As I was close to finishing my own story, The New York Times published a long article last night about the rather intense and fascinating controversy that has erupted inside PEN America, the group long devoted to defending writers’ freedom of expression from attacks by governments. In essence, numerous prominent writers who were to serve as “table heads,” or who are longtime PEN members, have withdrawn from the group’s annual awards gala and otherwise expressed anger over PEN’s decision to bestow its annual Freedom of Expression Courage Award to Charlie Hebdo.
The Times story does a good job laying out the events and describing the general controversy, so in lieu of repeating that, I instead want to publish the key correspondence between the writer Deborah Eisenberg and PEN’s Executive Director, former Obama State Department official and Amnesty USA Executive Director Suzanne Nossel, which sparked the controversy; post the full comment given to The Intercept by the writer Teju Cole, who has withdrawn as a table head; and make a few observations of my own. The Intercept has also submitted several questions to Nossel, which I’m also posting, and will prominently post PEN’s responses as soon as they are received. All of those documents are here.
Though the core documents are lengthy, this argument is really worth following because it highlights how ideals of free speech, and the Charlie Hebdo attack itself, were crassly exploited by governments around the world to promote all sorts of agendas having nothing to do with free expression. Indeed, some of the most repressive regimes on the planet sent officials to participate in the Paris “Free Speech” rally, and France itself began almost immediately arresting and prosecuting people for expressing unpopular, verboten political viewpoints and then undertaking a series of official censorship acts, including the blocking of websites disliked by its government. The French government perpetrated these acts of censorship, and continues to do so, with almost no objections from those who flamboyantly paraded around as free speech fanatics during Charlie Hebdo Week.
Under the guise of the “War on Terror,” there has indeed been a systematic assault on free speech: though it’s been one waged by Western governments primarily against their Muslim citizens. For that reason, it has provoked almost no objections from those who dressed up as free speech crusaders that week. That’s because, as I wrote in the aftermath of that rally, the incident was used to manipulatively exploit, not celebrate and protect, free expression. Celebrating Charlie Hebdo was largely about glorifying anti-Muslim sentiment; free expression was the pretext.
This is all quite redolent of how the U.S. government and its acolytes quite adeptly exploit social issues to advance imperial aims. U.S. officials, for instance, gin up anger toward Putin or Iran by highlighting the maltreatment of those countries’ LGBT citizens — as though that’s why the U.S. government is hostile — while at the same time showering arms and money on allied regimes in Saudi Arabia and Egypt whose treatment of gays is at least as bad (while LGBT groups in the U.S. say nothing because those are Obama’s policies). Or American and British officials will denounce free press attacks by governments they want to demonize while cozying up to regimes that allow no press freedoms at all. It’s also similar to how neocons tried to persuade feminists to support the war in Afghanistan because the Taliban is heinous to women or justified the invasions of Iraq because Saddam violated human rights — at the very same time that the regimes neocons love the most are at least as bad if not worse on those issues (to say nothing of the human rights records of neocons themselves and the U.S. government).
This is now a common, and quite potent, tactic: inducing support for highly illiberal Western government policy by dressing it up as support for liberal principles. And it highlights the fraud of pretending that celebrations of Charlie Hebdo cartoonists are independent of the fact that the particular group they most prominently mock are Muslims, a marginalized, targeted, and largely powerless group in France and the West generally.
As I wrote after the Paris rally, it is simply inconceivable that Charlie Hebdo would have been depicted as heroes had their primary targets been groups more favored and powerful in the West (indeed, a Charlie Hebdo cartoonist was fired by the magazine in 2009 for mocking Judaism: where were all the newfound free speech crusaders then?). As the objecting PEN writers note, one can regard the murders of the Charle Hebdo cartoonists as repugnant, vile and dangerous (as any decent person does) while simultaneously scorning the Muslim-bashing focus of their “satire.”
What, pray tell, is remotely admirable about sitting in the West — which has been invading, bombing, and otherwise dominating Muslim countries around the world for decades, and has spent the last decade depicting Islam as the Gravest Threat — and echoing that prevailing sentiment by bashing Muslims? Nothing is easier than mocking and maligning the group in your society most marginalized and oppressed. People in the West have their careers destroyed when they’re accused of sympathizing with Islam, not for opposing it. Bashing Muslims and Islam is orthodoxy in the West, both on the level of official policy and political culture.
The controversy provoked by the PEN writers raises an ancillary though important issue: the role played by former Obama officials in human rights and other organizations designed to function as adversaries to the government. Human Rights Watch has come under fire because key officials served in the U.S. State Department and critics claim the group thus echoes the U.S. government line. NYU students are currently protesting the appointment to the faculty of former Yale Law School dean Harold Koh, who as a legal adviser in Obama’s State Department acted as an advocate of drone killings and Obama’s right to wage war in Libya in the face of a Congressional vote against that war. And now PEN is led by Nossel, a former Obama State Department official who faced serious criticisms after she left for using Amnesty USA’s credibility to advance Obama’s foreign policy.
Nobody suggests that working as an official of the U.S. government should be permanently disqualifying. But there have to be groups that act as genuine adversaries to the most powerful government on the planet — especially ones claiming to be human rights organizations or those who oppose state censorship — and when those groups are led by the very people who defended and implemented the policies of that government, those groups’ credibility to act in that capacity is seriously compromised. That’s how supposedly dissident groups become co-opted and converted into the opposite of what they claim. The writer Wallace Shawn, who is a member of PEN and protests the Charlie Hebdo award, told me:
The “boards” of every non-profit organization, university, theatre, etc., no matter what the organization’s original goals were, are made up of the same tiny group of people, and they choose the organization’s leaders, presidents, artistic directors on the basis that those individuals would be good at “fund-raising,” i.e. getting money out of a few more people from that same group……Then even the once serious people in the organization begin to internalize the in-born belief of the corporate-minded board members that the most important thing for the organization is to grow, raise more money, get more members………..the trend points in the same direction for every organization…….. (ellipses in original)
Whatever else is true, PEN America has always existed to defend unorthodox and marginalized views from attack, and there is absolutely nothing unorthodox or marginalized in the West about the views expressed by Charlie Hebdo cartoonists or in showering them with courage awards. As Eisenberg put it in her original letter, the Charlie Hebdo award appears to be “an opportunistic exploitation of the horrible murders in Paris to justify and glorify offensive material expressing anti-Islamic and nationalistic sentiments already widely shared in the Western world.”
The letters and other documents giving rise to this controversy, which I really encourage you to read, can be found here.
Photo of world leaders and dignitaries attend a mass unity rally following the recent Paris terrorist attacks on January 11, 2015 in Paris, France (Dan Kitwood/Getty Images)


Publisher! Your editor, Glen Greenwald, has gone off the rails! Glen, the statement: ‘the Muslim-bashing focus of their “satire” is not only a lie, it is a goddamed lie. You already know this from several sources who have tracked Charlie Hebdo’s content which you have deliberately decided to avoid reading. You have turned from a revelatory source of information into a posturing, xenophobic, provincial hack. You had time to backtrack and instead doubled down to show your complete lack of understanding of Charlie Hebdo and now you have added France to your insane list of enemies. Your description of how France has reacted is loaded with errors which shows how little you understand about the French and their laws. Your essay is brainless and insulting to good journalism.
The view from a staff member of Charlie Hebdo on this poorly reported on imbroglio:
First, the PEN Protestors position:
But Jean-Baptiste Thoret, a film critic for the magazine, who is accepting the PEN award in New York on Tuesday, told NPR that stand is seemingly contradictory.
First and most important–How many commentators have actually read Charlie Hebdo’s articles and caricatures? Apparently, almost none. I know for a fact Michael Ondaatje fort one does not understand French. Ondaatje & co are wrong, that’s all, and Rushdie is right. First, the self-righteous and famous line themselves up with Charlie, then belatedly, apparently after reading superficial second-hand “criticism” of the paper, they back-pedal. Charlie has always been against extremism of any kind (see the latest on Le Pen), and ONLY extremism, NEVER Islam itself. Even the controversial cover of Mahomet lamenting the terrorists takes great pains to make that clear.
In fact, it pays an indirect compliment to the Prophet.
Their journalism is among the very best, too, but those who speak out of sheer ignorance wouldn’t know that. (For those who have clearly never read the paper, I highly recommend this introductory video in English: http://www.vox.com/2015/1/8/75.)
These pop-up pomposities would probably also condemn Jonathan Swift’s “A Modest Proposal” for ironically suggesting cannibalism as a cure for unemployment and the “Irish problem”.
We already teach a censored version of “Gulliver’s Travels” that is purged of its social critique.
We are so pinched and tight-*** in the West, we’re afraid of everything. We badly need someone who will “go too far” to suit our neo-puritan Establishment.
There seems to be an abundance of vague generalization by people who clearly have not read the controversy about the “Mahomet” cover, the subsequent trial and the fire-bombing afew years ago.
This pre-judging in total ignorance is the very definition of the word “prejudice”.
When one talks without bothering to get the facts, one risks “foot-in-mouth disease”, which invariably forces one to talk out of another cavity instead.
American Puritanism is alive and well in the West.
But I do advocate that political writers, pundits, those who take on controversy including religion, should feel free to engage in blasphemy against any god(s). That doing so creates safe intellectual space for those oppressed within the various religions; it provides intellectual succor and demonstrates that terrifying dogma (fear of hellfire & etc) is a paper tiger. – Mona
I think that this is a fundamentally immutable tenet that you cannot just sweep under the rug as it suits your argument; nor can you conflate it with other, unrelated ideas to make a case stand on its own.
I also think both Glenn Greenwald and Sam Harris and these “New Atheists” have gone off the rails.
As I understand it, Glenn’s position with regards to Charlie Hebdo winning a prize is propped up on two premises: one is the idea that because Glenn thinks some people were marginalized due to blasphemous satire, it somehow makes Charlie Hebdo un-prizeworthy as Hebdo was “punching down.” In other words, according to Glenn, Hebdo’s intent was specifically to harm marginalized individuals rather than to use speech (ideas) to confront other speech (ideas).
Glenn’s second premise is that Charlie Hebdo was un-prizeworthy in this case because not only was Hebdo specifically targeting marginalized people rather than satirizing an idea, but also because the prize was awarded by an organization potentially tainted and co-opted by people in power – thus corrupting an otherwise noble institution.
Glenn’s first premise is inconsistent because there is simply little, if any, information to show that Charlie Hebdo was doing anything other than targeting ideas – which while this may as a consequence make some uncomfortable in some areas due to the current societal milieu, is, nevertheless an unintended, and most realize, inevitable consequence until proved otherwise. Glenn has not proved that it was intentional. That it is inevitable is unavoidable.
Glenn’s second premise is inconsistent because whether or not the organization awarding prizes is being or has already been co-opted is simply beside the point with regards to deciding the award worthiness of Charlie Hebdo, or any other award recipient for that matter. In other words, it is perfectly fine to have members of an organization protest being taken over (by whomever) because members feel that it devalues their organizations integrity; but not at the expense of throwing out that integrity by questioning a legitimately given award for the very thing the organization stands for.
That’s just preposterous. Logically sinful, in fact.
Now, on to Sam Harris and the “New Atheists”. Their collective derailment centers primarily on the idea that they think that the entire world is being corrupted by bad-actors, whose overarching ideas they see as co-opting more enlightened ideas, despite individuals being, demonstrably, free agents as far as speech and expression are concerned no matter where they get their ideas from. In other words, Sam Harris and the “New Atheists” premise here is inconsistent because it has never, ever been demonstrated that just because an overarching idea holds sway at the time that it is therefore the ‘mother-load of all bad ideas’ and therefore capable of overtaking the human race. History says otherwise.
That’s just preposterous. Logically sinful, in fact.
The Left licks Islamic ass.
This editorial should put Greenwald’s idiocy to rest once and for all. The day of him speaking for the left wing is OVER. He has no credibility any more.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/nick-cohen/2015/04/charlie-hebdo-the-literary-indulgence-of-murder/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
I’m not convinced at all. For example, Nick Cohen quotes: “[CH] ridiculed the pope, orthodox Jews and Muslims in equal measure and with the same biting tone.” Really? Why present the three categories as “pope, orthodox Jews, Muslims” in the first place? Why are these the units to compare? And the famous Le Monde tallying of the 2005-2010 CH covers shows: not one cover was about Jews.
Oops, that’s 2005 until 2015 (523 CH covers). Note that not one of these was solely about judaism. See http://www.lemonde.fr/idees/article/2015/02/24/non-charlie-hebdo-n-est-pas-obsede-par-l-islam_4582419_3232.html
Actually the article you reference does not say that at all. What Le Monde did do was describe Charles Hebdo: “Irrévérencieux et indéniablement antiraciste.” Too bad Greenwald and those 200 writers cannot read French.
I wrote “Note that not one of these [523 CH covers] was solely about judaism”. The graph in the Le Monde link says so (it only has religious groupings: Muslim, Christian, Multiple).
Glenn doesn’t read French and won’t operate Google Translate. When you have screwed up, ignorance can be bliss.
From the article: “Whatever else is true, PEN America has always existed to defend unorthodox and marginalized views from attack, and there is absolutely nothing unorthodox or marginalized in the West about the views expressed by Charlie Hebdo cartoonists”
I think this is an unfairly narrow description of what PEN does. According to the PEN website, “PEN’s bedrock work is long-term advocacy on behalf of individual writers who are being persecuted because of their work.” The views do not have to be unorthodox or marginalized. The views only have to expose the writer to persecution. PEN has defended unorthodox and marginalized views, but that is not a prerequisite. So CH is not disqualified from being the sort of thing that PEN would defend.
“So CH is not disqualified from being the sort of thing that PEN would defend”. No one said otherwise. Defending is not under discussion. Opposing writers say that PEN *awarding* CH is one step too far. That Award *is* a judgement on CH’s content, and *does* omit a broader view, as a political choice.
Yes, LGBTQ issues are expediently used by the US and Russia, but so are those of women. Indeed, fighting for the rights of women was cited as one of the reasons to invade Afghanistan in the first place against the Taliban by George Bush. This trend has continued with the accolades for Malala Yousafzai because she tells the story the West likes to hear. Only degenerates would bar little girls from education! (Understand, I don’t mean to diminish Yousafzai’s story at all, but to say that the use of her is politically viable for the West and also that there are many other women, children, and men killed by US drone strikes whose stories are never told to Westerners.) Frantz Fanon wrote beautifully about the Western colonizers capitalizing on the tropes of the “anti-woman Arab male” in Algeria Unveiled; Chakravorty-Spivak famously wrote that the interference of Westerners in India was a replicated case of “white men saving brown women from brown men.” And while Pussy Riot vociferously denounced LGBTQ discrimination in Putin’s Russia, it can’t be ignored that they are/were punished because they are females doing things females should not do. It’s ok to say it.
I think that in addition to hiring Presumptuous Insect as a media artist extraordinaire, The Intercept should seriously consider retaining his services as translator. He’s that damn good.
Meanwhile, as we’re just now becoming fully realized that this entire imbroglio has just about everything to do with hypocrisy and tribalism, and not so much to do with speech at all, it seems that some of the ‘new progressives’ would do well to also heed some advice given to the ‘new atheists’ on the matter of being efficacious and remaining relevant:
I’d also like to (re)thank Mona for her efforts at unpacking the complexities of French culture, particularly with regards to contextualizing Charlie Hebdo and the satire that organization produces. For those so intent on marginalizing her voice here (good luck with that, by the way) – one things certain: you’ll not see her stonewalling anybody that really wants to have a reasoned dialog, at least not that I’ve seen.
Apologies – the link to the above comment re: “this entire imbroglio has just about everything to do with hypocrisy and tribalism, and not so much to do with speech at all” brings one to the top of the “No One Compared Charlie Hebdo to the Nazis, and It’s a Logical Sin To Say So” comment section (a worthwhile read in its entirety) and not the specific comment intended, which is here:
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/04/28/logical-impairment-sad-nonexistent-charlie-hebdokkk-comparison/#comment-127234
I believe that PI is of the feminine persuasion.
So Mona thinks the Charlie Hebdo staff were brave. The whole Western media and political establishment tell us Charlie Hebdo were brave. And we, the public, are all meant to follow group-think and nod our head and say they were extremely brave.
But what proof does anyone have they were brave? Bravery isn’t defined by an act, it is defined by how dangerous you perceive the act to be. If there is a terrible storm, and I decide to go out and save my cat and I think the storm isn’t terrible and there is very little chance I will die, I am not being brave, even though most people would consider the act to be brave. Similarly, if there is no storm but just slightly windy weather, but I think it is very dangerous to go outside but still go out to bring my cat back indoors, then I am brave, even though most people would consider the act to be anything but brave.
We don’t know how seriously the cartoonists at Charlie Hebdo thought was the danger of them being killed in an attack. Just because you say ” I’d prefer to die on my feet than to live on my knees”, it doesn’t mean you actually think you will be killed.
Anyway, Charlie Hebdo didn’t believe in freedom of speech, they believe in freedom of speech within the “framework of the law and values of the Republic”. There IS a difference, so let’s be concise when we talk about what Charlie Hebdo believe in. Therefore, Charb and the other guys died not protecting freedom of speech, they died protecting their right to take the piss put of people.
Staffer Laurent Leger said that. Blasphemy and anti-clericalism are definitely within the values of the French Republic! But yes, France does not have the expansive free speech liberty that we Americans do.
As for your doubts that the Charlie Hebdo staff were brave, well, I think that’s purely malicious. They’d received many threats and the offices were fire-bombed in ’11. Minimal tho it was, they had been assigned law enforcement security.
Then, after the killing that turned their offices into a slaughterhouse, their first issue ran a cover depicting Mohammed (announcing that all is forgiven).
He said that regarding Charlie Hebdo.
He said:
Considering he worked at Charlie Hebdo, I’d say he knew what they believed in better than you do, unless you have something to show he is being inaccurate.
No, why is it malicious? Why can I not have any doubts? Why do you not have any doubts? Surely the position should be that unless there is evidence pointing strongly towards something, we should be doubtful. Therefore, I cannot say they were brave, as there is no strong evidence to suggest they were brave. Maybe they were brave. Maybe they were very brave. Maybe they weren’t. But I am certainly not going to go around saying they were brave and saying to people who doubt that they were not brave that they are “not human”.
Correction: But I am certainly not going to go around saying they were brave and saying to people who doubt that they were not brave that they are “not human”.
Should be: But I am certainly not going to go around saying they were brave and saying to people who doubt that they were brave that they are “not human”.
That’s fine, because no one else has said that, either; I did say the sentiment is not human.
The Freedom of Expression Award should go to people who believe in expansive freedom of expression, not people who limit their freedom of expression to the “values of the Republic”.
That would limit the award to a category of Americans. The entire rest of the world holds to lesser amounts of free speech than we do. But France values anti-clericalism and allows blasphemy, and has when it was still criminal in the West.
Prickly! I wasn’t taking issue with that.
No, why is it malicious? Why can I not have any doubts?
Because to do is unreasonable. There were threats, including death threats, there was a fire bombing of their offices.
They knew about the fatwa on Salman Rushdie and his publishers. When the fatwa on Satanic verses was issued this happened:
I think the point is a good one, if my summation is fair: that defending CH’s free speech is a far different cry than giving CH an award for no more than getting themselves killed.
I agree.
I am primarily preoccupied with free speech in all such cases. However, having said that, I can appreciate disdain for CH’s indulgence for the very same reasons I disdain Richard Dawkins’s inanities.
@nojokes:
You wrote, “There are no laws protecting Muslims in Europe from Islamophobic publication.”
Actually, there *are* laws in France criminalizing incitement of religious or racial hatred. Former National Front leader Jean-Marie Le Pen has been prosecuted under them, for inciting hatred of Muslims, at least twice. That said, French authorities are much quicker to prosecute (and convict for) anti-Jewish hate speech than anti-Muslim hate speech.
I used to live in France and began reading Charlie Hebdo in the 70s. I learned proper French by reading Le Monde and improper French by reading Charlie Hebdo. Charlie has been virulently anticlerical and antireligious from the start. (If you do a bit of digging, you can even find a cartoon taking a shot at Buddhism, with a figure who looks suspiciously like the Dalai Lama saying, “Buddhism isn’t so much a religion of @ssholes as it is a bullsh!t philosophy.”) Charlie and its cartoonists have also been outspoken allies of Muslims and Beurs when it comes to police profiling, immigration profiling, police brutality, and the National Front. (A plethora of cartoons are there to support this assertion but, curiously, none seem to have been adduced in the Anglo press’s discussions of Charlie’s individiously discriminatory islamophobia.) Finally, some of its supposedly most offensive anti-Muslim cartoons are actually targeting the other side. Even comedian Jimmy Dore got that the “Boko Haram welfare queen” cartoon was aimed at the French right [who were using the fabricated stereotype to try to push through cuts to child welfare payments]; Glenn Greenwald did not.
France has been running a Jim Crow society for decades, with Muslim, Beur, and immigrant populations heavily segregated in separate neighborhoods, widespread de facto discrimination, utterly ineffectual laws against such discrimination, and a professional and social glass ceiling for all but the token or lucky few. (If you’re a decently educated French Beur or Black and you want a shot at a career, your best move is to immigrate to Montreal.) I’m not aware that Charlie ever did much to take on this root cause of French/Muslim strife, and it’s a heavy mark against them. But charging them with Muslim-bashing on cherrypicked evidence, and conflating them with the oppressive régimes who co-opted the outrage at their massacre is unfair, and poor journalism. Do they deserve a PEN award? I don’t know. Writing up and publishing the revelations of Manning, Sterling, Snowden, and other national-security whistleblowers is far more important than anything Charlie Hebdo ever did, but on the other hand, death is a high price to pay for satire. Were they, or are they, in fact vicious Muslim-bashers? We could once have asked their Algerian-born copyeditor, Mustapha Ourrad, but he’s dead.
One last thing: Martin Luther King, Jr., once said, “Of all the forms of inequality, injustice in health care is the most shocking and inhumane.” That’s one injustice we can’t lay at France’s feet. Every last Beur, Black, and immigrant in France is covered by French national health insurance on the same terms as the very richest, very whitest, very Frenchest Frenchman. Here in the United States, MLK’s words still apply with full force.
“One last thing: Martin Luther King, Jr., once said, “Of all the forms of inequality, injustice in health care is the most shocking and inhumane.” That’s one injustice we can’t lay at France’s feet. Every last Beur, Black, and immigrant in France is covered by French national health insurance on the same terms as the very richest, very whitest, very Frenchest Frenchman. Here in the United States, MLK’s words still apply with full force.”
That may be off topic, but it’s a brilliant and very important paragraph. Thank you for dropping it in.
“Charlie has been virulently anticlerical and antireligious from the start.” That’s what PEN says too. So far so good. But.
But there is more to say. And it has been said, this year, including by PEN authors: 1. did CH treat and see all “clericals” (i.e. superior powers) equal? 2. Did CH treat and see all religions equal? 3. Did CH criticise Israel? No, No, No. (In France, you’re not even allowed to express anti-zionism).
The point is that protesting PEN authors do not want to Applaud and Award a selective outing like CH. There is no heroism in pounding muslims in France. I can simply repeat: Kicking muslims in France is *not* brave. CH did not treat the *powerful* religions as they treated Islam (and their followers: catholics, jews vs. muslims).
Of for fucking fuck’s sake. Strictly in response ot CH’s blasphemy vis-a-vis Islam their offices were firebombed in ’11, and the staff received frequent death threats. Prior to the slaughter, several staff, including Stephane Charbonnier, were asked by the press about this danger:
Charb and 11 others were subsequently executed in a scene that turned the premises into an abattoir.
If that’s not brave enough for you, you aren’t human.
They had police protection. If they thought they chances of them being killed by an Islamist were very remote, then they were not brave.
You do not know whether or not they thought they might really get killed. Therefore, how the fuck can you say they were brave? You can’t.
Now maybe they were brave. Maybe they did think there was a real chance they might killed. I don’t know, and neither do you, so stop pretending with this “they were so brave” nonsense.
I’ve dispatched this victim-bashing in a (format fucked-up) post here: https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/04/27/writers-withdraw-pen-gala-protest-award-charlie-hebdo/#comment-127403
re Mona, quoting Charbonnier : “if we say to religion, ‘You are untouchable,’ we’re f*****’
In France, Charbonnier could not say that to the *Jewish* religion. Why don’t you try it yourself today, Mona?
AtheistinChief asks me:
To get this out of the way from the outset: He’s not calling for Charlie Hebdo’s speech to be criminalized or banned. It would be inconceivable for him to take that position.
In his article he writes:
Charlie Hebdo’s views are anti-religious, and of a sudden, among their fellow leftists being anti-religious where Islam is concerned has become a terrible faux pas. (One semi-regular commenter here says their work is no different than the Klan’s.) Glenn and others seek to deprive CH entry into the ranks of acceptable dissent and leftism, notwithstanding that a dozen of them were slaughtered in their blood-soaked offices for refusing to discontinue the publication of blasphemy.
I see CH standing in the tradition of Voltaire and other French philosophes. Moreover, CH satirized the fascists in France who discriminate against French Muslims and want to make them miserable and keep them poor — Charlie Hebdo is a magazine of the left. But it doesn’t take seriously the Abrahamic god of Islam, any more than it does the Abrahamic god of Judaism or Christianity — CH mocks religion, including rabbis, Mohammed, Jesus, and bishops.
Glenn, and others, think CH is unfit for a courage award. The more they explain why they think this, the more disturbed I become. Charlie Hebdo is a leftist publication in a French tradition of radical secularism and anti-clericalism; it would be untenable of it to carve out a huge exception for Islam from its anti-religious satire. But that they don’t do so is reason for Glenn and others to hold that their content should preclude the PEN award.
My strong view, however, is that because CH would not execute a carve-out for Islam 12 of them have been mercilessly slaughtered, and thus they merit a courage award.
_____________________________________________
Now, to separate all of the above from a different point: Glenn and others are outraged and disgusted by Islamophobes, Zionists and neocon sudden love for a leftist magazine that specializes in attacking religion; the brigades that include David Frum are elevating Charlie Hebdo staff to sainthood in the fight against the evil Muslim hordes. Nevermind that CH staff revile these people and do not want their adulation.
My position is that CH staff are acting in good faith and have been, indeed, extremely brave, and I don’t give a shit if some Bad People seek to co-opt them for their own malign agendas — at least not enough of a shit to tailor my own position on CH because of it.
Agreed!
Thanks Mona!
And I just wanted to say, that maybe in my mind, I was being a bit too harsh on CH, and that comparing them to the KKK is patently absurd, and unfair (of which I’m guilty below). I thought the thrust of Glenn’s article was to question the judgment of celebrating their brand of satire.
But I take your point. 12 of them WERE massacred, and it seems that their intentions are to provoke in general, not just provoke Muslims.
Thanks again Mona :)
That’s your position. That is all it is. It isn’t fact, so stop going around trying to pass it off as fact.
Your emotions are getting the better of your capacity for reason: When a person identifies X as “her position” she is not claiming it as a fact.
It is the only reasonable position, but it is not a fact.
“Blame the victims, much? Maybe he did die pleading for his life. So what? He lived for years knowing he could be killed at any moment and never allowed fear to dictate his editorial policy.” -Hans Bavinck
Yet, he still felt the need to have a ‘personal’ bodyguard?
this is a brilliant analysis. Thank you for being brave enough, especially in this atmosphere of Media lynch mob mentality, where it is perfectly acceptable to have an open season on Muslims… only. We live in a xenophobic Islamophobic world…where media has actively played a part in disseminating false information so that politicians with agendas can use Islam as their bogeyman…thank you again!
this is a well written article! & a brave one considering the current atmosphere of excessive xenophobic hatred against Muslims. Thank you for being brave enough. Unfortunately most agendas of many governments around the world regardless of race religion and culture new with self preservation
Punching Up vs. Punching Down
-or-
Punching In vs. Punching Out
This is just the same old pathetic story. The out group is to be endlessly criticized while the in group must never be criticized. This same game has been played millions upon millions of times. There is nothing moral about this position. Welcome to party politics.
But it is different this time–you will tell me–I am protecting the weak!
But you aren’t interested in protecting the weak, only those that agree with you (I’m still unsure of what morality you are preaching). The weak are merely political props. Magic moral talisman used by the powerful to prove that only their power is righteous.
The republican and democratic parties have cynically played this “I’m just protecting the children” so many times before that nobody can be preaching this crap with a straight face.
Weren’t you the least bit suspicious when protecting the weak meant creating an in group and an out group? Didn’t it seem odd that you were speaking the same old words, just with different labels? Weren’t you even slightly curious that the morality of actions were now being defined not by what you did, but by what group you are in?
So I guess it comes down to whether you were lying out of weakness or power. Why don’t you take a guess about which one it is.
sorry
…. what a vast majority of french people consider of paramount importance “la laïcité” is not understood at all. Our societies are more different than it may seem. We don’t apply the death penalty, we don’t carry guns… we separate the state affairs from all religions and we don’t solemnly swear on the bible…. etc. I won’t try to explain what really is Charlie and argue that only a minority of satirical drawings published in Charlie are related to religion (if you care, research has been done on the matter…). I don’t care at all about the Pen award, it doesn’t mean anything to me – and I am surprised that someone from Charlie will come and collect it, the old (dead) guys from Charlie wouldn’t have moved, they’ d made a satire of it. And thery would have been right ! I hope in the end, nobody from Charlie will put on a tie and a clean shirt and aknowledge, say thank you and deliver the most “déjà entendu” speach ever. But I am shocked by the arguments of the writers who oppose the prize being given to Charlie. I fully agree with Salman Rushdie’s statement and I feel sorry and ashamed for them. You live in a different world. Charb the last head of Charlie just finished a small book before being shot : “Lettre aux escrocs de l’islamophobie qui font le jeu des racistes” (quick translation : Letter to the crooks of islamophobia who pave the way for racists”.) His point : turning plain racists comments or attitude into islamophobia is a way to use Islam and turn racism into a religious issues which it isn’t, a racist don’t give a damm if you are moslem, jewish, hinduist or whatever, he just hates your guts, period. That’s all folks.
Salman Rushdie is mischaracterizing opposition to the PEN award:
– “If PEN as a free-speech organisation can’t defend and celebrate people who have been murdered for drawing pictures, then frankly the organisation is not worth the name,” Rushdie said. “What I would say to both Peter and Michael and the others is, I hope nobody ever comes after them.”
– “This issue has nothing to do with an oppressed and disadvantaged minority. It has everything to do with the battle against fanatical Islam, which is highly organised, well funded, and which seeks to terrify us all, Muslims as well as non Muslims, into a cowed silence.
– Salman Rushdie has accused fellow authors, including Peter Carey and Michael Ondaatje, of being “pussies” for boycotting an event organised by the free-speech organisation PEN at which the French satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo is to be given an award.”
http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/apr/27/salman-rushdie-pen-charlie-hebdo-peter-carey
So to sum up, Rushdie is saying:
1) Other authors opposing the award, should support the award to Charlie Hebdo, lest potential killers, for some unknown reason, come after those opposing authors.
2) Other authors opposing the award, are doing so, not out of a concern for a disadvantaged minority, which is what they’ve said is their motivation for speaking up, but because they are on the side of fanatical Islam and are expressing their opposition to the majority of PEN, because they have been cowed into silence.
3) Other authors opposing the award, are pussies.
I understand he wants to condemn the murders at Charlie Hebdo, but I can’t decide which of Rushdie’s points is the most inane.
Frankie..
Not according to the numerous reports that I’ve perused. (.. but since you seem to ‘know it all’, how about providing a reference to substantiate said claim)
I’m calling, ‘bullshit’. (.. up until the point where you provide proof that refutes my sentiment)
Correct. All one needs to infiltrate the white house, is an access code and means to subdue their token bodyguard. (*see below)
“Only issue”, no. I’m just pointing out that the individual responsible for the security/safety of his associates, was negligent in his efforts, and was more concerned with himself and his rhetoric. (.. also, Mr. Chris Hedges has already exposed the ‘fact’ that this organization is a propagandistic affiliate of my gov, so it is of my opinion that the award has no merit to begin with)
The ‘Gimper’ was shot in the white house?? Reference, please.
This coming from the fanatic who is dry-humping the leg of an individual whose quotes and actions were a constituent of this atrocity?
*Une Production Que Fumez-Vous
Can I just make one simple, crucial point again? This choice between supporting CH and calling out CH supporters for their insincerity / hypocrisy / selectivity / implicit anti-Muslim bias is a false choice. It doesn’t have to made. One can defend freedom of speech by standing with CH and recognizing the courage of the journalists who were slaughtered for their speech (because they knew they were publishing in the face of that threat), while simultaneously pointing out the insincerity, etc. of CH supporters (who would never glorify a KKK group in the same set of circumstances). One can choose to do both.
And that is exactly what Greenwald did back in 2006.
In February, 2006, very soon after the worldwide violent protests that resulted from the publication of the Danish cartoons, Greenwald wrote this:
So, there you see him both defending freedom of speech and calling out free speech hypocrites in the same paragraph. Easy!
So, why hasn’t Greenwald done the same thing in the present case? Why isn’t he standing up for freedom of speech when it’s clearly under the same threat he observed in 2006? What is different about the Greenwald of 2015? How does he explain the different choice he’s making? He hasn’t explained it.
(There’s a distinction to be made between merely supporting CH and giving them an award. But in the previous column, the question was only whether to support CH, and Greenwald declined, taking the same position he has here.)
Maybe Glenn believes publishing cartoons of Mohammed is good but not the constant Muslim bashing that CH were doing…
Greenwald wasn’t “embracing” (his word from the previous column) the content of the Danish cartoons back in 2006; he was just “defending their [the cartoonists’] right to publish ideas free of intimidation and attack.” He was defending the right to speak regardless of the content of the speech. Content neutrality is what freedom of speech is all about, and I’m pretty sure that Greenwald isn’t refusing to support CH because of the content of their speech. For some reason he hasn’t explained, he’s choosing to make the issue all about the insincerity of those who are supporting and glorifying CH, while completely ignoring that CH was indeed acting courageously in the face of a grave threat, and are deserving of his support for the exact same reason he supported the Danish cartoonists in 2006.
Glenn has explicitly repudiated his 2006 position; he says he has changed his mind. He did this in comments the last time Charlie Hebdo was a topic of his post.
That’s obvious, Mona. The question is why. The question is what exactly is his new position?
I can only speculate and tell you what I told him I think is the reason for his change of mind. Since ’06 Glenn has met many, many victimized Muslims in his travels and written extensively about them. I imagine sitting in the home of Maher Arar and his wife, and hearing them tell the story of his abduction and torture at the hands of Canada and the U.S., who renditioned him to Syria, I can only imagine what kind of empathy and anger would come pouring out of Glenn on behalf of Arar.
And that’s just one brutalized Muslim. Glenn has said that in his travels he meets many, many American (and other) Muslims and hears stories of experiences that no American should have to endure. In the U.S. Muslims and atheists are disapproved of, but the Muslims are subjected to a good deal more overt bigotry.
Glenn feels that; he identifies with these victims.
My psychology, however, is informed by additional things. Some weeks back on Twitter, a young ex-Muslim male from a Muslim nation engaged Glenn on the evils of Islam; this young man was forging the difficult path of being gay in that culture. Perhaps counter-intuitively, Glenn’s response to him was somewhat dismissive (I thought), while mine was very empathetic.
Glenn was raised in a secular home with little to no attempt to indoctrinate him into Judaism or any other faith. To understate, I had a different experience. I was raised in a faith that kept me in terror of eternal torment depending on what did with my nether parts and whether I “interfered” with reproduction; to my detriment, my sex and reproductive life was dictated by this heinous shit until I was 25.
At about that same time, I met a young Iraq-American woman who was chafing under the Islam her parents were imposing on her. We both ended up as religious studies majors, and both ended up as atheists. As far as she and I were concerned, we had suffered the same thing, just under slightly different brand names.
I identify with the young gay man who tweeted Glenn. I identify with Muslims living in a culture of oppressive religion in which they may not feel free to speak their minds or be themselves. That dynamic is as real to me as is the horror of torturing Maher Arar.
This difference in experience, I think, explains, at least in part, why Glenn and I land on different sides of this debate.
A pov from Marseille(s), France. I just spent over an hour fascinated by what I read from various authors and seemingly well informed people about the Pen / Charlie “award conflict”. I have the strong feeling that most of those who express an opinion had never heard or read an issue of Charlie before january 7th. Quite normal, even in France, Charlie was slowly dying in a niche. Charlie belonged to another era. Generaly speaking most of what was considered satire 20 years ago has become illegal or authors will be sued. Coluche, the most popular standup artist of 20 years ago would not be able to perform today. Communautarism has won the politicaly correct battle. Talking about freedom of expression, self censureship is predominant. The way I see things, what a lafrench people consider of paramount importance : “laïcité” is not understood at all. I mean not at all.
Greenwald, via twitter, links to PEN writer Francine Prose who explains her position objecting to the Charlie Hebdo award (emphasis mine):
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/apr/28/i-admire-charlie-hebdos-courage-but-it-does-not-deserve-a-pen-award?CMP=share_btn_tw
Excellent suggestions, Pedinska. I still see merit in honoring the staff (which is what is being honored, not the material) at CH, but I would add to your inspiring list the two Muslim bloggers who were just hacked to death for their blogs calling for a more secular and inclusive attitude within Islam. The sad thing is how many candidates there are to choose from. Journalists, artists, and writers are under restraint and threat the world over. It’s rarely been more important to stand with those championing free. speech.
The award that CH is getting is the “PEN/Toni and James C. Goodale Freedom of Expression Courage Award“. I’ve searched unsuccessfully for a list of past recipients and I’m wondering if this isn’t a special award created just for CH.
PEN is also awarding four individuals with its “Oxfam Novib/PEN Award for Freedom of Expression”. Curiously, this award is also bestowed (in part) for courage:
Greenwald, via twitter, links to PEN writer Francine Prose… – Pedinska
Copying (albeit much more succinctly) what was essentially my stance on this issue from yesterday will definitely serve neither Greenwald nor Prose very well at all. What a silly proposition.
A Claiming Relevance To Those With Real Names Production™
h/t Mr. Sorbus Aucuparia, WG
h/t suave
#PunchingUpAnyone?™
This is interesting:
David Berreby – Why Americans See Racism Where The French See No Problem
“Both countries are nations of immigrants, but their approaches to newcomers could not be more different. Come to France, and you’re welcomed to the table—if you’re willing to speak French, eat French food, and see the world as French people do. (In the last French presidential debate, both candidates fell over each other to assure their people that there would be no halal meat offered in French school cafeterias—a bizarre note to my ear here in New York, where parking rules are suspended for Succoth, Idul-Adha, Good Friday and Diwali, and no one frets.) Assimilation in France is hierarchical, in the sense proposed by Harvard’s Jim Sidanius: Success is measured by how close people come to the summit, which is perfect Frenchness.
In the United States, though, assimilation is what Sidanius would call authoritarian. It’s not about a standard of culture or conduct or speech. It’s just a contract. There are rules, and you’re welcome if you adhere to them. What language you speak, what God you worship, aren’t relevant. That approach makes for less community but more openness of mind. Put it this way: If someone is acting in a way that is far from a French person’s idea of what is French, then said person is most definitely not French. If someone is acting in a way that is far from my idea of what is American, well, hey, you never know. The guy could still be as American as I am, in the eyes of the law and my fellow citizens.”
http://bigthink.com/Mind-Matters/why-americans-see-racism-where-the-french-see-no-problem
And this, from the same author:
“Now, this is not an argument that everyone and everything should be expressed. All democracies have limits on absolute freedom of speech, to which Choudary cunningly alluded. In some democracies, it is illegal to deny the Holocaust, or to preach racism. In all, it is illegal to cry “fire!” in a crowded theater.
And notions of what is beyond the pale will vary. Even Milton, as Stanley Fish enjoyed pointing out, would not extend his ideals of liberty to non-Protestants. Because (and this was Fish’s point), people who believe in something by definition cannot believe in everything. “If conviction is not simply a component in an endless liberal debating society,” he wrote, “there is always going to be some point at which you are going to say ‘Not X; them we burn.’ ” Milton, Fish wrotes, imagines “a better life for himself and for his fellows. But he knows that such an imagination requires the equally strong imagining of what actions, what agents, will have to be excluded from that better life, or else it won’t be any better.” “
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-berreby/to-uphold-freedom-of-spee_b_6444918.html
also interesting:
“Us and them: A story we can’t help telling: David Berreby
David talks about some of the science behind our natural tendency to form us and them groups and how us and them have value for our lives but need to be handled properly. “
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EdqxIR_w8A
The author does not know anything about the political beliefs of Charlie, which are strongly anti-racist (including against racism against muslims)
I just “sucked off a corpse?” I’m the one defending journalists/cartoonists who died championing free-speech. And that is exactly what they did. I’ve been surprised at the number of posters who don’t seem to know much about Charlie Hebdo. These writers and cartoonists were under constant threat; they made a conscious decision to continue to work knowing that; their colleagues –the ones being honored–kept their offices open to send the message that the proper response to being offended is not a bloody massacre. Their deaths are akin to the two Muslim bloggers who were just hacked to death with machetes in broad daylight for calling for a more secular world. Writers are dying for daring to practice their craft. That is a calamity and those are the corpses we need to pay attention to.
My position might be, but isn’t, complicated by the fact that I do not care for that particular brand of satire, that I have –over the past decade– written literally thousands of posts at Salon and The Guardian excoriating those engaging in Islam-bashing, that though I’m an atheist I’ve consistently championed the rights of religions to practice their faith peacefully, so that I’m highly critical of Christopher Hitchens’ stance on many issues, especially is one on religions, but that I fully agree with the brilliant debate he gave on free-speech and why it remains the last best bulwark between freedom and the cultural darkness that is falling everywhere.
What I most despair of are the attempts to continually reduce complex and nuanced issues to mind-numbingly stupid soundbites like yours. Yet that’s a paradox, because this is a simple issue. One can simultaneously be critical of Charlie Hebdo’s approach and tone (I am) yet champion– passionately– its right to free speech. I’d rather side with those who harness the power of the pen to express their anxieties –and respond in kind and criticize those cartoons–than those who pick up guns and kill the artists. I’m sorry if that strains your powers of reasoning, but what it emphatically is not is “sucking off a corpse.”
They didn’t die defending free-speech. Stop being so sensationalist. They had a magazine. The business model of the magazine was to be as outrageous as possible to sell copies.
If I have a newspaper, and I criticise ISIS, and ISIS threaten to kill me, and I carry on criticising ISIS, it doesn’t mean I am a champion of free speech. I might, for all you know, be happy for people whose views I disagree with to be locked up in jail.
“Sucking off a corpse” is sensationalistic. Pointing out that CH has a well-documented record on standing for free speech (among many other things they were standing in solidarity with Danish cartoonists under threat and killed and protesting the murder of Theo Van Gogh)…not so much.
Codswollop. You know nothing of the staff and motives at CH. These artists and activists tend to be older (like me!); to be “soixante-huitards,” or ’68ers. They are France’s hippie generation. In their time they raged in favor of laïcité, or French secularism.
With the arrival of multiculturalism and attention to Islam as a religion of the oppressed, CH has divided the baby by defending Arabs against the fascists who discriminate against them, while retaining the right (they would say duty) to mock an Abrahamic god and religion. They think of themselves as carrying on the traditions of Voltaire and the Enlightenment as it occurred in France.
They are driven by those views at least as much as by any desire to sell magazines.
Codswallop – you know nothing about
1) What I do or do not know
2) What the motives of the staff were
You are simply believing what you want to believe.
Sir,
You state that “Celebrating Charlie Hebdo was largely about glorifying anti-Muslim sentiment; free expression was the pretext”. I beg to differ. I think the vast majority of the citizens involved in the rally on January 11th were not expressing anti-muslim feelin but rather a sober and dignified way to express their sorrow. Bashing them and putting everyone in the same basket does not help anyone here, as the first tactic used by islamists and their ideologues wolrdwide is the well-know tactic of brading everyone writing, drawing, or demonstrating against radicalism as “islamophobic” or “anti-muslim”. By falling into this trap, Mr. Greenwald, you risk slinding into the journalistic sink that is increasingly common those days, i.e defending or trashing unabashedly a particular group because they “deserve” so.
I would like to announce that I will be boycotting the PEN Gala because once again, my invitation was lost in the mail. I think this is emblematic of the carelessness of the organizing committee, who thereby demonstrate they should never be entrusted with selecting the awards nominees. In fact, based on this article, it also appears that once again I wasn’t nominated in the Courage category, even though I have been posting comments at The Intercept (albeit anonymously and using a scrambled VPN and a fake e-mail address). Instead, somebody called Charlie Hebdo (which sounds suspiciously like a fake name to me)
is apparently going to receive the award.
I’ve never read the work of Mr. Hebdo, but I understand he was chiefly notable for producing bad satire. If this is true, I can understand why the other writers are protesting. Satire is a lazy, puerile, derivative and annoying means of expression which should rightfully be banned in any civilized society. The fact that government leaders would march to support it demonstrates they are a pack of shameless opportunistic posers who have no idea of what they are doing.
So even if my invitation somehow shows up at the last minute, I think I will still boycott the Gala out of principle.
Juis suis benitoe.
On second thought, maybe I’ll take a pass on the Courage award.
Oz ‘… never did give nothing to the tin man that he didn’t already have.’
@Mona, you say:
Do you not find the caricature of a Muslim Brotherhood guy having a bullet go through his Quran and heart a few days after the Rabaa Massacre repugnant?
Solid silver cigarette cases in breast pockets save lives.
‘Few days’ = Relevance to current affairs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbRZKrvAZ7U
You find the caricature of a Muslim Brotherhood guy having a bullet go through his Quran and heart offensive/repugnant.
Repugnant or offensive as it may be to you if this ‘critique’ of current affairs were to be in some way banned it would equally disastrous for everybody.
#JeSuisDieudonné
When did I say it should be banned?
Mona said she hadn’t seen anything from Charlie Hebdo that was repugnant. I asked her whether or not she finds that caricature they did repugnant. No one said anything about banning things, you just imagined that in your own head.
She said/I said/you said
#MonaSays
INTENT: Repugnant/Ignorant
Qualities not found
0 Point: Mona is a monster
A You’veBeenPigeonHoled™ Production
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XO93Edk7xtw
Off the top of my head: off with his head! ;)
Probably not, not if the point is to show that sacred texts do not save one from bullets. Was that the point?
Mona: “Was that the point?” – The point was made before you answered. Now try making a joke with *Jewish* “sacred texts” in France. Then come back and report. If you can.
AU: Mona “calls for the murder of Jews” #AskCarig
She is a ‘lost cause’ extremist with sinister ‘goals’ shared by the majority of the ////Fringe Intercepters/////
#TellCraig: 2 hours seems like an eternity sometimes
#StrawWalling™ is like #FlySwatting™
Mona HarmsFlys™ #AskSillyputty
Why I am not Charlie:
http://mondoweiss.net/2015/01/why-i-am-not-charlie
LastWordSyndome™
/////////////BreakingIntercept//////////////
Mona’s repugnance antenna is faulty….. we hope to have it repaired in time for Craig’s hearing.
Mona 2.5 is unavailable due to stonewalling software drawbacks of the 0 point variety.
Continue as normal.
Only on release of Mona 3 (expected to coincide with TI comment section update) will she realise/remember that she is an ardent Anti-Semite who ‘calls for the murder of Jews’.
Until then we have to take Craig’s word for it (because 2 hours is a long time in CraigWorld)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0v0Sy1HMUDg
Thanks
Send all your inane CrapFlooding™ enquiries to Commander Silly
I would STFU if mona told me to….
Also I do not want to upset Glenn StoneWalld…..
EndlessPoint™
P.S I’ll shut up now.. Nothing on my chest (JustABoy™)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFRnD1ob810
$$$$ De-Facto $$$$
The I/P conflict C/M conflict
CraigMonaConflict™
@Mona thanks for the fan accolade ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pno78oHVr0k (only for Cindy)
(P.S according to my Anonymous source your twitter account is like Ground Zero for Anti Zionist RT’s Etc)
Expect Us ;)
`o-mazine #BDS
H/T SP
If By `o-mazine™
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smFn5HMFYeo
It is a consistent theme here to characterize Charlie Hebdo falsely. Only two or three are actually familiar with the magazine, the rest just assume. Greenwald assumes that the journal is consistently anti-Arab and insulting. That is not true. All this writing. All these comments. And not a single example offered to support those arguments. It is true that the Prophet Mohammed was portrayed. He was again on the front page of the issue of 16 January askng that everything be pardoned. If you think this deserves a death sentence, say so. If anyone here is talking about other examples, please cite the example. Charlie Hebdo does not gratutiously insult and I suspect that some of you who pretend to know about its contents are lying. If you are not, please give an example of what you are talking about.
I doubt that there are many commenters who have not looked at the many images available on the web, but it you mean something more than that, you have a point.
It isn’t Glenn’s fault if you don’t have the ability to go and do your research and just assume that just because you haven’t seen anything, it must be false.
That’s a bit like me assuming that Stalin never said anything bad about capitalism just because I haven’t studied Stalin and have never come across a Stalin quote on capitalism.
I am no expert on Charlie Hebdo, so I cannot comment exactly what the magazine was like and how much of their attacks were against caricaturing Islam and Muslims, but I can say that they certainly weren’t the magazine you make them out to be. Maybe you ought to take a read of:
http://posthypnotic.randomstatic.net/charliehebdo/Charlie_Hebdo_article%2011.htm
@Frankster
I am french, reader of CH since the 90s (and also reader of Hara-Kiri in the 70s, former publication of the CH team). I stop reading CH in the 2000s, because of their anti-muslim ideology. I recommend this link posted by Olivier Cyran, former CH columnist, who leaves CH for the same reason I stop reading it. You will find many of the aggresive anti-muslim cartoons, and an explanation why he leaves :
http://www.article11.info/?Charlie-Hebdo-pas-raciste-Si-vous
Sorry for my poor english…
Most commentators have literally judged CH by its covers. They don’t know the publication, its authors, the context from which this satirical tradition arises, some don’t even understand a word of French. Yet they have decreed that CH was racist on the dubious ground that blasphemy was necessarily racist, when the aimed religion belonged to disenfranchised population.
Who cares? Muslims have to take a long hard look in the mirror and deal.
I have read some of the koran (English versions are online). It is indefensible, yet a lot more than 10% (some estimates go to 25%) of muslims believe it is literal truth. You just have to stay away from them and try not to accidentally communicate with them.
“Nobody suggests that working as an official of the U.S. government should be permanently disqualifying,” is a good one.
It’s certainly a divisive issue. I had a big argument with my mum and sister about this, they were taking a position similar to that of commenters Mona and Barncat here, and my position was similar to that of Mr Greenwald’s.
The main thing for me is the double standards of how Muslims are treated. A very important comparison is how Norwegian maniac Anders Breivik was treated by the press compared to the CH killers. Breivik killed 77 people in a single day – as written in his “manifesto” his motivations were a hatred of Islam, cultural Marxism and feminism. Wikipedia describes him as a “far-right terrorist”, but all the media publications I read describe him as something else: “mass murderer”, “anti Muslim extremist”, “far right extremist”, etc. anything but using the word “terrorist”. I will only use the word “terrorist” if it is used to describe all politically or ideologically motivated murders of innocents, not just those committed by Muslims.
In Oslo, 100,000 people took to the streets to remember the 77 victims of the far right terrorist.
In Paris, 2 million people took to the streets to remember the 11 victims of the far right (Muslim) terrorists.
That is 20 times as many people in the street for 7 times fewer victims.
I feel sorry for the CH staff and their families. They didn’t deserve what happened. I feel sorry for the victims of drone strikes and their families. Why aren’t the victims of drone strikes getting posthumous awards in their names? Where are the giant rallies for those (Muslim) victims every time there is another attack killing a family of ten or something similar? The world was outraged by the recent attack on Gaza, but did 2 million take to the streets to protest the industrial scale violence on Muslims?
Until the media and the mindset of people in the west starts viewing Muslim deaths and western deaths as equal in scale then we should not be blindly following the western media line that the CH victims are martyrs and saints. They were just people, unlucky people, who actually published some pretty offensive stuff. While the CH victims were certainly innocent of any crime, I have more sympathy for those Norwegian victims or Yemeni victims because they didn’t ever publish anything inflammatory, they never chose to place themselves in a dangerous situation but they were murdered anyway.
I’m an atheist and I believe in the right to criticise religion. I also believe in freedom of religion and respecting people’s rights to worship. I think it’s quite obvious that if someone says to you something like, “if you draw the head of the prophet Mohammed on a pig’s body – in my culture and my religion that would be extremely upsetting, not just to me but millions of people around the world” – then you just don’t do it. Just don’t, find another way to make your point, another way to criticise religion. It’s not going to lead all Muslims to violence but it will upset a lot of them, and of course there are far right extremists out there, if you upset some of them you’d better be careful, because you’ve knowingly put yourself at risk.
Finally, Glenn G makes a good point which I’ve made myself before, it’s just too easy to persecute an already embattled minority. There’s enough of that already, don’t heap more dung on the pile then hide behind free speech laws. There are no laws protecting Muslims in Europe from Islamophobic publication, but there ARE laws protecting Jews from similar treatment – it’s just another example of shocking double standards. It would be too easy to say, “and that’s why Muslims get so much more upset” but they don’t get MORE upset, it’s just when they do the media is all over it, and when attackers are not Muslim, the media forgets or ignores, or writes it off as something else. Just imagine if the suicidal mass-murdering Andre Lubitz who deliberately crashed a plane full of people into a mountain recently – just imagine what the media would have said if he had been a Muslim. We would not have heard the end of this story by now, that is for sure.
There are holes in your reasoning.
If Andre Lubitz had been a Muslim and had crashed the plane as a political statement, OF COURSE the media would have been all over it. If he had been a Muslim and been diagnosed with depression and career-ending eye problems and been researching suicide methods, I think that the frothing would have been confined to the usual categories of conspiracy theorists.
I don’t see this as a zero-sum situation: why do I have to feel sympathy for CH victims OR Breivik victims? Is both not possible? The comparison of the numbers of people demonstrating is – excuse me – dumb. France has a population of 66 million, Norway 5 million. So the difference between the two sets of crowds proportionally to the respective populations is 2% for Norway vs 3% for France. I don’t see a conspiracy in there.
I honestly don’t think that the terminology used to describe Breivik has ANYTHING to do with bias against Muslims. Even though he clearly had political aims, he was acting alone, and I think that is what makes the difference (in my mind anyway). Had there been an organised group trying to effect political change through violence, I have no doubt that they would be referred to as terrorists. (Look up the Baader Meinhof Gang)
These are awards for FREE SPEECH, not for being victims of terrible injustice. That’s why they don’t get awarded to people who died for something other than free speech, however terrible and unjust their death’s may have been.
Personally, I am not 100% at ease with the current ‘zeitgeist’ of calling out ‘victim blaming’ in each and every situation, but assuming (perhaps falsely) that you think that it is wrong to accuse a women of ‘asking for it’ because she wears a short skirt out late at night in a crime hotspot, how is that coherent with your stance here on “just don’t do it”?
Hi Ben S –
We don’t know the reasoning behind why Lubitz crashed the plane. If he had been a Muslim, the media would be jumping to conclusions based on his religion. Yes, there would be a few reasonable columnists out there who would say that we don’t know if religion was a factor, but there would be many more jumping on the anti-Muslim bandwagon, and probably anti-Muslim protests in Germany as a result.
The terminology used to describe Breivik is extremely important. Breivik may have acted alone, but he was in contact with other far right groups – he had links with the English Defence League (a neo-Nazi British group), he was on the board of the Progress Party and he claimed to be a member of the Knights Templar. If a Muslim had all those contacts with various extremist groups, and then committed an atrocity seemingly on his own, then he would be called a terrorist plain and simple. He has also tried to start a political party from his prison cell writing hundreds of letters.
OK a similar percentage of the population joined the rallies (although it was a higher percentage of the French population) – but where were the 40 world leaders in Oslo? Where was the blanket media coverage the CH rallies got? I’m not saying this is a “conspiracy” as you put it, more just a total Western media bias against Muslims.
You say “I don’t see this as a zero-sum situation: why do I have to feel sympathy for CH victims OR Breivik victims?” – Yes, neither do I. I feel sympathy for all the victims, I just take issue when one set of victims (western and victims of Muslim violence) are put on a pedestal and the others (Muslim, or people killed by western extremists) are forgotten. This is not victim blaming – this is pointing out the hypocrisy and double standards of western media and thinking. Of course women should never be blamed for being raped, but if in a society where both white Christian women and brown Muslim women are being raped in equal numbers but the press only report on the former and not the latter. I would take issue with that saying that white Christian victims shouldn’t be put on a pedestal – in NO WAY is that lacking in sympathy for any of the victims or blaming them, you’re making assumptions if you think it is.
“it is wrong to accuse a women of ‘asking for it’ because she wears a short skirt out late at night in a crime hotspot, how is that coherent with your stance here on “just don’t do it”?” – Just don’t do it because there are laws against it, it is illegal and wrong, and rightly so. Just don’t draw offensive pictures of Mohammed because although there are no laws against it, so it is really quite different to the example you describe, you know that it is offensive to millions of people.
Sorry Ben S I muddled the last point there – when a woman goes out she can wear whatever she wants and know that it is not deliberately offending millions of people, in fact nobody can justly claim to be offended by a short skirt – that is the difference between that and drawing pictures of Mohammed. Millions of reasonable and non-violent Muslims can justly claim it is an offensive thing to do
(I’ve commented too much here already, so don’t take my subsequent silence wrongly)
Jumping to conclusions if Lubitz were Muslim would be entirely rational, in my opinion. What percentage of suicide attacks in recent memory were perpetrated by non-Muslims? It may not be nice – and even unfair – for the overwhelming majority of Muslims, but it’s not irrational.
Who says your millions of Muslims won’t be offended by the short skirt? :P
You see, you’re saying that a higher percentage of Muslims perpetrate suicide attacks. I don’t think at all it’s reasonable to make these assumptions because in that case it was a non-Muslim German who killed 150 people in the Alps. It was a Norwegian Christian who killed 68 kids on that island, or it was Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols who killed 168 people in Oklahoma, while Israeli and American bombs kill Muslims in the Middle East. It’s the overwhelming western belief that Muslims are more violent, and more likely to be responsible for violence that I object to. Millions of Muslims aren’t angry about French girls in short skirts, seriously.. :)
Norway has a much smaller population than France and it is normal that a march in Oslo be smaller than one in Paris.
Norway has no deep tradition of street demonstration like France does and it is normal that a march in Oslo be smaller than one in Paris.
Apples and oranges.
Charlie Hebdo was a pro-immigrant publication that never tried to “persecute an already embattled minority”. However, it did mock integrist Islam which is not freeing Muslims but enslaving them throughout the world. Its cartoonists were not killed because they offended ordinary Muslims – I lived in a majority immigrant neighborhood in France and can affirm ordinary Muslims didn’t care about Charlie one hoot. They were killed because they defied an Al Qaeda fatwa and offended the violent salafist fringe.
There are no laws protecting Jews from mockery of their religion, but since Jews – at least in France – don’t care about mockery of their religion, Charlie Hebdo instead satirized the one thing that could offend them: Israel. And it did so often, and vehemently, more than it ever mocked Islam. I suppose they would have been politically correct if they had satirized Abraham or some other Jewish prophet more often, but that would have been the kind of false equivalence they abhorred. They hit integrist Jews where it hurt: by criticizing Israel.
I’ll just reiterate that Breivik killed 7 times as many as the CH brothers. The Charlie Hebdo massacre was a terrible thing, no doubt, I’m happy to believe that their satire was not entirely or even mostly wrong or offensive, I’d just like to see a more equal status for victims of all race and religions. There are laws protecting Jews from mockery of their religion – see this: http://www.france24.com/en/20140110-french-ban-anti-semitic-comic-fuels-free-speech-debate/
There are no laws protecting Jews from mockery of their religion. Dieudonné did not mock their religion. There are laws protecting Jews from “apologies for the Holocaust” and from antisemitism which is not the same thing. By the way I agree Dieudonné – whom I have met and whose ideas I intensely disagree with – should not have been persecuted as he was. But mockery of religion was NOT the issue.
Most of all, though, I think the issue that is forgotten is that the marches in France were not so massive because of the number of victims. They were massive because the French population felt that their fundamental values were under attack. I live there and can tell you that the worry about the future of liberty was everywhere. And it’s important to know that it was not ONLY about freedom of expression, but also about equality – people were not just protesting against Al Qaeda but also against all attempts to use the murders to further an anti-Muslim agenda. Which is why the march in Paris was not called the “Free Speech” march, as Glenn writes, but the “Marche républicaine” – which in the French context explicitly means exclusion of xenophobic movements. The far-right Front National was the only political party expressly not invited to the march. It was not principally a march to commemorate victims, but to defend core values.
The law protects against “anti-semitism”, not against mockery of religion but there isn’t an equivalent law to protect the Muslim minority as far as I am aware.
I understand the marches were not xenophobic in nature. I have no problem with any of the marchers or anyone sympathising with the cause, in fact I support them. I only have a problem with the excessive media and governmental focus on violence by radical Muslims as the primary threat to our lives, freedom and values. I don’t want to see the good cause you’ve described being used by corporate media for propaganda purposes.
Which is also why it’s so wrong that Glenn and others are attempting to place CH outside the world of respectable politics, making Klan analogies etc. For Glenn and others, they think supporting CH necessarily also supports neocon/Zionist/Islamophobic agendas.
So, when all these Zios run around ranting “Je suis Charlie,” one of the CH’s Zionism pieces should be shoved in their face with a loud “Me too!” But can you link to a good example? I found this collection: https://www.google.com/search?q=Charlie+Hebdo+Zionist+cartoons&newwindow=1&rlz=1C1RNAN_enUS512US512&biw=960&bih=502&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=Y54_VdCxGoeZNvHsgagI&ved=0CB0QsAQ (these aren’t all CH) and only a few involved Zionists/Jews.
How many of the hand-wringers here understand French, know anything about French culture, had regularly read Charlie Hebdo, or even knew of its existence before the assassinations?
Personally, I am NOT an expert, but I have read enough to know that Charlie Hebdo’s ‘humour’ was notoriously ‘second degree’, that like many press cartoons there were multiple cultural references, and that taking it at face value is thus naive if not wilfully stupid.
Yes, it was offensive, yes they revelled in blasphemy, no I wouldn’t buy it, but no they did not uniquely and uniformly ‘target’ Muslims, and in fact I’d say they didn’t target Muslims at all. They targeted religion and the notion that they should be cowed by religious dictates. Of course, I wouldn’t expect devout Muslims to see the difference between ‘targeting Islam’ and ‘targeting Muslims’, because their identity is so bound up in an all-encompassing faith. But I’d have expected a bit more subtility from writers here.
Maybe it’s because the States has its own, parallel, history which makes you hyper-sensitive to the slightest hint of anything that looks like racism. But there is often context, even though some will refuse to acknowledge it. Many years ago, at school, we would occasionally call our friend Vikram a ‘Paki’. With zero malice. In fact, it was because using that word ‘racistly’ would have been so outrageous that, in context, it was clearly meant differently. If you thought police had turned up at that point in time, what chance would you have had of understanding what was going on?
Isn’t this just another permutation of the famous American Interventionism which is ostensibly decried in these pages?
“Everything is a fair object of critique”, much like the commitment to “objective news”, is moral advertizing. But in reality there is ‘no view from nowhere’, in journalism or satire. What there is, is a point of view</I. Hebdo's POV, like any other, is contextual. And within that contextualized POV, topics are chosen, avoided or ignored. If *everything* was an object of critique, then the question of fairness, let alone valence, wouldn't come to mind in the first place. It's precisely the question of fairness that informs the character of any given piece of satire. And it cuts to the core of the 'free speech' fetish. As Garry Trudeau writes. "At some point free expression absolutism becomes childish and unserious. It becomes its own kind of fanaticism."
I go a step further. It becomes a tribal identifier. In the concentration on Hebdo, we see how Western liberals sublimate their identification with massively violent Empire. The freedom of speech, much like human rights, become the pretext to identify with a clash of civilizations, in lieu of identifying with the "greatest purveyor of violence in the world today".
No one is listening, the drones are too loud. As Eisenberg says, this is just an extension of a “parochial, irrelevant, misconceived, misdirected, relatively trivial, and more or less obsolete campaign against clericalism.”
The award, much less a call to attention, is quite raw in it’ projection. “Empire? What Empire? Our values are under attack!”. This fundamental deflection, conscious and unconscious, is essential to the prosecution of endless war.
Barely a decade since liberals were accused of being a fifth column. The plasticity of the “empire state of mind” is truly fucking remarkable.
@Mona
I stole that line from your from your conversation with bahhummingbug.
What exactly is “wrong” with Glenn’s position on this issue? I thought Glenn’s problem is that he isn’t fond of CH’s brand of satire. I didn’t think that he was out to ban their right to speech. Seem more like a matter of taste than right or wrong. Glenn is one of the fiercest freedom of speech advocates I’ve ever come across in the media, and I understand that I may not be quite as widely read as some.
Michael Hayden once said that “rectal rehydration” was a “medical procedure” administered to detainees for their health. Faced with this brilliant and unique insight, the Obama administration had no choice but to appoint General Hayden as head of the Federal Bureau of Prisons, in order to better deliver “medical treatment” to the ever increasing crop of the penitent.
Hayden is another neocon tentacle.
AdversarialArt.com
From barncat, who has accused Glenn Greenwald of taking the position he takes in the above column for venal and opportunistic reasons:
Wrong. Morning’s Minion: https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/04/27/writers-withdraw-pen-gala-protest-award-charlie-hebdo/#comment-126899
And others on Twitter. You also do not know from who he’s hearing by email.
More importantly, I assure you, barncat, I know to the core of my being that Glenn absolutely believes what he’s saying. I find it almost impossible to wrap my head around that he does, but I am certain of it.
He and I have had an extensive email exchange over these issues, and we have simply had to conclude we are at that rather infrequent place where we — both from places of good faith — come to starkly opposite positions.
So, enough of this nonsense about Glenn taking public stands out of some base political calculation. It’s not happening, at all.
It is worth noting that “fighting words” are NOT protected by the US constitution.
The offense of Charlie Hebdo is that it engages in targeted insults which are the pictoral equivalent of fighting words (just as were Nazi posters depicting Jews as rats — which all right-thinking persons leap to loudly condemn).
Freedom of expression cannot be censored by government merely because it may offend someone But free speech can surely be censored by private citizens who refuse to honor it (or even acknowledge it) when it plainly has little other intended (and accomplished) purpose than to deliberately offend.
Um, no. Not gonna go into a formal analysis of what’s not true, but it isn’t (yes, I’m an American lawyer).
Glenn Greenwald is also a lawyer and he doesn’t at all believe that what Charlie Hebdo published should be illegal.
They’re protected up till they meet the Brandenburg v. Ohio definition. Government cannot punish inflammatory speech unless that speech is directed to inciting, and is likely to incite, imminent lawless action.
The KKK is a legal entity. And people like Glen Greenwald will defend to the end, their right to free speech, however unpalatable it may be to the vast majority (one of the reasons so many of us love Glenn). Compared to the KKK what the hell is Charlie Hebdo? Fighting words or not, you and I don’t have to like it, but they have every right to say whatever they wish.
But because they have a right to say/draw anything, doesn’t mean they have a right to be celebrated by the intelligentsia. Honored they needn’t be. But censored, they most definitely should not be.
I understand your frustration, and I surely cannot understand what it must be like to be a French Muslim, to be publicly humiliated on a regular basis. But it’s an ugliness that has to be allowed, honored or not.
@ Mona … whose slightest touch commands me.
>”Perhaps you and Glenn could explain what you agree is “dangerous” about the slaughter of the Charlie Hebdo staff?”
You know: Fanatic, extreme, weak-willed (minded) religious (insert one) nutcases armed with automatic weapons and apocalyptic visions = “dangerous”. *It was also ‘vile and repugnant’ … though I’m loath to put words in Glenn’s mouth./
I’m still pondering on Glenn’s description of Charlie Hedbo as ‘muslim-bashing satire’… but I think it’s at least foolish, if not bad taste, to spit into the wind. *Is there a ‘foolish’ cartoon award or something?
In any case, the main point I was agreeing with was that I, for one, would never kilt nobody over a ignorant cartoon (and CH had some really ignorant cartoons) … and I hope you wouldn’t kilt me for saying so./?
btw Mona. Brother West … he’s on my team too :)
Of course, I haven’t seen all of Charlie Hebdo’s cartoons, but I do know that many non-French people and non-French speakers — who don’t ‘understand the local political context that gives some of the cartoons their meaning — have said some grossly ignorant things about Charlie Hebdo and its cartoons.
At any rate, I do not find CH’s intent ignorant or repugnant, and certainly do not find those qualities in any number of their cartoons that I have seen.
But I’ll tell you what *I* find dangerous: artists and satirists living under threats and a dozen of them seeing their office turned into an abattoir. And then fellow leftists and/or supporters of free speech falling all over themselves to avoid sympathizing with, much less admiring, these fallen people.
I don’t know Dr. West’s feelings on the matter, but if they are the same as Glenn’s, then that makes two men whom I admire a great deal who are desperately wrong on this issue.
Although I can certainly sympathize with the brutal loss of life, I thought some of Charlie Hebdo’s ‘satire’, especially wrt ‘Islam/muslims’, left much to be desired. I was not particularly admiring of their work.
>”But I’ll tell you what *I* find dangerous: artists and satirists living under threats and a dozen of them seeing their office turned into an abattoir. And then fellow leftists and/or supporters of free speech falling all over themselves to avoid sympathizing with, much less admiring, these fallen people.”
Al-Alwaki was exorcising his ‘free speech’ too, mona. I didn’t see many of your ‘fellow leftists and/or supporters of free speech falling all over themselves’ sympathizing with, much less admiring, him either.
Well you saw me outraged over his murder. But Alwaki was calling for violent resistance, even terrorism against the innocent. Charlie Hebdo, by contrast, was both advocating for the rights of France’s Muslim immigrants and against the fascists aligned against them in that country. But Charlie is also in a particular tradition in which *religion, of an sort, get’s subjected to the pervasive French anti-clerical value.
That value has historically been noble and beneficent (if recently out of control with illiberal restrictions on religious garb). In my opinion, my strong opinion, it remains mostly so. For CH to adopt an “Islam exception” to their general antipathy to the various irrational and benighted claims of organized religions would be untenable and a total cop-out. To do it out of fear of assassins would be craven; that they have not is worth my admiration, and all the glory to be bestowed upon them by PEN.
Well … here’s a good one https://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;_ylt=AwrB8pNSET9V524ANw8unIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTIzaWJodWFhBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1nBG9pZAMwNmZhZTBkNjk2NGNlMDc4OGFjYjVhZWQ1MDU4NWFhYwRncG9zAzY0BGl0A2Jpbmc-?.origin=&back=https%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fyhs%2Fsearch%3Fp%3DCharlie%2BHebdo%2BCartoons%26fr%3Dyhs-mozilla-003%26hsimp%3Dyhs-003%26hspart%3Dmozilla%26nost%3D1%26tab%3Dorganic%26ri%3D64&w=2515&h=1300&imgurl=theredphoenix.files.wordpress.com%2F2012%2F09%2Fwest-double-standard-on-jews-muslims.gif&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Ftheredphoenixapl.org%2F2012%2F09%2F26%2Fpolitical-cartoons-cartoon-suggestions-for-charlie-hebdo-wests-double-standard-on-mocking-muslims-jews%2F&size=82.6KB&name=Political+%3Cb%3ECartoons%3C%2Fb%3E%3A+%3Cb%3ECartoon%3C%2Fb%3E+Suggestions+for+%3Cb%3ECharlie%3C%2Fb%3E+%3Cb%3EHebdo%3C%2Fb%3E+%E2%80%93+West%E2%80%99s+…&p=Charlie+Hebdo+Cartoons&oid=06fae0d6964ce0788acb5aed50585aac&fr2=&fr=yhs-mozilla-003&tt=Political+%3Cb%3ECartoons%3C%2Fb%3E%3A+%3Cb%3ECartoon%3C%2Fb%3E+Suggestions+for+%3Cb%3ECharlie%3C%2Fb%3E+%3Cb%3EHebdo%3C%2Fb%3E+%E2%80%93+West%E2%80%99s+…&b=61&ni=160&no=64&ts=&tab=organic&sigr=14ej6mjmk&sigb=14c0g63l5&sigi=12ipbs2ga&sigt=136mb38e4&sign=136mb38e4&.crumb=csOfdBuOa9m&fr=yhs-mozilla-003&hsimp=yhs-003&hspart=mozilla
I know you were outraged over the Al-Alwaki murder. I’m just concerned over why Charlie Hedbo should be the PEN standard bearer for courage of free expression? I submit Al-Alwaki, e.g., had more to fear.
Re the firing of Charles Siné from Hebdo… here is some history….In 1982, ….Siné gave an interview on the radio during which he stated: “Yes, I am anti-Semitic and I am not scared to admit it […] I want all Jews to live in fear, unless they are pro-Palestinian. – Let them die.” ….
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/aug/03/france.pressandpublishing
I don’t recall any Hebdo cartoons implying that Muslims should die en masse. – there are many cartoons implying the same thing about Jews.
Outside of obscure corners of the Internet populated by Nazis, where? [color me skeptical]
@ Mona
Is that bad that offensive cartoons against Jews or any other groups are rare?
In my experience, and contrary to Charles Rivers’ claim, cartoons implying that Jews should die en masse are almost never seen online. It’s likely that they appear in some of the venues we normal people do not visit, suchs as obscure neo-Nazi sites, but otherwise, I see no evidence of lots of cartoons calling for the death of Jews.
From PEN’s nominating statement:
that writers could take exception to such an unassailable example of courage, of the ability to put teeth into the idea of free speech is beyond bewildering. To show up on the crime scene, one still literally bloody, in order to support fallen colleagues takes courage and commitment, and animates the concept of free speech with extraordinary energy and meaning.
I have been consistently and passionately critical of the anti-Islamic bashing that happens everywhere, including bastions of the left; I despise Holocaust deniers and the KKK, but this is an issue that transcends the particulars. It is about the sanctity of free speech, itself, and there is no such entity if that phrase carries an asterisk next to the claim. These six writers have every right to voice their discomfort with CH’s subject matter and approach –and those are feelings I share –but they belong to an organization whose raison d’être is championing free speech and the power of the pen. If they cannot see the contradiction between PEN’s stated mission and their stance in this instance, perhaps they should reconsider their membership, because there really is something “off’ in their grasp of what free speech looks like and means if they think boycotting this event is in line with PEN’s charter. Free speech is not tidy or predictable, and is not and never has been synonymous with being inoffensive.
A culture that appropriates the right to censure others thoughts and modes of expression is a culture in crisis. I wish we could address the well nigh insane proposition that banning speech is a victim-less crime or harmless. It speaks to an insidious and radical power that usurps rights so fundamental they can’t be categorized. Speech is the audible manifestation of thought; who dare anyone assume they can dictate which thoughts are acceptable and deserve airing and which aren’t? I’d far rather be offended and know what someone thinks than listen to an orchestrated silence designed to promulgate a fairy tale about social justice where there is none. It seems nearly impossible to me that anyone who deals in issues of communication, language, exchange (which is everyone, of course) cannot figure out that the impulse and means necessary to control free speech (and in Europe you can be imprisoned for hate speech) are as dangerous as what others say.
Far better to hear ideas, be provoked, be offended and be moved to debate or action–to challenge ideas one finds offensive– than to dictate what is acceptable. On this issue, Christopher Hitchens was absolutely fundamentally right. And no one should have to die for that proposition.
Sorry for all the typos (for the love of something or other, what does it take to get an edit function?) and I should clarify that this isn’t directed at anyone in particular. I’ve now read hundreds of posts on TG on the topic and it spilled over into thinking about how imperiled free speech really is.
Minion, you are my soul-sister. That was beautiful, and above all, true.
You just sucked off a corpse, and not a very nice one.
There is nothing courageous about Hebdo or Hitchens wallowing in the government-supported zeitgeist of Islamophobia. If any journalists are to be awarded for courage, let them be chosen from those who have challenged truly powerful interests and risked being branded or prosecuted as anti-Semites or traitors.
The new 4M CH was “under the mantra ‘All is Forgiven’”? A mantra, really? As the Brits say eloquently: “if you US left knowledge about satire, why did you leave your colony?”
I wrote below:
To which Glenn answered:
1. Not so. Some do and won’t come out and say it, altho at least one commenter here has.
2. Using the Klan in your “thought experiment” isn’t intended to inspire rational thinking on the controversy.
Minin, really, you got a reply from Glenn? Wow. Now shut up. It was satirical.
What nonsense. “Charlie Hebdo” attacked everyone worthy of attack. not just muslims but fascists and christians and racists and on and on. You people need to get a grip. This is an embarrassment to all liberals.
Lax security, you pretentious blowhard. And the ‘police officer’ was assigned as a ‘personal bodyguard to protect him, as in Stephane “Charb” Charbonnier. The other officer was responding to the scene of of the crime when he was massacred. The fact that the security implemented (after his original offices were ‘fire-bombed’) amounted to a token guard and a punch-code entry system, exposes his ignorance with respect to protecting the lives of his associates, which should have been his first priority.
“I don’t have kids, no wife, no car, no debt,” he once told France’s Le Monde newspaper. “Maybe it’s a little POMPOUS to say, but I’d rather die standing than live on my knees.” -charb
An Extreme Security My Fuk`n Ass Production
It’s possible I’m conflating what I read about the extreme security in place after the slaughter with the lesser that preceded it. Apparently Stéphane Charbonnier had some police protection at home and office before, but his Algerian-immigrant domestic partner, Jeannette Bougrab, says it was inadequate:
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2903278/Girlfriend-murdered-Charlie-Hebdo-magazine-editor-says-knew-going-die-blames-police-failng-prevent-massacre.html#ixzz3YZgKwJl6
Conflation? I’d attribute your unsubstantiated sentiments to being bombastic in nature. The inadequacy that Ms Bougrab refers to was the responsibility of the deceased Stéphane Charbonnier, not the French police department whose officer perished while in the employ to protect him. He disregarded the lives of others by not providing the proper security to help keep them safe from the viable death threats that he was accountable for.
Who in their right mind would allow any ‘toddlers’ near a facility that was at risk of being firebombed, or for that matter, putting them at risk of being massacred based on death-threats to themselves?
Earlier, the attackers had mistakenly entered a different building where the paper’s archives were stored, thinking it was the publication’s main office. Where was the security at that could have warned the main office of this dumbfounded breach?
His negligence with respect to the lackluster security measures provided should be exposed for what they were..
Fuk`all.
#thedongerneedaccountability
No, I seldom make factual mistakes like that, bombast or no. I actively work not to do that.
Mr. suave… he had a constant guard of two officers. The second was a door or two away during the few seconds the massacre took place. When you talk about “lackluster security” it was, in this case, at least as effective as your average day at the White House. This the argument you want to make, that the only issue here is that security was lax? You should have taken the opportunity to ask President Reagan about his own responsibility in getting shot due, obviously, to his “lackluster security.” You are sounding uncomfortably wierd.
The debate continues and continues over something absolutely irrelevant to the killings. The assassins were very clear as to why they committed a terrorist act and they fully intended it to be a high-profile terrorist act. There was absolutely no issue about Charlie Hebdo’s point of view. That was never mentioned. They killed the staff of a journal that published an image of Mohammed. The vast majority of the Islamic faith in France were horrified by this unspeakable act and rose to oppose it. The record is clear. Mr. Greenwald is irresponsibly interjecting into this bloodbath another issue which was never a topic in the days following this atrocity.
France has the highest Arab-origin population of any country in Europe. Their policy of accepting immigration from former foreign colonies, the UK and Holland have the same policy, has made Islam the second largest religion in France. How France has succeeded in integrating these minorities has been debated for decades. Greenwald and the happy majority here can join in this continuing debate but what cannot be denied is that the terrorist act has absolutely nothing to do with this debate. Combine the two is, at least, intellectually flacid. And hearing Americans argue about France’s poor treatment of French immigrants when America’s GNP for the first 80 years was principally based on slave labor is particularly entertaining.
-Mona- “The French values and traditions Charlie Hebdo is steeped in are among that nation’s — and the West’s — more noble qualities. “
The problem is that France’s noble tradition of “laïcité” was born out of the struggle to wrestle control of the nation from the all powerful Catholic church. Now, years later, in a multi-cultural, multi-faith France, that paradigm of secularism is being turned against a discriminated minority of descendent of former colonials, people of African ancestry, people who are Muslim. The result is not so noble.
“France’s Secularism Is Driving Young Muslims Out Of School, Work And French Culture
PARIS — The day after the terror attack at Charlie Hebdo, 18-year-old Maroi — who asked to be identified by only her first name — arrived at her public school in the 14th arrondissement to find a wall covered with huge copies of the magazine’s cartoons mocking the Prophet Muhammad. A Muslim, she was offended but kept quiet, because now to be considered French, she said, you have to “be Charlie.” This has left Maroi and many other young French Muslims feeling like there’s no place for them in France and imagining a future where Muslims create their own separate space within the steadfastly secular nation.”
http://www.ibtimes.com/frances-secularism-driving-young-muslims-out-school-work-french-culture-1789258
I don’t disagree with much of that — the aggressive secularism in France is fundamentally illiberal. People should be able to, for instance, wear the clothing they prefer, in private or public.
Ypou say this:
The problem with the Catholic Church did not stop at its political power and wealth. It included it’s norms. It’s rejection of intellectual freedom, including the right to “blaspheme” and utter “heresy” as well as unbelief — and it’s preachments about pelvic issues. Rigid Islam has in common with Catholicism illiberal norms and on that level is a legitimate target of the same French Enlightenment spirit that said of the Catholic clergy: “écrasez l’infâme.”
Let’s see a show of hands. Below, lastnamechosen had this to say:
Who thinks Stéphane Charbonnier and his fellow slaughtered colleagues are usefully analogized to the Ku Klux Klan? If I agree that awarding a murdered Klansman for his speech would not cause me to wish him to receive a courage award, what should that imply vis-a-vis my position on Stéphane Charbonnier’s assassination?
Who thinks one would see all the caveats, diffidence and hand-wringing contained in the public explanations of the withdrawing authors if Stéphane Charbonnier had been the Grand Wizard of a Klavern?
[mistakenly posted as a reply below]
The meaningful analogy is not between Charlie and the Klan; it is between the Klan’s hate speech and Charlie’s. Both, clearly, *are* hate speech.
I would argue that both ought to be protected from government sanction. And I would argue that those who indulge in either form should expect that their targets will sometimes be very unhappy and very angry.
Neither is “deserving” of reward or award — IMHO, of course.
So blasphemy now constitutes hate speech? Was “The Last Temptation of Christ” also hate speech?
Stéphane Charbonnier’s satire was just like Klan speech?
“Stéphane Charbonnier’s satire was just like Klan speech?”
Of course. It was absolutely just like it, in the eyes of the people who felt themselves and their religion victimized by it. How can it be so hard for some of you to understand this?
“If you believe that — and thank you, many do who won’t admit it — there is no possibility of productive discussion between us on this issue.”
If you don’t come to understand that, there is no possibility of your being other than an unwitting contributor to vile provocation and the consequential, sometimes violent, response.
“But I do note you didn’t address these questions:”
Because they are silly and irrelevant attempts at building a straw man. And they are, nonetheless, already answered:
If the victims believe it is hate speech, for all practical purposes it is. And, if you persist in celebrating it, you persist in provoking hatred and the resulting violence.
Now, let’s drop it. I find this sort of defiant ignorance on the part of bright people really depressing.
“If the victims believe it is hate speech, for all practical purposes it is”
This is the essence of Politically Correct madness, the elevation of sensitivity above truth, feelings beyond fact. You nailed it. Your thoughts and words are deeply offensive to me as an intelligent, rationale human being, please cease communicating them . I’m OFFENDED.
No, they are not, and that translates into: “I don’t like where I must go if I directly answer your inquiries, so I won’t.”
Ah, the heckler’s veto writ large. Listen, a guy names Bill Donohue has a job for someone like you at the Catholic League, where it’s all anti-Catholicism seen all the time. He’ll especially like that you beg the question and start out by conceding his victim status.
Mr Salzmann, I feel victimized by your comments.
Please send me the address of your lawyer so that I can sue you for the offense.
Alternatively your home address and I can send a hit squad.
I refuse to respond to any stonewalling accusations even if it appears to further the allegations themselves ~ GG
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vz1ItSMBhhc
Flip the left winger!
Trap accepted: #AskMona
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pZHXr4FE44
Even if I did agree with your views GG on the suppossed offensive nature of CH’s cartoons, once they were murdered for publishing them it makes this attempt at reaching the perfect balance of the argument not only slightly ridiculous but also dangerous.
When you say ‘yes the crimes were horryfic BUT the cartoons were also offensive’ then the BUT its already big enough for the justification of the said killings, even if its not intended. The killers and all the very many that believe the killings justified can fit very nicely into that BUT that you so asiduosly propose, dont you feel uneasy in such company?
In any other time, any other context you could have been right to point out these contradicitions and double standards regarding the muslim faith but once they were murdered for excersising, and even abusing, their freedom of speech then your argument becomes purely academic. In fact its as reprehensible as you claim Sam Harris’s discourse to be, because to say the Islam is the motherload of bad ideas may be impractical or offensive but it is also an objective truth. Take away the worst aspects of it, lets put the worst extremes aside as the work of a few loonies. Still you are left that for all Islam women are inferior beings subject to the authority of the male figures.
It is so surprising that you can’t see it that I sense that there is some part of intellectual vanity involved. Such strenuous effort you make to constantly prop up this self-righteous perfect-balance paradise that you apparently inhabit regarding this particular topic.
And how come you say that bashing muslims is ‘official policy’ in the west, does that include Europe? It proofs you know so little about Europe, its shocking that you can be so reckless to make such assertions. You really found CH biased against Islam ?? GG this is so dissapointing, you just dont know what you are talking about.
And please do not equate Israel’s land grab, the US’ messing of the entire Middle East in its never-ending quest for oil and other geopolitical fuck-ups that the unfortunate muslims have had to endure with the fact that in my country, if I say what I believe Islam really stands for, excersising my freedom of speech I would have to endure a very credible threat to my life, and that its not the case with any other religion.
I’m not going to bash Islam because I dont want to alienate my Muslims friends, because they are great people and I enjoy them, but they also respect me when I tell them, please dont come to me with that crap because I dont buy any of it, just dont waste my time with it. You dont try to impose your faith based notions on us then we wont need to tell you how utterly ridicuolus they are, exactly as we do with everybody else GG.
While I applaud you for shining a bit of light on the hypocritical practices of Western governments waving the freedom flag while denying people their freedoms, you do make one logical fallacy in your piece that I noticed. You note that Charlie Hebdo fired a person for making anti-Judaic content and (I suppose in an attempt to be wry) ask “where were the free speech advocates” when that happened.
Freedom of speech isn’t violated by a private magazine deciding to fire some one because they don’t like the content he produces. It is not even violated when the magazine fires some one for his political views. Freedom of speech is only violated when a person is prevented from publicly expressing his political views. Charlie Hebdo has a right to determine who will work for them – just as the Intercept has a right to determine who will work for it – and both can fire anyone they like for whatever reasons they like, including political ones.
Now, had this person been thrown in prison, fined, or otherwise punished by government for holding or expressing anti-Judaic principles, then we would have a violation of freedom of speech. If he was prevented from publishing antisemitic content, we would have a violation of freedom of speech.
As long as this person can go home, fire up a web browser, and publish his stuff on a blog freely without retribution from the government, no violation of free speech has occurred.
Your piece was lessened somewhat by this mistake.
“As long as this person can go home, fire up a web browser, and publish his stuff on a blog freely without retribution from the government, no violation of free speech has occurred.”
In France, s/he cannot.
1. GG did not say “1st Amendment,” did he? He is using free speech in a general context and is looking at an international phenomenon.
2. “Where were all the newfound free speech crusaders then” is what he actually said, and it clearly refers specifically to the people who are holding up Charlie Hebdo as a model of free expression, a shining beacon for the West, yadda yadda yadda.
<blockquote.2. “Where were all the newfound free speech crusaders then” is what he actually said, and it clearly refers specifically to the people who are holding up Charlie Hebdo as a model of free expression, a shining beacon for the West, yadda yadda yadda.</blockquote.
Yes, well, something happened in-between time. I had only vaguely heard of Charlie Hebdo until one day when a dozen of their staff ended up as carrion in a bloody scene of carnage at their office.
Drone strikes on innocent people are also scenes of bloody carnage, but to defend the innocent is not the same as saying it was ‘courageous’ of them to hold the particular beliefs they held. It is like saying Glenn supports the anti-gay authoritarianism of fundamentalist Islam because he doesn’t want believers to be killed for their proximity to those targeted by the West – beliefs or behaviors are neither courageous nor damnable in the framework of an argument that they should not be butchered. It is precisely the conflation of injustice with defense of the beliefs of those persecuted that Glenn is arguing against.
Except of course, it is courageous of them if they know they have a target on their backs and persist anyway. Stéphane Charbonnier knew there were good odds he’d be killed, and two years ago he said: “I’d rather die standing than live on my knees.”
And he did just that, for which I greatly admire him. He felt he was continuing the noble (not the ignoble ones) traditions of Voltaire, and that is also how I see it.
Eisenberg does a fantastic job of pointing out how cultural and political power must be factored in when it comes to satire. When all things are not equal, satire only finds its true mark on those who hold power. It is very cynical behavior to claim that cheap attacks on the Other should be seen as elevated speech acts. But we have been undermining the ability of satire to target the powerful for some time in the U.S. Right now, for example, we see many, many people–e.g., Mike Huckabee–who claim that Christianity is under attack, that secularization is causing moral decay (read, gay rights, freedom of expression for nonbelievers), and that legislation is needed to protect this “scorned” Christian underclass. When people demand that banks pay for what they did to bring about the recession, they are accused of starting a “class war.” No one, it seems, wants to admit to having power or influence. This plays very well into these politically motivated attempts to make Muslims out to be a monolithic group with enormous powers and whose only goal is to destroy the West. All of this not only obfuscates true power relations, but it also allows imperial desires to be seen as righteous.
From Eisenberg:
“I have read – and heard – that “equal opportunity offence” is the aspiration of Charlie Hebdo. But how is such an aspiration to be fulfilled unless the disparate “targets” of offence occupy an equal position and have an equivalent meaning within the dominant culture?
I don’t doubt that the Charlie Hebdo staff is, and was, entirely sincere in its anarchic expressions of principled disdain toward organized religion. But although the magazine apparently disdains all organized religion, certain expressions of anti-Semitism are illegal in France, so Judaism is out of bounds for satire. In fact, the author of a purported anti-Semitic slur in a 2008 Charlie Hebdo column was fired. Therefore, in pursuing its goal of inclusive mockery of large organized religions, at least those that have a conspicuous presence in France, Charlie Hebdo has been more or less confined to Catholicism and Islam.
But those two religions hold very different positions in France, as well as in most of the Western world. Catholicism, in its most regrettable European roles, has represented centuries of authoritarian repressiveness and the abuse of power, whereas Islam, in modern Europe, has represented a few decades of powerlessness and disenfranchisement. So in a contemporary European context, satires of Catholicism and satires of Islam do not balance out on a scale.”
Absolutely marvelous post, PI. Although I’m critical of this boycott, primarily because it is at complete odds with PEN’s stated mission, you raise provocative and important points. I couldn’t agree more about the “different positions” of power, and how that affects satire’s range and impact. So well said…
How can you possibly conflate anti-Semitism and satire about Judaism?
That’s truly the nut of it, I think. To paraphrase Tom Scocca “the centrist cuts himself off from the language of actual dispute”.
Men hate to be “orphaned,” “widowed,” or “worthless,”
But this is how kings and lords describe themselves.
For one gains by losing
And loses by gaining.
What others teach, I also teach; that is:
“A violent man will die a violent death!”
This will be the essence of my teaching.
http://www.wussu.com/laotzu/laotzu42.html
In my eyes Eisenberg doesn’t at all understand Charlie. The magazine delighted in mocking the holy cows of one and all – including those of its progressive readership. And it mostly concentrated on the holy cows of integrist movements.
Depicting the Prophet – at least by nonbelievers – is not punishable under most strains of Islam. Only the wahhabi version of Islam considers it punishable by death, and French Muslims do not hail from Saudi Arabia. The salafist ideology is neither powerless nor disenfranchised, it is rich and spreading, largely through violence and fear. Standing up to it is NOT insulting ordinary Muslims in France. As I’ve noted earlier, French Arabs in their vast majority didn’t give an f about Charlie Hebdo.
Charlie didn’t only take on integrist Catholics by mocking their religion, but also by satirizing the political movements they tend to adhere to, notably the Front National – always the main target of Charlie’s critiques.
Charlie didn’t mock Judaism, at least not often, but that point is rather moot because Jews, certainly in France, wouldn’t be offended in the slightest by cartoons depicting Abraham or any prophet. If you want to offend integrist Jews, you want to criticize their holy cow: Israel. And Charlie did that all right. A lot more than it ever mocked Islam.
And Charlie never fired anyone for an anti-Semitic slur; the guy (Siné) was fired for having insulted the Sarkozy family to whom the then-editor of the magazine was befriended. The antisemitism excuse for the firing was thrown out by the judge who awarded damages and no one in France took it seriously. Most importantly, Charlie Hebdo’s present staff as well as its murdered staff had nothing to do with that firing; raising it is a bit like blaming Angela Merkel for the Holocaust.
If CH criticized Israel, more power to them, but that is not at all what they are being honored for, is it?
With Freedom comes Responsibility.
Impressively to the actual point.
Yup, exactly.
Also consequences.
Are you and Cindy saying those slaughtered Charlie Hebdo artists deserved having their offices turned into an abattoir?
If not, then what is all this “responsibility” & “consequences” blather about?
Blather?
Thanks for returning my respect.
For a lawyer, you aren’t paying very close attention to the meaning of words, in this thread, Mona.
You are responsible for your speech and your speech may have consequences. Consequences are the results of actions or conditions. What is or isn’t “deserved” has nothing to do with it.
If you attack people’s most cherished beliefs, one of the possible, and historically not-unlikely, consequences is that they may attack you in response and may not limit their responsive attacks to modes you find acceptable.
It’s just a question of reality.
You approvingly said:
So, what is slaughter in an office? “Enhanced consequences?” #disgusting
The Killers did a horrible thing, unforgivably evil.
_______________________________________
Now to the incident before that, from the artists’ perspective:
The way I see it…Freedom is an extremely valuable thing to have, the most valuable even. As with all valuable things there is always a price to pay. Sad but true in this physical, material, universe.
Consider Responsibility the price of Freedom.
As long as you use your Freedom responsibly it will persist, if you stop paying (become irresponsible), your Freedom will dissipate. That’s where the oppressive concept of censorship originated, people weren’t paying their dues, they weren’t being responsible with their Freedom (not to say censorship is good, it’s not, but that’s another topic).
For example, say I know Two Men. The 1st doesn’t mind if I make fun of his Mum, while the 2nd Man takes it as a personal offense and an attack if I make fun of his Mum. Now, I know I have the Freedom to do anything I want, I can make fun of the 1st Man’s Mum or make fun of the 2nd Man’s Mum. I mean it’s just a joke to show them the Truth that their Mums are just Human. However, appreciating the beauty of Freedom, knowing that insulting him won’t get me anywhere, and being a responsible, decent Man myself…I won’t use it to Hurt him.
Now imagine if I was even more influential and I could make fun of the (2nd) Man’s Mum on TV, for the whole world to see and laugh at. And I did, over and over. I would be using my Freedom even more irresponsibly, plus it also exposed my lie:
If the whole point of my joke was to show him the Truth, help and enlighten him, then constantly humiliating him infront of everyone won’t really get us there, will it? … Of course not, it’s obviously not about enlightening him at all. I must have another, ulterior, motive. Maybe I hate him. Maybe I have Mummy problems myself. Either way, I was abusing my power. I used my Freedom and influence to destroy, not to build.
Freedom is a Power in a sense. Some would argue it’s even THE ultimate power we fight to attain, and maintain, our whole lives. As with any power people possess, some use it responsibly, some abuse it, some use it to build, some use it to hate, etc.
Using Freedom as a shield to spew hatred is cowardly and, more importantly, it is a danger to Freedom. People dedicate (and sacrifice) their whole lives to make sure we have as much Freedoms as possible. The least we should do is to not use our Freedom recklessly, but rather with utmost care and respect, to protect it. One way to protect it is to make sure it is not used as an excuse to commit evil acts, and when it inevitably is, we condemn those actions.
When the Shooters killed those artists, were they exercising their Freedom? No, because to us this is not really Freedom, not when it is used to commit evil acts. Same with the artists themselves. They weren’t trying to enlighten Muslims, they were trying to humiliate and insult them. Using Freedom to excuse hatred. Both abused their Freedom to act, and used it for evil.
Using Freedom in such manipulative ways turns Freedom into something ugly, which is quite the feat, really.
On a different note, I think the Killers deserve the Courage Award, they slaughtered all those people to regain their dignity IN SPITE of knowing that, more or less, the Whole World and the Global Press would attack them mercilessly for it. The Brave Souls.
(sarcasm)
Cindy, your reply to “With Freedom comes Responsibility” in the context of 12 slaughtered journos and cartoonists is not especially evocative of respect.
Thanks, Glenn, for your commitment to exposing the hypocricy wherever it rears its ugly head. I am hearing more and more people at least listening, with some quoting your efforts. Unfortunately the majority of the people are still dining at their table of lies. The cracks in the system, however, are getting harder for even its most ardent supporters to ignore and the issue that finally breaks the levee will probably surprise even those that see the inevitable paradigm shift which of necessity must happen if we are to have a liveable society. A collapse of society is a fearsome possibility which noone should gleefully pursue, yet at this point, a very real possibility, nonetheless. Love the cover photo with all the noble world leaders locking arms in defiant solidarity. What a show.
This discussion needs to be reminded of reality vs. blather. Reality: it is fact that the atrocious killings was not a protest from a disenfranchised minority. Stop that fabrication. These were trained, dedicated terrorists who aimed to slaughter and make a historic point for a particular form of radical Islam. To even bother to mention Charlie Hebdo and the issue of any cultural disenfranchisement is intellectually vulgar. Reality: “Freedom of expression” allowed an artist to exhibit his work, a crucifix in a jar of piss. If any here do not like that, they are free to protest but need to understand that, in the United States, this is Constitutional. Nobody can point to a single example in Charlie Hebdo that was even a small fraction so confrontational. Until you do, refrain from posting. Reality: the single – only – issue for the conference room bloodbath, made particularly clear by the perpetrators, was that the magazine printed a visual image of Mohammed which they view as prohibited. Images of Mohammed are often seen throughout the Islamic world and this is a fact. In certain conservative regions, it is a serious violation but in other regions where Islam is predominate, it is tolerated. Those famous six thoughtful authors are agreeing, clearly, that those murders were authorized because of that particular offense. Does everyone here think a crucifix in a jar of piss deserves mindless murder? Sounds like a clear majority here, and those 6 authors, would approve of the murder of Andres Serrano. It is not Christian, it is not Islam, it is hate.
Sort of “If you’re not with us (Charlie Hebdo), you’re with the terrorists.”
Well, thanks for chiming in, George W Bush.
By the way, your paintings are crap. In my opinion.
Arguably, yes, if you begrudge the slaughtered artists and their publication an award for courage. They knew before, they knew after, and they still know they are in danger for their Mohammed cartoons. They have long required extreme security at work and in private. And finally many were slaughtered — yet they persist in exercising the freedom to blaspheme.
I admire that a great deal.
Well, I respect your opinion even if I don’t agree with it. I can’t say that about folks who don’t really think things thru, but I certainly can about you.
Then why did they not have any security?
They did have security. As I recall, there were two cops on duty that morning and they were changing shifts or something. However it happened, the security failed.
As I said, there was no security.
They had security — especially after a fire-bombing in 2011– but it clearly wasn’t enough.
Two years before hi murder, Charlie Hebdo editor Stéphane Charbonnier said: ” I prefer to die standing up than live on my knees.”
He did.
No security? Get educated. A police officer assigned to protect was one of the twelve victims in the press room. Another was killed on the street.
Too bad about your taste in art. If you had brought the “Piss Christ” when it first came out in 1987, your retirement would be all financed now.
Also Cindy, you should know that the circulation of Charlie Hebdo before the attack was around 30,000. The next issue had a run of three million. Sorry your friends did not succeed in their goal.
Ha-ha, little do you know I am practicing my love, forgiveness and patience with you, as you think my opinion aligns me with violent people.
Take that! And that!
Love bombs, in your face!
Strictly: only for Cindy…!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdJ27RynTnQ
Vex Doll X
Nobody here is “friends” of the murderers of the Charlie Hebdo staff. Indeed, most of us are usually in agreement, but this issue is obviously different.
Some come down on the side of free speech and the tradition of anti-religion satire in the West, and others come down against what they term “punching down” against a marginalized people and their religion. How one feels about the PEN award to Charlie Hebdo seems largely correlated to whether one is in the former or latter camp.
I’ve read all related articles, and there’s nothing to add, really. One thing perhaps : since the january attacks, Charlie Hebdo – which, prior to the event, was close to bankrupcy – has been sitting on a war chest of $ 32 million in various “gifts”. Not sure whether this “super-PAC” is entirely made up of contributions by average Joes. Once again, it’s not so much about the cartoonists themselves (who were useful idiots till the end), rather about the little clique around them. French neocons – one in particular, one Norman Finkelstein ridiculed more than once – have very elaborate closed networks, and these networks stretch as far the USA…
’tis these networks of corrupt warmongers and destroyers of democracy that make Shawn’s observation so acute, in France as much as in the US. And that’s the tragedy !
The award is for courage in continuing to draw the prophet Mohammed despite warnings that this was forbidden by one of the world’s many religions and warnings that continued violations of that religion’s rules would result in death. The award is not for what the magazine said about religions, or about the followers of religions.
PEN has championed the causes of writers all over the world. It does not limit itself to the West or to Western opinion. While it is generally safer to say controversial things in the West, when opponents of drawing Mohammed carry out killings in the West and not just in countries where drawing Mohammed is against the law, it is courageous to draw Mohammed in whatever country one happens to be in.
Apparently some people feel that the PEN award should be given for courage in exercising freedom of the sort of speech that they agree with, not freedom of speech per se. And apparently there are two kinds of courage, one commendable and one “reckless”. Commendable courage is the kind that doesn’t ruffle enough feathers to get you killed. When people are so mad they kill you for what you said, apparently you were acting with reckless courage and you don’t deserve an award for courage. Apparently, people who are commendably courageous stay within the rules of allowable behavior that a religion tries to enforce against people who don’t belong to that religion.
You seem to be insisting Charlie Hebdo *must* be recognized as courageous.
If someone disagrees with this, and says that in their opinion it can’t be supported in this awarding way because some of what the cartoonists did was irresponsible and could give a greased track to bigotry that was more frowned on previously, you will have none of it! You say, pretty much: “Call them courageous, or you’re not really a free speech advocate!”
People should be more aware that if there’s one thing Glenn Greenwald doesn’t like, it’s being told what he must think or do.
I’m glad Wallace Shawn told you something any 23 year old in DC could tell you. Beyond that compelling point, outlandish boycotts by organizations that don’t matter is how they get press.
A few comments and concerns on a very complicated subject.
1) If there would be any time in recent history to recognize more individuals for ‘freedom of expression and courage’ in advancing free speech by whatever methods possible that are non-violent, this would be the time. Binney, Drake, Manning, Assange, Snowden, Poitras, Greenwald, and many others come to mind.
2) The politics involved in this specific ‘award’ seems typical at this level of ‘recognition’ – and much like the White House Correspondents Dinners, the PEN organization seems seriously to be facing the same type of irrelevancy if it becomes co-opted by government interests (any more than it already is, which itself seems unclear).
3) But, those listed in #1 aren’t politically correct (in the right way, it seems) and although I do think the award to Hebdo was warranted it leaves these others (some American, and those exposing distinct American/corporate interests that government officials wanted kept secret) on the sidelines of the war on terror’s governmental/corporate agenda of “collecting-it-all, knowing-it-all, and owning-it-all”
In other words, there are many too many unsung heroes left “in the world who have fought courageously (and been imprisoned, or who’ve died) in the face of adversity for the right to freedom of expression.”
Lastly, this dialog on just this one topic concerning just this one award has sparked probably more serious debate in public about what American institutions should be doing and why they should do it than all of the congressional level hearings on Middle East wars and NSA spying combined.
Let the public debates continue.
Glenn Greenwald and Laura Poitras won PEN awards in 2014.
“many others come to mind.” ~ SP
Silly,mona etc
#Fan
Thanks, Mona. Yes, Greenwalds’ and Poitras’ were awarded the “First Amendment Award” not “Freedom of Expression Courage Award” – the latter which all of those I listed above (and more) in my opinion deserve. Shows how much I pay attention (or really care at this level) about the specific ‘award’ categories. You do know how much I like labels and pigeonholes, and, to a large extent, this is just another example of that, in my opinion.
Anyway, too many people and not enough ‘awards’ or recognition (and more importantly) not enough reasoned dialog about what we should all be trying to do to effectively push-back against the over-zealous police state.
As seen with this article’s subject matter, it’s very easy to push these kinds of confrontational buttons, and it does affect dialog to some extent as I noted above, yet it’s much harder to resolve what’s being discussed. Knee-jerk reactionaries, and all that. Gotta’ be in it for the long haul, I suppose.
Forced to choose, I do think the First Amendment award is more appropriate for Glenn and Laura than the free expression and courage award. Their work so totally implicated free press issues the former is apt.
Charlie Hebdo, by contrast, was living under personal and office security, and had been fire-bombed in ’11. They knew it was dangerous to their lives to continue publishing blasphemy, but did so anyway.
And a dozen of them died for it. THAT merits a courage award.
I agree.
I agree, Mona, and didn’t mean to suggest otherwise. As I indicated in my initial, poorly written post, I do think the award was awarded appropriately in this case, and that more such recognition should be handed out in the many different categories that PEN awards are awarded (of which my prior ignorance of clearly showed) to more people around the world (most know better than I who they are) and that many more awards should be created for those that don’t have an award category that fits their particular contributions to an open and honest society in the current award paradigm, as well as to address the reality which is simply the fact that there aren’t enough awards to go around for all of the overlooked yet otherwise deserving recipients in the first place.
thanks Glenn for this all too true article….i’ve been noticing how Governments everywhere appear to be focusing negatively on Muslims as well…very frustrating to deal with, if one is a person who believes in the principles of Justice…and fairness….
and of course this discrimination against Muslims results in a self-fulfilling prophecy that more people will be radicalised….which further turns the screw down on all members of the religion…
Glenn writes below:
Yes, of course, because there is no intellectual or artistic kinship or artistic there and the merest suggestion of one is absurd.
Charlie Hebdo is not anything like the Klan; it’s long history has been devoted to a particular French style of enlightenment satire in which blasphemy is committed and religion is mocked, even as they uphold the political rights of the oppressed and ridicule the rightwing. And because as you admit, slaughtering people for the ideas they state is dangerous, and because knowing this danger Charlie Hebdo persisted in blasphemy and mocking Islam, it thoroughly meris the PEN Award.
The six authors pulling out also know these things. For you’d never see the diffidence several of them are showing if this was about a PEN award to the KKK.
My kingdom for a preview or edit function.
Charlie Hebdo should get a free speech award every year, in perpetuity.
Greenwald is western hating, islamo apologist.
Full marks to PEN.
The idea that the weak can’t be subject to criticism, satire, ridicule or insult(except by constantly reminding them how weak they are) is frankly embarrassing.
If you are going to treat people like children, then treat them like children–but I don’t mean ‘running through the mall screaming because I just can’t say no to my precious darlings’ type of children. Impose some fucking discipline and morality.
The best thing about programming and specifically open source programming is that you either very soon see criticism as God’s gift to humanity, or you crash and burn and disappear. People are working for you for free finding bugs in your software. How awesome is that? Non-programmers are way behind the curve on this one–they still get very angry at people bearing gifts.
Criticism, especially the kind you remember, is the greatest gift of all. Enemies are made friends, or at least useful, and you soon see the ‘kindness’ of friendship as its greatest weakness.
Who has enough love to criticize a friend as you would criticize an enemy?
One last thing to remember–a friend is always your equal. Now ask yourself–what do you really offer the weak?
Software can be modified and improved. People can’t. However, with a lot of effort they can hide their flaws. Then someone comes along and points out the flaws for everyone to see. That isn’t doing anybody any favors.
“Now ask yourself–what do you really offer the weak?”
I think what Glenn and those he’s supporting here are trying to establish is some degree of buffer or protection for the marginalized – against institutionalized bigotry masquerading as free speech, in consideration of the establishment’s warmongering and racial profiling leveled at Muslims which glides ahead easily on clever propaganda.
With its indifference to Black Lives Matter, propaganda from the state portrays blacks who protest as unreasonable maniacs (just as the state disgraced the Occupy movement by portraying them as know-nothing hippies), and this is similar. What Glenn is attempting, I believe, is pushback against institutionalized prejudice.
https://xkcd.com/810/
You finally have bad people saying the right thing for the wrong reason, and so the right thing now becomes the wrong thing because the wrong people are using it against the wrong people for the wrong reason.
Situational ethics is exhausting.
A better question: Who are you trying to train to do what?
You lost me there. I honestly don’t understand what you’re saying or implying.
@Cindy
The bad people (presumably the government, the Obama administration, new atheists, and or right wing bigots) are cynically using calls for nonviolence as a way to attack muslims even though the bad people are lying about their belief in nonviolence.
We can either name the names of the hypocrites lying about their own beliefs, or we can decide that a position of nonviolence itself is an attack on muslims.
If your goal is to promote nonviolence, then the latter opinion seems not only counterproductive, but rather insulting. What is your goal?
I will temporarily self identify as a Muslim and point that there is a group of people trying to condemn me for something I did not do, and a group of people trying to forgive me for something I did not do. While I understand the intentions of the ‘forgive me’ group are different than the intentions of the ‘condemn me’ group, but their opinions are similar enough to each other that all this moral self congratulation is rather premature–and insulting.
But that’s just me.
More specifically, it’s absurd that a religion adhered to by 1.7 billion people should be exempted from the same ridicule and satire meted out to the other Abrahamic religions, especially when some of religionists placed the religion in the news for this or that inanity or atrocity.
Any magazine devoted to the style and topics Charlie Hebdo is would look hypocritical and preposterous, as if it was sitting in a closet with an elephant and ignoring it because Charlie’s friends wanted him to pretend the elephant didn’t exist.
But Glenn isn’t arguing that Charlie Hebdo must change their behavior, he’s saying he sees a good reason not to support them in this particular way.
What Glenn actually says is this:
Among the arts and letters community, satire in the Enlightenment tradition of Voltaire and the French philosophes regarding the religion of Islam, actually has quite unorthodox and pretty marginalized. So many fear (with some justification) being lumped in with the Pam Gellers of the world they won’t go near it.
Charlie Hebdo didn’t and doesn’t care if in recent times it is considered impolitic to include a religion with 1.7 billion adherents in its repertoire of god-based targets. It has done this at the same time it continues to mock French fascists and racists.
I support the PEN award even if some feel Charlie Hebdo has failed to properly implement the “punching down” doctrine. They’ve certainly paid a high price for doing so.
I’m not sure how what Glenn says there takes away from my point. Perhaps you’re not suggesting it does.
On the plus side, this is more material to prove you are indeed a fully independent thinker who only mostly aligns with Glenn.
Glenn Greenwald’s problem with Charlie Hebdo’s action to “glorify offensive material expressing anti-Islamic and nationalistic sentiments already widely shared in the Western world” is not supported by the facts. It is, in fact, contrary to the facts. The shooters shot their way into the offices and fired away for a particular offense, one particular offense! It was clearly expressed: they drew an image of the Prophet. There was no other complaint. For Greenwalt and others here to fabricate a story about “expressing anti-Islamic and nationalistic sentiment” is a simple and outrageous fraud. There is no evidence of that with Charlie Hebdo. Facts usually matter. Why do they not here?
Frankster –
It is not contrary to the facts. Insulting Islam and its adherents is useful to a corrupt corporatist militarist establishment that has institutionalized bigotry against them worldwide.
This is a *fact.*
LOVE BOMB LOVE BOMB LOVE BOMB PEACE FORGIVENESS PATIENCE LOVE BOMB
@thelastnamechosen
By the way, I admired your comment very much, which is why I attacked it.
If Glenn Greenwald had made a slightly different argument, I could agree with him.
France does not have a guarantee of free speech, but rather has laws which protect both individuals and groups from being defamed or insulted. So if the government selectively permits some groups to be insulted, they are effectively targeting those groups. So Charlie Hebdo could be given an award for courage in spreading government propaganda.
I believe this would be a reasonable compromise. The free speech absolutists could maintain their principles, without having to associate themselves with unpleasant points of view. The governments of the world could reward the courage of those who carry water for them.
“So Charlie Hebdo could be given an award for courage in spreading government propaganda.”
That, effectively, is exactly what is about to take place.
Right. Because PEN is an arm of the French Republic – they’ll prolly send up all the stanzas to La Marseillaise before the keynote.
Now for serious commentary from a writer with some moral authority:
<But Salman Rushdie, a former PEN president who lived in hiding for years after a fatwa in response to his novel “The Satanic Verses,” said the issues were perfectly clear. [Two of the six withdrawing authors] were old friends of his, he said, but they are “horribly wrong.”
.
“If PEN as a free speech organization can’t defend and celebrate people who have been murdered for drawing pictures, then frankly the organization is not worth the name,” Mr. Rushdie said. “What I would say to both Peter and Michael and the others is, I hope nobody ever comes after them.”
Implicit, of course, is that the French satirists and cartoonists are artists in the fold, and not usefully analogized to the Klan.
CH was attacked for promoting the sort of vile anti-Muslim hatred that has been promoted and accepted by Western governments for years. It is now receiving an award for its “courage” promulgating that nastiness. (N.B.: It is *entirely* irrelevant that Charlie has also indulged in vile attacks on other belief systems.)
The award is being presented by an organization that has been disturbingly infiltrated by former (at least) agents of said Western governments.
If you national anthems to make the connection, you need to think through this more carefully.
If you NEED national anthems . . .
Ah, says one who must not have been raised by crazy and authoritarian religionists in a deeply oppressive permutation of the faith. The kind of guy who was never, say, incarcerated as a young girl in a Magdalene Laundry for having kissed boys and being altogether too flirtatious.
Charlie Hebdo stands in a noble tradition of French anti-religious satire. That tradition has been incredibly helpful to me on a persona level, and also cleansing of religious oppression for the West in general. So much so that I was not permitted to read about it until I was an adult and on my own.
I’m sorry for your childhood trauma, Mona. Truly.
However, may I suggest that your personal experience may have colored your view of matters like this, resulting in a position that, however unintentionally, has the effect of promoting hatred and violence? Because that’s exactly what happens when humans are faced with mockery and ridicule directed at the belief systems at the foundations of their personal identities.
If you insist on celebrating these sorts of insults, you need to understand and accept that not all of the insulted will be satisfied with verbal or written responses — that’s just a fact of human nature. So, pay your nickel and make your choice.
It is hardly just me! For instance, I was never imprisoned in a Magdalene Laundry. My forebears got out of Eire before I was born.
(But if you want to see 20th century Irish-Catholicism abusing and oppressing people see the film “Angela’s Ashes” based on Frank McCourt’s autobiographical novel of the same name. Then for female-specific oppression by the Irish Church, see “The Magdalene Laundries.”)
Satirizing the pretensions and inanities of religion gives comfort to its victims and takes power away from the priestly class. It is a fine and noble Enlightenment — and especially French — tradition.
I’m so relieved to hear that your suffering is vicarious.
“Satirizing the pretensions and inanities of religion gives comfort to its victims and takes power away from the priestly class.”
Perhaps, but that’s not the only thing it does, now is it?
I didn’t say that either. But in America the Irish-Catholics couldn’t, because of the legal structure, be as extreme with the children as they were in the old sod. Not getting into my personal details, but my oppression in a religion has not been remotely vicarious.
It has certainly been a salutary thing it does!
It is undeniable that the French government is more serious about antisemitism than about anti-Muslim expression – and I would go further, that the present PM has engaged in Rom-bashing himself (the Roma are, by far, the most discriminated group in France).
But Charlie Hebdo bears no responsibility for that, did not approve of it (on the contrary), and did not itself target any minority group; it mocked religion. And it may even be said that it did so proportionally to the importance of each religion; Catholicism first, Islam second, Judaism third.
The fact that the French government embraced Charlie Hebdo does not mean that Charlie Hebdo embraced the French government.
“The fact that the French government embraced Charlie Hebdo does not mean that Charlie Hebdo embraced the French government.”
So? What’s your point?
Or are you just a champion of insults to and mockery of cultures and belief systems in general? If that’s the case, you and others who can’t differentiate between free speech and gratuitous offensiveness should probably get used to really unpleasant reactions.
Do you mean free speech does not cover gratuitous offensiveness? I disagree. What’s gratuitous offensiveness anyway? In North Korea it might be defined as “anything that does not glorify the Dear Leader”. Distinguish between free speech and gratuitous offensiveness and there goes your free speech. Charlie Hebdo, to be clear, engaged in a lot of gratuitous offensiveness in my subjective eyes and even made a sport of it. But when it comes to Islam, it was mostly the salafists of the Gulf States who were offended by its cartoons. I know the French Muslim community rather well, having lived among it for many years and still having many friends and acquaintances among it, and they didn’t care about Charlie Hebdo.
In any case that was not what my comment was about. I was agreeing that the French government applies double standards, and denying that Charlie Hebdo did. That’s all.
>you and others who can’t differentiate between free speech and gratuitous offensiveness should probably get used to really unpleasant reactions.< This sentiment is exactly why CH and organizations like them are drastically needed. Thank you for nutshelling it for me. I am thoroughly on the side of people AGAINST killing because of insults. They deserve more than the PEN award IMHO….
“I am thoroughly on the side of people AGAINST killing because of insults.”
I’m sure all of us here are against killing over insults. Some of us have sufficient knowledge of human nature and human history (it doesn’t take much) to understand that insults can get you killed, and that your unhappiness with that reality is vanishingly unlikely to change it.
Grow up.
@ Doug Salzman — “Grow up?” right back at ya’, Ace. Great “rebuttal”. I am fully aware of the dangers of insulting people .. with .. um .. Free Speech. And CH was too. Hence the Courage award. And the need for their efforts.
Are you willing to show your own courage by openly and publicly supporting the attacks on Islamic belief and culture using your own name and home town? I’ll pay for the domain registration and help you set up the site. Your fellow brave mockers can join you, provided only that you openly identify yourselves.
Let’s see how grown up you really are.
@ Doug Salzmann — Wow, and now an authoritarian “challenge” that I must meet to be considered by Internet Dougie to be grown up? I’m done with you. You obviously have a challenge with thinking coherently.
You may be right – I’m no expert on Charlie Hebdo.
My own opinion is that free speech advocates, who are used to being shunned, may find it distasteful when governments try to clamber on board. But they shouldn’t let that spook them into jumping off. If they just grit their teeth and tough it out, governments will move on to other things before long. I am sure that many of the world leaders have already forgotten that they once marched in support of free speech, and would probably be embarrassed if someone reminded them.
lol
Just so, Benito. I’m certainly not going to tailor my commitment to free speech and my admiration the victims killed for refusing to stop stating their anti-religion ideas, just because filth like Benjamin Netanyahu had a purely opportunistic reason for “supporting” it and them.
“So if the government selectively permits some groups to be insulted, they are effectively targeting those groups.”
While I don’t agree with any laws protecting religious groups from speech, your characterization is incorrect, the French often prosecute individuals for criticizing Islam. Brigitte Bardot has been charged five times for insulting Muslims and “inciting racial hatred.” If anything Muslims tend to be the beneficiaries of selective enforcement.
Some more inaccuracies in this article:
“some of the most repressive regimes on the planet sent officials to participate in the Paris “Free Speech” rally, and France itself began almost immediately arresting and prosecuting people for expressing unpopular, verboten political viewpoints and then undertaking a series of official censorship acts, including the blocking of websites disliked by its government. The French government perpetrated these acts of censorship, and continues to do so, with almost no objections from those who flamboyantly paraded around as free speech fanatics during Charlie Hebdo Week.”
First, the fact that repressive politicians came to the march in no way detracts from the popular movement behind it. The media concentrated on the VIPs but in fact everyone marched equally and the dictators were a million times outnumbered. Second, the crackdown on free expression in France had nothing to do with Charlie Hebdo, but with the subsequent attack on a kosher deli. Third, there were a lot of objections.
“Nothing is easier than mocking and maligning the group in your society most marginalized and oppressed.”
First, Charlie Hebdo consistently defended the marginalized and oppressed – against the Front National, against government, but also, crucially, against salafists. Second, there is nothing “easy” about defying a violent international organization like Al Qaeda. I mean, good grief. How can anyone call that easy, or say that “nothing is easier”? They had a fatwa issued against them, and it didn’t stop them. They were firebombed, and it didn’t stop them. Most of them were killed, and the survivors go on. What’s their life expectancy? Want to be their insurance agent?
“Nothing is easier”, my God.
For those who haven’t read this piece in reason about this, it’s here: http://reason.com/blog/2015/04/27/free-speech-wannabees-pull-out-of-free-s — “That’s just it: People who call themselves writers and champions of free speech paid just enough attention to slime dead cartoonists as racists even before all the blood was mopped up. They continue to reveal themselves by their works.”
I agree largely with Glenn on this. Additional thoughts:
We all get upset, and we all too often identify our present understanding as so much a part of ourselves that a kind of stubbornness arises in defense of our ideas – a digging in of the heels that ends up being a mockery of the principle we may have started with. If free speech is considered the right to insult religious people, then doubling down and making it as offensive as possible may be the unfortunate effect of this stubbornness. I don’t think CH insulted Zen Buddhism, my religion, but the cartoons I saw degrading Islam and Christianity actually succeeded in turning my stomach and leaving me sad – for example, the one where God the father is fucking Jesus and the Holy Spirit is fucking the father (or something, I only looked briefly) seemed way too vile and gratuitous to me, even though I know the French culture prides itself on being less delicate about these matters (nevertheless, they managed to offend me).
Apart from Glenn’s observation that it is useful for the establishment to have free rein in insulting Islam and its adherents, the call to support gratuitous offence against religion appears to have become a position of “They *shouldn’t* be sensitive about their faith” which is a sort of cultural blindness and bigotry. Of course violence is no answer to being offended, there is no justification, but to expect tempers not to flare around such an intimate subject is pretty goofy.
For me, that’s the point: to ignore the fact that people feel almost obsessively close to their preferred ideas, particularly ‘spiritual’ notions and familial bonds is hiding ones head in the sand, in some contexts dangerously, and to demand everyone tolerate every offensive thing said is unrealistic even if the principle is sound. I think if courageous free speech is really to be promoted, it should be tempered with an equal cultural call for *moral* courage – the latter not being a matter of law but personal decency, an attempt at least toward infusing tolerance and respect for others’ views in our expressions. We all need to work on that.
I know I do.
Whoever throws insults at another person, or what’s dear to them, merely reveals the state of their own self, and provides a great opportunity to the targeted person(s) to turn inward and let the qualities of love, forgiveness and patience to shine.
Thanks. I need to learn this.
Oh.. is THAT what those guys that shot the Hebdo offices up were doing!?! Showing love and peace on earth! I never would have guessed. The sarcasm that the Hebdo group does, is NOT what I would call “propaganda” as someone else claimed. Their work would seem to be a collection of very direct interpretation of the state of how the “Muslim” or “Islam” believers are viewed today. For the most part, I agree with them. I have not seen much by them that I didn’t find funny, or accurate. I also think while the rest of the world is trying to say, “But the Islam is NOT like this”. The USA POTUS is doing it soooo much, that he won’t even admit that there is a problem! Talk about sticking your head in the sand!!! NO ONE does it better than Obama!!!
This article serves as another reminder that when money talks, democracy walks.
Obviously the organization PEN America, through Suzanne Nossel, has been co-opted by US Government interests to present the illusion that free-speech in journalism is rewarded providing that it fits the narrative provided and promoted by US Government political propaganda to demonize the members of marginalized organized religions. Stated differently; to add pointed emphasis to that lofty and “exceptional” condemnation of the Islamic communities.
My perspective is one which deplores all organized religious institutions equally. The same one that Charlie Hebdo as a publication falsely proclaimed to be their own but abjectly failed to deliver by not offering their so-called satire equally for all world organized religions, and presenting tasteless cartoons mocking not the religious institutions themselves but instead the practitioners of the religion. I saw, and see, nothing funny in the promotion of cultural hate as that practice could only serve to falsely divide human populations. There are no “chosen ones” on Planet Earth to include those individuals that choose to reject organized world religious organizational institutions.
In my opinion, no reward or perceived societal literary honor should be presented to Charlie Hebdo for exercising free-speech rights which leads to the promotion of indiscriminate profiling and marginalization of the members of any religious group based on their individual religious beliefs.
PEN America through this bogus award, has just revealed it’s own organizational infiltration, ability to be bought, and now apparently deceptive mission.
Those members who object or retract their membership at this time over this ridiculous display of awarding moral turpitude should be applauded.
No true freedom, even in speech, will prevail on Earth when church and state are allowed to entwine as a singular body.
‘In Lyra I Trust’
“not offering their so-called satire equally for all world organized religions”. That’s true: they mocked Christianity far more often than any other religion, including Islam.
“presenting tasteless cartoons mocking not the religious institutions themselves but instead the practitioners of the religion.” I wonder where you got that from. They mocked religion, and simultaneously defended minority rights.
“I saw, and see, nothing funny in the promotion of cultural hate”. Neither did Charlie Hebdo which is why most of their satire was directed at the xenophobic Front National. The vast majority of their cartoons lambasted politicians, particularly those who were hostile to minorities.
“In my opinion, no reward or perceived societal literary honor should be presented to Charlie Hebdo for exercising free-speech rights which leads to the promotion of indiscriminate profiling and marginalization of the members of any religious group”. If that was what they had been doing, they’d agree with you. But it wasn’t.
Your entitled to your opinion Hans Bavinck and I am entitled to mine.
Obviously, we don’t agree but there is no point in arguing the matter because neither one of us is willing to change our opinion and neither one of us is definitively right or wrong….it is a matter of individual perception.
I do not impose my opinion on you but it appears that you are trying to impose yours on me.
Your perceptions do not dictate or influence mine.
You are indeed entitled to your own opinion, and I am entitled to disagree with it. But mostly, I think you have your facts wrong. I live in France, am very much familiar with the Muslim community, sometimes though not often read Charlie Hebdo, and strongly feel that the magazine has been misrepresented in the English language press. Perhaps that is because it’s not an on-line publication and the only cartoons people outside France have seen are the ones that are scanned and downloaded by individuals or the media – which give a false impression, certainly since the killings, because everyone has been concentrating on the Mohammed depictions which were a lot less common than people seem to believe.
Over the ten-year period 2005-2015, of more than 500 Charlie Hebdo cover pages, only 38 targeted religion – of which Catholicism 21 times, Islam 7 times, all three Abrahamic religions including Judaism 3 times. http://www.ozap.com/actu/-charlie-hebdo-l-islam-sujet-de-1-3-des-unes-ces-10-dernieres-annees/463340
So when I say that they mocked Christianity far more often than Islam, that is not a perception but a fact.
My opinion is based on what I personally have seen of the Charlie Hebdo cartoons, not on the whole body of the publication nor their mission objectives pertaining to the French political structure. Your “facts” actually support my statement regarding unequal targeting of religious institutions.
I did not find the cartoons pertaining to religion that I have seen to be funny because as I stated above, they rudely targeted the individual belief systems of the believers…to use your words…”mocked” their intrinsic perceptions of god or gods as the case may be.
Although I definitely don’t uphold the belief system of any one organized religion, I find the practice of mocking the underlying beliefs of practitioners of any religious body, to be rude and counter-productive because it is likely to result in negative responses. That is my opinion.
It is, therefore, not influenced by your alleged body of facts because my opinion was based on my perception of the work which I have seen and did not like.
This organization, PEN America, which is presenting the award to Charlie Hebdo appears to have been co-opted by very convenient US Federal government propaganda interests through the person of agent Suzanne Nossel. That is what should be raising questions as to whether or not the award is deserved. I have no interest in Charlie Hebdo or the hate propaganda of the United States Federal government regarding members of the Muslim religion.
Think whatever you want Hans Bavinck. I was quite clear in stating my opinion as just that.
It is what it is and it is pointless to argue it.
He did not merely offer a different opinion; the man stated your facts were wrong or incomplete, and said how. No one is entitled to their own facts.
Yes -Mona-.
He offered an unsolicited body of facts to justify his — and apparently your position, which runs contrary to mine and does not dictate, impact-upon, nor is it relevant to my statements of opinion which were clearly identified as such.
There is a moral polarity involved this issue but it is not confined to some type of imaginary court-of-law proceeding regarding “right and wrong” answers for matters of opinion. Opinion is a gray area.
You are both entitled to think whatever you want and form your own opinions.
Give me the same courtesy and pick your legal “validity of opinion” fights elsewhere.
On a public comment board, about an extremely controversial matter, a commenter offered “an unsolicited body of facts.” Oh the humanity!!!
You are obviously confusing the concept of common decency and respect for another person’s opinion, particularly when it was clearly stated as such (not as some type of factual undeniable truth) with the concept of humanitarianism which encompasses all individual’s within a collective. I do not assume to represent all of humanity on this issue. Just myself.
Being as you are lawyer and given toward rote meaningless argument regarding the right of an individual to hold their own opinion based upon his/her own perceptions, I might have expected such an antagonistic response. Apparently, you can’t help yourself with this mechanism because you have been indoctrinated to believe in your own “superior” gifted data base of intelligence and appear to have some ego-centric need to both argue and win without fail.
Opinion is what it is. Nothing more than that. Do not expect me to accept yours as fact any more than I would expect you to accept mine as fact. Neither one of us wins because there is no case for condemnation of individual opinion based on an individual’s perception.
Respect for others—-particularly when it pertains to an individual’s right to self-determination in making decisions regarding their own internalized spiritual belief system without suffering societal ridicule; is an unwritten common moral decency that crosses the boundaries of the by-laws of all organized religions and state statutory law. It is universal in scope.
You are the judge of your own thoughts and actions but you are not qualified to be the judge of mine.
Wow: I thought “I’ve made up my mind, don’t confuse me with the facts” was a joke!
I think this question is what matters: did the published output of CH require bravery in the face of government opposition, or is it just what they wanted to do?
Fuk` Charb, and his self-absorbed tact. What about the 9 other individuals who were massacred under his watch? Did they also decree that they’d “rather die standing than live on their knees.” And where is it stated that he actually did die, ‘standing’? Isn’t possible that he died pleading for his life like any other rational human would do if confronted with the same dire circumstances? How about the lax security measures that were implemented after his prior building was firebombed? Who’s responsible for them? The woman who let the murderers in, brought her child to the offices that day. What in the fuk’ was she thinking?
“I don’t have kids, no wife, no car, no debt,” he once told France’s Le Monde newspaper. “Maybe it’s a little pompous to say, but I’d rather die standing than live on my knees.” -charb
Blame the victims, much? Maybe he did die pleading for his life. So what? He lived for years knowing he could be killed at any moment and never allowed fear to dictate his editorial policy. That is what matters, not whether he behaved like Rambo when the gun was pointed at him.
Charb, personally, was the primary object of the Al Qaeda fatwa. And yes, the other cartoonists were aware of the, for them smaller, risk, and assumed it.
That would be victim (as in singular), Hans. And yes, I do blame him for his inept security measures that showed an utter disregard for the threats involved, and the safety of his colleagues.
“Smaller risk”, indeed…
Charlie Hebdo was an almost bankrupt publication, whose total value had been independently estimated at exactly zero euros. There is no way it could have afforded private security sufficient to ward off an Al Qaeda attack. They could either depend on public protection and continue their work, or give in to the Al Qaeda dictate, thereby giving that organization the title of Censor of Western Media. There was no other choice.
As a matter of interest, although it has little to do with the PEN award, I’d like to give a short analysis on why French progressives have such a different view on the Charlie affair than American ones. To quite understand the domestic political reality within which the attack took place, we have to go back to the year 2002 when the far-right candidate Jean-Marie Le Pen, benefiting from the division of the left, made it to the second round in the presidential election.
Hardly had the news come through than the French poured into the street to protest. It was the largest spontaneous demonstration I’ve ever seen and it set the tone for what was to follow. The people led, the politicians followed. The left massively threw its support behind its old nemesis Jacques Chirac, who was elected with a mindblowing 82% of the vote. Chirac, in turn, returned the favor by being a surprisingly centrist, even environmentalist, president. Most of all he laid down the rule that all alliances with the far-right Front National would lead to exclusion from his party – the socalled “cordon sanitaire”. What the French call the “front républicain” – the alliance of all parties against the Front National – was born, and the danger of fascist government seemed averted.
It was Sarkozy who, during the latter half of his presidency, abandoned the “cordon sanitaire” doctrine and not only allowed flirtation with the far right but also brought in sympathizers and former members of the Front National into his party. This was so divisive, even on the right, that Chirac himself in 2012 voted against the candidate of the party he himself had created. Following Sarkozy’s self-inflicted defeat, however, all was not healed. The conservative party UMP had abandoned the idea of the front républicain and a Front National victory in the future suddenly seemed possible. There was, and still is, a palpable constitutional anxiety in France. I know a lot of progressives who play with the idea of emigration in the case of a Front National presidency.
The attack on Charlie Hebdo took place within this situation of fear for the political future. As in 2002, people spontaneously poured into the street to protest – but they weren’t just protesting against the murders, but also against all xenophobic attempts to benefit from them. This was not contradictory in the least. People were protesting against integrists trying to impose their will on the nation – and both Al Qaeda and the Front National fall within that category, even if their methods and religions are different. The protesters were largely the same as in 2002 – civic-minded progressives. There were no anti-Muslim banners or signs at all; most people simply held up pens. And as in 2002, it was these spontaneous expressions of street power that set the tone. Following the murders, it had seemed quite possible that xenophobia would reign. Instead, xenophobia was banned. The march in Paris was called ‘la marche républicaine’ – a throwback to the front républicain. The Front National, the very party that had always warned against islamic violence, was the only political party not invited.
This resurgence of the front républicain was not to the liking of Sarkozy (still less to that of the Front National). He is presently trying to rebaptize his party “La République”, not because he adheres to republican values, but to render the term meaningless. He is, once again, vying for power personally but in fact paving the way for the fascism he says he abhors and yet seems strangely sympathetic to. But that does not mean that the “marches républicaines” were in vain. Within the UMP, the faction that continues to incarnate the ideas of Chirac, that is, hostility to xenophobia, has gained in vocality. Sarkozy was forced to accept an open primary to choose the next presidential candidate of his party – and that means it is very likely that Alain Juppé, whose republican credentials are impeccable, will double him and become the next French president. In which case the front républicain might be resurrected, dashing the hopes of the Front National.
In sum, the situation is worrisome, but in 2015 as in 2002, it was not politicians but people hitting the street who made the difference. I know of no other country (with the exception of Spain) where people will spontaneously turn out in such large numbers when their core values are under attack. It was magnificent.
Charlie, within all that, has become a symbol. It was a little-read publication previously: progressive, pro-minority though very much secular, but mostly, well, not very good. But its courage in standing up to integrists of ALL sorts, including Islamic ones (though its main target has always been the Front National), has had an electrifying effect and its cover page following the attack was, for once, quite simply brilliant. Yet the real debate, in France, is not about Charlie. It is about whether the Chirac-age alliance against the forces of fascism can be revived.
You won’t see “Je suis Charlie” stickers on cars belonging to Front National sympathizers. It is not a xenophobic slogan, quite to the contrary. What the slogan means is “I will stand up for core values no matter the danger”. It may not be true in practice, but it’s a noble intention.
bah quotes Glenn, my emphasis:
And then bah replies:
Perhaps you and Glenn could explain what you agree is “dangerous” about the slaughter of the Charlie Hebdo staff?
It’s pretty obvious: it’s dangerous when someone’s life is endangered with vigilante violence for expressing ideas.
That would be true if the people being murdered were white supremacists, but neither you nor anyone else would want such individuals given courage awards.
This article is so full of inaccuracies – let me call it sloppy reporting – that I don’t know where to start.
“Celebrating Charlie Hebdo was largely about glorifying anti-Muslim sentiment”. No it wasn’t, as should be obvious from the fact that the Paris March expressly excluded the anti-immigrant Front National. Glenn entirely ignores the dynamic of those days. Immediately after the killings people poured into the street to protest. Those spontaneous marches were not just reminiscent of those that were held when the far-right candidate Le Pen made it to the second round in the presidential elections of 2002, but largely consisted of the same people: civic-minded progressives. There was no xenophobia, no anti-Muslim sentiment. I was there, Glenn, and you obviously weren’t. It was a magnificent show of people power to defend democratic ideals – not just free expression, but also, explicitly, equality.
“celebrations of Charlie Hebdo cartoonists are independent of the fact that the particular group they most prominently mock are Muslims”. Nonsense. To begin with, CH didn’t mock Muslims – it was one of the most pro-immigrant and pro-Palestinian publications in France. They did mock Islam, but not nearly as much as they mocked Christianity – and they mocked Judaism, too. Respecting religion is very nice, but there is another point of view: that religion is an instrument in oppression and exclusion. To mock Islam, at least the wahhabi form, is NOT to mock ordinary Muslims.
“a Charlie Hebdo cartoonist was fired by the magazine in 2009 for mocking Judaism: where were all the newfound free speech crusaders then?” The funny thing is that Glenn himself in his first article on Charlie noted that the judge who awarded damages to the fired cartoonist threw out the antisemitism argument. He should, therefore, at the very least suspect that something else was going on, and maybe read the Wikipedia article on the “affaire Siné” before writing falsehoods. Siné was fired for mocking the Sarkozy family, to which the then-chief editor of Charlie Hebdo was befriended. Antisemitism was just the excuse, and as said, the judge didn’t buy it. And where the free speech crusaders were? They were criticizing this instance of press corruption. Note: the editor of Charlie in question was promoted (under Sarkozy’s presidency) to the prestigious directorship of the public radio France Inter, and his successor, who was killed, had nothing to do with the affair.
Should I go on? Let me just say that I lived, and still weekly visit, a majority immigrant neighborhood in Toulouse, and no one ever cared about Charlie Hebdo or protested against its prominent sale at tobacco shops. That Muslims in France felt oppressed or deeply insulted by the magazine is bullocks. It was far-away Al Qaeda that commandeered the attack, and it’s worth remembering why. When the Danish cartoon controversy erupted, the weekly L’Express promised to reprint the cartoons in question but reneged on that promise out of fear of retalation. Charlie Hebdo then stepped into the breach, thereby denying to Al Qaeda the self-appointed role of censor of Western media. It was THEN that Al Qaeda launched a fatwa against CH and that the office of the struggling magazine was firebombed. The now dead editor of Charlie, Charb, spoke about the risk of death, saying he’d rather die on his feet than live on his knees. Charlie rightfully receives the PEN award because he and his colleagues died on their feet.
I’m glad that someone made the distinction between Islam and Muslims. And to make the point, as someone who was there, that CH wasn’t constantly “punching down” as seems to be one of that main points if the Eisenberg letter. And one of the bloggers I read regularly agrees at FreeThought blogs: http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterfliesandwheels/2015/04/deborah-eisenberg-gets-charlie-hebdo-all-wrong/#more-19490
And here’s her previous blog post to the one linked above. http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterfliesandwheels/2015/04/six-writers-in-search-of-a-clue/#more-19487
Ms. Kushner said she was withdrawing out of discomfort with what she called the magazine’s “cultural intolerance” and promotion of “a kind of forced secular view,” opinions echoed by other writers who pulled out.
And Ophelia Benson replies with:”Forced? Forced? FORCED? CH isn’t the one who was doing the forcing. CH is a magazine (or weekly newspaper); it says things and draws things; it forces no one and nothing. All the force came from the two men with huge guns who broke into their office that morning and murdered nine people.”
What simplistic nonsense. She misrepresents what Kushner said, Kushner never said CH were forcing people to do anything, but Benson attributes that to Kushner, and then attacks that. Perfect example of a straw-man argument.
“I’m glad that someone made the distinction between Islam and Muslims.”
You are just implying that Muslims are evil, but you are not actually saying it?
You should be thanking Glenn for exposing yet again the hidden agenda. Don’t think so?
Just search “Suzanne Nossel” Sourcewatch and come up with these links:
• Ann Wright and Coleen Rowley, Amnesty’s Shilling for US Wars, ConsortiumNews, 18 June 2012.
• Philip Weiss, Amnesty Int’l collapse: new head is former State Dept official who rationalized Iran sanctions, Gaza onslaught, Mondoweiss, 22 June 2012. Contains a video interview with Nossel.
• John V. Walsh and Coleen Rowley, “U.S. Cooption of the Human Rights Movement Continues: An Appeal to PEN: Exec. Director Suzanne Nossel Must Go”, Dissident Voice, April 1, 2013.
Exactly Thelma Follett.
PEN America co-opted by US Federal Government propaganda interests in promoting a bogus “War on Terror.”
Money and material gain…is the supreme god and driving force just as it has been for the millenniums of Empiric wars fought in the name of the assumed political and religious supremacy of the conquerors.
The end result is always the same. The rich get richer, and the poor suffer the losses of death and destruction.
A master/slave relationship over all of humanity on planet Earth.
This article is so full of inaccuracies that I don’t know where to start. Maybe I should start with the opinion that a journalist who regularly lambasts media for sloppy reporting should not do sloppy reporting himself.
“Celebrating Charlie Hebdo was largely about glorifying anti-Muslim sentiment; free expression was the pretext.” Nonsense, as should be evident from the fact that the xenophobic Front National was expressly excluded from the Paris march. Glenn here entirely ignores the dynamic of those days. The first marches to protest the Charlie Hebdo killings were entirely spontaneous – similar to those that happened when the far-right candidate Le Pen made it to the second round in the presidential elections in 2002. The people who marched were mostly the same: progressives. There was no xenophobia or anti-Muslim sentiment. Those first marches – which set the tone for what followed – were about defending the ideals of the French Republic, including that of equality. I was there, Glenn. You obviously weren’t. And by the way Charlie Hebdo was one of the most pro-immigrant (and incidentally pro-Palestinian) publications in France.
“And it highlights the fraud of pretending that celebrations of Charlie Hebdo cartoonists are independent of the fact that the particular group they most prominently mock are Muslims, a marginalized, targeted, and largely powerless group in France and the west generally.” They did not mock Muslims, but defended them. They did not even “prominently” mock Islam – they mocked Christianity four times more often, and did not refrain from mocking Judaism either. Respecting religion is nice, but there is another point of view: that religion does not uplift, but is an instrument of oppression. To mock religion is fair game in a free-expression society, even if one disagrees about the role of religion.
“a Charlie Hebdo cartoonist was fired by the magazine in 2009 for mocking Judaism”. No he wasn’t, as Glenn should know because in his initial article about Charlie he mentioned that the judge threw out the antisemitic excuse for the firing and awarded damages to the cartoonist. Siné was fired because he mocked the Sarkozy family, whose son – after having received other mysterious favors, such as seeing all charges dropped in a traffic violation case – married into a rich family that happened to be Jewish. The then editor of Charlie was a friend of the President Sarkozy who promoted him to the prestigious directorship of France Inter radio. It was press corruption (typical of the Sarkozy era), not double standards. And the cartoonists and the editor who were killed had nothing to do with the affair. All of this Glenn could have known by typing “affaire Siné” in Wikipedia. But when your intention is to pile on, who needs facts.
Need I go on? The idea that French Muslims were “oppressed” or even insulted by Charlie Hebdo is bullocks. I lived in a majority immigrant neighborhood in Toulouse and no one cared about the magazine or protested at the fact that tobacco shops prominently sold it. And anyone who thinks that is out of submission doesn’t know what they’re talking about; young Arabs are highly vocal. The only Muslim who ever bothered me about the issue I was reading at an Arab café was a guy who wanted to borrow my copy when I had finished, and that was because the “prominent” target of Charlie Hebdo was, always was, and still is, the far-right Front National.
The idea that the Charlie Hebdo cartoonists were killed because they mocked the Prophet is equally false. When the Danish cartoon controversy erupted, the French magazine L’Express promised to reprint the cartoons in question. Out of fear of Al Qaeda retaliation they reneged on that promise, and Charlie Hebdo stepped into the breach to deny to Al Qaeda the role of de facto media censor. It was THEN that CH received the Al Qaeda fatwa, shortly later followed by a firebombing. Its editor Charb knew he was risking death and talked about it, saying he’d rather die standing than live on his knees. Well, he died standing, and that’s why the PEN award is justified.
He was brave, but also much more principled than the English language press seems to realize. When the Paris prefecture wanted to prohibit a demonstration against Charlie Hebdo for public order reasons. Charb protested that decision and demanded that the demonstration be allowed, saying that it didn’t make sense to grant him the right to express himself freely and to deny that right to others. That’s how deeply he believed in free expression.
“To mock religion is fair game in a free-expression society, even if one disagrees about the role of religion.”
This used to be leftist position, just as Charlie Hebdo used to be a leftist publication, before they were posthumously expelled. It’s true that certain causes, as well as cerain values, such as Freedom of Speech, tend to get picked up by the Right when they are abandoned by the Left. That’s why the American Left should be hailing CH as a fallen comrade not distorting their memory and trying to disown them.
That’s a key point. The award is named “Freedom of Expression Courage Award”. Greenwald and other critics of PEN are ignoring that the award is for courage – publishing in the face of a grave threat – which has nothing to do with the content of Charlie Hebdo’s speech. It’s just ridiculous to say that PEN is endorsing CH’s speech by recognizing its courage. (This is why the comparison to a white supremacist that is murdered for his speech fails completely, as I argued below.)
Greenwald and other critics of PEN are ignoring that the award is for courage – publishing in the face of a grave threat – which has nothing to do with the content of Charlie Hebdo’s speech. It’s just ridiculous to say that PEN is endorsing CH’s speech by recognizing its courage.
So if a KKK leader had kept publishing white supremacist filth even in the face of threats, and then was killed for it, you’d want to bestow him and his organization with courage awards? Utter bullshit, and that’s what the PEN writers are saying. This is love of their anti-Muslim cartoons masquerading as a concern for free expression, and the KKK example proves that.
For the logically impaired; this point doesn’t remotely require equating CH cartoonists with KKK.
“For the logically impaired;this point doesn’t remotely require equating CH cartoonists with KKK.”
I wonder if cognitive dissonance is actually painful, you just made a implicit comparison between CH and the KKK, anyone can see that. CH’s content is not right-wing and reactionary, you would probably agree with CH’s content 95% of the time. If CH had been killed for their anti-Catholic cartoons would any of these writers dissented? I doubt it. You’ve made the murderous Jihadis the ultimate authority on CH
If a KKK leader published white supremacist filth, and received threats, I’d want to see what it was all about. Yes, I’d want some magazine to have the courage to republish that filth so I could make up my own mind instead of relying on second-hand reports. When in the Danish cartoon controversy the entire Western media, not out of principle but out of fear, refused to show their readers what the cartoons actually showed, that was NOT respect of religion but abject cowardice. When Charlie Hebdo reprinted the cartoons, that was courage.
It was also courage to continue to stand up to the Al Qaeda line that all representations of the Prophet, including those made by non-believers, are punishable by death. The only way to do that was to represent the Prophet. The Al Qaeda version of Islamic law is very much a minority one and not shared by traditional Muslims in France or in most parts of the world. Depicting the Prophet is commonplace in Shia Islam, and not prohibited for non-believers in non-salafist Sunni Islam. Not allowing Al Qaeda, through its violence, to dictate norms and censorship was, yes, courage.
When you describe Charlie Hebdo as anti-Muslim, anti-minority, kicking down on the oppressed etc., all you prove is that you don’t know what you’re talking about. The magazine was nothing of the sort.
Of course I would, for the exact same reason I support giving CH that award for courage. And I am thereby certainly NOT embracing the content of their speech. The whole point is that it doesn’t matter what they were saying.
Ok, but let’s agree that the PEN is being insincere, and that they would never give an award to a KKK group under the same circumstances. The point I was making below is that, in 2007, you were willing to put that insincerity aside (while noting it) and stand with people you despised – “these rabid play-acting anti-Islamic warriors” – because you considered it most important to defend freedom of speech. Today, you’re not doing that. You’re making it a choice between defending freedom of speech, and calling out PEN (and Ross Douthat, Jonathan Chait and Matt Yglesias) for their insincerity, and choosing the latter. But, as you showed in 2007, it isn’t necessary to make that choice! You can do both. So, I don’t understand why you’re refusing to stand up for freedom of speech in circumstances that so closely resemble 2007. (What principle are you standing on today? As often, I’m only comparing you to what I consider to be your better self.)
No, that’s not to the point. I’m not saying that you’re choosing your positions based on what you expect to be popular. I’m saying that in this case, and the Sony/WikiLeaks case, you’re choosing your positions based on whom you like and want to support (WikiLeaks) or dislike and want to oppose (free speech hypocrites (with an anti-Muslim bias)). And I’ll admit that I’ve concocted this theory to some degree in response to your refusal to explain your defense of WikiLeaks here in the comment section, or in a column, or TwitLonger, or any place where you could make it clear. The fact that you thought it only needed to be explained on Twitter – which you admitted was inadequate for the task – makes it seem that you aren’t taking Sony’s privacy very seriously. Or, you’re just refusing to take a close look at the situation because you don’t want to face the possibility of having to condemn WikiLeaks and Assange. Sorry for all the speculation, but the Sony/WikiLeaks case seems extremely important within the context of your work, and you didn’t come close to explaining your position clearly on Twitter. You’ve leaving anyone who gives a shit about privacy to guess at what you’re thinking.
What are you taking about? It’s just me and Mona among the regulars who are supporting CH. Besides, once again, I acknowledge that you’re not afraid to piss people off. That’s not what is meant by being “principled”.
An article worth reading : http://www.lemonde.fr/idees/article/2015/02/24/non-charlie-hebdo-n-est-pas-obsede-par-l-islam_4582419_3232.html
“The idea that the Charlie Hebdo cartoonists were killed because they mocked the Prophet is equally false.”
Is there a typo in there? The rest of your paragraph seems to be saying the opposite.
No; what I’m saying is that the original Al Qaeda fatwa, which was carried out in January, was not due to any mockery of the Prophet by the Charlie Hebdo cartoonists themselves, but to their defiance in reprinting (without commentary on their part) the Danish cartoons. And that they did not do because they approved of or liked those cartoons, but because no one else would do it – out of fear of Al Qaeda reprisals. They were killed because they wanted to show their readers what the Danish cartoon controversy was all about rather than cowardly relying on second-hand descriptions of them like other media did. They had the fatwa decreed against them because they denied to Al Qaeda the role of censor of the Western press.
@ Glenn Greenwald
This is an interesting topic. Interesting because it illustrates, for lack of a better descriptor, a dilemma in taking the “free speech absolutist” position and its interaction with the overarching culture in which any given act of speech takes place.
While not universally accepted in the West (see France and a host of other European nation’s laws that legally restrict speech, either criminally or civilly, by topic or content) there is something in the West culturally approaching holding free speech as an absolute “value” or “human right” independent of content or topic. This is most certainly not the case in other cultures or nations. And it arguably isn’t true in the “real world” even in the West as illustrated by Glenn over the years when it comes to those who seek to challenge the dominate status quo of elite factions and their agendas.
Moreover this PEN award dustup between some of its members and its leadership raises an interesting question, or dilemma if you will. It is the dilemma at the heart of some of the critiques of Glenn’s work over the years, namely, how to articulate and support a foundational principle or value (with which most or all would agree within that culture) without undermining its support by using a flawed exemplar to illustrate or advance the principle or value. The clearest example I can recall is Glenn’s periodic use of Ron Paul’s words or ideas over the years to illustrate a principle, or to advance a point or argument.
As lawyers we are trained, as are other professions and vocations, to separate the merits of an idea or the qualities, kind, or degree of “fact” and to argue them on their merits notwithstanding the character flaws, motivations or relative presence/absence of ideological coherence displayed by the speaker asserting the fact or idea. But the fundamental conflict in the “real world,” is that most people aren’t trained in that manner and certainly don’t value that type of discourse in the same way a lawyer, or academic or whomever who values free speech absolutism. Most people don’t value reason or argument above faith, piety, perceived honor or their particular idiosyncratic perception of a speaker’s “character”. Go up to the average person on the street and start insulting their mother in the most vile terms imaginable and see what results. Now some free speech absolutists (or near absolutists like me) would quickly deconstruct those insults on the merits and make the speaker look both uninformed and a jerk. Or I’d come up with better insults about the speakers mother. But I can’t say with certainty that I, like most sons or daughters, would necessarily refrain from violence if you caught me in a particular mood. I would never defend such violence as being legal or right, consistent with my values generally, but I might “feel” that it was “right” in my heart even though I know in my mind it is wrong. Now clearly there are some “religious fundamentalists” in the world that would believe violence in response to words should be both legal and right. And in some nations this is also the law.
So it seems to me, as it did to apparently to Ms. Eisenberg, Mr. Cole, other members of PEN and presumably Glenn, that an organization such as PEN should be careful about choosing an exemplar of a principle when, as in this case, it runs the “real world” risk of diluting or distorting the value, by choosing a flawed or imperfect exemplar among more deserving exemplars. This is perfectly illustrated where choosing to recognize Charlie Hebdo will be tantamount in the minds of many to condoning the particularly noxious speech content (noxious to some), or the noxious agenda of certain states or elites, rather than the principle.
The principle that speech, no matter how insulting toward another’s worldview or cherished values, should never result in violence against the speaker is part of our Western cultural heritage to one degree or another, but not for others. However, in my opinion, there is a flip side of this issue. There is the very real risk of diluting a principle or idea, not because it ends up condoning particularly noxious content, but because it lends unearned legitimacy to a noxious agenda, in total, when that agenda hasn’t necessarily earned that legitimacy just because a speaker on behalf of that agenda happens to be correct on the merits concerning some particular isolated issue.
By way of illustration. Most would accept the proposition that Gandhi, MLK Jr. and Mother Theresa, in consistent words and deeds, were universal exemplars of non-violence, humanism, and ministering to the poor, disenfranchised and suffering. And yet all three were very human, and as all humans are, flawed in one respect or another. The first two, possibly, in their sexual lives (Gandhi possibly sharing his bed with minor family members and MLK Jr. possibly with someone not his spouse). Mother Theresa for fostering the unnecessary physical suffering of some of her charges over the years by refusing to administer modern pain medications to them in the belief that “suffering” was “godly.” But in an imperfect world populated by necessarily imperfect human beings those three, in total, were “close enough” to be culturally accepted as exemplars of shared if not “universal” values. Ron Paul, while being “correct” in isolated instances with regard to certain human or legal “values”, in my humble opinion, is unsuited to be an exemplar of anything but a very limited and pernicious view of those values that animate the US Constitution, humanism, service or anything remotely resembling anything but personal economic self-aggrandizement. Thus, in a world of many other exemplars to choose from, he should never be held up as an exemplar of certain universal “humanist” or legal values because of his fundamental lack of consistency in those arenas.
I guess my longwinded point or question is this–on balance does PEN’s decision to glorify Charlie Hebdo’s cartoonists and editors as exemplars of the principal of “free speech” going to universally advance the principle or solidify its opposition because the content of their speech, or the topic generally (critique of faith or its icons), is not consistently and equally addressed in terms of the objects of their satire/ridicule i.e. doling it out equally to Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Muslims etc. regardless of the cultural or legal prohibitions for doing so. Because for me that’s courage in the “free speech” arena. For me it isn’t about “punching up or punching down” or whether “satire” works best or is only appropriate when “punching up”, because that to me is simply aesthetic or class preference and highly subjective regarding where the lines of cultural propriety are to be drawn. What is more important to me as a “value” consistent with “free speech” is not the lack of aesthetic appeal, or cultural sensitivity or respect for another’s religious beliefs, but that if you’re going to drop the satirical hammer on some individuals or groups, do it consistently and equally to all those similarly situated and take your chances with the consequences. And if you’re going to single out “free speech” heroes, it is better to take the time to pick exemplars who are as close as humanly possible, in consistent words and actions together with ideological coherence, in both private and public. Otherwise you run the dual risk of legitimizing the noxious content of an isolated piece of speech rather than the principle and/or legitimizing a speaker’s unrelated content or noxious agenda when it doesn’t deserve it on the merits.
Below Glenn says:
No, it is not the point.
No reasonable person thinks Charlie Hebdo’s satire is akin to the Klan. To quote myself from the other piece on the withdrawing authors’ letters:
Klansmen are seldom if ever killed because of the mere speech they utter; it’s for the acts to which they are dedicated, and for their ghastly politics, as represented by that speech.
The Charlie Hebdo staff were not slaughtered because they wanted to kill and discriminate against Muslims. They were slaughtered because they insist on carrying on the French enlightenment tradition of mocking religion and committing blasphemy.
If PEN can’t defend authors from speech tradition, speech for which so many were slaughtered, I agree with Rushdie that the organizations isn’t worth a fig. (And one doubts you’d see Salman Rushdie running about defending slaughtered Klan leaders, or six writers opposing the Award expressing some diffidence about doing so.)
>”If PEN can’t defend authors from speech tradition, speech for which so many were slaughtered, I agree with Rushdie that the organizations isn’t worth a fig. (And one doubts you’d see Salman Rushdie running about defending slaughtered Klan leaders, or six writers opposing the Award expressing some diffidence about doing so.)”
First, I hope you will agree with me, mona, ‘free speech’ needs no defending? That’s the thing about free speech… any idiot* can do it (h/t benitoe.)
Secondly, the Charlie Hebdo cartoonists were killed because a few religious (insert one) wanna-be nutcases killed them.
Lastly, you realize Al-Alwaki was killed for some speech issues (iirc?).
*do you know how to get to Carnegie Hall … ‘practice, practice, practice’. (again, h/t benitoe.)
Yet Anwar Al Alwaki lays dead for his words:
I doubt “reasonable” people will contest that the US, Israel, and many of despotic Middle Eastern government criminalize (much less protect) free speech rights of those who refuse to conform with the hegemony.
Yes, for his protected speech of political advocacy. My views on that are well known here.
Right – Awlaki was killed for his protected political speech. He kept speaking out despite knowing the threat.
Should PEN give him a courage award, too?
Do you think any of the people cheering for the CH award would be OK with that? Please.
actually if CH should get such an award, so should Anwar al Awlaki (posthumously), who was murdered without due process…and who should have been arrested, and brought back to the US to face charges, if he really had been committing crimes against the US….
How embarrassing. Just yesterday I forgot to remove my Googlevoyant™ mind reading appliance when I took a shower. The damn thing shorted and I was left alone with my own thoughts. So I apologize for not knowing your views. Maybe you could use “words” to communicate your well known views.
CH people were slaughtered exactly because they “discriminate[d] against Muslims.” As GG points out, when some attempted to “mock[] religion and commit[] blasphemy” against Judism, those offenders were silenced.
As GG writes:
Nothing is easier than mocking and maligning the group in your society most marginalized and oppressed. People in the west have their careers destroyed when they’re accused of sympathizing with Islam, not for opposing it. Bashing Muslims and Islam is orthodoxy in the west, both on the level of official policy and political culture.
Suppose someone assassinates Rush Limbaugh. Would you call him — postmortem — a hero of some sort because he mocked Islam in some supposed American anti-religious tradition? Would you join with Laura Ingram and Erik Erikson in praising Limbaugh’s courage in the face of liberal animosity?
When the State uses its power to propagandize (see lead up to Iraq war for instance), to marginalize and prosecute (and even assassinate) members of a religious minority (see FBI infiltration of mosques), and even to reward those who demonize those minorities, then the State betrays its most important function — to protect the rights of all citizens.
Except one commenter above (Hans Bavinck) said that “blasphemy against Jusaism” was not the reason that person was fired. Would that change your view? Sounds like GG was wrong about that, and some other things regarding CH and the context in France.
And so, by your reasoning, Mona, Julius Streicher was just a harmless old man who did nothing to directly affect the lives of the millions of Jews, Gypsies and Sinti living within the boundaries of the Reich, and it was unfair to even charge him of a war crime, much less convict him.
Why yes, Jeff, that’s just exactly what I was getting at, don u no!
Now that you bring that war crime charge up, I am curious about how Glenn feels about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Streicher#Trial_and_execution
Based on the present article, I believe he would support the trial and execution (or at least conviction, if he does not support the death penalty). The argument would be as follows:
Streicher was not exercising the right to free speech. Those who opposed his ideas were generally prevented from presenting their views so a free speech forum did not exist. What Streicher had, therefore, was a privileged platform, which he used to build popular support for a program of mass genocide. His role was integral to that crime, and he therefore merited being tried and punished for his part in it.
That’s irrelevant. Nobody is equating them to the KKK.
Equating them is not the point of that thought exercise.
The point is that giving this award absolutely is inextricably linked with one’s assessment of the content of their speech – which is why you wouldn’t give it to a KKK member in exactly the same position.
“The point is that giving this award absolutely is inextricably linked with one’s assessment of the content of their speech”.
I guess the nature of the award – courage in journalism – makes it unavoidably subjective in that sense.
But anyway, if the award committee citation were to say something like – “CH Islam cartoons were in appalling taste, deliberately provocative and offensive, and frankly pathetic efforts at satire. The quality of their work is not in question. It was crap. But they published the cartoons in the face of credible threats and paid the ultimate price. However crass and simplistic our literary work, there should be an inalienable right to publish it. And that’s why we decided to honor CH today.”
Would that work for you? (It would certainly be fun to hold them to this standard in the future.)
I agree whole-heartedly that the Charlie Hebdo was embraced by a lot of people who wanted to use the massacre as an opportunity to bash Muslims. It was pretty transparently clear that the minute satire or ridicule was directed at other groups, the whole freedom of speech business would be shown up for the sham it was. And the infiltration of political/money operatives into non-profits? Don’t get me started.
But I’m on the fence on this issue – if PEN were offering this award in recognition for excellence in political satire, that would be absurd. Great satire, almost by definition, must involve punching up rather than down; and the anti-Islamic CH cartoons were a form of the latter.
But the issue here is that they were prepared to continue publishing in the face of very real threats. That does take courage, even if the satire was poor. It seems like the anti-PEN groups are particularly upset by the fact that CH’s target(s) were not sufficiently powerful, which is a fair enough point when it comes to awards for “courage”, but rather invalidated by what actually happened.
I’m very firmly of the view that defending the right of CH to publish even something that is garbage, offensive satire has to be upheld. There can be no equivocation. And if that’s what this award is trying to underline, that’s a fair argument (even if there would be many other deserving winners – as I am sure there should be, in a topic of this type). And we can start holding PEN to this standard going forward, and see how they get on.
In the mad rush to find common ground with the terrorists after the Paris massacre many on the PC Left, including you Glenn, attempted to slander Charlie Hebdo as racist and reactionary, implicitly suggesting they were asking for it, while paying lip service to a thing they don’t really believe in, Freedom of Speech. Of course most of them didn’t know what CH was or apparently understand the Leftist anti-clerical tradition it upheld. Even after CH’s politics became known, there was a flurry of sanctimonious, condescending articles about the necessity of satire to “punch up”, as if Islam the second largest and fastest growing religion on earth was an endangered species in need of special protections. If not in France, Glenn, where can one be critical of Islam without being tarred as a bigot or murdered as a heretic? That fundamentalist Islam is the greatest threat to Freedom of Speech the world over is obvious to anyone who really cares about the issue. Even in allegedly “moderate” Muslim countries, like Malaysia, draconian penalties have silenced most religious criticism. In their efforts to extend this silence to the West the Islamic Right has found a reliable ally in the PC Left. Together they’ve managed to intimidate most of the Mainstream press in Western societies through a combination of PC scolding and Islamic violence. Even after the massacre in Paris, most of the press was afraid to show any CH images. These writers who pretend to support Free Speech, but only for causes they personally support, are a disgrace
what is the point to deliberately publish such insulting images of the Prophet? the only point i can see is to stir up the shyte pile, and surprise, surprise, if you do that, all the shyte flies come buzzing around…
i personally think the French are TOO anti religion, of all kinds…
The moral stupidity and parochial ignorance on display here are truly remarkable. “Nationalistic sentiments?” Give me an example from the annals of Hebdo – you have no idea what you are talking about. Is the satire of ISIS your idea of “bashing Islam”? No, Hebdo’s attack on Judaism didn’t result in a free speech crisis because – apparently you missed this detail – the cartoonists weren’t shot in the head with Kalashnikovs by enraged Jews. As Rushdie has said – unlike you an actual Muslim who knows what we are dealing with – this has nothing to do with disenfranchised, marginalized groups who you have to “defend” against cartoons. Cartoons never killed anyone. Most Algerian immigrants loathe jihadists more than we do, not least because they have largely destroyed their country and because they escaped to France to get away from them. If you knew any Franco-Algerian literature you would know this. This is about well funded global messianic movements who are in the business of murder and silence, of both Muslims and us. These sophisms put you firmly in the camp of fellow travelers with the former.
“People in the west have their careers destroyed when they’re accused of sympathizing with Islam, not for opposing it. Bashing Muslims and Islam is orthodoxy in the west, both on the level of official policy and political culture.” -Greenwald
“The face of terror is not the true faith of Islam. That’s not what Islam is all about. Islam is peace.” George W Bush
And now GWB is unemployed, so I guess you’re right Glenn.
A brood parasite strategy.
Why waste your own time and resources raising your offspring when somebody else will unknowingly (or knowingly) spend their time and resources raising your offspring?
I guess your comments would be more honest and less despicable if you also railed about CH attacking Christians or their murderers. As usual, selective outrage. That’s why intelligent don’t give a brown eye what folks like you say.
And GOP assault on women? Oh pleeezee. Haven’t you gotten as much cynical propaganda from that canard as possible? I guess as long as the kool-aid drinkers read your obfuscations you’ll continue to print it. Sad really… the good news is, no intelligent person cares much what you say so most of your other rantings lose their swagger too.
Have a nice dadsy.ay.
Nobody supports free speech for idiots who disagree with them. (Although I do make an exception in the case of people so idiotic they serve to undermine their own case).
But the cartoonists at Charlie Hebdo did exercise their right of free speech, and they did pay a high price, so I don’t see any problem with giving them an award for bravery. Saying something which you know will enrage someone to shoot you takes just as much courage as saying something which will cause the government to put you in jail. Whether they were bigoted is a separate issue.
Those celebrating free speech in this particular case don’t actually believe in the principle itself – but nobody ever does. Like everyone else, they only opportunistically claim to support it. But at least it’s better to have them on record actually saying so, since it does provide some leverage for making a case to support your own right to free speech.
It’s a difficult dilemma for believers in near-absolute free political-cultural-religious speech. But for me, and I think for the PEN rebels, it comes down to the way Charlie Hebdo has been held up as an example of “us” … “under attack.” In other words, not only is CH “us”—Western, white, veering all too often toward crude bigotry—but it is “us under attack from ___.”
Well, not only do I not identify with bigots, but I don’t consider myself under attack from that same ___. Compare with 9/11: “We” (including many people one step away from vampire squid-dom) are all under attack from “them.” Again, although I could easily find myself blown to pieces by being at the wrong place at the wrong time, I don’t automatically consider myself part of that “we” and I don’t consider myself under attack from “them.”
The many attempts to shoehorn “me” into that “we” are despicable and dishonest, however well-intentioned. I’m glad to see people who matter disagreeing with it.
It’s theoretically possible to support someone’s right to free expression, but simultaneously disagree with what they choose to say. I did point out that nobody actually adopts this stance. Human beings form enmities and alliances and then either support each other completely or oppose each other absolutely. This is an evolutionary trait, since those who on principle sided with their enemies rather than their friends, didn’t last long.
i don’t think that absolute freedom of speech is necessarily a good thing…insulting, slanderous, libelous speech should not be protected in my view….spending your time insulting an entire religion, should not be protected either….
“The Israeli military takes the crime of protesting very seriously. And why shouldn’t they? Youth is no excuse” Baldie
We need to talk!
excellent posting Baldie….and right on the money.
Thus you subscribe to and reiterate the “those crazy, terroristic Muslims will shoot you if you don’t watch yourself” narrative.
What does a Muslim cartoonist think?
I’m merely saying it’s a possibility. But I could be wrong. You’d have to ask a Charlie Hebdo cartoonist.
A possibility?
Would you give John Bolton an award for bravery if he was shot after publishing “To Stop Iran’s Bomb, Bomb Iran” [3/26/15 NYTimes] ?
Is Bolton’s editorial an example of courage, “knowing he will enrage someone”?
You should have read the link I provided. Here’s another excellent quote.
That is a personal choice. Others may exercise their freedom of speech by attacking marginalized people. I agree this is usually not as courageous as challenging power, but sometimes marginalized people strike back too. So I’m willing to concede that expressing an opinion, of any kind, is an act of courage.
Hello Glenn, I’ve read this article with interest but you make a (common) mistake when you say about Charlie Hebdo writers “the particular group they most prominently mock are Muslims”.
It’s wrong : actually, the particular groupe they most prominently mock are politicians. Of course they mock fanatism and religious fanatism but religion is not the main topic in Charlie Hebdo, it’s obvious when you read the magazine for years and it’s even more obvious with those sociologists work (sorry, in French) : http://www.lemonde.fr/idees/article/2015/02/24/non-charlie-hebdo-n-est-pas-obsede-par-l-islam_4582419_3232.html
In the last ten years, only 38 covers out of 523 mocked religions, and only 7 covers out of 523 specifically mocked islam.
I don’t understand why so many writers say “Charlie Hebdo is obsessed with muslims, they have a problem with muslims”.
Charlie Hebdo are probably less “obsessed” with religion than fanatical religious organizations are obsessed with Charlie Hebdo and free speech.
Thanks Tonio, but you are talking to the wrong person. Glenn doesn’t have the slightest interest in learning about Charlie Hebdo. He wrote his own fictious views and then stuck his head in the sand, from which he is still shouting his ugly, uninformed, stupid mischaracterizations.
Glenn, in the last ten years, only 38 Charlie Hebdo covers out of 523 mocked religions, and only 7 covers out of 523 specifically mocked islam. But why let facts get in the way of your argument?
Back when he pretended to have some principles, Greenwald was able to see the need for defending freedom of speech while simultaneously exposing the insincerity of others who (only) claimed to be doing so:
But as his influence has steadily increased, Greenwald has been devolving into just another political player, choosing his positions based on the effect he will have on individuals and groups he either favors or disfavors. This is why, back in 2007, he was able to align himself with “rabid play-acting anti-Islamic warriors” to uphold the principle of freedom of speech, whereas, in 2015, upholding the principle is less important than discrediting those he dislikes. This is also why he chose to defend WikiLeaks and Assange instead of the fundamental principle of privacy.
The award is named “Freedom of Expression Courage Award”. The notion that one is “endorsing” Charlie Hebdo’s speech by recognizing the courage it took to publish it is simply inane. Was Greenwald endorsing the content of the Mohammed cartoons, or the “Opus” cartoons, when he agreed they should be republished?
Would the same people approve of giving “a [courage] award to a white supremacist leader who was murdered by someone objecting to his speech”? Well, it depends on the context, doesn’t it? Had other white supremacists already been murdered for their speech? Had the speech of a white supremacist group already resulted in world-wide protests, “many of [which] turned violent, resulting in at least 200 deaths globally”?[1] Had a celebrated white supremacist author been forced into hiding because of death threats issued in response to the publication of a novel?[2] In short, did the white supremacist have an entirely rational belief that his speech was placing him in mortal danger? If so, then yes, I would expect these same people to recognize the courage of that white supremacist. Comparing the cartoonists of Charlie Hebdo to a white supremacist outside of the context in which Charlie Hebdo was publishing is, once again, simply inane.
[1] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_controversy#International_protests
[2] “If PEN as a free speech organization can’t defend and celebrate people who have been murdered for drawing pictures, then frankly the organization is not worth the name,” Mr. Rushdie said. (NYT)
Barncat: Are you suffering from the same kind of withdrawal symptoms (after being stonewalled on a different subject – perhaps ‘related’ – as all are to disgruntled ‘customers’) as our ‘Unique’ friend?
I feel like an Idiot as I suggested he would answer your question in full .. although I think Sillyputty’s and others reply’s did a good job of putting that little puppy to bed.
I Will re – read post and ‘digest’ …
If you have a NON 0 POINT™ perhaps GG will ‘debate’ you on this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wE3fmFTtP9g
WG
“This is also why he chose to defend WikiLeaks and Assange instead of the fundamental principle of privacy.”
I don’t see any connected thoughts there, Can you explain your statement further, please?
I’m applying (or supporting) this: “Greenwald has been devolving into just another political player, choosing his positions based on the effect he will have on individuals and groups he either favors or disfavors.” I’m just introducing that idea here; obviously more evidence is required than the two cases that have been mentioned.
In the present case, he’s choosing to oppose people he dislikes, rather than join them in defense of the principle of free speech in spite of what he perceives to be their insincerity. In 2007, in almost the exact same situation, he made the opposite decision: he chose to defend the principle. (In 2007, he didn’t create a false choice, which was the point of thelastnamechosen’s excellent comment, below.)
In the case of WikiLeaks’ publication of the complete unredacted Sony archive, he chose to defend (actually, praise) Wikileaks rather than condemn it for contributing to the violation of the privacy of Sony and its employees. He chose to side with a group that he admires rather than defend the principle of privacy. (I argued that WikiLeaks has violated Sony’s privacy at great length in two previous threads; Greenwald denies this.)
This is absolutely hilarious – truly – since very little generates as widespread rage like speaking ill of the Charlie Hebdo martyrs. In fact, I can’t think of another issue that generated such intense disagreement even among my own readers since I supported the Citizens United decision on free speech ground in 2010 (along with the ACLU). And the fact that I did support CU decision, even knowing it would generate massive anger even among my own readers (which continues to today) further illustrates the utter stupidity and desperation of your accusation that I choose positions based on politics. My opposition to hate speech laws is further evidence of that.
The idea that I choose my positions based on outcomes is utterly laughable, and you picked the exact wrong day to make this claim, given that there is absolutely nothing good in terms of outcomes that can come from taking the position I’ve taken, and only bad.
Finally, you can try to turn this into a “Glenn Greenwald position” all you want, but the people in PEN who objected are very substantial and accomplished writers. It’s their cause. I’m just reporting on it and supporting it.
I am astonished by the flak being thrown at you for this essay. Especially as I have been impressed by many of these reposters in the past, as Mona. You were correct to pass on in full Ms Eisenberg’s superb letters as she exposes very well the weaknesses of the PEN position as expressed by Suzanne Nossel. Context is very important to this discussion and you have made it clear that this context is one of bias of the media of the west contra Muslims. The latter know this as analytical people every where know it. It is not courageous of CH to pile on when it is the stylish thing. The decision by PEN was deeply flawed because of such considerations.
I knew that would happen – both because it’s predictable and because it’s happened before. This is an issue that divides even people who are usually in general agreement with me. Many are ambivalent, while others (such as Mona) vehemently disagree.
And I understand why: these cartoonists obviously didn’t deserve to be slaughtered, but they were, and that generates intense emotions, which in turn makes any criticism of them difficult to swallow. There’s also the rational concern that it’s a real threat to liberty if people can’t criticize a major religion without risking death. I get all of that, and knew that my writing this would produce lots of opposition.
But I wrote it anyway, because I believe it.
That’s what makes Barncat’s accusation today particularly stupid.
When you lose Walter Cronkite, you’ve lost middle America.
When you lose Mona, Glenn, you’ve lost it all.
;-)
I replied to you under your other reply to me, above (27 Apr 2015 at 4:49 pm).
Real Hilarity ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1leDAwjtto
Customer’s always right Glenn / nearly rhymes with MSM
What about the stonewalling?
Nearly but nothing like.. Keep up the good work!
RP
i found your article to be trenchant, accurate, and right on the money, Glenn….while i will defend “freedom of speech” (to a point!), i do not defend the writers and cartoonists of Charlie Hebdo, who spent their time deliberately maligning Islam in any way they could, displaying insulting pictures of their Prophet, when these folks KNEW that such behaviour would drive the Muslims in France and every where else, almost insane with anger at such “blasphemous” behaviour….
of course this does not excuse their mass murders, but such behaviour by the more radically extremist Salafist and Wahhabi Muslims is almost to be expected…one cannot use reason with a fanatic.
that does not mean that people should not be able to criticise aspects of Islam…but one may do so, without deliberately insulting others….i agree with the writers who decided to criticise the choice by PEN to give this award to CH….and who, as a result decided to boycott the event in which the award would be given….
just as they used to say in the 60’s and 70’s in the US, there is Freedom, and then there is License…as explained by a philosophy writer, Montague Brown, at Saint Anselm College:
http://www.anselmphilosophy.com/read/?p=7
“…Freedom and license must not be confused:
freedom embraces responsibility and is guided by reason and virtue; license is choice without restraint…”
and further: “…License is the throwing off of all “responsibility. It is a carte blanche to do as we feel. As such, it is incompatible with virtue and destroys “community.
License, as the throwing off of all responsibility leads to absurd and dangerous action. On the personal level, license leads to “moral chaos. If my actions are based merely on whim or the “impulse of the moment, they are completely unpredictable, even to me. On the social level, license leads to anarchy — the lack of all dedication to the common good. This is obviously bad for the community, but license is also bad for those who exercise it. I strive to be free from responsibility rather than to be free to take charge of my
life.
License can cause damage in the very places where freedom enriches. If license rules in choosing topic and method, a history paper might not even remotely relate to history. Athletes cannot succeed in a sport by acting on mere whim, for each sport requires discipline, and team sports demand a high degree of cooperation. If the members of a society ignore all restrictions of “law, that society will not survive. License abandons personal responsibility and so loses the creative energy and fruitfulness of freedom…”
i think that the writers and cartoonists at CH were exercising License in their work….freedom without social responsibility…even though France is generally a very atheistic, secular, skeptical country, and they were expressing that view….there was no need to DELIBERATELY fan the flames of hatred and resentment among the Muslim minorities in France, who are already discriminated against, and many of whom live in poverty, unable to really get a solid footing in France, as the French simply do not accept them as being French in essence….
it seems to me in recent years that the very religion of Islam and its practitioners have become the new “bête noire” of Western countries…..despite the fact that very few of its practitioners have actually embraced the violent Jihadist path, and the fact that we in the west are not really as much in danger from such fanatics, as portrayed daily in the press, the entire religion has become a target of mass hatred and distrust by the brainwashed populations of the West…..if it weren’t so tragic it would be humorous to see such misinformation being taken as the bare facts…i see this kind of unreasoning bigotry every day in the comments sections to stories about “terror” issues….or even about Muslim people in general….any excuse, and all the haters come out of the closet to pile on the unsuspecting victim, who most often has done NOTHING to deserve that treatment.
we run into this all the time in Canada, when issues like women wearing the Hijab, or Niqab, come up….
people demand the freedom to be who they are and at the same time attempt to dictate to new immigrants, especially visible minorities, like the Muslims, that they MUST change all their cultural habits, and indeed their religion, and fail to see that these rights are protected, at least in Canada by our Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms….
while i do decry the deliberate murders of the CH staff, they should have known that their abusive actions towards Muslims would result in some kind of terrible retribution from the extremists….this does not mean that they should not have criticised Islamic practices which are undemocratic, or fanatical, but there are more skillful ways of doing so, without portraying the Prophet in such unsavoury ways….especially when they KNOW that this is forbidden in Islam, these days…..
The fact is Charlie Hebdo is not anti-Islam, it is anti-racist. Everyone with the slightest bit of information in France undestands that. It is only ignorant, xenophobic foreigners who do not understand that. Now, with all the discussion, even xenophobic foreigners have the ability to learn about Charlie Hebdo. Why Glenn and others here have chosen not to is only ugly anti-intellectualism. Hofstadter’s 1963 book, “Anti-Intellectualism in American Life” is still a relevant read.
The award to Charlie Hebdo has good logic behind it: the magazine was condemned and attacked under the orders of a government, namely al-Qaida in the Arabian Peninsula. AQAP gives orders and holds territory, and indeed, despite the 9/11 attacks, the world seemed much more comfortable with them ruling a third of Yemen than they are with the Houthis doing the same. I don’t see a difference between an al-Qaida order and an Iranian fatwa, nor do I see Rushdie’s “literary” irreverence as being so much more worthy of honor than Hebdo’s earthier artwork.
It is true, of course, that artists like Dieudonne have been persecuted for the tamest possible comments on the opposite side, and I certainly do not condone that. But when we in the U.S. have seen people like Terry Jones persecuted to a nearly equal degree – his insurance revoked, then his mortgage, so that his church would be shut down, and trumped-up prosecution for a procedure he deliberately cleared with police trying to avoid it – I don’t take those to be sign that Islam needs special consideration. To the contrary, many of us have indulged our irreverence of Christianity in excess, and it is only fair that occasionally the people who hold up as holy a raiding thug who had his critics murdered ought to hear a few words out of place too.
It might be an interesting gesture of fairness if some of the persecuted Muslims shared an award with Hebdo, except… well, when you think of corpses on one side and people dismissed by universities that disrespect academic freedom on the other, it seems a little too evenhanded.
The Democratic Party operatives in Amnesty International tried to co-opt the Occupy Chicago movement near their space at 500 W. Cermak.
Their pamphlet reeked of Madeleine “500,000-dead-children-were-worth-it” Albright.
So unable to co-opt it, Dems shut Occupy Chicago down.
“Nothing is easier than mocking and maligning the group in your society most marginalized and oppressed. People in the west have their careers destroyed when they’re accused of sympathizing with Islam, not for opposing it.”
Excellent work.
“Nothing is easier than mocking and maligning the group in your society most marginalized and oppressed.”
This isn’t an article about Prison Reform!
I take it that you haven’t tried to book a ticket into Yasser Arafat International Airport, as of late?!
http://america.aljazeera.com/watch/shows/america-tonight/articles/2014/7/25/dashed-dreams-howgazasshortlivedairportnevertookoff.html
This is a pretty good article. Just on the writing side, however, it is easy to fall into the habit of abusing helper words or phrases. In Glen’s case the word “quite” is seeing a good deal of usage. Example: “and its acolytes quite adeptly exploit.” If you leave out the word “quite,” would it affect the meaning?
Like this: “and its acolytes adeptly exploit”
Helper words and phrases can blunt or blur the force of your argument. Use them sparingly.
re: “Helper words..”
Holy Freaking (ht`sufi muslim) Schoolmarms!! Listen up, Toots.. Your ‘hall-monitoring’ days are over. Now, how about you put that ‘red pen’ back in the drawer from whence it came, and politely head on over to the local Bingo Hall for a frolicking good time..
Please.
#thedongerneedmartini
Why did your censor my contribution?
Mr. Wielgus..
Your contribution wasn’t censored. The // Intercept’s commentating functionality is archaic, and various postings (.. for whatever reason) never see the light of day.
An Enough Already Production
Roger, you actually understand and wrote about what Charlie Hebdo is about. I read your comment a few minutes ago. My comment was also not published because, apparently, Intercept does not like pointed critics.
“bullshit..”
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=top+gun+bullshit
Or better yet, maybe you fuk’dit.. (ht`mellow)
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/04/27/read-letters-comments-pen-writers-protesting-charlie-hebdo-award/#comment-126514
Roger Wielgus 27 Apr 2015 at 10:09 am
I would suggest to americans do not to try to understand the particularity of Charlie Hebdo. Charb, the killed chief editor would be horrified to know that his paper has been distinguished by an american authors association. Charb hated honors, prices, medals or any recognitions coming from whatever establish associations.
Charlie Hebdo is a journal with an old french tradition of anarchism, atheism and republican secularism. They are not racist at all as some PEN members seems to think. Far from being racist, That’s why they have never ridicule any human being, what ever his believe was. But they do frequelty ridicule any religion, judaism, islam, catholicism, but did never make fun about somebody being jews, christian or muslim. That’s a bis difference obviously some writers members of PEN did not understood.
Religions would not exist if they could not indoctrinate a child with the help of his parents. I am sure, that one day, in civilized nation, a child initiation of a religious belief will be stricktly forbidden in order to protect the child integrity. Charlie’s journalist did, for instance, and I agree with that, militate for such laws. I can imagine what such statement would trigger among american believers.
And Charlie Hebdo would, of course ridicule such reactions.
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/04/27/read-letters-comments-pen-writers-protesting-charlie-hebdo-award/#comment-126496
re: “The // Intercept’s commentating functionality is archaic..”
My sincerest apologies to The // Intercept, as it seems that it twas the all too familiar ‘human err’ that caused this latest ‘tremor in the force’.
But, my offer still stans..
A Stan’s Weathered Scrotum For A Preview Production
The most likely reasons are:
You had too many links.
You linked to a site some find might distasteful.
You corrected someone’s grammar or spelling.
You are a Spambot.
Some other reason
Some other reason….
Exactly, Glenn. I hope this also puts to rest the notion that, while holding these views ‘simultaneously’, one is essentially ‘blaming the cartoonists’ (barncat … and mona?).
ps. Also, since Sufi Muslim ain’t here right now, I would like to point out the killing of cartoonists because of ‘poor cartoons’* has absolutely nothing what-so-ever to do w/ Islam/muslims. (*where would it stop?)
So, there is that.
#hillbillystudentofIslam
sir `bah-a-lot..
re: sufi muslim sighting
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/04/24/central-war-terror-propaganda-tool-western-victims-acknowledged/#comment-125761
An I’m Down With The Honorable Madam Sufi Muslim Production
“what is really sad about the Non-Sufi variety is that it’s turning out to be a self-destructive cult.” ~ GH
Big gold nugget finally saves general hercules
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTSwkRpqtRg
A Fabric That Becomes Them Production™
#TheSufiNeedJustice too!
Classic!!
An And Ye Haw General Hercules Production™
“we’re turning out,,”?!
It has nothing to do with Traditional Islam — traditional, both exoteric-ally and esotaric-ally — especially if that Islam is firmly based on the Qur’an (for there are versions of Islam that are based on Hadith), or, generally speaking, if it’s the Islam of the Sufis, who tend to focus on self knowledge and development.
It does have something to do with some people who call themselves “Muslims” and claim that it is their religious duty to kill the innocent. But fortunately, we know the gymnastics they do to interpret the text, so we can throw the book at them.
See “Top Ten Ways Islamic Law forbids Terrorism”, by Juan Cole, at http://www.juancole.com/2013/04/islamic-forbids-terrorism.html
The word, islam, actually refers to an inner state, and a muslim is someone who experiences that state at varying degrees; no matter the label they have given to their outer religious or non-religious path.
So, when a person commits murder unjustly, he or she is considered to be NOT in the inner state of islam at the time they commit that act.
Consequently, many do not believe that the 911 evildoers were in the inner state of islam when they committed their final acts in this realm of existence.
The world of Islam is in a turmoil, to state the obvious. My reading of the current state of affairs is that things will continue to get worse.
It is extremely important to many Muslims that the West continues to provide freedom of speech, for the West is our last hope for the reformation of Islam/Muslims — the atmosphere in many Muslim majority countries is not conducive to the reformation.
Take, for example, the blasphemy laws, which many of us consider to be unjust and utterly un-Islamic.
Imagine someone critiquing it in countries like Saudi Arabia, UAE, and Pakistan?
They’ll be killed for even suggesting that these laws need to be reviewed, as happened to a provincial government in Pakistan a few years go.
P.S. I was on a Sufi spiritual retreat. However, my lack of commenting is also due to the fact that I don’t seem to have anything new to say.
great comments Sufi….this is exactly what i’ve learned from my minor exposure to Sufi teachings, through Rumi’s works, and the writings of Hazrat Inayat Khan….(the great Master who came to the west in the early part of the 20th century, and who was a great vina player)…..
actually as far as i know, the Mainstream Muslims do not accept Sufism as a legitimate practice…and Sufis are often targets of their misguided hatred, and misunderstanding….as mainstream Muslims find that many Sufi practices clash with what they’ve been taught by their extremist teachers…
Very well written article Glenn – Thank you!
See also
Charlie I am NOT
http://www.paulstreet.org/?p=1393
[snip]
ht`vj
To the 1% the 99% is “Charlie”. No, not “Charlie Hebdo” but “Charlie” as in VC, Victor Charlie, Viet Cong… as in legitimate targets, “militants”, “terrorists”.
You gotta read this piece by Ajamu Baraka:
The Charlie Hebdo White Power Rally in Paris | A Celebration of Western Hypocrisy
http://dissidentvoice.org/2015/01/the-charlie-hebdo-white-power-rally-in-paris/
And check out these articles from the WSWS:
“Free Speech” hypocrisy in the aftermath of the attack on Charlie Hebdo
wsws.org/en/articles/2015/01/09/pers-j09.html
After Charlie Hebdo attack, France announces draconian anti-terror
wsws.org/en/articles/2015/01/22/fran-j22.html
Political issues in the arson attack on France’s Charlie Hebdo
wsws.org/en/articles/2011/11/hebd-n17.html
Police crackdown after Charlie Hebdo attack spreads across Europe
wsws.org/en/articles/2015/01/19/trop-j19.html
France deploys 10,000 troops in wake of Charlie Hebdo attack
wsws.org/en/articles/2015/01/13/fran-j13.html
Anti-Muslim actions rise sharply in France after Charlie Hebdo Shooting
wsws.org/en/articles/2015/02/28/fran-f28.html
Top French policeman investigating Charlie Hebdo shooting found dead
wsws.org/en/articles/2015/01/17/fred-j17.html
European powers implement police state measures in wake of Charlie Hebdo attack
wsws.org/en/articles/2015/01/14/powe-j14.html
UK uses Charlie Hebdo attack to justify repressive powers
wsws.org/en/articles/2015/01/13/ukte-j13.html
See more here: wsws.org/en/topics/militarismCategory/ch-heb/
“a Charlie Hebdo cartoonist was fired by the magazine in 2009 for mocking Judaism: where were all the newfound free speech crusaders then?”
You’re linking to an early article on the “Siné affair”, and your description is quite inaccurate. Siné was fired by order of Philippe Val, the then editor-in-chief (and now arguably turned conservative), who disliked him and tried to found an excuse to sack him. Other people in the magazine (Cavanna, Willem) were in support of Siné, as were many people who afterwards bought Siné’s new magazine. Siné was eventually found innocent of all charges of the alleged antisemitism he was accused of and received a compensation for being fired under wrong pretences.
As for saying that [Charlie Hebdo’s] “primary targets” are not “groups more favored and powerful in the west”, this shows that you’re not familiar with this magazine, but only with broad caricatures of it as exclusively anti-Muslim, which it regrettably also was lately,.It is inscribed within an anarchistic, anti-power and liberal French tradition, especially in its 1970s incarnation. It is definitely not on the side of power.
“To advance from a nuanced dissent to a compelling vision, progressive policymakers should turn to the great mainstay of twentieth-century U.S. foreign policy: liberal internationalism… (which) should offer assertive leadership — diplomatic, economic, and not least, military — to advance a broad array of goals…”
Suzanne Nossel – Executive Director of PEN American Center
http://dissidentvoice.org/2013/04/u-s-cooption-of-the-human-rights-movement-continues/#more-48267
Group that has carried the torch for free speech and the power of the pen boycotts event in which writers died defending those abstractions. Wow. Just wow.
It’s time to start really fighting what Yeats dubbed “The Second Coming” or to slink away, fast, to the safe spaces left. If there any. It’s hard to think of a time when his injunction that “the best lack all conviction while the worst are full of passionate intensity” has resonated more powerfully. I go to The Guardian and hear calls –with all sincerity and many recommends before being removed –for shooting the boats full of drowning refugees, of pushing the dying under, of refusing those who survived medical treatment and think: What people feel free to say has passed from alarming to terrifying. I read an article like this and think: Where are the people willing to defend the fundamental right to free speech? Those wishing death on others have an ample platform. The people who should be pointing out how dangerous those sentiments are remain mute.
The ship of the (human) state is going down. Fast.
Although I disagree that the CH writers died “defending those abstractions” (in fact they were exercising the concrete reality of those abstractions), I agree with your feeling that “the best lack all conviction.” But which is worse: that the PEN objectors don’t feel up to fulfilling their prescribed roles, or that they feel their organization has failed them?
Hi Baldie. I meant “abstractions” in the sense that the notion that we make sacrifices for free speech or that there is a real cost to it remained, in many people’s minds (wrongly) theoretical. The moment they died, the CH writers and artists made the abstract literal.
Mona, I’m surprised that so many who normally champion free speech seem to be struggling with this. One can be critical of CH’s depictions and still defend –passionately and without reservation–their rights to publish what they believe. Acknowledging their sacrifice is firmly in line with PEN’s charter and purpose. Boycotting those who gave their lives while in the front lines of freedom of expression is not. I’m especially shocked at Prose and Ondaatje’s names being on that list.
I’m with you Minion! I’d only say that the WRONG PEOPLE for the WRONG REASONS are carrying the banner for the slaughtered Charlie Hebdo writers and cartoonist (and the survivors). It’s WHO is remaining mute about the danger (or even, like Glenn, overtly not supporting Charlie Hebdo in the face of this real and intolerable danger) that is troubling, not a lack of it. There is “support” and “alarm” from the David Frums of the world, which causes some to think that reason enough to withhold such sentiments.
Very good article. Who were the founding fathers of HRW? When the group appeared it seemed to have been set up – by whom, it was not entirely clear – to steal some of Amnesty’s thunder. But over time HRW staffers were able to move over to Amnesty and change its direction too. I wasn’t aware of Amnesty’s pro-Afghan War campaign but it makes sense as people like Nossell move through the ranks of these “human rights” orgs.
The Hypocrisy of Human Rights Watch
[snip}
So why has Human Rights Watch (HRW)—despite proclaiming itself “one of the world’s leading independent organizations” on human rights—so consistently paralleled U.S. positions and policies? This affinity for the U.S. government agenda is not limited to Latin America. In the summer of 2013, for example, when the prospect of a unilateral U.S. missile strike on Syria—a clear violation of the UN Charter—loomed large, HRW’s executive director Kenneth Roth speculated as to whether a simply “SYMBOLIC” bombing would be sufficient. “If Obama decides to strike Syria, will he settle for symbolism or do something that will help protect civilians?” he asked on Twitter. Executive director of MIT’s Center for International Studies John Tirman swiftly denounced the tweet as “possibly the most ignorant and irresponsible statement ever by a major human-rights advocate.”
note: Capitalized emphasis, mine.
cont’d..
[snip]
HRW’s accommodation to U.S. policy has also extended to renditions—the illegal practice of kidnapping and transporting suspects around the planet to be interrogated and often tortured in allied countries. In early 2009, when it was reported that the newly elected Obama administration was leaving this program intact, HRW’s then Washington advocacy director Tom Malinowski argued that:
The // Intercept:
Link to the NACLA.org site won’t post..
https:// nacla.org/article/hypocrisy-human-rights-watch
note: space between / n (.. 4th attempt to reference)
I’m still not quite understanding this argument.
If the government cynically exploits the rape of women toward their own ends then….something. Is rape supposed to be ignored now? Are people opposed to rape somehow now mindless followers of government propaganda?
Is their any moral position that isn’t cynically manipulated by the government and others towards their own ends?
Is nonviolence now a tarnished moral position because it can somehow be used denigrate “Muslims”?
It seems like this argument should be applied to specific individuals, not to an idea itself. The argument seems to be that prejudice should be fought with generalities instead of addressing it as a problem of specific individuals. I’m not sure if this is really the best message to send.
That’s correct.
It’s important to understand what the actual cause is being advanced. If the US Government – and their supporters – are railing against Saddam’s human rights abuses not because they care about human rights but because it’s an instrument for ginning up support for an invasion, that’s important to know, isn’t it? And it’s a good reason to be careful about how one joins that crusade.
One is free, obviously, to disagree with Teju Cole, Deborah Eisneberg and the other PEN writers who are objecting. But it’s pretty hard to claim their objection is unclear. They’re saying that awarding Charlie Hedbo is tantamount to endorsing the content of their speech, and the proof is that PEN wouldn’t give an award to a white supremacist leader who was murdered by someone objecting to his speech. “Free expression” is the pretense: admiration for the content is the reality. And they don’t admire the content and don’t think it merits awards.
If the controversy had been over an award being given to a murdered KKK leader who was killed because of his speech, nobody would have trouble understanding the objections. And that is the point. This is all about the content of the cartoonists’ views, no matter how hard people try to pretend that it isn’t.
Hi, On behalf of a dear friend of ours I would like you to re read this as I think it deserves an answer.
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/04/11/iranians-talked-much-sunday-morning-tv-never-heard/#comment-122833
I do have my own thoughts on what it discusses but most of all another dirty word has been introduced to ‘your’ wonderful comments section here at TI.
STONEWALLING: discuss…
Thank you for your time and effort as always… What ever words get bounded around ‘here’ I think the one thing we could ‘all’ get ‘pigeonholed’ with is having a strong desire for the truth.
We also like debate if it is ‘offered’.
Thank you
Rowan Park
P.S
StrongArm™ & FlySwatter™ will be introduced later ;)
#AskGreenwald #BDS
Give me a break with the terrible false equivalence. Charlie Hebdo is known for lampooning many different subjects. The only ones who responded with violence are devout Muslims. The answer is to create and support more free speech that offends, not back away under the nice sounding guise of multiculturalism that only applies to appeasing illiberal Muslims.
“Charlie Hebdo is known for lampooning many different subjects” ~ Idiot
PEOPLE “responded with violence”
“The answer is to create and support more free speech that offends people”… Because there are people who need offending.
Person X
OnOffensive™
“that’s important to know, isn’t it?” ~ GG
It is hard retain the ‘knowledge’ for many and difficult to digest before retention (Msm is powerful like that)
However the mounting ‘proof’ also makes it impossible to ‘ignore’, to which I think we ought to thank amongst others: some ‘great’ Journo’s!
WG
I agree, but we need to name the names of the guilty, not condemn everyone who thinks rape rooms don’t sound like a very good idea. (whether they are true or not)
For some reason people are having a real hard time coming out and saying that Charlie Hedbo is just like the Klan. If people feel that way–come out and say it. There really is no need to condemn a moral position simply because bad people have adopted that position for cynical purposes, and even less reason to condemn a moral position simply because naming the specific names of those bad people is too much work.
If the Charlie Hedbo writers are some of those bad people, clarity alone would be better served by a more direct argument. I assume there are very good reasons why so many people are dancing delicately around this issue instead of speaking their minds.
An interesting question that may help–If you could have changed history in one of two ways, which would you choose? You can take away the Klan’s ability to speak or take away the Klan’s ability to do violence. Which do you choose?
it’s a false choice, because words lead to violence.
Let’s see a show of hands. Below, lastnamechosen had this to say:
Who thinks Stéphane Charbonnier and his fellow slaughtered colleagues are usefully analogized to the Ku Klux Klan? If I agree that awarding a murdered Klansamn for his speech would not cause me to wish him to receive a courage award, what should that imply vis-a-vis my position on Stéphane Charbonnier’s assassination?
Who thinks one would see all the caveats, diffidence and hand-wringing contained in the public explanations of the withdrawing authors if Stéphane Charbonnier had been the Grand Wizard of a Klavern?
Mona, thanks for bringing this up. GG is the one who dragged the KKK example into it. I agree that it is a poor example.
If the KKK had been non-violent people who repeatedly publicized their beliefs and stood firm in the face of death threats, and eventually were killed for their beliefs … but they were not. They were the ones who made death threats and carried out death threats, and who suppressed the right to free speech of non-violent people and non-violent groups. It’s not because the KKK were wrong that we despise them so thoroughly. It’s because they used violence instead of persuasion in their attempt to prevail. Not that we would admire their thought processes and think they were good people if they had abandoned violence. No. Their views were offensive and wrong. But they made themselves despised because they chose killing as the way to win the argument.
In the Charlie Hebdo case, the cartoonists were non-violent and it was the assassins who tried to enforce their own rules by killing instead of by persuasion, so the KKK example just doesn’t fit.
But I do agree with lastnamechosen that “There really is no need to condemn a moral position simply because bad people have adopted that position for cynical purposes”. To me, it seems childish to claim that the cartoonists were not brave in their behavior. Are people with whom we disagree not brave merely because we disagree with them? Should we oppose a position when it turns out that people we hate are championing that position? Should we oppose the PEN decision because former government officials who previously pursued policies with which we disagree are the architects of the PEN decision? This seems so high-school-clique-ish. If Dick Cheney ever starts preaching against war, I’ll probably agree with him on that subject, regardless of how horrible I think he is.
Mona, I tried to show a hand concerning whether the comparison was apt, but my reply seems to have disappeared.
Charlie Hebdo is today’s Lustige Blätter, but even mention that publication on a Guardian forum and it will be deleted.
Chris Hedges on why I resigned from Pen after Suzanne Nossel was appointed head
http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=10019
There probably is a Chris Hedges column on this also but in a quick search I didn’t find it
From the transcript of the interview
http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/item/chris_hedges_resigns_from_human_rights_organization_pen_20130401
ht`don
well written