One of the most accidentally revealing media accounts highlighting the real meaning of “democracy” in U.S. discourse is a still-remarkable 2002 New York Times Editorial on the U.S.-backed military coup in Venezuela, which temporarily removed that country’s democratically elected (and very popular) president, Hugo Chávez. Rather than describe that coup as what it was by definition – a direct attack on democracy by a foreign power and domestic military which disliked the popularly elected president – the Times, in the most Orwellian fashion imaginable, literally celebrated the coup as a victory for democracy:
With yesterday’s resignation of President Hugo Chávez, Venezuelan democracy is no longer threatened by a would-be dictator. Mr. Chávez, a ruinous demagogue, stepped down after the military intervened and handed power to a respected business leader, Pedro Carmona.
Thankfully, said the NYT, democracy in Venezuela was no longer in danger . . . because the democratically-elected leader was forcibly removed by the military and replaced by an unelected, pro-U.S. “business leader.” The Champions of Democracy at the NYT then demanded a ruler more to their liking: “Venezuela urgently needs a leader with a strong democratic mandate to clean up the mess, encourage entrepreneurial freedom and slim down and professionalize the bureaucracy.”
More amazingly still, the Times editors told their readers that Chávez’s “removal was a purely Venezuelan affair,” even though it was quickly and predictably revealed that neocon officials in the Bush administration played a central role. Eleven years later, upon Chávez’s death, the Times editors admitted that “the Bush administration badly damaged Washington’s reputation throughout Latin America when it unwisely blessed a failed 2002 military coup attempt against Mr. Chávez” [the paper forgot to mention that it, too, blessed (and misled its readers about) that coup]. The editors then also acknowledged the rather significant facts that Chávez’s “redistributionist policies brought better living conditions to millions of poor Venezuelans” and “there is no denying his popularity among Venezuela’s impoverished majority.”
If you think The New York Times editorial page has learned any lessons from that debacle, you’d be mistaken. Today they published an editorial expressing grave concern about the state of democracy in Latin America generally and Bolivia specifically. The proximate cause of this concern? The overwhelming election victory of Bolivian President Evo Morales (pictured above), who, as The Guardian put it, “is widely popular at home for a pragmatic economic stewardship that spread Bolivia’s natural gas and mineral wealth among the masses.”
The Times editors nonetheless see Morales’ election to a third term not as a vindication of democracy but as a threat to it, linking his election victory to the way in which “the strength of democratic values in the region has been undermined in past years by coups and electoral irregularities.” Even as they admit that “it is easy to see why many Bolivians would want to see Mr. Morales, the country’s first president with indigenous roots, remain at the helm” – because “during his tenure, the economy of the country, one of the least developed in the hemisphere, grew at a healthy rate, the level of inequality shrank and the number of people living in poverty dropped significantly” – they nonetheless chide Bolivia’s neighbors for endorsing his ongoing rule: “it is troubling that the stronger democracies in Latin America seem happy to condone it.”
The Editors depict their concern as grounded in the lengthy tenure of Morales as well as the democratically elected leaders of Ecuador and Venezuela: “perhaps the most disquieting trend is that protégés of Mr. Chávez seem inclined to emulate his reluctance to cede power.” But the real reason the NYT so vehemently dislikes these elected leaders and ironically views them as threats to “democracy” becomes crystal clear toward the end of the editorial (emphasis added):
This regional dynamic has been dismal for Washington’s influence in the region. In Venezuela, Bolivia and Ecuador, the new generation of caudillos [sic] have staked out anti-American policies and limited the scope of engagement on development, military cooperation and drug enforcement efforts. This has damaged the prospects for trade and security cooperation.
You can’t get much more blatant than that. The democratically elected leaders of these sovereign countries fail to submit to U.S. dictates, impede American imperialism, and subvert U.S. industry’s neoliberal designs on the region’s resources. Therefore, despite how popular they are with their own citizens and how much they’ve improved the lives of millions of their nations’ long-oppressed and impoverished minorities, they are depicted as grave threats to “democracy.”
It is, of course, true that democratically elected leaders are capable of authoritarian measures. It is, for instance, democratically elected U.S. leaders who imprison people without charges for years, build secret domestic spying systems, and even assert the power to assassinate their own citizens without due process. Elections are no guarantee against tyranny. There are legitimate criticisms to be made of each of these leaders with regard to domestic measures and civic freedoms, as there is for virtually every government on the planet.
But the very idea that the U.S. government and its media allies are motivated by those flaws is nothing short of laughable. Many of the U.S. government’s closest allies are the world’s worst regimes, beginning with the uniquely oppressive Saudi kingdom (which just yesterday sentenced a popular Shiite dissident to death) and the brutal military coup regime in Egypt, which, as my colleague Murtaza Hussain reports today, gets more popular in Washington as it becomes even more oppressive. And, of course, the U.S. supports Israel in every way imaginable even as its Secretary of State expressly recognizes the “apartheid” nature of its policy path.
Just as the NYT did with the Venezuelan coup regime of 2002, the U.S. government hails the Egyptian coup regime as saviors of democracy. That’s because “democracy” in U.S. discourse means: “serving U.S. interests” and “obeying U.S. dictates,” regardless how how the leaders gain and maintain power. Conversely, “tyranny” means “opposing the U.S. agenda” and “refusing U.S. commands,” no matter how fair and free the elections are that empower the government. The most tyrannical regimes are celebrated as long as they remain subservient, while the most popular and democratic governments are condemned as despots to the extent that they exercise independence.
To see how true that is, just imagine the orgies of denunciation that would rain down if a U.S. adversary (say, Iran, or Venezuela) rather than a key U.S. ally like Saudi Arabia had just sentenced a popular dissident to death. Instead, the NYT just weeks ago uncritically quotes an Emirates ambassador lauding Saudi Arabia as one of the region’s “moderate” allies because of its service to the U.S. bombing campaign in Syria. Meanwhile, the very popular, democratically elected leader of Bolivia is a grave menace to democratic values – because he’s “dismal for Washington’s influence in the region.”
Photo: Dean Mouhtaropoulos/Getty Images
our president that has a 14% approval rating, and our congress that has a 12% approval rating……overthrowing enormously popular elected officials in sovereign nations…..sigh. But hey at least we know what kim kardashian ate for dinner
This article also throws some more light on what the US did and do in Ukraine: “Democrats” are almost all those who fit to American interests, even if they are the most ugly oligarchs, Nazis, nationalists, or whatever. – Sorry – this still must be specified: “American interest” in this whole game just means the interest of the 1 %, this must be sayed for not blaming the 99 %!
Let’s all imagine Mexico exists. Let’s point out that it’s threatening, and let’s erect something obvious. Let’s act like they didn’t notice, let’s act like they didn’t take advantage. Let’s act like they did. Let’s all act like that’s happened. Let’s say there’s a border, like a country border of some sort. Let’s act like that’s happened. Let’s all act like a threat exists. Let’s act like they’re worried. Let’s act like they didn’t have an erection, let’s act like it makes perfect sense at this point. Let’s all act like that didn’t happen, and that they didn’t notice. Let’s all act that way.
Let’s say at one point, one of their family members got past our erection point and managed to become legal citizens. Let’s act like that happened. Let’s all act their family started up a business and that it happens to be a restaurant. Let’s all act like that’s offensive. Let’s act like that doesn’t make sense. Let’s point out the obvious, and continue to apologize for their patronizing behavior. Let’s act like they have proof. Let’s act like they have two eyes and two ears and are capable of human observation. Let’s act like that’s happened before, and it’s a legend that continues to this day.
@Craigsummers – last thoughts on this, because I’m starting to hit some kind of saturation point, or critical mass with this conversation. But I was watching Jacob’s Ladder the other day, and I thought of you, and if you bear with me, I will explain why in a minute. It’s this really great 1990 movie that Bruce Joel Rubin wrote, back when Bruce Joel Rubin was still talented, and it’s about this Vietnam vet, Jacob, whose trying to figure out why he’s being tortured by all these demonic hallucinations. The pivotal moment in the movie occurs two thirds of the way through, when Jacob’s chiropractor, this sort of angelic figure played by Danny Aiello, tells Jacob that he is holding on to a false premise, and that if he can only let that false premise go, then he will see that all those demons torturing him are really angels trying to help him. If you haven’t seen the movie, I won’t spoil it for you by explaining what that premise is.
But my point is this – you have sustained some vicious attacks in these threads, and while I think that some of those attacks just come from contentious assholes, I think many of the people attacking you, or Israel, or your viewpoint, are actually just people who are trying to help you see something that it would behoove you to learn and understand – BECAUSE your love Israel so much. Maybe not Mona, because I think she is a Manichean warrior that needs an enemy to battle, and if you modified your perspectives or disappeared entirely from these threads, I think she would feel secretly disappointed.
But I believe that Israel’s critics, like the ones you encounter in these threads, are not Israel’s true enemies. I believe that the power brokers in the Yisrael Beiteinu party, and the Likud party, are Israel’s real enemies, and that AIPAC is really becoming Israel’s worst enemy of all, because AIPAC is what’s enabling the bad behavior of the most reprehensible people in the highest levels of government in Israel. Israel is going to kill itself. There is a sea change happening, and the eyes of the world are fixed more critically on Israel today than I believe they ever have been before. And if there isn’t real change and reform soon, and progress made towards resurrecting the dying Two State Solution, I’m afraid that things are going to get uglier and uglier. There will be more waves of antisemitism, real antisemitism, not only in Europe, but possibly here in the US as well, as average people begin to understand more about the influence AIPAC exerts on the American political system. Israel is beginning to be perceived in Europe as an outright monster, and I think public opinion in the US will soon follow suit. If things keep going the way they are now, history will judge Israel harshly.
I won’t badger you anymore. But I hope you understand, that I believe Israel is at a scary crossroads right now and needs to choose a wiser path than the one they have been following. Or the backlash will be awful. That’s all.
Thanks Dabney
I’ve emphasized that Israel needs to change their approach to the settlements. International opinion is strongly against their policies in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Cracks are developing in western support for Israel (Sweden, for example). This will eventually lead to international sanctions at the current rate (although not anytime soon since the US is strongly behind Israel still). I’m not sure that you can entirely blame conservative politics in Israel. All Israel governments have continued their settlement policies in the West Bank (although they pulled entirely out of Gaza to no avail). However, Netanyahu does not have the kahunas to resolve the issues.
Israelis need to elect someone who can make the hard choices necessary so that the Palestinians will have a state of their own. This will not solve the problem with Hamas, so even with a Palestinian state, there are no guarantees of peace, but at least Israel will have the backing of the international community.
Thanks again.
Totally agree, and yes it’s complicated.
“Israel is at a scary crossroads right now and needs to choose a wiser path than the one they have been following. Or the backlash will be awful.” – Dabney
“Israelis need to…make the hard choices necessary so that the Palestinians will have a state of their own. This will not solve the problem with Hamas, so even with a Palestinian state, there are no guarantees of peace…” – CraigSummers
““Human misery must somewhere have a stop; there is no wind that always blows a storm; great good fortune comes to failure in the end. All is change; all yields its place and goes; to persevere, trusting in what hopes he has, is courage in a man. The coward despairs.” – Euripides
@Sillyputty – can you explain to me how to make italics and bold typeface? Because I’m really feeling stifled here.
@Dabney – Certainly, I’ll try, but be advised I cannot simply type the html tags out directly, as they disappear as intended.
Step one for italics: At the FRONT of the word, sentence, or paragraph type em inside the greater than () but (w/o parenthesis)
Step two for italics: At the END of the word/sentence/paragraph type em inside the greater than () (w/o parenthesis) BUT add a forward slash ( / ) before the “e” in em.
For bold, the same method applies, except substitute the word strong in place of “em.”
You can find an old thread on here that is still open to test these out. If I can be of any more help, please let me know.
And by the way, thank you for adding your voice to the discussion.
Regards, Sillyputty
@Dabney – I’ll try again – the “greater than” and “lesser than” tags disappeared as feared.
1st – At the FRONT of the word, sentence, or paragraph type em inside/between the *greater than* and *lesser than* signs. So, *greater than* em *lesser than* with no spaces between characters.
2nd: At the END of the word, sentence, or paragraph type /em inside/between the *greater than* and *lesser than* signs. So, *greater than* /em *lesser than* with no spaces between characters.
For bold, the same method applies, except substitute the word *strong* in place of *em*
Hope this works…;)
@CraigSummers – sorry Craig, you may be gone by now, but passing on this very relevant Mondoweiss article about something Reuven Riven said recently – a glimmer of hope here:
http://mondoweiss.net/2014/10/israeli-presidents-diagnosis?utm_source=Mondoweiss+List&utm_campaign=35090353f5-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_b86bace129-35090353f5-398495329
After been asked repeatedly, Steb has been unable to identify even one specific act by Anwar al-Alwaki that is claimed to violate a particular United States criminal statute.
FALSE!! Specific Act = Association to a foreign terrorist organization (Al Qaida ) is a crime under 18 USC 2339A. Anwar Al Awlaki was a member of Al Qaida according to the UN, the US, and the Yemeni government. These three entities accused him of being a recruiter for Al Qaida. Multiple press reports confirmed that indeed, he was under the protection of Al Qaida members. I did provide the specific act you requested many times with links. Most of the times my comments are not posted.
It is not illegal to have “association” w/ a foreign terrorist organization per that statute. The statute prohibits “material support” to groups the State Dept. lists as “terrorist.” With the definitions of that Act in mind, please identify the specific acts Alwaki committed that constitute providing to AQ:
This is a penal statute. It provides for prosecution in a federal court of proper jurisdiction. In what federal courts was Alwaki charged, and what specific acts were cited?
Mona, considering you have a law degree, you sure don’t act like it. First off, I am going to ignore the argument that the legality of Awlaki’s be judged under the laws of war (i.e. AUMF, Geneva) instead of domestic law. Let’s look at the latter.
There are a bevy of arguments for and against the killing of Awlaki but your notion that there is not one specific act that is claimed to violate a particular U.S. criminal statute is easily refuted.
Al–Awlaki actions constitute treason as defined in the Constitution (Art. 3, Section 3) and 18 U.S.C. § 2381:
However, on the flip side, the government’s justification would have to prove it didn’t violate 18 U.S.C §1119 (Foreign murder of United States nationals) and not violate the 4-5th amendments. I think this is a solid argument and shows the critical need of the Administration’s justification being visible for scrutiny.
Some other criminal statutes Awlaki may have committed are 18 U.S.C. § 2332b(a)(2) [Acts of terrorism transcending national boundaries] and as Steb pointed out but you conveniently ignored, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2339A(a), 2339B(a) [Providing material support or resources to terrorists]
On to the second part, Mona asked for the specific acts Awlaki committed. He has been accused of interacting via e-mail with Nidal Hassan, the officer accused of the Fort Hood shootings, accused of providing material support to Abdulmutallab for the 2009 failed Christmas Day bombing routed to Detroit. He was accused of recruiting for al-Qaeda including a video that asked for adherents to kill 259 Americans. Anwar Al–Aulaqi made numerous public statements calling for “jihad against the West,” and praising “his students” Abdulmutallab and Hasan, and asking others to “follow suit.” The Administration alleged that al-Awlaki is “the leader of external operations for al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula.”
You also have to approach it from a practical standpoint. Let’s say your goal is to bring him in back to the U.S. and try him in court. He sure as hell isn’t going to come willingly! Anwar Al–Aulaqi said in a May 2010 AQAP video interview that he “will never surrender” to the United States, and that “[i]f the Americans want me, [they can] come look for me.” So, now you have to weigh the cost/benefit of flying into Yemen’s sovereign territory and attempting to capture a guy who states he is unwilling to be captured. Is the risk placed on soldiers responsible for executing such a mission irrelevant?
Further, in Al-Aulaqi v. Obama, the Plaintiff (his father Nasser) did not even deny his son’s affiliation, but just fought his being put on the kill list. Nasser said that by placing Awlaki on the kill-list, his son had no means to a trial or defense. But the judge dismissed that, noting that “while Anwar Al–Aulaqi may have chosen to “hide” from U.S. law enforcement authorities, there is nothing preventing him from peacefully presenting himself at the U.S. Embassy in Yemen and expressing a desire to vindicate his constitutional rights in U.S. courts.”
About using his tribe to lodge Al Qaeda members. Would that constitute a specific act for you? So, your argument is to charge him, and judge him in absentia and then use the drones against him? Well, the Yemenis did judge him in absentia while he was in Yemen, but they could not realistically apprehend him. I have accommodated your point for days now. I have reluctantly played the government lawyer while you have played the defense. Now let’s take him to a judge. Okay, not even an American judge, but to a Yemeni court that has an arrest warrant against him. How?
1) Ask him to surrender? The Yemenis did. He answered no and he asked Muslims to kill more foreigners
2)Negotiate with the powerful, well armed tribes that protect him. They publicly stated NO as many of those tribes are linked to Al Qaeda anyway.
3) Send Yemeni armed forces to apprehend him. The government was already struggling with other tribal conflicts, so it had no appetite to start another one.
4) Full scale invasion by US forces in the area? That is laughable.
5) Use US special forces to apprehend him? Military commanders stated it was not feasible. The Navy Seals are not the Avengers. That’s a cheap argument to believe that the successful mission against OBL means they can go anywhere regardless of the risks. Many Navy Seals got killed by tribesmen in the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan.
So how would you have brought him to that judge? The local government stated hat he was planning to kill foreigners, which he openly admitted. Press reports, tribesmen confirmed that he was part of Al Qaeda. If you can provide us with a way the US or the Yemeni government could have apprehended him, then I would agree the drone strike was wrong. Until then, the US government use of public law 107-40 is acceptable to me. He was not in USA, or Spain or Indonesia, countries where local authorities have control over their territories and where Al Qaeda suspects have been arrested.
Craig declares:
Craig, please state three ways in which Israel most egregiously violates democratic norms.
CRAIGSUMMERS. Attention CRAIGSUMMERS
The above post awaits a reply.
Mona
You answer it.
TO Mr Greenwald:
In what case would it be acceptable for the US government to use deadly force against targets located on other territories?
@
Mona, again association to foreign terrorist organization ( FTO) is a crime under 18 USC 2339B. Al Qaida was designated as a FTO in 1999. Public Law 107-40 from US Congress authorizes the president to use necessary and appropriate force against Al Qaida members. In 2010, the UN, which includes USA and Yemen accused him of being a member of Al Qaida. In 2010, tribal leaders link to Al Qaida stated PUBLICLY that he was under their protection and they will not surrender him. The individual specifically recruited other individuals to commit terrorist acts through his sermons, his emails, his online messages.
Thanks Glenn!Excellent job-again!
Oh yay, Glenn’s harping on an editorial from 2002. How relevant!!
Glenn:
lauding Saudi Arabia? Glenn, you should use full quotes more often instead of a single word quoted. Therefore, I don’t have to waste my time fact checking you. Here is what the Ambassador said:
This quote did not even mention Saudi Arabia. Further, Saudi Arabia is quite moderate compared to the Islamic State and if you cannot draw a distinction between the two, you are either deluding yourself or simply don’t care about the truth. Saudi Arabia has a terrible human rights record, but last time I checked they weren’t stealing women from other countries and marrying them off to their warriors, having unarmed civilians dig their own graves before execution, attempting genocide when non-Muslims refuse to convert, or murdering journalists and human rights workers in propaganda videos.
I can imagine Glenn’s and his followers’ response – “But, but, but…the Saudis behead people!!” Yes, I’ve heard your talking point. Saudi Arabia is estimate to have executed 57 people in 2014. Some of the reasons are for smuggling hashish and “sorcery.” It is crazy and representative of a backwards country by our standards, but let’s put this into perspective: when the Islamic State seized Tikrit, they MURDERED between 560 and 770 men, all or most of them apparently captured Iraqi army soldiers. Human Rights Watch also identified several other mass graves via satellite photos. Don’t forget to utterly ignore the following information as well.
And:
And:
You sure the Saudi Arabia isn’t “moderate” compared to the Islamic State?
Don’t let the information drown out your claims of false equivalence
Since you all are so morally superior, how do you justify ignoring the actions of IS?
And the worst thing is that most of this happened in just a month from June to July, according to the UN. Lastly, don’t forget to ignore the Islamic State’s current antics in Kobane.
Hey Nate, if Glenn writes an article about a recipe for pumpkin pie, are you going to rebut his recipe by writing a bunch of lines about hunting skunks in the wilds of Northern California? Because that’s about how comparatively on subject you would be, which is what you’ve attempted to do in your completely off topic comment.
Kitt, did you just ignore this part of the article?
Glenn:
Yeah, I bet ya did. And am I not allowed to chime in on a piece of the article? Do I have to pretend that I give a rat’s ass about the supposed importance today of what the NYT’s editorial board said about Chavez in 2002?
Also, I see no problem with going off-point at least sometimes. But hearing YOU chide me for doing so stunning in terms of irony and hypocrisy. I did a quick search through your comments on this article and unsurprisingly you are droning on and on about unrelated stuff!
Case in point, your link to the DemocracyNow video about Dirty Wars. What exactly is the tie in to the article? How about your whining about Glenn not answering your posts (you don’t deserve it), or you going on and on about drone strikes and the hit on Awlaki’s son? Or the Seal Team Six part?
And you accuse me of not being able to stay on subject!? Hell, you didn’t even stay on subject in your response to my post which is on subject! On top of you never actually addressing my comments’ content, I can only laugh at your comment. Kitt, your lack of self-awareness is baffling!
Being off topic wasn’t the point, nate. The point was you pretending to be addressing Glenn’s actual article as if you were outraged that he left out details when in fact he wasn’t writing what Nate was demanding that he either write about, or admit that he doesn’t care about anything but whatthehellever it is that Nate is accusing him of not writing about. People aren’t as stupid as you need for them to be to not see through, both your original comment that I replied to, and through your equally twisted diversion in your pretentious response to me about it. If you want to be natiecontrariie just for the hell of it, that’s your bidna, but don’t expect to be taken seriously when you’e transparently blathering about something completely unrelated to what you’re pretending to be addressing. There was no comparison to what you’ve done there to what I was doing in addressing other subjects. I wasn’t pretending to be addressing Glenn’s article. But as I said, that’s obvious even though you were hoping that it wouldn’t be.
It’s less contrarian (I’ve complimented several of his posts in the past, but you probably ignore that) and more that I think his articles are often quite poor. It’s strange that you criticize me for being a contrarian; do you not recognize that Glenn is an unrelenting contrarian of U.S. foreign policy? Here’s a challenge for you: find me a couple articles by Glenn that are complimentary to U.S. policy decisions.
Also, aside from you (and maybe Mona) nobody accuses me of making nonsensical or off-topic posts. And no offense but I don’t hold your views in very high esteem since you never address the contents of my discussion but instead ridicule my tone or take umbrage with me sharing an opinion that goes against the TI commenter grain.
I can think of a few articles of Glenn’s from the past several months that I thought were great: (1) the one comparing Netanyahu’s and Hillary Clinton’s comments, (2) the article on the NSA’s surveillance of Muslim Americans, and (3) the amazing piece on TURBINE which may have been one of my favorite reads this year. But he’s also had some of the worst articles including the one accusing NPR of being propagandist; his claims that the U.S., by attacking ISIS in Syria and Iraq, merely wants to bomb Muslims; and his article that used the “bad as Hitler” logical fallacy and then tried to defend its use.
You’re confused, or lying.
Forgetful ol’ Kitt.
Kitt:
No, Nate, not forgetful. I don’t give credence to your framing of my comment — which was a reply to someone else.
I, not long ago, wrote a comment about many of CraigSummers’s comment posts being dishonest because I don’t believe that his commentary shows that he is anything approaching stupid or lacking in knowledge on many of the subjects he weighs in on. I’m not sure if the same intelligence scrambled by dishonesty theme applies to you or not. You seem to be so stuck on being contrary about almost anything and everything that Glenn writes about that you lose your ability to not delude yourself into believing in your lame, outlandish arguments; many of which just don’t make sense or miss the point of what you aiming at or go completely around the point.
And all of that is why I wrote that you are either confused or lying.
No, Nate would point out that in Glenn’s entire piece about pumpkin pie recipes, he “tellingly” failed to mention that The Smashing Pumpkins broke up for a while because several members suffered from addictions, which of course means, Glenn doesn’t think this is a serious problem for many people.
Worse, although Glenn might argue for using fresh pumpkins for pie baking, he’ll keep from the readers that sometimes spies also use those, hence, The Pumpkin Papers. Because, you see, Glenn want’s to play down the need for the NSA to surveille pumpkin patches.
comedy is tough Mona, but God bless you for trying.
Your trolling rates 2/10. Stay on topic for more points.
I’m not gonna lie, I enjoyed the fan fic part of your post where Glenn sputters helplessly in response to you.
Nic, you are becoming as lazy as Kitt. My fan fic part is easily supported by Glenn’s tweet from yesterday. Hell, he even used the same statistic I mentioned!
https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/524180077631008768
Now why would Glenn point out this Saudi beheading thing?
Maybe because it is part of his theme of conflating the Saudis with the actions of the Islamic State?
[quote]My fan fic part is easily supported by Glenn’s tweet from yesterday.[/quote]
I know, right? It’s totally better when you add a realistic element. Do you take requests? I’m liking this damsel in distress theme recently proposed about Laura Poitras, I think you should totally take that and run with it…
Ok, I’m sorry, I couldn’t help myself. As to the rest:
[quote]Now why would Glenn point out this Saudi beheading thing?
Maybe because it is part of his theme of conflating the Saudis with the actions of the Islamic State?[/quote]
That kind of sounds like a conspiracy theory to me. (Then again, half the stuff I read online sounds like a conspiracy theory to me. I’m starting to think I have some sort of conspiracy theory problem that I’m unaware of, since I see them everywhere.) Why would Glenn point out this Saudi beheading thing? Because he’s anti-authoritarian, probably, and he’s annoyed that violence in the name of a State is often ‘ok’ while relatively more populist violence is treated with horror. Just my guess. I tend to disagree with him on this point but I try to be honest about it. Neither extreme of totalitarianism or failed state anarchy is desirable, but somewhere in between we have to take a stand about what trade-offs we’re willing to make. It’s uncomfortable to say “I am willing to tolerate X amount of constriction on my neighbors and fellow man; and X amount of outright violence and suffering for the ones labeled ‘bad’, in order for me and my ungroup – however large or small that may be – to live relatively more comfortable and secure lives.”
In other words, I think Glenn’s point is that violence is violence. Again, just my interpretation. We are often enculturated to regard the world in terms of ‘good violence’ and ‘bad violence’ vs. taking an ‘all suffering is regrettable’ approach. If I said “You know, it’s unfortunate, because ISIS gets so much press, yet we don’t pay that much attention to (hmm… I was going to put in the number of black males killed each year in the US, but it’s actually higher than the number killed by ISIS,) the 1,500 women killed due to domestic violence each year”, I doubt you’d assume I was conflating the topics. Just saying that we tend to hyper-focus on some ills while others go on all around us.
Facepalm – apologies for the html fail, btw.
It’s nowhere near that complicated. Glenn’s tweet included a link to the Vice Article that started as follows:
He then Tweeted:
https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/524183099312451584
Do you not see his use of this information to simply conflate the two?
My problem with this tactic is not that Saudi Arabia gets criticized but that (1) Glenn’s fixation on perceived U.S. hypocrisy means that he ignores scrutinizing the actual actions of the Islamic State and its threat to the region, and (2) pretends that the Islamic State and Saudis are identical when they are not. He goes for the low-hanging fruit, appealing to emotion and dramatic but misleading exclamations. For example, when the U.S. began bombing IS in Syria, he said “…Syria becomes the 7th predominantly Muslim country bombed by 2009 Nobel Peace Laureate Barack Obama.” As if Obama just bombed them for being brown. Then there was the claim that the U.S. used the “Khorosan Group” to justify its attacks despite Obama already laying out plans to attack the Islamic State in Syria.
Again, Saudi Arabia deserves all the criticism it gets for its dismal human rights record and seemingly kangaroo courts, but the Islamic State is a significant threat to the entire region and is committing atrocities on a massive and still largely unknown scale.
I still don’t see what you’re basing the claim of ‘conflation’ on. First, that was a retweet of an article, not an endorsement of everything in it. Second, even then, the language in the article was pretty mild. “Hey, when beheadings are happening over here and we’re all very upset about it, maybe it’s worth remembering that governments sometimes behead people too and really, that’s Not Good.” I don’t get how you get from there to saying the two groups are the same. If I said “While everyone is panicking about the ebola virus, it’s worth remembering that if you don’t store dairy products properly you can also become very ill, a fact which is often overlooked”, would you say I was conflating ebola with e. coli? To me the logical assumption is that one is using the attention given to the general topic to spotlight a related area that often goes untalked about, but that’s just me.
There seems to be an inability to grasp the point of the article.
It reflects on the requirements of nations to maintain good relations with America.
Both its Government and it its media.
If you let America sell you arms and privatize your nations assets and influence your foreign policy,
You may become a strategic partner.
If you refuse to do this as Bolivia has done, you become a threat to democracy.
Not only are you a threat to Democracy but the utd states will attempt to bring down these democratically elected governments.
America has no problem propping up undemocratic regimes , Egypt and Saudi Arabia for example.
Stop your tit for tat arguments about Saudi Arabia and Isis and address this main point.
America’s foreign policy is driven, like other nations, by its hunger for resources and profit.
(Which will be shared among private companies shareholders and not benefit all citizens.)
Saudi Arabia is a kingdom with questionable human rights and contains many financial backers of ISIS.
Yet Morales and his democratically elected government, which has delivered some improved standards to its citizens, will receive different treatment.At least that’s what I got from the article.
“My problem with this tactic is not that Saudi Arabia gets criticized but that (1) Glenn’s fixation on perceived U.S. hypocrisy means that he ignores scrutinizing the actual actions of the Islamic State and its threat to the region, and (2) pretends that the Islamic State and Saudis are identical when they are not.”
Is Glenn not fixating on perceived US hypocrisy as he is an American and wants to comment on those that act in his name?
I don’t know where he comes from but that’s my guess.
His success as a journalist has given him the ability to pick his own stories.
Its important for us expose hypocrisy (I’ll leave out your “perceived” thanks) of our own governments.
I am extremely grateful to him and others who have exposed some hidden truths.
But keep on arguing over why he never gets back to you or ISIS v Saudi on beheadings.
Shia militias have committed their own atrocities. And the sources for some of these so-called ISIS murders are suspect. Mostly it originates with the Iraqi defense minister, whom of course the US ignores when he complained about American bombers killing civilians.
Which brings up the point: Bombing people is no way to liberate them. Thousands more Iraqis have died because of the American invasion. And you harp on the supposed deaths of a few hundred soldiers?
An excellent column. It shows that the US has zero moral authority regarding foreign affairs, and it also helps explain why so many groups want to attack us. These points seem lost on the long-winded commenters below.
Great article
Dabney! … you go girl.
(*women, they’re fucking perfect.)
ht-`bah
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/10/10/narrative-destroyed-edward-snowdens-girlfriend-lindsay-mills-moved-moscow-live/#comment-81836
Oh, – and here methinks Mona is an ‘it’.
@CraigSummers
“It is so easy for you to embrace someone like the radical (leftist) Sands because he rejects a Jewish state.” Craig to Mona
Craig, Sand doesn’t reject Israel, if that is what you’re saying. He loves Israel. He objects to racist laws and racist trends in politics and the clergy that are becoming more pronounced these days. He would like to Israel improved – what’s wrong with that?
“As has been said countless times, you oppose the Jewish state far more than you care about the Palestinians. In fact, you rarely even mention the Palestinians – as an afterthought. Of course, you embrace the noble Sands and oppose tribalism, only it’s Jewish tribalism you really oppose.” Craig to Mona
Craig, wouldn’t it be preferable, instead of leveling statements like these at Mona, with the intent to define her position yourself — to simply ask her to define her position in her own words? Isn’t Mona more of an expert on Mona than you are? Maybe if you had a more precise understanding of Mona’s positions, the you guys could make up and be friends.
Craig quotes from CIFWatch:
“……On reading the headline to Sand’s piece in the Guardian Shlomo Sand: ‘I wish to resign from being a Jew’ I thought of those times a Jew might have wished to resign from being Jewish. As Jews were being herded by the Nazis onto trains headed for Auschwitz-Birkenau some may have liked to declare “I wish to resign from being a Jew” to try and save their own and their family’s lives.
Had Sand been around back then and submitted his resignation to the Nazi in charge of the Jew-herding he would have been mocked before being sent on his way to Auschwitz…….”.
Craig, I don’t think CIFWatch should be bringing up the Holocaust in reference to Sand’s Guardian article. It’s an emotional trigger that causes people to think less clearly and it has very little to do with what Sand is complaining about, in contemporary Israel. It only serves to muddle the debate.
“……Craig, wouldn’t it be preferable, instead of leveling statements like these at Mona, with the intent to define her position yourself — to simply ask her to define her position in her own words? Isn’t Mona more of an expert on Mona than you are? Maybe if you had a more precise understanding of Mona’s positions, the you guys could make up and be friends……”
I appreciate your attempt to mediate this dispute, but I have been posting with Mona for over a year. The conclusions I have reached regarding Mona are based on those discussions. I have given her every opportunity to backtrack on certain issues – like Zionism is racism, or that a Jewish state is an ethno-supremacists ideal. Her entire goal is to delegitimize the Jewish state – goals which are common to the far left and far right. She opposes the existence of a Jewish state which is hardly the position of a traditional liberal.
In addition, Mona’s attacks include perpetual and tiresome attacks on Israel’s (less than perfect) democracy. However, none of these issues have anything to do with a Palestinian state. Of course, Mona has never taken issue with the Iranian (supremacist) Islamic state, the religious supremacy of (terrorists) Hamas or the tribalism associated with the greater Middle East (where hatred, racism and bigotry run rampant – especially at Jews). And there are no democracies anywhere outside of Israel in the ME, but that doesn’t seem to matter to Mona. Mona only opposes tribalism when the tribe are Jews. She has said outright that Jewish donors run the Republican Party and the US government, thus she buys into far right racist talking points about Jewish power (yes, Greenwald did the same). Lobbying is free speech, and AIPAC operates within the laws of the United States.
Mona could easily focus on liberals issues like the illegal Israeli settlements, disproportionate military response and barriers that prevent the Palestinians from their right to self determination, but she has expressed little interests in these issues. If it was the Russians that were preventing a Palestinian state, she would be silent as a corpse – like in Ukraine. As long as Mona used viscous far right wing racists arguments to legitimize the one Jewish state in the world, I’ll oppose her constantly.
No, I have not.
But I have said that Zionist donors do this, and that the Israel Lobby controls a great deal of U.S. foreign policy. These are now generally acknowledged facts.
Oh, but not true! Not if Russians had stolen Palestinian land in a scenario brokered by the West, and then held the refugees in open air cages — with diplomatic cover at the UN from my country — while also warring on the refugees with advanced military wares purchased with $3.1 billion of U.S. tax dollars that allowed the Russians to, inter alia, kill 500 Palestinian children. And not if there were a Russian lobby in the U.S. buying Congress, distorting our electoral process, and trying to silence critics as bigoted anti-Russians.
If all that held true, Craig, then I’d be on about Russia and its lobby as I am about Zionists, Israel and its lobby.
Craig – in the end, your repeated attempts to re-frame others arguments to fit your agenda, particularly Mona’s, fails.
Why? Not because you are dispassionate or disingenuous; but because you are repeatedly wrong in accepting any other definition of any other persons views as being anything other than your own.
You have become, in essence, a self-fulfilling logical fallacy machine – incapable of defining your repeated broad-brush accusations (far-left, etc… ad nauseum) to any extent that allows anything other the option for those you refute to back-track and agree with your initial assertion or otherwise be wrong – which therefore, illogically, becomes fodder for you to claim that because of this disagreement with you their arguments or positions are incorrect.
For example, you repeatedly claim that arguments presented here that appear to be supporting The Intercept, or, more specifically, Mr. Greenwald, are somehow, ipso facto, incorrect simply because of this and/or some very ill defined ideological/leftist/whatever-leaning – and not based on whether the argument that is being presented, in and of itself by either party has any merit.
This is simply and unequivocally logically fallacious and untrue.
To put it another way – you constantly make the argument that because others are making an argument at all – or more disingenuously – are not making it in the way that you want it made and to the extent that you want it made (i.e., “Mona has never taken issue with the Iranian (supremacist) Islamic state, the religious supremacy of (terrorists) Hamas or the tribalism associated with the greater Middle East”) it therefore makes there position invalid as an argument altogether.
In the end, I think that Dabney has you pegged: you are right because you say you are right and others are wrong – not because you have brought succinct evidence to support any claim that you make – but simply because you have said that it’s so.
““It is the certainty that they possess the truth that makes men cruel.” – Anatole France
Hi sillyputty
“…..To put it another way – you constantly make the argument that because others are making an argument at all – or more disingenuously – are not making it in the way that you want it made and to the extent that you want it made (i.e., “Mona has never taken issue with the Iranian (supremacist) Islamic state, the religious supremacy of (terrorists) Hamas or the tribalism associated with the greater Middle East”) it therefore makes there position invalid as an argument altogether……”
I think it shows Mona’s “concerns” for Israel as a Jewish state are disingenuous – at best. I think “whataboutery” is given a bad name. If it shows the blatant hypocrisy of someone’s position, then it is a useful argument. That you might not like it is irrelevant to me.
Much of the vitriol directed at Israel by Mona is simply to destroy the legitimacy of the one Jewish state in the world (which she does not apply to any other country in the world – see above) – like Zionism as a racist ideology or Israel is an ethnic-supremacist state. She attacks her democracy and refers to Israel as an apartheid state (in total ignorance I might add). She opposes the existence of Israel. These are far right wing positions which have been hijacked by some on the left. Again, I’m not going to allow it to go unchallenged.
“……You have become, in essence, a self-fulfilling logical fallacy machine – incapable of defining your repeated broad-brush accusations (far-left, etc… ad nauseum)…..”
In addition, you may not like political “labels” like the far left (as we have discussed), but some political labels seem just fine with you like “fascism” and “neocon” – but both serve as useful pejorative words to pigeonhole positions in political discourse (Greenwald certainly doesn’t use the term “neocon” out of admiration). It seems much more likely that you embrace right wing pejorative terms, but simply cannot fathom the intolerance and bigotry associated with people on the left side of the political spectrum.
http://www.paulbogdanor.com/antisemitism.html
So yes, “far” left has a place in political discourse in the same respect as neocon or fascist.
Thanks.
Of course you do! Because as SillyPutty notes, you are a devoted practitioner of logical fallacies. Whataboutery in various formulations = ad hominem, tu quoque, recrimination, or the fallacy of relative privation. These are all misdirection, to avoid talking about that which Craig does not wish to address.
Speaking of what Craig does not wish to address, I note no response to my reply about under what conditions I would speak out about Russia. Hmmm.
“……Oh, but not true! Not if Russians had stolen Palestinian land in a scenario brokered by the West, and then held the refugees in open air cages — with diplomatic cover at the UN from my country — while also warring on the refugees with advanced military wares purchased with $3.1 billion of U.S. tax dollars that allowed the Russians to, inter alia, kill 500 Palestinian children. And not if there were a Russian lobby in the U.S. buying Congress, distorting our electoral process, and trying to silence critics as bigoted anti-Russians……”
You avoided the question about Russia in the context with which the question was posed which is you would not support the Palestinian cause if Russia (not the US supported Israel) was preventing Palestinian self-determination. As an example, the Russians just stole Ukrainian land and they provided diplomatic cover for themselves at the UN. They have supplied advanced weaponry to Rebels (who were the likely folks that shot down an airliner killing 300 innocent people). Russian troops secured the Crimean Peninsula and were captured in eastern Ukraine. The death toll in Ukraine has exceeded the war in Gaza by 1-1/2 times (so far). The Russian “lobby” amounts to none other than the authoritarian Putin who doesn’t allow free political speech while arresting and jailing his opposition. Russia is one of the most dangerous places for journalists to work in the world. In addition, Russia supplies weapons and funding to prop up murderous Assad regime which is responsible for the deaths of 200,000 people – after they crushed a democracy movement. There is much to malign Russia over – but you have little to say about Russian imperialism, hegemony, or the anti-democratic Russian government.
To take up your response, however, the UN offered two states for two peoples – Jews and Palestinians – which the Jews accepted. The Palestinians and Arab nations rejected the partition with violence leading to the expulsion of 750,000 Palestinians and 800,000-900,000 Jews from the greater Middle East. Wars instigated in 1967 and 1973 by the Arabs led to Israel occupying the West Bank and East Jerusalem.
As far as the theft of Palestinian land goes, lots of land has been “stolen” from around the world, but you are obsessed with (only) Israel (presumably you mean the entire state of Israel, not just settlements over the Green Line). Turkey stole approximately ½ of ethnic Armenia (itself an ethno supremacist state); China still occupies Tibet; Russia stole the Crimea Peninsula; European colonization led to the dislocation and deaths of countless indigenous people world-wide; Russia militarily created two new ethnic (supremacist) states in South Ossetia and Abkhazia which were a part of Georgia until the war. The world is full of displaced people, border changes and refugees who never will or could return to their homeland. That’s unfortunate, but also reality.
The US also supplies a billion dollars in military aid to Egypt which overthrew the elected government of Egypt without the vicious criticism you direct at Israel – despite the anti-democratic government; despite the murder of countless innocent protesters; despite the Egyptian government labeling the elected MB a terrorist organization and banning them from Egypt. That is the same US military aid promised to Israel after the Camp David Accords (although a lesser amount).
You simply have a double standard Mona – and an obsession with Israel, AIPAC and Jewish donors.
The post lightly [edited] for accuracy:
“I have [been] given every opportunity to backtrack on certain [horrible things I have posted] – like [referring to dark-skinned Muslims as “brownies”] or that [certain innocent “brownies” living – and dying – under US drone strikes are just “[email protected](king Pakistanis” and “who cares” what they think?
Mine] is an ethno-supremacist ideal. [My] entire goal is to delegitimize [all sorts of people whom I know very little about and care for even less – goals which [I share] in common with the [neo-Nazis that gained power from the US-backed coup in Ukraine, which I really liked. That’s because I] oppose the [victims of US imperialism which I thoughtlessly cheer,] which is hardly the position of a [decent human being].”
Ok Mona, this is the US Congress resolution 107-40 authorizing the use of all necessary and appropriate force against Al Qaida responsible for the 2001 attacks. http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/PLAW-107publ40/pdf/PLAW-107publ40.pdf
and this is 18 USC 2339 that makes it unlawful to provide support for Foreign Terrorist Organizations http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2011-title18/pdf/USCODE-2011-title18-partI-chap113B-sec2339A.pdf
I already sent you the UN links in which they accused him of being associated with Al Qaida. He was not in US, or France, or Spain or Indonesia where local authorities have apprehended Al Qaida members because they have control over their territory, so they did not need UNNECESSARY force such as an US Air Force bomb. He was in Yemen where the local authorities did not and still do not have control over parts of their territory. Now, AGAIN for the fourth or fifth time. HOW WOULD YOU HAVE BROUGHT HIM TO THE COURT ROOM?
This dude just keeps getting better and better. Thank you for what you’ve done and what you continue to do.
Great article
More from Chomsky on the dual meanings of ‘democracy’ and other terms:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmoXze-Higc
And as we all look down, both literally and metaphorically speaking, on that region underneath us known as Latin and South America that managed to preserve more of their indigenous heritage we look for further opportunities to exploit and denigrate the human race. Opportunities aplenty as karma awaits.
ot
Interview of Laura Poitras..
ht`-Tom Engelhardt
[snip]
‘Sixteen months after his NSA documents began to be released by the Guardian and the Washington Post, I think it may be possible to speak of the Snowden Era. And now, a remarkable new film, Citizenfour, which had its premiere at the New York Film Festival on October 10th and will open in select theaters nationwide on October 24th, offers us a window into just how it all happened. It is already being mentioned as a possible Oscar winner.
Director Laura Poitras, like reporter Glenn Greenwald, is now known almost as widely as Snowden himself, for helping facilitate his entry into the world. Her new film, the last in a trilogy she’s completed (the previous two being My Country, My Country on the Iraq War and The Oath on Guantanamo), takes you back to June 2013 and locks you in that Hong Kong hotel room with Snowden, Greenwald, Ewen MacAskill of the Guardian, and Poitras herself for eight days that changed the world. It’s a riveting, surprisingly unclaustrophic, and unforgettable experience.
Before that moment, we were quite literally in the dark. After it, we have a better sense, at least, of the nature of the darkness that envelops us. Having seen her film in a packed house at the New York Film Festival, I sat down with Poitras in a tiny conference room at the Loews Regency Hotel in New York City to discuss just how our world has changed and her part in it.
Tom Engelhardt: Could you start by laying out briefly what you think we’ve learned from Edward Snowden about how our world really works?
Laura Poitras: The most striking thing Snowden has revealed is the depth of what the NSA and the Five Eyes countries [Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Great Britain, and the U.S.] are doing, their hunger for all data, for total bulk dragnet surveillance where they try to collect all communications and do it all sorts of different ways. Their ethos is “collect it all.” I worked on a story with Jim Risen of the New York Times about a document — a four-year plan for signals intelligence — in which they describe the era as being “the golden age of signals intelligence.” For them, that’s what the Internet is: the basis for a golden age to spy on everyone..’
http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/175909/tomgram%3A_laura_poitras_and_tom_engelhardt%2C_the_snowden_reboot/#more
It’s embarrassing to remember things the younger version of myself used to believe about our country: that we were the planet’s moral policemen, that our government made decisions based on justice for the weaker, that other countries looked to emulate us. I’m not sure how I acquired these beliefs?? (school, home, media, being naïve, wishful thinking??).
I think the most effective way to combat all this injustice and deception is to help your neighbor. Shovel their driveway or rake their leaves or help them fix their roof. You can’t control the “big stuff” and it’s maddening to read about it day in and day out. I know it’s important to stay informed, but I’m starting to think it’s more important to go help someone DO something.
@Kitt (Drone Strike)
Other powerful tribal leaders stated they would not hand him over regardless of what he was accused of. Again, how would you apprehend a suspect when facing this situation? I remind you the suspect is still planning and financing terrorist acts as you are debating with the tribes. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/yemen/8129179/Yemen-tribal-leaders-will-not-hand-over-al-Qaeda-operatives.html
Steb, is it your view that Navy Seals are incompetent to retrieve Al Qaeda members from Yemen?
(Suspect, not convict?)
Anyway, what specific acts has this “suspect” undertaken to finance and plan terrorism? Pretend you are a detective and I’m a prosecutor: of what criminal activity do you have hard evidence, and what is that evidence? Tell me, so I may charge the suspect accordingly.
1) Military Operations: There are many factors commanders have to review before they deploy troops or use fighter jets or drones. The safety of their troops is their number one concern. If the risks associated with deploying special forces in Yemen were too high commanders may decide against that option while they surely believe that their troops are the best ones. My question is not an evaluation of the US military. My question is what if capturing him was not feasible due to the situation on the ground.
2) The investigators, prosecutors, and governments that strongly believe the individual was a criminal already made their case to United Nations, the US government, the UK government, the Canadian government and the Yemeni government. Whether you believe the charges were fabricated is another debate. Stick to my point please. How would you bring him to the court room?
Too high for U.S. Navy Seals and other special forces?! They can’t extract one guy from a tribal area in Yemen?!
And what were the *specific acts committed by Alwaki alleged to be criminal? And why are these not contained in charging papers?
With all due respect and I really mean it. Special forces are not the Avengers. It is actually possible that a special force mission may be rejected due to high risks. I am sure you are aware that many of them have been killed by tribesmen specially in the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan. So, your argument is actually invalid since you are obviously not a military woman and you have not seen the risk assessment of the mission.
So it is asking too much of our military to risk behavior that upholds the U.S. Constitution. I see. (I had thought they’d sworn an oath about that!)
Steb is evading a question:
And what were the *specific acts committed by Alwaki alleged to be against the criminal law of the United States?
Since US soldiers have sworn to protect the US constitution, they are not allowed to decide on the feasibility of a mission. That is a very inexpensive argument. I do not evade questions. Specific act = Association to a terrorist organization, which is illegal under 18 USC 2339. UN resolution, (http://www.un.org/sc/committees/1267/NSQI28310E.shtml), the Yemeni government accused him of being a recruiter for AL Qaida.
So you’re going with the infamous, ‘OMG! it’s the “Ticking Time Bomb.” It took over two years to finally locate him with a drone strike, so where’s the improvement in comparison to commando house raid — which they have done, by the way, hundreds and hundreds of times.
Is that the same military we just read about that allowed this to happen because they didn’t want to be embarrassed? American troops gradually found and ultimately suffered from the remnants of long-abandoned programs, built in close collaboration with the West. Yes, that is the same ever so concerned military command.
What this has to do with my question? HOW WOULD YOU HAVE BROUGHT THE INDIVIDUAL TO THE COURT ROOM? I sent you the statements of powerful tribal leaders saying they would not hand him over even to the Yemeni government. I did not ask you a tactical military question. Military commanders decide whether to send the infrantry, the special forces, the air force etc..I did not ask you whether the charges were fabricated or not. Just tell me HOW you would bring him to the court room. Give your ideas on how would you do it.
HOW WOULD YOU HAVE BROUGHT THE INDIVIDUAL TO THE COURT ROOM?
The same way the Rumsfeld and Cheney will be brought to trial for their war crimes for which they have been charged in Europe. Probably never going to happen, because they will never put themselves in a venue where they could be renditioned. But somehow I think we would be less sympathetic to the remote airstrike to take out Terrorists/War Criminals if they were in our back yard, even if Cheney and Rumsfeld were far more deadly than anybody including OBL.
Did you read my question at all? Bush Cheney Rumsfeld….Bugs Bunny…New York Knicks…What is this???
There is no mystery to your insipid, pompous question. He wasn’t charged with anything so there was no courtroom to bring him to. If he ever had been charged with something you would had to have to asked the United States Government and military to tell you how they would, either legally or illegally, *Capture him in order to bring him to the US. This is the same US Government that renditions people and pays people to kidnap and turn over people for money. I’m sure they could have done that if they had wanted to. You asking for my Operational Planning with no one to perform the Operational Planning with is trollish cartoonism. You’re again confusing what you must think of as being clever for what actually is just being a jackass.
John Oliver on Drones — “And “KAN, The Kirstie Alley Network”
(13 min video)
I am surprised it took you that long to start cursing. You are in progress. Your answer is simple. You do not have one!! You have no idea how you would bring an individual to a court room when local authorities are unable to apprehend him. Very interesting, you accuse the government of targeting and killing an individual without due process, but yet NONE of you, including Mr Greenwald can provide basic ideas on how he should have been brought to court. Suddenly UN resolutions become irrelevant for you, and you have become experts on military operations! Your pathetic comments (as usual) consist of ignoring facts, turning around in circle and finally your favorite, exposing your passion for obscenity. A word of advice, if you do not the answer just SHUT UP.
It’s not Kitt’s job to know the specifics of such things. That’s why his taxes pay for Navy Seals and other special forces.
It is his job as a citizen, however, to know that other citizens can’t be summarily executed by the government absent due process of law. Kitt, like me, might like to see some charging papers setting forth the specific crimes and acts Alwaki is alleged to have committed.
Where are those papers?
Mona, if we both agree that “taxes” are paid for the military to decide the “specifics” of such things, then we ought to let the military decide whether it is feasible to use special forces to capture a suspect or whether it is less risky to drop a bomb and kill him or her. None of you can provide a solution to that situation, because all you fail to look at all the angles of using drone strikes as you blindly follow Mr Greenwald regardless of his unrealistic argument.
Go the UN websites and see all the crimes he was accused of. Read 18 USC 2339 and see the laws the government accused him of violating. Read public law 107-40, which allows the president to use force against Al Qaida members. I have sent you multiple links. Sometimes they never get posted. I got your point, which is the government was lying. So, how would you have brought him to a judge to prove the government was lying?
Good to focus on the NYT, “The voice of educated ruling class.” But I missed any application of “democracy” to the current crisis in the Ukraine.
I thought Hamas was democratically elected too. But democracy is what the Romans say is democracy.
Those in glass empires ought not fly drones.
@Mona – thanks for that Algemeiner link. Now I know who Charles Freeman is. Depressing.
Dabney and CraigSummers have been discussing the cesspool known as CiFWatch, and the former stated he read a condemnation there of a Shlomo Sands’ article in the Guardian. Dabney indicated some agreement, but also allowed that he had not actually read Sands’ column.
He really should. Sands, an Israeli professor of history, Guardian piece is titled: Shlomo Sand: ‘I wish to resign and cease considering myself a Jew’, which is here: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/10/shlomo-sand-i-wish-to-cease-considering-myself-a-jew
Excerpt:
Mona – I am a “she,” not a “he.”
I can appreciate Sands’ feelings of pain and disillusionment. But I object to his conflation of Jewish identity with Israel. This theme comes up over and over again and it causes a lot of problems. There are a lot of Jewish people out there whose brains literally short circuit when Israel (state policy) is criticized and that is not normal or healthy and it does not bode well for the future of Israel, and it’s not good for those individuals either. I believe this to be true for Israel’s critics (like Sands), as well as its apologists. They are simply two sides of the same exact coin. Sands’ sense of Jewish identity shouldn’t have anything to do with whatever machinations Avigdor Lieberman or Naftali Bennett or any of those other guys are up to. The Likud party shouldn’t get to define Jewishness for everyone.
My sympathies are with Sands, and I hope to see serious reform in Israel, because I feel it is an out of control freight train hurtling toward what will one day become The True Hell of a one-state solution. But I don’t think Sands should be “resigning from Judaism.” Still have not read his article. Thanks.
Dabney, my apologies. I have always thought of Dabney as a male name (e.g., Dabney Coleman).
I offered Sands’ article so that everyone could read it. Myself, I’m undecided how to think about his arguments.
Mona I would consider it within the same context of this Algemeiner article you linked earlier about GG’s alleged antisemitism, written by Adam Levick:
http://www.algemeiner.com/2013/07/11/glenn-greenwalds-anti-semitism-exposed/
Levick lists a number of GG quotes, quotes which are all either critical of the Israeli State, or critical of AIPAC, though not a single one is objectively antisemitic. So why is Levick calling them antisemitic? Because Levick is conflating Israel with The Jewish Identity. As far as Levick is concerned, if you are critical of Israel, then you are critical of Jews, which makes you an antisemite. Which is what Sillyputty would call a logical fallacy and I would call a bad idea, the kind that leads to problems. That’s why I don’t think Shlomo Sand should “resign from being Jewish” because he’s unhappy with Israel today. Sands’ “Jewishness” has not been corrupted or poisoned by whatever bad things are happening in Israel now; it is its own thing, and inviolate.
Levick is, and consciously so.
But what I see Sands doing is more radical and, in my view, noble: he’s rejecting ethnic identity per se, and endorsing total universalism in exchange for any hint of tribalism.
“……But what I see Sands doing is more radical and, in my view, noble: he’s rejecting ethnic identity per se, and endorsing total universalism in exchange for any hint of tribalism……”
Something reflected in your posts throughout the Middle East – like the Islamic State of Iran for example. It is so easy for you to embrace someone like the radical (leftist) Sands because he rejects a Jewish state. He rejects what you oppose and hate – like the Jewish identity. This has absolutely nothing to do with so called tribalism or fascism – or even the (tribal) Palestinians. In fact, this has never been about the Palestinians. As has been said countless times, you oppose the Jewish state far more than you care about the Palestinians. In fact, you rarely even mention the Palestinians – as an afterthought. Of course, you embrace the noble Sands and oppose tribalism, only it’s Jewish tribalism you really oppose.
CIFWatch posted a response to the article published in the Guardian, and I think this sums up fairly well how many Jews might respond to someone who wishes to “resign from being a Jew” while collecting a paycheck from the Jewish state (Richard Millet):
“……On reading the headline to Sand’s piece in the Guardian Shlomo Sand: ‘I wish to resign from being a Jew’ I thought of those times a Jew might have wished to resign from being Jewish. As Jews were being herded by the Nazis onto trains headed for Auschwitz-Birkenau some may have liked to declare “I wish to resign from being a Jew” to try and save their own and their family’s lives.
Had Sand been around back then and submitted his resignation to the Nazi in charge of the Jew-herding he would have been mocked before being sent on his way to Auschwitz…….”.
There go those Joos once again using the Holocaust to stave off criticism and continue their quest for world domination.
Um, no.
No.
You may recall the night “Operation Protective Edge” began the obscene slaughter of Gazan men, women and children, and Gazan medical staff were posting pictures of the carnage to Twitter, I became a bit unhinged.
It is true, of course, that I oppose the ethno-religious, uber-militaristic state murderously oppressing these victims. It is a vile, racist entity.
Now that is flatly false. While I find Sands’ radical universalism interesting, I don’t really share it. I myself identify as culturally Irish-Catholic, and several of my favorite writers on the I/P situations are Jews who feel themselves to be acting within the Jewish prophetic tradition, e.g., Max Blumenthal and David Harris Gershon.
Below CraigSummers asserts that I am guilty of the following:
For now, I wish to address only point #2.
Craig is conflating the right of self-determination with the alleged”right” of Israel to exist as a Jewish-majority state, on land largely appropriated from others.
How can a nation-state have a “right” to exist? They come and go. Does the former Soviet Union have standing to go before the Hague and demand the right to exist? What is the remedy when this “right” is breached?
If Craig is arguing that a Jewish right to self-determination means there must exist a nation-state that maintains a Jewish majority, by what moral means is this majority to be effected?
Do white U.S. protestants have a “right” to a white, Christian America? (OK, sneaking in an inquiry regarding Craig’s point #4 by addressing another supremacist claim.)
I have easy and quick replies to Craig’s other items, but #2 is the most needful of his attention.
I hate to agree with Mona, but I do.
Happens to both of us w/ unnerving frequency.
Elliot Abrams was convicted for lying(misleading) to congress about our involvement in the Iran Contra affair(ancient history) and yet he had a prominent position in Bush’s admin(regime). Otto Reich was from the Reagan days who under Oliver North was also involved in the Iran Contra “affair”( someone commited adultry?). His reward was ambassadorship to guess where. Venezuela.To me it’s clear evidence that while the NSA is truly shredding our constitution, the CIA and their ilk are the real puppet masters. Every once in a while one of their clandestine(illegal) operations is revealed and people are hauled before congress and a lot of time and money are spent making a lot of noise and assurances are given and maybe a couple of bills are introduced. Of course these bills will never be adopted, at least not in the form in which they were introduced. Until we the people gain control of our country, this pattern of intervention in any country we feel like subjugating will just keep on rolling along. We can even recycle some of the same agents. The locations may change but the same names keep popping up. Empire left “We the People” quite a while ago. Keep on fighting, people.
“With yesterday’s resignation of President Barack Obama, US democracy is no longer threatened by a would-be dictator. Mr. Obama, a ruinous demagogue, stepped down after the military intervened and handed power to a respected business leader, Richard Cheney.”
Just thought the Times article needed a little revision.
Comparing Hugo Chavez and Barack Obama is jovially absurd. Obama and Cheney are interchangeable parts of the same system. Both are mouth pieces of US capitalist imperialism. Cheney more so because, well, the false label of race still controls who ultimately is master.
Another interesting thing is how the media decides to term some protests ‘prodemocracy’ and others get labels that don’t mention democracy, or worse, get labeled as something antidemocratic. You might think that calling for democracy, or more democracy, or the restoration of a democratically elected government would play at least some role in the assignment of these labels, but not much sign of that. In Bahrain and Saudi Arabia, the label, on those rare occasions a protest against the dictatorships there are usually ‘Shia’ or ‘antiregime’ while protests in Iran and Venezuela which want to overthrow democratically elected governments get the ‘prodemocracy’ label. Occupy protests in America weren’t labeled prodemocracy, while those in Hong Kong does, despite both using the same name, having the same demographic make up, and the same demand, more democracy in their elections. In the Ukraine, those wanting to overthrow a democratically elected President for following his election platform got the prodemocracy label, those supporting the democratically elected President, and those protesting the overthrow, and the rather shoddy and rigged (by the exclusion of those from one side’s ability to vote) were labeled as antidemocratic. The only thing that the ‘prodemocracy’ label seems to indicate is a protest against a government that doesn’t kowtow to the Washington Lobbies, with no weight given to whether that government is democratic or not.
It’s all in the messaging, isn’t it? What makes the USA’s form of rule an administration while another is a regime? It helps me to put things in focus by switching the keywords around. My perspective is dramatically enlightened by doing that. People need to stop gobbling up their pablum as gospel. But that would require effort and thought and the regime, oh sorry, admin doesn’t want that.
THE EVILS BROUGHT BY EL NORTE
Blessings and prayers to those men and women of courage in Latin America who have stood up to the corruption and demonic actions and policies of El Norte.
If the American public really knew the truth of our government’s activities in South and Central America they would vomit, as total disgust gripped their heart and soul.
One day we will need to face the crimes of our government over many, many decades.
Yes! Our heart felt prayers go out to the people of Latin America.
Here is a link to those who want to do something in the effort to expose and stop this pattern of domination, especially in Central and South America. It’s an organization dedicated expressly for this purpose. “School of the Americas Watch” is their name and I will be joining them in November in protest at Fort Benning, GA. All are welcome. http://www.soaw.org/ . Sorry if it doesn’t show as a hyperlink.
I should have said all “who want to peacefully express their views” are welcome.
Beyond Good and Evil: Prelude to a Philosophy of the Future:
Religion and the master and slave moralities feature prominently as Nietzsche re-evaluates deeply held humanistic beliefs, portraying even domination, appropriation and injury to the weak as not universally objectionable.
The work moves into the realm “beyond good and evil” in the sense of leaving behind the traditional morality…
He then contests some of the key presuppositions of the old philosophic tradition like “self-consciousness,” “knowledge,” “truth,” and “free will”, explaining them as inventions of the moral consciousness. In their place, he offers the “will to power” as an explanation of all behavior; this ties into his “perspective of life”, which he regards as “beyond good and evil”, denying a universal morality for all human beings. which he regards as “beyond good and evil”,
“denying a universal morality for all human beings. ”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beyond_Good_and_Evil
The people of the world know about this hypocrisy and the suffering it is inflicting on them, those that can resist should be praised because of the powerful interests they face. The world has long known about the hollowness of their democracy promotion. Name the worst autocratic regimes in the world, they are their allies while calling Russia and non conformist as enemies.
excellent article – clear as a bell – thanks.
Is Greenwald planning to issue a retraction and an apology of his repugnant comments about Hugo Chavez and Fidel Castro and the anti-American protesters he reviled in his November 2005 blog post?
Quotes from Greenwald in November 2005: ” It is true that in this region there remains a small, fervent band of left-wing fanatics with crazed enthusiasm for the worn-out socialist/collectivist policies which have condemned millions upon millions of people throughout Latin America to poverty unimaginable to even the poorest Americans.”
“In Venezuela, this vintage left-wing anti-American fervor is not small but is predominant, which is what has led taht country to be under the repressive thumb of Fidel Castro-copy Huge Chavez, whose primarily interest in attending this Latin American regional summit seems to be to lure Bush and the U.S. into some sort of game of childish taunts rather than doing something constructive to aid his impoverished unstable country.
Other terminology used: “attention-craving Chavez” “Latin American socialist agitators,” “lovers of Fidel Castro,” “insist that the source of their severe economic woes is not their collectivist policies or national character, but the evil economic policies of the U.S.”
I think you have a lot to answer for Greenwald. You don’t get a pass in 2014 after passing off this ugly vitriol as “journalism” in 2005. Have you even apologized for these ugly remarks?
Mr. Glenn Greenwald, we hardly remember ye…
Before Mr. Greenwald’s last book (which I purchased) he stated over the years that replying to/engaging with the commentariat of his articles–from at least his Salon days forward–was very important to him. As so often occurs when celebrity skyrockets, faithful readers and supporters seem to be ignored and relegated to a lesser station in life to bickering forevermore over what they think Mr. Greenwald meant with something stated in his article, while he could–as he so often did in the past–clear up any misunderstanding by submitting his direct comments.
Yes, I know that Mr. Greenwald is exceptionally busy with his twitter account et al; however, perhaps he could reply to his readership herein in a meaningful way, or at least state one final time by telling them that they are no longer as important as they once were to him or his journalistic development. His readers will understand–fame and fortune do that to the best of intentions, although others and I somehow thought that he would be different from other run-of-the-mill success stories.
Regardless, Mr. Greenwald’s articles are exceptional, his books excellent, and his twitter content is extremely informative; therefore I will never broach this subject again.
“……Yes, I know that Mr. Greenwald is exceptionally busy with his twitter account et al; however, perhaps he could reply to his readership herein in a meaningful way, or at least state one final time by telling them that they are no longer as important as they once were to him or his journalistic development. His readers will understand–fame and fortune do that to the best of intentions, although others and I somehow thought that he would be different from other run-of-the-mill success stories……”
Completely absurd. At least he still responds to readers which is more than most of the journalists at the Guardian. .
Rare agreement with CraigSummers. I would like to see Glenn respond more frequently than he does, though, and maybe eventually he will find or make more time for that. But in the meantime he has been responding in all, or most all, of the comment threads that he has authored or co-authored articles for. There has never been a time that he either could or would reply often enough that some of those commenting in the threads weren’t compelled to take a crack at posting an answer to either a question he had been asked or an accusation that had been tossed at him. Commenters answer either by linking to something he had written or paraphrasing something he had written or basically making a best guess at an answer or rebuttal to the accusation. That is, in my opinion, just a part of an open forum conversation, no different or much different than everyone else in the thread interjecting hither and yon.
Everyone goes through a period where engaging with others helps to define and bring into focus their own world view. Once that view is cast in stone, the engagement becomes merely an irritation. Eventually, you simply start calling everyone else an idiot because their views do not accord perfectly with your own. Then you cease responding to them altogether. This is a natural process, an evolution in the development of one’s own Weltanschauung.
Benito, your old avatar picture looked dignified. Your new avatar picture looks unhinged. I liked your old one better – it’s a better fit with your style of writing.
There’s nothing wrong with human dignity – WE ARE ALL GOING TO DIE! – but it’s a relic of the past – WE ARE ALL GOING TO DIE! The world is increasingly unhinged – WE ARE ALL GOING TO DIE! – and it’s important to keep abreast of the times – WE ARE ALL GOING TO DIE! On the internet, hysteria is the new understatement – WE ARE ALL GOING TO DIE!
HaHa!
In perspective Benny, We are all going to die. Nobody gets out alive, at least not without divine intervention.
It is certainly true that the time pressures and stresses of the last year – being one of the very few journalists with the responsibility to report on the massive Snowden archive, with all of its attendant political, media and legal challenges – has left me with less time to do a whole variety of things I used to do more of, including responding to comments. Add to all that the unseen but still very substantial challenges of starting a new media outlet, as well as writing a book and then having to tour for two months to talk about it.
I’m human and, like everyone, have finite time and energy. There has been a lot of pressure to report the documents in the archive as quickly and aggressively as possible: that’s the obligation I undertook when I received them, and so that’s been my primary focus. Had it not been, I’m sure many of the people complaining that I spend too little time in the comment section would be complaining (rightly so) that I’m not spending enough time ensuring those documents are disclosed. Even with that being my primary focus, I still hear that complaint.
I don’t regard responding to comments as less important now than I did before. I’m trying to put aside more time to do so, and am vocally encouraging everyone else at the Intercept to interact with readers in the comment section to the articles they write. I think it’s a vital part of interactive, internet journalism. I’ve been interacting more recently than I have in the prior year, though still not as much as before that.
It’s easy to ascribe nefarious motives but the simple fact is that having primary responsibility with only a few other people for the Snowden archive has – just on the level of time commitment – made it very difficult to do all sorts of things I did before that happened. Just to take one example: I’ve published posts a lot less frequently over the last year than I did before that. I’m hoping that things are turning to some semblance of normalcy and I can return to my previously normal output of writing, which would include more comment section interaction.
That’s where we erred. We’re human but we assumed differently of you. Maybe if we didn’t expect more from others then we do ourselves we would be more sympathetic but we do which kind of makes us only partly sympathetic, pathetic.
“… perhaps he could reply to his readership … telling them that they are no longer as important … to him or his journalistic development.”
to suggest that readers are not important to a journalist is patently absurd…
recommended viewing:
The Revolution Will Not Be Televised
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Id–ZFtjR5c
The Grand Old Lady, the Best Newspaper in the World, the New York Times which hangs its editorial policy into the winds that currently blow in Washington, is a fucking joke.
They call themselves journalists? They’re a propaganda outlet. Period. Always have been.
And check us berating the rest of the world, urging them to accept our “democracy” with its unelected leaders like W and its Republican tantrum throwers who are working toward instilling Fascism — small wonder the rest of civilization laughs at us behind our back. They don’t love or envy us, they simply live in fear of the bully. The rest of the world has not forgotten that we’re the only country that has used nuclear bombs on foreign cities — twice.
“The Grey Lady” is now just an old crack whore…and has been for years. But…sshhhhhh…don’t tell self-important Noo Yackers…
I saw that you did recognize and put the blame where it lies at the feet of western capitalism’s as you put it “industry”. The main thrust of your article though as I read was in the political realm. Unless we recognize and call out the real threat(rogue capitalism) and pull away their fig leaf we will end up chasing our own tails. If we think we can change the system by engaging politically, they are laughing all the way to their own bank.
Brilliant article, Glenn. ‘Democracy’ as spelled out by the USA and other powers-that-are often goes through weird contortions to define its meaning. Vietnam… the Falklands, the list is endless. One wonders whether American angst over Putin’s recent Ukrainian excursions wasn’t merely a reaction of looking in the distorted mirror of economic and governance systems. ‘Let FreeDumb Ring!’
Uh,Russian excursions?What about American excursions all over the world nowhere near the USA,although you’d think with Mexico’s utter disaster,they’d focus on that,a direct and nearby threat to American security(or insecurity),next door.And this American felt absolutely no angst over Ukraine,it’s a foreign nation 8000 miles away,and absolutely relevant only to Zionists and their lackeys infected with Russophobia.
Fortunately US have become the only shining tyranny on the hill for everyone in the world to see and lough. Never less all our tyrant clients around the world including our European poodles of are the only ones looking up to join us up on this tall shining hill of tyranny.
This is not just true, but obviously true to anyone who looks.
What is amazing is that nobody seems to notice anyway. The US routinely gets away with this, almost nobody calling it out.
“Labor saving devices” – ha! Didn’t work out that way.
The new term – first appearing circa 1980 – is “productivity tools”.
But everything’s cool because, more than ever, I “love my job”.
As a 911 Truther, I have been doing a lot of research lately. Reviewing the evidence again and again, going back and forth, checking and re-checking. It’s very hard to say this, but I have come to the conclusion that our leaders, the people in Washington, DC and the Media are evil. Not just wrong, but actually evil.
So, yes New York Times et al are hypocritical and even complicit. Their blather about Democracy is a contemptible farce, but this…mythology allows them to portray themselves as “the good guys” regardless of what they actually do. They are literally discredited. They write and say things, but it is just meaningless blather designed to manipulate public opinion. I wish there was a better alternative.
Some might say they are not evil. They are Beyond Good and Evil.
@ Pedinska (drone strike)
Military commanders have to evaluate many factors when deciding how to engage a target. Available intelligence, proper recon on the ground, the enemy strengths, soldiers casualties, civilian casualties etc. I think you are suggesting the US military should have used special forces to capture Anwar al Awlaki instead of bombing his location. Maybe the risks associated with sending troops were too high. I do not know because I was not part of the decision process. My question is not on the military side because the order was to kill or capture. My question is what should politicians, decision makers do when local authorities (Yemen) make it clear they are unable to apprehend an individual who is recruiting, financing and planning terrorist activities on their soil.
Yes. Orders are orders. Funny how that excuse was vilified in the Nuremberg Trials post WW2…but are now being used again.
My answer to your question? Stay home, instead of continuing the USA! USA! USA! goose-step throughout the world.
Yes, I got your answer. Do not do anything while he keeps recruiting, financing and planning terrorist acts.
Awlaki was a propagandist dwarfed by the Zionist propagandists who infest our MSM,and should be dealt with by American patriots in the same way,although Awlaki was absolutely no threat to America outside of fevered Zionist minds,while the Zionists kill US every day.
WHAT???? That was not my question!!
@ Mona
Thank you,
1) Association to a terrorist organization according to United Nation Security Council 1267. Mr Anwar al Awlaki was listed by the United Nations in 2010.
http://www.un.org/sc/committees/1267/aq_sanctions_list.shtml
2) Fundraising, recruiting and financing a terrorist group according to the US government.
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2010/07/16/treasury-designates-anwar-al-awlaki-key-leader-of-aqap/
3)”Incitement to kill foreigners and members of the (Yemeni) security services”, arrest warrant issued by Yemeni authorities in 2010
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2010/11/201011613102535305.html
The First Amendment of the US constitution does not allow citizens neither to recruit for a terrorist organization nor to finance terrorist activities. Again, what were the choices available to the US government to apprehend him? The Yemeni judicial authorities even after issuing their own arrest warrant made it clear they could not engage in a conflict with the powerful tribes that were protecting him.
Steb, I am aware of the Yemeni charges, which were adjudicated in that nation.
But what I am unaware of is any indictment of Mr. Alwaki for American crimes. Where is that?
Association with Al Qaida is considered a crime under United Nations Security Council, and under US laws, which allow the President of the United States to use all “necessary and appropriate force” against any organizations and persons involved in the September, 2001 attacks.
Basically the President of the United States is authorized to capture or kill any members of Al Qaida.
United Nations: http://www.un.org/press/en/2010/sc9989.doc.htm, http://www.un.org/sc/committees/1267/NSQI28310E.shtml
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c107:S.J.RES.23.ENR:
My question was not related to whether we should trust the US government. I already know how most of you would answer to that. Stop deviating from my point and go straight to it. How would the US government apprehend a suspect abroad who is financing and planning terrorist acts according to the United Nations and the local government against its citizens when the local government clearly states that it is unable to capture the individual and bring him to court?
Association with Al Qaida is considered a crime by the UN and the US Congress has authorized the President to use all necessary and appropriate force against Al Qaida members. Stop deviating from my point. How would you apprehend him when the local government states that it is unable to capture him?
No it hasn’t. An Al Qaeda member sitting in his living room in Yonkers can’t just be bombed.
So again, what charges have been leveled against Awlaki, who is an American citizen?
1)Let’s review your argument. According to you, being a member of Al Qaida is not crime? US Laws state the opposite for members of a designated terrorist organization.
https://web.archive.org/web/20060628111524/http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/fs/37191.htm
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/PLAW-107publ40/pdf/PLAW-107publ40.pdf (Congress authorizing use of force against Al Qaida)
2) an American criminal sitting in his living room is unlikely to be bombed by the US government because the government of the US has a good control over its territory. The same applies for the Spanish, the French, the Indonesian and many other governments that have apprehended Al Qaida suspects. That is completely different in Yemen. Again How would you have brought him to the court room?
AlCIAda,and ISUS,right?Sheesh,what a maroon.or is it misdirection?I’d deviate from anything you say.
It never was Glen it is and still is a illusion a police state definitely “YES” warlike “YES” treated like mushrooms fed manure and kept in the dark. “GOD BLESS AMERICA”
This practice is very common. Journalists don’t even have to bother to sit down and write anything.
http://rt.com/news/196984-german-journlaist-cia-pressure/
Hey Glenn,
Will you please officially apologize for this abysmally wrong 2005 statement of yours?
“It is true that in this region (as is true for the U.S.), there remains a small, fervent band of left-wing fanatics with crazed enthusiasm for the worn-out, socialist/collectivist policies which have condemned millions upon millions of people throughout Latin America to poverty unimaginable to even the poorest Americans.”
Of course, it wasn’t “socialist/collectivist policies which have condemned millions upon millions of people throughout Latin America” but the massive (US-led, US-caused, US-created) fascist assault on Latin America that did that. It was the “socialist/collectivist policies” which tried to lift the poorest citizens of Latin America from poverty. And it was the US funded atrocities: Pinochet-style fascism in Chile, Brazil, Bolivia, and Argentina, CIA spurned slaughter in Nicaragua, El Salvador, Colombia and Mexico, and outright genocide in Guatemala. Atrocities, especially experienced in Nicaragua by Reagan’s beloved Contras, which make the gruesome acts of ISIS look like absolute child’s play.
I know this is old, but it has always made me vomit. It pees on history and pees on Latin Americas who suffered unimaginable violence for wanting a better life for themselves and their fellows. Please retract it. And then retract it again.
With a few notable exceptions, the NYT’s collective nose smells like establishment ass. They and other WH loyalists need to be held accountable for their lack of journalistic integrity far more often than they are.
Nice work.
Can Glenn Greenwald run for President of the Universe please??? It’s about time The Intercept grew up and gave Glenn a sabbatical. God needs help.
Having in mind the next presidential elections here in my country, Brazil, I’d like to congratulate you Glenn for this article, very opportune.
Whenever U.S. political or media elites feign concern about the length of a foreign ruler’s tenure, it’s fun to go back to this 2009 quote from Hillary Clinton:
“We look forward to President Mubarak coming as soon as his schedule would permit. I had a wonderful time with him this morning. I really consider President and Mrs. Mubarak to be friends of my family. So I hope to see him often here in Egypt and in the United States.”
Source: http://www.state.gov/secretary/20092013clinton/rm/2009a/03/120115.htm via Jonathan Schwarz
Great article. To the point, and concise.
Chavez was a Socialist. Morales is a Socialist. Kashama Sawant is a Socialist. Malala Yousefzai is a Socialist. The Angry Arab guy is a Socialist. Noam Chomsky is a Socialist with reservations, and is more comfortable being called a ¨Syndicalist,¨ which is really just code for a Socialist who didn’t want to feel the burn of the McCarthy witch hunts, and I completely understand that. Martin Luther King was a Socialist, but shared more in common with a strain of ¨spiritual socialists” ranging from Juan Jose Arevalo and Miguel Angel Asturias in Guatemala, to FDR’s first vice president Henry Wallace, who was born in Iowa, and therefore, from a contemporary – politically correct-identity politics perspective, might not seem to share anything in common with the first democratically elected president of Guatemala (Arevalo), or the Noble Prize winning and Lenin Peace Prize winning author and diplomat (Asturias) from Guatemala, but all of them, including MLK, experienced a movement for independence from agricultural serfdom. Alabama is further in distance from Missouri than it is in ideology. What would Rand Paul do? I was really proud of Rand Paul when he spoke against the paramilitarization of the police force in the US, and specifically in Ferguson. But, what if Eric Holder, who, I know for sure, is no friend of The Intercept’s, were to have indicted Darren Wilson federally, What would Rand Paul do??
So, Greenwald, Hussain, Scahill… who are your favorite socialists? Is it safe to open up this conversation, or will Rand Paul censor me from the board in the name of 1st Amendment protected free speech? I would love to know Greenwald’s take on Citizens United. You know the ACLU voted something like 52% in favor of writing an amicus brief for Citizens United? Where do you stand on this issue from a legal perspective? Is money speech? Also, this is not a ‘partisan’ attack because the AFL-CIO also wrote an amicus in favor of Citizens United. Come on… this is softball… respond and give me something interesting to discuss tonight at dinner.
Toodaloo, Sweetypies!
It was ambivalent, but at bottom this is his position:
http://www.salon.com/2010/01/22/citizens_united/
Glenn’s “absolutist” position on Citizens United was myopic at best:
“Let’s start with the obvious: Citizens United helped unleash unprecedented amounts of outside spending in the 2010 and 2012 election cycles. Outside groups existed before Citizens United, but were legally limited in the ways they could use that money to influence elections. Citizens United, in combination with a lower court case called SpeechNOW.org v. FEC, paved the way for direct corporate spending and the creation of super PACs, which can accept unlimited contributions from corporations, unions and individuals for the purpose of making independent expenditures. During the 2012 cycle, in which non-party outside spending tripled 2008?s total and topped $1 billion for the first time, super PACs accounted for more than $600 million of that spending. […]
Outside of the public eye, major corporations may be even more active in elections. That’s because Citizens United also gave rise to “dark money” groups, nonprofits that don’t disclose their donors publicly but enjoy the same right to make independent expenditures as for-profit corporations. Such groups spent $256 million, or just over a quarter of all non-party outside spending, in the 2012 elections; how much of that money came from corporate treasuries is unknown.” (Open Secrets website; Four Years After Citizens United: The Fallout)
There was significant opposition to Glenn Greenwald’s “absolutist” read of the SCOTUS Citizens United decision at the time. For example, Doug Kendall wrote a January 26, 2010 article entitled “What Glenn Greenwald Got Wrong about the Constitution” wherein the author largely focuses on “Justice Stevens’ analysis of why Congress can restrict the ability of corporations to spend unlimited amounts of money to get their way in American electoral politics.”
“And while the majority elides the issue of corporate personhood and the question of whether money is speech, these issues form a big part of Justice Stevens’ analysis of why Congress can restrict the ability of corporations to spend unlimited amounts of money to get their way in American electoral politics. Justice Stevens explains patiently both how corporations differ from human beings and how corporate resources are not “an indication of popular support for the corporation’s political ideas.” A ban on corporate expenditures is constitutional, Stevens argues, because it does not “prevent anyone from speaking in his or her own voice.” (Dissent at 77.) He concludes that “corporate spending is ‘furthest from the core of political expression,’” (dissent at 77,) because corporations have no autonomy or dignitary interests in freedom of expression; in fact, corporations, by law, must concern themselves only with maximizing profit. Therefore, prohibitions on such spending “impose only a limited burden on First Amendment freedoms.” (Dissent at 79.) In other words, because corporations are not people, and because money is not really speech, the justification needed for a ban on corporate spending on elections is not the same as the justification the government needs for banning political speech by individuals.” (Constitution Accountability Center Website; What Glenn Greenwald Got Wrong about the Constitution).
I have never supported the principle of rule by a group of shadowy behind-the-scenes power brokers – that is a dangerous form of government. Restraining campaign spending simply means that powerful players find other, surreptitious, ways to exert their influence. Allowing them to dictate the outcome of elections in plain sight, allows the people to know who rules them. That constitutes progress.
Some people insist on clinging to the discredited notion that laws can restrain the powerful. In fact, laws are created by the powerful to restrain the citizenry. It should not surprise anyone that the ‘rights’ granted in the Constitution only accrue to the powerful.
So the question for someone who supports social justice (assuming anyone actually does), is whether it is more principled to support those rights and demand they be made universal, or to support universality and demand those rights be taken away from the powerful. Neither position has any prospect of success, but you can choose which way to lose.
il douchebag, why did you decide to come into my humble abode and take a shit on the floor? Don’t you have more manners than that?
What if I decided to come into your mansion and piss in the ice trays?
At best you make no sense.
I think you just did.
il douchebag, that’s not piss… that’s frozen lemon to put in your limoncellos after dinner with Machiavelli and Berlusconi… maybe even Micheal Grimm and Domenic Recchia…
However, Franco is at the tapas bar singing karaoke tonight. I heard he’s a big fan of Lil Wayne, yes?
¨I tend to take a more absolutist view of the First Amendment than many people, but laws which prohibit organized groups of people — which is what corporations are — from expressing political views goes right to the heart of free speech guarantees no matter how the First Amendment is understood.¨
I also tend to use hyperbole.
¨Does anyone doubt that the facts that gave rise to this case — namely, the government’s banning the release of a critical film about Hillary Clinton by Citizens United — is exactly what the First Amendment was designed to avoid?¨
Does anythoust doubtest that the issue at hand was misconstrued by John Roberts? Does anythoust recognizith that the issue at hand was grounded in the question of broadcast and not print? Doesth thoust not thinkith that a group which haveth the economic advantage to broadcast political advocacy should be restricted from using their means 30 days before an election? When Roberts questioned a representative from the FEC he spoke of print and broadcast as one in the same. He made a case that blocking a documentary critical of Hillary Clinton within the limits defined by the BCRA were tantamount to censoring literature, which, if looked at in such simplistic terms, would be unconstitutional. But, this is not the case. Did the founding fathers, those slaveowning genocidal maniacs, have broadcast media? When you take a shot at the NYTimes, and rightfully so, are you not actually strengthening my case? Also, the issue with the Clinton Documentary was specifically a dispute if Citizens United, heirs to the good tidings of the founding fathers, could use Video on Demand to bypass BCRA regulations. Then, of course, SCOTUS opened up campaign financing to the circus on the grounds that money is speech.
Just because one agrees that it’s none of America’s business who runs Venezuela, etc doesn’t mean you have to accept the narrative of this article that Chavismo has somehow made that country better off. The place is an economic basket case mostly because of the nonsensical policies implemented by the government there, not despite them.
The US and UK are economic basket cases as well. Shouldn’t be too long now before the US will be down the gurgler.
Have you ever wondered why a country like Venezuela is undergoing economic troubles, whereas countries with similar models of development, like Ecuador and Bolivia, are doing quite well?
Part of it probably comes down to competence of the respective leaders. That has to matter more than ideology. But also, there’s more at stake in Venezuela. It gets more international attention. A lot of powerful people need to see it fail. This is not a conspiracy theory, given that we have cables from the US embassy in Caracas.
Let’s list all the recent instances of where the US government has demonstrated that its definition of democracy is when someone considered malleable is elected:
The above article:
Bolivia
Venezuela
Very recent:
Ukraine
Egypt
Fairly recent:
Palestine
This list is not necessarily complete! Please feel free to add. We might also discuss whether or not it counts when the US installs a leader, as in Iraq (twice now, or is it three times?) and Afghanistan, then hails it as a triumph of the will of the people. (But which people?)
My reading of the editorial differs. The NYT (right before the part quoted in the second block): “To varying degrees, Latin America’s entrenched rulers have weakened institutions and asserted greater control over the press. Staying in office for several terms enables leaders to appoint allies to electoral and judicial bodies and to build patronage networks that turn out the vote. The starkest, and most alarming, example is President Nicolás Maduro of Venezuela, Mr. Chávez’s handpicked successor, who has turned his country into an autocratic, despotic state.” The argument is that long-term heads of state have undermined democratic institutions in South America and adds that that has been bad for U.S. interests. It does not say that undermining democracy means undermining U.S. interests by definition. The particular institutional structure of translating votes to decisions matters in all “democracies,” which are never simply universal adult suffrage coupled with majority rule. The true weakness of the offending editorial is that it fails to mention how U.S. policy creates a receptive electorate for anti-U.S. politicians in Latin America.
Nonsense! Those Latin Americans are genuinely popular with the voters. Their approval ratings are in the 60-70%. . And even the opposition and international groups all agree the election in Bolivia was fair and free.
I think the best quote from this article is the following
“It is, of course, true that democratically elected leaders are capable of authoritarian measures”.
I agree. For instance, the so called enhanced interrogation techniques were just the legalization of torture by the elected government of the USA. We can also add, since Mr Greenwald carefully avoided to mention it, political discrimination, control of the judiciary, undermining freedom of expression under Chavez’s rule (Human Rights Watch).
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2008/09/18/decade-under-ch-vez
Every single government on this planet supports or condemns other governments based on its own interest. The forms of government in another state is actually irrelevant. How many of you believe it was a bad idea to support Stalin, a hardcore dictator, against the NAZIS? However, since the elected government of the US did not support Stalin after the war, it uses Stalin’s authoritarian measures against him. The same principle applies in other countries. The elected government of the USA may use Chavez’s human rights records or Hamas violent terrorist acts, (which Mr. Greenwald usually forgets to mention) in order to condemn these governments it does not support. Again, in this world you pick between the bad and the worst. Between the authoritarian Saudi King and the insane Saudi fundamentalists. Between the Vatican that protects child molesters or the Iranian Ayatollah who would jail whoever challenges his authority. Between the US where you can challenge and vote against a president and lawmakers who support “enhanced interrogation techniques” or Russia where challenging the president’s invasion of another country might get you in serious trouble.
Oh, yes, in the USA! USA! USA! it’s a democracy…where corporate interests choose the candidates as opposed to communist countries, where the Party chooses the candidates.
Oh yes, in the USA! USA! USA! It’s a democracy…where you can CHALLENGE corporate interests, PICK AND VOTE your own candidate as opposed to communist countries, where the Party chooses the candidates, forbid opposition parties, prevent freedom of speech.
Corporate can pick their own candidates and you can pick yours. If you are unable to convince others to follow your ideas and to help you finance your campaign, then it is more about you than about the US form of government.
This comment reeks of an unwillingness to understand the dynamics of political power. It’s, very simply, stupid.
Your comment trivializes the corruption that permeates throughout the U.S. Government. Yes, you can challenge corporate interests but big money controls the political process to the point the voice of the contrarian who opposes tyranny is squashed by the falsity of the “democratic electoral process”. Elections are nothing more than Hobson’s choice and the only option permitted to the citizenry is to continue the perfidy of Washington’s agenda to enslave the American people in crushing debt, perverted patriotism and the delusive belief the central government cares for the general welfare of the electorate.
Corporate fascists control the federal republic and the republic will eventually be replaced by a unitary government in line with the majority of central administrative authorities around the planet. The American people cannot think for themselves anymore; they rely on the mainstream national news controlled by six multinational corporations and the movie and television entertainment industry that are nothing more than propaganda channels to deceive the public into legitimize foreign intervention by bribing, bullying and bombing other sovereign nations.
Washington politicians and their bureaucratic minions enact more and more onerous federal laws and regulations which are upheld by a judiciary circuit that no longer speaks with an independent voice but it too is controlled by the almighty fiat dollar. To continue with the fiasco of unfettered elections that are contrived to perpetuate these “heroes of evil” is insanity. It will only lead to the complete destruction of the constitutional balance of power the Founding Fathers envisioned for the great American experiment of protecting the “laws of nature and of nature’s God” by restraining those in power lest they devolve into abject despotism which is the state of affairs in American government today.
Wow! That is a very pessimistic view of the future. Well, I challenge you to rally as many people as you can to follow you and perform the necessary changes. I am sure that you are aware that even American teenagers have managed to set up powerful multinational corporations to defend their political interests. So, use a creative strategy to promote your viewpoints. You will not go to jail. This is not Cuba or North Korea.
Uh,in the west,capitalism decides the voters choice,in Communism, they decide the voters choice.Both examples of non democracy,although the Chinese seem to care about their people,unlike capitalism,which only cares about wealth for a few.
In what context has Greenwald cited Hamas in which “mention” of its “violent terrorist attacks” are sorely missing?
Thank you,
Mr Greenwald believes that democratically elected leaders are capable of authoritarian measures. He is right. However, he limited his examples of authoritarian measures to the US. His article refers to Latin American politics, but yet he did not provide any examples of an elected leader in South America who has used authoritarian measures against his opponents. He uses the example of the US elected government support to the elected government of Israel, which he believes is oppressive, but he did not mention the oppressive and criminal nature of the elected Hamas government that aims at destroying another state. Mr Greenwald does not have a balanced approach in his articles, which reflect more his anti Americanism than his belief in the truth.
Mr. Greenwald’s articles are the balance.
Hamas are nothing more than blowback from previous idiotic Israeli and Western policy.As is ISUS,and Alciada,monsters from our id.
The Communists have been purged by Islamists,and the more we press,the more they will go further right in policy.Rightists(US and Israel) vs rightists(AlCIAda and ISUS),both stuck in self defeat.
Well,if I was elected leader of a nation with a press dedicated not to the peoples welfare,but the oligarchs,I’d neuter that institution at once,no problem.The fee press.We need more Chavez’s(and Bolivia and Ecuador)not less
For those interested, Barbara Ericson has a started a blog called TimesWarp: What the NY Times doesn’t tell you about Israel and Palestine, and it’s worth subscribing to. New York Times articles are deconstructed and critiqued for accuracy (rather, inaccuracy) and Ericson also analyzes what important information the Times selectively omits from stories.
You can learn a lot on this site and you won’t get bombarded with emails. TimesWarp also provides information about how to write editors at the Times with criticisms or complaints about stories and editorials.
I will link the “about” page here, to anyone interested in reading why Ericson decided to start blogging about this subject in 2012:
http://timeswarp.org/about/
Hi Dabney
I would also recommend the site, CIFWatch, which monitors the Guardian newspaper for the same kinds of things – or as they say:
“…..Welcome to CiF Watch, dedicated to monitoring antisemitism and combating the assault on Israel’s legitimacy at the Guardian and its ‘Comment is Free’ blog……”
Yes, like RT…Russia Today. Those sneaky Russians, cloaking the bent of their journalism in the title…RUSSIA Today!
CifWatch refuses to say whether they are an agent of Likud in Israel, or dominated by AIPACers.
They probably support continued world Jewish domination.
No, CiFWatch is just a rabid nest of fascist Zionists who hold especial hatred for Glenn Greenwald. The site owner not long ago posted a string of Glenn’s truthful claims about Israel/the lobby as if his statements were not manifestly true: http://www.algemeiner.com/2013/07/11/glenn-greenwalds-anti-semitism-exposed/
Well sillyputty. You certainly made some great points about “labels”. Maybe you want to comment on the labeling by Mona?? Maybe even Dabney would like to straighten Mona out on the use of labels.
But Craig, CiFWatch objectively isa rabid nest of fascist Zionists who hold especial hatred for Glenn.
“Well sillyputty. You certainly made some great points about “labels”. Maybe you want to comment on the labeling by Mona?”
Thanks Craig. Looks like Mona has explained her already self-explanatory label, noting correctly that it was an objective and succinct view being presented. This is in comparison to the all too often rather broad, ambiguous labels that you choose to use, i.e., “far-left”, etc.
Yea sillyputty. Nothing broad about using a “label” that is difficult at best to define. For example, according to Wikipedia, fascism
“……Fascism (/fæ??z?m/) is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism[1][2] that came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe. Influenced by national syndicalism, fascism originated in Italy in the immediate aftermath of World War I, combining more typically right-wing positions with elements of left-wing politics,[3] in opposition to liberalism, Marxism, and traditional conservatism. Although fascism is usually placed on the far-right on the traditional left–right spectrum, a number of academics have said that the description is inadequate.[4][5]…..”
There is nothing objective or succinct about using the label, fascist, which combines elements of left wing and right wing politics. It’s a commonly misused term of abuse which is applied by Mona to Jews who support their right to self-determination (Mona also applies other terms to Jews like Zionism is racism and a Jewish state is an ethno-supremacists ideal).
“…….the term fascist has been used as a pejorative word,[56] often referring to widely varying movements across the political spectrum.[57] George Orwell wrote in 1944 that “the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless….”
Wikipedia defines left wing fascism:
“…….Left-wing fascism and left fascism are terms that have been used to describe tendencies in left-wing politics that contradict or violate the progressive ideals with which the Left is usually associated……”
If anyone is a “fascist”, it’s Mona who agrees with former Klan member and right wing anti Jewish racist, David Duke, who went to Iran to attend the Holocaust denial Forum in Tehran (featuring Ahmadinijad). I couldn’t possibly provide a better example of the apparent contradiction between far left and far right politics which clearly comes together over the issue of Jews and Israel. So who are the fascists – Mona or the Zionists? Objective and succinct? Mona was featured on CIFWatch which I’m sure she wears as a badge of honor, but she should be embarrassed.
You cannot win this sillyputty simply because fascism is not a concise label – pure and simple. There are really no concise labels in politics, but generalities. Thus, this exposes your political motivation for challenging the label – far, fringe, radical, and hard left.
Thanks sillyputty.
Craig gets something right!
AB-SO-LOOT-LEE. These days — and especially given the pernicious definition of antisemitism to which CIFWatch and other Zionists adhere — one is morally suspect unless and until one has been castigated as an antisemite.
“…….one is morally suspect unless and until one has been castigated as an antisemite……”
There are plenty of people that would agree with that statement, Mona. Here is a list of Jewish stereotypes.
1 Jews are more loyal to Israel than to [this country/the countries they live in]*
2 Jews have too much power in international financial markets
3 Jews have too much control over global affairs
4 Jews think they are better than other people
5 Jews have too much control over the global media
6 Jews are responsible for most of the world’s wars
7 Jews have too much power in the business world
8 Jews don’t care what happens to anyone but their own kind
9 People hate Jews because of the way Jews behave
10 Jews have too much control over the United States government
11 Jews still talk too much about what happened to them in the Holocaust
According to Dr. David Duke,
“……These eleven points [above] are well worth considering in detail, because they show that the ADL—and all Jewish Supremacists—actually know very well what the cause of anti-Semitism is (that is, Jewish behavior) and what they actually mean to find out with these surveys is not if people are “anti-Semitic” but rather how many people are aware of Jewish Supremacist activities and a pervasive Jewish racist tribalism that exists not only in Israel but across the world……This is because, incredibly, all of the eleven points are actually true—and the Jewish Supremacists know it!”…….”
No one is ever going to accuse David Duke of being morally suspect if they use your criteria. That’s a certainty.
Thanks Mona.
Craigummers, I’ll begin and end this discussion on the logical fallacy inherent in your ongoing and repetitive use if ambiguous labels that do not add to the discussion at hand, but in fact make things less clear and less universally well understood. Those who are as tired as I am of relying on such an overabundance of rhetorical imprecision used to explain complex positions in our local, internet, national and international discourse are the intended audience.
My apologies for the length – but context means everything – something which ambiguous and imprecise ad hominem labeling, i.e.: “that which effectively poisons the well of effective discourse”, is, and has been, the entire point here.
The discourse from the beginning with CraigSummers was not politically motivated, as Craig repeatedly and straw-manically asserts, it was simply meant to show that labeling, while it can be informative when precise enough and universal enough and subsequently explained to convey a thought effectively is a valuable rhetorical tool – but when used poorly and repeatedly used incorrectly is nothing short of intellectual laziness, and therefore counterproductive in the vast majority of our discussions, and that when it is being practiced poorly, those doing it need to be called out on it, each and every time it occurs.
This is an effort to curb this type of circular political discourse, committed by media and individuals alike, in an attempt for more clarity and understanding in what each others positions actually are, and how when those positions, if effectively and consistently pushed-back against and rejected as valid rhetoric, can lead to better outcomes for all of us.
The discussion starts at this link (should the TI comment section cooperate):
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/10/02/feigned-american-support-egyptian-democracy-lasted-roughly-six-weeks/#comment-80407
““Even hackneyed and commonplace maxims are to be used, if they suit one’s purpose: just because they are commonplace, every one seems to agree with them, and therefore they are taken for truth.” – Aristotle, The Rhetoric & The Poetics of Aristotle
Sure they would. He is morally depraved by my criteria.
But a clear-eyed understanding of the nation-state of Israel — its founding and ongoing behaviors — and its depredations on Palestinians, is not antisemitic. You see, Craig, Jews are not the only victims in the Universe. In point of fact, they have long been victimizing Palestinians.
And again, I am de-lite-ed to be on CiFWatch’s shit list. Most on it are the bestest people.
Hi Dabney
This is what you said in a previous thread.
“…..Craig, I wish you would stop saying things like “radical left philosophy.” You got your ass handed to you by sillyputty on this topic of labeling a few days ago. And there’s nothing wrong with getting your ass handed to you – as long as you take something away from the experience, other than a bruised ego……”
Mona has been calling Israeli Jews and Zionist “fascist” for as long as I can remember. I understand sillyputty. He is a huge supporter of Greenwald – so he is politically motivated. Certain “labels” don’t bother him – like fascist Zionists (or obviously even antisemitic comments by Mona). In your case, I take you at your word that political labels truly bother you (for whatever reason). Calling Zionists “fascist” is a political “label” (and a nasty one) – no different than labeling some a radical leftist. Personally, I wouldn’t wear either label proudly.
Regardless (and excuse my French), either shit or get off of the pot. Call Mona out on her use of political labels, or I will view your previous post (quoted above) as simple political bullshit.
Thanks.
HaHa Craig – I’m sure you would make a bowl of popcorn to see me in a cat fight with Mona – but it probably won’t happen. But, to address your point specifically regarding the label “Zionist fascists,” I don’t seen anything wrong with the term “Zionist” because it is a precise term. “Facists,” maybe not so much. I think the more precise word would be “fascistic.” If Mona wanted to be more precise in her wording, she could say “Zionists exhibiting fascist tendencies,” or something to that effect, but that verbal configuration is a tad cumbersome.
Regarding Sillyputty, I was reading his comments closely the other day, and looking at the way he expresses himself, and I’m beginning to suspect that Sillyputty and Glenn Greenwald are in fact the same person. So my advice to you would be the next time you find yourself in a situation like that last skirmish you had with Sillyputty: Stop talking immediately and Run Away. Run. Away. And live to fight another day.
I see your tone is becoming more relaxed and playful. Not sure if that is a good thing.
@CraigSummers – can I clarify one more thing? I don’t think all Zionists are fascists, or even fascistic, but some are, and some are more so than others. I think Mona would agree.
“…..HaHa Craig – I’m sure you would make a bowl of popcorn to see me in a cat fight with Mona – but it probably won’t happen….”
Yep…..and a beer.
“……“Facists,” maybe not so much. I think the more precise word would be “fascistic.”…..”
Fair enough Dabney. I will use the terms “faristic leftistic and radicalistic leftistic” in the future. There should be no problems with “labels” on future threads.
“…..Regarding Sillyputty, I was reading his comments closely the other day, and looking at the way he expresses himself, and I’m beginning to suspect that Sillyputty and Glenn Greenwald are in fact the same person. So my advice to you would be the next time you find yourself in a situation like that last skirmish you had with Sillyputty: Stop talking immediately and Run Away. Run. Away. And live to fight another day……”
I like sillyputty, but when he addresses “labels” by someone he disagrees with politically while allowing labels (fascist) and bigotry from someone he agrees with politically, then you understand why I don’t take his argument seriously. So there is nothing to run from. I don’t expect a lot of support on this kind of site (radicalistic leftistic).
Thanks Dabney
“……I don’t think all Zionists are fascists, or even fascistic, but some are, and some are more so than others. I think Mona would agree…..”
I consider you to be a fair-minded individual, Dabney……..Mona not so much (when it comes to the subject of Israel).
She does!
At its base, Zionism holds the seeds for fascism. Generations of Zionists have attempted to square the circle by making Israel simultaneously an ethno-religious supremacist state and also a liberal Western democracy. Many Israelis have resisted the intrinsic fascism of their ideology. At this advanced stage, however, even in the Knesses there are overt fascists acting in israel.
When I claim Zionists are fascists, I am not calling names or waxing hyperbolic: I mean it literally, as a reasonably well-educated person would understand the term.
Mona
“……Generations of Zionists have attempted to square the circle by making Israel simultaneously an ethno-religious supremacist state and also a liberal Western democracy. Many Israelis have resisted the intrinsic fascism of their ideology. At this advanced stage, however, even in the Knesses there are overt fascists acting in israel……..I mean it literally, as a reasonably well-educated person would understand the term [fascism].”
I am certain you believe what you write, Mona, but there are lots of reasoned well educated people that are bigots like DOCTOR David Duke. He has a PhD in History. Education doesn’t mean a fucking thing because you clearly embrace your own prejudices. I could possibly understand your deep seated hatred if your were of Palestinian origin (based on over one-half of a century of war). In your case, there are multiple problems with your position which calls into question the quality of your education.
1. You embrace conspiracies that Jews run the Republican Party and our government – in the interests of Israel (Jewish power).
2. You deny Jews their right to self determination. Self determination is the right of the Palestinian people (ICJ decision) – and therefore the Jewish people as well.
3. You delegitimize Zionism (reestablishment of a home for the Jewish people) by equating it to racism and a Jewish supremacist ideal.
4. Of course, you only apply your criticism in the case of a Jewish state. All other religious/ethnic “supremacist” ideals are ignored.
Thanks Mona.
Non sequitur. I said, and it is true, that Israel is now trending fascist, and by “fascist” I mean as that word is understood by the average well-educate person. David Duke, his CV & etc., have nothing at all to do with this global understanding.
Stay on point,l Craig.
Craig, I would be interested in hearing your working definition of what “the radical left” is. Because I have no idea what that term means. When I hear it, my first association is something like The Weathermen in the 1960s in Chicago, and I don’t even know much about those guys. I know you think of Mona as being representative of “the radical left,” but that would mean you think I am too, since I probably agree with Mona 90% of the time. In fact, I mostly only disagree with Mona in terms of her delivery, which I think at times could be more gentle.
But if you would apply the label “radical left” to me, then please enlighten me about what that means. Because I don’t have a manual of “radical left” talking points that predetermine the opinions I put forward in these dialogs. My opinions are always evolving, and they are formed from reading, thinking and learning and my own personal experience in the world – not blind adherence to some “radical left” doctrine or dogma.
When you label someone as “radical left,” it has the effect of dismissing their thoughts and beliefs by putting them in a neat little box, without weighing or trying to understand the complexities of that person’s unique perspective or even maybe how they arrived at that position. It’s not only disrespectful to the person you are labeling and dismissing, but you lose out too, because you miss out on an opportunity to learn something new. That’s what I dislike about labeling, especially in forums like these, where presumably the point is learning and understanding and growth. As opposed to using your opinions as cudgels to bludgeon your opponent into submission.
But anyway, “radical left” means… what?
Hi Dabney
In the past, I have defined the radical left poorly so on one of these threads, I will post a definition for you. You might be a radical leftist, but like the right and far right overlap, obviously so do the (liberal) left and far left – and it is not easy to define (like fascism). Look at the definition of left wing fascism derived from Wikipedia (above) and you can begin to see how I view the radical left – especially as it pertains to Israel.
Since fascism is associated with the right and most of the people that post at the Intercept consider themselves on the left, it is easy to see why the label, fascist, is acceptable (NSA) but the label, “radical left” is not (just as most people on the right would not want to be associated with radical right philosophy like fascism, white supremacy and so on). As I have pointed out, the extreme left and far right can be indistinguishable on some issues like Jewish power.
At any rate, I will get back to you on that one.
Thanks.
Thanks Craig – I’ll check that out.
Hi Craig, I looked at the article on Shlomo Sands on CIFWatch… and found myself agreeing with it, though I did not read Sands’ article in The Guardian that inspired the CIFWatch response.
I think being disgusted with Israeli State actions in Palestine, and contemporary politics in Israel, etc, should not equal being disgusted with one’s own Jewish identity. This is a huge, recurrent theme that some people struggle with, all the time. Okay?
Feel free to forward me any other CIFWatch articles you might think I would benefit from. Thanks.
Thanks Dabney. Have a good weekend.
Now, if only Europe would borrow a page from the South American playbook and untie itself from the tail of America’s sinking star, the world might be able to get on with a post-US-century multi-polarism. But the problem for citizens of America and its vassal states is that in times of crisis, we vote for right-wing parties and then wonder why things get worse instead of better. Sweden appears to have returned to its senses, but let’s wait and see.
As ironic and hypocritical is the fact that democracy in the US has become a sham, certainly on the national level. Elections are gerrymandered and bought by fabulously wealthy, greedy pigs. Voting laws are being changed to insure that minorities and the poor (among others) are not allowed to exercise their Constitutional right to choose their representatives. The 2-party system severely restricts choice and term limits are becoming meaningless as the 2 parties essentially merge on most significant issues.
it’s utterly depressing, isn’t it?
Had a typo in my comment name of all things, probably holding up a recent comment from posting. Would appreciate correction to this name if possible.
I made a typo to my email addie recently. The comment eventually posted but it took quite some time. I also had to be careful that the autofill put in the correct email addie for the remainder of that commenting session. I have been pretty careful ever since. :-s
One of the reasons I don’t comment as much as I’d like is that it is too much trouble for the most part – a lot of these systems seem so touchy, combined with my fat-fingered-ness, particularly on a smartphone. More likely the latter exacerbates the former, but you gotta blame the system. :)
I see your comment has now appeared below under the mysteriously fascinating handle, Rolloromasi. Just like what happened to me.
As you may or may not be able to see from my avatar, I am a delicate poodie with very small paws, but even tiny paws won’t help you if you have fyslexic dingers. ;-}
I hope you continue to post, no matter how many names you end up with. There seem to be many former posters who, like you, have been unwilling to wade through the complexities of posting here. I miss almost all of their contributions.
I love this article, Mr. Glenn, with one tiny concern. I’m curious why so careful (as The Guardian often is) to avoid any mention of the specific agency whose modus operandi’s been intentionally destabilizing fledgling social democracies for more than 60 years? If the implication here’s that NYT editors were long ago subverted into propaganda-aiding that MO, by whoever or whatever, it seems more than a bit logical the particular perpetraitors of both are likely one and the same.
Maybe someday when I’m feeling particularly “For a Fistful of Dollars,” (or Kurosawa’s Yojimbo, if you prefer) I might try out a pet theory on you. It’s about a decade long epic battle between two monolith intelligence agencies, one military and one civilian, perpetually trying to discredit each other without knocking down their mutual house of cards. The happy ending’s when OUR whole world finds “profit” from helping them actually destroy each other…
Glenn masterfully lays bare the establishment media’s role in promoting the propaganda once again.
Besides the variable definition of “democracy” that Glenn excoriates, another terribly – misleading word that reveals the ease with which the establishment media adopts the rhetoric of powerful interests is the NYT’S use of “redistributonist” to describe policies that provide more funding to poorer people.
For me, this word has the same nails – scratching – the – chalkboard effect that responses of “And this surprises you” has on Glenn and others. Policies that raise taxes on those with higher incomes are redistributonist, but policies that lower their taxes are not? The oil company that raises the price of your gas or bank that is constantly increasing your fees is effecting a redistributonist policy of transferring more of your money to them. It’s a loaded word and its usage be any pundit in the manner of the NYT betrays a bias (whether they realize it or not) that the default ownership rights to money and other assets on this earth belong 100% to the rich and powerful.
More of this sort of fat-fingered commentary please. :-)
“It is, for instance, democratically elected U.S. leaders who imprison people without charges for years, build secret domestic spying systems, and even assert the power to assassinate their own citizens without due process.”
Yeah, they do those things in Bolivia too:
Assassinate their own citizens without due process:
http://www.lostiempos.com/oh/entrevista/entrevista/20131110/jose-maria-bakovic-y-la-justicia-que-no-fue_234492_508424.html
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eduardo_R%C3%B3zsa
Imprison people without charges for years:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/05/AR2006090500596_pf.html
And finally, perhaps not a sophisticated spying system like in the US, but a form of collection of information on individuals:
http://www.latercera.com/noticia/mundo/2012/10/678-489680-9-gobierno-boliviano-esta-preocupado-por-insultos-a-morales-en-el-facebook.shtml
(“Aquí está en el celular, siempre estoy entrando al internet y voy anotando con nombre y apellido los insultos que le hacen.” Translation: “Here is my cellphone, I’m always going online and writing down the name and last name of those that insult [Evo Morales]” – the Vice Presdident)
I thought the NYT article was too soft on Evo Morales, whose ability to even run for a third term was in and of itself an act of corruption.
Btw have you even seen the official results from the election? Yeah, I don’t think so. Why? Because five days after the election all the votes have still not been counted. We all know he won because of polls made by privately owned, independent institutions and companies. That does not constitute a transparent democratic process.
Hey, this is one great article.
>”One of the most accidentally revealing media accounts …[snip]”
It ain’t no accident, Glenn. A lot of people depend on the NYT, the ‘paper of record’, for their NEWS.
*It’s not like they tripped and fell … and accidentally invaded Iraq (& a few other nations) or downed Bolivia’s Presidential plane by mistake, etc., etc.
This article is a good starting point, but it does not go far enough.
What I mean is that the word “democracy” is NOT used for the interests of the United States of America.
Rather, the word is code for (so-called) Free Market Capitalism’s imperialist domination of the planet.
The United States of America has been sold.
If the USA has no constitution which guides its actions, then it is not a nation. The now-former constitution is merely a pretense which is used to promote capitalist profits above all else.
When corporations control the population of any area and the well-being and (dare I say) rights of the population are held in contempt by the corporate controllers – that is fascism. It is a form of imperialism which has little regard for anything or anyplace which might hinder its accumulation of more wealth and THAT is what runs and maintains what is now the lie of a United States of America.
Call it Neo-liberal interests, call it Neo-Conservative interests, call it Corpora-fascist interests, but let’s drop the delusion that there is a United States of America.
As far as I can tell, that former entity was traded off after being bundled in with other over-inflated entities.
The toxic bubble has no tangible center.
I think there are two points here – 1. Is hypocrisy of a sort a bad thing 2. What is driving it. On 1 – I actually disagree with Orwell on this one. For all his amazing insight, I don’t see how he missed (to my mind) the fact that this seems to be a feature of the universe – the appearance of opposites in outcomes. We do put people in jail to preserve freedom, we live in relatively more poverty to save money and become wealthier, we go to war to preserve peace, we exercise and feel horrible while we’re doing it to feel better, we engage in ‘cruel to be kind’ actions with people like dragging them to rehab if they have a problem, and on and on. So fine, I accept that the world is a bit of a utilitarian nightmare sometimes and that’s just the way it is.
To point 2, though, I think that’s very important. Honestly I know very little about Bolivian politics (but I’ll certainly read something on it, after this article), but what you’re suggesting – that the driving factor acting as target for arrow here is not democracy but something else – I think the ‘something else’ is very important. Global security? Eh… maybe I could go with that. Economic interest so that we can have more money to do good things in the world… that chain is getting a little long and circular. I’ll have to read more about this. One day I’ll think about musing about pondering about forming an opinion on it, perhaps…
You’re doing it backwards. First form an opinion, then seek out evidence supporting that opinion. This is known as the scientific method (although they use the word ‘hypothesis’ rather than ‘opinion’). The reason is that, thanks to confirmation bias, finding the evidence is much easier if you already have an opinion. Otherwise everything looks like a jumble of random data with no intrinsic meaning.
Well, yeah .. it’s the same … except that in science, they have to report ALL of their data; They create systems of testing for hyptheses that reomove confirmation bias; They have to go through peer review to publish; If they draw false or misleading conclusions, they put their careers on the line, so they can’t “fail upwards” like neoconservatives and supply side economists can. So, apart from all that, it’s the same :—)
All that is necessary is for enough other people to share your confirmation bias. The purpose of publishing scientific research is to ensure that your personal confirmation bias becomes the conventional wisdom of society in general. This is particularly true in the social sciences, where you can reliably predict the outcome of an experiment based on who performs it. But it applies generally in other fields as well, even if the pattern is less pronounced. The peer review process and statistical validity tests are, I must concede, useful razzle dazzle to disguise the confirmation bias.
Agree that science is a very functional method overall, but probably more comparable to evolution than some standard of True Truth. Saying any particular claim is likely true Because Science is like saying any member of a species is probably healthy Because Evolution. It’s a slow process that trends in a given direction over long periods of time – not some kind of certificate of truth one can stamp on anything in a peer-reviewed journal.
Yes. Just like the US military man who said “we have to destroy that village to save it. We have to kill millions of people to ensure democracy. The US form of democracy that supports US interests is the only democracy that is valid even though the ‘elected’ leader is a US stooge. Yeah nah.
Spare me your libertarian hysteria, no one said anything about destroying villages. That said, I was up until 4:30 last night making ghost candle holders out of old food jars and tissue paper and arranging apples slices and candy corn to look like little monster mouths (Sometimes my inner Martha Stewart gets out before family gatherings, and apparently she is psychotic. And an insomniac.) and was rather bleary-eyed and fuzzy when I wrote this post. In hindsight I missed a few logical bridges. This article is more about vocabulary than tough calls, after all, and there’s a difference between word meanings and unhappy utilitarian truths. “Controlled violence decreases overall violence” may be true, “War is peace” is not true, of course. And democracy has a specific meaning, which should be respected when the word is invoked. It’s wrong to abuse words. There should be Word Abuse Hotlines for dictionaries to call when they feel that kind of thing is going on, staffed by dedicated prescriptivists.
Another excellent article Glen; Yes “democracy” as the word is generally taken to mean does not exist anywhere in the Western world where it is touted. Our World has become a Corporate, Political, Military and Religious dominated nightmare. The writing on the wall is a horrible scribble, created by delusionals, with weapons.
How true this piece is! I have long though foreign policy in this country was laughable and how god damn hypocritical it is. I personally was disgusted to see our government releasing Blackhawk helicopter shipments to Egypt as the military carried out a coup and was sniping dissidents in the streets. Its on video! The Egyptian military massacred protestors in the streets and John Kerry is on TV hailing the actions of the Egyptians. The crazy thing is how little anyone knows about that and how ignorant Americans are to foreign policy. They really do believe that our government is out there saving the world instead of bringing death and destruction upon sovereign nations and their populations. The foreign nationals who resist or try to fight back for their country are labeled terrorists and killed by predator drones. Its a grave injustice which will be brought to light eventually but it still doesn’t make the pill any easier to swallow. I feel really helpless as a citizen whose hard work helps this government commit these atrocities.
NYT: “But the pattern of prolonged terms in power is unhealthy for the region. It is troubling that the stronger democracies in Latin America seem happy to condone it.”
In 2008, during the debate about whether to amend NYC law (enacted by referendum) to allow Michael Bloomberg to run for a third term as mayor, the NYT made a vehement argument against term limits in general, The Limits of Term Limits:
“The bedrock of American democracy is the voters’ right to choose. Though well intentioned, New York City’s term limits law severely limits that right, which is why this page has opposed term limits from the outset.
“… Term limits are seductive, promising relief from mediocre, self-perpetuating incumbents and gridlocked legislatures. They are also profoundly undemocratic, arbitrarily denying voters the ability to choose between good politicians and bad, especially in a city like New York with a strong public campaign-financing system, while automatically removing public servants of proven ability who are at a productive point in their careers.”
Are you suggesting the NYT is speaking from the depths of more than one bodily orifice at any given time? The article clearly specifies that prolonged terms in power are unhealthy in one particular region, specifically, that which encompasses some Latin American countries disinclined to allow others to tell them how to run their business. NYC, however, is an entirely different region, one with a much longer and more reliable track record of leaders who servilely prostrate themselves before the diktats of their perceived superiors.
If one were to extend the thought experiment a bit further, then we might delve into the pseudo-royalty of nepotistic political dynasties so evident here in the US and how that prolongs terms in power, but then we might have to dredge up that old horsechestnut “hypocrisy” and we all know how chilly it can get around here whenever someone dares to challenge the aspirational boundaries of hegemony. ;-}
Language has a long history of being twisted and co-opted for the benefit of those who have no investment in honesty, or intellectual integrity. Another well written article, Glenn. The NY Times has clearly demonstrated its willingness to be a tool for corporate and political interest, again. Why anyone would expect otherwise from them at this point is another story for the telling.
Mr. Greenwald
Interesting article laced with the (typical) tiresome accusations of the hypocritical policies of the US government (I had no idea we supported the Saudi monarchy). And how could you have forgotten to mention CIA support for the murderous Pinochet in Chile, and the 1953 coup in Iran sponsored by the British and American spy agencies? And what would an article at the Intercept be without a mention of Israel despite having absolutely nothing to do with this commentary? Fanatically anti American opinion always includes mentioning US support for that plucky little democracy in Israel – and wasn’t it Morales who called the war in Gaza “genocide”? At any rate, one doesn’t need to look too deeply to find reasons why Morales is so popular at the Intercept (and generally with the far left ).
What we see in South America and in Eastern Europe today is push-back by people who were caught in the cold war between the USSR and the US. The so-called “area of influence” of powerful countries like the US extended into South America where the CIA had an active program to ensure that unfriendly Marxist rebellions didn’t gain traction. Many innocent people were killed because of US policies. No one can deny that – and the underlying anti American sentiment is exploited quite nicely (and rightly) by elected leaders like Chavez and Morales.
Leftist leaders like Morales and Chavez rightfully play on unpopular US policies during the cold war just as the eastern European countries that became free after the collapse of the Soviet Union beat a hasty path to the EU and NATO for many of the same reasons. Of course, at the Intercept, Russia sending troops into eastern Ukraine to ensure they maintain their “area of influence” is ignored (or supported) while a military coup attempt in Venezuela supported by the US is enthusiastically reported (time and time again). I can only imagine the outrage if the US sent troops to ensure the success of the coup in Venezuela to maintain their area of influence (which seems to be OK in Russia’s case).
It is also interesting how you ignore recent events in Venezuela which do, in fact, undermine their democracy. For example, the New York Times reported in September this year on a jailed opposition leader in Venezuela which gives some support for their concern for the democracies in South America (by using many of the same strategies like changing election laws, or limiting press freedom):
“………The imprisonment and trial of an opposition leader, Leopoldo López, show how far President Nicolás Maduro is willing to go to stave off legitimate grievances in a country he and his predecessor, Hugo Chávez, mismanaged. Mr. López, a 43-year-old Harvard-educated politician, has been jailed since Feb. 18, when the authorities accused him of instigating violent demonstrations. Some 1,700 demonstrators are awaiting trial…….Mr. López’s trial, which began in July, is a travesty. The indictment bizarrely contends that Mr. López, who peacefully called for Mr. Maduro’s resignation, incited violence through “subliminal” messages conveyed during public speeches demanding change that won him strong public support. The judge in the case approved more than 100 witnesses for the prosecution and rejected all but two defense witnesses. Mr. Maduro, who has called Mr. López an American pawn, has told reporters, “He has to pay, and he’s going to pay,” all but determining the outcome……”
It’s always just as interesting to read what you selectively ignore.
In addition, your disdain for neoliberal policies is clear evident (who cares?). The New York Times lends support for the redistribution of income and the decrease of income inequality in Bolivia and acknowledges the same in Venezuela. However, the New York Times also makes a good case for the failed economic policies of Chavez despite abundant oil reserves (September article):
“……his despotic governing style led the country down a dark path. And he drove out capital and talent by nationalizing key industries and asserting greater government control of the oil sector, the country’s economic engine. Insecurity and inflation soared during his years in power…….Mr. Maduro……has proved to be an even more dangerous and divisive leader. Venezuelans now suffer from shortages of basic commodities, including milk. Inflation surpassed 60 percent this summer. Leading economists have suggested that Venezuela, which has the world’s largest oil reserves, could default on its foreign debt this fall. Unable to reverse the decline, Mr. Maduro rails about foreign conspiracies and has throttled a once-free press. Several news organizations that used to be critical of the government have been forced by mysterious new owners to take pro-government stances……”
Remember when a truly free press was an important issue at the Intercept? As long as the country is anti-American in policies and rhetoric, an independent press is unimportant.
A typically good article – just (typically) far too narrow in political focus.
You had no idea that the US supported the Saudi monarchy? Could pictures of George W. Bush HOLDING HANDS with oil sheikhs not be a hint?
I think I was being sarcastic…. Hopefully, so were you.
So your whole comment was sarcasm?Your use of David duke and his alleged list of absolutes?,how about some,a lot or most instead of the (unsaid) all implied,and how about distrust or dislike instead of hatred?Of course the proverbial blind squirrel finds acorns sometimes(Duke).
As in 1;Too many.2 thru 7,some.8;some,most in Israel(95%).9;Very few hate Jews,but their is dislike and distrust,earned or not,it’s there.10;some.11:Most.
The bait was too juicy.
@CraigSummers
If someone points out irrefutable fact about your country. No matter how true and accurate it is. If it does not chime in with your nationalistic fervor. You reject it as Anti-Americanism or minimize and excuse it. You should really take off your filters and blinders. Read with open mind rather than with your extremely bias filters and blinders. Otherwise hold yourself to the same standard anytime you describe an unpleasant fact about a country, For example. If you say Syrian govt is killing its people. Consider yourself Anti-Syrian, Anti-Arab. Anti-Muslim. Because thats exactly what you do when Greenwald says something factual about your country. Why do you refuse to acknowledge the crimes and wrongdoings of your own govt? Everytime someone you agree with mentions the abuses taking place in China. Do you jump on them and demand why he never mentions the abuses in America? Of course you dont. You nod along.
Allow me to answer that comment since I do think that Mr Greenwald is anti American.
Only a naive individual would disagree with Mr Greenwald when he states that elected leaders are capable of authoritarian measures. The example he provides with regards to the elected government of the US supporting torture is very adequate. However, in most of Mr Greenwald’s articles, including this one, he carefully avoids to present the complete picture in sometimes complicated situations. He presents the US government as an entity that consistently picks the bad guys for its interests while it always has the opportunity to pick the good guys. You would be a fool to believe that the Saudi monarchy is not an oppressive regime. However, who are the oppositions in Saudi Arabia? Do they believe in basic freedoms? Do they even believe in democracy? What happened to the most lenient King in Saudi Arabia when he started serious reforms including sending women to schools? The reader who rely exclusively on Mr Greenwald would not know the answers to those pertinent questions.
He mentions quite often the US support for Israel. He obviously believes that the elected government of Israel is the bad guy in that conflict. However, who are the good guys in the conflict? The elected government of Hamas that specifically targets and killed civilians? A fact he rarely mentions.
He condemns the drone strikes because of lack of due process. However, he does not clarify the choices available to the US government when the local authorities (Yemen, Somalia) make it clear that they unable to apprehend the suspects who are continuously planning and leading violent criminal acts from their soil.
I ask that question again, does anybody believe it was wrong to support Stalin, the perfect example of a violent dictator, against the Nazis? Or I can ask another one, is it better to strategically deal with the Saudi King who has shown no interest in invading Irak, Syria…to form a caliphate than
dealing with ISIL that makes it clear it intent to destroy anybody on its path?
Abuses from the US, Russia, South Africa or any other governments should be reported and condemned. However, a journalist or even a commentator has a duty to report the whole story so the viewers or the readers can make the appropriate judgement based on fairness.
Ditto for you.
“…….Why do you refuse to acknowledge the crimes and wrongdoings of your own govt?……”
Well, if you read past the first paragraph, you would see that I did – but I’ll repeat it for you:
“……What we see in South America and in Eastern Europe today is push-back by people who were caught in the cold war between the USSR and the US. The so-called “area of influence” of powerful countries like the US extended into South America where the CIA had an active program to ensure that unfriendly Marxist rebellions didn’t gain traction. Many innocent people were killed because of US policies. No one can deny that – and the underlying anti American sentiment is exploited quite nicely (and rightly) by elected leaders like Chavez and Morales…….”
Don’t get me wrong Alvanzo. This was a long-winded comment so I don’t blame you for not finishing the post, but your response was off the mark precisely because you didn’t finish reading it.
Thanks
He certainly isn’t an American nationalist,but certainly an Israeli one,which of course,is his right as an Israeli citizen.An American nationalist would be outraged by current global internationalist policies of American demise.
First off, Greenwald’s critiques of US policy are “Anti-American” only if you you assume it’s “American” to violate the sovereignty of another nation by, for example, picking winners and losers in other country’s domestic elections/electoral disputes. If, by contrast, one’s conception of what it means to be “American” includes respecting the will of a citizenry as manifested in an election result (even if you disagree with that result), then (as usual) you’re completely off the mark.
Secondly, even if you thought the Greenwald’s criticisms of US policy were materially false or hypocritical, how exactly would that make him “Anti-American?” Show me exactly where Greenwald ever wrote or said “I hate America.” Oh, what’s that? You can’t show me because he never did, and you’re just playing the “Glenn hates America” card because you’d rather attack the man’s patriotism than refute his ideas.
Well, thanks for acknowledging that so forthrightly.
Oh, and while we’re having this lovely chat, allow me to point out that your endless repetition of the “Tu Quoque” fallacy (look it up) bores to the point of narcolepsy. The day Boris Putin invades Ukraine and kills hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians (and displaces millions more), that’s the day your counter-argument will make any sense.
Until then, why don’t you play in the shallow end.
“…….First off, Greenwald’s critiques of US policy are “Anti-American” only if you you assume it’s “American” to violate the sovereignty of another nation by, for example, picking winners and losers in other country’s domestic elections/electoral disputes. If, by contrast, one’s conception of what it means to be “American” includes respecting the will of a citizenry as manifested in an election result (even if you disagree with that result), then (as usual) you’re completely off the mark……”
First of all, have you ever thought that Greenwald might wear the anti American label proudly? He is so narrowly politically focused on criticizing US (and Israel) policy to the exclusion of almost every country in the world that it would seem likely that being called an anti American is something to be proud of – especially if as you say “…..it’s “American” to violate the sovereignty of another nation by, for example, picking winners and losers in other country’s domestic elections/electoral disputes….”.
I will be the first to admit proudly that I am anti Iranian. That certainly doesn’t mean that I don’t like the Persian people who are quite progressive (like Pierre Omidyar). I strongly supported their efforts to overthrow their government, but I oppose their government’s policies (like crushing the Green revolution, hanging gay people, propping up the murderer Assad and sponsoring terror). So I wear that label proudly. I’m anti Iranian. Call me that and I will gladly thank you. So maybe Glenn needs to answer for himself on this particular issue – and his answer might be surprisingly positive.
Second of all, the term anti American was used in my post exactly one time – one time in a post that contains 800 words which you had very little to say about except to provide cover for “Boris” Putin (“…..The day Boris [Vladimir] Putin invades Ukraine and kills hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians (and displaces millions more), that’s the day your counter-argument will make any sense……”). In reality, Putin not only illegally invaded a sovereign nation, but he illegally annexed a part of a sovereign nation. There have now been more killed in Ukraine than Gaza – a war in which Greenwald (and the fucking radical left) went ballistic criticizing Israel. Invasions by the Russian military are seemingly OK with you (which, by the way, helps define the term anti Americanism). You are a total hypocrite. Simple.
“……Oh, and while we’re having this lovely chat, allow me to point out that your endless repetition of the “Tu Quoque” fallacy (look it up) bores to the point of narcolepsy……”
Endless repetition? You have a posting history which you are hiding? So you are a coward as well.
Thanks.
“I will be the first to admit proudly that I am anti Iranian. That certainly doesn’t mean that I don’t like the Persian people…”
Apparently, the existence of individuals who identify themselves as Persian AND Iranian has escaped you. So, too, has the possibility that many who proudly call themselves Iranian completely reject the governing authority there.
But these are ambiguities that escape your narrow purview because they don’t comport with you true agenda – defending Israel from all attacks in the media (no matter how factual, justified, and/or beyond criticism they may be.)
Which is sad…because once you lose the ability to balance competing claims, to separate the justified criticism of a thing or idea from the materially false criticisms of it, you have lost your judgment – and therefore your claim on speaking publicly. And while you may make post after post, recycling the same shop-worm bromides and trotting out the same lies and half-truths – in reality, you’ve stopped saying anything remotely interesting or thoughtful or original or creative.
Btw, ad hominem just makes you look like a sore loser. Not a good look – but, hey, if the shoe fits.
Kisses…
you are full of it Craig…one may criticise government policies without being “anti Americkan”…one can be “anti National security Police State”, without being anti Americkan, because one should not conflate the National Security Police State that is running Americka these days, with Americka itself…by the same token, one may criticise Israeli Zionist aggressions against the Palestinians, without being “anti Semitic”, or “anti Israeli”…because not ALL Israelis or Jews in general support the Israeli government’s Fascist policies….
I think “narrow” is your cacacity to sustain any arguments contrary to this brilliant text. What has Russia-Ukraine to do with an article on Latin America politics:!
You are OUT OF FOCUS, nor Mr. Greenwald. No other country has killed so many millions of innocent civilians (just do the math in Vietnam, Camboja, Laos, Irak, Afganistan, the entire South America, Palestine, Egypt,Iran, Japan – the two atomic bomb were totally unnecesary, as it has been proved by documents the emperor would surrender anyway in weeks- and the list goes on and on.
Excelent Article, the Us do a they plese since 1830, when they srated to “conquer the west” and then begin stealing lands from Mexico, Puerto Rico etc…But at least some memorable losses prove their tactics is not accurate, by the contrary…One can conquer the world by soft and hard power, but not only the latter!
Shorter (and typical) Craig Summers:
Glenn Greenwald: “2 plus 2 equal 4″
Craig Summers: “Well…Glenn had a point. But note how he has to make it using ARABIC numbers! Once again, his anti-western, Israel-hating bias shows through!!!”
DrDave, ain’t no such thing. That’s an antisemitic myth.
I can’t believe how much of the conversation he drives in the comments section. I miss the Salon days when the comments section was much more lively and interesting.
Jesse
I agree. But at least drdave39’s posts are short.
Thank God.
The NYT is full of boilerplate Yank hypocrisy? In other news, bear shits in woods.
Another lovely exhibition of US, ahem, ‘respect’ for international sovereignty was the sad and desperate forcing down of Mr. Morales plane over Europe during Snowden’s flight to the relative, if unexpected, safety of Russia. It displayed, for all to see, the arrogance and hubris that are US policy imperatives, as well as the head-bobbing sycophancy that is European servitude to the whims of US leadership in corruption and warped power politics.
It was the pathetic overreaction of a bloated bully and the entire world witnessed it and saw it for what it was.
Too bad you don’t mention Cuba, really the best example of the US double standard. 15,000 Cubans volunteered to go to Africa to fight Ebola–isn’t that democracy in action?
“15,000 Cubans volunteered to go to Africa to fight Ebola–isn’t that democracy in action?”
NO. that would be a very commendable act of support for the poor African countries, but not democracy in action.
Democracy in action would be for the Cuban government to allow Cuban citizens to challenge their leaders, to have the opportunity to vote for other parties that do not share the actual social and economic policies, and to allow opposition views in the press.
Mr Greenwald, you state the following about the US government
“…even assert the power to assassinate their own citizens without due process”
I am wondering whether you could provide us with some ideas on how the US government could have apprehended Anwar al Awlaki and brought him to court?
He was under the protection of tribal leaders in Yemen as he recruits more personnel for Al Qaeda. The Yemeni government made it clear it was unable to start a conflict with the powerful tribes even with an Yemeni arrest warrant against him. So, how would you apply the concept of due process in this particular case? A situation where local authorities are unable to contain a criminal.
And the murder of his son and son’s cousin? Are you going to try and justify that also?
Avelna2001
“……And the murder of his son and son’s cousin? Are you going to try and justify that also?…..”
There was no evidence that his son was the target of the bombing. If he was, then that indeed would have been illegal as well as murder since his son was never associated with his dad – at all (as far as i know).
“There was no evidence that his son was the target of the bombing.”
I’m sure that comes as enormous comfort to the extended family. But, what if Awlaki’s son was riding with someone who was the target of the USM? Would he then be just so much “collateral damage”? Sad, maybe, but “Oh fucking well…he shoulda picked better friends.” Is that it? And I just love how you express a likely crime of the USG/USM as a conditional – “Yeah, sure, it would be illegal if…” and then…nothing. All that powerful intellect just hanging there impotent when faced with a consequence too awful for words.
When you make that claim you are aware that any evidence that there might be has been hidden and not allowed to be challenged?
Relative of Americans Killed by Drone Strikes: No Justice in US Courts
Having lost faith in the ability of U.S. courts to provide justice and accountability for their relatives’ deaths, the family members of three U.S. citizens killed by drone strikes in Yemen in 2011 have decided not to appeal a court decision dismissing their lawsuit challenging the killings.
The ACLU and the Center for Constitutional Rights, representing the parents and grandparents of Anwar Al-Aulaqi, Samir Khan, and 16-year-old Abdulrahman Al-Aulaqi, filed the lawsuit in 2012, charging that the killings violated the Constitution’s fundamental guarantee against the deprivation of life without due process.
Earlier this year, the court dismissed the suit on national security grounds in a decision that I described at the time as “treating the government’s allegations as proof while refusing to allow those allegations to be tested in court.”
–By Hina Shamsi, Director, ACLU National Security Project
“There was no evidence that his son was the target of the bombing.”
They essentially admitted it with their “responsible father” quip. Given the circumstances of the strike on the son (he was meeting his friends at a coffee shop) he either was the actual target of the strike or just in the wrong place at the wrong time. The quip disclaims the latter possibility, so we are left with the former.
anation61
“…..But, what if Awlaki’s son was riding with someone who was the target of the USM? Would he then be just so much “collateral damage”? Sad, maybe, but “Oh fucking well…he shoulda picked better friends.”……”
Yes and yes
And collateral damage is recognized in International law:
“…..Luis Moreno-Ocampo, Chief Prosecutor at the International Criminal Court, investigated allegations of war crimes during the 2003 invasion of Iraq……Under international humanitarian law and the Rome Statute, the death of civilians during an armed conflict, no matter how grave and regrettable, does not in itself constitute a war crime. International humanitarian law and the Rome Statute permit belligerents to carry out proportionate attacks against military objectives,[13] even when it is known that some civilian deaths or injuries will occur. A crime occurs if there is an intentional attack directed against civilians (principle of distinction)…….”
Thank you,
1) My question was related to the drone strike that killed his father. You should at least address that case first before you move to another case.
2) The US government has made it clear his son’s death was a mistake as he was at the wrong place at the wrong time. I personally believe his family should be compensated for a fatal mistake. That is the least the US government can do.
3) Now, can you get back to my point? Or would you?
despite your assertions to the contrary, i do not believe that the killing of Anwar al Awlaki, and especially his son, were justified nor accidental in the case of the latter….when asked about it, Jay Carney, Obama’s press secretary at the time dismissed the boy with “he shouldn’t have been born the son of al Awlaki”….they killed that boy deliberately.
if the US could send in a team of Navy SEALs to murder Osama bin Laden….(which was also illegal, and just plain wrong)…they could have sent a similar team in to arrest Anwar al Awlaki….just as they SHOULD have arrested Osama bin Laden, as he was posing a threat to NO ONE at the time….but instead, and knowing that due process might just set these “enemies of the State” free, due to lack of evidence, they opted for the MURDER option….it’s wrong, and the Obama administration should be charged with crimes against humanity, and in the US with breaking the provisions of the Constitution…
as far as i’m concerned state actors MUST follow due process if they expect to avoid serious criticisms for their unilateral, and illegal actions.
I am wondering whether you could provide us with some ideas on how the US government could have apprehended Anwar al Awlaki and brought him to court?
Did they not apprehend Osama bin Laden? How did you manage to sleep through the subsequent uproar? Or is it just easier to ignore that example since it doesn’t support your position? Seal Team 6 would be disappointed to hear you have such little faith in their demonstrated capabilities.
A shame they chose to extra-judicially execute him too though. Of course, they couldn’t take a chance on his history being trotted out in a court of law as it might have proven uncomfortable for those in our government who used to support him in a manner similar to how they supported Saddam Hussein….until they didn’t.
“…….Did they not apprehend Osama bin Laden? How did you manage to sleep through the subsequent uproar? Or is it just easier to ignore that example since it doesn’t support your position? Seal Team 6 would be disappointed to hear you have such little faith in their demonstrated capabilities…..”
The difference being that the US government had no idea for years on the whereabouts of Bin Laden – and Bin Laden, of course, had no idea that the US government finally determined his location which made the surprise visit all the more effective. None of that is applicable to Awlaki. The US government attempted to kill him once before in Yemen. Why should Seal Team 6 risk their lives to bring in Awlaki alive?
Billions of dollars are spent collecting and tracking all or CraigSummers’ emails, phone calls, porn preferences, library card uses, bathroom stops on way to Grandma’s house, purchases at Walmart and Kwik Stop … but Awlaki? … who they claimed was AQ Operational … why spend a dime or endanger a single guy involved in a gazzillion dollar military operation on “bringing him in alive” so that they could find out if Walmart was his favorite place to shop for air rifles and Taylor Swift CD’s? Brilliant deduction, CraigSummers! who needs whatever information Awlaki might have provided when you already have at your finger tips information about CraigSummers?
You say a lot, but you have not addressed the main point. What do leaders do when local authorities (Yemen or Somalia) make it clear that they are unable to apprehend a criminal who is recruiting terrorists, financing and planning terrorist acts on their soil?
Saddam went to court. Many South American military personnel who were on the CIA payroll went to court even in the US sometimes. I do not think your point about US officials being uncomfortable is valid Pedinska.
And charged him with what?
To my knowledge, all of his spoken activity fell within 1st Amendment protection, not I am aware the govt. claimed he played an operational role in AQ.
Thank you,
1) Association to a terrorist organization according to United Nation Security Council 1267. Mr Anwar al Awlaki was listed by the United Nations in 2010.
http://www.un.org/sc/committees/1267/aq_sanctions_list.shtml
2) Fundraising, recruiting and financing a terrorist group according to the US government.
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2010/07/16/treasury-designates-anwar-al-awlaki-key-leader-of-aqap/
3)”Incitement to kill foreigners and members of the (Yemeni) security services”, arrest warrant issued by Yemeni authorities in 2010
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2010/11/201011613102535305.html
The First Amendment of the US constitution does not allow citizens neither to recruit for a terrorist organization nor to finance terrorist activities. Again, what were the choices available to the US government to apprehend him? The Yemeni judicial authorities even after issuing their own arrest warrant made it clear they could not engage in a conflict with the powerful tribes that were protecting him.
Thank you,
1) Association to a terrorist organization according to United Nation Security Council 1267. Mr Anwar al Awlaki was listed by the United Nations in 2010.
http://www.un.org/sc/committees/1267/aq_sanctions_list.shtml
2) Fundraising, recruiting and financing a terrorist group according to the US government.
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2010/07/16/treasury-designates-anwar-al-awlaki-key-leader-of-aqap/
3)”Incitement to kill foreigners and members of the (Yemeni) security services”, arrest warrant issued by Yemeni authorities in 2010
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2010/11/201011613102535305.html
My detailed answer was not posted. Association with a terrorist organization through recruitment and financing according to the UN and the US government. Incitement to kill foreigners and members of the security services according to the Yemeni judicial authorities.
Where may one read the charging papers for these crimes?
Inside the U.S. Dirty War in Yemen with Jeremy Scahill, Nasser Al-Awlaki, Sheikh Fareed 15 min video from Democracy Now.
This man was never indicted, was never charged with a crime. I’m willing to concede that he may have been involved with plots against the United States. But if President Obama is sincere saying that he would have preferred to prosecute him, why didn’t someone call Saleh Bin Fareed who is one of the most influential tribal leaders in the south, a British educated man, and international business man who would have had a serious stake in this and say to him, ‘Here’s the evidence against Anwar Awlaki. We want him handed over’. It gives the lie to the claim by President Obama that they would have preferred to capture him or put him on trial. –Jeremy Scahill
@Kitt
There were many other tribal leaders who would disagree with that view according to many reporters who went to this area. Many powerful tribal leaders stated clearly they would not negotiate the hand over of Anwar Al Awlaki to the Yemeni government.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/yemen/8129179/Yemen-tribal-leaders-will-not-hand-over-al-Qaeda-operatives.html
http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2030277,00.html
This is what other powerful tribal leaders stated about that situation. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/yemen/8129179/Yemen-tribal-leaders-will-not-hand-over-al-Qaeda-operatives.html
Association with Al Qaida is considered a crime by the UN and the US Congress has authorized the President to use all necessary and appropriate force against Al Qaida members. Stop deviating from my point. How would you apprehend him when the local government states that it is unable to capture him?
@
Mona
The United Nations Security Council (which includes the US, China, Russia, France…) on 20 July, 2010 accused Anwar Nasser Abdulla Al -Aulaqi of the following crimes: “…associated with Al Qaida…participating in the financing, planning…perpetrating…recruiting for Al Qaida and Al Qaida in the Arabian Peninsula (AQAP)
http://www.un.org/sc/committees/1267/NSQI28310E.shtml
The Yemeni government accused Anwar Al Awki of the following crimes on November 2, 2010 at the Criminal Court of San’a headed by Judge Muhsim Alwan: “forming an armed group to carry out criminal acts targeting foreigners under auspices of Al-Qaeda”
http://wikileaks.org/gifiles/attach/97/97131_Press%20Statement%20New%20Terror%20Cases%20in%20Yemen.pdf
(Original indictment copy in Arabic “www.agoye.com”)
The US Congress in 2001 authorized the President of the United States to use all “necessary and appropriate force” against “organizations…or persons…who “aided” the terrorist attack on September 11, 2001 in order to prevent future act of terrorism by such persons.
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c107:S.J.RES.23.ENR:
Basically, the President of the USA is authorized to use all “necessary and appropriate force” against Al Qaida members.
I have answered many of your questions, which solely aim at presenting your distrust of the US government and probably the Yemeni government because it supports the drone strikes in Yemen. That is fine. However, my question was not whether we should trust the US government or the Yemeni government. So, let me rephrase it with the hope that you will not deviate from my point.
“Assuming the United Nations Security Council, which includes the US, UK, Russia etc, and the Yemeni government have strong evidence that an individual located in Yemen is planning and financing terrorist acts as he has done multiple times in the past. How would the United Nations, or the US or the UK would apprehend this individual when the Yemeni government makes it clear that it is unable to place him under custody for various reasons?”
First thing I read this morning on the internet was that infuriating, arrogant, condescending, hypocritical, ignorant, bullshit editorial.
As a Brazilian with relatives & friends who suffered under two US-backed dictatorships in Brazil & Chile — as a longtime anti-imperialist Latin American solidarity activist, I’m used to reading this sort of crap in the US media. However, it’s been awhile since I’ve seen anything quite like this in the NY Times–so open and blatant about its hypocrisy and stupidity.
I was sitting there *fuming* while reading it and immediately sent off e-mails & social media posts to friends & relatives in Brazil, Chile, Argentina and Nicaragua about it.
I was happy and grateful to see this piece from Glenn, published so quickly, in response to that revolting editorial. It calmed me down a bit – and I’m sending it off to the same friends and relatives.
Some countries have an unsophisticated screening process for choosing candidates, and end up with leaders who pander to popular demand. While this may sound nominally democratic, it is actually populism – an unstable system which will eventually fail under its own weight. Tyrants on the other hand, assure stability and can slowly introduce the trappings of democracy, without threatening the ruling elite. Such systems will eventually become indistinguishable from more mature democracies such as the U.S. The elite in all countries have the same concerns and interests i.e. generating more wealth for themselves and maintaining the status quo. So it is really just a divisive tactic to refer to these as ‘U.S. interests’.
“Some countries have an unsophisticated screening process for choosing candidates, and end up with leaders who pander to Wall St and to the owners of the country”
Pardon me for modifying your statement, but it is not only ludicrous and deceptive what you say, Il Duce himself would have blushed after reading your note.
“Such systems will eventually become indistinguishable from more mature democracies such as the U.S”…..this is pure misinformed bullshit. How do you figure a tyrannical regime like Pinochet’s or Franco’s or Duvalier’s eventually becomes indistinguishable from mature [democracies] sic. The owners and rulers of the US are the uber-large corporations, the military contractors and Wall St., these are the so called American interests. This is not the ‘elite’ Benito, it is the owners of the country what you are talking about. Even in your more fantastic wet dreams did you ever had one where the US had become a fascist state? Well, that’s what’s happened.
“…….The owners and rulers of the US are the uber-large corporations, the military contractors and Wall St……”
Don’t forget the Jews.
Bell and Howell called, Craig…you’re abusing their projector again and they want it back.
…don’t forget the “brownies”.
Excellent article great journalism keep it up!!!
Democracy is overrated, the USA was originally a federation of states and had some protection of the minority from the majority.
Democracy means equality of political power, nothing else. You may have all the elections in the world, or all the procedural safeguards in the world, but if at the end of the day some people hold more power than others over the nation’s collective decisions, then it fails to be democratic. This is the case in every country of the world, the question is just the degree of failure.
It’s all well and good to talk about the projection of minorities from majorities, but there exist no mechanism that can protect minorities all the times they deserve it and ONLY when they deserve it. Either they hold the power they need to defend their legitimate interests, or they do not. Rules for protection of minorities, noble as they may be, are all ultimately something we impose on ourselves. We’ve seen again and again in history that if people want to work around them, they will succeed.
“It is, of course, true that democratically elected leaders are capable of authoritarian measures.”
Uh, New Zealand.
Great Britain…
Canada too….Harper is definitely a tyrant, and strengthening the National Security Police State apparatus…
Democracy = American favor?