One year ago today, Israel invaded, bombed and shelled Gaza, and continued to do that for the next seven weeks. According to the U.N., at least 2,104 Gazans were killed — 1,462 of whom (69 percent) were civilians, including 495 children. A total of 6 Israeli civilians, and 66 soldiers, were killed. The shockingly high civilian death rate in Gaza included the now-iconic imagery of four young boys from the same family being killed by Israeli warships while they played on a beach in front of a hotel filled with foreign journalists.
Months after the attack concluded, U.N. Chief Ban Ki-moon visited Gaza and labeled the destruction “beyond description,” far worse than prior Israeli attacks. At least 17,000 homes “were obliterated or severely damaged during the conflict,” and it will take two decades to rebuild them; that means that “nearly 60,000 people have lost their homes.” On countless occasions, entire large families of Gazans were instantly extinguished by Israeli violence. Because the population of Gaza is so young — 43 percent are under the age of 15, while 64 percent are under the age of 24 — the majority of its residents know little beyond extreme suffering, carnage, violence and war.
As harrowing as that data is, it tells only a small part of the story. Statistics like these have an abstract property to them: cold and clinical. Viewing the devastation of Gaza through their lens can have a distancing effect. They erase the most affecting facts: the stories of human suffering and devastation caused by this attack, the sadism and savagery that drove it.
The unbridled Israeli brutality that drove this attack, combined with the unprecedented ability of Palestinians to document what was happening to them through use of the Internet, significantly changed the way Israel is perceived around the world. This attack will prove to be historically important for how the world regards Israel, and Blumethal’s book is indispensable for understanding what happened here.
Even in the world of the Israel/Palestine debate — where smear campaigns and vicious ad hominem attacks are routine — Blumenthal is the target of some of the most scurrilous attacks you’ll ever see. In part that’s because he’s an unlikely candidate to have become one of the most vocal Jewish critics of Israel: the son of a Washington insider closely associated with the Clintons. In part it’s because he’s an unflinching and fearless critic, avoiding euphemisms and niceties when, by design, they obscure the truth. In part it’s because he has in the past sometimes opted for polarizing rhetoric and provocative, illuminating tactics.
But this book will likely surprise even those who have followed Blumenthal’s work and are sympathetic to his worldview. The 51 Day War is remarkably free of polemic, even as it retains its passion. It seems clear, at least to me, that Blumenthal was so moved by what he heard and saw in Gaza that he knew nothing would be more effective and revealing than just letting those stories speak for themselves. So he largely gets out of the way and simply serves as a vessel for the voices of those who are so rarely heard from in the Western world: those who live under Israeli brutality in Gaza.
I spoke with him for roughly 40 minutes about his book, as well as his own odyssey that has led him to devote himself to this topic with such singular devotion. Whatever your views on Israel and Gaza, Blumenthal is articulate, thoughtful and deeply knowledgeable, and has done extensive, real reporting to write this book. He’s very worth listening to, and the book is highly worth the read. Our discussion can be heard on the player below, and a transcript is provided here.
Photo: Adel Hana/AP
******
This transcript has been edited for clarity.
GREENWALD: This is Glenn Greenwald with The Intercept, and my guest today is Max Blumenthal, who, among other things, is the author of a brand new book entitled The 51 Day War: Ruin and Resistance in Gaza. Hey Max, thanks so much for taking the time to chat.
BLUMENTHAL: Great to be on with you, Glenn.
GREENWALD: Yeah, you too. So, the reason I wanted to talk to you isn’t just because you have this very powerful, but, to be perfectly honest, very kind of harrowing and depressing account of the Israeli attack on Gaza. It’s also because it is the one-year anniversary of that war.
And I wanted to begin by asking you this: My perception of the Israeli attack on Gaza, what the Israeli military calls “Operation Protective Edge,” is that the way that it was perceived and talked about and reported around the world was fundamentally different than prior Israeli attacks on Gaza, to the point where I think it actually changed perceptions of both Israel and Gaza in fairly fundamental ways.
And I wanted to begin by asking whether or not you agree with that, and whether you do or you don’t talk about how you think this latest war affected public opinion around the world about Israel, the occupation and its relationship to Gazans.
BLUMENTHAL: I think that’s right, and there are two major factors in why that took place, and why we saw a real shift.
I think Operation Cast Lead in 2008-2009 promoted a real shift in opinion within the political left in the U.S. But during that war, we saw the Israeli government, the government press office which hands out credentials to journalists, bar all journalists from entering the Gaza Strip. And so journalists weren’t able, except for the Palestinian journalists who were living in the Gaza Strip, to actually witness the violence up close. And this is disproportionate violence targeting civilians in a way we had never seen before in the Gaza Strip.
…
[To read the full transcript, click here]
I sometimes feel silly for coming back to check on a thread that is dead or on life support, but in this case I’m glad I did. The phrase “Hasbara practitioner Mona” was well worth the price of admission. In fact, I think Mona should make it her screen name.
Value. That’s what I deliver.
“The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral; returning violence with violence only multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars.” Martin Luther King
Wonderful, as always, to come here and find in-depth coverage and robust debate about events like this. Oddly, I was just fishing around for the editors’ address at TG to complain about the absurd double-standards on Israel. There have been at least three recent articles on various issues– including an incident where a high ranking office shot a Palestinian teen in the back (the forensic evidence –done by a Jewish mortician–confirmed this)– yet none have had open threads. In fact, it’s become a rarity to find any open threads on this country, and this country alone.
The Guardian really needs to address this glaring double-standard. Tragedies in virtually every other country in the world have open comments, and that commentary can be and often is derisive, divisive, ribald, and critical. The Charleston shooting inspired Europeans in droves to excoriate American values, as has each article on all of the other cases of police brutality; Greece’s dilemma has been open for the kind of debate that allows everyone to express a wide array of views, often insulting ones, and all other Middle Eastern countries routinely have their dirty laundry aired. It’s simply surreal that The Guardian forbids discussion on a country with dramatic influence and power.
That stance infantalizes its readership and literally prevents the kind of engagement that could foster change. I’d love to hear an editor there defend, with a straight face, this insidious censorship. The entire point is that those of us whose countries are open for censure survive just fine hearing those criticisms, and more than a few people voice having their opinions changed through debate.
Glenn, thank you for marking the anniversary of this tragedy in such a thoughtful way. Blumenthal provides invaluable insights, as do the posters here. It’s so good to know that there are places that fully embrace free speech.Muzzling people is the one sure way to foster trouble and cultivate frustration and prejudice. You do the opposite with each article.
I don’t know what you are complaining about MM!! The Guardian has lots of funny articles about Israel. Here’s one:
One year after the last massive Israeli bombardment of Gaza, the Israeli ambassador to the UK is complaining that other countries aren’t rebuilding the occupied territories fast enough.
– “reconstruction remains hindered by the failure of international donors to meet their aid pledges…”
That’s how Israel sees the “peace process”. Israeli destroys, others rebuild, and repeat!!!
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/13/israel-peace-pressure-israeli
Israel first (pun) has to ‘borrow’ the funds from America to enable it to wage war on Gaza.
Shorter Israel ambassador:
As the Hasbara practitioner Mona explains, the Jews have had to stick together because the world, for no good reason, has forever-picked upon the Jews. They did not choose themselves; that was done without their permission …
– “The Guardian really needs to address this glaring double-standard.”
There was a short spell where I bothered to comment on the Guardian web site (outside of the Greenwald articles, of course, which had their own moderating rules)
On one article about Assange, Wikileaks, I picked up a persistent opponent. Every point I made, he/she replied. Then several posts in, I noticed that my previous comments were disappearing. Either the moderators took it upon themselves to do it, or they did it based on a complaint.
Since there was no vulgarity, no libelling, and I wasn’t hawking Viagra, I’m left to assume that someone thought that erasing opinions is a preferable substitute for dialogue.
Since I take the time to compose my own thoughts, such as they are, I no longer waste my time at the Guardian.
Hi JLocke
I hear you, on the Guardian site there is an ad to sign up with The Guardian to make sure their fearless reporting can continue, i would sign up on the condition that the fearless reporting has to start to begin with. I can understand that some stories cannot have a comments section due to the nature of the story but denying comments and deleting anything really important is the opposite of journalism. And did the stories by Greenwald really have different rules or was it that they were enforced in a different way or something else?
bobby d – “And did the stories by Greenwald really have different rules or was it that they were enforced in a different way or something else?”
I probably should start by saying, that I believe the Guardian is a great paper, and I applaud “Morning’s Minion”’s attempts to change their comment policies.
To answer your question as best I can, Greenwald had enough readership at “Salon” that he was able to negotiate an agreement with the Guardian that for all intents and purposes, allowed his long time readers, (including me) to feel that they still had the ability to debate back and forth, post supporting quotes and links, have long discussions, go off the immediate topic of the current article.
Sometimes the Guardian moderators didn’t seem to live up to that pact (in one notable incident, apparently in an effort to not run afoul of the UK’s particular media laws, thousands of comments were deleted below one Greenwald article alone). But all in all, long time Guardian readers tried to adjust to the Greenwald setup, long time Greenwald readers tried to adjust to the Guardian, and Greenwald attempted to see eye to eye with the Guardian moderators, on the meaning of their agreement.
…then “Snowden” happened.
Hi JLocke
Thank you for the reply, I would like to say that clears it up… but it does answer my question. Bu I am now confused as to how you say The Guardian is a great paper whilst as the same time saying you will not waste time there. How can The Guardian be considered a great paper when compared to The Intercept which is many times more important. But it might be my current bias against that paper is clouding my judgement, but its like comparing rags to fine tailoring. To me that paper always ducks on an issue that matters, here not so much.
To quote Morning’s Minion, The Guardian’s “stance infantalizes its readership and literally prevents the kind of engagement that could foster change”
– “Bu I am now confused as to how you say The Guardian is a great paper whilst as the same time saying you will not waste time there.”
Yes I frequent the Guardian website, I would characterize it as a great paper, and not only because in the UK, it is often alone among major newspapers in presenting some opinions that I share, but also because of its overall quality.
But to clear up your confusion, I said:
Me – “Since I take the time to compose my own thoughts, such as they are, I no longer waste my time at the Guardian.”
I’m saying there that, in the context of comment, I don’t see the utility of me trying to comment where my opinions are going to be embargoed, pruned, culled, etc. But that’s me. I have nothing against anyone else who wants to wait to see if their comment finds favour with the secret moderation guidelines. Obviously there are many other people who’s opinions regularly match what the Guardian moderators are looking for in a comment. So I leave them to it.
Now, the Guardian readers don’t get my opinions (for what their worth), but that’s not something under my control (and I’d rather argue about Gaza, than try to change the comment policies of an unresponsive newspaper). And I still get the pleasure of arguing with people here at the Intercept who I vehemently disagree with.
I’m not thrilled with The Gruans new Editor (a women, whose name escapes me?). A very noticeable drop in quality adversarial journalism … imo.
*Rusbridger, after squeezing out a couple of Pulitzers from Snowden (&Glenn), was given his marching orders a few months ago.
~ btw JL … nice run-down on the Gruan Mod Squad*. *Iirc, and I do, they were entirely a gaggle of hot chicks and … i, too, tried to butter them up to no avail!
Hi JLocke
Thank you for the reply, I think you have cleared that up for me, but your reply has left another question, when you are arguing about Gaza what are the sides that are debated? You don’t have to answer as you’ve been more than helpful already :)
Not sure how many people are still reading here, but this will cause some heads to explode:
Israel’s change of heart towards Hamas
http://www.middleeasteye.net/columns/israels-change-heart-towards-hamas-291436785#sthash.1QB6wNCv.dpuf
Pedinska
“……he expressed a very different point of view regarding Hamas’ rule over Gaza. “We have to initiate an international campaign to reconstruct Gaza in exchange for a halt to rearming,” he said…..”
That is a very unrealistic request by Israel which Hamas is sure to turn down – and Bennett knows it. Even without the threat of ISIS, “resistance” fighters like Hamas and Hezbollah play power politics. Each governs the most powerful militias in Gaza/West Bank and Lebanon, respectively, and they are not about to let that change. Each sells their services as protection against Israeli aggression. It’s not a free service, however, Their constituents pay a heavy “death” tax – especially the people in Gaza.
Thanks.
CraigSummers – “Israel has none of the laws which defined the system of apartheid.”
Poor Craig. When defenders of Israeli apartheid need to resort to inventing their own fantasy world, it doesn’t auger well for their racist project.
Case in point, Craig here thinks “Arab citizens of Israel have rights – like voting”. Now “some” non Jews are allowed to vote, yes, but even so they are not accorded the full rights of Jews. They are subject to laws levelled at non-Jews. Some non-Jews can vote, but they are nevertheless, the target of discrimination.
Apartheid South Africa had a similar system, for example, so called “colored voters” were given the chance to elect four people to parliament. Just as Israel allows some non-Jews to elect a few members of the Knesset. And beyond voting, “coloreds” still were not full citizens, they were not given full rights as whites were.
But for most non-Jews unfortunately, in Israel as it was for most non-whites in the Apartheid South Africa of the past, millions of people don’t get to vote, at all, for the government that rules over them.
For example, the people of Gaza, they have, zero, votes in the Knesset. They have no say in the direction of the army that rules over them. Just as most non-whites in Apartheid South Africa had zero say in the running of the army that ruled over them.
The whole point of having a racist ethnocracy is to give Jews more power, privilege, than everyone else. That is, “Jewish Democracy”. So you can’t simultaneously promote that, and then expect to convince people that the non Jews are being treated equally. It makes zero sense. Zero sense to claim that people who have zero votes, have equal rights because….some Arab citizens have some rights.
@Craig
One of my favorite movie lines is from “Inglorious Basterds,” when honorary Jew Brad Pitt says “Boys, we got us a Nazi wants to die for country. Oblige him.”
It may well be that Hamas desired civilian casualties in Gaza last year. (This may be somewhat akin to Martin Luther King — a harder man than many realize — wanting his marchers, including children, to be attacked with dogs and firehoses.) But that didn’t mean Israel had to oblige Hamas with such bloody-minded enthusiasm.
Pronounced “Nah-tzee.” Like the word “nah.” I love that movie and the way Pitt’s character says Nazi.
You’re right Mona. For reasons that remain unclear to me, Pitt’s pronunciation of “Nazi” is a big part of the movie’s awesomeness.
Any Hollywood movies about Cast Lead,Protective edge or leveling Lebanon?I wouldn’t watch little Zioscum Tarantino movies if you paid me.Who da Nazis!
Total revisionist feel good yuppie crap.The average German soldier had more morals than the average American soldier today,hands down.
One of my favorite movies.
You are right Gator. Israel will be better off without Netanyahu in charge. I used to support him, but power means more to him than the future of Israel and (obviously) the future of the Palestinians. Israel might be one country where the left might need to be back in charge for awhile. Obviously, no believes that Netanyahu has any real intentions of negotiating other than for political expediency. On the other hand, Greece might need someone on the right as prime Minister to replace the far left Tsipras. It’s kind of ridiculous to elect a Marxist or socialist to fix the problems of socialism.
Thanks.
“It’s kind of ridiculous to elect a Marxist or socialist to fix the problems of socialism” – CraigSummers
Well, there you go, off the beaten path of rationality again. That same, sound logic must hold true for Israel, then, too?
So, how ’bout the Knesset elect a Palestinian?
It’s not about who is elected, it’s about the ideas that are espoused, the governmental structure in place (apartheid, unicameral government, anyone?) and the ability for self-determination of all citizens within all lands everywhere.
Given the history of our species, it’s kind of ridiculous to think that it will work any other way – because, on any scale that is sustainable, it sure hasn’t happened yet.
“The safest course is to do nothing against one’s conscience. With this secret, we can enjoy life and have no fear from death.” – Voltaire
sillyputty
“……It’s not about who is elected, it’s about the ideas that are espoused, the governmental structure in place (apartheid, unicameral government, anyone?) and the ability for self-determination of all citizens within all lands everywhere……”
I agree with that 100%. I cannot wait until everyone on the planet earth joins hands and plays ring around the rosey. Despite your enthusiasm, it’s probably not going to happen for awhile though. There isn’t a minority located in any country that doesn’t have to fight for their rights. Obviously, that includes Israel and every other democracy on the planet. In western liberal democracies, minorities continue to ,make gains, but there are obvious problems with a long ways to go. Besides the usual problems minorities have with the majority population, Israel and the Palestinians have essentially been at war for 100 years. Racism is endemic to both populations. That’s undeniable.
What separated South Africa from other countries was a system of LAWS that segregated the population by race. You have been around for awhile and lived through the apartheid era so you understand quite well exactly how vile that system was. Sometime when you get a chance, you should look them up because Israel has none of the laws which defined the system of apartheid. That alone excludes Israel from the politically motivated use of apartheid to delegitimize the Jewish state. Authors like Ben White and Blumenthal (and a multitude of others) have attempted to delegitimize the Jewish majority state with that designation – and it falls flat. But lying is also a political strategy (not just with the far left).
Arab citizens of Israel have rights – like voting (March 15, 2015):
“……NAZARETH, Israel — Choruses of beeping horns echoed through this Arab city in northern Israel as word spread that an alliance of Arab parties had received 14 seats in the next Parliament, making it the third-largest bloc….Long-divided Arab parties’ forming a coalition was unprecedented; so was the size of their new bloc, offering a good reason for Nazareth and other Arab towns to rejoice…..“This is a great achievement,” said Ahmad Tibi, a veteran Arab politician who was elected to Parliament on Tuesday, speaking at the alliance’s headquarters in Nazareth. Men and women cheered and waved flags bearing the alliance’s slogan, “The Will of the People.”….”
Isn’t “we the people” wonderful, sillyputty (even for the anti American/Israel fringe left)? Eventually, all Arab people will realize that important “slogan”.
Thanks.
The Intercept has published a photo essay of Yemeni victims of Saudi strikes; https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/07/10/yemen-airstrike/
Right. The ‘fun debate’ over the executive branch (secret star-chamber) decree that due-process was now null & void. That, ‘fun debate’!!
And fuk’ your “brilliance”. Individuals should be judged by their ‘character’, and after being inundated with your repetitious ‘hissy-fits’ over these last 5 years, I’ve concluded that you’re a shallow, incorrigible, chump who is sans humility..
Aloha`
[snip]
‘It was first reported in January of last year that the Obama administration had compiled a hit list of American citizens whom the President had ordered assassinated without any due process, and one of those Americans was Anwar al-Awlaki. No effort was made to indict him for any crimes (despite a report last October that the Obama administration was “considering” indicting him). Despite substantial doubt among Yemen experts about whether he even had any operational role in Al Qaeda, no evidence (as opposed to unverified government accusations) was presented of his guilt. When Awlaki’s father sought a court order barring Obama from killing his son, the DOJ argued, among other things, that such decisions were “state secrets” and thus beyond the scrutiny of the courts. He was simply ordered killed by the President: his judge, jury and executioner. When Awlaki’s inclusion on President Obama’s hit list was confirmed, The New York Times noted that “it is extremely rare, if not unprecedented, for an American to be approved for targeted killing….
What’s most striking about this is not that the U.S. Government has seized and exercised exactly the power the Fifth Amendment was designed to bar (“No person shall be deprived of life without due process of law”), and did so in a way that almost certainly violates core First Amendment protections (questions that will now never be decided in a court of law). What’s most amazing is that its citizens will not merely refrain from objecting, but will stand and cheer the U.S. Government’s new power to assassinate their fellow citizens, far from any battlefield, literally without a shred of due process from the U.S. Government. Many will celebrate the strong, decisive, Tough President’s ability to eradicate the life of Anwar al-Awlaki — including many who just so righteously condemned those Republican audience members as so terribly barbaric and crass for cheering Governor Perry’s execution of scores of serial murderers and rapists: criminals who were at least given a trial and appeals and the other trappings of due process before being killed..’ -greenwald
http://www.salon.com/2011/09/30/awlaki_6/
A Cut & Paste JLocke Can Kiss My Lily White Arse Production
Ayup.
A Donger is Being Fed Production ™
There I was, square in the middle of my zen-zone, when the “trash-talk-alarm” app on my phone went off:
– “A Cut & Paste JLocke Can Kiss My Lily White Arse Production”
…naturally, I pressed the “reply in kind button” and voila:
sauve, you lumpish toad-spotted canker-blossom!!!
(My trash talk app is stuck in Shakespeare mode)
Fuck your fixations, buddy. I am calling you out on them. You can decide what you want to do about it, but fixating on one person’s death to the exclusion of tens of thousands is an offense against humanity. Got it? I don’t care how graphic you want to make your language, you don’t give a fuck about humanity. Like I said, Pictet always said there’d be times when justice and caritas were in conflict. Choose justice at such times and you lose your humanity. For a few of you, that choice seems set in stone, sans charite, chump. Where was the trial and due process for those only 800 miles away across the Red Sea? Sociopathic trash.
Nicely balanced article from beginning to end. Not a word about multiple rockets preceeding Operation Protective Edge. Someone who know nothing about the conflict may actually think that all of a sudden a savage nation of Israel “invaded bombed and shelled Gaza” and peace loving Gazans with an evil goal of taking Gazanz’ honey, if the latter even exists beyond the sick imagination of the modern self and everybody hating left wing fascists.
True journalism stopped on a third comma of your first sentense. Shame on you, Greenwald…
A 2-state solution to the Israel-Palestine “conflict” is no longer possible or practicable. That’s not just the view of pro-Palestinian activists such as Ali Abunimah or myself. Naftali Bennett thinks so as well. This appeared in ’13 in the Guardian — and settlements have only increased since then.
——————————————————————————–
A rising star in the Israeli cabinet has declared that the idea of a Palestinian state is dead, in a statement that will dismay the US secretary of state, John Kerry, whose mission to restart peace talks between the two sides is struggling to make headway.
Naftali Bennett, who was appointed Israel’s economics and trade minister following a strong showing in January’s election, told a conference of settlers in Jerusalem that Israel should urgently annex large tracts of the West Bank currently under its control.
Referring to the idea of a Palestinian state, Bennett said: “Never have so many people invested so much energy in something that is hopeless.”
The challenge, he added, was “how do we move forward from here, knowing that a Palestinian state within Israel is not possible … We have to move from solving the problem to living with the problem.” Annexation of “Area C”, the 62% of the West Bank under total Israeli control, should proceed “as quickly as possible”.
Bennett said: “The most important thing in the land of Israel is to build, build, build. It’s important that there will be an Israeli presence everywhere.
“This land has been ours for 3,000 years. There was never a Palestinian state here and we were never occupiers. The house is ours and we are residents here, not the occupiers.”
The trade minister’s comments were swiftly attacked by the Palestinian chief negotiator, Saeb Erekat, who said Israel had “officially declared the death of the two-state solution”.
Statements from Bennett and other senior Israeli politicians and officials in recent days were “matched by policies that [prime minister Binyamin] Netanyahu is pushing on the ground, including aggressive settlement activity, home demolitions, evictions and ID [identity papers] revocations. This is part of Israel’s plan to destroy any possibility for a Palestinian state.”
Two weeks ago, the deputy defence minister, Danny Danon, claimed a majority within the Israeli government staunchly opposed the creation of a Palestinian state. “If there will be a move to promote a two-state solution, you will see forces blocking it within the party and the government,” he said in an interview.
———————————————————————————
So it isn’t going to happen. No, the de facto one state that exists — an apartheid state — must cease existing and two peoples must live together in one, equal state.
And last week, defence minister Moshe Ya’alon described the Arab peace initiative – which Kerry has suggested as a basis for talks between the two sides – as “spin”. Ya’alon said he was not optimistic about progress, “so we must be prepared to manage the conflict”.
Many on both the Palestinian and Israeli sides privately acknowledge that Kerry’s mission is in trouble, although European diplomats still stress the secretary of state’s commitment and energy, and say a positive outcome is possible as well as vital. Kerry cancelled his fifth visit to the region as part of his drive last week, citing scheduling difficulties.
Yeah, so, the final two paragraphs above are not my words. I neglected to cut them out of the Graun piece and they dangle. pffft
There’s a lot of weirdness going on in this article so I’ll start with..Huh? And Huh???:
– “BDS is not about protesting a policy, it’s about delegitimizing Israel using these issues. It’s a politically correct way of attack,” said Hoenlein.
– “Hoenlein said many innocent students get duped into thinking BDS is not a violent movement. “But it does promote violence, and unemployment,” he said.”
http://www.timesofisrael.com/10-years-later-how-bds-became-the-politically-correct-way-to-delegitmize-israel/
BDS…is not about protesting policy?, it’s about deligitimizing Israel using these issues??? You mean like protesting Apartheid in South Africa was really about deligitimizing…apartheid South Africa??
Is that even a point?
…and BDS promotes violence and unemployment? Violence? There’s nothing in the article that explains that assertion at all, an obvious question is…how exactly? Because Israel is going to violently attack the BDS movement?
…and, it promotes unemployment? I can only say to that..Duh!! If I boycott South African tourism, Yeah, no s**t Sherlock, tourist workers are going to get laid off. But it’s my choice where I vacation.
“…….BDS…is not about protesting policy?, it’s about deligitimizing Israel using these issues??? You mean like protesting Apartheid in South Africa was really about deligitimizing…apartheid South Africa??….”
There you go. You are a classic example. You have been totally brainwashed. The BDS campaign is about ending a Jewish majority state – and there is no comparison between apartheid South Africa and Israel. .That is a classic far left wing lie. There were laws based on racial segregation in South Africa. Look them up.
Craig, there is an article at Huffpoo just for you.
Apparently, you can get better if you stop. Just sayin’
BDS all day, every day. Tell your friends.
Desmond Tutu says it’s apartheid. So does the ANC. These are the people who, you know, would know.
We have talked about this in the past. The ANC has not forgotten Israel’s relation with the South African government during apartheid so it’s politically motivated. However, just for your information (Benjamin Pogrund, Guardian May 22, 2015):
“……The Arabs of Israel are full citizens. Crucially, they have the vote and Israeli Arab MPs sit in parliament. An Arab judge sits on the country’s highest court; an Arab is chief surgeon at a leading hospital; an Arab commands a brigade of the Israeli army; others head university departments. Arab and Jewish babies are born in the same delivery rooms, attended by the same doctors and nurses, and mothers recover in adjoining beds. Jews and Arabs travel on the same trains, taxis and – yes – buses. Universities, theatres, cinemas, beaches and restaurants are open to all…..”
Aeyal Gross, Faculty of Law, Tel-Aviv University, writes in Haaretz: “Apartheid in Israel is about more than just segregated buses: What in a different situation would be considered apartheid is tolerated by many because it is ostensibly temporary. But the occupation has long stopped being temporary.”
An excerpt:
————————————–
South Africa used to distinguish between two types of apartheid. The first, called “petty” apartheid, included the separation of public amenities like public benches, bathrooms and public transportation. The second, called “grand” apartheid, included the division of territory and political rights, under which separate areas were allocated in which blacks were forced to live. Residents of these areas were deprived of South African citizenship, with the government claiming that these territories, known as Bantustans, were essentially independent states. While it was easy to photograph petty apartheid, which had blatant expression in signs saying “For Whites Only,” the impact of grand apartheid was no less harsh.
The attempt to make the Palestinians in the territories travel on segregated buses drew such fire that the plan was criticized by the right as well as the left. Segregated buses have great symbolic power, as they remind everyone of the fight put up by Rosa Parks, the American black woman who refused to sit at the back of the bus in 1955. It’s an aspect of apartheid that photographs clearly, even though it is merely one aspect of petty apartheid; the most conspicuous aspect of the segregation that is the basis of the Israeli regime in the territories.
This regime contains components of grand apartheid as well; a regime which determines that Jews are allowed to live here, and Arabs are allowed to live there – and not on an equal footing. It’s a regime based on separation and dispossession of land and water resources, as well as the resources of the rule of law. The law is not enforced equitably in the territories; not only are there separate legal and judicial systems for the Jewish and Arab populations, but law enforcement breaks down when it comes to attacks by Israelis on Palestinians.
Thus, by objecting to petty apartheid, right-wing politicians are persuading themselves, and some of us as well, that they are “enlightened,” while grand apartheid carries on. Israelis and Palestinians are segregated in the territories not just in terms of residential areas and housing, but also in the realms of education, health care and welfare. Israeli law applies there to Israeli citizens and Jewish foreign nationals across the board, including a number of laws meant to apply only to residents of the state. For the purpose of the National Health Insurance Law, for example, a Jew who lives in the territories is considered a state resident eligible for the rights that the law confers, but the same law does not apply to his Palestinian neighbor, who is dependent on a different, weaker health system.
[…]
the occupation has long stopped being temporary; it is indefinite in time, as the settlements themselves demonstrate.
Even after the apartheid bus plan was dropped, this fact hasn’t changed. That’s why we cannot let the debate over the buses hide the fact that grand apartheid, characterized by inherent inequality between Jews and Arabs in all areas of life in the territories, is no less serious in its dimensions, and in many ways more serious, than segregated buses.
“……Well yes — the “only democracy” was very sympathetic to the white Afrikaaner cause, for obvious reasons of similar interests and views about superiority vis-a-vis their respective minorities…..”
You are just making that up Mona. Israel was a young country in need of allies. Israel was also very good friends with Turkey for a long time. Indeed, Israel refused to condemn or recognize the second most studied genocide of the twentieth century on Turkey’s behalf (lots of Muslims in that country, Mona). Interestingly enough, the Armenians after the genocide fought a war with Turkey. They lost half of their country to Turkey which still controls the land today. I wonder what happened to the Armenians living on that land, Mona. I am sure you spend half of your time calling the the people of Turkey racist and genocidal. No doubt, you demand that Turkey return the land.
Not
Thanks.
That’s right, and apartheid South Africa was easy because both countries understood each others, um, needs perfectly.
I certainly will when my country makes me complicit in Turkey’s land theft and apartheid of millions, and when ATPAC & associated American lobby groups for the cause of Turkey have purchased my government.
Your whataboutery (which is a logical fallacy) always fails, Craig, But like a weeble wobble, you just come right back up with it, over and over again.
This thread is stale. Bye.
No Mona. It doesn’t fail. It just points out how hypocritical you are – and it points out how hypocritical this site is. It is only a what-a-boutery because you are unwilling to acknowledge you are far more anti Israel than pro Palestinian.
Yeah! Help is on the way!! BDS thinks they are “big man on campus”? Wait till those pesky college kids meet “billionaire on campus” !!!
– “Billionaire Sheldon Adelson’s new campus operation to defend Israel has picked David Brog, the head of the largest Christian Zionist organization, as its first leader.
Brog, executive director of Christians United for Israel, will head the Campus Maccabees, a new multi-million dollar group funded by Adelson and fellow billionaire Haim Saban. The new organization’s mission will be to fight efforts on college campuses to promote the movement to boycott, divest from or sanction Israel.
…Brog, who is Jewish, has rarely spoken out on controversial issues relating to Israel and has focused much of his public work on attempts to refute claims regarding evangelical Christians and to advocate for accepting Christian Zionist support for Israel despite clear differences in social values between evangelical leaders such as Hagee and the organizational leadership of the American Jewish community.
…Brog is married to an Israeli-American and is a cousin of former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak.
His main task as the Campus Maccabees’ first executive director will be to shape the organization’s structure as a funding arm for existing and new pro-Israel campus initiatives. “
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/1.665101
https://twitter.com/dancohen3000/status/619325610398121984
great interview, will definitely read the book. however, a whole portion on how max blumenthal took the path he did in life was repeated near the end, verbatim. how did that happen? I can’t be absolutely sure, but glenn had just asked max what the reasons for the israeli attacks on gaza are and then the tape veered off into a verbatim repeat of why max took the path in life he did, the adelson funded trip to israel, the second infitada, etc., etc.
I think we’ve found the next US supreme court judge:
– “It’s a constitutionally horrific situation. The order of incarceration reads like a rendition order. They’re not allowed contact with one another, with their mother, with their attorney. The judge ordered that the youngest one – the daughter, a nine-year-old girl, is not allowed to use the bathroom in privacy until she’s 18.” If that sounds heartbreaking, it’s only moreso when you learn particulars about the children.
http://observer.com/2015/07/lawyer-for-tsimhonis-children-speaks-out-against-ludicrous-jailing-of-kids/
Well, it’s, one, plausible explanation:
In comments – Meena West – “I honestly cannot believe I’m reading this, I re-read this story several times just to make sure this was reality. Is the psychotic judge sleeping with the father or something? Because that’s the only plausible explanation I could think of for this.”
http://observer.com/2015/07/exclusive-interview-dad-whose-kids-were-locked-up-for-not-having-lunch-with-him/
It seems the dad’s story, and the PR firm that arranged his interview, didn’t go over well with Observer readers.
This is funny, 5WPR has a page on their website called: “5 ways NOT to handle negative press”
Maybe they should add a page called:
– “why a parent’s priority should be their kids, and not their PR”
and Lisa Gorcyca could add one:
– “how to make a custody battle much much worse”
Her husband is a piece of work too
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2015/07/09/michigan-judge-bullies-children-in-open-court-for-refusing-to-see-their-dad/
“…..So, the development of the al-Qassam brigades is one of the untold stories of this war. If we look at the casualty total of Israeli citizens, we see that about 72 Israeli citizens died. Sixty-seven of them were combat soldiers, which is evidence that soldiers and not civilians were targeted…..”
This is one of the most interesting aspects of Protective Edge. It’s clear that this was well planned in advance by Hamas leadership for PR purposes. Hamas leadership didn’t suddenly read the Geneva Conventions. After twenty-five years of targeting Israeli civilians, there was no sudden moral change. Hamas applauded the kidnapping of the Israeli teens and never condemned their murder. The war was also well planned with dozens of undetected cemented tunnels leading into Israel which took years to prepare. Hamas understood full well that another war with the IDF was imminent – and they had prepared well for the conflict. Their soldiers were well instructed to not shoot civilian Jews for PR purposes. The only ones with no instructions, no bomb shelters and most importantly – nowhere to hide – were ordinary Gazans – for PR purposes.
Craig, you are obscenely suggesting that Hamas somehow had control over the heinous carnage that Israel inflicted in Protective Edge, and you sputter about PR concerns as if these have any bearing on the situation for the devastated, murdered and maimed Gazans.
Protective Edge was part of a genocidal policy to immiserate and slaughter — a policy purposely adopted by Israel. As Max Blumenthal reports, my emphasis:
That’s what the plan is, Craig. Israel will continue to “kill and kill and kill” in Gaza. I believe the Geneva Conventions must have something to say about that?
“……Craig, you are obscenely suggesting that Hamas somehow had control over the heinous carnage that Israel inflicted in Protective Edge…..”
Hamas had two precedents to predict the Israeli response – Operation Cast Lead and the war in Lebanon. And you think that Protective Edge surprised them? That’s ridiculous.
Oh Craig, of course not. Gazans can read, and they know what Dov Weissglass and Arnon Sofer have conceded the genocidal plan is. Hell, Gazans are living it (or dying from it, as it were).
“…….they know what Dov Weissglass and Arnon Sofer have conceded the genocidal plan is. Hell, Gazans are living it (or dying from it, as it were)……”
You have a bit of a loose definition of genocide Mona, or the Israelis are just really poor at math. The Palestinians are increasing in population. According to Almonitor:
“…….Between 2000 and 2013, the number of Gazans increased by more than 687,000 people.” A UNRWA report published in 2012 said that by 2020 Gaza’s population will reach 2.1 million, and pointed out that basic infrastructure such as electricity, water, sanitation and social services cannot keep up with the needs of the growing population…..”
Craig, you are full of shit.
Denying an entire population adequate “electricity, water, sanitation” is the way in which genocide is achieved.
Really, lay of the booze.
Hmm. I’d say this fits it: “So, if we want to remain alive, we will have to kill and kill and kill. All day, every day.”
That’s the aspiration and what Israel’s policies are designed to achieve — certainly they are *NOT* designed to effect the 2-state solution that is no longer feasible.
@Ondelette
I freely, though not proudly, admit to caring more about dead Palestinians than dead Africans. Because I’m a Jew. It is “my” people who visit these atrocities upon the defenseless. The butchers of Gaza march under the same flag that flies over my synagogue, the same flag my children have joyously waved. I feel responsible. This unpleasant feeling is exacerbated by my status as an American taxpayer. I have, in a fairly literal way, helped pay for the bombs blowing up Gazan babies. So I truly get where Mona is coming from when she speaks of American complicity in Israel’s crimes as a call to action for Americans who rightly despise those crimes.
But with that said, I would also like to say for the record that I think you’re brilliant and should not change.
Tip o’ the hat to you, Gator90, though I rarely wear one. You frequently lend all of us grace.
Ondeletter knows his shit* … plus he’s a fan of Tony Rice, so he can’t be all bad https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwL-qOKcC4E
*Eg; I did not know, until ondelette and ‘barncat’ (h/t) pointed it out to me in this very thread, the complicity of U.S. involvement in the creation of South Sudan, circa 2011, nor the extent of recent atrocities committed there by the ‘worlds newest nation’. It’s more than enough to shock Glenn’s conscience … too!
>”Because I’m a Jew. It is “my” people who visit these atrocities upon the defenseless.”
I doubt that. If ‘those’ are your people, I wouldn’t claim them gator! No, ‘them’ people are more likely close kin to the Bush, Cheney & Obama tribe … really, a pack of ravenous wolves dressed in sheep clothing flying the banner of our nations and living vicariously off the hard-won good name of our forefathers.
*So, I know how you feel … as the Most American you know, it even hurts my ‘tribe’ to pay President Bush a $100k speaking fee (plus, private jet airfare) to address a charity for wounded veterans of the Iraq/Afghanistan wars, especially while some ‘wounded warrior’ charities run seemingly endless TV ads for donations ~ tugging on the heart strings of the rank and file!
I live by the code of The Hills gator and, afaict, the real and true American/Jewish Tribe (you, Glenn, Max and many others of your tribe I have known, etc.) do not seek ‘to stifle the flame of a sane and intelligent patriotism in men’s hearts’ …
*Eg; I did not know, until ondelette and ‘barncat’ (h/t) pointed it out to me in this very thread, the complicity of U.S. involvement in the creation of South Sudan, circa 2011, nor the extent of recent atrocities committed there by the ‘worlds newest nation’.
Neither did I and I see value in continuing my education in these matters, so I am indebted for that information.
Yes, to the rest of your comment as well.
Aside: Brother Bill sent me a link to an article about biking in them thar hills down yonder. All I need is for Fred to decide he needs one more activity while I’m trying to wear out the hammock. ;-}
Gazooks! … is that knuckleheaded uni-brow pestering you again!?
*He probably dosent even remember how to ride a bicycle … :)
p.s. Upside to the biking: Newest 4-leggedy child won’t fit in a basket, so I still get to hold down the hammock should Fred decide to start pedaling. ;-}
p.p.s. I might have to invest in some cloggin’ shoes so we can go dancing again. The locals seemed a bit suspicious of my Vibram toe shoes, though they were respectful of my efforts at participating during the Electric Slide (even if my version of it contained little resembling their amazing clogging techniques). That was, BTW, a blast. Really enjoyed it. :-)
Yes … the ‘locals’ have mentioned your ‘Vibram toe shoes! Actually.
‘chase that rabbit
chase that squirrel
chase Pedinska around the world.
Yes … the ‘locals’ have mentioned your ‘Vibram toe shoes! Actually.
I prefer being remembered for my dancing skills, but if that’s not possible then my shoes will do. It’s nice to be remembered. :-)
No Bah, they are indeed my people. I can condemn them, but I can’t disown them.
Gator, son-brother (an Appalachian term of endearment.), some of the more nastier ones (eg. like the ones responsible for the atrocities in Gaza last year) … ain’t even the same species.
*I only regret comparing them to ‘wolves’ … who must eat to survive.
I think you can, Gator. You belong to the biggest tribe there is; human.
Bah is right. Those perpetrating the slaughter ain’t us.
This is entirely up to Gator. if he says he can’t disown his fellow Jews, that is his decision, and I respect.
I’ve been an atheist for about 35 years, but I still consider myself a cultural Irish-American Catholic. As an atheist I went to the Notre Dame law school in part for that reason; I know and understand these people.
For millennia non-Jews have tormented and persecuted Jews, culminating in the Holocaust when a severe and all-too-successful attempt to extinguish them as a people was made. I can well understand why a Jew isn’t going to simply cease feeling an affiliation with his tribe since others haven’t been all that willing to see them as anything else. To some degree, it is wise of them to “stick together.” (Just not along the path of Zionism.)
That’s not what the word “tribe” means. Tribes are exclusive, and that’s ok. Gator put it to you perfectly below:
That will work just fine.
@Mona
And the Hasbara have succeeded.
I believe it is quite possible Jewish exceptionalism has succeeded in creating much of the backlash the Jews have experienced over the years, not to say anything of the ultra misogynistic behavior of the wealthiest and most powerful.
let’s not get into anything that’ll get Barncat’s BP up.
If I think Gator can separate himself from the butchers in the IDF then I think that. There are some brave members of the IDF who have spoken out. There are members who fire their weapons in the air or against a wall as opposed to civilian bodies; there were Marines who refused to kill at My Lai. Those are people who recognize fellow human beings and I see Gator as belonging to that group.
Be careful, bahhumingbug, Nick Kristof was in a Nuer village doing the interviews, had he been in a Dinka village, he could have collected very similar horror stories about the rebels. The conflict in South Sudan has a huge ethnic component, originated and fed by Salva Kiir and Riek Machar the two leaders who started it. Not only that, what Kiir and Machar say about each other is mostly true: Kiir was trying to turn the presidency into a strongman government, and Machar did organize people to oust him. “The People” mostly wish they would have gotten a room instead of plunging the country into total chaos. But if it hadn’t have been them, it would have been something else. There are way too many weapons there. An AK-47 goes for $30 US on the black market in Africa.
BTW, just in case you thought it wasn’t complex, Sudan (the North) supplies weapons to Hamas, and that has on occasion caused Israel to materially support the South (or just out and out bomb Khartoum). Because of that support, there are other Middle East countries that from time to time have backed marauding groups in Uganda to the south, and so on and so forth. The Misseriya who precipitated the border disputes over Abeyei between North and South are the same Arab/Baggara tribe from which al Bashir recruits the Janjaweed you’ve heard about in Darfur, whom al Bashir has renamed the Rapid Support Forces or RSF. The border dispute is about territory, freedom, oil, and voting, but it originally broke out over grazing cattle.
And the only reason the Sudan was ever one country is because before the British took over there was a jihadi named Mohammad Ahmad ‘abd Allah al Mahdi who formed a caliphate there and conquered the south for the first time from the north in the mid 1880s. Omar al Bashir took over originally by deposing the democratically elected Sadiq al Mahdi, Mohammad Ahmad’s great grandson, who is the uncle of the guy who played Dr. Bashir in Star Trek Deep Space Nine. And I really do mean jihadi and caliphate. As Caliph of Mahdist Sudan, he replaced the hajj as a pillar of Islam with jihad. The British got involved from the beginning because they were taking over Egypt from the Turks, and Mohammad Ahmad had the head of the commander of the British forces delivered to his tent. Of course, because it was unified when the British took over, the British believed it had been unified since the dawn of time. The British believe a country has always been the way it looks the day they first see it. The Caliph of Sokoto (in Nigeria) at the time was so entrhalled that he left his sultanate (after being defeated by the British) with 40,000 followers to go on a hijra join the Mahdi, and they got to Sudan in time to become poorly paid and badly treated workers in the British cotton schemes. Their descendants now live just to the southwest of the Beni Amir and Beja, who are the people who traffic Eritrean refugees into the Sinai desert to be caged and harvested for black market transplant organs.
That’s a brief version of it.
You have a choice of two histories on the Mahdi, that told in the region, and the one written about by a young soldier named Winston Churchill.
Oh, and somebody (everybody and their brother are disclaiming it) delivered $38 Million in weapons from China into the South Sudan war, most likely the North. China’s version of it was something like, “I know noth-think!” in Chinese, and Uganda invaded from the south with “peacekeeping troops” which promptly took sides, probably sensing that being allied to South Sudanese oil might be more lucrative than siphoning conflict minerals out of Congo.
Thanks @Gator90, and yes I like Tony Rice, and toe shoes.
It really is amazing that average American Jew, (who are by a wide margin decent, honorable, humanitarian people) is not revolted by what Israel is doing to the Palestinian people in Gaza and the West Bank. How does one engage in the level of self-deception required to accept these atrocities. Max Blumenthal has been able to overcome this self-deception. Let’s more will be able to wake up to reality and change things!
Why? Why don’t any of you care? I work in this stuff, I am well aware of so–called compassion fatigue, I’m well aware that confronting the enormity of human suffering on this planet right now is overwhelming, but to fixate constantly on one guy killed by a drone, or on one conflict to the exclusion of all others, what’s the point? — ondelette
I acknowledge that there has been a dearth of coverage of the conficts/suffering you note in your comments – here and elsewhere – but the bolded bit above is an oversimplification/misrepresentation of both the oeuvre produced by Greenwald as well as the contributions of the other writers and their topics here at TI.
Setting that aside, I worked in the field of HIV research for over 20 years, to the exclusion of all other diseases except for particularly virulent co-morbidities in the HIV+ population such as TB and hepatitis. Progress in any human endeavor, especially (it seems to me) those involving long-running conflict, takes sustained effort, expertise and resources, something I know you’re aware of from your past efforts to further awareness on the issue of torture and on behalf of Aafia Siddiqui.
People tend to focus their talents on those areas where they think they have a chance to make a difference but even then, once you have found what you think is your niche of contribution, it takes years to gain the appropriate expertise and knowledge to make significant inroads. I chose to devote a long period of my life to HIV, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t care about Ebola, or MERS, or other diseases that are killing people all over the world. But, were I to start working on any of those other fields right now, today, even with all my past education and experience, it would take me significant time to build up the expertise needed to be effective to any degree. Also, unless I am totally misremembering – please correct me if I am because it is not my intent to misrepresent you here – I recall a number of occasions where you severely called Greenwald to task for inaccuracies you perceived in articles in which you had expertise. So why do you castigate him for concentrating his efforts in those areas where his writing has a better chance of making an impact? Your own words below tell the tale of how much effort must be exerted just to stay current let alone educate/inform others:
I read as many of the articles on the front page of ReliefWeb as I can, every day. When they’re in French, I practice my French on them, too. When I get the time, I research the history of them, or the techniques used. I do that because I’m required to be informed on those issues and those countries, which actually do frequently include the Palestinians, too. When necessary, I do more serious data collection. Pictet once said that justice and caritas will always eventually clash. So be it.
The notion that some here have that I would do all that because of a personal grievance against Glenn Greenwald is just inane.
I don’t think people here think you do all that work keeping up-to-date on these conflicts because of a grievance against Greenwald, I think they think you have said grievance because his threads seem to be where you most consistently bring your concerns. I don’t have time to keep up with every comment thread here, nor do I know if you have approached Editor in Chief Betsy Reed regarding more/better coverage of Africa – which I also think should receive more reporting everywhere, not just at First Look/The Intercept – or if you’ve reached out to the folks at Reported.ly who are the First Look group doing the most widespread world coverage (albeit through social media which isn’t as in-depth as what is needed), so if you are active at pursuing those avenues then I apologize for my own misperceptions of the intent of your posts.
I have always believed that your concern for these issues is integral to your being, ondelette, and that is to your immense credit. There is no doubt in my mind of that. And you are correct that these topics have been covered poorly, if at all, and I appreciate your efforts here to raise awareness because I have benefited from them. But it is not difficult to perceive this as being personal on your part when looking at just the tiny slice of commentary that you consistently produce under Greenwald’s articles, just as it would be easy to accuse others here of not caring about African or dark-skinned deaths if all you knew about them was what they wrote in one tiny slice of the internet.
Pace, ondelette.
– “I have always believed that your concern for these issues is integral to your being, ondelette, and that is to your immense credit.”
Hmm yes I kind of skimmed over that long back and forth between ondelette and Mona and all.
I don’t know what drives ondelettes. Myself I find that the animosity, or faux animosity, is kind of fun, but I also find it boring. I try not to fall into that trap. I often fail. But I really get more out of testing ideas, opinions against others.
And ondelette comes across to me as someone who gives their genuine opinion, as opposed to the cut and pasted, sophistry that I could do without.
And ondelette comes across to me as someone who gives their genuine opinion, as opposed to the cut and pasted, sophistry that I could do without.
Yes.
I will take your comments to heart, Pedinska, and I didn’t know about the requesting to Betsy Reed, I may take it up.
Yesterday was the anniversary of the start of the Gaza war, Glenn’s reason for the article. Today is the anniversary of the creation of South Sudan. The article here on the HackerTeam accused South Sudan of trading in spyware up until it was finally corrected this morning. I had started my complaining about the attitude here vis-a-vis South Sudan on that thread, by yesterday I’d even written email to its authors. I originally wanted to know what the details were so I could relay them to someone. I really have gotten the feeling people don’t care about that country. Baldie McEagle said so on a previous thread, then the HackerTeam piece did the equivalent of confusing China and Japan during World War II and not really caring for 2 days. Full disclosure, pointing out that people don’t care about something not written about is what usually gets me kicked off of web sites, not any kind of abuse. I do understand what you wrote about expertise, but all my expertise about the Sudan is acquired because of a perceived need for someone to know these things. Yes I did outline that I go to some trouble to learn these things. Yes, it’s also true that most of my days are spent working through mathematics to get to other mathematics.
It’s really really true that nobody cares this time, it isn’t just me or my choice of sites to bring my issues to. People dying because of being ignored.
You work on HIV, you’re aware of NPO/NGO funding targets and what happens if they’re missed. Funding for the 3.5 million people at risk in the South Sudan crisis is at 13%. I’ve seen food rationing start in the Sahel or in Syria when funding drops below 30%, as it is now. I don’t need personal feelings to cause me to get angry at commenters here. All the people of South Sudan need is for people to talk about it, no matter what they say, that would be better than what exists now. I’ve been lurking on this site off and on for some months now. I’m very sorry Pedinska if I’m offending but if just one percent of the hot air expended over Gaza here was expended over Bor and Malakal ever, a whole lot of people probably wouldn’t be facing death right now. There are times when bearing witness is more than enough. And at such times, out of sight out of mind is an offense against humanity. It doesn’t take a backlog of built up expertise to just call attention to human beings.
You libeled Kevin Gostolza. But even if your assessment of why you get banned at various sites is accurate, why don’t you reflect on what that means? Either various well-thought-of sites are uniquely targeting you for no good reason, or there is something in your online behavior that is unacceptable to reasonable people. Which of these do you think is more likely?
Mona
“……why don’t you reflect on what that means? Either various well-thought-of sites are uniquely targeting you for no good reason, or there is something in your online behavior that is unacceptable to reasonable people…….”
Ha! That is absurdly funny. You teaching anyone about online behavior is probably worse than electing a Marxist to clear the national debt. Ondelette brings up good points….actually they are the common criticisms of Greenwald. The Thirty-two (32) journalists at the Intercept do a really piss poor job of covering the news and events around the world simply because they don’t care. Of course, he is wonderful at providing anti-American commentary – maybe the best. That is his specialty. How much is Omidyar required to spend before there is an article about the civilians killed in Ukraine by the Russians fighting the good fight against the fascists? Is it going to cost Omidyar another million to get one article about Syria and the murder of Muslims by Assad? Doesn’t Greenwald perpetually talk about our racist war against Muslims?
Greenwald in his own words:
“…..Every war – particularly protracted ones like the “War on Terror” – demands sustained dehumanization campaigns……..applied almost exclusively to Muslims…..It is worse than that: it is based on the implicit, and sometimes overtly stated, premise that Muslims generally, even those guilty of nothing, deserve what the US does to them……”
Yet he gives a free pass to those who murder Muslims daily. Almost exactly like your war on Zionists Mona. You hate and condemn all Zionists (Jews).
“…..When I claim Zionists are fascists, I am not calling names or waxing hyperbolic. I mean it literally, as a reasonably well educated person would understand the term…..”
“…..Israel is and always has been deeply racist, and Zionists still cling to anti-black themes. See, e.g. this cached post the Times of Israel just took down, written by a Seattle-based American Zionist activist. His racism on the topic of Ferguson is jaw-dropping, but entirely of a piece with Zionist racism igeneral….”
Of course, the real dehumanization campaign is carried out by Muslims seeking domination over other Muslims – like ISIS, Boko Haram and al Qaeda (etc.). Unfortunately, it doesn’t fit the “it’s our fault” narrative of extremist on the left so those Muslims are forgotten or ignored.
Thirty-two (32) journalists, but none dedicated to any conflict which doesn’t involve the US. You gotta love the “humanitarian” fringe left – picking which Muslims and which children are worth a story (and a picture) at the Intercept.
Nah. I’ve been banned at precisely one web site in my 22 years online — and that’s the Guardian. But huge numbers of reasonable people have been banned there, so that indicates nothing. And actually, I was asked to be a moderator in two CompuServe fora back in the day. (But I quit in disgust with the absurdly rigid standards we were expected to enforce.)
You may be at the wrong site — I think you want RedState, or PowerLine.
Yes Craig. We know. You’ve said this several hundred times now.
And all my quotes you recited? I stand be each and every word.
The part where you suggest that you are reasonably well educated, Mona? Remember, it is DOCTOR David Duke:
“…..In September 2005, Duke received a Candidate of Sciences degree in history from the Ukrainian Interregional Academy of Personnel Management (MAUP).[97] On his website, Duke now refers to himself as “Dr. David Duke PhD.”…..His doctoral thesis was titled “Zionism as a Form of Ethnic Supremacism.”[97]…..”
Right up your alley Mona?
And right up Desmond Tutu’s alley as well:
Israel has made a 2-state solution impossible, because it is ethno-religious supremacist state predicated on the blood-and-soil claims to land that belongs to others; almost all land that could have been a Palestinian state is overrun by illegal Zionist settlements. So Israel has colonized its way into a de facto one-state, apartheid state.
Israel is as racist a state as was apartheid South Africa. So says Desmond Tutu.
Mona
“…..Israel has made a 2-state solution impossible, because it is ethno-religious supremacist state predicated on the blood-and-soil claims to land that belongs to others; almost all land that could have been a Palestinian state is overrun by illegal Zionist settlements……”
It is interesting that you refer to Israel essentially as a white supremacist state while you support white supremacist positions on Jews and Zionism. Occasionally, you need to look at yourself in the mirror.
You need to get the details correct Mona. You are so driven by hate of Zionists (Jews) that it overwhelms your ability to synthesize the correct information from your narrative – which is opposition to a Jewish state under any circumstance. David Wearing explains in an article at the Guardian what you really don’t want to hear – a two state solution is still viable (“A Two State Solution is the Most Practical Route for Israel and Palestine”). The article was written in 2012. Wearing is your typical anti western extremist (I.e., he could work for the Intercept except his hatred of Israel would need to be ratcheted up a bit). According to the article, Chomsky and Finkelstein still support a two state solution (“…..People such as Norman Finkelstein and Noam Chomsky continue to advocate the establishment of two states along the 1967 borders “subject to very minor and mutual adjustments”…..”). That is also what was written in the Oslo Accords.
According to Wearing:
“……..Obstacles to the decolonisation of the Palestinian territories are certainly real, but should not be overstated. The settlements themselves take up very little space. It is the settlement blocs which dissect Palestinian territory, seize key natural resources and render unviable an independent state on the land that remains. Palestinian negotiators have produced detailed maps showing how, with those obstacles largely removed, an exchange of land equivalent to 1.9% of the West Bank could leave 63% of Israeli colonists in situ, and the Palestinians with a contiguous, viable state……”
But a two state solution would not satisfy your obsessive hate (I don’t care what you used to support). Wearing also indicates that a two state solution now will eventually lead to a bi-national state in the future (as does Chomsky). I also believe that this is a possibility, but a long time into the future.
As always Mona, it’s a pleasure.
Craig, and pace Mr. Wearing, Israel has adopted policies to ensure that a 2-state solution is impossible and impracticable. Palestinian-American Ali Abunimah:
Now, if you don’t want to accept Abunimah’s assessment, how about some senior Israeli officials and advisers as reported by Blumenthal:
These foul Zionists are purposely setting Gaza in “formaldehyde” to create a “human catastrophe” as they continue merrily along for three more years since Weaverman wrote to establish illegal settlements. And they intend to “kill and kill and kill, all day, every day” in Gaza.
Well, they have their 1-state solution — an apartheid state in which Zionists make several million Palestinians suffer in an intolerable apartheid state, and where Zionists intend to regularly “kill and kill and kill.” Decent people are going to pressure Israel until that 1 state ends the torturous apartheid conditions — the “formaldehyde” and “kill and kill and kill” is not going to be tolerated.
“…..And they intend to “kill and kill and kill, all day, every day” in Gaza….”
Well Mona, they aren’t very good at it. The two wars – Cast Lead and Protective Edge – resulted in about 3500 Palestinian deaths. Compare that to Russia in Chechnya in the 90s or even Syria today – or Iraq and Afghanistan. What is Israel doing wrong? In addition, the Palestinians chose to go to war in 2000 with the start of the second Intifada. The Intifada is always ignored by the left because it does not fit the narrative of Israel the aggressor. About 4500 Palestinians died as well as 1000 Israelis. There was no moral justification for the decision by Arafat to go to war including the “resistance”. You reap what you sew Mona.
“…..Thus, the Palestinian response has to be, “Fine, it’s a single state, but it’s not going to be an apartheid state; it’s going to be a state based on modern universal principles.”….”
Simply BS, Mona. This is what the far left is advocating in collusion with right wing Palestinians. The two state solution is difficult for any Palestinian leader (like Arafat) because they are viewed as throwing the refugees and their descendants of the 1948 war under the bus. Remember that the Israelis accepted the two state solution in 1948 while the Palestinians rejected it until the Oslo Accords although the writing was on the wall well before that.
I am in agreement with the liberal left that Israel will need to make concessions for a two state solution to work. The single state solution is never going to happen (until Israel votes for it to happen). As Wearing said, the actual settlements only take up a relatively small part of the West Bank. Israel needs to get rid of Netanyahu for his idiotic comments and the Palestinians need to get rid of Hamas. Those are two good first steps.
Oh, they are very good at killing and killing and killing the Palestinians. They do it every day, and they have locked up Gazans in a cauldron of pure misery.
Israel has no plans to pursue a 2-state solution, which is why the illegal settlements continue with encouragement from Netanyahu. Have you seen a map of what’s left of Gaza and the WB as of today, for a Palestinian state, Craig? It’s a joke.
No, Israel has established a de facto one state, an apartheid state in which Gazans are locked up in a hellish prison by design, a prison in which they will be subjected to frequent bombardment and slaughter — also by Israel’s specific desire and design.
The world is demanding an end to the apartheid state and the only remaining route for that to end is a one-state, non-apartheid state.
No, Mona, I didn’t. I already explained what happened with Kevin Gosztola, in great detail on The Guardian for you, and you managed to get the entire conversation deleted. How come you remember only some things and not others? Like that I’m not kicked off of FDL I left because I saw Jane doxx somebody, and I need to protect my pseudonymity? Is it that you knew that and wanted to libel me, or you just selectively remember only insults?
Bullshit Ondellette. I read Jane’s smackdown of you, and all the other readers/commenters there who were sick and tired of your antics. I already said I can’t recall whether you were deleted or what the issue was, but it made you whine…. AND WHINE AND WHINE. And write to everyone at FDL, and post what they said, and what you thought about that, and etc. ad nauseum.
God, it was such bullshit, typical Ondelette bullshit. You drive them all crazy over there with your annoying crap, as you also always have done to us in Glenn’s space.
Now, you might want to think about why that is. But I know you won’t.
You’re now the one libeling Mona, I still have an account at FDL. You misunderstood what was going on during “Jane’s smackdown” because you didn’t really go there to read what was going on, you went there, as usual for you, to dig dirt on somebody you didn’t like.
Everybody’s got their own internet personality, except here where everybody has that plus Mona’s categorization and censorial baggage. You’re the biggest threat to civil discussion and informed discourse on this site. Not me, not Craig, not Stan not anyone else. You.
I had started my complaining about the attitude here vis-a-vis South Sudan on that thread, by yesterday I’d even written email to its authors.
Just looked through the article/thread, Hacking Team Emails Expose Proposed Death Squad Deal, Secret U.K. Sales Push and Much More. I don’t see any of that discussion nor notification of a correction to the article. Are you referencing this paragraph?:
Did it initially read South Sudan? If so, any correction should have been noted and discussion BTL wrt an error should not have been removed, imo.
I’m very sorry Pedinska if I’m offending but if just one percent of the hot air expended over Gaza here was expended over Bor and Malakal ever, a whole lot of people probably wouldn’t be facing death right now. There are times when bearing witness is more than enough.
I hear what you’re saying and I am not offended. I hope that you approach Betsy and that she will push to get coverage of these issues. My career switch to HIV was compelled in large part because of the Reagan administration’s refusal to acknowledge the needs of a population. Hell, in many ways to even acknowledge that they existed. I know what bearing witness can do and I would like to see that happen for as many people as need it.
It doesn’t take a backlog of built up expertise to just call attention to human beings.
Perhaps not, but as you noted wrt the Hacker Team article – correctly, imo – it takes some expertise to convey the story correctly:
I had started my complaining about the attitude here vis-a-vis South Sudan on that thread, by yesterday I’d even written email to its authors. […] the HackerTeam piece did the equivalent of confusing China and Japan during World War II and not really caring for 2 days.
I agree that corrections should be made as soon as possible, but I also know how long it can take to even get to all my emails, let alone check details to ensure that the information supplied is accurate – because who needs to make multiple corrections? – and then get it accomplished. I really have no idea how much time is a reasonable expectation for that to happen, and it could very well be that two days is excessive. But I will say that for me, it was much easier to respond to requests in my work when the person corresponding with me wasn’t automatically assuming that any errors of omission were a result of intent as opposed to oversights due to other, also important, issues commanding my attention. As you noted, these things are overwhelming and sometimes even people of good intent can err.
Thanks for the discussion and for any further information you can add to threads on these issues.
Balanced and insightful, Pedinska. Ondelette is extraordinarily knowledgeable on issues pertaining to international human rights and I also do not doubt his sincerity and dedication to that field. Why he has to use that expertise and concern as a sword at sites where other decent-minded individuals congregate I don’t know, but I do know that he does wield it as a sword.
Indicting honest reporters of good will, whether Glenn Greenwald or Kevin Gosztola, makes no sense and is entirely counter-productive to what Ondelette says he wants to see happen in the world.
Ondelette: I suggest you take Pedinska’s advice and approach Betsy Reed regarding those topics you feel merit greater attention at this venue. For there is simply no value — and some annoyance — in haranguing people about your priorities and concerns here in Glenn’s comments.
Does everyone’s comment that has anything to do with me always need your filtering?
I posed the accusation to your fellow censor troll because Kitt seemed to need an accusation. And, as I said, because neither comments nor emails were getting satisfaction on the HackerTeam column, which has since been corrected. I had a personal stake in what those authors said about a particular country, and needed to get an answer one way or the other. I actually do think about what I post Mona. I suggest you take my advice and do the same.
As for what has value, before you two pounced, I had written precisely one line of comment. If the only responses had been about it’s subject, like rrheard and Gator90 replied, everything would have stayed manifestly on topic. It was you and Kitt who derailed it, not me. You’re a troll, Mona. You’ve lost the ability to comment anymore, more than half of what you’ve been posting on Greenwald columns over the last several months has been invective and ad hominem against people you don’t like, and not real discussion of the issues. Why would anyone take your advice?
“In a soldier’s stance I aimed my hand at the mongrel dogs who teach…” You’ve become the troll you sought to eliminate.
I replied yesterday to your long address/comment to me; or at least you decided you were addressing it at me. I don’t know, as I said in my reply I didn’t read it all. I read enough to see that it was of little interest to me. If you’d care to read it, scroll down.
“This attack will prove to be historically important for how the world regards Israel . . .”
This attack? If the world hasn’t opened its eyes by now after years of Israeli crimes against humanity, it never will! What about Operation Lead Cast? What about the King David Hotel attack? The USS Liberty attack? The slaughter and terrorizing of Palestinians by Israeli commandos after the formation of Israel? And what about the Israeli fingerprints ALL OVER 911? Israel could take a crap on the street in front of the White House and the media will spin it into something “positive” for Israel!
Last year’s attack profoundly altered my own view of Israel. Indeed, it caused me to hate what I once loved. I think I am far from being the only person to be powerfully affected by it.
Also too…. 9/11? Really? Dude.
Yes, I thought that connection sounded crazy too. Israel and 911? Then I heard about the five dancing Israelis, and the Israeli art students that were really Mossad agents. See this video with Amy Goodman:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=In5HCWTshUo
The dancing Israelis were pulled back to to Israel after they were questioned here, by the Israeli government. They went back to Israel and on an Israeli talk show said that they were in New York to film the towers come down, to document it. How could they have known it was going to happen?
US media ignored the story. I guess it seemed too crazy?
Yes and no. Brit Hume and Carl Cameron did a four-part Fox series on it, but Fox pulled it from their web site and archives shortly thereafter. Nothing ever disappears from the Internet of course, so it’s still available elsewhere. As are transcripts.
The most important point for me was that Mossad knew specifics about the 9/11 plot in advance but wouldn’t share them with the U.S. for fear of exposing the extent of their spy operations in and on the U.S.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbkQddEDPs0
The towers I & II were designed to withstand the impact of a 747, a plane bigger than the 757.
Look at the flight path to impact, it is a computer generated curve. No human, let alone the student trainees, could pull that off but drone technology could.
There is only one way the Israelis ‘knew’ the towers were coming down; an airliner is incapable of bringing down those buildings. Simple high school level physics is all that is necessary to describe the collapse of the towers, including Tower 7.
With Marvin Bush as head of security for the towers, the months required to mine the buildings was readily available. There is no other scientific explanation for the collapses.
A PNAC patriot act endless war to cauldronize the ME for Israel to clean up in a century production (h/t suave)
FOX – Some believe – “There are Israeli agents involved in spying on the US”
Democracy Now – The Israeli agents were celebrating because – “It would bring sympathy for Israel’s agenda in the Middle East”
Yeah, I think it’s well documented that the Israelis have spies in America, around the world, have good penetration of the US government (and of course now we know through Snowden that the NSA shares “raw” intelligence with the Israelis). They would be interested in what the hijackers were up to, were they planning attacks against Israel?, yada yada yada..
…and as for celebrating, I think there are books written about how the Bush government had advance warning of an attack (President’s Daily Brief), and was happy to use the event to launch the Iraq war (see Richard Alan Clarke). A war that pleased the Israeli government….as much as 9/11 apparently pleased those particular Mossad agents.
– “Last year’s attack profoundly altered my own view of Israel.”
you should comment more Gator, and I say that not because I often agree with you, but because I get a lot out of your comments, as many people do, I suppose.
I was trying to remember when my view of Israel “profoundly” altered. For me it was some time ago. But more recently I think it was a Max Blumenthal presentation in Germany that surprised me. I can’t place the link right now. He was showing slides of placards and graffiti in Israel, translating them into English. Basically very vulgar bigotry and racism. Racism that you don’t even see in Dukes of Hazard country in the US. I mean, recently the Americans had a debate about whether you can use the “N” word. But Blumenthal, as a Jew, could get up close to bigots on the street without fear of being beat up and record them.
The signs Blumenthal translated are so offensive that it did occur to me that he might be representing them inaccurately, but if that is the case, I’m sure someone will point that out.
But I think that is one of Blumenthal’s recurring tactics, presenting what Israelis are saying in Israel, to the English audience, and it isn’t pretty.
There is likely no single journalist whose work is more pored over in search of the smallest errors than Max Blumenthal. It’s a veritable Zionist industry. No material errors have been located in his previous major work, the book Goliath. I assure you this is not for lack of trying.
If Max reports that a sign says X, it is almost certain that the sign says X. If the sign did not in fact say X, this would be all over the Internet including Twitter. I’ve heard, however, no such thing about anything Max has reported.
Well that was very nice of you to say, JLocke. I am absurdly, even pathetically, pleased when someone finds value in something I have written here. Your contributions are likewise appreciated by me and, I’m sure, plenty of others.
One never knows what sort of reaction one will inspire in this forum. Just this morning I was urged to stop polluting this blog, move to Israel and join the IDF. (Meanwhile, half my family thinks I’ve joined Hamas.) But I somehow doubt the IDF would be very interested in a wimpy middle-aged diabetic, so I guess I’ll stay put.
One never knows what sort of reaction one will inspire in this forum. Just this morning I was urged to stop polluting this blog, move to Israel and join the IDF. (Meanwhile, half my family thinks I’ve joined Hamas.)
It’s a confusing world, fer sure. But situations like that kind of put you in the big league, sorta like Glenn as a Liberal/Rightwing/Libertarian, iykwim. ;-}
As for the rest, I don’t think you’re wimpy, unless ‘wimpy’ means ‘thoughtful enough to change opinions based on facts’, none of us can do anything about becoming middle-aged (and ‘middle-aged’ ain’t what it used to be) and we all have our physical challenges which have nothing to do with our abilities to affect people on the web or in real life. As a middle-aged, spine-injury-gravity-and-height-challenged woman with firm opinions, I salute you too. :-)
As always, bless your heart and mind, Pedinska.
I guess not being IDF material is not an entirely bad thing.
Good article:
– “The BDS Movement at 10: An interview with Omar Barghouti
Anchored in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the BDS movement is a human rights based, non-sectarian, inclusive movement that rejects all forms of racism, including anti-Semitism and Israel’s tens of racist laws. BDS calls for equal rights for all humans, irrespective of identity. It targets Israel and entities that are complicit in its regime of oppression, not based on any real or claimed identity, but based on the fact that this regime of oppression denies Palestinians their UN-stipulated rights under international law.
If Israel were to identify itself as Christian, Islamic, or Hindu state, we would still strive to isolate its regime of oppression to achieve our rights.
BDS has never targeted Jews or Israelis as Jews; it struggles to end an unjust regime that enslaves our people with occupation, apartheid and denial of the refugees’ UN-stipulated rights. There are Jewish-Israeli partners in the BDS movement that play a significant role in exposing Israel’s regime of oppression and advocating for isolating it. Moreover, we are proud of the disproportionately high number of Jewish activists in the BDS movement, especially in Jewish Voice for Peace.”
http://mondoweiss.net/2015/07/movement-interview-barghouti
Barghouti does have his critics, apparently according to a NYDailynews editorial, he has a nefarious plan for:
NYDN – the creation of a single “secular, democratic state”
– “That, ultimately, is the nefarious truth behind his libels. It is also why many New Yorkers rose up in proper protest after Brooklyn College’s political science department endorsed Barghouti’s campus lecture.”
http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/lies-truth-article-1.1271323?pgno=1#ixzz2LzEtgezc
Yeah, what kind of a whack school would endorse a secular democratic state???
This is a more detailed talk on BDS.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkqdrWFjw-Y
One of the comments below the video is funny:
– youtube comment – “He is not Palestinian. Leader of the boycott of Israel, Omar Barghouti, is Georgian. The Barghouti family’s origin at all from Georgia, were brought to Palestine in the second half of the 19th century”
There is nothing funnier than an Israel occupation defender, trying to use Barghouti’s supposed 19th century ancestors, as an invalidation of his argument.
…Wow! Martin Luther King Jr’s ancestors weren’t from America! I guess all the arguments of the civil rights movement disappear!!! Oh and it’s BDS that is racist, not the people looking into opponents’ 19th century family trees!!! (He’s from Georgia, you know!!!)
The Nation explores why Israel will engage in another bloody assault on Gaza, and that Hamas rockets have virtually nothing to do with it (my emphasis): http://www.thenation.com/article/israel-will-invade-gaza-again-the-only-question-is-how-soon/
“That Hamas rockets have virtually nothing to do with it (my emphasis): ”
Any proof that “Hamas Rockets” have anything to do with Hamas?
There are problems with abandoning universal suffrage, in favour of a racist based citizenship. To maintain power, over time, the definition, of who is a real…”whatever”, needs to be increasingly restricted. Who is a real Jew? Are converts real Jews? What if Palestinians converted?, What if sects you didn’t like, claiming to be Jews, demanded the vote?, Who decides, who is Jewish? What if Jews and non-Jews marry?
A racist state, whether it’s keeping track of how much black blood someone has in their veins, or how many Jewish ancestors they have, is a lot more complicated than a representative democracy that simply lets adults vote.
– “A prominent member in the cabinet of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has reiterated his controversial opinions on Reform Jews, a denomination that comprises a sizable proportion of the global Jewish population, including in the United States.
David Azoulay, Israel’s minister for religious services and a member of the ultra-Orthodox Shas party, told an Israeli radio station on Tuesday that “I cannot allow myself to say” that a Reform Jew is actually Jewish.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2015/07/08/an-israeli-minister-doubts-the-jewishness-of-many-american-jews/
Overall, what stands out in these comments, on this thread up till now, is the lack of any sustained defence of Israel’s actions. There seems to be an inability or unwillingness to do more than lob isolated comments, without any follow-through. I doubt some Israeli defenders here would pass the Turing test.
So I’ll offer my own defence of Israel’s actions.
Israel – “Listen, we’d like to be a human rights respecting democracy, but to do so would mean accepting that our ruling ethnic group would over time become a minority, and if you people in the west are happy accepting that sort of thing, the idea of a Muslim Europe or a Black America,…well, we’re not.
So, we’re not happy about it, but the “Jewish-democracy” of Israel is going to get less democratic, and more Jewish. Not because we want to, but democracy is about numbers, and we just don’t have the numbers. Now having accepted the idea that we are abandoning democracy, we can be a smaller Jewish country, inside the pre-occupation borders, or we can be a bigger Jewish country and keep control of the occupied territories. We’d like to be a bigger Jewish country.
…But, even though our violent racist project should leave you, as liberal democracies, no reason to prioritize us over the other brutal dictatorships in the Middle East, it’s in our interest to appeal to your religious fantasies, collective guilt, and any thing else that could cause you to feel connected to us.”
You’re not quite there yet. Keep practicing and you may get that Hasbara position.
If it’s any consolation, I was rejected too.
And then there is “Ron”:
Ron – ‘the Israeli Army released copies of an official Hamas manual that it discovered in the Shuja’iya neighborhood of Gaza”
the Israelis may have created the manual, as well as found it, but the claim is that it describes the difficulty the Israelis have dealing with the civilian population, and strategies for using that to Hamas’ advantage.
Again, this is another point that I find puzzling.
Back to WWII, if the resistance created a manual describing the difficulties the Nazis were having dealing with the resistance in occupied territory, and ways to take advantage of that,….I wouldn’t expect the Nazis to expect people in democracies to accept that document as justification for the Nazi’s treatment of the people under occupation.
So, assuming the Israelis are trying to appeal to people who value human rights, democracy,…this “manual” claim, as something that responds to world outrage at the massive death and destruction of the occupation, is perhaps another rhetorical device that isn’t designed to survive close scrutiny.
The Hamas manual is a proven fake. Look it up. 100% created.
This is proven by folds in the so called scanned and copied paper, through these folds were pixel perfect straight lines. This is obviously impossible, it was a sloppy forgery.
https://youtu.be/JCguq3hTC2M
– “The Hamas manual is a proven fake.”
That may as well be, myself I wasn’t able to find much on its provenance, past the Israeli army. I would expect that Hamas, the principal resistance movement in Gaza for some time, having developed a quasi-governmental structure and bureaucracy even under Israeli bombardment…I would expect any such group to develop an institutional memory, put it on paper, formulating strategies and tactics to counter the occupation with force, using the enemy’s own strengths against them.
From the testimonies of Israeli soldiers, the IDF blows up everything, before entering a Gaza area, and then upon entering, they shoot everyone they find alive. That must be some Hamas manual that “forces” Israeli troops to do that.
Mohammed – “Max is an idiot. 1. Egypt is blocking the other border. ”
Yeah when people bring that up, as a defence of Israeli apartheid, it puzzles me.
Again, in WWII terms, a defence of Nazi actions is: ”but the Italian Fascists are cooperating with them!”?
Not quite sure that they’ve thought that through.
That Israel, a hyphenated “Jewish-democracy”, where millions of people don’t have the vote, has common cause with a military coup junta in Egypt, that is in the process of putting the elected government and hundreds of protesters to death, is probably not the best rhetorical line to take.
Amen Max. .. people that eloquent need to be saved.
You’re a fraud, ondelette. This is typical fraudulent commenting I’ve seen from you again and again when cornered:
For whatever reason, ondelette seems to have his fingertips on a lot of horrible facts and terrible figures… some of them are accurate (I’ve checked).
*obviously, idk who “you people” are that ondelette directs his “real accusation” towards (ie. “when it comes to any other horror show, you people simply dont care”) … but I suspect one of them is Glenn Greenwald, y’all. :)
Nick Kristof wrote about South Sudan last Saturday. Like Blumenthal, he went to the scene of horrible atrocities and interviewed survivors:
Fwiw, ondelette’s criticism is based on this:
That makes it different than arbitrary (Russia, China, Iran) whataboutery.
I read as many of the articles on the front page of ReliefWeb as I can, every day. When they’re in French, I practice my French on them, too. When I get the time, I research the history of them, or the techniques used. I do that because I’m required to be informed on those issues and those countries, which actually do frequently include the Palestinians, too. When necessary, I do more serious data collection. Pictet once said that justice and caritas will always eventually clash. So be it.
The notion that some here have that I would do all that because of a personal grievance against Glenn Greenwald is just inane. But since I won’t ever be telling anyone why I do it, there will always be people here that think that’s logical, even though I would have to be so fast at fact gathering to do that only in response to criticism here that just think about it, I would have to be carrying X-Keyscore inside my head. Obviously that never happens, and I gathered what you call horrible facts and figures for some other purpose. Just think of what a column here must look like and what the commenters here must sound like if you already knew all those horrible facts and figures and then came and read here.
Don’t get me wrong, I spend time talking about Anwar al Awlaki too. I just never decide that his one death is so much more important to all the people that died that year in the Great Lakes Region that I shouldn’t care about M23. I just never decide that Bibi Netanyahu, no matter how much I’ve cringed every time his face hits my TV screen, is so much more important than also U.S. backed Paul Kigali that I will just ignore the accusations of the UN that between 40,000 and 60,000 innocent civilian Congolese died in brutal reprisals for the Rwandan Genocide. Glenn is quite right to say that the suffering is more important than the statistics. But numeracy is important, and tens of thousands who die in war crimes in Africa don’t deserve to disappear into history in vain so that we can have yet one more fun debate about civilian DPH and Anwar Awlaki.
Kitt, let me explain something to you. The fact that multiple commenters are raining criticism on me does not in any way make me “cornered”. You are desperately trying to make my real accusation into a whataboutery, and to claim that you have scored some big victory of logic over me. It isn’t whataboutery.
This article we’re commenting under is about the anniversary of a war that rained down violence and destruction on a people and killed 2147 of them. Meanwhile, yet another African war was consuming lives at a far greater rate, had brutality completely unmatched in Gaza, and was being ignored. It wouldn’t be a matter of accusations if it hadn’t happened before, over and over and over again. This “news” channel, with it’s well funded and Pulitzer winning head, is supposed to be different. Baldie was calling Glenn a great humanitarian just two days ago. Where is the humanity in Palestinian lives being worth more than African ones? If what counts is not the statistics but the intimate knowledge of human suffering, then where is the coverage of people being obliterated, in what is quite literally a genocide in Blue Nile and the Nuba Mountains in Sudan? Where is the coverage of Nuer women being raped and then having their faces sliced in South Sudan? Where is the coverage of the fierce brutality of the machete wars in the Central African Republic? Where is the coverage of the people who’ve fled into the marshes on Lake Chad, or into the swamps of the Sudd, with the rainy season at hand and cut off from all food? Where is the coverage of the climate change disaster going on in Bangladesh and how unfair it is to cover the migrant boats as “genuine” refugee Rohingya and “economic migrants” from Bangladesh? What, are those Bengali Muslims not Muslim enough to count as oppressed here?
Tens of thousands are dying quite horribly in wars and migrations this “news” channel doesn’t care about. That isn’t whataboutery it’s an existential question: Why? Why don’t any of you care? I work in this stuff, I am well aware of so–called compassion fatigue, I’m well aware that confronting the enormity of human suffering on this planet right now is overwhelming, but to fixate constantly on one guy killed by a drone, or on one conflict to the exclusion of all others, what’s the point? Are you taking up propagandistic Muslim causes as a calling? Why? There are plenty of Muslims out there who are suffering and their plight has nothing to do with frigging Israel or drones. One place you can find them is in those marshes on Lake Chad. You’ve never heard of them. And because so many people have never heard of them, efforts to get the basic necessities of human dignity to them are so fucking underfunded that the food is being rationed. Your ignorance is causing real Muslims to really die. You think I’m cornered? No. You’re blinkered. Don’t you think the refugee population in Aden who got set on by Yemenis when everybody started to fear the Saudi bombs are Muslim enough to care about? Why? Because they’re blacks from Somalia? Their problem is food, not drones. And you don’t care about slow killers like starvation at all, as far as I can tell.
As for my original query to rrheard, correctly pointed out to him that his ” I wish every single Palestinian good fortune in killing any and all Israeli IDF members and reservists” comment, in light of the pervasiveness of that status among the Israeli population, was precious close to calling for genocide. I did not, and quite deliberately did not, pass judgment on that, I merely asked him a question about it — as in, are you sure you want to go down that road? — and you jumped on me about accusations. You refuse to lay off, so I made a quite real accusation, just for you. I’ll make it as clear as I can, how about? You don’t care about Africans dying, only Arabs. Want it any clearer than that? Or would you like me to speculate on the reason these pages don’t care about dark skinned deaths?
People ain’t gonna learn what they don’t want to know, and on the internet, that means a horde of self-righteous censors will make sure the really uncomfortable news out there stays the fuck away from their pretty little opinions.
In this case, yes it does. You’ve been handed multiple questions and points you will not or cannot directly address — because you are cornered.
Nope. Greenwald, Blumenthal, many of us reading here, we represent a long-overdue pro-Palestinian cohort that fights the Israel Lobby Goliath. Our government is bought by this Lobby and we give Israel $3.1 billion annually that it uses in part to destroy Palestinians. We are complicit in the carnage of last summer and the ongoing oppression of Gazans and Palestinains in the West bank.
So, it isn’t that we don’t care about Africans; we just are morally called to oppose those who make us complicit in the crimes against Palestinians.
You know all this. You just are looking for points to natter on about. That’s who you are.
Actually, no, Mona. “So, it isn’t that we don’t care about Africans; we just are morally called to oppose those who make us complicit in the crimes against Palestinians.” doesn’t quite cut it. You actually don’t care about Africans. They die, you ignore. Your cause is far too righteous to beg any criticism, and that’s that. But when I talk to a young American who’s fully steeped in your self-righteous campaigns, and all the other self-righteous campaigns, and mention that there was a war in Africa that killed more people than any other war since World War II, they don’t even know about it. Their first reaction is always the same: How could something so horrible have happened and nobody knew? Didn’t they care?
So your Onward Greenwald Soldiers “long-overdue pro-Palestinian cohort” doesn’t really care, and you know it.
Damn you are tiresome.Who the hell created S.Sudan but US?Why is Africa a hellhole?Nothing to do with continual western imperialism and wealth extraction?Zimbawe,your? enemy Mugabe’s nation,is a relative paradise compared to the rest of the continent.Why,we have no influence there.
And its not us,but your pals the MSM who are supposed to focus on Africa,but obviously don’t,one main reason it would expose our perfidy,and historical crimes against the area,just like everywhere else.
Yankee Come home!
Ondelette, your empty anecdotes and pejorative (mis)charactreizations of readers here do not alter this reality:
Add the diplomatic cover for Israel, including a crucial vote at the UN to our crimes against the Palestinian people. It all spells: COMPLICITY. And that’s why so many of us support the Palestinian struggle.
Yes, and that’s apparently the verdict everywhere he imposes himself. I can’t recall the particulars, but Ondelette got voted down, or banned, or some such thing at Firedoglake, made a huge rucus, contacted Jane Hamsher who smacked him down — it had something to do with Ondelette falsely claiming an author there did something wrong on the topic of rape.
He’s widely loathed over there for pretty much the same reason Glenn called him an “embittered liar” 5 years ago or so at Salon.
I did read some of what you wrote in that long reply to whatever or whomever it was that you were replying to, and I have no apology for not reading all of it. I think what you don’t get about my complaint about you is that it has next to nothing at all to do with your gripes, or whatever, about Glenn — past or present. I don’t want to pretend to psychoanalyze you or really even guess at where you’re coming from. Fact is, I really don’t know and don’t much care. Whatever good you are doing in the world — and it appears that you are making quite a commendable effort to do some good — I tip my hat to you and thank you for that.
As for myself, my interests are what they are for reasons of my own. I can’t take on or be deeply knowledgeable about all of what you’ve mentioned. Doesn’t mean I don’t care, and reading you over and over again saying that it does mean that is annoying.
I have always been interested in the systemic abuse of the underclass and others by police and the judicial system. I’ve been exposed to a lot of that first hand, especially in my younger years, and so that is one reason why I’ve remained interested and enraged and engaged about that during the visible police abuse during Occupy, and now during the abuse that has been so well documented by ‘Black Lives Matter’ and others over the past year. That subject, and many of the subjects that Glenn has written about and continues to write about, are some of my most specific interests and are areas where I interact and at least hope to make some difference.
Check in on the writings by Radley Balko. He quite often addresses the subjects that I’m most interested in. Such as today he wrote about this one specific horrible out of control judge who bullied and has now jailed three children. I was following that even before Balko wrote about it. I will follow that and will hope to see a result of the children being released and the judge being removed from the bench, and even charged with child abuse or whatever charges could and should be brought against her due to her actions. That’s the sort of injustice that interests me the most.
I guess I just get tired of being berated by you, or reading you berate others for not taking on every interest that you bring to the table in threads, wherein you usually just end up distracting from the subject of the current thread–which is most always about some injustice done to somebody(s).
Here’s Balko on the subject I mentioned about the judge and the kids:
judge bullies kids in open court for refusing to see their dad— Radley Balko
I guess you leave out the part about who incited the hostilities my bombing Israel, no? Doesn’t fit “The Narrative?” What’s so First Look about that?
Hi Yitzchak Baruch Fishel
Why do you choose one side over the other while not realizing that the two sides are really one?
Re: incitement
On August 5, the Israeli Army released copies of an official Hamas manual that it discovered in the Shuja’iya neighborhood of Gaza, where one of the fiercest battles of the war was fought.
It’s titled “Urban Warfare,” and it was produced by Hamas’s Shuja’iya Brigade.The manual includes detailed instructions on how to use the civilians of Gaza against Israel. It explains how because of Israel’s concern about civilian casualties, Hamas can use the “presence of civilians” to its military advantage. Having civilians nearby causes the Israelis “(1) Problems with opening fire; (2) Problems in controlling the civilian population during operations and afterward; (3) Assurance of supplying medical care to civilians who need it.”
The “Urban Warfare” manual also emphasizes the benefits of damage to civilian property: “The destruction of civilian homes: This increases the hatred of the citizens towards the attackers [the IDF] and increases their gathering [support] around the city defenders (resistance forces[i.e. Hamas]).”
Lesson twenty of the Gaza war: The “racism” lie spouted by the likes of Diana Buttu and Yousef Munayyer cannot change the inescapable truth that Hamas deliberately uses Palestinian civilians as human shields, and therefore bears complete responsibility for the harm that has come to them.
It’s fake, the manual is a proven fake.
https://youtu.be/JCguq3hTC2M
1. It is impossible for Hamas to “bear complete responsibility” for what happens to Gazans, because the Gazans are refugees of Zionist aggression (slaughter, ethnic cleansing and land theft) whom Israel corrals in the open air prison on the shrunken Gaza strip. That is, Israel is responsible as the occupying aggressor and Hamas is merely one manifestation of Palestinian resistance.
2. Israel and the IDF have repeatedly committed war crimes by using Palestinian civilians — including children — as human shields. This has been going on for decades, and continues even tho the Israeli Supreme Court ruled it illegal a short time ago.
Serial liars lie serially.
Mr. Blumenthal
“………Next to the Israeli flag was a U.N. flag draped in black, in protest of the now-defunct U.N. resolution correctly declaring Zionism to be a form of racism…….All of these questions were roiling in my mind when I returned and the Second Intifada erupted…..I witnessed the second invasion of Lebanon, which destroyed a large part of Beirut……..”
That is exactly why you have no credibility, Mr. Blumenthal. However, I do compliment you on your “advocacy” journalism which you – exactly like Glenn – leave out details which might give a different perspective of events.
First of all, the second Intifada was started by Arafat after a peace offer from Israel. I know that is only a minor detail for someone advocating for the Palestinians. There was no reason to start a war, but Arafat was first and foremost a terrorist. While the military assault on Gaza was brutal costing the lives of 2000 Palestinians, the second Intifada resulted in the death of 5500 people including about 1000 Jews. The second Intifada lasted for several years. Israeli civilians were targeted for murder throughout the war:
“…….The Yeshivat Beit Yisrael massacre[1] was a Palestinian suicide bombing which occurred in the Beit Yisrael neighborhood in downtown Jerusalem on March 2, 2002. Eleven Israeli civilians were killed in the attack, including two infants, three children and two teenagers. Over 50 people were injured in the attack, four of them critically. The bombing took place at the entrance of the Harediyeshiva “Beit Yisrael” in central Jerusalem where people had gathered for a bar mitzva celebration…..”
This was a common occurrence. Of course, by not mentioning this, you are dehumanizing the Jews targeted for murder by several Palestinian terrorist organizations in a war started by the Palestinians. And by suggesting in the last conflict that Hamas didn’t target civilians, you are attempting to cover up one hundred years of targeting civilian Jews for murder including in the last couple of weeks. Propaganda is a wonderful thing, isn’t it?
In addition to starting the second Intifada, Hezbollah also miscalculated and started the war in 2006 with Israel by attacking and attempting to kidnap Israeli soldiers and killing several. Hezbollah operates as a member of the Lebanese government but maintains a separate militia (now fighting in Syria to prop up Assad the murderer who is responsible for the death of over 250,000 people/Muslims). The Lebanese militia started the war and Lebanon paid the price as they should. Nasrallah apologized to the Lebanese people after the war and during Operation Cast Lead, Hezbollah maintained their distance. The strategy of punishing Lebanon for the actions of Hezbollah has kept Hezbollah from becoming too bold.
You also fail to mention that Israel dismantled their settlements in Gaza allowing Gazans to operate independently of Israel. In return, Gazans elected an internationally recognized terrorist organization to run their affairs. Palestinians aren’t stupid. They were fully aware of the racist Hamas charter and the Hamas goal to destroy Israel. Hamas responded by bringing two wars to Gaza with the result of killing 3500 Palestinians. Hamas constructed tunnels into Israel out of cement. How much cement was used to build bomb shelters to protect the people of Gaza? Shockingly, none. Gazans had nowhere to go or hide while Hamas launched missiles from civilian areas. Of course, Hamas were looking out for the good of the Palestinians? Or just using them for political expediency.
Netanyahu’s highly criticized comment of Hamas exploiting the deaths of Palestinians for political expediency is much closer to the truth. The Palestinians are winning the international popularity contest – and more dead Palestinians add to the international pressure on Israel. Dragging Israel before the ICC for war crimes just gives more ammunition for westerners who believe that Israeli treatment of the Palestinians is the primary reason that the Islamic world has gone haywire (like Greenwald and Scahill).
Finally, the Zionism equals racism is propaganda at its worst. As you well know, Zionism is Jewish self-determination i.e., re-establishment of the Jewish home in the Land of Israel (in Palestine). Of course, there are racist Jews in Israel just as there are racist Arabs in Palestine. Just look around the Middle East. There is an infestation of racism, sectarian-based bigotry and hatred among Arabs (and non Arabs). Almost all of it has nothing to do with Israel. Muslims are murdering Muslims at an insane rate throughout the Middle East – for power.
Another Intercept article and more abuse of “advocacy” journalism.
Craig, the Palestinians never — literally never — start a war with Israel. The Zionist started a war when they ethnically cleansed Arab homes, villages and cities and appropriated it all, and threw many of the refugees in the open air prison that is Gaza. This culminated in 1948 and has been ongoing to this day.
Since that time, the Palestinians have resisted their oppressor in a variety of ways. Each time they do so they are a resistance movement fighting against a tyrannical enemy. They no more “start a war” than did the French Resistance in its many violent assaults on invading fascist Germans.
“more abuse of “advocacy” journalism” – CraigSummers
CraigSummers, as with the above, you continually end your ‘arguments’ with supposed summations that you think support your assertions.
Time and again, however, they refute and/or negate them.
In this most recent sojourn into cognitive dissonance of yours there is no “abuse” of advocacy journalism – there is only what actually happened and everything else.
Just one example: the “Finally, the Zionism equals racism is propaganda at its worst” strawman that you erect is your construct, not these journalists.
It follows only the pattern of fallaciousness that you continually apply to anyone’s arguments that you disagree with:
Ad Hominem
Ad Hominem Tu Quoque
Appeal to Authority
Appeal to Belief
Appeal to Common Practice
Appeal to Consequences of a Belief
Appeal to Emotion
Appeal to Fear
Appeal to Flattery
Appeal to Novelty
Appeal to Pity
Appeal to Popularity
Appeal to Ridicule
Appeal to Spite
Appeal to Tradition
Bandwagon
Begging the Question
Biased Sample
Burden of Proof
Circumstantial Ad Hominem
Composition
Confusing Cause and Effect
Division
False Dilemma
Gambler’s Fallacy
Genetic Fallacy
Guilt By Association
Hasty Generalization
Ignoring A Common Cause
Middle Ground
Misleading Vividness
Personal Attack
Poisoning the Well
Post Hoc
Questionable Cause
Red Herring
Relativist Fallacy
Slippery Slope
Special Pleading
Spotlight
Straw Man
Two Wrongs Make A Right
So in the end it’s the same ol’ CraigSummers – and the same ol’ fallacies.
A Welcome Back to Hell Production™
I think if we turned the accusation (‘once’ made) on it’s head it could read: CraigSummers calls for the murder of Palestinians and/or the construction of concrete bomb shelters…
The first underground open air prison?
No heads up needed peaked cap flicked to SP…… I suspected you’d have something to say CS …. an open letter of apology to Mona was all I was ever after.
“Of course”/”Of course”….. “insane rate”/racists on both sides rant.
P.S Read the fucking book… And try looking at some of the pictures that exist from 2014 coming out of ‘Pallywood’ (a word I’ll use to end on instead of quoting your advocacy journalism BS)
Hell™
That this conviction happened is very odd: “IDF soldiers convicted of using 11-year-old as human shield in Gaza”
It’s been outlawed because — over the vehement objections of the IDF — the Israeli Supreme Court said no. But the IDF made quite clear it would continue anyway, and there are many reports of Gazans having been used by the IDF as human shields last summer during so-called Operation Protective Edge.
Link to Haaretz piece: http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/idf-soldiers-convicted-of-using-11-year-old-as-human-shield-in-gaza-1.316867
Just writing to apologize –
I didn’t realize I stumbled on to a hate site run by ten people with only one agenda in the world.
I have seen similar hate speech but usually its reserved for White Power sites.
Best of luck to all of you – maybe one day you will come to the realization how blinded you are by your hatred but I doubt it – Goodbye!
Shorter Mark Nyer: “I didn’t know there were many commenters here who are extremely well informed and that my hasbara-ist platitudes went get me anywhere with them. So bye-bye.”
“Mark, you’re so sensitive..”
https://youtu.be/f-moqlaAI_k
A Tito Pass Me A Tissue Jermaine Stop Teasing Production
ht `moan-ah
Howdy donger, how they hangin’?
`mona..
They’ve been gleefully hanging ‘independent(ly)’ [aka – ‘commando’], ever since they were made privy to our “Pacification” of the Philippine Isles citizenry..
`c-nobz.. What say you, Stallion?!
[snip]
“Pacification” Begins in Earnest:
In December 1900, with the election safely out of the way, martial law was declared and the pretense of civil government was scrapped. American operations were extended to southern Luzon and to the Visayan islands of Leyte, Samar, Panay, Negros and Cebu. As far as the American command was concerned there were no longer any neutrals. Everyone was now considered an active guerrilla or a guerrilla supporter. Thus in the Visayas campaign the Navy felt free to shell the coastal villages with its gunboats prior to invasion. In January and February 1901, the entire popUlation of Marinduque Island (pop. 51,000) was ordered into five concentration camps set up by the Americans. All those who did not comply with the order” … would be considered as acting in sympathy with the insurgent forces and treated accordingly.”24 This was to be the first of many instances of the application of the reconcentrado policy in the Philippines. Ironically, it was the abhorrence of just this sort of policy-when it was practiced by the Spanish General “Butcher” Weyler in Cuba-which so exercised American public opinion against Spain prior to the outbreak of the Spanish-American War.
http://www.historyisaweapon.com/defcon1/franciscofirstvietnam.html
An America Is A Shining City Upon A Hill Whose Beacon Light Guides Freedom-Loving People Everywhere Production
Max is an idiot. 1. Egypt is blocking the other border. 2. Hamasaki launched rockets indiscriminately at Israel with the hope of killing anyone, 3. These Palestina MO is to kill civilians and they have been doing this forever. I guess it was Israel fault that the PLO more red Israeli athletes in the Munich Olympic??? WTF???
Great Interview. Wish it were longer.
The only thing that dwarfs Max’ palpably superior IQ and encyclopedic knowledge of every detail, is humanity he displays on a regular basis. He must have great parents. Just the way he takes on Hillary Clinton in his tweets, given that his parents are Sidney and Jaqueline Blumenthal, is a testament to how well he was raised. Fearless.
Max, you’re the best. I enjoy everything you write. Whether it’s on the Palestinian issue or whether it’s about civil rights violations of minorities or the homeless in New Mexico, or republican politics, you bring a level of detail that is absent in journalism. You’re a unique voice among unique voices Max. I thank you sir.
I’ll say it plainly–every single Israeli citizen who is an IDF member or reservist should be viewed as a legitimate military target for any Palestinian–regardless of whether they are on active duty or not. I wish every single Palestinian good fortune in killing any and all Israeli IDF members and reservists until such time as Palestine is a sovereign nation.
And quite frankly if there is collateral damage among Israeli civilians as a result that is simply reaping what you sow and the chickens coming home to roost as far as I’m concerned. I will lose no more sleep over it than Israelis appear to lose over the death of hundreds if not thousands of innocent Palestinian women and children. Palestinians have an irrefutable moral right to resist the occupation of their lands and subjugation of their people by the State of Israel.
I would send Palestinian resistance fighters money and/or arms if it was legal to do so. But since it is illegal, I will urge every friend and family member to officially, or in practice, join with me in supporting the BDS movement until such time as the Palestinian people are free and Israeli war criminals are prosecuted.
Israel will never work toward a peaceful solution or end to the subjugation of the Palestinian people. Israel will not stop until every single Palestinian is dead or has been forcibly resettled in other nations. That’s the state of Israel’s plain agenda and isn’t a secret based on decades of its actions.
It is incumbent upon the people of the world to treat Israel with exactly the same political respect and economic freedom that Israel shows Palestinians–which is to say exactly none. In fact any decent people or nation should refuse to grant visas and bar Israeli citizens from entering their nations until Palestine is free. Moreover, the people of the world should start BDSing the United States of America as well. So long as Israel has the backing of the US government nothing will change.
Well said, rr.
It is hard for me to endorse violence, but at the end of the day I am not a pacifist. Because the “Jewish State” is the aggressor that continues aggressing against the Palestinians whom they occupy and oppress, I do endorse your statements. All peoples have the right to resist violent oppression.
-”Israel will never work toward a peaceful solution or end to the subjugation of the Palestinian people.”
I can understand that. They’ve spent resources on military defences, colonial outposts, nuclear bombs, etc.
Why would they just GIVE up their certain military advantage for an uncertain peace, trust their security situation to a peaceful relationship with neighbours that will be rocky. When the status quo allows ordinary Jews to feel no immediate pain. Sure their racist project is heading off a cliff, but for now, why give up their advantages, dominant military position, ability to grab the best land water, and why would they opt to have their Jewish votes diluted in a sea of Palestinian/Arab voters?
What BDS does, (evidently) is put the first real reason on the table for the Jews in Israel to see a cost to continuing a violent occupation that in itself doesn’t bother their own conscience.
In South Africa, at some point they made the decision: “yes we have an overwhelming military position, yes only we get to vote, yes we have nuclear weapons. Yes our future in a democratic state is uncertain. But we have to do it”
@rrheard: “if there is collateral damage among Israeli civilians as a result that is simply reaping what you sow … I will lose no more sleep over it…”
What if the Israeli civilian killed as “collateral damage” is an Arab Muslim? (About a million Israeli civilians are.) Would that trouble your sleep?
When you say “Israeli” civilians, do you really mean “Jewish” civilians? Speak plainly.
@ Gator 90
I did speak plainly. Israeli civilians are Israeli civilians to me whether Jewish, Arab or Muslim. I will lose as much sleep over it as Israeli civilians lose over the death of Palestinian women and children. I feel sorrow for any civilian in any conflict no more nor less for a Palestinian than an Israeli. But there is no doubt in my mind that Israel has and will continue to be the oppressor of the Palestinian people as they have been since the inception of the state of Israel. The Israel citizenry could elect and demand that their government change its policies with regard to Palestine. They don’t and as near as I can tell never will. If they die as a consequence of their chosen policies I will not lose sleep over it.
@ Gator90 & Ondelette
Let me put it more simply. If the military forces of Canada and Mexico blockaded and occupied America the way Israel does to Palestine, would you feel morally justified in fighting to repel and kill those forces and/or defeat their military until such time as they were no longer occupying American lands and subjugating the American people?
If not then by my definition you are cowards. And if you don’t see that as the exact tight analogy to how Israel has treated Palestinians since its inception then I can’t help you. I’d advise reading some books on the subject. The only reason a war of any kind should ever be fought, morally, is against an and invading and/or occupying nation. That’s precisely what Israel is. I have nothing but contempt for the state of Israel and sympathy for the Palestinian people.
And in the same vein I feel shame as an American in how America stole this land from its indigenous inhabitants and its continued refusal to adequately address the consequences born by those peoples as a result and that they suffer from to this day.
Since Israel has universal conscription, correct me if I’m wrong, but in addition to clearly advocating reprisal, are you advocating genocide?
I’m clearly advocating self-defense against the occupying military forces of an occupying nation. I’m advocating fighting against those military forces until such time as Palestine has achieved sovereignty and is no long occupied by the military forces of the state of Israel. If Palestinians commit war crimes in defending their lands and people they should be appropriately held accountable. Same for Israelis. As far as I understand it, one cannot commit “genocide” against the military forces of another nation. That Israel chooses to make each and every one of its citizens a member of the military is a political choice. As far as I understand it, the citizens of Israel are members of a democracy and could choose to change that law. But that’s Israel’s problem not the Palestinians. And so long as those military members or reservists continue to attack Palestinians and engage in collective punishment I have absolutely zero moral problem with Palestinians seeing each and every member of the Israeli military as a legitimate military target unless they are surrendering or wounded.
One commits genocide by intending to destroy in whole or in part a race, religion, ethnical or national group. If your prescription of who the Palestinians should kill includes in whole or in part all of Israel’s adult population, then you’re shaving very close to the line.
That’s why I asked, I think you need to find out who is reserve first before you make such a statement. That’s all. No cowardice involved, sorry.
So, if a nation militarizes much or most of its adult population that population ceases to constitute military targets?
@ Ondelette
Stop being purposefully obtuse. It cannot be a genocide, not legally or morally, to seek the destruction of the military capability and soldiers of a nation which is invading and occupying your lands. And if you think somehow “reserves” in the IDF who can be called up, are always armed and able to fight in a day, as far as I’m concerned, that’s a rhetorical slight of hand to even refer to them as “reserves”. They are legitimate military targets in my book.
@Mona Back at you, so if a nation militarizes their whole population on paper, then regardless of anything else, it’s okay to kill them all and let god sort it out? You started out saying, “It is hard for me to endorse violence” and look at what you’re arguing now. Not a pacifist seems to be an understatement, Monabot.
Ondellete, you didn’t answer my question, which was: “So, if a nation militarizes much or most of its adult population that population ceases to constitute military targets?”
Well?
I did answer your question. It isn’t my fault if you didn’t understand the answer. Obviously, there is a limit beyond which you can’t just use the term “military” to decide you have the right to eliminate a population. That was kinda my point in the first place: If you declare that you want to see as many as possible of a particular group killed, then you aren’t arguing for military objectives anymore,you’re arguing to destroy in whole or in part. So once that not so very fine line is crossed, no, you are not within the law just because you can find some argument to call an entire population part of a military.
You are still not answering the question. The question pertains to the other side designating — in word and deed — much or most of its own adult population as military personnel. In that situation, do they cease to be military targets?
Your accusation couched as a question sounds a lot like the rhetoric Israel uses about the entire population of Gaza being the “Human Shields” that Hamas hides behind, and so that is why Israel is “forced” into killing civilians.
It wasn’t an accusation, it was not only a question, but a yes/no question. All the rest of what you felt is what you read into it yourself, Kitt.
Well, Rrheard replied to your “yes or no” “question” partially with this: “As far as I understand it, the citizens of Israel are members of a democracy and could choose to change that law.” And so you see, ondelette, that that is so damned obvious that I can’t take your claim of innocence seriously.
You’re flat out wrong, Kitt.
If you want to know what I feel, I feel that one doesn’t settle one war crime by committing another.
And I feel that tomorrow is the 4th anniversary of South Sudanese independence. On December 13, 2013 war broke out there. The war continues, but ICG estimated that between December 2013 and December 2014, between 50,000 and 100,000, maybe more, people lost their lives. That’s close to 7000 deaths every 51 days. I don’t know how many children died, but I do know that over 10,000 of them were recruited into militias, some as young as 10 years old. I do know that 1/3 of their population is at risk of starvation, and that the world cares so much that it is possibly the least funded relief effort in the world.
And I know, that despite the U.S. involvement in the inception of the country, it isn’t “US involvement” enough for anyone here to care.
And that, my dear Kitt, is what an accusation sounds like.
It was not an accusation, it was a question, in fact a yes/no question.
Quite the run around the mulberry bush there. Point was, and still is, Israeli people don’t have to put up with conscription. And I’m most certainly not your dear.
As the song says, You ain’t gonna learn what you don’t wanna know.
Yeah, the suffering in Africa is just a run around the mulberry bush About 7 black lives matter as much as one Palestinian life, is that it, Kitt? As I said, my real accusation is that when it comes to any other horror show, you people simply don’t care.
There’s been what some commenters believe is probably a typo on the column about HackerTeam for over a day now, saying the software was sold to the government of South Sudan. But who the fuck cares? Sudan? South Sudan? what difference does it make?
That’s how someone who comes in from the outside knows. Rant all you like about Gaza. Rave over the beauty of Glenn’s waxing poetic about “most affecting facts”. And when you’re done, empath, you missed the people who were really dying worse, because you didn’t really care.
Israel’s million or so Palestinian citizens are exempt from compulsory military service, and they are universally opposed to Israel’s policies toward Palestinians in the occupied territories (as are some of Israel’s Jewish citizens). But fuck it, they’re all Israelis who deserve to die, according to the nauseatingly bloodthirsty rrheard.
If tomorrow Gazans awoke to the same military power and prowess Israel possesses, would it be moral for Gazans to use these to vindicate their rights, repel the Zionist oppressor and retake their losses? Could this be done without any civilian casualties?
Would a Gazan war of reconquista be a moral exercise? I find that the older I get, the more pacifistic I become, and I am inclined to answer No. Presumably “retak[ing] their losses” would entail driving Jews off the lands in Israel once inhabited by the Gazans or their ancestors. This obviously could not be accomplished without massive civilian carnage, and the Jews of Israel have as much right to live in the land of their birth as any Caucasian has to live in America. (I don’t think I could get behind a Native American war to rid North America of white people either.)
In my view, the only moral solution to the I/P conundrum is a single country, consisting of present day Israel, Gaza and the West Bank, that would be home to both Jews and Palestinians, with dispossessed Palestinians and/or their descendants to be compensated monetarily. And the only moral way to achieve this solution is through peaceful means. (Maybe this is fantasy, but it’s more realistic than a Gazan military conquest of Israel, I’d wager.)
@ Gator90
I most certainly did not say anybody “deserved” to die. What I did say is that so long as Israel chooses its policies with regard to the Palestinians, particularly given the lopsided death ratio of Palestinian civilians to Israeli civilians, I’m absolutely losing no sleep over the fact those policies lead to consequences.
And again for the cheap seats, whether Palestinian Israeli or Jewish Israeli who works for peace and an end to Israel’s clearly morally repugnant policies, I will fill sorrow when they are caught in the crossfire–same as I do for a Palestinian civilian.
As Mona said, Israel in my book and many others aren’t properly understood as the “victims” in a large sense if they reap what they sow. Sorry you don’t like that and think I’m “nauseatingly bloodthirsty”, but I’ve made my views quite clear over the years and consistently. I only believe war is morally justifiable in self-defense. I believe that peace is superior to violence at a tactical level. Nevertheless, I feel strongly that you, me or any people has a right to throw off the shackles of violence, oppression or occupation by an outside force with almost any means available to them..
And I’ll tell you what’s really “bloodthirsty” is how the state of Israel has treated the Palestinian people since its inception. If you don’t understand what they’ve done I suggest you read some books on the topic. But until Israel changes is policies and actions toward the Palestinians you and ever other supporter of Israel can go straight to hell for all I care. I feel the same thing as an American when my county does horrible shit from Vietnam to Iraq. I did everything I could think of to stop it, and it didn’t happen. If those consequences fall on me or my loved ones or fellow citizens well that’s the price we pay for not figuring out a way to stop our venal leaders from murdering other human beings by the 100s of thousands if not millions.
You might have missed it, but for what it’s worth I am no longer a “supporter of Israel.” I concluded a year ago that Israel should cease to exist as a “Jewish state” and that is still what I believe.
I had missed that Gator. Thank you.
I appreciate your seeming awareness that Israel as a ‘Jewish State’ is not in humanity’s best interest.
Since when did the Occupied Territories become Israel?
Palestinians are not citizens of Israel.
There are a million or so Palestinian citizens of Israel. They face a great deal of discrimination, but they are citizens. Such as the journalist Rula Jebreal.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/28/opinion/rula-jebreal-minority-life-in-israel.html?_r=0
[snip]
Historical Background
Internally displaced Palestinians inside Israel are part of the larger Palestinian refugee population that was displaced/expelled from their villages and homes during the 1948 conflict and war in Palestine. At the end of the war, some 150,000 Palestinians remained in the areas of Palestine that became the state of Israel. This included approximately 30-40,000 Palestinians who were also displaced during the war. Like the approximately 800,000 Palestinian refugees who were displaced/expelled beyond the borders of the new state, Israel refused to allow internally displaced Palestinians to return to their homes and villages.
Displacement did not end with the 1948 war. In the years following the establishment of Israel, internally displaced Palestinians, as well as a small number of refugees who had returned spontaneously to their villages and Palestinians who had not been displaced during the war, and were expelled for security and other reasons. Israeli officials also carried out forced transfer of Palestinians from one village to another within the borders of the state in order to facilitate colonization of these areas. This included, for example, Palestinians from the villages of Iqrit, Bir’am, al-Ghabsiyya, Krad al-Baqqarah and Krad al-Ghannamah. Residents of these villages were expelled to Lebanon and Syria and transferred and resettled in nearby Palestinian villages.
Between 1948 and 1966, internally displaced Palestinians, like other Palestinian citizens of Israel, were placed under military rule. Military rule enabled Israel to complete the expropriation of land owned by both the refugees and the internally displaced. It also facilitated Israel’s ongoing colonization in these areas. Israeli military forces declared depopulated Palestinian villages as ‘closed military areas’ in order to prevent the return of internally displaced Palestinians. The practice also blocked implementation of several Israeli High Court decisions permitting internally displaced Palestinians from the villages of Iqrit, Bir’am and al-Ghabsiyya from returning to their villages.
https://web.archive.org/web/20060816073136/http://www.badil.org/Publications/Press/2002/press277-02.htm
A Discrimination Indeed Production
Of course Arab Israelis are Palestinian. For some reason I only equated Palestinians with the Occupied Territories. Beer time.
A P.B.R. (Pabst Blue Ribbon) On Tap production
ht `rr
Gator90, I’ve been reading your sick zionist hasbara for years now, you were quite a frequent “contributor” when Glenn was over at Salon. Do you ever give it a rest? I will never forget when you posted about how you cried when your child/children sang the Israeli national anthem (or something like that). You should really move to israel and join the IDF and stop polluting this blog. Seriously.
Gator90, I’ve been reading your sick zionist hasbara for years now, you were quite a frequent “contributor” when Glenn was over at Salon. Do you ever give it a rest?
It looks like you weren’t reading gator closely enough:
You should really move to israel and join the IDF and stop polluting this blog. Seriously.
Many, if not most, of the rest of us who read gator as a much more nuanced commenter than your characterization would disagree, vehemently, with your suggestion. Seriously.
I think you may not have read some things I have written here in the past year, including in this thread.
Gentle Folk reading the comments, kindly take a pencil or a mental pen and re-read the article, concentrating on inflammatory words, judgmental language and adjectives unusual outside of fiction. I think you find the slant, the bias, the concerns raised by most commentators to be pretty obvious.
Just take a single word: “BLATANTLY”, its use in the article adds absolutely nothing to the report…except for the judgment of the author. Lets call this article what it is…and its not objective reporting!
Greenwald doesn’t claim to be an “objective reporter.” And there is no such thing. “The view from nowhere,” as Jay
Rosen has coined it, is an illusion.
He and Max Blumenthal both accept the title of activist; the tradition of activist reporting is a long and noble American tradition. Far more noble than the corporate infotainment the mainstream media spews.
Finally, Greenwald and Blumenthal are meticulous about factual accuracy. That’s why they are reliable — not because of some airy fairy notion of “objectivity.”
Not that it matters to the content of your reply, Mona, but as an incidental I don’t see the word “blatantly” in the article or in the transcript. I see it only in “Ken Yard’s” comment. Using ctrl F did not not locate the word “blatantly,” no matter if I capitalized it or not.
How does one stay objective when covering war, death, human destruction, murder, racism, nazism, the kkk, violence against children, or just about any form of extreme human behavior that leaves victims on one or both sides? How exactly is one supposed to be objective when reporting on these issues?
If the truth hurts your feelings, it’s just too bad. There are people with hurt bodies and dead relatives, or dead children. Calling Glenn or Max “biased,” or any other kind of perceived pejorative no longer works, as those traits are readily welcomed by the rest of us who’ve been starving for some truth. And as you may know, the truth is not a coin. It doesn’t have two sides. It’s just the truth.
@Ken Yard: Who cares? I can remember singing along to a hit single by Barry McGuire when I was in junior high that had a line in it that went,
“And even the Jordan River’s got bodies floating”
This has been going on my whole life, and I’m a boomer. The time for nitpicking someone’s prose for “objective reporting” is long gone, the time is only to advocate an end to the violence, an end to the siege, and human dignity for all the parties involved. If you can’t get behind the notion that destroying Gaza periodically at the cost of 2000 souls every time is the wrong way to go, then who the fuck cares whether it’s “objective reporting”?
It does not matter whether Greenwald and Blumenthal were born Jewish it is their bias that is important.
They are clearly biased against Israel!
No guesswork here they are opponents of all things Israel including its existence.
Do they have a right to espouse these views of course.
But here is the rub, are YOU doing the best you can for both the Palestinians and Israel’s by taking their word as the word of the gospel?
Have you read in depth what all sides have to say, so you can have a truly informed opinion?
If the writer is pro-Israel do you immediately say propaganda but never say it when its pro-Palestinian or visa versa?
Are you pre-disposed to only read people you agree with on Israel/Palestinian struggles?
Are you as invested in all the struggles in this region, the 100,000s of deaths as you are in the P/I struggle and if not why?
We all like to be validated in our beliefs and so it is natural to believe everything you read that agrees with your view.
But what if your view is skewed or maybe not all you believe is correct or maybe you just haven’t read enough to put all the blame on one side or the other.
I sure as heck have learned that neither Israel nor the Palestinians are always right or wrong.
My late dad always said there are three sides to every story – in this case the Palestinians and the Israeli each have a narrative – however the truth the third side lies somewhere in the middle.
Funny thing about the middle its also the place compromise lies.
I hope these two can find the middle and compromise so all can move forward with two states and two thriving economies.
To think you can destroy Israel is a fools errand – or think you can keep the Palestinians in their place is equally foolhardy.
Pointing fingers in either direction won’t work.
Working for peace through compromise makes the most sense!
What a lovely Hallmark card! You should be writing those extemporaneous speeches beauty contestants are asked to make regarding the important global issues!
Mona – Actually my daughter is the gifted card writer (only it was alternative greeting cards) not Hallmark but was with AG.
I am sorry you didn’t get what I said but as always you are entitled to be snarky (sort of like writing alternative greeting cards – only funny).
Your treacly tripe is unworthy of the evil and carnage done to the victims in Gaza.
– “They are clearly biased against Israel!”
You know, I was thinking that they were two writers completely without an opinion on Israel, but now that you mention it, I think you are correct. What was your first clue?
– “No guesswork here they are opponents of all things Israel including its existence.”
Well, if you ask most moral human beings, if they are in favour of the existence of an Israel that only can exist through the perpetual slavery of Palestinians, what do you think they would answer? Do some guesswork.
JLocke – I can only go by the US polling of Israel support – no guesswork needed – which is 80/20 for Israel in all the latest poles.
It is however interesting that was the only thing you took away from my post.
I do agree Israel has faults and I could provide you a list but perpetual slavery is not one – we can agree to disagree.
Is is and always will be a socialistic democracy – and it works pretty well for all its citizens.
Now restrictive travel and the embargo – now there are two issues that need to be solved.
Also need to solve the rockets fired into Israel.
BTW I would also like to see Hamas treat their citizens better – maybe set-up a socialistic democracy.
I do know you disagree with me on all things M-E – but I wish you a good day anyway
Ok — please do so.
Yes, and apartheid South Africa worked “pretty well” for white South Afrikaaners.
Your concern no doubt touches them deeply. In the meantime, what about these items:
1. Freedom of movement of Palestinians in and out of the Gaza Strip.
2. Unlimited import and export of supplies and goods, including by land, sea and air.
3. Unrestricted use of the Gaza seaport.
4. All those walls, barbed wire fences, entrance/exit cages and sniper towers are coming down, right?
treacly tripe with barf on it
Well, the jewish ones, anyway.
but then jewish and Arab Israelis agree to disagree – democracy!
Really? All things Israel. If you read Greenwald, you’d see he’s also against violence from Saudi Arabia. There’s really no rocket science to any of this, and you don’t need to invent secret motivations. There are some people who generally stand with the weak in their conflicts with the powerful, who aren’t swayed very much by financial self-interest, and who are against imperialistic and colonialist projects. They hate double standards and hypocrisy.
BTW, the rest of your argument is called a Golden Mean Fallacy. Without specifics, it can be rejected out of hand.
Greenwald is the naif here. One could have conducted interviews with the residents of Tokyo (firebombing, 200,000 dead), Frankfurt, Berlin, Hamburg, Dresden (but not Hiroshima or Nagasaki since they were all cinders) and gotten the same reaction. What is so interesting here is two Jews talking about how bad their co-religionists are, in a vacuum.
If they had undertaken a survery of war zones and interviewed people in all of them, ok, it would be a document about the pain. But Gaza is not an occupied territory, it is in a war delcared to eviscerate the world’s only Jewish state, they’ve turned down 3 state offers and stared 4 wars. Too bad fellas.
– “What is so interesting here is two Jews talking about how bad their co-religionists”
You think Blumenthal and Greenwald are criticizing,…Judaism? You think they’re blaming their own religion for the acts of the Israeli government? What gave you that impression?
– “But Gaza is not an occupied territory”
In what universe?
…pro tip, try to stay within the bounds of reality, or your comments might get relegated to the realm of propaganda.
Whew, glad to hear that. Then I expect tomorrow this will all happen:
1. Freedom of movement of Palestinians in and out of the Gaza Strip.
2. Unlimited import and export of supplies and goods, including by land, sea and air.
3. Unrestricted use of the Gaza seaport.
4. All those walls, barbed wire fences, entrance/exit cages and sniper towers are coming down, right?
What, then, is your definition of occupied territory?
I take it you’re trying to apply a “just war” argument to explain away Israeli atrocities. The argument collapses under minimal scrutiny. Nothing about the situation in the Palestinian territories could be considered just. For one, while Israel’s right to “defend” itself is widely acknowledged, the Palestinian right to resist is not.
What do you mean by “co-religionsists? What’s my religion, and what’s your basis for believing you know it?
Exactly. I see a lot of conflation in these comments about what “Jewish” is.
Jews are first and foremost members of an ethnic group. The members of this ethnic group are not necessarily, and do not have to be, members of the Jewish faith.
What’s my religion, and what’s your basis for believing you know it?
His Magic 8-Ball. He asked if you were Jewish and it answered:
Near as I can tell, Glenn’s religion involves Yoga and doges. (Says she who just finished a yoga routine and really likes the cat pose.)
Yehuda Shaul – Breaking the Silence – Seattle, Nov 14, 2013
Yehuda Shaul – “Playing defence is a small part of the story…maintaining absolute military control over the Palestinians”
– ”there is no exit strategy”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxHE4KrLvj0
“illogic is the perfect logic”
– “Our Harsh Logic
As the soldiers show in vivid and immediate detail, even the key terms of IDF policy—“preventing terror,” “separating populations,” “preserving normal Palestinian life,” and “law enforcement”— in fact mean precisely the opposite on the ground: spreading fear and subjugation, accelerating Jewish settlement and the acquisition of Palestinian land, crippling all political and social life, and ultimately thwarting any possibility of independence.”
http://international.ucla.edu/cnes/podcast/135975
Below, our newest hasbara-ist, hmp49, shows an interest in military opinions. About Israel’s slaughter and obliteration in Gaza last summer s/he refers to a U.S. general and declares:
In 1956 another general, an Israeli one by the name of Moshe Dayan, was called upon to eulogize an Israeli soldier shot by Gazans. This is what Dayan — who is said to have known a thing or two about warfare — decreed, my emphasis:
Dayan’s clear-eyed — and monstrous — assessment if correct. No people would passively accept what the Zionist terrorists did to the Palestinians.
But Zionists have been doing this to Palestinians now for not just eight years, but for nearly seven decades. The justified resistance to Zionist atrocities is met with brutal, murderous and overwhelming force. Not with the oppressor making amends to the people it has long been oppressing.
@hmp49
I am Jewish and proud of it, and my wife and I are raising our children to be Jewish and proud of it. And if our children one day have the moral courage of Jewish men like Glenn Greenwald and Max Blumenthal, I’ll be very proud of that too.
Fixed it.
Not sure I see the point of your deletion of the word “Jewish.” Are you suggesting they aren’t Jewish, or that their Jewishness is irrelevant, or something else? In any event, they are Jewish, and it’s relevant to me.
I’m suggesting that regardless of their religion or gene pool they are good people who do happen to be men.
Your pride in their Jewishness is completely tribal. Dot you feel kinship with the IDF who shoot anything that moves?
@Mona
I vaguely remember some clownhole declaring Glenn wasn’t Jewish. Other than that I don’t think Glenn has ever mentioned his birthright in anything other than passing comment.
Man, you are a fucking asshole.
And? He certainly doesn’t deny it.
@nuf said
I do, in fact, feel kinship with the soldiers of the IDF. It pains me greatly, but I do.
Tribalism is not all bad, and to some degree it is inherent in human nature. The important thing, I think, is to always recognize the humanity of members of other tribes. GG and Blumenthal are, in my view, outstanding at this. I am working on it.
@Mona “And? He certainly doesn’t deny it.”
It is a do-not-care issue; that is the point I was trying to make.
Glenn is not playing Mario Cart for the Jewish Team.
The Jewish Team is responsible for Gaza. After reading today’s article, taking any pride in that team is a bit like reminding us Benito made the trains run on time.
“a strain of Jewish activism and ethics ” as opposed to the distinctly British strain of activism and ethics or the completely different American strain of activism and ethics? Please.
@Barncat
I actually lol. Appreciate the rise.
Yes. http://www.tikkun.org/nextgen/an-american-jewish-identity-crisis
nuf, some Zionist shill here has denied that Glenn and Max are Jewish. They are, in fact, Jewish. And if Gator thinks Jews should be proud of them I can understand that — Glenn and Max represent a strain of Jewish activism and ethics that I’ve long been happy to see at work in American history. Indeed, I’ve seen Max call Jewish people to a decent prophetic tradition, basically the one I’m referring to.
A Zionist propagandist below makes claims about Hamas and its demands made during Israel’s obscene slaughter of Gaza last summer. I reproduce an Open Letter drafted during the bombardment by members of Gazan civil society and issued to the world, in which they endorse basically the same demands Hamas had made and reject the Egyptian brokering. Emphasis is mine.
___________________________________
As academics, public figures and activists witnessing the intended genocide of 1.8 million Palestinians living in the Gaza Strip, we call for a ceasefire with Israel only if conditioned on an end to the blockade and the restoration of basic freedoms that have been denied to the people for more than seven years.
Our foremost concerns are not only the health and safety of the people in our communities, but also the quality of their lives – their ability to live free of fear of imprisonment without due process, to support their families through gainful employment, and to travel to visit their relatives and further their education.
These are fundamental human aspirations that have been severely limited for the Palestinian people for more than 47 years, but that have been particularly deprived from residents of Gaza since 2007. We have been pushed beyond the limits of what a normal person can be expected to endure.
A living death
Charges in the media and by politicians of various stripes that accuse Hamas of ordering Gaza residents to resist evacuation orders, and thus use them as human shields, are untrue. With temporary shelters full and the indiscriminate Israeli shelling, there is literally no place that is safe in Gaza.
Likewise, Hamas represented the sentiment of the vast majority of residents when it rejected the unilateral ceasefire proposed by Egypt and Israel without consulting anyone in Gaza. We share the broadly held public sentiment that it is unacceptable to merely return to the status quo – in which Israel strictly limits travel in and out of the Gaza Strip, controls the supplies that come in (including a ban on most construction materials), and prohibits virtually all exports, thus crippling the economy and triggering one of the highest poverty and unemployment rates in the Arab world.
To do so would mean a return to a living death.
Unfortunately, past experience has shown that the Israeli government repeatedly reneges on promises for further negotiations, as well as on its commitments to reform.
Likewise, the international community has demonstrated no political will to enforce these pledges. Therefore, we call for a ceasefire only when negotiated conditions result in the following:
Freedom of movement of Palestinians in and out of the Gaza Strip.
Unlimited import and export of supplies and goods, including by land, sea and air.
Unrestricted use of the Gaza seaport.
Monitoring and enforcement of these agreements by a body appointed by the United Nations, with appropriate security measures.
Each of these expectations is taken for granted by most countries, and it is time for the Palestinians of Gaza to be accorded the human rights they deserve.
Signatures:
Akram Habeeb, Assistant Professor of American Literature, Islamic University of Gaza (IUG)
Mona El-Farra, Vice President and Health Chair of the Palestinian Red Crescent Society
Ramy Abdu PhD, Chairman of the Euro-mid Observer
Abdullah Alsaafin, Palestinian Writer/journalist
Ali Alnazli, Businessman
Adel Awadallah, Head of the Scientific Research Council
Hanine Hassan, Graduate Research Assistant
Sheren Awad, Journalist
Yahia Al-Sarraj, Associate Professor of Transportation, IUG
Tawfik Abu Shomar, Writer and political analyst
Hasan Owda, Businessman
Ibrahim AlYazji, Businessman
Walid Al Husari, Chair, Gaza Chamber of Commerce
Nael Almasri, Dentist
Wael El-Mabhouh, Political researcher
Rami Jundi, Political researcher
Ashraf Mashharawi, Filmmaker
Mohammad Alsawaf, Journalist
Hasan Abdo, Writer and political analyst
Kamal El Shaer, Political researcher
Omar Ferwana, Dean of Medicine Faculty, IUG
Iyad I. Al-Qarra, Journalist, Palestine newspaper
Musheir El-Farra, Palestinian activist and author
Khalil Namrouti, Associate Professor in Economics, IUG
Moein Rajab, Professor in Economics, Al-Azhar University – Gaza
Basil Nasser, Planning advisor
Hani Albasoos, Associate Professor in Political Science, IUG
Arafat Hilles, Assistant Professor, Al-Quds Open University
Imad Falouji, Head of Adam Center for Dialogue of Civilizations
Moin Naim, Writer and political analyst
Yousri Alghoul, Author
Mohammad Jayyab, Editor of Gaza Journal of Economics
Mousa Lubbad, Lecturer in Finance, Al-Aqsa University
Iskandar Nashwan, Assistant Professor in Accounting, Al-Aqsa University
Shadi AlBarqouni, Graduate Research Assistant
Adnan Abu Amer, Head of Political Department, Al-Umma University
Wael Al Sarraj, Assistant Professor in Computer Science, IUG
Said Namrouti, Lecturer in Human Resource Management, IUG
Khaled Al-Hallaq, Assistant Professor in Civil Engineering, IUG
Asad Asad, Vice Chancellor for Administrative Affairs, IUG
Hazem Alhusari, Lecturer in Finance, Al-Aqsa University
Shadi AlBarqouni, Graduate Research Assistant
Deya’a Kahlout, Journalist, Al-Araby newspaper
Raed Salha, Assistant Professor in Geography, IUG
Sameeh Alhadad, Businessman
Tarek M. Eslim, CEO, Altariq Systems and Projects
Sami Almalfouh PhD, Senior engineer
Fayed Abushammalah, Journalist
Fadel Naeim, Chairman of Palestine Physicians Syndicate
Zeyad Al-Sahhar, Associate Professor in Physics , Al-Aqsa University
Iyad Abu Hjayer, Director, Palestinian Center for Democracy and Conflict Resolution
Wael Al-Daya, Associate Professor in Finance, IUG
Younis Eljarou, Head of the Red Crescent Society for the Gaza Strip
Donia ElAmal Ismail, Head of the Creative Women Association
Zeinab Alghonemi, Head of Women for Legal Consulting Association
Amjad AlShawa, Palestinian Nongovernmental Organizations Network (PNGO)
Mohsen Abo Ramadan, Head of Palestinian Nongovernmental Organziations Network (PNGO)
Abed Alhameed Mortaja, Assistant Professor of Linguistics, IUG
Talal Abo Shawesh , Head of Afaq Jadeeda Association
Zohair Barzaq, Red Crescent Society for the Gaza Strip
Marwan Alsabh, Red Crescent Society for the Gaza Strip
Ghassan Matar, Red Crescent Society for the Gaza Strip
Rania Lozon, Writer
Ashraf Saqer, IT Specialist
Samir AlMishal, Mishal Cultural Centre
Jamila Sarhan, Independant Commission for Human Rights
Jalal Arafat, Union of Agricultrual Work Committees
Khalil Abu Shammala, Aldameer Association for Human Rights
Jamila Dalloul, Association Head of Jothor ElZaiton
Maha Abo Zour, Psychologist
Psychologist Ferdous Alkatari
Yousef Awadallah, Health Work Committee
Yousef Alswaiti, Al-Awda Hospital Director
Taysir Alsoltan, Head of Health Work Committees
Taghreed Jomaa, Union of Palestinian Women’s Committees
Imad Ifranji, Journalist, Alquds TV
Jehal Alaklouk, Activist
Adel Alborbar, Boycott Committee
Hatem AbuShaban, Board of Trustees of Al-Azhar University – Gaza
Saleh Zaqout, Secretary of the Red Crescent Society for the Gaza Strip
Mohammed Alsaqqa, Lawyer
Nihad Alsheikh Khalil, Professor of Modern and Contemporary History, IUG
Mohsen Alafranji, Lecturer at Media Department, IUG
Nedal Farid, Dean of Business Faculty, Al-Aqsa University
Salem Helles, Dean of Commerce Faculty, IUG
Ahmad Ali PhD, Economic Analysis
Raed M. Zourob PhD, Head of the Department of Preventive Medicine, Ministry of Health
Mosheer Amer, Professor of Lingusitics, IUG
Moheeb Abu Alqumboz, Lecturer
Fatma Mukhalalati, Supreme Court judge
Fahmi Alnajjar, Supreme Court judge
Thanks, Mona for posting this. Not that any of the apologists for Israel’s war crimes will bother to read it. And why should they? After all, they are the master race…er, god’s chosen people (as though there was a difference) and the Palestinians are Untermenschen… er, to quote a member of the Israeli Cabinet, animals.
Over the weekend I finally watched the Israeli documentary, The Gatekeepers. Six former Shin Bet directors are interviewed about their tenure at the agency and their views of Palestinian actions and grievances, as well as Israeli policy vis-a-vis the same. These smart, hardened men are brutally realistic about what the actual problems are and how the government fails to grapple with reality.
One of these former directors made an appeal to Clausewitz, and then said with no apparent irony at all: “He was clever even though he wasn’t a Jew.”
Well.
Hamas always gives bogus casualty figures to the UN, which the UN parrots. In 2008, Hamas made similar claims about casualties being 70-80% civilians After the 24/7 news cycle passes. Hamas reveals true casualty figures, in response to the families of their “martyrs” who demand recognition. Note that the news source, AFP (Agence France-Presse) is anything but a Hasbara tool:
“Hamas admits higher casualties in Gaza war
(AFP) / 1 November 2010
GAZA CITY, Palestinian Territories — A senior Hamas official admitted on Monday that up to 300 fighters were killed in the 2008-2009 Gaza war after the Islamist group initially put the toll at 48.”
…snip
“In addition to them, between 200 and 300 fighters from the Al-Qassam Brigades (Hamas’s armed wing) and another 150 security forces were martyred.”
His numbers roughly match the 709 “terror operatives” the Israeli military said it had killed during the fighting, which included members of the Hamas-run police force that has patrolled Gaza since the group seized power in 2007.
The military has said the overall Palestinian death toll was 1,166.
http://www.khaleejtimes.com/displayarticle.asp?xfile=data/middleeast/2010/November/middleeast_November13.xml§ion=middleeast&col=
Your hasbara is going to fail for one reason in particular: Twitter. Last year, many of us saw — in near real time– pictures of dead, bloody, maimed men women and babies — babies — photographs taken often by Gazan medical personnel and uploaded to Twitter. We saw and see the pictures of the bombed out shell that Israel made of Gaza. We see the obscenely mangled corpse of little boy on the Gazan beach as an adult carries another of the boys to shelter.
So, many of us aren’t terribly interested in Zionist disputations of the UN’s figures. At all. It is in fact a rather obscene thing you are doing.
You saw the same pictures, including pictures from Syria and prior conflicts, presented over and over again, and the same pictures on a tight 24/7 loop on CNN.
Apparently, you are under the delusion that babies never die except when Israel is involved. The US killed tens of thousands of Iraqi babies, but there were no photos, no 24/7 coverage. Estimates of civilians killed by the US in Iraq range between 123,000 and 600,000 (British Medical Journal Lancet is responsible for the 600,000 figure).
You are blissfully unaware that Israel has the most restrictive rules of engagement in urban warfare of any country in the world, an accordingly accepts more of their own casualties as a result than any other country would accept. An example is the battle of Fallujah, when the US attempted to follow Israeli rules of engagement to keep the civilian casulties lower. It was a disaster, with the US casualty count approaching “catastrophic levels” In the end, the US resorted to far more artillery and airpower, lowering their own casualties while dramatically increasing civilian casualties.
http://www.military.com/NewContent/1,13190,NI_0105_Fallujah-P1,00.html
I’ve already given General Dempsey’s evaluation (“I actually do think that Israel went to extraordinary lengths to limit collateral damage and civilian casualties”), although I neglected to mention he sent a Pentagon team to study Israeli methods of reducing civilian casualties:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/11/06/us-israel-usa-gaza-idUSKBN0IQ2LH20141106
It must be so comforting for you to be able to ignore reality by pulling an invisibility cloak over your head and mumbling “hasbara hasbara hasbara” But the reality is the IDF is the most moral army in the world, and their only real problem is they do a very poor job of getting the facts out.
That the US is guilty of war crimes is beside the point here. In fact, the US is, and so is Israel, and so is the UK, and so, per the UN, is Hamas. The issue here is that the US, UK and Israel hold themselves up as something special, whereas in reality they are no better than those they detest, and in some respects, arguably worse.
How many Hamas aircraft dropped bombs on Israeli schools?
How many self propelled guns lobbed shells into Israeli towns from Gaza?
How many Hamas tanks fired on Israeli civilians?
How many Israelis wounded in the fighting were unable to receive adequate medical attention?
Exactly right. And you know who often criticized the sanitized reporting of the carnage in Iraq? Glenn Greenwald.
That would be hilarious if it were not so obscenely wrong. Israel uses Palestinian civilians as human shields and commits various other war crimes on a routine basis.
Go ahead: deny it, and/or ask me for documentation. I’ll start a whole new thread on the crimes of the IDF. You know, The Most Moral Army in the World™ (grabbing puke pail)
Uh, as a side note, the US politicians, military and media responsible for “sanitizing” our mainstream media of the death and destruction we cause (and even our own casualties) also all happen to be defenders of Israel… and in no small part, that death and destruction we cause is sought and encouraged by Israeli leaders, and pro-Israel “journalists”, lobbyists, pundits, donors… and the sanitization is an intentional tactic to maintain our ability to cause death and destruction by keeping enough of our citizens ignorant and supportive.
So, while you are railing against the effect caused by your own team, just know that I fully support airing the horrors of the reality we create even while disagreeing with your two wrongs make a right attempted argument.
“It is in fact a rather obscene thing you are doing.”
Yes, to tell the truth, EVEN ACCORDING TO HAMAS, is an obscene thing to do when it conflicts with your preconceived notions.
Pitiful.
I react to you as I do with individuals who, when the topic is the horror of the Holocaust, are oddly and peculiarly only interested in whether 6 million Jews were really slaughtered, or whether was it “only” 4 million, or maybe even only 2 million. This, you see, is a matter of determining “the truth.”
– “Hamas always gives bogus casualty figures to the UN, which the UN parrots.”
You do know we are talking about the illegal killing of innocent people, right? One is too many.
– “Israeli Soldiers Interviewed: Told To Shoot To Kill… Everyone
There’s a group in Israel called “Breaking The Silence,” what they do is interview different soldiers and officers in the Israeli Defense Forces after an operation to try to determine what happened and if they followed the rules of war. During their interview of 100 IDF soldiers who were involved in Operation Protective Edge the group learned that the IDF forces were told explicitly to shoot to kill, even if it they killed civilians.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kugGQZMI7wI
Thank you Glenn and Max. Two Jewish-Americans regularly derided as “self-hating” or antisemitic. That neither of you appears to give a rat’s patooty about this calumny is to your credit.
How really unfortunate that Israel and its hardcore Zionist defenders have all but diluted the charge of antisemitism beyond it’s retaining any potency. Dangerous, that.
“Two Jewish-Americans regularly derided as “self-hating” or antisemitic”
no, two people with Jewish ancestors who have no connection to the Jewish people. To the contrary, their purported “Jewishness” gives them unwarranted credibility.
I don’t know about Max, but Glenn was born of a Jewish mother and father. He’s Jewish. Hitler would certainly think so.
Would Glenn Greenwald allow Hitler to define his identity? Read what I wrote:
” two people with Jewish ancestors who have no connection to the Jewish people”
Ask either to what degree having Jewish ancestors affects their lives and their relation to the Jewish people/
Both men are Jewish. And they are so whether you think they are ideologically correct Jews or not. Hitler would have tossed them and their families into ovens with the rest of the Jews he slaughtered.
Stop. You are being obscene.
The Jews were not alone in their horror, as Israel would have us believe today. Hitler tossed more non-Jews than Jews into the camps. That doesn’t diminish the horror the Jews of Europe experienced.
When Israel uses 6 million dead, never forget to justify its military responses, a Russian friend just shakes his head and says, “Hitler killed 20 million Russians.”
hmp49 – “To the contrary, their purported “Jewishness” gives them unwarranted credibility.”
– Hi! I’m hmp49! I’m not a racist! I just determine people’s credibility based on their religion, or if that fails..their “purported” religion!!
– I’m not a bigot, I have friends who are Zoroastrians!!!
“. According to the U.N., at least 2,104 Gazans were killed — 1,462 of whom (69 percent) were civilians, including 495 children. ”
No, not “according to the UN” according to Hamas, as parroted by the UN.
Abbas understands who was responsible for the level of casualties:
“Several Egyptian mediated cease-fire attempts during the conflict failed. Hamas eventually accepted almost the same truce offered at the beginning.
“It was possible for us to avoid all of that, 2,000 martyrs, 10,000 injured, 50,000 houses (destroyed),” Abbas told Palestine TV in remarks broadcast Friday. He said Hamas had insisted on discussing demands first before ending the war, which only served to prolong the violence.”
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/08/29/palestinian-leader-says-hamas-caused-prolonged-war/14808007/
<blockquote.“Several Egyptian mediated cease-fire attempts during the conflict failed. Hamas eventually accepted almost the same truce offered at the beginning.
The people of Gaza do not accept Egyptian proposals made in no consultation with them. The Gazan people supported Hamas’ wholly reasonable demands. The Gazan people largely reject Abbas, who is a lackey of Israel and making a lot of money being that.
That you think Israel was justified in slaughtering several thousand of the people it oppresses and keeps locked in an open air prison — all because they demand an end to their oppression — says something very ugly about you..
Blockquote fail: these words are hmp49’s quote of Abbas: “Several Egyptian mediated cease-fire attempts during the conflict failed. Hamas eventually accepted almost the same truce offered at the beginning.”
The rest are my words.
Israel didn’t “Slaughter thousands of people,” Israel was defending itself from a war Hamas chose to start, a war during which they targeted civilians including thousands of civilians at at international airport:
“A statement from the Palestinian armed group said: “At 11:45am (08:45 GMT), the Qassam Brigades bombarded Ben Gurion airport with three M75 rockets”.”
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/07/rockets-gaza-tel-aviv-airport-201472592112287992.html
M75 rockets are not “harmless bottle rockets,” they carry 380lb explosive payloads:
http://militaryedge.org/armaments/fajr-5/
While Iron Dome was largely successful in intercepting these rockets, Israel could not afford to wait for one of them to hit the civilian airport, or a Tel Aviv highrise. The first duty of every nation is to defend its citizens.
You seem to be blissfully unaware of Hamas initiating and continuing to commit war crimes against both the Israelis and the Palestinians. In fact, The Palestinians managed to kill more of their own people withe their “harmless bottle rockets” than they managed to kill Israeli civilians. From Amnesty International:
“Palestinian armed groups killed civilians on both sides in attacks amounting to war crimes”
“In the deadliest incident believed to have been caused by a Palestinian attack, 11 children were among 13 Palestinian civilians killed when a projectile fired from within the Gaza Strip landed in the al-Shati refugee camp.”
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/03/palestinian-armed-groups-killed-civilians-on-both-sides-in-2014-gaza-conflict/
You fundamentally fail to understand the reality of the situation. Zionist terrorists assisted Jewish colonists and settlers in taking over and expelling Arabs from their homes, lands and villages, culminating in violent ethnic cleansing in ’48 and onward.
Gazans, including groups such as Hamas, are resisting their oppressor. They are not always dainty about it, any more than The African National Congress or the Irish Republican Army were. Indeed, there was a time when Hamas embraced suicide bombings. (And the ANC did atrocities like “necklacing” while the IRA bombed department stores.)
Israel is founded in ethnic cleansing and land theft, compounded every year by maintaining its victims in an apartheid condition in Gaza.
Grasp this: Zionists are not the victims. They are the victimizers.
@ Mona
He can’t “grasp” anything Mona because he’s a Zionist and/or Jewish Supremacist. No different than a Nazi, except in degree, and no different than a former Afrikaner National Party or Broederbond member.
The world will be a better place when he and his brand of ethnic supremacism has been relegated to the pages of human history.
Yup. I’ve learned from long engagement with militant Zionists the absolute necessity of continually dragging them back to the central fact that they are not the victims.
A detailed rundown of the “armed conflict short of war” that Israel considers itself party to:
– “This legal ambiguity has been deployed by Israeli officials to argue that the situation in Gaza is sui generis, and therefore not regulated by traditional laws of armed conflict. Instead, Israel has claimed the right to wage war against the population while simultaneously denying combatant status to Palestinian fighters. The denial of such status allowed Israel to criminalize all use of force—including defensive operations and those targeting Israeli soldiers and military objects. Moreover, Israel categorized all fighters in Gaza as civilians who are directly participating in hostilities, rather than as combatants who have the right to kill to achieve a military advantage. As such, Israel denied captured Palestinian fighters the designation as prisoners of war, or POWs. At the same time, Israel accreted to itself the “right” to engage in assassination operations under the cover of war.
Until September 2001, the US government publicly rejected Israel’s attempts to reinterpret the laws of war. Following Al-Qaeda’s attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, however, the Bush administration emulated Israel’s novel approach and integrated similar arguments and tactics into the lexicon of the U.S.’s global “war on terror.” Those approaches continue to be advanced by the Obama administration in its drone warfare and targeted killing policy. This background helps explain the lack of condemnation of Israel’s unprecedented and unlawful rules of engagement in 2014.”
http://reviews.jadaliyya.com/pages/index/22093/permission-to-kill-in-gaza
This is also interesting. The Israeli court finds that the Israeli army can simultaneously deny the local inhabitants the right to govern themselves while denying them the right to resist the occupation. Because the Israeli conquest of the territory has put Israel in “proximity” to the occupied people. And proximity trumps everything else apparently.
To put this in a WWII perspective, everything the Nazis did to on the territories they conquered was OK, because the conquest put the Nazis in “proximity” to the population they conquered.
(Who would have thought Auschwitz would pass Israeli supreme court scrutiny!!)
– “Notably, since 2001 Israel’s High Court has insisted that it can apply both the law of occupation to govern the Occupied Territory as well as the law of armed conflict (LOAC) to quell unrest. (Can’an v. IDF Military Commander). By 2005, they find that LOAC supersedes Occupation Law. (Public Committee Against Torture in Israel v. The Government of Israel). This means that it can deny Palestinians the right to govern themselves and simultaneously use military force to thwart their resistance to military rule. Israel’s High Court has been in lockstep with its Government in maintaining a military occupation and deeming it a war against terror.
Context here is consequential. The Gaza Strip is not proximate to Israel by random fortune- but because Israel established itself in Mandate Palestine by war and literally removed and dispossessed its native Palestinian inhabitants. This conquest remains contested by Palestinians and that is the root source of ongoing conflict. What Schmitt and Merriam swiftly disregard as proximate asymmetric violence is in fact the function of ongoing and unresolved claims over Israel’s authoritative jurisdiction. Obscuring this context risks creating a new body of law intended to protect a power’s colonial holdings as it gives the impression that Israel is using force to defend itself when, in fact, it is using force to squash Palestinian claims and militarily resolve the dispute over its control. Simultaneously, Israel criminalizes all Palestinian use of force in response, or otherwise, as terroristic. The authors in/advertently reify this false and counterproductive narrative without scrutiny.”
http://reviews.jadaliyya.com/pages/index/21929/if-israeli-tactics-in-gaza-are-legal-no-one-is-saf
I’ve long thought the ‘Israelification of America’ was an accurate title for things at present.
But it’s really just plain old Fascism.
These articles fail to make sense on a lot of levels. First, is there an occupation or not? If so, then by definition the local population does not govern themselves. If not, then where is the justification for combatant status? Since Israel isn’t signatory to the 1st Additional Protocol of 1977 (AP1), this cannot be a CARS conflict, and that means that unless the author is arguing that Gaza is a sovereign state signatory to the Geneva Conventions, which Gaza is not, the conflict is an international armed conflict by virtue of occupation. Otherwise, the conflict is non-international, and no one has combatant status.
My understanding is that it is indeed an occupation — That is part of what makes many Israeli actions not legal under IHL, and why IHL applies (or LOAC if you’d rather use that term). As an occupation, the Geneva Conventions apply in their entirety, which means combatant status would exist, but as an occupation, by definition, the Gaza strip is governed by its occupiers.
For some reason the “Jewish state” situation reminds me of the Trump circus:
– ““We’ve gone from 44% to 27% among Hispanic voters, for a reason. You’ll never convince me that it hasn’t been about the way that we’ve handled this issue,” South Carolina Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham said in a telephone interview with CNN on Tuesday.
“Mitt Romney showed a lot of political courage by saying that (his comment about) ‘self-deportation’ was a mistake, and now here we have Donald Trump casting 11 million people in a very derogatory manner. That’s a problem,” said Graham, who is also seeking the GOP presidential nomination. “
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2015/07/08/morning-plum-trump-gives-republicans-the-immigration-mess-they-could-have-easily-avoided/
I think perhaps Israel is an extreme example of, and Trump is a celebrity symptom of, our universal uneasiness with change.
It’s human, it’s natural, but it’s stupid to think that in areas of mass migration, immigration, birth, refugees, economic dislocation (in other words, everywhere, over time),
…that demographics are going to stay the same.
Of course, sooner or later, more Americans are going to be of non-European descent, more will speak Spanish, black presidents will be a common occurrence, Muslims won’t be a rarity.
The enemy race of the day will be the Swiss with their clockwork cybernetic bodies, or the breakaway Lunar cheese manufacturing colonists.
But people are scared of change, they want it to happen in a time scale that is imperceptible to the human lifespan. But whether it’s the Black majority areas of the south US, or the Spanish speakers of California, or even Israel which in many Americans’ minds is a “Fortress of Jewitude”, life finds a way, bigots die, racists die, and the people who are born, are born into a new reality, where hatred and racism are replaced with…well new hatreds and racisms, but that is another story.
1462 Palestinian civilians killed for SIX Israeli ‘civilians’ killed.
Israeli operatives once again manage to convince Congress to protect Israel First, America later …
Boycott
Divest
Sanction
tell your friends.
Religions and nationalities train us to NOT see that all people belong to the same family.
The devotion to “exceptionalism” is behind every ugly, vicious, murderous nation and religion.
Ask yourself –
“Am I related to these criminals and their victims?”
and
“How am I contributing to this horror?”
because, whether you admit it or not,
you and I are part of the problem and we must individually take responsibility for these horrors
because putting the blame on others is a way of disconnecting from the victims.
The LEAST we can do is to repudiate these political predators who,
in order to gain power,
encourage the slaughter of our family members.
The Congress of the faking USA has repeatedly given UNANIMOUS support to the slaughtering.
A serious reprimand is needed.
It’s one sided don’t waist time on reading it. Israel took action in Gaza after the Hamas killed tree young man and fired many missiles to civilan population.
Says the person that didn’t read it.
Thank you Glenn. Thank you Max. You two are wonderful, wonderful people. Thank you for everything you do.
Difficult work. Thanks for posting about the book, the war against Gaza. If you want to see just one of the debris fields in Gaza, it is the third picture down in this post.
http://tomthumbsgallery.com/2014/12/26/a-witness-against-war-post-1-in-a-series/
The debris field drawing is an interpretation of a photo from the Guardian Weekly which was trying to capture the devastation of Gaza.I left out many details and left you the shadows.
Tribalism, as GG sometimes observes, is a powerful force. I am heartened and inspired by Blumenthal’s ability to overcome it.
I note Blumenthal was amusingly deemed a “Jewish anti-semite” by the Simon Wiesenthal Center, in part due to book chapter titles that appeared to analogize Israel to Nazi Germany. As longtime GG comment-readers know, I tend to disapprove of such analogies, but I give Blumenthal a pass because he’s in the, you know, tribe.
– “Blumenthal was amusingly deemed a “Jewish anti-semite” by the Simon Wiesenthal Center”
I know how he feels, when I criticize neo-nazis, I open myself up to being attacked as a “self-hating aryan”!!!
I’m looking at the list of “anti-Semites” the Simon Wiesenthal Center came up with. The United Church of Canada makes the list (and ahead of Blumenthal, that must hurt his ego!!!)
http://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/Jewish-Features/Wiesenthal-releases-Top-Ten-2013-anti-Semiticanti-Israel-slurs-list-336564
Apparently the Church shouldn’t endorse BDS because Israel is:
– “the only Middle East state that guarantees full religious freedom and protection to all faiths.”
I think we can see from the drone videos showing the destruction in Gaza, just how protected the non-Jews are.
Only “appeared”? Six dead Israeli civilians vs 1462 dead Palestinian civilians.
Sounds as “German” as you could get; 243 Palestinian lives for every Jewish life.
yeah, but Jews are chosen so it’s not their fault …
Golda Meir
“Six dead Israeli civilians vs 1462 dead Palestinian civilians.”
It sounds like numbers are important to you.
Six million is a really big number.
Stop with the Holocaust® crap. More non-Jews died in the camps than Jews; 6 million Jews out of 13 million is a telling number.
Hitler and company killed tens of millions. but you would have us worship a particular 6 million. Exceptionalism is not a positive trait for a people but then you guys didn’t choose this, did you …
“Six million is a really big number.”
Pure tribalism generated such a stupid response. This is the Gator of old.
A 243:1 kill ratio is a big number. And at least one of those innocent Israeli citizens was delivering food to front-line Israeli soldiers, making him a true combatant. That brings the kill ratio to 292:1. That is a Nazi-like as you could get.
Well this Mona finds your commentary offensive. The Third Reich made a serious and too successful attempt to murder an entire people — the Jews. To literally wipe them from the face of the earth. This, after two millennia of rather severe persecution by gentiles.
Gator didn’t chose to make this a tribal issue — the Jew haters did.
Well Mona, the Third Reich made a murderous attempt on much of Europe and Asia.
The language used by Israeli officials to describe Palestinians (‘snakes’, etc) is no different than the language used by Nazis to describe Jews. Gaza could rather accurately be described as a concentration camp as it has most of the necessary elements.
I find apologists for Israel to be offensive. You seem to think Gator has come a long way from his exceptionalist position but his quip about 6 million being a big number as a response to the shockingly high death ratio of Palestinians civilians to Israeli civilians is all the proof I need to claim his base, tribal instincts are on display.
Reprisal killings were a hallmark of the Nazi regime; Israel can accurately be described as engaging in behavior similar to the Nazis..
Gator, as you and I have discussed, I generally also disapprove of the Nazi comparison vis-a-vis Israel. However, Max takes those chapter titles from other, usually Israeli sources. That is, the titles are not some gratuitous inflammatory rhetoric original with him.
I thought his titles were genius. It’s a powerful point he’s making. It cause Eric Alterman to have conniptions, which I enjoyed.
And just think about a Jewish guy who uses Nazi analogies the way Max did. It takes a certain kind of confidence to be able to do that. Max just can’t be hurt emotionally. The dude is Superman.
There are two bits of the interview that stick out for me:
– “You look down this endless wall, to your right, and you see a remote-controlled machine gun perched on the wall. That’s the spot and strike system, which is operated by an all-female unit of Israeli soldiers in the Negev Desert, tens of kilometers away, by remote. And what they do is, they watch the buffer zone — this 300-kilometer area that Palestinians are forbidden from entering inside the Gaza Strip. And anyone who enters who they determine to be a “terrorist,” they eliminate with the push of a joystick button from a remote-controlled machine gun. It’s just that dystopian.”
I think that sort of chilling detail is something that we don’t hear/see enough about.
And this:
– “So the real backdrop for this war is 1948, when people were turned into refugees. To put it more simply, and even crudely, if the 1.8 million residents of the Gaza Strip were Jews, the walls would come down tomorrow, and the crisis would end. That’s why they are being occupied and besieged.”
That is a powerful way to describe it, in American terms, imagine, instead of giving all races the vote and freedom, Blacks were herded into ghettos/prisons…well they kind of are, de facto, but not officially. Israel took the apartheid South African route and made it official, one state, with full citizens and “the surplus humanity that cannot be a part of the self-proclaimed Jewish state”.
“this 300-kilometer area that Palestinians are forbidden from entering inside the Gaza Strip”
Oh dear. Charitable as I am, I though this was a transcript typo, so I listened to the recording. It wasn’t: it’s just Max Blumenthal doing what he always does, which is making factually incorrect claims designed to fool the low-info reader.
“300-kilometer area”? If only.
– “I though this was a transcript typo, so I listened to the recording”
Did he really?, he said “kilometre” instead of “metre”?, you really got him there, oh, Lord of Darkness. Imagine, Blumenthal thinking he could bamboozle you into believing the buffer zone is several times bigger than the entire Gaza Strip!!! Most people, hindered with common sense, would consider it perhaps a slip of the tongue, but not you!!!
– “Hamas members patrol an area 300 meters from the Israeli border with Rafah in the southern Gaza Strip,
…The road work has been taking place as close as 150 meters (175 yards) from the border, an area that Israel in the past has made off-limits. In an unusual scene earlier this month, four Israeli military bulldozers entered a buffer zone to remove brush along the fence. Camouflaged Hamas militants approached the area but did not confront them.”
http://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-hamas-in-unspoken-alliance-against-gaza-jihadists/
“Imagine, Blumenthal thinking he could bamboozle you into believing the buffer zone is several times bigger than the entire Gaza Strip!!”
Well, *you* quoted precisely this nonsense of his calling it “chilling” (LOL). Don’t act like you knew it beforehand, you just googled it.
But this is small potatoes compared to what his usual MO is. You should see him retweet invented Sharon quotes.
It was an obvious slip of the tongue – he meant meters” but said “kilometers” because he had just said it in the phrase before.
If that’s all you have, Louise….
Each and everyone one of “Louise’s” comments in this thread have been excellent examples of an, “if that’s all you have” type of empty and senseless blandness. That particular one of hanging onto an obvious misspeak just happened to scream more loudly of the desperation trying to hide behind the mask than the others.
Gelnn hunnee teh BeeDeeEss moovmunt mus bee kepin tehm bizzy ef teh best tehm hazscarist peepholz kan dew iz sen Loowheeze Cyphilis too hold doun teh fart don u no.
It is. I’ve read Goliath twice, and then searched online fore reviews and read some two dozen of them, at least half being (very) negative. Not one can cite any material errors of fact in that book — the closest thing I found was a disputation about *one fact in *one Israeli court case Max discusses. That, in a tome as crammed with fact claims as one could ask for.
Eric Alterman had to concede that Goliath is “technically accurate.” Which means, it is accurate.
Every human makes a mistake here and then, but Max Blumenthal is extremely meticulous about his documentation and accuracy.
As drones move from being only something Obama and the Israelis use to murder people, to being something that anyone can buy, it will help being better able to document what previously was done without the world watching. Perhaps in the future, if the Israelis don’t let reporters in, reporters could get videos of the attacks, and even interview people, remotely, using specialized news gathering drones.
(on the downside, getting away from the paparazzi will be more difficult)
– “Drone footage reveals Gaza destruction – BBC News “
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJN9fnt0rpw
So you’re saying that approx 700 Hamas/Al-Qassam fighters were killed? Were did you get those stats? The IDF? I was under the impression that the death toll included approx 90% civilians.
“I was under the impression that the death toll included approx 90% civilians.”
LOL. When even the extremely anti-Israel Blumenthal/Greenwald Axis isn’t anti-Israel enough.
Actually, that numer was quoted in the introduction, and it comes from the U.N, not from Max or Glenn. I was actually just wondering where the U.N got that figure, as it seems to fly in the face of practically every other source I’ve seen.
Those are clearly just estimates. I wouldn’t be surprised if they are counting all military-age males killed as fighters.
Palestinians would do well to divorce themselves from Hamas terrorists – it would certainly increase their life expectancy.
And marry the freedom living USA!
USA is the country that has enables Isreal to continue their war crimes i
Who should Palestinians team up with?
Germans? they recently sold subs to Israel that could launch nuclear weapons
UK? Nope, they have a manufacturing center for military hardware
Can you suggest a country that could be their true friend?
The war on indigenous people is harder to sell now that it is clear that there is a global attack on their resources.
For starters, they could try marrying *rational thinking*, and realize that – 7 decades into what is turning out to be a century of self-inflicted misery – bozos like Greenwald and Blumenthal aren’t really interested in their fate, and are merely using Palestinians as cannon fodder in their personal anti-Israel and, more broadly, anti-West jihads.
Stop provoking lsraeli response – which was, by the way, completely justified this time just as it was in every single instance in the past – would be a good first step. Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is insanity.
Yes, it is Glenn Greenwald and Max Blumenthal who are using Palestinians as cannon fodder. Sigh.
The Israeli navy blocking foreign aid- to the point of abducting the crew of the peaceful freedom flotilla- who is provoking who there?
http://www.mintpressnews.com/second-freedom-flotilla-kidnapped-by-israeli-navy-still-missing/207083/
If I move into your house and kill your children, and when you call the cops I play the victim- would you be as understanding of me?
“If I move into your house and kill your children, and when you call the cops I play the victim- would you be as understanding of me?”
Arab Muslim history of imperial conquest perfectly summed up in a single sentence. Thanks, this will be put to good use.
Loowheeze moovs frum vurbal incuntinence to teh sadd shaddo uv wat she thikns iz vurbal jew jitsue. Pats hur hare straytenz hur koolotts an moovs on.
hunnee yew gon bee a wurldklass lo-kost stret wokker inn know tiem don u no.
Amazing to see how the UK shiksa and former Tory MP Louise Mensch (sic upon decypherment) has by now become @ NYC so shameless a ghetto-mindset white supremacist, izzis4raeli style.
On the subject of terrorism, the IOF (Israeli Occupation Forces) cowards killed approx 1,800 civilians, including 521 children, during last years latest massacre of Palestinian civilians. They deliberately bombed U.N safe houses, schools, hospitals, geriatric clincs, childrens playgrounds, and children playing football on a beach. How’s that for terrorism?
Any unfortunate victims among Gazan civilians are a lamentable but understandable blowback for previous Palestinian terrorism.
Palestinians should stop murdering Israeli civilians, and then there will be no need for Israeli military response targeting the (elected by the way) terrorist Hamas Government of Gaza, so no Palestinian civilians will be lost. It’s really, really simple.
Does “previous Palestinian terrorism” justify any degree of violence in response? Is there a line beyond which the retaliation becomes excessive and immoral?
Any unfortunate victims among Israeli civilians are a lamentable but understandable blowback for previous Israeli terrorism.
Israel should stop murdering Palestinian civilians, and then there will be no need for Palestinian military response targeting the (elected by the way) terrorist Government of Tel aviv, so no Israeli civilians will be lost. It’s really, really simple.
If I wrote what I want to really say they would put me in goal and they would be right to do so.
Ban me for 24 hours Glenn, please. This thing called Cypher, I cant figure.
“Israel should stop murdering Palestinian civilians, and then there will be no need for Palestinian military response targeting the (elected by the way) terrorist Government of Tel aviv, so no Israeli civilians will be lost. It’s really, really simple.”
Apart from your laughable misapplication of the terms “murder” and “terrorism”, I agree. It is high time for civilians to stop dying on both sides.
When at least 69% of the victims are civilian, that’s not an unfortunate accident. It’s deliberate. You believe Israel has a right to defend itself. Do you believe the same of every country and territory, including the Palestinian territories?
“When at least 69% of the victims are civilian, that’s not an unfortunate accident. It’s deliberate”
How do you know that? Are you saying that civilians were disproportionate victims? That would mean over 31% of Gazans were combatants. Even if that were an accurate figure (it’s not civilians were actually 40% of casualties) it would still be remarkably low for a battle where the Gazan militants hid exclusively among civilians.
What do you know about warfare, especially asymmetrical urban warfare?
This is what someone who actually knows about warfare had to say: General Martin Dempsey, Chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff, top US military officer. And he certainly didn’t say it on behalf of the Obama Administration, which takes the opposing (uninformed) view:
“Dempsey was asked about the ethical implications of Israel’s handling of the Gaza war, during an appearance in New York at the Carnegie Council for Ethics in International Affairs.
“I actually do think that Israel went to extraordinary lengths to limit collateral damage and civilian casualties,” Dempsey told the group.
“In this kind of conflict, where you are held to a standard that your enemy is not held to, you’re going to be criticized for civilian casualties,” he added.”
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/11/06/us-israel-usa-gaza-idUSKBN0IQ2LH20141106
They leveled neighborhoods, and brought down entire apartment buildings. It was clearly disproportionate and punitive. Of course, no one who matters in Israel is going to admit targeting civilians intentionally (although some soldiers have come forward). They care about bad PR. We also can’t absolutely prove motive — good or bad — because we’re not mind readers. All we can look at is the figures and the damage, and come up with a reasonable evaluation from them.
loosewheezeysipphullus hunnee, I alruddy toll yew teh lourd of the Joos an Kristums lieks teh atrushities and sew yew shud jest say “Ameen!” two themm.
Israhell jest dashin teh infunts of Gaza in pieces liek teh lourd dew too rebelyus Samireeuh don u no. Iss vary godlee violins uf Israhell loosewheezey hunnee.
“The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral; returning violence with violence only multiplies voilence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars.” Martin Luther King
I watched a video of Max on his last book, Goliath, and was shocked
It seems to be about 2 years ago that I realized that Zionism was a colonial strategy, founded in the late 1800’s, on the model of colonial powers at the time
I follow Max on twitter
I watched several videos of Max from the middle east during the war and thus have heard many of the human stories that Glenn wrote about in this article and the extended interview.
I will get the book because of this endorsement from Glenn – I was wavering, now I have decided to get it.
Here is a video of Max’s book tour from Seattle on June 29. It is long. It is shocking to learn about US involvement during the war itself.
Our politician class is corrupt. Obama and John Kerry were right in there supporting the war crimes.
TalkingStickTV – Max Blumenthal – The 51 Day War
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jljg0-6qYKs
Hi Glenn
Thanks for the article, I’ve said it before and I will again, freedom for Palestine and freedom for Israel
Since you’re repeating yourself, I imagine you have a clear sense of what you mean by freedom for Israel. Perhaps you would share what your observable objectives are that would indicate such a state-space for Israel? Or, at the very least, offer an indication of the specific ways that Israel is now not free?
Hi TallyHoGazeHound
Sorry but I did not understand your first question and you might not get the reply either but there are many ways in which Israel is not free, at least half a dozen good ones, (mass media bias, drug laws, snooping, religion, need for better education, etc) including the issues mentioned by The Intercept. I wish that that Palestine is free and that Israel is free and that both sides realize they are the same side, Then from reading others above they might say I need a thicker sick lol