Last May, after getting a ride to school with his dad, 18-year-old Abdullahi Yusuf absconded to the Minneapolis-St. Paul airport to board a flight to Turkey. There, FBI agents stopped Yusuf and later charged him with conspiracy to provide material support to a foreign terrorist organization—he was allegedly associated with another Minnesota man believed to have gone to fight for the Islamic State in Syria.
To keep other youth from following Yusuf’s path, U.S. Attorney Andrew Luger recently said that the federal government would be launching a new initiative to work with Islamic community groups and promote after-school programs and job training–to address the “root causes” of extremist groups’ appeal. “This is not about gathering intelligence, it’s not about expanding surveillance or any of the things that some people want to claim it is,” Luger said.
Luger’s comments spoke to the concerns of civil liberties advocates, who believe that blurring the line between engagement and intelligence gathering could end up with the monitoring of innocent individuals. If past programs in this area are any guide, those concerns are well founded.
Documents obtained by attorneys at the Brennan Center for Justice at New York University School of Law, and shared with the Intercept, show that previous community outreach efforts in Minnesota–launched in 2009 in response to the threat of young Americans joining the al-Qaeda-linked militia al-Shabab, in Somalia—were, in fact, conceived to gather intelligence.
A grant proposal from the St. Paul Police Department to the Justice Department, which the Brennan Center obtained through a Freedom of Information Act request to the FBI, lays out a plan in which Somali-speaking advocates would hold outreach meetings with community groups and direct people toward the Police Athletic League and programs at the YWCA. The proposal says that “the team will also identify radicalized individuals, gang members, and violent offenders who refuse to cooperate with our efforts.”
“It’s startling how explicit it was – ‘You don’t want to join the Police Athletic League? You sound like you might join al-Shabab!’” said Michael Price, an attorney with the Brennan Center.
***
The Islamic State may be the new face of religious extremism, but for a number of years, law enforcement in St. Paul and Minneapolis have had to contend with the appeal of al-Shabab to members of the country’s largest Somali population—more than 20 young men have reportedly left Minnesota to fight with the group since 2007.
Dennis Jensen, St. Paul’s former assistant police chief, had spent years studying relations between police and the city’s Somali community, which is largely composed of recent immigrants from a war zone who have little reason to trust the authorities. But the al-Shabab threat galvanized the Department to see their work as a frontline for counterterrorism. Jensen told the Center for Homeland Defense and Security in 2009 that extremist recruitment added “a greater sense of urgency about what we are doing,” he said. “We’re up front about what our intentions are. It’s not a secret we’re interested in radicalized individuals.” (Jensen did not respond to emailed questions from the Intercept.)
Jensen helped design a new program for St. Paul–a two-year initiative called the African Immigrant Muslim Coordinated Outreach Program, which was funded in 2009 with a $670,000 grant from the Justice Department.
The outreach push would help police identify gang members or extremists, using “criteria that will stand up to public and legal scrutiny,” according to the proposal submitted to the Justice Department. “The effort of identifying the targets will increase law enforcement’s ability to maintain up-to-date intelligence on these offenders, alert team members to persons who are deserving of additional investigative efforts and will serve as an enhanced intelligence system,” the proposal reads. The Center for Homeland Defense and Security, in the 2009 interview with Jensen, characterized it as “developing databases to track at-risk youth who may warrant follow-up contact and investigation by law enforcement.”
Asad Zaman, executive director of the Muslim American Society of Minnesota, said that his organization got funding through the program to hire a police liaison. They held meetings once or twice a month for two years, usually involving 20 or so community members and a few local cops. “The officers talked about drug enforcement and gangs and recruitment and domestic violence. Everyone loved it when they brought their bomb-sniffing robot once,” he recalled.
He said he was not told about an intelligence component, though he had been asked to keep track of attendees at outreach meetings. “Several times [the police department] asked me whether that was possible to turn over the list of people at the programs, and I said, ‘It ain’t gonna happen,’” Zaman said.
Steve Linders, a St. Paul Police spokesman, said that “the intelligence aspect never came to fruition. The program evolved away from that.” He said that they would sometimes pass information that community members brought to their attention to the FBI, but that was the extent of the bureau’s involvement.
Linders said that people were not required to sign in to outreach meetings and there was no list of people who refused to participate, as originally proposed. “It was a conscious decision,” not to follow the plan laid out in the grant application, Linders said. “We frankly got more out of the program when we viewed it more as a way to get [community groups] resources and get their trust and partnership,” he said.
For the Brennan Center’s Price, the shifting description just underlines how such programs can mislead the public. “I’m glad to hear they appear to have had a change of heart,” he said, “but it would be in everybody’s interest to clarify at the outset that they are collecting information for intelligence purposes, or that they are not.”
The program “still raises questions for me,” Price added. “What led them to at first propose intelligence gathering, and then do an about face?”
***
Around the same time that St. Paul developed its program, the FBI was leading a parallel push to leverage community outreach for intelligence. In 2009, it launched “Specialized Community Outreach Teams,” which would “strategically expand outreach to the Somali community to address counterterrorism-related issues” in Minneapolis and several other cities around the country. Then-FBI director Robert Mueller described the teams as part of an effort “to develop trust, address concerns, and dispel myths” about the FBI.
In an internal memo obtained by the Brennan Center, however, the teams were called a “paradigm shift,” allowing “FBI outreach to support operational programs.”
The co-mingling of intelligence and outreach missions would appear to run afoul of the FBI’s own guidelines for community engagement, the 2013 version of which state that officers must maintain “appropriate separation of operational and outreach efforts.”
The FBI would not say if the “Specialized Community Outreach Teams” (which have ended) would be allowed under the new guidance, though in a statement, the FBI said the guidance “does not restrict coordination with operational divisions to obtain a better understanding of the various violations (i.e. terrorism, drugs, human trafficking, white collar crime, etc.) which may be impacting communities.”
“If the guidance would allow this program to continue, then it just confirms that it’s full of loopholes,” said Price, of the Brennan Center.
This isn’t the first FBI outreach program to raise these concerns. The American Civil Liberties Union has documented cases in recent years in San Francisco and San Jose where federal agents visited mosques and attended Ramadan dinners in the name of outreach, all the while keeping records on the participants.
Some of the programs were well-meaning attempts at educating Islamic leaders about the threat of hate crimes, but nonetheless ended up collecting private information, according to Mike German, a former FBI agent who worked on this issue for the ACLU (he is now also with the Brennan Center). In other cases, “FBI agents were going out with outreach officers or mimicking community outreach to exploit it for intelligence purposes,” he said.
Lori Saroya, until recently executive director of the Council on American-Islamic Relations Minnesota, said that people weren’t always aware of their rights when faced with outreach visits. “We had cases of people inviting FBI agents in for tea or to have dinner, not knowing they didn’t have to let them in,” she said.
It’s this precedent that gives pause to critics of a new White House initiative to “counter violent extremism.” Though it is ostensibly aimed at extremists of all stripes, the outreach push has largely framed the involvement of Islamic community groups as key to helping authorities “disrupt homegrown terrorists, and to apprehend would-be violent extremists,” in Attorney General Eric Holder’s words.
Luger’s plan for the Minneapolis area is part of this initiative, run jointly between the Justice Department, National Counterterrorism Center, and the Department of Homeland Security. Los Angeles and Boston are the other pilot cities. Details about the undertaking are still vague, though the attacks in Paris this month refocused attention on the issue, and the White House abruptly scheduled a summit on the topic for February (it was postponed last fall, without explanation.)
German is doubtful about the prospects. “Countering violent extremism” is a relatively young science, and he points to studies that have failed to identify predictable indicators of what makes someone decide to commit ideologically motivated violence.
Pumping resources into underserved communities is great, says German, but some of these programs may end up just alienating the communities they are intended to work with. “It suggests that the entire community is a threat, or a potential threat, and something to be managed,” he said.
Photo: Eric Miller/Reuters/Landov
Meanwhile .. “the usual suspects” are picking your pockets and recruiting your kids..
Does shipping out to Israel to join the IDF signify a tendency to commit violence for ideological reasons?
How about joining the US Army? Can anyone (really) sort these types out from “terrorists?”
The US and the EU must come to terms with the fact that Muslims are part of their citizenry, and that as citizens, like all other citizens in a democracy, they have a right to an input in matters that particularly affect their communities and lives. Before you think, ‘ terrorists’, recall always that the vast majority of Moslems are peaceful citizens. As such, they can either genuinely incorporate the input of Moslems in their quest for policies that are both sound and comprehensive, and ensure the security of all. Or they can go the other way. Expell all Moslem citizens from their soil. Each and everyone of the, right to the last infant born a second ago. But also declare that moment the last they will have a single drop of oil and oil-derived products from Moslem countries entering their shores.
Think of the extreme state of happiness Americans would feel – not to mention the take-a-peaceful-stroll-in-the-middle-of-the-night kind of security – when not a single Moslem walks their streets, and all the oil in their cars and all oil-driven industries and all the plastic products and all other oil derived products come from their own wonderful fracking activities that are also extremely beneficial to their health and well-being, and not a single American military base or embassy remains on Arab and Moslem soil, and all the hundreds of thousands of soldiers there finally come home to compete in the job market where they will find plenty of high paying jobs.
Moslems could remain peacefully in their countries, and no, they would not have to ‘drink’ their oil either; there is always China patiently observing the bizarre playing itself out and waiting on the margins. They would be only too happy to fill the vacated spots. Moslems could sell to other countries too, and learn to live without Facebook. Or Google. Afterall, they did just fine for millenia without these. And the Moslems could finally have no fear of being sold to Guantanamo human traders.
And all would live happily ever after…
http://citationsneeded.com/2014/11/18/a-skeptics-guide-to-foreign-fighter-hysteria
Not to try to change the subject, but it seems there was a “breach of standards” in the political cartoon world down under:
http://www.gilad.co.uk/writings/2015/1/22/anti-israel-cartoon-breached-standards
(Just wanted to share….since The Intercept is about the only place left online to do so).
Calling surveillance of Muslims “community outreach” is doublespeak.
To me it seems counter-productive to put fear into an entire group of people, if you really only want intelligence on a few. The best way to gather intelligence is to gain trust, and it is probably difficult to recruit assets when no one wants to help you because they feel like they’re being used. Also, this kind of thing could have other ramifications like when the CIA was giving people vaccines, and middle ages diseases started resurfacing because people didn’t trust those administering the shots.
A speech any Muslim terrorist could give to the Usa.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5Amf1RE0AA
Death to America.
America. Where neighbors spy on neighbors.
Yep, America, the exceptional.
A bit of biting satire to lighten everyone’s day:
http://qz.com/329404/a-muslim-finally-has-the-apology-the-world-has-been-waiting-for/
We currently have a Stasi-like apparatus that’s operational from coast to coast in the U.S. (Anyone who is unfamiliar with the tactics of the Stasi might want to read about Zersetzung.)
You need role models who sound convincing. We – a friend who grew up in East Germany and I who grew up in West Germany – liked to visit the FBI in Washington.
what
Zersetzung?
How Community Outreach Programs to Muslims Blur Lines between Outreach and Intelligence
https://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-ts=1421782837&v=Ljr9PymgYwA&x-yt-cl=84359240
The truth about the USA.
How may Americans know about the LEIU?
A must-read, IMO, is “The Private Sector”, by George O’Toole — a book about “rent-a-cops, private spies and the police-industrial complex”, written in 1978. In it, he writes extensively about the LEIU — the Law Enforcement Intelligence Unit. I dare say that most Americans have never heard of it. He also wrote about the LEIU in an article titled “America’s Secret Police Network” — a pdf of the article can be found on Wikipedia. (As I understand it, the LEIU is “not subject to the provisions of the FOIA.”)
From O’Toole’s book:
“Of course, it’s just possible that the LEIU has never been exploited by the CIA, Army Intelligence, or any other federal agency. And maybe, despite the lawlessness and political spying of many of its member agencies, the LEIU is nothing more than a group of policemen dedicated to fighting crime, the LEIU remains one of the most potentially dangerous threats to freedom in America.”
(“George O’Toole now deceased, was “a former computer specialist who served with the Central Intelligence Agency as chief of its Problem Analysis Branch.”)
What’s the LEIU “up to” now? Maybe “The Intercept” could tell us.
Correction: How many Americans know about the LEIU?
So … there’s no THERE there.
This one should’ve been trashed. Some leads just don’t pan out.
Not everything has to be a “gotcha”.
Also: “then-FBI director Robert Mueller described the teams as part of an effort “to develop trust, address concerns, and dispel myths” about the FBI.”
Was he talking about the trust that the FBI wouldn’t covertly spy on communities they were purportedly just trying to seek aid from? Was he talking about the myth that the FBI would do so?
If you’re looking for a “THERE”, then it’s yet another (and importantly, documented) example of the FBI lying and machinating. Ever heard of Cointelpro? J. Edgar Hoover? Believe it or not, this shit still happens, and is still “THERE”. Sorry your fears just don’t pan out. Or maybe it does not for you but for the Muslims in question…must be nice living as a white non-Muslim today. As it was in say, 1963. FBI misconduct? Who cares? Where’s the “THERE”? I’m white and not a Muslim….
It’s a news site, Dave. No news here.
Any editor worth a damn would see this.
Any progressive leftist Intersept commentators want to own up to buying corporate product in supprt of the healthcare [dot] gov social network? Or do your ferrets have your tongues?
My Medicare will start in about three weeks. I worked for over forty years and broke my back as a Registered Nurse (never mind all the psychological trauma!).
I feel like I paid for it already and now I intend to use it.
In a way Ron Paul felt similarly. He voted No on all kinds of stuff, but if they were giving, he wasn’t going to reject it for his district.
I’ll be taking the SS and Medicare. It’s my money.
Between Paul Krugman and the progressive leftist commentariat of Salon.com that repeatedly urged, verbatim, “Ram it through!,” and the gun-control and Equality and immigration reform and ‘Climate Change’ and NFL-coach diversity chanting New York Times, the progressive left celebrated ACA, owns its corporate giveaways. A progressive left that still stiffens up and giggles and squeals whenever repeal is demanded.
In truth, the “progressive left” fought from the very beginning for a single payer health care system based on “IMPROVED Medicare for All” (visit the PNHP “Physicians for A National Health Program” website for all the details.)
We were shut out from the day Obama was elected in 2008. I was living in Westhampton Beach, NY at the time and attended one of Obama’s “listening tours” on health care and 90% of the 100 or so in attendance (many doctors, nurses, psychologists, clergy etc.) overwhelming wanted a single payer system that would deep six the insurance companies/profits out of the health care equation. We were completely ignored.
It was the progressive doctors and nurses who were arrested at the Baucus hearings.
Remember the big ABC television special on health care? I traveled into NYC for a demonstration with FAIR (Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting) to protest the fact that Obama had his own personal physician dis-invited from the broadcast because he was a single payer supporter and a member of PNHP.
Then when push came to shove Obama personally killed the so-called “Public Option” which would have allowed Americans to opt into Medicare.
Believe me when I tell you, progressives really fought for a single payer system and we were completely shut out.
Now will progressives support repeal of ACA?
Letters like this (by “coachcaptain”) were typical:
“If I were in Rep. Pelosi’s shoes I would not lock out any moderates but once the bill is ready to go I would ram it through and to hell with bipartisan. People are dying!
“Any Senator or Rep. who votes against genuine healthcare reform should be impeached and/or recalled as they have demonstrably failed to vote for the best interests of the rest of us in favor of corporate interests.”
http://open.salon.com/blog/kimberlykrautter/2009/07/28/un-spinning_healthcare_reform_-_part_1
What in God’s given fuck does this have to do with this article.
It sounds like you have strong opinions on the Intersept’s comprehensive and continuing coverage of spying on the Muslim community. Why don’t you weigh in on the article, and maybe I’ll respond.
I believe his point was, “What in God’s given fuck does this have to do with this article”?
It’s not really a hard question for a sentient being to understand unless they’re so obsessed with wanting to push their Limbaugh/Alex-Jonesian approach to “conversation” that the article could be about Ferguson and some asshole will talk about Robert Byrd.
So, to reiterate – “What in God’s given fuck does this have to do with this article?”
The corrupted, violent, resource-looting, sociopathic United States outreaches to Muslim communities in the hopes of discouraging sociopathic behavior.
A bit like sending Darren Wilson to help with Ferguson’s issues.
Related:
Kevin Gosztola – *Despite Prior Claims, FBI’s Own Records Show Agency Coordinated with Police & Spied on Occupy Movement*
“The FBI spied on Occupy Chicago. It also coordinated with police departments, helping other law enforcement agencies keep tabs on Occupy protesters, according to documents obtained by independent journalist Yana Kunichoff. The documents contradict a statement from the FBI in November 2011, where the agency declared, ‘Recent published blogs and news stories have reported the FBI has coordinated with local police departments on strategy and tactics to be employed in addressing Occupy Wall Street protestors. These reports are false. At no time has the FBI engaged with local police in this capacity…’”
“{Says Ryan Shapiro:} ‘And now these newly released documents about the FBI’s intimate coordination with local law enforcement in investigating Occupy Chicago further reveal the FBI to have plainly lied about the nature and extent of the Bureau’s anti-Occupy efforts.'”
http://dissenter.firedoglake.com/2015/01/21/despite-prior-claims-fbis-own-records-show-agency-coordinated-with-police-spied-on-occupy-movement/
Notwithstanding Nate’s comments, I thought your comment made sense and was easy to verify. None of us are ever going to agree completely and even if it is a bit of a rant, isn’t it time for more people to be ranting? We read article after article pointing out to us the government’s inexorable march to a police state and many here just want to flex their intellectual muscles for all to see when action seems necessary if we are to forestall the inevitable loss of liberties. We still have some liberties and while ranting may not be specifically listed it must be in there somewhere. At least the people who comment here are willing to discuss these important issues unlike most of society not wanting to be bothered by it. Speak up people.
Nice of you to say. Right on.
Cindy – your comments have become increasingly outlandish and don’t even make sense. Perhaps I am wrong, but I dont recall you having such knee-jerk angry reactions in the past. Maybe you just need to vent but comments like yours make rational discussion and argument onan article like this practically impossible.
Perhaps you need to take a break from the daily hair-on-fire, outrage circuit?
Cindy,
Please realize, regardless of others’ views, that you have every right as much as any others here to post at will. If it is venting, then fine, but do what you want as long as TI allows it. People can skip any post they want and I do that regularly herein.
LOL, since I said Cindy shouldn’t post here anymore right!? Sure Nemo, that definitely happened. /s/
.
@ Nate
I know you did not say that. I wrote that Cindy should post “at will” which meant post as often as she chooses or as it pleases her (and not anyone else).
Likewise, I would not advocate for you to post any less than you do. I wrote months ago that you — as a resident contrarian — are an asset in the comment section to help avoid the voices here becoming an echo chamber of popular opinion (paraphrased).
.
Appreciated, Nemo Est Insula.
Shhhh, everybody … mommy is in the room. Mind your manners now.
Oh yay, it’s Kitt – the paragon of useless posts!
Quoted from the fly shit in the ointment.
Kitt –
lol
” To keep other youth from following Yusuf’s path, U.S. Attorney Andrew Luger recently said that the federal government would be launching a new initiative to work with Islamic community groups and promote after-school programs and job training–to address the “root causes” of extremist groups’ appeal ”
” Root Causes “, my arse ! I recall very clearly soon after nine eleven many in the Islamic community asking for the government to take a serious look at the ‘ root causes’ that would lead some to commit such despicable crimes as was committed on that date.
Did anyone listen ? Of course not. Instead, they were treated as if they had let fly a broccoli-bean fart in a broken elevator! Now someone wants them to ‘address root causes ‘, more than 14 yrs later, after millions have been slaughtered, maimed, displaced, disappeared, tortured and imprisoned.
With all due respect to the stated founding principle of THE//INTERCEPT, that of providing its readership with a source of reliable factual investigative reporting, not “journalism” co-mingled with the rhetorical editorial sophistry of broad-brush hyperbolic opinions that simply panders to particular ideological “choirs” of “true-believers”. This piece, like many recent offerings, however well crafted and professionally written it may be, does not provide any new informed insight; it merely parrots and regurgitates widely known and understood documented criticisms and opinions of our dysfunctional “Justice” bureaucracy. Were it properly published as an informed broad-brush OP-ED exercise, and not presented in the guise of carefully penned investigative journalism, my disenchantment would not ensue.
Lets do investigate the specific abusive and unproductive practices of the DOJ, and shine an informed light on the apparent incompetency of its administrative planners in their endless quest to extract public financing for funding these feckless and invasive “sources and methods”. Likewise, lets take a look into the dark underbelly of the malfeasance that operates behind the banner of government sanctioned “legal immigration”; what is the justification for the secret “program” funding for importing, and providing economic sustenance for, literally hundreds of thousands of foreign citizens, without any public knowledge or accountability. If such programs are actually indicative of our benevolence and empathetic cultural compassion as a society, then why must our government keep such noble efforts, and the related costs, hidden behind a dark veil of secrecy?
Anyway folks, let’s all join together to preserve this cyber resource as a place for informed discourse and comity, and hopefully not experience it descending into the all too common hapless and repetitive psycho-babble that has occasioned so many other ostensibly well intentioned venues. These thoughts have been on my mind for some time and are not meant to single out the work of Cora Currier, a writer whose ability and industry I have come to respect, but to suggest that an actual visual distinction be made between the conveyance of opinion and informed factual reporting.
“Work is love made visible.” KG
As Usual,
EA
Thank you Ethan Allen for pushing for independent investigative journalism here at TH.
.
While I agree with most of your comment, I still like this site. Please review the “About the Intercept” page linked below for the mission statement.
However, I must say that this TI goal: “Our long-term mission is to produce fearless, adversarial journalism across a wide range of issues” is now about as fearless and adversarial as a powderpuff football game. Now when dealing with the Snowden Documents (if any of any import still exist) TI’s effort against the NSA, GCHQ et al. is more like a Sadie Hawkins Day Dance-off, while ‘skirting’ and waltzing around the real issues of the deep, dark surveillance state.
Regardless, you and I can choose not to visit this site. Furthermore, perhaps the new editor-in-chief will get The Intercept up to speed about stopping or intercepting whatsoever it is that it is supposed to be intercepting…
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/about/
.
Those “well-known” things are because investigations like this happened. And it’s rather odd that you define only-worthy journalism as “any new informed insight”. When in fact this is new informed insight–the FBI has done this recently, and there is documentation. Assumption that the FBI sucks is not evidence that the FBI sucks, for one crass sentence. But–what is your beef? You would’ve shut down all journalism since 1903 because everyone knows that people and governments and agencies do things? Despite your love of $5 words (“rhetorical editorial sophistry of broad-brush hyperbolic” lol), you don’t actually seem to be very bright.
And p.s. I’m an actual descendant of Ethan Allen. So suck that too.
Re: Dave – 22 Jan 2015 at 7:45 am
Well Dave, as entertaining as it may be to publically exchange ad hominem vitriolic insults with an alleged (?) fellow heir of Ethan Allen’s linage and legacy, any such appeasing of your feckless and vapid pursuit seems to be a bit of a waste of time and bandwidth.
Thank you for lending your example to the quest for substantive literate discourse.
As Usual,
EA
The institutionalized violent extremism and energy-irresponsibility of the United States worries me far more than a few potentially crazed Muslims.
The US government, and most of its allies, needs creative, ‘interventionist’ outreach from brilliant minds (not to mention extensive therapy) far more than random Muslims trying to get on with their lives.
Amen and laughing my head off
RCL
Cindy — this is an absolutely fascinating sequence of words.
1. The … energy-irresponsibility of the United States worries me far more than a few potentially crazed Muslims.
2. ‘Governments’ need ‘outreach from brilliant minds.
3. And therapy.
Share this with your shrink. It’ll keep him or her employed for years.
fp-
I wrote “The institutionalized violent extremism and energy-irresponsibility of the United States” (note the “and”) because I wanted them together, not selectively edited by random posters. However…
Now, pay close attention: The US Miltary has over 650 bases worldwide. This is an enormous ‘carbon footprint. As David Swanson points out:
“The U.S. military burns through about 340,000 barrels of oil each day. If the Pentagon were a country, it would rank 38th out of 196 in oil consumption. There’s just no other institution that comes remotely close to the military in this or other types of environmental destruction. (But try to discover that fact at an anti-pipeline march.)”
THIS IS ENERGY-IRRESPONSIBILTY.
Now, as for my statement about the government needing outreach, therapy, etc., it is, I think, an example of “irony.” Perhaps you’ve heard of it.
http://my.firedoglake.com/blog/2015/01/22/militarism-in-the-air-we-breathe/
Cindy, Cindy, Cindy.
If you want them coupled, couple them. What you said was (I’ll use a clearer example here, so you’ll understand): “The arrogance and naivete of people like Cindy worries me far more than …”
By this, both your arrogance AND your naivete worry me (as indeed they do). Together OR separately. Fifth-graders know this.
More worrisome (beyond this, and your misuse of the word ‘irony’) is your thought process.
I want to believe you’re very young, Cindy — as your posts here would indicate. I worry you’re not. Hence the suggestion that you share this with your shrink.
Seriously. Think about it. Then do it.
fp, fp, fp –
I am fairly young, but I do not have reading comprehension problems, like you do.
Your post clarifies nothing except that you have nothing to say that can stand against even the mildest amount of disinterested scrutiny.
Clarity can only be offered, Cindy. It cannot be force-fed.
The only ‘clarity’ you offer, as I said, is the emptiness of your viewpoint.
Denying your ability to force-feed people with ’emptiness’ may be a fetish of yours, but it has no place in intelligent conversation.
From George Orwell’s 1984:
Thanks for posting Orwell’s take on how the normalization of torture and extreme violence works in an easily frightened population. His analysis is as timeless and relevant as Machiavelli’s, in my layman’s opinion.
It took me a conservatively estimated decade of being stalked and tortured to finally understand why a complete stranger invited me to lunch in 1999 so he could try to convince me not to move to Brazil the following month. A dozen years prior to that — on a lighter, yet still relevant note — I was also asked “Why would you ever want to leave Texas?”, the day before I got out of there.
In addition to Orwell’s observations, a lesson I drew is that American stalker-torturers like to keep their subjects close. Keep the budget manageable; operational costs grow when subjects start moving around. (But that did not turn out to be a problem, given the US public’s largesse towards its beloved, globalized Stasi.) Another lesson gained from personal experience is that frightened Americans are annoyed by those who do not share their irrational fear of what they do not want to know about.
Oh, Great Lord! They keep spying on Muslim people and trying to recruit them for their snitching jobs?!?
Thank God I am not Muslim so they don’t spy on me!
In the mean time I keep waiting for a report about the ratio of snitching a@sh0l3s to general population in “‘the’ land of ‘the’ ‘free’ and ‘the’ ‘brave’ …” as it compares to what the Stasi, KGB and even Nazis achieved. In Cuba and Venezuela they prominently show signs “en cada cuadra” (on each street block) letting you know “this is where your neighborhood’s snitching cell it”, they would even pay you visits …
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committees_for_the_Defense_of_the_Revolution
// __ Cancion de los CDR (“we are proud of our snitching cells …”)
~
youtube.com/watch?v=_miBpEEhpUg
~
// __ Cuba: los Comité de Defensa de la Revolución celebran 50 años
~
youtube.com/watch?v=oCKFGeB6SEc
~
Here in NYC they have a snitching grid called “nexus” and not only building superintendents and landlords in way more than “each street block”. The NYPD (or “the finest” (as they call themselves)) in some sort of easy Anschluss included in their “nexus” snitching grid not only people working in barbershops (expectedly), threat prevention folks in stores, people driving livery cars, as well as University departments, …
What makes the important difference between what they do, say, in Cuba and in the U.S. is that gringos think because they are hiding in their underwear they are being “smart” about it … (and I am not being sarcastic/metaphorical at all, gringos actually believe that!)
There is this general confusion and/or deliberate attempt at making it all seem like “computers” and gringo IT companies are at fault a la Turing test, Chinese room experiment thing. Yet,computers do not spy on people, it is some kinds of people who would dedicate their lives to snitching and even think of it as being great.
Also, is it so hard for the USG to see the “root causes” of extremist groups’ appeal? Are they kidding us? If they are, one of the things they definitely should improve is their sense of humor.
Satyagraha,
RCL
I would be surprised if even 1% of the Americans who have gone to kill people in the Middle East were Muslim and out of uniform.
There will always be people who don’t like one or don’t tolerate one but so far you are a civil-rights abiding member of the society, there is no need for monitoring.
Anyway, I think all immigrant regardless religion or country of birth deserve a decent introduction to the new country’s legal system and its basic human values.
Can these yahoos not figure out that our drones are perpetuating ALL voilent retaliations??? My g-d they aren’t even close to being smarter than a fifth grader.
Two links and the comment was snagged… (The first comment will probably show up later.)
“So I would propose that citizens be chosen by random lot, and if chosen, would be obliged to invite an FBI agent to dinner.”
… or a Junior Special Agent, perhaps. Good training opportunities…
http://www.fbi.gov/news/videos/junior-special-agents/view
Was to have been a response to Benito Mussolini.
Only the Intercept assuring NSA no one can coordinate shite around here.
If I had to rate u.s. states for racism, utah would come first, and a tie for second would be iowa and minnesota. There’s something fishy going on in the northwest corner states and in arizona(probably not the best place to have one of the worlds biggest dna analytics labs) as well. It’s evident that quebec city is also some type of epicenter.(not that the entire hemisphere isn’t blanketed, and that I know anything about Latin America other than the authorities are powerless to western europeans murdering anyone they want whenever they want.)
I think about the minneapolis Somali community often, while being in one of the more rural areas which is the only plus, it comes off to me as the west’s biggest research location on East Africans, and I’m assuming it’s the underlying reason for it being located there.
I recall driving by a fusion center last year and a woman in hijab in a new suv was driving out of the parking lot, it’s difficult to gauge from a few second encounter but she seemed to have seen me(in a large beard at the time), I think she assumed I was working there and I almost got the sense from her body language that she seemed like the kind of person that deeply hated Muslims for some simplistic personal reasons and she looked like she wanted to injure as many Muslims as she could. It’s because I cannot think of another reason why someone would be jubilant to see someone she apparently thought was a Muslim spy in that location knowing what they do there.
corrections: “rural regions” not “rural areas”.
and “spying on Muslims” not “Muslim spy”
They just can’t help themselves. No matter the stated good intentions, it will always end up as “intelligence gathering”. Do they actually wonder why these groups don’t trust them?
I feel like we need some kind of “constitution check” in the legislative word processor. If a government-funded program has the name of a religion in it, it comes up with a big red outline. I mean, if the government funded an “African Immigrant Christian Coordinated Outreach Program”, we’d know it was an ACLU case because they’re not supposed to be funding or endorsing religion.
Besides, if we had a mixed lecture with anarchists, communists, ecological activists, islamists, and a few white supremacists for flavor, all discussing the line between legitimate political advocacy and material support for terrorism, it’s possible everyone involved, including the government agents, would get the point more clearly.
African Immigrant Muslim Coordinated Outreach Program. “AIMCOP” Really?
Focusing on specific groups can sometimes be problematic. So I would propose that citizens be chosen by random lot, and if chosen, would be obliged to invite an FBI agent to dinner. At the end of the evening, the agent would write a report assessing the threat level posed by that individual and their family, which would go into the secret files maintained by the FBI on each US citizen.
Interacting in such informal settings would be a great way to build trust – better than calling people down to the local police station and questioning them using enhanced interrogation techniques. In particular, it would give the agent an opportunity to interact with the children of the suspects, er, targets of community outreach, who are often less guarded in their responses than their parents.
“So I would propose that citizens be chosen by random lot, and if chosen, would be obliged to invite an FBI agent to dinner.”
…or a Junior Special Agent, perhaps:
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/partnerships_and_outreach/community_outreach/jragent_pg1
http://www.fbi.gov/news/videos/junior-special-agents/view
“So I would propose that citizens be chosen by random lot, and if chosen, would be obliged to invite an FBI agent to dinner.” -Benito Mussolini
… or a Junior Special Agent, perhaps. Good training opportunities…
http://www.fbi.gov/news/videos/junior-special-agents/view
(Not a good day for this writer. Must not have hit the reply button the last time around. My first attempt had two links and was snagged.)
Perhaps it’s more efficient the other way around, Duce. The German Democratic Republic made great use of civilian informants, who, for a number of differing inducements — fear, money, a transfer of suspicion to others, say — could provide the Stasi with many more pairs of eyes and ears in all areas of life, and a sense of uncertainty among the rest, since informants wouldn’t identify themselves and even relatives could be informants.
Also, it’s interesting that the authorities are seeking to recruit youth. Italy once had the Giovinezza, after all. It’s a common method.
_”KESTNER: Your doctor will soon ask you about guns“_
[December 21, 204]
“If you have not been asked by your primary care doctor about whether you keep guns in your home, you soon will be.
“The question is usually asked as ‘Do you keep loaded firearms in your home?’ The answer will be recorded in your health record at your doctor’s office. As part of the Electronic Health Records (EHR) initiative led by the federal government your response may also be collected by the federal government.
“The federal law that launched Obamacare, otherwise known as the Affordable Care Act, includes the question as part of its provisions.”
http://www.murfreesboropost.com/kestner-your-doctor-will-soon-ask-you-about-guns-cms-41109
Excellent points. People can put on a show for an FBI agent, but it’s hard to hide from your own children.
Orwell’s manuals for society are difficult to improve upon.
Re: Benito Mussolini – 21 Jan 2015 at 11:53 am
I don’t think your scheme would mollify the evident need for arbitrary pointless investigation. Would it not be more congruent to assign a paid informant in place of an actual agent the task. Several benefits may well accrue: (1) If things went awry the supervising agent could claim “plausible deniability” (2) The additional cost of the paid informant would secure additional funding for the department budget (3) The agent would then have the option of betraying the paid informant and claiming credit for preventing terrorism. WIN….WIN….WIN!
And of course, the children would experience a first-hand lesson in Justice.
As Usual,
EA
““This is not about gathering intelligence, it’s not about expanding surveillance or any of the things that some people want to claim it is,””
No it’s about having people in place to create entrapment opportunities to justify barbaric foreign policies and outrageous intelligence budgets.