(This post is from our new blog: Unofficial Sources.)
If you read the sketchy New York Times article on the Delta Force raid into Syria a few days ago — how an ISIS leader was killed when he “tried to engage” American commandos while his fighters used women and children as shields, and an 18-year-old slave was freed with no civilian casualties thanks to “very precise fire” — you can be forgiven for thinking, “Haven’t I seen this movie before?”
You probably have, and it was called Zero Dark Thirty, the film directed by Kathryn Bigelow, written by Mark Boal and backed with gusto by the Central Intelligence Agency. The CIA provided Bigelow and Boal with privileged access to officials and operators behind the hunt for Osama bin Laden — and not coincidently, their movie portrayed the CIA’s torture program as essential to the effort to find and kill the leader of al Qaeda. It grossed more than $132 million worldwide.
Zero Dark Thirty was criticized by a number of writers (including me) when it came out in 2012, and now it is being treated as a political farce in a new Frontline documentary scheduled to be broadcast by PBS on Tuesday, May 19. Titled “Secrets, Politics and Torture,” the show explores the CIA’s effort to persuade Congress, the White House and the American public that its “enhanced interrogation methods” were responsible for extracting from unwilling prisoners the clues that led to bin Laden and other enemy targets.
Jane Mayer, the New Yorker writer whose work on CIA torture has been exemplary, explains that the team behind Zero Dark Thirty was conned by the CIA.
“The CIA’s business is seduction, basically,” she says in the documentary. “And to seduce Hollywood producers, I mean they are easy marks compared to some of the people that the CIA has to go after.”
Another journalist, Michael Isikoff, connects the final dots by pointing out the harm caused by political lies that find their way into blockbuster films.
“Movies like Zero Dark Thirty have a huge impact,” he says. “More people see them, and more people get their impressions about what happened from a movie like that than they do from countless news stories or TV spots.”
The Frontline documentary could not come at a better moment. Just last week, investigative journalist Seymour Hersh published a 10,000-word story in the London Review of Books that challenged much of the official narrative about the hunt for bin Laden. You don’t have to believe everything Hersh wrote — and I don’t, including the reference to SEAL team members throwing some of bin Laden’s corpse over the Hindu Kush — to appreciate the debate he has re-opened over the considerable holes in the government’s story.
There is a saying in the military that first reports are always wrong. We need to remember this lesson when we get first reports of the latest military or intelligence successes — and the second reports and the movies, too. Much that the Pentagon said about the rescue of Private Jessica Lynch during the invasion of Iraq turned out to be fictitious. The media’s portrayal of the toppling of a statue of Saddam Hussein in Firdos Square was pretty much the opposite of what really happened as Marines stormed into Baghdad on April 9, 2003. Similar problems of fact probably exist in this week’s accounts of a flawless killing of an ISIS leader (or at least a man whom the military tells us is an ISIS leader).
The Frontline documentary includes a clip from Zero Dark Thirty in which a CIA torturer yells at an al Qaeda prisoner, “When you lie to me, I hurt you!” A repurposing of that line would hold true for the government and the American public — when it lies to us, it hurts us.
Photo: Jessica Chastain in “Zero Dark Thirty” via Sony Pictures
“Frontline” broadcast documents CIA torture program
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2015/05/21/fron-m21.html
Maybe we should require there to be a shortened version of Zero Dark Thirty with all the CIA-inspired factual errors removed and then have a full version of the torture report released by the Senate?
“Require”? ‘Good Luck’ w/ that..
Thank you, Mr. Maass, for your reporting.
You note your skepticism of Hersh’s report of throwing Bin Laden’s body parts out of the helicopter. I’m curious why you doubt that. Hillhouse had a source who revealed the incident in 2011, and the source may be different than Hersh’s.
All the CIA officials interviewed for the FRONTLINE piece come across as sociopaths, totally morally depraved and serial liars. The CIA Lawyer is a real piece of work. And the baton got passed from Bush to Obama and things have gotten arguably worse.
For all the skepticism that has finally crept into the discussion of the Seal team’s mission, one thing has steadfastly not been questioned: the allegation that the person killed was in fact Osama bin Laden. The evidence was not presented, only claimed. So what would happen if you were to add that to the list of unanswered questions? I explored this in a short story that I wrote at the time, called ‘Loose Ends’, that’s on my WordPress blog. What possibilities does that question open for you?
klurgsheld.wordpress.com/2011/05/07/short-story-loose-ends/
The American general public is so gulible, so comfortbly numb and dumb that you could shit down their throat and get them to nod patriotically if the great brainwash machine called “media” publicises it as “good for this great nation”, “protecting American lives” or “fighting for freedom” .
There is a reason for the public being “numb and dumb” and that is that from the time of Roosevelt until Reagan/Clinton most people could believe that their government had their best interests at heart. They didn’t have to pay attention because all three branches of government were filled with people whose intentions were basically good. Read some of the things Eisenhower said about quality of life issues for the general public and you’d think it was Bernie Sanders speaking. Not paying attention turned into a habit and we are seeing the results now.
Throwing body parts from the heli….I can picture them only bringing home part of his body (like his head) and throwing the rest out. I remember Bush had asked for his head at one point, there might be something there.
Bush also had shut down the department that was responsible to search Osama Bin Ladin and bring him to “Justice”. That was the time when they started saying that this thing was bigger then one person so we are not going to focus on that just one individual.
Ever hear of using deception in war? We did it with Patton and his cardboard tanks and fake army before D-Day. Ever hear of Norman Schwarkoph’s – Hail Mary strategy to attack Iraq from the West instead of the South like Saddam thought? What Bush did in 2005 was say he didn’t care about UBL while at the same time combining the different departments bin Laden groups into one CIA bin Laden Unit. The media is a useful tool when used correctly – ISIS or Daesh is doing a pretty good job of telling stories – some true and some as deception right now. I suspect that 0bama talking about Global Warming being a greater threat than ISIS is some type of ruse to trick the leaders of ISIS.
The reality throughout our lives have mainly been about the coup d’etat in 1963 completing the infiltration of the USA Republic where media, corporations, institutions buy into falsehoods and by keeping people distracted and divided so they are not recognizing the fascist regime our world is living under. WWII had not ended and the rights of the free are losing after all these years. This is why I produced a direct line to a reality that so many are in denial or distraction about.. “Dark Legacy – JFK and 9-11.” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c91u0U0a5iE&feature=share&list=UURxQDhx8ACN3Ur-kz0ZKkNw
A reminder: we were shown no evidence – none – that it was Bin Laden that was killed in Abbottabad, in fact, just the opposite. We were shown a sanitation operation, right to our faces; but we “saw” Bin Laden.
Another reminder: the CIA agent who headed the Bin Laden team was the same – the very same – agent that coordinated the CIA evidence for Colin Powell’s Feb 2003 speech before the UN and the world: “Saddam Has WMD”. CIA agent Michael J. Morell sat for several days, personally, with Colin Powell going over the evidence in preparation for Powell’s speech. Same CIA professional-liar agent.
Reminder: The body was thrown overboard immediately to the bottom of the ocean, Mafia-style.
The ubiquitous helmet-cameras, found even in minor patrols in Afghanistan, were originally heralded and then we were told that they “never existed”.
The photos of the body were ordered destroyed or locked away in CIA vaults out of reach of the public. If the Pentagon is to believed this order was given nine days after the mission.
The witnesses, the Seals, were ordered to be silent forever.
The DNA was handled by the CIA itself.
The first Seal to break silence wrote “No Easy Day” and was interviewed on “60 Minutes”. He is the Seal that spent the most time with the body in Abbottabad, kneeling down to take samples; comparing the profile to pictures the Seal carried with him. That Seal refused to make the ID. The CIA told the Seal it was Bin Laden *after* they had all returned to base. The second Seal to break silence had two snaps of a finger to make an ID and pull the trigger, the bullets turning the face into a pile of unrecognizable goo.
Has anyone else considered that this wasn’t an operation to capture Bin Laden, but rather an operation to capture Obama? Anyone?
Obama owed much to the CIA for this operation. The CIA also owned him if they could pull the rug from under his feet at any time and reveal that it was never Bin Laden.
Was it “The Bin Laden Raid” or “The Obama Raid”?
They have already covered their tracks by bringing in to the discource that they shot obama in the face. As the seal said that he shot him in the head and then a bullet in the face. So in ten years if they have to release a photo or two it would be hard to id the subject. Also do not forget the fake photos that were in circulation right after the “raid”. Those photos were on every single media all over the world. I am sure 80% of the people still do not know that those were fake so when they are reading Hersh’s article or heard about it they will have a actual picture of dead Osama in their mind. They are cleaver no doubt and it also proves that real battle is for out mind not for oil or drug.
I believe Mr. Hersh.
Just seen the Frontline piece. Not much on ZDT as such, but more insights into the CIA “enhanced interrogation” program in the Bush years. Worth looking up on Frontline’s website if you haven’t viewed it yet. Sen. Feinstein seemed unusually helpful to the documentary, and exhibited more doubts than ever. Also, Cheney appears to be more of a monster than ever.
After watching the Frontline piece, my guts are in knots(two hours later), not a figure of speech, and also not because of the torture it revealed, rather because of the way the supporters of the program could sit there and so matter of factly approve if someone could legally justify their actions providing them cover. Another thing that was done which tied the knots even tighter was the administration lied to Congress to get them to pass legislation which had provisions that retroactively immunized anyone involved in the torture program. Once again there were arguments that torture woked, attempting to justify the barbarism. That can’t be a consideration, it simply can’t. And if anyone has to ask why it can’t, then you’d never understand the answer.
see
Imperialism and the Politics of Torture
petras.lahaine.org/?p=2018
From the link Vivek Jain posted just below:
“If torture “works” as Brennan claims, then presumably the Senate and the President would approve of its use. The brutalization of human life, of family members and neighbors is not seen as, in principle, evil and morally and politically repugnant.
“According to the explicit rules of conduct of Brennan and the implicit beliefs of the Senate, only “useless” torture is subject to censure – if an address is obtained or a torture victim names a colleague a ‘terrorist’ to avoid further pain, then by the criteria of the Senate Report torture is justified.
“According to the operational code of the CIA, international law and the Geneva Conventions have to be modified: torture should not be universally condemned and its practioners prosecuted. According to the Senate only torture that “doesn’t work” is reprehensible and the best judge of that is the head of the torturers, the CIA director.
“Echoing Brennan, President Obama, leaped to the defense of the CIA, conceding that only some ‘errors’ were committed. Even that mealy mouth admission was forcibly extracted after the President spent several years blocking the investigation and months obstructing its publication and then insisting on heavily editing out some of the most egregious and perverse passages implicating NATO allies”
___________________________________________________________________
How difficult is it, really, to see how these criminals box themselves in and nail down that they are, in fact, criminals? There is no escaping the Fact that these people who are running this country are world renowned criminals of the worst sort.
I watched it and felt mounting disgust and anger with the architects and accomplices who were obviously intent upon covering their asses by professing ignorance regarding the nature of “enhanced interrogation techniques.” Anybody with a heart would know instinctively that such any such endeavor, regardless of legal justifications and fancy names, is immoral and in violation of all universal ethics.
There is no excuse for the authorization or use of such techniques, and I resented the implication and overall tone of the documentary implying that there was actually justification and that some people simply were not properly informed. Bullshit! In my opinion, those congressional representatives that did not vote against legislature providing retroactive immunization for the architects and participants of the torture program, are guilty of collusion and nothing they say; or enact in terms of legislature, can absolve them of their guilt. This was done in violation of International Law and guilty parties can not prevent trial in International courts.
Send them all to the Hague.
So glad this execrable film is being fully exposed.
Peter Maass, rock on.
Oh my, the CIA misinforming the media and the public? With all due sarcasm, isn’t that how a spy agency is supposed to operate? I highly enjoy articles such as this from The Intercept, but let’s really think about this..
Anyone who has taken the time to read the multitude of information available over the years through FOIA, NSC memorandums,etc knows the fictional prowess of the U.S. government and its related organs of death merchants. Our entertainment industry is a vital component of a massive propaganda machinery; able to spin faster and unilaterally more efficiently than most civilizations before. The combination of a horribly uninformed electorate and a military dominated culture make this empire the world’s most dangerous entity. We have deluded ourselves into a numb sense of exceptionalism that is horrifically at odds with our consistent plundering across the globe. And as aptly put by another writer recently in regard to the upcoming farcical election
Most of our political reality now is almost beyond commentary. Its evident evil stands as stark as a naked body unearthed from a mass grave. Yet millions of people will be heatedly engaged in the coming months by the “struggle” over who will temporarily preside over the stinking slaughterhouse of our militarist empire. The mass hallucination — of a rational political system, of our national goodness, of the chance of “reform” if only the right murderer gets into power — will go on.:
Related –
*Why Are We In The Middle East?* Jeff Faux:
“When pressed for more specifics, our governing class offers four rationales for this endless war: 1. Fighting terrorism. 2. Containing Iran. 3. Securing oil. 4. Defending Israel. But when the citizen in whose vital interest the war is supposedly being fought takes a close look, he/she will find that none of these arguments — or all of them together — justifies the terrible cost, or even makes much sense… [the writer at this point examines each claim thoroughly] … But our credibility as a democracy is also at stake. To maintain it, responsible citizens should at least demand clarity about why we are slogging deeper and deeper into this quagmire, putting lives at risk, wasting enormous resources and diverting the attention of the U.S. government from the deterioration of our national economy — the fundamental source of national security. America’s bi-partisan governing class has no intention of opening up their Middle East misadventure to such scrutiny. So it’s up to the citizenry. The 2016 president election campaign will force candidates into forums, town meetings and question-and-answer sessions. It may be the last chance for citizens to pierce the veils of glib rhetoric that hide the reasons our rulers have pushed us into a part of the world where we have no real business and where our presence has only made things worse.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeff-faux/why-are-we-in-the-middle_b_7301370.html
That’s a good article, but you’ll probably agree that the bit I quoted isn’t what will transpire at the formulated and controlled so called town meetings and question-and-answer sessions. That’s why we see situations at such fake, show-forums supposedly for the citizenry basically interrupted by people such as Code Pink and affiliates stand and insist on answers to questions. They are usually shouted down by the very citizenry they are attempting to drag out the answers for. There would be a lot more productive civil disobedience if the citizens themselves weren’t so in awe of their masters that they stupidly shout down anyone who assaults the *Masters with real and meaningful questions when they come face to face the Masters of War who are responsible for the blood letting and cruelty.
Yeah, I linked to the article because it was informative and comprehensive, but when someone says “It’s up to the citizenry, they’re our last hope” I face-palm sadly, knowing the propagandized masses are worse than useless without some passionate anti-establishment direction galvanizing them.
Full disclosure: I feel too often (though in my heart I can’t really accept it) sadly as though few in the general public actually want the truth – as it indicates a spiritual need for focused, mindful thought and strident ethical views rather than lazy drifting, and that pleasure-seeking self-interest in conformism as a ‘philosophy’ has already won the day.
We need to be steps ahead of the corrupt establishment, which means ultimately encouraging in our communities the currently elusive social moral depth in which the proponents of corporatism and militarism can not survive. Thanks for all you do in this regard. Our friends in the duped populace are warped, but most not willingly, deliberately so like the perverted ruling class are – and as frustrating as the masses may be we can hope something somewhere will arouse them to a motivated, greater sense – even if that inspiration ain’t you, me or some article. I believe certain parts of the establishment and much of the general populace are still within the bounds of moral redemption. The elite controlling the establishment seem determined to be resolutely beyond redemption, however, and my compassion for them is almost exhausted.
Keep the faith. I’ll try, too.
Off-topic, but related, and needs to be said:
“On Friday the House passed a massive National Defense Authorization for 2016 that will guarantee US involvement in more wars and overseas interventions for years to come. The Republican majority resorted to trickery to evade the meager spending limitations imposed by the 2011 budget control act – limitations that did not, as often reported, cut military spending but only slowed its growth. But not even slower growth is enough when you have an empire to maintain worldwide, so the House majority slipped into the military spending bill an extra $89 billion for an emergency war fund. Such ’emergency’ spending is not addressed in the growth caps placed on the military under the 2011 budget control act. It is a loophole filled by Congress with Fed-printed money. Ironically, a good deal of this ’emergency’ money will go to President Obama’s war on ISIS even though neither the House nor the Senate has debated – let alone authorized – that war! Although House leadership allowed 135 amendments to the defense bill – with many on minor issues like regulations on fire hoses – an effort by a small group of Representatives to introduce an amendment to debate the current US war in Iraq and Syria was rejected.” (Ron Paul)
More here (please read the whole thing, not very long):
http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2015/may/17/new-military-spending-bill-expands-empire-but-forbids-debate-on-war/
Please don’t forget the Pat Tillman fiasco.
I will be watching that Frontline program tonight on PBS. There’s no expectation of anything resembling a truthful telling though. One can hope, right? Sarcasm alert.
It’s a worthwhile documentary. I think it will be available online soon after it airs, so if you don’t catch it on TV or DVR it, the web should be your friend.
I will also watch that documentary although, PBS rarely gets my attention.
But…there is a bottom line for me in this situation.
According to President Obama “We tortured some folks” but it is nevertheless necessary to move forward as a country. Well I beg to differ.
“We” as in We the People, did not torture “folks”. That would be “They” —– the greedy, self-serving, ego-driven, corrupt, puppet-political representatives occupying high offices in all three branches of the U.S. Federal Government, in conjunction with a multitude of corporate entities, acting on behalf of the International Central Banking Cartel —- colluded to construct, implement, and conduct a “War on Terror” which apparently lead to the illegal torture of some “folks.”
That being the case…”We” have no obligation to share in the blame line; and “We” further DO have an obligation to look back and prosecute those architects of both the “War” and the torture activity, for the crimes committed against humanity in violation of national and international law.
“We tortured some folks” is a lie. They are torturing people today, and TI encourages dozens of full-time Stasi sock puppets with usernames such as Cindy, Kitt, SmedlyButler, and Nate, to wall-paper its comment pages.
Cindy, Kitt, SmedlyButler, and Nate are just a few of the thousands of nasty Little Eichmanns in the employ of the US Torture Bureaucracy. TI is actively collaborating with them, is extremely naive, or both.
Hey Stan, leave me out of your hit list. I am by no means a puppet. Nor do I think is Cindy (just young and longwinded). But you’re right about Nate and Kitt, who play on opposite sides of the same coin, Nate the defender of surveillance and Kitt the kneebiter who keeps conversation away from dangerous topics.
Correct. You’re a pansy.
Incorrect. `Kitt exposes the atrocities committed by our government on a daily basis. Period.
PS – Stan. Fuk’you and your pathetic “I’m being tortured”, hissy fits. Provide evidence to validate your claim(s), or politely piss’off.
SmedleyButler, you gave yourself away when you tried to engage me, then shied away from meeting me personally, at not cost to you, in your city, to verify your sincerity. That was after you made claims about your burning head plus references to some rather exotic weaponry — the NSA hoax intended to keep “folks” confused and dismissive of the fact that yes, Americans do torture Americans right under their noses. (Note the present tense.) Again, I challenge you to meet me in person; prove I’m wrong about you. If I’m wrong, it will benefit both of us. I will check your response after regular business hours.
Of course, obvious card carrying members of the torture bureaucracy — Kitt, SillyPutty, Nate, and suave — are easy to spot. But there are other ‘fake’ targets with more knowledge of the street level — and doctors’ office level — abuses who post here, mixing descriptions of actual torture tactics with obvious BS, with the intent to confuse and deceive targets and readers. They are harder to spot, but of course a experienced target can do it. I may be wrong, Smedley, but for the reasons I mentioned above, I think you’re one of them. And given what I’ve been through, I easily forgive myself for barking at the wrong person now and then because the onus is on “we the people” to prove they are not Little Eichmanns. Why should I be shy of offending Little Eichmanns?
Cindy is so windy and naive she can’t possibly have any other purpose than putting up wall-paper. She spends regular business hours here, and if she’s not a paid member of the bureaucracy then she is an intern, even if she is not aware of it. (And no Cindy, I’m not bashing you for being young. Some young people do have excellent BS detectors; you’re just not one of them.)
The Stasi will corrupt anyone, pay any price, and do anything to support the torture bureaucracy’s #1 priority: hiding routine torture from idiots called “we the people”, who have always made it so easy for them.
And me: Myopic? Yes. Why? Many years of torture may do that to a person. Another reason: my survival instincts are still intact. Sincere? Obviously.
Back to you, SmedleyButler. Meet me soon?
Ooooohhh, dem’s fighting words! You are laughable.
@SmedleyButtplug
No, dipshit, those are dismissing words. Capischi?
Unlike you, I respect the right of people to have their own opinions. In MY mind, you have the right to think as you like and express yourself, as opposed to you and your ilk.
@ Stan & Smedley Butler: If you have a problem with certain commenters on TI, you should address those individuals directly. Leave me and my comments which are made in good faith and represent only my own thoughts; out of your arguments with others.
As far as I’m concerned, the comments section of TI is littered with many insincere commenters and many more commenters that exaggerate their own ego’s at the expense of others. No one is under any obligation to comment at all and that might just be the best remedy to navigating TI articles.
Lyra, you have a point. I was responding to Obama’s disingenuous claim that the torture programs have halted, but went on to criticize TI’s practice of enabling the Stasi on it’s comment pages. What I did not do, directly to you, was point out that your remark: “We” as in We the People, did not torture “folks”, was a personal dodge.
The torture, which always accompanies perpetual war, is on the American People. They voted for it, and will continue to do so.
OK then Stan…
In my view the national elections in the United States are an absolute sham and deception. The candidates are selected by the voodoo Money-masters, not elected by the people. No…the torture is NOT on “We the People” because the question was not, and still has not, been put on a ballot for public vote. The puppet politicians of the US Federal Government would like to share their guilt and blame with the American people but I don’t buy it. That is why it is necessary to look back and hold them accountable for their crimes against humanity.
@Lyra, Re: “the torture is NOT on “We the People”
I disagree, and I am not the only one who disagrees with you on that issue.
@Lyra, I can’t respond anymore today. I don’t get paid for this, unlike the professional wall paper crew assigned to TI’s comment pages.
No problem Stan.
Obviously your busy playing little games of your own.
BTW…If you are a victim of anything it is because you are willing to own the status.
You are what you think you are.
Try thinking outside of the box.
@Lyra, I never said I was a victim. I am a subject, or target. And I am playing a rather serious game: to try to get TI journos to start looking into the Zersetzung and physical torture of US persons. As I’ve said repeatedly, TI has the NSA doc trove, and US torturers are NSA customers. Police departments, the ACLU, and politicians in the US are no help, being too scared, and too supportive and/or corrupted by the American Stasi to give targets the time of day.
Your game is obvious. We The People should always get a free pass, no matter how jingoistic, bloodthirsty, and repetitively foolish… over and over and over again… How many decades do they deserve a free pass before accepting their responsibility as the official endorsers of perpetual war and torture in a democratic society? They voted for W twice, then Obama twice. Then there were the others before them. (I used to be one of the guilty ones. I voted for a Clinton two times.)
And if the US is not a democracy after all, who is responsible for taking so fucking long to get clued up?
I don’t have a game Stan.
You are grossly mistaken if you think that citizen votes matter in a national election. The candidates are selected in advance by the International Central Banking Cartel and their corporate affiliates. Bush and Obama are different sides of the same coin…they are both owned by the same controlling interests and it is the same with any presidential candidates of the Republican or Democratic parties. I repeat, the issue of conducting torture by the US Federal Government was never put on a ballot for a public vote. I sure as shit did not vote for it. Did you? Are you not included in We the People? If you are not part of We the People you are part of the problem Stan.
It is not logical to badger TI journalists in the comments section of articles if you are genuinely looking for assistance with a personal problem. Try sending an email to a specific journalist who is open to leaks and new stories.
The way you are approaching it is too much like trolling and will only irritate people.
Regardless of how you approach your problem, taking an offensive attitude toward me without provocation will certainly not improve your situation.
Do not think that you can antagonize people without someone telling you to get fucked.
In this case, I will.
Lyra, I have written to dozens of reporters. I comment here because TI reporters are not the only who read these comments. TI has held itself out as ‘fearless’ and ‘adversarial,’ and there is some good reporting along with commentary here. But they have not lived up to the promise. Two years after Snowden released trove the eds. are releasing information that borderlines on redundancy. So the NSA sought to crack Google aps — we don’t know this already? Some days I am so grateful for this site; on others, particularly when Mona and Kitt are allowed to attack commenters reporting real offenses, I wonder about Greenwald’s agreements with Omiydar. Most of time I am in agreement with your comments, but if you have no idea what is like to be ‘touchless tortured’ with radio waves and electricity, and to have your phone, computer and social media accounts controlled by the government, then I respectfully ask you to withhold judgment. Have a great day.
@Lrya 21 May 2015 at 1:11 am
This is an American problem, American. You are no innocent bystander, no matter how naive about, and untouched by, We The Peoples’ torture problem you are. In fact, American citizens like you are enablers of torture. Have been for some time, and will be next year.
@Lyra 21 May 2015 at 1:11 am
I too have written a congresscritter, many journos, and even Dr. Chomsky who replied, “Sorry to hear of what you’ve endured, but I can’t do anything. I suggest you talk to the ACLU or Center For Constitutional Rights.”
The ACLU responded to my inquiry: “Do you have an office I can visit, without an appointment, about a subject best not discussed over email?” ACLU reply: “I do not understand your question.”
At least the ACLU replied. The Center For Constitutional Rights did not.
So Lyra, fuck you and so many other mendacious American citizens who go on claiming: “Just following orders.”, “I didn’t know.”, “It’s not my fault.”, “Just bomb ’em.” “Go ahead and torture them… better safe than sorry.”, and other mindless quips by people who vote.
These wars and the torture that comes with the package are on you, Lyra, and probably every other US citizen you know. You offend me. I offend you. We have an understanding.
@NameWithheld 21 May 2015 at 9:48 am
Some days I am so grateful for this site; on others, particularly when Mona and Kitt are allowed to attack commenters reporting real offenses, I wonder about Greenwald’s agreements with Omiydar.
I wonder about Greenwald’s agreements with Omiydar too.
Exposing the routine stalking and torture of innocent US persons would be the biggest story TI’s journalists may ever cover — from an American consumer’s perspective — and they completely ignore it.
Now I need to further qualify that last sentence. For those who have a broader definition of human being than normally found among We The People, exposing routine stalking and torture of dissident US persons would not be more important than exposing the even more brutal torture of Muslims. But routinely stalked and tortured people tend to get a little self-interested after several years of this treatment , as I am. I doubt other tortured people would begrudge me for being selfish about this matter.
We The People are blithely unconcerned about what does not affect them personally — hence the impunity with which the US engages in never ending offensive war and torture — to the point of not even being concerned about whether or not their next door neighbor or even a family member is being routinely stalked and tortured under their noses.
In this matter, TI is being more than a bit too patriotic.
Stan, I never got those supposed tweets from you which raised questions about you. I also was puzzled why you would dissuade any potential whistleblower from contacting Jeff Kaye who is by the far doing more work than any single other person to educate and elucify the topic of torture. It seems to me that anyone being tortured would advocate for a whistleblower to take the evidence to Mr. Kaye.
I will send another tweet now, and you should know who it’s from. We can go from there.
I was flippantly dissuading people from contacting JK because he seemed overworked, and left me the impression he had made a career move. My mistake… a bad thing to say to any target trying to contact an expert on US torture and its history. A terrible thing to say.
Sorry, JK, and any target looking for relief while trying to avoid the Stasi run “help groups”.
He was very kind to me, and I wish anyone in similar circumstances can get some of his insight.
I sent you two more about 25m ago, and they are still being blocked or deleted from your page. I’ll check back later.
My Twitter as my phone and computer are completely in control of govt. They block followers and callers. Yesterday a realtor called my line and instead of getting answering machine was asked what her zip code was.
I published my number here twice: 773-412-5326. Good luck getting through.
I sent you three messages last night. None got through.
I just called you, and the answer was a recorded message: “Please enter area code and phone number.”
Called a second time… recorded message was “######## is not available”. I did not leave a message.
I’ll keep trying.
Free country my ass. (I shouldn’t mention my ass, because Stasi vermin love my ass.)
Growing up in the ’50s and ’60s, there was a steady fare of war movies on TV and in theaters, some of which were outright propaganda, and most of the rest ostensibly presented as entertainment were propaganda nonetheless. There were directors enlisted along with several “stars”** in the making of films, in the military and for the military, to promote the “War Effort”. If my memory serves, there was the series “Why We Fight” as an example. The only difference between then and now, is the production value has increased significantly, along with budgets, and it wasn’t a secret back then. It would be interesting to know how much tax money is being spent by the CIA on the present batch of propaganda films, but since everything the government, and especially the CIA does is classified, it’s doubtful that info is forthcoming. Another great article, Peter. Thanks.
**=stars…I loathe that self-promoting term
Thanks. I think the key thing the CIA offers is access and information (disinformation) rather than money.
I’ll reserve judgement on that. You’re only 8 years my junior, so I know you’ve seen many misadventures funded by the CIA, unless you were in a coma. Some of which were revealed only years or even decades later. You are by virtue of your chosen profession more “in the know” than I could hope to be, so, for now I’ll defer to your judgement. Thanks for your reply.
The CIA has a long history of running illegal ventures to raise money for dirty tricks; http://www.skepticfiles.org/socialis/nuganhan.htm.
The simple question that should be asked to the US government and CIA is…if it’s OK to torture and humiliate Arabs, Muslims, and non Americans…is it OK to do the same when Americans are captured but OTHER nations?
This seems an apt moment to remind everyone of what the godfather of neoconservatism, Irving Kristol, felt about “truth.”
Mona, thank you.
Small, esoteric point to add here, but even seeing the name “Irving Kristol” makes me want to slam my head into a wall.
Irving Kristol is the piece of shit who, among other gems, said he didn’t believe that Jacobo Timerman was ever really tortured…
Fuck it. It’s an old memory. But it still blows me away and always will: the capacity for not just cruelty, but coldness and detachment.
Both the official government and Mr. Hersh’s narrative regarding the so-called assassination of Osama Bin Laden impress me as lies or more lies to cover lies.
I don’t believe either one.
The following impresses me as a much more realistic analysis of what the public does not know regarding this farce.
“Bin Laden: What Do We Really Know?”
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article41877.htm
Snip: [“On May 2, 2011, our government decided, finally, to kill off the Bin Laden apparition. Since the United States had supposedly been after him since 1998, you would think they’d hang on to their man a bit longer after they got him, if they got him, but within hours of finding her public enemy number one, America got rid of Bin Laden!
Hey, if you can’t show me something, maybe you don’t have it, especially since you are a chronic liar and in the cloak and dagger business. For most English-language trials since the disappearance of William Harrison in 1660, there has been the principle of no corpse, no murder, but here you actually have an open admission of murder, widely broadcast, but no corpse, which is tantamount to destruction of evidence, whatever it was.
So the CIA is basically saying to us, The dog ate my cadaver. Frankly, this farce was so crudely put together, the explanation so ridiculous, that our overlords must think most of us are morons, brainwashed as we are by cradle-to-grave propaganda delivered via print or pixels. I hate to think they might be right.'”]
Excellent link, thank you.
My pleasure Marc.
Our overlords Know the populace are morons, brainwashed with cradle to grave propaganda. How else can steel buildings turn to dust and everyone shrugs and believes office fires melt steel and concrete when they know that is physically impossible but buy the myth anyway and attack anyone who brings up this fact. I wish just one publication would come clean, let the cat out of the bag and call a spade a spade.
darn! I hate it when someone says it better than I can! very erudite comment and excellent links.
absolutely correct.
And I hate to think you are right about the public as morons….but they appear to very gullible/ or wish to remain willfully ignorant. The concept of Cognitive Dissonance comes to mind.
I sincerely hope that the Frontline (financed and principally controlled by the Koch brothers, they finance 93% of the WGBH Educational Foundation which owns PBS, Frontline, The Takeaway and PRI — which provides the majority of content for NPR network) documentary is on the level.
What should it tell us? That the Senate’s summary on the still-classified CIA torture report — together with FirstLook and Jane Mayer’s reportage — that the CIA’s Alfreda Bikowsky Silverstein was the individual who ordered that the certain information not be passed along to the FBI, nor anyone else, said information being that the terrorists involved with the bombings of the two US embassies in Africa, and the attack on the USS Cole, were moving about freely in America. (Now, these males were later among the 19 hijackers on 9/11/01, and some in the US Congress, and I believe various stooges like Peter Bergen, have argued that al Qaeda was so adaptive, it would not have mattered whether they were picked up or not — but since they had already killed many in their multiple acts of terrorism, that wasn’t they point — the CIA screwed the pooch royally and someone should have borne responsibility, instead Alfreda Bikowsky Silverstein was promoted again and again, falsely portrayed in that Zero Dork Thirty movie, and would later knowingly order the torture of innocents to extract false confessions!)
That is what should appear on that Frontline documentary if it is honest.
Got a source for this 93% claim?
I also would like to see the source for that, if there is one. Seems way off the charts
I’m not good at reading US financial statements for a foundations maybe someone else? http://www.wgbh.org/UserFiles/File/WGBH_FY14_Consolidated_financial_Statement.pdf
At the end of every Frontline broadcast they list the contributors, in typical PBS fashion. The Koch Brothers, Koch Industries, the Koch Foundation – none of these are listed. Much if not most of the Koch money to PBS goes into the perversion of science – which is why they are listed as sponsors of Nova, the former science program.
As far as I am concerned, Frontline is the last good series on PBS. It is in an entirely different league from their we-too-are-mainstream-media news offerings.
They generally do very solid work.
If movies like ZDT, which purport to capture historic national security and military events, are dangerous and damaging, then they’re particularly so when the audience is a gullible American public that lusts for war in the first place.
And most Americans (or Ameritards) still can’t connect the two most obvious dots: Alfreda Bikowsky Silverstein’s (CIA) knowingly ordering the torture of innocents to extract false confessions, and the mission (if Sy Hersh is correct) to silence Osama bin Laden (not capture, but silence).
Silencing and false confessions — that is only done to cover up and hide the truth, and guilty systems recognize no innocents!
To believe that the “team behind” ZDT was conned by the CIA, once must believe the ZDT team sought the truth. Not to say the CIA didn’t lie, or that the ZDT team knew they were being lied to, just to say that it’s likely the truth of the events were never an issue for either side.
Truth is the first and constant causally of war.
Great work Peter. Glad to see the Jessica Lynch lie-fest mentioned, but would like to have seen a reference to the Pat Tillman story as well. I trust absolutely nothing I hear from the US military, intelligence community and government. It isn’t all lies of course, but they have only themselves to blame for the fact that thinking people do not trust them.
Good point, I should have mentioned the Tillman story too.
The thing about both of those phony stories in their original government altered drafts — Jessica Lynch and Pat Tillman — is that they are both laughably ludicrous ‘B Grade’ script writing on the level of ’50’s TV shows such as Roy Rogers, The Lone Ranger, Hopalong Cassidy and the like. John Brennan’s story line about Bin Laden cowering behind his wife was equally ludicrous. How a grown man can step up to a battery of microphones and cameras, putting his already tattered to pieces reputation on the line as Brennan did telling that story was disturbing, because it was so obvious that he was lying. But then that same reputation tattered liar also told the world that not one single civilian human being had been killed in one of the many, many drone strikes that he was more than partially responsible for. But of course the POTUS, Obama, continues to have ‘full confidence’ in John Brennan.
The people running this country are extremely, filthy rich and they have no scruples, and they have no respect for the truth or for the people they tell their nonstop lies to.
“You don’t have to believe everything Hersh wrote — and I don’t, including the reference to SEAL team members throwing some of bin Laden’s corpse over the Hindu Kush . . .”
Why is that – of all the particulars – so hard to believe and needed to be separated?
Sourcing was thin and the relevant paragraph said Osama’s corpse had been put into a body bag. So in flight the bag was opened and parts of it thrown out the door? Stranger things have happened, of course, but it struck me as improbable. That’s all.
blockquote>Truth would quickly cease to be stranger than fiction, once we got as used to it.
H.L. MenckenAbbottabad is about a 1000 miles from the Arabian Sea – all through Pakistani territory – but is close to the Afghan border, about 150 miles. Would they have flown all that way just to give UBL his burial at sea? Or would the pilot just have headed back to where he started from at the Bagram Air Force Base in Afghanistan and dumped the body as they crossed over the mountains? Personally, I would have taken the shortest route out, with all due respect to UBL.
Thanks, Benito. I never thought about the Geography in the story, and that’s one of my favorite subjects. Gotta go check my maps.
You’re talking the navy seals here, that doesn’t sound improbable at all. Remember they “kick your ass and take your gas” so I’d say that was one of the more believable things Hersh wrote and everything he wrote WAS believable.
The official story was he was thrown off the ship and buried at sea as a muslim tradition. And No shipmen were present when this happened, and no pictures taken.
Makes Bigalow look like a dupe, and sets back Hollywood equality for women at key time.
On the contrary, the government lies to protect us. Because we can’t handle the truth. Alright, maybe some can, but for the rest there will always be the Hollywood version of reality. Everyone ultimately believes what they want to believe, and Hollywood just makes that process easier. America’s greatness is limited only by the imagination of its film-makers.
And that’s what worries me. What sort of director, when creating a propaganda piece, says I want to promote CIA torture? At one time, the US had bigger dreams and I fear its declining aspirations are a harbinger of things to come. Surely a propaganda film should attempt to aim a little higher?
These days Hollywood hires hacks. Today’s Leni Riefenstahls are working in web design or cutting-edge media.
Come on, il Duce, you know it is all about money. Hollywood has never allowed the truth come between it and a good box office.
Good propaganda is always popular. Hollywood’s innovation was to charge people for it. Just as the Tech companies charge people to be spied on. A totalitarian state does not come cheap.
American Sniper is much better propaganda than Zero Dark Thirty – as can be seen from the box office (although it can be independently demonstrated in many other ways as well).
Bennie, I wish you wouldn’t talk serious in the letters section. You scare the hell out of me when you do it.
Thank you for this hindsight. Things are always clearer after a time. I would be remiss if I didn’t admit that I have the same misgivings and skepticism about Scahill’s piece today on al Shabaab. Can’t help wonder: who is that inside source, and what is his or her’s motivation for speaking?