparently now the American public is ready to take out their checkbooks again even to the obvious detriment of the U.S. infrastructure, medical care (Ha!), education, well-paying jobs and environmental protection (dismantling San Onofre to prevent our own Fukushima will cost billions).
Of course none of this should come as a shock to anyone who has been paying attention. Gen. Wesley Clark told us via an Amy Goodman interview many years ago that the Pentagon’s orders a few weeks after 9/11 “Patriots Day!” were to “take out seven countries in five years”:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RC1Mepk_Sw
What a shame no one took Eisenhower’s warning to heart:
“In the councils of government we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.”
The same Wesley Clark who recently endorsed our stupid war of terror against Syria,and our Frankenstein Isis.
Has anyone told the American people ISIS declared Ayman Al-Zawahiri an apostate, and consider Al-Qaeda an enemy?
Probably someone should…
Not sure why this tory has not yet made it to TI’s front page. One would think it would have been headlined there by now….. :-s
Story.
Me and my fyslexic dingers. Gak. :-s
I hate to bring up the Ray Rice video (again), but there’s a perfect example of what you’re talking about in point 7. This is a case of the death of adult imagination. People have lost the ability to see anything without actually seeing it. Before the elevator video, the outcry over Ray Rice knocking his fiancé unconscious was minimal, and at most a talking point re: the NFL’s ludicrous disciplinary measurements. Apparently people couldn’t get upset about a woman being punched in the face until they saw a woman being punched in the face. It’s the same thing with ISIS, or any violent middle east conflict America has engaged in, possibly ever. To this day, there’s little to no outrage from the American public about us killing 140,000+ Iraqi civilians in pursuit of their “liberation.” Post that number on the front of the New York Times and you will hear nothing. Post a video of an Iraqi Kim Phuc online and you’ll have people on the streets, or at least thinking twice about letting it happen again.
As always– thank you, Glenn.
When your actions are held to the same standard and level of opprobrium Rice has had to endure for being on a spy tape,you can be so righteous.It seems their are a number of stories out there today to hurt black people,as Ferguson exposed the black heart of America and embarrassed our poohbahs,and you can’t expose power without repercussion.
Glenn, I see your Ben Nelson and raise you one Dick Cheney.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/09/dick-cheney-republicans-military-isis
Because if we don’t fight them Viet Cong in Da Nang, we’ll be fightin’ ’em in Beverly Hills.
@ coram nobis:
Yeah…that Dick is capable of some outstanding diabolical maneuvers (? manure).
“And its one, two, three…
What are we fighting for?
Don’t ask me, I don’t give a damn.
The next stop is Viet Nam.
And it’s five, six, seven…
Open up the pearly gates.
Well. there ain’t no time to wonder why.
Whopee! we’re all gonna die.” – Country Joe
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7Y0ekr-3So
No, I just thought that Cheney’s gall was truly powerful, as opposed to Ben Nelson’s hysteria. As warmongering rhetoric, Cheney was even better than Rick (“Oops”) Perry.
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2014/08/21/rick-perry-its-possible-isis-has-crossed-southern-border/
The worrisome thing is, that Obama might feel he has to show Strength to impress these people, the former vice-president in particular. Some men seem to be all to willing to put themselves in places they shouldn’t be, but seem to dislike withdrawal.
I just thought that Cheney’s gall was truly powerful, as opposed to Ben Nelson’s hysteria.
It’s all about the dick-pounding.
I’m so glad my mother taught me to try to remain uninfluenced by others’ opinions of me. It’s not a perfect science, but it sure has had its rewards. Not the least being that I have yet to bang my ovaries on so much as a counter, let alone a table. Or on tv for that matter. :-s
@ Pedinska:
“Or on tv for that matter.”
Yeah…He really crosses the line into the zone of pure and blatant obscenity.
@ coram nobis:
Cheney has more experience with powerful delivery than Perry…Secretary of Defense during Desert Storm in 1991 under George H.W. Bush (41st) if I remember correctly. Just can’t get rid of that Bush family oil connection at Halliburton.
See: “US – Iraq War”
http://usiraq.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000670#kuwait
Which adds more emphasis toward his motivation for being the truly grand Dick that he is.
“Officials have expressed concern about American citizens and westerners who have joined ISIS. Those individuals are holding passports that allow them to enter the U.S. legally.”
One has to wonder why that would be.
No doubt the real concern is that someone will openly question US involvement in military operations that Dick Cheney has displayed such concentrated concern and directed “powerful” dialogue toward advancing. After all, he has something of a reputation at being a real false “flag-waver.”
Obama did appear to be putting up some initial minor resistance but I suspect that he is not ultimately motivated by the notion of withdrawal from another prolonged Iraqi operation overseas. Certainly there is a doubt about a potential show of Strength at this time…particularly with regard to location. It has a mind numbing effect if one thinks about it too long.
that’s actually refreshing, lol
I wonder if behind those closed doors Mr. Cheney explained how hard his good friend John McCain has been working for years to help ISIS/ISIL get a nice jumpstart on their “operations” (AKA “NNBA”: Necessary New Boogieman for America):
http://www.voltairenet.org/article185085.html
And here’s a video of John McCain (best friend of Lindsay Graham and former Secretary of State Hillary! Clinton and the new Caliph) extolling the virtues of ISIS:
http://investmentwatchblog.com/mccaineveryone-on-the-national-security-team-recommended-arming-isis/
Tonight Obama will inform the taxpayers that there will now be a “long” war against ISIS and even though he may not admit to the “regime change” that he and his Neocon masters have been seeking in Syria, we can all rest assured that that will be part of the strategy. I wonder if he’ll seek a Congressional vote on the authorization for this new ISIL war or if he’ll just “go it alone”??
Trying to scare the American people into going after Assad before due to his unproven use of chemical weapons against his own people didn’t work. It was especially vexing when Mr. Putin came to the rescue and helped John Kerry get rid of Assad’s chemical weapons.
So now they’ve trotted out their ISIS rogue groups “beheadings” and apparently that will persuade the American public to take out their checkbooks again even to the obvious detriment of the U.S. infrastructure, medical care (Ha!), education, well-paying jobs and environmental protection (dismantling San Onofre to prevent our own Fukushima will cost billions). Get out the body bags and yellow ribbons and wave those flags!
Of course none of this should come as a shock to anyone who has been paying attention. Gen. Wesley Clark told us via an Amy Goodman interview many years ago that the Pentagon’s orders a few weeks after 9/11 “Patriots Day!” were to “take out seven countries in five years”:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RC1Mepk_Sw
What a shame no one took Dwight D. Eisenhower’s warning to heart:
“In the councils of government we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.”
In the interest of brevity:
The MSM news outlets are spouting state sponsored propaganda diligently voiced by state sponsored politicians, with regard to state sponsored mercenary “terrorists”; to prolong a state sponsored “War on Terror” conducted for the mutual benefit of the military industrial complex and NATO allies, with the overall objective of obtaining real assets (land and land resources) for the global “elite”.
Huh…maybe it is necessary to take a closer look at the state sponsored clandestine origins of ISIS before imagining external “threats” to a population of people which have already been terrorized by the internal threats created and diligently maintained their own government.
See: “The Covert Origins of ISIS?”
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article39603.htm
Only one of many examples of articles available via legitimate alternative news organizations.
Better to go after the real terrorists – the politicians in the US Government (all three branches) who have sworn to defend the Constitution of the United States of America while doing everything in their power to invalidate the intent of that document in order to benefit themselves and their global elite masters.
Thanks Mr. Greenwald.
It’s a good idea not to conflate the American people with the politicians and police who comprise their government. It’s not like the American government is democratic or representative, and as long as that’s true, Sen Bill Nelson is not indicative of anything about the American people.
I’m about to quit trying to comment on this website. Why are my comments being kicked back? Because I used Sarah Palin’s name?
The comment section will *always* tell you about the moderation policy and imply that your comment was rejected, until you click on “read more comments” at the bottom of the screen, which will show all the comments and (hopefully) your newly submitted comment. So it’s just a poor design presently, and doesn’t seem to be actively censoring anything. The one thing that does seem to require pre-moderation (so you’ll have to wait to see it post) is a comment with multiple links. Those often get caught up in screening prior to appearing.
Strangely, my new comment now seems to appear only on the initial recent comments page, prior to clicking on “read more comments,” but disappears if I click to read more. So it seems very possible that you’re having a different problem than what I expected. I’m completely certain the comments weren’t failing to appear due to using Sarah Palin’s name. (and, as you can see, “bullshit” and the Sarah Palin comment both appeared… though I can’t verify if that was immediately after you posted them)
As best I can tell, when you submit a new comment – and aren’t a brand new commenter or have multiple links in it – it can take a few minutes for it to show up.
I usually give it a minute, read a few more comments, then refresh the page. When you refresh the page, you will be deposited into the middle of a sampling of new comments which are disembodied from the comments they were in reply to (if they were replies). In order to get them into the proper place (i.e. under the comment they were in reply to) you have to click on the “read more comments” button. Once you do that, you have the entire display of comments, and your comment, which was initially featured in the abbreviated section due to being new, will now be back in its proper place (for the most part).
Hope that helps.
It’s pretty astonishing how many hoops you have to jump through now in order to comment here and it’s not at all intuitively obvious how it operates. Unfortunately it’s having an effect – not nearly as much commenting is happening. The problems need to be fixed or, at least, an instruction manual supplied when one logs on!
Like typing your name and email? Making tea must be a real challenge…
I’m disappointed that TI’s comment system is so unfriendly to commenters. And the fact that one cannot link back to previous comments that fall below the read more comments button makes the system woefully inadequate for those who wish to weave continuity into the ideas they offer and to pick up on previously presented notions of significance to current stories.
…link back to previous comments that fall below the read more comments button…
That is to comments in previous articles.
That bs remark was on the comment system, it just threw out my comment for no reason I can see.
Even if the elite send their offspring to a war zone, they send them someplace like the ‘Green Zone’ in Iraq. Even Sarah Palin’s patriotic son was in the green zone.
bullshit
Even if the elite send their offspring to a war zone, their offspring are stationed in an area like the green zone in Iraq. Even Sarah Palin’s patriotic son was stationed in the green zone.
Fun time quiz
A) To increase energy independence, I believe we should fully exploit our domestic coal reserves.
Reply: Are you going to move to West Virginia and become a miner then?
B) To revive the public’s interest in space exploration, I believe we should renew manned expeditions.
Reply: Are you going to have the right stuff and become an astronaut then?
C) I do not believe ISIL is “manageable,” I agree these terrorists must be chased to the “gates of hell”.
Reply: Are you volunteering to fight them then?
1) Which reply is more or less reasonable than the others? ( A B C None )
2) Which reply was actually given by Glenn Greenwald on Twitter? ( A B C None )
Glenn Greenwald: Has anyone linked ISIS & Ebola yet? That is definitely coming.
To those who support an aggressive campaign against Ebola: are you willing to travel to the afflicted areas and participate directly in the fight? It’s very easy to sit in comfort and call for others to risk their lives fighting a deadly infectious disease. If you truly believe the threat is extreme, and Ebola should be eradicated, why wouldn’t you volunteer?
If you truly believe the threat is extreme, and Ebola should be eradicated, why wouldn’t you volunteer?
Because sending people who are not properly trained or have the appropriate experience will just make the situation worse. I didn’t let untrained people work in my HIV lab. Ebola is much more contagious/dangerous. The same could be said for sending someone ignorant of safety protocols into a mine and/or someone into space who lacks proper training.
We are all human and because of that we are inclined to put things into sometimes quite simplistic statements/questions, and/or to employing an interlocutor’s techniques against them, to prove a given point. Doing it on twitter doesn’t help, in fact, probably exacerbates the tendency. I totally see your issue with what Glenn has done, but I think his shorthand is designed to get folks to look at their hypocrisy in advocating endless military intervention. It also mocks their own simplistic formulations used to panic everyone. There have been people who went to war based on things like 9/11 (Pat Tillman comes to mind). The people who promote these actions, based on their own overblown fears, or profits, or power, make a mockery of genuine sacrifice. I think it’s perfectly legitimate to turn that on its head in order to find out why they think everyone else should have to serve their warped purposes, instead of them and their loved ones.
BTW, it turns out someone actually has tried to link ISIS and Ebola.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2747965/I-ve-never-seen-Border-Patrol-Filmmaker-shows-Ebola-infected-ISIS-terrorist-sneak-Lake-Erie-Canada-Cleveland-RICIN-Rock-Roll-Hall-Fame.html
That it was that wretched asshole James O’Keefe shouldn’t surprise anyone. Nor should they be complacent about how far this sort of thing will spread through the citizenry. I’d be willing to bet two turkeys that I will hear of this from the mouths of my rightwing relatives this coming Thanksgiving if not sooner.
I have already heard that repeated on the radio this morning. It seems Gov. Rick Perry has suggested they are here, now – ISIS that is – through the unprotected Mexican border with Texas and ready to strike our capital city. Or maybe it was those 9 year old refugees from Guatemala bringing ebola with them. More frightening is to know there are actually people in the US who believe these fictions.
Last month it was nuclear weapons the all-powerful ‘they’ were bringing in. It’s so hard to keep current. ;)
Good story here Glenn. You touched on some important things and made good points, one of them being the fact that the language of our politicians is so drummed up and out of control that you would think we just had another 9/11. Guess what, people have been killed in droves on both sides by extremism, this is nothing new. First the Islamic militants, which mind you, put an AK47 and camo on an average Joe in Iraq and he’s considered an Islamic Militant, they are breed from this kind of bomb them to make it right mentality! There are always civilian causalities when you bomb someone! Almost always anyway. We have all heard the horror stories from these drone strikes, women and children being killed by the dozen, this is our own government! What makes them any different from ISIS then?! What the fancy drone technology instead of bullets? In the end I think history will reflect what our governments agenda is since 9/11….A dramatic escalation on the part of this country and the cold truth that endless war is profitable to those in the military industrial complex.
Wars are no only profitable, they are necessary as well. History of mankind is built around wars.
I think the U.S. made a mistake by completely ignoring the situation until it got too bad to handle. Why in the world didn’t the CIA hire several hundred Free Syrian Army rebels back in 2011 to keep the U.S. updated on the whereabout of radicals? Why in the world didn’t the U.S. utilize that inteligence and the environmental chaos in Syria to hire hit men to kill ISIS leaders and other wanted personalities? The current situation is the result of American issolationism and not a balanced policy of restraint and vibrant inteligence gathering. I hate war just as much as Greenwald but I hate genocide and murder even more and people who make the argument that airstrikes to protect civilians are okay in Iraq but not ok in Syria are hypocrates at best. 20% of Syrians have died as a result of the Syrian air force terror bombing their towns. If the U.S. had destroyed the Syrian air force back in 2013 and imposed a no-fly zone we wouldn’t be having this conversation today, a lot more people would be alive and ISIS wouldn’t be ruling over millions of scared shitless civilians. America needs to forget the Issolationist vs. Interventionist dynamic. Foreign policy is hard work but the best chance America has of helping the global community is enforcing rules like stopping mass murder and preventing attacks on civilians. It’s not a trillion dollar war we’re talking about here. Any other approach, radical issolationist or radical interventionist is doomed to lead to more bloodshed than necessary.
silly..
Exactly! What a civilized society needs is to send ‘innocent children’ to be slaughtered, at the behest of our elders, to make a point.
@ suave – I misstated that – i should have said “grown children of legal age” or “nearest relatives of legal age.” Thank you for catching that.
My point being that the warmongers and lawmakers over the past decades have all too often abdicated both their own personal responsibility and those of their legal-aged loved ones when considering taking our country to war, and having to feel the consequences directly, as the remainder of American citizens of legal age have had to do (with a draft scenario) or because of predominantly economic reasons (with the “volunteer armed forces”) protects them from facing such consequences, and thus perhaps thinking differently about taking our nation to war. Amazing what other options can become available when ones own ass or those of your loved ones is on the line.
On Systemic Media Failure: You go with the ignorant electorate you have, not the one you’d rather have.
Since when does the electorate elect the media???
This doesn’t mean 53% believe it was wrong to go to war. Sending troops is a twentieth century form of warfare. The recent report on Special Ops article at TI contains the statement:
So in the twenty first century wars are (a) purchased pre-packaged from corporations, (b) waged by remote control using drones. It is still necessary to supply weapons to various local factions to encourage them to fight against each other, but eventually military robots will take their place.
In the future, the government will simply put out a contract stating a strategic goal. It might be to ‘establish US client states in Kurdistan and Southern Iraq with favorable conditions for the operation of major oil companies’. The private contractor who wins the bid would determine the means to accomplish this goal: war, bribery, threats, covert operations or some combination of these things. This is much more efficient, since it is clear the US public is not equipped to make those sort of highly technical decisions.
Also, Glenn Greenwald neglected to mention that polls are not conducted for public consultation, but to create support for decisions which have already been made. Of course it is always necessary to acknowledge that the last war was a mistake. This demonstrates that lessons have been learned from the previous war, which helps to convince the public that the government must surely have a much better reason for conducting the current war. It is necessary to seek forgiveness for a previous transgression, before launching a new one.
“In the future, the government will simply put out a contract stating a strategic goal.”
But…Mr. Mussolini….the government appears to have clandestinely done that with regard to the formation of IS forces. The following link indicates that it will become a rather lucrative endeavor.
https://public.isishq.com/public/clients/default.aspx
Of course your admirable military and political prowess is evident in your stated analysis of the strategic objective which I reiterate as follows:
“It might be to ‘establish US client states in Kurdistan and Southern Iraq with favorable conditions for the operation of major oil companies’. The private contractor who wins the bid would determine the means to accomplish this goal: war, bribery, threats, covert operations or some combination of these things.”
Naturally, it would be difficult to justify the ongoing “War on Terror”- particularly in Iraq – if the character of the terrorist organization remains unaltered from previous versions. It is therefore necessary for the U.S Government to eat “humble pie” in the propaganda efforts directed toward the re-opening of this old conflict. Although the public is easily swayed, they are not generally devoid of all intelligence.
Commenters at TI are fortunate to have your esteemed viewpoints on such issues.
“This doesn’t mean 53% believe it was wrong to go to war. Sending troops is a twentieth century form of warfare. ”
Indeed, Duce. I’m sure the Italian public approved of entering WWI, at least for the first few battles of the Isonzo. After Caporetto, though, they may have had second thoughts. Going to war is one thing; getting through it, however …
One nice thing about advocating war abroad is it avoids all that messy stuff that happens when you fight wars on your own turf.
Mr. Greenwald:
What can I say in response to your article?
This country touts itself as the “land of the free, the home of the BRAVE.” Given the fact that Americans are so easily and irrationally frightened by the latest
big, bad enemy-of-the day that the PTB parade before them on the TeeVee, I really have to wonder about that whole notion.
The other thing that occurs to me is that it seems that Americans never learn. Again, and again, they repeat the same mistakes–naive, ignorant, and gullible as they are–in trusting and believing their corporate media and the mendacious and corrupt politicians and interests it shills for. And what is truly amazing, is that so many of them do so to the point of sacrificing their sons and daughters to die in senseless wars and military actions.
Absolutely sad and amazing.
At the end of the day, it gets hard to feel sorry or sympathy for a such population . . . one that is always available to be manipulated, fleeced, terrorized, exploited, and conned by those in power above them.
AMERICANS are always looking for something to be afraid of.
These fears, many baseless, are then exploited by the government or commercially. Look at film or TV – damn 2001 September is still the fodder for programming and, even worse, the military-industrial complex is making a fortune from it.
In Europe, and elsewhere, these ‘fears’ are a source of amusement.
Who else, other than the States, needs No Fly Lists, needs all manner of detail of passenger information, who have credit card data available on-line in police offices, who tap into reservation systems in the same way.
Only the States pours money, very, very BIG money, into losers like the CIA? When did the CIA actually prevent anything, except in their dreams? Didn’t prevent 2001 September, didn’t prevent USS Cole, the list is endless yet every year, year after year, Congress gives it billions to do little in return.
The DEA is another joke. Since it’s formation the DEA has failed to reduce drug imports in to the USA yet, again like the CIA, it gets billions of dollars annually for what? Taking out street dealers? The DEA Agents overseas live very comfortably. They are the crew cut types in Bangkok with some good-looking woman draped over their arms, eating at good restaurants, etc.
Homeland Security, a misnomer, is another dollar sink-hole. All it achieves is the harass citizens at airports and maintain the fear level. It also doles out billions so the Ferguson-type police forces can purchase completely unsuitable equipment BUT this maintains the military-industrial base until the next war comes along.
Now the NSA, another even bigger sink-hole, is helping destroy the US IT industry by fitting back-doors in equipment and driving would-be customers into the arms of foreign enterprise. I, nor many companies I know and deal with, would never buy a piece of American network equipment, nor would I use any service based upon computers in the USA. Soon that might be a worldwide exclusion since some judge thinks US law extends into, and is superior to, those of other countries.
Check out those bilateral agreements the US so loves to use to bypass the WTO – another failed enterprise.
The US Government doesn’t seem to accept it is technically bankrupt yet it goes on these drunken spending sprees as if it were the surplus days of Clinton. Like a dying star, the US is going out in a ball of fire, only to survive as a former world power.
So Mr. Greenwald, what should be done about ISIS?
You’re setting yourself up for massive disappointment if you expect a plan of action from Glenn Greenwald.
Because traditionally we have relied upon journalists for our foreign policy and military strategy? Aaaa, ISIS is on the loose! Someone send up the Bat Signal for Katie Couric!
Sorry, I kind of see what you’re getting at, the ‘plan of action’ just struck me as funny. But disagreement with a particular plan of action does imply that either: 1.) There should be no plan of action (which, possibly I can see in this case – I mean, if you stack ISIS up against other violent groups in the world how nefarious do they rank? Are we going after all of those other groups? How many Americans have been killed in other countries by gangs or militia? The difference with ISIS seems to be that they outright state they are against the West, which is certainly a factor, but it’s difficult to know just how much weight to give that factor stacked against actual numbers – in terms of numbers, again, there are plenty of other groups who have been responsible for far more American deaths, and we’re not going after all of them. Nobody’s suggesting an airstrike on the Zetas.) 2.) There is another proposed plan of action that the author has in mind, and criticism is given in light of contrast to this alternate plan.
Still, subtly different than saying journalists should be overtly responsible for crafting plans.
Not his job.
Mind your own damn business, for a start.
Nothing.
It is not our business. We know little to nothing about ISIS or local politics in Iraq (as 10 plus years of failure demonstrates). Maybe we should let the people who live there decide their own fate.
Who were the 9/11 attackers? : Almost all of them were Saudi.
Who was surveilling the 9/11 attackers? : Mossad.
Who have been the major ISIS funders? : Saudis, of course.
Who are the staunchest US allies in the Middle East? : Israel and Saudi Arabia.
What does that all mean? : It’s all just chance ;)
all good points. the House of Saud is no friend to Uncle Sam, that’s for sure!
You forgot the USS Liberty – a ship that was illegally attacked and destroyed by Israel, killing many US citizens, after it acquired evidence that the Israeli’s were mass killing Palestinians who were shot as they sat with their hands bound with zip-ties.
I also left out Israel’s threat to nuke Cairo, and Russia’s counterthreat to nuke Tel Aviv :(
You guys are very cynical!
Shh…The truth will imprison you.I bet the traitors are working on legislation to make that reality.And no,we aint cynical,its the Zionists who are the cynics.
” … a means of arguing that able-bodied people who advocate war have the obligation to fight in those wars rather than risking other people’s lives to do so …”
Here’s a thought: aside from the idea that they’re sending someone else’s kids to fight, kids, who, by the way, have few career prospects in our economy other than the military, how about the money? They won’t fight in these wars, but they won’t pay for them either. If the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq were so existentially essential for the country, why didn’t these warhawks budget for it, instead of running up a deficit? From 2001 to now they’ve yet to sell a single War Bond.
By the way, Glenn, a fun fact: the American public didn’t think World War I was such a good idea, either.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/11/14/920157/-Surprising-American-public-opinion-on-wars-past-and-present#
“From 2001 to now they’ve yet to sell a single War Bond”
I’ve been asking “concerned” conservatives about this fiscal misstep since the beginning. The answer, of course, echoes their ringleader, Bush: “Just go shopping.”
War Bonds?Our taxes are our war bonds,as they fund all this stuff by fiat from quisling Congress Critters.
Propaganda. Works. Still. Thanks for offering the truth, Glenn, but people won’t want to hear it until the US economy collapses.
excerpt:
Before accepting CNN’s claims about what “Americans favor”, we should look at the language of the poll questions and what the methodology of the pollsters was.
Who was polled? Who was not polled? What do we know about the assumptions and worldviews of those who participated and were “counted”? Did CNN ask respondents about their sources of information on, and fund of knowledge about, US policy and history? It’s not hard to imagine that someone who answered the questionnaire, who was a longtime or even a casual consumer of Beltway media, would provide answers that match up with the pro-imperial narratives. Did these “Americans” express doubts about official claims? Did they exhibit much capacity for critical thinking, skepticism, a healthy distrust of policymakers and propagandists? Were they familiar with Washington’s record of lying and deception? Did they believe that US officials–in Congress, in the Pentagon, in the White House, in the State Department–and the media were unreliable, discredited, not deserving of the public’s trust? Again, one can predict that the more informed someone was about the reality of US policy, the less likely that person would be persuaded by the hysterical, baseless assertions by somber-faced media personalities or government officials.
What kind of options were made available to the respondents? Was it a choice of WHICH KIND of weapons to use, or WHEN to use military force? What premises and assumptions were unstated or implied? What fallacies did the questions contain?
I have no delusions about CNN. The network is not going to conduct high quality polls. It’s function is to obscure, rather than reveal the superficial knowledge of its viewers and the lay public. Polls are done to promote and popularize and normalize certain perceptions and certain policies. When we discuss these public-opinion-manipulating-instruments, we should examine them to understand and expose the motivations and attitudes and agendas embedded within such tools. The imperialists are less interested in “what the public thinks” than in “the perception of what the public thinks.”
Who is conducting polls to see what the public’s priorities are? I imagine that the topmost priorities remain economic. What if respondents were given information about the costs of imperialism and militarism in the question prompt, and what if it was disclosed to the Americans being polled, that Washington had a long history of supporting and developing and using right wing terrorist groups and networks?
Consider how much information is kept from the American public–how the American public is kept in the dark about the human and economic costs of the ruling class’ violence, terrorism, propaganda, and quest for world domination.
Only after Americans have had some exposure to this information, and had time to process it, and to think about what’s really important, and who is paying and who is benefiting, and what a different world we could make, can Americans participate as responsible, informed members of the human race to poll questions about what the Empire should do.
Everyday I become more and more ashamed of the depth of the ignorance of my fellow citizens.
We live in the first and only “information age” We have almost immediate access to information as it happens around the world. The lies that have been told since 911 are archived, recorded, an available to review.
There is absolutely no way anyone with half a brain can look back at the last 13 years and believe they live in a free and democratic nation.
But that hasn’t stopped them from re-electing a war criminal guilty of treason and then from re-electing a constitutional scholar who said on day one he had no intentions of investigating the most criminal president in the history of this country.
We are to the “hail mary” stage of this country. No amount of red team vs blue team is going to fix this. In fact I suspect the majority is only a game anymore to maintain the facade of a two party democracy.
There are entirely to many federal and international felony crimes that have been swept under the rug with absolutely NO ONE in law enforcement doing anything about it.
The time to “talk” about this problem has long since passed. And “the end” can’t be far in the future.
If your grand parents were born in this country, you are already a minority. We have entire major cities where Americans are now minorities. We have 7 entire states that accept more government financial aide then the states pay into the federal government. The financial collapse of this country is a mathematical certainty.
And STILL my fellow Americans continue to re-elect the same criminals year after year then bemoan the quality or lack there of in our government officials.
Seriously America, Whats it going to take? What do you have to lose to wake up? Your house? Your finances? Your future? You families? What will it take?
And then…….. What will you do when its too late?
Given that boots are not going to be on the ground, I assume this new ‘war’ will have roughly the same place in the American consciousness as the recent airstrikes in Libya – almost none.
I like your work a lot Glenn. It resonates with me and I agree with your take on the current media/political/cultural environment, in the U.S. and beyond. The government, through today’s subservient and mindless media, same as with religious institutions, can say whatever they want and say, to sell whichever story they wish to sell and gain support for whatever motive they are trying to push, as ignorant, wrong, and obscure as it may be (as it usually is). Problem is, that people choose to believe it…this phenomenon goes far far deeper and it is much older than what people that rise against it, realize and talk about. I’m not sure if you will even read my post but this points a little more in the direction of the real, underlying, deeper problem. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qcga8ATBNh0
Mr. Greenwald
“……The answer given by much of the U.S. media, as FAIR documented, seems clear: to “flex muscles” and show “toughness”……What kind of country goes around bombing people with no strategic purpose and with little motive other than to “flex muscles” and “show toughness”?…..”
While it is true that the political situation in Iraq is particularly complex, the US has intervened with strategic short and long term goals to stabilize the country. First, Obama has correctly said numerous times that the ISIS problem in Iraq requires a political solution because many of the politically marginalized Sunnis are fighting on the side of ISIS (as they did with al-Qaeda before the surge in 2007). The first step has been to pressure Iraq into forming a more inclusive government with the hope of turning Sunnis against the brutal ISIS. The Maliki government resigned. Second, the ISIS took over an important dam with the potential to flood some Iraqi cities. US airstrikes helped Iraqis reclaim the dam. Third, the US helped the Kurds turn back the ISIS with airstrikes. The Kurds are a US ally. According to Al Arabiya on August 3rd,
“……..Fighters from the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS) took over Iraq’s biggest dam unopposed by Kurdish fighters, who also lost three towns and an oilfield on Sunday to the Sunni militant group, witnesses said…….Control of the dam could give ISIS, which has threatened to march on Baghdad, the ability to flood major cities………ISIS also seized two small towns in northern Iraq after driving out Kurdish security forces, officials and residents said……..The fresh gains by the Sunni extremist militants have forced dozens of residents to flee from the religiously mixed towns of Zumar and Sinjar, near the militant-held city of Mosul, to the northern self-ruled Kurdish region…….”
Fourth, the Yazidis were ethnically cleansed from their homes and threatened with mass murder which also rightly brought a US response. The Yazidis escaped with the help of many people in Iraq.
Obama is supposed to announce a long term strategy for dealing with ISIS Wednesday, but my guess is that the Iraqi army will operate on the ground with US air support. Sunnis must be brought under the big political tent for any strategy to work, however. In addition, the Iraqi army turned tail and ran from ISIS so more training will be necessary. Regardless, fighting will likely take place in cities like Mosul and will be bloody. Finally, the US should do nothing in Syria which might help the murderer Assad stay in power.
“……In 2012, for instance, Pakistani teenager Tariq Kahn attended an anti-drone meeting, and then days later, was “decapitated” by a U.S. missile – the high-tech version of beheading – and his 12-year-old cousin was also killed by that drone…..”
One of the most unfortunate aspects of war is that civilians are always going to be killed, but the only reason that the US is droning terrorists in Pakistan is because the Pakistan government provides a safe haven for (Afghanistan) Taliban fighters in Pakistan for geopolitical reasons. The Pakistan government has brought the war to Pakistan and therefore, they are responsible for the deaths of innocent civilians in Pakistan. In addition, the Pakistan government supports the (Afghanistan) Taliban who are responsible for 75% of the civilian deaths in Afghanistan.
This CraigSummers guy is addicted to being an ass hole. There is no other way to explain his consistent assholery.
“…….This CraigSummers guy is addicted to being an ass hole. There is no other way to explain his consistent assholery……”
I find absolutely nothing to disagree with on that statement. Thanks for the well thought out response.
Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose…
Craig, here’s Gen William Odem, writing in 2005 against the Surge:
– See more at: http://niemanwatchdog.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=ask_this.view&askthisid=129#sthash.nDhcmQOl.dpuf
So Craig. We fucked up royally in Iraq already, and the sectarian war and instability we unleashed was wholly predictable. Apparently, you feel we now need to just keep returning to fix that which we caused. Which will keep the cycle of anti-American resentment, terrorism and war going along well into forever.
Mona
The most important point is that General Odem was wrong about the surge in Iraq. Above everything else, the surge was a political solution to the Sunni-Shia divide in the new Iraq rightly ruled by the Shia majority. Sunnis turned on the brutal al-Qaeda in Iraq. That’s the model that Obama is following to help defeat ISIS who draw a significant amount of western Muslims to their cause (which is murdering mostly Muslims for power). One point that is well worth looking at when reviewing what Odem said.
“……Imposing a liberal constitutional order in Iraq would be to accomplish something that has never been done before. Of all the world’s political cultures, an Arab-Muslim one may be the most resistant to such a change of any in the world…….”
There is certainly some truth to that statement, but I wonder what Odem would say today as he watched hundreds of thousands of people over the past several years march for political rights (freedom) in the same region he suggested a liberal democracy couldn’t be imposed. And notice that no one “imposed” these people to march and die by the thousands. Cultures are a powerful influence on people, but it is also powerful dictators propped up by powerful countries (like the US and Russia) and regional conflict (Iran and Saudi Arabia) which prevents democratic change. So Odem was only partially right on that account. He was guilty of simplifying a complex problem which will take decades to fix.
Thanks.
“When I began writing about politics in 2005, it was very common to hear the “chickenhawk” slur cast about. Since January, 2009, I’ve almost never heard that phrase. How come?”
Glenn, Glenn. Come on now — get with the program!! It’s because Democrat bloggers who were calling conservatives “chickenhawk” circa 2005, are now too busy accusing conservatives who don’t back Obama 100% “America Haters”. Don’t you know that the names you are called and the accusations you receive are wholly dependent upon WHO is in office and WHICH party they represent?
You forgot to mention US ally Saudi Arabia is on track to behead 80 people before the year is out .. in a nation where new age literature can get your head lopped off for witchcraft. Certainly there is a litany of possible motives for ‘terrorizing’ the American people with media. Insofar as ‘air power’ and the experts, why is their no questioning the most expensive and least effective approach employing fighter-bombers as presently employed strategy, with the A-10 ground attack jet sitting on the tarmac at home? But I agree, air power (and military intervention generally) is about as effective in radicalizing people as it gets, and using military to stem radicalized elements is like trying to put out white phosphorus by slapping it with a shovel, it’s only going to spread…
http://ronaldthomaswest.com/2014/09/08/nato-noise-military-mafia/
^ The Islamic State for Dummies Part 2 (the facts integrated satire with corrected link to the proper story at articles conclusion)
ISIS sleeper cells exist in the US, so bomb the Middle East. I don’t follow the logic
Because if ISIS is destroyed, those will no longer be ISIS sleeper cells. Derp, libtard!
You can’t follow the logic because there is no logic to follow.
Such cynicism. Call it insanity if you wish, but it’s mathematically certain that invading the Middle East over and over again will eventually produce a different result. Even if it does not, it at least provides a similar sort of satisfaction to picking at a scab.
In retrospect, the Coalition of the Willing was a bad idea. It makes the other countries sound like a bunch of dupes. A Core Coalition is a great improvement. It makes the other countries sound as though they’re getting a share of the spoils, and limiting it to 10 members means that everyone gets a bigger cut.
I suggest it be called “The Common Core Coalition.” Ties in the much revered homeland privatization & commidification of education, and the ongoing rewarding of defense contracts into one tidy bundle. Less government waste that way, and a win-win for all bona fide Americans…err..stakeholders, for sure.
Ok, the point is that during the Iraq war, war opponents (liberals) were challenging war supporters (republicans) to fight in the war they were supporting. Examples from the two links in the quoted paragraph:
So, the question is why isn’t anyone being challenged in the same way since Obama started declaring the wars, and the point is (liberal) hypocrisy. That’s fine, but this is not:
I really can’t imagine why you would do this. Maybe you can explain. Kory is giving the exact same answer you would have given in 2005, and you know it. It’s the same answer Ben Ferguson gave, and the same answer any honest, thinking person would give:
Have you changed your mind about the validity of this argument that you once considered “inane on its face”? If not, why are you using an argument that you know is invalid?
barncat, where are you quoting this from:
@Mona – Sorry, this de facto one link per comment limit is a huge inconvenience.
https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/509099380448952320
It doesn’t seem to me that that is an issue any longer. I’ve seen lots of comments with several links, and I think I’ve posted one or some multiple link comments myself. Not sure about that but I don’t try not to anymore because, as I said, that spam filter bug seems to have been corrected.
Testing right now: Kevin Gosztola — Armored Vehicle Manufacturer Flips out…
And:
Brittany Haas and others Fiddle guitar and stand up bass
“I’ve seen lots of comments with several links, and I think I’ve posted one or some multiple link comments myself. Not sure about that but I don’t try not to anymore because, as I said, that spam filter bug seems to have been corrected.” – Kitt
Spam filter bug? When I repeatedly attributed the restriction on multiple links to the spam filter, Mona denied that this was the case.
The spam filter is governed by a set of programmable options. Thus, it is far more probable that the filter was doing exactly that which it was instructed to do. The acknowledgement of this fact will never see the light of day however as such limitations speak to the degree to which the depth of contrarian commentary is being intentionally stymied.
Ok. Glenn isn’t making a “chickenhawk” argument. He’s asking why, if the need to oppose ISIS is so dire, Kory isn’t signing up.
@Mona –
And, IF that’s not essentially the same as the “chickenhawk” argument that he rejected, is it less inane? What is it supposed to prove? Is the premise that if Kory truly believed that the ISIS threat was so dire, he would participate in the fighting, or provide a good reason why he could not? If someone argues for the necessity of a military action, but declines to participate in the fighting, and does not satisfactorily explain their unwillingness to fight, is that supposed to indicate a self-contradiction? If not, what is the point of the question? If so, isn’t that still totally inane on its face? In fact, Greenwald’s rebuttal to the “chickenhawk” argument would seem to work equally well against it:
Are you saying that Greenwald would not approve of those revisions? The need for “majority” popular support is the same. First, as a group, we decide on the need for the action; then we decide who is going to perform the action. The second question is completely separate. And, in reality, it’s also completely academic because “as of 31 December 2013, 1,369,532 people were on active duty in the armed forces, with an additional 850,880 people in the seven reserve components” (Wikipedia). So, there is no need for Kory to sign up if he hasn’t already. Even if the question isn’t the same as the “chickenhawk” argument, it appears to be equally inane.
No. I’m saying he is not making a chickenhawk argument. To quote him from above, and note my emphasis:
Many, many of the liberals/progressives who opposed the Iraq war levelled the chickenhawk accusation at the war’s supporters. These days, however — since January of 2009 — we don’t hear it.
Why not?
if the intent is to “destroy” the insurgency, that requires a level of commitment that needs to be discussed in good faith. That means something comparable to the occupation of Japan and Germany post WW II. It almost certainly means a draft.
If the intent is not to “destroy” the insurgency, then the presentation of an existential threat (“we have to do something!”) is phony bullshit. At best its wants to kick a can down an endless road, at worst it pretends there are military solutions where there are none.
@Mona –
You’re not even paying attention. It’s in the two tweets I quoted that he’s making the chickenhawk argument. You asked me for the link to one of them, remember?
And it IS the same chickenhawk argument he rejected in 2005:
Obviously, the two links in that sentence (italicized), are supposed to point to examples of the chickenhawk argument. And if you look at what I quoted from the links in my first comment, they match the tweets perfectly. Randi Rhodes is putting the exact same question to Ben Ferguson that Greenwald put to Kory and Lalo M. on twitter. Rhodes: Why aren’t you there? Then go. On twitter, Greenwald is using the same “chickenhawk slur” against Kory that Rhodes used against Ben Ferguson. So, once again, my question is whether he’s changed his mind about the validity of the argument that he once considered a “slur” and “inane on its face”. And, if not, why is he using an argument that he knows is invalid?
No. It is not. 1. Glenn didn’t use the term “chickenhawk.” He merely asked Kory if he was going to sign up. Kory then proceeded to spout all the stuff those accused of being chickenhawks did in the Iraq war. Glenn accepted all these explanations in silence. 2. Glenn made a particular point in his post that this accusation has not been leveled much since January 20, 2009; he “wondered” why that is.
My *guess* is that Glenn was waiting for an Obot to defend Kory, an Obot who had used the “chickenhawk” slur back in Bush days. Only Glenn would know, but given that set up, it’s what I would have done.
Because what Glenn wants to know is, why has that slur suddenly all but disappeared?
@barncat
It’s two different eras. Pre-Twitter, it was necessary to build an argument based on logic. This isn’t possible on Twitter, so name calling is now widely accepted as a valid form of argument. This actually makes debate much more democratic, since previously those trained in logic or in possession of the facts had an unfair advantage.
@Mona –
That’s silly. What was the point of his “merely asking”? It could only have been a challenge, and that’s confirmed by the second tweet. (“Yes, my solution is that able-bodied people screaming that ISIS must be chased to the gates of hell sign up to help do that.”) In both tweets, he did the exact same thing Randi Rhodes did when she challenged Ben Ferguson to go to Iraq. And the word “chickenhawk” appears nowhere in their exchange.
Once again, you’re not paying attention. I explained the purpose of his paragraph in my original comment. I pointed out the hypocrisy, then segued into my criticism of the tweets: “So, the question is why isn’t anyone being challenged in the same way since Obama started declaring the wars, and the point is (liberal) hypocrisy. That’s fine, but this is not:”. The argument that Greenwald was making in the column has NOTHING to do with my criticism of the tweets.
This one is too clear and simple, Mona. You’re going to have to give it up. Have you considered the possibility that since 2005 he might have changed his mind about the validity of the argument? It’s possible. Hopefully he’ll let us know.
@Benito Mussolini –
Thank you, sir, for respectfully addressing me with a serious and sensible argument. If other commenters are repulsed by your ideology, I wish they could at least learn to emulate the dignity you bring to these discussions.
About a half a hour ago I posted a comment with two links in reply to your comment in order to test if the multiple links problem was still happening. I had thought that it had been resolved. I’ve seen some comments with multiple links, so I works okay sometimes, but my comment has yet to show. So … damn it.
“Have you changed your mind about the validity of this argument that you once considered “inane on its face”? If not, why are you using an argument that you know is invalid?” – barncat to Glenn Greenwald
The rest of the story, from Greenwalds post, circa 2005:
“this does not mean, or even imply, that their views about war and foreign policy are wrong, nor does it mean that they ought to be excluded from participating in debates over these issues. But there is simply no denying that there is something missing inside men like this — what is missing are the precise masculine-warrior attributes they revere. The contrast between their belligerent, tough guy rhetoric, on the one hand, and their physical awkwardness, their history of avoiding rather than seeking physical conflict and war for themselves, and their unseemly need to establish their own manhood the only way they know how (with risk-free words), on the other hand, is really too glaring not to notice.” – Glenn Greenwald
My view: Have the children or nearest relatives of all those who have the legal authority to wage war on our behalf be the first boots on the ground. Period. No exceptions.
A correction (h/t suave): Re: “Children of those who have the legal authority to wage war on our behalf” I should have been clearer:
“I should have said “grown children of legal age” or “nearest relatives of legal age.”
My point being that the warmongers and lawmakers over the past decades have all too often abdicated both their own personal responsibility and those of their legal-aged loved ones when considering taking our country to war, and having to feel the consequences directly, as the remainder of American citizens of legal age have had to do (with a draft scenario) or because of predominantly economic reasons (with the “volunteer armed forces”) protects them from facing such consequences, and thus perhaps thinking differently about taking our nation to war.
Amazing what other options can become available when ones own ass or those of your loved ones is on the line.
Most of the American public do not advocate for war,even if they support such,but the people who do advocate the war should,if the proper age,volunteer their services other than bloviation,and enlist.But they do not,and that reeks of hypocrisy.
Oh! And! If Americans are so damned sure that ISIS has sleeper cells in the US, how do they propose finding them? And, when they decide those cells are hiding right under their noses, which US suburban neighborhoods do these Americans propose droning first?
A patriotic Merkin on Twitter suspects these cells are in Michigan and Minnesota. So, I’d guess droning Dearborn, Detroit and perhaps Ann Arbor in Michigan, along with Duluth and Winona, in Minnesota.
Or they can send the police or a SWAT team. Drones have only been used in countries that are unable (Somalia) or unwilling (Pakistan) to detain and arrest members of criminal organizations. Do you think the drone attack that killed Al Shabab leader was wrong?
Yes, and one day in the not too distant and all but inevitable future when a foreign-piloted drone fires a missile into your country, you may begin to understand part of the reason why.
If Al Shabab killed your great leader Obomba,would that be wrong?Doesn’t war work both ways?If our Potus(Bubba bent dick)verbally(as Obomba with Isis) declared war and bombed ACIAda,could they reciprocate as everyone alleges they did?
Actually Al Shabab is doing worse than that. It is targeting and killing innocent civilians. It is not even a secret, it makes sure the world knows how extremist and violent it is.
How oblivious can the people be? I know. Asked and answered. We have been in Afghanistan since shortly after 9/11, just got out of Iraq where we were for a decade and our second go around at that and the majority support military involvement once again there. How insane does it have to get to wake people up. Would the polls show different results if we still had the draft? How about a requirement for voting for war is you have to serve at least some time in that war? No service, no war.
Where does one find the evidence to support ISIS sleeper cells in America?
Apologies for the shouting – but I for one am sick and tired of running American foreign policy on gut-feelings and fear.
So if any intrepid reporter can at least nail a government officials ass to a chair long enough to get the actual data on this, it would be very much appreciated.
I can’t seem to find any, but perhaps that’s just because all of my contacts have simply clammed up.
I’ve sent my lizard brain on an indefinite vacation. That part of my brain that operates without the lizard’s influence looked under the beds, in the closets, checked all the outbuildings on the farm, took out the binocs and checked the corn and alfalfa fields, checked the hedgerows and the barrow ditches and saw nothing out of place. Neither the dust-bunnies, nor the stray socks are out of position.
For my money, Obama, his neocon friends, and their squawking chicken hawks – who ought to be denuded having flapped their feathers *everywhere* since 9.11 – can go shove one of those stray socks I found in it.
I’m sure not inclined to take ISIS/L’s word for sleeper cells in the USA. I haven’t the foggiest damned idea why the media or POTUS thinks I should.
Good Work Mr Greenwald.
Isis is a CIA/MI6 operation which is sponsored by the Federal Reserve and other central banks with the goal of world domination. They use these muslim group creations as an excuse to strip away our rights.
Listen, if Isis starts attacking Americans on American soil then there is only one thing left to do. That is for “we the people” to unite and kill all Isis participants along with every government and military traitor who allowed America to be conquered from within. Death to traitors.
Hey,I like your attitude,but maybe ISIS would be a liberating force for America,to take care of those traitors within.
Glen; Cannot agree with many of your thoughts well expressed here. My understanding is that no US acting alone scenario is planned. The use of force as Obama stated already, and presumably will flesh out on Wednesday, is to use drones, fighter jets, and helicopters and the C-10 type of low level aircraft (the warthog) to help the Iraqi and Kurdish militaries get rid of IS in Iraq which they apparently cannot do alone. Things may well develop into helping selected militants in Syria as well to do the same thing, in fact I expect this. The justification is the absolutely proven savagery of IS, their brutality is hard to adequately describe. They published videos not only of the two journalists being be-headed (with more promised) but also of the slaughter of literally hundreds and hundreds of captives, including women and children. We know this is true because they posted the videos themselves and this is authenticity. They even force children to watch the executions, there are authentic videos showing this. If we stay out of it all they will continue their ethnic cleansing and slaughter of so many people. This must be stopped, but primarily in Iraq by the kurds, shia and sunni militias working together, and by the Iraqi military (all with help from the West). In Syria something must be done as well but this is not anyway near as clear. I don’t know the name of the perverted, sick, depraved person that coined the term “Collateral Damage” to sanitise the slaughter from indescriminate bombing that was attempting to get a single enemy while killing a lot of totally innocent people. Such as we have seen in Gaza in the last few weeks. If this is repeated in the “new” round of helping the Iraquis to rid themselves of the IS curse I will be surprised because the Western assistance is to be given to militaries helping them on a battlefield, with well defined targets. At least that is my understanding. Surely nobody is suggesting we all sit back and watch the IS atrocities continue and do nothing.
What single thing you’ve stated there has not been done for a decade and counting about, say, the Taliban? Every damned ‘novel’ idea you wrote about has been done over and over and over and over again.
Our good friend Mr. O’Farrell needs to check out what Andrew Sullivan (Yes; the same Andrew Sullivan who cheered on the Iraq war.) had to say:
At least *some* of those former war cheerleaders are capable of learning. Pity the same can’t be said of Mr. O’Farrell.
http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2014/09/08/the-best-of-the-dish-today-211/
That struck me as surreal as well when I read it in the original NYT article.
Then what do you think should be done? I repeat that the US action is not going it alone, but being part of a group that will assist the Kurds and Iraqi to fight for their own people. Not lead them, assist them. As for the establishment of IS cells in the US that Glen wrote about of course he has a good point, the notion is not entirely stupid but mostly so, it is vaguely possible but not likely. And if the Pentagon et. al. think they need to use this threat to drum up support then they are just being ridiculous again.
I repeat that the US action is not going it alone, but being part of a group…
You’re still not thinking this through. And, you’re determinedly ignoring all the of the most recent history and the lived experiences, therein. One small modification to Sullivan’s observation would encompass your, Yeah, but… reproduced above.
If the only tool you have is a hammer… Maybe it’s time to consider developing other tools. And, the fact that a better tool, or more effective tool, doesn’t seem to be readily available does not provide a warrant or justification to pull out the hammer.
We’re determined to get it right this time. We can do it better because…. actually I can’t think of a reason.
A new Iraqi government has just been announced, prominent are both Shia and Sunni. There is an issue about filling two of the minister positions. Which may be resolved by now. Andrew Sullivan says there is no such Government? One stipulation Obama had before he agreed to really be of solid help to the Iraquis was that such a new Government had to be in place and he refused to help as long as the ex-PM Malaki was still in office. Malaki is now gone. As for the degree to which the new Government will actually be a Government of Unity in it’s real meaning let’s not pre-judge in the negative, they might just surprise us.
Do you watch the pentagon correspondents for the big three evening news programs, NBC, CBS, ABC?
With their stern faces and dire warnings, anyone would be scared.
The insane delusion that ISIS “sleeper cells” checker the United States brings to mind some words from Voltaire. He was addressing religion and resulting wars over same, but the principle applies here:
Well said Mona – and the overriding message here seems to me to be that violence begets violence – over and over again – and the same thing holds true for misinformation.
We need to have a lot more open discourse about these issues world-wide, and a lot less jingoistic knee-jerk-ism in order to make any progress at all.
“There is a stubbornness about me that never can bear to be frightened at the will of others. My courage always rises at every attempt to intimidate me.”
– Jane Austen, Pride and Prejudice
“What kind of country goes around bombing people with no strategic purpose and with little motive other than to “flex muscles” and “show toughness”?” – well, isn’t that what the terrorists are actually about?
The West? Corporate terrorism?
This is the ‘distributor’ of the Sotloff video.
http://www.ibtimes.com/inside-site-intelligence-group-steven-sotloff-beheading-discovered-little-known-research-1676236
Given ISIS’ western influence/media savvy, it’s a safe bet the video was supplied directly to Rita Katz’ organization.
more on Katz and SITE, per wiki
@BenjaminAP – Thanks, I had not heard of this “federally and privately funded” for profit intel group before.
It seems we are commodifying everything except actual fact based solutions and common sense.
Direct link to SITE: https://www.siteintelgroup.com/
““I must say a word about fear. It is life’s only true opponent. Only fear can defeat life. It is a clever, treacherous adversary, how well I know. It has no decency, respects no law or convention, shows no mercy. It goes for your weakest spot, which it finds with unnerving ease. It begins in your mind, always … so you must fight hard to express it. You must fight hard to shine the light of words upon it. Because if you don’t, if your fear becomes a wordless darkness that you avoid, perhaps even manage to forget, you open yourself to further attacks of fear because you never truly fought the opponent who defeated you.”
– Yann Martel, Life of Pi
“There is no such thing as common sense!” – Margaret Thatcher on privatizing sense
Another “common sense” notion held by the (pig) Iron (headed) Lady:
“There’s no such thing as society,” Margaret Thatcher once declared. “There are individual men and women and there are families.”
Yes, right up there with the Bush(s) & the other Western warmongers in reasoning capabilities.
as Corey Robin notes, it’s the “and there are families” bit that gives away the goose…
http://coreyrobin.com/2011/07/19/why-the-left-gets-neoliberalism-wrong-its-the-feudalism-stupid/
Mr. Glenn…. (reads article, looks confused, makes doe eyes)… are… are *you an ISIS sleeper cell?
Well, I hate to respond to your many polls above (which were amusing in a sad way… mistake… mistake… mistake… TOTALLY DIFFERENT THIS TIME!!) with reports about the funny feeling in my stomach that just tells me things, but I do think that we are trending away from interventionism at the moment. I have always found myself agreeing with the zeitgeist of the moment, without any conscious intent to do so. In recent years, I would look at those “If you’re not outraged you’re not paying attention” bumper stickers, and think “That driver is a deluded hippie”. But now I find myself sighing that people just don’t *get it, you can’t make peace through war, in a dramatic and vaguely snobbish manner, which I can only assume is some wind of change triggering the zeitgeist radar in my brain. When too many other people start sighing in this manner it will become unfashionable and then I may advocate invading Canada because it will be cool retro militarism, like Duck Dynasty beards are ironically cool now. In the meantime, however, I am cultivating a Look for when the topic arises, that attempts to convey that my views are far more highly evolved and also I am wearing vegan footwear all in one. It’s a really tricky expression, I’ve been practicing in the mirror a lot, but that’s off topic. Besides, my attention span is limited and I’m now wondering if I should shift my freak-out neurons to the south, since drug cartels are a lot closer and pretty scary: http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/news/2013/05/20/more-americans-murdered-in-mexico-than-any-other-country-in-world/ .
Which reminds me… (makes doe eyes) Mr. Glenn… are… are you in a drug cartel? Is that why you’re so big on privacy, so you can move your shipments and stuff? Are you an ISIS sleeper cell who is working with the Zetas to steal R&D secrets that will allow you to grow new forms of wacky weed?!? Are you?! Just asking questions. Anyways.
David Foster Wallace asked the right question…
“Are some things still worth dying for? Is the American idea* one such thing? Are you up for a thought experiment? What if we chose to regard the 2,973 innocents killed in the atrocities of 9/11 not as victims but as democratic martyrs, “sacrifices on the altar of freedom”?* In other words, what if we decided that a certain baseline vulnerability to terrorism is part of the price of the American idea? And, thus, that ours is a generation of Americans called to make great sacrifices in order to preserve our democratic way of life—sacrifices not just of our soldiers and money but of our personal safety and comfort?
In still other words, what if we chose to accept the fact that every few years, despite all reasonable precautions, some hundreds or thousands of us may die in the sort of ghastly terrorist attack that a democratic republic cannot 100-percent protect itself from without subverting the very principles that make it worth protecting?
Is this thought experiment monstrous? Would it be monstrous to refer to the 40,000-plus domestic highway deaths we accept each year because the mobility and autonomy of the car are evidently worth that high price? Is monstrousness why no serious public figure now will speak of the delusory trade-off of liberty for safety that Ben Franklin warned about more than 200 years ago? What exactly has changed between Franklin’s time and ours? Why now can we not have a serious national conversation about sacrifice, the inevitability of sacrifice—either of (a) some portion of safety or (b) some portion of the rights and protections that make the American idea so incalculably precious?
In the absence of such a conversation, can we trust our elected leaders to value and protect the American idea as they act to secure the homeland? What are the effects on the American idea of Guantánamo, Abu Ghraib, PATRIOT Acts I and II, warrantless surveillance, Executive Order 13233, corporate contractors performing military functions, the Military Commissions Act, NSPD 51, etc., etc.? Assume for a moment that some of these measures really have helped make our persons and property safer—are they worth it? Where and when was the public debate on whether they’re worth it? Was there no such debate because we’re not capable of having or demanding one? Why not? Have we actually become so selfish and scared that we don’t even want to consider whether some things trump safety? What kind of future does that augur?
FOOTNOTES:
1. Given the strict Gramm-Rudmanewque space limit here, let’s just please all agree that we generally know what this term connotes—an open society, consent of the governed, enumerated powers, Federalist 10, pluralism, due process, transparency … the whole democratic roil.
2. (This phrase is Lincoln’s, more or less)”
“Have we actually become so selfish and scared that we don’t even want to consider whether some things trump safety? What kind of future does that augur?”
It seems we have – and we are living that future right now because of these unmade decisions and these unasked and/or unanswered questions. Ultimately these are the things we must discuss and resolve – because all of the evidence points out that what we are doing is not having the desired end result.
And no, sacrificing Americans or any other persons for the sake of individual liberties, the rule of law or constitutional principles is not what is being proposed here – retaining and regaining those individual liberties, the rule of law and constitutional principles is.
“If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.” – From the song “Freewill” by RUSH
I’m and American. Blaming the ignorance and stupidity of masses of my fellow Americans on the media wrong, and distracts from the real villains – the individuals who are ignorant and/or stupid. Those who support wars and invasions are wholly responsible for their views. It’s a phony excuse to suggest that they aren’t responsible because they were given bad information by the media, or anyone else. It is incumbent on every individual to think and act rationally and morally. As an adult its your responsibility to be minimally informed enough to make reasoned decisions and take reasoned positions. Those in the media who beat the drums of war and act as stenographers for those in power are certainly scum, and are responsible for their actions and their positions, but their culpability in no way lessens or mitigates the culpability of people who adopt their positions, mindlessly or not.
Barry, there is some truth to your argument, though I still think the typical American voter is woefully uninformed thanks in part to a sense that we are an exceptional people and can operate anywhere with impunity, but also in part to FOX-ification of the news. Even the so-called mainstream liberal media is “embedded” or slavishly deferential to the government, so Americans just don’t get accurate news. Any half-baked excuse for invading another country is presented as fact by the MSM. Remember the Maine? Gulf of Tonkin? WMD’s in Iraq? This has been going on for a long time.
Thirteen years ago some dimwit told me that Saddam was responsible for 9/11. Where did he get this information? From the government via the media. Follow the money, follow the articles. Sure, we all have an obligation to dig beneath the surface. But frankly — some of us can do our tax returns ourself — and some of us cannot. Same with sorting through all the propaganda and noise we receive daily.
I blame the press more than the hapless voter who dutifully believes what his government tells him — in the morning paper.
Joe I agree with you about the typical American voter, and I agree with you about Americans not getting accurate news, but I’m not so sure that it’s our government that controls media biases and messaging. Please keep in mind that there is a wide spectrum there, with Breitbart-type perspectives on the right side and Alternet-type perspectives on the left, as well as everything in between, so obviously content varies.
Regarding your comment about Saddam’s role in 911, you might want to click on Greenwald’s red-typeface link above, which will take you to the 2003 NPR Jeffrey Goldberg interview that implies a working relationship between Al Quaeda and Saddam Hussein. With the benefit of hindsight, it’s pretty interesting.
In fact, I thought it was so interesting that I then followed the trail to what I learned is widely regarded as Jeffrey Goldberg’s opus magnum from the March 2002 edition of the New Yorker, entitled “The Great Terror.” This article is well written and emotionally affecting, and describes an oppressed minority being terrorized, murdered and ethnically cleansed by their government, though it has nothing to do with Gaza, or the plight of Palestinians in Greater Israel. It’s about the Kurds in northern Iraq, who Saddam Hussein liked to slaughter with nerve gas attacks, using all kinds of horrible cocktail combinations to produce the most horrifically painful and damaging results in his victims.
Anyway, after Goldberg ratchets up all kinds of sympathy for the Kurdish people, who by the way deserve it, he then moves the article in other directions, starting, I think around section 6 and on, where he makes what seems to me a relatively tenuous case that Al Quaeda and Saddam Hussein have some kind of ongoing strategic alliance, or something to that effect. There’s a lot of implying going on in this section, but I can imagine that by that point, angry inflamed readers still pissed about 911 wouldn’t need real facts or evidence to make the leap that the same bad guys who took down the Towers are the same bad guys gassing the Kurds, and that’s how you begin building enthusiasm for waging war. With just a few suggestions and nudges.
Its a long, long article, but I do think it bears mentioning, that I think it’s sometime around section 8 and after Goldberg explores his last major theme, which (surprise!) dovetails American and Israeli interests vis a vis Iraq. Now the tone becomes more urgent and ominous as Goldberg quotes various Kurdish officials and Israeli academic experts, who all opine that Saddam’s endgame is to use his WMDs, (both poison gas and/or hopefully a nuclear bomb) to wipe Israel off the map, forever.
This comment’s too long already, so I’ll stop talking, but to get back to what you were saying, Joe, I think it’s more likely if Goldberg’s shilling for anyone it’s AIPAC or Israel, not the White House.
No, no, and no. You can levy that accusation at me if you want, I probably deserve it. But I’m a therapist, and in my work I get to see somewhat varied walks of life. Plenty of people stalk shelves all day and spend the few free hours they have tending to a sick family member; or try to have some tiny semblance of a life while working and going to school and raising child; or are so stressed about money that they have to switch dry cleaners when the price per garment goes up 20 cents. Especially the women in those situations, somehow more always falls to them. So while I think your statement was made with good intent, I don’t think it’s fair. A quick headline is literally all some people have time for.
Goddammit, few things annoy me more than when I am being All Serious and ruin the effect with a vaguely humorous typo. Stock shelves.
Life is a serious of choices. As an adult, you bear full responsibility for every single choice. Every choice has consequences and repercussions. If you choose to stock shelves all day, that’s your choice. If you choose to “have the semblance of a life”, raise a child, or go to school, in lieu of becoming a responsible, informed member of society, then you should be held responsible. All the time in the world is yours. Unfortunately, in our society, its very much en vogue to reject the idea of personal responsibility. Nothing is ever anyone’s fault. I’d suggest that becoming minimally informed enough to make rational, reasoned decisions should be everyone’s first priority.
First of all, that implies that everyone starts equal on the playing field, which is utter bullshit.
Second, you sound like a tyrant looking to swap out who you loathe. Instead of being on the anti-ISIS bandwagon you’ve decided to feel disgusted with Americans. I am going to out-unique you and blame something even more esoteric. I… I blame… um, hipsters! Yeah, hipsters, with their tight fitted jeans and their tofu scramble and their Subaru Foresters that they think are like, somehow better than SUVs because they always look like they’re headed for a campground, even though they burn just as much gas. Fucking hipsters causing death and destruction and mayhem everywhere!!
I’m kidding, btw. I’m not into hating on people and blame games, for the most part. I’m a fan of analyzing situations, sparing the humans.
Did Obama’s troop surge of 100,000 boots on the ground in Afghanistan clean out the Taliban? Nope. The surge was a dismal failure. The Taliban haven’t gone anywhere. So why is it reasonable to believe that an airstrike-only war will clean ISIS out of Iraq? It’s a measure of how thoroughly Afghanistan has fallen off the media radar screen that nobody is asking these questions.
American foreign/military policy is Lucy and the football on many levels. Just disgusting.
Glenn, Glenn, Glenn. We can’t regret doing something later if we don’t do it now. And we can’t do something now if we study the history of all our past failures. It would just be too discouraging. Plus, what about all the defense contractors? How would we ever stimulate the economy without them?
Sheesh. You don’t know nothin’.
Göring: Why, of course, the people don’t want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally, the common people don’t want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship.
Gilbert: There is one difference. In a democracy, the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars.
Göring: Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.