“Therefore whoever you see there, you kill”: Israeli soldiers in their own words on the savagery committed by IDF in Gaza
The Israeli group Breaking the Silence issued a report this morning containing testimony from Israeli soldiers about the savagery and criminality committed by the Israeli military during the attack on Gaza last summer. The Independent has a good article describing the report’s findings: “The Israeli military deliberately pounded civilian areas in the Gaza Strip with incessant fire of inaccurate ordinance” and “was at best indifferent about casualties among the Palestinian population.” At best.
This should surprise nobody who paid any attention to the brutal Israeli destruction of Gaza or, for that matter, countless Israeli attacks before that. The U.N. has said that 7 out of 10 people killed by the Israelis were civilians, “including 1,462 civilians, among them 495 children and 253 women”; video of Israelis killing four Gazan boys as they played on a beach sickened anyone decent.
Nonetheless, reading the accounts from these Israeli soldiers is revolting and important in equal parts. It shines considerable light on the reality of what Israeli loyalists have long hailed as “the most moral army in the world,” one unfairly held to a difference standard that ignores their great “restraint.”
The Intercept has chosen some selected, representative excerpts from the report, with the rank of the testifying soldier indicated (each one was granted anonymity by the report’s organizers). This is the savage occupying force known as the Israeli Defense Forces:
“Whoever you see there, you kill”
[A]fter 48 hours during which no one shoots at you and they’re like ghosts, unseen, their presence unfelt – except once in a while the sound of one shot fired over the course of an entire day – you come to realize the situation is under control. And that’s when my difficulty there started, because the formal rules of engagement – I don’t know if for all soldiers – were, “Anything still there is as good as dead. Anything you see moving in the neighborhoods you’re in is not supposed to be there. The [Palestinian] civilians know they are not supposed to be there. Therefore whoever you see there, you kill. . . .
The commander [gave that order]. “Anything you see in the neighborhoods you’re in, anything within a reasonable distance, say between zero and 200 meters – is dead on the spot. No authorization needed.” We asked him: “I see someone walking in the street, do I shoot him?” He said yes.
Did the commander discuss what happens if you run into civilians or uninvolved people?
There are none. The working assumption states – and I want to stress that this is a quote of sorts: that anyone located in an IDF area, in areas the IDF took over – is not [considered] a civilian. That is the working assumption. We entered Gaza with that in mind, and with an insane amount of firepower.
Shot a “grandpa” while he lay wounded on the ground
We were in a house with the reconnaissance platoon, and there was some soldier stationed at the guard post. We were instructed [during the briefings] that whoever’s in the area is dangerous, is suspect . . . .
A soldier who was in one of the posts saw an old [Palestinian] man approaching, so he shouted that some old man was getting near. He didn’t shoot at him – he fired near him. What I know, because I checked this, is that one of the other soldiers shot that grandpa twice. . . .
I went up to a window to see what was going on out there, and I saw there was an old man lying on the ground, he was shot in his leg and he was wounded. It was horrible, the wound was horrible, and he looked either dead or unconscious to me. . . . . And then after that, some guy from the company went out and shot that man again, and that, for me, was the last straw. I don’t think there was a single guy in my platoon who wasn’t shocked by that. It’s not like we’re a bunch of leftists, but – why? Like, what the hell, why did you have to shoot him again? One of the problems in this story is that there was no inquiry into it, at least none that I know of.
“Any person you run into: shoot to kill”
Staff Sargent, Engineering Corps:
They warned us, they told us that after a ceasefire the population might return . . . . The instructions were to open fire. They said, “No one is supposed to be in the area in which you will be” . . . .
[W]e asked, “Will the civilian population return? What will the situation look like now when we go in [to the Gaza Strip] again?” And they said, “You aren’t supposed to encounter the civilian population, no one is supposed to be in the area in which you’ll be. Which means that anyone you do run into is [to be regarded as] a terrorist.”
The instructions are to shoot right away. Whoever you spot – be they armed or unarmed, no matter what. The instructions are very clear. Any person you run into, that you see with your eyes – shoot to kill. It’s an explicit instruction.
No incrimination process is necessary?
Zero. Nothing.
Used tanks to crush Palestinians’ cars purely for “fun”
During the entire operation the [tank] drivers had this thing of wanting to run over cars – because the driver, he can’t fire. He doesn’t have any weapon, he doesn’t get to experience the fun in its entirety, he just drives forward, backward, right, left. And they had this sort of crazy urge to run over a car. . . .
I mean, a car that’s in the street, a Palestinian car, obviously. And there was one time that my [tank’s] driver, a slightly hyperactive guy, managed to convince the tank’s officer to run over a car, and it was really not that exciting– you don’t even notice you’re going over a car, you don’t feel anything – we just said on the two-way radio: “We ran over the car. How was it?” And it was cool, but we really didn’t feel anything. . . .
So he came back in, and right then the officer had just gone out or something, so he sort of whispered to me over the earphones: “I scored some sunglasses from the car.” And after that, he went over and told the officer about it too, that moron, and the officer scolded him: “What, how could you do such a thing? I’m considering punishing you,” but in the end nothing happened, he kept the sunglasses, and he wasn’t too harshly scolded, it was all OK, and it turned out that a few of the other company’s tanks ran over cars, too.
“The citizens of Gaza, I really don’t give a fuck about them”
It was during our first Sabbath. Earlier that day one of the companies was hit by a few anti-tank missiles. The unit went to raid the area from which they were fired, so the guys who stayed behind automatically cared less about civilians. I remember telling myself that right now, the citizens of Gaza, I really don’t give a fuck about them. They don’t deserve anything – and if they deserve something it’s either to be badly wounded or killed. . . .
So this old man came over, and the guy manning the post – I don’t know what was going through his head – he saw this civilian, and he fired at him, and he didn’t get a good hit. The civilian was laying there, writhing in pain. We all remembered that story going around, so none of the paramedics wanted to go treat him. It was clear to everyone that one of two things was going to happen: Either we let him die slowly, or we put him out of his misery. Eventually, we put him out of his misery, and a D9 (armored bulldozer) came over and dropped a mound of rubble on him and that was the end of it. In order to avoid having to deal with the question of whether he was booby-trapped or not – because that really didn’t interest anyone at that moment – the D9 came over, dropped a pile of rubble on his body and that was it. Everyone knew that under that pile there was the guy’s corpse. . . . .
What came up during the investigation when the company commander asked the soldier, was that the soldier spotted a man in his late 60s, early 70s approaching the house. They were stationed in a tall house, with a good vantage point. The soldier spotted that guy going in his direction, toward his post. So he shot in the direction of his feet at the beginning. And he said the old man kept getting closer to the house so he shot a bullet beneath his left ribs. Kidney, liver, I don’t know what’s in there. A spot you don’t want to be hit by a bullet. That old man took the bullet, lay down on the ground, then a friend of that soldier came over and also shot the man, while he was already down. For the hell of it, he shot two more bullets at his legs. Meanwhile there was a talk with the commander, and because this was happening amidst a battalion offensive, it really didn’t interest anyone. “We have casualties up front, don’t bother us, do what you need to do.”
Shelling and machine-gunning “every house we passed” – then taking them over and using them
Staff Sargent, Engineering Corps:
I got the impression that every house we passed on our way got hit by a shell – and houses farther away too. It was methodical. There was no threat. It’s possible we were being shot at, but I truly wouldn’t have heard it if we were because that whole time the tanks’ Raphael OWS (machine guns operated from within the tanks) were being fired constantly. They were spraying every house with machine gun fire the whole time. . . .
[D]uring our walk there was no sign of any face-off or anything. There was a lot of shooting, but only from us.
How is the sweeping of a house conducted, when you enter it?
We would go in ‘wet’ (using live fire). I could hear the shooting, everything was done ‘wet.’ When we entered this house everything inside it was already a mess. Anything that could shatter had been shattered, because everything had been shot at. Anything made of glass – windows, a glass table, picture frames – it was all wrecked. All the beds were turned over, the rugs, the mattresses. Soldiers would take a rug to sleep on, a mattress, a pillow. There was no water, so youcouldn’t use the toilet. So we would shit in their bathtub.
“By the time we got out of there, everything was like a sandbox”
Staff Sargent, Mechanized Infantry:
By the time we got out of there, it was all like a sandbox. Every house we left – and we went through three or four houses – a D9 (armored bulldozer) came over and flattened it. . . .
First of all, it’s impressive seeing a D9 take down a big two-story house. We were in the area of a fairly rich, rural neighborhood – very impressive houses. We were in one spot where there was a house with a children’s residence unit next door – just like in a well-off Moshav (a type of rural town) in Israel. The D9 would simply go in, take down part of the wall and then continue, take down another part of the wall, and leave only the columns intact. At a certain point it would push a pile of sand to create a mound of rubble and bring down other parts, until the house was eventually left stripped, and from that point it would simply hit the house [with its blade] until it collapsed. The D9 was an important working tool. It was working nearly non-stop.
Randomly obliterating homes with no warning, for revenge
On the day the fellow from our company was killed, the commanders came up to us and told us what happened. Then they decided to fire an ‘honor barrage’ and fire three shells. They said, “This is in memory of ****.” That felt very out of line to me, very problematic. . . .
A barrage of shells. They fired the way it’s done in funerals, but with shellfire and at houses. Not into the air. They just chose [a house] – the tank commander said, “Just pick the farthest one, so it does the most damage.” Revenge of sorts. So we fired at one of the houses. Really you just see a block of houses in front of you, so the distance doesn’t really matter.
Photo of smoke from an Israeli air strike rising over the Gaza Strip on July 14, 2014 at the Israeli-Gaza border. (Ilia Yefimovich/Getty Images)
Damn. After watching Glenn’s Bloggingheads interview, I am currently trying to process my deep, unsettling, and overwhelming jealousy towards that little black and tannish dog. Envy – it’s a deadly sin and all that, but I can’t help it. Anyways, while pondering this it occurred to me that I hadn’t commented on the content of this article, so I thought I should. I feel bad for Israel, their situation is like some sort of impossible philosophical conundrum in means-ends and I see no actual way of solving it. And in the meantime, we witness year after year of the water level slowly being lowered. This should be a horrible and painful lesson to any human that has to witness it, and it doesn’t require finger-pointing. Sam Harris has said that Israel has been brutalized, meaning ‘made brutal by’ this scenario, I think GG almost made a similar point on Beck’s show before he was cut off (not about Israel, but in general, when he said that ongoing violence eventually degrades populations). I’m really sorry for the people suffering on both sides here. It’s a horrible lesson in how the world can be, given certain dynamics.
@Cindy I can only post 1 link… so here’s an updated Cindy Pic with link to CAT NAMES™
https://twitter.com/00AnonGhost00/status/596426757525372928
Have a Nice Day ;)
`o-mazine frolicking in ‘tweetsville’?!?!
A Humbled Dong Production
https://youtu.be/IJqut44z99M
“Marlon Brando rode his Harley, that wide son-of-a-Miff..”
Son-of-a-Miff…. I hear production bells
H/T Cindy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbEoRnaOIbs&feature=youtu.be&t=202
Röyksopp To The Sea..
A Signature Production
cheers`
Yes one of Silly’s favourites too!
https://twitter.com/NSA_PA0/status/596484682688143360
#DongerGetsJusitice™
Thanks again for such attention. Here’s my favorite song (well, one of my faves):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjSG6z_13-Q
https://twitter.com/NSA_PA0/status/596479249357365248
The Intercept
Why is it important for the Israeli government to keep the Palestinians separate politically?
“Doubling: The Faustian Bargain
Generally speaking, doubling involves five characteristics. There is, first, a dialectic between two selves in terms of autonomy and connection. The individual Nazi doctor needed his Auschwitz self to function psychologically in an environment so antithetical to his previous ethical standards. At the same time, he needed his prior self in order to continue to see himself as humane physician, husband, father. The Auschwitz self had to be both autonomous and connected to the prior self that gave rise to it. Second, doubling follows a holistic principle. The Auschwitz self “succeeded” because it was inclusive and could connect with the entire Auschwitz environment: it rendered coherent, and gave form to, various themes and mechanisms, which I shall discuss shortly. Third, doubling has a life-death dimension: the Auschwitz self was perceived by the perpetrator as a form of psychological survival in a death-dominated environment; in other words, we have the paradox of a “killing self” being created on behalf of what one perceives as one’s own healing or survival. Fourth, a major function of doubling, as in Auschwitz, is likely to be the avoidance of guilt: the second self tends to be the one performing the “dirty work.” And, finally, doubling involves both an unconscious dimension — taking place, as stated, largely outside of awareness — and a significant change in moral consciousness. These five characteristics frame and pervade all else that goes on psychologically in doubling. ”
http://www.holocaust-history.org/lifton/LiftonT418.shtml
LIFTON – “Misuse of the Healing Professions for Torture
American psychologists and physicians are not Nazi doctors, but they, too, became involved in a medicalization of brutality that was meant to legitimate torture. They, too, were placed in atrocity-producing situations, sanctioned by higher authorities for the conduct of American counterinsurgency wars.
All torture is profoundly wrong. Torture by psychologists and physicians specifically undermines professional institutions and professional ethics crucial to a democracy. We need to confront these violations fully and take appropriate political and legal action — in government, courts and professional organizations. To do less is to be complicit.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/17/opinion/misuse-of-the-healing-professions-for-torture.html?_r=0
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment
The Milgram experiment ,studied participants’ willingness to obey an authority figure who instructs them to perform acts conflicting with their personal conscience.
Partpcipants were divided into two groups — teachers and learners. At each wrong answer, the learner received an electric shock from the teacher. The teachers believed they were using actual electric shocks. As long as there was an authority figure telling them to continue, the teachers kept grinding up the voltage, never mind the screams coming from the learners.
The Stanford Prison Experiment studied the psychological effects of becoming a prisoner or a prison guard. Participants were randomly selected to be either a prisoner or a guard. Again,the guards began to enjoy their psychological power over the prisoners. An experiment that was to last two weeks was stopped after six days.
Nothing to see here, Just Following Orders,Sir!
The prisoners and guards ‘experiments’ were tainted by the manipulative behaviour of one participant who figured out how to game the set up for his own benefit. I read a report on this some time ago, but no longer have the reference. Ask Milgram!
“Palestine: Students Detained for Political Opinions
“Two different interrogators came in,” he said. “They started cursing my mother, cursing my sisters, slapping me around. Then they punched me, while asking questions about how Hamas won the elections.”
He said the officers forced him to stand with his legs and arms spread apart, from 11 p.m. to 10:30 a.m., then continued the interrogation until they released him at about 5 p.m. They refused to give him food or water, Salim said.”
https://www.hrw.org/news/2015/05/07/palestine-students-detained-political-opinions-0
This extract posted in this context is risible, demeaning, obscene and utterly shameless. Some courage it takes to sit at your keyboard comparing Israelis to Nazi Doctors. Some courage it takes to walk down the streets of APARTHEID AMERICA in your probably white skin feeling the Palestinians’ pain. Careful you don’t choke on that double latte.
Robert Jay Lifton – “Genocidal Mentality: Nazi Doctors and the Holocaust”
“The killing of a large number of people requires a virtue”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Cb-CwiLhO0
Lifton – “It shouldn’t be said that Nazi doctors and Nazis generally didn’t have a conscience, but it was applied in the wrong place. It was applied to loyalty to his comrades and to the Nazi movement rather than interposing it between himself and his victims, which is where a conscience belongs.”
interesting point of view.
Here’s a problem, before serving actual citizens of Israel, Jewish ones, non-Jewish ones, and those living without a vote, under military occupation, it is Israel’s duty: to consider “its Jewish non-citizens”
that’s right Israel’s Jewish “non-citizens”.
An interesting concept of democracy. Yes, the actual living breathing Jews voters might want peace, non-Jews, living without a vote might want justice, but unfortunately their interests must be weighed against the needs of “Jewish non-citizens”.
“The State of Israel was created to be a safe haven and a home for any Jew at any time, and is unreservedly open to Jewish immigrants, regardless of their health, age, financial situation or other factors.
The unique nature of Jewish history and the global scourge of anti-Semitism over the ages prompted Israel’s founders and political leaders to enter that provision explicitly into law.
In that sense, the State of Israel, as a Jewish state, is more than just a state of its citizens; it is also potentially the state of its Jewish non-citizens as well.
In the three ways described above, the State of Israel is precisely the Jewish and democratic state it aspires to be. It is culturally Jewish by design and hegemony, it is fully democratic and grants equal rights and protections to all its citizens and, finally, it remains a potential home for Jews everywhere, for better and for worse.
The need to maintain the delicate balance among those three elements is what makes separating politically from the Palestinians so very crucial for Israel.”
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/Inside-out-A-Jewish-and-democratic-Israel-344419
“separating politically from the Palestinians so very crucial for Israel”
“separate but equal”, It is an interesting version of democracy, but it is not a new one:
“Because humans crave justice, salient suffering or inequalities activate an injustice dissonance within us. Too often, we alleviate that dissonance, not by addressing the injustice, but by creating an illusion of justice through assumptions, arguments, or stereotypes about the blameworthiness of the victim. “
“The state of Israel was created to be a home for any Jew at any time.”
I am acquainted with several East Europeans, Russians, who sometimes spend time in Israel. When the opportunity to migrate to Israel opened for Russian Jews, there sprang up a new industry. Selling and buying grandmothers and grand fathers, sort of a remake of Gogol’s Dead Souls. Only one grandparent with nominally Jewish roots was needed to emigrate to Israel and quite an industry sprung up to create the proper paperwork. In Israel, they were provided with housing, and other benefits, at the expense of Palestinians. Many of these people do not live full time, if at all,in Israel. They retain dual citizenship. Most are not religious, their connection to “Jewishness” is tenuous at best. Most of them have no concept or sympathy for Palestinians. The Palestinians just do not exist for them.
Isreal’s defence minister: : ”the IDF had done what it had to do then, “did it again in the Gaza Strip, [and] will do it in any round of hostilities in the future.””
“Ya’alon recounted targeting decisions in which he was involved when it first became apparent that Hezbollah was purposely placing weapons in civilian homes in Lebanon.
The defense establishment had a “dilemma of what to do with it,” he said. “If we don’t intercept the rocket-launchers in advance, civilians will be hurt, if not killed. If we hit the launchers, it will hurt or kill Lebanese civilians.”
He said a “long, deep discussion” regarding the “moral and legal considerations” took place before the final decision to strike the rocket launcher.
“Later we were blamed for collateral damage and killing civilians,” he said. But he maintained that the IDF had done what it had to do then, “did it again in the Gaza Strip, [and] will do it in any round of hostilities in the future.”
http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Politics-And-Diplomacy/Yaalon-After-Gaza-war-decisions-I-can-still-look-at-myself-in-the-mirror-402189
Hmmm,
“Probing specific incidents of civilian fatalities in last summer’s Gaza war won’t alone contribute to uncovering the truth. An external probe must be launched that examines every level of official involved, and especially politicians.”
“The Supreme Court’s ruling on the 1956 Kafr Qasem massacre stated that “a black flag … like a warning sign saying ‘Stop!’” flies over any order to shoot indiscriminately even at the price of killing innocents. “The illegality is glaringly apparent to the eye and infuriating to the heart, if the eye isn’t blind and the heart isn’t stony or corrupt,” the ruling said.
The Breaking the Silence report also reveals that the IDF tried to create the impression that the number of civilians killed was smaller than it really was – for instance, by classifying women who didn’t participate in the fighting but were shot to death as “terrorists.” There is also testimony about prima facie breaches of the obligation to take precautions to avoid harming civilians, as well as breaches of the prohibition on attacking a military target if disproportionate harm to civilians can be anticipated.
What is especially troubling about the report is the impression that these weren’t exceptional incidents, but settled policy. Therefore, investigating these specific incidents alone won’t contribute to uncovering the truth. An external probe must be launched that examines every level of official involved, and especially the elected politicians, because they’re the ones who bear responsibility for the policy that was implemented. “
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/1.655156
Hmmm: “The brigade commander was sentenced to pay the symbolic fine of 10 prutot (old Israeli cents)”
“On October 29, 1956, during the first day of the Sinai war, three Border Police received a command to shoot anyone who broke the curfew imposed on Kafr Qasem.
The troops shot and killed 47 of the village’s residents as they were making their way home from work, unaware of the newly imposed curfew. Among the dead were women and children.
The soldiers involved in the incident were sentenced to lengthy prison terms, but all received pardons. The brigade commander was sentenced to pay the symbolic fine of 10 prutot (old Israeli cents). “
http://www.haaretz.com/news/president-peres-apologizes-for-kafr-qasem-massacre-of-1956-1.235632
This is good news:
“”It brings it much closer to closure, especially from the city’s point of view,” said Flint Taylor, an attorney who has been pursuing the torture issue for decades and was one of the lawyers who negotiated the reparations package. “But it’s not done and over.”
Taylor and other lawyers have said as many as 120 men, mostly African-Americans, were tortured from early 1972 to late 1991. Burge and his detectives had gained a reputation for solving brutal murders, rapes and deadly arsons in some of the South Side’s most violent neighborhoods by obtaining confessions.
Increasingly, however, suspects and their lawyers claimed that the officers used suffocation, electric shock and even Russian roulette to coerce the confessions, but those claims routinely were ignored by Cook County prosecutors and rebuffed by criminal court judges.”
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-burge-reparations-emanuel-met-20150414-story.html#page=1
… such ground is solid, the feet do not slip upon it.
cc USDOJ
A Production
I can call my cat “holocaust” if I wish.
Don’t tell Americans what they can and cannot call something.
I can call hatred of Muslims and cartoonish portrayals of their prophet sociopathically retarded, too.
I can call British people mentally regressive in their worship of royals and snobs.
I can call David Frum and David Brooks idiots, and Mona, too.
I can do as I damn well please.
“Don’t Bend; Don’t Water It Down; Don’t Try to Make It Logical; Don’t Edit Your Own Soul According to the Fashion” ~ Anne Rice (NOT Kafka)
“Oasis guitarist Noel Gallagher, who is recovering from a rib injury after being attacked on stage in Canada, once snorted cocaine in Queen Elizabeth’s private toilet.
The musician has confessed to snorting the Class A drug at 10 Downing Street when he was invited to a reception by then Prime Minister Tony Blair shortly after he came into power in 1997. The lavatory, at the British Prime Minister’s residence, is reserved exclusively for the ruling monarch, and no one else has permission to enter.” ~ Some Internet Rag
“I can call British people mentally regressive in their worship of royals and snobs.” ~ Cindy
We are trying to elect a government at present… during this time we Brits suspend all mentally regressive worship of royals and snob$.
OFF WITH HER HEAD/or skip to the lavatory?
Flies in the buttermilk, Shoo fly shoo! (3x)
Skip to my Lou, my darling.
Lou, Lou skip to my Lou! (3x)
Skip to my Lou, my darling.
(sound sad) Lost my partner, What will I do? (3x)
Skip to my Lou, my darling.
Lou, Lou skip to my Lou, (3x)
Skip to my Lou, my darling.
(sound happy) I’ll get another one just like you! (3x)
Skip to my Lou, my darling!
Lou, Lou skip to my Lou! (3x)
Skip to my Lou, my darling.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKeoOnSvXn4
Worzel Gummidge 0062
Worzel & Aunt Sally dance
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9xeIlp4T2E&feature=youtu.be&t=100
The Scarecrow Hop (dirt style)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MEbThXI1ZY
Oh come on, your nation’s addiction to snobs and royals is like our belief in exceptionalism – ridiculous.
I was there for two years among quite annoyingly rich company, and although the education is second to none, and the eccentricities more beautiful than anything I’ve seen elsewhere, the entrenched idea of an immovably superior upper class thrives there with the willing acceptance of the Sun-reading simple-minded folk and the Guardian-reading smug folk who are just like our populace, largely ‘along for the ride.’
It’s The Telegraph and The Times people who rule, there (I think those are the names, if not, sue me).
If you guys were all Russell Brand or Roger Waters, it would be one thing, and “we Brits suspend all mentally regressive worship of royals and snob$” would be more believable to me.
This seems very critical, but I’m still miffed at you making fun of me, so please know beneath it all I believe in the immovable British spirit, which in my opinion is more about *brilliantly and successfully mocking pretense* as a strength than directly challenging a potentially embarrassing establishment power. I wish you and your fine country all the best!
A well established ridiculousness.. I was attempting sarcasm. And will comment on this another time (dead tired)
Russell Brand Destroys MSNBC Talk Show Host – Discusses Bradley Manning And Edward Snowden
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynUjo99Gzbk
A hope this un-miffs somewhat Production for Cindy Only™
https://twitter.com/00AnonGhost00/status/596250679762640896
That’s a lovely picture. Not blonde enough to be me, but thanks. Not miffed anymore.
so you got the other part?
http://worzelgummidge.bandcamp.com/track/cindy
I am in the middle of a production so i’ll check in later…
So glad you are not miffed! Take care. R
I would love to talk about Britishness: Re: *brilliantly and successfully mocking pretence*
(I think those are the names, if not, sue me) Grauniad etc + Ruling Rags: I hear ‘front page’ Financial Times is a good for world view awareness.
I believe when old Chomsky visits he gets a copy of every paper……
“the audience is the product. The product is privileged people, just like the people who are writing the newspapers, you know, top-level decision-making people in society. You have to sell a product to a market, and the market is, of course, advertisers (that is, other businesses). Whether it is television or newspapers, or whatever, they are selling audiences. Corporations sell audiences to other corporations. In the case of the elite media, it’s big businesses.” ~ Chomsky
“The introduction to Animal Farm was about “Literary Censorship in England” and what it says is that obviously this book is ridiculing the Soviet Union and its totalitarian structure. But he said England is not all that different. We don’t have the KGB on our neck, but the end result comes out pretty much the same. People who have independent ideas or who think the wrong kind of thoughts are cut out.” ~ Chomsky
Directly challenging a potentially embarrassing establishment power….. Here the brilliantly and unsuccessful mocking as you see it is not at fault and there is no ‘real’ hiding behind it or pretence…. it is one way of speaking out. Establishment power may well impossible to unseat with British mocking Kung-Fu…………. #TellRussell
Old Roger sent his kids to private school (well he could afford it): “We don’t need no [State] Education.”
On the Roger subject, I water skied with him in Long Island many moons ago….. although (as I told our dear ‘unique’ friend Oldputty) the last thing he said to me was “fuck off Rowan” …. due to a miffing incident that occurred after a WALL performance.
Hope you liked the above ‘production’ link…. But if it was not self explanatory try this old Queen on the Joanna
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2e4NlnLr28
I wish you and your fine world all the best
Long live America ;)
@Cindy
So the person who scolds long-dead philosophers for their anti-semitism, and who indignantly condemns mockery of what others deem sacred, cracks wise about naming her cat “holocaust.”
You’re a funny one, Cindy. Funny-strange, not funny ha-ha.
But it is illustrative, is it not, of the idea that the word doesn’t possess the same kind of sanctity for everybody. Cindy is obviously not anti-Jewish, nor is she oblivious of the history. But she’s making a reactive point.
Of course it can hold a sacred significance if one is Jewish. But let me illustrate. While not on the same level as the Holocaust discussion, a Muslim is taught from the day s/he is born, not to put her feet above the Quran, because it’s supposed to be so sacred. It’s drilled into your head, as everytime you do it, someone reprimands you. That’s why, the Turkish woman with the twitter picture of her feet on the Koran is so significant. (Mona’s link: http://www.opposingviews.com/i/religion/islam/woman-arrested-posting-photo-herself-stepping-quran). Of course it’s no where comparable to a discussion of the word Holocaust, because 6 million lives are not involved with the former, but that’s the point. It’s possible for me to think about it in my head as analogous, because it doesn’t hold the same kind of sacred meaning. I can equate the idea of someone using the word Holocaust irreverently, to the idea of someone being irreverent to the Quran, and it makes no difference in my head. Maybe it should, but it doesn’t. Cindy making a crack about the word Holocaust is no more a stretch. You might think that this is a ridiculous example, but I’m just giving you an example of how the word affects me. Maybe it should affect me differently, but in some ways, and in some situations, it can also be analogous to “everyday” situations. And it’s still fair. You don’t know what the word for Holocaust or Genocide or relevant word for their particular attrocity is for the Tutsis. It’s unfair to assume that the Holocaust should have any more emotional significance to people who’re not associated with it.
It may be irreverent of Cindy to make a joke about it. But that’s the extent of it. There’s nothing more to be read into it. Honestly.
I have an Irish Catholic friend from Northern Ireland. He refuses to use “Northern Ireland.” You ask him where he’s from, he says “I’m from the North of Ireland.” He believes it in his heart, soul and head, that he’s from occupied Irish Territory, ruled over by the Brits. We joke to him about it, but he never thinks it’s funny. Words have different meanings, and it doesn’t attribute any malice, just because someone makes a joke. I love my friend.
Years ago I visited Auschwitz with a non-Jewish friend. We took a train to get there. My friend thought it was hilarious that I was a Jew on a train to Auschwitz, and made various jokes about my imminent death. And that was fine. I laughed with him. Because he was my friend.
Cindy is not my friend.
If a Tutsi ever starts commenting here, crack some “irreverent” jokes about Hutu massacres and see how it goes over.
@Gator90 –
I would never have the bad taste or insufficient sense to name a cat “holocaust.” I don’t actually have a cat.
I’m unfortunately under the awkward impression that I’m getting dismissed for being young, and I really didn’t explain myself well there. I was making a point, being deliberately provocative as an extreme example, but your understandable offense at my remark evidently derailed it for you. I take responsibility for that.
Freedom of speech is ideally accompanied by sensitivity to others’ beliefs and history – something which has been much discussed here lately. If we can indeed agree that respect for myriad cultures *should* temper our demand to speak freely, and if we can agree that our speaking freely is integral to honest communication, then although you’re not my friend at least I’ve articulated my point better.
I think we can agree on those things.
`cindy (aka – ‘grasshopper’)
>”I can do as I damn well please.” ~ loo
It’s not time to make a change … https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTSCLgvinfA
And you wonder why we might not take you seriously …
It is still the words you type.
So, Sen. Bernie Sanders is now running for POTUS “against” (?) Hillary Clinton.
He is so right about all his positions.th
Except on Israel.
He was one of 100 Senators who unanimously voted in favor of Israel’s murderous attack against Gaza last summer.
The question all of us should be asking is this:
Why can Sen. Sanders be so “right” about so many “progressive” issues, yet come out so wrong-headed regarding the criminal apartheid State of Israel?
I would like to see journalists question him in depth on his undying support of such a heinous nuclear armed state.
I could never support him regarding his position on Israel. He needs to do some serious soul-searching on this issue.
He also doesn’t want to reduce the ‘Defense budget’ to less than it is now. His ‘criticism’ of the military-industrial complex is non-existent, and amounts to not wanting to increase military spending above the mind-blowingly absurd levels it is at now. Bernie Sanders does not want to annoy the establishment, he simply wishes, like Elizabeth Warren (who also supports corrupted Zionism) and Rand Paul (who also supports corrupted Zionism) to contribute to the ‘theater’ of politics in such a way that people do not lose faith in it altogether, as they damn well should.
Why the U.S. Congress is so beholden to Israel? Here is former Congressman James Abourezek’s täke on it: “I was threatened, marginalized, attacked, lied about. . . in an effort to silence my criticism of Israel’s policies and the lobby.”
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article30640.htm
Paul Findley, ex US Congressman, wrote “They Dared to Speak Out” in the 1970’s about what happens to lawmakers if they do.
It is hard to see how this stranglehold can be broken. The first charge that will be leveled is “anti-semitism”, this term has almost religious meaning in the U.S., akin to questioning whether the sun circles the earth, and all effort will then be expended in proving that you are not a camel.
Those who have the gold rule,and blackmail.2 reasons for pols prostration.
DAESH fighters and commanders take the same position (there are no civilians, just legitimate targets) and the US government and media calls them the worst of humanity. IDF fighters and commanders, though, well they are called the best of humanity. Even Orwell would have been impressed (in a horrified way) at that level of disconnect from reality.
The best way, by far, to commit blasphemy against all 3 of the Abrahamic religions (choose the corresponding text): http://www.opposingviews.com/i/religion/islam/woman-arrested-posting-photo-herself-stepping-quran
h/t SillyPutty and Chlorpromazine
The straps on my red slippers were cutting into my feet (even though I’m down to a svelte 225). I had to give them up, mona … for it is written; if you cut a man, he will cry out!
*Also, unlike Glenn, I don’t ‘oppose’ the PEN award to Charlie, per se’. I just think it was misplaced and, considering the circumstances, ‘discretion would have been the better part of valor.’ And I’m quite sure that for countless Muslims around the world, blasphemy does not disprove their faith.
(There is also the matter, and I think Glenn would agree, of how, to a considerable degree, the tragedy of Charlie has been seamlessly co-opted as a PR event for the g.w.o.t. … but that’s another story.)
~ see you around midnight at the oasis … https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4PaBAtty-g
That’s been his primary objection since the PEN award was announced. My reply has simply been: “Even so.”
To me, letting what gives David Frum a woody dictate my approval of a deserved award is…I just can’t.
Ik rite! You got Frum’s woody on one side and ‘big foot’ Louise quilled-up on the other. Talk about a rock and a hard place …
*take a walk on the wild side … https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HE0xRY8KRuI&list=PLH1T4hFzSPe6Z9y9Nun4X2WBbKfdGxKXm&index=8
What do any of the comments on this page have to do with Israeli war crimes? Has some ziotroll diverted the conversation?
On two levels the word “holocaust” has special applicability to Jews. From the Oxford online dictionary:
—————————————-
Definition of holocaust in English:
noun
1Destruction or slaughter on a mass scale, especially caused by fire or nuclear war:
a nuclear holocaust
the threat of imminent holocaust
1.1 (the Holocaust) The mass murder of Jews under the German Nazi regime during the period 1941–45. More than 6 million European Jews, as well as members of other persecuted groups, such as gypsies and homosexuals, were murdered at concentration camps such as Auschwitz.
2 historical A Jewish sacrificial offering that is burned completely on an altar.
—————————-
The Holocaust of the Jews by the third Reich fits all three definitions, but especially numbers 1.1 and 2.
After millennia of being a despised minority, including by Christian Europe, Jew-hatred eventually led to an almost completely successful attempt to eliminate Jews as a people, with the use of, among other things, crematoria. If it is suggested that Gator and other Jews are somehow being stingy in not wanting to “share” the significance of this word with others, well, they have the unfortunate honor of having imbued it with the meaning that has caused other groups to “covet” the applicability of term.
Yes, it is true that Zionists obscenely exploit the Holocaust for propagandistic ends, but it nevertheless remains true that “holocaust” especially fits what happened to Jews at the hands of Nazis in the era of WWII in a way it fits no other group.
I think that the actions of Columbus fit the first example of the holocaust / genocide in the new world. The Arawaks, I have read were the indigenous people who welcomed Columbus.
They were said to be totally eradicated from the planet by indiscriminate murders, and separating the men and women so that all energies went into working the mines, while their personhoods and their genetic futures died away.
I suppose the recognition of that is why support for Columbus Day is fast disappearing, but sadly, holocausts and genocides are not. In America, the first fascists were the Puritans——- and they are still here.
Just recalling from undergrad courses and later reading, the Arawaks Columbus met died of: wars with other indigenous populations, from European diseases to which they had no immunity, and from Spanish attempts to turn them into slaves for gold mining. If so, while tragic, that’s not the same programmatic fate the Nazis inflicted on Jews.
You are splitting hairs, Mona. And yes, while Jews were at the top of the list, many, many peoples ended up in the camps for being less than human.
The programmatics may be different in times past but the end goal was the same.
How about the Aztecs and associated tribes?They had an expansion program of murder also.Human frailty is humanwide.Didn’t American natives war on each other?
Didn’t Japan experience a nuclear holocaust?
Hiroshima and Nagasaki sure did. The point was to kill people, to do something so horrific Japan would surrender.
“More than 6 million European Jews, as well as members of other persecuted groups,”
The number of dead in the camps has been co-opted by those holding the registered trade mark.
There were more non-Jews than Jews killed in the camps.
Yes, Jews constituted the largest single group of victims in the 6 million dead.
FrontLine on PBS recently rebroadcast a film made during the liberation of the camps (the most disturbing footage I have seen in my 50 years). The script was written by Alfred Hitchcock. In the film the narrator lists the nationalities of the victims – every country you can think of, including Canada, was mentioned. Jews made up less than 3 million of the total 6 million dead.
Yet today we hear of the 6 million ‘Jews’ who died.
Pattern … ?
Are you advocating for limiting speech?
Bravo!
So, will this ‘disarming’ come from more defaming prophet caricatures, in an effort to entice these extremists into committing another atrocity? Or, maybe a few more ‘laser-guided’ missiles directed at funeral processions, to help in this endeavor?
A We Must Disarm Them With Free Speech Production
“I wish he (george w. bush) would stand in front of the American people and say, `My fellow Americans, we have a long and hard road ahead of us in Iraq, but we have to stay in Iraq. We have to finish the job..” -joseph robinette biden jr [vp]
An Effect & Cause Production
So, will this ‘disarming’ come from more defaming prophet caricatures, in an effort to entice these extremists into committing another atrocity? – suave
It will come from open and honest debate: “They don’t want us to debate. We must debate.”
A Words Don’t Kill People – People Kill People Production™
With a prerequisite that they must be ‘disarmed’. Not only is this some irrational pipe dream, who are we to demand this in the first place? Note the similarities w/ respect to Iran and are willingness to ‘debate’ them as long as they give-up their nuclear program as ‘the’ condition of said debate. We’ve been currently ‘shocking & awing’ them since bush l, and we want ‘them’ to relinquish their weaponry? This makes no sense. (imho)
A Debate You On My Terms Production
“This crusade, this war on terrorism is going to take a while.” -w.
A Dreaming About The Pipe Production
note: above production not to be misconstrued as a swinging-sausage vision. #thedongerneedpuddytat
“Not that there’s anything wrong with that..” -seinfreud
https://youtu.be/Oj3VphK9AMk
`sill-e-p #thedongerneedjudiciousness #thedongerneedmoregator
`u-auve #SillyLikesHisNads #WorzelNeedsBreathlessTerms
@NSA_PAO/GOV #AskMona
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kyos-M48B8U
A Some say it was for one fucking reason while others say it was for some other fucking reason Production?
Does the rape charge still stand?
Prince Buttercup?.. Inconceivable!!
https://youtu.be/D58LpHBnvsI
A Princess Buttercup Actually Sports A Banana Hammock Production
“Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?.. Morons.” -vizzini
#WorzelNeedsSillyBreathlessTerminology #TellPutty
H/T Cindy 2.3 ” A. J. Ayer was 24 years ‘old’…………………” (link required)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16u97pl4TOI
A `Suave wants Silly’s Guts for Garters: Dream on. Production™
“Defaming” prophets and gods, mon dieu! Why, you’d think we’d had an Enlightenment in which mocking religion was now allowed, and even central to a Western tradition of free thought!
`mona..
Just because you’re ‘allowed’ to do something, doesn’t make it right to do so. The Michigan government is currently ‘allowed’ to ban same-sex marriages (.. and civil-unions, if I’m not mistaken)..
A Principles We Don’t Need No Stinking Principles Production
ht` el tres amigos
“Al Jazeera America, Its Newsroom in Turmoil, Is Now the News”
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/06/business/media/al-jazeera-network-in-turmoil-is-now-the-news.html
For me, the question was, Why isn’t Al Jazeera English good enough for America? Why do they need their own bubble universe of news? Al Jazeera English covers the entire world, in ….English, the language of most Americans. Why create another English language organization? Doesn’t America have enough navel-gazing with CNN/FOX/MSNBC?
Most news stations are delivered via cable. If you buy basic cable, you automatically get Fox, for example. Many cable providers just did not make Al Jazeera available on their service. And Al Jazeera could not convince them to do so. But your point re navel-gazing is correct. The U.S. is just not interested in what goes on in the world at large. Which makes it easy to bomb places the average American has never heard of, much less being able to find on the map.
Why does CNN have “CNN” and “CNN International”, both in English? Same reason, I bet.
It should’ve been easy to foresee that most Americans would run away from AJA, for fear of alternative perspectives, or of being associated with Muslims, or other irrational reasons like that. The only hope AJA had was to appeal to those who are politically aware and tired of the establishment media. But it sounds like it never tried to do that, and now it’s too late.
JE SUIS….in favour of anything that can be used as a pretext for mass spying!!!
“France passes new surveillance law in wake of Charlie Hebdo attack
Controversial new bill that allows intelligence agencies to tap phones and emails without judicial permission sparks protests from civil liberties groups”
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/05/france-passes-new-surveillance-law-in-wake-of-charlie-hebdo-attack
“place cameras in private homes”, “keylogger devices”, “metadata”….in other words making legal for the French, what the NSA were doing already.
“The new law will allow authorities to spy on the digital and mobile phone communications of anyone linked to a “terrorist” inquiry without prior authorisation from a judge. It forces internet service providers and phone companies to give up data upon request.
Intelligence services will have the right to place cameras and recording devices in private homes and install so-called keylogger devices that record every key stroke on a targeted computer in real time. The authorities will be able to keep recordings for a month and metadata for five years.
One of the most contentious elements of the bill is that it allows intelligence services to vacuum up metadata, which would then be subject to analysis for potentially suspicious behaviour. The metadata would be anonymous, but intelligence agents could follow up with a request to an independent panel for deeper surveillance that could yield the identity of users.”
“.. and now for the Newspeak”
[snip]
One of the immediate questions that arises is whether the TV can turn its camera on its owner and open a gateway for home surveillance. The researchers say that a hacker could potentially take control of the TV’s camera and remain undetected.
“They could actually either see live, streaming video into your home or office or to take still camera shots of you,” Grattafiori said about potential hackers. “There’s no physical indicator, nor visual indicator, that you’d be able to know your camera was on or taking pictures of you.”
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/can-your-smart-tv-watch-you/
An Orwellian Production
1. extremists initially enter wrong building prior to assault
2. identification papers of one extremist are found in commandeered getaway vehicle
A How Does One Pronounce Patsy In French Speak Production
Utter, rubbish. This ‘enabling’ perspective excuses the transgressions based on ignorance. If one doesn’t know the difference between love vs maim by the time they are 17, then one is ‘devoid of all humanitarian reason/empathy’ (imho). I take it that if this mentality led to you ‘finding your child in an Ice-Cream freezer’, that you’d be able to excuse this maliciousness based on this reasoning??
A One To Many Twinkies Defense Production
#thedongerneedjudiciousness (ht` sill-e-p)
I agree that it’s not helpful to give the individual perpetrators a pass, and I bet AtheistInChief wouldn’t be so understanding and empathetic with, say, Nazi soldiers or ISIS fighters. That said, reality is that in any population there are sociopaths — maybe 3% of the population or so, and I bet in the military and police that percentage is considerably higher. That’s just the way it is. The evil that deserves most attention is the systemic evil that creates the conditions and allows things like this to occur in practical secrecy and with complete impunity.
`jose..
Concur.
Unequivocally concur.
Flat-out concur.
No if ands or buts, concur.
Absofuk`nlutely concur!
An And Your Point Was Production
I’m relieved to see that Glenn has tweeted that while he still opposes the PEN award, he doesn’t think Charlie Hebdo is racist:
In the face of such destruction to the Palestinians, it’s easy to overlook the tragedy of this for so many Israeli’s. Sometimes I think the IDF might indeed be the most moral army in the world, for groups like Breaking the Silence to exist in the face of the rabid and rampant propaganda. The story of an old mans life ending under a pile of rubble as his city is destroyed around him is vividly tragic, but one would hope he at least died knowing he had been a good person. For the soldiers who testify to being a part of such evil savagery, and who have to accept that most of those around them are wrong, and that they themselves have been wrong and done terrible things must be devastating. I am not sure of the source any more and I’m not 100% sure how factual this is, but I recall reading a few times that the IDF has the one of the highest suicide rates in armies around the world, and that their number of suicides each year often exceeds the number of deaths in combat. Israel has had far too much leniency for far too long, but if we expect the Israeli’s to end their genocide we should still be lenient in our judgement of the Israeli citizens and soldiers and acknowledge that while what they have done is indisputably wrong, it is human and something any of us could just as easily fall prey to if we had been raised almost entirely on the propaganda of militant politicians.
The tragedy of Israel is that it seriously thinks it is “the only democracy in the Middle East”, that it is “a light onto the nations”, that it’s residents think they are “the chosen people”, that they believe “God gave them the land”, and etc, etc. They believe the IOF is the “most moral army in the world”. The percentage that thinks otherwise is very small indeed. There is no introspection. Those people live in never-never land.
The decent thing for any member of the “most moral army in the world” is to commit suicide. Good riddance.
The tragedy of Israel is indeed that a majority of the population believe the governments insane and evil lies, but we have all been convinced of going along with some pretty horrific behaviour based on what our governments tell us is ok as well. To be led by propaganda into carrying out the heinous crimes the IDF commits must one of the most complete personal destructions a person can experience, or at least for the many Israeli soldiers who have the courage and decency to realise that what they’re doing is wrong. I think it’s rather arrogant to assume you’d be any different if you had been raised in the environment they have been. Do you know the social experiment, the Third Wave?
This article missed its mark. It’s not that you can’t make a case against Israelis, only that you didn’t. The only video you provide is one of four boys hit while scavenging metal from a Hamas-held site that could (dubiously) be counted as a military target. The rest of the evidence is “Breaking The Silence claims”. I recall seeing more persuasive video on this point by searching YouTube for “buffer zone” and Palestinians or something; there’s a left-wing Israeli group that collects some of that footage, though, I didn’t find literal video of civilians shot solely for being in the buffer zone, though it is frequently described. It’s hard, but there has to be a smoking gun somewhere, some way to corroborate the pretty well-known policy of shooting civilians for being where they’re not supposed to be (i.e. their homes and fields) and everyone hopes the superior journalist will find it.
As some sage once said, it is possible to argue any proposition if you make up your own definitions of words.
“…We decreed to the Children of Israel that if anyone kills a person– – unless in retribution for murder or spreading corruption in the land– – it is as if he kills all mankind, while if any saves a life it is as if he saves the lives of all mankind. Our messengers came to them with clear signs, but many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.”
Qur’an 5:32
Hmmm, “Single citation of Holy Scripture is of course most often harmless. However, it becomes dangerous when it makes claims to explain the religion to which it refers.”
“The central theme of this specific section is about gruesome revenge and hostility, showing little mercy. Unquestioned, it paints a dark picture of what is otherwise called the Holy Qur’an. The Qur’an shares this fate of single citation with its sister religions, Judaism and Christianity. Often, in a wide variety of circumstances, we see the Bible and the Tanakh being cited verse-by-verse – both by religious people themselves and people outside the religions. Single citation of Holy Scripture is of course most often harmless. However, it becomes dangerous when it makes claims to explain the religion to which it refers.”
http://www.juancole.com/2014/11/really-violent-whole.html
The verse I quoted is summing up an argument presented in its preceding verses.
The point is that the discussion of what a Holocaust and a Genocide is, is fine, but let’s not forget that the murder of a single innocent is akin to the murder of all humanity because we’re part of the same reality.
The verse has universal import as it sets a principle that transcends religious and non-religious and cultural boundaries.
Sufi, you operate on a much higher spiritual and philosophical plane than I do, and I say that with sincerity and respect. But in my simple, literal world, killing one person really is not the same as killing a whole shitload of people, and if you don’t believe me, ask the people comprising the shitload.
@Gator90
Point well taken.
Nevertheless, the Qur’an is encouraging humanity to rise in their level of consciousness and experience internally that the innocent killing of even a single person is akin to killing all of humanity, and saving one innocent person’s life is akin to saving the entire humanity, regardless of their religious or non-religious affiliation, for we are all part of the same reality.
P.S. As children, we used to read the horrors of what the Nazis did to our Jewish cousins and feel extremely sympathetic and loving towards them.
I think it’s an interesting debate, at least. And I understand the emotional dimension. And I’m sympathetic.
On the one hand, the “Holocaust” is a singular event. It had its particularities. On the other hand the Gaza carnage also has its particularities.
On the one hand the “Holocaust” is an awful event that stands alone in history. On the other hand, it is common to use words such as “Holocaust” as shorthand. For example, there was only one “My Lai”. But on the other hand, there are many “My Lais”.
I think the Holocaust should not be diminished through abuse of the word. But at the same time, Saying another event is a holocaust, brings the memory of the Holocaust back into our thoughts, where we can use it to inform our current decision making.
I don’t think it productive to try to rank genocides, but I don’t think that is what the argument is necessarily about. It is about using the history of the Holocaust, fighting over who has the right to use it. Many Zionists for example want the exclusive right to claim victim-hood, to use victim-hood, or their tenuous connection to victim-hood, decades ago, in Europe, to displace, starve, imprison, massacre, their neighbours in Palestine.
But I don’t think you are arguing with any of this are you Gator? You just don’t want the impact of the word “Holocaust” diminished. I understand that. Before I learned in school what Israel has been up to these last decades, I was already a consumer of stories of the plucky heroic Israelis, and in popular WWII war films, the moral outrage in the West over the treatment of the Jews fuelled the West’s war effort. Of course, I learned later, that America and its allies were no strangers to anti-Semitism, Saving the Jews was not the cause of the war. You could ask the Jewish refugees that were turned away from the West, if they were alive now.
So, now, I find it highly ironic, that instead of being used as a tool to prevent future events, which you can describe, or not describe as “holocausts”, the Holocaust is used by some, as a tool to commit further mass killings.
There’re key words that are exclusively used for the Children of Israel. An example that is not usually given here is the term, Anti Semitism, which is not used for the Arabs even though they’re also a Semitic people, and many Jews are not Semitic — they are European.
Am I right, or am I missing something?
it is possible to argue any proposition if you make up your own definitions of words – Gator90
CraigSummers mantra. A Labels And Pigeonholes For Everyone Production™
What a bunch of Allahu Snackbar Shit. Propaganda, and only the Arab land thieves believe it
nah…it’s the truth….and only the Zionists will attempt to discredit it….
Wow, so many things to think about with all these posts.
I guess what makes me most sad is that since learning about Nakba in 1948, and that was the same year for Israel’s statehood birth——–how awful that for all those years, the Palestinians have had 1 long holocaust.
Mr. Gator, I think you should let go of that word, because if you want to get technical, then hololcaust means—– burining—–and I guess the only 2 of those have been Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Still, reading about the Israeli soldiers made me cry. Everyone in juniot high reads the Diary of Anne Frank, and all the kids wondered—–how could people be so evil , because everyone reading that diary was the age of Anne Frank. But since learning of how long ago the Palestinians first suffrered and still are, I wondered why people can’t see that all the Palestinans kids are Anne Franks too——why are they so forgotten?
The next worst thing about the soldiers was reading about the glass, all the broken glass——–wow like one krystallnacht wasn’t enough–the Israeli soldiers had to be the nazis this time around.
Actually, maybe we should just stop using the word nazis, as if they were some creatures from an alien world……. because so very sadly, Israel is beings nazis and Amerrica is and England is, and France is and Saudi Arabia is———every nation in every war becomes the nazis, so maybe we should just stop using the word, because it’s meaningless now.
Maybe if the world gave each and every other nation the right and the respect to exist, maybe the world would be a much kinder place, but Israel, you are so sad in acting as if no one has suffered except your nation. Weirdly, most of the Jewish people that really did suffer in that holocaust are long dead, and even more weirdly, the 2nd and 3ed generation after them seems to have forgotten what they were never supposed to forget.
Indeed. Long after her death, Arendt’s insistence to the contrary continues to freak people out, on many a level.
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v29/n01/corey-robin/dragon-slayers
apropos of nothing, but the FBI’s file on Arendt was adorable. After describing her teachings as ‘totalitarian’, the scouting report says:
https://muckrock.s3.amazonaws.com/foia_files/1246152-0_-_105-HQ-47336_-_Section_1_Serial__1.PDF
the banality of puppy love
Editorial note: the military rank “sergeant” is spelled with an “e,” not an “a” as in Sargent. The correct spelling is sergeant.
agreed! please Sargent -> Sergeant . Failing to do so makes your quality-control look bad.
Tommy Boy..
Currently, we have numerous individuals who are languishing in cages, sans any ‘habeas corpus’ rights. Fuk`off with your pathetic ‘quality-control’ issues..
Aloha`
Last month, in this space I posted excerpts from a rancid, racist, anti-Palestinian screed posted in the Times of Israel under the byline of one Josh Bornstein. According to “his” ToI blog, he was a Jewish, Australian labor lawyer — who apparently is deeply religious and finds Torah and rabbinical support for hating on and killing Palestinians, taking all the world’s land for Jews & etc.
Fortunately, I follow Daniel Sieradski on Twitter, whom Bornstein credits today in The Guardian with getting to the bottom of this “hoax.” Sieradski convinced me early I had fallen for a vicious prank and I apologized here immediately and effusively. Some others who should apologize have not.
Bornstein is a progressive and atheist, and not racist. He was set up by some U.S. white supremacists who did a quite thorough job of it.
Anyway, here is Bornstein on what it’s like to be the object of 36 hours of intense social media hate: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/05/identity-stolen-white-supremacists-times-of-israel
Do not moderate my comments. You do not have to publish but I want no credit for a moderation of yours. Either publish it or don’t but do not change it.
I fear there was a clog. I double posted as well. Happens from time to time. Rarely instant, posts usually held for 3 mins approx before appearing (for me)
The antidote:
Equal measures of coram nobis, Clor-trimiTRONIC©, and Beintoe; folllowed by just a touch of Mona, Pedinska, and Sufi Muslim (potentially, a rhetorically lethal combination). Shake well (or dance a jig for a bit) and apply as needed.
In dire situations, a judicious use of Rico suave has been known to help. Use at your own risk.
*Note: Under no circumstance include IfBySillyputty™ in the above concoction, as serious and irreversible blockages and hobby-horse crapflooding may result.
I have a left wing Tron Bike waiting for you on the fringe. It’s RED
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kn4SUk6p1fg
‘After all, K. lived in a state governed by law, there was universal peace, all statutes were in force; who dared assault him in his own lodgings?’
~ The Trial Kafka
IfByAuntSally™ h/t Cindy / Silly
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-q3sP1ZyYHw&feature=youtu.be&list=PL68844E987A2B532B&t=23
‘He realized at once that he shouldn’t have spoken aloud, and that by doing so he had, in a sense, acknowledged the stranger’s right to oversee his actions’ ~ Kafka, The Trial
Touche`, Princess Buttercup…Or in #dongspeak, “As You Wish”..
Now as long as you don’t condone the nuking of Japan, I won’t have to get all “Medieval on that arse..” of yours!!
ps – We’re getting closer to my ‘Duck City’ dinner offer.. ‘Ground control to major moderators..?!’
https://youtu.be/O6qpa-mRLnI
An I Am Farm Boy Production
54 good buddie
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWX34ShfcsE
Base station: Bzzzzzzt Sputter
Mr `X: Come in Sally
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkytV1w5IeI
Double Vid Production™
61 Spider H/T Even Steven
TangoDown
I have responded to the required fields.
Why will you not publish my post?
Obviously you do not publish opposing points of view. So you have answered my last question about an agenda other than the truth
bullshyte.
Funny how in that article I read nothing about what preceded this “brutality”. Nothing was mentioned about the brutality of the enemy. Nothing was mentioned about suicide bombers that may or may not be “walking around”. Nothing was mentioned about cease fire after cease fire that was broken by the enemy. Nothing was mentioned about the refusal of the enemy to allow Israel to exist. Nothing was mentioned about the Israelis treating injured enemies. Nothing was mentioned about the inhuman behavior of the enemy. All I read was how brutal Israelis are. This article could not possibly have an agenda other than the truth, could it.
The ‘article’ is 3 paragraphs long.
Think of it as reporting, mix it with the other stuff you read and make your own mind up (which you are exhibiting strong signs of having done already)
That you have gotten 5 from 2+2 might be an agenda issue all of your very own.
suicide bombers“walking around”suicide bombers“brutality”suicide bombers“walking around”suicide bombers“brutality”suicide bombers“walking around”suicide bombers“brutality”suicide bombers“walking around”suicide bombers“brutality”suicide bombers“walking around”suicide bombers“brutality”suicide bombers“walking around” ~ Agenda Bender (Inhuman truth behaviour)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-5Q7yuaXjM&feature=youtu.be&t=48
It’s the O C C U P A T I O N, stupid. Read the articles to the Forth Geneva Convention, read the International Declaration of Human Rights, acquaint yourself with UN Security Council Resolution 242, ad infinitum. The Jewish State of Israel (as it wants itself to be called) is a pariah state, a 21st Century bastion of apartheid and racism.
good luck convincing the Zionists….
Oy and double oy!
They are terrorist you kill or be killed this has to be a liberal idiot repory
This is ridiculous. We know many people living in Israel, some in the military, and the Israelis have gone way out of their way to avoid civilian casualties. They were being rained on my a continuous barrage of rockets from Gaza that were all aimed for civilian areas including homes and schools and were not immediately retaliating.They dropped leaflets warning the people of where they were targeting, when they were targeting and told them to get all civilians out. Often the soldiers put themselves in harms way to protect civilians. They give free health care to Gazans despite the ongoing rockets. when there was fighting in Syria, Israel set up a hospital on the border and treated Syrian wounded for free. This week Israel set up a 200 bed hospital in Nepal and brought in equipment to find people in the rubble. They are often the first on the ground in a disaster zone. They have sent irrigation technology to areas in drought. Despite Muslim threats to push them into the sea, the Muslim people have freedom of religion, to attend schools and work in Israel, as well as representatives in the government. No one but Muslims, and only Muslim men, have those rights in a Muslim nation. The list goes on. So, I think it is outrageous that people criticize Israel when they are contributing in science, medicine, education, equal rights for citizens and humanitarian aide, plus try to force them to give up land when the whole nation is about the size of one of our smallest states, while Muslim nations fill the middle east and parts of Asia and Africa. Unbelievable.
You do live in Never Never Land!
So then by your theology the United States should give back the land they fought for and won. Efin Moron
“Whoever you see there, you kill”
These are almost the exact same words that were spoken at My Lai.
War crimes.
O/T
“How Muslim-Americans can avoid being Trolled by Israel-Firsters: Look again at the Prophet’s example”
Juan Cole has this article at http://www.juancole.com/2015/05/americans-firsters-prophets.html#comment-321283
===================
We Muslims would do well to reflect upon the Prophet’s supplication in Taif.
This is the supplication he recited with shoes full of ?blood, wounds all over his body and after having been insulted, ridiculed and abused by the people of Taif to whom he had taken recourse seeking a place of refuge.
Moreover, this occurs after three years of suffering a boycott at the hands of the pagans of Mecca as a result of which Muslims were reduced to eating grass and leaves off of trees.??
The Prophet (s) as he walks out of Taif:
??”O God! I complain to You of my weakness, my scarcity of resources and the humiliation I have been subjected to by the people.
O Most Merciful of those who are merciful.
O Lord of the weak and my Lord too.
To whom have you entrusted me?
To a distant person who receives me with hostility? Or to an enemy to whom you have granted authority over my affair?
So long as You are not angry with me, I do not care.
Your favor is of a more expansive relief to me. I seek refuge in the light of Your Face by which all darkness is dispelled and every affair of this world and the next is set right, lest Your anger or Your displeasure descend upon me. I desire Your pleasure and satisfaction until You are pleased.
There is no power and no might except by You.”
—————–
??If those who claim to love the Prophet(s) so much that they are willing to infringe upon prophetic conduct with their blind rage and fury would reflect upon this prayer, it would be a guiding light for them and a clear instruction as to how a Muslim should respond to the provocations.
That’s a difficult prayer for anybody who’s lost a family member. The idea of pleasing God is probably the farthest thing from the mind of a father who finds his child in an Ice-Cream freezer.
You are hopeless.Religion is about hope.Embrace your cold reality to your bosom.The father believed his son in a better place,a part of his faith.
“no one is supposed to be in the area in which you’ll be. Which means that anyone you do run into is a terrorist.”
Ironically, it’s the IDF who are the terrorists…
Dave your an idiot
Tommy Boy..
Dave, your mama, works here.
Dave your an idiot, needs help.
Adios`..
Who writes this drivel?
I don’t think I’ve seen such biased ignorance (or dare I say willful manipulation) in “journalism” in my whole life, and I’ve seen quite a lot.
This is, in totality, nothing more than a pile of anecdotes. It doesn’t prove that there is an evil agenda by Israel on the whole. In fact, we have no way of knowing any of it is truth. For all we know, these could be simply malicious taqiyya by Hamas operatives (or simply sympathetic to Hamas) who have infiltrated the IDF. And even if we assume that they’re all true statements, how would you feel as a soldier of a nation which is constantly bombarded with rockets from an area that doesn’t care if its own “people” are in harms way?
“Who writes this drive?l” BY GLENN GREENWALD?
One persons pile of anecdotes is another persons witness statements. I agree that they were wilfully published here.
“Even if we assume ignorance manipulation can be described in breathless terms as drivel genocide, constantly bombarding Hamas operatives for infiltrating the IDF is simply malicious taqiyya and we have no way of knowing if any of it is truth. How would you feel as a soldier in harms way? There is an evil agenda (or simply sympathy for Hamas)….this is, in totality, nothing more than a pile of manipulation.
In my whole life I’ve seen quite a lot of biased ignorance (or dare I say rockets) from an area that doesn’t care in “journalism” ~ MonsoonDrivel
Some say it was for one fucking reason while others say it was for some other fucking reason…..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9U4Ha9HQvMo
It does, for a very simple reason: impunity. Also, has the IDF denied those are actually their rules of engagement?
Please forward top PW if he has not seen this (I am blocked from emailing him)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/05/04/mondoweiss-is-a-hate-site/
From the APA dictionary: Ethics (also moral philosophy) is the branch of philosophy that involves systematizing, defending, and recommending concepts of torture.
“New details have emerged on how the American Psychological Association, the world’s largest group of psychologists, aided government-sanctioned torture under President George W. Bush. A group of dissident psychologists have just published a 60-page report alleging the APA secretly coordinated with officials from the CIA, White House and the Pentagon to change the APA ethics policy to align it with the operational needs of the CIA’s torture program. The report also reveals a behavioral science researcher working for President Bush secretly drafted language that the APA inserted into its ethics policy on interrogations.”
http://www.democracynow.org/2015/5/5/emails_show_american_psychological_association_secretly
gazan holocaust…
gazan holocaust!…
lives and homes lost…
israel closes in then fires…
overfilled with killing desire!…
the oppressor forgot its old heartbreaking woes…
how it feels being persecuted by an unyielding foe!…
now it’s similarly become what it once had condemned…
destroying innocent people and urgent necessities for them!…
I know I relaxed my prohibition on Israel/Nazi comparisons, but abject nonsense like this still annoys me. As terrible as Israel’s conduct in Gaza has been (and it has been truly and profoundly terrible), it is like the Holocaust the way a pimple on your ass is like Mount Everest. And your poetry sucks, too.
As much as you’d like to be, you’re not in a position to make any “prohibitions”. “Holocaust” is defined as a “great or complete devastation or destruction”. That would certainly pertain to Gaza. Also, I like sally’s poem; everything in it is true.
Everyone knows what “holocaust” refers to. Sally certainly does. Why are you pretending you don’t?
gazan holocaust…
gazan holocaust!…
lives and homes lost…
israel closes in then fires…
overfilled with killing desire!…
the oppressor forgot its old heartbreaking woes…
how it feels being persecuted by an unyielding foe!…
now it’s similarly become what it once had condemned…
destroying innocent people and urgent necessities for them!…
@ Gator90
Q. What’s the difference between a systematic extermination of a peoples via rounding them up into camps and killing them and a systematic program of destroying their lands, homes, herding them into camps and starving them out?
A. The time it takes to do it and the “optics”. The intent of the system and end result is exactly the same. One just takes more patience and is easier to spin as a PR/propaganda matter.
I can think of about 6 million differences, RR.
shorter Gator; The Holocaust® refers to what happened in the camps, dammit.
How dare you steal our registered trademark and let the Palestinians use it.
Never mind that more non-Jews than Jews died in the camps …
@ Gator90
So the meaningful difference is numerical eh? In other words, anything less than the number of Jews killed in the Holocaust is some sort of lesser or “different-in-kind” atrocity? Is that really how you see it?
So does that make the Armenian Genocide or the Rwandan Genocide lesser or different-in-kind atrocities? Or were enough killed, and quickly enough, for you to give them the same victims of atrocity status as the Jewish Holocaust but unlike the slow motion strangulation of the Palestinian people?
@rrheard:
Say a rocket from Gaza kills one Israeli civilian, and Israel responds with bigger rockets that kill 300 innocent Palestinians. That’s OK with you, right? The difference, after all, is only numbers.
@ Gator90
Um, no it isn’t OK with me. And it isn’t strictly a function of proportionality or absolute “numbers” of “civilians” involved. The first is a crime. Israel’s response would be “collective punishment” which is commonly understood as a war crime or crime against humanity. Both are wrong and they are different in kind, but not because of the numbers involved.
So I’m very confused by your response. My point was that the meaningful difference between Party A killing large numbers of Group B quickly and Party C killing slightly less members of Group D slowly, is not the absolute numbers but patience and the “optics”. In other words the intent is the same. Are you disputing that or sticking with the argument that “no the meaningful difference is that Party C kills less human beings in absolute numbers than Party A did so they are different in kind or intent.” Because that’s the only way I’m understanding your response.
Maybe I’m misunderstanding your response and if you are willing please clarify.
@ Gator90
And out of curiosity, when does some activity or policy agenda move from the “truly and profoundly terrible” to “holocaust” status in your estimation? Only when it hits “6 million”, but not 10,000 or 20,000 or 100,000? Is it a function of body count/per day/week/year/decades in your book, or something else? Is it a function of the characteristics, ethnicity, religion or some other trait of a human being that is determinative, if so what are those in your book?
The Nazis were explicitly eliminationist. To qualify for genocide there should be intent to kill off all or most of a people. The Nazi policies vis-a-vis the Jews qualifies as a Holocaust.
RR,
I don’t have a precise table worked out, but if you can’t grasp the significance of the distinction between a few thousand dead and a few million, I don’t know how to help you.
To assert that Israel’s “intent” toward Palestinians is the same as, or even remotely analogous to, Nazi Germany’s “intent” toward Jews is preposterous. The Nazis’ intent toward Jews was literally to exterminate them all like vermin. The day the Palestinian population (or even the population of Gaza) starts declining instead of increasing as it reliably does every year, is the day I’ll start entertaining the absurd notion of a “Palestinian Holocaust.”
Genocide does not happen in slow motion. At the very least, the death rate must outpace the birth rate. And the difference between genocide and not-genocide is, I respectfully submit, pretty huge.
Of course, none of the foregoing is meant to excuse or make light of Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians, which is horrid and reprehensible. But it can be, and is, those things without being genocide or a holocaust as those terms are commonly understood.
@Gator
I’m sympathetic to your inclination to reserve the term “holocaust” to refer to the specific event that it is normally referred to, and to find it’s use willy nilly to be offensive even. But I’d ask you to consider my position also. I’m not Jewish. So to me, the “holocaust” is not personal. It’s academic. And to be quite honest, try as I might, the only differences that I find between the Nazis the Israeli government behavior, are matters of degree only.
I’ve seen you write about your displeasure about using Nazi references when describing Israeli actions, and I understand, to the extent that I can, where you’re coming from. You take it personally, and I can understand that. But you have to understand that it’s not personal, to someone like me. Israel is a settler colonial project, and it’s behavior has nothing to do with the Jews. As Max Blumenthal has said many times, if it were a Chinese settler colonial project, the behavior would be the same. And the behavior we’re talking about is what leads young men to have so little regard for a Palestinian man that they would rather dump a pile of rubble on him with a D9, than check him for booby traps, or to even avoid paperwork maybe.
I actually don’t think that the Israeli soldiers are any more immoral than I would have been, were I in their position. I don’t really hold them in contempt. I don’t think that they know any better. Human beings exhibit mob mentality, whether it’s a young Israeli, or a young Brit, or a young German. We do things because we’re weak, too weak to stand up to what we really feel, and so we go along, and do terrible things. In almost every war that I’ve read about, whenever one side is overwhelmingly more powerful, and there is hate propaganda involved demonizing the other side, such behavior is almost inevitable, whatever the background of the solder.
As someone who doesn’t take the holocaust personally, I don’t believe, Nazism is the domain of the Germans. It’s very much a human capacity. So I don’t see how the Israelis can be exempt from Nazi-like behavior. And quite frankly, I really don’t see much of a difference, between the mental states of the Nazis and the mental states of the Israelis, other than degree. As a human being, you have to have less regard for your enemy than you would for a wounded animal, to behave towards them like the Israeli army seems to do. And that’s how I think the Germans behaved towards the Jews.
I’m not trying to offend you Gator. I’m trying to tell you, that for some people, who don’t take the holocaust personally, the difference between the holocaust and the treatment of the Palestinians do not focus on the actual numbers involved, but the nature of the behavior.
@gator
I watched the HBO movie “Conspiracy.” It was unbelievable to me how the the Nazis made bureaucratic decisions about the fate of the Jews, concerning life and death. But when I read about an Israeli minister determining the rationing of the daily calories for Palestinians, I’m at a loss to draw a distinction between the two forms of behavior that suggests that there might be any meaningful daylight between the two events, granted that one leads to a quick death, and another leads to a prolonged one.
A ‘self-hating’ Jew’s guide to answering Zionist talking points:
“If one is not able to see this conflict as one that is about colonialism and therefore not an issue of a two-sided conflict but about the resistance of people against occupation and oppression, then it is simply because one is emotionally connected to Zionist ideology.
It is sad that many Jews have not yet learned about the pitfalls of nationalism, particularly after it ravaged our people during the Holocaust. When the Nazis forced more than 400 000 Polish Jews into a tiny corner of Warsaw that became known as the Warsaw Ghetto, many residents of the ghetto began an armed resistance campaign.
Some of the Jewish survivors of this resistance, including Chavka Fulman-Raban, have denounced the occupation on a similar basis – comparing the open-air prison that Jews were forced into in Warsaw with the effective imprisonment of 1.8-million people in Gaza.
When we as Jews say “never again” to another Holocaust, it must hold for all people, not just Jews. I, for one, will never keep quiet while my people are complicit in the subjugation of anyone else, particularly when it is based on racist and nationalist ideology. It is, however, encouraging that an increasing number of Jews in Israel and worldwide are standing with the Palestinians in their struggle for justice.”
~ From link
http://mg.co.za/article/2014-07-30-a-self-hating-jews-guide-to-answering-zionist-talking-points
@Gator “even remotely analogous” Language too strong! Also alarm bells are ringing with the population decrease rule.
@ Gator90
If you honestly believe that the Israeli’s have only killed a “few thousand” Palestinians in the last 70 or so years, I’d suggest you are misinformed.
If you honestly believe that many in positions of policymaking in Israel don’t perceive Palestinians as a “problem” (rodent-like or otherwise) and that problem will be “solved” only when they are all dead or have been relocated (which is of course “eliminationist”), then I’d say you’re misinformed and we’ll have to agree to disagree.
If you honestly believe a “genocide” can only be properly described as an event where “purposeful deaths outstrip births” then all I’d say is that’s an interesting definitional debate, but not a logically or morally compelling one.
I feel bad for you and anyone who believes in the idea of Israel as a Jewish homeland. Because if Israel continues to try and solve the Palestinian “problem” they way they have in the past, this isn’t going to end well for anybody.
Counting the dead bodies of Palestinian civilians relative to any other “genocide” (or Jewish civilians killed in Israel by homemade rockets or by suicide bombers) or discussing the proper timing of what is or isn’t a “genocide” isn’t really going to wash as a matter of history either.
I guess I don’t cabin my understanding of the meaning and import of the term “genocide” the way some do. And I’m fine with that.
What about deaths in the Middle East attributable to US intervention? (I don’t mean official battleground counts only.) Close enough to a Holocaust?
Gator writes:
Agreed. The Israelis have massacred and slaughtered the Palestinians, and committed war crimes, but they are not (altho a minority of Zionists say nice thing about doing so) committing genocide.
@rrheard
I think you’re being just a tad harsh on Gator. I can understand his reluctance to equate Nazi actions in any way shape or form to actions of those of any other. I can understand and am even sympathetic to the position of keeping the idea of the holocaust as a unique event. I remember the difficulty my Atheist/Muslim father had when I asked him as a 12 year old, while watching “The Winds of War” why the lady in the show was trying to hide the fact that she was Jewish (setting was pre US involvement Germany). He himself tried to pass it off on me as a “unique event,” something not understandable (he always told me it was a “unique” human event. I think he just didn’t want to get into it with me). Were I Jewish, I can see how that inclination would be even stronger.
I’m also sympathetic to your position, where you have little patience for such nuance, in the face of ongoing Palestinian suffering. But I think, in order to win the battle of the minds, we must have patience for the likes of Gator. His current positions are counter to his former positions. Most of us don’t have the ability to change our minds, and he has done more than that. In many ways, I find him almost overly critical of Israel sometimes.
He might have certain soft spots, like we all do, and in those instances I think it makes for better discourse to be gentle, than to be dismissive of his positions.
@Jose
There is a difference between US actions in the Middle East, and the animus of the average American towards Muslims or Middle Easterners. I was in College in the US during 9/11, and I can tell you my personal experience. Right after 9/11, I became aware for the first time, that I was, in fact, a Muslim. But at that time, everybody I knew asked me a thousand times if I was doing okay, if anybody had done or said anything untoward, to me, since I was a Muslim.
I remember that time, and my respect for Americans grew immensely during that time, just watching how protective my friends were of me. And it wasn’t even necessary.
The games the US govt plays abroad, I don’t think has much to do with the political wishes of the American public. But the behavior of the Israeli govt, I think reflects the wishes of the population, at least, that’s how it appears to me. That’s the distinction I would draw between Israeli behavior, and American behavior. But the death of a child is probably a holocaust to a parent, whether Iraqi or Palestinian, or Yemeni.
I found this article a good read on the subject of: to genocide or not to genocide
http://www.vice.com/read/israels-war-on-gaza-is-it-genocide-813
“Amnesty International spokesperson Natalie Butz said that the language her group typically employs is “war crimes and crimes against humanity,” which she said both sides in the conflict have committed (though with a wildly varying degree of success). She said that “we want the situation referred to the International Criminal Court, which is the international institution with jurisdiction over war crimes, crimes against humanity, and genocide,” but did not respond when asked why Amnesty doesn’t refer to Israel’s actions as “genocidal.” Human Rights Watch was also reluctant to explain its linguistic decisions. Their press office would only say that the group “condemns Israel for committing war crimes in Gaza but does not refer to its actions as genocide,” [Snippy]
“It’s important to remember that you don’t need millions of dead bodies and a Nazi industrial system of extermination to constitute genocide under the relevant convention,” writes Sam Husseini of the Institute for Public Accuracy, a Washington-based media watchdog. The Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide defines “genocide” as inflicting on a group “conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part.” As the very title of the treaty suggests, a genocide need not be anywhere near completed—the destruction need not be “in whole”—for genocidal behaviour to merit the label. What matters is the motivation, not the body count.” [Snip]
“Defenders of Israel will say that’s because it’s the wrong word to use. Writing in the Jewish Daily Forward, New York attorney Inna Vernikov goes with Merriam-Webster in defining genocide as “the deliberate killing of people who belong to a particular racial, political, or cultural group.” That’s inappropriate with respect to Gaza, she argues, because Israel isn’t to blame for the killing—the Palestinians are” [Snip]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pno78oHVr0k&list=RDpno78oHVr0k
I found this article interesting on: to genocide or not to genocide…
http://www.vice.com/read/israels-war-on-gaza-is-it-genocide-813
“Amnesty International spokesperson Natalie Butz said that the language her group typically employs is “war crimes and crimes against humanity,” which she said both sides in the conflict have committed (though with a wildly varying degree of success). She said that “we want the situation referred to the International Criminal Court, which is the international institution with jurisdiction over war crimes, crimes against humanity, and genocide,” but did not respond when asked why Amnesty doesn’t refer to Israel’s actions as “genocidal.” Human Rights Watch was also reluctant to explain its linguistic decisions. Their press office would only say that the group “condemns Israel for committing war crimes in Gaza but does not refer to its actions as genocide,” [Snip]
“It’s important to remember that you don’t need millions of dead bodies and a Nazi industrial system of extermination to constitute genocide under the relevant convention,” writes Sam Husseini of the Institute for Public Accuracy, a Washington-based media watchdog. The Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide defines “genocide” as inflicting on a group “conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part.” As the very title of the treaty suggests, a genocide need not be anywhere near completed—the destruction need not be “in whole”—for genocidal behaviour to merit the label. What matters is the motivation, not the body count.” [Snippy]
“Defenders of Israel will say that’s because it’s the wrong word to use. Writing in the Jewish Daily Forward, New York attorney Inna Vernikov goes with Merriam-Webster in defining genocide as “the deliberate killing of people who belong to a particular racial, political, or cultural group.” That’s inappropriate with respect to Gaza, she argues, because Israel isn’t to blame for the killing—the Palestinians are. Absolutely, the “people of Gaza are under siege and are being denied basic rights to freedom, movement, education, and life,” but Vernikov argues that it’s their own fault: “Those rights are denied them by their own government, which they selected for themselves.” [Snip]
Since you like numbers, consider the Holodomor, the man-made famine created by the Soviet Union in Ukraine in 1933, which it is estimated to have claimed around eight million lives.
The legal meaning of genocide includes nonlethal acts that in the end eliminate or greatly reduce the group.
@ AtheistInChief
I’m not trying to be dismissive of Gator90’s desire or perception to believe that the term “holocaust” has a “unique” meaning to today’s earthly inhabitants. He can have it and I concede that the term is most commonly understood as referencing the historical Jewish genocide attempted by the Nazis.
But it is also entirely irrelevant to my point and I don’t think I ever debated it–I consistently used the terms “atrocity” and “genocide” or Jewish “holocaust”.
My point was about “genocide” generally–whether slow or fast, whether industrially scaled and perpetrated or whether through slow motion starvation–it can still an intended genocide in my opinion.
When we quibble about what specific label X group gets to hold dear or claim definitive ownership of, we miss the forest for the trees. Israeli’s and Jews, like Armenians, and Irish and Russians and Tutsis and Indigenous Americans and millions of other people all over the globe have experienced genocide or something approaching it. They should be the ones that know only too well that the label other’s attach to it is irrelevant.
It’s the intent and consequences of one group of human beings trying to eliminate another group from its lands or separating them from their lives–en masse–that matters.
The means, the pace, the birth to death rate and the relative body count are irrelevant to me. As they should be to any thinking or moral person. When you start trying to describe it that way, all you do is provide the space for people to draw irrelevant moral distinctions and justifications that simply don’t have any foundation or coherence in logic or morality. It is a distraction and a debate without a point or relevance.
That’s my point.
Sorry for all the typo misuses of apostrophe in that last one–typing way too fast and not taking the time to edit. Sorry.
three millions of those were Jews…the rest were other people….
Wow, Gator. You should get that mountain-sized pimple lanced. Carefully done, there’d be little risk. At least as far as your comments go, I mean. You’d still be able to drop some stupid shit any old time.
a holocaust anywhere is a holocaust…
can’t toss it aside by flipping thoughts…
opinions won’t change the days or events…
that a holocaust then and there presents!…
Oh, Israel has learned lessons from the demolition of Gaza!!!
“As part of lessons learned during Operation Protective Edge last summer and the growing need for advanced armored personnel carriers, Israel has signed a 310 million dollar contract with General Dynamics for the production of additional Namer APCs.
The platforms will come with Rafael’s Trophy active protection system on board, offering defenses against shoulder-held missile and mortar attacks, common in combat in Gaza and southern Lebanon.
A Defense Ministry delegation in the US signed an agreement with General Dynamics for the purchases of frames and systems to manufacture additional Namer vehicles, the ministry announced on Tuesday.”
http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Defense-Ministry-increases-production-of-Namer-APCs-402122
Seems to me the old tanks did a pretty good job:
“NOT one of the 19,000 homes in Gaza destroyed during last summer’s war with Israel has been rebuilt. Six months after would-be donors pledged to raise $3.5 billion, the situation is bleak. Barely a quarter of the promised cash has arrived (see chart). Around 100,000 of Gaza’s 1.8m people remain homeless after families spent a rainy winter in tents, trailers and amid the rubble.
The main reason is that Israel’s government lets Gazans import only a fraction of the cement they need, arguing that it can be used for military purposes—and for building tunnels. * Israel blames Palestinian infighting for preventing implementation of a mechanism to import building materials under the control of the Palestinian Authority, which administers parts of the West Bank. European, Arab and UN officials agree the bickering has delayed reconstruction. So what little Gazans get is on the black market. “It’s like cement is a radioactive material,” says Naji Yusuf Sarhan, Gaza’s deputy minister of housing.”
http://www.economist.com/news/middle-east-and-africa/21649498-nine-months-after-latest-war-recovery-distant-prospect-bleak-ever
`jl..
Another reason might be to make sure that there is an ample supply for the Israeli governments current/future construction of/on the Palestinian’s OCCUPIED land(s)!!
https://occpalgaza.wordpress.com/2015/04/07/israeli-occupation-marathon-will-shut-down-palestinian-highway-and-ends-in-an-illegal-settlement-how-fitting/
A Mr Yahu Tear Down This Wall Production
Up here? BAD Worzel!
If the motive for murder is more than just avenging cartoon speech does that effect your position. see: Bonkers/religious fanatic
Because in ‘breathless terms’ Violent Lethal Moral Harm has yet to be trade marked.
Liking this particular production the most as I feel an anti $$$$De-facto apartheid $$$$ vibe coming from the ‘old’ donger
(of the not 25 so don’t bit me either ilk).
The stone wall has been toned down #TellPutty
A just for you Mr `suaver `suaver
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrI0kTGuVA4&list=RDrrI0kTGuVA4
My Take: If we use the word sympathise (as you would of a resistance group i.e IRA) it makes more sense.
In my case I sympathise with CH. I think allot of what they published was funny but also repugnant and often simultaneously so.
A nice on topic Irish song for CraigSummers
Joe McDonnell – Wolfe Tones
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4x_PxdYEk8
Or put like this: If it was a democracy where smiles were a yes vote and tears were a no vote… CH probably caused allot more smiles than tears from the people that saw it in literal (breathless) terms and therefor are the moral winners.
This logic was brought to you by Sin Speech™ & Guts4Garters™
#dongerneedsmoraljustice
P.S before you ‘Cry’ Freedom $$$$ De-Facto Harm $$$$ is not my specialist subject.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfWlot6h_JM
Kool..
No.
Kool Moe `Maz..
Or to put it this wayz:
What I am conflicted by, is the theme that ‘the artists were murdered’ because the extremists ‘hate us for our free speech’, and not the fact that they actually take offense to the defamation of their prophet. My other confliction is that one is allowed to excuse this defamation based on a ‘satire’ excuse, when the party drawing the renderings know ‘full well’ that what they are publicizing, demeans the religion’s populous..
To myself, that’s indubitably ‘kooky’!!!!
https://youtu.be/btpd8zg5VWA
A Sid And Marty Krofft Production
Kool Moe..
I’m ‘sympathetic’ to the individuals who were massacred for their caricatures, as well as sympathetic for the individuals (not extremists) who are offended by said caricatures.
Hmmm, “When four million people come together to say that caricaturing the religion of others is an absolute right — and even a duty! — and when these others are the weakest members of society, one is perfectly free to say that we’re fine, we’re in the right, that this is a great country. But that is not the case.”
“The debate is emotional and complex. But the battle lines are generally drawn between those who believe that PEN’s core mission includes celebrating Charlie Hebdo’s courageous perseverance after the Jan. 7 attack on its office by Muslim extremists that left 12 people dead and those who believe that the magazine’s cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad promote bigotry and reinforce the second-class status of a Muslim underclass in France.
…In an interview about his new book, “Who Is Charlie?,” to be released in France on Thursday, the center-left historian and demographer Emmanuel Todd described the Jan. 11 demonstrations that brought millions to the streets of Paris and other French cities in support of the magazine as “a sham.” The march, he argued, purported to unite all of France but in fact brought together an urban, historically atheist elite and a rural, Roman Catholic, traditionally anti-republican demographic, but not the Muslim underclass.
“For the first time in my life, I wasn’t proud to be French,” Mr. Todd said in a cover interview this week with the magazine L’Obs. “When four million people come together to say that caricaturing the religion of others is an absolute right — and even a duty! — and when these others are the weakest members of society, one is perfectly free to say that we’re fine, we’re in the right, that this is a great country. But that is not the case.”
The real threat to France, he said, isn’t Muslims but “this crazy new religion I call ‘radical secularism.’ ””
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/05/books/charlie-hebdo-award-at-pen-gala-sparks-more-debate.html?_r=0
I am afraid he is missing his own point. If half of that is rural Roman Catholics, then you cannot call the union of the two ‘radical secularism.’
A more articulate statement from Glenn Greenwald on why he feels that the satire of Charlie Hebdo was co-opted by the West:
You’ve written a lot about the controversy over the PEN “Freedom of Expression Courage Award” being given to Charlie Hebdo, which has inspired a lot of writers to speak out in opposition. Why do you think this story is so important? – Salon
I was cheered to see Glenn say this, my emphasis:
I’m also glad to see Glenn begin to unpack this in a more responsible manner finally. Some thoughts from the Charlie Hebdo award:
From the PEN Gala recognizing Charlie Hebdo’s freedom of expression:
As the publication’s editor, Gerard Biard, and its film critic, Jean-Baptiste Thoret, went to the stage to accept their award, though, there was no sign of the tensions preceding the event, which included a boycott by some PEN members. Biard and Thoret received a standing ovation, and Biard urged writers to work together to “disarm” enemies of free speech.
Glenn Greenwald and The PEN Protestors stated in part:
Writers attending the PEN event believe that debate on the questions raised is essential – and that stifling withholding it, as some protesters advocated with their protest, was counter-productive, and even dangerous:
Charlie Hebdo’s editor, Gerard Biard conrinued:
“But in an unequal society, equal opportunity offense does not have an equal effect.” – Glenn Greenwald and The PEN Protestors
There’s the rub: People who actually make their living writing because of and/or about the universality of free expression actually believe that the best way to attain same is to not recognize it?
If a society (let’s say it’s France for the sake of argument) feels they have marginalized citizens, then by all means do whatever needs done to protect them using the laws of the land. If any (let’s say French citizens for the sake of argument) feel they are being marginalized, then by all means they need to do whatever needs done to protect themselves using the laws of the land.
In each case, if current laws don’t adequately address the concerns, then use the existing structures to create change to make laws that do. If any particularity society doesn’t have those structures in place to affect change, then make them. It’s not easy, but history has already proved that. It’s also doable; and history has proved that as well.
Just don’t throw ideas such as the non-violent expression of satire under the bus to get there. It’s a knee-jerk reaction that will create more unintended harm than the harm that it purportedly mitigates. History has proved this, too.
great quote from Glenn….makes sense to me….that really is the narrative put forward…that the Westerners are the victims…..we hear this all the time, from our governments…esp. the Harper Government in Canada….he’s really making hay on the “fear Muslims” “divide and conquer” policies…
Could not agree more. The most memorable part of that 11 Jan march was watching Netanyahoo weaseling his way into the front line, almost next to Hollande.
No doubt most realize that Islam is not a one-hour exercise on Sunday morning. It is a way of life. To be Muslim means to be a follower of Islam. Therefore, the claim that the intent was to caricature a religion only just cannot happen. By caricaturing the religion, you are caricaturing the person. Especially fun when attacking a group that is constantly being belittled and diminished.
Re ” Islam is not a one-hour exercise on Sunday morning. It is a way of life.”
Seriously? You’re going to claim that Muslims deserve special rights because they’re more faithful than Christians? Then maybe you shouldn’t be surprised when those faithless infidel Christians don’t put any special emphasis on not offending faith. But honestly… I don’t think calisthenics are a good measure of faith. (But suicide bombings…? I’ll let somebody else tackle that one)
No one said anything about “special rights”, unless you consider the right for the women to dress as they please. Obviously, you view all Muslims as potential suicide bombers. Be happy in your obvious racism.
well put Kassandra.
gotta say that i agree with Mr. Todd’s assessment of what’s going on in France….Radical anti Muslimism….under the excuse of “secularism”….both the atheists and the rural Roman Catholics hate the Muslims, and have no problem whatever demonising them, and caricaturing them….although i might say that the danger to France is really from the Anti Muslimism, more than a particular secularism…secularism is being used as an excuse….
Good question: “What is the oppositional value of caricaturing religion in a formally secular nation, particularly if the targeted faith is that of a demonised minority who are often pilloried as enemies of the state anyway?”
“Free speech is most precious when it genuinely questions power, when dissent challenges and undermines an unacceptable status quo. Meaningful dissent makes the invisible visible. While the openly tyrannical are obvious targets, in formally democratic contexts free speech is truly only a weapon when it sets its sights upon insidious norms and received ideas rather than sanctioned enemies. Charlie Hebdo is frequently described as satire against the powerful, but power is always context-specific. What is the oppositional value of caricaturing religion in a formally secular nation, particularly if the targeted faith is that of a demonised minority who are often pilloried as enemies of the state anyway?
By contrast, it was breathtakingly brave of the Saudi blogger Raif Badawi to criticise a vicious religious-political regime. Publicly flogged and still in jail, Badawi continues to pay a heavy price. Meanwhile the governments of “free” western countries continue to parley with Saudi autocrats.
The Bahraini human rights campaigner Nabeel Rajab is back in prison, and on the day that his detention was extended the British defence secretary, Philip Hammond, secretly visited the repressive regime to which Britain wants to sell BAE aircraft. Funnily enough, formally secular and formally theocratic countries can share the same largely unquestioned faith: the “sacred hunger” of making large profits.”
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/04/texas-shootings-dallas-gun-attack-charlie-hebdo-murders-free-speech
There really are a lot of hypocrites in the West, and more seem to show up every. day. Has the U.S. Secretary of State ever brought up the case of Raif Badawi during his many trips to Saudi Arabia? Nabeel Rajab on trips to Bahrain? Probably not. But all those Secs. of State sure trotted out all the people imprisoned in Iran. Political expediency in action.
Anyway, as I have said before, CH would have had more credibility had it been published in Saudi Arabia.
Hmmm,
“Jean-Marie Le Pen has refused to attend a disciplinary meeting of the far-right National Front. The executive meeting was intended to possibly sanction the aging party founder for a series of anti-Semitic public remarks. “
http://www.dw.de/frances-jean-marie-le-pen-ignores-disciplinary-hearing-gets-suspended-by-national-front/a-18428125
Did he say something new, or is it an accumulation of yellow cards?
2004 – “Le Pen convicted of inciting racial hatred for anti-Muslim remarks
In the interview, Le Pen called on his countrymen to beware of “the day in France when we have 25 million Muslims _ not 5 million,” which is estimated to be the current population of Muslims in France. … “
It’s unfair for a report to highlighted in which the IDF has no data presented to it or any non-partisan intermediary, therefore having no chance to investigate nor to rebut the allegations. In effect they are found “guilty” without any charges!
It is not professional for a journalist to uncritically present this hearsay “evidence” as though it were fact.
wrong. this kind of whistleblowing does not require the official input of the organisation being criticised….we know what they would say anyways….and it’s bullshyte.
HISTORY REPEATS ITSELF – Isreal lived through the GHETTO’s to re crest them by boxing in GAZA and cutting off all resources…NAZI GERMANY??
The United States created its own “concentration” camp – “GITMO” out of the sight of the citizens – No Constitutional Protections against TORTURE….
> Arming Police with Military weapons – GESTAPO – immunity from prosecution(??) – – NAZI GERMANY
16 different intelligence agencies to spy on the people?? To keep them safer?? ARE YOU SAFER TODAY ??
Most of these Israeli soldiers are probably young, naïve, and brainwashed to believe that they are performing heroic acts on behalf of their country. As they mature, they’ll eventually figure out that they were participants in a state sponsored slaughter, and that the heroic actions they ‘believed’ they were performing were akin to ‘shooting fish in a barrel’.
There’s nothing heroic about using advanced weaponry on people who fight back by throwing rocks. When these young kids come out of the ‘fog of youth’, there’s going to be a lot of shame from participating in these unmanly acts.
No. Were you thinking that the events described in this article are some bad things that happened in the war? No, that was the war. No one could think they are performing heroic acts. They might think they are doing what they need to survive, I do not know. After all, many in the US think they and their children are personally threatened by terrorism first and vaccines second. There are idiots everywhere; some have US weapons and others do not. In Israel nearly everyone serves in the army, but not everyone gets to fight like that. Perhaps those in charge choose the wrong soldiers sometimes.
The planet Earth has been declared a combat zone. All civilians, please leave immediately. If you choose to stay, you will be deemed not to exist, until such time as your non-existence can be confirmed. Reading this comment constitutes your acceptance of this implied contract. However, since non-existent entities possess no legal rights, you may not contest it in any case.
Señora Camelito,
No entiendo Inglés, puede usted cortésmente traducir al español, por favor?
suave`
Estamos todos de verdad y literalmente dementes aquí.
Si, Si.. Mi amigo..
Una Producción Feliz Cinco De Gringo
gaza is full of terrorists
so is Israel….in this case however, it’s government sanctioned terrorism, carried out by the IDF.
gaza is full of terrorists
Sad reading.
At least these soldiers are ready to talk, and at some of them seem to have found their consciences, or even been uncomfortable at the time.
Do we get as much from UK, US, or any other soldiers? (unless of course they’re whiter than white and have nothing to hide).
And I get the impression that people on the other side of this conflict generally gloat about any ‘atrocities’.
Given the above, I wonder whether this report, while casting doubt on whether Israel has the most moral army in the world, may actually support the case that it has quite a few moral soldiers.
////////////Great Name Award/////////////
Chelsea Manning. Nothing more to add.
I’d like to think “moral soldiers” would have refused to take part in atrocities, or attempted to prevent them, or sought punishment for the perpetrators, as distinguished from merely feeling uncomfortable at the time or shabby after the fact.
`gatordude..
Apologies if I’m mistaken, but weren’t you the gentleman who continually took exception to `Mona’s tact w/ respect to holding the Israeli gov to account for their numerous transgressions, up until this latest massacre that was perpetrated on the caged Palestinians? And, I’d like to think that Mr. Greenwald held a moralistic viewpoint w/ respect to the Iraq war, but his quote below would beg to differ..
“I had not abandoned my trust in the Bush administration. Between the president’s performance in the wake of the 9/11 attacks, the swift removal of the Taliban in Afghanistan, and the fact that I wanted the president to succeed, because my loyalty is to my country and he was the leader of my country, I still gave the administration the benefit of the doubt. I believed then that the president was entitled to have his national security judgment deferred to, and to the extent that I was able to develop a definitive view, I accepted his judgment that American security really would be enhanced by the invasion of this sovereign country.” -glenn greenwald
A Humility Is The Solid Fundamental Of All Virtues Production
ht `confucius
Well, I never claimed to be particularly “moral.” Indeed, were my moral compass properly calibrated, I would have come around to my present views a lot sooner. With that acknowledged, I’m still not prepared to laud the “morality” of a soldier who took active part in atrocities, or who witnessed them but lifted not a finger to prevent them.
I too believe that the good bishop’s sentiment was skewed w/ respect to the “morality” of these soldiers, and concur w/ your opinion of not ‘lauding’ them, as well..
Safe Travels..
#thedongerneedmoregator
“quite a few moral soldiers”? I am not sure. Or let’s ask, how far does ‘moral’ stretch? A few who are prepared to speak, mostly anonymously. We can be thankful that Breaking the Silence exists – it takes some courage to organise and accompany the touring exhibitions, the documentation and fact-checking is extensive, and they are changing perspectives. One should be aware, however, that not all the “Breaking the Silence” members who speak as witnesses, or even perpetrators, and speak out against “Israel going too far” necessarily know Palestinians well, respect them or their right to the land or any right of return, nor are they all well-informed about real historical events. Protecting Israel’s moral standing or even Israel’s image plays a role in their work, which means, protecting themselves. Still, I imagine there must be a good many ‘recovering Zionists’ amongst them.
Wars are always brutal. Soldiers are not deployed for any charitable missions except when fighting natural calamities. People like Manning who revolt against the brutality get locked up for life, and the rest of us are silent spectators. Those four Blackwater folks got punished because they were not protected by any government agency; in fact, such brutality is the norm rather than the exception.
Neve Gordon in The London Review of Books addresses the Breaking the Silence report from Israeli soldiers:
——————————————————–
Q: When you saw this neighbourhood on your way out, what did you see?
A: When we left it was still intact. We were sent out of Beit Hanoun ahead of the ceasefire, ahead of the air force strikes.
Q: And when you went back in [after the air strikes], what did you see of that neighbourhood?
A: Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Nothing. Like the opening scene in The Pianist. There’s that famous photo that they always show on trips to Poland that shows Warsaw before the war and Warsaw after the Second World War. The photo shows the heart of Warsaw and it’s this classy European city, and then they show it at the end of the war. They show the exact same neighbourhood, only it has just one house left standing, and the rest is just ruins. That’s what it looked like.
http://www.lrb.co.uk/2015/05/04/neve-gordon/the-day-after
Those trips to Poland that every Israeli schoolchild is subjected to doesn’t always seem to have the expected result. The wrong kind of connections are being made between the Warsaw Ghetto and Israel.
ot`
‘STUCK IN YEMEN..’ -Casey L. Coombs
Freedom of the Press Foundation:
Daniel Ellsberg
Edward Snowden
John Cusack
Glenn Greenwald
John Perry Barlow
Laura Poitras
Micah Lee
Rainey Reitman
Trevor Tim
Xeni Jardin
re: Crowd Funding
Need for support. The foundation’s goal is to prioritize support for organizations and individuals who are in NEED OF FUNDING or who face obstacles to gaining support on their own.
[*snip]
“Next I turned to the U.S. government for help. From the start of the crisis, the U.S. State Department has been heavily criticized for not evacuating Americans from Yemen, even as India, Russia and other countries arranged flights and ships for their own citizens. Facing a public backlash, the State Department finally referred Americans to the International Organization of Migration, or IOM.
At first, I was hopeful. I was told there would be an IOM flight within just a couple of days — I could even bring my cat, a stray I adopted from an abandoned wood shack behind my old apartment. But then nothing happened, and as the weeks went by, the IOM personnel assigned to coordinate the evacuation flights would rotate out, meaning I’ve been speaking with a constantly changing cast of characters.
The latest IOM representative I was in contact with said they had flights on the 28, 29 and 30 of April, because Saudi Arabia had announced that it would cease bombing. Then Saudi Arabia resumed bombing on the 28, and the flights were canceled. On April 30, the U.S. State Department posted updated information for Americans in Yemen with this printed in bold:
https://freedom.press/about
* https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/05/04/stuck-yemen-personal-history/
SMOKE FILLED BOARDROOM – Season 1, Episode 1
SUIT1: Goddamnit!!
SUIT2: What is it Basil?
SUIT1: It’s that Greenwald again.
SUIT2: What’s he gone and done now?
SUIT1: Nothing. He just wrote a 5 line article, basically shouting “Hey MSM assholes, this is the news you’ve been actively ignoring, and I’m going to tell everybody.”
SUIT2: That’s all he wrote?
SUIT1: That’s all he wrote.
SUIT2: GODDAMNIT!!!
SUIT1: What’d I tell you???… One effective son of a bitch.
“Hey MSM assholes, this is the news you’ve been actively ignoring, and I’m going to tell everybody.” – AtheistInChief
That is good. I’m liking the #CoramNobusEffect™ (h/t to Mr. Chlor-TrimeTRON™)
It’s an awful lot like what Jon Stewart and John Oliver have been doing; the former for quite a few years.
Cheers form the crowd!
“It’s been arranged.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTmlYKiLBHI&feature=youtu.be&t=32
I hope Glenn is super un-busy. SplainDontStoneWall™
Maybe you are wrong on this one Silly and it’s so obvious to everyone that no one will say a bean.
A Move on Nothing to see here/Glenn is Busy (the real Glenn not Stick `Nic) production?
Stonewalling saga:
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/04/11/iranians-talked-much-sunday-morning-tv-never-heard/#comment-122833
Looking forward to more installments. My compliments.
This comes under the heading of a Punitive Expedition. You don’t usually see them much anymore, at least not officially. They were more or less banned under the “Collective Punishment” doctrine. There will probably be a big row in the UN, but the United States will veto any sanctions against Israel. The American people, Congress in particular, are immune to any kind of shaming.
“In times of war and armed conflict, collective punishment has resulted in atrocities, and is a violation of the laws of war and the Geneva Conventions. Historically, occupying powers have used collective punishment to retaliate against and deter attacks on their forces by resistance movements (e.g. destroying entire towns and villages where such attacks have occurred).”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punitive_expedition
“There will probably be a big row in the UN”
You have more optimism than I can muster, I’m afraid.
Atrocities. PLO, Hezbollah, Hamas, etc, never commit those. D’oh.
Damn!
Worked all day. Busy. Got home. Talked with my wife. Said hello and goodbye to my son, headed out the door to work with his baseball coach.
Grabbed a Corona. Squeezed a lime.
Opened Chrome.
FINALLY! Dad gets a chance to read what Glenn and TI have to say about what happened a few miles down the road in North Garland.
Instead, I get this.
Damn and damn again.
If you are looking for some interest stuff, you can go to the site below and download a PDF of some of the NSA documents that got The Intercept started. I’ve just been going over them again.
It’s deeply disturbing.
http://glenngreenwald.net/index.html
Been there done that. This is May 2015.
Since that is your proud and pompous refrain in regards to the voluminous reports about the Surveillance State spying, what the fuck difference would it make if you were to take time away from your busy lime squeezing schedule to read an article about what happened in Garland Texas? Are you trying to convince someone that you would take some action, or that you would have some significant perseverance and attention span, or that you would actually do anything at all beyond ‘grabbing a Corona and squeezing a lime’ while posting snide comments on a website that you don’t have the mental capacity to comprehend?
Yeah, cuz nobody is talking about events in Garland, Texas, but if I hear one more CNN/Fox/MSNBC talking head refer to the report from Breaking the Silence, why my head will explode!
I mean, it’s not as if as you and I, as U.S. citizens, are complicit in these Israeli war crimes.
Read more about that here: http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stat/usaid.html
So le’s discuss what happened in Garland, Texas. Pam Geller organized a purposely Islamophobic exhibition to bait Muslims, under the aegis of the First Amendment, (That only about 200 people attended, shows that Texans have more sense that people sometimes give them credit for.). Two Texans, one a convert to Islam, found the exhibit disturbing. Using Texas’ liberal gun laws, they came to visit the exhibition with their guns. They wrote letters of farewell, knowing that they were going to certain death. They barely got out of the car, got off a few shots, and were killed by the police. What good is a gun when you can’t pop it off every once in a while?
The interesting aspect of this to me is that proponents of gun rights are more and more using the First Amendment; there is a trend in the courts to discuss First Amendment free-speech precedents when evaluating Second Amendment claims. As a site called “Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership” proclaims, “Banning assault rifles can no longer be viewed exclusively as an infringement on the Second Amendment but must also be considered an attack on the First Amendment”.
So in Garland we have a clash of First Amendment rights. Geller claims protection under the First Amendment. So did the two fellows with guns. Who gets the award?
kassy..
Obviously.
My intuition tells me that the “Texas’ liberal gun laws” had fuk’all to do w/ the fact that they brought these weapons.
So basically, their intent was to massacre.*
*Note above.
Especially when it’s done in the air to celebrate the 4th of July, eh, crack-shot?? (.. emphasis on ‘crack’!!)
You do.. Congratulations!!
A 2015 Golden Turd Award Nominee Production
http://www.graphitegoddess.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/turd-award-11.jpg
harm (vb) – to injure physically, morally, or mentally
re: “.. the fact of the matter is that they ‘willfully’ published caricatures of a religion’s prophet that they ‘knew’ were viewed as blasphemous (.. in the eyes of that religion’s populous). So in reality, they ‘intended’ to mock ones religion, which in turn, was ‘harmful to specific individuals’..” -suave dong`r
Wrong. Once again, madame, your projections have no basis in reality to my sentiments on the subject at hand. Where in the context of my commentary have I stipulated this ‘censoring’ opinion? My arguments to date have been to emphasize the horrendously inadequate security (keypad entry, token bodyguard) for a publication that had previously been ‘firebombed’, and as noted above, my objection to the fact that their blasphemy/rhetoric ‘doesn’t’ harm the religions populous.
Feel free to “piss” on whatever/whomever you choose, but don’t sit there and ‘blow smoke up my arse’ by pontificating that stated urination doesn’t offend said entities because it’s, ‘based on satire’..
A Mabel Minkoff Would Leave Lord Scarman Begging For More Production
..
Note: Comment routed to top of thread because current formating ‘STILL’ sucks George Costanza’s ‘shrunken’ rooster.
Is ‘based on satire’ your words… Looks like a bit of a semantic tussle if you ask me… where that is the linch pin?
To each of the three words listed as harm (vb) there are degrees…
The first is hard to defend.
The second: to morally harm someone is ‘a kind of’ mentally harming someone really the 3rd =Phycological harm?
And
‘Moral harm is a pretty unusual idea that really only crops up in obscenity and sexual offence law, and there is very little jurisprudential material …’ ~ cursory google search for ‘moral harm’..
Types of Harm… I expect most people in Gaza for instance (on topic) suffer from this to some degree I know I would:
developmental trauma disorder (DTD)[1] or complex trauma[2] is a psychological injury that results from protracted exposure to prolonged social and/or interpersonal trauma in the context of dependence, captivity or entrapment (a situation lacking a viable escape route for the victim), which results in the lack or loss of control, helplessness, and deformations of identity and sense of self. Examples include people who have experienced chronic maltreatment, neglect or abuse in a care-giving relationship, hostages, prisoners of war, concentration camp survivors, and survivors of some religious cults…..
https://youtu.be/vLsYlXUl1Jo?t=49
;)
“Is ‘based on satire’ your words…” `zine
Negz..
re: harm – to injure morally
To myself, it ‘offends ones conviction’.. (.. but I’m just a plebeian)
https://youtu.be/PUqcG0uLuN8
A Happy Trails Production
re: harm/negz your Rap
`plebeDong:
‘a pretty unusual idea that really only crops up in obscenity and sexual offence law, and there is very little jurisprudential material’ ~ `zine’s ‘cypher’
An Ask Your lawyer/CoramN don’t Speak about this up Here! production?
If it offends your conviction that’s grand but I suppose it follows that we “ought” to also?
Back me up Cindy!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loWXMtjUZWM
sorry:follows that we ‘ought’ to be offended also/equallly..
A what does the Law State Inquiery™
Not in the 1,000,000 light-years that it would take to travel to Planet Ork and back!! (.. but being that I’m an atheist, my ‘conviction’ doesn’t mean fuk`all either) What I’ve been attempting to convey is that the caricatures offend the Muslim’s, irregardless of there professed satirical nature. It’s the ‘Law of Principle’ that needs to be addressed.. (imho)
https://youtu.be/Ct4Rl4VrMp8
A Fly Be Free Production
Splat!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1io71upt6s
Maybe if it offended ‘you’ it would be easier to ‘agree’ with you/understand you.
You would then be able to describe the offence/moral violence ‘in breathless terms’.
‘It’s against international law to eat fellow space travellers’ ~ Mork
A Loving your Productions Production
Zap! Pow! Bam!
I’m offended, but not personally.
i.e. Being offended by the way African Americans are abused, as a caucasian.
‘Empathy is in the eye of the beholder..’
https://youtu.be/P3ZdheRKzMk
A Love Man Production
PS – Appreciating your flow, `Chlo!!
‘spose I walked in to that lamppost: What a meandering flapjack cypher I weave
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slJsCbs726c
Beam me up Cindy!
And speaking of intent:
Charlie Hebdo staff explain it themselves.
And here’s how the Charlie Hebdo staff felt about the ‘Mohammad Cartoon Contest’ in Garland, Texas:
[snip]
“Are you sure that Mohammed had sexual relations with a pig’s head?”
“I’ve no way to pay a nine year old whore, man.”
-charb
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/01/08/1356317/-Charlie-Hebdo-s-cartoons-of-Mohammed-the-Muslim-Prophet#
A Silly Putty Satire Is For Kids Production
Yeah, Charb is mocking that very cheap, stupid, grossly inaccurate thing that was filmed by some criminal in California using D actors, many of whom didn’t even know what they’d been hired for. A pig’s head? That’ll work for the schmuck filming that drek is the point. (That the right would have you believe caused Benghazi.)
Thanks for that SP. I was able to put it to good use on Twitter.
@suave – From the link you provided:
Among the many tributes to Charlie Hebdo is a piece by Mark Welch at Reason:
Thanks for that SP. I was able to put it to good use on Twitter. – Mona
You’re welcome.
“We have nothing to do with these people,” Mr. Biard added. – Charlie Hebdo’s staff
So on the one hand we have the Charlie Hebdo satirists explicitly denouncing what was clearly intended to be a provocative anti-Islamic event in Texas; while on the other hand we have Glenn Greenwald and The PEN Protestors explicitly denouncing satire – satire that was if nothing else egalitarian in that it never showed any demonstrably proven intent to harm, provoke, or marginalize specific groups or individuals.
If that doesn’t epitomize cognitive dissonance on the part of the Glenn Greenwald and The Charlie Hebdo Boycotters, just what, exactly, does it epitomize?
“Satire is tragedy plus time. You give it enough time, the public, the reviewers will allow you to satirize it. Which is rather ridiculous, when you think about it.” – Lenny Bruce, The Essential Lenny Bruce: his original unexpurgated satirical routines
>”“I don’t think there is any comparison between what happened at Charlie Hebdo on Jan. 7 and this event because it was quite an anti-Islamic event. What is the common point with Charile Hebdo?”
For the most part, intentionally provocative mocking caricatures of the Prophet of Islam.
*now, if they were loving depictions Muhammad like they do Jesus with a halo around his head … that might be a different story.
‘Food for thought..’
[snip]
“Calling self-restraint self-censorship seems to me to foreclose thoughtful response by applying a pejorative label. When communities with very different sensibilities regarding religion must live together, there is potential virtue to self-restraint, which may connote many things, including respect for the other, a desire to avoid conflict on matters where rational discourse will be difficult to achieve and a commitment to avoid inflaming tensions. Discretion is a social virtue, and frankly speaking one’s mind on all occasions can be a form of misanthropy or aggression, as Molière reminds us.
Charlie Hebdo exercised political speech in its caricatures of Muhammad, and it is fair to judge political speech on grounds of utility. I have doubts about the usefulness of Charlie’s specific line of attack. If a particular form of political speech fails to advance the goals for which it is conceived, then it makes sense to turn to other modes of expression. The cartoonist Luz (Rénald Luzier), who drew Charlie Hebdo’s post-massacre cover depicting a forgiving Muhammad, has announced that he will do no more caricatures of Muhammad. Although I obviously cannot say what his motives are, he may also have concluded that such caricatures do not contribute to what the French call vivre-ensemble (others might prefer the German phrase Mitsein ), or living together amicably, or that there are simply more useful and effective ways to attack the problem of terrorism..” -arthur goldhammer
http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2015/5/pen-america-charlie-hebdo-and-the-virtue-of-self-restraint.html
ht `rr
A Heard Is The Word Production
Bah, I can’t tell whether you’re serious. In case you are, Catholics have sued Charlie Hebdo:
Read more at http://www.christianpost.com/news/holy-trinity-portrayed-in-sodomy-jesus-labeled-as-child-of-sin-charlie-hebdo-issues-that-led-to-christian-lawsuits-132514/#r3EKSJjRORcGkFii.99
@ Mona
Oops. Cultural discombobulation*, I suspect. I am confident Charlie mocks and ridicules the Holy Roman Catholic church with equal vigor.
*i meant the ubiquitous framed pictures of Jesus, which hang proudly in almost every household of greater Appalachia, deifying a man who looks remarkably Appalachian w/ long black hair and a halo around his head. Surely, you’ve seen one? I doubt Jesus of Nazareth looked anything like that … but its a sweet thought./
What a lot of us do is simply hit the last reply feature in the thread. I’d prefer not to expand this discussion “up here.”
Interesting. Does this special ‘reply’ feature also provide you with the PREVIEW function that THE // INTERCEPT has been feverishly working to implement since March of 2014?
Noted. But since your days of ‘monitoring’ have currently been put on hiatus (Politics as Usual – ht`Thor), I’m betting that my ‘Freedom of Posting’, trumps your ‘Freedom of Preference’..
A Politely Belittle The Zionists Instead Production
lmao. good reply
I was on hiatus even when I was “monitoring” at PaU. If anyone got modded there I don’t know about it, and I certainly never did it.
And really donger, advising you about my preference and declining to address your substantive arguments here is not remotely to trample on your freedom of expression.
This has been a Get a Grip Production™
`Mona Darl`n..
True on all counts.. My quip(s) were made in jest..
A Just A Little Rubbing Harry And Rubbings Racing Production
ht`cole trickle
It’s possible for speech to harm people, and you can seek redress and so forth — this is all consistent with free speech. But the standard should be whether someone’s reputation has been harmed to an extent where their livelihood is affected, and was done so through demonstrably false accusations. Speech that makes fun of mythical characters, public figures or personal beliefs should never be limited. In fact, it should be protected, and there’s a reason for that. The principle applies whether it’s Islamophobic speech, anti-Semitic speech, neo-Nazi speech or anything else.
What part of my “Feel free to ‘piss’ on whatever/whomever you choose..” quote, didn’t you comprehend?
A Ride Em In Rawhide Production
™I’ll talk to you about it.. but not here™ ~ M2.3
Sounds like a challenge and a telling off ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DophgmxXnsM
Begging For More Productions Production
`zine
Say, how come we never run riot with: © ?
What’s better?
$$$$$$$$$$ I S R A E L L O B B Y $$$$$$$$$$™
or
$$$$$$$$$$ I S R A E L L O B B Y $$$$$$$$$$©
IDF otherwise known as IOF.. Israel Lobby otherwise known as Zionist lobby?
Well, I think donger shoulda slapped a © on “Alpo Brand.” It so got appropriated.
It’s been copy-writed. :-{
This is Louise Cypher’s most credible and important comment to date:
‘it’s spelled “sergeant”’ ~ C.Nobis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aDXvjIWi90
Yeah, but the readers have always collaborated with Glenn to catch typos and other errors. It’s b/c Glenn’s stuff is MUY IMPORTANTE.
But playing grammar and spelling cop in comments, well, that can bite a person in the ass big time!
You made my point without joke/riddle..? h/t `Nic
But
“…………Glenn to catch typos and other errors. Sergeant b/c Glenn’s stuff is MUY IMPORTANTE.” ~ Mona spelled M2.3 (it’s spelled…..)
But you’re quite right to point that out however… I’m sure all writers at intercept (not commenters) would welcome correction particularly as in this case it is a repeated error.
Not to mention CN’s contribution which is marvellous anyway I might add (which I know we agree on) which was the other part of the point I didn’t actually make.
Gaza – Drone footage reveals Israel’s devastating destruction of Shuja’iyya
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MT3uuhUd9oo
I personally prefer the ones with some variation of “LOL”.
“Thank you for correcting my woefully inept grammar, I mean that’s a rookie mistake if I ever saw one. I look like an idiot.”
You’re very welcome, dear. Go and sin no more.
This is too good:
‘There’s no room for violence,’ Netanyahu says
http://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/theres-no-room-for-violence-netanyahu-says/
“Netanyahu’s violent fingerprint
The fruits of Netanyahu’s policies are now on parade; The recent wave of attacks on Arabs are directly related to the devastating impact of his tenure.
Benjamin Netanyahu’s children attacked an Arab cleaning man on the seaside promenade in Tel Aviv and caused him serious injuries. They attacked an Arab waiter in a Tel Aviv restaurant with chairs and their fists. They attacked an Arab from Upper Nazareth at the shore of Lake Kinneret because they heard him speaking…”
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-5-JeCa2Z7hbTFrVm1wYzFxX00/edit
“SAMPLES OF ISRAELI HORRIFIC BRUTALITY AND WAR CRIMINALITY IN GAZA”
“Cry me a river.” Louise Cypher 04 May 2015 at 11:50 am [Statement Not Reply]
You will always be measured by this statement for me.
Welcome To Hel™
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9U4Ha9HQvMo
A.W.O.L
CraigAtLeastHeHadABrainSummers™
‘The only problem with USA using A-bombs on Japan is that it didn’t use more of them, sooner.’ ~ Louise Cypher
It’s not looking good for you. Do your friends know you talk like this in ‘public’?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_qnibKlryg
`MAZ.. unh huh, unh huh..
https://youtu.be/LXEOESuiYcA
A Justified Ancient Liberation Zulu Production
Wow. How can she claim to be morally superior to ISIS?
You spread a special kind of cheer Chlorpromazine.
Had to watch that link a couple of times.
Definitely bookmarked.
Thanks… Sweet of you.. If By Special™ etc..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqAkq8v6LuQ
Not to be book marked or even watched for that matter (ClickBait)
All the best to you….
I think Craig is taking a break from telling us all about Well Intentioned ViolenceTM.
If Craig doesn’t show for this thread I’d wonder if he’s well.
“If Craig doesn’t show for this thread I’d wonder if he’s well.” ~ Mona
If he is well and doesn’t show what does that mean?
According to him you know each other quite well so I thought you’d be best placed to answer that…
As to Craig’s claim that you call for the murder of Jews (which I imagine you have no need to defend – as it has never happened) I do secretly wonder why you have not commented on this, throughout my incessant enquiry of (or at) Craig on this ‘allegation’/related A-S slur (even though I have yet to ask you directly about it)
Thecraig will often load up the ‘Wally Wagon’, and take the Mrs. on excursions through the PacNorWest….
To be continued (most definitely)..
https://youtu.be/jtyrDZG-eDo
An Oh No You Can’t Just Put Her On The Roof Production
If I thought anyone believed I had called for the murder of Jews I’d say something. But the accuser is CraigSummers.
Wasting my time replying to his every absurdity and insult, well, I ain’t gonna do it!
OK Mona that’s a pretty firm statement. If he comes back from holiday/chronic food poisoning I’ll certainly put it to him. He called me a ‘fucking fraud’ ….. to what he means by that I have no idea.
There are a couple of points that came up but this could be the same as the CH thing or say General Hercules making racist comments for you. Although your conversations with Craig were very interesting to read it is not alright for someone to make an accusation such as this because of it’s related Anti semitic/racist slur. 2 reasons:
1: It’s not like inferring/’calling’ Barncat is an Anti Semite as Barncat could be called Peter Rolland in real life.
2: It appeared alright for him to accuse you of it as you continued ‘serious’ dialog with him. Does that mean that others can make similar ‘serious’ false claims.
Just like the US in Vietnam:
Kill Anything That Moves, Nick Turse
Wow, 50 shades of Baltimore:
““He [Pakada] was taken into the police station, he was arrested, detained, and spent overnight in detention,” Assefa- Dawit said, noting that Pakada was due to be brought in the morning before a judge to extend his remand when the video came to light.
“You can imagine, if there were no footage, what would have happened to this soldier?” asks Assefa-Dawit. He answers his own question – Pakada would have been put in jail with a record for assaulting a police officer following him around for the rest of his life.
To further illustrate his point, Assefa-Dawit points to the country’s Ofek Juvenile Prison. While the Ethiopian community in Israel makes up under 2 percent of the population, approximately 40% of the prison’s inmates are of Ethiopian descent.”
http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Ethiopian-Israelis-ask-If-there-were-no-footage-what-would-have-happened-to-this-soldier-400986
And that is in addition to “Saharonim”, where black refugees who reach Israel, are imprisoned indefinitely in the Negev desert.
“She added that the service also made the decision to remove all of the detainees from the tent city section and place them in cell blocks, but said the decision had nothing to do with the protest. The Prisons Service does not plan to return the detainees to the tent section, she said.
Weitzman confirmed that during the strike the service has stopped allowing detainees to make phone calls, saying that hunger strikes are a violation of prison conduct and that once a prisoner carries out such actions, authorities have the right to take away their privileges.
The protest is one of several held over the past year against the Prevention of Infiltration Law (1954), which went into effect last summer and grants the state the ability to indefinitely jail people entering the country illegally.”
http://www.jpost.com/National-News/Protests-continue-at-African-migrants-detention-center-318230
And let’s not forget the Palestinians:
“Around 9,000 Palestinians remain in jail for political crimes, among them 47 Palestinian MPs and at least 1,000 people who are being held on “administrative detention”, meaning they have not been charged or put or trial nor told what crimes they are suspected of committing. The prisoner issue is deeply sensitive for the Palestinians – around one-fifth of the population has at one time been imprisoned since the occupation began in 1967.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/aug/26/israelandthepalestinians1
Thanks, Glenn. Sure paints a different picture than the one the propaganda masters of the Israeli/US regime(s) paint(s).
Just remember folks, no matter which party wins the next presidential election — the USA will wholeheartedly support Israel and the IDF. Guaranteed.
As they very well should. It is the only rational way of action.
Actually, it’s a huge mistake and against the interests of the United States.
“Louise” – its actually quite irrational to allow a foreign nation via onshore donations to dictate our foreign policy to us and suck us into wars and conflicts half a world away. The 9/11 terrorists attacked is because we are seen as aggressors. Israel doesnt care about us, isnt our friend, and will set us up for more blowback if they believe it keeps their creepy little apartheid state supreme.
Guardian article on the Breaking the Silence report, similar material but an interesting reference to int’l law expert Philippe Sands QC:
Phillipe Sands, professor of law at University College London and a specialist in international humanitarian law, described the testimonies as “troubling insights into intention and method”.
.
“Maybe it will be said that they are partial and selective, but surely they cannot be ignored or brushed aside, coming as they do from individuals with first-hand experience: the rule of law requires proper investigation and inquiry.”
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/04/israeli-soldiers-cast-doubt-on-legality-of-gaza-military-operation
Given Mr Sands’ background and authority in this area, it will be interesting to see what he has to say in the coming days.
The Leahy Law
Is there any nation in the world that would be eligible for U.S. aid, including the U.S. itself, if credible evidence of human rights violations really means a cut-off of aid?
I believe the Leahy law speaks to “gross” human rights violation.
If you want to sue Israel then your aid will get pulled because Lindsay Graham says so.
Erratum, TI: it’s spelled “sergeant”. Appears to be a repetitive misspelling, not a typo.
see also:
The slaughter in Gaza: A warning to the international working class
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/08/04/pers-a04.html
Techno-Financial Capital and Genocide of the Poorest of the Poor
petras.lahaine.org/?p=2033
I wonder, is this translated from a different language?
“whomever” not “whoever”
IDF is basically acting like a terror group, in other words. Just like they done countless times before. And no, terrorist muslims doing the same in Syria or Iraq is no justification.
The Israelis have planted the seeds of their own destruction. They are already arguably a failed state (cant gauarantee their own security, cant even identify their borders) and they are inarguably a rogue state. Their control of the US Congress whenever it interests them is all they have left, and that wont last forever.
It won’t last forever. I am sitting on property the Soviets expropriated 70 years ago from my family. Who foresaw the collapse of the Soviet empire? Who remembers the Crusader States in Palestine?
Hats off to Glenn Greenwald for having publicized these atrocities. We can only hope that somehow and in some way justice for them will be realized. Sadly, short of revolution, in which our military and financial profiteers together with the corrupting Sheldon Adelson and his bought political lackeys are arrested, interrogated, tried and sentenced in peoples’ courts, it’ll seem like forever.
IDF–most moral army in history? No.
Many Palestinians and their supporters refer to it as the IOF — the Israeli Occupation Forces.
@ Mona
IOF-Israeli Occupation Forces is certainly more accurate.
Standing with Israel
The US gives billions of dollars every year to Israel so they can slaughter civilians.
Americans paid for every death in Gaza.
Cartoons anyone?
“inappropriate element of religion, rather than nationhood,”
Right. Because Israel is sooo secular as a Nation …
Wonder if PEN will give Glen Le Lievre or the Sydney Morning Herald a “free speech courage award?” Probably not given they capitulated in the face of a lawsuit rather than violence.
See you’re only truly courageous in the context of free speech if you stop publishing satirical content in the face of violence threatened or perpetrated. Which of course seems counterintuitive to the average person that “courage” is in fact synonymous with capitulating to fear by stopping doing something we should all be doing because it is both “good” and “right”–to blaspheme or satirically stereotype things or people.
Then again, this guy gets at most of what I’ve been trying to say on the topic over the last couple of days:
http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2015/5/pen-america-charlie-hebdo-and-the-virtue-of-self-restraint.html
“The Sydney Morning Herald was slammed by the Attorney-General and the Jewish community for using the drawing of an old man seated in an armchair emblazoned with the Star of David, watching comfortably from a hill as bombs dropped on Gaza.
…The Sydney Morning Herald said the cartoon was based on real life photographs that showed men seated in chairs ‘observing the shelling of Gaza from the hills of Sderot’.”
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2715083/Fairfax-apologises-anti-Semitic-cartoon-Attorney-General-brands-deplorable.html
So, in Australia, both the government and members of the Jewish community evidently can sense that there might be something other than abstract, pure, free speech at play here.
But in the CH debate, Salman Rushdie and PEN defenders, can’t think of any reason other than “lunacy” and “cowardice” why dissenting writers are against the award? Seriously?
Can we presume that PEN, Rushdie and their supporters here are also in favor of a “courage award” to Geller, Wilders, et al., for their brave assertion of free speech in Garland, Texas?
No.
Why not?
For reasons I’ve elucidated elsewhere, including on Twitter and by email with Glenn. Mercifully, he didn’t write about Garland here, so I’m declining to get sidetracked from the actual topic. But feel free to see my Twitter TL.
Indeed, why not? They’re not publishing a magazine but they are still exercising free speech.
Mona, I think you over-estimate my interest in your thoughts. If you don’t want to discuss it here, fine. I’m certainly not going to visit the vast twitterverse of intellectual masturbation to pursue it further.
And as for your just-can’t-resist-it reference to email correspondence with Glenn . . . lame.
Lots of people email w/ Glenn, including other regular readers. He’s the one I was most interested in clarifying my position to, especially since he chose to initiate the subject w/ a snotty taunt. (Something I would never do.)
And if you don’t care to see my Twitter TL, fine. But many people who participate here also participate with each other on Twitter. Including — wait for it! — Glenn.
“Mercifully, he didn’t write about Garland”
Obviously too shaken, and mourning the fallen.
And too busy insinuating “they had it coming” all day long, just like he did after the CH atrocity.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CEL2GuKUIAA59cw.jpg
Uh-huh.
Now Louise, do you agree that Palestinians are justified in blowing up Israeli pizzerias as long as there are one or two IDF soldiers there? You know, as you say the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were the “right call” because there was a garrison in each city?
“Right. Because Israel is sooo secular as a Nation …”
Yes…the only State sanctioned criteria of claim to legitimate citizenship rights appears to lie in professed affiliation with the Jewish religious doctrine. All other religious doctrines are excluded in that special and distinct form of secular practice….otherwise known as religious discrimination.
In the case of Israel’s unrelenting and illegal colonization of Palestine one could extend that definition of discrimination to include the practices of apartheid and genocide.
And yes, those are American taxpayer’s dollars going to fund war crimes.
And yes, those are traitors occupying high political offices in all three branches of the U.S. Federal Government.
And yes, the U.S.A. is aiding and abetting by financial and political collusion; the promotion and advancement of war crimes by the State of Israel.
I bet not many will defend their free speech. That’s simply because bigotry against some religions is more taboo than against others, evidently.
I realize I sound like a broken record, but from my perspective at the center of human action is the human self.
When it reflects the negative qualities, the actions are negative.
When it reflects the positive qualities, qualities that are universally recognized to be noble regardless of one’s religious or non-religious affiliations, the actions will be positive and constructive.
So the demand of our age is to groom the self, using whatever method and process one feels suitable for oneself.
“Do not do unto others what you don’t want done unto yourself” seems like a good start.
http://www.zahrapublications.com
– ““Do not do unto others what you don’t want done unto yourself” seems like a good start.”
You self centred arrogant, douche!!! You think it is all about “yourself” don’t you??? I for one am tired of molly coddling your passive-aggressive oral flatulence!!!…wait…
Is this the five minute argument, or the full half hour???
“Passive-aggressive oral flatulence”. Love it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y
Was sad to see Graham Chapman. What talent!
Let’s not forget what happens to blasphemers …
Jehovah or Mohamed, it’s curtains.
Graham Chapman, lucky bastard.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSY4fEEg4j0
There was this pernicious idea, during the 1930s, that Jews born there weren’t Germans, they weren’t at all like them. But as we can see, of course those Jews were Germans. Jews today can be exactly like those same sort of good Germans. The line between good and evil isn’t drawn neatly between peoples, but cuts through every human heart.
Which begs the question:
“Does Israel, aka ‘the Jewish State’, have a right to exist?
Hmmm…
To cite some Biblical examples, did the Midianite, Canaanite or Amalekite peoples in that region have a right to exist? For that matter, did the Cherokee civilization on the North American continent have that right, to cite a more recent example?
good points, CN, the Israelite prophet Samuel claimed that the Canaanites should be utterly destroyed….every man woman child murdered….and he also claimed that this was what God had told him….
even at the beginning, the Israelites stole their “promised land” from other peoples, with the same kind of ferocity they exhibit today….the slaughter was so traumatic, that the Israelite King, Saul went nuts….probably PTSD….
of course the Cherokee nation had a right to exist, under our current human rights laws….but back then, they were “competition”…and had to be reduced…
The whole “Israel’s right to exist” question is a well designed logical fallacy meant to misdirect. In only four words you have asserted that the whole issue is about Israel defending itself and that it has a right to exist. It is like asking “do you still beat your wife?”
The discussion is no longer about “Israel’s right to exist”. The demand is now “Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish State”. Quite another thing altogether.
And it is a state continually expanding into another people’s land.
Committing these crimes was the easy part. The hard part is hiding crimes. In addition to media bias and censorship, there are a lot of people on the internet that will try and prevent this information getting out. Once out, pro-Israeli supporters will try to spin and mislead in various forums. It is not easy to hide and suppress something like this, and pro-Israeli supporters are doing a great job.
That is why each honest person has a duty to 1) inform others about these atrocities and 2) support those who are informing others about these atrocities. More honest people step forward and expose these crimes, harder it will be for criminals to hide them.
Why does any state have a “right” to exist? I mean, is the USSR going to appear in The Hague claiming that it’s rights have been violated?
“it’s rights”
*its
Long story short: Palestinians would do well to divorce themselves from terrorists – it would certainly increase their life expectancy.
Palestinians would do well to divorce themselves from terrorists – it would certainly increase their life expectancy. – Louise Cypher
They’re trying to. Israel won’t sign the papers.
No, Israelis will slaughter Palestinians because they are oppressed victims who resist their oppression; Moshe Dayan understood this, and said in ’56 at a eulogy for a dead israeli soldier:
Lack of justice for the victims ensures no peace.
Terrorists by whose definition?
Many governments agreed that that the Republic of South Africa, aka the Afrikaner’s State did not have a right to exist and the governments of many countries helped end its existence. Wondering what level of criminality and outrage would persuade the various governments that it’s time to help end ‘the Jewish State’.
The destruction of the Nazi State was followed by a ‘denazification’ program and the Nuremberg trials. Even the W. Bush caricature action that ended Iraq’s Baathist State had its debaathifcation initiative and its trials followed by hanging. What should be done to Israel’s Zionazis and their more notorious evildoers once the Jewish State’s existence comes to an end?
Huh? Savagery?
When did the Intercept become a mouthpiece for Hamas?
Article 33, IV Geneva Convention:
Article 33 commentaries:
There’s many a slip ‘twixt the cup and the lip…
Why has it never been implemented in IDF vs. Gaza ?
Armed supremacy has a way of conferring impunity. Gen. LeMay, for instance, quite candidly admitted that what he did with the fire raids in Japan were something of a war crime, and no one was tried for Operation Speedy Express in Vietnam, for example. As for the IDF, they might have a fig-leaf of individual targeting if they played the drone game the US does, claiming they’re picking off the bad guys, accidents happen blah blah. They have the technology. What happened in Gaza, however, was that they roto-tilled a city, and were quite blasé about it.
“What happened in Gaza, however, was that they roto-tilled a city, and were quite blasé about it.”
That’s the way I see it.
And to date no buildings, except for some UN buildings, have been repaired or rebuilt. Israel will not allow any cement and seriously restricts building materials, into Gaza.
Two points from the Independent article Glenn links to:
Which suggests not just a mindset but concerted intent. Then there’s this, linked off the Independent article:
CAMERON SAYS ISRAEL WAS RIGHT TO DEFEND ITSELF OVER GAZA ATTACKS
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/generalelection/david-cameron-says-israel-was-right-to-defend-itself-over-gaza-attacks-last-year-10210203.html
This was dated April 28. UK readers: is this getting any mention in the elections?
Note the PM’s mention of “indiscriminate attacks.”
“is this getting any mention in the elections?”
It is interesting that at this time, UK, Canada, Australia, America’s English language allies are all currently under extremely pro-Isreal government management.
“Australia’s decision to stop referring to East Jerusalem as “occupied” territory and to adopt additional similar steps that will likely please Israel and anger the Palestinians came as a retaliatory measure against Palestinian officials who in recent months repeatedly and ferociously attacked Canberra’s Middle East policies in public, The Times of Israel has learned. “
http://www.timesofisrael.com/palestinian-rage-behind-australias-amplified-pro-israel-stance/
Well, yes. Is there any major party that isn’t complicit in any of those countries?
“Is there any major party that isn’t complicit in any of those countries?”
If it is a battle of good vs evil, then there isn’t room for much nuance in a party’s manifesto.
“On April 25, 2003, Stephen Harper appeared at a gathering of conservatives in Toronto brought together by the Civitas group.
He was leader of the Canadian Alliance party, a thankless job with little likelihood he could knock the governing Liberals from their perch.
But Harper’s speech that day, later reprinted in an essay, was remarkably prescient.
For anyone who cared to notice, it revealed how he would one day turn Canadian foreign policy on its head and, perhaps most notably, make this country the world’s most fervent ally of Israel.
Harper said Canada’s conservatives needed to “rediscover” the traditional conservatism of political philosopher Edmund Burke, which valued “social order,” custom and religious traditions.
“We need to rediscover Burkean conservatism because the emerging debates on foreign affairs should be fought on moral grounds,” said Harper.
“Current challenges in dealing with terrorism and its sponsors, as well as the emerging debate on the goals of the U.S. as the sole superpower, will be well served by conservative insights on preserving historic values and moral insights on right and wrong.”
Harper stressed that unlike the “modern left” — which had adopted a position of “moral neutrality” — conservatives understood “the notion that moral rules form a chain of right and duty, and that politics is a moral affair.””
http://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/the-harper-doctrine-why-canadas-prime-minister-supports-israel
In short: foreign affairs should be fought on moral grounds… you know, with cluster bombs!!!
“Fought on moral grounds … historic values and moral insights on right and wrong.”
Steve Harper began as the factotum for insurance millionaire Colin Brown, of the astroturf National Citizens Coalition, a corporate lobbying group.
WaPo has this to say about the Tories, Cameron and the GOP (h/t Krugman blog):
Conservative Party’s fortune is cautionary tale for GOP
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/conservative-partys-fortune-is-cautionary-tale-for-gop/2015/05/02/eb64d04c-f0de-11e4-8050-839e9234b303_story.html
From the comments:
excellent!! thanks for that…
Canadian Conservatives are closer to the Americkan version, than the British version….at least the members of the Harpocrite Party, and their supporters….
one small problem with that hypocritical speech by Harper….he is in fact the exact opposite of “moral”, or “ethical”, or “democratic”…he has joined the general rush to impose the National Security Police State upon his fellow citizens due to his own paranoia…he is not a statesman, he is a paranoid sociopathic control freak….and being an extremist Evangelical Christian, he does honestly believe that he should be Israel’s best friend….no matter WHAT they may do, or how much blood they’ve spilled in their Zionist aggrandisement of Israel, by stealing ever more land out from under the Palestinians….for Harper and his Fascist thugs in government, Israel can do no wrong….
this of course makes Canada a bulls-eye target in the eyes of radical Islamist “terrorist” types….
And the missles the Hamas shot on israeli civilians? Thats OK?
No. Folks should try talking. Dying rhetorically is easier to recover from.
How simplistic must one’s mind be to think that condemning one evil means condoning another?
Or that pointing out the disparities in those evils is same?
http://visualizingpalestine.org/visuals/timeline-of-violence
From the commentaries to Art. 33, IV Geneva Convention:
Indiscriminate attacks by artillery or aircraft, manned or unmanned, do happen in warfare. Hamas’ rockets are one example. IDF’s conduct, with considerably more ordinance, are part of it, as is US conduct in its recent campaigns in the Middle East. The question is your own side’s intent, and there seems to be no exception when the intent is to kill the other side’s civilians, either deliberate or implied. You kill a child, it doesn’t matter what the real or fancied provocation was.
Israel’s repeated and ongoing ignoring not only of The Fourth Geneva Convention and its articles, plus various and sundry international laws, plus UN Security Council Resolution 242, which compelled it to withdraw from occupied territories, has long slid it into the category of a rouge state and a state that collectively acts as a war criminal. A good case can be made for the right of an occupied people to defend itself against a war criminal.
testing 1,2,3..
“Anything still there is as good as dead. Anything you see moving…is not supposed to be there. Anything you see moving in the neighborhoods you’re in is not supposed to be there. The civilians know they are not supposed to be there. Therefore whoever you see there, you kill. – From the article
The Israel Drone Army. Mirrors the US drone policy. Coincidence? Hardly. Wait till Israel gets airborne drones.
Anything you see moving in the neighborhoods you’re in is not supposed to be there.
Quite analogous to the US/Coalition view of the entire Middle East, particularly regarding droning any visible ‘target': since we’re there in the air with our drone-warfare, the civilians are fair game. Therefore whoever you see there, you kill.
“For the powerful, crimes are those that others commit.” – Noam Chomsky, Imperial Ambitions: Conversations on the Post-9/11 World
Notice that Israel is a country that understands PR matters, and this still happens. There’s a reason why Netanyahu gives speeches and goes on interviews at every opportunity.
I’m reminded of the Harris-Chomsky exchange. The entire Sam Harris narrative depends on the idea that “intent” is key at distinguishing violence. Basically, one side is made up of savages who engage in violence just because they like to be violent, and the other side engages in violence only for noble reasons or because they have to. It’s essentially an ethnocentric fairy tale that he actually appears to believe to a large extent, with no evidence to back it up — no different to any religious dogma.
I wonder, does religion also explain these Israeli atrocities, or is it something else?
There’s this:
Rula Jabreal on Ayaan Hirsi Ali
“To endorse Hirsi Ali—as pundits everywhere from Fox News to network news have—insults and mocks a billion Muslims
You can’t count yourself among those working to reform Islam when you openly argue that the only way to reform Islam is to “crush” it. That message may resonate with Islamophobic audiences in the West, but it simply underscores her alienation from — indeed, her antagonism towards — those actually involved in a struggle to reform Islam and fight violent extremism. We cannot fight jihadists while embracing views as intolerant and inflexible as theirs, or make common cause with monarchs who share the religious outlook of the jihadists. Hirsi Ali actually plays a destructive role by reinforcing a belief among young Muslims that the hatred of Islam has been normalized in the West — a sentiment that further fuels radicalization.”
http://www.salon.com/2015/05/04/ayaan_hirsi_ali_is_dangerous_why_we_must_reject_her_hateful_worldview/
This Hirsi Ali fled the Netherlands when it was revealed that she had lied on her refugee application, and the Netherlands was getting ready to deport her. Some of her relatives have also spoken up about her manufactured past. Those abuses by wild-eyed Islamists never happened. She fled to the U.S. and into the arms of the American Enterprise Institute. No doubt she gets on well with Pam Geller.
I’m reminded of the Harris-Chomsky exchange. The entire Sam Harris narrative depends on the idea that “intent” is key at distinguishing violence. – Jose
Sums up Mr. Harris’ derailment very well. Speaking of intent and derailment, this also dovetails into the Charlie Hebdo imbroglio, in that some (Glenn Greenwald & The PEN Protesters) are arguing without evidence that Charlie Hebdo actually intended to harm specific individuals, when in fact there was nothing of the kind going on with their satire.
It’s a hypocritical argument on both their parts, in that in speaking about actual physical violence, Mr. Harris drives off the tracks of rationality arguing that the intent of those inflicting physical violence is the key to assigning responsibility; while Mr. Greenwald and the PEN dissenters argue that the intent of the satire produced by Charlie Hebdo is somehow tantamount to rhetorical violence against a targeted audience.
“some (Glenn Greenwald & The PEN Protesters) are arguing without evidence that Charlie Hebdo actually intended to harm specific individuals, when in fact there was nothing of the kind going on with their satire.”
I must have missed that in GG’s argument. From what I’ve read of the CH cartoonists, it was not their intention to harm individuals. CH seems genuinely intent on mocking religions where they deserve it. My concern is when the effect of their work does harm, say, to the integration of French Muslims, and is useful for violent extremist group propaganda.
When the content of their work, misses the mark… “the road to hell is paved with good intentions”
My concern is when the effect of their work does harm, say, to the integration of French Muslims, and is useful for violent extremist group propaganda. – JLocke
I share that concern, which goes well beyond Hebdo with regards to ideas shaping behaviors. As with the shootings at a “Draw Mohammad” exhibition in Texas yesterday, there will always be those who use others words/ideas to commit physical violence, as in that case or rhetorical violence as in the case of the French marginalizing some of it’s citizens (both by laws and individual citizens actions).
That said, arguing that the events and activities like the PEN award to Charlie Hebdo (or the “Draw Mohammad” exhibition) should be curtailed or marginalized is actually defeating the purpose of dialog. It’s censorship.
What we need is more dialog, not less, and it simply does not follow that limiting the freedoms to express oneself in writing or speech as with the examples above will therefore actually create a better dialog for everyone. That”s just not how it has ever worked, or how it ever will.
Yes, it’s an arduous process that cannot provide succor to all voices and victims all at once – but it beats continuing down the path of censorship, fascist legislation, and propaganda that we’re currently on.
“If you can’t say “Fuck” you can’t say, “Fuck the government.” – Lenny Bruce
“That said, arguing that the events and activities like the PEN award to Charlie Hebdo (or the “Draw Mohammad” exhibition) should be curtailed or marginalized is actually defeating the purpose of dialog. It’s censorship. “
I haven’t read anyone saying that the PEN event should be curtailed or marginalized or censored. The dissenting authors are questioning the worthiness of Charlie Hebdo for the award. I think they have some good points.
I haven’t read anyone saying that the PEN event should be curtailed or marginalized or censored. – JLocke
It seems to me that they have written about it in this aspect: ‘Censor – to remove or suppress what is considered morally, politically, or otherwise objectionable.’
As I understand it, Glenn and The PEN Protestors feel that it’s better to suppress Charlie Hebdo’s speech/ideas than it is to support uphold the idea. That seems both suppressive and marginalizing, and counterintuitively, as an organization that is centered on the idea of free expression, it is shooting yourself in the foot with regards to standing up for speech.
The reason they think that way seems to be based on two main criteria: First they feel that the ‘managerial’ levels of the PEN organization may have been or will be co-opted by state or other interests inimical to PEN’s role in doing all the good things PEN does around the world (if true, a legitimate concern irrespective of the Hebdo award) and secondly, they feel that Charlie Hebdo was intent on actually harming individuals rather than satirizing ideas, irrespective of the fact that satire will inevitably make some feel uncomfortable, particularly when the satire affects a deeply held belief – which is almost always the case.
I certainly don’t have all the answers here, and I haven’t read all of the correspondence, tweets, etc., but I do think that Glenn and The PEN Protesters are missing the mark with regards to addressing the concerns of PEN being co-opted and some people being marginalized.
As far as PEN being co-opted is concerned, there is a process (and the protests are part of that) for the members to address that specific concern and they should use those mechanisms to make their voices heard and affect the change they desire.
As far as some people feeling marginalized by the satire of Charlie Hebdo, there are processes in place in most democracies/republics to address that specific concern that should be used to address this problem.
In any case, the award given to Charlie Hebdo should not have anything to do with addressing these issues, as that is a distinct and separate matter altogether.
as i recall, they were not general in their mocking of all religions…i seem to recall further that a writer of an anti Zionist article, or cartoon, don’t remember which, was fired from the magazine….seems to me that only Islam was their main target….just the people who consider drawings of people, especially the Prophet, to be blasphemy…
“Election of Miss Potato Sack” : http://nsm05.casimages.com/img/2011/02/28//1102280221531281037731163.jpg
“arguing without evidence that Charlie Hebdo actually intended to harm specific individuals”
You cannot dissociate CH’s obsession with Islam from the overall climate towards French Muslims during the past decade. CH helped fuel that climate.
You can’t claim Greenwald produced no evidence. In one of his earlier articles, he linked to the following op ed by a former CH contributor, which speaks volumes : http://posthypnotic.randomstatic.net/charliehebdo/Charlie_Hebdo_article%2011.htm
Were the late cartoonists racist ? No, they weren’t, at least not wittingly.
Did they have biases ? In 2005, the WSJ published the following op ed by a regular CH contributor : https://burqablabla.wordpress.com/2012/03/21/the-war-for-eurabia-by-caroline-fourest-ainsi-que-sa-traduction-en-francais-le-texte-evoque-par-m-chichah-lorsquil-a-ete-designe-et-appele-au-devant-de-la-salle-de-conference-par-m-guy-haar/
Harris could have written that op ed himself…
Did CH have taboos ? Yes, it did, whereas its truly anarchist version from the 70ies/80ies didn’t : http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51xYisJ-zGL._SS500_.jpg
Irregardless of the intent of their satire, the fact of the matter is that they ‘willfully’ published caricatures of a religion’s prophet that they ‘knew’ were viewed as blasphemous (.. in the eyes of that religion’s populous). So in reality, they ‘intended’ to mock ones religion, which in turn, was ‘harmful to specific individuals’..
dong`r
And distilled there folks is the argument made by left and right for censoring this or that speech. “Piss Christ” offends Xtians and so “harms” them. “Huckleberry Finn” writes realistically about slaves, and so “harms” blacks. Calling a woman a “bitch” is sexist and “harms” her. Harm should be criminal, right?
And then there were these awful gays in the UK who entirely understood that their work was blasphemous to Xtians:
So donger, you related to Lord Scarman?
And distilled there folks is the argument made by left and right for censoring this or that speech. “Piss Christ” offends Xtians and so “harms” them. “Huckleberry Finn” writes realistically about slaves, and so “harms” blacks. Calling a woman a “bitch” is sexist and “harms” her. Harm should be criminal, right? – Mona
Precisely. These disaffected writers that claim they are being harmed by PEN giving the award to Charlie Hebdo, and those claiming to be harmed by the satire of Charlie Hebdo have avenues to address these claims; and these issues are independent of the award altogether.
If a society (let’s say it’s France for the sake of argument) feels they have marginalized citizens, then by all means do whatever needs done to protect them using the laws of the land. If any (let’s say French citizens for the sake of argument) feel they are being marginalized, then by all means they need to do whatever needs done to protect themselves using the laws of the land.
In each case, if current laws don’t adequately address the concerns, then use the existing structures to create change to make laws that do. If any particularity society doesn’t have those structures in place to affect change, then make them. It’s not easy, but history has already proved that. It’s also doable; and history has proved that as well.
Just don’t throw ideas such as the non-violent expression of satire under the bus to get there. It’s a knee-jerk reaction that will create more unintended harm than the harm that it purportedly mitigates. History has proved this, too.
Very well said.
And now with that, I’d prefer to rhetorically smack Zionists around than continue arguing with my usual allies.
“violence only for noble reasons or because they have to.”
One of the most popular memes involves Israel, residing as it does in “a tough neighbourhood”. So, Israel, attacks its neighbours, has nukes, is a warrior culture, “because it has to”.
“Israel is a small country in a big, bad neighbourhood. You can drive from one end to the other in a few hours, and across it in much less time than that. You can see Lebanon, Syria and Jordan in the north, and Saudi Arabia and Egypt in the south. You can’t see Iran, but the nuke-crazed mullahs aren’t far away. Israel is a warrior culture, not by choice but because it has to be.”
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/israel-is-a-small-country-in-a-big-bad-neighbourhood/article11866787/
And this is precisely why it’s a DOUBLE WAR CRIME to wage war from within a civilian area and to use one’s own neighborhood and women and children as human shields.
Yes, even if it IS in the name of holy Jeeehad.
BTW, your facts are wrong on the civilian/terrorist ratio. And you’ve quoted NO Military experts or experts in military law.
Agreed. It’s absolutely a war crime to go in and destroy civilian areas, bring down whole apartment buildings and such, and as you say, use civilians as human shields. As the army of a nation state with significant resources, the IDF should be trained to know better.
I know I should cut down on the Nazi references but when someone says:
“And this is precisely why it’s a DOUBLE WAR CRIME to wage war from within a civilian area and to use one’s own neighborhood …”
It’s history time.
“Between 1941 and 1943, underground resistance movements developed in approximately 100 ghettos in Nazi-occupied eastern Europe (about one-fourth of all ghettos), especially in Poland, Lithuania, Belorussia, and the Ukraine. Their main goals were to organize uprisings, break out of the ghettos, and join partisan units in the fight against the Germans. “
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005407
So I guess “ DOUBLE WAR CRIME” charges are in order for those that waged “war from within a civilian area”???? Coram nobis, what are the relevant statutes???
Relevant statutes can be found in III and IV Geneva Conventions, esp. Common Art. 3 and those touching on use of human shields and reprisals. See also Art. 4 definition of legal combatant. Statute of Rome (ICC) will have similar material, building on Geneva.
I think cutting down on the Nazi comparisons would be helpful. They are odious, in the way that a venus fly trap is odious. Appealing perhaps, but once entered, impossible to escape.
Uh-huh. Except the situation in Gaza is more akin to a prison population crossed with the Warsaw Ghetto. As with prisons and the ghetto, the types of weapons that can be smuggled in are crude and unsophisticated, and the population resists their oppressor — with it’s state-of-the-art carnage machines — as best it can.
Moral or not the IDF cevilian:combatants ration is 1:1, the US in afghanistan is how much? a staggering 8:1 !! and that’s in remote villages not densely packed cities like the Gaza strip.
Israel is not the good guy nor is it the bad one, so stop treating this conflict as such,it’s time to grow up.
This is probably the last place on the internet where you can accuse people of viewing the world as composed of good guys vs. bad guys.
Oh, please. Israel is aiming bombs and bullets at its victims. A people whose land, cities, villages and orchards it simply stole, and then corralled the survivors and their descendants into an open air prison on the Gaza strip. A population of people who are denied — by their oppressor, Israel — access to any but the most unsophisticated and inadequate defense weapons.
The “only democracy’s” “most moral army” is brutally oppressing a people described this way by Moshe Dayan in 1956 at a funeral for an israeli soldier killed by a Palestinian locked into the Gaza strip:
Israel is not just the “bad guy,” it is the vile, oppressive one.
Mona. I so like the way you engage here, but disagree with some of the history you seem too willing to elide. Answering, surely with elisions of my own, I would like to comment that it is a trope that Israel stole Palestine. Nothing more. Setting aside the Holocaust, going back a bit further, L’affaire Dreyfus and Russian Pogroms did not unleash a wave of land thieves. Hardly. Even Zionism’s founder’s cozy and sometimes sycophantic dependency upon the imperial masters of Palestine and Transjordan doesn’t make them, or the mass of refugees who followed in their train, land thieves. While it is largely the case that Palestinian natives were not “consulted” in the matter of Jewish settlement, significant numbers of their community leaders were, and Palestinians vigorously engaged in the transaction of sales of land to Jewish settlers. As with most historical developments, Zionism was assuredly a mixed and varied enterprise, but to a very great extent, a necessary one, the necessity for which the Zionists of the late 19th and early 20th centuries were alone in recognizing. None of this is to say that the period has not been frequently glossed and packaged in propaganda mostly flattering to the modern state of Israel. When that came into being, its militarization was abrupt and decisive, to be sure, with tragic consequences that have mushroomed to the hideous, and unsustainable human catastrophe which prevails today. Nevertheless, it should not be ignored how often has the offer of partition or even two states been flatly refused by Palestinians, at least since 1922. If as you say Israel is not just a “bad guy,” it is the vile, oppressive one, I cannot agree, on the basis of the sheer volume of intransigence and vile self-dealing by Palestinian so-called leadership to the horrific detriment of Palestinians. It needs to be seen and stated that the Palestinian people have been, and continue to be, at least as victimized by their own leaders as they are by Israel. For all his talent as a polemicist, I am afraid that the generation schooled in the writing of Edward Said has succumbed to the late professor’s own paternalistic distortions of the historic record (and of Arabs as human agents), as we are now awash in screaming, purple ink and more blood; not one whit nearer resolution of the conflict. Please accept these thoughts as genuinely, respectfully offered.
Gaza would hardly be a densely packed city if the “light onto the nations” Israel would lift the total siege on Gaza. There is not much difference between Gaza and the Warsaw Ghetto, is there? When is Israel going to comply with UN Security Council Resolution 242 and withdraw from the territories it occupies?
how about never? that seems to be the way things are going….
The IDF soldiers feeling bad about their actions (in some cases) seems like the only consequence.
Pretty disgusting.
You are talking to a Pamela Geller hate bot. Don’t wast your breath . Does the name Louise Cypher sound real to you?
“Military Sock Puppets, NSA Trolls & CIA Shills”
http://ronaldthomaswest.com/2014/04/18/military-sock-puppets-nsa-trolls-cia-shills/
‘Glenn Greenwald spends quite a bit of time trolling the mainstream media, and I’d hate to see him banned from this site’ ~ Benito
http://www.gchq-careers.co.uk/departments/analysis.html
Aka Lucifer.
Israel is committing suicide. And once they do, people will STILL find a way to blame everyone else for it.
If the Egyptian coup, and the Saudi invasion of Yemen are praiseworthy, then how can the West’s governments criticize Israel:
“Israel won plaudits from its allies in London and Washington for the war was conducted. General Martin Dempsey, the chairman of the US joint chiefs, the United States’ most senior military officer said in November last year that, “Israel went to extraordinary lengths to limit collateral damage and civilian casualties”.
Last week, in an interview with the Jewish Chronicle newspaper, David Cameron made one of his strongest defences of the Israeli position yet.
Using a phrase that was coined by Israeli premier Benjamin Netanyahu, the prime minister said that it was “important to speak out” about standing by Israel and said there was an “important difference” between Israel’s use of weapons to defend itself and Hamas’ use of them “to defend its weapons”.”
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/fire-at-every-person-you-see-israeli-soldiers-reveal-they-were-ordered-to-shoot-to-kill-in-gaza–even-if-the-targets-may-have-been-civilians-10223427.html
Yes, Cameron is concerned about weapons…
“(CNN)Human Rights Watch has accused Saudi Arabia of dropping U.S.-supplied cluster bombs in the fight against Houthi rebels in Yemen.
The small bombs, if unexploded, can lay dormant and then detonate when people stumble upon one by chance, killing or maiming them as a result.
An international treaty against cluster bombs has been adopted by 116 countries, but the United States, Saudi Arabia and Yemen are not among them. ”
http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/03/middleeast/yemen-hrw-cluster-munitions-saudi-arabia/
Cry me a river.
Are you fucking mental?
You obviously wouldn’t be saying the same thing if the victims were Western, and the perpetrating army were from, say, an African country, even if the atrocities are exactly the same, with the same types of justifications and, you know, “we mean well” ostensible intent.
A river of blood, shithead?
Eat shit and die.
“Military Sock Puppets, NSA Trolls & CIA Shills”
http://ronaldthomaswest.com/2014/04/18/military-sock-puppets-nsa-trolls-cia-shills/
As a self-described moderate, I actually find that a little insulting. If Louise were a sock puppet (which I don’t think she is) it would be more reasonable to assume that she’s a puppet on behalf of the far left, as a sort of “See what these views look like!” warning against those who disagree.
Maybe you should read the contents at the link provided.
It covers all sorts of trolling activity regardless of allegiance to possible political factions of which you identify as a moderate.
Except…that link could be a bit more thorough with reference to Hasbara efforts.
See: “A Guide To HASBARA TROLLS”
https://whitewraithe.wordpress.com/a-guide-to-hasbara-trolls/
Why would anyone troll with the intent of making themselves look bad? Half joking, but my point is that there is an implicit assumption in your comment that such views are probably appealing to certain groups.
That is the express purpose of the Hasbara.
To troll the Internet with the intent to spread one-sided propaganda which decidedly favors one group over another.
In that sense, this particular cybor-identity has demonstrated on numerous other articles in TI comment sections a propensity for making hate comments directed toward Muslim populations in general and has even threatened another commenter. In conjunction with that, this identity attempts to slander the characters of the journalists writing the articles upon which he/she/it is commenting. This is in clear violation of TI Terms of Use which states that users will NOT “Engage in personal attacks, harass or threaten another user, or deliberately disrupt the conversation.”
One has only to review the comment sections of other articles to see that this identity is deliberately trying to disrupt genuine conversation for whatever trolling purpose it might serve.
It is still trolling and in violation of TI Terms of Use.
Possible reasons:
1. It’s fun poking the hornets’ nest, particularly when they can buzz loudly, but not actually sting (taunting).
2. New readers who glance at the comments will see a string of insults and be put off from participating (poisoning the well).
3. She can proclaim elsewhere that she made an innocuous statement and was answered with abusive replies, and claim Intercept readers are unreasonable (this may actually be true).
4. To show her contempt.
5. All of the above.
@Lyra
I would be very disappointed if trolling were in violation of TI Terms of Use. Glenn Greenwald spends quite a bit of time trolling the mainstream media, and I’d hate to see him banned from this site.
The TI Terms of Use are clear on the points cited Mr. Mussolini.
Users agree to NOT: “Engage in personal attacks, harass or threaten another user, or deliberately disrupt the conversation.”
I seriously doubt that Mr. Greenwald is engaging in those practices. He can simply write and publish an article to accomplish a direct frontal character assault which is done to open conversation on a topic that might involve the use of a propaganda dialogue which might need to be interrupted. He does this without resorting to harassment.
Lyra – I hope you can see the irony in kicking someone off the comments section because it’s ‘obvious’ in your narrative that they must be a nefarious troll working for some organization or other. That wouldn’t get real tyrannical real fast. FWIW, I don’t think Louise is a troll, my sense is that she feels a bit guilty about her own stance so she’s overcompensating with all the ‘tough talk’. If she’s a troll, she’s like the worst troll ever, because she makes pretty much any opposing view seem kind and reasonable in contrast.
Benito – maybe. But if she’s a troll, I still say she’s not a particularly effective one, unless she’s an unaffiliated troll and just wants to engage in that behavior for her own personal reasons.
@Lyra
Deliberately disrupting the conversation is what Socrates did. He liked to ask provocative questions and challenge conventional wisdom. Everybody hated him.
In other words, he believed in freedom of speech.
What TI does with those commenters that violate their own stated policies is not my determination or yours Nic.
It is theirs.
Not to state the obvious but I don’t imagine that any one opinion would impact significantly in making that determination.
I would expect, however, that TI would not get tyrannical in enforcing their own policies. They have not done that in the past, and I would not expect a future development of that nature.
Oh, not so fast Benito. There is a time and a place to accuse people of being trolls, for example and primarily “When they are doing things that I don’t like”. For example, I would like to accuse Laura Poitras of trolling me personally for making her Youtube Panda Films ‘private’ so that I cannot see them, which is a clear case of trolling because it pissed me off. As the great Michael Scott once said when defending a questionable case of hate speech: “Well I hated it. A lot, ok?”.
I would think you, of all people, would understand this.
The troll’s credo:
Yes Mr. Mussolini….
But Socrates was not bound by an implied agreement to conform to TI’s Terms of Use.
Freedom of speech is not the issue in this particular case study.
Only freedom of speech which violates the quoted item in TI Terms of Use is subject to scrutiny here.
Apparently Socrates was able to stay within the limits of law when posing questions.
Given your in-corporal essence….you are in a good position to ask him about such things.
Hmph. As my mother would say, someone had a very high opinion of himself.
I did. He asked if I’d agreed to the implied contract. I asked if he had agreed to stay within the limits of the law. Then we both laughed.
Showing yet again that Benito is a jewel in this comment section.
As for what the Terms of Service say about comment rules, I can’t take those too seriously. By which I mean, I can’t imagine the day when Glenn Greenwald would ever enforce those standards.
To get deleted or banned in Glenn’s space, the primary offense has always been VOLUME+. That is, e.g.,: VOLUME + stupid, VOLUME + same hobby horse, VOLUME + crazy (as determined by Glenn). Other than that, and publishing illegal or private contact information, he almost never mods.
Thanks you for the update, Mona “I’m with the band, m’kay, and don’t you ever forget it” Holland. I think Glenn’s inclusiveness is admirable.
The “terms of use” were written by a horrible person who hates the internet, freedom, and most likely people in general.
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/terms-use/
Lawyers are like the military, their advice is always a path to war.
Fist of all I love that by reading things I have agreed to a contract. How horrible of a person do you need to be to think of stuff like this.
The good news. Lawyers are paid by the word. The bad news. U.S. copyright law does not apply outside of the U.S.
And also “exploit”? Seriously? I can’t exploit it? What the fuck does that mean? Who wrote this monstrosity?
Let me repeat that.
OK, this is just nuts. ‘Back out of the room slowly’ insane. I don’t know what is funnier that someone actually thought this up, or that the Intercept paid for it. And the best part is that the whole point of this is to get a cut of the action.
When greed, idiocy, and entitlement converge we end up with modern capitalism. And this is a fine example.
Nothing but contempt for the internet. Suck it.
And in exchange for all this love and respect you get to tie your shoes with your teeth and also somehow you give up your patents when you post. Who wrote this monstrosity?
I have read bad “Terms of Use” (god I love that phrase–it says everything) but this one combines greed, idiocy, and entitlement in ways that should be recognized.
Maybe it’s a different allegiance, signified by a misspelling. She/he/it may have meant “Crimea River,” a coded reference to certain events in eastern Europe of late. Aren’t the sides in that war deploying bloggers and commenters as well?
Yes coram nobis…I suppose that is possible.
Now that you mention it…that “divide and rule” strategy does crop up repeatedly over the scope of the desired U.S./NATO empiric conquests on planet Earth.
But this article is rather specific to the acquisition of land and land assets in Palestine under direct Israeli attack with full U.S. support of that endeavor. Best to leave it in that theater of operations.
Why is that, ‘Cyphilis’.. Did you have an allergic reaction to the penicillin that made you nauseous w/ seizures? If so, have you contemplated increasing the dosages to aid in the alleviation of your suffering?
swayve hunnee Looeeze Sighfur gonna ned moer tahn peneshillium to fix wat ailz hur don u no.
Breathing your air, Tartlet!!
What I wouldn’t give to see those bodacious Ta-Talinos owning the rarified air of the isle of ‘Mink’onos (.. once again)..
A Mabel Minkoff Works The Butt-Floss Production
Cypher – hey, the name says it all doesn’t it?!?!?! Who else other than a moral/ethical/spiritual “cypher” would have such a response? To quote Shakespeare’s ultimate crie de coeur via King Lear, “You are men of stone”.