It’s been almost one year since millions of people — led by the world’s most repressive tyrants — marched in Paris ostensibly in favor of free speech. Since then, the French government — which led the way trumpeting the vital importance of free speech in the wake of the Charlie Hebdo killings — has repeatedly prosecuted people for the political views they expressed, and otherwise exploited terrorism fears to crush civil liberties generally. It has done so with barely a peep of protest from most of those throughout the West who waved free speech flags in support of Charlie Hebdo cartoonists.
That’s because, as I argued at the time, many of these newfound free speech crusaders exploiting the Hebdo killings were not authentic, consistent believers in free speech. Instead, they invoke that principle only in the easiest and most self-serving instances: namely, defense of the ideas they support. But when people are punished for expressing ideas they hate, they are silent or supportive of that suppression: the very opposite of genuine free speech advocacy.
French comic Dieudonné M’bala M’bala speaks to the media during a press conference in a theater in Paris, Jan. 11, 2014.
Photo: Michel Euler/AP
In the weeks after the Free Speech march, dozens of people in France “were arrested for hate speech or other acts insulting religious faiths, or for cheering the men who carried out the attacks.” The government “ordered prosecutors around the country to crack down on hate speech, anti-Semitism and glorifying terrorism.” There were no marches in defense of their free speech rights.
In October, France’s highest court upheld the criminal conviction of activists who advocate boycotts and sanctions against Israel as a means of ending the occupation. What did these criminals do? They “arrived at the supermarket wearing shirts emblazoned with the words: ‘Long live Palestine, boycott Israel'” and “also handed out fliers that said that ‘buying Israeli products means legitimizing crimes in Gaza.'” Because boycotts against Israel were deemed “anti-semitic” by the French court, it was a crime to advocate them. Where were all the post-Hebdo crusaders when these 12 individuals were criminally convicted for expressing their political views critical of Israel? Nowhere to be found.
More generally, the French government seized “emergency powers” in the wake of the Paris attack that it originally said would last 12 days. They were then extended to three months, and there is now talk, as the deadline approaches, of extending those powers indefinitely or permanently. Those powers have been used exactly as one would suspect: to barge into places without warrants where French Muslims gather, shut mosques and coffee shops, detain people with no charges, and otherwise abolish basic liberties. They’ve also now been used beyond the Muslim community, against climate activists. If that sort of classic, creeping repression does not anger and upset you, then you may be many things, but a genuine advocate of free expression in France is not one of them.
Even before the Hebdo murders, prosecutions in Europe against Muslims for the expression of their political opinions were common, especially when those opinions were critical of Western policy. Indeed, a week before Hebdo, I wrote an article detailing that growing threat to free speech in the U.K, France, and throughout the West. Those types of actions — carried out by the world’s most powerful governments — were, and remain, the greatest threat to free speech in the West. Yet they receive a tiny fraction of the attention that the Hebdo killings did.
Where were, and where are, all the self-proclaimed free speech advocates about all of that? It was only when anti-Islam cartoons were at issue, and a few Muslims engaged in violence, did they suddenly become animated and passionate about free speech. That’s because legitimizing anti-Islam rhetoric and demonizing Muslims was their actual cause; free speech was just the pretext.In all the many years I’ve worked in defense of free speech, I’ve never seen the principle so blatantly exploited for other ends by people who plainly don’t believe in it as was true of the Hebdo killings. It was as transparent as it was dishonest. Their actual agenda was illustrated by how they invented a brand new free speech standard specially for that occasion: In order to defend free speech, one must not merely defend the right to express an idea, they decreed, but must embrace the idea itself.
This newly minted “principle” is, in fact, the exact antithesis of genuine free speech protections. Central to an actual belief in free speech rights is the view that all ideas — those with which one most fervently agrees and those one finds most loathsome and everything in between — are entitled to be expressed and advocated without punishment. The most important and courageous free speech defenses have typically come from those who simultaneously expressed contempt for an idea while defending the rights of other people to freely express that idea. This is the principle that has long defined authentic free speech activism: Those ideas being expressed are vile, but I will work to defend the right of others to express them.
Those who exploited the Hebdo murders sought to abolish this vital distinction. They insisted that it was not enough to denounce or condemn those who murdered the Hebdo cartoonists. Instead, they tried to impose a new obligation: One must celebrate and embrace the ideas of the Hebdo cartoonists, support the granting of awards to them, cheer for the substance of their views. Failure to embrace the ideas of Charlie Hebdo (rather than just their free speech rights) subjected one to accusations — by the world’s slimiest smear artists — that one was failing to uphold their rights of free expression or, worse, that one sympathized with their killers.
This cheap bullying tactic — trying to force people not merely to defend Hebdo’s free speech rights but to embrace the ideas being expressed — has endured to this day (but only when it comes to speech critical of Muslims). A full year later, it’s still common to hear supporters of Western militarism falsely accuse portions of “the left” of having sanctioned or justified the attack on Charlie Hebdo solely on the ground that they refused to cheer for the content of Hebdo’s ideas.
This accusation is an absolute, demonstrable lie, an obvious slander. I’ve never heard a single person on the left express anything other than revulsion at the mass murder of the Hebdo cartoonists, nor have I ever heard anyone on the left suggest that the murders were “deserved” or that the cartoonists “had it coming.” I certainly did hear, and myself expressed, opposition to the relentless targeting of a marginalized minority in France by Hebdo cartoonists (that critique, just by the way, was most eloquently expressed by a former Hebdo staffer, Olivier Cyran: “The obsessive pounding on Muslims to which [Hebdo] has devoted itself for more than a decade has had very real effects. It has powerfully contributed to popularizing, among ‘left-wing’ opinion, the idea that Islam is a major ‘problem’ in French society”). But objections to the substance of an idea quite obviously does not denote or even suggest a failure to uphold the rights of free speech for those who express that idea: unless you’re endorsing the noxious, deceitful, entirely novel concept that one can only defend the free speech rights of those with whom one agrees.
But this all highlights that free speech was not the principle being upheld here; free speech was just a weapon used by some tribalistic Westerners to try to force people into cheering for anti-Islam and anti-Muslim cartoons (not merely the right to publish the cartoons without punishment or violence, but the cartoons themselves).
And what even more powerfully demonstrates the sham at the heart of this post-Hebdo spectacle is that before the Paris march, and especially since, there has been a systematic assault on the free speech rights of huge numbers of people in France and throughout the West who are either Muslim and/or critics of the West or Israel, and the newfound Hebdo free speech crusaders have exhibited almost no opposition, and at times tacit or explicit support. That’s because free speech was their cynical weapon, not their actual belief.
During a vacation in Lebanon with my girlfriend we where wondering the streets of Beirut, when an older man asked us to sit an have a chat. For a short moment we were uncertain but he convinced us to sit to group of other older gentleman who seemed to be bored and he started to ask us questions about our origin (germany) an what we did (tourists) and so forth. To our surprise the old guy started to sing german folk songs and spoke to us in fluent german. It turned out that we had met a group of professors of the American University of Beirut (AUB) and we started an interesting conversation about all sorts of topic. It was obvious that we had met a group of persons who were smart and more educated than we were.
At a certain stage one of the men started to complain about “political correctness” by which he meant that every criticism about jews or the zionists were not allowed. I was very surprised since this sort of complaint in Germany is restricted to those who want to babble on the vile nature of the muslims. We continued to talk and it soon came out, although he had claimed before to be marxist at heart, he thought Hitler was a great person for figthing the secret jewish-anglosaxian world domination. From there on he went to explain who “really” is in control of everything (the other Professors turned their back in sense of embarassement about their collegue).
In this case as well as in others there usually is a certain political perspective by those who complain about “censorship” and lack of free speech. The people in Germany who scream the loudest about this right now are those who are not content with Angela Merkels refugee policy. They claim that every oppositional opinion the so called “lügenpresse (lying main stream media)” will use to put them in the Nazi-corner.
But Mr. Greenwald would not go and write a lengthy article about the right of free speech of nationalists in Germany who say that all the refugees are an uncivilised women raping Europastan creating scourge. Why not? Because it is distateful. Similarly to describing the Charlie Hebdo writers “the world’s slimiest smear artists” (if i understand the author correctly) after nearly all of them were massacered. It suggests that some the marginalised minority just had enough of the abuse. Even if the author is repulsed by the act, he is an apologetic. They only did because of the…Similarly like Chomskys efford to Faurisson, it has a disgusting taste.
Still love you for the Snowden leaks. Peace
Thanks for that article which raise a high concern for me.
It is even worse than what you say, and even if US have better resistance to censor, it is far from immune, with raise of politically correct censorship, scientific groupthink (cold fusion/LENR, Climate).
In france there is also a huge anti-russian disinformation campaign, probably following US-led disinformation platform.
A film on Crimea was frbidden in France
http://fr.sputniknews.com/russie/20151216/1020337817/interdiction-film-crimee-censure.html
while fil supporting the Nazi Azov units was allowed, following article in Elle and Phosphote (teen ager educative magazine)were showing openly pro-nazi girls, with well known nasi logoas tatoo or as logo on their van.
http://lahorde.samizdat.net/2016/01/12/nantes-conference-annoncee-du-bataillon-azov-le-16-janvier/
it is clear today from US and french military as high as “General” whistle blowers , that western countries have supported ISIS and Al-Qaeda terrorists agains Al-Assad, and the media defend the anti-assad meme attacking most tentative to propose another point of view.
There is good reason to criticize Russina position, but clearly I am not sure they are more wrong than the America-Western-Block (as says DeDefensa with BAO term).
My feeling is that since the 70s, there have been an accelerating movement agains freedom of speech, and toward a “selected FOS” where freedom of speech is only accepted for NGO suppoted groups.
Jacques Atalli in a conference recently explained that elite children today goes into NGO, not politics, because it is where the real power is.
Problem is that NGO are much less democratic, takking their power from elite and media , not from the people selfish opinion.
More-so even than abetting terrorists is (seriously) questioning historical elements of “the Holocaust.” In France particularly (the Gayssot Act).
You CAN (and will) be burned at the stake for saying/believing the wrong things in Europe today, and elsewhere.
I read somewhere that Charlie Abdul ( or whatever the name is) is making fun of the little Syrian boy who was found dead on the Turkish shores.
I’m pretty sure when the French government kills 12 people for speaking freely, you’ll see those crusaders pop up again.
Just do a quick Internet search of “Mohamed cartoons”. Then “Jesus cartoons”. Then “Moses cartoons”. Only the blind (or the willfully blind) would not see that there is a double standard. Mohamed is constantly portrayed with his genitals exposed, committing acts of violence, etc. I cannot think of any other term than “baiting”.
What if Christians were confronted day in and day out with this kind of humor–Jesus exposing his genitals; Jesus in bed with a little boy; Jesus chopping off the hand of a woman trying to defend her husband (there is a Bible passage about this). What if we had a Jesus cartoon contest? And the biggest prizes went, not to the cutest ones (like you find all over the internet), but to the most vulgar? What would Texans (or Frenchmen) have to say about that?
I’m not saying that anyone should be killed (or even prosecuted) over a cartoon. On the contrary, I’m an absolutist on free expression. I’m just saying that there *is* a double standard on who gets mocked and how. And on how anti-bigotry laws are applied.
boy this is a complicated matter, free speech on the internet is a new thing …well before the founding fathers …would they agree about internet free speech ? no one knows , the variables are huge , for instance , no one , or most people will not carry out the things they type into a chat site . I would bet my life ..or a billion bucks (if I had it) that real time statistical info would prove internet talk is basically 99% fake fantasy communication ..we humans are complicated creatures , face to face communication is closer to a persons true intensions in matters of dangerousness to others ..and even in this case deeds ..not talk is what the real deal is on a person ..bottom line , if internet speech is considered “real” than we are in an age of having thought police be a reality .
>That’s because free speech was their cynical weapon, not their actual belief.
Right on, free speech only matters to them if they get to pick who is in the spotlight, now that they can’t, they are showing their true colors on the subject.
Merci beaucoup.
Comparing Dieudonné and Charlie is somewhat awkward. Dieudonné said some very questionable things over the last years that were ‘funny’ but not funny – some of those remarks come very close to what generally is understood to be hate speech.
While many comments on Charlie Hebdo might be quite pointy and edgy – I don’t think anything that has been published by CH ever had only the faintest hint of being xenophobic or promoting hate against any group of people.
Are you joking. Did you see Oct. 2014’s cover of the magazine. It’s low brow racism at its worst.
An image is worth a thousand trolls… In the following, two young Jewish gentlemen getting their kippas signed by Dieudonné… http://p1.storage.canalblog.com/11/12/1179742/92688325_o.jpg
Mr. Greenwald, merci pour votre courage.
They just haven’t had any Nazi-style Anti-Muslim marches to attend… lately
Thank you, Glenn, for all you do. Your article on why privacy allows space for personal spirituality was a miracle. Re the “free speech” in Europe, etc, well, we know who THEY are. And we know what they plan…..so everyone now is getting a choice to choose their position. Keep up the good work, Glenn. The cynics are out, but they are losing their will. These corporations that are folding down deserve to die.
This article conspicuously declines to mention that France — wrongly, in my opinion — also prosecutes anti-Muslim speech. The notion the law is only deployed over anti-Israel or Jewish speech is demonstrably false, though it fits the narrative being told.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/20/marine-le-pen-trial-charged-anti-muslims-hate-speech
and:
‘My device is not working right .’
Shouldn’t that the words for the introduction of every wunderbare Weisheit des Internets?
General Hercules
You wrote:
” We haven’t heard for many months from “AmericanGestapo” and “E C” who are similarly subjected by those monstrous electromagnets spewing hyper-nano rays. Do you think they are still around? ”
As a perp you should know. Or is this your way of telling us that you and your lot have helped them to be not around?
Never betrayed America, so excuse me if I sound amateurish…
I suspect they have joined the #UnitedHypochondriacs twitter club.
“That’s because free speech was their cynical weapon, not their actual belief.”
Very true and well said. You will know things are not free whenever you notice there is an authority adjudicating on freedom, or when there is a price tag, or when someone is badgering you to accept something and tells you that you don’t have to pay.
I am especially suspicious of unsolicited phone calls telling me that I have won a free trip to Maui. Really? That trip offer is a trap.
It is delusional to think anything is free. Except, of course, crude oil will soon become free the way it is in free fall.
and I have this theory that the world -(and TI and this comment section and Glenn Greenwald) – is all part of a conspiracy to make them jump over the cliff – or jump some fish – or selfdestruct or however you want to call it?
Like – is there a better way to completely dismantle yourself than having some blog on the Internet? – All these words you have to write – day in – day out which always can be held against you – and ultimately only make you undesireable for any kind of conversation about the real purpose of life: Discussing How the Towers fell – or do Zionists rule the World.
-(Just joking – Okay!)
So – what’s really the purpose of live?
I would say ‘Art’ – and as an alternative putting your Face in a Pie – and whoever does it most beautiful -(like this sister of mine who face-slams bread) will finally win.
So there might be hope for Mona? -(I just couldn’t resist) – as she always was an ‘artist’ – just like her BFF my friend Glenn Greenwald.
Vic Perry
You wrote:
” So. Electromagnetic mind control. Well, I have to go. Somebody is throwing a switch right now and you know how hypnosis is. Must Get Back To Work. ”
——————–
Read the link of John Akwei St Clair vs NSA. Or go back to work. Or crawl into the crevices.
We haven’t heard for many months from “AmericanGestapo” and “E C” who are similarly subjected by those monstrous electromagnets spewing hyper-nano rays. Do you think they are still around?
Vic Perry
For you again:
You wrote:
“…reporters here from GG on tend to work on the assumption that it actually matters to document rather than just “find inexplicable holes” and jump immediately to wildly speculative conclusions, thereby skipping the whole boring middle part of making a case for … ”
The operative keyword in the quote above is ” reporters”.
Vic Perry, we are no reporters although that does not imply that we do not embrace, or practice, the integrity attributes exhibited by the team here.
Do you fancy yourself a reporter now???
Of course I’m not a reporter, what a bizarre parting question.
Now. The working methods of the bad conspiracy theorist made simple:
inexplicable holes —————–> unwarranted conclusion
The part represented by the arrow, which is the entire alternative narrative, never gets filled in, and can’t sustain the slightest scrutiny.
It would be one thing if you just did the “gee this is an inexplicable hole!” part, but the leap is always coming next — the “gee I guess the ENTIRE STORY MUST BE FABRICATED” conclusion. And it’s not convincing.
I don’t discount the possibility of conspiracies, lots of conspiracies have been real. Note that the official story of 9/11 involves a conspiracy: the conspiracy of the guys who took over the planes and had funding and planned it and everything. But that conspiracy, handed to you, is just tooooooooo boring, isn’t it, you need more excitement.
Vic Perry
My device is not working right . The Reply button will not work, so I’ll respond to you here. You wrote:
” Frankly, it surprises me that conspiracy theorists are even interested in The Intercept. Didn’t they just already “know” that the Gov was spying, and weren’t they just bored with the Snowden revelations, when some of them were not claiming Snowden must be a false flag himself? ”
Spot on. Some of us already KNEW that the gvt was spying. My computers were infected with vicious hard-to-detect rootkits with the freaking. C++, C and Assembly code modules, AND FULL COMMENTS left in obscure segments of the hard drive. ALL WITH THE NAME OF THE COMPANY, no ordinary company either. Another laptop, air-gapped, still managed to show a military IP address that was permanently connected to the unit, and which could not be removed. Many online complained of the very same IP address that was permanently connected to their computers. This was long before Snowden. And yes, the Snowden papers fucking proved us right. I could tell you more shit if you were worth it.
Did we have access to the Snowden papers to ‘prove’ it? No. And so before Snowden, we were labeled everything under the sun by the apologists of civil liberties abuses. Who is calling us conspiracy theorists now on the issue of govt spying? No one at home there.
But what this should inform you is that, more often than not, so called conspiracy theorists are often ahead of the pack, and that in time, they do and will, get proven right, but not always in a timely fashion because abusers and liars will always do everything under the sun to hide their tracks . Show me a killer who deliberately leaves his wallet and bloody weapon on the scene so the evidence could be easily obtained in a TIMELY FASHION . Snowden was sweet vindication .
————–
When some of us, by the thousand, claimed that we were being tortured savagely, 24-/7, with revolutionary military technologies that used guided electromagnetic energy as their core operational modules, accusations of psychosis were hurled at the – you guessed it – conspiracy theorists – from all directions, despite an historical record establishing such crimes in the past.
But when John Akwei St Clair in his case against the NSA revealed some of the technologies, in the following:
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/scalar_tech/esp_scalartech12.htm
every accuser crawled back into the crevices.
——————–
As to why we are here, as you appeared to wonder, we are here because we want to and because because we can be anywhere we want to be. But most importantly because some of us genuinely admire the work
of the journalists here and are deeply grateful to the founders of this site who made it all possible. And treasure the value of being informed.
I do not speak for all, of course. But relax. To each his own.
Well, no, you have not established that “more often than not, so called conspiracy theorists are often ahead of the pack, and that in time, they do and will, get proven right.”
So. Electromagnetic mind control. Well, I have to go. Somebody is throwing a switch right now and you know how hypnosis is. Must Get Back To Work.
How about calling pictures of Muhammad “fighting words.” Does this count as saying they had it coming?
This is such a failed, stupid attempt to win an argument with a knockout blow that I can’t help responding with an answer:
My comment here is, indeed, meant to be “fighting words,” and hopefully I have offended you. Alas, my comment would not give you an acceptable excuse for killing me.
@Vic Perry
So violence is ok as long as no one dies? If cartoonists just had their asses kicked really bad, then it’s cool?
Or is “fighting words” an argument that drawing pictures of Muhammad should be punished, but that the government should have a monopoly on such punishment/violence. It was argued down thread that government sanction is far more dangerous than violence by individuals.
Is this whole argument really only about a government monopoly over violence? Or maybe just opposition to the death penalty?
Do you support punishing people for drawing pictures of Muhammad? I certainly don’t.
You are so lost.
The answer to every single one of your questions is an easy, firm NO.
Let’s spin a scenario shall we? Let’s say it’s late Friday night in San Diego and I decide to approach a group of Marines in a parking lot of a bar they have just been drinking in. “Hey guys, want to see what a burning American flag looks like?” And then, when I get out of the hospital a few weeks later….
Now, did the marines have a “right” to kick the shit out of me? No. Are they protected by law? No. Were my freedom of speech rights infringed? Probably.
Was religion involved — cuz we know from the New Atheists that it’s mainly religion that produces all these irrational violent reactions, hmmph hmmph? No.
And yet. Do you sympathize with me? Or do you think I am obviously a friggin’ idiot for deciding to go antagonize people who would kick my ass just for doing this kind of thing.
There it is. The complications of life.
@Vic Perry
Let me say I am still much more interested in the idea that the true left can’t argue that killing over cartoons is ok, but that true muslims can actually kill over cartoons. And that somehow this disparity in belief over self identification is supposed to be considered pro muslim. That’s what started all of this.
But to answer your question:
Yes, I would sympathize with you and think that anyone who would do violence to you over nonviolent actions should be put in prison. I certainly wouldn’t think you are an idiot for burning a flag. I would think you are brave.
Are two men who decide to publicly show affection for each other also idiots for antagonizing bigots because they are beaten for being gay?
What is the difference between the two examples? Nobody forced them to publicly show affection for each other.
Is that just the complications of life?
I see the difference as that one is an act of love while the other is just designed to self-righteously piss other people off. I’m not that impressed with the bravery involved with the latter, in a world full of self-righteous people.
It’s not just about whether one has a “right” to do it, it’s whether you are really adding something valuable. Love is always worth adding.
@Vic Perry
Are you really arguing that people who burn flags don’t love their country enough and therefore should expect to have their ass kicked?
Or are you just arguing that all people who don’t show enough love–by your definition of love–should expect to have their ass kicked?
Let me try a different example to see if we can clarify your position.
Five people are protesting holding signs that say “Blasphemers against Islam deserve punishment”
Should they expect to get their ass kicked according to your moral judgment? Are they adding something valuable? Are they adding love?
In answer to your five rhetorical questions in this post: No. No. No. No. No.
Friendly advice for your future quarrels (this one concludes here, by the way): Avoid asking rhetorical questions. You are not particularly good at it.
@Vic Perry
So according to you–people who draw pictures of muhammad and US flag burners are idiots who should expect to wake up in the hospital. But people who publicly protest that “Blasphemers against Islam deserve punishment” aren’t idiots and shouldn’t expect to wake up in the hospital.
One advantage in opposing all violence aimed at speech is that I don’t have to keep naughty and nice lists about who should expect to spend weeks in the hospital for daring to open their mouths.
Also, these aren’t rhetorical questions. I wanted to hear your confession.
You should spend more time trying love people than trying to justify who should be beaten within an inch of their lives. Seriously, your marine scenario was ugly as hell–especially as a response to a question about pictures of muhammad.
Gregj
You wrote:
“Oh yeah… I’ve been a lurker here for a while. And almost was about to move on when I noticed the thread about 9/11 and the WTC… (You have got to be kidding me. That bogus crap does no one any good here – …”
I wish I could tell you something you’d rather hear but you will have no such luck from anyone posing questions on the tragedy.
To many like yourself, the official version of nine eleven is as truthful as the Gulf of Tonkin tale in Vietnam. As the WMD in Iraq. As in ‘ we do not torture ‘. As in ISIS oil trade ‘ not significant ‘. As the non-existent spy plane that flew over the former Soviet Union. One could go on forever…
The first two lies alone, cost millions of lives. Millions of human lives.
Of course I do not suppose that means anything to anyone who has consumed so many lies, for so long, that they have come to utterly disdain the truth.
To some, once you create a pattern of systematic lying to the public, they will subject each and every story you tell to microscopic scrutiny. Especially if there are inexplicable holes in it.
And if you have nothing to hide, then why the pained concern ? ( ‘you’ in this case is generic and does not refer to yourself although you may feel free to own it ).
So relax. To each his own.
Representatively disingenuous to say you are just “posing questions on the tragedy.” This is always the response when cornered: oh we aren’t claiming anything, we’re just posing questions. What bad conspiracy theorists do is claim “inexplicable holes”, leap to a conclusion the whole thing is made up or an inside job, and do nothing to fill in the gap and spoil the illusion that they’ve really cracked the case.
That is, they can’t or won’t be bothered with coming up with their own version of the tale that does not also have “inexplicable holes” in it. Usually motive problems, say in the idiotic idea that someone from the Guvmint thought that one more gun massacre story in 2012 would somehow magically transform the nation into gun control advocates. If that was a false flag, it was a mighty ineffective one.
Oh, and don’t give us Gulf of Tonkin and WMD’s in Iraq and ‘we do not torture’ as comparable “conspiracies” — because those lies were refuted definitively. Using evidence. On the other hand, you don’t have any fingerprints on a 9/11 inside job, just supposedly “inexplicable holes.”
Frankly, it surprises me that conspiracy theorists are even interested in The Intercept. Didn’t they just already “know” that the Gov was spying, and weren’t they just bored with the Snowden revelations, when some of them were not claiming Snowden must be a false flag himself? Other than The Intercept’s free and easy commenting policy, you’re really in the wrong place, because the reporters here from GG on tend to work on the assumption that it actually matters to document rather than just “find inexplicable holes” and jump immediately to wildly speculative conclusions, thereby skipping the whole boring middle part of making a case for How and even more importantly Why . By contrast, the whole GG, Scahill, Hersh, Goodman etc. approach involves actually, you know, finding and sharing evidence, making arguments, providing credible motives.
Craig Summers
You wrote:
” This is a completely erroneous analogy ” (re:South African boycott vs Israel boycott)
Why is apartheid South Africa dissimilar to apartheid Israel?
I agree with most of the article, especially free speech concerning protest at the summit, or israel boycott.
However, I disagree with the case of Dieudonne. There is a law in both belgium and france that forbids anti-semitism and racism, as well as the negation of the Shoah.
Dieudonne was sued many times, many if not most of the times he won (when he critisised israel or zionism). He lost when he uses the word jew instead and his speech was clearly anti-semitic. CHarlie Hebdo also uses humour in an offensive ways and was sued. The fact is that they were not convicted because their drawings were blasphemy, but not “hateful”.
1) Are you suggesting that the law against hateful speak should be removed? This is a whole debate and then the article should focus on that, with the Dieudonne Vs Charlie Hebdo case being just case studies instead of the main content of the article
2) Are you suggesting that the magistrate in France and Belgium are biased? If yes, then say so and make your case, I d be happy to read your argument, case by case, given the evidence of what DIeudonne said. However, if you believe (as I do) that the magistrate did their job properly in disentangling the fine line between hateful racist speech (forbidden by law) and humour, then you shouldn’t mention Dieudonne, as it weakens the general argument your are making, which is right. Or should you also defend Lepen who was condemned also under the same law when he said the “shoah, if it happenned, was only a detail of history” ??
Evidently. People are allowed to be critical of the laws of other countries, and often are.
Found this article interesting. As an American Muslim, I found that many family members and friends were vehemently against the drawings of the Prophet Mohamed (a.s). However, they were more disgusted by the actions taken against the Hebdo staff. One of the people killed was a Muslim police officer:
(http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/charlie-hebdo-muslim-police-officer-killed-in-paris-attack-commemorated-with-jesuisahmed-9966891.html ).
for the article by olivier cyran. And for everything you’re working on.
Can one of you passionate proponents of censorship please delineate and enumerate all of the examples of “hate speech” in these comments? It would be most enlightening.
(I actually tried to do it but…565 comments! You go Glenn Greenwald!)
‘It would be most enlightening.’
Why? –
I don’t think there are any examples here?
And I didn’t anything about being ‘ passionate proponents of censorship’ either?
You probably would be able to find a few examples if you would talk to the editors of a few French newspapers about some typical Hate Speech e-mail or letters they received but I doubt they would be ‘enlightening’?
Interesting how difficult it is to find a basic Voltaire quote from Traité sur la Tolérance – paraphrased – the one in power is the one that does not tolerate criticism: These are today the Zionists. Having a Jewish last name like me does not make me part of them. Zionists are a category of Jews who are into ruling the world. Addressed to them, there is another French quote by Jacques Abbadie, also 17th century: … ont pû tromper quelques hommes, ou les tromper tous dans certains lieux & en certains tems, mais non pas tous les hommes, dans tous les lieux & dans tous les siécles. Meaning at some point, the reaction from the people is inevitable. And the ones in power have to build large concentration camps. Being fed French food in prison is a good way of looking at that……
‘And the ones in power have to build large concentration camps.`
Let me answer as the German-American I am.
Right now there are big efforts in Germany to present Muslim Refugees NOT with ‘camps’ but to give everyone of them a ‘home’ some homeless people I spoke to last week in LA would like to have – saying – Europe tries it’s best –
In Germany –
In France – everywhere – and there always will be hateful people who want to built ‘camps’ or ‘walls’ – but who am I talking too – if somebody like Trump is running for the US Presidency?
Oh yeah… I’ve been a lurker here for a while. And almost was about to move on when I noticed the thread about 9/11 and the WTC… (You have got to be kidding me. That bogus crap does no one any good here – but that’s the point of Trolls, to move the conversation away from the main topic – which in this case, as most of you seem to have not understood it, is Free Speech. And shouting, “I’m free to post anything I want and don’t want to be censored! You’re the hypocrite!” is just someone being a child.)
About comment moderation… This is their website, not ours (or yours). There is no inherent right of users to have their views not modded. They pay for the server. They offer this forum as a service. There is no public right here. They can do anything they want! Don’t say disgusting or hateful crap and whine if it got modded.
Now, if they even delete comments here, we only have people saying that a comment of their’s was deleted, they could, as many forums do, replace the comment with something like: “Comment removed due to non-compliance with the rules.”
And The Intercept makes the rules for commenting on their website. If YOU had a website you’d feel the exact same way.
I think the low quality of conspiracy theory in the last 20 years or so has to do with the decline in action movie plots. Credible motives are gone. I mean subliminal advertising, various JFK plots, ancient astronauts —- these only collapse under some scrutiny beyond the question “why?” They satisfy basic motive conditions. The one that I never met a single reasonably intelligent person believe was the moon landing one. Not all that much bang for the buck there, and never quite clear either — were ALL the moon landings fake, or just the first one? And since it’s so easy to fake, then why have we not gone to Mars too?
Meanwhile, we have 9/11 truthers, who have never provided a credible explanation for why you’d fly some planes into buildings and then demolish them. I suppose no one really noticed the planes crashing into the buildings but then when the buildings fell, especially the all important #7, WELL. Now everyone is paying attention.
Oh, and you go to all that trouble and then “make the hijackers” all Saudis — in order to get everyone to invade Afghanistan & Iraq, you see….and then once your evil plan works, can’t even be bothered to plant some WMDs in Iraq to be triumphantly “found”.
Motive problems. I didn’t think it could get worse, but I am an optimist.
So now we have Sandy Hook truthers, who are even dimmer on the subject of motive. For what American would actually still think as late as 2012 that one more gun massacre would somehow be the straw that broke the camel’s back on the question of gun control? I guess it must have been the most ineffective false flag ever then, eh guys? Wonder why they even bothered…..
Well Vic, if I was paying attention correctly, no planes crashed into bldg #7. And absent a catastrophic impact like that, I’ve never seen a building of that size collapse like that due to ‘fire’?
*also, the debris field I’ve seen of the 757 flying (+400mph) into the Pentagon at close to ground level by untrained pilots … is very difficult (for me) to understand, but I suppose possible.
Well Vic, iirc, the original AUMF to invade Afghanistan (and Iraq) was (is) based on the ridiculous notion invasion/occupation of those countries was (is) an appropriate response to *9/11*!
*and the (still unresolved) Anthrax attacks shortly after 9/11 … which Glenn has addressed in the past.
…
Long story short: notwithstanding all these legitimate ‘questions’ by so many surrounding the events of 9/11, I am most anxiously concerned with the subsequent completely-out-of control U.S. response to it (the ‘stupid’ wars as President Obama proclaimed when… running for President!).
Also, as I understand it, Glenn prefers that ‘commentary’ on every dang thing he writes about does not devolve into highly technical shouting matches about the relative ‘truthiness’ of 9/11. *having now wasted a good hour on it myself … I can appreciate his position. :)~
My comment concerned Credible Motives, Lack of, in several contemporary conspiracy theories. Your reply to me avoids the question of motive entirely, making it non-responsive.
So again. Let’s just take one example regularly invoked. Supposedly there’s no way #7 collapses “just from” a fire, because this doesn’t happen, right? (as if jet airliners have crashed into some of the tallest buildings in the world regularly enough to have provided some kind of basis of normality for comparison.)
But never mind about that, we still need motive. Why, please, would “they” collapse #7 a few hours later? Can conspiracy theorists name one even remotely plausible motive for “them” to suddenly deliberately demolish that building several hours into the 9/11 event?
It’s not enough for conspiracy theorists to hide behind the claim to just be asking “legitimate questions,” present no credible alternative narratives (most especially on the question of motive), but at the same time announce “it’s a false flag” or “it’s an inside job”. They lay heavy meaning on inconsistencies but conveniently avoid producing alternative explanations that, I’m guessing, would have even more inconsistencies than the official narratives.
No motive, eh? Might I suggest justification for the Patriot Act and massive expansion of the surveillance state , military action against half dozen Muslim nations (who just coincidentally happened to have significant oil reserves), billions of public funds channeled to defense and security contractors, distraction from corrupt and exploitative economic policy, etc. Any one of these is conceivably enough to justify the sacrifice of a few thousands “nobodies” in certain circles if power. There’ plenty of evidence of this sort of thing happening in other societies (and, historically, considerable evidence of manipulation of the public to support war and curtailing of freedom even in our shining beacon). If course that couldn’t posdi happen here these days because…uh.. reasons? You can certainly arguely strongly for there sufficient concrete evidence of such a conspiracy, but no motive?! That’s on a level of denial and delusion that would make even tinfoil-crowned heads shake in disbelief.
Dude, if I were Dr. Evil or The Joker or Dick Cheney and I managed to pull off 9/11 as an inside job, I would not have been satisfied with anything less than imposition of martial law and total suspension of democracy. And if it were, apparently, that possible to be done (LOVE how conspiracy people think these kinds of massive operations with zero people talking can so casually be puled off), I would have ensured such a result by scaring the hell out of everybody with another 9/11-scale-attack about 6 months later, just when Americans had started to breathe a bit easier.
But I’m not Dr. Evil or The Joker or Dick Cheney, who are fictional characters by the way, well maybe not Dick Cheney.
One more thing. Why demolish buildings if you have already flown planes into them. What’s the motive for demolishing building 7 a few hours after the planes crash, since we “know” the other thing couldn’t cause it?
These are the motive problems I speak of. Obviously a big terrifying event helps provide support for authoritarian moves. But that doesn’t explain these huge problems with motive in the alternative narrative.
And as usual, subject change from the people who are asked these rather obvious questions. Here’s your chance, blow my mind and explain why one would both have planes crash into buildings and then demolish them. Go.
The outpouring of oblivious bigotry is simply amazing and depressingly amusing.
Okay!! –
Let me take you all back to the year 2014 to France – where the Hate Speech against ‘Immigrants’ and especially Muslims had become very troubling –
And so the new Minister of Education, Higher Education, and Research,
Najat Vallaud-Belkacem a French-Moroccan Muslim, who in 2003 had lead a a fight against discrimination and racism in her hometown Lyon – demanded from Twitter to filter out hate speech – not only the racist ones but also the homophobic ones.
So far to the idea of some commenters here – that it is all about ‘political speech’ – AND to any suggestions – which might come up -(again?) – that the French Laws against Hate Speech are mainly Laws against Muslims –
And the Irony – that these Laws – now considered by uninformed Americans as ‘Anti-Muslim Laws’ are actually were enforced much stronger than ever before goes even deeper –
Because one of the Free Speech Advocates who attacked the Muslim Minister for her efforts to protect Muslims and other Immigrants against Hate and Racism was nobody else than –
Glenn Greenwald – writing for the British Guardian.
And so his words about ‘a systematic assault on the free speech rights of huge numbers of people in France and throughout the West who are either Muslim and/or critics of the West or Israel – could have had the very important addition – that BEFORE the assaults from Muslim Murderers – the Hate Speech Law actually was enforced to PROTECT the french Muslims.
How utterly ironious?
To those who hate Mr. Greenwald…
Did you even read the essay? Or did you just glance at it, finding one or two points not made too clear and go, “Aha! I got ‘im!”, and then, fully aroused and engorged, dash off some petty insult, and then sit back, and relieve yourself at the pleasure of your exceedingly sharp wit?
Say he was wrong about some item in the piece. One thing being wrong does not discount all his other points. But that is the tactic of the narrow-minded — one thing found wrong and you not just denounce the essay, you denounce the author — completely. Thinking yourself as having just protected all the other readers from his words, huh?
No. You’ve just declared to everyone with critical thinking skills that you yourself have no critical thinking skills.
All of his detractors here have insulted him in a great many ways — but none have made any valid argument about what was said.
For example:
“If that sort of classic, creeping repression does not anger and upset you, then you may be many things, but a genuine advocate of free expression in France is not one of them.”
Does what he was bringing up not anger or upset you? I guess not. But why?
“Those types of actions — carried out by the world’s most powerful governments — were, and remain, the greatest threat to free speech in the West. Yet they receive a tiny fraction of the attention that the Hebdo killings did.
“Where were, and where are, all the self-proclaimed free speech advocates about all of that? It was only when anti-Islam cartoons were at issue, and a few Muslims engaged in violence, did they suddenly become animated and passionate about free speech. That’s because legitimizing anti-Islam rhetoric and demonizing Muslims was their actual cause; free speech was just the pretext.”
Can anyone of you state why he is wrong here? I could go on, but what’s the use? You’ll just reply with insults and condemnation, not argument.
AN INSULT IS NOT AN ARGUMENT. Insulting people in your comments is a form of public masturbation. Makes you feel good but grosses out everyone else. (And those “defenders” of Mr. Greenwald insulting the insulters are doing the same damn thing.)
Calling him a “Terrorist Sympathizer” just because he did not resoundingly and vociferously condemn the CH killer enough to your satisfaction, equally DOES NOTHING TO REFUTE the main point: The “Big Three” — America, England and France — practice a hypocritical form of “free speech”, claiming they support it but in practice only for speech that serves their own purposes, censoring any speech that might reduce their claims of being on the side of the Angels.
“Hate speech” is a confession.
Patrick Sienne
Bonjo Meshuer
Please excuse my French. You wrote:
” Now, whether or not your a supporter of Israel, there is a law in France and other civilized countries that says that Boycott is ILLEGAL. ”
Just curious. Do you know of the international boycott of the former apartheid state in South Africa? Was it illegal as well?
Mercy Bookoo
Pat B.
“……..Just curious. Do you know of the international boycott of the former apartheid state in South Africa? Was it illegal as well?…..”
This is a completely erroneous analogy. The comparison has never gained a foothold in the debate which is one reason that why the BDS campaign has failed to materialize. None the less, the radical left continues to promote the same idea with the delusional dream that the lie will catch hold. It won’t.
Thanks Pat
Mr Greenwald,
I have never, in the history of Internet, commented on a web-article. This is the first time I do it, so I’ll try to be as brief as possible because, frankly I can’t stand the stupidities I read everyday, your article included. To support my argument, I’ll tell you that I’m French and I always lived there until I moved for my studies 7 months ago.Thus, I believe in being competent to answer to your “free-speech” article. I do believe in free-speech and I’m in fact, disgusted by how countries like the U.S are trying to abolish a right that has been in every Constitution or Human Rights text since the beginning of the civilized mankind era. What I can’t stand however, is how your differentiate free speech from hate speech. Let’s start with Dieudonné who is the least favorite “celebrity” in France. This man WAS an humorist but he has been evicted from the “comedian” circle when he appeared dressed as WWII Jewish prisoner in a TV set to make jokes about concentration camps. Personally, I founded it offensive, but he made a comeback last year with a new show where 80% ( and I’ve been to the show) of the jokes where about Jews and WWII’s concentration camp. We have in France, what is called : “le devoir de mémoire” , literally ” the memory duty” which reminds us that we must remember about the tragedy occurred during WWII events and never forget so that we don’t make the same mistakes especially genocides( By the way, that picture you took of Dieudonné wasn’t from a journalist meeting but from one of his show called “Le Mur”. He hasn’t done any interview for years so please verify your sources, I hate to patronize Americans journalists as lazy and narrow-minded people). So Mr Mbala Mbala does hate speech, because not only he encourages people to make “quenelles” when they are in Jewish cemeteries( I’ll let you look that up), he also deny the fact that the holocaust ever happened. That’s right , you read right : he’s a negationist. He wasn’t being sentenced for 2 months of prison because he said : #JesuisDieudonné, but because he tweeted after the attacks of the Hyper Cacher ( yes there where two terrorists shooting including one in a kosher grocery store few days after Charlie Hebdo) #JesuisCharlieCoulibaly (Coulibaly was the name of the terrorist who killed 5 Jews and injured 9 others during the second shooting) : THAT’S why he was being held into court, because this is not comedy , but hate speech. To end his case, I’ll finish by saying that he is also a close friend of an extremist french political party called : Front national ( the one who wants to close the border to all Muslims yes like Donald Trump) but also to the famous negationist Alain Soral who did prison time and who believe that Jews and Israel are the master of the universe in a global world-wide Zionist conspiracy. That was the first thing that I wanted to resolve.
Second, I was near the office during the Charlie Hebdo shooting and I can tell you it was one of the saddest day in France as well as the other attacks that occurred after that (hyper cacher, bataclan, damartin). Charlie Hebdo’s concept wasn’t to blame religions or attack any specifics beliefs.. They caricatured EVERYONE because that’s what they were.. artists , who died because they apply their right of free-speech or ” liberté d’expression”. That was a tragedy but I’m having trouble understanding how you link the BDS which is a boycott group to the Charlie Hebdo shooting, claiming they were both “shutted down” for freedom of speech.. Now, let me tell you something about the BDS. Their goal is to weaken Israel economy by boycotting their products.. Now, whether or not your a supporter of Israel, there is a law in France and other civilized countries that says that Boycott is ILLEGAL. Doesn’t matter of the political situation in Israel, the french law says ( article 24), and I quote : “Those who [] will have caused(provoked) in the discrimination, in the hatred or in the violence towards a person or towards a group of people at the rate of their origin or of their membership or of their non-membership in an ethnic group, a nation, a race or a determined religion, will be punished for a detention of one year and of a 45 000-€ fine or of one of these two punishments(efforts) only []” ( sorry for the translation it is from Reverso). So as you can see, whether or not you like Israel and you defend free-speech, it has nothing to do with BDS because this organisation is illegal and you can see an example on http://theinglouriousbasterds.com/ , that they have investigated several members of the BDS who were found to be profound antisemitic person. I’ll leave you with this: no Jewish person has ever threatened Charlie Hebdo for caricaturing the Jewish Community, the same cannot be said for Muslim leaders on Arabic countries who actually did that to the newspaper because representing the prophet was a crime. So please Mr.Greenwald, don’t take shortcuts, don’t be the type of journalist that wants the biggest scoop by trimming the information. Charlie Hebdo was about to declare bankruptcy before the shooting because the newspaper wasn’t selling itself and 1 months after the attacks, the sale of the newspaper dropped because nobody bought the second journal they made after the shooting. The world is not all pretty and wonderful and sometimes the story we tell ourselves are just not true. I am again, apologizing for my poor writing and vocabulary because as you can see, it is not my naturel language but I hope you understand it all. Thank you for reading this.
That is the most depressing and vacuous thing I have read in a very long time, M Sienne. Simply declaring: “It’s not free speech, it’s hate speech and/or it’s illegal!” utterly begs the question. I write that as both a BDS activist, and an ardent civil libertarian.
Your bizarre attempt to simply define political speech and acts as something else is as intellectual vapid as it is morally bankrupt.
BDS is a political movement, and in the U.S. — as should be the case in any liberal democracy — political speech of any kind should be and is protected. (There’s a sad, recent exception to this, because of our own terrorism hysteria. But it’s not relevant here.
)Yesteryear, the boycotts were of apartheid South Africa. Tell me, M Sienne, was support for ending apartheid in South Africa via boycott also illegal in France?
The human right to free speech includes the right to join with like-minded others to effect peaceful political change. In the U.S., it would not be possible to make BDS illegal, because it is protected free speech activity courtesy of the First Amendment of our Constitution.
The American approach to free speech isn’t correct because it is American; it is correct because it protects a fundamental human right, to wit — the right to speak freely one’s political views, individually, or in concert with others. That includes, most especially, the political views the majority most detests. Because unless that is the case, free speech is a mere illusion.
You, M. Sienne, advocate an illusory “free speech.”
I get that your patriotic pride is hurt but get this, kid: France does not have good protection for free speech. So if that is your standard for civilized nation than, well, France is not a civilized nation. The US has many faults, but free speech protections in the US are light years ahead of France. And, finally, the French laws you listed are backwards as hell. Especially the one criminalizing BDS – that is not at the level of a free nation, it just isn’t.
You’re telling me that freedom of speech does not protect whatever speech is outlawed. But in that case, what does freedom of speech even mean?
I sit far from France, but to me, it looks like your country has declared martial law, and is considering changing its constitution to allow prolonged and routine abrogations of human rights and democracy, all over an act of terror that, though terrible for those involved, was really rather small – no worse than any of the planes blown up by bombs that people have had to deal with for the past half century. It seems like the attack was just an excuse to get rid of the Fifth Republic, which I already think of in the past tense.
Patrick Sienne
“……..He wasn’t being sentenced for 2 months of prison because he said : #JesuisDieudonné, but because he tweeted after the attacks of the Hyper Cacher ( yes there where two terrorists shooting including one in a kosher grocery store few days after Charlie Hebdo) #JesuisCharlieCoulibaly (Coulibaly was the name of the terrorist who killed 5 Jews and injured 9 others during the second shooting)…….”
The Intercept to my knowledge has not written about the Jewish people targeted and murdered by the Islamic terrorists during the Charlie Hebdo attack, but they afforded Awlaki a forum to spew his propaganda.
“…….“I support what Umar Farouk has done after I have been seeing my brothers being killed in Palestine for more than sixty years……“The American people live [in] a democratic system and that is why they are held responsible for their policies. The American people are the ones who have voted twice for Bush the criminal and elected Obama, who is not different from Bush as his first remarks stated that he would not abandon Israel…..”
Collective punishment means something entirely different for Jews and Muslims. Indeed, the terrorists are treated as victims.
“… Islamic terrorists …”
————
TI has as much of a chance to fulfil your requests as you do to fulfil my request to stop using this invalid and highly offensive term and its sibling, Islamic Terrorism.
His exact sentence was “I feel Charlie Coulibaly”, y’all have been lied to :)
So boycotts are illegal in France? So why did France engage in a boycott against Iran lo these many years, and still is boycotting Iran? So who got slapped with the 45 000EUR fine and time in the slammer?
There are two types of people that have a proclivity to censor others’ speech.
1) Those who are only personally offended by the content of the person’s comments they wish to banish.
2) And those who are personally offended that the content of the person’s comment they wish to banish, EXPOSES certain pieces of information that they wish hidden from the view of OTHERS (information suppressors).
More often than not, both types are the expression of the same genetic trait ( GG look what you have unleashed now… )
Here’s an idea for those demanding censorship of TI comments: Why not just scroll through to the comments of those you agree with and respect?
” Here’s an idea for those demanding censorship of TI comments: Why not just scroll through to the comments of those you agree with and respect? ”
Excellent point. To which I’ll repeat a comment I made about this exact matter earlier.
” If you want to ignore someone here, just never bother to read their entries. Like I am certain many others who abhor the content of your posts, or mine for that matter, do. ”
To which I may belatedly add: save your self a heart attack and just leave and go to TownHall. Although we will sooooo miss you !
Nananana…nananana…hey hey hey …goodbye…
Nananana…nananana…hey hey hey …goodbye…
Glenn: Do you really want to continue, and de facto encourage, this cesspool of nastiness and stupidity BTL?
I was banned, twice, because of comments below your Graun columns that offended the moderators there (actually, I think I frightened them because of a DA-Notice they had received). I was one of the first commenters, here, when TI came online.
Time, health issues and the increasingly unpleasant trends and tendencies of BTL threads kept me away from TI for a while, but recently I decided to try, again, to participate — only to find that it’s worse than ever.
If this mix of stupidity, ugliness, crapflooding and outright hatred is acceptable to you, that’s your decision (I presume). It’s just not acceptable to me, any longer.
~Doug
Pot, meet Kettle…
“If this mix of stupidity, ugliness, crapflooding and outright hatred is acceptable to you, that’s your decision (I presume). It’s just not acceptable to me, any longer.”
Moderating the posts here would take up a large amount of time. And, a really open and “free rain” forum can have some good points.
People need to start laughing at the crap comments… and start refraining from replying!
And you are the pot calling the kettle black, as all your comments I read here are full of crap totally un-related to this article about free speech!
All y’all “defenders of what is right and good” need to lighten up a little. You’ll never stop the Trolls, yet you continually reply to them thinking that you can! Any reply to a Troll only enables them more! Don’t you people get that?
You’ll never convince them of anything because you and they are not engaging in argument but just spewing petty insults back and forth in a manner that will never end.
Defenders of what is right and good… Stop feeding the Trolls! (But I know you won’t.)
“Moderating the posts here would take up a large amount of time. ”
Yet another “contributor” with a reading comprehension problem.
No one has suggested moderating posts. What Mona suggested and I support and investigated (and realized that it would not be possible) is a user script that would save individual users from having to wade through the posts of those whom they find objectionable, idiotic, psychotic, or just uninteresting — and that clutter up the pages so as to make finding the meaningful posts difficult. It’s called an “Ignore” function and it’s a standard feature of properly-functional forum software and has been for many years. It can also be implemented on individual browsers, if the source code of the forum software is available and readable (as long as posters are distinguishable).
As for the troofer lunatics, if they can’t be blocked, it’s important to refute their arguments with actual fact and reference to reality — not because they will be convinced but because they have convinced so many people around the world that their imbecilic conspiranoia is somehow related to the truth of the matter, and that is dangerous and must be countered. One in five Americans believe that the government was behind the 9/11 attacks If that doesn’t worry you, or if you don’t think it’s important to argue against such dangerous stupidity, you need to re-think your position.
And, again, you really need to work on that reading comprehension thing. Words have meanings, and if you don’t understand the commonly-agreed meanings of words, you’re often going to be confused — and sometimes embarrass yourself by revealing, publicly, that you don’t know what you’re talking about.
Nananana…nananana…hey hey hey …goodbye…
People commenting on an article about Free Speech…and advocating that TI censor comments. He-he-he.
There is a significant difference between free speech and the operation of hate-speech TROLLS.
Enlighten yourself !
Why don’t you enlighten me of the significant difference between acceptable speech and hate speech? Anything like the difference between art and porn? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkJS0IzZREk
‘He-he-he.’
Or in other words – let’s fantasize for a moment that this comment section is America -(if Mona got finally stopped?) – and everybody will enjoy her or his free speech – even Doug when he uses all kind of nasty words – but there are a lot of other comment sections on the Internet – like… like the one of the NYT.
Now the comment section of the NYT might be like Europe – as it has very clear rules and laws against Hate Speech – and even slightly nasty words – and that’s not saying that everybody should enjoy the comment section of the NYT more – than the comment section of the Intercept – No!
It’s just like looking at ‘free speech’ more in the abstract – an not as a such a simpistic construct which supposedly fails if you are not allowed to use hateful words…
Well, the premise of Mr. Greenwald’s article is that anyone who advocates free speech is a hypocrite, at least judging by the examples he cites. But as I’ve previously commented, I find this assessment a bit harsh. People genuinely believe they should have the right to say whatever they please. The problem is that some people take this as license to spout all kinds of nonsense and thereby ruin it for everyone else.
Fortunately, technology on other, more advanced, sites is already solving this problem. Facebook forwards links on topics it believes may be of interest, while blocking others it knows will not. Some people worry that this filter bubble merely reinforces pre-existing beliefs. However, this is based on a value judgment, for which there is no empirical evidence, that there is something undesirable with being ignorant and opinionated. Those who achieve the most are those who possess supreme self confidence – even, or perhaps especially, when they are wrong.
Observing the current political campaign in the US, I have concluded that government censorship is no longer necessary – merely a vestigial historical artifact. Given the choice, people will create their own bubble universe. Who better to know what produces cognitive dissonance and should be eliminated from thought, than the individual citizens themselves?
Doug Salzmann
You wrote:
” Sometime in the short night’s sleep I was able to manage, I realized that we’re never going to be able to implement a user script-based Ignore function for this forum software, because no real registration is required and email addresses aren’t verified. ”
———————
Congratulations. As a matter of fact, TI is very likely NEVER to have such a tool.
GG (and other co-founders of this website) is very likely to continue to defend the fundamental principle of free speech – wherever it appears – a principle he defended successfully during his practice even when engaged in by persons whose views he detested.
Implementing your wishes would amount to engaging in a self-sabotage of his own position on the matter, even when such tools would be implemented at user level.
If you want to ignore someone here, just never bother to read their entries. Like I am certain many others who abhor the content of your posts, or mine for that matter, do.
Mona, please keep your Stasi-like wishes to yourself. They are unnecessary and insulting to the rest of the free-thinkers on this site. If you can’t handle an opposing comment, then grow a pair or STOP READING THEM.
What I’ll do is join the increasing number of disaffected readers and commenters who have either reduced their participation, who no longer participate, or who take their first look and decide not to ever participate. I’ll either continue with option one, or move on to two — three is obviously n/a.
…and also too, I have a pair – they may look like desiccated shriveled raisins, but they’re still up in there…
Oh please, not this drive-by coward again…
Mark O’Rubio was on the ABC Sunday morning show, smearing Snowden as “a traitor for giving our secrets to the Chinese.”
why should comments be any different?
This is a test.
@Mona & other “Intercept Regulars Against Crapflooding, Conspiranoia, Psychotic Word Salad and Random Nastiness”
Sometime in the short night’s sleep I was able to manage, I realized that we’re never going to be able to implement a user script-based Ignore function for this forum software, because no real registration is required and email addresses aren’t verified.
The above “test” post was submitted using a totally fabricated email address that almost certainly isn’t in use anywhere on the Internet — and, if it does exist, it wasn’t verified.
So, as long as we have truly anonymous posters, except for a few of us who choose to identify ourselves openly, we won’t be able to block or ignore the loonies and cretins. They’ll just keep changing identities.
I think TI’s choices are to get real forum software operating or let the creeps, jerks and morons dominate comments BTL, while the rest of us, increasingly, give up and fade away.
Of course, we’ve been complaining about this and related forum issues since the site opened, and very little has been done to address the problem, so it may matter more to us than it does to the people making these decisions for The Intercept.
~Doug
Thanks so much for looking into all that Doug. That is disappointing — that there’s no grease-monkey kind of script we can use to block out all the disruptive and lunatic commenters. But, I have made sure your findings are made known to The Powers that Be.
There’s not much more we ourselves can do. But, thanks again.
TI is not going to keep a database of commenters.
Doug, your declarations mocking 911, with laughable video link, removes your credibility in judging “the loonies and cretins”.
“. . . removes your credibility in judging “the loonies and cretins”.
Well, certainly the other loonies will agree with you WRT my credibility.
The cretins are mostly concerned with other matters.
Like I said, you have no credibility as you cannot even do high-school level physics. You believe whatever sounds good to your tin ear is reality and you quickly point to the mirror your staring at as proof of your position.
It’s you, Heru, isn’t it? You argue as he did, with vapidity for the ages, utilizing oppositional defiance commonly seen in the dementia crowd or toddlers.
Dear Doug –
I don’t know if I qualify for one of the… commenters you describe in your… ‘describtion’ but nobody ever was able to dominate the Fan Base of my friend Glenn Greenwald – not even in the good ole times when the comment section of his blog had a poetry-like quality it never reached again after Glenn Greenwald left the Saloon.
So why not relax? –
It can’t get worst than if somebody who really, really wants to run this comment section ask you to invent something that she can run it undisturbed?
Really? You just found this out? I’ve been ‘logging-on’ and commenting under false monikers and email addresses since day one. Someone as slow to the party as you should be banned for all eternity from this site…
Salzman doesn’t know the soup du jour, but he says, “they have it every day …”
No, of course I didn’t just find it out. I just realized that it would make creating a script to permit ignoring assholes like you impracticable.
“I’ve been ‘logging-on’ and commenting under false monikers and email addresses since day one.”
Saying things you wouldn’t have the balls to say if you weren’t hiding behind anonymity. The freedom to speak anonymously is recognized as important in the US, but I assure you that the courts that have created the relevant case law weren’t addressing jerks like you posting to privately-owned forums.
I’m shivering in my timbers, Dougie-boy…
Dude, the MAJORITY of commenters here use a false name. Since when is that grounds for ridicule and insult?
the MAJORITY of commenters here don’t change their stupid usernames every single post….I wonder if even more than one does?
Doug Salzmann
You wrote:
” Not to anyone who has the slightest understanding of simple physics, has read the authoritative reports and has hands-on experience of the way materials behave in the real world. ”
———————–
I shall take you at your word on your alleged understanding of physics and will abstain from challenging it.
But 2200 Americans Architects who must study Physics as part of their training in order to understand the behaviour of materials under extremes of temperatures, stresses and pressures, as well as when subjected to vibrations, are as qualified as you claim to be, if not more so. Yet they hold a contrary view to the one that you hold.
I do not know the total number of American Architects in the registry, yet regardless of the total number registered, 2200 scientists is not a number to be trivially dismissed.
Russian scientists whose file is now in the custody of DOE Sandia, and which, most unfortunately, Snowden had no Q clearance to access, allegedly contains more damning information which is contrary to what you believe. I presume that Russian scientists, pioneers in many areas of science, are not exactly dummies.
An association of retired American military, hold a contrary opinion. And these are well- respected scientists and men and women of honor whose conclusions cannot be simply poo-pooed away.
I could go on and on if such would not be an exercise in futility.
The point made here is that while you may have a viewpoint, and a claimed scientific training to understand what
caused the towers to fall, that is all and fine. But you may not deny others, including the scientific illiterates like myself, the right of exposure to THE WHOLE BODY of information regarding the matter.
Furthermore, it may border on the arrogance of ignorance on your part to presume that all untrained in science, must not possess the ability to understand scientific phenomena.
Ironically, I knew nothing about the book that the commenter here – cannot even his/her name now – recommended reading about the matter, nor the persons that you have mentioned…
From Architect, the journal of the American Institute of Architects:
Architects Shy From Trutherism
Architects didn’t show up for a 9/11-architecture-conspiracy documentary screening—and the AIA doesn’t want its name associated with Trutherism.
There are more than 80,000 members of the AIA.
There are more than 800,000 licensed professional engineers in the US.
Assuming a total of 900,000 real architects and engineers, and assuming that all of your 2,200 are, indeed real (properly qualified and licensed), they amount to about two tenths of one percent of their fellow professionals, the vast majority of whom want nothing to do with their silly bullshit.
The vast majority know little to nothing about pulling buildings; it’s taught separately. The rest want to be good little sheep.
You never answered me on the steel temperature of Tower 7. The answer is at the Weather Channel …
From Implosion World (“. . . the explosive demolition industry’s worldwide source for news and information on building implosions, blowdowns and all other types of structural blasting projects.):
A Critical Analysis of the Collapse of WTC Towers 1, 2 & 7 From an Explosives and Conventional Demolition Industry Viewpoint
From NIST:
Final Report on the Collapse of World Trade Center Building 7, Federal Building and Fire Safety Investigation of the World Trade Center Disaster (NIST NCSTAR 1A)
Just fucking read it, all of it. And keep reading it until you actually understand it.
Authoritarian Patsies Inc.
re: NIST Report
‘In its final report on WTC 7, which came out in November 2008, NIST – rather amazingly – admitted free fall. Dividing the building’s descent into three stages, NIST described the second phase as “a freefall descent over approximately eight stories at gravitational acceleration for approximately 2.25 [seconds].” NIST thereby accepted Chandler’s case – except for maintaining that the building was in absolute free fall for only 2.25. NIST thereby affirmed a MIRACLE, meaning a violation of one or more laws of physics.’
Indeed.
More nonsense that demonstrates, yet again, Pope’s observation:
“A little learning is a dangerous thing;
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring.
Please note that (as I have emphasized in the quote from the NIST Q&A, below, when we talk about a period of free fall, we are talking only about the (portion of) the north face of Building 7 visible in a single video that was analyzed. Nobody, other than some goofy troofer, somewhere, I suppose, has ever suggested that the building, as a whole, collapsed at free fall speed for any period of time.
Questions and Answers about the NIST WTC 7 Investigation (09/17/2010, ARCHIVE, incorporated into 9/19/2011 update)
In simple terms, when the “stuff” holding something up stops holding it up it falls at free fall speed. When it encounters “other stuff” that impedes the fall, it slows down.
TROLL ALERT
Louise Cypher aka LouiseCyphre aka LouiseCypher (variations on a theme) – is a HATE SPEECH troll. Here is his/her contribution in “The Independent” regarding Jeremy Corbyn [Copied from “The Independent” ] :
LouiseCyphre
Simple really. Trident stays, and Corbyn gets dropped from a great height instead.
DO WE TOLERATE PEOPLE WHO ADVOCATE MURDER ? This is mild compared with most of this troll’s postings.
Constantly this person calls for the destruction of Jeremy Corbyn and the destruction and murder of all persons who are angry because of the West’s warmongering, along with the elimination of all Muslims.
He/she constantly insults all “terrorist sympathisers” [just as Glenn stipulates] referring to them as cockroaches, vermin, morons, islamophiliacs, dummies, etc.
There is absolutely no difference between the Hate Speech against Muslims and the anti-Semitism of Adolph Hitler.
Yet, Louise Cypher is allowed write his/her continual HATE SPEECH against Muslims, and all of those who condemn the warmongering of the West, on all of these publications.
Do Not Feed the Trolls.
If anti-Semitic commentary is banned, so also should the Islamophobia of Louise Cyper – no doubt he/she is completely ignorant of the significance of the word “semitism”.
The answer to the restriction of free speech of some is NOT the restriction of free speech of others. Let everyone speak/write whatever they like – love, hate or otherwise – and the rest of us can interpret and act as we like…
Anti-semitic commentary is banned at the Intercept? In what alternate universe?
Well, Glenn’s been known to delete the Stormfront-level shit.
and did I ever tell you that I like your style?
If I haven’t here it is – and I know this hairdresser or ‘once hairdresser’ – who turned into a piano player – and on the night the attack in Paris happened he sat in a Pub in Konstanz Germany and saw the pictures on TV and the he cried – took his piano and drove to Paris to play there – and when the picture about him playing there was all over the Internet the next day – some commenters accused him of exploiting the whole thing –
while he actually just tried to show… well – let’s cry together:
http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/watch-pianist-perform-john-lennons-imagine-outside-paris-bataclan-20151114
@CraigSummers,
Sigh. Your disinterest is uninteresting. Your posts, on the other hand, are enlightening, in that they provide a window on a selfish and insular worldview that protects your group over others, not because you have better ideas, but because they are your ideas that protect your group.
As far as relevance to this particular article, you ask? Simple. France, in particular, and the West, in general are doing much the same as you: using their bully-pulpit to protect their political position.
You and the groups who practice this tribalism are equivalent, in that you all ignore foundation principles (embracing free speech, torture is immoral, etc.) in order to protect those in your group and the political positions that make you feel warm and fuzzy.
The difference, of course, is that France, the West, and governments and corporations have the power of states behind them, which they use to enforce their views.
So while you (one hopes) cannot go out and actually torture another human being with your own hands or hire someone to do it for you, as more powerful state actors can do, you propagate this immorality and inhumanity with your words nonetheless.
So while I celebrate and actually look forward to seeing posts of all manner here, it doesn’t mean that I’ll temper my revulsion or limit any push-back against these cowardly positions.
Your arguments, while well written (absent the continual formatting faux pas) are repugnant.
You are right about one thing: you and I won’t likely affect geopolitical events by what we write here – but torturers and torture apologists only differ in what power they wield in order to negatively impact someone else’s life.
Dick Cheney et .al didn’t have the power to torture other humans until they did. It’s my job as a human being to keep you and others like you from getting that power ever again.
CraigSummers was a continual Troll on “The Guardian”.
[ I don’t know now – I stopped reading “The Guardian” when Glen Greenwald left; “The Guardian”, under Rusbridger, became a US-pandering publication, following party and establishment, although *ostensibly* being the newspaper of the “left” and “human rights” – Greenwald was absolutely right to leave, he has more dignity than to sell his soul ! ]
I shall not engage on this website either – it’s nauseating to be in the company of these evil, indoctrinated specimens.
Glenn – keep up your marvellous work ! You are an inspiration !
“…….I shall not engage on this website either – it’s nauseating to be in the company of these evil, indoctrinated specimens……”
A specimen is something I give my Urologist. By the way, you can read all of my comments at the Guardian under the same name.
Enjoy.
You may give specimens to your Urologist ( is this American “humour”? appallingly dull! ) – there is more than one significance to the word – but being of limited capacity, I wouldn’t expect for you to be overly aware of anything other than *your* intended meaning.
I shall not be reading your rubbish, here or elsewhere. You bore me. Desole’ !
You just may have discovered part of his problem: he’s been working with the wrong specialist.
Everything he produces should go to a proctologist.
That was a pleasure to read!
“……..Dick Cheney et .al didn’t have the power to torture other humans until they did. It’s my job as a human being to keep you and others like you from getting that power ever again……”
I can almost hear the star spangled banner playing in the background as I read this last sentence.
Take care sillyputty
My anthem is likely different than yours.
My anthem seems likely not to be yours.
I live in France and very few are fighting the police state (Edwy Plenel at MediaPart is one of the few voices). This will just make the excluded angrier and feed the far right. Bizarre as it may seem, the far right is hostile to Israeli occupation and war against Muslim countries.
I am disgusted at how any criticism of Israel in France is attacked as ‘anti-semitic’. Apparently, the Prime Minister, Manuel Valls, whose wife is French/Jewish/Israeli, said France owes everything it is to the Jews. It is almost as if the French government works for Israel and not for the French. These double standards are there for all to see. I boycott Israel and I hope the defendants in the boycott trial take the case to the European Court of Human Rights. The problem is, I cannot express my opinions on these subjects publicly. Vive la Republique!
I must add that Le Monde was very critical of the domestic spying law voted last year but that is because some of there reporters were victims of said spying. Le Monde certainly has no problem with official censorship of “deviant ideas.”
and in conclusion I just don’t get the reason for all of this excitement – as I once got fined on a public US beach for bathing topless.
Guys – In France bathing topless is prefectly legal and that you can’t yell some hateful stuff at some ‘fureigners’ next to you – without getting fined makes it so much better.
And about the disgraceful US laws to limit the free swing of boobs on beaches – what would Mona say if I would post page after page here – about how disgraceful these puritanistic American Lawas about the limitations of my boobs truly are?
She right away would write Glenn Greenwald to limit my free speech!
So please – let’s give the French the freedom to fine the speech of hateful idiots!
Free speech basically means it’s a valuable service provided free of cost to the listener. Therefore, if the listener doesn’t want to hear your free speech then it’s a cost to him, because now it starts costing him his own peace which is priceless.
So whenever any of us try to provide free speech, or for that matter any uninvited voluntary service, we must keep the audience or spectator in mind. His sentiments are more important than the service that you intend to provide by exercising your own vocal cords or vital appendages for free. If you are not sure then best use a private environment that is in your control to regulate.
She’d say the article Glenn wrote is not about topless beaches. She’d also say that more than one or two inane comparisons to such beaches, especially with your record, signals crap flooding. Further, she’d point out that this is a privately-owned web site, and not by the government. The rules of their living room apply.
She might also point out, that even for the government, legitimate restrictions as to time place and manner have always been allowed, and crapflooding is a “manner” for which it is legitimate to deny speech.
Glenn has banned you many, many times. You are making it attractive to see that happen yet again. You most definitively make a grease monkey ignore script attractive.
‘She might also point out, that even for the government, legitimate restrictions as to time place and manner have always been allowed,’
That is why the French government restricts the bad manners of Hate Speech. And me joking about it calls for limiting my free speech –
as you are right – my BFF Glenn Greenwald has banned me many times for making fun of him – or his BFF – you?
But he used to love me – me and more adventurous comparisons to boobs and beaches a Mussolini can tolerate.
sorry – a Freudian slip – ‘a Mona can tolerate’…
I’d settle if Glenn just made pieceofcake shave her hairy French armpits and legs! (Patriotic anti-feminist misogynistic semantics … perhaps, perhaps not.)
*OK Mona … a few of those Charlie Hebdo cartoons were a little funny. And some, most, flew right by me as they are specific to French culture/personalities I have no knowledge of. I’m willing to assume they have some satirical value … for the French.
Still, imho, a couple Ive seen relate directly to the perpetuation of that ol’ Islamic “Boogy Man” and, when coupled to the Mad-Mag graphics, are just flat-out offensive … any way you cut it (after all, we all have something different in common.).
ps. Idk if Glenn miss-characterizes the satirical value of Charlie Hebdo … but he’s definitely not known for his Humorous nature!
If you don’t agree with anyone’s posts, just ignore them. No need to ban or threaten such for anyone here. That would be quite ridiculous…
And how is denouncing Israeli apartheid a form of “hateful speech?” And when did preventing people from expressing their ideas ever prevent them from thinking them? and who is to determine what is hateful and what is not? Are you to tell me what I can say and what I cannot? Are you God then?
‘Are you to tell me what I can say and what I cannot?
No – but your government might – as mentioned before that nearly every government of modern democratic States have limits to so called free speech.
In the US it is: ‘the Miller test for obscenity, child pornography laws, speech that incites imminent lawless action, and regulation of commercial speech such as advertising’ and rights, such as rights for authors over their works (copyright), protection from imminent or potential violence against particular persons (restrictions on the use of untruths to harm others (slander)’
Compared to that – the French law to protect YOU or any other French from Hateful Speech don’t sound half as ‘bad’ –
Don’t you think?
Yes,would be gods who will choke on their hubris.
it’s going to be an ugly scene.
‘Yes,would be gods who will choke on their hubris.’
Good Lord – you guys are speaking for a lawyer who kind of thinks that corporation are people who need their ‘free speech’ – and thus they are buying it.
Try to show a little more humor about that type of crazy hybris and you suddenly might see European laws in a completely new and very pleasant light?
http://www.eamonnblaney.com/whatever-you-say-say-nothing/
“In Defense of Bigotry”
This should be the title of most posts that argue, in some shape or form, for a tribally-approved “free” speech.
All the fuss about the nuances of allegory and comparison in Glenn’s article is meant to defend a bigoted viewpoint – one that allows their tribe’s speech and not the others.
Mona
“…….Yes. And Glenn has banished people who agree with him. But in general people who agree with Glenn are too intelligent and reasonable to carry on like that……”
There is no doubt that you are a knowledgeable poster, but you have a history of saying really stupid things. This is another one. The banning was strictly for political reasons – and because he called you a dumb ass constantly.
Do you even believe that? Name one case.
He believes torture is an affirmative good, so what he believes is often as odd as it is depraved.
“…….He believes torture is an affirmative good, so what he believes is often as odd as it is depraved……”
But I am right in this case. Simple.
You missed out the dashes that -Mona- uses on either side of herself, like two sentries poking out their Kalashnikovs.
You know I never noticed this before…….what the hell?
The ‘hell’ as you call it is reality hitting you on the head. We’ll all keep putting the remainder in front of you. As in this case, it may take a few years to see the obvious, but there’s still time.
and about the usual excitement about opposing views to Glenn Greenwald writings…
What would ‘Mussolino’ say: ‘Call me Mona’.
Just a small mistake – the target of boycott of Israel is not to end the occupation but the destruction of Israel. This according to the BDS.
This is way the French court disallowed it. This is against the UN rules where no country should call for the destruction of other UN member.
That’s a lofty goal but I don’t believe that a gentle boycott could accomplish it.
The ending of apartheid in Israel would “destroy” it to the same extend it destroyed South Africa. Or the same extend abolishing chattel slavery in the American South “destroyed” the South.
Israels destruction is in good hands,the hands of Zion,as in the only people who can kill Barnes is Barnes.
@Hasus
This is the point of the conversation where you substantiate your suspect claim.
Much Appreciated..
..
“These ‘non-violent’ punitive measures should be maintained until Israel meets its obligation to recognize the Palestinian peoples inalienable right to self-determination and fully complies with the precepts of international law by:
1. Ending its occupation and colonization of all Arab lands and dismantling the Wall
2. Recognizing the fundamental rights of the Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel to full equality; and
3. Respecting, protecting and promoting the rights of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes and properties as stipulated in UN resolution 194 . . .”
donger, it’s that #3. Zionists claim they must maintain at least a 70% Jewish majority or they will be “destroyed.” They consider non-Jews having too many babies in Israel a “demographic threat.” They consider Sudanese refugees — whom they delightfully refer to as “infiltrators” — to also constitute a demographic threat to their “need” for a large Jewish majority.
Opposing this ethno-supremacist foundation of Israel therefore constitutes “hate speech.”
Glenn’s “they” in this article is too broad, generic and indefinite that the argument becomes a straw man. There were various and complex motivations behind the outpour of popular defense for Charlie Hedbo and free speech. Glenn oversimplifies and falsifies the dynamics at play to justify his predisposition to sneer at western societies and at anti-islamism in general. And he stubbornly double-downs with his bad logic due to his vain desire to win the internet argument, which prevents him from letting go, reflecting more carefully about the events and improving his understanding. His vanity is his biggest weakness and it shows.
Frankly, GG comes across as guilty of hipocrisy as those he denounces. I mean, he does act as genuine concerned person about free speech in France. Rather, he seems to use free speech in self-serving ways to support his views, his side.
One could use this inconsistency in France to denounce the insufficient protections for free speech. But that is not what GG does: instead, he uses the case and free speech to attack his “opponents” in the internet arguments and boast “I was right.”
This is the problem with free speech; people use it to selfishly promote their own views. Europeans understand that the government, acting for the common good, should decide which views should be promoted. This is just common sense. What people often fail to understand, however, is that not just anyone should be allowed to promote government views.
A careful reading of these threads will make it clear that many well-intentioned people attacking free speech often undermine their own case through sloppy thinking and choosing poor examples to make their point. This is counterproductive. Therefore a licensing system should be formalized, to ensure that people promoting the government’s view have proper rhetorical training and master the necessary persuasion techniques.
People should be prohibited from expressing their own views directly, but could be allowed to reference approved views by saying, “What Trump says” or “What Clinton says”.
“What Trump says”
– wouldn’t be considered ‘speech’ in Europe – It would be regulated by the very strict European environmental laws of pollution (actually much harder to understand for Americans as the Law about Hate Speech)
“People should be prohibited from expressing their own views directly, but could be allowed to reference approved views by saying, “What Trump says” or “What Clinton says”.”
Brilliant suggestion. If someone in charge, should deem me worthy, I’d like to nominate your being added to the list of approved insertees in the formula, “What ____________ says.” I can hear it now, Such a ring to it! And hysterical, I mean historical too.
Doug Salzmann
You wrote:
” Some lunatic theories, “the WTC towers were brought down by controlled demolition” and “the Hebdo attacks and the recent Paris massacre were false flag psy-ops,” are so obviously ridiculous as to require no inquiry at all. ”
Point well-made, and fair enough if you find those ideas ridiculous.
Do not forget though that there are others who may not share your sentiments. Barrett ‘s book as mentioned by another commenter here, consequently, may be appealing to others.
” Barrett ‘s book as mentioned by another commenter here, consequently, may be appealing to others.”
Not to anyone who has the slightest understanding of simple physics, has read the authoritative reports and has hands-on experience of the way materials behave in the real world.
Now, I’m sure Steven (“Nanothermite”) Jones, who once understood physics quite well (but maybe not simple Newtonian physics), but has since wandered deep into La-la Land — pre-Columbian horses in the Americas, visits to America by Jesus Christ . . . — and his merry band of “no aircraft hit the Pentagon” followers find it very appealing.
End of discussion.
That’s rich. You do not understand basic thermodynamics yet you prattle on about material science.
This article is one freaking unintended test on free speech tolerance on the commenters right here.
And the results are already quite revealing…
Piece of …
You wrote:
” but ultimately it might be the complete and total lack of any empathy for terrorism victims from Boston to Paris which will finally sink my friend Glenn Greenwald – ”
———–
Since when has a demonstration of contrast in responses by the French Government to two events both of which should have elicited the same response – upholding the principle of free speech in both, NO, not in just both but in ALL cases – somehow becomes synonymous to you with ‘ a complete and total lack of any empathy for terrorism victims ‘ ?
Islam is a proxy war for left vs right. The point was never autonomy or respect or even defeat, just scoring cheap political points using the language and labels of diametrically opposed exclusion…and endless war.
I swear people should just name their political philosophy “not the other” and be done with it. Everyone can simultaneously be on the same team and yet hate each other at the same time. A perfect world.
Question: Who has purposefully fumbled more in their opponent’s red zone in the last decade, democrats or republicans? Watching both parties do everything they can to keep the “opposing” party alive has reached absurd heights. There is no punching up–only fluffing. Yet nobody can keep it up anymore.
Politics is the art of making people choose sides. Even more, politics is the art of keeping the other side alive.
Language is the foundation, from foundation flows narrative, from narrative flows action. The language you use insists you can never win. Staged slap fights, fumbles and tumbles with all the credibility and choreography of professional wrestling. Folding chairs and hay bales. The show must go on…and on…and on.
Who the fuck names their philosophy after a direction and doesn’t pick “Up”?
That alone reveals the scam. You can be “Down” and I will be “Up.” Suck it. Who in the hell picks “Left” or “Right”? Fucking pathetic. It is this kind of bullshit that gives us a sports team named the “Pelicans.” I will be the “Mother Fucking BadAss HellFyre Shitkickers” and you can be the “Pelicans.” Suck it.
If we get to pick names then I am calling my philosophy “The Truth: All Killer and No Filler” or maybe just “The Best/The Beast”. Why wouldn’t you pick a name that forces your opponent to humiliate themselves while also acting as advertising? Nobody that picks “Left” or “Right” deserves to win shit because these names are prizes for participation only.
https://soundcloud.com/andersonpaak/11-paint-prod-lo-def
The sides themselves didn’t choose the names “left” and “right”; others (commentators) did.
@Ben
If you have no choice of who you play for then “Pelicans” is as good a name as any.
The biggest problem with the names “right” and “left” is that the words guarantee the continued existence of your opponent.
Defeating your enemy assures your own demise. That’s not war, that’s performance art. Or more accurately–it’s 69. Also known as Yin & Wang.
“However, when that citizen shows his concerns only when specific foreign governments commit abuses with US provided resources (Israel-Mubarak Egypt)” Lola
“Aid to the apartheid state of Israel averages around three billion USD annually. Over 20 years, that works out to 160 billion US taxpayer dollars. ” Kassandra
“You have consistently avoided critiquing the PLO while it has been one of the biggest recipients of US and European AIDS.” Lola
“As per Congressional Reports, the Palestinians (let’s say the PLO) has, over the last 20 years, received eight (8) billion USD in aid. Most of those funds have gone to fund the Palestinian police forces” Kassandra
Thank you very much for backing up my statements with data.
” …you have consistently avoided critiquing Venezuela under Chavez/Maduro while the US has been one of its biggest trading PARTNERS for years regardless of politicians’ rhetoric.” Lola
“That the US may be a major trading partner for Venezuela is quite another story. Also, our self-righteous correspondent must have missed the elections in Venezuela. Chavez’ party is out. The right wing is in. Always good to get your facts straight before commenting. Otherwise you tend to look rather silly and childishly tantrum-prone.” Kassandra
FACT: The US has been Venezuela major trading partner for years. Under Chavez and under current president Maduro from Chavez’s party.
http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/countries/venezuela/
FACT: Maduro (from Chavez party) is still the president of Venezuela. Chavez’ party is still in charge of the executive. The party lost the National Assembly not executive powers. A party is not out when its leader is the commander in chief of the armed forces, appoints cabinet members, issues executive orders with the force of law, has the power to dissolve the National Assembly and declare state of exception among other things.
“Always good to get your facts straight before commenting. Otherwise you tend to look rather silly and childishly tantrum-prone.”
You were right the US and Europe gives aids to the PA not the PLO. Different name same leadership. Oh no! You did not even notice!
“The interesting thing about stupid people is their inability to actually notice how stupid they are.” Lola
“You’ve got that one right!” Kassandra.
Again, thank you for providing data that support my statements. I promise I will not laugh at your stupidity. It is probably the result of a mental disease as you cannot even notice it.
You can’t tell if a country is part of the US sphere of country by simply looking at trade or aid. You know a country is outside of it if the US wants to change that country’s regime. You can also look at how the international corporate media deals with that country. You can tell from government statements and personal relations. You could also read Wikileaks releases. The difference between Obama’s obituary to King Abdullah and Hugo Chavez is an example of things you can look at. More than that, if you follow geopolitics, you just know. When you try to deny obvious realities like the close relationship between Saudi Arabia and the US, it’s as if you’re trying to fool the uninformed.
ATTN TECH PEEPS
Back when Glenn wrote at Salon, some very useful people pointed to a greasemonkey script, in which one could enter user names and they didn’t show up in one’s Salon comments.
Surely there is some fine, humanitarian individual with the skills to create and share such a tool for users in The Intercept’s comments section?
Please?
We could certainly do that, Mona, but: to be effective, such a script has to be customized for a particular forum software and for a particular browser (Greasemonkey is the most-used and is mostly used on Firefox).
Looking quickly at the code, I don’t see any recognizable, generally-used forum code (unless its scripts have been renamed — there are several javascripts that appear to have been named to obscure their identity or function and I don’t have the time or energy to try to parse them or try to figure out what other scripts they may be calling. I could be wrong, of course. A quick explanation from the TI tech staff could clear up my confusion.
Further, the scripts themselves appear to be constructed (deliberately? maybe, but who knows) to make them difficult to read, even for coder types. Example:
https://prod01-cdn04.cdn.firstlook.org/assets/app26e91e51068d1344d83c.js
Now, maybe there’s a nicely-formatted, clearly-commented version of that script somewhere, but that’s not what’s running on the site.
I do see that Piwik analytics software is running here.
With help from the TI techies, we could probably construct a Greasemonkey “Ignore” user script, or a similar one for Webkit-based browsers (Chrome, Safari, Opera . . .). Without that, it looks like it would be a tall order.
It’s the middle of the night and I’m only at the computer because I can’t sleep, so I’ll take another look later on, when I’m actually awake, and I’m sure some of the techies who are more “front-end” oriented than I am will chime in.
I think the problem urgently needs to be fixed. There’s a limit to the amount of shit serious readers and contributors are willing to wade through and I know any number of folks like that here are getting really close to the limits.
~Doug
Thanks so much Doug. Myself, I am well past my limit, which is why I participate less here recently. I also am familiar with a number of others who simply can not tolerate the flood of vapid idiocy, and even literal craziness, that too often overwhelms the comments. No doubt there any number of intelligent people who look at the zoo here and just walk away.
completely right. as i’ve said before, i have yet to see anyone repost offensive cartoons from der sturmer as a principled stance against the execution of julius streicher at nuremburg, let alone insist that everyone supporting free speech must do so.
Excellent analysis. Excellent and brilliant.
U might b interested to know that here in NZ academics fell over each other, frothing & foaming @ their mouths , in their rush to cheer for Hebdo as ‘champion’ of free speech. And their students nodded in agreement, & the media quoted ‘the experts’ in a fashion that can only be described as promiscuous, insulting. But then NZ media & academics are not exactly intellectual giants.
but ultimately it might be the complete and total lack of any empathy for terrorism victims from Boston to Paris which will finally sink my friend Glenn Greenwald – and if waiters in Paris don’t serve you anymore when they find out that you are this ‘American’ who wrote all this apologetic stuff for Fascistic Murderers you sooner or later are also ‘toast’ in the homeland.
So let’s wait to the end of this year?
AndrewwantsGlenntojust’shutupaboutit.’
LOL.
ATTENTION: GLENN
‘We vomit’ on our new friends, declares Charlie Hebdo cartoonist
Asked specifically about support from Geert Wilders:
Some of GG’s critics below have raised what I believe is a valid point, namely, that his argument appears to rest largely on the assumption that France’s repression of free speech — in the form of, for example, fines — is somehow equivalent (or even slightly, remotely comparable) to ACTUALLY FUCKING MURDERING PEOPLE for their speech. That assumption is, to put it quite mildly, dubious.
Gator, I call major bullshit. Glenn did not say or remotely imply what you argue. Did you miss this paragraph:
In-fucking-deed.
Hi Mona. I wish you still participated here more frequently.
I did read the paragraph you quote. I also read where Glenn wrote: “Where were all the post-Hebdo crusaders when these 12 individuals were criminally convicted for expressing their political views critical of Israel? Nowhere to be found.”
Isn’t Glenn suggesting that people who were upset about French people being murdered for their speech should have likewise been upset about BDS activists being punished with fairly nominal fines for their speech? Doesn’t that imply that one act of speech suppression (murder) is comparable to the other (imposition of fines)? Indeed, if Glenn doesn’t view them as comparable, why would it bother him that people got upset about one but not the other?
Gator, I can’t believe you are serious. I am also more upset at the French government than at some horrible criminals. Moreover, I imagine the Charlie Hebdo dead are writhing in their graves over it.
Government is supposed to be the good guys, the protectors of our liberties, including speech. In France, this just happened:
French police have placed 24 activists under ‘house arrest’ ahead of the major UN climate warming COP21 talks starting near Paris next week.
The French interior ministry said Friday the government was trying to prevent the activists from demonstrating ahead of the COP21 conference, but their lawyers and Amnesty International accused the government of abusing the ‘state of emergency’ put into effect after the Paris attacks.
If I have to explain what is horrifying about that, well, I just can’t.
Mona- I note your decision not to answer any of my questions. I assume you concede I construed Glenn’s words correctly.
I certainly think putting activists under house arrest pending major public events is wrong. I also think fining people for BDS advocacy is wrong. But I don’t believe, as Glenn evidently does, that people who find those things less upsetting than mass murder in retaliation for speech are necessarily hypocrites.
You should assume I won’t dignify it with an answer that takes your accusation seriously.
Nah, I know you better than that. If you could have refuted my point, you would have.
Just because Glenn is talking about two different things doesn’t mean he is saying they’re comparable. If the KKK decides to shoot me because they don’t like my speech, it doesn’t mean that the the government gets to tell the KKK that they can’t spread their message. Glenn is more concerned about the actions of the government who is supposed to protect the speech rights of both myself and the KKK. Glenn is criticizing the government for protecting my rights, and not the rights of the KKK also. It doesn’t mean he’s comparing my speech, to the KKK shooting me.
I don’t of course mean to compare the KKK to the average person, Muslim or otherwise, protesting on behalf of BDS against Israel. I was merely trying my best at an analogy.
Aha!
So ‘the government’ is the lesser evil and therefore it should be supported because nobody in France was sent to the guillotine for saying things. At least not recently.
So we must be supporters of (the lesser) evil and proud of it. This is quite revolutionary and it’s very original.
Why is equivalence required for defending free speech?
Beyond that, while it’s true that violence against journalists can result in self-censorship, actually passing laws to make speech illegal probably has more of an effect on people’s ability to express the speech in question, don’t you think?
Not to mention putting French climate activists under fucking house arrest so they cannot protest an international conference. France slouching toward fascism is of more ultimate concern than a vicious murder.
Yet, many cannot raise a peep about the former ( if they don’t actually approve), while they shrieked to the heavens about liberté and free speech in the wake of the Hebdo massacre.
Hollande is a stinking Zionist mole.The French media is predominately Zionist,just like here.End of story.End of France?
I dunno, it might depend on the severity of the penalty for non-compliance with the law. If it’s merely a modest fine as in the case of the BDS activists, I think I would more likely be deterred by a credible threat of death.
The friendliest country for the free press according to the RSF, Finland has laws limiting free speech and has used them against its citizens. How many TV stations in the US or Europe have showed the Danish cartoons that caused death and destructions around the world? In an age when images define the media, none of them would dare present a G rated pic to inform the public about the cause of the violence. Do you think it was just a coincidence that TI printed a very small Mohammed cartoon that we could barely see while the whole page was loaded with cartoons against Jews? Even they know as journalists they have a better chance of survival against Jewish extremists than against Islamist terrorists. Greenwald himself would rather lie about Charlie Hebdo falsely claiming it has relentlessly targeted Muslims than share with his readers the images for which those jpurnalists got killed.
Journalists can fight government laws, they can vote for another government. They cannot vote for another terrorist!
Here’s the Gator we’ve seen before.
This behavior was displayed recently on ABC when they showed a clip of a woman crying out, “i don’t care whether the man was crazy or not, people are killing Jews!”. This regarding a shooting in Israel by a mentally disturbed man. The guy’s father apologized profusely for his son’s act but his son was mentally ill and, in Israel, weapons are more ubiquitous than they are in the US.
There are lots of people getting killed these days but Jews always seem to be so indignant when it’s a fellow tribe-mate with life spilled on the cobblestones. Gator is one of those “proud to be a Jew”.
The Charlie Hebdo killings were the end of me respecting Greenwald. His complete indifference to the killings because the people were an “oppressed minority” opened my eyes.
Watch Glenn when someone dies from a terrorist attack in Israel. Radio silence. But if someone dies from the US or Israel Glenn won’t shut up about it. So Glenn isn’t any different than the people he is taking to task in this article.
Far left is no different than the far right. In a different world Glenn would still be screaming about Benghazi.
Oh I know, awful, innit? The American media rants on and on about murdered Palestinians and IDF war crimes — and hardly ever mentions dead Israelis or Hamas’s rickety rockets. God knows, they just won’t shut up about all the Muslim wedding parties and families killed by our drones and democracy weapons. It’s disgusting.
You’d think Glenn could step in and give the Israel and U.S. side, but no. He’s right in there, taking the safe course, and following the herd.
So basically the good guys like Glenn can be hypocrites because of the evil Israel and US? I’m having trouble seeing the difference between Glenn and Fox news. Just flip what they think is the “good” side.
In which case you cannot be reasoned with.
I can help you out. Fox News are cheerleaders for their tribe. Glenn is not, nor should he be. Your argument can be summarized as follows: Glenn Greenwald should be less effective at what he does, to the point where he wouldn’t matter anymore because he’d be doing the same thing everyone else does. Then you’d be happy.
Glenn Greenwald is an anti Western, anti Israel and a terrorist sympathizer.
His logic for bashing Israel is that the US provides aids to that state. His logic for bashing Saudi Arabia is that the US sells weapons to that state although US taxpayers do not give any financial assistance to the Kingdom.
But you will not see any articles from him bashing the PLO that receives US taxpayers money while abusing their own citizens.
Charlie Hebdo is not responsible for Muslims being oppressed in France. Morever, Charlie Hebdo’s bulk religious criticism has always been against the Catholic Church. Fewer than 2% of CH publications were related to Islam in ten years! Of course, Greenwald will never report that fact as it would be inconsistent with his anti Western propaganda.
His typical response when terrorists kill civilians is to describe their acts as atrocities, and then to blame Western policies. Maybe he ought to tell us what would a Yazidi, a Iraqi Shia or an Afghan kid do in order to avoid being killed after the West changes its policies. I guess they would have to change their belief to that of ISIL or Taliban to survive.
I think like 90% of this is spot on. But I don’t think Glenn is an anti Western propagandist. He just has far left ideology that makes him only report or care about stories that confirm his view of the world. Really no different than a breitbart”journalist”.
How many Brietbart journalists have led an international paper to the Pulitzer Prize? How many have won Polk Awards? Or an Izzy? That’s what I thought.
Pulitzer Prize and Polk Awards are also given to conspiracy theorists such as Seymour Hersh. What is your point? Those prizes make an individual a good journalist? There is also a Presidential Medal recipient who was arrested for indecent assault.
Are you serious? You write those BS and you want TI to ban me?
I’m quite happy to see Glenn in the company of Sy “My Lai stories” Hersh. As well as Sy “Abu Ghraib” Hersh. He won a Pulitzer for the former. This only further highlights the absurdity of claiming Glenn is akin to the clown car at Beritbart.
He is not far-left, hardly left at all. He is a American “progressive” libertarian. He never speaks out for socio-economic justice or against capitalism.
shut the fuck up already
Doug Salzmann
What is wrong with exposing oneself to other viewpoints, re: Barret’s book ( which I have not read )?
There’s nothing wrong with exposure to others’ viewpoints, Pat, but there’s so much to read and life is so short and, therefore , when I see patently obvious nonsense like this:
I know that there’s no need to waste any of the valuable minutes I have remaining investigating further. Some lunatic theories, “the WTC towers were brought down by controlled demolition” and “the Hebdo attacks and the recent Paris massacre were false flag psy-ops,” are so obviously ridiculous as to require no inquiry at all.
There are currently 2 viewpoints in this world;Either the commonality of humanity,or that some are more equal than others.
The Zionists and their prostitutes believe the latter.
I think we – I include myself – are missing a bigger picture. Tribalism and erosion of liberties are on the rise everywhere. Things may be more apparent in France because that country is especially targeted by terrorism, but I don’t think it’s worse there than elsewhere. It’s a deep social development. Families are torn apart when one member is far right and another liberal. Colleagues distrust each other when one of them embraces Islam and the other is scared by that. Ethnic tensions are rising everywhere, from France to Germany to the US to Pakistan. And that cannot be explained by government decision this or terrorist attack that.
Politicians are just running after a deeper social movement born, perhaps, of a fear of resource scarcity. The French government has been hamhanded but in the end it makes no real difference. It wants to pretend it’s in charge but it isn’t. Things are happening on a local level, an individual level. Politicians are running after the facts.
The mother of my children risks three months imprisonment because she refused to give the police her DNA after a minor squabble (over homeless people’s rights). Her lawyer told her that in today’s environment there was no chance the court would uphold her right to genetic privacy. But, he advised, “Do it anyway. You’ll wear your condemnation as a badge of honor for the rest of your life.”
It’s the little people who matter now. That’s why I so emotionally disagree with people who characterize French marchers as bigots, xenophobes or at best idiots. The people I saw in the marches were everything but. They knew they mattered – but only if they spoke out. And it works, too, for a while. In 2002 similar initially spontaneous marches sent the Front National back into the wilderness, at least for a while – including in the 2015 regional elections when it was denied a single victory. The citizenry of the so-called “front républicain” is not what it was, true. It may well become a minority, very quickly. But I admire it, and I wish people in other countries would also march in defense of liberté, égalité, fraternité without waiting for marching orders from politicians or pundits. It’s easy to stay at home and criticize those who hit the streets. At least don’t mischaracterize why they do it.
Nice contribution, Hans. I believe we’ve seen you here before, yes?
What the French govt is doing is simply awful, and I think many of us reading here do understand that there are complex socio-politoc-economic issues involved. And yes, France is not alone; the U.S. has also adopted a heinous statute — upheld by our Supreme Court — that criminalizes many forms of expressing even the most innocuous support for any organization that could in any manner be considered terrorist. Including, selling a cable package that carries a Hezbolloah channel. A NY man was sentenced to over six years in prison for that.
Glenn Greenwald usually writes about the horrifying attacks on civil liberties in the nation of which he is a citizen — the U.S. But these terrorist events now go international, and Charlie Hebdo certainly did. That opens up France to his civil libertarian magnifying glass.
It’s good to hear from people living in France to get their perspective on what’s happening.
This is a reflection of the lower self, which, by definition, feels insecure, is fearful, is selfish, and sees otherness.
Having leaders who reflect the higher will help.
You’ve written the same comment on this string at least five times before. So why didn’t you spontaneously march for libertè, ègalitè and fraternitè with the besieged people of Gaza when the apartheid State of Israel was indiscriminately murdering them? No doubt many people in France were directly affected, so why no solidarité? Were you waiting for marching orders from politicians and pundits, or were you deterred by the fact that the government of France had declared demonstrations in support of besieged Palestinians illegal, to be punished by one year in prison and a 15 000 EUR fine? Just as it had declared support for BDS an illegaal act?
I can understand being deterred by fines and jail time, but let’s not cloak the words of libertè, fraternité, with the concept of égalité.
I didn’t march in Gaza because I don’t live in Gaza, but I’ve often participated in pro-Palestinian demonstrations.
And those are not spontaneous because upsetting things happen all the time and spontaneous demonstrations are very, very rare. They happen – in only a few countries – when something exceptional happens and people have the feeling things will never be the same again.
“Where were, and where are, all the self-proclaimed free speech advocates about all of that?”
Because if they protest government restrictions on free speech, they’ll probably go to jail where they will lose their freedom of speech entirely.
It’s a catch-22 when it comes to protesting such restrictions.
Angel Scott
I did not know about the book that you referenced. Thanks.
Now, who allegedly carried out the staged psy-ops, according to the author, and why?
Angel Scott
I did not know about the book you reference. Thanks.
Now who staged the psy-op, according to the author, that is? And why?
Is no one in this comment section going to bring up the fact that Hebdo, like “Paris” was a staged psy-op? This has been completely proven in Dr. Kevin Barretts brave book, “We Are Not Charlie Hebdo.”
How can we discuss this topic and leave out this most important fact?
Oh, boy. Now we have Hebdo Troofers.
Get that “Ignore” function operating, soon, if you don’t want to see a mass exodus of sane, thoughtful and well-informed comments BTL, Glenn.
All one can say to that is;There are plenty of holes in every atrocity from 9-11 to the present,that invite the disbelief you disparage,namely that every one of these events enforce the Zionarrative of hate death war and retribution.
In France, the battle for freedom of speech was lost a long time ago. It’s true the French were once at the forefront of promoting free speech, but most of those trail blazers ended up being guillotined. So I see these marches mostly as an act of nostalgia. The people who participate know that free speech is not really in play, so it’s a bit unfair to accuse them of hypocrisy. All they’re doing is indulging in a bit of fantasy.
The final nail in the coffin of free speech was the probably the 2003 French law (Criminal Code clause 433-5-1), which created the offense of “public insult to the national anthem”, punishable by six months in prison. That anthem enjoins the citizens – “Let’s march, let’s march”. So in France, the right to march in support of free speech is guaranteed – providing you don’t actually engage in free speech. So Mr. Greenwald, by mocking the marchers, is in fact insulting the French national anthem – and will be subject to six months imprisonment should he ever visit the land of liberté.
Everyone who is anybody knows that a good parade is more important than free speech.
‘So Mr. Greenwald, by mocking the marchers, is in fact insulting the French national anthem – and will be subject to six months imprisonment should he ever visit the land of liberté.’
No he won’t – as Italian Fascists are historically very bad in predicting anything – but let me predict something much more consequential.
Mr. Greenwald might not be served in some of the best restaurants in the area of Charlie Hebdos Office – as some French waiters there have much less tolerance for what they consider to be: Terrorist apologists – than the commenters on this blog.
I can’t believe that a French waiter would ignore a customer.
cake, I am going to go out on a limb and say I know for a fact that Glenn Greenwald loses no sleep worrying whether French waiters will serve him. He likely worries about that as much as that Her Majesty the Queen of England might find him off-putting.
There has been a lot of reasonable explanation of the European View now – and it shoul lead to some kind of understanding – as it did when one commenter stated: We understand but we reject it.
And as this commenter took the freedom to speak for American let me speak for Europeans.
We reject the American View rejecting European Laws about Hate Speech – nearly as strongly as we reject the US Law to bear arms-
In France, the people are free only to the extent they are allowed move about inside their pens. In fact, the last time I was in France, I heard them speaking a lot about Le Pen and how they were going to vote for it. So freedom is quite unpopular.
‘In France, the people are free only to the extent they are allowed move about inside their pens.’
Wrong again – In France, the people have the freedom to eat Quiche, which is not allowed in the US. In fact, the last time I was in the US, I heard them speaking a lot about not eating Quiche and how real men don’t eat Quiche. So in the US freedom is quite unpopular. At least concerning eating Quiche and driving as fast as I like on a so called ‘freeway’!
The US needs a speed limit on its freeways; otherwise too many innocent bystanders get killed in drive by shootings.
Now see – we finally got to the point how wrong Glenn Greenwald truly is – it is speed limits which protect innocent bystander and not some silly freedom of speech.
pieceofcake
“We reject the American View rejecting European Laws about Hate Speech – nearly as strongly as we reject the US Law to bear arms-”
Speak for yourself cake, but I am European too and I might agree with you on the gun laws (that i don’t like them), but you certainly do not speak for the whole of Europe (certainly not me) when you say that i would support the hate speech laws. I personally find it disgusting that people would speak hateful about other, but i do believe that they have the right to do so, just as much as I have the right not to do so. I am a firm believer in total free speech, everyone should be able to say what they want. Acting on these words is of course a totally different matter.
So stop claiming that you speak for Europe, because you don’t, and neither do I. I speak for myself as do you, stick to that and for the rest you can shut up.
‘So stop claiming that you speak for Europe, because you don’t, ‘
I agree – that is why I wrote:
As this commenter (AN AMERICAN COMMENTER) – took the freedom to speak for American let me speak for Europeans.
We reject the American View rejecting European Laws about Hate Speech – nearly as strongly as we reject the US Law to bear arms.
” I am a firm believer in total free speech, everyone should be able to say what they want. Acting on these words is of course a totally different matter.
So stop claiming that you speak for Europe, because you don’t, and neither do I.”
But, but, can’t you see the contradiction? You believe in total free speech and yet you just told someone to stop saying something. And your basis was: because it isn’t true. But truth is not a test for whether someone is entitled to free speech. If someone speaks what you think isn’t true, you get to call them on it. That’s how real free speech is supposed to work. So I have to wonder whether you did unknowingly or is this an exercise underlying how easy it is to be hypocritical on this subject, some sort of a personal addendum to underline the basic premise of the article by Greenwald?
@Lenk and, of course, Louise
When time-wasting is the goal a regular dullard with associated mockery usually provides sufficient reward.
But there is a point when the well sours and no amount of lime will help.
Charlie Hebdo.
http://www.understandingcharliehebdo.com/
Biggest targets- Front National and Catholic Church.
Anti-racist secular leftwingers are worth celebrating. No idea why you don’t think so.
As the most recent of several to state the statistics, would you to take it farther and explain how they in any way affect what Glenn has written?
There is no shortage of the printed word here today.
The articulate are here. And so are those most awkward with the word.
The unsuspecting, in perfect mingle with the trolls. And the perps. And the baiters. And the Five Eyes.
Truths and half- truths are articulated by some, while whole lies and obfuscation are told by others. Some agree. Some disagree. Few amicably agree to disagree.
Insults are hurled at some while praise is heaped upon others. Some are actives . Some are has-beens.
Some educate and inform. Others expose their lack thereof.
Some want others kicked out. Others understand the need to share this space with everyone.
Others do not like this article. Or the journalist. Yet they cannot help logging onto the site.
But it is all so beautiful. For this is free speech alive.
Well spoken!
Mona
“……And I’d never be in a position to agree with Mr. Cypher. He’s a deluded and vicious authoritarian whose notion of a great intellect is Max boot, FFS…..”
But that avoids the larger question which I posed to you and you avoided purposely:
“……if Louise Cypher agreed with you politically, you would never have a problem with him……”
So the real reason you want him banned is at least partially do to political differences. Did you not read the article by Greenwald – today?
“……if Louise Cypher agreed with you politically, you would never have a problem with him……”
Yes. And Glenn has banished people who agree with him. But in general people who agree with Glenn are too intelligent and reasonable to carry on like that. Such people would never rely on an imbecile like Max Boot.
You may not realize it, Craig, but there are far left (actually far left people, not the inane notion you have about me and Glenn), who hate Glenn (and also me) for the great crime of not being revolutionaries out there burning the muthafucker down. They think he may even be on the payroll of the CIA or, yes, even the Mossad.
They are not welcome to crapflood here, either.
“But in general people who agree with Glenn are too intelligent and reasonable”
LOL LOL LOL
Well said, Glenn. Spot on.
” Because boycotts against Israel were deemed “anti-semitic” by the French court, it was a crime to advocate it. ”
France has a terrible history with regards to the official actions and positions that it has taken in countries where repression similar to Israel’s, has been the normal order of the day.
In apartheid South Africa, France was the second largest trader with South Africa after England, where it supplied that country with weapons which were used to kill Africans, helped with nuclear technology etc., in open violation of UN sanctions.
France also regarded the ANC, a South African, racially inclusive organization that fought for a free South Africa, as a terrorist organization.
I am not the least surprised that they now deem the advocacy of boycotts against Israel a crime.
France to my knowledge never considered the ANC a terrorist organization. Certainly not Nelson Mandela, not even when he was in prison on terrorism charges.
The United States, however, only took the ANC off the terrorist watch list in 2008.
Your point about trade with apartheid South Africa, though, is true. In fact it’s even worse than that: when the UK imposed an arms embargo French companies filled in the gap.
Excellent!
The essential point of divergence is: “do you have a principled view on free speech?”
Mr. Greenwald is using the Hebdo event and the French reaction to point out that the French, and perhaps the West, do not have a “principled view” in this regard.
Numerous posts here provide support for Mr. Greenwald’s view. These posts, at their core, amount to an assertion that some speech, for example by Muslims sympathizers, and those not of the “gramophone mind” are not deserving of being free – each post providing a rationale for denying free speech rights to “the other clan”.
It is often easy for a bystander to recognize a bigot. It is much harder to look in the mirror and see an bigot!
Glenn wrote:
This sort of no true scotsman type of argument really is silly. Sure plenty of people have argued that they “had it coming”, it’s just that those people really aren’t truly left despite how they self identify. But any idiot who wants to kill people and calls himself a muslim deserves the full protection of the label.
And this logic is supposed to be supportive of ‘muslims.’
Who?
@Glenn Greenwald
I will support this argument for you (although I find it extremely unlikely you have never run into this sentiment before, and I think that you are just trying to run me around), but first I want to know what exactly it is I am supposed to prove.
Are you arguing that no one has ever said this?
Are you arguing that no one who self identifies as ‘left’ has ever said this?
Are you arguing that no one who is truly ‘left’ has ever said this?
Also, will you explain whether you believe that “left” and “muslim” are only self identified, or if there exists an authoritative definition beyond what people who self identify believe, and whether this self identification only applies to an individual, or if it should be averaged and sliced and diced among the population of those who self identify with a word.
I believe that these words have no authoritative definition and apply only to an individual, and cannot be averaged or broken in to percentages across a population of people who self identify with a specific label.
In other words, if you identify as “left”, then your definition is authoritative (only for yourself of course) and if 99% of people who self identify as “left” believe that “Ride Along” was a terrible film despite Kevin Hart, then this belief has nothing to do with you or your definition of “left”.
You could just say who argued that they had it coming. Well, maybe not.
@Mike Sulzer
If Glenn’s argument is that no one on the ‘true left’ has made this argument, then nothing I post can disprove that because he controls the definition of ‘true left’ and it really is a pointless, stupid partisan argument. My point is not to disparage people who self identify as ‘left’, but to point out the contradiction between allowing ‘muslims’ to self identify but not the ‘left.’
Unless you self identify under a word like ‘left’ or ‘muslim’, then I have no idea why you would try to even define it. To me that is up to an individual that chooses to self identify under that word.
If your philosophy has a name, you are already in trouble, and if your philosophy is named after a street sign then you are likely headed over a cliff–but seriously–I don’t care what your metaphor is, only what you do with it. I think religion and race are stupid and destructive ideas, but if belief in god or belief in race gets you off your ass and fighting for justice for all, then God bless Black Jesus.
I don’t care what your metaphor is, only what you do with it.
I support christianity by wanting christians to modernize and embrace peace, rights for all, free speech, etc. In other words, I support christians by wanting them to follow and adhere to my philosophies. I don’t support christianity by mitigating and providing excuses for any act committed by someone just because they self identify with the word christian.
Why would it be any different for muslims, atheists, democrats or republicans? It’s not the label on the jar, but he contents of the jar.
Condemning those who identify with the labels of the out group, and forgiving those who self identify with the labels of the in group is par for the political course. Nothing is improved and nothing changes because the point is never improvement and progress but endless war and endless enemies. Always labels above philosophy. Just swap the labels and watch everyone appropriate the arguments of the other side–without any embarrassment or self awareness.
That the “debate” over islam in the US is overwhelmingly ‘left’ vs. ‘right’ restated is beyond pathetic.
To sum up: I couldn’t care less about defining what is ‘left’ or ‘right’ or ‘muslim’ or ‘christian’, but the idea that no one has argued that “if you pull the tiger’s tail, then you should expect to be bitten”–really hasn’t been following this “debate”, or is just trying to defend their “in” group.
I just found it really awkward that Glenn felt the need to defend the word ‘left.’ If he self identifies under the word ‘left’ and wants to protect the name by insisting that the ‘true left’ would never say such a thing, then why would you define ‘true muslims’ as people who kill others over cartoons.
That disparity makes no sense, especially if you profess to be defending ‘muslims.’
Do you want to actually engage any of the ideas here, or do you just want to play the partisan game? If the partisan game is most important to you, then at least give me some parameters that can be proven true or false–not this bullshit that you alone define what is the ‘true left’ or the ‘sane left’ or the ‘important left.’
Can this statement:
be made only by a leftist?
No not at all. You can say whatever you want, and self identify as however you want, but I really don’t understand why anyone would want to define a “magic”* word that they don’t self identify under except to demonize. I don’t self identify as ‘left’ so I have no desire to define ‘leftist’. Besides I believe in unqualified self identification, so even if I did self identify as left, I could never deny someone else the ability to self define that same “magic” word however they want.
Side Note: Glenn’s statement is so hedged that it belongs in the back yard.
If you believe that “left’ is purely self identified with no other qualifiers, then Glenn’s statement is meaningless.
Watch: I am now self identifying as ‘left’, and I am now saying that the cartoonists had it coming. Now, you can argue that I am not ‘true left’ because I am not sincere, but you have simply added qualifiers that deny people the ability to self identify under a word, and have created a sincerity test that you control. If you believe that these words are purely self identified then it makes no sense to qualify that definition–even using sincerity, or especially using sincerity–because if there is a sincerity exception then there are no true christians and no true muslims. Everyone is insincere–or maybe it is more accurate to say that sincerity can never be tested.
I understand that for people who worship the words ‘left’ and ‘right’ as artifacts of God, then this argument is sophistry at best and heresy at worst. But denying someone self identification because you deem them insincere is a religious proclamation that you are really god, or at least speak for god.
Before you dismiss my argument out of hand, think through the sincerity exception and see if anyone, especially yourself, can survive.
Your ability to see my argument as credible and sincere is directly tied to your belief that these “magic” words have no definition beyond self identification. People get really hung up on the sincerity argument because they don’t believe these words are truly self identified. That these words have a meaning beyond self identification. This is just the belief in God transferred to the secular realm.
Now this belief in unqualified self identification means that these words have no meaning outside of the self defined, and have no common meaning at all, which really defeats the purpose of sharing “magic” words with others. Of course, this belief really bothers people who choose the same name as others because it’s the idea of common meaning that attracted them to these shared words in the first place.
If these words aren’t purely self identified, then we are back to the “true left’ and ‘true muslims’ bullshit, with preachers arguing who really speaks for God.
My arguments here are completely sincere and not in anyway an admission that I would have any trouble locating people who self identify as ‘left’ and who hold any and all positions–that is why search engines were built.
There were a couple very interesting stories posted here about an ISIS manifesto stating that the point of what they do is to eliminate gray and make everyone go to the side they truly support. Well this seems to really work on Glenn because he is never more partisan than when he writes about this issue. Trust me I can understand his frustration and willful speaking voice. The demonization of the word muslim pisses me off to no end, but if we make these words the province of religion by denying unqualified self identification, then this issue can only be adjudicated by those who believe they speak for God.
*A magic word is a word that is used for ascension and creation by an individual. I has no dictionary definition when it is used in it’s magic form.
Understanding that Muslim extremists would be very very angry at blasphemers(or provocateurs) of said religion is quite different than saying they had it coming.
Do we condemn jaywalkers?
Noam Chomsky, Georges Galloway and you.
Saying you condemn the attacks and then stating that the newspaper spent the bulk of its resources bashing Islam (which is false) and therefore enraging Muslims is just another way to say they had it coming.
“Liberté d’expression” is the french for “censorship”.
Thanks to Novlang.
Additional, and more general, comment.
If one judges France by US standards one will always miss something. The French have a vision of a paternal state, very different from the “distrust of goverment” prevalent in the US. They are also less manichean than Americans (then again, almost everyone is). In other words, they do not distinguish between good and evil in absolute terms. You’ll never see a French movie in which the bad guy says “Join the forces of evil”.
Charlie Hebdo for the most part (certainly its chief editor Charb) believed in absolute freedom of speech. Very few French do. Very few of the people who marched after the murders did so in defense of ABSOLUTE free speech. They are comfortable with a system in which there are limits, set by elected government (and not by some foreign oil sheikh, for example), with minor punishments for their infringement (definitely not the death penalty).
In the US people will counteract the growth of the surveillance state through FOIA requests, court action, and the like – things Glenn does, to his credit. In France the system of checks and balances is very different. Courts are not as independent of the executive as they should be, and everyone knows it. The most important check on state power is the people.
I’ve seen people march in defense of “republican values” on different occasions. But “republican values” in France are not just abstract, constitutional ones. When then-PM Balladur wanted to create a kind of charter school system, the French hit the streets and forced him to withdraw his plans. This was about more than education. The public-school concept is a foundation of the French republican system.
More recently “republican” has come to mean especially resistance against the far-right. In the recent regional elections the Socialist Party withdrew its candidates in two key regions to give a better chance to its arch-rivals of the traditional right wing. Thus a Front National victory in those regions was averted. Is there any other country where one of the major parties would do such a thing?
Most of all, though, it is the power of the street that contains the state. No, people don’t march 365 days a year, to protest this, to protest that, and one can always criticize them for that. But when they march it is huge. In 2002 the Front National after making it to the second round of the presidential elections suffered the biggest humilation of its history. People marched, in the beginning spontaneously. Politicians latched on. A dynamic was born, that of the “republican front” which despite Sarkozy’s efforts to destroy it survives to this day.
Following the Charlie attacks, people again didn’t wait for government or courts or pundits to act. They took matters into their own hands. The marches were clearly – to anyone who was in them – protests not only against the violent censorship of Al Qaeda, but also against any attempt by the far right to capitalize on the attacks. Once again politicians sat up and took heed. The final march, organized by the state, explicitly excluded the Front National. That would not have happened if the first marches had been xenophobic as Glenn seems to think. They weren’t.
It’s an imperfect system but so are all others. Civil liberties are on the decline worldwide, and tribalism is on the rise. I don’t idealize the French. After almost thirty years in the country, and the many abuses of state power I’ve seen, I continue to be amazed by their “daddy” vision of the State. But one thing I really love in my adoptive country and it is this: the citizenry is not apathetic.
Well, then, put a finer point on that “delicate equlibirium” that was upset by the attacks, which you spoke of below, because the specifics of that equilibrium appear to be exactly what Glenn is criticizing.
It would appear that it consists of this:
It’s appropriate for the government to imprison people for anti-semitic comments.
But not this:
It’s appropriate for the government to imprison people for anti-Muslim comments.
Do I have that wrong?
Also, had the government imprisoned the Charlie Hebdo cartoonists for their anti-Muslim cartoons (before the brutal murders, of course), would that have been acceptable?
If the government had imprisoned the cartoonists for anti-semitic or anti-Christian cartoons, would that have been acceptable?
I am not denying that government uses double standards.
I do deny that Charlie Hebdo used double standards, and I also deny that the marches following the attacks were in defense of double standards.
Then what were the marches in defense of? I thought they were in defense of that equilibrium, and if that equilibrium includes (very pertinent) double standards, then the demonstration was necessarily in defense of those double standards.
I am not denying that government has been using double standards ever since January 2015. In fact I’d go back further, to the election of Nicolas Sarkozy in 2007, but I would not agree that the marches were in favor of that development or of double standards.
The equilibrium I refer to is the relationship between the state and the people, and between minorities and the majority. I never said those were comfortable relationships. But the Charlie attacks were like 9/11 in the US. It was clear things would never be the same again. The marches were an attempt to salvage what could be salvaged of the republican model. Nobody who marched said the latter was perfect or free of hypocrisy. They did see clearly that the future was likely to be worse.
Oh yeah,those traditional right wing parties have sure given France great things recently,from Sarkosi to Hollande,the socialist Nazi.
You must not like the French.
“Where were all the post-Hebdo crusaders when these 12 individuals were criminally convicted for expressing their political views critical of Israel? Nowhere to be found.”
Well, that’s not true to begin with. A lot of people were upset, and the draconian laws being passed are not welcomed by one and all as Glenn seems to think. But there’s a difference between being killed for expression and a suspended sentence, and it’s rather logical that the one should shock more than the other. No?
Glenn continues the mischaracterization of the January marches (and of Charlie Hebdo itself) that he’s been guilty of from the beginning. I was in those marches. I saw the same people I saw in 2002, when (also spontaneous) marches were held to protest the fact that the Front National made it to the second round in the presidentials. The Front National was explicitly excluded from the final Paris March. To say that people marched because they hated Muslims and were using free speech as an excuse is so over-the-top, it’s just unbelievable.
Charlie Hebdo by the way was the most virulently pro-Palestinian (and anti-Front National) magazine in France. Glenn may not want to admit it but the French actually know the magazine. It’s smack in the tradition of Voltaire’s “Candide” which also insulted many religious people. People knew why they were marching. Glenn still doesn’t.
Possibly, if all one is referencing is the immediate reaction to an act of bloody carnage. But not if one is assessing a government’s attacks on speech for all.
No. Especially if one includes the world leaders who showed up for all that public piety. Like Benajmin Netanyahu. And many average French people think harassing Muslims is just fine, and they also have no problem with the government’s authoritarian restrictions on speech.
“…….Possibly, if all one is referencing is the immediate reaction to an act of bloody carnage. But not if one is assessing a government’s attacks on speech for all…..”
But it is the carnage that directly leads to the restrictions. You may not like it, and the restrictions may be over the top, but killing, war and conflict lead to restrictions on free speech and other rights as well.
And authoritarians like you, Craig, just love it when governments use this violence to invest the state with more power and abuse, which in turn feeds more resentment of the sort that led to the carnage in the first place.
“…….And authoritarians like you, Craig, just love it when governments use this violence to invest the state with more power and abuse, which in turn feeds more resentment of the sort that led to the carnage in the first place……”
Led to the violence in the first place? Are you saying that limiting protest against Israel led to the violence in France? It sure doesn’t take much to get adherents of the “religion of peace” to murder innocents in its name. That is radical thinking Mona, but not for the radical left. You don’t even have to insult the prophet to get yourself killed.
And what about the 130 victims to Islamic terrorism in the Paris attack? Well, as we all know, they were really not victims at all. They were the perpetrators of crimes against humanity which is why we never hear about them at the Intercept. They all indulged in anti Muslim racism, supported the bombing of all those Muslim majority countries, stole natural resources (from Muslims), supported neo-liberal policies and are responsible for the rising oceans. My God, what have we done?
Thanks to the radical left, we can all sleep better knowing if we are murdered by Islamic extremist, it was well deserved. Damn, if Christopher Columbus had just been stillborn, this would have been a peaceful world.
And this is the drain into which all of your arguments eventually disappear: an ill-defined, the ‘radical-left is bad,’ catch-all polemic.
It’s widely understood that you credit Glenn’s articles generally as belonging in the anti-American, anti-Israel conglomerate; not because Glenn’s demonstrably anti-American or anti-Israel, per se, but rather because he (and a majority of the commenters here) hold a different view of the world than you.
You’ll say Glenn (and a majority of the commenters here) hold these positions because of some sort of easily prescribed group delusion.
I’ll say you’re wrong – for many reasons – none of which rely on any form of collective punishment that so easily (and hypocritically) flies from your fingertips.
Your constant premise of the (logically inconsistent) view that people belong in groups that you define is intellectually ludicrous from the start. What of their ideas? Are they formed, as you repeatedly say, merely because of the group they are placed in, or are their thoughts their own? In other words, where is the nuance in any of your arguments?
More important, where are the guiding principles from which you argue? That torture is OK? That assigning blame based not on what is said but on who said it is somehow a rebuttal? Morally bankrupt and self-pandering, I say.
Remarkably, this pigeonholing and labeling is as nuanced as your arguments ever get. That is why what you are doing here is only a practice of self-affirmation, not one of dialog. You are the epitome of confirmation bias, logical inconsistency, and tortured straw-men, and for these reasons you have value here – as something to demonstrate what not to be and how not to argue a point of view.
Glenn, instead, begins with an idea or two that, irrespective of any group will (or should) nevertheless apply equally.
One of the overarching ideas that apply to many of Glenn’s articles is hypocrisy. In this case it begins with the notion that if you say you believe in the idea of free speech, you do so by applying that idea equally without regard to any specific groups. This is an idea I support, not because it’s Glenn’s idea, but because I held it and practiced it in my life long before I had ever heard of Glenn (or you). It’s a premise that I use and that shapes my worldview.
In this case many Western leaders failed the anti-hypocrisy test, a point that you fail to argue. Instead, you argue that it’s not those who unequally apply a fundamental principle of most democracies (however wide that spectrum may be) that should be held accountable for their own words, it’s the ‘radical leftists’ that magically caused it all to transpire.
Sure, one could argue (simply and badly) that you are a typical right wing nut job that thinks these things because of that or some other group identity – but that would be as incorrect as claiming that “Israel” or “Muslims” or “Americans” are collectively wrong only because they are in the that particular group.
It’s an unprincipled stand that you partake of unswervingly – and you are challenged unmercifully and rightfully because your ideas are wrong – not because of any group that you may belong to is wrong.
In the end, this literary turpitude is what makes your arguments both enigmatic and sadly predictable, in that you have the ability to form complete sentences that are as grammatically correct as most, and yet when these statements are whittled down to what is actually being said it’s nothing more than the ongoing admonition of yours that certain pigeonholed ideologies (defined by the pigeon, you) are the ills that Western society suffers from most, and not the hypocritical and morally bankrupts acts themselves.
An aside: since you won’t learn a tiny bit of HTML in order to blockquote, please use this site for formatting your replies.
It won’t make your ideas any better, but it will make them easier on the eyes.
Hi Sillyputty
Sorry, I don’t take your criticisms seriously. You lost any credibility with me a long time ago. Frankly, I don’t care what you think anyway. Try responding to the articles for once instead of just to my responses to the article (or other people).
Above all else, don’t take yourself to seriously because none of us in this forum have any impact on world geopolitics except possibly the journalists.
Thanks for your response.
What a splendid exposition!!!!!!!
The radical left;In power all over the world.Jesus,are you clowns idiots or what?
Yeah,the radical left installed a Muslim hating racist religious state in the midst of that religion.And they’ve backed it ever since with non existent weaponry,troops tanks and planes the radical left possesses.
Your naked serial lying does nothing but invite contempt for you and your chosen promised land,which has only eaten your souls into hollow shells.
Please don’t blame the party goers for the party crasher, and don’t blame the French demonstrators for the fact that Netanyahu invited himself.
“not if one is assessing a government’s attacks on speech for all”. That’s the crux of the issue, isn’t it? It’s where Glenn is wrong. Very few people in France are free speech absolutists. Very few of the people in the marches were free speech absolutists. France is a country with a paternal-state tradition, very much unlike the “distrust of government” that underlies US political tradition.
Charb was a free-speech absolutist for sure. He once protested the fact that a rightwing rally AGAINST HIMSELF had been banned and asked that it be allowed. But he was an exception to the general rule.
France has a completely different system of checks and balances than the US. That’s why its public demonstrations – a major factor therein – are so little understood outside the country. The French in January 2015 did not march for an absolute principle. They marched because a delicate equilibrium had been spectacularly upset.
Does Olivier Cyran count as “french”? http://posthypnotic.randomstatic.net/charliehebdo/Charlie_Hebdo_article%2011.htm
How about Emmanuel Todd? Does he count as “French”? http://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/aug/28/emmanuel-todd-the-french-thinker-who-wont-toe-the-charlie-hebdo-line
Coming here and saying: “Hey, I’m French, so now all my opinions about Charlie Hebdo are binding” is a really lame way to argue, especially when it’s so easy to point to other people who are at least as French as you are who vehemently disagree with your claims.
But you do not have to be French or American to understand simple statistics:
https://kenanmalik.wordpress.com/2016/01/07/charlie-hebdo-one-year-on/
Unless you really cannot comprehend simple statistics, then your continuous description of CH as a relentless anti Muslim outfit is just pure propaganda. What kind of relentless anti Muslim newspaper used only 2% of its issues to criticize Islam in ten years while three times as many covers to bash Catholicism?
Olivier Cyran had scores to settle. I’ve read his viewpoints and don’t disagree with all of them, even if I think he overdoes it. But I happen to respect Charb more.
As for Emmanuel Todd, he is one of the few French “intellectuals” I really like and respect. But on the CH marches he missed it. His method consisted of looking at where marches were big, and comparing that with maps on Front National votes. Surprise! In areas where people were really, really worried about the Front National, marches were big. But that doesn’t mean the Front National marched. His argument is a terrible one. One might similarly argue that in Ferguson, the protesters were racists. Because there is more racism in Ferguson than in Vermont, right? Using maps is a bad methodology and Todd has been rightly criticized for it.
I’m not French but I do know France better than you do. And I also would point out that the mischaracterization of Charlie that many in the anglosaxon press were guilty of were due to two factors: a very different (and more polite) culture of satire, and the fact that CH was not a web media. The only CH cartoons, following the attacks, that everybody saw on the internet were those disrespectful of Islam (or of fundamentalists). That is not at all representative of Charlie Hebdo.
And as for my “really lame way to argue, especially when it’s so easy to point to other people who are at least as French as you are who vehemently disagree with your claims”:
do those French people deny that Charlie Hebdo criticized discrimination against minorities? They may not like the publication, but do they support your line that it was a minority-bashing, xenophobic publication?
I really like you Glenn and immensely respect your work. But on CH, you’re doubling down on an initial viewpoint that was simply uninformed.
I was appalled when, in your first article on the subject, you triumphantly published all sorts of Jew-bashing cartoons from Iran and elsewhere, claiming they’d never be published in the West. All you had to do to find equal mockery of Judaism, and even more virulent critiques of Israeli policy, was open Charlie Hebdo itself. It was what you often criticize others of: sloppy reporting.
I was appalled when, in that same article, you accused the murdered cartoonists of double standards because CH had fired a writer for antisemitism. Siné was fired because he made fun of the Sarkozy family; antisemitism was the excuse. And the murdered cartoonists had the courage to publicly protest against their own employer for it. Charb was a personal friend of Siné until his death. Other cartoonists signed a petition against the firing. That’s double standards? You printed the accusation without even reading the Wikipedia article on the subject. It was hearsay, not fact.
And I continue to be appalled at your labeling of French marches as hypocritical, even xenophobic. Well, I’m sorry that I was actually there and that I actually saw the faces and the signs of the people who marched. Very few people marched in ABSOLUTE defense of freedom of speech. Even less people marched because of some abstract ideal. People were shocked and worried, and they were not going to wait until Very Important People sorted things out. I heard no speeches blaming minorities. I did hear speeches about how France had failed minorities. I saw no signs “Muslims out”. I did see signs reading “JesuisAhmed”. I marched with a friend who lives like a nomad, in a Gypsy wagon, and who suffers police and other harrassment on a daily basis. He said “Today we’re proud, tomorrow we’ll puke”. He was right. But if the French had stayed at home, things would have been worse.
So the Front National was explicitly excluded, but Netanyahoo was explicitly included, right in the front line ? Sort of like he was leading the march? And the “people”, sort of wannabe “Sans Culottes”, just followed because the “people knew why they were marching”? Wooohooo!
You miss the point. The first marches in France were entirely spontaneous. No one led them. I was in an “organized” one in Toulouse which was not led by anyone either, and which upon reaching its destination just continued for another mile or two.
Yes, the people knew why they were marching. Politicians followed, days after the first demonstrations. And no one was going to miss the Paris march just because Netanyahu invited himself. The VIPs in front didn’t matter. It was the whole point.
What do you mean Netanyahoo “invited himself”? Isn’t a march sort of like “free speech”? If you believe in free speech, should you not believe in freedom of assembly? Why didn’t the Front National invite themselves?
In 2014 France became the first country in the world to ban pro-Palestine marches, against the slaughter that Israel was raining down upon Gaza. Many, many more innocent Palestinians were murdered, than just the 14 that were killed in the Hebdo attack. Did you march in support of the children of Gaza that were murdered by Israel? I am sure many French citizens were personally touched by that slaughter. Or did the threat by the French government, of one year in prison and a 14 000 EUR fine, deter you from exercising that fine equilibrium that you claim marches are supposed to bring to the polity of France, and that you claim many of us here just don’t understand?
Is the world “hypocrite” a bit too weak for the French government and the people that seem to be in awe of it?
Unfortunately, Glenn again relies on that Olivier Cyran hit piece on Charlie Hebdo. One of the better rebuttals to it is written by an atheist Arab woman, a former Muslim, who is on the Charlie Hebdo staff and is aware that Cyran left on bitter terms with many of the staff he criticizes:
—————
On December 5th [2013], I learned in the press that I have a terrible disease. The diagnosis, by Olivier Cyran on the website Article 11, is definitive: I am a racist. … and I contracted this dangerous syndrome from the editorial staff of Charlie Hebdo. An occupational illness, then. Because Olivier Cyran is himself a veteran of the shop, though I never had the pleasure of meeting him — since he had the luck, and the balls, according to him, to get out before the infection could spread through the paper — I’ve decided to address him as tu, since we use tu among colleagues at Charlie.
[…]
Enough generalities, which I didn’t think a man of the pen needed to be reminded of. If I’ve taken up mine to answer you, it is not solely to defend myself from racism, but above all because in my journalist’s memory I have rarely resented an opinion column as much as I did yours. If you will allow an Arab to address her own complaint, let me tell you that your rhetoric and arguments are the most sophisticated variety of racism that exists in France. Rare are those today who would risk shouting from the rooftops, “Ragheads Out!” The extremists who would do so would immediately be jeered by you, by me, and by a majority of the French people. First of all, you quote Bernard Maris, Catherine, Charb, Caroline Fourest. What about me, what about me! You preferred to omit my name, when it was my articles that you pointed to as dangerously “Islamophobic,” thus, according to you, necessarily racist. Frankly, I wondered why, and I see only two options:
Either
you didn’t want to let Charlie Hebdo’s detractors (who can only subscribe to your thinking if they never read the paper) know that the author of these racist ravings belongs precisely to the Muslim “race,” …Or maybe you spared me because in my case you have no personal scores to settle, as you do with a fair number of your former colleagues. In that case, I would have readers seek the motives behind your article somewhere other than the realm of ideas.
[…]
You see, Olivier, this Charlie Hebdo that was totally not racist when you were working there, but which inexorably became so after you left it, does not need anti-racist lessons from you, and it’s the Arab who’s telling you so. Personally, I never worked with [Philippe] Val and I don’t know if I would have been able, as you were, to listen to his encomiums to Israel, a racist and colonial state, at every editorial meeting in order to keep my job. For me, it’s the pen of Charb, one of the most pro-Palestinian writers in the French press, with which I find affinity. Charb, because of this lynching to which you are contributing through the confusion of your ideas, is today being threatened by al-Qaeda and lives under police protection. So which side is hatred on?
Collegial greetings [salutations collégiales],
Zaynab bint Mohammad ibn al-Mâatî al-Rhazwî al-Harîzî
Ah, Mona … my issues with Charlie Hebdo’s (dyslexics untie!) cartoons about Islam are as follows:
1. The cartoons were grossly ignorant (as distinct from grossly ‘racist’) about the very subject they were intended to ridicule: “Islam” *see Sufi Muslim for more in-depth detail ~ i only have 3 or 4 translations of Qur’an to work with…
2. More importantly, they raised the misleading spectre in the (French-speaking!) public’s eye that Islam is ruled by iron-fisted, “rag-headed” raving lunatics hell-bent on Apocalypse now. *that’s like portraying Jim Jones as the poster-boy for Christianity, imo!
3. Lola ibid; there is a difference between criticizing the content of Charlie Hedbo’s cartoons and criticizing their (God-given) inalienable right to publish it.
*bonus points: I wonder what Glenn, the Philosopher King of free spaking, so to speak, would have to say about the “JuisSuisCharlieHebdo” Saudi rulers beheading that Shia Cleric for [peacefully] speaking his mind?
bah, I can’t find a Sufi comment on the Charlie Hebdo contents. Anyway, Glenn tends to mischaracterizes Charlie Hebdo.
This site is helpful for explaining some of the cartoons in the context of French culture and politics.
A total irrelevancy that doesn’t remotely dilute, let alone, negate the substantive arguments he makes about the magazine and why he finds its satire so cheap and counter-productive.
It’s fine to dispute the substance of Cyran’s claims but saying that he had fights with people on the stuff isn’t a refutation.
Also, whether CH is “racist” Is a much less interesting question than whether it devoted the bulk of its efforts to picking on a marginalized minority in France and making then even more vulnerable and hated. I wrote about the latter critique here, not the former.
“whether it devoted the bulk of its efforts to picking on a marginalized minority in France and making then even more vulnerable and hated”.
Well, it didn’t. I challenge you to find a single publication that criticized police brutality against Arabs (or Israeli brutality against Palestinians) more often. Funny way of “picking on a marginalized minority”. Satire against a religion – or against fundamentalist preachers thereof – is not the same thing as discrimination of a minority. Particularly when one believes, rightly or wrongly, that religion oppresses people.
Moreover, satire is satire. Many Charlie cartoons have been interpreted in the Anglosaxon press as insults to Islam when they were insults to certain practitioners of Islam. An example: the shocking cartoon of burqa-clad women praying to Mecca with bared bottoms. Insult to Islam? It’s a PRECISE description of how fundamentalist groups see women: as creatures who must be modest, pious, and available for sex at all times.
Yes.
Rightly or wrongly, the Muslims would consider this as an insult to Islam.
Generally, the cartoons, like this, are interpreted in light of what the West has been doing to the Muslims for several centuries, especially colonization of them by the West and its consequences that are still felt, and its support of the Muslim tyrants, destruction of Iraq, etc.
One may disagree with the Muslims on that, but I can assure you that drawing of cartoons, such as the one you’ve described, saddens and insults Muslims in general.
Most of us will follow the Quran’s recommendation to ignore such insults and act with patience and forgiveness, but the insults are nevertheless felt.
But we also feel that such insults are more a reflection of the inner states of those who throw these insults at us (perhaps without such realization) than a reflection of us or the religion of Islam as we understand it.
We are also very saddened when a few in our midst react to these insults with acts that I consider to be a reflection of the lower self.
“Most of us will follow the Quran’s recommendation to ignore such insults and act with patience and forgiveness, but the insults are nevertheless felt.”
Go to Raqqah and let them know.
“Also, whether CH is “racist” Is a much less interesting question than whether it devoted the bulk of its efforts to picking on a marginalized minority in France and making then even more vulnerable and hated. I wrote about the latter critique here, not the former.”
The bulk of CH effort was against Catholicism. Isn’t part of your job as a journalist to perform proper research? I can lie, your stupid supporters can call me a troll and even ask you to ban me. But numbers do not lie.
http://www.lemonde.fr/idees/article/2015/02/24/non-charlie-hebdo-n-est-pas-obsede-par-l-islam_4582419_3232.html (In French)
These numbers categorically proved that in ten years 55% of CH religious satires, and articles were directed at Christianity and only 18% directed at Islam. Fewer than 2% of CH covers were directed at Islam in ten years.
In what scientific world 18% is considered the bulk while 55% is not?
In what scientific world a value less than 2% is considered the bulk?
I guess on Greenwald’s planet.
Irrelevant? You described Cyran’s piece as the ” most eloquently expressed” critique of the sort you had in mind. His entire piece begins and ends with mocking Charlie Hebdo for objecting to being called racist, and concludes: “the machine for refining crude racism isn’t just profitable, but also extremely fragile.”
As the CH Arab writer herself points out, Cyran’s vitriolic, uncharitable characterizations, and ignoring her in particular, could be motivated by animus toward a place he left on bad terms. Back then, he certainly didn’t seem to find the “satire so cheap-and counter-productive,” even tho the editor was constantly contrasting good Israel with savage Arabs.
As for whether CH picked on a marginalized minority, it certainly stood up against bigotry against Arabs, which has been pervasive in France since before you or I were born. And, as the Arab CH writer says, Cyran’s attack on the magazine has been used to great effect to attack her by the theocratic assholes in Morocco.
CH comes from a tradition of vulgar and even adolescent satire of all religious pretensions as well as rightwing figures. You may think they ought not “punch down” (and I generally think that’s the right approach), but by their lights, no one and no religion is exempt.
The atheist Arab woman on their staff feels liberated attacking Islam as any other religion is attacked. But unlike a wretch like, say Ayaan Hirsi Ali, she does not flee to neoconservative views and support for Israel’s oppression of Palestinians. No, for her, and it seems the magazine, they simply refuse to soften their usual anti-religious satire because it has become dangerous to do so — but they do that at the same time they stand politically for Muslim rights, including for Palestinians.
If their motives were, as Cyran would have it, financial, it would appear they were willing to die for the money. Cyran is a vile asshole.
The problem with much of the criticism of Charlie Hebdo is that it is simply not true. See, for example: https://kenanmalik.wordpress.com/2016/01/07/charlie-hebdo-one-year-on/ for a concise summary.
Two relevant quotes:
“In fact, a study last February by Le Monde of Charlie Hebdo covers in a ten-year period from January 2005 to January 2015 showed that of 523 covers, only seven (or 1.3 per cent) were linked specifically to Islam. By contrast, three times as many covers – 21 – targeted Catholicism.”
“There is certainly discrimination against, and hostility towards, Muslims. But that does not make any criticism of Islam a case of ‘punching down’. Minority communities are not homogenous groups. There are power relations within Muslim communities as well between Muslim communities and wider society. There are reactionaries within Muslim communities as there are outside of them.”
Nobody can speak for the dead, but I doubt anyone, even the people who worked there, could agree with everything Charlie Hebdo did or wrote. That was the profession they were, and are, in: to provoke, anger, annoy, poke, ridicule, challenge. It’s fair to criticize their work, whether they’re alive or whether they were among those whose lives were ended by Saïd and Chérif Kouachi. But please do so fairly, and consult all those who have written eloquent defenses of Charlie Hebdo’s work. That is the least we can do to honor the memory of the dead.
If this is a response to Glenn’s article, it misses the mark. Glenn is not criticizing Charlie Hebdo.
“I certainly did hear, and myself expressed, opposition to the relentless targeting of a marginalized minority in France by Hebdo cartoonists “
That quote does not make your case that Glenn in this article is criticizing Charlie Hebdo. It is taken completely out of context and changes the meaning.
Yet, Greenwald’s supporters get upset whenever I call them stupid.
“I certainly did hear, and myself expressed, opposition to the relentless targeting of a marginalized minority in France by Hebdo cartoonists”
I = Glenn Greenwald
Expressed = communicated, indicated
Opposition = objection, resistance
Relentless = persistent, constant
Minority = Muslims
That sentence is in the 13th paragraph and 6th line in the article above. Greenwald even elaborated on it by quoting a Hebdo staffer. Maybe you are so embarrassed that your cult leader, Greenwald has been proven wrong through scientific data that you brain moves from stupidity to insanity.
@ lola
There is a difference between criticizing the content of Charlie Hebdo’s cartoons and criticizing their God-given right to print it.
In lenkworld Glenn has been “proven wrong by scientific data.” But not in the world the rest of of inhabit.
But you are right as against Mr. Sulzer. Congratulations on your stopped clock moment.
That Lenk probably broke your heart as you keep referring me to him/her. What happened? He/She hurt you by destroying your stupid arguments?
But whether or not Glenn or anybody criticized CH is irrelevant to the main point of this article. My statement “Glenn is not criticizing Charlie Hebdo.” means just that, not that Glenn has never criticized CH. Is this so hard for everybody to understand?
No wonder that you count paragraphs and lines. Understanding in this case requires being able to keep in mind ideas across several paragraphs; your attention span hardly exceeds a fraction of a sentence.
The purpose of this article is not to criticize Charlie Hebdo.
BUT
Glenn Greenwald criticizes Charlie Hebdo in this article.
Do you understand the difference between those two sentences? Probably not as you clearly stated “Glenn is not criticizing Charlie Hebdo”. A factually incorrect statement.
The second sentence gives Erik Moeller and everybody else who reads the article the right to evaluate Greenwald’s description of Charlie Hebdo in this article. If information in an article is not truthful, then readers have the right to question the authors’ understanding of the main subject of the article and even the author’s agenda. Unfortunately, narrow minded individuals like you or Mona would run to Greenwald and ask him to ban readers who do that. That proves my point that most of his supporters like you are stupid.
Criticizing CH is very relevant to the main point of the article that suggests that the French public disregards free speech restrictions against Muslims while that public shows solidarity to CH that relentlessly targeted Muslims. That is not an accurate overview of the situation as 98% of CH cartoons in the last ten years were directed at the Catholic Church. That is a scientific fact that they cannot be denied.
“That is not an accurate overview of the situation as 98% of CH cartoons in the last ten years were directed at the Catholic Church”
Corrected: 55% of RELIGIOUS CH cartoons and articles in the last ten years were directed at the Catholic Church and 98% of CH covers had nothing to do with Islam.
The statement under discussion is not a criticism of CH, but rather a recognition of criticism in the past. If there is a statement of such current criticism in the article, then I agree with you; otherwise, no, you are simply misunderstanding a simple statement.
EM proposed the statement in question as proof that Glenn criticizes CH (in this article, I think, but he actually did not completely explain what he meant). I objected and continue to object, and nothing you and others have said shows a problem with my objection.
“The statement under discussion is not a criticism of CH, but rather a recognition of criticism in the past”
1984: Terminator is a ridiculous movie. Poor scripts, bad acting, cheap special effects.
1991: As opposed to the poor scripts and bad acting in Terminator 1, which I reviewed three years, Terminator 2 has a splendid script, perfect actors and sophisticated special effects.
According to your imbecilic brain statements 2 is not a criticism of Terminator 1. It is just a recognition of criticism in the past.
I do call you stupid for a reason. The interesting thing about stupid people is their inability to actually notice how stupid they are.
I take your illogical analogy as an admission that you are wrong and can think of no better way to attempt to sow confusion. Your “1991” statement does contain a criticism of T1. Glenn’s statement under discussion (from quote by EM) does not contain a criticism, only a reference to past criticism.
Does your health insurance cover treatment for stupidity?
“The interesting thing about stupid people is their inability to actually notice how stupid they are.” You’ve got that one right!
And, Glenn cited and approvingly linked to that Olivier Cyran bilge. Above, I excerpted a reply to Mr. Cyran from an Arab woman an the Charlie Hebdo staff. (Some of the parts I excised explain how this woman’s Moroccan government is unpleasantly using Cyran’s criticism against her, a woman who seeks “emancipation from the yoke of state religion.”
and perhaps to explain the European point of view in a way an American might understand: ‘The hate speech laws in France protect individuals and groups from being defamed or insulted because they belong or do not belong, in fact or in fancy, to an ethnicity, a nation, a race, a religion, a sex, or a sexual orientation, or because they have a handicap. Compare that to the US where ‘the Miller test for obscenity, child pornography laws, speech that incites imminent lawless action, and regulation of commercial speech such as advertising’ and rights, such as rights for authors over their works (copyright), protection from imminent or potential violence against particular persons (restrictions on the use of untruths to harm others (slander)’ limit free speech.
So a lawyer might argue that both – Europe and the US restrict free speech just in different manners.
I think everybody already knows that. What you leave out is the special role that legal action against anti-semitism (in the restricted sense) plays, protections that appear over done, while the Muslim minority receives much less protection. Or would you argue that the two are treated equally?
‘Or would you argue that the two are treated equally?’
I didn’t ‘argue and I won’t as I just informed about a European law and who it should protect: It protects ‘individuals and groups from being defamed or insulted because they belong or do not belong, in fact or in fancy, to an ethnicity, a nation, a race, a religion, a sex, or a sexual orientation, or because they have a handicap.’
And there seems to be no reference to ‘political speech’ in that law.
It prohibits political speech. Inherently.
Any lawyer arguing that would be a poor one. The issue is political speech. Virtually all modern nations have laws protecting intellectual property and regulating advertising. But the core value of free speech is political speech.
In that paramount realm of political speech, the U.S. — <a href ="http://www.salon.com/2012/03/12/washingtons_high_powered_terrorist_supporters/while not perfect" — remains the best.
The problem with “incitement” is pretty obvious. Virtually any political speech that is anti-establishment could be seen as “incitement” to violently overthrow the established order. Basically, half the people in this comment section would have broken the law repeatedly.
So, yes, European speech laws are still kind of backward. Worse, though, European countries get a pass for this sort of thing from human rights organizations in a way that developing countries wouldn’t.
I recall when Noam Chomsky defended the right of a crazed French professor to deny the Holocaust….. incidentally something that Chomsky had always thought was nuts, or worse ( “Even to entertain the possibility is to lose one’s humanity”)… the entire French intelligentsia and media seemed to skip the entire period known as The Enlightenment. This was a time, of course, that acknowledged an obvious difference between defending speech and defending it’s content. So France has never really understood freedom of speech, and rather accepts the Nazi version instead. Even Goebbels supported speech that he liked.
Orwell would love the irony that should be obvious to any 10 year old. In a place so dedicated to supporting Israel, its an odd way to remember the victims of the greatest mass murderers of the 20th century… to adopt a major principle of their murderers.
By the way, Canada isn’t much better. Signed a Canadian living in the US.
Concerning the New Year’s Eve attacks in Cologne I suggest to listen to what the German Chancellor Angela Merkel has to say – listening to all of it -also what she had to say about the attacks in Paris and about Charlie and about Hate Speech.
If you do that with a open mind and heart you might start to understand the European point of view – which is quite different than the Black and White view of US Libertarians.
You don’t mean “Libertarian.” You mean: civil libertarian. That runs the gamut from right to left. On matters of political speech the vast majority of Americans take the same civil libertarian view. That is, we understand the European view that favors prohibiting some political speech; we simply reject it.
PLEASE, Glenn and TI –
Can TI write something RATIONAL about those recent New Year’s Eve attacks in Cologne, Germany and some other cities?
Obviously they were awful. But on this mailing list I’m on, the rhetoric is also just awful — very, very anti-migrant, to say the least. There’s lots of rhetoric that “these people” can never be integrated. They’re also reporting that some groups are springing up to defend against future attacks.
This is very concerning to me. Will we just be getting more and more groups just fighting each other?
PLEASE, PLEASE cover this rationally and with some sense of humanity. If for no other reason than it would give me some sensible link to post to the list.
PLEASE. THANKS.
I have some problems with this article and I would be interested in getting feedback from others to see what parts you agree and disagree with.
Greenwald’s argument seems to be this: it is hypocritical of those who protested for freedom of speech after Hebdo to not protest impingements on freedom of speech that have happened in France recently. Their lack of protest for these recent impingements proves that they were just using the Hebdo killings as a vehicle to push anti-muslim bigotry.
Is this an accurate summary? If so, let’s continue.
My first point is – what were the protests after Hebdo essentially about? Were they just about freedom of speech? Or was the sentiment more along the lines of the following: the need to have freedom of speech without being KILLED.
I believe the protests were more about the right to express oneself without being KILLED for doing so. This could explain why people did not protest later impingements on free speech in France, because these impingements did not involve people being killed. If this is the case, it would not be true to call these “crusaders”, as Greenwald condescendingly labels them, hypocrites.
What are your thoughts? Moving on, I just want to ask if I am missing something, or is there a great hypocrisy in the way Greenwald champions for freedom of speech in western countries but says nothing about the horrendous freedom of speech in muslim majority countries? Unless I have missed something? I thought I heard Greenwald once say that we should only be concerned about conditions in our own country and try to make changes there, which is why Greenwald recommends not criticizing muslim majority countries. But then, isn’t it hypocritical for him to critique freedom of speech in Canada, the UK, and France? Why isn’t he just concerned about the USA? Aren’t the limitations in freedom of speech in the west absolutely minimal compared to the limitations in muslim majority countries?
And more broadly, isn’t Greenwald himself contributing to the perpetuation of anti-muslim bigotry by continually shutting down criticisms of islam/islamism which in turn creates a vacuum around this topic, which in turn allows the topic to get hijacked by Right Wing nutjobs?
I really am interested to hear everyone’s thoughts and try to maintain a civil conversation. x
To address your first point, it was clear from the moment the #JeSuisCharlie thing took off that this was just an opportunity for bourgeoise racist scum to come out in favor of something that would make them look a little less like the rightwing assholes they (and you apparently) are.
Not all rightwingers are nutjobs. Some are politicians with really good jobs. Some are teachers. Some are neurosurgeons. Some are housewives. All are cunts.
To address your other “points” would be a waste of time. Civil conversation with Islamophobics always is.
Also, could you please tell me what part of my comment was “islamophobic”?
Just pulling your chain, Jeremy. Have to admit I gave myself a chuckle with the C bomb, too.
So you would deny being prejudiced against Muslims?
Your misogyny stinks…use the word a-hole..means the same thing and everybody’s got one.
To a native speaker your suggestion that “cunts” and “assholes” are the same people is beyond absurd. Cunt.
I don’t know if you’re being genuine about your inquiry into Glenn’s points, but I’ll assume that you are. I’ll do my best to clear things up as I see it. I’m not speaking for Glenn.
1. The options, in France, according to youare
a) If you say something anti-semitic in France, the govt will lock you up, but everybody else will tolerate it.
and
b)if you say something anti-Muslim in France, the govt is cool with it, but some crazy Muslim might KILL you.
I don’t know if those are the only options in France, but it would seem that in France, even BDS is considered anti-Semitic by the govt. Which is crazy, as that is most definitely protest speech about a powerful govt, Israel. How that is prosecutable is beyond me. As far as I’m concerned, ridiculing Muslims, their Prophet or the Quran, is fine, as long as it’s fine to ridicule every other ethnic group. Glenn is stressing the point that in France, free speech is a right, only when it comes to ridiculing Muslims.
2. Yes Glenn has said that he writes about the troubles in his own country as opposed to the troubles in Saudi Arabia. The Charlie Hebdo troubles were covered quite massively in the US. It’s not just a French story. As an American he is well within his rights to write about it. As an American he is also well within his rights to write about Anti-Semitism too.
And while Glenn hasn’t, The Intercept has covered the beheadings in Saudi Arabia, the great new leader of the Human Rights council.
Glenn has never shut down criticism of Islam/Islamism. But he does write against negative treatment of Muslims as a monolithic group, because of terrorist actions by some Muslims, which is what France seems to be doing.
And a lot of people on this thread are cheering France on.
So the concept of “free speech” for which they marched was: it’s OK if the state imprisons us for expressing views we don’t like; we just want to make sure violent maniacs don’t kill us for doing so,/i>? That may be the weirdest formulation of “free speech” I’ve ever heard in my life.
Multiple obvious distortions here:
First, I never said that anyone should “only be concerned about conditions in our own country”. I said – subject to the next point – that this should be one’s primary focus.
Second, I’ve always said that one has a responsibility for the crimes and other bad acts committed not only by one’s own government by also those of its allies, partners, and aid recipients. That’s why critiquing Israel, or the UK, or Saudi Arabia, or France is very much consistent with that view.
Third, your claim that I say “nothing about the horrendous freedom of speech in muslim majority countries” is totally false. Consistent with the above principles, I’ve frequently condemned the free speech policies and other forms of repression in places like Saudi Arabia, UAE, Bahrain, etc. I’m quite sure those are “muslim majority countries.”
Fourth, independent of all of that, the Charlie Hebdo murders and the aftermath were a major global story. It had propaganda impact in almost every country on the planet, certainly in the U.S. It led news coverage for weeks. It is still frequently invoked by influential establishment figures for all sorts of vital points within U.S. discourse. There is absolutely no principle of any kind that suggests I should ignore it or be silent on it.
“First, I never said that anyone should “only be concerned about conditions in our own country”. I said – subject to the next point – that this should be one’s primary focus.”
The primary concern of a citizen is indeed to evaluate his/her own country’s internal and external policies. So, it is logical for a US citizen to show some concerns whenever a foreign government uses US weapons or US cash to commit abuses. However, when that citizen shows his concerns only when specific foreign governments commit abuses with US provided resources (Israel-Mubarak Egypt) while ignoring other governments that do exactly the same with US resources (Egypt Morsi-Venezuela), then portraying that citizen as just an anti American propagandist is fair and accurate.
“Second, I’ve always said that one has a responsibility for the crimes and other bad acts committed not only by one’s own government by also those of its allies, PARTNERS, and AID recipients. That’s why critiquing Israel, or the UK, or Saudi Arabia, or France is very much consistent with that view.”
Yet, you have consistently avoided critiquing Venezuela under Chavez/Maduro while the US has been one of its biggest trading PARTNERS for years regardless of politicians’ rhetoric.
You have consistently avoided critiquing the PLO while it has been one of the biggest recipients of US and European AIDS.
You strangely toned down your bashing of Egypt free speech policies under Morsi while he was receiving military AIDS from the US. Indeed strange after you spent years bashing Mubarak because of his tyrannic policies.
“Consistent with the above principles, I’ve frequently condemned the free speech policies and other forms of repression in places like Saudi Arabia, UAE, Bahrain”
Please make me look stupid by providing ONE article you wrote about the PLO or Hamas free speech policies. The PLO should be a very easy target for you. As opposed to Saudi Arabia, UAE or Bahrain that buys US resources with their own cash the PLO received US taxpayers money.
You keep acting as if Glenn must love the PLO. I don’t know whether he’s ever opined on it, but most Pro-Palestinian activists despise that organization. I certainly do.
I do not know whether he loves the PLO or the Socialist party in Venezuela. I really do not care. He just cannot pretend that he is really concerned about US partners and aids recipients committing abuses while he strangely ignore other partners and aids recipients committing abuses.
In financial terms, the US taxpayer gets a better deal with Saudi Arabia because the Kingdom pays for all weapons and assistance requested. The US taxpayer must either give money to the PLO or lend cash at favorable conditions. Don’t you think it is strange that Greenwald who writes a lot about the ME never opines about a government that receive US aids while committing abuses?
As per Congressional Reports, the Palestinians (let’s say the PLO) has, over the last 20 years, received eight (8) billion USD in aid. Most of those funds have gone to fund the Palestinian police forces, to help the PLO keep the Palestinians in line for Israel. Aid to the apartheid state of Israel averages around three billion USD annually. Over 20 years, that works out to 160 billion US taxpayer dollars. That is just the official aid, there are many aid projects for Israel that are off the books. An example, aid to other countries is allotted quarterly. Israel demands its assistance in one lump sum at the beginning of the year. Think of the interest gained by Israel.
Venezuela has never been a major trading partner for the US. That the US may be a major trading partner for Venezuela is quite another story. Also, our self-righteous correspondent must have missed the elections in Venezuela. Chavez’ party is out. The right wing is in. Always good to get your facts straight before commenting. Otherwise you tend to look rather silly and childishly tantrum-prone.
The Islamic state is calling for the targeting of Jews “everywhere”.
“…….On Friday, the Islamic State claimed responsibility for an attack on Thursday at a hotel in Cairo where Israeli tourists were staying. The group said the attack was a response to a call by the Islamic State leader, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, to target Jews “everywhere.”…….But no one was injured in that attack, which caused light damage to a bus and the hotel facade. Officials said the Israeli tourists at the hotel were not Jews, but Arab Israelis…..”
The attackers must have been dumb and dumber, but the idea is clear as glass to Jews “everywhere” who are being collectively punished for the policies of Israel. That includes Europe and therefore France.
The so-called “Islamic state,” neither authentically Islamic nor a State, despite its rhetoric targets very few Jews. It mainly kills Muslims it disagrees with. But the article to which you have posted your comment has nothing to do with so-called “I.S.” It’s about so-called “freedom of speech” in France.
“……The so-called “Islamic state,” neither authentically Islamic nor a State, despite its rhetoric targets very few Jews…….”
ISIS holds territory whether you recognize that territory or not. Russia holds the Crimea Peninsula, for example, which is not recognized by most of the rest of the world. Whether you call the same state “authentically” Islamic or not is in the eyes of the beholder. Finally, considering the mass murder and carnage wrought by ISIS and their supporters, it’s dangerous to Jews when the leader calls specifically to kill Jews anywhere. It’s not to be downplayed for political reasons.
Good grief Glenn, this article seems to have summoned a whole army of hardcore authoritarians to troll TI and otherwise reject the very idea of free speech and other civil liberties. That you manage to put up with it all without having such commenters banned and/or moderated ought to be proof enough to anyone capable of reason that you genuinely believe in civil liberties. Much respect to you, and excellent article.
And for all the aforementioned hardcore authoritarians, here’s a somewhat appropriate YouTube clip for ya (sadly, YT doesn’t seem to have the whole speech, so I settled for the most effective part): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7Brh9iWajc
The need to believe that Muslims are a uniquely violent and savage menace to superior western culture is deeply ingrained, as it’s all based in tribalism, one of the most potent human drives. The Charlie Hebdo event has become the more cherished tribalistic prize there is for that narrative, so anything that questions or threatens it produces more anger and resentment than just about anything.
That, of course, is precisely why it’s necessary to do it more, not less.
Good article, freedom of expression is abysmal in France (my country).
I would have liked to read “the French government / elite ” rather than “France” though. A significant number of ordinary people support real free speech, however self satisfied and tyrannical the mediatic doctrine at the moment…
Mr. Greenwald
“……That’s because legitimizing anti-Islam rhetoric and demonizing Muslims was their actual cause; free speech was just the pretext…..”
Do you really believe that business is going to carry on as usual in France under the current circumstances, Mr. Greenwald? You excoriate the French for double standards in free speech even as in article after article, you justify Islamic terrorism because of western policies. No one is less surprised by Islamic attacks against the west than you (based on your articles), yet you cannot seem to grasp why Muslims are more scrutinized and surveilled than the rest of the population (other than racism). You have criticized the FBI for “entrapment” of poor “hapless” Muslims who (for some reason) can be coaxed into committing mass murder. Additionally, ISIS has carried on a successful media campaign recruiting thousands of European Muslims to join their brutal campaign in Syria and Iraq (to kill mostly Muslims). Western Muslims joining an anti-democratic, racist terrorist organization cannot provide much comfort for the non-Muslim European population. Muslims returning from the Syrian/Iraq war zone are clearly a threat to the safety of Europeans (i.e., the Paris attacks). Additionally, ISIS has managed to brainwash some western Muslims to murder westerners – as in the attack directed at the social workers in San Bernardino and the Paris attacks.
Indeed, you seem oblivious to the 130 innocent people murdered by Islamic terrorists just 1-1/2 months ago which had a large bearing on French policies. About 150 people died in seven successful Islamic terrorist attacks in France alone in 2015. Numerous others were thwarted by law enforcement. A Jew was targeted and stabbed by three terrorists shortly after the Paris attacks. Jews were targeted and murdered during the Charlie Hebdo slaughter. As far as I know, those attacks against Jews have never been mentioned by anyone at the Intercept despite their being a classic case of collective punishment for the policies of Israel. These are dangerous times for westerners (and Jews) – especially in France with the second largest Muslim population in Western Europe.
You criticize the French government for taking steps to limit protest, but (Sunni) Islamists kill more people through acts of terrorism than anyone else in the world. This is true in Europe as well. These are harsh, but necessary steps to limit the danger to the public. You simply cannot have democracy without security. The roll back of basic rights can be directly attributed to the targeting and murdering of innocent people by Islamic terrorists who infiltrate the west with refugees or as immigrants.
When Muslims get screwed it’s always Mr Greenwald or Sheikh Murtaza who complain, along with sustained cheer-leading by Mona and Sufi. The flag bearers of the Muslim religion in Riyadh seem not to worry at all long as we don’t criticize their detestable activities in Chop-chop Square. They have to change if they expect anyone to respect them.
“…….The flag bearers of the Muslim religion in Riyadh seem not to worry at all long as we don’t criticize their detestable activities in Chop-chop Square…..”
…..or in Yemen.
I heard on NPR today that beheadings and firing squads are the preferred methods for execution in Saudi Arabia.
If you google around a bit you will find links to the Jewish ancestory of the Sauds. If I paste the link here then my comment will never post – because this website is hosted by amazon servers that will scrub those kind of links.
If it’s true then it explains a lot of things.
Huh. Let’s see:
http://www.shoah.org.uk/2012/08/19/saudi-royal-family-is-jewish-king-and-prince-are-all-jew/
https://therearenosunglasses.wordpress.com/2014/02/27/we-the-saudi-family-are-cousins-of-the-jews/
http://www.assatashakur.org/forum/open-forum/3487-saudi-jewish-origin.html
http://wakeupfromyourslumber.blogspot.com/2009/03/saudi-arabia-jewish-bloodline-jewish.html
http://themillenniumreport.com/2015/12/the-jewish-roots-of-the-house-of-saud-family-tree/
@Silly
From now onwards expect to find your posts being monitored.
I’m fairly certain this goes without saying.
“…….If it’s true then it explains a lot of things…….”
You mean a lot about Jews, in “general”?
In “particular”, our love for the Saudis.
Your conclusion is right but your complaint is misguided. Even ISIS folks do not tolerate any criticism of their religion, so why extend any courtesy to them?
Because we’re supposed to be better than ISIS?
Sure, but there is no reason for ISIS to expect us to behave decently with them.
Sure, but…
Typical con response.
Mr Peed,
Looks like you need to drop the “ham” from your name since it appears that you are a “Muslim” or maybe “ISIS” sympathizer. Muslims are not very kind towards pork and its products like ham and bacon.
On the contrary. We love pigs so much that we won’t kill them for anything.
I have no doubt about your affection for “pigs” as you have eloquently declared. But if you notice I said “pork and its products …”. While pigs are animals, pork is food. Subtle difference…
I have a suggestion. Invite Gilad Atzmon to talk on Democracy Now or one of those Pacifica Radio lecture events and wait for the reaction. This should give a good idea of where the problem lies.
– “There were no #JeSuisDieudonné hashtags trending, and it’s almost impossible to find the loudest post-Hebdo Free Speech crusaders denouncing the French and Belgian governments for this attack on free expression.”
Dieudonne is a douche. If his act, which consists of ignorant bigotry, has any value beyond simply ignorant bigotry, it’s not readily apparent to me.
Actually Diedonne’s act, at least the one I saw, would fit in well with Trump, and the other US presidential hopefuls. Full of innuendo, cynicism hatred of “them”. With Trump, the target is the US president, the one who is perhaps not American and maybe not a Christian, the leader of a foreign plot to take away American’s guns.
Diedonne is surprisingly similar to Trump, his act is about the secret, Jewish, greedy puppet masters of France. It may be a mistake to give either Trump or Diedonne the attention a criminal charge bestows…but at least France isn’t considering electing Dieudonne president.
To sum up, If I have a point, it’s this. While I think it helps the cause of free speech, to worship free speech, as the Americans do, we must keep in mind that free speech is a means to an end, not an end in itself. We want free speech, so that through open debate we can enjoy a better society. So we allow criticism, but not incitement to hatred. Criticism leads to improvement whereas hatred leads to violence and death.
I assume you meant “STOP attacking people for speaking their minds, for telling the hard truth and for telling you suck!”
CIA? FBI? or stupid?
Bravo, Glenn!
As one who, along with you, was vilified for deploring Hebdo’s mockery and vilification of a repressed minority at the same time I defended their right to spew the nastiness freely, I thank you for this extremely well-stated and -argued look back.
All you people engaging in tedious conversations with the self-proclaimed hell-bound are making it very hard to scroll through the comments for content. Quit inconveniencing me.
when I saw that free speech march in paris with all those leaders I literally felt sick to my stomach. It’s hard to find the words to express that event. A sham, a big lie, or fake?
It felt like a bunch rapists who are protesting for their rights to rape and not be criticized, but under the guise of innocent school kids.
“Look at us we are so innocent we believe in human rights. We are the civilized ones. Those over there are the bloodthirsty ignorant savages. “
Very much so, Glenn!
Just explaining my significant drop in participation. Between the constant onslaught of the so-called Targeted Individual crazies on the one hand, and the large quantity of ever-returning trolls like Louise Cypher and the one now going by “Lola” on the other, there ‘s too little intelligent discussion to be had here. Most unfortunate, but there it is.
@ Mona
Ditto. I don’t mind going a few rounds with them, but crapflooding the threads with “you’re a Muslim apologist-sympathizer-extreme leftist (whatever that last one means)” because X, reams of non-sequiturs or arguments built on the fallacy of relative privation, and attacks on Glenn based on straw men arguments is degrading the quality of some of the threads.
I’d never advocate banning them, but maybe Glenn could ask them politely to keep it on topic and limit those sorts of attacks to a few comments per thread. Doubt it will work but worth a try.
Trolls get their oxygen from the replies they receive.
If we could get some decent forum software (sorry for the implied insult, TI techies), an “Ignore” function would solve the problem.
Now, I’ll see if I can stay awake long enough for this post and God knows how many others (and She’s out of town) to appear.
That dude is still upset because I exposed his inacurate statements.
“…….maybe Glenn could ask them politely to keep it on topic and limit those sorts of attacks to a few comments per thread…..”
The most prolific off topic crap flooder by far is Mona. Good luck with that one.
Sure Craig, except Glenn doesn’t think so, and neither does hardly anyone else but you. And the litany of reasons why your judgment is as sound as that of a sociopathic retarded person would be too long to list, as well repetitive.
Listen Mona. I don’t care how many times you post or on what topic – but don’t throw out the ridiculous comment that “Glenn doesn’t think so” without disclosing your relationship with him, OK? Or that you politically agree with him 99% of the time. If Louise Cypher agreed with you politically, you would never have a problem with him.
I agree w/ Glenn 90-95% of the time. And almost everyone here knows Glenn and I are friends, Craig. This isn’t a secret. And as I also said, almost no one here would agree with you that I’m a “crapflooder.”
And I’d never be in a position to agree with Mr. Cypher. He’s a deluded and vicious authoritarian whose notion of a great intellect is Max boot, FFS.
I do, and have. And Glenn has done it, usually on his own steam. The problem is they keep returning.
When volumes of crap flood a comment section, and is tolerated, it drives out those who cannot tolerate the flood of crap. It pollutes the discussion and even destroys it.
That’s why many sites have either started enforcing harder rules, or closed altogether. Reasonable and smart people don’t want to participate in a Youtube-level comments environment.
I check in, and I frequently bail out because of the constant stream of horse shit that I don’t want to waste my time with. The repeatedly returning crap-flooders, of the sorts who have been mentioned and pointed out flooding this thread and other threads, need to be permanently banned. There is no reason why commenters coming to a website of the level of The Intercept should have to or should be expected to put up with, as Mona said, “youtube-level comments environment.”
“…….I check in, and I frequently bail out because of the constant stream of horse shit that I don’t want to waste my time with. The repeatedly returning crap-flooders, of the sorts who have been mentioned and pointed out flooding this thread and other threads, need to be permanently banned…..”
You mean the ones that disagree with you politically, right? Did you read the article, Kitt? I surely love to watch the whiners on the far left. There is nothing quite like it.
No, I mean exactly, exactly, exactly the sort of thing you just posted. That response is exactly the same response — to the word — that you and numerous other ass-wipe trolls have used countless times when someone writes something similar to what I wrote. You post words which don’t mean a fucking thing beyond your desire to be an obnoxious, blatant liar who has no shame about posting the same garbage over and over, even after the garbage has been taken to the dump, picked through by seagulls, buried by bulldozers and left to rot in the stench filled grave.
“……No, I mean exactly, exactly, exactly the sort of thing you just posted. That response is exactly the same response — to the word — that you and numerous other ass-wipe trolls have used countless times….”
That is what i always liked about you. You are a pathetic hypocrite only you have no clue you are. In fact, all of the radical left posters on this site are really no different than you. But I’ll keep posting because you folks are just fun.
Thanks.
Ironic for those crusaders of free speech to call for the banning of those who disagree with them. Can you provide me the link of TI rules and definitions of crapflooding and what constitutes a pollution of the discussions?
Because it is really strange that those “trolls” “flood of crap” only come from those who disagree with your cult leader.
You’ve bee told this, many times. Glenn has banned crapflooders who agree with him. I don’t think this has yet occurred here, but it did at Salon. One of those decisions was controversial among his supporters, but he stood by it.
rrheard
“…… I don’t mind going a few rounds with them, but crapflooding the threads with “you’re a Muslim apologist-sympathizer-extreme leftist (whatever that last one means)”…..”
I think your kissing Greenwald’s ass perpetually degrades the threads. If you cannot handle disagreement, find a new hobby.
@ Craig
Well anyone who has been here any length of times, knows that “kissing Greenwald’s ass perpetually” doesn’t really describe me. I agree with what much of what he writes and when I don’t I challenge it based on what I disagree with whether it be logically, morally, or factually.
I can handle disagreements with others just fine. So long as those disagreement have some basis in a difference of opinion re: the logic, or underlying facts, or morality or whatever of what Glenn has actually written or what another commenter has written. But sustained shit-flinging and crapflooding of threads with non-sequiturs, with collateral attacks on Glenn’s character, propping up off topic straw man arguments, and arguing from positions of widely understood logical fallacies detracts from any dialogue. So does an inability to take the time to even learn the basics of formatting one’s posts for readability.
Also not going to be a hypocrite by denying that on occasion I have engaged in personal off-topic dustups with fellow commenters that detract from the value of the thread–because I have. But I’d say, generally speaking and of course with notable exceptions, that over the years I’ve tried to keep my comments generally on topic, stick to providing evidence for assertions and don’t show up here day in an day out just to flood the thread with character attacks on Glenn and catapulting vacuous illogical or off-topic crap.
@Mona
Megadittoes. ;^(
I do not know if Mr. Greenwald wrote this paper from Paris, but it is an objective and correct description of the situation here (for those concerned with civic liberties; there are not many here, until they discover they have been locked in an ‘Orwellian Cage’; which will not happen).
BUT:
‘This is the principle that has long defined authentic free speech activism: those ideas being expressed are vile, but I will work to defend the right of others to express them.’
Apocryphe or not, yours to discover!
This is an officially/conveniently (un)confirmed (?) citation of VOLTAIRE, depends on the context, so massively used during the ‘the Post-Hebdo Free Speech Crusaders’. You will need a special authorization to enter and check with the ‘Archives Nationales’ for authenticity/falsification (?).
“Je ne suis pas d’accord avec ce que vous dites, mais je me battrai jusqu’à la mort pour que vous ayez le droit de le dire.” Voltaire.
Just interchange the word ‘vile’/ ‘ce que vous dites’ for Nazism/ Racism/ Terrorism/ (any)-ism word, and what is your conclusion?
Even National Archives might be falsifications or too ashamed to show the … simple truth.
But Private Ryan can die twice more; he does not care, he is a cat, he has seven lives. He will come back. But the next time he comes in Paris…
‘Paris is France, but France is not Paris’, an ironical, over simplistic and questioning joke, following those events and the latest elections.
For our US friends, it would sound like ‘New York is the USA, but the USA is not New York’. Or Los Angeles.
Constant media bashing have transformed my weakest friends into fearful, suspicious, withdrawn persons, alcoholic or on valium.
First criminals kill you; then a government imprisons you (because the criminals are no more). Intelligence has failed, and then some should find another job. Else, they knew and they are accomplice?
All the crimes committed in Paris are already sanctioned by the Criminal Code.
Constant media bashing with T-Errorism, echo chambers, political manipulations… are (-)Errorism magnification.
Do we have Intelligence, police services…? Get serious about your job, and do not bother about regular citizens; as they are not bothering you.
FEAR, a natural and instinctive reaction to ‘the unknown’ is politically exploited because, we know fear since our very childhood, we hide behind it and we look for a ‘daddy saviour’ figure.
Spreading undue Fear among the population is also a crime, not a protection!
It has cost millions of euros to the city of Paris, job loss and tourism industry down.
I am defending my birth City, because the 130 who died yesterday never dreamt of our City and Homeland, becoming an open space prison, with 1st class and 2nd class prisoners.
By comparison, in France, every day 200 people die from tobacco + 200 from alcohol + 100 from sugar (diabetes) + …
How many people dies in the USA from non (t)-Errorism? Bathtubs are even bigger killers, but no Global War on Bathtubs?
Paris and France have much to offer to the world and to receive from the world.
I believe in the true defenders of our Freedom and Democracy (Christiane Taubira and… the list is long).
Glenny, you did it again!
Your father and I are worried sick!
Now go to your room and think about it!
Charges of selective outrage are themselves often hypocritical, and this case it’s no exception. I don’t recall Glenn raising any concerns when Michel Houellebecq, France’s best known novelist was put on trial for calling Islam “the dumbest religion” or when Brigitte Bardot was for fined for objecting to the ritual slaughter of animals for the festival Eid al-Adha. If he did, I apologize. Freedom of Speech is qualified in numerous way in many different countries, obviously we’re all familiar example of crying “fire” in a crowded theater. I see no evidence that France is applying it’s restrictions hypocritically against the Islamists or their allies. I should add that I have no problem with Dieudonné M’bala M’bala and don’t think he should be prosecuted, but I do think there is a substantive difference between say Holocaust Denial, which Dieudonné M’bala M’bala has been know to flirt with and saying that Muhammad’s Night Journey on winged steed probably didn’t happen.
Much more disturbing to me was the spectacle of International Leftists, who apparently take their literary criticism from Al Qaeda, setting upon their own fallen comrades before the bodies were even cold. So eager were they to declare solidarity with the Islamist and tar the dead cartoonist as racist that they didn’t even both to check with the alleged victim of said racism Taubira, in that cartoon they all began circulating. Some of them even forgot to pay lip service to FOS, before admonishing the dead cartoonist to “punch up” . I’ll add that I imagine if the CH cartoonists had been shot up by supporters of the National Front all those PEN dissidents would have demanded that they permanently rename the award to honor CH forever.
Since were taking the global view you really do have to strain to see Islam as a marginalized sect. It’s the second largest, fastest growing, and least tolerate of all religions. You’ll be pleased to learn that throughout the third of the planet they control there’s no shortage of anti-Semitic cartoons, the mildest criticism of the Prophet can be met with death and freedom of speech isn’t even a concept that’s discussed. Even in Europe, instead of cowering huddled masses you’re just as likely to find gangs of young men with the swaggering confidence of a conquering horde. Perhaps they are confident because they know their allies on the Left in government and the press will do their best to keep their indiscretions private as they tried to do in Cologne and Rotterham
Well said.
However, I would advise against being disturbed too much by what Regressive Left like Greenwald and his ilk are babbling about. They aren’t going to stop any time soon; investing energy – and money – in electing Governments in the West that will decisively deal with Islamofascist menace is far more important.
“I do think there is a substantive difference between say Holocaust Denial … and saying that Muhammad’s Night Journey on winged steed probably didn’t happen.”
So presumably you think the former should be criminal and the latter should not be. Why?
I don’t think holocaust denial should be illegal at all, I don’t even agree with denying them a platform, but one is a fairly well established historical event that occurred to French Jews and the other is almost certainly a fantasy.
Correct, fantasy just like Jesus is the son of God, or more generally the concept of God.
Here we have an example of another professed supporter of free speech who has no idea what free speech support entails. Once again, we find that same tired trope that affirms the act of supporting the right to express an idea and the act of supporting the idea itself are one and the same.
I guess when you read (or pretend to read) an article completely dismantling your intellectually bankrupt world view the best face-saving reaction is to let the point fly over your head and repeat more memorized talking points.
I’ve repeatedly condemned the prosecution of those expressing anti-Muslim speech:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/02/free-speech-twitter-france
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/340497/second-cheer-glenn-greenwald-mark-steyn
http://www.salon.com/2010/03/22/canada_5/
And that’s to say nothing of the multiple clients I represented in free speech cases as a lawyer who said vile things about Muslims, among others.
So I accept your apology.
Of course nobody can condemn every instance of anything, and failure to do so proves nothing.
But when the only speech suppression one objects to is when the ideas one likes are targeted, then it’s strong evidence that one’s free speech beliefs are inauthentic.
And when one makes a particularly flamboyant showing out of parading around for free speech in France when Muslims engage in violence – while ignoring far worse censorship cases both before and after in that same country
– then it’s almost certain that one’s agenda is anything other than free speech.
” far worse censorship cases both before and after”
You can basically understand the entire “Greenwald Worldview” from this single line.
He *actually* thinks that, compared to the merciless, bloody massacre of journalists and Jews in Paris a year ago, perpetrated by murderous Muslim terrorist thugs who punished people for a) depicting their so-called “prophet” and therefore refusing to submit themselves to Muslim supremacist blasphemy code and b) simply being Jews – so basically censoring people out of existence, never mind censoring their work, there were “far worse censorship cases both before and after”.
@ Louise
Despite your straw man, you do realize that the “censorship” he’s talking about isn’t “censorship” defined as killing another human being which he’s never defended or supported, right?
But hey if the best you got is propping up a vitriolic straw man and kicking it over with a fallacy of relative privation, knock yourself out.
ALERT –
To all writing here : LOUISECYPHRE IS A TROLL.
LouiseCyphre engages in daily HATE SPEECH on The Independent and is one of a group responsible for disgusting Islamophobia.
DO NOT ENGAGE WITH LOUISECYPHRE.
DO NOT FEED THE TROLL.
LOUISECYPHRE or LOUISECYPHER or LOUISE CYPHER
This troll is continually blocked from The Independent and uses variation in spelling to re-enter stage and continue with Anti-Muslim HATE SPEECH.
ALERT TO ALL
DO NOT FEED THE TROLL
Okay you’re not a hypocrite, but I still don’t think your charge of hypocrisy holds up. Obviously France has a less than perfect record on Free Speech, as do all countries, but I still don’t see them as necessarily applying their speech codes in prejudiced manner. Clearly they’re willing to prosecute major figures in French culture for criticizing Islam.
I’ll grant you’re pretty consistent on Freedom of Speech issues, but I don’t think your charge of hypocrisy holds up. France is far from perfect on the issue, but the fact that they’re willing to prosecute major figures in French culture over criticism of Islam, shows that they aren’t necessarily prejudiced in the way they apply their speech codes.
Well, the lack of outrage from the populous could probably be attributed to the fact that when this persons freedom of speech was infringed upon, nobody was blown up or savagely murdered in the process.
I have to say Glenn I am huge fan of yours, but this is some fox news level slanting. Although this persons rights WERE infringed upon, comparing the Hebdo tragedy to this, and claiming injustice when the public isn’t in a state of outrage is a little absurd.
“… the lack of outrage from the populous could probably be attributed to the fact that when this persons freedom of speech was infringed upon, nobody was blown up or savagely murdered in the process.”
So you think all those who publicly supported Charlie Hebdo were only doing so because of the brutal murders, but they wouldn’t have objected if the Charlie Hebdo staff had merely been prosecuted and imprisoned by the French government for the cartoons?
I’m pretty sure most of those public declarations were about defending the principle that those cartoonists should not have been punished with any loss of their liberty at all, not merely that their punishment was too harsh. If I’m wrong about that, let me know.
We seem to disagree on our definitions of what constitutes belief, but be that as it may…belief, being the acceptance of the dictates of some authority, is way to fickle to use as any form of evidence to stand upon.. If we only ‘believe’ we have the right to ‘freedom of speech’ then we have already given real freedom of speech up!
Glenn took a beating in the comments section by two lovely people.
To the two lovely people: make note that your comments were not erased.
To everybody beating up on the two people: return fire insults aren’t very logical either.
“make note that your comments were not erased.”
“The Independent” in UK and “The Intercept” are truly the two most liberal and “Western civilized”, as I understand the term, newspaper websites when it comes to this aspect. On Daily Mail, you can’t even type “Muslim” most of the time: and on Al-Qu’ardian, well, let’s just say that Islamic State media is less censored.
That, of course, doesn’t mean that both of them are not ludicrous jihadi fellow traveler rags when it comes to content.
Louise Cypher is a TROLL and spends his/her days writing more than hate-death threats against Muslims.
LouiseCypher aka LouiseCyphre aka Louise Cypher (with a space) – constantly banned from The Independent for hate speech and insults.
Notice the “ludicrous jihadi fellow traveler rags” – referring to other persons’ comments.
This person is scum and should be blocked from this website.
Despicable crap from Greenwald once again. Everytime he opens his mouth on this subject he makes a complete fool of himself. His ignorance of Europe and France and why their free speech conceptualization is different from the fundamentalist USA perspective is stunning. It’s almost incomprehensible that someone could be this ignorant. You will never redeem yourself from the previous idiocy you spewed out, and you will be remembered as an apologist for hate speech and a protecter of Islamist religious fascism, all because of your hatred of the United States and your desire to make it easier for Islamists to strike. YOU are the sham to the progressive community, not France and certainly not Charlie Hebdo.
Pointing out that the US and Europe/France have different conceptions of free speech doesn’t negate my point. It IS my point: Europe/France don’t believe in free speech and don’t protect it, as evidenced by the fact that they prosecute people for expressing political views that the majority dislikes.
If you want to be a self-parody of Orwell, you can say that “Europe has free speech, as long as you only express approved ideas.” But that doesn’t make it any less of a joke.
Look at how fast people went from pretending to be believers in all forms of free speech, even the most offensive, to demanding that “hate speech” be criminalized.
That “hate speech” is not legitimately expressed is the view of those who attacked Charlie Hebdo, those who justified those attacks, and you.
“Look at how fast people went from pretending to be believers in all forms of free speech, even the most offensive, to demanding that “hate speech” be criminalized.”
When a Nazi leader is convincing a 16 years old to hate non whites to the point of killing them or when a mother is convincing a 6 years old to kill the “infidels”, or when an imam is convincing teenagers to drop schools and go to Syria, then most Europeans believe the government should intervene. Again, as a terrorist sympathizer you just cannot understand.
“It IS my point: Europe/France don’t believe in free speech and don’t protect it”
Does it mean RSF was wrong to classify many European countries with those laws as the best place for journalists? You used the same RSF classification to bash Israel.
You should just call Snowden or release more top secret documents. You are expressing ignorance and contradicting yourself.
There’s no evidence Greenwald does anything but support prosecuting people for solicitation of murder. But, like all civil libertarians he defends the right to the most odious speech, even if it influences “a 16 years old to hate non whites to the point of killing them.” Pro-lifers have the right to rant that abortion is murder, even if it means a few radicals will blow up clinics or murder abortionists.
By your inane metrics, Greenwald is “a terrorist sympathizer” vis-a-vis the so-called Army of God abortion warriors.
As I stated and you carefully made my point, as a terrorist sympathizer he would not understand why there is a problem with inciting a 16 years old to kill non whites or go to Syria to kill the infidels.
Thankfully, France and Europe will continute to ignore your babbling fundamentalism, and you will have no influence of their domestic or foreign policies. From today’s news:
France upholds law singling out Holocaust-denial as crime
Associated Press
January 8, 2016
PARIS (AP) — A French high court has upheld the law singling out Holocaust denial as a crime, ruling that the World War II genocide is of a “different nature” than other crimes against humanity.
A math teacher fired after being convicted of Holocaust denial had challenged the law, saying it unfairly punished only those disputing or denying the Jewish Holocaust, but not other crimes against humanity.
The Constitutional Court ruled Friday that the Nazi Holocaust “has in itself a racist and anti-Semitic significance” and, additionally, was committed in part on French territory.
France upholds law singling out Holocaust-denial as crime
Associated Press
January 8, 2016
PARIS (AP) — A French high court has upheld the law singling out Holocaust denial as a crime, ruling that the World War II genocide is of a “different nature” than other crimes against humanity.
A math teacher fired after being convicted of Holocaust denial had challenged the law, saying it unfairly punished only those disputing or denying the Jewish Holocaust, but not other crimes against humanity.
The Constitutional Court ruled Friday that the Nazi Holocaust “has in itself a racist and anti-Semitic significance” and, additionally, was committed in part on French territory.
‘ you will be remembered as an apologist for hate speech and a protecter of Islamist religious fascism’
That’s why in this case I would wish it’s 2007 and we all could start over again…
This is typical Greenwald: he constructs a strawman (“Europe is hypocritical because it doesn’t treat Christians Muslims and Jews the same”); when he is presented with undeniable facts that this is *not* the case, and that, for example, the French and the Germans view denial of Holocaust as *a completely different kind of thing* from mocking Christianity, Judaism or Islam, but that within law *all religions are treated exactly the same*, he gleefully proceeds to construct another strawman, etc.
Louise is stoopid, yet again:
Louise, you accuse Glenn of creating a strawman by…creating a strawman.
Who let the dog out?
“Fundamentalist”? Well free speech limited by laws is not free speech at all, there is nothing ‘fundamentalist” about that, unless you want to include any kind of oppressive regime with a coherent set of law as encouraging free speech. White is white, a little speck of black makes it a shade of grey. Nothing extreme, just an observation.
While I find fundamentalist Islam repulsive, I don’t see why anyone should oppose fundamentalist free speech advocacy. Having a fundamentalist view on basic fundamental rights seems like a perfectly decent thing to do. One would need be some sort of nihilist to hold nothing to be fundamentally true. A fundamentalist nihilist perhaps?
In the context of Islam, Fundamentalism, merely means adhering to the fundamentals of the religion, such as recognizing unity and integration in existence, praying, fasting, charitable work, the Hajj, and carrying out spiritual exercises to groom the self so that it reflects the higher qualities.
Perhaps, you’re seeing Islam in light of another religion that has had a Fundamentalist movement in its history.
Fair enough. In the US we use “fundamentalist Islam” as a shorthand for violent extremism in Islamic communities, even though “fundamentalism” is a term borrowed from a christian movement that had nothing to do with Islam.
– but there seems to be absolutely no possibility that my friend Glenn Greenwald ever will understand the law against hate speech?
As an Italian Fascist named Mussolini said:
There is a gulf of mutual incomprehension between Glenn Greenwald and Europeans on the subject of ‘free speech’. I generally see no discernible benefit in correcting the misapprehensions of others, since at best, one mistaken belief will be replaced by another mistaken belief.
Glenn Greenwald, even relatively educated, has a libertarian streak and believes there are certain spheres which should be outside the purview of government. These areas include free speech, free speech, free speech, but not safety and also speech. So for Glenn Greenwald, free speech simply means free from government regulation.
But I really don’t know if he accepts that any individual who disagrees with what he says has the right to shoot him?
What in the world are you going on about?
trying to be as ‘original’ as you are – up to the point that American Lawyers never should try to comprehend Europeans laws about hate speech –
Let’s leave that to Italian Fascists!
Sorry, I’m always fascinated when anyone can manage to write out so many paragraphs effectively saying nothing. Glenn’s idea is straightforward: governments historically abuse powers to restrict freedom of speech, so government should stay out of that arena as much as practically possible. I’m not sure why that principle should differ depending on geography. I was under the impression that France in particular was the birthplace of the American concept of freedom of speech, see: Declaration of the Rights of Man, and Voltaire, who wrote, “
Sorry, I’m always fascinated when anyone can manage to write out so many paragraphs effectively saying nothing. Glenn’s idea is straightforward: governments historically abuse powers to restrict freedom of speech, so government should stay out of that arena as much as practically possible. I’m not sure why that principle should differ depending on geography. And anyway, I was under the impression that France in particular was in large part the birthplace of the American concept of freedom of speech, see: Declaration of the Rights of Man, and Voltaire, who wrote, ‘Monsieur l’abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write.’
You can say that again.
Which Mussolini are you?
The hot one.
I’m no ‘Mussolini’ – I’m just an American-European citizen who respects the laws on both continents – and as there is a very important anti-fascistic xause for the European Laws against Hate Speech I respect these Laws very much – which might get me in trouble with Italian Fascists -(and Glenn Greenwald) but I’m willong to take this risk.
“there is a very important anti-fascistic xause for the European Laws against Hate Speech”
You are deeply mistaken about this: making any kind of speech illegal (with the actually logical and sensible super-narrow exceptions like America does) only makes that speech more attractive, and causes people to say “hey there must be something true about it if they are jailing people for it” while doing absolutely nothing to “disappear” the content of the speech itself: Holocaust denial is as strong today as it ever was, as is racism, as is antisemitism – if not stronger with all the Muslims pouring in Europe and America, and as is senseless hatred directed at Muslims as individuals.
The causes need to be addressed, but of course Governments instead prefer to engage in rearranging the deck chairs while West is sinking.
Your arguments seem pretty weak to me. The US hasn’t turned into a fascist state in consequence of its lack of hate speech laws. Fascist states are marked by their denial of freedom of speech, not the other way around. Once anti-free speech laws are in place, the subjective nature of language means that all kind of ideas might be subject to prohibition depending on the interpretations of those in power. That Europe’s hate speech laws were nominally passed in reaction to fascism does not make them wise or just.
‘That Europe’s hate speech laws were nominally passed in reaction to fascism does not make them wise or just.’
Now don’t you think that it is incredibly ironic that a commenter with the name ‘Mussolini’ says so?
Or are you actually an American lawyer too – who in your Mussolini words ‘even relatively educated, has a libertarian streak and believes there are certain spheres which should be outside the purview of government. These areas include free speech, free speech, free speech, but not safety and also speech. So for you, free speech simply means free from government regulation?
Well – as you said; There is a gulf of mutual incomprehension between Glenn Greenwald and Europeans on the subject of ‘free speech’ and generally I see no discernible benefit in correcting the misapprehensions of others, since at best, one mistaken belief will be replaced by another mistaken belief.
‘Now don’t you think that it is incredibly ironic that a commenter with the name ‘Mussolini’ says so?’
Ad Hominem
‘Or are you actually an American lawyer too’
Ad Hominem
‘ free speech simply means free from government regulation’
Yes
‘I see no discernible benefit in correcting the misapprehensions of others’
Lets never try to fix or improve anything because it will never be perfect and it’ll just break again…
‘That Europe’s hate speech laws were nominally passed in reaction to fascism does not make them wise or just.’
‘Now don’t you think that it is incredibly ironic that a commenter with the name ‘Mussolini’ says so?’
Ad Hominem’.
Ad Hominem?!
The Irony Part or that a commenter picks the moniker ‘Mussolini’ and then argues like Mussolini?
This one is a gem:
‘The government “ordered prosecutors around the country to crack down on hate speech, anti-Semitism and glorifying terrorism.” There were no marches in defense of their free speech rights.’
So, in your world view, we should be defending hate speech, anti-semitism (and anti-muslim bigotry by the same standards) and glorifying terrorism under the banner of free speech? You mean that his would actually be a good thing? The world would be better off if these kinds of speech were NOT prosecuted?
If you are not saying that, then what the hell are you saying?
Seriously Mr. Greenwald, you are so hard to read that I had to make myself read your whole article after I stopped more than 5 times. You are completely senseless.
If you’re not debating your adversary, then he is debating an empty seat. And empty seats don’t do well at debating.
There are certain attributes that censorship always has in common – usually, the fact that it is inevitably prone to be abused by crooked and dictatorial government officials concerns us the most. In this case, this is overshadowed by the fact that it doesn’t work for the purpose that the officials say it is supposed to accomplish.
Islamic terrorism is too stupid a philosophy, too nasty a threat, for people to cede them the argument and adopt the futile pattern of brutal responses made by a failed state. Their state should fail, not ours. As long as we hold our liberty poles high and trod defiantly on the Korans under our feet, refute the founder and precepts of Islam, and most importantly, recognize when its adherents call attention to brutal American practices and deceptive false reasons for unnecessary war that kills them, and vow to change where we are wrong and stay strong where we are right, then we cannot fail. But if we leave it to the Islamists to take people off to dark corners and show them reams of banned books that prove the “censored truth” of their cause, then we cannot succeed.
Agreed, Jose, his is complete idiot on this topic and an embarrassment to the progressive community.
He is a perfect example of “regressive left” – a term that we will hear a lot about soon, I hope, as they are degraded and ultimately destroyed.
How does the illegality of ‘hate speech’ make Europe a better place to live? The laws have not gotten rid of bigotry or terrorism. What purpose do they serve, aside from empowering the government to control the public dialogue?
How does the illegality of ‘hate speech’ make Europe a better place to live?
No more Mussolinis?
“No more Mussolinis?”
You just be joking. Socialists of his kind are a dime a dozen in Europe today, and they are all perfectly capable of easily sliding into totalitarianism just like he did. Hate speech laws won’t help prevent that.
‘Hate speech laws won’t help prevent that.’
Sorry – but the European in me doesn’t accept this type of argument.
It reminds me too much on the arguments of the American NRA – and I don’t like the NRA.
“the European in me doesn’t accept this type of argument.”
The reality doesn’t care about what you accept or do not accept, dear. It simply bulldozes over you.
‘The reality doesn’t care about what you accept or do not accept, dear. It simply bulldozes over you.’
Not that much in Europe, dear – thanks to the Laws in Europe which not only regulating gun ownership much better than in the US but also Hate Speech.
Some people really don’t know how to read, just like the article explains. We should be defending the right to express hate speech, anti-semitism (and anti-muslim bigotry by the same standards) and glorifying terrorism under the banner of free speech. Absolutely.
Hmm. Well, I do share your disdain for fauxcore poser behavior. It’s like a combination of the worst traits of weaselly used-car salesman combined with the kind of cringeworthy performances you must endure when people are trying to convince you that a mainstream, societally sanctioned position is somehow “cool” and “edgy”. Anyone who has ever been through the DARE program and listened to their teacher performing a really awkward rap about cool kids staying off of drugs; or lived through record companies selling the idea that Avril Lavigne – and then Ashley Simpson – are super authentic punk musicians knows what I mean.
In the words of James Bay “Why don’t you be you, and I’ll be me.” Why is every Tom Dick and Harry a “liberal activist” these days? My limited interaction with actual (I assume) “liberal activists” in the comments section here has led me to think that, quite frankly, in many ways, real liberal activists suck. They are rude and have a zealous streak and take up all kinds of weird subversive positions. But you know what? Fine. You be you. I’ve no doubt you play some vital role in the ecosystem. I feel no need to pretend to be one of you, and if there’s one thing that’s more annoying than actual liberal activists (who at least give off the impression that they throw really cool, weird parties,) it’s upper middle class conservatives randomly pretending to be them. You want security measures in place against the outgroup du jour? Fine, conservatives always have, and often with good reason. But don’t picture yourself as the archetypal Edgey Liberal Activist while doing it. Zip up your North Face jacket, sip your Starbucks latte, and make peace with the fact that your outlook is pretty damn median.
Leave Avril Lavigne out of it, cocksucker… Punk enough for ya. punk? :-)
To be fair, I have always enjoyed her for disseminating such poetic wisdom as “When you’re gone, the face I came to know is missing too”. This is helpful in partings, when you’re all like “Ok, I’m sad you’re leaving, but at least your disembodied face will be hanging on the wall to comfort me in a creepy Silence Of The Lambs kinda way. Wait, say what?! When people leave they take their faces with them?!”
I think you’re missing the sly “Napanee street” reference there to Eliot’s
“There will be time, there will be time
To prepare a face to meet the faces that you meet”.
Much of the slang emanating from the whole skater scene in Eastern Ontario literally rings with tonalities from Eliot, HD and some of the more extempore stylings of Pee-wee Herman back in the day.
But to get back to your point, there is nothing cool about the French, their tendency to slip back into fascist stylee, or these people on here pretending that having a more “European” take on free speech means it’s OK to be authoritarian and bigoted.
As Avril might have put it:
Dressed up like you’re somethin’ else
where you are ain’t where it’s at
you see
you’re making me
laugh out when you strike your pose.
Ahhh….
Past Zionist-Jewish Terrorism –
Some Historical Facts
Following are just a few of the many massacres committed by Jewish-Zionist terrorists, notably by the Zionist Hagana, Irgun and Stern Gang groups.
July 2, 1946: The King David Hotel in Jerusalem was bombed, killing 91 people.
Menachem Begin, who was later awarded the Nobel Prize for peace, is the same man who planned the destruction of the King David Hotel and the massacre of Deir Yassin. Ex prime minister, Shamir, was originally a member of the Jewish terrorist gang called Irgun, which was headed by none other than Menachem Begin. Shamir later moved over to the even more radical “Stern Gang,” which committed many vicious atrocities.
Shamir himself has defended the various assassinations committed by the Irgun and Stern gangs on the grounds that “it was the only way we could operate, because we were so small. So it was more efficient and more moral to go for selected targets.” The selected moral targets in those early days of the founding of the state of Israel included bombing of the King David Hotel and the massacre of Deir Yassin.
April 9, 1948: A combined force of Irgun and Stern Gangs committed a brutal massacre of 260 Arab residents of the village of Deir Yassin. Most of whom were women and children. The Israeli hordes even attacked the dead to satisfy their bestial tendencies. In April, 1954, during Holy Week, and on the eve of Easter, The Christian cemeteries in Haifa were invaded, crosses broken down and trampled under the feet of these miscreants, and the tombs desecrated. The Israeli military conquest, therefore was made against a defenseless people, who had been softened up by such earlier massacres as Deir Yasin (where 250 Arabs; men, women and children were massacred).
The Jew, Weizman, referred to the massacre as this “miraculous simplification of our task,” and Ben Gurion said that “without Deir Yasin there would be no Israel.” Americans are not told that ten percent of the Arabs killed by the Israelis in 1948 were Christian, and that ten percent of the Arab property confiscated belonged to Christians. Nor are they told that Israel’s massacres and military actions forced 100,000 Christians to become refugees.
Accounts by Red Cross and United Nations observers who visited the scene said that the houses were first set on fire and the occupants were shot down as they came out to escape the flames. One pregnant woman had her baby cut out of her stomach with a knife. Reminiscent of the acts committed by their brother Jews in Russia during and after the Bolshevik (Jewish) takeover. The head of the International Red Cross delegation in Palestine, Jacques de Reynier, drove into the village and was met by a detachment of Irgun terrorists. In his report of the massacre the previous night, he wrote: “All of them were young, some even adolescents, men and women armed to the teeth: revolvers, machine-guns, hand-grenades, and knives, most of them still blood-stained. A beautiful young girl with criminal eyes showed me hers (knife) still dripping with blood, she displayed it like a trophy.”
May 1948: The U.S. appointed Count Folke Bernadotte of Sweden to mediate between the Arabs and the Israelis. In his first progress report (of Sept. 16, 1948) he recommended that the U.N. should affirm “the right of the Arab refugees to return to their homes in Jewish controlled territory at the earliest possible date.” The Israelis responded in their own quiet way. The following day Bernadotte was murdered in Jerusalem.
Responsibility for the spectacular assassination, which caused an international outcry, was claimed by an unknown group, “Fatherland Front,” which was actually a cover for Shamir’s Stern Gang. Yoshua Zeitler and Meshlam Markover of Stern told Israeli television in 1989 that they respectively directed and led the operation that killed the Swedish diplomat and his French aide-de-camp. Zeitler, 71, said he decided to speak now because of fear that the U.N. and the “goyim” (non-Jews) are again trying to force Israel into concessions.
February 1949: Israel launched an offensive across the Armistice lines with Egypt which brought its forces to the Gulf of Aqaba, occupying the Palestinian police post of Umm Rashrash which they afterwards named Eilat.
1950: Israelis seized the Al-Uja de-militarized zone on the Egyptian side and Baqqara on the Syrian side, expelling their Arab inhabitants and razed their homes to the ground by bulldozers.
1950-1955: Israeli forces unleashed more than 40 acts of armed aggressions against Arab states, almost all causing a heavy loss of life. This included attacks and massacres in Qibya, Huleh 1953, Nahalin, Kfar Qassem in 1954, Gaza and a Syrian outpost on Lake Tiberias in 1955.
October 14-1 5, 1953 — Under the command of Ariel Sharon, Israeli squads attacked the unarmed Arab village of Qibya in the demilitarized one. Where they blew up 42 houses and killed more than 60 residents who were trapped inside. The details were so gruesome that the U.S. joined in a U.N. condemnation of the Israeli action, and for the first and only time, suspended aid to Israel in reprisal.
July 1954: Israeli intelligence planted “a ring of spies (moles)” in Cairo. Its task was to begin sabotage operations against selected Egyptian, British and American targets. On July 14, the Alexandria post office was fire-bombed, and the U.S. Information Agency offices in Cairo and Alexandria were damaged by fire started by phosphorous incendiary devices, as was a British-owned theater.
Members of the spy ring were caught, and they confessed. They had been planted by Modin, the Israeli military intelligence organization. The purpose, presumably, was to sabotage Egyptian relations with the U.S. and Britain. Various commissions of inquiry into the affair conducted in Israel were never able to decide whether or not Israeli Defense Minister Pinchos Lavon authorized the operation.
MORE JEWISH TERRORISM
1956: Squads of Israeli soldiers committed a hideous atrocity in the Palestinian village of Kafr Qasim, 47 innocent people were shot down in cold blood. The careful and premeditated mass murders, never received great attention in the West. Although the Israeli courts convicted eight soldiers of murder, they were all released within two years of their trial, and within three years one of them who had been convicted of killing 43 Arabs in an hour, was engaged by the municipality of Ramleh as the “officer responsible for Arab affairs in the city.” In October 1956 Israel, backed by England and France, attacked Egypt to gain control of the Suez Canal.
Taking advantage of the situation created by Egypt’s decision of nationalization of the Suez Canal, Israel joined forces with Britain and France to invade Egypt. As a result, it occupied the Sinai Peninsula, seized the Gaza Strip, and Sharm Al sheikh which guarded the Strait of Tiran and the entrance to the Gulf of Aqaba. a year letter it withdrew reluctantly under the combined pressure of the U.N., U.S.A. and the Soviet Union.
There was no military necessity for this destruction; it was sheer vengeance against Arab Christians. This action created another 300,000 Arab refugees, thus making a total refugee population of Christian and Muslin Arabs, which is larger than the combined populations of Montana, Nevada and Wyoming. It was during this campaign that the Israeli’s attacked the U.S.S. Liberty with the death of 34 of its number. If this had been an Egyptian or a Russian attack, American would have been at war, but the Jewish vote of America silenced any American criticisms of this action. Americans are also not told that Israel has always refused to obey any mandate of the United Nations. Resolutions affirmed by vote every year since 1948 recognize the right of the return of Palestinian refugees, but Israel always refuses to obey. Israel has been condemned over and over again for breaking the charter and now fulfilling the conditions upon which she was allowed to become a member!
1960-1962: Israeli forces attacked Syrian villages on Lade Tiberias and brought death to hundreds of Arab civilians.
1966: Squads of Israeli soldiers raided the Jordanian village of Sammu, they killed 18 civilians, wounded 100 others and demolished 130 houses including a school, a clinic and a mosque.
1967: THE U.S.S. Liberty was deliberately attacked in international waters as it monitored communications during the Six-Day War. Israel used U.S.-donated equipment to jam the ship’s S.O.S., hoping to sink it and murder all aboard before word could get out. 34 sailors were butchered and 170 wounded in this blatant Act of War. The Liberty was part of the Sixth Fleet, a powerful group of men and ships paid for by U.S. Taxpayers to protect the Israeli’s. What do the Jews think of our American Service Men, the descendants of the men who pulled their chestnuts out of the fire in World War II?
June 5, 1967: Israeli committed its biggest, most treacherous and premeditated aggression against Egypt, Syria and Jordan. After destroying Arab aircraft on the ground in a lightening attack, Israeli forces invaded and occupied the rest of Palestine, that is, the West Bank, Gaza Strip, East Jerusalem, the Syrian Golan Heights and the Egyptian Sinai Peninsula. In the first days of its aggression and in plain disregard of the truth, Israel fabricated a charge of aggression against its victims and presented it in a dramatic manner to the U.N. Security Council. Western media spread this fabricated story and the whole world sympathized with the supposed victim. In 1967 the Israeli’s made a third ruthless blitzkrieg attack upon the Arabs. This time they deliberately destroyed three quarters of a million dollar’s worth of church property.
The great deception practiced by Israel on the U.N. and the whole world is now completely discredited, the Israelis, therefore, changed their tactics and rely nowadays on the argument that, they were NOT attacked by Egypt, they were in danger of BEING attacked, and hence they resorted to a so-called pre-emptive strike. Alan Hart quotes a former Israeli Director of military intelligence as telling him “if Nasser had not given Israel the excuse to attack the Arabs, Israel would have invented a pretext for war within six or ten months” because its military planners had decided that the time had come to knock out vast amounts of mainly Soviet-supplied Arab armor. Yitzhak Rabin, who as chief of staff planned this attack told Le Monde in February 1968, quite simply: “We knew that Nasser did not intend to attack.”
February 15, 1968: Israel invaded PLO bases in Karamah, on the eastern bank of the River Jordan with helicopter-borne troops and tanks. Three hundred commandos fought off 1,500 Israeli soldiers and force them to retreat. The battle lasted all day and into the evening. Although the village was totally destroyed, the Palestinian defenders repelled the Israelis and inflicted heavy casualties among the invaders. By the Israeli account, they lost 28 soldiers and 90 were wounded.
1969: The Israelis distinguished themselves by committing a horrible crime, in retaliation of attrition war across the Suez Canal, Israeli war planes raided an Egyptian school “Bahr al Baker” in southern Egypt killing 75 children and wounding over 100.
August 1969: An Israeli set fire to one of the most sacred Islamic shrines. Al Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem, causing extensive damage to it. This crime plunged over one billion Muslims throughout the world into the deepest anguish.
March 12, 1970: Israeli forces invaded part of South Lebanon known as “Fatah-Land” killing a number of Palestinian and Lebanese civilians.
September 8, 1972 — Without any apparent cause or reason, Israeli Phantoms bombed Palestinian targets in Lebanon and Syria in a series of raids killing hundreds of civilians. This action was explained by the Israeli prime minister the next day, who in the Knesset, that “Israel had now adopted a new policy to strike at the terrorist organizations where ever we can reach them.”
February 21, 1973: Israel landed commando units on the coasts of the northern Lebanese city of Tripoli. They attacked two Palestinian refugees camps, dynamited several houses and buildings, some over the heads of their occupants, killing 35 refugees and wounding a similar number. On the same day, Israeli war planes shot down a Libyan Civilian Aircraft over the Sinai Desert killing over 100 passengers.
April 10, 1973: Israeli commando units with the help of some Lebanese collaborators stormed into a residential quarter in East Beirut and killed three PLO leaders: Yusef Al Najjar, Kamal Adwan and Kamal Nasser.
1974: Israeli air-borne commando units attacked Beirut airport and destroyed 13 Lebanese civilian aircraft on the ground.
In the same year, Israeli planes intercepted a civilian Syrian aircraft and forced it to land at Lydda (Lod) airport on suspicion that it was carrying a Palestinian commando leader. Christian shrines in Jerusalem were subjected to several acts of aggression and robbery. This included damaging the church of the Holy Sepulchre, burying four other Christian centers, and stealing the diamond Crown of the Virgin Mary.
1975-1980: Israeli’s intelligence service, the Mossad, distinguished itself by feats of terrorist actions that killed a number of Arab and Palestinian diplomats, scientists and journalists such as the PLO representatives in London, Rome, Paris and Brussels, prominent Palestinian journalist and writer Ghassan Kanafani and the Egyptian nuclear scientist Dr. Al Mashad.
1981: Putting their so-called pre-emptive policy in action, Israeli warplanes raided and destroyed a peaceful Iraqi nuclear reactor near Baghdad.
June 6, 1982: The Israeli armed forces invaded Lebanon. Less than two weeks after its election, the New Menachem Begin government unleashed the first blow in its war to liquidate the PLO in Lebanon.
June 1982: Israeli forced launched their savage invasion of Lebanon. As a result of this invasion a great number of refugee camps, Lebanese towns and villages were destroyed. Israeli warplanes launched eight raids on Palestinian targets in South Lebanon and Beirut, killing nearly one thousand people and wounding many others. The fantasy of the “pre-emptive strike policy” was dropped and even the Jerusalem Post correspondent was at pains to explain the purpose of the bombing raids. “The past few days of activities on the northern border followed five weeks of quiet. It is not know what triggered Israeli’s Friday afternoon raid.” Outraged by Israel’s onslaught and the cruel destruction of Beirut, Jewish journalist Jacobo Timmerman called Begin “unbalanced” a “terrorist” and “a disgrace to the people.” He accused Sharon of helping to make Israel “the Prussia of the Middle East.&quo t;
July 17, 1982: U.S. supplied F-4 and F-5 jets swooped low over Beirut in 4 passes, bombing the densely-populated Fakahani district. Five tall apartment buildings were destroyed, 200 people were killed and 800 wounded. Forty percent of the victims were small children, and one of the survivors was an unborn baby pulled by doctors from the dead mother’s womb. Israel’s then Chief-of-staff Rafael Eitan announced on Israeli Radio that civilian causalities were unimportant and that the Arab causalities suffered as of the July 17 attack did not yet constitute the Israeli “final solution.”
September 1982: Israeli raids and bombardments continued during the weeks following the raid on Beirut in July. It was the beginning of the invasion of Beirut; after which an 80 days war led by Ariel Sharon, (then War Minister of Israel) resulted in the destruction of much of Beirut, killing and wounding thousands of Palestinians and Lebanese civilians. It was during this invasion that the massacre of the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps was committed. Where over 2,500 Palestinian women, children and elderly people were slaughtered in cold blood. Even the Israeli high court held a number of the Israeli military officers, including Sharon, responsible.
October 1982: Israeli terrorists bombed the houses, cars and offices of three elected Palestinian mayors on the West Bank, Nablus, Ramallah and Al Beireh.
1984: Israeli warships and gunboats intercepted merchant ships on the high seas off the coast of Lebanon and kidnapped a number of Palestinians.
1985: Israeli planes raided and destroyed the PLO headquarters in Tunis.
1986: Israeli secret agents assassinated a noted Palestinian cartoonist Naji Al Ali, in London.
April 1988: Israeli commando units stormed into the house of Khalil Al Wazir, in Tunis. Al Wazir who was the most senior PLO military commander and believed to be in charge of the Intifada, was murdered while sleeping.
February and March 1989: Israeli F-16 planes pounded Palestinian targets in Lebanon’s Shouf Mountains, Damour and the Beka’s valley with a series of raids killing a numbers of civilians, including 15 school children in Damour.
April 14, 1989: Israeli border guards and settlers attacked the peaceful and unarmed village of Nahalin near Bethlehem. Eight Palestinians were massacred for no reason and over 50 were injured. The killings took place late in the night and at the beginning of the Holy month of Ramadan.
Could this sort of actions by the Jews be the reason they have been run out of every country on earth, except the United States, and there is not much doubt that one day America will realize just how much the Jews despise and loth them; and they too will rise up and drive them out.
TL;DR
Maybe you should read it.
You know, you don’t HAVE to post here and write nothing but vacuous abuse.
The Naji Al Ali case looks pretty serious. I found it on Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naji_al-Ali#cite_note-13
There’s just enough wiggle room with the whole PLO/Mossad double agent story to wonder, but the caches of weapons and the claim of diplomatic immunity for the alleged murder of a cartoonist … I *would* like to see this explored in more detail. Any chance The Intercept’s trove has some kind of inside track on this one??????
Here we have a perfect example of Greenwald’s base.
I’d say the list is an example of the criminal things Israel has done.
But then there was the holocaust …
The outrage over Charlie Hebdo was not over freedom of speech per se, it was more over the freedom to offend, criticize and ridicule ideologies that promote the murder of human beings over cartoons.
When’s the last time somebody has been violently massacred for promoting BDS or antisemitism?
When’s the last time Muslims suffered genocide in France like the Jews have?
Only in the minds of Islamists and their apologists is the promotion of those who murder of cartoons (a la M’bala’s antisemitic propaganda or the antisemitic BDS movement) equivalent to drawing an imaginary warlord “prophet” who flew on magical horses.
The reason Holocaust denial is banned in France is because the Jews are a real people and their extermination was a real event. The reason the criticism of Islam is permitted
is because it’s based on fairy tales that are inherently violent towards non-Muslims, including and especially Jews.
There is no equivalency here. Banning speech that promotes violence and intolerance towards a real people would not be the same thing as banning speech that criticizes ideas or beliefs.
I personally don’t believe promoters of BDS should be banned, or that criticism of Israel is antisemitic, but make no mistake – BDS is rooted in antisemitism. Being anti-Israel is not bigotry or racism, but being anti-Zionism is.
Anyone who focuses their criticism solely on Israeli actions while ignoring (if not condoning or outright supporting) the far harsher, more frequent and vastly more rampant human rights violations and violence of the Islamists surrounding Israel, have ulterior motives.
So says the hasbarat.
Israel will suffer economic consequences for their illegal and immoral occupation of Palestine. If some Jews happen to suffer as well, BFD.
They’re just people too.
Israelis are experiencing nothing but a continuation of the vicious and violent Islamic antisemitism they’ve been suffering for centuries under Sharia law. The only difference is now they are not willing to be second-class Dhimmi slaves any longer, and Islamist supremacists are unwilling to accept it.
@Decatur204 – “Being anti-Israel is not bigotry or racism, but being anti-Zionism is.”
I am a Jew. I am even somewhat proud of it. I’m also opposed to the Zionist enterprise, which I view as oppressive and morally bankrupt. If you would care to explain to me how my anti-Zionism is rooted in bigotry and/or racism, I’d be interested to read it.
Punch Drunk.
It’s not just free speech. Rights for women and homosexuals are spit out with angry irony as a justification for war and hatred. Enlightenment is now a sales pitch for bigotry and bloodshed, sold as a lifestyle brand and fashion label. Freedoms won forged into prison bars.
Still, ‘Punching Up vs Punching Down’ must also be included in this free speech hypocrisy. Empty excuses for why my enemy’s speech is less worthy combined with a naked assertion that group dynamics transcends individual interaction. Is a six year old being molested by a minority supposed to feel less violated?
Somehow kicking drunk trailer park trash is ‘Punching Up’ as long as they want gun rights. This was never about power vs weakness, but a bullshit slogan to excuse the naked hypocrisy of my peer group.
Who is really going to cut the klan slack because they have a collective IQ of four and the recruiting power of a community college football program? Not me.
Too many see their job as PR representative for their peer group. Social signaling designed as shibboleth. You are who you blow. Seriously–if you can suck yourself off, it’s because you have no spine–not because you are the cock of the walk.
People will say anything to be loved. The best way to describe the world is not tribal–but lonely.
I simply write support. You’ve defined the reality most remarkably correctly. Frankly you’ve left no wriggle room. Decade after decade of destructive despicable hipocrisy has been left unchallenged.
Thank you for challenging it.
Whatever else equality is and should be, it shouldn’t carry a golf like handicap. One oughtn’t get points for religion, race or political will. But I believe that’s what happened here.
There is a gulf of mutual incomprehension between Americans and Europeans on the subject of ‘free speech’. I generally see no discernible benefit in correcting the misapprehensions of others, since at best, one mistaken belief will be replaced by another mistaken belief.
Americans, even relatively educated ones, have a libertarian streak and believe there are certain spheres which should be outside the purview of government. These areas include commerce, culture, health, safety and also speech. So for an American, free speech simply means free from government regulation. They accept that any individual who disagrees with what they say has the right to shoot them.
For Europeans, that any aspect of life should be outside the purview of government is inconceivable. They naturally accept that everything, including speech, should be regulated. So for Europeans, free speech simply means the right to engage in speech which is within the acceptable limits defined by regulations. They assume that if they remain within these acceptable limits, no individual who disagrees with them has the right to shoot them.
Hopefully, that clears up any misunderstandings.
I suppose it depends on what limits are “within the acceptable limits defined by regulations” …
By europeans, you mean just yourself, or all europeans except me?
This is what Israeli Jews do to Palestinian children:
http://www.addictinginfo.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/10455590_10202546325359158_5533792272859052332_n.jpg
Palestinians would do well to divorce themselves from terrorist Hamas – it would certainly increase their life expectancy.
You can’t look at a picture like that and tell me things went RIGHT. Armies are supposed to avoid that kind of casualty. That said, the picture is not an explanation – @DFG should post more about this case, what actually happened.
I did not say that the things were right. But as you are very well aware, there is no example of a war in the entire human history in which this kind of casualty was avoided 100%. So demanding it here is kind of silly. It’s like Greenwald babbling about one Muslim girl whose hijab was pulled from her head and making it sound like it’s the same sort of event as 9/11.
And note that – utterly unable to find an image *actually corresponding* to the ones I posted as proof that Muslim ideas about life and death are incompatible with civilization (a Muslim child happily playing with a chopped-off head, and a father smiling while holding his child in the presence of a beheaded crucified man) – DFG posted a dime-a-dozen image of a child probably killed because Palestinian terrorist scum used it as a human shield.
So on the one hand, we have smiling families playing soccer with human heads (and make no mistake about it : these are future refugees coming to America – these irreparably damaged people will be sleeping jihadi ticking time bombs for decades to come), and on the other, we have a victim of bombing.
Really, really weak.
“a dime-a-dozen image of a child probably killed because Palestinian terrorist scum used it as a human shield.”
You really are a despicable thing. Is there no bottom to your pit?
Aww, I’m sorry that the truth upsets you this much, dear.
Israel has declared enough “buffer zones” and opened fire on enough refugee camps that it is by no means sure that the child was used as a “human shield” – a term open to considerable interpretation anyway. The U.S. did the same thing in Vietnam — the thing is, we recognize now that the free-fire zones were a really shitty thing to do, and we also recognize we lost that war. Nonetheless, I’m not *that* clear on how often IDF forces actually open fire on honest to God civilians in the designated “buffer zones”, hence the use of seeing actual explanations of pictures like this.
Tell me this: do you actually believe that Israelis *deliberately killed* – so, in effect, murdered – this poor child?
The Israelis declared “buffer zones” over half of the Gaza Strip where anyone could get shelled. And “anyone” includes … this child. I don’t know exactly how they decided when to fire, but surely you remember the UNRWA facility getting hit, right?
Lola is Lenk; it’s time wasted debating someone who uses adjectives as nouns.
Louise has the personality of a damp towel and the intellect of a drug-addled Mekubbal.
I can be Susi if that would make you happy!
A worthless piece of anti-Semitic trash like nuf said would probably like the names “Adolf”, “Eva” or “Mufti Amin” best.
ah Louise, Louise.
That’s the second time you’ve lashed out at me.
Thank you; the affirmation helps during these dreary winter days.
Was it the reference to you having the personality of a damp towel or was it your drug-addled magic peddling?
LOL. Look at this worthless piece of Jew-hating trash, actually doing the counting.
Mission Accomplished.
Speaking of counting, do you know that more non-jews died in the Nazi death camps than jews?
But then you dismiss such information as denial of the holocaust and recommend that such denial should be outlawed.
“Speaking of counting,”
Perfect. I played you like a cheap fiddle.
Louise Cypher says:
Can someone tell me why she thinks these terrorists are the most powerful people in the world?
Are not all Gods invented?
Are not all prophets “so-called?
@Mike “Can someone tell me why she thinks these terrorists are the most powerful people in the world?”
LC is merely spewing hyperbole. But …. A case can be made, actually. The U.S. is arguably the most powerful nation in the world today, and terrorists presenting themselves as followers of Islam can make the U.S. do exactly what they want the U.S. to do.
When it comes to the American people, that isn’t surprising. History demonstrates the ease with which a populace can be riled and quelled with propaganda and distraction — bread and circuses as the Romans had it.
But for the people in charge to be so easily moved to do exactly what the terrorists want them to do . . . . That makes me wonder — and there is evidence to support this, at least in small instances — whether or not most of the terrorism today isn’t one big false flag to justify the actions of a collection of nations.
It’s funny because the same tribal thinking that makes Americans so susceptible to propaganda would, I would think, cause them to respond favorably if the U.S. government simply said, “Look, we’re not hypocrites. We need the oil, so we’re going into the region to get it. We have some partners — Saudi Arabia because they are reasonably stable and willing to work with us, and Israel because, well, we helped to create them and we’d look bad if we didn’t support them. Plus, you know, they have us by the short and curlies. So, yeah, we’re going in. Any questions? No? Great then. See you at the Super Bowl.”
“one big false flag ”
LOL. I knew it.
The ones who scream free speech are also the ones who believe in and support the Global War on [of] Terror.
The only problem with the global war on terror is that it has been prosecuted very, very half-heartedly, and huge numbers of murderous Muslim terrorist thugs are being treated with kid gloves.
You will see how it’s actually done when Trump enters WH.
If you truly believe that the so-called “War on Terror” is a war that anyone will ever win, then you are truly the type of person that deserves Donald Trump in the White House.
I didn’t say that. I stated that the prosecution of it leaves a lot to be desired.
You’ll see that much more can be done. A *huge price* can be extracted from terrorist communities, and you will see that they will then deal with their own terrorists *so fast* that your head will spin.
You obviously have no idea what causes “murderous terrorist thugs”.
” no idea what causes”
I do, dear. This: thereligionofpeace.com
“huge numbers of murderous Muslim terrorist thugs”
This makes me laugh. Clearly your math skills are as lacking as Lola’s logic skills.
Just in the last couple of days:
2016.01.07 (Ras, Libya) – A Shahid suicide bomber at an oil facility takes seven others with him.
2016.01.07 (Zliten, Libya) – A massive suicide truck bomb at a police training facility kills dozens of young recruits during their graduation ceremony.
2016.01.06 (Damascus, Syria) – Eight civilians bleed out following a Jaish al-Islam mortar hit on their neighborhood.
2016.01.05 (Borno, Nigeria) – A suicide bomber detonates at a market, slaughtering seven bystanders.
2016.01.04 (Raqqa, Syria) – A man is beheaded by a Sharia court on charges of ‘apostasy’.
2016.01.04 (Aden, Yemen) – A Sufi imam is assassinated by Sunni extremists while leaving his mosque.
Weekly Jihad Report Dec 26 – Jan 01
Jihad Attacks: 37
Allah Akbars*:11
Dead Bodies: 337
Critically Injured: 421
I’d say that is huge, dear. And it is spread so widely that there isn’t an avatar large enough to hold all the flags of nations blessed by Islamic terrorist atrocities.
You think 6 attacks is huge? Louise, this will be the least condescending and mean thing I say to you: I understand and appreciate your anger that these attacks are happening. One attack is one too many, that is certain. But to call this “huge” is an overreaction. The number of Islamic terrorists (or those claiming to represent some sort of Islamic belief) is incredibly small. And though the number is too large, it is not “huge.” Continuing to promote the idea that it is “huge” is a blunder on at least two counts. 1) It empowers the very people you wish to dis-empower. 2) It represents a complete misunderstanding of the reason why terrorists use terror as a weapon. It is the very fact that they are relatively few and relatively powerless that draws them to terror as a tactic.
Your hatred of terrorists is a reasonable, if passionate, response to the very real threat they pose. But don’t help them by overstating the case.
“6 attacks”
Um, you imbecile, that was in a mere *3 days*. Look up the 2015 stats on there.
I understood what you were saying. The attacks are awful, but they do not indicate a “huge” number of terrorists. Your world is too small if you think tens of thousands of terrorists = huge.
” Your world is too small if you think tens of thousands of terrorists = huge.”
LOL.
Funny that only ONE religion in some European nations is legally protected from ridicule, sarcasm or “free speech” hatred…
Unfortunately it has had and still has a lot of trouble from the bigotted of other religions, and unlike any other Faith – save perhaps India and Hinduism – its public persona has become intimately entwined with a highly controversial and generally unpleasant Nation State, confusing the issues further still.
Spare us your hasbara. Israel is the Jew which Europe has been dealing with for millennia. Jews have been xenophobic/misogynistic since they first started their tribe.
Jews were wearing a Yellow Star in Europe hundreds of years before Hitler revived the symbol. Just how poorly behaved towards others would one have to be to earn such a badge?
Look at Israel today and you have an answer.
There is not a single nation that protects Judaism from mockery anywhere in Europe, you dummy.
Had a knockdown ditch fight in college after I said, “what good is our flag if you can’t burn it.”
Haven’t changed my mind in 30 years.
Where I live there are people from all over the world. The two worst for handling criticism about their country from foreigners are the Americans and the French. Americans can sit together and argue tediously ad nauseum about GOP-Democrats-CNN-Fox-America’s Place in the Wider World and The Pros & Cons of Having A Half-Black Prez, but any outsider who tries to add even the smallest comment all too often gets verbally assaulted en masse by YOO-ESS-AY Star-Spangled-Bananas Patriotism. Never physically assaulted, though; Americans are absolute chicken shits in fear of the Law when it comes to fighting. The French just get upset about anything that doesn’t portray them as handsome rutting Alpha stags.
So why do we keep getting censored on here? Or is it just the Comments link not working? I am pretty damn sure I have seen my Comments load, then not seen them later. It would be nice for The Intercept to clearly state its Comments policy regarding:
– Foul & Inflammatory Language (which I use frequently!)
– Political Opinions
– Trolling
– Making Hyperlinks to any site, but particularly to YouTube
– The Number of Comments that can be made
– Whether Comments are checked and censored, and whether the approach varies from Journalist to Journalist
It would also be nice to have a permanent overview of the security risks of making Comments and Hyperlinks. Also it seems that old news articles and their comments are removed – what happens to them?
On the above, a large French minority have been utterly racist for a long time and are hateful towards the Muslims resident in France. The populations of Europe are aging and disinclined to tolerating anything that causes them the least concern, let alone coloured terrorists from a distrusted alternative religion. Where I live now in Asia, friends constantly ask me to research and recommend colleges for their kids, and I find it hard to do that now, knowing I could be sending their loved ones with their foreign faces into trouble and racism. They are such cheerful and optimistic people here and seem so at odds with the pathetic and distrustful misery and fearmongering of Europe right now.
Don’t be silly. Greenwald and his ghastly jihadi fellow traveler rag can be accused of a lot of things, but censoring people isn’t among them.
Just don’t mention people who regularly destroy Greenwald like John Schindler for example and you’ll be fine.
Glenn is on point. This comedian Dieudonné M’bala M’bala may be an asshole, but it is hypocritical to condone his jailing while defending inflammatory anti-Muslim comments. My stand is this: M’bala’s comments are fair game. Charlie Hebdo’s work is fair game. Caveat: as long as they are not threatening violence or inciting people to perpetrate violence. M’bala got convicted due to this comment on Facebook:
Really, that’s it!? He also said some tasteless stuff during comedy routines from over 3 years ago. Does that somehow make him “condone” terrorism? The term “condone” in this context is so broad and subjective as to be meaningless. And good luck proving that condoning something in turn incited further violence. The fact is, M’bala is just a run-of-the-mill asshole, kind of like Anjem Choudary in the UK, or ignorant morons in the U.S. who want to bomb a fictional country from the Disney movie Alladin. France is going way overboard with their new law. A couple of the cases prosecuted under its new rule were “A 20-year-old man jailed in Orleans for yelling ‘long live the Kalashnikov!’ at police in a shopping centre” and “A 22-year-old man who posted a video mocking murdered policemen was jailed for one year.” If enforced in the U.S., half the people on the Internet would be in jail.
France does not have the free speech protections that we have in the U.S. The Telegraph:
If we had such strict laws in the U.S., Professor Steven Salaita would be in prison. As much as I think Salaita is an utter dumbass for his Tweets, his being locked away for them would be outrageous.
M’Bala Information — http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11387219/Who-is-Dieudonne-the-French-comedian-on-trial-for-condoning-the-Charlie-Hebdo-attacks.html
Steven Salaita information —https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/06/15/university-of-illinois-censured-after-professor-loses-job-over-tweets-critical-of-israel/
Bombing of “Agrabah” — http://time.com/4155228/amiercans-bomb-aladdin-agrabah/
“If enforced in the U.S., half the people on the Internet would be in jail.”
If enforced in the US, half of the Internet would go silent which means more bandwidth for Netflix so we could watch ‘Making a Murderer’.
I feel like the only person in the world who hasn’t watched this yet.
I do not like even this get out of “inciting violence” or “hate speech” – I think you cannot censor any of it. The idea of inciting violence seems strange to me as I feel I tread a thin line on here sometimes when I suggest people should get off their arses and march on Washington and demand change. Unfortunately, struggle is by its nature often violent, and though peaceful approaches should be prefered, sometimes the nature of the opposition put before someone does not allow that to safely happen.
I have never been a fan of the likes of Gandhi being held up as the epitome of passive resistance – I feel he achieved very little that would not have happened anyway and that was not necessarily “for the best” anyhow, and ended up being assassinated by the people he thought he represented.
The “Right to Bear Arms” is ingrained in the American way of life – what it really means is open to interpretation, but for me it means “You Can Also Shoot Them If Needs Must”. Beared Arms are not wittling wood or aiding walking, they are indeed for shooting varmint of the long pig kind.
We have forgotten how to manage Life’s Trade Offs and allowed our smart-arses and leaders to fuck us while they feed us occasionally tasty scraps to keep us docile. It is pathetic and unlikely to last without some resort to bloody and brutal violence.
I love to think about how, in Greek mythology, when confronted by his enemies, Zeus, King of the Gods, did not bring Peace and Compromise and Understanding to the field of conflict; he brought Violence and Zeal and Hatred – the siblings of Nike, Victory.
When do I cross the line? Can I be arrested for thinking or saying or agreeing with that? It is a pretty damn clear message all the way from Greek Myths on how to address one’s adversaries.
Whether the action being censored is criminal in nature is critical. There is no hate speech exception to the 1st Amendment. On the other hand, specific threats and inciting people to conduct an illegal act can and should be a crime. For example, one can not post child pornography on Twitter and then claim they did so under the First Amendment. The real controversy is over what types of content social media should censor: for example, Islamic State propaganda and recruitment material.
Not really though. It would require that the speaker intends to incite a violation of the law that is both imminent and likely. More specifically:
Brandenburg v. Ohio, 395 U.S. 444, 447 (1969).
I will take my exit here at the gun rights part of the discussion.
That’s a good point, that Steven Salaita is not in prison. He is however, essentially in exile. That’s where we are in the Land o’ the Free–we just exile people we don’t like. That’s not freedom of speech, friends.
Dieudonné may be an asshole, but he’s a smart asshole. I think he made his point beautifully. Thanks for your help, France!
One of GG’s poorer articles, spoiled by needless exaggeration (his excellent point does not require hyperbole). Was weakened straight off by the overblown “led by the world’s most repressive tyrants”.
“Overblown” is his middle name, have you read him in his anti-communist period?
When merkel and the rest of the mass surveillance apologists set up their fake ‘March’ photo op it was as obvious then as it is now that they are repressive tyrants. These people have no problem violating basic human rights to remain in power and engage in self serving economic espionage.
@ Glenn
Lola or Louise or one of the two has one legitimate issue with this piece–you misspelled “Hebdo” as “Hedbo” twice in first two paragraphs. Not that typos detract from your argument in any way just that they should be corrected.
This reminds me of the Faurisson affair. See Chomsky: https://chomsky.info/19810228/
And of Voltaire’s quote (not listened to): I dissaprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Yet, he did not defend the right of the slaves to say they want freedom in the slave ship he financed.
http://histoirerevisitee.over-blog.com/2014/05/voltairiens-convaincus-voltaire-n-est-vraiment-pas-celui-que-vous-croyez.html
Does he have anything from Snowden to publish? His articles are getting crappier and crappier!
Belgium, France, Finland, South Africa, Netherlands…do not have to follow US laws with regards to free speech, nor do they have to follow US laws with regards to gun ownership. Finland has similar restrictions on free speech and has used those laws against its citizens. Yet, according to RSF Finland is the best place for journalists to express themselves.
There are absolutely no laws in France or Finland or South Africa…that prohibit expression of political views. Those laws clearly specify that hate speech and incitement to violence or hate are illegal. Maybe those countries are just making it hard for Nazis to recruit teenagers on TVs, radios, Internet. Or making hard for Jihadists to recruit school kids to go fight in Syria. But again, as a terrorist sympathizer, you would probably be outraged if a court punishes a mother who is convincing his 6 year old child to hate and blow up the infidels.
@ Lola
Does that mean nobody in other countries have to follow US laws that define “terrorism” one way or another?
NO!!!!!!!!!!!! And most countries do not. What is your point? Anybody told you all countries must define terrorism based on US laws? Or you just upset after I sent you the link from the United Nations that define “terrorist bombings” according to more than a 100 countries? You want to look stupid again?
@ Lola
https://theintercept.com/2016/01/06/one-map-that-explains-the-dangerous-saudi-iranian-conflict/?comments=1#comments
@ Lola
If it wasn’t in the above thread I didn’t see it. So yes I’d appreciate you linking it now if you are willing. And the point was you were going on and on about “the law” determining what is or is not terrorism, specifically US law. Further, that in the absence of international treaties signed by all nations which define same, which there aren’t, then your reliance on US law as defining what is or isn’t terrorism is misplaced except with respect to US citizens.
As far as you making me look stupid again, I let the other commenters decide who looks stupid and who doesn’t. The person that types “NO!!!!!!!!” and has a track record of non-sequitur bullshit and sophistry (you) or me.
Only thing I’ve been misinformed about in my recent interactions between us are in regards to recent developments (last 3-6 years) in Saudi Arabia concerning the ability of Saudi women to pursue an education. And I conceded the point. Although it was largely irrelevant to which country is more repressive generally or specifically with regards to women–Iran or Saudi Arabia.
I think most would agree it is the latter and not the former your sophistry notwithstanding.
Let me make you look stupid again as you wish:
This is my original comment:
“What is relevant is the LEGAL DEFINITION OF TERRORISM.
Read the French penal code and see what that definition is if you want to describe the attacks on their soil.
Read the US code and see what that definition is if you want to describe 9/11 or KKK activities.”
That means READ the French penal code that defines terrorism if you want to know whether the attacks in Paris are considered terrorism under the law (in FRANCE)
That means READ the US code that defines terrorism if you want to know whether the 9/11 attacks of KKK activities are considered terrorism under the law (in USA)
This is another statement from the same comment:
“For an international perspective read the UN Convention Against Terrorist Bombings signed by more than 150 countries and see what that definition is if you want to describe ISIL activities.”
That means READ the United Nations Convention Against Terrorist Bombings that defines what a terrorist bombing is in Article 2 if you want to have a legal definition of ISIL activities.
This is you comment:
“You don’t appear to be very smart or well informed. Did you eat a lot of paint chips as a kid or get dropped on your head. Or do you just like to demonstrate that you are a badly blinkered misinformed and propagandized idiot?”
https://theintercept.com/2016/01/06/the-deceptive-debate-over-what-causes-terrorism-against-the-west/?comments=1#comments
and this is the link to the United Nations Convention Against Terrorist Bombings
https://treaties.un.org/doc/db/Terrorism/english-18-9.pdf
@ Lola
You really are a dishonest sophist. The question, or debate, was whether there is a consistent internationally agreed upon definition of “terrorism”–there isn’t. There is an agreement on one specific type of “terrorism”–“terrorist bombings” at present agreed to by 168 countries–with almost all the countries stating “reservations”.
In fact, this has been a longstanding and primary point of disagreement in the international community. And it is precisely why the “Comprehensive Treaty On International Terrorism” is deadlocked.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprehensive_Convention_on_International_Terrorism
So again, I will let others determine who is the disingenuous sophist here me or you.
“You really are a dishonest sophist.”
No I am not. You are an ignorant and stupid individual who does not do proper research and more importantly who does not read properly what others write because you are too keen to call anybody who disagrees with your boss Greenwald a “moron”.
I only call you stupid and ignorant when I clearly prove that your statements are factually incorrect. When you prove that my statements are factually incorrect then by any means call me stupid and ignorant as well.
Yawwwwwwwwwwnnnnnnnn. I’ll leave it to others to decide based on the quality of our arguments and proof what is clear or not clear, and which arguments are sophistry as opposed to rational.
To be precise . . . and with respect to foreign nationals or legal residents on American soil, or any other individuals on foreign soil that America may claim a legal right to exercise jurisdiction over.
Show ONE statement in which I relied on US Laws to define what happened in France, in Argentina, or any other places as terrorism.
I clearly and specifically wrote to READ the French penal code to find out whether the attacks in Paris were terrorist acts.
If you are confused as of whether the bombing of a public square in Turkey by ISIS is a terrorist act, then you can read the UN Convention against terrorist bombings.
How do you feel when the one you called “know nothing moron” consistently proves your ignorance?
“As far as you making me look stupid again, I let the other commenters decide who looks stupid and who doesn’t.”
Most commentators here are Greenwald’s supporters and they are at least as stupid as you are. This is you after you described me as a “know nothing moron”
1)Women not allowed to have University Education is Saudi Arabia (False)
2)Women must cover their face in Saudi Arabia (False)
3)Women cannot hold public office in Saudi Arabia (False)
This is you again:
Laughable for me to call economics a science because a Nobel Prize winner believes it is not a science.
Yet another Nobel Prize winner, Paul Krugman, call it a science.
In Greenwald irrational world, those who pinpoint factually incorrect statements are the stupid ones. So, of course, in your narrow minded world it is completely irrelevant that I described Saudi Arabia as a tyranny. What is relevant is that I am stupid for exposing your inaccurate statements.
“they are at least as stupid as you are.”
LOL. Well played.
@ Lola
1) I conceded #1 and agreed I was misinformed in that respect.
2) Women must cover their faces in Saudi Arabia with limited exceptions.
Similarly, the idea that “secular law” does not require wearing of a face veil or niqab, is a misnomer as there is no “secular law” in Saudi Arabia. In fact, Saudi Arabia is an absolute monarchy and its legal system an enshrined in its Constitution is “Sharia Law” which is not secular.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niq%C4%81b
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_system_of_Saudi_Arabia
Plenty of other links available to support that proposition.
3) Women “holding” public office in Saudi Arabia is a very recent development. And is subject, not by elections, but the will of the Monarch who appointed women for the first time in 2015 to the Shura (as all persons are appointed at the will of the Monarch to the Shura).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia
Similarly, and only as of 2015, women were permitted to vote or run for office in “local counsel” elections.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/13/saudi-arabia-elects-up-to-17-female-councillors-in-historic-election
As far as “economics” as “science” goes, that you can’t comprehend the differences (and yes even Nobel Prize winners in that discipline, scientists, and philosophers understand the problem with classifying “economics” as “science”) between “hard sciences” and “economics” as “science” simply demonstrates your ignorance of the relevant issues.
So again, I’ll let the other commenters decide who eats a lot of paint chips or not, and who is a disingenuous sophist and who isn’t.
Again, and to be precise–the Monarch appoints people to the Shura (the nominal consultative “legislative” body) and as of 2015 women in Saudi Arabia were permitted the privilege of voting for “local counsel” positions which are “public offices”. Nobody votes for the “public offices” of the Shura, man or woman in Saudi Arabia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consultative_Assembly_of_Saudi_Arabia
“As far as “economics” as “science” goes, that you can’t comprehend the differences (and yes even Nobel Prize winners in that discipline, scientists, and philosophers understand the problem with classifying “economics” as “science”) between “hard sciences” and “economics” as “science” simply demonstrates your ignorance of the relevant issues.”
Not that a Nobel Prize winner is always correct, but I will definitely take Paul Krugman’s words over yours. Somebody I consistently exposed for his blatant inaccurate statements is definitely not in a position to call anybody an ignorant specially when the one he calls ignorant is just repeating a well known, Nobel Prize winning scholar.
@ Lola
On the issue of “economics” is “science” disagreement, none of the words were mine. They were all from others including a fellow Nobel winner. Well except for my noting that you are an idiot for not understanding the relevant debate.
I’m actually a big fan of Prof. Krugman’s work. And he’s very honest about the limitations of “economics” as “science” in the same way that many many others including other Nobel Prize winners have noted.
As far as what position you believe I’m in relative to you, I could personally care less. As far as anything else that’s gone on in these threads I’ll go ahead and let others decide who got the better of the exchange and what is/is not “blatantly inaccurate”.
The US culture is, or should be, that all men are endowed with their creator with certain inalienable rights. In other words, the right to free expression doesn’t exist because it is reflected in the US constitution, or international agreements, or other countries’ constitutions – it is right because it is right and whenever, wherever, however people fail to recognize that, they do injustice. And no country – including the US – currently does enough to see that right protected.
Thanks for a superb exposition, Glenn. The exercise of state power takes such evil postures; the citizen must be alert and courageous to fend it off.
We all know that you, and every single Greenwaldista on here, would, if faced with a choice between “evil state power” of France, USA, UK or indeed any other civilized nation, and a merry gang of brainwashed “poor oppressed brutalized marginalized” Muslims hell-bent on defending the honor of their so-called “prophet”, would not choose the latter.
So why not stop with this silly disingenuous nonsense you’re peddling?
@ Louise
Wooooooosh. Interested in sharing with all us Greenwaldistas a comprehensive list of all the ideas, words, sentences or images that must never be uttered or shown in public under threat of criminal prosecution? Oh yeah and then maybe give quick sentence or two on who you believe should have the authority to make those decisions on which ideas, words, sentences or images should be banned and criminally prosecuted.
Only two I think 99.9% of human beings would agree on are images of child pornography and incitement to imminent lawlessness (or panic without factual cause like shouting “fire” in a packed auditorium when there isn’t a fire). Short of that I’d be curious what others you think should never be uttered or shown in public.
Thanks in advance.
Could someone who can understand Moronese that this dummy Raymond Ray is using in his ejaculations on here please translate his drivel into simple English for me, and try to explain what the hell has his rambling piece of worthless trash post got to do with mine?
Please keep your sexual desires/frustrations off a public forum like this. Thank you.
That’s right, Louise, Glenn and his horde of minions are with the terrorists. This is shown clearly by his/their…what, exactly: Showing concern over the exploitation and politicization of horrific events by powerful, self-interested governments, or, for spotlighting the audacity required of many of these world leaders to stand hand in hand with each other in such enormous and public displays of sheer hypocrisy and phoniness? Really, what’s your beef?
Here you go:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2015/01/14/glenn_greenwald_versus_charlie_hebdo_on_the_wrong_side_of_freedom_125253.html
http://thedailybanter.com/2015/04/clueless-glenn-greenwald-slams-charlie-hebdo-for-muslim-bashing/
https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2015/12/17/nick-cohen-on-charlie-hebdo-cowardice-and-the-regressive-left/
On the entire phenomenon of the “regressive left” – morons who side with Islam, the most vile imperialist supremacist misogynist cult ever invented, while babbling about the big bad West supposedly crushing human rights and freedom:
http://www.standpointmag.co.uk/node/6361/full
And the best take:
http://quillette.com/2015/12/19/glenn-greenwald-fascisms-fellow-traveller/
That’s my beef.
Pretty fucking lame.
LC: The issue is not a matter of choosing where you live, but of making where you live a place of values worth defending. When these values are demean the place it is indefensible not to oppose them. This is not disingenuous nonsense!
Excellent article. Now, since nobody seems to point this out, let me make technical contribution.
The ‘hebdo’ in Charlie Hebdo is short for ‘hebdomadaire’ which translates to weekly’. The publication’s true name is CHARLIE and CHARLIE happens to be a weekly rag. I don’t believe that referring to it as ‘Hebdo’ is correct. We don’t call the New York Daily News paper ‘Daily’, right?
So you haven’t actually even seen ONE single cover of the magazine, right???
https://www.google.ca/search?q=charlie+hebdo&safe=off&espv=2&biw=1920&bih=955&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiO6Jfs25rKAhXDmh4KHfOdBi0Q_AUIBigB#imgrc=7kWSwr0q9Ok0RM%3A
You missed the point completely.
The main reason I donate a paltry $10 a month of my current disability stipend, which is less than minimum wage per hour, to the ACLU is because of Skokie. Because of both my hatred of Nazis/white supremacists, and my young awakening knowledge (not during Skokie, but after) that the only real measure of one’s value of defense of free speech is defending that which you disagree with most.
Of course as Glenn Greenwald notes, “free speech” is a sort of clay that can be molded in many ways. Politically advantageous for the popular. Politically also advantageous to crush it for the unpopular. Politically advantageous to do both at the same time and act as if they aren’t hypocrites.
Anyway, like the ACLU I’m very glad and it’s very good that you exist, Glenn Greenwald. The world is better for you, via articles like this. You’re rare and I thank you.
“relentless targeting of a marginalized minority”
Complete nonsense.
Greenwald is, again, peddling his favorite piece of drivel – that these brain-addled murderous Muslim terrorist thugs, who are *ready to die themselves in the process of murdering innocents* for their invented god and so-called “prophet”, are a “powerless, marginalized, brutalized minority”, while they are in fact the most powerful people in the world today.
Western soldiers don’t think this way, nor do western policemen, let alone western politicians; and, of course, people in the civilized world generally value life and prefer it to death, unlike these savages.
Read this for an excellent unmasking of the Greenwaldista way of “thinking”:
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/01/labours-tantrum-over-pat-mcfaddens-toddler-terrorist-question-was-very-revealing/
Name calling as a substitute for logical argument – you need to work on that, Louise. And your venom suggests that you support the state terror of the US and its vassals, which means you support torture, mass murder, the use of plague and famine as tools of policy, etc etc. Which – I hasten to add – makes you incomparably more loathsome than the people you condemn.
Read the link and you would understand the argument:
If the US did not support Israel, then Islamist terrorists will not attack US citizens
If the US/UK did not send troops in Iraq or Afghanistan then, terrorists will not attack US/British citizens
If Charlie did not mock Muslims, then it would not have been attacked
If you or Greenwald believe those arguments hold then logically you must support the following arguments:
If Argentinians Jews renounced Judaism they would not have been killed in 1994
If Yazidis/Shias renounced their beliefs and embraced ISIL Sunni Islam, then they would not be massacred
If Afghan kids refuse to learn anything else, but the Koran then the Taliban would not burn their schools or throw acid at them
Lola, your grasp of logic is superficial, at best.
Is it factually incorrect that if a Yazidi converts to Sunni Islam, embraced ISIL he/she will not be killed?
@Lola “Is it factually incorrect that if a Yazidi converts to Sunni Islam, embraced ISIL he/she will not be killed?”
Honestly, I don’t know. But the flaw in your logic stands apart from whether your statements are factual. Simply laying out a series of supposed cause and effect statements and then assigning them equivalency does not qualify as logic.
Your statement that believing your first three “If-Then” propositions means that people must logically accept your second three “If-Then” statements is logically incorrect because you imply a false equivalence in your “If” statements.
Your first three “Ifs” rest on secular choices while your second three “Ifs” rest on religious beliefs. That substantive difference is enough to invalidate your logic or, rather, constitutes an illogical equivalency.
However, your statements are very revealing and contain the same flawed thinking that prohibits you and people like you from understanding how someone can understand and point out a chain of causes and their effects without condoning the caused actions.
I can’t tell if the problem is that you are fairly intelligent but woefully under-educated, or if you are educated but lack the intelligence to make use of your education. Perhaps its neither. Perhaps you simply have a very limited capacity to consider anything at odds with your dearly held belief system. Whatever the cause, the effect is that your comments here have little value to them.
I wouldn’t be so harsh, but everything I’ve ever seen you post demonstrates that a) you have no desire to engage in a dialogue that might result in you learning something new, especially if it is at odds with what you already believe to be true, and b) your only real interest here is to deride the author of the article and anyone who agrees with what he wrote. Basically, you want to engage in the lowest form of argument to vent your spleen, so I thought I would come down to your level and provide you with some satisfaction.
You may now proceed to call me names and otherwise demonstrate your lack of self control.
You say:
“Your first three “Ifs” rest on secular choices”
One of those was:
“If Charlie did not mock Muslims, then it would not have been attacked”
How is that – when we all know for a fact that murderous Muslim terrorist thugs who massacred CH people explicitly stated that they are doing it for their “so-called prophet” – a “secular choice” not “resting on religious beliefs”, you *utter* imbecile?
@Louise Cypher
““If Charlie did not mock Muslims, then it would not have been attacked”
How is that – when we all know for a fact that murderous Muslim terrorist thugs who massacred CH people explicitly stated that they are doing it for their “so-called prophet” – a “secular choice” not “resting on religious beliefs”, you *utter* imbecile?”
Your pique amuses me, so I’ll answer your question: The fact that you used a word that is the name of a religion in your premise and the fact that the *effect* (or Then statement) is a religious response do nothing to make the If statement “rest on secular choices” as I claimed.
Your “If” was “If Charlie did not mock Muslims.” The choice, then, was Charlie’s — not a religious institution — and what they chose to do “mock” is also not a religious activity. Thus, this If statement is substantively different from the ones you say are equivalent where your Ifs refer to people giving up or otherwise repudiating their religious beliefs.
Not being an imbecile yourself, I’m sure you see the problem. Right?
“Your “If” was “If Charlie did not mock Muslims.”
It wasn’t mine, you illiterate imbecile, it was Lola’s.
“and what they chose to do “mock” is also not a religious activity.”
You are truly a moron.
It was not about “mocking” at all. The issue is the very act of depiction.
CH’s choice was *eminently religious* – all that they needed to escape death was to subjugate themselves to the *religious* internal Muslim blasphemy code regarding the depiction of their so-called “prophet”, so in essence to become, as far as this action of depicting Mohammed is concerned, Muslims. That is *precisely* what they refused to do, and for what they were butchered.
What these Muslims want – when they demand that all people, including non-Muslims, refrain from depicting their so-called “prophet” – is an absolute *religious* subjugation. It’s not about mocking a Murtaza or a Mehdi, for example, however stupid and mock-worthy those individual Muslims may be. It’s about their “prophet”.
Honestly, you are embarrassing yourself, sweetie. Stop digging.
@Louise Cypher
“It wasn’t mine, you illiterate imbecile, it was Lola’s.”
My apologies. It wasn’t my illiteracy that was the problem in this case; it’s just that so far as I can tell, you are one and the same. Same anger. Same denigrating tone. Same flawed thinking. To wit:
“CH’s choice was *eminently religious* – all that they needed to escape death was to subjugate themselves to the *religious* internal Muslim blasphemy code”
Not at all. CH does not subscribe to Islam. There was no question of “submission” at all because there was no compulsion to submit. That they chose to knowingly flout someone else’s religion — which they are free to do — and provoked and admittedly heinous but somewhat predictable response — does not make their act religious. And that is true no matter how much you wish it were otherwise.
Like your ideological and posting twin, Lola, you let your passion override your ability to think. And this is clearly painful to you since you pride yourself on your intelligence. Therefore, I have no hope that you will recognize your own failure. Instead, I’m sure you’ll continue to insist that I am wrong and no doubt will do so in as angry and condescending manner as possible. You are, at least, predictable.
“there was no compulsion to submit”
Jesus, how stupid can you be? Muslims sentenced them to death because they did not submit to Muslim blasphemy code, and you claim there was no compulsion to their choice?
Not to mention that you are now trying to silently change the terms – I didn’t say that their “act” was religious (it was the very opposite, a bold affirmation of irreligious pride: essentially it was a refusal to submit to Islam) but that the *choice* they were forced to make by these murderous Muslim terrorist thugs was *a religious choice* because it was based on religious rules – just like Christians or others who come under Islamic State rule must make a choice to either convert, or submit to Muslim rule and become dhimmis, or leave (Yazidis and others considered “not of the book” can’t even make that choice – they are in the position of Jews under Nazis, a literally non-legal thing without any rights, to be enslaved or eradicated).
@Louise Cypher
“Not to mention that you are now trying to silently change the terms – I didn’t say that their “act” was religious (it was the very opposite, a bold affirmation of irreligious pride: essentially it was a refusal to submit to Islam) but that the *choice* they were forced to make by these murderous Muslim terrorist thugs was *a religious choice* because it was based on religious rules”
It wasn’t my intention to “silently change the terms.” I’m happy to edit for your satisfaction and for clarity:
“CH does not subscribe to Islam. There was no question of “submission” at all because there was no compulsion to submit. That they chose to knowingly flout someone else’s religion — which they are free to do — and provoked and admittedly heinous but somewhat predictable response — does not make their *choice* religious.”
And I stand by that.
Here’s a hypothetical: I am not Jewish. There is no religious compulsion on me to eat kosher foods. I choose to eat something that is not kosher. This is not a religious choice. I’ve chosen the food for any number of reasons, but none are religious. Let’s say you happen to be some crazed Jewish extremist who believes that anyone who doesn’t eat kosher foods should be killed. Your choice to kill me may be religiously motivated, but that does not make my choice religious in any way. My choice isn’t about you even if I know you are out there and might kill me. My choice might be despite you, but it isn’t about you and it certainly isn’t a religious choice.
Louise: “Muslims sentenced them to death because they did not submit to Muslim blasphemy code, and you claim there was no compulsion to their choice?”
Correct. Just because your religion causes you to believe that I *must* do something, that doesn’t mean my choice to do otherwise is compelled by religion. My choice is only compelled by religion if it is MY religion. That is the only sense in which it is meaningful to call a choice “religious.”
So, yeah, I stand by what I said.
“Louise: “Muslims sentenced them to death because they did not submit to Muslim blasphemy code, and you claim there was no compulsion to their choice?”
Correct. ”
Wow. OK, there really is no need to proceed with this.
Louise, let me ask you an honest question: If I threaten you, does that compel you to do what I tell you to do or to refrain from doing what I tell you not to do?
You seem to think that someone threatening you creates a compulsion to behave as they tell you to. It does not. That is not the same as saying there aren’t consequences, though. I think we’re having a problem with semantics. We seem to disagree on what compulsion means.
Webster’s says,
Compulsion
“:a very strong desire to do something
: the act of using force or pressure to make someone do something
: the state of being forced to do something”
By this definition, it is clear that the terrorists wanted to compel CH NOT to publish the drawings. And that desire was because of their religion. I think we agree about that.
But what CH did was not a desire for their own religious statement. Drawing Mohammad was not an expression of *their* religion. And they did not publish the drawings due to force — which would have been a choice that was compelled by force. They did what they did *despite* the threats. So they weren’t compelled by religion. They did what they did despite someone else’s religious disapproval.
I do not call people names unless I can prove they are what they are. Example: If you state that “women are not allowed to get an education in Saudi Arabia” then I would reply you are an ignorant because that is false.
“Your first three “Ifs” rest on secular choices while your second three “Ifs” rest on religious beliefs. That substantive difference is enough to invalidate your logic or, rather, constitutes an illogical equivalency.”
You need to clarify your point in order to make it challenging. When you say “choices” are you referring to ISIL Al Qaeda that certainly makes a religious choice or the other entities, Charlie or the Afghan kids who did not make a religious choice?
Al Qaeda makes a religious choice. It has a RELIGIOUS belief that mocking their prophet should result in death. Therefore, they attacked and killed the French journalists. The argument of Al Qaeda and many Muslims is simple: if you do not mock their prophet then they will not hurt you.
Taliban makes a religious choice. It has a RELIGIOUS belief that studying Voltaire, Adam Smith…is against their religion and should be severely punished. Those who decide to follow their guidance of studying only the Koran are not hurt.
If you are attempting to place a secular motive on those who attack the US/UK because those countries attacked Iraq and Afghanistan, then your argument is extremely weak because those attackers are the same ones who have consistently repeated their RELIGIOUS choices that consist of killing whoever mocks their prophet.
I can adjust my statements to accommodate your argument, by considering the terrorists as secular actors:
If the US/UK do not support Israel, do not attack any Muslim countries, then Islamist terrorists would not bring violence against their citizens.
However, there is a problem: those same Islamist terrorists attacked and killed any citizens in any country who are Jews.
So, if you are stating we must stop the US/UK actions because those actions cause them to kill US/UK citizens. Then what do we do about US/UK or Argentinian citizens who are Jews after we stop those actions? What do we do about a Japanese or Russian citizen who decides to mock their prophet?
@Lola
You seem to really be trying to understand what I was saying, so I’ll answer without condescension and snark.
Your original argument was:
“If the US did not support Israel, then Islamist terrorists will not attack US citizens
If the US/UK did not send troops in Iraq or Afghanistan then, terrorists will not attack US/British citizens
If Charlie did not mock Muslims, then it would not have been attacked
If you or Greenwald believe those arguments hold then logically you must support the following arguments:
If Argentinians Jews renounced Judaism they would not have been killed in 1994
If Yazidis/Shias renounced their beliefs and embraced ISIL Sunni Islam, then they would not be massacred
If Afghan kids refuse to learn anything else, but the Koran then the Taliban would not burn their schools or throw acid at them”
You equated the first three If-Then pairs with the second three If-Then pairs when you said, and I’m paraphrasing, ‘If you believe the first three statements then to be logically consistent, you must believe the next three statements.’
The reason that logic is flawed can most easily be seen by summarizing your statements with variables. For simplicity, I’m going to set aside small arguments about whether terrorism in these cases are always religiously motivated. Let’s assume for the sake of simplicity that they are (and clearly they often are in this context).
Your first three statements were all pretty much of the same formula:
If A, Then B
Where
A = Secular, Public Western Action (or Cause)
B = Religious, Terrorist Response (or Effect)
For the next three statements to be analogous and create the logical need for acceptance, they would have to follow that formula: If A, Then B.
But they don’t.
The second three statements follow this formula:
If C, Then B
Where
C = Religious, Personal Group Action (or Cause)
B = Religious, Terrorist Response (or Effect)
You keep arguing that your logic is sound because the Effect (or Then statement) is essentially the same. But the logic breaks down because the Cause (or If statement) is substantively different. All of it could be factually correct, but it still wouldn’t create a logically analogous argument. It’s not enough to have the form of the argument reproduced (which you did, in my opinion); the substance of the analogy has to be sound as well and the reason for that, as far as I can see, is because some responses are widely considered reasonable (though not necessarily moral or “good”) and others are clearly unreasonable.
And you should want to accept that last part because your ultimate point rests on that very truth. It is reasonable to expect someone to respond to violence with violence (the first three statements), but it is not reasonable to respond to individual religious beliefs with violence against those people strictly because they believe differently from you. And that is really the heart of your argument and anger regarding terrorists who do just that.
Does that make sense? I’m genuinely asking that. And if I’m wrong about my rules of logic, then I urge you or someone else to please point it out. I admit the possibility, but I think I’ve got this right.
“A = Secular, Public Western Action (or Cause)”
Again, you dummy, there was nothing “secular” about CH’s choice whether to depict the so-called “prophet” even after they were warned by Muslims not to do it.
It was *a religious choice* imposed on them by powerful people who didn’t mind dying themselves in the process of murdering them in the defense of their “prophet”.
It is exactly the same as Islamic State coming to Shias and others and demanding from them to either respect religion of Islam as construed by them or die.
CH, in that religious choice, proudly chose irreligious consistency and died for it.
I explain this elsewhere, but for your own ease in locating it, I’ll repeat it.
Just because you choose to act against me based on your religious beliefs, that does not make my choice to act in a way you find offensive “religious.” It just doesn’t. For my choices/actions to be considered religious, they must be motivated by my religion. The fact that someone in the situation is acting for religious reasons doesn’t not make everyone in the situation acting for religious reasons. If you don’t understand that, there’s not much more I can do for you.
Thank you for the argument though.
“The reason that logic is flawed can most easily be seen by summarizing your statements with variables.”
It is not flawed because it is the same actor, the Islamist terrorists, telling everybody what to do and what not to do. If you believe it is completely, 100% flawed you would still have to accept the cause/effect argument presented by Greenwald:
Islamist terrorists are attacking US citizens because of our policies in the Middle East then if
the US stops its policies in the Middle East then Islamist terrorist will not attack US citizens.
That is a very simple logical argument. Starting from that argument how would you solve those situations:
Islamists terrorists are killing Yazidis because they do not believe in Sunni Islam
Islamists terrorists are killing Shias Muslims because they do not believe in Sunni Islam
Islamist terrorists are killing Jews because they are Jews
These Islamists terrorists do not care whether those Yazidis, Shias, Jews are Iraqis, British, US or Argentine citizens.
If Yazidis, Shia Muslims or Jews want to stop Islamist terrorists who want to kill them they can either bomb those terrorists or do what those terrorists want. Greenwald and his supporters say we should not bomb Muslims. So, according to that basic logic he initially presented, Yazidis, Shia Muslims or Jews must do what Islamist terrorists request to stay alive. In those cases they cannot change policies, they would have to convert and accept the Islamists’ interpretation of Islam.
How stupid would one need to be to believe you give 2 flying Fs about the Yazidis? You probably would’ve never even heard of the Yazidis if not for your interest in advancing an imperialist project. It’s the oldest trick in the book: Feign concern for some socially progressive cause or some humanitarian concern as a pretext for interventionism and imperialism. It’s transparent. You’re not talking to idiots. Get it?
Iraq was invaded by neocons in 2003 with a purely imperialist objective (regime change), destroyed any political stability the country might have had, and 12 years later the Yazidis are fucked as a result. Now you’re trying to sell the BS that more imperialism is the solution. GTFOH.
Outside of some PR stunts, who is lifting a finger or has any real interest in helping the Yazidis?
You know how I know the Russians are not that good at propaganda? Because they don’t say stuff like “we’re trying to help the Yazidis.” Or maybe they realize it’s laughable.
“as a substitute”
Nonsense. I am insulting morons like you *in addition* to dismantling your “arguments”.
Louise baby, if all you can find to comment about is “hedbo” instead of “hebdo”, you obviously do not have much of a brain. You go on to fantasise about Glenn’s orgasm, which proves you clearly have a huge sexual chip on your shoulder, you probably need a good & thorough f*ck, which you obviously have not had for a long time, if ever.
Finally, your bigotry extends to calling Glenn an Islamophile, as if that is a tar on his reputation. You need to think that one through a bit more. But that is probably asking too much from a chicken-brained human being. Poor thing.
Lol. Spoken like a true Greenwald groupie. Well done.
I don’t quite agree with Louise either but you made an incredibly sexist comment
Just like those “poor marginalized brutalized” Muslim “refugees” in Germany, though, “Paranam Kid ” is to be excused – his heart is in the right place, and anyway I had it coming.
It needs to be noted that ‘Louise’ isn’t a female.
@Paranam Kid – “you probably need a good & thorough f*ck, which you obviously have not had for a long time, if ever”
That sort of aggressive, mindless misogyny causes your criticism of the “bigotry” of others to ring fairly hollow.
@ Panama
Not to pile on but I don’t think the best way to highlight irrational bigotry is to engage in irrational misogyny.
should be easy for you as you are irrational by nature.
@ Lola
Oh ouch, you really cut me to the quick with that one. I might have to roll into the fetal position on the ground and contemplate how The Intercept’s newest anonymous sophist put me in my place. Or not.
I agree with every single word written in this article. You focused on the most important point related to freedom to speak. France pretends to teach us what it is but they forget that the true freedom has to respect its own limit. All the western people should remember that untill the end of WW I Muslims and Jewish used to live in peace in the land of Palestine. When France and The UK occupied The Middle-East a huge number of troubles begun to create disorder in that area.
FANTASTIC article! A pleasure to read.
The reality: Money talks very loudly and buys PR.
Superb article, every word true.
France has been suppressing its Arab minority for decades and the treatment meted out to climate activists last year at the Paris conference was terrible, even in the media ignored it for the most part.
Very good. Another example from 2015: the crackdown on dissenting free speech during the recent climate summit in Paris was barely noted and almost never criticized in British or American media.
“The enemy is the gramophone mind, whether or not one agrees with the record that is being played at the moment.”
The ruling clan does not believe in “free speech”. They consent only to the “accepted free speech”.
I concurred then and I concur now – this entire charade of “free speech”, including the aftermath of the Hebdo episode, was not about “free speech”.
Whenever the ruling clan needs to define the constraints of “accepted”, the masses will be reminded that “fear” is just around the corner.
The original article Glenn published here after the Hebdo attacks were full of comments suggesting that what Hebdo did was fine, and that it was done to show & make a point about freedom of expression/speech.
Now, where are you all? Are you admitting that you were wrong when you all suggested that Hebdo was acting with sincere intentions?
Very few people, myself included, wrote in the comments section (as did Glenn in his article) our opinion that the Free Speech clause was nothing but a convenient “cover” to go rallying in defiance against Muslims. All 3 million people in their Anti-Muslim Islamaphobic borderline-hate-rally were using the concept of Free Speech as a disguise to cover for their bigotry and Islamaphobia.
Now that the proof has come in droves, where are all those people? I remember enormous numbers of comments to the right of myself and Glenn. Has the evidence come in and you’ve changed your mind or are you still not convinced that the post-Hebdo crusades were almost exclusively about hating on Muslims?
Also, I’d like to remind people that it’s not the satire Muslims were upset about, it was the drawing of the prophet, that is it. Muslims and Islam are insulted every single day, nobody protests over it. They have this one exception about the drawing of the prophet since it has been instilled in them throughout their lives via religious indoctrination – any drawing of the prophet is absolutely the worst thing anyone can do, and the Hebdo cartoonists knew this and did this knowingly, which makes it all the more hideous. Of the 1.7B Muslims (and as terrible as it was) it was only 2 who acted out, not 1.7B of them. That is literally 1 in 1 billion. Perspective, please.
Finally, the comparisons of this being about “satire” and Muslims not being able to take criticism or ridicule is just wrong. Also, the comparisons with Christianity is also a complete lie, since Christians were never burdened with this “no drawing of the prophet” clause in their religion. But people still try to write this off as Muslims not being able to take an insult through satire, and how Muslims are irredeemable because Christians don’t and would never act this way etc. Yes, Christians won’t act this way since they wren’t brainwashed with the same rule in their religion. These comparisons are a complete and utter simplification designed to subvert what’s at the heart of the matter, it’s a deceitful trick and a cowardly lie.
This is what we get when the vast majority of media outlets are owned and managed and controlled by those of the Jewish faith. They use this power to affect the way the world views those of the Islamic faith. That is what they do.
If you think it is only the Jews, you are kidding yourself. Here in Washington DC there was a large public outcry a few years back about an artist’s particular portrayal of Christ. And if you think it’s different where you live, call up the local media and invite them to attend a Bible burning, and see what kind of response you get.
To most people of limited perspective, freedom of expression is like art: they know it when they see it, which is to say, it exists to the extent that it is agreeable to them. But otherwise it is either hate speech or smut, as the case may be.
His point was that the overwhelming media ownership in the West is Zionist controlled.
They are the ones who reported the Christian outcry,and don’t report the Muslims side at all,as in their reasons for their anger at US and the West,which if one examined neutrally,would be highly critical of the West.But hey,its good to be the king!
I love the Jews & the Muslims. They are my brothers and Sisters. It warms my heart when I see a Jewish guy/girl stand up for Muslims, and also when I see a Muslim guy/girl stand up for the Jews.
I understand having Media consolidated in the hands of a few (Rupert Murdoch comes to mind) is never a good thing. 6 companies controlling almost all of US media is not healthy at all.
Here in Australia, it was pretty much Murdoch channels & government channels, and that was it until recently. Yet you still see Murdoch’s work all over the TV & papers here & people are always voting against their own interests without even realizing it.
I can’t help but notice that the wight-wing in USA starting going much further to the right, right after the inception of Fox News in 1996.
“I love the Jews & the Muslims. They are my brothers and Sisters. It warms my heart when I see a Jewish guy/girl stand up for Muslims, and also when I see a Muslim guy/girl stand up for the Jews.”
LOL. Vomit-inducing.
Why is it vomit inducing… I don’t like right-wingers on either side, sure, but you need to remember many of them are also brainwashed by the media and one-sided bias.
“Jews” like Rupert Murdoch?
^ Typical Interceptista – it’s always Jews Jews Jews.
“Also, I’d like to remind people that it’s not the satire Muslims were upset about, it was the drawing of the prophet, that is it.”
No. As a Muslim I’d disagree with you here. Compare the very first time that South Park drew Muhammad (PBUH) in the pre-9/11 episode where every religious leader is part of a superhero team. He appeared for extended periods of time, uncensored, in a non-insulting way, and no one at the time cared, at ALL.
People only started caring about depictions of Muhammad (PBUH) when it began being done in an insulting manner, equating the prophet with terrorism or the like. That’s when Muslims (and to be fair, a sizable amount of Non-Muslims) began getting really offended at any and all depictions of the Prophet.
It seems to me to be less about the depiction itself, and more about the nature of the depiction.
“any drawing of the prophet is absolutely the worst thing anyone can do”
The WORST thing anyone can do?? Dude, the injunction against drawing prophets isn’t even /Quranic/. For years after his ministry, people drew him with absolutely no ramifications. Even after Muslims adopted the idea that drawing him was a bad idea, they found it acceptable so long as he was veiled or covered in holy fire. Surah 2 makes it pretty clear that HYPOCRISY is the worst sin in Islam. The act of drawing the prophet isn’t even mentioned in the Quran, where all the most important rules are written.
” (and to be fair, a sizable amount of Non-Muslims) began getting really offended at any and all depictions of the Prophet.”
Only morons – and Muslims like you, who are mentally still somewhere in toddler age – could be offended by a depiction of that vile murderous piece of trash.
And your stupid beliefs are all well and good until you start expecting others to follow them; but make no mistake about it, dear – we will *not* subjugate to your silly internal Muslim blasphemy code regarding the depiction of your so-called prophet.
So here’s an image of that brain-addled warlord who invented a death cult to help him with his military conquests:
*`O:-D
And yes, that is a bomb in his turban.
Who’s behaving like a spoiled juvenile brat here? Perhaps it’s nap time for you, Louise.
Typical for a Greenwaldista – no ability to make a pertinent counter-argument.
I heard the Israelis are so good they hide one under Yahoos yarmulke.
You mustn’t trust everything you hear at your local hate-preaching mosque, sweetie.
Let me clarify, if they just draw the prophet, it isn’t as bad as if they draw and humiliate, of course! If they just humiliate other parts of the religion, that’s also not a problem. if they humiliate the prophet without drawing him, that’s also not a problem (in that, you won’t get death threats).
And yes, the no drawing rules aren’t in the koran, but that is irrelevant. They were still brought up to care about this issue in the preaching and indoctrination they received in current times. Why do you think they make death threats otherwise?
Also, context is important… when the west is killing so many muslims, other muslims see it as an attack against their religion & their people, an also their self identity. Of course a small portion of those people are going to go on the offensive, it’s not all muslims doing it, it’s (in hedbo case) two people out of 1.7 billion.
Isis is 20k/30k people out of 1.7billion, you know what that is as a percentage? it’s literally 1% of 1% of 2%, like 0.0002%
Hmm, indeed. Just here to say several months ago in Haaretz a report shared that the Knesset had or was going to determine that boycotting any industry /corporate goods would be prosucutable there. And so on and soforth with that.
Further, BDS by the EU was a page turner too in the news there. So reading here of the French, Tee Shirt convicted souls seems relevant to my thoughts too, now you’ve mentioned.
Poland has just today/yesterday popped into frame by taking over staff control and so programme range of their TV media. I.e. It’s to be government run and at the chosen minister’s digression.
As for the UK, FOI is up for grabs the last I heard/read. At a cost the option for pulling info is available to the public should the PM and ministers with the hand picked review board get their way. Needless to say a vast majority of your regular folk would be inable to afford, nor too a delving journalist.
Wasn’t reading the Intercept a year ago but yes, the Charles Hebdo attacks have evoked free speech concerns. I read you here with curiosity of the argument that to speak was to so embrace that belief etc etc. put forth in France. I’ll now go back to the article and try and digest this again. It’s subtle. I.e. A mind could believe this as incontrovertible truism when as you say, Voltaire said quite plainly and originally a different thing.
It’s all very poor in the West at the while…
I’ve always felt from the beginning that the Charlie Hebdo attacks against Islam was just a ‘free-speech’ front for Zionist-propagated hatred of Muslims.
I don’t think the Charlie Hebdo writers can be accused of sympathy towards any religion.
How many times have they ridiculed Jews?
Or Christians?
I think they did that just last week (http://i.f1g.fr/media/figaro/805x453_crop/2016/01/04/XVMdc3cf178-b2ce-11e5-b5b5-ccb2324453c0.jpg).
Don’t expect dumb Greenwaldistas to be swayed by facts.
Hi Louise :) Please refrain from associating me with your toxic way of debating stuff.
Sadly, you have no control over that on here.
Lousie Cypher is well-known for her provocative distractions in the comments section the UK’s Independent.
Not satisfied with leaving her crude ‘Corbynista’ comments in that newspaper, it appears she has now started a second shift with ‘Greenwaldista’ comments on The Intercept.
The childish ‘ista’ suffix to the names of those she disagrees with tells us everything we need to know about her.
Don’t rise to the bait, as it only serves to encourage her. She has no interest in free speech whatsoever.
LOL. You really are embarrassing yourself here, you dummy. They pummel Christianity all the time.
Many, many times.
Hiding behind the Freedom of Speech clause was indeed a very convenient way to wrap their hate-speech up inside a seemingly noble cause in order to make it palatable to the mindless masses who fell for it hook, line and sinker.
“Oh no, they were just making a point about Freedom of Speech, yeah. That’s why they were out protesting in the millions.”
Right, when you can exercise the inner bigot while hiding behind a noble clause in order to deflect the true intentions of the Islamaphobic crusade, it is indeed very convenient.
“Islamaphobic ”
LOL. So typical, an *absolute* Islamophiliac moron babbling about “free speech” who can’t even spell his or her favorite invented word correctly.
There is nothing bigoted about stating that Islam is a vile barbarian murderous misogynist medieval death cult, invented by a brain-addled warlord – their so-called “prophet” – who needed a new religion to help him in his conquests, and that it is indeed the greatest threat to civilization today.
It is a simple statement of fact. How often do you see non-Muslims engaged in this sort of cultural activities?
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CUNX-S2VAAAhyO-.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CUNYFPQVAAAfslP.jpg
You should NOT post graphic images without a warning that some people might find them disturbing you fucking moron.
Anyway, I can play that game too, I can post pictures of children with their heads blown off by American and Israeli bombs. Going to war and killing people is after all one of the most favourite “cultural activities” of people in the West.
Mutilating the bodies of enemies and keeping them as a trophy seems to be something Westerners have been interested in since the Second World War at least – Life magazine even featured an American woman writing a letter to her boyfriend thanking him for sending her a Japanese skull (please note, some viewers might find this image distrubing):
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b5/LIFE_May_1944_Jap_Skull.jpg
The rest of your post, much like all of your posts, are too stupid to even bother rebutting, this has been done ad nauseam over the Internet before, and I have no interest in wasting time doing it again.
PS, Before you start, I am not a “fanboy” of Glenn, I think the majority of what he writes is great but I do occasionally disagree with what he says and even argued with him and was very disappointed at his “disingenuous” insult of another poster and not apologising to her, but hey, no one is perfect, so save your strawman for someone else.
I find you disturbing. You should not post at all without a warning.
There’s nothing “moronic” about assuming the reader can take a dose of reality. And there’s some difference between some bleached skull resulting from acts of war within the usual scope of war, and freshly killed heads from a freshly decapitated probably civilian who likely broke one of ISIS’ stupid rules. Technically yes, even the Jap skull was a Geneva violation, and not to be commended, but there’s a difference between the violations against the dead and the violations against the helpless living.
Stop being such a dumb fuck. People are different, and some people find graphic images of dead bodies very disturbing. Therefore, you should not post such images without first giving people a warning.
And it seems the rest of my post went right over your head because you came out with some banal irrelevant response.
I just had a kind of Ace Ventura – Einhorn – is – Finkel moment:
I’ve been wondering who Mussolini could be? Is Brad Pitt a prolific, engaging, and thoughtful satirist? Who could it be?
I believe Mussolini just came out of character; I’ve never known dear leader to go hunting fabled creatures of free speech or folklore. So, Greenwald is Mussolini, Mussolini is Greenwald… OH MY GOD!
If it makes you feel better, I search high and low for anything I consider to be a potential threat.
Europe’s vision of what constitutes free speech is very different from the American’s. While it cannot be disputed that a double-standard is in place, there are also cultural reasons which explain the oddities you describe.
In particular, contrary to the United States (unless I’m wrong about this), a lot of restrictions are placed on free speech by law in France (anti-semitism is one of those restrictions). I’m not denying that we need reform over this, but I wanted to point out that the issue is deeper and more complex than a few hypocrites defending selective freedom of speech.
I agree: the issue is more complex and the assumption that “free speech” means anybody can say anything is very infantile and very “american”.
Free speech in America does not mean that anybody can say anything. But it certainly does mean that if you satirize one religion, then yo can satirize them all.
Nobody said that it is only that. In fact, the implication is that it is far more than that.
Cultural reasons as explanation cannot then be be used as justification. Stoning women to death over possible sexual matters may be very “cultural” in a few places, but that is no justification. Carrying free speech to an extreme in one instance while denying it completely in another is just as wrong. The laws that enforce the latter are simply wrong.
> Nobody said that it is only that.
I felt that it was heavily implied by Glenn Greenwald’s conclusion:
> That’s because free speech was their cynical weapon, not their actual belief.
> Cultural reasons as explanation cannot then be be used as justification.
You’re putting words in my mouth. All I stated was that cultural reasons made the issue more complex than the way they are presented in the article in my opinion.
At no point did I present them as a justification (nor did I imply that our way of doing things is in any way justified), which makes your “stoning women” example quite unnecessary.
Just to underline your point, here’s what the European Convention of Human Rights has to say about freedom of expression:
1. Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right
shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart
information and ideas without interference by public authority
and regardless of frontiers. This Article shall not prevent States
from requiring the licensing of broadcasting, television or cinema
enterprises.
[sounds pretty good so far]
2. The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it
duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities,
conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and
are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national
security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention
of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for
the protection of the reputation or rights of others, for preventing
the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for
maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary.
[Yup]
1st amendment rights here aren’t unqualified either, but the right of the state to infringe on free expression is not nearly as broad as clearly permitted in Europe (the ECHR is not a constitution, but all European signatories are at least in theory bound by its obligations).
There is a historic reason why anti-semitism is a criminal offence in some countries. If that no longer makes sense, better to challenge the historic rationale than just yell ‘hypocrisy’.
Except there is nothing “anti-semitic” about criticizing the Israeli government.
The irony is that a stronger case is easily made for making Islamophobia illegal, given the slaughters of Muslims those countries engaged in. But there’s the catch 22 factor, until the role openly practiced and advocated racism played in those acts of industrial scale, methodical slaughter is acknowledged and rejected as unacceptable, the acceptance of the racism will prevent it being seen as the root cause of the slaughter.
yep.
Above the line of comments is an article which consists of over 800 words, and has several links provided for readers to read and examine in order to gain more information beyond that provided by the 800 words. If a reader (you) looks at all of that and gains so little from it that they reduce their public showing of intellect to “yell hypocrisy,” that reader might do themselves a favor by examining their ability to comprehensively read, examine and take in information.
Free speech is the ultimate goal. But first it is necessary to eliminate all disagreement. You can’t put the cart before the horse.
That Latuff cartoon is a really good one. It is true that the real believers in free speech need to round up these ragged recruits and put them through boot camp.
I searched for them high and low and eventually gave up. I’m now off trying to track down the Yeti.
It really, really isn’t. It is falsely implying that Charlie Hebdo wasn’t ridiculing Jewish religion too.
No wonder – Latuff is an anti-Semite, always trying new ways to peddle his idiotic belief that Jews rule the world, and somehow control media and Governments all across the globe. Facts aren’t important to him as long as there is jihad to be won.
I know full well Hebdo ridicules other religions – did or did they not just take flack from the Pope this week?
But Latuff, drawing in 2012, probably wasn’t thinking of Hebdo in particular, and in any case, he didn’t write it in the cartoon, and res ipsa loquitur. I don’t know much about the guy, but whether he’s an anti-Semite or not it’s still a good cartoon. Hell, I’ll laugh at a KKK cartoon if it’s funny. I know it’s supposed to be this huge crime to laugh except when it’s allowed, but the way I see it, once you let them ban you from laughing you might as well just have them shoot you on the spot and be done with it.
“probably wasn’t thinking of Hebdo in particular”
The “prophet” drawing controversy started in 2005. CH reprinted the Danish cartoons in 2006.
And this was in 2012:
“2012 September 19
Charlie Hebdo once again publishes cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed just one year after arson attack. The front cover, with the headline “The Untouchables 2”, shows the Prophet in a wheelchair saying “You musn’t mock”. Another cartoon inside the magazine depicts the Prophet naked.
September 20
Riot police deployed around Charlie Hebdo’s offices in Paris and the magazine’s website is attacked.
December 8
Two Muslim organisations launched legal proceedings against Charlie Hebdo, accusing it of inciting racial hatred.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11341599/Prophet-Muhammad-cartoons-controversy-timeline.html
So yes, yes he was. And notice how he disingenuously presented it as being about “Muslims” and “Jews”, when the issue was always exclusively religious – depiction of the so-called Muslim “prophet”.
I agree about laughing, though. That’s why I still occasionally come on here to read the latest load of nonsense from the Greenwaldista crowd.
Well, if what you say is true, then Latuff was drawing Muhammad, or at least, drawing a drawing of Muhammad, so doesn’t he deserve your unambiguous support? :)
Haha, well played :) But he was simply illustrating his disingenuous, invented “Jews/Muslims” opposition – witness the stereotypical Jew he drew on the right side.
It’s just like when Greenwald faux-heroically printed some CH cartoons in his slanderous piece after the massacre – as if his darling terrorists would actually attack him, their loudest advocate in the West.