The BBC loves to boast about how “objective” and “neutral” it is. But a recent article, which it was forced to change, illustrates the lengths to which the British state-funded media outlet will go to protect one of the U.K. government’s closest allies, Saudi Arabia, which also happens to be one of the country’s largest arms purchasers (just this morning, the Saudi ambassador to the U.K. threatened in an op-ed that any further criticism of the Riyadh regime by Jeremy Corbyn could jeopardize the multi-layered U.K./Saudi alliance).
Earlier this month, the BBC published an article describing the increase in weapons and money sent by Saudi Arabia and other Gulf regimes to anti-Assad fighters in Syria. All of that “reporting” was based on the claims of what the BBC called “a Saudi government official,” who — because he works for a government closely allied with the U.K. — was granted anonymity by the BBC and then had his claims mindlessly and uncritically presented as fact (it is the rare exception when the BBC reports adversarially on the Saudis). This anonymous “Saudi official” wasn’t whistleblowing or presenting information contrary to the interests of the regime; to the contrary, he was disseminating official information the regime wanted publicized. This was the key claim of the anonymous Saudi official (emphasis added):
The well-placed official, who asked not to be named, said supplies of modern, high-powered weaponry including guided anti-tank weapons would be increased to the Arab- and western-backed rebel groups fighting the forces of Syria’s President Bashar al-Assad and his Russian, Iranian and Lebanese allies.
He said those groups being supplied did not include either Islamic State (IS) or al-Nusra Front, both of which are proscribed terrorist organizations. Instead, he said the weapons would go to three rebel alliances — Jaish al-Fatah (Army of Conquest), the Free Syrian Army (FSA) and the Southern Front.
So the Saudis, says the anonymous official, are only arming groups such as the “Army of Conquest,” but not the al Qaeda affiliate the Nusra Front. What’s the problem with this claim? It’s obvious, though the BBC would not be so impolite as to point it out: The Army of Conquest includes the Nusra Front as one of its most potent components. This is not even in remote dispute; the New York Times’ elementary explainer on the Army of Conquest from three weeks ago states:
Who are its members?
The alliance consists of a number of mostly Islamist factions, including the Nusra Front, al Qaeda’s Syrian affiliate; Ahrar al-Sham, another large group; and more moderate rebel factions that have received covert arms support from the intelligence services of the United States and its allies.
The Telegraph, in an early October article complaining that Russia was bombing “non-ISIL rebels,” similarly noted that the Army of Conquest (bombed by Russia) “includes a number of Islamist groups, most powerful among them Ahrar al-Sham and Jabhat al-Nusra. Jabhat al-Nusra is the local affiliate of al-Qaeda.” Even the Voice of America noted that “Russia’s main target has been the Army of Conquest, an alliance of insurgent groups that includes the al-Nusra Front, al-Qaida’s affiliate in Syria, and the hard-line Islamist group Ahrar al-Sham, as well as some less extreme Islamist groups.”
In other words, the claim from the anonymous Saudi official that the BBC uncritically regurgitated — that the Saudis are only arming the Army of Conquest but no groups that “include” the Nusra Front — is self-negating. A BBC reader, Ricardo Vaz, brought this contradiction to the BBC’s attention. As he told The Intercept: “The problem is that the Nusra Front is the most important faction inside the Army of Conquest. So either the Saudi official expected the BBC journalist not to know this, or he expects us to believe they can deliver weapons to factions fighting side by side with an al Qaeda affiliate and that those weapons will not make their way into Nusra’s hands. In any case, this is very close to an official admission that the Saudis (along with Qataris and Turkish) are supplying weapons to an al Qaeda affiliate. This of course is not a secret to anyone who’s paying attention.”
In response to Vaz’s complaint, the BBC did not tell its readers about this vital admission. Instead, it simply edited that Saudi admission out of its article. In doing so, it made the already-misleading article so much worse, as the BBC went even further out of its way to protect the Saudis. This is what that passage now states on the current version of the article on the BBC’s site (emphasis added):
He said those groups being supplied did not include either Islamic State (IS) or al-Nusra Front, both of which are proscribed terrorist organizations. Instead, he said the weapons would go to the Free Syrian Army and other small rebel groups.
So originally, the BBC stated that the “Saudi official” announced that the regime was arming the Army of Conquest. Once it was brought to the BBC’s attention that the Army of Conquest includes the al Qaeda affiliate Nusra Front — a direct contradiction of the Saudi official’s other claim that the Saudis are not arming Nusra — the BBC literally changed the Saudi official’s own statement, whitewashed it, to eliminate his admission that they were arming Army of Conquest. Instead, the BBC now states that the Saudis are arming “the Free Syrian Army and other small rebel groups.” The BBC simply deleted the key admission that the Saudis are arming al Qaeda. As Vaz told The Intercept:
This is an incredible whitewashing effort! Before they were directly quoting the Saudi official, and he explicitly referred to “three rebel alliances,” including “Jaish al-Fatah” [Army of Conquest]. There is no way a journalist was told “other small rebel groups” and understood what was written before. In their reply to my complaint they said the mistake was an “editorial oversight,” which is truly laughable. What we saw was a prestigious western media outlet surrendering the floor to an anonymous official from the most medieval of regimes, the official pretty much saying that they were going to supply (more) weapons to an al Qaeda affiliate, and instead of pointing this out, the BBC chose to blur the picture and cover the terrorist-arming/funding activities of the Saudis/Qataris/Turkish.
I personally don’t view the presence of al Qaeda “affiliated” fighters as a convincing argument against supporting Syrian rebels. It’s understandable that people fighting against an oppressive regime — one backed by powerful foreign factions — will align with anyone willing and capable of fighting with them. Moreover, the long-standing U.S./U.K. template of branding anyone they fight and kill as “terrorists” or “al Qaeda” is no more persuasive or noble when used in Syria by Assad and the Russians, particularly when used to obscure civilian casualties. And regarding the anti-Assad forces as monolithically composed of religious extremists ignores the anti-tyranny sentiment among ordinary Syrians motivating much of the anti-regime protests, with its genesis in the Arab Spring.
But what this does highlight is just how ludicrous — how beyond parody — the 14-year-old war on terror has become, how little it has to do with its original ostensible justification. The regime with the greatest plausible proximity to the 9/11 attack — Saudi Arabia — is the closest U.S. ally in the region next to Israel. The country that had absolutely nothing to do with that attack, and which is at least as threatened as the U.S. by the religious ideology that spurred it — Iran — is the U.S.’s greatest war-on-terror adversary. Now we have a virtual admission from the Saudis that they are arming a group that centrally includes al Qaeda, while the U.S. itself has at least indirectly done the same (just as was true in Libya). And we’re actually at the point where western media outlets are vehemently denouncing Russia for bombing al Qaeda elements, which those outlets are manipulatively referring to as “non-ISIS groups.”
It’s not a stretch to say that the faction that provides the greatest material support to al Qaeda at this point is the U.S. and its closest allies. That is true even as al Qaeda continues to be paraded around as the prime need for the ongoing war.
But whatever one’s views are on Syria, it’s telling indeed to watch the BBC desperately protect Saudi officials, not only by granting them anonymity to spout official propaganda, but worse, by using blatant editing games to whitewash the Saudis’ own damaging admissions, ones the BBC unwittingly published. There are many adjectives one can apply to the BBC’s behavior here: “Objective” and “neutral” are most assuredly not among them.
Caption: Fighters from al Qaeda’s Syrian affiliate the Nusra Front drive in the northern Syrian city of Aleppo flying Islamist flags as they head to a front line on May 26, 2015.
Feeding one’s allies or enemies to any source or source material whose soul purpose is a never-ending sword of Damocles is, like Stephen said, Jackal Journalism (good way of terming it, person I do not know). I am so disgusted with the media right now. Serves me right, thinking the BBC might have something other than the UK’s political and social, even at times blood-thirsty interests, at heart. If one cannot trust one’s media, one is constantly on edge — which I guess suits the Western Philosophy just fine: Wasn’t this how all that stuff after 9/11 got passed? Make people scared out of their minds of every little thing so they’ll do just about anything to make them THINK it might stop (*of course they can’t or wouldn’t make it stop — profit!). It’s really two sides of the same coin, the way I see it. Seems like something out of the US playbook circa the 70s/80s in Central America, or ala the middle east, as well…
Sincere question — is Saudi Arabia really the UK’s ally, or is it just that the UK wants what Saudi Arabia has (natural resources, et al)? Over and over again we see global ‘allies’ basically acting like an ally until they get a foothold. I’m not a fan of global surveillance, especially of ‘everyday people’ but I can sort of see why governments surveil other governments, given how often they wind up getting walked all over.
Adding: What seems cruelly ironic is that it seems like the governments who vastly outresource the governments (and their people) that they spy on are often the ones who wind up doing the stomping all over — so it’s really not even a fair fight there — the governments that probably NEED the most protection of their own communications systems cannot protect themselves from those who are most likely to send them to overthrow city (or the obituaries, or some place between a rock and a hard place — or just as I said — more Sword of Damocles).
One can look @ YouTube and see al Nusra and other jihadis firing Saudi-supplied TOW missiles at Syrian Army vehicles. That’s ongoing.
Meanwhile, UK and the rest of the West depends on Saudi crude for recreational purposes such as driving cars in aimless circles from gas station to gas station. Nobody is going to risk that … life without a car.
Horrors!
It seems that the author of the BBC article has at least 1,000,000 reasons to try to present pro-Saudi propaganda. The Saudis promised to pay him $1M for shooting him and killing his cameraman Simon Cumbers. They have yet to pay.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3133655/BBC-correspondent-Frank-Gardner-reveals-Saudi-Arabia-offered-1million-compensation-never-paid.html
Sweet mastalay
“I’m laughing quite hard at you for claiming that I overlooked/suppressed/concealed an article that, as Sense pointed out, I actually cited and acknowledged IN THIS VERY ARTICLE.
You came here acting as though you had found some fatal, hidden weapon – when, in fact, I linked to it and wrote about right in the article to which you’re responding.”
Greenwald
Now I am laughing at you due to your inability to understand my basic point. You praise the BBC when they ask tough questions to those you do not like. Whenever they ask you or anybody you support pertinent questions, then you describe the network as a propaganda organization.
Have you decided to ban me yet?
What Gawd-fearing, red-blooded western imperialist wouldn’t love to give weapons to a gang that labels themselves the ‘Army of Conquest’. “Golly, guys, they’re just like us! Bombs away!”
I don’t know what to make of this post, Glen is known and respected for investigative journalism yet this piece seems to be Gotcha Tabloid projection, guilt by imprecise rhetoric, using easy targets, BBC, KSA, to prove an improbable false narrative, the KSA and US arm al-Nusra or the Islamic State.
I understand why Assad, Iran and Putin have hammered at this narrative from the beginning of the conflict , one enemy is easier to propagandize about than many diverse groups but understanding the broad implications of this conflict requires investigating and separating the various factions not trying to lump them into one homogenized pot.
The Army of Conquest is a flag of convenience that many separate groups operate under, share intelligence and may have a joint operations room but, from what reports I have read, operate as discreet units even in battle. Al-Nusra has taken some supplies from other groups yet it has never shown the need to acquire arms from the KSA or the US, the reason it is so effective is that it was already well armed with a secure supply line and trained before leading the Army of Conquest in the final stage of this war.
I don’t think anyone has reported that al-Nusra fighters have used TOW missiles, the obvious indicator of them directly getting KSA arms, but even if they did it is circumstantial not probative evidence.
The Brit/Saudi weapons deal only exists with US approval.
This is not even a speculation, it’s how it rolls.
The US and its partners are acting totally outside international law-funneling mercenaries and weapons inside Syria to destroy the imstitutional structure of Syria.
That Glenn has been so unfocused and vauge about the known knows of this situation developing in Syria is a form of jackal journalism.
This is personal, inasmuch as I have Christian refugee friends from Syria in the US–as well as in the country.
The fact that The Intercept readers can’t understand what the US and its Al Queda mercenaries have been doing in Syria for over two years is a function of being derilict in developing pertinent and outstanding journalism.
Corporate US media and the liberal entertainment sources, Mahr, Cobertt, don’t produce journalism–its state propaganda.
The more you read, the more none of this makes sense.
Jackal Journalism.
Don’t think you will be in the know with Democracy Now!–they were turned into zombies on Syria since they helped sell the Libya invasion years ago.
Weapons and jihadists are tools that determine US and client state goals in the region.
The empire is beyond rouge at this point–they can’t get their script coordinated.
Greenwald’s assessment of the ethics of this Syrian conflict, by what he says in this article indicates to me that he feels that he can shoot straight in developing a cogent narrative.
Jeremy Scahill a couple of years ago played a prominent role in attacking Mother Agnes, Syriam nun that was presenting information that called into question the Syrian government’s supposed “guilt” in dispersing chemical gas to murder citizens.
Why would Scahill do this!
Stay tuned–because, on behalf of my Syrian friends fight off the US sponsored terrorist jackals, I am going to pry an answer from the man.
Scahill needs to finally give an explanation for his strong arm tactics to silence Mother Agnes.
My mom was a staunch Catholic–if she was here she would ask that Scahill explain his squalid and disrespectful behavior.
But I don’t expect zombies to even muster the curiosity to research further.
To the non-zombified, do as thy wilt.
It’s not “guilt by imprecise rhetoric” — Greenwald was pointing out several symptomatic signs of the underlying non-neutral protection of the Saudis. While the signs may be symptomatic, they still serve as accumulative evidence illustrating the issue at the very root here, as protection of powerful allies is the opposite of what good journalism should be. Calling the BBC an “easy target” in this ignores how it’s actually seen by many people around the world: an authoritative, proper journalistic organization. An easy target would be tabloids.
I’m not defending the BBC or denying that they are biased, I just think the Army of Conquest/ Free Syrian Army/al-Nusra conflation and confusion is a tedious way to gather evidence for the, KSA/US are arming terrorists meme.
This method makes assumptions and jumps to conclusions that are not supported with actual facts or evidence. The original Saudi statement about arming factions in the AOC was not that controversial, IMO and altering the Syrian statement to specify who in the AOC is receiving arms is hardly whitewashing. The only reason for this clarification seems to be the fixation many people seem to have on the Syrian nationalist al-Nusra.
Glenn does acknowledge the rebels right to resist Assad and seek arms but the fact that they have found it necessary to ally themselves with al-Nusra , over the objections and threats of the US and the KSA, just shows they are not proxies of foreign powers and will follow their own agendas.
When Glenn states ‘it’s not a stretch’ the whole post begins to swirl down the rabbit-hole with tinfoil hat assumptions about 9/11 and the House of Saud and connections that were severed over twenty years ago or in the case of the US never existed.
A salient connection that Greewald fails to make a central point of this article, in my estimation, is how many war items have the Saudis been purchasing?
Where do the Saudis disperse these weapons?
Does the US have knowledge of where these weapons are being used? For what goals are these weapons used?
As the Saudis are a client state, and the UK like to be considered junior partners in the US empire–would it not be likely that the US has full knowledge of these weapon transfers and their purpose? (I know, I am venturing into conspiracy theory here ????).
So if I were Greenwald’s editor I would send him back to his computer with the instruction to make this article pertinent, with the goal of exposing a huge story that we develop further: the possibility that the US has become so brazen and unhinged that it is also managing the dreaded ISIL in Syria and Iraq.
Given the US regime’s erratic behavior, being totally outclassed and bested by the evil Putin ????, I would wager a goodly sum that my hunch will bear fruit on investigative investment.
(Note to self: have Scahill on the ground and embedded with ISIL toward this part of the story. His beard and a week at a tanning salon with hive him cred. He can learn some sign language in Arabic and feign to be mute)
If you had watched the BBC-CNN-Sky News drum beats to war during the bombing of Belgrade for 84 days to cede Bosnia and Kosovo to the Caliphate and the perrpetuation of War crimes in Iraq by Tweedle Bush, Tweedle Blair and their cohorts and cronies, you would have discovered, as I did, that the BBC has no objectivity or independence whatsoever. It is an arm of the British Government which is a US poodle. The US has been a hired gun of the Sunni Caliphate through every Presdient starting with Richard Nixon.
the link given by Greenwald is to a bullshit guardian propaganda article.
Glenn Greenwald is part of the information war against Russia, he is a propagandist spreading rumors without evidence and is now part of the mass media.
https://www.rt.com/news/319907-us-syria-unpredictable-consequences/
No, that’s stifling bullshit. Russia is murdering innocent human beings. That’s what bombs do. That’s all they do. When in Rome.
National sovereignty. Is it a thing? Glenn doesn’t want to say. He’s apolitical on the subject. On the Intercept, it’s not a thing. It’s not news. And that’s the news.
Actually, Greenwald is part of the US propaganda apparatus, his own comments and framing of what he and his cohorts want the public to internalize is evident in this article.
This idea that Greenwald is “apolitical” on Syria is totally impossible.
That you would even venture such a notion is evidence that you have surrendered any critical thinking about how ideology functions in human communication.
Here is what tipped me off about Greenwald’s Intercept: Jeremy Scahill.
This guy went into a very apoplectic conniption fit when he went on a vendetta against Mother Agnes, a Syrian nun that was scheduled to present information at a stop the war rally in London.
The information this nun was presenting threatened the US governments major propagand meme that was rationale for invading and destroying the Syrian government.
The propaganda lie that the US NATO jackals were promoting, the the Syria government were using chemical weapons on its own people was a total fabrication.
Why would Scahill be so vociferous and go to great lengths to not allow Mother Agnes to present.
My hunch is Scahill, as well as Amy Goodman with Democracy Now! Function as US propagand adjuncts.
S
Scahill is promoted as a media star in the corporate propagand war against the US citizenry.
The Intercept’s focus on the US involvement and its crimes with respect to Syria is extremely blurry, and this functions to confuse.
But The confusion has become to the point of delusion–this you have Greenwald trying to project the notion of being ‘apolitical’–when, all that aren’t zombie victims of US propaganda memes know that this is absurd.
With this one essay Greenwald took off his mask.
Now Mr. Scahill has some answering to do–why did you jump into disaster control mode to stop Mother Agnes from presenting?
Despite many people asking for years now, Scahill refuses to clear this up.
He will not-becaus the truth is he works in tamd with US intelligence services.
This notion that he is allowed on myriad pro-US propagand corporate media regularly, and that he is taking on the empire with verve and courage is a total scam.
You people that can’t see the support for the US and its cretin Gulf monarchies is totally immoral and against international law have been zombified.
I call what Goodman, Scahill and Greenwald do Jackal Joirnalism.
Hint: research Scahill’s recent body of work having to do with the Syrian sarin propaganda.
Do you people consider The Intercept’s focus on Ukraine, Libya, and, now, especially Syria–do you consider the reporting competent and adequAfely edifying?
If you do–you could be a zombie.
Only zombies support what the US are doing with respect to Syria ethical, helpful for humankind, or legal.
Jackal Journalism is effective.
Please, do provide criticism with any points I have presented.
Otherwise, you are hiding behind anonymity to sling feces–helping gang up on anyone that doesn’t adhere to your group think.
My criticisms of Greenwald’s abysmal memes that he dissiminates add to confusion–that is the goal of progressive jackal journalism.
Follow the money-and you will see there is a connection to the quality and usefulness of information.
This is axiomatic for most people in the world–but the US neocolonial mind is deluded and addled.
No I agree with you there. I only use that term with derision. Glenn and his staff are employing the “view from nowhere” re Syria/Ulraine, pretending there is no point to the question of sovereignty because he doesn’t have a point of view on sovereignty. It’s strategically obtuse, and completely political.
Thank you for that, Benjamin.
I have formed friendship with people in Damascus. As well, I have been honored to become acquainted with Syrian Christian refugees here in the US.
If you review my comments on what Jeremy Scahill has engaged to suppress information that exculpatory of the Syrian government in relation to the sarin gas slaughter, I would appreciate it.
Scahill has avoided clarifying his rationale.
Toward Greenwald’s explanation of his statements about the Syrian situation in this article, his apparent non-clarity clarification– well, I don’t believe he will live this down.
Some of us here really do honor non-jackal journalism–the type that would mobilize the citizenry to not allow another nation to be rolled over.
But, on your point–Chomsky has offered up some creepy notions of sovereignty not being foundational. As he fancies himself some type of non-postmodern rationalist, but a specie of anarchist, this could be the root of such absurdity.
Greenwald’s ploy is to take everyone’s eye off the vociferous campaign of villainy on the part of the US and its adjunct jackal states in the gulf.
His readers are rendered perpetually confused by what is unfolding.
The more I research this situation, going back to Libya the more I am disabused and f-ing pissed at the convolution of this Syria story.
Of course, when the USA bombs hspitals, it is to save the people from themselves.
Evangelical like.
BBC is long gone. I haven’t clicked their site almost since the start of the Syria war.
Regarding what the Saudis are doing, there are three other considerations:
– This story about supplying the rebels is floated a lot these days. It can be an effort to justify past weapons deliveries, now that Putin came calling and will get to the bottom of it.
– It can also be a veiled threat to Russia, saying: “we’ll make this very nasty for you.” That attitude is exactly the Saudi way.
– An interesting other aspect is these rumors they are floating that “some unidentified Saudi prince is trying to overthrow King Salman.” I wouldn’t be surprised if that rumor is simply an effort to gain time. It’s perfectly allowable in their culture until they achieve their true ends -it’s called “taqiyya”. They are again pushing that rumor through the English media. The fact is they are terrified.
The BBC believes in the “uncertainty principle”, I.e. once you inconveniently see it and point it out it disappears (from its website). This is also unknown as the Wittgensteinian and Derridean postulate of absolute relativity, only relativity is ultimately true. Caveat lector et auditor, for the only safe and sane “truth” is that which is an establish[ed](ment) convention.
Oh boy a newspaper is wrong. From the country that gave us saint Tony Blair. Glenn really wants to makes us sick. The Intercept deserves price for badest news newspaper, nobody beats them in bad news. I many times get knocked down, but get up again -and ain’t it funny- as I was worried about privacy now ready for WW3, if that really has to be.
“Fair and balanced” might be more appropriate.
Saudis walk in Obama’s footsteps in Yemen,
https://news.vice.com/article/exclusive-saudi-arabia-admits-bombing-msf-hospital-in-yemen-but-faults-msf
The BBC has become a joke since 2010. Since the recent election it has descended further to ‘sick joke’. It has never been ‘impartial’ it has always been ‘pro establishment’, but it indulged in some disgraceful pro govt propaganda during the Thatcher era (editing of newsreels to show miners attacking the police – it was later proved beyond doubt events had been reversed) but under Cameron it has shrugged off all pretence of being unbiased and is whole hog Tory supporting.
As the Saudis and Israel buy rather a lot of weapons off the UK, and as China promises to invest money in our former bastion of fair play and democracy, sucking up to these unpleasant regimes has become par for the course with the Beeb. During the recent Chinese visit they surpassed themselves with articles so loaded with bias it would make a nun blush…
…there was however, not much talk of those horrid ‘Human Rights’ issues though. Even when they did, it was with a ‘balanced view’. Note: a former Tiananmun Square survivor was arrested for protesting against the visit and his house raided. That didn’t rate as a ‘news item’.
There is no free press or media in the UK. It is either owned by Murdoch, or some other overseas tax exile with a vested interest in maintaining the current status quo, or run by staff who were either in the Tory party or openly support it.
Lovely!
Hey Glenn if the shoe fits
” Western media’s “outrageous accusations” that the Russian Air Force has allegedly bombed hospitals in Syria”
https://www.rt.com/news/319859-russia-nato-civilians-syria/
from the link above
You provide a link to the bullshit guardian who wrote a story without collaborating evidence.
Talk about the BBC propaganda all you like, you just shot yourself in the foot.
On the subject of dishonesty and bias, here’s another example of the BBC accepting the Saudi line and printing it unchallenged:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34635206
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_lie
I understand now why Glenn prefers the lives of dogs and the homeless folk who care for them. Seems getting a home leads to tearing down another’s just to make certain no one sleeps at night. Sleeplessness leads to more paranoia and hostility, so I’d rather take a nap with a dog who remains friends even if you can’t offer it anything to eat. Mean people suck the life out of living.
Albert Pikes prediction is coming to fruition.
Albert Pikes prophecy seems to coming to fruition.
How do we recognize a fake journalist?
“But a recent article, which it was forced to change, illustrates the lengths to which the British state-funded media outlet will go to protect one of the U.K. government’s closest allies, Saudi Arabia…”
Greenwald 26 Oct, 15
“Hostile BBC Interview of a Saudi Loyalist Shows Prime Journalistic Duty…” “This interview was a master class..” Greenwald 15 Sep, 15
You can block me now Greenwald. That is your best defense, isn’t it?
He linked to that article in the passage that reads:
“…it is the rare exception when the BBC reports adversarially on the Saudis…”
Sweet mastalay
I’m laughing quite hard at you for claiming that I overlooked/suppressed/concealed an article that, as Sense pointed out, I actually cited and acknowledged IN THIS VERY ARTICLE.
You came here acting as though you had found some fatal, hidden weapon – when, in fact, I linked to it and wrote about right in the article to which you’re responding.
The ‘comment’ button is now functional. huzzah !
Well, their common forms of government cements their ability to understand each other. (Monarchy)
“So originally, the BBC stated that the ‘Saudi official’ announced that the regime was arming the Army of Conquest. Once it was brought to the BBC’s attention that the Army of Conquest includes the al Qaeda affiliate Nusra Front — a direct contradiction of the Saudi official’s other claim that the Saudis are not arming Nusra — the BBC literally changed the Saudi official’s own statement, whitewashed it, to eliminate his admission that they were arming Army of Conquest. Instead, the BBC now states that the Saudis are arming ‘the Free Syrian Army and other small rebel groups’.”
And the Russians, who have been criticized in U.S. media outlets for targeting groups opposed to Assad, have asked the U.S. to disclose the whereabouts of the FSA so they can support them too, but the U.S. hasn’t replied. It appears they have been located, however: So who were the state supporters? Egypt when Morsi was president? NATO, which includes the Turks, and …
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrEPadG0pQk
Allow me to add, there is a connection between events in Libya and the Syrian civil war. And then there was the death of the U.S. ambassador to Libya. I read recently that the entire military weapons arsenal of the Libyan government, which was overthrown by Cameron and Obama, all without congressional authorization, may have been funneled to Islamist fighters in Syria. I guess we won’t be hearing from the U.S. ambassador about this though. From one article (WSJ): “The utter failure of Western policy in both Libya and Syria has to be seen for what it is: not just a political blunder but a humanitarian crime.” (The Russian ambassador has said recently that it has been proved beyond a reasonable doubt that Assad is not the one who used chemical weapons. So what is the real evidence?) The Syrian civil war has produced well over 5 million displaced persons and over 250,000 deaths. “In May last year [2012], Senator Rand Paul was one of the first to speculate … weapons being trafficked to terrorists in Syria as part of the United States’ proxy war against the Assad regime.” (GlobalResearch.) The Obama administration admitted in congressional testimony that it had funneled over 600 tons of weapons to Islamist fighters in Syria, claiming that this wasn’t illegal arms trafficking by citing a ten year old congressional authorization given to the Bush administration for the war in Afghanistan.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ko5W_1Y47O8
Reid, and this info points up my disappointment with many people that are propped up as journalists.
There are memes they swallow without much skepticism or investigation.
The Syrian chemical weapons barrage to cast blame is an example.
These demonization memes are regurgitated and build.
Glenn’s journalism and commentary suffers from this hugely as well.
Presenting this Syrian situation as though intelligent people can simply differ on this issue, in this context is what I call jackal journalism.
When one contributes to gross distortion and the people of Syria and Libya are murdered by US supported jihadist mercenaries, then one shares a degree of responsibility.
This applies to all of us.
Being credulous and regurgitating state-corporate memes demonstrates weakness and fear.
It is difficult to declare that the government is engaging in disinformation when it has been developed as group-think.
There is a huge body of evidence that shows that the left-progressive media and their luminaries project memes that function within the goals of the imperialist state.
Jackal journalism on the left is more subtle than overt.
Hi, is it possible that i translate this article into french and use it?
Thanks a lot.
Hi sauvé.
Here is a link to The Intercept’s Terms of Use.
https://theintercept.com/terms-use
This is what it has to say with respect to re-use of article material:
I hope this is helpful to you.
The BBC is Zionist controlled.If they are protecting the Saudis,its at Israeli bidding,and should raise alarm bells as if they are friends now,after 9-11,they were friends before.Very simple logic.
Last time I checked, a bunch of pedos were running their show.
this is funny, the US sends a war ship to cruise around Chinese Islands off the Chinese coast, about as far from America as you can get because:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/28/world/asia/south-china-sea-uss-lassen-spratly-islands.html?_r=0
For some irrational reason, the NYT reports, the Chinese perceive the US warship being sent to the Chinese islands, and the US statement about moving the issue to the military realm, as a provocation.
I can understand the US concern. Imagine the horror if the US had offshore bases. And not only that, the Chinese might attack Pearl Harbour again, or make Los Angeles a Chinese colony and force opium upon them. Or China might repeat the “rape of San Diego” the incident where invading Chinese armies massacred Americans.
Thank you for this article. The world needs to know that the vast majority of rebels in Syria are Salafi radicals obsessed with their fanatic beliefs and martyrdom. The pose a much greater threat than the current government in Syria not only to Syria and the region but the World. And their source is Saudi Wahhabism.
This is funny, Obama uses unwitting charity workers in Korea, to run a spy operation, putting all future NGO’s, volunteers, charity workers at risk of being seen as spies, risking their arrest, and preventing them from helping the people they want to help….and Jake Tapper, in his first question to Matthew Cole is…”Does reporting this story put anyone at risk?”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ezBCalHPQk
*revision
I personally don’t view the presence of Ahmed Abdel Hadi Chalabi as a convincing argument against supporting the Iraqi National Congress (INC). It’s understandable that people fighting against an oppressive regime — one backed by powerful foreign factions — will align with anyone willing and capable of fighting with them.
A We Will Be Greeted With Candy And Flowers Production
As much as I agree with Glenn on most things… I have to confess I agree with your counterpoint on that particular statement.
I’m not going to invest any energy defending Assad but theses terrorists he’s fighting — and we’ve seen unequivocally that the term really fits them in this case — are an order of magnitude worse. And the only reason they exist is to ruin the Muslim world for Western business interests.
It looks like the attack on the Medecins Sans Frontieres hospital in Afghanistan was not a one-off. How’s that US “independent investigation” coming along?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/yemen/11957109/Yemen-hospital-hit-by-Saudi-led-air-strikes-says-MSF.html
Ah, I wasn’t aware of the “It’s ok to blow up functioning hospitals that are under Taliban control” exception. I’ll file that with the “It’s ok to bomb Al Jazeera TV offices that say bad things about Bush and Blair”
http://bigstory.ap.org/a39810b7161d42fcb0abe36576d26730
J K Rowling is sticking to her “cultural bridges” to nowhere:
http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1snnrq7
She’s never heard of South Africa? Perhaps it doesn’t exist in the wizarding world.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/26/cultural-bridges-with-israel-have-failed
Her riches were built by Zionists,ther published her books,and produced her movies.She owes them everything,especially ignoring her plagiarism of Tolkien.
I thought the same.
https://www.rt.com/news/319797-syria-depopulation-refugees-assange/
Lets see the Guardian print that.
But according to them, its Assad and Russians fault.
Glenn writes an article on propaganda and links to the guardian to back his ridiculous speculation?
Forrest for the trees.
MC Jammer`
But what about those chlorine ‘thing a ma jiggers’?!?!
Speaking of ‘a forest’..
Werchter Festival – July ’81
The Cure
https://youtu.be/SXgN-7A1MXM
A Fuk’ Robert Palmer Production
PS.. Kudos to you and yours.
Yet another masterpiece.
A front-man for the Saudi royals is more likely to tell the truth than a democratic politician for obvious reasons. BBC editors got too comfortable in that regard — they figured they could trust the “government official” to lie without their intervention. Stupid.
I have also been wondering if Mr. Greenwald saw all of the obvious U.S. and friends arming and supporting AQ and ISIS. Something about this article made me feel less insane for trusting my lying eyes.
“I personally don’t view the presence of al Qaeda “affiliated” fighters as a convincing argument against supporting Syrian rebels. It’s understandable that people fighting against an oppressive regime — one backed by powerful foreign factions — will align with anyone willing and capable of fighting with them. Moreover, the long-standing U.S./U.K. template of branding anyone they fight and kill as “terrorists” or “al Qaeda” is no more persuasive or noble when used in Syria by Assad and the Russians, particularly when used to obscure civilian casualties. And regarding the anti-Assad forces as monolithically composed of religious extremists ignores the anti-tyranny sentiment among ordinary Syrians motivating much of the anti-regime protests, with its genesis in the Arab Spring.”
Glenn: If there is a potentially rational position
toward this chaotic Syrian disaster you expressed it.
Thank you…jt
The bbc_scumbags are appointed by the queen; all with the facade its been ran for the benefit of the people of the uk. The amount that ‘presenters & entertainers’ get paid too distract the populous from real issues is stupifying. Much like the pay of top footballers, a years average wages per week to those dead-head kicking clowns. The system is broken & even with devasting knowledge of how corrupt the uk has become & how little corporations & elite pay tax. People seem to be dulled down so much with toxic fluoridation water that they are incapable or just inept at raising a spirited fist of dissent. The bbc’s last great reporting was on 9/11 or more commonly september the 11th 2001; where they tried to follow the US-media in reporting events. And actually informed the british/worldwide public the building 7 (the 3rd building to follow from ‘not’ been hit by a plane) was raised to the ground. The actually reporter had the 47-story building shown standing in shot. And under an hour later it was pulled..
Fuck the MSM and turn off your tele-visual-programming unit. Don’t let the fake negativity or real false-flag events muddy you’re mind!
Fantastic satire!
Thank you for all your hard work of the last few decades Glenn, I really appreciate you shedding light on all of these atrocities.
The BBC isn’t state funded. It’s funded directly by citizens through a license fee. The current government hate it because they think it’s too left wing. But apart from that…
Err… That’s what state-funded means. The current government try to make it seem legitimate by saying it’s too left wing, but that really is quite a joke.
Errr.. no it doesn’t. State funded for most people would i suspect mean the current government pays and thus very definitely has a say on content. If you think that is how the BBC is officially run and funded you are incorrect.
Once again, the elephant in the newsroom is 9/11–open the genie’s 9/11 lid and the septic tank goes………………………………………………………………………………..
Further evidence, if it were needed, that the BBC is a fully paid up member of the British Establishment
Thanks for writing on this Glenn.
I remember when the BBC was the most trusted source of news (I’m talking 25 years ago). There was a reason for it. When there was political turmoil locally, nobody would believe the evening news, as it was State owned media. People would wait around for the news from the BBC or even Voice of America radio, to see if there was any discrepancy between the local news and what the BBC said. And if the BBC said something, that was believed as truth.
This was really a powerful position for the BBC to be in. It’s unfortunate that they’re ruining their reputation. They’ve probably been doing it for some time now.
BBC is doing nothing wrong. All news producing organizations have a sacred duty to be patriotic and produce only that kind of information that is beneficial for the country or the party for whom they operate. Even the newspapers that ISIS publishes or the Syrian Times follow this principle. So we can’t really blame BBC or CNN or Fox News for doing what they are supposed to do. If and when the ISIS News or Syrian Times become more truthful we can take BBC to task. Till then it’s better to ignore them altogether.
Is this guy ignorant, serious, a shill, or just another troll?
You can safely drop the “or” and replace it with “and”.
Any particular reason why the bar of ethical reporting for “BBC” should be any higher than that of “ISIS News”?
Your assumption of a superior pedestal is inconsistent with the fact that your taxes have funded everything that you appear to abhor. At least I am honest in appreciating facts as they are.
Do you come from a long line off subservient ass lickers? Just asking.
Prove to me you don’t, and then come back and ask me this question.
Mr. Greenwald
“………The regime with the greatest plausible proximity to the 9/11 attack – Saudi Arabia – is the closest U.S. ally in the region next to Israel…….It’s not a stretch to say that the faction that provides the greatest material support to Al Qaeda at this point is the U.S. and its closest allies. That is true even as Al Qaeda continues to be paraded around as the prime need for the ongoing war……”
First of all, you have not only provided zero evidence for the involvement of the Saudi government in 911, you have not even provided a motive for their involvement. These same conspiracy theories surround Israel and 911 as well. I am no supporter of the Saudi monarchy, but Graham provided no evidence of the government of Saudi Arabia’s involvement in 911 either. What would the Saudi regime hope to achieve? The US has provided security, weapons and billions in fuel consumption to the Saudi dictatorship – making the Monarchy filthy rich while upgrading the standard of living of Arabs living in Saudi Arabia. It would be as if you decided to murder Pierre Omidyar. This doesn’t mean that some members of the royal family (and there are thousands) didn’t provide some funding to al-Qaeda. However, that’ doesn’t necessarily implicate the government of Saudi Arabia. After all Bin Laden was a member of the royal family as well.
On top of that, the Saudi regime is at odds with al-Qaeda. It was the Saudi family which allowed the US military to be stationed in Saudi Arabia which clearly upset Bin Laden. Al-Qaeda would support the overthrow of the Monarchy.
In addition, your source (“done the same”) clearly indicates that the US had NO intention of arming al-Qaeda in Syria:
“…..U.S.-trained rebels in Syria handed over American-supplied vehicles and ammunition to an al-Qaeda linked group, the Pentagon said Friday in the latest blow to a program plagued by problems since its inception……”
So to clarify: inadvertently armed al-Qaeda. The US has never supported the arming of al-Qaeda in Syria – or Libya. You have phrased the statement in a way that the typical idiot that frequents this site will take the quote out of context.
And the beat goes on. . .
Thanks Bill. Good to hear from you
@ Craig
Do you have some aversion to learning how to blockquote? Or do you enjoy coming off like a technologically illiterate boob in addition to your reputation around here for general anti-intellectual tediousness?
http://html5doctor.com/blockquote-q-cite/
Just click on the link and scroll down a little bit to the part that shows how to blockquote “Look ma, no paragraph tags!”
And for Gawd’s sake learn how to use ellipsis properly. Check any style manual and it goes like this ” . . . ” (three dots with a space in between or four dots if it includes the ending period–or three dots with end punctuation of the omitted material ” . . . ?”
What it demonstrates is that you have zero respect for your fellow commenters (regardless of whether you agree with them substantively or not) and could care less if anyone reads what you write.
I think you have no authority or material to present to anyone that backs up the idea that the US and its operatives have ‘never’ supported al Queda.
If memory serves, in while ago General Patreas was pitching the idea to the US Congress that the Government should form alliance with al Queda.
The years of disinformation and confused narratives that are projected at the US public, so as to maintain the idea that the nation is exceptional and indispensable has mesmerized the polity, a distinct dementia and senescence has developed pall over the land–like a soma type mist that renders even what were the most critical thinkers to disseminating state-propaganda memes.
The way the US and its media adjuncts roll over people and destroy states has developed in a recognizable pattern.
How even the most ardent critics of the empire are rendered into adjuncts of the machine they formerly maligned and menaced–well, this is the topic that deserves discussion.
“Jackal Journalism” creates hipster zombies–even if they have read Chomsky.
Don’t be a victim, people.
Research this situation in Syria–because you will not likely find much cogent and timely information in these environs.
And I doubt Greenwald et al will have any Road to Damascus epiphanies that can alter the sad course of billionaire generated media, like The Intercept.
We shall see.
Steven Hunt
“………The years of disinformation and confused narratives that are projected at the US public, so as to maintain the idea that the nation is exceptional and indispensable has mesmerized the polity, a distinct dementia and senescence has developed pall over the land–like a soma type mist that renders even what were the most critical thinkers to disseminating state-propaganda memes……”
That tells me a good deal about your politics, but your opinion is meaningless. I really could care less what you think about Americans.
“…….If memory serves, in while ago General Patreas was pitching the idea to the US Congress that the Government should form alliance with al Queda…..”
If it serves you right, then post a link or a quote – or else it doesn’t serve you (or me).
“…….I think you have no authority or material to present to anyone that backs up the idea that the US and its operatives have ‘never’ supported al Queda…..”
I said never supported al-Qaeda in Syria or Libya (to get what I said clarified). The US has openly stated they don’t arm, fund or support al-Qaeda or ISIS in Syria, Libya or Iraq. It’s up to you to disprove that. Either shit or get off of the pot, OK?
Craig , I get that the US openly says that it does not arm or fund these groups—but that doesn’t stop US client states from doing so.
Indeed, you lack of skepticism and facial credulity is among the most dangerous, yet quaint, aspects of the individual psyche here in the US–as long as you aren’t the people being terrorized by moderate fanatics funded by our Saudi buddies.
Your lack of skepticism and willingness to regurgitate state denial of responsibility, plausible deniability, a recognizable pattern in the US.
Must be connected with consuming those freedom fries.
Steven
“……Craig , I get that the US openly says that it does not arm or fund these groups—but that doesn’t stop US client states from doing so…..”
The US and the Saudis disagree on a host of issues. The US cannot control the foreign policy of Saudi Arabia which clearly sees the Iranians as a big threat to their own regional aspirations. The US is not responsible for the foreign policy of the Saudis – plain and simple. The Saudis are just like a lot of Islamic states in the greater Middle East – willing to kill as many Muslims as it takes to spread their influence and/or gain power.
Says the really dumb guy who doesn’t understand exactly how many billions of dollars America provides Saudi Arabia with in arms sales without which Saudi Arabia couldn’t execute its “foreign policy”. For example in 2010 alone the US approved the largest arms sale in American history of $60.5 billion to the Saudis.
http://jcpa.org/article/arms-for-the-king-and-his-family-the-u-s-arms-sale-to-saudi-arabia/
Or how intertwined historically Saudi Arabia and the US foreign policy is, which is why America’s leaders are always referring to Saudi Arabia as one of America’s most vital, long-standing and closest allies in the region other than Israel.
http://yale64.org/news/kaiser.htm#Oil_for_Security
You really should educate yourself before you catapult your meaningless opinions here day in and day out, backed by nothing but your pathetic conjecture, and all the while making you look like the ideologically brainwashed technologically illiterate boob you appear to be.
Generally when you sell arms to someone they give you money, not the other way round.
Unless it is Israel … you also get a tax deduction for sending money to family in Israel.
Israel is the gift that keeps on giving itself our money.
We don’t control the Saudi’s foreign policy any more than Israel controls ours. In fact, the US and Saudi Arabia disagree on a host of issues including the invasion of Iraq, the Saudi bombing of the Houthis (while the US fights al-Qaeda in Yemen); the policies of the US toward Egypt directly after the overthrow of the MB. We might be morally wrong for supplying weapons to the Saudis, but they determine their policies in their best interests. The US certainly doesn’t agree with how the Saudis are supporting the jihadists in Syria and Iraq. When it comes to undermining Iranian regional influence, they will develop policies in their best interests – in Iraq, Syria and Yemen in addition to sending troops to Bahrain to put down a rebellion at their doorstep.
It’s not rocket science “rr”. Try reading?
From The Daily Beast, August this year: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/08/31/petraeus-use-al-qaeda-fighters-to-beat-isis.html
Thanks Padraig. According to your source:
“……..The heart of the idea stems from Petraeus’s experience in Iraq in 2007, when as part of a broader strategy to defeat an Islamist insurgency the U.S. persuaded Sunni militias to stop fighting with al Qaeda and to work with the American military. The tactic worked, at least temporarily. But al Qaeda in Iraq was later reborn as ISIS, and has become the sworn enemy of its parent organization. Now, Petraeus is returning to his old play, advocating a strategy of co-opting rank-and-file members of al Nusra, particularly those who don’t necessarily share all of core al Qaeda’s Islamist philosophy……”
In Iraq, the US convinced Sunni militia to fight al-Qaeda. The US served as a liaison between Sunni and Shia to ensure the Shia government remained inclusive with Kurdish and Sunni participation. When the US was kicked out of Iraq, the Sunnis were alienated by the Maliki government leading to the rise of ISIS (formerly al-Qaeda). So I can see where Petraeus is coming from, although I might disagree with the strategy in this case. Still, there is no evidence that the US carried out this strategy, or in fact, that this might have worked(?).
@ Craig
Says the technologically illiterate boob who doesn’t know how to directly link to support for anything he claims, doesn’t know how to blockquote and doesn’t have a firm grasp on simple English language punctuation.
Says the guy who has never linked compelling proof in support of his opinions.
Says the guy who posts his unsupported opinions on nearly everything Glenn Greenwald writes, but doesn’t grasp the inherent irony in his doing so. All the while noting that another commenter’s opinion is meaningless (unless he/she is American thereby demonstrating quite conclusively precisely why much of the world sees us not as exceptional, but arrogant and ignorant of the world around them).
“However, that’ doesn’t necessarily implicate the government of Saudi Arabia. After all Bin Laden was a member of the royal family as well. ”
So let me get this straight. Saudi Arabia is a monarchy, but the attitudes of members of its royal family don’t influence what it does in secret?
“Al-Qaeda would support the overthrow of the Monarchy.”
Not as long as they’re getting paid—sorry, armed and supplied—to hang out in Syria and Iraq, they wouldn’t. Yes, the monarchy is very cautious about al Qaeda inside its own borders. But rebels are easier to watch when they’re driving tanks.
“So to clarify: inadvertently armed al-Qaeda. ”
Since when is incompetence an excuse?
“…….So let me get this straight. Saudi Arabia is a monarchy, but the attitudes of members of its royal family don’t influence what it does in secret?….”
Well, of course, it could, but that is no proof that the government (the ruling Saudi family) supported or funded al-Qaeda in the attacks of 911. I am not against finding out that they did, but you are trying to convict the Saudi government of possessing weapons of mass destruction without any real proof. Hmmmm. Where have I seen that before?
According to Wikipedia:
“……..The family is estimated to be composed of 15,000 members, but the majority of the power and wealth is possessed by a group of only about 2,000.[3][4]….”
@CraigSummers LOL, you sound like a paid “Hag” for the saudis….
Yea, it’s hard to believe I do this stuff for free. What I wouldn’t give to have a sugar daddy like Omidyar……
What is a ‘hag’? Is it dressing up obsequious, money grubbing American men in women’s garb and….
That the US has come to this point, forming allies with vicious, anti-secular fanatics.
And with Greewald, being so delicate and choosing not to pick sides.
There are times when the journalistic objectivity scam reveals the depths you have fallen to be on tv and be lauded my the same set of chump liberals that stumble over themselves to put a cover on the naked delusion that has allowed the US gang-tape of Syria to come this far.
The lack of coverage of Syria and Ukraine comes from not having the courage to expose the depravity of the Obama administration.
But, my disgust comes from the murder and terror that the US and its jackals have unleaded.
Sorry–the lot of you that ignore or play these crimes down.
It is not a lack of courage,the dearth of reportage from said,its a lack of transparency,they want US in the mushroom dark,the Zionists who control our discourse.
Syria belongs to Syrians,of whom Assad is one,while the headchoppers and allies are not.Assads wickedness(?) is delineated by serial liars,believe nothing they say.
“……It is not a lack of courage,the dearth of reportage from said,its a lack of transparency,they want US in the mushroom dark,the Zionists who control our discourse……”
You don’t mind if I interpret what you mean do you.
“……It is not a lack of courage,the dearth of reportage from said,its a lack of transparency,they want US in the mushroom dark,the [Jews] who control our discourse….”
Isn’t that a whole bunch better?
Newsflash:
“Saudi Arabia is said to be the world’s largest source of funds and promoter of Salafist jihadism, which forms the ideological basis of terrorist groups such as al-Qaeda, Taliban, ISIS and others. Donors in Saudi Arabia constitute the most significant source of funding to Sunni terrorist groups worldwide, according to Hillary Clinton. According to a secret December 2009 paper signed by the US secretary of state, “Saudi Arabia remains a critical financial support base for al-Qaida, the Taliban, LeT and other terrorist groups.”” (wikipedia, State-sponsored_terrorism)
Where does this Zionist love for Saudi Arabia come from?
As wiley Yahoo said;9-11 was very good for us.
Yes,the love embrace between the Saudis and Israelis is naked with new found passion.
Most peculiar,one might say,but very interesting.
Saudi Arabia is the worst human rights violator on Earth, but since that backward, morally corrupted royal family/government is a friend of UK and US, whatever they do is okay. The house of Saud has been murdering, rapping, and human trafficking for years, and the west turns blind eye to it.
@ Boby
The House of Saud raps? Who knew. I thought they were a little uptight to get down with rapping given they don’t let their womenfolk drive cars. But hey maybe the times they are a changin’ in the House of Saud.
Yes! Saudi Arabia is a totally corrupt, family-run amoral criminal enterprise. Its 2000 princes hold all of the significant offices in the country.
No way they outclass Israel in that department,human rights violators.
jeez.
And why do the Saudis get away with it?Because the Ziomedia lets them.bada bing bada boom.Why do the israelis get away with it?bada bing…..
@ Glenn Greenwald
Speaking of not so small things–not sure if you saw this:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/unit-that-called-in-kunduz-airstrike-knew-hospital-was-functioning-believed-it-was-overrun-by-taliban_562e6936e4b00aa54a4a8844
Now granted this report is by Ken Dilanian, previously with LA Times and now with AP, and was one of those reporters that was vetting his stuff with the CIA as reported by The Intercept. But who knows maybe the guy is trying to rehabilitate his professional reputation by doing some adversarial investigative reporting. Don’t know–particularly when you are dealing with a guy (nominal journalist) that has ties to the CIA. But I have zero faith that Maj. Gen. William B. Hickman’s report will come to any other conclusion that this was all just some “horrible mistake” in the “fog of war” absent a truly independent investigation by representatives of some organization that can’t be leveraged, infiltrated, bullied or bribed by the US or its allies.
America isn’t in the business of admitting to its own war crimes and violations of international law for obvious reasons.
Oops now I see Glenn has/had already linked to it on his Twitter feed. I should have known he’d seen it before me.
It only stands to reason that the Saudis would be supporting ISIL in any way they can, within the parameters of not appearing to do so to the US and UK citizenry. Reason: The Saud family made a deal with the Wahhabists centuries ago; they view themselves as allies of the radicals among the Sunnis and enemies of all Shiites. Saudi Arabia is in conflict with Iran and wants to prevent Iranian influence from spreading, so they will naturally support anyone who appears to be opposed to Iran. Ditto the various Gulf Emirates. On the other hand, the Turks may have no love lost for the Kurds, and no love for Assad either, so their tendency as well is to support ISIL to the maximum extent possible while appearing to be opposed to them. These are the strategic alliances that the US and UK have nurtured in the Middle East! And we wonder why all our brilliantly led and conducted invasions, assassinations and other acts of terror in that region have not caused the general singing of praises of our benevolence.
For the US, it does not help that our most solid ally outside the region, the UK, is the very country that almost singlehandedly destabilized it at the end of World War I, as part of its insatiable lust for empire.
“…….Saudi Arabia is in conflict with Iran and wants to prevent Iranian influence from spreading, so they will naturally support anyone who appears to be opposed to Iran…..”
Exactly true. However, ISIS is a means to an end which is regional influence and undermining the Iranian outreach program. The monarchy understands that ISIS and al-Qaeda would overthrow them in a heartbeat given the opportunity.
So do they support ISIS or not? You can’t seem to make up your mind. Can they not support al Qaeda in Iraq but not in Saudi Arabia?
Are you really that dim, or stubborn, or well paid?
The answer is yes and no. I know that is bit much for your brain to absorb, but It’s also not really rocket science. The Saudis support jihadists when it serves their regional interests – and that means undermining the reach of Iran in Syria, Yemen and Iraq. Simple even for a simpleton.
I greatly admire the work Mr. Greenwald and his colleagues are doing and have been following the comments on this site for a long time. There are many regular commenters whom I respect. You can probably guess who they are.
I hope it is not offensive to remind people: Don’t feed the trolls.
On the subject of Jeremy Corbyn, it is shocking to see him threatened by those in power and so openly threatened. If anything happens to him, we shall know who did it and/or condoned it. I suggest that No. 10 do everything in its power to ensure the health and safety of the Leader of the Loyal Opposition, as well as his good name.
It is easy to label anyone a “troll” that points up valid criticism.
I have been disappointed by The Intercept–I was an admirer of Greewald and Democracy Now! For years.
However, two very crucial topics, Ukraine and Syria, have been almost non-existent.
As to Ukraine, Glenn Greewald approved a small piece by Masha Gessen. This person’s essays are smears, not journalism.
Research yourselves.
Finding any compelling information on what is happening in Syria is very difficult.
I have Syrian refugee friends.
What they tell me, and what I have found through research isn’t even close to the narrative that Greenwald presents in this article.
Surely, it isn’t simply laziness on Greenwald’s part–he is in charge of the editorial department, what comprises news at this organization, The Intercept.
Another item that any of you curious folks might want to investigate is why Jeremy Scahill was so vociferous and insistent that Mother Agnes, a Syrian nun, was not to be allowed time to present her information that bears on the chemical weapon attacks in Syria.
As Scahill is one of the head honchos at The Intercept, I would like for this “journalist” to explained to everyone why it was so important to not let Mother Agnes present.
for the incurious among you–carry on, hew to your nature.
We have a developing situation with US sponsored agression in Syria that will become much more violent and dire if the US regime and it ISIL supporter client states keep funneling mercenaries and weapons into Syria.
Greenwald engaged in what I call jackal journalism here, and the assumptions that undergird his opinions on the situation in Syria provides succor to a the ongoing gang-rape.
The connection of the US with ISIL is what Greenwald and his cohorts would attend to at this moment.
We all watched Iraq and Libya get mutilated–and the same dynamic is at play right now.
Jackal Journalism is disgusting
I singled out no one in my comment. The “troll” remark could apply to more than one commenter and more than one article. In my personal opinion, it does.
Also, does anyone agree with me about Jeremy Corbyn or share my concern?
Are you going to point to any evidence of whatever you’re talking about? or just call names?
So I disagree with some of your views, but I’d like to thank you for your journalism. Much more straightforward, critical, and helpful in understanding ongoing conflicts. Thank you, Mr.Greenwald.
@karl
Yes. @mikedelic hilariously dubbed this #clownwashing
https://twitter.com/mikedelic/status/655091617423036416
It’s a curious strain of American Exceptionalism, where people (often well meaning) confuse features (chaos-destabilization) as bugs in the system. It can be both conscious and unconscious.
re: Syria
linky
http://www.armedforcesjournal.com/pipeline-politics-in-syria/
@BenjaminAP
“Yes. @mikedelic hilariously dubbed this #clownwashing”
In reading your definition of “clownwashing,” I haven’t got a clue as to why you are directing it to me.
Sorry karl, that was poorly phrased, I wasn’t directing it at you but in reference to the “obtuse conflation” you were responding to. You unpacked it nicely. Clownwashing is a pithy way to sum its mechanism, imo.
Ahhh… OK. No problem.
@BenjaminAP
Exactly.
It is always wise to view international conflicts through, as you say, the lens of economics (even Karl Marx noted this in his writings). This is where the truth unfolds. I’m glad you mentioned the Russians – that is why they joined the game.
Looking at the big picture: The ONLY thing the Middle East has going for itself is oil. Nothing else. The situation is akin to the violent turf wars of drug cartels as drugs are the ONLY thing they have going. Except oil is a legal drug.
If oil were taken out of the equation, there would be no conflict anywhere in the Middle East. In fact, there would be no Middle East as we know it – just nomadic tribes with a few iPhones… The only bad actor would be Israel.
So what are we really talking about here. All this discussion about ISIS, al-Qaeda, terrorism, moderate Islamic factions, who is aligning with who … ad nauseam … is a waist of time. As long as there is a demand for oil, there will be war – all the players will want a share and will kill for it. And the US military industrial complex will supply the weapons. Get used to it.
@BenjaminAP
Thanks for the excerpts from the article entitled:
You can’t understand the conflict without talking about natural gas
By Maj. Rob Taylor
The entire article is a very worthwhile read!
http://www.armedforcesjournal.com/pipeline-politics-in-syria/
No problem. Found @cordeliers I think.
“support of the rebels” waning among supporters of the rebels
http://www.moonofalabama.org/2015/10/two-prominent-promoters-of-the-syrian-revolution-give-up.html
“I personally don’t view the presence of al Qaeda “affiliated” fighters as a convincing argument against supporting Syrian rebels.” Only because your terms are (purposefully?) ambiguous, as they don’t reference facts on the ground.
The most misleading term of all is “Moderate Rebel.”
Does that mean they are Rockefeller Republicans, or Triangulating Clintonites/Blairites of the 90s?
Yes “moderate rebel” is a fanciful and disingenuous notion. What kind of “moderate” takes up arms against his country’s government? Even less of a “moderate” would be someone from *a foreign country* who takes up arms against a government. Wouldn’t “moderates” honestly defined be against using violence and instead using the political system? Also, “McCain’s Moderates” are foreign financed and armed mercenaries who are unaffiliated with any nation-state, and I guess thereby unemcumbered by any of the international treaties that regular armies of nation-states are supposed to be governed by. I guess in Dick Cheney parlance, they are “armed enemy combatants” aren’t they? And what about the suicide bombs? It’s sad and disgusting to realize my country is a state sponor of jihad-terrorism. It’s sad to see my country responsible for starting wars against countries that have never attacked us. And it’s sad to see the places so important to ancient and modern Christendom like Antioch be besieged by U.S.-sponsored islamic soldiers. There are close connections between the orthodox church in Russia and the christians of Syria. e.g., then-president Medveded presented an award to the greek orthodox patriarch in Eastertime 2010. Contrast that with America’s efforts to tear Syria apart. The only thing standing between the remaining Christians (and other minority confessional groups) in Syria and al-quaeda is the armed forces of the Syrian Arab Republic. If John McCain, Barack Obama, HIllary Clinton, Susan Rice, Samantha Power, et al get their way, the remaining Christians of Syria will all be slaughtered by al quaeda. Russia is the only country with permission of the sovereign gov’t of the Syrian Arab Republic to be engaging in military operations. Certainly not us. For shame America. For shame Obama — your Syria policy will bury your legacy. You have created more refugees than jobs. You are stupider than Bush. You and Hillary ruined Libya. You and Hillary are ruining Syria. You persist in “regime change” in spite of recent disastrous lessons in Iraq. You will not course-correct. You do not care about the refugees you have created. Your wife goes to twitter to talk about childhood nutrition, but what about childhood nutrition in these war-zones, you nobel-peace prize phony? And now, US interventionism has resurrected the unspeakable evil of the islamic caliphate. So the answer is …. set up a no-fly zone against an enemy with no planes? I watched on 60 minutes that we’re bombing ISIS targets from Qatar, requiring two re-fuels en route, and we are using stealth planes against an enemy with no radar. Forget the fog of war or changes to plans once shots are fired — our battle plan makes no sense even on paper. No one is talking about defeating ISIS. They have been allowed to hold territory for over a year. And since we started dropping those expensive US-made bombs against ISIS, they have expanded their territory. It seems like it is up to Russia to clean up America’s mess.
Last thought in this rant, if Donald Trump gets the nomination he should select Rand Paul as VP candidate to guarantee the deep state does not assassinate the president.
With journalistic competence and a desire for honesty and compassion this Syria situation would not have come to this point.
Either you support international law and humans in Syria–or you support the US agression and terrorist gang-rape.
But many have been lulled and addled into being passive participants.
Look at the frame that Greenwald makes clear in this essay.
What about the pro Jew bias the media has. The Jews have raped & ruined the West.
Jack – ‘The Jews have raped & ruined the West”
Jack, try again, the website you are looking for is spelled “stormfront”
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/18/hate-crime-murders-website-stormfront-report
Seriously,I see no Jewish religion favoritism in the media,as they never really talk about the religion at all,or seem to practice it,but Zionism,yes,is the overriding concern of these criminals.
You need to define what “supporting Syrian rebels” means. What does that look like to you, in concrete terms? Abstract cheerleading? Material support? Violent? Non-Violent? What?
If we don’t define what “support” means, we beg the question. What does it mean to be “against the rebels”?
Glenn, is Syria’s national sovereignty illegitimate?
“It’s not a stretch”. Yeah. LOL. According to the DIA, it’s the policy of the West, Turkey and its GCC partners. This was revealed last May. The Intercept still hasn’t reported this, in any article concerning America’s ME policies.
“The major forces driving the insurgency” are foreigners that want to establish a “Salafist Principality”, as of 2012. This, according to the DIA. But you continue to reference “the rebels” as a neutral category.
The fact that you get hate mail from people who “support the rebels”, for being “against the rebels”, isn’t sufficient reason to obliquely diffuse the terms of the debate. WHAT DOES SUPPORT MEAN? This is quintessential “view from nowhere” posturing. By not defining, you are defining.
In 2012, was Russia “supporting the rebels”, when it offered a peaceful transfer of power? Was the West, Turkey, and its GCC partners “against the rebels”, when it shot it down?
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/15/west-ignored-russian-offer-in-2012-to-have-syrias-assad-step-aside?CMP=share_btn_tw
‘It Never Happened’ – US Intervention in Syria
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ian-sinclair/us-syria_b_5859930.html
This issue is Greenwald’s internalized assumptions about what has been playing out in Syria.
The US has been supporting illegal agression and terrorism.
The horrid lack of cogent journalism on the part of The Intercept has been a huge disappointment.
Now we have Greenwald’s explicit thoughts on this matter on the historical record. Sad.
Are you and Steven Humt the same commenter?
The only thing missing from Greenwald’s writing is the singularly odd fact that the US is attempting to topple the government of a nation (Syria) without UNSC approval and furthermore given no attack on us, ever, from Syria.
I cant think of a truer example of “aggression”.
Indeed, correct.
And this is the root of my concern
These are real people that will be murdered of the US and Saudis have their wretched way.
Greenwald and others play their role when they internalize and disemminate assumptions that soften the liberal/left.
Just like Iraq, Lybia.
This is jackal journalism.
Exactly.
Jackal journalism, not far from the mark.
These organization are similar to other criminal organizations. They recruit, behave, resemble and organize much like criminal gangs.
1. Like in gang culture, men are the center of attention.
2. Membership is loose and undefined but they have identifiable leaders and a structure at their core.
3. A terrorist act could be a single individual that joined that day, a small loosely knit group or a very large more formal group. One simply acts and claims the organization.
4. Gangs and terrorists are INTO violence.
5. They associate in cliques and sets – that’s what all the different groups basically are – gang cliques and sets. Here’s a discussion on the difference between cliques and sets: http://thehoodup.com/board/viewtopic.php?p=848811#.Vi6Iw7erTIU
6. An amorphous quality is produced by the looseness and fluidity between the groups and the vagueness of membership. This is VERY useful for the saudis. They can take credit or deny responsibility at will.
The saudis are the shot callers ISIS is the foot soldiers. Look at the beliefs, behavior and the fact that saudis are funding ISIS. It’s so obvious what’s happening here.
The west is being used in the ancient feud between Sunni and shia. Every where you see conflict with Muslims – and most of our current conflicts are Muslim based – you see the Sunni Shia fighting against each other.
Their bigotry for each other started in 632 after Mohammad died. The west needs to leave them alone.
Speaking of bigotry, your own anti-man bigotry is showing. And its gross.
Don’t detract from his intended message
Is this what is getting everyone’s knickers in a twist:
Let’s use the letter X
GG says: – I don’t view X as a convincing argument
GG didn’t say – There is no convincing argument
GG also didn’t say – There is a convincing argument X
So that covers the reading comprehension angle. Then there is the minor point that any reader of GG’s articles over the years would be forgiven for getting the impression that he is sceptical of humanitarian interventions.
Thank you. PLEASE do everything you can to help the handful of confused/deceitful commenters process this.
@ Glenn Greenwald
I may have been “confused”, but I think for an arguably good reason. As were some of your other long-time readers, whether a handful or not. Hope you aren’t placing those of us similarly situated as “confused” as also being “deceitful”. I think you know that wasn’t my/our intent in asking you to address that paragraph for clarity’s while conceding that some others might have questioned the paragraph for less honest purposes than simply seeking clarity.
I absolutely wasn’t including you. As I said in my response to you, I totally understood the reason for the initial confusion/uncertainty about my meaning. That was 100% valid.
I’m only referring to those (just a few commenters) who continue to persist in claiming that I was advocating arming/funding the Syrian rebels even though I’ve repeatedly said I was doing no such thing and don’t favor that.
@ Glenn
Thanks Glenn. Like I said I think it is a very important piece in what it exposes about the hypocrisy of BBC, and Saudi, US and UK governments.
I hope it gets picked up and discussed widely.
More importantly sometimes big things come in small packages i.e. this seemingly small act of deceit by the BBC brings into stark relief one of the core problems of America’s foreign policy (and West’s generally). The core problem being America and the West in drawing a bunch of arbitrary lines all over the globe some 60 to 100 years ago seek to impose an “order” that is artificial, imperial if not colonial, and unsustainable. And when America acts out of expediency, power, optics or bad domestic politics instead of sound moral and equitable principles in its foreign relations, its actions cannot and will not produce the results it claims are the aims of its policies (assuming those claimed aims are not in fact calculated lies to deceive).
@ JLocke
Except the actual argument is this:
GG says: I don’t view presence of X as a convincing argument for not doing Z.
GG didn’t say: There is no convincing argument for not doing Z.
GG didn’t say: There is no convincing argument for doing Z.
GG also didn’t say: There is some convincing argument for doing Z or not doing Z.
That’s what was confusing. The first three (one unstated but inferred) tended to read as if there was some argument for the fourth proposition (unstated but inferred).
As he cleared up below, it might have been easier just to somehow preface it all with–“I’m specifically not arguing for or against “support” or “not supporting” the “Syrian rebels” (however defined) for one of the following reasons: a) Syrian rebel groups and their respective goals are inscrutable, b) support for a particular “collection of rebels groups” might be problematic for one reason or another, c) none of what is at issue in Syria (other than humanitarian suffering) is or should be an issue that America needs to concern itself with for X, Y or Z reasons, or d) I simply don’t know enough about a) through c) to arrive at any particular position so I don’t want to confuse my point re: hypocrisy of BBC, and Saudi, US and UK governments with “support” or “non support” of one group or another Syrian rebels (however defined).
It was the digression for preemptive effect to head of the prospective accusation that Glenn “does not support the rebels” (however defined) that he was trying to head off. That’s why it came off a little unclear or decontextualized (or unnecessary and confusing) even for those of us generally not burdened by an inability to read for comprehension in context.
“So that covers the reading comprehension angle.”
No it doesn’t. If it did then GG would not have felt the need to provide this explanation/qualification when challenged:
“That paragraph was intended to say: acknowledging that Al Qaeda is fighting Assad is not, one way or the other, an argument about whether to support Syrian rebels. It was a way of trying to keep the focus on the BBC.”
Personally, I do not agree with GGs qualified position as well. If Saudi funded al Qaeda terrorists were responsible for the attacks of 911, then the ensuant “global war on terror” can only be cynically viewed as a US/Saudi collaboration to further advance an agenda of economic and political hegemony by means of state sponsored terror. Saudi-funded terror groups were instrumental in either providing the pretext for post-911 regime change in Muslim countries or the mean by which regime change was affected. The end-justifies-the-means rationale that is being used to foster support for regime change in Syria is no different from that which was ultimately used by the U.S. to justify regime change in Iraq and Libya (“The world is simply a better place without the likes of Hussein or Gaddafi.”). Likewise, the use of “international terror organizations” whose ideological origins can be traced directly back to Saudi Arabia are rapidly becoming the morally acceptable mean by which these heinous strongmen are being deposed. By embracing the efficacy of terror in the toppling of despots we are rapidly becoming hopelessly lost in the amoral abyss that exists between the banality of those who employ terror as an instrument of change and the horror of terror itself.
US Saudi Israeli coalition would have been the proper statement.Otherwise astute comment.
“US Saudi Israeli coalition would have been the proper statement. Otherwise astute comment.”
I was sorely tempted to include Israel; thus, your criticism is well taken.
Glenn has the problem of not staying focused on the article’s topic. At the last part of the article he starts criticizing the war on terror. So the whole thing comes across as ranting! STICK TO THE SUBJECT: THE BBC IS DISHONEST.
How do you know what my topics are? Pointing out the illusory, propagandistic nature of the War on Terror – as evidenced by the aid provided by the US and its closest allies to AQ – is one of the primary reasons I find this topic interesting and noteworthy.
Sure the BBC is dishonest, but this can’t hold the readers attention for more than a sentence or two. It’s a propaganda organ funded by the British government. It’s like claiming that the sea is wet. You don’t need to make endless arguments to prove your point.
The reason authors do this is not to bore readers, but rather to establish their credibility. Once you state something incredibly obvious, the reader is then primed to believe that anything else you might say. So you may as well cram in as many claims as you can, to take advantage of the situation.
‘funded by the British government’.
The UK government may set the BBC Licence fee and oversee BBC charter renewal, but lets be clear, the UK government does not fund it, the people of the UK fund it through said licence fee.
A distinction without a difference. The government controls the funding because they mandate the license fee and they call the shots. I vaguely recall someone refusing to pay their license fee on the grounds that the BBC was supporting terrorism and it is illegal to provide material support to terrorism. They lost.
Glenn, do you view Seymour Hersh as still caspable of delivering good investigative journalism , or do you see him as a spent force, superceded by the likes of Eliot Higgins.? At any rate he has written a convincing study of the sarin attacks, concluding that they were perpetrated by the rebels with sarin secured from Turkey. Recently a couple of Turkish whistleblowers have come forward to corroborate Hersh’s version.
Jonathan Steele, who used to write for the Guardian, but now seems to be sidelined, has long reported on the Middle East, and has quite a different stance to the prevailing view of Assad the butcher, Assad must go, and the great powers will decide who is to rule in Syria . Sorry. I am conflating a lot of different views here, and you probably don’t subscribe to all of them.
I am just so suspicious that all the major news sources seem to sing from the same song sheet, and miraculously find the establishment foreign policy position to be the right and just one.I had hoped the
Intercept would take a more inquiring position on Syria.Not weighing in on either side , but providing a bit more light and less heat
Hersh doesn’t fit comfortably into any ideological niche, so he’s a bit of a loose cannon. In addition, he’s a bit too old school – exhaustively interviewing sources to try and ferret out the truth. This may be admirable, but it really doesn’t fit the 24 hr news cycle (and I’m dating myself here, as everyone now realizes that no one’s attention span is anywhere close to 24 hrs). So while he may not be a spent force, he lacks Twitter followers and therefore can’t be taken too seriously.
When one’s allies are Al Qaeda affiliated fighters, one should stop and reflect on what strategic goals one is trying to achieve.
Why would the United States help its sworn enemy to gain control of Syria? To stymie Russia and Iran, which both have an alliance with Assad. This is the same logic the US used when supporting the Mujahedin in Afghanistan and that turned out well – the Russians were driven out and have been watching jealously from the sidelines ever since. Humanitarian arguments, which basically boil down to which side you would like to see massacre the other, are less serious.
I’ve presented the most convincing argument for supporting the Syrian rebels, but I’m willing to examine the most convincing arguments against. A desire not to help Al Qaeda is indeed unconvincing – you take the allies you have, not the allies you’d like to have. The other main argument against is that foreign powers fighting proxy wars only serve to aggravate the suffering of the Syrian people. However, this suffering is ultimately for their own good, so I don’t see why they should have any say in the matter.
So yes, the argument for supporting the Syrian rebels does appear more convincing, but only marginally. This must be why the US is supporting them, but in a half assed way. The more one analyzes US policy, the more impressed one becomes by their judicious weighing of difficult alternatives.
The end game for supporting the (jihadi) rebels includes:
* The recognized government of Syria toppled.
* The Russian military defeated and driven from Syria.
* The jihadis monopolize violent force in the remains of Syria.
Placing aside the absurd unlikeliness that this outcome would ever come to be, how is it anything but worse for the people of Syria and global stability?
Yes, our Pentagon leaders are brilliant at the science of splitting the difference. I wonder if the Romans ever excelled at it so much.
I became a whistle blower before the Snowden material was brought to our attention with the help of Glen Greenwald and his allies.
Indeed, the repercussions following my coming to attention where predictable. My business has been destroyed and I live in my truck.
But I actually have no regrets, and would do it again.
Therefore, it was easy for me to idealize Glen Greenwald, and I expected much of The Intercept.
However, I discovered that his associate at The Intercept, Jeremey Scahill, helped sensor a Catholic Nun, Mother Agnes–basically denying an audience in London with information that undermines do the US State Department narrative that the Syrian government used chemical weapons, sarin, on Syrian civilians.
Why would Scahill so vociferously work to silence Mother Agnes’ presentation?
Why has Scahill been so silent on topics like Syria–and not even a peep about Ukraine?
These recognitions and the questions about integrity this info presents undermines Greenwald’s apologetics or the clumsy assumptions he presents about what is actually happening in Syria.
I will write an I depth critique about Glen Greenwald’s narration of what is happening in Syria–as well as the history of how he has reported on this situation.
The US media’s narration of what has been developing in Syria and it alliances with terrorist jackals in the region isn’t even hidden.
But the onus is to develop a narrative on how this conflagration has been unfolding that is cogent, engaging a skeptical eye on event through critical investigation.
My biggest regret it that I actually expected Greenwald to engage this critical investigation as its mode of regular operation.
I don’t see that happening, and tens of thousands of people are going to be murdered and maimed so that the US can continue its criminal attack on the Syrian government and it citizens.
You are being lied to again, people–but then it’s alright, you aren’t a Syrian facing the ‘moderate’ liberators. (the supporters of whom one must be scrupulous to not offend. incredible)
“…….I don’t see that happening, and tens of thousands of people are going to be murdered and maimed so that the US can continue its criminal attack on the Syrian government and it citizens……”
Welcome to the Intercept, Mr. Assad. We’re honored…..
Glenn, I fear any kind of criticism of Russia will alienate a sizeable amount of your readership, which visits your site mainly because they’re looking for self-affirmation.
Reading criticisms of Western institutions lets them bask in the warm glow of feeling like inquisitive, independent minds who are better then the mainstream by virtue of their ability to pierce the manipulations of the media.
This manufactored self-image is so important to them, that they will attack with venom and aggression anything that threatens its simplistic design.
Think of them as the fascists of the left.
You are correct, most of us do this in our own way but there is a peculiar slice of the Western Left that worships authoritarians that are opposed to the US/NATO.
ha.
The only reason Putin is a hero to those of US who see through the ZioBS that you,your fellow travelers,the MSM and traitor pols spew daily,is because his is a voice of reason in a region of psycho rabid monsters so full of their own BS(like you sayanim)they have a q-tip factory in the occupied territories working doubletime (at 1/2 pay)to supply enough for all the sh8t protruding from your collective ears.
How true
– “the Saudi ambassador to the U.K. threatened in an op-ed that any further criticism of the Riyadh regime by Jeremy Corbyn could jeopardize the multi-layered U.K./Saudi alliance).”
The Saudis sure like to keep things secret. Why spoil the surprise of pro-democracy protesters in Riyadh, or the surprise of Yemenis, when they get their first exhilarating glimpse of western enabled weapons and prisons.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/harper-assured-details-of-saudi-arms-deal-would-stay-under-wraps/article26105853/
Glenn please tell me who these ”anti-tyranny” (I like this, sounds less ridiculous than ”moderate”) rebels worth supporting in Syria are please. Also would like to see your work on Right Sector, Svoboda and the oppressive Ukranian regime in general since you say you haven’t neglected Ukraine. Thanks.
One more time: I never advocated supporting anyone in Syria. Nonetheless, there are ordinary Syrians who hate the Assad’s family tyranny and were marching against it as part of the Arab Spring, and that has continued. Do you really doubt this?
You actually think everyone who doesn’t love Assad is a “Terrorist”?
Start here.
You know, I don’t think these people even bothered to read your article before commenting. The whole thread is full of this stuff. It’s like someone waved a red cape in front of a herd of bulls.
Well, for me, the schooling part of Greewald’s essay appears to communicate that he hasn’t paid attention to how this conflict has evolved over the course of four years.
He makes bald faced assumptions and statements of fact that are devoid of nuance or simply repeating suspect talking-points.
Couple this with the fact that The Intercept has been journalistically derilict in covering the geopolitical flash points, Syria and Ukraine, that could develop into ww3.
I am mistaken in expecting critical thinking and cogent analysis–and your expositions being consistent with your expressed ethics for many years.
But I also see this discombobulation as being a manifestation of the deep corruption in thinking on the part of the US empire and it’s hypocritical adjuncts at this stage in history.
The US is coming out as full-blow thug terrorists at this point—and got a great many of you people this is something you must avoid admitting or else your core identity would disintegrate.
You can be sane and defend what the IS and its Saudi fanatical buddies are doing in Syria–or around the world.
So it’s “Greenwald had a bad day…he didn’t proofread for clarity enough…positing these clumsy views as per the intention and scope of the article was just a brain fart, etc..”
I do not know what it was, but it really very clearly lets everyone know how Glenn wants his readers to see the situation in Syria.
He has no problems with external powers working with Al Queda engage terror and engage illegal agression within a sovereign state.
Dear ones, this is not an ungenerous interpretation–this was clearly communicated in the body of this essay.
Please, present evidence that what I claim isn’t the case.
Me and many others will await your creative interpretations of what Greenwald has presented here.
Do you need me to link to all the pieces we’ve written about Ukraine for you to admit how wrong this is? Or will you just say that it isn’t enough? Which topics that we’ve covered extensively should we have ignored in order to focus on whatever you think is Most Important?
Do you need me to show you all the articles and posts and tweets that have been written accusing me of turning a blind eye to the Syrian rebels and siding with Assad and Putin against them for you to admit that this accusation is utter bullshit?
Glen, you posted a really horrid screed by Masha Gessen.
It was shockingly terrible.
Your framing of equivalence as per the situation of what is unfolding in Syria right now, given the years that have brought us all to this point, is condemnable and squalid.
In another essay you charged Russian efforts to defend the Syrian government from the illegal forces that have laid waste to much of the Syrian country as illegitimate, as ‘imperialistic’.
After the Ukraine coup and US backed Anti-Terror-Operation, after Libya before that, and now with Syria–what is glaring is the misinformation and framing of the narrative.
I will write an extended document about the claims and assumptions that your present in your essay that are lazy, at best, but nontheless a frame that is bolsters the Cynical and illegal actions engaged against the Syrian government and its al Queda supporting allies.
You can do this knowing full well that absolutely none of the US establishment state-corporate media will put you on the spot for promoting the state department memes as it relates to the goal of laying waste to the Syrian state.
What you have done here is cynical–be simply clumsy or dumb is to not be familiar with how propaganda functions.
“Steven Hunt” now there’s an American-sounding name if I ever heard one. Why not go the extra mile little Putinbot and call yourself “Steve Rogers”?
I am 100 percent US stock.
My identity is public.
I am frightened for the safety of the Syrian people, and I support the legal and legitimate government of Syria.
A couple of years ago I became a whistle blower–uncovered substantial government corruption in annexing a major ecological crime.
No person or organization would help me.
Now I have not small business and live in my truck.
But, I don’t have the treat of US backed al Queda mercenaries that can overrun my city and murder my family.
I am safe–but I cannot enjoy my safety and watch the grotesque attitude of apathy and cynicism that is quite evident in the narrative Greenwald weaves of this situation in Syria.
The false equivalency and abject interpretation is intellectually and morally squalid.
This Glen Greenwald can only amend and salvage his good-name through actually providing cogent information about what has been unfolding in Syria.
But , as with Ukraine, I don’t expect Greenwald to truffle any feathers in the MSM and State Department–or the funders of The Intercept.
International Law doesn’t enter into the calcus–and Greewald’s distorted narrative is congruent with US imperial goals at this moment.
“legal and legitimate government of Syria.” Hmmm that’s definitely Putinbot terminology. Assad, like his father is butcher and mass murderer who could never even get close to winning a real election. If you’re not an Alawite its hard to understand why you would support such a man
Like it or not, the Assad regime is the legitimate government of Syria, and the US is engaged in aggression by bombing Syria, and arming jihadis and terrorists to fight the government.
Zionist bibibot response.
Putin rose up and said enough of this sh*t,murder mayhem and evil.Is he perfect,no just 90% or so perfect,but hey.
Can you please provide specifics to support these claims?
How the USA could find itself allied to elements of AlCIADa should be all over the MSM,but is not!
How is this possible?Either AlQaeda is a myth,or AlCIAda are our boys,and have been since the 80s.
And that Israel and the Saudis are now bosom buddies should also.
It’s a good thing them Zionists have a lock on discourse,or they’d be escorted out of America by US marshals.
Let us not forget, as George W. Bush conveniently did, that 15 of the 19 hijackers on 9/11 were Saudis.
Until the 28 pages of the Joint Inquiry into Intelligence Community Activities Before and After the Terrorist Attacks of September 11, 2001 are declassified, we will likely never know the extent of the involvement of the Saudi Government in 911.
http://www.28pages.org
To date, only an astoundingly low number of 30 members of congress have even bothered to read the pages.
The responses of some legislators that did read the 28 pages:
With the total assistance and nudging by the fifth column fourth estate.
The watchdogs of democracy turn out to be the wolves.
You’re my favorite journalist except for Abby Martin.
Ahh it was a mistake to put in the digression about supporting the Rebels, that will send the Putin and Assad lovers in a tizzy and distract from the central point of the article
Thank you for this insightful article which clearly demonstrates the West’s surrendering to medieval regimes from the Middle East and essentially giving out to blackmail (as Saudi Arabia’s thinly covered threats to the UK stressed today)
Manufactured news. I think we can safely assume there was no Saudi official and this story originated at number ten Downing Street, where someone is currently being chewed out for not catching the mistake.
Objection; distinction without a difference.
“I personally don’t view the presence of Al Qaeda “affiliated” fighters as a convincing argument against supporting Syrian rebels. It’s understandable that people fighting against an oppressive regime – one backed by powerful foreign factions – will align with anyone willing and capable of fighting with them.”
So if the people who demonstrated against the oppressive regime of Wall Street – backed by powerful foreign bankers – in the Occupy movement would have aligned with (or rather: been taken over by) people who slaughter, behead and eat organs of any American citizen who owns some stocks you wouldn’t think one could make a convincing argument against that (even if one agrees with Occupy)?
It’s a bit of leap from the situation in the US to the Syrian situation. If the Wall Street bankers started behaving as the Assad regime have, then the Occupy protesters may have legitimate cause to turn to violence. The US Constitution even makes provision for such action.
Those Syrians who protested Assad in 2011 did not turn violent. People controlled by outside forces started murdering Syrian Security Forces and the Syrian State responded in kind. How do you think the US government (who btw branded Occupy as “domestic terrorists”) would have reacted if foreign governments would have had Al Qaeda Suicide Bombers kill US police forces and bankers? Negotiate a power sharing agreement?
The difference between the Syrian Protests and Occupy is not the behaviour of the state in response to the protests. The difference is that Occupy was not hijacked by foreign powers and their Jihadi-armies. Occupy Protestors where just arrested, beat up, tear gassed and then gave up. Same would have happened in Syria without foreign intervention.
J. Corey:
Your pointing out what is obvious on the surface will not make a dent in this mentality.
An exceeding maliable, and dare I say brainwashed colonialist deep-coding.
Being among the exceptionalistas means being entitled to your own ‘facts’ and being able to set the historical time-line for the preferred narrative.
Works like a charm every time: “Assad is a dictator”, and he has murdered x quantity of his own people, etc.
By now the framing is well-known.
Crucially, you have to reinforce the big-lies that allow the empire the right to murder hundreds of thousands. Glen Greenwald inserts in this essay what appear as non-sequiturs, but in fact signal that he will cooperate with the blunt distortion that is necessary to get the US and Western population confused enough to back what has become a very cynical proxy war.
This proxy war requires people like Greewald to not object to the US and its barbaric ME allies aligning with fanatical terrorists.
What Greenwald’s readers have to be convinced of, and this is critical, is that the majority of the Syrian people support the mercenaries that are being funded by the US and its squalid allies that are in Syria to topple, not only Assad, but every legal institution that comprises the state of Syria b
This agression is clearly illegal, as per international law.
However, Greenwald and company count on the IS and Western intelligentsia being confused and hypocritical enough to not call this strategy for what it is–a massive crime that uses dissembling and outright terrorism to maintain global domination on the part of the US.
This is not hidden, this program is obvious.
However, people that deign to have an opinion also have to lookout for their individual and familial well being–so it won’t due to point up glaring hypocrisy and develop a cogent opinion on what shall be the rudimentary conditions (eg, adherence to international law) to solve this crisis.
Either there is international law, or the logic of thug terrorism and blatant lies determine outcomes.
This is essentially where we are under the insane dictates of the US and its fanatical allies b
Oceania was at war with Eurasia: therefore Oceania had always been at war with Eurasia. The enemy of the moment always represented absolute evil, and it followed that any past or future agreement with him was impossible.
@ Glenn Greenwald
This is an important piece. But some of your readers, including me, are confused by one of the paragraphs. Would you be willing to clarify it so we understand how it fits in with the rest of the piece?
In your view what is the meaningful distinction between an “Al Qaeda fighter” and an “Al Qaeda affiliated fighter“? And some would not question (although I would) that it is appropriate for Western nations and others to support “Syrian rebels”. Maybe you know more about the Syrian conflict that others, but what is the argument for “supporting Syrian rebels” in their armed insurrection against the recognized government of the state of Syria? Because I’m not aware of what that argument looks like nor am I sure exactly which “Syrian rebels” should or can be supported assuming their is a coherent justification for supporting any of them.
This is almost a tautology i.e. the enemy of my enemy is my friend (even though he may otherwise be my enemy) and it is understandable when groups band together to fight a “common” enemy. Is the argument that sometimes you have to make common cause with otherwise undesirable enemies against a common foe? That may be true historically for the US from Russia in WWII to the Mujahideen during the period Russia was actually assisting the recognized government of Afghanistan in the 80s. Isn’t the appropriate question–is the alliance necessary as an existential matter for the US? In the former it was, in the latter it wasn’t or was a choice as part of an American “geopolitics” calculus that you’ve generally took issue with over the years as immoral. And supporting the latter didn’t turn out so well for American in the long run particularly given once they outlived their usefulness to “US interests” their little slice of the world was abandoned. So why is it imperative or necessary in any way for the US and its allies to support any Syrian rebels? It sure as hell isn’t “humanitarianism”.
Again true and accurate as far as it goes, but what does it have to do (or maybe I and other readers aren’t understanding) with any larger argument for the sufficiency of the justification for supporting any Syrian rebel groups in the first instance?
Again true as far as it goes, but so what? Again how does this address the larger question, one way or the other, whether anyone has any business whatsoever aiding one side or the other in Syria?
I’m really not understanding how the above paragraph in any way assists your argument or journalism pointing out the hypocrisy of the BBC, the Saudi, US and UK governments.
If in totality if there are sufficient Syrian rebel groups (“moderate” and born of the peaceful Arab Spring) who are being exterminated by Bashar al-Assad as a result of their peaceful uprising which morphed into armed insurrection (or legitimate self-defense) then maybe we should have a frank honest discussion about whether there is a humanitarian or existential reason(s) sufficient for us to step in legitimately and either protect them, or put boots on the ground and impose no-fly zones and go to war directly with Syria to remove its government.
But short of that sufficient justification then as horrible and ugly as the mess is in Syria, inflaming it via “proxies” that cannot be “controlled” and with the potential for them to use the “support” we give them against us in the future, I’d say the only moral and rational approach to providing “assistance” or “support” for the Syrian rebels is for the US to lead the way diplomatically with whoever (Russia, Iran and Lebanon) is willing to forge a cease fire, humanitarian aid, and leave al-Assad in place but under UN sanction until he steps down or dies. But I think that’s about as good as it is going to get. The world has seen how it plays out when the West fucks around trying to execute its little illogical failure of a strategy of “regime change” from Libya, to Iraq, to Iran to South and Central America to VietNam . . . going on decades. But fucking around via proxies with Russia, Iran and Lebanon’s regular forces on the ground assisting a recognized long-standing ally in al-Assad is a very very bad idea for obvious reasons.
Appreciate it if you could clarify exactly what your thinking is regarding the blockquoted paragraph/sections. Thanks GG. Otherwise great piece.
I’m really not understanding how the above paragraph in any way assists your argument or journalism pointing out the hypocrisy of the BBC, the Saudi, US and UK governments. […] Appreciate it if you could clarify exactly what your thinking is regarding the blockquoted paragraph/sections.
I agree. It stood out to me as well as an interjection that did little to support the rest of the piece. It’s ended up being the most remarked-upon bit, which distracts from the rest of the story, a significant documentation of how the media propagates the narrative our governments prefer.
@ Pedinska
Agreed. I hope Karl is wrong below and Glenn will address why or what he was getting at in including it because at best it confuses his argument, is unnecessary to it, and actually gives space to argue that Glenn is advocating something he generally has a consistent history of opposing i.e. military interventionism in service of our nebulous geopolitical “interests”. And I don’t honestly believe that’s what he’s trying to do here so the paragraph is a bit mystifying in its purpose or what he thought it could add or achieve in service of the larger argument.
@ Pedinska
And now I better get back to my two chores for the day–replacing a sink garbage disposal and getting down to Powell’s Books so I can get a field guide for Chantrelles, Morels, Truffels and a few other tasty edibles I’m going hunting for tomorrow, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday. I found a giant cauliflower mushroom last week (Sparassis crispa) while fishing. It was worth about $50-$100 and I just gave it away to someone who wanted it because I didn’t want to mess with it.
http://northernbushcraft.com/topic.php?name=cauliflower+mushroom®ion=pnw&ctgy=edible_mushrooms
The weather is just about perfect for it right now up here in the PNW. And even if I don’t find any of the good ones, which I doubt, it’ll be a nice excuse to go walking in the woods in the rain all week digging in the dirt. Which is a way cool way to kill an afternoon this time of year even if you don’t strike mushroom pay dirt so to speak.
I won’t mention the other varieties that we occasionally come across and collect and save for other purposes. ; )
I only ever hunt for morels because there really isn’t anything else that looks much like them. Even the false morels are readily identifiable. WRT other edible mushrooms, I defer to the expert hunters I know who say you should learn from an expert as books leave too much room for mistakes to happen and they can be deadly. But if you know what you’re doing, then yeah, they can be great. :-)
rr, check into your local mushroom society. Their annual show is next Sunday.
I’ve been picking choice wild edible mushrooms in the WA Cascade Range for 15 years. I started with those wavy-cap wood-chip things way back in college but the choice edibles seemed too challenging. Not so once you’ve seen them in a display or in the field. Seattle’s mushroom society (PSMS) was my source of information. They have hosted outings where folks collect every mushroom under the clouds and bring them back to camp to have them professionally identified, cataloged, and cooked if edible.
@ Nuf Said
Thanks for the info. I’ve picked off and on for years, but just starting to get into trying for the high dollar edibles that there is a ready market for here in Portland. Truffles in particular (sorry about typo before). Just a fun hobby when the Ducks aren’t playing well. Like this year.
@rrheard
I had the exactly the same concerns that you have addressed here. Yet, I am not hopeful that Glenn Greenwald is prepared to address them.
However, the obtuse conflation which reads:
“The world has seen how it plays out when the West fucks around trying to execute its little illogical failure of a strategy of “regime change” from Libya, to Iraq, to Iran to South and Central America to VietNam . . . going on decades. But fucking around via proxies with Russia, Iran and Lebanon’s regular forces on the ground assisting a recognized long-standing ally in al-Assad is a very very bad idea for obvious reasons.”
has me just as confused. For instance, Chomsky convincingly argues that America’s foreign policy objectives were overwhelmingly met in its war with North Viet Nam. Libya is clearly on a course similar to that of post-Mubarak Egypt in that Khalifa Haftara’s US/UN backed coalition is poised to share power at a minimum, or seize power altogether in a manner similar to that employed by the U.S. trained General Abdel Fattah el-Sisi. A permanent U.S. military presence in IRAQ has effectively placed Iran in a position where all of its borders are shared with countries who have a vested interest in partnering up with NATO member countries in the development of energy infrastructure that will facilitate the unfettered western flow of Asian energy reserves; those same borders are now within protective range of Iraq-based U.S. military air and ground forces. In fact, some might successfully argue that the continued pretense of ISIS in Iraq is a good thing as it is now providing the pretext for the placement of a new U.S. air force in Kurdistan which is strategically positioned along Iran’s north-western border.
https://www.rt.com/usa/232303-kurdistan-us-military-base/
@ Karl
Okay fair enough. But I’d argue from any moral point of view or as a function of “policy” improving the lives on the ground of the vast majority of the peoples in the nations or regions I listed, has been a “disaster” from any sort of humanitarian or economic perspective.
I’m not denying that creating such “disasters” might very well be, and probably is, the “purpose” or “object” of US foreign policy in those places in the first instance.
But for the vast majority of people in Iraq, Libya, VietNam, Egypt, Iran and South and Central America I doubt you could argue that BECAUSE “US policy objectives have been met” as argued by Chomsky, that doing so has improved the lives of the people in those places. I’m sure it has enriched a lot of Western or US “interests” but that isn’t the same as improving the American people’s lives generally or any of the objects of our foreign policy.
Sorry for any confusion in that respect.
@rrheard
“But for the vast majority of people in Iraq, Libya, VietNam, Egypt, Iran and South and Central America I doubt you could argue that BECAUSE “US policy objectives have been met” as argued by Chomsky, that doing so has improved the lives of the people in those places. I’m sure it has enriched a lot of Western or US “interests” but that isn’t the same as improving the American people’s lives generally or any of the objects of our foreign policy.”
On this, I couldn’t agree with you more.
I get how it can be seen as a nonsequitir, but Syria is one of those issues that is polarized in the most maximum way possible, so people look for clues about what you’re advocating in terms of Syria policy.
Had I just said that an Al Qaeda affiliate is an important part of the anti-Assad fighters which the Saudis are arming, huge numbers of people would have said I was demonizing the rebels, assumed I was arguing against supporting them, etc. That would have been the big takeaway. It would have completely distracted from the point.
That paragraph was intended to say: acknowledging that Al Qaeda is fighting Assad is not, one way or the other, an argument about whether to support Syrian rebels. It was a way of trying to keep the focus on the BBC.
I get why some might think it achieved the opposite: that by including the digression, I actually took the focus off the BBC. But believe me, from experience, had I not said that, I’d spend all day answering accusations that I hate the Syrian rebels, that I’m degrading ordinary Syrians as Terrorists, and that I am acting on behalf of Assad and Russia by depicting them all as extremists. That would have ended up being the story.
I don’t usually like preemptive writing but sometimes it’s necessary to avoid those kinds of distractions.
Glen, you adendum actually puts your foot further down your throat.
Especially in light of your deriliction–as your journal has avoided delving into the situation with respect to where we are at today.
You don’t want to be construed as taking the position that Al Queda and its Saudi/US backers are engaging in illegal agression breaking international law.
God forbid that anyone accuse Glen Greenwald of defaming The fanatical mercenaries that are terrorizing the people of Syria!
No….because then Greenwald would have to put out the flames among the pro-moderate rebel faction of his readers, those fellow travelers that see no problem with Suadis and the US client regimes funneling more weapons into Syria to destroy the only legitimate government.
Greenwald has just put a huge foot in his mouth that he will forever have to own.
Your explanation, Glen, is just as bad as the clumsy framing of what is happening with respect to Syria.
Just as bad as Amy Goodman’s distortion this softened the way toward US terror and regime change in Libya several years ago.
Thank you rrheard. And thank you Glenn.
Excellent and thoughtful discussion.
@ Glenn Greenwald
Thank you for clarifying. I understand now why you wrote what you did. Makes more sense with the explanation you gave. Thanks again.
Glen as a thorough hater of the BBC, I really appreciated your article very much. Thank you.
Ron, it can’t be the case that Greenwald doesn’t know this.
In my opinion, the framing of messages in this essay communicates that Greenwald is willing to have The Intercept become a propaganda force that works in tandem with the US state’s goal of total domination.
Aren’t the connections that the US has forged with international terrorists toward further its cynical goals well documented by now.
But I have noted that The Intercept has been derilict in providing trustworthy always of the Syrian situation, and,likewise, Ukraine.
But the ignorance and lack of nuance in this particular essay by Greenwald displays a senescence on the level of historical awareness, general ethics, context, and critical thinking.
I think that this an area, pertaining to US geopolitical goals, that Greenwald and company need to adhere to so as to be economically viable.
But Greenwald just destroyed any credibility they have been trying to develop with this venture
As bad and convoluted–and this is the type of addled thinking on the part of intelligentsia that we see leading to major conflagration between world powers.
I support Syria’s right to resist external aggressive, and side with Russia, Iran, and China on this one.
Anyone taking the side of supporting The US/Sunni fanatics in the battle is fascist.
It doesn’t seem like English is your first language. I say that for at least a couple of reasons. One: just read what you wrote. It’s a garbled mess that seems like someone failed to translate from an internet translation forum. Two: you continue to make up conclusions about what Glenn has written based on your garbled mess of straw man arguments that Glenn has both, not written, and also has gone to explain below the line where you have either gotten it wrong or posted “utter bullshit.” But you just keep repeating the same stuff again and again, as if you can’t comprehensively read or understand English. Do you think the world in general will agree with this declaration from you, just because you wrote it? “But Greenwald just destroyed any credibility they have been trying to develop with this venture”
The scandal of the BBC’s clear fabrication of an atrocity, first broadcast on the evening of 29 August 2013 as the UK parliament voted on whether to intervene militarily in Syria, is something the media here won’t touch, despite abundant evidence which includes the identification of one of those who participated in the role of an incendiary bomb victim http://bit.ly/1qA9qAA http://bit.ly/1tFth3F
No-one can even agree when the alleged attack took place (including disagreement between the BBC reporter and cameraman concerned) http://bit.ly/1MjE2TJ. Questions around the UK registered charity and its staff/volunteers (one of whom is now a BBC presenter) abound http://bit.ly/1hYNSMR http://bit.ly/1RcPCOa
And then there’s the news not fit to print.
https://www.rt.com/news/319727-saudi-prince-drug-arrest/
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/saudi-arabia-prince-allegedly-snorted-cocaine-had-gay-sex-beverly-hills-1525533
“And regarding the anti-Assad forces as monolithically composed of religious extremists ignores the anti-tyranny sentiment among ordinary Syrians motivating much of the anti-regime protests,”
What “anti-regime protests”? Are you talking about 2011 and 2012? There are no “protests” now. There is only a war between an alliance of KSA, Qatar, Turkey, USA + usual suspects and al Qaeda on the one hand, and the Syrian state on the other. No-one who wants Syria to survive as an independent secular state is “protesting” now. They are fighting to survive.
Any support for any group involved in military action against the Syrian state is support for the inevitable anarchy which would follow its collapse; anarchy which would be far worse than what we see in Libya and have seen in Iraq, and anarchy which would inevitably lead to an endless continuation of war between despotic groups such as we see already in those areas where the Syrian state has, thanks to US and allied destabilisation, lost its grip.
Cornelius, in my view this position that Greenwald has just explicitly stated puts him unequivocally on the side of US imperial lawlessness.
Of course the Saudis and Brits support Al Queda mercenaries in their terror project in Syria.
More brazen, however, is the idea that these are “liberation forces”, and are supported by the majority of the people of Syria.
What Greenwald weaves here is incredibly crass and cynical.
I have noted some similar framing of the US axis goals in Democracy Now! some Pacifica programs.
When you have people like Greenwald supporting the US empire’s dynamic of illegal terror, you know that it is going to get much worse.
If I am someday rounded up and jailed for denouncing the US terror program, I can be safe in thinking that Greenwald and his billionaire backers will not come to my defense.
This is stupid, toxic, idiotic bullshit.
You’re exactly the kind of person I described above: people who, the minute “Syria” is mentioned, desperately search for hidden clues about hidden messages you’re supposedly conveying.
Hear this really loud and clear: IF I WANTED TO ADVOCATE ARMING THE SYRIAN REBELS, I WOULD DO IT EXPRESSLY AND CLEARLY. I wouldn’t rely on subtle suggestions. I wouldn’t give the slightest shit what people like you think if that’s what I believed. I’d say it, write about it, scream it from the rooftops.
I don’t believe that. I didn’t say that. The stuff you’re attributing to me is a figment of your pitiful imagination.
In fact, I’ve spent months being accused of being an Assad and Putin apologist by the opposite side of the same coin: people who think they found secret messages embedded in what I’ve written in which I’ve equated all Syrian rebels as Terrorists.
The whole point of what I wrote was to prevent this discussion of the BBC from being infected by paranoid obsessives on both sides of the Sryia debate from claiming to have located secret messages from me about whether to support and arm Syrian rebels.
IF I WANTED TO ADVOCATE ARMING THE SYRIAN REBELS, I WOULD DO IT EXPRESSLY AND CLEARLY.
It’s true that subtlety is not one of your fortes. ;-}
@ Pedinska
No doubt. Not sure who would ever accuse Glenn of being some sort of shrinking violet when it comes to taking a stand, explicitly and forcefully, regarding something he believes in. Which is not to say he never does subtlety (or nuance) because he does, but not very often by comparison to just letting it rip and letting the cards fall where they may. That letting it rip, no equivocation, and take no prisoners quality to his work was what attracted me to it in the first place.
But its not the same coin;the opposite view of those who want all this mayhem in Syria are from a devious,lying and distortionist Zionist viewpoint with an agenda.
An honest account of the Syrian situation from the Ziomonsters is non existent.They care nothing for the people or state despite their crocodile tears.
The war in Syria is shaping up to be another proxy war between Russia and the United States akin to that waged in Afghanistan in the 1980s. Anyone who has been following the air campaign by the soviets is aware of the fact that they are now running over sixty sorties a day against “anti-Assad fighters in Syria.” Although Russian news coverage most often characterizes its strikes as actions against the collection of groups that comprise the Islamic State (IS), reports of their most recent attacks have mentioned Al-Nusra specially.
“The strikes hit targets associated with Islamic State and Al-Nusra in the provinces of Hama, Latakia, Damascus, Aleppo, Idlib and Deir al-Zor, Konashenkov said.”
https://www.rt.com/news/319193-russia-strike-syria-target/
More interesting still is the fact that these strikes were intended to target facilities engaged in the production of “unguided missiles”:
“According to Konashenkov, Russian airstrikes destroyed “a command post and a communicating unit, which coordinated the actions of five armed groups” in Deir al-Zor. An ISIS mini-plant for the production of explosives and unguided missiles was destroyed by the strikes near the Hatla village in Deir al-Zor.”
Concordantly, an unnamed Saudi official has now (inadvertently?) revealed that anti-Assad forces may be armed with surface-to-air missiles by the Saudis:
“The Saudi official did not rule out supplying surface-to-air missiles to the rebels, a move resisted by many in the West for fear that they would fall into the hands of IS and end up being used to shoot down warplanes of the US-led Coalition or even civilian airliners.”
Those of us who are a bit long in the tooth can recall that a key turning point in the Afghan war against soviet occupation was the acquisition of surface-to-air (Stinger) missiles:
“The U.S.-built Stinger antiaircraft missile, supplied to the mujahedeen in very large numbers beginning in 1986, struck a decisive blow to the Soviet war effort as it allowed the lightly armed Afghans to effectively defend against Soviet helicopter landings in strategic areas. The Stingers were so renowned and deadly that, in the 1990s, the U.S. conducted a “buy-back” program to keep unused missiles from falling into the hands of anti-American terrorists. This program may have been covertly renewed following the U.S. intervention in Afghanistan in late 2001, out of fear that remaining Stingers could be used against U.S. forces in the country.”
More interesting still is the repeated references to Iran’s coordinated efforts in the coverage of Russian air strikes:
Iran Expands Role in Syria in Conjunction With Russia’s Airstrikes
http://www.wsj.com/articles/iran-expands-role-in-syria-in-conjunction-with-russias-airstrikes-1443811030
Before anyone faults me for describing Russia’s air campaign as “Soviet” in nature, please consider that I am merely mirroring the US/Zionist-driven narrative that is currently framing Russia’s foreign policy objectives as a mere resurgence of its cold war ambitions:
“Ultimately, however, it is up to Russia to change its ways. Propaganda-driven nostalgia for the Soviet Union’s Cold War-era “great power” status is obscuring the lessons of that time. The Soviet Union was an unsustainable empire; if it could not survive at a time when isolation and bipolarity were the order of the day, it certainly could not be recreated within today’s interconnected multipolar global system.
Russia already is in no position to confront the West: Its economy is withering, and it lacks solid alliances capable of countering US power. Putin is hoping that Russia and its BRICS partners (Brazil, India, China, and South Africa) will become “the future leaders of the world and the global economy,” as he put it in July, at the conclusion of the BRICS and Shanghai Cooperation Organization summits.”
Excerpt from:
Vladimir Putin’s Soviet Dream
By Shlomo Ben-Ami (former Israeli foreign minister)
http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/putin-mentality-undermining-russia-modernization-by-shlomo-ben-ami-2015-09
The BBC has become a UK government-controlled institution that is not allowed to do any unbiased, independent reporting anymore. What was once the UK’s flagship news organisation, a beacon of real reporting & journalism, has now subsided to a reliability level that is often no higher than the broadsheet newspapers (with which the UK is well-endowed) but with a façade of respectability. How sad.
Great piece Glenn!
POTUS and the current regime in this country use the war for all kinds of human rights violations, to find out we are providing material support to the enemy is FUCKING OUTRAGEOUS!
Come on people this is really fucked up!
“I personally don’t view the presence of Al Qaeda “affiliated” fighters as a convincing argument against supporting Syrian rebels.”
1. Supporting any violence on any side is a mugs game. You ought to understand that.
2. The Syrian Government was and remains a legitimate, internationally recognised Government of a Sovereign state. Outside intervention to undermine it is 100% illegal and amoral. When that intervention escalates the violence and leads directly to the destruction of civil infrastructure and forces millions to flee their homes, and become refugees, then ALL who instigate violence are equally culpable. There is a valid argument, that under international law, the Syrian Government has the right of self defence.
3. Your stance on the violence undermines your position as a reporter of truth.
Noting that a stated reason against support for the rebels is personally unconvincing (in his opinion) is not the same as stating personal support for the violence the rebels are engaging in. I was pretty sure that the above statement would be misread, and I would have edited it out for that very reason (if I were an editor here). Greenwald is an attorney by training, so he will consider all arguments being proffered and will occasionally note those that lack merit. It does not mean that he necessarily supports the opposing view when he does this.
3. Your stance on the violence undermines your position as a reporter of truth.
Please help me to reconcile your belief that this article indicates Greenwald supports violence with this statement from the article:
If anything, past articles indicate that Greenwald supported the Arab Spring – the movement against tyrannical leaders often supported by the US – and the rights of people to decide for themselves who should rule them. He has never, to my knowledge, supported interventions from outside any country and vehemently protests the violence that arises from such actions. Expressing empathy for those engaged in a struggle for self-determination – and a part of the article that was not its main intent to begin with – is not the same as expressing support for any and all means used to achieve that goal.
“Home again, home again, jiggity jig.” ~ ma mabel
That’s what I tell the Cornbread Mafia when they get outta line %^)
*as a ‘regular’, i reckon, I once pulled off the ‘mask of Glenn’ and … found a rescue dog!
Please tell Ma Mabel that I hope she enjoys the jam and applesauce. And that I’m sorry we couldn’t fit lunch into the schedule this trip. Hard to get Fred and the hound out of the hills once they get the scent in their nostrils.
I once pulled off the ‘mask of Glenn’ and … found a rescue dog!
Are you sure that wasn’t Dogwald? ;-}
https://twitter.com/Dogwald
“Expressing empathy for those engaged in a struggle for self-determination”
Do you have any evidence for actual syrian citizens “engaged in a struggle for self-determination” (apart from some ex-pats controlled by foreign powers)?
“I am going to tell you something. I was in England two years before the violence in Syria on other business. I met with top British officials, who confessed to me, that they were preparing something in Syria. This was in Britain not in America. Britain was organizing an INVASION OF REBELS into Syria. They even asked me, although I was no longer Minister of Foreign Affairs, if I would like to participate. ” – Roland Dumas, FM of France 1984 to 1986 and 1988 to 1993
“A. Internally, Events are taking a clear sectarian direction.
B. The Salafist, The Muslim Brotherhood, and AQI are THE MAJOR FORCES DRIVING THE INSURGENCY in Syria.
C. THE WEST, Gulf countries, and Turkey support the oppostition; ”
US Defense Intelligence Agency, 8/12/2012
Do you have any evidence for actual syrian citizens “engaged in a struggle for self-determination” (apart from some ex-pats controlled by foreign powers)?
I don’t. In fact, I agree with what Jose said below regarding the US co-optation of such movements to further its own goals. However, I will note that you cherry-picked what I wrote, which makes a bit more sense in the context in which it was proffered, to wit, that Greenwald’s statement was not what people are trying to make of it. At least, as I understand it. I think it would be good if he were to clarify it for readers.
I think the situation in Syria is far more complex than is easy to lay out, especially as a side paragraph – which would have to be oversimplified almost by definition – to the actual subject of the article, which was the BBC’s deletion of information that was quite telling and obviously shared inadvertently.
Glenn’s reading is surprisingly wrong on that. It’s fine to support uprisings when they are genuine, i.e. those occurring in the context of self-determination. None of what’s going on in Syria resembles self-determination. Supporting the Syrian rebels amounts to supporting imperialistic destabilization efforts. It may all have started with the Arab Spring, but the US/NATO long ago took advantage of the Arab Spring to try to get rid of independent governments in the region, and in the process completely sucked the life out of any genuine Arab Spring movement.
Jose, missed your comment earlier.
Glenn Greenwald, if he were genuine and courageous, would take what I say for consideration and reflection.
Likely he will not.
There are myriad ways to interpret what Greenwald has said in these paragraphs–and I am developing a longer exposition through which I engage the sentiments and Ideas he has with respect to the Syria situation.
A tragic aspect of the criminal and squalid reign of terror on the Iraqis is that the smartest folks in the room learned absolutely nothing from that horror.
And not learning is why Greenwald has internalized a set of assumptions about the terror the US is waving on Syria with its al Queda thug allies.
As I said, this is an example of what is best called jackal journalism.
There is never objectivity in valuable journalism–so Greenwald suffers a similar psychosis with the preponderance of what is simply horrid journalism, as it fuels the ecocidal pathology that is instrumentalists, deep-coded assumptions that are not questioned.
His summation of the Syria situation is a form of insanity–just like the tragic strategy of teaming up with mercenary terrorists to whack the Syrian government.
To the insane and sociopathic, the allies and strategies that the US has been engaged appear as blunt ‘realism’.
Group-think–not ya’lls friend.
Ahh..but you people have no authentic friends.
And, more your bankrupt–and too dumb to know it.
To be clear: you stated that just because US supported rebels align with Al Queda, that this presence of mercenary terrorist in The Syria regiem-change project isn’t sufficient reason to not support the groups using violence to overthrow the government.
You stated that very clearly.
Evidently, you have internalized the insane imperialist worldview that has wrecked so much incredible chaos and murder by the Western empire for too long.
But this article mascarades as some quibble with the BBC coddling Saudis–while you interject a rationale and a support for funneling weapons to support illegal agression.
This is precious, and indicative with how notable journalists, almost always, cover for imperial state violence.
Sad, but the mask is off.
LOL.
I pity you, honestly.
I’ll try this once, out of compassion:
“I don’t find Argument X to be persuasive for opposing Policy Y” DOES NOT EQUAL: “I support Policy Y.”
Find a sane adult to walk you through that — soon as you’re done with your Sherlock Holmes-like search for secret, hidden pro-imperialists.
The logic and the purpose of this article is befuddling.
You basically present an equivalence that is, to be generous, sketchy.
The forces backed by Saudi Arabia, Quata, Turkey, and it’s imperial master, the US/NATO alliance are the problem in Syria.
Also, you imply that there is broad support within Syria for the overthrowing the legal governing and military instituations.
This is based on what cogent analysis?
So the way I interpret the intention of this article is that your basically endorse the US and Saudi sponsored agression and illegal means to force a change in government.
Through logical acrobatics you equate the Syrian government’s internationally recognized right to defend itself from foreign mercenary terror as being the same as the claims by the Saudis and their Al Queda proxies.
This is a level of ethics that is profoundly abject.
You don’t criticize the US, The Brits and the fanatical Gulf State monarchies for pumping weapons to their mercenary jihadists.
This, in essence is what you endorse with your perverted logic in this essay.
Wow, the mask is off n
The logic and the purpose of this article is befuddling.
It is, as the title should tell you, an article exposing the rash hypocrisy of reporting done by the BBC.
The forces backed by Saudi Arabia, Quata, Turkey, and it’s imperial master, the US/NATO alliance are the problem in Syria.
The very first paragraph references that relationship:
The article then goes on to quote a BBC reader who makes explicitly that point:
So the way I interpret the intention of this article is that your basically endorse the US and Saudi sponsored agression and illegal means to force a change in government.
Your interpretation is incorrect. If you were a regular reader of Greenwald articles then you wouldn’t make the basic mistake of assuming that he would ever endorse aggression by the US or any recipient of its funding such as SA.
The only logical acrobatics occurring here are your own. In fact, I haven’t seen a more profoundly abject example of lack of reading comprehension in quite a long time.
You don’t criticize the US, The Brits and the fanatical Gulf State monarchies for pumping weapons to their mercenary jihadists.
If you are under the impression that Greenwald is a supporter of what the Saudis do, here’s an article you might want to read:
https://theintercept.com/2015/09/23/u-s-state-department-welcomes-news-close-ally-saudi-arabia-chosen-head-u-n-human-rights-council-panel/
The only mask involved here is the one covering your eyes that renders simple English complex enough for a reader such as yourself to completely invert the actual intent of the article. That you accuse the author of perverted logic is humorous in ways I’m sure you never intended. :-s
@ Pedinska
I think the only issue people have with this piece is the one paragraph that everyone is struggling with–me included. It seems unnecessary and confuses the otherwise straightforward thrust of his piece demonstrating the hypocrisy of the BBC, and Saudi, US and UK governments.
We, me included, just want a simple clarification. I don’t honestly believe Glenn is in favor of armed intervention in Syria (by anybody). But the way the paragraph is phrased and argued, you can’t blame readers for being confused in that respect. Maybe it is just a bit of unclear writing. Even Glenn occasionally falls prey to that trap of lack of clarity as all writers do.
But not sure it is fair to say we are all reading comprehension challenged in this particular instance based just on the fact that a lot of us a reading it and not understanding exactly what he is arguing or why that paragraph is necessary to the larger object of his reporting in this instance i.e. hypocrisy of certain parties when it comes to the “war on terror” or not arming and funding known “terrorist” entities/groups.
But not sure it is fair to say we are all reading comprehension challenged in this particular instance …
I have noted above in a reply to you that I agree with your request for further clarification, but nowhere have I accused everyone making that request/argument of having reading comprehension problems. If you note the specific issues I had with Steven Hunt‘s comments, I think you’d have to agree that he has twisted a lot more of what Greenwald wrote than just that one bit that many of us find problematic. To say that I have addressed all the folks who have made this observation as reading comprehension challenged is a little unfair and the sort of broad brush I am unaccustomed to seeing you wield. :-)
Very good expose’ of the BBC. They deserve to be horsewhipped.
It’s always worth noting that the BBC was the inspiration for Orwell’s, Ministry of Truth. They used to be a premium propaganda service but they are regularly caught in the act these days.
You link to a guardian bullshit propaganda piece.
https://www.rt.com/news/317188-putin-civilian-casualties-syria/
Try harder Glenn.
I read with interest (Guardian, about a week ago) where Sen. John McCain disclosed (inadvertently, I believe) The Free Syrian Army was a “CIA run operation” .
He oughta know…
“In fact John McCain even had his picture taken with a group of Jihadists. One of those Jihadists was FSA Khalid al-Hamad. It was Khalid al-Hamad who became known as the “cannibal Jihadists” after having a friend video tape him eating a human heart. It is also been reported that Khalid al-Hamad called his unit the “Osama Bin Laden Brigade.”
But it’s ok. They are really moderate.
That ambassador’s op-ed gives some statistics that make me curious: “Saudi Arabia ultimately provides over 50,000 British families in the UK and the Kingdom with livelihoods, thanks to commercial contracts worth tens of billions of pounds. Saudis also have an estimated £90 billion in private business investments in the UK.” How do they manage to invest over $3 million USD, with maybe a million additional in contracts, for every one job they create?
Simple, they invested in capital such as factories and machinery, which doesn’t get paid a salary.
Sigh… Glenn, what are you doing here? This polemic may be right, but it’s so over the top it reads like one of my old Usenet rants. I know virtually nothing about writing, but “show, not tell” comes to mind. We see you in a froth over a revision to an article that doesn’t sound so convincingly malicious. Oh, they _might_ be working on their lies together … but couldn’t it also just be confusion? He said they’re arming some people in Army of Conquest, not the whole Army across the board? For that matter, you haven’t introduced the organization well enough for us to be sure there’s only one – in my mind I’m thinking there are a lot of Arabic organizations with similar names.
Last but not least, there’s the use of the word “affiliate”. Al-Nusra really is a bad organization so far as I know, but that word isn’t convincing on its own. One of the first articles I remember reading in The Intercept had to do with “motorcycle gang affiliates” working in a nuclear power plant. Turned out it was a ‘gang’ of nuclear technicians driving around, one of whom apparently forked over $100 to some gang to not be attacked for wearing jackets with the “rockers” or whatever on the back of them. Doesn’t mean much – it’s a Joe McCarthy kind of word.
If al-Nusra is bad, SHOW us they are bad, SHOW us they are in Army of Conquest, and SHOW us that they get money from the Saudi Arabians. Please!
In reply to your 3 requests:
a) “SHOW us they are bad”
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-33092902
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/10/syria-al-nusra-front-jihadi
b) “SHOW us they are in Army of Conquest” (also, “Jaish al-Fatah” or “Army of Conquest” refers to a recently formed alliance, sponsored by Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Turkey)
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/19/syria-rebels-seize-key-regime-base-mastouma-idlib (“Al-Qaida affiliate al-Nusra Front, a key player in the “Army of Conquest” grouping …”)
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34196438 (“”Army of Conquest”, is an alliance of militant groups including al-Qaeda’s Syrian affiliate, al-Nusra front.”)
c) “SHOW us that they get money from the Saudi Arabians”
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34196438 (“The coalition’s success has come both from uniting a variety of rebel militias into a single fighting force and a rapprochement of sorts between their main backers, Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Turkey, which has allowed a new flow of cash and weapons.”
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/sep/20/the-four-questions-we-need-to-answer-before-bombing-isis-or-assad (“recent gains were made by the so-called Army of Conquest, backed by Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Qatar”)
This is no secret. Nusra’s leader al-Jolani even had an interview in al-Jazeera!
I was befuddled when I read the original BBC article. How could the British mouthpiece be poking at the al Saud family fun and adventure plan?!
Thanks to Glenn it is all clear now – it was just an error in judgement! The “unknown source” did not do his homework and did not find out until later that the “Army of Conquest” was the front office for a bunch of Al Qaeda affiliates.
After all, we should not be speaking ill of people who fund our campaigns, hire our family and friends as lobbyist, and pay us large sums to give speeches. So what if they also fund a few terrorists here and there!
Oh dear, oh dear — what’s Louise Cypher gonna say now that she’s back in business? Right on, GG. The BBC sucks just like the UK gov’t sucks.