Two years ago, the first story based on the Snowden archive was published in The Guardian, revealing a program of domestic mass surveillance, which, at least in its original form, ended this week. To commemorate that anniversary, Edward Snowden himself reflected in a New York Times op-ed on the “power of an informed public” when it comes to the worldwide debate over surveillance and privacy.
But we realized from the start that the debate provoked by these disclosures would be at least as much about journalism as privacy or state secrecy. And that was a debate we not only anticipated but actively sought, one that would examine the role journalism ought to play in a democracy and the proper relationship of journalists to those who wield the greatest political and economic power.
That debate definitely happened, not just in the U.S. but around the world. And it was revealing in all sorts of ways. In fact, of all the revelations over the last two years, one of the most illuminating and stunning — at least for me — has been the reaction of many in the American media to Edward Snowden as a source.
When it comes to taking the lead in advocating for the criminalization of leaking and demanding the lengthy imprisonment of our source, it hasn’t been the U.S. government performing that role, but rather — just as was the case for WikiLeaks disclosures — those who call themselves “journalists.” Just think about what an amazing feat of propaganda that is, one of which most governments could only dream: Let’s try to get journalists themselves to take the lead in demonizing whistleblowers and arguing that sources should be imprisoned! As much of an authoritarian pipe dream as that may seem to be, that is exactly what happened during the Snowden debate. As Digby put it yesterday:
It remains to be seen if more members of the mainstream press will take its obligations seriously in the future. When the Snowden revelations came to light two years ago it was a very revealing moment. Let’s just say that we got a good look at people’s instincts. I know I’ll never forget what I saw.
So many journalists were furious about the revelations, and were demanding prosecution for them, that there should have been a club created called Journalists Against Transparency or Journalists for State Secrecy and it would have been highly populated. They weren’t even embarrassed about it. There was no pretense, no notion that those who want to be regarded as “journalists” should at least pretend to favor transparency, disclosures and sources. They were unabashed about their mentality that so identifies with and is subservient to the National Security State that they view controversies exactly the same way as those officials: Someone who reveals information that the state has deemed should be secret belongs in prison — at least when those revelations reflect poorly on top U.S. officials.
The reaction of American journalists was not monolithic. Large numbers of them expressed support for the revelations and for Snowden himself. Two of the most influential papers, the New York Times and the Washington Post, themselves published Snowden documents (including, ironically, most of the stories which Snowden critics typically cite as ones that should not have been published). In the wake of a court ruling finding the domestic mass surveillance program likely unconstitutional, the New York Times editorial page argued that Snowden should be given clemency. Journalists awarded the Snowden-based reporting the Pulitzer, the Polk and most other journalism awards. So there was plenty of journalistic support for the disclosures, for journalism. Many have recently come around for the first time to advocating that Snowden should not face prosecution.
But huge numbers of journalists went on the warpath against transparency. The Democrats’ favorite “legal analyst,” Jeffrey Toobin, repeatedly took to the airwaves of CNN and the pages of The New Yorker to vilify Snowden. The NSA whistleblower was so repeatedly and viciously maligned by MSNBC hosts such as Melissa Harris-Perry, Ed Schultz, Joy Ann Reid and Lawrence O’Donnell that one would have thought he had desecrated an Obama shrine (had Snowden leaked during a GOP presidency, of course, MSNBC personalities would have erected a life-sized statue of him outside of 30 Rock). People like Bob Schieffer and David Brooks, within days of learning his name, purported to psychoanalyze him in the most banal yet demeaning ways. And national security journalists frozen out of the story continuously tried to insinuate themselves by speaking up in favor of state secrecy and arguing that Snowden should be imprisoned.
I hadn’t intended to use the two-year anniversary to write about these media issues — until I read the editorial this week from the Los Angeles Times demanding that Snowden return to the U.S. and be prosecuted for his transparency crimes. Isn’t it extraordinary that people who want to be regarded as journalists would write an editorial calling for the criminal prosecution of a key source? Principles aside: Just on grounds of self-interest, wouldn’t you think they’d want to avoid telling future sources that the Los Angeles Times believes leaking is criminal and those who do it belong in prison?
The LAT editors began by acknowledging that Snowden, not President Obama, is “the ultimate author” of the so-called surveillance reform enacted into law. They also acknowledge that “the American people have Snowden to thank for these reforms.”
Despite that, they are opposed to a pardon or to clemency. While generously conceding that Snowden has “a strong argument for leniency,” they nonetheless insist that “in a society of laws, someone who engages in civil disobedience in a higher cause should be prepared to accept the consequences.”
I see this argument often and it’s hard to overstate how foul it is. To begin with, if someone really believes that, they should be demanding the imprisonment of every person who ever leaks information deemed “classified,” since it’s an argument that demands the prosecution of anyone who breaks the law, or at least “consequences” for them. That would mean dragging virtually all of Washington, which leaks constantly and daily, into a criminal court — to say nothing of their other crimes such as torture. But of course, such high-minded media lectures about the “rule of law” are applied only to those who are averse to Washington’s halls of power, not to those who run them.
More important, Snowden was “prepared to accept the consequences.” When he decided to blow the whistle, he knew that there was a very high risk that he’d end up in a U.S. prison for decades — we thought that’d be the most likely outcome — and yet he did it anyway. He knowingly took that risk. And even now, he has given up his family, his home, his career and his ability to travel freely — hardly someone free of “consequences.”
But that doesn’t mean he has to meekly crawl to American authorities with his wrists extended and politely ask to be put in a cage for 30 years, almost certainly in some inhumane level of penal oppression typically reserved for Muslims and those accused of national security crimes. The idea that anyone who breaks an unjust law has a moral obligation to submit to an unjust penal state and accept lengthy imprisonment is noxious and authoritarian.
Without making any comparisons but instead just to illustrate the principle involved: Anyone decent regards Nelson Mandela as a heroic moral actor, but he didn’t submissively turn himself into the South African government in order to be imprisoned. Instead, he avoided capture and prison for as long as he could by evading arrest and remaining a fugitive (and was captured only when the CIA, which regarded him as a “terrorist,” helped its apartheid allies find and apprehend him).
Third, anyone who has even casually watched the post-9/11 American judicial system knows what an absurdity it is to claim that Snowden would receive a fair trial. He’s barred under the Espionage Act even from arguing that his leaks were justified; he wouldn’t be permitted to utter a word about that. The American judiciary has been almost uniformly subservient to the U.S. government in national security prosecutions. And the series of laws that has been enacted in the name of terrorism almost guarantee conviction in such cases. That’s why, early on, Daniel Ellsberg wrote an op-ed arguing that Snowden absolutely did the right thing in leaving the U.S.:
Many people compare Edward Snowden to me unfavorably for leaving the country and seeking asylum, rather than facing trial as I did. I don’t agree. The country I stayed in was a different America, a long time ago. . . .
Snowden believes that he has done nothing wrong. I agree wholeheartedly. . . . I hope Snowden’s revelations will spark a movement to rescue our democracy, but he could not be part of that movement had he stayed here. There is zero chance that he would be allowed out on bail if he returned now and close to no chance that, had he not left the country, he would have been granted bail. Instead, he would be in a prison cell like [Chelsea] Manning, incommunicado.
He would almost certainly be confined in total isolation, even longer than the more than eight months Manning suffered during [her] three years of imprisonment before [her] trial began recently. . . . Nothing worthwhile would be served, in my opinion, by Snowden voluntarily surrendering to U.S. authorities given the current state of the law.
Fourth, and most revealing, the LA Times itself constantly publishes illegal leaks, though the ones it publishes usually come from top government officials. Indeed, for years it employed a national security report, Ken Dilanian, who specializes in stenographically disseminating the pro-government claims that government officials want him to convey (and, totally unsurprisingly, Dilanian himself became one of the leading journalistic opponents of the Snowden disclosures, and, now with AP, this week was bemoaning that Snowden made Americans aware of so much about what their government has been doing to the Internet).
Do you think the LA Times editors would ever demand the imprisonment of high-level D.C. leakers by sanctimoniously arguing that “in a society of laws, someone who engages in civil disobedience in a higher cause should be prepared to accept the consequences”? Have the LA Times editors called for the criminal prosecution of Leon Panetta, and John Brennan, and the endless number of senior officials who leak not (as Snowden did) to inform the public but in order to propagandize them?
Of course not, and therein lies the key media lesson from all of this. These journalists are literally agents of political power. Just as countless journalists demanded Snowden’s imprisonment while never uttering the same about James Clapper or David Petraeus, the LA Times editors want Snowden imprisoned, but not the leakers whose leaks make the U.S. government look good, much of which gets laundered in that particular paper. Manifestly, the LAT editors don’t believe in the rule of law or the need to punish leaks or any other pretty, high-minded concepts they’re invoking here; they believe in the need to punish those whose leaks embarrass or are adverse to political power: the very function journalists love to claim they themselves perform.
The other rationale cited by the LA Times editors for Snowden’s imprisonment is that “Snowden didn’t limit his disclosures to information about violations of Americans’ privacy,” but rather “divulged other sensitive information about traditional foreign intelligence activities.”
The LA Times editors apparently believe that only the privacy of Americans, but not the 95 percent of the planet called “non-Americans,” is valuable and newsworthy. Therefore, any disclosures that don’t directly affect violations of the rights of Americans is immoral and criminal and deserves prison time. Spying on entire populations in Europe, or Latin America, or Asia? On foreign companies? On human rights organizations and climate change conferences? Not only is that valid in the eyes of the LA Times editors, but it should be criminal even to reveal it. Is any work needed to explain why this mentality is jingoistic and myopic in the extreme, let alone the very opposite of journalism?
What a bizarre notion for a journalist to adopt the view that only the rights of Americans matter. Does that mean the LA Times editors favor the imprisonment of those who exposed the Abu Grahib abuses, since none of those detainees were American? Or the CIA black sites that only abused irrelevant non-Americans? Should leaks of classified information about civilian deaths by drones be punished with imprisonment, since none of the victims are sacred Americans but rather part of the irrelevant, rights-free group called non-Americans?
Yes, part of Snowden’s disclosures were about mass surveillance aimed at other populations because the Internet is global (there is no such thing as the American Internet) and because mass surveillance is inherently wrong, or at least certainly newsworthy. As Snowden himself put it in June 2013 when asked about this: “Suspicionless surveillance does not become okay simply because it’s only victimizing 95% of the world instead of 100%.” To argue that the only newsworthy abuses are the ones that victimize Americans is grotesque, though also quite a common view among the super-patriots in American journalism (the same uber-nationalists who regard themselves as “objective”).
Beyond that, as I’ve detailed many times, the decision to publish particular documents was always made by media outlets, and never by Snowden himself. Snowden has explained repeatedly that — just as Daniel Ellsberg did with the Pentagon Papers — he relied on journalists to make decisions about which stories were and were not in the public interest (see this compilation of Snowden’s comments over the last two years on this and many other topics). So if the LA Times editors are angry about particular news stories, they should have the courage to direct that anger at their colleagues who chose to publish them, not use those stories to argue for the imprisonment of the source.
Snowden’s whistleblowing has led to many extraordinary revelations. None is more significant or more revealing than what it highlighted about the function many American journalists actually perform, and how far away that is — universes away — from the way they market their function.
Photo Illustration:Connie Yu; Whistle: Shutterstock
Journalists ………good with words………terrible with ideas.
The most absurd response to Snowden’s disclosures, I think, came from the Washington Post, itself a publisher of Snowden’s disclosures. In a July 1, 2013 editorial, the Post’s editorial board stated that “the first U.S. priority should be to prevent Mr. Snowden from leaking information that harms efforts to fight terrorism and conduct legitimate intelligence operations.” The Post did not say how that might be accomplished; but since Snowden was then in Russia, the US could do little to stop him short of attempting a clandestine assassination. “The best solution for both Mr. Snowden and the Obama administration,” the board wrote, “would be his surrender to U.S. authorities, followed by a plea negotiation.” The editorial demanding an extreme form of prior restraint was deeply ironic, coming from the newspaper that flouted the government’s injunction against publication of the Pentagon Papers. Link: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/02/washington-post-edward-snowden-editorial_n_3535146.html
“a program of domestic mass surveillance, which, at least in its original form, ended this week. ”
What sort of moron believes that for a moment?
The Snowden revelations have resulted in
1. A quick kerfuffle of outrage from a tiny percentage of the spied upon.
2. The inevitable outpouring of fear-porn from the left/right big statists.
3. Kabuki theatre shows of reform
4. he resumption of business as usual, but now it’s known about, accepted and legal.
Why, one might almost think it was planned that way.
Where is my comment?
If you include more than one link in a comment, it takes much longer for it to appear.
Thanks Liberalrob for your explanation.
Thank you Glenn for this article!
It is a big concern in France with a Bill that will give surveillance agencies powers which are clear threat to confidentiality of journalist’s sources.
http://en.rsf.org/france-human-rights-organisations-alarmed-25-03-2015,47728.html
2 years ago, one of the braves left us ! Michael Hasting was a true journalist
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-runaway-general-20100622
Without a doubt the Times is Corp & Government fed propaganda!
Just the name Snowden makes them angry.
I posted this article to FB and only ONE of my *journalist* “friends” “liked” it. It made me wonder. There’s nothing that sucks more than wondering why people who seem otherwise good and reasonable, could display such apathy on such an important topic. The silence is deafening.
Well, yes Mr Greenwald, Poitras and other dissident sections of journalists would have been arrested for supporting terrorism if there was not a critical mass anymore. It did come close to it before taking a different turn. The problem with “1984 Big brother” is that it creeps upon us slowly and steady with the rise of computer technology. I don’t see how this ongoing socialized loss of privacy can ever get in a reversed trend again.
Where in history did humanity show sustaining times of morality and wisdom? Who has doubts that when all country’s can get hands on the same technical surveillance abilities as the NSA is reported to have, they are not going to use that for population control.
Imagine almost anybody can/could be blackmailed by governments and dictators in power, in the country they happen to live in. To me it is not a question if but when that is gonna happen openly. But maybe we get hit by other more serious disasters before. Science fiction as a genre surely is dead.
Hi Johan,
Like you I feel concern about new technologies as well but not the same way you put it. It seems to say, all is lost!
Privacy laws have been voted precisely to protect us from this phenomenon. Samuel D. Warren an Louis D. Brandeis already had and gave us a good understanding of the impact of industry in 1890 with the “Right to privacy”. Memory of human history is short but new technologies follow the same path, they are only tools which are able to invade our privacy like industry did with personal photo or video devices for examples.
“Where in history did humanity show sustaining times of morality and wisdom? ”
Some times…In XIX century, when freedom concept has eventually been applied to every human being with the abolition of slavery,
When women and black people were allowed to express their opinion via the right to vote, when children got their rights as human beings recognized…
“Who has doubts that when all country’s can get hands on the same technical surveillance abilities as the NSA is reported to have, they are not going to use that for population control”
No doubt at all but not a reason to let them do it!
“To me it is not a quesion if but when that is gonna happen openly” (blackmailed by gov & dictators)
To me, the question is what we are doing now to avoid this to happen?
http://faculty.uml.edu/sgallagher/Brandeisprivacy.htm
Urrrr, did I fall into a time warp. Here’s an article by Fred Kaplan (June 8 2015 6:11 PM) claiming that:
Slate -”The key difference is that PRISM has been a far more effective intelligence tool. Obama’s independent commission—the same body that refuted official claims about telephone metadata’s usefulness—concluded that PRISM had played an important role in stopping 53 terrorist plots.”
slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/war_stories/2015/06/the_national_security_agency_s_surveillance_and_the_usa_freedom_act_the.1.html
Is Kaplan referring to this:
– “Obama trumpeted the effectiveness of the programme claiming it had disrupted “at least 50 threats not just in America but here in Germany.”
This has already been called into question by Democratic senator Ron Wyden who argues the thwarted plots were actually stopped using information gleaned from other surveillance methods.”
huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/06/19/prism-obama-germany-merkel_n_3464613.html
The (54) event claim was debunked, like months, no, years, ago. As were the claim that thirteen events were stopped, until what remains is something about a cab driver wiring money abroad:
-”Note the all important “and other NSA programs” language here. Also the use of “terrorist events” not plots. And, remember, those “thirteen events… in the U.S. homeland,” have since been whittled down to only one that actually relied on the call records program that she’s defending — and that wasn’t a terrorist plot but a cab driver in San Diego sending some cash to a Somali group judged to be a terrorist organization. “
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20131014/12095624868/dianne-feinstein-plays-911-card-why-nsa-should-keep-spying-every-american.shtml
Media Lessons From the Global War on Terror*.
*including media lessons from Afghanistan and Iraq wars.
Oh and the McKinney pool party, I didn’t realize that it was the same guy, Casebolt who does that action figure roll on the ground at the beginning of the video, as if he thinks he is dodging bullets at the Normandy invasion. Apparently Casebolt is a “training officer” so we may be seeing more of this.
– ““I’ve never seen a cop run through a frame and do a little parkour somersault in the manner that he did,” Stewart said. “That was some Starsky and Hutch sh*t.””
http://www.rawstory.com/2015/06/jon-stewart-blasts-ashole-mckinney-cop-how-do-you-go-from-a-pool-party-to-this/
I love the way the fat white guy is helping the police, as well, maybe he can get a deputy badge or something, meanwhile here is a creative alternative for the McKinney neighbourhood, the next time they feel “outnumbered” by blacks in swim trunks:
Landlord Provides Creative Excuses For ‘Whites Only’ Pool Sign
http://gawker.com/5868488/landlord-provides-creative-excuses-for-whites-only-pool-sign
Wow, help me get my head around this. One of America’s supreme court judges, Scalia, thinks there is nothing wrong with executing innocent people, as long as they get a fair trial.
– Scalia – “[t]his court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is ‘actually’ innocent.”
Myself, I wouldn’t say there is something wrong with the US constitution, I’d say that Scalia is an idiot if he needs it to say explicitly in his constitution, that, …
Constitution writers – “OH, Scalia, if you are reading this, hundreds of years after we write this constitution, in the future, and you are a judge, and you are a complete idiot who needs it spelled out for you, here it is: executing innocent people is wrong”
– “Scalia’s perfect capital-punishment case falls apart
A little over two decades ago, Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia was dismissive of then-Justice Harry Blackmun’s concerns about the death penalty. In fact, Scalia had a case study in mind that demonstrated exactly why the system of capital punishment has value.
…If this story sounds at all familiar, it was last fall when a judge ordered the men released. The confessions appeared to have been coerced 30 years ago and new DNA evidence implicated another man whose possible involvement had been overlooked at the time.”
http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/scalias-perfect-capital-punishment-case-falls-apart?cid=sm_fb_maddow
The Los Angeles Times editorials never go to press in the absence of corporate approval. This is especially true in the American press, where the movers and shakers (the molders of public opinion) are shielded by corporate holding companies and legions of attorneys.
Publishing is; in the final analysis – business, big business … and in this regard, editorial opinion is that, just opinion – with about the same gravitas as a used car commercial. Bank on it.
Hi Donald and everyone (if anyone gets to read this :-)
You’re absolutely right. And I might add this note: saw Chris on Tavis Smiley this week and one point he made was that although we’ve seen media “consolidation” before, it’s different now. He said news media in particular have to compete with other branches of these large corporations. Profitability is as you say, their only bottom line.
Why we keep accepting this, I don’t know…
Bravo! It needed to be said. Importantly, the propagandistic culpability of the American government and its lackey, American journalism, can’t be said often enough.
Brilliant and spot on, Glenn. Most journalists are not advocacy journalists anymore. They worry about whether they’ll have their front row seat at the White House propaganda briefings and where in-line their question will be. Few have the courage to speak up but then when we consider who owns the media they work for, well, they worry about keeping their job rather than doing their job. When we see what is happening with Russia, the US backed coup in Ukraine, ‘F the EU, Victoria Nuland’s remarks before her corporate supporters in Kiev about the $5 billion the US has invested in the ‘future of Ukrainians’, as the IMF coerces the gas subsidy cuts to the workers there, it’s apparent that all you need to have to dominate the World is the three Ms- money, (the US owns a press), the media, all bought and paid for, and the military, the biggest in the World, no coincidence. Keep hammering them, and thank Edward Snowden for me. Many Americans believe he’s a hero and appreciate the work you do; giving a voice to those that can’t find their own. Americans are just clearing their throats and listening.
Hear, hear!
These Editors, are a disgrace to their profession.
Journalists are no more morally defensible than politicians or lawyers.
It must be “laundry day” behind the facades of the biggest Potemkin Village the media has ever built.
C’mon now…we passed April Fool’s Day over two months ago! What did these LA Times editors REALLY say?
…“in a society of laws, someone who engages in civil disobedience in a higher cause should be prepared to accept the consequences.” Southern plantation owners used the same argument to demand the return of escaped slaves.
Great summary of the state of the corporate/media machine. Best of luck on this enterprise…may a thousand INTERCEPTs bloom. Peace
Remember when after the lies of the Vietnam/Cambodia/Laos wars, the US government, for many years, said they would no longer be in the business of counting the number of enemy dead? Well look at this recent article…
-”Over 10,000 ISIS fighters killed in 9 months of US-led air strikes, US official says”
christiantoday.com/article/over.10000.isis.fighters.killed.in.9.months.of.us.led.air.strikes.us.official.says/55625.htm
Now just like all the other lessons we thought the Americans had learned, things under Bush began to revert, as in this discussion about “perceptual dominance” over the Afghan war…
-”Should the Military Return to Counting Bodies?
“As long as the enemy has free rein to count American bodies and we don’t have free rein to count enemy bodies, then the enemy is going to gain a perceptual advantage, which in this new era of war is all that counts,” Scales says. Accurate U.S. reporting of Taliban fighters killed “strikes at the core of the enemy’s perceptual dominance,” he says. All of a sudden, Scales suggests, the Taliban may no longer be sure that God is on their side. “That’s an essential argument in an Islamist country,” he adds, “and they may start to question the whole theocratic underpinnings of their movement.” That’s assuming people in Afghanistan will believe what they’re being told by a foreign army. And that the return of body counts doesn’t have the opposite effect, causing Americans to begin questioning the underpinnings of a war that has lasted for nearly a decade of inconclusive combat and resulted in nearly 700 U.S. deaths.”
http://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1902274,00.html
Apparently, it’s all about “shaping perceptions”, i.e., propaganda. So, why is propaganda appearing in the “free” press?
The US Congress let expire a law prohibiting the distribution of propaganda directed at the domestic, civilian population.
citation:
U.S. Repeals Propaganda Ban, Spreads Government-Made News To Americans
“But if anyone needed a reminder of the dangers of domestic propaganda efforts, the past 12 months provided ample reasons. Last year, two USA Today journalists were ensnared in a propaganda campaign after reporting about millions of dollars in back taxes owed by the Pentagon’s top propaganda contractor in Afghanistan. Eventually, one of the co-owners of the firm confessed to creating phony websites and Twitter accounts to smear the journalists anonymously. Additionally, just this month, The Washington Post exposed a counter propaganda program by the Pentagon that recommended posting comments on a U.S. website run by a Somali expat with readers opposing Al-Shabaab. “Today, the military is more focused on manipulating news and commentary on the Internet, especially social media, by posting material and images without necessarily claiming ownership,” reported The Post.
But for BBG officials, the references to Pentagon propaganda efforts are nauseating, particularly because the Smith-Mundt Act never had anything to do with regulating the Pentagon, a fact that was misunderstood in media reports in the run-up to the passage of new Smith-Mundt reforms in January.
http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2013/07/12/us_backs_off_propaganda_ban_spreads_government_made_news_to_americans
Somali American caught up in a shadowy Pentagon counterpropaganda campaign
http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-07-07/world/40427705_1_web-site-military-contractor-propaganda
“With the Iraq war over and U.S. combat operations scheduled to finish in Afghanistan by the end of next year, however, the Pentagon has begun shifting psy-ops missions to other parts of the world to influence popular opinion. Many of the missions are overseen by the Special Operations Command, which plays a leading role in global counterterrorism efforts.
In the past, psychological operations usually meant dropping leaflets or broadcasting propaganda on the battlefield. Today, the military is more focused on manipulating news and commentary on the Internet, especially social media, by posting material and images without necessarily claiming ownership.”
They are just exercising their “freedom of speech”, “freedom of association” and “freedom of the press” in “‘the’ land of ‘the’ free” in a “responsible” way, aren’t they?
What are they talking about it is KGB owned Russian media which would do such thing. Come on that would be “Unamerican”!
JAT, it even sounds cool!
But, then again, I have a question: there may be honest journalists as there may be honest lawyers, but when has journalism been about transparency, actually informing people?
Even TI to some extent sins in their same ways. To some important extent TI play their “responsible journalism” game. As John Oliver magistrally showed us, we have to talk to people in ways that they can understand in their true dimension and in their own terms. TI bs people too much with “this and that gossip” and “take it down from us” way in which interacts with people. What about showing pictures or media feeds of Michelle fingering his husbands @ss? I am sure TI has such “embarrassing” footage, but you don’t make them public because you are being “responsible”. As the Spanish saying goes: “Caga la reina y caga la aldeana” (The Queen sh!ts exactly as the village girl does)
I am with Assange when he says his job is not judging politicians when he founds things he thinks are wrong, but making thousand of copies to make sure they reach the people out there. so they can judge for themselves and arrive at their own conclusions.
the bad side of it being?
The Cuban dictatorship has the moral integrity of writing as the header of the main page of their newspaper: “ÓRGANO OFICIAL DEL COMITÉ CENTRAL DEL PARTIDO COMUNISTA DE CUBA”
(http://www.granma.cubaweb.cu/)
Imagine the NYTimes substituting their silly motto with: “all that’s fit to U.S. plutocracy”
Any statistical estimates?
“in a society of laws …” sometimes I wonder if people talking like that realize they are making fun of themselves if front of people who understand what “rule of law” actually means
Interesting! The CIA paid their agents to shoot at, try to assassinate Bob Marley. Perhaps, they are not “American” enough to be considered human beings anyway.
Indeed, we equally monitor everyone, so no particular people or individuals can reasonably say we are picking on them.
Right! As God tells us only the rights of Americans matter. What would “Unamerican” rights possibly mean?
Satyagraha,
RCL
What are they talking about? It is KGB-owned Russian media which would do such thing. Come on, that would be “Unamerican”!
Michelle fingering her husbands @ss …
I am with Assange when he says his job is not judging politicians when he finds things he thinks are wrong, but making thousands of copies
RCL
It is rather depressing listening to Max Boot, He thinks that Obama reversing his campaign pledges and keeping the rendition/drone/Guantanamo etc Bush policies going, is evidence that America is on “the right track”.
-”Max Boot defends Neocon Foreign Policy”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3R0TldlXlY
…and on Snowden, Boot concedes that Greenwald is right:
-”As for the substance of Snowden’s article, Greenwald is right that I missed one brief passing mention of Russia. Snowden did applaud products offering encryption from companies such as Apple. “Such structural technological changes can ensure access to basic privacies beyond borders, insulating ordinary citizens from the arbitrary passage of anti-privacy laws, such as those now descending upon Russia,” Snowden wrote.”
…Yet, nevertheless:
-”The larger points in my blog post stand: that Snowden has diminished our security against terrorist attack, that he is a traitor (not a word I use lightly or often), and that he is selective and hypocritical in his outrage, focusing his ire on the US, where there are ample civil liberties safeguards on government surveillance, while living as a guest of a despotic state that tramples on the liberty of its citizens and invades its neighbors.”
…I don’t think Boot is making much sense here. I’m kind of the mind that, if it were true, that “there are ample civil liberties safeguards on government surveillance” then what does Boot think Snowden disclosed? Secret documents detailing the NSA’s ample safeguards?
He’s got a point in that the US doesn’t invade its neighbors, though it only has 2.
To be fair, the US did launch a war against Mexico.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican%E2%80%93American_War
And to be fair, two invasions of Canada, 1775 and 1812; Canada was also on the menu during the 1895 Venezuela crisis.
http://www.guyana.org/features/guyanastory/chapter85.html
I disagree that it only has two neighbors and with the insinuation that only outright invasion has consequences.
U.S. Interventions in Latin America
http://www.zompist.com/latam.html
Another look at same issue:
*http://www.yachana.org/teaching/resources/interventions.html
The “mainstream press” is the propaganda voice of the global 1%. You can expect no less than evil spin from it. Shame on those who take salaries from this evil. Sadly, most Americans do not know about the trusted sources. I read only “Common Dreams” and “The Intercept” once a day with sometimes “The Guardian” (UK) or Huff Post thrown in. Rarely “Democracy Now!” anymore – unless (as recently) when Julian Assange is interviewed – as that outlet backed off its investigative journalism with regard to the Israel State murder of 500 children last August.
I think one point not acknowledged in Glenn’s article is pure jealousy. If Snowden had initially brought the documents to the LA Times, or any of his other detractors in commercial media, they’d be all for it. Which I suppose still plays into the Nationalistic jingoism- if you cannot take credit for the achievements of others, then tear it apart at the seams.
Also, the end of the Fairness Doctrine allowed all of this atmosphere to exist, thanks equally to Reagan and Obama.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairness_Doctrine
But I think this article makes for a nice manifesto, summing up what Glenn, Laura and Jeremy have created here. Cheers, folks.
– “If Snowden had initially brought the documents to the LA Times…”
If someone such as the next Snowden considers being the source for the LA Times (even though the paper has made clear how strongly they feel sources should be delivered to the police), it may be difficult finding someone at the paper who is worthy of being called an investigative reporter:
-”Faturechi is the latest in a long line of writers and editors who have left the Times in the last year. There was investigative reporter Andrew Blankstein, who left to join NBC last August. Then there was investigative reporter Ken Bensinger, who left to join Buzzfeed in January. In a staff memo, Times Editor-in-Chief Davan Maharaj derisively said Bensinger was “excited about learning the art and science of click bait.” That didn’t stop Jessica Garrison from joining Bensinger in April.
There was also Ken Dilanian (jumped to the Associated Press in May) and Joe Flint (went back to the Wall St. Journal in July). And last week, it was announced that foreign editor Mark Porubcansky is leaving. Instead of replacing him, the Times is combining Foreign and National desks.”
One ex-LA Times writer said mournfully, “This has always been a business that’s like a baton pass. The older generation passes it to new one. When you start driving out people with experience and they can’t pass on those lessons, the whole enterprise suffers.”
http://www.laweekly.com/news/la-times-reporters-continue-exodus-as-newspaper-group-is-spun-off-4989534
Additionally, those journalists who depend on leaks for their daily material—let alone the stenographers—will naturally find themselves in direct competition with a freelance whore like Snowden. He was giving leaks away for free!
This is not done! We had an arrangement that worked fine for everyone!
etc.
No. The LAT would never have published even one Snowden document. Their history makes this clear. Search “Mark Klein” and see that the LAT killed a story whistleblower Klein brought to them about AT&T and the NSA in the mid oughts. (NSA head Michael Hayden told them publishing would cause the world to blow up, and they meekly complied.)
The LAT could destroy journalist Gary Webb in the 90s because there was no Internet to speak of back then, but they can’t touch Glenn or Snowden.
As for the Fairness Doctrine, it is (or should be held as) unconstitutional. Moreover, in an age of hundreds of channels and the Internet, the basis for arguing its necessity is destroyed.
@ Mona
Please explain your legal rationale for the following two statements (I’m genuinely interested):
As to the second, keep in mind media consolidation, the owners of those “hundreds of channels” and the very narrow victory (or ongoing battle depending on how you see the fight over net neutrality) that resulted in the internet service providers not being able to “tier speeds” or otherwise pick and choose what content they wanted to permit through their “tubes” at which speeds despite their most fervent with to.
As far as the Fairness Doctrine goes, nobody successfully challenged it as unconstitutional when it existed (to the best of my knowledge–although I could be mistaken) so I’m curious why you think that was or what your basis is for normatively saying it should be unconstitutional. Now if all communications infrastructure (including development and research) was private, and not basically a regulated “public good” dependent on a lot of public subsidies, then I’d say you might have a solid legal argument. But I’m at pains to think of why you might believe it should be unconstitutional otherwise.
Does the Fairness Doctrine really even do any good? Besides, broadcast companies are basically private. Even public broadcasting toes the line when it comes to deeply divisive and controversial issues these days.
Mona, do see my new comment below (June 10, 5:29 am) re: Louise Cypher’s “utter, utter lunacy”.
The LA Times probably wouldn’t have helped Snowy flee to Russia…
No, it took Wikileaks and the brave Sarah Harrison to help Snowden arrange a flight that laid over in Russia, where the U.S. stranded Snowden by revoking his passport.
Neither did the Guardian “help snowy flee to Russia.” In fact, the Guardian was virtually no help at all. If not for Wikileaks and Sarah Harrison, well, I don’t know what would have become of him, but odds would have been very bad for a favorable outcome. But if Snowden had chosen for some unimaginable reason to turn over the documents to the LA Times it seems that the LA Times would have paid for is cab fare to nearest police station.
As conclusion i stopped watching news and reading regular news papers, as i felt intelectually insulted in how stupid media thought i am. Glad i found the intercept.
Me too.
I do believe the LA Times is now owned by behemoth “Tribune Publishing”. Their strategy is buying up the competition, merging the former competitors, cutting staff, and becoming an “uber” advert platform. With the remaining editors all working for the same mega-corporation, diversity of editorial opinion would seem to be an unavoidable casualty.
– “Expect more cost cuts at Tribune Publishing papers
Griffin has laid out a strategy of buying newspapers across the country to build the company’s presence in markets where it already has a dominant position. He did the same in Chicago with the $23.5 million purchase last October of the Sun-Times suburban newspapers. While an enlarged footprint will add readers and may win more national advertisers, the move today shows the strategy relies heavily on cutting costs. That strategy could target the struggling Orange County Register, too, analysts said.
“The only rationale for the Union-Tribune deal is a belief that you could be the uber news source in Southern California and achieve a premium revenue platform online,” said Bob Bellack, formerly the chief financial officer at the Los Angeles Times and now an independent financial adviser. “If you can’t squeeze the costs out, it’s unlikely you could create a business that would offset the purchase price.””
http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20150527/NEWS06/150529846/expect-more-cost-cuts-at-tribune-publishing-papers
Hmmm, there’s no way around the fact that technology, the internet, is, well, technical. It is inescapable that certain things cannot be simplified…if you want to do brain surgery, successfully, you need to study for years and years. …
…but legislation regulating the internet, mass surveillance, cyber security, need not be that complicated. If it is that complicated, it is partially for the express purpose of obfuscating what the laws do, and what they don’t do.
And when you have multiple laws, interacting with each other, and with secret law….how are newspapers and citizens supposed to judge?
– “Before it was known that the NSA could do this, the argument was that sharing details of a cybersecurity threat would just lead to DHS and NSA taking that “threat” information, and then seeing if it can help figure out ways to prevent the threat. But, now that we know the NSA can sniff the entire upstream collection using such “cyber signatures” and then is allowed to collect and keep whatever it finds as an incidental collection, this becomes very clearly a surveillance bill — just as Senator Ron Wyden warned. “
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20150604/18132531231/how-nsas-cybersecurity-surveillance-should-completely-change-debate-cybersecurity-bills.shtml
While we are on the topic of the LA Times, I think it entirely appropriate to recommend this excellent documentary on a master of propaganda:
NYT – “In their fascinating documentary “The Goebbels Experiment,” the director and writer Lutz Hachmeister and the writer Michael Kloft provide a rare and chilling glimpse into a brilliant but toxic mind. Rejecting commentary, Mr. Hachmeister and Mr. Kloft allow Goebbels to speak for himself, in the voice of Kenneth Branagh, via the extensive diaries that he kept from 1924 to 1945. Rare clips from German film and television archives illustrate the readings, which veer wildly from venomous, anti-Semitic rants to eloquent musings on music and nature, often in the same entry.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bic0m3P3a6I
This is probably the most pertinent quote from the review:
“At a time when much of our news and entertainment media is controlled by a handful of corporations, “The Goebbels Experiment” is a cautionary reminder that equal access to the machinery of ideas may be society’s most critical goal.”
CNN helped end Howard Dean’s run for the Presidency by reporting and commenting on his hand pumping at a rally of supporters as if he were acting like a lunatic without actually showing the video footage that could and should have been seen. My husband and I waited for days to see the footage. By the time we actually saw the footage of Dean acting perfectly normally for a person wanting to excite his supporters, he had all ready been damaged so much that his campaign couldn’t survive CNN and other corporate media outlets. Because of the Internet, I can find multiple news sources and find out the truth using my own good sense. I am glad Snowden left, because in the USA the truth isn’t allowed politician’s and Corporate media that would have us make all our decisions in the dark. They have no respect for democracy which only survives with a well informed citizenry. Snowden should be thanked rather than vilified. He has given us the evidence that shows that politicians really prefer totalitarianism than freedom. If we as citizens don’t fight them, 1984 will come true. I don’t want that for my children, do you?
Wow, a high number of good comments, too many to single out just one.
The only thing I haven’t seen, maybe I missed it was a direct bludgeoning of this:
the subtitle of the LAT editorial “With the NSA surveillance program he exposed now reined in,…”
That’s it, it’s over? Snowden reined in ONE programme, “ the NSA surveillance program”…and that programme has now been, “reined in”?, completely?, for all time?, …show’s over folks, move along?
I hit on that one pretty much right off down thread.
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/06/07/la-times-editors-advocate-imprisonment-sources/#comment-138417
Good, cause that false premise sets the tone for the whole editorial, …minor modifications to one of the spy programs that we are privy to, in a bill ridiculously, and meaninglessly named “the USA Freedom Act”…Seriously? Did they not consider perhaps the “Apple Pie Act”? “the Liberty Act”?
I wonder if they have a list of meaningless, yet misleading names, waiting on a list, ready and waiting for the next “Shock Doctrine” event?
It used to be mainly FOX that was the ‘bad’ guys…CNN and MSNBC have now been added to that ‘club'; they’ve shown their true colors. The American press was one of the most respected institutions in the world over the last 20 years. You can now add most ‘journalists’ to the list; their reaction to Snowden has given us a very accurate dividing line as to who can and who can not be trusted anymore by the American population.
Thanx Glenn, for a great article, and I hope it helps open some eyes!
Thank you, Glenn, for your persistence in exposing how far the “news” establishment has drifted away from its role of constructively and accurately informing the public about issues important to their individual and common well being. Hard as it may be, I am still clinging to the hope that even a single voice like yours speaking the truth can make a difference.
Fantastic article Mr. Greenwald. Thank you.
That its been shown that a huge chunk of the “News” establishment is corrupt living off the Government teet of access and regurgitating “leaks” also explains much of the cheer-leading drumbeat most of the U.S. news establishment promoted towards war in Iraq (when it had nothing to do with Al Queda & 9/11). One wonders if the huge companies and massively powerful individuals that own many of “our” news organizations have decided their interests lie with this surveillance state & its associated power (much as Microsoft, AT&T and Verizon threw their hats in to actively partner with the NSA out of choice) and hence have chosen to serve as propaganda outlets willingly.
I can’t seem to turn on the internet without one of these. Yet another video of US police, this time, pulling a gun on teens at a pool party…”get out of here, or you are going too!”
Police to a teen, “You became part of the mob.”
To a face down handcuffed girl, “Stop fighting”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M10HJnNQWCs
It starts reasonably enough, One officer is polite, the teens in their bathing suits try to be helpful, one even naively returns an officer’s flash light that the police had dropped. Then another officer arrives near the camera, waves his truncheon at the kids, throws a girl to the ground, aims his gun at the teens, and complains that they made him run around in hot Texas weather.
He’s just mad because his department doesn’t have Speedos for summer uniforms. ;-}
-”his department doesn’t have Speedos for summer uniforms.”
Oh great!, now somebody is going to photoshop that, I don’t want to see it!!
Very good article on the incident…basically, common sense any police officer should know:
-”But controlling a pool party gone wild in a McKinney neighborhood is not exactly the zenith of hard police work. This should be bread and butter cop stuff. Show up, turn the lights on, tell the kids to move along, be done with it. If they refuse, stay calm, call in back up and sort things out rationally.”
Instead of:
-”At the beginning of the video we hear from another officer, calmly talking to a group of kids, telling them hey, look, don’t just run when the police show up. It’s exactly the sort of conversation you would hope a police officer would have with some kids.
Then Casebolt walks up screaming at people to get on the ground. He’s the only one who seems worked up. The whole atmosphere changes with his appearance.
And suddenly, for reasons impossible to tell from this video, he’s dragging this child to the ground and handcuffing her.”
http://dallasmorningviewsblog.dallasnews.com/2015/06/a-shame-for-mckinney-and-for-all-of-us.html/
The police officer, Casebolt, has been trying to delete his social media accounts, but Gawker, has found some of his favourite videos:
-”Decase73’s Youtube playlist features a dozen videos with titles like “Man Attacks Baltimore Police Officer,” “Man Sucker-Punches Cop Gets Kicked in the Face,” and “Chief tells the TRUTH that Black People don’t want to hear.” All would appear to reflect a mindset that police officers are entitled to use any and all force necessary to subjugate those they ostensibly protect and serve.”
http://gawker.com/did-the-mckinney-cop-watch-video-of-himself-terrorizing-1709690822
Apparently some of the kids were there “without permission.”
Whose permission was needed is not specified.
Glenn and others: what about this piece?
Edward Snowden lends his support to “USA Freedom Act”
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2015/06/06/snow-j06.html
In one of the comments below the article, someone suggests that Snowden is no “political sophisticate.” Greenwald on the other hand has previously written about the purpose and class function of intrusive, mass spying and data collection and authoritarian programs. (salon.com/2011/08/19/surveillance_13 )
[snip]
‘In reality, as the World Socialist Web Site wrote after the bill’s passage, “The bill—which has received the endorsement of the Obama administration and war criminals such as CIA Director John Brennan—is not an effort to curtail the vast and illegal activities of the US intelligence agency, but rather a means of ensuring that these activities can continue, now with a pseudo-legal foundation that has been explicitly endorsed by Congress.”..’
An Oh Cindy You’re So Fine You’re So Fine You Blow My Mind Hey Cindy Hey Cindy Production
ht `vjain
Here’s one for the incongruity mongers:
GG tweets:’Many of the worst people on the planet are found in DC think tanks. It’s the underbelly of Washington militarism and corruption.’
Got to say that from where I am sitting, that is a statement that I agree with, but I wonder if The Intercept’s National Security Editor (with her history at CSIS) also agrees?
As for coverage of the ”FREEDOM AT LEAST’ ACT 2015′, it all seems like a lot of past tense writing to me; the debate happened, the surveillance program ((at least in its original form)) ended, and so on.
So suddenly the multibillion dollar police state infrastructure looks under threat by a ‘historic’ backlash….mmmm…
Forgive my cynicism.
Smile for the camera.
`myers..
Me thinks that the`GG was referring to the individuals who are currently exposing Russian skullduggery, as a means to fear-monger..
Oh, wait..
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/05/28/u-s-cyber-firm-alleges-hacked-emails-reveal-russian-front-operation/#comments
A How To Guide On Proper Butt Bomb Erucation Production
They don’t need those arse bombs no more, they got the USAF:
http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2015/06/07/u-s-acting-as-air-support-to-al-qaeda-in-syria-against-isis/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
h/t Thomas Drake
I’ve recently found myself getting up at dusk, walking on the ceiling and trying to eat through my butt, just to, you know, get with the times.
Well, call me disillusioned. Or even ‘bitter’ if you like. I thought I was radical in 1970. I knew nothing! How did we get from there to here? All those late sixties/early seventies advances, or so it seemed. Even under Nixon, a liberal fanatic by today’s standards, with the EPA and various liberal legislation. But then the great roll back since 1980, which, with the help of technology, is worse than ever but for one thing as far as I can tell – the Internet. And they’re working on that, you can be sure.
The Judicial system serves the king. Now I realize, having once been a great believer in that branch of govt (after rulings such as Gideon v. Florida, not to mention the more usually cited) that it was just an anomaly in time. And journalism? Serves the king. They all serve the king. However you define ‘king’. And I’ve come to the conclusion that we’re only as good as our species is, as a whole – which means hysterical, scared, threatened, paranoid, and aggressive. We still live in the caves. The handful that show promise, even a bit, are lost in the crowd, like a half way decent legislator in a congress or parliament.
And I ask myself, over and over, what has happened to journalists? Maybe nothing, really, but for being buried under corporate ownership. Maybe they’re all still there. Sometimes the monster is just plain bigger than us and we have to ride the tide, icebergs and all. Historical momentum, whatever label one likes.
The Bolsheviks understood that reform was bullshit, it was the thin edge of the wedge. But they screwed it up anyway. All the most extreme always do. The most extreme communists in the 10’s, the most extreme Zionists in the 40’s, the most extreme Islam from late 60’s to the 80’s, the most extreme neocons from the 80’s to the noughts and beyond. So reform doesn’t work, nor does overhaul – then what does? Some third way. No one knows – or if they do, we haven’t heard of them. In one sense, Chomsky is right – most or at least many solutions are simply, “Stop what you’re doing”.
But trying to make sense out of it? I know a woman, an Irish woman, who lost her beloved dog in a traffic accident and so, to over simplify, wanted to see the surviving dog, the dog she hated, dead. And I never heard such smearing, such criminalization of a mere dog, an ordinary dog. The point is, to try to find the rationality in such irrationality is an exercise in futility. (In such a microcosm, there are solutions – I saved the dog and lost the friends. Not even a dog type I like much, to be honest. But he lives and eats and has a warm place and canine companionship, which must be better than death.)
You can’t make people sane. If Jesus Christ – man, god or myth, it doesn’t matter – showed up today, he’d be dead or lost in some institution before we even heard about him and probably much much faster than Edward Snowden.
Apologies for ramble. I haven’t been around much for a while (though I do still do the reading).
Here is what has happened to journalists:
All the major media outlets who are in positions to hire journalists do not want stories that call out those in power.
Add to this the major problem of many journalists being run by their egos and have lost any sense of being altruistic.
Throughout the next few months there will be some really swank parties out in the Hamptons and many politicians and lawyers and Wall Street crooks will be at these parties but there will also be “journalists” as well.
They will all be having a swell time together because they are all thick as thieves.
Back in the day if a journalist was trying to dig up dirt on some politician he/she would be encouraged by the publisher. Not anymore, unless you happen to be “The Duggars”.
As Voltaire said, “If you want to understand who rules you, see who you are not allowed to criticize.”
Glad to see you back, and your “ramble” was spot on. Today Richard Nixon — or anyone advocating his policies — couldn’t get nominated as a Democrat.
A Hey Don’t Bogart That Toobin Man Production
ht `c-nobz
It’s like someone killed the vine. I don’t know but, when the lies began to become ‘big’ in a big scale op, whether that’s 9/11 or the ‘other’ troubling Middle Eastern interventions, then the press, the papers have definitely become tied in with US government views. Unbelievable silence on some areas of reporting. Is it left to the visions of a God of love to send his true flock to the scene? I dreamed a vision of a number of children, and they were children. I dreamed this group of children were cut to ribbons with open wounds, the less injured helping the smaller babies, and no one left to actually care for even suturing and first medical care. And of course the threat of beheading/kidnaps and strangeness the like of which we have not seen this century for a while. So who poisoned the vine. Who tried to cut the root. Toppled only with the silent deadly scenes of animals/wildlife I should say sea life occurring in the Pacific. Animals take second place in the human dramas. But, we rely on animals for many products. And it seems impossible to balance the lack of proper reportage on this. There’s just silence. There’s a deadly silence. Why? When it really comes down to responsible behaviour from world governments they are all heads in the sand.. the Australian’s got it right on the G8 summit, when the demonstrators who were denied access to the conference area, so no one could physically shout to Obama and other world leaders their opinions. Why would that hurt? Why are ‘we’ worried about image? The decisions the leaders make affect everyone. Can you feel the fear? The wall of silence? G7, one nation less than the last conference, and all too obviously the reason for the failing United Nations Organization is that ‘dialogue’ is all too much and peace will suffer first of all, and then, why? Back to the question of why? America cannot be a one armed bandit. We are all part of the body. Snowden’s revelations are probably only the tip of a ‘New World Order’ plan. That is the most worrying part, the silent elite who own the gold in the world. Bilderberg conferences are shrouded in secrecy, and yet the world bankers attend, business, and selected press members, newspaper owners. Is tyranny just around the corner?
It should be no surprise to anyone that the mainstream media peddle the governments propaganda about Snowden or anything else. After all, the owners of mainstream media e.g. Rupert Murdoch et al. are major contributers to political party’s across the world. These cosy self serving relationships are detrimental to our democracies.
Solution – stop buying/watching mainstream media – this solution is showing an ever increasing trend
There were those of us who knew that the U.S. government was spying on its own citizens and on every other country (friend or foe) in the world. What Snowden did was expose and verify what many suspected.
In a country that claims to be run “by the people”, it is obvious that “the people” need to know what their government is doing if there is to be any hope of constraining the central government. The sad part is that the propaganda war waged by the central state on its own people has convinced them that there is a need to go beyond the constitution to “protect” them from all those “bad guys” out there who just live to execute a plot against the US.
“The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.” ~ H. L. Mencken
I have no doubt, Snowden’s heroic actions have informed the public of governments’ illegal surveillance of their own citizens. I have seen Australia turn those illegal methods into legal ones by changling laws.
The public has now fewer rights after Snowden’s disclosures, than before but this is not his fault.
The mad monk Abbot and most of his Cabinet are wishing to
strip citizenship and the right to use the internet from suspected “terrorists” without account to due process. A former minister Amanda Vanstone has rightly come forth with severe criticism of this, at The Age.
http://www.theage.com.au/comment/lazy-sneaky-or-both-what-were-you-thinking-prime-minister-20150607-ghho0v.html
Lazy, sneaky or both: what were you thinking, Prime Minister?
Amanda Vanstone
Former Howard government minister
Sometimes reality is so shocking that we have to pinch ourselves to make sure we are in the real world. The current brouhaha over a recent federal cabinet meeting that dealt with a proposal to take citizenship from dual nationals by ministerial fiat has once more put me in pinch-me mode.
Tony Abbott is a constitutional monarchist and a self-confessed Anglophile, so for him to tolerate, let alone be at the helm of, a ship that throws the Westminster system of cabinet government out the window is simply astounding. The public will not long tolerate people who say one thing and do another.
Cabinet government demands policy change goes through a process whereby the arguments canvassing the pros and cons are clearly laid out in a cabinet paper prepared in the department concerned. It is circulated for comment to any other relevant departments. The theory is that the best views the Australian Public Service can offer and those of the minister proposing the change are circulated, so cabinet ministers can give them proper thought before the discussion
snip
Come to me o ye of little faith
Abbott’s ‘come to Jesus’ moment caps Canberra’s leaky week. Rocco Fazzari and Denis Carnahan with apologies to The Beatles.
snip
do watch the cartoon, its a treat.
Things are getting worse not better here in the land of Oz.
Speaking of being young and ill informed….
The other day I was at K-Mart at the checkout when the twenty something clerk asked me for my phone number so I could receive the sale price. Call me silly but I do not yell out my phone number in public places so I produced one of those little key-card thingies that they swipe through the system.
Well …. as I always do just to be cantankerous, I said as loud as I could “Oh….I guess Big Brother needs know how many under panties I am buying.”
The checker turns to me and says….wait for it…… “WHO IS BIG BROTHER?” I said …you do not know who Big Brother is, and she said no. I told her then you had better find out.
You know when you think about “1984”….we are already living it. The giant TV screens mounted on the wall of almost every home in America. Every move monitored and tracked by our own cooperation. The majority of the population subdue like sheep by the promise of protection from “terrorism” when every day in the streets of America terrorism is being perpetrated against unarmed citizens with impunity.
As far as the Los Angeles Times goes that is what you get when you hire morons. We have a local “rag” that only spews that the ‘good-times’ are here and how the rich only do good things for our community…..like helping the por old folk and by giving them new boot-straps to pull themselves up by. Usually on page two of this 10-page noose-paper is a whole page dedicated to local crimes, arrests for drugs and drunkenness, petty thief’s, shoplifting etc. We por-folk just can’t seem to get it together. I say if the rich would pay their fairshare….us poor folks would have jobs and healthcare and roofs over our heads and there wouldn’t be enough subject matter to print a “crimes” page.
Might be worth thinking about why stores ask customers for phone numbers and for “little key-card thingies”. The more data you hand over, the more they can figure out how to sell you bad deals, which (let’s face it) is a big part of their business.
Spot on RR – I even saw an article about that, maybe at The Guardian. A lot of companies want to figure out just how much you need an item and based on your economics could/would pay for it. So customer A could pay a wildly different price for the same item as customer B. I think this is happening a lot in online sales. And a lot of folks just brush this stuff off…
Great article Glenn Greenwald. It’s amazing how brazen some in the major media cartels have become. It’s like they can’t imagine a time when they’re going to be seen as agents of pinstriped fascists. Such hubris will lead to their sudden unraveling. For an article on why journalism has been so gutted since the days of Daniel Ellsberg’s whistle-blowing, the diabolical power crimes of the Deep State, and the construction of a totalitarian super-state, see – “Missing in News-action: Confronting ‘Deep State’ Power Crimes” at: http://snoopman.net.nz/?p=1002
Lady Liberty Gets Ravished…With Secrets!!! H/T @PresumptuousBug & @Pedinska #ABodiceRipperProduction™ @aniktwit
https://worzelgummidge.bandcamp.com/track/cat-names
I don’t understand why people are not talking about the concrete damage that can be done to every American by NSA’s actions; instead we are talking about the Constitution as if its value is derived from the pleasant sound of the words rolling off our tongues. The information they collect could affect everything from the stock market to the election of government officials. We know the type of operations the CIA has performed in other countries to affect their governments; there is no reason to believe they are not doing the same in America. Time to talk in concrete terms about the damage being done to everyday Americans from their take home pay to the politicians they trust.
My theory is that this information was not only available to those in the government but also those who paid for access to it. This would explain why so many would go to such extremes to defend an illegal program that produced no positive results for its stated purpose. This information could have been made available to wealthy individuals such as Rupert Murdoch, financial institutions, and others who had lots of cash and political connections. With the information gained from this program you could take down your political enemies with information about illicit affairs or the unfortunate dic pic, as well as make large sums of cash from a well-timed stock transaction made possible through the ultimate insider information.
“.. very interesting”
https://youtu.be/krD4hdGvGHM
A Wilhelm Von Nord Bah Production
Music Time
The dance between decay and provenance. The purity of math destroyed by imperfection and miscommunication. Error checking overwhelmed into noise. It will become obvious that numbers and chaos are one. This is not a radio struggling to hold onto signal, but the human experience struggling to invent repetition and order.
And it is beautiful. Rumble. Rumble. Rumble.
https://soundcloud.com/edit/daedelus-dumbfound-edit-remix
None will question you. None will argue. You be whoever you say.
Just one more mile downhill.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxSrI86dCrc
:)
https://soundcloud.com/lapalux/forlorn-ft-busdriver
Just accept it. We must never put our differences aside. It’s our way of life.
God bless the great North/South divide.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9crmIA4NTRQ
Well, Mr. Glenn, you can’t write another article on this subject and still intentionally avoid a point I’ve been making for the last year any better than that. So let me say it again FOR you and your colleagues, perhaps wanting to maintain their pretense while at correspondents’ dinners and such, so none of you have to. Too many Dilanians, Cescas and Boots always instantly attacking the Webb, Risen or Greenwald messengers as disloyal to OUR country appear far too queued and coordinated to just be coincidence, always. And it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to understand few professions provide both the cover and international travel expectations the way journalism does. I’m just sayin’, if I were recruiting on college campuses for an intel agency (for decades) I wouldn’t consider wannabe school teachers a get. Logically, somewhere there’s a considerably long noc list of recruited, subverted or otherwise compromised media personalities and jinos (journalists in name only) actually working to help Big Brother “control the geopolitical narrative” in a world domination effort. I hope you’re at least mentally making your own list…
TLDR version
He said Journalist are state agents/spies
An interesting thought.
You made the thought absolute, my friend Muhib, not I. All should be judged by their actions.
Peace.
It would be illegal in the US, wouldn’t it? In other countries, I’m quite sure there are journalists on the CIA’s payroll.
noc
n. – an undercover agent who is given no official cover
It is indeed illegal. It also has been common practice since Day Zero.
“The CIA and the media” by Carl Bernstein (yes that one) documented a lot of this.
The Intercept just keeps getting better and better. Thanks for truly making a difference to restore the degraded state of journalism back towards keeping power accountable to the public. You’re showing how it’s done. Now this is the America I love, even while you’re exposing the dark side of what has been so disappointing about it. Sunlight is the best disinfectant.
A Farting Wedgwood Pottery Into A Golden Bowl Of Rose Petals Production
It’s Sunday. Time for Cindy to get inspired by Glenn Greenwald
-> Cato Inst: https://youtu.be/ojvqjZww6a0?t=1h11m
-> With Jeffrey Toobs: https://youtu.be/d53QM8tnQUQ?t=10m18s
-> & of course Dina NPR – https://youtu.be/C2RxQpESxoI?t=2m6s
Have a great evening Cindy. The Cato one is my favorite.
Thanks for nailing this depravity for exactly what it is. This contradiction drives me nuts. The burden on those who grasp the enormity of Snowden’s service while refusing to pardon him is inexcusable. As you note, Glenn, it’s worse than those who genuinely think Snowden is a threat.
A little history lesson regarding Daniel Ellsberg and the Pentagon Papers case. It was a different time, as he says in this article, but for one thing, the Nixon Administration first went after the newspapers in court, tried to stop them from publishing it. New York Times Co. v. United States, New York Times Co. v. United States, 403 U.S. 713 (1971).
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/403/713/case.html
It’s something the LA Times should reflect on, since the case very rapidly became a question of press freedom, and the LA Times enjoys its ability to print freely, in part, because of this decision. Read it, it has some powerful wording. Some key parts:
Ellsberg’s own heroism and disclosure aside, he triggered an important precedent in press-freedom case law and the LA Times seems to have a terribly short memory.
That’s a spectacular ‘history lesson.’ If the LA Times is capable of shame, that history lesson should bring on a lot of it. Same goes for Michael Kinsley. It has been too long since he and all of us were reminded about what a shameful but also comically ridiculous “book review” he penned about No Place to Hide.
I remember. The judges in those days were very upright and honest. We lost a bunch of people with real testies.
Old school. GW Bush had Bill Keller ‘hold off’ on some rather negative PR for a chicken wing dinner, group prayer and some clean socks.
Also, I doubt the SCOTUS today would be so favorable to Snowden, coram? There’s a new war on … worst one ever.
SCOTUS in 1971 was dealing with the Nixon Administration’s attempt to enjoin the press from publishing the Pentagon Papers, not Ellsberg as such. They might not be favorable to the press today if Obama tried to enjoin the papers again, although NY Times v. US is now precedent, at least. Ellsberg didn’t get a day in appellate court, since the Federal courts threw out his case because of prosecutorial misconduct, so Ellsberg (or Snowden) would have a harder time.
I think all courses for journalism should have a compulsory course on morality and ethics. That should help fill a big gap in education.
Also, journalists should have a self-regulatory professional body that would oversee whether their members are ethical in their dealings. Finally, a lot of unethical blokes like Wnt and Lousy Cypher practice journalism in borrowed space, and they should be prevented from airing their wild ideas.
This unregulated profession has been troubled and “unethical” for centuries. It is the ugly price we pay for a free press. Only the alternative would be worse — as it is in many other countries.
Self-regulation is regulation by peers. You can still stay out and write, but by not belonging to the professional body you lose your credibility and the reading public gets to be aware of this fact. Savvy?
Really.
You know, I am out here in the rest of the world and from my vantage point there really isn’t a supposedly “free” press corps in ANY nation that marches in such lock step spreading the official line as you find in the US.
The current state of US journalism is unique amongst it’s planetary peers in spreading misinformation, propaganda and pushing slanted narrative where outright lie would be too obvious. Even Iran, China and Russia have better, less party line news sources available for us to learn current affairs from.
No, you already have one of the worst examples of a “free press” on the planet.
And BTW – you should disabuse yourself of the idea that it is free, just call it press. Or more accurately perhaps the “Government Announcement Services”.
I would like to know more about how the government keeps the press in line. One case where it is pretty clear to me — newspapers. Open up a Chicago Sun-Times and you’ll find this thick wad of paper in the middle, all kinds of official notices of this and that zoning change or whatever. Every once in a blue moon you’ll see local governments talking about economizing and pulling their announcements from one paper or the other… Another case is movies — during the Sony leak, it came out how much the Mexican government got their newest James Bond flick rewritten to showcase Mexico and make their people look good, in exchange for huge subsidies. The movies aren’t really independent productions, but propaganda for hire. But I still don’t know how they skew TV and internet news.
I find it interesting that the LA Times was one of the very few media outlets which followed the Guardian’s lead on the passing of NSA data to Israel..
Ah,a mention of the reason why all these propagandists in the MSM spew their BS,back repression and serial lie about just about everything but yesterdays weather and sports scores,Zion.
This is a great article. But I was confused about a few things. What is “MSNBC” and “LA Times”? Are those like twitter accounts or something? Do they have a patreon or gofundme? What about a podcast? I have never heard of some of this stuff, like CNN… is that like a chan site? I am kind of old so maybe I don’t know about all the newest social networks yet…
I think it would be wise for the U.S. to look for a middle ground between prosecuting people for revealing anything about how the government works to journalists, and routinely amnestying a person for stuffing an electronic satchel with as many secrets as he can find and flying off to China with it. There are levels where the government sort-of recognizes the validity of leaks – sometimes legally, usually grudgingly and de facto, but recognizes. So there could be a policy that acknowledges that someone from NSA or other spy agencies who tells Americans and lawful visitors how their government is spying on them is doing something in the public interest… even if they fire him for it ASAP. The effect of a well-drafted policy in this regard might have been to improve security by allowing people like Snowden and Manning to go down some legitimate whistleblower channel.
But arguing that Snowden did nothing wrong at all… that’s a tough one. Sure, he wanted to reveal surveillance – but he and you seem set on holding much if not practically all of what he has back from the public lest it reveal something too damaging. And to be sure, he was trusted with genuinely confidential information that reveals names of collaborators and such. Many would say that there is some point, when you have a client and he has a secret, and you’ve agreed not to leak that secret, and you do, that you’ve done something wrong by abusing your position.
I mean, Cigna Healthcare could publish a list of all the people under their care suffering with depression in order to help head off the potential damaging effects should one of them be hired as a pilot, train engineer, hazardous materials hauler (oh, hell, anything, they might as well pull the trigger now!) Or, more to the point, your Internet provider could hand over all your emails to the NSA lest you be a terrorist. We have to be careful not to make our position so extreme that we oppose ourselves!
There still is the nagging worry that Snowden’s secret archive didn’t stay secret from the people who mattered – whether he was secretly working for a foreign power to begin with, or if the Chinese put backdoors in their laptops (can you even buy a laptop with no Chinese parts?) so secret that even the NSA doesn’t know they can access everything Snowden encrypted over some radio transponder he doesn’t even know is there. A few days in China is a long time if they had the right backdoor in place.
Anyway, given the extraordinary situation, I can picture them negotiating something where Snowden would plead to recklessly handling secret data, but not with such an extreme penalty as what would be expected now, then lay down a line for future whistleblowers to follow, and authorize an official disclosure program that, in theory, should make it unnecessary for them to follow it.
if you see someone breaking the law and egregiously violating the rights of another, it is pretty much agreed by most ordinary people that any agreements about secrecy do not extend to such situations and you would be better off breaking the secrecy and exposing the abuse.
it is common sense. plain common sense. all of the money and power in the world cannot change that.
Glenn’s article above isn’t so much about Snowden as it is about the LA Times’ fouling its own nest, in the sense that if a newspaper scorns its sources, its going to find that it may have few juicy scoops to publish and will have to simply repeat gov’t and corporate PR handouts instead. It’s also about the fact that the LA Times no doubt made use of the revelations Snowden produced but still has this sanctimony about him facing consequences, which means the paper is trying to have it both ways.
It’s also about the paper’s silence on prosecuting Clapper for perjury to Congress or about prosecuting David Petraeus, who provided secrets not as a public service but to his mistress. It’s a rather odd tone for them to take.
And finally, they forget that their freedom to publish, as opposed to being compelled to print government prattle in the Pravda/Isvestia mode, is founded in no small part on cases like this. The Pentagon papers court case, even more than the papers themselves, was central to their ability to publish now, and why people would want to read their paper instead of using it to line their birdcages.
“…if a newspaper scorns its sources, its going to find that it may have few juicy scoops to publish and will have to simply repeat gov’t and corporate PR handouts instead.”
Unfortunately, they mostly seem happy to do that. Serving power pays better than opposing it.
Thank you for a brave opinion…….
” someone who reveals information that the state has deemed should be secret belongs in prison – at least when those revelations reflect poorly on top U.S. officials.”
To the normal list of categories of persons that reveal information that reflects poorly not just on top U. S. officials, but on the entire nation as a whole, add victims of brutal mind control torture, a shameful practice that, according to Dr. McCoy, has been ongoing since WW2. When victims of brutal mind control torture spell out the details of their abuse, some see them as ‘revealing state secrets’. Someone who did not identify him/herself said as much in a comment section of FFCHS about 2 or 3 years back the records of which are archived.
Victims rights are treated worse than one treats a roll of Charmin. Just today, a young American male who is remotely tortured, told me someone tried to open his door forcefully in the middle of the night last night. The young man – extremely brillian person – was scared. But thanks to security measures he takes, the criminal failed to get in.
What is notable about this is that, he could not call the police, for fear of being thrown in jail and somehow set up for an ‘evaluation’, the outcome of which, told by some perpetrators themselves who chose to mouth out, is to have a victim jail or in a psychiatric unit where the crimes can be perpetrated safely and quietly until the person dies. Unfortunately, I could not advise him to call the police either. He has never committed a crime. He is not a terrorist and has no terrorist acquaintances or friends. The same is true of the vast majority of mind control victims.
Thousands of mind control victims across the country will not approach the police if something happens, out of fear of setting in motion a process that would end up working against them. I have had many violations of breaches into my own home, including stains on the rug; black liquid flowing from a shower in 2012; multiple items stolen while away; door found open on coming back from work; camera stolen and returned one year later with all images comprising indisputable evidence of the crimes, wiped out of the disk; objects rearranged and displaced from original places of keep; unidentified objects like pens and pencils, including an AT&T SD card, which was promptly removed from my residence weeks later, etc. Not once did I call the police, even though the obvious benefit is to establish a record. The possible cost could be worse.
This is precisely what Dr. Arrigo, a prominent psychologist, wrote about when he asserted that torture activities undermine, and when taken to their ultimate conclusion, will eventually destroy essential structures and institutions critical to a normally functioning democracy, and that the proponents and practitioners of torture have yet to come up with ideas and corrective mechanisms that would repair the societal damage done, and restore the sane order. I am paraphrasing …
The medical community is needed to participate in torture so the abused can be assessed for fitness for the next round, she asserted. Psychologists design the torture programs and the APA has been implicated since the 50’s (McCoy). Intelligence agencies adapt the designs and implement, and propagate the techniques to many nations across the world. Psychiatrists falsely diagnose victims of mind control torture with psychoses they do not have, and prescribe potent neuro-agents that end up messing their brains, long term. Legal profession devises obfuscation mechanisms, redefine the word ‘torture’ itself, including advising for the protection of the crimes under the nation’s classification system. Illegally. Congress votes the funds (McCoy). Inbedded journalism cheers on. Law enforcement facilitates. Public acquiesces in ignorance or in indifference. And simply prefers the ” go shopping ” advice Prez George W. advised the nation to do. And pretty soon, democracy is a thing of the past without as much as a putch.
Good article Glenn. But please tell me something new…
http://freedomfchs.lefora.com/topic/7442322/nanodevices-in-sensory-overload-mind-control-torture
It’s really great to see that you have cured yourself of all your vexing nano-problems. Please provide your cure to EC and AmericanGestapo as a free social service. This website does nothing good for anybody, so at least you can use it to spread comfort to the rest of humanity.
I hope Pat B. has gotten those grooves on his head fixed!
Oh this piece was a hoot. What a beauty. Reminds of the time I saw Glenn tell Jeffrey Toobin live on CNN, that the US was “full of Jeffrey Toobins.”
I still think a “toobin” was the sort of thing they sold on the corner of Haight and Ashbury ca. 1966, as in, “yeah, man, we smoked some good toobin, and it was groovy,” or “hey! don’t bogart that toobin, man!”
Well, I can confirm that something similar did occur at The Haight, just not on the corner. (toobin does sound like doob’n).
Great article! Thank you, Glenn!
Whew, tell it completely like it is again, Glenn Greenwald! The MSN, or “lamestream media”, and/or “fawning corporate media” is no longer the Fourth Estate, but is now part of the Fifth Estate, the super-secret, un-free, anti-liberty-and-freedom, liberty-and-freedom-destroying, uber-nationalism “Fourth Reich” that now runs the U.S. and global government, and is outright seeking, with the compliant, false-propragandizing media’s help, without which the neo-fascist state could not be successful in doing so, to enslave the entire U.S. and the whole world.
It is no exaggeration whatsoever that the neo-corporate-fascist totalitarian militarized police state that is taking over the U.S., the West and the world, doesn’t want any of us to remain free, or at least Truly Free. They want us all in at least symbolic “shackles”, unable not only to speak the truth about what is really happening, but to even be able to think it. They want absolute control of everyone, which doesn’t allow for any True Liberty and Freedom whatsoever; and, soon, they want all dissenters in literal shackles and disappeared into in indefinite military detention without any true due process of law, and/or anything but kangaroo military “trials”, aka tribunals or “commissions ‘trials'”, if that; and they want to hold all of these COMPLETELY INNOCENT people as long as the “war (OF!) terrorism” continues, which will be forever; and, therefore, most likely a life sentence; if not execution, sooner.
We are the USSR! Back in the USSR.
Glenn really piles on when he gets going. He’s the best ranter in cyberspace. Nice work, Glenn — thanks!
Wow! Two years? Where did the time go? I was commenting over at HuffPo at the time and I tried agitating for Snowden to get the Nobel Peace Prize, with the idea being it would be harder to throw him in jail if he had one. When that failed, I tried to start a “Where’s Snowden?” campaign, with the idea that it would make it hard for the NSA/CIA to track him. Stuff like, “I saw Snowden at a Berlin night club.” and “I saw Snowden at the Eiffel Tower.” It got me banned from HuffPo. Things were very tense and worrying for a while until Vladimir Putin stepped up and granted him asylum. So maybe Putin should get the Nobel Peace Prize (and also for Syria).
As far as the revelations go. The main thing for me, was actually seeing all the corporate logos on the disclosed documents (available at Glenn’s website) and realizing the utter perfidy of American corporations in selling out their customers. As a result, I’ve started moving to a more secure compute environment. So, I guess Snowden changed my life.
For example, I don’t use Verizon any more.
Max Boot wipes the floor with Glenn Greenwald:
https://www.commentarymagazine.com/2015/06/07/edward-snowden-glenn-greenwald-vladimir-putin/
Sing it out, Louise! https://twitter.com/Sillyputty78/status/607641708575096832?lang=en
The troll has already received her daily feeding.
My favourite line in the portion of the piece I read:
” In the West, they come from elected legislators. In Russia, from the Kremlin and Putin’s rubber stump Duma.”
You can’t reason with persistent myth.
Say Louise, do you concur with Boot that NSA* infrastructure analysts making as much as $200,000 a year are living an “anonymous existence as a low-level drone in a dead-end government job?”
*(Snowden was actually working for Dell, and previously at Booz Allen. But we already know that Max finds reading for facts difficult.)
Also, while it’s true that Snowden is well respected around the world, and has received tons of awards and so forth, it’s not like he’s a psychic who can predict the future. He still took substantial risks and continues to be at risk.
What sort of sophomoric little troll uses a homophone of the devil’s name anyway, Louisecypher, but one already embracing evil purpose?
Good for you.
It has always been apparent by Max Boot’s own words that Max Boot is — to understate — not a very bright person. But that “floor wiping,” as you’ve called it, just might make Max Boot more of a laughing stock then he had long previously been. That’s the danger of trying to save face by face planting. Just never works out the way you had hoped or intended.
Yeah, Cindy sort of had a point in claiming Glenn was going after “low-hanging fruit” in squashing Max Boot. I just disagreed that the out-and-out lie about Snowden’s “failure” to criticize Putin’s Russia was not worth addressing, in part because a number of other Establishment geniuses also make the same mistake.
Glenn could easily crush Boot’s response, but it might not be worth the effort. Almost every one of Boot’s claims is begging to be taken down, though. For example, he says Snowden should turn himself in because the US has an independent judiciary. It’s like Boot is not even familiar with the most fundamental elements of the debate.
It’s not “just like that.” It is that. ;)
Glenn hasn’t wasted his platform with the likes of simpletons like Boot in many years (only occasionally addressing this type on Twitter and in comments), and really only did this time because of the lie about Snowden vis-a-vis Putin’s Russia.
The torture whistleblower John Kiriakou mentions in this interview that he advised Snowden not to come back to the U.S. because the court his is being charged in is in a district of Virginia known as “The Espionage Court”.
Any “jury” would be military, intelligence and other government employees:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kjO7saoQjNk
The main point of that post was not Max Boot – why would I possibly care enough about him for that? – but rather the general, frequently told lie that Snowden never criticizes Russia. Max Boot’s article was just the example used to disprove that lie (though I concede that once I mentioned his name, I expressed my sentiments toward him, though those are widely shared).
That article also literally took me 20 minutes to write because of how easy it was to disprove.
Hardly what i will call “wiping the the floor” by this obscure ultra right wing blogger, Mr. Boot made himself look like a hysterical idiot , in his desperation to get back at Greenwald.
Boot is still a coward, and since all he had to do was google, “Snowden criticizes Russia” to avoid his “innocent oversight” and find the history of Snowden talking about Russia, he is still very, very intellectually lazy.
He works for (or, more accurately, receives money from) a think tank, which holds him out as an “expert” on these issues: http://www.cfr.org/experts/national-security-warfare-terrorism/max-boot/b5641 Yet he can’t be bothered to check whether his foundational point regarding Snowden is even accurate by typing three simple words. All the blather in the world is not going to make that shoddy work go away. And I’m sure that’s a feature not a bug in a lot of think tanks, including Boot’s.
The commentaries are still coming in. Repeat after me, Dorothy … there’s no place like Rome, there’s no place like Rome …
– – –
Is this how one wipes a floor, Louise?
Such jealousy! He makes it sound as if this really bright guy who taught himself to be an expert in these technical things was hardly capable of slinging burgers. Max displays a combination of stupidity and jealousy that makes anyone who praises him look like a fool. Sorry, Louise, you lose. If you knew anything about anything you would not stay away from him.
Oh, leave to the “not” in the last sentence.
Max Boot is the excrement on your ass.sheesh,that little turd,who is 0 for a thousand in correct thinking?Your heroes are Quisling devotees and will be dealt with accordingly,I hope.
David Sirota tweeted a screengrab of this because he also loves it as much as I do:
“personalities” Heh heh.
CNN and Jeffrey Toobin…always interesting and amusing to hear their fey analysis of the law…could do a seminar on what qualities constitute an “expert”..Sigh!
It’s just an observation and no tabulations have been performed to back up what I perceive, but there seems to be an expanding attack on any article written here. Especially those written by Glenn Greenwald. I’ve been accused of carrying Glenn’s water before, but only when I’m in lockstep with one of his articles. I don’t always agree with his positions, and have stated that, but I don’t hear from those same GG haters when I disagree with one of his statements or articles. I do, however agree with the overall thrust of TI and Glenn’s journalistic efforts. Thanks for the links, Glenn. Very interesting and informative as I was not aware of the NPR article before today. I noticed on CNN this morning your name was mentioned, unfortunately not in a supportive manner, but what’s that advertising adage?, “there’s no such thing as bad press”, something like that.
The minions, shills, trolls/sociopaths are coming out of the woodwork because their fascist propaganda is threatened and they don’t feel secure without a greedy Bureaucracy protecting them from reality
Yes, I also noticed, one Lousy Cypher has joined ISIS and so has this Fitzpatrick female and one character called Wnt. Previously, CraigSummers used to write lots, but at least he had some sense and was always polite, but these new ones are the royal naga naga variety.
If Snowy is such a hero, maybe he should come back, if the Russians will let him, and try for some OJ justice…
No.
Why, so he can be tortured? Mandela should’ve turned himself in to the South African apartheid govt too (as Glenn points above), right? Assfuckinghole.
It’s kind of a moot point. Russia would never let him leave. It’s suits their purpose to keep him there.
If you know that, then you must be a communist yourself.
Snowden’s physical and moral courage is superlative. Glenn Greenwald’s physical and moral courage is not far behind.
History will remember both for what they undoubtedly are: towering giants of their time. We have the rare opportunity to watch history being made, to witness what later generations will read about in deference and awe.
A “hero” is someone who should come back, so you can apply your fucked up justice system on that person? And pray tell what 2+2 equals in your world.
@NJD:
I predict Snowden will come back one day, that he will be given a hero’s welcome, and maybe he will restore the lost glory of the White House by residing there. We need people with conviction who have the courage to do what is right and to say so without fear or favor. People like you and me come and go without making any difference, but those like Snowden are a blessing to the rest of us.
OJ justice. right. Says Benedict Arnold lll. The framers would shoot you on sight.
Maybe The Times’ published attitude is just sour grapes: these corporate dinos can get badly scooped when news cannot make it through their bureaucratic filters, and surely someone would love to paint that as “responsibility” and such rot. But maybe this is as bad as it reads: here the LA Times makes a clear statement of affiliation against the dissemination of information to the population, including its readership.
This is an anti-news company, now by its own account.
My own decision came in 2003, but there is a response to this. At the risk of sounding like a beer commercial, I don’t always get the Times, but when I do, I sort it into toxic and non-toxic–for the recycler, and for the worms.
Good job Glenn. Ed is one of our greatest patriots. I just hope it doesn’t cost him his life.
A source is a source of course!
I just wonder who’s next and what will we discover next?
Glenn, any chance we’ll see a response from _LA Times_?
Not on your life. The people in power like to make statements. They don’t want to engage in conversation. At least not with riff-raff like you and me. Know your place, you damn plebeian
Well, their comments section for their op-ed certainly isn’t looking good for them. Latest comment:
Hi Coram –
What a beaut that comment was. Nice little grace note to Glenn’s fine article. Do you know if there is some way to e-mail the LAT or their ombudsman or something. I followed the link to the article and tried looking around the site, but didn’t come up with much in the way of contact info. I’d love to send them a word or two, but really don’t wish to create some account and have them start tracking me as well.
So if you or anyone can help in that regard, thanks in advance.
They have some sort of reader’s representative apparently — some fairly recent articles (from 2013) say her name is Deirdre Edgar. She doesn’t seem to have a column like some of the most authentic ombudspeople do, but the LA Times runs a group blog on its website called “Reader’s Representative Journal” and many of the articles there are by Deirdre Edgar. (Actually, a lot of this group blog — http://www.latimes.com/local/readers-rep/ — is more like press releases promoting the LA Times itself.) Whether or not Edgar still has the official status of “reader’s representative”, the LA Times’s website does provide a form to “Contact our Reader’s Representative”: http://www.latimes.com/about/la-contact-our-readers-rep-htmlstory.html . Or you can email readers.rep@latimes.com.
Hi RR –
Wow thanks! There’s a link on the about page, eh? I don’t think I thought of that. I think I’ll use the e-mail link, however. Appreciate the help!
Hi RR and everyone:
Guess what? Just got notification in my inbox that delivery of my e-mail to the readers’ rep at LAT failed to go through. Oh gee…
You’ll smell it if it happens.
How many times have we seen so-called journalists employ a cloaking device for official leaks such as “according to a [name of agency] official who requested anonymity because he is not authorized to speak publicly about the matter?” What are such statements other than outright admissions that the source is breaking the law?
Interesting to note that Snowdon revealed that the UK was keeping an eye on Argentina and her mythical Malvinas claims. Google: ‘Argentina’s Illegitimate Sovereignty Claims’ to see the claim debunked.
SPAM from British propaganda.
Any baked beans for my Spam and toast?
Beyond the fact that Snowden did not reveal anything to the public (he’s not a publisher), those documents were very much newsworthy. For one, they revealed that while Argentina was the GCHQ’s main preoccupation in Latin America, it also had an interest in Venezuela and Colombia. Any idea why that might be?
The documents also described some of the GCHQ’s techniques, which involved planting covert propaganda, discrediting political opponents, using “honey traps” and so forth — all more than newsworthy.
“someone who engages in civil disobedience in a higher cause should be prepared to accept the consequences”
I’ve always thought that one was particularly underhanded. They are perverting a basic tenet of civil disobedience and twisting it into a demand that someone MUST face harsh consequences for their acts rather than to be prepared for that as a possibility. It really is doublespeak at its finest.
They are perverting a basic tenet of civil disobedience and twisting it into a demand that someone MUST face harsh consequences for their acts rather than to be prepared for that as a possibility.
You probably recall how that ‘lack of suffering’ has been applied [ahem] liberally by more than a few of Greenwald’s critics on the so-called left in order to attempt to negate influence the Snowden reporting may have had on that hemisphere of the political polity.
The criteria for sainthood with that bunch puts the Vatican’s paltry list to shame. :-s
There’s a big difference between civil disobedience and sabotage or vandalism…
Glenn, have you submitted this column to the LA Times as a possible op-ed?
Well. Really, what more can one say about a group of journalists who hide behind a title, as opposed to putting their own names and credentials in play, in order to opine that someone else who abides by their own standards – serious, non-partisan, intellectually honest engagement with the world – should be imprisoned for doing so, while they continue blithely spewing government propaganda?
From their mission statement:
Who are these wunderbairns of intellectual honesty who promote rule of law for Snowden over accountability for government officials who destroy the Constitution on a daily business? A sampling:
A few have weightier credentials but those don’t seem to have contributed to an honest evaluation of Snowden’s contributions versus the adamant pursuit of retribution being engaged in by the government.
And how do they regurgitate, excuse me, “formulate” these wonderful institution-wide eructations?
Not likely with examples of independent thought and opinion like the one written about above.
So that’s how they do it!
>”… eructations?” *I’m gonna have to look that one up, baby sister
ps.
Nobody Glenn knows, I bet :)
“>”… eructations?””
Oardenairily I wud abject two sutch filth inn Glenn’s cumments butt Porninska vary disscriminatum inn hur yusage don u no.
Big words can be fun. ;-}
“in recognizing when we are wrong and when our positions shift in light of new developments or information. ”
Pretty neat trick to minimize your errors when you eschew a source of information.
I have mixed feelings here because I think the line of ‘whistleblower’ vs. ‘insanely irresponsible behavior’ is entirely subjective. I think people cut Snowden a lot of slack because the phone metadata program and a couple of other key points so overshadowed everything else and seemed like an obvious, collective point of emphasis. That said, one could use the logic of “Hey, I care about people in other countries!” to leak almost anything. You could use more or less the same argument and apply it to leaking military information to save troops in foreign countries, and yet I think there would be zero expectation that reporters should be expected to be supportive in that scenario. We simply do not live in a world that is entirely egalitarian in every way.
We SHOULD know if our military is doing horrible things to people they claim to be liberating.
I meant disclosing the location of troops in battle, etc.
Who does that?
Who said someone was doing that? Let’s not go that route under an article where the author himself bemoaned, in italics, the confusion between discussing principles, and comparisons.
I’m guessing that you think you’re being serious, it’s hard to tell, because what you write is so absurd. But in case you aren’t be serious, would you please keep in mind that there is one satirist here already who outshines your feeble attempts at satire (if that’s what that was), to a height and quality that renders your attempts at satire inane. Again, though, I’m pretty sure you were being serious. And, if so, your comment is too lame to bother with, except to note that your logic would also apply to saying, “I care about people” and so that would carry no caveats at all in how to deal with people who are murderous or dangerous in one way or another. Maybe you can see how silly that is?
Ironically, my intuitions regarding the Snowden leaks have cooled somewhat as I’ve been exposed to the nastiness coming from the GG fan club. I guess I see it as the fruit of a certain brand of libertarian thinking. Admittedly, that’s probably unfair to Snowden, but emotions tend to be the wheels that move axioms around.
I assure you that if I had read some of your writings prior to ever having read any of “GG’s” writings I would have noticed what a dolt you are and told you so. Your irrelevant “fan club” excuse or lash out is just more of the same dolt personality shining through. What you wrote in the comment I replied to was remarkably strange and foolish. I take full responsibility for having said that about it. No credit to “GG” is necessary or true.
I’m sorry you feel that way. Really, I mean that.
No you don’t Nic, you don’t mean that at all.
Yer sew cool “ExpatZ”, you totally just like, get it and stuff, you know, so you don’t have to explain stuff you say because people who don’t get it like you do just don’t get it, man. Cause you’re super sick and you have a tewtally rebellious name that’s like against stuff, and stuff. I can only hope one day you’ll teach me to be psychic like you.
@commenter Nic – don’t worry! I read the exchange above with commenter Kitt, and trust me, YOU are not the one who comes out of it looking like “the dolt.”
Thanks Eisenheim, although I don’t think anyone here is a dolt. People just get emotional sometimes, we’re all human.
Yes, and I could urinate on an electrical outlook and injure myself very badly. But, hey! I didn’t.
You are merely trying to project your own sociopathic, conservative behaviour or wants onto others.
FAiL!
Yes, I am a sociopath, out to get you Nate (if you hear something, it’s the sound of me rolling my eyes). The important thing is that you’re not getting paranoid or anything. (Also, just a tip, if you want to imply people say things because they are projecting, best not to call them a sociopath in the next breath. If anyone thinks to reverse this same principle it makes you look a little suspect. No one here is sociopathic, and an insult is not a real response.)
I understand and sympathize with your plight. You’re torn by an internal struggle between what’s intellectually and morally right and your innate hyper-sense of deference and awe for authority and compulsion to submit to it.
Wrong but cute, thanks.
I appreciate that you defend yourself against comments such as that, and with a sense of humor. My comment about you being a dolt should be rephrased and amended to what I really meant, which is that some of your comments come off as, to me, doltish, and sometimes offensive. I don’t know what you, yourself, as a person are like or all about. I can only express an informed opinion about your comments, not about you. But notice that I attribute my opinion of your comments only to the commenter, and not some club, as in “GG fan club.” Even though I don’t understand how you come to some of your conclusions, or agree with them, I don’t have the animosity that I have towards, for example, CraigSummers. I also know him only through comments, but there is a vast difference between how horrid his commenting is as opposed to yours, which I find bothersome but not egregious.
I realize that is all a ‘FWIW’ reply to you, but that’s what I felt I needed and wanted to do, so there it is.
Thanks Kitt, I appreciate your saying that.
Well well well..if it isn’t the posterchild for Great Moments in Stupidity.
Good and honorable points Nic, but I don’t think you, the LA Times, or even Greenwald quite managed to make the right distinction. The question is: are you a loyal nationalist or a patriot? A loyal nationalist says “When we fight people abroad, nothing must be done that is likely to end up helping them against us, including disclosing relevant secrets.” But being a patriot, at least in the USA, means something different. A patriot in the USA believes, first and foremost, in guarding liberty against any government that might oppress us. Spying by the NSA and its allies threatens very much to undermine the basis of that liberty in the USA and elsewhere, more so than anything being done by a rival superpower or by a weak terrorist group. Thoughtful patriots see this, and so recognize the NSA’s spying as a threat to what we hold dear. This very serious threat is one in which we Americans, and ordinary people overseas, are on the same side. So to a patriot, though not to a loyal nationalist, it is good to make common cause with innocent people overseas against the NSA’s abuses. That’s how Snowden seems to see it, and the general thrust of the Snowden revelations has followed that strategy; Snowden shares responsibility for the general strategy but isn’t responsible for the decision on whether to publish any one particular item. If you recognize that the most serious threat to our liberties in military-related areas is based on the work of surveillance enterprises like the NSA and its competitors rather than traditional foreign threats like Terrorism, then it’s natural to seek some kind of cooperation with innocent people overseas who share the same interests in that regard.
The LA Times editors, wearing the blinders of loyal nationalists, don’t see that — and Greenwald, despite his usual sharpness, may in this case have not quite grasped where the LA Times was coming from. I think the Times deserved serious criticism here, just not quite the same criticism Greenwald dished out. And the Times editors also, for reasons related to their loyal-nationalist standpoint, aren’t too good on the facts when they describe the USA Freedom Act as “ending the U.S. National Security Agency’s bulk collection of Americans’ telephone records”. That quote is almost certainly false given NSA’s legal/technical slipperiness and lack of truly independent oversight.
So I think Nic missed the point. The real argument isn’t about cutting Snowden slack on revealing NSA’s foreign operations because of the outstanding value of his domestic revelations — that argument might have its place but it’s not what’s needed here. Snowden made a strategic choice — I think the right one — based on the status of current technology, on how technology is likely to grow in future, and on how power and unaccountability are distributed globally. That included stirring up ordinary Americans, along with ordinary people overseas, to fight surveillance systems (part of the upshot of his actions is that rival spy agencies overseas will also encounter more resistance). Threats like the NSA that are buried in the hidden and not-very-accountable corners of power systems deserve our concern more than the things a loyal nationalist worries about. BTW, even though I think NSA is currently doing more harm than good from a patriot’s perspective, I don’t want to simply do without technological surveillance of foreign countries. It would be better to impose some serious rules and accountability on the surveillance enterprises in our country. But that will take a long time.
Thanks for the thoughtful reply, Randall. I don’t agree but I think this at least gives a plausible counterargument / framework for Snowden’s actions other than “Fuck you, man” (because they kind of come across as a great big libertarian ‘down with the man’ middle finger in some areas, i.e. using the momentum from one revelation to piggyback in many more that are potentially damaging to the US). Again, even if I don’t agree I am somewhat more sympathetic to this way of thinking (I’m sympathetic to him as a human because I think humans should strive to treat other humans well, but at a larger philosophical level, I mean). Society is not an entirely open source project, and there is a reason for that. You wouldn’t want a world where anyone could rearrange everything based on their preferences or whims about ‘how things should be’ – and yet, like mutations in evolution, we still rely on this system to move forward, hoping there will be at least one good framework mutation per every gazillion mistakes every now and then. The noble progressive heroes vs. sinister disrupters are usually decided in hindsight. Again, though, the ‘goodness’ of a change can really only be measured in hindsight. So while I think it should matter if Snowden acted with good intent, there is a lot more to be said about whether it was true good intent in a more global sense or the misguided, reckless thinking of one person.
You say your previous impression of Snowden’s actions was that they were, in some areas, “a great big libertarian ‘down with the man’ middle finger”. I hope I convinced you that this wasn’t his motivation, but I’m trying to listen to Snowden more carefully. I don’t think his actions fit neatly into our existing political categories, such as “libertarian”. Widespread electronic surveillance by governments and the major corporations which are loosely allied with them has the potential to create as great a change in statecraft as the introduction of parliamentary representation, more or less undoing many of the gains that parliamentary representation won. At a historical moment when such a great change in statecraft is possible, we can’t expect our existing political categories to apply neatly to those who are most engaged in dealing with that potential change, like Snowden. I know a lot of people have a tendency to look at politics through the lens of “Do these people belong to my political grouping or to the rival political groupings I hate?” Josh Marshall of Talking Points Memo is a good example of a person who thinks that way (being pretty much a loyal servant of the Democratic party), and people like him quickly classified Snowden as a libertarian and opposed him for that reason. But I see Snowden’s stance as more of an emergent synthesis of different political views: American constitutional patriotism, libertarianism, civil libertarianism, support for civil society against governments, loyalty to the Internet and technology as a source of progress. He’s still working it through. I think we do need new thinking and not reflexive typecasting. Those who see the world in loyal nationalist terms made the same sort of mistake in classifying Snowden as those who saw him in familiar partisan terms; the nationalists thought “He’s opposing the American government in war-related issues, he must be a Chinese agent or a Russian agent”. The truth is that he was trying to do something kind of new, and although the old categories don’t quite fit, the enthusiastic response from millions suggests he’s onto something. No one does what Snowden did — giving up a pleasant and exciting life, expecting to maybe be killed, dealing with risks that are very difficult to deal with effectively, meticulously planning how to inform the world of something very important — just because they want to give government the middle finger.
I do, of course, agree with you that what matters most is good results and not good intentions, and sometimes you don’t get sufficient clarity about whether the results were good until more time has passed. I want to emphasize, though, that Snowden acted not merely because he thought NSA’s current actions are awful, but much more because he recognized the danger that it would lead to much worse in future.
Still, I feel you and I have gotten too wrapped up in evaluating Snowden, who’s just one person. It should be recognized that what matters is not so much “Did this one guy do a good thing or make a mistake?” but more issues like “What will happen if the public ever comes to accept Big Brother?”, “How could capabilities like the NSA’s, or a future NSA’s, be used to dominate the population and the world of information?”, “What are the best strategies for using, preserving, and expanding the various accountability mechanisms we have to ensure that these terrible things don’t happen?” The more you take these issues seriously, the more you move away from a loyal nationalist’s perspective and towards a patriot’s, which is a good thing.
. Even apart from my interpretation of his motivation, I would be suspicious of any idea that he was motivated by just wanting to give the middle finger in a “down with the man”
“LA TIMES EDITORS ADVOCATE PROSECUTION OF SOURCES”
No, they do not.
They are advocating, with perfect justification, the prosecution of a person who, in addition to being a source of information about certain dubious NSA practices related to Americans – so a “whistle-blower”, is *also* a person who leaked highly classified material about the perfectly legal and perfectly justified US spying activities targeting totalitarian governments like Russia, China and Iran, and imperialist Islamofascist terrorist organizations – not to mention his stealing of nearly a million DoD documents. By doing that, he weakened the defense of our western civilized world *immeasurably*.
It is this second aspect of his activities that makes him a traitor, and while it is understandable that his facilitator is defending his BFF, it is nothing but a truly laughable and truly pathetic attempt to – again – conceal the essence of this case behind a TL;DR wall of empty babble.
Louise: Then shouldn’t the LA Times condemn Petraeus as well?
“not to mention his stealing of nearly a million DoD documents.”
Loowheeze Cyphilis hunnee how u manaj to faithfooly reegurjumtate (aych/tee Porninska) sush bigg numburz wiht awl thoze Enn Ess Ay appendajez in u mouf?
teh skillz in sush an accumplishment wud poot teh Happee Hookur to shaem don u no.
Personal attacks never enhance your argument. Duh.
I disagree. LAT hits the nail on the head. Snowden was my hero while he exposed privacy violations against the American people, but non Americans do not enjoy such rights from the US government. Snowden blew the lid off a trillion dollar spy operation that was complying with US law, which he had an obligation to protect. Blame the media for exposing it and not Snowden, surely even Glen understands the basic tenants of journalism, does he not? Journalists have a right to report, but Snowden did not.
“…a trillion dollar spy operation that was complying with US law…”
Um, no, it was not complying with US law. It was complying with a very self-serving interpretation of US law by a select few government lawyers who wanted to carry their administration’s water. That interpretation was not ever challenged in court (they were careful never to let it come to that), and elements of the program itself were adjudicated to be illegal on the rare instances they were brought before a court.
Mable hunnee Im gald two sea u ghet ovar ideeuh thet wee shud be charitubble wiht loosewheez beacos off hur amichur positium. Sheas know amichur hunnee. Loosewheeze haf rollodecks uf awl en ess aye an boozey alum manidgemint don u no.
Loosewheez fourtolled manee thymes in n skripshur hunnee.
Hunnee loosewheeze iss vary wite in hur sapellcur an she knot practicum gud hijeans. Soe shee haf awl uncleenness ‘down thar’ don u no.
Myrtle sweathart i jus cumplimentin Loowheeze on hur tekneeq.
it taek pyur talunt to sweez awl tehm tinee thinz in wun orul cavumtee.
an efen ef u haev talunt it taeks lotta praktis to preform sush akts uv phelatitoree skil. withowt a sayftee nut.
Myrna mite bee jellus uv Loowheeze rolloverdex butt i haev hiyer standturdz don u no.
Ha!
Porninska hunnee wee risspekt u butt u shud not bee speeckin inn Minkoff naem. Wee moar airutight an haf stanturds two upholed.
Sorry Myrtle. Couldn’t help myself after she regurgitated my reegurjitayshun. ;-}
Finally…the Minksters shake off the mothballs. Where the Dickens have you gals been?
Discourse at its finest because of that inimitable frill.
Very little in anything published from the Snowden material had to do with spying on governments, except maybe the German and Brazilian governments. Spying on adversaries is not newsworthy, so why would anyone publish that? Also, I’m willing to bet Russia, China and Iran didn’t learn anything of interest from the Snowden material they didn’t already know. If you have concrete information otherwise, let’s see it.
So why did Snowden take millions of documents that were about spying on governments?
Snowden has repeatedly said that many of the documents he gave to journalists were for background; so the journalists could understand all the pieces. He never intended that all of the documents be published and left specific decisions to the reporters’ vetting and discretion.
I’m not sure that makes it ok. It would seem irresponsible to to delegate decisions about national security to journalists (especially concerning a set of documents he could not possibly have read or even scanned in person).
Seriously, leave American national security up to the discretion of foreign journalists?
Actually, Snowden delegated decisions about the public interest to journalist. Just as many whistleblowers have done before, including Daniel Ellsberg and the FBI Burglars who released documents about COINTELPRO and the Church Committee hearings.
Glenn Greenwald, Laura Poitras and Bart Gellman are all American citizens.
Whether it’s national security or the public interest (one being a subset of the other), it also seems very undemocratic to leave decisions to unelected and unaccountable journalists.
It’s not. Take a look at the First Amendment and the free press clause. Thomas Jefferson perhaps put it best:
There’s a reason the man felt that strongly.
“Seriously, leave American national security up to the discretion of foreign journalists?”
“Seriously, leave American national security up to the discretion of the US government?”
How can leaking for political gain be better than leaking to inform the public?
If you’re suggesting we should disband the government and put journalists in charge (which I don’t think is a form of government called for by the Constitution) then we’ll just have to agree to disagree!
Not sure Snowden ‘petitioned the Government for a redress of grievances’, come to think of it…
PB wrote:
I assume that was a joke, but in any case, no, it is call for a more transparent government, one where starting aggressive wars, torturing people, and, yes, even leaking specific things that should be kept secret but which are beneficial to one’s career, get you in real trouble..
Peter Ball, now you’re just waxing moronic. Thomas Jefferson was not calling for the abolition of the government he helped establish. You know what his anti-authoritarian point is — you just don’t like it.
Peter Ball
Daniel Ellsberg took tens of thousands of top secret documents without authorization and gave them to the New York Times, asking them to publish the ones they thought were in the public interest.
Are you one of those people who agrees with the Nixon administration that Ellsberg was a criminal who deserved to go to prison, and that he acted undemocratically?
If I give an apple to a hungry person, I am not usurping Democracy’s ability to determine policy regarding the poor. The “undemocratic” meme is particularly unpersuasive.
It’s a pity you’ve had to resort to an insult, at which point I’m afraid I’m off to find someone nicer. For the record though I do like Jefferson’s approach to most things – especially the French!
I didn’t insult you, Peter — I accurately characterized your “argument.” But it is true that I’m not nice. That not suffering fools gladly thing was mostly written for Glenn, but also applies to me.
What evidence do you have that he did this?
None.
You just made this up.
“What evidence do you have that he did this?”
http://www.businessinsider.com/how-many-docs-did-snowden-take-2013-12
I realize you won’t necessarily believe what NSA said, but I didn’t make it up. Can you tell this forum how many he did actually take?
Well gee, let’s see. First of all, the article you linked refers to 1.7 million documents. Since the number 1 is a singular qualifier, Snowden would have had to have taken at least 2 million documents for it to be characterized as “millionS of documents.” Then there’s the issue of just how many of those documents were about spying on governments. Certainly not all of them were. One then has to ask if there were even a single million documents taken that were about spying on governments. In any case, it’s pretty much impossible that Snowden took “millions” of documents about spying on governments if the number is 1.7 million. So that’s just hyperbole on your part.
Secondly, of what importance is it to know how many documents he took? Even the NSA has no idea what the actual number is…and it’s irrelevant anyway. The documents prove that the NSA engaged in operations that were patently illegal under any reasonable interpretation of U.S. law, and not just in my opinion. Whether it was one document or a million, illegal activity was shown to have occurred. That alone justifies Snowden’s action in revealing it. So I really don’t know what it is you think you’re trying to prove here, but it’s not working whatever it is.
Time for some Sunday morning Journalism 101.
A “source” is someone who furnishes information to a journalist which the journalist then uses to report.
All of the information Snowden disclosed – all of it – was given to journalists, who then used it to report. None of it was disclosed directly from Snowden. That means he’s a “source” in all cases. The fact that you think some of those articles shouldn’t have been published may mean you have an argument with the newspaper or editors in question (usually the WashPost or NYT in the case of the most controversial stories), or even with Snowden himself. But it doesn’t remotely detract from his status as a “source.”
Therefore, by advocating for his criminal prosecution for doing this, the LAT Editorial Board is, by definition, advocating for the prosecution of sources, exactly as I said. That’s particularly so since their rationale – one who breaks the law must suffer consequences – applies to all sources who leak classified information.
Whether Louise Cypher likes the ensuing article or not has no bearing whatsoever on the person’s status as a “source.”
No, they are advocating for the prosecution of a specific individual; and not because he passed material to journalists, but because he stole it in the first place.
Apparently you missed this in Glenn’s piece:
No I managed to read that far, and don’t find that paragraph at all convincing. It’s a matter of degree – leaking one document about one thing is bad (and people who think it’s bad are not necessarily ‘demanding imprisonment’ for the individuals, rather they are expecting some due process that might be a disciplinary action at work, or it might be a police investigation if bad enough). Stealing hundreds of thousands of very highly classified documents is pretty extreme, hence the enthusiasm is some quarters for criminal prosecution.
Could you detail where in the law (The Espionage Act in particular) it provides that there is a certain amount of classified information that is permissibly leaked, after which the prohibition applies?
PB:
Where did they state that? Or are you arguing that the normal laws of logic regarding the implications of the the LAT writes are suspended?
“…he stole it in the first place.”
Actually a case could probably be made that the NSA stole the information first, and that Snowden just notified the world of the theft…
In any event, that’s a neat trick. The only information that can be passed to journalists is that which is not “stolen,” i.e. taken without permission, i.e. permitted to be released. Is that it?
^ Notice that the facilitator neither here or in the screed above addressed the *essence* of this paragraph in the LAT editorial:
“Snowden didn’t limit his disclosures to information about violations of Americans’ privacy. He divulged other sensitive information about traditional foreign intelligence activities, including a document showing that the NSA had intercepted the communications of then-Russian President Dmitry Medvedev during a Group of 20 summit in London in 2009. A government contractor who discloses details of U.S. spying on another country is not most Americans’ idea of a whistleblower.”
Here is Greenwald’s quote (notice where the cutoff point is):
“The other rationale cited by LA Times editors for Snowden’s imprisonment is that “Snowden didn’t limit his disclosures to information about violations of Americans’ privacy,” but rather “divulged other sensitive information about traditional foreign intelligence activities.””
The *essence* of this paragraph is left out, and it is this:
“including a document showing that the NSA had intercepted the communications of then-Russian President Dmitry Medvedev during a Group of 20 summit in London in 2009. ”
The facilitator then continues in his usual style, invoking all of the following faux-examples and faux-reasons:
“the 95% of the planet called “non-Americans”, “entire populations in Europe, or Latin America, or Asia”, “foreign companies”, “humans rights organizations”, “climate change conferences”, “the Abu Grahib abuses”, “CIA black sites”, “civilian deaths by drones”, “the irrelevant, rights-free group called non-Americans”, “other populations”, and tops it all with this idiotic rationalization by the traitor himself (remember, we are still actually – if not in Greenwald spinland – on the topic of Medvedev):
“Suspicionless surveillance does not become okay simply because it’s only victimizing 95% of the world instead of 100%.”
So, shorter Greenwald: NSA was wrong to spy on Medvedev, because “reasons”. Traitor Snowden stealing and disclosing the fact that NSA performed its *very purpose* is to be applauded and NSA action is to be condemned and seen as a horrible, vile, abominable overreach, because “humanity”.
Totalitarians’ Privacy Matters.
Terrorists’ Privacy Matters.
It is utter, utter lunacy. Thank heavens that people like Greenwald aren’t tasked with protecting our children’s right to life and making sure that they can sleep safely at night in their beds without having their throats cut by some “poor, marginalized, oppressed, victimized” person, and with protecting their right to a future in a republic founded on liberty instead in the clutches of the dictator currently shielding Snowden from justice, or under the rule of Chinese totalitarians who learned from Snowden the specific details of NSA operations , or the rule of Islamofascist imperialists who already managed to impose their internal Muslim blasphemy code as a de-facto law governing western societies who learned from Snowden how to better hide their murderous plots which intend to make the subjugation of our democracies to their medieval barbarian irrationality total.
“including a document showing that the NSA had intercepted the communications of then-Russian President Dmitry Medvedev during a Group of 20 summit in London in 2009. ”
You think the Russians were surprised that the NSA was spying on them?
“You think the Russians were surprised that the NSA was spying on them?”
*sigh*
More to the point the document probably contained some information the Russians wanted to pass along, for whatever purpose.
“Do you even know how to read? He’s talking about suspicionless surveillance. It’s right there in the quote.”
– calm down; I was making a general point. Is that banned here?
Everyone has a right to privacy, including terrorists and totalitarians. But it’s a qualified right, that legal codes, constitutions and conventions across the globe recognize can be interfered with if there is good reason to do so. This is why NSA spying on foreign countries and individuals who would do us harm is perfectly legitimate and legal.
Do you even know how to read? He’s talking about suspicionless surveillance. It’s right there in the quote.
I hope Mr. Greenwald uses this as one of the back cover blurbs on his next book. One of my favorite sentences ever!
“It is utter, utter lunacy.”
Loosewheeze hunnee yew cumtinyew two knot reelleyes taht thees thouts inn ur hed ar abut YEW, knot udders. Teh lourd teling u abut ur cumments.
Loosewheez YEW ar Debil in Miss Cyphhillis. Peepls hoo here u risck maddniss don u no.
Thank heavens that people like Greenwald aren’t tasked with protecting our children’s right to life and making sure that they can sleep safely at night in their beds without having their throats cut by some “poor, marginalized, oppressed, victimized” person, and with protecting their right to a future in a republic founded on liberty instead in the clutches of the dictator currently shielding Snowden from justice, or under the rule of Chinese totalitarians who learned from Snowden the specific details of NSA operations , or the rule of Islamofascist imperialists who already managed to impose their internal Muslim blasphemy code as a de-facto law governing western societies who learned from Snowden how to better hide their murderous plots which intend to make the subjugation of our democracies to their medieval barbarian irrationality total.
Dude, you should seriously start writing bodice-rippers.
http://twitpic.com/d1xgee
You’re gonna need to work on those run-on sentences though.
Pam Geller, is that you?
Doh….!!!! Dan I think you may be on to something
So Glenn Greenwald, in about 3 paragraphs, explains why it’s grotesque to ignore the privacy rights of non-Americans, who are 95% of the world’s population, and this is how Louise understood it:
Louise, I knew you were a bigot and xenophobic, but I didn’t think you’d flaunt it in public.
What you fail to understand is that the threat to the vast majority of the Worlds children comes from the USA, and its Imperialist Government who conducts dirty wars for profit, and perpetuates a never ending war against terror for profit by slaughtering innocent civillians.The lives of children in the West are no more precious than the lives of children living in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Vietnam, and its not right to label family members who then seek revenge,as terrorists. You should recognise that targeting civillians with drones and bombs, and commiting war crimes for profit, only breeds hatred. You are clearly trying to radicalise people on this website with your far right wing, narrow minded, authoritarian points of view. Personally I would be far happier with Glenn baby sitting my children than with you, or the twisted, murdering power crazy, imperialist, totalitarian, and Orwellian psychopaths that you seem to support.
“…tasked with protecting our children’s right to life and making sure that they can sleep safely at night in their beds without having their throats cut by some “poor, marginalized, oppressed, victimized” person”
I missed that Amendment in the Bill of Rights. Where does it say that? And what’s so special about protecting our children, what about protecting adults as well? I’m more in danger of some poor, marginalized, and/or insane American killing me in my bed than I am from some Islamic nutcase.
“…and with protecting their right to a future in a republic founded on liberty instead in the clutches of the dictator currently shielding Snowden from justice”
Say what you will, Putin was elected and Russia is at least nominally a democracy. He is not a “dictator.” And what he’s shielding Snowden from is not “justice” but political persecution. An odd reversal, for Russia to give political asylum to an American. Embarrassing, too.
“…or under the rule of Chinese totalitarians who learned from Snowden the specific details of NSA operations”
Baloney. Totally baseless.
“…or the rule of Islamofascist imperialists who already managed to impose their internal Muslim blasphemy code as a de-facto law governing western societies who learned from Snowden how to better hide their murderous plots which intend to make the subjugation of our democracies to their medieval barbarian irrationality total.”
Wake me when the ISIS navy stands offshore and their millions-strong army invades. Until then, I’m confident that our way of life is not threatened by a few thousand religious fanatics half a world away who can’t even take down a tinpot dictator nobody likes like Assad.
Achtung Mona & Glenn Greenwald re: Louise Cypher’s: “It is utter, utter lunacy” — a quirk in expression seized upon here by commenter myrtleminkofflandover. The somewhat redundant and over-dramatic repetition of the adjective (and the corresponding adverb) is a pretentious affectation common and pretty much peculiar to England’s (self-consciously:) ‘educated’ elite, and most especially perhaps to those of privilege who get themselves into Oxford (a la Cameron, et al). I am tempted to find it awfully telling, therefore, that it is a locution beloved by the former Tory MP Louise Mensch, nee Bagshawe, herself an Oxford graduate. Cf. “utter, utter” + “utterly utterly” / Louise Mensch @ Google:- e.g., “utterly utterly oxymoronic”, twitter, 4 Mar 2015; “utter, utter bollocks”, twitter, 11 Aug 2014; “utterly utterly awful”, twitter, 27 Mar 2014; “utterly utterly vile”, twitter, 6 Jun 2013; “utter, utter bollocks”, LM interview @ London’s Evening Standard, 15 Feb 2013; and, here for good measure, “utter, utter nonsense”, in VENUS ENVY (1998), a characteristically vulgar romantic novel by one Louise Bagshawe (> Mensch). Thus, Mona, I rest my case: Louise Cypher = Louise Bagshawe = the Class A botoxic hack, Louise Mensch by now @ NYC c/o AC/DC (cf. Wikipedia). — Do I hereby threaten to violate someone’s privacy? Thing is, as a vociferously vehement, venomous, vitriolic, and 2 x utterly vulgar UK public figure, Louise Mensch has used (< abused) her podium before now to condemn, with intellectually incontinent and even moronic diatribes, the likes of Snowden, Greenwald, Appelbaum, and even Rusbridger. So I reckon a little transparency re: the ID of Louise Cypher is here, at last, called for. (Someone try and tell me I'm wrong.)
Oh, soft libel in the comments’ section; my favorite kind.
I haven’t followed the Snowden leaks as carefully as I should have — clearly — because I did not read the articles revealing “perfectly justified US spying activities targeting totalitarian governments”. I’ve read articles about surveillance of politicians in Germany, businesses in Brazil, and everyone in Bermuda, Somalia, Iran and Afghanistan. About surveillance of universities and hospitals in China. About the “Five Eyes” nations of New Zealand, Australia, Canada, and the U.K. I’ve lately read a few articles about France’s jealous desire to catch up with us — to at least place or show in the Orwell Stakes.
But, I haven’t read anything novel about our activities vis-a-vis those who do give us a run for our money. Articles regarding our surveillance practices in Iran, Afghanistan or Somalia came as a revelation, sure……………. to the American citizenry. The surveyed have been shooting down our drones for ~7-8 years now, shuffling SIM cards for nearly as long, and would have been less than surprised by the coverage. (Particularly since a fair bit of our surveillance capability in these theaters had already been discussed before, in publications that relied on natsec sources for tidbits about it all. When the sourcing was laudatory & approved a lot of detail came out, and there wasn’t a whimper from those who’re hissing and spitting now).
NO. The rabid ranting and chomping about Snowden is not due to some honest patriot’s anguish. He embarrassed the powerful by letting the taxpayers who fund them know a bit about the breadth & depth of questionable expenditures made in our name. Some fair chunk of which involves surveillance of us. All of which rides on a cushion of contempt for us.
Repeatedly over the past 2 years, after a carefully timed hiatus, some high level spokesman comes out claiming Snowden’s revelations endangered our men on the ground. However, the details of how, where and when he did so are never, ever discussed. The argument that they could not be revealed safely would be valid, but it’s never even made. Which suggests the charge is — each time, in each carefully placed attack — either false or painfully weak. And every time this charge is made, it is made with the unspoken assumption that the American electorate’s right to know what is done in their name is too small a thing to give any consideration. The contempt for us mere citizens among the important “hard men” is so great it’s impossible to miss; it leaks out of everything they write or say.
If we were still a great democracy, enmeshed in an existential struggle with “totalitarian governments”, this level of contempt would seem out of place, wouldn’t it.
You don’t spend as much time here as I might wish, but when you do pop in you sure don’t waste time tinkering around the edges.
Thanks for the above, witheringly succinct offering.
@Louise Cypher
If Obama had released all of the documents that Snowden did, would Obama have been a traitor? What about Bush, would Bush have been a traitor?
What I am trying to figure out is whether you are toe sucking the current president, every president, or you whether you believe that your are the arbiter of traitorism?
If you believe that Obama or any other president wouldn’t be a traitor, and you will salute whatever the president (or certain presidents) send up their flag pole, then all of this pretending to have the vapors over weakening the defense of the nation is just an act. You will do whatever you are told by the president and you will smile, salute and swallow.
If you believe that Obama or any other president would be a traitor for releasing the same information then, while you are at least consistent with your beliefs, you are now well on your way to starting a cult/secessionist movement. I suggest using the word “Freedom” in your organization’s title. Don’t do a thing with your name–it’s perfect.
So what is it to be, a back massage for Obama, or thirty acres in Texas?
“or you whether you believe that your are the arbiter of traitorism?”
Nonsense. No man is the arbiter of that; only the Supreme Law of the Land is pertinent here, and treason is clearly defined in the Constitution:
“Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort.”
By divulging sensitive information about lawful foreign intelligence activities of US Government targeting US enemies (Islamofascist terrorists who wage war against the United States of America and the entire free world), Edward Snowden gave aid to these enemies of the United States. He is, therefore, guilty of treason.
End of story.
Louise you idjit, Edward Snowden has not been charged with treason. Further, while there may be some unhinged neocon lawyer somewhere calling for it, even most rightwing attorneys know better than to claim Snowden has committed treason as per the Constitution.
@Louise Cypher
Come on now, don’t just create a persona and then turn them into a coward because you are too lazy to treat your craft with any respect. The Louise Cypher we have grown to know and love wouldn’t back down from such easily answered questions and run away with her tail between her legs.
Why create a character and then cop out when things get slightly interesting. If the point is to discredit your enemies by writing them as fools, then that really doesn’t accomplish what you think it does. When you play what you consider an unsympathetic character you really need to try and understand their motivations. Bad guys are the hardest to write because we find it hard to empathize with and understand our enemies.
I think the Louise Cypher character deserves better than the half hearted effort you have shown here.
You’re really are Pam Geller!
Are you really are sure?
Cf. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louise_Mensch (nee Bagshawe). Cave: seriously botoxic (Class A).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KH4dQZw8SSE
You decide.
Louise Untermensch
Yeah, rather like “Unfashionista”, the name of the hack Louise Mensch’s blog-site. (See there her intellectually incontinent diatribes from 2013 re: Miranda, Greenwald, and Rusbridger.)
By “prosecution,” do you mean a legitimate Art. III proceeding in which (i) Snowden would be permitted to assert the public necessity defense; and (ii) the USG would be required to prove–via the presentation of facts, rather than innuendo and hiding behind the lame it’s-classified! defense–how disclosure “immeasurably” “weakened the defense” not only of the US but of “our western civilized world.” Didn’t think so…
But assume Snowden were tried as you demand, and you were called for jury duty, i.e., you were given a chance to help save western civilization. On voir dire, when asked by judge, prosecutor, or defense counsel (i) whether you were familiar with the Snowden case; and (ii) whether you’ve formed an opinion about Snowden and/or the allegations against him, what would your answer be?
They are advocating, with perfect justification, the prosecution of a person who, in addition to being a source of information about certain dubious NSA practices related to Americans – so a “whistle-blower”, is *also* a person who leaked highly classified material about the perfectly legal and perfectly justified US spying activities targeting totalitarian governments like Russia, China and Iran, and imperialist Islamofascist terrorist organizations – not to mention his stealing of nearly a million DoD documents. By doing that, he weakened the defense of our western civilized world *immeasurably*.
I’m sorry, this is utter nonsense. Greenwald adequately defined journalism 101, so I’d like to focus on those horrible totalitarian governments and the western civilized world. While at it, you might pay a visit to some of the bigger American cities and chat to a few black ghetto residents about totalitarian government. You sound like a bubble residing American white woman, I’m sorry to say.
Without falling into the false dichotomies that are almost inevitable it seems, meaning without defending those other unpleasant governments you mention, it’s laughably ignorant to talk about the western civilized world without at least offering some definition of ‘civilized’. I suspect you mean wealthy.
Certainly in the 19th century the British may have been the most free nation – but not the Indians, whom the British treated so poorly, the Nazis could have taken lessons. Is that what you mean by civilized? Late 19th century, very early 20th, was certainly a beacon of civilization. To this day, Leopold of Belgium appears on coins. Yet he murdered 10 million Congolese. That’s more than The Holocaust capitalized if you can count – not as fast, but then technology wasn’t up to scratch.
Russia, especially the old USSR, may well have been an oppressive government, but their aggression didn’t extend so very far. It’s doubtful that they treated their own sphere of influence, so called, nearly so poorly as the USA treated theirs. No state has engaged even remotely in as much international terror since WWII as the USA. America may treat SOME of its own people well enough, but it has regularly destroyed any semblance of democracy rising in Latin America for the last century and then some. Even those who were not only democratic, but emulated America’s own domestic policies – those latter types, like Guatamala, seem to hold a special place in our vicious hearts as they continue to suffer to this day, which is more than half a century since we crushed their own freedoms, and certainly more than your bubble existence will ever permit you to begin to appreciate.
Do you believe in God, Louise? Because loyalty to God is the antithesis of your notion of patriotism. Are you a humanist? Because humanism is the antithesis of patriotism. These are not false dichotomies, these are real dichotomies. I hate to be so trite, but you cannot serve two masters. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. Take your pick of clichés, aphorisms, sayings… whatever you like.
I am American by identity. By identity, I mean culture and genomes both. Indeed, I’ve been American since before the revolutionary war, which makes me a helluva lot more American than 90% of those blow-ins and opportunists you have affixed your loyalty to. Being American does not bring with it loyalty to fascists, enslavement to the rich or to special interests. Being American simply means that I AM America, in part.
Edward Snowden did not betray ME. He is not a traitor to ME. If anything, he is loyal to the real America, the America of dreams and hopes, not the America of strip malls and the military industrial complex. He is loyal to humanity and, if you wish, to God. That is about as patriotic as one can get.
You cannot boast about freedom of speech and then disclaim the use of it on the basis of patriotism. Enjoy your freedoms, just so long as you don’t use them. America is not a collection of some precious glass menagerie (h/t Tennessee Williams).
Besides, you mention “perfectly legal and perfectly justified US spying activities targeting totalitarian governments like Russia, China and Iran, and imperialist Islamofascist terrorist organizations” as though you know what you’re talking about. Assertions without detail. I seriously doubt he has compromised any real (and useful) operations – considering the vast amount of material, perhaps a tiny number of such things may have happened. Collateral Damage. You know “collateral damage”, right? Ask me about several million Vietnamese.
“Greenwald adequately defined journalism 101″
Which has, of course, exactly *zero* relation – in the usual Greenwaldian manner – to what I detailed above is the essence of the LAT editorial’s case, exemplified on the case of NSA listening to Medvedev, and traitor Snowden disclosing this to his journalistic facilitator.
“Do you believe in God, Louise?”
No. Only mental toddlers need that dumb invented crutch to help them find meaning in their worthless lives.
“Are you a humanist?”
It’s hard to know what people think when they use this term. Let’s put it this way: if Glenn Greenwald’s position is humanism, I am anti-humanist.
“It’s doubtful that they treated their own sphere of influence, so called, nearly so poorly as the USA treated theirs.”
Oh dear. Oh dear oh dear oh dear. That someone who is apparently in possession of an IQ in at least double digits, and therefore in possession of enough cognitive faculties to learn about the history of the 20th century and more specifically about what not only the Soviets themselves but also the peoples of East Germany, Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia and other unfortunate victims of Soviet imperialism suffered for almost half a century, is able to claim something *this* moronic, is truly amazing.
excellent commentary, Terry…..well thought out, and written.
Louise, Western World civilized ?? Murdering hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civillians with bombs, having started a war based on a lie of non existant weapons of mass destruction. Civilised is committing torture and carrying out illegal rendition, and force feeding, and abusing prisoners, many of whom had commited no crimes in Gitmo ? I suppose you would describe the Saudis as civilized to with their lashings and public executions. Civilised to who Louise ? Yourself as a Femi Authoritarian Nazi maybe, but to most people with less extreme minds, more socially caring people that aren’t just focused on wars and killing for profit – no, the West is not civilized at all !!!
your comment reminded me of a Mahatma Gandhi quote….when asked what he thought about Western Civilisation, he suggested: “It would be nice”….
depressing. i wonder who pushed the editorial– was it something strictly mercenary, say, like bruce karsh conflating his management of tribune with his interest in charter communication, a little bit of quid pro quo from the obama justice department, if you prove yourself a good citizen we’ll nod approvingly at this or that merger/expansion/monopoly? pimp a paper and we’ll know you are the man for job, in terms of providing a private sector database of public metadata with a nice dedicated back door? you get rich and we get the data? but am probably being too conspiracy-ish– sad truth is, some schmuck probably pushed the editorial simply because his tail wagged at the thought of some washington VIP smiling about it, no big calculation.
Mr. Greenwald seems to find fault with this, but I would argue that the loyalty of journalists is their most endearing quality.
It may be helpful to compare the behavior of journalists with that of dogs, an animal which Mr. Greenwald reportedly greatly admires. Dogs are dependent on humans for food, but in return give them love and loyalty. If a wolf appears, the dogs will be the first to attack it. They despise a creature which is not dependent on humans and rightly perceive it as a threat.
Similarly, journalists are dependent on the government for feeding them stories, but in return give it love and loyalty. If a non-sanctioned source appears, the journalists will be the first to attack it. They despise a creature which is not dependent on the government and rightly perceive it as a threat.
So Mr. Greenwald is using a double standard – one for dogs and another for journalists. So he must either agree that journalists are laudably loyal, or go on record criticizing the behavior of dogs.
Hah!
One of your better assessments Benito. It’s unfortunate that it slanders dogs by association though. :-)
Fucking brilliant.
Fucking quandary! … I can’t imagine Glenn criticizing dogs./
I k now, but Benito has so outdone himself here that he has total artistic license.
After thinking about this for a while, I think you are implying that all journalists are less than human, and that good journalists are wolves. Even the catholic church, re the recent vote in Ireland, has a more generous definition of humanity than you do. Shame on you Benito!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Running_dog
“Running dog is a literal translation into English of the Chinese/communist pejorative ?? (Chinese: z?u g?u), meaning lackey or lapdog, an unprincipled person who helps or flatters other, more powerful and often evil people. It is derived from the eagerness with which a dog will respond when called by its owner, even for mere scraps.”
A ticker tape parade are the type of consequence I envision for this source.
Dan Rather was the first I noticed to fall in the not so new world order.
True journalists have there work cut out for them. I am glad you’re on our side Glen.
Always a pleasure to read your stuff.
Most journalism schools in the US also have ‘Public Relations’ in their name, which is more descriptive of their actual function. It is unfortunate that people such as Mr. Greenwald, whose training was in law rather than public relations, are given platforms in the media. They are not properly instructed in how to promote the sponsor’s message and consequently have all sorts of distorted views about journalism. Some think it has a role in educating the general public. Others that it should stimulate debate on questions of policy. A few are so misguided, they even think it should be used to disseminate the truth, irregardless of whether this is in the interest of their sponsor.
I recall reading a while back about the need to license journalists. It is far too easy now for people to obtain an internet platform, without any knowledge or training of how to make government actions appear authorized, necessary and proportionate. The result is likely to be a growing distrust of government, leading to a slow paralysis of society. Once society has been rendered completely helpless, it will then fall victim to the first aggressor which crosses its path.
Is it possible for a journalist to be non-sycophantic and yet responsible? I can understand the wishful thinking of those who answer yes, but unfortunately we must live in the real world. Ken Dilanian is the best we can hope for.
Yes!! Need journalistic education! and Journalist certification!!!\
Just look at how successful MBA programs have been. (As an aside, University of Michigan tutition is $53,000 per year for in state residents and $57,000 for out of state residents — such a deal.!)
MBA programs have successfully produced a generation of “managers” who follow the numbers and have facilitated the neo liberal destruction of companies and the economy.
With certified journalists, we could speed up the conquest from the oligarchy!
Typo?
Not only is that [not] valid in the eyes of the LA Times editors but it should be criminal even to reveal it.
Well, this was well said. That it has to be written is simply head-shaking. The only assessment that rationalizes this behavior for me is (1) sheer professional jealousy that the outlet wasn’t the one selected to receive the leaks, or (2) – infinitely more worrisome – they really believe that their primary job is to serve those in power. My fear of the second is why I approach most of the mainstream press/media as though they’re toxic to my personal well-being. Reading/listening skeptically, warily, carefully – for what’s not said as much as what is – is the only way to approach them.
This is the lead to that editorial: With the NSA surveillance program he exposed now reined in, Edward Snowden should come home and face trial
So with that one sentence, the LA Times editorial staff are more than suggesting that “Our work is done here,” as is Snowden’s, as is all journalists who are in possession of the documents, and all other journalists (professional and citizen) who are — were? — in the process of making sense of the documents and of changing the conversation based on what can be learned from the documents. I can’t exaggerate what an exaggeration or oversimplification it is to say, the NSA surveillance program is now reined in.
And yet the “celebration” about the “victory” in Congress was embarrassing by your leader Greenback$.
I guess they mean it’s the one program that a court has found to be unauthorized.
Not “unauthorized.” Illegal. And Judge Richard Leon held it to be likely unconstitutional. (Jurisprudential doctrine foreclosed a final holding at that stage of the litigation.)
Mona I agree ‘illegal’ can mean either not authorized by law, or contrary to law (ie: a felony or misdemeanor). 215 was the former – which is why we’d struggle to find any of the operators of 215 guilty of a crime (for 215, at least!)
It would be quite interesting to see the response in the LAT to this <emactual piece of journalism.
Snowden would get more respect if he’d just leaked details of the 215 program, rather than downloading millions of documents indiscriminately then absconding.
Really excellent summary, Glenn. So glad you took on the CIvil Disobedience nonsense. No, it’s not a requirement that you be Jesus Christ before you can whistleblow or protest an unjust law.
Climate change exaggeration is a crime against humanity in the coming history books.
Seriously? Who’s the fear mongering neocon?
You lazy copy and paste news editors and you Goregressives and your god Obomber can say it’s “PROVEN” but science isn’t “ALLOWED” to say “PROVEN”?
That is why it’s called “belief”.