When Saddam Hussein was captured in 2003 by U.S. forces, Iraq War advocates boastfully celebrated the event as proof that they were right and used it to mock war opponents (Joe Lieberman and John Kerry, for instance, gleefully exploited the event to demand that Howard Dean admit his war opposition was wrong). When Muammar Gaddafi was forced by NATO bombing in August 2011 to flee Tripoli, advocates of U.S. intervention played the same game (ThinkProgress gleefully exploited the occasion to try to shame those who objected to the illegality of Obama’s waging the war even after Congress voted against its authorization: as though Gadaffi’s fleeing could render legal Obama’s plainly illegal intervention).
Once Gadaffi was brutally killed by a mob, advocates of intervention threw a giddy party for themselves, celebrating their own rightness and righteousness and declaring Libya a model for future Western interventions. Upon Gadaffi’s fleeing, The New York Times, which editorially supported the war, published a front-page article declaring: “U.S. Tactics in Libya May be a Model for Other Efforts.” While acknowledging that “it would be premature to call the war in Libya a complete success for United States interests,” the paper noted that events had given “Obama’s senior advisers a chance to claim a key victory for an Obama doctrine for the Middle East that had been roundly criticized in recent months as leading from behind.”
Leading war advocates such as Anne-Marie Slaughter and Nick Kristof celebrated themselves as humanitarian visionaries and chided war opponents for being blinkered and overly cynical about the virtues of American force. British and French leaders descended upon Libya to strut around like some sort of conquering heroes, while American and Canadian officials held pompous war victory ceremonies. Hillary Clinton was downright sociopathic, gloating and cackling in an interview when told about Gadaffi’s death by mob: “We came, we saw, he died.” Democratic partisans were drowning in similar bravado (“Unlike the all-hat-no-cattle types we are increasingly seeing over there, [Obama] may take his time, but he does seem to get his man”).

From the start, it was glaringly obvious that all of this was, at best, wildly premature. As I wrote the day after Gadaffi fled, the Democratic claims of vindication were redolent in all sorts of ways of war hawk boasting after Saddam was captured, and were just as irrational: “the real toll of this war (including the number of civilian deaths that have occurred and will occur) is still almost entirely unknown, and none of the arguments against the war (least of all the legal ones) are remotely resolved by yesterday’s events.”
Since 2011, Libya has rapidly unraveled in much the way Iraq did following that invasion: swamped by militia rule, factional warfare, economic devastation, and complete lawlessness. And to their eternal shame, most self-proclaimed “humanitarians” who advocated the Libya intervention completely ignored the country once the fun parts — the war victory dances and mocking of war opponents — were over. The feel-good “humanitarianism” of war advocates, as usual, extended only to the cheering from a safe distance as bombs dropped.
The unraveling of Libya is now close to absolute. Yesterday, the same New York Times editorial page that supported the intervention quoted the U.N.’s Libya envoy Bernardino León as observing: “Libya is falling apart. Politically, financially, the economic situation is disastrous.” The NYT editors forgot to mention that they supported the intervention, but did note that “Libya’s unraveling has received comparatively little attention over the past few months.” In other words, the very same NATO countries that dropped bombs on Libya in order to remove its government collectively ignored the aftermath once their self-celebrations were over.
Into the void of Libya’s predictable disintegration has stepped ISIS, among other groups. ISIS yesterday released a new video showing the beheading of 21 Egyptian Coptic Christians, which they carried out in Libya. This, in turn, led to all sorts of dire warnings about how close ISIS now is to Europe — it “established a direct affiliate less than 500 miles (800 kilometers) from the southern tip of Italy,” warned AP — which in turn has produced calls for re-intervention in Libya.

Yesterday, the U.S.-supported Egyptian regime bombed targets in Libya. Meanwhile, “Italy warned that ISIS is at Europe’s doorstep as France and Egypt called for the United Nations Security Council to meet over the spiraling crisis in Libya.” It’s only a matter of time before another Western “intervention” in Libya becomes conventional wisdom, with those opposed being accused of harboring sympathy for ISIS (just as opponents of Libya intervention the first time around were accused of being indifferent to Gadaffi’s repression).
What we see here is what we’ve seen over and over: the West’s wars creating and empowering an endless supply of enemies, which in turn justify endless war by the West. It was the invasion of Iraq that ushered in “Al Qaeda in Iraq” and ultimately ISIS. It has been the brutal, civilian-slaughtering drone bombing of Yemen which spawned Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula in that country. As Hillary Clinton herself acknowledged, the U.S. helped create Al Qaeda itself by arming, recruiting and funding foreign “Mujahideen” to fight the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan (“the people we are fighting today, we funded 20 years ago”). And now it is the NATO intervention in Libya which has laid the groundwork for further intervention.
That the U.S. would end up intervening in Libya again as a result of the first intervention was painfully obvious. A primary argument of intervention opponents was that the same destruction sown in Iraq from “regime change” would be sown in Libya, and that the U.S. would end up empowering factions that it would later claim it was “obligated” to fight. In October 2012, as Libya was disintegrating, I wrote:
Rather obviously, this was yet another example of the “Mission Accomplished” banner being waved quite prematurely. How many times does it need be proven that merely killing a dictator does not remotely guarantee an improvement from either the perspective of US interests or the people in the country being invaded? And how many more examples do we need where the US funds and arms a fighting force to do its bidding, only to turn around and find that it now must fight that same force?
One can debate whether all of this is done by design or by “accident”: if you realize that U.S. actions create further pretexts for war, then those who do this for a living must realize it, too (their own studies say this); and how many times does something have to happen before “accident” is no longer a viable explanation (as in: oops, our bombing policies keep killing large numbers of civilians, but we keep doing it anyway, and keep claiming it’s all just a terrible “accident”)? But whatever else is true about motive, there is no question that U.S. militarism constantly strengthens exactly that which it is pitched as trying to prevent, and ensures that the U.S. government never loses its supply of reasons to continue its endless war.
Far from serving as a model, this Libya intervention should severely discredit the core selling point of so-called “humanitarian wars.” Some non-governmental advocates of “humanitarian war” may be motivated by the noble aims they invoke, but humanitarianism is simply not why governments fight wars; that is just the pretty wrapping used to sell them.
Finally, Democrats (with validity) love to demand that Iraq War advocates acknowledge their errors and be discredited for their position (unless those advocates happen to be Obama’s Vice President, his two Secretaries of State, his Pentagon chiefs, etc.). We are rapidly approaching the point, if we are not there already, where advocates of “intervention” in Libya should do the same.
Photo Caption: Libyan militias from towns throughout the country’s west parade through Tripoli, Libya selling arms at what once use to be a fish market, Feb. 14, 2012. Credit: Abdel Magid Al Fergany/AP
American backed regime? Egypt and its regime is way out of America’s influence let alon backing? Why else we are buying our arms from the Russians and France now instead of our usual so called allies? We were trying to convince America not to wage that war on Libya as we did in Iraq but no ears were listening on that side.
On the use of the word “terrorist”, for those people who think the definition non-malleable:
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/feb/19/animal-rights-activists-challenge-federal-terrorism-charges?CMP=share_btn_tw
How long do you think it will be before those picketing in front of a bank are deemed damaging to the property or the profit line? How long will it be before something each and every one of us believes we have free speech rights to address find out we’ve been living in a delusion?
http://www.tinyrevolution.com/mt/archives/003210.html
Everything else is a parking dispute.
Superb analysis of cause of extremism among especially Muslim youth:
Whole thing here: http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2015/2/misgovernment-not-religion-has-sunk-the-middle-east.html
So, you recommend that we should have left the previous dictatorship in power? There are no guarantees either. It is up to the people of Libya to straighten out their country. We gave them a chance to do so. They failed.
@Alan Snipes:
How do you intend to address the contradictions and inconsistencies in your language?
“You recommend that we should have left the previous dictatorship in power”
“It’s up to the people of Libya to straighten out their own country”
“We gave them that chance. They failed.
Brilliantly notated reply, Kitt. Apparently, Mr. Snipes was having an “American Exceptionalism” moment.
Hmm about Afghanistan, THEIR loyal jirga voted for foreign forces to stay. THEIR elected president agreed for foreign forces to stay.
Alpha brown, I do believe you’ve lost Mona. If I recall, she’s left a trail of bread-crumbs for CraigSummers en-route to more current articles.
“I’ve never been lost, but I was mighty turned around for three days once.” – Daniel Boone
Sorry to disappoint you, but I am not the type who chases others. I do apologize if I am unable to provide a profound analysis to your spectacular argument!
Alpha brown – you’ve not disappointed, as I have no expectations. You’re not able to provide a profound analysis to a “spectacular argument” as it’s not an argument, it’s an observation.
“We often confuse what we wish for with what is.” – Neil Gaiman, MirrorMask
So, you should save time by observing those from whom you have expectations and by ignoring those who are not able to provide profound analysis.
It is up to the people of Libya to straighten out their country. We gave them a chance to do so.
It’s simply amazing that some western people think that the only thing African has going for it are the “opportunities” supplied by the US at the point of a gun.
*http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/11/24/us-libya-africa-influence-factbox-idUSTRE6AN39Z20101124
**http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/08/libya-africa-investment-idAFLDE72723320110308
My comment is not a defense of Gaddafi who I think was a criminal – in exactly the same mold as other Middle Eastern/African leaders the US and west support. However, by doing the above, and weakening the influence of the US and other western powers in Africa, Gaddafi became persona non grata, so he had to be stopped. Where do you suppose all of that money, those investments, went when the western world began to impose its displeasure? It went straight into western coffers, and not those controlled by hoi polloi.
***http://in.reuters.com/article/2011/03/23/idINIndia-55818620110323
We stole it. We destroyed all the progress it represented for millions and millions of people. And you have the nerve to say we offered them an opportunity and they squandered it. You should be ashamed of yourself.
<emSo, you recommend that we should have left the previous dictatorship in power?
The question you should be asking is,
How do we decide which dictators to keep and which should have their countries destroyed and sent back the Middle Ages?
If you think Ghadafi was a criminal what is your opinion of Bush Blair Clinton Obama ? All perpetrators of wars of aggression the supreme war crime.
Imagine,if you can,that the tables were reversed,and some Libyan,Iraqi,Iranian,Syrian Yemeni,Somalian,Afghani etc. blogger,hoping that the might of the (imaginary,now)Libyan etc. govt. to send its missiles,planes,drones etc. to blow up your people and nation(again and again).How would you feel about it?
The arrogance of the banality of evil.
For those who have been discussing terrorism and its casues in this thread, do see Jana Winter’s Intercept piece today.
Link: https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/02/18/fight-extremists-enemy-proves-allusive/
Mona
“……Well we helped install the Taliban, so it’s nice that we afterward bombed Afghanistan a lot to make up for it……”
The Taliban movement began after the Soviets withdrew from Afghanistan. They rose to prominence in the mid 90s and were supported financially and materially by Pakistan and Saudi Arabia as a way to stabilize Afghanistan with a puppet government – but not the US. In addition, the US did not train the vast majority of the members of the Taliban who were recruited out of the madrasses (in the mid 90s) after becoming refugees during the brutal Soviet occupation. The US was, however, responsible in part for freeing the Afghan people from under the auspices of the Soviet empire. In return, the Taliban turned a blind eye to the Pakistan terrorist training camps responsible for the murder of innocent people world-wide.
According to Ahmed Rashid (“Taliban”):
“…..A handful of Taliban had fought the Soviet Red Army in the 1980s, more had fought the regime of President Najibullah who had hung onto power for four years after Soviet troops withdrew from Afghanistan in 1989, but the vast majority had never fought the communists and were young Koranic students drawn from hundreds of madrassas……that had been set up in Afghan refugee camps in Pakistan…..”
This comments section is stale, Craig. Spending time correcting your false and specious BS is tedious enough when threads are active; not gonna do it when it’s time to move on.
Peter Maass has an award-worthy piece up on the persecution of Stephen Kim: https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/02/18/destroyed-by-the-espionage-act/
Documentarian Stephen Maing has contributed a video about Kim titled “The Surrender,” found at TI here: https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/02/18/the-surrender/
Abandoning Afghanistan after successfully evicting the Soviets was a huge mistake.
You document the consequences accurately.
It was our inaction despite the Afghani efforts on our Cold War behalf that can be represented as “installing” the Taliban though.
We owed them better.
But if we had stayed, then the US would have been accused of exploiting the natural resources and occupying Afghanistan (and it’s not a great place for occupying armies!!). None the less, we could have done more to help the Afghan people out. That’s true.
Our military was never there, so we could not “”stay”, so occupation doesn’t come into play.
Funding their development would have been the way to go.
Doing it without exploitation, which some may say would have been atypical for us, would have been fair compensation for their sacrifices.
BTW Craig
Afghanistan was one of those no boots on the ground interventions where the CIA covertly supplied funding, weapons, training and logistics and partnered with Saudi Arabia… which you categorize as “minimal involvement” not interventions… y’know, just like Syria.
Coincidentally, it was also a poorly kept secret, but it allowed the defenders of the establishment to deny involvement.
No. There is no comparison between Afghanistan and Syria – much as you want to believe they are the same. And just like Syrian President is totally the blame in Syria, the Soviets were totally the blame for THEIR invasion, occupation two million deaths and every refugee who became members of the Taliban.
I detail the similarities, and you just deny without providing any differences… and then you repeat your shameful “the guy defending his country from terrorists is to blame for ALL the killing” line.
Better step up your game.
You said you were honest in an earlier comment, so backing up your denials in the face of facts will be necessary, or nobody is going to want to waste their time engaging.
The blatant inaccuracies in your previous comment just left ignored does not present well either.
I won’t hold it against you for very long if you admit you just didn’t know something.
But just ignoring it? I will hold a grudge.
Don’t do this to our budding friendship!
@ Craig Summers:
Actually the Soviets were invited into Afghanistan by the existing recognized government of Afghanistan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_in_Afghanistan
It is called cut and run. It is how we Americans do it after we have “routed” the foreign enemy. We’ve done this before and will perhaps do it again.
“……It is called cut and run…..”
You can hardly blame them. The Soviets were near economic collapse without achieving anything – so they left.
The reply lightly [edited] because it needed some light editing:
“Mr Greenwald:
This [reply] is another attempt on [my] part to deflect [from the many] brutal act[s] of terror [and oppression] committed by [the US and its client’s such as the [Saudi, “moderate” Syrian rebels, and other Western-supported] terrorists who [regularly murder, sometimes by beheading] Christians [and many others who include their own as well as Filipina, Sri Lankan, Nigerian, Indonesian and Pakistani nationals. Just between August 4 and 22, 2014 alone, the Saudi’s beheaded at least 22 people – more than one every day – some of whom confessed as they were interrogated with enhancement; it’s only torture if someone Washington doesn’t like does the same thing – including one man who lost his head for the crime of “sorcery”]. But the Saudi’s are our friends.
As [I] typically do, [I] attempt to [hold] the West blame[less] for the rise of Islamic terrorists like ISIS [which didn’t exist until the US destroyed Iraq, and which is heavily armed with US weapons and funded by the Saudis. So you see: the US is blameless]. At the same time, [I clumsily] avoid mentioning an[ything] of [relevance about your article and change the subject to an] attack in Holland…free speech (again)…Jews…[[all sorts of random stuff]. We can surely expect an[other series of non sequiturs] soon by [me] at the Intercept who will quote [something. Then I will say something absurd].
I guess someone forgot to tell the ISIS that Coptic Christians don’t “occupy” Islamic holy land in Israel. [See? That really was soon.] We all still understand, Mr. Greenwald, that [I] believe that the US and Israel are [blameless] in the world. Islamic terrorism – like ISIS and their beheading of the Coptic Christians and murder of Shiites – is [a lot more than] simply “blowback” against the twenty-first century “crusade” by western imperialists i.e., racist anti-Muslim policies, killing of Muslims, use of drones and invasions etc, [but merely considering the possibility that there just might be some flaws in US policies and its many wars is something I can’t do].
Finally, [I am] clueless what Libya might have looked like without any intervention. It could look exactly the way that Syria looks today [after much intervention. Or maybe it could look like something else. Who knows what this non-argument is supposed to prove?]. In [Bahrain, Egypt, Gaza, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, all sorts of places, the US and its clients regularly and] brutally put down a[ny hint of a] democracy movement leading to the murders of [hundreds of thousands of] Muslims. [Three other things, in no particular order:] Iran [which hasn’t invaded anyone in over 200 years and has been under US led and funded attacks by terrorists, cyber warfare, and economic sanctions even though it is the enemy of ISIS. Obviously, Iran must be the root of much evil throughout the Middle East , Hezbollah [which came into existence as a direct result of US-backed aggression in Lebanon] and Russia (I don’t have to remind you how many Russian troops and Russian “private contractors” are wondering around the Middle East or how many oil-rich countries they’ve invaded]. I can hardly argue [rationally, so here’s an entirely unrelated straw man:] you [don’t] argue Rwanda would have been worse off with intervention even though Rwanda in the aftermath might not have been stable politically.
[Here’s another absurdity:] because the political environment is unstable today, getting rid of the dictator could still pave the way for future stability in a more democratic state [though decades of Western oppression and violence have uniformly led to just the opposite. It’s sorta’ like believing that if I kick over enough hornet’s nests, sooner or later and despite what always happens when a hornet’s nest is kicked over, I’m bound to make some hornets happy.] The same could happen in Iraq or even Syria [or maybe some hornet’s nest somewhere]. It cannot happen while those [previously US-supported before they displeased the West] dictators remained in power [by design: Western interventions have consistently thwarted independence and democracy in the Middle East] – especially Assad and Saddam Hussein [don’t you just love that photo of him shaking hands with a young Donald Rumsfeld delivering wartime satellite and tactical support?] who was responsible for close to [oh, I don’t know; let’s just make up a number:] 2,000,000 deaths.
By the way, intervention in Libya was primarily driven by France and Britain [and that makes it okay] who pushed for humanitarian [because it’s always humanitarian when the good people of the West do it] intervention in the wake of the Arab Spring [brutally crushed in Bahrain and Egypt with the support of the US] and a potential massacre by another [previously tolerated and backed by the West until he fell into disfavor] Middle East dictator. The ongoing conflict in Syria should be a reminder of the geopolitical complexities that are outside of the control of western intervention [so naturally I’m constantly trying to rationalize western intervention into the geopolitical complexities that are outside of the control of western intervention]. There are obviously no guarantees in intervention – or in non intervention [except non-intervention guarantees that we aren’t violently oppressing, killing and pissing-off a lot of people thousands of miles away. Sure, there’s that, but otherwise there’s obviously no guarantees].”
“That’s right. Muslim extremists kill over blasphemy and conflate all Jews with Zionism.” Mona
What? I thought what happened in France was a “domestic issue”. Are you confusing me? So an international Muslim extremist organization will kill over blasphemy as well? In that case it is not a domestic issue then. It is an international issue since Al Qaeda that kills over blasphemy is all over the world. So we have to review your argument. Al Qaeda did not attack French citizens because of France foreign policies or France freedom. It attacked France because France allows its citizens the FREEDOM to offend any religions. Is that correct? Is that your new argument now?
Do you think it is possible to apply that argument in Nigeria? Al Qaeda is not attacking Nigerian kids because of Nigeria foreign policies or “freedom”. It attacks those kids because in those schools they are FREE to learn other subjects besides what Al Qaeda desires. Is that correct?
A-Qadea has never attacked Nigeria. Boko haram is a completely domestic issue for Nigeria. The origins of Boko haram predate the existence of Al-Qadea. The relationship they have is the desire of an Islamic caliphate. They are Al-Qadea linked to give the Americans more justifications to set up AFRICOM. How do I know this? I’m from that part of the world myself. Stop relying on your media echo chambers.
“A-Qadea has never attacked Nigeria. Boko haram is a completely domestic issue for Nigeria. The origins of Boko haram predate the existence of Al-Qadea. The relationship they have is the desire of an Islamic caliphate.”
Well, since you are part of that area yourself, which basically means you have all the information necessary to back up your claims, so feel free to share it with us. Present your evidence that the US State Department, The United Nations Security Council, and the Associated Press are all together in that conspiracy to “link” Boko Haram and Al Qaeda. Moreover, maybe you can explain us how an organization that attacks Nigeria, Chad, and Cameroon, is just a “domestic” issue pertaining to Nigeria.
http://www.un.org/press/en/2014/sc11410.doc.htm
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/31/us-nigeria-bokoharam-idUSTRE80U0LR20120131
“A-Qadea has never attacked Nigeria. Boko haram is a completely domestic issue for Nigeria. The origins of Boko haram predate the existence of Al-Qadea. The relationship they have is the desire of an Islamic caliphate.”
Well, since you are part of that area yourself, which basically means you have all the information necessary to back up your claims, so feel free to share it with us. Present your evidence that the US State Department, The United Nations Security Council, and the Associated Press are all together in that conspiracy to “link” Boko Haram and Al Qaeda. Moreover, maybe you can explain us how an organization that attacks Nigeria, Chad, and Cameroon, is just a “domestic” issue pertaining to Nigeria.
ww.un.org/press/en/2014/sc11410.doc.htm
ww.reuters.com/article/2012/01/31/us-nigeria-bokoharam-idUSTRE80U0LR20120131
France allows its citizens the FREEDOM to offend any religions? not all of them, you know.
What a relief to have a sane online publication to read, after the shameless propaganda rags that make up todays MSM. It really does appear that it has been the intention for decades to turn the middle east into a large proving ground for weapons and tactics of all sorts, not to mention the billions made by military contractors and paid for us and future generation. All that’s left is for a nuclear device to be exploded somewhere, and they will make the Iraq War look like Grenada by comparison. BTW whatever happened to Baghdadi? Not much in the press about him after just a day or two saying he had been killed, even though he was supposed to be at the head of the whole thing… I hate when the scriptwriters don’t tie up loose ends!!
Thank you very very much for the evidence that the US “financed the Taliban” with a $43 million in 2001 in a country of 29 million people.
This is secretary Collin Powell on May 17, 2001 supporting the evidence you provided:
“We distribute our assistance in Afghanistan through international agencies of the United Nations and non-governmental organizations,” “We provide our relief to the people of Afghanistan, not to Afghanistan’s ruling factions. Our aid bypasses the Taliban, who have done little to alleviate the suffering of the Afghan people, and indeed have done much to exacerbate it.” Colin Powell, May 17 2011 commenting on $43 million grant to Afghanistan.
ww.monitor.net/monitor/0109a/copyright/talibandrugwarmoney.html
I have to admit it. You have a talent in providing compelling evidence counselor!
Can you please share with us the evidence that the US “put Mullah Omar” in power? The money and weapons the US gave the Mujahideen were to fight the soviets. That is not an evidence that the US put the Taliban in power years after the soviets left. I am sure you will surprise us with another compelling evidence.
Oh, well, the U.S. government says it gave the Taliban govt $43 million that didn’t benefit the Taliban govt. If the U.S. govt says something so peculiar, Alpha Brown believes it.
Ted Galen Carpenter at CATO is a highly credible source whom you offer no reason to doubt.
Counselor,
A top representative of the US government, Colin Powell stated that the US government did not give $43 million to the Taliban, but to third parties such as United Nations and other NGOs. Government officials say many things. They lie, they tell the truth, they twist the truth etc…but at the end the burden of proof is on the accuser not on the accused. OPINIONS are not evidence counselor. There is nothing in Carpenter’s OPINION that proved that Colin Powell specifically lied about the receiver of that $43 million. Any evidence of the contrary would have been easy to obtain since the funds were not part of a secret program. It was a program open to the public to scrutinize.
Oh, well, the U.S. government says it gave the Taliban govt $43 million that didn’t benefit the Taliban govt. If the U.S. govt says something so peculiar, Alpha Brown believes it.
Ted Galen Carpenter at CATO is a highly credible source whom you offer no reason to doubt.
I am not sure why the re post. I have already thanked you for the compelling evidence you provided. You know very well a jury will take no more than fifteen minutes to find the US government guilty of financing the Taliban based on the opinion you provided. As I admitted, you do have a rare talent when it comes to providing compelling evidence to back up your serious accusations.
you seem to forget osama bin laden on top of a US tank, armed with us provided weapons in Afghanistan some 20 years back……
Since the US provided weapons “20 years back for a completely different mission, then the US is responsible for what happened years after the mission was completed? Is that your logic?
The poster known as Alpha Brown
Wandered in to Greenwald’s town.
Accusing this, asserting that,
Talking thru his quirky hat.
Rapacious, like Steb’s writhing wraith,
He argues, but not in good faith.
“He argues, but not in good faith”
I am aware that challenging Greenwald in his “town” is not really allowed. Those who dare questioning his articles are subject to personal attacks, offensive, obscene remarks and ultimately censorship. What happened to Steb? Did you guys censor him/her after your town hall meeting?
Don’t know where Steb has gone to, but he has not been banned or otherwise modded. Your claim that those who disagree with Glenn’s articles are ultimately censored is a lie.
Not really a claim, more like an assumption based on the FACT that some commentators with a history of criticizing Greenwald cannot post their comments after a few months. That is up to you and your Great Leader to provide the acceptable explanations for this situation.
That’s a lie. If it’s not, you can name three such critics who can’t comment after a few months. But it is a lie, so you can’t.
1) Steb has allowed me to name him/her as one of the commentators whose comments cannot get posted regardless of the time, or the length of the comment
2) Ninja has allowed me to name him/her as one of the commentators whose comments cannot get posted regardless of the time, or the length of the comment
I know two other individuals who just disregard the site because their comments cannot be posted. I do not have their permission to name their nickname here.
That is up to the Intercept to explain technical problems in order to avoid negative assumptions.
Trollio..
Do you three ‘chilly cats’ share the same cubicle together?? How’s ‘Banana Beach’ this time of the season?
A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InaRIYFPMiY Production (aka – “bullshit”)
Dipshit(s) Anonymous
3:05 am “What happened to Steb? Did you guys censor him/her after your town hall meeting?”
7:38 am “Steb has allowed me to name him/her as one of the commentators whose comments cannot get posted”
If you know Steb, then you know s/he has not been modded. As for Ninja, I can’t recall such an account. But I know for a fact that no one is modded for viewpoint, and certainly not for criticizing Glenn. Ever.
Does. Not. Happen.
In the ten years Glenn has been running a comments section I and several other readers have had input into his policy, and we are in 100% agreement in principle with Glenn. (I’m not sure I agree on one particular application that occurred at Salon.)
He disallows crapflooding, regardless of viewpoint; he has modded at least two supporters on the basis of unwanted volume of what Glenn perceived to be vapid commentary. (There were some hurt feelings.) There have been several dozen bans over the years for the viewpoint-neutral crapflooding violation.
Several of us are in positions to know who Glenn has modded here at TI. Steb is not one of them. He’s not a crapflooder.
End of.
how do you contact other people posting on this site? or are all of you the same one? or all of you are posting from the same room, employed to do so?
We are all employed by a Top Secret G65 government program. I wish I could tell you more.
@Mona
“and to ignore the impact of US intervention on press freedom in Afghanistan.” Alpha brown
“You mean Glenn ignores the degradation of press freedom in Afghanistan after we financed and put the Taliban in power? Well, that’s not really his beat….” Mona
No, I mean the explosive growth of newspapers, TV stations, radios after the US INTERVENED and toppled the Taliban, which made it illegal to even listen to music!!
You do not need to remind me that is not his “beat”. His beat is to remind us how bad the US intervention was because Afghanistan has not reached the level of Finland in terms of democracy.
Well we helped install the Taliban, so it’s nice that we afterward bombed Afghanistan a lot to make up for it.
“Well we helped install the Taliban, so it’s nice that we afterward bombed Afghanistan a lot to make up for it.”
Ohh my Goodness!!! What an amazing argument!!!
WOW!! Impressive argument!!
The comments from Mona are very instructive. Firstly, I learned that if Al Qaeda recruits a young Nigerian, train him and send him to blow a passenger plane bound to America it has to do with “Western foreign policies” based on the report that states “Muslims do not hate our freedom, they hate our policies”. However, if Al Qaeda recruits young French citizens, train them and send them to kill French cartoonists and Jews, then it is not about French foreign policies or French freedom, it is more like a “domestic issue” similar to the Timothy McVeigh terrorist attack in the US. Secondly, I just learned through Mona again, that the US put the Taliban in power and financed it. I am still waiting for her evidence that I am sure she will share with us.
I am also waiting patiently for her well informed analysis on Al Qaeda reasoning for attacking school children in Nigeria, Cameroon…through Boko Haram. I am guessing it has nothing to do with the freedom of going to school and learn. It is probably a “domestic issue”.
You really should read the Der Spiegel in-depth profile of Chérif and Saïd Kouachi, titled Terror from the Fringes: Searching for Answers in the “Charlie Hebdo” Attacks. I posted the link earlier, but of course, I cannot make you read it. The support for my thesis is abundant therein, so please do finally read it: http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/charlie-hebdo-attackers-radicalized-in-search-for-identity-a-1013475.html
Of course I read it. Basically an international terrorist organization recruited vulnerable youngsters from France to perform terrorist attacks on its behalf. That is the same organization that recruited a young vulnerable Nigerian man to perform a terrorist attack on its behalf. I got your point. If that organization attacks US citizens, it is because of “Western policies” because Muslims do not hate our freedom, they hate our policies. However, if that organization attacks French cartoonists and Jews, then it is a “domestic issue”. I have a good understanding of your analysis. I am waiting for your analysis regarding the reasons the same organization attacks school children in West Africa.
Why?
Why?
It is very simple. Your argument is heavily based on this statement that you seem to love “Muslims do not hate our freedom, they hate our policies”. The report was about the same terrorist organizations who are killing people in Africa, Pakistan, France, America…. You have presented a very logical argument that killing French cartoonists has nothing to do with a hate of France freedom, but a lot to do with domestic issues. I am just wondering whether you might know why the same terrorists mainly from Al Qaeda who killed the French cartoonists due to “domestic issues” are attacking school children in Africa. Those terrorists have consistently stated they are attacking those kids because they are against western values, education and freedom. However, your analysis are so impressive I think everybody should rely on them to explain this phenomenon, not on the explanation provided by the terrorist themselves.
I, like the Defense Science Board, rely greatly — even primarily — on the explanations provided by the reputed terrorists themselves.
Yes, the poverty and alienation many poor Muslim males experience in France leaves them open to the lure of local zealots like the the self-proclaimed imam Farid Benyettou, who broke them from their mosque and peddled Salafism to the boys. He became their guru. Alienated youth, but especially males, can easily fall prey to such figures. It’s a problem in many societies, including ours.
Do not worry. I have already stated that I understand your very logical analysis. Al Qaeda did not take advantage of these vulnerable young kids, trained them and sent them to kill journalists who offended Islam and Jewish shoppers (because they were Jews) because of France “freedom”. The well planned terrorist operations from an organization located thousand of miles away from France in the tribal areas of Yemen were the result of “domestic issues” not the result of that organizations hate for France freedom of expression. So France just has to improve its socialist system, reduce poverty and Al Qaeda will not attempt to kill cartoonists or Jews in France. Voila!!
(I wonder how France should deliver an arrest warrant to the Al Qaeda members in Yemen who planned the attack, and who are probably planning more attacks. Any ideas?)
That’s right. Muslim extremists kill over blasphemy and conflate all Jews with Zionism. Young males will kill for such a cause just as some will follow the directions of the “Army of God” in the U.S. and shoot abortionists and blow up clinics. These alienated young men thus gain a view of themselves as important soldiers of the Almighty.
I already cited some facts. But even after Reagan and the Cold-War era funding for the Mujahideen, W lavished money on the Taliban. From the CATO Institute (my emphasis):
———————————————————
How Washington Funded the Taliban
By Ted Galen Carpenter
August 2, 2002
The United States has made common cause with an assortment of dubious regimes around the world to wage the war on drugs. Perhaps the most shocking example was Washington’s decision in May 2001 to financially reward Afghanistan’s infamous Taliban government for its edict ordering a halt to the cultivation of opium poppies.
When the Taliban implemented a ban on opium cultivation in early 2001, U.S. officials were most complimentary. James P. Callahan, director of Asian Affairs for the State Department’s Bureau of International Narcotics and Law Enforcement Affairs, uncritically relayed the alleged accounts of Afghan farmers that “the Taliban used a system of consensus-building” to develop and carry out the edict. That characterization was more than a little suspect because the Taliban was not known for pursuing consensus in other aspects of its rule. Columnist Robert Scheer was justifiably scathing in his criticism of the U.S. response. “That a totalitarian country can effectively crack down on its farmers is not surprising,” Sheer noted, but he considered it “grotesque” for a U.S. official to describe the drug-crop crackdown in such benign terms.
Yet the Bush administration did more than praise the Taliban’s proclaimed ban of opium cultivation. In mid-May, 2001, Secretary of State Colin Powell announced a $43 million grant to Afghanistan in addition to the humanitarian aid the United States had long been providing to agencies assisting Afghan refugees. Given Callahan’s comment, there was little doubt that the new stipend was a reward for Kabul’s anti-drug efforts. That $43 million grant needs to be placed in context. Afghanistan’s estimated gross domestic product was a mere $2 billion. The equivalent financial impact on the U.S. economy would have required an infusion of $215 billion. In other words, $43 million was very serious money to Afghanistan’s theocratic masters.
To make matters worse, U.S. officials were naive to take the Taliban edict at face value. The much-touted crackdown on opium poppy cultivation appears to have been little more than an illusion. Despite U.S. and UN reports that the Taliban had virtually wiped out the poppy crop in 2000-2001, authorities in neighboring Tajikistan reported that the amounts coming across the border were actually increasing. In reality, the Taliban gave its order to halt cultivation merely to drive up the price of opium the regime had already stockpiled.
Even if the Taliban had tried to stem cultivation for honest reasons, U.S. cooperation with that regime should have been morally repugnant. Among other outrages, the Taliban government prohibited the education of girls, tortured and executed political critics, and required non-Muslims to wear distinctive clothing—a practice eerily reminiscent of Nazi Germany’s requirement that Jews display the Star of David on their clothing. Yet U.S. officials deemed none of that to be a bar to cooperation with the Taliban on drug policy.
Even if the Bush administration had not been dissuaded by moral considerations, it should have been by purely pragmatic concerns. There was already ample evidence in the spring of 2001 that the Taliban was giving sanctuary to Osama bin Laden’s al-Qaeda network that had bombed two U.S. embassies in East Africa. For the State Department to ignore that connection and agree to subsidize the Taliban was inexcusably obtuse. Scheer was on the mark when he concluded, “The war on drugs has become our own fanatics’ obsession and easily trumps all other concerns.”
Washington’s approach came to an especially calamitous end in September 2001 when the Taliban regime was linked to bin Laden’s terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon that killed some 3,000 people. Moreover, evidence quickly emerged that the Taliban all along had been collecting millions of dollars in profits from the illicit drug trade, with much of that money going into the coffers of the terrorists. Rarely is there such graphic evidence of the bankruptcy of U.S. drug policy.
Thank you very very much for the evidence that the US “financed the Taliban” with a $43 million in 2001 in a country of 29 million people.
This is secretary Collin Powell on May 17, 2001 supporting the evidence you provided:
“We distribute our assistance in Afghanistan through international agencies of the United Nations and non-governmental organizations,” “We provide our relief to the people of Afghanistan, not to Afghanistan’s ruling factions. Our aid bypasses the Taliban, who have done little to alleviate the suffering of the Afghan people, and indeed have done much to exacerbate it.” Colin Powell, May 17 2011 commenting on $43 million grant to Afghanistan.
ww.monitor.net/monitor/0109a/copyright/talibandrugwarmoney.html
I have to admit it. You have a talent in providing compelling evidence counselor!
Can you please share with us the evidence that the US “put Mullah Omar” in power? The money and weapons the US gave the Mujahideen were to fight the soviets. That is not an evidence that the US put the Taliban in power years after the soviets left. I am sure you will surprise us with another compelling evidence.
The key difference for many of these people is that many Americans died when our government laid waste to Iraq. Vanishingly few Americans died during the Libyan war, so it’s not even on most people’s radar.
Yes, and while the press in the US screams “black lives matter”, it seems a little hypocritical that they are not screaming “Middle Eastern, and African lives matter”. Obama is not more virtuous for having caused the deaths of t
Here’s an article from a Norwegian newspaper from October 28th 2011, where Anders Fogh Rasmussen and Jens Stoltenberg praises he Libya intervention as NATO’s most successful intervention ever. Stoltenberg is cited as saying: “Now it’s important for Libya to establish a stable and democratic government that can provide safety and development to the Libyan people. Norway will support Libya in this important phase.” I wonder what he did, and what he’s intent on doing now that he’s the head of NATO. http://www.vg.no/nyheter/utenriks/norge-i-krig/libya-operasjonen-den-mest-vellykkede-noensinne/a/10023098/
CNN’s present “apocalypse” top article presently points to an interesting essay on this sort of issue for Egypt, the moral being that when you don’t know what you’re doing best not to take sides. What do you think?
http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/uploads/Documents/other/Shamir-speech-20141023.pdf
What we don’t know is whether Lybia would have unraveled anyways without western intervention. And even if it didnt, whether the orher outcome would have been any better.
Yes, Donald Rumsfeld’s alliterative contribution to foreign policy discourse, the “unknown, unknowns” dilemma.
More of Rumsfeld’s wisdom can be found here:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/05/19/rumsfeld-s-rules-review-good-rules-shame-he-didn-t-follow-them.html
As the Daily Beast author notes, it’s just too bad Rummy didn’t follow his own “rules.”
“I am constant as the northern star,
Of whose true-fix’d and resting quality
There is no fellow in the firmament.”
– Caesar
Shakespeare’s Julius Caesar
While I am not supporting any US-actions, and I believe they do create tragic messes more oftern than success, writing about the roots of the Libyan disaster without mention of the homegrown civil war that was well underway before the French-led intervention reeks of ethnocentrism.
I happened to see Susan Rice in the airport in Chiang Mai Thailand, travelling with a friend. The lounge was empty so I rocked up and gave her the full treatment. Said she would always be remembered for coining the Orwellian term “humanitarian bombing”. She engaged for a moment, then retreated into her smug “I and my boss are oh-so-much smarter than you little peon”. I did not relent: “how is it that Gaddafi could go from receiving a Humanitarian award from the UN and dining with Tony Blair to the Worst Guy in the World in less than a year? Was it the fact that UniCredito Bank in Italy owed Gaddafi billions they did not feel like repaying? Were you worried Gaddafi’s gold-backed pan-African dinar currency would upset the US Dollar Ponzi? Or were you just trying to add another zero to the bank balances of the billionaires who manufacture all of the military hardware?” She was travelling without a security detail but she certainly looked like she wished she had one.
For those still confused as to why Western interventions have not worked in the Middle East, and in fact around the globe, and why they will not unless the methodology changes:
Understanding the Problem
Strategic communication is a vital component of U.S. national security. It is in crisis, and it must be transformed with a strength of purpose that matches our commitment to diplomacy, defense, intelligence, law enforcement, and homeland security. Presidential leadership and the bipartisan political will of Congress are essential. Collaboration between government and the private sector on an unprecedented scale is imperative.
To succeed, we must understand the United States is engaged in a generational and global struggle about ideas, not a war between the West and Islam. It is more than a war against the tactic of terrorism. We must think in terms of global networks, both government and non-government. If we continue to concentrate primarily on states (“getting it right” in Iraq, managing the next state conflict better), we will fail.
Strategic communication requires a sophisticated method that maps perceptions and influence networks, identifies policy priorities, formulates objectives, focuses on “doable tasks,” develops themes and messages, employs relevant channels, leverages new strategic and tactical dynamics, and monitors success. This approach will build on in-depth knowledge of other cultures and factors that motivate human behavior. It will adapt techniques of skillful political campaigning, even as it avoids slogans, quick fixes, and mind sets of winners and losers. It will search out credible messengers and create message authority. It will seek to persuade within news cycles, weeks, and months. It will engage in a respectful dialogue of ideas that begins with listening and assumes decades of sustained effort. Just as importantly, through evaluation and feedback, it will enable political leaders and policymakers to make informed decisions on changes in strategy, policies, messages, and choices among instruments of statecraft.
– United States Defense Science Board Task Force, 2004
In short, if you do all of your machinations in the dark and with ill defined objectives, not only can you not find your ass with both hands, you’ll end up with your head in it.
We’re not even following our own advice. How’s that for self-induced hypocrisy.
Glenn’s column today is again, spot on. The deliberate amnesia of most US media is appalling and responsible for the continued repetition of failed policies.
While some primitive “thinkers” believe more war is always the answer, the obvious facts of recent US wars is inescapable. Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Somalia, etc. demonstrate that even sustained, ferocious US military action can’t turn pigs ears into purses. These places were ruled by nasty dictators because as cobbled together nation states, this is what works. Formerly, these were kings (in every instance) but now they are simply dictators using some thin ideological justification or none at all.
The US should leave people alone to determine their own fates. Same with the “Islamic State.” That will collapse (or not) of its own accord. Yes, terrible things happen, but the US is not a Godlike entity set to determine the fate of all nations on the planet.
Aside from Egypt and most of the Arabian peninsula states, most Middle Eastern states are “failed” in the sense they are artificially created and usually propped up by unsustainable economics. This includes Israel. Either finite oil wealth or outside subsidies keep regimes and governments in power. Force keeps boundaries more or less stable, most of the time. When force is removed, states quickly fall apart into natural regional/ethnic enclaves.
The Gods of Washington DC care nothing about reality. Only about exercising military power to terrify others. These Gods care nothing about civilian deaths or the realities of the places they re-make with drone power into something “new.”
Recent lessons of these policies must not be ignored or consigned into the Memory Hole. We must not ignore who is responsible for this sad state of affairs.
Yep. Fucking up the world, one country at a time. We’re very good at it.
“One can debate whether all of this is done by design or by accident”:
Debate? The NYTs,Guardian (& other sock puppet papers) do not even whisper this debate. This is about as far as they get:
“Some blame NATO for not following up with political support after its air campaign; ”
Some of the neocon humanitarians might have some regrets:
“Nato was midwife to Libya’s revolution, its bombing the key to victory, but alliance leaders now look on aghast at the result, not least the growth of Isis. ”
I will not vouch for Chris Stephen but he has documented this clusterF*ck. Some of the Guardian’s re-intervention highlights:
http://www.theguardian.com/profile/chris-stephen
– With oil exports plunging, the country is surviving on fast-depleting foreign reserves. Libya will soon run out of money to feed itself…
– Scheme for UK, US, Italy and Turkey to train Libyan recruits has been beset with problems, but a standoff over money is main hurdle
– Libya apologises for detaining UN officer on suspicion of black magic
– US navy Seals take over oil tanker seized by Libyan rebels:
In Libya, US ambassador Deborah Jones, who described the rebel actions last week as “theft from the Libyan people”, tweeted: “Yes we can” in reaction to the operation last March: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/17/navy-seals-oil-tanker-morning-glory-libyan-rebels
This article and most of the comments afterward are cloying.
They are replete with dated misrepresentations which only reinforce the problem.
$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$
The chief misrepresentations repeated here are –
1. The democrats and the republicans are opposition parties.
2. The warmongering in Iraq, Afghanistan, Israel, Palestine, Libya, Syria, Egypt,……. should be seen as separate from each other.
3. These profit-driven atrocities have all developed inadvertently.
4. The governments in Europe and the United States are not driven and controlled by the same power.
$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$
These false representations will only continue expanding the sadistic perversity every time they are accepted and repeated.
Stop deceiving yourselves.
Stop supporting these sadistic liars.
Start seeing the continuity of the corporate corruption behind these warmongering predators.
All of these atrocities are the inevitable result of people’s complicity in lies.
You forgot number five:
5. Anything written by Craig Summers
I resemble that remark…..
Have to agree with Clark. Recall that in the late 1990s, it was Unocal and the CIA financing and arming the Taliban (and al Qaeda) to conquer Kabul, and while they would allow the single Taliban jet pilot to live in America, and journey frequently back to Afghanistan for bombing runs on the Northern Alliance, they would not allow in the leader of the Northern Alliance, Ahmad Shah Massoud, who attempted to warn the USA of an impending terrorist attack on US soil (09/11/01).
Two days prior to 9/11/01, the Greal Lion of Afghanistan, Mr. Massoud, was murdered by two al Qaeda suicide bombers posing as journalists.
And the intrepid DIA analyst and agent, Julie Sirrs, who had brought back this warning and much more data on the Taliban and al Qaeda from Pakistan and Afghanistan, was forced out of the DIA.
Wonder if the CIA was involved in the original financing of ISIS?
In general, I love the article (as I do Mr. Greenwald’s work in general). However, one part of this article left me scratching my head. Perhaps I’ve missed something. With regard to, “how many times does something have to happen before “accident” is no longer a viable explanation”, it seems that Greenwald’s usage of ‘accident’ is different than the usage by the parties referred to. Certainly car crashes happen repeatedly; everybody knows this occurs and expects that they will continue to happen. It is quite conventional for people to refer to these car crashes as “accidents” irrespective to the awareness that they happen on an ongoing basis. I can appreciate his point, but I guess I found the argument a bit silly given this obvious explanation.
Let’s look at one of the guys doing the fighting in Libya….
Guess what, long before Obama bombed Libya…America sent in a CIA trained former Libyan general to overthrow the Libyan government, …starting the fight that Obama then used as pretext to bomb the nation:
“Is General Khalifa Hifter The CIA’s Man In Libya?
The new leader of Libya’s opposition military spent the past two decades in suburban Virginia but felt compelled — even in his late-60s — to return to the battlefield in his homeland, according to people who know him.
…The likelihood that Hifter was brought in to be some kind of asset is pretty high. Just as figures like Ahmed Chalabi were cultivated for a post-Saddam Iraq, Hifter may have played a similar role as American intelligence prepared for a chance in Libya.
We do need to ask to what extent the Libyan uprising is a proxy battle, with the United States far more involved that it would care to admit. Certainly, Qaddafi has been on the “to-remove” list for a very long time. But after something of a rapprochement, he again became a major irritant in recent years.”
http://www.businessinsider.com/the-cias-man-in-libya-2011-4
What is Khalifa Haftar up to now?
“Haftar said that he planned to bring the war to Tripoli, and to Misrata, but dismissed the possibility of widespread carnage. “Tripoli will be overrun quickly, because the people will rise up, and we have forces inside the city,” he said.
“What about dialogue?” I asked.
“There will be no dialogue with terrorism,” Haftar replied. “The only thing to say about terrorism is that we will fight it until it’s defeated, and we have purified the country.””
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/02/23/unravelling
Thank you JLocke for bringing up General Kalifa Hiftar … who’s been back for a couple of years In Libya in the field of war thanks to the being kept in training by the Guyz from Langley …. If “The Intercept” is part of a sports metaphor, there should have been someone up in the pressbox announcing a new player brought into the bloodsport game of U.S. Triumphalism in North America. Hiftar didn’t sneak onto the field; he’s been trained in the U.S. for years [just like General Sisi now the President of Egypt after the elected Muslim Brotherhood candidate was deposed and jailed] and is now doing exactly what the CIA coaches tell him to do.
Let’s, for the sake of comparison, say a general is a Quarterback, calling all the plays on the field, scoring time and time again whether he runs with the ball, side-passes it off to other players on his team, or throws it to the intended receiver for a completed catch.The game advances unless there’s a strong defense [ from the home team that’s recruiting new talent ].
The Intercept is only one of the strategies for a defense with the game already in motion.
We’re all getting brain concussions!
And the conclusion is that the US should not intervene anywhere regardless of its interests or its international obligations. Is that it? About under UN mandate?
By the way Greenwald, the RSF Press Index Freedom for Afghanistan is 122 and the one for Venezuela is 137 for this year.
“It’s interests and International obligations”. Two responses; George Washington; John Adams. Two guys Alpha never heard of!
“And the conclusion is that the US should not intervene anywhere regardless of its interests or its international obligations. Is that it?”
Well, which is it? Interests or international obligations?
“Libya oil eyed by Western companies
By Steve Hargreaves @CNNMoney October 25, 2011: 8:57 AM ET
NEW YORK (CNNMoney) — Western oil companies are eager to jump back into Libya, but without strong oil laws there they are hesitant to invest the billions of dollars needed to boost production.
Before the fighting broke out, the country produced about 1.6 million barrels of oil per day. Of that, the Libyan National Oil Company controlled about 1.1 million.
A handful of Western oil companies, including Italy’s Eni (E), France’s Total (TOT) and ConocoPhillips (COP, Fortune 500), Marathon (MRO, Fortune 500), Hess (HES, Fortune 500) and Occidental (OXY, Fortune 500) account for most of the remaining oil, with Eni being the largest player.
But under Moammar Gadhafi the terms of those deals were strict. The dictator effectively imposed a 93% tax on any oil the companies produced in Libya.
Libyan peace could bring oil bonanza
“This 93% is a joke,” said Fadel Gheit, a senior energy analyst at Oppenheimer. “Not even Russia has that.”
A more palatable rate would be something like Norway’s 75%, said Gheit. A U.S.-style 50% would be a downright gift.”
http://money.cnn.com/2011/10/25/news/international/libya_oil/index.htm
It sounds to me like the corporations running the US government are talking more about their own interest in a Libyan government that will cut corporate oil taxes, than they are talking about any international obligations.
And the answer to my question…?
Answer to your question is: “No.”
So you do not really have a problem with Israel, you just have an issue with US relation to Israel, right? You do not really have a problem with Africans dying of Ebola, you have a problem with US help to African countries? It does not really concern you that an earthquake kills thousands of Haitians (from the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere), you just have a problem with the US sending troops there to help them, right? Am I correct?
42
As Joan Rivers used to say “Grow Up” …. or as Yogi Berra used to say “Deja Vu All Over Again”
By now we have seen these same scenarios play over and over and over again – The Middle East and the North African Magreb are just the latest playing fields – billions spent and unaccounted for in endless wars while the so-called Homeland for The American Dream becomes the One-Percent Plutocracy and Guns-and-Weapons-and-Airstrikes rule the World.
Somebody’s gotta Blow The Whistle and pull the players from the field . . . suspend them for “domestic violence” or engaging in foreign interventions.
BTW I’m all for “humanitarian or medical assistance” but not when it’s a sham for covert activities
“And the conclusion is that the US should not intervene anywhere regardless of its interests or its international obligations. Is that it?”
YES – exactly – the fact that you think this is an absurd idea says says everything about the US imperial mindset.
“the RSF Press Index Freedom for Afghanistan is 122 and the one for Venezuela is 137 for this year.” — LOL! As if this is germane or relevant in any way to this discussion. Big whoop. Due to our intervention in Afghanistan in the 80s, that country was given the wonderful gift of yrs of Taliban rule & an Al Qaeda base. I don’t see much of that happening in Venezuela under Chavez and Maduro.
YES – exactly – the fact that you think this is an absurd idea says says everything about the US imperial mindset.
What is sending troops to help fight Ebola has to do with imperialism? What about saving Yazidis from genocide? What it has to do with imperialism?
“the RSF Press Index Freedom for Afghanistan is 122 and the one for Venezuela is 137 for this year.” — LOL! As if this is germane or relevant in any way to this discussion
It has a lot to do with an article that relates to US INTERVENTIONS. The country is Afghanistan, a place loaded with US troops. The author suggests that all US interventions have resulted in chaos. Well, according to the same index he used to bash Israel, Saudi Arabia and the US press freedom, Afghanistan press freedom has done better this year. I dare him to state press freedom was better under the Taliban.
By the way, alpha, the per capita beer consumption index for Lithuania is 19 and the one for Uzbekistan is 46 for this year.
I am not interested in your drinking habit. I am, however, concerned about press freedom around the world, specially in Western countries and other countries in political turmoil. Your Great Leader, Glenn Greenwald, seems to have the same concern when he reported on the Press Freedom Index of the US and other countries with which the US has a strong relation such as Israel and Saudi Arabia. Therefore it is fair to mention the status of press freedom in Afghanistan, a country the US has intervened militarily. It is very relevant as a comment to an article related to US INTERVENTIONS. There is absolutely no doubt in mind that you would have found it relevant if the index for Afghanistan was at the bottom. That would help you and your Great Leader to bash the US as usual. Do that exercise (privately): say to yourself ” it is a good thing that press freedom in Afghanistan got better now than it was under the Taliban”. Just say it to yourself.
Ah, see, Glenn and others of us here are Americans concerned with press freedom in our own country. But you go ahead and gratuitously raise press freedom in Venezuela, Russia or Ethiopia etc. no matter the topic of the column. It’s the sort of thing we’ve come to expect from you.
“Glenn and others of us here are Americans concerned with press freedom in our own country” Mona
“That is the lowest ranking ever during the Obama presidency…..Some of the U.S.’s closest allies fared even worse, including Saudi Arabia (164), Bahrain (163), Egypt (158), the UAE (120), and Israel (101: “In the West Bank, the Israeli security forces deliberately fired rubber bullets and teargas at Palestinian journalists”; 15 journalists were killed during Israeli attack on Gaza; and “the authorities also stepped up control of programme content on their own TV stations during the offensive, banning a spot made by the Israeli NGO B’Tselem that cited the names of 150 children who had been killed in the Gaza Strip”).” Glenn Greenwald
Strange that your Great Leader is very detailed about dangers facing journalists in Israel/Palestine for an American who as you suggest, is exclusively concerned about press freedom in America.
“It’s the sort of thing we’ve come to expect from you.” Mona
Therefore, you should disregard my comments.
You are such a hilarious dolt you just KEEP walking into this stuff, because you came here ready to beat your chest based on nothing but your own ignorance. Look you doofus, Glenn is well-known as a premier defender of press freedom in the U.S., and a virulent critic of Obama on that score. The only other two countries he frequently writes about on that topic are the UK (because he and his partner became ensnared in their even worse attacks on the press) and France in the context of the Charlie Hebdo matter.
Otherwise, for Glenn, it’s AMERICA all the way down on the press freedom issue. He’s a co-founder of this and sits on it board: https://freedom.press/ By contrast, he doesn’t sit on a Venezuaslian Free Press Society Board, ya fuckwit.
@Mona
Ohh I got it. Your Great Leader may write about press freedom in Saudi Arabia, Israel, Egypt…but we can only comment about his writings on US press freedom. Well, that’s too bad. He is YOUR Great Leader, not mine. I will comment about any subjects he writes. It is actually very interesting for a great defender of press freedom to consistently omit the degradation of press freedom in Venezuela, a country he enjoys mentioning in his articles and to ignore the impact of US intervention on press freedom in Afghanistan.
“Fuckwit” “doofus” weak words! If you cannot find stronger offensive words just use offensive pics. What happens counselor? I thought you held the top position in offensive remarks and obscene words!
You do now. After implying Glenn didn’t really have bona fide claims to a primary concern with press freedom in the U.S., you were shown, yet again, to be a gas-filled dweeb.
You mean Glenn ignores the degradation of press freedom in Afghanistan after we financed and put the Taliban in power? Well, that’s not really his beat….
Alpha
You do realize that improvement from horrible to awful doesn’t make much of a selling point for interventions right?
A kid boasting about raising his grades from an F to a D- makes as much sense.
America losing ever more ground when we should be #1 (based on our stated values and rhetoric) is news.
Our “ally” losing ever more ground while slapping themselves on the back for being a beacon of light in a sea of darkness is also news.
“You do realize that improvement from horrible to awful doesn’t make much of a selling point for interventions right”
I disagree. I would rather have 10 out 100 kids going to school than have 0 out of 100 kids going to school. I would rather have 5 out of 100 women having access to medical care than to have 0 out of 100 women getting health care. I would rather have 1 private independent newspaper out of 10 public newspapers than have 0 private and independent newspaper out of 10. I would rather have thousands of refugees (Yazidis ) protected in a refugee camp than to have them massacred by ISIS.
Noble sentiments.
Let’s go to war killing thousands of Americans and tens of thousands of Afghans and spend a trillion dollars so ten percent can get health care… gee, why didn’t Cheney use that argument?
Iraq of course has even worse numbers… and our intervention created the IS menace you now cheer we are protecting the Yazidis from.
Libya had lower costs but has fallen much further from where they were… education, healthcare and press.
I’d stick to the non-regime change/Ebola type interventions argument if I were you.
Those actually can fit into the “humanitarian” category.
I disagree again. Like many doctors from DSF I do not mind catching Ebola and died while attempting to save poor Africans with the disease. Like many Kurdish fighters with honor, I do not mind dying protecting innocent civilians from being massacred by ISIS. Education is the door to freedom, so I do not mind dying fighting those who kill school children and prevent women from being educated. That is your choice to sit on your couch to watch genocides, poverty, and evaporation of human dignity on TV. Fortunately unlike you, many human beings do recognize that bystanders are criminals best allies.
And yet, here you are…
… mostly using the examples I recommended I might add…
… while ignoring the rest of my comment and the opportunity costs… which would matter to you if you truly cared.
That trillion dollars could have provided health care and education for millions of Americans currently going without…and funded some much needed journalism… and a much more robust response to the Ebola outbreak… and, and, and…
And if you add in the two trillion we flushed down the toilet creating IS in Iraq, the issues you claim to care about could have been covered for dozens of nations.
Yes, you are right. Western countries are not doing enough to help low income individuals in their countries and abroad. However, there is nothing you could do with $1 trillion with the Taliban in power in Kabul harboring the terrorists who were going around the world killing people. You really think they would have used that money to send kids to schools or provide health care to women? You can speculate about who created ISIS. The reality is that it is a genocidal organization. You might believe you do not have a responsibility as a human being to stop it, but I disagree because I would like another human being to save me if a genocidal organization was about to destroy everything I have and take my life away.
Um, sorry?
Where did I say anything about spending the trillion in Afghanistan?
If you think IS would exist without our regime change efforts in Iraq and Syria, I wouldn’t have to speculate about you.
And the US is 49th. So your point is what? We’re less bad than them? What a ringing endorsement for the exceptional people and indispensable nation. By the way, I thought for neocons like yourself that Afghanistan was supposed to be one of the models for spreading “freedom and democracy.” What happened to that?
“neocon”?
I am not even sure why I deserve that compliment!!!
Anyway, maybe you can help us by sharing a quote or a statement in which the leaders who intervened in Afghanistan promised that country would be a Swiss type democracy in 15 years. I am eager to see it. What I can share with you is what you already know: millions of kids finally going to school, millions of inhabitants finally getting access to healthcare, more independent TVs, radios, and newspapers. You can be like Greenwald and pick the failures in Afghanistan, but you will never be able to state that education, healthcare, freedom of expression were better under the Taliban than they are now.
The point that Greenwald successfully blurred from you is that Afghanistan, facing violent terrorists, Muslim extremists still has a press freedom index way better than Venezuela, a country not at war, and as Greenwald loves to remind us, run by very popular elected leaders.
You mean the Taliban that we financed and empowered when we were calling them the Mujahideen? Things are better now that the Taliban we grew there is temporarily gone? Huh.
Actually, the Taliban is a politico religious ideology that dated way before the soviet invasion of Afghanistan. The Mujahideen who were fighting the soviet occupiers ( I assume you and your Great Leader supported their fight against an occupier, do you?) set up the organized Taliban government thanks to Pakistan. I am not sure what your point is. Should Western governments keep financing groups or other governments even if those groups change their policies ?
“Things are better now that the Taliban we grew there is temporarily gone? Huh.”
What don’t you tell us, you as a highly educated lawyer, tell us whether it is better to have 8.2 million students enrolled in schools (40% women) instead of ZERO students in schools even if it is a temporary measure. Tell us counselor.
Tell us whether it is better to have 2000 functioning health facilities instead of 496 in a country of 29.8 million people (WHO) even if it is a temporary measure.
Tell whether it is better to have, let’s say 5% of the population accessing the media through the Internet in 2014 instead of 0% under the Taliban, even if it is temporary.
Why don’t you tell us? Also provide the most efficient solution to change a country destroyed by war and ethnic tensions for decades into a Swiss type advanced democracy in 15 years.
Uh-huh. Hey pardner, Osama bin Laden joined and organized the Afghanistan Mujahideen in 1979, a grouping which was also funded by the U.S. Bin laden helped usher in rule of the Taliban. We put Osama and the Taliban in power. We paid for them.
The entire Middle East, is rapidly being reconfigured, and will become several vassal states, controlled for the most part by the United States, with minimal aid from a few European nations.
The United States will try to have a go at control of some of the former Russian satellites, but Putin is well aware of this plan, and is engaged in his own attempt to do the same thing, and bring all of the former Soviet ruled satellites back under Russian control.
The European Union will eventually break apart, and revert back to independent soverign nations.
War is immensely profitable for the .01%ters; their military industrial machine rakes in billions upon billions, first through the sale of all manner of munitions, and then through control of the rebuilding, with the final prize being the long term political and economic control of the vanquished state, and it’s resources.
The New World Order is here to stay.
Why would they ever consider giving up such profitable ventures ??
CraigSummers Claims: “You keep clinging the idiotic committee reports by a panel of “experts”.”
Craig means this 2004 Report of the Defense Science Task Force (pdf): http://fas.org/irp/agency/dod/dsb/commun.pdf This reports shows that Muslim extremists hate the U.S. for its policies, including its one-sided approach to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and not for our freedoms.
Craig, why is this report “idiotic,” and why do you employ scare quotes to describe the authors as “experts?”
” Muslims do not “hate our freedom,” but rather, they hate our policies”
The writers were referring to US foreign policies. I wonder what is wrong about France foreign policies or Denmark foreign policies or Nigeria foreign policies that makes Muslim extremists hate French or Danish cartoonists, and enslave Nigerian schoolchildren. That would also help to know what was wrong with Argentina foreign policies that pushed Muslim extremists to kill so many Argentinian citizens.
Clearly a small number of radicalized, young males turn to extreme Islam and murder in response to “blasphemy” in the Danish and French press. In the U.S., we have Christian extremists who terrorize abortion doctors and clinics. These are both domestic problems.
But in terms of large-scale terror ops from the likes of al Qaeda, the grievances are Western foreign policies, not our “freedoms.”
“But in terms of large-scale terror ops from the likes of al Qaeda, the grievances are Western foreign policies, not our “freedoms.”
Really. That is interesting because according to press reports around the world, including from The Intercept Al Qaeda claimed responsibility for the attacks in Paris. So, is it just a body count argument? If Al Qaeda attempts to blow up a plane with hundreds of passengers, it is about Western foreign policies, but if the group kills a few dozen people, it is just a “domestic problems? Is that how it works? Please help us understand.
Again, I do understand that the report was not about France, Denmark, Nigeria, or any other countries policies or “freedom”, but since you present yourself as very well informed about international terrorist organizations, maybe you can help us understand why those SAME organizations attack French cartoonists or Nigerian school children. Is it because of France drone program? Nigeria’s secret prison in the Caribbean? Please help.
To grasp the motives of the Charlie Hebdo attackers I suggest this lengthy and excellent profile in Der Spiegel: “Terror from the Fringes: Searching for Answers in the “Charlie Hebdo” Attacks”
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/charlie-hebdo-attackers-radicalized-in-search-for-identity-a-1013475.html
An estimated 5000 Muslims from Europe have made the trip to Syria and Iraq to fight with the jihadists (NYT) – to kill other Muslims – when they could have stayed in Europe and killed Europeans because of their/our racist and dehumanizing policies of invasions and murdering Muslims. These are just the ones that made the trip. Presumably, there are many more Islamists that did not.
“…..Clearly a small number of radicalized, young males turn to extreme Islam and murder in response to “blasphemy” in the Danish and French press. In the U.S., we have Christian extremists who terrorize abortion doctors and clinics. These are both domestic problems…..”
Laughable Mona.
I’m not the first to make the observation that these are alienated young males, the Timothy McVieghs of the world. The Kouachis were foster kids from a poor banlieue who were into soccer and not religious, and had records of petty crime. All of a sudden they fell in with this older couple feeding them religious pottage that gave their aimless lives meaning.
Almost all these instances, Christian or Muslim, are young males, and that’s for a reason.
No Glen-you’ve got it ass backwards. Attacks on U.S interests and people (Benghazi) resulted in a wholly inadequate response from the U.S. and this is why things drag on and on. If our response had been strong and resolute, fully funded and fully manned with “boots on the ground” and with military leaders calling the shots, not half-wits in the White House, then Libya today would be a much different place.
And most importantly, remember that Tinkerbell’s going to die unless we do something. Clap your hands! Clap your hands and say: “I do believe in fairies!”
If only the U.S. coalition had overthrown Gaddafi and *more resolutely* installed those psychos who just beheaded 21 people on those clear white sand beaches in Libya.
I always love when conservatives talk about being “strong and resolute” after the 8 years we endured of George W Bush and Dick Cheney.
Using the FOX-generated lingo of “strong and resolute”, was it “strong and resolute” when George W Bush did nothing whatsoever before, during, or after 9.11 to get Osama bin Laden?? Wasn’t that the very definition of weakness, impotence, and cowardly “leadership”?
How is Benghazi worse than 9.11? Four Americans dying in a terrorist attack is a “major scandal” but 3000 Americans dying in a terrorist attack is a time to cheer on the president as a HERO?
Why was 8 years of videos from OBL taunting the USA for being too weak to get him, thereby making the USA the epitome of pathetic ineptitude, not at all bothersome to conservatives?
And remember, the US wasn’t attacked just ONCE on American soil during the unprecedentedly weak Bush/Cheney years, we also had the Anthrax terrorist attacks – and TWICE the hands-off, do-nothing, lack of strength & resolve impotence of the GOP was repeated.
If President Obama was in office on 9.11, ignored 9 months of dire warnings, sat for 7 minutes after being told America was under attack, stood in the rubble of 3000 dead Americans with a bullhorn for a grotesque photo op, boasted 5 months later he “didn’t think about” Osama bin Laden, and then maintained a hands-off policy on OBL for the remaminder of his failed presidency, would your response have been the same as it was to Bush and the GOP? Or would it have been the single greatest presidential scandal in history?
If you truly cared about a “strong and resolute” leader, you would abhor FOX news and the emasculated weakenss the GOP showed from 2001 to 2009.
There’s nothing as ridiculous as conservatives talking about being “strong and resolute”
If President Obama had been in office on 9/11, the impeachment proceedings would have commenced on 9/12.
I have always been against intervention in Libya, and just about everywhere else. Now, even with everything this and others point out, I am not so sure. We didn’t intervene in Syria and it’s far worse than Libya. It’s flawed logic to just point out that the consequences of intervention in Libya are bad. You have to compare them to what would have happened if we hadn’t, which is tricky since it is a rewriting of history. Perhaps our intervention prevented something worse from happening — namely a Syria-like civil war, in which case, perhaps it was a good thing.
Not a “rewriting of history.” Literally impossible to know.
It is also possible that intervening in Syria would have made the situation worse, or not improved it.
But none of your speculation changes that the cheerleaders for Libyan intervention were utterly wrong in about the results they said they’d achieve.
It is indeed impossible to know, but it is none the less the analysis that has to be done. Politicians lie and cajole, exaggerate, play on emotions, we all know that, and people like Greenwald and Jon Stewart love to point it out. I am very grateful for their existence. However, the question of whether or not it was the right decision to intervene in Libya is far deeper than whether or not the cheerleading politicians were wrong, and requires not just an observation of facts and how they are not as promised. I am not qualified to do this analysis, but I hope that there are people who do it and do it well. If you know of any such accounts, please let me know.
“It is indeed impossible to know, but it is none the less the analysis that has to be done. – John Sullivan
The analysis has been done over a decade ago. The specific geography may have changed (a little) but the underlying problem remains the same:
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/02/16/hailed-model-successful-intervention-libya-proves-exact-opposite/#comment-111300
h/t -Mona-
John
We did intervene in Syria.
Covert intervention is still intervention.
The “rebels” weren’t supplying themselves and holding bake sales to pay for it.
As for Libya, admitting that the “what ifs” from non-intervention could also include a stable, peaceful and prosperous Libyan populace would be the “fair and balanced” approach.
We haven’t intervened in Syria?What are you on,Mars?The idiot POTUS just announced that ISUS will spot for our airstrikes.There have been a multitude reports of either US supplying money and equipment,and our masturbator,Israel uses its airforce as muscle for these wackos.
Come home America,please?The ghosts of our many many dead victims wish it.
A lot of idoits(idiots ignorant of their condition) lurking here today I notice,must of set an alarm off at hasbara central.
US imperialism and the catastrophe in Libya
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2015/02/17/pers-f17.html
The Libyan catastrophe
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/07/29/pers-j29.html
The Benghazi diversion
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/05/14/beng-m14.html
See also:
The imperial agenda of the US’s ‘Africa Command’ marches on
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/jun/14/africom-imperial-agenda-marches-on
US AFRICOM commander calls for “huge” military campaign in West Africa
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2015/02/02/afri-f02.html
Mr Greenwald erroneously assumes that our war tactics have proven to be unsuccessful. Actually, considering the amount of chaos that we have created our efforts have been highly successful. No one in the Middle East, Africa and Europe can now be certain as to who is friend and who is enemy. What better confusion can be there when enemy’s friend is friend, and friend’s friend is enemy. This was our strategy and we have been highly successful. Now we are not confused. We have a kill list and regardless who we publicly say is what we are going to get them. Cameron is a good chap, but can’t say the same about Hollande, Poroshenko and Merkel and their common friend Mr Putin. Sigh …
I think the multinational corporate (and specifically banking) interests who control the United States government know very well who is friend and who is ‘enemy.’
‘Our’ strategy? This is not really America doing this. This is the corruption *controlling* America doing this. Please don’t conflate the two, for as miserably propagandized as the people of the US are, they know not what they do – unlike the controlling elite, who are very conscious of their ‘successful’ evil and quite proud of its reach.
What banks exactly?
A 747 on autopilot.
I have never heard of that bank. Where is it? NY, Frankfurt…
Matt Taibbi on Big Banks’ Lack of Accountability
That’s set? Bankers launder money?
According to some commentators the banks told the US government to bomb Libya, Iraq, Syria…? Your link does not provide any evidence of that. If you guys are so sure about this, why is it so hard to present compelling evidence?
Free Markets: Yellow Brick Road to War
“Yves here. I’m a believer in synchronicity, and this post will allow readers to continue the discussion we’ve been having over the last few days about the forces for war versus peace in industrial and post industrial economies.”
…
“Countries integrated into a system of trade may go to war with each other because trade itself contains the source of conflict, aggressive competition among institutions of private power stronger than governments. This may not be rational for “the people” of any of the countries in a conflict. Countries do not have homogenous populations; they are divided into classes and groups. For some groups and classes, armed conflict may bring gains, making the choice for war quite rational even on a cost-benefit calculation.
International trade aggravates the three great crises—of finance, development and the environment — and to those three it adds another, of democracy. Far from a benign process fostering harmony and welfare among nations, commodity and service trade, most of it carried out by powerful private institutions, creates tensions, corruption and conflict. As a general rule, wars kill people and enrich corporations. That, Mr Krugman, explains why not all but most of them continue to occur.”
“It is precisely because the consequences of war — intended or otherwise — can be so profound and complicated that our Founding Fathers vested in Congress, not the President, the power to initiate war, except to repel an imminent attack on the United States or its citizens.” (Joe Biden 2007)
Of course, he changed his mind when Hillary Clinton and Obama decided to fuck up Libya.
It’s all theater, you know.
Mind your tongue lady ;-)
You love it.
“Theater.” There, I said it again. Shocking, I know. And I seem so nice.
“When you’re born into this world, you’re given a ticket to the freak show. If you’re born in America you get a front row seat.”
best seat in the house. show some gratitude!
From other fronts on the Warren Terra, this story on hard-drive spyware. Not entirely unexpected, but it’s good to know that NSA is one agency that listens to the public.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/16/nsa-computer-spying_n_6694736.html
Because you can’t be too paranoid.
The comment section there is sadly illuminating regarding how many Democrats awkwardly defend all the spying, when if it was the Republicans they rather obviously wouldn’t. (Truth is, it makes no difference who’s in charge, for both parties are corrupt, and the two-party fix is merely theater for a propagandized public to either pathetically ‘blame the other wing’ or ‘just trust the government’ – neither of which changes the status quo. The mesmerism seems particularly vivid now that Republicans largely control Congress, yet still Obama’s unprecedented surveillance and war power still gets defended because he’s the Big Cheese.)
I wrote this commentary on Glenn’s piece.
http://www.magickingdomdispatch.com/2015/02/may-god-bless-america.html
Let the feeding begin!
Spot on! We’ve walked into these quagmires knowing exactly what they were going to look like when we left and we did it anyway. If this were a trial, I think it would be hard to say whether such actions would be better defined as 1st or 2nd degree murder, but they definitely fit the form.
ot – ‘Is there a lawyer in da house..??’
re: Iranian (“Good Faith”) Sanctions
[snip]
‘AMHERST — The University of Massachusetts has banned Iranian nationals from admission to specific graduate programs, a move university officials say brings their policies into accord with U.S. sanctions against Iran.[..]
Effective Feb. 1, the university no longer admits students from Iran to certain programs in the College of Engineering and the College of Natural Sciences. In addition, the policy demands that current Iranian graduate students “acknowledge the restrictions imposed by the 2012 sanctions and certify their compliance in writing.”
The sanctions come from a law passed by Congress in August 2012 titled the “Iran Threat Reduction and Syria Human Rights Act.” The law says citizens from Iran must be denied a visa to study in the U.S. if they plan to participate in coursework to prepare for a career in the energy or nuclear fields back in Iran..’
http://www.recorder.com/home/15710583-95/iran-sanctions-bite-at-umass
A Strategy for Israel in the Nineteen Eighties by Oded Yinon (1982)
http://tinyurl.com/dzyma6 (PDF)
That’s from an Israeli policy paper written in 1982. Oded Yinon wasn’t a psychic. And it’s not a “Zionist Conspiracy”, to the extent that the strategies and affinities have been ‘publicly’ telegraphed for decades. File it under agnotology? What does it matter. The attack on Iraq opened the gates to hell. We are all neocons now.
here’s Maz Hussein for aljazeera two years ago, citing the affinity of Yinon’s policy with Richard Perle’s, circa 1996
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2013/05/2013567200437919.html
one more- Mahdi Darius Nazemroaya drawing on the corollaries of Sykes-Picot
http://www.globalresearch.ca/preparing-the-chessboard-for-the-clash-of-civilizations-divide-conquer-and-rule-the-new-middle-east
He ends by noting how multiculturalism/post colonialism complicated Western intervention post Geneva, necessitating the euphemistic language of “humanitarian intervention”
Re:BenjaminAP – 16 Feb 2015 at 11:03 pm
Your offerings are a welcomed appearance in this ofttimes revisionist and rhetoric laden discussion; I readily concur, for the most part, with your closing thoughts saying:
In keeping with your reference to “..the corollaries of Sykes-Picot”, and with which its historical precedent, the now infamous Balfour Agreement should be considered, it seems to me that the opening (topical) sentence of your last paragraph…
Today, the imperialist designs of the United States, Britain, France, and Germany have not changed.
…might more accurately read;
Today, the imperialist designs of the United States, Britain, France, and Germany; now augmented by those of Israel, have not changed.
What say you good sir?
As Usual,
EA
Oded Yinon had some interesting insight into the way that Saddam ran Iraq. It was Saddam who treated the Shia as second class citizens (and much worse) and even invaded Iran for fear of the Iranian revolution spreading to Iraq with Iranian collusion. The Kurds were treated the same way (and were later gassed by Saddam). The reason that Yinon seemed so psychic is because he could see the underlying sectarian tensions which were similar to Lebanon. Tension in Lebanon is extremely high right now because of Hezbollah’s decision to intervene in Syria on behalf of Assad – who is vehemently opposed by Sunni extremists.
Weakened enemies should always be your target in a neighborhood where you are clearly not wanted, but chalk his insight in Iraq to envisioning the weakness of Arab societies tacked together by strong arm rule along sectarian lines – just like Lebanon and Bahrain.
oy vey
oy vey?
Oy vey, or: “This, Craig, is your unhinged, war-mongering mind on Zionism. Just say no.”
Craig isn’t Jewish, apparently. But he plays an estranged Zionist on the internet.
I had thought Craig once said he was Jewish? But doesn’t matter. He’s as tribal-acting in his Zionism as any German who ever pledged “ein volk, ein reich, ein führer” was to Germany.
Craig Summers: On January 26,Rep. John Yarmuth (D-KY), in the context of his outrage over Netanyahu’s invitation to speak to congress, said in part:
Do you find anything antisemitic in Congressman Yarmuth’s observations, including the bolded part?
Without knowing much about the Jewish Congressman, I would chalk it up to ignorance although he has a right to his own opinion. If David Duke made the same remark, I would call it antisemitic because of his past hatred directed at Jews. As the Congressman mentions, Jewish people rightfully have pride in a Jewish state, Mona. Jewish people and donors (and AIPAC) have every right to lobby the US government as do other interests like the Agricultural lobby etc. Indeed, Irish-Americans may have pride in Ireland. Armenian-Americans have pride in Armenia. Chinese Americans may have pride in China. There is nothing wrong with any of that. The guy that shot the Jewish guard in Holland? Antisemitice, Mona.
I’m done for the moment playing your game Mona although it’s an interesting topic which can be applied to more than just Jewish people.
What is “ignorant” or wrong about Congressman Yarmuth’s opinion? Please be specific.
Yes, and the congressman has every right to say that he does not agree with all their requests. That does not make him anti-semitic, not even in the waffling sense with the reference to DD. Even the financial industry sometimes does not get everything it wants, and it is still not illegal to criticize it.
“…..Even the financial industry sometimes does not get everything it wants, and it is still not illegal to criticize it…..”
Never said it was Mike. Anything about the comment you disagree with? Yes, if David Duke says it, it’s antisemitic because Jewish power, Israel firsters and other conspiracies of Jewish control are behind his hatred for Jews. This is the same David Duke that made this statement:
“…..”White people don’t need a law against rape, but if you fill this room up with your normal black bucks, you would, because niggers are basically primitive animals……”
And this is the same David Duke that attended the Holocaust Denial Conference in Tehran chaired by Ahmadinejad – the President of Iran. Hate and criticism are completely two different concepts, Mike.
David Duke has noting to do with the discussion here. Your attempt to associate others with him is ridiculous.
Calling out peoples shortcomings is not exclusively hatred,but tough love,disappointment,or helpful hints on human relations that some Jews(and of course others)seem devoid of.
Now them Zionists,they hate with a passion from eons of pricks that bleed!(of course not all!)
No Sir, I do not think that “One can debate whether all of this is done by design or by “accident””. The honest answer is one of unequivocal design — how else could our government make the same irrational mistakes ad infinitum. Furthermore, I think any rational, moderately virtuous person understands the why of our insane, chaotic war policies.
CraigSummers, do you believe this Greenwald statement — which you quoted below — to be true?
There are certainly Jewish people that believe that – and understandably. Do they run US foreign policy which is the underlying premise of the Greenwald article? The answer is simple. The US has never attacked Iran, and the US continues to negotiate the Iranian nuclear program in a peaceful manner – and in good faith.
I’m not asking whether (unspecified) Jewish people believe that, or for your characterization of Glenn’s piece overall. Is this paragraph TRUE:
The answer is NO until you are more specific about “groups” Mona – and the underlying message of the article is that Jewish people with the interests of Israel in mind are agitating for war with Iran – and run US foreign policy. I would love to hear some quotes from these donor groups. Can you supply them?
This is not an instance in is logically necessary. Is this [slightly altered statement] true?
This sentence should read: “This is not an instance in which specificity is logically necessary”
“The US has never attacked Iran” I’m guessing you have forgotten about the disgusting CIA overthrow of the Iranian government in the early ’50s over their attempts to nationalize their oil? If Iran had done this to Israel, you would have called it a war crime… and rightly so.
Yeah, we never attacked Iran. Except for the times that we did. Like when the US shot down an Iranian airliner. If Iran had shot down an American airliner you would consider it Iran attacking the US.
We have committed acts of cyber warfare against Iran… and perhaps assassinations of nuclear scientists as well.
And the Iraq Iran war where untold in the west,many many died,and we instigated our boy Saddam to do it.
Mona — to which “large and extremely influential Jewish donor groups” was Glenn referring? I am assuming AIPAC was one, but what about the other(s)?
[snip]
A Our Hearts Were In The Right Place Production
http://www.chris-floyd.com/component/content/article/1-latest-news/2200-war-without-end-amen-the-reality-of-americas-aggression-against-iraq-.html
I think our heart was in the right place on these but interventions have not gone particularly smoothly since WWII. Especially in countries that are culturally rather different than the U.S. When push comes to shove, I don’t think we have a good grasp of the nuances and mindsets shaping those environments. Our simplified guesses about politics and religion can only be the grossest approximations or guesses when it comes to trying to understand a really diverse subjective framework. Add to that the dice roll of never really knowing how political situations will play out, and intervening becomes a bit of a shot in the dark, to my mind.
The real question — a premise that even the Bickersons earlier in the thread might not be questioning — is why should the US have any responsibility for what goes on in the rest of the world? (With the usual exceptions for formal alliances, &c.). Why should we play the Great Game? Certainly Libya was going to be a butcher’s yard whether Qaddafi was in power or overthrown — the subsequent chaos would have come soon enough, when the old monster died of whatever — but why should the American public care who’s in charge in Tobruk? Or in the Donbass, for that matter? It’ll all go on anyway.
To some extent I think as long as other countries do the same, total isolationism might be net harmful. One likes to think those things are slowly deescalating from say, Cold War days, though.
Our “heart(s) were in the right place”? Bullshit. And, that “dice roll” business? Plenty of knowledgeable people knew exactly how the dice would roll and what would come up . . . .
This wasn’t about oil or doing it for “daddy”. So yes, the French, British and American hearts were in the right place. Certainly, Qadaffi’s wasn’t right?
You know this how?
Most of the oil was already destined for Europe, Mona.
Even if true, that doesn’t demonstrate oil was not a reason.
Anything besides take my word for it? The French and British already imported oil from Qaddafi and they were principally behind the push to remove him from power??
Craig, you asserted the intervention in Libya was not about oil. On what do you base this assertion? Do you have some *dispositive facts or a formal analysis showing oil played virtually no role in these events?
Unless you back that up, this is just a Pollyanna vs Scrooge Intuition Standoff.
Unquestionably. The Middle East contains the vast majority of the world’s proven oil reserves – where else would our heart be? Shattering any uncooperative governments that control those reserves, one by one, is the number one strategic priority – for their own good, of course.
Libya already exported most of their oil to Europe.
Yes, and Gaddafi was continually talking about pricing oil in Gold Dinars and persuading other African leaders into taking control of their natural resources. A real trouble maker.
He was a trouble maker. Good to know that the protesters were acting in our interests – probably CIA agitation or plants.
They, of course, were acting purely in their own self interest. But they proved useful and it was quite impressive how quickly western governments mobilized to support them. Unfortunately, they are now proving to be troublesome in their own right.
Running an empire is a bit like house cleaning – the work is never done – as there is always some new pest to eradicate.
A person can make a good living in pest control. Good point Benito.
“Shattering”? The narrative here is that we single handedly said “Out, you! In, you!”. In reality it was a bit more nuanced.
Nuance is in the eye of the beholder, so I won’t quibble. It is true that George Bush strove to find common ground.
How many decades have we been excusing our foreign policy with the story that we are new at this game and “our heart was in the right place” but we don’t “have a good grasp of the nuances and mindsets shaping those environments”? Time for us to grow up. If we can’t appoint knowledgeable foreign policy experts and heed their advice, our foreign adventurism is our fault. If the catastrophes we inflict on the world are what we intend, it’s our fault.
Yes, the world is a tough neighborhood, with difficult conflicts and uncooperative residents. But we don’t have to make it worse. And we aren’t making it better. Nobody believes our silly stories that we care about the women of Afghanistan having to wear burkas or about the oppressed people of Iraq or Libya. We ignore equal (and sometimes identical) injustices when our “friends” commit them. So let’s cut the crap. We are not good-hearted blunderers. We are bad-hearted blunderers or clever schemers. We aren’t trying to help anyone but ourselves. And if we had spent as much money on sensible approaches toward helping ourselves as we have spent on “interventions” that we can’t call wars even though they are, we would be better off. JMO
This assumes a lot. It assumes that different interventions would have assuredly worked out differently, when in reality they may have caused a whole different set of problems and one could then have made the same commentary if we had subscribed to whatever policy you had in mind, tortoise. I am not particularly moved by “You’re bad at heart, just admit it!” arguments. I think that’s related to “there are no accidents” thinking, which assumes a weird infallibility on the part of whoever erred, like they looked into a crystal ball and then cackled. But to the degree that people are committed to ideals they say they are committed to, they will eventually use new data as a corrective, an indication to change course somewhat, vs refusing to admit error.
Sometimes you have to be careful what you wish for. In many ways, the situation in Iraq and Libya is much worse off than before we tried to help out and remove Saddam Hussein and Muammar Qaddafi.
As long as we have an all voluntary military which can be used as cannon fodder, the chaos will continue. Anyone considered fit enough to work should be available for conscription. That includes Congress and anyone else in government or business, Presidents, Judges, billionaires. Crazy, you say? If those responsible for condemning the rest of the world to endless wars had to fight and die in those wars, there is little doubt there would be far fewer wars.
There is also a slight of tongue which seems to escape scrutiny, it is the intentional conflation of ‘National Security Interests” with the similar “National Interests”. The latter is merely a cover for business interests, i.e. oil or other commodities. The former should be obvious but not so much the last few decades. These two terms are not interchangeable and need to be called out when some politician or news pundit uses them as such.
“One can debate whether all of this is done by design or by “accident””
Isn’t it time to be advancing that debate to the forefront? How long can the people remain gleefully ignorant of the cause and effect of all our interventions and the resultant chaos followed by calls for further intervention? Really. How long? Please wake up, people.
“As long as we have an all voluntary military which can be used as cannon fodder, the chaos will continue. Anyone considered fit enough to work should be available for conscription…. If those responsible for condemning the rest of the world to endless wars had to fight and die in those wars, there is little doubt there would be far fewer wars. – jgreen7801
Well said – your entire post. I’ve been advocating the same since shortly after the all volunteer (we need a job) military was introduced. It’s simply another method, such as the lack of media coverage for the wars themselves or seeing the casualties as they come home (what we have sown) that allows those we elect to become even further removed from the consequences of their action, or to be held accountable in any way, shape or form afterwards (see torture and spying.)
We either all have skin in the game, or the game is rigged. Yeah, it’s the latter.
“It’s not unpatriotic to denounce an injustice committed on our behalf, perhaps it’s the most patriotic thing we can do.” – E.A. Bucchianeri, Brushstrokes of a Gadfly
If everyone is up for the draft, I’d still imagine a lot of wealthier/affluent people would ultimately end up in military positions where they may be safer than the average grunt. Rich people are typically highly educated and highly skilled. If military roles are chosen on merit, I don’t think the rich/political people will be ending up dodging RPGs in a Humvee, or patrolling neighborhoods on foot. If they are in combat roles at all, I’d imagine many will end up in more expensive military hardware like jets or tanks.
The point is, the risk of war would still be distributed in a way that would probably favor the rich/political people we’re talking about. Unless we just determine that a certain number of politician’s kids must be put into low-ranking infantry roles, even if they are overqualified for these roles.
Precisely. More like a frozen turdling on the summit of Mt. Kilimanjaro.
Next..
Mr. Greenwald
“……Into the void of Libya’s predictable disintegration has stepped ISIS, among other groups. ISIS yesterday released a new video showing the beheading of 21 Egyptian Coptic Christians, which they carried out in Libya. This, in turn, led to all sorts of dire warnings about how close ISIS now is to Europe…..”
This article is another attempt on your part to deflect a brutal act of terror committed by Islamic terrorists who beheaded 21 Coptic Christians in Libya. As you typically do, you attempt to blame the west for the rise of Islamic terrorists like ISIS. At the same time, you deftly avoided mentioning another Islamic terrorist attack in Holland which targeted free speech (again) and murdered a Jew guarding a synagogue. We can surely expect an article soon by someone at the Intercept who will quote a terrorist on the reasons that all Jews are fair game for murder:
According to Scahill and Devereaux (Intercept) who quoted Awlaki:
“……“I [Awlaki] support what Umar Farouk has done after I have been seeing my brothers being killed in Palestine for more than sixty years…..”
Or maybe a quote by Bin Laden this time will be even more effective:
“…….Thus the American people have chosen, consented to, and affirmed their support for the Israeli oppression of the Palestinians, the occupation and usurpation of their land, and its continuous killing, torture, punishment and expulsion of the Palestinians…… The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine….. Also the American army is part of the American people. It is this very same people who are shamelessly helping the Jews fight against us…..This is why the American people cannot be not innocent of all the crimes committed by the Americans and Jews against us……”
I guess someone forgot to tell the ISIS that Coptic Christians don’t “occupy” Islamic holy land in Israel. We all still understand, Mr. Greenwald, that you believe that the US and Israel are the most dangerous countries in the world. Islamic terrorism – like ISIS and their beheading of the Coptic Christians and murder of Shiites – is simply “blowback” against the twenty-first century “crusade” by western imperialists i.e., racist anti-Muslim policies, killing of Muslims, use of drones and invasions etc.
“……Since 2011, Libya has rapidly unraveled in much the way Iraq did following that invasion: swamped by militia rule, factional warfare, economic devastation, and complete lawlessness. And to their eternal shame, most self-proclaimed “humanitarians” who advocated the Libya intervention completely ignored the country once the fun parts – the war victory dances and mocking of war opponents – were over. The feel-good “humanitarianism” of war advocates, as usual, extended only to the cheering from a safe distance as bombs dropped…….”
Finally, you are clueless what Libya might have looked like without any intervention. It could look exactly the way that Syria looks today. In that conflict, Assad brutally put down a democracy movement leading to the current civil war and the murder of 200,000 Muslims – and interventions by Iran, Hezbollah and Russia (which you have yet to say anything about except a bombing raid by Israel). You can hardly argue that Rwanda would have been worse off with intervention even though Rwanda in the aftermath might not have been stable politically. Secondly, because the political environment is unstable today, getting rid of the dictator could still pave the way for future stability in a more democratic state. The same could happen in Iraq or even Syria. It cannot happen while those dictators remained in power – especially Assad and Saddam Hussein who was responsible for close to 2,000,000 deaths.
By the way, intervention in Libya was primarily driven by France and Britain who pushed for humanitarian intervention in the wake of the Arab Spring and a potential massacre by another Middle East dictator. The ongoing conflict in Syria should be a reminder of the geopolitical complexities that are outside of the control of western intervention. There are obviously no guarantees in intervention – or in non intervention.
Craig recycles one of my very favorite neocon fuckwitteries:
You see kidz, given a large enough historical window, at some pointpeace and calm will reign in Iraq and Libya. It might be ten years from now, 50, or even a century. But whenever it happens, it came about because USA! USA! USA! cratered the place with freedom bombs and killed the Hitler du jour.
That’s a fair point, Mona, but it is just as fuckwitted to look at a situation a couple of years after intervention and gloat with joy at the chaos (mostly to blame western intervention for the rise of the murderous ISIS). Revolutions take a long time (especially in an authoritarian area like the Middle East). If Greenwald was right, the people responsible for the Arab Spring would be sorely disappointed because the results have been abysmal so far. Yet, the Arab Spring in my opinion is still in its infancy. Syria is a good example of the destruction of the Arab Spring – and we have not seen one fucking story by Greenwald on the brutal crackdown on people who simply sought a say in their government. Egypt is an exception – not because Greenwald cared even one little iota for the Egyptian people, but because Greenwald used Egypt to whip western policies.
Thanks
Yes, fair and compelling.
“……As for your ongoing whataboutery, as I usually do, I’m ignoring it……”
I agree with you Mona. It’s fuckwitted, but compelling.
Obviously my formatting got partially messed up. Should have read:
Craig:
Me: No. Gloating when one is proven correct may be, oh, unseemly, uncharitable and even revolting — but it is not “fuckwitted.”
As for your ongoing whataboutery, as I usually do, I’m ignoring it.
I think I share a lot of your views, Craig. There is a pro-democracy sentiment in the Middle East region that should get support. A major issue is that the US public and much of the population in the region does not want the US to be involved.
The sentiment that NATO should not have intervened in Libya is popular in Arab countries, according to Gallup
http://www.gallup.com/poll/154997/snapshot-nato-intervention-libya-unpopular-arab-world.aspx
US public support for the Libya intervention had a 10 point lead over disapproval when the bombs were dropping, but just a few months later, the public disapproved of that action too. I’d assume current support for the intervention is even lower than it was when this poll was taken
http://www.gallup.com/poll/148196/americans-shift-negative-view-libya-military-action.aspx
US public support for Syria intervention has been low too. And Middle East public opinion is lower still.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/05/02/middle-eastern-and-western-publics-wary-on-syrian-intervention/
So one hand we are arguing that the US should get involved for the sake of Middle Eastern democracy, but on the other, we can see from public opinion polling that most of the public in the region does NOT want US involvement. And the US public is opposed too.
Have you ever agreed with anything Mr. Greenwald has written? Do you have a playbook with all the answers to everything critical of US policy?
A better question might be: has Greenwald ever a greed a with a US policy? Greenwald’s world view is fairly simple. Muslim violence is a response to US imperialism and the existence of Israel – no matter what the circumstance. You could probably apply this to other conflicts like Ukraine as well, but the Muslim Middle East and Islamic terrorism is his specialty – at least finding excuses to justify attacks against the west. Every once in awhile, he will acknowledge the brutality of Islamist like ISIS, but then retreat into his anti-western viewpoint with something like we are as bad or worse. I simply disagree with his extreme and simplified world view. This is not too say that I disagree with everything he says though (damn close, however).
Thanks.
A view he came to in the last decade after much study, including a 2004 report from the Defense Science Board to the Pentagon (which Pedinska has cut and pasted and I borrow here) my emphasis:
——————————————————————
And it has taken form through many variant movements, both moderate and militant, with many millions of adherents ?of which radical fighters are only a small part. Moreover, these movements for restoration also represent, in their variant visions, the reality of multiple identities within Islam.
If there is one overarching goal they share, it is the overthrow of what Islamists call the “apostate” regimes: the tyrannies of Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Jordan, and the Gulf states. They are the main target of the broader Islamist movement, as well as the actual fighter groups.The United States finds itself in the strategically awkward — and potentially dangerous — situation of being the longstanding prop and alliance partner of these authoritarian regimes. Without the U.S. these regimes could not survive. Thus the U.S. has strongly taken sides in a desperate struggle that is both broadly cast for all Muslims and country-specific. 23
This is the larger strategic context, and it is acutely uncomfortable: U.S. policies and actions are increasingly seen by the overwhelming majority of Muslims as a threat to the survival of Islam itself. […]
Not only is every American initiative and commitment in the Muslim World enmeshed in the larger dynamic of intra-Islamic hostilities — but Americans have inserted themselves into this intra-Islamic struggle in ways that have made us an enemy to most Muslims.
— Pp. 35-36
Today we reflexively compare Muslim “masses” to those oppressed under Soviet rule. This is a strategic mistake. There is no yearning -to-be-liberated-by-the-U.S. groundswell among Muslim societies — except to be liberated perhaps from what they see as apostate tyrannies that the U.S. so determinedly promotes and defends. […]
Today, however, the perception of intimate U.S. support of tyrannies in the Muslim World is perhaps the critical vulnerability in American strategy. It strongly undercuts our message, while strongly promoting that of the enemy.
Interesting that they chose to frame that as the perception, as opposed to the reality, of US support of Arab dictatorships.
American direct intervention in the Muslim World has paradoxically elevated the stature of and support for radical Islamists, while diminishing support for the United States to single-digits in some Arab societies.
• Muslims do not “hate our freedom,” but rather, they hate our policies. The overwhelming majority voice their objections to what they see as one-sided support in favor of Israel and against Palestinian rights, and the longstanding, even increasing support for what Muslims collectively see as tyrannies, most notably Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Pakistan, and the Gulf states.
• Thus when American public diplomacy talks about bringing democracy to Islamic societies, this is seen as no more than self-serving hypocrisy.
• Furthermore, in the eyes of Muslims, American occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq has not led to democracy there, but only more chaos and suffering. U.S. actions appear in contrast to be motivated by ulterior motives, and deliberately controlled in order to best serve American national interests at the expense of truly Muslim self-determination. […]
• Finally, Muslims see Americans as strangely narcissistic — namely, that the war is all about us. As the Muslims see it, everything about the war is — for Americans — really no more than an extension of American domestic politics and its great game. This perception is of course necessarily heightened by election-year atmospherics, but nonetheless sustains their impression that when Americans talk to Muslims they are really just talking to themselves.
Thus the critical problem in American public diplomacy directed toward the Muslim World … is a fundamental problem of credibility. Simply, there is none— the United States today is without a working channel of communication to the world of Muslims and of Islam.
Mona
I have seen this same study dozens of times posted by apologists for Islamic terrorism. DocHollywood (God Bless him) has referenced it at least three times beginning at the Guardian a year or more ago. It’s the propaganda bible for leftist. This is mostly the answer I supplied him at that time with a few additions and more subtractions.
“…..”Muslims do not hate our freedom, but rather, they hate our policies.”….”
This question has been answered a bunch of times. I have never said Muslims hate our freedom. Muslim societies are complex with a strong influence of Islam. Just look at the Middle East today, in general, and Egypt in particular. Muslims are revolting and dying for democratic change. Not one article by the freedom loving Greenwald has even addressed this fundamental drive for political rights.
As I have mentioned (today, in fact), the drive for political rights has been undercut for several reasons. The first is the reluctance of dictators to relinquish power – at all costs (Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Bahrain etc.) The second is the rise of Islamists who took advantage of the democracy movement (Arab Spring) to conquer territory through violence like ISIS (in progress). The third is the sectarian divide in the Middle East pitting Sunni against Shia and Iran against Saudi Arabia. Another reason is the economic importance of this region to the world. Powers like Russia, China, the US and Europe want stability through support of the status quo (US – Egypt; Russia, Hezbollah, Iran – Syria). The people fighting and dying who really just sought a say in their government were (and are) fighting an uphill battle for freedom and democracy.
“…..Fighting groups portray themselves as the true defenders of an Ummah (the entire Muslim community) invaded and under attack, to broad public support.”….”
However, the more violent forms of Islamic fundamentalism do hate our freedoms like the ISIS, Taliban, Abu Sayyef, al-Qaeda and al-Qaeda in north Africa (like Yemen and Mali), Boko Haram and so on. Islamic terrorism/fundamentalism is not a fight for freedom or revenge, but a fight to gain power and impose anti freedom measures like Sharia law on the population (like in Afghanistan, the Philippines etc.). They are not driven by US policies, but many do hope to change our foreign policy with violence (terrorism).
The committee which you cling to is wrong in many regional conflicts – like in Yemen, Mali, Afghanistan, the Taliban in Pakistan and many other locations around the world where Islamic terrorists seek power through violence directed at civilian populations – and are anti freedom to the very core of their philosophy. Muslims are the largest recipient of Islamic terrorism – something the committee seems to have overlooked. The committee did the best possible job, but failed out of ignorance.
“…….This is the larger strategic context, and it is acutely uncomfortable: U.S. policies and actions are increasingly seen by the overwhelming majority of Muslims as a threat to the survival of Islam itself. […]….”
There must be a lot of Muslims who are not familiar with history. How do Muslims perceive the liberation of Afghanistan from the Russians? After all, this one of the most cited negatives of the Russian invasion of Afghanistan – training of Muslim extremist. Indeed, the US created an independent Muslim majority state in Kosovo, and although late to the party, helped in the liberation of Bosnia. The US liberated Kuwait as well from the brutal dictator, Saddam Hussein (and the Shia and Kurds in the Iraq invasion). The US has always supported Turkey as a member of NATO including their entrance into the EU. The “committee” seems to have forgotten where the US has liberated and supported Muslims – and mostly oil was not a factor (like Iraq).
“….. Furthermore, in the eyes of Muslims, American occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq has not led to democracy there, but only more chaos and suffering. U.S. actions appear in contrast to be motivated by ulterior motives, and deliberately controlled in order to best serve American national interests at the expense of truly Muslim self-determination…..”
The invasion of Afghanistan was not a war of liberation, but to oust the Taliban from power as they supported the terrorists training camps used to murder innocent civilians world-wide, and they refused to turn over Bin Laden who was responsible for 911. As Steb has noted, there have been significant improvements in the country especially for women. The tribal nature of Afghanistan makes the transition to democracy a huge challenge. The Taliban continue to fight, and according to the UN, are responsible for 75% of the civilian casualties – that’s Islamic terrorists murdering more innocent Muslims. The committee missed the boat on this war by a mile.
Each area mentioned by the committee needs to be looked at through the complex developments in their society both politically and culturally. The committee was guilty of simplifying complex conflicts and denying the role of Islamic fundamentalism and their drive for power which is motivated (in part) by globalization and resisting the imposition of western values on Muslims. Muslims on Muslim violence has increased through the roof especially in Syria rendering the idea of US killing Muslims inane.
The most wonderful thing about anti Americanism is the simplification of every conflict to: it’s America’s fault, and it was about oil although where was the oil in Vietnam, Korea, Taiwan, Kosovo, Bosnia?
By the way Mona, you have to love the way that far left wingers selectively quote the government they hate when it supports their arguments. Of course, there never is a credibility issue in those cases – but there is plenty to take issue with from the results of the committee (how much did this cost the taxpayers?)
I’m not familiar with these “far left-wingers” of whom you obsessively write. What they quote or do not quote is not in my knowledge bank.
What I do know is that a bunch of scholars told the Rumsfeld Pentagon a pile of truth that went against the interest of the neocon fairy tale.
Most of your “reply” is a bunch of (yet more) hand-waving. The reasons for Muslim internecinewarfare are many and I do not address that topic.
But as to the question of why they hate us — why they target us — THOSE reasons are adumbrated in the Defense Science Board Report, which in turn is also supported by other students of the matter, and serves as foundation for the views of Glenn Greenwald and many of us.
That you dislike the Report, and the frequency with which I and other cite it, does not change its great merit.
“……Most of your “reply” is a bunch of (yet more) hand-waving. The reasons for Muslim internecinewarfare are many and I do not address that topic…..”
Well, of course not Mona.
“……But as to the question of why they hate us — why they target us — THOSE reasons are adumbrated in the Defense Science Board Report, which in turn is also supported by other students of the matter, and serves as foundation for the views of Glenn Greenwald and many of us…..”
Yea. You keep clinging the idiotic committee reports by a panel of “experts”. In a New York Times article yesterday about the targeted attack of free speech and Jews, the New York Times noted:
“……European governments, like Denmark’s, are also trying to understand and stop young Muslims from traveling to Syria and Iraq to fight as jihadists. At least 5,000 Europeans are estimated to have already done so — at least 100 of them Danish — and there are fears that some of those fighters will return home to commit domestic terrorism…..”
Muslims traveling to Syria to murder Muslims. Of course, you don’t want to address that topic. Europe has a serious problem in my opinion. These particular folks do not love our freedoms, Mona.
Terrible though they are, these 21 murders are a small part of the violence that has devastated Libya. Mr Greenwald understands this; you do not. You ignore the destruction caused by the US military and pile disrespect on all those killed, especially those whose deaths you use for your disgusting political agenda.
Mike
“…..Terrible though they are, these 21 murders are a small part of the violence that has devastated Libya…..”
I agree, but every terrorist attack in the west is countered by Greenwald with some excuse – a justification. There is always a deflection from the attack itself. In Boston, Americans were racist for even thinking this might be an act of Islamic terrorism. The attacks in Paris (where he omitted any reference to the Jewish target) were followed by a rant directed at Israel in cartoon form. The burning to death of the Jordan pilot was followed with an article about western violence. He ignored the story about the murdered prosecutor in Argentina which accused the Argentina government of covering up a terrorist attack supported by Iran which left 85 Jews dead at a Jewish Community Center. Of course that was OK Mike. Jews everywhere deserve to be murdered because of Israeli policies. These are not stories which don’t interest Greenwald. His world view is simply that Muslim violence is justified in the face of western imperialism – so that story is a non story.
The brutal beheading of the Coptic Christians was blamed on the west for intervention in the first place and by referring to the same study as he always references to blame the US policies for creating terrorists.
He ignored another attack on Jews in Holland – and not for any other reason I can find other than what Scahill published about two days after the Paris attacks:
“……“I [Awlaki] support what Umar Farouk has done after I have been seeing my brothers being killed in Palestine for more than sixty years…..”
It’s fairly cowardly journalism in my opinion. The reason Greenwald ignored the attack in Holland (in Greenwald’s own words)?
“……Indeed, much of that US violence is grounded in if not expressly justified by religion, including the aggressive attack on Iraq and steadfast support for Israeli aggression (to say nothing of the role Judaism plays in the decades-long oppression by the Israelis of Palestinians and all sorts of attacks on neighboring Arab and Muslim countries)…….”
“…….As usual, don’t look for Democratic partisan to object to any of this. To the extent that they talk about the sanctions regime at all, it is typically to celebrate it: as proof of Barack Obama’s “toughness” and his fealty to Israeli interests…..”
“……That study concluded that “Muslims do not ‘hate our freedom,’ but rather, they hate our policies”: specifically “American direct intervention in the Muslim world” — through the US’s “one sided support in favor of Israel”; support for Islamic tyrannies in places like Egypt and Saudi Arabia; and, most of all, “the American occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan”……”
“…..It is simply true that there are large and extremely influential Jewish donor groups which are agitating for a U.S. war against Iran, and that is the case because those groups are devoted to promoting Israel’s interests and they perceive it to be in Israel’s interests for the U.S. to militarily confront Iran.……”
The idea that Jews run our foreign policy is an old one.
Thanks.
You wrote:
But Glenn wrote:
What insight are you avoiding by interpreting what Glenn wrote as blame?
That the west will use this as a pretext to start another bombing campaign, I suppose. If that is what you are referencing, then I didn’t miss it. Just for your information, I didn’t support intervention in Libya or Syria although I supported arming the opposition. However, I did see the reasoning behind the intervention in Libya in lieu of the Arab Spring.
“The ongoing conflict in Syria should be a reminder of the geopolitical complexities that are outside of the control of western intervention.”
Um, it was the US and Saudis funding and arming those who turned peaceful protests into a violent war in Syria… a covert “intervention” that empowered both al Qaida and IS… and cannot be claimed to be “outside of our control” or an example of what could happen without intervention.
Pretending that Assad is responsible for all the resulting deaths our intervention caused is a recurring and shameful false line.
In any case, GG reporting on how it is that IS terrorists are now able to act inside Libya is not “deflecting”. It’s journalism.
Being unhappy about how it makes the warmongers look doesn’t change that fact.
“……Um, it was the US and Saudis funding and arming those who turned peaceful protests into a violent war in Syria… a covert “intervention” that empowered both al Qaida and IS… and cannot be claimed to be “outside of our control” or an example of what could happen without intervention…..”
That is a complete and total fabrication. Assad cracked down violently on protests. Assad started the war attacking innocent protesters with tanks, artillery and war planes as documented by Amnesty International:
“…..Background: When army tanks recently rolled into the city of Dera’a in southern Syria and began shelling residential areas, the human rights crisis in the country reached a new low. More than 400 people have died across Syria since protestors calling for political reform took to the streets in mid-March. Hundreds of people have been arbitrarily arrested and detained incommunicado, placing them at serious risk of torture and other ill-treatment. Torture of detainees has long been common and endemic in Syria…..Amnesty International has repeatedly urged the Syrian government to rein in the security forces……The Syrian authorities have failed to take these steps and intensified repression. Consequently, Amnesty International has called on the UN Security Council to refer Syria to the Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court, to impose an arms embargo and to freeze the assets abroad of the Syrian President and his senior associates…”
Afterwards, Saudi Arabia probably decided to arm the opposition, but the US didn’t for two years or so.
Wow.
Head in the clouds.
Just because US and Saudi involvement was covert, doesn’t mean there wasn’t reporting on it (thanks foreign media).
The US had already spent over 300 million on the effort before publicly acknowledging we were getting involved two years after the fact.
The CIA funding and facilitation of Saudi deliveries of weapons and transport of fighters was not “afterwards”.
The crackdown in Syria began when foreign militants among the peaceful protestors shot and killed Syrian police monitoring the protests.
It escalated when Syrian Sunnis took up arms and chose to fight alongside the foreign militants… violating everything the Arab Spring was about.
The “Assad started it” refrain is hollow for everyone who was following the events as they happened.
The Amnesty report you cite about tanks and planes was actually weeks into the fighting, and was not about first blood… thus does not support your claim.
Yes, torture by Syrian security forces was as common as at US black sites and US run Iraqi prisons… which is why Assad was a go-to partner for neocons in US renditions.
Was there a relevant Amnesty report on US torture you’d like to cite for comparison or are we just going with selective outrage?
In any case, it still violates common sense and decency to absolve al Qaida, IS and the “moderate” Syrians who chose to fight alongside them of all the violence that occurred at their hands and solely blame Assad as you have many times.
Nor does it serve as an example of non-intervention… as even your inaccurate timeline admits we did get involved… which I would have thought you could at least acknowledge regarding your initial comment.
“……The Amnesty report you cite about tanks and planes was actually weeks into the fighting, and was not about first blood… thus does not support your claim……”
I hate those Amnesty Reports also. They are so conclusive. Thanks for your reply, Bashar.
Impressive response.
Refusing to admit when you are wrong even when your own words showed exactly that and ignoring the comments you can’t dispute is one way to approach it.
Our bombing of terrorists in Syria and Assad saying his country is being attacked by terrorists creates a quandary for those who insist that nothing Assad says is true, so you just keep clinging to the belief that how they got there, when they got there, and who paid and supplied them makes all the difference… even if it violates common sense.
No, no, no… America would never use proxies in a covert effort.
I won’t hold my breath for an apology in 30 years when the documents are declassified… and the journalists who exposed the effort are shown to have been correct.
“……I won’t hold my breath for an apology in 30 years when the documents are declassified…..”
Wait until you are blue in the face, but you still can’t produce anything to back your story up. Bashar Assad cracked down violently on peaceful democratic demonstrators like his father did in 1982 when thousands were brutally murdered. His father was able to put down a rebellion. Unfortunately, Bashir tried the same tactic leading to the current civil/regional war. The US has stayed clear of the war for the most except for some training of rebels in Jordan early on. After a full two years, the US began supplying rebels with limited arms. The Saudis and other Arab states have funded the rebel effort including jihadists.
However, the war is solely the responsibility of Assad and his murderous authoritarian regime. In addition, Iran has funded and supplied boots on the ground (remember the Iranian general killed last week by Israel air strike?). Russia has funded and supplied arms and (Lebanese) Hezbollah is fighting on the side of Assad. All of these you ignore while lying about the US involvement. You cannot fabricate US blame on documents you say will be available in thirty years. Try doing some outside reading.
Ignoring the journalism that exposed our instigation and toeing the line of the accepted history is expected.
But you’re slowly coming around.
Now you’re admitting the training “early on”, followed by “limited arms” after a “full two years”, and that our “allies” (who can’t act without our knowledge and assistance) are actually responsible for the funding and the arming and the importing of jihadists, not us…
… which of course followed the “non-lethal aid” that came before the “limited arms” we publicly admitted to… which of course followed the covert funding for weapons purchases and logistics… which all started with the desire for regime change (admitted publicly after two years and now being officially reconsidered given the realities of the alternative).
Interesting too that only a few days ago there was a public press release about how the US successfully targeted the IS chemical weapons guru (my word not theirs)… this after insisting for so long that the “rebels” could not possibly be responsible for the chemical attacks in Syria. Their boasting now exposes their previous claims.
Thinner and thinner ice.
The current lack of publicly available US documents doesn’t prove a thing.
That’s the whole idea of “covert” operations.
The journalism (from Israel where leaks from those who preferred Assad to unpredictable Sunni extremists emanated, from Spain where the US funded weapons purchases in Bosnia were documented, from Lebanon where witnesses to deliveries were interviewed) can all be found… even the NYT alluded to our efforts in a few articles…
… but you have to want to know the truth.
We stirred the pot, and good.
And yet, here you are repeating the “only one side is responsible for all the killing” line again.
“…..Now you’re admitting the training “early on”, followed by “limited arms” after a “full two years”, and that our “allies” (who can’t act without our knowledge and assistance) are actually responsible for the funding and the arming and the importing of jihadists, not us……”
That’s because I’m honest about the minimal US role in the Syrian war. I also quoted Amnesty which you cannot refute. You are simply a classic far left wing wacko driven by anti-Americanism. Produced any real evidence yet? Or are we going to have to wait those thirty years?
Thanks.
Why read the comment and respond when you can just repeat yourself as if I wrote nothing right?
Again. Impressive.
BTW, who was it again doing the “training early on in Jordan”?
I guess “minimal” intervention is the same as non-intervention in your world.
As long as we only paid for it and trained those doing it and didn’t put boots on the ground we aren’t “involved” except “minimally”.
Thanks for clarifying your self-contradictions.
Craig, Libya is well on their way to becoming Somalia (and Somalia seems to be getting things together, but that’s another story). Part of the reason that Libya is in the mess that it is from uncontrolled flow of small arms to unreliable rebel allies, who have shown that they will do what they choose once they gain some power. No guns, no militias. I can’t find the link to the article anymore, but we have gotten smarter with arming rebels. We now give them more unique weapons that shoot specialized ammo. This way we put a time table on the fighting and they become dependent on the U.S. for re-ups. Supplying rebels with commercial weapons or old Soviet guns is a great way to keep people shooting at each other for a long time since parts and ammo are easy to come by or produce. This also prevents them from turning their guns back on us.
Also Rwanda isn’t as black and white as you may think. Kagame is basically a dictator who came to rule Rwanda from a Ugandan invasion of former Rwandan aristocrats in exile.
There’s -at least- two blatantly obvious reasons why the US (and their -mostly blindly- following allies) repeat these “accidents”.
1. The main “aggressor” (the former USSR) no longer exists since the Cold War ended in the early 90’s. The US needed a new enemy to further internal interests (read: R&D and budget for the military and affiliated companies who provide the gear and machinery). Having a common enemy outside the own country very much helps deflecting attention from more pressing internal issues, too.
It’s in their interest to keep the new enemy alive and make it appear to be a spreading disease, which can only be resolved by facing it with more war machinery and intelligence. Who would be better suited to wear this new enemy costume than a religious/cultural group which isn’t strictly bound to any nation or country and is therefore impossible to ultimately defeat?
2. Having created the fertile soil for terrorists to grow (special ops, drone attacks and full-on wars create a lot of hatred when you lose family, friends, your home…), the terrorists seek ways to retaliate. Surprise, surprise. Can you blame them? Some random drone strike might have killed a now-terrorist’s wife or kids.
And that’s not only expected but indeed welcome, from the US point of view, as this allows the government to rally forces (first and foremost the UK and the rest of “5 eyes”, but it doesn’t stop there) in their fight on personal freedom in their own country. Passing “fast-track laws” (like the Patriot Act, which was frequently abused), and snooping on everything and everyone, friend or foe, your own people included, has become so much easier!
Even the revelations about torture didn’t quite have the impact they should have had. People are getting used to ever increasing cruelty – even from their own governments. Guantanamo? Drone strikes in Pakistan happen on a regular basis and are okay? Anybody who looks like he might be a Muslim is already guilty of a shed load of crimes, just because…
And while we cannot make jokes about jews, it’s perfectly fine to take the piss of Muslims; Charlie Hebdo was a prime example to show how boundaries of so-called free speech shift and political correctness and anti-discrimination rules no longer applies to certain religions and cultures. We just keep poking them and wonder why they get angrier and angrier and as a result more brutal…
No, there’s no accident. There’s a friggin’ terrifying agenda behind all this. And what’s most worrying is the question when or how or if it will ever end.
Call me a conspiracy theorist if you must, but keep your eyes and mind open and look what happened to each single individual in “free” countries in the western world in the past 15 years. Let’s see who can still shrug it off and laugh about it 15 years from now.
Meanwhile, what’s the takeaway from the wars in Iraq, Somalia, Afghanistan? What did we achieve there? Was it what we set out to achieve or is it as bad, if not worse, than before? (I’m curious, albeit not very hopeful, to see what happens a few years after troops have pulled out of Afghanistan.)
The people making these decisions are not stupid. All of this is by design, and money is at the root of it. It’s hard to admit that because people die, and it’s too scary to think that Americans could intentionally send other Americans into harms way. It’s easier to believe that we just keep making mistakes.
Make it a law that anyone involved in the decision to go to war has to serve on the front lines and we’ll turn into pacifists overnight…
As an alternative, we could declare that all war supplies will be commandeered from the companies who possess them. No legal recourse for compensation will be permitted, because our country cannot afford to pay the cost of fighting a war. All US companies will have to pitch in if Congress truly believes that our way of life is at stake.
If we take the profit out of war, the military-industrial complex will stop promoting war as a solution to every problem.
From an Article Sixteen Things Libyans will never see again:
1 There is no electricity bill in Libya; electricity is free for all its citizens.
2 There is no interest on loans, banks in Libya are state-owned and loans given to all its citizens at zero percent interest by law.
3 Having a home considered a human right in Libya.
4 All newlyweds in Libya receive $60,000 dinar (U.S.$50,000) by the government to buy their first apartment so to help start up the family.
5 Education and medical treatments are free in Libya. Before Gaddafi only 25 percent of Libyans were literate. Today, the figure is 83 percent.
6 Should Libyans want to take up farming career, they would receive farming land, a farming house, equipments, seeds and livestock to kickstart their farms are all for free.
7 If Libyans cannot find the education or medical facilities they need, the government funds them to go abroad, for it is not only paid for, but they get a U.S.$2,300/month for accommodation and car allowance.
8 If a Libyan buys a car, the government subsidizes 50 percent of the price.
9 The price of petrol in Libya is $0.14 per liter.
10 Libya has no external debt and its reserves amounting to $150 billion are now frozen globally.
11 If a Libyan is unable to get employment after graduation the state would pay the average salary of the profession, as if he or she is employed, until employment is found.
12 A portion of every Libyan oil sale is credited directly to the bank accounts of all Libyan citizens.
13 A mother who gives birth to a child receive U.S.$5,000.
14 40 loaves of bread in Libya costs $0.15.
16 25 percent of Libyans have a university degree.
Gaddafi carried out the world’s largest irrigation project, known as the Great Man made River project, to make water readily available throughout the desert country.
There’s one sin that isn’t countenanced by the U.S., and that’s socialism. That was Gaddafi’s biggest outrage. The murder and the mayhem aren’t a big deal at all–we’re actually quite fond of that.
One small clarification, Glenn: Howard Dean, it should be clear now (as it was apparent to leftists then), was not actually opposed to war. He falsely portrayed himself as being from the left, and opportunistically criticized the drive to war on Iraq, but was unapologetically for the illegal war on Afghanistan, a country which did not attack the US and which did not pose an imminent threat to the US. Auditioning for the role of the administrator of the capitalist-imperialist system, he was unabashed in his chauvinism and conspicuous in his willful forgetting of the history of Washington’s support of right wing terrorist groups, which, as you’ve pointed out in exposing his work for anti-Iran terrorist groups, is far more revealing of who Dean actually is. See http://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/sep/20/afghanistan.weekend7
How short the collective memory can be. Gadaffi upon seizing power from an authoritarian monarchy fought for women’s rights, seeing to it that they be allowed, for the first time, to attend university. Can the war mongers expect the same from the militia who govern the country today? Oh, I forgot. Obama couldn’t possibly be a warmonger. He has a Nobel Peace Prize!
Once could be carelessness, but twice is an agenda. So let’s look at the pattern:
– Smash the central government;
– Local militias arise;
– They capture caches of American weapons;
– US tests asymmetrical warfare techniques (special ops, drones, air strikes) against them;
– Outfit police forces in the US in similar style with ‘surplus’ equipment.
Seems inconclusive, but it’s worth watching to see what develops.
Yes, Duce, although your pattern doesn’t show an endpoint, but in fact may be a repetitive cycle, and not just in Libya.
I’m a bit surprised, in the headlines above, to see that Italy was eager for NATO to go in. You’d think Italy would remember its own experiences pacifying Libya, 1911-1940 — unless, of course, Italy was willing to let NATO do the fighting this time.
BTW, the Guardian has a summary of the current Libyan troubles and hyperlinks for various resources and experts.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/16/libyas-armed-politics-the-guardian-briefing
FWIW.
Maybe Italy is being inspired by memories of the Punic wars.
Someone will be able to buy the shattered oil fields for a song from whatever puppet regime is set up in Libya. Why not Eni?
” In other words, the very same NATO countries that dropped bombs on Libya in order to remove its government collectively ignored the aftermath once their self-celebrations were over. ”
The aftermath – the chaos and complete destruction of the nation – WAS the desired objective.
“…desired objective.”
Precisely.
On the point of humanitarian wars, what about the French intervention in Mali? I’m sure they have other motivations, and I’m not very familiar with the details of the conflict, but on the surface the French involvement seems a bit more altruistic than current U.S. or UK military actions.
True, but the French didn’t intervene to destroy a government but to save it. Even if (to their credit) they made sure elections would follow.
It certainly wasn’t altruistic, even if the local people were mostly grateful. Mali is a former colony and very much part of what France still considers to be its back yard. A salafist takeover of the country would also have endangered Niger (where France gets most of its uranium from), Mauretania, Burkina Faso and especially Senegal with which France has very close and even emotional relations (and a large immigrant community).
But I think the French intervention in Mali was much less one of the “humanitarian wars” the West has launched since 9/11 than a throwback to post-colonial practice under which France ultimately guarantees some level of stability to its former colonies.
The lesson of Libya – which frankly we didn’t need, since we could have learned the lesson in Iraq and elsewhere – to me is not so much that humanitarian intervention is always wrong, but that it should never morph into an attempt to effectuate regime change. Because that’s where the Libyan intervention went wrong: when Nato overstepped its UN mandate to protect the civilian population, e.g. of Benghazi, and (illegally in my eyes) interpreted that mandate as authorizing the destruction of the central government.
Good points. I think when a government is causing harm to its citizens outside parties could look to remove abusers and try to use the structure of the current system than completely overthrow the government and put the entire country into a state of turmoil where various factions think they can take over.
So the US kills the strongmen of two countries and expects democracy to arise? If they off Putin will Russia join NATO? If the Republicans stage a coup and take out Obama, can we expect Jesus to return? Let ISIS have their country and their laws. People who like it can stay, others can leave. There is no Iraq outside of Baghdad and no Libya at all. Syria will soon follow. If the western nations are such superior civilizations, they should be willing to prove it. ISIS is not barbaric enough to kill women, which the west does with impunity. Kayla Mueller wrote her parents before she died that she was well taken care of and had even gained weight! The west wants to blame ISIS for her death, but it is more likely that they are telling the truth that a Jordanian bombing run killed her. Obama has no moral high ground on ISIS, not when he bombs wedding parties and claims they were terrorists.
I was under the impression there is no Syria outside Damascus. Also is leaving that simple? I don’t think it is, people can theoretically leave, but someone else needs to be willing to accept refugees. And there is the possibility of ISIS militants who would pretend to be refugees to cause harm elsewhere. I imagine it is a lot easier for women and children to be taken as refugees that military age males who want nothing to do with ISIS.
This is a tough one. On one hand, you’re of course right that the U.S. goes off half-cocked without a plan more often than not, with all too predictable a result. Yet I worry that the sentiment you express, however reasonable, leads to some unholy hybrid of pacifism and the divine right of dictators. The U.S. has a cultural expectation that it is possible to stop a Hitler or a Tojo and have a peaceful country afterward with democratic values. Why doesn’t that always work? Can you predict it? It is clear that when your problem with a country is the capabilities of its war machine, and you destroy its war machine, that is a lot more sure to have a noticeable positive result than killing this person or that and hoping they’ll do better. Still… if you had a shot at the Caliph, and you passed on it, wouldn’t you feel responsible for all the people he would continue killing simply because they won’t worship him?
If only the author were as clever in their understanding of the premises that separate US entry into WWII vs TheGrandMidEastFollies as s/he is with that turn of phrase.
Gee, duh, I dunno. Thinking…thinking…thinking…
See, it’s just like a business opportunity, or a chance for a really good deal on a car.
Does the fact that this had absolutely nothing to do with any sort of concern for the people of Libya bother you? There’s a lot of dictators in this world my friend.
>”Can you predict it?”
I believe a legitimate case for ‘humanitarian intervention’ can be made … but Gaddafi’s Libya sure as hell wasn’t it.
Yes. Yes, this is largely an outcome the likelihood of which one can predict with some level of confidence.
Pre-Reich Germany had been a quintessential Western nation with experience of democratic values and institutions. Expecting her to revert to such values and practices wasn’t a tremendous leap.
Japan was homogenous, with virtually no internal strife and social fractures. Once the revered Emperor ordered the Japanese to totally cooperate with the U.S. democratization process, every honorable Japanese did so.
Success in: 1. a nation that already has all the foundations for liberal democracy, and 2. a nation whose ruling god orders all subjects to obey the U.S. soldiers is of limited portent. To take those two unusual cultural situations to mean the U.S. can willy-nilly be about “building nations” — hither and yon around the globe — is moronic in the extreme.
Mona
You should not forget about Chinese Taiwan and South Korea (both dictatorships that transitioned to democracies) – and eastern Europe which has been transitioning to democracies as well after the downfall of the Soviets. In fact, China has economically liberalized with great success and the only reason China does not transition to a full fledged democracy is because the Communist Party holds onto power (not out out of any real concern for the Chinese people). South American countries have also transitioned to mostly democratic societies.
So why is the Muslim Middle East so difficult for democracy to take hold? I can think of several reasons. The first is the reluctance of dictators to relinquish power – at all costs (Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Bahrain etc.)). The second is the rise of Islamists who took advantage of the democracy movement (Arab Spring) to conquer territory through violence like ISIS (in progress). The third is the sectarian divide in the Middle East pitting Sunni against Shia and Iran against Saudi Arabia. Another reason is the economic importance of this region to the world. Powers like Russia, China, the US and Europe want stability through support of the status quo (US – Egypt; Russia, Hezbollah, Iran – Syria). The people fighting and dying who really just sought a say in their government were (and are) fighting an uphill battle for freedom and democracy.
I forgot nothing. None of those is an example of democracy imposed from without; of “nation-building.”
Western interventionalists and war profiteers are directly responsible for creating ISIS…Everyone knew what would happen, but they did it anyway for the purpose of perpetual war and destabilization in the middle east. I say drop bilderberg members, UN members, CFR members, etc who supported the overthrow and destabilization of Libya off in the ISIS camps and let them “party” together.
Connect the dots.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/libya-pipeline-explosion-called-sabotage-1424032196
Excellent article Mr. Greenwald,
Yes, but rather then “accidental”, the process functions like a “business model” to perpetuate the whole “terror industry” well into the future..like a massive, obscenely expensive, self-perpetuating , self-metastasizing “machine”…the goal of which , (all others proving false or alterable),is merely the profits from its own perpetuation !
People have been asking “Why is ISIS so barbaric” (and they are barbaric)
I guess I see it in terms of adaptation….ISIS is best adapted to flourish in the hellish conditions Americans have created whenever they have attacked. And It is not as if American supported regimes are not barbaric at all. General Sisi is racking up the head count as we speak, killing politicians, students, lawyers, journalists and other “terrorists”. To defeat him, without western aid, indeed with the west taking Sisi’s side, would take a the likes of a group like ISIS…(peaceful democratic opposition having failed).
“This is the funeral of the (2011) revolution” Mamdouh Hamza, a prominent figure from the anti-Mubarak uprising, told an AFP correspondent in central Cairo.
“The murderer kills, and then joins the funeral procession. Nothing has improved or changed since Sisi took over.”
Activists, including those who spearheaded the anti-Mubarak revolt, have accused Sisi of reviving aspects of Mubarak’s autocratic rule.
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2015/01/protester-killed-as-egypt-marks-anniversary-of-2011-democratic-revolt/
It is really sad, the opportunity lost in Egypt. They had their “flower power” moment in Tahrir square. Mubarak was buzzing the crowd of thousands with his F16s, one person in the crowd said to a journalist “What are they going to do? Bomb us?” and the decisive moment came when the soldiers switched sides and refused to fire on the protesters:
“Last night, a military officer guarding the tens of thousands celebrating in Cairo threw down his rifle and joined the demonstrators, yet another sign of the ordinary Egyptian soldier’s growing sympathy for the democracy demonstrators. We had witnessed many similar sentiments from the army over the past two weeks. But the critical moment came on the evening of 30 January when, it is now clear, Mubarak ordered the Egyptian Third Army to crush the demonstrators in Tahrir Square with their tanks after flying F-16 fighter bombers at low level over the protesters.
Many of the senior tank commanders could be seen tearing off their headsets – over which they had received the fatal orders – to use their mobile phones. They were, it now transpires, calling their own military families for advice. Fathers who had spent their lives serving the Egyptian army told their sons to disobey, that they must never kill their own people.”
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-as-mubarak-clings-on-what-now-for-egypt-2211287.html
The US government celebrates the success of crushing Black movement organizations by assassinations of the Black leadership, such as Fred Hampton, and thinks such problems can be “solved” by the same means in other established organizations such as the nations Iraq and Libya.
I posted a reply to Don Midwest’s comment over a half an hour ago. It still hasn’t posted. Been long, long, long wishing that the Intercept would trash this disturbingly inadequate “preview” system so that when a person goes to the trouble to interact in the conversation they are not shut out as though they were standing in some far corner, unheard and unseen.
So far the rule so far as I can tell is that if you post one link it seems like it goes through, but two and it gets stuck in a holding pattern. I agree that robo-moderation is evil, especially when that medium is so opposed to the message. I mean, it seems like a minor annoyance, yet… it’s the same kind of thinking behind letting drones shoot at people based on behavioral characteristics. People never know if they’re getting discriminated against for a job because some machine, shielded from any backtalk, simply decides something about their history is unlikely or undesirable. And so on. In a post-labor world, where human effort is unwanted, where the opportunity to participate is a hoarded treasure, where the governance of nations (even down to speeches written based on word counts!) is left to malfunctioning machines, what can humans do but lose and die out forever?
I agree with the problem you stated about the ‘not knowing why’ is unavoidably a result of the seemingly arbitrary ‘No Shows’ of posts. But the deal about the multiple links thing, while that is I’m sure still one of the culprits in some instances, it is not by far the only culprit. For example in the comment/reply I was referring to of my own, there were no links in my comment.
The big problem with this is that there must be some people who have visited The Intercept, saw the how the comment system was ether locking out others or locking them out and then they just did not return. The point of Glenn, Laura and Jeremy of having started The Intercept was to bring as much attention to what they and others here write as is possible to do. So, WTF, let’s get this summbich fixed god damnit.
Re: Feb 16 – Kitt at 11:16 AM & 1 PM; Wnt at 12:21 pm
While I agree that it is definitely strange that such a well funded venture, especially one that is staffed and supported by so many ostensibly tech savvy people, is content with providing such a poorly designed comment system for its subscribers; especially beings several excellent ones are readily available, some of which will even customise their offering according to the sites needs.
Regarding the current system, I have found that once I’ve finished a comment and clicked “post comment”, and follow that by clicking on the back arrow and return to THE//INTERCEPT front page; when I then click back on the article upon which I have just commented, my comment is posted exactly where I posted it. If I then select another article and post a comment, the same process works regardless of how many topics I comment on, or how many links or hyperlinks I include in the body of the text.
As Usual,
EA
Addendum:
Here I am again!
(;-})
Propagandized 101..
re: Apparently / Purportedly / Allegedly
“ISIS yesterday released a new video (*apparently – **purportedly/allegedly) showing the beheading..”
Once again, we are being informed of these ‘atrocities’, sans any irrefutable evidence to substantiate said (repetitive) claims. Where is the ‘investigative journalism’ w/ respect to validating these ‘apparent’ videos that are being utilized as the basis for continued war??
*Apparently – (Note: article’s link.)
**Purportedly/Allegedly (Note: link below)
President Sisi had vowed to ‘avenge the criminal killings’ after release of video PURPORTING to show killing of 21 Christians, believed to be kidnapped Egyptians
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/15/isis-post-video-allegedly-showing-mass-beheading-of-coptic-christian-hostages
-”it was “obligated” to fight”
Right now, as western media discuss the hows and wheres and with whats of fighting ISIS…what strikes me the most is the way they jump over the “whys” of fighting ISIS in Libya, Iraq, Syria, wherever.
It is taken as a given by the main political parties, the governments and the media that If Isis is winning somewhere….western military forces must, in some fashion go and fight them where they are.
…and ISIS will be replaced by…WHAT? What other group has more legitimacy, and in what way?
For Humanitarian intervention to work, for it to be anything other than a risible pretext, for it to be legitimate, they would have had to replace Hussein, Gadaffi, with something closer to a rights respecting democracy. And they didn’t spend much effort doing that. In Iraq Obama left a sectarian leader. And in Libya, he left total chaos. So if Obama is replacing one despotic ruling group, with another…how can we but suspect that the driving reason for the attacks on Muslim countries with oil wells is, western self interest?
…meanwhile in US backed, post-democracy Egypt…no signs of an impending US invasion, coup, or anything other than more US military support:
-”Cairo (CNN)An Egyptian court triggered an international uproar Monday, confirming a death sentence for 183 defendants.
“…Issuing mass death sentences whenever the case involves the killing of police officers now appears to be near-routine policy, regardless of facts and with no attempt to establish individual responsibility,” Sahraoui added.”
http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/02/world/egypt-court/
…In thinking on this some more…I should have just pasted Chomsky:
“One might take the heroic stand that in the special case of the United States, facts are irrelevant. Thus the Eaton Professor of the Science of Government at Harvard instructs us that the United States must maintain its “international primacy” for the benefit of the world, because its “national identity is defined by a set of universal political and economic values,” namely “liberty, democracy, equality, private property, and markets” (Samuel Huntington). Since this is a matter of definition, so the Science of Government teaches, it would be an error of logic to bring up the factual record. What may have happened in history is merely “the abuse of reality,” an elder statesman of the “realist” school explained 30 years ago; “reality itself” is the unachieved “national purpose” revealed by “the evidence of history as our minds reflect it,” and that shows that the “transcendent purpose” of the United States is “the establishment of equality in freedom in America,” and indeed throughout the world, since “the arena within which the United States must defend and promote its purpose has become world-wide” (Hans Morgenthau).
Assuming these doctrines, it would be an elementary error, in evaluating Washington’s promotion of human rights, to consider the close correlation between US aid and torture, running right through the Carter years, including military aid and independent of need, an inquiry that would be pointless to undertake as Shultz, Abrams, et al. took the reins. And our love of democracy is also immune to empirical evaluation. “
http://www.chomsky.info/articles/199401–02.htm
…and yet humanitarian intervention remains an appealing concept…Many inside and outside the US government and other governments genuinely believe in it. I would support it if a means was found to prevent its abuse. But as it stands, the cause of “humanitarian intervention” will only suffer if it is merely in support of great power manoeuvrings.
Design, all the way down for some such as neocon sociopath Michael Ledeen,who in the lead-up to the Iraq War enunciated the “Cauldriniazation Doctrine” against effete realists such as Brent Scowcroft. Scowcroft warned that by invading and deposing Saddam we risked turning the region into a “cauldron.”
Escaping briefly from his minders, Ledeen took to the pages of National Review and cackled forth a reply (that cannot be located there any longer):
So at least for Ledeen and fellow necon death peddlers, chaos and destruction is our exact goal in the “war on terror.” For them, Libya today is the desired result.
The odds favor “by design”! As you point out, this is a doctrine that has been articulated by Ledeen – but, more importantly, by other leading darks of the same persuasion. And, like any movement where there is an opportunity to make money, this one has attracted profiteers and careerists, and so forth.
This I do not get. This gloating partisanship that amounts – repeatedly – in the pot calling the kettle black. Cognitive dissonance should recognize no ideological categories.
Tom Levenson isn’t an idiot. He – from his writing and his podcasts – is an intelligent and accomplished individual.*** I anticipate that come the 2016 election none of this cognitive dissonance will likely emanate from this writer. And, I genuinely cannot fathom why it won’t. Defenses this impenetrable, compartments this rigid, should be utterly inconsistent with the rest of who Tom Levenson seems to be.
**http://www.balloon-juice.com/2011/08/21/send-in-the-clowns
***http://sciwrite.mit.edu/faculty
Meanwhile, when security experts note that Guantanamo creates terrorists, the Republicans want more of the same.
“Senators Disregard Security Agencies’ Calls to Close Guantanamo, One Says Prisoners Can ‘Rot in Hell’”
http://dissenter.firedoglake.com/2015/02/05/every-last-one-of-them-can-rot-in-hell-senators-reject-military-intelligence-support-for-closing-guantanamo/
At a Senate Armed Services Committee hearing on policies related to the release of prisoners from Guantanamo Bay, a Pentagon official and an intelligence official testified on how closing the prison is a national security imperative. Yet, their expertise did not seem to matter.
One Democratic senator stood up for rationality.
Re-posting (hopefully) my lost comment:
However accurate, inaccurate or over-hyped the following statistics are which were quoted and posted in Kevin’s post, there is a problem with it that I don’t think even Kevin pointed out.
“…107 or 17.3% of the 620 detainees who had been transferred from Guantanamo had been confirmed of reengagement in terrorist or insurgent activities as of September 2014, and the IC assessed that an additional 77 former detainees, or 12.4%, were suspected of reengagement. Of the 88 transfers that occurred since the interagency process the DNI participates in was implemented in 2009, 6 or 6.8% were confirmed of reengagement in terrorist or insurgent activities, and 1 or 1.1% was suspected…”
The previously held detainees who were released were released because there was no evidence that they had ever engaged in “insurgent” or “terrorist” activities. They were all either kidnapped for bounty and turned over to US or UK military, or they were directly kidnapped by US or UK military during some door kicking raid of their homes or some other “All of the world is a battlefield” location. Therefore, the word “reengagement” would not apply to any percentage of the people noted in the far from trustworthy document at all. If any of them engaged in any way in insurgency or whatever, then being wrongly detained and also tortured would have to be considered as a relevant factor in their actions.
The war mongers have no conscience. The gloating and cheer leading over the corpses of Gadaffi, Hussein, and Bin Laden was sickening and it came from many whom I had previously thought of as fairly decent people. For instance… Cenk Uygur gloated over Bin Laden’s death as if it were a sports victory by the heroic star Obama, even though he thought of himself as one of Obama’s harshest critics. That bigoted tool Bill Maher did the same. Two of the previously mentioned tyrants was brutally murdered while being taunted by sadistic cowards, and the unarmed Bin Laden was shot in the face…. most likely to keep from having a trial. The U.S. has proved over and over again that it does not care about justice, just revenge. Sickening lack of soul. I suggest a soul vaccination all across the nation (thanks Tower of Power).
I dunno… if there’s a line of people having their rights cruelly violated it would be billions of people long and I’d put Osama bin Laden within sight of the very end of it. If he wants my posthumous sympathy he can take a number and wait. One has faith that God is better than that, and finds a way to save everyone, but … I’m not God.
I was simply pointing out the sickening cheer-leading for revenge instead of justice. The decency of the victim of revenge-justice does not factor into my thinking because it is not about them, it is about us.
`jk..
Appreciating the reference to Mr Uygur’s abysmal tact..
Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJWbjafywV8
Will American voters ever wise up to what both political parties are all about, suppressing the population of the USSA and a foreign empire that we can’t afford. Both parties obviously want World War III.