In August 2013, as evidence emerged of the active participation by New Zealand in the “Five Eyes” mass surveillance program exposed by Edward Snowden, the country’s conservative Prime Minister, John Key, vehemently denied that his government engages in such spying. He went beyond mere denials, expressly vowing to resign if it were ever proven that his government engages in mass surveillance of New Zealanders. He issued that denial, and the accompanying resignation vow, in order to reassure the country over fears provoked by a new bill he advocated to increase the surveillance powers of that country’s spying agency, Government Communications Security Bureau (GCSB) — a bill that passed by one vote thanks to the Prime Minister’s guarantees that the new law would not permit mass surveillance.
Since then, a mountain of evidence has been presented that indisputably proves that New Zealand does exactly that which Prime Minister Key vehemently denied — exactly that which he said he would resign if it were proven was done. Last September, we reported on a secret program of mass surveillance at least partially implemented by the Key government that was designed to exploit the very law that Key was publicly insisting did not permit mass surveillance. At the time, Snowden, citing that report as well as his own personal knowledge of GCSB’s participation in the mass surveillance tool XKEYSCORE, wrote in an article for The Intercept:
Let me be clear: any statement that mass surveillance is not performed in New Zealand, or that the internet communications are not comprehensively intercepted and monitored, or that this is not intentionally and actively abetted by the GCSB, is categorically false. . . . The prime minister’s claim to the public, that “there is no and there never has been any mass surveillance” is false. The GCSB, whose operations he is responsible for, is directly involved in the untargeted, bulk interception and algorithmic analysis of private communications sent via internet, satellite, radio, and phone networks.
A series of new reports last week by New Zealand journalist Nicky Hager, working with my Intercept colleague Ryan Gallagher, has added substantial proof demonstrating GCSB’s widespread use of mass surveillance. An article last week in The New Zealand Herald demonstrated that “New Zealand’s electronic surveillance agency, the GCSB, has dramatically expanded its spying operations during the years of John Key’s National Government and is automatically funnelling vast amounts of intelligence to the US National Security Agency.” Specifically, its “intelligence base at Waihopai has moved to ‘full-take collection,’ indiscriminately intercepting Asia-Pacific communications and providing them en masse to the NSA through the controversial NSA intelligence system XKeyscore, which is used to monitor emails and internet browsing habits.”
Moreover, the documents “reveal that most of the targets are not security threats to New Zealand, as has been suggested by the Government,” but “instead, the GCSB directs its spying against a surprising array of New Zealand’s friends, trading partners and close Pacific neighbours.” A second report late last week published jointly by Hager and The Intercept detailed the role played by GCSB’s Waihopai base in aiding NSA’s mass surveillance activities in the Pacific (as Hager was working with The Intercept on these stories, his house was raided by New Zealand police for 10 hours, ostensibly to find Hager’s source for a story he published that was politically damaging to Key).
That the New Zealand government engages in precisely the mass surveillance activities Key vehemently denied is now barely in dispute. Indeed, a former director of GCSB under Key, Sir Bruce Ferguson, while denying any abuse of New Zealander’s communications, now admits that the agency engages in mass surveillance.
Meanwhile, Russel Norman, the head of the country’s Green Party, said in response to these stories that New Zealand is “committing crimes” against its neighbors in the Pacific by subjecting them to mass surveillance, and insists that the Key government broke the law because that dragnet necessarily includes the communications of New Zealand citizens when they travel in the region.
So now that it’s proven that New Zealand does exactly that which Prime Minister Key vowed would cause him to resign if it were proven, is he preparing his resignation speech? No: that’s something a political official with a minimal amount of integrity would do. Instead — even as he now refuses to say what he has repeatedly said before: that GCSB does not engage in mass surveillance — he’s simply retracting his pledge as though it were a minor irritant, something to be casually tossed aside:
When asked late last week whether New Zealanders have a right to know what their government is doing in the realm of digital surveillance, the Prime Minister said: “as a general rule, no.” And he expressly refuses to say whether New Zealand is doing that which he swore repeatedly it was not doing, as this excellent interview from Radio New Zealand sets forth:
Interviewer: “Nicky Hager’s revelations late last week . . . have stoked fears that New Zealanders’ communications are being indiscriminately caught in that net. . . . The Prime Minister, John Key, has in the past promised to resign if it were found to be mass surveillance of New Zealanders . . . Earlier, Mr. Key was unable to give me an assurance that mass collection of communications from New Zealanders in the Pacific was not taking place.”
PM Key: “No, I can’t. I read the transcript [of former GCSB Director Bruce Ferguson’s interview] – I didn’t hear the interview – but I read the transcript, and you know, look, there’s a variety of interpretations – I’m not going to critique–”
Interviewer: “OK, I’m not asking for a critique. Let’s listen to what Bruce Ferguson did tell us on Friday:”
Ferguson: “The whole method of surveillance these days, is sort of a mass collection situation – individualized: that is mission impossible.”
Interviewer: “And he repeated that several times, using the analogy of a net which scoops up all the information. . . . I’m not asking for a critique with respect to him. Can you confirm whether he is right or wrong?”
Key: “Uh, well I’m not going to go and critique the guy. And I’m not going to give a view of whether he’s right or wrong” . . . .
Interviewer: “So is there mass collection of personal data of New Zealand citizens in the Pacific or not?”
Key: “I’m just not going to comment on where we have particular targets, except to say that where we go and collect particular information, there is always a good reason for that.”
From “I will resign if it’s shown we engage in mass surveillance of New Zealanders” to “I won’t say if we’re doing it” and “I won’t quit either way despite my prior pledges.” Listen to the whole interview: both to see the type of adversarial questioning to which U.S. political leaders are so rarely subjected, but also to see just how obfuscating Key’s answers are.
The history of reporting from the Snowden archive has been one of serial dishonesty from numerous governments: such as the way European officials at first pretended to be outraged victims of NSA only for it to be revealed that, in many ways, they are active collaborators in the very system they were denouncing. But, outside of the U.S. and U.K. itself, the Key government has easily been the most dishonest over the last 20 months: one of the most shocking stories I’ve seen during this time was how the Prime Minister simultaneously plotted in secret to exploit the 2013 proposed law to implement mass surveillance at exactly the same time that he persuaded the public to support it by explicitly insisting that it would not allow mass surveillance.
But overtly reneging on a public pledge to resign is a new level of political scandal. Key was just re-elected for his third term, and like any political official who stays in power too long, he has the despot’s mentality that he’s beyond all ethical norms and constraints. But by the admission of his own former GCSB chief, he has now been caught red-handed doing exactly that which he swore to the public would cause him to resign if it were proven. If nothing else, the New Zealand media ought to treat that public deception from its highest political official with the level of seriousness it deserves.
Photo: Mark Mitchell/AP
[quote name=”Greenwald”]”…If nothing else, the New Zealand media ought to treat that public deception from its highest political official with the level of seriousness it deserves.”[/quote]#
I’ll say. And the level of seriousness that it of course deserves is pressuring him to keep his promise and resign, immediately. These Orwellian despotic “leaders” need to be held accountable wherever we might have any chance of holding them accountable, even on the other side of the world; for, if New Zealand Prime Minister Key is forced to resign in disgrace, which he most certainly should be, that would, for as long as it hadn’t yet been slid down the memory hole at least, perhaps lead to other Western “leaders” being more circumspect and to not make claims that are totally false and that could come back to bite them later. Because, obviously, they can’t keep all this stuff secret that they’ve absurdly taken for granted that they “could” keep, entirely, secret.
Let’s face it if we haven’t already, most of our Western “leaders” are nothing but a bunch of lying, despotic, tyrannical, mass-privacy-violating, mass-murdering sociopaths. They put on a good act, at least for as long as their lies and other illegal misdeeds are kept secret, but as soon as they and their perfidy are outed, they just dissemble some more; and, of course, avoid taking any responsibility for their crimes against their people and the world. They are panopticon dictators who should all be locked up.
Not surprises here. Typical of the the extreme right. This man is exactly the copy of Australian Tony Abbot.
Thank you for the informative blog post Mr. Greenwald. It’s good to see your concern for information security extend beyond USA’s boarders to New Zealand. Let’s hope it keeps expanding to other surveillance states such as Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Papua New Guinea, India, Mongolia, Georgia, Belarus and the Baltic states. You are truly a patriotic world citizen.
My Demonology is rusty. What sort of Demon has Five Eyes and a Forked Tongue?
Thank you for this article. The surveillance problem is so bad that I was accused of copyright infringement after singing a song written by my friend at home with my children. It is unbelievably bad. I was also accused of defaming my former colleague because the start of a novel on my hard drive at home portrayed someone a bit like him, even though my work was incomplete and I had never even tried to publish it. Big ups to you guys.
What does Samoa understand that Wikimedia doesn’t?
– Samoan PM – “Samoa doesn’t have anything to hide. Our daily lives are an open book. We follow good governance principles of transparency and accountability.
“As the leader of this country, I maintain frank and open lines of communication with all our diplomatic connections. Where there are concerns and problems, I will voice them and when there are benefits or positive outcomes, I will be equally as vocal.”
Tuilaepa acknowledged that the matters of a small island nation in the Pacific probably had no significant value to the world’s top leaders – including the United States.
“We are not a security risk to any small island nearby and I’m sure the phone conversations by an old matai (chief) and his son in New Zealand for a taulaga (money) envelope will not be of interest to the FBI of the great USA.”
nzherald.co.nz
– Wikimedia – “Mass surveillance on the Internet’s backbone is a threat to intellectual freedom and a spirit of inquiry, two of the driving forces behind Wikimedia, it said. Wikipedia often relies on anonymous contributions from people around the world who contribute to difficult and controversial topics, such as the article on the Tiananmen Square protests or a topic on gay rights in Uganda.
Surveillance though might be used to reveal sensitive information about those contributors, creating in turn a chilling effect that deters participation and in extreme instances identifies individual users. Pervasive surveillance undermines the freedoms upon which Wikipedia and its communities are founded, it said.”
http://www.computerworld.co.nz/article/569969/wikimedia-sues-nsa-stop-it-from-spying-its-users/
So there you have it, be small, powerless, and don’t contribute information on anti-government protests or gay rights and you should escape the notice of your overlords!!!
It now seems that New Zealand has succumbed to the dreaded Clinton disease of untruthfulness that has spread from the U.S. And once again, the apathetic public doesn’t seem to care.
Bill & Hillary Clinton have really left their legacy. Now any dirtbag can become president. And only TI readers seem to care.
Thanks for the update Glen. We can’t tell our dirtbags without a scorecard.
maybe he needs to say a white lie just so the stupid minority of New Zealand doesn’t flip out at the fact that they are monitoring everyone for the safety of everyone since terrorists are a major threat, don’t get upset cause the government are spying on your sexting to your gf , I don’t care if they spy on me I have nothing to hide
This article raises quite succinctly the issue of John Key reneging on his promise to resign if the GCSB were shown to have undertaken mass surveillance. This is not the first promise that he has broken. The man has so many broken promises in his past that there is a reddit devoted to them;
http://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/29406c/the_big_list_of_john_keys_lies
Once the citizens of the world start understanding the scale of the problem, they then need to determine the best course of action to oppose it. It is my belief that trying to hold them legally accountable is a pointless exercise, it has been shown by the actions of U.S officials from the NSA that they will lie, prevaricate and obfuscate. The will twist definitions with secret dictionaries to justify the unjustifiable. I say stop playing the game by their rules. Shift the goal posts. Don’t argue against mass surveillance on the grounds that it is illegal, argue against this behaviour by our governments on the philosophical grounds that it is immoral.
Well by the way l was in the debating chamber in the New Zealand Parliament today and l did hear Dr. Russel Normans question to the New Zealand Prime Minister. I was in Auckland when Kim Dot.com party did their big tell all when Glen Greenwald was there. When this same political party that Kim Dotcom was behind as well as some other members of parliament ahd their last meeting. This party of Kim Dotcom’s has dissapeared now. Its founder is broke. No reputable law firm wishes to touch him with a barge pole. He is a local embarressment. He even lied on his application to live here in New Zealand according to our media.
The only person that said anything of interest was Edward Snowden. But the problem is Edward Snowden and others can not back up their claims.
I also listen to the same Radio New Zealand media and have watched Citizen 4.
This is what happens when 5-% of your DNA comes from sheep.
Nasty! But DAMN…I like it!
RULES for STUPID PEOPLE:
1) If a politician is speaking – they’re lying.
2) When it comes to spying and surveillance, if you can imagine it — they’re already doing it. I PROMISE you that.
Eg: http://www.wired.com/2012/03/petraeus-tv-remote/
3) If a politician promises “Change” expect that he will deliver just that — and THAT will be so far much worse then where we started.
4) If a politician says he cares about you – it’s the EXACT opposite. What he ONLY cares about is your vote so they can stay in office royally fucking us in the arse.
5) If you even remotely think that we can stop the trajectory of total 1984 owellian control.. no matter we do, no matter how the masses rise up (if they could ever think for themselves and unplug FB long enough to care) it won’t even slow things down at this point. NOT. ONE. LITTLE. ITTY. BITTY. BIT.Greed and power has turned the corner and there is no going back.
And if you think it can “or YES WE CAN — then please. PULEASSSEE! Just shoot yourself now. You obviously haven’t graduated grade school, nor have a lick of common sense.
I’m going to shoot myself now. But stop laughing! You’re next!
FYI, something on this page downloads Brightcove unto my computer every time I click on it. Not to whine, but it’s irritating.
As to the subject of this article – I dunno, I don’t get it, but Kiwi’s seem to love this guy. Hey, Russian’s love Putin if polls are to be believed. Perhaps it’s human instinct to get behind a seemingly tough badass. I’d be surprised if this dings his general popularity, though.
Key is a pussy …
He does not speak for me!
“like any political official who stays in power too long, he has the despot’s mentality that he’s beyond all ethical norms and constraints” — this might be an over-generalisation. Politicians need not, by definition, be corrupt. Though Key certainly is.
Who doesn’t lie about surveillance? Everyone without exception does. There are many who even do it under oath, and nothing happens to them. So why should this hapless Keys resign? He may as well tell you to keys his posterior.
You guys had all the papers when Keys first announced his challenge to proven his surveillance. That was the time to publish these current set of exposures, not a year later. Maybe then the result of the vote would have been different. But now that it’s passed Keys can afford to paste his nameplate on his back and ask you to do what it says.
It’s not as if the surveillance is of any use to Keys, he is just following orders from overseas. And probably he is getting well compensated for his efforts.
Because he vehemently declared he would.
Granted he did, but spying itself is an art of deception. What use would have been that spying were he to declare its existence? He was only doing his job by asserting it did not exist.
In passing, I think the present expose would have had a lot more impact if it was published immediately when Keys challenged it. Publishing it right now has diluted the impact. The world now has more pressing events to ponder about surrounding the slashing activities of Md J John and his friends.
Sure, and if the NZ electorate is fine w/ the PM lying to them about spying on them, hey, that’s up to them. If they want a Head Spy as PM — who lies — their choice.
Myself, I’d be lobbying for his promised resignation.
I’m in the NZ electorate and I’m fine with it – I think the rest of the NZ electorate spoke last year and made it clear they don’t have a lot of time for Greenwald either.
To think we have spy services that spy. Who knew.
New Zealand was a penal colony not long ago. Not sure if you need to recalibrate your expectations ;-)
@General Hercules – where did you go to school? I would ask for my money back, if I were you.
New Zealand was never a penal colony.
You’re confusing it with the other, slightly-larger, rugby-playing island off the coast of New Zealand. (Well, to be clear: Australia plays rugby up to a point… the point just short of being able to beat the All Blacks)
Odd that nobody has mentioned John Key’s adherence to an Iron Age sexual-mutilation cult, or his tenure at the Other Great Satan – Goldman Sachs. That anyone expects honesty from a piece of shit like Key is alarming in its naivete, but it would be fantastic if he was forced to sling his hook and fuck off to some dark corner.
@General Hercules – where did you go to school? I would ask for my money back, if I were you.
New Zealand was never a penal colony.
You’re confusing it with the other, slightly-larger, rugby-playing island off the coast of New Zealand. (Well, to be clear: Australia plays rugby up to a point… the point just short of being able to beat the All Blacks)
Odd that nobody has mentioned John Key’s adherence to an Iron Age sexual-mutilation cult, or his tenure at the Other Great Satan – Goldman Sachs. That anyone expects honesty from a piece of shit like Key is alarming in its naivete, but it would be fantastic if he was forced to sling his hook and fück off to some dark corner.
Right on general! Before Snowden and Greenwald came on the scene no one knew abut spying. America’s enemies would soon forget if only they and their ilk would shut up.
quote”Right on general! Before Snowden and Greenwald came on the scene no one knew abut spying. America’s enemies would soon forget if only they and their ilk would shut up.”
Spoken like a true milpropaganda sockpuppet……..
http://ronaldthomaswest.com/2014/04/18/military-sock-puppets-nsa-trolls-cia-shills/
btw, clean up your slime trail schmuck..it stinks to high heaven.
FJKey
Right honorable mr key, banker by origin, in his mind, formed by years of indoctrination and repetition until success do we depart into the land of abstract thought, a template of operations, one that dictates his priorities, and within those priorities the governance of an economic consortium and routes for trade among such concern, so you wonder why the eyes all over the pacific? With the approach of the trans pacific partnership, who wouldn’t want eyes on the territories? And that little warm patch of urine in his pocket belongs to uncle sam, granted its only a small piece of the pie, but insecure when left unchecked. Wars become economic not territorial when you realize you inherit a liability with the latter and an asset with the former, and to leave it undone leaves the door open, its all or nothing in a world where trivialities can be taken and turned on you, a secure blanket of operations wrapping up a large amount of water with some islands of different nationalities claim. Mr key burned by the knowledge of the network at about the start of his second term, crooked as they come, liar to boot, and so it is that one like that can only be in position if they maintain momentum, if the voters were able to stop to take a breath, their minds would come about to another conclusion, so ahead of the game he must stay, and with betrays the knowledge that a game he must have, a reckless indulgence in the construct of his own narcissism would fall well short of the term already served, his background and golfing buddy telling simply that we knew it all along. Will he resign? I think not, in times of scarcity with the breaking of the neoliberal illusion, the dogs begin to consume the other dogs, so you just might want a dog where he might be handy, at the apex of of the jewel, a little resort island where the big money holders go when the weather looks bad in the markets and the peasants look angry. Bumps in the road, he’s the only man I seen yet that can consistently give an absolute zero amount of information at a press conference and still seem to get a favourable audience every time. His public are a mere inconvenience to him, their only requirement that they hold him in place, even by hate will do.
Leaked goverment crimes generally only result in prosecution of the leakers, and legalization/obsfucation of crimes. This demonstrates that corporate/military capture of the world’s “Democracies” has been achieved. Under such conditions it is only natural for officials of the shadow government, which interface with the public, to become brazen.
Keys was just getting his April Fool’s joke in early because he was going to be busy that day.
O/T (but in Glenn’s ambit)
The Atlantic’s book reading club has chosen for March Ali Abunimah’s The Battle for Justice in Palestine. This is a factually dense, extremely well-written — and calm — exposition of the Palestinian plight. Certainly Zionist crimes and Israel’s depredations are explored, but the middle also includes extended discussion of the corrupt Palestinian Authority’s neo-liberal, crony capitalist abuses — in partnership with many Israelis.
That economic stuff isn’t really my strong suit, but the sections before and after, about foul human rights abuses, the problems with a 2-state solution, and the increasing success of Palestinian activists on American campuses, is all well-detailed in this longish tome. (It was this book that really pushed me out of the belief that a 2-state solution was ever going to happen.)
I bought my ebook copy at Amazon months ago, and you can, too. Or, Abunimah’s publisher, Haymarket books, is offering a 30% discount on the work by using the code “JUSTICE” here: http://www.haymarketbooks.org/pb/The-Battle-for-Justice-in-Palestine
At the end of March, Abunimah will participate with readers in a discussion of his work.
As might be imagined, this was a controversial event for the Atlantic to host, but Justice won an online vote from among other non-fiction works. And they are sticking to it, and doing so without apology. On Twitter follow @1book140 to stay apprised of events. Hashtag for this reading is: #1book140
Happy reading, and hope to see you there.
Link to Atlantic post on event: http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2015/03/1book140s-march-read-the-battle-for-justice-in-palestine/387232/
I’ve been wondering when the NZ Green Party would step up and start attacking this corruption, they have the third largest representation in the New Zealand gov’t. Glad to see I wasn’t mistaken in my beliefs, and that they’re now on the attack. I hope they send a message to our own corrupt hacks here in the US, and take down Key and the other corrupt hacks in NZ’s next election. Or better yet, if they have such a procedure, impeach or have a vote of no confidence against Key.
And we’ve got to stop wallowing in pity and defeatism here in the US and start voting in some Greens into Congress here as well, and/or some Libertarians if you’re more economically right-wing. Both parties are against this illegal mass spying.
“they have the third largest representation in the New Zealand gov’t”
They are not in Government. Never have been. They are in parliament.
Big difference.
No, no no . . . you silly people. John Key said he would resign if there was “mass surveillance” – what the GCSB is doing is “mass collection”. Now, go back to sleep. Its all okay. Daddy State is looking after everything, no need for you to worry your little heads about what the grown ups are doing.
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL1503/S00076/john-key-on-mass-collection-versus-mass-surveillance.htm
From the article: “If nothing else, the New Zealand media ought to treat that public deception from its highest political official with the level of seriousness it deserves.”
It would appear some of them are. They are reminding the politician and the public that a promise was made and they are asking if that promise will be kept. They are forcing the politician to say sentences that essentially mean “I lied back then and I am going to renege on my promise.” It is not the news reporter’s place to call for punishment or to demand that the public call for punishment. That is the role of columnists and citizen groups. We’ll see if they rise to the occasion.
I should clarify. It is not the role of Australian news reporters to call for punishment. It is their role to report the deception in very clear terms, as they seem to be doing. Glenn Greenwald is free to call for punishment.
Can’t we pass a law making it mandatory for these lying politicos to wear a sign expressly stating that. Any elected official caught in a lie would have two choices, resign or wear a sign hung around his neck which had in bold letters able to be read by a person of normal vision at 50 yards saying “BE WARNED. I AM A LYING POS!
Personally…I don’t like the either/or option.
They should have to do both for the remainder of their mortal lives.
How about a scarlet L?
Surprised this wasn’t mentioned–
“Ian Fletcher, the country’s top spymaster, has unexpectedly resigned.”
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/64898704/New-Zealand-spy-chief-Ian-Fletcher-quits
Thx for that update!
Good catch. Thanks.
This, from your story:
I wonder what that betokens. “For family reasons” could mean:
1. for family reasons indeed
2. it’s a convenient, if unconvincing, excuse, sort of like Gen. Petraeus and his mistress, which is also a “family reason”
3. something to do with his being a “former schoolmate” of the PM, as the story mentions
4. “nice family you got; shame if something happens to them”
from link “Privacy lawyer at Chen Palmer, James Dunne, said it was not illegal for the GCSB to incidentally pick up New Zealanders’ communications in the context of overseas spying.
“Having got that information there are some real controls on what the GCSB can do with it.
“But one of the things [GCSB] is allowed to do with it is pass that information on to a public authority overseas.”
from the Intercept
“the role played by GCSB’s Waihopai base in aiding NSA’s mass surveillance activities in the Pacific ”
If I stole a mailbox full of letters, didn’t open anything but gave the bundle to the NSA, would I be guilty of surveilling the authors of the letters? I’d be a disingenuous shit for doing such a thing but I bet I could safely assert that I didn’t surveil (to observe closely the activities of (a person or group)) because the NSA is doing it.
Always a good reason: From his viewpoint, everyone, except his handlers, is a potential terrorist.
My, my, the statements read like a mashup of “Yes, Minister” and the UK version of “House of Cards.”
Thank God for Snowden
It’s hard to prove who holds the highest command over all these agencies, but he is a liar and a father of lies.
Governments engaged in this level of duplicity can’t be trusted to count the votes. Time for a Kiwi Spring (yes, in fall).
Seems a majority of the sheeple of New Zealand are just as indifferent and cud chewing as a majority of the American people.
My big fear has always been that with the drip drip drip of these stories bringing to light the scope and scale of the international surveillance state, that the majority (unaffected directly as they are at least with respect to lack of direct negative consequences to their lives) would simply care less. And that’s precisely how such practices would become “normalized”. So long as mass surveillance only affects a relatively small minority of citizens directly with negative consequences, everybody will jump to the immediate conclusion(s) that: a) that person must have done something wrong in the first instance, b) a few “mistakes” even to the innocent are better than even the possibility of insecurity or the perception of public or personal safety (although neither is statistically likely in terms of risk of victimization by crime/terrorism by comparison to being struck by lightning, hitting a deer with your car, slipping in the bathtub, being the victim of police gun violence while unnarmed in America or by civilian accidental discharges of firearms . . . ), and that c) people accept the premise that their perceived “safety” trumps their “personal liberty” or “right to privacy” 6 days a week and twice on Sunday. Because that’s what the vast majority of human beings crave–the perception of safety and security. Not saying that craving a sense of safety and security in our brief lives is wrong, only that d) mass surveillance doesn’t really in any statistical or meaningful sense improve anyone’s security or safety, and that e) it is ridiculously cost ineffective and destructive of liberty and privacy without any meaningful demonstrable benefits redounding to the vast majority of human beings.
Kinda sad to recognize how incapable a majority of human beings are of understanding d) and e) and basic concepts of “risk analysis”.
“or the perception of a threat to public or personal safety” . . . sorry for the typo/omission.
Luckily, governments are very good at recognizing threats to themselves. So they will design programs to eliminate those risks, and as a fringe benefit, will be able to recognize and counteract threats to the general populace as well. Of course, once they have mitigated threats to themselves, their concern for the welfare of the general populace may diminish somewhat – especially if the general populace turns out to be one of the threats to their own welfare.
It’s a risk. But John Key has an honest face, so I think it’s a small one.
Well I’d think a guy who was summarily executed and hung upside down for public viewing at a service station would know a little sumpin’ sumpin’ about the implications of a fascist global mass surveillance state. So I’ll take it that you know of what you speak. Unfortunately it doesn’t end so well for the fascists because eventually their grip becomes too tight and the little people get pissed, unite at least temporarily, and the streets start running red with blood. Be a nicer world if we could avoid that seemingly inexorable path to disharmony.
It just goes in cycles which is disheartening. As long as war is as profitable as it is, the cycle will continue.
I think you’re generalizing from a particular case. The lesson is to choose your wars carefully – not that overreach is inevitable. It’s not easy, I’ll admit – human nature tends towards over-optimism.
Indeed, Duce, although the less-than-stellar performance in Spain should have suggested that Italy might want to sit out WWII — the Commando Supremo in fact said so. For that matter, Italy had the chance to sit out WWI, and didn’t, and paid dearly for it.
Of course, over-reach is something the US public and military seem prone to. We had David Petraeus and William Westmoreland — but at least we didn’t have Luigi Cadorna or Annibale (“barba electrica”) Bergonzoli. At least, not yet.
You say benito, I say benitoe.
*If history is any guide double r, the Kiwis will take their cue from Brennen, Hayden and other high ranking U.S. officials and continue to split hairs over the difference between ‘collection’ (esp. ‘full-take indiscriminate’ collection) and ‘surveillance’. They will tie logic into boatswains knots describing how ‘indiscriminate collection’ is not surveillance.
And even how collection is not collection. In the NSA dictionary, it’s not collection until somebody goes to look at it. Just sweeping information up in a net and storing it is not collection. That’s how the NSA justifies saying at all hearings that they are not collecting.
@Ill Duce —
But if rrheard’s point (d) is accepted, why should mass surveillance be effective at eliminating risks to the government? If it doesn’t work for “improv[ing] anyone’s security or safety”, why would it work for the security and safety of the government? (Maybe you don’t agree with rrheard on this point? Maybe you believe that anyone betting against technology is “on the wrong side of history”?)
A small group can act covertly. So mass surveillance is unlikely to detect a plot like the Boston bombing.
But to threaten a government requires mass action. Larger groups need to communicate on a wider scale, will be detected, and can be monitored.
I accept that point (d) is valid concerning individual acts of violence. But mass surveillance is very useful for monitoring and mitigating threats posed by large groups, such as activists.
So I don’t concede there is any inconsistency in my position – or at least, no more than usual.
That’s good enough, sir.
Ah, but Duce, even large groups may be difficult to monitor. Italian intelligence seemed unable to get a handle on:
1. Republican Spanish forces facing the army, esp. at the Battle of Guadalajara in 1937
2. The British 8th Army in North Africa
3. The Royal Navy. That Pearl Harbor-type attack on the fleet at Taranto was kind of destructive.
4. The invasion of Sicily
5. The coup by the general staff and the Fascist party leadership in 1943
Of course, US intelligence is better. They did see the collapse of the Soviet Union coming, didn’t they? No?
Test –
Test –
I agree, and that’s why I was disappointing that Snowden wasn’t able to back up his assertions that he could tap anyone, including the president. If he had produced actual recordings–especially if such recording had anything embarrassing or confidential on them, the impact would have been much more dramatic.
I’m sorry, you forgot to mention how it is benefiting corporations. I would also add “while unnarmed (or armed, in most cases) in America”
rrheard- I’m going to pick a nit that seems to pop up frequently…not specifically with you, but generally…. not really off topic, but off on a bit of a tangent.
Namely, the “crime/terrorism” pairing.
This surveillance was justified in the US based on the threat of terrorism… which is a crime no doubt, but a specific one.
More and more, we are seeing other crimes lumped into the “acceptable justification” category… and not really national security threatening type crimes… and NEVER white collar crimes.
Probable cause and warrants signed off by judges used to be required for such things, so the casual use of those two words interchangeably, even in combination, bothers me more in some ways than just the weak terror risk justification.
This crime/terrorism pairing lowers the bar from “unaffected directly” from mass surveillance.
I guess I’m asking if pairing those words together is intentional?
Those still trying to justify mass surveillance often use that pairing of words, yet your “destructive and ineffective” language suggests you are not trying to aid their effort.
why not prosecute him for treason? Why isnt it treason when a national leader lies to the public as a function of his office? Lying to the people in the role of an elected office holder is taking the side of the enemy against the country.
Just say that if the politician is not for the people, then by default he is against the people. Outright lies should be prosecuted, the same way the goverment prosecutes us for lying to government agents.
I wonder how much embarrassing/compromising information GCSB has on PM Key.
Isn’t that how all these spook gangs work?
“Isn’t that how all these spook gangs work?”
It’s how the whole of political life works, Mike5000: nobody gets to advance in ‘public life’ – for any political party whatsoever – unless they are already thoroughly compromised. That makes them controllable.
This is where people get bamboozled by the Acton dictum (“Power tends to corrupt [snip]”). In fact, power attracts the already-corrupt.
Key needs to consult with his US handlers. It is important to consistently deny any form of ‘mass surveillance’, since post-Orwell, the term has acquired a negative connotation. When pressed, you can admit to ‘bulk collection’. Of course the collected data can be scanned or queried for identifiers that are associated with specific risks. And the identifiers can be as broad as necessary – or broader. But as long as someone isn’t personally listening to your phone call in real time, no mass surveillance is taking place.
It is unfortunate that, thanks to Orwell, governments are forced to engage in doublespeak.
I was thinking money and corruption forced most of that doublespeak stuff, Duce, but I do indeed see why member-Eyes of The State dislike Orwell.
I can almost envision an open hotline to the NSA from Key’s office.
‘What do I say now? How should I spin this? Lie? Go Rumsfeld and speak in tongues?’ Key is no kiwi, he is a slimy weasel.
Maybe, Duce, there was a code embedded in the program’s title. You know: Ex-Key Score. Get it?
I’m wondering where they get these people, specimens like John Keys, the Australians (Tony Abbott and his prior Julia Gillard), the Canadians (Stephen Harper), the British (David Cameron and his distant prior Tony Blair)? Its like they mint them or produce them in a factory. Groomed for the job at an early age, with complete and dutiful support for US hegemony. The German situation is the most shocking. There is no sovereignty in any of these countries. How they could perform mass surveillance on their own citizens and dutifully turn it over in bulk to a foreign country is beyond me. And each of these elected officials, supposedly born and bread in their own land, go along with this without question. And when exposed it continues.
“There is no sovereignty in any of these countries.”
While we still cling to the idea of sovereign nations, the ruling elite do as they please. At least we still have the illusion of being a democratic republic but for how long can that illusion be maintained?
Before becoming New Zealand’s Prime Minister, John Key worked for Bank of America (Merrill Lynch) and then in 1999 he was appointed a member of the Foreign Exchange Committee of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York. He doesn’t represent the interests of New Zealanders. He is corporate droog yes man “part of the club” and answerable to his corporate masters. Nation state western democracies are a fiction.
BREAKING: A politician lied!
(yawn)
BREAKING: An idiot commented. (yawn)
You are so worldly. You’ve seen it all. You’re very wise to the ways of the world. Nobody can keep you entertained with boring stories about systematic lying by the most powerful officials to their populations. You’re much too knowledgeable and world-weary to be kept engaged by such trivialities.
Bill Hicks finds this unsurprising, and it bores him, and therefore it shouldn’t be reported.
Obviously Bill Hicks is an idiot with a grandiose ego…also known as a giant ass.
As though somebody would actually be interested in reading that nonconstructive and negative opinion.
Why comment at all?
For what reason (other than to degrade the journalist or dissuade future readers) would these self-appointed intellectual giants need to make these asinine comments?
It appears that you have quite a few of these trollish commenters at The Intercept and that is a pity because it serves as a comment deterrent (no desire to engage in potentially lengthy meaningless discourse) as well as a source of irritation to the more genuine readers.
Glad to see that you are taking matters into your own hands.
Glenn, I guess I’m not the only one:
———————–
Last week the New Zealand media reported that documents provided by the United States whistleblower Edward Snowden show New Zealand’s spy agency, the GCSB, is intercepting all communications between about two dozen countries in the region, including Fiji.
The information is then passed on to the United States.
Mr Tarai says the reports are unsurprising and have more implications for diplomats and officials.
“There’s not much of a reaction to it at all. When you have various other issues that are battling the people, human rights abuses in West Papua, unemployment rates in Fiji, having to walk into Parliamentary democracy after such a long time, those issues outweight that much more.”
http://www.radionz.co.nz/international/pacific-news/268231/indifference-to-reports-of-mass-spying-in-fiji
———————–
New Zealanders are so worldly. They’ve seen it all. They’re very wise to the ways of the world. Nobody can keep New Zealanders entertained with boring stories about systematic lying by the most powerful officials to their populations. They’re much too knowledgeable and world-weary to be kept engaged by such trivialities.
In the end, I guess only the people who’s pockets are continually lined with this dead story (via books, movie deals, and $25k speaking fees) are the really hip people in the room. Not like those jaded islanders, the poor schnooks,
Next time you want to lay on the snark, try doing some basic research to see what the reaction on the ground is. Not on your Twitter feed full of white liberal intellectuals and Anonymous trolls. Might help.
Sorry Spanky, but Mr. Tarai is not a New Zealander. He hails from Fiji and figures his own govt spies in him so much it lacks standing to complain to New Zealand.
Also, his point wasn’t about politicians lying.
So, your comment to Glenn was both factually wrong, and logically defective, but otherwise quite brilliant! However, next time you want to lay on the snark, try doing some basic research to see what the reaction on the ground is.
Bill Hicks used to be one of the best comedians around. Then he died. Zombie Bill Hicks isn’t funny, factually wrong and logically defective. Must be a result of all that decomposition.
But if you took the bones out, it wouldn’t be crunchy, now would it?
Yes, I’ve been offended by this thing’s misappropriation of Bill Hicks’ name ever since it showed up here. Hicks was super smart, and wouldn’t have mistaken a Fijian activist for a New Zealander or embarrassed himself with snark about NZ unwittingly based on a quote from a Fijian.
Speculating as to the race of the people who participate in Glenn Greenwald’s Twitter feed is pretty vulgar, mate. Especially when you imply that their race discredits the validity of what they might be saying.
Glenn are you still sore you couldn’t influence the NZ election?