(updated below – Update II)
TORONTO – In Quebec on Monday, two Canadian soldiers were hit by a car driven by Martin Couture-Rouleau, a 25-year-old Canadian who, as The Globe and Mail reported, “converted to Islam recently and called himself Ahmad Rouleau.” One of the soldiers died, as did Couture-Rouleau when he was shot by police upon apprehension after allegedly brandishing a large knife. Police speculated that the incident was deliberate, alleging the driver waited for two hours before hitting the soldiers, one of whom was wearing a uniform. The incident took place in the parking lot of a shopping mall 30 miles southeast of Montreal, “a few kilometres from the Collège militaire royal de Saint-Jean, the military academy operated by the Department of National Defence.”
The right-wing Canadian government wasted no time in seizing on the incident to promote its fear-mongering agenda over terrorism, which includes pending legislation to vest its intelligence agency, CSIS, with more spying and secrecy powers in the name of fighting ISIS. A government spokesperson asserted “clear indications” that the driver “had become radicalized.”
In a “clearly prearranged exchange,” a conservative MP, during parliamentary question time, asked Prime Minister Stephen Harper (pictured above) whether this was considered a “terrorist attack”; in reply, the prime minister gravely opined that the incident was “obviously extremely troubling.” Canada’s Public Safety Minister Steven Blaney pronounced the incident “clearly linked to terrorist ideology,” while newspapers predictably followed suit, calling it a “suspected terrorist attack” and “homegrown terrorism.” CSIS spokesperson Tahera Mufti said “the event was the violent expression of an extremist ideology promoted by terrorist groups with global followings” and added: “That something like this would happen in a peaceable Canadian community like Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu shows the long reach of these ideologies.”
In sum, the national mood and discourse in Canada is virtually identical to what prevails in every Western country whenever an incident like this happens: shock and bewilderment that someone would want to bring violence to such a good and innocent country (“a peaceable Canadian community like Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu”), followed by claims that the incident shows how primitive and savage is the “terrorist ideology” of extremist Muslims, followed by rage and demand for still more actions of militarism and freedom-deprivation. There are two points worth making about this:
First, Canada has spent the last 13 years proclaiming itself a nation at war. It actively participated in the invasion and occupation of Afghanistan and was an enthusiastic partner in some of the most extremist War on Terror abuses perpetrated by the U.S. Earlier this month, the Prime Minister revealed, with the support of a large majority of Canadians, that “Canada is poised to go to war in Iraq, as [he] announced plans in Parliament [] to send CF-18 fighter jets for up to six months to battle Islamic extremists.” Just yesterday, Canadian Defence Minister Rob Nicholson flamboyantly appeared at the airfield in Alberta from which the fighter jets left for Iraq and stood tall as he issued the standard Churchillian war rhetoric about the noble fight against evil.
It is always stunning when a country that has brought violence and military force to numerous countries acts shocked and bewildered when someone brings a tiny fraction of that violence back to that country. Regardless of one’s views on the justifiability of Canada’s lengthy military actions, it’s not the slightest bit surprising or difficult to understand why people who identify with those on the other end of Canadian bombs and bullets would decide to attack the military responsible for that violence.
That’s the nature of war. A country doesn’t get to run around for years wallowing in war glory, invading, rendering and bombing others, without the risk of having violence brought back to it. Rather than being baffling or shocking, that reaction is completely natural and predictable. The only surprising thing about any of it is that it doesn’t happen more often.
The issue here is not justification (very few people would view attacks on soldiers in a shopping mall parking lot to be justified). The issue is causation. Every time one of these attacks occurs — from 9/11 on down — Western governments pretend that it was just some sort of unprovoked, utterly “senseless” act of violence caused by primitive, irrational, savage religious extremism inexplicably aimed at a country innocently minding its own business. They even invent fairy tales to feed to the population to explain why it happens: they hate us for our freedoms.
Those fairy tales are pure deceit. Except in the rarest of cases, the violence has clearly identifiable and easy-to-understand causes: namely, anger over the violence that the country’s government has spent years directing at others. The statements of those accused by the west of terrorism, and even the Pentagon’s own commissioned research, have made conclusively clear what motivates these acts: namely, anger over the violence, abuse and interference by Western countries in that part of the world, with the world’s Muslims overwhelmingly the targets and victims. The very policies of militarism and civil liberties erosions justified in the name of stopping terrorism are actually what fuels terrorism and ensures its endless continuation.
If you want to be a country that spends more than a decade proclaiming itself at war and bringing violence to others, then one should expect that violence will sometimes be directed at you as well. Far from being the by-product of primitive and inscrutable religions, that behavior is the natural reaction of human beings targeted with violence. Anyone who doubts that should review the 13-year orgy of violence the U.S. has unleashed on the world since the 9/11 attack, as well as the decades of violence and interference from the U.S. in that region prior to that.
Second, in what conceivable sense can this incident be called a “terrorist” attack? As I have written many times over the last several years, and as some of the best scholarship proves, “terrorism” is a word utterly devoid of objective or consistent meaning. It is little more than a totally malleable, propagandistic fear-mongering term used by Western governments (and non-Western ones) to justify whatever actions they undertake. As Professor Tomis Kapitan wrote in a brilliant essay in The New York Times on Monday: “Part of the success of this rhetoric traces to the fact that there is no consensus about the meaning of ‘terrorism.'”
But to the extent the term has any common understanding, it includes the deliberate (or wholly reckless) targeting of civilians with violence for political ends. But in this case in Canada, it wasn’t civilians who were targeted. If one believes the government’s accounts of the incident, the driver waited two hours until he saw a soldier in uniform. In other words, he seems to have deliberately avoided attacking civilians, and targeted a soldier instead – a member of a military that is currently fighting a war.
Again, the point isn’t justifiability. There is a compelling argument to make that undeployed soldiers engaged in normal civilian activities at home are not valid targets under the laws of war (although the U.S. and its closest allies use extremely broad and permissive standards for what constitutes legitimate military targets when it comes to their own violence). The point is that targeting soldiers who are part of a military fighting an active war is completely inconsistent with the common usage of the word “terrorism,” and yet it is reflexively applied by government officials and media outlets to this incident in Canada (and others like it in the UK and the US).
That’s because the most common functional definition of “terrorism” in Western discourse is quite clear. At this point, it means little more than: “violence directed at Westerners by Muslims” (when not used to mean “violence by Muslims,” it usually just means: violence the state dislikes). The term “terrorism” has become nothing more than a rhetorical weapon for legitimizing all violence by Western countries, and delegitimizing all violence against them, even when the violence called “terrorism” is clearly intended as retaliation for Western violence.
This is about far more than semantics. It is central to how the west propagandizes its citizenries; the manipulative use of the “terrorism” term lies at heart of that. As Professor Kapitan wrote yesterday in The New York Times:
Even when a definition is agreed upon, the rhetoric of “terror” is applied both selectively and inconsistently. In the mainstream American media, the “terrorist” label is usually reserved for those opposed to the policies of the U.S. and its allies. By contrast, some acts of violence that constitute terrorism under most definitions are not identified as such — for instance, the massacre of over 2000 Palestinian civilians in the Beirut refugee camps in 1982 or the killings of more than 3000 civilians in Nicaragua by “contra” rebels during the 1980s, or the genocide that took the lives of at least a half million Rwandans in 1994. At the opposite end of the spectrum, some actions that do not qualify as terrorism are labeled as such — that would include attacks by Hamas, Hezbollah or ISIS, for instance, against uniformed soldiers on duty.
Historically, the rhetoric of terror has been used by those in power not only to sway public opinion, but to direct attention away from their own acts of terror.
At this point, “terrorism” is the term that means nothing, but justifies everything. It is long past time that media outlets begin skeptically questioning its usage by political officials rather than mindlessly parroting it.
Photo: AP/The Canadian Press, Adrian Wyld
UPDATE: Multiple conservative commentators have claimed that this article and my subsequent discussion of it are about this morning’s shooting of a solider in Ottawa. Aside from the fact that what I wrote is expressly about a completely different incident – one that took place in Quebec on Monday – this article and my comments were published before this morning’s shooting spree was reported. So unless someone believes I possess powers of clairvoyance, the claim that I was commenting on the Ottawa shooting – about which virtually nothing is known, including the identity and motive of the shooter(s) – is obviously false.
Then there’s also the extremely predictable accusation that I was justifying the attack on the soldiers. I know from prior experience in discussing these questions that no matter how clear you make it that you are writing about causation and not justification, many will still distort what you write to claim you’ve justified the attack. That’s true even if one makes as clear as the English language permits that you’re not writing about justification: “The issue here is not justification (very few people would view attacks on soldiers in a shopping mall parking lot to be justified). The issue is causation.” If there’s a way to make that any clearer, please let me know.
One more time: the difference between “causation” and “justification” is so obvious that it should require no explanation. If one observes that someone who smokes four packs of cigarettes a day can expect to develop emphysema, that’s an observation about causation, not a celebration of the person’s illness. Only a willful desire to distort, or some deep confusion, can account for a failure to process this most basic point.
UPDATE II: In that brilliant essay I referenced above, published just three days ago in The New York Times, Professor Tomis Kapitan made this point:
Obviously, to point out the causes and objectives of particular terrorist actions is to imply nothing about their legitimacy — that is an independent matter….
That point is so simple and, as he said, “obvious” that I have a hard time understanding what could account for some commentators conflating the two other than a willful desire to mislead.
I disagree with many of your opinions and accusations against our country and it’s government. Like all journalists and left wing activists you are never very objective. I think the out pouring of sentiment at this shocking time in our country was genuine with no ulterior motives that you are suggesting. We need fewer of your kind trying to spew your venom.
“…“terrorism” is a word utterly devoid of objective or consistent meaning.”
As is the term “mass”, as in “weapons of mass destruction”. Apparently, the word defines a count of at least two.
Is a six-shot pistol a WMD?
And isn’t a “terrorist”, by definition, a part of some organization? A lone killer does not a “sleeper cell” make.
I’ll say this about the Canadians – at least they know WHO they’re pissed off at. American gunmen just shoot whoever is around them.
What would you call it if your son was one of the soldiers who was murdered by a Muslim, with a criminal record, who had plans to go to Syria? What if the murderer was sympathetic with IS, but was not a member?
What would you call such a murderer, cwradio?
Try answering the question rather than parroting Greenwald, cwradio, since you and other Greenwald minions seem to be so concerned about semantics.
Mr Greenwald,
I came across your article from last year regarding neo-athiests and subsequently have been reading some of your work and have been watching some of your videos… There is so much goodness in you and I wish to emulate this goodness.
You speak truth to your fellow citizens and neighbors and as a Muslim man I wish to do the same with other muslims along with reminding myself of it.
In Islam it is better to be killed wrongly than to kill someone else wrongly… We pray 5 times a day and try to stay away from many vices… which is quite an investment so to jeopardize ones faith and religion by doing something so doubtful if not outright wrong is crazy. This is primarily why out of over 1.5 billion Muslims only 20k from all over the world went to ISIS. That’s like <0.01 percent… but it still breaks my heart to see Muslims led astray.
I have made prayers for you and I wish for you peace.
Glenn Greenwald and the Pentagon commit sociology
http://creekside1.blogspot.com.br/2014/10/glenn-greenwald-and-pentagon-commit.html?spref=tw
Canada plays a role in all of those policies.
Thank you for the link. I read the report years ago, but could not find the original link. Basically what Mr Greenwald, you, and many others are saying is if the US do not support Saudi Arabia, Egypt, or even Pakistan (which has an elected government), then Muslims extremists would leave us alone. That is a very simplistic view that even the report you use to back up your position does not even certify. The report describes the perception of America among many Muslims. Because the US provides military and financial support to Israel, Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Pakistan (again an elected government), then Muslims do not believe in the truthfulness of American policies. That perception just allows terrorist groups to recruit more Muslims. That perception is not the cause of terrorism. There is not one terrorist group from Al Qaeda to ISIL passing through Boko Haram that intends to replace the “apostate” regimes with a democratic society. The evidence that we obtain daily through the media, prove that those terrorist groups’ primarily targets are other Muslims and other individuals with different religions or different beliefs. Take the perfect example of Nigeria. How much military or financial support the government of Nigeria has provided to Israel, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Egypt? NONE
Do I need to elaborate on the violence perpetrated by Boko Haram against Nigerian citizens? If Mr Greenwald’s argument is that strong, then countries that do not provide military/financial supports to these “apostate” regimes should be immune from Islamic terrorists. Yet, Nigerian girls are getting kidnapped in the name of Islam. American policies might help the recruitment of terrorists, but to suggest that they are the cause of Islamic terrorism is just dangerous naivety.
Wow. That’s the best example of a straw man argument I’ve seen in…well, forever.
Michael Zehaf-Bibeau threatened to act ‘in the name of Allah in response to Canadian foreign policy': source
http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/10/27/police-investigating-whether-michael-zehaf-bibeau-told-anyone-about-his-plans-before-ottawa-shooting/
The top RCMP guy in Canada was appointed by The Harper Government. The National Post, along with SUN TV, is the mouth organ of The Harper Government.
GLENN GREENWALD
I’m awaiting an article presenting your speech in Canada.
http://new.livestream.com/accounts/5872952/events/3514250
I like it that you mention all the victims including babies, children & teens. That’s what war is.
Would it be possible to put the last interview with Edward Snowden & your last speech as a permanet link somewhere at the head of The Intercept home page? I think it’s important to have access to the rationale you have.
http://www.newyorker.com/new-yorker-festival/live-stream-edward-snowden
Just a test which HTML one can use here:
bold text
cursive
it is a bit amazing, isn’t it, that when the chickens come home to roost, that the Canadians get so shocked and surprised by it all…(i’m a Canadian myself…and can’t say i was all that surprised)….
the one quibble though, is that both of these assailants were mentally ill drug addicted losers in ordinary life….and i believe that they basically were taking revenge for that, and simply utilising the Islamic radical flag as a cover for their real MO’s….Michael Zehaf Bibeau, the shooter was a crack addict who failed many times to quit his devastating habit…and hoped that Allah would save him…that didn’t work, so i believe the next option was “suicide by cop”, by killing that soldier….then in his deluded mind, he would be a Muslim “martyr”, and get to “Paradise”….
what a bloody idiot.
Funny that the Canadian authorities pulled the passports of both the assailants some weeks previous to their attacks.
And, only in the West is the word ‘terrorism’ used to describe attacks on military or government targets…but only if it’s a Muslim attack.
CODA:- rt.com/usa/199859-ron-paul-canada-blowback/ — Ron Paul elaborates & amplifies precisely what GG here opines (with acknowledgement).
I am 73 yrs old and since I was a kid I have known about the atrocities of Western “Christian” Countries and only about 20 yrs ago I started to hear, from these Western Countries about Muslim Terrorism. So am I to understand that suddenly Muslims had an Ah! revelation to become “Terrorists?
Well said Mr Greenwald. I could nor agree more. As soon as our government announced first the “advisors” and then the air support into Irag I silently predicted retaliation on our home soil. Cause and effect. You will no doubt take a lot of heat for saying the obvious.
The coverage in the last few days has bandied around the word terrorism too freely. Seems to me the murderers had histories of criminal activities and at least in one case drug addiction. Their conversion to Islam was initially helpful in their lives. The wrong path they took (“radicalization”) seems to have been a natural answer to whatever inner demons they suffered from. (The reporter who has been studying this issue was quite helpful).
Generalizations are dangerous and trite. Our focus, at least now, should be the sorrow we feel with the families of the murdered soldiers. And an acknowledgement that two other families were destroyed too. With your assistance we can continue the analysis of the situation in the not so distant future. No criticism of the timing of your commentary. We need your reasoned words.
I do not wish to trivialize your theory at all but it reminds me of my reaction to the totally shocked reaction of a slot player seated beside me at the local casino who, after a bonus round, says to me, incredulously, I did not win a cent! I would look at back at them incredulously and say, “What surprises me is the fact you are surprised you did not win anything!”
We are blessed as a land of peace at least on the homefront. I am surprised we have escaped the violence at home as long as we have.
If it were true “they hate us because we are free”(TM) then the authorities are doing the right thing by getting rid of our freedoms so they won’t hate us anymore. It’s more probable that there are powerful elites in our own nations who hate our freedoms and democratic accountability. One of Hannah Arendt’s most controversial insights was revealing how leaders often betray their own people to such.
Speaking of “just mouthing the kind of ethos into which he’s connected,” and even within context of James Risen’s legal troubles of not revealing a source, it was still unpleasant to hear Bill Maher carelessly call him a “white collar criminal” at the end of their interview Friday night.
But Maher’s carelessness no longer surprises…
Maher’s getting to be a real goof.
(quote) “They literally want to collect and store every electronic communication activity that takes place by and between human beings everywhere in the world, which is another way of saying they want to eliminate privacy in the digital age,” he said. (unquote)
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/10/23/glenn-greenwald-canada_n_6037434.html
Some example of dutiful-mainstream-loyalty journalism attacking Glenn Greenwald:
http://opencanada.org/features/when-argument-becomes-comedy-glenn-greenwald-blames-canada/
Found the article interesting . The fact that Canada is not at war with Islam but engaged in fights against Islamic Revolution in other countries we must prevent
That Canada becomes involved in the conflicts in our country. Any Canadian who wants to join the Islamic Revolution should be free to leave Canada ,but should
Loose Canadian citizenship when leaving Canada or being deported were they want to fight . Canadian Military is non political and non religious getting involved
In protecting Canada and other countries from becoming victims of non justified aggression .
Sufi, small tidbit on Emerson you may or may not find interesting. He used to run with Rita Katz, a government contractor that privately sources jihadi propaganda to American media (they most recently published one of the snuff videos that propelled America’s current bombing campaign in Syria/Iraq).
https://wikispooks.com/wiki/SITE_Intelligence_Group
“SITE” stands for *Search for International Terrorist Entities*, a riff on the noble SETI organization *Search for Extraterrestial Intelligence*
In other words, these people literally see Muslims as aliens. They make their living catapulting fear. But they mean well. Everybody does in their way, no? Or no?
Thanks, I appreciate the link.
Emerson, Geller, Spencer, and those like them, are not interested in seeing any goodness coming from the Muslims.
So, Emerson was very disappointed to see goodness at that Muslim gathering.
He showed no interest in what that friend of mine said to him over lunch.
Really, BejaminAP?
Why not step out from behind your alias and let us question you, and your claims? If you get the courage to provide a true name and a picture, I might actually believe you. But right now, you look like another Anonymous shill spreading misinformation.
Pro up, and try again.
Do you really work for the AP Benjamin, or are you just another wannabe posing as a researcher to push you political agenda?
Where’s YOUR picture, Herr Savage?
Can you use Google, Nete? And it’s not “Herr Savage”. My name is Jerry Savage. Do you have a problem with my name?
Can you use Google, Nete? I’m easy to find.
Islam IS political….a foreign policy of War Against Free people …. theres THE THREAT OF islam TO CANADIANS, CANADA
so muslims say Canada is enemy to islam, muslims
well get them the bloody hell out of Canada fasssssssssster
do them This One Last Favor from Canada
CAUSE CANADIANS aren’t giving one more iota OF TOLERANCE any bloody more to muslims who follow islam
they pissssed on it… and CANADIANS KNOW THIS …. no more privilege for muslims, islam in Canada
Comments, such as yours, usually appear on other websites.
By and large, the critics of Islam here are knowledgeable, thoughtful and courteous. I may disagree with them and pick on their fine points, but I do respect them.
So it’s a rare treat to see your kind here.
I’m curious: what is in your heart that compelled you to state what you did? I’m genuinely interested.
Thanks,
link635, I am trying to understand your point of view. If one terrorist is Muslim, that means all Muslims are terrorists? That is like saying if one person in Manitoba committed a murder, all Manitobans are murderers. If you want to deport terrorists, great, but it is very short sighted to paint an entire religion with a broad stereotyping brush.
I want to make a supportive comment to Sufi Muslim because he/she probably feels squeezed out between Greenwald’s supporters and critics of Islam like myself.
I believe that for the benefit of humanity, we have to work to reduce the political power of Islam – what we would call ‘the church’ in the Western world. There are a number of reasons why this is so but we don’t need to get into them here.
That being said, people will always believe in something. Religion will never completely disappear and it’s really not necessary that it does. It’s just that powerful institutions will invariably impose their will on others and their power needs to checked. People like myself believe that Islam is as a whole, today, is one of the most powerful and inherently aggressive of these things and deserves special attention. Those who understand what Sufi Islam is though would not consider it to be much of a threat.
Life is an integrated whole. So it’s rather difficult to compartmentalise it.
Religion has been used as a powerful tool to oppress people and do all kinds of bad things.
But non-religious paths have also been used to do all kinds of bad things.
We live in the post-religion age, and the demand of our time is that we behave and function according to high ethical values, that is, through the higher consciousness, in all aspects of life, regardless of our religious or non-religious paths and affiliations.
I’ve listed the attributes of the higher consciousness often, but here are some of them again: love, peace, selflessness, generosity, humility, forgiveness, justice, treating others like one would want to be treated, seeing no otherness, service to other, no desire for power, revenge, resources, control, etc.
And yes, even the politicians should groom the self so that it reflects the higher.
“I want to make a supportive comment to Sufi Muslim”
I do too! I hope you can persevere, Sufi; your voice is needed.
Can you name the supreme ruler who directs Islam?(other than Allah)Talk about the most disparate and less lethal(compared to the West,China,Russia,Israel)force in the world,really.
All this stuff is blowback,nothing more,and nothing less.Leave them alone,and they’ll leave US alone.
Because it seems clear good, loving, peaceful Muslims let groups like IS grow, Sufi.
What are Muslims– Sufis and other sects– doing to stop the evil done by ISIS, in the name of Islam?
Sadly, humanity will continue to have people who say what you say.
There’re always those non-Muslims who will never acknowledge the good things the Muslims do or the efforts they make in challenging the evil doers even though the Muslims are not only the victims of groups like ISIL, they have consistently and loudly denounced them.
Recently, I read in detail the definition of a troll.
Amazingly, one of the things a troll does is exactly what you did.
It’s a real treat to read your comments as they are not that common here.
If one wants to find out how the Muslims have rejected groups like ISIL, one can do a simple Google search.
One should also know how countries, like Saudi Arabia, have supported and sustained ISIL.
And, how they’ve spread their brand of Islam to infect the Muslim world.
Thankfully, efforts are underway to combat the Saudi brand of Islam. But some people do not take the time to learn these things.
They, like Emerson, Geller, Spencer, Maher, Harris and Fateh, are not interested in seeing any goodness emanating from the Muslims. They deliberately only focus on the negatives, like one would ignore the entire scene and use a 32,000 mm lens to look at some dirt, as if only that part represents the whole reality.
This way, these people tell us more about their own selves than anything else.
I’ve known several good Muslims, Sufi. I used to enjoy occasionally dancing and talking with folks at Zhikr :-)
But I also know– despite the fact I love and am still loved in some such circles– there is a lot of anti-Americanism growing around the world, especially among Muslims. As people attack the U.S over issues like surveillance while ignoring what current and potential adversaries like Russia and China are doing, we are going to give more push back.
I don’t trust Snowden, Greenwald or their minions nearly as much as you do! After all, admitted thieves and liars who have aided Russia, China and terrorist groups– and their ideologue “adversarial journalists”– should be scrutinized. I think you’ll be seeing more of tha,, despite Greenwald’s refusal to provide proof for most of his and Snowden’s claims.
We planted the seeds of Isus.I-S-US,get it?They are just Sunni right wingers created by Zionist and flunky US idiots.They chop off heads,we blow ’em to pieces,what’s the diff,other than our greater number of kills.
Jerry Savage, what are you and all Catholic or Christian Canadians doing to stop child abuse by priests. Answer me now! I blame you for all the child abuse of children they way you blame all Muslims. Do you realize how unintelligent your question was now?
Where were all the Christians in ‘Murka when Bush and Cheney ginned up the phony Iraq War? CHEERING THEM ON!
Search Jerry Falwell, if you don’t believe me.
The perps of these incidents are native born Canadians right?Are you at war with yourself?Just what the real enemy of justice(those who think some are #1 and some are#1a or less)wants.
Please speak for your self. As a Canadian I do not want to be associated with your ignorant redneck opinion.
You sure as hell don’t speak for THIS Canadian, bigot!
The Intercept has gone through several positive changes since it’s inception and so has the comments section.
Unfortunately, one of the things that has not changed are the numerous comments intent upon character assassination and promotion of MSM propaganda by trolls.
It is a pity when these degenerates deliberately twist the author’s words to push the MSM “fairy tales” to fabricate further discourse upon propaganda which complies with the agenda of those trolls.
Recently Mr. Maass published an article which shocked some people simply because he used a colorful, but effective word, to eloquently convey his driving point regarding the conveyance of truth; and the obligation of investigative journalists to adhere to the the dictates of their own conscientious evaluation in both mission and reporting. I think that Mr. Greenwald does a good job at this but he is just too polite sometimes. In light of the comments on this article, perhaps the best response to the legions of MSM propaganda artists trolling his articles is simply to say “fuck it.”
Within the alternative media outlets, Mr. Greenwald’s points and opinions are well accepted as simple facts. In relation to this particular article and subject matter, I have read several which directly correspond in terms of message and opinion. Here is one sample:
“Canadian Government Seizes on Ottawa Shooting to Promote Militarist, Anti-democratic Agenda”
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article40058.htm
It appears that TI has an alternative media mission and vision. I commend this effort and thank staff members for adhering to reporting truth with conscientious evaluation.
Greenwald’s supporters, who clearly have very little intelligence themselves, can’t handle any exchange of ideas with his detractors and must say no more than ‘fuck it’. Not only that, but it’s so frustrating because ‘within alternative media outlet’s…[these things] are well accepted as facts’.
This is absolutely and hilariously pathetic.
You are an odd choice as a judge of ‘intelligence.’
Brandon, just another angry self loathing individual.
Sam Harris describing a phone conversation with John Cook:
The Young Turks Interview
THIS is the ideology that is drummed into us from birth:
1. Do good works.
2. Trust in God.
3. Pray 5 times a day, when you are seven years old.
4. Fast in the month of Ramadan, when you are 12 years old; though many start keeping a few fasts in Ramadan at an earlier age.
5. When you grow up and earn money, give some to the poor.
6. When your grow up and can afford it, go to Mecca for the Hajj.
7. Respect your elders.
8. Speak to others in a polite and respectable manner. Do not use curse words.
9. Do not take illicit drugs or alcohol.
10. Be good to your neighbours, and respect the elders who live in the neighbourhood, and live in peace with the neighbours.
11. Learn how to read the Qur’an and, if you do not speak Arabic, read the translations of some of the verses in it.
12. Obey the laws, that is, be a law-abiding citizen.
13. Get good education.
14. If you work, work honestly. And if you have a business, run it with utmost honesty.
15. Be truthful. Never lie.
etc. etc.
So, I don’t know what ideology he’s talking about. Perhaps, there are Muslim children who are taught something different, but I’ve never met anyone who was not taught what I listed above.
Bill Maher and Sam Harris needs to adopt a Muslim baby and raise him or her as a traditional Muslim.
Perhaps, that’ll educate them and soften their hearts.
======================================
ON STEVEN EMERSON – A WELL-KNOWN ISLAM-BASHER:
Many years ago, a friend of mine had a stall at a gathering of Muslims.
Steven Emerson shows up and this friend of mine and him had a long discussion about Islam.
Emerson goes away and writes about Islam (and/or about that gathering), and what does he write?
He writes all the negative things he already had in his mind, completely omitting what he saw there and what this friend of mine said to him.
So, are people like Steven Emerson (Pam Geller, Robert Spencer, Bill Maher, Sam Harris, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, even Tarek Fateh) interested in anything positive emanating from the world, and religion, of Islam?
So far, the answer is NO!
Is that section you posted about and experience involving ‘Steven Emerson’ you writing in first person, or was that a quotation?
It actually happened to a friend of mine. He shared it with me a few years ago. So I’m not quoting anyone, except that I’m conveying what he told me.
He and I were discussing the rise in anti-Islam sentiments in the West, when I mentioned Steven Emerson. At that time, he shared that story with me.
The only question I have at this point is if he met Emerson before or after the evil acts of 911.
But Emerson has been bashing Islam before 911, so it really doesn’t matter.
Thanks for the clarification. So you know, I wasn’t questioning that your account of the conversation, I was just not clear on if you were writing in the first person. Thank you for all of your educational comments and for taking the time to set the record straight when commenters post ignorance.
I didn’t think you were questioning that.
I just spoke with that friend of mine, and he confirmed that his encounter with Emerson took place in 1986/87.
He said that Emerson was young and working for a company and writing a book to discredit Islam. He was broke and my friend took him to a Taco Bell for lunch.
He said that Emerson was being a jerk and did not want to hear anything positive about Islam or Muslims.
If you recall, Emerson was blaming Muslims immediately after the evil act that took place in Oklahoma.
What are Muslims– Sufis and other sects– doing to stop the evil done by the “Islamic State”, in the name of Islam?
WHat are muslims doing to stop isis? the muslims are being killed that’s what they are doing… the people most killed by these extremists are muslims.
We keep hearing about the yazidis and how they’ve been living there for hundreds if not thousands of years and ancient christian groups… they’ve been living in muslim countries for so long because muslims protected them for so long.
who saved the yazidis? the kurds who are muslim.
what do you mean what are muslims doing about it? The #1 exporter of extremism is the saudi govt… the #1 supporter of the saudi govt is the united states… so as an american what are you doing about it?
I am sympathetic in that I think Sam has a rather innocent perspective in general and does not always get the ins and outs of what ‘plays’ in public. I think Greenwald is actually similar in this respect but has spent a lot of time thinking about such matters, which is also super adorable (in that he also seems to have a sort of underlying innocence or naivety, he’s not like some naturally ‘slick’ type, which I would find a little suspicious.) So the ‘reconstructed conversation’ format he’s used recently when talking about a feminist and now Cook – I think that can be funny if it’s used totally as satire, but if you mean it as a genuine replay of a conversation that is not actually transcribed word for word, and you come off sounding great and the other person comes off sounding misinformed… I don’t know, I think we realize, as part of human nature, that this is how things always sound to us in our own heads, ergo when we hear someone else else use this as an argument without having the actual conversation in front of us we’re not going to know what to think, ergo in order to be convincing we’ll go a different route. It may well be that this was exactly the conversation (sorry, Cook, have no idea), but, again, I think using this format at all without a transcript is problematic in terms of persuading people. And sometimes Harris doesn’t seem to have a natural awareness of what will ‘play well’ outside of more academic circles.
On the whole, I think that accusations of racism or just discriminatory bashing (i.e., criticizing one religion more than is fair even if it has nothing to do with race) or hidden motives like Zionism – all things I’ve seen Harris accused of – are like accusing someone of being ‘passive aggressive’. It’s not something you’re ever going to prove, it’s an ethereal thing based on context, and even then it can be wrong and subject to different interpretations by different people. In Harris’s case, I have gone back and forth on whether he overdoes it in criticizing Islam and what exactly motivates this criticism, but at this point I’ve decided that his moral realism accounts for it and he’s always been up front about being a moral realist. You don’t have to invoke race or religion or Zionism or any of that if you simply start with the idea that “The West is superior, and therefore we are not talking about some kind of totally equal, tit for tat form of judgement when comparing the actions of liberal democracies to other groups”. I think it’s entirely possible that if you magically airlifted Israel out of the Middle East and put Sweden in its place, and replaced Palestine with some white, tribal Christians, for example, his thoughts would be pretty similar.
Obviously I don’t think that line of thinking will play particularly well to this crowd either, but I do think it’s more accurate.
Arguably, Islam has historically been the most criticized and demonized religion in the world.
Behaviour of some Muslims has certainly been one of the primary reasons, but there have been other reasons too.
In my personal experience, we Muslims criticize other Muslims a lot more than we criticize non-Muslims for the overall state of the Muslims.
We grieve one some idiots protest books and cartoons.
We grieve when a Muslim harms a non-Muslim, like what just happened in Canada, and when a Muslim harms another Muslim.
This fact is little known to many who think that we tend to blame the non-Muslims.
Healthy, respectful, courteous, fair and educated critique of Islam is welcome, and is good for us.
But, do realize that the world of Islam is a very diverse mosaic of religious and cultural interpretations and practices.
Moreover, we are doing a lot of positive work all over the world.
So, do focus on the positives as well, and not paint us all with the same brush.
It’s inaccurate and counter productive.
“So, do focus on the positives as well, and not paint us all with the same brush.
It’s inaccurate and counter productive”
I’m not sure what you mean. If it was the use of the word tribal, that was probably unfair and I apologize.
If it’s the fact that I find Harris’s work in general legitimate but object if he is specifically demonizing Islam, as has been claimed – we are going to disagree there. I do support his work in criticizing religion in general, and even in saying no unfounded dogma, in any religion, is an acceptable standard in 2014.
If you think I’m equating Harris’s views on foreign policy with his views on religion (i.e. Harris criticizes Muslims; Harris thinks the West is a superior standard, i.e. in my post I’m saying all Muslims hold non-Western beliefs) apologies, that was probably unclear. I didn’t mean to imply that. What I was trying to express – I think Harris has often been criticized because: 1. He criticizes religion but singles out Islam as the most problematic religion of our time 2. In his views on foreign policy, he has said that under certain circumstances things like torture, a nuclear first strike, and killing people just for a belief could be justified. (Much has been made over whether or not he is misrepresented there. I think to Harris’s mind, it’s as if he says “I would shoot an unarmed man, if he was strangling my daughter and I couldn’t physically stop him”, and his critics say “Harris endorses shooting unarmed civilians!”; and to his critics it sounds as if he says “We should kill children for disobeying their parents, but look, only if they’re really disobedient”. To him the context makes all the difference, to others it doesn’t, but at any rate he has talked about those things.) He has also said he won’t criticize Israel.
Those two things, combined, created a very different picture dependent upon whether or not you are a moral realist. If you’re a realist, they all pretty much follow from that. The thinking goes – some systems are better than others, we should find the best systems. Once found, violence, in extreme situations, may be justified when groups with ‘better systems’ must defend against groups with relatively not as good systems. Racism and such have actually been based on this same type of thinking, but they posited things like ‘the right race’ as the ultimate good. Harris says it’s well-being. I don’t necessarily agree that moving the ‘ism’ off of race and on to some other concept isn’t going to result in all the same problems, but I don’t think it’s fair to say he’s a racist based on that.
I’ve read your reply, but am unable to write a detailed and thoughtful response at this time due to personal reasons.
In the part of my previous comments you quoted, I was generally stating that a critic of Islam needs to point out the positive things as well, to balance the picture.
As an example, the imams of the mosques in Ottawa recently got together and collected over $43,000 from Muslims and donated it to a children’s hospital.
This is just one good thing that the Muslims in Ottawa did. They routinely do a lot of other good things.
It did not make the news.
For every bad thing a Muslim does, there are perhaps 10,000+ good things they do. Why aren’t they emphasized?
Muslims overwhelmingly condemned Boko Haram.
Why wasn’t that declaration against Boko Haram AND all the good things the Muslims do all over the world was tweeted by Bill Maher as “THIS is Islam!”, and Boko Haram considered an EXCEPTION and UN-ISLAM?
I’ve shared a true story about Steven Emerson in other posts here.
From that story and from what I have seen from Harrison and Maher, Muslims generally feel that these people are not interested in acknowledging, or even seeing, anything positive emanating from the world of Islam.
Am I wrong?
Well, I recently read the KKK manual online out of curiosity regarding human ‘groupism’ impulses. Ok, skimmed, but I got the gist. What I found absolutely chilling was the use of all this same language. I don’t know why but I think I genuinely expected it to read: Page 1: BWHAHAHAHAHAHA! Page 2: HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Page 3: HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Etc. No, lots of talk of charity work and noble and honorable gentlemanly behavior and all that, lots of stated devotion to the greater good. It really freaked me out.
I am not, obviously, comparing religion to the KKK, I’m just saying saying that no, I don’t think criticism of religion needs to be a discussion of how nice or not nice every individual believer is and what sorts of things they do. I mean, I guess if you want to make an argument that it doesn’t even matter if religion is true or false, it’s so functional that we should leave it unquestioned, then ok. But that aside, I agree with the idea that bad ideas should almost (I’m sure there are exceptions) always be on the table for criticism. I just don’t think dogmatic religious claims are true. There may be some philosophical claims buried in theology with some merit, and if that’s the case, fine, those can be debated like any philosophical claim. But to the rest – Glenn and Sam have that thread in common, they talk about things that people say you should not be talking about it is not acceptable to talk about, and I think at this point in time that’s a healthy thing for society.
“scientific racism” applies to Harris imo. We don’t call it that anymore, but it survives, transmuted, through many conceits of evolutionary psychology. Not a conscious racism of course, but institutional/affinitative. That is to say, a worldview doesn’t just happen to dovetail with the conceits of right wing supremacy, while “The West” just happens to be violently dominating the targets of its eliminationist rhetoric, decade after decade.
http://www.tinyrevolution.com/mt/archives/003564.html
Ben – I think it’s like the defense / prosecution in court. There are different ways you could plausibly connect the dots. Where I have criticized Harris before is not in actually being what the ‘prosecution’ accuses him of, but in having difficulty stepping outside the entire situation and assessing how that narrative could potentially look to someone else, unfamiliar with him or not looking at things from his perspective. Again, since there are no empirical facts to establish here and this involves ethereal concepts like ‘intent’ and ‘motivation’, I’m not sure that a definitive answer is possible on such matters.
Oh yeah,old devil eyes,the picture of an innocent rube.Sheesh…..
A hate filled atheist cynic on a witch hunt for Islam,because it has the temerity of having a heck of a lot of believers,willing to stand up for it.
And ask him where was all this fundamental reactionary Islam prior to 1948?No where to be found,or not of any interest to US,but thanks to Isroil,our greed and bias brings us to our present idiotic and stupid reality.
Very good article I agree 100%. A country is at war so it’s not surprising to see violence and retaliation come back home
The KKK,America’s prelude to Isus in Iraq,the burning embers of enmity of the defeated,who eventually took back their power electorally,as eventually Iraq will have to deal with the Sunnis in the same way.
Regarding my first post about letting the would be jihadists go and fight in Syria, I found an article making a similar argument:
Don’t you worry, Benito. I’m confident Obama is going to drain some of that western ‘secular reactionary male rage’ and send it over to the Levant (i.e. ISIL) somewhere around Syria real soon. *probably only waiting for the Republican takeover in Nov.
ps. Istanbul is lovely this time of year.
I didn’t read all of you babbling….I did see some of your points….all very obvious . The big picture is we are trying to make a better World for everyone. Canada isn’t perfect but we are trying to make life better all around the globe. It has to start sometime and somewhere. This is only the beginning of trying to make it right in our world. There will be Cons but the Pro of the matter….somewhere down the line… The world will be a better place for all people alike. Like I said….this is just the beginning. There will be people being negative about it but the big picture….a better world and to get that….of course we are going to have to fight to get it. Of course people are going to jump down my throat regarding what I have just stated but if you look at it in a proper frame of mind….Someday ….all around the world, all people alike will be able to live their lives without fear of someone coming into their lives….shooting them in the face because all they wanted to do was to get an education.
This all started when Bush jr. invaded Iraq…..the reasons were a lie but since then…. People around the globe are not taking a stand against their governments demanding democracy ….democracy has a foot hold now….lives were lost to get it there….we cant stop now …. letting those lost lives be for nothing. They went their to fight for freedom for others as well as keeping our freedoms alive and safe….we have to continue their fight….as I said….this is just the beginning….it had to start sometime and somewhere…..its here now and I don’t seriously don’t think its going anywhere soon…..yes it will be pushed backwards but eventually it will continue to move forward ( it ) ie…. democracy
Has Greenwald ever even been to Canada, I wonder? Shock and bewilderment? Hardly! This sort of thing logically follows from Islamic ideology, of course, and I for one can at least appreciate that, in this instance, it was a military target and not merely innocent civilians that were attacked.
No, it does NOT follow Islamic ideology!
In any case, Islam is not monolithic:
http://www.thenation.com/article/185105/cowardice-bill-mahers-anti-muslim-bigotry
These evildoers are in clear violation of the islams, as interpreted and practiced by the overwhelming majority of Muslims, but, most importantly, they are in clear violation of Islam’s primary source, The Qur’an, which sets the framework for what is Islamic and what is not.
Also, read the 600+ page fatwa against terrorism by Dr. Tahir ul Qadri.
I don’t like his political shenanigans, but he has provided more than sufficient evidence from the Qur’an and the Prophetic Traditions that the violent acts committed by these Muslims have nothing to do with Islam.
“Has Greenwald ever even been to Canada, I wonder?”
——
You are correct.
Greenwald should not comment on Canada unless, and until, he has visited it.
It also doesn’t matter that Greenwald has bee to Canada numerous times…and is currently in Canada.
he’s in ottawa right now. and regardless, he’s more correct about canada’s foreign policy that half the folks working at DFAIT.
I know. I was being sarcastic. ;-)
This is one more of the endless examples of a commenter who is so desperate to be cute, funny and lamely critical, but is so ignorant about what they are addressing because they have failed to do a speck of research before posting. Yes, Greenwald has been to Canada. In fact, aside from having previously been in Canada, he was in Canada for the past several days. In fact has been to Canada as recently as: … Today
of course he’s been to Canada…he’s very much aware of the Harpocrite government’s attempts to turn Canada into a National Security Police Surveillance State, and unfortunately these events are only going to give them more ammunition…
i say NO to giving up even more of our liberties in exchange for the doubtful benefits of increased security….Ben Franklin’s saying on this comes to mind….
Bourque from new brunswick killed more people in uniform. he is white. he is not muslim. your silly scared of muslims point has been squashed by me.
Brilliant article. This world is full of illusions. Manipulation and ulterior motives can always be found where power structures exist. GG brings clarity to a topic where smoke and mirrors reign supreme. There are motives present that are above the citizens of the state but silent, obedient consent from citizens is needed to maintain the illusion of democracy. Keep people searching for objective meaning in a world that is completely subjective. This is the ultimate form of shadowboxing. The differentiated array of comments above (mine included) are proof of a people divided. Thats the point. The subjects discussed here are an afterthought. Tomorrow you must wake up, go to work, feed your family. What chance do you or any of us have? There is a large amount of self-deceit going on here and what we see happening in the world is but a symptom of a larger condition when it comes to beliefs and the very unfirm foundation they rest upon. No objective meaning here can be found because nobody here can agree on a single objective, a desired trajectory. Blinders on a beast of burden. What I am talking about may be above most peoples paygrade but it is the reduction of mankinds perceptual faculties to a narrow field of vision. There is a mechanism of delusion at work here and we will never know what the government and its various shadow branches are doing. We ask for transparency but i think what that means is comfort and piece of mind and thats whats being disrupted here. None of these comments make it past blog posts or dinner time rhetoric and thats shadow play.Thats the point. GG hits the tip of the iceberg and brings sharp lucid thoughts to the table. The state is full of lies and deceit, double standards and ideas that act like quicksand to the mind. But we love to be governed as long as we dont prefer death to continued bondage. These issues being discussed arent solved by talking about them but by transcending them and one only does that by getting out from underneath the umbrella of ideologies that we so lovingly adore. To do that the perceiver must change and no matter how much we say otherwise, thats the last thing we want to do. Great post. Thank you.
Baid (or Blaird, as I like to call him) says that the Ottawa murderer was “radicalized”…whatever that means. This is the word du jour to terrify the public and increase support for draconian laws.
Well this poor soul may have been radicalized, but it was not by Islamic extremists, most likely he was assisted in his lunacy by the attention he received from the Federal police, who had recently interviewed him and cancelled his passport, thereby giving his actions the attention and legitimacy he sought.
A troubled person, with anti-social and psychotic behaviour, this fellow was an actor looking for a play. Once he was given the part by the authorities, he played it out on the stage they set as a global Jihadist. To make him into a cause celebre as a terrorist intent on bring down our country is laughable. He is a sad person, who took to violence to justify his own existence, but he was assisted in that role by the authorities chasing their own fantasies. If he had been treated as a nutter instead of a “radicalized Jihadist, none of this would have happened. To me there is a potentially real connection between the “terrorist” intervention of the police and the resulting tragedy.
I could not agree more with this entire body of writing and I THANK YOU for writing this
The absolute truth. No Terror here, just a manchurian nut gifting Harper the pretext for the conflation of the surveillance police state, and making it more difficult to stand up to the new world order’s protocols for universal war abroad and fascist authoritarianism at home. I hope the Canadians are smarter than Americans.
Look we’ve all seen the videos of weddings and funerals being blown up. This is not war, this is killing. So the idea that a soldier being killed crossing the street is somehow different from an “enemy combatant” getting killed at a wedding is absurd. I think this is the point Greenwald tries but fails to lock into. Canada is the one who put the war label. Canada made the choice to take the war to weddings and funerals. But now Canada wants to say that the war coming to their streets is somehow out of bounds. That its not just the same war they declared and defined. Mostly because the don’t want Canadians understanding that this is what their government dragged them into. A war that is a war. A war where Iraqis letting bombed at a wedding might be met with Canadians getting bombed at their weddings. Or crossing the street. And like Greenwald I think its a testament to the restraint of the ‘ extremists’ that there waven’t been more such occurrences. Folks this is what war is. Enter at you own peril. Crying foul (or terror) doesn’t pass muster. The moronic idea of Canada thinking it can have a ” do what I say not what I do” war is what Greenwald is lampooning here. And the many fools in Canada, the US, UK, etc duped by this foolish thinking.
A soldier fighting an enemy soldier is what war is. It is exactly what happened here. If Canadians find it uncomfortable or distasteful, then why just beat the drums of war louder. Are they really this thick? Must be all that American TV.
The conservative mindset is not capable of understanding causality. This is why they can’t grasp natural selection, climate science, psychological rehabilitation of criminals, etc. etc. They are only capable of perceiving things in terms of good intentions and evil intentions, which kind of explains the paranoia.
As a result, Harper has done the equivalent of walking Canada into a biker bar and urinating on the bikers. Any sensible person would be able to predict what is coming next. And being able to make this prediction is different from saying that extreme biker violence is justified in the face of provocation. ISIL is a violent lunatic doomsday cult, that draws in crazy people who think the battle will help bring a sort of End of Days and messianic era. Think David Koresh, or Aum Shinrikyo or Solar Temple.
Bombing ISIL will have the same effect as the aggressive police operation at Waco Texas: more and new kinds of terrorism (eg. OKC bombing was allegedly revenge for Waco). This is completely predictable because we have seen it before.
So: what to do? There is one proven method of stopping homegrown terrorists from emerging: recognize that people who decide they want to join a holy battle for the end of days have serious psychological and emotional problems and need intervention by trained cultbreaking psych specialists. There are a number of very talented counsellors who specialise in deprogramming cult members and bringing them back to their families. We need to take lessons from the successes in cultbreaking, rather than ramp up obsessive surveillance making unstable people even more paranoid and psychotic.
This is -sort of- what Denmark has decided to do, and it looks like it’s working:
https://news.vice.com/article/danish-police-are-trying-to-rehabilitate-jihadists-returning-from-syria
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2014/09/denmark-introduces-rehab-syrian-fighters-201496125229948625.html
From the 2nd article:
“A lot of guys who come home have experienced a loss of innocence and some sort of loss of moral belief. They thought they were going down there for a good cause. And what they found was thugs who are decapitating women and children and raping and killing people, and everything smells and you’ve got diarrhoea from drinking the water and it’s not the great cosmic battle for al-Sham that you’d imagined.”
I’m pretty sure any conservative who read the Climate gate emails understands climate science fine. I’m pretty sure any conservative who understands significant figures, statistical significance, and the academic grant process understands climate science fine. And I’m sure that the many conservatives that consider themselves environmentalists abhor climate science and its vile alarmism that diminishes attention and effort from the real environmental issues facing this planet.
And I’m pretty sure they’re clear on the fact that levying new taxes won’ do jack squat to fix them. And as surprised as I am that any sane, competent person would believe they could. Its almost as laughable as the idea of putting anyone who thinks bombing carpet bombing brown people is bad into cult deprogramming. What moron declares a war then gets mad when the other side fights it? That is the person in need of psychological help.
And BTW are you trying to be the last dupe left believing that the so-called conservatives and liberals aren’t on the same team? Did you happen to notice how Constitutional lawyer turned Peace Prize winner Obama expanded warmonger Bush’s wars, attacks on liberty, and domestic surveillance? So where are these huge ideological distinctions you assert are real and obvious?
And no conservative denies natural selection, they simply assert the hand of higher intelligence at the point of origin of LIFE, not Species. But sadly your pet theory doesn’t have the goods to win that debate, so you argue against your own straw man instead. Was this supposed to be profound? Its laughable
@Dutch. I was hoping to bait the conservative trolls on this forum with that bit, to prove that taking a piss indeed has predictable results. Sorry you got caught in the net. I liked your comment at 12:57am, but I especially like your idea of sending Harper and his ilk for cult intervention counselling too.
Anyway, it’s important to note that people flying to Syria to fight for ISIL are not doing it to fight the West per se, but to be part of a “cosmic battle” to create a holy caliphate which is a key in fulfilling Islam’s existential mission, particularly after decades of being split up and kept down by foreign powers. It is not unlike the Cult of America which is so prevalent today, though perhaps more like the cult of Nazism after years of sanctions post-WW1.
Now, people living here in Canada may rightly be outraged by our air attacks there that write off collateral damage like it’s nothing, but I somehow doubt that alone would motivate anyone to fly there to join ISIL ground forces. People who want to go there to fight probably want, or need, to be members of their god’s army, and take part in a holy mission that they perceive as lifting Islam up from under the foot of the existing political order. But these people live in a fantasy world, not because their outrage over carper bombing is wrongheaded — this is a natural human response of a sensitive person — but because that response is recontextualised into a fantasy-laden worldview that is not going to lead to any kind of good outcome for anybody.
Thus, we must begin to treat homegrown radicalization as a social and mental health issue if we are to have any success at stopping it.
“…create a holy caliphate which is a key in fulfilling Islam’s existential mission…”
——
Whose Islam?
My Sufi teacher was advised by one of his teachers to migrate to a non-Middle Eastern country where there’s no chance of Muslims ever coming to power.
I think your image of Isus is just what the liars want it to be,another exercise in demonization.There is no way that these people could be that brutal and get the support they obviously do,or they wouldn’t exist.We created this Sunni blowback after we realized we’d screwed the pooch again by upsetting the applecart of Iraq,and that’s the basis of their support,Sunni restoration of power,but now its right wing religious based,instead of the right wing secularism of Saddam.All stupidity from US.
I didn’t get upset over Vietnamese Guerrilla warfare tactics, why should I get upset over Arab terrorist tactics of warfare?
Did Vietnamese Guerrillas try to make a state that says all gay people– or anyone who refuses to live a certain lifestyle– should be crucified, murdered and/or raped? Like the Nazis did to Jews, and other groups? No, they did not.
You fail to see the distinction between Vietnamese Guerrillas and IS. That’s dumb. Pro up, and try again.
Why should I give a crap about the motive? The crime is bad enough no matter what the motive is. The motive is just details.
LOL, Michael, you are dumb. You failed to understand such a basic distinction.
Go to visit the Islamic State, man. And don’t call us if they kidnap you, rape your friends, or torture you. They’re just innocent, friendly Muslims, right?
That’s happening on the other side of the planet 12,000 miles away. I don’t give a crap about that. Just try to take cell phones and car keys from American women. You’ll deserve what you get.
What mainstream media TV news reporters need to learn and understand is what a tactic of warfare is and stop obsessing over one specific tactic of warfare.
^A typically vile post by a Greenwald supporter. I wonder if he even agrees with this nonsense.
They’re all just tactics of warfare, everyone’s equally bad! I’d think that the victims of ISIS would have a problem with this.
No, what media really need to focus on is how many innocent people are targeted and murdered in war. If IS fighters, or their sympathizers, want to go to their “heaven” I have no problem with that. And most other reasonable people don’t either.
Apparently, some of us struggle with conflicting emotions regarding “blowback” (1) and the military rules of engagement -beyond the whiter than snow surroundings of Collège militaire royal de Saint-Jean. Yes, we are troubled by A PERSISTENT EMOTIONAL ISSUE (2):
<>
CIA’s disregard for the rule of law has proved a sloppy and persistent issue indeed; however, even more sinister is the notion of sugarcoating as “emotional” the type of “war-time” [anytime] issue that would get you killed by Presidential decree. And since the Canadian military unexpectedly ends up in the same war theaters where the U.S.A. flexes its muscles [by sheer chance near natural resources such as oil and gas], one could infer similar symptoms: official aversion to behavior mechanics, and compulsive patronizing to the discontent. In a nutshell, when these exceptional creatures known as “Western governments” choose to invade, bomb, destroy and occupy any country under any circumstance: shut up or hate up.
We’ve come a long way since “the extreme hatred of Western governments” by John Quincy Adams (3) [emphasis mine]:
<>
I say, stay out of the military or face fabricated enemies.
______________________________________________
(1) Christopher Simpson: “Blowback: America’s Recruitment of Nazis and Its Effects on the Cold War” (Weidenfeld & Nicolson, March 1988)
(2) Kevin C. Ruffner: “A Persistent Emotional Issue. CIA’s Support to the Nazi War Criminal Investigations” (De te fabula narratur: CIA)
https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/kent-csi/vol40no5/pdf/v40i5a12p.pdf
(3) John Quincy Adams: Independence Day Address, as Secretary of State, to the U.S. House of Representatives (4th of July 1821)
It’s no fun when you’re views are willfully distorted – then attacked, is it Glenn? In light of your new found discovery of this fact – you may want to reconsider your discourse when dealing w/ Dr. Harris.
Also, I think you’re making claims you would be hard pressed to back up when you state that “Canada” was shocked that a terrorist attacked one of it’s soldiers. While I personally would never presume to speak for all of Canada, I was neither shocked nor did I consider it an act of terrorism once the facts began to surface.
I don’t believe I’m alone in that opinion.
Otherwise you make many valid points that even the dimmest amongst us should be able to grasp.
The problem though is that where Greenwald makes sense (misuse of ‘terrorism’, the hypocrisy of nations, etc.) he’s not particularly original. I myself get deeply frustrated with the misuse of the word ‘terrorism’. In fact one reason I find it so frustrating is that it just encourages this kind of mindless moral relativist thinking that Greenwald loves.
I like your mention of Dr. Harris. Greenwald’s treatment of him really is unforgivable, but you could chalk it up to their different roles where Sam Harris is an actual scientist and Greenwald something of an ‘activist; no one’s really expecting Greenwald to act with honesty and rigor.
Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper needs Greenwald’s help getting out of the closet, apparently.
As usual, a breath of clarity from Glenn.
One important factor that went missing, however, is how Glenn is describing this issue of causation. We have literally no idea what motivated this guy, and it looks like he was a drug addict who needed a fix and had a history of violent troubles. The only way he can be linked to Muslims, the Middle East, Islamic terrorism, etc is the fact that he happened to have converted to Islam some years earlier. As in the Boston Marathon case, there is virtually no evidence that his identification as a Muslim had any bearing on this attack.
However, in responding to the nationalistic fervor about “terrorism,” it seems that Glenn’s article takes the right-wing nuts at their word — that this was somehow tied to “terrorism”. The issue that Glenn seems to be debating is only what causes terrorism — i.e. that it is caused as a reaction to foreign policy rather than a mindless uncontrollable religious zeal. But the issue of whether or not this should even be classified as a terrorism/reaction-to-foreign-policy incident goes out the door. What if this guy just happened to be nuts? In need of a fix? Mentally ill? Why is everyone jumping the gun to see it as part of some much larger battle, whether it’s the battle between “the West” and “radical Islam,” or the battle between “Western imperialism” and “asymmetrical reaction” or whatever you want to call the sides? Who says it has anything to do with foreign policy or terrorism or Islam at all?
What does it take for a Muslim to just count as a Muslim, albeit one who is lost, confused, addicted to drugs, and despondent?
The Ottawa shooter really does seem to be a mixed bag. We know that he was an ex crack addict who stayed at a homeless shelter for a couple of weeks before the attack (I understand he was trying to get a passport to travel to Syria). He was also a deeply devout Muslim though too. Either way, this is definitely not one of the stronger examples of radical Islamist violence (a very real phenomenon). Greendwald’s done the premature blaming of Muslims for acts of terrorism before too, he assumed the same for the Oslo attacks [ http://www.salon.com/2011/07/22/oslo/ ]. Of course, he has the same excuse as always that causation is not justification and in this case that he’s just musing on possible causes and not actually assigning blame, but I’m not the only one that found this article to be reprehensible. It shows too how little the facts actually matter to his worldview.
Greenwald doesn’t just take the ‘right-wing nuts at their word’, he completely agrees with their perception of the Muslim world. The difference is that he sympathizes with the jihadist side.
I find Greenwald’s assessment of the Canadian reaction to be a work of semi-ignorant orientalism. If what the headline states is really what he has derived from the Canadian reaction to these events he’s either ignorantly or deliberately not paying very close attention. The very fact of it is undermining to the respectable lengths taken by most media coverage to restrain the impulse to hysteria and irrationality. Harper government is what it is and many if not most of us are acutely aware of its shortcomings, but don’t try and project your nation’s social malaise onto us thank you very much.
One of the best lines from the article:
“The only surprising thing about any of it is that it doesn’t happen more often.”
Greenwald finds it puzzling that acts of violence like this don’t happen more often. Maybe it’s because most of the world is of far more decent character than him.
Or perhaps he means it is pleasantly surprising Muslims are not en masse as incendiary as, for example, the American establishment. Consider that.
Not only does Greenwald’s surprise completely contradict his main thesis – if the cause is so obvious in his mind, why then is this reaction so rare? – he betrays the fact that his views are so much more horribly vengeful than most other people as well.
The type of violence that ‘the West’ most often associates with Muslim extremists – clumsily labeled as terrorism – is that of high casualty attacks on civilian/noncombatant populations (these recent cases aren’t particularly good examples, but the modus operandi clearly has not changed). The express purpose this violence is to literally kill as many innocent people as possible – e.g. indiscriminate shooting attacks like Kenya Westgate Mall and Mumbai attacks or suicide bombings of jam packed public transportation. It’s rational political violence that’s so calculatingly murderous that the only thing I can think to compare it to is mass shootings by the mentally unfit.
The world is full of grievances and even accounting for how different peoples and societies have different tools of political change, you have no answer for why Muslim fundamentalism is so disproportionately and uniquely out of control. The world over time and as a whole has been steadily growing less and less violent. On the other hand, the already low standards that jihadists adhere to have regressed so drastically lately that it must get harder and harder to paint this phenomenon as some sort of righteous resistance movement. Does Greenwald just expect people to act as ISIS does in similar circumstances? At what point during the beheading of journalists and aid workers, open practice of genocide, and mass enslavement of women did Greenwald stop to think: maybe Muslim fundamentalists have some serious problems to work out.
I just think it’s interesting how ISIS – the most barbaric Muslim fundamentalist organization yet – rose to prominence in the Syrian Civil War, where the most significant role played by the West was in supporting the very same insurgency of which they were a part.
You’ve completely and utterly missed Greenwald’s point in four paragraphs. Maybe sometime between meddling in Middle East affairs for 50 years and killing 100,000 innocent people in Iraq and untold numbers of others around the world in the name of security, you could stop to think: Maybe America has some serious problems to work out.
“killing 100,000 innocent people in Iraq”
This is a serious crime that you are accusing the US military. Any evidence? Most US military units had embedded American or foreign journalists with them in Iraq. So, it should not be that hard to back your accusation with evidence.
Iraq Body Count attributes ~15,000 civilian deaths directly due to coalition forces, with over 150,000 total. There is also an argument to be made that the invasion is responsible for the sectarian conflicts, as those had not occurred under Saddam, nor had the country ever had a suicide attack prior to the US led intervention.
Far more civilians have been killed due to the US intervention than were killed by Saddam, which supposedly justified the intervention.
This is also if you choose to ignore the more than 500,000 civilian deaths from the destruction of Iraq’s infrastructure in the first Iraq invasion, and the ensuing sanctions. You can find video on youtube of former secretary of state Madeline Albright stating that this was “worth it”.
The US and it’s allies seem to have adopted the same theory that Stalin enjoyed. The death of one man is a tragedy, the death of millions is a statistic.
This “may” have gotten a few people PO’ed : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4PgpbQfxgo
This “may” have gotten a few folks PO’ed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4PgpbQfxgo
steb: You made the mistake of getting drawn into their misdirection. Rather than actually address the conduct of ISIS – which would be devastating to their point of view – they’re much more at home piling on the most unpopular Western war in history. I fall for it sometimes too.
Scoffer: Do you think Iraqis begged America to remove Saddam Hussein? They did!
Because he was a tyrant who killed tens of thousands of Iraqis.
Don’t forget the history– the facts– as you accuse America and our allies of being the evil empire…
Hussein was a monster, as were his sons, but that’s not the thrust of the article. I will say this though: I’ll wager that had the Iraqi people been able to peer into the future to see their country after America tried to “save” it, they would have told the U.S. to fuck off. And–just as a refresher–America started the war under the false pretense of finding wmd’s, which, of course, they didn’t find.
That’s actually a low-ball figure.
And when you consider the targeted destruction of Iraq’s infrastructure in Operation Desert Storm and the sanctions that followed – denounced as “war crimes” and “genocide” by the two successive American and British administrators of the program who both resigned in protest – which killed some 500,000 Iraqi civilians even before the US set about destroying the country in earnest, the number of Iraqis slaughtered is an order of magnitude greater.
None of that takes away from your point, of course; these numbers bolster it.
Thanks for elaborating on the horrific numbers of casualties. The figures should shock anyone with a conscience. It has to be difficult to tally such widespread destruction and loss of life. But America’s nut cases proclaim proudly that it was all worth it.
All too true:
Lesley Stahl on U.S. sanctions against Iraq: “We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, that’s more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?”
Secretary of State Madeleine Albright: “I think this is a very hard choice, but the price–we think the price is worth it.”
– CBS 60 Minutes (5/12/96)
The figures aren’t even disputed.
Whether you supported the war against Saddam in 1991 because he invaded a sovereign state is another debate. Whether you supported the Iraq invasion in 2003, which was based on a lie is also another debate. The debate here is whether the US military is responsible for the deaths of 100,000 innocent civilians. Even if you completely disregard the circumstances in which civilians were killed by US forces, which means you present the distorted idea that the US military went on a killing spree without any concerns for civilians, the number of civilians casualties due to US forces is way fewer than 100,000. That is a fact that Mr Greenwald and his followers consistently ignore because they are simply anti American.
You also state “…sectarian conflicts …had not occurred under Saddam…” ” and far more civilians have been killed to US intervention than were killed by Saddam…”
With all due respect, these statements show your very limited knowledge of Iraq history. Sectarian conflicts have been part of Iraq history for hundreds of years. We could start by mentioning the Battle of Karbala roughly a thousand years ago. However, if you wish to review conflicts under Saddam rule, then the Al Anfar Campaign caused up to 182,000 civilians deaths due to the use of poison gas by Saddam (Genocide in Iraq, HRW, 1993), the campaign against the Marsh Arabs (Shia Muslims) a crime against humanity according to HRW, and the Shia rebellion in the 90’s caused up to 280,000 deaths. No need to mention deaths caused by tortures, assassinations and reprisals from members of his regime and the deaths he caused by attacking Iran, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. If you wish to evaluate the Iraqi conflict exclusively on body count then you give Bush II a very good reason to topple Saddam because he was a dictator who spent years specifically targeting and killing thousands and thousands of civilians. Moreover, you cannot blame the inability of tribes to get together and enjoy the wealth of their land on the US government, specially when those tribes have been fighting years before the foundation of the United States.
Russia, Snowden’s host, is the nation that enabled the murder of 100,000+ Syrians. Why is it Greenwald always avoids that point?
Brendan, do you think Putin gave weapons to the Syrian government they used to murder 100,000+ civilians?
He did. Honestly, at this point though I don’t even think that’s a bad thing. Syria’s civil war no doubt started as a popular revolution against a despot but it morphed into a brutal sectarian war where next to the arguably MORE powerful Islamic State, the regime is the lesser of two evils. The regime also has the support of a sizable part of the Syrian population (I understand it to be about 1/3 of the country) and in particular the many minorities that rightfully fear being wiped out.
I don’t think that anything that happened comes close to excusing or explaining the actions of ISIS. As I stated above, the history of the conflict makes the ‘they’re brutal and hate us because of how WE (America) treat them’ theory even less sensible. Greenwald knows so little of the actual details of these conflicts that he doesn’t see this.
I agree, Brendan. Why do you think Greenwald and The Intercept never talk about the fact Russia has sold the weapons that have been used to murder 100,000+ Syrians, while the world tried to intervene and Russia prevented the UN from helping the innocent?
He’s obviously another Putin shill, like Snowden. And he has done a great deal to aid ISIS, by feeding them and others information that helps them avoid detection and capture! If it was my choice, I would have arrested him and put him on trial a long time ago.
I believe Greenwald means well, I really do. But he consistently falls victim to a radical sensationalism of his own variety. Living here, the response hasn’t been SHOCK. Civillians have not been flipping out, for the most part the media has not been reporting on it like fox news and to connect the actions of a mentally ill aspiring ISIS member with our role in Afghanistan is just utterly hostile, not to mention enabling to any nutjob who wants to commit an act of murder under political pretenses. Hell Luka Magnotta, who is a gay man, is on trial for a heinous murder right now, maybe Canada was asking for it on account of Harper’s lukewarm reception of homosexuals. Because when your Government falls short, it’s justified open season on the whole population! Hens comin’ home to roost baby!
I like to point out too that Greenwald’s reasoning is devastating for Western Muslim communities that want nothing more than to not be associated with these things. He wonders why ‘it doesn’t happen more often’, implying that peaceful Muslim communities SHOULD be hacking people apart in public and suicide bombing public transportation.
I think the assessment of radicalization experts is dead on. These are young men who are socially disaffected and are hearing the siren call of infamy. This doesn’t make their victims any less dead, but I don’t think these micro attacks are going to be prevented by widespread increases in security and surveillance. I don’t see these attacks as terrorist threats any more than Kimveer Gill’s shooting spree at Dawson. There are voids in the young men’s lives that are complex and difficult to understand–and therefore difficult to predict. Greenwald is right that we Canadians are unable to see middle-eastern conflicts from the perspective of those living in there. Our Canadian media is monolithic and paternal. Most known journalists end up working for publications on the left and right and then go into teaching journalism in colleges and universities: they are simply turning out other shallow thinkers who see the world the way they do. There is a middle-of-the-road approach to disseminating information to the public in Canada, which makes understanding the truth almost impossible. I’ve given up on on them for the most part. We have a handful of narratives that like light Hollywood fare, keep being repeated. http://www.ireneogrizek.com/2014/10/12/18004/
Glenn tweets:
Canada PM: “Our laws and police powers need to be strengthened in the area of surveillance, detention and arrest” theglobeandmail.com/news/national/…
——
Q: If someone’s home has been burglarized, and they did not have any home security, isn’t one of the first actions they’ll take is to set up security even if it means extra cost and having to learn how to use it and then take the trouble to set it when necessary, even if the probably of bulgaries in the area are small?
If one could minimize the possibility of attack on one’s nation by not engaging in unnecessary interventions against another culture (Western interventionism is demonstrably a corporatist and militarist activity, not a moral one, regardless of proclamations to the contrary)…
– that would be protecting one’s nation far better than lying about it all and then increasing the loss of general civil liberties in an uninvolved population.
WOW!!! What a very compelling argument. A nation can protect itself by not engaging in unnecessary interventions against other cultures. That is why in the 90’s Argentinians, Kenyans and Tanzanians should not have been shocked when terrorists killed hundreds of their citizens on their soil. These three nations sent weapons worth billions of dollars to Israel, and other authoritarian regimes in the Middle East and they had thousands of military personnel involved in conflicts in that area.. Moreover, their multinational, multi billion dollar corporations were manipulating the political structures in Middle Eastern countries!!
Those who follow blindly Mr Greenwald’s simplistic or rather naive explanation of terrorism need to wonder what did the Kurds in Kobane do that CAUSE ISIL to be so motivated to destroy them.
If you would like to read the US Department of Defense’s theories as to the causes of terrorism, here they are:
“American direct intervention in the Muslim World has paradoxically elevated the stature
of and support for radical Islamists, while diminishing support for the United States to
single-digits in some Arab societies.
• Muslims do not “hate our freedom,” but rather, they hate our policies. The
overwhelming majority voice their objections to what they see as one-sided support in
favor of Israel and against Palestinian rights, and the longstanding, even increasing
support for what Muslims collectively see as tyrannies, most notably Egypt, Saudi
Arabia, Jordan, Pakistan, and the Gulf states.
• Thus when American public diplomacy talks about bringing democracy to Islamic
societies, this is seen as no more than self-serving hypocrisy. Moreover, saying that
“freedom is the future of the Middle East” is seen as patronizing, suggesting that
Arabs are like the enslaved peoples of the old Communist World — but Muslims do
not feel this way: they feel oppressed, but not enslaved.
• Furthermore, in the eyes of Muslims, American occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq
has not led to democracy there, but only more chaos and suffering. U.S. actions
appear in contrast to be motivated by ulterior motives, and deliberately controlled in
order to best serve American national interests at the expense of truly Muslim selfdetermination.
• Therefore, the dramatic narrative since 9/11 has essentially borne out the entire
radical Islamist bill of particulars. American actions and the flow of events have
elevated the authority of the Jihadi insurgents and tended to ratify their legitimacy
among Muslims. Fighting groups portray themselves as the true defenders of an
Ummah (the entire Muslim community) invaded and under attack — to broad public
support.
• What was a marginal network is now an Ummah-wide movement of fighting groups.
Not only has there been a proliferation of “terrorist” groups: the unifying context of a
shared cause creates a sense of affiliation across the many cultural and sectarian
boundaries that divide Islam.
41
• Finally, Muslims see Americans as strangely narcissistic — namely, that the war is all
about us. As the Muslims see it, everything about the war is — for Americans —
really no more than an extension of American domestic politics and its great game.
This perception is of course necessarily heightened by election-year atmospherics, but
nonetheless sustains their impression that when Americans talk to Muslims they are
really just talking to themselves”
You can read the full report at:
http://www.acq.osd.mil/dsb/reports/ADA428770.pdf
I read the report and I disagree with it. My logic is simple. Nigeria, Mali, Indonesia, Argentina, Tanzania, Belgium have no direct interventions in the Middle East. Some of those countries only have half empty embassies in the Middle Eastern countries. Yet, they have been targeted by terrorists. Moreover, Al Qaeda and ISIL leaders made it clear that their aim is the establishment of Islam worldwide. You can believe in the argument of staying away from the Middle East to avoid being attacked, but history is not on your side as many countries that stay away from the Middle East lost and are losing their citizens due to terrorism supported by Middle Eastern groups.
Terrorism is the poor man’s war.
War is the rich man’s terrorism.
And so (to conclude my point), minimizing the foreseeable, avoidable risks of corporatist/militarist meddling – while not reducing civil liberties – is at least part of what ought to be considered sensible.
For instance, the nations of Nigeria and Mali, and the autonomous Kurdish region of Iraq may minimize the possibility of terrorist attacks from Islamic extremists by stopping their corporatist militarist meddling in Afghanistan, Syria, Saudia Arabia…
LOL, Sufi Muslim. Greenwald and many others, like me, have home security systems. Are you suggesting we should not have them? Because that would be not just stupid, but psychotic, No serious analyst in the world would even consider giving up security.
Greenwald likes to bitch about surveillance but, make no mistake, he lives in a place with lots of cameras and private security! And he does that to protect himself and his loved ones.
Missed the opening block quote tag, but it’s obvious anyway where the quote ended and my words began.
NOT TERRORISM BY ANY STRETCH
(Canadian author here) These events in Ottawa may be violent acts resulting in the very sad and regrettable loss of human life, but this has NOTHING to do with ‘terrorism’ whatsoever. Military personnel and the politicians who send them off to battle ARE TACTICAL TARGETS who participate in acts of war on other nations. We can’t possibly call it justice when Canada acts militarily overseas and then call it terrorism when others hit back at our military infrastructure.
Here’s why the gunman didn’t commit a ‘terrorist’ act by attacking uniformed military personnel and attempting to assassinate their Commander in Chief: His act is either a ‘crime’ if he acted without any state backing, or it’s an ‘act of war’ if he was state-sponsored. Military personnel and their leaders are tactical targets because defeating them creates an (albeit minuscule) comparative advantage for the attacker (i.e. it’s not just about instilling fear in the civilian population). It’s important to distinguish this terrible act from the act of say setting off a bomb in a crowded public market for example, which has no tactical purpose other than invoking fear amongst civilians as a means of coercion (i.e. terror). …Which is where the word came from: Terror–ism. We’re being fools if we start yelling ‘terrorism terrorism!’ every time we’re scared. The Canadian civilian population was not attacked this week; it was our active combat military and its leadership that was attacked.
In summary, let’s certainly be mournful of these Canadian deaths, but let’s NOT play with words and call it terrorism (because that’s just silly). The military is not civilian by definition and therefore definitely does not qualify, even under the broadest of definitions, to be targets of terrorism. If attacking uniformed military personnel at a moment when they don’t expect it was ‘terrorism’, then all wars would be rife with acts of terrorism. Let’s agree that definition doesn’t make sense.
NSA as of present is doing this to anyone who opposes government.
Iphone:(i am myself a witness)
Phone power button disabled.
wifi grayed out.
camera disabled.
Phone turn on and off remotely.
Adding random threats on notes.
Iphone net never works.
Battery changes from 80% to 20% every now and then.
Andriod google phone:
Same as iphone story.
Buttons stop working by use of a software bug.
Windows:
the os hacked.
wifi disbaled.
playing audio files of threats when laptop is turned off.
Add all the above and google,apple claim they don’t sleep with NSA. The intercept need to be careful and inform user that NSA can still hack all phones and windows and Apple is telling lies.
A little influenced by the concept of divine retribution, perhaps? It’s amazing how lots of people can never see it as a senseless act of violence promoted by certain ideologies, rather than some kind of punishment for sins committed initially by whities.
You cannot make it any clearer. The reason you have to endlessly repeat the same simple point is not because so many people aren’t getting it, it’s because they’re rejecting it. (That’s a general rule for simple points clearly expressed.) So, you can either keep on repeating yourself forever for no effect, or you can try to understand how these people are thinking. That could enable you to give them a more effective response.
Rejecting the notion of causation is just simple cognitive dissonance or willfully purposeful. So people can’t accept their actions are causing the reaction because that would imply culpability and guilt. Others willfully perpetuate innocence to justify continuing their actions for monetary gain. Dr Ron Paul taught us all about blowback, but that notion is not convenient for some people.
No one is rejecting the notion of causation. What is being rejected is the unambiguity of the distinction between causation and justification.
hey barncat, you write: “you can try to understand how these people are thinking. That could enable you to give them a more effective response.”
glenn is not trying to respond to these people. He is trying to get them to respond to his commentary in an appropriate, intelligent way. Obviously, this is beyond the comprehension of certain people, including those who use words such as “unambiguity”…
Barncat
I certainly see your side of it. Bin Laden in his own words:
“……Thus the American people have chosen, consented to, and affirmed their support for the Israeli oppression of the Palestinians, the occupation and usurpation of their land, and its continuous killing, torture, punishment and expulsion of the Palestinians…….”
(b) The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq. These tax dollars are given to Israel for it to continue to attack us and penetrate our lands. So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against us, and they are the ones who oversee the expenditure of these monies in the way they wish, through their elected candidates.
(c) Also the American army is part of the American people. It is this very same people who are shamelessly helping the Jews fight against us.
(d) The American people are the ones who employ both their men and their women in the American Forces which attack us.
(e) This is why the American people cannot be not innocent of all the crimes committed by the Americans and Jews against us.
(f) Allah, the Almighty, legislated the permission and the option to take revenge. Thus, if we are attacked, then we have the right to attack back. Whoever has destroyed our villages and towns, then we have the right to destroy their villages and towns. Whoever has stolen our wealth, then we have the right to destroy their economy. And whoever has killed our civilians, then we have the right to kill theirs.
Justification or cause and affect? I would say both (even as he spews anti-Jewish hatred).
@CraigSummers –
A less controversial (provocative) example would be the attacks of 9/11. They caused the WOT and invasion of Afghanistan. The dominant narrative is that they also justified those responses (effects). Pearl Harbor was the proximate cause, and also justified, the war against Japan. There are innumerable unequivocal examples (if viewed from the right side).
But it doesn’t matter what anyone thinks of any particular case. My argument is that a cause can also serve as a justification. Whether any particular cause is also taken as a justification is a matter of personal judgment.
Greenwald’s problem is that although he explicitly states that his causes are not intended as justifications, others are choosing to consider them justifications anyway. That should be expected. There’s nothing necessarily wrong with that. It’s only wrong if someone says that Greenwald is doing the justifying. In that case they are “willfully distorting” him. What they are doing is attributing their own judgment to Greenwald. THAT is the problem – not that they’re failing the grasp the simple point about causation vs. justification that he’s been repeating for years. They are rejecting the distinction because they are seeing causes that also serve as justifications(*). The effective response for Greenwald would be to insist that others take responsibility for their own judgments. (If you think about it, there’s actually an interesting irony lurking here.)
Thanks for your reply.
(*) What is “obvious” is that there are two separate questions: 1) What are the causes of an action, and 2) Is the action justified. That is true and obvious. The problem is that, although the questions are answered separately, they are also closely related, because one or more causes that are identified may also serve as justifications. For example: A physically attacks B. B responds with violence and subdues A. The cause of B’s violence – A’s attack – also (possibly) justifies B’s violence.
If military action in the Middle East creates terrorism, and Western governments know this, then what is the logic of doing it? To increase terrorism.
The proposition that military action against a weak foe provokes an asymmetric response (terrorism) is unremarkable – in fact, it is conventional wisdom. But many people can’t process the implication that western governments are deliberately fostering terrorism. So when someone such as Greenwald makes the rather obvious point that wars in the Middle East foster terrorism, these people make loud accusations about ‘justifying’ terrorism.
You generously assume that such people are too stupid to see the distinction between causation and justification (too subtle), while I take a more cynical viewpoint that they are only pretending to be stupid. However, I don’t reject the possibility that they are both stupid, and pretending to be stupid, at the same time.
>”So when someone such as Greenwald makes the rather obvious point that wars in the Middle East foster terrorism, these people make loud accusations about ‘justifying’ terrorism.”
Which (at least in the case of these wars), is a stupid ploy to avoid ‘justifying’ the wars in the Middle East. *however, I’m willing to admit they may be so stupid they don’t know it’s a ploy.
Your logic is no good. That an effect is predictable is not sufficient to prove it’s intended. There are concomitant effects. When I drive my car, I burn gas and pollute the air. Is my intention to burn gas or pollute the air? When an enemy is attacked, it’s predictable that they will attempt to retaliate. If they succeed in the attempt that doesn’t prove that retaliation was the intended result.
So, I want to put “deliberately” aside; you’re adding something unnecessary. Greenwald doesn’t make that argument in the column. The closest he came is this:
But that doesn’t imply that long-term warfare is the intended goal. (The simpler explanation is that the WOT is just a continuation of the same ME policy that existed prior to 9/11, and the primary goal is to maintain control of the region.) So, I’ll reply to this:
I think they can for the same reason that Greenwald gave: “That’s the nature of war.” People understand that. The “shock” is due to the fact that terrorist attacks (in the US and Canada) are rare. (No one is shocked by school shootings any more.) And the anger is just a natural response to being attacked regardless of the cause. During WWII, it was undoubtedly true that Americans weren’t shocked by each new report of an attack suffered, but each new attack probably did stoke the public’s anger and hatred of the enemy.
Since you’re making this statement dependent on your point about “deliberately”, I don’t know if I have to deal with it. I’m not sure. I’ll continue to think about it…
@Benito Mussolini – Here’s a better reply to you.
Let’s grant that and everything else you wrote. It doesn’t really challenge the argument I’ve made. I’m saying that even though Greenwald is stating explicitly that he’s offering only causes and not justifications, one can make the judgment that the causes do serve as justifications, anyway. That’s not a distortion of Greenwald as long as it’s made clear that the judgment is their own and not Greenwald’s. I’m not excluding those with “a willful desire to distort, or some deep confusion”. I’m including anyone who decides for any reason to take Greenwald’s causes as justifications. So, for my purpose, it doesn’t matter why “these people make loud accusations about ‘justifying’ terrorism”.
“If my point were granted, it would only change the way [Greenwald] responds to the charge that he is actually justifying the violence for which he claims to be giving only causes. Instead of endlessly reasserting the distinction and insisting it’s obvious (which achieves nothing), he should simply reassert that he doesn’t consider the causes he identified to be justifying, and say that, if a reader does, he is not responsible for that judgment. He should throw that judgment back on his readers and his critics.”
I just think we should have allowed the soldier’s family to peacefully mourn and bury their son before publishing such a piece. Sometimes the conspiracies can take a backseat for a few moments.
From the BBC:
“Ottawa shootings: No Islamic State link found.
There is no evidence so far that a gunman who attacked Canada’s parliament had links to Middle Eastern Islamist extremists, the government has said.
Foreign Minister John Baird told the BBC gunman Michael Zehaf-Bibeau was “certainly radicalised”, but was not on a list of high-risk individuals.
Zehaf-Bibeau killed a soldier at Ottawa’s war memorial before being shot dead in the nearby parliament building.
Police have released video showing how the gunman stormed parliament.
It has also emerged that Prime Minister Stephen Harper hid in a cupboard in parliament for about 15 minutes during Wednesday’s attack as MPs sharpened flagpoles to use as spears against the gunman. [snip]
Mr Baird told the BBC there were no substantiated claims yet that Zehaf-Bibeau was associated with Islamic State.
Mr Baird said he was “tremendously concerned about the number of Canadians who are radicalised and are fighting in Syria or Iraq, but we don’t have any evidence to link the two at this stage”.[snip]
Mr Harper was placed in a cupboard – described as little more than a “cubbyhole” in the Centre Block after the gunfire rang out, the report said.”
For the Craig Summers scrapbook.
Forgot the link. Here it is:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-29752077
What a fuckking hero!
The killer turned out to be a lunatic, had committed a few crimes, had issues with drugs, and was thrown out of a mosque in Barnaby, B.C.
He was NOT radicalized through interactions with other Canadian Muslims, who have overwhelmingly, loudly and without any rationalization, condemned his actions, as well as the action of the other killer.
The response by the authorities and politicians have been very positive and supportive of the peace loving and peaceful Canadian Muslims — who are horrified over what has happened, are grieving for the victims and are extremely law abiding and working very hard towards the development and progress of their country.
Frankly, many Muslims feel that the authorities should detain such people BEFORE they carry out their evil plans if the authorities have valid reasons to suspect them.
Excellent! Justification vs causation is interesting. Thank you
OMG dont make me cry, i hate every form of violence, but is this not very very hypocritic? How many children are killed by those same hands, in all those years, in all Islamic countrys, i get sick of this story’s. Richt away its ALL islam, get the hell out of that countrys, how would you like it, the other way around, the whole world attacking you? Well i see, 2 man killed and you are almost at the end of your rope. SU
Islamic supremacists can and do come up with any number of pretexts to justify what they do, but I think they act as they do because they are under an ideological imperative to impose islamic law, kill/subjugate/enslave the kuffar, and create an islamic state. In fact, that’s what they say themselves, when they’re being honest.
Do comments really get moderated here? Many times my comments are not posted, but I see some really unacceptable obscene words nowadays.
Maybe some of these moderators ken salaried Stasi rodents spend their working hours posting disinfo here. Maybe Stasi rodents — known to be unsanitary — are held to a different standard than say, folks [sic] the american Stasi has tortured. Does it bother you, rodent, that you don’t get everything you want, all the time?
And maybe some of these moderators aren’t average americans — they don’t expect their torture subjects to be polite. (I’m just speculating, and foolishly engaging in a little wishful thinking. It doesn’t happen often.)
Dude! You have a problem.
Mr. Greenwald
“……They even invent fairy tales to feed to the population to explain why it happens: they hate us for our freedoms…….”
It’s wrong for the Defense Science Board Task Force to compare all Muslims to Muslims that seek power by terrorizing and murdering innocent Muslims and non-Muslims. There are a billion and a half Muslims all with varying ideas of freedom and democracy. Indeed, many Muslims admire our freedoms – like (many of) the Muslims that marched in Tunisia, Egypt, Iran and Syria for political rights. To say blatantly that Muslims hate our freedoms is simplistic and ridiculous. It’s an attempt to broad brush all Muslims into a single subset of people that oppose the freedoms we enjoy in the west – which is completely absurd.
On the other hand, it’s just as clear that Islamic terrorists that derive their philosophy from Islamic fundamentalist doctrine do hate our freedoms. Indeed, they hate our freedoms so much that they are willing to kill any number of Muslims to impose their idea of sharia law on Muslim populations which are – for the most part – anti-democratic to the core. The current movement by Islamic fighters like ISIS, al-Qaeda, Boko Haram etc. is a world-wide, anti-globalization movement that seeks power to rule (subjugate) over Muslims and non-Muslims with fewer freedoms than many of them “enjoy” under the current dictators that rule today in the greater Middle East. Extreme Islam is anti-freedom just as dictators like Assad oppose our freedoms (and are willing to kill as many Muslims as possible to retain power). It is no fairy tale to suggest that these Islamic/religious movements do, in fact, hate our freedoms.
The often-cited Defense Science Board Task Force made other serious errors in their report as well.
Should read:
“…it’s just as clear that terrorists [who claim to be Muslims, and] derive their philosophy from [their own twisted and un-authentic] Islamic fundamentalist* doctrine [that is in clear violation of Islam’s primary source, and the only source the Muslims accept as the Word of God, The Qur’an] …”
“[* I’d like to point out that the word, fundamentalist, is essentially a Christian term. So I admit that I am examining Islam through the thick and dark glasses of my own understanding of Christianity, and am not looking at Islam for what it is.]”
“…it’s just as clear that terrorists [who claim to be Muslims, and] derive their philosophy from [their own twisted and un-authentic] Islamic fundamentalist* doctrine [that is in clear violation of Islam’s primary source, and the only source the Muslims accept as the Word of God, The Qur’an] …”
Anytime you are murdering and terrorizing innocent people to gain power, your philosophy should be challenged – whether it’s Abubakar Shekau, Abu Bakr al Baghdadi or Assad.
Thanks Sufi
Sure, but their philosophy is NOT Islamic, as understood by the overwhelming majority of Muslims, and as is clear from Islam’s primary source, the Qur’an, and 1400+ years of Traditional scholarship, especially that of the esoteric traditional Muslims.
“The Cowardice of Bill Maher’s Anti-Muslim Bigotry: What is brave about expressing an opinion that’s already held by a plurality of Americans?”, at:
http://www.thenation.com/article/185105/cowardice-bill-mahers-anti-muslim-bigotry
Excerpts (my emphases):
Thanks for sharing a truth
The first part of what you said would be true if the perpetrator wasn’t Canadian. Note that he was local, only adopted the ideologies of those being waged war on in the Middle East by Canada, yet no proper connection or affiliation such that to justify ‘bringing something back’ to the country participating violence on ‘his’ soil (since it isn’t his soil, instead Canada was). Same with the event tat took place in Quebec a day earlier.
Which proves why the US has dropped from 11th to 21st in Reading among the western countries since 2009.
http://www.businessinsider.com/pisa-rankings-2013-12
What exactly proves why your cite says “the US has dropped from 11th to 21st in Reading among the western countries since 2009.” BTW, no need to capitalize “reading” in that sentence. You might want to consider talking to an editor, or spend more time reading.
MRW, how is it that this “proves why the US has dropped from 11th to 21st in Reading among the western countries since 2009″?
BTW, no need to capitalize “reading” in that sentence. You may want to talk to an editor about that, or just read more.
I think part of the problem is too many dictionaries; there needs to be some consolidation. Americans need to settle on one or the other: the NSA’s, or the kind you find in the library.
Stan: “Too many dictionaries”? Really?? LOL, you’re obviously dumb or stupid drunk!
You’re snarky comment just shows people how ignorant you are, again.
Wow, you were stupid twice in just one day. Wanna try again?
Difficult times, but Canada has had them before.
‘Course, we’ve been n Afghanistan for a dozen years or so. Taliban-funding opium trade at record highs. We’re leaving a country in civil war.
Took part in destroying Libya, too, didn’t we? Civil war there too.
You think what has happened in Irqq was worth it? Those weapons of mass destruction?
Or Yemen. Or Pakistan. Or half of Africa, where the Americans think they can send in drones to assassinate people whenever they feel like it.
Yes, they are difficult times. I hope more Canadians are not killed, and that citizens and government do not let their guard down due to an irrational fear of government surveillance.
Obviously invading Iraq was stupid, as many of us said from the very beginning. But what do you think we should do NOW when IS– or those who sympathize with them– are killing people or conspiring to kill them in Canada, the U.S. or allies? Comprehensive surveillance seems like a good option, compared with some others like those being used in China or Israel.
Yeah savage, maybe you’re right. In war, obviously, bullets do not fly in both directions. Maybe the only sensible response is to beef up the goon squads and sic ’em on the hands that feed them.
And by the way, what do Stasi grub worms eat these days?
More immature snark… Can you do better than that? Are you crazy or just drunk?
Where are the “goon squads” and what do you mean by “Stasi grub worms”? Do you have pictures of these things?
Get a good night’s sleep, man.
Pro up, then try again. Never good to stop when you’ve made a stupid statement, Stan.
Getting paid overtime, Stasi grub? Listen, you malevolent shit-stain: one man’s snark is another’s bullshit cutting.
But you are precious! It’s 2014, and here you are claiming there is no such thing as an american goon squad or a stasi rodent.
You are a fucking child without a past, posing an adult. Nothing you people do makes sense, and none of your explanations for what you do make sense. It’s the same thing over and over… lose, lose, lose… Rinse and repeat. (And make serious coin.)
I thought I could no longer underestimate you people, but I was fooled again. I understand, from ‘polls’, an even larger percentage of americans endorsed your most recent bit of blood-letting than the percentage of americans who endorsed the invasion — wrong country (oops) — in March 2003. Not only do you not learn, you just get dumber.
Good luck, loser.
To address Stan, take a step back and maybe make a coherent argument against Savage’s point. If we ‘cut the bullshit’ as you so aptly put it you’re still left to address the question of what our next action should be. Let me summarize for you: A radical, religiously based, movement has been conducting a military campaign and in the course of doing so has threatened, and openly attacked citizens of our nation. At this point in time we have no reason to believe that these attempts on Canadian life will stop. Without dwelling on the past or engaging in mudslinging, are you able to post a coherent plan moving forward? Since you’re so against military involvement I’m curious to hear what you believe the proper response would be.
Oh my god… another reason to ban the automobile and all knives! And if one refuses to give up these terrorist devices… shoot them dead. Saves on trial costs! Another fear propaganda screwup. I support the safety of all brother’s and sisters who serve in the name of protection is the people and freedom… but freedom was shot Monday… and propaganda rides a dirty white horse.
It was not hard to understand then:
“Avoid doing what you would blame others for doing.” – Thales circa 600 BCE
“What you do not want to happen to you, do not do it yourself either.” – Sextus around 300 CE
“Do not do to others that which angers you when they do it to you.” – Isocrates 436–338 BCE
It is not hard to understand now:
“When you punch someone in the face, odds are very good that you’re going to get punched back, and maybe they land that counterpunch, or maybe they don’t, but that fist is going to come whistling at your face, count on it, and if it misses, there is always another fist, curled and hard and ready to fly” Pitt-today
LOL, ancient quotes are funny distractions, Thanks. But do you think we should use surveillance to track, locate and detain people that want to kill you or Westerners?
Fuck you, american savage. The only people trying to kill me are americans.
Stan, I don’t fuck men like you. Ever. But who are these Americans you speak of? Do you feel in danger, or are you just making drunken stupid claims?
More Stasi grub lies: I have never fucked a man; I’m simply not inclined. I am certainly not drunk.
The americans I speak of? You, of course, your beloved Stasi, and every evil, boneless american who comfortably accomodates this totalitarian shit. And no, I do not feel in danger, which upsets you, of course. What I do feel is contempt, american.
What’s your gig pay? Overtime? Retirement benefits? Does being a sneaky, hiding little shit puff up your ego? Or do I make you feel like an inferior ankle-biter, possibly knowing I have withstood a decade of american style torture. (If you know that, you know I don’t tremble.)
You are a total idiot Stan
You hurt my feelings, Craig. But I’m ok; there is some consolation. You lot make me look pretty smart, but going by american standards, it’s nothing to brag about.
You know that quaint saying, “Evil thrives when good people do nothing”? I think it needs re-work: “Evil thrives when people are evil”. What do you think, Craig?
I think you are an idiot Stan
LOL, idiots like you bringing up surveillance is a funny distraction. Thanks. But do you think perhaps something you or western nations are doing is the cause behind creating people who are out there to kill?
Well thought out Doc. It’s the kind of simplistic response I expect from you.
Simple statements are the most likely to be correct. It isn’t hard to understand the concept.
Well said, Craig. FYI, he’s not the first one from the Snowden/Greenwald camp to attack me like that. Trolls like that are all over this site and Greenwald posts… People from Anonymous (Texas branch) said they would “run a train on your [my] old lady” when I challenged them on Snowden’s claims last year. That means they are threatening to gang rape my girlfriend.
I’m vigilant, and I’m not backing down.
You really shouldn’t; this time it worked, but it’s unrealistic to expect every explanation to be simple enough for you.
Nice try from this ‘commentator’. So, does Mr. Greenwald fancy himself to be an unbiased spectator to world events as so many in profession claim. I wonder if he would be free to pen his comments if he was living under the rule of ISIS, Iran or even Abu Dabai? I sincerely doubt it. He doesn’t even make mention of the Canadian soldier who was shot in the back by the terrorist scum and how the soldiers of Canada have fought and died to ensure Mr. Greenwald’s right to speak and write as he sees fit. Mr. Greenwald is to me, like so many on the left in Canada and the US who would be the first to be placed against a wall and shot if the forces of evil that they so readily defend were to win in this war of attrition between the Jihadist scum and the west. I have no respect for Mr. Greenwald or those that side with him. If he feels so strongly about the unfortunate of the Middle East, then he should pack up and go join them. And good riddance!
Thank you Scomo, I couldn’t agree more.
It’s amazing how a keyboard warrior fancies himself. He wouldn’t feel so free under the rule of Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, UAE, or any of the many US-supported dictatorships. You wouldn’t have heard much more than his screams if he had been tortured in Guantanamo, Bagram, or any number of CIA “Black Sites”. And he wouldn’t be able to say anything at all if he was one of the many innocents killed in Iraq, Yemen, Pakistan, Somalia, or Afghanistan by Western bombs and drones. He doesn’t even make mention of the thousands of civilian men, women, and children killed to ensure Exxon’s and BP’s profits. He is like so many who cheer the killing of others by others, as long as he isn’t in harms way himself. He shows no concern for the deaths and destruction caused by his side.
If he feels so strongly about these righteous wars, then he should pack up and go fight them.
I’m noticing in the comments that some have only read the the headline and first few paragraphs before commenting. At best these people have ignored one key paragraph but I know I need not point out which one it was. Defence of our governments past actions and more so recent decision is perpetuating the problem of future generations of Islamic extremist’s continued hate, fouled by the blood of their martyrs, warriors and fallen heros. The blood we spill paints a bigger target for the next generation to revenge on our children’s children as it is impossible to exterminate them all. The next generation is already training and being filled with hate and simply pointing to the flags on the bombers is all these children will need to see to bring their hate to our home.
Finally a voice of clarity and reason
I strongly condemn the act of violence by a misguided individual on our parliament, My prayers and thoughts are with Cpt. Nathan’s family & friends, but How come Media start using “”Islamic extremist”” word throughout the media channels yesterday? it seems like some dumwits were waiting for an excuse to attack on a faith? all media and social media’s bashing came just in hours without any insights, investigation and proofs? this is an American way of bashing not very Canadian stuff, discriminant wording is hurting millions of peaceful Muslims who condemn this Pathetic act ! I do believe Extremist has no religion, they are just using religion for their own agenda, in every religion there are some brainwashed bigots, If misguided people used in the name of “Allah” or Christ sake its their personal choice and will?? because Neither Allah or Christ taught them to do that, Islam has been used by some bigots they misinterpreted and misunderstood into their own biased mindset, who should we Blame? only those individuals who continue to use it for their own agenda !! Not the Faith !
Mathew de Gord(Calgary) killed many in rampage 2014, and Justin Bourque(Moncton Mass Killer), they are all Sick minded extremist, they are attention seeker sick minded individuals !! Media shouldn’t use peaceful religions with above individuals, if it is necessary then use other religions too associated with any extremist (To be fair) ! Educated dumwit should know that,Michael Zehaf-Bibeau Born and raised in Canada, went to Canadian school, his early education has been done within the surroundings of Christianity, should we blame all of above people for their religion? if some idiots couldn’t understand the message of Quran, they misinterpreted it, who is at fault?? Islam or those individuals? I firmly believe that it is their very own bad choice, I strongly condemn their act of violence and I do believe that they never read the Quran because Quran says ” Anyone who kills one human actually kill the entire humanity, curse on those individuals !!”‘
test
Firstly as a disclaimer, I enjoy Glenn’s commentary, ever since he came to my notice on Democracy now in I think 2007 or 08. He’s clear, articulate, well researched, and in my humble opinion comes from a place of justice and truth, equanimity and equality for all, as apposed to privilege and power…….. Rather than a “Left/Right” paradigm ….Context of world history, family history, class, ethnicity, sexual orientation, religion or lack of, social and business networks, and personal experiences is always the prism in which humans process information and inserts certain bias no matter how “liberal”, “conservative” or “whatever” views one holds.
This article in my view, while needs to be written, is not very controversial. Unfortunately stating the obvious risks to foreign and economic policies of endless war, theft and murder of millions of innocents in the name of democracy and homeland security is always going to ruffle the feathers of privilege and power….
“Terrorism” like “Democracy” is devoid of meaning as Glenn articulated in this and previous articles……..
PS: I always differ to “Benito Mussolini’s ” comments for further clarity and a good laugh to each article ………………..;)
Someone using the tactic of warfare called terrorism as a motive for their crime doesn’t happen very often. I don’t see why we have to get all bent out of shape over this one particular motive for criminal activity.
Michael: first of all, it happens everyday or nearly everyday in various parts of the world. You made an ignorant assumption. Would you like to try again?
Second, what if the person who was murdered was your son or loved one? Would you be so cavalier then?
“What if the person who was murdered was your son?” Ask that question of a drone victim’s family. Or the father of a child with deformities suffered from white phosphorous used in Fallujah.
Yes, it happens everyday or nearly everyday in various parts of the world, and is often stamped “Made in USA” — like those WMD US soldiers accidentally bumped into in Iraq during the suck on this [sic] kill-fest.
And second, I am quite cavalier about your concerns. After all, it was Jesus smokin’ Nazi garbage in Texas (family) who sicced the Stasi on me. And now, after more than a decade of literal torture — yours, and their lives, are penny stocks.
Now, go tell mommy at Stasi HQ.
Stan, do you want to embarrass yourself again? Your stupid comments are making my friends and I laugh!
Say something stupid, again. Please :-)
Jerry, I truly believe you are an expert level statist. I should pity you, but that would be too good, my pity is better used for a more deserving person. Your utterly ridiculous and oh so predictable “what if it were your son…how would you FEEL then”….Does it ever occur to you,particularly if you read this article,that feelings are a moot point , it’s war right? The very same question can also be asked of the millions of civilians that have been bombed, displaced,jailed,raped,tortured and the like by US and Canadian soldiers, amongst others. I can only conclude that you like many others simply close your eyes and say “well that’s just collateral damage, those Ppl don’t count”…..would you ask any of the innocent civilians in the middle east how they”feel”????
Greenwald: Thanks for your snarky, assumptive and short-sighted “update.” It illustrates some of the points commentators have been making.
First, I’m not a “conservative commentator” and don’t assume— as you so often do— that everyone who disagrees with you is a conservative or a government employee. I’m a proud independent liberal who is passionate about gay rights and other civil liberty issues. I also think much of what you say is extraordinarily biased and highly suspect. I’m also a professional researcher with over 15 years of experience and know that much of the “evidence” you have offered to support your claims during the last 16 months could easily be fabricated. I most assuredly do not assume thieves like Snowden are nearly as truthful as you would have us all believe.
I think some of your claims are partially truthful, but you have exaggerated and spun the facts in an aggressive effort to spread fear and hatred of Western governments. Most of what you publish is no better than what we typically see from Fox and similar “news” outlets.
To be clear, many of us have been challenging this piece because you said “in what conceivable sense can this incident be called a ‘terrorist’ attack?”
Aside from semantics, we now know that there was a murder of another soldier shortly after the murder you wrote about this, and we also know there is now reason to believe both murders were carried out by people sympathetic with IS. I think if you weren’t so incredibly biased by this notion of “adversarial journalism”, you would have seen that earlier. You’re a smart guy, but an incredibly biased and aggressive one.
It’s your assumptive, narcissistic and factually inaccurate claim— and this is surely not the first of its type— that makes some of us take time to stop and call bullshit. Maybe if you made a better effort to report facts in an objective manner, rather than making wild claims based on half-truths, people like me would not challenge you so much.
You should expect more of us to dispute your claims and those of your criminal friends like Snowden and Dotcom. If you help criminals manipulate elections, you should expect people like me to challenge you at every turn!
Brother this article is not controversial …By any means of “risk” it’s stating the obvious ……..
1… Snowden “is not” a criminal and 2 the ones manipulating elections are the HARPER ILLEGAL GOVERNMENT !!
Nothing in this reply of yours refutes anything Mr. Greenwald said.
I’ve got an idea: Maybe Western countries should stop bombing and invading Middle Eastern countries! What a concept.
Well said Jerry Savage.
hi jerry
thanks for the snarky reply. maybe you can elaborate on how the article was “assumptive, narcissistic and factually inaccurate”. being the “proud independent liberal who is passionate about gay rights and other civil liberty issues” that you are i’m sure you are able to support your claims. given that you can’t resist a completely superfluous shot at ed snowden i suspect that you really are a liberal – an unprincipled jellyfish without a moral compass.
If sympathizers of IS or other jihadi groups murder Canadian soldiers who are on duty, that isn’t terrorism per se.
Jerry, if you’re a “professional researcher with over 15 years of experience”, as you claimed, then you should have no problem whatsoever laying out the (alleged) evidence against Greenwald’s position. So I hereby challenge you to put your money where your mouth is – and to do so publicly. As someone who’s apparently fond of challenging others in public, I expect you to have no problem with being so challenged yourself.
Your comment has little to do with what Glenn wrote in the article. Canada initially got involved in Afghanistan as a peace keeping mission. Under Paul Martin our armed forces changed to a combat mission. You don’t use tanks to supposedly build a school as the media in Canada reported. When the “faith based” Harper government was elected the middle east policy was radicalized to support Israel. Canadian military F-18s fired Tomahawk missiles as a part of the attack on Libya in 2011. What did Gaddafi do to Canada that forced Harper to launch attacks on Libya?
Putting “semantics” aside Harper turned “his” Canada against nations such as Palestine. It is understood as a fact that Palestine does not have an Army, Navy and Air Force. Due to his new model on this issue Canada lost it’s seat on the Human Rights Council at the U.N. in 2011. Canada held a seat on the HRC since it began.
Now Harper is taking Canada into a war the U.S. could not win in Iraq. (as well as targets in Syria) The International Laws on War that Glenn mentioned were misplaced after the staged trials at Nuremberg. Canada is killing people who looked our way for support and assistance once upon a time. You say Glenn is inaccurate while you hide behind a willingness by bowing to authoritarian laws. The article is the absolute truth that too many Canadians have a glossy view of themselves. Take a look in the mirror to see the real criminal.
As a Canadian… I do not support any of our foreign policies, and frankly? I think PM Harper is a fucking idiot, and have never wanted us to be oversees in the first place. In all honesty, all we should do is tighten up security checkpoints around Parliament, then pull all troops outta anywhere else and just send Red Cross/Humanitarian aid after the fact. Unfortunately, some 35% of our country was the ‘majority’ vote that put Harper into power, thanks to first past the post. So, aforementioned, his a idiot, and thus will pull some of the stuff this article points out. Also, I have no idea where he is getting ‘majority’ of Canadian’s want to go to war? Nobody I know has expressed that belief. (Yes, I know that I don’t know everyone in the country, but still)
As a person who is (not perfectly) clairvoyant, I believe that the “terrorist” attacks in Canada were set up in order to intimidate me from coming forward. American institutions do this all the time. (http://www.amazon.com/The-Terror-Factory-Manufactured-Terrorism/dp/1935439618). I also am quite sure that I was drugged the night before we were supposed to meet up, as I awoke feeling something I’ve never felt before––as if my body were very heavy. It was very unpleasant. They know I rely on dreams in order to guide my actions, so they drugged me in my sleep knowing I would think it was foreboding something awful. The government will do anything to silence skeptics of the war on terror. It is time for people to start listening to writers even more skeptical than Glenn (read: conspiracy theorists) who were right all along about 9/11 and the war on terror. If Glenn could report on the 28 classified pages on 9/11, he would be doing us all a great service. http://28pages.org/ As Thomas Jefferson wrote, “Experience has shown that even under the best forms of government the powerful have in time and by slow operations perverted it into tyranny.” We’re heading toward 1984 with these corrupt, sinful politicians.
“Sudden Jihad Syndrome”
Yes, it’s a thing. Or at least CNN is trying to make it one: https://twitter.com/imraansiddiqi/status/525445346198306816
Mr. Greenwald is quite correct that more terrorist attacks are a foreseeable consequence of Canada’s foreign policy. So it is unfortunate the government didn’t move earlier to curb civil liberties. I suppose they needed the attacks to build popular support. The Canadian government is unfortunately less pro-active than the US, and probably simply waited for an attack rather than launch its own false flag operation.
Is the article attempting to justify terrorism? Probably not. But it really isn’t relevant; the Canadian public wants the government to stop terrorist attacks, regardless of whether the attacks are justified or not.
As for people not being able to make fine distinctions (re causation vs justification), I don’t see why anyone should be surprised. People only need to do as they are told – so exercising judgment is quite unnecessary. It may have been otherwise when people lived in small remote groups that didn’t have a proper leader and had to rely on their own initiative. Now, with the advent of modern communications, they can be told what to do at all times. So judgment, like the vermiform appendix is a vestigial relic; someone should devise an operation to remove it.
>”Is the article attempting to justify terrorism?”
Glenn, as is his want, is doggedly trying to define terrorism. Absent legitimate nation/state authority (see; jus bellum iustum), it was clearly a criminal act (i.e. as opposed to the 4 Blackwater contractors convicted of ordinary murder yesterday who were operating under properly instituted State authority).
*Of course, should the PM/Canada decide it was an act of war by ISIL, they could invade the Islamic Levant … somewhere east of Italy and west of ginger trees.
#boo
Terrorism doesn’t require a definition. It falls under the I know it when I see it statutes.
“Terrorism doesn’t require a definition. It falls under the I know it when I see it statutes.”
Like Art and Pornography… I thought this Terrorism thing looked familiar.
Maybe I can explain this to you, sir. It’s really very simple in the end, and I haven’t done the best job explaining it.
Some will say that the article justifies terrorism because they think that the “causes” that are being identified can also reasonably serve as, or be taken for, justifications(*). They don’t necessarily believe that the justifications are valid. They may think that others will be impressed, if not persuaded, by the justifications. This doesn’t imply that they believe that the article is “attempting to justify terrorism”; that will depend on whether they believe Greenwald when he says explicitly that his causes are not intended as justifications.
In the article, Greenwald has done pretty much all he can. My point is that the distinction he’s making is not as clear as he insists, and it’s not true that “Only a willful desire to distort, or some deep confusion, can account for a failure to process this most basic point”. If my point were granted, it would only change the way he responds to the charge that he is actually justifying the violence for which he claims to be giving only causes. Instead of endlessly reasserting the distinction and insisting it’s obvious (which achieves nothing), he should simply reassert that he doesn’t consider the causes he identified to be justifying, and that, if a reader does, he is not responsible for that judgment. He should throw the judgment back on his readers and his critics.
(*) A cause can also be a justification. That’s why the distinction is not unambiguous.
Edit:
Instead of endlessly reasserting the distinction and insisting it’s obvious (which achieves nothing), he should simply reassert that he doesn’t consider the causes he identified to be justifying, and say that, if a reader does, he is not responsible for that judgment. He should throw that judgment back on his readers and his critics.
—
What’s happening is that some readers and critics are making Greenwald responsible for their own judgment that the causes he’s giving can also serve as justifications. They have a right to that judgment; they have no right to attribute it to Greenwald. So, the most effective response would be to make that point instead of reasserting the distinction between causality and justification.
To be accused of providing justifications for terrorism is a serious matter. I think the response should be as effective as possible. That’s why I’ve written these comments, for whatever they may be worth.
I grant you that the distinction is significant, since if discussing the causes of terrorism is construed as a justification for terrorism, it may soon become illegal in Canada. So the distinction is the difference between living inside or outside a jail cell.
It will probably remain safe to attribute the causes of terrorism to motivations so bizarre (they hate us for our freedoms), that no one could possibly construe them as a justification. However to suggest that IS is deliberately provoking the west to attack them, so that people in the Middle East will be forced to reject the West (and more importantly its values), is more problematical. It doesn’t justify terrorism, but it does suggest that it may be based on rational calculation – so I would assume that such statements will be properly criminalized.
You’re the best, sir.
I was working so hard trying to get my argument together that I wasn’t able to reply to some of the commenters who replied to me, and I regret that. But I’m glad that I was able to post my finished argument as a reply to you. Thanks.
Here is the difference you piece of garbage, we don’t cowardly attack unarmed people going about their daily business.
To understand the cause of radicalization you need to look at the Islamic concept of paradise as described in the Qur’an. It represents the blueprint for an ideal society as envisioned by Muslims and it assigns women a status only slightly higher than that of house pets. By depicting the perfect woman as being insecure and obedient, Islamic teachings circumvent the need for men to have any elaborate relationship skills while at the same time cultivating sociopathy.
Children raised with this mindset will see the Western concept of a loving marriage between two equal partners as completely alien. Add the fact that those with poor social skills are ill equipped to function in our culture and you are left with a large number of people immersed in a situation where happiness as they understand it is unattainable, leaving disaffection as the default state of mind.
I am a big fan of Glenn Greenwald, but I have to say the title of this article is very callous and the body of it is just as bad. I think this is the worst thing I have ever seen Glenn Greenwald write.
You might feel differently if it was someone you knew getting run over by a car or shot in the back by some Jihadist who couldn’t get his VISA to travel to Syria.
We see it over and over again. Violence begets more violence. When will we learn that lesson?
Your comment “if it was someone you knew” shows that clearly. If someone you knew, who was just shopping at the market with their children, was killed by a bomb from a predominantly muslim country, would you be urging our government to go to war with them? That is what the people our government labels ‘terrorists’ are doing. What is the difference? Does it matter who starts it?
Until we grow up enough to be able to recognize that, and look for other ways, we are no better than children on the playground slapping one another and saying “he started it”.
Only when we are ready to become adults, to talk instead of fight, will we stand a real chance of ending this. Obviously our current government is not ready for that step. I still have some hope that Canadians will remember the lessons and examples from our past leaders and go back to our peace keeping and diplomatic efforts under another government. If not, we condemn ourselves, our children and future generations to a society where no one is safe from revenge.
Emoting has its place, but it does not rebut the facts and logic Greenwald presents.
Yeah… I am freaked out by drug cartels, but when I read an article saying our drug laws support and grow these groups, my reaction is “This is important information, I don’t want frigging cartels, if this is a way to get rid of them, by all means, let’s look at that.” Ideas like that can be right or wrong, of course – maybe there is no connection between drug laws and cartels, and maybe there is no connection between military action and terrorists. But to the degree that your attitude is “God, I would do just about anything to solve this problem”, I think researching causality is a good thing, not a problem.
Person: Please consider sharing a name next time. I’m not a fan of Greenwald, for a variety of reasons. I’m also a lifelong liberal and professional researcher who agrees with you completely. My real name is Jerry Savage. I live in Seattle, WA. You can reach me at jerry_savage@msn.com if you want to talk to others that share your perspective and want to speak up more about your views on this matter ;-)
I think the explanations given by radicalization experts is the best: these are young men who may be adopting the echoes of ISIS terrorism, but in fact they are bumblers. Their victims are just as dead, I know, so I’m not minimizing the gravity of their acts, I just don’t feel threatened. There is a complex web of social voids and pressures, I think, that create these shooters. Kimveer Gill, the Goth who was the gunman in the Dawson College shooting, probably has more in common with these two young men than real followers of ISIS. I’m not blaming technology, but I do think that it’s changing how we all relate to one another. And I think Greenwald’s statement about the panopticon effect of low-grade chronic surveillance is germane here. When our private mental space shrinks to even smaller dimensions inside our own heads, it’s a problem. Not all individuals, especially those that are socially disaffected, will be able to cope. I’m making broad generalizations here, but it strikes me that there are just too many causes for these events to give legitimacy to one cause in particular.
I’m not sure who’s shocked exactly. This was no more shocking than some gangland maniacs shooting up the Eaton Center a few years ago. 911 was really shocking, and even if it was in New York, plenty of Canadians died that day.
It’s people like you, who think you’re in the right preaching your anti war, tolerance ridden agenda. You disgust me
The author of this ridiculous article is a joke. I guess these soldiers deserved it according to him. This was muslim extremist terrorism period. These muslim terrorists need to be eradicated from the face of the earth. Until that happens these type of acts will never stop. The author is clearly a dipshit.
Unfortunately, a lot of people’s understanding of world issues is not based on fact, but emotion. Any critical assessment that even fringes on bringing into question the legitimacy of ones emotional reaction to the events in Canada as they see them, will be reacted to emotionally. Of course this will be taken advantaged of and exploited by conservative players towards their own ideological ends. Facts matter, but they are not the only factor, and in the popular psyche, they matter probably less.
I am born and raised in this wonderful country. I would never wish any harm to anyone.
I agree with this article completely…… There is no justifying all the blood shed all over the world, but one needs to realize that not everyone wants to live like us.
Just as we would not tolerate our home being bombarded by the views and lifestyle beliefs of others.
Yes we want to help save the world. But the world is made up individuals, whether it be by singular or groups.
Montreal is the best example. Look at the fight over the languages. We are an extremely multi ethnic diverse group of people coming from all cultures,Crees,religions,languages.
Yet we have had to fight to keep our rights to speak our languages and follow our beliefs because those from our, OWN HOME, wanted to to take it away.
I can understand their fear of loss as Canada is much bigger then Quebec.
Still they have no right to force us a people of Canada to live the way they wish.
Canada never bothered Quebec so why vice versa.
Live what you know and be happy.
Do I believe war for oil is right? Nope. Does the U.S. do this? Sure. However, fighting to save the thousand being barbarically slaughtered overseas by ISIS, yes we need to help. Fighting for the oppressed, woman kept as slaves and worth less than dogs…yes! What you would like is for everyone to turn a blind eye and ignore what is going on. We should fight for what is right! No religion should advocate violence…none! Not all decisions governments make regarding war is correct….and their reasons are suspect at times…but these radicals remind me of the Nazi’s. Death to anyone who doesn’t join our religion or group…awesome view on life. Grrrr.
I guess what we should do is pretend nothing is happening….would this stop “terrorists” NO! They need someone to kill. We would all be a target anyway. Killing is one thing but binding, stripping an innocent woman naked, slitting her throat and bleeding her out into a bowl because she doesnt convert to Islam isn’t something a sane person does. Disgusting. Sick of this B.S.
It’s hilarious getting public officials and para-military running around all over the place with their hair on fire like a bunch of scared little cowards, by just invoking the Islamic Jihad Terrorist motive. ISIS tech soldiers are ROTFLTAO. Sometimes people go Postal. It’s just Postalism. Nothing to get two entire countries hysterical about. We don’t need to lock down an entire city just because someone goes Postal.
Michael, how do you know its “Postalism”?
Both of the murderers caught thus far are “Muslim” and at least one was denied a passport because Canada suspected he wanted to join IS. Like most Greenwald supporters, you seem to view this as an opportunity to attack Canada and mock the legitimate fear many Canadians have about another attack. Next, you’ll suggest, like Greenwald, this is a good time to dismantle surveillance programs– right as radicalized Muslims are killing Canadians in the street. As you work to try to get Western nations to let their guards down in the face of a threat, at least take the time to get your facts straight and avoid stupid theories like “postalism.”
If anything, to try to stop deliberately whipping the public into a state of panic and hysteria so war mongers can gain consent of the public for more war, these incidents should be treated like Postalism. The motive should be treated as secondary and not worse than the actual original act of violence. Our government employees are elevating the motive of terror to the highest irrational level in order to justify stripping the public of more of our rights as well.
You stated: “…right as radicalized Muslims are killing Canadians in the street.”
Should read:
“…right as two radicalized and misguided Canadian Muslims unjustly killed two innocent fellow Canadians in the street.”
—-
I personally don’t believe that they were in the spiritual state of ‘islam’ (peace) at the time they carried out their evil acts, but that’s too complex to explain here.
Passionate psychopaths kill a dozen Americans in the streets of Chicago almost every weekend. Who cares what the motive is.
Michael, that is another fear mongering lie from Greenwald supporters! I think you’re another disgusting liar, and fear mongering wannabe.
Do you have PROOF that “Passionate psychopaths kill a dozen Americans in the streets of Chicago almost every weekend”?
Be careful before lying about our cities, you could get exposed for that.
Fuck you.
“Who’s going to protect the Canadians… You greenwald”???
You live under the blanket of protection we provide to write you shit. That blanket will fall off soon enough.
Once again,Greenwald has seized upon murder by a terrorist to try to push his political agenda and convince Western governments they should not do everything within their power to protect citizens. The only fear mongering I have seen as a result of this incident is the fear Greenwald is trying to create of Western governments trying to protect their citizens. Most decent human beings would take a moment to mourn and try to empathize with the families of the fallen soldiers and the many Canadians who fear another attack. But Greenwald pounces on this as an opportunity to attack the Canadian government, just as terrorists did. It is becoming increasingly clear why he has worked so hard to provide access to intelligence stolen from Western nations. No doubt, the IS and other similar groups greatly appreciate his reporting as he attacks Western governments while providing them with tools to evade detection. More and more, we’re seeing Greenwald’s allegiance to terrorists as well as criminals like Dotcom and tyrants like Putin.
These so called “terrorists” are being used as an excuse for Harper to take away more of our rights and freedoms. These 2 incidences have got USA , CIA, NSA written all over them… take your pic
Your neocon shtick gets older and older.
Thank you Mr Greenwald for a courageous and intelligent article. My husband and I have been shaking our heads listening to all the nonsense coming out of the media since yesterday. Yours is the first voice (heard on As It Happens) to link cause to event. As you say, we haven’t been a peaceful nation in 13 years.
Thank you, Glenn. Great article. I would like to add that this Canadian is vehemently opposed to Canada’s participation in Iraq!
Why is the message not getting through? Because it’s a fine point.
If you speak to one person, you may have 1,000 words. If you speak to 10 people, you get 100 words. If you speak to hundreds people, you get 10 words. If you need to speak to thousands of people, you get one word, or maybe a sound bite if you’re really good.
Your thousand-word essay is being responded to by speakers speaking to thousands of people. It’s more important that their words rhyme, than they make sense. Expect to lose the fine points of the argument in the sound-bite discourse – save them for your faithful readers, for the history books, and for the policy-makers – one would hope.
i believe that this incident is caused by the participation of the canadian government in the military action against the ISIS. i wonder why this doesnt happen in japan, korea, singapore, rome…simply because these countries mind their own business (they dont interfere in the other’s affair). my advice to canada stop interfering so there’ll be peace.
i am a canadian nowhere near these attacks, believe me when i say that i am not shocked over these events, I AM ANGRY! There is no doubt there are countless victims on foreign soil due to the actions of western government, that all too trye and sad. If only the cultures of the middle east and surrounding countries found a reason to lay down arms for any reason but it seems and i emphasise that it “seems” that these type of people do not know what it’s like to be free or peaceful, they are the majority of the time fighting over something, and innocents as well as aggressors are caught in the crossfire, it’s the nature of the beast! If anyone thinks that just because these things are happenning close to home is shocking then did 9/11 really teach us? Causality? Fine! The injustices caused back at home for middle easterners and other immigrants, is a reflection of their own nature as well. The only shocking part is that we allowed these people to a better life within pur borders and that still isn’t good enough. The small amount of muslims or other religions that are against our terms, our freedoms, and the availability of products or services need to be banned to fit your beleifs? Give it up!! All that aside, the fact that normal everyday muslims can be “radicalized” like this to attack at home is unbelievable. How easy is your mind to poison? Is your family facing atrosities at home at the hands western military? Why are they still there and you are now a canadian/military citizen? ISIS and other “terrorist” groups target WESTERN CULTURE as what they see as evil, and we are just the other side of the coun because we see them as evil, the remember the fact that the ISIS leaders stated our own kindness and leniancy would be our undoing. I for one can only give so much, but let’s see one pitted against the other! What would you say to western suicide bombers in crowds of people that live in wartorn countries that are murdered by someone white with a bomb on them in the middle east? Bottom line is our leaniancy and understanding will only go so far, at what point and cost is it time to say fuck diplomacy and pick up a weapon, i’m not from the usa but if you think i’m shy to pick up a Gun to protect my homeland then watch yourself! If this type of thing has to become a trend then excersize your right as a canadian or american to enlist! It is every person who is willing and able in this country or the states’ responsability to join and fight for the life and freedom you enjoy as they did back in world war 2. To say that war in these countries is entirely because of western influence is flat out WRONG! Because they would most likely be fighting about being opressed by a dictator, a holy land war, or extremists trying to influence the masses to achieve their goals. To all the extremist muslims that foloow these terrorist organizations, don’t just be puppets, the action of you attacking on our soil, or me attacking on yours is just an eye for an eye, leaving us blind and that’s all, but i’ll be damned if i don’t take more than two eyes of yours while losing two yours! Trust me when i say pissed off canadians are nothing to fuck with! We won the war of 1819 and the americans know it. Doesn’t mean we hate each other, we will band together to secure a free way of life for muslims, christians, jews or any other. Just don’t stand in the way, or you might get run over!
@Mona
I think the hysteria this engenders suggests much about the insecurities of “identifying with the state” (h/t Josh Marshall).
To wit, Michael Cohen’s reflexivity on twitter:
https://twitter.com/speechboy71/status/524962441340674048
Why is that worth mentioning? It seems to be a non-sequitur if you follow the argument. But I think it’s a clear projection of what many “lawfare” types find truly threatening about Greenwald’s discourse. His “lack of faith” in state violence.
I’ve really come to have contempt for Cohen. He’s childishly petulance where anything Greenwald is concerned. GG came to totally overshadow him when both were at the Guardian, and professional jealousy can be a wicked thing.
Lawfare is hell. I may disagree with his positions but Cohen is a warrior that fights for my freedom to disagree and I am thankful.
Glenn Greenwald spits at Canada after our soldiers come under attack by cowards.
Greenwald should be permanently banned from entering Canada.
The Ottawa’s Muslim community raises over $43,000 for a children’s hospital.
http://www.cheofoundation.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/TBT-Fall2013.pdf
Scroll down to see it.
BILL OWEN: Did it make the news?
This is above and beyond all the other charitable work Muslims do.
Terrorism is the use of force amongst non-combatants to destroy property and murder people otherwise engaged in routine activities in order to make a political statement. It is murder and destruction to provoke fear in the civilian populace, and is outside the course of normal military activities.
How is that for a definition.
Pretty well defines what the British and Americans did to Japanese and German civilian populations when they fire-bombed their cities.
. As far as facts go terrorists do attack Canadians just like Americans and pre 911 with interesting variations due to Canadian immigration, ethnicity and so forth. Air India Flight 182 is a good example along with the millennium bomber. So to think it has anything significant to do with Canadian participation in Afghanistan is far fetched at best. And for Glenn Greenwald to write: “Regardless of one’s views on the justifiability of Canada’s lengthy military actions, it’s not the slightest bit surprising or difficult to understand why people who identify with those on the other end of Canadian bombs and bullets would decide to attack the military responsible for that violence.”
That is ridiculous in these past two cases, shooting some young dad guarding the tomb of the unknown and running a pair of similar guys over is hardly comparable and says that all violence is equivalent terrorism and insanity but justified only when it is done against the west.
The challenge for western profit seeking war-mongers, is the question “Why do they hate us ?” It’s a question they never have, nor want to honestly ask; because if you do, you might just have to honestly answer it.
A bit weird seeing someone defending terrorism but whatever.
Re: “The issue is causation. If there’s a way to make that any clearer, please let me know.”
Here in Canada, whenst Trudeau suggested that ‘we’ should consider the causation/contributing factors regarding blow-back, Prime Minister Harper accused him of “committing sociology”
As Noam Chomsky once said, ” if you want to stop terrorism [blow-back], stop participating in it “
So, why didn’t the (most likely illegal) CSEC bulk internet spying watch the two suspects before they attacked? It seems probable that they may have communicated electronically. Maybe too much hay in the haystack to find the needles?
Thank u, one of the best things I have read on this whole subject.
There are rumours that Canada will expand or “make legal” the illegal CSEC bulk internet spying exposed by Edward Snowden (even though existing police efforts had been successful at flagging the killers as threats with existing powers) and there is the possibility that the indefinite detention without trial powers “security certificates” will be revived, even though people like Maher Arar have already been compensated, and the government chastised by the courts, for the sharing of unconfirmed intelligence with the Americans, resulting in innocent people being detained and a Canadian being tortured.
But Canadians are feeling traumatized and their political leaders facing these two killers, one who’s family tried desperately to seek medical help for him, and the other a petty criminal…are feeling compelled to close ranks and wave the flag lest the country collapse under the terror of two murders.
Matthew Behren:
“Like those in Afghanistan who suffered 13 years of Canadian bombardment (upwards of a billion Canadian bullets fired), night raids, transfers to torture, and the daily indignities of life under military occupation, those Parliamentarians with the power to declare war — and send somebody else overseas to fight it for them — felt, in a relatively limited fashion, what it’s like for millions of the world’s war-weary populations. The image of a cowering John Baird or Jason Kenney hiding in a barricaded office must have proven a stark contrast to the swaggering, macho manner in which these men urged Canada to declare war on ISIS, further fuelling the flames of fear and hatred against Muslims.”
http://rabble.ca/columnists/2014/10/reflections-on-violent-day-ottawa
It is kind of interesting seeing Canada collectively pee themselves while their leaders simultaneously declare their continued devotion to the countries “values” even as they gut their democracy and rights in the wake of F18 bombers leaving to join the Iraqi civil war.
Greenwald is an idiot! But that’s a right he enjoys only because he lives in a liberal democracy and not in a caliphate.
Quite right. There’s no “innocence” to be lost by a Washington vassal — a country that so eagerly participates in the American war on terror, so eager to continue participating that its prime minister volunteers to fight ISIS, i.e., without Washington even asking.
Fact is, Harper is in his element. Canada is no longer that “second-rate socialist state” he once whined about in an op-ed published in an American newspaper. Canada now has gun violence in its streets, just like America. Canada now has people on the streets waving flags and uttering patriotic slogans — just like Americans.
It’s embarrassing.
“Canada now has gun violence in its streets, just like America. Canada now has people on the streets waving flags and uttering patriotic slogans — just like Americans.”
What’s embarrassing is this anti-Harper, unsubstantiated rubbish passing off as fact and logic. Gun crime
You are so biased that to read your drivel
Makes me nauseous. The problem is that Islamic terrorists want to control the world and will kill all who do not give in .that means killing all Jews Christians even Muslims who do not agree. Crawl back into your hole if you were around at the time Hitler would have won.An innocent unharmed Canadian soldier(s) killed a 3 month baby run over and killed in Israel yesterday.
Thank you for writing such a thoughtful article. I really liked how you provided lots of links to back up much of what you were saying, and I thought you did a great job of explaining properly the point you were trying to get across. I felt like I learned a lot while reading. Thanks again.
What kind if Jihadies
-Cover their faces to kill unsuspecting innocent people.
-Show up anytime (with gun) among civilians and start shooting.
-Thinks he/she being courageous and sacrificing his/her life when actually they taking innocent lives of other people..
-Bring disgrace to their religion
-Pleasing Allah???
My suggestions:
-Make the people in this Jihadies life more accountable (rather than them playing the complete victim as well) by
penalizing them heavily financially (for social costs of damages) for not blowing the whistle on the oncoming weirdness.
The parent could very well be an accessory and playing the victim
-provide social support for therapy to deal with brainwash of declared problem people
-Penalize the Priest for abuse and brainwashing in the name of religion
–Every member of this community needs to be actively helping to keep the social costs low
-Encourage open discussion within the community/in mosques with the help of saner priests to correctly interpret the word “Jihad”
-Implant a tracking device on a “suspect”. yes suspect with potential..don’t wait for him to commit the crime to punish.
-Cut on security cost by supplying a well protected rooftop security (even if a single person in ) over every public building armed with microscopic viewing instruments and a tranquilizing gun :) where there is less hesitation to shoot the suspicious person who might be innocent because it is not fatal
-have cameras in place to record the weirdness noticed to support your action to the public in case the person targeted is innocent
Terrorism is a poor man’s war. War is a rich man’s terrorism.
These poor men only own oil wells
That is an awesome quote Heffe.
Is that attributable to someone of note or did you invent it or are you someone of note?
Apologies for the delay. The quote is actually from a German/American industrial band, KMFDM. Though they likely used the following quote as the basis:
“Terrorism is the war of the poor, and war is the terrorism of the rich.” – Peter Ustinov
Causation vs. Justification: It really is obvious!
From Update II:
What is “obvious” is that there are two separate questions: 1) What are the causes of an action, and 2) Is the action justified. That is true and obvious. The problem is that, although the questions are answered separately, they are also closely related, because one or more causes that are identified may also serve as justifications. For example: A physically attacks B. B responds with violence and subdues A. The cause of B’s violence – A’s attack – also (possibly) justifies B’s violence.
So, when some people read —
— they just reject the distinction being explicitly made because they would consider the identified causes to also be (possible) justifications. And though their opinion may be debatable, it is certainly not unreasonable. (Additionally, some will reject the distinction because they think that others will consider the causes to be justifications, regardless of their own judgment (e.g., the press). That can also be a reasonable opinion.)
So, it’s that simple and obvious. Greenwald’s distinction between causation and justification will be rejected by many, not because they are being obtuse or possess “a willful desire to mislead” or misread, but because causation and justification can be closely related. The distinction is NOT unambiguous.
So your point is that Greenwald should have included an in depth scholarly treatise on the subtle distinctions between causation and justification to your satisfaction? Or that we should not publicly discuss or acknowledge that a government’s aggressive and inhumane foreign policies fuel the anger that in turn drives violent acts, because such an honest discussion somehow legitimizes retaliatory violence in the eyes of those who are uncomfortable with holding governments accountable and thus choose to equate a discussion about causation with justification?
No, just a better explanation than he gave in the first Update. He doesn’t think the distinction is “subtle”, he says it’s obvious.
I saw your comment below. Greenwald has devoted two Updates to defending this distinction. He’s also been defending it on Twitter. He’s had to defend it every time he’s used it. So, it’s significant. It’s not a matter of “splitting hairs”.
The distinction is obvious in the context of an article that is focused on government foreign policies that understandably foment anger. The mitigating and non-mitigating factors relative to an individual’s unjustifiable choice to commit violence against innocent people are topics for a different article.
Can a soldier, the state’s willing instrument of violence against innocent people globally, by definition be considered innocent himself? I would argue they cannot. If you are a member of the military of a nation at war, you are a combatant, and therefore a legitimate target, as you have given up your innocent status by your choice to become a member of the military.
Which it is, to anyone who took and understood Philosophy 101. The is/ought distinction.
There are those who do not want to understand it in this instance. They are making a big ruckus, as they always do when Glenn makes this point, and as they will continue to do when he makes it — no matter what.
Let me make that clearer. The people I’m identifying are in addition to the “very few people [who] would view attacks on soldiers in a shopping mall parking lot to be justifi[able]”. They think they are (at least) reading a possible justification, something that can reasonably be taken as a justification, for the violence. If they are Canadian or American, they are extremely unlikely to accept the justification; that it’s violence against themselves or an ally that’s possibly being justified may be the only reason they’re complaining.
That’s really all that’s necessary to make my case.
Yes – causation is the subject, but this article assume it rather than evaluates it. The keystone in this argument is the almost throw-away assertion that attacks on the West are in response to attacks on the Middle East. How do you know which is the chicken or the egg? Deciding that the West’s actions are the reason for the attacks on the West is to some extent an implicit assertion that the West is responsible for what’s happened – i.e. that we “had it coming” because of what we did. Simply stating “I’m not saying the attacks are justified” doesn’t neutralize that.
@Anand 22 Oct 2014 at 11:19 pm
My faith is in no need of being defended!
There is a tremendous amount of criticism and demonization of Islam, with a capital “I”.
I try to point out that Islam is not monolithic. That there are many expressions of it (“islams”, with a lower-case “i”), some are bad to evil, most are fair to good, and some are excellent, and even universalist, such as several forms of Sufi Islam.
In all the discourses of Islam since the evil acts of 911, I never saw any form of Sufi Islam represented. The “moderate” Muslims who’d appear on TV or write articles and letters were by and large not Sufis. A few were, but at least one of them (Imam Feisal) suffered from image problem after he, foolishly, supported the Park-51 project in New York – he was conned by some idiot.
So I decided to post as “Sufi Muslim”, as I adhere to a Sufi Order (Tariqah), which is universalist.
I am not “defending” my faith. I am merely trying to share it with whoever would read my comments and reflect upon them.
I’ve also seen people misrepresenting the Qur’an. So, I have also tried to explain the simple and straightforward translations of the words of the Qur’an, which are being clearly distorted.
I have always blamed THE ISLAMS OF THE EVIL-DOERS!
But the blame does not go to other forms of Islam, especially several forms of Sufi Islam.
A lot of the things some Muslims say and believe, are quite strange and foreign to me, as I and many other Muslims do not share those views at all!
Correct, on the latter part.
However, Muslims, like me, know very well the errors they make in even understanding the straightforward and clear words of the Qur’an.
Amazingly, that’s how people like Pam Geller reads these words and post them on billboards to demonize ALL of Islam.
For example, they’ll quote 2:191 without quoting the preceding or other verses in the Qur’an on the same subject.
Their tactics are bought by ordinary people, who then show up with 2:191 written on their placards to protest the building of mosques and Islamic enters.
So, we know their distortions and attempt to correct them, hoping that reasonable people will also see that.
There’s an awful lot of effort going on amongst the Muslims. However, positive actions by the Muslims are not news worthy.
Demolition of a building is dramatic and people like to watch it. But the construction of a building takes meticulous planning and work. So it’s boring.
Now, you’re being unfair.
This is a direct result of the spread of the Wahhabi/Salafi Islam by the Saudis.
The road to democracy and the establishment of gentler forms of Islam in the Muslim world goes through Riyadh, not Baghdad or Damascus.
We know how the Wahhabi/Salafi Islam of the Saudis has penetrated the consciousness and actions of a large number of Muslims all over the world over the past 40-50 years, through books, audios, videos, financial supports of mosques and schools, where the imams and the teachers teach people islams that are very much influenced by Wahhabi thoughts.
There is a Sufi commentary by Yusuf Ali that has been published and distributed in extremely large numbers over the past few decades.
Guess what?
The Saudis did not publish the original. They ‘sanitized’ it.
The original is hard to obtain, but the ‘sanitized’ version is all over the world.
Mate well done. I like the Sufis. Especially the stories about Nasrudin. The problem is, for the vast majority of us white Westerners, the only things people know of Islam are things told to them about it by other white people on the news. Also people are quick to forget about George Bush leading the troops in a hundred thousand little genocides in the name of his God. That’s a holy war. Everybody so holier-than-thou. White media is very biased – government run propaganda, and the military funds huge propaganda films such as rambo and blackhawk down and this new fury one with brad pitt. We’re all scared shitless. Not only are we scared our city will blow up, we’re scared that our easy, fat, extremely peaceful way of life is at risk. And it is at risk. Most people will do, or turn a blind eye to, just about anything in order to just be able to go to work, love their wife and kids, drive a car and take holidays to Mexico once a year. Life is good here and we dont wanna give that up. The reason it is under threat is because of many reasons. None of those reasons are Islam. But the war between the West and Islam is a major reason. A lot of money goes into blowing people up in the mid-east. Money that could be spent back home. Money that could ease the pressure of taxes against rising price of living. Not to mrntion the futility of it all. Why is this even happening anymore? It seems like this has been neverending since the Crusades. For all our God’s sake, everybody just stop fucking killing each other already!
I clicked on the Globe and Mail link in Drudge. Comments are closed due to “legal reasons”.
I suspect the truth was in there some place. Mustn’t let that get out.
I sent this email directly to Glenn because I always enjoy his work but found this comment concerning:
“one should expect that violence will sometimes be directed at you as well. Far from being the by-product of primitive and inscrutable religions, that behavior is the natural reaction of human beings targeted with violence”
The principal problem with this statement is the lack of supporting evidence.
1. Those closest to the actual violence in Iraq and Syria havent commited the latest string of attacks in Canada or abroad,
2. Family members living abroad of those most affected in the mid-east have not committed attacks in western countries either.
3. Few if any of the recent attacks in western nations have been commited by people from countries most impacted by american violence: iraq, syria, palestine or afghanistan. Instead we find people who sometimes are of middle-east desecent and sometimes not, but subscribed to a ridiculously distorted version of Islam that creates a false sense of brotherhood wit those suffering abroad, their turn to violence can hardly be considered logical, common or natural considering the overwhelming majority of those directly impacted by the violence have no desire to commit similar acts against the West,
4. the large iraqi, afghan, pakistani and syrian diaspora in both canada and the US haven’t praised these kinds of attacks, nor have they sanctioned such violence or appeared to reacting in a way you have described as “natural”. In fact one could say the natural reaction of people targeted is to avoid violence and flee to more stable nations and seek change through non-violent means.
5. this claim of causation, is a critical discussion, but seems to ignore what most people actually do when faced with these kinds of situations, instead we take the actions of a very very tiny minority who elect to become violent abroad and characterize them as sympathizers, as being empathetic and having a natural reaction to something. this fosters the notion than people of middle-eastern descent or of the muslim faith in north american hold some special empathy for other muslims more than they would for fellow americans or canadians.
6. What about reaction of muslim doctors and nurses who treated the soldier taken to hospital in Ottawa, do their actions and those of most muslims in Canada and the US who elect peace over violcence counter these causation claims and instead point to a sad case of the rare mentally unstable person looking for a cause to provide ballast to their displaced violence and rage?
Very powerful, very clear, makes complete sense. Fully comprehensible to a non-native English speaker who is a Canadian by choice & hard effort & sacrifice. Hoping this will be read by the native speakers from across the world with complete honesty to their own souls. One final note, nations become great when they have honest people by and large & truly you are one of them. May Peace & Truth prevail. Amen!
Kanada Uber Alles!
Two pieces of highly important information that were lef nout of this essay is the fact that both attackers were not from any of the countries affected by the airstrikes. Thy were in fact from Canada.
@Brendan 23 Oct 2014 at 12:49 am
They are motivated by THEIR understanding of whatever path they are on, NOT “Muslim fundamentalism”!
We Muslims are taught the fundamental tenets of Islam at a very young age.
They are divided into two categories: 1) Imaan (Inner Conviction); and 2) Actions
I’ve listed many books in another post. If someone is interested, they can get one or a few of them.
By the way, the correct term, as we say it is, “Pillars of Islam”. The term, “Muslim Fundamentalism” seems foreign to us.
Just saying.
I think what this article misses (or refuses to acknowledge, but please don’t let me accuse the author of being willfully ignorant if, in fact, he’s just ignorant) is that the cause of this ‘terrorist attack’ (or whatever name you choose to give it) isn’t simply 13 years of war that Canada has directed at…who…Al Qaeda and The Taliban? I’m not sure the author even knows. Regardless, the actual cause of this conflict is one that stretches back hundreds of years which, as the author may or may not be aware, is well before Canada became a country.
Islam, as it is generally referred to in the West isn’t, at present, an actual unified religion in that there are two major rival groups that dominant the religion: Sunni and Shia, with one group declaring the other apostates and vowing to eliminate them. They’re in the middle of what is effectively a Muslim civil war right now. It crosses national borders. It doesn’t adhere (for the most part) to government authority. And it’s been smoldering for centuries, bursting into a raging inferno most recently due, primarily, to the events of Sept. 11 and the response to them. There are groups on both sides who are civil and tolerant, and there are groups on both sides who are hardline fundamentalist and militant. The problem is that the hardline fundamentalists are, in fact, wildly militant. These are the people who will kill you because you don’t believe their version of Islam. And there are an astonishing amount of them. These militant fundamentalists are people who most of us in ‘the West’ have no real frame of reference for. These guys aren’t interested in democracy. They don’t care about freedoms in the universal, legal encoded sense. We can point the finger at our own government and say “it’s your fault for going to war after Sept. 11″ but the really hard truth is that these militant fundamentalists will bring the war to our doorstep (in any manner they can) regardless of whether we sit back or lean forward.
What’s shocking to me is that Glenn Greenwald things this is actually hard hitting Journalism. How is it in any way surprising that a government will say an attack on it’s people is unfair and wrong. What is distressing however is the ease with which he dismisses the global threat of extremists who are both fanatical and supremacist in a time when we have more readily seen this extremism for what it is – genocidal in it’s intent not only in it’s rhetoric but also in action. It’s unfortunate but it is a reality that at some point the world must be viewed through strategic interest, a view about resources, threats and so on. When you view the world that way you begin to understand that to be engaged in the world is not solely a diplomatic, social or charitable matter but also a military one. That means that you have to be out there beating the guys that are going to come get you before they do. There is no doubt that this has unconsidered consequences but no one ever thinks if what were seeing is actually a representation of something that is much smaller then it might be. How do you deal with a person group who believes that women are essentially the property of men, that those who leave a religion should be executed, that those who do not share their views should be murdered as apostates. There is no reasoning with people like that and while dissenting opinions if that’s what we would call this are important this article is drivel and is part in parcel of the new reality of the media. One where there is no point in trying to tell a comprehensive story, there is just a point to tell one that plays to a specific audience demographic. This is how you lose the middle and the reasonable regardless of whether or not those opinions are one political stripe or another. While the word terrorism is devoid of actual meaning. The word does in fact have a definition in the dictionary: ter·ror·ism ?ter??riz?m/
the use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims. It’s clear that after some more information has come out about Mr. Zehaf- Bibeau that his intent was certainly political and also in the pursuit of an agenda that can, while this may shock some for me to use this word, “commonly” be regarded as fanatical and genocidal. Perhaps Mr. Greenwald would prefer that we not prevent Genocide or not learn from the past that the way you prevent genocide is not solely through diplomatic efforts but also through bombing the shit out of the guys who want to carry it out, like they should have done in Rwanda, like they did do too late in Kosovo and like they did far too late in in Germany in World War 2. I would love to suggest that we can all get along but the thruth is that my hope for that I have decided is naive that instead for those with whom we are diametrically opposed we must prevent their ascent to power and prevent them as purveyors of fanaticism, racism, murder, terrorism and genocide. Now it’s clear that there are a great many people who disagree with these acts and behaviour. It is also clear that these kinds of organizations enjoy popular suppport by 100s of millions of people- Which is to suggest that the point is moot and that whenever and wherever possible they those groups who are the purveyors of such behaviour must be destabilized, attacked, undermined in order to be contained to opinion rather then action. Thanks Glenn for your tacit approval of the bankruptcy in the media which knows no political stripe but instead common stupidity in the name of ideology very similarly to the groups which are the subject of much debate and purveyors of acts of terror et al. You are part of the problem Glenn.
http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-full-report.pdf
I look forward to the day Elizabeth May becomes our PM. Her comment from inside the locked-down Parliament.
http://elizabethmaymp.ca/lock-your-office-door-and-stay-away-from-the-windows
FALSE FLAG tipoff IMO is: “RECENT CONVERT TO ISLAM” and staged-looking photos of police. It’s not beyond a doubt it’s just another false flag. Don’t forget the Canadian agent provocateurs CAUGHT, you can see youtubes of it.
Controlling the narrative, manipulating the meanings of provocative words like “terrorist”, redefining truth, creating emotive buzz words and dog whistles, strangling public discourse with absurd notions of political correctness, punishing honesty, killing the messenger, etc. etc. …
If only the majority of people in this country were informed enough to be insulted by the cynical ways they are so easily manipulated by by the narcissists and psychopaths in positions of power, there would be hope for real reforms.
@Brendan 22 Oct 2014 at 11:33 pm
There are 5 fundamentals of Imaan (inner convictions), and 5 of actions.
They are well known.
You may have read a translation or two of it.
Your reading is extremely simple and superficial.
Read Shaykh Fadhlalla Haeri’s commentaries on the few chapters of the Qur’an. Also read Muhammad Asad’s commentary.
And if you want to dig deeper, read some of these:
1. “Islam, Fundamentalism, and the Betrayal of Tradition, Revised and Expanded: Essays by Western Muslim Scholars” by Joseph E. B. Lumbard and Seyyed Hossein Nasr
2. “Islamic Spirituality: Manifestations” by Seyyed Hossein Nasr
3. “Sufi Essays” by Seyyed Hossein Nasr
4. “Ideals and Realities of Islam” by Seyyed Hossein Nasr
5. “Islam and the Plight of Modern Man” by Seyyed Hossein Nasr
6. “Traditional Islam in the Modern World” by Seyyed Hossein Nasr
7. “A Young Muslim’s Guide to the Modern World” by Seyyed Hossein Nasr
8. “Islam in the Modern World” by Seyyed Hossein Nasr
9. “The Heart of Islam” by Seyyed Hossein Nasr
10. “The Message of the Qur`an” by Muhammad Asad
11. “Sufi Path of Love: The Spiritual Teachings of Rumi” by William Chittick [Rumi’s poetry is essentially considered a commentary on the Qur`an]
12. “Sufism: A Beginner’s Guide” by William Chittick
13. “Vision of Islam” by William Chittick
14. “Understanding Islam: A New Translation with Selected Letters” by Frithjof Schuon
15. “Dimensions of Islam” by Frithjof Shuon
16. “The Elements of Islam” by Shaykh Fadhlalla Haeri
17. Various Qur`anic Commentaries by Shaykh Fadhlalla Haeri
18. “Inner Meaning of Worship in Islam” by Shaykh Fadhlalla Haeri
19. “Living Islam – East & West” by Shaykh Fadhlalla Haeri
20. “Witnessing Perfection” by Shaykh Fadhlalla Haeri
21. “The Search for Beauty in Islam: A Conference of the Books The Complete Collection” by Dr. Dr. Abou El Fadl
22. Various writings of Shaykh Kabir Helminski
23. Various discourses by Shaykh Fadhlalla Haeri. See http://www.shaykhfadhlallahaeri.com/ for details (Audios and Videos)
24. “The Great Theft — Wrestling Islam from the Extremists” by Dr. Khaled Abou El Fadl
25. “Introduction to Sufi Doctrine” by Titus Burckhardt
26. “What is Sufism” by William Chittick
27. “The Elements of Sufism” by Shaykh Fadhlalla Haeri
28. “The Underlying Religion” Edited by Martin Lings
29. “Universal Dimensions of Islam” Edited by Patrick Laude
30. “The Elements of Islam” by Shaykh Fadhlalla Haeri
31. “What is Sufism?” by Martin Lings
32. “Divine Love: Islamic Literature and the Path to God” by William Chittick
33. “The Search for Beauty in Islam: A Conference of the Books” by Dr. Khaled Abou El Fadl
I want to thank you Glenn for your insightful analysis of a complex and emotionally charged incident, but mostly I want to applaud your bravery and professionalism as you try to help sort through why something like this might have taken place.
It is ironic that as soon as one person is killed on our soil ( and let’s be clear that I also think it was totally wrong and unjustified and immoral for the perpetrator of the crime to kill the young soldier) we are immediately tempted to feel hatred for the groups that support this ideology yet we cannot understand that those who lose their loved ones at the hands of western coalitions (including Canada) might grow a deep hatred for us.
Do people in those countries and now their brainwashed minions here in Canada and the West get accurate truthful and balanced analysis of the underlying issues of these conflicts or do they get propaganda.
Folks, we have to stop believing any of the messages of the war machine and it’s operators and we need to realize we can all get radicalized if our suffering is too deep for too long without hope of abatement. Nobody wants to live in constant dear, loss, suffering or hatred, so if we don’t want our beautiful country destroyed by the spread of the war disease that has been escalating this past decade, we better find a way to get back to diplomacy, equity, and respect for human life – that us the hardest thing we will have to do as we will have to work collaboratively to find forgiveness and tolerance.
Maybe we can start by showing a little respect for our journalists when they try to cover a difficult topic.
@AtheistInChief 22 Oct 2014 at 10:46 pm
Yeah, Sufi, I second to the sufi muslim integration of truth with the body and soul. An ignorant soul can only see the light and peace of al-Islam (Al-islam) through humility and truthfulness. The western atheists and Christians in a bid to separate themselves from total peace and truthfulnness resulted to demonization of al-islam (the true essence of human perception). They thought they were hurting muslims, by sponsoring terrorist attacks on muslim soils and defending extremist groups that are fighting and killing muslims. But I guess that did not make muslims to seize their resilience. It was even Canada’s own people that shot themselves, and Canada is there blaming Islam and muslims for their adversity.
I understand why you don’t want the term hijacked :)
I’m on your side man, but as a Sufi you must know that a vast chunk of the worldwide Muslim population isn’t.
Dear Glenn,
We really appreciate you. Thank you for being a voice of reason when others would back away from what must undoubtedly be a very tiring job.
All the best and I look forward to more from you.
While I think that distinguishing ‘causality’ apart from the ‘value’ of what we consider to be ”terrorist activity’ may have some value, it pales to insignificance in the ‘rage’ and offense’ taken by those who hold our military activities as the only valid activity in a very troubled world. It makes no difference to them why there is terrorism only that there is and ‘they’ target ‘us’.
This is limbic system thinking, the kind that ensures the preservation of the species, or might, if we were still only equipped with what sticks and rrocks we could pick up. Attached to a Wehrmacht, or a thermonuclear device, or simply only a twin-barrelled shotgun, as it was yesterday in Ottawa, such a ‘mode of reasoning’ is still life-changing. It’s all just a matter of scale.
Fear and the responses it engenders are hard to deal with at the best of times by the most disciplined of people. It’s a good thing that incredulity kicks in to moderate it or Ottawa could have easily been the scene of a security driven blood-bath yesterday. Than goodness the police involved didn’t feel threatened – it was a target-rich environment for the unrestrained.
Oh No! I’ve been moderated. LOL. Didn’t even think the comment was that harsh.
It’s very doubtful that you’ve been modded.
The man,Michael Zehaf-Bibeau, who killed Nathan Cirillo in Ottawa, is no terrorist. But he will be called a terrorist and PM Harper will now fight terrorism on Canadian soil, becoming the Defender of Canadian Freedom and perhaps winning the next election as a result.
His actions are those of a psychotic and anti-social individual, who frequently are know to use current events and topical issues to draw attention to themselves and confront the powers they perceive to be repressing them. To this man the recent conversion to Islam and the supposed desire to fight abroad are grandstanding and importance seeking gestures and pathetic desires for relevancy.
By noticing his antics, buy intervening in his life, by seizing his passport, Canadian police gave this man the importance he sought. There may have been the immediate catalyst to action of the murder in Quebec on Monday, but this pathetic individual chose to end his drama on the stage created and presented to him by the authorities; the world stage of international terrorist.
And what a godsend this is to an embattled Harper and his sycophantic minions! We now have “terrorists on the doorstep of Parliament, we must “redouble” our war on terror. We must stand strong!!! These are the words that will carry Harper into the next election as the Champion of Canadian Values, (to him read ‘American’ values).
We in Canada, like GW in Iraq, will now fight non- existing terrorists in our midst. We will prevail against the hoards that are yet to be, we will give no quarter to evil doers.
Harper in his ecstasy said that we cannot permit these horrible evils to be brought to our shores from abroad, yet Michael Zehaf-Bibeau, is a Canadian from Quebec, born and raised a non-Muslim. He is Canadian, what he did was done as a Canadian. But he was “radicalized”, the convenient word of the hour. Perhaps he was, but not by Islamic extremists…
yeah and the liberals and nap did such a great job when they had the majority. We both know there are worse then harper but its quite easy to pock at someones flaws having never been in a position like his. disgraceful you people fucking breed, god damn left wing morons
Stupid ISIS! They are a bunch of cowards and idiots!!! How can someone commit such an act on innoncent people! So sad :(
well they are a bunch of idiots , but they did not appear out of a vaccum . They have billions of dollars worth of weaponry and training , enough to over come a whole army. And in that region , everyone is either in poverty , or just above poverty . So , tell me how did they get their funding ? who paid and trained them ? who will benefit from them ? Just putting a few thoughts out there for you
Does the author suppose that the majority of Afghani citizens supported the Taliban, and that the people of Syria and Iraq want what Isis is offering? Seems so, because if he thought otherwise then he would understand why Canadian troops are being deployed. The article indicates a childish grasp of world politics and complete ignorance of the distinction between warfare and acts of terrorism. In addition it does the Muslim community a great disservice because it does not distinguish between the wishes of the silent peaceful majority and the actions of the crazed fundamentalists. That is a pity because I suppose he was trying to be pacifying rather than inflammatory. Missed the mark but sadly, from the comments I have read here, it doesn’t seem to matter because most of his readers don’t seem to make the distinction either.
This article displays a shocking lack of understanding of asymmetrical warfare and, in trying to explain the action of Martin Rouleau (not justify, as GG points out very clearly), does a great disservice to Canadian soldiers and to peaceful Muslims everywhere. Canadian peacekeeping missions in Afghanistan were aimed at suppressing radical Islamist fundamentalists and restoring liberal rule in Afghanistan. By saying that Canada has been “at war” for 13 years, the author implies that our troops were fighting against the wishes of the majority of Afghanis, and that is patently incorrect. Canada’s current involvement in the bombing of Isis should be applauded but the author seems to see it as an attack on Muslims and as yet another reason why Muslims might be prompted to retaliate against Canada. This indicates that he supposes Isis represents the will of the majority, and that it is not a bullying force. The article, which I expect was written as an attempt to placate, displays a childish grasp of world politics, and an ignorance of Muslim values, and as such introduces concepts that are inflammatory rather than pacifying. On the positive side, it was probably well-intentioned.
I am afraid it is you who displays an immature and uninformed view. Kindly explain why if Canada’s reasons for participating in this war are for altruistic reasons, then why didn’t they intervene to prevent the atrocities in Africa, or the 3 yr civil war in Syria when Assad was murdering 200,000 of his own people and displacing over a million . There are numerous other atrocities around the world , that the U.S. and Canada and their other Western allies, just choose to ignore, because there no geopolitical or material gain to be had in getting involved.
Rest assured, that the U.S. and its allies are going to war in this particular case, for their own benefit, the humanitarian reasons given are merely to pull the wool over the eyes of politically naive simple people .
Hey knucklehead;There has never been a liberal gov’t in Afghanistan,and they don’t want your brand of illiberalism.
Nancy,
Please explain this ‘lack of understanding’ of asymmetrical warfare.
The Afghan government was a government formed under occupation, and as legitimate as the regime in France under German occupation. If the Maquis were freedom fighters, so were the Taliban.
As for asymmetrical conflict, the attacks in Canada were a spectacular success. For the price of a couple of lives the attackers have thrown the country into disarray and paralyzed the capital for a day or more.
“In a ‘clearly prearranged exchange,’ a conservative MP, during parliamentary question time, asked Prime Minister Stephen Harper (pictured above) whether this was considered a ‘terrorist attack’”.
I see Americans are unfamiliar with the concept of a “dorothy dixer”. A “dorothy dixer” is an Australian term for a planted question, typically in a legislative chamber by a member of the answerer’s (usually a minister) own political party (and usually during what is called Question Time, which an hour each sitting day devoted to questions from ordinary members to the ministry). (In fact it is so common that the minister’s own staff will often have written the question for the questioner to ask.)
For the record, the term itself is reputedly named after an AMERICAN advice columnist who did much the same thing in her column (to allow her to write more interesting answers than the average genuine question).
Dorothy Dixers are extremely common in Australian parliaments, state and federal, but judging from the Canadian example cited in the article I suspect the practice occurs to at least some extent in ALL constitutional systems which allows government ministers to be members of the legislature.
To say this is shoddy journalism is an understatement; it is, in fact, dangerous. There is no way Canada’s role in Afghanistan could be seen as war mongering.
“It actively participated in the invasion and occupation of Afghanistan and was an enthusiastic partner in some of the most extremist War on Terror abuses perpetrated by the U.S.”
Even your “actively participated” link goes to an article that says Canada has played a positive role in Afghanistan, and “some of the most extremist…” gives the only (or at least the worst) example. To compare Canada to the US is completely unwarranted. Heck, this is so bad (and incorrect) that ISIL could use this as a recruiting tool which could put blood on your hands. I am not a fan of the Harper government, but for you to say he’s being sensationalist, well, pot calling the kettle black. Shame on you.
Canadians go home,right your listing ship,and remove your stinking warmongers from office.The only difference between America and Canada is you talk funny and are colder.
Go ask the Afghanis how they viewed the Canadian soldiers. As far as they were considered, all US allies parading around were the same. Canadians can pat themselves on the back and claim to be peace keepers, but under this Conservative govt. those peace keeping days are long gone. The reason ISIS threatened Canada was because they view the Canadians the same way they view the Americans…all infidels. When we go barging into regional conflicts in far away places, we should expect some blow back, which is exactly what Greenwald was pointing out.
As for the Canadian govt..’s policy of identifying potential ISIS sympathizers ( of which apparently there are close to 100 on the watch list), and then taking away their passports so they wont be able to leave , doesnt make any sense whatsoever. The crazies stuck at home, stewing, frustrated over not being able to run off and fight , now take their rage out on Canadians on home soil. Both these maniacs who killed the soldiers in the last few days, had their passports taken away. The logical move would be to let these idiots fly off too Iraq and get their asses killed, and if they did manage to survive, their passports could be revoked while they were abroad, so they would be stranded elsewhere.
There is a basic fallacy in your comment that is pretty glaring. On the one hand you have conceded that groups like ISIS view Canadians and Americans alike as infidels, worthy of chastisement but then immediately speak about their hostilities as a blowback and natural reaction to the west’s military endeavours. I think that certainly Iraq in 2003 was completely uncalled for, Afghanistan I know less about, but yes, probably a lot of atrocities were carried out and worthy of reprimand, but as you said, when all is said and done, you could be a Jain Monk who refuses to kill a fly and the likes of ISIS and the Taliban will still hate you as a Kafir, worthy of subjugation or death. Western atrocities should be stopped because they are immoral, not because they will appease homicidal religious fascists.
“There is no way Canada’s role in Afghanistan could be seen as war mongering.”
Certainly there is. Al Qaeda was militarily insignificant, the Taliban hated the Arab fighters that were kicking around, and we spent 12 years fighting Pashtun (who are not Al Qaeda). If we had stuck with the original UN mandate we should have been out of there in 5 months.
Thank you Glenn for this great article!
Excellent article.
This is even sillier than most of GG’s provincial sermonizing. Both the “Islamic” killers in Canada were recent converts who knew nothing about real Islam and just wanted the scariest iconography they could find for their kamikaze missions.
Of course there’s a compelling argument to be made! Undeployed, neutral military personnel in non-militarized locations are not valid targets. The common usage of the word “terrorism” is more encompassing: “non-combatants” are really what we need to be thinking about here.
Let’s say we grant your point. Then let’s assume that Anwar Al-Awlaki was an Al-Qaeda combatant (although never proven). Was he a valid target when he was traveling by car in Northern Yemen with Samir Khan, or was the drone attack that killed him an act of terror?
1) Multiple press reports, journalists on the ground, and tribal leaders confirmed that he was associated with Al Qaeda members. This is public information that you chose to ignore.
2) He was in an area so dangerous that even the Yemeni armed forces would not go to apprehend him. An area the Yemeni government considers as a conflict zone. He specifically chose to stay in that area to be protected by military means against the Yemeni government.
3) The US armed forces did not kill him to spread or to impose an ideology on the Yemeni people.
4) Al Qaeda is not a state, but a group of individuals located in multiple countries. When the members are found in Indonesia or Spain..they get arrested and presented to a judge. However, the laws of war apply against them when they are found in war zones.
This is not illegal. What *specific acts did Alwaki commit that would be illegal under U.S. law?
We have already answered that question, but you failed to acknowledge the answers. Let me answer it again for the last time. Financing, lodging members of a foreign terrorist organization is a crime under 18 USC 2339. Moreover, the US, Yemen, Iraqi and Afghan forces do not have to present an arrest warrant to each Al Qaeda members in war zones.
I’d like the shake the hand of whomever created the whole “even if you don’t support the war you have to support the troops” idiocy. That is so mind bogglingly dumb it’s almost beyond words. How it can go from the way people perceived war and its “war fighters” in the 70s to now in the digital age where we can get first-hand information and unedited videos from both sides.
Seriously, absolute masterful public manipulation. My hat goes off to you.
“Even if you don’t support the war you have to support the troops,” translates in practice into “My country right or wrong,” putting “America, love it or leave it,” on the lips of liberals.
Wasn’t it Martin Luther King, Jr. who said that the United States wa the greatest purveyor of violence (and by inference, terrorism) that the world has ever known?
By comparison, these Muslim “terrorists” are pikers, indeed.
Beyond Vietnam is a phenomenal speech, I wish more people knew about it. The quote you’re referring to is as follows:
“As I have walked among the desperate, rejected, and angry young men, I have told them that Molotov cocktails and rifles would not solve their problems. I have tried to offer them my deepest compassion while maintaining my conviction that social change comes most meaningfully through nonviolent action. But they ask — and rightly so — what about Vietnam?
They ask if our own nation wasn’t using massive doses of violence to solve its problems, to bring about the changes it wanted. Their questions hit home, and I knew that I could never again raise my voice against the violence of the oppressed in the ghettos without having first spoken clearly to the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today — my own government….” -Martin Luther King Jr.
Glenzilla wrote about this in January 2013:
MLK’s vehement condemnations of US militarism are more relevant than ever
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/21/king-obama-drones-militarism-sanctions-iran
Also check out Paul Street’s numerous articles on Dr. King and the inter-related “Triple Evils”:
for example, “Remembering the Officially Deleted Dr. King”
http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/01/17/remembering-the-officially-deleted-dr-king/print
Wasn’t it Martin Luther King, Jr. who said that the United States was the greatest purveyor of violence (and, by inference, “terrorism”) that the world had ever known?
These Muslim “terrorists” are obviously pokers by comparison.
My reaction when the first news of the Ottawa shooting came out was- what kind of terrorist is this? The shooter seems to have run into the Commons building, past hundreds of unarmed civilians. He had what you might call a target-rich environment. If this had actually been a terrorist, wouldn’t there have been dozens of dead scattered all over the place?
This looks an awful lot like a military attack on a military target.
Thank you. I have a feeling that a majority of Canadians would agree with you. Harper is certainly anti-democracy and has fascist tendencies, that is undeniable.
Thank you for your passionate caring Mr Greenwald. I am grateful to brave, patient people like you who take the time, trouble and risk to share your insight and knowledge. It is people like you that give me hope.
Well written, thoughtful article, especially the author’s second point about the murky definition of terrorism. I’ve been mulling that point while watching the news coverage today.
Poke a hornet’s nest with a stick and you might get stung.
That doesn’t make a hornet a terrorist.
That makes the person using the stick naive if he believes that poking a hornet’s nest is legal so it can’t hurt him because god wouldn’t allow good law abiding people to be hurt by terrorist hornets.
Now onto the issue of treating human beings like insects…
You’ll have to explain your analogy a little better, where exactly is the hornet’s nest and who exactly are the hornets?
You seem to believe that any Muslim worldwide can be one of these hornets because he/she considers this nest to be their real home. The question again then is why do so many Muslims worldwide identify with the hornet’s nest that is ISIS?
Hornets are the little winged creatures with stingers, Grasshopper.
Wow, if this is Glenn Greenwald himself I’m astounded. That’s the best you can do? Have you lost faith in your own metaphor so soon?
It’s not.
I have never represented myself to be GG, Mr. Brendan Fraser.
This guy is just a fool, I think he just learned how to make metaphors.
ISUS sprang from the head of Cheney,and is nothing more than blowback from poking the Islamic hornets nest,a rhetorical term about how we should have minded our own business,and not interfered with ME nations,as we have since 48,for the expansion and security of the Israeli state,which of course has made them and US and now Canada,more insecure.
Klattu’s 1951 utterance;If some are insecure,no one will be secure rings loudly 63 years later.(The Day the Earth Stood Still)
Lots of people on this planet have been wronged in some way, I think it’s inexcusable to imply that we should somehow expect random acts of terror going forward because now we’re messing with Muslims. Greenwald doesn’t seem to care about victims of terrorism in the slightest. Whatever happened to the laws of war? Do those not matter when you feel they’re being broken out of some sort of divine justice?
A commentator with integrity would simply condemn these things for what they are, and then go off and speak out on whatever policies he/she feels are a problem.
There is nothing “random” about these acts of terror, they are for all purpose and effect acts of revenge.
What you fail to realize being the simple fact that violence begets violence, as such these “acts of terror” are continuing an spiral of violence which started much earlier. This isn’t a “one sided war”, there are victims on both sides, many acts of extremism grew out of the sorrow of horrible loss due to some act of violence or another, like for example an drone strike. Caring only about one sides conflicts victims only ends up being a weak justification for more violence committed by one side.
We bomb them, they bomb us, we use that as an excuse to bomb them, they use that as an excuse to bomb us, it’s as simple as that at this point.
You also can’t discuss any possibly useful future policies, without addressing the root cause of the problem, instead you seem contend with condemning something while not actually understanding the reasons for it happening in the first place.
Summoning the “laws of war” also has a certain irony to it, considering the US and it’s allies has a long history of interpreting these “laws” in whatever way fits their needs. Constantly redefining what constitutes as an “civilian” or an “enemy combatant” to clean up reports from civilian casualties and legitimize their killing in some way or another.
“Terrorism” qualifies violent acts perpetrated by the weak side in asymetric conflicts. It is non-uniformed and generally ordered by a non-governmental organizations (since terrorism supporting governments are generally not allowed to survive by the strong side in asymetric warfare). That is why genocides such as Rwanda’s or massacres such as Sabra and Chatila do not qualify, although they were targetting civilians, because they were executed by groups overall sympathetic to the government, and not against it. That also suggests that despite your Western-centric point, terrorism is not strictly anti-West: Chinese speak of Uighurs terrorists, Bachar el Assad names all his opponents terrorists, and earlier in history resistants to Nazi Germany were called “terrorists” by the German or its puppets’ governments.
The word sticks because it is not natural to acknowledge the perpetrators as fighting soldiers, since they generally have none of the military attributes, such as uniforms, training, organizations, and hide in the “ennemy” country. They used to be called “spies” in the old days.
There is something unfair in such a pejorative tag considering this is the only form of warfare available to the weak side in asymetric conflicts, but you are wrong to say that the term is malleable to Western interests.
You can thank Jean Cretien for initially starting this debate as it was he who put it on the table after 9/11. The Conservative Government now vehemently defends themselves against it and refuses to give it validity.
It is true that what we sow in fields afar will be reseeded in homeland soil. It is not rocket science. Simply~ cause & effect. Having said that…our nation can not remain uninvolved in many areas of the world that are threatened with political instability, are inundated with crimes against humanity and and are at risk for becoming hotbeds of activity for the extremist despots of international terrorism. What it must do, however, is choose both the colour and the stripe of its’ involvement in any given place on the globe, and strongly advocate more of an intermediary role than that of the aggressor with a well profiled beneficiary status. The public is rarely well educated enough to read between the lines of an international conflict and the subsequent intervention into it, and as such, not able to recognize hegemony underpinned by economic and commerce driven opportunism. And not many laymen are well versed enough in the historical tomes of politically motivated and manipulated international crises or “situations” under the guise of another nation’s flag, that has been rampant since the ending of the Cold War. We are a very naive nation indeed if we believe that strong arm tactics are merited or even of any value at all, against hidden pockets of radicalism and gone near silent terrorists’ musings in a world of global jostling and unilateral complicity in the age old game of playing God with another nation’s fate. Espionage and a statehood’s veil of stealth is an often times a much underestimated and overly criticized tool of choice. It worked for the Brits and Canadians too when besieged with war, and can certainly act as a deterrent in modern times against the enemy you never really knew.
While protecting our home turf and extending a hand to overseas nations in need, we must never forget the wise words of our 20th Prime Minister … ‘In times of conflict and retribution we might well look upon our Foreign Policy decisions of the past’. I know that I never will…forget those frank and fruit bearing words from a man that was most certainly, ahead of his time.
One thing that this article indirectly highlights is the sensitivity of western society to the direct impacts of politically charged violence. In many war torn places the civilians, who are just trying to make a living and prosper like most people around the world, face violence and hardship on a daily basis. Most people in western society are far removed from the direct impact of their governments foreign policy decisions. Regardless of the motives of those decisions it’s clearly uncomfortable when we find ourselves on the other side of the coin. Perhaps the best response to being taken out of our manufactured bubbles once in awhile is to have empathy for those less fortunate and recognize how lucky many of us actually are to live in countries that at least attempt to protect individual freedom.
Mr Greenwald,
You are right about the nature of warfare. If a country is at war, then it should expect violence against its interests worldwide. That explains the multiple security warnings from the US, Canada and many other NATO countries from time to time. However, with regards to your analysis about causation I am tempted to ask you in what war were Argentina, Kenya, and Tanzania involved in the 90s? These are countries that lost hundreds of their citizens due to terrorist attacks on their soil. According to your analysis, these countries should not have been targeted since they were not participating in either US or Israel military operations and they were not even involved in the establishment of US and Israeli foreign policy. Does the causation analysis apply to all sovereign states with diplomatic relation with the USA or Israel? Because if it does, what have we become to let terrorists dictate with what country a sovereign state should establish diplomatic relation. I would also like to know how the causation analysis would apply to Boko Haram, an anti Western terrorist group? You and many others believe that these acts are motivated by
“… namely, anger over the violence, abuse and interference by Western countries in that part of the world, with the world’s Muslims overwhelmingly the targets and victims”
Yet, Boko Haram targets are poor African villagers including kids going to school.
You also state that
“Far from being the by-product of primitive and inscrutable religions, that behavior is the natural reaction of human beings targeted with violence.”
According to that argument, then ISIL should be the target since it is the organization that specifically and proudly targets civilians most of whom are Muslims.
Mr Greenwald, the media is free to state whatever it wishes regarding the definition of terrorism. However, sometimes it is not that complicated to recognize a terrorist act. For instance, an individual who blows himself in the name of Islam in a market packed with civilians buying food for their family is a terrorist. An organization that kill journalists live on TV, massacre POWs and non Muslims is a terrorist organization. So, a debate is not necessary to conclude whether ISIL is a terrorist organization. What is more shocking is that you, not even as a journalist, but as a human being is attempting to suggest that there is something wrong in bombing the barbaric ISIL members. Is your thirst for fame sweeping your common sense?
Well, yes, you goose. I rather imagine the people ISIS is killing defend themselves as best they can, and that some even attack back!!!
Goose??? Anyway, does it bother you that Canada decides to help those who are fighting ISIL?
Exactly who is Canada helping where ISIL is concerned, and what is the nature of the help?
You know the answer to this question is freely available through the Internet, TV news, newspapers, right? Anyway, military help at the request of the elected government of Irak. Again, does it bother you that Canada decides to bomb ISIL?
I have several concerns about Canada’s role in this war as the official plan is almost completely ridiculous. The plan is to still be opposed to Assad’s rule (a dictator no doubt but a man representing a sizable part of the population, I think around 1/3) and his position in Syria (by supporting ‘moderate’ rebels in their war against the regime) through support of the so-called ‘moderate’ rebels (that seem to hardly exist anymore and are now being trained to take on both the Assad regime as well as ISIS) while at the same time opposing ISIS but not supporting the people successfully defending it (Syrian Kurds) because that would defend our ally Turkey.
Canada’s military support so far does look marginal and therefore more for political cover than anything.
But I have to say, I think this is a stupid war but I’m a hell of a lot more outraged at the Muslim fundamentalists and I think it’s telling that so many of Greenwald’s supporters really don’t seem to care about that violence.
I really don’t know, and I’d have to know more details than you’ve seen fit to provide. (I worry about making things even worse, as the West seems so good at doing; none of this would be happening if not for the Iraq War.)
Moreover, that isn’t the topic of Glenn’s post, which is what I’m primarily interested in discussing.
The topic of Mr Greenwald relates to the idea that this type of violence in Canada is due to its participation in wars in Afghanistan and now in Iraq against ISIL. I think my point does relate to the article because Mr. Greenwald is suggesting if Canada or even the US stay on their lanes, do not get involved in the internal politics of these countries, then we should not expect these types of violence. I disagree because again, Kenya, Tanzania, Argentina stayed on their lanes. They do not even have the capability to go beyond their lanes, but yet their citizens got massacred by terrorists. My other concern is that at what point do we step out of our lane. Mr Greenwald carefully avoids that area in his articles. Do we just sit and watch ISIL members take pleasure at massacring civilians because stopping them might result in violence on our soil that is not even remotely similar to their savagery? Yes, a lot can be blamed on the Iraq war. That is why I do not know what President Obama was thinking when he invaded Iraq in 2003!!
Slaughtered by whom more precisely, and for what given reasons?
Mona: There has been considerable violence wrought by Muslim extremists that has nothing to do with Western wars. One example: the case of Salman Rushdie and the several people murdered as a result of that incident.
He also could have used the example of the Kurds that ISIS is committed to slaughtering. They ‘stayed in their lane’ too. Do you really want to ask for clarification on who’s attacked them?
Mona, are you that young? (personal question no need to answer). The US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by Al Qaeda and Egypt’s Islamic Jihad. More than two hundred people died including 12 Americans. The AMIA bombing in Buenos Aires in 1994, 85 people killed. Investigators, prosecutors believe the perpetrators were acting on behalf of Iran or Hezbollah. The Israeli embassy bombing in Buenos Aires in 1992 killing 29 people. Argentina’s judicial authorities blame Hezbollah for the attack.
ISIS draws considerable support from the Sunni Muslim populations it controls. The people who are best fighting ISIS are Shite Muslims (that ISIS openly wants to destroy) and Kurds (that ISIS views as apostates). The original point is a fair one, why are these Western Muslims sympathetic to a group that’s committing historical crimes and so strongly opposed to Western action against ISIS? I have many misgivings about this new war but so far the air war has done some unquestionably good things: like helping to defend a secular, progressive Kurdish force defending their homes and lives in Kobane.
It’s the Islam apologists that oddly enough seem to have the most insulting view of the Muslim world, where Muslims just can’t help themselves but support the worst Islamist groups in the world.
That “the real racists are the ones who”-esque meme really pisses me off. It only works if you see Muslims as a category, not individuals. I don’t actually think that ‘Muslims’ is an entity that I can chat with, have brunch and mimosas with (oh, ha ha, wacky awkward moment, my friend Muslims doesn’t drink!), and commiserate with about my problems (Oh Muslims. Thanks for listening to me whine about that coworker who’s always sniping at me. You’re the best, Muslims.) If that were the case, then yes, I would sit my good pal Muslims down and have a long talk with him/her about how disappointed I am that s/he has decided to join ISIS and how much better s/he can do. As it happens, though, the idea that people who condemn all Muslims for the crimes of some should pat themselves on the back for their benevolent “high expectations” irritates me a lot. Some Muslims are in ISIS. Some are sitting in Afghanistan praying for a visa for their work in saving American lives while we put them through a bureaucratic nightmare of endless waiting while the Taliban kills their dad (just saw the John Oliver show about this, it was heartbreaking). They are, it turns out, more than one person.
The Sunni Muslims in Iraq and Syria don’t really support or even like ISIS, but the Iraqi Shia were even worse. At least, ISIS is allowing them to live, plus is providing a semblance of governance and even humanitarian support. It’s (for them, anyway) a question of the lesser of two evils.
This is bad logic. If Greenwald is saying that A causes B, you don’t refute him by showing that B can occur without A. To say that A causes B is not to say that A is the only cause of B. (So, presumably there were other causes for the terrorist attacks in those countries.)
Except that Greenwald assumes to know what’s driving these attacks while we actually know very little aside from the fact that the attackers are Muslim. In your words it could just as well be that an unknown C caused B. Greenwald though knows that we shouldn’t be surprised that A has caused B.
In fact, if you consider the range of things that have infuriated Islamists in the past like Muhammad cartoons and Western style liberal rights, it could just as well have been that an unknown C caused B.
I’m saying that Steb’s logic is bad, nothing more. Nothing you wrote makes it good.
I disagree. Greenwald’s point is pretty well that only A causes B. He didn’t explicitly say this but what exactly would have been the point of this article if we could fix all the things that he complains about (i.e. ending all war in the Middle East, etc.) and still these people would want to kill us for drawing pictures of their prophet?
Greenwald and his supporters truly believe that it’s our Western actions that are the MAIN driver of Muslim fundamentalist violence. In reality, the ideology that drives these people is a clear and concise one that is overtly aggressive, hateful, and oppressive by its nature. I encourage anyone to actually read ISIS’s magazine Dabiq and disagree.
Actually, I am not presenting a logic. I am just following on Mr Greenwald’s logic, which is very simplistic. Since we “target” them, therefore they target us. So, in order not to be targeted, we have to stay on our lane and not target anybody. That is his clear suggestion. Well, that is exactly what Argentina, Kenya and Tanzania did, they did not bomb anybody but yet their citizens got massacred on their own soil.
One note Steb, it was claimed that Kenya suffered the Westgate mall attack as a result of its military intervention in Somalia. This just reinforces your point though about what exactly can be considered steering out of our lane.
I disagree with many aspects of this war but I can’t see why it would lead to the sort of anger that Greenwald is justifying.
@Brendan
“I disagree. Greenwald’s point is pretty well that only A causes B. He didn’t explicitly say this but what exactly would have been the point of this article”
You realize you are making no sense here? Like you said: He didn’t explicitly say this, because that’s not “the point” of this article.
He didn’t use Kenya or Argentina as an example but rather Canada, he might have had a reason to do that?!
At no point in the article did he claim to have the solution for “peace in the middle east”, neither did he ever claim that Western actions are the MAIN driver for Muslim fundamentalism on a global scale, those are your words not his.
The very basic point of this article being: You can’t be “at war” for over a decade and expect all the violence to stay on the other side of the TV screen. That’s not how “war” actually works and we certainly don’t give that bit of decency (leaving the war out of their homes) to our opposition very often, if at all.
Thank You,
I was referring to terrorists attacks in 90’s in Kenya, Tanzania when Al Qaida members targeted US embassies. I was not referring to the Westgate Mall. Also in Argentina where a Jewish center was bombed. NONE of these countries were involved in any military operations with the US or with Israel. NONE of these countries were participating in the design of US and Israeli foreign policy. Yet, their citizens got murdered by terrorists. What logic do we use to explain this? If we follow Mr. Greenwald’s logic, then the terrorists target the US and other countries because the US is targeting them, even if the other countries did not target the terrorists.
I’m not aware of any evidence that Muslim terrorists have attacked Canada or the U.S. for reason of Muhammed cartoons, or for our scheme of classically liberal rights. I am, however, aware of evidence that our foreign policy vis-a-vis Muslims and their countries infuriates and motivates some Muslims to attack the U.S. Above Glenn links to his older discussion and quotation of this evidence: http://www.salon.com/2009/10/20/terrorism_6/
Well,
Maybe the Muslim terrorists who intended to attack the US for reason of Muhammed cartoons and other free speech related expression could not be successful thanks to US security system. However, you are presenting your point as if the freedom of speech enjoyed in the US is not under attack by Muslims terrorists. That is false. (I am trying to be fair by not even mentioning assassination attempts against European citizens in Europe who strongly criticize and make fun of Islam, since you only want to focus on the US and Canada).
1) Cartoonist Molly Norris went into hiding after multiple death threats including one from Anwar Al Awlaki who states she “should be taken as a prime target of assassination”
2) Zachary Adam Chesser was sentenced to 25 years in jail for different crimes including materiel support to a foreign terrorist organizations (Al Shabaab) and communicating threats to Trey Parker and Matt Stone, South Park creators who depicted the Prophet Muhammad
#2 is just a crime. And both together are less significant than abortionists and clinic staff killed and threatened by “pro-life” Christians in the U.S., who are also criminals.
Foreign terrorists simply are not plotting to attack America based on our freedoms; the evidence show it is overwhelmingly our foreign policy driving this threat.
Read the Looming Tower’s account of the rise of radical Islam. It makes it perfectly clear that the ideological forerunner of modern Islamic terrorism Sayyid Qutb, was in fact heavily offended by the liberal nature of the United States while he stayed there. Osama Bin Laden also lived for a time in the U.S. and drew similar opinions. I don’t really care to go over more evidence than that right now but yes, rejection of Western values is a major part of Muslim fundamentalist ideology.
Yes, because I’m an American concerned with what puts America at risk of terrorism, and the evidence from the U.S. government is that it’s our foreign policy that puts us at risk.
European countries with citizens and residents who significantly threaten others based on speech is no doubt a problem for those European countries, but it isn’t my problem, and I have no evidence about it one way or another.
Yes he was. But that isn’t the reason terrorists give, or the Pentagon finds, for why foreign terrorists attack the U.S.
Mona,
There are less significant because these individuals were not successful. The court, which you consistently believe should determine whether one should be charged and punished, agreed their threats. based on their interpretation of Islam, were serious enough to sent them to jail. Do we have to wait for an individual to be killed in order to state that indeed Muslim terrorists are attacking our liberal rights? I thought we were debating Muslim terrorists. I am ready to debate Christian terrorists as well.
Mona: The point is that defining where the lines can be drawn in our foreign policy to prevent this type of response. It’s really not all that clear. Why again is helping a secular Kurdish force defend their homes and lives against an Islamist onslaught so offensive?
It’s true, if it were possible to totally recede from the Middle East, we would likely see a reduction in the amount of these lone wolf attacks (which are so rare in the first place that it’s really difficult to determine trends). But that would do nothing to stop the violence Muslim fundamentalists are unleashing on other people. Plus, there’s the overwhelmingly backwards and oppressive nature of the Muslim world itself, why should we do nothing about this? And yes, we would also have to stop drawing nasty pictures of their prophet because whether or not their response is considered a crime, we won’t be able to truly protect ourselves otherwise.
Just as courts are right to sentence Christians who threaten and kill abortionists and/or clinic staff, based on their interpretation of Christianity.
But what we do not have is evidence of foreign terrorists targeting the U.S for 9/11-level attacks based on our freedoms. As the Pentagon finds, those foreign terrorists are motivated by our foreign policy.
Or as Malala told President Obama when she was here, our killer drones in Pakistan are breeding terrorism. Oddly, village kids whose families are blown up by a drone tend to think poorly of the country that sent it. I don’t know that they spend a lot of time fuming over our Bill of Rights.
Every time a country is at war it should expect its interest to be attacked. There is no doubt about that. However, your stubborn belief that US foreign policy is the exclusive explanation of Muslim foreign terrorism is wrong. High ranking members of Al Qaeda, high ranking members of ISIL disagree with the Pentagon. Al Qaeda leaders stated many times that their goal is the establishment of a Caliphate. Attacks on Western interests are just part of the struggle.
http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,178412,00.html
Do I need to elaborate more on ISIL? I respectfully disagree with Malala. Misinformed individuals can always have simplistic or distorted views. For instance, many Pakistanis believe that her assassination attempt was a scenario from US agents. The Bill of Rights is not only an American concept. The Taliban did not try to kill her because of the drone attacks. They clearly targeted her because she decided to enjoy her basic Freedom of Speech, which is also included in the Bill of Rights. US foreign policy in the Middle East is just a recruiting tool, not the main reason foreign terrorists attack Western and more importantly non Western targets in countries that have no influence in international politics in the ME. (Mali, Nigeria, Argentina….)
Do Boko Harum(IOW;the west sucks)IsUS,Alciada think they are just as righteous as you and your indignation?Methinks they do,and as we are there and they not here(America),I think they have valid reasons,unlike our totally hypocritical pinkwashing and neolibcon democracy imposition BS.
Blowback sucks to the idiots who created it,and we who said don’t intervene are called out as the culprits,sheesh the total inversion of reality.
I’m sure ISIS supporters are going to love this article.
The USA doesn’t like GG.Why would they love this article?
Mr Greenwald,
You are right about the nature of warfare. If a country is at war, then it should expect violence against its interests worldwide. That explains the multiple security warnings from the US, Canada and many other NATO countries from time to time. However, with regards to your analysis about causation I am tempted to ask you in what war were Argentina, Kenya, and Tanzania involved in the 90s? These are countries that lost hundreds of their citizens due to terrorist attacks on their soil. According to your analysis, a sovereign states with diplomatic relation with the USA or Israel should expect terrorists attacks on their soil even if these sovereign states do participate in either US or Israel military operations and they do not
Is your thirst for fame sweeping your common sense? You are right
Steb, your comment isn’t easily comprehended. In any event, I suggest you read the link Glenn embedded to the Salon piece in which he quotes extensively from a study commissioned of the Defense Science Board by the Pentagon. That study, like others have found, assessed U.S. foreign policy as a leading cause of Muslim terrorism.
SORRY THIS IS NOT THE COMMENT. I HIT THE WRONG BUTTON WHILE USING THE SMARTPHONE.
The proper comment is the one above it.
sped, if you had read this great article with an indepth understand of the 1990’s bombings. You would’ve known the targets were U.S Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. As for Argentina, the targets were Israeli building.
Ovy!
Deaf, dumb, blind.
Read your comment again. You have a sovereign state (Argentina, Kenya) that decides to have relations with many countries such as Israel, USA and Iran, that sends neither money nor weapons to Israel or the Palestinians, but yet terrorists came on its soil, specifically targeted civilian facilities and killed hundreds of its citizens. Yet, you are suggesting that a civilian facility located in a completely neutral country is a valid terrorist target. I understand Mr. Greenwald’s argument that Canadians should not be surprised because their country has been involved in military conflicts abroad, but what is your argument exactly? That the Argentinian parents who lost their children should not be shocked when Hezbollah terrorists blow up their school because????
It’s not ignorance,but hatred that floats steb’s boat.
Yes, I hate terrorists from Al Qaeda and ISIL, you are right about that!!
PLEASE DISREGARD THIS COMMENT. THE PROPER COMMENT IS THE ONE ABOVE IT.
The point is that these terrorist attacks were targeting Americans and Israelis in Argentina etc. The Argentines who died were unfortunate bystanders. The reason they attacked in these countries could be anything from less security to easier visa applications but the point remains they were attempting to hurt America (or Israel ) and the y just didn’t care who else got hurt. Is this clear enough for you steb
This is an intelligent article and I agree with it overall. I like the Noam Chomsky kind of skewering of sacred cows. However, I remind myself when examining my own moral compass on these things that ISIS, in one account, took over a village and summarily executed 700 people, using guns, beheadings and crucifixion. That was just one episode in one town. As much as I agree with the author’s intellectual analysis, I try not lose sight of the fact that the ISIS extremists are truly fiendish people routinely committing mass murder and war crimes.
Stop believing serial liars accounts.The MSM;Serial lies since 48.
Glenn,
First things first:
So your original point was: “Hey Canada, stop being surprised by this — you should have known this was going to happen.”
Yet most of us Canadians have expected some sort of attack on Canadian soil for years now. Our government has based much of its domestic policy on that very thing, suggesting it’s imminent almost every day. Many civilians, albeit mainly conservative, have been laying in wait for Muslim lone soldiers or cells for years now. And barely a week goes by without someone I know suggesting, “you know, our subway system could be attacked any day….”
You conflated shock with surprise. This surprised no one. But we can still be shocked by it Glenn. See the difference?
A couple of other observations from your ill-timed, sanctimonious piece:
First, no mention of Canada taking a stand and staying out of the Iraq war, aka the premier call to arms for jihadists everywhere this past decade. Not sure where we’ve been “a nation at war for 13 years.” We’re about as milquetoast a military power as you’ll ever see.
Second, you avoid the heart of this matter; which is what do we do about these individual head-cases in various basements across the country, radicalized for reasons they themselves have yet to express other than through some vague gibberish about infidels, western imperialists, etc.? You avoid the culpability of groups like ISIS in bringing said lunatics out of their basements and, as always, place 100 percent of the blame on the victims. Inconvenient though they may be to your narrative, the dead guy and his partner two days ago in Quebec were still victims worthy of your empathy.
It’s ironic that you ended your piece with this:
“If one observes that someone who smokes four packs of cigarettes a day can expect to develop emphysema, that’s an observation about causation, not a celebration of the person’s illness…”
For you took three pages to tell us that if we smoke four packs a day, we should expect to get sick.
Now, let’s move to today’s tragedy:
I read your article literally as another Canadian was dying, and as our capital city was in lockdown. Today could have happened in any Canadian city, to any of us. It was quite sobering.
As events of the day drew clearer, your article became more cavalier and smug. Particularly as you failed to draw any distinction between our “warmongering” government, and its largely pacifist, shocked populace – approximately 70 percent of whom, by the way, strenuously oppose that government.
These issues are complex and nuanced. They merit a depth of scrutiny and analysis not present in your overly simplistic “you should have seen it coming” article. You write to fit your starkly shaped world-view, typically presented in as slanted a manner as those you often criticize. You rely on straw men, slippery slopes and hyperbole.
In closing these past few days have been some of the most traumatic to occur on Canadian soil, at least in recent memory. We’re saddened, and we mourn for what we’ve lost.
And, respectfully, right now most of us frankly don’t give a flying f**k what Glenn Greenwald has to say about ANY of this.
Your entire response reads as: ” I’m angry, waah” I think you should probably read the article again when your head has cooled and you are willing to actually take in what is being said. If you don’t care what Glenn has to say then don’t read his article and don’t comment on it.
Furthermore, it sickens me that this is ” the most traumatic to occur on Canadian soil, at least in recent memory”. No mention of the train explosion in Lac or 6 dead babies found in a Winnipeg uhaul locker?
You clearly see this article as justifying not explaining so please go read again
Oh poor Canada!Another heat sink of bogus information and propaganda.WTF happened to the true north,strong and free, now consumed by whiny fearmongers and charlatans?
We most certainly did NOT stay out of the Iraq war. We provided a ton of aid behind the backs of the Canadian public.
This article is so, so, so, so, SO spot on. I was just discussing these very points with my mother this morning. Thank you for articulating them so well and I sincerely hope that people will see the truth in these statements.
I cannot agree more with this article.
Sadly those two acts are taking out of proportion and will be use by Harper government to reinforce and tighten laws on ”terrorism”. In a french news paper, Le Journal de Montréal, they started their article by saying:” This apprentice terrorist…” in reference of Monday’s shooter.Today a reporter quoted a police man:”we will not let ”them” get to us”. Who are ”them” ? the Muslim terrorists ? For what i know, the two attacks where committed by two Canadian whom have both converted to Islam but who looks both like disturbed kids to me, not ”real terrorists”. And as you said, both attacks were committed against military not civilians…
I’d be interested in seeing statistics comparing intentional vehicular murders caused by angry Muslims, and everybody else. Also the same kind for shooting homicides – Muslim related ones, and non Muslim.
Violence is committed by a person when she or he succumbs to the lowest qualities of the self, which are the opposite qualities of the soul (ruh in Arabic).
The more the self yields and connects to the soul, the more it is in peace and reflects the highest.
It is this yielding and connecting, that is referred to as ‘islam’ by the Sufis, or many of them, and is an inner spiritual state.
Not every Muslim is in that state, and there are non-Muslims who are in that state.
When a person unjustly takes another person’s life or harms them in other ways, that person is not in that state at that moment.
And what’s unjustly and justly is thoroughly described in Sufi literature, such as The Journey of the Self, by Shaykh Fadhlalla Haeri.
Oh my God Sufi Muslim, I’m sorry – my comment was just really poorly worded. I didn’t mean to imply that Islam made the Muslim do the murder. In truth, I have no idea what the man’s motives were. Just ignore my really crappily worded comment. And I’m too lazy right now to re-write what I meant to say properly.
Oh and let me help Glenn out. If you say that there is a rational explanation for murder, you are actually justifying murder. You may not say you are. Maybe you don’t even realize it given the canned rhetoric. But like it or not you are trying to divide moral responsibility. You can only meaningfully frame these attacks as a reaction to some offending poilicy if you accept that on some level the reaction is rational. The only way the reaction can be rational, can be posited as a meaningful cause, is if you believe that on some level that morally understandable. Otherwise it would pointless to write an article that these attacks have no rational correlation to the supposed offending policy. Sorry but Mr. Greenwald is attempting to divide morally responsibility for a morally indefensible act. The supposed split between cause and justification is always fallacious in these types of articles. They inevitably overlap into each other.
This thinking seems almost dangerously wrong to me, and it worries me that it’s been invoked so often in response to this article. If you want to make a subjective claim that Glenn was being an insensitive jerk and did not show the proper sympathy when writing this article, sure, fine. But to say it’s ‘wrong’ to attempt to give rational explanations for things – heck, not even just for sensitive topics, just in general strikes me as a troubling kind of collective madness.
Aside from which, if we are sympathetic to a victim’s actions, highlighting that causation makes them more sympathetic, not less. Imagine hearing a news story ‘A man was shot today because he owed someone drug money’ vs. ‘A man was shot today because he was trying to rescue puppies from a puppy mill accused of abusing animals’. ‘Malala was shot for unexplained reasons’ vs. ‘Malala was shot for trying to go to school’.
Glenn does not treat military involvement as a sympathetic reason here, and again, if you think he’s wrong in that, I think that’s fine. If you think he’s simply wrong about the particular cause-effect relationship here, also fine. But what I don’t think is fine is this sudden rule that ‘trying to identify causality in the universe is, in general, wrong and offensive to victims everywhere.’
Nonsense. If a wife has been beaten and battered for years, and she finally snaps and kills her husband, to point out that she may have reached her breaking point does not condone the action. It merely states that some people might be likely to do the same thing, that it is not out of the realm of possibility and might even be understandable. That says nothing about whether it is morally right, unless you believe that what people tend to do is what they ought to do.
Education these days….
Greenwald has always been a hackish buffoon. Yes, Islamist violence is always a reaction to some sort of Western “aggression.” Incredibly cliched theory, and one that encounters difficulty the split second you bother to pay attention to the sheer scope of Islamist violence. Hint: it may be the ideology. Occam’s razor and all that.
But this application of the old standby is truly remarkable. So if we just let ISIS slaughter and behead as they aggressively expand across the region, we will have peace? Very strange conception.
Since you think the “conception” is strange, why did *you make it?
Oh,yeah,Zionism,with its roots in OT ideological racism,is totally nonviolent.Holy moly,the cheap shots by serial killers.
Hide under your bed,they are coming for you!
Wage War for 12 Years, get your ass kicked. No Further Questions. Get saddened by this, “Conservatives”
and let’s be clear: the wars waged by Washington are illegitimate, offensive, and unjust.
See this piece from 12 years ago by John Pilger:
‘War on Terror’ a smokescreen created by the ultimate terrorist, America itself
http://johnpilger.com/articles/-war-on-terror-a-smokescreen-created-by-the-ultimate-terrorist-america-itself
So, pursuant to this writer’s argument, should not then only Afgans and Iraqis want to attack Canadians? Why did two Canadians kill other Canadians? Oh yeah, Islam……
THEIR Islam!
Not mine!
Nor of many, many, many, many Muslims!
Fuck islam and your pedo prophet
Screw you and your Zionist hatred.Nah nah nah nah nah!
I hate Zionists with a passion.
However, it isn’t hard to notice that all the Pakistanis in the UK gang raping young children are proud of it. Community members say that Muslims do not view non-Muslim women as anything other than toys to be used.
It makes sense to refer to Muslims as closet pedophiles, given their behaviour.
Why did Timothy McVeigh (the American) attack his own country? Was it Islam? Or was it in protest of the Waco massacre etc., what he perceived as his nation falling apart?
Of course his actions were wrong, but more importantly, HIS GRIEVANCES DROVE HIM TO KILL.
And this is the point. Wisdom dictates one should eliminate unnecessary grievances in as diplomatic and inclusive a manner as possible. All we’re doing now is (generally) targeting the grievers, the rescuers, the protestors, the frustrated-by-indifference. This is only sane from the elite’s point of view, which is purely and cynically about resource management and population control.
(Disclosure: I am a Zen Buddhist, and only approve violence in strictly self-defense situations.)
I am a Sufi Muslim and I don’t approve any violence. In modern times, even in self-defence non-combatants are harmed.
Humanity needs to find some other way to resolve their conflicts.
Perhaps it’s my martial arts training. The ideal of unconditional pacifism is obviously better morally, and what is perceived as “self-defense” is often mightily ruptured by awful reasoning. The Sufis adore Mansur Al Hallaj, a haunting example of your wisdom. I don’t have that kind of strength at all, I must admit. But I abhor violence, nonetheless.
How would you stop ISIL in Kobane without using force?
ISIL is the monster mutation created by unleashing western military violence in the Arab world. If force hadn’t been used, ISIL wouldn’t noe threatening Kobane. No doubt the new wars caused by the old ones will have equally unpredictable and destructive results.
Well said Cindy. Terrorism’s common denominator within every culture: humiliation.
http://www.humiliationstudies.org/research/terrorismlong.php
Humiliation would seem to drive the terrorism of violent states like America and Israel as well, if only inverted through the cult of dominion.
How well did that work in WWII
Couldn’t have said it better myself
You’re looking for another “I” word. Indoctrinated. Homegrown terrorists are not reacting to injustices wrought upon them, they’re simply lost. Without guidance they were allowed to radicalize, it could’ve been a cult, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, environmentalism, communism, it doesn’t matter. He was lost. A cause found him, and he bought in, completely, now he’s dead, a soldier is dead, and now another 2 people have died. Because we, as a community, failed to give these men guidance.
Mr. Greenwald,
Your assertion that the attack in Quebec is causally linked to our ‘wallowing in war glory’ is asinine. In our community, Victoria, BC – home of our Western Naval fleet – the military is an important part of our daily lives, but no one is blind enough to believe that the men and women in uniform are wallowing in the glory of their duties. Most, if not all, see their roles abroad as being a necessity in dealing with radicals in their own countries.
If you’re really talking about causation, how does the killing of extremists and oppressors on foreign soil cause a guy from Quebec to run down a man in uniform doing errands in Canada? Please draw me the line of causality, because I’m having trouble without using general, emotional rhetoric to make the connection….
I’m curious to hear how you propose we as an international community protect villages of christians, muslims and kurds from the marauding bandits of IS? Do we let them run rough-shod over the region? Do we let extremists gain control of enough resources of consequence that they can coerce compliance?
Nice button pushing!The dogs of war are howling today.
‘we’ have no business interfering in the affairs of sovereign states. Period.
half the problems in the middle east are from british and israeli meddling in that region.
I’m not sure what your point is about Victoria. I have lived there. No one notices the military, to be honest. The bulk of people work in tourism, government or health care. Never met a single sailor in the five years I was there, and I don’t recall anyone ranting about radicals.
The nice part about victoria is that it has not been overrun with horrid third worlders yet.
The Anglo empire’s oligarchs want that Mideast oil, that doesn’t belong to them, and are using military violence to make sure they get it on their own terms, whatever the democratic interests of the people elsewhere to whom it actually belongs. Propaganda is necessary to obscure the reality that violence only begets more violence, contrary to popular media. Those who live by the sword, die by the sword, the clear warning of Jesus Himself. If we want to truly reduce violence, both by non-state actors and governments, we need to stop enabling state violence against faraway peoples to serve elite financial interests. Thirsts for revenge and retaliation are not going to result in liberty, safety, prosperity for the vast majority of us, but will only serve those who make their profits and take their power using violence. The idea that “we are fighting them there so we won’t have to fight them here” is the exact opposite of the reality – it is precisely because of our financialist-driven foreign occupations and wars that we are seeing any blowback at all. There is no correlation between our freedoms here and wars against self-determination for control of natural resources ten thousand miles away, except to end up destroying our freedoms here in the name of war powers. Soldiers from here may well be fighting bravely, but they are not fighting for our freedom, but paradoxically against our freedom. Continuous states of war are not compatible with truth and democratic accountability, concepts once well understood in the West before the idea of forever war was foisted upon us, with so many decisions made in secrecy and using deceit.
The first thing lost in war is truth..
Mark Twain said it well in this piece published after he died.
http://warprayer.org/
Appreciate the courage of the writer to reveal the obvious.
Notice how articles like this are so purposefully vague in the actual background details.
What exactly did ISIS do to deserve these bombings? Greenwald can’t really say because enslavement of women, beheadings, and open genocide aren’t really things that normal people identify with in the first place. Muslim fundamentalists identify with these things because their ideology (which they openly embrace, see their magazine Dabiq) is such a vile one.
Two points:
1. Whenever I see someone use the term ‘Muslim Fundamentalist”, I know they are examining Islam through the thick, dark, glasses of another religious tradition, since fundamentalism in the Islamic context simply means adhering to the fundamental tenets of Islam, and is considered desirable for all Muslims.
2. I do see that A is causing B, but B also in turn is causing A. When one points out the former, one needs to point out the latter as well, to complete the picture.
THIS:
Yes. And some say it about ultra-Orthodox Jews as well. “Fundamentalist” is a Christian-specific phenomenon located primarily (at first) in the early 20th century U.S.
I don’t think that’s a fair assessment. To me, a fundamentalist Muslim, a fundamentalist Christian, a fundamentalist Jew, a fundamentalist Hindu, a fundamentalist Buddhist, are all the same. They’re basically intolerant of others in their behavior. Technically it might mean someone who believes in fundamental tenets, just like technically a Semite is a Middle Easterner. But in our every day usage an anti-Semite means anti-Jewish, and a “fundamentalist” just means a “nut,” whatever the religion.
I can only tell you it drives we students of religion batshit. The term “fundamentalist” comes from an actual list of “fundamentals” compiled c. 1915 by U.S. protestants fighting against modernism, evolution, and rejecting “higher biblical criticism” to insist on, among other things, the inerrancy of the Bible as the literal word of god.
(Moreover, at that time not all fundamentalists were political conservatives. Many, like William Jennings Bryan, were Progressives.)
Well actually I’m an atheist. But I do agree with you in that Muslim fundamentalists are simply ‘adhering to the fundamental tenets of Islam’. Where we seem to disagree is on just what those tenets are.
I’ve read the Quran and I found its message to be perfectly clear: non-Muslims have been made ignorant by Allah and are to burn in hell for eternity for this crime and all of the other religions than Islam are completely wrong. That’s pretty well the main message in the Quran.
Have you read the Hebrew Bible, aka the Christian Old Testament? Do you believe that by doing so you would learn all that the average person needs to know to understand Judaism?
To understand the religion itself, yes. Understanding the different factors behind the beliefs and actions of Muslims worldwide is not a simple task. It’s just enough to say that yes, groups like ISIS are very much motivated by Muslim fundamentalism as they claim just this all the time.
Read the ISIS magazine Dabiq and see if you still disagree with that statement.
In what language would you read the Hebrew Bible in order to learn all you need to know about Judaism? And which version available in that language?
Do you believe the quality of translation matters? If so, how would you determine which version is the best translation?
Do you believe it would be at all necessary to understand the history and culture of the authors and people they are writing about, or is a cold read by the average Jane or Joe sufficient to learn what is necessary to know about Judaism?
There are deeply savage passages in the Hebrew Bible. Would you be right to conclude that Jews are deeply savage?
Yes, Jews who believe in the Torah and Pentateuch are savage. Rabbi Ovid Yosef is a good example of a literalist. If you recall, he is fond of saying that gentiles are cattle to be used to serve Jews. He is dead serious about it.
Better stop reading that terror rag,or expect an NSA visit,terrorist.Or is it freedom fighter?
All the Canadians I know well (admittedly only a few) are deeply saddened by the events of late, but if pressed, to a person they blame what’s happened on the “uptight prig” – I think Sally said prig, it might’ve been another word – Stephen Harper, and his administration’s attempts to be more regressive, authoritarian and “American.” Certainly Harper’s changing the ‘tone’ of the country’s reputation in the world disastrously is paramount in all discussions.
Very true. The look of sheer joy on Harper’s face, in the House of Commons after the killing, was disgusting and disturbing. Even die hard Conservatives that I talked with, were appalled by it. Now there has been another killing, and no doubt Harper will utilize it politically, as he does with everything. This man is destroying our once reasonably decent country as he turns it into Texas North. Hope for the best but prepare for the worst – the man is a classic psychopath.
I was surprised at the whole matter untill when I the person was an Islamic extremist, mainly because of the fact that historically speaking the Middle East isn’t the most same place in the world. The fact that Islamic people are invading another country isn’t surprise at all. Hell they were invading Scandinavian country’s in 800AD because they needed slaves and liked blonde women. Islamic pirates cut off all Mediterranean trading routes, and basically ruined the roman economy. History shows they don’t give a flying fuck about anything. I agree that Canada has a tarnished track record, but compared the Middle East, Canada is golden.
Glenn’s article bring up interesting points regarding the moving-target definition of “terrorism” and what constitutes a terrorist act, but unfortunately he has to resort to clickbait sensationalism to make them. Furthermore, while Glenn quite adamantly points out he is not saying the Quebec incident was justified, the strong undercurrent of this article is that Canada and/or its soldiers somehow deserved the attack – got what was coming to them, so to speak.
I wish I could ‘like’ this comment’. Greenwald can hide behind his qualifying statements all he wants but there’s really no reason for someone to write an article like this if not intending on blaming Canada in some way.
But of course there is. If Canadian (and U.S.) actions in the Middle East generate terrorism — and there is evidence that they do — then this is a fact reasonable people must take into account when determining what our two countries should do moving forward. Westerners are highly — HIGHLY — resistant to this fact of causation, and Greenwald provides a service by compelling them to confront an imperative fact they persist in ignoring.
The thrust of your well composed post is certainly correct and obvious to anyone with a well stamped passport, however I can’t understand why anyone here is surprised by the reactions of the “patriots” at large. Remember what happened to Noam Chomsky when he articulated the same worldly wisdom following the WTC attack? How about Bill Maher? (Yes, he had to make a career change for pointing out precisely the same observation.) A large percentage of Americans cannot abide attacks on their blissful ignorance. Our governments and media bank on it, thus The//Intercept.
Ron Paul pointed out ‘blowback,’ is a reality, too, and got a similar response to Greenwald and Chomsky.
Denying it because it ‘sounds like justification’ is ignoring the fact that it explains rather than justifies.
The latest pair of terrorists also were attempting to kill not just a solider but also Malala Yousafzai. Until yesterday she was on the public schedule to be at Parliament today.
These terrorists and islamacists generally are misogynist in the extreme and that has nothing to do with western policy or intervention in the mess Islam has made of the middle East.
I’m a Muslim, and my Islam, and that of many, many, Muslims, have NOT made any mess of, or in, the Middle East.
Islam is not monolithic. It has many currents within it. Some are bad to evil, most are fair to good, and some are excellent, such as many forms of Sufi Islam.
Search for Kabir Helminski, who is the head of a Sufi Order that is based on the teachings of Rumi, for just one such current.
If you want to see more, search for Shaykh Fadhlalla Haeri, SEYYED Hossein Nasr, Martin Lings (Prince Charles used to meet him to discuss Sufism), Frithjof Schuon, and ibn Arabi.
If these guys do not represent Sufism, why are you constantly defending your faith? I feel that Sufism is the best Islam can offer, but the problem is that I see more posts of how others should not blame Islam rather than blaming the actual terrorists. The fact is that Islam is getting a bad name not because the terrorists are muslim but because these guys find justification of their actions in the Quran(Koran). You guys should be out in droves showing to the terrorists how their interpretation is wrong. You will not do that. You will only play the victim here.
The killing of Kafirs(anyone considered non-muslim by them including Sufis) by Taliban and ISIL(earlier ISIS) is a well known fact. The author is correct in saying that the country should expect such attacks and not be shocked. The barbarians are with us, and they will try to take revenge. We cannot and should not see all Muslims as terrorists, but should not be shocked either if they attack.
Harper is creating the climate for the ‘war’ he so desperately needs to stay in power and drag Canada further down his path. It’s past time to stop the Cons madness and restore this country to one of decent and just values and actions.
barncat writes below:
Glenn’s distinction is valid, for several reasons, as I will show. On Twitter several Sam Harris fanbois are claiming — in light of those who reject Glenn’s claims he’s not arguing justification — that Glenn should now sympathize with Harris who is constantly — and supposedly dishonestly — misunderstood. The reason these Harris apologists are wrong in their comparison also show why Glenn’s distinction between causation and justification is valid.
Glenn is not performing some gratuitous thought experiment, in which for no particular reason, except for malice toward Canada, he could want to force us to consider the causation he argues exists. He is not situated as Harris is when Harris wants to ponder ticking time bombs and torture: Harris does this in order to chip away at Westerner’s rejection of torture; to make it thinkable.
Glenn, by contrast, is pointing to an empirical reality: he links to his older Salon article on the Pentagon study that found exactly the causation he argues is real. It is real, but that fact is greatly resisted as true by many, including by his critics. For the West to refuse to confront an actual cause of violence against it is dangerous; Glenn could have the perfectly moral motive of wishing to drive home to the West that it simply must accept reality — a reality he didn’t bring about.
So. Because: 1. the causation Glenn argues is real, and 2. it is urgent for the West to understand and accept facts that bring violence upon it, his distinction between causation and justification is entirely credible, and even logically irresistible.
Sam Harris, by contrast, engages in unrealistic hypotheticals not to press home a fact, but rather, in order to immorally make torture thinkable and acceptable. His protests of being misunderstood, are, at best, disingenuous. Glenn, however, has the facts and reality squarely on his side.
I won’t dispute the distinction you’re making between Greenwald and Harris. And I agree with your point about the “empirical reality” of the causation that Greenwald is describing. But my argument is simply that the distinction between causation and justification is not obvious, it’s validity (meaningfulness) is not self-evident. Showing that the causation is real does nothing to show that it isn’t also (implicitly) serving as a justification. (The validity of the causation actually has no bearing on the validity of the distinction between causation and justification.)
After the second Update, it’s clearly Greenwald’s position that the distinction is obvious and doesn’t need to be explained. That’s what I’m contesting. In my second comment (below the first one), I explain why his proof-by-example in the first Update fails completely.
I’m not arguing now that the distinction is invalid, just that it’s not obvious. I think it should be explained. Maybe after the explanation is provided, it will seem obvious. That happens sometimes.
I don’t understand the logic of your second step at all.
You say this: <blockquote.And I agree with your point about the “empirical reality” of the causation that Greenwald is describing.
But bizarrely then state this:
It is self-evident as soon as one realizes, as any honest person must, that the causation is real, and in the absence of any argument of justification. All that Greenwald argues is that the causation is a fact, which is not an “ought” argument. It just is. He argues no justification (an “ought”), but rather, explicitly and repeatedly says he is not arguing it.
This is all transparently (self-evidently) so.
In any event, as long as I have established that there is no basis for an honest argument that Greenwald claims justification, even implicitly, I am content to let this topic go.
That’s true.
That’s false. You haven’t come close to addressing my argument. As usual.
Your distinction between Greenwald and Harris has nothing to do with the argument I’m making, however…
This isn’t the correct way to distinguish Harris from Greenwald on the point of justification. Greenwald showed how he would do it in his column on Harris:
So, Harris has been making explicit justifications, simple as that.
Oh no, not re: torture, which was and is my example. He will absolutely insist he is not defending or advocating torture, and so will his fans. Harris writes:
“Thought experiments.” Uh-huh.
But you don’t have to give him that. Greenwald obviously won’t give him that. So, that’s the argument Greenwald would make. Anyway, your point about Harris has absolutely nothing to do with the validity of the distinction between causation and justification.
I’m giving him nothing. Harris claims to be engaged in “thought experiments” about torture, and does not “explicitly” (as you claimed) claim: “Torture is justified.”
I’ve addressed what I felt I should, and am satisfied that I’ve demonstrated my point. That you are not is neither surprising nor worrisome.
Thanks again, Glenn. Spot on.
What is happening right now is very tragic but I don’t believe that they are the actions of an international organization but a group of frustrated individuals. The actions through horrific are not grandiose enough to be part of a big international plan.
These kinds of incidences are unfortunately going to multiply as long as three things continue to happen; the repression of free speech, the eroding of fate in the current democratic system and those meant to uphold it, and the government using the people and resources of the Canadian military to invade other countries enforcing a empirialist agenda. All these actions are at the heart of the Harper government. Does anybody believe these incidences would be occurring if instead of using the military to invade a sovereign nation we used them to bring books and medicine? To me the actions of the Canadian Government since Harper took power are much more terrifying the actions of a few individuals. Under Harper we have seen a corrupt election with the robo-call scandal, the erosion of free expression and an evasion of privacy and security under CSIS. We have over 1500 missing or murdered women and complete indifference on the part of the government and legal system sworn to protect them; this government has no right to take the moral high ground under the name of freedom and democracy, it is them who are truly dangerous.
Of course it is about causation. So when you write that women who are sexually assaulted after they go out and get impaired and flirt in scanty clothing with disgusting men, you can say “what did they expect” and based on your logic throughout this article you will have a valid defense. No?
That would be true if getting impaired and wearing scanty clothing were the cause of sexual assault. But since it’s not the cause, you don’t have a point.
I can’t believe that people still need to have that explained to them.
Charles, are you really equating the idea that violence causes violence in return with the idea that dressing sexy causes violence in return, or does a woman have to dress sexy AND have a couple of cocktails AND flirt all at the same time before they cause the violence committed against them?
Look, a woman is never asking for it, unless she literally asks for it, by you know, saying the words “please assault me sexually right now”.
She can wear what she wants, drink what she wants and flirt ’til the cows come home and never EVER cause sexual violence against herself.
I didn’t say that, Greenwald did. Read the whole post as a whole, don’t just look at one part. Greenwald didn’t say Canada deserved it. He just said we shouldn’t be surprised by it. Who would be surprised if you give a rapist an opportunity to rape that he or she rapes. It doesn’t justify rape, but it explains it. People here are not very good at logic or thinking. If you fool around with a mad dog and he bites you, should you be surprised?
What you apparently still don’t get is that it DOESN’T explain it. The actual explanation for rape is that some men are violent, controlling, dominating pigs, period. You keep implying that the two situations are analogous. The idea that you can only push people so far before they get fed up and strike back is not the same as the idea that women must modify reasonable behavior in order to not tempt a monster to commit an unprovoked crime against them.
Depends on what you mean by explain. My comment is meant to infer that in spite of his denials that he is not trying to justify the response, in fact he is. You are saying that violence begets violence. Not always. Just because you wear a short skirt doesn’t mean everyone will rape you. Just because duo play with a dog doesn’t mean that a dog will bite you. But if you play with a mad dog and you are bitten, you might understand that one of the reasons you were bit was because you played with a mad dog. If you did not play with a mad dog you would not have been bitten. If you did not get drunk and date an ogre, maybe sex would not have ensued. Not all Muslims are violent. Not all violent acts are a consequence of violence. I don’t think wearing scantily glad clothes causes or justifies rape. But there are circumstances where in the absence of the contact in a certain way it would not happen. My point is that Greenwalds argument as little to the debate just like my question does.
Yeah, this always strikes me as an odd point when people say this is an example of causation. “Whew, I was going to hold this woman down and violently rape her but – look at that – she’s wearing a prudish button-up! Hey, look, I’m a rapist, not a monster..” Um, ok.
Malala certainly should have known that her actions in support of girls rights caused her shooting in the head right?
It’s the same argument as Greenwald’s. I think that the real issue most thinking people would have with this nonsense is that the only reason that someone would write something like this is because they wanted to excuse the Muslim violence in some way. Some other statements Greenwald must support:
-People who make drawings of Muhammad should know that their actions caused their murder!
-Muslims should know that converting from Islam is the cause of their death because Islam explicitly demands the death of apostates.
“… Islam explicitly demands the death of apostates.”
——
I’m a Muslim, and my Islam, and that of many other Muslims, does NOT make such demands!
http://www.islamicperspectives.com/Apostasy1.htm
There’s no compulsion! People are free to leave Islam if they want to. As a matter of fact, it’s good for Islam if those who’re not happy with it leave Islam.
This is absolute nonsense. I’d like to see one of Greenwald’s supporters be honest for once and debunk this argument.
Islam very much does demand that apostates be put to death and this is punishment is in fact practiced commonly throughout the Muslim world.
What you’re preaching is some major horsesh*t. You can turn the other cheek, or get an eye for an eye. Similarly, you can kill an apostate, or believe, like Sufi here does, that “there is no compulsion in religion.” Let me tell you one other thing, most Muslims have no idea that you’re supposed to kill apostates. It’s apostates like me who read up on this and then tell my high school buddies “hey, you know you’re supposed to kill me.” And my buddies say “really? no worries, you’re gong to hell anyway.” That’s the extent of my muslim apostate conversations with my classmates. They have no idea they are “supposed” to do anything.
Muslims don’t wake up in the morning thinking, “What am I supposed to do today?” Just like Christians, Jews and Heathens, Muslims wake up and make breakfast. They don’t go around doing all kinds of strange things. They have lunch. Then they take a dump, just like everybody else.
Seriously, you’re talking like you’re 5. Grow out of your paranoia. Boo!
‘Islam’ is a religion and yes, unless you’re of the Reza Aslan school of thinking, religions very much do have a point and message. You should consult the Pew polling on the world’s Muslims to inform yourself [http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/]. I’ll just quote from the study:
” in six of the 20 countries where there are adequate samples for analysis, at least half of those who favor making Islamic law the official law also support executing apostates.
Taking the life of those who abandon Islam is most widely supported in Egypt (86%) and Jordan (82%). Roughly two-thirds who want sharia to be the law of the land also back this penalty in the Palestinian territories (66%).”
Just like all Christians support the idea of stoning disrespectful children, it’s written in the bible and all Christians demand this rule to be applied. That’s how this works, right?
You are not an atheist you are merely a closet racist, hiding behind the banner of anti-theism so you can openly live out your Islamophobia. I’m no fan of any organized religion in particular, i still have to suppress an heavy urge to puke when i see heavily Christian dominated societies point fingers at other religions for their “cruelties”, while ignoring their own problems and history.
George Bush Jr. and Tony Blair both have been quoted saying that “Believe in God” had been among their main motivators for the Iraq invasion, yet it’s only the middle east having problems with religious extremists..
I’ve mentioned it before. If these polls are to be taken seriously, then it would mean that atheists in Egypt and Jordan are being killed every day. Do you actually think that’s happening? If you do, where is the evidence?
Have you ever met a Pentecostal Christian? Ask him/her if they take the Bible literally. An extremely high percentage believe that the Earth is 6000 years old and teach their children the same thing. But even they don’t “kill” children for disobedience, or their neighbors for breaking the Sabbath. Ask yourself what it really means when they say they take the Bible literally. And ask yourself then what it really means that Muslims believe that apostates should be killed. It’s quite similar. It’s not actionable on either side.
And what exactly are you suggesting that should be done to Muslims? Because Muslims believe apostates should die, we should preempt this action and kill all of them?
Again, let me remind you, most Muslims haven’t read the Koran. They don’t know the details in it. Most parents teach their children about God and Mohammad and prayer. They don’t teach their children about who they’re supposed to kill. It just doesn’t happen. Most Muslims are unaware that they’re supposed to kill infidels or apostates. It’s true.
That’s at least a more applicable example, but I have no idea what point you’re making. Would everyone have been better off if that point of causation was left out of Malala’s story? If the news reported “Wow, this poor brave girl was shot in the head but we have absolutely no idea why!. Maybe because the moon was in the House of Scorpio or bad weather or airborne allergens or something, who can say? Well, at any rate, it’s terrible.
She certainly would have known it was possible, which is what makes her so brave. Of course she knew she was risking violence, are you daft? There was, indeed, a cause and effect there.
But, as I imagine Malala herself would not, I do not accept that the foreseeable consequences of her action justifies them.
Glenn’s article, however, has different facts that are not necessarily weighted the same way. He provides evidence that U.S. foreign policy in the ME is a causative factor in Muslim terrorism against the West. But, unlike Malala’s campaign for female education, it is not at all clear that U.S. foreign policy in the ME is justified.
So, as we consider the fact of cause and effect, it may be that we should consider ceasing conduct that isn’t desirable or moral anyway. Once the fact of cause and effect is accepted, that sensible and overdue discussion can take place.
Finally, and ironically, this is what Malala herself has said about U.S. policy causing terrorism:
“I thanked President Obama for the United States’ work in supporting education in Pakistan and Afghanistan and for Syrian refugees,” she said in the statement. “I also expressed my concerns that drone attacks are fueling terrorism. Innocent victims are killed in these acts, and they lead to resentment among the Pakistani people.
She’s as brave as she is sensible and realistic.
The point is to draw attention to the odious nature of this cause and effect type argument that Greenwald is making. One could write the exact same thing about Malala. Aside from Muslim fundamentalists in Pakistan (who have in fact made this argument about Malala) no one in the Western world is doing so.
Why though did Greenwald feel the need to write this if he was not attempting to assign some blame for this violence on our hands?
Muslim fundamentalists are driven to act by many things. One of those things is no doubt war and Western supported dictatorships but there are other drivers of this violence like Muhammad cartoons and Western style liberal rights, both of which have been shown to deeply offend the Muslim world as well.
It is hardly Greenwald’s fault that the fact of causation, the reality he documents, is “odious.” Facts is facts, dude.
Huh? Did you need read what I posted above? Malala herself points out the same reality that Glenn does, and she told it directly to President Obama.
She clearly thought the point important enough to give it time during her brief talk with the President of the United States. And Glenn thinks it important enough to again dedicate a column to the fact.
She was right, and so is Glenn.
Well I can say for sure that this exact same argument has been made about the Muhammad cartoonists, in that ‘if they didn’t want to provoke the wrath of the Muslim world they shouldn’t have done it’.
My inclusion of Malala was just to show the vile lengths to which this line of reasoning can be drawn. And yes, you didn’t say much of anything to dispel that, all you seem to be saying is that Malala had a god cause while the West does not. It’s worth noting too that many in Pakistan are in fact blaming her (this was widely reported on recently).
But the problem is that attacks like these are seen as attacks on the citizens of the country (it was a shooting at parliament) and in Greenwald’s logic, we’re all being made to suffer for the actions of our government…and this should somehow be normal. I don’t really see why we should just expect Muslims to commit wild acts of violence against the Western world in response to the bombing of ISIS.
It’s also the “logic” and factual basis of the Pentagon via the Defense Science Board.
The Bible explicitly demands that parents kill their disobedient children. So? doesn’t mean people who believe in the bible go around killing disobedient children. Similarly, Muslims don’t go around killing apostates, just because it says so somewhere. Where are all the dead apostates that all these Muslims Sam Harris is so afraid of are killing? Stop talking rubbish.
AtheistInChief: You started out making sense, but then made this claim that apostates aren’t killed in Muslim majority societies…because you’ve never heard of these cases?
Where have you been the last few years? There are countless cases of this happening; recent ones too. I believe the most recent high profile case was the Sudanese Christian women sentenced to death for converting from Islam. And you call yourself an atheist?
The morals found in the Old Testament are horrible. I’ve never understood why the Islam apologists make this point though because it doesn’t actually defend Islam, it just says ‘look, those people are bad too!’. Even if we assume all religions to be equally dangerous the simple fact that practicing Muslims are far more numerous and dedicated to their religion worldwide than the other monotheistic religions is reason enough to explain why there’s such a problem in the Muslim world today.
Of course I’ve heard of these cases. I’m a Muslim apostate myself. But when Harris and his ilk say 60% of Egyptians believe this, it’s just nonsense. If people believed something deeply enough to be motivated by it, there would be more dead apostates. Just like atheists anywhere, a certain percentage of Muslims are also atheists. We grow out of it early, or we grow out of it late, but a certain percentage of us, grow out of it, whether it is Christianity, Judaism, or Islam. But that percentage of Muslims aren’t being killed everyday. It might very well be that in Saudi Arabia, you can’t publicly state that you’re an apostate. But the families and friends of most atheists in most countries know that they’re atheists. Nobody is hunting them down. This threat exists to this devastating extent, in Sam Harris’ addled brain.
Of course no atheist should be killed. But just because Saudi Arabia, or a mob in Pakistan behaves irrationally, doesn’t mean the average Muslim wakes up every day with a religious agenda. They go to work. They feed their children. They do the same stuff everybody else does.
What you have in your head is a giant conspiracy, where every Muslim is walking around with an agenda. It’s ridiculous. It’s crazy. It’s the basis of irrational behavior. It’s “fundamentalist.”
In order to call myself an atheist, I have to believe what? that Muslims are awful? compared to whom? and why?
I’m not an Islam apologist. You’re claiming that the morals in the old testament are horrible. You’re not claiming that Christians are killing disobedient children. And like you, I’m claiming that the morals in the Koran are horrible also. But you’re claiming that Muslims are going around killing apostates, which is patently absurd. Just because Ray Rice hits his kid with a switch, doesn’t mean you call it Christian discipline. But when an apostate is killed by nuts in Saudi Arabia, you call it Muslim Justice.
You’re not being sensitive to the idea that Islamophobia exists. Harris has an agenda, and it is not positive. He clearly doesn’t advocate handshakes with Muslims.
Yes, he does. So do I. What, is there some sort of membership requirement we need to know about having to do with opinions on Muslim apostate law?
“Even if we assume all religions to be equally dangerous”
All religions ARE equally dangerous, anybody with even the slightest bit of knowledge about history knows that much.
“the simple fact that practicing Muslims are far more numerous and dedicated to their religion worldwide than the other monotheistic religions is reason enough to explain why there’s such a problem in the Muslim world today.”
What is it now? The “muslim world” or “worldwide”? Afaik the biggest major monotheistic religion on this planet is Christianity, having a nearly 10% lead on Muslim believers. Evangelicalism is a real thing and one of the other major factors why we are seeing so much violence in countries like Africa, where Christian Evangelicalism is slowly creeping up on North African countries, which have traditionally been Muslim dominated.
In the Evangelized areas pastors are encouraging children to accuse their elders of witchcraft, leading to these people being burned alive. Look up the Liberty Foundation Gospel Ministries for example, these are not made up stories, even today people are getting burned alive and stigmatized in the name of the bible.
This is as much about Christianity as it’s about Islam, none of these two things exist in an vacuum isolated from each other.
For some reason this comment thread has become much more loaded with extremely repulsive individuals than most comment threads that I’ve seen here, such as this individual who takes no responsibility for rape — ( “what did they expect”).
Well that is pretty well the tone of Greenwald’s article: ‘well what did that dead soldier really expect, his army is bombing ISIS, did he not think that this would anger Muslims’.
So you’re comparing women being raped should expect it if they go out in public, to a soldier being killed because the country they are from is bombing some other country.
No. I wonder if Greenwald is doing the equating. I just asked a question. Brendan’s question is a valid question. Put another way without the inflammatory rape analogy which was designed to illicit responses, the questions is, because we do something risky, and that risk results in harm to us, what is the point of pointing that out. If that is all Greenwald is trying to say, what is the point. That cause and effect relationship is obvious. Greenwald is correct. It is not shocking that people we fight fight with us. But my guess is that that is not all that Greenwald is trying to point out. My guess is that he is trying to say exactly what he denies.
Glenn explains in detail and links to evidence for his details, but, what the fuck, your “guess” trumps all of that. So should we bother continuing with this discussion beyond your “guess?”
Regarding Kitt’s last comment at 10:38:
but, what the fuck, your “guess” trumps all of that. – Kitt
Normally such trash talk doesn’t warrant a reply. Suffice to say that if Greenwald had been clear as opposed to internally inconsistent and illogical, this discussion would not be occurring and one would not have to “guess” what he was trying to say with such verbosity. His very clear and agreeable statement that it should not shock anyone that people who fight with each other will fight with each other is no great or significant observation and I am not sure what great intellectual advance flows from such. Maybe Kitt can enlighten us with some more further cogent eloquence.
You’re saying that Glenn’s article was not clear to you. You had to “guess.” But, you see, I’m not having that problem, and neither are some great number of others who have read it. So extrapolating your inability or refusal to understand the article doesn’t mean shit to anyone but you. Also, “trash talk” could be defined as someone who chooses to misconstrue what someone else has written or said, and then comment on it as if their take or so called “guess” on it is factual.. My comment to you didn’t do that. You said you were guessing. I scoffed at your inability to comprehend. So be it.
Kitt:
You still don’t address the issue. The “guessing” stuff is just obfuscation. The issue is and the point of this line of discussion:
Put another way without the inflammatory rape analogy which was designed to illicit responses, the questions is, because we do something risky, and that risk results in harm to us, what is the point of pointing that out. If that is all Greenwald is trying to say, what is the point. That cause and effect relationship is obvious. Greenwald is correct. It is not shocking that people we fight fight with us.
His article is not clear. If it isn’t about justification, why all the talk about what is wrong with Canada’s response.
My first thought as I was reading this is that, from my own experience, drivers don’t have very much patience for j-walkers in Montreal. Cars often speed up as pedestrians approach the curb to cross against a signal. A great city though.
Oh, and one more thing: I have to respectfully correct one point:
“very few people would view attacks on soldiers in a shopping mall parking lot to be justified”. Depends on what you mean by “very few”:
https://news.yahoo.com/one-killed-three-wounded-shelling-east-ukraine-173637483.html
I didn’t hear a lot of complaints after that incident.
As William Boardman said ” The US without war is like apple pie without apples”. I guess you could apply this, somewhat altered perhaps to maple syrup- to Canada just the same.. Hooray for the MIC.
Thanks GG for another great piece!
I would suggest that a simple analogy might help make the distinction between causation and justification clear. Even if the dictionary definition of these terms could be debated until the cows come home, the real point is to make clear what you were trying to say. Here’s my example:
Scenario: A married couple has a dysfunctional relationship and the woman chooses to have an affair. When her spouse finds out he reacts by physically attacking and injuring her. You could say that the causation of the attack (the event that precipitated it) was the woman’s actions. But you would not say that the attach was justified by her actions.
I know the two terms aren’t always that clearly distinct, but it seems to me that in this article the word “justification” implies a moral judgement of right vs. wrong, valid vs. not valid. The word causation is an attempt to focus more impartially on where there might be linkages between certain events or actions.
I see a difference between “justification” “causation” and “motivation”. If Glenn stuck with “motivation” I think there would be less of a problem. But “causation” suggests the responsible party is the one who created the causation. In your scenario, I wouldn’t say the wife caused her own demise by having an affair. I would say that anger over the affair was her husbands motivation.
I wouldn’t suggest, as you have, that one should “stick to” one descriptive word which does not describe what one is describing in order to appease those who are either in denial or are being dishonest about what one is describing. If others disagree with what is being described, that’s their choice for whatever their reasons are. But it would be cowardly and dishonest to go along with it just for the sake of, “there would be less of a problem.”
Just two points: 1) how does Mr. Greenwald by any stretch know what was going on in the shooter’s mind, and that somehow it was “caused” by 13 years of war? 2) governments do also call acts by right wingers, survivalists, what have you, against the state (eg.,, Oklahoma bombing in 1994) acts of “terrorism.” Those are also acts of violence against that the state doesn’t like, and which by the way, its propagators feel totally justified (sorry, “caused”) by whatever political agenda they may have. So I guess the state just has it coming for oppressing them too. If we are going to apply moral relativism/more equivalence arguments, we might as well be consistent.
Greenwald may not know or care that the Canadian soldier killed by Couture-Rouleau was Patrice Vincent: http://i.cbc.ca/1.2807981.1413924072!/fileImage/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/original_300/patrice-vincent-victim-st-jean-sur-richlieu-hit-and-run.jpg
You have to admit the timing for this article is sublime. I lived in DC for 13 years and I’d like to thank Harper for making me feel like I never left.
Look at the fact that both Harper and Ted Cruz are from Alberta and this all makes perfect sense. Not only is that province a de facto American state but it also produces de facto Americans. Plus it’s basically a Koch colony with heavy Kuwaiti investment…but I’m sure the recent urge to reinvade Iraq is a coincidence.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/03/20/the-biggest-land-owner-in-canadas-oil-sands-isnt-exxon-mobil-or-conoco-phillips-its-the-koch-brothers/
(Sorry for seeming to go wildly off topic…trust me, I’m not.)
So right, Glenn Greenwald! All of the stops have been pulled out on the propaganda, and the propagandizing of the public, so they will support the endless terrorism perpetrated by their own Western governments in an orgy of mass-murder that knows no bounds. So they will believe the lie(s) that they are simply surrounded by senseless radicalized religious fanatics who “hate them for the their freedoms”. And so they won’t look at the real facts that, no, it is because of the senseless mass-murder of mostly innocent civilians that fuels the desire for revenge in people who don’t hate freedom(s), but hate the mass-terrorism being rained down upon huge numbers of mostly defenseless non-combatants (thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands; and, eventually, millions once the toll has been added up after years of such bloodbaths are inflicted that supposedly “aren’t” terrorism—nevermind that millions of the maimed and/or psychologically-tormented survivors have been brutally terrorized by it all).
Then the propaganda is also ratcheted up to “justify”, “legitimize”, “excuse”, rationalize, gain public support for, and bring about the militarization of the entirety of those Western countries, and the elimination of True Liberty and Freedom in them, in response to a few incidents of blowback (totally understandable responses to the mass-terrorism constantly and perpetually perpetrated by the governments of those Western countries in the names of their people).
In other words, according to the propaganda only small numbers of senseless murders qualify as “real” terrorism; and the massacre, or mass-slaughter, of vast numbers of mostly innocent civilians, the terrifying displacement, and the horrifying psychological toll visited upon the survivors of same, is supposedly “not” terrorism at all, but what those people “deserve” in collective punishment (a war crime) for their not being able to stop a relatively small number, compared to the total number of their population anyway, of “extremists” bent on revenge for all of same that is completely understandable considering the hell on earth that they and their people have been subjected to. (Heck, if such was inflicted upon us, we would be bent on revenge, too. In fact, we already are, for an event, 9-11, that was far less severe than the much larger mass-carnage that Western “civilization” has poured down upon the alleged perpetrators of 9-11, most of whom had absolutely nothing to do with perpetrating it.)
And then, according to the propaganda that allegedly “justifies” the militarization and locking down of the whole of our Western societies, and eradication of most if not all of our True Liberty, Freedom, Privacy, Peace, Justice, Security and Dignity, is a price supposedly “worth paying” for our own so-called “protection” and “safety”. Nevermind that it isn’t really about protecting and keeping us safe, but about controlling us at virtually every turn, keeping us unquestioningly-obedient servants of tyrannical government (the total opposite of True Freedom and Liberty), making sure that we don’t secure True Liberty and Freedom (putting the tyrants out of the job of oppressing and repressing us, and keeping us “in our place” without anymore enjoyment of True Freedom and Liberty), and keeping us blind supporters of the endless tyranny, oppression, deprivation, and mass- terrorism and repression, or at least unresistingly-resigned to it. In other words, making and keeping us slaves, and keeping us enslaved to absolute despotism.
It’s working like a charm, too; because most of the “Amerikan” people, and most of the people of the other Western societies, are already cowed and unquestioningly-obedient “sheople” who blindly support their own subjugation and enslavement, and the mass-terrorizing of the world for global empire, hegemony, submission and domination; in other words, the destruction and demise of all True Liberty, Freedom, Privacy, Peace, Justice, Security and Dignity; the very definition of terrorism.
Get a grip Mr Greenwald. Canada has not “spent the last 13 years proclaiming itself a nation at war.” Because the country was not. See the timelines here at the Canadian Defence & Foreign Affairs Institute’s “3Ds Blog”:
“Afghanistan and Fact-Challenged Canadian Media”
http://cdfai3ds.wordpress.com/2014/03/24/mark-collins-afghanistan-and-fact-challenged-canadian-media/
Joining our media? By the way it was Liberal governments, under PM Chretien and then Martin, that committed the Canadian Forces to their two combat missions, both at Kandahar–the first for just six months in 2002 and the second ending in 2011, over three years ago.
Mark Collins
Let’s just suppose for a brief moment that the solider that was “mowed down” was a family member of yours. Would then the definition matter? Yes innocent lives have been lost during war, but would we have to worry about those extremists in our country if that was not to take place? We live in a “free” country because of the men and women that protect us everyday.when we have a country that is more than willing to take in refugees of war torn countries and start them with a new life here in Canada.a woman suing our Canadian govt because she refuses to remove her “scarf” during her swearing in as a Canadian citizen that is allowing her to change our constitution. They are in Canada now and should follow our laws as we have been taught. Kudo’s to those that call it terrorism because that’s exactly what it is”putting terror and fear” into those of us who were born raised and taught here.” My condolences to the families of this soldier as well as all the other families and members who give their lives every day to keep us safe. I THANK YOU.
One more point, if I am upset because of someone hurting the people in my family or country, should I therefore take my car and run them over? No, they need to get help to control the terror in their mind that has taken over them!
This article would be 100% truth if we were talking about countries who weren’t terrorizing their own people before we even set foot there. I don’t have a conservative bone in my body, but extremist islam is a danger to modern civilized society. How far does it have to reach before we’re allowed to say that outloud?
Extremism is a danger to modern civilized society. Extremist Islam isn’t especially dangerous compared to other forms of extremism. Exaggerating the threat of extremist Islam is a convenient excuse for war crimes — that’s the real threat to modern civilized society.
It does not surprise me at all if this mornings attack on parliament hill after yesterday announcing the deployment of CF 18s to Iraq. How can we as a country embrace any form of terrorism or counter terroristic measures. Wrong is wrong no matter how you look at it.
But as a nation do we sit by idly while these people invade our communities our workplaces and our childrens place of education?
It is a tough call but we are a country at war and always have been….Why the perception of the Canadian people is being swayed by lies deception and political corruption. So what is the answer does anyone have a conscience anymore?
“The issue here is not justification (very few people would view attacks on soldiers in a shopping mall parking lot to be justified). The issue is causation.” If there’s a way to make that any clearer, please let me know.” – Glenn greenwald
Causation (legal Def): The “causal relationship between conduct and result.”
Alleged conduct: Striking two soldiers with a car with the intent of causing bodily harm and/or death.
Motive: Identification with radical Islam (ISIS)
Factual causation: Did Martin Couture-Rouleau strike two soldiers with his vehicle? Answer: Yet to be proven.
Legal causation (proximate cause): Did Martin Couture-Rouleau strike two soldiers with his vehicle with the foreseeable intent of causing bodily harm and/or death?
Answer: Yet to be proven.
This is a classic example of a false dilemma wherein the reader is being asked to summarily accept facts not in evidence for the purpose of choosing between two competing perspectives that, in absence of said evidence, are nothing more than informal fallacies.
Is that clear enough for you?
This reply is a classic example of obfuscation. The point about evidence and proven facts is irrelevant to the point being made in the article.
Wilhelmina: Glenn is not referring to or discussing legal causation. Hi article is not about whether the soldier’s estate has a cause of action for wrongful death.
His argument is as simple as this: If 5-yr-old Pete hits 5-yr-old Jane, Jane is pretty likely to respond in kind. Pete should not be surprised if and when she does. (Pete and Jane are in a sandbox, not a court of law.)
“Wilhelmina: Glenn is not referring to or discussing legal causation.” -Mona
In taking exception to the manner in which the “right wing” of the Canadian government is misappropriating terms (e.g. terrorism) to further advance its political agenda, Glenn Greenwald has chosen to respond with an equally false presumption of fact to advance his own self-serving theory of foreseeable causation:
“…it’s not the slightest bit surprising or difficult to understand why people who identify with those on the other end of Canadian bombs and bullets would decide to attack the military responsible for that violence.” – Glenn Greenwald
In the doing, Glenn Greenwald has adopted, and thus advanced, the unsubstantiated core assumptions of those to whom he allegedly takes exception:
1. A person identified as Martin Couture-Rouleau struck two soldiers with his vehicle,
2. A person identified as Martin Couture-Rouleau struck two soldiers with his vehicle with the intent of causing foreseeable bodily harm and/or death, and
3. A person identified as Martin Couture-Rouleau struck two soldiers with his vehicle with the intent of causing foreseeable bodily harm and/or death in service to extreme Islamic beliefs akin to those of ISIS.
Absent these assumptions, the debate between causation and justification becomes moot. I suppose that I should be happy however as the counter-narrative of “foreseeable consequence” is a huge step forward for Glenn who has traditionally relied on the theory of blowback to explain Islamic terror attacks against the U.S. and its allies.
Blowback (def): The unintended consequences of a covert operation that are suffered by the aggressor. (Wikipedia).
If covert actions taken by the U.S. and its allies have the foreseeable consequence of inciting the type of Islamic extremism that manifests as terror, then the WTC attacks of 911 can no longer be characterized as blowback. Rather, they are more accurately understood as the type of induced violent behavior that provides the necessary moral and legal justification for the global war on terror.
Sandbox tactics 101!
No, he hasn’t “adopted” any such thing. In a perfectly common and acceptable manner he relied on Canadian newspaper accounts, and also qualified his discussion by saying : “If one believes the government’s accounts of the incident…”
The length and, uh, density of your commentary doesn’t change the fact that you are, once again, engaged in blowing smoke out your ass for no reason other than you have an irrational animus against Glenn Greenwald.
This is a good time to remind everyone that Pedinska recently & brilliantly diagnosed your bitter and destructive neuroses: https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/10/10/narrative-destroyed-edward-snowdens-girlfriend-lindsay-mills-moved-moscow-live/#comment-82059
No, he hasn’t “adopted” any such thing. In a perfectly common and acceptable manner he relied on Canadian newspaper accounts, and also qualified his discussion by saying : “If one believes the government’s accounts of the incident…” – Mona
The newspaper account is an exact reflection of the government’s account. Thus Glenn Greenwald has has adopted, and thus advanced, the unsubstantiated core assumptions of those to whom he allegedly takes exception.
I always know when you are throwing in the towel when you:
1. feel the need to appeal to others (Pedinska) for support,
2. engage in personal attacks,
3. fail to provide a substantial counterpoint to my logical, fact based position, and
4. use sockpuppets to bookend your own commentary with the intent of garnering the illusion that your lame rebuttals warrant merit.
Sandbox indeed!
There is one distinct difference between how Canadian Soldiers are fighting in Afganistan and Iraq and the terrorist attack here. The Canadian soldier in Afganistan wore uniforms denoting that they are soldiers. Part of what make these terrorist attacks jarring is that the perpetrators are people with Canadian citizenships in street clothes that randomly pull out weapons and open fire on a ceremonial honour guard (carrying unloaded weapons) at the tomb of the unknown soldier.
I don’t think anyone is shocked that, for lack of a better term, terrorists are targeting Canada. I think there is more shock that something actually occurred. How can you not be shocked when you can’t remember the last time something like this happened?
In my understanding of Islam and its various currents, which are based on their own interpretations of the primary and secondary sources of Islam, and its history, I am of the opinion that these people’s religious paths are also a huge CAUSE for their violent behaviour.
One way to look at it is this:
1. They have their own interpretation of the term and the doctrine of Jihad.
2. Jihad is considered a noble activity by them.
3. They believe that if they die while carrying out Jihad, they will go straight to Paradise. This gives them the guarantee for Paradise that they look for. Otherwise, they feel that their entrance to Paradise is not certain.
4. So, they are glad that there’s an opportunity for them to carry out violence, and call it Jihad. And if they die doing it, that’s the best case scenario for them.
Perhaps, some of those who criticize Glenn and TI feel that he and TI do not emphasize the role of the Islam of these evildoers enough, not simply as a motivator, but also as A CAUSE.
There have always been individuals and groups within the universe of Islam who look for opportunities to carry out violence, call it Jihad, and die so they are guaranteed Paradise.
Violent men will always use religion as a means to justify their violence. Simply look at the Christians in CAR or the Buddhists in Myanmar for proof that the idea of Islam being inherently more violent than any other religion is little more than naivete at best, and bigotry at worst.
I was blaming certain currents within Islam, which is not monolithic, and pointing out that THEIR religious beliefs are also a cause, beliefs that other Muslims don’t share, and are actually opposed to them.
I concur Sufi Muslim, meanwhile passing this along to you:
http://www.kaminskiauctions.com/servlet/Search.do?auctionId=42
Thanks,
I’ve seen some of those.
So Heffe3737 you should add up the one case of Christian violence you’ve provided in CAR (a conflict which also involves Muslims) and compare to all the different acts of violence and oppression being carried out by Muslims worldwide, do you actually believe there to be parity? Do you really believe that there’s not a disproportionate problem with violence and all sorts of regressive politics in the Islamic world?
Brendan: I believe strongly that you’ll find a far closer link to violence in countries where there is oppression from tyrannical governments, quality public education is lacking or non-existent, and where poverty is excessive than in any causal relationship to religion.
Also, are we talking about violence in general, or terrorism specifically? If violence in general, I’d say you’ll be hard pressed to prove that there is more violent crime in the middle east than in other countries. Terrorism wise, it really depends on what you classify as terrorism, and what’s classified as religious terrorism. The attacks in Norway in 2011 were supposedly Christian-related, but people are less likely to refer to that as Christian Terrorism than they would the recent Canadian attacks.
It’s left wing fucks like this the world should be worried about… Islamists and leftists go hand and hand. Both evil.
Yep, everybody outside your fact free bubble is evil ! Because they are trying to pop it with really sharp facts.
This is vintage Glenn – at his absolute best! Great article.
Well, I think this is a scenario where we have to hope for the best in sorting out people’s true motivations when problem solving. Attacks by Islamic extremists are clearly an ill and a cause of suffering. To the degree that we really want to solve this problem, everyone will be on the same page. In situations like this, people jump in and start hypothesizing with “It’s religion”, “It’s blowback”, “It’s unequal resources in the world”, “It’s lack of education in a tribal culture”, etc. That’s fine, the first step in any such situation is forming a hypothesis, after all. But after that it becomes about going where the evidence leads.
If what we want, as a culture, is to solve these problems, that shouldn’t be an issue. What does it matter if the evidence doesn’t line up with our personal pet theory, it’s still valuable information in solving the problem, and therefore a good thing, after all. My hope is that we can move in this direction and it’s not subverted by any group’s desire to simply be ‘right’. That is an extraordinarily powerful motivator in human behavior, after all, and difficult to change once entrenched. But when people are dying, brutal honesty about what is causing these problems and how to solve them should transcend our personal biases, I think. My understanding is that, when these issues have actually been studied in something like an academic sense, terrorism (or whatever you want to call it) is generally about using violence in an attempt to fight against a perceived injustice. What I haven’t seen much info on is what exactly the ‘injustice’ is. Some people would no doubt say it’s that the whole world isn’t living under Sharia law; some would say it’s because of military aggression. Scott Atran seems to go with something like ‘social glory’, which doesn’t fit into either category. Regardless, I think this is a good time to reaffirm a “wherever the evidence leads” attitude. Again, when people are being run down in the street, it’s the least we can do.
This is vintage Glenn – at his best! Great article.
the Article on Blackwater should give a little indication of why this is happening. How many innocent “civilians” were killed by western militaries without any justice. What does one expect now?
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/10/22/blackwater-guilty-verdicts/
In light of all your research and discussion regarding this matter as it pertains to terrorists or terrorism, you are forgetting one important fact. Our current administration, here in the USA, under the leadership of Barack Hussein Obama, prefers not to use words and or phrases , like terrorists, terrorism, and or terrorist attacks. This administration prefers to coin phrases like violence or violence in the workplace. Maybe you haven’t heard but according to Barack there is no more terrorism or terrorist threat so how could or should it be suspected and/or deserved. It doesn’t even exist!
Glenn, you have it in bold print but may if you went a few fonts bigger it would even stick out more. I don’t really think that it would change anything but, who knows?
Maybe even underline it and make it bright red?
How about neon lights?
Blinking neon lights.
How about neon lights?
There’s html code for that?? ;-}
How about italics
or >emem<
this is a test
Look at how many times Greenwald has to obsess over the fact that he is not justifying it. People are just scared of going against the conventional wisdom in the West. No commentator has a problem in justifying Israeli killing of 250 children. But a uniformed soldier is killed and you must obsesses over the fact that you are not justifying it.
Not at all true. I won’t bother with a list but it should be enough to say to you that the commentator/author of this piece, Greenwald, doesn’t justify Israel killing of children. Noam Chomsky doesn’t. And there is a long list of others who also don’t. But as I said, point made without posting a list. I personally came across a constant, nearly nonstop list as I read everyday and night on twitter during Israel’s latest series of war crimes.
I was just blocks away when this happened. I raced to The Hill and arrived to find chaos, fear, confusion, cops pouring in like ants. Stupid people standing in the street in a clear line of fire from the hill. Entire downtown is locked down, including my wife. Police still looking for shooters. Trying to clear high rises room by room. Smashing into locked rooms. I got some crappy cell phone pics of the intial response. Heading to the hill now with my big cameras.
Take care. Please don’t get caught in the middle of the violence.
Bill, I thought of you right away. Stay safe. Is there a way for you to share your photos here?– MM
Thanks, I am fine. I didn’t really get any good shots. If I had had my good camera, I would have had guys running with assault rifles that sort of thing. Right now they have moved the perimeter back several blocks. I could not get any where close to the hill. Cops everywhere, some with HK assault rifles. Saw one armored vehicle, probably escorting Harper. Parliament Hill is still locked down, people inside and can’t get out.
If I have anything interesting I will post it somewhere. But I got nothing of any real interest.
I am posting a series of images on my timeline on Twitter. @Bill_Owen I got some ok ones after all.
Hope things have settled down a bit by now. Was very worried about you when I finally saw what was happening.
Hope you all can get a good night’s rest after this. The next few days are going to be very busy for you!
There’s something extra ironic about an openly gay white man sympathizing with the most savage, barbaric, Islamic extremists.
Canada appears to be blocking The Intercept… I am using a proxy to make this comment.
Nope, Colin. I’m in Canada and posting at The Intercept. No problem.
Appreciating this article and wishing we didn’t have to put up with Harper for one more minute let alone one more year. Dear god, it better not be more than one year!!!!!!!
Glenn Greenwald: […] I know from experience you can’t make this causation argument w/o people insisting it’s justification
Right, even though you explicitly state that “The issue is causation. … The issue here is not justification,” a significant number of readers still insist that you are justifying, and it happens every time. I wonder if you’ve considered why this might be true. It’s not poor reading comprehension; these people are choosing to reject the distinction you’re making. I’m not taking a position on this now, but this is true: just because one makes a distinction doesn’t mean that it must be accepted as meaningful. You have always considered it enough to simply invoke the distinction as self-evidently valid. But, it’s not self-evident. That much should be clear by now.
With human behavior, the question is always responsibility. In the case at hand, if Canada has, to some degree, caused the attack, doesn’t that imply that it bears some responsibility for the attack? Are you not responsible for the events that you cause? If the attacker were completely relieved of responsibility for the attack – if full responsibility were assigned to Canada – that would seem to be functionally equivalent to a “justification” as it would render the attacker blameless (not guilty). And if that’s granted, it’s enough to establish a connection between causation and justification.
(What happens to the distinction if “responsibility” is substituted for “causation”? “The issue is responsibility. The issue here is not justification.”)
That’s just the beginning of one possible argument. My point here is that the validity of the distinction between causation and justification is not self-evident.
Exceptionally well said.
Thank you.
From the Update:
That example doesn’t work at all. What is being caused is a physiological process, not the freely chosen action of a human being. There is only one individual making one choice (to smoke). In all the cases you’re writing about, there is a group of people (e.g., Canada) freely choosing to commit violence thereby causing reciprocal violence that is freely chosen by another group or individual (e.g., Couture-Rouleau).
The distinction between “causation” and “justification”, as you are using it, is not obvious.
>> a significant number of readers still insist that you are justifying, and it happens every time. I wonder if you’ve considered why this might be true.
I see two major reasons:
1) Some people are just not intelligent enough to make the distinction. I know this sounds horrible, but I have debated some things with some people before, and they just jump to wrong conclusions, and I have to spell it out again a second time in no uncertain terms.
2) Straw man. Some people don’t want to accept any responsibility whatsoever that our foreign policy might play a part in causing terrorists to attack us. They want to make it seem that terrorists are somehow inherently “evil”, and it is this evil that is responsible for terrorism. Once you logically argue your case, these people are cornered – they cannot dismiss your point logically, so they simply resort to things like straw men arguments and ad hominem.
Well said. Few people are honest enough with themselves to want to take responsibility for the consequences of their own deplorable actions. No one, and therefore no nation, wants to envision itself as capable of evil acts. Particularly when it comes to individuals being forced to accept a modicum of responsibility for the actions of their government, whom they may or may not have voted for.
Hey now, even the nazis believed they were doing good in the world. (Apologies for violating Godwin’s Law)
Any definition of terrorism usually contains wording to the effect that it’s the use of violence to achieve a political goal. So if someone doesn’t see the distinction between causation and justification, ask the following questions:
Does this group have a political goal?
No – then they are not terrorists (by definition)
Yes – then…
Is it justified to use violence to achieve this goal?
No – then there must be a distinction between causation and justification.
Yes – then you are speaking with a terrorist – back away slowly.
So I guess George Washington was a terrorist by your definition.
I only provided a partial wording to make a narrow point in response to barncat i.e. that terrorism by its very definition has a cause (to achieve some political goal) but this does not mean it is justified. In other words, I don’t see how anyone can claim the distinction between causation and justification is not clear.
The full wording, when someone attempts to define terrorism is usually along the lines, ‘use of violence against civilians, by a non-state actor, to achieve a political or ideological goal’. So Washington may be off the hook on a couple of counts – first that the US had a right to self determination and by declaring its independence became a state actor, and second that he did not deliberately target civilians. Both these points could be debated, but it would be a rather pointless exercise due to subsequent historical developments whereby the United States is now a fait accompli.
Yes. George Washington was indeed a terrorist. Native Americans still to this day know this as a FACT.
If the attacker were completely relieved of responsibility for the attack – if full responsibility were assigned to Canada – that would seem to be functionally equivalent to a “justification” as it would render the attacker blameless (not guilty).
But that’s not what Greenwald has said in this article. So, for your argument to have merit, you had to introduce conditionals that I didn’t read within the article as it stands. And I seriously doubt that Greenwald, as someone who used to defense work in his law practice, would ever argue that someone committing a heinous wrong against others, such as these attacks, could ever be judged completely relieved of responsibility.
p.s. Am preparing for a trip and must leave early tomorrow, so may or may not have time to get back here to see how the conversation is developing. Apologies ahead of time if I cannot respond. Just wanted to drop a thought in for your consideration.
As I said, I’m making the beginning of an argument. So, I’m defining the extreme (absolute) case – (if full responsibility were assigned to Canada) – just to show how a connection can be made from causation to justification. The connection is made through the concept of responsibility. All I need for now is to show that the distinction between causation and justification is not obvious, as Greenwald insists. I’m saying it has to be explained. I just need to show how it’s possible that the many people who have rejected the distinction are being reasonable, as opposed to this: “Only a willful desire to distort, or some deep confusion, can account for a failure to process this most basic point” (from the first Update). The “basic point” is a general point, and in that update Greenwald offers a quickie proof-by-example (that I argue above is a complete failure). I’m also approaching the question in general, so the particulars of the Canada case don’t matter.
The next step in the argument step would be to distribute the responsibility (you’re right). I don’t think it’s necessary for me to take that step to show that the distinction is not obvious in general. The bottom line is that applying the concept of “causation” to human beings is different than applying it to billiard balls or planets. Volition has to be considered. I touch on this in my comment on the first Update.
@Pedinska – Just in case you’re checking back and considering a reply… I ended up abandoning this approach. My final argument is here. Thanks.
Testing paragraphs within a blockquote
Your splitting of hairs detracts from the larger point, which is not to justify the violence but to understand its root causes. And yes, the exercise of understanding someone else does require some level of empathy that, at a minimum, allows us to see and acknowledge that person’s basic humanity without necessarily justifying his/her behavior.
In contrast, anyone who is labeled a “terrorist” is automatically demonized and dehumanized. It’s a very effective semantic tactic and a rhetorical tool that allows governments to simplistically explain a person’s or group’s actions so the good citizens don’t have to think too much … say, about how their tax dollars are funding foreign policies that tend to destroy real people’s lives and make people angry.
Greenwald’s point forces us to delve deeper into the question of why someone would engage in what any government conveniently and simplistically labels as “a terrorist attack.” And yes, it does force us to imagine what it would be like for us and our loved ones to be on the receiving end of a supposedly peace-loving country’s violent and inhumane foreign policies while pretending that they are the good guys. The anger that such policies do and will continue to foment drives retaliatory violence. The larger point is not to justify such retaliation. It is to illuminate where the anger comes from and to hold disingenuous governments accountable for their violent policies and acts that fuel such anger.
man, I love this site!! Its nice to know that there are others like you, who for whatever reasons, aren’t brainwashed.
You’re justifying. Don’t wanna do that or wanna make it clear you don’t. SAY IT. Say the person was wrong and should be punished. But you didn’t say it was wrong. Therefore you justified it.
as simple as simple can be. But you wouldn’t know that cause you word vomit more than an ebola victim.
Previously the two main recruitment factor for Islamic Extremist terrorists were :-
The US slavish support for Israel and it’s programs of ethnic cleansing in the West Bank, the deliberate targeting of innocent civilians in Gaza with bombs and the maintenance of the largest open air prison in the world (Gaza) among other human rights abuses
The US led drone warfare program which has also killed hundreds of innocent civilians, including hundreds of children (plus the odd cluster bomb and cruise missile strike in places like Yemen)
Now we have a new and powerful recruitment driver : the renewed and now overt Neocon war in Syria and Iraq for the benefit of the governments of Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Israel and Turkey. It’s certainly not for the benefit of Americans, Canadians, Brits, Australians or Europeans.
The generals are saying the so called war against ISIS is intended to last 20 years. At a cost of trillions of dollars and who knows how many more thousands of terrorists. ISIS have already got more than 6,000 new recruits since the US bombing of Iraq began about 3 months ago (CIA estimates are higher).
Interesting that GG makes argument that the alleged “terrorists” are actually engaged in acts of war (against uniformed members of the armed services). Because under any standard (Geneva Convention, etc.) the perpetrators are “unlawful enemy combatants” they wear no uniform, go gain military advantage they do not distinguish themselves from ordinary civilians, they use civilians as human shields to protect themselves, fly under no internationally recognized flag, have no obvious command structure, and they deliberately do not recognize the rules of war that GG seems to hold Western soldiers to.
And GG should remember that the “war on terror” did not really begin on 9/11. In truth, it arguably began with the FIRST attack on the WTC, in 1993. But it was only after 9/11 that the West realized that the war was already underway, and it was time to retaliate. So to criticize the West for “occupying” Afghanistan (the base of al Qaeda operations) is as accurate as criticizing America for “occupying” the Pacific Islands used as Japanese bases during WWII.
If you kickat a hornets nest for 13 years, don’t be surprised to get stung.
If you go out of your way in to provoke people by bombing and murdering innocent people with hellfire missiles from robotic flying machines etc. (or support other regimes that do) don’t be surprised that you recruit thousands of Jihadis, including some home grown ones.
The so called “War on Terror” is specifically designed to recruit more terrorists and radicalize more Jihadis. That is the result over the last 13 years and the people who are conducting the wars of aggression are not stupid. If they didn’t want to recruit more terrorists, they wouldn’t be doing what they are doing.
Both the CIA and the FBI agree that bombing people recruits more enemies. That’s why they oppose the tactics adopted by the Neocons in the US, Canada, Australia and the UK etc.
Both the FBI and CIA are against Obama’s proposals to tackle ISIS because bombing won’t work. Congress approved them anyway. http://ian56.blogspot.com/2014/09/httpclerk.html
How to defeat ISIS and Islamic Extremists in general – bombing won’t do it http://ian56.blogspot.com/2014/09/how-to-defeat-isis-and-islamic.html
Nothing feeds the MIC’s greed – like everyone else’s fear.
BOO!
re: causation vs justification
The problem you have with your critical interlocutors, GG. is, for them, there is no distinction. For them, these are hand-in-glove concepts. If you want to know their justification for their own choices, the justification is the causation that warrants the choice. The empirical basis of causation doesn’t even register on their radar screen. I decided awhile back that the basis for that intellectual hiccup could be either cognitive or affective (able vs willing). Always justified themselves for whatever premise they want to promote, the minute you try to explain the empirics of something, you’re dragged immediately back to optics. There is no causation without justification, and something is either justified or it isn’t. For some this is a real cognitive deficit, for others it’s merely a deficit that can be manipulated. So, no matter how many times you emphasize causation, GG, it will only be read as justification. While I recognize your desire to be clear, and to hammer the distinction you’re trying to make, imo, your time would be just as well spent teaching a pig to sing.
Causation goes to history and to science; justification goes to decision-making and to morality. So much should be self-evident — but for the vulgar minded.
Pretty much what geoffrey said!
People are so busy being “morally outraged” they won’t even allow the question of causation or cause.
How can you ask why something happened? You should be busy condemning what happened, that’s way more important!!1
“It is long past time that media outlets begin” Doing their job? Reporting facts? Stop being a moiuthpiece for the regime, oh, admin?
I don’t think shaming is going to work on the media, Glenn. To be accurate, the media is a rather broad array of very differently motivated entities. There are the 3 over the air networks which cannot be relied upon for accurate and honest accounts due to who pays the bills. Then there are the cable and satelite news orgs. CNN, MSNBC, and FOX give three different(yeah, right) accounts all while staying within the government’s propaganda message. They too are owned by multinationals which nullifies any and all objectivity. That leaves us with channels like FSTV, LINK, RT, and last and least, CCTV. Two of those(RT , CCTV) are government funded so must be regarded with suspicion. Newspapers are struggling with readership issues and an apathetic culture. That leaves online news outlets like First Look and others. To believe, however, that all these “news” orgs are going to spontaneously start doing their respective jobs is a little like expecting our government to act as if it really was a government of the people, by the….
still waiting for the defender of all things islamist to take his husband for a honeymoon in a muslim country
ahh, but he’d have an answer for that too: they’re backwards because we’ve made them that way, through imperialism, and…–whatever you get the point.
He has no answer for why the bigoted, hateful, and hyper violent ideology that is Muslim fundamentalism finds such a strong foundation in the religion of Islam and its teachings.
“bigoted, hateful, and hyper violent ideology”
Now that just sounds like projection.
There are many christian countries where homosexuality is illegal too. It isn’t a solely muslim problem.
Should be a “tiny fraction of that violence”, not “faction”.
The reason why we are all shocked is that most Canadians have turned a blind eye to the fact that Canada has been at war for 13 years. We prefer to live in the Trudeau and Chrétien days where everyone in the world loved us and we would not participate in combat. Harper has changed the values of the country and we are all guilty of living in denial about this (myself included). Next time Liberals want to punish their own party by voting for the Tories or abstaining, we need to remember what we are actually doing.
Having said all of that, there is no justification for this violent act. It is heart breaking to watch events like this unfold in my home.
The Harper government didn’t change the values of our country. And I’m not even a Harper supporter, so don’t think I’m trying to defend him in general. Canada is a member of NATO. We have been since the 1950s – well before Harper, clearly – and our membership in that alliance has allowed us to become the successful, prosperous country we are because the US took on the bulk of the military cost / burden of defending the entire alliance (US, Canada, most of Europe) so that the other countries in the alliance didn’t have to spend a lot of money on their own militaries. In exchange, the alliance members agreed to come to the defence of each other; an attack on one NATO member is considered an attack on all NATO members. So, after Sept. 11, we went to war in Afghanistan BECAUSE WE ARE MEMBERS OF NATO.
Please, learn a little bit about the topic you choose to speak on. I don’t think that’s too much to ask.
From the Globe and Mail:
I’m not sure about the logic of this policy. Why not let him travel to Syria and get himself killed, if that’s what he wanted to do? Even if he failed to get himself killed, he’d probably have been disabused of some of his romantic notions about war. Still, it is quite admirable that Canadian authorities prioritize the safety of Syrians over that of Canadians. Such selflessness is rare nowadays.
“So he was really mad that Canada actually supported the American bombing of [ISIS] in Syria and Iraq so I think that was the main motive in killing that Canadian soldier.”
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/who-is-martin-couture-rouleau-1.2807285
I guess what this brings to mind for me is the history of young guys going to fight for causes since…forever. Remember the American volunteers in the Spanish civil war?, The American volunteers going to China to fight the Japanese? Do we need psychologists to discern their motives as foreigners to join a fight?
…and this Canadian incident, let’s consider the guys who went the official route and “defended Canada” by getting themselves killed in Afghanistan, or by killing Afghans in Afghanistan. For every fighter that western bombs and bullets kill, there are many civilians. How is that less abhorent than Canadian soldiers being targetted in Canada? And when Canadian soldiers do go overseas, whether it is to fight the Boer war in Africa on behalf of the British Empire, or to fight Muslims on behalf of the Americans…how is that a noble defence of Canada?… on a higher plane than the actions of the people who fight back?
What you hear in the comments generally about these incidents, like the one in Canada, is that the police should either be monitoring suspects 24/7 or that people that “look Muslim” or who express abhorent ideas should be already in jail. I find the ease at which the public is susceptible to fear, …disturbing. The East German Stasi, the Gestapo, nobody, can prevent incidents such as the use of a common car, or even as in the Boston marathon event, a rice cooker as a weapon. Enacting new draconian laws, as appears to be the case in Canada, as it has been in New Zealand, America, UK etc, damaging the freedom of privacy and expression in these countries, only will incentivize other violent crimes based on politics, and harm democracy and freedom for all citizens.
You should hear the shrieking excuses in places like the SUN chain in Canada when I point out that kids go to Israel and the USA to ‘fight for freedom’…when the only reason they do it is that it gives them a better chance to kill someone.
Canada used to be known for peacekeeping, and Prime Minister Pearson got the Nobel Peace prize in 1957 for inventing it (and the peacekeepers thenselves got the peace prize in 1988). Many Canadians are less than impressed with degree to which we’ve been sucked into war-fighting by the government of the day.
Those people are entitled to be surprised and disappointed: Mr Harper isn’t.
Say it like it is! We got the shit end of the stick!
“Lester Pearson is one of Canada’s most important political figures. A Nobel Peace laureate, he is considered a great peacekeeper and ‘honest broker.’ But in this critical examination of his work, Pearson is exposed as an ardent cold warrior who backed colonialism and apartheid in Africa, Zionism, coups in Guatemala, Iran and Brazil and the U.S. invasion of the Dominican Republic. A beneficiary of U.S. intervention in Canadian political affairs, he also provided important support to the U.S. in Vietnam and pushed to send troops to the American war in Korea. Written in the form of a submission to an imagined “Truth and Reconciliation” commission about Canada’s foreign policy past Lester Pearson’s Peacekeeping: The Truth May Hurt challenges one of the most important Canadian foreign policy myths.”
-Yves Engler “The Truth May Hurt”
http://rabble.ca/books/reviews/2012/02/lester-pearson%E2%80%99s-peacekeeping
“(very few people would view attacks on soldiers in a shopping mall parking lot to be justified)”
Does the Governments of Great Britain, Canada, the United States and Israel support for attacking “military age males” wherever they may be count? Or, is that not “people”?
Exactly to the point.
So many logical paths, concerning who is a legitimate target during war, radiating from this incident. I’m sure that during WW2, German soldiers in a store parking lot would have been considered fair game for the French Resistance. Naturally there will be a comparison between 1) soldiers off duty, going shopping, not in the country where the war is being fought, but belonging to one of the armies that is fighting, 2) soldiers off duty, attending a funeral or a wedding, in the country where the war is being fought and belonging to one of the armies that is fighting, and 3) military-age males in normal civilian pursuits, perhaps attending that same funeral or wedding, in the country where the war is being fought but not belonging to the army. A military-age male wearing an army uniform (or other obvious insignia) and pointing a gun at people might be the only person we could agree on as a legitimate target in war.
And ongoing, shootings of Canadian soldiers in Ottawa:
https://ca.news.yahoo.com/uniformed-canadian-soldier-shot-at-ottawa-war-memorial-140825845.html
Related?
How come Greenwald’s articles dont show up on the Intercept front page…hard to locate.
Agree. That must be an oversight.
I too agree. Action please.
Steven(then)Harper has being an Israeli agent since the 1980’s,when his wife’s attempted embezzeling of the Olympia and York(canary wharf) front she worked for resulted in their exile from hoggetowne(rebranded too-Khanate of Fordistan)to alberta.This was widely known in calgaryconservative political circles,and a source of amusement too such.This wire up his spouses ass from telavia is how he is operated.The last federal election in canaduh was a choice between 3 treasonous Israeli agents-one of them won-Oh the surprise!Next time -we are lined up for same.In a proper democracy,the whores are prepaid.
Well, CSIS vs. ISIS. Similar acronyms, and similarities in other disturbing ways. The reporting immediately posits terrorism, and doesn’t provide differing views until late in the story, after many have stopped reading. Typical fear-mongering.
CSIS has shown itself to mean Canada Supporting Israel Security.
Sorry, but I must repeat what I’ve stated in the past:
Under the classical Islamic law, harming even off-duty soldiers is prohibited, let alone harming civilians.
The rules are very strict and non-combatants include off-duty soldiers.
No Ifs and Buts about it.
It’s the cancerous currents within Islam that are in clear violation of Traditional (exoteric and esoteric) Islam.
Radicalized Islamic groups have repeatedly shown that that they will obey of disregard Islamic law as they see fit.
Another attack or attacks have offered at the Canadian War Memorial in Ottawa and the Parliament Building
Well said.
Thanks, Glenn, for another eye opening article. As a Canadian this article has shocked me, and my perspective has shifted.
I hadn’t thought the rest of the world may see Canada as you’ve portrayed. I have personally been against Canada getting into bed with US military action and the US intelligence community.
I think the heart of the problem is that Canada’s flip-flopping political landscape does not leave much room for true democracy. History repeats itself over and over here in the battle between the Conservative Party and the Liberal Party. Time and time again I have seen the ruling party destroy itself (both have done so, multiple times) by way of corruption and completely losing touch with what Canadians want, until the people are sick of it. At the next election the former opposition party is elected with an overwhelming majority, allowing them do pretty much what they want. Repeat, repeat, repeat,
Canada used to be known for its peace keeping and humanitarian operations; its sat that this is how the world sees us now.
No one will deny that Islamists are moving up the ladders in every level of western culture. So, when the destruction of civil liberty in the western world is complete non-islamists will hardly notice enforcement of Sharia law until an Imam-supervised beating, stoning or beheading takes place in their neighborhood. If you think not your are kidding yourself.
What a load of crap!
‘nuf said!
“[T]he destruction of civil liberty in the western world,” doesn’t appear to require “Islamists,” other than as props.
Damn you are on point with this article. How true it is that us Americans understand terrorism to mean attacks on Americans by Muslims and its a crying shame. Its pure manipulation on part of the MSM and the state. I almost laugh when I hear well educated politicians using that word obliviously in the wrong context. We really need to educate our friends and family about the true meaning of that word so the state cannot continue the ridiculous rhetoric they employ to dissolve our freedoms and commit horrible acts of violence on Middle Eastern countries.
So based on your educated understanding, would the 2008 attack in Mumbai properly be considered “terrorism”? The train bombings in Spain & London? And aside from its locus in America, how would those be distinguished from the Boston Marathon bombing?
Asking what constitutes as “terrorism” could be considered a trick question.
Like the article already explained: Terrorism is actually a very undefined term, that’s why it’s mostly being used as a moral judgment call.
Because in all reality one groups terrorists usually ends up being another groups freedom fighters, that’s why the term “terrorism” is such an subjective one, it completely depends on the observers perspective. Labeling a party as “terrorists” has become the new norm of stigmatizing the enemy by dehumanizing him and thus labeling their interests and goals as illegitimate and inhumane.
There are certainly gray areas of what constitutes terrorism, but one definition that I use is the intentional targeting of civilians for political gain. It’s fairly straight forward.
Excellent article. Thank you.
I normally agree with GG, but in this case I disagree that the media reaction has been one of “shock”. If anything the media has been prepping the Canadian public for just these types of attacks, what with all the stories about Canadians going off to fight Jihad.
Sorry but, GG did not adequately argue the point that Canadians are “shocked”.
I basically just wrote what you have said. Full agreement.
Of all the justifications for Western aggression in the Middle East, the “safe haven” argument is the most reversible of them all. American soldiers are recruited and trained on American soil, American weapons are manufactured on American soil, American military command and control operations are headquartered on American soil. If that’s not a safe haven for an aggressive military force, then nothing is. By its own logic, the safe-haven argument invites a reciprocal response.
typo in GG’s last sentence — not being, but begin
There used to be proofreaders in residence at newspapers and TV stations. With the advent of spellcheck they went the way of the Dodo.