In 2006 — years before ISIS replaced al Qaeda as the New and Unprecedentedly Evil Villain — Newt Gingrich gave a speech in New Hampshire in which, as he put it afterward, he “called for a serious debate about the First Amendment and how terrorists are abusing our rights — using them as they once used passenger jets — to threaten and kill Americans.” In that speech, Gingrich argued:
Either before we lose a city, or, if we are truly stupid, after we lose a city, we will adopt rules of engagement that use every technology we can find to break up (terrorists’) capacity to use the internet, to break up their capacity to use free speech [protections] and to go after people who want to kill us — to stop them from recruiting people before they get to reach out and convince young people to destroy their lives while destroying us.
In a follow-up article titled “The First Amendment is Not a Suicide Pact,” Gingrich went even further, arguing that terrorists should be “subject to a totally different set of rules,” and called for an international convention to decide “on what activities will not be protected by free speech claims.”
To make his case, Gingrich cited a 2005 Commentary article by the extremist former prosecutor Andrew McCarthy, titled “Free Speech for Terrorists?,” the central premise of which was that “the free-speech clause was never intended to frustrate government’s ability to suppress true threats to national security.” In general, McCarthy argued, we must say that “some things are truly evil,” and “that advocating them not only fails to serve any socially desirable purpose but guarantees more evil.” Thus, the U.S. government must “convey in the strongest terms that the advocacy of terrorism in this day and age is entitled to no First Amendment protection.”
Back then — just nine years ago — Gingrich’s anti-free-speech remarks were, for the most part, quickly dismissed as unworthy of serious debate. Even National Review, which employs McCarthy, included Gingrich’s anti-free speech proposal on its 2011 list of the bad ideas the former speaker has espoused in his career. In 2006, I argued that the Gingrich/McCarthy desire to alter the First Amendment to fight The Terrorists was extremist even when judged by the increasingly radical standards of the Bush/Cheney war on terror, which by that point had already imprisoned Americans arrested on U.S. soil with no due process and no access to lawyers. With rare exception, Gingrich’s desire to abridge free speech rights in the name of fighting terrorism was dismissed as a fringe idea.
Fast forward to 2015, where the aging al Qaeda brand has become decisively less scary and ISIS has been unveiled as the new never-before-seen menace. There are now once again calls for restrictions on the First Amendment’s free speech protections, but they come not from far-right radicals in universally discredited neocon journals, but rather from the most mainstream voices, as highlighted this week by the New York Times.

The NYT article notes that “in response to the Islamic State’s success in grooming jihadists over the internet, some legal scholars are asking whether it is time to reconsider” the long-standing “constitutional line” that “freedom of speech may not be curbed unless it poses a ‘clear and present danger’ — an actual, imminent threat, not the mere advocacy of harmful acts or ideas.”
The NYT cites two recent articles, one in Bloomberg by long-time Obama adviser Cass Sunstein and the other in Slate by law professor Eric Posner, that suggested limitations on the First Amendment in order to fight ISIS. It describes growing calls to ban the YouTube lectures and sermons of Anwar al Awlaki, the American cleric whom the U.S. assassinated by drone in 2011 (and then, two weeks later, killed his 16-year-old American son). It also notes that the desire to restrict the internet as a means of fighting ISIS has seeped into the leadership of both parties: Donald Trump said the “internet should be closed up” to ISIS, while “Hillary Clinton said the government should work with host companies to shut jihadist websites and chat rooms,” a plan that would be unconstitutional “if the government exerted pressure on private firms to cooperate in censorship.”
All of these proposals take direct aim at a core constitutional principle that for decades has defined the First Amendment’s free speech protections. That speech cannot be banned even if it constitutes advocacy of violence has a long history in the U.S., but was firmly entrenched in the Supreme Court’s unanimous 1969 decision in Brandenburg v. Ohio, about which I’ve written many times. The Brandenburg ruling “overturned the criminal conviction of a Ku Klux Klan leader who had threatened violence against political officials in a speech.” Even more important was the law that the Brandenburg court invalided as unconstitutional:
The KKK leader in Brandenburg was convicted under an Ohio statute that made it a crime to “advocate … the duty, necessity, or propriety of crime, sabotage, violence, or unlawful methods of terrorism as a means of accomplishing industrial or political reform” and/or to “voluntarily assemble with any society, group, or assemblage of persons formed to teach or advocate the doctrines of criminal syndicalism.” The Court struck down the statute on the ground that it “purports to punish mere advocacy” and thus “sweeps within its condemnation speech which our Constitution has immunized from governmental control.” The Court ruled that “except where such advocacy is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action” — meaning conduct such as standing outside someone’s house with an angry mob and urging them to burn the house down that moment — “the constitutional guarantees of free speech and free press do not permit a State to forbid or proscribe advocacy of the use of force” (emphasis added).
The First Amendment bars the U.S. government from banning or punishing speech even if that speech advocates “the duty, necessity, or propriety of unlawful methods of terrorism.” And that’s exactly how it should be.
There are millions of people in the world who believe and argue that the U.S. has been supporting tyranny and bringing violence to predominantly Muslim countries for decades as a means of dominating that region, and that return violence is not only justifiable but necessary to stop it (just as there are millions of Westerners who believe and argue that they must bring more violence to the countries of that region). In particular, it’s astonishing to watch Americans — whose favorite political debate is deciding which country should be bombed next or which individuals should be next assassinated — propose changes to the First Amendment to make it a crime for others to justify (not engage in, but merely justify) the use of violence in what they argue is valid self-defense.
Cass Sunstein with his wife, U.S. Ambassador to the U.N. Samantha Power, at the TIME 100 Gala on April 21, 2015, in New York.
Photo: Evan Agostini/Invision/AP
Above all, this has been the core lesson of the “War on Terror”: The greatest threats to Western countries have come from those seeking to limit rights in the name of fighting terrorism, not the terrorists themselves. There is no more compelling example than those who now explicitly advocate Newt Gingrich’s 2006 idea of formally restricting the First Amendment.
For the reasons I set forth here, no human beings or human institutions should ever be trusted to promulgate lists of Prohibited Ideas and Viewpoints. But even if you are someone who yearns for such lists, it should be immediately obvious that your dream of prohibiting ideas is utterly futile, particularly in the digital age (so predictably, the killing of Awlaki did not silence his ideas but rather, as the NYT reports, “enhanced the appeal of his message to many admirers, who view him as a martyr”). And, just by the way, there is still not a single example of a terrorist attack carried out on U.S. soil by anyone radicalized by ISIS’ social media campaign (contrary to initial reports, the San Bernardino attackers were inspired by the message of Awlaki and al Qaeda, not ISIS); this is the threat that some individuals are now invoking to dismantle a core protection of the First Amendment?
What makes all of this especially ironic is that not even a year has elapsed since the Western world congratulated itself for its flamboyant street celebration of free speech in the wake of the Charlie Hebdo murders. Remember all that? Yet now, explicitly advocating new restrictions on free speech and internet freedom is the norm.
It is essential to note that, for many years, the U.S. and other Western governments have been abridging free speech rights in the name of terrorism. They’ve already repeatedly prosecuted people — almost always Muslims, of course — for the ideas they have expressed on the internet and elsewhere. Those abridgments have already been severe when the villain was al Qaeda; now that it’s ISIS, these attacks on free speech are intensifying throughout the West.
But there is a difference between violating constitutional rights, as those cases have done, and formally restricting them, as people like Sunstein and Posner are now agitating to do. Guaranteeing free speech rights is one of the things that the U.S., relative to the rest of the world, still does well (not perfectly, but well). It is not an exaggeration to say that the people now plotting how to exploit terrorism fears in order to formally restrict rights of free expression themselves pose a clear and present danger to the U.S. (Sunstein previously proposed that the U.S. government “cognitively infiltrate” the internet by sending teams of covert agents into “chat rooms, online social networks, or even real-space groups” to discredit what he regards as false conspiracy theories, as well as pay so-called “independent” credible voices to bolster the government’s messaging). And as far as “hate speech” goes: there are few things more “hateful” than wanting to imprison one’s fellow citizens for expressing prohibited political ideas.
I certainly don’t think their right to espouse these dangerous ideas ought to be suppressed or punished. The solution to their dangerous ideas is to confront and refute them, not outlaw them. But it is vital to recognize the danger they and their ideas entail. We’ve been told for years that The Terrorists “hate our freedoms,” yet we cannot seem to rid ourselves of those who think the solution is to voluntarily abolish those freedoms ourselves.
Top photo: Members of a joint military honor guard stand watch over the Bill of Rights at the National Archives Rotunda in Washington, Dec. 15, 1991.
I agree. Not all ideas are good ideas. However, having the freedom to express them is tantamount in learning which is which. ANY restriction of our freedom of speech should be met with a deafing roar. That leaves no room for debate! It is not only unconstitutional, it is immoral! The idea that someone can be swayed by the rantings of another so much, that they will visit violence on there fellow man, is preposterous. These people to which they refer must have already had the urge to commit such acts prior to reading the political/religious beliefs of which ever group. They were only searching for a justifiable reason, or a group of accepting peers before commuting their act. That being said, they would have done what they did regardless of any restrictions placed on the internet. To believe that this practice will serve us “nongovernment individuals” is a fools quest. I like to think that people are smarter than that. Not just Americans, I am now, as always, referring to “Human Rights”. Your country of origin is immaterial.
entt read the other comments, so I don’t kf I am regurgitating someone else while preaching to the choir. Basic, 1st with the Muslims. Then there are plentry of domestic terroristWill be next. I definitely do not agree with anything, I repeat thats, I agree with nothing, well didn’t repeat myself But the white supremacist groups. despise, inbred. but they have right to free speech. I hate the speech. then you have your environmental and animal rights activists who will be next. I don’t always agree with their actions, their message needs to get out To others, information on the hell we truly treat Gaia, earth. and the horribly disgusting practice of research study on such as chimpanzees, who are forced to undergo torture. most of us seen the footage animal experimentation. then the animal agricultural business. that is the true destroyer of the ozone. Destroying rainforest to either grow crops for Beef to eat, or for training. Crops need LOTS of water. too much to write. to save our freedoms here, hate to say it but we need everyone here to have their speech to be free. something our forefathers agreed on. Intercept, this area 2 comment, not the comments sucks. would jump from bottom start erasing the beginning words. did that many times. why a lot of mistakes sorry haven’t proof read so if I screwed up again and said something wrong sorry
Democracy will always be an experiment in human political organization and socialization. That being the case, we should always be on the lookout for people like Cass Sunstein. People like him would be the first to implement the shredding of the US Constitution. Besides that, Cass Sunstein is a class A hypocrite. Just look how quickly he disgarded the ideas he expressed in his books during his confirmation process for the Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs. I have no respect for that fake “intellectual”.
Good article Glenn.
OK, I’m French Canadian, perhaps my last e-mail was poorly worded. I should have said: “Finally, a narrative whose author we would not have been able to distinguish given that this author could have been either Glenn or Sam…” Keep up the good work.
Finally, something both Glenn Greenwald and Sam Harris agree on! Happy New Year. Is this a prelude to a new era of collaboration?
Freedom of speech is not absolute and there are more important things like the environment and people’s lives. I agree with Glen’s attitude on this particular issue, but there are times when speech causes more harm than it’s worth. The prime example is the proverbial yelling “fire” in a crowded theater, but there are real examples of this. For example, the constant advertising in this society causes people to grossly overconsume, which destroys the natural environment.
The issue, as Glen points out, is who makes these determinations and what the criteria is for banning speech. Unfortunately, Buddhist monks won’t be making these decisions, and the people who would be have illegitimate interests that are not in the public good.
So, no solution here, but this is a serious problem.
@Lula
Your handlers are revisionists who attempt to bend history in order to justify the crimes that they commit.
And then regurgitate the nonsense into the gullible mouths of the likes of you for repeating ad nauseum as you do here in vain hopes of fooling the world.
Go do some real research instead of the supermarket specials that you regard as serious reading. And try the other side: speaking from a truth frame of reference.
TO BE CONTINUED…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3cXcS49D64
Yeah okay but the suspense is just too much. What will I do in the mean time? I know, I’ll measure the walls of text you post to see if there’s a pattern to it in relation to the amount and or size of posts on given threads.
So whether your reply happens and its actually something to respond to beyond toying with that derailing thing you do, I wanted to at least mention that the link for this
“In February 2003, a Florida Court of Appeals unanimously agreed with the assertion by Fox news that there is no rule against distorting or falsifying the news in the United States http://tinyurl.com/gua7k7b
is to a book “Censored 2005: The Top 25 Censored Stories
edited by Peter Phillips, Project Censored”
JSH,
I’m sorry. I didnt notice that you attempted to reply earlier. I didn’t see it.
Who knows why you posted that great wall of irrelevant text, not composed by you. You see some strange stuff on forums.
Lucky you, I’m here for about an hour longer.
I didn’t understand your point in that reply and then even stranger was the text.
You don’t think that Obama should go after Fox News for violating the Espionage Act? You think that is too extreme? Really?
What about President Hillary taking them to court? I thought you didnt like cable news.
Here’s my previous comment:
“Since corporations are people/individuals and money is speech now, I would support heavy restrictions on speech
I didn’t know that the clear and present danger test came from a 1917 conviction for violating the Espionage Act.
“It deemed a criminal anyone who, “when the United States is at war, shall willfully make or convey false reports or false statements with intent to interfere with the operation or success of the military or naval forces of the United States or to promote the success of its enemies and whoever when the United States is at war, shall willfully cause or attempt to cause insubordination, disloyalty, mutiny, or refusal of duty, in the military or naval forces of the United States, or shall willfully obstruct the recruiting or enlistment service of the United States, to the injury of the service or of the United States.” The act said such individuals would “be punished by a fine of not more than $10,000 or imprisonment for not more than twenty years or both.” The act also declared that any mailing that violated the above provision of the act was illegal, and it also banned any mailings advocating or urging Treason, insurrection, or forcible resistance to any law of the United States. Finally, the act declared it unlawful for any person in time of war to publish any information that the president, in his judgment, declared to be “of such character that it is or might be useful to the enemy.”
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Espionage+Act+of+1917
It’s legal for a news station to lie. News stations have much louder voices than mailings and us lowly no faced or sound commenters on a website.
They and endless others can shout fire in a crowded theater all day and every day supporting the narrative of how badass our newest threat is and promote disloyalty in the military during a war but its the freedom of speech for the old fashioned definition of what a person is (or what our overseers would call the “could be a terrorist” group) that should be restricted in order to make us safe.
( ex.to avoid a settlement given to whistleblowers: “In February 2003, a Florida Court of Appeals unanimously agreed with the assertion by Fox news that there is no rule against distorting or falsifying the news in the United States http://tinyurl.com/gua7k7b)
I wonder why the lawyering Obama adminstration hasn’t gone after Fox news for violating the Espionage Act?”
It’s a good question.
This doesn’t have anything to do with what I posted earlier on this thread.
Since its okay to spam the thread with words that aren’t your own, I’m hoping no one minds me using this commenting spot to say hi to a couple of people I like (you know who you are) that I’ve seen on other threads on this site and known for years from sharing other forum space.
I was going to say something but I couldn’t decide on what. Then time passes and you know so did the moment. I can’t keep track of the threads here anyway and I often forget where I posted. Seriously.
So its been a long time. Too bad we never took the opportunity to laugh at each other in person. ;-)
I love you guys
http://prometheusinaspic.blogspot.com/2011/12/spam-everyones-favourite.html?m=1
You, I don’t know.
impeachment
Also found in: Dictionary, Thesaurus, Financial, Encyclopedia, Wikipedia.
Impeachment
A process that is used to charge, try, and remove public officials for misconduct while in office.
Impeachment is a fundamental constitutional power belonging to Congress. This safeguard against corruption can be initiated against federal officeholders from the lowest cabinet member, all the way up to the president and the chief justice of the U.S. Supreme Court. Besides providing the authority for impeachment, the U.S. Constitution details the methods to be used. The two-stage process begins in the House of Representatives with a public inquiry into allegations. It culminates, if necessary, with a trial in the Senate. State constitutions model impeachment processes for state officials on this approach. At both the federal and state levels, impeachment is rare: From the passage of the Constitution to the mid-1990s, only 50 impeachment proceedings were initiated, and only a third of these went as far as a trial in the Senate. The reluctance of lawmakers to use this power is a measure of its gravity; it is generally only invoked by evidence of criminality or substantial abuse of power.
(cont.)
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Impeachment
How Will the Trial of Bill Clinton Affect Future Impeachments?
Impeachment, the constitutional method for removing presidents, judges, and other federal officers who commit “Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors,” requires a majority vote by the House of Representatives, and then conviction by a two-thirds vote in the Senate. President William Jefferson Clinton’s impeachment trial was the fifteenth in U.S. history, and the second of a president. Andrew Johnson, the other president to be impeached by the House of Representatives, was acquitted by the Senate in 1868 in a vote that mostly followed party lines. Especially in light of prior impeachments, seven of which ended with the removal of federal judges, Clinton’s case will affect the future use of impeachment, the process of impeachment, and the definition of “high Crimes and Misdemeanors.”
Clinton’s experience, like Johnson’s, shows that impeachment can be a tool of political warfare. Although the U.S. Constitution only requires a House majority for impeachment, many scholars and other commentators say it should be a bipartisan effort to remove a president who is dangerous to the nation. However, the world of academia differs from that of politics. In contrast, House Republicans pursued Clinton by disregarding polls that said two-thirds of the nation opposed impeachment. The vote in the House then fell mostly along party lines. Future House majorities could use this precedent to impeach a political opponent without substantial public support.
The price of the impeachment, however, was high for House Republicans. Speaker newt gingrich (R-Ga.) resigned after mid-term elections in November 1998, trimming the Republican House majority to six votes. Then, upon exposure of his own extramarital affair, Speaker-elect Robert L. Livingston (R-La.) resigned on the day of impeachment, urging Clinton to follow his example. Republicans and Democrats alike might hesitate to pursue another unpopular impeachment with so much at risk. However, when Democrats someday control the House of Representatives with a Republican in the White House, the human temptation for revenge will be great. As historian Benjamin Ginsberg observed,”The history of American politics over the last few decades is that the victims of a political attack denounce it as an illegitimate endeavor—but within a few years adopt it themselves. It’s like an arms race.”
As for the process of impeachment, Clinton’s experience may affect the future use of witnesses and the viability of censure. The House Judiciary Committee declined to call a single witness to any of Clinton’s misconduct, relying instead in the investigation by Independent Counsel kenneth w. starr. Democrats criticized this procedure, asking how the House could vote on impeachment without an independent investigation. (In fact, the only other time the House failed to conduct an investigation was when it impeached President Johnson, suggesting that such an approach is political.) During Clinton’s trial in the Senate, however, Democrats themselves opposed calling witnesses, a political move motivated by fear that witnesses would reveal something leading to conviction. House managers running the prosecution, who now wanted 15 witnesses after calling none in the House, had to settle for just three. Everyone will remember that lesson next time.
As an alternative to impeachment, Democrats tried to introduce censure resolutions in both the House and Senate. Republicans defeated these efforts. Some said censure was not a legal option, as the U.S. Constitution provides for censure of members of Congress but not presidents. Democrats, however, pointed to past censures of Presidents andrew jackson, john tyler, and James Buchanan, and suggested that Republican opposition stemmed from a desire to brand Democrats as supporting Clinton’s misconduct during upcoming elections.
Any future impeachment, whether of a president, judge, or other civil officer, will revisit the question of what constitutes “high Crimes and Misdemeanors,” which is undefined in the U.S. Constitution. Those in favor of impeaching Clinton argued that perjury and Obstruction of Justice of any kind are impeachable because they subvert the Rule of Law, making it impossible to expect lawful behavior from ordinary citizens and even future presidents, who are charged by the Constitution with taking “Care that the Laws be faithfully executed.” Those who opposed impeachment said that while perjury and obstruction of justice are wrong, they are not impeachable offenses unless they concern the president’s official duties and present a danger to the nation.
Clinton’s impeachment by the House and acquittal by the Senate thus will affect future interpretation of “high Crimes and Misdemeanors” in many ways. The House Judiciary Committee recommended impeachment for perjury in Clinton’s deposition in a civil lawsuit, and for perjury in his criminal Grand Jury testimony. The House voted to impeach only for the latter, suggesting that perjury in a criminal matter is impeachable, while perjury in a civil matter is not.
The Senate, however, voted to acquit Clinton of perjury and obstruction of justice even though most Republicans and Democrats believed Clinton lied under oath and tried to influence the testimony of other witnesses. As explained by Senator Richard H. Bryan (D-Nev.), “The president’s conduct is boorish, indefensible, even reprehensible. It does not threaten the republic.” This suggests that misconduct, even perjury, that is unrelated to the president’s official duties and does not present a danger to the nation is not impeachable.
As such, Clinton’s acquittal creates a double standard for impeachment of presidents and judges. In 1986, the House impeached and the Senate convicted Judge Harry E. Claiborne for filing false income tax returns. In 1989, the House impeached and the Senate convicted Judge Walter L. Nixon Jr., for lying under oath about conduct unrelated to his official duties. In neither case did anyone suggest that lying about personal conduct is not an impeachable offense. In fact, the House managers’ report concerning Judge Nixon said, “It is difficult to imagine an act more subversive to the legal process than lying from the witness stand. A judge who violates his testimonial oath and misleads a grand jury is clearly unfit to remain on the bench. If a judge’s truthfulness cannot be guaranteed, if he sets less than the highest standard for candor, how can ordinary citizens who appear in court be expected to abide by their testimonial oath.” The Senate’s acquittal of Clinton suggested that lying about private matters is an impeachable offense for judges, but not for presidents.
Finally, the most significant effect of Clinton’s impeachment and acquittal may be to define “high Crimes and Misdemeanors” to mean whatever the public wants. Scholars and politicians argued that the term purposefully is vague and undefined to allow Congress to handle each instance in the best interests of the nation. According to constitutional scholar Laurence H. Tribe, “[u]nless the rights of individuals or minority groups are threatened, our governing institutions are structured to make the sustained will of a significant majority all but impossible to topple—as the failure of the effort to remove President Clinton will dramatically illustrate.” Even Senator Orrin G. Hatch (R-Utah), who voted to convict Clinton, said,”It’s not just law. It’s politics …. And you have to combine those two and say—and this ought to be the prevailing question—what is in the best interest of our country, of our nation, of our people.”
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Impeachment
Candace:
(Closing para of your source)
The Espionage Act was eventually superseded by a less onerous Espionage Act passed after World War II. However, remnants of the act, particularly the non-controversial parts, continue to exist in American law as of 2003 (e.g. 18 U.S.C.A. § 793). The act is still cited by many civil libertarians as a law that went too far in its restrictions on freedom of speech.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Espionage+Act+of+1917
Are Obama adviser Cass Sunstein and law professor Eric Posner the famous Irish Amrican protestant?
Since corporations are people/individuals and money is speech now, I would support heavy restrictions on speech
I didnt know that the clear and present danger test came from a 1917 conviction for violating the Espionage Act.
“It deemed a criminal anyone who, “when the United States is at war, shall willfully make or convey false reports or false statements with intent to interfere with the operation or success of the military or naval forces of the United States or to promote the success of its enemies and whoever when the United States is at war, shall willfully cause or attempt to cause insubordination, disloyalty, mutiny, or refusal of duty, in the military or naval forces of the United States, or shall willfully obstruct the recruiting or enlistment service of the United States, to the injury of the service or of the United States.” The act said such individuals would “be punished by a fine of not more than $10,000 or imprisonment for not more than twenty years or both.” The act also declared that any mailing that violated the above provision of the act was illegal, and it also banned any mailings advocating or urging Treason, insurrection, or forcible resistance to any law of the United States. Finally, the act declared it unlawful for any person in time of war to publish any information that the president, in his judgment, declared to be “of such character that it is or might be useful to the enemy.”
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Espionage+Act+of+1917
Its legal for a news station to lie. News stations have much louder voices than mailings and us lowly no faced or sound commenters on a website.
They and endless others can shout fire in a crowded theater all day and every day supporting the narrative of how badass our newest threat is and promote disloyalty in the military during a war but its the freedom of speech for the old fashioned definition of what a person is (or what our overseers would call the “could be a terrorist” group) that should be restricted in order to make us safe.
( ex.to avoid a settlement given to whistleblowers: “In February 2003, a Florida Court of Appeals unanimously agreed with the assertion by Fox news that there is no rule against distorting or falsifying the news in the United States http://tinyurl.com/gua7k7b)
I wonder why the lawyering Obama adminstration hasn’t gone after Fox news for violating the Espionage Act?
Thank, Obama!?!
The new normal. Alas.
2015: A year of protests in America
Published time: 30 Dec, 2015 14:29
Edited time: 30 Dec, 2015 14:31
https://www.rt.com/usa/327455-protest-police-wages-year/
Top photo: Members of a joint military honor guard stand watch over the Bill of Rights at the National Archives Rotunda in Washington, Dec. 15, 1991. (:-]
My comment: That was then. This is now. The new normal. Alas.
@RRHeard – I doubt you’ll be back to look, but I’ll leave it here for you just in case. If nothing else, maybe it’ll make you smile.
You said (taking it out of context): “No quicker way to teach someone the hypocrisy of their own positions than to give them what they want, by using it against them. ”
You have far more faith in the ability of the compartmentalized mind to learn such lessons – no matter how they are presented – than I do. Indeed, you would seem to have more faith in mental filters in terms of even allowing in such information than I do.
And you seem to have more faith in the human mind to evaluate its own behaviour in any fashion similarly to evaluating anyone else’s behaviour.
A very long time ago, someone said to me, we all tend to judge others by their behaviour and ourselves by our intentions. And that, I might add, is even before taking into account selective blindness and confirmation bias.
In short, if one does to A what A does to B, it is my contention that it will be literally impossible for A to ever recognize, barring some unpredictable epiphany, that the two identical actions are in any way the same.
Now, you want to go further and use a minor incident as a kind of metaphor brought home most pointedly to bring about recognition of a much bigger and broader incident as essentially the same incident?
Good luck. I admire your optimism.
Happy New Year, RR – and to all you love and care about.
I thought the whole point of creating ISIS was to get rid of that really annoying bugbear (free speech) that some moron didn’t think out properly when he or she thought it would be a grand idea.
The problem with Gingrich was akin to, in principle rather than degree (obviously), the problem with the Nazis and Eugenics. He was obvious and blatant about what they want, embarrassing everyone. He had to be ignored and even, as you point out, later refuted and actively dismissed.
It was the same with Eugenics. The problem was that the Germans were embarrassingly obvious and up front about it, which made everyone hang their head. But Eugenics is very much alive and very popular among a number of people even now and even though it is pretty obviously about as bad a ‘science’ as one can imagine, even in a long list of bad science that plagues us today. We just don’t know about it because they learned well from the German error and keep their heads down. Mainly, they never use that word – Eugenics.
The trick is to look like you actually firmly support free speech, but what can you do? Then wash your hands like Pontius Pilate and proclaim sadly that it is a decision you want to take, but are being forced to. Best of all is to get the people themselves to ask for it.
Well, no worries, the Internet is one demon that is not going back into the box and with that, free speech is protected, EVEN IF they formalize it’s abandonment. A big desired outcome, indirectly, of all those trade agreements is obviously to control the internet. But that won’t work either. A lot of people will suffer for it, but nonetheless, they can’t control it without destroying their own communications.
Fascinating to see all this horror being played out in front of our eyes. Our leaders are doing like French leaders once did – they are losing their heads, except for the French, then they, uh, lost their heads.
We are going to see some deeply and profoundly strange things before all is said and done.
Extremism? “You’re either with us or against us.” “Now you’re gonna see how it feels to have America come down on you.” “This crusade, this war on terrorism is going to take a while. And the American people must be patient. I’m going to be patient.” – public (globally broadcast) statements made by former U.S. President, George W. Bush.
cru·sade
[kro?o?s?d]
NOUN
a medieval military expedition, one of a series made by Europeans to recover the Holy Land from the Muslims in the 11th, 12th, and 13th centuries.
VERB
lead or take part in an energetic and organized campaign concerning a social, political, or religious issue: “he crusaded against gambling in the 1950s”
synonyms: campaign · fight · do battle · battle · take up arms · work · [more]
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PROGRESSIVE BERNIE SANDERS … TRUTH TO POWER & TRUTH TO THE PEOPLE! SANDERS FOR PRESIDENT 2016!
@BernieSanders: Audit The Dept Of Defense, Contractors Wasting Money While #Vets Are On Food Stamps bit.ly/1IBrshj #FeelTheBern
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2015/12/29/bernie_sanders_audit_the_department_of_defense.html
” I helped create ISIS’: Iraq War veteran says US policy caused ‘blowback’ in Middle East ”
https://www.rt.com/usa/327404-usa-helped-create-isis-marine/
For any non-Americans like myself (or for Americans), this video below will provide a thorough explanation of the political meaning of the First Amendment or the concept of Freedom of Speech in the US.
As for myself, I have some sympathy for curbs on the freedom of speech, rights if it is the favor of ethnic/religious harmony. But as a concept, it is a brilliant one. And in this video from Glenn will make anyone appreciate the concept.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Kirz_vGQeI
Hmmph. I started watching the video again, and Glenn is talking more about the US constitution in general, and not just the freedom of speech. But watch it anyway. Its a great intro into what freedoms in America were “supposed” to be about. Great video.
APRIL 24, 2013
Book Discussion on Lone Wolf Terror and the Rise of Leaderless Resistance
George Michael talked about his book, Lone Wolf Terror and the Rise of Leaderless Resistance, in which he argues that independent terrorists like Anders Behring, Timothy McVeigh, and Eric Robert Rudolph represent a new kind of warfare that will become far more prominent in the 21st century. He also spoke about the April 15, 2013 Boston Marathon bombings. Professor Michael spoke at Westfield State University in Massachusetts.
http://www.c-span.org/video/?312468-1/book-discussion-lone-wolf-terror-rise-leaderless-resistance
On the trivial side of things…
I have fine class. And taste. I notice that the more I scroll down this article, the image of Cass and his wife gets to me, and it is not Cass or his wife.
It is the gown she is wearing.
It is plain ugly. Horrific colour that is an offence to my eyes. And I am not sure how the designer lives with him/herself coming up with something like that.
There’s nothing offensive about that gown except in the very general sense that to make pretty women wear clothing is a sort of sharia law that is harmful to the general well-being and aesthetic enjoyment of our people. Same is true for men, of course. :)
@Lula
You wrote:
” My OWN POINT was that you are stupid and ignorant to describe Saddam Hussein as progressive while all the facts available to everybody point to a non progressive leader. ”
Before I can continue with this pathetic discussion with you, I need you to know first of all, that progressive IS NOT defined by how many people a leader kills. Read this preceding sentence several times until the notion sinks in, however vaguely.
Next, look up the meaning of the word ‘ progressive ‘ as a noun, as when someone advocates new ideas for social change. In that definition, brain-dead, you will find no references to numbers of people killed !!! Next tell your handlers to teach you real history about Iraq. And buy you an Oxford Etymological Dictionary while at it.
When you are done, come back and tell me you are sooo sorry for being so imbecilic.
Otherwise I run the risk of appearing to have sunk to your level here…
And that’s no place to be.
I am so sorry for calling you stupid and ignorant. You are a lunatic. You do not have the brain power to understand even your own distorted argument.
Progressive: someone who advocates or implements “NEW IDEAS”.
Iraq: Democratic constitution: advocated and passed into law BEFORE Saddam.
Land Reform: advocated and implemented BEFORE Saddam.
Healthcare: advocated BEFORE Saddam
Women’s rights: advocated and implemented BEFORE Saddam.
Religious freedom: advocated, passed into laws BEFORE Saddam.
Nationalization of natural resources: advocated BEFORE Saddam. The leader who tried to implement it even got killed!
Autocratic rule: implemented BEFORE Saddam. Got worse under Saddam
Human rights violations: implemented BEFORE Saddam. Got worse under Saddam
Personality cult: implemented BEFORE Saddam. Got worse under Saddam
Corruption: implemented BEFORE Saddam. Got worse under Saddam
Religious persecution: implemented BEFORE Saddam. Got worse under Saddam
Persecution of ethnic minorities (Kurds): implemented BEFORE Saddam. Got to genocidal level under Saddam
What are the NEW IDEAS that Saddam advocated that made him the “most progressive” leader of the Arab nations? The use of natural resources to build roads, schools, hospitals? That idea was advocated and implemented way before him? Politicians even got killed implementing those ideas way before Saddam!
So, you do not even know Iraqi history and you are obviously incapable of noticing how ridiculous your argument is when you start defining your own words that clearly contradict your argument. Therefore, you are a lunatic. However, I will give you credit for your laughable defense when your stupidity is proven beyond doubt.
1) substituting Saddam by the US or Russia or Tuvalu…Entities that had nothing to do with Saddam, a grown ass man, deciding to be progressive or not
2) contradicting your own argument by defining “progressive” while Saddam social, economic, and political policies were advocated and even implemented in some cases way before he got to power.
Be proud to be a typical irrational supporter of Greenwald!
It’s been apparent for many years that teams of unemployed basement-dwellers and college students occupy daily chat rooms, online social networks, and real-space groups to discredit, prevent, or disrupt all thoughtful exchange/debate. One wonders if Obama/Sunstein call their strategy progress.
pairofpants: “One wonders if Obama/Sunstein call their strategy progress.” Damn good question! Bravo! Happy New Year/Normal! Geesh!
This from Obama’s buddy, and Samantha Powers’ hubby, Cass R. Sustein & cohort: (Hint … download, go directly to the Conclusion … and you can read for yourselves the corp-gov-nsa’s M.O., as in, modus operandi.)
Conspiracy Theories
Cass R. Sustein & Adrian Vermeule
Harvard Law School
January 15, 2008
http://ssrn.com/abstract=1084585
Don’t you just wonder how many some of these anon/bogus commenters are actually just “playing with themselves”? Kinda reminds me of the “circle-jerk” game beginning in the late 90’s.
That’s why I’ve always suspected that Craig Summers is one of these
“unemployed basement-dwellers and college students.”
I mean, it strains credulity that a person can SINCERELY be that obtuse, insulated to reason, and blind. Rather, I just think the guy is intellectually dishonest, as evidenced by the way he purposefully ignores points and arguments made to him that challenge his positions that can have no rational rejoinder.
I suspect that someone is paying him to argue here.
Aug 7, 2015 US Intelligence Confirms US Support for ISIS
A partially-declassified DIA report brings disturbing details about US support for jihadists in Syria. What kind of game is the US government playing in the Middle East?
https://youtu.be/d2WrwUM2RwI
ISIS was Saudi creation, not ours. But we look the other way when Saudis do anything because they are our dear friends. There ae some inviolable rules of friendship that we take very seriously, especially if they have some money.
Yes, and the Saudis were our invention. FDR’s actually. Funny that, in a way.
The First Amendment
The First Amendment guarantees freedoms concerning religion, expression, assembly, and the right to petition. It forbids Congress from both promoting one religion over others and also restricting an individual’s religious practices. It guarantees freedom of expression by prohibiting Congress from restricting the press or the rights of individuals to speak freely. It also guarantees the right of citizens to assemble peaceably and to petition their government.
Amendment I – Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/first_amendment
*Religious Freedom is our First Freedom*
As the world threatens to shrink the value of religious beliefs, people of faith show that religious freedom is at the heart of what makes the world a better place. Religious freedom is the freedom of conscience; the freedom to think, act and follow one’s beliefs. In America, it is our first freedom.
https://youtu.be/4h8W4sgpd00
Agent76: Outstanding research! Bravo! Thank you! Love it! :-)
Lula, oh poor Lula
Is it possible for you to ever see the forest at all, or are you just content holding on to a branch? Or just plain dumb?
Linkages by extension. Does that mean anything to you kid? Not progressive because Saddam slaughtered, is what you seemed to assert. Now what difference does that make when you substitute X for Saddam, to help illustrate YOUR OWN POINT even more clearer?
“Now what difference does that make when you substitute X for Saddam, to help illustrate YOUR OWN POINT even more clearer?”
Do you understand the word “dumb”?
My answer was to underscore how stupid you are by describing Saddam Hussein, a dictator with well documented non progressive acts as ” the most progressive” . Running away from your own argument
by substituting Saddam Hussein with Stalin, Hitler, the US, Japan, Chile…..is DUMB! Why?
Because my OWN POINT was not whether the US, Russia, or the Vatican is progressive. My OWN POINT was that you are stupid and ignorant to describe Saddam Hussein as progressive while all the facts available to everybody point to a non progressive leader.
I don’t see any at all and GG/TI has never come up with one explicitly. I find suspect that many of us have been saying this one way or another and TI has never come up with answers.
Actually, wikileaks generally does redact those documents a bit, but you are right, they don’t stand in the way of the right the general public has to factually know about such matters.
When wikileaks released the collateral murder video, they didn’t “responsibly” redact or “sanitized” it for public consumption, start rhetorical sparring over it, or, as Laura Poitras would have probably done, made a movie from it.
I remember Assange said once (something along the lines of): “If I get something about wrongdoings by politicians … I would not take care of judging their actions (what GG/TI does) but making sure as many copies as possible are made and spread of the deeds themselves …”
Can anyone point me to what Assange exactly said? I need it to finish this poem:
https://hsymbolicus.wordpress.com/category/poems/ (lies …)
It might be a matter of style, but I like way more Assange’s approach. In fact, I remember that Assange and Glenn have had differences about that very issue
I don’t care much about the marginal use of a word “racist” when Assange couldn’t have used “paternalistic” and he should have known the media would bite hard at hat bait. I get Assange’s point.
it “could harm innocents” … Probably it is Glenn’s/TI’s way of playing God. being “responsible”? Now, isn’t those the same arguments we had heard before? From whom, exactly?
When Assange, wikileaks published the collateral murder video they paid their respects to the people being killed in those countries, to Manning’s primary intent and to the right “We the people” have to know what is being “freedom-lovingly” done with our taxes in the name of “national security”, “justice”, …
RCL
General Hercules
The Chinese are not a war-mongering nation, although for someone diapered in wars, human slaughter plunder and destruction, and ESPECIALLY TORTURE, that fact is likely going to evade your comprehension.
Chinese fight without fighting. This is the highest level of kungfu fighting. That is precisely the problem. We can’t win battles where there is no ammunition used. That’s bad for our business. Only Mr Trump appreciates this. He is going to occupy all the islands that China illegally built and build wall around them with Mexican money. This will formally start the WWIII. After that there will be no ISIS.
@Lula
My Reply button is not working. You wrote:
“This is how a leader, Saddam Hussein, earned his “progressive” title from a Greenwald’s supporter:
1) Dujail Massacre: 140 Iraqis executed
2) Barzani Abduction: 8000 disappeared, 512 men discovered dead
3) Halabja Chemical Attack: 7,000-10,000 Iraqis deaths! ”
If your measure of progressiveness is as shallow as the number a military kills, then the U.S. must be the most progressive for killing more than 1 million Iraqis who did nothing against America ( the Lancet ), with millions more displaced during the brutal invasion and occupation of that country.
Just yesterday, 12.29.2015, CNN reported that more than 3.5 million Iraqis have been displaced by war against ISIS.
In the end, every Iraqi will be dead it seems, including the last desert lizard there. And all that will remain will be the foreigners who have much to gain from that eventuality. And the likes of you can brag about the fantastic freedoms you brought to the dead Iraqis.
Happy now?
Was your initial statement a description of SADDAM HUSSEIN or the US?
Are you aware how stupid you look by running away from your own words?
2015: A year of protests in America
Published time: 30 Dec, 2015 14:29
Edited time: 30 Dec, 2015 14:31
https://www.rt.com/usa/327455-protest-police-wages-year/
It is really mind-boggling that all the arsenal of the entire world cannot defeat a motley crowd of less than a hundred thousand fighters who don’t even speak the same language. There “must” be something wrong in the way the rest of the world is lined up against ISIS. This situation is defying logic unless you start with the assumption that we are being fooled by some of the participants engaged in the fight against ISIS.
Also, it is very suspicious that the Chinese are not taking part in this war, except to sell bogus and cheap defense systems to gullible sheikhs.
“Captured ISIS fighter says ‘trained in Turkey, ISIS thinks it’s safer here than Syria’ ”
https://www.rt.com/news/327222-isis-fighters-turkey-training/
“Evidence reveals Turkish regime affair with ISIS as global threat – Iraqi militia to RT ”
https://www.rt.com/news/327052-iraqi-militia-isis-turkey/
RT publishes a lot of rubbish, and then the other main-stream media pick then up and publish them. Don’t rely on RT for your news. This is one example of how RT is trying to mislead people that Muslims are all saintly blokes: https://www.rt.com/news/327488-iran-ayatollah-khamenei-address/ We know they were always after each others throats right from the days of their Prophet – though now they have jagged knives as well when then go for the jugular.
Anybody who thinks that their version of whatever is the end all and be all is full of it. Most religious figures (in every faith) are in the same boat. Factionalism within religious communities is a consequence of dogmatic thinking. You seem to have your favorite religion, but I’d say, don’t give a pass to other religions!
Yes, don’t rely on RT – also, don’t rely on NYT, WP, NPR, …. read them all and use your brain.
It is kind of odd that Al Qaeda has virtually disappeared as a threat of any significance in mainstream discourse. That’s not to say Al Qaeda has disappeared. If not for ISIS, I bet Al Qaeda would still be cited as the reason why militarism and so forth are required.
@Jose
That’s true. Every product has a life cycle and needs to be replaced when it reaches its end by something that else would sell. ISIS is Terror version 2.0. So look forward to version 3.0 release in a few more years.
It is really mind-boggling that you think that “all the arsenal of the entire world” has any relevance in a discussion of the fight against ISIS.
Point noted. I was only saying what folks fighting ISIS are saying, but the contradiction shows up, doesn’t it?
“Iraq under Saddam WAS THE MOST PROGRESSIVE OF ALL ARAB NATIONS IN THE REGION. Read this preceding sentence over and over until you get dizzy, and realize that not all who are lied to are easy targets for manipulation. As in your case, for instance.” Pat B.
This is how a leader, Saddam Hussein, earned his “progressive” title from a Greenwald’s supporter:
1) Dujail Massacre: 140 Iraqis executed
2) Barzani Abduction: 8000 disappeared, 512 men discovered dead
3) Halabja Chemical Attack: 7,000-10,000 Iraqis deaths!
http://civilliberty.about.com/od/internationalhumanrights/p/saddam_hussein.htm
This does not even include well documented cases of political assassinations, tortures, religious persecutions.
Either you don’t know what the word progressive means, which would not be surprising from a Greenwald’s supporter or you are just stupid.
Is this a contest to see who can misunderstand the most obvious word? Then you have won, failing to understand the meaning of “most”.
It is also very risky, that is if you want to maintain your world view intact, to list how many hundreds or even thousands of people a dictator has slaughtered. All of that is small compared to the number of Iraqis killed in the US invasion. Dare I say 100,000? How about 300,000? Or even 500,000?
So, what descriptive word does the US deserve for “freeing” the Iraqis from tyranny?
“Is this a contest to see who can misunderstand the most obvious word”
No. That was not a contest. However, you definitely won the one called
“The Most Imbecile Commentator of the Hour”. Why?
1) In order to be “most” progressive, then you have to be a progressive in the first place. What is progressive about a leader who created a cult of personality, committed genocide against his own people, tortured and assassinated opponents, persecuted citizens for their religion, and pocketed public funds?
2) And this is how you got your first prize. The US invasion of Iraq has nothing to do with how the commentator described SADDAM HUSSEIN. Hitler had nothing to do with what Stalin did to the Russians after the Nazi leader died. The US, UK, China, Russia, the Vatican…did not put a gun on Saddam’s head and told him to use chemical weapon against his own people!
3) Here a contest for you: How fast can you understand the word “whataboutery” ?
Look you fucking idiot, you attempted to invalidate a relative evaluation of SH by stating the absolute numbers of deaths involved in his evil deeds. If those numbers are puny compared to some other evil deed, especially one involving the same people, then your argument simply has no validity.
I am just amazed that you have the nerve to continue commenting here considering how ignorant you are.
“If those numbers are puny compared to some other evil deed, especially one involving the same people, then your argument simply has no validity.”
The argument that Saddam Hussein is not a progressive based on his well documented actions “has no validity”.
Another contest for you: how quickly you can define the word “ignorant”?
A hint: look at yourself in the mirror.
I see. So you are insisting on this:
If you try to put all the mideast rulers (past and present) on a line with the most progressive to the right and the least progressive to the left, the effort fails because some (at least one, SH) must be classified as not progressive, and therefore cannot be assigned a place on the scale.
Nonsense. An evil regime can have progressive elements, some more than others. If you think not, prove it.
Progressive: someone who advocates or implements NEW IDEAS. This is the definition even recognized by Pat b, the one who calls Saddam ” the most progressive” leader in the Arab nations.
King Faisal of Saudi Arabia: a monarch, a dictator by all definitions.
Advocated: education for women. End of slavery
Implemented: first schools for women opened under his rule. Abolished slavery by decree
These were new ideas and reforms in a tribal society that were advocated and implemented by a dictator.
What were the new ideas that were advocated and implemented by Saddam Hussein? Nationalization of natural resources was advocated and implemented BEFORE Saddam. The leader who passed the law was even killed! Women rights was advocated and passed into laws before Saddam. Land reform was implemented before Saddam. Use of state resources to build schools and hospitals was implemented before Saddam. Political reforms were advocated way before Saddam. The constitution clearly stated the people power to choose their leaders. Saddam and those before him just did not implement it. Saddam not stopping those policies that were advocated and implemented before him does not make him a progressive. There was nothing NEW about women going to school under Saddam. Nothing NEW about more Iraqis having more land. Nothing NEW about the government building schools and hospitals. What was new was the worsening of the autocratic rules and human rights violations to a genocidal proportion under his watch. That cannot make him a progressive.
So at least
1) try to have a basic understanding of the history of Iraq before you start describing its past and present leaders
2) Look at yourself in the mirror again if you want to define “idiot”.
I think the relative progressiveness of SH is indicated by his inaction in some areas; for example, he did not do away with all of the new ideas implemented previously when he came to power. Can you imagine the rulers of Saudia Arabia putting up with any of those new fangled rights unless forced to do so?
Saddam did this that and the other:
1 X killed
2 Y killed
3 Z killed
Oh good. And, I wonder, so what? Do the words “mind your business” have any meaning to you?
Well, we didn’t mind our business, we launched an aggressive war when we were not under threat, which in itself is a crime. And the result of our actions is so many times the number of dead in comparison, not to mention the ongoing disaster of today.
Children rationalize their crimes by what someone else is doing.
America intervened, usually militarily, in Central and South American 55 times between 1895 and 2000. It sounds like if there was anyone who needed outside intervention for purposes of regime change it was the USA herself.
Now, please, go play in the street or something, I probably won’t see your responses anyway. And why would I want to engage a sophist all day in the first place?
The point is not whether America or Russia or Brazil have had efficient foreign policies. The point is whether Saddam Hussein was progressive to the point of being called the most progressive leader of the Arab nations. I think everybody should know what Stalin, Bush, Castro…and many other leaders did. It is your choice to disregard history.
[JFYI] IRAQ: Oil for Food Scandal
Author: Sharon Otterman
Updated: October 28, 2005
This publication is now archived.
What is the controversy over the U.N. Oil-for-Food Program?
What are the latest revelations?
What did the earlier reports find?
What does the committee’s final report recommend?
What were the committee’s earlier findings?
What other investigations into Oil-for-Food are there?
What are the details of the CIA report?
How did the oil voucher scam work?
How did Saddam Hussein choose buyers of Iraqi oil?
How much could a voucher holder earn?
Who received the vouchers?
Which individuals were named in the report as voucher recipients?
Was it illegal to take vouchers?
What are the details of the allegations against UN Oil-for-Food chief Sevan?
How did Saddam earn his illicit funds?
What did Iraq buy with the money?
(cont.)
http://www.cfr.org/iraq/iraq-oil-food-scandal/p7631
The article’s last sentence reminds me of a response of mine to a Greenwald article a few years ago (probably in the Guardian) in which I suggested that the curtailing of our constitutional rights was actually the government’s strategy–its primary weapon– for defeating terrorism.
You see, if the terrorists–uh…whoever they are–hate us for our freedoms, all we have to do is ditch all of our freedoms, then, it would follow that they will no longer hate us, and America will be forever free from terrorist attacks.
Or, not.
@Wnt
My Reply button US not working. You wrote:
” Where is the evidence for this “part of Iraq” claim? ”
I have the least desire to of waste my time pounding the keyboard responding to you.
Instead, pls scan below for my latest comment to Craig Summers. It is my response to you as well. Share it with him, as in birds of a feather having an affinity for the same diet…
Your best excuse to support a dictator is to re-write history.
Under Mexican, US and international laws are New Mexico or California part of Mexico? Would you support a Mexican invasion of New Mexico?
Do you apply the same argument with the State of Israel? Indeed, Jews lived before Muslims in Palestine. So, do you support the view that Palestine is a Jewish land and the Palestinians have no place there?
I should add some data to the reply I made below. Kuwait (before the founding of Kuwait City) was an independent country run by Portuguese in the 1500s. Wikipedia has a map with a (larger) Kuwait marked out from 1670. In 1700, the House of Sabah did settle there and did have an allegiance/pay tribute to the Iraqi governor. ( http://www.gulfwar1991.com/Gulf%20War%20Complete/Chapter%201,%20The%20Iraqi%20Claims%20of%20Kuwait%20By%20Hassan%20A%20El-Najjar.htm ). However, it is a peculiar position to say that Kuwait is truly “a part of Iraq” just because its leader paid “40 bags of rice and 400 Frasilah of dates” regularly, in exchange for “a dress of honor”; I mean, that kind of system is just too different from ours to be compared very meaningfully. If someone controlling a region of Somalia makes bayat to the Caliph, do Western sources accept that his region is now formally part of the Islamic State? It’s like that.
Why is it that people wants laws violating all ten amendments, but not try to amend the specific amendment itself? That is problem no.1. Secondly it gives credence to the fact that the U.S. intelligence agencies formed AL Queda and now ISIS/ISIL for the express purposes of generating fear amongst the masses and then enact further control measures that will further enable that control.
” …. but not try to amend the specific amendment itself?”
That’s a risky business, considering that some people would want the Second one to be amended. We don’t want to set up precedents right now. Better deal with laws covering the rest while brandishing the Second for what it entails.
In other terms, the Projectors of The Shadow are doin’ a damn(ed) fine job of endlessly manipulating the Masses, worldwide – or at least in whiter realms – by using time-tried (Goering, Goebbels, Hitler, the Crusades, Inquisition) techniques for keeping the spotlight off their own very sorry selves and casting aspersions onto “easily identified” persons under the warped guise of providing protection from their – our alleged protectors – oversold ghosts… But hey! It’s the 5th day of Christmas and ya know, it’s not – by any stretch of the imagination – too late for an Epiphany!
We can only hope for such a wake up.
I read Newt’s article and shudder after learning the facts behind 9/11 a few years ago. Go re-read his words in light of who was really responsible.
To anyone who hasn’t fully examined the actual evidence, I would plead with you to please take a few hours out of your life and go watch a few things. You can look them up on YouTube right now.
– 9/11 Explosive Evidence: Experts Speak Out
– 9/11 Toronto Hearings – there is a short condensed 1 hour version but the full 5 hour version is essential viewing. The entire conference was given under oath.
I myself laughed at “truthers”, thinking I knew better, until I learned the actual facts. This is not some stupid tin foil hat conspiracy. This really happened. And having people wake up to this and actually become educated may be the only thing that saves us. It is absolutely imperative that individual people get educated, and share this information with those that respect them.
@Craig Summers
My Reply button is not working. You wrote:
” Really? The truth of the matter is that Saddam was broke after 10 years of war with Iran. He saw an opportunity to take over the Kuwaiti oil fields to regain some financial stability. This had nothing to do with righting a wrong. It was about opportunity and greed.
Quit providing excuses for the worst dictators on the planet, OK?
Thanks. ”
And this was your response to the fact that Kuwait IS part of Iraq.
I note that in your response, you do not refute the fact but choose instead to furnish an alternative reason. So far so good…
Let me remind you again that while Saddam was plagued with war debts after his war with Iran, during which he received American support I might add, none of it negates the reality of Kuwait being part of Iraq. In fact, your contention merely reinforces the fact. Saddam of course would want ALL of Iraq’s resources , including those in the territory called Kuwait, to help repay his nation’s arrears. And it did not help that Kuwait STOLE from Iraqi oil fields while he was busy fighting the Iranians.
Now, if you were capable of shame which you most likely are not, you would certainly not call Saddam the worst dictator on the planet.
Iraq under Saddam WAS THE MOST PROGRESSIVE OF ALL ARAB NATIONS IN THE REGION. Read this preceding sentence over and over until you get dizzy, and realize that not all who are lied to are easy targets for manipulation. As in your case, for instance.
Second, the sanctions were about to be lifted when the US decided to invade Iraq. Why invade? Not because of any of the predigested lies you have been fed, but because it was an open secret that Saddam was in the process of changing his reserve currency from the U S dollar to another.
Now as for your ignorance, it is the only attribute of yours that I admit to being totally astounded by.
For starters though, pls go read this:
” Ralph Schoenman, Iraq and Kuwait: A History Suppressed, Veritas Press, Copyright 1990 ”
I have at least 8 more books to recommend for your re-education after you finish reading this.
Oh are you people KIDDING me? Somewhere on this forum I’m taking flack for not condemning the U.S. for being war criminals because they were funding Hussein while he was gassing his own people and others with chemical weapons. And here you’re telling me Iraq was “the most progressive” … at the same time, under the same leader! And using THAT as a reason to condemn the U.S.! So we’re simultaneously criminals for backing and for opposing Saddam Hussein!
You have provided no proof for your claim that Kuwait, which has been an independent kingdom since the 1700s under the overall umbrella of the Ottoman Empire, is part of Iraq … rather than, say, Greece.
Yes. And this cognitive dissonance begets more of the same.
IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America
[Excerpt]
— That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — (cont.)
http://www.ushistory.org/Declaration/document/
H R 2029 —- YEAS —- 18-Dec-2015 9:49 AM
QUESTION: On Concurring in Senate Amdt with Amdt Specified in Section 3(a) of H.Res. 566
BILL TITLE: Making appropriations for military construction, the Department of Veterans Affairs, and related agencies for the fiscal year ending September 30, 2016, and for other purposes
—- YEAS 316 —
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Courtney
Cramer
Crenshaw
Crowley
Culberson
Cummings
Curbelo (FL)
Davis (CA)
Davis, Danny
Davis, Rodney
DeFazio
DeGette
Delaney
DeLauro
DelBene
Denham
Dent
DeSaulnier
Deutch
Diaz-Balart
Dingell
Dold
Donovan
Doyle, Michael F.
Duckworth
Duffy
Edwards
Ellmers (NC)
Engel
Eshoo
Esty
Farr
Fattah
Fitzpatrick
Fleischmann
Flores
Foster
Foxx
Frankel (FL)
Frelinghuysen
Fudge
Gabbard
Garamendi
Gibson
Graham
Granger
Graves (GA)
Graves (MO)
Grayson
Green, Al
Green, Gene
Grothman
Guthrie
Hahn
Hanna
Harper
Hartzler
Hastings
Heck (WA)
Hensarling
Herrera Beutler
Higgins
Hill
Himes
Hinojosa
Honda
Hoyer
Huffman
Huizenga (MI)
Hurd (TX)
Israel
Issa
Jackson Lee
Jeffries
Jenkins (WV)
Johnson (OH)
Jolly
Joyce
Kaptur
Katko
Keating
Kelly (IL)
Kelly (MS)
Kilmer
Kind
King (NY)
Kinzinger (IL)
Kirkpatrick
Kline
Knight
Kuster
Langevin
Larsen (WA)
Larson (CT)
Lawrence
Lee
Levin
Lewis
Lipinski
LoBiondo
Loebsack
Loudermilk
Love
Lowenthal
Lowey
Lucas
Luetkemeyer
Lujan Grisham (NM)
Luján, Ben Ray (NM)
Lynch
MacArthur
Maloney, Carolyn
Maloney, Sean
Marchant
Matsui
McCarthy
McCaul
McCollum
McGovern
McHenry
McMorris Rodgers
McNerney
McSally
Meeks
Meng
Messer
Mica
Miller (MI)
Moolenaar
Moore
Moulton
Mullin
Murphy (FL)
Murphy (PA)
Nadler
Napolitano
Neal
Neugebauer
Newhouse
Noem
Nolan
Norcross
Nugent
Nunes
O’Rourke
Olson
Palazzo
Pallone
Pascrell
Paulsen
Payne
Pearce
Pelosi
Perlmutter
Peters
Peterson
Pingree
Pittenger
Pitts
Poe (TX)
Poliquin
Price (NC)
Price, Tom
Quigley
Rangel
Reed
Reichert
Renacci
Ribble
Rice (NY)
Rice (SC)
Richmond
Rigell
Rogers (KY)
Rokita
Rooney (FL)
Ros-Lehtinen
Roskam
Ross
Rouzer
Roybal-Allard
Royce
Ruiz
Ruppersberger
Rush
Russell
Ryan (OH)
Ryan (WI)
Sánchez, Linda T.
Sanchez, Loretta
Sarbanes
Scalise
Schakowsky
Schiff
Scott (VA)
Scott, Austin
Scott, David
Sensenbrenner
Serrano
Sessions
Sewell (AL)
Sherman
Shimkus
Simpson
Sinema
Sires
Slaughter
Smith (NJ)
Smith (WA)
Speier
Stefanik
Stewart
Stivers
Swalwell (CA)
Takai
Thompson (CA)
Thompson (PA)
Thornberry
Tiberi
Titus
Tonko
Torres
Trott
Tsongas
Turner
Upton
Valadao
Van Hollen
Vargas
Veasey
Vela
Velázquez
Visclosky
Wagner
Walberg
Walden
Walorski
Walters, Mimi
Walz
Wasserman Schultz
Watson Coleman
Weber (TX)
Wenstrup
Westmoreland
Wilson (FL)
Wilson (SC)
Womack
Woodall
Yarmuth
Yoder
Young (AK)
Zeldin
Zinke
U.S. Senate Roll Call Votes 114th Congress – 1st Session
as compiled through Senate LIS by the Senate Bill Clerk under the direction of the Secretary of the Senate
Vote Summary
Question: On the Motion (Motion to Concur in the House Amendments to the Senate Amendment to H.R. 2029 ) Vote Number: 339 Vote Date: December 18, 2015, 11:31 AM Required For Majority: 1/2 Vote Result: Motion Agreed to Measure Number: H.R. 2029 (Military Construction and Veterans Affairs and Related Agencies Appropriations Act, 2016 ) Measure Title: A bill making appropriations for military construction, the Department of Veterans Affairs, and related agencies for the fiscal year ending September 30, 2016, and for other purposes. Vote Counts: YEAs 65 NAYs 33 Not Voting 2
Grouped By Vote Position YEAs —65
Alexander (R-TN)
Ayotte (R-NH)
Baldwin (D-WI)
Barrasso (R-WY)
Bennet (D-CO)
Blumenthal (D-CT)
Blunt (R-MO)
Booker (D-NJ)
Brown (D-OH)
Cantwell (D-WA)
Capito (R-WV)
Cardin (D-MD)
Carper (D-DE)
Casey (D-PA)
Coats (R-IN)
Cochran (R-MS)
Collins (R-ME)
Coons (D-DE)
Corker (R-TN)
Cornyn (R-TX)
Donnelly (D-IN)
Durbin (D-IL)
Feinstein (D-CA)
Franken (D-MN)
Gardner (R-CO)
Gillibrand (D-NY)
Graham (R-SC)
Hatch (R-UT)
Heinrich (D-NM)
Heitkamp (D-ND)
Heller (R-NV)
Hirono (D-HI)
Hoeven (R-ND)
Inhofe (R-OK)
Isakson (R-GA)
Johnson (R-WI)
Kaine (D-VA)
King (I-ME)
Kirk (R-IL)
Klobuchar (D-MN)
Lankford (R-OK)
Leahy (D-VT)
McConnell (R-KY)
Menendez (D-NJ)
Mikulski (D-MD)
Murkowski (R-AK)
Murphy (D-CT)
Murray (D-WA)
Nelson (D-FL)
Perdue (R-GA)
Peters (D-MI)
Reed (D-RI)
Reid (D-NV)
Roberts (R-KS)
Rounds (R-SD)
Schatz (D-HI)
Schumer (D-NY)
Shaheen (D-NH)
Stabenow (D-MI)
Tillis (R-NC)
Udall (D-NM)
Warner (D-VA)
Warren (D-MA)
Whitehouse (D-RI)
Wicker (R-MS)
Obama signs $1.1 trillion spending package, approves CISA surveillance legislation
Published time: 19 Dec, 2015 01:52
[Excerpt]
The new law authorizes companies to share information about cyber threats with “any federal entity.” Any company participating in the data sharing would be immune from consumer lawsuits…
(cont.)
https://www.rt.com/usa/326481-obama-signs-budget-cisa-bill/
»»»» PLEASE NOTE SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS VOTED “NAY” !
PROGRESSIVE BERNIE SANDERS … TRUTH TO POWER & TRUTH TO THE PEOPLE! SANDERS FOR PRESIDENT 2016!
@BernieSanders: Audit The Dept Of Defense, Contractors Wasting Money While #Vets Are On Food Stamps bit.ly/1IBrshj #FeelTheBern
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2015/12/29/bernie_sanders_audit_the_department_of_defense.html
Hey look, the new ‘Mona’, another blabbering nutcase through and through….
dickhead: There were no WMD’s in Iraq before or after the U.S. invasion in 2003.
Fear not the Path of Truth, for the lack of People Walking on It. ~ Robert Francis Kennedy
Cited on page 77 (Paperback), “FRONTIER JUSTICE …” by SCOTT RITTER Former U.N. Weapons Inspector.
On the power of propaganda and advertising
Like God’s power, the power of propaganda and advertising has always been assumed. With the greatest argument in its favor that, like God, why would the rich and powerful give so much money and attention to something that didn’t pay dividends?
It was argued that since coke and pepsi, like god and satan, had access to the same primal forces, the inability of one to beat the other was even more proof of the power of advertising and propaganda. The unmeasurable was offered as evidence of its enormous influence.
Now, thanks to Adblocking, we now have a direct way to measure the power of advertising and propaganda.
Adblocking is directly destroying advertising. Advertisers are no longer pitted against each other, but are united in common cause against one enemy–Adblocking software–with trillions of dollars at stake and the fate of political campaigns in the balance.
And they can do nothing.
All that power and influence and they can’t convince, cajole, hypnotize or push people to stop using the one simple thing that is destroying the foundation of their power.
Everyday more people start using Adblocking software through word of mouth, and an all powerful industry lays paralyzed and impotent, unable to do anything about it.
This is no God. This is not even a hypnotist. This is the world’s greatest scam (since god and race) laid naked before you. An old man already dead and rotting.
Do not underestimate the importance of this moment. Once again we are free.
Of course, this will take years to unravel. Like god and race, there is too much institutional inertia and too many philosophies wrapped around the idea that propaganda and advertising are all powerful.
As we start to accumulate all these Independence days in our lives, it is important to look at the common similarities of the bonds we have broken. There was never any real power or truth behind these things, but our chains were the belief that these things were true and powerful.
Free your mind and free yourself. It’s Independence Day.
ps
If you haven’t already, go install uBlock Origin on Firefox.
Adblock Plus, along with Noscript, works as well. Adblock plus needs to be installed in the Tor browser despite the warning about installing add-ons.
@General Hercules
Adblock Plus takes money to allow advertisements from corporations including Google. You really should switch from Adblock Plus to an adblocker that does not accept bribes to determine what advertising should be blocked. At that point, it really is just a shakedown.
http://techcrunch.com/2013/07/06/google-and-others-reportedly-pay-adblock-plus-to-show-you-ads-anyway/
“We’ve been told for years that The Terrorists “hate our freedoms,” yet we cannot seem to rid ourselves of those who think the solution is to voluntarily abolish those freedoms ourselves.”
Why is it that our ‘freedoms’ are most under attack at the times they are most needed? The first reaction to any ‘crisis’ in this country – whether real, instigated or imagined – is always to curtail civil liberties in one form or another. Kind of makes you feel that was the intention of the ‘crisis’ in the first place…
I have the highest regard for GG and The Intercept and have no desire to make my remarks personal to anyone.
I fear that The Intercept has fallen into the “Bill Moyers trap” it sits it its dim little corner of the internet exposing all sorts of wrongdoing – and is having little or no impact on the issues.
The “good deed” of investigative journalism must be accompanied with real political action to take political power from Neoliberal Imperial federalists and return sovereignty to the body politic. “Good deeds” even as dramatic as the reporting on some of the Snowden are still just that “good deeds.” Just as Bill Moyers, an honorable man, worked for 30 years exposing political corruption so too Glenn Greenwald may work for 30 years and accomplish about the same – because doing good works is not a political movement and only diverts attention from efforts to confront power.
Standing and pointing at corruption warmongering and war itself is useful to some extent but it still is just a good deed.
So, please be specific as to what acts us lowly readers and commenters can actually accomplish in this rigged system?
blueba is true blue.
It is not for him to tell you what you already know and what you should do about it.
Your choice is your choice.
And what the Intercept choices to do is its choice.
He is saying that the Intercept, to be something special, needs to do special things.
I predict that the intercept will disappear very shortly.
Snowden said all his documents had public interest.
The Intercept has done its best at hidding them.
only 1% published but shit what does that matter?
Yup, I seriously suspect that the Intercept’s traffic is tiny, just as Moyers audience was tiny. Actually, I have a higher regard for him than the Intercept. But that matters not at all.
I would ask Mr. Greenwald to come forward and explain his censorship of the Snowden documents. Where is his authority to do so in the public interest? What exactly is the reason to hide the names of criminals?
A real act of political courage would be to release ALL the documents and expose agents and anyone known to support the warmongering imperialism of the great Empire of the Exceptionals.
Standing on the sidelines and pointing is not revolutionary or even political its just standing and pointing. Assange did a revolutionary political act by releasing the thousands of cables he obtained, Greenwald stands (wealthly) on the sidelines and implies that perhaps some other people will actually do something and censors the documents he has but is unwilling to do anything himself. He’s happy to cash the checks though.
The people who’s names Greenwald has access to are criminals and part of a criminal empire what right does he have to protect them?
Dont get me started.
So much I wish to say.
I have this theory about the Interecpt but without proof therories are just stories.
I have asked the same questions as you have put. But this I can not get over.
Why so little of the documents have been published?
Who does it serve that they are not published?
Ed said they were all for public scrutiny, Glenn says no. Glenn says No.
GLENN SAYS NO.
What a stupid comment you made. Why? Greenwald and the Intercept reveal many excellent news stories which are never covered by the MSM. His reporting, along with the efforts of Manning, Assange, and Snowden have totally changed everything: by informing people of the truth of what has been going on in terms of government spying, torture, and war crimes. Your problem is you have the gall to think that Greenwald, or Moyers have to not only report the news–but for you they also have to “take political action” that you expect! Is there anything else you expect? Would you like french fries or onion rings with your serving of news? Now that you know the truth about government malfeasance thanks to Moyers or Greenwald, it is up to YOU to do something about it. Not them. Do you have any idea how ridiculous you come across? Very. Finally: Bill Moyers sits in his “dim little corner”? I mean, how stupid and projecting can you get? Again, very. Bill Moyers is internationally famous, has had many TV shows, done TV documentaries, countless interviews, has his own website, and is syndicated: by any measure the guy is a legend among investigative journalists, not to mention very well off. The only thing “dim” around here is your I.Q. level and ridiculous attitude of expecting everything to be handed to you on a silver platter.
Think, think about it.
What if your brightly light corner was seen only by you.
What of the rest of us, that wish to see and wish to participate.
Mr Greenwald has gone from daily articles at the guardian to the I drop in every now and then stage at the Intercept.
Look and you will see.
Why is Glenn not writing an article per day?
Can you make it on your own, or do you need a leader?
Your comment is so odd and senseless that I wonder if you’re a sock puppet or just really delusional. Look at your comment: ‘brightly lit corners’? ‘Articles every day from Glenn’? You, my friend are a nutcase, or you’re just here to make fun at other people’s expense. Who is holding you back from your so-called ‘participation’? Would that be Glenn and the Intercept staff? He’s not delivering you your ‘article every day’? You’re hopelessly lost, crazy, or maybe just a meth smoker conspiracy theorist who needs to get into rehab quick. And no–I won’t reply to your next bizarre, crazy comment. It’s a shame the comment threads under these articles are so full of crazy losers like you, too bad.
I have been saying the same thing all along and nothing has changed. In fact TI is no less shadowy about its ways than the governmental institutions it criticizes. They seem to be more interested in 3rd-party tracking their users than in spreading and defending the truth out there.
Of course, they understand well, what we are telling them, but, well, it may be that TI is owned by that ebay’s owner
Exactly! and even “good deeds” would go a long way towards “real political action” if they are driven to their ultimate consequences. Just pointing out politicians’ lies and being rhetorical is not enough. In fact, as you point out this is counterproductive because it gives legitimacy to the idea of “freedom of speech”: “Look there is indeed “freedom of speech”, see how much sh!t TI talks about and nothing changes, it seems “freedom of speech” doesn’t really matter after all…”
As the Yes men and John Oliver have masterfully showed to us, we must speak to “we the people” in the language they understand. But I guess TI is too professional, scholarly and elitist to do such things. TI doesn’t even care about translating their articles to “vernacular” languages out there such as Arabic, Portuguese, Spanish, French (French-speaking African countries), Hindi,Bengali, Russian, Urdu, … OK, Germans don’t need that since they most of them speak English and their media (der Spiegel) is very inquiring
In order to drive his point home, among many other things, John Oliver made a picture of his own junk and showed to Snowden. Since gringos are so puritanical about sex to the point of going crazy about Janet Jackson’s exposed tit, I am sure TI has compromising pictures of say, Michelle Obama fingering her husband @ss (to put it crassly), if what will make people understand the NSA’s reach and purpose is showing them such pictures, why not doing it?
BTW, if it would help anything, I couldn’t care less about posting a picture of my own @ss on the front page of the NYTimes
RCL
I am amazed Keith Alexander can get away with his cr@p with a straight face:
“‘We’ have to get permission from the (-secret-) ‘FISA courts'” …
// __ Last Week Tonight With John Oliver: General Keith Alexander Extended Interview (HBO)
~
youtube.com/watch?v=k8lJ85pfb_E
~
We should dump his own BS back on his face and TI can do that in ways which will make “We the people” at once understand what living in a police state means
RCL
Laws of Nature governing (stupid) people:
“Give a kid a toy and he’ll play with it.”
“Give a man a gun and he’ll shoot someone with it.”
“Give a leader an army and he’ll find a war to fight.”
“Give a bureaucrat a listening device and he’ll snoop with it.”
“Give a man a fright and he’ll create an enemy.”
“Give a man an enemy and his first priority will be to kill it.”
“Give a leader a voice and he’ll lie with it.”
“Give a citizen a right and a leader will find a reason to restrict it.”
“Give Cass Sunstein an audience and he’ll find something dumb to wow it with.”
Give a monkey a typewriter and you’ll get gibberish on the page…
Dear Mr Greenwald,
It certainly doesn’t make me feel comfortable that the same folks who defrauded us into a state of perpetual war are trying to dictate what we have to say on the matter….I think we would all be better served if they were forced to be held to account for their deceptions…and the unconscionable pain, death, and suffering they have caused., then by their taking our freedom away to demand it.
>”Fast forward to 2015, where the aging Al Qaeda brand has become decisively less scary and ISIS has been unveiled as the new never-before-seen menace. ”
Well, I think Posner, in particular, does describe ISIS as a “virus” able to draw unsuspecting impressionable minds into its “messianic world” (his words!), Glenn… and you should proceed quietly to the gates of hell and wait for it there!
The sun came up this morning. It was just another day. A shower came in and cooled things down, another day in a tropical land. Birds sang before dawn and the rain birds sang before the showers left. The sun and the showers and the birds did not care for free speech, for they spoke in their own words. And what they spoke was true. The birds sang, the sun came up, a shower came and the birds sang.
A sickness lies at the heart of America, a sickness that the constitution or the bill of rights can not mend. Indeed part of the sickness that is the American Society is tied to its historic and histeronic obsession with its own exceptionalism.
The clampdown is coming a little bird told me so.
The irony that those who demand restrictions on free speech are the very people who really need to put a sock in it amazes me.
Invalided? Invalidated?
“I asked this because both the Board and the Canadian terrorism specialist state that U.S. policies drive terrorism against us and the West in general” Mona
Even terrorism against Swiss citizens, citizens of Argentina, citizens of Sweden?
So, thanks to US policies, Islamist terrorists specifically target countries that have absolutely nothing to do with US policies and that have absolutely no leverage on US policies. I wonder who is the most ignorant, you, who follow the argument that if Greenwald or the Pentagon said it then it must be true, or the suicide bomber who believed he would actually be in Paradise after massacring dozens of Swiss tourists.
>”Even terrorism against Swiss citizens, citizens of Argentina, citizens of Sweden?”
Yeah, my heart goes out to all victims of terrorism. Paris/French citizens, California citizens … and Afghanistan citizens, Iraq citizens, Libya citizens and Syrian citizens too.
*After all, any way you cut it … ‘the world is but one country and mankind its citizens.’
This was covered back in 2001 by The Onion:
http://www.theonion.com/article/freedoms-curtailed-in-defense-of-liberty-213
Nathan: Outstanding research! Bravo! Thank you! Love it! :-)
Freedoms Curtailed In Defense Of Liberty
NEWS October 10, 2001
VOL 37 ISSUE 36 · Politics · Terrorism · Bush Administration · Civil Rights · Civil Liberties
[Excerpt]
“It is therefore urgent,” Rumsfeld continued, “that all Americans be quiet, stop asking questions, accept the orders of authorities, and let us get on with the important work of defending liberty, so that America can continue to be a beacon of freedom to all the world.”
http://www.theonion.com/article/freedoms-curtailed-in-defense-of-liberty-213
My comment: Translation … “Just relax, people. Lay back. Enjoy the ride.”
The danger is never stemming from free speech it is stemming from concentrated power used to promote particular speech and underlying political agenda or direct threats while suppressing, even only via technical means, speech of descent and disagreement, clarification, refutation or disputation.
Since the only answer to bad speech is more speech, it is critical that mass media is under public control and represent full spectrum of opinion, attitudes, believes and political, economic, cultural programs to be discusses under rational premises and under one fundamental principle of free speech namely principle of human doubt i.e. nonexistence of absolute truths within the society. Everything claimed to be a solution to particular problem should be proven and continuously verified for efficacy and impact on the whole society an d rejected as a unquestionable dogma.
The ability to doubt, to confront the facts without prejudice, to question our convictions or beliefs is a foundation of social peace and political compromise achieved by consensus. What I am talking about is beyond just tolerance, which is right of somebody to be wrong, it is about acceptance of varieties of worldviews under skeptical umbrella of fallibility of man and humility in all practical and philosophical matters including God and religion.
IS being itself creation of western propaganda with Hollywood style Middle East motives run by thugs and murderers is as much danger to young Muslim population as their ability to offer, all those youth disenfranchised from their own illusions of reality, adoption of another fantasy of utopian land of morality and godliness of the IS.
Similarly, like addicts who are vulnerable to heroine addiction as a cure for cocaine addiction young people are desperately refusing to face reality of exploitation and betrayal by their own societies and instead looking for fantastic illusions of grandeur and profound meaning of their discarded lives. Influence peddlers in Washington and IS are there to help.
More on Syrian War can be found here:
https://syrianwarupdate.wordpress.com/
stigira man: [Who’s] “… refusing to face reality of exploitation and betrayal by their own …” ?
Ron Wyden, Senator for Oregon
Wyden Votes ‘No’ on Harmful Cyber Bill and Weakening Oversight of Surveillance Programs
Friday, December 18, 2015
Washington, D.C. –Sen. Ron Wyden, D-Ore., today voted against a legislative package containing a dangerous “cybersecurity” bill and provisions to undermine independent oversight of government surveillance programs.
Republican leaders inserted an extreme version of the Cybersecurity Information Sharing Act (CISA) and the flawed 2016 Intelligence Authorization Act into a broader package of spending and tax bills.
“These unacceptable surveillance provisions are a black mark on a worthy package that contains the biggest tax cut for working families in decades, an accomplishment I fought for in weeks of negotiations,” Wyden said.
“Unfortunately, this misguided cyber legislation does little to protect Americans’ security, and a great deal more to threaten our privacy than the flawed Senate version. Americans demand real solutions that will protect them from foreign hackers, not knee-jerk responses that allow companies to fork over huge amounts of their customers’ private data with only cursory review.
“Ultimately, I cannot vote for this badly flawed CISA bill. The latest version of CISA is the worst one yet – it contains substantially fewer oversight and reporting provisions than the Senate version did. That means that violations of Americans’ privacy will be more likely to go unnoticed. And the Intelligence Authorization bill strips authority from an important, independent watchdog on government surveillance, the Privacy and Civil Liberties Oversight Board. This will make it easier for intelligence agencies – particularly the CIA – to refuse to cooperate with the Board’s investigations. Reducing the amount of independent oversight and constricting the scope of the PCLOB’s authority sends the wrong message and will make our intelligence agencies less accountable.”
https://www.wyden.senate.gov/news/press-releases/wyden-votes-no-on-harmful-cyber-bill-and-weakening-oversight-of-surveillance-programs
FINAL VOTE RESULTS FOR ROLL CALL 705
(Republicans in roman; Democrats in italic; Independents underlined)
H R 2029 YEA-AND-NAY 18-Dec-2015 9:49 AM
QUESTION: On Concurring in Senate Amdt with Amdt Specified in Section 3(a) of H.Res. 566
BILL TITLE: Making appropriations for military construction, the Department of Veterans Affairs, and related agencies for the fiscal year ending September 30, 2016, and for other purposes.
—- YEAS 316 —
—- NAYS 113 —
—- NOT VOTING 5 —
(cont.)
http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2015/roll705.xml
U.S. Senate Roll Call Votes 114th Congress – 1st Session
as compiled through Senate LIS by the Senate Bill Clerk under the direction of the Secretary of the Senate
Vote Summary
Question: On the Motion (Motion to Concur in the House Amendments to the Senate Amendment to H.R. 2029 )
Vote Number: 339 Vote Date: December 18, 2015, 11:31 AM
Required For Majority: 1/2 Vote Result: Motion Agreed to
Measure Number: H.R. 2029 (Military Construction and Veterans Affairs and Related Agencies Appropriations Act, 2016 )
Measure Title: A bill making appropriations for military construction, the Department of Veterans Affairs, and related agencies for the fiscal year ending September 30, 2016, and for other purposes.
YEAs 65
NAYs 33
Not Voting 2
(cont.)
http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=114&session=1&vote=00339
IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America
When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — (cont.)
http://www.ushistory.org/Declaration/document/
“Then ISIL, Al Qaeda, Taliban and Boko Haram i.e. “those groups” sound like they are problem that “most Muslims” are perfectly capable of dealing with without aid or assistance from America or the West.” Rrheard
Are you aware that every single government, militia, armed group, fighting those groups have asked help to fight them? Do you live in another world or you just believe that every single reporter from US, Germany, China, Russia, Afghanistan…..holding the mic on Nigerian, Iraqis, Kurdish, Syrian…officials specifically asking for foreign assistance to fight those groups is part of a grand conspiracy?
“More importantly, if “those groups” are statistically an insignificant risk to the daily lives of Americans and Westerners in their own lands, which they are objectively, then give me exactly one reason why America or the West should “intervene” to solve a problem that “most Muslims” seem perfectly capable of sorting out themselves?”
Is that a joke? Did you actually go to Nigeria and asked those fighting Boko Haram whether they can do it without foreign assistance and their answer was yes? Or maybe your argument is as long as they do not kill or enslave US or European citizens we should not offer assistance to those fighting them?
“So, can you please name us the Islamic terrorist groups that have killed more Americans than Muslims?” Lula
“Better yet can you name the “terrorist group” that has killed more Muslims than the Americans and their Western allies (and proxies in the region) have over the last 45 years in the ME?” Rrheard
Nice dodging. I am not sure what your argument is. Greenwald wrote clearly we (US) call “them” evils when we bomb “them”. We are bombing ISIL, Taliban, Al Qaeda these are groups that most Muslims and non American call evils. I am not sure whether you are trying to say that only Muslims are allowed to call them evils or you are saying I am wrong and that most Muslims do not consider those groups evils.
Title 18 U.S.C. § 4.
Whoever, having knowledge of the actual commission of a felony cognizable by a court of the United States, conceals and does not as soon as possible make known the same to some judge or other person in civil or military authority under the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/4
Hello again: 14 years and counting …
“Trying to dictate which views can and cannot be expressed on the internet, aside from being futile, is the modern-day hallmark of an authoritarian.”
Finland Constitution Chapter 2 Section 12:
“Everyone has the freedom of expression. Freedom of expression entails the right to express, disseminate and receive information, opinions and other communications without prior prevention by anyone. More detailed provisions on the exercise of the freedom of expression are laid down by an Act. Provisions on restrictions relating to pictorial programmes that are necessary for the protection of children may be laid down by an Act.”
2015 RSF World Freedom Press Index: Finland # 1
Finland Criminal Code Chapter 11 Section 10a
A person who makes available to the public or otherwise spreads among the public or keeps available for the public information, an expression of opinion or another message where a certain group is threatened, defamed or insulted on the basis of its race, skin colour, birth status, national or ethnic origin, religion or belief, sexual orientation or disability or a comparable basis, shall be sentenced for ethnic agitation to a fine or to imprisonment for at most two years.
Can anybody tell me whether the Republic of Finland which has had clear limits on free speech is run by an authoritarian? The RSF cited many times by Greenwald to describe the authoritarian regimes of Saudi Arabia or Israel does not seem to think so. Then you can call me “troll” and Mona can ask me to be banned in the name of Free Speech.
This is an obvious trap, since criticizing the Republic of Finland could be interpreted as hatred of Finns and lead to being imprisoned there in the remote event you might ever wish to visit the wretched place. So no, Finland is in no way authoritarian. The RSF, who evidently must have an office in Finland, fully concurs. Some criminals in Finland may <a href="disagree but they are obviously not impartial observers.
Link to article.
“So no, Finland is in no way authoritarian. ”
Really? What about Denmark, Sweden, Chile, Netherlands? And what about South Africa that placed limitations on free speech after apartheid? Are they run by authoritarian regimes?
Are you saying that Greenwald’s generalized statement is wrong? That there are indeed non authoritarian regimes that have limited free speech for decades?
.”Then you can call me “troll” and Mona can ask me to be banned in the name of Free Speech.”
Don’t flatter yourself and your desperate, raving projection.
Thanks for supporting the point that Greenwald’s supporters are mostly ignorant who attack the individual as they are incapable of presenting rational arguments against his view.
That is wrong also. But you have to keep in mind: a constitution is a SAFEGUARD. In the U.S., some interests, well represented in the media, keep bashing up against the constitution so often that Congress can scarcely close a session without the dead words of dead men being called up once again to try to fight the bills they passed to destroy our rights. Maybe in Finland the creep from “protection of children” to “prohibition of ridiculing religion” will just pause there for a while, without immediately being used to prohibit ridiculing the ruling party or the larger corporations. Or … maybe not. I don’t know their politics that well. But sooner or later, that constitution is sure to fail them, and when it does — Finland’s democracy will be at an end.
We’ve seen how quickly that happened in France.
I am not sure what is “wrong” about my factual point. Greenwald’s view is clear: those who demand limits on free speech are authoritarian. Yet, I have presented clear examples of countries that have had limit on free speech for years. Some of them have used those limits against their citizens and South Africa even passed those limits AFTER they toppled an authoritarian regime. Even by using Greenwald’s own benchmark (RSF Freedom Index) to describe authoritarian regimes, some of those countries are doing better than the US. My questions are simple: Are those countries run by authoritarian regimes? And is Greenwald generalized statement in wrong?
Are you sure the majority of French citizens whose authorities have used hate speech/defamation laws for decades believe they live under an authoritarian regime?
@lulu Sorry for being confusing! When I said “this is wrong also” I meant these or any limits on free speech in Finland – or anywhere else.
This from Obama’s buddy, and Susan’s hubby, Cass R. Sustein & cohort: (Hint … download, go directly to the Conclusion … and you can read for yourselves the corp-gov-nsa’s M.O., as in, modus operandi.)
Conspiracy Theories
Cass R. Sustein & Adrian Vermeule
Harvard Law School
January 15, 2008
http://ssrn.com/abstract=1084585
Self Edit: My bad … that’s Samantha (not Susan) Powers’ husband.
We have no Rights, they are just privileges… the king is not dead!
We’ve done been cooked. There is no such thing as “free speech”, and pretty much no “free anything” in the us of a (Almost everybody forgotten) anymore. If you ain’t a billionaire, you got no reason to be here MF. So now the next question might be, who’s gonna do your shit clean-up, cuz I got my own mess, and your’s is way uglier and bigger than mine. If I’m bein’ busy doin’ yours for some paltry pay, whose doin’ my junk for nuthin’?
The post lightly [edited] for accuracy:
“Mr. Greenwald
[I] continue to make [fantasies over] the Islamic [victims of] terrorists.
Again Glenn, [I first] put forth the same worn out, discredited hypothesis that [the US government – in its manifest benevolence towards all -] merely seeks [democracy, prosperity, peace, love, puppy dogs, and rainbows for everyone] In effect, [I try to] make [straw for the] killers. [The US state, like almost all states past and present, serves the interests of domestic centers of] power – and they are willing to kill anyone [anywhere] who opposes them. It makes no differen[ce] if they are Christian, Muslim or Jew. In that respect, they are no different than Mao, Pol Pot, Stalin and any number of past or current brutal political movements to gain power. [US forces and their client states and proxies] attack Shia [and Sunni, and just about every other kind of] Mosques, media outlets, minorities (Y[emenis], Kurds), women, little girls [- sometimes they’re slaughtered directly by] NATO [member-country] troops, and the list goes on. It matters little to them who[m] they murder – and certainly not [that they kill] Muslims most of all.
[The US has been] particularly brutal [on those who practice] Islam. They also have a very good media [propaganda] program which has successfully [indoctrinated me and many others]. Several [hundred] thousand generally young [and disproportionately poor and minority Americans] have traveled from [the US to fight and kill or be killed or maimed themselves in nations that never attacked the US]. How is that even possible?
Take the case of [Iraq]. Here is what one of the murderers said:
This is classic (state) propaganda. Daily, we (the west) are wiping out Muslims……we drop bombs and wipe out whole Muslim families. The killer is[n’t] even sorry that [hundreds of thousands of Muslims were slaughtered. And continue to be slaughtered.
Neither am I].
The answer is straight forward: I [have] political [sentiments that require about as much reflection and thought as my bowel] movements.
[I really don’t care the US and its clients] kill and terrorize Muslims to gain power[ and lie about the reasons for it all]. They [can all just] wipe [my] whole famil[y’s. . .], and [I am] clearly not sorry that Muslim women [die from] murders in Muslim countries.
You can frequently read about Shia [and Sunni] Mosques[, weddings, funerals, schools, homes] being bombed killing dozens of Muslims and wiping out entire (Muslim) families. The[ US clients such as Saudi Arabia] throw [cluster bombs and other munitions on] little Muslim girls – and attempt to murder them [wherever they are in Yemen].
The [evidence] that invading Muslim lands, killing Muslims through sanctions and supporting Israel is the reason for the blowback is [well-documented] based on [our] own record [and studies of the effects] of killing and terrorizing Muslims. However, that doesn’t mean that [state] propaganda doesn’t work on [me] – and a [large] percentage of western media outlets. The [Western media] is certainly guilty (as are a lot of rac..ists sites) of propagating [anti-]Islamic propaganda.
However, if you believe that we should change our foreign policy from interfering in the Middle East so they can sort out their own problems or change our foreign policies from protecting the oil supplies [through] which [the US tries to control] the world’s economy – then fine[; by acknowledging what the US is doing in the ME, I’ve just confirmed the dishonesty in the other claims I make about it. That’s because I] have been brainwashed.”
@ DocHollywood – Brilliant as always. Thanks you for your analysis.
@CraigSummers – Thanks for the Shish kabob reference. Nice [irrelevant] touch.
During the Cold War, it was the West, led by the United States, vs the Soviet Union. I believed then that two diametrically opposed ideologies were the essential core differences underneath it all. And nothing else.
Weapons systems development spiralled out of control on both blocks. But the Soviet Union raised the White Flag in the end. And I thought it was finally over. But I was wrong.
It turns out – looking at the fast erosion of civil liberties; the invasions and destruction, not just of individual nations, but of entire regions; the superlatively profitable weapons market today that dwarfs anything during the Cold War; the rampart 24/7 mind control torture of thousands of innocent Americans here, and in Guantanamo Bay; the mind control torture of young U. S. soldiers, leading to suicide rates of 22 in a single day; the creation of ISIS, and more – that I may have had it wrong all along…
Was the Cold War really about destroying the Evil Empire so as to have complete monopoly over its practices? Did the Soviet Union merely delay what had been planned all along – the systematic dismantling of democracy? Were civil rights laws enacted merely to silence the Communist criticism that would have surely been leveled at the U.S. for its treatment of blacks? Are the rampart shootings of blacks today testament to that fact?
Was the creation of terrorists, and terrorism, through unprovoked invasions of nations that did nothing to hurt us, and most recently, regime change of democratically elected leaders, a means to create reasons to justify all that this article states so well?
I know I don’t want to believe this because of the vulgarity of its implications. Yet I am unable to arrive at any other conclusion. I wish someone out there could help…
I inquired of Craig Summers whether the U.S. Defense Science Board (that produces research for the Pentagon) and a Canadian former radical Muslim now working with his government to stop terrorist attacks, I asked if these were “far leftists.”
I asked this because both the Board and the Canadian terrorism specialist state that U.S. policies drive terrorism against us and the West in general. The reason I asked because Craig constantly yammers that those stating this reality are of the “far left.”
This was the core of Craig’s reply:
There you have it. In CraigWorld Donald Rumsfeld commissioned a Pentagon report from the brainwashed.
Plankeye Craig’s ‘Murica can’t ever be wrong, Mona, because then Israel would be, too.
Mona
“…….I asked this because both the Board and the Canadian terrorism specialist state that U.S. policies drive terrorism against us and the West in general. The reason I asked because Craig constantly yammers that those stating this reality are of the “far left.”…..”
Well, that’s not quite true Mona. Obviously racist, misogynistic, far right wing Islamic terrorists propagate the same propaganda to advance their own cause. My initial post quoting the murderer of the British soldier was a good example of that. It is the far left in particular that echos the same lies effectively justifying the targeting of civilians by the terrorists.
Thanks.
@Benito M.
My Reply button is not working.
Is that really you speaking below???
The comment was produced by the Mark III model which is still in Beta.
To be fair, basically everything poses a greater threat to the U.S. than ISIS. Is there anything more pitiful than an adversary with no capability to directly attack the US, forced to launch pleas on the internet calling for someone in the US to carry out attacks on their behalf?
I recently read that over 1 million people in the US have been killed by guns since the assassination of John Lennon. So it’s clear that no one is as good at killing Americans as other Americans. So it’s pretty shameless of ISIS to jump up and claim credit every time a mass shooting occurs in the United States.
Basically, ISIS is a fraud. The First Amendment does not protect anyone’s right to commit fraud – just ask Bernie Madoff. So it’s not even necessary to annul the First Amendment in order to fight ISIS. But I suppose that when you’ve already made up your mind to do something, one reason is as good as another.
You’ve hit the nail on the head again, Duce, and the State’s effort to reduce free speech and other constitutional rights really has nothing to do with ISIS – other than they’re the currently convenient excuse. And those cowardly few that made up their mind decades ago to actually build a Big Brother – weren’t employing anything approaching reason, good or otherwise.
When politicians talk about about “terrorists”, it’s vitally important to understand that is the adjective not the noun – they are talking about “terror suspects” or “terror persons of interest” – which means DOUBT not certainty.
Virginia’s Fusion Center (post 9/11 blacklisting centers) actually take mere (non-terrorism related) “persons of interest” from decades before 9/11 and then place those innocent citizens on blacklists using terrorism authorities – which is a federal “color of law” crime by Virginia authorities. Essentially this state uses “terrorism” authorities for “non-terrorism” and even “non-criminal” cases. Virginia appears these powers to punish legal speech exercises.
The federal government could end much of this fraud by ending federal “preemption and prevention grants” which deputize local and state officials. This is why extreme secrecy is so dangerous.
This sounds interesting. Please explain more and/or provide an example. You might wish to do so using the various encryption methods provided by Glen & Co.
Just a handful unencrypted examples for you, American Coward, gleened from personal experience with your preening Stasi goon squads:
* Frequently sending serial stalkers to cross my path and bump into me with intent to provoke violence, even in the workplace. When I ignore them they get upset and complain I am not polite. When I’m polite they use it as opportunity to deliver a scripted insult using personal information they shoud know nothing about. I can guage the Stasi’s frustration by the increasing childishness, violence, and frequency of this tactic.
* Intercepted emails and phone calls related to mundane daily activities. They can’t seem to find real jobs, so they work for the Stasi and get paid act like 13 year olds.
* Stabbing me with IV in the top of forearm so anethesia does not take affect while I remain wide awake during first colonscopy. This particular adventure in May, 2009 still gives some of the rectally obsessed torture devotees in America The Beautiful an inordinate amount of pleasure, I’m sure.
* Stabbing me with needles in both arms during blood tests accompanying a State Farm life insurance policy. Result: not a drop of blood is extracted from either arm, but the shitty little patriot-girl had fun.
* Raising my State Farm auto insurance premium by 1000% and not explaining why or fixing the problem.
* Sending serial stalkers to wait for me at my apartment door when I leave for work, wait for me at the worksite’s parking lot, and wait for me at my apartment door when I get home from work. Sometimes they stutter-step when their timing is a bit off. (By the way, they do not like having their picture taken. Not at all.)
* Stasi goons moonlighting as worksite security guards, stalk and harass while I try to get work done.
* Stasi goons moonlighting as Human Resource and Marketing Dept. employees, stalk and harass while I try to get work done.
(These chicken-shit Americans Patriots were particulary repulsive.)
* Sending four steroid pumped soldiers to stalk me on the beach on New Years’ Day, 2006, just north of Rio de Janeiro, and using children to help them.
* Some Stasi goons have used their own toddlers to stalk me on more than one occaision.
* Sending a parade of uniformed soldiers to march by me in a US airport — eyes averted in unisison as martial sign of disrespect. Very brave nation saving operation indeed!
* Stasi goon squad trained mommy, sister, and brother-in-law (a brave, nation savining F-15 pilot who never lifted a finger in defense of his country) to deliver carefully staged death threats when I confronted them in Texas, November, 2008. Then sent large goon follow me from Austin airport to Dulles to follow up. Nation Saved Again! God Bless the Stasi.
* Death threat from Texas after arranging to attend my father’s funeral in December 2004.
* Putting on Stasi Zersetzung Skit® while barber goon shaves me with straight-razor and pokes me in the eye twice with his scissors. Little adventure was introduced by goon saying I “would get the package”.
* Having Stasi Controller Goon watch very carefully as Vietnam War generation rent-girl pulls out hair with shears and yanks 40 year old scare to inflict pain. Nation Saved! Again!
* Stasi Goons blocking transactions in Texas (2015) when trying to use debit/credit cards — all paid up — with messages for cashier such as “do not honor”. Nation Saved Again!
* Military hero (USAF I have reason to believe) repeatedly punches phone’s “commando ringtone” button on flight to “sensitize me” to this noise, then fellow apparatchiks follow up by doing the same thing, over and over at former Silicon Valley worksite and Brazil. Even went so far as to persuade our maid’s son, in Brazil, to install this obnoxious crap on her phone.
* Stalking me with a helicopter parked over my head for about 15″-20″ while in my London aparment in late 2005 — soon after 7/7 bombings, when I had just thanked Bush and Blair for putting so many in the firing line by invading Iraq. Nice Shootin’ Tex!
* Waving their gadgets at me in public places.
* Sending threatening emails.
* Broadcasting insulting images and jokes to an internet endpoint: TVs. On one occasion, broadcasted the famous torture image of man completely covered, standing on a box, with electrodes hanging off extremities. I believe this man was tortued at Abu Graibh; many are familiar with the image.
* Trying to ply me with really, really young Chinese prostitute-patriot in attempt to disrupt happy marriage to Chinese born Brazilian woman. A Great Lady, who they have also threatened.
* Playing non-stop 13 year-old brat-games in the elevator next to my former Silicon Valley apartment. On one occasion, technically adult-aged serial stalker was dressed up a as a little dog; his hair do made up just like the little white dog in his arms.
* Stalking me with cameras in NYC and US aiports, following me everywhere, like the parade of uniformed soldiers mentioned above.
* Stalking me into worksite restrooms. Very infantile behavior, but nation is saved each time.
* Hacking my iOS device in airports and on one occaision, hacking it through USB rigging on 787 leaving Sao Paulo for US. The Stasi loves to play in airports and airplanes. They’re in-flight repertoire is the best.
* Interferring with job interviews, all part of the decade+ job harassment campaign. The goal is to make this target homeless, of course.
* Watching two goons lurk at my car while I am inside a San Jose CVS in November, 2015 (N. First Street), and filming them as I approached the vehicle. They objected, one saying “You should ask before you film”. I responded: “Filming with a disabled microphone in public areas in CA is legal; stalking is illegal”. Goon’s response, as both he and his partner in crime remained glued to their phones: “stalking… Stalking… STAlking!! STALKING!!!” Statsi Rats have a way of indignantly denying precisely what they are doing in a very loud voice, or via strenuous posts on this website. (Watch. Above and below this post.) This particular organized stalking incident happened the day after I watched an episode of David Simon’s excellent series “Treme” with my wife. I had remarked in a normal voice how savvy David Simon was about organized police stalking in the US — there was a scene showing this same kind of behavior put on by actors playing NO police officers. This is just one of so many “coincidences” indicating my apartments have been bugged for years.
* I personally shut down a San Jose, CA police station at 12pm, during regular business hours when I showed up to report “many crimes”. Just prior to my noticing the hastily scribble sign on the front door of the station — “9-26-2015 Closed” — a rent-a-patriot sauntered up to say “They’re cloOOOoooosed”. Nation Saved! Again!
* And then there are the Stasi’s little helpers like you, getting so, so upset about patriot-goons’ futile attempts to make me shut the fuck up about chicken-shit Americans begging for martial law because they are just so damn scared of the bogey-man.
* Did I mention death threats?
I have more examples of US goon activity. Much more. Fifteen years of this Stasi Goon crap can fill a sizeable book.
It sounds like next generation of “CoinTelPro” and “Operation Chaos” which was outlawed by Congress in the 1970’s. You should report it to the ACLU affiliate in your state ASAP. I think both programs used doctors and other medical personnel (in violation of their Hippocratic Oath).
These same illegal programs were used against a Baptist minister who also preached about James Madison’s blueprint for government – Reverend Martin Luther King, Jr. The ACLU is the real watchdog with these two programs.
For nearly 8 years George W. Bush omitted the proper legal terms “suspects” and “persons of interest” calling them “terrorists” as though they had been convicted in a real court of law.
Bush intentionally misled the American people as though his claims were backed buy solid evidence – he knew that most of his claims were not based on solid evidence but lied to mislead the voters.
@RB: Yes, soon after the December Coup of 2000 ignorant religious zealots (relatives, Bushistas to their rotted Texan cores), with ties to the USAF, labeled me a “terrorist” and the fun and games have not stopped since. I would say characterizing their criminal acts as “attacks on free speech” is a bit of a euphemism, but it certainly is an accurate characterization.
…
@Vivek Jain Dec. 30 2015, 1:46 a.m.: Your post just below, RE: “The Concentric Circles of the Police State” is very interesting on a personal level. I don’t know how the author knows, or if he knows, how the US’ Zersetzung modeled police state’s targeting is structured, but it makes sense. The final statement regarding the “barrier to the linking of private discontent with public action” is something I am familiar with. Roving bands of serial stalkers go to extreme efforts (sometimes even running to their assigned positions) to make sure there is a thick layer of Stasi Freedom Loving Bullshit between me and John & Jane Doe, and millions of tax dollars have been spent interferring in the daily life of this particular terrorist [sic].
…
It’s too late now, but I am compelled to correct so many of the spelling/grammar errors in last night’s rant describing “attacks on my free speech”. Thinking about these experiences annoyed me and I did not proof-read until now.
anethesia -> anesthesia
colonscopy -> colonoscopy
accompanying a State Farm life insurance policy. -> accompanying a State Farm life insurance policy application.
unisison -> unison
Stasi goon squad trained mommy, sister, and brother-in-law -> I omitted a patriotic brother — can’t forget his promise to murder me too.
Then sent large goon follow me -> Then sent large goon to escort me
“would get the package” -> “will get the package”, or verbatim: “Voce vai receber o pacote”. The US Stasi has rented out or shipped goons to the following countries I have visited or lived in: Mexico, Brazil, UK, and China.
Having Stasi Controller Goon watch very carefully as Vietnam War generation rent-girl -> woman yanking out hair and pulling scar was Vietnamese, a Stasi way of making their point.
Abu Graibh -> Abu Ghraib
” I would say characterizing their criminal acts as “attacks on free speech” is a bit of a euphemism, but it certainly is an accurate characterization.”
That bit was intended for GG and VJ.
Glenn writes:
see:
The Rise of the Police State and the Absence of Mass Opposition
http://petras.lahaine.org/?p=1904
excerpt:
Vivek Jain: Excellent information and source. Thank you! Highly recommended read for anyone who gives a dang about the so-called “state-of-affairs” in this country (U.S.), in particular.
The Rise of the Police State and the Absence of Mass Opposition
James Petras and Robin Eastman Abaya :: 07.25.2012 :: United States
[Excerpt]
“The widespread apoliticism of the US public plays into its ignoring the monster that has grown in its midst.”
http://petras.lahaine.org/?p=1904
see as well:
San Bernardino and Government Terror
http://www.blackagendareport.com/san_bernardino_government_terror
excerpt:
Glenn writes:
It is not very helpful to speak of the “US” suffering and ignore class structure and class warfare. The ruling class hasn’t suffered at all. The suffering which “the few” inflict on “the many” is vital to the survival and existence of the ruling class.
so for example, see:
100 years ago: Report shows American capitalism profiting from world war
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2015/12/28/twih-d28.html#100
So what’s the influence of Zionists on not only constructing and inventing and promoting Islamophobia but also these authoritarian domestic policies and aggressive foreign policy?
Fifty Years of Imperial Wars: Results and Perspectives
http://petras.lahaine.org/b2-img/petras_fifty_years_of_imperial_wars.pdf
Afghanistan: Why Civilians are Killed
petras.lahaine.org/?p=1863
The Rise of the Police State and the Absence of Mass Opposition
petras.lahaine.org/?p=1904
The State and Local Bases of Zionist Power in America
http://dissidentvoice.org/2010/09/21433/
Never forget that the ruling classes don’t self-impose any restrictions on the violence and terrorism which they regularly inflict upon the world.
They and the cultural gatekeepers who indoctrinate the masses insist that their violence is legitimate, in the public’s interest–hell, it’s not even violence, we’re told. It’s necessary. It’s for our own good.
When regular folks begin to withdraw their belief and confidence in our oppressors masquerading as our guardians, and see them for what they are — pillagers, global molesters, supreme terrorists in a league of their own — and understand our responsibility to fight back by any and all means necessary — you’ll see the color blanch from the faces of Gingrich, Posner, Clinton, Obama, and the ruling class-serving coxswains in the mass media.
The imperial policymakers, propagandists, warmongers, and technocrats must know that the internet is a vital tool that could be used by the working class to emancipate itself. It’s no wonder that the ruling classes try to control it, to forestall any challenge to the exploitative, unjust, and violent social, political, and economic (dis)order, to identify and punish the subversives, and to declare who is in control and who is not.
Obama signs $1.1 trillion spending package, approves CISA surveillance legislation
Published time: 19 Dec, 2015 01:52
[Excerpt]
President Barack Obama signed a $1.1 trillion spending package which bankrolls the government through next year. While it includes tax breaks for low-wage earners, it also includes a controversial cybersecurity measure slipped in during negotiations.
The omnibus spending package was signed into law on Friday afternoon.
“There’s some things in there that I don’t like, but that’s the nature of legislation and compromise, and I think the system worked,” the president said at his year-end news conference at the White House, reported the Associated Press. “It was a good win.”
(cont.)
https://www.rt.com/usa/326481-obama-signs-budget-cisa-bill/
This from Obama’s buddy, and Samantha Powers’ hubby, Cass R. Sustein & cohort: (Hint … download, go directly to the Conclusion … and you can read for yourselves the corp-gov-nsa’s M.O., as in, modus operandi.)
Conspiracy Theories
Cass R. Sustein & Adrian Vermeule
Harvard Law School
January 15, 2008
http://ssrn.com/abstract=1084585
worthwhile:
Is the N.S.A. Surveillance Threat Real or Imagined?
http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2013/06/09/is-the-nsa-surveillance-threat-real-or-imagined
A New Breed Satellite Terrorism Hardcover – April 20, 2009
by John Hall (Author)
4 out of 5 stars 39 customer reviews
http://www.amazon.com/New-Breed-Satellite-Terrorism/dp/1606939440/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1451438773&sr=1-4&keywords=John+Hall
ATT and DirecTV complete merger forming the world’s largest pay-TV company
Saturday 25th July, 2015
DALLAS, Texas – The second largest wireless carrier in the US, ATT and the largest satellite-TV provider DirecTV, have merged to form the country’s largest pay-TV company in a US $48.5 billion deal.
Ref:
http://m.economictimes.com/news/international/business/att-directv-complete-merger-to-form-biggest-pay-tv-company/articleshow/48211948.cms
Scarred: ‘Come get UR bite’
December 26, 2015 at 2:51 pm
Written by Michael Scott Davidson
http://watchdogsarasota.heraldtribune.com/2015/12/26/scarred-come-get-ur-bite/
[Excerpt: Comment]
William Bill Anderson Licensed Mental Health Counselor at Private Practice
Here is a story that demonstrates how important a free press and access to public information is. Who would have believed that our police would viciously attack citizens for sport? These text records show an unbelievable barbarity and criminal mindset in North Port’s police. And to imagine that higher-ups are not a part of a criminal/thug conspiracy would be incredibly naive. Congratulations, Satasota Herald-Tribune, for this great work, and to Michael Barfield, the ACLU and Andrea Mogensen for any part you may have played in this.
Like · Reply · Mark as spam · 32 · Dec 28, 2015 5:27am · Edited
My comment: Hello? Is it OK to draw attention to this crime? Or should I “Just relax”?
Freedom was worth Nagasaki, we’re told (and Fallujah, and, and, and). Maybe, since it’s OUR freedom that’s at stake, we SHOULD sacrifice one of OUR many cities to freedom, or take the chance, anyway.
We’d come out ahead of the game – yes, even if it were MY city. And ME (then, YOU’d come out ahead).
Glenn,
Off topic, what has become of Barrett Brown? The last letter you published from him was August, I believe – which is getting close to 5 months. Is he OK that you’re aware of?
look harder paco, there’s been great stuff quite recently
That said, this site needs a simple page that lists every article ever posted, with cross referencing by date and author.
It’s ridiculous that nobody programmed that to begin with. Somebody got paid to do this site, right?
I’m not finding anything here or at the Dallas Observer. Do you have a link?
Most recent piece is from December 2.
https://theintercept.com/staff/freebarrett_/
Awesome. Thank you! I couldn’t even find a search function on this site and Google wasn’t turning anything up either.
Truth: a coast-to-coast Stasi-like apparatus that’s also a much greater threat than ISIS
People VS The State
That is the REALITY we live in.
Thanks, Glenn. The authors of the Bill of Rights must have believed that the right to speak freely is so important that they placed it in the very first amendment. Before anyone attempts to throttle what those before us deemed sacrosanct, the enlightened amongst us need to let our lights shine. Speak out, people.
If the US government cannot delete social media accounts by the bad guys – then we know they are in on it all. If you stop the wars, stop the hate, stop the fear – the big war machine and the money train stops.
This is NOT what our Generals and Intelligence agencies want.
@Craig Summers
” He attacked and occupied Kuwait without provocation. ” (Sadaam Hussein)
In case you do not know, Kuwait IS historically part of Iraq. Had always been part of Iraq until England decided to carve it out into two separate entities.
Carving out geographical spaces out of whole integral nations into artificial sub-parts, made it easier to manipulate the parts separately in order to achieve their objectives. And they did to entire continents. Some are openly proposing to do more of the same in Iraq today.
Saddam’s goals were no different than uniting the two Germans after the collapse of the Soviet Union.
On the case of provocation, Saddam, along with many if not all of his fellow citizens, WERE PROVOKED the day their country’s natural part was forcibly excised from it, by greed.
Attempts to rewrite history is worse than the commission of the original sin. Perhaps that is why narratives that twist history through convenient omissions and outright lies by revisionists and reactionaries, are particularly repugnant.
Thank you so much for this much-needed historical context. Craig Summers has a habit of talking out of his ass and spewing garbage completely devoid of facts and history. It’s a habit of racist, bigoted, right-wingers who think they have the right to do whatever criminal, violent shit they want around the world -and especially in the MENA region – to control it.
Where is the evidence for this “part of Iraq” claim? According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabah_I_bin_Jaber the House of Sabah has been ruling Kuwait since 1700; the first one swore loyalty to the Ottoman caliph the way that other Muslims of the time did, which doesn’t create a special link to Iraq. The whole Ottoman Empire was carved up, yes – but it was not very well bound together to start with, and the differences of opinion between Young Turks and various emirs were not something that British diplomats made up.
Pat
“…….Saddam’s goals were no different than uniting the two Germans after the collapse of the Soviet Union……”
Really? The truth of the matter is that Saddam was broke after 10 years of war with Iran. He saw an opportunity to take over the Kuwaiti oil fields to regain some financial stability. This had nothing to do with righting a wrong. It was about opportunity and greed.
Quit providing excuses for the worst dictators on the planet, OK?
Thanks.
Funny that you clowns just luuuved him when he was, during Reagan’s Presidency and with US assistance, using poison gas against Iran…a war crime. Oh, right, I forgot…the USA has declared itself immune from international law.
I can’t deny that Reagan was a war criminal — not just in Iraq, but in Nicaragua. He was a skilled mouthpiece who helped the liars behind the scenes get away with terrible things. However, he is not the entire U.S. The U.S. has a mixture of heroes and villains, of which the Bush dynasty (which puppeteered Reagan) has certainly been one of the villains. It did not help that the UN took no action to condemn the chemical attacks until long after the war, and in fact, not until it needed them to justify another. It is hard to know in such circumstances what to believe (I remember reading a commie newspaper in 1990 about the Taliban atrocities and thinking it was just Soviet propaganda). It also did not help that Iran had no diplomatic relations with the U.S. to make its case, after spectacularly holding an entire embassy hostage, and keeping them until Reagan was elected just in order to get the quid pro quo of arms sales that Bush promised them. (I wonder how the Red Guards were enjoying those weapons when the poison gas started falling … you know, the U.S. isn’t the only country that has ever done a spectacularly counterproductive thing in foreign policy!)
Do some of you realize how logical it is that more and more Americans, especially the younger ones with the baked-in post 9/11 fears and hates, are disenchanted with the democracy thing and are warming up to the idea of overt military rule? Not the creepy, public image wary Stasi-Zersetzung style police state you have now, wrapped up in Hollywood, but full blown, black-shirt martial law with for-profit slave and torture camps.
Ignorant, citizen-cowards produce shitty democracies. That’s the way it works and you should know this by now. But “there you go again”, in November… voting for shit, getting it, then blaming those you voted for. How long will you keep this up? Why don’t you just go for it instead of pretending to be something you’re not? It does make sense, doesn’t it?
But if you do want to stop flirting with martial law and swallow it whole, the largest countries in South America have a warning for you: they have had recent experience with Army rule and are still not ready for the bad old days (so far), even after years of economic decline and in your face corruption that never ends. Sure, you’re exceptional and can handle anything, include a goon’s jackboot up your backside once in awhile. So, what the fuck do you want, and what are you going to do, American? How long are you going to vote yourself down the chute?
“……..Do some of you realize how logical it is that more and more Americans, especially the younger ones with the baked-in post 9/11 fears and hates, are disenchanted with the democracy thing and are warming up to the idea of overt military rule? Not the creepy, public image wary Stasi-Zersetzung style police state you have now, wrapped up in Hollywood, but full blown, black-shirt martial law with for-profit slave and torture camps……”
You even make Donald trump look like a genius.
“… especially the younger ones with the baked-in fears and hates…”
Think about it. Oh, you are CraigSummers. Never mind.
“Do some of you realize how logical it is that more and more Americans, especially the younger ones…”
Model post here on how to lose your Intercept readership in less than a dozen words:
1 Be condescending to your fellow readers
2. Act like, in the face of opposing polling and electoral evidence, like younger people are obviously more gullible than old people.
(meant to change that to ‘less than two dozen words’) Since I had to come back to fix that, I might as well add that the post becomes considerably more condescending as it goes on.
Dude, take it to Yahoo News already. When CraigSummers sounds more reasonable than you, you’re in trouble.
1. Be condescending…
You? A peer? Losing my readership? I have never been interested in Americans’ popularity contests.
2. Act like, in the face of opposing polling and electoral “evidence”?
Think about it what you just said. Ok, don’t think about it.
The ANSWER to YouTube lectures and sermons of Anwar al-Awlaki, and the many other Islamic clerics is to simply, FREE SPEECH from us! That is, speak up and call a spade a spade at every turn! That is, call them out on their Anti-Freedom, pro-Death cult. The ANSWER to Islam, is NOT LESS Freedom of Speech, but MORE OF IT. The ANSWER to ISLAM is what they fear most, SATIRE and LAUGHTER and plenty of DISRESPECT. As in, you believe what? LMAO. You mean you follow and copy the life of a man who was a murderer, a rapist, a pedophile, a jihadist ??? You mean you believe an illiterate man miraculously translated perfectly “the word of Allah” from an angel “perfectly” and wrote it all down in the “perfect book”? LMAO. Yes, the answer to their Islamic craziness is to call them out on it. The ANSWER is not “RESPECT”, but plenty of DISRESPECT. The ANSWER is MORE FREE SPEECH and preferably with lots of SATIRE, lots of LAUGHTER and plenty of in your face DISRESPECT. You know, the kind of disrespect that we give racist KKK pukes. Sure, we let them spot their sad ideas, and then we LAUGH OUT LOUD and give them plenty of DISRESPECT. And just like the KKK racists, should they dare move an inch to use violence or stop our free speech, we SHUT THEM DOWN and LOCK THEM UP. Libertarians who love freedom so dearly, and despise tyranny, should be the first to shout these Islamic pukes down. Ask yourself, have you drawn a funny picture of Mohammad lately? If you never have, they have won. (Cause you know drawing a funny picture of Christ doesn’t make you a brave champion of free speech, right?)
The ANSWER to Islam, is NOT LESS Freedom of Speech, but MORE OF IT. The ANSWER to ISLAM is what they fear most, SATIRE and LAUGHTER and plenty of DISRESPECT.
The answer to ignorant bigots like you is: Take your stupidity and viciousness, fold it until it is all corners, and shove it up your ass.
You’re free to say what you wish, of course, but you shouldn’t imagine that some speech won’t provoke unpleasant consequences — some of which may well be suffered by people not as nasty and hateful as you.
Can you tell me WHEN the magic immortality potion gets poured on a religious masterpiece? I mean, America has a perfectly good alternative to Muhammad – guy by the name of Charlie Manson. He has his own plan for the Healter Skelter Apocalypse, his followers say he brought a dead bird back to life, and (just like Muhammad) people were willing to kill for him out of their belief. So if a schoolteacher says that Manson was really just a maniac with no particular plan at all, should he be fired for insulting OUR prophet, and for degrading the beliefs of the cadre of followers who are probably still camped out near some bottomless pit near Death Valley, patiently biding their time for the end of days?
Now I want to say this loud, and I want to say it clear: I have more respect for Charlie Manson than for Muhammad. I mean, he killed fewer people, he sung a better record album than Muhammad wrote a book (though to be honest neither can be tolerated for long), he never deflowered little girls. I’m sorry if that makes me bigoted because I prefer a no-good white American over an exotic Arabian, despite the universal belief among some that the former race is inherently inferior. I will evaluate BOTH authors’ ideas as I see fit, and as it happens, I see fit to reject them. And so Treg4RonPaul has my vote of support, even if his name references a Libertarianism so threadbare of ideas it can’t even mention intellectual property in its party platform.
“Can you tell me WHEN the magic immortality potion gets poured on a religious masterpiece?””
Huh? Looks as though we have yet another in the infinitely-long line of Internet posters with basic reading comprehension problems.
“Now I want to say this loud, and I want to say it clear: I have more respect for Charlie Manson than for Muhammad [or _____ (insert Jesus or any cherished/worshiped by others god/prophet/idea/principles, etc.].”
I repeat: You’re free to say what you wish, of course, but you shouldn’t imagine that some speech won’t provoke unpleasant consequences — some of which may well be suffered by people not as nasty and hateful as you.
Neville Chamberlain would be ashamed of this one. You’re telling me that we should all make out like Islam was founded by a nice guy, in the hope that they will kill somewhat fewer people. And failure to do so makes us “ignorant bigots”!
No. This is not how we act. We say what we believe, we try to stop terrorists as best we are able without giving up our freedoms or spending too much, and when some of us die, we bury them with high hopes for their place in heaven, and go on. There is no reason why we have to leave all the faith to those who decapitate people with little knives; there’s some left over for the rest of us.
“You’re telling me that we should all make out like Islam was founded by a nice guy, in the hope that they will kill somewhat fewer people.”
Nope. I’m telling you that, if you mock, insult, taunt and attack people’s most cherished beliefs and understandings, you should expect that some of them (regardless of faith, ideology, etc.) are very likely to respond in unpleasant, unwelcome, and sometimes violent ways. And it won’t make a bit of difference to the offended and enraged that you have a right to such speech (BTW, depending upon the context and the exact content of the speech, you may have no such right). It has always been thus and I expect it will be endless and until human nature evolves to a very different form.
You seem to reserve most of your hatred for Muslims (whom you appear to hold responsible for the actions of a very few of their co-religionists), so I suspect that, rather than being a free speech advocate, you’re just a nasty Islamophobe.
I don’t know where you live, but I suggest you go down to your nearest masjid (mosque), next Friday, and practice the speech you promote here face-to-face. The folks there will probably either ignore you or, if you go too far, just call the police, but:
If one or two of them slap you silly, I shall (a) fully support appropriate assault charges against the assailants; and (b) send a note of support and a nice donation to the masjid’s current charity campaign (there is almost always one in progress).
I don’t hate Muslims — I simply am convinced that Islam is wrong, and has no useful guidance to offer. Saying it is wrong is not a way to hurt Muslims, but is intended to help them. I do not want to see the rights of Muslims – or the rest of us – curtailed; therefore I am agreeable to measures meant to protect the U.S. by changing our immigration priorities in a way that reduces immigration from countries with an Islamic terrorist problem. I am also agreeable to measures meant to protect the U.S. economically, such as harshly taxing both import and export of fossil fuels in order to effectively separate and protect the domestic marketplace from Middle East affairs and the OPEC cartel. I understand such measures lack ideological purity, but that level of purity is not to be found in the world we live in – if our borders were wide open to every European and Canadian who wanted to come, and if we could go the other way as freely, then you could talk to me about opening them to Islamic countries with very different political cultures. But when they’re not, how could I pass over any single Canadian boy in favor of someone who comes from a country where there is literally no sane faction, just ISIS and Assad loyalists and some stray Turkmens and, most hopefully, a few Kurdish allies at one fringe we’re internationally obligated to regard as terrorists?
The Christians say to love the sinner, hate the sin; I’m thinking love Muslims, but hate Islam. I don’t want to see them the targets of injustice and mob violence. I understand we all believe some stupid things – the fact they believe something wrong is only proof they should be engaged in frank (and “offensive”) conversation now and then. I’d do no less for believers in the War on Drugs, which is virtually equal in idiocy.
Your reference to physical confrontation is peculiar. If you want to avoid having people regard them as terrorists, why try to use some hypothetical confrontation in which they would hurt someone as a way of “proving” that their beliefs are beyond criticism?
It was Donald Trump who proposed that we kill the families of terrorists, because that’s the only thing that terrorists care for.
@Jeff Barge –
Oh yeah, he gets a free pass for his bile, but anyone else?
We need to all stand firm for the First Amendment!
Alano
“……you will keep lying to yourselves and those around you in order to not have to face the atrocities that have been carried by the U.S. in your name for the last 70 years, including obliterating secular Muslim countries that were making huge strides in so many areas like health, education, and women’s rights. Iraq alone was a secular state with one of the highest literacy & college attendance rates in the world (with half its university students being women. It also had one of the best healthcare systems……”
Anyone who defends the murderous regime of Saddam Hussein is displaying willful blindness (and ignorance) to the atrocities carried out by Saddam. He was responsible for the deaths of perhaps 2 million people or more. He slaughtered the Shia and Kurds during their rebellion in 1991 and used WMDs on the Kurds and Iranians. He attacked and occupied Kuwait without provocation. He invaded Iran because he feared the Shia revolution in Iran was being spread to Iraq. He launched missiles capable of carrying chemical weapons at Israel – also unprovoked – while supporting terrorism against the Jewish state. He ran a classic police state without any elections.
“…….Yes, the Baathist government was terrible for many reasons, but the US didn’t seem to give a shit when it overthrew Iraq’s popular, secular, democratically-elected PM before the Baathists took power…..”
You’ll need some sources on this one. The US clearly knew about the coup, but did not participate in the overthrow of the government in Iraq.
“…… But your murderous country decided to impose illegal, genocidal sanctions (both UN heads who oversaw this in Iraq resigned and called the sanctions “genocidal”) which killed half a million babies and children…..”
Blame it on the one responsible – Saddam Hussein. He is the one that invaded Kuwait. Saddam is the one that refused to cooperate with the UN weapons inspectors. Saddam used the oil for food program to line his own pockets while the Iraqi people suffered; thus, it is the fault of Saddam.
“…..In Afghanistan in the 80s, which was also secular and making similar progress….”
The Russians illegally invaded Afghanistan resulting in millions of refugees and two million deaths. That was strictly the fault of the Russians who did not invade for women’s rights.
“……the murderous US armed the religious-fanataic Muhajadeens (later to become the Taliban) and called its leader (Osama Bin Laden) a “hero” and “freedom fighter.”…..”
That is false. The Taliban – for the most part – came out of the refugee camps in Pakistan created by the Russian invasion. Most NEVER fought the Russians. I doubt the US ever called Bin Laden a freedom fighter, but in this case he actually was helping to oust the Russian dogs from Afghanistan.
“……This was all solely to kick the Russians out…..”
You were bound to get something right.
“…….The U.S. didn’t give a rat’s ass about Afghans or what they wanted or needed…..”
Granted, but you can just as easily conclude that neither did the Russians. This was solely about extending the Russian area of influence (like in Ukraine) – only it backfired (like in Ukraine).
“……Like Craig, you are ignorant and delusional……”
Fine, but you are a total fucking idiot.
Let’s not forget that the war with Iran was conducted with the full encouragement and material aid of the US, including but not limited to chemical weapons technology. And then there was the infamous gaffe of GHW Bush’s hand-picked ambassador, April Glaspie (https://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/ARTICLE5/april.html) green lighting the invasion of Kuwait.
Also, I am wondering where you got the 2 million number from. Historical records are hazy, indicating something like 1.25 – 1.5 million deaths in the Iran Iraq war, and it is easy to envison another quarter million in internal deaths. But it is really unfair to blame Saddam entirely for the loss of life fighting a proxy war for the US, don’t you think?
Finally there is the Afghanistan business. The US did in fact help bin Laden and the Mujahideen because we wanted the USSR to have its own Viet Nam; the Taliban came much later as you say, and the reason we invaded was ostensibly because the Taliban did not want to turn the al Qaeda leaders over to us. By making war against them, we solidified their support for al Qaeda.
24b4Jeff
“……..Let’s not forget that the war with Iran was conducted with the full encouragement and material aid of the US, including but not limited to chemical weapons technology. And then there was the infamous gaffe of GHW Bush’s hand-picked ambassador, April Glaspie (https://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/ARTICLE5/april.html) green lighting the invasion of Kuwait…..”
But Saddam invaded Iran on his own initiative, and Gillespie never green-lighted anything. That is just used by folks who want to believe that the US is at fault for everything.
“……By making war against them, we solidified their support for al Qaeda……”
Not really. Their partnership was never broken after 911 (Newsweek):
“…….The Afghan Taliban never publicly broke with Al Qaeda after 9/11, but they rarely mentioned their decades-old partnership. The major exception was when Osama bin Laden was killed in Pakistan in 2011 by U.S. SEALs—then, the Taliban praised bin Laden as a hero of the Afghan jihad…….Al Qaeda in contrast always reaffirmed its loyalty to the Taliban, which had harbored it before and after 9/11. Without the Taliban safe haven before 9/11, the attacks would never have occurred; Al Qaeda needed its Afghan sanctuary. Bin Laden’s son Hamza last week reaffirmed his loyalty to the Taliban in his first ever audio tape for Al Qaeda…..”
“But Saddam invaded Iran on his own initiative, and Gillespie never green-lighted anything. That is just used by folks who want to believe that the US is at fault for everything.”
Actually, there was no Gillespie. The name is Glaspie. And what she green-lighted was Saddam’s invasion of Kuwait that wasthe basis for the first Gulf War.
That is a FACT, and if you dispute this, you show yourself to be a person that HATES TRUTH.
Moreover, another FACT is that the U.S. provided Saddam with intelligence and assistance during the 80’s after he had started a war with Iran.
Here are two FACTS you cannot deny, Summers (well, knowing you, you can deny them, and actually might do so, but then it will just further underscore how dishonest you are.)
1. The U.S. supplied Saddam with intelligence and other assistance after he initiated a war with Iran during the 1980s. In other words, the U.S. supported Saddam in his war with Iran.
2. U.S. State Department official April Glaspie (not Gillespie, idiot) gave Saddam the go-ahead to invade Kuwait, before he ended up doing so. This invasion provided the rationale for the United States to attack Iraq during the first Gulf War.
It makes you wonder if any Republican has ever read the Constitution or even comprehended what they read ! ! !
“Republican”….like Cass Sunstein?
Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and oppression of body and mind will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day.
Thomas Jefferson
The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits..
Albert Einstein-
“Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.” — George Washington
Oh yeah, exactly. I am so sick of liberals who pretend that the Democratic Party has not been humping this stuff just as hard as the Republicans.
The worst liberals to me are those who pretended to care about civil liberties and the expansion of American empire for precisely as long as George W. Bush was president. The 2012 election was especially depressing for me, finding out how many friends of mine were simply in it for the partisan point-scoring, and were more than happy to drop it so long as they had an imaginary friend in the White House.
Sunstein is one of the President’s favorite intellectuals.
It may come as a shock to you that most college-educated people have virtually no informed knowledge about the contents of the Constitution or its understood intentions and meaning, when founded. What little they do know is frequently wrong.
This isn’t new. A half-century ago, a large sample of ordinary Americans were presented with the Bill of Rights and asked if they considered the (unlabeled) document radical and subversive. While a lot of people today wouldn’t even understand the question, a considerable majority back then agreed that it was.
And, of course, they were exactly right.
The Constitution IS is a radical document which undermines use of arbitrary powers which every government yearns to possess. Every government, without exception.
In its stipulations of basic liberties, the Bill of Rights is specifically radical, providing (theoretical) limitations on government abuse — which Federalists hated. Hamilton was likely the worst of the lot.
From the time it was adopted, the Constitution has been systematically domesticated by government courts and politicians on the make. Now the Constitution will happily wag its tail and bark only on command. So whether people literally know what’s inside it is pretty much a moot point since the 30s.
Garet Garrett’s “The Revolution Was” is the definitive narrative of that revolutionary takeover of the American state by artfully replacing the meaning of written words without replacing them with others. (He makes reference to similar observations by Cicero, who knew a little something about how republics are systematically corrupted.)
So who really cares today what the Constitution actually says? Democrats? Republicans? Mostly not. And those who actually do are regarded as fringe nutters whose views are seriously out of fashion. As they surely are.
Why would any true loyal Americans, be they Democrat or Republican, Male or Female, White,Black,Hispanic or other, vote for a Democrat or a Republican when both .parties have shown their willingness to subvert the Constitution, our Civil Liberties, and our National Sovereignty through the TPP (The Trans Pacific Partnership) and have been doing so for decades & the Governments own records have proven this to be true ! We are being sold out by the Democrats & Republicans ! It now has become a choice between Fascism or Liberty & Fascism is winning !
Both parties have been complicit in this criminal activity. Some will say they don’t want to waste their vote, but you are already wasting your vote on Democrats & Republicans because they are the ones who have already betrayed us ! This should be a joint effort on the part of all Americans, Democrats,Republicans & Independent voters ! Organize now before its to late ! Your liberty is at stake and that of your children & grandchildren !
We get the Government we deserve, and nothing will change until we stop electing Democrats & Republicans after all they are the ones subverting the Constitution, & they must be held to account both politically & legally !
Both parties are owned by corporate America, two sides of the same coin ! Wise up America .
No more lies, excuses, rationalizations,or justifications, the public needs to hold these officials to account to the fullest extent of the law under Title 18 sec. 241 & 242 (Google it), so any future traitors will know there will be consequences to such behavior.
Unaccountable power is absolute power, & is absolutely corrupt !
As Mr. Snowden said the Politicians are afraid of you ! Now is the time exercise you power, you may not get another chance !
REMEMBER: POLITICIANS, BUREAUCRATS AND DIAPERS SHOULD BE CHANGED OFTEN AND FOR THE SAME REASON.
Some words of true Patriots are as follows, as opposed to the words of false flag patriotism of bought & paid for professional politicians of today.
He that is of the opinion money will do everything may well be suspected of doing everything for money.
Benjamin Franklin
He that is good for making excuses is seldom good for anything else.
Benjamin Franklin
Experience hath shown, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.
Thomas Jefferson
Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add ‘within the limits of the law’ because law is often but the tyrant’s will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.
Thomas Jefferson
Tyranny is defined as that which is legal for the government but illegal for the citizenry.”
Thomas Jefferson.
“But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security,”
Thomas Jefferson wrote this in the Declaration of Independence .
In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself.
James Madison
Liberty may be endangered by the abuse of liberty, but also by the abuse of power.
James Madison
The liberties of a people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them.
Patrick Henry
“We the People are the rightful masters of BOTH Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution”
Abraham Lincoln
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
Abraham Lincoln
We should not forget the warning of President Eisenhower .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLqWfWxqh_0
The NSA is controlled & operated by the DOD & the MIC (Military Industrial Complex) Private Corporations.
“The very word “secrecy” is repugnant in a free and open society; and we are as a people inherently and historically opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths and secret proceedings. We decided long ago that the dangers of excessive and unwarranted concealment of pertinent facts far outweighed the dangers which are cited to justify it.”
President John F. Kennedy
Waldorf-Astoria Hotel
April 27, 1961
As is said in the law, falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus. (“False in one thing, false in all things” is an instruction given to jurors: if they find that a witness lied about an important matter, they are entitled to ignore everything else that witness said.) The Government has been lieing to the American public for decades !
As a reminder Hermann Goering said at the Nuremberg Trials .
“The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.”
“Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power.”
Benito Mussolini
Time to start removing the corporate Congress from office & defunding the NSA & the Police Surveillance state, to pre 9-11 levels & force them to comply with the law & impose jail time for non compliance under USC Title 18 Sec. 241 & 242 (Google it) .
Time to send a message to Democrats & Republicans that they can’t ignore & will understand !
Only after the members of our 3 branches of Government, both Republicans & Democrats who conspired in this criminal conspiracy & violated the Constitution are prosecuted, should Mr. Snowden be charged with a crime. Prosecute those who broke the law first, in chronological order, then the Government can get around to Mr Snowden .
The short version of the above is as follows:
Any Government or Party that doesn’t abide by the Constitution does not deserve our respect or support ! ! ! They are traitors !
Disclaimer: Be advised it is possible, that this communication is being monitored by the National Security Agency or GCHQ. I neither condone or support any such policy, by any Government authority or third party that does not comply, as stipulated by the 4th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.
Darn! They however are very careful at choosing which country should be bombed next. I can’t wait for Trump to become our next glorious U.S. president
USG has been playing that utterly futile game for a long time. They care not merely about what people say about what they do, not about what they do, but that anything about their matters are being said at all (”legal interpretations”).
What now they are not going to hate us since we don’t have free speech anymore? How boring!
Glenn, as you should well know, it is not an exaggeration at all. You, for some reasons, are putting it mildly when you choose to call it “cognitive infiltration” when I would outrightly call it Zetsetzung made in U.S.A.
Glenn, you write as this guy boxes
// __ GUILLERMO RIGONDEAUX ? HIGHLIGHTS HD 2015
youtube.com/watch?v=sD-jHrg_TRY
First you own the ground based on excellent foot work, knowing well your enemy and dodging techniques, then your most skilled strategy is a well-timed and measured counter attack, but as it happened to that guy you are so good that you are out of your league and are spoiling the sport to everyone. They are even pretty much suspending this guy out of boxing for being so good that he has no opponents ;-)
RCL
I am a Christian and I fully support a person’s right to talk as much trash as they care to about my religion that is their right. Great speakers and writers can not be constrained by polite and non-confrontational speech….quite the opposite! Those who are so thin skinned that they would have us gagged,silenced and banned should be deported to a country like Saudi Arabia, where they have no rights! So go ahead and whine and cry we will not be silenced! Submitted by “The Resistance”
Excellent article….I do find it encouraging how often both the principled AND practical thing to do is the same thing — in this case, defend the 1st amendment — and how those who counsel bad actions are mistaken ethically, morally and practically.
Granted they get their way a lot of the time, but not permanently – they can be fought, and they don’t always win.
It is true (and even marvelously great, I would say!) that the way you choose (or don’t) to talk about some matter won’t alter the alignment of stars in the Universe. But I wonder if you notice that your reaction to il Duce’s comments, actually proves his point. If it doesn’t matter “if you say ‘dick’ all day”, then why do those “responsible” individuals care about censorship? Why did Glenn and Laura Poitras exile themselves overseas, why is Snowden in Moscow, Assange still in the Ecuadorian Embassy in London …
There is an essential difference between matters relating to the physical sciences and “I say so”, “make believe” kinds of things such as art, religion and politics. Lies and manipulations have such an incredibly short half life when it comes to scientific and technical matters that in those cultures people don’t even bother to consciously, purposely lie. When it comes to us, people, you can convince anyone of pretty much anything, because “it is all in our minds”. That is why our only way out of madness is at least being aware of the importance of free speech, since when it comes to “make believe”, blah-blah kinds of matters there is no way to factually verify anything, at least people should be able to openly listen to lies and make their own judgments expressly of not.
A good example is that gringos actually believe the underlying tenets of Reagan “Soviet” jokes
// __ Reagan tells Soviet jokes
~
youtube.com/watch?v=mN3z3eSVG7A
~
Gringos are not out of their minds they know well to change their rhetoric when it comes to Russia and China and their newspeak has changed quite a bit since Snowden’s revelations, even though they seem to have some sort of collective amnesia. They seem to have forgotten how their media couldn’t stop talking about people being watched in places such as East Germany, Russia and China, even making fun of those “freedom-hating” idiots …
We tend to believe that “if you say ‘dick’ all day …” fallacy to some extent. Once I heard Glenn (someone whose moral principles and intellect I respect) talking about “Adamizations” in politics (which I thought and think to be possible with matters somehow relating to the physical sciences) …
// __ With Liberty and Justice for Some: How the Law Is Used to Destroy Equality and Protect the Powerful
amazon.com/gp/product/1250013836
// __ Glenn Greenwald at Yale Law School – “With Liberty and Justice for Some”
youtube.com/watch?v=MRiQ0SGJ_98
He advances a premise which I think is not only, not falsifiable in any way, but also fallacious. He said that Pres. Roosevelt was a good president because he protected the people against big businesses and politicians, but I think he is selectively forgetting that Pres. Roosevelt was the one that drove the Monroe doctrine to its ultimate consequences creating great many problems of all kinds for Latin American people. You cannot be “‘good daddy’ at home” and crassly abuse other people abroad so Roosevelt was also part of the game.
RCL
Personally, and I speak only for myself here, I think the US constitution is a royal pain in the ass… whether it be the most abused right to bear arms (2nd Amendment) or the license to say virtually any grotesque crap you like (1st Amendment. I like the fact that in Germany Holocaust denial is a criminal offence.. I like that in the UK incitement to racial hatred is a criminal offence. The problem with America is lack of nuance… It doesn’t and never has properly understood, the social contract, the rule of law and most importantly the difference between freedom and license or as we say in the UK… licence… Setting moderate limits on what can be said, it seems to me is no more irresponsible than all agreeing which side of the road you want to drive on… over the pond there in the US you have people effectively spouting fascism running to become President. You have illegal detentions and drone murder and much much more. You are, in short, a deeply authoritarian country for all your BS about freedom of speech. Worse things happen at sea than well-argued, legal limits on utterly abusing the right to speak your mind.
This was written for people with your mentality.
And I thank you for doing so as well as a giant thank you for continuing to show the world what journalism looks like.
I’m not sure that I’m any happier to be described as “people with your mentality” than your unreasonable comparison to the arrest of poets by despots, to perfectly sound and stable established laws in Europe that have done more good than harm. There are always going to be threats to genuine freedom of speech and human rights in general which require protection and safeguards and I’m happy that journalists like yourself are all over that, but as a conservative friend wryly said to me once… There are few things more illiberal than a liberal with the bit of truth between their teeth. I’m simply saying the First Amendment is a bit overrated, not that we don’t require human rights and civil liberties.
@Trojan Horse: I tend to agree with you. What, for instance, does it tell us about the mentality of the Framers of the Constitution that the bill of rights was added as an afterthought? Or that only one gender was mentioned? The document was outdated almost from the moment it was written; none of those geniuses apparently had even heard of much less read Rousseau or Kant. No, instead, they worshiped Locke as though he were some god, though the man’s main effort in life was to provide a moral justification for the appropriation (legalese for ”stealing”) of Native Americans’ land.
That having been said, I am not in favor of updating it at this time. Just look at the cast of characters who would comprise a Constitutional Convention! Esteemed senators like Diane Feinstein and Ted Cruz, Supreme Court Justices like Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas. It makes one’s blood run cold just to contemplate it.
“those geniuses apparently had even heard of much less read Rousseau or Kant”
The depth and value of an intellectual concept is not measured by the list of references that accompany it! The content of the 1st Amendment is deep without the need to reference Kant, Rousseau, or others.
“moral justification for the appropriation (legalese for ”stealing”) of Native Americans’ land”
Locke’s theories and justifications leave a lot to be desired. This says nothing about the value of the 1st Amend.
@ 24b4Jeff
I would agree with that in a very tightly cabined way. I’d agree the “mentality” of the framers was wrong in many respects but necessarily product of their time. Not saying that excuses their shortsightedness, but it is fair to argue that not many, and not any significant organized political constituency in their society at the time, had a expansive and “enlightened” understanding of “human rights”.
But many things they got exactly right in balancing liberty of the individual while controlling the power and actions of elected officials and the state. But I’d agree some Amendments need to be revisited, others don’t, and still others need to be added.
I’d argue 1st and 4th are as near perfect as humans can conceive. The 2nd needs to be altered as it is historically debatable and not conducive to social harmony and well-being for there to be so many hand guns and military type rifles in circulation. Nevertheless I think instead of limiting that currently understood right in a fundamental way, ammunition should be strictly regulated, all gun owners should have to purchase private liability insurance (as we do for car ownership), all guns must be stored and transported with locks (under civil penalty or loss of ability to own guns), strict background checks for ownership, sale and resale, and the exact number and location of all guns in private hands should be part of a state registry. Owning weapons of death should be a privilege not a right in America or any civilized country.
The 5th Amendment only needs tinkering with regard to the secrecy of grand jury process and taken out of hands of prosecutors in case of alleged police criminality or misconduct–too much conflict of interest. Eminent domain should be altered, contrary to current jurisprudence in Kelo vs. City of New London, that eminent domain powers can only be exercised by the state and only directly for a public works project not private development.
6th is fine as written.
7th only needs to be tinkered with to include a prohibition against any forced arbitration clause being imposed on any citizen as it fundamentally undermines right to a jury trial.
8th is generally fine but needs to be rewritten to expressly exclude torture (to include extended solitary confinement) and the death penalty.
9th and 10th are fine but largely irrelevant.
The 11th should be abolished as there should be no such thing as “sovereign immunity” in a purported land adhering to the “rule of law” where no man or entity is above or beyond the rule of law.
12th-17th and 19th are near perfect. However, a new amendment needs to be added to make House of Representatives proportional representation to population (say a seat for every 50,000 voters) and an absolute prohibition on excluding people from being an elected by virtue of antiquated ideas of “party” affiliation on public ballots.
The rest are basically fine except Washington DC needs to be made a state and its citizens entitled to full and equal representation in both House and Senate.
And the 26th should be changed to permit 17 year-olds to vote. If you are old enough to serve in the US military you should be old enough to vote on the individuals who determine military policy.
And there should be one other addition, however worded, that prohibits discrimination in all public accommodations, jobs and salary, military service etc. etc. on the basis of gender or gender identity, sexual orientation, national origin, ethnicity, etc. (i.e. “immutable traits”) but I’m conflicted re: similar protections for “religious belief” as it is just that–a person’s belief. Because I’m not sure what other purely subjective beliefs get similar protection under secular law.
Rather than getting into a debate about fine points, may I simply say that the failure to address the commons needs to be remedied (the idea being that the land, the air and the water belong to all, and nobody has the right to despoil them), and somehow the idea of being an individual has to be linked to being based on DNA. But I stand firm in my belief that it would be suicidal to try changing the document in these times.
Funny how you left out the 16th Amendment, to which, is the main reason this country is in the trouble it’s in. UN-constrained power to spend taxes by virtue of debt, that won’t be collected for 100 yrs. = Empire building.
@24b4Jeff –
“…they worshiped Locke as though he were some god, though the man’s main effort in life was to provide a moral justification for the appropriation (legalese for ”stealing”) of Native Americans’ land.” Really? I’ve been reading some of his quotes (in preparing my “Project Hilkiah” but haven’t seen that. Can you give a little more detail, please?
Of course, the Constitution isn’t perfect (it allowed for slavery to continue, as an egregious example). From what I understand, the Bill of Rights was an “afterthought” maybe, but one that came out of the discussions about ratification of the Constitution. And of course, the continuing absence of the Equal Rights Amendment is a problem, too!
But like you, I don’t think a Constitutional Convention would be a good idea… it would be way to unpredictable. Who knows WHAT might result!
@24b4Jeff – I agree – We live in graceless times and probably not the best time for nuanced reforms. Two cheers for Democracy and also perhaps the US constitution? :)
“Setting moderate limits on what can be said”
I cannot trust you to set those “moderate” limits!
The very abuses you mention flow from “moderate” limits – albeit self-imposed!
One might think from reading your post that nobody in the UK is publicly fascist…..do you actually pay attention to the things David Cameron, your prime minister, actually says to the press?
Or that there are no illegal detentions in the UK, or that you don’t live in a deeply authoritarian country.
Your curbs on free speech in the UK don’t prevent what you are, and ultimately they will be useful for making it much worse.
The country itself isn’t authoritarian – the UK Government voted in by a minority of the electorate is currently sitting well to the right of the country in general, accepted- but still a respectable degree left of the present crop of characters vying to out-shock each other for populist policies in the republican race to the bottom. I just don’t think Europe really needs to take constitutional lessons from the US on their not so amazing First and Second Amendments
Oh, yes…the UK and its lovely libel law, which benefits the powerful only. AND, who decides what is free speech? Cameron? Muroch?
so sunstein is married to samantha “john bolton in drag” power. funny how two utterly repulsive people can gravitate toward each other. i really hope they aren’t breeding.
makes sense, though – he sees a “responsibility to protect” us common folk from those scary ideas he doesn’t approve of. he and his ilk seem to think the west’s occasional “success” at turning second- and third-world countries into failed states means he can “bomb” ideas and install…ontological puppet regimes?
this wouldn’t even merit discussion in a rational culture – one or two has-beens spouting opinions that are moronic trolling at best. sadly we have to deal with the “think tank op-ed tyranny” of d.c. where such spew is taken as prima facie “realpolitik”.
@ the pair
Yeah Samantha Power is a real piece of work.
You should have seen Rachel Maddow fawning all over her and gushing last week on the TRMS while lobbing softball crap at her. I was seriously embarrassed for Rachel Maddow.
Short cut to understanding what Ms., ahem, Power is all about:
http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2014/0411/ny_e_kisspowmom_300x200.jpg
Well done. This should be brought to the attention of Nate, below.
But Nate will probably object saying something like, “What’s wrong with hanging out with Henry Kissinger?”
Yeah, what a heap of trash. What exactly has she done anyways!?
http://www.pulitzer.org/works/2003-General-Nonfiction
http://www.journalism.columbia.edu/page/447-2003-lukas-prize-winners/188
A journalist and advocate that focused on increasing public awareness of genocide and human rights abuses Retch!! How dare she join the Obama administration, what a hack!!
And just to show how enlightened we all are, let’s make fun of her appearance and choice of spouse.
@ Nate
I neither criticized her appearance nor her choice of spouse. And I’m well aware of her CV and professional accomplishments.
And while her writing on the topics of genocide and human rights abuses have been compelling at times, I generally don’t put much stock in someone who fosters both genocide and human rights abuses by militarily intervening in someplace like Libya.
For what it’s worth, I value my own opinion, Howard Zinn’s and others on the merits of Samantha Power’s policy preferences. Some I agree with (Israel although she flip-flopped at her confirmation hearing), and some I don’t (Libya, not believing US needs UN Security Counsel authorization to go around invading nations, Iran which she was/is horribly wrong about, torture at Abu Ghraib was a “mistake”, . . . ).
And given she’s pals with the likes of Madeleine Albright and worked for Zbigniew Brzezinski (although I’ll concede there are policies he advocated for with which I agree but on balance he’s a very mixed bag), so I put very little stock in what Samantha Power says or does policy-wise on almost any topic.
Very precise summary of a significantly unhinged lady.
As usual, Glenn makes the case. Those who seek to abridge Freedom of Speech espouse the most dangerous speech of all.
It’s disturbing that free speech seem under attack on several fronts from disparate factions. Have to wonder if the First Amendment were put to a popular vote, would it survive?
Chomsky was right when he said words to the effect that if you don’t support free speech for the most reviled people and expression, you don’t support it at all.
Is showing video of intentionally committed war crimes for the purpose of recruitment of other nations’ citizens and the incitement of violence considered “protected free speech”?
Please sir, do enlighten us all with some evidence. Surely there are specific examples you can provide involving terrorist recruitment. Maybe then explain why the prohibition of child pornography isn’t also crushing our collective first amendment rights. Or why I can’t buy meth on Twitter unabated. Or how come I cannot make specific threats of violence against other individuals without consequence.
Why is the prohibition of these criminal acts NOT crushing our freedom of speech, but efforts to address terrorist incitement is treated as another slippery slope to authoritarianism?
Furthermore, at what point does terrorist incitement become imminent? Is it when the underwear bomber boards the plane? Is it when Awlaki left ungoverned territory on his own terms, or when we violate terms of agreement with Yemen about putting boots on the ground and conduct an operation that places the risk on our soldiers? If we went on a capture mission that catastrophically failed, would Awlaki then be fair game? Or does Awlaki get an iron dome around him only because of his citizenship status?
One pant leg is wet and you’re not holding a beverage.
Wow, I’ve earned a troll with my namesake!?
Lucky me!
“Trying to dictate which views can and cannot be expressed on the internet, aside from being futile, is the modern-day hallmark of an authoritarian.”
This is the list of countries that have dictated which views that can and cannot be expressed on the Internet, newspapers, radios….:
South Africa, Germany, Brazil, Canada, Finland, Ireland, Island, Sweden, Switzerland.
These countries have had limitations on free speech for years. Can anybody tell me which one of these countries are run by an authoritarian regime?
You have it backwards. Please show us the list of countries run by authoritarian regimes that don’t dictate which views can and cannot be expressed on the internet, newspapers, and radios.
Not only Lula has it backwards, Lula also forwards the typical facile argument.
Lula, which specific limit on free speech in Finland contravenes the constitutional guarantees in Finland?
“(Sunstein previously proposed that the U.S. Government “cognitively infiltrate” the internet by sending teams of covert agents into “chat rooms, online social networks, or even real-space groups” to discredit what he regards as false conspiracy theories,…)”
Funny how this ‘anti-conspiracy theory’ effort came into full fruition not long after 9/11…
Hypnotized -or- Free for All
If you believe that propaganda and advertising controls people, then there is really no reason for free speech–or democracy for that matter. Free speech, free will and democracy are inextricably tied. It is likely they are all the same thing.
Some people see free will as a zero sum game. The more I take from you, the more I have for myself. This is the hypnotist’s view of the world. Free will can only be expressed by controlling other people.
The idea that money controls politics, not as bribes, but as currency to buy propaganda, which then controls the voters, is a wonderful expression of this idea. People don’t disagree with me, they are hypnotized by my enemies into opposing me. People don’t agree with me, they are simply under my spell.
Life becomes a war between hypnotists with creepy beards swinging pocket watches back and forth, chanting “you are getting very sleepy” as loud as they can.
This seems to be the dominant view of politics. Anti-free will. Anti-free speech. Anti-democracy.
Propaganda doesn’t work, but restricting bandwidth does. This may seem contradictory, but it is not. Access to information does not control people, but lack of information means that everything must be reinvented. It is the same reason that slaves are prohibited from learning how to read.
This is the reason the Internet destroys propaganda–increased bandwidth. This is also why our bandwidth sucks so bad in the US. So that each generation and each individual must relearn and reinvent.
You want freedom? Scream for more voices. More bandwidth. More ideas.
You want a war of hypnotists? You are getting very sleepy.
Are you serious?
@Karl
Ummmm…Yes.
If you want to argue that you believe what you believe, not of your own free will, but because of propaganda–then go to town.
Ohhh, you want to argue that most everyone but you is hypnotized. That your awareness of how much everyone else is hypnotized is simultaneously a talisman to protect you from hypnosis and proof of how smart and awesome you are.
Free for all or free for none.
If advertising and propaganda worked, why would anyone use an adblocker?
More bad melodrama.
Propaganda is not hypnotism, I agree. On the other hand, the internet is no panacea for propaganda, but of course an effective purveyor of it.
Well, I’ll be out “screaming” for more voices, which you know is really the way you bring more voices in, by “screaming” for them.
AI-YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
@Vic Perry
Are you really still mad at me?
Let’s see if we can have a productive conversation together. First off, do you want more speech or less? If you want more speech, then the Internet is a revolution that makes the printing press look like the feather pen. If you want less speech, then the Internet is going to piss you off.
So where do you stand?
I had a friend who had a dog that was afraid of thunder. When the winds started to howl and the thunder cracked the dog crazedly raced around and barked in panic. My friend said that she had discovered that the best way to keep the dog calm was to put him in a carrying cage and then throw a blanket over that. So that’s what she did.
The dog certainly acted if he felt safer in the box with its close walls, snug roof, secure floor and door with its tiny wire grill, hidden away in the dark. During the storm sometimes there would be a shuffling and whimper from the box, but my friend would speak soothingly and the dog would settle down. During the night the storm died down and my friend let her dog out of the box.
The next day was sunny and clear. My friend and I were in the kitchen cooking and the dog was roaming around. But when a ceramic mixing bowl fell from a counter and crashed to the floor the dog immediately fled to his box, and for a while, refused to come out.
Some people feel safer in a good, strong cell – nothing can get past the bars to hurt them. They like it that the door is locked. They feel safe. That they can’t get out seems a trivial consideration, a small trade-off for the sense of well-being the enclosure provides.
Those who would trade away their First Amendment rights for the scale of security balancing freedom will see no problem with curtailment of free speech as long as they feel their sense of well-being is also being nicely leveled out. Neither will they understand why others may be outraged and dismayed.
When the scale begins to tip towards security, at first they will not notice. When it tips a little more, they will say that it is of no real importance, things are still pretty much on the level and sometimes compromises must be made. As the scale drifts more and more off-kilter the rationalizations as to why this is happening and the denial that things are really that much off-balance will seem sensible to most, accepted and commonplace.
All this has happened before at other times in other places. America is not so special that it will not also happen here; significant things have already happened and continue to occur.
“The Silent Majority” originally referred to the vast hordes of the slumbering dead; it is apt. We need their numbers to help right the scales as it appears we may be few and far between. Will we wake them? If we do, will they turn on us for rousing them from a self-satisfied sleep? Will they yawn and then turn over, as they’ve done so far even after they were poked in the side with Abu Graib and torture memos, proof that the previously almost unthinkable concept of “The United States of America” and “war crimes” amicably exists?
When the alarm rang with the Snowden revelations most of America hit the snooze button. Some of us are wide awake. But recently after years of obstructionism regarding prisoner release the Pentagon said that the President’s goals for Guantanamo are not the same as theirs. The Deep State feels so powerful it doesn’t even mask its contempt.
Yes, we’ll fight for our First Amendment rights. Yes, we’ll keep on fighting even if it’s inch by inch because some things are far too precious to cede.
But optimism may not be warranted at this time.
@Flamengo:
Well-written post, unlike some of the stuff I get to read out here, except perhaps some of the stuff that Mr Sufi writes.
Actually, as I grew up I lived that very process you are describing (I was born and raised in Cuba right after the “Revolution” ) and then went to school in East Germany, so, I and was able to ponder over those matters thoroughly from two different perspectives: Nazism and Socialism.
German (later) socialism smelled a bit like the sh!t I knew well (not even close but still) and the previous Nazi kind to me seems to resemble what is going on in the U.S. right now. Something that I learned well (I had the chance to have thorough, totally uninhibited talks with Hitler-Mädchen and other people who were conscientious Nazi sympathizers) is, as you pointed out, how people going down that morally pestilent hole rationalize their actions in almost the same easy way that they buy new stuff and then that other new new one and how they see what they do “different”, especial in some exclusive sense …
Something very confusing, I learned here in the U.S. is that people don’t have to be undergoing some actual large societal change to be submit to such ideas. I am amazed at how quietly and “naturally” gringos quit those grandiloquent ideas and supposedly “self-evident” precepts, but seem to be happily plunging into outright fascism.
At some point I stopped thinking of it as a moral issue. I see it more from an Anthropological point of view. To me religion serves the purpose of somewhat framing our collective madness at least with some nice sounding jingles (even if with self-serving tones). Currently mass media, the Internet … have taken over the job of “is the opium of the people”. I don’t think I can match that big thinker who said that or entirely disagree with the reasons of his saying so, but I don’t think people is stupid because of religion, people is stupid, because people is stupid
RCL
If we look closely, “free speech” implies “free listen” if so desired by the person speaking. Speech is meaningless without any audience.
In other words,
a) The government cannot bill you a penny for speaking.
b) If you want you can desist from billing anyone for listening to you.
c) The government does not have to pay you for listening so that your speech remains free per your own desire.
So where is the problem?
The government could do better. All telephones should be made free. Radio broadcasts must be free, as they usually are. But TV can still be charged as there is nothing called “free sight”.
2 points: 1. How can we ban “terrorist speech” when we can’t define the word terrorist? Any attempt to define the word would put every on air personality and commentator at Fox in jail. 2. Confronting and refuting dangerous ideas is in itself a dangerous idea. It would expose the lie that is “professional” journalism. Any attempt to confront or refute an idea would be opening the door to advocacy journalism. The oligarchs and other anti-democratic forces in this country have worked tirelessly to stifle advocacy journalism. If confronting and refuting became the norm, all that work would be undone. The cure would be worse than the disease.
The “consequence” argument promoted by some people here is at best misguided and at worst a lie. I cannot say it better than Jefferson. “Were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers, or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter.” The starting phrase “Congress shall make no law …” does not include the caveat “except when …”. The line of reasoning from the SC has been consistent over decades of ruling, and “prior restraint over free speech” has been resoundingly rejected.
The real problem here is that freedom of speech, as practiced today, is being subsumed to the interests of the “financial” clients – but, these “clients” feel that it is not being subsumed enough!
Some professors (perhaps many) like Posner, following their universities’ sentiments, show dislike for unorthodox opinions and “free speech” because those opinions have the ability to interfere with the mythmaking so important to brand equity of democracy and capitalism. In their zeal to protect their status, they promote an agenda that is a danger to the very foundations of democracy.
Thomas Jefferson said that! Wow, he was a founding father, let me bend the knee!!
Actions speak louder than words. In 1791, it was Jefferson who, while in the Washington Administration, recruited an editor to start an opposition newspaper where he wrote articles against Federalists under a pseudonym. There was even a kickback:
How noble, and another reason why “Founders talk” degrades debate.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Gazette
Is it your point that because Jefferson was underhanded it disqualifies him from being able to make useful statements?
Where did you learn that?
If a fool says that gravity makes things fall, you would suggest that gravity makes things fly because a fool said otherwise?!
What is your point? Please elaborate. Take issue with the statement not the person.
But it was you who attributed the statement to the person, in an effort to build credibility and give impact to the statement. If Bob from accounting coined the phrase, it would be exposed for what it is: a ridiculous hypothetical false choice.
In a nutshell, I merely am pointing out Jefferson’s hypocrisy and provide context. Jefferson exerted control over his arm of the media so maybe his comment is less principled than you suggest.
My fourth grade teachers insisted on citation and proper attribution – no plagiarism!
Once again, using your Bob from accounting, if he states that “All men are created equal”, I would not discount the statement because Bob cooks the books.
In my world statements are evaluated by their intrinsic value irrespective of the speaker. I take it that you are taking issue with the statement?
I already took issue with the statement, which is not amenable to discussion as no such dynamic exists anywhere in the world (My Country X has no Government but a sweet Media Establishment!!). But presume you say it is not to be taken literally, but the underlying message is that news has greater intrinsic value than the Government. If that’s your view, then say so! Though I’d argue against it since the American people established this Government and the underlying principles and laws by electing officials who drafted them. If Government did not exist, the media would have no basis to assess the Government’s track record applying the rule of law or whether the law is flawed or outdated. But as I mentioned before, Jefferson had his hand in both pots, which cheapens the fact that the quote came out of his mouth.
I am saying that the quote is nonsensical at worst and further questionable because of Jefferson’s actions (talk the talk, but cannot walk the walk). To exacerbate the matter, I perceive your comment to be an example of founder worship. Maybe that’s unfair but I’ve been around the block enough to know that there are a lot of people out there that will use a single quote from the founders without context, and pretend like their 18th century thoughts and idioms are still applicable 200+ years later, usually for selfish argumentative purposes that try to wall off discussion.
“My Country X has no Government but a sweet Media Establishment!!”
It appears to be the case that you are not familiar with the kind of allegorical device being used in the statement. So, I understand why you seem difficulty understanding it.
“Jefferson had his hand in both pots, which cheapens the fact that the quote came out of his mouth”
I understand that you are unable to separate the statement from the man.
“I perceive your comment to be an example of founder worship”
As I have repeatedly noted before, the value of a statement can be separated from the person (in this case, the Founder). This kind of compartmentalization enables appreciation of concepts with less prejudice.
“pretend like their 18th century thoughts and idioms are still applicable 200+ years later,”
The philosophical constructs of Socrates from 300+BC remain applicable. Intellect is not equally distributed in time or space!
I take it you’re not a fan of the Citizens United decision. Well, as it happens, I don’t think it is beneficial, when the wealthy have the right to spend their wealth as they please and people have the right to write when they please and get paid for it, to try to say that it is *wrong* to mix those two things. I deplore the influence of the wealthy on politics, but at least their wealth is at something of a disadvantage there, which is better than usual. We should focus on *actually having more opportunity and equality*, not trying to make regulatory kludges to try to make a democracy out of a nation of lords and serfs. And as so … I do NOT blame Jefferson for starting his own paper, paying his own author, to oppose the other party’s views.
I am not. Wait, what…why are we talking about this!?
More power to you. But I do take issue with that; it’s not like it was commonplace back then. It was unprecedented then and it would be outrageous now.
“Would be outrageous”? I dunno, like Roger Ailes has gotten to be CEO of Fox News starting out as an executive producer for Nixon. Isn’t that precisely the same thing?
On this moment the USA is a radical right wing nation with characteristics of Germany in the 1930? . A weak and sick political environment. No middle class and not the Jews but the Moslims are the bad guy?.
Your waiting for that one leader, the man who fix everything.
When your giving up privacy is the same thing than offering the freedom om speech, you say that you have anything to say… There will be maybe a time i kick my computer out of the house. Maybe is that the best way saving my privacy. 1984 is not far away, the ministry of peace or the is doing a great job.
Beware America, you are nit longer the leader in the free world, your the leader in a forced controlled world. Mao would be proud.
This is really about shutting down the internet,a rich source of truth the MSM hides everyday.They fear the current awakening of Americans to the reality of Zionist control of America,wo whose support their Zionist expansion and security program rests.
What @CraigSummers is saying is more right than wrong – that’s because I don’t see him defending censorship, only arguing against the “we deserve it” meme. The U.S. and other Western countries aren’t strictly out to bomb Muslims for the hell of it, out of racism – though there is enough idiotic right-wing sentiment in that direction that I can’t say there isn’t some of that aspect to it, and certainly Bush’s outright lying makes me think that aspect extends to very high places. Still, what mostly has happened is that Muslims ended up killing one another on a large scale, in threatening ways, and the U.S. got roped into some scheme that was supposed to save lives on average, despite the inevitable civilian casualties.
The problem, of course, is that this transfers Someone Else’s Problem into America’s Criminal Behavior, even if it really did reduce the net casualties, and more often than not the plan was dumb from the beginning and their casualties – and ours – are in vain.
That may be a small distinction, but whatever the rest of us think, the military does have a mysterious thing called “honor” that pulls them back from the brink of madness, and they have some sense of strategy whereby they think interventions make some kind of humanitarian sense. By and large, they are not war criminals or racists but are the national equivalent of a juvenile gang member who has fallen in with the wrong crowd. We need them out of there, and all this empire madness will abate as quick as you can say “Vietnam Syndrome”.
Now yeah, I know, it’s not really quite so easy. The U.S. has more history of this than it has history. Before there was a New Amsterdam, before there was a Canada, there was Samuel de Champlain marking off the New York border with a mixture of targeted killing and shock and awe. I think we could learn a lot about Syria or Iraq by reading about the French and Iroquois war. But the thing is, in the old days the not-yet-U.S. gave the Iroquois guns so they could drive out all the other “Indians” over a vast territory before handing it over – today we scarcely get anything out of it, except for a small fraction of the oil contracts. It’s a rotten tendency that lives on long after any benefit to be had from it is gone.
Oh yes, the “we’re-just-a-well-intentioned-giant” self-flattery. That never gets old.
When we kill them, it’s out of the goodness of our heart.
When they kill us, it’s because they’re evil.
Our tribe is superior. Theirs is inferior: so much so that they should be grateful when we kill them, not angry, because we’re doing it with the noblest of intentions. That’s how good and superior we are.
Whoever is as ignorant as you are would classify your comment as one of a terrorist sympathizer.
“When they kill us, it’s because they’re evil.”
Who are “them”? ISIL? Al Qaeda? Taliban? Boko Haram?
Most Muslims are the ones who call those groups evils. So, can you please name us the Islamic terrorist groups that have killed more Americans than Muslims?
@ lula
Then ISIL, Al Qaeda, Taliban and Boko Haram i.e. “those groups” sound like they are problem that “most Muslims” are perfectly capable of dealing with without aid or assistance from America or the West.
More importantly, if “those groups” are statistically an insignificant risk to the daily lives of Americans and Westerners in their own lands, which they are objectively, then give me exactly one reason why America or the West should “intervene” to solve a problem that “most Muslims” seem perfectly capable of sorting out themselves?
Better yet can you name the “terrorist group” that has killed more Muslims than the Americans and their Western allies (and proxies in the region) have over the last 45 years in the ME?
Well, by international standards there is a difference between a U.S. policy that is, at least nominally, seeking to destroy military assets and specific individuals involved in military action, and an al Qaida or ISIS attack on public health department members at a Christmas meeting or hapless Yazidi refugees hiding out on a mountain. You can say that the drone pilots are way too accepting of civilian casualties, cover them up, even use sinister “behavioral characteristics” to pick out targets in a way that is not morally tolerable … but by all accounts they do try to avoid hitting civilians. With some lunatic exceptions like MSF that certainly invite, but do not yet compel, us to believe the worst. It is a difference though. Not as much or as sure a difference as I’d like, but enough to make it worth rationing the rhetoric.
The nobility of intentions is a strange thing in war. On one hand, what would have happened had the U.S. not stood up to the Japanese and the Germans when it mattered most? Yet on the other … well, being “Allies” meant sitting back and watching Finland get invaded by Russia in the Winter War and Continuation War. I think there is always some mental terrain at the center of a war that is too weird for most people to think about, around which the rest revolves: in that instance, picture Adolf Hitler awarding the Iron Cross to Jewish military officers ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation_War ).
It is clear enough in hindsight that the U.S. reaction to “communist” governments in the Cold War was tremendously counterproductive to the ideals of freedom they should have been trying to serve. But let’s bear in mind that Mossadegh was ruling under broad emergency powers with a suspended parliament, trying to write the Shah out of the government while Britain and the U.S. had his grudging support to go ahead with the coup. The alternative outcome – Nasser in Egypt rising without such opposition – was more populist, but ultimately … how much better did it work out? There aren’t a whole lot of happy endings in the Middle East.
There is now mountains of evidence proving the U.S.’s murderous intentions. 70 years of illegal, violent foreign policy in the ME – the sole purpose of which was to gain control of those countries’ governments and resources- is proof enough without the Wikileaks & other leaked docs that have confirmed so much in ink.
Like Craig, you are ignorant and delusional, unwilling to see your country’s crimes for what they are. People like you will keep lying to yourselves and those around you in order to not have to face the atrocities that have been carried by the U.S. in your name for the last 70 years, including obliterating secular Muslim countries that were making huge strides in so many areas like health, education, and women’s rights. Iraq alone was a secular state with one of the highest literacy & college attendance rates in the world (with half its university students being women. It also had one of the best healthcare systems. But your murderous country decided to impose illegal, genocidal sanctions (both UN heads who oversaw this in Iraq resigned and called the sanctions “genocidal”) which killed half a million babies and children. Yes, the Baathist government was terrible for many reasons, but the US didn’t seem to give a shit when it overthrew Iraq’s popular, secular, democratically-elected PM before the Baathists took power. In Afghanistan in the 80s, which was also secular and making similar progress, the murderous US armed the religious-fanataic Muhajadeens (later to become the Taliban) and called its leader (Osama Bin Laden) a “hero” and “freedom fighter.” This was all solely to kick the Russians out. The U.S. didn’t give a rat’s ass about Afghans or what they wanted or needed. And of course we know about Iran’s beloved Mossadegh (a democratic-socialist) in 1953, who the CIA violently overthrew after imposing crippling, illegal sanctions solely because Mossadegh decided to nationalize Iran’s oil and not allow the UK & US to steal its oil any longer.
All of this is just the tip of the iceberg that is the U.S. government’s history of violent terrorism against sovereign nations.
History does not begin at 9/11, and terrorism can absolutely be called ‘terrorism’ and ‘blowback’ at the same time. And unless you’re willing to call out your own government’s terrorism & try to end it, you really have no business speaking about the blowback.
I was not impressed with those genocidal sanctions myself, but dammit, this mindless anti-Americanism doesn’t help. How did the *U.S.* become solely responsible for UN sanctions? There are four other countries that could veto them flat out. In truth, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_661 passed 13 to 0. Cuba and Yemen didn’t vote for them, but they didn’t vote against either. On 687 Cuba voted against, and Yemen and Ecuador abstained.
The truth is, while the sanctions were clearly not the right answer, the prior use of chemical weapons, the invasion of Kuwait, the setting on fire of oil wells, the suppression of Shiites and Kurds … these were problems that the world wanted to deal with. Not just the U.S. Nobody in any country wants to worry that the cost of home heating oil is going to skyrocket because some dictator set the well on fire because he couldn’t have the money from it. The capitalist system, in particular, the “ownership” of natural resources set aside by Providence from the beginning of time, is deeply flawed; but none of these countries, nor you, have seriously proposed a workable solution, and the U.S. shouldn’t suffer any *special* blame when it implements the same flawed ideas as the rest of the world, with the rest of the world’s blessing.
Hi Mona.
Always good to hear from your good radicalized self.
“…… No, they say it is our policies that drive Islamist attacks on the West……these people are all “far leftists,” right Craig?…..”
Regardless of their political affiliation, they are brainwashed. Who better to ask than the ones doing the fighting? Several thousand Muslims have traveled from Europe to join ISIS to kill Muslims – apparently (in your mind) to protest western policies?! You need to understand (but you will refuse to acknowledge the obvious) that Radical Islam is about power. The propaganda is about our policies. In that respect, the Intercept is at the forefront of propagating the lies of the Islamists.
@ Craig
Let me ask you a straightforward question as a human being. If China decided the US had become too decadent and exploitive of working classes, was run by radical authoritarian corporatist fascists who forced women to bear children, imprisoned people disproportionately based on race or minority status . . . and decided to “liberate” Americans from their authoritarian plight by bombing the “radical Christian” elements in American society, would you be okay with that?
What if those Chinese, as a function of their “policies”, and employing “liberty and freedom” bombs, blew up your house while you were away at work killing your wife, children and all your extended family members. Would you become “radicalized” against China? Or would the fact China’s “intentions were good” be enough for you to just ignore the killing of your loved ones? Would you be willing to kill your fellow Americans who you felt were attempting to subvert your “way of life” or stop you from exacting revenge on those in China you held responsible for killing your family members?
However misguided their methods, they believe they are fighting against the imposition of “western policies” in lands or with people they believe they have an affiliation with. Those misguided methods also includes anyone, particularly other “Muslims” who they believe are a threat to their agenda to protect their lands (this could be minorities who are non-Muslim or Sunnis or Shias who don’t share their agenda).
So are the forces of neoliberal capitalism. Are you prepared to acknowledge that obvious fact and reality? It is well documented. Would you like a breakdown of all the “radical” murdering and destruction that has been visited upon the people of the world in an attempt to preserve or expand “markets” for Western capitalism over say the last 500 years–or how about just the genocides, coups and invasions of sovereign nations over the last 150?
Globalization was going to happen whether it was the British empire or some other state which colonized distant lands. Yes, it was violent, racist and brutal. There is considerable push-back against globalization even today which drives Islamic and other religious movements, the preservation of culture, ethnicity, right wing anti-immigration movements and so on.
However, my point is simple concerning radical Islamic movements like ISIS and al-Qaeda: quit making victims out of killers. ISIS, Boko Haram (etc.) are violent, anti-democratic political movements seeking power primarily using terrorist tactics to subjugate the masses. Muslims are the primary victims. Greenwald continually justifies violence against the west as acts of revenge. That is entirely false.
I don’t support the killing of civilians. Unfortunately, I cannot think of a war that civilians have not been killed – and that will continue for the foreseeable future (at least until the dictators of the world realize that people deserve a say in their government). Isn’t that how the Arab Spring was quashed?
That doesn’t seem quite right.
You keep claiming Glenn is an apologist for the acts of others against America and the west, yet you confuse “justifies” with “explains.”
No one here is legitimately claiming that the violence is justified, they’re simply explaining the inevitable effect of the blow-back such violence has on other human beings.
Yes, they are acts of revenge (and for other reasons as well) but what they’re not is being excused by anyone as acceptable acts – they are simply inevitable given the circumstances.
Another excellent Intercept article by Glenn.
Of course we should have known it was another Cass Sunstein fascist proposal being floated. Along with his equally evil spouse, this duo could be straight out of an Austin Powers movie parody. Unfortunately, they are all too real. He is likely to be Hillary’s Attorney General while the lovely Ms. Powers will head up the State Department. Better start getting that second passport now!
Free speech suppressors always whine about certain content, and believe in magic. “If we only shut them up, the bad ideas will disappear!” The more open the speech venues, the more absurd this magical thinking is. But it also becomes more tempting to the would be Rulers and mouth smashers. Now our lovely couple above wouldn’t do that, would they? No, they have it hired out. A new category of highly paid government thugs.
There are places where the Sunstein Doctrine is in full force. N. Korea for instance. But you don’t hear these censorship advocates mentioning these horrible places, do you? No, under their system of speech suppression, all will be lovely and very kind. So they would claim.
We live in a world of many disagreements. Bad people exist willing to hurt others. Many of those, of course, like to drop bombs on others from drones and airplanes. Or shoot missiles from ships. Others gun down innocents from cars or at holiday parties. But the bad ideas motivating these horrible violent crimes aren’t new or original. Quite ancient, if the texts can be believed.
Yet the lure of censorship endures. Despite the fact that no one can point to any old “bad idea” that disappeared as a result of trying to suppress it from being uttered. That idea is like re-naming a disease to cure it.
While it is easy to accuse right-wingers of advocating fascist ideas, the idea that icons of the Democratic Party’s social democratic wing are equally enthusiastic about them is less often voiced. Distrust thus grows.
“Sure Mr. Sunstein, let’s start censoring stuff. Starting with the crazy things you and your wife are saying.” How’s that? Everyone now on board?
Spot on!
Thanks for a interesting read and providing more food for thoughts.
Excellent article Glenn. I’m glad we still have journalists like you who continue to stand up for the idea and ideals of free speech and dissent.
When we limit advocacy we wIl fail to address the advocacy that attracts men to ISIS. We will then lose the war of ideas. It is that victory of ideas that our constitution celebrates and which has drawn millions to our shores. Our Arsenal of ideas will defeat ISIS…nothing more and nothing less.
I agree with the views expressed in this article. In Canada, Bill C-51 has been passed despite being in gross violation of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms under the pretext that it aims to limit terrorist activity. Many critics have voiced the obvious which is that the bill has nothing to do with terrorism and has everything to do with silencing genuine dissent and healthy intellectual debate. Additionally, it gives the government unwarranted power to spy on genuine activists such as environmental advocacy groups. Here in Canada, many activists are trying to get Bill C-51 repealed, but it’s an uphill struggle which could have been avoided had the bill never been passed in the first place.
This is very interesting.
I have been posting on this site as “Clark” and
now the same name is not me.
Perhaps it is time for me to stop coming here.
I can’t help but be reminded of 1984, where the enemy “Goldstein” was “capable of using anyone to achieve his goals”, had it not been for the “thought police “. All of which, of course, were made up to keep the people in line.
Those demanding free speech limits to fight ISIS are not alone. In supplement to the above, we have
15 Threats to Free Speech in 2015
http://ncac.org/blog/15-threats-to-free-speech-in-2015/
@Pedinska –
Thanks for that link. It’s chilly here and it made my blood boil. Problem solved.
I doubt that “millions of Americans” promote the ongoing destruction of the middle east. it’s a comparative handful of individuals and corporations promotion and profiting from this disaster.
Check again. Fox News, CNN, and others are part of a process involving positive feedback where both fear of and the desire to destroy “the enemy” are kept absurdly high.
Almost?,if not all major media outlets in America are owned and controlled by a comparative handful of dual citizen Zionist mole traitors.
They are the spreaders of the disinfo and misinfo which keeps a lot of Americans in the dark re reality.
Mr.Cox is quite correct.
Some more, albeit indirect, evidence. A Gallup poll, reported on in today’s NYTimes, says Barack Obama is the most respected man in the USA. Second is a tie between the Pope and Donald Trump. No shit. And the most respected woman, Hillary of course. Dumb and dumber.
They kind of do when they vote for the politicians promoting such views. While it sadly might not be viewed as such here in America, elsewhere in the world a vote for a certain candidate or party is a vote for that candidate or party’s policy beliefs and character, and as such it wouldn’t be much of a stretch for someone elsewhere in the world to think that millions of Americans promote the ongoing destruction of the middle east. It’s a concept spoiler theorists fail to recognize when they scream about not “wasting” one’s vote or “spoiling” the election for their favorite football team-I mean favorite of the two current ruling parties.
Thank goodness I woke up just a couple of years after I turned 18, but I still have one election’s worth of blood on my hands (voted for McCain in 2008; I was completely naive back then). Since 2010 I’ve been voting Green whenever I can.
@ Glenn
Only thing missing together with this article is a demonstration. A visceral demonstration for those who think it is a good idea to have the government picking and choosing (censoring) which ideas human beings are permitted to even hear: start by deleting every comment by CraigSummers that ever tangentially condones or advocates violence against Muslims or predominantly Muslim lands, and any speech that condones or advocates violence committed by the State of Israel against Palestinians.
No quicker way to teach someone the hypocrisy of their own positions than to give them what they want, by using it against them. Craig and his fellow travelers will be squalling like babies first time you write a piece critical of US military colonialism, fake humanitarian interventionism, or the torture and killing of unarmed Palestinians–and they aren’t permitted to be critical of your piece or defend, advocate or condone the violence perpetrated by America or Israel.
And then you can throw it right in their faces–“Look you don’t agree with me, nor believe what I write, and would like to advocate a contrary position. But in the world you want with no First Amendment protections for your speech (not that I or the Intercept are the government and can delete your comments as we see fit), you are just as likely to have your speech deleted, barred, banned or disappeared (if not be criminally prosecuted for it) by THE GOVERNMENT eventually (particularly if you disagree with a US government led by say a “radical leftist” rather than your preferred “conservative” authoritarian). So I’m just giving you a taste of what that’s going to be like in your world where you don’t have a fundamental human right to voice your opinion on the topics of your choice–so suck it–this is the world you wanted and this is how it will function.”
Although it is doubtful he had anything to do with the 911 attacks, Osama bin Laden was very pleased with the results. The angry hornets of the United States of Fearful Consumers were set lose to bring death and destruction to various nations, out of sheer, cowardly vengeance. Now the inevitable is happening: the hornets are stinging themselves, and their nation, to death.
Excellent article.
Craig, you never fail to bombard us with your useless drivel, completely devoid of facts and history. You, as an anti-intellectual bigot with no grasp on reality or the workings of the human mind/condition, are a gutless, grade-A propagandist. Every time I read your garbage posts, it feels like I’m reading the incoherent ramblings of a drooling invalid who’s angry that the bullshit, deluded narrative about the “war on terror” that’s been mainstream for the last decade and a half (and which has allowed you to get away with your racism, bigotry, and ignorance) is cracking into a million pieces and no longer being readily accepted by the masses. We can, in part, thank the treasure trove of Wikileaks & Snowden documents laying bare the lies and crimes of the US government, the CIA, and the military for that (documents which really just confirmed what anyone who was paying attention already knew).
Craig, you sad pathetic cretin, wipe the drool off your face and come to terms with reality. Or, keep detoriating in the dark, delusional hole you’ve dug yourself into. I don’t think anyone here gives a fuck either way. You are irrelevant..
This comment was meant as a reply to the demented invalid known as ‘Craig Summers’ below.
Ha! I love it when sanctimonious Lib troll slam someone’s intelligence (merely for holding a different view), and they totally jack it up.
Hilarious
You are right to an extent, Kevin. Craig is not an invalid, tho he is *morally demented. Craig, you see, is a fierce Zionist who doesn’t merely *support the use of torture, he positive thinks it is a great tool. (Ask him; I’m not exaggerating.) He has to feel this way, because Israel rampantly tortures people, and Israel cannot be bad.
Craig is a deeply authoritarian man who doesn’t like the 4th Amendment ban on government undertaking searches and seizures without a warrant. No, Craig doesn’t like that limitation on the authorities — whom he reveres — at all.
So, it’s true that Craig is not an invalid. His illness of the spiritual/moral variety.
He is a failed propagandist as his bs is readily discernible.
I can’t help noticing that some people who post here, who fiercely advocate for the first amendment and freedom of speech, are the first to launch a brutal ad hominem attack on someone who espouses a point of view different than their own. Why can’t we just keep it to arguing the substance of other people’s positions instead of resorting to personal attacks? Also, I would be curious to hear what TI readers would do if they were running the country, what policies would they put in place, foreign and domestic? Specifics please. Thanks.
How about keeping The First Amendment, for starters? Are you arguing against that? “Specifics please. Thanks.”
I am all about the first amendment. I was defending the right of people on this post to express their opinions without having to suffer obscenity laden personal attacks. Of course, that is also someone’s 1st amendment amendment right, but I think a more couteous discourse would lend greater credibility to the arguments made here.
That’s not a “right.” No one posting here has a “right” to not have their opinion vehemently disagreed with. To whine about it, as you are doing, is childish and silly. Also your description of the disagreements: “suffer obscenity” are silly and hyperbolic.
In the specific example you are expressing your ‘suffering’ over, CraigSummers is a long standing defender of torture, and also murder by cops. Outside of violent attack on CraigSummers, there is no amount of vehement disagreement that he has not ‘rightly’ earned. The commenter, CraigSummers, is a vile person.
I have no concern at all that you are suffering from reading people express as much directly to him.
Mr. Greenwald
The Intercept continues to make victims out of Islamic terrorists.
“…….There are millions of people in the world who believe and argue that the U.S. has been supporting tyranny and bringing violence to predominantly Muslim countries for decades as a means of dominating that region, and that return violence is not only justifiable but necessary to stop it…….”
Again Glenn, you put forth the same worn out, discredited hypothesis that radical Islam merely seeks revenge to US “racists” policies. In effect, you make victims out of killers. ISIS, al-Qaeda, Boko Haram, Shish kabob, TTP and the Taliban (etc.) are political-religious movements that seek power – and they are willing to kill anyone who opposes them politically. It makes no different if they are Christian, Muslim or Jew. In that respect, they are no different than Mao, Pol Pot, Stalin and any number of past or current brutal political movements to gain power. Islamists attack Shia Mosques, media outlets, minorities (Yazidis, Kurds), women, little girls, NATO troops and the list goes on. It matters little to them who they murder – and certainly not Muslims who they murder most of all.
ISIS is a particularly brutal Islamic movement. They are also have a very good social media program which has successfully reached out to Muslims world-wide. Several thousand generally young Muslims have traveled from Europe to join ISIS. How is that even possible? Take the case of Lee Rigby, the British soldier murdered in London. Here is what one of the murderers said:
“……The only reason we have killed this man today is because Muslims are dying daily by British soldiers. And this British soldier is one … By Allah, we swear by the almighty Allah we will never stop fighting you until you leave us alone. So what if we want to live by the Sharia in Muslim lands? Why does that mean you must follow us and chase us and call us extremists and kill us? … when you drop a bomb do you think it hits one person? Or rather your bomb wipes out a whole family? … Through many passages in the Koran we must fight them as they fight us … I apologise that women had to witness this today but in our lands women have to see the same. You people will never be safe. Remove your governments, they don’t care about you. You think David Cameron is gonna get caught in the street when we start busting our guns? Do you think politicians are going to die? No, it’s going to be the average guy, like you and your children. So get rid of them. Tell them to bring our troops back … leave our lands and you will live in peace…..”
This is classic (Intercept) propaganda. Daily, we (the west) are wiping out Muslims……we drop bombs and wipe out whole Muslim families. The killer is even sorry that British women have to witness the murder, but Muslim women have to witness those same murders in Muslim countries. Killing the British soldier is not what he wants to do. It is what he has to do to bring attention to British atrocities. The key conclusion is that you must remove your governments i.e., change your foreign policy. The killers use a terrorist style killing, and threaten more terror to change our foreign policy. He encourages us to get rid of our governments. Is the goal to save Muslims from British bombs, or to change our foreign policy?
The answer is straight forward: Islamic political movements principally kill and terrorize Muslims to gain power. They wipe out whole families, and they are clearly not sorry that Muslim women have to witness the murders. You can frequently read about Shia Mosques being bombed killing dozens of Muslims and wiping out entire (Muslim) families. They throw acid in the faces of little Muslim girls – and attempt to murder them when they support girl’s education. The idea (propaganda) that invading Muslim lands, killing Muslims through sanctions and supporting Israel is the reason for the blowback is ridiculous based on their own record of killing and terrorizing Muslims. However, that doesn’t mean that their propaganda doesn’t work on a small percentage of Muslims world-wide – and a small percentage of western media outlets like the Intercept. The Intercept is certainly guilty (as are a lot of radical leftists sites) of propagating Islamic propaganda.
However, if you believe that we should change our foreign policy from interfering in the Middle East so they can sort out their own problems, or change our foreign policies from protecting the oil supplies which drives the world’s economy – then fine. That is a reasonable position. However, changing our foreign policy – which helps prevent the Islamists from gaining power – is the goal of Islamic political movements. Killing Muslims is irrelevant to their goals. In fact, terrorizing and murdering Muslims enhances and helps achieve the goal of the Islamic terrorists – which is gaining power to subjugate Muslims. Western Muslims that kills westerners or travel to the ME (to kill Muslims) have been brainwashed.
I’m sorry, I fell asleep – can you please repeat that? Thanks.
Mr. Greenwald
The Intercept continues to make victims out of Islamic terrorists.
“…….There are millions of people in the world who believe and argue that the U.S. has been supporting tyranny and bringing violence to predominantly Muslim countries for decades as a means of dominating that region, and that return violence is not only justifiable but necessary to stop it…….”
Again Glenn, you put forth the same worn out, discredited hypothesis that radical Islam merely seeks revenge to US “racists” policies. In effect, you make victims out of killers. ISIS, al-Qaeda, Boko Haram, Shish kabob, TTP and the Taliban (etc.) are political-religious movements that seek power – and they are willing to kill anyone who opposes them politically. It makes no different if they are Christian, Muslim or Jew. In that respect, they are no different than Mao, Pol Pot, Stalin and any number of past or current brutal political movements to gain power. Islamists attack Shia Mosques, media outlets, minorities (Yazidis, Kurds), women, little girls, NATO troops and the list goes on. It matters little to them who they murder – and certainly not Muslims who they murder most of all.
ISIS is a particularly brutal Islamic movement. They are also have a very good social media program which has successfully reached out to Muslims world-wide. Several thousand generally young Muslims have traveled from Europe to join ISIS. How is that even possible? Take the case of Lee Rigby, the British soldier murdered in London. Here is what one of the murderers said:
“……The only reason we have killed this man today is because Muslims are dying daily by British soldiers. And this British soldier is one … By Allah, we swear by the almighty Allah we will never stop fighting you until you leave us alone. So what if we want to live by the Sharia in Muslim lands? Why does that mean you must follow us and chase us and call us extremists and kill us? … when you drop a bomb do you think it hits one person? Or rather your bomb wipes out a whole family? … Through many passages in the Koran we must fight them as they fight us … I apologise that women had to witness this today but in our lands women have to see the same. You people will never be safe. Remove your governments, they don’t care about you. You think David Cameron is gonna get caught in the street when we start busting our guns? Do you think politicians are going to die? No, it’s going to be the average guy, like you and your children. So get rid of them. Tell them to bring our troops back … leave our lands and you will live in peace…..”
This is classic (Intercept) propaganda. Daily, we (the west) are wiping out Muslims……we drop bombs and wipe out whole Muslim families. The killer is even sorry that British women have to witness the murder, but Muslim women have to witness those same murders in Muslim countries. Killing the British soldier is not what he wants to do. It is what he has to do to bring attention to British atrocities. The key conclusion is that you must remove your governments i.e., change your foreign policy. The killers use a terrorist style killing, and threaten more terror to change our foreign policy. He encourages us to get rid of our governments. Is the goal to save Muslims from British bombs, or to change our foreign policy?
The answer is straight forward: Islamic political movements principally kill and terrorize Muslims to gain power. They wipe out whole families, and they are clearly not sorry that Muslim women have to witness the murders. You can frequently read about Shia Mosques being bombed killing dozens of Muslims and wiping out entire (Muslim) families. They throw acid in the faces of little Muslim girls – and attempt to murder them when they support girl’s education. The idea (propaganda) that invading Muslim lands, killing Muslims through sanctions and supporting Israel is the reason for the blowback is ridiculous based on their own record of killing and terrorizing Muslims. However, that doesn’t mean that their propaganda doesn’t work on a small percentage of Muslims world-wide – and a small percentage of western media outlets like the Intercept. The Intercept is certainly guilty (as are a lot of radical leftists sites) of propagating Islamic propaganda.
However, if you believe that we should change our foreign policy from interfering in the Middle East so they can sort out their own problems, or change our foreign policies from protecting the oil supplies which drives the world’s economy – then fine. That is a reasonable position. However, changing our foreign policy – which helps prevent the Islamists from gaining power – is the goal of Islamic political movements. Killing Muslims is irrelevant to their goals. In fact, terrorizing and murdering Muslims enhances and helps achieve the goal of the Islamic terrorists – which is gaining power to subjugate Muslims. Western Muslims that kills westerners or travel to the ME (to kill Muslims) have been brainwashed.
Craig, are the U.S. Defense Science Board and Mubin Shaikh — a Canadian Muslim and former militant who now helps his govt stop terrorism — are these people all “far leftists” out of touch with the causes of terrorism? Because, as you know, they do not find Glenn’s facts to be “discredited.” No, they say it is our policies that drive Islamist attacks on the West.
But, these people are all “far leftists,” right Craig?
It’s worse than you think, mona. Craig actually believes, through cognitive infiltration, U.S. foreign policies post 9/11 have helped prevent ‘Islamists’ from gaining power.
*Oh, and btw, Rabbi Craig thinks you’re like a radical Islamic political movement.
In particular, suicide terrorism on foreign soil has to be done out of anger or revenge. No one is going to get themselves killed to “acquire power.” That and other rationalizations make no sense.
Craig is right that there are political factions in the Middle East who do seek to acquire power. Some of them are US-supported. But how is that relevant? In any part of the world with political instability you’re going to have groups that seek to acquire power, often by violent means. That in no way addresses the real grievances that people around the world might have.
Craig, you never fail to bombard us with your useless drivel, completely devoid of facts and history. You, as an anti-intellectual bigot with no grasp on reality or the workings of the human mind/condition, are a gutless, grade-A propagandist. Every time I read your garbage posts, it feels like I’m reading the incoherent ramblings of a drooling invalid who’s angry that the bullshit, deluded narrative about the “war on terror” that’s been mainstream for the last decade and a half (and which has allowed you to get away with your racism, bigotry, and ignorance) is cracking into a million pieces and no longer being readily accepted by the masses. We can, in part, thank the treasure trove of Wikileaks & Snowden documents laying bare the lies and crimes of the US government, the CIA, and the military for that (documents which really just confirmed what anyone who was paying attention already knew).
Craig, you sad pathetic cretin, wipe the drool off your face and come to terms with reality. Or, keep detoriating in the dark, delusional hole you’ve dug yourself into. I don’t think anyone here gives a fuck either way. You are irrelevant.
” In that respect, they are no different than Mao, Pol Pot, Stalin and any number of past or current brutal political movements to gain power.”
You overlooked the Zionists and Imperialists. You’ve been brainwashed since the day you were born. Get your head out of your butt.
@ Craig
In other words, using your quotes, the more America and the West employ policies that attempt to “keep Islamists from power” except our Islamist BFFs–Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Bahrain apparently (i.e. murdering them and often those around them who may or may not be Islamists–whatever the fuck you think “Islamists” means) only serves to make them either martyrs in the eyes of their fellow citizens OR results in the death of the innocents around them. And it only incentivizes the remaining folks living in the area to consider the idea that only ISIS can protect them from invading Westerners.
So basically a classic Catch-22. You can never kill off an “idea” by murdering the people who believe in it. In fact you likely submerge it and make it stronger, or demonstrate its necessity or truth. In fact maybe the only way you can “kill an idea” is to discredit it in the eyes of almost everyone. Otherwise, there will always be some small percentage of any population of human beings who believe the most outrageous things–take America and Americans for example. Or Craig Summers for example.
But if you attempt to kill or censor an idea out of existence, you likely are only making the idea stronger particularly in the eyes of all those connected to the innocents being killed in the name of combatting that idea. It simply reinforces it as “true” in their minds.
rrheard
“……But if you attempt to kill or censor an idea out of existence, you likely are only making the idea stronger particularly in the eyes of all those connected to the innocents being killed in the name of combatting that idea. It simply reinforces it as “true” in their minds……”
I am not attempting to censor anything out of existence. In fact, it is the extreme left that is in denial over the goals of radical Islam; thus the constant reference to the report by the Defense Science Board’s Task Force on Strategic Communication which simply got it wrong.
Thanks.
@ Craig
There is somewhere on the order of 1.3 billion members of Islam spread all across the world. Please define for me which of that 1.3 billion you rightly categorize as a) members of “radical Islam”, b) what exactly are their “goals”, and c) how exactly are they going to achieve their “goals” but for the US intervening to stop them.
Thanks.
It seems to me that 4 of the biggest supporters of “radical Islam” globally, also happen to be some of America’s closest allies in the region–Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Bahrain, UAE and Pakistan.
You should really offer to volunteer your services as a global foreign policy analyst since all the people in the Pentagon, academia, the UN and departments of state all over the globe, some of whom are actually on the ground collecting the information used in their analysis are just a bunch of misinformed dopes. Unlike you. You who are apparently privy to the secret “radical Islam” agenda and the realistic mechanisms and tools they possess for achieving that agenda.
Craig, you are really making life hard on some of TI’s commentators. After reading your response, I took note of some of the responses:
* Alana: “Craig, you never fail to bombard us with your useless drivel, completely devoid of facts and history…Craig, you sad pathetic cretin, wipe the drool off your face and come to terms with reality. ”
Nowhere in Alana’s response is an effort to refute your comments.
* Mona – “Craig is not an invalid, tho he is *morally demented. Craig, you see, is a fierce Zionist who doesn’t merely *support the use of torture, he positive thinks it is a great tool. (Ask him; I’m not exaggerating.) He has to feel this way, because Israel rampantly tortures people, and Israel cannot be bad.”
Again, character attacks with no response to his actual commentary. To be expected from Glenn’s likely unwanted lapdog.
* Foghorn: “You’ve been brainwashed since the day you were born. Get your head out of your butt.”
Ditto. Nothingness, utter failure to rebut your comments. Glenn and his personality cult hold themselves out to be the most ardent supporters of 1st Amendment rights but their responses to differing opinions paint a different picture. Intellectual “adversaries” are vilified, their motivations are questioned, an “us versus them” mentality pollutes the area. Commenters such as Craig who dare go against the grain are ganged up on by a rabble of sycophants (with the exception of rrheard and a very slight amount of others) who just want to hear Glenn say the same shit 100 different ways (and oh boy…he delivers the same commentary to the point of exhaustion) and do not want to have their worldview questioned.
Now for some actual conversation, first with Craig:
They focus on what their advocacy has already established in their minds. Is it true that the Invasion of Iraq helped seed and bring us the Islamic State? Yes it is. Therefore they latch onto this and ignore the other causal factors such as the failure of the Maliki government’s to include Sunnis and his betrayal of members of the 2007 Awakening; the destabilization of Syria; sectarian violence that predates the U.S. invasion of Iraq; and IS’ desire to follow in the footsteps of Zarqawi and kill and torment Shia Muslims – aka the “rafidah”
Actually, the Yazidis get treated even worse than the monotheists because their efforts to combine Islam and Christianity is an affront to what IS believes. In the Islamic State’s propaganda magazine Dabiq, it defended their slavery saying that unlike the Jews and the Christians, there was no room for jizyah [tax] payment.” Although if you asked Glenn about the U.S. efforts @ Mt. Sinjar, it wasn’t really about “humanitarian intervention” but a pretext to get the U.S. foot in the door. Otherwise, you’re right though that anybody that gets in the way of the Islamic State is fair game. Shot in the back of the head, crucified, burned alive, whatever. Maybe your corpse will even make it on the next propaganda video along with a beautiful nasheed.
I will raise my hand in protest here. Once you start with such sweeping generalizations, you are entering into the realm of Greenwaldian commentary. Unless you have cataloged all of the Islamic political movements, I’m not convinced. Furthermore, it is all relative. After all, the Islamic State makes al Qaeda look like a bunch of amateur liberals in that the Islamic State and its predecessors – AQI, ISIS – subscribe to takfirism (other Muslims labeled apostates) when AQ does not. The Afghanistan Taliban for example, is not the bloodthirsty group that IS represents; hell, back in the 1990s, their reps were invited to the U.S. by the State Department. Their ambitions are Sharia in Afghanistan, not conquest across the ME. Again, you make great points when you provide specificity, but when it turns to broad strokes, it suffers.
As for my thoughts on Glenn’s shitty piece. Let me start with the title:
Is “click-baity” a word? Glenn, how do you quantify the threat to draw such a conclusion? Or more specifically, how does HRC’s desire to crack down on IS’ social media efforts pose a greater threat than the Islamic State’s recruitment efforts? Do tell. It may be news to you, but YouTube and Twitter has been actively terminating IS-related social media and propaganda accounts. Please explain how this represents a threat greater than allowing the Islamic State – unimpeded – from recruiting U.S. citizens to help the Islamic State’s efforts to conquest across Iraq and Syria, while murdering thousands, including Muslims; taking sex slaves; and attempting genocide against those they deem apostates? There is a huge marker in the sand that must be drawn between a desire to crack down on specific social media accounts and those that recklessly go after broad sections of the Internet as Posner is making. Under Posner’s idea, I’d be a criminal because I’m curious about the Islamic State publication “Dabiq” and its al Hayat media propaganda. Frankly, it’s a terrible idea, but that doesn’t mean his idea should not be discussed without resorting to the type of revulsion Glenn specializes in. However, HRC’s comment is absolutely legitimate. The government does, should, and will continue to pressure companies to tamp down on supporters of IS because propaganda and recruitment is critical to its success.
YouTube has already terminated content, such as in 2010 when it removed some Al-Awlaki videos (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/04/world/04britain.html). It will remove a video if they find it “depicted gratuitous violence, advocated violence, or used hate speech.” Furthermore, the government “exerting pressure” on private firms to cooperate in shutting down jihadist websites and chat rooms is not “unconstitutional.” You have no basis for such a claim as exerting pressure is not the same as mandating. Also, what if these jihadist forums and chat rooms are owned and moderated by foreign nationals, who aren’t even covered by the Constitution!? These decisions are not just driven by the USG but for business reasons. A for-profit corporation does NOT want to be described in the press as a hotbed for terrorist group propaganda and a great resource for making homemade bombs. Twitter prohibits a whole bunch of other stuff such as prostitution ads and adult or sexual products and services; the “sale or promotion of spyware or illegal hacking”; the “promotion of weapons and weapon accessories globally”; and online drug dealing.
What makes Glenn’s comments so disingenuous is that he cannot even acknowledge any threat posed by the Islamic State. Glenn’s implicit response to the threat of IS recruitment is inaction. Political reality does not exist in Glenn’s writing because he refuses to accept it exists. But his implicit statement is indisputable in that he believes Islamic State should get complete freedom of action to pervade social media because any alternative would be a violation of the First Amendment. Case closed. In Glenn’s absolutist mind, it is a zero sum game, which is easy to do when you disregard or outright ignore the individuals and institutions held accountable for protecting customers and the public. The American people do not subscribe to the “First Amendment as a suicide pact.”
The Islamic State is not merely advocating. Their propaganda constitutes an unmistakable call to action for people to join the Islamic State, which shamelessly commits terrorist acts.
So did they pledge allegiance to IS and Baghdadi or not. Because if they did, I think its fair to say they were “inspired.”
@ Nate
Pleaese provide a link to any statement by Glenn Greenwald to the effect that “Islamic State poses ZERO threat to anybody.” Thanks. What Glenn has argued, as have many, is that the Islamic State is a very slight statistical threat to everyone in the world except those in its physical proximity.
Presumably you’d agree, given their is ample data to support the proposition, but “right-wing extremist groups” in America are a much greater statistical threat to the lives of Americans than ISIS can or ever will be. Do you also support the US government or private companies blocking all KKK, violent evangelical Christian, Oathkeepers and a wide variety of anti-tax militia types in America from speaking freely, advocating or attempting to “recruit” believers or followers to their cause? Hell many of those groups advocate for the violent overthrow of the US on a daily basis. Shouldn’t their speech be the first to be banned since they are the most direct statistical threat to our lives and in closest physical proximity to us?
Glenn doesn’t generally do “implicit” arguments. People who like to prop up straw men and misrepresent what Glenn writes often do. Glenn has openly and expressly advocated not inaction, but a different form of action (i.e. a change in US foreign policies (economic, political and military) and diplomatic, peaceful and humanitarian assistance (i.e non-military interventionism not isolationism). And if you think anyone can shut down ISIS’ ability to recruit using the internet, you don’t really understand how the internet works.
Please define “political reality”. Is it a snapshot in time confined to minutes, hours, days, weeks or years–because as near as I can tell after 50 years, “political reality” is every changing and not static on about a daily basis given the inability of humans to access and analyze the vast amounts of data and relationships that create “political reality”.
Again, Glenn doesn’t usually do “implicit”. He has expressly stated that the idea of “governments” attempting to selectively ban and criminally punish speech is a) unworkable and/or ineffective, b) problematic in that what should or will be banned is purely subjective, c) the hallmark of authoritarianism throughout human history and subject necessarily to abuse, d) and in the case of America clearly against First Amendment jurisprudence going on hundreds of years except in the few narrow cases of unprotected speech — “incitement to imminent violence or lawlessness”, regulations re: accuracy in commercial speech, libel/slander and speech appealing to prurient interests with no redeeming artistic or cultural value (child porn vs. adult porn).
And yet of 1.3 billion Muslims on the planet only a statistical handful have answered that call. And as far as “shamelessly committing terrorist acts” many would believe and argue that America and the West have a long and demonstrable history of committing “terrorist acts”. So should those who point out that history, those facts and call on others to change America and the West’s policies be subject to having their speech quashed and/or imprisoned?
How do I provide evidence for something that doesn’t exist!? His commentary on IS, such as this article, refers to IS tangentially in the context of how they are the embodiment of blow-back from years of U.S. intervention in Iraq. That’s all he has to say! He dwells in the area of causation but ignores the effects and path forward! For him to say otherwise would be to either put his views on the line or contradict his narrative that ANY effort to restrict IS propaganda on social media is an affront to the First Amendment.
Is this the out of sight, out of mind argument? Let’s ignore for a second the threat it poses to the U.S., which I agree is tiny and dramatized. The Islamic State is primarily invading Iraq and Syria, further destabilizing an already compromised area, killing thousands of people, and attacking our allies. You may not like our allies, but they are allies nonetheless and in the case of Iraq have requested our assistance. I’m against boots on the ground but do feel we have the moral imperative to help since we helped breed this monstrosity.
As for the threat to the U.S., it is small and you can toss out some bullshit stats about the greater likelihood of getting killed by a runaway shopping cart, but terrorist attacks on the populace cause great psychological damage. We’re 15 years post-9/11 and people are still horrified of those events. The Islamic State isn’t a group of lunatics; they are led by smart and strategically adept individuals that are committing savage acts by design to terrorize those who may try to fight them. They know that like the Iraq Invasion before, if they can lure the U.S. into a ground war, they will again turn the ME into the jihadi battleground they desire and further exacerbate the “West versus Islam” narrative that is so critical to their goals.
The Islamic State does not need to commit a statistically significant number of attacks. If they can conduct a single operation on U.S. soil, they’ve succeeded, and shown that the U.S. can be vulnerable. Hell, if they can claim inspiration for an attack as they did recently, that is also a win. Americans, the spoiled individuals that we are, have little tolerance for this. Even worse, terrorism is inherently politicized and creates fear. If you want to gain and remain in power, you’d better not be seen as weak. I know it’s counterfactual but I believe that if Abdulmutallab had succeeded and took down that Detroit-bound airliner in late 2009, we’d be near the end of Mitt Romney’s first term. Obama would have been painted as a national security weakling and lost. So your notion of a “very slight statistical threat” is not as simple as it may appear.
Do the causes of these groups consist of conquesting across territory and subjugating the populace with a gun to their head? Does it include the execution of bound hostages, and concrete threats of violence and incitement? If yes to any of those, then YES, I do support the blocking of equivalent propaganda. However, I don’t think that’s a fair comparison unless the groups you mentioned are doing so on a systematic basis.
Actions matter. Billy Bob’s anti-tax band of yokels may yearn for the overthrow of Obama and advocate a coup that installs Carly Fiorina with her 3-page tax plan,but odds are they are just a bag of hot air. The FBI keeps an eye on these groups. The Islamic State is no longer Al Qaeda’s jay-vee as Obama regrettably said. They have shown that they can “walk the walk.”
Actually he does. Glenn’s major weakness is that he offers no alternative action to the Government actions he decries and will not articulate any type of path forward, so we are left with his implications. He is a naysayer, not a person with a plan of action and if you cannot at least attempt convey “the proper” path forward, you are taking the easy mudslinger route. He has a lawyer’s mindset in that he will use facts that bolster his, and only his, narrative. He isn’t out to paint a nuanced portrait but to prosecute his side full tilt (perhaps that’s why you can relate?) One example that stuck in my mind was during last year’s Munk Debate when Glenn IMPLIED that intelligence collection that worked against a nation state like the Soviet Union 30-40 years ago could work for an asymmetric terrorist threat:
Just like terrorists today, we surveilled the hell out of the Russians. But Soviet communications were on Soviet networks and could be intercepted at a single site, often by pointing a satellite at a facility or tapping directly into their infrastructure. We would intercept everything we could. Glenn implies that a more specific approach can be reproduced today despite technology rendering the landscape unrecognizable, and despite diffuse adversaries having their information commingled on the same networks that we all use!
To wind back to your initial comment about implicit arguments, let me ask you this: What does Glenn think the U.S. or the international community should do about the Islamic State? Good f**king luck finding something!!
I don’t think you can shut it down, but you can attempt to slow or undermine it. If the Islamic State’s recruiters keep having their Twitter accounts systematically shuttered, it will impact their recruitment efforts as they have to rebuild their followers list over and over again. It’s not a science nor is it instant gratification, but something that requires persistence and should pay off over time:
– Jessica Sterm, J.M. Berger, ISIS, The State of Terror
For this to happen effectively, there should be some degree of coordination between the media and USG. The question isn’t whether a line should be drawn on the relationship, the question should be properly defining where it is.
If you have political idealism and political realism on a spectrum, Glenn is smashed so close up to the former that there is no daylight between the boundary. Political realism must consider feasibility and real world experience. Idealism skips over the intricacies of running a government or program. Cicero:
https://books.google.com/books?id=i-Lg2gXcMkgC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false
But then again, maybe this is a bad quote as Glenn doesn’t even offer to take the helm…
The 1.3 billion Muslim figure (FYI it’s actually 1.6 billion) is irrelevant because I’m specifically referring to the Islamic State’s recruiters and supporters that are pushing out the content. As for those who believe that America and the West have long committed terrorist acts, more power to them, but the equivalence is weak. Take Nazi Germany for example. They did not broadcast their atrocities to the world, and I think even the strongest U.S. critics can admit that the U.S. is not doing so either. If the Islamic State wants to start their own social media sites under Sharia, they can certainly ban U.S. content in accordance with their misguided interpretation of religious texts. As for your last sentence, I can go onto Twitter right now and rail on and on about U.S. failures and shortcomings and say “Viva Revolucion!!” all from the comfort of my home, without fearing government reprisal. If that wasn’t the case, half of TI’s comment section would be behind bars.
Thanks Nate for your nice reply. I simply oppose the idea that the US (and Israel) are responsible for all of the evil in the world. How many times has the US been blamed for the war in Syria and the overthrow of the Putin puppet in Ukraine? However, I never have supported every US action because the US government has locally made some rather terrible tactical decisions since WWII.
The one thing which always needs to be remembered about Glenn is that he gave up a career in Constitutional Law to write political articles. His articles are very much politically motivated. As a lawyer, he is exceptionally good at the use of the English language (as you noted in your response).
Sometimes, what Glenn doesn’t say says a lot about his political motivations. For example, he is correct that Muslims should not be collectively punished for the actions of a relatively few (several articles recently on this topic), but during Operation Protective Edge, when Jews were threatened in Europe, no one at the Intercept (or Glenn) ever said one thing to defend Jews although that was clearly collective punishment of Jews for the actions of Israel (I have yet to see one article in the Intercept which acknowledges that Jews were targeted as a part of the Charlie Hebdo massacre). Of course, Greenwald sets the bar for his multitude of followers which is why certain types of bigotry (borderline and blatant) are acceptable below the line here.
Thanks. I always read your posts with interest.
“I certainly don’t think their right to espouse these dangerous ideas ought to be suppressed or punished. The solution to their dangerous ideas is to confront and refute them, not outlaw them. But it is vital to recognize the danger they and their ideas entail. We’ve been told for years that The Terrorists “hate our freedoms,” yet we cannot seem to rid ourselves of those who think the solution is to voluntarily abolish those freedoms ourselves.”
Is a superb summary of your excellent article.
Censorship seems to be a universal desire.
Yes. As is the delusion on the part of those embracing it that their own speech will always and forever fall under the umbrella of that which is deemed ‘acceptable’.
Some of you might remember free speech zones. I think the second amendment serves as such an area for the first amendment. It is even dual purpose: first, it provides a reason for those who think their freedoms could be abridged to be assured that they are not. That is, as long as they have guns, they are fighting off the government, at least in their minds. Second, it diverts the energy of many of those who would fight for their freedoms away from actual encroachments. That is, as long as you can fight for the second amendment, all you other rights must be doing OK.
I think it is amazing how otherwise apparently intelligent people (able to talk, even write) think that guns protect their rights. Perhaps it is the result of viewing too many westerns in their youth.
That is, as long as you can fight for the second amendment, all you other rights must be doing OK.
When I talk to the staunch second amendment defenders in my life, I am actually struck by how singular their approach to “defending their constitutional rights” actually is. Many are unable to even articulate the premises involved in other prominent amendments such as the first let alone grasp why the erosion of these rights might someday affect themselves and their community.
Yes, and I think faith is an important part of this, just as many of the very religious are unable to tell you what is actually in the Bible, or any other religious text.
Great article Glenn. Needed to be laid out and you did it very well. Thank you.
ISIS is a creation of Western powers, and here is proof:
“According to Karim al-Nouri, spokesman for the Popular Front’s Badr Organization, one of Iraq’s most prominent Shiite militias, their forces were able to secure enough data from the dead ISIS terrorists’ bodies to directly implicate Turkey in involvement with Islamic State (IS, formerly ISIS/ISIL) affairs. While the terrorists meticulously destroy any possible evidence in possession of their fighters by burning their corpses along with any electronic devises carried by them, Shiite militia was able to secure some hard data.
“Recently we found a few of their phones which have messages of their orders, coordinates and data on movement of their people,” Nouri told RT. “The problem of ISIL did not just appear out of the blue, somebody is allowing them to freely cross borders… I want the audience to know the extent to which Turkey openly supports ISIS.”
Among the evidence which Nouri claims is now in possession of Iraqi intelligence are photos showing Turkish President Erdogan’s son doing business with ISIS representatives.
“We have photo material and comments on Erdogan’s son, material where he meets with ISIS heads,” Nouri said. “There is nothing fabricated in this case, there is no photoshop. These shots are real. They were made public by ISIS commanders themselves.”
https://www.rt.com/news/327052-iraqi-militia-isis-turkey/
Exactly right:
https://www.rt.com/news/327222-isis-fighters-turkey-training/
“Turkey is training Islamic State terrorists in a camp disguised as a training ground for the Free Syrian Army, a 20-year-old jihadist captured by the Kurdish YPG told Sputnik. The prisoner said Ankara’s help to the “moderate” Syrian opposition is not as innocent as portrayed.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb_qHP7VaZE
BRIAN> Are you ISIL
REG: Fuck off!
BRIAN: What?
REG: ISIL? We’re the Islamic state of Syria! ISIL?. Cawk.
FRANCIS: Wankers.
BRIAN: Can I… join your group?
REG: No. Piss off.
BRIAN: I didn’t want to sell this stuff. It’s only a job. I hate the Americans as much as anybody.
ISIL: Shhhh. Shhhh. Shhh. Shh. Shhhh.
REG: Schtum.
JUDITH: Are you sure?
BRIAN: Oh, dead sure. I hate the Americans already.
REG: Listen. If you really wanted to join ISIS., you’d have to really hate the Americans.
BRIAN: I do!
REG: Oh, yeah? How much?
BRIAN: A lot!
REG: Right. You’re in. Listen. The only people we hate more than the Americans are the fucking ISIl.
ISIS.: Yeah…
JUDITH: Splitters.
ISIS.: Splitters…
FRANCIS: And the Al Quaeda
P.F.J.: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Splitters. Splitters…
LORETTA: And the ISIS.
P.F.J.:Yeah. Splitters. Splitters…
REG: What?
LORETTA: The ISIS. Splitters.
REG: We’re the ISIS!
LORETTA: Oh. I thought we were Al Quaeda.
REG: Al Quaeda C-huh.
FRANCIS: Whatever happened to Al Quaeda, Reg?
REG: He’s over there.
P.F.J.: Splitter!
Hello, normally it wouldn’t be I’d leave a comment here. Yet quite right!! Free speech is a precious and free thing.
The recent Paris attack serves to illustrate for me. Upon that day, and as I scanned and read news etc and sites. I found an article of A certain crew, and it purported that a false flag attack will be ultimately discovered to have taken place.
I was appalled as the final tali of dead had not even come in by that time. So, I ripped into the comments and let the site get a telling from me. I really punched their buttons
Never-the-less, my reason for mentioning this here. Is that upon reflection and also as I had read from this site at other times. I next left a comment the following day and spoke up in behalf of free speech. Asked the site not to drop out of my stream and to indeed continue in any free fashion or manner it found to.
Upshot: the site curbed or bent or arced itself and over a short period I believe it didn’t shift from. But did look to more salient evidence for its statements. That is, false flags and such notions are still mentioned, yet of Paris…?! Well, I find the site reasonably better informed by its own outlook now and evidence it uses.
Point: I think I mean that freedom is free to assert and counter in dialogue and even arguably argument too. It’s all free for expression except that hideous action of harm upon another, physically.
We in the West are such sorts we learn this. The law stands in all other cases of harm upon the person. I’d suggest to enhance this freedom and not curb it. Mr Greenwald is correct.
Thanks, outta here and g’day.
Glenn, I just gave you a high-five.
“For the reasons I set forth here, no human beings or human institutions should ever be trusted to promulgate lists of Prohibited Ideas and Viewpoints. But even if you are someone who yearns for such lists, it SHOULD (my enfasis added) be immediately obvious that your dream of prohibiting ideas is utterly futile,”
If it were ” immediately obvious that prohibiting ideas is utterly futile,” 4 generations of my family would have spoke of being designated the enemy and interned during WWII because we are Italian. I Phil Ferro might have dodged the Vietnam draft into Charlie Company and still be alive today instead of accepting the draft as an American citizen duty.
Phil Ferro’s dad NEVER said a word to him about what the government did to him and his family during WWII. Not one word was spoken of, ever. Phil Ferro might have burned his draft card? Phil Ferro might have gone to the Olympics for track? He had a gift of God to run at God’s speed………….
Phil Ferro’s was murdered by our Government. The Government didn’t allow our family’s speech of the “Enemy” designation and treatment and eliminated his choice by drafting him which eliminated his LIFE, LIBERTY and THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS.
What Glenn, Laura, Snowden and the rest of TI is doing could save a life of a loved one? Please Glenn, never stop……
Too many emotions to coherently comment. I think I revealed too much family crap here and I apologize…………. All of that stuff just to say, “I agree with you Glenn.”
The NEED of the fake U.S.A. to shut down web-sites
is right in line with arrogance of so many of its citizens
who NEED to believe in the corrupt corporate owned
political parties, despite all of the evidence that those
parties are servants of corporate corruption.
This NEED to deny the existence of whatever doesn’t support
their NEED to believe is found as often in liberals as conservatives.
The machinery of this corporate capitalist corruption runs
on willful ignorance whether labelled democrat or republican.
How many times has C-ass Sunstein’s wife Samantha Power
stayed away from the UN when someone speaks who challenges
her corporate owned misrepresentations?
She is still portrayed as if she is a pacifist after the numerous
times she has called for bloodshed under the false claims
of spreading democracy.
They depend upon denying whatever evidence doesn’t support
their willful ignorance and arrogance.
It is also how Obama was elected. He made it clear that he
wanted more of the same ( as Bush ) in his campaigns and
so many of the people who voted for him repeatedly
continue to refuse to see his administration for what is is.
The parallel of the fake government’s NEED to
unconstitutionally collect ever bit of information about
innocent people under the lie of “security” while it
needs to NOT hear where those who are angriest are
coming from is like a toxic frosting on their
putrefying baked goods.
If they were to learn something from those angry voices
(which they enable)
it would probably be bad for their preferred “business.”
Absolutely! In my experience the only group more delusional than Right wingers is Hillary supporting Diamond Dems!
We the people must reverse and repair the sedition of our Constitution and restore a Republic where legitimate debate can occur protected by the rule of law. Only when our rights are fully restored have we the safety and strength to argue over any of them. Free speak in the extreme will be needed for this.
I’m not a gun fondler but it is clear to me that 1st amendment limitations should be met with 2nd amendment demonstrations. First amendment restrictions are a call to get off your ass and fight.
Well said that man. That’s why elitist all and political sundry are suddenly so keen for gun control. Careful now, the Second Amendmentists will soon be the name of a terror group…
Powerful article, Glenn. Thank you. Hopefully it will remove a few heads from their respective ***es.
Glenn, I agree with you, and largely because I believe that the quality of the principals in the US political system are intellectually and morally incapable of affecting any improvements to the US Constitution, even though they are sorely needed. But just as a thought experiment, one might imagine what would happen were the US to replace the 1st Amendment with Artikel 2 of the German constitution (“Grundgesetz”), which I think enables action to be taken against the practitioners of hate speech and incitement to violence without restricting the right to express ideas.
One of the dangers faced in the US is that many have a definition of “freedom” that is intermingled with that of “anarchy”. This is not new; it started with Locke.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Democratic_Party_of_Germany . This shows at once that (a) the prohibition is not extraordinarily effective, and (b) despite – or because of – their law the Germans have actually rallied more ‘far-right’ membership than Americans do.
The German exceptions are a bad idea that can be seen as an act of desperation in a state of war where the line between speech and action was hard to recognize dispassionately. They could clearly get rid of them now and be better for it.
I would say that in general, exceptions to free speech are like holes in the bottom of a boat: when they are small, they seem like somebody else’s problem. For example, the U.S. bans child pornography, and children get abducted worldwide to produce allegedly several billion dollars yearly in black market porn. As long as you’re not one of the kids getting abducted for bucks, or someone who gets in the way of the organized criminals selling the stuff, it’s not your problem, and you scarcely think about it.
However, a society has only a limited ability to absorb and compensate for the damage done by such things. There are only so many counselors, so many cops … eventually, all social order can break down and it’s the law of the jungle. Every time you poke a new hole in the bottom of the boat, the bilge pumps get closer to the point where they’re not going to do the job. And how close are we now?
The NDP commands less than a 5% share of the German electorate as compared to some 30% for the extreme right in the US. And that does not even count the Nazis – a party that is legal in the US but not in Germany. So I take exception to your statement that the Grundgesetz promotes Nazism. That is a completely laughable proposition.
My impression from things like http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/04/german-national-democratic-party_n_1853764.html is that the NDP is more “far right” than Trump supporters – but it’s hard for me to prove that. As for American Nazis, they are essentially absent as a political force; their nominal membership is tiny. Unfortunately, that isn’t the whole story, no, because openly segregated prisons have encouraged the growth of race-based gangs, whose violent clashes have bred all sorts of racial extremism within that context. And I fear that prisons are truly the vanguard of society. But I’d suggest that the flaws of German censorship are being compensated by its lesser emphasis on prisons.
When an elephant stands on your foot, you don’t debate about its posture, intentions or direction of approach. Other countries don’t have virtually unlimited access to money through control of banks and global industries and virtually unchallengable legal system and a virtually impregnable location and virtually unstoppable access to most global digital communications and a virtually limitless capacity to engage in war and a virtually unrivalled lead in the technology stakes all in the hands of a virtually uncontrollable and utterly unaccountable ruling elite hell-bent on having their cake and everyone else’s and eating them all and asking for seconds, thirds and so on.
Take the power away from the megalomaniacs and then the Gun Problem can return to crying over shot family members and shoppers down the mall, and a whole lot of other boons may be experienced, too.
If the terrorists don’t get us, then the anarchists surely will.
It’s not that supporters of speech restrictions can’t imagine themselves on the wrong end of these rules, it’s just they are publicly pledging to change their positions if that were to ever happen.
I could not agree more! But I will add that denying these people freedom of speech is a strategy meant to lose.
The thing that differentiates a War on Terrorism from a war with Imperialist Japan is that those conducting it have nothing to really fear. If we had carried on the war with Japan badly enough, they would have flown long-range jets loaded with biological toxins over the California beach houses of the rich and famous. But no matter how many nuts with knives rally to Awlaki’s cause, those in charge have enough security not to worry about them – hell, they probably have enough security to make sure their names are never even mentioned, let alone their addresses.
So the big threat that keeps the anti-terror warriors up at night is pretty simple: they win. Americans don’t rally to the ISIS banner, the incidents are insignificant beside domestic murders, even the Muslims adopt a disturbingly peaceful attitude. And the U.S. is definitely close enough to that right now to scare them.
So what to do about it? Fight the only war that matters – the war for their careers and continued funding. Let in as many radical Islamists from Kosovo and Chechnya and Syria as they can talk people into, then harass them night and day to try to make them snap. If none do, set up some idiot to look like a threat. Ban discussion of ISIS ideas to make them look like they must be as sensible as ours.
It’s farming, all farming … farming “terrorists” to bring to the marketplace. But to the rest of us, it looks like they’re fighting to lose.
The threat and fear are very real to Those in Power, but not to all of them at any one time. Four Presidents have been assassinated, whilst two have been injured by attempts with around 20 other known instances of such. 3,000 people died in the 9/11 attacks, and an estimated $1trillion was lost. But politicians are nothing if not Opportunists by their very natures, and they have seized the forlock of the passing Kairos and decided now is the time to take advantage and go for the Big End Game, and the suppression of resistance at home is a major concern, and hence the new stance against gun ownership – they fear an armed Civil War more than anything else – no army on Earth could attack America, except one made up of Americans themselves. This is not lost on a nation born of such a Revolution. They know there will be casualties, but they have an amazing spying network, a docile press, a military-styled police force, a load of allies in the West, and a pot of taxpayer cash to pay for it all. But they are power-crazed people that fear Death and Failure and Loss and Mediocrity infinitely more sharply than us mere mortals ever could. And that is why we will win.
They have to constantly and expensively manufacture Fear for us that lessens in impact at every play, but all we have to do is hold up a billion mirrors to them and pause for effect.
What if they can’t be refuted? Suppose someone were to argue that the US political system was currently dysfunctional, causing damage as it cast about for scapegoats while squandering resources on foreign wars and that fundamental reform was required. This is obviously ridiculous, yet thanks to the state of the US education system, the ability to make a reasoned counterargument might currently be in short supply. Obviously a bad idea should not be allowed to flourish, simply for want of a good counterargument. That leaves suppression as the only alternative.
There would still be a large tent available to espouse government approved ideas. Only fringe, disreputable ideas would be outlawed. This would be a boon for mental health, since the distress caused by trying to think imposes a tremendous hidden toll on society. Drug abuse and anti-social behavior are all initiated by bad personal decisions. It’s time to acknowledge that people are just really bad at making decisions and need a benevolent government to direct their actions. This is especially important at this critical juncture in history, when governments have acquired the technical means to surveil and monitor all those actions.
The First Amendment was never intended for the masses but rather for educated gentlemen farmers with slaves to perform the drudge work, leaving the landowners free to engage in lofty intellectual debates among themselves. Even in those controlled conditions, it was a dangerous proposition. Now, it is indeed a suicide pact.
Are you suggesting, Duce, that instead of doing away with the 1st Amendment, we add a 28th, consisting of Article 65 from the Soviet Constitution? [“A citizen of the USSR is obliged to respect the rights and lawful interests of other persons, to be uncompromising toward anti-social behaviour, and to help maintain public order.”] Of course, we’d have to change USSR to USA. But the anti-social behavior clause worked quite well for them; you could ask Alexandr Isayevich if he were still alive.
Silly old fascist getting confused again for the sake of a bit of cheap and ineffective satire. The “Suicide Pact” in America is the belief in the American Dream, not Freedom of Speech. This is far more intoxicating and rageful insanity-inducing than even 72 Houris buffed up and legs akimbo ready to go for all eneternity (let me pause on that last thought for a moment…)
Where was I?
Speech is always free as it is very difficult to stop it even with laws. Anyone can talk, say whatever they like. You write bullshit on here every day. Words do not equate to actions or even beliefs – I can say “dick” all day, but it is only when I stick it in someone’s arse does anything truly interesting begin to happen. And that’s where the American Dream comes into play.
And 72, that’s either too much or plain just not enough for me, given all Eternity.
Sometimes I say: LOL when all I did was maybe smile. This time I really did laugh out loud a lot. Thanks.
What if they can’t be refuted!?
That’s what Cass Sunstein says: “What if more speech doesn’t work, and the result is that dozens, hundreds, or thousands of people are killed?”
*Btw, have you been cognitively infiltrated? (Sunstein previously proposed that the U.S. Government “cognitively infiltrate” the internet by sending teams of covert agents into “chat rooms, online social networks, or even real-space groups” to discredit what he regards as false conspiracy theories, as well as pay so-called “independent” credible voices to bolster the Government’s messaging).
Alas, Sunstein’s remedy (“To minimize the danger to free speech, it might be best to combine Hand’s approach with a form of balancing: If (and only if) people are explicitly inciting violence, perhaps their speech doesn’t deserve protection when (and only when) it produces a genuine risk to public safety, whether imminent or not.) clearly indicates he is not following the Presidential Debates.
Many Americans have been led to think that Freedom is somehow a unique gift of America, that it springs from the beautiful words and documents of the godlike Founders, or is granted through the blood and sacrifice of those who “fight” “for America”. There’s an impoverishment of thinking about the relationship of class struggle from below, I mean the responsibility of civilians to DO class struggle from below — which no one but the Left pays attention to — and the securing and exercise of freedoms and rights. The parameters and quantity [not the right word I mean, but] of the rights is determined by the degree to which the working class has developed and exercises its Power (another concept which evades analysis by most Americans). Similarly, the American public doesn’t seem to understand how the rights of working-class inhabitants of North America are related to the whether the American public stops the US- and European based capitalist class from violating the rights of our Brothers and Sisters all over the world. Rights and freedoms are inter-related and interdependent, and require the persistent, active application and participation of individual and collective power from below against the violence and totalitarian agenda of the ruling class.
see
The Two Faces of Class Struggle: The Motor Force for Historical Regression or Advance
petras.lahaine.org/?p=1934
@Vivek Jain –
You said: “Many Americans have been led to think that Freedom is somehow a unique gift of America, that it springs from the beautiful words and documents of the godlike Founders, or is granted through the blood and sacrifice of those who “fight” “for America”. There’s an impoverishment of thinking about the relationship of class struggle from below, I mean the responsibility of civilians to DO class struggle from below…”
Quite an interesting jumping off point. I don’t think the yearning for freedom came in a vacuum. I think it’s been around throughout history, in various incarnations. And it’s way too easy to forget labor history right here in the U. S. and the struggles to get the protections we now often take for granted.
I’ll just put in another thought here I’m not a fan of Tom Petty really, but his song Refugee is good. In particular the line: “Everybody’s had to fight to be free” —– we forget that many peoples all over the world have yearned for and fought for freedom. We should honor and recognize that struggle in others.
The true character of any country bubbles to the surface only when that country is facing adversity, especially external threats — either real or imagined. I have often seen that a lot of the ideals of democracy and free speech break down quickly when they face a threat. Western nations react in a manner similar to developing countries they roundly condemn for human rights violations.
“true character of any country” is a fiction.
I think the West has demonstrated its true character to the rest of the world long before now – since around 1500 when the Portuguese and Spanish set sail and the English and French and Dutch weren’t far behind and with bigger guns. We have demonised China after we sought to enslave its people with opium and waged war on it and broke it, despite China never once threatening the West ever. We have demonised Russia after waging war with her in 1812 and again in the 1850s and again in 1914 and again throughout the 1920s and again in the 1940s and then, after she broke the power of the Nazis at enormous and tragic cost and sought to protect her borders with satellite states, but never took the land as theirs, we named the the Ultimate Evil, and continue to do so even after the collapse of the Soviet Union and NATO’s impingement into the former Eastern Bloc countries. We have demonised weaker countries that dare to resist, like Laos and Vietnam and Cuba and Nicuragua, murdering their peoples in the millions and installing tin-pot hateful and brutal regimes. We make monsters out of countries like Iran and Korea and Burma that, though not entirely pretty, pose no serious threat whatsoever to our systems and existence and are generally less repulsive than some of our best allies, like Saudi Arabia and Israel. We sail the seas in ships armed with enough nuclear weapons to destroy entire civilizations, yet cry foul when a few men take up guns and curse us back. We claim we stand for democracy and freedom and success under meritocratic values, then create global monopolies that seek to sue whole countries. And our leaders say they do it all for our safety and our freedom, yet they are the perpetrators of all this madness.
We are disgusting and truly terrifying to anyone not ranked amongst our elites, and it is from this nadir of the human condition that we must now address the world and apologise for the last 500 years and desist in our imperialism and our patronising insistence that We Are Best and that we have the right to take whatever we want.
There must be an end to the bullshit lies of the Left and Right, to the insane Isms of the 19th and 20th Century, to thinking that any one group has the right to superiority over any other people, to labelling and politicising every argument and decision, to empowering and enriching an insane and unworthy minority.
We have these 100 years of the 21st century to do that or be the cause of our own downfall.
Beautiful summary of the historical record. I will save it for my files.
Couldn’t agree more, especially regarding the U.S. This country was founded by murdering the natives, stealing their land and destroying it, and kidnapping Africans and enslaving them to work the land. How anyone could claim that the U.S. is a great country is beyond me and is laughable.
True. It’s easy to sit on a high horse and criticize the politics of countries such as Cuba. Not all countries are under an illegal blockade and constant threat of government overthrow, however.
There are fairly good free speech/press protections in the US. But I contend that’s only because mainstream outlets don’t openly call for violent government overthrow.
Free speech is not only being attacked from the right (and right leaning) trying to combat ISIS and terrorism. It is also being attacked from the left trying to shoot down any “dissenting” opinion on a myriad of social issues. All you have to do is read any of the many articles about what is happening on our college campuses.
If anything it is worse than the Govt trying to limit terrorist speech that advocates violence. A lot of the speech that is being limited is direct political speech that contains no violence at all but is being limited for no other reason that people are getting their feelings hurt.
Syria Becomes the 7th Predominantly Muslim Country Bombed by 2009 Nobel Peace Laureate
https://theintercept.com/2014/09/23/nobel-peace-prize-fact-day-syria-7th-country-bombed-obama/
I am tempted to blame this on a lack of drug culture among the nominators. Somewhere along the line they failed to learn a fundamental moral precept: never front the money.
Why don’t you provide a links to “any of the many articles about …”?
Really? No, the left is not trying to get the government to make the discussion of social issues illegal. It just is not. Perhaps you are confused as to what the first amendment does.
Any concrete examples? I’ve heard about this, but the only prominent examples I’m aware of are professor Salaita’s case and actions against students engaged in pro-Palestinian activism.
“Muslims do not hate our freedom, but rather they hate our policies,” in particular, “American direct intervention in the Muslim world,” our one sided support in favor of Israel,” support for Islamic tyrannies in places like Egypt and Saudi Arabia, and, “the American occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan.” As a result, trying to change Muslim perceptions of the U.S. without changing U.S. policies of imperialism and militarism is the ultimate act of futility.
Quoted from a 2004 study commissioned by then Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.
Exactly! One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter, as the saying goes.
And the reason for the U.S. imperialist policies in that part of the world? Drivers. Every drop of gasoline people consume is a vote for another oil war. So if you don’t support this, the first thing you have to do is give up your car.
Posner and his ilk have been a threat to our country for some time.
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/defending-the-indefensible/
~
ISIS claimed responsibility for the Garland attack, as they usually do, but at least from what I know, there is no evidence the attackers were radicalized through ISIS. From The Atlantic:
If there’s evidence that it was, I’ll certainly post an update noting that – though that would not, of course, change the overall argument at all.
While I agree with you that the government shouldn’t be able to restrict First Amendment rights in any way, I think you were mistaken when you wrote “there is still not a single example of a terrorist attack carried out on U.S. soil by anyone radicalized by ISIS’s social media campaign”.
Weren’t the attacks on the cartoon event in Garland, Texas inspired by ISIS social media? Maybe I’m wrong….