In February 2010, a man named Joseph Stack deliberately flew his small airplane into the side of a building that housed a regional IRS office in Austin, Texas, just as 200 agency employees were starting their workday. Along with himself, Stack killed an IRS manager and injured 13 others.
Stack was an anti-tax, anti-government fanatic, and chose his target for exclusively political reasons. He left behind a lengthy manifesto cogently setting forth his largely libertarian political views (along with, as I wrote at the time, some anti-capitalist grievances shared by the left, such as “rage over bailouts, the suffering of America’s poor, and the pilfering of the middle class by a corrupt economic elite and their government-servants”; Stack’s long note ended: “the communist creed: From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. The capitalist creed: From each according to his gullibility, to each according to his greed”). About Stack’s political grievances, his manifesto declared that “violence not only is the answer, it is the only answer.”
The attack had all of the elements of iconic terrorism, a model for how it’s most commonly understood: down to flying a plane into the side of a building. But Stack was white and non-Muslim. As a result, not only was the word “terrorism” not applied to Stack, but it was explicitly declared inapplicable by media outlets and government officials alike.The New York Times’s report on the incident stated that while the attack “initially inspired fears of a terrorist attack” — before the identity of the pilot was known — now “in place of the typical portrait of a terrorist driven by ideology, Mr. Stack was described as generally easygoing, a talented amateur musician with marital troubles and a maddening grudge against the tax authorities.”
As a result, said the Paper of Record, “officials ruled out any connection to terrorist groups or causes.” And “federal officials emphasized the same message, describing the case as a criminal inquiry.” Even when U.S. Muslim groups called for the incident to be declared “terrorism,” the FBI continued to insist it “was handling the case ‘as a criminal matter of an assault on a federal officer’ and that it was not being considered as an act of terror.”
By very stark contrast, consider the October 2014, shooting in Ottawa by a single individual, Michael Zehaf-Bibeau, at the Canadian Parliament building. As soon as it was known that the shooter was a convert to Islam, the incident was instantly and universally declared to be “terrorism.” Less than 24 hours afterward, Prime Minister Stephen Harper declared it a terror attack and even demanded new “counter-terrorism” powers in its name (which he has now obtained). To bolster the label, the government claimed Zehaf-Bibeau was on his way to Syria to fight with jihadists, and the media trumpeted this “fact.”
In his address to the nation the day after the shooting, Harper vowed to learn more about the “terrorist and any accomplices he may have had” and intoned: “This is a grim reminder that Canada is not immune to the types of terrorist attacks we have seen elsewhere around the world.” Twitter users around the world en masse used the hashtag of solidarity reserved (for some reason) only for cities attacked by a Muslim (but not cities attacked by their own governments): #OttawaStrong. In sum, that this was a “terror attack” was mandated conventional wisdom before anything was known other than the Muslim identity of the perpetrator.As it turns out, other than the fact that the perpetrator was Muslim and was aiming his violence at Westerners, almost nothing about this attack had the classic hallmarks of “terrorism.” In the days and weeks that followed, it became clear that Zehaf-Bibeau suffered from serious mental illness and “seemed to have become mentally unstable.” He had a history of arrests for petty offenses and had received psychiatric treatment. His friends recall him expressing no real political views but instead claiming he was possessed by the devil.
The Canadian government was ultimately forced to admit that their prior media claim about him preparing to go to Syria was totally false, dismissing it as “a mistake.” Now that Canadians know the truth about him — rather than the mere fact that he’s Muslim and committed violence — a plurality no longer believe the “terrorist” label applies, but believe the attack was motivated by mental illness. The term “terrorist” got instantly applied by know-nothings for one reason: he was Muslim and had committed violence, and that, in the post-9/11 West, is more or less the only working definition of the term (in the rare cases when it is applied to non-Muslims these days, it’s typically applied to minorities engaged in acts that have no resemblance to what people usually think of when they hear the term).
That is the crucial backdrop for yesterday’s debate over whether the term “terrorism” applies to the heinous shooting by a white nationalist of nine African-Americans praying in a predominantly black church in Charleston, South Carolina. Almost immediately, news reports indicated there was “no sign of terrorism” — by which they meant: it does not appear that the shooter is Muslim.
Yet other than the perpetrator’s non-Muslim identity, the Charleston attack from the start had the indicia of what is commonly understood to be “terrorism.” Specifically, the suspected shooter was clearly a vehement racist who told witnesses at the church that he was acting out of racial hatred and a desire to force African-Americans “to go.” His violence was the byproduct of and was intended to publicize and forward his warped political agenda, and was clearly designed to terrorize the community he hates.
That’s why so many African-American and Muslim commentators and activists insisted that the term “terrorist” be applied: because it looked, felt and smelled exactly like other acts that are instantly branded “terrorism” when the perpetrator is Muslim and the victims largely white. It was very hard — and still is — to escape the conclusion that the term “terrorism,” at least as it’s predominantly used in the post-9/11 West, is about the identity of those committing the violence and the identity of the targets. It manifestly has nothing to do with some neutral, objective assessment of the acts being labelled.
The point here is not, as some very confused commentators suggested, to seek an expansion of the term “terrorism” beyond its current application. As someone who has spent the last decade more or less exclusively devoted to documenting the abuses and manipulations that term enables, the last thing I want is an expansion of its application.
But what I also don’t want is for non-Muslims to rest in their privileged nest, satisfied that the term and its accompanying abuses is only for that marginalized group. And what I especially don’t want is to have this glaring, damaging mythology persist that the term “terrorism” is some sort of objectively discernible, consistently applied designation of a particularly hideous kind of violence. I’m eager to have the term recognized for what it is: a completely malleable, manipulated, vapid term of propaganda that has no consistent application whatsoever. Recognition of that reality is vital to draining the term of its potency.
The examples proving the utter malleability of the term “terrorism” are far too numerous to chronicle here. But over the past decade alone, it’s been used by Western political and media figures to condemn Muslims who used violence against an invading and occupying force in Afghanistan, against others who raised funds to help Iraqis fight against an invading and occupying military in their country, and for others who attack soldiers in an army that is fighting many wars. In other words, any violence by Muslims against the West is inherently “terrorism,” even if targeted only at soldiers at war and/or designed to resist invasion and occupation.
By stark contrast, no violence by the West against Muslims can possibly be “terrorism,” no matter how brutal, inhumane or indiscriminately civilian-killing. The U.S. can call its invasion of Baghdad “Shock and Awe” as a classic declaration of terrorism intent, or fly killer drones permanently over terrorized villages and cities, or engage in generation-lasting atrocities in Fallujah, or arm and fund Israeli and Saudi destruction of helpless civilian populations, and none of that, of course, can possibly be called “terrorism.” It just has the wrong perpetrators and the wrong victims.
Then there is all the game-playing the U.S. does with the term right out in the open. Nelson Mandela, now widely regarded as a moral hero, was officially a “terrorist” in U.S. eyes for decades (and the CIA thus helped its allied apartheid regime capture him). Iraq was on the terrorist list and then off it and then on it based on whatever designation best suited U.S. interests at the moment. The Iranian cult MEK was long decreed a “terror group” until they paid enough influential people in Washington to get off the list, coinciding with the U.S. desire to punish Tehran. The Reagan administration armed and funded classic terror groups in Latin America while demanding sanctions on the Soviets and Iranians for being state sponsors of terrorism. Whatever this is, it is not the work of a term that has a consistent, objective meaning.
Ample scholarship proves that the term “terrorism” is empty, definition-free and invariably manipulated. Harvard’s Lisa Stampnitzky has documented “the inability of researchers to establish a suitable definition of the concept of ‘terrorism’ itself.” The concept of “terrorism” is fundamentally plagued by ideological agendas and self-interested manipulation, as Professor Richard Jackson at the the National Centre for Peace and Conflict Studies in New Zealand has explained: “most of what is accepted as well-founded ‘knowledge’ in terrorism studies is, in fact, highly debatable and unstable” and is “biased towards Western state priorities.” Remi Brulin is a scholar who specializes in the discourse of “terrorism” and has long documented that, from the start, it was a highly manipulated term of propaganda more than it was a term of fixed meaning — largely intended to justify violence by the West and Israel while delegitimizing the violence of its enemies.
What is most amazing about all of this is that “terrorism” — a term that is so easily and frequently manipulated and devoid of fixed meaning — has now become central to our political culture and legal framework, a staple of how we are taught to think about the world. It is constantly invoked, as though it is some sort of term of scientific precision, to justify an endless array of radical policies and powers. Everything from the attack on Iraq to torture to endless drone killings to mass surveillance and beyond are justified in its name.
In fact, it is, as I have often argued, a term that justifies everything yet means nothing. Perhaps the only way people will start to see that, or at least be bothered by it, is if it becomes clear that not just marginalized minority groups but also their own group can be swept up by its elasticity and meaninglessness. There is ample resistance to that, which is why repulsive violence committed by white non-Muslims such as yesterday’s church massacre is so rarely described by the term. But that’s all the more reason to insist on something resembling fair and consistent application.
Photo: Charleston County Sheriff’s Office/Getty Images
“Terrorist” is more than a label. It is a legal status. Reserved for Muslims. Subject to indefinite detention on one end, and drone bombing on the other. White Americans are not on the list. Too big of a can of worms. For now.
A rose by another name, call them what you will terrorists, criminals, thugs, hooligans, insane or haters. You are right words can be focused by prejudice and do not count for much or make much difference anyway. Parental and societal neglect or abuse can be a factor. Add poor mental health and lost “control rods” or just bad chooses and motivations. There are plenty of haters and criminals around to fill them with their program and focus the hatred, hostility or greed. Once such dangerous individuals are created one cannot worry about how Old Yeller got Rabies if he is trying to bite you. The color of their paint, ideology does not matter and what you call them does not count. When prevention is not present of fails the force of law by police or citizens is demanded. Murderous dangerous people must be stopped by prevention or if necessary force.
And those ordering or blessing drone strikes killing women and children in countries with which we’ve not declared war…?
I call them terrorists, too.
America has abandon its own laws for making war, a declaration voted by congress and beyond the legitimate need for security does warrantless, double entendre, surveillance. Many in our congress are playing get rich quick not good governance. The process of drone strikes is more like a Star Chamber than warfare. When we lose our laws we lose the Nation. I dislike what is going on but love and serve the concepts of restoring a Constitutional Republic. I am no pacifist but demand the rule of law and good oversight, all but totally lacking since 9/11. War should be at the bottom not the top of the toolbox of State.
Any “rule of law” in this country, like that pretend notion of “justice for all,” has ALWAYS been lip service only – to hide its slave roots and oppression of minorities and the poor. But you’re quite correct very few leaders or candidates ever mention working for peace anymore, as that would somehow be surrender to (less disproportionate terrorists?) the enemy.
There has never been or will ever be baring the coming of God a perfect Nation. America can and has moved in the right and wrong direction over its history. America has never hidden its slave roots. Yes we were a slave Nation once and fought a very public Civil War to be a free Nation, we are still working on it, rather badly at present. WE all got history and sometimes get it right or wrong. I am part Cherokee and they often fully adapted runaway slaves into the tribe. I may be part black? There is also a very good black basketball player with the same names as mine, a legacy of slavery? It was Major Alexander Cowan that fired double canisters and stopped the last forward motion of Pickets Charge at Gettysburg, other distant relative may have been on the receiving end of this cannon fire. Presently much of the gains made by the America Revolution, Civil War and Civil Rights are endangered especially by sedition of our Constitution by the last two white and black presidents.
I don’t think it’s too hard to define terrorism. I don’t have the sources at hand but a fairly scientific definition I remember is (from the top of my head):
“An act of violence that is committed not as a means in itself, but as a means of communication to a wider audience than those directly affected by the act. This communicative act concerns a specific political agenda shared by the perpetrator(s). The wider audience of said act can include both, potential supporters and enemies of this agenda.”
And, yes, the Charleston shooting of course fits into this definition. But even without this I have a hard time understanding why anyone would *not* define it as an act of terrorism!
I don’t think I’ll quit using the “t word” whenever I personally believe it appropriate, Mr. Glenn, though you may’ve noticed like you I try to apply it consistently. Thank you for writing this.
I’m lost — I read the Sultana Khan article Glenn Greenwald labels as an example of the work of “some very confused commentators.”
Sorry but her article made sense to me.
I’ll share. This is the first time I’ve thought Greenwald was actually being as hidebound as people have often accused him of being (& I’ve never ever gone along with these criticisms)
after years of his very effectively pointing out that the word terrorism is used inconsistently, it really doesn’t look good for him to suddenly complain if the word IS applied more consistently. That doesn’t make other people the confused ones, in my view – it means the critique was a lot less coherent than I thought. Can one complain that a word has been used inconsistently but then also complain if it is used consistently?
Would love to hear from commenters on this issue.
Yes, you are. “Some very confused commentators” doesn’t refer to Sultana Khan, but to the commentators she’s quoting.
Also, it’s not that the word is being applied more consistently. It’s just that this tragedy is causing a lot of cognitive dissonance.
This is interesting in that regard, BTW:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/06/22/1395457/-White-racist-kills-state-senator-8-others-Not-terrorism-Black-man-threatens-whites-terrorism
Maybe I am confused about his meaning, but I’ll need more convincing that I read this wrong.
Greenwald’s full sentence: “The point here is not, as some very confused commentators suggested, to seek an expansion of the term “terrorism” beyond its current application”
Khan is doing that very thing, isn’t she? Seeking “an expansion of the term terrorism beyond its current application” of only describing the actions of non-whites?
Where is the march for “Je suis black”?
While Greenwald is correct, I think his point is less important than that the government not ever be permitted to work into the definition of any criminal act the political or other motivations of the perpetrator. I oppose so-called hate crimes too in that respect. We already have enough more neutrally phrased criminal laws that are quite sufficient to punish these kinds of crimes to the hilt if prosecutors would pursue them with the same vigor and commitment as “regular mass murder.” Murder 1 and Murder 2 already carry pretty high sentences, and sentencing is the more appropriate time in any event to consider motives (juries should also be involved in sentencing, incidentally, but that’s for another comment). This is the approach that will be most likely to do the most for preserving liberty, if that term means anything anymore. But if the term, Terrorism, or Terrorist, ends up being applied neutrally with respect to ethnic, racial, or religious groups, nothing stands in the way of the government applying the term, as it does already, to its political enemies regardless of race, religious, ethnicity, and so on. The ultimate problem with the word Terrorism and its various iterations, as Petra Bartosiewicz has shrewdly observed, is that it amounts to carte blanche on the part of the government to define as criminal its political enemies. A “terrorist”, Bartosiewicz says, is “an enemy of the state as defined by the state.” Precisely. Greenwald is in the vicinity of this point here, but I would like to see him write more attentively about it, as I recall him having done in the past, beyond the question of the term’s ethnically and racially biased misuse. There have been enough instances, especially after 9/11, of various government agencies within the national security state, e.g., the FBI, using “terrorism”, though perhaps not as virulently, against its white political opponents that the term’s linguistic vagueness poses a more general danger than it does merely to despised or marginalized ethnic groups (not that that is not important to point out).
I’m what most of you would probably consider a rabid right winger in the United States (which to me means I stand up for the Bill of Rights, and am willing to fight to keep all 10 of them going, and will not compromise on any of them). I labeled this terrorism from the moment I heard the motivations. The scumbag literally wanted to start a race war, he killed for a political goal and to create… terror. Can’t get more terrorist than that. The Obama administration doesn’t want to call it terror for some reason, but it seems most news organizations and random people on the internet are happy to apply the correct label.
>”I labeled this terrorism from the moment I heard the motivations. The scumbag literally wanted to start a race war, he killed for a political goal and to create… terror. Can’t get more terrorist than that.” *Ben
Oh, it can get way more terrorist than that. 9/11 e.g., to hear some rabid right wingers* tell it, was an act of *war*. Ect., ect.
*Bush, Obama … those types
I understand the point of the article by Mr. Greenwald. He is saying that the state (some say government) is using the term “terrorist” as propaganda by selective use of the term. I agree. Heck, any non-biased observer with an IQ higher than an ant or a congressman would have to agree with that observation.
But there is another angle. I have read that nearly every mass shooting incident in the last twenty years (not to mention multiple other instances of suicide, isolated shootings, and other acts of violence) all share one thing in common, and that is the fact that all of the perpetrators were either actively taking powerful psychotropic drugs, or had been at some point in the immediate past just before they committed the heinous crimes.
Some sites have run articles that give a list of those who were taking mind altering drugs and committed a horrific crime, but the mainstream media seems to actively suppress this line of investigation. I wonder why.
I take it you’re not a fan of Woodstock, Mark :)
*otherwise, good point!
I don’t find that particularly convincing of anything. About 20% of American adults take psychotropic drugs. The population of mass shooters has to be one with a high prevalence of mental health issues. I buy there’s correlation. I would even accept there’s causation, if I’m presented with scientific evidence of it. (For example, I know that some psychotropic drugs can increase the incidence of suicide.) The extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary evidence is the existence of a conspiracy.
Let me see now.
You claim that about 1 out of 5 Americans take psychotropic drugs. You acknowledge that almost all of the mass killers were taking the drugs. We know the drug warnings on the labels tell of possible sudden violence episodes. We know that the mainstream media does not report on the story.
And yet you think I need “extraordinary evidence” that the story should be investigated.
Well, OK then.
I understand your point Mark, but it doesn’t quite fit with the South Carolina shootings, which were carried out in cold blood after meticulous planning, and were accompanied by a long, mused over manifesto. This wasn’t a crime of impulse.
Where’s the encoded section of Law that defines an act of terror, does one even exist? You can’t prosecute a perpetrator without one, nuff-said!
No doubt this punk terrorized people; But i’ve waited years to for an actual cited numeric code of law revealing the definition of ‘terrorizim’. Maybe that’s why the gov never charged anybody at gitmo, or anywhere else? Kinda conveinent?
So there was another shooting in Detroit. One dead, 11 injured. This shooting appears to be ordinary criminal activity — a revenge killing of some kind. The attacker and the victim are both black it seems. Here’s what Detroit’s chief of police had to say regarding this shooting:
Ondelette, please explain to the police chief how he should be deriving his definition of terrorism from the ICRC’s customary laws of armed conflict.
I think I already explained what I think, Jose. The police chief is entitled to his opinion, I’m entitled to mine. It seems to me that an appeal to authority to prove the point of an article about how the authorities use the term in a meaningless way is more than ironic on your part. Satire?
As for from whom should the police chief learn about law, it is a common article to all 4 Geneva Conventions and the 1st Additional Protocol (47,48,127,144,83) that not only the police chief but everyone else is supposed to know at least the general principles of these conventions, and protection of the civilian population is a core principle. I shouldn’t have to inform him about what the ICRC has said about customary law, he’s supposed to be acquainted with it already.
I made my case for why I believe that’s the most cogent and consistent definition of terrorism, and for why this case doesn’t qualify yet, and for why I disagree vehemently with Glenn and probably you that it’s a meaningless concept, and for why I don’t think those who fail to immediately label this case terrorism are somehow guilty of racism. You are entitled to your beliefs, Glenn is entitled to his. Don’t forget that I am entitled to mine.
An act of violence the primary purpose of which is to cause terror among the civilian population. Like I said earlier, I think the primary purpose of this act was far more heinous. It just lacked the means and methods to do what the perpetrator wanted to do. Are you trying to keep me from thinking that? For what reason?
Hi ondelette. *I*, for one, am glad to see you here.
>”An act of violence the primary purpose of which is to cause terror among the civilian population.”
Well, it’s often difficult to ascertain someone’s ‘primary purpose’ … but I think you could fly several squadrons of Reaper drones through that definition and never have to call-up the stealthy billion dollar bombers ondelette.
By your definition Bad Bad Leroy Brown (the baddest man in the whole damn town) and his ‘junk yard dog’ would most likely be a terrorists. As you point out, they … >’just lacked the means and methods to do what they wanted to do’.
Therefore, I will agree that if malignant intent/motive coupled w/ the means and methods to carry it out (scope & scale) forms the basis for terrorism… that kind of narrows it down. It narrows it down to, essentially, only nation-states*, and, perhaps, some large multi-national corporations, could have both the motive and means to carry out terrorism.
*as groups like ISIS have no firmly established geographical boundaries (& very murky ‘command&control’), I consider them more a manifestation of the Nation-states involved in large-scale acts of violence in that once-upon a time garden of Eden.
Oh, and Everybody else (w/ evil intent/motive and who act upon it) are what used to be called *criminals* … like this poor pitiful Dylann Roof kid.
Thanks, bahhummingbug.
Here is a case where someone was convicted under the definition I gave:
http://www.icty.org/sid/8148
It’s known as the Galic case (because it’s Prosecutor v. Stanislav Galic). The means used were sniping and shelling, but really there was more sniping than shelling. So the definition does actually work on guys with guns.
Here’s the point. When people use the word “terrorism”, it’s not based on an objective assessment of definitions they’ve studied. It’s more of a gut reaction, an i-know-it-when-i-see-it kind of assessment. This practice, of course, is prone to biases and prejudice.
Further, when people discuss whether something “terrorism” or not, like we’re doing here, they might look for definitions that support their preconceived assessment. I realize you deny doing that. But I wonder how, with all the actual definitions available in dictionaries, US law and international law, you picked one that’s not really a definition, and one narrow enough that it might exclude the Charleston shooting.
Fair enough, you don’t know me very well. If you did, you’d know that I frequently push both awareness of and adherence to IHL. Know me even longer and you’ll see me getting into stuff having to do with the Refugee Convention and other such ‘shouldn’t be but kind of is’ arcane stuff. The fact of the matter is that I tend to pick those definitions a lot, I have to know them and use them at least weekly if not daily at times. I don’t call people “terrorists” a lot. Where I work, we don’t use that term at all, actually, though we do use the term “terrorism.” It’s in my own personal interest to know some things by heart, e.g. “without any adverse distinction founded on race, color, religion, or faith, sex, birth, or wealth, or any other similar criteria,” is my goto phrase for impartiality. And yes, I’m aware that it probably isn’t yours.
The problems that people here see with the application of that word to different violent people I actually see embodied in the two (yes there are two) versions of the term in U.S. domestic law (the other version people aren’t citing in this discussion much is someone who is a member of or materially supports a designated terrorist group). I consider those legal versions to have been written specifically to circumscribe the application of the definition I cited away from actions by nation states. So I’m very well aware of what they say, I just think they’re wrong.
Thank you for this piece sir! I am sick to death of the so-called ‘liberal media’ letting such murderous filth as Roof and McVeigh et.al. (too numerous to type) off the hook, when it comes to correctly calling someone who just happens to be white, “a terrorist”.
Did you all see this???
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/21/dylann-roof-manifesto-charlston-shootings-republicans
Earl Holt is, of course, foul and repugnant — and he gives a lot of $$ to Republican candidates. But at least he’s honest. He just says what many if not most Republicans believe. They’d keep taking his money if the media were not all over that Dylann Roof was inspired by Holt’s site and writings.
It wasn’t until this week that I started thinking of the designation of hate crime as a kind of special secondary category to downplay the import of these crimes.
Turns out part of our white privilege is to be a potential victim of terrorism – something we will turn over every rock and defy every standard to circumvent by the way but – the rest of y’all will have to be content with being victims of something we have designated “hate”. What, you aren’t satisfied? Ingrates….
Corey Robin, per usual, nails it.
http://www.salon.com/2015/06/21/the_racist_disease_we_never_discuss_dylann_roof_over_policing_and_the_real_story_about_safety_in_america/
…
or as the historian Greg Grandin puts it- “The cult of white supremacy that grew out of that history evolved into today’s cult of individual supremacy.”
White Supremacy evolves through negative liberty. Not in spite of it.
Let us in on the big plan, B AP, from your posts I’ve gathered that nothing anybody here is suggesting is good enough, so I’m sure you have something more substantive in mind for the next move. You simultaneously endorse Robin’s “we have to be safe in our bodies and secure in our rights,” while elsewhere suggesting – admittedly, I’m paraphrasing so feel free to correct me here – that we couldn’t possibly improve our government (to genuinely secure and protect) because they are all part of the problem; that all their moves have been scams and will continue to be scams.
Do tell us how to resolve this conundrum.
The “negative liberties” Benjamin disparages are the sine qua non of any acceptable society; they may not be sufficient, but they are critically necessary. Emma Goldman knew that.
It is acceptable to not be sufficient. That is the basic libertarian mind fuck. “May not be sufficient”. No. It simply isn’t liberty. I don’t disparage negative liberty. It doesn’t actually exist. In a State, all rights are positive. They’re enforced.
Now you’re making silly semantic arguments. The “negative rights” in the Bill of Rights are also enforced, if imperfectly.
The liberties detailed in the BoR do, in fact, exist. That’s what Emma Goldman sought to explain to Lenin and a host of other revolutionaries.
To the extent that rights exist, they are enforced. That is all. In a nation state, rights are positive, all the way down. “Negative liberty”, like a “Free Market”, is an oxymoron. The insistence to the contrary, is, again, the fundamental mind fuck of libertarian philosophy. You begin with a false premise, extend it with accurate logic, and simulate insanity.
No, you misread. Robin was explicating the liberal tradition, quoting Bernard Williams:
Security as the ground floor, in other words. Robin critiques that frame.
What is assumed to be the foundation for all liberty is, in reality, a volatile compartment. Member’s only. Not beyond politics, but, in fact, elementally political. Every person in every prison, and every dollar in every account, is a political reality. A political truth. Criminal justice is part of a larger whole. It’s not foundational, it’s relational.
As for the conundrum at hand, you didn’t seem very receptive to my suggestion earlier, but I’ll reiterate. Drop the term.
Not really talking about whether to use the word terrorism right now, although please note that using the word terrorism to apply to crimes against black people committed by white people actually extends the term out from all the ideological trappings you say it MUST have — rather than drop the term, let’s make it not mean some variant of white privilege as it currently does. Expanding the meaning of the term, and therefore removing its magic powers of coercion, could happen faster than trying to get everybody to drop it from their vocabulary — which, come on, you don’t have a plan for getting that done, and nobody else does either.
So your response is interesting and you still didn’t answer my question, which I will rephrase: if a government were to “address those deep inequalities and systemic injustices” could it therefore be trusted with providing security for all citizens rather than just some?
You come down hard on libertarians, so I’m curious whether you endorse some form of anarchism or what exactly? I’m not a big ‘trust the government’ person but I also don’t fancy the power vacuum that emerges when governments fall — it’s appalling how often things have gotten worse, historically speaking, to the point where the kind-of-awful previous order looks retrospectively less bloody. The history major in me speaking there.
U.S. complicity in gruesome torture and terrorism — in Guatemala in the 70s — as documented by Remi Brulin:
Rest: http://www.academia.edu/12999739/Bringing_the_States_Discourses_Back_In_The_United_States_and_Terrorism_in_Guatemala
Not terrorism.
Next!
loosewheezersyphillus whar u bin hunnee? ur unkel Loo Moron bin looken four u. Hea wahnts sum sexumal kongriss width u hunnee. Wee sint hymn to Mabel but shea haf stanturds don u no. Sew itt gud for Loo Moron taht u bakc!
Teh lourd seh Loo Moron kin luft upp ur skert loosewheezersyphillis. An wee awl say Ameen!
Will you kindly stop terrorizing the Queen’s English, you depraved Bible-bashing, corn-dog chomping, Greenwaldiana-guzzling gluttonous clown.
loosewheezeysyphollis hunnee, Ime knot deeprived uf teh Bibble loosewheezee hunnee! An I knot glutenumus ether. Mea an Deacum Faybeeoh juss folow skripshur don u no:
Guess that’s a “no” then, you incorrigible, ignoble, intransigent imp.
loosewheezy hunnee yew no illiterashum butt u knot rite width teh lourd.
U thimk yew haf hunnee loosewheezy butt u poring vumit awl ovar teh cummnets don u no.
O for a muse of fire! To bring us back to the subject of the day, which is the gross national weltschmerz.
You don’t say, Louise. Who could’ve predicted that? BTW, what did you think of Roof’s manifesto?
Glenn banned “her” once already. I imagine when he has time he’ll get this incarnation as well. Altho if she doesn’t post in excessive volume maybe he’ll let her stick around. We’ll see.
Louise your doublespeaks volumns. Your first post concerning Dylan’s mass murder with a political purpose “not terrorism”.
Then in your next blurb you claim poetry you do not care for “stop terrorizing the Queen’s English”. Please explain yourself.
A terrorist must be someone who does not purchase corporate-made explosive weapons, for obvious reasons …
Best comment yet courtesy rrheard:
Terrori$t is someone the US government/Fo$$il Fuels/B$CEOsBanks and Corporations want to control and profit from ad infinitum: EcoTerrorist is a good benevolent senior, community citizens all and even young people who just want a healthy productive community and world. Terrorism definition and gradient are $profits and not about the offense or crime. towards peoples and populations and even the new notion of affecting the planet’s wel-lbeing.
you $o $ubver$ive
Okay, now I’ve been through his “manifesto” and I still don’t see the terrorist label. If anything, the label that fits most appropriately to what he claims to be trying to do is “genocide”. That term has been fought hard by governments and groups to require the “systematic or widespread” attribute from crimes against humanity, but in its original form, it meant among other things committing acts, including murder, with “the intent to destroy, in whole or in part,” a race. That’s what he says he wants to do, and that’s I think the usual term for someone with that intent.
18 U.S.C. § 2331 defines “international terrorism” and “domestic terrorism” for purposes of Chapter 113B of the Code, entitled “Terrorism”:
[…]
“Domestic terrorism” means activities with the following three characteristics:
Involve acts dangerous to human life that violate federal or state law; Appear intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination. or kidnapping; and Occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S.
aka ‘Shock and awe’ …
Funny how domestic terrorism may occur “primarily”, but not exclusively, within US jurisdiction.
The Genocide Convention defines genocide as follows (Article II):
[G]enocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group, as such:
a) Killing members of the group;
b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
You read the “manifesto” Mona, tell me that isn’t a correct interpretation of what Mr. Roof said. He wanted blacks eliminated. He didn’t say a frigging word about intimidating, coercing, or influencing policy, and you know it.
This is Remi Brulen’s Twitter bio:
See his timeline to behold how aghast and astonished Brulen is — and why — that Comey and the FBI decline to apply the word “terror” to the actions and motives of Dylann Roof.
Sorry. I can not and do not use twitter.
Perhaps it’s worth observing that terrorism is first and foremost technique, or tactic. If so, then terror can be employed to further the goals of all sorts of movements, including racist, genocidal ones.
Yes, exactly. And that is why this event deserves the term terrorism more than some that get the label by default even though the perpetrators are seeking revenge or punishment.
Quite so. But the tactic is to sow fear. Dylann Roof doesn’t appear to have thought of that at all.
“Sowing fear” is an important part of the movement he belongs to, just as it is an important part Islamist extremism. Other motives are present in both as well, but if the CH attack is terrorism, this is even more so.
Tarek Ismail, a former counterterrorism and human rights fellow at Columbia Law School’s Human Rights Institute, interviewed by Vice. Ismail explains why Roof’s actions constitute terrorism:
Yup, as they say, if all you’ve got is a hammer, then every problem looks like a nail. There are other descriptions of someone than either terrorist or deranged. Unless of course you are a computer and can only think in terms of true and false. Absolutely nothing you’ve quoted from Mr. Ismail speaks to the use of the term “terrorism” at all.
You are simply proving Glenn Greenwald’s point. If a Muslim killed 8 Americans and published on online manifesto, no one would comb through it to see if he labeled himself as a terrorist. In one case, people will jump to a conclusion. In the other, they will go to great lengths to argue it was some other type of crime.
People were promised a Global War On Terror. They have certain expectations on what a terrorist should look like. They won’t let the government pawn off Dylann Roof as a terrorist – it’s not what they paid for.
Yes. And it is still terrorism per federal law even if it is also a hate crime or an act of genocide.
It’s a well-known scientific FACT that there’s a terror gene that is only found in Muslims.
And the most amazing part of this recent scientific discovery is that when a non-Muslim converts to Islam, that gene appears in them, and when a Muslim abandons Islam, the gene disappears from them.
It’s a remarkable natural phenomenon.
As a matter of fact, the presence of this gene is the only way to determine if someone is a Muslim.
Malala doesn’t have that gene, so she’s not a Muslim, no matter what she says about her religion. Nor are so many of the Sufi and the ordinary people who erroneously call themselves Muslims.
Don’t believe me, just ask these two authorities: Doctors Pam Geller and Steven Emerson.
If this site had an “upfist” ratings, I would totally give you one for that.
It’d be a lot clearer that you were replying to me if you let me know, and didn’t just lift a phrase without attribution or context.
Please don’t assume you know what I would or wouldn’t do if a Muslim did the same thing. I assumed the vehemence of some of the others about what I wrote was due to the fact that some of them don’t like me very much. In your case, you appear to be accusing me of prejudice against Muslims.
I was unaware that the subtext of this whole article and conversation was more fire and brimstone condemnation than it was discourse, but for the record? I think someone who accuses someone else of ethnic, racial, national, or religious prejudice on such specious grounds should take a look in a mirror.
I believe your own prejudices are irrelevant. I am talking about those of society.
You are simply a useful tool. If the FBI says this is not a terrorism case, you will start busily building rationalizations to support their claim. And maybe the FBI is right.
The anti-terror tools constructed in the past decade are formidable. To unleash those on uncovering a network of racists in South Carolina and beyond would upset many entrenched interests. They would fight back and perhaps the outcome would only further embitter and divide society. So it’s probably best just to declare this an isolated incident by a disturbed individual and move on. Sometimes the best way to deal with a problem is through denial.
So I really don’t have any issue with your rationalizations. But just don’t expect them to impress anybody.
They aren’t rationalizations, they’re beliefs. If you’re going to be so strident with your own, you should be able to recognize them in others.
I don’t build arguments for the FBI. That’s quite an assertion based on zero facts. You should learn the difference between beliefs you don’t agree with and rationalizations. Your own beliefs could be held to the same stupid yardstick someday.
Just curious, ondelette, have you invoked the ICRC rules as a definition of terrorism previously, and can you provide a link to where you did that?
Many times. No link though. I no longer have accounts at either Salon or The Guardian. The ICRC Rules database is not a set of “ICRC rules”. It’s a compilation of evidence on each of the rule categories as to what the state of customary IHL is on a particular key. The rule I was citing is actually in the 1st Additional Protocol, and in Geneva IV. The database just confirms that they are considered customary law. That’s confirmed by their application to non-international armed conflict by international tribunal in this case.
Why are you curious? Working hard on an argument that says I’m bringing it up with an unseen motive? I’m not.
Glenn. Why do you wallow endlessly in the irrelevant and misleading “terrorism” issue? The far more fundamental question is why Mr. Roof wanted to be the catalyst of a war. What war? Racial? I doubt that. I have a hunch that he had a class war couched in a race war (the blacks are the cause of all of our economic problems) in mind or perhaps he did not even realize that that is what he wanted. What I have learned from his own utterances and the manifesto he may have written he emerges to me as a non-slave-owning white male of Charleston in 1861 who volunteers to fight and die for males and females who owned slaves. Why? Yes, the same why then as now. In 1861 our nation was being transformed from overwhelmingly agricultural to a mixture of farming and industry. Today our nation is transforming from one in which the so-called middle class had some political and social clout to one where it becomes increasingly declassified. There is plenty of evidence that Mr. Roof is merely a very extremist representative of a very broad mass of unhappies believe that their status in society ought to be much higher than it really is. They are dangerous but not because they are terrorists. They are dangerous because they are easy prey for demagogues.
I’m going to take a stab: because our government is destroying the fabric of our society under the banner of fighting terrorism.
It should be known what we are actually fighting so we may determine if we are following a just course.
I wrote this before I read the article. Glad we agree:
“Finally! I understand how to apply the term “terrorism” correctly. I had thought it was only terrorism if it was done to white people by non white people. But no, the Tsarnaev brothers where Russian, and as pale as they come.
I got it now, though. Its only terrorism if it is done by someone who threatens the Dollar-Given Right of Rich White Men to rule the World. If we want to invade a country and steak their resources, and make them beholden to our banks and business moguls, all of their citizens become terrorists. If any citizen resists, they are a terrorist. Domestically, if the oppressed rise up, they are terrorists or “gang” members (which strikes equal fear in deluded whitetopia). If the oppressed get shot up, it is not terrorism, though. Its merely a wink-wink, nudge-nudge, crime.
The framing ensures that whitetopia will hate the enemies of the Rich, and have little regard when the enemies of the rich get killed.
We are at war… or rather they are at war with the world. They are manufacturing consent with the very word (or lack thereof) terrorist.”
Clear thinking about terrorism (in the US, at least) was screwed from the very start:
“In 1985, when I was the Deputy Director of the Reagan White House Task Force on Terrorism, they asked us — this is a Cabinet Task Force on Terrorism; I was the Deputy Director of the working group — they asked us to come up with a definition of terrorism that could be used throughout the government. We produced about six, and each and every case, they were rejected, because careful reading would indicate that our own country had been involved in some of those activities.
After the task force concluded its work, Congress got into it, and you can google into U.S. Code Title 18, Section 2331, and read the U.S. definition of terrorism. And one of them in here says — one of the terms, “international terrorism,” means “activities that,” I quote, “appear to be intended to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination or kidnapping.”
Yes, well, certainly, you can think of a number of countries that have been involved in such activities. Ours is one of them. Israel is another. And so, the terrorist, of course, is in the eye of the beholder. ”
–Ambassador/Reagan Staffer Edward Peck
http://www.democracynow.org/2006/7/28/national_exclusive_hezbollah_leader_hassan_nasrallah
An excellent article.
About Terror and its companion Horror.
The Emim were a race (not of human origin) that existed in Moab, beyond the Jordan.
See http://biblehub.com/topical/e/emim.htm
They were giants that ate humans.
They were a terror to all except Joshua and Caleb (see Numbers).
The terror of the giants (Rephaim) caused Israel to wander in a desert for 40 years till all fighting men who were terrorified had died, except Joshua and Caleb. Only then could the promised land be occupied.
War and terror in one.
But no Anakim, Emim, Avim, Zamzummim, Zuzim or Troglobytes exist today yet were are to be made fearful.
We are to be made fearful so that, as other commentators have argued, we will wonder in fear and wander in uncertainty, giving over to a lesser freedom of state design.
It is the status quo by the powers that be, that terrorfy me.
“yet were are to be made fearful.”
‘yet we are to be made fearful.’
We are to be made fearful by the government.
For consideration, here is an article arguing that Denmark Vesey, one of the founders of the Emanuel Church, was a terrorist. By the author’s definition, Roof would also be a terrorist. He also claims that Truman was a terrorist.
This illustrates the great flexibility of the word terrorism. By my definition (violence, or attempted violence, or possibly even just the expression of violence, which opposes the state), Vesey was a terrorist while the other two were not. But others can make valid arguments that any of these three, or none of them, were terrorists.
And Mr. Glenn also argues for that consistency, though the state’s political director of their law enforcement agency has attempted to nuance some difference for the many, many reasons Mona has cited here. She also bolded the actual U.S. Code stating coercion of the state is a secondary definition of terrorism AFTER coercion or intimidation of a civilian population. This then makes it quite clear any enforcement of the statute is highly dependent on the hypocritical bigotry of a political appointee agency leader who apparently actually favors such racial oppression, and not just upon a “flexible” definition of the word. Comey’s flexibility does not come from yoga, Duce, and hardly seems in the interest of the state…
Comey acts in the interest of the state, or he wouldn’t have a job. The official position of the State is that racism does not exist in the USA. Therefore it cannot be political (which implies an organized form of racism actually exists), but rather, the manifestation of the deranged psyche of a troubled individual.
Which, in this case, it is.
#irony
Comey might not appreciate you calling him deranged…
>”By my definition (violence, or attempted violence, or possibly even just the expression of violence, which opposes the state),”
Which state is that?
*As the ruler of a small country, all non-state definitions of terrorism are subject to criminal prosecution under (We use U.S. code for these purposes) “18 U.S.C. § 2331 defines “international terrorism” and “domestic terrorism” for purposes of Chapter 113B of the Code, entitled “Terrorism”. (h/t Mona … one of my loyal subjects, whether she knows it or not, ok.)
Nobody ever reads those statutes. They exist just so that people can say terrorism is defined in a statute. But the real test is that you know it when you see it.
Mona reads ’em (bless her heart!). Glenn’s a stickler too, ’cause the devil’s in the details*! … but I know what you mean.
*The point is, le benitoe, when a Dylann Roof, or Grand Wizard of coo clutch klan or even the Alien Evil 9/11 terrorists hijackers commit such heinous acts of terrorism, it’s rather important the *state* bring them to justice under the appropriate and applicable legal statutes w/out prejudice or bias
… instead of inappropriately invading, bombing and droning much of, say, everthing ‘east of ginger trees’!
Hell to pay … https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xeszZfu8C0
We need glen greenwald in canada! We have the worst media in the world, its terrible.
While I was growing up, there was another term that was used politically, rather than descriptively, for the same reason, to ‘other’ one group and crimes members of that group committed. The term (which has enjoyed a revival in useage, again politically rather than descriptively) is ‘honor killing’ and when I first heard it, was used for any domestic violence against women ONLY if the perpetrators were ‘Mediterranean’ ( Italian or Portuguese) in ethnicity. By the time I moved out of the family house, all such instances were labeled as ‘domestic disputes’ no matter the background of those involved, though those I came to know who worked with the victims of such ‘disputes’ noticed no change in the prevalency of any particular background. When the reward for using such terms that in useage are almost purely political becomes outweighed by the cost of discriminating against the targeted group, the special label fades from the scene. We (and that includes you the person reading this) need to call out both those who insist on using it, and those who insist on not using it, in a discriminatory fashion as racists.
The FBI, and the media, do not promote knowledge of the right-wing and racist terror plots the government investigate and prosecutes. Why is that? Why don’t we hear more about cases like this one: http://m.northwestgeorgianews.com/mobile/rome/news/local/fbi-men-planned-guerilla-war-against-federal-agencies/article_bbaa4e6a-99c1-11e3-86c1-0017a43b2370.html
The answer is, the government cannot rile up the public to great heights of fear and willingness to cede more power to the state, not over white, right-wing plots. No, only those scary, evil jihadists are useful as government propaganda, so only those will be called terrorists, or certainly only those will be loudly heralded as such.
Did you ever read about this bunch?
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/05/26/rogue-element
Indeed the opposite happens. Look at the Jade 15 conspiracy theories. For SOME ODD REASON, unlawful military invasion of a governing body is considered a “bad” thing now. Funny how the timing worked out on that, gun?
Great article, Glenn! I utilized some of what you said in a blog post of my own (with a link back here, because this deserves to be read): http://twoplustwoequals7.blogspot.com/2015/06/but-i-thought-terrorism-was-one-of.html
Applicable statute:
——————————————————————————————————————————————————-
18 U.S.C. § 2331 defines “international terrorism” and “domestic terrorism” for purposes of Chapter 113B of the Code, entitled “Terrorism”:
[…]
“Domestic terrorism” means activities with the following three characteristics:
Involve acts dangerous to human life that violate federal or state law;
Appear intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination. or kidnapping; and
Occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S.
——————————————————————————————————————————————
I say James Comey has his head up his FBI ass. And that is true even for those of you who are concerned about more invocation of the T word. Dylann Roof’s actions fall within 18 U.S.C. § 2331.
Yeah… but then they would have to torture Roof for intell, send in Seal Team 6, or, push come to shove, drone kill his ass. He looks ‘fightin’ age’? There’s a freaking war on, Sis, Uncle Sam Wants You!
*This kid could be the reincarnation of David Duke as far as I’m concerned. This issue is not whether this was an act of ‘terrorism’, but if it was an act of *war*? Big difference.
Yah. And given how entangled these categories are, the externalities of the charge are unavoidable.
The externalities portend well, which is why the federal government is running hard and fast from admitting that Dylann Roof’s actions fall squarely within 18 U.S.C. § 2331.
Idk, I tend to think the gov. is running fast and hard not to admit 9/11, e.g. (& most of the Mid East conflicts it is involved in) would fall squarely within 18 U.S.C. (squiggle sign) 2331. The externalities don’t portend too well there!
*In the meantime, lets all continue to hope President Obama has the good sense not to invade South Carolina or ‘shock and awe’ Charleston (an, otherwise, charming city by the sea.) including Lindsey Graham, because of this heinous act of terrorism.
Exactly. Either way, the GWOT comes out even. Poisoned politic.
bah, my friend, I have a hard time understanding you much of the time. I’m a linear thinker, and you just seem something different. So all I can really say to this last from you is: Ok.
bahummingbug, everybody: (squiggle sign) for a section of a law is alt+0167 (you may have to turn on your num lock key). More than one section is §§, as in “§§ 2331 et seq”.
Greenwald is brilliant as always. My two cents is that Washington doesn’t see Charlestown murders as “terrorist” because they don’t view white supremacists as a threat to the state. See this FBI “nostalgic” posting on the Weather Underground:
https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2004/january/weather_012904
No FBI qualms here about using the word “terrorist”. Of course out of the gate the story is that Roof is a loner. End of story. Nothing to see here but a troubled, incredibly shy boy.
Well, Terrorism is a plan by a group to achieve some purpose. Can you have a lone hand terrorist(no group or political aspects)? With what ultimate aim?
The wiki shows many definitions can be used. So many that they weaken the term, like crying wolf weakens the call for alarm.
If every foul act is name “Terrorist”, we will be seeing terrorists in every bush(not Bush…)
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Terrorism
Not only will the FBI refuse to call Roof a terrorist, the news won’t allow he’s even a thug or criminal. The whole media frenzy over this hateful, sad junky is very suspicious. One thing sure..many sweet Christian people in Charleston are holding hands and praying for his immortal soul. That’s a fact and they are of all races and ages. I expect nothing from the media or higher ups anymore…they are good for nothings. It surprises me readers take the word “terrorist” seriously, it’s so discredited.l
The SPLC has this update:
Spells ‘terrorist’ to me.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/06/20/1394948/-Racist-manifesto-and-selfie-collection-confirms-what-we-knew-Dylann-Roof-a-racist-terrorist
Both the Muslim and African-American activists in my Twitter feed are outraged that the FBI declines to characterize Dylann Roof’s murderous behavior as terrorism. Roof shot a black state senator, among others, and is reported to have intended to start a civil war — and told them they “have to go.” He intended to spare one person (he inadvertently failed to kill two others) so she could communicate his political views and motive.
Understandable. And yet, you can’t use the terror frame without simultaneously reinforcing a larger ‘state of emergency’. The lone wolf trope is particularly dangerous. Atomized individuals stand in for phony monoliths. Emergency powers in perpetuity. It’s utterly corrosive.
I sympathize with the politics, but it’s poison.
How about we use the term terrorist consistently first. Something very convenient about stopping now – oh no, white people might be terrorists? Better drop the term. Yeah no.
Universally. Absolutely. Terrorism is never going to be applied consistently because it’s a political cipher. There is no there, there. Attempting to legitimize its application only reinforces its capacity. You don’t confront a racist statutory regime by endorsing it categorically. You drop the regime. Drop it. Drop it from a great height.
Meh. How many white, Anglo-Saxons would feel terrorized even if that word is applied? No, the problem is extending the term to white young males who kill for reasons distinctly other than political Islam. For the FBI and federal government in general, to apply it to Klan-type political violence is to dilute the effect they want the word “terrorism” to have.
It dilutes the specialness of so called “Islamic terrorism”. It doesn’t dilute the charge of terror, its attendant siege mentality, and the emergency power that all confers. The “racist terrorist” is value added to the security state. It eats everything. Equal application of a categorical error is still categorically in error.
I completely disagree. The white population would not be inclined to give up its rights to protect blacks from white supremacist terrorism. And that’s been going on for a couple of centuries with great white resistance to the state having any power to deal with it.
No, the state needs terrorism to remain something those dark-skinned Ay-rabs with the crazy religion do to regular ‘merkins.
That’s why the feds don’t want what Roof did to be called terrorism
White liberals would and will, which is how this attack will be recuperated by the security state. Middle America will continue to compartmentalize Muslim violence from right wing violence. And the beat moves on. Security eats everything.
That’s not quite true. Read Murakawa’s The First Civil Right. The pretext for today’s carceral apparatus, what eventually evolved into Jim Crow 2.0, was white on black violence.
Quite like what Minksy said about liberals and poverty: “The liberal’s war on poverty was born out of neoclassical theory in which it is the poor – not the economy – that is to blame for poverty. The war on poverty tried to change the poor, not the economy”.
The sanctity of the state vs. its material results.
Yes, it is. What do you think all the hoo-haw about “States rights!” has meant in the South?
Bullshit. Federal anti-lynching laws and enforcement were long-overdue. The carceral state is almost entirely the result of the “war on drugs,” with an assist from the “law and order” mantra initiated by Nixon and a white, middle-class public freaked out by the violent anti-war and civil rights protests of the 60s.
No southern patriot is going to take kindly to any notion that government power must expand to deal with the terrorism of a Dylann Roof.
Right. Instead, cops did the lynching exclusively. Under legal parameters. Which paved the way for the drug war. These are not separate issues.
You’re talking past me. Southern racists aren’t in play. White Liberals are. White Liberals ‘take kindly’. That’s the point.
If you are seriously arguing that there was no quantitative and qualitative reduction in terrorizing blacks after the federal government intervened post-WWII, you are simply wrong.
So what? They can’t do to the populace with Dylann Roof what they have done with the scary Arab jihadist. White southerners — and no few northerners — are quite willing to embrace anything the govt wants in the face of those nasty Mooslims. But if they think anti-terror policy is meant to protect blacks from whites, that govt needs more power for that, watch the fear-mongering potential of shrieking “terrorism” fall precipitously.
The terror became progressively legal. That’s all. Prisons busting at the seams. Communities abandoned. Surplus humanity. Fascism and capitalism aren’t separate issues, no.
For liberals, they can, and do. History bares this out.
This is the beauty of the divide and the other. They beg you to compromise your beliefs for revenge.
This is how putting a conservative republican in jail for smoking pot is almost as good as legalizing pot.
Just think about that. Who is actually getting their just deserts here?
The divide calls you to edge and begs you to jump. Not to reach the other side, but so you will call suicide–revenge.
The definition of terrorism was right in front of us the whole time.
This is nonsense. Anti-lynching laws and other federal interventions actually did make things better. You are simply wrong. The incarceration explosion has nothing to do with the federal anti-lynching laws and other interventions. Everything you write is abject nonsense — ahistorical crap.
White people, especially southerners, are NOT going to embrace government empowerment to save black people from “terrorism” that does not affect them. Not. Going. To. Happen. It doesn’t matter how many liberals suggest it.
There is no significant downside to correctly identifying Dylann Roof’s actions as “terrorism.” Except for the government, and that is why they don’t want to do it.
I really recommend Murakawa’s work. It may offer you a perspective you hadn’t considered before.
@lastname
*nods*
Sontag on writing after Kafka. “Nobody has known where to go from there…”
If Comey doesn’t think it’s a political act, I would ask him to imagine himself a black now going to his or her place of worship or other public gathering and a white stranger (or group) appears. What normal person wouldn’t give pause at the very least? Further, what white of good faith making such an appearance might worry about the consequences and hesitate to do so? It may be overcome, particularly in time, but it was definitely an act to create fissure between races.
Terrorism has been politicized beyond the point of it having meaning any longer, but the one common thread is that it attempts to exploit elemental fears to change our behavior. If Comey doesn’t think this was a political act, he is as delusional as that monster’s manifesto.
Very well said!
It would be deemed terrorism, but given the application is highly and selectively political, there are just too many people in America who support the viewpoints that Rooff moved into violence, to contemplate charging a whole white and HBD blogosphere with the severe crime of Material Support of Terrorism.
the best succinct assessment of why the political/media elite refuse to call Roof a terrorist: what are they gonna do, throw over half the population, including themselves, into prison?
if the act of whatever creates terror it should be considered terrorism Not. Defined by who commits the act of terrorr
FBI Director James Comey decrees that thus far what happened in Charleston is not to be deemed terrorism:
One wonders if Director Comey is aware that Roof is alleged to have said, at the time of his massacre: “I have to do it. You rape our women and you’re taking over our country. And you have to go.” And of Roof’s apparent manifesto.
He probably knows. The difference is, the alleged shooter said it in English. Not Arabic. So, we can probably forget about a terrorism charge and all that, 18 USC 2331 goes back in the Mason jar for another day.
It’s like the fact that the only prosecution under the torture statute, 18 USC 2340A, was of Charles “Chucky” Taylor, Jr., a US citizen who was working for the Liberian government, not ours.
And the reason why an FBI director doesn’t want to call this terrorism is because they can’t just target tiny little segments of society anymore; very inconvenient. All the more reason to make sure this gets called terrorism.
While I have some issues with the Southern Poverty Law Center, its entry on Roof is interesting: http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2015/06/20/charleston-shooters-alleged-manifesto-reveals-hate-group-helped-to-radicalize-him-online/
Apparently, he was radicalized initially by the “Council of Conservative Citizens,” previously known as “White Citizens Councils.”
And what is the genesis of your radicalization, sweetie?
I was surrounded by people like you in my youth.
Did they take turns?
You are so utterly predictable. A female calls out your racism, so you dig into the sewer pit that is your mind and decide to spew degrading sexist stuff. Unlike some, I find such antics both amusing and reassuring. Yours are the weapons of a dying ideological breed.
A warning, tho. Altho I won’t complain, I’ve seen Glenn delete and ban for stuff that falls to the level of Stormfront. It’s up to him how close he lets you get.
Well, I’m going to complain, though I admire Mona’s equanimity.
GG, if you read this, please consider it my complaint about the “Lou Marin” character/caricature. Life is too short for childish misogyny unleavened by anything approaching wit.
This is over the top, but hardly surprising. It’s like crank magnetism. Anders Breivik, for example, is an avid anti-feminist.
You are so utterly predictable.
Most such ‘typhoons’ in tea pots are.
You’re a disgusting pig, Lou Cypher/Marin/whatever you want to call yourself. Why couldn’t it have been you in that church taking a shot to your worthless head?
Chris, you utter dumbo, Mr. Greenwald or one of his subordinates on this rag has blocked me from schooling you jihadi fellow travelers any longer, so “Lou Marin” is someone else.
Thanks for that link, Mona, wasn’t sure that the “manifesto” was real when it first surfaced.
You are welcome. I also was not certain. But I assume SPLC applied some resources to making a determination.
Thank you for the link, Mona. Guardian is also looking into the connections as well, and its currently front page —
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/20/fbi-investigates-website-manifesto-charleston-shooting-suspect-dylann-roof
There’s been a lot of talk about a stochastic effect, of websites and talk shows winding up these individuals; trouble is, when you have one of these nutcases go off spontaneously, it’s a little difficult to prove either criminal conspiracy or (tort) proximate causation. We saw that with Dr. Tiller, where O’Reilly had been campaigning against “Tiller the Baby Killer” for some time but when Dr. Tiller gets gunned down, no one but the shooter gets the penalty.
I dunno, coram. If someone assassinated Dick Cheney are all of us who called him a war criminal and murderer responsible? Even morally?
Depends on the identity of the accused, I imagine. If it was one of the more unstable commenters on here, yes, I’m sure the US Attorney would bend a few rules. If it was somebody of Middle Eastern extraction — and I don’t mean Israeli — maybe not. The point I made earlier, using the trial of the Trotskyite-Zinovievite Center as a somewhat arcane simile, is that the powers-that-be can conjure up any case from an incident, in their case, from the shooting of Sergei Kirov, and make it serve their purposes in court.
Or, since we’re coming up on the centennial of the Mooney-Billings case, there’s also the possibility that authorities can take any incident and pin it on the tail of any donkey they’ve been targeting — in that case, labor leaders in San Francisco. Here, however, as with the case of Dr. Tiller, the pawn gets the prosecution and the noisemakers walk. It all depends on what pre-obsessions the prosecutors have.
As they should, if by “noisemaker” you mean O’Reilly’s ranting about “Tiller the baby killer,” and not direct incitement to murder.
It would still make for an interesting discussion of proximate causation in Torts. But that’s all.
Other prosecutors, in the past, had been busier about connecting dots in terrorism cases, e.g., after the 1916 Preparedness Day incident.
And the intersection of tort law with 1st Amendment law as seen in, e.g., defamation doctrine.
FBI Cointelpro continues today.
Terrorism is a government finger pointing term to fulfill it’s own agenda.
I think the term “terrorism” has a “consistent application” and you’ve stated it: “terrorism” is defined and consistently applied to anyone (but primarily Muslims) who engage in violence against Western individuals, property and/or interests.
And the you’ve also set out precisely the purpose of applying that term in an inconsistent, malleable and discretionary manner devoid of anything approximating a coherent definition or application:
That is clearly and precisely what the application of the word “terrorism” is all about. Nothing more and nothing less. I’m actually shocked that the academics who “study” the use of the term don’t come out and plainly say: “after exhaustive study of every instance of the use or application of the term “terrorism” we have determined that the term is an incoherent definition-free term of nation-state propaganda applied only to an individual or group that engages in acts of violence against Western individuals, property and/or interests. The singular purpose of the use of this particular term of propaganda is to justify or legitimize any and all violence by the West and Israel while attempting to delegitimize any and all violence perpetrated against Western or Israeliinterests.”
It is unfortunate that every time there is a “terrorist attack” on some Western interests the Western mainstream global media apparatus doesn’t trot out a half a dozen academics to repeat the above talking point ad nauseam. They don’t because they are in the bag, so to speak, as an “institution” (the “press”), and because they are an integral part of the Western nation/state propaganda apparatus–by definition.
The correct term to be applied to unjustifiable or geopolitically motivated violence is “murder”, “mass murder” and/or “war crimes” committed by criminals or war criminals. The only problem then becomes that the West and Israel will never permit any and all violence they commit against whatever individuals or groups to be accurately termed “murder,” “mass murder” or a “war crimes”. They will never permit this for very simple fact that until the US is no longer the nominal “victor” in contests of geopolitical violence, it gets to define the terms of the global dialogue or “debate.” Until one or more nations get together and kick the ever living shit out of America’s armed forces and America sues for peace on its knees, and thereby becomes the “defeated” rather than “victor”, then and only then will the terms “murder”, “mass murder” or “war crimes” ever be applied to Western or Israeli acts of geopolitical violence. Well at least not applied in such a way as to have any actual legal or political consequences.
That’s the way the world works. In fact, I’d argue that’s the way the world has always worked since the beginning or acceptance of the idea of nation-states. Nation-state violence is never referred to as “murder”, “mass murder” or “war crimes” except and to the extent it is applied to a “defeated” peoples. Generally, with the rare exception that occasionally a nation-state will scapegoat one of its own low level perpetrators of geopolitical violence (i.e. generally a soldier of low enough rank), for the very simple propaganda purpose of convincing their domestic population (and that of their “allies”) that “we are a nation committed to the ‘rule of law’ and/or international legal conventions or treaties.” Of course they are not and never are “committed” to those conventions or treaties if that “commitment” would limit the pursuit of a nation’s perceived interests in some way and that nation’s elites believe nobody can stop them mililtarily from violating or holding anyone accountable for violations of those conventions or treaties. That’s just the way the world has worked so far. I can envision a better and different future for mankind, but not until all human beings see themselves as global citizens and/or human beings entitled to fundamental human rights, and not as the cannon fodder or disposable worker widgets of the nation state of their birth or residence.
Via twitter:
Link to manifesto:
http://lastrhodesian.com/data/documents/rtf88.txt
It’s ugly stuff.
I find the language debate endlessly fascinating. On the one hand, I think some on the left treat it as an Orwellian magic wand, literally a creator of reality. I think if you take this stance it can lead to trying to shellac language that feels intuitively wrong on to various situations – there is a truth value there that people sense is missing. On the other hand, you can find a term that captures some aspect of the current ethos perfectly, but the actual referent is not clear (I think this is what Glenn implies is happening with the word terrorism).
Regardless of how the press chooses to interpret the term “terrorism”, not the only term they mangle it might be noted, there are basically 3 definitions of terrorism in this country, and their overlap and discrepancies muddy things, but that’s far from saying the term is meaningless. Two of the definitions come from domestic law, and one defines terrorism as a political act perpetrated on the civilian population, and throws in features that are likely to make some kinds of acts qualify in advance of knowing the motive — that it causes a mass casualty incident (injury or death to > 25 people) or that it uses a “WMD” (also a butchered term, usually meaning a CBRNE device). The second, which causes the very most confusion is that it is also defined as any act on behalf of a group which has been designated as a terrorist group. The third definition of terrorism comes from customary and statutory international humanitarian law, and it’s a hostile act the primary purpose of which is to cause terror among the civilian population.
Under none of those definitions does Stack’s act qualify, that’s possibly why it isn’t labeled that way. As you’ve mentioned, some acts seem to qualify and are later revised given evidence of a different motive — the shooting in Canada wasn’t the only such one, there was also the Gabby Giffords shooting, and that was a white guy.
I prefer to use the definition under international law. If it turns out that Mr. Roof intended to cause terror among the general population, then perhaps it qualifies, since he also claimed to have wanted to start a war. If not, then not. Omar al Bashir’s barrel bombs, in addition to probably qualifying as genocide, are a good example of this definition from the present. That it need not require a massive weapon is borne out in the Galic case, which is about sniping, principally.
I’d say we wait and see. It’s obvious that it would be a hate crime in a state which had hate crimes. Terrorism isn’t necessarily a slam dunk until we know more. And the notion that the concept is meaningless is bullshit, pure and simple. It’s nice propaganda, but it’s bullshit.
If emulating the actions of America’s most notorious terrorist group – the Ku Klux Klan – is somehow “debatable” as to whether it’s terrorism, then it’s pretty clear there is an obsessive need for some people to never call white racist terrorism by the word ‘terrorism’.
The “until we know more” line usually means, “I need more time to sway people to support what I believe”.
There are no mysteries in this case; we know who did it AND we know why he did it. It was a white racist asshole who murdered innocent people solely for being black. Period.
Do we also need to “know more” about why the 16th Street Baptist Church in Birmingham was bombed in 1963?
The NAACP yesterday called for it to be considered a “hate crime”. Do you seriously think they don’t have an appreciation of the “most notorious terrorist group — the Ku Klux Klan”? Do you know how the Klan operated? There was quite a bit more to one of their actions than a murder, in case you don’t. I told you precisely which version of the word terrorism I usually choose, and it requires a motive to assert, so I am not making excuses waiting until I see that motive. If it qualifies it qualifies, if not then not. Sorry. Believe it or not, the standard I am in favor of is not determined by a completely uneducated press at the time of the event. It’s usually the subject of an international tribunal. And it is the one to which people are making reference, whether explicit or not, when they imply governments are guilty of it, even Greenwald. It’s considered customary IHL. It doesn’t have to answer to you and your insinuations about my motives.
https://www.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v1_cha_chapter1_rule2?OpenDocument&highlight=terrorism
Motive may matter, but before it does, it needs to be understood that the rules on customary IHL apply to armed conflict. Neither Roof nor Zehaf-Bibeau fit the customary rules. With respect to the latter, Ottawa made it fit, at least long enough to get the GWOT legislation it wanted. Washington won’t because doing so (i) serves no useful purpose given that the GWOT, at least for government marketing purposes, is by definition a war in which Muslims are the enemy; and (ii) might trigger public and judicial scrutiny of the GWOT-inspired extrajudicial mechanisms when applied to the non-Muslim white guy.
Oh, I’m well aware of when IHL applies. The definition in IHL has the advantage of being internally consistent, and I think it’s therefore superior to those definitions that aren’t.
*Whoosh*
You basically prove Glenn’s point. You’re trying hard to find ways to justify why Roof’s attack doesn’t qualify as terrorism. People in the media are confused by cognitive dissonance. This thread has nearly 200 comments already. If Roof had been a lone wolf Muslim jihadist, would there be any debates about whether the act should be called terrorism?
It’s not so much about the dictionary definition or the legal definitions, though they are all problematic. It’s about how the term is used in practice and for what purpose. The argument, on ethical grounds, is simple: Either use it consistently, or don’t use it at all.
I’m not “trying hard” to do anything. I’m stating some facts, namely that there are actual definitions for terrorism in play, at least one of them signed on to or acceded to by almost all the countries in the world, and that what we know about the Mother Emanuel shooting so far doesn’t fill in all the necessary slots. It may in fact do that once the investigation is complete, but a rush by the press, including the press here, to create and answer a binary choice right now if not sooner is just that.
If you didn’t understand that I am quite clear as to what I define terrorism as, and that I am quite clear that if this fits that definition at some point then it is terrorism and if it doesn’t then it’s not, then “WHOOSH” to you. The Stack case as I said, doesn’t fit it. There was no primary purpose to instill terror in the civilian population. End of story.
Let’s use your preferred definition then. I assume it’s the UN GA assembly definition that’s under negotiation since 2002?
In Roof’s case, the motive is reportedly to start a civil war. How? By trying to get black people to retaliate, of course. His method was to terrorize the black population. Whether this exactly fits the semantics of the word “intimidate” is only worth debating if you have an interest in continuing to exercise denial. Stack’s case is even more clear. He wanted to change the behavior of government, and thought violence was “the only answer.”
One interesting thing about that definition is that western governments — for obvious reasons — have requested that some exceptions be added to it: namely that nation-state armed forces be excluded from it. There’s also the issue of whether resistance to occupation should be called terrorism. That’s basically what the negotiations consist of.
I gave Luther a link to my definition, so don’t presume, click. No. I was not using the resolution passed by UNGA. Here’s the link again:
https://www.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v1_cha_chapter1_rule2?OpenDocument&highlight=terrorism
It’s from the ICRC Customary IHL Database “Rules” section, Rule 2. It’s very very widely accepted even if many states and groups work mightily to find ways not to fall under its scope. It applies to war (all IHL does), but it’s pretty concise, in that it labels violence done with the primary purpose being to cause terror among the civilian population terrorism and a crime. And it’s extremely non-denominational, a point that Glenn seemed to be wanting most of all: Indiscriminate bombing that is being used to terrorize civilians done by the military of a nation state also qualifies. But acts which lack the desire to terrorize the general population don’t measure up.
It isn’t clear that it applies to Roof in the philosophical sense (technically it doesn’t apply because of the lack of a war) yet, it might at some point, but it doesn’t yet.
lol
Those are rules of armed conflict, ondelette, not a definition of terrorism. But if we were to apply that criteria alone, then “shock and awe” is terrorism. A lot of what Israel does, such as demolishing apartment buildings and homes, fits as well.
As a definition (which it’s not) it sucks. The Oklahoma City bombing would not qualify. In a lot of cases it’s not clear the intent would fit. Take the Charlie Hebdo attack, or the Nidal Hasan attack. How do you begin to demonstrate the intent was to terrorize the general population, and not just retaliatory?
I think the UN General Assembly’s is a much better attempt at an actual definition under international conventions. But it’s deadlocked because countries have disagreements over the definition due to political considerations. QED.
Yes, they are laws of war, yes it is also the laws of war definition of terrorism. Article 51 defines all sorts of things by way of prohibiting them. Yes indeed, Galic was convicted of terrorism for violating those “rules of armed conflict”. I never said they weren’t that, and I said there were two other domestic law definitions but I prefer that one. I like it because it succinctly defines terrorism as acts which are supposed to cause terror. No matter who performs them. It’s very clean. It has no implicit Westernness ethnicity or anything else in it.
As a definition, it can be and has been taken to court.
No idea whether it disqualifies Oklahoma City or Nidal Hasan. There are other crimes than terrorism in those “rules”. ISIS described the attack at Charlie Hebdo as vengeance, you are correct. Reprisals against the civilian population are also banned acts, btw.
How do you establish any crime with a state of mind involved? Genocide also requires proving “intent to destroy in whole or in part” and yet the prosecutor at the ICC has filed several such charges against people, and Navi Pillay’s court convicted Akeyasu of it for rape as a weapon of war.
The deadlocks, be they at the General Assembly or in the International Conference of the Red Cross and Red Crescent are always the same: Any clean definition, like the one I favor for instance, has the by product of tending to indict nation states — or more properly heads of state — for some of their behaviors. I personally have no problem with indicting such people. I was very disappointed when the Court in South Africa failed to be able to hold on to al Bashir, for instance.
Does that also mean that some of the behavior of so-called Muslim terrorists isn’t really terrorism? Of course. Does it mean sometimes something is an act of terror and the press fails miserably to call it that? Absolutely. While you may think your definition from the UNGA is better for whatever reason, you should also keep in mind that the definition I prefer has the force of both customary and statutory law, has been implemented in successful prosecutions and in various parts bears the signatures and ratifications of between 180 and 195 countries in the world. If it fails to call some heinous person a terrorist, so what?
Meant to answer this. I think “shock and awe” is worthy of exploration, except that there was probably a whole phalanx of JAG advisers saying so and they probably carefully rewrote what they were doing to tiptoe around each one. Ditto the Israeli demolishing, although I know for a fact that the IDF “JAGs” get ignored and told they are there for advisory purposes on at least some occasions.
In other words, the people involved probably have tons of documentation intending to protect themselves about that, but I would argue if the purpose of “shock and awe” was to shock and awe the civilian population, then it was a war crime.
Jose, the key to understanding Ondelette is that he hates Glenn Greenwald with the heat of a thousand suns — ever since Glenn (righteously) called him out as an “embittered liar” back when Glenn was at Salon. Ondelette is intelligent and well-informed, but manages to get himself made unwelcome wherever he goes, including Firedoglake and Glenn’s space. Smart as he is he’s a pissy person, at least online.
The rasion d’etre for his commentary this time is all contained in the last two sentences of his lead post in this sub-thread: It’s all about Glenn.
Mona,
I think the interpretation that the definition of terrorism is meaningless is bullshit. I think your ad hominem is pretty unnecessary to Jose unless he can’t understand what I wrote. And what I wrote is that there are multiple statutory definitions of terrorism at play, and that the one I adhere to is the one under international law, and that the first case Glenn mentioned doesn’t fit it, and that I’m not sure I know enough about Mr. Roof to say his act does.
The raison d’etre” for my commentary this time is contained in the link I provided Jose. Maybe you should follow it and read it before you tell Jose what and how he should think about me.
My bad. I provided the link to Luther, not to Jose.
Well Ondellete, as far as I am concerned you are on a kind of probation. Not that I think you care; I am simply making a general announcement that I will retreat and wait and see if you merit having your inglorious past follow you, or not.
This was my very first comment on a Greenwald article here. I’ve commented on other articles here for months. I run into people on a daily basis who think things in international law are meaningless, I’ve had quite a bit of time to reach the conclusion they’re wrong.
I wouldn’t be a bit surprised if Glenn wasn’t up on that definition, I have still never seen him cite Geneva law on anything at all. But large parts of it are customary, and they’re followed even by armed groups. So he’s in a distinct minority if he doesn’t subscribe to it.
Ondelette is obsessed with Glenn, as Mona says. However, his basic thesis here — that the word “terrorism” can & does have a legitimate legal definition — is correct. As correct as it is beside the point.
Ondelette is willfully ignoring the point of Glenn’s piece: in the United States today, the term has been deprived of legitimate meaning due to its intensive, almost exclusive, use as propaganda.
Glenn is perfectly capable of admitting that the word could have meaning. In a sane, just political environment, it probably would still have meaning. It has been stripped of meaning by the ethical abuse of language that is propaganda. Irrespective of the very valid, nearly noble codification of the term by the ICRC, it no longer has proper meaning in the U.S.
That is a crime of sorts, in and of itself.
Really Fluffy? Obsessed with Glenn? Even though this is the first Greenwald column I’ve commented on since he started The Intercept?
It is not a demonstration of anything to not call something “terrorism” if you don’t believe it’s been shown to be terrorism yet. I stated what I think is terrorism, I did also acknowledge there are other definitions. Under the definition I believe in, the jury is still out, so for me not to call this terrorism doesn’t connote any meaninglessness on anything at all. But then, there are a whole lot of things I don’t call terrorism, just like there are a whole lot of things I don’t call occupation, which others do. I’m not the one polluting the word space.
The definition given by the ICRC is also in the textbook I have on IHL, which is used at military academies. Meaningless in the U.S.? Prove it.
Things are malleable and context dependent. The government of Chad banned the burka a couple of days ago. Your thoughts?
Omelette’s even more of an intellectually dishonest asshole than Craig and Nate; I’m surprised he’s just now coming to The Intercept to sling his bullshit.
I believe the accusation of “intellectually dishonest asshole” needs at least some supporting facts or arguments. Otherwise, how doe we evaluate your supposed intellectual honesty? Just lining up to chant the received wisdom is unofficially known as the “four legs good, three legs better!” argument.
I’ll 2nd with 2 words:
“Humanitarian Intervention”
This article is not about the label applied to this recent atrocity. It is about politically motivated inconsistency.
Thank you for officially issuing the correct interpretation of the article for me, I respectfully reserve the right to create my comments on my own, though.
Im not sure how your third definition, “a hostile act the primary purpose of which is to cause terror among the civilian population,” doesn’t apply. He killed them because they were black, “had to go,” and let one person live to tell other people what happened. His intent was clearly to create fear among the black civilian population.
Glenn, another good example of the meaninglessness of the word “terrorism” is the fact that Cuba was just removed from the “terrorist list”, for no other reason than the US wanting to have more economic relations with them. What better example is there to demonstrate that the “terrorism” designation is just used as a political weapon!
Lou Marin will find congenial reading in what is reported to be Dylann Roof’s manifesto: http://lastrhodesian.com/data/documents/rtf88.txt
Southern trailer trash version of mein kempf. Interesting.
Moana ~ Why such an angry cunt? I seem to have gotten under your skin, little lady…
Now, now Lou, I’ve run into your kind before. You think I’m going to have the vapors over the C word, and fall into a faint over sexism. Not at all Lou: It just gives you an additional chance to shine and advertise yourself for all to see.
Karma, Lou. And we know you know what karma is: https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/06/17/baltimore-police-idle-black-lives-perish/#comment-141171
Lou Marin, you are a stupid, sniveling coward. Why don’t you take your hands off the keyboard and do something in keeping with your inferior intellect, like masturbating to snuff porn.
This boy is broken. He seeks the attention that loser in Scandinavia made for himself shooting down an island of children. There is little hope for him.
After Jared of the Tucson Six was medicated, he came to see the horror of his murderous actions and now lives in unbearable sanity. Is that terrorism?
I think words lose us our bearings. I think we’re nutz. We need to heal ourselves, but too many iceholes insist we remain ill.
How many hours of air time do our media devote to ISIL as if their own existence depended upon it? Talk about guessing what the government wants and expressing it. Can’t deal with domestic terrorism induced by extreme everything right now, we got nations to re-invade!
well argued, Glenn, as usual. but what’s new? for the longest time, we’ve known that one’s freedom fighters are the other’s terrorist. what’s important is where the LINE is between one and the other, and which side you’re on, for each cause taken up by the “terrorist/freedom-fighter”. there is no neutral position to take.
not all murders are equal. some are meant to TERRORIZE a whole group of people for various political causes, while others are not.
Glenn, also, I never see or hear the term Christofascist referred to when the terrorists are white like I see and hear the term Islamofascist for non whites.
much like our government won’t call the fort good shooting or the Boston bombings terrorism.
As this argument was unfolding on Twitter, I was one of those arguing against using the term “Terrorism” to describe Charleston. While the attack does meet many criteria defining the term, the term (and our collective thinking about ‘terror’) has become so confused, muddy, self-serving and corrupt that it should simply be abandoned.
Instead, if we are actually interested in seeing and thinking about things as they truly are, Roof’s attack should be seen as an act of genocide.
Before dismissing this, here is how Raphael Lemkin– who coined the term “Genocide” in the 1940s and was instrumental in early formulations of international law against it– defined it:
“Generally speaking, genocide does not necessarily mean the immediate destruction of a nation, except when accomplished by mass killings of all members of a nation. It is intended rather to signify a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves. The objectives of such a plan would be the disintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups.”
Roof’s choice of target, and the timing of his attack, fit squarely within Lemkin’s observations about how genocide seeks to ‘disintegrate’ “political and social institutions, of culture…religion…and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups.”
If we really want to clearly perceive what Charleston–and an increasingly visible wave of violence against African Americans in the US actually is–I’d suggest Lemkin’s definition of genocide is clearer, more accurate, and has greater utility than the broken “T-word”.
There is no word more broken than genocide.
I think its a kind of unspoken and controversial truth that the antebellum south, confederacy, jim crow south, etc were engaged in a slow genocide of people of african descent living in their borders. Its really the logical conclusion of disenfranchisement, segregation, eugenics, medical experimentation, and finally lynchings. This shooting is just one more paragraph in the latest chapter of that story.
We ought to examine how the U.S. defines a “terrorist” in their own law (before it is changed), namely, IMMIGRATION AND NATIONALITY ACT (INA): ACT 212:
(iii) TERRORIST ACTIVITY DEFINED.- As used in this Act, the term “terrorist activity” means any activity which is unlawful under the laws of the place where it is committed (or which, if 4/ it had been committed in the United States, would be unlawful under the laws of the United States or any State) and which involves any of the following:
(I) The highjacking or sabotage of any conveyance (including an aircraft, vessel, or vehicle).
(II) The seizing or detaining, and threatening to kill, injure, or continue to detain, another individual in order to compel a third person (including a governmental organization) to do or abstain from doing any act as an explicit or implicit condition for the release of the individual seized or detained.
(III) A violent attack upon an internationally protected person (as defined in section 1116(b)(4) of title 18, United States Code) or upon the liberty of such a person.
(IV) An assassination.
(V) The use of any-
(aa) biological agent, chemical agent, or nuclear weapon or device, or
(bb) explosive, 4/ firearm, or other weapon or dangerous device (other than for mere personal monetary gain), with intent to endanger, directly or indirectly, the safety of one or more individuals or to cause substantial damage to property.
(VI) A threat, attempt, or conspiracy to do any of the foregoing .
To say what should be obvious but clearly isn’t to many, Dylann Roof falls into III, IV, Vb, and arguably II.
The Charleston shooting was not an act of terrorism.
It is understandable that people would read a statutory definition of terrorism and, somewhat perplexedly, conclude it covers the events which took place in Charleston. But this fails to recognize the statute probably has not been updated in some time. Words change their meanings. To describe something as ‘sick’ is now an expression of admiration. Such changes may greatly dismay the taxonomists who like everything to be neatly classified and immalleable. But everyone else recognizes that living languages mutate and evolve, and that opposing this is not only futile, but counterproductive.
I don’t deny that the historical evolution of a word may be interesting and even informative. The word ‘terrorism’ dates from the French Revolution and the ‘Reign of Terror’ as the new state tried to bolster its authority by instilling fear in the general populace. It was thus a tactic of the rulers to stabilize the country. Throughout history, of course, rulers had always done this. But it was taken for granted and unexceptional. Since it was just a fact of life, not a topic of debate or discussion, no special term to describe it was required.
The French Revolution was exceptional, since the development of a new technology – the guillotine – allowed the killing to proceed on a much larger scale than previously. This was something new and required a new word to describe it.
Governments soon realized the term was potent and started applying it to their enemies. Thus anyone who overtly resisted the will of the government became designated as a terrorist. Under this new definition, the tactic no longer made sense. Implanting fear in the general populace is a means of enforcing their compliance and subjugation to the will of the ruler. Those opposing the ruler have no tactical advantage in creating a climate of fear – since that is simply a justification for the government to harshly suppress them and creates popular sentiment in support of the government. But this logical discrepancy was greatly outweighed by the propaganda advantage derived by the government from using the term to describe their opponents. So the use and frequency of the word continued to grow.
Some people were still aware that the definition of terrorism generally describes a government tactic. In all societies, the government (if it is legitimate) reserves uniquely to itself the use of violence to accomplish its political objectives. So there have been suggestions that any definition of terrorism explicitly include the words ‘violence for political purposes by a non-state actor‘. However, this tends to advertise the hypocrisy inherent in the term, which diminishes its propaganda value, which is the whole point of using the word. So most statutes don’t specifically include this, although some academics, with their traditional blindness to the wider implications of their subject of study, do so.
All of that preamble was a setup to the simple question of whether the actions of the Charleston shooter threaten the government’s agenda in any way. The answer is no and therefore as stated in the original sentence, he is not a terrorist.
Right. If it had been terrorism the gov. would have sent a Reaper drone to kill Roof.
Hey that’s pretty good. I always knew Mussolini wasn’t the dumbo his opponents overseas made him out to be. A little strutting and arm-folding chest puffing is definitely in order for this insight, justifiably. These days, it’s feces instead of fasces. But don’t get strung up about it.
Whether the perpetrator is Muslim has nothing to do with the reason they don’t want to call this “terrorism”. There’s another criteria much more important than that for why they don’t call this “terrorism”:
The attack was successful and on U.S. soil.
That is the only reason they won’t call this “terrorism”.
Politicians are fond of saying “There hasn’t been another successful terrorist attack on U.S. soil since 9/11″ in order to justify that the “War on Terror” is working – to justify that the non-transparency, and the surveillance state, and the police state, and the military industrial complex are all good and are working well.
I think it is possible to define terrorism …. You draw one line depending on whether the target of an activity is within the Geneva Conventions on warfare, and another depending on whether the perpetrator is a legitimate combatant. When a legitimate combatant attacks a legitimate target, that is war. When a legitimate combatant attacks an illegitimate target, that is a war crime (sometimes colloquially known as government-sponsored terrorism). When an illegitimate combatant attacks a legitimate target, that is partisan, saboteur, or spy. And when an illegitimate combatant attacks an illegitimate target, that is either crime or terrorism.
That last distinction is the hardest, of course. International terrorism is when what might otherwise be called crime crosses international borders and the host government of the terrorists can’t or won’t handle it as crime in their own territory, so they and/or the attacked country resort to military measures. Domestic terrorism seems to have a similarly vague definition – the government can’t or won’t handle something as ordinary crime at home, but resorts to some variant of martial law to deal with it.
In any case, I don’t think that we can expect terrorism to be defined in terms of whether you use a gun or a bomb or a knife, or whether you’re foreign, or Muslim, etc., because in the end it’s the government that decides when to throw up its hands and send in someone besides ordinary police to deal with it, outside the ordinary frame of such rights as it normally try to uphold.
So you say the legitimate use of the term terrorism is as much a matter of judgement as the definitions of illegitimate combatant and target.
Well, more so. The blur on the nature of a legitimate target is the blur between terrorists and “freedom fighters”. The blur on the nature of a legitimate authority is reflected in the distinction of terrorism and war crime. But in addition, it is the purely arbitrary decision of a government about when it will declare something an insurrection or terrorist organization and declare martial law or send in the spy agencies without regard to ordinary rights that distinguishes it from crime. And definitions like the one in the Patriot Act – by virtue of being written on the spot for the specific law they govern, without necessarily being consistent with the list of terrorist organizations, etc. – they only go to show how arbitrary and ad hoc that decision is.
Terrorism as banned by the 1st AP Article 51, does not center on whether or not a “legitimate combatant” aimed at a “legitimate target”. It centers on whether the purpose of the attack was to terrorize the population. If that was the primary purpose of it, then no amount of “legitimacy” makes it legal.
If a [legitimate/illegitimate] combatant attacks a [legitimate/illegitimate] target you will have to pay a lot of lawyers a lot of money to sort it all out.
Like the Vietnam war, or the Iraq war?
What?
For you to understand you must be capable of reasoning. Something you obviously lack.
The ‘Sydney Siege’ at the Lindt Café in September 2014 was carried out by a Muslim. While it was initially believed to be a terrorist attack, it became clear very quickly that the man was psychologically unstable, had ‘family issues’, and was not motivated by the normally accepted ‘terrorist’ motives.
Of course, the politicians didn’t take long to start throwing the word ‘terrorist’ around; and Wikipedia still appears somewhat conflicted regarding whether this was a ‘terrorist’ attack or something else (‘suicide by police’, ‘a call for help’ etc.). Were the man an Anglo-Saxon Christian there is no way people would still be discussing whether it was a terrorist attack.
One interesting part of the Wikipedia article discusses the attempt to find an ISIL flag, as demanded by the man (presumably as a distraction). Police asked a member of the Sydney Muslim community to find a flag – while apparently sourcing their own – and the following day raided three homes of people who had been contacted as part of that attempt to assist the authorities. It appears that the demand by the hostage-taker was seen by police as an opportunity to find out who might have ISIL sympathies – one wonders how much help they expect from that community in future.
Linguistics. The language neocons/neolibs use in order to (or at least try to) bullshit the masses into hypnosis. Divide and conquer. Whites must always be described as somehow more superior. We as whites somehow can’t be able to commit the same thing as ‘these other people’, and if it happens, there must be an understandable explanation. Obviously there was something wrong at home. Fuck the fact that it is most likely the same with ‘these other people’ as well. No, through the clever use of linguistics ‘these other people’ have been demonized to a point where no empathy or sympathy or understanding exist. They are evil and we are good. If we fuck up, there is an easy explanation, if they fuck up, it’s because they hate us for our freedom.
The neocon/neolibs can try as hard as they want to be non-transparent through secret governance, but the lie will only be believed for so long.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbwQ0Wy3ljQ
“Not One Of Us”
It’s only water
In a stranger’s tear
Looks are deceptive
But distinctions are clear
A foreign body
And a foreign mind
Never welcome
In the land of the blind
You may look like we do
Talk like we do
But you know how it is
You’re not one of us
Not one of us
No you’re not one of us
Not one of us
Not one of us
No you’re not one of us
There’s safety in numbers
When you learn to divide
How can we be in
If there is no outside
All shades of opinion
Feed an open mind
But your values are twisted
Let us help you unwind
You may look like we do
Talk like we do
-But you know how it is
You’re not one of us
Not one of us
No you’re not one of us
.
Black shooter= thug
Muslim shooter= terrorist
White shooter= mental illness
jew-shooter or jewish-shooter against any non-jews= legal and legitimately justified (DIGUSTING|
the usa governance does not call things by its name.
Cop shooting unarmed civilian=American Hero
I have a jew-shooter. It is like a pea-shooter, except the ammunition consists of jews rather than peas. Of course jews come in all shapes and sizes, so it’s not a very effective weapon. But it’s terrifying to behold.
Of course jews come in all shapes and sizes, so it’s not a very effective weapon. But it’s terrifying to behold.
:-)
Dang nation … all I have is two peas in a pod! :)
I like snow pea pods. In my food. I’ve never considered shooting them, but….
“The Jew-Shooter” sounds like an item fit to be demonstrated and sold along with the Bass-O-Matic.
A Dan Akroyd is Now Old production.™
My patent is pending, so don’t go getting ideas.
Yes, but I’ve patented the Hasidim Clip. We had issues with the little black hats clogging up the works, but that’s been resolved.
Admittedly a better idea than my “secular agnostic jews clip.” At least the Hasidim know where they’re supposed to go.
You two crack me up.
This piece complements Glenn’s article.
White Supremacy Continues to Provide Protection for Imperialism
http://blackagendareport.com/white_supremacy_protects_imperialism
and see also:
American militarism and the Charleston killings
wsws.org/en/articles/2015/06/20/pers-j20.html
The mass killing in Charleston, South Carolina
wsws.org/en/articles/2015/06/19/pers-j19.html
This is what true effective terrorism is: ‘In principle, threats are not to be eliminated but are to be maintained and contained, because they do an immense service in the shaping of a shared and effective political and historical consciousness. So it is that Netanyahu the Younger skips and hops between potential catastrophe, on the one hand, which he cultivates, and preventing its realization, on the other, all the while keeping Jewish existence suspended in a state of emergency. His political philosophy is, then, fully based on what can be called a doctrine of restrained catastrophism.
‘Thus, in Netanyahu the Younger’s playbook, only a perpetual Palestinian threat, only “management of the conflict” and the maintenance of a perpetual state of war, can preserve the Jewish state over time.’
http://www.haaretz.com/news/features/.premium-1.657593
Why is The Intercept incapable of offering an equivalent level of analysis to the one exhibited in this truly revelatory (and synthesising) Ha’aretz article?
The Intercept is unfortunately not adversarial any more. I honestly don’t know why. It could be editors, moronic headline writers, heart trouble or something else.
But it’s now about as adversarial as a lame South Park episode.
you’re too funny. But leave the comedy to Il Duce.
Israel pays for comments like these you know. Comments that try to discredit artciles that suggest it commits crimes. Don’t miss the oportunity.
When someone buys a house which is in poor shape, the question is whether to spend money renovating it, or tear it down and build a new one. The right answer depends on the circumstances.
Let’s say I have just purchased the US Republic. Being realistic, I would acknowledge it is somewhat dilapidated. The key question is whether the foundations are rotten. If so, investing in upgrading the exterior may be an attractive quick fix, but it’s only useful if I’m trying to turn the property around and sell it for a higher price to the next buyer (probably China). However, if I take a longer term view, I would probably rip out everything and rebuild it from scratch. This does create some inconvenience, as I can’t live in it while the renovations are underway. So I’d probably temporarily commandeer Canada and everyone could move there while the work was being completed.
Glenn Greenwald has moved to Brazil, so it would seem on the surface he is open to the rebuilding idea. But some of the other writers at The Intercept live in the US, so their commitment to real change could be questioned. However, I don’t necessarily condemn them. If you don’t have the capital to rebuild the house, sometimes you have to settle for a new coat of paint. But at least they all seem to be in agreement that something needs to be done, unlike my neighbours who are letting their house fall apart.
Cindy may appear a little lite in the poot … but she is a demolition expert!
*drives a Cat 9 dozier w/ the top down!
Exactly. The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion refers to the Imperial order’s state sponsored terror as Univerrsal War.They control the Gold Banking and Media as we as the war machine that feeds their power and wealth.
The “Protocols” text is obscene and anti-Semitic.
The ugly truth perhaps no more obscene than the reality of American Imperialism and the New World Order’s global terrorism. The war on drugs is in reality the business of selling drugs. The specious war on terror is the waging of terror. ISIS is the CIA and MOSSAD. The protocols is the blurprint for the NWO. It is the basis for the Bilderberg group, The TPP, The Rockefeller-Rothschild plan and UN Agenda 21.
The antisemites are the Zionists,they keep killing them and stealing their lands.
J tremaine is spot on,detailing words that have been made reality,although some resist because of ethnic and historical hatred exhibited to the authors and people of said tome,in rejection of our reality.
Magnificent essay, Mr. Greenwald. Erudite, well-supported, concisely and cogently argued points. It’s a pleasure to read you.
Yea, lets call this terrorism, soon all school shootings will be terrorist acts, then acts of bullying, armed robberies, gang activity, then all violent crimes.
Why is this an absolute HORRIBLE idea?
We gave the US government over reaching rights after 9/11 when we found a new global threat, stateless armies. This was a concern because one can interpret any act of violence to be an act of terror. This is far different than the stateless attacks that have been plaguing this planet for the last 30+ years. Hell the stateless attacks of 9/11 are far different than the acts of the Irish in their war of independents, while bother were seen as acts of terrorism.
If the US and other nations want to prevent the threat of stateless armies they can’t have this kind of bullshit. This meaning, everyone pissed off at a violent attack demanding it be listed as terrorism. If we continue down this path we will be shipping US citizens off to desecrate prisons under a loosely worded doctrine.
PLEASE tell me you see the slippery slope we are on. We need to be better, do better. Continuing down this path will not end well.
Before I get off my soapbox, I would like to say, this is not an act of terrorism, it isn’t a hate crime, and if this happened 50 years ago in a time we thought was hunky dorrie, we would have never seen these images and read something about it in a news paper. Perhaps if we fixed the underlining problem, which isn’t drugs or mental illness, bullying, outcasts, but something we have yet discovered, it won’t stop. If we keep trying to call this shit terrorism and hate crimes, we will end up just like every other failed stated before us.
America, Britain and Israel are the definitive sponsors of all terror. It is a business model.
The tyranny of capitalism is no where more blatantly cruel and unusual than in the protracted war profiteering manifested in corporate marketing of terror and militarism.
Why people resist reality in defending criminals is a terrible modern phenomena.They’ll agree that those nations are the perps,but they won’t fathom the underlying purpose of it all,greater Israel on the backs of dead Arabs,Persians and American and European dupes.
I can’t understand why we all aren’t standing out on a street corner right now with signs and the country is not rife with wildcats strikes.
Its’ pretty obvious to EVRYONE the wars oversea and the war here at home have the same perpetrator’s…why do we not do these things…we have the communications and we have the understanding that this is not just a lone guman. this is trained racial programming to get us to kill each other…feed ourselves to the dogs of their wars?
It is called giving the people “bread and circuses”, have you not heard of that concept?
Killing people is wrong, it is just that simple. The reason does not matter as there is no good reason to kill innocent people. Humans know this inherently from infancy. Knowing this, those who feel compelled to harm others create excuses, lots of excuses; race, religion, nationality, political affiliation, whatever. By reducing the value of the target with labels and excuses they attempt to reduce their level of guilt, and by increasing the villainy of their target they increase the heroism of their act.
As a society we need to keep this simple and speak clearly about right and wrong. Harming others is wrong, the excuses, labels and dehumanization of the targets are bullshit and we will not tolerate them.
Acts cannot be called terrorism. The acts are criminal or not and tactics or methods are terrorismic or not. That clarifies confusion a little bit. Using this definition we may say that police used terrorist tactics to enforce the law in Ferguson, or banks used terrorist tactics in 2008 threatening to destroy american financial system while ISIS used terrorist tactics to execute people to achieve political means in Iraq. Hence, one act is criminal and the others is not. Guess which is which? Hint: consider different verdicts of the case in County superior court in Ferguson or NY or in Sharia Court in Raqqua, Syria for those same acts. Propaganda lover legal world of relativity where everything can be bend and deform.
The usage, particularly by those in power, is employed to justify extraordinary punishment, for example the death penalty, and to circumvent due process. In the case of hate crimes, the motivation was to federalize certain acts that racist states (such as, but by no means limited to, South Carolina) would ordinarily not pursue, e.g. the lynching of blacks. Unfortunately, this has led to excesses; witness the war on terror [sic].
The rational remedy to the dilemma posed by the categorization of murder in this way would be to have a uniform, national system of prosecution, one that would ensure that anyone, in any state, who took the life of anyone else, would be afforded the same treatment as anyone else accused of the same crime. That’s the way it is in advanced countries. But here in the US we have states’ rights, which have demonstrably served to perpetuate unequal treatment, in particular, racism.
This little diatribe is not to suggest that I approve of the behavior of the Justice Department in its non-prosecution of banksters and other monied criminals.
Below, “Kiyo” wrote this:
This is exactly right. For how long have we been hearing from Zionists, both in Israel and the U.S., that the Palestinians need to take the path of non-violence and reject “terrorism.” Well, ok, they try to work through the UN, and Israel and the U.S. veto every pro-Palestinains move attempted there.
And now, after 10 years, BDS is picking up great steam; it is making Israel a pariah state all over the West. This non-violent protest and resistance method was successfully used to end apartheid in South Africa. The Zionists are deeply relieved that this is where the energy is now, right? That the strategy is non-violent?
No. BDS, you see, is terrorism, too.
Israel erects many barriers to Gaza’s soccer team going to matches so Palestinians sought to have FIFA — international soccer’s governing body — suspend Israel from the association. Whereupon, Likud Knesset member, Anat Berko, had this to say about both that effort and BDS:
Berko isn’t the only Zionist who has decreed that BDS is a form of terrorism.
“Terrorism” truly is the most malleable, propagandist term ever devised.
Roger that. And to elaborate on your reference to Israel, the very people who have led Israel (among them ben Gurion and Begin) proudly performed acts of terrorism against both the British and the non-Jewish inhabitants of Palestine in the lead up to the UN’s proclamation in 1948, only to be heralded ever since as freedom fighters.
US special forces and weaponized drones now operate worldwide, in countries that we are supposedly at peace with, killing without resort to due process of any kind, a practice so extensively destructive of innocent lives that even the USAF drone pilots are now suffering PTSD and other mental disorders. Are we not also a terrorist state?
Yes. Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir were both on British wanted posters for terrorism against both British and Arab civilian people. Israel would elect both Prime Minister.
Terrorists. As Prime Minister. In Israel.
I’m definitely going to see this film: “The Encyclical”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76BtP1GInlc
Only meaningful threats to existing and dominant power structures deserve to be called “terrorism”. That’s how it is. Everything else is just noise.
When I heard about this shocking and distressing slaughter, I had exactly the same response that I had about the perpetrators of the Boston bombing; the individual who brutally plans and carries out the murder of others is insane. All murders terrorize those who witness, even remotely, the murders. We are constantly the victims of terror from rash and senseless acts like this to the drone killings of civilians everywhere.
O/T “Reason” a US web site, has given IP addresses of some commenters to Obama, while simultaneosly being under a gag order preventing them from publicizing this:
-”The subpoena demanded the records of six people who left hyperbolic comments at the website about the federal judge who oversaw the controversial conviction of Silk Road founder Ross Ulbricht. Shortly after the subpoena was issued, the government issued a gag order prohibiting Reason not only from discussing the matter but even acknowledging the existence of the subpoena or the gag order itself. “
https://reason.com/blog/2015/06/19/government-stifles-speech
I’d just like to point out to the “Intercept” that there are alternatives to leaving yourself open to being Obama’s bitch.
1) you can choose not to log IP addresses (although, this deprives the webmaster of useful info for such things as spam suppression) or
2) Use something like a “bloom filter”, a non-reversible algorithm that stores anonymized data in place of the ip address (ask the tech geeks, they will know).
Glad you brought that up –
I’d posted another article about that issue in another thread.
I like that you have suggestions – I’d never heard of a “bloom filter” – but it does sound like a viable alternative..
I REALLY hope TI will address the issues raised by the Reason case by article or some announcement…
‘Canary.’ This was/is The Intercept’s primary addressing of the issue. Also, The Intercept is very seriously encrypted. Brilliantly, in fact.
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/05/27/first-look-media-publishes-warrant-canary-releases-autocanary/
Hi Cindy –
Oh yes, I remember quite well the article about the ‘canary’ thing. And it’s good to know that TI is very well encrypted. Then it still might be good for an article about the issue of commenting on news sites in general as most online news outlets have such features and with this Reason thing, we should all be aware of the issues involved and what’s going on – and maybe start pushing for other outlets to be more transparent (at least as much as possible) about the handling of posters’ info.
not directly related to the article but a depiction of the impact such hateful killing has on blacks:
Every day I live in fear that I will be in a place wherein someone who hates the very thought of my existence takes it upon himself or herself to remove me from this plane of existence. I went to bed Wednesday night and dreamt about Charleston, and woke up Thursday morning before the sun thinking about what life we are living right now. I got on the train, and a white man I had never seen before (you know morning commutes in the city; you see the same faces on the same trains in the same cars Monday through Friday) got on at Franklin Avenue, and — this is what fear will do to you — he had a bald head and tattoos on his face, and up and down the length of his uncovered arm to his knuckles. I watched the faces of the black travelers watch his face. I watched his face. The train was “delayed because of train traffic” between stations and the light flickered on and off. I swear the air conditioner in the train was off. Did I smile at him when he walked in? I look over at him between flashes, and, even now my heart is racing, his hands were reaching toward his pocket. Did he look me in the eyes when he walked in and moved next to me? I move to the other side of the train when it shifts back into motion and allow the inertia to act as my motivator, to mask my fear. His hand is still in his pocket. The black faces are still looking at me, are looking at him. He is on the other side of the train from me. The train stopped between stations because of traffic, and I had sweated into my gray T-shirt. This was my ride into work, into a world in which no white person in the office had any indication that there had been yet another assault on black men and women. Into a space in which I said I was not okay right now, because there is nowhere I can live. Nowhere I can go to be free.
DéLana R.A. Dameron is the author of How God Ends Us, a collection of poems selected by Elizabeth Alexander for the 2008 South Carolina Poetry Book Prize.
Thanks for that, Nate.
Is it possible that individuals such as Roof, and in some inexplicable way the psycho-cultural forces that created them, are attempting to send a message to or even seeking to compel to act the highest leadership of the nation? And by the same token, could these paradigmatically irrational acts not also be highly significant, portentous, and complex political communications which experts, including the media, have been incapable of deciphering–a sort of alien (in the sense of inhuman) ‘hieroglyphics’ whose very inherency is human pain, bloodshed, and death–and that it is this very reason–the glaring persistence of total incomprehension–that causes such incidents–such messages–to occur with such astounding, unheard of, almost unreal frequency?
The ‘potency’ of the term ‘terrorism’ is because it’s designation is increasingly tied to justifications for the use of force in a time of *war* (e.g. g.w.o.t.). I believe as this is true in the west … so it is around the world.
During the global war on terror, the designated terrorist (i.e. ‘enemy/combatant’) can be killed by military force, including assassination/sniper/drone tactics, as the opportunity presents itself. No court of law, or any other administrative process, is required to kill the enemy-combatant-terrorist on a moments notice … which is objectively very fucking potent.
Therefore, to ‘drain the potency’ of the term ‘terrorist’, the global war on *terror must end. President Obama has already declared victory, so hopefully it’s only a matter of paper work.
*I’m willing to concede a legitimate state of war can/may still exist between geographically defined nation-states… unfortunately.
There’s a beautiful poem by Nizar Qabbani, somewhat ironically titled, “I am with terrorism”, that talks about the first side of the equation: that if you’re living under occupation by a powerful nation, anything you do in defense will be labeled terrorism, whether it has anything to do with violence or not. And, of course, in this country, if you share any characteristic with the perceived “other”, you can come under suspicion too.
And now the other side of the equation is coming to the fore: that it doesn’t matter how violent you are, how politically motivated your act of violence is… If the majority of those in the political and “talking” fields view you as “not other” by virtue of some incidental, external trait— you won’t be called a terrorist. The word won’t even occur to them.
Slightly tangential, but is there some reason why his mugshot is sepia-toned? It makes him look sort of like Marinus van der Lubbe.
Picture on left;looks like Mickey Rooney as Whitey in “Boystown”.
His act was terror indeed.
Glenn sorry to go slightly off topic, but what’s your position on gun control? Just seems to be hugely important right now.
Sorry to disappoint you – I’m not Glenn! But I’ll answer that question. It’s quite simple: It doesn’t matter because no matter what you do Congress is a happy hostage to the NRA. Nothing will change at least at the federal level. So here is my proposal and stance on gun control: People like myself who believe in regulating guns (and I’m a farmer in rural America!) are powerless to effect change. I would prefer to simply focus on eliminating all security checkpoints to the US Capitol, and make access to the public galleries in the House and Senate genuinely public. No more lines, no more security. Let’s see how long Congress is comfortable deprived of the security that those in Charleston – or Sandy Hook or Columbine, or (fill in massacre of the week here) deserved through reasonable gun legislation, but did not get.
It’s worth noting that the problem is not guns per se, but the culture that supports, believes and extols that violence and killing can be both transformative and redemptive. The government itself, being of the same culture, arms itself to the hilt both domestically and overseas and isn’t shy about making it the first choice to resolving conflict. It’s causes are usually different from hyped up individualists acting on their own, but rather than change the underlying thinking, which says that at some point violence is necessary, it seeks to have such individuals in its own employ to exercise violence for its own aims. Without the culture changing, all that happens is for the government’s own dominance using violence to be further entrenched, with the power differential based on violence ever more slanted towards authoritarians. What is necessary for more than superficial legal fixes that unwittingly play into the hands of less freedom for populations, is a cultural sea change, where we are all taught it is taboo to kill, so much so that the easy violence of foreign policy and preemptive war against rivals and rebels overseas is repugnant.
I’m afraid I must disagree.
There are some pretty good guesses that the permeation of guns in the US is a problem, but sorry, I can’t give you stats because in 1996 the CDC had its funding for researching gun deaths and injuries as a public safety matter stripped and, although restored two years ago, the 1996 legislation has put such a climate of chill on this research that the CDC is still afraid to touch it for fear of being defunded again. And at this late date, now that so many essential freedoms have been curbed and many of those curbs were supported, nay cheered by the same elements that support permissive gun access, I find the notion that an armed populace can somehow protect its freedoms risible at best.
“Even more slanted”: Your somewhat qualified and careful language seems to imply that there is currently a balance between government violence and an armed citizenry. Of course this notion is not even close to the mark. Even the best armed of the Bundy Ranch crew couldn’t hold their own if our government brought a mere flicker of its force to bear. It would be like Godzilla vs. Bambi.
But your point about the general culture of support for violence is well-taken, and I absolutely agree that the hyper-militarization, racism, and authoritarian streak that permeates every element of our society at this juncture creates an atmosphere of fear that renders events like this more likely, and further (and more importantly) provides a background noise that makes violence visited on other countries by our own both more likely and more palatable to the general and supine populace.
But we have gone the route of doing nothing about gun access for decades now: and how’s that working for us? Maybe you could ask my aunt and uncle, who spent decades caring for a son rendered paraplegic by a bullet he took in the spine when he was the innocent victim of gun violence many years ago (just one of the tens of thousands of examples of the human toll of gun violence in the US). Gun control opponents have had their way; time to try genuine, reasonable (okay, a loaded, problematic term I know) gun control legislation that works and to break the back of the armaments industry (in every sense) that opposes it. Time to try it my way.
Say, are you the same “Peter” who had plenty to say in the comments to this piece? https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/06/03/media-trash-character-police-shooting-victim-reporting-anonymous-smears/
The Peter who mysteriously claimed to have seen all kinds of things in a video not yet available to the public?
Are you that Peter?
You didn’t mention Cuba. On Washington’s list of terror states for decades. Quietly with little fanfare, Obama de-listed Cuba a couple of weeks ago. It is all so arbitrary. The term serves little purpose other than to show the world that the U.S. will do whatever it needs to maintain and increase its power.
. . TERRORISM?.? The Air is safe to breathe? WE must get Wall Street up and running?.? George Bush said WE bombed IRAQ back into the dark ages…
Do you think that didn’t TERRORIZE the inhabitants – would scare the hell out of me. DRONES- – How many wedding parties did we blow to hell??
WE have 16 intelligence agencies?.? and CHINA?? just hacked all of our federal records? DO YOU BELIEVE THAT?.?.? but not one word of anything
the (so-called) intelligence agencies have done besides collect fat pay-checks… DID YOU LOOK UNDER YOUR BED – FOR TERRORISTS??? excuse me
What do they look like?? tall, short, fat, skinny, FAIR HAIR?? bald?? if you do not know what they look like HOW DO YOU FIND THEM?
. . . The government is selling every citizen out RIGHT NOW… see something – say something…. RIGHT out of the K.B.G. text-book
– your neighbor did what – report him…. spying on our citizens
. . . TERRORISM ?.? TORTURE?.? Hey, we’re the good guys ( so Washington says)( and George Bush said we don’t torture)…Be Afraid – – Be Very Afraid….
> > there were just Congressional Hearings into the C.I.A. torture program > > In Washington – there are just two political parties – Republicans and Democrats.l
Can You Explain What Happened To The Report?? The C.I.A. was smuggling drugs during the Reagan/Bush administration – there were Congressional Hearings back then also – – more missing reports??? you are being sold out – look at the money being spent to fight ISIS (should I add it is out creation)???
According to the Italian philosopher Agamben genuine civil wars begin in the family and eventually spill and take over the wider society. From this theory one might extrapolate backwards to the family that brought forth the civil war insurgent, the tyrant (a la Stalin), or the more quotidian social ‘monster’ that is the mass/stranger killer (Roof) and conclude that an essential paradox is at work: the subconscious taboo against lethal filial violence is still too strong to allow such violence to emerge against the familial order/leadership itself, while other intra-familial factors/dynamics are too weak to prevent it from being redirected and vented by the (self)-tormented subject externally against those least like the taboo-protected family: i.e. other classes, sects, races etc…Ultimately, and especially in the case of classical civil wars and revolutions, those most disposed/pre-selected for arbitrary or easiest lethality may eventually close the circle by returning to the original family and taking direct vengeance on it (e.g. Stalin). The application of this theory seems particularly apt in the case of Western jihadists, who seem pre-selected for extremely facile commissions of violence precisely because in an insurgent (take-no-prisoners) war such individuals no longer have to repress the accumulated pathological violence they harbored against core family and can express it in the neo-ideologically non-taboo contexts of ‘holy’ insurgencies and civil wars; this might also explain the desire to create new families incorporating persons from places remote from their original families–such new families being most likely to remain disconnected and hence protected from the aforesaid.
Glenn, you need to update your article.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/19/charleston-shooting-domestic-terrorism_n_7623704.html?utm_hp_ref=tw
18 USC § 2331 – Patriot Act definition:
(5) the term “domestic terrorism” means activities that—
(A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State;
(B) appear to be intended—
(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and
(C) occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States.
Condition A and C are obviously met.
Condition (B)(i) is where the argument lies. If a suspect hates an entire sector of the population and kills because of that hate, it is obviously a federal hate-crime (not a hate crime in accordance with SC state law…). So now the question is: did he “appear to intend” to want to intimidate the population? Um yeah, he was wearing pins of white supremacist groups so I’d say Condition B “appeared” to be met.
It appears he was a Lone wolf that committed a hate crime/terrorist act.
I think what makes this so confusing for people trying to identify whether it is a terrorist act is that for some of the Muslim “terrorists,” there is an association with Al Qaeda, or ISIS or some other group whose presence is current and ingrained in our psyche. In the Charleston instance, most Americans, myself included, may not really know a lot about apartheid-era South Africa and Rhodesia so they don’t see this individual associated with a contemporary terrorist organization.
That misses the point completely. Whether the Charleston shooting is terrorism is something that is being debated, with a lot of people saying it isn’t, and mainstream media largely — though not completely — avoiding the term. That’s the point. Whether the US government formally indicts the guy on terrorism charges doesn’t change the argument about the term terrorism.
– “That misses the point completely. Whether the Charleston shooting is terrorism is something that is being debated, with a lot of people saying it isn’t, …”
And, what strikes me is how arbitrary the decision is. Obama can call it terrorism, or not, and can cite “legalese” to support the decision either way.
The problem being that for the same action, in this case the shooting of nine people, it falling into the terrorism category, makes the suspect subject to new and flawed “war on terror” proceedings.
Whether or not this one guy is treated like José Padilla was, it doesn’t change the fact that the system was created for whichever individuals or political enemy groups Obama wants it to.
Yeah, since Obama created the system and rules it like a dictator…
I thought I saw it was the stinkin shrub who started H.S.,and initiated the P.A.I did,I did!(see that pussypolecat)Obombas a pathetic follower.
According to Glenn, the “mainstream media” ignores everything that he agrees with. I’ve read at least five articles today (Vox, Daily Beast, CNN, NYT) that either raised the issue or declared it was indeed terrorism. Aren’t they the awful “mainstream media” you all so consistently bitch and moan about? Decrying the state of the mainstream media is overplayed and self-defeating. Therefore it is not my prerogative, so I commented on the substance, in accordance with U.S. law.
But the US government’s charges were part of Glenn’s post. He said: “Even when U.S. Muslim groups called for the incident to be declared “terrorism,” the FBI continued to insist it “was handling the case ‘as a criminal matter of an assault on a federal officer’ and that it was not being considered as an act of terror.”
Lastly, I explained why I believed people may not necessarily associate terrorism with this guy. Jose, do you even read the full article and comment you are responding to?
Glenn has linked to the Bergen piece at CNN on how it should be called terrorism, so he’s well aware of that. It’s clear the issue is being debated more than usual, because of the major undeniable racial and political overtones.
Your broader point seems to be that people are well-intentioned in their confusion about the term, as in this case there’s no association with an identifiable group like ISIS or al-Qaeda. That argument falls apart when you consider the Boston bombing. The associated group is, clearly, Muslims.
Interesting material here. 9/11 in fact met item B ii & iii – get USA out of Saudi Arabia was a stated purpose – but Bush emphasized the vague “hates us for our freedoms”. Oddly enough, he officially disqualifyied 9/11 from the full terrorism definition here — not that we really need to take this definition and all of its conditions for some kind of meaningful authority.
I linked to the Huffington Post article already.
While relevant, it changes very little in Greenwald’s basic assertion – that the knee-jerk response to Muslim violence is to immediately call it ‘terrorism,’ while this label is used with much more reluctance in other situations.
The problem is America’s fucked-up culture, in my opinion. The establishment, the criminal underworld (but I repeat myself)…
You still have to prove it at trial, and the elements of proof, which might not be evident in a simple reading of the 18 U.S. Code statute, may be complex — and may not have much case law to rely on. Nine counts of capital murder are easier to prosecute, and given the hasty and sloppy nature of U.S. capital cases, easier to get to Death Row.
As for the flags on his shirt, a search of web sites may show what groups display them as a matter of course. That’s not proof of guilt or conspiracy, either, but it might show a stochastic effect. Terrorism usually means some kind of concerted mind-set, i.e., more than one, and frankly a look at U.S. statutes on criminal conspiracy might be more persuasive than something as arcane as 18 USC 2331.
@coram nobis:
This rambling, dramatic, preacher-like ego-centric speech that the judge made from his power pulpit position preceding the bond hearing seems incredibly — and officially — inappropriate. Any text you can offer about such an act from the bench?
http://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2015/06/19/charleston-church-shooting-dylann-roof-bond-hearing-nr.cnn
My, thanks for posting that link, as troubling as it was to watch. I’m not Coram, of course, but the judges declaring there were victims on the other side as well struck me as a bit inappropriate. Yes, we should seek mercy, but that just struck me as – well, kind of out there for the situation.
Then there was Roof himself. Did you folks see the eyes? My word for them would be soulless. Sad and chilling. You have to wonder how ANYONE can be so twisted.
From the ABA Model Code of Judicial Conduct:
For whatever it’s worth.
Here is a list of “terrorist” bombings just in Pakistan, just in 2012. There are 652 incidents listed http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries/pakistan/database/bombblast2012.htm
Nobody really believes Glenn’s strawman definition of terrorism, that “only” Muslims do it. It just happens to occur in Muslim countries more than anywhere else.
Then those who stereotype Islam by saying that it’s a religion that sanctions violence against non-combatants, which it doesn’t, should call it a religion of victims.
Actually, you’re the one making the straw man argument considering Glenn never said what you accuse of him of saying.
It doesn’t matter if no one really believes Glenn’s definition. That is largely the operational definition of terrorism. A lot of people are reluctant to apply it in other scenarios, and work hard to come up with rationalizations (evidently).
In the US, officials and media talking about “the terrorist threat” are referring to terrorist acts in the US, not overseas terrorism. And most by this also ONLY mean the Muslim domestic terror threat, even though there have been far more terrorist acts committed by white extremists since 9/11 than by Muslims (and throughout all the country’s history). And that’s the problem–officials and the media refusing to describe acts by white extremists as terrorism even though they are. The results are much greater resources, surveillance, infiltration/entrapment, and laws directed only at Muslims despite white extremists actually being more dangerous.
If there were non-Muslim terrorists some people wouldn’t be able to make this oft-repeated statement:
“While not all Muslims are terrorists, ALL terrorists are Muslims!”
Here’s another front page story for the Sunday Times: the US state department has concluded that Iran still supports terrorism by virtue of their aggressive foreign policy that is often contrary to the interests of the American government…(What will Obama say if Iran starts killing people with flying robots??? Pot, meet kettle.)
– “WASHINGTON — Iran continued its “terrorist-related” activity last year and also continued to provide broad military support to President Bashar al-Assad of Syria, the State Department said Friday in its annual report on terrorism.
The report does not contend that Iranian officials are conspiring to kill Americans. Nor does it accuse Iraqi militias backed by Iran of plotting to attack American advisers in Iraq. The report also does not provide specific figures on Iranian operations that might indicate whether they are increasing or decreasing.
But it paints a picture of an aggressive Iranian foreign policy that has often been contrary to the interests of the United States.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/20/world/middleeast/state-department-terrorism-report-iran-syria.html?_r=0
Let’s keep the plot straight here.
It’s hard enough to just win the argument (with the Average White American Citizen) that white citizens in America can be terrorists too: it’s hardly a done deal. There hasn’t been such an prominent indicator of the reality of right wing white American terrorism since the 60s (other than the Fed building bombing in the 90s, which you might note put just a bit of a dent in the burgeoning militia movement of the time). This is one of those moments where large numbers of people change their minds about all kinds of things – even the Average White American.
The biggest reason that the distinction about what civilian acts get called “terrorism” matters is that right now there are a few groups — Muslims, minority rights advocates, environmentalists, “anarchists”, activists of all stripes except the right wing ones — that are being subjected to EXTRA government scrutiny. And violence. The other day, as readers of this site know, a Muslim was killed by police on the grounds that he might do something “terrorist” later.
Include the right white folks in the “potential terrorist” groupings and the dynamic changes dramatically – either they, meaning all of us white folks, suffer the same scrutiny too. Or else the whole setup is revealed for what it is: a racist, classist, protectionist scam.
Concentrate on the ramifications of this for a bit.
This is why I maintain it is a bad time to try to also get everybody to go along with the idea of “state terrorism,” because it’s been hard enough just to get white people in America to admit that white people in America can be terrorists rather than merely crazy people. God, let that sink in a bit before you tell them ‘oh yeah, by the way, your government is a bunch of terrorists you elected,’ however true this may be. I want to win, not just feel right about stuff.
– “This is why I maintain it is a bad time to try to also get everybody to go along with the idea of “state terrorism,” because it’s been hard enough just to get white people in America to admit that white people in America can be terrorists rather than merely crazy people.”
Interesting, on the other hand, solving one of those, might solve the other. The only thing this brings to mind for me is that, after having witnessed Americans kill, by some estimates, hundreds of thousands of innocent people at home and around the world, just in the last two decades, I don’t think it would be hard for blowhards in the media and in government to convince an impressionable or stupid 21 year old to kill nine.
This guy was a simple lone criminal AND part of America’s racist devotion to solving political problems with guns. Ending war-of-aggression politics could help to reduce domestic violent crime, and reducing racist gun crime at home, would mean that the racist and violent behaviour is not there to be exported globally.
Good points, maybe the two would take care of each other. I’m wary of the argument on what to call terrorism getting incoherent and going nowhere, but maybe it all works out.
By the way, thanks for alerting us to E. W. Jackson. I mean wow, just when I think I’ve seen the worst.
A very neolibcon statement,that last.I’d rather win and be right,any day.Honor has left the building ;(
There’s nothing dishonorable about making one argument at a time. I’m hardly telling everybody to go vote Hillary so you can cut the “neolibcon” crap.
@Vic Perry –
“The biggest reason that the distinction about what civilian acts get called “terrorism” matters is that right now there are a few groups — Muslims, minority rights advocates, environmentalists, “anarchists”, activists of all stripes except the right wing ones — that are being subjected to EXTRA government scrutiny.”
I was thinking along the same lines – especially about environmental protesters – which do seem to come under the surveillance umbrella and sometimes referred to by LE in terrorist terms.
About right-wingers – hmmm.. I’m not so sure they’re NOT being looked in these terms, but certainly not as blatantly.
As Glenn points out, the label “terrorist” is most vocally applied and certainly sticks to those who commit violence and are Muslims. However, I think we’d all better look out as since this label is clearly so ‘meaningless’ that it COULD easily be applied to – whoever. Maybe it hasn’t – YET – but what about coming days?
This is funny, FOX thinks it was an anti-Christian crime, if it were racism, the shooting would have happened on a basketball court:
– “E.W. JACKSON: Well, yeah. I don’t know whether the—most people jump to conclusions about race. I long for the day when we stop doing that in our country. But we don’t know why he went into a church. But he didn’t choose a bar. He didn’t choose a basketball court. He chose a church.”
http://www.democracynow.org/2015/6/19/south_carolina_massacre_why_dont_we?autostart=true
Here’s Jon Stewart’s take, (imagine if America’s real newscasters were this truthful, instead of being too busy telling porkies about how their helicopter was shot down by evil Muslims with WMDs.)
– “If this had been what we thought was Islamic terrorism, it would fit into our — we invaded two countries and spent trillions of dollars and thousands of American lives and now fly unmanned death machines over five or six different countries, all to keep Americans safe. We got to do whatever we can. We’ll torture people. We gotta do whatever we can to keep Americans safe.
Nine people shot in a church. What about that? “Hey, what are you gonna do? Crazy is as crazy is, right?” “
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/style-blog/wp/2015/06/19/read-jon-stewarts-blistering-monologue-about-race-terrorism-and-gun-violence-after-charleston-church-massacre/
Stewart’s job is to spin this as an anti 2nd Amendment ‘liberal’ issue that supposes all right-wingers are racist and all left-wingers just love all black people. He wants this man labeled as a terrorist to bolster his (Stewart’s) part in establishment theater, he doesn’t give a crap about Muslims any more than Obama does – even in what you cited, Stewart is concerned primarily with the cost to the US in terms of *American* money and lives, nor addressing the corporatist/militarist resource-looting aspects of all US intervention, but ultimately excusing it all (even torture and drone strikes) as degrees of overreaction that is ostensibly meant to keep us safe.
At least Greenwald is arguing that the terrorist label is inconsistently applied, and largely used manipulatively to condemn frustrated ‘Islamic’ (and personally I would add ‘anarchist’) interference with the West in direct response to intervention or corruption. Stewart just wants to be the other side to Fox News, not to actually challenge the current propagandistic culture or system as a whole.
This is a very poor and inaccurate reading of what Stewart said, Cindy.
What JLocke quoted should have by itself alerted you to this not being some libs v. conservatives thing. Stewart very specifically addresses the inconsistent application of the term terrorist only to foreigners and mentions specifically our wars and dronings in contrast to our national tendency to downplay white violence as ‘crazies’ – it’s the argument made on this site for quite some time, in other words, and it’s worth noting.
Furthermore you sound paranoid when you talk about what Stewart’s ideological “job” is, as if he’s all part of the big conspiracy. yeah, it’s establishment theater, maaaaaaan. Cuz the straights can’t handle it, you know? I can see that big cultural change you say we need is going to be real fun.
Unsurprisingly, I disagree with you.
But your comment was amusing.
To Vic Perry,
You do realize Stewart IS a liberal and does generally tow the ideological line, right?
The phrase “tow the ideological line” is dumb here but sure, he IS a liberal. What’s your point? I’m kind of like a liberal too, so you can tell me what I am now.
Or, let me put it this way. I think Jon Stewart actually thinks the things he says are true, except maybe when he has a guest on who is in a rotten movie – that is indeed business. I don’t think in his monologues he’s doing some job for his powerful masters who control his puppet strings, I think when his insights are limited those are genuine limits (but he changes his mind over time too, it’s almost like he’s a person).
“Tow the line, Jon,” the evil, half-dead thoughtmaster whispered, giving a slight tug on the encrusted rope only the two of them could see. “Tow the line.”
Of course there is conspiracy to frame the news by Zion,and Stewart wouldn’t be on air if he didn’t comply with his masters,although he does push the domestic,as opposed to foreign affairs, envelope somewhat. His brother heads or headed the NYSE.C’mon now.
Roof should be labeled a terrorist because his actions had a political motive. He claimed he wanted to start a race war. America needs to not fall for the terrorist demands. We need to heal together and stand together. We cannot make the same mistakes as 9/11 and give up liberties and freedoms. Don’t give up our guns because of some psycho terrorist.
Instead we should all stand up to the real issue with these mass shooters. Big Pharma and its mass murder SSRI drugs.
Big List of Drug-Induced Killers:
http://www.wnd.com/2015/06/big-list-of-drug-induced-killers/#!
“Perhaps the only way people will start to see that, or at least be bothered by it, is if it becomes clear that not just marginalized minority groups but also their own group can be swept up by its elasticity and meaninglessness.”
Unfortunately it usually takes an absurdity affecting the larger body of people to finally break through the masterfully propagandized fog the bulk of society lives in. If that’s what it’s going to take, we can hope for an occasion that reveals the absurdity to all at once, on a human level, not racial or ethnic or religious, something that transcends divisions. Thanks for the article Glenn. Don’t let the fire go out.
Killing people is already criminal. We don’t need the concept of “terrorism”.
The reason we have “terrorism” is that it’s an end run around the law for the political floater class.
They can kidnap people, steal their assets, and even torture and kill them – all without repercussions – just as long as they remember to say “terrorism”.
We need the concept of terrorism here because it has been unequally applied. Ironically, even if one thinks the concept of terrorism is terribly flawed, the only way to remedy this is to bring it in more rather than less often.
By the way, “killing people is already criminal” — well, there are degrees of “criminal” — punishment for killing people varies based on the motive. The difference between 1st and 2nd degree murder, not to mention manslaughter, is all based on motive and circumstance. So there’s no implicit reason why “hate crimes” or “terrorism” are automatically irrelevant distinctions in terms of how we judge killings.
PRO: Distinguishes terrorist murder from other kinds of 1st degree murder.
CON: Gives elite insiders an excuse to quell dissent, kidnap, steal, torture, and kill with impunity.
The cons far outweigh the pros. The whole concept of “terrorism” is authoritarian and regressive.
I don’t disagree with your pros and cons. But you are not going to get people to just abandon the concept, at least not as quickly as you could get people to admit they’ve been applying it selectively. Oddly enough a more widespread application of the word could help remove its special powers.
The entire article, as admirable as its intent and underlying thesis may be, is one big contradiction. It simultaneously argues that i) “terrorism” means nothing and ii) “terrorism” means violence committed by Muslims. It is not “malleable” if it simply denotes the latter, as Glenn demonstrates it does. Just like “begs the question” now means “raises the question,” you don’t get to dictate how people use words, even if the weight of history (or historical usage rather) and common sense is on your side. People are stupid and language evolves accordingly. There is no “consistent, objective meaning” to any word or phrase, ever — just like there is no such thing as an objective journalist, as Glenn points out to mentally challenged critics.
Also, “rage over bailouts” would be the position of a CAPITALIST, not an anti-capitalist (you know, as long as we’re getting all flustered about definitions.)
The whole point is that it has no definition beyond that.
It’s malleable precisely because this is not what anyone admits it means. It’s just how it’s applied.
Then why did so many capitalists support it, and so many anti-capitalists oppose it?
I don’t know whom you identify as “capitalists,” but I’m a capitalist and I consider bankruptcy an indispensable aspect of the system. Capitalism denotes the private ownership of the means of production (physical capital), and when taxpayer property is confiscated to give to powerful people that squandered their resources, that is “crony capitalism,” “fascism,” or any number of things that are most decidedly not capitalism. People that support bailouts are not capitalists, by definition — states directing resources and picking winners is in fact the opposite of capitalism. Hope that answers your question.
But many people believe capitalism will always result in crony capitalism. Therefore, if bank-bailouts are crony capitalism, then to many people things like bank-bailouts are an inevitable result of capitalism.
Many people believe all sorts of stupid things. I try to not let that determine my position.
” Capitalism denotes the private ownership of the means of production”, you forgot it also owns the motive force of production. “states directing resources and picking winners is in fact the opposite of capitalism”, methinks the opposite is true. Or can capitalism operate without a “state”?
You’re right, I didn’t mention “the motive force of production.” Frankly, that’s because I have no idea wtf that means.
Capitalism requires a state to enforce property rights and contracts; that’s why I always gift “free market anarchists” dictionaries.
That is such a simplistic retort. See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWuT8d78yts
“Commonly understood” since no discussion is allowed re 911. So yes, commonly understood meaning of terror, as decided by TPTB, is the act of flying a jet into a building. Check.
What about the act of remotely piloting a cruise missile into the side of a building? Or remotely guiding a Hellfire missile into a building? it’s not terror if Americans push the button, it’s our superior weaponry that prevents the need for boots-on-the-ground. It is ‘God’s Hand’ and it’s on our shoulder.
Apart from Muslims, the establishment is happy to apply the label to anyone who might conceivably challenge their power. Joe Biden, Mitch McConnell and others have called Assange a terrorist. Anonymous is often called a terrorist organization. The FBI investigated Occupy as a terrorist group.
Yes, yes, good point.
From the Huffington Post:
“Federal authorities are investigating the shooting of nine people in an African-American church in Charleston, South Carolina from a variety of angles, including as a potential act of domestic terrorism, a Justice Department official said Friday. DOJ had previously said the incident was being investigated as a potential hate crime. ‘The department’s investigation of the shooting incident in Charleston, South Carolina, is ongoing,’ spokeswoman Emily Pierce said in a statement. ‘This heartbreaking episode was undoubtedly designed to strike fear and terror into this community, and the department is looking at this crime from all angles, including as a hate crime and as an act of domestic terrorism.'”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/19/charleston-shooting-domestic-terrorism_n_7623704.html
So although Greenwald is obviously making a larger point, even the establishment is saying terrorism about this, at least potentially. But what they’re not saying is it’s because America is fucked up, which is really the issue.
I’ll repeat what I said below, as my point is likely to get lost in the barrage, and it’s a vital point if I do say so myself:
“The fact is, it’s a result of America’s unimaginative and violent culture, a thought-system that can’t (for example) distinguish between the violence in entertainment or games and real life, a fixation ultimately with the belief that violence – particularly lethal violence – solves problems and sets boundaries. The police believe it, the government believes it, the military believes it, criminals believe it, racists believe it, indeed the whole country largely believes it and wallops it into their children. But the prideful nation won’t admit that, so they’ll call all America’s violence and killing something *other* than a result of a defective national culture.” (Cindy Anna Jones*)
*Nickname my dad gave me.
*As long as didn’t also call the dog that…
One of the many definitions of the word has to do with the idea that only non-state actors can be terrorists, fighting “asymmetrical” wars. But only the state can truly terrorize large populations. What else can we call the Goebbels-inspired fear-mongering that the last two administrations have engaged in, with the accompanying erasure of civil rights, and the economic terrorism that makes almost all Americans job insecure to such a degree that they are afraid to take vacations and will work any number of hours to avoid getting fired. And of course there is the police state terrorism that completely erases the value of the lives of African Americans and other minorities.
It is useful to have Muslim scapegoats to be the focus of Americans’ rage and frustration and anxiety that comes from the pressure of living under such state terror.
the economic terrorism that makes almost all Americans job insecure to such a degree that they are afraid to take vacations and will work any number of hours to avoid getting fired.
My husband has seen two colleagues at Chase “laid off” after using the Family and Medical Leave Act. An act designed to give people the time they needed to deal with family illness and tragedy.
I have seen the act used appropriately, with people in need given the support they needed to get through a rough time, but too often these laws have all the leeway and loopholes needed so that big corporations can abuse them imperviously.
Terrible. I wish people could see all of this for the oppression it is. The wrong targets for people’s anger are too easily manufactured.
Totally agree with you and Pedinska.
The word ‘Terrorism’ seems to be primarily used as a term for race-baiting.
I recently watched an old film on the WWII battle for Okinawa. One aspect I found interesting was the absolute terror displayed by the actors on board ship while ‘waiting’ for a Kamikaze attack. The terrible assault of a piloted bomb was fear-inducing like nothing else. The film seemed to depict the act of suicide attacks as not Christian. I had a friend (Catholic) who served briefly in Iraq and he claimed his greatest fear while stationed there was a person willing to give his own life in an effort to take the life of an American. He saw such an effort as inherently evil; i.e. it was work of The Devil, a supernatural force.
Clearly the church shooter is not a supernatural force as he’s not black or brown or yellow; He’s WHITE.
I believe the first? suicide attack in WW2 was by an American named Kelly who flew his plane into a Japanese ship.
And he was called a hero.
Indeed, “terrorism” is a powerful term, powerful because it is so amorphous and yet malleable. It’s an official method of characterizing particular groups of society that government wishes to single out, and it’s a term that justifies whatever extraordinary means to stamp on it, and it’s a form of official propaganda with which to set national norms. It justifies everything, as you say Glenn, but it can mean whatever the powers that be want it to mean. Does this kind of language sound familiar these days?
http://art-bin.com/art/omoscowtoc.html
This, from the indictment in “The Case of the Trotskyite-Zinovievite Terrorist Centre” of 1936. Seems kind of obscure now, but it was a big deal at the time, and a wonderful object lesson in how the use of the term terrorism can at once define the enemies of the state, serve the interests of the state in pursuing those enemies, whip up a level of propaganda that drowns out any other discourse, and justifies, legitimizes in a crude way, the whole process — as well as enabling sequels. This show trial had several big revivals in 1937 and 1938 with new casts of defendants.
So, QED as to Glenn’s point, the term can justify everything, but it means anything the powers-that-be want it to mean. And you’d better not contradict that meaning if you know what’s good for you.
Jon Stewart rather prominently called it terrorism yesterday. He even made the same comparisons that Greenwald has long made, regarding the way the media treats “foreign” and especially Muslim caused violence as huge threats while downplaying white violence as craziness. I’m glad he made this argument at this moment; maybe we can have a real conversation about this in this country now.
I greatly admire Glenn Greenwald and Stewart, so it would be nice if Greenwald would just acknowledge and build upon Stewart’s statement (and maybe mention some of the other people in the media who have called it terrorism by name in the article) instead of writing this “why does no one call it terrorism” article that is already out of date.
The key question everyone must ask is, “does this violence potentially threaten me?”. If the answer is yes, then the violence is an act of terrorism.
So while terrorism may not have an objective definition, it does have validity as a subjective term. Different groups may not agree, but in a democracy this is resolved by adopting the viewpoint of the dominant group.
And that is about as succinct a state-of-the-union message as we’ll find.
You’ve worked very hard to miss the point. Yes it’s terrorism, but the question isn’t one of race or religion. In fact, you’re so blinded by the horrible carnage that you can only see the same narrative that has been planted and argued time and time again.
It’s not terrorism because, hey, White Folks can be Terrorists Too!
It’s terrorism because this tongue-rolling, psych-drugged, racist “lone wolf” was pointed directly at a state senator on the eve of the 2016 presidential campaign kickoff! Reverend Pinckney spent the day helping Hillary Clinton campaign (according to Wikipedia, I know…). He was an up-and-coming political player who would have had more support in the south because of his church connections than Barack Obama ever dreamed of. He could have been Clinton’s running mate or a cabinet appointee.
He was assassinated in a place and time where he was easily accessible. Yes, terrorism. But we, you, the feds, the news media, need to pull back a bit and ask who guided this kid in this direction at this particular time. And the even uglier question: whose side are they on?
@PB –
WOW – great questions to ponder, though we may never know for sure…
I certainly aint on Shillarys side,no way,no how.
Truth is it’s being called terrorism, or a result of too much gun-availability, or a hate crime, or an expression of racism, or a hatred of religion, or even a manifestation of either mental illness or prescription drug use!
It all depends on who you ask, it seems.
The fact is, it’s a result of America’s unimaginative and violent culture, a thought-system that can’t (for example) distinguish between the violence in entertainment or games and real life, a fixation ultimately with the belief that violence – particularly lethal violence – solves problems and sets boundaries. The police believe it, the government believes it, the military believes it, criminals believe it, racists believe it, indeed the whole country largely believes it and wallops it into their children.
But the prideful nation won’t admit that, so they’ll call all America’s violence and killing something *other* than a result of a defective national culture .
So we would have a more productive outcome if we decide to blame it on our “defective national culture”? Cool. What next?
Change the culture by education, uplifting art, and above all dropping the ‘exceptionalism’ nonsense.
The nation is in denial about its addiction to the fixation of violence, so ‘what next?’ amounts to ‘national therapy.’
I think it would be more productive than continuing with denial, yes.
Lately I’ve been seeing all this talk about violence like it was some free floating virus instead of the result of actual human decision making. Is anybody actually responsible for actions or can they just blame “culture” for their violence?
Who does this “national therapy,” and what is their power? Are they an institution? Will they fall into the usual patterns of institutions, i.e. perpetuating their own existence?
I’m talking about a nationwide revolution of thought. It certainly wouldn’t be an institutional project, but something more organic and anti-establishmentarian, since the present establishment inclusive of most media and govt is corrupted not just by this belief but by corporatism and militarism also.
I don’t think the defective culture is an ‘excuse’ for the violence, but it is the reason why it doesn’t stop.
@Cindy, @Vic Perry –
Lots of food for thought from both of you here. Yes, I agree with Cindy that we need more uplifting art, education, and culture. I’ve long thought that. As per Vic’s question about personal responsibility for violence, I’ll give my two cents: Of course, individuals are responsible for their actions – and should be accountable for acts of violence they commit. However, I do think we need to realize that the culture around us DOES have an effect on us. Thankfully, most folks (at least I hope it’s not most) don’t become violent, the images and all we surround ourselves with can make us at least somewhat numbed to it. I watch too much tv and generally enjoy crime shows.. but sometimes one gets too horrific or I’ve just had enough and need to get away to something different.
You might be interested in what I wrote about here in response to a poster shown on “Antiques Roadshow”:
http://observergal.blogspot.com/2015/02/antiques-roadshow-fails-at-images-of.html
And feel free to browse (I’d be honored…) latest post is about Charleston.
I agree. The US government sets an example and normalizes violence as a way to address political grievances. When even “liberal” women say things like the following, what can you expect?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlz3-OzcExI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEtdw7Z04QQ
I’m sure Sony would disagree with your categorization here. That American company was the victim of a cyber terror attack.
hmmm… interesting point. So, the Chinese breaking into OPM? Act of Terrorism or Act of War?
You forgot the “cyber” modifier, very important.
I can not answer your question, as I need more information. Were the Chinese hackers Muslim?
Sony is American? Pretty sure it’s a Japanese company.
“Twitter users around the world en masse used the hashtag of solidarity reserved (for some reason) only for cities attacked by a Muslim (but not cities attacked by their own governments):”
I’m confused on what you are referring to here by “cities attacked by their own governments” are you asking where are the #aleppostrong or #tikritstrong hashtags to support people on the opposite side of their central government in a civil war? Or are you the “their” referring to the twitter users, who you said are “around the world” and thus are divided among nations who are at war and those who are not at war?
Anyways I think you are wrong about the major argument that there is some widespread refusal to call this terrorism. Bill O’Reily called it terrorism and explicitly said “this is no different than what Al Queda and ISIS do.” There are prominent op-eds making the same argument in the Washington Post, CNN.com, and elsewhere. This is a real change from the past.
I’m asking why those hashtags aren’t used when the US or its allies (Israel and Saudis, for instance) kill large number of innocent civilians.
Almost no major media outlets described this as a “terror attack” or the shooter as a “terrorist.” Yes, some people objected and said it should be described that way – and I discussed that – but the predominant way of talking about this was not ‘Terrorism.” Obama – the President of the US – called them “senseless murders” and didn’t mention the T word.
Obama tends to be hesitant to use the T word, he didn’t in his remarks on the Boston Bombing for example: http://swampland.time.com/2013/04/15/president-obama-remarks-on-the-boston-marathon-tragedy-transcript/
Also Google Obama + “Workplace Violence” and you will get a flood of angry stuff from conservatives about how Obama “refused” to call the Fort Hood shooting terrorism. Hell the entire Benghazi controversy boils down to the fear from Conservatives that Obama fundamentally doesn’t believe that terrorism is a real thing. There is more nuance in American politics/media than there may have been a decade ago when you started on this beat but you are not allowing yourself to consider this possibility.
As for the hashtag issue, for starters Twitter wasn’t around when the US was bombing cities on the scale of Baghdad or Kabul and there were a shit-ton of hashtags flying around last summer for Gaza – don’t ask me why the pro Palestine crowd on Twitter didn’t consolidate on a single English language “strong” phrase, I don’t run in those circles. I also don’t know why there is isn’t a #sanaastrong campaign – maybe not enough English speakers care compared to Gaza or Boston?
Exactly. If a group lacks the cohesiveness to adopt a common twitter hashtag, it is pointless for it to complain that its message is marginalized.
In future, political coalitions will form around twitter hashtags. Members of the coalition will have an implicit agreement to support the hashtag and not create strife by discussing other topics, which might only serve to fragment and divide them.
Anyone posting a #GazaStrong hashtag would’ve immediately been flagged as a “terrorist”. That’s an elementary observation. The prevailing narrative is that Israel has a right to retaliate, and Gazans only have a right to take any abuse a be quiet about it.
FBI definition:
“Domestic terrorism” means activities with the following three characteristics:
Involve acts dangerous to human life that violate federal or state law;
Appear intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination. or kidnapping; and
Occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S.
he’s 3 for 3. seems simple.
Not sure – most historians would still refer to the Jewish extremist ‘terrorism’ campaign against the British presence in Palestine in the 1940s. And of course Timothy McVeigh is commonly referred to as a terrorist, and they don’t come much whiter. Maybe you need to have at least one of the following three elements to qualify: bomb / Muslim / (and post 9/11) aircraft.
My uncle served in the RAF in Palestine ~1946. He saw two British sergeants dead, hanged from lampposts by Jews …
The only reason why Timothy McVeigh is referred to as a “terrorist” is because, before he was ID’d as the OKC bomber, the news orgs belched and howled that this was a “TERRORIST ATTACK” when those newshounds believed that it was the work of some Islamic Terror Group. When it turned out that it was not an Islamic Terror Group, but Homegrown Militia, they were all left holding the bag with egg on their face. And there would be no ability to backtrack on this one.
I saw Van Jones tweet that the shooter should be referred to as a “White racist terrorist”.
He was widely ridiculed for this suggestion, quite unsurprisingly of course.
AMEN! (yes, I believe)
I also believe that the argument goes deeper than painting one group or another as “the axis of evil”. You didn’t mention that the weapon used holds deep symbolism with the media controlled usage of the label terrorist.
ie.,
Boston Bombing… Terrorist (bomb)
Oklahoma City… Terrorist (bomb)
Shoe Bomber… Terrorist (bomb)
Columbine… Shooter (gun)
DC Sniper… Shooter (gun)
If you use a gun to commit a terrorist act in this country you aren’t a terrorist. (even if the definition of Sniper includes the word “Terror” as one of the specific objectives of a Sniper). We are too married to guns in this country to ever consider a gun user as a terrorist.
Interesting idea. Needs more data.
And Glenn provides a counter-example (Canada) directly in the article.
This is weird meme that keeps popping up, we must call Dylann Roof “a terrorist” or we’re not taking this attack seriously. Who exactly is refusing to call this an act of terrorism anyways? I know Fox News tried to spin it as an attack on Christians initially, but they seem to have eventually acknowledged that it was a Hate Crime (which is also a vague and loaded term). I’m fine with calling Roof a terrorist, he appears to have acted alone, but clearly his motives were political and obviously there is a historical context that he fits into and a movement of like minded people. Now the obvious difference between Roof and a terrorist like OBL is that OBL is a hero to millions and inspired a global movement that really is changing the world. You can debate the precise meaning of “Terrorism” but just because a term is abstract doesn’t make it useless. It seems like Glenn’s core problem w/ “Terrorism” is that he thinks anyone picks up a gun and shouts “allahu akbar” is as justified in committing in an act of violence as a police officer or a solider, that he rejects the state-monopoly on violence.
“clearly his motives were political”..
Could you please expand on this statement? I think, at this juncture, Dylann’s motives are unknown. If one were to judge his “motives” they would only be the result of hearsay statements from those who have spoken with the media attaching some unverified relationship with Dylann as a proof of the truth of their statements.
Additionally, I have always had trouble with labeling people as belonging to a “group” who jointly hold similar characteristics. Q: What “historical context” do you think Dylann fits into and what “movement” do you associate with Dylann to identify his behavior attached to this particular act?
Just wondering….
I’m all for the abolition of the word entirely: if it means nothing, then it means nothing to use it (read: waste of time and energy)
BUT, if we are forced into this War On Terrorism paradigm, with this lofty and evolving definition of the word, this act was clearly “Terrorism” whether or not affiliation with a group can be identified or not.
Let’s take the case of “ISIS-inspired attacks”. According to New York Times analysis from two days ago, when a deranged homeless man attacked NYPD officers with an axe last year he was a terrorist (yes, he was Muslim). Enter the new phrase “lone wolf” and “[blank]-inspired” and voila: Terrorism.
So by our current working lofty definition, you don’t actually need to be a part of a group or even have contact with said group. You just need to be “inspired” and “lone” and you are a terrorist, no matter how pathetic your “attack” is. (The homeless axe man was shot dead before he could kill anyone, an officer did sustain injuries however.)
So with this in mind, I think to fucking hell with this word, let’s just stop using it entirely. It is destructive, not just to foreign lands and our civil liberties, but to our minds as well. 9/11 REALLY fucked us all up in the heads if we are actually having this conversation in 2015. Give it a few years and we’ll arrive to “was that bank robber a terrorist? was that rapist a terrorist? was that turnstile jumper a terrorist? was that litter bug a terrorist?”
“So by our current working lofty definition, you don’t actually need to be a part of a group or even have contact with said group. You just need to be “inspired” and “lone” and you are a terrorist, no matter how pathetic your “attack” is.”
Well it gets murky when someone is a lone wolf terrorist without any apparent group connections like Dylann (who may very well be deranged himself) or the homeless man you mention. But then if you don’t want to use the word “terrorist” what word would you use to describe violent non-state actors like Al Qaeda?
That is a good question. Here are a few alternatives:
paramilitary
militia
rebels (not really useful for Al Qaeda, but works well for groups like FARC)
militants
occupiers (might be a better word for ISIS than “terrorists”)
gang (we’re really boiling down to the semantics here, The Bloods are not “terrorists”, but they have national organization within the USA)
In my opinion though, paramilitary is the best general choice. It is abstract and not political — any armed group of sufficient size and organization can be called this, even the NYPD. Other words have more specific or technical definitions which preclude them from being used in one place or another.
But you get my drift, we can adopt the best word on a case-by-case basis. One of the biggest problems with the word “terrorism” is it depicts complex conflicts between parties as black and white, but nothing is that simple. For instance, we are encountering the awkward position today where ISIS and Al Qaeda are both “terrorists” but they oppose each other and are worlds apart in terms of their tactics, goals, capabilities, etc. . Try to compare Al Qaeda to the IRA, depending on who you are talking to you might get punched in the mouth. One word can’t mean everything.
I think, at this juncture, Dylann’s motives are unknown.
It seems to me there is plenty of evidence that speaks to his motives, much of it from his own mouth:
*http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/dylann-roof-confesses-charleston-church-shooting-report-article-1.2263668
**http://gawker.com/cousin-of-charleston-pastor-shooter-said-you-rape-our-1712203419
Reports of these statements have been quite widespread by now. I think one would have to be a bit purposely obtuse to refuse to acknowledge this information speaks quite directly to motives.
Good, well thought out article..Thanks!
Doesn’t including this genuine act of political racist violence just bolster the other bullshit uses of the term? Support our police state regime and we will occasionally use it against invididuals who harm you!
As more and more government agencies around the globe become increasingly dependent on the impossibility of adequately defining terrorism, their respective mouthpieces won’t be dropping it from their lexicon, no matter how utterly biased. Especially when various ongoing practices by said governments would be the prime examples under any logical definition of the term.