The French Interior Ministry on Monday ordered that five websites be blocked on the grounds that they promote or advocate terrorism. “I do not want to see sites that could lead people to take up arms on the Internet,” proclaimed Interior Minister Bernard Cazeneuve.
When the block functions properly, visitors to those banned sites, rather than accessing the content of the sites they chose to visit, will be automatically redirected to the Interior Ministry website. There, they will be greeted by a graphic of a large red hand, and text informing them that they were attempting to access a site that causes or promotes terrorism: “you are being redirected to this official website since your computer was about to connect with a page that provokes terrorist acts or condones terrorism publicly.”No judge reviews the Interior Ministry’s decisions. The minister first requests that the website owner voluntarily remove the content he deems transgressive; upon disobedience, the minister unilaterally issues the order to Internet service providers for the sites to be blocked. This censorship power is vested pursuant to a law recently enacted in France empowering the interior minister to block websites.
Forcibly taking down websites deemed to be supportive of terrorism, or criminalizing speech deemed to “advocate” terrorism, is a major trend in both Europe and the West generally. Last month in Brussels, the European Union’s counter-terrorism coordinator issued a memo proclaiming that “Europe is facing an unprecedented, diverse and serious terrorist threat,” and argued that increased state control over the Internet is crucial to combating it.
The memo noted that “the EU and its Member States have developed several initiatives related to countering radicalisation and terrorism on the Internet,” yet argued that more must be done. It argued that the focus should be on “working with the main players in the Internet industry [a]s the best way to limit the circulation of terrorist material online.” It specifically hailed the tactics of the U.K. Counter-Terrorism Internet Referral Unit (CTIRU), which has succeeded in causing the removal of large amounts of material it deems “extremist”:
In addition to recommending the dissemination of “counter-narratives” by governments, the memo also urged EU member states to “examine the legal and technical possibilities to remove illegal content.”
Exploiting terrorism fears to control speech has been a common practice in the West since 9/11, but it is becoming increasingly popular even in countries that have experienced exceedingly few attacks. A new extremist bill advocated by the right-wing Harper government in Canada (also supported by Liberal Party leader Justin Trudeau even as he recognizes its dangers) would create new crimes for “advocating terrorism”; specifically: “every person who, by communicating statements, knowingly advocates or promotes the commission of terrorism offences in general” would be a guilty and can be sent to prison for five years for each offense.
In justifying the new proposal, the Canadian government admits that “under the current criminal law, it is [already] a crime to counsel or actively encourage others to commit a specific terrorism offence.” This new proposal is about criminalizing ideas and opinions. In the government’s words, it “prohibits the intentional advocacy or promotion of terrorism, knowing or reckless as to whether it would result in terrorism.”
There can be no doubt that such new criminal laws are specifically intended to ban ideas these governments dislike. The Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives lays out numerous ways that the law will allow the government to imprison people for the expression of political ideas:
The new offence will bring within its ambit all kinds of innocent speech, some of which no doubt lies at the core of freedom of expression values that the Charter was meant to protect. . . .Even if the government exercises restraint in laying charges and arresting people, the result is an inevitable chill on speech. Students will think twice before posting an article on Facebook questioning military action against insurgents overseas. Journalists will be wary of questioning government decisions to add groups to Canada’s list of terrorist entities.
If someone argues that continuous Western violence and interference in the Muslim world for decades justifies violence being returned to the West, or even advocates that governments arm various insurgents considered by some to be “terrorists,” such speech could easily be viewed as constituting a crime.
To calm concerns, Canadian authorities point out that “the proposed new offence is similar to one recently enacted by Australia, that prohibits advocating a terrorist act or the commission of a terrorism offence-all while being reckless as to whether another person will engage in this kind of activity.” Indeed, Australia enacted a new law late last year that indisputably targets political speech and ideas, as well as criminalizing journalism considered threatening by the government.
Punishing people for their speech deemed extremist or dangerous has been a vibrant practice in both the U.K. and U.S. for some time now, as I detailed (coincidentally) just a couple days before free speech marches broke out in the West after the Charlie Hebdo attacks. Those criminalization-of-speech attacks overwhelmingly target Muslims, and have resulted in the punishment of such classic free speech activities as posting anti-war commentary on Facebook, tweeting links to “extremist” videos, translating and posting “radicalizing” videos to the Internet, writing scholarly articles in defense of Palestinian groups and expressing harsh criticism of Israel, and even including a Hezbollah channel in a cable package.
In this regard, having the French Interior Ministry now unilaterally block websites is the next logical step in this growing attack on free speech by Western governments in the name of stopping extremism and radicalism. The large red hand of state censors over the Internet is a perfect symbol of the prevailing mindset in the West, whose fondness for self-righteously condemning China and Iran for their attempts to control Internet content is bottomless. The ironic mass arrests by France of people who “glorify” terrorism — carried out in the immediate aftermath of the Paris “free speech” rally — largely targeted that country’s Muslims.
Let’s briefly note the futility of the French efforts: in the way that censorship efforts fail generally and are particularly doomed to failure in the Internet era. I’m currently in Germany, just a few miles from the French border, and am able to access all the banned sites. Reports suggest that the French government failed miserably on technical grounds to block the targeted sites, as at least four of the five are still fully available even in France. The owner of the hosting company for one of the banned sites, islamic-news.info, insisted on Twitter yesterday that he was never contacted with any request to remove offending material.
Beyond the technical issues, trying to legislate ideas out of existence is a fool’s game: those sufficiently determined will always find ways to make themselves heard. Indeed, as U.S. pop star Barbra Streisand famously learned, attempts to suppress ideas usually result in the greatest publicity possible for their advocates and/or elevate them by turning fringe ideas into martyrs for free speech (I have zero doubt that all five of the targeted sites enjoyed among their highest traffic dates ever today as a result of the French targeting).
But the comical futility of these efforts is exceeded by their profound dangers. Who wants governments to be able to unilaterally block websites? Isn’t the exercise of this website-blocking power what has long been cited as reasons we should regard the Bad Countries — such as China and Iran — as tyrannies (which also usually cite “counterterrorism” to justify their censorship efforts)?
As those and countless other examples prove, the concepts of “extremism” and “radicalizing” (like “terrorism” itself) are incredibly vague and elastic, and in the hands of those who wield power, almost always expand far beyond what you think it should mean (plotting to blow up innocent people) to mean: anyone who disseminates ideas that are threatening to the exercise of our power. That’s why powers justified in the name of combating “radicalism” or “extremism” are invariably — not often or usually, but invariably — applied to activists, dissidents, protesters and those who challenge prevailing orthodoxies and power centers.
My arguments for distrusting governments to exercise powers of censorship are set forth here (in the context of a prior attempt by a different French minister to control the content of Twitter). In sum, far more damage has been inflicted historically by efforts to censor and criminalize political ideas than by the kind of “terrorism” these governments are invoking to justify these censorship powers.
And whatever else may be true, few things are more inimical to, or threatening of, Internet freedom than allowing functionaries inside governments to unilaterally block websites from functioning on the ground that the ideas those sites advocate are objectionable or “dangerous.” That’s every bit as true when the censors are in Paris, London, and Ottawa, and Washington as when they are in Tehran, Moscow or Beijing.


is the War on Terror manufactured to replace the War on Drugs? What will the next excuse be to erode our liberties?
greenwald: “Canadian authorities point out that “the proposed new offence is similar to one recently enacted by Australia, that prohibits advocating a terrorist…”
Begs the question: who are the terrorists? Canadian Minister: Chris Alexander Delivers a Troubling Speech on Ukraine:
“..in the view of our prime minister,…Yes, there is terrorism. Vladimir Putin is behaving like a terrorist. And he was taught by an organization, trained by an organization that specialized in training terrorists.”
RT is also dangerous:
“Dangerous ideology …comes to us through state-sponsored Russian channels which are preaching absolute poison…For Vladimir Putin’s media handlers to be calling the government of Ukraine, to be calling us Ukraine supporters, to be calling the whole western world Nazis is nothing less than reprehensible, and we must be taking the lead not only in fighting and in supporting those who are fighting, not only in making sure that Ukraine gets all the support it needs, but in denouncing one of the greatest perversions of history that I have seen in my lifetime, which comes to us courtesy of Russian language television. ”
Video and Transcript:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article41293.htm
Dangerous ideology:
“And now around Vladimir Putin, who wanted to put Humpty Dumpty back together, who didn’t accept that Ukraine could be an independent country within these borders. They are a menace to Russia, they are a menace to Ukraine, they are a menace to the whole world, ladies and gentlemen and we must speak out against this dangerous ideology”
I hope the rapture commences soon haha not
Craig whistles past the graveyard:
Yousef Munnayer in the NYT is as thrilled with the Israeli election results as every single (and these are many) BDS supporter I’ve seen at web sites and on Twitter:
You know who’s lamenting the election results, Craig? Liberal Zionists who just lost their every talking point. Their fairy tale fantasy of two harmonious states is at an end. Now the issue is: if you are moral you are for BDS; if not, you are with the fascists in Israel.
The election has clarified and simplified very nicely.
Craig splutters:
Leaving people dead and terrorism, eh? Wow, that sounds really bad on the part of the Palestinians! Why would people carry on like that against those nice, always peaceful, fair and reasonable Zionists?!
Huh. Now wait…I think I read somewhere…oh yeah! Moshe Dayan spoke these words in 1956 at the funeral for a Zionist soldier the Gazans had killed:
You Zionists have been stealing Arab land for your “settlements” for nearly a century, and the theft is now nearly entire.
And about terrorism? You Zionist showed the way on that, too. You employed terror to steal the land on which Israeli Jews live. Let’s consider the words and career of a man who would one day be elected as the Prime Minister of Israel, Yitzhak Shamir (my emphasis):
Zionists, Craig, entirely lack hands clean enough to squawk about Palestinians — the victims — killing people or resorting to terror.
It doesn’t answer the question of who started the second Intifada though Mona. This was after an offer of peace from the Israelis. Arafat decided to start the second Intifada to galvanize international opinion (a well used strategy in Gaza today). Fifty-five hundred people died (4500 Palestinian) According to Nabil Shaath, member of Fatah Central Committee):
“…….”[Arafat] saw that repeating the first Intifada in new forms, would bring the necessary popular, international, and Arab pressure upon Israel.”….”
In addition, the PLO proudly takes claim for the Intifada:
“……”Arafat didn’t lack fighters. In the Intifada, when Arafat wanted something, he asked his security services, 40% of which were either killed, Shahids (Martyrs) or prisoners. I want to… express all our love, honor and gratitude for the role of those brothers who died as Martyrs in the second Intifada from among Fatah and from among the Palestinian civilians and fighters, who defended our national rights. … [When the violence started] Hamas was still hiding, thinking that Arafat brought about the Intifada because he wanted to cover up the secret agreement that had been drawn up at Camp David. Those are Al-Zahar’s statements, by the way… The second Intifada – Hamas joined it late. We [the PLO and PA security services] are the ones who started it.”….” [PA TV (Fatah), Sept. 28, 2010]
This was in the year 2000 – not 1956 when Jordan controlled the future Palestinian state. There were no Jewish settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem was in the hands of the Palestinians. Jordan never tendered any thoughts toward creating a Palestinian state because they were sure of getting all of Palestine back from the Jews. After the 1967 war, Israel began settling the West Bank and East Jerusalem fully realizing that the Palestinians were in no mood for peace – again led by the terrorist Arafat. The Palestinians have always had a crisis of leadership leading the Palestinians down the path toward total destruction. They were given plenty of bad advice from regional Arab governments. Hamas continues the strategy of Arafat agitating Israel into confrontations for international support (political reasons).
After the Oslo Accords, there were radicals on both sides of the conflict which opposed a deal. None the less, Israel offered a Palestinian state with East Jerusalem as the capital. There would be an exchange of territory. The Palestinians chose war when more negotiations might have been successful. After Israel pulled out of Gaza leaving Hamas to run the affairs of Gazans and Hezbollah started the 2005 conflict, support for the Israeli left collapsed. Security is the top priority for Israelis – and it will remain that way for the foreseeable future – especially while Islamic extremism continues to rise.
“……. United Nations human rights investigators on Thursday leveled accusations of genocide and war crimes at the Islamic State, citing evidence that the extremist group’s fighters had sought to wipe out the Yazidi minority in Iraq…….investigators reported that the pattern of attacks against the Yazidis, a religious minority living mostly in northern Iraq, pointed to the intention of the Islamic State, also known as ISIS or ISIL, “to destroy the Yazidi as a group.”………Hanny Megally, a senior United Nations rights official, told reporters in Geneva that “all the information points in that direction.”……….”
Thanks Mona.
Lesssee now, the Zionists ethnically cleanse hundreds of thousands of Palestinians, shoveling them into tiny enclaves on the WB and Gaza, and when the victims seem recalcitrant, why, the Zionists steal more land!
There certainly has been a lot of corrupt Palestinian leadership. In the last decade, the PA has gotten a lot of its members rich, making deals to build, e.g., luxury hotels in the West Bank in deals involving Israeli, Palestinians and Gulf State wealth. The PA’s turning to a “normalized” occupation transfers the WB to Israel through that state;s “economic peace.”
Bo one in their right mind thinks Israel is ever going to give up these increasingly high-end, developed proeprties. And the Palestinians making fortunes are singularly unconcerned.
So, yes, there is a crisis of leadership for the long-suffering Palestinians.
Mona
“……Lesssee now, the Zionists ethnically cleanse hundreds of thousands of Palestinians, shoveling them into tiny enclaves on the WB and Gaza, and when the victims seem recalcitrant, why, the Zionists steal more land!……”
We are really going back in history now. Lessee now, the UN proposed two states for two peoples in 1947. Israelis accept the borders proposed by the UN. The Palestinians (taking their cue from the Arab governments) resist and reject the proposal. From the end of 1947 until Israel declared statehood, the Jews were under attack from the Palestinian Arabs and Arab militias in Palestine. Arab states threatened to attack the Jews if they declared statehood. As the Arabs had expressed clearly at the UN (1947), they would oppose the creation of a Jewish state.
According to Bennie Morris (“1948: A History of the First Arab-Israeli War”):
“……But the Haganah had little choice. With the Arab world loudly threatening and seemingly mobilizing for invasion, the Yishuv’s political and military leaders understood that they would first have to crush the Palestinian militias in the main towns and along the main roads and the countries borders if they were to stand a chance beating off the invading armies. And there was an ineluctable time frame. The Palestinians would have to be defeated in the six weeks remaining before the British departure, scheduled for 15 May……..”
So the threat of the coming war with the Arab armies led to expelling the Palestinians. This was fully four months after the UN proposal. Ethnic cleansing took place in preparation for the Arab invasion – a military decision.
you couldn’t list the number of websites that censor comments… error please try again later.. comments are closed… or your identification is invalid……
TRUTH is the fastest way to be censored
Online recruitment to terrorist groups has grown exponentially, and this was predicted over a decade ago by intelligence analysts. I wrote a piece about how to ID people who adopt radical Islam and would like to share it here. Many of the observations involve social media and website, so I want govt.’s to crack down on internet recruitment.
http://www.examiner.com/article/home-grown-terrorists-13-tell-tale-signs-if-one-lives-near-you
Like a beef salesman at a vegetarian convention…
Let’s hope a little exposure rubs off.
Not sure what’s worse… missing the point of the article, fostering paranoia, or describing one observation as “many”.
Supporting government censorship while bemoaning big government in the article is also baffling.
Yeah, but then he talks about a bill that scared him ( https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/110/hr1955/text ). Which doesn’t sound like much, just a little commission to study terrorism… it’s not unless one recalls the history of “HUAC” that the issue clarifies.
‘Rabble On..’ re: Word from Tundraville
Here is what Chris Hedges planned to tell the Toronto crowd protesting C-51:
“There are no internal constraints left to halt totalitarian capitalism. Electoral politics is a sham. The media is subservient to corporate power. The working class is being disempowered and impoverished. The legal system is a subsidiary of the corporate state. Any form of dissent, no matter how tepid, will soon to be blocked by an internal security apparatus empowered by anti-terrorist laws that will outstrip anything dreamed of by the East German Stasi state. And no one in Ottawa or Washington intends to help us. Opposition parties, such as the Democratic Party, may cry foul when out of power, but once in power they bow to the demands of the omnipotent military and security organs that serve our corporate masters. [..]
Those who do not rebel in our age of totalitarian capitalism, those who convince themselves that there is no alternative to collaboration with corporate tyranny are complicit in their own enslavement. They commit spiritual and moral suicide. They extinguish hope. They become the living dead.
No one Ottawa or Washington will halt the rise of the most sophisticated security and surveillance state in human history. The corporate coup is over. And they have won. It is up to us. We are the people we have been waiting for.
I do not know if we can build a better society. I do not even know if we will survive as a species. But I know these corporate forces have us by the throat. And they have my children by the throat. I do not fight fascists because I will win. I fight fascists because they are fascists. And this is a fight that in the face of the overwhelming forces against us requires us to find in all acts of sustained rebellion the embers of life, an intrinsic meaning that lies outside of certain success. It requires us to at once grasp reality and then refuse to allow this reality to paralyze us. It is, and I say this to people of all creeds or no creeds, to make an absurd leap of faith, to believe, despite all empirical evidence around us, that good always draws to it the good, that the fight for life always goes somewhere. We do not know where. The Buddhists call it karma. And in these sustained acts of resistance we make it possible to reclaim a future for the generations that come after us, a future that the corporate state, if not overthrown, will obliterate.”
http://rabble.ca/news/2015/03/chris-hedges-on-c-51-they-have-won-and-it-to-us?utm_content=buffer35699&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
A They Have Our Children By The Throat Production [ht`pska]
#rabbledabbledo
http://www.wordfromtundraville.bah
The anti-conspiracy theory discourse is also pretty frightening:
http://www.voltairenet.org/article187030.html
I smell Cass Sunstein behind all this….
I’ve go a bunch of old Iraq resistance videos from 2003-2006 still squirreled away on my HD. I was thinking of putting them up on the torrent-o-sphere soon.
Aren’t defense industry whores who are looking for more innocent civilians to murder in another war “terrorists”?:
http://investmentwatchblog.com/defense-industry-whores-release-nuclear-iran-ad-to-scare-america/
Ok texan, I have some more reading for you. See my comment here: https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/01/09/solidarity-charlie-hebdo-cartoons/#comment-104515
That’s in significant opposition to Glenn’s column. Do a ctrl F search of my name in that thread and see me disagreeing a lot more. I also pointedly disagreed with Glenn on Twitter on matters pertaining to Charlie Hebdo and the righteousness of publishing blasphemy.
You, texan, committed a great error by making a loud, pompous announcement of a claimed fact without researching whether it was actually a fact. Or qualifying your absolute AT ALL. Very dumb.
Mr. Greenwald
Nineteen people were murdered in Tunisia yesterday. Most were tourist from Europe targeted by “hapless” Muslims in a terrorist attack designed to attack the tourism industry in Tunisia. Clearly the Islamic terrorists were mentally deranged probably trained by the FBI in a sting operation gone terribly wrong. It’s exactly these kind of attacks that drive support for bulk collection of metadata by western governments. Since the brutal attacks in Mumbai, Islamic terrorists are increasingly realizing that one or two terrorists can reek havoc with just an AK-47. In Mumbai, five terrorists with little more than automatic weapons killed 160 people.
Five thousand hapless and mentally deranged Muslims have traveled to Syria and Iraq to participate in the war between brutal dictators like Assad and fighters primarily supported by Arab governments. This is a regional battle to roll back the regional imperialism by Iran. For the Arab governments, this was a golden opportunity to undercut the reach of Iran. The Islamic State has stepped in to fill the void with help from extremist Muslims from throughout the Middle East and Europe. Europe has a major problem with Islamic extremism (Hapless Muslim Syndrome).
As long as the threat continues to escalate, western governments will do what is necessary to “monitor” the source of the threat.
Five thousand from EUROPE I meant to say.
The clarification was important.
Without it, the post was just a collection of unrelated sentences.
Now it’s just a collection of unrelated sentences.
HAHAHAHAHAHA
Another good one, Doc.
That was certainly a step up from your normal response simply because it was shorter. Still no substance though.
Thanks Doc.
I think you really actually know you are full of poopoocockie,but for some reason,you keep spewing it.oy.
Say Craig, #BDS won the campaign and the election in Israel — isn’t that great? Bibi admitted what has always been true — that he’d never allow a Palestinian state to be formed — to pander to the many Zionist fanatics who would vote for him on that basis. He also made a nakedly racist call to counter all the horrible Arab votes. Why, it was like Mississippi c. 1950: “The Negroes are voting!”
Zionist Tom Friedman had this to say in the NYT:
Er, these are my words, not Friedman’s: “But it’s starkly clear given that Bibi did, in fact, win. Nothing is going to stop the BDS avalanche now; justice for Palestinians is closer.”
“………Say Craig, #BDS won the campaign and the election in Israel — isn’t that great? Bibi admitted what has always been true — that he’d never allow a Palestinian state to be formed — to pander to the many Zionist fanatics who would vote for him on that basis. He also made a nakedly racist call to counter all the horrible Arab votes……”
A couple of important points from your (off topic) post:
1. The goal of the BDS campaign is to dismantle the Jewish state so that won’t happen anytime soon Mona. You will likely see more European governments recognize a Palestinian state – and more limited economic boycotts of products produced in the West Bank. Above all else Netanyahu promotes the interests of Israel, but Israel will pay a price down the road for what he said during the campaign. As I have stated numerous times in the past, you cannot promote your own self-determination while denying the Palestinians their rights as well. Abbas will continue to take the Palestinian case to countries world-wide. Abbas has done a poor job for the Palestinians, but better than Hamas which continues to get Palestinians killed. Dismantling of the Jewish state would of course cause a mass exodus of Jews who would be in serious danger from Sunni terrorists like Hamas and ISIS. BDS will not succeed in the way you hope, Mona. There will be no avalanche of support for the BDS campaign because the goals are wrong (and unrealistic). Economic pressure can help establish a Palestinian state, however.
As long as Islamists continue to make gains in the Middle East through violence – especially targeting Jews world-wide – right wing Jewish Israeli politicians will be able to aggressively promote their agenda.
2. Votes Mona? Did you notice you said “votes”? Here is what the state-run New York Times said about the Arabs leading up to the voting yesterday (March 15, 2015):
“…….Now, polls cited by the Israeli media suggest the Arab alliance is likely to become the third-largest faction in Parliament with 13 of its 120 seats, potentially preventing Mr. Netanyahu from cobbling together the 61 seats he needs to form a coalition and stay in power………..Unlike Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, and most Arab residents of East Jerusalem, Palestinian citizens of Israel have full voting rights…….”
Currently, Arabs are fighting and dying for “voting rights” which have been denied around the Middle East forever. This has helped give rise to a particularly deadly strain of Islamism which we see throughout the world today.
“……He also made a nakedly racist call to counter all the horrible Arab votes. Why, it was like Mississippi c. 1950: “The Negroes are voting!”…..”
Don’t you mean Ferguson, Mona?
Thanks.
I’ll let Tom Friedman’s comments stand in response to the rest of your barely coherent scribblings, but will say about the above: whatever else is true, and whatever may be official mission statements from BDS, a central goal of that project is to isolate Israel and tar it with leper status, as was done to apartheid South Africa.
That isolation is succeeding apace, very nicely. And now it will speed up. To what result, as Palestinian Yousef Munayyer writes today in the NYT, emphasis mine:
And Israel just re-elected this face of Israeli intransigence after he foreswore a Palestinian state and made racist claims about Arab voters. Just the steroid injection BDS and justice need.
My response is only incoherent because you choose to make it so. There is a lot of politics surrounding the rise of Islamic extremism which Israel (Syria, Iraq etc.) uses for political advantage. That is what this article by Greenwald is about – SECURITY (because of Islamic extremism).
The BDS campaign is about dismantling the Jewish state. Nothing more, nothing less. Of course, that is your goal as well. The response by Yousef Munayyer is exactly the way the Palestinians should approach this issue – politically (and peacefully). I have always supported that position. In 2000, Arafat responded to an offer of peace from Israel by instigating the second Intifada – a war which cost the lives of 5500 people. No decision by any leader of the Palestinians or Israelis has cost more toward peace than that single horrible decision by the Nobel Prize winner. Hamas now has taken over that role. There is no doubt that Hamas will attempt to provoke Israel into another confrontation for political reasons. The more Palestinian children that die, the better for their cause.
The US and Europe will not support a BDS campaign anymore than Putin will allow free elections in Russia (or even allow his political opponents to live). The Palestinians gained politically by the remarks of Netanyahu, and they will continue to take their cause into the international arena. Limited sanctions will continue to grow. This is entirely predictable. However, there will be no return of Palestinian refugees to Israel. Immigration and land laws will continue to benefit Jews in Israel. Israel will remain a Jewish state until they freely decide to dismantle the borders.
Thanks.
The American and European people increasingly support BDS. Everyone from students passing divestment resolutions on campus, to academics and performing artists declining to appear in Israel, the movement is growing large, just as it did in the case of apartheid South Africa.
Your version of Arafat’s history from 2000 is a non sequitur to these points. But then, that’s what you do.
“……Your version of Arafat’s history from 2000 is a non sequitur to these points. But then, that’s what you do…..”
The point is ALWAYS irrelevant if you have no counter to the point. Unfortunately, in your effort to blame the Israelis for all the ills of the Palestinians, you leave out little inconvenient truths. One of the primary reasons that Israel clamped down so hard on the Palestinians is because of the second Intifada which left 1000 Israelis dead. That was followed by turning Gaza into a terror state after the Israeli pullout with 15000 rockets launched at Israel since 2000. The Palestinians have been anything but peaceful. That’s one reason why the left has not fared so well in Israel.
So while I support the Palestinian effort to take their case to the international arena to help pressure the Israelis, they have built the mud puddle they are wallowing in right now.
Thanks.
Don’t know about that, but your notion of Arafat and the history of the second intifada is, logically, a non sequitur vis-a-vis the excellent news that Bibi won the election after making explicit: 1. That he will never all a Palestinian state, and 2. racist calls for the good Jews to smother the vote of those damned Arabs. As I’ve said, this will put BDS on steroids, which in turn is the best bet for leading to justice for Palestinians.
Don’t you just love how “primarily supported by Arab governments” whitewashes the hundreds of millions of US taxpayer dollars handed over to those who have joined either IS or al Qaida in Syria…
… and how he pretends those “Arab governments” aren’t themselves “brutal dictators” and monarchs in order to falsely present one side in the conflict as undesirable.
Pushing that agenda and supporting anti-American censorship while ignoring the serious negative consequences detailed in the article is typical of the Big Government, Constitution trashing types.
Never mind that those very same types intentionally allow countless extremist websites to operate unmolested in order to glean intel from them.
It’s like their right hand doesn’t know what their other right hand is doing… or at least they hope nobody realizes how they contradict themselves when selling their misguided policies.
The posting in this low budget site is horrible. I didn’t see your post until now. I agree that the Arab governments are some of the worst on the planet. Only Saudi Arabia, UAE, Qatar and others are still not as bad as Syria (or Iraq under Saddam Hussein). Currently, it is your beloved Russia that is propping up Assad supplying weapons and funding because of the military base in Syria. Syria is a Russian ally. Two hundred thousand Muslims have died because of the Russian, Iranian and Hezbollah-supported Assad regime which began the war crushing participants in the Arab Spring. Iran has revolutionary guard on the ground as does Hezbollah. Hezbollah is a part of the government of Lebanon. It is Assad who is the worst of the lot however. You take “liberalism” to a new low with your support for Assad – or is that extreme leftism?
As I mentioned in previous threads, the US has stayed relatively clear of Syria passing up a golden opportunity to bomb the hell out of the Assad regime. The US doesn’t do everything asked by our allies – like Saudi Arabia which pressured the US to bomb Syria. My guess is that the Saudis are probably a little frazzled by the current US bombing campaign of ISIS who have done far more to damage the Assad regime than the rebels. Indeed, the US is aligned with Iran on fighting ISIS in Iraq. For the Arab countries, making Assad bleed undermines the reach of Iran and undercuts their power. A US-Iran nuclear deal will severely cut powerful US sanctions against the pariah Iranian state – and is opposed by the Arabs like the plague (and, of course, Israel). That’s the goal. The US (unfortunately) does not always walk in lock-step with Arab allies.
Thanks.
“relatively clear” and “not as bad” is more whitewashing… or some may say dishonesty.
Downplaying and defending US funding and arming of the very extremists that attacked America on 9/11 in order to effect regime change in Syria is not “relatively clear” in any way, shape or form.
The revisionism of the attack on Syria continues.
Likewise the absolving of the attackers of all the death and destruction they have caused while bemoaning that direct US military involvement with a far higher body count didn’t occur.
Even Tea Partiers knew better than to support that hypocrisy.
Wishing we marched in “lockstep” with our Arab “allies” and “of course Israel” is beyond the pale.
Only a neolibcon true believer would advocate selling out our values and country like that.
But, perhaps I am falsely assuming he is actually an American.
Your interlocutor, Mr. Summers, is a hardcore, rightwing Zionist for whom Israel is the Alpha and Omega of issues. He disingenuously puts Israel in parentheses thus:
For Craig, all of these issues reduce simply to: “Is this good for Israel as the hardright Zionists like me perceive it?”
Hi Mona
Yes, I know.
But, I like to write for any possible fence sitters who may wander upon these words, so I take a slightly different approach.
I do appreciate your methods though.
Every angle of attack should be taken when justice is on the line.
“……“relatively clear” and “not as bad” is more whitewashing… or some may say dishonesty.
Downplaying and defending US funding and arming of the very extremists that attacked America on 9/11 in order to effect regime change in Syria is not “relatively clear” in any way, shape or form…..”
You are going to have to cite a publication so I understand exactly what you are referring to with that accusation. And it’s just as clear that you are whitewashing the involvement of Iran, Russia and Assad in the brutal crackdown on Syrians. You sincerely want to believe that the US is the cause of the war, but they are not. You pulled the same bullshit with Russia’s annexation of Crimea saying the people of Crimea voted (at the point of a gun and forget the illegal seizure of land from a sovereign nation). You really have no grounds to accuse anyone of whitewashing anything. The US didn’t underwrite a coup. That’s another crock of bullshit. That doesn’t mean that the CIA wasn’t involved. However, you can just about bet the bank that the KGB….er. SVR was fully engaged in Ukraine trying to retain their puppet government. It failed. Russian policies failed.
The most difficult thing for hard core leftist to understand is that Ukrainians were under the USSR for decades and never voted once. Of course they wanted closer ties to Europe denied by the Russian puppet. When the USSR collapsed, 15 countries were given their freedom – and most beat a hasty path to the EU and NATO. Can you figure out why? Are you so callus (anti-American) that you cannot sympathize with Ukrainians? But that is typical of the radical left which opposes US policies under all circumstances – even as the Russians claim a sovereign nation within their sphere of influence and go to war to prove it. It’s still the fault of the US.
You really have nothing to stand on in Ukraine or Syria, Altohone. Nothing at all.
CS- you are now denying what you’ve already admitted in other threads.
The US has spent hundreds of millions of dollars funding and arming the “rebels” now part of al Qaida and IS in Syria in covert, then overt actions to effect regime change. Yes, Saudi Arabia and other Persian Gulf Sunni monarchies funneled more money into the attack than we have, but our role cannot be ignored.
That is the reality you are whitewashing.
Syria defending itself against foreign terrorists is something every American should understand is their right.
Likewise defending themselves against Syrians who fight alongside the foreign aggressors.
Syria’s allies helping them doesn’t change that reality either.
You trying to change the subject to Ukraine where there was a successful coup backed by the US makes even less sense than denying our role in Syria.
You want citations, read your own comments in previous threads.
A little integrity and memory goes a long way.
Your preaching of false claims as if they are facts is neither informative nor convincing either.
Likewise your fixation on a left/right divide. Truth and justice are not partisan, as I pointed out earlier in regards to the right wing Tea Partiers opposing US arming and funding of the extremists attacking Syria… not to mention bombing to help them seize power.
You neolibcons may be right wingers, but not all right wingers are neolibcons.
“……CS- you are now denying what you’ve already admitted in other threads…..”
Ok. Then you better find it and quote me. I’m not depending on your memory or mine for something I YOU say I said.
“…..The US has spent hundreds of millions of dollars funding and arming the “rebels” now part of al Qaida and IS in Syria in covert, then overt actions to effect regime change. Yes, Saudi Arabia and other Persian Gulf Sunni monarchies funneled more money into the attack than we have, but our role cannot be ignored…….”
Again, you better find where I said that and quote me with a reference to the article. The US did not arm or fund al-Qaeda.
“……Syria defending itself against foreign terrorists is something every American should understand is their right…..”
You are forgetting who started the war in the first place – and you are defending Assad the murderer. Assad clamped down and murdered hundreds of peaceful democratic reform-seeking demonstrators initiating the civil war. He used tanks, war planes and artillery against the same demonstrators who took up arms to defend themselves. His father had used the exact strategy against demonstrations killing thousands of people in the early 1980s. Only it didn’t work for Assad. This was an attempt by Assad to quash the Arab Spring. This was entirely the fault of Assad. I can only believe you are ignorant or work for Assad. Do you have any other fairy tales why the war began? Assad was also accused of planning the assassination of Rafik Hariri, the former Prime Minister of Lebanon. After the assassination, Syria pulled their troops out of Lebanon. A couple of Hezbollah members are accused – and Hezbollah would not carry out the assassination without the approval of Assad.
“……Syria’s allies helping them doesn’t change that reality either…..”
Again, entirely bullshit. What if the US sent troops in to quell the uprising in Bahrain? You fucking leftist would be besides yourselves criticizing US involvement, but when Iran, Hezbollah and Russia interfere, that’s besides the point. The extreme left is unable to see through their own BS and hypocrisy because you believe all of the world’s ills are due to US (and Israeli) policies. Everyone else has good intentions, I guess. Another opposition leader was murdered in Russia. Obviously, that’s the CIA at work.
“……You trying to change the subject to Ukraine where there was a successful coup backed by the US makes even less sense than denying our role in Syria…..”
That’s because you are consistently hypocritical. That’s a slam dunk. If you are so sure the US was behind the coup, cite me some information that proves that point. Other than that, you are defending Russia’s right to interfere in the internal affairs of a sovereign nation; illegally annex land from a sovereign nation; and back (start(?)) a war in eastern Ukraine. And you believe you are seeking truth and justice? Even Assad couldn’t lie to himself that convincingly.
“……Truth and justice are not partisan, as I pointed out earlier in regards to the right wing Tea Partiers opposing US arming and funding of the extremists attacking Syria….”
Fair enough – now take off your anti-American blinders. The far left is fixated on American policies to the exclusion of human rights everywhere else in the world – like in Syria and Ukraine. The left (liberals) used to criticize all policies that were wrong – including US policies. The far left is obsessed by US policies. If Russia invades a country, that’s the fault of the US. I’ve had plenty of idiots on the fringe left tell me that the US was at fault for the RUSSIAN invasion of Afghanistan. This is exactly the same situation. You can’t even sympathize with how Ukrainians might feel after being dominated by the Soviets for decades. You are no liberal, and you have no desire for truth or justice. That’s a certainty.
Admitting you have memory problems does explain quite a lot.
Funny how you only forget the stuff that doesn’t support your agenda though.
Some may call it selective memory, but it’s really back in the dishonesty category
.
I don’t understand why you’re quoting me and then pretending that I was quoting you though.
Paying closer attention to punctuation may be something you should work on too.
The people the US funded and armed are “now” either fighting for al Qaida or IS… note the crucial word “now” you ignored.
Overt US funding for the formerly “moderate rebels” was publicly admitted by Obama himself, but they have all been absorbed into the extremist forces, and officially no longer exist even though they never actually existed as they welcomed and fought alongside the extremist foreigners who started the “civil war” in Syria, and thus should have always been seen as extremists too.
Our covert efforts to trigger the “civil war” were widely reported, but when your head is buried in the sand, you can deny such things forever. Informing yourself takes effort I guess.
Your siding with IS in Syria because of your anti-Assad agenda is troubling.
Pretending that Assad isn’t rightfully defending his country and that Russia, Iran and Hezbollah aren’t aiding the fight against IS as requested (as opposed to interfering as you claim) is bizarre.
Pretending that the Syrians who took up arms to fight alongside the extremists are worthy of sympathy as victims suggests you have spent too much time defending indefensible Israeli policies, while also bizarre and troubling.
I’ve mailed you a hanky for the spittle on your screen.
You may want to take something, as your foul language makes it difficult for anyone to take you seriously.
Like I’ve said before, repeating false claims doesn’t make them true.
texan wrote:
Of my, this will be fun. See here; https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/12/11/misogynistic-hateful-elected-official-democacratic-world-brazils-jair-bolsonaro/#comment-95549
And here: https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/12/11/misogynistic-hateful-elected-official-democacratic-world-brazils-jair-bolsonaro/#comment-95349
And see Glenn spar with me here: https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/12/11/misogynistic-hateful-elected-official-democacratic-world-brazils-jair-bolsonaro/#comment-95385
Just see half of my many comments in the whole thread: https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/12/11/misogynistic-hateful-elected-official-democacratic-world-brazils-jair-bolsonaro/
I should have made you put money on it.
BTW, the reason Alpha wouldn’t address whether my disagreeing with Glenn showed I don’t regard him as my “Great Leader” is because he, in his Steb incarnation, was active in that thread. He already knew better but is not amenable to evidence or to admitting he is wrong.
1) Among all the people you dislike you associate me with Steb. You could at least pick a famous individual…let’s say Ronald Reagan or Obama. I think I deserve it as one of the individuals you probably dislike the most here.
2) I really want to know whether your supernatural powers are natural or you obtained them somewhere. Or you just writing nonsense, drivel, which might get you “banned” here.
3) You don’t get it, do you? Nobody here has a duty to read and to answer neither your questions nor mine. The reason you keep asking the questions and you proposed that everybody should ignore a commentator who ignores your comments show how authoritarian you are. And of course, it is quite hilarious to have you ask them over and over. I am seriously thinking you will reach the thousand mark.
Uh-huh. As I said, the reason you won’t address whether my disagreeing with Glenn showed I don’t regard him as my “Great Leader” is because you were active in that thread. You already knew better but are not amenable to evidence or to admitting you are wrong.
Quickly..Greenwald is great, Greenwald is great, Greenwald is great.
Yes, he is great — at many things. But since I have vehement disagreements with him, it’s not logically tenable to cite him as my Great Leader.
Regarding the new Canadian Anti-Terrorist Bill C-51 and the new Australian law, what happens if a peaceful war refugee or political asylum seeker is against the foreign military invasion of his/her country? Will refugees be denied asylum and deported even if they can’t return home, or will they become targets of the surveillance system and racial communications made in private for the rest of their lives?
Thanks for the comment and discussion Glenn.
I wonder whether hate laws can be regarded as a softening-up operation for autocratic authorities who want to use anti-terrorism laws to both kill free speech and go after those whose ideas and proposals they don’t like.
I’ve never liked hate laws and never will.
What can be scarier than expressing support for free speech, if when doing so you express your support for those who decry the western (not eastern) ways of extremism? Is it not extremism to attack and kill millions of people who have not attacked (nor threatened to attack) the (US) homeland? Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan…To name a few, comes to mind. And what has come of those who have lied us into these “wars”(without a single declaration of war by the derelict congress), and have authorized torture, domestic spying, drone strikes, black lists…? And all because of 911? LMAO. That my friend was an inside job.
If I were young, poor and Muslim, it’s difficult for me to imagine how hard it would be to resist joining the jihad against the west.
Je suis Charlie what’s his name?
Seen this yet? Guilty in France of “apology for terrorism”. Sentence, 7 years,
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/french-comedian-dieudonn-given-suspended-sentence-over-charlie-hebdo-joke-10117120.html
On censorship: a sidebar.
http://news.yahoo.com/whistleblower-state-department-employees-don-t-sign-separation-031606877.html
“…objections to locking a woman in a cage for 5 years because on Facebook she approvingly posts articles about Muslims taking up arms,” Mona
“Also posts promoting the use of young children to fight for jihad.” Alpha brown
“That’s NOT what she was PROSECUTED and sent to fucking prison for five years for” Mona
The Crown Prosecution Service:
On 31 July 2014 Runa Khan pleaded guilty to disseminating a terrorist publication contrary to section 2(1) and 2 (e) of the Terrorism Act 2006. On four occasions she transmitted electronically the contents of a terrorist publication, intending an effect of her conduct to be a direct or indirect ENCOURAGEMENT or other INDUCEMENT to the commission, preparation or instigation of acts of terrorism, or intending an effect of her conduct to be the provision of assistance in the commission or preparation of such acts, or being reckless as to whether her conduct would have such an effect. The material disseminated was as follows:
On 19 September 2013 she transmitted electronically the contents of a terrorist publication, by posting on Facebook an article entitled “Sisters role in Jihad off the Battlefield’. This article was originally posted by a user called “Khalid Bin Waleed a Great Warrior’s photo”. When reposting it the defendant commented “Sisters this is excellent. Read it in sha Allah.” At the bottom of the posting is a picture of a group of women in Islamic dress, holding rifles. The article sets out a detailed blueprint for “RAISING MUJAHID CHILDREN.”
(That manual gave tips on how to prepare young children for jihad)
Other evidence presented to the court include pictures of small children in Syria holding guns found at her home.
Ok, they did include that she “promoted using young children” in the charge. So, they locked her in a cage for advocating Muslims taking up arms, including a Facebook post that includes advocacy of raising children to do it.
This is how it is done Alpha — when the evidence is there, an honest person says their interlocutor is correct. I make that concession on the relatively rare occasion I make a factual error; you routinely do not.
Now, do you think that woman merits 5 years in a cage for posting her views on Facebook? (See Brandenberg v. Ohio.)
The U.K is a sovereign country. You keep stating a US Supreme Court decision as if other countries should base their laws on US courts decisions. Should the U.K base it weapon laws on US Supreme Court District of Columbia Vs Heller? Should Germany base its traffic laws or its tough emission laws on Mexico’s? Moreover, you keep stating she “posted her views” as if she was just writing how bad the West is and how good using violence against Western forces is. She was “ENCOURAGING” and “INDUCING” mothers to train their young children for jihad. It is a FACT that children from Europe and the Middle East are being used by terrorist groups in the battle field. It is also a fact that children who run away from home to go to Syria have been “induced” by those kinds of posts online. At what point the judiciary should get involve?
Whether I agree or disagree with the decision is completely irrelevant. You or Greenwald can disagree or agree with any court decisions. The point is about judicial process that you and Greenwald have always asked for. Elected leaders passed a law. The police investigated an individual whom they believed broke the law. The police with an arrest warrant arrested the individual and searched her home. The prosecution brought the evidence to court. The court decided that the individual should be sentenced to five years. Suddenly, that process is questionable according to Greenwald because a “white” and “British” judge made the decision!
So, is Greenwald really asking for judicial process like the French case, or he is just asking for judicial decisions in line with his views? I believe it is the latter.
What I argue is that the reasoning and result in Brandenberg is morally correct. The U.S. is, in one area, better than nearly any other nation, and that is in the area of free speech. It has not always been, and with the Humanitarian Law Project case, it has seriously slipped. But in the main, SCOTUS in the 40s, 50s and 60s developed a body of case law that is excellent in this area, and which I argue is prescriptive.
It’s not right because it’s American; it’s right because it is right.
The Germans believe it is morally correct to make it very hard to spread an ideology that consists of promoting the genocide of an entire race. The Germans also believe it is morally correct to provide healthcare for all their citizens.
It’s not right because it’s German; it’s right because it is right. I am pretty sure that is what a German would state.
And what I’m arguing, and what GLenn is arguing, is that the Germans are wrong. I’m not a moral relativist; I believe in right answers.
You may believe the Germans are wrong, but you cannot reasonably state that their censorship laws have been more dangerous to their society than terrorism. So what is scarier? Their censorship laws they have strongly upheld for more than 50 years without altering their democratic values or terrorist attacks in their country that has caused deaths, injury and fear among the population for years.
Not so far, and I didn’t see Glenn argue otherwise. His piece specifies far more extreme terrorism-driven actions being taken in France, and also extreme policies in the UK and Australia, and looming in Canada. Those are reasonably more scary than terrorists attacks. To my knowledge, Germany has so far remained rather sane on the terrorism hysteria.
This statement was made in the context of the Runa Khan conviction:
Is he wrong to be concerned?
Every citizen has a right to be concerned about ANY laws. The Ferguson police abused even basic traffic laws!! However, as opposed to China or Iran, citizens in the U.K can disagree with the laws and vote for other lawmakers to repeal them. That is the main reason China and Iran are viewed as “Bad Countries” (although that an extreme description), not because they have censorship laws. Again, ask Greenwald who is familiar with the Free Press Index what would happen to a reporter who decides to challenge censorship laws in Iran.
Whataboutery. AKA non sequitur.
Greenwald’s column pertains to Internet speech in the Western democracies, not in the world. He wrote:
He’s a Westerner. I am. Our concerns are with what our Western democracies do — that civil liberties are robust in them — far more than speech policy in China.
He is the one who compared Western democracies with China and Iran. I just answered!
“Isn’t the exercise of this website-blocking power what has long been cited as reasons we should regard the Bad Countries — such as China and Iran — as tyrannies (which also usually cite “counterterrorism” to justify their censorship efforts)?” Glenn Greenwald
How is it non sequitur to state the reason we regard those countries as Bad is not the censorship laws but the inability of citizens, journalists like him in those countries to challenge the laws and vote for lawmakers to repeal them? You cannot possibly state that the people of Germany with tough censorship laws since the 50’s live under a tyranny similar to Iran.
Because it has nothing whatsoever to do with my comment to which you were replying, which pertained to the concerns of British police chief Peter Fahy. Fahy is a Westerner concerned about a police state evolving in his Western democracy.
(I have an opinion about your claims made in your non sequitur but those claims are not the topic under discussion.)
What is Islamic dress? When I lived in the Mid-East, Muslims and Christians all looked the same. They all wore white dishdashes and black and white or red and white shmaghs (if men) and black shirshes with head-scarves (if women).
This is fun, the UK can hack anyone, give whatever reason, or they can just leave that box blank:
“New court documents made public today have revealed the UK’s troublingly broad legal justification for state-sponsored hacking, including targeting individuals who are not under any suspicion of committing a crime.
…The noteworthy phrase comes at paragraph 77, when the GCHQ details a procedural point for “conduct[ing] equipment interference activity specifically against individuals who are not intelligence targets in their own right.” The passage indicates the agency has no qualms about collateral hacks like the recently revealed attack on the SIM card manufacturer Gemalto, which surveilled civilian infrastructure as a means to gain broader access, rather than because of any specific suspicions. Even where warrants do apply, the requirements for obtaining one are often laughably meager. Later paragraphs state that the identity of the target is only necessary when its known by the agents, and the details of the offense committed are only necessary “where relevant.””
http://www.theverge.com/2015/3/17/8237933/gchq-surveillance-hacking-snowden-privacy-international
Good story on Democracy Now (democracynow.org) today with Pardiss Kebriaei on Obama still punishing a father and son who were both torture victims of the US.
“During our stay in the American prison in Kandahar, we were subject to torture. The reason was that they wanted us to say that we were from al Qaida or the Taliban by force. My father’s forehead was fractured and the Red Cross saw this and wrote a report. My left hand was fractured and I suffered many diseases as well and there were also other methods of psychological pressure and fatigue like sleep deprivation for long hours and not going to relieve yourself…
…During our stay in [redacted by the government] we were subjected to bad treatment and the reason was so that we could say, by force, that we were from al Qaida or the Taliban. … [O]ne of the interrogators brought two wires connected to electricity and said that if you do not say that you and your father are from al Qaida or Taliban, I will place these in your neck.”
http://ccrjustice.org/khantumani
>”“I do not want to see sites that could lead people to take up arms on the Internet,” proclaimed Interior Minister Bernard Cazeneuve.”
I notice the French Foreign Legion site is still up … http://foreignlegion.info/joining/
*As to what is ‘scarier’ Glenn, you know perfectly well ‘one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter.’
Hmmm, Guillaume Champeau has a law background, a blog, an interest in foreign policy, in censorship and journalism…he’s sort of a French Glenn Greenwald…only Greenwald’s blog didn’t get removed from the internet.
Here’s a topical article on how France plans to automatically detect terrorists (ironic, maybe they used this software to determine that Champeau’s blog was terrorism?)
“En particulier, le projet de loi cité par Le Figaro imposerait aux intermédiaires techniques (FAI, hébergeurs et éditeurs) de “détecter, par un traitement automatique, une succession suspecte de données de connexion”.”
http://www.numerama.com/magazine/32502-terrorisme-la-france-exigera-dechiffrement-et-detection-automatique-de-suspects.html
For those who read French, Guillaume Champeau is among those whose web sites have been blocked by the French government, without any judicial process: “Moi, censuré par la France pour mes opinions politiques.”
http://www.numerama.com/magazine/32516-moi-censure-par-la-france-pour-mes-opinions-politiques.html
M. Champeau finds the accusations that he incites terrorism risible:
A narrow case of the general fact: exponentially more murder, torture and imprisonment of innocents has been committed in the past half-century by legitimate state actors than by the combined efforts of terror groups. We just get more irritated when freelancers do now and then what governments with UN Representatives do routinely.
Well written lambasting of the French decision by one of its victims. His one person blog was one of the sites blocked. I can’t determine the quality of it (because it is no longer there). He makes some strong points. He wonders why his blog, an influential critique of western foreign policy, (he says he had 40 000 Facebook likes) was blocked, but you can still see in France, sites that play ISIS propaganda videos:
“Je suis parfaitement conscients que mes articles ont pu déranger voire même choquer mais il y a une exagération dans ce blocage. Savez-vous qu’il existe des sites qui diffusent du contenu de l’Etat islamique et qui sont toujours libre d’accès en France ?”
http://www.numerama.com/magazine/32516-moi-censure-par-la-france-pour-mes-opinions-politiques.html
Oops. I guess I should have read all the way to top of new comments before posting Guillaume Champeau’s stuff, since you already did! Pardonnez-moi!
The blog that is gone, blocked, from its name, I presume was dedicated to things loosly “islamic” (comment on what is going on in Syria, for example) whereas the remaining publication “Numerama” is mostly about free speech, technology (excepting the recent articles lamenting the French government blockage).
While it is good that Champeau has a remaining platform to ready to respond (seeing as of yet none of the mainstream media has given him space, to my knowledge), I was wondering, perhaps it would have made censorship more difficult if he hadn’t compartmentalized his opinions? Did he make it easy for France to pick off, an isolated easy target, if he himself didn’t think those “islamic” opinions belonged in Numerama?
Since so many guys and gals here seem to read French, perhaps someone would be so kind as to give me the gist of this article. It appears to be about someone in Kiev being responsible for the murder of Nemtsov:
http://lesakerfrancophone.net/assassinat-de-nemtsov-ukrainian-connection/
Thanks!
According to your French site, the article is a translation from English. It is indeed: http://fortruss.blogspot.fr/2015/03/nemtsovs-killer-was-hired-by-commander.html
Thanks Mona!
One of the five sites blocked by the French government, Islamic-News.info, has had its Facebook and Twitter accounts suspended without explanation:
“Il aura donc suffi d’un ordre de la police française, sans passer par l’avis d’un juge indépendant, pour faire disparaître tous les moyens de communication en ligne du site Islamic-News.info, qui disait publier “l’essentiel de l’actualité dans le monde musulman”. Selon nos constatations, la page Facebook du site qui avait réuni plus de 40.000 “j’aime” a été supprimée mardi, alors qu’elle était toujours ouverte (mais inactive) après la décision du ministère de l’intérieur d’exiger le blocage du site d’information islamique, accusé de faire l’apologie d’actes de terrorisme ou de provoquer à des actes de terrorisme (une accusation grave que nous n’avons pas réussi à confirmer).
Auparavant, le compte Twitter et l’hébergement du site sur OVH avaient également été suspendus, les plateformes et intermédiaires techniques craignant certainement d’être accusés de complicité d’apologie du terrorisme s’ils continuaient à fournir à Islamic News les moyens de s’exprimer. Personne ne répond par ailleurs ce mardi à l’adresse e-mail hébergée par Outlook (donc Microsoft), peut-être à son tour désactivée.”
http://www.numerama.com/magazine/32505-islamic-news-perd-aussi-sa-page-facebook-mais-pourquoi.html
I see the good in this! They are doing it in open and explicit ways!
Where are the big pencils now? Where are the jes sues Charlie slogans now?
Of course, they would say our jokes and terrorism is not the same as theirs …
Satyagraha
RCL
I remember adding “Je suis Dieudonne” right after the French started this stuff, but there are still plenty of dips willing to follow a McCarthyist model and try to take the big pile of nothing that Dieudonne is accused of and stick it to anyone who tries to defend him: http://www.politico.com/story/2015/03/cynthia-mckinney-dieudonne-115988.html
“…objections to locking a woman in a cage for 5 years because on Facebook she approvingly posts articles about Muslims taking up arms,”
Also posts promoting the use of young children to fight for jihad. As opposed to you, many people do have a problem when terrorism is promoted to children or when kids are in the battle field in Syria and Iraq killing others in the name of Allah.
“You are approaching crapflooding. Better keep on eye on your volume if your thing is random drivel. Excess posting of that is the only thing Greenwald does ban.” Mona
Of course, he will ban me. Isn’t it what I stated since the first time I came here? Have you sent him the email asking him to do so? You better send it to him soon before your temper explodes because I have no intention of praising him here.
Hey everybody, Mona says “EXCESS POSTING” …yes, Mona blames another commentator for excess posting! Amazing.
“Mona blames another commentator for excess posting! Amazing.” – Alpha brown
That is inaccurate and hyperbolic, as it was not what was said in context:
“…random drivel. Excess posting of that is the only thing Greenwald does ban.” – Mona
“The hardest tumble a man can take is to fall over his own bluff.” – Ambrose Bierce
“random drivel. Excess posting of that is the only thing Greenwald does ban.” – Mona
Oh sorry, so let me state it appropriately then,
Mona blames another commentator for excess posting of “random drivel”! Amazing.
Of course, the commentator (Mona) with the history of using vulgar words and images against those who disagree with her Great Leader, Glenn Greenwald, is the one who decides whether a comment constitutes nonsense, garbage etc. I guess she better contact him as soon as possible to ban me because I have absolutely no intent in bowing to whatever Greenwald states.
To repeat, yet again, my inquiry, which you won’t answer because to do so would undermine your point. The very fact that you will not address these questions indicates you do know that:
———————————————————-
You:
Me: Where is your evidence it is a “FACT” that I am unable to admit Glenn could be wrong? If you learned of at least one occasion where I strongly disagreed with Glenn on a material matter would you in turn agree that your assertion is wrong?
Or is your assertion a matter of faith not amenable to falsification?
Also, where is your evidence that X’s use of vulgarity when defending individual Y means that X considers Y their “Great Leader”?
————————————————
You again won’t answer, but to ask these questions is to answer them for you. (I have vehemently and publicly said that Glenn is wrong, more than once.)
You only have to ask that question for roughly 900 times and then you will get the answer you need.
I for one would LOVE to see a post where you disagree with Glenn, Mona. I don’t believe you can produce one.
Mona:
I’ve jokingly accused you of being Glenn. I did that because anyone with half a brain quickly concludes when perusing TI comments that you love yourself perhaps only second to how much you love GG.
You (like that knucklehead, ‘never-an-original-though, Kitt) actually think you are brilliant. It’s fascinating!!
Sister, you are nothing but a bully with a bias.
You call people names; you threaten to ‘Tell on them so they’ll be banned’, and when cornered, you always scream: ‘EVIDENCE!’ … which apparently means, “Cite your source” … as if all sources are credible. Bah! You’re the worse kind of idiot: One who thinks she’s the opposite.
You really need to either man up and admit you are in love with Glenn or find something else to occupy your time. Because you are a net negative to TI.
Do see the top of the thread where I take all the wind out of your limp sails.
You are one of the last people any rational person would consult as to whether I or anyone am a “net benefit” to TI. You’re an authoritarian asshat.
You’re not only crapflooding with random drivel, but, as exampled in that comment, you’re also lying pathologically.
Precisely.
I haven’t, but there are others who lodge such requests and I, of course, cannot speak for them.
You are Steb. Your pretense of being “in contact” with him, and claiming he was banned (never happened), is transparent. Your Steb account was not banned; this Alpha one likely won’t be either unless you do both of these together: post 1. mindless bullshit in 2. excessive volume.
There is no appeal from what Glenn considers to constitute both 1 and 2. This criteria applied with his judgment has also caused some unpopular loss of people supportive of him, but it’s his space, his standards. So, Steb, tho you have not been banned heretofore, keep up the nonsense in sufficient volume, and you probably will be.
I like it !! Temper! Temper!! Here we go again, Greenwald is great, Greenwald is great, Greenwald is great. Better now?
Again, Steb cannot post anything with his name and his email account ( I do not think he even cares about TI anyway). He and I assume that he was banned for being against most of Greenwald’s views. As TI does not explain technical issues so all assumptions can be on the table. it is a free world, you can believe that I am Obama, Steb, Britney Spears, Ronald Reagan, Tom Cruise, a Squirrel, Madonna….I do not really care. TI is a private entity they can ban whoever they want, but neither you nor your Great Leader will ever dictate me what position to take in any issue. So, again contact him to tell him to ban me because I am not here to neither praise him nor to make my point with ELEGANT words and images that you typically use.
Ohh yes, congratulations for your supernatural powers. You find out that Alpha and Steb are the same person without even meeting them. Did you get those powers from Greenwald too? Finally, we have one thing in common. You and I never met Steb!
Steb/Alpha wrote;
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/03/17/whats-scarier-terrorism-governments-unilaterally-blocking-websites-name/#comment-117498
That’s not what she was prosecuted and sent to fucking prison for five years for. She was sent to prison because on Facebook she approvingly posted articles about Muslims taking up arms. You are such a cretin you have no problem with that truly unAmerican legal standard. See the U.S. Supreme Court in Brandenberg v. Ohio.
Perhaps you should review the case against Mrs Khan. It is available for free at the Crown Prosecutor Site, counselor.
You post it, if you truly think it helps you in any way.
It will help me, but definitely not you because only your Great Leader may decide whether a judicial process is acceptable. You should make sure that the UK, France, Denmark, Finland, Norway, Ireland, Germany and other sovereign nations design their legal standards on the basis of US Supreme Court decisions.
Yet more non sequiturs from you, eh Steb.
What’s scarier? I’ll tell you what’s scarier: It’s the blocking of websites; and we’re much more likely to run into that than to be the victim of terrorism. Besides, the U.S. and the other Western governments are the biggest terrorists; so, if we are citizens of, and live in these Western countries (lucky Glenn Greenwald that, though he is a U.S. citizen, he no longer lives in the U.S., but resides in Brazil), we are more likely to run into their terrorism in the form of violating, contravening and abrogating our human and civil rights, than to be the victim of an an act of violent terrorism at the hands of an “al CIAduh(!)”-created extremist group.
It’s related to the question of who decides who lives and who dies. Who decides what websites get blocked? If they, as they increasingly do, feel that all criticism of the increasingly tyrannical Western governments is “terrorism”, then pretty soon they will be blocking more and more expressions of free speech for “thought crime(s)” against the government. Thus, the power to decide what websites get blocked, like the power to decide who lives and who dies, invariably gets abused, and will be abused to a larger and larger extent.
This is completely inimical to True Liberty and Freedom; but, naturally, the increasingly fascist Western governments, and global government, don’t think so. They want absolute domination and control, and are cementing it more and more into place as I write this, making us, very quickly, less and less Truly Free. What these globalist and Western powers believe are “freedom” and “liberty”, are in truth completely unrecognizable as having any actual connection with True Liberty and Freedom anymore at all, since the former is devoid of any of the latter, except in appearance only.
The U.S. and other Western, increasingly globalist, governments are getting more and more totalitarian, oppressive and repressive with each passing day; and “We, the People”, who these governments are supposed to be answerable to, are intentionally and by design being made powerless to a worse and worse extent, with tyranny and fascism increasing by leaps and bounds all around us. So, what are we to do? Take all of this laying down and do nothing about it, but let it get worse and worse? No, we must “throw off” this more and more illegitimate government:
“IT IS (OUR) *DUTY*, TO *THROW OFF* SUCH GOVERNMENT”
Written by John S. Browne [my “nom d’plume” (aka, “pen name”) on RSN]
Thursday, 26 February 2015 08:50
http://readersupportednews.org/pm-section/256-justice/28793-qit-is-our-duty-to-throw-off-such-governmentq
Blocking websites that advocate violent extremism is scarier than violent extremism?
There’s a difference between defending free speech, and defending advocacy of violence. Facebook would not tolerate a page advocating lynching and murdering minorities. The government may legally take down sites that engage in illegal activity, such as peddling illegal narcotics or child pornography. This is not censorship, it’s responsible governance.
I, for one, am shocked you would support and defend people who call for the mass murder of religious minorities. It really says something about your own values, don’t you think?
Look you fascist shill-troll liar, I did no such thing; and you are falsely accusing me which should get you comment deleted because it is illegal libel, slander, character assassination and defamation of character, as well as an extreme threat against me in falsely seeking to get me into trouble with the government. (PLEASE, T.I., DELETE THE FOREGOING COMMENTER’S ABOVE POST FOR ALL SAID ILLEGAL ACTIVITY.)
Of course the government has the right to take down websites that TRULY perpetrate illegal activity. The point is that the government is already abusing that power and taking down sites that simply exercise freedom of speech; which, as Glenn Greenwald has written about here, and according the U.S. Supreme Court case LAW precedent, includes free expression of anger, unpopular speech, so-called “offensive” speech, and nothing but written and/or spoken advocacy and/or support of violence; and, as long as it is not acted upon, and actual violence is not carried out, it is a free speech right to express, according to the U.S. Supreme Court and case LAW precedent that is just as much LAW as all of the other laws in the U.S. that are constitutional.
As soon as government people start, as they have, to determine what supposedly is and is not legal free speech, they have started us down a slippery slope to where they will say that more and more legal free speech is now outlawed and supposedly “illegal”, and they will falsely accuse innocent people, as they are also already doing, of “supporting ‘terrorism'”.
This is obviously what you fascist-minded people want, and will love it when people who did nothing but non-violently defend human rights and civil liberties are “disappeared” by the government and indefinitely imprisoned as so-called “unprivileged ‘enemy’ belligerents” [supposedly having no rights, rights that they are born with, that are inalienable, immutable and inviolable (in other words, that CANNOT be legally taken away from them; and, in fact, are such an inherent part of EVERYONE, that even if the government believes it can and has taken them away, they are still an inseparable part of all those they falsely accuse of “terrorism” because they did nothing but non-violently exercise their innate free speech rights)], with no true due process of law (their rights to truly-fair trials that are not AT ALL kangeroo “trials” like all of the military commission “trials” are).
Thus, it is YOU “good (fascist-minded) ‘Amerikans'”, very much like the so-called “good Germans” of Nazi Germany, who are supporting terrorism, NOT those who truly uphold, defend and protect the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights, and do nothing but non-violently exercise their human rights delineated therein (civil liberties are human rights, too). Therefore, you should completely stop advocating the increasing government terrorism against innocent Americans, as you are doing, and as you have done through your above reply comment to me.
Let me clarify a couple of things:
First of all, to quote myself, “Of course the government has the right to take down websites that TRULY perpetrate illegal activity”; but I should have added, “…as long as the laws that determine ‘illegal activity’ are truly, fully and completely constitutional…”.
Secondly, the U.S. Supreme Court, before it was taken over by five fascists, used to understand that one cannot logically, safely and constitutionally start down the slippery slope of criminalizing certain speech, including speech supporting violence and terrorism. They recognized that once the government starts down that slippery slope (as they now have today), they will invariably abuse their authority under color (appearance) of law, and make more and more of that which was previously and logically free speech, into allegedly being “illegal”; thus, really, doing away with freedom of speech. There can be no such thing as partial freedom of speech. We either have full freedom of speech, or we don’t really have freedom of speech at all; and, when some speech can be criminalized, it becomes unsafe to speak freely at all, thus stifling and chilling freedom of speech.
Like I said, the U.S. Supreme Court used to understand the foregoing, but now they no longer do, and they are making many things, and more and more things, that used to be free rights, not just free speech rights, out to supposedly be “illegal” and “acts of ‘terrorism'”, etc.; thus, increasingly, unconstitutionally, criminalizing freedoms and liberties; and, because those criminalizations, and/or those “laws” that criminalize liberties and freedoms, are unconstitutional and null and void, and we not only have right right to not recognize those “laws”, we have the DUTY to not obey them, and to stand up against them, because they violate the spirit and the letter of the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights, and our innate human and civil rights.
As the Declaration of Independence makes very clear, we are NOT to blindly obey government; and, once it becomes despotic and/or tyrannical, as the U.S. government has become, and is increasingly becoming right now, and as I already delineated in my original comment (which you, “Mitch”, all very conveniently and completely ignored), “…it is our DUTY, to THROW OFF [all despotic, tyrannical government, and set up a new government (or restore the original one that truly, fully and completely upheld freedom and liberty, if it ever did) truly beneficial] for our future security (security in this case being and/or meaning, secure in our liberties and freedoms)…”.
I wish someone would ask the French Minister his opinion of the terrorists who bombed the Rainbow Warrior, who are now living freely in France. If someone set up a site condoning their actions, would it be blocked like this?
“building on the unprecedented public response to the Paris attacks and the mobilization of civil society.” Taken from the linked EU report.
“Do you understand the words that are coming out of my mouth” or to turn it around a little “do they understand the words that are coming out of their mouths.”…sorry Jackie Chan.
Not surprisingly, the EU is using the people’s response to the attack on “Free Speech” with the Charlie Hebdo massacre to accelerate their own attack on “Free Speech”
Further on in the EU report it talks about using de-radicalization techniques in prison and also as an alternative for prison. Hmmm. Remind you of something not too long ago(hint…re-education camps)? Makes one(me) wonder if, perhaps The Patriot Act had already been planned and 9/11 came along at just the right moment to allow(infer demand) its implementation. How many slippery slopes do we have to slide down before we hit bottom? I know, don’t ever say “it couldn’t get much worse”. It sure SEEMS like governments invariably misread the public’s intent whenever they finally do rise up united and speak with one voice. Either that or they just wait for an excuse to enact more stifling and restrictive laws just to tighten their control. In that same EU report there was a reference to getting social media companies to report any postings that break their “terms and conditions” to the government. In effect that turns ISPs and social media sites into an arm of the law. Speak up people before it’s illegal and reportable. Maybe it is already.
Sorry, JGreen, It wasn’t Jackie who said that, it was Chris Tucker.
And let’s not forget that leaving the censorship up to the corporations should not fill anyone of us with happy thoughts. As has been pointed out by others, it is not entirely clear that it is the government who is in control here, that perhaps the corporations are master rather than the other way around. If so, then a more trenchant analysis is required and different solutions otherwise Grover Norquist’s dream will come true but nothing changes.
Actually they both said it in different movies. Chris said it in Rush Hour and Jackie in Rush Hour 2. I had to go look it up. Good point about who is really in control. Thanks for the rethink.
Hierarchy is coercion for the purpose of theft. It does not matter whether the hierarchy under consideration is financial, religious, or political in scope. It will always trend toward stealing everything, and dribbling back just enough filthy water and sickening food to keep the baby slaves coming. One crucial element ties them all together: the ability to enforce centralized control over an essential resource. You want to bring them all down? Invent a solar panel that makes oil irrelevant. Until then the trend will continue, and anything that tends to undermine central control of energy (like a free and open internet) will be co-opted or destroyed.
The NYT is shocked — SHOCKED! — that Benjamin Netanyahu doesn’t support a 2-state solution and would make nakedly racist appeals (to a racist electorate) to win an election. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/18/opinion/an-israeli-election-turns-ugly.html?_r=0
It is good for the pro-Palestinian movement, as well as for BDS, that Bibi won. What he is (always has been; it’s just now publicly admitted), and who he represents in “the only democracy,” is a huge problem for hasbara-ists everywhere, including on campus and online.
Zionists rants that BDS is evil because it doesn’t support a 2-state solution, well neither does Israel’s PM and much if not most of Israel’s Zionist voters. Doesn’t leave the anti-BDS folks too much room now for rhetorical maneuver.
Good.
Is there such a thing as a legitimate election within the Israeli State?
Is there such a thing in the United States given that Israeli Zionist Pacs appear to control a large percentage of our politicians as well as the major media outlets, all the corporations, and act as agents for the International Central Banking Cartel?
In my opinion Netanyahu is deplorable and his Zionist Likud politician thugs should get the hell out the United States.
There is something to be said for the strategy that you have outlined in your comment. This could possibly work in the favor of the opposition forces provided that his evil and deranged state of mind does not prompt nation state nuclear options before it plays out.
“Doesn’t leave the anti-BDS folks too much room now for rhetorical maneuver.” Your point is valid only if the opponents are bound by such slippery chains as truth and justice. Since those ties have long fallen, they can continue using their rhetorical efforts as before and those predisposed to accept their position will go along as they always have.
Your point is well-taken. Already on Twitter we’re seeing: “Bibi didn’t mean it and he’ll retract.” “Heat of the campaign.” “He’ll calm down and want to negotiate for peace.”
But fact is, he said what he said, including a nakedly racist appeal, similar to Mississippi whites c. 1950: “The Negroes are voting!” That’s good ammo.
“It is difficult to see how Mr. Netanyahu could find enough common ground with any moderate faction to govern constructively.” – From the NYT article.
It’s apparent that almost no industrialized/militarized nation that creates and/or benefits from the current The Sky is Falling™ terror paradigm has the wherewithal to govern constructively anymore – certainly not in the United States; this due especially to its heavy corporate and/or billionaire ideologue subsidized lawmakers who claim to represent hundreds of millions of average Americans, yet in practice represent – literally – only hundreds of thousands of people, many of them not even American citizens (hey, Bibi).
In other words, that wasn’t an elected body that Bibi was addressing at the US Capitol (even had more Democrats and, to a lesser extent, Republicans attended) it was just another share holders meeting.
Which brings us to the second leg of the three-legged stool of corruption that reinforces this dysfunctional dynamic worldwide: the revolving-door capability of elected and appointed officials to directly benefit from public service in order to secure a more lucrative private position once they’ve “left” their public-servant post – be it due to breaking laws (despite the breaking of which placing others into financial and emotional ruin, not to mention prison) as Mr. Patraeus so artfully showed recently – to the incredible case of the bumbling Tony Blair – the Bush-sycophant that went from the thoughtless boy-wonder of western warmongering to a very highly paid, religiously converted “private peace protagonist,” (whatever that is); all while Tony basks humbly in the sickening idolatry of Henry Kissinger to bolster his resolve when his mere mortal and now (fabricated for marketing purposes) pious fortitude wanes.
And that’s not counting the many, less well paid or connected that have already thumbed their nose at being constrained at all by self-governance or the rule of law: former public servants. From NSA staff to Army officers to city police to banking regulators; thousands have opted for the greater short-term personal security of fear-mongering and war-profiteering over the much less lucrative career path of serving those you hired with your votes.
These rats are not only abandoning the all-to-many and ever increasing sinking ships of self-governance in favor of self-aggrandizement; some, like former PayPal co-founder and billionaire Peter Thiel, would actually like to scuttle these now-floundering societies altogether. In a nakedly Ayn Randian and wholly misguided quest for the betterment of the individual (themselves) at the expense of the rest of us citizens, Theil, and other like-minded quasi-libertarians want “to establish permanent, autonomous ocean communities to enable experimentation and innovation with diverse social, political, and legal systems” via an entity called “The Seasteading Institute.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasteading
Does this idea seem familiar? It should. L. Ron Hubbard began his grand philanthropic enterprise with much the same, selfless notion in the 1960’s known as “Sea Org.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Org
While not entirely similar, the underlying premise for all of these public servant (as well as Theil’s and Hubbard’s) exodus from the trappings and accountability of a democratic process seems to be much the same: that of creating a society that benefits them and those they espouse at the expense of the rest of humanity.
Well, that, and to dodge their current societies taxes, rules and regulations (the ones they haven’t already written the laws to change); laws which are oh, so onerous that it’s a wonder they even have enough resources left over after taxes for a pot to piss in, never mind being able to afford staff to empty it for them. Better hit up both Social Security and Medicare to address these concerns, hmm?
In the end, government and corporate “partnerships” have been screwing the average earthly citizen at an ever increasing tempo; and in the case of the Peter Theil’s of this world, they’re actually trying, like the fearful island inhabitants in The Lord of the Flies, to maroon us all on the shores of the societies that they’ve squandered, abused, and taken advantage of; not because it’s the right thing to do, even by their self-centered standards – but because it’s the absolute last thing they can do and still get away with it scott-free.
Which brings us to the third leg of that wobbly stool of self-governance: informed public participation. Until we get control of our electors and the laws they are supposed to create on the average citizens behalf, these rouge public servants, and the moneyed interests which purchased them and to which they run to will continue to control our societies on their behalf – not ours.
“The world, that understandable and lawful world, was slipping away.” – William Golding, Lord of the Flies
Note to self: tl;dr and overly alliterative. Nah…spot on. Lather, rinse, repeat.
“It is difficult to see how Mr. Netanyahu could find enough common ground with any moderate faction to govern constructively.” – From the NYT article.
It’s apparent that almost no industrialized/militarized nation that creates and/or benefits from the current The Sky is Falling™ terror paradigm has the wherewithal to govern constructively anymore – certainly not in the United States; this due especially to its heavy corporate and/or billionaire ideologue subsidized lawmakers who claim to represent hundreds of millions of average Americans, yet in practice represent – literally – only hundreds of thousands of people, many of them not even American citizens (hey, Bibi).
In other words, that wasn’t an elected body that Bibi was addressing at the US Capitol (even had more Democrats and, to a lesser extent, Republicans attended); it was just another share holders meeting.
Which brings us to the second leg of the three-legged stool of corruption that reinforces this dysfunctional dynamic worldwide: the revolving-door capability of elected and appointed officials to directly benefit from public service in order to secure a more lucrative private position once they’ve “left” their public-servant post – be it due to breaking laws (despite the breaking of which placing others into financial and emotional ruin, not to mention prison) as Mr. Patraeus so artfully showed recently – to the incredible case of the bumbling Tony Blair: the Bush-sycophant that went from the thoughtless boy-wonder of western warmongering to a very highly paid, religiously converted “private peace protagonist,” (whatever that is); all while Tony basks humbly in the sickening idolatry of Henry Kissinger to bolster his resolve when his mere mortal and now (fabricated for marketing purposes) pious fortitude wanes.
And that’s not counting the many, less well paid or connected that have already thumbed their nose at being constrained at all by self-governance or the rule of law: former public servants. From NSA staff to Army officers to city police to banking regulators; thousands have opted for the greater short-term personal security of fear-mongering and war-profiteering over the much less lucrative career path of serving those you hired with your votes.
These rats are not only abandoning the ever increasing flotilla of sinking ships of self-governance in favor of self-aggrandizement; some, like former PayPal co-founder and billionaire Peter Thiel, would actually like to scuttle these now-floundering societies altogether. In a nakedly Ayn Randian and wholly misguided quest for the betterment of the individual (themselves) at the expense of the rest of us citizens, Theil, and other like-minded quasi-libertarians, want “to establish permanent, autonomous ocean communities to enable experimentation and innovation with diverse social, political, and legal systems” via an entity called “The Seasteading Institute.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasteading
Does this idea seem familiar? It should. L. Ron Hubbard began his grand philanthropic enterprise with much the same, selfless notion in the 1960’s known as “Sea Org.” It’s been a boon to the collective human experience ever since. *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Org
While not entirely similar, the underlying premise for all of these public servant (as well as Theil’s and Hubbard’s) exodus from the trappings and accountability of a democratic process seems to be much the same: that of creating a society that benefits them and those they espouse at the expense of the rest of humanity.
Well, that, and to dodge their current societies taxes, rules and regulations (the ones they haven’t already written laws to change); laws which are oh, so onerous that it’s a wonder they even have enough resources left over after taxes for a pot to piss in, never mind being able to afford staff to empty that piss-pot for them. Better hit up both Social Security and Medicare to address these concerns, hmm?
In the end, government and corporate “partnerships” have been screwing the average earthly citizen at an ever increasing tempo; and in the case of the Peter Theil’s of this world, they’re actually trying, like the fearful island inhabitants in The Lord of the Flies, to maroon us all on the shores of the societies that they’ve squandered, abused, and taken advantage of; not because it’s the right thing to do, even by their self-centered standards – but because it’s the absolute last thing they can do and still get away with scott-free.
Which brings us to the third leg of that wobbly stool of self-governance: informed public participation. Until we get control of our electors and the laws they are supposed to create on behalf of the average citizens, these rouge public servants, and the moneyed interests which purchased them and to which they are beholding will continue to control our societies on their behalf – not ours.
“The world, that understandable and lawful world, was slipping away.” – William Golding, Lord of the Flies
Applause!
You might be interested in reviewing the historical background of the International Central Banking Cartel (Rothschild funding) of the corporate totalitarian government which have clearly described in your comment.
It is a long film but I suspect that you will be interested.
“JFK to 911 Everything Is A Rich Man’s Trick”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1Qt6a-vaNM#t=343
“Until we get control of our electors and the laws they are supposed to create on behalf of the average citizens, these rouge public servants, and the moneyed interests which purchased them and to which they are beholding will continue to control our societies on their behalf – not ours.”
“Applause!…You might be interested in reviewing the historical background of the International Central Banking Cartel…” – Lyra (1?)
Thanks for the cheer and the info – everyone needs those (and a jeer) every now and then around here ;-}
Imagine what mainstream coverage would be like if the governments of certain countries, like Venezuela or Russia, were doing the exact same thing for the same reasons.
Also: It’s not far fetched that at some point you could go to prison for suggesting that, say, Palestinians have as much of a right of self defense as anyone else.
“Hate speech” codes are very Zionist-friendly. Especially if using the EU’s working definition of antisemitism. Some of their examples of “antisemitism”:
With regard to that last one, a former director of Shin Bet, Israel’s FBI, is thereby an antisemite. And with regard to the first, what is one to conclude when a prominent Jewish Zionist like Sheldon Adelson insists Israel is his first love?
“To Learn Who Rules Over You, Notice Who You Cannot Criticize” – Voltaire
Denmark, Finland, France, Ireland, South Africa, Sweden, Norway, New Zealand…all these countries have had censorship laws that prohibited the publication of “hate or violent speech” for years. Since the 19th century in the case of France!
However, citizens of those countries can challenge the laws, or vote for politicians to repeal them. What happens to those who dare challenging censorship laws in China or Iran? You should as Greenwald, he is well familiar with journalist freedom index in China and Iran.
You should ask Greenwald, he is well familiar with journalist freedom index in China and Iran.
It’s sort of fascinating how you don’t mind making an utter moron of yourself in an endless quest for contrived nits to pick. You pooh-pooh objections to locking a woman in a cage for 5 years because on Facebook she approvingly posts articles about Muslims taking up arms, and now you are yammering about how censorship is great for democracies.
Are you an American? Your POV is extremely unusual among educated people in the U.S., tho I greatly doubt you really hold it.
Sorry Mona..Greenwald is great, Greenwals is great, Greenwald is great, Greenwald is great, Greenwald is great.
Do you feel better now?
Oh are you Afghani? I have noticed how happy you are some of them can finally go to school.
And endless non sequiturs.
You are approaching crapflooding. Better keep on eye on your volume if your thing is random drivel. Excess posting of that is the only thing Greenwald does ban.
So…a country where the people gleefully vote for censorship is OK, because they COULD vote against it\?
Little Mr. Shiklgruber was voted into power in Germany in the 1930s, and appointed Chancellor by the doddering old aristocrat, Hindenberg.
To me, a democracy that votes for unjust laws deserves to die.
So…a country where the people gleefully vote for censorship is OK, because they COULD vote against it\?”
Yes!!! You can get rid of the people who vote for the laws you oppose and have new lawmakers repeal laws you do not support. That is the difference between France and China.
There has never been a significant population of human beings operating under any system remotely like a political democracy, anywhere, anytime. It has Always been a puppet show. This is not a political statement. It’s anthropology. No, Periclean Athens was a horror and a nightmare to all but a few local males with property and slaves.
If we are interested in understanding, we have to drop meaningless buzzwords like democracy and freedom. None of us has ever experienced those things, and our ideas about what democracy and freedom would be like are laughably sketchy and unsupported.
You and I live in Capitalist countries. The basic premise of capitalism is that those with all the wealth deserve to siphon off all the wealth because they are the ones with all the wealth. Henry Ford was not a capitalist; Paris Hilton is a capitalist. Think
This is what happens when one allows moderators to skew opinion on websites…one gets…censorship.
Slavery, anti abortion laws, anti gay laws, not allowing women to vote…all were LEGAL within the last 200 years. Censorship has always been used by the powerful. It should be declared illegal.
Alpo Brand u stil trawlin hear? Manee thymes i advice yew teh Lourd madd width yew an deecree u stifle uself don u no. He lifft ur skert an sea yew neighing an trawlin whordumb
Ghet thee beehind me Alpo Brand!
Alpo Brand.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA…HOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHO…HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!
fucking priceless.
That’s not a black and white distinction. It’s arguable whether people in western countries actually have political influence. Indeed, scientific studies show that only the 10% wealthiest have actual influence, and any other perceived influence by the general population is an illusion brought about by their agreement with the top 10%.
Additionally, people in Iran and China do vote. The president of Iran is elected, and for that matter, so are the presidents of Russia and Venezuela.
Seriously, I believe the main difference you perceive is a result of better propaganda.
The president of the United States of America is also “elected”!
Jeb or Hillary. Your “choice”.
It’s not far fetched that in the not-so-distant future, you could get jail time for nothing more than, say, suggesting that Palestinians also have a right of self defense like anyone else.
“If someone argues that continuous Western violence and interference in the Muslim world for decades justifies violence being returned to the West, or even advocates that governments arm various insurgents considered by some to be “terrorists,” such speech could easily be viewed as constituting a crime.”
Don’t put the cart before the horse here : replace ‘justifies’ with ‘explains’, and it would already be more than enough to get censored, in the eyes of some.
“Let’s briefly note the futility of the French efforts […].”
There are at least three more arguments I can think of :
1/ Censoring these sites will further drive their authors underground. Are the French police/intel community ready for that ? In January, they didn’t seem to be : the Kouachi brothers’ radicalization did not occur through the internet. Even the MSM admit that.
2/ http://www.metronews.fr/info/livre-pronant-le-djihad-une-polemique-mais-pas-d-interdiction/mngC!5qMgn5bs5Od2/
In August 2014, a controversy arose about a book whose author was advocating jihad. Pressed by various right-wing parties to explain why he didn’t deem it necessary to ban the book, the very same French Interior minister who’s now tightening the screws stated it couldn’t be banned for merely advocating jihad, since advocating jihad did not constitute an “apology of terrorism”.
Only four months later would the perimeter of the French anti-terrorism law be broadened, but one struggles to explain why Cazeneuve’s statement would suddenly have become irrelevant, even after the Paris attacks. Is there any conceptual difference between online, print-press and literary jihad-supporters, and will the government treat them any differently, in a country that waited until last year to bring the VAT owed by newspapers (2.1 %) and that owed by online papers (20 %) in line ?
3/ The Koran itself lays out the various forms of jihads (spiritual, armed). Knowing this, how will the new policy set forth by the French Interior ministry manage to even create an illusion of coherence ? There’s no doubt at least some members of the French far right will jump at the opportunity to follow the “example” provided by their Dutch counterpart, both being part of the same political fraction in the European Parliament.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8McIz0ejukg
Said party remains first in the polls for the upcoming Dutch federal elections. Of course, we all know how these polls go, how extremely volatile the electorate has become, and how influential the mass media can prove to be in the last straight line, but nevertheless, it’s setting some kind of mood…
https://www.noties.nl/peil.nl/
Glenn could not be more right and this piece is very important. These new laws are not about terrorism, but about internet control and they are heavily interlaced with our contemporary obsession with copyright. (I recently had a two minute clip from season one of “Not Going Out” – which was actually a very funny compilation of two one minute scenes involving a Great Dane. The craziness of this is that the excerpts would act as great advertising for a very funny British show should they wish to air it in the USA.) You’d wonder sometimes how we ever ended up with library systems in countries – and, in all honesty, I worry about their future anyway.
Ireland also is introducing such anti-terror legislation in a matter of just a few weeks (http://www.thejournal.ie/anti-terrorism-laws-ireland-1891477-Jan2015/) at a time which is arguably a period in which terrorism is actually at its lowest for the last 100 years.
But these things are never really about terrorism – or at the very least, how they end up.
I met a fellow once who’d been held without access to a lawyer under the 1972 Offenses Against the State Act Amendment – the crime? Vandalism. Burning out an old automobile, to be specific. He claimed he hadn’t done it but admitted (to me, at least) that he knew the fella who did.
You certainly remember Tamera Jo Freeman. She was charged under the Patriot Act when she got mad at her children for spilling her tomato juice in her lap and slapped them on the thighs; this lead to a confrontation with a stewardess who stuck her nose in and Tamera’s form of addressing her (which I think amounted to “Fuck off” or some such). She was arrested under the terrorist act, charged, and convicted – and then lost custody of her own children. I can think of little that is more insane or, ironically, more of a terrorist act than that by the government in that case.
Jonathan Turley wrote about it here:
http://jonathanturley.org/2009/01/21/mother-declared-terrorist-threat-for-spanking-children-on-airplane/
The thing is, if every terrorist (so-called) on the planet disappeared tomorrow, those laws would remain. Much like NATO remained after the end of the Cold War. Like the Mafia remained in Sicily after forming initially to protect the peasants.
The great and at this stage somewhat quaint experiment post renaissance involving liberty, freedom, and all nice things included in the rationality characterized by thinking about the rights of man is now a rapidly fading memory. Oh, sure, there’s enough residual force in the momentum of history so that some of us can get a little justice now and then, but by and large, forget it. Like Simon Johnson told Bill Moyers years ago, Romans believed they lived in a republic for 400 years after it had been replaced by a dictatorship. I think that about nails where we are.
Terrorism. Terrorism is scarier.
Look back at 9/11 video and photos. Or 7/7 photos.
Yes there is an insidious evil about governments ignoring free speech and free association by preventing people from seeing websites, even if those websites only encourage hate and violent action. But on balance, if you had a choice between avoiding 9/11 and having access to a hate site, you chose the former. I recognize it is a false choice to the extent that they are exclusive alternatives, but nothing is worse than what happened 9/11. Nothing. So what would you do to avoid another?
Et où est Charlie?
Something scarier than “Terrorism, or Governments Blocking Websites in its Name”:
Private companies, which are monopolies, often asserting they are defending freedom, taking down accounts based on whatever they don’t like – usually “terrorism” becomes anti-abuse, some anti-hate policies, “offensive” (remembering Charlie Hebdo v.s. Glenn’s post), etc.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2015/03/12/why-some-people-are-so-terrified-of-a-google-truth-machine/ – truth is whatever Google’s python (something about subtle serpents in the garden of eden making suggestions comes to mind) scripts says is true.
Twitter is now looking for “abuse against women”, not abuse in general.
Facebook has redefined what they consider offensive. And apparently transvestites don’t have to use their real name. Regular people do.
Data and Goliath, in another form.
As the article noted, Google’s “truth” algorithms might be suitable for a simple truth proposition in the form of “subject, predicate, object” i.e. simple verifiable demonstrable “truth”. X is a citizen of Y nation.
It is going to have a lot more difficulty, and is quite a long way from algorithms that can detect or score that which is “justified belief” i.e. epistemological “truth” vs. unjustified beliefs or opinions.
This will be particularly true in matters of disputed science where absolute certainty is largely unobtainable as an epistemological matter and as a function of the scientific method. Or political economy, or morality, or ethics . . . .
Which is not to say, and the article certainly indicated that algorithms can produce rankings based on the probability of “truth”fulness depending upon, of course, established reliability of certain sources (i.e. purveyors of medical information) bounded only by the current limits of the underlying scientific or epistemological (un)certainty on any particular topic. In other words if someone searches for some “truth” on best methods for treating diabetes the algorithm could produce more or higher ranked results emanating from reliable medical sources as opposed to homeopathy. But again it would have to be recognized that such algorithms are inherently biased (as they should be in my opinion though not everyone’s) toward medical science and its conclusions and methods and subject to the limitations of the application of the scientific method to “facts” and the relative (un)certainty or probability of forming “justified beliefs” on its conclusions.
I don’t see anything inherently problematic with what Google is doing so long as they disclose their “truth” algorithms so that they can be scrutinized.
-”It is going to have a lot more difficulty, and is quite a long way from algorithms that can detect or score that which is “justified belief” i.e. epistemological “truth” vs. unjustified beliefs or opinions. ”
Google and the NSA don’t need epistemology. The tactics that programmers use to sort websites for their truth quotient, is the same that governments would use to sort citizens for their terror quotient.
In the context of finding potential terrorists among the population for example, the French government, and the NSA, will settle for a fuzzy logic sorting of their citizens into a ranking from “least likely” to “most likely” probably using something like IBM’s “DeepQA” The software can take massive amounts of unstructured input, such as everyone’s tweets and facebook posts and emails, and measured against multiple criteria, output the most likely terrorists (according to the given criteria). The power of the system rests on having MASSIVE unstructured data to work with.
“The DeepQA hypothesis is that by complementing classic knowledge-based approaches with recent advances in NLP, Information Retrieval, and Machine Learning to interpret and reason over huge volumes of widely accessible naturally encoded knowledge (or “unstructured knowledge”) we can build effective and adaptable open-domain QA systems. While they may not be able to formally prove an answer is correct in purely logical terms, they can build confidence based on a combination of reasoning methods that operate directly on a combination of the raw natural language, automatically extracted entities, relations and available structured and semi-structured knowledge available from for example the Semantic Web.”
http://blogs.plos.org/retort/2011/02/14/how-ibm%E2%80%99s-watson-computer-will-excel-at-jeopardy/
Here’s my issue: can “censorship” ever be “perfected”? Assuming it is possible to algorithmically detect language combinations (or photos) that meets the criteria of “that [which] provokes terrorist acts or condones terrorism publicly” don’t you have a “definitional” problem that prevents generating an effective algorithm?
What distinguishes a “terrorist act” from a “crime”?
What level of “but-for” causation must be speculated, proved or defined such that one could create an algorithm that detects “that which provokes”?
What is the definition of “provokes” i.e. is to “provoke” to “cause to act”?
What is to “condone” terrorism?
And what is to “condone it publically”?
As difficult as it is to imagine creating an algorithm that can actually be narrowly focused enough capture that which actually “provokes” or “condones” how can that possibly be translated to images? Will it be “publically condoning” terrorism to reproduce photos of terrorist acts or their aftermath on its victims? How will such photos be distinguishable from photos of crimes and their aftermath on its victims?
Moreover, if “censorship” can be algorithmically perfected, how would anyone know that any particular content is being censored on the internet absent The French Red Hand or something similar? Presumably in such a world, only the person(s) producing the content would know they are being censored when they are unable to access their own content as published on the internet and people generally would only know if those original content producers could publicize that they are being censored. Which of course creates a corollary for ‘perfected censorship” in that the censors will have to pass laws that permit the state to censor any content that points out the regime of censorship, otherwise such censorship regime will ultimately be ineffective as those interested in the content will simply find another way for it to be passed from the originator to the consumer whether over the internet, in hard copy, on a disc or by whatever medium is convenient.
In any event, any regime of censorship becomes known and will be self-defeating. Pretty soon no one will trust anything whatsoever that comes from government sources as everyone will presume it is propaganda and that any dissenting or contrary point of view is being censored by the government.
Seems to me such an endeavor as being undertaken by the French and others is both technologically infeasible without being radically overbroad, arbitrary and subjective and even if technologically feasible and not overbroad, arbitrary and subjective–by definition–then totally counterproductive to the state’s aims. It will only drive those who seek to “provoke” or “condone” “terrorist acts” (however those are ultimately defined) underground or resort to methods that are immune to state detection. And then the state will have to criminalize the mere possession of such materials, and that’s when the wheels will really come off. Criminalizing the possession of “child pornography” is one thing because apparently some people know it when they see it and most people would agree. But when it comes to trying to define or delimit what is to “provoke” or “condone” and what is a doing either in relation to a “terrorist act” is a whole other kettle of fish.
Orwellian in the extreme, but I agree with Glenn I think the effort will ultimately be futile.
By their own words, the American and Canadian governments are guilty of advocating and abetting terrorism, every time they supply arms and troops to various “rebel factions” or “freedom fighters” in various regimes they are actively working to interfere with.
That’s easy. Terrorism. Especially Muslim terrorism, which murders infinitely more innocents than some imagined “scary government.”
Not to mention that your entire line of “reasoning” (let’s be charitable and use this term) since Charlie Hebdo Islamofascist murder is nothing but a willful misrepresentation of French legal system – your incessant babbling about “lack of free speech” in France and some supposed “hypocrisy” – as if drawing a 7th century murderous non-prophet is the same as inciting murder of innocents who drew it, not to mention Jews; in France, it is not – is aimed at your uneducated audience, who are probably woefully misinformed about the differences with the USA.
“the concepts of “extremism” and “racializing” (like “terrorism” itself) are incredibly vague and elastic”
I supposed you wanted to say “radicalizing”. But when your whole shtick is inventing racial animus where there isn’t any, no wonder you make this sort of supremely revealing mistakes. Laughable.
“No judge reviews the Interior Ministry’s decisions.” Glenn Greenwald
Yes, a review from a judge would have made the decisions acceptable or at least fair according to Greenwald. Or would it?
“Khan will now spend the next five years in prison because a very white, very British, very establishment-loyal jurist harbors contempt for her political views, her religious values, and particularly her attempts to teach them to her children.” Glenn Greenwald, January 6th, 2015
What happened? As usual. judicial decisions become unfair when they do not match Greenwald’s beliefs. Of course, Greenwald did not elaborate on her “political views” and “religious values”, which consist of promoting the use of children in the “holy war”. The judicial system should wait until children are in the battle field to react. That would be the most efficient solution.
“Let’s briefly note the futility of the French efforts: in the way that censorship efforts fail generally and are particularly doomed to failure in the Internet era. I’m currently in Germany..” Glenn Greenwald
Yes, Germany is the perfect example where censorship against Nazism has failed miserably. Even with the toughest censorship laws, Germany has the strongest far right and Neo-Nazi parties in Europe, it is also the less diverse country in Europe and it is the most dangerous country in Europe for non white and Jews!!
“Beyond the technical issues, trying to legislate ideas out of existence is a fool’s game: those sufficiently determined will always find ways to make themselves heard” Glenn Greenwald
That is why it is stupid to make it hard on them to recruit teenagers online for their holy war in Syria or Iraq. Actually any legislation is foolish!! Why pass tough financial regulations? Bankers sufficiently determined will always find ways to enrich themselves at the expense of their clients. Why pass tough drinking and driving laws? Party goers sufficiently determined will always find ways to get drunk and drive with complete disregard to other motorists. Let’s just forget about laws!!
“Isn’t the exercise of this website-blocking power what has long been cited as reasons we should regard the Bad Countries – such as China and Iran – as tyrannies (which also usually cite “counter-terrorism” to justify their censorship efforts)?” Glenn Greenwald
Definitely!! Moreover, in those countries, China and Iran, the people may vote for different candidates, different parties so they can have censorship laws repealed. That is completely different in France where only one political party is allowed and the USA where the Ayatollah, the Great Leader has the final word on whom the people should choose to enact or change laws.
You must be Betty White’s alter ego with dementia, trolling for a fight.
Not a fight! I challenge you to a duel. Meet at 12:00 hrs at the Eiffel Tower. The winner takes all!
“I challenge you to a duel.”
Lets have at it then, you pathetic pus exuding piece of shite!
Taunting French Guard (Character)
from Monty Python and the Holy Grail (1975)
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Monty Python and the Holy Grail (1975)
French Soldier: I don’t want to talk to you no more, you empty-headed animal food trough wiper! I fart in your general direction! Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries!
Sir Galahad: Is there someone else up there we can talk to?
French Soldier: No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
French Soldier: Un cadeau.
Other French soldiers: A what?
French Soldier: A present.
Other French soldiers: Oh. Un cadeau. Oui oui.
French Soldier: Allons y!
Other French soldiers: What?
French Soldier: Let’s go!
Other French soldiers: Oh.
French Soldier: You don’t frighten us, English pig dogs. Go and boil your bottoms, you sons of a silly person. I blow my nose at you, so-called “Arthur King,” you and all your silly English K-nig-hts.
King Arthur: Can we come up and have a look?
French Soldier: Of course not. You’re English types.
King Arthur: What are you then?
French Soldier: I’m French. Why do you think I have this outrageous accent, you silly king?
Sir Galahad: What are you doing in England?
French Soldier: Mind your own business.
1st soldier with a keen interest in birds: Am I right?
King Arthur: I’m not interested!
Second Swallow-Savvy Guard: It could be carried by an African swallow.
King Arthur: Will you ask your master if he wants to join my court at Camelot?
1st soldier with a keen interest in birds: Oh yeah, an African swallow, maybe, but not a European swallow. That’s my point.
Second Swallow-Savvy Guard: But then the African swallow’s not migratory…
French Soldier: You don’t frighten us with your silly knees-bent running around advancing behavior!
King Arthur: Go and tell your master that we have been charged by God with a sacred quest. If he will give us food and shelter for the night, he can join us in our quest for the Holy Grail.
French Soldier: Well, I’ll ask him, but I don’t think he will be very keen. Uh, he’s already got one, you see.
King Arthur: What?
Sir Galahad: He said they’ve already got one!
King Arthur: Are you sure he’s got one?
French Soldier: Oh yes, it’s very nice!
http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0091166/quotes
Not this, a real duel in Paris at the Eiffel Tower with the traditional dress and swords.
There are now winners, dear, only little boys (and girls) playing around…
Oops ! One ‘w’ to the trash bin…
He’s just trying to get TI banned in France by advocating violence on French soil.
Clearly a terrorist.
They lie constantly to try to justify their warped ideology.
Or, maybe it’s like a food critic that has only ever eaten fast food?
The ranks of poor souls advocating violence as a solution, not to mention the god awful “to the victor go the spoils” mentality, seems to be at the heart of the problems all around.
It’s a shame evolution works so slowly.
The “trolling” observation is consistent with my opinion tombrowns’ schooledaze’.
This one ( of many that frequent the TI Comment Boards) appears to favor the use of of Items 3 and 12 as outlined in the following article:
“The Troll’s Guide to Internet Disruption”
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2015/02/trolls-guide-internet-disruption.html
” Of course, Greenwald did not elaborate on her “political views” and “religious values”, which consist of promoting the use of children in the “holy war”. ”
Alpo Brand u cant disscuss religular valyews don u no. Teh lourd fourbid trawls speek abut holey stuf. Ur flesh is dong Alpo Brand
That’s not implied, obviously. He’s objecting to the lack of judicial process. If he complains about a particular judicial outcome, that’s hardly a contradiction.
I agree with you here as far as you go, but you’re not responding to his complete argument. He goes on to say that the censorship can also have the opposite of its intended effect. (Do laws against securities fraud backfire in the same way?) So, you have to deal with that.
This is a non sequitur. His point is that we consider countries like “China and Iran” to be “Bad Countries” precisely because they engage in behavior like censorship. You reply as if his point is that, since we do one of the bad things that bad countries do, we’re as bad as they are. But that isn’t implied. His point is simply that we have defined the behavior – censorship – as “bad”.
“He’s objecting to the lack of judicial process.” Barncat
Greenwald has a history of demanding judicial process and criticizes that process whenever the decisions coming out of the judicial process are not in line with his views. In the UK example I provided he is not only complaining about the outcome, but also about the process of having a “white” “British” judge deciding the sentences.
“This is a non sequitur. His point is that we consider countries like “China and Iran” to be “Bad Countries” precisely because they engage in behavior like censorship”
Censorship is not the only and the primary reason why China and Iran are viewed as “Bad Countries”. Greenwald stated he was in Germany, a country with tough censorship laws, yet the Germans challenge their government on a daily basis, they pick their leaders among different parties, women are not legally unequal to men. No reasonable human rights experts would state that Germany is not an advanced democracy. Freedom does have limits. A ten year old is not allowed to vote neither in France nor Germany. Your PRIVATE jet is under government control for obvious reasons.
Barncat in a reply post to that comment from you explained how it is that your comment showed you to be speaking in tongues, making no sense. Barncat also cleanly took apart several other bogus points you tried to put across in that same post in your latest venture of your big plan to show Glenn Greenwald and anyone who reads Glenn Greenwald that Alpha brown it what the world has been waiting for. If the world were to just read Alpha brown every day, they would surely see that Glenn Greenwald is an amateur journalist, and rarely ever writes articles that are logically and factually strong.
As barncat pointed out to you, what Glenn wrote about “no judge reviews” does not in any way, shape, form or universe mean this: “a review from a judge would have made the decisions acceptable or at least fair according to Greenwald. Or would it?” Any honest person with a reading comprehension level above grade F would understand that your reading of what Glenn wrote is abysmally incorrect. So what is your excuse, Alpha brown, for not understanding what you read?
Your argument about Alpha brown “speaking tongue”…repeating barncat’s arguments is way way better than the one he/she presented!
Interesting conversation today: I note that Consortium News, RoberParry’s excellent site is down today after several prescient reports by people like Ray McGovern.
“What’s Scarier: Terrorism, or Governments Blocking Websites in its Name?”
If this is a poll Mr. Greenwald, I would like to reinforce your position that nation state governments cramming “national security measures” against the privacy rights of world citizens on the internet and basically everywhere else that any individual might be physically located; is infinitely “more scary” to me.
If you keep telling them that these measures can not long endure before they themselves suffer the wrath of the world citizens on Earth; maybe it will change.
Many thanks.
BTW On topic:
“When It Becomes Serious, First They Lie–When That Fails, They Arrest You”
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2015/03/becomes-serious-first-lie-fails-arrest.html
“When lying is no longer enough to gain compliance, then the organs of security are unleashed on dissent and resistance.”
France hasn’t blocked the CIA’s website so this is all about political censorship, not terrorism.
One would think that there are those in the power structure who are knowledgeable enough to realize what the effect of such censorship will be, i.e. the “Streisand Effect” so I have to question their motives for attempting to do so.
Let’s not forget that an American citizen was murdered for speech crimes, and his son was murdered for his father’s speech crimes. And the U.S. government blocks/shuts down websites routinely and supposedly has the ability and legal right to hit the “internet kill switch” if ISIS storms the interwebs.
(Edit)
In third to last paragraph “racializing” should be “radicalizing.”
Pfffft. The U.S. Department of Defense has been blocking websites it wanted to censor on their bases for ye…
Oh, yeah.
Yeah….except the United States doesn’t render the courtesy of a big red hand.
Instead they just intercept the sender’s request and voila! —- “Error 404″
Assholes.
Thank you for helping to appropriately label their – efforts. I couldn’t agree more.
Forgot this:
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/08/20/u-s-military-bans-the-intercept/
from link
Why doesn’t the military just ban web use period? It’s not uncommon for people to paste clips from the Intercept (or the Guard, etc) on other site’s comment section. A person could therefore be viewing “potentially classified material” when viewing, say, WaPo or NYT.
I say we all should start posting clips with potentially classified material on every major news outlet site so as to incur the wrath of the censor for the largest traffic sites.
No judges required.
The proposed information law in France is interesting, it delegates to the telcos and Facebook and Google the OBLIGATION to algorithmically identify people whose behaviour, those companies’ software deems suspect. And to inform the government immediately:
“Le projet de loi va plus loin. Dans son article 3, le texte permet aux enquêteurs d’obtenir un «recueil immédiat, sur les réseaux des opérateurs» des données de connexion des suspects. De même, il veut contraindre les intermédiaires à «détecter, par un traitement automatique, une succession suspecte de données de connexion». Les fournisseurs d’accès à Internet, mais aussi aux plates-formes comme Google, Facebook, Apple ou Twitter, pourraient devoir déceler eux-mêmes des comportements suspects, en fonction d’instructions qu’ils auront reçues, et transmettre ces résultats aux enquêteurs. Le texte ne le précise pas, mais il pourrait s’agir de connexions fréquentes sur des pages surveillées.”
http://www.lefigaro.fr/secteur/high-tech/2015/03/17/01007-20150317ARTFIG00008-terrorisme-de-nouvelles-obligations-de-surveillance-pour-les-geants-du-net.php
I know people who would be totally ok with a Huckabee regime blocking website it didn’t like too.
You know, purely on public interest grounds of course.
Liberticide?
It seems the French law was passed in 2011 to defend against paedophilia, but the law was never used for that. Then in 2014 it was expanded to include terrorist web sites. Why? Because 90 percent of terrorists apparently, use the internet, according to France’s minister of the interior:
“Celui-ci a finalement été promulgué, le 4 février. « Aujourd’hui, vous avez 90 % de ceux qui basculent dans des activités terroristes au sein de l’Union européenne qui le font après avoir fréquenté Internet — des sites, des blogs, des vidéos », avait alors argué Bernard Cazeneuve, ministre de l’intérieur. ”
http://www.lemonde.fr/pixels/article/2015/03/16/premier-cas-de-site-bloque-en-france-pour-apologie-du-terrorisme_4594083_4408996.html
This “le Monde” article also points out that the law permits the government to capture the addresses of all citizens visiting sites the politicians have deemed offensive, and the article also mentions that anyone determined to visit these sites could use “TOR” the onion router, to evade this great firewall of France.
So, if someone were to use some official forums or channels for say “calling to arms” such websites won’t be taken down, that would be too inconvenient for whoever is running or using the website.
Taking down websites that someone claims CAN be used to have people calling to arms, is much more convenient for censoring, however then it is imo proven, that such claims has no basis and no merit, other than being some kind of abuse that can’t really be defended by this mere “worry” or “concern” or even the mere “notion” of such a possibility. Obviously, what can be considered “can” have no meaning other than the censoring authority giving itself a censoring privilege, because it can..
What a wrote is a little simple, but if having to rely on simple statements, it become so clear that such simplistic statements tend to appear to offer no substance other than being an excused, provided, to the public. Are such simplistic statements re. “can” something that is reflected in internal debates and documents as well? That would be really dumb I think, as dumb as calling on a nondescript concern for “national security, likely being nothing but a nonsensical excuse.
…of course you could look at the “Great Firewall of China…err…France” as a more merciful alternative to, well…what they’ve been doing:
“French cops grill 8-year-old for ‘glorifying terror’
France is suffering from a “colective hysteria” in the aftermath of the Paris attacks, according to an Islamaphobia watchdog, after it emerged an eight-year-old boy was grilled by police over comments he made at school allegedly praising the terrorists.”
http://www.thelocal.fr/20150129/france-police-pupil-eight-year-old-terrorism
So, if the french are blocking sites which “promote terrorism”
Does that mean they are going to block access to the websites of the congress of the US and the white house??????
The first website to block is that of the CIA which has been terrorizing since the day it was created and whose sole purpose for existence is to terrorize anyone who questions the capitalistic goals of the plutocrats. If the French had the cahoonas to block the CIA I wouldn’t mind them blocking a few others but might as well be wishing for climate change to go away.
Of course if we follow this through logically it would mean
that the French government would have to also block their own websites.
Typo under the NDTV pic: “racializing” should presumably be “radicalizing”.
I wholeheartedly agree with this one. When you set out to design a good society, freedom of expression is the first and most fundamental principle. It is the firmament that divides talk and action, separating and freeing the cosmos of ideas from the sordid political scheming. Whenever and however freedom of expression is breached, it always causes suffering and death. This is true even of the “uncontroversial” forms of censorship: when you ban people from putting child porn on their web servers, it means that you are voluntarily accepting that month in and month out children will be kidnapped and raped, sometimes killed, to support a multibillion dollar black market. Their deaths are the sacrifice to Moloch that good people willingly make so that they don’t have to worry about seeing something disturbing or embarrassing in their spam email. But how much more misery and death will be created by banning discussion of the bases of an ongoing war! To censor jihadist sentiments is to ennoble the most reprehensible. Their ideas, which could never stand on their own, which would be derided in a sea of feces-stained Korans and rude Muhammad cartoons in any open forum, can now be “justified” by saying that the government bans their presentation and that’s why you don’t hear them.
We have seen these things before — there is nothing more salutary for race relations than for twenty Klansmen to turn out for their protest and hear the roar of ten thousand angry critics. When people are denied their right to be wrong, their right to express racist beliefs, such as in the case of the founder of the World Church of the Creator who was denied a law license, what ensues is a violence that sets things far backwards.
My feeling has been that the same totalitarian, spy state laws are routinely proposed in Australia, UK, Canada, and the U.S. (I suppose NZ also, but who follows their political news?) — and Australia is always first to pass them. It’s like the law comes off whatever Five Eyes teletype they have set up and they put a wax seal on it the same day. And the U.S. is always last – I don’t know if that’s because of the Bill of Rights or just because our Congress is so dysfunctional they can’t even do the stuff they’re ordered to do without taking years to do it. The sad truth is though that we can expect the same battle, eventually, and likely with a cleverer concealment.
I think though we might find resistance from an unexpected quarter. Ordinarily I would say it is more than unfortunate that America has Christians who like to quote that Old Testament stuff about stoning homosexuals. But I imagine that the Radical Right is going to have a big problem with any law that conceivably restricts their right to quote the Bible for any purpose, however ignoble.
“and Australia is always first to pass them”
It is done alphabetically!!!
“— and Australia is always first to pass them. It’s like the law comes off whatever Five Eyes teletype they have set up and they put a wax seal on it the same day. And the U.S. is always last – ”
When you are going to market something it is usually a good idea to select a small test group and see how things go and make modifications as necessary before launching to the whole.
They are all in it together.
Australian Governer General, Senator Brandis work can be seen at http://www.attorneygeneral.gov.au/Mediareleases/Pages/default.aspx
especially
5 February 2015—Travel to UK for National Security Meeting
I will visit the United Kingdom from 5–7 February to represent Australia at the Five Country national security ministers’ meeting in London.
To Glenn
“Merde à la puissance treize”
Governer General should be Attorney General
This reminds me of how the elite spam changes in legislations across multiple states in the U.S.
http://www.democracynow.org/topics/alec
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Legislative_Exchange_Council#Notable_policies_and_model_bills
ALEC is famous for such legislation as “stand your ground” which got Trevon Martin killed, and voter id’s which make it more difficult for people of color to vote.
Meanwhile in Australia…people are mocking the attorney general because he hasn’t the slightest clue what his new bill actually does:
Senator Scott Ludlam – Australia’s attorney general George Brandis “adding vast new stores of data to a system that is fundamentally broken”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgeKtbfVrig
…so Australia can’t access the meta data of a journalist, but the government can define “journalist”, and in any case, the journalists’ sources most definitely aren’t journalists, so their data is fair game:
“George Brandis says bloggers won’t be covered by metadata amendments
A further amendment will be moved requiring law enforcement agencies to obtain a warrant to access journalists’ metadata to identify a source.
But Senator Brandis said bloggers would not be covered by the provisions.
“I wouldn’t regard bloggers as journalists,” Senator Brandis told ABC radio.
“A journalist is for the purposes of this law a person engaged in the profession of journalism.”
http://www.news.com.au/technology/online/george-brandis-says-bloggers-wont-be-covered-by-metadata-amendments/story-fnjwmwrh-1227265718133
This is too funny, George Brandis in 2014 trying to explain something computer related:
smh.com.au – “It’s been called “excruciating” and “the most embarrassing interview you’ll ever be likely to see”.
Attorney-General George Brandis struggled to explain live on Sky News on Wednesday afternoon the details of his government’s controversial “data retention” policy, which would force all telcos to keep logs on what their customers do on the phone and online for up to two years, so law enforcement agencies could access the information without a warrant when investigating crime.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbtgULCY5zk
When THEY do it, it’s reprehensible, government censorship, and a violation of basic human rights and freedoms. When WE do it, it’s justifiable, a measured and reasoned response to behavior that threatens basic human rights and freedoms.
Wikipedia : “Radicalization (or radicalisation) is a process by which an individual or group comes to adopt increasingly extreme political, social, or religious ideals and aspirations that (1) reject or undermine the status quo[1] or (2) reject and/or undermine contemporary ideas and expressions of freedom of choice. For example, radicalism can originate from a broad social consensus against progressive changes in society. Radicalization can be both violent and nonviolent, although most academic literature focuses on radicalization into violent extremism (RVE).[2]”
I’ve been hearing the use of the terms radicalization, radicalized, radical etc in the media much recently. Obviously it is shorthand for something bad, something violent, something Muslim. But being as it remains undefined by government and law, it clears the way for governments to arbitrarily take action against their interpretation of what is “radical”.
“’Radicalization’ – A Buzzword Singling out Muslims?
Is it tenable to define the concept of radicalisation in a way that encompasses, say, European Muslims who join Islamic State and other Sunni takfiri movements, yet excludes, say, European Jews who join the Israeli military?”
http://www.telesurtv.net/english/opinion/Radicalization—A-Buzzword-Singling-out-Muslims-20150314-0004.html
Actually, the term “radicalization” is clearly defined by the government, as “…the process by which individuals come to believe that their engagement in or facilitation of nonstate violence to achieve social and political change is necessary and justified.” Source: https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/02/09/government-develops-questionnaire-see-might-become-terrorist/