The sparring during Thursday’s Democratic presidential debate between Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders over whether Henry Kissinger is an elder statesman or a pariah has laid bare a major foreign policy divide within the Democratic Party.
Clinton and Sanders stand on opposite sides of that divide. One represents the hawkish Washington foreign policy establishment, which reveres and in some cases actually works for Kissinger. The other represents the marginalized non-interventionists, who can’t possibly forgive someone with the blood of millions of brown people on his hands.
Kissinger is an amazing and appropriate lens through which to see what’s at stake in the choice between Clinton and Sanders. But that only works, of course, if you understand who Kissinger is — which surely many of today’s voters don’t.
Some may only dimly recall that Kissinger won a Nobel Peace Prize for his efforts to end the Vietnam War (comedian Tom Lehrer famously said the award made political satire obsolete), and that he played a central role in President Nixon’s opening of relations with China.
But Kissinger is reviled by many left-leaning observers of foreign policy. They consider him an amoral egotist who enabled dictators, extended the Vietnam War, laid the path to the Khmer Rouge killing fields, stage-managed a genocide in East Timor, overthrew the democratically elected left-wing government in Chile, and encouraged Nixon to wiretap his political adversaries.
First, let’s review what happened at the debate. Here’s the video, followed by the transcript:
SANDERS: Where the secretary and I have a very profound difference, in the last debate — and I believe in her book — very good book, by the way — in her book and in this last debate, she talked about getting the approval or the support or the mentoring of Henry Kissinger. Now, I find it rather amazing, because I happen to believe that Henry Kissinger was one of the most destructive secretaries of state in the modern history of this country.
(APPLAUSE)
I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend. I will not take advice from Henry Kissinger. And in fact, Kissinger’s actions in Cambodia, when the United States bombed that country, overthrew Prince Sihanouk, created the instability for Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge to come in, who then butchered some 3 million innocent people, one of the worst genocides in the history of the world. So count me in as somebody who will not be listening to Henry Kissinger.
(APPLAUSE)
IFILL: Secretary Clinton?
CLINTON: Well, I know journalists have asked who you do listen to on foreign policy, and we have yet to know who that is.
SANDERS: Well, it ain’t Henry Kissinger. That’s for sure.
CLINTON: That’s fine. That’s fine.
(LAUGHTER)
You know, I listen to a wide variety of voices that have expertise in various areas. I think it is fair to say, whatever the complaints that you want to make about him are, that with respect to China, one of the most challenging relationships we have, his opening up China and his ongoing relationships with the leaders of China is an incredibly useful relationship for the United States of America.
(APPLAUSE)
So if we want to pick and choose — and I certainly do — people I listen to, people I don’t listen to, people I listen to for certain areas, then I think we have to be fair and look at the entire world, because it’s a big, complicated world out there.
SANDERS: It is.
CLINTON: And, yes, people we may disagree with on a number of things may have some insight, may have some relationships that are important for the president to understand in order to best protect the United States.
(APPLAUSE)
SANDERS: I find — I mean, it’s just a very different, you know, historical perspective here. Kissinger was one of those people during the Vietnam era who talked about the domino theory. Not everybody remembers that. You do. I do. The domino theory, you know, if Vietnam goes, China, da, da, da, da, da, da, da. That’s what he talked about, the great threat of China.
And then, after the war, this is the guy who, in fact, yes, you’re right, he opened up relations with China, and now pushed various type of trade agreements, resulting in American workers losing their jobs as corporations moved to China. The terrible, authoritarian, Communist dictatorship he warned us about, now he’s urging companies to shut down and move to China. Not my kind of guy.
(APPLAUSE)
And now, some background about Kissinger.
Greg Grandin, a history professor at New York University, just published a timely book called Kissinger’s Shadow: The Long Reach of America’s Most Controversial Statesman. In an article in The Nation last week, “Henry Kissinger, Hillary Clinton’s Tutor in War and Peace,” he offered this pithy summary:
Let’s consider some of Kissinger’s achievements during his tenure as Richard Nixon’s top foreign policy–maker. He (1) prolonged the Vietnam War for five pointless years; (2) illegally bombed Cambodia and Laos; (3) goaded Nixon to wiretap staffers and journalists; (4) bore responsibility for three genocides in Cambodia, East Timor, and Bangladesh; (5) urged Nixon to go after Daniel Ellsberg for having released the Pentagon Papers, which set off a chain of events that brought down the Nixon White House; (6) pumped up Pakistan’s ISI, and encouraged it to use political Islam to destabilize Afghanistan; (7) began the U.S.’s arms-for-petrodollars dependency with Saudi Arabia and pre-revolutionary Iran; (8) accelerated needless civil wars in southern Africa that, in the name of supporting white supremacy, left millions dead; (9) supported coups and death squads throughout Latin America; and (10) ingratiated himself with the first-generation neocons, such as Dick Cheney and Paul Wolfowitz, who would take American militarism to its next calamitous level. Read all about it in Kissinger’s Shadow!
A full tally hasn’t been done, but a back-of-the-envelope count would attribute 3, maybe 4 million deaths to Kissinger’s actions, but that number probably undercounts his victims in southern Africa. Pull but one string from the current tangle of today’s multiple foreign policy crises, and odds are it will lead back to something Kissinger did between 1968 and 1977. Over-reliance on Saudi oil? That’s Kissinger. Blowback from the instrumental use of radical Islam to destabilize Soviet allies? Again, Kissinger. An unstable arms race in the Middle East? Check, Kissinger. Sunni-Shia rivalry? Yup, Kissinger. The impasse in Israel-Palestine? Kissinger. Radicalization of Iran? “An act of folly” was how veteran diplomat George Ball described Kissinger’s relationship to the Shah. Militarization of the Persian Gulf? Kissinger, Kissinger, Kissinger.
The late essayist Christopher Hitchens examined Kissinger’s war crimes in his 2001 book, The Trial of Henry Kissinger. He listed the key elements of his case:
1. The deliberate mass killing of civilian populations in Indochina.
2. Deliberate collusion in mass murder, and later in assassination, in Bangladesh.
3. The personal suborning and planning of murder, of a senior constitutional officer in a democratic nation — Chile — with which the United States was not at war.
4. Personal involvement in a plan to murder the head of state in the democratic nation of Cyprus.
5. The incitement and enabling of genocide in East Timor
6. Personal involvement in a plan to kidnap and murder a journalist living in Washington, D.C.
Kissinger’s role in the genocide that took place in East Timor is less well-known than the one he enabled in Indochina. Author Charles Glass wrote about that episode in 2011:
On December 6, 1975, Kissinger and Gerald Ford met President Suharto in Indonesia and promised to increase arms supplies to sustain Indonesian suppression of the former Portuguese colony. Kissinger, quoted verbatim in U.S. Embassy cables of that war council, insisted that American weapons for the Indonesian Army’s invasion could be finessed: “It depends on how we construe it; whether it is in self-defense or is a foreign operation.”
Since no one in East Timor had attacked or intended to attack Indonesia, Suharto could hardly plead self-defense. But Kissinger would make the case for him. All he asked was that Suharto delay the invasion a few hours until he and Ford had left Jakarta. He presumably relied on the American public’s inability to connect the Jakarta conference with the invasion so long as he and Ford were back in Washington when the killing began. As far as the American media went, he was right. The Indonesian Army invaded on the anniversary of a previous day of infamy, December 7, massacring about a third of the population. The press, apart from five Australian journalists whom the Indonesian Army slaughtered, ignored the invasion and subsequent occupation. Well done, Henry.
By the time Suharto was overthrown in 1998, Kissinger had gone private — charging vast fees to advise people like Suharto on methods for marketing their crimes. He also kept posing as an elder statesman whose views were sought (and often paid for) by a media that enabled his penchant for self-publicity. He was a patriot whose love of country stopped short of taking part in the 9/11 Commission if it meant disclosing how much the Saudi royal family paid him for his counsel.
The continuing role Kissinger plays in modern foreign policy is perfectly illustrated by Hillary Clinton, his longtime fan and friend. Just recently, in November, she reviewed Kissinger’s latest book, World Order, for the Washington Post. There’s a summary of that here.
Clinton called it “vintage Kissinger, with his singular combination of breadth and acuity along with his knack for connecting headlines to trend lines.” She wrote that “his analysis, despite some differences over specific policies, largely fits with the broad strategy behind the Obama administration’s effort over the past six years to build a global architecture of security and cooperation for the 21st century.”
And she said he came off as “surprisingly idealistic. Even when there are tensions between our values and other objectives, America, he reminds us, succeeds by standing up for our values, not shirking them, and leads by engaging peoples and societies, the source of legitimacy, not governments alone.”
A key passage:
Kissinger is a friend, and I relied on his counsel when I served as secretary of state. He checked in with me regularly, sharing astute observations about foreign leaders and sending me written reports on his travels. Though we have often seen the world and some of our challenges quite differently, and advocated different responses now and in the past, what comes through clearly in this new book is a conviction that we, and President Obama, share: a belief in the indispensability of continued American leadership in service of a just and liberal order.
The difference between the two views of Kissinger is not simply of academic or historical interest. How a presidential candidate feels about him is a clear sign of her or his worldview and indicates the kind of decisions she or he will make in office – and, perhaps even more importantly, suggests the kind of staffers she or he will appoint to key positions of authority in areas of diplomacy, defense, national security, and intelligence.
Sanders has not made clear who he is turning to for foreign policy advice, if anyone. (What’s your dream foreign policy team? Email me at froomkin@theintercept.com.)
But Clinton is clearly picking from the usual suspects — the “securocrats in waiting” who make up the Washington, D.C., foreign policy establishment.
They work at places like Albright Stonebridge, the powerhouse global consulting firm led by former Secretary of State Madeline Albright, a staunch Clinton backer. They work at places like Beacon Global Strategies, which is providing high-profile foreign policy guidance to Clinton — as well as to Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz. And they work at places like Kissinger Associates. In fact, Bob Hormats, who was a Goldman Sachs vice chairman before serving as Clinton’s undersecretary of state, is now advising Clinton’s campaign even while serving as the vice chairman of Kissinger Associates.
Despite the wildly bellicose and human rights-averse rhetoric from the leading Republican presidential candidates, they’re picking from essentially the same pool as well.
A few weeks ago, I talked to Chas Freeman, the former diplomat I once called a “one-man destroyer of groupthink,” whose non-interventionism and even-handed approach to the Middle East was so un-Kissingeresque that his surprising appointment to President Obama’s National Intelligence Council in 2009 lasted all of a few days.
He marveled at the lack of any “honest brokers” in the D.C. foreign policy establishment. “We have a foreign policy elite in this country that’s off its meds, basically,” he said.
“There’s no debate because everybody’s interventionist, everybody’s militaristic.” They all are pretty much in the thrall of neoconservatism, he said. You can see them “speckled all over the Republican side” and “also in the Clinton group.”
Henry Kissinger is thus a litmus test for foreign policy. But don’t count on the mainstream media to help you understand that.
Imagine two types of people: those who would schmooze with Kissinger at a cocktail party, and those who would spit in his eye. The elite Washington media is almost without exception in that first category. In fact, they’d probably have anyone who spit in Kissinger’s eye arrested.
Since they only see one side, they don’t want to get into it. And there was a little indicator at Thursday night’s debate, hosted by PBS, of just how eagerly the elite political media welcomes an honest exploration of the subject.
Just as Sanders raised the issue of Kissinger’s legacy in Vietnam, either Gwen Ifill or Judy Woodruff — both of whom are very conventional, establishment, Washington cocktail-party celebrities — was caught audibly muttering, “Oh, God.”
Top photo: Hillary Clinton smiles as Henry Kissinger presents her with a Distinguished Leadership Award from the Atlantic Council in Washington in May 2013.
So a vote for Hillary is a vote for Henry and everything criminal, psychopathic and war mongering he represents. I come from the group that would neither spit in his eye nor praise and adore him. I come from the group that would happily pull the lever or give the command “ready, aim and fire” to deal with one of history’s true criminal neocon ideologue killers with the blood of millions on his hands – Henry Kissinger. Does ol Henry travel out of the country much anymore?? Or is he like Bush, Cheney and those lying, thieving criminals that don’t leave the security of their home country much any more for fear of being arrested as war criminals especially in Europe??
America seems doomed to be the slaves of warmongers because America was founded thru theft and slavery. The mechanics of relationships between the people has been inherited and used in the competitive almost-a-war-but-not-quite struggle for survival and comfort which God guaranteed in a good way but which was withheld or stripped from America by those who seek to conquer it in a different way.
The force of setting americans to fight the wars of others is a trap. The guilt of having robbed others of their lives and land is, rather than recompensed, traded for a dose of the satisfaction of being able to do it again as a hero- only to be on the hook for more as the traumatic stress starts leaking reality that conflicts with the misconception of brute training.
So kissinjure – feigning as the devil’s advocate – tells americans “hey, do what you always do, do it some more, do what you do best, plenty more where that came from”. Americans, needing that feel good to feel good, suck it up hook line and sinker. And sinker it is. Between those who learn the hard way and those who dont learn at all, those who do learn not the hard way are seriously out-numbered. And in a faux democracy, them is really bad odds.
We honest to God still can’t believe you blocked Little Weed. Duh biggest writer on human torture and you blocked her? WTF?
Blood Traces: Bernie’s Iraq War Hypocrisy
~Jeffrey St. Clair, CounterPunch, 2/16/2016
Interestingly Obama’s stepfather Lolo Soetoro was a colonel during Suharto’s and Dr. K’s genocide in Indonesia.
And Colin Powell worked as a young officer to try to whitewash the My Lai massacre. So, your point would be…?
Stepfather. Real solid connection ya got there.
AS much as I’d like to see some semblance of peace in my lifetime I just don’t think it’s in the cards. The US govt is just to damn aggressive for my taste of peaceful existence. It just seems that it really doesn’t matter who is in the White House the same players are always pulling the strings. Well this relentless hegemony will come to an end, sooner that most people think. The Earth has a finite number of resources to exploit, a finite amount of carbon that can be pumped into the atmosphere. So now all the leaders want to do is wage more war, exploit resources in the name of capitalistic enterprise. Most theory’s state that it will collapse at some point. I think we are now close to the collapse and nobody wants to avert it. Assuming that the collapse can be stopped who’s the leader to stop it? WE don’t have one!! It’s probably inevitable that IT will happen, only when is the real question facing western civilization. I think that the time is now, to reassess mankind’s goals and lead us away from this insanity. Who is up to the task? That’s the question facing mankind today.
I’m sorry who violated the neutrality of Cambodia? It was the North Vietnamese. Where did Pol Pot get his genocidal ideology? The French Communists (PCF). In what sense was the Domino Theory not absolutely correct??? Oh and what famous MIT linguist/guru defended the Khmer Rouge from “lies and propaganda” about genocide? I can’t recall.
The Domino Theory was absolutely wrong in the case of Ho Chi Minh.
Robert Welch’s (perfect name) drool has been shown to be a joke for decades, but you suck it up hook, line, and sinker.
re: “Please, Sir, may I have another”.
[snip]
‘. . . Sanders’ actions in the realm of support for the military are deserving of exploration and, in most instances noted above, condemnation.
However, Pedinska (aka `p-ska) – or someone – seems to have editorialized within their “quote”. And there is no link providing us with an opportunity to examine the evidence independently, so I would only ask that she make distinctions between the facts and her (or whomever’s) concerns over them and give us the link as well!’
https://youtu.be/qdFLPn30dvQ
A Don’t Tell Me You’re Gonna Pork Mabel Minkoff Production
ht `buhdungbung
What if……..??
https://medium.com/@raberro/what-if-henry-kissinger-was-my-father-9068264666ce#.4zztawpit
Those wanting to learn more about Kissinger’s role and support for Indonesia’s brutal invasion and occupation of East Timor should check out the East Timor and Indonesia Action Network http://www.etan.org.
I cannot believe she has not yet been charged for the felonious activity she participated in while in Obama’s cabinet. Her own personal server at home holding Top Secret documents and worse…she has lied about it to all of us. I do not want her for President. Go Bernie! Hillary is a scourge to democracy!
It was refreshing to see someone writing about the evils of Henry Kissinger and the problematic connection with Hillary Clinton. I’ve read about all of this in the past but didn’t realize this connection until Bernie Sanders mentioned it. With that said, its also hugely disappointing that “The Intercept” also contains a figure such as Glenn Greenwald – one of the biggest individuals of misinformation on-line. He is a disgrace, and the very fact that he writes for the intercept gives me an impression that I shouldn’t trust almost anything on this website. Whether Dan Froomkin supports Glenn Greenwald or not, it matters that they write at the same site. Just do enough research and you’ll notice that he is a liar, and honesty is at the bottom of his list of goals in his fake journalistic career.
Hey Dimitri, Do you have a friend named ‘Lenk’?
I’ve been reading Glenn’s Stuff for years. Be specific little man. Cite any case in which you believe Glenn has lied about anything. You can’t.
Now run along. You should have stopped after your comments about Kissinger.
So, go ahead…give us examples.
Glenn Greenwald is one of the few honest journalists working in the world today. You can criticize him for being long-winded, for harping on the same subjects over and over again, but he pretty much always uses facts and tells the truth.
Hillary Clinton: Still a Goldwater Girl After All These Years
http://coreyrobin.com/2016/02/14/hillary-clinton-still-a-goldwater-girl-after-all-these-years/
For at least two thirds of our miseries spring from human stupidity, human malice and those great motivators and justifiers of malice and stupidity, idealism, dogmatism and proselytizing zeal on behalf of religious or political idols — Aldous Huxley
Obama is going to release the 28 pages of the Joint Investigation Report into 9/11 that had been obediently redacted by GW Bush.
This will put a brake on Saudi adventurism in Syria.
Or maybe I am dreaming.
When?
Please provide a source for Obama’s release of the 28 pages. Thank you.
The similarity between Clinton and Kissinger can be seen in Clinton’s relationships with “our Arab partners” (who needs enemies, when such ‘partners’ finance radical Wahhabi-Sunni terrorism in the form of ISIS), i.e. Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Turkey, etc. These mirror Kissinger’s relationship with the Shah of Iran, who was a savage dictator with a brutal STASI-type secret police, SAVAK, which crushed all pro-democracy dissent within his own country (about all those Saudi beheadings, now…), but who also helped Kissinger and his political friends such as Nixon, whenever he could (now, about all those Saudi donations to the Clinton Foundation…), for example contributing to the Nixon reelection slush funds (seems rather like Citizens United) and who pleased Wall Street and arms dealers with massive weapons purchases (like the Shah, like the $30 billion – or is it $60 billion? in Obama and Bush arms deals with the Saudis). . . read all about it:
http://www.ibtimes.com/clinton-foundation-donors-got-weapons-deals-hillary-clintons-state-department-1934187
Now, would Sanders change any of that? Possibly, yes, with enough pressure, if it is made clear that the U.S. needs to fund domestic infrastructure far more than it needs to fund a foreign military posture leftover from the Cold War – a Cold War, by the way, that NATO, the Pentagon and the State Department seem bent on re-igniting, to justify the continuation of their bloated foreign military budgets.
So, let’s instead start pulling out of the Middle East, by pushing for regional peace talks modeled on the India-Pakistan model, in which we don’t have “allies or partners” on one side or the other, but rather try to get Iran and Saudi Arabia to the peace talks table, like responsible adult diplomats would do.
Sanders might – might – be persuaded to do this. Why, even Trump might – might – be persuaded to take this approach. But the Clinton Foundation or say, Jeb Bush or Cruz or Rubio – no way are they going to ignore their top fundraisers on that one. That’s why the establishment candidates like Clinton would be a disaster for the future of this country.
Finally some common sense. Adding insult to ignorance, within the last fourteen years, the U.S. spent over $3 TRILLION Taxpayer dollars on two wars that 99.99999% of Americans cannot remotely explain where the money went or what was accomplished in the process. And, needless to say, within the same time gave over a $TRILLION Taxpayer dollars to Wall Street Banks over a mortgage fiasco they created then benefited from the carnage it caused.
@DougSalzmann:
Another what-about-this factoid you claim bolsters your position that Churchill is not worthy of any admiration.
The Battle of Britain prevented Hitler from invading England. Had Hitler invaded, there never would have been a D-Day invasion as it took the allies over 2 years stockpiling material for the 25 mile water-crossing to France.
Without D-Day, Europe would have been in the hands of Stalin or Hitler.
Off topic.
From an in-chambers pre-trial session for a Texas man accused of trying to join ISIS, the best transcript ever (pdf).
The entire thing is worth reading IMHO, but here is an excerpt:
Hot Damn, benitoe! That’s better than Judge Judy!!!
*btw, a terabyte is a measure of digital information that is equal to one trillion bytes … burn after reading https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FHpOLiobmA
Have we really gotten this far in the discussion with neither Dan nor anyone BTL mentioning Sanders’ expression of admiration for Churchill?
Over at In These Times, where Bernie is mostly praised to the heavens, Branko Marcetic noticed:
More at source.
blah, blah, blah, “But nobody can deny that as a wartime leader he rallied the British people when they stood virtually alone against the Nazi juggernaut, and rallied them, and eventually won an extraordinary victory.” blah, blah, blah.
blah, blah, blah
blah, blah, blah,
What shall we dismiss next, nuf? Maybe this one:
blah, blah, blah
Had the British not stood up to Hitler early in the war there never would have been a D-day invasion. The British saved the world in that regard.
As far as I know, that’s all true about Winston Churchill. And yup, the Allies committed war crimes in WWII.
War crimes happen in every war, and those who approve of a war must accept that reality when they decide the war is just. To not do so is to leave out a very important factor in one’s moral calculus.
How, tho, can one say stopping Hitler was wrong? Unless one is a pacifist I don’t see any way around it. And Churchill did help stop Hitler.
Particularly for a 74-yer-old Jewish man who lost family to the Holocaust (in Poland) it’s understandable why he admires those who ended the Third Reich. Almost all leftists of that era supported that war.
And Kissinger’s policy of détente may have averted a nuclear war with the Soviet Union.
Churchill vs. Kissinger is a very difficult GOTE (Greater Of Two Evils) choice. Ultimately, I’d go with Kissinger, since he won the Nobel Peace prize, while Churchill only won the Nobel prize for literature. I am a firm believer that a person’s character is best judged by their contemporaries. The Peace prize is generally (with a few exceptions) awarded to persons responsible for starting wars – so Kissinger’s contemporaries judged him to be more bellicose than did Churchill’s contemporaries. I have to respect that.
GW Bush was reading ‘My Pet GOTE’ when The Apocalypse struck on 9/11! *might just be co-incidence, but I doubt it.
“How, tho, can one say stopping Hitler was wrong?”
It wasn’t wrong, but it’s also true that responsibility for the conditions that led to the rise of Hitler and Nazism can be laid largely at the feet of the Allies of WWI, because of their vengeful and punitive treatment of Germany at and after Versailles. To his credit, Churchill knew this was a serious mistake.
“And Churchill did help stop Hitler.”
Yes, although his contribution was much less significant than Stalin’s and we don’t lionize him for stopping the Nazis, do we?
To brush aside war crimes in general as unavoidable is simply wrong and immoral. It’s true that that, in the heat of battle, individual acts of brutality and atrocities are probably not preventable — My Lai in Vietnam, Robert Bales in Afghanistan. But those are very different from the deliberate and considered crimes of monstrous proportion ordered by politicians and generals far from the front lines, with malice aforethought — the bombing of Dresden, the fire-bombing of Tokyo, the ordering of chemical weapons attacks. To ignore this reality is to leave out a very important factor in one’s moral calculus.
“Particularly for a 74-yer-old Jewish man who lost family to the Holocaust . . .”
Perfectly understandable in terms of individual emotions and biases. Entirely unacceptable as a basis for a potential president selecting models of foreign policy construction.
“Almost all leftists of that era supported that war.”
That’s really not true. The leftists who supported the war were largely those affiliated with Comintern, who first opposed it and then supported it, on orders from Moscow, when Stalin switched positions and sides. Many other socialists, Trotskyists, Left Communists and various brands of anarchists continued to oppose the war throughout.
I’m brushing nothing aside: I’m stating a reality. When American brass try to tell you they’ve committed no war crimes in War X, they are lying. As is any leader whose country is at war. War is about breaking things and killing people. Civilization goes out the window and people behave like monsters.
But not if he understands that model being WWII-Churchill. I’m a well-read, highly educated person, and I didn’t know all the vile stuff about Churchill until about five years ago — I learned it online. By contrast, the facts about Kissinger happened in our lifetimes. We saw them.
No. Other leftists were disgusted when the CPUSA snapped to to Stalin’s orders to oppose attacking Hitler (because of the Hitler-Stalin pact). If there’s one thing virtually all leftists had in common in that era it was opposition to fascism in Spain, Italy and Germany.
Doug, I give you kudos for not participating in the slaughter of Viet Nam.
Thanks. There were many who refused, resisted, or at least evaded that horror show. Some of us have paid a significant price for that, but none of us has suffered as much as the millions of Vietnamese and the tens of thousands of misguided but sincere — or simply coerced — Americans who were killed, maimed, terrorized and emotionally scarred for life.
And then, of course, there were the fortunate sons who had “other priorities” or took part in the brave fight for freedom by protecting Houston against attack by North Vietnam (when not campaigning in adjacent states).
Boom
Hillary Clinton and the Syrian Bloodbath
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeffrey-sachs/hillary-clinton-and-the-s_b_9231190.html
I thought Hillary did a good job answering the Kissinger comment, with the entire debate actually. She’s too much of a hawk but they all are.
Sanders says some good words in opposition to regime change but he has sympathies for the same policies (as mentioned in the debate concerning Russia, Iran, and regime change for Libya) Obama was against the war in Iraq also but what did that change once he got on the inside?
I think the differences between Democrat and Republicans candidates now in foreign policy is how they will conduct the fight against opposition to the US and sponsors race to control the the Middle East before Russia (USSR) gets it’s strength back. (too bad they weren’t able to intervene in Iraq)
This includes how they lead and explain what they’re doing at home or how they would treat dissent to foreign policy. ( if you criticized GWBush during the Iraq war you were a traitor)
We know Republicans are against freedom of religion and that they get what they want by turning Americans against each other. We also know they are very sore losers. (http://www.theonion.com/article/moderator-asks-candidates-be-specific-when-describ-52353) and fight nasty.
We know what kind of opposition we’ll get from Republicans and Americans with a Clinton running for president or in office and how it will affect the people but there are unknowns with a Jewish (conservative media and international sponsors will go there) candidate or a POTUS that are frankly scary.
You wonder how their very predictable opposition and obstruction will affect Sander’s ability to make foreign policy decisions or gather support from the public for anything he tries to do. ( consider the way they responded to Obama replacing Scalia and his last budget.)
How will the far left and right deal with a Jewish president supporting Israel, Middle East nation building and preemptive assassinations? How will this reaction affect the decisions our “allies”?
Personally I still think that Jeb “I hope I’ll run for president, please clap” Bush will be the Republican candidate that either Sanders or Clinton will be up against in this election but it could be Trump.
There are huge differences between the Republicans and Democrats in how they argue, lead, conduct wars and in support or not for social policies as well as views on the environment.
So much of what military does now is top secret, most candidates will have a questionable adjustment to make. Of who we have to choose from I’d pick Hillary. She has the best idea of what she’s stepping into on the inside with Republicans and Foreign Policy and still wants the job. I find that incredible.
I think Sanders could surprise us on Israel. I could easily be kidding myself, however I think he is much more reasonable on foreign policy. Know things change (Obama) once you are on the inside.
However Clinton is as deadly a war hawk as Cheney, Wolfowitz. I firmly believe this…not hard with the evidence. Iraq, Libya, Syria
Moreover, Hillary’s Kissinger problem is not going away, nor should it.
“However Clinton is as deadly a war hawk as Cheney, Wolfowitz. I firmly believe this…” @Kathleen, I’m right there with you. Sometimes when I look at her, her face morphs into Wolfowitz’s face . . . She scares the bejeezus out of me . . .
Obama may use Easter break for a recess appointment.
Fuck congress, it’s dysfunctional.
any idea if that has been done before? Oh hell will go google
I found this by Jonathan Adler, July 29, 2007
I wonder if Jonathan will stand by his words today?
I agree with the poster below who lauded this thread for its discussions. Having said that, these long ones make me feel like I have to continue discussions from down yonder, up here where they’ll be seen by the conversants, so here goes: Doug
Pedinska, you know I have a long-standing respect and appreciation for your contributions here and in the previous incarnations of these discussions.
Well, I pretty much thought that until seeing repeated references to being baby bombers. Since you know me fairly well, I know you know that’s not something I hold anything but abhorrence for.
I do not, in any way, shape or form, miss your most critical point. As I have repeatedly noted, my commitment to voting for Sanders extends only as far as the primary. And only to support an effort – at the moment, in the primaries, the ONLY effort that exists – at pushback against the PTB. Sanders main push is economic, not military (which is a shame), but for doG’s sake, a pushback of some kind has to start somewhere. It’s not on the topic you or I might have chosen, but it exists and, if that kind of effort is not to die entirely in frustration, it needs to have some kind of success to encourage more and bigger efforts.
I think this is unarguably the case and that it firmly establishes the truth that any vote for any candidate of the One Party with Two Right Wings constitutes a vote for baby bombing.
That would be true if we were discussing my vote in the general election, but we’re not. I answered your question below about HRC in the general v any Republican as “No and no”. I meant that. I will vote for Jill Stein in the general. It won’t be my first vote for her.
The lesser of two evils is still evil, especially when s/he has little prospect of meaningfully changing the ongoing evil pattern and practice.
Evil is never, ever corrected wholesale. There is a very strong current of dissatisfaction – on both the left and the right – in the country and it’s only getting stronger. The right has applied itself relentlessly and adamantly to pushing everything further to the right, in every single nook and cranny where they can get the tiniest fingernail hold. If there is not a similar down-in-the-dirt effort on the left then we may as well curl up and let them have it all. I am not willing to do that.
I will look for every possible means to bend the Overton window back. Sanders’ candidacy represents just such a moment (however horribly imperfect) at a time when Clinton, the epitome of establishment candidates, thought she’d walk to a general election coronation. Fuck that notion adamantly. The fact that the establishment has done nothing but fight against him and slag him at every turn should tell us that he represents some kind of change they are unwilling to tolerate. For now, in the primary, I will take that nugget and join with others to force those fuckers to look at it up close and personal. And then I will go actively looking for more when the general rolls around.
Sing it, Sister Pedinska. #cosign
Hallelujah!
Again, well-written and well-reasoned, Pedinska. I’ve just been around for too many of these noble “pushback” efforts, deeply involved in them when I was younger, to think that they have any chance at achieving their goals.
As I’ve said before, here and in other threads, hope and optimism, for progress at any level beyond the local, has become pointless — we really do live in an oligarchy and we really don’t have any significant effect on policy outcomes. To the extent that said optimism diverts attention and effort from local matters, it is counterproductive and, for that reason, maladaptive.
I’ve also said that I understand that hope and optimism are human traits that were, for most of our development, useful and adaptive and that the opposite has been true for such a short period in our evolution that there has been little chance for us to recognize the change.
I know I’m not going to convince you to abandon hope for the System as a whole, although I wish I could, as there is really no hope for it.
Let me ask you this: If Sanders were, somehow, to become the Democratic nominee (very unlikely, IMO), and you were faced with a choice that you would have to agree was “between two baby bombers,” would you vote for Sanders? Or would you still vote for Stein?
Let me ask you Doug, do you pay taxes?
Do you advocate that one should go to prison rather than fund the baby-bombing Military Industrial Complex?
False equivalence.
But, just FYI, I did go to “prison” for my actions opposing the war on Vietnam, spending a few months in what was effectively solitary confinement, although it was a much nicer cell than the ones we typically torture prisoners in these days.
I think not. As demonstrated that you merely assert that, and do not attempt to explain why.
You don’t understand that attempting to compare the voluntary act of voting with the compulsory paying of taxes is a false equivalence?
You need this explained to you?
Come on, Mona.
Nope, not unless you think the morality of the decision-making is affected by calculating a vote = much less killing & other atrocious shit v. agreeing to pay for killing/atrocious shit rather than pay a price. If you think that, please explain why you do.
You’re in your must win argument mode, again, Mona.
You know it’s a logical fallacy, or you should.
Also, there’s not only a moral difference, there’s a difference based upon evolutionary biology and psychology. I’m not going to try to explain these things to you, because (a) you are deeply mired in belief perseverance, so it would be useless and (b) you are so deeply addicted to “winning” arguments that you will go on endlessly and it just gets boring.
And, in any event, I have 50 years of street cred on this issue, having paid a price not only of imprisonment but of a lifetime of being cut off from the advantages enjoyed by the compromisers of my youth and being forced to make my way on the margins of our society. I don’t have the patience to argue much longer with dilettantes.
Doug, your entire response is literally one fallacy after another. First, you invoke the fallacy fallacy, then you move on to irrelevant non sequiturs about “evolutionary biology and psychology.” Adding in ad hominem, poisoning-the-well speculation about my motives, and topping it all off with arguments from your own (non sequitur) vaunted authority.
You have not given a responsive answer to this inquiry:
He actually answered your inquiry, but you cannot comprehend the answer as you are “highly educated”.
“Let me ask you Doug, do you pay taxes?”
“Do you advocate that one should go to prison rather than fund the baby-bombing Military Industrial Complex?”
Moreover, you can surrender your US citizenship and terminate legally your obligations to pay taxes and fund the a Military Industrial Complex. It is quite amazing that Chomsky, Greenwald…and others keep funding what they call a “terrorist” state.
That’s right, but Doug apparently has not done this. It appears he continues to pay taxes that are used for baby bombing, among other atrocious things.
Yes, he did. And as I continue to point out to him, he did so in a non-responsive, fallacy-filled manner.
Forgive my intrusion Doug, but that sounds suspiciously like GOTE! *Greater Of Two Evils!? h/t, once again, benitoe on ‘pure evil’
*carry on …
“Forgive my intrusion Doug, but that sounds suspiciously like GOTE! *Greater Of Two Evils!?”
Nah. Doesn’t compute. But thanks for the wise words of the god of war and death.
>”Doesn’t compute.”
Now, Doug, it don’t take no mathematical wizard to know if there is a LOTE there must be a GOTE!
In any case, your right about one thing; I never have/nor never will vote for either.
And there doth appear to be some cognitive dissonance emanating from between Bernie’s ears reminiscent Obama’s empty calls for ‘civility’ and ‘friendship’ … in the face of lawless global anarchy.
*shit, Obama has been peeing down my back and telling me it’s raining for almost 8 years now!
Still, Sanders strikes me as, at least, honest! And I believe honesty …’is the foundation of every human affair.’
Sanders may not move the ‘Overton’ window that much … but that what Trump is for! *last night, during the ‘debate’, Trump pretty much demolished the Overton window and began wholesale renovations!
Good exists … evil is non-existence.
Yes we do.
The oligarchs know if the peasants are too upset the fields will not be plowed.
Spare us your brain salad stupidity. If you think voting for the town dog-catcher is more important than POTUS, well, you are just shilling for Trump or Clinton.
But then you argue climate change is way over-blown, so …
“If you think voting for the town dog-catcher is more important than POTUS. . .”
I think, indeed I know, that your vote for town dog-catcher, mayor or council-member is more meaningful and has more effect in real life than your vote for any presidential candidate.
“But then you argue climate change is way over-blown, so …”
Excuse me? You know, nuf, the combination of rude and dead fucking wrong is a particularly unattractive one.
Let me ask you this: If Sanders were, somehow, to become the Democratic nominee (very unlikely, IMO), and you were faced with a choice that you would have to agree was “between two baby bombers,” would you vote for Sanders? Or would you still vote for Stein?
I don’t have a crystal ball and can’t predict what other information may come out between now and the general election that could influence my thought process, but if that were to occur tomorrow, with the information available to us today, I would vote for Stein.
Thanks, Pedinska.
So, we’re left with an argument over the morality and/or the utility of voting for Sanders in the primaries.
I continue to believe that it is an error on both counts, but I’m somewhat comforted by your answer. ;^)
Impunity is a testament to American power and the corruption of establishment media. America doesn’t demand accountability for American war criminals. It names airports after them.
VOTE HILLARY!
“…I mean, heck, she backs mass-murderers, child rapists, sex assaults on women, crony capitalism, high treason…who wouldn’t want her as President?”
Potential Supreme Court Nominees
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/02/14/us/politics/potential-supreme-court-nominees.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=0
Pfft. Majority leader Mitch ‘money is free speech’ McConnell has spoken … then quickly drew his head back in like a frightened turtle, iykwim./
Truth be told, I’m not that fond of Obama’s appointments to date anyway. Sotomayer seems a relatively free-spirit, but I fear Kagen is bought and paid for.
*I’m willing to wait for a Bernie Sanders nomination … if Mitch is.
[Also, Idk if it’s just me, but, it tickles me pink that the Media Stars don’t seem to realize both the theBern and Thedon are, first and foremost, a repudiation of *them* … in that the more they predict a Trump/Sanders loss, the more Trump/Sanders win?]
I should also point out that the reason I am here, now, is mostly due to Justice Scalia in Gore v. Bush. Which I thought was some sort of judicial … coup.
*otherwise, I’d most likely still be making Bill/Monica jokes …
P.S. Happy Valentines Day!
You know, I’ve often thought that McConnell must have spent months in front of a mirror perfecting that “startled turtle” look he wears like a shield. It’s probably provided him with lots of opportunities to be misunderestimated, IYKWIM.
I don’t have any firm knowledge of the folks listed in that article but will be looking for it where ever I can find it as this goes on. I agree that Sotomayor was the high point, with Kagan representing a disappointing slide toward more corporate horror opinions in the future. And he’s unlikely to get anyone to her left accepted even if McConnell decides to come back out of his decrepit, cracked and pitted shell.
About the only thing we can count on is much sound and fury. :-s
Happy Valentine’s Day to you too. It’s pretty cold here today, so it looks like some downtime in front of the woodburning stove with my garden spreadsheets and seed orders and a cup of hot homemade tea are on the agenda. The only good reason I can see for winter – other than playing in the snow with the Bishound – is the time it gives me to savor new ideas for spring. :-)
Well … come spring time, don’t forget to plant some Red Buds of Appalachia in the garden of thy heart. :)
<3
Obviously, neither President Clinton, Hillary nor Chelsea got drafted as a teenager.
Good to see a high comment thread that is quite civil and remarkably without rancor. If only Greenwald’s where so…
Well Greg, reducing rancor and facilitating civility are better achieved by not straw-manning other commenters.
Bernie is not Pacifist. Many people of Bernie’s generation remember WWII as the “good war.” The country was united and its enemies (Nazi Germany and imperial Japan were evil and needed to be defeated.
People of his generation later turned against the war in Vietnam where Bernie registered as a Conscientious Objector. Vietnamese saw the war as a colonial war to unite their country and drive out foreigners. Washington sold the war as part of the Cold War struggle against communism aka Godless Communism.
Bernie was formed in a different era and may not share the views of post Cold War generations that have only seen America as an aggressor.
I know it difficult to believe nowadays, but Americans were once viewed as saviors and liberators, a nation that lived up to the values it espoused.
Despite the use of atomic weapons, WWII might have been the last “good” war. It certainly was a necessary war. Maybe Korea too.
I recall reading an interview with a US WWII Vet who was interrogating a captured German soldier. The German asked him where he was from and the Vet told him. The German replied to the effect, that he lived right near the “such and such” river. The US Vet was amazed, as the river was really an insignificant creek much of the year. The German replied that he had thoroughly studied and memorized US geography as he was to be part of the planned invasion and occupation force once they had defeated the US home based forces and resistance. That interview pretty much convinced me that we were right to enter the war against Germany.
“Despite the use of atomic weapons, WWII might have been the last ‘good’ war. It certainly was a necessary war.”
If it was necessary it was largely because of the Allies vengeful treatment of Germany at Versailles and thereafter, which created the conditions that gave rise to Hitler and the Nazis and a general desire on the part of Germans to escape the shackles in which the victors in the previous war had been keeping them.
As for US participation, that was the result of careful manipulation of a reluctant people by the Roosevelt administration and the deliberate provocation of the Japanese by means of economic sanctions. Henry Stimson, Secretary of War, in his personal diary, following a meeting of the “war cabinet” on November 25, 1941:
And I just love the throwaway line, “Despite the use of atomic weapons . . .” You could add, “Despite the deaths of 50 million civilians . . .”
“Maybe Korea too.”
As with your first assertion, it depends upon your definition of “necessary.” Would the Korean War have been “necessary” if a couple of aides in the US State Department, working to figure out how the Allies would divvy up control of the nations formerly occupied by Japan, hadn’t come up with the brilliant idea of splitting Korea at the 38th parallel? Would it have been “necessary” if the US hadn’t supported dictator Syngman Rhee, in Seoul, who was every bit as eager to reunite Korea by taking the northern half as Kim Il Sung was to take the south?
Americans have been programmed from birth to see all our wars as right, proper, necessary and heroic and, especially, to see our involvement in WWII as heroic and unavoidable. Few ever question the received wisdom and it has become an article of our “national faith.”
And there are no “good” wars.
You probably aren’t speaking for the native Americans, black folks or the Jewish refuge ship St.Louis that was turned away prior to the Holocaust. But we have always been a beacon for Caucasian christians.
Um, no. Not if they were Irish Catholics or Eastern Europeans.
I was a young adult when Viet Nam was in full on war. I lived thru the soldiers dying and being returned home weekly in caskets draped with the American flag. They were our classmates, our friends, our brothers and the draft was a frightening reality for any male over the age of 17. It was on the television news non-stop for years. If you lived during those times…Cambodia, Viet Nam, the unsettled Middle East etc.,….. you will never forget the tragedy that swept the world and you will NEVER forget the name Kissinger. I hear the soundtrack of Platoon in my head when I see his picture.
Because I was still very young( 20-21) and very naive, I didn’t know enough about the world or politics to understand the dynamics. I am a huge Bernie Sanders supporter. I cringe at the thought of either Clinton anywhere near the White House again. I have a visceral feeling about their united dishonesty….but I will not enumerate the reasons here. Today I am a voracious reader, researcher and political hound trying to piece together where our country went so wrong that has enabled us to lay this path of lies, deceit and harmful will on our own people as well as the world at large.
Like a good parent, we believed that our household [country] is one of moral values, that our children [country men/women, leaders and politicians] will go out and do great things for all people because we were told we did a good job raising them. Up until now, I truly believed that, with few instances, the United States has been the Good Will messenger always acting in the interest of making the world a better place. But today, ike that good parent who now sees her child as an adult that makes mistakes, I can clearly see politics thru a different lens as well resulting in a very different and unsettling review of how life changed from that picket fence ideal to a reality of hatred and war mongering. The equivalent of the good child gone wrong.
Thank you for this incredible article. I knew I should listen to my gut regarding my loathing of the Clinton’s but now I know more certainly how decades of their influence and involvement silently made an indelible impression in my mind.
Today’s youth and those of us who finally came of age are blessed with this incredible tool….the internet….and a yearning for honesty. They will know and they will demand better than the package deal being offered in Hillary and Bill. They will research and conclude that past history is of enormous import, thus an allegiance this big, Hillary’s with Kissinger, carries great weight. Rightly so. I would hate to relive those times of the Kissinger years.
Thus, keep putting out this kind of information. They will also conclude that Henry Kissinger is no friend of mankind. His friends are not either.
Bernie’s revulsion over Kissinger is real and he can authentically draw a major distinction from Clinton while only personalizing it on Dr. K. I’m guessing that his attack was mostly a way to push back on Clinton’s experience with an obvious difference in judgement.
We could well see some movement in the older demographics from Clinton to Sanders on this alone. Pundits ignore it or say it was off base (Ifill called it a ‘history lesson’ in her WWIR intro) or will backfire, but having Kissinger as near BFF will disqualify Clinton for anyone with half a memory and a bit of conscience.
As a former submariner, I read an interesting book, titled “Red Star Rogue”, written by Kenneth Sewell, who served on the USS Parche, the most decorated submarine in US History. This account puts in serious doubt the reasons for the thawing of the US-Chinese relationship. The USS Parche was a special operations attack boat for its custom fitted array of equipment designed to support certain covert activities. Parche received 9 PUCs (Presidential Unit Citation, akin to a Navy Cross, but for a unit) and numerous NUCs(akin to Silver Star for unit) and MUCs(Meritorious) for its incredible actions. In any event, it’s predecessor was the USS Halibut, which received two PUCs. The story goes that the Halibut was tasked with secretly surveying a lost Soviet Ballistic Missile Submarine (K-129) off the coast of Hawaii. Basically, two of the most powerful men in the Kremlin Mikhail Suslov and Yuri Andropov), behind Brezhnev’s back, conspired to ignite a nuclear war between the US and China by orchestrating the covert mutiny of K-129 by OSNAZ commandoes. Here’s the synopsis from Amazon:
“Early in 1968 a nuclear-armed Soviet submarine sank in the waters off Hawaii, hundreds of miles closer to American shores than it should have been. Compelling evidence, assembled here for the first time, strongly suggests that the sub, K-129, sank while attempting to fire a nuclear missile, most likely at the naval base at Pearl Harbor.
We now know that the Soviets had lost track of the sub; it had become a rogue. While the Soviets searched in vain for the boat, U.S. intelligence was able to pinpoint the site of the disaster. The new Nixon administration launched a clandestine, half-billion-dollar project to recover the sunken K-129. Contrary to years of deliberately misleading reports, the recovery operation was a great success. With the recovery of the sub, it became clear that the rogue was attempting to mimic a Chinese submarine, almost certainly with the intention of provoking a war between the U.S. and China. This was a carefully planned operation that, had it succeeded, would have had devastating consequences. During the successful recovery effort, the U.S. forged new relationships with the USSR and China. Could the information gleaned from the sunken sub have been a decisive factor shaping the new policies of détente between the Americans and the Soviets, and opening China to the West? And who in the USSR could have planned such a bold and potentially catastrophic operation?
Red Star Rogue reads like something straight out of a Tom Clancy novel, but it is all true. Today our greatest fear is that terrorists may someday acquire a nuclear weapon and use it against us. In fact, they have already tried.”
Howard Hughes was involved, with Hughes Corp building the ships specially designed to retrieve the wreckage. A fake market was created for subsea manganese nodules to publicly justify two ships being built…sparking and investment bubble that quickly faded as people realized it was cheaper to mine the stuff on land.
It’s a fascinating story. From a technical perspective, certainly possible.
First: Sanders could utterly demolish Clinton on Libya : Please take a brief look at this compendium of articles I collated:
https://www.academia.edu/9643345/Libya_blowback_Report_Major_Western_Papers_and_Arab_QIV_2012_v42
Second: He could paint a picture of a happy world such as I lay out here:
http://www.microtopia.org/berniesanders-policy
He should have mentioned in last nights debate that Russia has less than 10% the military spending of NATO if I’m not mistaken.
We do not need to send more hardware to Europe. We need to use our brains.
Regards
(In other words I would like to be on his team!)
My nominee would be Pepe Mujica, former president of Uruguay. Lawrence Wilkerson, Ray McGovern, and Patrick Cockburn
Trump is an ignorant fool that the Plutocrats will never allow in the white house. Why would they if they’ve already decided on the perfect warmongering candidate? With Trump one can just shake your head in amusement that someone so stupid still gets airtime in this day and age. With Hillary it’s different. She has made sure to show the puppet masters the many ways she is willing to bend over for what she wants.
Since the descent which began with the election of the
predatory pompous buffoon Reagan (elected Twice), it is
hard to underestimate the level to which the fake U$A
has been continuously striving.
Trump is someone who has all of the qualities which
all of these frauds have celebrated and he is even louder –
a characteristic that beloved in the fake U$A.
The real motto of the fake U$A is
“Proudly Stupid, Smug, and Loud” or maybe
“Imperialistic Corporate Hubris over Justice.”
Watching Trump pummel Jeb! and Cruz about the head an shoulders is very satisfying.
Listening to the whole “Bush made us safe meme” has been like water torture (or being waterboarded in sewage).
Trump: “Five trillions dollars and thousands of lives lost and we have nothing to show for it! We need to fix our own country.”
Trump is talking some sense. Truth to power even.
@Si1ver10ck. That I must give Trump. Hillary would never have mentioned the bullshit about so-called WMD. She knows too damn well that she supported that lie and was most probably in on it. Jeb Bush is just as useless as his brother. Making America the enemy of peace is what Bush and those puppet masters have been doing for far too fucking long.
I would vote for Trump before I would vote for The Hillary. At least Trump does not have blood on his hands. An idiot yes — but not a psychopath. In fact, Ted Bundy killed fewer people than Hillary.
http://tokyopr.blogspot.nl/2016/02/ted-bundy-for-president.html
Great work Dan on Kissinger issue between Hillary and Bernie. Thanks for your effort.
Two questions for the Sanders supporters, both the true believers and the LOTE voters:
If Hillary is the Democratic nominee, will you vote for her in the general election? Does your answer to the first question depend upon whom the Republicans nominate?
Hillary is the most devious person on Planet Earth. If Democrats nominate her they are doomed.
I would at least agree that there are very few more devious; I think the woman is a practiced and professional pathological liar, and fundamentally evil in terms of her effects on US and world affairs.
But, for whom will you vote if she is the nominee (which I think is the most likely outcome of the rigged Democratic primary process and convention)?
If Hillary is the democratic nominee I will vote Green Party Jill Stein. Bernie and Jill would make a great ticket and a poll said that 50% of Americans are disgusted with the 2 party system. . . . so not a lost vote!
I will not vote for her. I will vote instead for the Republican nominee, whoever that inane imbecile might be. My reasoning is simple. A vote for HRC is a vote for death to the Middle Class by a thousand cuts. If she gets in power, her Wall Street henchmen and Blue Dog Senate proxies will make every effort to destroy Senator Elizabeth Warren’s political future. A vote for the Republican imbecile ensures an even more disenfranchised electorate by 2020, when Warren would be the best option to carry on with a Newer Deal platform. With HRC, the oligarchy will remain safe for many years…up until the point when they are strung up like Mussolini. IMHO.
(What’s “LOTE” voter?) Anyway, as a “Sanders believer” (not a “true believer” as that’s kind of an insultive phrase) …
As a very liberal democrat, I’d vote for Trump before Clinton.
Ever seen “The Manchurian Candidate”? (The 1962 one.) Hillary Clinton IS Angela Lansbury (Mrs. Eleanor Shaw Iselin) and Bernie Sanders is more like Frank Sinatra (Major Bennett Marco).
Clinton would be Obama on overdrive… sure, more liberal policies at home, but fraking way more bombing policies abroad.
The former scares the hell out of “tea-party” folks but will not every other folks if they are polled about the specifics of said “liberal policies”.
The latter… well get ready for another two or three generations of American caused war and destruction against the poorest of populations who will ultimately have evermore, “hard earned” grievances against The West.
LOTE = lesser of two evils.
“As a very liberal democrat, I’d vote for Trump before Clinton.”
I’d say that comment perfectly demonstrates how meaningless the description “liberal” has become.
No and no.
what is a LOTE voter?
Lesser Of Two Evils.
It’s an old, now discredited, voting strategy. GOTE voting, however, is becoming increasingly popular.
@ Doug Salzmann
I will not vote for Hillary Clinton if the is the Democratic Party nominee. It will be Jill Stein, again.
U.S. foreign policy has been disastrous and short-sighted for decades, and a fundamental change is needed. So, who could plausibly make real changes? As far as Clinton versus Sanders – Well, Clinton has more of a record, yes, but it’s mostly a poor record. For example, take another of Clinton’s younger foreign policy advisers who has been making the rounds, Brian Katulis on NPR:
http://www.npr.org/2016/02/12/466584903/russian-escalation-in-syria-narrows-options-to-help-civilians
If you read his statements (and between the lines), he seems to wish that Obama had sent U.S. troops into Syria to help overthrow Assad with the assistance of ‘our Arab partners’ (Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Qatar, Kuwait – all with atrocious human rights records, and even worse, a history of financing ISIS elements in their formative stages, if not right up to the present.) That would just be another Iraq War debacle. If Clinton listens to such advisers, then you can expect a Clinton presidency to push to put U.S. troops in Syria, more ‘partnership’ with the Saudi and Qatar regimes (who clearly played a huge role in financing ISIS, along with Turkey, via oil sales and covert funding), more regional destablization, more refugees flooding Europe – a continuation of the same dumb policy we’re engaged in now. Let’s include starting another Cold War with Russia, too.
Now, there is an alternative approach promoted by some U.S. politicians with more personal experience in the region:
“Gabbard (D-Hawaii), an Iraq-war veteran, said she sees the U.S. repeating “the same mistakes of the past,” even if experts say Assad is a brutal dictator who is killing his own people.
“People said the very same thing about Saddam (Hussein), the very same thing about (Moammar) Gadhafi, the results of those two failed efforts of regime change and the following nation-building have been absolute, not only have they been failures, but they’ve actually worked to strengthen our enemy,” Gabbard said. (CNN)
She’s right – the rational foreign policy objective in the Middle East should be pushing the two sides, i.e. Turkey-Saudi-Qatar-etc. on one hand, and Iran-Syria on the other, to engage in peace talks. Notice this also means pushing Saudi Arabia to stop killing thousands of civilians in Yemen, something neither Clinton nor Sanders discusses. Clinton did help oversee the massive $30 billion arms deal with the Saudis, as well as taking money from them via the Clinton Foundation – for more on that, see International Business Times:
“Under Clinton’s leadership, the State Department approved $165 billion worth of commercial arms sales to 20 nations whose governments have given money to the Clinton Foundation, according to an IBTimes analysis of State Department and foundation data.”
That’s Kissinger all over again, isn’t it? Go back and look at his arms deals with the Shah of Iran, who contributed to the Nixon slush fund. Not much different. Clinton, it seems, would be another disaster on the foreign policy front, and comes with a lot of dirty baggage already.
Supreme court justice Antonin Scalia dies at 79 – reports
http://www.theguardian.com/law/2016/feb/13/supreme-court-justice-antonin-scalia-dead-at-79
So, no criticism of him for 24 hours and no replacement of him by Obama?
No and yes.
The latter “yes” being because McConnell is already signaling they won’t confirm anyone he nominates as suspected, but not that Obama doesn’t have a Constitutional right [and a political one] to nominate whoever he pleases–which he clearly does.
The former “no”, criticize away. His record and personal views are fair game as far as I’m concerned. He’s a public figure and knowingly advanced his personal views on many issues. His positions, judicial philosophy and personal values are all fair game as far as I’m concerned.
this is from Australia so some of the characters may not be familiar but >>
… Even Pricks Are Top blokes when they’re dead
… Chasers War on Everything – The World According to Fox News
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1tKm8rnLnQ
Here’s just a little taste of Justice Scalia’s worldview when it comes to our gay brothers and sisters:
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/03/scalia-worst-things-said-written-about-homosexuality-court
He deserves any and all legitimate criticism of his judicial rulings and personal viewpoints as far as I’m concerned. And I personally don’t think there should be some “civility” or “respect” buffer zone for anyone who chooses to become a public figure and affect public policies. And if there is such a buffer zone I think 24 hours is sufficient.
“Supreme court justice Antonin Scalia dies at 79 – reports”
I was walking through our local park and passed a little kid proudly pedaling his bike in front of his dad, obviously just having graduated from training wheels. I smiled at the kid and said to the father, “He’s got it!”
Dad looked up from his cellphone with sort of a stunned expression and said, “Yeah, he’s got it — and Justice Scalia just died.”
My jaw dropped, of course, and I paused for a moment and then told him, “Uh, I’ll try to be sad.” The thirty-something fellow in executive weekend casual attire just cracked up laughing.
My phones have been ringing non-stop. The “inappropriate” celebratory mood is rapidly approaching that which accompanied Maggie Thatcher’s passing.
This sort of thing always generates a lot of intensely negative energy. It’s a shame it trampled on that little guy’s triumph over his bike.
I found myself feeling…something…when I thought about the court being free of Scalia’s influence, though I’d have preferred a retirement. Relief, maybe? Certainly not celebratory. Perhaps, for a few moments, a little less doomed. :-s
Was there schadenfreude? Sure, some, I’m human and Scalia has caused a lot of misery with his decisions.
Oh, I think Dad went on to cheer the little one’s accomplishment.
I, too, would have preferred retirement, but Nino has been such a horrible jurist . . .
I have warned my celebrating friends that Obama is unlikely to even try to nominate a replacement they’ll like and that, if he does, the chances of confirmation are nonexistent.
On the other hand, it’s February, and even the crazy Republicans in the Senate are unlikely to allow the vacancy to go unfilled for too long, leaving a 4-4 tie on cases they really care about, so we’ll probably at least end up with someone marginally better than Scalia.
Oh, I think Dad went on to cheer the little one’s accomplishment.
Good because that’s one of those moments that only comes once. I still, to this day, remember the feeling of triumph and accomplishment the first time I rode my bike alone.
Scalia was a judicial nightmare, for the most part, capable of saying and doing the most prejudicial and nasty things on the bench. But, as Bmaz noted in a thoughtful piece at Marcy Wheeler’s blog he also had good judicial moments:
https://www.emptywheel.net/2016/02/13/el-nino-scalia/
WRT who Obama will nominate, he’s been going downhill since Sotomayor. Kagan is much too corporate for my taste, so I think you’re accurate in that assessment. Marcy mentioned Sunstein and Srinivasan. The first makes my toes curl – his twitter paean to Scalia yesterday read like a job application to me – the latter I really am unfamiliar with. She thinks he has at least a 50% chance of getting that guy through in a lame duck session, so I probably won’t care for him either. There was also a bit of twitter talk revolving around the possibility of Obama looking to put the first black woman on the court. After seeing Loretta Lynch up close and personal for a while now that doesn’t excite me as much as it might otherwise.
It’s going to be interesting. And the Republicans will be in full-on drama queen mode for sure.
avelna2001
Aside from maybe having his family closer to him at the moment – unless they came on the trip – I’d say Scalia died as close to how he would have wanted as any of us ever gets. Hunting’s not my thing, but I wouldn’t complain if I had a wonderful day working in my garden, a good meal with lots of friends who enjoyed same, then bed without waking up in the morning (that last bit is just my assumption from what we can know in media reports). And yeah, my condolences too, because he was a husband, father and grandfather and I’m guessing he performed those roles with as much vigor as he did his career on the bench.
OTOH Scalia lived almost 80 years and, apparently died in his sleep. It doesn’t seem as if he was having health problems with which he was suffering. There are worse ways to go. Condolences to his family and friends who are grieving.
Some NY Times commenters on Scalia article have asked if Obama appoint himself to the SCOTUS vacancy. This is a very bad idea, as he has proved to be a corporatist, dancing to the tune of the elite who wrecked the economy, and the nascent police-security state of NSA, CIA, FBI and DEA illegal spying on law abiding citizens (the vast majority of us). These and many important issues that potentially will come before the SCOTUS that intimately involved Obama and from which he would have to recuse himself, if he were honest and ethical, or that he would rule on, if he were corrupt and partisan like Thomas and Scalia, both of whom should have been impeached.
These include anti-democratic provisions of the TPP if it is passed by Congress, the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2012, legislation which permits the U.S. military to indefinitely detain people who are alleged to be part of or substantially support Al Qaeda, the Taliban or associated forces engaged in hostilities against the United States, with no notice, lawyer, Habeas Corpus or other legal protections. It is so vague that it can be used against anyone for any reason, with no legal appeal. In effect, it allows the government to “disappear” people as happened in Chile, Argentina, Egypt and many other countries around the world that don’t have the protections of the Bill of Rights that this legislation effectively suspends:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedges_v._Obama
Obama appointing himself would be a move that would further polarize the country. However, since the Republican Congress has already declared that it will obstruct any appointment that Obama may try to make through the usual collaborative process, building upon their anti-democratic use of denying minority voter rights, outright voter fraud and PAC paid for candidates, then Obama would be best advised to make an immediate recess appointment this week of a qualified jurist. I would suggest Lawrence Lessig as the right and eminently qualified candidate to bring balance, and economic justice back to the citizens of our country.
My fear is that Obama has shown so little actual spine during his tenure, that he will let the Republicans bully him into delaying the appointment showdown, or pick a “compromise” candidate to placate the insane right wing Congress. We got a demonstration of their character in the CBS debates last night, and know everything we need to know about their ability to pick a suitable and respectful replacement for Scalia.
I am not well-versed on any rules/regulations on SC appointments but I highly doubt this scenario will come to pass. There is no precedent for a sitting President to appoint himself and if he did go there that is, for sure, the one scene that I can definitely see hardening the Senate for the remainder of his term (not that they aren’t already sitting around like lumps of granite, but you get my drift).
There is precedent for a former President serving as a justice. William Howard Taft was appointed by President Warren G. Harding and served for 9 years. If a dem gets elected, the possibility of Obama getting nominated following his presidency exists, but I doubt that would have any chance of passing the Senate no matter it’s makeup following the general election. The animosity toward him is just too high.
Totally agree. I’m not hopeful that Obama will do a very good appointment though. The “moderates” turn out to be right wing too much these days.
I agree that appointing yourself smacks of nepotism. But President Obama could appoint Bill Clinton to fill the current vacancy. Then when Hillary Clinton is elected, she could appoint Obama to the next vacancy.
Hillary Clinton is completely out of touch, and will be a disastrous president when it comes to American foreign policy.
Hillary Surprised So Many Americans Recall Kissinger a War Criminal
http://www.theniladmirari.com/2016/02/democratic-presidential-candidate-secretary-of-state-hillary-clinton-surprised-so-many-americans-remember-friend-counselor-henry-kissinger-war-criminal-responsible-for-cambodia-genocide.html
John Lewis clarifies comments on Bernie Sanders
http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/john-lewis-clarifies-comments-bernie-sanders
Seems to me that he should have made those clarifications when he initially made the statements because he clearly left the (intentional?) impression that he didn’t believe that Sanders participated in the movement in any meaningful way whereas the Clintons were significant participants. Methinks he’s a day late and a dollar short.
None of us are infallible, but I think it highly unlikely that someone of Lewis’ stature, who has been in government as long as he has and who has had the history of long involvement with groups, organizations and movements that he has, would be unaware of the implications/insinuations inherent to what he said, in the manner and place he was saying it.
Bingo….he did indeed
Henry Kissinger is the first American to realize that there are basically two types of al-Muslims.
The first types of al-Muslims are the bad al’s who are our enemies.
The second types of al-Muslims are the worse al’s who are our friends.
This kind of intimate knowledge of al-Muslims is what Bernie Sanders has, which is why he supports Israel who share the same sentiments.
Both Sanders and Elizabeth Warren have parroted the Netanyahu line on Gaza the past year, and gotten severe push back from their constituents at town hall meetings (videos on YouTube) and many letters from me (which they ignore and don’t respond to). We worship and idolize our politicians far too much–better to start off cynical and skeptical with them, and to not be disappointed when the truth comes out. Disclosure: I voted for both of them, as a long time resident of VT, and recent resident of MA.
The sad fact is that Israel and their US front orgs, like AIPAC, have a stranglehold on Congress and our democracy, that chokes the life out of them more than the NRA. I have read that if a Senator or House member openly criticizes Israel for its crimes, they are effectively totally shunned and will have no other member of Congress to work with. I don’t doubt this.
It is therefore left to brave people like former President Carter, author Max Blumenthal and the BDS movement to expose the Israeli government/IDF for the fascists they are. That said, there are many citizens in Israel who are fighting for justice for Palestinians. Hillary Clinton, if elected, will support declaring pro BDS movement speech, as “hate speech”, even as it is protected 1st Amendment speech. Just another reason for thinking progressives/liberals to NOT vote for her. You too ladies.
Mona is correct in her assessment that John Lewis’ was wrong to dismiss Sanders’ civil rights record and right to walk it back.
There can be no question about Sanders’ lifelong and passionate commitment to civil rights.
However, I find that, and his many other positive attributes insufficient to justify supporting him. Supporting the Empire, its wars and its MIC is a fatal flaw.
Think of the president who did more than any other to advance the cause of civil rights in the US: Lyndon Johnson. Who believes that those extraordinarily important achievements permit overlooking his management of the war on Vietnam, with 2-3 million Vietnamese fatalities and 58,000 dead Americans?
So who should we support? Not a rhetorical question, because we’re left with Hillary, who palled around with a monster like Henry Kissinger. The GOP field is a field of poison oak. I suppose if we come to this by a process of subtraction, we come to Dr. Jill Stein.
Anybody else?
Hi, coram.
Stein will likely get my vote.
I’d rather vote for a candidate who I’m confident won’t promote and conduct murderous aggression, even if s/he has little or no chance of election. The other honorable choice, I believe, is withholding your vote.
We must never forget that the system is rigged, that we live in an oligarchy and that if voting changed anything, they’d make it illegal. It’s a very sad and depressing — nay, outrageous — reality, but it’s our reality nonetheless.
@ Doug Salzmann
That’s a fair position to take. If the “right to vote” means anything it means the “right” to vote your conscience. Nobody is entitled to anyone’s “solidarity” or to incorporate “strategic voting” into their personal calculus about who to vote for or not.
I voted for Jill Stein in 2012. And I’ll be voting for Bernie Sanders this time around warts, flaws and all for the reasons I’ve stated.
That’s also a fair statement but I think one that elides the reality of the situation. The legitimacy of the sham of “democracy” or “representative government” in this nation depends upon the idea that elections can make a difference one way or another. If anyone or any body were to make voting illegal, the game would be up and the oligarchs and political class would not survive but through force. And then all bets would be off about what happens next. They’ve restricted the franchise in many states in ways that is skirting the line. If some factions push that line much further it would create a bigger conflict than they could even envision.
“If anyone or any body were to make voting illegal, the game would be up and the oligarchs and political class would not survive but through force.”
That’s true, but they don’t have to make voting illegal when they’ve so thoroughly made it irrelevant. The reference to potential illegality was, of course, a hat tip to Mark Twain and Emma Goldman.
“If some factions push that line much further it would create a bigger conflict than they could even envision.”
I’m really not certain that’s true. I would wish that it is, but my experience of the American character is that it is deeply conformist and mostly comfortably tolerant of authoritarianism. Those who aren’t tend either to turn their frustrations on their own communities (poor blacks, whites and Hispanics) or to gather in right-wing gun cults or criminal gangs.
” If anyone or any body were to make voting illegal, the game would be up and the oligarchs and political class would not survive but through force.”
But there are people making voting illegal! By making a great many people “illegal to vote”, as http://www.gregpalast.com/ Greg Palast has been — trying to — informing us for years!
When in a dilemma there is absolutely no doubt that you should support Donald Trump. Blessed is he who sits on a pin for he shall rise again.
Nobody’ going to pay a bit of attention to Jill Stein. I’m supporting Bernie because he’s moving the Overton window back to the left. Reagan pulled it to the far right and the Democratic party, led by the Clintons, went along with them.
A candidate like Jill Stein has no chance until the terms of the discussion change. Who the media is compelled to take seriously matters. If people like Doug are right that the system is irretrievably broken, all we will do is lose, and that happens either way.
I’m not ready to tell my grandsons’ generation that all is hopeless. I won’t do that. Not while we have a candidate — and the movement behind him –like Sanders. It could be the start of long-overdue, urgently needed change.
Or not. We can only try.
Most likely, Mona, although it’s sometimes tempting when you have an unspoiled alternative. Norman Thomas, say, or Eugene V. Debs before that.
Overton window? This election’s more like an Ames window. Or an Ames room, and we’re stuck inside.
“If people like Doug are right that the system is irretrievably broken, all we will do is lose, and that happens either way.”
I’m really quite certain that the system is irretrievably broken at all levels beyond the local, and we have been losing, in terms of domestic policy, at least since Nixon. Presidents simply don’t have the power or authority, in our system, to effect much progressive change in that domain, even those who might want to. There have been notable exceptions, e.g., FDR & LBJ, but the change they were able to accomplish has, in both cases, been steadily rolled back and undermined at virtually every turn: labor in America has been largely a spent force for decades and blacks, migrants and the poor in general are better off only in theory (if that).
And our foreign policy of aggression, expansion of de facto empire and military adventurism has continued with barely a pause or a hiccup. It is fully bipartisan and to challenge it is an unforgivable sin in American culture. Our troops are “heroes” — every last one of them, including the drone operators — and to suggest otherwise, even to hint that they might sometimes be, instead, dupes and cannon fodder for the 0.1% is to risk life, limb, or at least employability. Americans love wars.
“I’m not ready to tell my grandsons’ generation that all is hopeless.”
I understand that hope and optimism are natural tendencies of humans. For all but a brief period of our long development as a species, they were adaptive, increasing the chances that the clan or tribe would survive or thrive. But the growth of our population, along with increased consumption and advances in technology have resulted in the creation of a juggernaut that is destroying the biosphere we depend upon for life itself. The people with the power to change that trend (if it’s not too late for anyone to alter course) have no intention or motivation to do so and have every reason to deny or ignore the reality. Those of us who have, for at least 50 years, recognized the fundamental changes that must be made in order to avert disaster have been ignored, mocked, attacked, steamrolled and more, while the juggernaut keeps growing and picking up speed.
If you want hope for your grandsons, focus it on local progressive development and reforms that support equity and sustainability. That’s the only place we have any meaningful power or leverage. Government at the state and national levels is entirely in the control of the oligarchs and that’s not going to change unless and until the system breaks down — manner, means and timing unknown, but eventually it must.
Optimism has become maladaptive. To believe that the “Big System” can be reformed from within or by incremental change is to increase the likelihood of the already almost-certain catastrophe.
And to vote for the lesser evil is especially pointless, as well as a moral error.
Isn’t TTIP designed to remove that ability from local governments ?
That you don’t realize that the system is irretrievably broken, means you are wrong about many things, sad to say….
The system can only be fixed… and if it can be fixed (then it is not “irretrievably broken”) by a “Revolution”. And we all know who has that as a slogan. But Sanders will, eventually, be hit by a serious “ton of bricks” in the form of really bad slander… If you think “Swift Boating” was bad, “Sanders Slanders” will dismay you to no end.
The “System” is irretievably CORRUPT, and will, will, will, will ROCK YOU… to your core come 2017 if you think it not.
John Lewis walked back his nasty dismissal of Bernie Sanders’ civil rights record. Truth and fairness matter.
I greatly respect Steven Salaita. He’s not voting for Bernie Sanders, and says why here. Excerpt:
My moral calculus is that what Sanders does bring to the political table — the way he changes the terms of the debate in critically important areas — justifies supporting him. But I respect Salaita’s reasons for weighing matters differently. He’s not lying or distorting Sanders’ record; he’s rejecting Bernie’s candidacy based on truth.
Okay. And what have you got to say about Hillary’s support for Israel?
“… the way he changes the terms of the debate in critically important areas …”
Well stated!
I have been struggling to find a brief description for how I feel about him, and your summary does exactly that.
Yeah. “Candidate Worshipers” like the Mona are inherently blind… to their candidate’s flaws and to their own irrational justifications of their candidate.
I’ll vote for Sanders, as the LOTE candidate (thanks avelna2001). *But he may, if he gets to be a candidate, be the real, real deal.*
He will though, mark my words, be “scandalized” by certain bought off pundits if he gets close to being the Democratic Candidate. The country will have never seen (heard) such abomination to come since Preston Brooks whacked Charles Sumner with a cane on the Senate floor.
That literally made me LOL. I’m constitutionally incapable of “candidate worship,” or at least have been since age 30. Given that I’ve been posting critiques of Bernie Sanders that I agree with, you have very peculiar metrics for determining what constitutes “worship.”
“… irrational justifications of their candidate …”
I understand you may be angry – fine!
However, for the record, none of the Sanders supporters I personally know could be considered “irrational”. And, none of the people I speak with about their support for Sanders consider Sanders to be without flaws.
Perhaps your statement is more a product of your own irrational thoughts?
Mrs. Clinton is the “more war candidate”. That is enough for me not to vote for her.
This, by Charles Davis, is what a reasonable and reasoned, fact-based critique of Bernie Sanders looks like. An excerpt:
That is all, sadly, true.
Sorry. Still not the Greater Evil.
One thing that Bernie Sanders has made plain is that he considers war a last resort, only after everything else has been tried. And he’s said several times that he is not a fan of regime change. I’ll take that anyway over hawkish, never-saw-a-regime-change-she-didn’t-like Hillary.
“And he’s said several times that he is not a fan of regime change.”
Well, he has said that, several times, but he’s also said:
And an example of a Sanders vote for regime change:
He’s generally not a fan if militarily-imposed regime change, no. I’m voting for him, but I also think the truth of his record matters. As long as it *is* the truth and not gross distortions from anarchists and others who despise anyone who supports any candidate, including Bernie.
“anarchists”? Really? Are you really using “anarchists” as a slur and/or insult? In the year 2016?
#FAIL
Utter failure, as you know not the term.
(And I am violating my “20 minutes” rule — which is to never spend more than twenty minutes reading comments as it can lead to brain rot . You do not contribute anything real or logical to any debates here — as few can be so called. You just expose *yourself*.)
Bye.
No, Greg. And it’s now entirely clear you know very little of my views and positions. First you have me down as a candidate “worshiper,” and now this.
Doug has written approvingly of anarchism, and I take it that he identifies as an anarchist. If so, he’s not the first anarchist to be active in Glenn Greenwald’s comments, and likely not in Froomkin’s either.
So, when I cited anarchists, Greg, I meant to reference actual anarchists. Not some abstracted slur.
Finally, I’m a huge fan of Emma Goldman, and used a picture of her as my avatar at several sites. (Tho I am not myself an anarchist.) I suggest, Greg, that before you again characterize me or my words, that you familiarize yourself better with them.
“And he’s said several times that he is not a fan of regime change.”
My original response to this is trapped in multi-link limbo.
Yes, Sanders has said he’s not a fan of regime change.
He’s also said he supports the overthrow of Assad; stayed silent when the US engineered a coup to overthrow the elected president of Ukraine and then called for punitive sanctions against Russia for its response; and voted in 1998 “to remove the Saddam Hussein regime from power in Iraq and to replace it with a democratic government.”
It’s a little hard to believe his contention that he’s not a fan of regime change when he has repeatedly supported it.
Regime change is often a fantastic idea. The U.S. needs such a change.
The issue is who and how.
At least as important is: “By whose agency?”
If the answer is by anyone other than the subjects of the regime, on their own motion and at their own direction, it’s an act of aggression. Acts of aggression cloaked as uprisings of “freedom fighters” are the hallmark of US policy and history, except for the cases in which we simply underwrite coups or invade openly.
Brilliant and astute article—first class writing and an (all important) History Lesson of immense magnitude! I thank you—and the oppressed and murdered ones of this Planet–thank you for your service to Truth—with deep respect, E. Jackson Crook
What’s the point of going into the white house and not being hell bent on destruction and turning populations into refugees?
Scenario 1: There is nothing to do between campaign advertising and reality! What is in store is pre-conceived by MIC regardless of what everyone else brags.
The whole world have witnessed how Mr Hope turned out to be Mr Scoundrel. And who could imagine a rock-star welcome in Germany for Bush III?
Scenario 2: Trying to be smart ass, smart ass will be no more. Bullets are very very very cheap and Kennedy learnt the lesson well.
More like the power of the One Ring. No matter how well-intentioned, once you walk into that Oval Office, and you find that ring on your desk, next to the red phone and the appointments calendar, it would tempt.
“The job of journalists…is trying to be responsible when telling their viewers and readers what government officials are saying and to assess whether there is evidence for it” Glenn Greenwald
NOT a single TI article assesses Sanders proposed economic and social policies. The site has become an anti Clinton propaganda for the last 15 days!
“John Kasich and the Clintons Collaborated on Law That Helped Double Extreme Poverty” Feb 13, 2016
“John Kasich and the Clintons Collaborated on Law That Helped Double Extreme Poverty” Feb 13, 2016
“Henry Kissinger’s War Crimes Are Central to the Divide Between Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders” Feb 12, 2016
“Hillary Clinton’s Congressional Black Caucus PAC Endorsement Approved by Board Awash in Lobbyists” Feb 11, 2016
“Lobbyists, Consultants Fret Over Bernie Sanders Victory” Feb 10, 2016
“Why Goldman CEO Lloyd Blankfein Called Bernie Sanders “Dangerous” Feb 8, 2016
“Top Hillary Clinton Advisers and Fundraisers Lobbied Against Obamacare and Dodd-Frank” Feb 8, 2016
“Here’s What Hillary Clinton’s Paid Speaking Contract Looks Like” Feb 5, 2016
“Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders Brawl Over His “Insinuation” That She’s Corrupt” Feb 5, 2016
“Hillary Clinton Won’t Say if She’ll Release Transcripts of Goldman Sachs Speeches” Feb 4, 2016
“Insiders Predicted That Bernie Sanders Would Be No Threat to Hillary Clinton” Feb 2, 2016
“Top Hillary Clinton PAC Donation Amounts to 222,000 Bernie Sanders Donations” Feb 1, 2016
“The “Bernie Bros” Narrative: a Cheap Campaign Tactic Masquerading as Journalism and Social Activism” Jan 31, 2016
What’s your point? Greenwald has also said on more than one occasion that the “neutral journalist” is a myth.
“What’s your point?”
I was going to say the same thing to this very same posting on the welfare article.
Though I agree that the Clinton family should not run this country (especially for the connection with Kissinger) but Glenn Greenwald is one of the biggest liars in todays online “journalism” (reminder, he is not a journalist).
A five year old kid with a brain would get my point: TI journalists cannot be trusted as they do not follow their own principles.
Having a 5 year-old target audience is bound to frustrate and disappoint.
Try addressing adolescents and if you receive a favorable response, well, you are then on your way to addressing adults.
Yes, because the establishment media is awash in anti-Clinton, pro-Sanders propaganda. Why can’t TI be risky and do something really different?
That is another idiotic comment. Whether you decide to apply your own principle as a journalist should depend on what the “establishment media” decides to do. Should TI be a branch of the Democratic Party because Fox News is a branch of the Republican Party?
They say you can judge character by the friends you keep and this glaring observation says much of what a Clinton Presidency would look like. Unfortunately, she has fooled millions of people but Bernie Sanders is the only candidate worthy of a vote. Kissinger should have been tried at the Hague a long time ago and it is suggested to read this article carefully and do the research on who Hillary represents.
I think it is disingenuous to call Sanders a ‘non-interventionist’.
It’s either disingenuous, extremely ignorant, or simply a lie. His voting record and speaking history make it entirely clear that he’s become a standard-issue liberal interventionist through the process of assimilation into the Establishment Borg, although he has been more clever than many at muddying the waters.
No, he’s not “standard issue.” He is an interventionist. But he’s not “muddying” any waters. He has never tried to hide his views and votes.
He really is much less interventionist than Hillary or Kissinger.
He’s just not good enough.
Declaring you’ve ripped the blinders off is just childish.
Don’t you have some books to color?
As I was driving home last night tired from a long day’s work I yawned and turned on NPR. The usual pundits David Brooks et al were talking about Thursday night’s debate. The conversation suddenly piqued my interest when they brought up Bernie’s “Kissinger” commentary. Intently ready to hear praise from talking heads I could not believe how passé and dismissive these Public Radio voices were. Even a little giggling? “Old history” they implied. “Not really relevant” to the issues of the present. Suddenly I was speeding at 80 mph and shouting at
the radio…….. WIDE AWAKE. Bernie = integrity Hillary/Kissinger = ?
Has anyone explored the role of Victoria Nuland and Geoffrey Pyatt, an Assistant Secretary of State and Ambassador to the Ukraine respectively, for their inappropriate involvement in the months long demonstrations in Kiev that brought down a duly elected government. Their personal visits to the demonstrators, bringing doughnuts, was clearly an endorsement. Can anyone imagine the American reaction to a Chinese diplomat visiting an Occupy Wall Street encampment. Are there neocons in the State Department that President Obama cannot or will not expel?
“Has anyone explored the role of Victoria Nuland and Geoffrey Pyatt, an Assistant Secretary of State and Ambassador to the Ukraine respectively, for their inappropriate involvement in the months long demonstrations in Kiev that brought down a duly elected government.”
Certainly not Senator Sanders. When Russia reacted to the US-sponsored coup by reintegrating Crimea and some of the eastern Ukrainians rose up in rebellion at the overthrow of a president they overwhelmingly supported, Bernie told Bill O’Reilly on Fox News:
“The entire world has got to stand up to Putin. We’ve got to deal with sanctions, we’ve got to deal with freezing assets,”
[. . .]
“You’ve got to totally isolate them politically. You’ve got to totally isolate them economically… You freeze assets that the Russian government has all over the world… International corporations have huge investments in Russia, you could pull them out…”
Proposals of this kind are, effectively, calls for acts of war. There is a long history establishing the reality of this. For instance, when the US government was working to maneuver a reluctant nation into WWII, it established crippling trade sanctions against Japan. Henry Simpson, then Secretary of War, later wrote in his personal diary, “The question was how we should maneuver [the Japanese] into the position of firing the first shot.”
I couldn’t believe Sanders’ forthright comments about Kissinger. I have always viewed Kissinger as being behind all the evil that went wrong in Central America. I worked with Central American refugees in the 1980s and saw the effects of his deadly policies with criminal dictators in El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras. I saw his shadow behind the Contras in Nicaragua. I am horrified to see him at the table now, in the peace talks among the various groups in Syria. I wonder if enough destruction and killing has happened there to satisfy him, or is he in for another round. To clear the way, that is, for the Zionists to have full control of the whole area: Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Yemen, so that ole buddy U.S.A. and the Saudis can just go in there and attack Iran when they feel the time is right.
No. I don’t believe Sanders is a Zionist. The goal of all Zionists is to destroy all around them and control the governments of every strong nation by coercion, bribery and infiltration. Politicians and Clinton: worship Kissinger, AIPAC= will have the billions to buy your elections.
I heard the lower applause given to Sanders when he spoke about Kissinger and the louder applause given to Clinton. This is because Zionist Kissinger and Israel have always been the elephant in the room. That is one topic nobody wants to mention. I almost got attacked by a strange woman when she overheard me say to a friend that I couldn’t stay in Hebron (al-Khalil) in the Occupied Territories of Palestine when I visited there because the sight of all the abuse and fear the Zionist Israelis inflicted on the Palestinians made me ill.
If there ever was a David, and I don’t think there was, It would now be Sanders. The Goliath would be the Zionists in Washington and the Occupied Territories of Palestine.
I watched the debate on my computer. When Sanders rightfully opened up the door about who Clinton listens to on foreign policy I was shouting “yee haw..Go Bernie” He publicly announced to listeners and to the world what many all ready know that the U.S. has had an aggressive, deadly to millions foreign policy that matches up with some of the most brutal genocides on the planet. He said it out loud and named a name Henry ( I believe he is a psychopath) Kissenger. Then Clinton’s association.
While the “media establishment” will not touch the catastrophic results of Obama and Clinton’s decisions to continue with the PNAC’s blueprint for the middle east. We can find plenty of articles on line about the devastating role Clinton’s push for arming unknown rebels in Syria have had…how her push to overthrow Gaddafi has ended up in many ways a blood bath. For what? Just as Iraq has. Hundreds of thousands dead, injured, millions of refugees and all we hear Obama and Clinton repeat is “Assad must go, Assad must go”
Clinton, Albright, Kissenger, the Bush WMD “pack of lies” war team do not give a rats ass about the millions who perish as a direct consequence of our foreign policy. I believe Sanders does. I really believe this.
He has not only taped into how the vast majority of the American public are pissed off about how Wall Street Banksters can not only access the U.S. Fed (tax payers money) with little to no effort but that they knew they could and could literally bank on it and against it all at the same time and walk out with cumulatively trillions ahead. Paying their DOJ required fines with their profits from their scam. People are pissed off and Bernie taps right into that reservoir of anger and disgust….”the system is rigged” He provides and option for still hoping a more just financial system could rise out of the economic dust from the crisis. Which we know Bill Clinton helped birth by signing the repeal of Glass Steagall.
What I also believe Bernie has taped into without naming it is a national (I believe universal belief) belief that there really should be a level playing field when it comes to health care, fair pay, equity in education, revamping the prison system etc etc. Bernie believes this and the public can feel his authenticity as well as look at his voting record. Bernie speaks to the “angels of our better nature”
Clinton is a product of the system, owned by Wall Street because that is one of the ways she has become a multi millionaire. She is clearly also a deadly warmonger with no conscience what so ever. Terrifying really. Was so disappointed in Obama when he named her Secretary of State. She confirmed her aggressive, deadly neocon agenda in Libya and Syria.
Woodruf and Ifill did demonstrate their “media establishment” credentials when they allowed Hillary to skate right by Ifill’s softball question about her connections to Wall Street. Clinton immediately flipped the script and went over to who owned Rubio, Cruz etc. Total diversion although they all seem to be in the same boat on Super Pac’s, Ifill and Woodruf let her skate. They did not ask her tough questions about the results of her foreign policy decisions. While we know she would have turned and blamed Assad for all of the death, destruction and refugee situation on Assad but those of us who read and listen past the “media establishment” know that the Clinton/CIA arming of rebels only fueled the death and destruction and opened up more ungoverned territory for Iraq (Clinton and Bush’s war team) birthed IS. What a human catastrophe. Have to wonder if Clinton some type of socio psychopath…She never demonstrates any remorse about the death of innocent children, women, men killed in Iraq, Libya, Syria. Not an ounce of remorse or sense of accountability for her decisions. Do psycho/socio paths work collectively? We know they do.
What is up with Clinton’s claim that she initiated the original talks with Iran. Hell in the run up to the 2008 campaign, during and after all I ever heard her do is repeat the neocons unsubstantiated claims about Iran. Over and over on the msm. Then just a few months before the Iran deal went through she jumped on board with her finger to the wind (Iraq) again. What is up with that claim?
Sanders foreign policy team would start with Hillary and Flynt Mann Leverett and Charles Freeman at the top of the list. I have so much respect and admiration for the Levertt’s. Willingness to quit the Bush administration because they disagreed with the invasion of Iraq. Incredible efforts to inform the public about the history of our relationship with Iran and what was really going on. They were right about Iraq (Ritter and many others too before the invasion), they were right about Libya, Syria. Clinton and the rest of the neocon team have been deadly wrong about all of the above and do not give a rats ass about all those who have perished as a consequence.
Terribly shameful and so sad.
Go Bernie!
“While the “media establishment” will not touch the catastrophic results of Obama and Clinton’s decisions to continue with the PNAC’s blueprint for the middle east.”
Including this very site – too ‘conspiratorial’…
You do realize that Sanders too is calling for the ousting of Assad, right? He just hopes it can be accomplished by ‘democratic’ means, which has an interesting meaning in Washington. And if not, it wouldn’t be the first time the Bern has supported war and the MIC. Don’t drown in the hopium.
“[Sanders] just hopes it can be accomplished by ‘democratic’ means . . .”
Nah. He fully supports the military efforts now in progress.
And lately, he’s been pushing for more support for the Saudis and their recent moves toward dispatching ground troops to Syria. He usually tries to say “ISIS” as many times as possible when he talks about this (as, bizarrely, he also does when questioned about Israeli brutality in Gaza), but he’s fully in line with the MIC’s war against Assad.
Assad offered a power sharing deal five years ago that middle east experts Hillary and Flynt Mann Leverett wrote about.at their very well informed website Going to Tehran. They were also on Al Jazeera, Real eews and other outlets with enough integrity to share alternative views rather than promote Clinton and the neocons violent agenda in the middle east.
While Sanders is not everything many of us would like on foreign policy is far better than blood thirsty (she has proved this) warmongering Clinton. Far better….
Why you should vote for Evil
As Mr. Froomkin asserts, it’s rare for candidates to stake out their positions so clearly, one embracing evil (embodied by Mr. Kissinger), and the other rejecting it.
I start from the premise that the ultimate goal is to defeat evil. If you wish evil to triumph, simply do the opposite of what I recommend. If you are an academic type, who believes that good and evil will always co-exist and that human actions are meaningless, please stop reading, since obviously you have no interest in politics.
Evil always attempts to hide itself behind an appealing exterior. Washington is unquestionably evil, and therefore is much more effective when the President, who is its face to the world, is a good person. Placing an evil person in charge strips away the veil and allows people to see Washington as it really is. Recognizing evil is a precondition to combating it. The well known argument is that moderating a system which is inherently corrupt merely enables its continued existence. The solution to slavery was not to pass laws requiring slave owners to moderate their behavior – it was necessary to abolish the system completely.
Secondly, evil always tends to excess and ends up destroying itself. The best way to facilitate that destruction is to give it everything it wants. Pick examples of the most evil regimes in history – how long did they last?
So the solution, in any political contest, is to choose the Greater of Two Evils (or if you are so lucky as to be given the choice, evil over good). This takes discipline. But at some point, the evil will be obvious to everybody and its defeat will be assured.
For those who think Sanders is too focused on economic issues:
https://goo.gl/dxITYv
Mona
“…….I don’t find Khalek persuasive as to whether Bernie is a Zionist; he is. But it’s interesting that she isn’t ruling him out as possibly pretty good on the issue of Israel-Palestine……”
So by your very own definition, Bernie Sanders is a fascist and a racist. The Intercept is campaigning on behalf of a fascist? Something wrong with that picture, Mona? Hopefully Mona, you can finally see exactly why your views on Zionists (and by extension, Zionism) are really fucking idiotic.
Yes, what’s wrong is Bernie’s Zionism. Moreover, Doug gets some things right — Bernie is very militaristic in some areas, such as Syria and ISIS.
Bernie, as our own Gator once did, tries to square a moral circle in upholding the “right” of Israel to exist as it currently does. It’s now absolutely proto-fascist. That’s almost inevitable in a country founded an ethno-religious nationalism.
You gotta love the Intercept, Mona. They write articles opposing the fascist in Ukraine and support a “fascist” for President in the US. Intercept journalists accuse (white) Americans perpetually of racism – then support a racist for President. Again Mona, your views are absurd.
“…….Bernie, as our own Gator once did, tries to square a moral circle in upholding the “right” of Israel to exist as it currently does…….”
Does the Intercept own Gator? When you say “exist as it currently does”, you are really saying as a Jewish majority state so “currently” really means (to you and the BDS campaign) since the Jewish majority state was founded officially in 1948.
Your views are radical, ridiculous and pathetic all at the same time – and always chalk full of lies used for political reasons.
Well, if you ask a stupid question … mutter, mutter.
First of all dan, you’d have to be more wonkish than Glenn Greenwald (there’s a rumor he works here?) to think Henry Kissinger is the Great-Voter-Divide betwixt Hillary and Bernie.
*I’ve asked my two 20 something girls about it … one thought Kissinger was a General in WWII and the other thought he had something to do with the UN.
However, they Do know all about Dick ‘in a pigs eye’ Cheney, gruesome torture, indefinite detention, the Iraq War, GWOT, etc., etc., (unfortunately, it’s indelibly seared in their little brains) … and, by extension, Clinton and Obama’s Official (&mostly successful efforts thus far) to sweep all that under the rug ‘for the good of the country’ … and everything.
ps. at this point, I think it’s fair to say they’re both staunch Bernie … feminists.
I believe he’s on temporary leave while The Intercept attempts to confirm whether there is such a person as Edward Snowden.
As usual, I could have saved them the trouble.
*cuz Ed is real alright. He’s dating one of Myrna Minkoffs’ pole-dancing cousins … once removed.
we loss tush wen tehm mooved too Hoorwahi.
i heer tehy ben toorink Moskcow an havink tee wiht Vladhemeer Pootin.
>”i heer tehy ben toorink Moskcow an havink tee wiht Vladhemeer Pootin.”
Dear cousin Mabel,
Just to catch you up; The Purple Cow restaurant closed its doors and mooved to Moskcow when Pootin granted them diplomatic immunity some time ago, now.
all the best ~ hi to the kinfolk
ZING!
He was Juan’s professional reference, wasn’t he?
Guys, have you ever heard of the thing called a “vacation?” Even Glenn must have down time.
Maybe. What if after Thompson, The Intercept tried to institute stricter editorial controls? Might be a source of friction. The survival of any institution depends on crushing the freedom of the individual. I’m not sure if Mr. Greenwald accepts this.
Well, without strict oversight, feelings may be bruised by scrupulous journalism. If you cannot feel good about your leaders and their deeds, what do you have left? Editorial control is necessary to preserve continuity, homogeneity, and, in the end, our freedoms.
For instance, when editorial control was introduced at The Intercept, two stellar book reviews provided forward-looking messages for two unflattering incidents. We have the story, with proof now, that the abuses at Abu Graib were the result “of a few bad apples” and we also have similar proof the “NSA spying is legal”. When you have books written by a former lawyer and a former soldier, well, this is what editorial control is all about.
It is just silly to assume there are ulterior motives to oversight.
I like to think he’s taking a break from his busy, workaholic schedule to spend some much needed quality time with his significant other…
You must have very little regard for the intelligence and humanity of your “two 20 something little girls”. And by extension you also must have little regard for women in general, don’t you? especially Bernie …feminists? could you explain if that is not a fair assessment? Well, you must share some of that stupidity then, it is your own blood after all. Smells like you go for the brain dead trumpers.
Actually, josey, I was a bit shocked my girls knew so little about Henry ‘new world order’ Kissinger and still have $50K in student debt so many years after their graduation … and Obama’s inauguration!?
Other than that … mutter, mutter.
This is why Hillary can’t garner the youth vote and can’t garner women’s votes either. Because Kissinger killed millions of men, women and children. Even though many of them don’t know who Kissinger was (yet), that kind of sick, twisted dirtiness won’t wash off in a shower, and she’s got it all over her. And in a way, that might be all you need to know.
Henry Kissinger is a war- and human rights criminal, pure & simple. If the U.S. didn’t rule the world, he’d have been tried and convicted a long time ago.
Not to forget Kissinger’s 1957 book, Nuclear Weapons and Foreign Policy, and his early briefings with Richard Nixon, in which he seemed to be advocating “limited” nuclear war as an option.
https://www.armscontrol.org/act/2006_01-02/JANFEB-LookingBack
So he was a Dr. Strangelove on top of his other infamies. Hawkish establishment indeed.
Yes, he actually tried to get Nixon to nuke Vietnam. That’s when Nixon said that the million anti-war demonstrators outside the White House would be inside if he did what Kissinger wanted.
It’s unfair to mention Suharto without mentioning the US-engineered overthrow of Sukarno and the slaughter of up to a million people in Indonesia in the mid-60s. And it’s not right to let off Johnson administration criminals such as Bill Moyers, who served as a director of the capitalist-imperialist think tank the CFR from 1967-1974.
See:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2008/jan/28/indonesia.world
This comment by Froomkin borders on delusional:
Bernie Sanders says he would use drones to fight terror as president
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/oct/11/bernie-sanders-drones-counter-terror
Do you need links to the Intercept’s pieces on drone terrorism, Dan?
Betcha he’d use (gasp) guns to fight terrorism as well.
Sanders’ supporters must be shaken out of their stupor; Sanders is no peacenik. He’s repeatedly reassured the US ruling class that he’s on board with Washington’s illegal aggression in the Greater Middle East, in Ukraine, in Africa, and that he’s on board with US-NATO aggression toward Russia, and will not condemn or obstruct the bipartisan drive to war against China.
US think tank outlines master plan for war with China
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2016/01/26/pers-j26.html
Thank you. Sanders has repeatedly shown his support for intervention in Syria, as well as other global hotspots. I personally am skeptical of his positions and commitment to working class Americans.
Sanders’s foreign policy is too hawkish for me (and he’s also far too focused on financial issues instead of the more important ones like the environment, civil rights, and humans rights — not saying he’s on the wrong side, just prioritizes economics far too much). But that said, he’d be light years better than Clinton on this issue. YOU’re the one who’s delusional if you can’t see the clear difference. Sanders would not have invaded and finished the destruction of Iraq, while Clinton would have, for example.
“But that said, he’d be light years better than Clinton on this issue.”
Another vote for the Lesser of Two Baby Bombers?
Another vote for the Lesser of Two Baby Bombers?
I addressed this way down yonder in the thread. In the interest of having it see the light of day, and because I value this discussion with you, I’m going to bring it here for your consideration:
I honestly don’t know how you can even consider such a thing, much less attempt to justify it, as almost all here are doing (except for the ones trying to explain it away or deny it). If your principles don’t require drawing a line there, just what sort of principles are they?
As you probably know from being a long term commenter in these threads, my career is in the medical field where the general consensus has long been “do no harm”. As a researcher, however, I also know that in order to find new ways to save the lives of our patients we have had to take great risks. The ethical divide dictates that those who choose to take those risks to try to improve things for others be informed to the best of our ability – of all the foreseeable risks as well as the potential benefits – prior to them consenting to the intervention. Next to informing them of the risks, we are obligated to do everything in our power to minimize any damage that may occur while we seek knowledge and methods in service of making things better.
If we (I refer to my colleagues in HIV research) had chosen to reject every action that had potential for loss morbidity/mortality during the early days when avenues for survival of our patients were non-existent, then many more millions would have died of HIV than already have. But at least we wouldn’t have killed anyone who was already dying of AIDS.
If Sanders had a perfect voting record on foreign policy, but sucked donkey dicks on Wall St would that be any better? I would argue that it is potentially worse. Because until we free our political processes from the immense sums of money from the Wall St/MIC that influence them we will never be able to consider candidates that support all the things that most of us think humane and decent.
To use your framing, which I acknowledge as a paramount issue, the passion of which I will never discount: It matters to me that Sanders has potential to harm fewer babies overall. Since I don’t have someone to vote for in the primary that can or will promise to never harm babies at all ( a situation likely to be different in the general election), I will vote in the primary for the candidate I perceive will do the most to reduce the number of babies dying, as opposed to abstaining and allowing my non-vote to act on behalf of the candidate whom I perceive as actively disdaining whether or not babies die at all.
Madeleine Albright supports Hillary Clinton and vocally repudiates Sanders. That endorsement, and the one from Kissinger – two of the biggest baby killers in history – weighs most heavily on me. If I can, with my primary vote, toss even the smallest of speedbumps into their roadmap for the world, then I’ll do it. Why the fuck wouldn’t I?
I respect your position, but I think that accusing others of voting for a baby bomber (in the service of exerting pressure on the system to reduce that harm somewhere, somehow), while not acknowledging that abdicating from voting in the primary, by default, ensures that the wholesale, vocally unrepentant baby bombers will continue unaffected in any way, is a rather strange way to draw a line on the absolute moral principle of trying to reduce death, including that of children.
“I respect your position, but I think that accusing others of voting for a baby bomber (in the service of exerting pressure on the system to reduce that harm somewhere, somehow), while not acknowledging that abdicating from voting in the primary, by default, ensures that the wholesale, vocally unrepentant baby bombers will continue unaffected in any way, is a rather strange way to draw a line on the absolute moral principle of trying to reduce death, including that of children.”
Pedinska, you know I have a long-standing respect and appreciation for your contributions here and in the previous incarnations of these discussions.
I must tell you, however, that your eloquent and, in some ways, well-reasoned post misses the most critical point: Given Sanders’ history, the history of the US and its militaristic and expansionist foreign policy under virtually every president who has ever held office and the reality of the power of the reactionary Congress and voracious MIC that will remain in place regardless of the outcome of this election, it is almost certain “that the wholesale, vocally unrepentant baby bombers will continue unaffected in any way,” regardless of your vote or mine and regardless of the outcome of the primaries or the general election.
I think this is unarguably the case and that it firmly establishes the truth that any vote for any candidate of the One Party with Two Right Wings constitutes a vote for baby bombing.
In such a situation, the only honorable choices for real opponents of baby bombing are voting for a real opponent of the practice or withholding one’s vote. Anything else effectively makes one an accessory — albeit, in some cases, an unintentional accessory — before and to the predictable killing.
The lesser of two evils is still evil, especially when s/he has little prospect of meaningfully changing the ongoing evil pattern and practice.
Just to clarify-
When you write “I think this is unarguably the case”, are you claiming that the US will initiate new wars of intervention against the will of the Commander in Chief?
Or merely that based on his record, Sanders will gleefully participate?
Are you claiming that Congress will override a Sanders veto and force the country into war?
Or merely that based on Bernie’s record, they won’t have to?
Are you saying that if Sanders hypothetically ordered a 75% reduction in drone strikes, that drone strikes would continue at their current pace?
Or merely that based on Bernie’s record, he would never issue such an order?
On Wall Street, a favorite phrase is past performance doesn’t guarantee future results.
But you seem to be insisting that you can predict what Bernie WILL DO, and that it is “”unarguable”.
It’s crystal ball nonsense cloaked as certainty.
I can’t believe you won’t admit that it is possible fewer “babies will be bombed”, based on who the occupant of the White House is.
As you can see, I am proving your “unarguable” claim wrong, because I am arguing the point.
Opinion stated as fact doesn’t make it fact.
At the very least, it should be clear to you that the juxtaposition of the words is problematic when you prefaced your “fact” with the words “I think”… don’t you think?
Note- I’m not claiming that all baby bombing will cease.
But I must take issue with your “it is almost certain” opinion that it will unarguably “continue unaffected in any way”.
A
@altohone
Too many questions to answer at once, but:
“When you write ‘I think this is unarguably the case’, are you claiming that the US will initiate new wars of intervention against the will of the Commander in Chief?
Or merely that based on his record, Sanders will gleefully participate?”
Neither, actually. Rather, I expect that the old wars will continue and morph into “new” ones as a result of the nature of our society, the structures of real power, and the momentum built up in 223 years of war in 240 years since independence (I think I have that right, adjusted for the new year). Sanders, in the Oval Office, would be swept along with the current, just as virtually every president to date has been, and as he has already so often been swept along in the House and Senate.
I’m sure he wouldn’t be gleeful, but I’ve been a more than a bit concerned about his vociferous demands for sanctioning Russia and “standing up to Putin.” That’s kinda risky stuff, ya know.
Clinton, the Obama administration, the two parties, and the Beltway media, all of whom serve the capitalist ruling class, want a military confrontation — and if possible, a world war — against China.
see:
isreview.org/issue/88/us-imperialisms-pivot-asia
Clinton’s revisionism about Kissinger and China, refuted.
read Gerald Horne’s review of Kissinger’s book:
http://politicalaffairs.net/kissinger-s-china-confessions-a-review-of-on-china/
Wow. Hillary Clinton really does love Henry Kissinger. David Corn writes this in Mother Jones:
Vacationing with a war criminal. How…progressive.
Repulsive progressive hypocrisy | A new poll shows deep support among liberals for the very Bush/Cheney policies they once pretended to despise
http://www.salon.com/2012/02/08/repulsive_progressive_hypocrisy/
Hillary claims that Kissinger (and, by implication, Nixon) “opened up China,” and indeed the VSP often talk about K&N “playing the China card.” But actually China played the U.S. card, playing off the United States against the Soviet Union. China wanted the opening for that very purpose, and K&N bought into it while claiming credit for all that ensued – some good, it is true, but a great deal not so good for the United States. Henry was never as smart as he thought he was, and I doubt that he has yet figured out that he was being played.
Friday on CNN’s “The Lead,” retired U.S. Army Lt. General Michael Flynn, the former head of the Defense Intelligence Agency, discussed his call for Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton to drop out of the race because she is under investigation by the FBI for how classified materiel was handled on her private email system.
http://www.breitbart.com/video/2016/02/12/former-obama-general-hillary-should-drop-out-id-be-in-jail-had-i-done-same/
See as well:
Elite ‘Democratic’ Planning at the Council on Foreign Relations (Part 1 of 2) https://zcomm.org/znetarticle/elite-democratic-planning-at-the-council-on-foreign-relations-part-1-of-2-by-michael-barker/
The Council on Foreign Relations and the Center for Preventive Action (Part 2 of 2)
https://zcomm.org/znetarticle/tthe-council-on-foreign-relations-and-the-center-for-preventive-action-part-2-of-2-by-michael-barker/
Debbie Wasserman Schulz explains that Hillary properly wins primaries if she didn’t win the primaries, because: superdelagates. CNN’s Jake Tapper asked her:
She replied in relevant part:
Oh.
the Election itself is a mechanism by which the ruling class controls the public and prevents social change from below.
the ruling class has many “checks” in place to make sure that the masses don’t get to influence public policy
Manufacturing Neoliberalism: How the Council of Foreign Relations Marketed Global Capitalism
http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/09/22/manufacturing-neoliberalism-how-the-council-of-foreign-relations-marketed-global-capitalism/
The American Enterprise Institute vs the Council on Foreign Relations
https://zcomm.org/zmagazine/the-american-enterprise-institute-vs-the-council-on-foreign-relations-by-laurence-h-shoup/
it reminds me of this excerpt from the conclusion of the book, Limits of Power, by conservative Andrew Bacevich
To illustrate the point further, take a look at these pieces by Laurence Shoup (author of the new book on the CFR called “Wall Street’s Think Tank”) from 2008, on how the presidential candidates find themselves advised by imperial imperial policymakers.
Obama and McCain March Rightward
https://zcomm.org/zmagazine/obama-and-mccain-march-rightward-by-laurence-h-shoup/
See as well
Finance Capitalists, the CFR, and the Obama Administration
By Laurence h. Shoup
https://zcomm.org/zmagazine/finance-capitalists-the-cfr-and-the-obama-administration-by-laurence-h-shoup/
Everyone! Read this review by Paul Street of Laurence Shoup’s new book on the CFR (the book is titled “Wall Street’s Think Tank”)
Yes, There is an Imperialist Ruling Class
http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/10/06/yes-there-is-an-imperialist-ruling-class/
And Hillary Clinton admits that she takes her marching orders from the Council on Foreign Relations:
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=hillary+clinton+says+she+takes+her+advice+from+the+council+on+foreign+relations&view=detail&mid=CFCCA6E6E75EE6D4E4EBCFCCA6E6E75EE6D4E4EB&FORM=VIRE1
see
Abby Martin and Laurence Shoup talking about the CFR
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwZFlYIfG68
Kissinger isn’t alone. Sanders will have — or already has — his own Kissinger-like advisers.
The imperial ruling class to which Sanders is committed will make sure that Sanders advances the ruling class agenda.
Read: Engineering Empire: An Introduction to the Intellectuals and Institutions of American Imperialism
http://www.hamptoninstitution.org/engineeringempire.html
Except unlike all other candidates he is not bought, and is not committed to them. They’ll have to assassinate him, which I have no doubt will occur if he wins Presidency.
Great article. Slight correction.
Ms. Albright’s company is “Albright Stonebridge” not “Albright Stoneridge”.
Bill’s war crimes in Africa should be on the table as well. Immigrant communities from the African Great Lakes Region are working hard for Bernie Sanders because he’s Hillary’s opponent and the Clintons return to the White House is their worst political nightmare. Funny thing about that is it’s a constituency Bernie Sanders doesn’t even know he has.
Let’s not forget how much Bill and Hillary have “helped” Haiti!:
http://blackagendareport.com/content/bill-clinton-loves-haiti
Good job. Now how about a follow-up that details Kissinger’s involvement with Freeport-McMoran Copper and Gold Company. That would be very enlightening for folks that don’t know about the millions Kissinger has made from the mining company that has been raping the Indonesian assets, enslaving its people and polluting its environment.
Also check out the documentary, “The Act of Killing”:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxpFSRLq4vE
Great for moving deeper than the headlines, a much appreciated primer.
What’s missing is some connecting the dots with why a militaristic hawk consensus exists, how it is a direct outgrowth of elite political control ensured by dominance of wealthy donors in the political game.
Without those connections we get more “complaint journalism” and more of the “bad men theory” of history. That’s a kind of spectacle that doesn’t illuminate any path to change.
Show us instead how the rigged political system ensures that this kind of foreign policy consensus will emerge, point to how reforms could start to change the rules of that game, and then report the polítical battles for those reforms.
Any left media can dis Kissinger he’s an easy target. Make it real, vital, meaningful journalism. That’s what we are all hoping for with The Intercept.
Several days ago I said on Twitter that Bernie Sanders is a Zionist, and to my surprise, Rania Khalek took issue with me and linked me to her article on that topic. An excerpt:
I don’t find Khalek persuasive as to whether Bernie is a Zionist; he is. But it’s interesting that she isn’t ruling him out as possibly pretty good on the issue of Israel-Palestine.
Hope springs infernal.
Hillary’s embrace of Kissinger is disgusting.
The fact that she thinks it makes her look good is the most disgusting thing about it.
The little neolibcon bubble she lives in keeps her from seeing it.
NOT a single article on TI to scrutinize Sanders. They are all about bashing Clinton. When a commentator (Doug) decides to do the job those so called journalists brag about, which is to examine public officials, he is described as a “troll” writing “BS”.
“Henry Kissinger’s War Crimes Are Central to the Divide Between Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders” Feb 12, 2016
“Hillary Clinton’s Congressional Black Caucus PAC Endorsement Approved by Board Awash in Lobbyists” Feb 11, 2016
“Lobbyists, Consultants Fret Over Bernie Sanders Victory” Feb 10, 2016
“Why Goldman CEO Lloyd Blankfein Called Bernie Sanders “Dangerous” Feb 8, 2016
“Top Hillary Clinton Advisers and Fundraisers Lobbied Against Obamacare and Dodd-Frank” Feb 8, 2016
“Here’s What Hillary Clinton’s Paid Speaking Contract Looks Like” Feb 5, 2016
“Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders Brawl Over His “Insinuation” That She’s Corrupt” Feb 5, 2016
“Hillary Clinton Won’t Say if She’ll Release Transcripts of Goldman Sachs Speeches” Feb 4, 2016
“Insiders Predicted That Bernie Sanders Would Be No Threat to Hillary Clinton” Feb 2, 2016
“Top Hillary Clinton PAC Donation Amounts to 222,000 Bernie Sanders Donations” Feb 1, 2016
“The “Bernie Bros” Narrative: a Cheap Campaign Tactic Masquerading as Journalism and Social Activism” Jan 31, 2016
You’re still not getting it right. Let me fix it for you, again.
To see an article setting forth Bernie Sanders record on civil and human rights, an article with this thing called links so that one may see for oneself, see: 19 Examples of Bernie Sanders’ Powerful Record on Civil and Human Rights Since the 1950s.
Anyone criticizing or praising a public figure and deploying fact claims, must offer support if reasonable people are to take them seriously. Moreover, a mere recitation of votes can be grossly misleading. There’s been some of that here, and I will continue to set the record straight. (I have an example but it entails a second link in this post, and I already lost the first try attempting to use two.)
“Moreover, a mere recitation of votes can be grossly misleading.”
A “mere” recitation, Mona? The attempts at refutation grow ever weaker.
And why are we changing the subject from baby bombing and war crimes to civil rights?
Doug, you have previously announced that you would be ignoring me. In any event, I am perfectly content to let readers decide how “weak” my refutations are. And Doug, read the whole thread. The conversation has expanded, and I did not initiate that expansion.
“Doug, you have previously announced that you would be ignoring me.”
Did I? I probably forgot. Getting older, you know.
“The conversation has expanded, and I did not initiate that expansion.”
No, you’re just the one who conflated one subject with another in an attempt to divert the exchange and continue your ongoing attack on my challenges to the TI Sanders campaign, of which you are a leading champion and defender of the faith.
Let’s try one at a time. What do you have to say about this one?
1998, HR 4655, the Iraqi Liberation Act of 1998, “Declares that it should be the policy of the United States to seek to remove the Saddam Hussein regime from power in Iraq and to replace it with a democratic government.” Sanders: Yea
It was used by W to argue for the Iraq war, which Bernie voted against. But on its own terms it was little more than an announcement and specifically prohibited using the military to bring about the removal of Saddam Hussein. It did designate funding to assist those fleeing the Hussein regime, and I can’t see what’s wrong with that.
Mona: “. . .specifically prohibited using the military. . .”
That’s simply not true.
That’s not any sort of prohibition, much less a specific one.
And section 4(a)(2) says:
You’re really just digging deeper, Mona. Now, you’re in a place where you’re defending a vote for regime change.
I’m “defending” nothing; I’m insisting on the truth about that bill. That act called for the president to designate Iraqi groups who were eligible for training and equipment, and Clinton designated:
The Iraqi National Accord,
The Iraqi National Congress,
The Islamic Movement of Iraqi Kurdistan,
The Kurdistan Democratic Party,
The Movement for Constitutional Monarchy,
The Patriotic Union of Kurdistan, and
The Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq.
These are not “proxies.” They are Iraqi entities.
U.S. military intervention was specifically prohibited. Bush could not, and did not, invade Iraq based on that bill. Sanders voted against the bill that DID authorize an invasion.
The vote for the Iraqi Liberation Act of 1998, in the Senate, was unanimous. Moreover, I have no objections to regime change. Saddam was heinous. As long as that change was done by Iraqis.
There is simply no point in continuing to argue with someone who can either believe or pretend that Ahmed Chalabi’s Iraqi National Congress wasn’t a US proxy.
I think I have to really be finished with you Mona.
You have no ethics, no moral foundation that I can respect, and you don’t give a shit about the truth. Beyond that, you are so desperate to win an argument that you will say any ridiculous thing that pops into your head.
It’s time to disengage from the Lesser of Two Baby Bombers advocate.
It wasn’t a “proxy.” Which is not to say it was good. It was an internal Iraqi entity, albeit one probably created with a lot of CIA help.
You had said the act provided military funding for “U.S. proxieS,” plural. It did not, as the list of those entities I provided shows. A “proxy war” is a war fought by nations when the major country supporting the war does not directly engage. That bill did not fund another nation in a war against Iraq. It did not fund a war at all.
The bill was unanimous in the Senate. It’s unfortunate that Bill Clinton chose to include Chalabi’s group in the authorization for assistance, but that was only one of seven Iraqi groups.
And Doug, you need to pay better attention. When I said the convo had expanded and that I did not initiate that expansion, I knew whereof I spoke. I also replied directly to Craig. (I now ignore Craig 90% of the time, except when he says something I feel needs rebutting.)
Which as far as I can tell, you have not
You’re right. Sanders should have voted to coddle dictators instead.
There has been some hoop de doo, especially from Rep. John Lewis of the Congressional Black Caucus, who made a blistering statement trying to state that Bernie Sanders had NO ROLE in the Civil Rights movement from the 1960’s:
http://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2016-02-11/john-lewis-on-sanders-civil-rights-work-never-saw-him
Then I found this:
http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1964/01/14/page/6/article/race-protest-cases-of-159-are-decided
The “Clinton Camp” have launched a nasty campaign against Sanders related to his support of Blacks in America.
I hope these links will dispel any lingering doubts about Sen. Sanders on the issue of “civil rights”.
Many blacks aren’t having it. Harry Belafonte took to MSNBC to chastise Lewis and endorse Sanders, and posts like this, Open Letter to John Lewis, are going up. Former NAACP head, Ben Jealous, has endorsed Sanders.
To consult a setting forth of Bernie Sanders’ record on civil and human rights, including crime, there are articles that contain these things called links that one may follow to see the truth for oneself: 19 Examples of Bernie Sanders’ Powerful Record on Civil and Human Rights Since the 1950s Claims for or against any public figure, including Bernie Sanders, require support.
Moreover, a mere list of votes can be very misleading. I’ve had to demonstrate that here several times vis-a-vis Sanders, and will continue to do so. (Doug has spewed that Bernie voted not to close Gitmo — Bernie did do that, for reasons Russ Feingold also did, reasons Glenn Greenwald found persuasive.)
Critiquing Bernie Sanders is a good thing. Lying about his record is not.
Kissinger or no, just for an education watch the vid of Hillary watching Qadaffi’s demise… And then, is Kissinger the frosting or the cake? Or, are he and KHillary peas in a pod?
Just for an education…watch 13 minutes of Hillary Clinton LYING:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dY77j6uBHI&feature=youtu.be
Dan, ATL: “[Sanders] represents the marginalized non-interventionists, who can’t possibly forgive someone with the blood of millions of brown people on his hands.”
This is simply not true. Not even close to true. It is either evidence of Dan’s deep ignorance of Sanders’ foreign policy history or a knowing and shameful lie.
Considering the “choices” we have this election season….
It is either Clinton the Neocon Haim Saban “Israel First” sycophant or Sanders the “Oh, shit! We have millions of Americans signing on to our campaign who want the Israeli occupation to end! and bring us into a NEW NON-INTERVENTIONIST policy” or Trump the Neo-Fascist candidate who wants to waterboard and impose an Uber-militaristic WW III “I will bring on the biggest military in the world’s history!” camp onto all of us.
It is not a hard question to answer folks.
I would rather have a first Jewish president Sanders who will LISTEN to his “revolutionary followers” than to a Clinton Neocon or Trump hate-filled, dumb-downed, hate filled constituency.
Which do you choose? Which would you prefer to go out and campaign for?
The whole world is watching……
“Which do you choose? Which would you prefer to go out and campaign for?”
Don’t be silly. No candidate of the One Party with Two Right Wings has gotten my vote in decades.
And if you imagine that Sanders, if elected, will listen to his “revolutionary followers,” especially with regard to the Israeli occupation of Palestine, you need to watch and listen to this video:
Bernie Sanders Townhall Explodes Over Israel
You are correct to point out this video.
But still, the choice remains, either stay home, or vote for Clinton who will absolutely follow the PNAC Neocon playbook of “military full spectrum dominance” (WW III?) or vote for Sanders, whom I think we would ALL have a better chance at finding a “settlement of Peace in Palestine” than with the other alternatives.
Trump, in this regard, is a non-starter, as is with all the other Republican alternatives. He has a VERY tight connection to Israel (as bad as Clinton’s…or WORSE).
For me, the candidate I will vote for, will have the BEST chance of reining in the MIC and of finding a lasting settlement of PEACE in Israel for the Palestinian people and the Israeli’s who want PEACE.
The Liberty Union Party is an antiwar socialist party in Vermont, founded in 1970. Bernie Sanders joined the following year and ran for office on the LUP ticket a few times, before deciding to become an independent.
@ Doug Salzmann
Now that’s the sort of article and history about Bernie he better be prepared to handle. Because while politicians are imperfect if that sort of thing get’s out, it’s going to create a serious problem for lots of his present supporters.
I would ask one thing–and on this I agree with Mona and Pedinska–I think it is perfectly fair and legitimate to criticize Bernie’s support for military funding, but do it with the nuance of trying to dig into his views on any particular vote. Often times legislation is packed, purposely, with self-contradicting things–more guns and bombs, but also more services to veterans. Sometimes it is difficult to vote for one without voting for the other. I also think that is a horrible reality, and a perfect illustration of the corruption of our government, that bills aren’t limited to very specific and related stand along things. When they aren’t it forces this horrible compromise of all legislators and makes it so the public can never hold any politician accountable for anything. That needs to change. But that’s also, deep down, IMHO, a function of the corruption of big money on the US Congress. If you don’t fix the money problem, you’ll never fix the way legislation is loaded up with unrelated pork or purposely calculated to force immoral compromises.
Short of that I think Bernie’s record is always fair game, I’d just say I think it is a bit more nuanced than you are presenting it. I think Bernie Sanders is a fairly honest, if imperfect human (like us all), working in the most horribly corrupted system the world has ever seen that refers to itself as “democracy” or “representative government”. It is neither.
What other contents of a bill or resolution would you say justify approving funding for wars of aggression, area bombing of cities, drone strikes that blow children to bloody bits, sanctions that cause millions of deaths?
How can you even think of using the term “nuanced” in that context?
Why are you continuing to ignore this factual aspect of congressional voting which rrheard addressed?
You, Doug, know that that is how it works, so you must know that that is what is meant by your lack of “nuance” in much of what you have been posting.
“Why are you continuing to ignore this factual aspect of congressional voting which rrheard addressed?”
I didn’t ignore it, nor did I deny its reality. Rather, I asked this:
“What other contents of a bill or resolution would you say justify approving funding for wars of aggression, area bombing of cities, drone strikes that blow children to bloody bits, sanctions that cause millions of deaths?”
Which ones would justify such a vote for you?
“I’ll vote for your war if you vote for my _______” Please fill in the blank.
“I’ll support every single military construction bill that comes before us if _______”
“I’ll support (repeatedly) sanctions that are killing millions if you include an amendment that _______”
There is no trade-off valuable enough to justify supporting invading nations at will and starving and killing innocents by the millions. Apologies to Howard Zinn.
It’s a pile of assertions. There are no links at that site.
Save your keystrokes :)
“It’s a pile of assertions. There are no links at that site.”
It’s a first-person report from one of Bernie’s former supporters (and member of a party to which Bernie once belonged) regarding his long-time personal experiences and his views on Bernie’s political regression over time, in order to advance his career and keep his “seat at the table.”
To what or to where would you expect links in a piece like that?
I don’t care if it’s written by Jesus Christ. It’s got no citations or links. It’s someone’s opinion, and not worth much as such.
TI is supporting Sanders. That is the bottom line. Your factual analysis is completely irrelevant. You have already become a troll for daring to scrutinize TI candidate.
Try that experiment: write negative comments about Hillary Clinton and I guarantee you will be praised.
Let me fix this for you:
To what or to where would you expect links in a piece like that?
Hi Doug. I sort of have objections to the lack of links in that piece as well. I understand that this is largely a personal testimonial, I take that into account because personal experiences can give insights. But there are factual assertions in that piece that could be backed up with links to the historical record that should exist.
For instance, I would have linked the phrases,
to the bills Sanders voted on with those provisions. There are other places where links in that manner would have been helpful. I think links add to my ability to accurately evaluate a given piece of information.
I’d also like to see some links to the claim that Sanders suddenly began to ardently support the drug war.
“For instance, I would have linked the phrases,
‘his support of the NATO bombing of Yugoslavia and the ongoing war against Iraq’
to the bills Sanders voted on with those provisions.”
Well, I have, twice, provided the specifics of Sanders’ votes on those matters, which has resulted in Mona throwing hissy fits over “cut and paste” “spamming” and “mere recitation” of votes.
Given that I have already, quite clearly, provided the citations, I’m not sure it’s reasonable to expect me to insert them in excerpts from another writer’s personal account of his experience with Sanders.
In any case, one has to wonder how intelligent, well-read and -informed, usually thoughtful regulars in these threads have gotten to this point in the election cycle without already knowing that their “peace candidate” has voted repeatedly for exactly the opposite. And it’s rather disturbing to see the violent reaction and outright denial that results from bringing these matters bluntly to the attention of Sanders fans. It reminds me of the abuse I got for challenging Obama supporters (twice), Kerry supporters, Gore supporters . . .
I’m afraid Americans are just never going to learn.
I did not read Pedinska as asking for that. I construed her as criticizing the article you excerpted from, and linked to, for not having any supporting links.
If you want all of the “intelligent, well-read and -informed, usually thoughtful regulars in these threads” to accept critiques of Bernie Sanders you are going to have to link to sources who support their claims.
Moreover, and again, a mere list of votes by Bernie Sanders is interesting, but not dispositive without understanding each vote and how it fits into Sanders’ whole record. As you well know now (because I showed you), when Bernie voted not to close Gitmo, he did so for reasons so sound the ACLU agreed with him.
one has to wonder how intelligent, well-read and -informed, usually thoughtful regulars in these threads have gotten to this point in the election cycle without already knowing that their “peace candidate” has voted repeatedly for exactly the opposite. And it’s rather disturbing to see the violent reaction and outright denial that results from bringing these matters bluntly to the attention of Sanders fans.
I have never named, nor considered, Bernie Sanders a “peace candidate”.
I am aware of his votes, many of which I disagree with. I am also aware of the ones we have in common.
I have neither reacted violently nor denied the information you shared.
I only asked for a minimum of support for the assertions made. Something I would think anyone would expect to include if they were sharing information they truly felt important to peoples’ decision making.
I am not a Sanders “fan”. I think that’s reductionary. Reductionist. Whatever. :-s
I’m afraid Americans are just never going to learn.
That’s entirely possible. But I’m not of that breed.
I need to learn, but it has to happen in a way I find credible . I consider whatever is presented but I lend weight to sourcing that can be examined independently. Anything less than that is vulnerable to assertions that contradict (with, or without, proof of their own). I think this is pretty basic stuff. Otherwise, we’re all just sort of chasing the preachers with the most appeal.
Other folks may sort things differently than me, and that’s ok, this is just how my brain juggles things. But, for the life of me, I can’t see how abandoning support for Sanders in the primary does anything but hand great advantage to someone who, by all accounts I’ve read, offers no hope of anything but a continuation that which long ago became untenable.
I will admit that after last nights debate when Sanders had the guts to bring up KISSINGER in the debate and after he said that he would use his JUDGEMENT not to go into a PERPETUAL WAR MODE, that I would finally send him $27. And I did.
I had kept a bumper sticker I had held for months, waiting for him to make a leap necessary for me to become active, and after his statements to Clinton last night, I slapped that sticker on my car today.
Now, granted, I am in California, where our primary will be held in JUNE!!!, probably long past the time Clinton may have amassed the necessary delegates (including all of her and Debbie Wasserman Schultz’s rotten “Super Delegates” to get to the nomination), but, still, I felt it incumbent on me to take a stand NOW.
My measly $27 donation and the smacking of the bumper sticker on my car is the LEAST I can do at this point to promote the “best of all worlds” onto my fellow travelers here in Los Angeles.
As a “progressive” I may be seen as a “sell-out”, but ANYTHING I can do to stop the rotten, criminal, lying Clinton Machine will help my heart rest at peace.
And this is the sort of stuff that is just flat maddening from Pres. Obama (he does good things and then incoherently does bad things in foreign policy like he just doesn’t “get it”):
http://mondoweiss.net/2016/02/obama-to-sign-aipac-promoted-trade-bill-that-legitimizes-israeli-occupation-and-fights-bds/
It is going to take billions of people/individuals (because businesses and NGOs are ultimately going to be sued if they try the way it’s going) all over the globe to educate themselves and simply refuse to buy Israeli products and services (or anything with constituent parts) before any changes to Israel or US policy. I wish China and Russia would give the US the giant fucking finger and figure out a way to economically boycott Israel until it changes its ways.
This shouldn’t surprise anyone given US government’s policy with regard to South Africa and basically being the last civilized (and UK) nation on the globe to take a meaningful stand against Apartheid.
Not to mention the hypocrisy of Hillary Clinton trying to embrace Mandela’s legacy last night, like she wasn’t likely on board with the US continuing to classify Mandela as a “terrorist” and leave him on the terrorist watch list the entirety of President Bill Clinton’s two terms. It was George fucking Bush for pete’s sake who finally removed him from it in 2008.
Even Dick Cheney when he was in Congress in 1986 voted to remove Mandela and recognize the ANC which Reagan tried to veto unsuccessfully.
Mondoweiss has it right–the Bernie Doctrine of foreign policy he should embrace fully and openly is “No More Wars for Billionaires and the MICC”.
The US government and US elite’s are some of the ugliest immoral human beings on the planet. It disgusts me how they rationalize the evil they do all over the globe.
“…….I wish China and Russia would give the US the giant fucking finger and figure out a way to economically boycott Israel until it changes its ways……”
Really RR? Ever heard of Tibet? Ever hear of the Crimea Peninsula? You must believe that the Russia and Chinese governments give a fuck about anything but retaining power at all costs. Neither one could care less about the Palestinians. Isn’t that obvious, or are you so fucking naive that you actually believe they do?
Regardless of your panicked whining, Russia and China have never supported Israel. So you don’t really have a point.
“Russia and China have never supported Israel”
Obviously you are well informed, so would you tell us
1) which country was one of the firsts to recognize Israel?
2) Which country provided weapons to Israel during the 1947 Israel Arab War?
3) How much is the weapon trade between Israel-Russia-China? (a hint $1bn in 1999)
4) What does Putin think about Israel? ( a hint Putin quote “Israel is a Russian speaking country, a special state to us”)
Much irrelevancy about nothing.
Translation: Baldie is an idiot. He stated Russia and China never supported Israel while Russia is one of the first states to recognize Israel and provide it with weapons and with China it has a multi billion dollar weapon trade with Israel.
@ Craig
Lot of wars being waged in the world over the treatment of Tibetans? No? Of course I support Tibet’s independence and always will.
But Israel and US policy towards it creates 10X the bloodshed that the Tibet dispute does.
And as far as Crimea goes, get your fucking facts straight dimbulb–Crimea has been a part of Russia since 1783 or 1917 depending upon how you look at it. As of 1991 Crimea was the Autonomous Republic of Crimea within the Republic of Ukraine.
If you don’t understand its historical and present importance to Russia then you don’t know shit and you are the one who is naïve.
Fuck you you fucking moron.
rrheard
“……If you don’t understand its historical and present importance to Russia then you don’t know shit and you are the one who is naïve.
Oh I understand it alright. Unfortunately Russia, signed an agreement in 1994 which they violated:
“……..But in return for giving up its nukes, Ukraine wanted some security assurances—leading to the 1994 Budapest Memorandum. The memorandum, signed by then-Ukrainian President Leonid Kuchma, along with Bill Clinton, Boris Yeltsin, and John Major, required that the signatories “respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine” and “refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine.”….”
Calling me a fucking moron is not going to change the fact that Russia violated its own agreement. Annexing the territory of a sovereign nation is illegal under international law. You know that don’t you?
“……Of course I support Tibet’s independence and always will…..”
Really? You are not very vocal about it – and you sure seem to believe that China has some kind of credibility when it comes to human rights. They don’t. Even a dim wit understands that, my friend.
Thanks for the memories.
Craig…let’s get serious here shall we?
Over the past 50 years how many countries have we seen “regime change” in related to Russia compared to the United States?
Who has been the “aggressor” nation on Earth and who has stood down?
Which country has had the publicly released doctrine of “regime change” via the Project for a New American Century” and other Neocon entities compared to Russia?
You . Are. A. JOKE.
“…….Over the past 50 years how many countries have we seen “regime change” in related to Russia compared to the United States?….”
Are you joking? Ever heard of the Soviet Union? Let me guess, you are only 25 years old so why should I expect you to recognize USSR or the KGB. As I recall, 15 countries were freed when the USSR fell apart. Many beat a path to the EU and NATO. Ukraine, however, was under the thumb of Russia even after the evil empire collapsed under its own weight. So when the people of Ukraine rebelled after a half of a century of Russian puppets running the country and overthrew the government, this caused Putin to ride his horse shirtless and start a civil war in Ukraine. Additionally, he annexed (illegally) a part of Ukraine.
Regardless of what you believe about the US, it has nothing to do with illegal Russian support for the eastern Ukraine rebels, the illegal annexation of the Crimea peninsula or the propping up of one of the great murderers in the Middle East – Assad.
Thanks.
Please…..:
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=john+kerry+and+wife+dining+with+assad&view=detailv2&&id=22402EB7D1D2656BE2700DD6379B5D257BD2780E&selectedIndex=0&ccid=HNZwzx4T&simid=608033478689819836&thid=OIP.M1cd670cf1e13bd03dc8ec5b0a5a063e0o0&ajaxhist=0
“Crimea has been a part of Russia since 1783 or 1917 depending upon how you look at it.”
What a splendid defense! It is amazingly similar to Israelis stating that Palestine belonged to Jews since antiquity, thousands of years before the Arabs.
Would you support a Mexican armed invasion of Texas or New Mexico…?
Only an idiot like RR would expect others to take him seriously while he supports blatant violations of international laws and agreements by Russia while he spends his whole day whining about Israel disregard of those same international laws.
“Fuck you you fucking moron.”
Which proves my point.
I wish ALL of the citizens in the United States could vote like they did in Crimea (paper ballots in a plastic transparent box etc.):
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=crimeans+vote+to+join+russia&view=detailv2&&id=D4548CA09D2CCD48BC03F2F68A0245002AE5CE02&selectedIndex=7&ccid=u3F30SJL&simid=608026675464505293&thid=OIP.Mbb7177d1224b0905cb9c5e1308d6f375o0&ajaxhist=0
Reminds me of the Republican election we had in Connecticut back in 2007 when held in Middletown, CT.
It was a yuggeeeee! room in an Elk’s hall setting.
I was a Ron Paul supporter and there were about 500 people in attendance for the state election.
There was an open bar (naturally) and either the candidate or their representative had five minutes to present their case.
Then we all had about 30 minutes to cast our ballots. All on paper.
When we handed in our ballots and dropped them into the wooden boxes on various huge round tables we had to put our thumb prints on the ballots in ink. That prevented us from voting twice.
When the bell rang the voting was over.
Then, the lights went on bright, and all the ballots were dropped out onto the tables and scores of people stood around and watched the count (as it SHOULD BE).
Afterwards the results were announced to the gathering. Ron Paul won. Hands down.
But the Hartford Courant for WEEKS refused to announce the results. Finally, they did. On page 20.
THIS is the way ALL elections should be held. On a precinct level, with a full bar, paper ballots, counted by the people.
Would you like Mexican troops in California when that state is having its election as well?
@ truth&:Freedom
Yawwwn. Do you know what the word “autonomous” means? Do you know why Russia agreed, until things changed in Ukraine (a Western led coup), to “cede” Crimea to Ukraine? Do you know who the majority of people of Crimea (and the city of Sevastopol) are and what they want? Do you know what a “fait accompli” is what the relationship of Crimea to Russia is today?
And for the record, I don’t support violations of international law. And as soon as the US starts adhering to international law, I’ll start holding Russia to precisely the same standard. Until then, I can not support violations of international law, but still understand Russia’s actions with regard to Crimea notwithstanding any purported violations of international law.
The point being, Russia has 100X the claim to Crimea than the US does to any place on the globe it claims it has when it goes around invading and bombing the shit out of, and deposing the democratically elected leaders of a long list of nations going on decades. Russia not so much. So shove your mindless inapt analogy and ahistorical critique up your ass.
“Do you know why Russia agreed, until things changed in Ukraine (a Western led coup), to “cede” Crimea to Ukraine? Do you know who the majority of people of Crimea (and the city of Sevastopol) are and what they want? Do you know what a “fait accompli” is what the relationship of Crimea to Russia is today?”
PERFECT IDIOT.
Western Led Coup: of course, the Russian version of events cannot be false. After all Russia has an impeccable record of telling the whole truth to the world.
The Majority in Crimea: Completely irrelevant to the respect of international laws. The majority of people living in what is called Israel today are Jews who want an Israeli state. Does it mean their occupation of Arab lands is right?
Fait Accompli: Really? Did they remove the sanctions against.
“And for the record, I don’t support violations of international law. And as soon as the US starts adhering to international law, I’ll start holding Russia to precisely the same standard.”
Good point. The only problem is that you seem to criticize Israel, which, like the US and Russia do not adhere to international laws. So, if you want to be taken seriously then start ignoring Israel, Russia, ISIS, Rwanda, Pakistan….ignore ALL of them and concentrate exclusively on US violations of international laws.
“The point being, Russia has 100X the claim to Crimea than the US does to any place on the globe it claims it has when it goes around invading and bombing the shit out of, and deposing the democratically elected leaders of a long list of nations going on decades. Russia not so much. So shove your mindless inapt analogy and ahistorical critique up your ass.”
I love when idiots keep making a fool of themselves. This is a list of countries destabilized by the Russians:
Ukraine, Belarus, Georgia, East Germany, Poland, Latvia, Bulgaria, Hungary, Estonia, Albania…
Do I need to add the number of people died in those countries as a direct result of Russia foreign policy? Do I need to add the countries in Asia? In Africa?
Yes, RR you are an idiot! You have a history for writing factually incorrect statements and complete nonsense.
@ Craig
And as an aside, do you not believe the US “doesn’t give a fuck about anything but retaining power at all costs”?
Of course it does. That’s its entire foreign policy. Ever heard every single high ranking official parrot something to the effect “we are the world’s indispensable nation”. Every single thing America does abroad is calculated to expand or maintain its present position as “global hegemon”. Problem is it never lasts–for any empire.
If you are too stupid to understand that about your own country, then you aren’t smart enough to even engage which is why I haven’t much lately.
“do you not believe the US “doesn’t give a fuck about anything but retaining power at all costs”?
You are very stupid to believe that it is wrong for a country to defend its interest worldwide.
“Problem is it never lasts–for any empire.”
That is a weird Empire. That empire does not control the economic/social systems of European countries. Countries in the empire’s “backyard” such Venezuela, Equator, Bolivia, Cuba…pick their own economic/social systems. Russia invades other countries, send troops to Syria regardless of what the Empire says.
RR is an idiot who just repeats what others say. He cannot think for himself.
@ truth&Freedom
Depends on how you “defend” your purported “worldwide interests” and whether it has been democratically determined and debated what precisely those “interests” are in fact, and by what “means” they should be protected. By contrast an “empire” is a function of a polity’s elite “interests” and decisions, and rarely a function of its people’s democratic or majoritarian choices. Same in America as was the case in every empire before it. That’s the problem.
Russia didn’t invade Syria it was invited in by its legitimate government as recognized by the UN which is not to say that some in the UN have sought to delegitimize the Syrian government under international law but for Russia’s Security Counsel veto of such efforts. That’s a fair legal issue to debate.
But, again, as far as Crimea goes, if you don’t understand the issues surrounding it, present and past, then there’s no point in me continuing this back and forth.
“But that only works, of course, if you understand who Kissinger is — which surely many of today’s voters don’t.”
Many of today’s journalists and bloggers don’t, either. Someone on Sanders’ campaign should tell him, of course, so he can clarify. But it’s not his fault.
Mr. Froomkin
“……in her book and in this last debate, she talked about getting the approval or the support or the mentoring of Henry Kissinger…..”
This is another disingenuous hit job on Hillary Clinton by the Intercept. First it was the half-truths promoted by Greenwald that Hillary was partially responsible for passing the 1994 “Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act” which Bernie Sanders supported with a vote in the House. Indeed 26 out of 38 Congressional Black Caucus members also voted for the bill. This was never mentioned by Greenwald who is still apparently arguing his “journalism” before the Supreme Court. Then we have the concerted effort by Fang (literally) and Schwarz each slamming Hillary for one reason or another without the least amount of criticism for her opponent Bernie Sanders.
This hit piece tries to imply a connection between the potential policies of Hillary Clinton as President and Henry Kissinger because Hillary suggested in her book (I guess) that she was mentored by Henry Kissinger.
According to Zack Dorfman of the LA Times (reviewing the book by the author of the book cited by Froomkin i.e., Grandin):
“……I think Kissinger was more tethered to the classical understanding of realpolitik than Grandin acknowledges. One can find a whole variety of intellectual justifications for war-making with the old and new right alike. But especially when it came to major powers, Kissinger could also find justifications for peacemaking, and he did: in helping establish diplomatic relations with Communist China, in his shuttle diplomacy in the Middle East, in negotiating two major arms-control agreements with the Soviet Union, and in spearheading the larger policy of détente……”
So there were clearly things to be learned from Kissinger by Ms. Clinton – or any future Secretary of State. That doesn’t mean that she supported all of the policies presented by Kissinger during his time as Secretary of State. Indeed, where is the evidence that she supported Kissinger’s policies (some clearly crossed the line of decency)? Which specific policies of Kissinger and Nixon does Hillary support? Do you even have a clue, Mr. Froomkin or do you just make up shit when it is politically convenient?
Hillary is quite clear in pointing out disagreements between her and Kissinger:
“……Though we have often seen the world and some of our challenges quite differently, and advocated different responses now and in the past…..”
“……And she said he came off as “surprisingly idealistic. Even when there are tensions between our values and other objectives….”
So any connection between the policies of Hillary Clinton and Kissinger is pure speculation on your part which is no better than the Main Stream Media. In fact, in terms of actual journalism, the Intercept is one of the worst that I have read.
By all means keep up the good work though. It actually is quite good that the Intercept has enough confidence in the American democracy that you are taking a clear position in support of a candidate.
A little peacemaking here, a little illegal carpetbombing there, and pretty soon you’re an elder statesman. No wonder Hillary pals around with Kissinger.
I do think it’s funny though how you can’t quite bring yourself to quote her on exactly what her differences with Henry were. Is that because she was coy about them? Or because they were so slender you couldn’t pack a roast beef sandwich with them?
And then you ask us to take a trip in a time machine to find out which policies of a dead president Hillary “supports.” No one said she was part of the Christmas bombing, Criag. Are you here for Hillary’s honor? Or for Henry’s? Is there a difference?
“……I do think it’s funny though how you can’t quite bring yourself to quote her on exactly what her differences with Henry were. Is that because she was coy about them? Or because they were so slender you couldn’t pack a roast beef sandwich with them?…..”
You can’t turn this back on me Baldie. I’m not the one claiming to be a journalist. If Froomkin has some idea on which policies of Kissinger that Hillary supports (or supported), then he should report them.
Thanks for your feedback though. I always appreciate your superb knowledge on foreign policy issues.
Why should he do your work for you? You’ve got the quotes, let’s bring out the good stuff.
Let us all recall how Kissinger, whom George W. Bush tried to cram down America’s throat, was named to head the 9/11 Commission and was ROUNDLY REJECTED by the widows of 9/11 victims, THE JERSEY GIRLS within a matter of HOURS and he bowed out:
http://911blogger.com/news/2013-06-09/henry-kissinger-and-911-commission
Craig and Nate want a threeway with Henry.
“Craig and Nate want a threeway with Henry.”
teh foombler teh boombler an teh impootunt mass mordorer.
tahts a partee efen Myrna wud toorn hur noze (azz oppoosed too hur buttum) up to don u no.
And yet here you are day in and day out. To what effect? None. So the question is do you get paid to do it, or just a guilty pleasure to spread you deep pearls of wisdom without block quotes all day every day?
You should move to your favorite country Israel where the lands are fruitful, the government pure and altruistic, and personally get your hands dirty doing a little wet work against a millions of caged-in human beings. Probably not though, huh? Most sociopaths are cowards down deep which is why you continue to live in America instead of go defend your self professed “best country in the world” Israel.
“And yet here you are day in and day out. To what effect? None”
Some of us are here to challenge the propagandist nature of The Intercept. If we did not have any effect, then you would ignore us. The fact that you and others quickly call us paid trolls or ask for us to be banned is the clear evidence that we do have some effects.
And your argument is completely irrational. Your routine is to present America as the worst terrorist state, but you are asking somebody who defends America why is he living in the US. The question should be addressed to you. If it is that bad why are you still here? As a taxpayer and consumer you are directly and indirectly financing that terrorist state.
And which he urgently tried to amend. He opposed a similar bill in ’91, but voted for the ’94 version because it included the Violence Against Women Act and the ban on certain assault weapons. On the House floor in ’94 he said this:
He voted for that bill, Mona.
Citing his “urgent” attempt to amend it is a poor excuse for a Yea vote. Actually, it’s a pathetic excuse.
Yes, he did. And he also tried to amend it, and he also gave the speech that he gave on the floor of the House. What you dismiss as an “excuse” is the full truth of the matter. Bernie Sanders did not promote that bill. He still should have voted against it again, but there’s a reason he has a 93% voting rate from the ACLU and Hillary’s is 60%.
I dismiss it as an excuse because that’s what it is.
He voted for the bill, Mona. We don’t count speeches and we don’t count attempted amendments that failed, certainly not when the speechifier and offeror of amendments changes course and votes for that against which he spoke. We count votes and Bernie’s was Yea.
Yes, “we” do. We consider the person’s whole record, all of their votes on the relevant issues, the reason for all of their votes, what they said, and what they tried to do to change a bill. Whether they promoted the worst aspects of the bill, or whether they fought them.
As I said, there’s a reason the ACLU gives Bernie a 93% rating, and also a reason pro-Palestinian activists like Rania Khalek are pretty positive about Bernie. Both the ACLU and Khalek assess Bernie’s whole record.
“…….Mr. Speaker, it is my firm belief that clearly, there are some people
in our society who are horribly violent, who are deeply sick and
sociopathic, and clearly these people must be put behind bars in order
to protect society from them…..”
The only line that mattered when it came time to caste his vote. Greenwald was either ignorant (in his haste to condemn Hillary) or thought no one bothered to fact check anymore. I suspect the former.
Um, Dan Froomkin wrote the column. And few people would disagree with the part of Sanders’ speech you quote.
Yes THIS column, but Glenn wrote the article which condemned Hillary for lobbying for the 1994 crime bill. – the one voted “yea” by Sanders and yea by 26 out of 38 members of the Congressional Black Caucus.
Oh, yes. She did, indeed, lobby hard for that wretched thing. Sanders tried to amend it. He certainly did not lobby for that version of a crime bill, and voted against a similar one three years before.
You remind me of a lawyer Mona. She might have lobbied her (then) little ass off, but Bernie voted for the bill and 26 out of 38 members of the Congressional Black Caucus also voted for the bill – a minor oversight on the part of Greenwald.
Greenwald will always be lawyer first, journalist a distant second.
Thanks Mona.
NOBODY has to do a “hit job” on Hillary Clinton!
All her wounds are SELF-INFLICTED!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dY77j6uBHI&feature=youtu.be
Jeesh!
At the very least don’t let Victoria Nuland (spouse of Robert Kagan) or Samantha Power (spouse of Cass Sunstein) anywhere near Bernie’s foreign policy advisors if he is elected.
Be sure and follow the link in Dan’s last paragraph. It’s (probably) Judy Woodruff saying “Oh God” when Bernie brings up Kissinger and Vietnam.
It was a long, long time ago, when dinosaurs like Bernie and Henry stalked the earth and liberals still lived in holes in the ground. Who cares?
Bernie Sanders is correct period .He did vote against the Iraq war and Hillary supported the Bush war its that simple.She was a former Republican when she was in college Bernie was involved in the Civil Rights Movement .Join the Political Revolution .I will never support Hillary who is backed by Big Banks and wall Street not to mention she is under FBI Investigation for her emails.
Excellent piece Dan. The fact that Hillary is smitten by Henry Kissinger is astonishing and speaks volumes about her mindset and DC establishment insularity (your point really) Someone should tell dear Hillary that the rest of the world considers the guy (Hak) to be a terribly flawed policy strategist and vile war criminal, accent on the latter. I hope Bernie continues to rub K in her face, so deserving.
Sure, but it’s probably sufficient to look at Hillary’s own record of war criminality and sociopathy as secretary of state. No one said she could legally go into Libya and kill its head of state. Plus she was very happy with her behavior: “We came, we saw, he died.” She can’t even see that the state is not supposed to kill people, at least not without due process.
Jose
Agree.
I think Hillary believes she appears strong if she embraces every military misadventure that comes down the pike. Before she chortled over Qadaffi being killed, she hosted his son at the State Department and gushed over Qadaffi’s important role in the region. Zero credibility.
I was going to write a horror novel once called “The Dead of Night.” Its main character was based on Henry. Kissenger/Dr Strangelove.
He’s old now and bound to a wheelchair. A reporter doing a biography keeps asking him questions and through a series of flashbacks the story emerges. Meanwhile, premonitions of death are everywhere. Paranoid, he lives in terror of dying and facing his final judgement. He has nightmares of the people he betrayed and wakes from a particularly nasty nightmare demands that security check the grounds, but they find nothing. He returns to his bedroom where he finds…
We get strange paranormal intimations of the evil curse laid upon him by the POWs he betrayed. This goes on for while building tension. Eventually, he somehow ends up outdoors in his wheelchair late at night in the fog surrounded by the dead. both Vietnamese and American POWs . They stand silent, accusing him while tries to explain himself.
“It vas for ze greater good.” You think I am sorry?” “You fools! I would do it again, a thousand time.” “Who are you? “You are nothing!” “You are nobodies!” “It’s people like me who create history, who make history.”
But only silence answers him.
Then there is a terrible scream while he probably dragged to Hell. The mist obscures it all so we can’t really know. But I guessing Hell.
… that terrible scream was the dying breath of yet another brown child sacrificed on the alter of U$A imperialism.
Kissinger then drains and drinks the blood of the brown child, thus giving him – and the U$A – another minute as head of the Empire.
he then mutters his prayer-like mantra once more:
“It vas for ze greater good.” You think I am sorry?” “You fools! I would do it again, a thousand time.” “Who are you? “You are nothing!” “You are nobodies!” “It’s people like me who create history, who make history.”
Thank you Dan Froomkin for providing this synopsis; though I am old and I lived through the Kissinger era(s), many of my younger colleagues are unfamiliar with Kissinger, the unfortunate groundwork he laid, the tragic consequences, and his continued influence. Your article provides a much needed “go to” reference that I can pass along.
Simply brilliant! I wish every American voter reads this before deciding which way to vote. It unmasks Hillary Clinton exceptionally. This is someone who supposed to match into the presidency with a song. But no, comes Bernie Sanders. Thanks a lot Dan
I would say that Sanders’ repeated votes for , “defense” spending, military intervention, including for area bombing of Yugoslavia and funding for the Iraq war he brags about voting against, together with his support of targeted killing by drone (among other things), are central to understanding that there really isn’t much difference between Clinton and Sanders when it comes to foreign policy, war and war crimes.
“I think we have to use drones very, very selectively and effectively. That has not always been the case. What you can argue is that there are times and places where drone attacks have been effective.”
~ Bernie Sanders interview with George Stephanopoulos, 8/30/2015
You believe you are making a point.
So do I.
Maybe you two could meet for lunch some time
Yes, I do believe I’m making a point. An extremely important one.
You are stupid and industrious; the worst.
Unless you provide the entire text of the bill you have no idea what the bill actually achieved. The bill title has virtually nothing to do with the content.
That is another issue but you are reading too much into Sander’s’ votes based on bill title.
Listen to Bernie argue against the 94 crime bill while Hillary was full bore in support.
“That is another issue but you are reading too much into Sander’s’ votes based on bill title.”
I beg your pardon? I’ve read the bills and summarized the relevant content. If you want to read the entire text (as you obviously have not and thus have no basis to take exception to my characterization) and challenge my summaries, feel free. Be forewarned: I do my homework.
” Listen to Bernie argue against the 94 crime bill while Hillary was full bore in support.”
Ha! Are you referring to HR 4092 , the “Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994?”
The bill that provided, inter alia:
* Requires a mandatory life sentence in prison to any individual who is convicted of committing their third serious violent or drug-related crime.
* Increases the number of crimes subject to the death penalty, including crimes where no one is killed.
* Prohibits the imposition of the death penalty on the basis of race, religion, national origin, or sex.
* Reduces the age at which a juvenile may be tried as an adult in court for committing a violent crime from 15 years of age to 13.
* Provides $13.5 billion for the development, expansion, modification, and operation of prisons.
* Provides $9.04 billion for crime prevention and rehabilitation programs.
* Provides $3.45 billion for an increase in police presence, hiring and training officers, and developing cooperative efforts between law enforcement agencies and local citizens.
That 1994 crime bill? Sanders voted for it.
he argued for changes to avoid the obvious potential problem, Hillary cheer-leaded all the way. Thom Hartman has the clip from 2 days ago.
Your homework is pulling bill titles and yelling “See!”.
Bills are written to be changed, often contain necessary provisions as well as onerous ones.
Sanders speaks more truth than Hillary. You will never change that meme no matter how hard you try.
Actually, he is making a good point and one that voters should be fully aware of. Sanders’ actions in the realm of support for the military are deserving of exploration and, in most instances noted above, condemnation.
However, Doug – or someone – seems to have editorialized within the blockquotes. And there is no link providing us with an opportunity to examine the evidence independently, so I would only ask that he make distinctions between the facts and his (or whomever’s) concerns over them and give us the link as well.
For myself, I am not happy with everything that Sanders brings to the table. I’m greatly concerned over the same issues that Doug lists here. I also brought concerns expressed at the Black Agenda Report to these threads early in his candidacy. While not discarding any of those cautions, I have decided to support Sanders in the primary.
Why? Because his candidacy brings long overdue much needed exposure and pushback to the crimes of Wall St. and the failings of the campaign finance system. If we can’t get that fixed, then we’ll be defeated in ever getting electoral government to take our concerns seriously. He is giving voice to the disenfranchised and showing he is willing to listen and let them participate in teaching him about their lives and issues. He is demonstrably not beholden to the high spenders who seek to control government through corruption and he seeks to involve everyone in the process, inclusion not exclusion. He is doing and saying things that he has an equally long record of votes on that would be GOOD for this country.
Do I think he will solve many, or even some of these issues, probably not but he can jumpstart the YUUGE uphill battle. Do I think he will try? Probably so, because these are battles he’s been fighting and especially if he is held accountable by those voting for him (something that woefully fell by the wayside with Obama).
Irrespective of that, my vote for him is an indicator from me, however small and insignificant, that I approve of some of what he stands for and a repudiation, again however small and insignificant, of almost everything that Hillary Clinton stands for. That’s a message the Democratic party establishment has needed to have shoved down their insipid throats and up their snotty privileged noses for a very long time.
Doug’s critique is valid. But it applies even more to Clinton. Way, way more. And for me, for the primary, that is (at the moment) enough.
What happens after the primary? I don’t know, I’m not really thinking much further than this first important step. But I am fortunate to be in a state that will include other options on the Presidential ballot. In the past presidential races I have voted for such diverse candidates as Dennis Kucinich, Cynthia McKinney and Jill Stein. And it won’t take much for me to go there again.
But in the meantime I can, and will, participate in the primary to the extent possible in order to subvert the process the DNC seems to prefer, a smug coronation of the candidate that our self-declared betters have decided we should swallow without examination or complaint, all the while expecting us to choke out from around the rancid shit they shovel unceasingly into our mouths, “Please, Sir, may I have another”.
@ Pedinska
What you said. This is why Bernie’s sort of “incrementalism” or “lesser evilism” is the only one I’ll tolerate. It is the only one, and despite his personal imperfections as a voting/governing human being, who is trying to show, cajole or motivate large numbers of people to sit up, take notice, get involved and take some stands.
He’s fighting the one fight he thinks he can get traction on across a broad spectrum of America–domestic economic policies and civil rights. I think he thinks if he can win some battles there and show the connections between domestic and “foreign policy” some light bulbs will start going off in millions of peoples heads about what our “foreign policy” is really all about and how that impairs our ability to have an inclusive domestic economic policy at home.
IMHO that’s one of the few ways short of America’s economic collapse or military defeat that Americans, and particularly young Americans will ever start agitating effectively against the status quo in both arenas.
He’s fighting the one fight he thinks he can get traction on across a broad spectrum of America–domestic economic policies and civil rights. I think he thinks if he can win some battles there and show the connections between domestic and “foreign policy” some light bulbs will start going off in millions of peoples heads about what our “foreign policy” is really all about and how that impairs our ability to have an inclusive domestic economic policy at home.
Yes. Obama misled and lied and people were understandably angry, bitter in my case. But the problem was that he got people thinking. Some people decided to abstain, separate themselves from a process they perceive (accurately) as rigged. Likely beyond hope. But other people were thinking about what kind of society they would prefer, and I don’t think they gave those ideas up just because he decided to compromise heavily, without their consent, on their behalf.
Unlike Obama, Bernie’s record is very much out there for folks to see (insert plea for links when referencing). That’s been clearly pointed out in these last couple articles on the topic. So we know which areas will need most pressure delivered with optimal fucktitude. But we won’t be able to do any of this if we don’t at least help put that guy into the hot seat, as opposed to just accepting Clinton’s coronation. One, I might add, whose outlines are as plain as craggy tracings of Kissinger’s face.
Look, it’s only going to take me a brief part of my day to exercise my rights as a citizen, and I can’t vote in a primary for any of the third party candidates that I keep tabs on, so I vote where I think it will be most disruptive to the PTB and/or who will further objectives I value. To whatever extent someone else believes that is an illusion, fine. I can respect that, it’s just not the path I choose to tread (yet, who knows?). In the meantime, I continue to read and educate myself…it takes a lot of effort to keep up with this stuff (another plea for links supporting points/assertions).
I share my support among candidates that are supporting things I believe in (if not all of the same things, in exactly my order, all the time) and then I go forth and commit as much fuckery as I can wrt the Democratic party in general, while keeping my powder dry for the moment wrt Bernie Sanders. I’m just trying to do my part to whittle this all down to something I think moves power toward us. This, at the very least, looks like an opportunity to move something a little bit further from Clinton’s grasp. I’ll take that, if I can get it but it doesn’t mean I’m satisfied by any means. And if I misjudge, then I’ll change direction and continue.
I value all the fact-based information being shared here.
p.s. It might be just me, but……
1 link = smooth sailing
2 links = who knows???
3 links = purgatory, or maybe a level in Dante’s Inferno. Not sure yet. :-s
I most strongly disagree. Doug has been incessantly posting such misleading commentary and presentation about various Sanders votes as to constitute his lying.
You noted that someone is editorializing in Doug’s list.That’s Doug, and it’s a verbatim list he’s posted at least once before. I’ve already linked to my comment (from another thread) elaborating on what is so wrong with Doug’s take.
I have nothing but contempt for dishonesty, no matter what drives it. Whether it is Team Hillary, the GOP, or in Doug’s case, irrational opposition to Bernie Sanders. (And I’ll react the same if and when I see gross dishonesty from Team Bernie.) If you, Pedinska, vote for Sanders, then Doug decrees that you are a filthy bomber of babies.
He is fundamentally dishonest.
I most strongly disagree.
That’s fine.
Doug has been incessantly posting such misleading commentary and presentation about various Sanders votes as to constitute his lying.
Your opinion. But this was my first time seeing it. I haven’t seen anything that convinces me Doug is lying any more than I’ve seen evidence for the assertions in the piece he linked to. It’s a draw for me at the moment.
That’s Doug, and it’s a verbatim list he’s posted at least once before. I’ve already linked to my comment (from another thread) elaborating on what is so wrong with Doug’s take.
Sorry I haven’t kept up to date on every exchange on all – or even this – thread. I’ll work through them as time, and life, allows.
Folks get to various conclusions in their own time, using their own best judgement, doing the best they can at any given moment. No one else gets to decide that for them.
Pedinska, I didn’t get to this position of utter exasperation with Doug for no reason. He is being grossly dishonest.
For example, he has claimed Sanders voted not to close Gitmo. Well, yes, and so did Russ Feingold. For this reason.
Doug knows this, because I’ve already linked to that, and quoted Glenn’s lengthy quote of Feingold. Doug doesn’t care. He just keeps repeating his grossly misleading BS. That vote was effectively a vote NOT to continue Gitmo, and Doug knows that. (As does Obama, who disingenuously claimed otherwise.)
Pedinska, I didn’t get to this position of utter exasperation with Doug for no reason.
I understand. I’ve been in these threads long enough to have a decent approximation of a handle on the various modus operandi represented herein.
For example, he has claimed Sanders voted not to close Gitmo. Well, yes, and so did Russ Feingold. For this reason.
Look, as I noted, I have missed some of the sausage-making going on in the discussions surrounding these issues. Just like most of us miss the bulk of what goes into the sausage-making in the halls of Congress and so, should be mindful of which aspects of various legislation are good as well as bad.
But I reserve the right to determine the flavor of the offerings on my own, just as you do, and in the time I choose to take to evaluate them. I think pointing out these votes has worth. I also think that drilling down into what prompts them has worth (I don’t fucking want GITMO North either). So I’m not just going to declare for one recipe over the other based simply on a given person’s insistence.
It drives my husband – who has a deep and abiding love for ALL sausage – nuts too, but there you have it.
“However, Doug – or someone – seems to have editorialized within the blockquotes.”
Let me know where you think that happened, except where it is obvious that I’m making a comment or judgment of my own, Pedinska, and I’ll happily provide explanations or citations, as may be appropriate.
As you know, it’s risky to attempt to provide multiple links in posts like this, but I think I’ve provided the titles and bill or resolution numbers for all of the relevant votes. It’s really easy to check those at VoteSmart and/or Congress.gov.
“Doug’s critique is valid. But it applies even more to Clinton. Way, way more.”
Absolutely. But, so what?
“And for me, for the primary, that is (at the moment) enough.”
Pedinska, that’s the “lesser of two baby bombers” approach to voting. If that’s how you make your voting choices, you will always end up with baby bombers.
Of course, it’s possible, even likely, that you’ll end up with a baby bomber in the White House even if you vote for Jill Stein, write in Michael Moore or your cat, or withhold your vote — but at least you won’t have voted for a baby bomber.
I honestly don’t know how you can even consider such a thing, much less attempt to justify it, as almost all here are doing (except for the ones trying to explain it away or deny it). If your principles don’t require drawing a line there, just what sort of principles are they?
You are a contrarian. You tell people to weigh facts and then chide them for following your advice.
What is wrong with you?
I honestly don’t know how you can even consider such a thing, much less attempt to justify it, as almost all here are doing (except for the ones trying to explain it away or deny it). If your principles don’t require drawing a line there, just what sort of principles are they?
As you probably know from being a long term commenter in these threads, my career is in the medical field where the general consensus has long been “do no harm”. As a researcher, however, I also know that in order to find new ways to save the lives of our patients we have had to take great risks. The ethical divide dictates that those who choose to take those risks to try to improve things for others be informed to the best of our ability – of all the foreseeable risks as well as the potential benefits – prior to them consenting to the intervention. Next to informing them of the risks, we are obligated to do everything in our power to minimize any damage that may occur while we seek knowledge and methods in service of making things better.
If we (I refer to my colleagues in HIV research) had chosen to reject every action that had potential for loss morbidity/mortality during the early days when avenues for survival of our patients were non-existent, then many more millions would have died of HIV than already have. But at least we wouldn’t have killed anyone who was already dying of AIDS.
If Sanders had a perfect voting record on foreign policy, but sucked donkey dicks on Wall St would that be any better? I would argue that it is potentially worse. Because until we free our political processes from the immense sums of money from the Wall St/MIC that influence them we will never be able to consider candidates that support all the things that most of us think humane and decent.
To use your framing, which I acknowledge as a paramount issue, the passion of which I will never discount: It matters to me that Sanders has potential to harm fewer babies overall. Since I don’t have someone to vote for in the primary that can or will promise to never harm babies at all ( a situation likely to be different in the general election), I will vote in the primary for the candidate I perceive will do the most to reduce the number of babies dying, as opposed to abstaining and allowing my non-vote to act on behalf of the candidate whom I perceive as actively disdaining whether or not babies die at all.
Madeleine Albright supports Hillary Clinton and vocally repudiates Sanders. That endorsement, and the one from Kissinger – two of the biggest baby killers in history – weighs most heavily on me. If I can, with my primary vote, toss even the smallest of speedbumps into their roadmap for the world, then I’ll do it. Why the fuck wouldn’t I?
I respect your position, but I think that accusing others of voting for a baby bomber (even in the service of trying to reduce that harm somewhere, somehow), while not acknowledging that abdicating from voting in the primary ensures that the wholesale baby bombers will continue unaffected in any way, also entails accepting responsibility.
What does this mean? Yes, Bernie Sanders is rather mainstream, and he is not an absolute pacifist. He was against the Iraq war, but after it had been started, voting against financing would not necessarily have made sense from his position. Of course, he could have voted against it as a sign of protest, but on the whole, Bernie Sanders is rather pragmatic, just not as hawkish as Hillary Clinton.
Most unfortunately, Doug is becoming a troll. He’s spamming his bullshit. I already responded to this last time he did it. To fisk only one of these misleading claims, Doug (again) posts this, verbatim:
I’ve already entirely debunked that.
To preserve thread integrity follow my link; I’m not reposting my reply. Doug should also stop spamming.
To save folks the trouble: Mona’s link is to her post where she simply reiterates Glenn’s defense of Sanders’ and others’ votes against closing Guantanamo. Apparently, it is insufficient for her that I have always acknowledged Glenn’s argument and that most here likely agree with it, although I do not. I suspect she keeps coming back to this point to divert attention from the long list of other votes and statements for which she has prepared no credible response.
As for the contention that posting a list of some of Sanders’ votes relating to war funding and wars themselves (wars in which our forces indisputably committed numerous war crimes) in a thread about “War Crimes” constitutes “spamming” — well, that’s just silly. And Mona has become extraordinarily emotional about challenges to the Sanders Myth in these threads.
Doug, I’m content to let my linked debunking speak for itself. As for the rest of the spam on your list, I could pick more for similar debunking; this is not the first time I’ve shown your copy-paste bullshit is just that.
And Doug, you continue to use words like “emotional” and “hysterical” to describe me and my comments. This is sexist and I’m requesting that you stop.
Finally, and again, please stop spamming your posts.
“As for the rest of the spam on your list, I could pick more for similar debunking . . .”
You could “debunk” the actual record of Sanders’ votes? Go for it, Mona.
I’ll be glad not to describe your responses as “emotional” when I think that term is inappropriate. As long as I think it is applicable, I’ll use it, as I would with anyone to whom I though it applied. I agree that “hysterical” has a sexist etymology, so I’ll try not to use it when describing the statement or actions of posters I know to be female. Unless, of course, such statements or actions are way over the top.
I already have, repeatedly, debunked your spin on several votes. As I said in another thread, you are either dishonest, or so reckless as to be functionally so. Bernie Sanders is too militaristic, and merits scrutiny on that issue. But not lies such as you spew.
I think it is time to ask Glenn to ban him.
Meh, he’s got capital built up that you do not.
Well, he is a “troll” and a “spammer”. Let’s see how long you can hold.
I just want to know how a conscientious objector like Bernie cold be Commander in Chief? How does that even work? That isn’t a luxury a CNC can afford. As soon as he does have to make a tough, and unpopular decision, his followers will do one of two things, makes excuses for him, or burn him at the stake. Welcome to the real world.
So, guilt by association works for ya, huh? I see where Sanders got the smear.
Kissinger’s relationship with the Shah of Iran, over the Nixon and Ford years, was a classic example of single-minded foolishness – he and his neocon friends never imagined that the Shah could be overthrown by a hard-right Islamic movement; they instead believed that leftists with ties to the Soviet Union were the greatest threat to the Shah and hence supported the Shah’s SAVAK (secret police) crackdown on left-wing pro-democracy movements in the region.
This is entirely mirrored with respect to Hillary Clinton’s ties to the anti-democracy regimes of Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Bahrain and Kuwait, and is also seen in the US establishment response to the Arab Spring pro-democracy movement, such as supporting the Saudis when they sent their tanks into Bahrain to crush pro-democracy protests. For example, consider the Clinton-Blair-Qatar connection, reported in The Guardian some time ago, revealing Cheri Blair lobbying Clinton to go to bat for the Royal Family – or look at Saudi investments in the Clinton Foundation.
The entire response to the Arab Spring protests by the US foreign policy establishment was to panic – the last thing they wanted was independent democratic countries with uncooperative leaders (Gaddafi, recall, was entirely cooperative with Blair, Bush and Sarkozy, unlike Saddam – guess who got invaded? Gaddafi, unlike Saddam, had retained stocks of yellowcake uranium and chemical weapons, too).
Now, this is just a stupid foreign policy for the Middle East. Instead, we should think of the Middle East conflict like we think of the Pakistan-India conflict – where we don’t side with either country, but instead push for a peaceful resolution of their differences – and this works, just look at the recent friendly meeting of the two heads of state of India and Pakistan (though that was something they seemed to have set up on their own). Why can’t we urge the Saudis, the Israelis, Syria and Iran to take a similar approach?
Now, there is at least one rational U.S. politician who favors this approach – Hawaii’s Democratic Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard, who has a far better grasp of what good foreign policy means that Clinton does- why can’t we get a woman like this running for President, instead of a Kissinger-worshipper?
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-11-21/us-congresswoman-introduces-bill-stop-illegal-war-assad-says-cia-ops-must-stop
In retaliation for her sensible viewpoint (on this issue, as well as on the limited debates) the DNC locked Gabbard, who is a vice chair of the Democratic National Committee, out of debates – again, the sleazy action of Representative Debbie Wasserman Schultz, acting on behalf of Clinton.
Fitting to this article and for this comment thread: <a href="http://mondoweiss.net/2016/02/the-list-of-foreign-policy-experts-bernie-sanders-should-be-consulting/"Mondoweiss List of foreign policy "experts" Sanders should be consulting
Glenn Greenwald is included on that list.
Hawaii’s Tulsi Gabbard would make a good adviser. No, she’s not one of the crusty old Machiavellians like Kissinger, but having actually spent time in Iraq, she appears to understand the realities far better than they do, and is willing to challenge the likes of Ashton Carter on their poorly-considered policy decisions. For example:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3342269/Democratic-Rep-warns-Obama-s-decision-fighter-jets-target-Russian-planes-Syria-Turkey-border-start-devastating-nuclear-war.html
While some people get hung up on Kissinger as a war criminal, there is no denying his amazing strategic vision. The world’s idealists may sometimes be blinded by their own optimism, but a realist like Kissinger is fortunately immune to wishful thinking. As he wrote in 2005:
… advances in “democracy” indeed – dream on.
… y’all have a pretty strange definition of “democracy” (nothing like that of your beloved Founding Fathers – about which we hear ‘ad nauseam’ – and who would all be twerking in their graves at what y’all call “democracy, and at what the U$A has become).
with all the anti-Islam rant than emanates from the good ol’ U$A, i’m kinda amazed that advances in “democracy” are welcome.
ironically, your advances in “democracy” regularly include the support of Muslim dictators over the will of the people. In the case of East Timor (look it up y’all … yes, it does exist … and no, it’s not in Central America !!) – and to a lesser extent Lebanon – the promotion of the Islamic Dictator / Theocracy over the Christian citizens (you know, the citizens who make up the voting public in a “democracy” … and oh they’re Christians and therefore worth more than Muslims … or so your M$M would have you believe) to further the global interests of the corporations and imperialist aspirations of the “fake U$A” (as Clark would put it).
if Kissinger’s strategic vision is so amazing, why is Empire U$A such a maligned entity?
… from outside the empire looking in, it would appear as though you are terminally ill and desperately thrashing about … willing to sacrifice anyone an everyone else to hide the fact that your grip is loosening.
y’all have been duped.
… the U$A has become the global clearing house for money laundered from the global population to big corporate interests – and when you trace the owners of these corporation you find the same few holding the money bag open.
check the major shareholders in any bank in the world – it always the same few. go look at the major shareholders of any of the top companies listed on your stock exchanges (outside the U$A) … the same few own the majority share of the lot.
go on – go look … it’s all there and easy to find (unless you want to remain in denial – in which case return immediately to your cable television, prozac and fast food coma – and dont you dare look away from the FOX bimbo threatening to Sharon Stone the camera – that’s so you cant even concentrate long enough to risk thinking what might actually be happening … aaaahhhhh !!)
pretty soon the Global Financiers will abandon the U$A altogether – having served your purpose you will be left with spoiled land, poisoned water an a population armed to the back teeth and simultaneously withdrawing from anti-depressants. cant wait to view the footage y’all capture on your smart devices – will there be a comments section – or is that tooooooo bad taste?
i will concede Benito Mussolini, at least you have the decency of hiding behind a moniker that is not some glum and boring Founding Father name … most of the posts under those names would earn a bullet between the eyes from their namesakes (where-as your idol would more likely award a medal for your pro-Kissinger post… and perhaps a nice new Hugo Boss suit on which your shiny medal can be displayed with pride.)
In the Democratic PBS debate, Hillary Clinton said Henry Kissinger opened-up China and Bernie Sanders did not correct her. President Nixon wanted to open-up China and Kissinger did not want to but followed Nixon’s lead.
Kissinger was not religiously listened to by Nixon, and Kissinger was not a foreign-policy leader in the Nixon white house? Because he was a Jew? –Martin Serna
Remind me never to make Froomkin mad at me.
The only man ever to have confronted Kissinger face to face for his war crimes: http://goo.gl/M9HXJk
How unbelievably mean-spirited an appraisal of Kissinger! It completely overlooks — or downright ignores — his earnest attempt with his close buddy the late Ahmet Ertegun, a co-founder of Atlantic Records, to launch soccer in the USA and to enshrine it as a national game, like baseball, basketball, and American football. Shame on you Froomk!
Yeah, right on, but in collaboration with Ahmet’s Atco brother Nesuhi, too.
See Wikipedia’s bio of Steve Ross (Time Warner CEO).
What’s Bernie’s position on soccer: pro or anti Kissinger. Anybody know?
Foreign policy advisers: Bring back Chas Freeman. And bring in Andrew Bacevich.
There is an ongoing debate as to whether the character of Dr. Strangelove was patterned after Henry Kissinger or Edward Teller. Certainly, from the point of view of technical knowledge, Teller would get the nod, but I prefer Kissinger for the diabolical Wweltanschauung Strangelove displays. Also, the accent.
It’s too band Kissinger is Jewish. He would have been so much better a foreign minister than Ribbentrop.
“There is an ongoing debate as to whether the character of Dr. Strangelove was patterned after Henry Kissinger or Edward Teller. Certainly, from the point of view of technical knowledge, Teller would get the nod, but I prefer Kissinger for the diabolical Wweltanschauung Strangelove displays. Also, the accent. ”
Not much of a debate… The movie was made in ’63. At that time, Henry was still an obscure, Harvard professor.
Dr. Strangelove was part Herman Khan, part Wernher Von Braun, part John von Neumann, and part Edward Teller.
Allende, BTW, even though commonly regarded as a “communist” by the US government at the time, was very much a “New Deal” sort of reformer — a democratic socialist if you will, you know, like Bernie Sanders.
Fortunately for Sanders, the US doesn’t have a US embassy.
But it does have super-delegates, brokered conventions, the electoral college, ‘defective’ voting machines, the Supreme Court and other controls to protect itself against an outbreak of the democracy virus.
And if he manages to get elected, he’ll face an even bigger challenge (not the one usually considered): The business class will do everything it can to destroy his reputation. The propaganda will be rampant. The corporate media will become adversarial to government. Any misstep will be amplified. Attacks will come from the left and the right. That’s how Allende’s support was softened in preparation for the coup.
Yes it does and they even offer tours …
As Kissinger said about Chile:
Obviously, as the world’s most powerful nation, the issues facing the US are even more important – too important for the American voters to be left to decide for themselves.
@Benito-wow, Kissinger thinks really high of himself. What makes a person believe that he knows whats best for a country on the other hemisphere? Is it the milk in his cereal? Unbelievable!
I think it’s high time Kissinger get the full Cosby-style re-evaluation, preferably commencing in complete denunciation.
If we’re gonna dream, can’t we dream ISIS will host him for a barbeque? (No, I don’t think ISIS particularly wants him. But maybe they kidnap one of Sarah Palin’s sled dogs and we could negotiate a prisoner exchange?)
I think it might be a good idea if The Intercept would set up a webring with The Nation, maybe ProPublica, various others. You could have a little section off someplace where you link each others’ current headlines, or if that seems too addy, maybe set up a common index site. The news feed here is pretty intermittent, long periods of no change separated by sudden bursts of new stories, and a feed like that would help average it out in a larger flow. (Yeah, I said webring. There’s no idea in 1990s Internet that isn’t better than any idea in 2010s Internet, except maybe flashing text)
Um, I liked the flashing text.
Dr. Killinger is as evil as human beings come. Like Hitler, he never pulled the trigger himself but millions died because of him. The fact that Clinton talks to him should disqualify her from dog catcher. I almost threw up watching the Black caucus support her. In her own book , she was a “Goldwater girl” worked for Ford and Nelson Rockefeller so I don’t know where John Lewis would have seen her. I remember her husband, the scum bag, slick willie who somehow is so charming, intelligent women still like him. He cut off welfare as we know it, reduced government as we knew it, shipped Black jobs out of the country, put 100,000 cops on the streets to imprison mostly black kids doing dope. Don’t forget, he and Greenspan ended Glass Spiegal among other bankster turning loose crimes. Deported millions of Hispanics; sanctioned Iraq so bad hundreds of thousands of Iraqi kids died and his S of S Madalyn Albright said in public “it was worth it”. The fact that scum like her and Killinger live long lives proves the absence of a decent god. PBS and NPR supported the Iraqi wars and that was before they went commercial. There is no honest news on TV, you have to go on line, big brother corporation control’s the public media. I’m reading Bernie’s book now, well worth the time. I read Trumps book too and a biography on Obama (The Bridge); a bridge alright, a Tom made it to the White House where he and his Tom AG allowed millions of his kin to be kicked out of their houses and made the banksters even more rich and powerful. What fools these mortals be. Did anyone say Libya, “We came, we conquered, he died” a rough quote from Ms. Clinton. She could be Macbeth’s wife and dash a child from her sociopathic breast.
Well said. The CBC is a dying dinosaur which Hillary is welcome to devour to the gristle. Blacks are waking from their slumber and will eventually overwhelmingly support Sanders, Trump or Kasich if another leader doesn’t soon emerge.
Just to note, the CBC PAC endorsed her, and several CBC members, including Keith Ellison and Barbara Lee, have said they were not polled or consulted. The PAC is not the CBC. The PAC is staffed by lobbyists.
Nice work, Mr. Froomkin
We have been at war for so long it is hard to imagine another policy. Obama said he would end the war in Afghanistan. Doesn’t look like it will happen on his watch. We are stuck there.
I don’t know of anyone that would make a good secretary of state. The situation is so poisoned there are no really good answers. Which is why Bernie’s is having trouble coming up some good answers. How does anybody “fix” Libya? The neocons essentially own American Foreign Policy. Everybody drinks the neocon koolaid.
Al Gore might have been a good choice once, maybe. Chuck Hagel maybe? Colin Powell maybe? Alan Grayson is perhaps too impolitic and direct. Weslly Clarke? Jack Webb? Max Cleland? Maybe Cynthia McKinney?
The bit about Nixon letting the war drag on for five years is a little off. He actually did end the war, badly, but he ended it.
Did we live on the same planet?
Here on the planet I live on, Obama said, specifically, in the 2008 presidential debates that he would reduce our presence in Iraq and escalate Afghanistan. Now, perhaps that excalation was meant to end the war, but it sure would have been easier to just de-escalate it. After all, the CIA had poppy production back up to pre-Taliban levels by 2003.
Here on the planet I live on, the Vietnam War could have been ended in 1968, surely by 1970, except the US establishment just didn’t want to lose and was making too much money, not winning, anyway.
Here on the planet I live on, we didn’t get out of Vietnam until a year after Nixon resigned.
Well, apparently the planet you live on is not earth, because the last US troops left Vietnam on March 29, 1973 and Nixon resigned on August 9, 1974. And as far as Obama is concerned, your recollection is wrong also; the surge was not planned until late 2009 (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/06/world/asia/06reconstruct.html?_r=0).
I suppose on the planet you live on, Obama did not escalate drone warfare, even to the extent of targeting US citizens (denying them their right under the Constitution to due process), widening surveillance against people throughout the world, and continued militarization of the police. My, what a wonderful world you must live on!
“Well, apparently the planet you live on is not earth, because the last US troops left Vietnam on March 29, 1973 and Nixon resigned on August 9, 1974.”
Conventional ground-pounders left in ’73. The US had a presence in Vietnam past the fall of Saigon (29 April ’75), and through part of the Summer (that I know of).
If Bernie Sanders would just adopt the foreign policy views of Ron Paul, that would be more than one could reasonably hope for.
The Green Shadow Cabinet has two Secretaries of State that would work for me: Medea Benjamin and Ann Wright.
http://greenshadowcabinet.us/members
Here’s what I find most extraordinary about this.
Back in 2008, Hillary Clinton’s stance on her Iraq War vote cost her heavily. I reckon she’d have walked the nomination were it not for this issue, but regardless, it was hugely damaging to her.
8 years later, she’s here again, essentially painting herself into the name neo-conservative box. Does she not recognize how deeply the Democratic base abhors the militarism it represents? Or does she simply not care? For someone who is by all accounts a careful and calculating politician, I just don’t get it. I hate the neoconservative militarism, but I simply don’t understand a Democratic politician, in primary mode, not distancing themselves from it. Are they still haunted by McGovern?
Hillary Clinton didn’t even understand in 2008 how abhorrent and repulsive her militaristic mindset was, let alone 8 years later.
This quote she made on April 24, 2008, made it forever impossible for me to vote for her:
“I want the Iranians to know, if I am the president, we will attack Iran. And I want them to understand that, because it does mean that they have to look very carefully at their society, because at whatever stage of development they might be with their nuclear weapons program in the next 10 years, during which they might foolishly consider launching an attack on Israel, we would be able to totally obliterate them.”
That anyone could talk so flippantly about inflicting a nuclear holocaust on the 77 million innocent civilians in Iran should never be allowed anywhere near the White House. Her grotesque BFF relationship with Kissinger should alarm anyone with a conscience or sense of human decency.
Just two months ago she also made this ‘Freudian slip':
“The nuclear option would not be taken off the table”
– Hillary Clinton
December 6, 2015
She can go fuck herself. They can all me a “Bernie Bros” or any other blatantly sexist slur they want, Hillary Clinton, like Cheney, Kissinger, Cruz, et.al. has no conscience, ethics or morals. She is a pandering, political opportunist who would use war as a political weapon exactly as George W Bush did, with no regard whatsoever to the men, women, children, and babies she would annihilate without a second’s thought.
Hi Luther,
I found another part of the debate very revealing. In his comments warning about Hillary Clinton’s readiness to support ‘regime change’, Bernie Sanders commented on the consequences of the US complicity in the overthrow of Mosaddegh in Iran. The US support for the overthrow of Mossaddeh and the US support for the Shah’s arrest, torture, and murder of Iranian social justice activists, created the animosity and political vacuum that enabled the subsequent Iranian revolution to be taken over by religious fundamentalists. Hillary Clinton chose to refrain from discussing this topic.
Hi Steve,
Yes, there’s a lot of ample ground for Hillary to be dissected on. Bernie Sanders is being much more of a gentleman than he needs to be for some people to understand just how horrible Hillary Clinton’s pro-war mindset is. It’s become very annoying to hear the repetition of “whether it’s Clinton or Sanders, they’re not that far apart ideologically.” On a very fundamental, human level their worldviews are not the same.
At a time when the GOP is in complete disarray, the Democratic Party has an opportunity to push for a truly progressive candidate to bring about the changes that Barack Obama would not or could not, so for the party establishment to be pushing someone who is not at all progressive (even saying that we’ll never have universal healthcare), is infuriating.
John Foster Dulles was about as evil and short-sighted a Secretary of State as Kissinger, and set us up for disasters in Iran, Vietnam, and various other places that Kissinger compounded. But hey, Kissinger was a creative dude, and caused a lot of problems without Dulles’s help as well.
Indeed, both men would give Hillary a run for her money for the distinction as the worst secretary of state of all time.
But that’s the inherent contradiction – I don’t understand how she can be “a pandering, political opportunist”, and, during the Democratic primary, a buddy of Kissinger and (previously) a defender of a decision to vote for the Iraq War.
I just have no comprehension why she isn’t trying to distance herself from this part of her record, especially given the experience from 2008.
Haim Saban is as big on Israel as Adelson.
Not that I’m complaining about the massive influence these foreigners have on US politics … Israel should be first …
As the Donald said,”she’s evil.”
There were very good reasons to support Obama over Clinton in 2008, even though Obama didn’t live up to them once he got into office. She’s even got the same foreign policy advisors as a couple of the Republican candidates.
Obama showed he was a neo-con before he was elected.
And PBS’s response to the “Oh God” thing is, OF COURSE, a denial that they meant anything political.
Now where can I buy some of that bargain swampland in Florida?
The extent to which China and Russia are failing to live
up to becoming more egalitarian societies can be traced
to the extent that they have adopted Kissinger-istic
beliefs in China and Larry Summers’ style of
Kissinger-istic beliefs in Russia.
These two failures represent the very narrow path of domination
by elitist predators which is central to the
“exceptional” bipartisanship
which masquerades as government in the fake U$A.
Consider the fact that
if the celebrated Vietnam Veterans Memorial in Washington
was re-designed to include ALL of the deaths which resulted
from that war for capitalist domination of the planet,
the memorial would have to be approximately 20 times larger.
As it is, it is miserable failure at telling the whole truth, just like
Kissinger and his bipartisan ass-kissers.
China never aspired to being a more egalitarian society. Class warfare there was a cover for establishing absolutist orthodoxy for Mao’s lineage.But you still have a very valid point: To wit, that Kissinger has subsequently encouraged the most venal aspects of Chinese leadership, by showing that the US — China’s only legitimate rival for world hegemon — was always open to amoral compromise through the good offices of Kissinger & Associates.
Yes, that’s right folks – government agents would never, ever engage in a nefarious “conspiracy” detrimental to the citizens they represent…NEVER!!!
https://www.rt.com/usa/332264-republicans-iran-prisoner-swap/
Members of the US Republican Party asked Iranian officials to delay a recent prisoner swap until after the November presidential election because they were worried about Obama winning a public victory ahead of the polls, according to an Iranian admiral.
“We were carrying out negotiations with the Obama administration, when representatives of the Republican Party got in touch with us,” Admiral Ali Shamkhani, secretary of the Supreme National Security Council of Iran, told France 24. “As a favor, they asked us to do what we could to hinder the talks and to push them back until after the next US presidential elections – in other words, after President Obama’s departure.”
Anyone interested in the roots of the current Middle East conflict and the role Kissinger played in it should read Andrew Scott Cooper’s “The Oil Kings: How the U.S., Iran, and Saudi Arabia Changed the Balance of Power in the Middle East.” If you’ve got an hour free, see his talk about the book (notably, Kissinger refused to be interviewed by Cooper):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqe4_HOR5u4
The ‘roots’ of the current middle-east conflict – and those prior and future – can be attributed to one single entity: Israel
Ah, yes. If only Israel had so polite as to have allowed itself to be destroyed, everything would be so nice. How rude.
Ha!
Yes, indeed.
Instead, it is the land of Palestine that has been destroyed and defiled, and its prior inhabitants killed, tortured, run-off their lands and penned-up in their open-air prison…
Israel was targeted for destruction because Zionists committed terrorism, ethic cleansing and theft to establish itself. Israel is a problem. Not the only one in the Middle East, but a huge one.
Israel wiped Palestine off the world map in 1948.
Although Israel certainly deserves its fair share of the blame for the situation in the Middle East, the real villains are the British (especially) and the French. Briefly, they along with Tsarist Russia spent most of World War I salivating over the region, hatching plans to carve the Ottoman Empire up for themselves. The revolution in Russia took them out of the picture, and so the formation of the post-world war I Middle East was per the Sikes-Picot agreement. The only part of the region that retained any degree of local coherence was Saudi Arabia because the Sauds were allies of the British. The Sikes-Picot agreement also laid the foundation for Zionist settlement of Palestine. After World War II, the US joined with the British and the Zionists to push Israel down the throats of the Palestinians, with consequences that will continue to play out until the US realizes that the support of imperialist, racist regimes is not in our best interest.
Israel is a pretty minor issue in terms of the Iran-Saudi conflict, which is much more like the Pakistan-India conflict. Israel has almost zero influence on the Iran-Saudi rift, which is threatening to bring Russia and America into direct military conflict in Syria, a situation to be avoided at all costs.
Consider that India and Pakistan were basically part of a British imperial protectorate at one time, much as Saudi Arabia and Iran were essentially American protectorates up through 1978 – the Shah and the Saudi Royals relied almost entirely on the USA to maintain their grip on power, and now – as with the British Indian empire – it’s all falling apart.
Israel is basically just a sideshow to the larger regional conflict, much as that small region was during the Lawrence of Arabia period, when the Germans and the British were fighting over access to Gulf oil supplies in World War I.
This is what happens when humans breed with reptiles.
You need to change Lesley Stahl to Judy Woodruff. Stahl works for CBS, and Woodruff for PBS. Woodruff was co-moderator.
Yes, I fixed that almost immediately. Thank you!
I don’t know who is the more sub-human – Kissinger, Cheney or Netanyahu…