ARE YOU THE SOCRATES of the National Security Agency?
That was the question the NSA asked its workforce in a memo soliciting applications for an in-house ethicist who would write a philosophically minded column about signals intelligence. The column, which would be posted on a classified network at the NSA, should be absorbing and original, the memo said, asking applicants to submit a sample to show they had what it takes to be the “Socrates of SIGINT.”
In 2012, the column was given to an analyst in the Signals Intelligence Directorate who wrote that initially he opposed the government watching everyone but came around to total surveillance after a polygraph exam did not go well. In a turn of events that was half-Sartre and half-Blade Runner, he explained that he was sure he failed the polygraph because the examiner did not know enough about his life to understand why at times the needle jumped.
“One of the many thoughts that continually went through my mind was that if I had to reveal part of my personal life to my employer, I’d really rather reveal all of it,” he wrote. “Partial revelation, such as the fact that answering question X made my pulse quicken, led to misunderstandings.”
He was fully aware of his statement’s implications.
“I found myself wishing that my life would be constantly and completely monitored,” he continued. “It might seem odd that a self-professed libertarian would wish an Orwellian dystopia on himself, but here was my rationale: If people knew a few things about me, I might seem suspicious. But if people knew everything about me, they’d see they had nothing to fear. This is the attitude I have brought to SIGINT work since then.”
When intelligence officials justify surveillance, they tend to use the stilted language of national security, and we typically hear only from senior officials who stick to their platitudes. It is rare for mid-level experts — the ones conducting the actual surveillance — to frankly explain what they do and why. And in this case, the candid confessions come from the NSA’s own surveillance philosopher. The columns answer a sociological curiosity: How does working at an intelligence agency turn a privacy hawk into a prophet of eavesdropping?
Not long after joining the NSA, Socrates was assigned a diplomatic target. He knew the saying by Henry Stimson that “gentlemen do not read each other’s mail,” and he felt uncomfortable doing the digital equivalent of it. As he wrote, “If there were any place in the world that idealism should rule and we should show voluntary restraint in our intelligence work, diplomacy was that place. Terrorists who meant harm to children and puppies were one thing, but civil servants talking about work while schlepping their kids to soccer practice seemed a little too close to home.”
His polygraph was an epiphany, however.
“We tend to mistrust what we do not understand well,” he noted. “A target that has no ill will to the U.S., but which is being monitored, needs better and more monitoring, not less. So if we’re in for a penny, we need to be in for a pound.”
I wanted to know more about Socrates, but one of the asymmetric oddities of the NSA is that the agency permits itself to know whatever it wants to know about any of us, yet does everything it can to prevent us from knowing anything about the men and women who surveil us, aside from a handful of senior officials who function as the agency’s public face. An NSA spokesperson refused to confirm that Socrates even worked there. “I don’t have anything to provide for your research,” the spokesperson wrote in an email.
Socrates lives in the age of Google and data mining. Like the rest of us, he cannot remain invisible.
The “SIGINT Philosopher” columns, provided to The Intercept by NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden, gave me the opportunity to learn more without the agency’s assistance, because they included his name. Heading down the path of collecting information about Socrates (whose name we are not publishing — more on that later), I was in the odd position of conducting surveillance on a proponent of surveillance, so I had a get-out-of-guilt-free card.
Unlike the paranoid eavesdropper played by Gene Hackman in The Conversation, or the quiet Stasi agent at the center of The Lives of Others, Socrates lives in the age of Google and data mining. Like the rest of us, he cannot remain invisible. Socrates was an evangelical Christian for seven years, got married at 19, divorced at 27, and remarried not long after. He is now a registered Democrat and lives in a Maryland suburb with his son and wife, a public school teacher. I’ve seen the inside of their house, thanks to a real estate listing; the home, on a cul de sac, has four bedrooms, is more than 2,000 square feet, and has a nice wooden deck. I’ve also seen pictures of their son, because Socrates and his wife posted family snapshots on their Facebook accounts. His wife was on Twitter.
Conducting surveillance can be a creepily invasive procedure, as Socrates discovered while peering into the digital life of his first diplomatic target, and as I discovered while collecting information about him. In the abstract, surveillance might seem an antiseptic activity — just a matter of figuring out whether a valid security reason exists to surveil a target and then executing a computer command and letting the algorithms do the rest. But it’s not always that clinical. Sheelagh McNeill, the research editor with whom I worked on this story, was able to find Socrates’ phone number, and although he did not respond to voicemails, he eventually got on the line when I called at night.
His young son answered and fetched his father. Socrates was not pleased. He asked that I not disclose his identity, which was ironic because his columns praised the virtues of total transparency as a way to build trust. Why shouldn’t the public know about him? What’s wrong with a bit of well-intentioned surveillance among fellow Americans? I was not able to ask these questions, however.
“I can’t say anything,” he said, not long before he hung up. “You can’t use my name.”
He didn’t need to say anything, because his NSA columns explained a lot, as did the online databases McNeill and I consulted, though all of it paled in comparison to the motherlode of his blog.
HOW DO YOU TRACK A TRACKER?
The name on Socrates’ columns was not, it turned out, his full legal name; he used an abbreviated form of his first name. His last name is an ordinary one that yields a large number of search results. McNeill and I had a bit of luck, though — his columns included a user ID with his middle initial. McNeill needed a day to comb the web and examine public as well as proprietary databases before finding a person she believed was Socrates. He resided in the Washington area, was married to a woman who had worked in Korea (Socrates is a Korean language analyst), and had lived in a variety of places that correlated with biographical hints in the columns.
But there wasn’t a lot of flesh on the digital bones we had found; Socrates was correct when he said it’s easy to misunderstand someone if you know only a bit. McNeill and I, though fairly certain that we had located the right person, still didn’t know much about his life or who, in an existential sense, he was. That changed when McNeill typed his name into Google and the name of a world event that one of his columns had mentioned.
She walked to my desk with her laptop open and pointed to a blog on her screen.
“This is him,” she said.
The blog consists of more than 20,000 words Socrates wrote about his failed effort, before joining the NSA, to earn a living as a writer. As he explained in often bitter and personal detail, he reluctantly went from starving writer to salaried spy. Instead of creating fictional characters, he spied on real ones. It dawned on me: Coming from the world of books and words rather than technology and code, Socrates represented a post-modern version of the literary eavesdropper.
In his 20s, according to his blog, he wrote a personal mission statement, in the style of Jerry Maguire, in which he described the creation of literature as a higher calling than raising a child, proclaiming it nobler to live as a penniless writer than a parent. He took subsistence jobs to pay the bills and relied on financial support from family members as he tried to become the next Jonathan Franzen. He loved the great authors he read and studied — Melville, Cervantes, Borges, Vonnegut, and others. He wanted to produce great works that would persuade people to love and care about the world as much as he did.
It didn’t work out, and ironically the turning point was a graduate writing program he enrolled in at a Midwestern university in 2002. The program used the workshop method of putting students into a group and having them read and critique one another’s work. His experience amounted to a year and a half of getting bad advice from bad writers working part-time jobs to put themselves through a middling school. Nearly every professor was a dick, he wrote, and he mused that writing had turned them into dicks.
He was so angry with himself and his writing that he deleted everything he had written, even throwing away hard copies of his stories.
The worst part of the experience was the financial side, because he went into debt (annual tuition and living costs at his university can exceed $25,000). Tired of asking for handouts and getting rejection letters, he wrote in his blog that the nobility of writing was a lie. He was so angry with himself and his writing that he deleted everything he had written, even throwing away hard copies of his stories, and stopped reading literature altogether. He decided to look for real work.
Socrates was able to land a job at the NSA. He had a background in Korean, which is of great interest in the intelligence world. He worked hard, had a son, owned a house, did volunteer work with refugees. He was living the American dream. In 2012, he began the “SIGINT Philosopher” columns, and this seems to have reminded him of the joys and rewards of writing for an audience. The next year, according to his blog, he thought he might lose his day job and this crisis made him ask what he most wanted to do in life. The answer surprised him: He wanted to write.
He was having, as he frankly admitted, a mid-life crisis that turned into a writing experiment. After 10 years of ignoring literature, he set a goal — he would write a collection of stories for an annual competition organized by the University of Iowa Press. He had a bit less than a year to write the stories, while keeping his position at the NSA. In the summer of 2014, a month before the Iowa deadline and just before one of his stories was published in a small literary review, he started blogging, without mentioning that he was a spy.
The surveillance archetypes that dominate popular culture are different from Socrates because they eventually see evil in the systems of surveillance that employ them. There is Winston Smith in 1984, who works at the Ministry of Truth and despises everything it does. Gerd Wiesler in The Lives of Others turns insubordinate after he receives an assignment to surveil a well-known writer and his girlfriend. And Harry Caul in The Conversation comes to fear that he is being played by the business executive who hired him.
Socrates, on the other hand, is loyal to a fault. One of his columns made a point of saying that even if an NSA employee disagrees with a policy, and even if the policy is wrong, she should stay the course. “We probably all have something we know a lot about that is being handled at a higher level in a manner we’re not entirely happy about,” he wrote. “This can cause great cognitive dissonance for us, because we may feel our work is being used to help the government follow a policy we feel is bad.” Socrates advised modesty. Maybe the policy is actually correct — or perhaps it is wrong but will work out in the end. “I try,” he explained, “to be a good lieutenant and good civil servant of even the policies I think are misguided.”
Socrates does not have a quiet psyche, however. While his blog and columns do not question the NSA, he struggled to live meaningfully. He returned to creative writing to make a lasting and worthwhile mark, so that his time on earth would not be wasted. Unfortunately, his second effort to become a successful writer did not turn out any better than the first. He reached out to two writing groups but never heard back. He paid for an editor to review one of his stories, disagreed with the editor’s comments, and accused the editor of trying to drum up additional fees for more work — and blogged about all of this in excruciating detail. The story, about a man whose ex-girlfriend gives him herpes, was called “Infection.”
Socrates sent his stories to literary reviews and got rejection after rejection. Late last year, he wrote that he felt empty and low. His blogging platform allows for tags for each post, and the tags he used included “rejection,” “rejection notes,” “giving up,” and “why write?” Even worse was the silence that greeted the one story he had gotten published after he started blogging. He heard nothing from readers, and he wondered whether anyone other than family members and friends were aware of it.
THE INTERCEPT HAS A POLICY of not publishing the names of non-public intelligence officials unless there is a compelling reason, as with our naming of Alfreda Bikowsky, who oversaw key aspects of the CIA’s torture program. Withholding Socrates’ identity presents certain problems in the age of Google, however. If I quote from his blog, or give its name, or provide other search-enhancing morsels, like the name or location of his graduate writing program or where he was born, I might provide the sort of data that could instantly reveal his name with a few keystrokes.
So I am more or less trying to do what the NSA and a large number of agencies and corporations do with the personal data they possess — stripping away names and other identifying information to “anonymize” the data before sharing it. The beauty of anonymizing data, according to the (very many) entities that do it, is that nobody can be identified — citizens and consumers do not have to worry that their privacy is violated when petabytes of data are collected about what they do, where they go, what they read, where they eat, and what they buy, because their names are not attached to it. The conceit is that our data does not betray us.
You don’t need to code if you want to hack into someone’s life. We are all hackers now.
Anonymization is problematic, however, because it doesn’t always work. It is entirely possible that a reader of this story could make a few lucky or smart guesses and data-mine their way to Socrates’ name. There is a whole area of data research that’s known as re-identification, which consists of matching anonymized data with actual names. Even if anonymization did work, there’s a creepiness to knowing everything about a person even if you don’t know their name. Look at this story — it’s invasive without disclosing Socrates’ name, isn’t it? I could dial up the invasiveness, too. Would you like to know the asking price of the house he lives in? Would you like to know the names of the schools where his wife has worked? Would you like to see the pictures of their son or their house? Know the name of their dog? Their dates of birth? The branch of the military Socrates served in and his dates of service? There is so much I can tell you about Socrates without telling you his name. You don’t need to code if you want to hack into someone’s life. We are all hackers now.
If the original Socrates of ancient Greece were still around, he would probably suggest that it is morally compromising to conduct surveillance on people who have done no harm — no matter whether the surveillance is carried out by a philosopher in a robe, a journalist with a laptop, or an intelligence agency with a $10 billion budget. Surveillance, as a word, is a cleaned-up version of voyeurism, and whether state-sponsored or editor-approved, it’s creepy to carry out, and probably futile in most cases. Socrates (the columnist) insisted that total surveillance would allow the NSA to understand us and not mistake our intentions. His inaugural column even suggested that the NSA’s slogan could be “building informed decision-makers — so that targets do not suffer our nation’s wrath unless they really deserve it — by exercising deity-like monitoring of the target.” Yet Socrates probably knows, as most writers do, that what we say does not necessarily reflect what is in our minds.
Here’s an example. I told Socrates, in our phone call, that I had read his blog. I assumed that once our conversation was finished he would go online and take down the blog, scrupulously doing what a smart surveiller would do once he realized he was the target rather than targeter — try to scrub the public domain of his existence to inhibit surveillance of him.
Yet the blog stayed up. In fact, he continued posting — once about a blockbuster movie series he disliked, another time about a short story he generally liked. I asked McNeill, the research editor, what she made of this, and she was surprised, too. Although I could not spy on Socrates in the way the NSA spies on its targets, I had done a lot and thought I understood him. In addition to the biographical and financial data I had mined, Socrates and I have an intellectual kinship as writers. After all, editors have killed stories I have written. I have friends who have gone through graduate writing programs. I have taught in one. I have the same hope (probably futile) that my writing will do some good in this world and somebody in Hollywood will make a movie.
Yet I had misunderstood him. I’m not sure I can ever understand him, even if he were strapped into a polygraph and had all the time in the world to answer my questions. If it is true that we are mysteries even to ourselves — as the original Socrates suggested — the eavesdroppers at the NSA invade our privacy without learning who we really are.
Documents:
Research: Sheelagh McNeill.
I think many, if not most, Americans would be very surprised at the kind of people who work at NSA. They are dedicated, intelligent, and aware of the responsibility that goes with what they do. When I worked there years ago, some were even active in the anti-Vietnam War movement.
Are you surprised by the the kind of people (senior NSA FBI and Congressional Oversight staff) who been blowing their whistles on the Executive Branches DOJs AND DoD NSA staffs ongoing criminal conspiracy to illegally and unconstitutionally surveil every innocent American Citizen without a warrant or probable cause?
….Since at least 2005 (when the warantless wiretapping program and ATTs tapping of the internet backbone was revealed) all NSA employees and NSA subcontractor employees have been KNOWINGLY and CRIMINALLY complicit in an intelligence community wide coverup of illegal domestic surveillance of US citizens by the US military.
Every single one of them complicit from at least the point these undeniable facts were revealed in the the New York Times.
LJC
…so by all means “LJC”, surprise me…
The only way I can make sense of your comment is as sarcasm.
Were they “‘active’ in the anti-Vietnam War movement” as -snitches- and -shills-?
RCL
Fiction. Working Fiction.
http://www.sigmaforum.org/
“…NSA officials conspired with the DoD and DOJ to violate plaintiffs (US Citizens) rights…”
Thomas Drake, Diane Roark, Ed Loomis, J Kirk Wiebe and William Binney File Criminal Complaint in United States Third District Court for the District of Columbia (The “Rocket Court”) Against Elected and Appointed Constitutional Criminals Who Willfully Failed to Honor their Sworn Duty to Preserve Protect and Defend the US Constitution and Bill of Rights Against ALL Enemies Foreign and Domestic.
Plaintiffs may be reached c/o Larry Klayman, Esq.2020 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W., Suite 800 Washington, D.C. 20006 https://cryptome.org/2015/08/drake-001.pdf
First Cause of Action: Whistleblower Protection Act
Second Cause of Action: Fourth Amendment Violation: Illegal Searches and Seizures.
Third Cause of Action: Fifth Amendment Violation: Illegal Detention and False Imprisonment.
Fourth Cause of Action: Fifth Amendment Violation: Deprivation of Security Clearances, Employment, and Income without Due Process of Law.
Fifth Cause of Action: Fifth Amendment Violation: Deprivation of Property
Sixth Cause of Action: Deprivation of Free Speech Under the First Ammendment
Seventh Cause of Action: Deprivation of Civil Rights: First Amendment and Due Process Rights
Eighth Cause of Action: Intentional Infliction of Emotional Distress
Ninth Cause of Action: Malicious Prosecution
Tenth Cause of Action: Abuse of Process
Plaintiffs addresses are not listed here for security reasons. They may be reached c/o
Larry Klayman, Esq.2020 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W., Suite 800 Washington, D.C. 20006
https://cryptome.org/2015/08/drake-001.pdf
Christian C Holmer ? Wnt Aug. 20 2015, 6:07 a.m.
The President, and every member of Congress and the Supreme Court take that same oath to preserve protect and defend the constitution of the United States.
In it our civilian leadership takes promises to protect US citizens inalienable god given rights as enumerated in the Bill of Rights. The right to free speech and freedom of association. The right against self-incrimination. The right to be secure in our person papers and effects an so on…
We have our elected officials (as distinct from military personnel) take this “oath” because history and human nature have taught us not to rely on the better angels of each and every political actor entering the public sphere. In court those who are testifying put their hand on a bible and swear to the tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Failing to do so is a federal crime called perjury.
When John Roberts administered the oath to Barack the first time he messed it up and they had to redo it. Both of these US civilians (one elected one appointed) took the oath to preserve protect and defend our rights seriously enough to make sure they got it right for the public record. What’s the penalty for lying to a judge after swearing on a bible?
? Reply
How badly? Like this?
// __ Obama Claims He’s Visited 57 States
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youtube.com/watch?v=EpGH02DtIws
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OK, anyone can make a mistake (but what a “mistake”? I hear you saying ;-)), but what I really find amusing is that when he noticed people were laughing he started to talk some sh!t about “his staff”
I wonder how he will fare if he is put in front of a map and asked where the people in his kill list live.
RCL
I wonder if this is the same Socrates who used to hang around philosophy sims on Second Life. I bet it is. He has/had a bit of a jocular griefer personality, had an interest in Heidegger but other than that indicated no philosophical background or inclination. His Second Life character initially was sort of creative and he was clearly a mature adult. He did not use voice to communicate much at all, if ever, only typing, but he encouraged other people to use voice. He regularly disrupted philosophical-political conversations ordinary miscellaneous groups of people (not experts in philosophy) were engaging in — in fact initially he seemed devoted to that project.
I don’t know if I’d go so far as to call Gene Hackman’s character in “The Conversation” paranoid. Like Kurt Cobain said, “just because you’re paranoid, don’t mean they’re not after you.” Otherwise, great article, as usual, I’m very impressed with The Intercept’s fearlessness of subject matter.
It is easy to think of the NSA as purely an evil entity that opposes the principles we hold dear. Maybe in our universe there is no better alternative than to get rid of it and start from scratch. But our universe, from the beginning of time until its end, is but a work in progress, and there are other universes, later versions, that will stand beside it in which people have thought out better ways to do things, and to envision them is, however imperfectly, to rest beside the Creator and to revel in the improvement of creation.
So imagine you walked into a car dealership with all those fancy new iPhone-like cars, and you see a gold-bordered notice on the windshield: “The design of this vehicle has been analyzed and certified by the National Security Agency and been awarded a Secure rating. The source code for all installed software is openly available and has been analyzed by NSA experts and the broader programming community. The connections it makes for maintenance are protected by military grade encryption. The software ensures that no request for data will be fulfilled without your express consent. The company has signed documents certifying that any personal information you choose to provide will be held securely, deleted on request, and will not be sold or given to any entity that cannot give comparable assurances. As provided by the Civil Defense Act, all transponders on the vehicle are documented in the manual and can be physically deactivated by the owner at any time without prejudice to warranty coverage. As provided by the Civil Defense Act, all upgrades delivered to vehicles carrying this Secure certification must be subject to a third party code audit and signed securely. You may use this vehicle anywhere in the world knowing that the faith and confidence of the United States defends your privacy and your person from attack.”
Now imagine you read a newspaper: NSA hackers at it again. Monday the National Security Administration announced its successful penetration of an internet backbone connection. Agents were able to infiltrate a manhole and split the signal from an AOL fiber optic cable, successfully extracting confidential emails from an unencrypted connection. NSA executive Ron Wyden called the vulnerability “a serious breach of trust”, saying that “unsecured connections on the Internet create the opportunity for hackers who aren’t from the NSA to come in and spy on our infrastructure”. The company said that it was continuing with upgrade efforts to correct the vulnerability. Under the Civil Defense Act, firms that advertise secure internet face substantial fines for failing this duty, but for negligent breaches much of their liability can be offset by the funds expended on quickly correcting the underlying vulnerability.
Picture what it would be like if the NSA were truly a nationalistic enterprise, bent on protecting the Constitution, and ensuring U.S. consumers have access to a secure products that people can use with absolute confidence that they aren’t being spied on, abundant warnings about those that fail that standard. But it might still spy on North Korea just as it does now. People would say that North Korea has a disadvantage, because its unfree government ensures that citizens cannot be trusted with genuinely secure communication, leaving it forever vulnerable to foreign spies.
Brilliant.
Why?
Sometimes dreams are in black & white, without any shades of grey.
While we are at. Why don’t we consider the NSA a clutch of wizards and magicians? For all of your pondering imagination you don’t touch on the root problem with the National Security Agency. This is not a faulty universe, or the idea that the organization is that infamous “the man”, or “big brother”. It is not that they care the overall citizenship at all. This is just what happens when you give an unexceptional people power over other unexceptional people and then set up the whole system with no accountability. That is what was unraveled here.
Also, the idea that an American organization of any size or imagined importance is meaningful to the universe or any definition of god is completely ridiculous. The NSA, like other organizations before it and after it, are set on a finite timeline. Our ancestors will be reminiscing about it like we do with the Stasi, and the MGB/GPU/Cheka before it. The SSIS in Egypt. The BIS in China. Ancient Rome had The Frumentarii. The Secret Police is an ongoing factor in all of our societies. Our American mistake was thinking we were exempt because:Democracy, and that we never took heed of the mistakes of past organizations and civilizations. ie.accountability.
Leave god and the universe out of it. We simply need to decide if we are going to be free and accountable. Or we are going to be slaves.
Masterful article with brilliant technique to make a point in an impactful way. I think it is totally ethical. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. If certain people have a problem with this, then maybe they should stop trivializing the collection of meta-data.
i’d like a job with the NSA …and i’d swaer on a stack of holy bibles that i wouldn’t copy any sensitive material or plant any kind of worm in their network
it would be so great to join a total global domination minded orginization that has the money and power to back it up…..i get tingles just imagining what they’ll do once they achieve total global domination so sexy
“Socrates insisted that total surveillance would allow the NSA to understand us and not mistake our intentions.” This did not matter in the slightest under the regime of J. Edgar Hoover, and that is because exculpatory information was completely disregarded, while the barest hint of anything suggesting an affiliation with communism was seized upon and used as a justification to destroy a person’s life – all without any accountability or oversight. And every one of those devoted, hard-working agents would have argued with conviction that it was all in the country’s best interests and that all of the targets deserved it. If this philosopher of SIGINT’s views are representative of the culture at the NSA, it signifies a disturbing lack of appreciation for history, for human nature, and for those evils which our Constitution is designed to protect against.
Anyone learning Korean, like Mr Jake here sooner or later becomes wedded to spying since all the available literature in that language originates from guns of the Kim Dynasty. My suggestion is we put a strict ban on the study and teaching of the Korean language itself.
the YAD files: https://50mincoach.wordpress.com/category/the-yad-files/
After the student uprising in Europe the Swiss Government imposed a working ban on teachers who where – proven or not – left leaning. That ban was at least 30 years valid.
By the end of 1998 a socio-political scandal erupted Switzerland – the Secret Files scandal (ger: der Fichen Skandal). In short; 11% of the population was snooped on and registered on cards (Fichen) that linked to a folder with detailed information, among the informants where best friends and family members, a black list of about 400 leftist – socialist – uncomfortable opponent of the Government – Journalists – Writers – activist against Nuclear Energy and the Army – that would have being arrested and interned instantly in case of international conflict. In the meantime the Internet has being “cleansed” of this shameful period by the Swiss Government. There are not much information left. Only 6 month after the discovery of that scandal the Swiss Government declared all is back on track, the people have confidence again and the Government will behave.
Alas, nothing has changed.
Out of this another Socio-Political scandal could emerge – “the YAD files”. It is the case of a Swiss individual who’s life was torn into pieces by destroying his family business with nearly a million dollar damage, black-mailing and feeding clients with wrong accusations, then preventing him of getting new clients so to cripple his finances, his business and social networks to a point where it was nearly impossible to conduct further business, sneaking into and bugging of his private living environment was done not less than 2x, character assassination, mobbing, public embarrassing was as much part of the game. Last but not least they spread wrong accusations that prevented the remaining friends to distrust. As technology progressed not only phone records and metadata, but also eMails and surf habits where tracked and stored. If they found a possible business opportunity coming up for the person they turned collected personal information against that person again.
The dystopian world we are living seems a creation of those in power to keep ordinary citizens struggling so they don’t find time and energy to fight wrong Governmental behavior – admittedly clever.
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https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichenskandal
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What this unhinged comment has to do with Thomas James’ one?
typical psy op
The Swiss consulate invited me to continue my political asylum petition
RCL
What was the hold up on reporting AT&T’s latest evidence of colluding voluntarily to relieve us of our liberty? The evidence sounds old from what I hear, so did AT&T get some other special treatment from the gubernet, AGAIN, like a hold button?
Did I tell you about Blankeship, an old fart on YouTube who pops when I search for mob docs? Tried using Hayden’s old muscle in the 60s, but could not get the phone company to hook him up. So he finally met with old Joe Bonanno and had 50 lines installed by the next morning. Obviously Joe wanted to meet this young man with the massive potential, what did a 12 lot trailer park need with fifty lines? And their OFF! Prostitution, gambling, liquor, drugs, storing stole property, what CAN’T one do when permitted to?
See, old fart is a Dem from the FDR period, unlikely to help a Republican, but Joe was moving into GOP territory as they took the hook from Labor’s crooked leaders. Did not Nixon make ITT hand over money for his convention in San Diego, Carmen? And who’s Nixon golfing with only weeks after his resignation? The guy who was supposed to have met Hoffa and his replacement.
Was the point of that reveal that email is entailed while Congress pretends AT&T only hacked out landlines? Because NYTs drove a truck all over that, again, those fucking Teamsters.
Everything about the dickhead in this story screams ‘Beta’. So it’s no surprise that he belonged to one of those ludicrous cults that pretend that history was set in motion by a foreskin-obsessed Sky Maniac with the emotional stability and moral compass of an American teenager.
Anyone who participates in .gov surveillance deserves their entire lives posted to pastebin. People defending this dickhead because he’s just a cog in the Death Machine need to think harder – the Death Machine relies on the Little Eichmanns far more than it relies on trigger-pullers… but most of all it relies on us peons bending over and taking it, and rationalising our submission. That time should be past, just as our time of kneeling as the king went by, or being held in thrall by some paedophile cardinal in a frock, have passed.
I guess you missed Jimmy Savile grooming an entire nation so he could carry the keys to the locked up kiddies all over Britain. He liked to sweat the Royal Silks, but otherwise bullied up money for the Pope.
Top that off , Pops. BBC, how evil can you BE?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QUuCWNyvv8
Was Jimmy Savile A Wizard? v1.0 **FULL DOCUMENTARY**
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rjy8oLVOvi4
John Lydon ‘I’d like to kill Jimmy Savile’ [1978]
Rotten knew, as did many, that Savile was a sick monster but he had fiends in Buckingham palace and was untouchable.
..
Socrates, the real Socrates liked 12 year old boys. He seemed to like them younger but only had sex with under 12 year olds on festival agapes. He criticized those having sex with children on non festival days as being unmoral.
Real classy that Socrates yet the world forgets to remember his sickness.
In an age when “12 year old boys” were already working in the field along their much elder country men
Also, I am not a specialist in Greek history but given their constant wars I doubt life expectancy was greater than 35 years old.
RCL
35? try 70.
http://www.hormones.gr/211/article/article.html
The length of life and eugeria in classical Greece
Menelaos L. Batrinos
Emeritus Professor of Endocrinology
Abstract
Contrary to the commonly held belief that in antiquity and as late as 1700 A.D. normal lifespan was about 35 years, there are indications that the ancient Greeks lived longer. In a study of all men of renown, living in the 5th and 4th century in Greece, we identified 83 whose date of birth and death have been recorded with certainty. Their mean ± SD and median lengths of life were found to be 71.3±13.4 and 70 years, respectively. Although this cohort cannot be considered as representative of the general population, it is however indicative of a long length of life in classical Greece. Good living conditions and a mild climate at the time of intellectual and artistic excellence, the use of slaves for hard work, an animated social life in which the aged actively participated and, not least of all, the respect that aged people were accorded by the younger, all favored a longer length of life and eugeria (happy aging) or eulongevity in classical Greece.
..
According to wikipedia Socrates was 70 to 71 years old when he died. On certain feast days normal rules did not apply and one could bed a younger than 12 year old at the love fests known as agapes.
.
So you think paedophilia is okay with a 70 year old and a 12 year old, because the boy works in a field.
You sick twisted individual.
correction 470BC to 399 BC made him 41 years old and a paedophile.
You are the one who has twisted what I said for whichever reason and I will not call you “sick”
All I have repeated here is that we are making crazy @ss parallelisms while comparing our “Socrates”/The NSA with the real one/ancient Greeks’ forms of governments. As Jung tried to explain to us: “They are not us x centuries ago”
For the rest of us …
“all men of renown, living in the 5th and 4th century in Greece” …
You seem to be better at throwing adjectives at people than thinking out stuff for yourself and making sense of things.
Also, if life expectancy in ancient Greece was 70 that means that many people reached their 80’s which I very much doubt
RCL
Dear Ondelette:
I liked very much Peter’s article. What I liked most is that the Intercept seems to gradually be awakening to the idea that there are actual people working for the NSA.
Something I have actually noticed is how police likes creeps and idiots. In fact, being intelligent may disqualify you to become police.
// __ Police Officially Refuse To Hire Applicants With High IQ Scores
http://politicalblindspot.com/police-officially-refuse-to-hire-applicants-with-high-iq-scores/
I think, for more than one good reason, people should know about both, “Socrates” and Socrates; one of them being: isn’t “Socrates” for knowing all about us? How could he be against us knowing about him? The NSA is being funded by U.S. tax payers’ monies …
RCL
Nazis also cultured their closed-door esoteric philosophies and ocultism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esoteric_Nazism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism_and_occultism
if “Socrates” wants to be a philosopher he should actually learn the stuff and practice it in the open as all philosophers do.
RCL
The Nazis even specified the proper way to build a church, and note that the alter was altered to benefit Hitler’s image. Nothing before us, just a chair to the left with a sword and a copy of his whiny book on it.
I lived only a rocks throw from one of these churches and still wish we had taken it out. Those bells are from HELL! A gift from Hitler to the Saar for seeing it was better to go with him than to be taken away in chains.
Speaking of chains, I bet the Barclay Brothers would love to know the Germans only painted over those hitlarious murals that displayed the murals of his story. Someone should look into revealing those, Telegraph.
My deepest apologies for that redundancy, GCHQ. I know how you get confused and then loose your place, markers.
Henry Stimson – “gentlemen do not read each other’s mail.”
Charlie Chan – ” Evesdroppers rarely hear well of themselves.”
Stimson was bullied like a baby into rolling over for the corporate interests of the American International Corporation. Of course he didn’t want others to hear them using his power to deliver orders over official lines. “I’ll take Baku on an Onion roll, make it kosher.”
Great piece, food for thoughts. Thanks
It is really a tragic and ironic at the same time that while a white fellow like Snowden exposed the NSA overreach, a black fellow like Socrates writes apologia for them. This is the real reason why the black people now have to emphasize that their lives also matter, because they themselves have subverted their own cause and made their lives less significant, even though some of them currently occupy the most hallowed precincts of the nation.
There they go again with the “white” vs “black” thing. Yes, there is some irony in being black and being part of the abusive gang, but it is not about your skin color at all (as if it had anything to do with anything!) but your brains (or lack of brains) Why can’t a black person be an @ssh0l3?
I am black myself and I am all the way for Snowden, Assange, Manning, Sajarov, … against the NSA, GCHQ, KGB, G2 … oppressive and controlling b#llsh!t
Also, going back to the “white” vs “black” thing. Are we sure “Socrates” is “black” (as you seemingly infer)?
Saying that our “Socrates” was #11 on a google search was not the right way to find “him”. Because, when people started (as they did) talking about “him” the google search orders will be altered and second because of, well, google who are NSA themselves anyway.
I think from the two characters we have been talking about one of them is all fluf and fabricated insipid cr@p (one of those self-believed “authors” actively working on making the crowds “like him”), the other one looks more like “their guy”. Also, by the way, police/NSA would not generally like one of them, they don’t like public, seeking-attention drama queens that much …
I may be wrong, but here are some leads:
~
site:alanwking.com NSA (0)
site:alanwking.com Korean (9)
site:alanwking.com Infection (9)
site:alanwking.com Christian -“Hans Christian Anderson” (50+)
site:alanwking.com Korean Infection writer (0)
site:alanwking.com Infection rejection (0)
~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~
http://workshopheretic.blogspot.com/2014/08/i-was-going-to-do-either-post-about-way.html
~
http://baltimorereview.org/index.php/fall_2014/section/category/fiction
~
RCL
Although Socrates would have hated this guy’s opinions, the moniker is still probably an apt one, since his role is not to write ethics but apologetics – recalling Socrates’s own “Apology”.
A lot of comments but none re this statement:
“We tend to mistrust what we do not understand well,” he noted. “A target that has no ill will to the U.S., but which is being monitored, needs better and more monitoring, not less. So if we’re in for a penny, we need to be in for a pound.”
WTF…this IS really how TPTB feel about us citizens. If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about. Our Constitution is slowly being ripped from us in the manner you cook a pot of frogs…slowly, so as not to shock and overwhelm us, but at some point in the future we will be standing behind barbed wire in camps wondering what happened to America.
And to Ondy. I just don’t understand why someone who is so fearful of “doxxing” spends so much time trying to influence public opinion in the comment sections of websites…UNLESS, you are one of those NSA/CIA paid trolls…just wondering out loud.
We can’t miss you if you don’t leave. So please, as you said, don’t let the door hit you on the way out, and please do provide us with an opportunity to “miss you.”
…that was a revolving door.
Not ‘Ondy’, not a regular commenter, but watching all of this, I just have to say, you people are every bit as despicable, or worse, than the people and governments you like to repeatedly say limit your freedom of speech (*and they do, but that’s another story). Mayhaps you’re them, mayhaps you’re not — but either way you’re just as in favor of prejudice and censorship. What’s that quote about monsters? Or the one about staring into an abyss?
It’s despicable and you should be ashamed of yourselves.
I call it the retrievable blessing. MMM (man made materials) are tested for a short period of time, given an “ok” and then produced. Ten-fifteen years later it’s discovered that there are other effects that, over time, become apparent. Greed is not patient, nor is selfishness.
Peter: Thank you much for the excellent article.
:)
I wonder what people here think of a case like this recent news: http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/feds-man-retaliated-fbi-agent-craigslist-sex-ad-33038346 . Someone was angry with an FBI agent, and posted his phone number with a fake sex ad to Craigslist, leading to two disappointed callers – prosecutors charged him with “stalking and harassing an FBI agent”. My first impression is that this is obnoxious, but not as obnoxious than the Westboro Baptists waving their ISIS flags at a funeral, or a high school kid writing “For a good time call —” on the boy’s room wall. What is the legal theory behind this kind of prosecution and is it something that could (also) be abused against The Intercept? What exactly is ‘harassment’ anyway?
I think that was great, but as they say: “there are many ways to skin a cat” …
I have a TI friend who was being constantly and repeatedly stopped as he drove (even on the highway and with his family) at some point he started calling 911 and reporting “some people with guns whose license plate is … “dressing as and acting like police or an organized gang of criminals who are harassing me for not reason whatsoever” … ;-)
911 calls are automatically recorded in a federal registry and police departments don’t like a bit. They angrily asked him “why did you do this?” So it was him “doing” things.
They stopped harassing him in that way
RCL
Well, they could say they were falsely claiming to be a federal agent. Felony. They could say identity theft – felony. They can say harassment. And if the agent had anything to do with the perpetrator’s own legal situation then it could also be considered threatening or harassing a witness. Something tells me trying to use a federal agent as your test case, here, Wnt, is ill-advised. Are you being deliberately obtuse?
Pretty much… after all, that’s what it is to think through an issue. Some people will say that TI targeted an agent for abuse like the guy with the Craigslist ad. Sure, there’s a difference between TI and a sex ad, but is it a legal difference? They’re both a kind of publication.
Your distinction is that the person prosecuted was “pretending to be” the agent, insomuch as he wrote the ad in a first-person way. I suppose if the TI article had been written as a fake guest column by the Socrates of SIGINT, it would be more obnoxious. On the other hand, there are some media (somehow I think of the British) where such parodies are done. Is it really “identity theft” to spoof a communication (email, web, whatever?) I thought “identity theft” was just a clever PR rebranding by the banks, where they repackaged “fraud against the bank” as “theft against some random person a thousand miles away whose mother’s maiden name is known” – but I thought it required forging an actual financial document, not just running around the kindergarten saying you’re somebody famous. As for impersonating a federal agent … I thought that had to do with impersonating the status rather than the identity (i.e. saying you’re from the FBI, even if you give your own name). Which leaves harassing a witness, which is one I really don’t understand, but seems plausible, since the courts understandably don’t want you doing anything with a witness, not even just standing outside his house in the morning and flashing him a big toothy grin.
I’m still probably missing a lot here.
Wnt,
I really appreciate your posts. If the roles were reversed and an FBI agent was angry with “someone” (an animal rights activist) and the same agent posted a fake sex ad posing as “someone” to Craigslist is it a simple case of identity theft? What if the agent did the same thing to the entire PETA board of directors and how would they ever know?
Well (as I’m sure you know) the FBI has done all of that, or something pretty similar, in COINTELPRO and related activities, so this isn’t really an academic exercise. With CISPES it ranges from describing people (unjustifiably) as foreign agents to a bizarre plot to seduce a nun ( Not making this up – http://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/1988/09/25/the-fbi-brave-battlers-against-nuns/33e65018-99c6-408a-81b7-f298cbe3b1ee/ ). I have the impression that the FBI has tamed some of this nonsense in recent years, but because it often took a long time for these stories to come out, I don’t actually know that.
My opinion is that the asymmetry in the situation results because government agents receive a salary from the public. First, there’s the persistence of it: I think that a person posting one sex ad on his own about you is a lot less worrisome than if a billionaire paid a half dozen people to spend eight hours a day posting stuff like that. And there’s the malfeasance of it: public salaries are supposed to be going to pay for beneficial activities. Furthermore, to suggest giving the ad poster a break is not really all that asymmetric, because police agents (as in COINTELPRO) don’t normally face any charges for trying to create discord between people (even when they were trying to provoke lethal confrontations as with some of the early black liberation infiltration), nor are they subject to libel if they stand up and make you out as a terrorist when they know better. I understand that putting officers at risk for a wide range of harassment charges isn’t actually a stable way to do things – so the way to even it out is not to go after some guy like this and put him in jail over a bit of juvenile amusement that amounted to two phone calls. Less prison all around is always better than more prison all around.
…My opinion is that the asymmetry in the situation results because government agents receive a salary from the public…
Xian: Wnt. To be sure.
…police agents (as in COINTELPRO) don’t normally face any charges for trying to create discord between people…
Xian: Wnt. Would you agree that once evidence comes to light USG agents are intentionally and willfully sowing discord within or among first ammendment protected groups like the NAACP SDS SCLC BLM or PETA to mitigate the effectiveness of their first ammendment protected advocacy work that those unconstitutionally targeted groups have standing to sue the USG for remedy an relief?
… nor are they (LEO or IC employees illegally tracking innocent americans) subject to libel if they stand up and make you out as a terrorist when they know better…
Xian: When documents come to light establishing which LEO or IC employees have “labeled you a terrorist when they shoul have known better” they and their immediate supervisors should be held accountable. Cease and desist orders should issued, restraining orders obtained if they refuse to cease and desist and in cases where the harrassment and false accusations directly effect you home or family formal court sanctioned stay away orders enforced.
. ..Less prison all around is always better than more prison all around…
Agreed. Prison time is expensive and I’m sure recidivism rates would be high even for former LEO or IC EMPLOYEES. No For our purposes most future cases involving the criminal prosecution of rogue USG agencies and their employees (criminal co-conspirators) the criminal phase of the trial simply serves as simple stepping stones towards scores of far more substantive civil judgements against the US Department of Justice and the USG as a whole.
The NSA is the military, military that is engaged in 8 (at least) undeclared wars. People are being killed daily due to the intelligence provided by the NSA, the whole world is under their constant surveillance. Doesn’t Jacob Weber bear responsibility for any of that? Nuremberg defense didn’t hold in 1945 and it surely doesn’t hold today.
If Jacob Weber doesn’t like having his information revealed, may be he should think of different line of work. And no, volunteering does not offset participating in war crimes.
http://workshopheretic.blogspot.com/2014/08/i-was-going-to-do-either-post-about-way.html
https://plus.google.com/108397132244974938701/posts
http://baltimorereview.org/index.php/fall_2014/contributor/jacob-weber
So, Jacob Weber may be confronted by some of the more easily agitated crowd; good, he should be confronted for his enabling role, however benign. Or, these revelations of his private life may cause few potential NSA employees to look elsewhere to earn their living. Again, not a problem.
Philip Agee revealed the names of hundreds of CIA agents and officers back in 1975. His motivation was the level of corruption, conspiracy, assassination then (as now) prevalent at the CIA. Doesn’t the NSA participate in similarly egregious activity? Shouldn’t we follow in Mr. Agee’s footsteps?
Thank you.
Every single one of them.
So far, I don’t see the evidence. I have a very serious political problem with universal surveillance, but why should I assume one guy who translates Korean is guilty of war crimes? I assume when we’re talking Korean, we’re talking North Korean, and those bastards make our spooks look like cuddly cartoon characters. When people run concentration camps they kind of lose their right to privacy, or at least, I’m not going to worry about it. Go ahead and mock his column and his literary philosophy all you want, tell him to get a better job (if only he could have!), but it’s not right to accuse him of crimes against humanity without proof, when he might actually have been working to stop them.
What makes you think this is what “Socrates” is doing?
I think I got your point: someone who makes rope should not be incriminated because someone is hanged using them or some other gang of fellows use them to go about their breaking and entering business.
However, I don’t think it would be just about “rope making” if there is someone exclusively and actively making rope to be used to hang people who are being killed based on “statistical convictions” and this “rope maker” is actively rationalizing and “philosophizing” about killing people, so he can make more ropes
RCL
That kind of God’s-eye perspective is beyond the limits of my vision. Is the NSA really all bad? I don’t know. I don’t even know what bad is at that level. If we could pull the NSA out of its spider hole and hang it like Saddam Hussein, would we be looking at a democratic utopia or ISISland ten years down the line? Well, I can’t tell you – I can’t even tell you whether being a monster is justifiable on Judgment Day if you prevent a worse monster.
My vision is only reliable for things much nearer. If you’re at a work and see a pipe spewing water all over, you get it fixed. You don’t worry about whether fixing it will cause a blowout somewhere else. And if you’re at home and you see that your devices are being manufactured for the purpose of spying on you and being hackable remotely, you put a stop to that (or at least, you wish you could…) – you don’t ask how it will affect geopolitics. And if the spy data is being used to kill people unjustly, then you call “war criminal” all those who were knowingly involved in the plot. But those not involved in such an act, those who are no more responsible and no less deluded than half the voters at the polls, they can’t be lumped in with the rest. To do so is to invite the very kind of thinking that leads to any of the military actions that you oppose.
Wnt. Just thinking it through. I also know what I don’t know and the smarter I get the longer that list invariably becomes.
There is I suppose a case to be made as to Socrates’ innocence based on his relative proximity to a WIDE assortment of Illegal NSA actions processes or procedures. His self absolving philosophical musings did provide some comfort to his fellow constitutional criminals in the US IC some of whom (are guilty of war crimes) arranged for managing the implemention of drone strikes. Metadata analysts. Drone operators. Translators. The “clerks” responsible for maintaining and expanding the weekly list of those targeted for assassination on up the chain of command to those white house an DOD executives perusing
Tuesdays Kill list
In that sense Socrates is certainly aiding, abetting and providing comfort fellow IC employees and executive branch decisionmakers that many domestic and international human right bodies do consider guilty of war crimes.
However Socrates’ indirect moral support to stay the steady murderous course (in this drone strike assasinations example) of these policies may calm the cognitive dissonance of his fellow arm chair warriors may or may not qualify as a “war crime” as incitatus muses in Socrates case.
Extraordinary rendition (also a “war crime” but distinct from targeted assassinations) based on NSA Metadata lands innocent people
in Black Sites where additional “war crimes” are committed.
NSA metadata also targets domestic activists for JTRIG Style blacklisting and harassment for simply exercising their rights to free speech an assembly. To my mind these are “constitutional crimes” not “war crimes”.
When the NSA provides unconstitutionally collected evidence which triggers unconstitutional DEA SOD investigations employing parallel construction to cover it up before it winds up in a constitutional court thats a “constitutional crime” not a “war crime”
In Socrates’ case as the employee of one rogue government agency among many ( DOD Executive Branch, Congressional Oversight Bodies and the FISA Court to name a few) his continuing serial violations of his oath to preserve protect and defend the constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic is criminal in and of itself as is his failure to report every war criminal or constitutional criminal to the the appropriate authorities AS HE BECOMES AWARE OF THEM.
Impossible standard? Pretty simple. If you see something UNCONSTITUTIONAL do something CONSTITUTIONAL and report it to the press and anyone who’ll listen like Thomas Drake Bill Binney Daniel Ellsburg Ray Mcgovern Diane Roark and Edward Snowden did.
Socrates own assessment is he failed as a writer. For Socrates this NSA job is about making money. He clearly recognizes the immoral compromise he is making as he muses about how its in his own best interests (and ours) to willingly submit to 24/7 monitoring. For him the tradeoff is simpler because he’s just complying with what his employers expect it of him. Where Socrates criminal complicity comes into play is where he willfully disregards both the bill of rights and inherent constitutional protections Americas civilian population and Open Federal Court System have defended since the founding of the republic.
Thank you
ideals for which many people have died and assumptions under which many decent people live day in day out
Thanks again,
RCL
How different is that level of complicity from that shared by all Americans? There are indeed groups out there who would hold all Americans to blame as war criminals, but if terrorists blow up a couple of marathon runners it doesn’t feel like they’ve brought justice to the torturers of Abu Ghraib – it feels like they’re lazy, looking for an excuse to attack something without even figuring out what that really means, and it makes them more monstrous than those they fight.
If we want to oppose domestic spying, we’re not going to get anywhere if we’re not willing to look for whatever sense of good purpose excuses it in the minds of those who do it. We have to look for ways either to maintain the beneficial aspect without the privacy violation, or be up front that we are willing to actually suffer a couple of extra attacks across the country if that is the price of having a freer country. But in the case of North Korea we’re pushed toward the former, because they are indeed hostile, capable, treacherous and more than a little bit mad and somebody ought to be paying attention to what they’re up to.
Wnt:…How different is that level of complicity from that shared by all Americans…?
Xian: The american people havent taken an oath to preserve protect and defend our constitutional rights as Socrates and Edward Snowden did.
Wnt:…If we want to oppose domestic spying, we’re not going to get anywhere if we’re not willing to look for whatever sense of good purpose excuses it in the minds of those who do it…
Xian: TPTB already rolled out all their “good purposes” for domestic spying on innocent americans early on much as they did with advancing the “good purposes” for state sanctioned torture. In the first case the primary “good purpose” was preventing terrorists attacks. Not. In the second case the “good purpose” was generating real time accurate actionable intelligence for ticking time bomb scenarios. Not.
Wnt: …be up front that we are willing to actually suffer a couple of extra attacks across the country if that is the price of having a freer country…
Xian:…those who would give up essential liberty to putchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety…
I can’t really buy into the ‘oath’ idea. The problem with it is that I think the fundamental rights are universal, inalienable, God-given. No oath should be kept that would require a person to deny those rights to any person, so the decision to keep them shouldn’t depend on an oath either. I tend to think Jesus was on to something with his ‘swear not by your head’ speech. Now to be sure, I don’t want to trivialize the military sense of honor, which is something vastly important to them that I don’t pretend to understand; there is an immense nobility in their commitment to protect freedom even at great personal suffering, and we see the real-world impact of it with every single day that passes without any of our nukes changing hands over a table of money. But as one who has never gone up to such a state of honor I cannot condemn those who have fallen from it; I must limit my analysis to what I feel that they’ve done wrong that would feel wrong if I did it.
Nicely said.
The President, and every member of Congress and the Supreme Court take that same oath to preserve protect and defend the constitution of the United States.
In it our civilian leadership takes promises to protect US citizens inalienable god given rights as enumerated in the Bill of Rights. The right to free speech and freedom of association. The right against self-incrimination. The right to be secure in our person papers and effects an so on…
We have our elected officials (as distinct from military personnel) take this “oath” because history and human nature have taught us not to rely on the better angels of each and every political actor entering the public sphere. In court those who are testifying put their hand on a bible and swear to the tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Failing to do so is a federal crime called perjury.
When John Roberts administered the oath to Barack the first time put his hand on that bible he mis
.
…When John Roberts administered the oath to Barack the first time he messed it up and they had to redo it. Both of these US civilians (one elected one appointed) took the oath to preserve protect and defend our rights seriously enough to make sure they got it right for the public record. What’s the penalty for lying to a judge after swearing on a bible?
The one story you describe sounds awful. @GuyInYourMFA turned spy.
He sounds like a more successful writer than you folks give him credit for.
I agree. It seems as if there is a precedence for working fiction authors in government services
http://www.sigmaforum.org/
Great turnout with alot of thoughtful posts to one hell of an article. One can’t help but feel compassion (and embarrassment) for a guy with so little moral courage and intellectual veracity.
Every participant (private or public sector employee) in this constitutional charade should be revealed. Perhaps discrete license plate readers outside Fort Meade or near the two main intersections routing traffic in and out of the facility.
Its well past time for the American Public to Target JTRIG Style every complicit line level NSA employee like “Socrates” and “Zelda” and their complicit anonymous brethern. Unless someone has access to those SS 86’s?
Hitler would’ve loved this guy!
“This can cause great cognitive dissonance for us, because we may feel our work is being used to help the government follow a policy we feel is bad.” Socrates advised modesty. Maybe the policy is actually correct — or perhaps it is wrong but will work out in the end. “I try,” he explained, “to be a good lieutenant and good civil servant of even the policies I think are misguided.”
The NSA realizes that many of their employees have a crisis of conscience about the horrific things they have to do in their jobs, so they hired someone to try to help people justify it and resolve the moral quandary and increase morale. Seems like he saw an opportunity to be a writer again, and even though it involved doing something questionable (rationalizing the NSA’s spying to internal employees) he took it. His writing on the subject doesn’t seem very believable to me. Maybe it makes more sense to someone inside that culture.
What does he really think? Well, he probably doesn’t entirely believe in what the NSA does. But he doesn’t seem like all that principled of a person, so it probably doesn’t bother him that much. He probably just uses his bad feelings to justify the occasional affair, something along those lines.
I’m sure he didn’t try to scrub himself b/c it would be the online equivalent of slamming on your brakes when you see a speed trap. it’s lesser of evils to take your chances on delaying discovery than shoot up a rescue flare confirming your guilt.
as to his rationalization (which is all it is) it might have some merit were there not precedent (not paranoia) for abuse of such surveillance. remember, the fbi coordinated the crushing of occupy across various cities & even if you’re the biggest anti-occupy reaganite on earth this should still drive a stake in this debate (as well as phone encryption).
bottom line, yes there are legitimate “bad guys” in the world but the same agencies tasked w/dealing w/them torched their credibility by crossing the rubicon to crush legitimate domestic dissent. they abused their power so it needs to be reigned in…
Fascinating article. His justification for “complete” surveillance: that it will reach correct conclusions because it’s seeing all the data — is flawed. First of all, the NSA never will see everything. They may see a lot, but there’s still a lot that they will miss. They will miss personal interactions and internal motivations.
And the NSA is not a neutral observer. They have a bias and a political point of view and policies that they are asked to support (which may change every 4 years). When you think of how Quakers protesting the Iraq war were surveilled, listed on terrorist watch lists, and even infiltrated, you can see that the NSA can’t be trusted to make rational, fair decisions about the data that it collects.
I think the word “deity-like” was used in the article. That’s the problem right there. NSA staffers and proponents of surveillance are treating the NSA as though it’s a deity. It’s not. Nothing on earth is. It’s so strange that some of the people who support surveillance are also people who rage about the incompetence and evil of the government.
It is probably not a coincidence that this guy was formerly an evangelical Christian. Evangelical Christianity, in my personal experience, does not tolerate dissent. They’re extremely kind and helpful as long as you go along with their beliefs 100%. Question one thing one time and they turn on you. Now that’s just my personal experience; disclaimer: perhaps this is not a fair generalization.
It’s good to understand where people are coming from, so I really appreciate this article. God help us.
This comment is my editors choice.
*
Try as I may, there are only two (2) things I can discern about the various peoples of the whole wide world: 1. what they say and 2. what they do./
Lots of good ideas and questions; thanks for posting. Peter
“Socrates” redefines the word creepy. As for those who would defend this surveillance loving scumbag, think of Senator Frank Churches prophetic warning. By virtue of the help of thousands of duped NSA loyalists like “Socrates”, we are heading towards the bottom of the Totalitarian abyss at free fall speed. Personally, I’ve got no sympathy for whatever happens to this moron. In reality.. his NSA overseers were ROTFIGSL at his failure to perceive he was being used himself by virtue of Cippolini’s 5th Law of Stupidity. .. ie..
V. A stupid person is the most dangerous person in existence.
Humm … so the NSA has an in-house dear Abby-like ‘philosophers column’ written by a spook who thinks he is Socrates and GCHQ/JTRIG likes to contract w/ APA board-certified psychologits. Peachy keen.
Now, I can only presume why Peter Mass, a heretofore respected investigative journalist who could track flea spore over solid rock, would [want to] track down young SocratesNSA and give him a taste of his own medicine:
Wicked.
This,
Peter Mass, a heretofore respected investigative journalist who could track flea spore over solid rock,
needs to go in Peter’s resume forthwith. :-)
Done!
I’m thinking Now, after this humdinger piece of work, he will have to add “wicked” too :)
I love the creepy details, hopefully that will really drive the point home.
Excellent!!! The best piece by far on ‘The Intercept’
(like)
“Nobody wants to publish my fiction? The nobility of literature is a lie!”
Thought this should be in a separate post.
Reading this, I had to be curious about this fellow. And the blog was supposedly out there for anyone to find.
Well, I tried the search terms others tried and found nothing. But, RCL with that Baltimore Review thing seemed to have found him. The blurb even had a blog address in the fellow’s bio. However, when I clicked on it, it came out file not found (404).
Without giving more away, can anyone confirm if the blog is indeed still up as was indicated in the article?
Yes, it’s still there.
If you naively “click on it (a link)” your browser automatically send the “referer” as one of the request headers
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_HTTP_header_fields
so they know that hit is coming from this very page and they may be obfuscating or redirecting all requests coming from us by now ;-)
You may:
a.1) copy the link posted
a.2) open a new private browser windows (preferably even from another kind of browser)
a.3) paste the link …, or
b.1) go one step up the path
b.2) try to come down to that page …, or
c) use tor, maybe?
If you want to see exactly what is going on you can use tcpdump/wireshark to log the session …
RCL
Thanks RCL and Guy—-
I will try using one of those alternative methods. Boy, tech can employ some slick tricks.
In a way I hate being a voyeur but I am just so curious.
Great article. I had many reactions. I wanted this person’s privacy preserved but I was certainly also turned voyeur. Guess I’m just nosy about other people’s lives. The subtext of his premise – that knowing all about a person helps to understand him or her better (he may have a bit of a point) – versus the human need for privacy – versus “If it is true that we are mysteries even to ourselves — as the original Socrates suggested…” Maybe we aren’t meant to find out everything about others and ourselves by snooping. Maybe such revelations are supposed to be part of the journey, not the final destination.
“…but I was certainly also turned voyeur.”
My feeling is that when people put their personal lives and thoughts all over the Internet, it’s like they’re saying to anyone/everyone:
Look at me, look at Me, Look at ME, Oh PLEASE, LOOK AT ME!!!
Hey, the Shame Chamber –
You said: “…it’s like they’re saying to anyone/everyone:
Look at me, look at Me, Look at ME, Oh PLEASE, LOOK AT ME!!!”
Sadly, I can relate to that more than you might guess.
The author gave it away with two single facts in his article, anyway (I won’t say which, but they’re probably not the ones you might think).
If we choose to go down the rabbit hole and obtain vicarious pleasure from deanonymising people and exploring their lives in all their lurid detail — even those we disagree with — we are every bit as reprehensible as those who ‘watch over us’. It’s one thing to name them. It’s another to choose to invade their privacy. That doesn’t bring change. It turns you into one of them (whether you want to believe it or not).
Changing things doesn’t mean participating in what destroys society. It just doesn’t. It just exacerbates things.
Shame the act. Not the person.
So did you single me out to chide or have I missed it when you chided others (in fact, I think one poster above had mentioned this fellow’s NAME)?
In a way I DO have mixed feelings about the article. Is this a way of publicly shaming the guy (and some other commenters have argued: well GOOD!). Should we do that? Indeed there are arguments on both sides of that question. What I find is that we humans are curious beings. I’ve always enjoyed reading biographies and autobiographies (authorized and non -). And his blog was out there for anyone to find… although I have to admit, without some clues, would we have done so? The article really got one interested in the person, so I’m not so sure it was unnatural to want to know a bit more.
About the mentality of people running the country: Notice that this NSA employee is a libertarian. Anyone want to guess how many “self-professed” communists or anarchists work at the NSA? Dollars to donuts it’s zero.
The culture of the NSA has changed. He’s ‘now a registered Democrat’, according to the author. Essentially, a self declared Socialist. All of Hitler’s SS were necessarily members of the NAZI party. There’s little room for independent thinking if you’re to be an effective tool of the elites.
That joke’s been around since FDR. No longer amuses much.
Your writings were rejected also?I can see why,bad sourcing of facts,similar to the subject of the article,in a forced narrative of BS.
Sounds like he sold out, sold himself out, and in justifying it to himself has damaged his moral compass. I feel sorry for him.
P.S. Dude if you’re reading this, you write, create, or indulge your artistic proclivities just to do it. Make yourself happy. Don’t try to make anyone else happy, or make money from it. Do it because it needs done.
We passed upon the stair, we spoke of was and when
Although I wasn’t there, he said I was his friend
Which came as some surprise I spoke into his eyes
I thought you died alone, a long long time ago
Oh no, not me
I never lost control
You’re face to face
With The Man Who Sold The World
I laughed and shook his hand, and made my way back home
I searched for form and land, for years and years I roamed
I gazed a gazely stare at all the millions here
We must have died alone, a long long time ago
Who knows? not me
We never lost control
You’re face to face
With the Man who Sold the World
Peter Maass: Would you rather be a journalist or a “blog spy”???
Here’s an example. I told Socrates, in our phone call, that I had read his blog. I assumed that once our conversation was finished he would go online and take down the blog, scrupulously doing what a smart surveiller would do once he realized he was the target rather than targeter — try to scrub the public domain of his existence to inhibit surveillance of him.
Yet the blog stayed up. In fact, he continued posting — once about a blockbuster movie series he disliked, another time about a short story he generally liked. I asked McNeill, the research editor, what she made of this, and she was surprised, too. Although I could not spy on Socrates in the way the NSA spies on its targets, I had done a lot and thought I understood him.
Looking at the record of the original Socrates (the one from ancient Greece), it’s actually pretty neutral on surveillance issues. I don’t think the Intercept’s Peter Maass should have assumed the original Socrates would object to surveillance of the innocent. Socrates’s political philosophy seems to lack some of the ideas developed in later millennia. He might well have opposed some of the Bill of Rights, including the Fourth Amendment right against unreasonable searches — and the idea of freedom of the press was so foreign to ancient Greece that it’s hard to guess his position on it.
To give another example of Socrates’s political views, when a dictatorial government wanted to execute a man named Leon without trial and ordered Socrates and others to fetch him, Socrates ignored the order. Socrates knew that his disobedience would become known to the government and would probably result in Socrates himself being placed on the kill list; he avoided death only because the government collapsed shortly afterwards. This episode should have led Socrates to conclude that governments shouldn’t have the power to gather information on who is and isn’t willing to go along with their abuses of power. But that wasn’t the conclusion Socrates drew. Instead, Socrates thought he was able to live as long as he did because a god had sent him to help his fellow citizens, and the god didn’t want him to die too early. The American idea of having constitutional protection for liberty, rather than relying only on divine protection, is something Socrates never thought of. And Socrates’ historical legacy includes not only those who were inspired by him to protect rights, but also some more vicious thinkers who exploited Socrates’s poorly-developed political philosophy as a way to justify giving excessive powers to government. Socrates’s own disciple Plato, as well as the Straussian movement in our own time, took this rights-destroying path.
Socrates’s strength as a thinker wasn’t the idea of constitutional rights, which was developed long after his time. Instead, his strength was in recognizing that people in general, and governments in particular, overestimate their own knowledge. He would have been quick to see the mistake made by the NSA’s “Socrates”, who assumed that a government that can conduct full surveillance will make the right decisions. The original Socrates would have recognized that gathering exabytes of data on the world is still quite likely to lead to foolish decisions, producing leaders who are eager to impose their will but cause disasters because they don’t really know what’s good. The NSA’s “Socrates”, who is much less of a thinker, can’t look seriously at this danger. He tells those in power over him, “Yes, I want you to have lots of info about me and everyone else, that way you’ll do good.” Maybe his core assumption is that by consenting to surveillance and showing his own loyalty, he at least will be treated well. But do his leaders really want to devote effort to giving him a good life? Do they know enough about how to give him a good life? Does he himself know what a good life is? He’s too wrapped up in flattery, servility and conformity to face these issues, and it’s no wonder that his life is in fact miserable. Those who have the courage to defy injustice, like the Greek Socrates, have a better life. And we are the ones who continue the centuries-old task of defending and developing rights.
This is an amazing and thoughtful comment. Kind of a Platonic ideal of what a comment can be, and who a member of the commenting community can be. You’ve explored issues that I didn’t have the time or space to go into, nor the background. Thank you again.
I think, you are …
from your perspective not from his/theirs (ancient Greeks’ Zeitgeist)
Well, in those times there was no press as technology to begin with, so I wonder how it could be free or not.
The written word didn’t even mean anything close to what it means to us. First, “reading” in those times was not a societal given at all; second, “reading” meant -reading off-. Reading silently (as we do in our times), was something scribes imposed as a necessity in reading rooms much later. In fact, his troops found scandalously crazy having Alexander (who lived 2+ generations later) read to himself in front of them (they may have kind of seen it as if their general was masturbating in front of them).
To ancient people “God” was an idea which was like “money” to us, some sort of “logical connective” to their understanding of the dynamics of things. IMO, when Socrates said “god had sent him to help his fellow citizens” he was saying that it was his moral calling doing it at greater risk than Henry Thoreau’s support of radical abolitionist militia leader John Brown.
in the same way that he could not have thought of a society in which people stupidly enslaved themselves to computer devices, which is used by their government to control and mess with them as if they, each lived in individual prison cells. If still living Stasi officers salivate at the thought of it and find downright amazing the level of USG surveillance, what makes you think poor Socrates could have thought of it?
Let’s not get into what you call the “‘American’ idea of having constitutional protection for liberty” …
and questioning authority while he was at it, to the point of facing a vindictive jury which tried him openly and publicly (what?, these “smart” Greek people didn’t have “secret” courts and “secret” interpretations of laws?!?) and dying for his principles. In those, times philosophers were not distinguished academic celebrities but quite a bit more like reporters in Mexico today. They were confronting authority big time.
Plato was more of a “Great Lord! They killed my teacher!” pussy cat, he was not morally prowling around and questioning the powers that be like his teacher. Yet, as part of his Socratic dialogues he penned “Meno’s or Learner’s Paradox”, one of the most insightful philosophies/consciousness studies ever written which has been read, interpreted and discussed in many ways, in which he used a slave boy for his demonstration (in those times that was a huge affront) and made visceral and excessive fun of the higher classes of Greek plutocracy of merchants and the military.
I think in general you are being way too simplistic or you should keep improving the time machine aspects of your mind reading skills.
Jung explained to us thoroughly “they were not us centuries ago …” Merchants during the renaissance wedged for themselves a social strata among the clergy and the royalty by being some sort of open source fellows who would share their double entry books and be about -business- and open accountability. Compare that with those folks in Wall Street who are about “business as usual” and layers and layers of secrecy. Jewish people killed in the holocaust may not quite know what to make of what “their descendants” do to Palestinian people. The founding fathers would be revolting in their graves if they knew that a “constitutional lawyer” has thoroughly wiped his black @ss with the USG constitution …
Satyagraha,
RCL
Plato’s Meno …
http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/meno.html
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meno
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youtube.com/watch?v=95GjK0p582g
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// __ Philosophy Core Concepts: Can Virtue Be Defined in Plato’s Meno?
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RCL
I agree with most of what you said on ancient Greeks, though you made a few errors. And surveillance-free communication played a key role in Plato’s life — once when Plato was held against his will by the dictator Dionysius, the only reason Plato was able to escape was because he was able to send a message to a friend in another city who helped him leave. Still, Plato’s own political philosophy didn’t respect individuals’ right to communicate in private. You’re right that Plato’s philosophy is frequently great on non-political issues, but in thinking about politics he often wasn’t at his best. I have to criticize your statement that philosophers like Plato were more like reporters in Mexico today than distinguished academic celebrities. Most Greek philosophers were somewhere in between those two extremes, and plenty of them (like Plato and Gorgias) were a little more towards the “distinguished celebrity” end. And let’s not forget that the original Socrates was a slaveholder like most Greek philosophers were (Plato’s “Protagoras” shows a visitor banging on Socrates’s door until “somebody”, a slave, opened it).
Your story about Alexander the Great is an urban legend. Alexander did read silently, but there’s no record of his troops thinking anything was scandalous or crazy about the way he read. Although Greeks were more likely to read things aloud than we are, it wasn’t too unusual for them to read silently. For an online debunking of the story of Alexander reading in front of his army, see here:
http://www.theguardian.com/books/2006/jul/29/featuresreviews.guardianreview27
Or if you have a way to read non-open-access academic journals, check out A. K. Gavrilov’s “Techniques of reading in classical antiquity” (Classical Quarterly 47:1, 1997, p. 56-73). At the end he gives a long list of recorded evidence about Greeks and Romans’ ability to read silently. Your story about Alexander reading in front of the army is the kind of thing Gavrilov would have had to mention if it was in the ancient records, but in fact the story isn’t recorded, which is why Gavrilov didn’t mention it.
But in any case, you and I are basically on the same side, I don’t think we disagree on anything important. And although I’ve read Plato (sometimes in Greek), I appreciate you sending out the links below, and I’m glad you like his stuff.
imagine historians reading about our times in 2 centuries (if we get that far out) and running into phrases such as “we are fighting for freedom and democracy”, “the rule of law” … being verbalized by USG. What the preposterous f#ck does USG care about freedom, democracy, the rule of law …?
RCL
You misunderstood the point about the American constitution. Our 18th-century constitution certainly isn’t perfect, and its list of rights is incomplete (as the 9th Amendment wonderfully admits), but the way it dealt with rights was a major and influential advance even if more remains to be done. And to judge by your comments, you seem to see a lot of good in the constitution too. So it’s not reasonable when you react to my praise for this “American idea” by criticizing wars and other abuses carried out by US government leaders. That’s switching topics from the constitution to our current leaders, and as you admit, our leaders are violating the constitution in abusing their power. My point was just that the American ideas in the Bill of Rights were an improvement on earlier political philosophy like Socrates’s and Plato’s views.
And although you give credit to the founding fathers, I think a lot of the credit for the Bill of Rights belongs not to the leaders of the time but instead to ordinary Americans of the 1700s who pressured their leaders into respecting rights more. Most of the founding fathers didn’t originally want to have a Bill of Rights. It was a truly American idea — an example of successful pressure from below which led to improvements in the supreme law of the land. So yes, you’re right that our leaders’ actions are the opposite of “fighting for freedom and democracy”, but anyone who thinks that discredits the American ideas in the Bill of Rights doesn’t understand how freedom is protected in the first place. The rights that matter most are introduced by the people, and there’s a continuing effort led by elites to weaken those rights while claiming to serve democracy. So we need to keep protecting those rights against unconstitutional violations like mass surveillance. And we also owe it to ourselves to develop our political principles further, to leave much less room for these abuses in future. That’s why our 18th-century constitution had to allow for amendments; we haven’t figured out everything yet about how to deal with government, but we’re working on it.
Thank you very much Randall Rose!
Yes, I cited Alberto Manguel when I said that passage about Alexander and thank you for the (guardian? ;-)) article, but it didn’t change my mind. I do corpora research and semiotics and I have read quite a bit and I think a lot about such topics. When I teach civics I explain why it is very important to separate the constitution (some sort of general spirit of the law) from the actual law which technicalities must be codified in a practically enforceable way. I discuss in classes Lau vs. Nichols 1974 to show how laws can be changed based on public reinterpretations and discussions based on the letter and spirit of the constitution and how we all benefited from that change even though it was the Chinese people the ones who fought it all the way to the Supreme.
Unfortunately, I am an Einzelgaenger and don’t have access to such scholarly papers behind pay walls. If possible, could I somehow get a copy of AK Gavrilov paper?
I do think that in those times the norm was talking and interpersonal exchange of here and now information in a sense this is why ancient people gave so much importance to rhetoric (part of the trivium) and most tablets contain short sentences about who owes what to whom. They didn’t write and read as we do because the technological aspects of writing and the press were still to cumbersome. If I am forced to make an analogy I would that writing in those times was like computer programming code today. Some people understand it, most people don’t. Even in the Middle Ages, people waited and pay attention to the reading of “the news” in bars and lounges and the royalty would use heralds to spread their words.
There were a few things that I found shaky in the guardian article, but I will have to think about it before getting back to you.
About “American ideas”, they way I quoted it was “’American’ ideas”. Most (all?) Latin American, Caribbean and even Canadian people have issues with the term “America(n)”, which as the Monroe doctrine went: “American for Americans” (Roosevelt liked that one liner very much ;-)), actually to USG quite literally meant, “-we- own the whole continent” … and to non U.S. citizen living in the rest of the continent this was not just language usage (the least to say). Calling you “American” actually feels to me like I am making fun of you. As if the French would start calling themselves “‘the’ Europeans”
I think you are still comparing apples and oranges and you may do that based on the fact that they are both fruit. I think ancient Greeks have been one of the smartest people who have ever walked the Earth.
By the way, as I understand things it was the Romans the ones who institute such things as the Census (which in those times people fought big time (are we all getting more stupid?)) as a way of controlling peoples and snitching on a state wide way. It was a snitch the one who did rat Jesus (in the Biblical account)
Do you know of such thing as a history of surveillance?
RCL
Hope someone knows where to find a history of surveillance. There must be people who’ve written on the subject but I don’t know who’s done it well. Keep asking around, maybe on other Intercept comment sections — this one may well be closed soon. I’d be interested to hear what you find.
Your concern about using “Americans” for US people only makes some sense. Of course it’s hard to change a language and especially a people’s name for themselves — so I don’t think you can realistically expect to change it. Still, thanks for helping me see your point.
If you send me your email, I may be able to recommend a college library near you that subscribes to Classical Quarterly and allows people to walk in and read. I might not have time to talk much though. In any case, since you have Manguel’s book, check the footnote that Manguel gives for his Alexander story. His evidence is a genuine Greek text that does show Alexander reading silently, but the evidence he quotes doesn’t do anything to support his idea that Alexander’s troops found silent reading odd.
Dear Randall Rose:
First I would offer my apologies for posting messages half asleep. Most of the times I am too emotional when I comment about these matters and on top of that languages/saying things right have never been my forte and it is as if 5 minds inside of one are bidding for, fighting for the word to be written.
An email address you could use is: tekmonk2005@yahoo.com
I will confirm to you that I got the article. Thank you
Now I have more time to pay attention to you as I should
Even Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn who had the KGB/Staling up his @ss big time, suffering from cancer and writing at times from cancer wards and labour camps “without benefit of pen or paper”, “spending his nights secretly engaged in writing” and “scarcely daring to allow any of his close acquaintances to read anything he had written because he feared this would become known” …
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Solzhenitsyn
did have some of that thing they used to call privacy.
This is an inference about his cr@ppy, classist and elitist idea of government? Or, did he explicitly say so?
I myself, as I am sure most of the hot heads that frequent TI, would have been imprisoned in his “Republic”, but I also see somewhat the good in him. He emphasized the importance of having “virtuous”, “benevolent” leaders. I think Fidel Castro’s communist dictatorship in close to Plato’s ideas.
I said “-quite a bit- more” like reporters in Mexico today and yes, there will always be a bit of everything, but most philosophers in those times were not what we think of them now. To me, they were more (way more!) than Sartre and Slavoj Žižek.
The ruling class in ancient Greece didn’t like a bit Herodotus’ interpretation of history as some human endeavor they liked seeing themselves as the proxies of God in Earth … True people have always become targets of “the powerful”. From ancient Greek thinkers to Galileo and Solzhenitsyn, who said:
The First Circle (1968): “For a country to have a great writer … is like having another government. That’s why no régime has ever loved great writers, only minor ones.”
which fits well our “Socrates”
Again, what in those times meant “having slaves” meant is not the same of what it meant during Thomas Jefferson’s times and it means now.
Look at all the foods, stuff and appliances that is around you at home and in your workplace. Do you know “the story behind those things”? Do you really believe a dollar amount rewrites the stories behind them?
I teach folks who come straight out of prison and as part of their parole contract, they must enroll in HSE classes. All that seems to be in their minds is: a) I hate the NYPD, b) slavery is the reason I/we live like this, c) their parole officers. So they think writing an essay is repeating and paraphrasing “I hate the NYPD”. I tell them that this is not an essay, but a rant. That I have the NYPD too, but if all I can say is “I have the NYPD”, “I hate ‘white’ people because they enslaved us …” I should not be able to try to write an essay about those topics.
Once my class went like:
Me/Teacher: What would you call working 12 hours a day, without vacation, medical insurance, without any security and at times without even pay?
Them/Students: ” … that’s slavery!”
T: What if I tell you that more than 5% of the U.S. labor force are “slaves”? Specially in states like California, Texas, Florida, New York, New Jersey and Illinois where 60% of the “slaves” work?
pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/07/24/5-facts-about-illegal-immigration-in-the-u-s/
S: Looked at me quizzically like that is T up to now?
T: Jenn, who do you think picked the tomatoes and cut and packed the meat of the sandwich you were just eating?
Jenn; gives me a blank stare …
T: What about all those “illegal immigrants” working in the U.S. with no rights whatsoever?
S: Ach, (in laughters and exclamations of disbelief) Mr. Lopez this is not the same … They don’t count …
T: Why not? This is exactly how “white” people used to think of us “black” folks.
S: Go into a collective silent, grave, ashamed mood …
S: But, Mr. Lopez, they come here because they want. We were forcibly brought as slaves …
T: Well, right there you see ways to rationalize things and you can rationalize anything, absolutely anything! “White” people told us “we could go back to Africa” and some tried just that … The Europeans who invaded the Americas said the Indians were not the owners of the lands where they lived because they didn’t have “legal” property papers to the land and they say that the slaveholder was the “rightful” and “legal” owner of the children of slaves …
T: Wrong is wrong, folks! …
As usual comedians are much better at explaining to people “complex” concepts ;-)
// __ Gap Unveils New ‘For Kids By Kids’ Clothing Line
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youtube.com/watch?v=OXb3dzNLebk
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We used to read as musicians “read” scores
Let me honestly tell you that I envy you. Unfortunately my three Ls are all European. I take it as some sort of Überfremdung, curse, chronic disease …
More like an improvement on the crappy French Monarchy
Yes, we the people were part of it, also as a way to oppose controlling b#llsh!t by the British and the cr@ppy French Monarchy, but I would also give credit to that French comedian who viscerally made fun of the French Aristocracy and Jefferson enjoyed and read thoroughly. What was his name again?
I have found interesting tidbits about those matters, but not a book dedicated to those matters
I am not trying to change anyone’s mind with my terminology. It is just that it feels weird as hell to accept certain terms and notions. So weird, that it even feels as if you are stopping being yourself by accepting them. For example, I profess most respect for Manning and I remember when he was being sentenced that I read some news about him being homosexual. I found so, but so crazy (marginally disrespectful) that I could not believe it myself. She simply told me “probably ‘she’ wants to be like that from now on …” I could no believe her: What is the point of spreading such news right when he is being sentence to 35 years in prison? Since then we have had discussions to no end about the idea that because I wear a wig and pretend to talk like Henry V and even change my name to his, people should “respect” me and accept I am indeed Henry V … I tell her he is just a man who has (quirurgically and mechanically not really biologically) changed his sex, changed his name … that that doesn’t turn him into a woman …
Thank you very much Rose,
RCL
I disagree about the importance of having “virtuous and benevolent” leaders. You say it’s good that Plato kept stressing that; but actually, the idea that leaders must be good is a bit overrated. It’s emphasized most strongly in some badly-designed political theories, and although it’s not a useless idea, it tends to end up being an excuse for leaders to abuse their power. Better political theories don’t dwell on the idea of leaders’ goodness so much, they just mention it briefly. The best political theories focus more on how everyone should be able to develop good things and “pursue happiness” in their different ways, so people can coexist despite differences. Typically a government does many things that impede this process rather than following it, which is why good political theories focus on keeping leaders restrained and accountable. So Plato’s mistaken about what the role of being “virtuous and benevolent” is. He thinks being virtuous and benevolent is for the idealized leader who makes others follow his views, but in reality the way to do good is more about making room for those around you to pursue good in different ways, and that’s called being a citizen. (Teaching works in a kind of similar way too.)
There are strong restrictions on communication in Plato’s “Laws”; citizens are almost never allowed to talk to foreigners, and heretics have their communications cut almost completely. If you don’t have time to read all of the “Laws”, read book 12: the younger members of the elite “nocturnal council” act as something like a surveillance force.
The French comedian you mention may be Voltaire, and you may mean Pirandello’s Enrico IV rather than Henry V (though the scene before Henry V’s accession when Falstaff pretended to be him was better). I don’t agree when you say changing gender is crazy. The idea that it’s more acceptable for people who are biologically male to behave and be treated in some ways, and more acceptable for people who are biologically female to behave and be treated in other ways, is not necessarily what does best for a given individual person. These differing expectations that surround men or women aren’t based on any core of what the individual is; many of these differing expectations are either mere social convention or represent the average of a given gender rather than what a particular individual is like. Not only our own society now, but other societies in the past too, have sometimes decided, when an individual doesn’t feel comfortable with the expectations attached to his or her biological sex, that he or she should be treated the way the other sex is for purposes of social expectations. That seems to work better for some people. I think it’s important to let one’s expectations about gender be challenged without feeling that one is being disrespected. That’s because in the end, the expectations you or I have about another person’s gender are good when they help the other person, but usually not when they get in the person’s way. I suppose that’s a key lesson from the women’s rights movement. I think if you look at things honestly you see that both cisgender and transgender people are sometimes being a bit untrue to themselves; there’s often some untruthfulness about a cisgender person’s absorbing and fitting into society’s expectations for his or her sex, just as there can be some untruthfulness in a transgender person’s preferring society’s expectations for the other sex. But for some individuals, being transgender may be more true to themselves. I haven’t made up my mind for sure, but it’s what seems right when I talk with transgender people.
Basically, when someone like Manning wants to be treated as transgender, that’s an example of telling us to accept that a person’s surface features and how we interpret them may have pointed us in the wrong direction for seeing who the inner person is. That’s the sort of thing that’s uncomfortable for us to hear, but it’s often true, and absorbing the truth of things like this is a step forward in gender AND in other aspects of life. And it’s not a case of one person pretending to be a different person as you suggest.
In a time in which despotism and tyranny were all too common, I should have added
I would agree
Almost exactly like some of our tyrants. Castro, like Plato advised owns the media, but he doesn’t kill reporters like it happens in other places
It wasn’t Voltaire. I will try to remember his name
The mere act isn’t. It is a surgical intervention like any other. What I find crazy is actually believing that such a surgical intervention would turn you into a woman or a man. Because, biologically speaking, there is way more than having boobs or a dick to being a woman or man. For example, you will not be able to lactate. Maybe I see things way too biologically and to me physical reality is what -very basically- defines things. I really don’t care about people’s sexual orientation or whatever language people use to talk about those matters. In fact, I find even talking about this boring, stupid. I just used it as an example of (what I believe to be) the proper use of language.
things are very complicated and I know there are even biological (hormonal) and neurobiological dimensions of those gender issues. I have read electromagnetically inducing the septal area motivates feminine feelings or such a thing
My intention is not being disrespectful at all and I don’t care about whatever people do with “their @ss”. To me race, gender and such matters are individually private matters. For example, I don’t like girls who are fat or smoke. This is how I feel you can lecture me to no end and you won’t be able to change my feelings. I would not mistreat someone for being fat in any way and if you smoke I will just go away from you, but I would not be motivated to intimate a fat girl even if we are alone in an island for 50 years. In my opinion, it is not even distasteful, but irresponsible and even spiritually base (“being a consumer! …”). To me, someone who follows the Franciscan creed, living below your means is liberating, even when it comes to money. Money will never be entirely yours.
I have had bisexual girlfriends (who are still my very good friends). My current girlfriend (whom, in addition to not smoking and not being fat ;-), I love for many other reasons), was a “lesbian avenger” from the times and in place where that that wasn’t cool:
// __ The Lesbian Avengers Eat Fire, Too
~
youtube.com/watch?v=pYC6S0a0PNI
~
she told me she “lost contact with men” so she told me not to get too hopeful, get ready to get dumped any time … at some point I would show up at her place and find her in my sweaty tee-shirts. She told me she was wearing them because she missed me so much …
Once we show up at an anniversary, book release where many of her friends were celebrating and they surely gave me looks (some very obviously of misunderstandings ;-)). As we walked out I told her: now your are a traitor. She told me: Well, yes! ;-)
All I am talking about is cross-dressing doesn’t turn you into a man or a woman. To me this is very basic. The Henry V example I gave is exactly how I see it.
I couldn’t grasp what you said at all even after reading it three times. But I think girlfriend will explain to me what do you mean. If I ask her sweetly ;-). She has told me she gave up on me, because I worship my mother/mothers/women in general, so it creates so much cognitive dissonance in me that I find it crazy and contemptuous even subconsciously.
When I walk on the streets (here in NYC where people constantly bump on to you) I like to notice right away if someone is a woman to whom I would always yield. At times it is virtually impossible even with my students and that makes me anxious. I can’t help it.
RCL
Real simple: the way we treat others is often based on how they look, sound, etc. It often doesn’t reflect how the other person is in their most important concerns. We treat people that way, often because it’s convenient or comfortable for us — but the other person may not like it! When a man lets a woman pass on the sidewalk because she’s female, the woman may feel it’s nice and compatible with who she is, or she may feel it’s annoying and far from reflecting the core of what she is. Are there cases where one’s biological sex clashes with one’s deepest concerns and inner life? Perhaps, but I guess that’s not the issue I find most important. What seems more important is that often one’s deepest concerns and inner life clash, not with one’s biological sex itself, but with the expectations that most others have based on one’s biological sex. And when someone lets you know that your expectations of them are off in that way, it may not be pleasant to hear, because they’re telling you that their biological sex isn’t as reliable as you thought in indicating what expectations to have with them. But even though it’s not pleasant to hear, that rebuke to your expectations is often factually accurate and ethically right. The expectations we have with people based on their biological sex are often mere social convention, or else reflect the average of a given sex without being accurate for each particular individual. I feel that when a person gets others to not jump to too many conclusions about him or her based on conspicuous things like biological sex, and gets others to relate to him or her in ways that better reflect the person’s inner life and deepest concerns, that’s great. Transgender people do that for the kinds of expectations that are based on being male or female, but it needs to be done for other kinds of expectations too.
Can people change their biological sex? Not really with currently conceivable technology, at most you can change a few sex-related things about your body. So when Chelsea Manning asks to be called “she” with a new name, she’s not changing her biological sex. And when an immigrant changes his inherited family name, he’s not changing his biological ancestry, nor even necessarily hiding it.
Can a person, without changing his or her biological sex, say that others’ expectations of his or her sex don’t fit the person’s inner life and deepest concerns, and say that these expectations need to be changed? I think that’s pretty clearly reasonable. When a person does this by asking to be called “she” instead of “he” or vice versa, with the corresponding new set of expectations, it may be wrenching to others, but it’s important to see when this is more reasonable for the individual person involved. It’s more reasonable not because there’s something wrong or unfitting about the person’s biological sex in itself, but because the expectations others have relating to sex are themselves less than accurate for that individual. (And the fact that people do sometimes have a lot of unhelpful expectations based on seeing one’s biological sex is a reason why some transgender people surgically change their bodily appearance to evoke a new and more helpful set of expectations, without necessarily rejecting their biological sex.) So maybe this is saying that you shouldn’t always have so many expectations based on people’s biological sex.
Of course there are some people who do desire to change themselves, as a biological organism, into the other biological sex, which isn’t satisfactorily achievable today. That raises its own issues, though if it was possible I doubt there’s anything wrong with it. I think you were talking more about how impossible it is to change one’s biological sex. But to me, it’s more interesting that people who don’t try to change their biological sex and don’t even have surgery still can be transgender because they see how wrong our expectations based on sex are for them.
“gets others to relate to him or her in ways that better reflect the person’s inner life and deepest concerns” …
I think I am getting it now. People use their looks as some sort of ads. Thank you.
I still find all of that as an incredible overwork and a waste of time to just entertain an illusion. But well, we all entertain more or less socially sanctioned illusions one way or the other. A good example is our “Socrates”. Also, I don’t see sex, gender, race, ethnicity … as political, moral matters at all. To me it is like making politics out of people’s sh!tting or peeing habits. When I put on pants to go out I don’t see myself at all as making a political statement of any kind and even though I see there is a societal reasons why I put on pants and not a skirt or a kurta, I don’t see myself at all as better or worse than those who do. To me it is also quite a bit like people who tax their minds with such cr@p probably can’t find nothing better to think, feel about in their minds.
Instead of all this “gender” nonsense, for example, a true issue would be: why do women in the U.S. get paid 20-25 cents on the dollar?!? (and I would bet it is even worse in other countries)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_pay_gap_in_the_United_States
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/04/14/on-equal-pay-day-everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-gender-pay-gap/
What I found totally crazy in the case of Manning is that the U.S. media started to spread those ideas at the time he was being sentenced. I remembered the NY Times was saying that the 9/11 terrorist were homosexual (the point being!). I thought they had started the same kind of weird sh!t with Manning. Girlfriend told me: maybe not. I still find very disrespectful that they inundated the news with this gender thing instead of talking about the real issues for which he was being sentenced, namely: those f#cking “embedded” “journalists” were not doing their job.
~
By the way, the French comedian who used to viscerally criticized the French Monarchy I meant was Montesquieu
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montesquieu
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Letters
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/18th-century_French_literature
The philosophers were optimists, and they saw their mission clearly; they did not simply observe, but agitated ceaselessly for the achievement of their goals.
The important works of the philosophers belonged to a variety of different genres, such as the tale illustrating a particular philosophical point;(Zadig (1747) or Candide (1759), both by Voltaire in 1759); or satire on French life disguised as letters from an exotic country (Lettres persanes by Montesquieu in 1721); or essays (The Spirit of the Laws by Montesquieu in 1748, An Essay on Tolerance by Voltaire in 1763; The Social Contract by Rousseau in 1762; The Supplement to a voyage of Bougainville by Diderot, or The History of the Two Indias by the Abbé Guillaume-Thomas Raynal).
~
So in that sense, those French authors also helped the ideological mindset conducive to the drafting of the U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights
RCL
Hey!! What about my conspiracy theory? Has anybody checked the Rude Pundit’s alibis?
http://rudepundit.blogspot.com/
Please stop spreading such nasty stories.
This “Socrates” dipshit was definitely the right choice for the job of “internal propagandist.” From his writings it’s all too clear that he was born to lick boots and kiss ass; to follow immoral orders and set an example for other pussies to do the same; to never be his own man, but to live out his existence as a member of the US federal Borg. Such creatures would be pitiable if they weren’t guilty of crimes against the rest if us.
“Socrates,” if you’re reading this, let me tell you something. All of us will die someday. No one escapes the Reaper (the real one, not your cowardly murder machine). For all I know, I might die tomorrow in agony, and you might die in peace after living 100 years; but I STILL wouldn’t trade places with you. You know why? Because when I die, at least I’ll know that I lived free, untamed, and defiant, with knee unbowed. You will live and die as a coward and a servant, and I hope you rot in hell. FUCK YOU.
Holy smokes Mike T tell us how you really feel. That rivaled some of my more pointed comments over the years. Bravo.
I didn’t lay into the guy personally too much because I figured he simply doesn’t have the moral or cognitive horsepower to understand that what he is doing is unethical if not immoral. He actually appears, to one degree or another, to believe he’s doing something moral or ethical for the greater good. Or at least he’s convinced himself he is. Maybe somewhere down the road he’ll come to Jesus so to speak. One can only hope anyway.
Not that I’m opposed to your rhetorical style to urge him on the way.
That’s some backhand ya got there :)
In one of the supporting docs, Socrates mentions that he both selects and analyzes data; he’s writing those tasking scripts to Noogle folks and then he decides if the behavior is suspect. Can’t say enough about how bad that is for us; fuck that kapo.
What an article, and what an experiment…I’d even call it beautiful. The thing is, I feel bad for the guy…initially because hey, a blog that is very anti-the thing he does is reporting on him, and then less because this person has after all found a way to rationalize what he does, and then more again because he is/was clearly frustrated with life, and probably also because I’m in the wannabe-writer-in-crisis boat myself and let me tell you, I feel those feels and this particular boat ain’t a luxury cruise. Your experiment worked brilliantly in showing me how easy it is to get invested in someone’s outcome without even knowing anything concrete about them.
And now I’m wondering…is this my tendency towards being way too empathetic towards others, or is it indeed voyeurism–the same drive that gets me invested in a TV soap opera about people who don’t really exist? Very good food for thought, I’ll be chewing away all night at least.
And I feel compelled to say that it strikes me as so very heart-wrenching that this Socrates seems to have approached his writing career by waiting for others to, in essence, give him permission to write or be published. The grad program, the editors and contests…the blog is a step in the right direction, as is refusing to scrap it after this article. My heroes tend to be artists who just couldn’t stop creating even when life or other people got in the way. This is what the Internet is for, Socrates…find your realm, work it, expand, repeat. Self-publish or blog or just hang out in writing forums, actively participating…whatever you do, man, don’t let that spark go out.
Excellent comment. Thanks for posting it. And good luck (in the good way) with *your* writing.
Did anyone else find this guy’s blog? Wasn’t hard after using a google search containing the authors mentioned plus a few other terms. Hint: it’s on blogspot.
Yes. Read comments from the bottom up for that convo.
A Great and necessary piece of writing. Is Kim Jong-un a rare personality or a kind of control freak mentality that can happen anywhere? “Glorious Writer!” featuring D. Rodman might be a faithchanger.
I’m not sure, if I was choosing a nom-de-plume for a major venture, that I would have used an ill-omened name like Socrates. He had problems with the powers-that-be, and wound up getting unfriended in a rather final way.
It’s sort of like buying your dream sailboat and naming it the Edmund Fitzgerald.
(See earlier comments. I did a search on “Socrates'” prose and came up with Rousseau. Maybe that would have been a better avatar, given that he may have been using the man’s talking points. And his Confessions could be rather interesting.)
“…sort of like buying your dream sailboat and naming it the Edmund Fitzgerald.”
At least you would make an end that would be worth a song…
I knew a guy who bought a boat named the Sultana. Today at least we have wikipedia.
Mariners have a sense of ill omen, and that includes names. Sultana, Edmund Fitzgerald, Titanic, Empress of Ireland, Hood, Mary Celeste, Sarah Palin, HMS Invincible.
Sorry typo below
Should say “There’s no difference btwn. those who can’t read, and those who don’t”.
Here is my 2 cents on the surveillance issue.
Background — The focus of my work at late is domestic violence/violence against women (DV/VAW) as human rights violations, and the obligation of the State to protect — with concentration on intl. divorce & custody disputes. So since govts. are suppose to ‘protect’, I am logically asking the US Dept. of State/Amer. Consulates to do their jobs and ‘protect’ Americans living abroad (from DV & Legal abuse from divorce lawyers – see Divorce Corp movie — right on the nail). — State Dept. does not agree w/ me see so I am lobbying Congress (see http://warondomesticterrorism.com/category/lobby_for_americans_living_abroad-2013/ & http://warondomesticterrorism.com/category/defensor_del_pueblo_4-14_english/). And, now I am helping Maria Jose Carrascosa (https://life.indiegogo.com/fundraisers/1390059).
MY 2 CENTS:–
I have made enough ‘noise’ on the Internet, that at present I am ‘a bee in the govt’s bonnet’ & I am sure that they are spying on my communications by now (or will be soon)
Now if all of the govt. people who were spying on me would read the mail I have been sending to their colleagues at the State Dept. AND DO WHAT I AM TELLING THEM TO DO (UPHOLD INTL. & FEDERAL LAW), then I would stop bugging them, I could help the 7M American living abroad (~4-5M DV victims), I could (help) reduce (& maybe eliminate) the 2000 new cases of intl. child abduction the State Dept. deals with each yr. (Consulates would get the credit w/little work), and everyone could move on with their lives. Sounds simple. N’est pas.
BUT, INSTEAD (since govt. officials are functionally illiterate) I will keep on telling the State Dept (in no uncertain terms) what they must do to comply with the law, they will continue to do nothing (not even read my ltrs.). They will surely tell their ‘friends’ over at NSA that I am a belligerent, rebel-rouser, that I won’t go away and need spying on bcse. I am a security threat (LOL check out my photo), and they will hack into my computer to spy on me. The joke here is that they will spy on me to read the letters that I am trying to get the federal govt. to read in the first place, but the smuck won’t read for the life of them. Einstein said, and I concur “There’s no difference btwn. those you can’t read, and those who don’t”.
So I guess the moral of my story is — If you want your govt. to read your mail, you first have to get them to spy on you, and hack into your computer!!
WOULDN’T IT BE MORE EFFECTIVE TO TEACH FEDERAL EMPLOYEES HOW TO READ RATHER THAN HACK?!?
And, to all of you at the Intercept — Chapeau! This world needs more people like you in it. As Einstein said “The world is a dangerous place, not for the evil people, but for those who do nothing about them.”
“…and the obligation of the State to protect…” there is no such obligation. Anyone who thinks there is, is either ignorant, high or has a head injury (or a combination of all three, I guess).
This is not my opinion – it’s the opinion of the robed charlatans of the US Supreme Court, going all the way back to South v Maryland (59 U.S. 18 How. 396 [1855]) and continuing through to recent decisions. Common-law jurisprudence has a similar lineage.
The machinery of States does not exist to protect the livestock; it exists to transfer the livestock’s productivity to members of a privileged parasite class.
Beginning a quest with a premise as stupid as the notion that the palace-dwellers give a flying rat’s ass about the livestock, is a path to guaranteed disillusionment.
A couple of observations:
1. The system at the NSA is obviously broken when individuals like Socrates (the blogger) have keys to the car.
No doubt his overseers have just as many “issues” in their personal lives as himself, you or I. People are just never 100% on top of things during the span of their lives.
The potential for abuse (and it only takes one person) is very strong.
I seriously doubt that whatever checks have been put in place since the Snowdon episode for individuals or their superiors are infallible to misuse and abuse. Unfortunately there are people who have misguided convictions that they are doing the right thing for themselves and the rest of us.
I don’t have all the answers, but I can’t see continuously vetting the mental state of all the players involved with the NSA in it’s current form as viable.
2. In perusing the comments, I noticed people “tracking down” who they think Socrates might be.
That’s as tasteful and dangerous as the vigilante quotient of Anonymous who in the past have “outed bad guys” when in fact they were mistaken.
Except the bit about the short story titled “Infection” about an STD. Add that to the rest of data, and I think they did find the guy.
@ Peter Maass
Sokrates is easy to read: “Scruple of conscience”, he sleeps bad, fully aware of the fact that there are drones in the air, firing hellfire rockets based on metadata. He knows they don’t know enough for a kill decision, even if they had some “looks like a taliban” attached to a polygraph, they wouldn’t know enough. Sokrates knows that his “inner universe” is bigger than everything he could tell or write about it. So he tells himself to be “a good leutenant”, “Befehl ist Befehl”.
That’s not cognitive dissonance, he is aware of the problem. He doesn’t act blinded by secret selfsurpressing CogInt.
It’s the regular so called “Nuremberg defence”. And he knows this.
I don’t know if I agree with this, it’s too dismissive. If he is aware of the deception, then eventually he will be forced to make a choice between becoming what he pretends to be or quitting. If not, then it is worth asking what drives him to deceive himself to such a degree that the deception becomes a core principle of his cosmology. Either way (deception or self-deception) seems like the same kind of process, doesn’t it?
The Intercept has published a lot of shocking news about surveillance.
This is the most messed up thing I’ve read here.
After that, I got nothing.
“If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?”
The NSA will hear it.
Not only will they hear it but they will be able to tell from the metadata how tall it was, its number of growth rings and how many and how full were its branches.
And don’t let’s start talking about roots! :-s
Not to mention who or what has inhabited it now or in the past!
@ Peter Maass
Oh and I hope it doesn’t become necessary, but hopefully you vetted this piece with legal counsel prior to publication. I absolutely wouldn’t be surprised if the DOJ didn’t come after the Intercept and both you and Ms. McNeill individually for making it possible to discern the non-public identity of an NSA employee/operative. Now maybe the saving grace is that this level of NSA analyst or employee doesn’t have the legal protection that certain others do, and there won’t be anything the NSA or DOJ can do about his identity being indirectly discernible. I wouldn’t know but I’d suppose it was a risk. Nevertheless, it has always appeared to me that First Look Media is willing to go to the mat legally to fight these sort of First Amendment fights–and it is part of their purpose in existing, which is super important from both an institutional perspective and you and Ms. McNeill’s personal/professional ones I’d think. Keep up the good work.
Noted and approved.
Best wishes in joining Barrett Brown and writing “Columns from Jail” for The Intercept for the rest of your life.
Not gonna happen, Louise. The United States has not (yet) abandoned free speech and a free press to the point you authoritarians would like.
By this time, the NSA is likely to have figured out that information in the Snowden files may no longer be secure. It must be impossible at this stage to trace everyone who may have accessed those files. Therefore it is incumbent on the NSA to assume the information may already be in the hands of ‘bad actors’, who are capable of searching on Google (and ‘bad’ may even be worse than commenters at The Intercept).
So when The Intercept notified the NSA of the source file on which this story was based (as stated by Peter Maas in the comments), they were doing the NSA a favor, since the NSA (presuming it wasn’t previously capable of determining which files had been compromised), would then be able to take steps to protect Socrates Jr. from those bad actors. So possibly the NSA, as a token of their gratitude, will bestow some sort of award on The Intercept.
The fact that certain Intercept commenters found what they claim to be Jr’s blog, still up on the internet, would by this point be irrelevant, since any necessary actions have already been taken. Even Jr. himself couldn’t be bothered to take it down – or else welcomed the attention of potential publishers for his work. Unlike certain hysterical postings might lead one to suppose, there is no evidence that The Intercept ambushed anybody – quite the opposite.
I believe he kept his blog up because after publication of this article he is guaranteed a reader-base.
An interesting guess. I don’t know. PM
“he kept his blog up because after publication of this article he is guaranteed a reader-base.”
His blog is going to launch stealth cyber-attacks on anyone visiting it (cuz you know nobody was visiting before TI shined the spotlight)
That’s right; mouse over anything and they’re in …
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_2KUXDACoU
“Let’s get back to work, here…”
I love shoes!
Imelda… after all this time, is that you, my dear?!
The Socrates of this story is not only a failed writer but at work he’s an overly aggressive brown-noser.
Precisely who NSA was filter fishing for. Who can sell the company as if they really believe? Like that isn’t the first sign of a cult.
Three facts:
1) Like Jesus, Socrates had a huge influence on intellectuals, politicians and “normal people”, up to this day.
2) Like Jesus, Socrates never wrote a line.
3) Like Jesus, Socrates was put to death by the State.
I don’t know whether facts number one will apply to “your” Socrates.
I hope fact number three won’t.
“His inaugural column even suggested that the NSA’s slogan could be “building informed decision makers — so that targets do not suffer our nation’s wrath unless they really deserve it — by exercising deity-like monitoring of the target.”
Unless they really deserve it? Like Dick Cheney labeling Greenpeace (of which I am a member) a terrorist organization, ushering them into the ‘really deserving it’ crowd. Or peaceful protesters being arrested yesterday in St. Louis County, Missouri, thus making them deserving of it. ‘Deity-like monitoring’ is a route to absolute tyranny.
I’ve not read through all the comments. Has anyone suggested there are folks who have taken Maass’s article as a challenge who are currently burning up Google to connect the dots and reveal Socrates?
I did a search on “personal mission statement creation of literature as a higher calling than raising a child nobler to live as a penniless writer than a parent” but came up with Jean-Jacques Rousseau, which suggests that Socrates may have cribbed some material.
Scott Walker’s name also popped up, for some reason.
HAHAHAHA
Yes they found him, it’s down thread.
Thanks. Found it — and found Google Result #11.
Thanks for this article Peter Maas. I am so fascinated by the psychology of people who spy on other people, and not just people who do it because they’re paid to do it and work for the NSA. Our society in general is just becoming so narcissistic, in terms of reality TV and social media. I just find it crazy how people put so much of their personal stuff out there on the web, just broadcasting it into the ether. Aren’t they just a little bit afraid of whose attention they might catch? It’s a big scary world out there and you can’t know who might “click” on your profile and take an interest. I tell my kids all the time that the Internet is one of the scariest places on earth and to keep their personal info, off of it.
But yes, “we are all hackers now,” the internet makes it so easy.
On another note, I wonder about Socrates’ social skills. He strikes me as someone who, though he may have a family and a job and maybe a social life and friendships, is somehow a bit “cut off.” I mean, I don’t think his personal relationships are probably very meaningful or fulfilling. I think he probably has difficulty connecting with people. I think he probably doesn’t understand himself very well, and therefore doesn’t understand other people very well. But he wants to (understand better). I think he’s lonely. Maybe that’s why he feels comfortable spying on other people. It’s a way of feeling connected to people, but from a position of power, a position that doesn’t feel vulnerable.
I wonder what his personal feelings are about the people/targets he surveils. Does he develop affection for them? Dislike maybe? Does he develop proprietary feelings? Does the act of spying on someone, after a while, begin to “feel” somehow, like a real two-way relationship?
I’m surprised he kept his personal blog up, especially since the description of it here makes it sound a little like a “cry for help.” Ah well, very interesting stuff Peter. Thanks again.
Thanks, appreciate it.
Actually, if I could delete half of my above comment, where I speculate about that guy’s personality, I would. Because I have no idea who he is. Why am I psychoanalyzing? I think B. Mussolini probably got closest with his quote, below:
“I found myself wishing that my life would be constantly and completely monitored” – the “Socrates” guy
“I translated ‘god’ into ‘NSA’ because omniscience (even more than omnipotence) is the hallmark of a god, and the natural human instinct is to submit, as Socrates did, in the face of an omniscient entity.
The reason he did not remove his blog is because his faith instructs him that if the NSA wishes it to be removed, it will do so. To act of his own volition, without a direct order from the NSA would not occur to him.” – B. Mussolini
I have also pondered the psychological makeup of these folks. Apart from the monetary compensation ( I assume it pays well ) there must be a pretty creepy voyeurism thang going on here. I mean, this is really kind of sick. Not like Hitchcock’s ‘Rear Window’ but a million times worse.
you know, Amelia?
That is actually a really cool characterization
i wouldnt change a thing
:-)
I have an intuition that he writes here as “abracadabra”.
Great piece of writing, in my humble opinion. Fascinating story, tantalizing I’m sure to a lot of folks who may get on line and find out who this person is.
Thanks for your comment.
” … a Failed Writer Becomes a Loyal Spy?”
That sounds exactly like Whitaker Chambers.
Chambers was a magnificent, elegant writer (and translator). He was not remotely “failed.” His later essays for TIME were among the most lyrical and literary in the history of that publication — from the years when it was quite good.
He became a spy because he was a devout believer in, and member of, the Communist Party, and was recruited for that work. In large part because of his facility with languages.
His professors and friends at Columbia, including Lionel Trilling, expected him to become a major writer and poet. But he fled to Communism and writing for the Party including in the Daily Worker and The New Masses. His agitprop short story Can You Make Out Their Voices? was considered fine fiction even outside of Party circles. But then he was approached by the Party for underground work, and he went.
Point taken; I was mainly thinking of the period when he switched sides again. A lot of New York and Hollywood luminaries were asked to name names, and it did tarnish a lot of those mixed up in it. Being remembered for the Pumpkin Papers isn’t exactly Pulitzer territory.
On another matter, have you had a chance to look at this?
http://www.defense.gov/pubs/Law-of-War-Manual-June-2015.pdf
It’s getting news stories — distractions — over the free-press issue, but the whole document seems to have very wide implications for war doctrine.
He didn’t intend it as such. Initially, they were his insurance policy against GRU reprisals when he jumped ship — he made sure they knew he had some evidence hidden.
When the Hiss thing blew up a decade later, Chambers knew the truth and had evidence showing it. Hiss made the mistake of suing Chambers for defamation, and the Pumpkin Papers were released — and Richard Nixon and HUAC were ecstatic, of course. At that point there was no denying Chambers really had been a spy and that others implicated in the papers were (or had been) as well. (The defamation suit ended.)
If the Pumpkin Papers hadn’t been enough, the Venona decrypts and a brief opening of the KGB archives to Western historians, settled multiple matters in Chambers’ favor.
The problem with writers is when they become vengeful grasping supplicants to those who want to starve them to death, ad infinitum. There’s no shortage of power tripping agents at publishing houses or editors who despise anyone who didn’t psychoactively craft a message to match the elusive idea in their head, that even *they* can’t manage to communicate clearly to another person. It’s a tryanny of crazies!
Why didn’t this guy just go live in a field somewhere and resolve to self-publish? Why go insane and throw himself in the gears of the surveillance complex? Oh. Ego. The bid to be remembered as something ,if not great.. by a bunch of evil people.
Greatness comes from purpose. People are going to piss on your purpose. They’ll frutstrate your aim and deliberately misunderstand talent b/c they don’t get it. However, you don’t give those people what they come to collect on: failure. So in a way, I’m glad he didn’t give up even if he messed up.
This guy repaid a bunch of pathological narcissists with service that gave morale to Americas equivalent of Stasi!
This whole scenario is a tragedy.
Not all writers go out badly.
Socrates seems to assume benign intentions on the part of the NSA and the government in general. He assumes that the only thing they’re trying to accomplish is stopping the “bad guys”. That’s clearly not the case. Case in point: Laura Poitras. It seems terribly naive on his part.
Quite right, The NSA sees all as bad guys, friends who serve, or suspect threats or talents for future recruits.
Hi avelna2001 –
I was really captivated by the story and by so many of the comments. I think you really have a point there. I found it really creepy how he advocated towing the line:
“We probably all have something we know a lot about that is being handled at a higher level in a manner we’re not entirely happy about,” he wrote. “This can cause great cognitive dissonance for us, because we may feel our work is being used to help the government follow a policy we feel is bad.” Socrates advised modesty. Maybe the policy is actually correct — or perhaps it is wrong but will work out in the end. “I try,” he explained, “to be a good lieutenant and good civil servant of even the policies I think are misguided.”
Naïve or whatever, this unquestioning obedience to authority is part of the problem in our society. That’s how abuses keep going and getting worse.
And above is precisely why mass surveillance is both ineffective, pointless and likely counterproductive independent of the immorality of engaging in voyeurism absent specific articulable cause to suspect someone. Our secret inner lives, our private thoughts, ideas and secrets–that’s a big part of what makes us individuals. We are at base a function of what we choose to share with others, what we keep to ourselves, and the actions we take. But we very rarely if ever truly understand ourselves, assuming that’s possible, much less anybody else. But we don’t broaden our understanding of each other without engaging in the very hard work of earning each other’s trust and respect and getting others to let us into their private lives, hopes, fears, aspirations, neuroses . . . and you certainly don’t do it by voyeurism without permission or legal or moral justification without. And you certainly don’t get there by not having an incredible amount of compassion, tolerance and adaptability to the many cultural and historical differences that make us “different peoples”.
It is part of the human condition to distrust what we misunderstand or aren’t familiar with. But the scary thing about the immoral hacks at the NSA and affiliated agencies, is that an algorithm can never truly “understand” or shed meaningful light on a person’s inner life–the myriad conflicting “whys” behind what we do.
And taking a bunch of data points based on outward habits and activities of a person and mashing them all together and trying to deduce conclusions about what a person “might do” prospectively can only yield the most superficial of insights.
What’s most scary to me is that someone like the subject of this story is entrusted to do this. The person you are describing is not very intelligent (given his bad/unsuccessful writing), not very creative, not very insightful, not very disciplined or committed to the thing he nominally loves most–writing, and to top it all off doesn’t morally comprehend the implications of what he is doing to others in pursuit of his narrow material self-interest and desire to be financially comfortable. But what he perfectly represents is the average American. That’s what’s truly scary to me–he is many if not most of us.
I’ve often said, if you ever want to know how a seemingly “normal” if not “civilized” people like the Germans of their time could adopt Nazism, or people could go along with Stalinism, or support the activities of Israel vis a vis the Palestinians, or be proud Americans despite the fact we’re a nation build and slavery and genocide and have been bombing the fuck out of human beings all over the globe in service of “our interests” for 60+ years, simply look in the mirror.
The vast majority of people on the globe are narcissistic, mistrustful and frightened of the “other”. They are incredibly greedy. They are largely dissociated from the larger consequences of their actions and don’t care. They are willing to kill in service of “order” and the false perception of “security and safety” and “material well-being” particularly where they can do it without getting their own hands bloody or putting their own safety at risk. We are tribal, barely evolved, naked little apes with hobbies and jobs and some technological trinkets to make our lives a little less physically exhausting and/or entertaining.
It will take an incredible external threat to all of humanity and/or our physical environment to ever get the vast majority of humanity to consider the possibility that as a species we are a) all basically the same despite some very superficial phenotypic and cultural differences, b) that if we are to survive as a species it will be through collaboration and sharing rather than competition, c) that our “materialist” way of life is biologically unsustainable and in fact counterproductive to forging the species wide humility and the human sense of community necessary to perceive all life, and our brief consciousness and experience of it, as the true gift bestowed upon “humanity” and d) if we are to survive as a species that we are “all in it together” along with all the other forms of life on the planet–no better no worse, just different, (co) and interdependent and important in its own right to our mutual survival.
Basically I think we’re approaching that point. I’m just not very optimistic that we can evolve fast enough to not suffer catastrophe. Which is not to say I believe it will be the end of the earth, just lots of things that inhabit it and grow upon it. It will likely keep spinning and produce the next mixture of species of life that will have “their time” being the dominant forms of life on the planet. Hell maybe some small pockets of humanity will survive, hard to say.
Hell I’m not even sure it is fair to see ourselves as the most “evolved” life on the planet at present–the species most suited for prospective survival. We are a young fragile though numerous little species, and not all that adaptable given the short amount of time we’ve been here. I’d have to think insects, or bacteria, or viruses or something like that are the most evolved and long lasting species at this point. I mean isn’t that part of one of the biggest human conceits–because we view ourselves as capable of things that an ant isn’t, or we perceive ourselves more “cognitively” complex or evolved than some other species on our planet, we believe we are somehow superior to them? My question has always been “superior” how? In any meaningful evolutionary way? From an evolutionary standpoint sometimes “simpler” and “less complex” is more adaptive and more likely to survive and propagate the species. Seems to me that is a more useful understanding of “superior” in an evolutionary sense.
What good does all our cognitive horsepower and species “complexity” do if our technological creations and “way of life” ultimately causes us to destroy ourselves and much of the life we depend upon for our very survival? I would think with a little humility and perspective we’d understand that we may be more clever than we are smart or wise or otherwise evolutionarily suited for survival. Guess we’ll see–well I probably won’t but some will. And I can pretty much guarantee that endeavors like the NSA aren’t helping us achieve the wisdom and humility we’re going to need if we’re going to make it as a species.
You are all over the map with that post, rrheard, but I really enjoyed it.
Yeah sorry about that. Little overcaffeinated when I wrote it as you can tell by the typos and lack of edits.
I guess a shorter version would have been this: the banality of evil is in all of us–to lesser or greater degree–in our indifference, ignorance, fear of the “other”, lack of empathy, lack of humility, laziness, materialist wants, tribalism, misunderstandings, misguided intentions, confusion, lack of self-knowledge and penchant for violence/competition over collaboration. And “Socrates” is perfect example of just that idea(s). Bad things are going to continue to happen, systemically and individually, until we can “evolve” past some/all of that. If our humanity (or lack of emphasis on its better qualities) and “culture” don’t catch up with our technological capacities, old ways of organizing our societies and materialism pretty quickly, and change fairly dramatically, then we’re in very serious trouble as a species (not to mention all the other species of plants and animals on the planet) if we aren’t already. IMHO.
Socrates was selected for the job precisely because of his submissive mind. That he spent 7 years as an evangelical (an uber believer in a sky-dweller ) reveals his eagerness to serve , or submit to, some form of a higher power which would obviously have his best interest. Or at least, any wrath dispensed would be directed at those less servile.
Twisted; scary indeed.
@ nuf said
It also appears, without disclosing his identity, that he is/was US Marine Corp (not sure if they like “ex”, “former” or whatever). Although now he appears to be agnostic. In any event, appears he’s struggling/struggled with some/all of that. Not surprising given he represents the common American archtype, if not the average human one.
There’s very little I can add to that. I agree with your assessment of our situation. It is 3 minutes to midnight.
I wouldn’t equate evolutionary progress with humans or any species being “most suited for prospective survival.” Evolution on Earth is replete with examples of evolutions that failed spectacularly; the very term “evolution” implies ongoing change. And as far as superiority is concerned, that has always been subjective. The real question is, “evolution towards what.” It may be true that simpler and less complex is better in terms of longevity; but more complex and complicated may be better in achieving other ends. If the goal of life is to survive and propagate, then Earth-based life must someday leave the Earth in order to achieve that goal; it seems very unlikely that bacteria or insects will manage to accomplish that before the Sun burns out, other than by accident. Humans, however, or our descendents may just figure out how to do it…and they will bring along all the rest, like Noah’s Arks in space. So in that sense, I don’t think it’s improper to consider ourselves superiorly-evolved. Was it wrong for Muhammad Ali to call himself “The Greatest?” Within the realm of boxing, for a period of time, he was. So were the dinosaurs masters of their time. Right now, as you say it’s our time. Maybe the next step won’t be biological at all, but technological. We may be creating our evolutionary successors at this very moment.
If we destroy ourselves, which at the moment seems unpleasantly likely, the “good” it will have done is to illustrate yet another failed path of evolution. Evolution towards what, who knows? But if we fail to survive, the Earth will continue on…and beyond that, the vast cosmos. And beyond that…
@ liberalrob
All good points.
Thanks for taking the time to write this comment; really thoughtful.
Peter
You’re welcome. Sorry it lacked edits and brevity. Get a little carried away contemplating the implications of a piece of writing I thought was both interesting and important.
Great piece by the way. Seems to be the consensus with everybody but “goodbye cruel world Ondelette” anyway.
“he perfectly represents is the average American”
I may be going out on a limb here rr, but after reading that comment and having read many of your others, I would say you do NOT represent the average American.
And that’s a good thing.
altohone
In many ways I’m like most Americans. I just think on the big things (war, civil liberties, justice generally, racial/gender/sexual orientation justice, economic justice, a more enlightened view of patriotism) I’m willing to be an outlier and not go with the heard.
As I indicated, people are complicated. And notwithstanding all their faults and fears and shortcomings, I think most people, and most Americans individually have the capacity, if not the present will, to do the right thing. To see the bigger picture if they want. But they are bombarded by so much propaganda throughout so much of their lives beginning at a very early age and emanating from so many institutions, that they struggle to recognize certain truths that are right in front of them.
To do so would cause them great cognitive/emotional stress because they are taught to view themselves as part of something ‘exceptional’ and apart from the rest of humanity. It would also force them to consider changing how they live their lives if they truly had to grapple with the collective consequences of our individual “way of life”. And most Americans are too economically insecure and worried about their children and families to envision that change, while often painful, can be a good thing in the long run.
Most of my closest friends and family aren’t at all like me politically. Good folks but uninvolved and unconcerned about things if it doesn’t directly impact them. That’s the way most people are. They are tribal and incredibly generous to those in their immediate circle. My theory is that’s where you start to change hearts and minds–one at a time–within the circle of those closest too you. That has a way of spreading. At least I hope it does.
But in any event thanks for the compliment.
Don’t take this the wrong way, but your reply brought an old memory of a Cheech and Chong movie to mind… and I’m going to have to guess/paraphrase the quote-
Yeah, we should have uniforms, but they should all be different.
This is an outstanding article on a subject I can only describe as pathetic. Great job.
Thanks, appreciate it.
This article is haunting a look at a two way mirror with ghostly reflections from both sides. Almost as if IT’s Peter Maass and Staff are raping the rapist who may deserved his fate but hard to watch even though they are gentle about it. One most first empty their thoughts and soul to be filled with evil, then the pressure of peers and fears can do the rest. Those who can face and expose evil without getting lost in it give us all a chance to make a stand. The commenter’s are very on their game (below)
Pedinska: most of us have, at some point in our lives, had to do something our employers – or others with power over our lives – asked of us that we disagreed with and/or felt was wrong. Glass houses, “let he who is without sin cast the first stone”, etc. and all that….
Fran Macadam: Stalin was first a poet, Hitler a failed painter
JLocke: Understandable that he doesn’t want to talk, but, totally hilarious that a true believer in total surveillance wants his privacy.
Benito Mussolini: O citizens of the USA, that the NSA only is wise; and in this oracle the NSA means to say that the wisdom of men is little or nothing… as if the NSA said, O citizens, the wisest is he or she, who like Socrates, knows that their wisdom is in truth worth nothing
Whom among us can state with clear conscience: We weren’t duped – at least, in part – by the “weapons of mass destruction in Iraq” threat and the subsequent “hope and change” future plan?
Snake oil salesmen and people who sell a false bill of goods ought to be held accountable. They’re the criminals and frauds.
The former NSA employee – nom de plume “Socrates” – described herein strikes me as a “straw man” of sorts.
My “S” doesn’t stand for Stasi, clown. Pay closer attention ;-).
I was not duped, in any part, for any seconds, and your Stasi did not like that one bit. (I guess — Mona, I know you’re lurking — they found this opinion quite remarkable so they launched a remarkable torture session which continues until this moment. My torture story is truly remarkable, Mona.)
However, I did believe some of the WMD stories not written by Judith Miller. I read reports about a group of US soldiers finding WMD from the Iraq / Iran war which contained poisons manufactured in South Carolina, then read of the exposed soldiers shabby treatment from troop supporters. But the US did not invade South Carolina in retaliation, and this created almost as much confusion as the US invasion of Iraq instead of Saudi Arabia, so it is possible that I am being duped now. It could be a symptom of Post Traumatic Disinformation Disorder.
Me, 100%. I am not in anyway an expert – common sense and logic with not much more than a high school knowledge of Iraq, the M.E. and Saddam’s very odd friendship with the US/West put me on high alert.
I still cannot believe that people actually believed the lies and propaganda and thought it just fine and dandy to attack a sovereign country, decimate and violently abuse its people and destroy its infrastructure and that just for starters – I still find it mind boggling. “Hope and Change” – for whom and how? People might have asked, it was most obviously not for Iraq’s citizens
Many foreign media outlets had an entirely different take that, at the very least, should have been cause for pause, along with some attempt at the critical thought process. Plus, the pillorying of Hans Blix and ElBaredei and anyone who dared to say otherwise should have raised a flag in everyone’s mind, if not the more obvious arm-twisting, threatening, blackmailing, bribing to scramble together a ‘coalition of the willing’. Freedom fries? Really!
“Snake oil salesmen and people who sell a false bill of goods ought to be held accountable” …. as should the masses and Congress who didn’t care to question the chow that was served up to them, but ate it up , swallowed it without chewing and even asked for more!
NSA’s slogan could be “building informed decision makers — so that targets do not suffer our nation’s wrath unless they really deserve it — by exercising deity-like monitoring of the target.
This pretty much sums up the totalitarian mind set of the most defective members of US society, and commenters trying to wheedle sympathy for the rodent are sloppy, letting others know they share Socrates’ world view, if not his profession.
Socrates “really deserves” to be monitor ed 24×7, stalked, harassed, threatened, and assaulted by several of his targets over a period of say, ten years, at the risk of being too lenient. I think it’s called “facing music” in the Intelligence / Torture Community’s dictionary.
Socrates “really deserves” to be monitor ed 24×7, stalked, harassed, threatened, and assaulted by several of his targets over a period of say, ten years, at the risk of being too lenient.
No, he doesn’t. He’s doing something, however wrong, that he’s been made to understand is legal and necessary. The people who should be punished are those who lied to him, Congress and all of us.
Did -you- lie to him? I have never done so!
I do think we all have free will and can tell right from wrong, if not coming, then going.
RCL
Did -you- lie to him? I have never done so!
There should have been a comma after Congress.
Yea, sometimes you don’t see it coming.
“No, he doesn’t”. Yes, he does. The Golden Rule
If innocent people can be monitored 24×7, stalked, harassed, threatened, and assaulted with impunity then equal and opposite pushback is legit. Writing Congress, the ACLU, and the Center For Constitutional Rights” is pissing in the wind.
You are too comfortable; long-term organized stalking and torture sessions are a mere abstraction to you. And you are also excusing yourself and the rest of the US population for your/their own responsibility — their critical role — in turning the US into a totalitarian state. It could not have happened without you, and this political climate will be maintained for as long as Socrates and his rodent partners are accommodated, funded, and encouraged.
I think we’ve had this conversation before, but reminding American voters they are not innocents is always worth repeating.
You need to endure several years of torture before showing us your sympathy for Socrates and his Stasi comrades.
(Socrates and the NSA give you their warmest regards.)
I make no such assumption and you know nothing about me aside from what you read here, but go ahead and label me. It goes off my back waaaaay faster than my own responsibilities for what is happening do. I take this shit seriously.
Pedinska, your accuser, “Torturestan,” lacks credibility — certainly s/he has far, far less than you do. His/her judgment is severely impaired as s/he believes and promotes deluded bullshit like this:
And:
There’s much more sheer lunacy in the latest Andrew Fishman comments section from these “Targeted Individuals,” including this gem from “Pat B.”
I do hope Peter Maass will join Glenn, Cora Currier and Micah Lee in not permitting these “Targeted Individual” fanatics to crapflood his comments. Fishman’s turned into an ocean of crazy.
My credibility is derived from a long experience. When I said “you are too comfortable; long-term organized stalking and torture sessions are a mere abstraction to you”, I knew what I was talking about. Reading about torture, signing petitions, and denying torture subjects’ experiences is quite different than living through a torture session. And by the way, American, deluded members of a society having a hard time finding respect from a warmed-over dog’s breakfast are in no position to judge my credibility on the subject. (And I do wonder how long unremarkable Americans such as yourself would endure what I am dealing with.)
However, I noticed you have stopped linking me to alien abductees, satellite laser weapon victims, and mind-control subjects. You’ve backed up. Now you’re down to associating me with Pat B’s roasting stories. Another weak disinfo/discredit ploy, but it’s progress.
I also perceive you and some of the other paid Torture Community denizens here have changed tactics. Some of their more recent remarks seem to be admit ‘it happens’, and they have moved on to querying their targets about ‘why it happens’, knowing of course that patriot-torturers do not give out this information beyond idiotic, Kafkaesque responses such as “Certain Reasons”. This development is a bit encouraging.
Now, run to mommy before the remarkable — by US standards — tortured guy posts again. Maybe she’ll ban me again.
Ok Pedinska, I do believe you take this shit very seriously and I note you do not indulge in denying my experience — my ‘American Experience’ . At least I have not noticed.
I might become magnanimous towards my belittled torturers if and when it stops and I get a sense of justice. But if you were in the pit with me you might have a different perspective about the way identified perps deserve to be treated, given the non-controversial fact that the US is not a nation of laws.
and by the way guys, if you have wondered when will “Mona” show up, I tell you “be not afraid” . I paid her a ticket to some beach resort in Bali without access to the Internet. I just hope our darling Mona will withstand that ;-)
RCL
Thank you very much Peter. I tip my hat to you (with my comments).
Something I have noticed is that those NSA morons think of themselves as semioticians, data analysts, linguists, … smart guys, just because they make money by sucking it up the chain of command
Damn! APA doesn’t want to “cooperate” with these guys anymore. Who will explain to those idiots (among many other “technicalities”) there is something called intersubjectivity and you will not be able to get into people’s minds, never “know” enough about anyone to understand anything, really
You see! They have thoughts going through their minds
… and what thoughts those “experts” have!
What I like about this piece is that theintercept a la John Oliver seems to be slowly understanding that there are very easy ways to make things understandable to the proles out there. I keep waiting for pictures or Michelle Obama fingering her husband. You have such “metadata”, why not using it for a good purpose. USG basically keep all us in virtual prisons, they are killing and double tapping people based on “statistical patterns” even our medical records are part of their purview … and then theintercept has “moral” issues with telling people how it is like …
Those Christians! God bless ‘America’!
and he and his likes will not have a comfortable feeling when they read this article (or maybe they are moral and emotional zombies already). Now, those kinds of good ‘American’ Christians seem to be way above that boring “Don’t do unto others …” thing. That insipidly boring “Golden Rule” must be for the brainless lowlifes
These people mean “can” and “cannot” in their own distorted ways. I would love to see that guy exposed for them to realize that in the same way that they “can” watch and mess with people’s lives as if they were ants in an experiment, things (even if minimal) “can” also happen to them
Hey guys one of the few things I can boast about is being an excellent data analyst. I did write my Master’s thesis on the Mathematics of informational related issues (ghost phenomena) in physical experiments. I used to work for corporate ‘America’ (Ernst & Young, American Express, Lehman Brothers) doing data analysis. In fact, exclusively based on the info you published on this article it is not so hard to find out who this “Korean Socrates who was an evangelical Christian” is (well, if they haven’t already removed and obfuscated those leads already).
That is “him” …
I think you may be overworking a bit your associations here. He is just one of the many unsuccessful #ssh0l3s who can’t figure out what to do with their @ss (for lack of minds)
and Howard Prince (Woody Allen) in “The Front”, even though he wasn’t even the actual writer was a guy with a spine, some sense of humanity (and humor) who did chose to go to prison instead of playing their game by snitching the actual author
and to those kinds mixed rationalizations from “I am just following orders” + Evangelical Christianism is all those morally deafferented morons have in their minds
Well, that is imaginative enough. Don’t you think? He was aiming to at least beat the title of Ha Jin’s novel: “Waiting”
Again, you may be overworking a bit your associations here. His being an NSA #ssh0l3 does not explain or is a result of his muse or personal issues. He could be a continuously rejected, “uncomprehended” writer like Anne Frank or James Joyce. He may become a later comer with a very troubled life (even though not as a snitch) like Cervantes, a mad man like who was actually a great painter like Van Gogh or later become some sort of Rustichello da NSA
We should admit something good about him. His reflections, role in this article.
Thank you very much for exposing that @ssh0l3.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfreda_Frances_Bikowsky
https://www.google.com/search?q=alfreda+frances+bikowsky+CIA&hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X
// __ Alfreda Frances Bikowsky: CIA Criminal – YouTube
youtube.com/watch?v=Krdxr1EwQ_s
We should let them understand secrecy is not our business, so we don’t have to respect their “morality”.
So we (very stupidly) think …
Well, no. We should be decent, his family should be kept off limits, but not him; even thought, to my surprise, USG doesn’t respect people’s families and dear ones. Knowing the name of his dog or its meaning is kind of funny because something peculiar about those morons is the names they give to things. Is the name of his dog Plato?
Actually, I hear him sobbing about such an idiot corrupting his name, but then again those folks tend to use names in funky ways
and “we” the NSA are the Gods unleashing “our” “nation’s wrath” on whomever we deem to be bad guys, so get ready theintercept and all your posters, including Mona … (you see Mona trashing TIs didn’t save you)
Well, maybe you will give him the chance to get the attention he seems to crave and by the way “Socrates” if you read this, you could show theintercept how silly those mere mortals are by posting the URL to your own blog here. Listen, you may like my poetry, which you may even find therapeutic:
https://hsymbolicus.wordpress.com/category/poems/ (lies …)
I promise to you that I would give you input on your writing.
That was a great closure to one of the most interesting articles ever penned at theinternet
Satyagraha,
RCL
RCL, this is a great, thoughtful comment. Really appreciate it. PM
It is as amazing to watch this. Truly. And to see it met with comments like,
The problem here isn’t Peter Maass’ and Sheelagh McNeil’s lack of knowledge of their subject, nor the commenters who display the same, the problem is that Peter Maass and Sheelagh McNeil themselves lack the introspection to understand their subject.
I came here some time after being kicked off of The Guardian. The moderators there thought they knew me well, I’m sure. They wrote me an email about how my posts were in violation of their rules on grounds of “irrelevancy” and “off topic”. The letter also stated that all comments that mentioned male victims of rape in articles about rape in general (which over there means rape of women only) were considered offensive and off topic.
What they thought they knew was they believed — perhaps they’d even done big data datamining techniques to prove it to themselves — that all people who brought that topic up were “MRA” adherents of misogynist websites come to troll. Never mind that if they had even done as much schlock surveillance as one tenth what Maass and McNeil did, they’d have discovered that I penned a column the two subjects of male rape, and rape as a weapon of war on FDL (and led an off-site discussion on it for a few days afterward, but they wouldn’t know that).
They are also of a kind with what’s going on here. They lacked the introspective ability to read one of the comments they had automatedly classified as offensive, and tried to figure out why it was being posted. Not many misogynists rednecks from MRA sites quote the European Journal if International Law, or the UNHCR.
Introspection people. It isn’t a quality lacking in our “Socrates” subject necessarily. We don’t actually know. We don’t know what his “editorial control” over his internal columns was and who decided on their topics, we don’t know anything about them. In particular, we don’t really know he believes in doing to people what Peter and Sheelagh did to him at all. We don’t know that because Peter and Sheelagh lack the introspection to decide to solve their quandary about his reaction to being doxxed before going to print, and just blithely chatter on about it being unknowable.
I suggest you start, Peter, by watching the movie Fair Game about the spy Valerie Plame. Then follow it up with a fictional account based on that incident as well, Nothing But The Truth starring Kate Beckinsale and Vera Farmiga. And then maybe finish up by reading The Politics of Truth by Joseph Wilson. They are all about a very small group of people of order 3 (Karl Rove, Scooter Libby, Bob Novak, essentially), deciding to doxx Valerie Plame, a deeply undercover CIA agent who was working on finding out about weapons of mass destruction and their lack of existence, because her husband blew the whistle on the “Yellow Cake” assertions in the run up to the Iraq War.
I bet you don’t see much common ground between Socrates and Plame. But that isn’t because there isn’t any, it’s because you believe that the small group (Rove,Libby,Novak) is inherently more evil and nefarious than the small group (Snowden,Maass,McNeil). To someone like me who has reason to fear (not worry, not paranoia — fear) doxxing, there is identically zero difference. A small group of zealous people, convinced of their righteousness, reached out and smacked someone who’s identity needed protection — regardless of whether you agree with why — and feels quite okay with what they did.
And the commenters that likewise don’t know why Socrates’ behavior is what it is, or believe they can see into his soul and find learning experiences and lack of introspection? Did any of you do the simple and very introspective/empathetic exercise of putting yourself in his shoes at all? Or do you, like Peter Maass, believe you don’t have to because it’s just an NSA guy you may have hurt, not somebody who’s an “innocent civilian”?
As someone who has to protect myself against doxxing, and who actually came here after The Guardian kicked me out precisely because I felt I could trust Glenn Greenwald (and by extension his organization) to protect my pseudonymity, I am appalled.
Peter, it’s very simple why he continued blogging: He is trying to limit the damage and stopping a public action calls attention to anyone doing real surveillance that he’s the subject you are referring to. It isn’t that you don’t know him well enough to know that, it’s that you don’t know the effects of your reporting on your subjects well enough to know what you’re doing to them.
You people have it completely wrong. People don’t fear your doxxing or your incomplete anonymizer scrubbings because of what you will do to them, or even what Pedinska reminded us of, “Comment sections can be cruel places, and I would hope that we could engage with compassion.” They fear doxxing for reasons you have no knowledge of at all.
You have no idea what this person does at the Korea desk, or anywhere else in the NSA aside from his column in their internal document, the permission you got for which was from Edward Snowden and no one else. After which it was you two who decided that gave you a free ride to surveil him, your logic undoubtedly including the self-righteousness of going up against the surveillors at the NSA and teaching them a lesson. In all, three people accountable to no one sat judge, jury, and executioner on this guy’s identity, just like Rove, Libby, and Novak.
I fear doxxing because of something nobody here could possibly guess without a ton of digging, and a personal interview on a subject I’d never give one on. Because it’s something that requires secrecy to the extent that I take it to the grave alone. You can’t possibly know the harm you’d cause because you can’t possibly know what’s involved. And you’d never know afterward, either, and if you apply the Greenwald idiotic metric, you’d assume you never caused any harm and you’d be dead wrong.
For all the columns here about privacy, and the thrills everyone has at bantering about encryption and XKeyScore and everything else, you don’t know what secrets really are at all. Not because you haven’t read a thousand documents and interviewed a million people and massed whatever you could understand of dozens of experts. Because you haven’t ever taken the step of sitting there for an hour before you published and trying to be your subject and experience what they will go through when your column comes out.
I came here after The Guardian because there are 3 organizations left online who can cause real harm with the information they have about me. One, I have their written, binding statement that they will not doxx me. One is an organization that I just have to continue to worry about for the foreseeable future. The third is Glenn. I came here because I trusted him that he would never do such a thing, I still do trust Glenn.
But I’m leaving now, because I can’t trust this place. Peter, that’s what you fail to understand at all, not because you’re no good at surveillance, not because there’s an existential gulf between people’s minds that we will never understand each other at that level.
Because YOU lack the ability to put yourself in someone else’s shoes.
I’m sure a lot of people here are thinking, “Don’t let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.” So be it. But you should at least allow one thing to penetrate the thick armor of righteousness that surrounds this place like a wetsuit that hasn’t been rinsed in a while: You are a complete mirror image of the people you hate at the NSA. You share their self-righteousness, you share their belief that nobody you want to target deserves privacy.
What you needed to know, Peter, is that you have seen the enemy and they is us.
Outahere for good. As a beacon for civil rights and privacy, this place is an Epic Fail.
And the commenters that likewise don’t know why Socrates’ behavior is what it is, or believe they can see into his soul and find learning experiences and lack of introspection? Did any of you do the simple and very introspective/empathetic exercise of putting yourself in his shoes at all?
Actually, I did. And, though I hadn’t read the entire list of comments before posting mine in hope of some sort of dialogue (because I think, in general, such dialogues help us understand)…
Or do you, like Peter Maass, believe you don’t have to because it’s just an NSA guy you may have hurt, not somebody who’s an “innocent civilian”?
…I was extremely disconcerted to see that people in comments immediately went searching for his personal information, a search that could have been avoided had the article left a few things less specific. This guy didn’t deserve doxxing anymore than the Conde Nast guy who was hooking up with prostitutes on the down low.
I am not of the mind that low level grunts should be made to suffer for the sins of their bosses. But you wouldn’t know that, ondelette, because you lack the introspection to understand me. Or maybe it’s not about introspection so much as just assuming things about others simply because of lack of intimate information/knowledge.
I understand why you feel the need to leave and think that’s a shame. Do what you need to do to remain safe. But please don’t ever think you know the end-all be-all of my thought process because you take something I write and apply contexts that aren’t accurate based on your own assumptions.
Sorry. Mishandled italics. The following should have been italicized as a quote from ondelette’s comment:
Or do you, like Peter Maass, believe you don’t have to because it’s just an NSA guy you may have hurt, not somebody who’s an “innocent civilian”?
I’ll comment one more time to answer you. I don’t consider it a “learning experience” to sit fearful of the wrong eyes reading something that gives up privacy, knowing that the repercussions might be quite horrible and deadly. I consider it the drip drip drip torture of total helplessness and unshared responsibility. Not everybody who fears exposure fears for themselves alone.
Not everybody who fears exposure fears for themselves alone.
I understand this to the best of my ability. Because I have not had direct experience it is, of necessity, something not inherent for me. That does not mean I think it negligent. It also does not mean that I am minimizing it.
I am sorry you feel you need to go but I understand (as best I can).
Already back for another petulant mini-gripe.
Oh, lordy, Ondy doesn’t fear for his self-loving self, but for some nameless, helpless others in his benevolent care. What a classic display of overcompensation for low self-esteem. Keep countering that sense of worthlessness to stop you from opening your veins, Ondy. ‘I AM smart and important, I AM smart and important, I AM smart and important.’
Exactly.
What is the universe of professions that would require someone to post anonymously online to protect others? Lawyers, doctors, therapists, priests — these all post online all the time using their real names.
If you’re what we have as a ‘fighter for freedom and privacy’ we’re all frigging doomed.
I hope someone’s paying you well to consistently backstab the people who call you ‘friend’.
I object to the insinuation that my (and clearly you are referring to among others, me) verification of the article is a form of “doxxing”. I did no such thing. I regularly fact check articles, and for this one, I made no exception.
Is the article itself “doxxing”? I don’t think so either. One could accuse any story with unnamed individuals of revealing something about them. The only way not to reveal anything would be to not reveal the story. What did Maass reveal? The guy has a house, a son, etc, …Altogether not enough to direct you to him. Was that necessary? I’d argue, in fact I’ve already argued, that the public purpose of doing that is to press the point on the power of meta data, and the value of privacy.
This comment makes an important point about the difficulty of writing about someone without identifying him/her, even if the name is not mentioned. It’s the 33 bits of entropy problem (https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2010/01/primer-information-theory-and-privacy). As my story stated, it might be possible that Socrates’ name could be found via the information that was in my story; we realized that. At The Intercept, we discussed this a lot and some of the factors that were discussed included the fact that Socrates did not take down his blog, even though he knew a story was going to be published about him, and the consequences of him being identified by readers (the consequences being minor to negligible, I believe), as well as the public interest in writing about him (versus not writing about him at all).
I object to the insinuation that my (and clearly you are referring to among others, me)
Actually, I wasn’t referring/insinuating to you at all, but if it makes you feel better to think so, ok. :-)
And, as Peter notes below,
As my story stated, it might be possible that Socrates’ name could be found via the information that was in my story; we realized that.
I would be interested to know why Peter believed the consequences would be minor to negligible.
– ‘Actually, I wasn’t referring/insinuating to you at all, but if it makes you feel better to think so, ok. “
I’m glad you were not referring to me, I respect your opinion. I was surprised when you wrote this:
In my opinion, it is unclear in the passage who you are blaming for the search that could have been avoided, the readers doing the searching, or Maass. I was taken aback, that my conducting a google search, and not even revealing what I found, was disconcerting to you. You’ve now cleared up what you meant. And we disagree on the danger the article itself poses. It’s definitely an interesting question.
<>
Lots of reasons, including the fact that there are plenty of government officials, and private citizens, who have said or written or done far worse and have not been harmed.
Lots of reasons, including the fact that there are plenty of government officials, and private citizens, who have said or written or done far worse and have not been harmed.
Ok, I will grant that this was considered, but will note that government officials, especially those at or nearest the top, have a kind of protection demonstrably NOT afforded the gimps in the lower levels. All we need to do to see this in action is look at who gets prosecuted for, say, torture.
And private citizens is an overly broad category that includes a lot of people who don’t work for the NSA which has, I’m guessing, rather more stringent policies applied to its employees than most other employers in general do. The NSA has historically been a publicity-shy organization. I don’t know how much that has changed (though I’m sure it’s a lot since Snowden’s revelations surfaced) but institutional habits run deep and powerful organizations are powerfully vindictive. Those are just some of the thoughts that surfaced while I was reading and I’m just struggling with where the lines should be drawn…..thanks much for engaging.
Ondelette, you think this article is “doxing”? Seriously? I don’t think you know what doxing is.
So to spell it out to genius here, Ondy, where are the difficult to obtain private records? Where in the article is his real name or address?
Only those of us who have read ondelette’s angry egotistical outbursts over the years can really appreciate the comedy of this:
(or as the hulk would say more elegantly: “Ondy mad!, Ondy smash!!”)
To the best of my recollection, nobody has ever accused ondelette of having empathy, or for that matter self-awareness (ego?, yes, in spades). And this post gives us a taste of how it’s all about ondelette. Be sure to keep posting in open comment forums Ondy, how you are done with commenting, and are really into keeping your identity secret, from, …whoever cares? I guess.
Beyond a doubt this is a case of doxxing. Somebody had a column under a pseudonym, it attracted somebody’s attention, and he attempted to figure out who the author was. It’s no different here than on Usenet or 4chan or anywhere else.
However, the apocalyptic arguments just don’t cut it. If there is some national security reason why the identity of a translator must not get out, then why is he revealing personal details about himself in a news column that was apparently quite widely distributed within the NSA’s network even before Snowden made his disclosure? Why are they letting him (or anyone) distribute that column, let alone encouraging it?
The thing we have to bear in mind is that the people the U.S. has to worry about, the North Koreans (?) who hacked Sony, the Syrian Electronic Army that hacked a whole mess of media and Wall Street in about a week last year … that kind of organization can do its own doxxing. And it’s not going to do it for our entertainment. For example, if the NSA were ready to fire one of its translators for being doxxed, then there should be somebody in Syria who is ready to tell a dozen translators that their doxxes are about to come out — unless they do him a favor now and then. And I imagine the Russians are much more competent than that.
Doxxing is often a very low journalism, a sort of pointless assault that can have a disturbing impact, but I’m not ready to believe the NSA should have special immunity against it. The immunity we need to develop should be nationwide – based on a deliberate and calculated effort to deny doxxers the ultimate goals of their harassment, most notably the firing of those targeted. If we as a country can learn to circle like musk-oxen and stand up to bullies as a matter of habit, then doxxing will be a pointless and harmless exercise and we will focus more on the issues, such as “anonymization” of personal details, that it incidentally brings up.
– “Beyond a doubt this is a case of doxxing. Somebody had a column under a pseudonym, it attracted somebody’s attention, and he attempted to figure out who the author was. It’s no different here than on Usenet or 4chan or anywhere else.”
Interesting definition. But it doesn’t seem to match many other definitions currently in use. Many definitions seem to include the “private contact information” component.
This is doxing:
http://www.thehollywoodgossip.com/2015/07/donald-trump-gives-out-lindsey-grahams-cell-phone-number-continu/
Ask the experts: https://encyclopediadramatica.se/Dox . Or see Wikipedia on “doxing”. The Hollywood Gossip doesn’t have standing.
– “Ask the experts…The Hollywood Gossip doesn’t have standing.”
I’ve already posted three definitions of “doxing” on this page alone. But if you are looking for a publication that has standing, you will be looking a long time. English is a living and evolving language.
I’ve got a better idea, you find a sentence in the English language where “doxing” is used in any way to even remotely describe something akin to what Peter Maass writes in this article.
Well, I’ll admit the weird wrinkle here is that he doesn’t actually post a trove of documents as per an old fashioned doxxing. But he provides a roadmap that makes all of them easy to find, and find them we have/will. The situation is very vaguely analogous to Barrett Brown posting a link to a trove of hacked documents, and then being blamed for “releasing” them. Now to be clear, I never wanted Barrett Brown prosecuted, nor do I think that this open source doxxing (even if the documents were posted) would be comparable to a hack … but I’m not going to call it entirely ‘non-creepy’ either. What it is, really, is as the author says, a demonstration of the power of ‘anonymized’ information. Which is a fair point to make, but a disturbing one to take. The point of recognizing that this is a doxxing is so that we realize we should take the high ground and not see it go on into the sort of harassment that often goes hand in hand with that.
Ondelette
I wish I could say I’m sorry to see you go, because occasionally you have something to offer discussions. Occasionally. But on balance I can’t honestly say I’ll miss you.
Here’s my beef with your neurotic desire for anonymity. If that desire is born of keeping the secrets of others out of professional ethical obligations that’s one thing. And if outing you would somehow infringe those obligations or out their identities, then I could see why you are so paranoid.
But if what you do is so dependent upon your identity not being known, and/or your vocation or profession is one that doesn’t permit you to stand behind your opinions openly, then one of several things is likely true, a) the organization you work for has its priorities all screwed up if its employees aren’t allowed to have public opinions on matters of public importance (assuming you don’t disclose sensitive internal information or that of your clients/patients whatever, b) you are more interested in your personal financial well being as a result of that employment choice than you are of being a human being who has a legal and moral right to hold and espouse any opinion you choose as long as it doesn’t violate the law, or c) you’re entirely too self-important and full of shit and have always been entirely too self-important and full of shit.
Like I said, I wish I was sad to see you go but I’m not. And I expect most around here aren’t.
For what it’s worth rr, I believe this to be true of ondelette:
If that desire is born of keeping the secrets of others out of professional ethical obligations that’s one thing. And if outing you would somehow infringe those obligations or out their identities, then I could see why you are so paranoid.
There really are professions where a person must maintain anonymity to protect innocents. ondelette’s other qualities as judged in these comment sections notwithstanding, I firmly believe that the above applies.
@ Pedinska
Fair enough, but I’ve always had a hard time understanding what that profession is that simply disclosing that he/she works in it, could jeopardize his/her obligations or the identity of those he/she assists or represents. Human rights workers aren’t anonymous. Diplomats aren’t anonymous. Doctors Without Borders employees aren’t anonymous. Most government employees except covert operatives aren’t anonymous. Rape counselors aren’t anonymous. Psychiatrists, psychologists, therapists and other medical professionals aren’t anonymous. And none of them feel the need to not have an opinion under their own name. Just don’t divulge others identities (or facts that would lead to their identities) in having your opinions or employing facts to support them, or violate your ethical obligations to any particular individual.
If Ondelette would simply disclose the field that he/she works in and precisely how exposing his/her own identity would comprise those ethical obligations I’d be more sympathetic. But like I’ve said, over the years, I’ve come to the conclusion the Ondelette has some “issues” that make his/her paranoia irrational and not make any coherent sense. I’m conceding there may be some profession that I’ve never considered, but for the life of me I’ve never figured out what it could be that would impose the ethical obligations that Ondelette describes and which supports Ondelette’s paranoia and positions.
I wasn’t raised not to stand up openly for what I believe. I was raised to shoulder the consequences my mistakes, to admit wrong, and to change an opinion or belief based on better information or more rational or moral way of thinking about the situation. There’s no shame in that for me, it’s part of being human. It’s why I’ve never hidden my identity here or anywhere. I’m willing to defend what I say or write under any an all circumstances. If that hurts me socially or economically so be it. Anybody that holds it against me I know hasn’t taken the time to know me or what I’m about at personal level so I don’t care what they think. I don’t put my personal economic self-interest (or material desires) before my integrity and beliefs to the degree I’m capable.
It’s one of the biggest problems I have with us all playing ball with the logic of capitalism. What does it teach the children of the world that you can rationalize almost anything in the name of your (or your families’) economic self-interest? We play ball under a system that forces us all, to one degree or another, to not be, morally or intellectually, fully actualized human beings. And by its very design, to not be accountable for the consequences of our actions. It’s a weird form of slavery or neo-feudalism. And it is very dangerous in my opinion. We are obligated to keep quiet, submissive and docile about what matters most in life for fear of being cut off from the economic pipeline of our “livelihoods”. It is fundamentally anathema to any sort of political autonomy and democratic accountability. It is “the problem”, IMHO, from which most others originate. That’s not to say it is impossible for some to find a niche where they don’t have to make those “sacrifices” but the question becomes, why should anybody? So people can have flat screen TVs and running shoes? I don’t get it. Never have.
I’m still lurking here, and I’m not comfortable with your admittedly too-caffeinated ramblings, so rather than make Pedinska answer to them, let’s just see if you can understand at all, or whether your belief in your supposed values and Mona’s belief that she knows everything about all professions just by being a lawyer get in the way. I’m still leaving — as long as unethical reporters like Peter Maass are engaging in surveillance and calling it journalism, this place is really no better than News of the World, and a threat to those it judges targetable.
Let’s start with this, shall we? First point, you’ve known my gender for several years now, so don’t bullshit your soon to be “reader’s column” readership with your faux gender sensitivities.
Second point, I’ve disclosed several “fields” that I work in over the years. None of those disclosures has ever stopped you from deciding what I do and don’t do all on your own, and using your decision to criticize. You know I’m a mathematician. You know I’m a health care worker. Etc., etc. You even recommended once that I move up to Oakland so I could do real emergency work, in the mistaken notion that there isn’t any where I live. It makes absolutely no difference to you what I do for a profession, or occupation, or anything else, you’ll have your opinions to the contrary, it’s just what you “wasn’t raised to not do.”
Third point and most important: You have to be somewhat challenged to believe that if someone cannot divulge why they need to remain pseudonymous and protect some of their information, you’ll be fine with that just as long as they tell you here, in front of god and everybody, what it is they’re protecting so you can verify it was right not to talk about it. That’s just plain stupid, and the product of very shoddy thinking, I don’t care whether your long winded essays are considered top of the line by other similar minds.
We went, in short order, from being willing to be sympathetic to judging someone to be irrational, paranoid, and incoherent. We’re sitting at the bottom of an article by Fourth Estate Spook Peter Maass in which he’s completely baffled by the behavior of the person he’s been surveilling without a warrant or even a howdy do, who with all the data he’s amassed cannot predict one simple behavior that the person would take, mostly because he doesn’t understand anonymity at all, and you’re deciding that if you can’t figure it out, the person’s crazy? That’s quite the ego you “wasn’t brought up not to do.”
It’s quite simple, really. I’ve been extremely careful to make sure you didn’t have that information, because I have to make sure it doesn’t show up where people can see it. That’s why. No irrationality, paranoia, or incoherence at all. It’s a quite coherent circumscription of information done rationally with the purpose of making sure somebody doesn’t see something. That’s all. And it’s not only my lawful expectation of privacy and therefore the minimum ethical standard of privacy to do so, it’s your professional ethics to back the fuck off on that. You have no grounds to seek that information, and it won’t be provided. Ever. And you will never have such grounds. Ever.
Well, that’s big of you. You’re conceding there may be some profession you’ve never considered that may impose such ethical obligations, but you don’t know what the hell it is. And then, you put up a second post, after Pedinska rather honorably said she thought this might have something to do with it, listing all the professions you could think of, I guess, and broadly stating that they could all speak non-anonymously.
Actually at least one of those, probably more, you got wrong. But never mind, the lawyer’s mind defends the right to just hold to the bare letter of an ethical obligation or law, and not really consider what a moral principle may have at it’s heart and therefore what it implies on behavior.
Even an emergency services worker knows more about moral and ethical duties to act than you and your sidekick lawyer Mona — about things you can’t do that aren’t spelled out in some creed or pompous bar association ethics page. And many of them are paid minimum wage and never went to anywhere near as much school as you. And I wouldn’t rely on any of the acclaimed journalists who grace these pages for advice on such things. The level of twisted belief that freedom of the press includes freedom to use any means necessary to dig up information here is pretty damned astounding. Freedom of the press is freedom to publish, and that may include things that were obtained from someone who broke the law (e.g. whistleblower) but it certainly doesn’t include a complete relief from any and all laws or ethical considerations in the gathering of information.
Finally, please stop pretending that it’s incumbent on others to justify their behavior to you or be labeled nuts. You are very, very far from an omniscient well-informed person when it comes to situations that require anonymity. You have no experience that I can see outside your tiny little American shell and you have no experience that I can see with the possibility of atrocious retribution. The most that most of you here can come up with as a consequence for doing the wrong thing is getting fired. You don’t actually know squat about anonymity, confidentiality, or secrecy, and it’s always obvious when you write comments like this. If you want lesson 1 on these things, it’s this: Just not talking about somebody doesn’t end your obligations to protect them, because the obligation is protection, not proscribing words. Tattoo that on your “wasn’t brought up not to’s” and memorize it, RR. Then maybe you’ll be able to review your list of “professions” and come to a more nuanced conclusion.
Thank you, Pedinska, for trying to point out sanity to these people.
Yes, coram nobis, I have a copy and am reading it and sending it to others.
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Not many. What professions come to mind?
Not many. What professions come to mind?
Well, I’m sorry, but I don’t have a list handy at the moment.
There are a lot of things I don’t know about lawyering and confidentiality, but just because I can’t produce a list of those things doesn’t mean I can’t stretch my mind a bit to imagine that they might exist.
But I honestly cannot come up with professions that require online anonymity to protect others. Sure, such a few might exist but I’ll be damned if I can list any.
Moreover, based on Ondelette’s behavior I’m FAR more inclined to attribute this (from rrheard) as the basis for Ondelette’s frequent lamentations about his “threatened” anonymity:
The problem I see, in general, with listing categories as rr did – which is not say it isn’t useful – is that,as humans, we have a tendency to want to say that only one is the perfect fit when, in fact, others may apply to some degree or other. Arguing for the strength in applicability of one is not the same as discarding, in entirety, the others. :-)
This authoritarian pseudo-intellectual’s disdain for those who are more honest, thoughtful, decent, intelligent, and who are much better writers than he, is such that he’s become rattled enough withdraw from their presence for good. He can no longer muster the cognitive dissonance to deny his inadequacy.
Except, of course, he’ll be back sooner rather than later to continue his posturing, because it’s essential to his ego that he convince us of his worthiness, nay, his superiority. Then he’ll easily be shown up again as a feeb and a fraud, and he’ll scamper away in a tantrum. Lather, rinse, repeat.
Ondelette, I am sorry to see you depart.
If you’re still checking posts, check this out, could you?
http://www.defense.gov/pubs/Law-of-War-Manual-June-2015.pdf
tl;dr: “One day, you’ll all be sorry!”
…that was a revolving door.
What a shame the Snowden archive didn’t include the info and writing samples of those who were rejected by the NSA.
Talk about unfulfilled lives full of bitterness… maybe a couple of them will turn whistleblower as a result?
As for the comments about it being illegal for our soldiers, government employees and spooks to visit TI and other outlets, I would be willing to bet a shiny new nickel that there is an exception for the staffers tasked with monitoring and analyzing such things… and of course when collecting it all, analysts reviewing what their targets are reading no doubt get some exposure as well.
So don’t despair. When we heap our praise and admiration on them, at least a few do get to read it.
Given all this tremendous publicity, I don’t doubt that Socrates could now score big with a book agent & publisher if only he can dig out and assemble copies of enough of his past writings — and if only he will follow through with the conceit of using Socrates as his nom de plume. Mind, he might need first to submit his writings to the NSA for publication-approval, as per the rules @ the CIA.
Albeit informed by as little as I have been able to read of the socratic oeuvre so far, I can pretty much guarantee I shall be giving his book a shitty review.
More like one of the Tyrants of Athens raised after the hemlock without benefit of Socrates’ guidance. This really perverts “the unexamined life is not worth living.”
Maybe Foucault or Bentham would have been more appropriate philosophers after whom to name their propaganda column.
Excellent, creepy story. Thanks Mr. Maas.
Thanks back at you.
I hope Socrates finds Scientology soon. It’s just the place for someone who wants to reveal ALL of himself. They even have a polygraph of sorts.
LOL, perfect idea.
I’m so glad I read The Intercept! Its writing like this that changes the world and people’s minds. Cleverly written and acridly true. There is perhaps no better way to make the point (within real ethical boundaries) than to do it like this.
Thanks, I appreciate it.
This guy is not so different than anybody else. Maybe a little more desirous of recognition than the next guy but that does not make him a bad person (maybe a bad writer). By way of observation, the NSA career path was Plan B. This was not his dream job but a fall back position. What stories do we need to invent to convince ourselves that what we do is necessary and important? As entertaining as his self-justification is, it’s equally depressing. Regardless of where you stand on lawless state sponsored mass information gathering, this guy deserves sympathy. He is wounded, and although an aspiring writer, can’t find the words or vocabulary to express it. This describes a lot of good people.
Hear, hear! Wherever you see people doxxed, whether it is online or in good old fashioned office politics, the ignorant crowd always falls into the same trap. They think once they know a thing or two about someone, that makes the person they know about less worthy. It doesn’t really matter what end of the spectrum someone is on – they can be put down because they are too wild and unpredictable or too staid and depressed, too chaste or too sluttish, whatever. Our sympathy belongs with someone who, given any reasonable chance to do so, would write stories for our pleasure and not spy on us at all.
Yes, he is hurting, and isn’t it odd that in our nation more of us claim to feel pain than those half staved in war zones? Look how fat we are and still hungering for something no one else can give us, no matter how much or hard we take it.
This is the psychology NSA depends upon to drive the bus. Doubt everything. Give up hope, no rope for that now.
The only thing about your comment which I want to question is
the idea of “good people” and “bad people.”
As you indicate, humans are a continuum of behaviors and
none of us are really disconnected from what we see as
good and bad. I don’t believe there is an either/or as much as we need to try to
find a balance and possibly have a more positive effect on the world,
in spite of the reality of our inescapable guilt.
The greatest danger of the surveillance state is
that the people who do the most to enable it to grow
(and none of us are totally guilt-free)
depend upon broad categorizations of good and bad which
are manipulations of feelings of insecurity (another inescapable aspect).
Perhaps Mr. Socrates’ writing would improve if he thought better
of other people’s private lives.
I’m just DYING to read Infection! “She was born to kill me…”
What a dope, she’s just the vessel, Dan Brown!
From this I assume he’s got no air in the room for anyone but his own needs. Just what the country needs, more needy people.
Socrates Jr. cast his nets into the nearly infinite seas of the internets, trying to haul forth pearls of human drama for his stories. His best result was a fellow whose girlfriend gave him herpes; this shows the filters on XKeyscore need to be improved. Surely with a bit of effort, he could have located an example that involved a more serious STD.
more LOL!
Half of US’s sexually active have HPV, so lots of folks are asking “How did I get this?” Can you see the hilarity of the three step search system, now? Imagine the potential, Bacons!! Flirting with Disaster times THREE! Are YOU my HPV’s daddy?
Three stepping with the gal who love bugged me for national security. So stupid, you can get that bug just by sharing razors, boyz! So that’s what you tell NSA when they ask why you got the same strain your assignee has, OK, bugger?
I must say I do feel sorry for this man because he’s now the butt of our hostlity toward NSA and all those who pervert justice to grind this stinking protection racket in our faces. NSA must be so relieved.
Glad I’m not him. I suck at writing, too, but I know better than to let NSA tell me what to say. Now he hasn’t a clue who he is.
I say fuck you, too, GCHQ! We couldn’t have destroyed our civil liberties without you, Ripper Van Winkle.
If you’re willing to push the limits of propriety, there’s someone else I’d love to see a journalist track down: patient B-19 from this remarkable story ( http://www.violence.de/heath/jnmd/1972paper.pdf ). He was 24 years old in 1972, the son of a retired military officer, and was diagnosed with various serious psychiatric diseases such as homosexuality and an appreciation of LSD. Admittedly, I wouldn’t be surprised if his traumatized brain didn’t just hemorrhage out long ago, or if he finally rage-quit a rigged game, but if he’s still out there, I would really love to hear his story.
I’d also love to know if a good reporter can FOIA whatever CIA-funded research Robert Galbraith Heath did that might have been so extreme he *didn’t* publish it openly in 1972.
Pretty burdensome to force your writing to pay your way when you haven’t even got the yoke on it, yet. That’s why I am grateful for the year plus spent woodshredding in the Intercept’s silo. This corn is from last season.
This story gives new meaning to the term Ministry of Truth, notwithstanding the axiom “an eye for an eye”.
I’ve got $10k that says heads are exploding at the NSA. Wait till someone spies on every license plate in their parking lot.
Jon Proctor deserves a prize for that graphic.
Yes, he did a great job on it. He also did the (great) illustration for this story by Trevor Aaronson–https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/03/16/howthefbicreatedaterrorist/.
I’ve got $1k that says this scumbag is the latest applicant to Google for his “right to be forgotten”.
The “Right to be Forgotten” only applies in Europe. Google has explicitly stated the rule applies to each google entity separately, such as google.fr, and not google.com.
To the censor’s eye, any sign of obedience is a sign of opportunity. Offer them a finger and they’ll take half your damn hand. See http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/06/technology/personaltech/right-to-be-forgotten-online-is-poised-to-spread.html?_r=0 .
umm.. you’re kidding…right? I’d pay for a rolling eyes smiley about now. And a double face palm. Hey pal..I gotta suggestion for ya. Instead of staying up late at night correcting computer generated news typos…visit a comedy club.
I noticed the notices Pforzheimer’s Third turded all over the Internet eight years ago have been erased, so was it true he nearly married Zooey Deshanel, or was that a figment of HIS imagination, too?
I was just running down the Old Man, the capo of the tutti clan. Couldn’t see the wood for all the fucking leaves! But I found him where I thought I might, in the corporate papers of Tea Pot’s Dome. Bring it home, dopers! I love data! But my net comes up so empty ,lately. The guilty prefer to be forgotten.
I WILL find out Tree’s family name, if I do nothing else on this planet!
I prefer emotional vampire to literary eavesdropper. How about Halifax’ John hanging around like his ex-wife is some fruit he can pollinate if he’d had a mind to. Like he’s writing a novel…he’s just searching for someone more screwed up than he is to tell himself a bedtime story. He’s a manipulative alcoholic who thinks he’s a writer. So glad a comic book kicked his ass.
Still think killing off lesbian lovers is a fucking crime, BBC feed bags. Three in one season? Seriously? That’s a serial crime! Didn’t run that passed the pedos for a good taste off, PBS? So glad you showed yourselves, how ever covertly.
This guy reminds me of a Morrissey song – Girl Least Likely:
How many times have I been around?
Recycled papers paving the ground
Well, she lives for the written word
And people come second, or possibly third
And there is no style, but I say “well done”
To the girl least likely to
Oh, deep in my heart, how I wish I was wrong
But deep in my heart, I know I am not
And there’s enough gloom in her world, I’m certain
Without my contribution
So I sit, and I smile, and I say “well done”
To the girl least likely to
Page after page of sniping rage
An English singe or an American tinge
“There’s a publisher,” she said, “…in the new year”
(It’s never in this year)
I do think this, but I can’t admit it
To the girl least likely to
So one more song with no technique
One more song which seems all wrong…
And oh, the news is bad again
See me as I am again
And the scales of justice sway one way
In the rooms of those least likely to
Oh, deep in my heart, how I want to be wrong
But the moods and the styles too frequently change
From twenty one to twenty five, from twenty five to twenty nine
And I sit, and I smile, and I say “well done”
To the girl least likely to
Oh, one more song about The Queen
Or standing around the shops with thieves
“But somebody’s got to make it!” she screams
“So why why can’t it be me?”
But she would die if we heard her sing from the heart
Which is hurt
So how many times will I shed a tear?
And another stage of verse to cheer
When you shine in the public eye, my dear
Please remember these nights
When I sit and support with a dutiful smile
Because there’s nothing I can say
So chucking, churning, and turning the knife
On everything (except their own life)
And a clock somewhere strikes midnight
And an explanation – it drains me
If only there could be a way
There is a different mood all over the world
A different youth, unfamiliar views
And dearest, it could all be for you
So will you come down and I’ll meet you?
And with no more poems, with nothing to hear
Oh darling, it’s all for you…
Darling, it’s all for you…
Oh darling, it’s all for you…
Oh darling, it’s all for you…
That was nice to read. But he should have never left The Smiths. Except for “Suedehead.”
Wow, you actually figured out how to uncloak this dagger without hacking HIM?
James Harding’s crew, including the company lawyer at the London Times, simply decided hacked data could be made edible if they could fabricate a way to discovered it legally – as you did, thus leaving the fruit of their hacking not so poisony, you see? What did they drink for lunch?
With this in mind, Harding lied to a judge that his staff had not hacked for the identity of a copper who blogged anonymously when Harding knew it was a twisted lie. A blame my lame lawyer move. The lawyer swan dived onto his sword for them in a scene not written but must be seen!
Can’t tell me that’s not quality work. Harding got made into the BBC Family promptly after getting fired by Murdoch, but not for that hacking. I say, that was some hilarious work of history played out at the Leveson Inquiry. We really need to give her an award.
Mr. Jay and Lord Levesons’ duets on the subject were quite sonorous. And the eye rolls were to dive for.
– “Parallel construction”
Maybe this episode is all our would-be writer needs. He can gain celebrity, make a book out of it and get the Zero Dark Thirty creators to change a few facts and give it the Hollywood treatment, Peter Maass will be known in the film as “the Ayatollah”, the Intercept could be built on top of a secret lair for Putin and Bernie Sanders, and our writer would be played as a mild mannered bureaucrat by day, a swashbuckling hero by night, his secret power? He’s a human polygraph machine.
Movie catchphrase – “Don’t lie to me, only those that are deserving of my country’s wrath need lie to me!”
quote”He’s a human polygraph machine.
Movie catchphrase – “Don’t lie to me, only those that are deserving of my country’s wrath need lie to me!”unquote
Give this man a prize.
I don’t think our stories are worth selling out for. Seriously, no one cares about the loose threads at the Intercept, but I know GCHQ has to read through this shite, and that’s why I write. Fuck you, GCHQ.
Justice, she’s a tease, but Liberty will bring you to your knees. Did you see what she did to Justice just for looking? Shes blind, Jim.
Take a bow, Justice.
Mr. Peter Maass:
Socrates (the columnist) insisted that total surveillance would allow the NSA to understand us and not mistake our intentions. His inaugural column even suggested that the NSA’s slogan could be “building informed decision makers — so that targets do not suffer our nation’s wrath unless they really deserve it — by exercising deity-like monitoring of the target.” Yet Socrates probably knows, as most writers do, that what we say does not necessarily reflect what is in our minds.
“building informed decision makers — so that targets do not suffer our nation’s wrath unless they really deserve it — by exercising deity-like monitoring of the target.”
COMMENT: Mob rule. Lawlessness. Criminality. Playing God.
Regarding Socrates’ expressed hope to be “constantly and completely monitored,” an incident in 2013 suggests that this might be happening to people who work in the SIGINT community. I run a website called AntiPolygraph.org. Two summers ago, I heard from a Navy petty officer who worked in SIGINT unit that when (s)he reported for a recent polygraph, (s)he was presented with a printout of logs of websites (s)he had visited the night before on her/his personal computer. The polygrapher knew that the petty officer had visited AntiPolygraph.org and tried to convince her/him that the information provided on our website (which includes a refutation of polygraphy and strategies for mitigating the risk of a false positive outcome) was unreliable. For additional details, see: https://antipolygraph.org/blog/2013/10/20/is-antipolygraph-org-being-targeted-by-the-nsa/
George: Thank you so much for your organization. I can’t believe in this day and age that individuals and agences are still allowed to use this hocus pocus. When I was stationed in a MI-6 type unit in Germany, I had a nice conversation with the head of our polygraph section. This man, who was a past president of the American Polygraph Association, advised me to NEVER submit to a polygraph, due to all the inherent problems. That told me all I needed to know.
Answering your leding question…fabulous fabrications? Parallel constructions the Academy would have been honored to have honored? Bitterness is a pill better not swallowed before commanding an art form redesigned to destroy personal liberties. See Hitler.
I’m very able to construct a suspect motive or few out of nuttin’ but history as my template. Take Google’s move to become more efficient and managable by busting themselves into Block Letters. Also a move typical for those looking to shelter the profitable part of the company from the consequences of corruption (FCPA) and leave the dying portion for the settlement lawyers to scrap over. See NewsCorp.
Did they actually call this poor soul “Socrates”?
Brought to you by the same marketing minds behind the “Big Brother” reality TV show.
And “Honey Boo Boo”.
It was a casting call. The character was already written for him. Monkee Madness care of the New Wrecking Crew. I like the drummer!!
Peter I am curious to know if you informed Socrates about the publication date of this piece? I wonder if he might be lurking here now, reading comments. If so, I would encourage him to engage – though I can only imagine the sort of trepidation that might produce – so that all of us might learn from this experience.
Doxxing, as I understand it, is incredibly uncomfortable, sometimes dangerous, but like other uncomfortable learning experiences – wherein we find ourselves suddenly in shoes we never imagined occupying in our lifetimes – it can be enlightening and lead to better or, at least, more informed consequences.
Comment sections can be cruel places, and I would hope that we could engage with compassion as well as curiosity if only because most of us have, at some point in our lives, had to do something our employers – or others with power over our lives – asked of us that we disagreed with and/or felt was wrong. Glass houses, “let he who is without sin cast the first stone”, etc. and all that….
– “I wonder if he might be lurking here now, reading comments. If so, I would encourage him to engage”
You are perhaps forgetting this:
– “The U.S. military is banning and blocking employees from visiting The Intercept in an apparent effort to censor news reports that contain leaked government secrets.”
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/08/20/u-s-military-bans-the-intercept/
Socrates, I would expect, doesn’t want to go to jail, but perhaps if he is even thinking about reading this, he should self-report to the authorities anyway, lest their less than total picture of him cause them to mistake his intentions.
;)
– “I would encourage him to engage”
By the way, Pedinska, by encouraging a US intelligence officer to access classified material (here at the Intercept), and by soliciting his engaging in further unauthorized disclosure, I’m pretty sure a John Yoo clone would say you are conducting espionage, treason, and even yes, skulduggery!!! Yes skulduggery is now a crime, see appendix B, tab 14 of the secret OLC memo in Dick Cheney’s safe.
What this statement lacks totally is the ability to walk in the shoes of the person being doxxed. In this case, the general sentiment here is that doxxing this guy is okay since he’s NSA and said he believed in total surveillance.
I’m guessing that someone who truly believes that doxxing is an “uncomfortable learning experience” and doesn’t seem to understand that there are some things that are worth, to paraphrase the Daoists, learning not learning, doesn’t really know much about people who fear it.
In my case, for instance, I’m sure it would be an “uncomfortable learning experience.” And after that, as the “uncomfortable learning” continued to roll out, and real harm happened, I would be the only one aware of exactly what I was learning so uncomfortably, while the doxxer would drift on in their internet blissfully righteous daydream believing themselves to be a banner carrier in the parade for truth and justice.
They might even trot out one of Greenwald’s completely idiotic tropes about how if nobody could link to a news story of actual harm, it never happened.
Which is, of course, the most non-introspective notion of all.
He states: “I found myself wishing that my life would be constantly and completely monitored”. In other words, he wishes to be a celebrity. The Intercept is merely granting that request. Of course, sometimes we have to be careful what we wish for. Walter James Palmer probably wished to be the world’s most famous bow and arrow hunter.
And George Zimmerman probably wished to be the worlds most famous Intern Neighborhood Watchman in training.
Perhaps oddly, should he choose to make use of the experience, all of this could very well wind up getting him published, thus paying off for him should he choose to leave NSA. I’d imagine he could get at least a high five figure to mid six figure advance for writing something not even revealing anything of a classified nature. Then a position could open up for the next ‘Socrates’.
What this statement lacks totally is the ability to walk in the shoes of the person being doxxed.
ondelette, I had an enormous amount of empathy and rage on behalf of people whose Fourth Amendment rights were being trampled….right up until my sister’s significant other was killed by fucking police for stolen baby clothes brought into their residence (unbeknownst to them) by Children’s Services who were given them by the people who sicced the police on my sister’s household knowing that a child they were forced to turn over to my sister’s keeping would be there during an armed, night-time, no-knock raid. After that, I knew firsthand what it felt like.
None of us completely understands the shoes of others unless we’ve been in them. That is human nature. That doesn’t mean that my, admittedly, poorly worded statement is evidence I think what happened to this guy, in this article, is just fine and dandy or that you get to blithely assign all the ills of commenters here to my rap sheet.
None of us are birthed with a complete knowledge of everything that is. No matter how often you think we should know this, that or the other thing, nor however poorly we fail to live up to your standards, the plain and simple fact is that we learn from the day we are born to the day we die. I am doing the best I can to try each and every day to improve my empathy and understanding of what happens to myself and to everyone around me. But you have now decided you can shove me into the box you maintain for all things that suck on Greenwald’s site and now you’re gone so no discussion. So be it.
Addendum: My first thoughts/comment on a given article is often couched in as neutral terms as possible to allow me to further evolve as I have time to further ponder what I’ve read.
My brain may not reach conclusions with the lightning-like rapidity others might desire of me – a lot of times, if not most, because I DON’T have firsthand experience – but that doesn’t mean I – or anyone else wrestling with understanding – should be written off for not getting it right in the first fucking milliseconds it crosses my eyeballs and/or that part of my brain responsible for processing it. :-s
Meh. So he says. I don’t believe it.
I was in contact with an NSA spokesperson about this story as recently as last week; the agency was made aware that it was going to be published.
I’ve wondered how long it will be
before the NSA collects so much information that they reach the point
of putting together an immensely tense raid against an extremely
dangerous terrorist organization and find themselves
face to face
with themselves.
Now I hear this –
from “the Smiths”
“Frankly Mr. Shankley, this position I’ve held
it pays my way and it corrodes my soul
I want to leave, you will not miss me
I want to go down in musical history
Frankly Mr. Shankley, I’m a sickening wreck
I’ve got the 21st Century breathing down my neck
I must move fast, you understand me
I want to go down in celluloid history
Fame, Fame, fatal fame
It can play hideous tricks on the brain
But still, I’d rather be famous than righteous or Holy
Any day, any day, any day
But sometimes I feel more fulfilled
Making christmas cards with the mentally ill
I want to live and I want to love
I want to catch something that I might be ashamed of
Frankly Mr. Shankley, this position I’ve held
It pays my way and it corrodes my soul
I didn’t realize that you wrote poetry
I didn’t realize you wrote such bloody awful poetry
Frankly Mr. Shankley, since you ask
You are a flatulent pain in the arse
I do not mean to be so rude
but I must speak franky Mr. Shankley
Oh,
Give us money.”
Indeed Clark, not Frankly Mr. Shankley but the story reminds me of Girl Least Likely To lyrics, how odd.
More Smiths! I remember EXACTLY where I was when I first heard that song!
Unless and until surveillance can literally climb into our heads and monitor our thoughts, know our motives, the above statement by Socrates is unbelievably, naively false. And I would think that no one, even Socrates, would want the government to exist inside our heads.
As we are seeing now, with the DHS surveillance and targeting for arrest of key, nonviolent organizers in the current Ferguson protests as well as the journalists who are reporting on it – both First Amendment protected activities – the decision making over “just desserts” is uncontrolled, no longer subject to the law, if it ever was, and solely focused on maintaining current power structures.
Democratic man as quintessential Quisling. One of our little Eichmanns. No different than the communist loyalist who confesses to whatever Stalin wanted for the good of the Party. Ironically, Stalin was first a poet, Hitler a failed painter. The self loathing of artistic failure, turned inwards masochistically to embrace totalitarianism. No doubt now the name of this article’s author is currency in the agency, yet we the people can know nothing of what they say. Thus perish the highest hopes and dreams of a people, exchanged for a mess of denigrating national security state pottage.
To all the NSA analysts the truth who find the polygraph “a unique kind of torture,” I empathize. Polygraph “testing” has no scientific basis, and misplaced official reliance on it has caused irreparable career harm to many federal applicants and employees. There is no need to “overanalyze” one’s behavior. Polygraph outcomes have little to do with whether or not one has spoken the truth. The polygraph is essentially a prop for an interrogation. See my commentary on the NSA’s disinformational polygraph video “The Truth About the Polygraph”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93_FDeMENN4
The first sentence of my previous post should read: “To all the NSA analysts who find the polygraph “a unique kind of torture,” I empathize.”
A combination of a painful need to be heard and understood with the fear of being “suspicious” and misjudged. But the real harm is in inflicting this approach on others.
Yes. That is a fair description of how I felt reading this. And, I’d be hard pressed to guess whether the NSA’s Socrates left his blog up because he recognizes the limited real value of his mental meanderings, or if he genuinely trusts that no harm can come to he, or his, as a result of those who were able to identify him after you did. In either case, it would describe someone I would not think fit to surveille others. All encapsulated by his appeal to modesty. This is a I was just following orders… disclaimer if I ever read one. I would even go so far as to assert that, given his appeal to modesty, he lacks sufficient self-awareness and imagination to succeed as a writer. But, therein lies the hazard of thinking you know someone, even as deeply as you delved into his world. The NSA obviously finds him a perfect fit for their purpose.
Thanks, Benito.
– “he lacks sufficient self-awareness and imagination to succeed as a writer”
Exactly. To say the things he’s quoted as saying, he must be sorely lacking in self awareness. I considered a snarky comment about recommending to him one of the online writer’s courses on “self-awareness” but I deferred, I haven’t read his work, and there may be a whole host of reasons nobody reads his stuff.
I translated ‘god’ into ‘NSA’ because omniscience (even more than omnipotence) is the hallmark of a god, and the natural human instinct is to submit, as Socrates did, in the face of an omniscient entity.
The reason he did not remove his blog is because his faith instructs him that if the NSA wishes it to be removed, it will do so. To act of his own volition, without a direct order from the NSA would not occur to him.
Excellent column.
This statement attributed to Socrates (the subject of the article)
reminded me of a recent Guardian article how this sentiment turns into policy.
This is the excruciating problem of “proactive” law enforcement.
If officer Fife thinks someone has a gun and the intention to use it, is he justified in shooting that person presumably preventing an act of violence by initiating an act of violence — by preventing harm through perpetrating harm? (See Iraq War II.)
Putting aside the utilitarian argument (which harm is the least harm) and putting aside the obvious questions of intent, target, and means of discernment, this most glaring issue arises (the basis for all totalitarian States): can a person be justifiably punished for an act they did not commit?
When does the State cross a line as the (legitimate) guarantor of civil rights to become the (illegitimate) violator of civil rights?
No matter how “informed” the “decision maker,” indeed, even accepting the possibility of (an impossible) perfect foreknowledge, punishment for intent (a thought crime) defines the totalitarian State because it necessarily punishes heterodoxy as ferociously as it protects orthodoxy.
Excellent comment
Why not try telling this to Netanyahweh & his supporters apropos Iran.
Preemptive strikes overseas. Preemptive policing at home.
Preemptive clearly unconstitutional unwarranted surveillance of every single American based on reasonable suspicion rather than probable cause.
“Socrates” is philosophically bereft and morally bankrupt. Perhaps some hemlock tea once he gets the kids off to college.
Great comment.
The real Socrates didn’t believe in democracy. He did believe that people who knew better than you do are the ones that should rule, and Socrates claimed to know better than anybody else. He would have been delighted to have mass surveillance available to philosophers, because then he could claim to know even more than mortals, limited to only one pair of eyes.
Socrates is a particularly apt pseudonym here, proclaiming a public ideal, revealing an underlying ugly truth.
I seriously doubt that you’ve ever read The Crito in your life.
Dude:
I think you are NSA ready!
Could you possibly be mistaking Socrates with Plato?
RCL
Interesting comment!
What am I missing here? Why would an investigative reporter lump himself in the same category as a state sponsored spy? Where is there a violation of privacy while researching and gleening information from publically posted blogs/websites?
Because the subject of the story was a powerless functionary, someone not involved in decision making. There are a lot of angry people who would stalk and harass the subject of an article like this.
Even though their job was in service to the surveillance state, they’re a private citizen – not a public figure like a James Clapper. The identity of this person is not newsworthy – we assume the NSA is staffed by human beings who have families and personal histories.
What IS newsworthy is an exploration of a snoop’s mentality, done in a way that walks up to the line of journalistic ethics.
Hmm. Interesting question. Would you accept “everything and the kitchen sink” as a reply, just to make a long story short? If there’s no privacy violation in surveilling a person from their publicly emitted trails, then who the fuck cares if the NSA does it as a full time job?
privacy? What is that anyway?
RCL
I think the ease at which someone can google him, it took me about thirty seconds, proves the point about meta-data admirably.
– “Why shouldn’t the public know about him? What’s wrong with a bit of well-intentioned surveillance among fellow Americans? I was not able to ask these questions, however.
“I can’t say anything,” he said, not long before he hung up. “You can’t use my name.””
Understandable that he doesn’t want to talk, but, totally hilarious that a true believer in total surveillance wants his privacy.
Understandable that he doesn’t want to talk, but, totally hilarious that a true believer in total surveillance wants his privacy.
If he is a thoughtful individual at all then this is a lesson that will not be lost.
Sadly your description shows that the subject of you surveillance is/was a bit of a child in his views. There’s nothing wrong with this, we all are at some level, particularly when young and idealistic. The problem is of course that decisions of life and death are made on such views. This man-child’s, sophomoric, self-serving rationale allowed home to perpetrate, well, crimes.
We should not forget this when thinking about what we allow our leaders and government to do – these are not adults running the game, but flawed children like the rest of us. The difference is just the level of consequence.
As the original Socrates stated (with minor edits):
I googled “blog literature infection short-story herpes editor” and result number 11 (dammit I didn’t get it on the first page on my first try…) is this fellow’s blog. In the spirit of not re-idenitifying him, as you haven’t done in the story, I won’t post the link here.
Just be aware that it wasn’t that hard.
Confirmed, really not that hard.
Wow that was easy.
Also this guy seems like a massive douche.
I don’t think you have the real McCoy ;-)
There are even smiling pictures of him out there
Please, theintercept police, notice I am not exposing him. I am just avoiding for other people to mistake him for someone else
RCL
Outed as a spook and still nobody’s reading his shitty blog!
I just hope he’s a better analyst than writer, he doesn’t exactly inspire confidence in the Notional Security Agency (as if we had any).
Yes, that was really easy.
I get this strange sense of sadness while reading his blog and all the rejection letters he got.
It should sound familiar, as we are mostly concerned with our losses and disappointments in life unless born lucky or with resilient genes. It’s hard to crawl out of the bad grooves one cuts into their own amygdala replaying those sad old songs.
These are the kinds of grooves commonly exploited by conmen, MadMen and NSA to undermine ones sense of well being. Well people wouldn;t tolerate this shite.
Most writers get mostly rejection letters. Most artists aren’t successful, and most writers never get published. The choices people make AFTER those rejections is what defines them, not the rejections themselves. Most people probably don’t have the fortitude to keep fighting. I don’t feel sadness for his rejection letters. I feel sadness that he chose what he chose. That said, he’s a Korean language analyst — he’s not reading (likely) your email. Are people so quick to want to shame people that they’ll jump on the first person they can identify even if it has NOTHING to do with the violations that are done to them, their friends, and their loved ones?
Such hypocrisy in these comments — lots of amateur spies who jump at the first chance to do the sorts of things that they bridle at when it’s done to them.
The spying apparatus wouldn’t fall apart if this guy didn’t write what he wrote. It wouldn’t fall apart if he were shamed — or hundreds like him were shamed. This isn’t one of those ‘if Hitler made it as an artist, none of this would have happened’ sorts of things.
I’m glad I don’t comment on here usually. These comment sections always give me a strange sense of sadness. :(
I didn’t google those terms, because there’s no value in knowing who the subject is. Yet by providing a coy road-map, you’re enabling harassment. Yes, someone was going to post this, but why you?
Result 11 is just as bad as pasting his name.
I was tempted to post who he is (or a path to him, as you have done), but I decided not to because this article isn’t about the person, it’s about the mentality. No doubt there are many more like him in the NSA, and focusing on the person degrades the importance of the NSA spying as a whole.
I think if someone calls himself the “Socrates of SIGINT” and posts a widely-read column, ordinary people don’t have an obligation to keep public information about him, or our deductions about it, secret. We *do* have a moral duty not to harass or threaten, of course. But haters gotta hate – it’s what they do. If some idiot ends up making obscene calls to Weber’s number in the middle of the night, that’s the same person who would have been calling the third guy named as a big game hunter in Zimbabwe or trying to get some CEO fired on a twitter hashtag for donating to the wrong side on a ballot question. Our duty is to be sympathetic to human beings, understanding that the spy state and the state-capitalist monopolist concepts it protects are the disease, not the people who translate Korean. If we had a _decent_ economy as I’ve proposed here previously, the guy would have been able to collect from a general subsidy via privately-selected funding institutions that benefit authors, being assured a decent living while writing stories that anyone in the world would be allowed to read and adapt freely. Instead, the only thing we fund is more spy shit ( like THIS – http://www.nature.com/news/3d-printed-device-helps-computers-solve-cocktail-party-problem-1.18173 ) and that’s the only thing that gets developed. The bastards who pay the piper (with a part of the money they rob from him) only ever call one tune.
Strapped into a polygraph – one of the many lessons waiting for us students of psychology. But noone wanted to be the one. Ten books and with the help of the polygraph it should be easy to find the chosen book. The polygraph relies on human physical nature and the One´s hands were soaked with sweat. Too wet for the polygraph, what a BLAMAGE!
The One asked me years later to participate at an experiment with a polygraph. He was deeply depressed because the experiment was close to fail due to a lack of participation. I agreed and almost felt asleed in the nice and cosy atmosphere of the setting. The experiment was cancelled soon later.
I feel violated just watching “Lie to Me.” Micro expressions. That’s why liars love Botox.
when i was a kid on the play ground i hated the bullies and i instinctivly sided with the heros who stood up to the bullies and punched them in the nose
i didn’t know at the time i was yearning for justice
this thoughtful and powerful article has given me that feeling again
great stuff, yum