THAT “TERRORISM” IS a malleable term of propaganda, with no fixed meaning or consistent application, is now quite well-established. Still, its recent application to a spate of violence targeting Israel’s occupying soldiers in the West Bank is so manipulative and extreme that it’s well worth highlighting.
Israel has militarily occupied the West Bank for decades (it’s also still functionally occupying Gaza, as this two-minute video proves). The West Bank “occupation is illegal under international law and the United Nations has repeatedly told the country’s government to vacate Palestinian territory.” Even ardent defenders of Israel admit that “the West Bank is under a legal regime of belligerent occupation” and “Israel’s settlement enterprise is, and has always been, grossly illegal under international law.” Despite this world consensus, Israeli settlements continue to grow rapidly. Israel is not engaged in any meaningful efforts to negotiate an agreement to end the occupation, and leading Israeli ministers now openly oppose such efforts.
In response to this, there has been a series of attacks over the past year by Palestinians on Israeli occupying soldiers in the West Bank. In the Israeli and American press, the Palestinians attacking these occupying soldiers are invariably called “terrorists” and their attacks are denounced as “terrorism” (“The two soldiers were stabbed while at a guard post at the Har Bracha settlement, located in the northern West Bank. … Troops were searching for the terrorists”).
For those (such as myself) who have long contended that the term “terrorism” now has little meaning beyond “violence by Muslims against the West and its allies,” and no purpose other than to delegitimize violence by one side while legitimizing the other side’s, can there be any better proof than this?
There have been Palestinian attacks on Israeli civilians of course (while far more Palestinian civilians have died at the hands of the Israeli army), but in these specific cases, these Palestinians are attacking purely military targets, not civilians. Those military targets are soldiers deployed to their soil as part of an illegal occupying army. In what conceivable sense can that be “terrorism”? If fighting an occupying army is now “terrorism” simply because the army belongs to Israel and the attackers are Palestinian, is it not incredibly obvious how this term is exploited?
The U.S. has frequently done the same: invade and occupy countries such as Iraq and Afghanistan and then label anyone who fights their occupying armies as “terrorists,” even putting some in Guantánamo for that. Similarly, attacks against military bases of the U.S., U.K., and other Western countries are routinely labeled “terrorism.”
Needless to say, both Americans and Israelis (along with most others in the world) reserve for themselves the absolute right to fight against any foreign army that occupies their land. Indeed, Hollywood, in the 1980s, produced a film called Red Dawn, which imagined an occupation of the U.S. by the Soviet Union and its Nicaraguan and Cuban allies. It told the story of the heroic U.S. citizens, led by high school students, who waged a guerrilla war against the occupying troops, killing dozens upon dozens of them. Imagine the widespread confusion, and outrage, that would have resulted if someone accused the filmmakers of glorifying “terrorism” by demonizing the fictional American resisters as “terrorists”:
The film was updated in 2012 with a sequel depicting “one group of unlikely [American] heroes” who waged guerrilla warfare against North Korean forces who had invaded and occupied the U.S. (the film originally depicted these American heroes attacking and killing an occupying army from China, but, in post-production, the producers changed the identity of the occupiers to North Korean in order to preserve access to Chinese theaters):
When Americans resist military occupation by fighting against occupying troops on their soil, they are noble heroes. But when Palestinians do this, they are “terrorists.” This discourse, by design, equates Palestinians resisting occupation by fighting against an occupying army with al Qaeda and ISIS, and thus posits that any use of force by Palestinians to resist Israeli occupation — even when done on Palestinian soil, aimed exclusively at Israeli military targets there — is illegitimate.
So if violent resistance is illegitimate “terrorism,” what about other alternatives for resisting the decades-old, still-expanding illegal Israeli occupation? The nonviolent route embraced by Palestinian activists and their anti-occupation allies around the world is a campaign of boycott, sanctions, and divestment (BDS) aimed at Israel, modeled after the campaign that helped end South Africa’s apartheid regime in the 1980s (a regime that, just by the way, was a close ally of both the U.S. and Israel).
But there is a highly successful campaign by Israel and its U.S. allies not only to decree this nonviolent boycott campaign illegitimate, but literally to outlaw it. Official bodies are enacting rules to censor and officially suppress it by equating the campaign with “anti-Semitism” even though, as fervent Israel supporter Eric Alterman wrote in the New York Times this week, “it is filled with young Jews.”
The Intercept and other outlets have repeatedly reported on official governmental and university actions to ban BDS activism by equating it with “anti-Semitism.” In California, the regents of the nation’s largest university system just enacted a resolution strongly implying that BDS activism is anti-Semitic and thus in violation of university rules. In New York last week, dozens of state legislators, from both parties, have demanded the de-funding of a pro-Palestinian group at CUNY, a move denounced by the campus free speech group FIRE. Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, when running for office, announced that BDS “has no place on Canadian campuses.” In France, people are literally arrested as criminals under “hate speech” laws for wearing T-shirts advocating BDS. Measures in the U.K. have been enacted to legally bar support for such boycott movements. Laws and proposed bills in Israel ban advocacy of the movement and bar supporters from entering Israel.
So look at what has happened here. When Palestinians fight against occupying troops on their soil, they are denounced — and often killed — as “terrorists.” Meanwhile, nonviolent campaigns to end the occupation through a South Africa-style boycott are demonized as “anti-Semitism” and officially barred — censored — in all sorts of ways, in numerous countries around the world.
If fighting Israeli occupying forces is barred as “terrorism,” and nonviolent boycotts against Israel are barred as “anti-Semitism,” then what is considered a legitimate means for Palestinians and their allies to resist and end the decadeslong, illegal Israeli occupation? The answer is: nothing. Palestinians are obliged to submit to Israeli occupation in a way that none of the people demanding that would ever themselves submit to occupation of their land. All forms of resistance to Israeli occupation are deemed illegitimate. That, manifestly, is the whole point of all of this.
Top photo: Israeli soldiers stand near the body of a Palestinian who was shot and killed by a soldier while lying wounded on the ground after a stabbing attack in Hebron in the West Bank on March 24, 2016.
Mr. Greenwald, I spend time each day pursuing peace and have for over 16 years. It is of little significance. But from my vantage point you cannot write of the current “Knife Intifada”, as resistance or simply attacks on Israeli soldiers. I am including the list of attacks in October 2015 as listed in Wikipedia:
3 October – Lions’ Gate stabbing. A man and others stabbed multiple people in the Jerusalem Old Town, killing 2 and injuring a mother and her toddler. 3 dead (including perpetrator), 2 injured.[61]
4 October – An attack, similar to the Lion’s Gate Stabbing on 3 October, took place when an Israeli teenager was stabbed near the Damascus Gate. 1 dead (perpetrator), 1 injured.[62]
7 October – Israeli woman injured and pulled out of her car in a rock-throwing incident and attempted lynching near Jerusalem.
7 October – Israeli civilian injured in stabbing attack in Old City of Jerusalem. Assailant was shot on site.
7 October – IDF soldier injured in stabbing attack in Kiryat Gat in which assailant stole the soldier’s weapon and was shot on site in a civilian’s apartment.
7 October – A Palestinian woman stabbed an Israeli man, after which the man shot the assailant with his personal gun. 2 injured (including perpetrator).[63]
7 October – A Palestinian stabbed an IDF soldier, after which he was shot dead by special forces. 1 dead (perpetrator), 1 injured.[64]
8 October – Four Israeli civilians and an IDF soldier injured in stabbing attack with screwdriver in central Tel Aviv. Assailant shot on site by an officer in the Israel Air Force.
8 October – Israeli man, 25, seriously hurt in Jerusalem stabbing attack. The attacker was identified as 19-year-old East Jerusalem resident.[65]
8 October – Israeli civilian injured in stabbing attack in Kiryat Arba. Assailant shot on site.
8 October – Israeli civilian injured in stabbing attack in Afula. Assailant shot on site.
9 October – Four Israeli civilians injured in stabbing attack in Dimona. Assailant apprehended on site.
9 October – Teenage Israeli boy stabbed in Jerusalem. 1 injured.[66]
9 October – Israeli police officer injured in stabbing attack in Kiryat Arba. Assailant shot on site.
10 October – IDF soldier injured by gunshot in Kiryat Arba.
10 October – Israeli civilian lightly injured after rocks thrown at bus in Jerusalem.
10 October – Israeli civilian lightly injured from rock attack on Route 60 to Jerusalem.
10 October – Two Israelis injured in stabbing attack in Jerusalem. Assailant shot by the police. 1 dead (perpetrator), 2 injured.[67]
10 October – Three Israeli police officers injured in stabbing attack in Jerusalem.
11 October – Israeli civilian injured by rock throwing in East Jerusalem.
11 October – Israeli civilian injured by rock throwing near Hebron.
11 October – Police officer injured by detonation of gas canister by female Palestinian driver near Ma’ale Adumim. Assailant apprehended on site.
11 October – Three Israeli civilians and an IDF soldier injured in stabbing attack in Gan Shmuel near Hadera. Assailant rammed his car into a soldier before getting out and going on a stabbing spree. Assailant shot on site.
12 October – Female assailant shot after stabbing a border police officer. 2 injured.[68]
12 October – Two Palestinian youths stabbed 2 Israelis in Pisgat Ze’ev. A 13 year old was seriously injured. While trying to escape, one of the assailants, Ahmed Manasrah aged 13, was lightly wounded, the other shot and killed. Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas two days later accused Israel of the “execution of our children in cold blood, as they did with the boy Ahmed Manasrah and other children in Jerusalem and other places.”[69] 3 injured, 1 dead.[70]
12 October – Palestinian man stabbed an IDF soldier on a bus after which he was shot dead by police. 1 dead (perpetrator), 1 injured.[71]
13 October – Israeli civilian injured by rock throwing near Hebron.
13 October – Israeli civilian injured in stabbing attack in Ra’anana. Assailant apprehended on site.
13 October – In shooting and stabbing attack on a bus in Jerusalem, 3 Israelis were killed and 16 others were wounded. The two assailants were shot dead.[72]
13 October – Minutes after the bus attack, a man drove his car into a bus stop, killing a rabbi and injuring 2 others before being shot and killed. 2 dead, 2 injured.[73]
13 October – In a second stabbing attack in Ra’anana, 4 Israeli were injured.[74]
14 October – Assailant shot dead after attempting to stab police officer near Damascus Gate, Jerusalem.[75]
14 October – Assailant shot after stabbing a woman at Jerusalem Central Bus Station. 1 dead (perpetrator), 1 injured.[76]
16 October – Joseph’s Tomb set on fire by Palestinian arsonists. Palestinian forces extinguished fire.
16 October – IDF soldier injured in stabbing attack by assailant disguised as news photographer in Kiryat Arba. Assailant shot on site.
17 October – Israeli Border Policewoman injured in stabbing attack at Cave of Patriarchs in Hebron. Assailant shot on site.
17 October – IDF soldier injured in stabbing attack in Hebron. Assailant shot on site.
17 October – Israeli Border Policeman stabbed at Kalandia Crossing. Assailant shot on site.
18 October – IDF soldier Sgt. Omri Levy z”l killed, four other soldiers and seven Israeli civilians injured in combined shooting and stabbing attack in Be’er Sheva Central Bus Station. Assailant shot on site.
20 October – IDF officer injured in stabbing attack during violent riot near Hebron. Assailant shot on site.
20 October – IDF soldier and Israeli civilian injured in car ramming attack at Gush Etzion Junction. Assailant then attempted to stab the wounded victims but was shot on site.
20 October – IDF soldier injured in stabbing attack in Hebron. Two assailants shot on site.
21 October – Five IDF soldiers injured in car ramming attack near Bethlehem. Assailant shot on site.
21 October – IDF soldier injured in stabbing attack near Jerusalem. Assailant shot on site.
22 October – Israeli civilian injured in stabbing attack in Beit Shemesh. Assailant shot on site.
23 October – IDF soldier injured in stabbing attack near Gush Etzion. Assailant shot on site.
23 October – Mother and her 2 children injured from Molotov cocktail hurled at vehicle near Jerusalem.
25 October – Israeli civilian injured in stabbing attack after exiting his car following rock attack.
25 October – Israeli civilian injured in stabbing attack at Ariel Junction. Assailant apprehended.
26 October – IDF soldier injured in stabbing attack near Hebron. Assailant shot on site.
27 October – IDF soldier injured in stabbing attack at Gush Etzion Junction. Assailant shot on site.
28 October – Israeli civilian injured in stabbing attack outside supermarket in Gush Etzion. Assailant detained on site.
29 October – IDF soldier injured in stabbing attack near the Tomb of the Patriarchs in Hebron. Assailant shot on site.
29 October – Passing vehicle opened fire towards a bus stop near Jerusalem. IDF forces fired towards vehicle.
30 October – 2 Israeli civilians injured in stabbing attack in Jerusalem. Assailant shot on site.
Well, what would you describe these attacks as? Are the attackers, in your mind, just deviant human beings? put yourself in the shoes of Palestinians, who have displaced, humiliated and oppressed for decades, what would you do? Acquiesce without resistance?
I am Irish and having been dominated by the British for hundreds of years, I can tell you that will never happen. They have an inalienable right to freedom from Israeli oppression and you have no right to judge them. Personally, I utterly oppose the use of violence but I do not judge them. When a Palestinian decides to attack a soldier or a civilian he/she knows that they will most likely be killed themselves. As Bob Dylan said “When you have nothing, you have nothing to lose”.
What is racism? -https://jackblueblog.wordpress.com/2016/04/11/an-essay-on-race/
The West Bank and Gaza Strip are Death Camps – nothing more or less. Israelis now perpetuate the horrors of the Holocaust in the name of “Security”. Security for stolen land acquired by deceit and held with murder.
“He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss also gazes into you.”
Of course, if America were to address Israel’s crimes, they would also have to address their own Native crimes. I’m surprised the IDF doesn’t distribute blankets with Smallpox in them. I guess shooting children in the head is more civilized, huh? Anti-Semitism? Y’all wish.
Violent opposition to occupation is the absolute right under Geneva Conventions of the occupied people-you know,the Palestinians. The occupying power does not have a right to self defence-end occupation,then defend your own territory; problem for Israel there of course because they do not acknowledge where the international borders are?(not finished stealing land?). Amusingly though the more they and their wilfully ignorant supporters screech about criticism of the murderous land stealing occupation being anti semitism, the less notice people take. it is a concern though, that universities which used to be a forum for protest are trying to delegitimise legitimate protest. There is a troll on here- hi Gorsky,you hasbara parrot- my advice ignore his feeble ravings it only encourages him.
When I started to speak up against the evils of Zionism I learned to accept being “falsely” called an anti-Semite and learned to let it be like water flowing off a duck. Once a person learns the difference between Judaism, the religion, and Zionism, a political movement, it’s easy to criticize Zionism WITHOUT having a negative view of PEACE LOVING Jewish people. I also realized Christian Zionists may be more dangerous than Jewish Zionists because there are so many more of them. Do they give us war and violence and suppression of people OR PEACE? In summary, we know them by their fruits.
Glen,u are correct & you are wrong at the same time. yes Israel should stop the fighting & make peace but so should the Arab’s.(Think Camp David) As for deciding that Israel is 100% at fault, you are wrong. The Arab’s began this fight by blowing up planes, killing’s in Germany (Olympics) & killing people all over the globe, do you think that’s who they want living next door to them ? BOTH parties share 50% of the blame & BOTH parties share very bad leaders. Lastly when the countries that are condemning Israel occupying like the UK that has been occupying Northern Ireland for centuries gives the land back to Ireland, when Russia gives back the lands they have taken & when the U.S. gives back the whole Southwest then they can complain.
You sound like a zionist, diverting, and blaming Arabs. If Israel ended apartheid and brutal occupation, land theft, home bulldozing, murder on a daily basis, and all people had equal human rights, then there would be no need for resistance. Israel is 100% responsible for the misery and death and destruction it has created. You occupy a people, kill their kids, steal their land and bomb Gaza, then you will see a resistance.
If under international law and UN. warnings Israel keeps on with its attacks on Palestine then the UN. should send in troops and drive them out. also the United States should stop supporting there terrorist actions.
For many American Jews, myself included, Israel is like having a family member who has become a criminal. What do we do? We still believe there is a lot of good in them but we totally disagree with their lifestyle.
Mr. Greenwald is absolutely correct. I don’t believe that the Jews are god’s chosen people, but even if they were (are), we should remember that God abandoned his people numerous times before, allowing their captivity in Babylon and destruction of the temple and eventually the destruction of the Israelite nation by the Romans and the loss of their homeland. History does sometimes repeat itself, and the mad fanaticism of a large segment of Israelis and American Jews are sewing the seeds of another chastisement from God.
Trying to decide if this article is Anti-Semitism or Terror. Lets just go with hate speech.
And you are an enabler…..
Two wrongs never make a right.
There is too much bickering among the “readership.” So, let’s keep this clean and concentrate on the subject, which is “Fighting Israel is Terrorism; Boycott is Anti-Semitism; What’s Allowed.”
I have already said I don’t think Greenwald is a real journalist, because he twists, perverts, omits facts to fit his agenda, which is so extreme that I can’t even call it left wing extreme (certainly it is not right wing extreme). This is rather a Middle Finger Journalism, where Glenn fights for eternal right to insert his middle finger into whatever he deems appropriate. Indeed, this IS his right, but that does not make his writings a real journalism. Now, let’s take a look at some examples.
He writes this: “Even ardent defenders of Israel admit that ‘the West Bank is under a legal regime of belligerent occupation’..” So, here Glenn presents 3 myths:
(i) Violent/Belligerent Israel occupies palestinian land and people;
(ii) This occupation has been legally proclaimed (by the international community) as “belligerent”, which by definition implies extra barbaric acts, as opposed to a “regular” occupation; and
(iii) Israel denies all of this, while the whole world including even ‘ardent defenders of Israel’ know/admit the same.
Now, let’s show why all 3 above are myths.
The use of the term belligerent occupation here tells the reader that the occupying party (Israel) has violently/belligerent_ly occupied palestinian land. After all, when you look at the definition of belligerent, you see ‘hostile’, ‘aggressive’, ‘violent; and naturally most readers think so.
But belligerent occupation under the Haag Conventions of 1899-1907 is a totally different thing: when there is a war, like the one started by the multitude of Arab countries against Israel in 1967, all parties are considered belligerent, because of violent hostilities. In other words, a war is a belligerent action. According to the convention, one or more parties, once they capture lands of another, may claim ‘belligerent occupation” under the Haag convention. That means that the party wants to conduct occupation under International Law with certain rules that provide protection for the occupied party and land. When a party declares belligerent occupation, it states that it has no claim to the land, which is taken temporarily until there is an agreement/peace treaty. This is in fact what Israel openly claimed. By the way, Israel was the first country to do so, unlike Nazi occupation of the whole Europe and a part of the Soviet Union, unlike occupations by Ancient Egypt, Ancient Greece, Roman Empire, Spain, France, Britain and numerous others, you name them. So, you see how Greenwald deceives you. He wants the reader to think that belligerent occupation means especially violent behavior of Israel, while in reality it is a completely different thing. And because Israel openly claimed belligerent occupation, here goes (to garbage can) Israel’s “denial” of occupation and ardent defenders’ admissions. What’s there to admit if you openly proclaimed the same in the first place.
Do you think Greenwald didn’t know what belligerent occupation means? Perhaps, someone may suggest a ‘bad choice of words’… Yes, my foot…
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hague04.asp
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hague02.asp
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzz.
Let me keep this simple for you, simpleton: If Palestine isn’t belligerently occupied, then every Palestinian is an Israeli.
And you can spew your impotent Zionist hasbara all day, and screech about all those mean “anti-Semites” hiding under your bed and in your closet all night, because your precious little Zionist shit stain in the Levant is going to be flushed into the Med, one way or another. Do feel free to jump in after it though, if you’re still feeling needy, anti-Semite.
Speaking of simpletons: Palestine IS under a regime of belligerent occupation. But I have grave doubts you understand what I am talking about. But that’s OK. The only reason I am addressing you (for the last time) is this: you sound awfully a lot like -Mona- who had a short circuit. If that’s the case, I would like to extend to you my sincere humanitarian concern.
Cheers
“But I have grave doubts you understand what I am talking about. But that’s OK.”
Yea, anti-Semite, and when you make statements like: “when there is a war, like the one started by the multitude of Arab countries against Israel in 1967″, I am in no doubt that your ideology has caused you to lose touch with reality, which is not OK.
” The only reason I am addressing you (for the last time) is this: you sound awfully a lot like -Mona- who had a short circuit. If that’s the case, I would like to extend to you my sincere humanitarian concern.”
LMAO…OK, anti-Semite, now go extend to your mother your sincerest apologies, for being such an embarrassment to her.
@LOL
Stabb me. LOL…
Why would I want or do I need to “Stabb” [sic] you, anti-Semite, are you planning to demolish my home and murder my kids?
BDS On Israel. By what standard exactly? Please give me the name of a country where palistinians have more freedom than they have in Israel. A country where they are not subject to arrest and detention and death for writing articles against the government or conducting peaceful protests against the government. Just one. Or a gov where they have better lives, higher standard of living etc. etc.
As to this phrase … submit to occupation of their land.” Their land? When did this land become “theirs” Certainly not before the Israelis conquered it from Jordan. You remember Jordan. The country that invaded Israel. Was anybody asking that jordan give the inhabitants of the west bank their land? I do not recall that. Only when the Jews took over occupation of said land. And I might add, that historically the Jews could just have attached it by right of conquest after Jordan invaded Israel. Remember that?
Oh … and how about the Palistinian charter having as one of its main clauses the elimination of, not only Israel, but of all Jews. Has that EVER been officially renounced and read out of said charter.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Covenant
http://www.algemeiner.com/2013/08/21/the-plo-charter-still-calls-for-israels-destruction/#
really… Have Arabs in General, and Palistinians in particular ever wanted anything except the elimination and destruction, not only of Israel, but of Jews. If they have, then perhaps you can produce some evidence of that. Some. Just a little. As far as I can see all such statements have been in the form of a Truce until the war starts up AGAIN. Show me any part of the arab culture that does not teach all of its children that Jews are the spawn of satan.
Until then — as a Jew. Please keep your ignorant opinions to yourself
“Oh … and how about the Palistinian charter having as one of its main clauses the elimination of, not only Israel, but of all Jews. Has that EVER been officially renounced and read out of said charter.”
LMAO…So the “Hamas charter” is “the Palistinian [sic] charter” now? And who else was the Hamas charter supposed to call for “the elimination” of exactly, Israel aaaaand…the Inuit? So sorry, I must have missed the igloo on the Israeli flag…LOL.
“Have Arabs in General, and Palistinians in particular ever wanted anything except the elimination and destruction, not only of Israel, but of Jews.”
ROFL…Yea, you clueless anti-Semite, and have your foreign Zionist invaders in general, and your illegal Israeli colonizers in particular, ever wanted anything except the elimination and destruction, not only of Palestine, but of Palestinians.
“Show me any part of the arab culture that does not teach all of its children that Jews are the spawn of satan.”
Nobody needs to “show” you anything, and neither Arabs in general, nor Palestinians in particular, owe you a fucking favor, you jumped up little anti-Semite.
“Until then — as a Jew. Please keep your ignorant opinions to yourself”
I don’t care what your religion is, you ignorant Arab and Palestinian hating anti-Semite.
Basically you don’t have a leg to stand on here. Douglas has valid points, he even provides references whereas you just provide insults. Start with some research on Hamas. You can find articles which deal with how Hamas brainwash children or this one about Hamas’ terror tunnels.
“Basically you don’t have a leg to stand on here.”
LMAO…That is just too damned hilarious coming from a mouth-breathing anti-Semite like you, and from someone who basically has to stand on his two little hands to get on here.
“Douglas has valid points, he even provides references whereas you just provide insults.”
Your obnoxious and whiny little Zionist boyfriend Douglas is nothing but a foul mouthed anti-Semite, who’s just here to provide vile anti-Semitic blood libels to smear the indigenous Palestinian Arabs with, and insult my intelligence.
“Start with some research on Hamas.”
ROFL…Start by learning how to stand on your own two feet again, anti-Semite.
“You can find articles which deal with how Hamas brainwash children…or this one about Hamas’ terror tunnels.”
Go share your disgusting, anti-Semitic Zionist filth with your little friends from stormfront, you atrocious little anti-Semite.
“Basically you don’t have a leg to stand on here.”
LMAO…That is just toooooooooo damned hilarious coming from a mouth-breathing anti-Semite like you, and from someone who basically has to stand on his two little hands to get on here.
“Douglas has valid points, he even provides references whereas you just provide insults.”
Your obnoxious and whiny little Zionist boyfriend Douglas is nothing but a foul mouthed anti-Semite, who’s just here to provide vile anti-Semitic blood libels to smear the indigenous Palestinian Arabs with, and insult my intelligence.
“Start with some research on Hamas.”
ROFL…Start by learning how to stand on your own two feet again, anti-Semite.
“You can find articles which deal with how Hamas brainwash children…or this one about Hamas’ terror tunnels.”
Go share your disgusting, anti-Semitic Zionist filth with your little friends from stormfront, you atrocious little anti-Semite.
Soz for the double post!
@Douglas
You can’t reason with this swarm of left wing extremists, trolls and pathological haters who occupy the Intercept. Actually, the term “occupy” is not even the right one, as occupying means at least uninvited, and these folks are pretty much welcomed by the Intercept. You can tell them 10000 times that 2+2=4 and they will respond hasbara, zionism. You can only expose them. And when you do, they pretty much short-circuit to ‘zzzzzzzzz’ or disappear. Sometimes, I think that this entire Intercept endeavour is a CIA special op to bring terrorism sympathizers under one roof for identification. I’d say LOL, but it is no longer funny…
Zzzzzzzzzzzz…
You can’t reason with jumped up Zionist cretins, you can only expose them, and shameless anti-Semites like you don’t get to “tell” me anything.
When the Palestinians attack soldiers it is arguably a military activity. But when they target civilians in contravention of international law, they are terrorists.
When they claim to be attacking Israel, that is a political act. When they claim to be attacking Jews or Zionism it is anti-Semitism.
Unfortunately if you look at what the Palestinians actually do it is that they typically attack civilians. What they say is that they are attacking Jews.
There is a popular game among Palestinian kids. It’s called “Stab the Jew”. I think we can safely call that anti-semitism.
Yes Yaakov. You’re really making sense. Because historically, it has always been the oppressed who’ve played popular games called “stab the oppressor” and not the oppressors who’ve spread vile propaganda against the oppressed. Your logic really cuts through butter like a straw.
Pray tell what popular game this one is called.
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1007985772571125&id=110776862292025
I think it might be called “how to become a dentist.” I hear it’s quite popular in your circle.
“When they claim to be attacking Jews or Zionism it is anti-Semitism.”
Your Zionism is pure anti-Semitism, anti-Semite, and I shall continue to curb-stomp your filthy Zionism at every opportunity I get.
“There is a popular game among Palestinian kids. It’s called “Stab the Jew”. I think we can safely call that anti-semitism.”
LMAO…Yea, you raving anti-Semite, those Palestinian kids are just itching to stab Jews because they want that Jew gold so badly, nu? I think we can safely call you a braindead Zionist window licker.
http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.fr/2008/07/how-to-make-case-for-israel-and-win.html
Looks like the proZionist project gang has reached the “You suck” chapter in the Hasbara Handbook, when there are no more arguments of left , except accusations of “anti-semitism”.
Palestinians are dying every day, their homes are being destroyed every day, by a criminal gang of self-righteous religious supremacists. This gang of religious supremacists has ignored every international law on the books, by definition it is a criminal state. This criminal gang of religious supremacists bases their right to abuse the indigenous population on a collection of folk tales, claiming that “God gave us this land”. Here I recommend Shlomo Sand’s best-seller, “The Invention of the Land of Israel”. And when critizised, all they can come up with is a claim of “anti-Semitism”?
If you can do no better than holler “Wolf, wolf” at every perceived “insult”, you yourself have done more than anyone to destroy the meaning of “anti-Semitism”. You sound like a bunch of kids yelling “Mommy, mommy, she called me a bad name.”
SO, MONA, we agree that Palestinians who kill Israelis do try to make sure they kill only Jewish Israelis, and not the many non-Jewish ones. Among the potential victims, the difference between life and death is being Jewish. No matter if they are children; no matter if they’ve never harmed a Palestinian; no matter if they oppose Israel’s reprehensible policies. If they’re Jewish, they can die.
Yet, the fact of their being Jewish is, you loftily proclaim, “irrelevant.”
Right.
Perhaps your Zionist assholes should’ve thought about that, sweetie, before they sexually abused all those Palestinian children in the name of all Jews.
Atheist: “There is no other ‘minority’ that behaves this aggressively.”
Are Jews uniquely aggressive, do you think?
I guess he stumbled and accidentally fell out of the closet…
Meh. I don’t think Atheist is an anti-semite in the classic sense of hating Jews or bearing them ill will. On the other hand, of course, taking a negative characteristic exhibited by some members of a minority group (and yes Atheist, Jews are indeed a minority everywhere except Israel) and attributing it to the group as a whole is pretty much the textbook example of prejudice. So there’s that.
You may be right. But on the other hand, these folks change with changing times. Nowadays, it usually doesn’t pay well to be a classic anti-semite (except for new Ukraine where 20- year- olds wear t-shirts saying Kill Jews. So, the “operatives” must be more subtle. But when you engage them, they stumble and sometimes expose themselves…
This was a bad choice of words. But I’m really not talking about Jews. The average Jew like the average anybody, doesn’t go around making threats. But the ADL, AIPAC, and their supporters, they make threats. They destroy careers. And then they, like Gorsky, say “what threat? I don’t know what you’re talking about. I just happened to mention her name.”
But when everybody gets together and trie’s to destroy Salaita, or tries to destroy some even real anti semite, everybody else can see it. Even a real anti semite has the right to be an antisemite. No other minority has organizations working on their behalf that wields this kind of power and then publicly displays their power and then revels in it. No other minority group can pressure the largest university system in the US with threats of financial punishment to outlaw only one kind of protest. And while this minority group, or people representing this group, think they’re being smart, everybody else is witnessing this openly aggressive behavior.
Anyway. I don’t feel like explaining myself any further right now, or providing any more examples. You either get what I’m trying to saying, or you think I’m an antisemite.
Funny thing is, if gorsky called me an anti-semite yesterday, I think I would have felt bad, and thought “well let me explain, how I’m not an anti-semite to him. I don’t want him to think I’m an anti-semite, even in my anonymity.” And in one day I don’t seem to care. I don’t seem to care right now if somebody like gorsky thinks i’m an antisemite. I find him as disgusting as I find the ADL.
Atheist: “You either get what I’m trying to saying, or you think I’m an antisemite.”
No, those are not the only possibilities. I don’t get what you’re trying to say, nor do I think you are an anti-semite. I do think you are sometimes imprecise in ways that make you sound more prejudiced than you actually are.
For example, when you refer to “this minority group, or people representing this group,” I don’t know what you mean. I assume “this minority group” is a reference to Jews, but whom do you suppose “represents” us? Do you think American Jews held an election and voted to name AIPAC and ADL as our “representatives”? They sure as hell don’t represent ME.
You might as well say ISIS and Al Qaeda are “representatives” of Islam.
I believe there are approximately 6 million Jews in America. Of those, how many do you imagine are members of, or financial contributors to, AIPAC and/or ADL? Have you thought about that at all?
As another example, “everybody” did not get together to destroy Steven Salaita. Some of Salaita’s most outspoken supporters in the academic world (Corey Robin comes quickly to mind, and there were plenty of others) are Jewish. Did you know that?
You’re right. By “minority group” I was was referring to Jews. And you’re also correct that I’m structuring my argument incorrectly. I most definitely don’t believe that the ADL or AIPAC represents most Jews. I know a couple of Jews who can’t stand either organization.
No, you’re correct. I’m completely in the wrong here. AIPAC behavior absolutely should not affect what people think about Jews. It’s unfortunate. Even clouded my mind there for an instant.
I suppose what I’m talking about is the resultant reaction of people. Diane Feinstein and her husband may think helping to curtail speech at UofC campuses is a win for Jews. I’m not sure that the rest of the population will see the curtailing of such speech as a defense of Jews. Personally I see it as an offense against students. But again, you’re not Diane Feinstein. So my apologies for tangling you up with her.
But let me also talk about Gorsky for a second. Again, he’s not you. But let’s talk about his “threat.”
Now he may claim that he said this to make sure that she wasn’t impersonating the real Mona Holland, as if such a thing is rampant, or has even ever taken place on the internet, wher somebody instead of writing anonymously, regularly writes impersonating somebody else. But aside from his dissembling, how is an ordinary, non-Jew supposed to view that statement, other than angrily? Now, I’ll say that I was wrong to say what I said when I got angry at his statement. But it really did piss me off. People like him would give any community a bad name. People like him would have driven Glenn off the edge of the world by calling him an anti-semite, were Glenn not Jewish. They still try to do it, but thank God Glenn is Jewish. Otherwise, I’m not sure his journalism would have survived the likes of the ADL and of the Gorkys.
Cheers.
Atheist: how is an ordinary, non-Jew supposed to view that statement, other than angrily?
So, you think there is an ordinary non-Jew view vs Jew view in the world? You think that statement ‘if I were -Mona-‘ was uniquely Jewish?
@Gator
Do you think we have another “bad” choice of words here?
“So, you think there is an ordinary non-Jew view vs Jew view in the world? You think that statement ‘if I were -Mona-‘ was uniquely Jewish? ”
I think you’ve snorted too much Zionism, which has destroyed the higher functions of your brain, and so you can’t and don’t think, anti-Semite.
You really don’t get it, do you sweetie? Crimes against humanity are being perpetrated in your name. Take your complaint to the Zionist Federation and the Israeli government, they’re the ones who’ve been committing crimes against humanity in your name for over a century now.
“ADL, AIPAC, and their supporters, they make threats. They destroy careers. And then they, like Gorsky, say “what threat? I don’t know what you’re talking about. I just happened to mention her name.”
I don’t think you understand or perhaps you pretend not to understand. I am talking about what you call a “disgusting threat” towards our -Mona- character.
At no time did I disclose here name. -Mona- herself has mentioned on numerous occasions that she is a lawyer and former partner of Glenn Greenwald. Well, it is public information that indeed Glenn Greenwald had a law partner named Mona Holland. So, this -Mona- character represents on this board that she is Mona Holland. This may or may not be true, who cares. I just happened to notice that -Mona- does not write or expresses herself as a lawyer. Any lawyer (even incompetent one) would know the difference between opinions/legal opinions on the one side and legal definitions on the other. No lawyer or, as a matter of fact, even the first year law student, would say the International Law is such and such, because Desmond Tutu says so. No lawyer would cite Wikipedia as a source for legal definitions and International Law. So, because of the above, I doubt that the -Mona- character is a lawyer. In fact, I think she pretends to be a lawyer. Hence, I said to her the following: if I were her I wouldn’t claim I was real Mona Holland; what if real Mona Holland finds out that someone impersonates her on the Intercept site. I then added that if I was wrong, then I would want to know what law school she went.
There are only two scenarios: (i) -Mona- is real Mona Holland and in that case there is no threat at all; or (ii) -Mona- is pretending to be real Mona Holland and therefore she is impostor and fraud. In what away outing an impostor is a threat or disgusting threat?
“I don’t think you understand or perhaps you pretend not to understand. ”
I’m certain that you don’t understand, anti-Semite, because Zionists can’t and don’t think.
“In what away outing an impostor is a threat or disgusting threat?”
Your little Zionist shit stain in the Levant is an imposter, a fraud and disgusting threat, anti-Semite.
“Are Jews uniquely aggressive, do you think?”
Jews are assholes, like everybody else.
And Zionists are purebred assholes, like Islamists, Nazis and realtors.
Whenever I come on The Intercept I feel like I’m getting a one sided view. It would be great if you could start reporting on how Abbas and the PA aren’t helping the Palestinians or how Hamas is spending millions of UN aid money on building tunnels instead of infrastructure to improve the quality of life of Gaza’s residents.
“Whenever I come on The Intercept I feel like I’m getting a one sided view.”
ROFLMAO…Yea, anti-Semite, because the one thing The Intercept lacks is your stale and moldy hasbara.
Well,screw the PA,and why would Hamas build structures the stinkin Zionists destroy at the first opportunity?The tunnels are their only means of getting needed supplies prevented by the Zionists above ground.Yes,it’s possible some weaponry,but you don’t want to shoot at sitting ducks on your biannual pogroms,now do you?It’s not sporting old chap!
AIC;Stick to your guns,you are dealing with serial liars.They laugh at your humanity.
Just in;An American Orthodox Jew was just ejected from his congregation for protesting unjust Israeli treatment of Palestine.
Nah.sheesh.
While we are discussing antisemitism, gorsky has brought to my attention a horribly disturbing matter. You see, gorsky advises that the word “hasbara” is antisemitic.
Well, if so, antisemitism has spread more widely and improbably than heretofore imagined. For, The World Union of Jewish Students has published The Hasbara Handbook: Promoting Israel on Campus(pdf). Shockingly, this antisemitic publication is sponsored by the Education Dept. of the Jewish Agency for Israel.
This isn’t the only instance of Israeli organizations and Zionists speaking of, and promoting, “hasbara” efforts.
gorsky! What shall we do about this horrible state of affairs? Should we be writing letters to the Israeli Embassy about this terrible mistake their government makes so often?
Nice touch… of a closet anti-semite. I have just crushed your so called “facts” on International law and its definitions of apartheid and occupation, so now you start screaming “gosky advises that the word ‘hasbara’ is antisemitic.”
No, Mona, the word hasbara is NOT antisemitic. You and your miserable bile are. See the difference?
“Gosky! What shall we do about this horrible state of affier?” I guess you and the Intercept cabal of bozos should start celebrating… That is until Israeli people have had enough of their incompetent governments,k which fail to provide security for its people. Rejoice…
What’s a “closet anti-[S]emite”? Is there a generally accepted definition or is it case-by-case? And who decides?
“Closet antisemite” You don’t know? Try to separate the words. Closet whatever means someone who is X, but wouldn’t admit the same in public.
Who decides? If it is my opinion, then it is humble me. :)
There are two kinds of people in this world. Anti-Semites and Closet Anti-Semites. That’s it. No exceptions. Supporters of Israel decide who is which. No exceptions.
Not exactly, even if said with sarcasm. There is some sizeable amount of antisemites in the world. Let me put it this way: many people are antisemites; virtually all antisemites are closet ones. After all, there is some stigma associated with the term, hence comes the closet…
Whatever stigma there is, you people are destroying it, a day at a time with your frivolous claims. Pretty soon the word is going to become a joke.
If Mona is a closet antisemite, I’m a Martian.
Let’s cut BS and set aside all arguments and positions. What’s the main reason behind BSD and similar garbage. They want Israel to give back all the land that it took in 1967. Do you know what Palestinians want? They don’t want pre-1967 borders. They want no Jews in Israel and no Israel in the Middle East. Apartheid or not, occupation or not, boycott or not, do you think Palestinians could get what they want? I don’t think so…
Okay fine. If your position is, Palestinians want to much, and it’s not acceptable to me, and so I will kill them at will, call them insects and what not. That’s fine. That’s your position. I won’t agree with you, but I’ll know that’s your position. I might even have some sympathy with it, if I thought you actually had some existential fear. That would be an honest conversation.
But please, stop with your antisemitism, closet antisemtism bullshit, and any other new fangled variation of that word to elicit sympathy from the world while you kill, bulldoze, pen, murder Palestinians at will.
It’s no longer a mystery. The whole world can see it. Nobody relies on the lies of the NYT for their news anymore. Those days are over.
“But please, stop with your antisemitism, closet antisemtism bullshit.” You would have been right had antisemitism disappeared from Earth, but it hasn’t…
Absolutely anti-semitism hasn’t disappeared from the earth. I agree with you there. But wherever on earth antisemitism is, you’re not suffering from it. So don’t take somebody else’s anti-semitic experience and use it as an excuse while you break the head of a Palestinian.
“But wherever on earth antisemitism is, you’re not suffering from it.” You really don’t know.
” So don’t take somebody else’s anti-semitic experience and use it as an excuse while you break the head of a Palestinian.” As I have said on many occasions: the key to Palestinian’s self-determination and sovereignty is in their own pocket: stop terror, leave Israel alone and you will get yours (by way of negotiations), but they can’t: they see a better prize: no Jews in Israel and no Israel in the Middle East. They believe they can get it. They also believe they’ll have tens of naked young women given to them by allah. Again, good luck to them…
As I have said on many occasions…”
You can bleeeeeeeat all you want, anti-Semite. Your little Zionist shit stain in Palestine will be flushed away eventually. And your Yahweh has a special room waiting for you and your Zionists, anti-Semite, in hell…
“Absolutely anti-semitism hasn’t disappeared from the earth. I agree with you there. But wherever on earth antisemitism is, you’re not suffering from it.”
What is just so frickin’ hilarious about that gorsky cretin’s “anti-Semitism” whine, Chief, is that Arabs are by far and away the largest “Semitic” group on the planet, while gorsky the cretin is probably about as “Semitic” as a Brooklyn bagel that someone baked on Mars.
That’s a non sequitur.
“Do you know what Palestinians want? They don’t want pre-1967 borders. ”
Wait, you mean to say you’ve asked every one of them?
That’s impressive.
That’s what their official negotiators say. Do you want me to ask every one of them?
“Do you know what Palestinians want? They don’t want pre-1967 borders. They want no Jews in Israel and no Israel in the Middle East.”
Why would, or should, Palestinians want to have your toxic little Zionist shit stain of a state stinking up their back yard, anti-Semite? And why would, or should, the Palestinians want to have millions of indoctrinated foreign Zionist Jews rampaging across Palestine, all day and night, anti-Semite? What are the Palestinians to you, anti-Semite, chopped liver?
“They want Israel to give back all the land that it took in 1967.”
Yea, let’s cut the bullshit, anti-Semite. Does your broken little Zionist brain “think” that the Palestinians will now, after Oslo, just let you and your filthy Zionist colonizers keep all that Palestinian land that your lying thieving murderous Zionist cohorts stole in your name back in 1948, and for free? What are the Palestinians to you, anti-Semite, chopped liver?
They can dream right?(Palestinians)
But the Zionist dream is reality.Funny dat.
Outside of government officials throughout the West,can you point out pro-semites?I noticed you didn’t count them.Was it error,or are we all antisemites?(goyim rubes)
Glenn has often warned that Israel and it’s lobbies in the West have all but removed all sting from the antisemitic label. (He, of course, has also been denounced as an antisemite by rabid Zionists.)
As it stands, I figure if people like gorsky are not calling me an antisemite I’m not speaking morally. Further, only people like me, Glenn, Gator and you Atheist, have any moral authority to denounce actual antisemites.
“Further, only people like me, Glenn, Gator and you Atheist, have any moral authority to denounce actual antisemites.” OK. Now I got it. Yes, Ma’am… :)
“There is some sizeable amount of antisemites in the world.”
Yea, anti-Semite, and your Zionists are by far and away the largest group of out of the closet anti-Semites on the planet.
You Zionists do this rather a lot. You declare you’ve “won.” I am “defeated.” You have “crushed” my arguments.
As I just told Jonah who’d done the same thing, almost always, when people debating on he Internet feel a need to state that they are victorious over their opponent, it’s insecurity speaking. If they really had undermined their opponent, and knew it, their arguments would be clear for all the readers to see. They’d confidently rest on that.
gorsky, your pile of unsupported assertions does not merit further substantive reply. Some Guy in a comments section spewing his own unsupported ranting does not a persuasive argument make.
But at least you’ve abandoned the absurdity of claiming that the term “hasbara” is antisemitic. By the way, and if you have not, you should take a long look at that Hasbara Handbook. Those facile techniques do not work here, or with me, but it might give you a few ideas.
It is immaterial whether I crushed your argument or not. After I cited you some definitions FROM the International Law on apartheid and occupation, you presented you stuff, which based on several quotes from some UN officials who said “there APPEARS to be apartheid in Israel.” You don’t have to be a lawyer to know that neither the UN nor its officials determine what the International Law is. No matter how many times you scream Hasbara/Zionism, a definition stays a definition. Your “facts” are based on selective opinions. Mine – on internationally accepted definitions. And make no mistake, I have no intention to convince you that 2 + 2 = 4 for two simple reasons: (i) you know who you are and what you are doing; and (ii) I also know who you are and what you are doing. All I am doing is exposing your type…
Yes, based on applicable international law, Richard Falk, special rapporteur on human rights for the UN, matched the facts on the ground in Israel and the Occupied Territories with the law, and presented his findings. Falk is careful, and does the job he’s retained to do, which is to state his opinion. He’s not acting as a judge, so he used the word “appears.”
Desmond Tutu, who is free to simply declare his assessment , decrees that Israel is an apartheid state. So do many learned and respected others. They adduce facts, as did the Israeli newspaper, Haaretz, and concluded the name for what is happening in Israel is apartheid.
Wow. Sounds ominous. But anyway, Israel is an apartheid state. BDS is succeeding, and will continue to grow and punish Israel and Israelis until it is no longer an apartheid state. No amount of your fevered, rage-filled denials and assertions in this comment section can change that reality. [shrug]
Falk said this, Tutu said that, Hitler said this and Lenin said that. Those are opinions vs law. Refresh your first year law school courses. You should be ashamed of yourself.
“BDS is succeeding” In what?! Palestinians want no Jews in Israel and no Israel in the Middle East. Good luck to you and them… You need it… :) You are a joke, Mona…
No more so than your assertions. In fact, their reasoning is far more substantial.
I’ll take their understanding of the applicable law married to the relevant facts over yours.
You simply spew juvenile taunts and insults, glib strawmen, and provide virtually no documentation for your copious assertions. But in that you not an atypical Zionist. They have so little to work with to defend Zionism/Israel’s crimes against Palestinians.
If you are incapable of understanding the difference between matters of opinions and law, then you shouldn’t be breaking you mind talking about international law. If some one quotes to you the second amendment and you reply: that’s your opinion, you make yourself a laughing stock.
Ok. I just noticed you sited Wikipedia as legal basis for your outbursts. Now I understand why you think that Tutu’s opinions constitute international law and Black Law definitions are opinions. You just don’t know…
By the way, if I were you, I’d be careful claiming that you are Mona Holland, a used to be lawyer and GG’s former partner. What if the real person finds out? If I am wrong, I really want to know what law school you went…
You claim to be part of a “minority” suffering from anti-semitism. Then you make a blatant disgusting threat. And then you wonder why people write anti-semitic shit. And you can’t even see how disgusting that type of behavior is. There is no other “minority” that behaves this aggressively. Quite disgusting.
Mona has more balls, than all of us writing here anonymously combined!
“Threat”
Oh, really?! Let’s see:
If poster -Mona- is Mona Holland, as she has claimed on multiple occasions, then she is the real person. How could this be a threat at all?
If -Mona- is not Mona Holland, then she is fraud and impostor. So, how could a warning to an impostor be a “disgusting thread”? You are not making any sense.
Now, let’s examine you and your statement:
You state that I claim to be minority, i.e. Jewish: False. All I ever said is You don’t know. And I repeat: you don’t know.
Next, you say I make a disgusting threat: another falsity. And by the way, why would you make such a comment, unless of course you know -Mona- character is an impostor?
Next you say I shouldn’t be surprised people write antisemitic stuff. And finally, you say no other minority, but Jews, is engaged in such
“disgusting behavior.”
Now we are talking: it is not Israel, it is Jews. Congratulations and welcome to the club!
Oh gosh, it was Jonah who claimed the term “hasbara” is antisemitic. My apologies, gorsky; I got my hasbara-ists confused.
“I have just crushed your so called “facts”…”
No, your Zionism crushed your so called “brain” a while back, anti-Semite.
“No, Mona, the word hasbara is NOT antisemitic.”
Your hasbara is stale and your Zionism is pure unadulterated anti-Semitism, anti-Semite.
“You and your miserable bile are. ”
Nah, your miserable Zionism and the miserable bile it causes you miserable Zionists to produce are, anti-Semite.
Perhaps at the core is a psychological affliction reflected in the insistence on oppressing others (to get them to go away, presumably, so as to have ALL the land) while also desperately wanting to be accepted (hence, criticism = “delegitimizing”) . Over time, that dynamic must have some deleterious effects on the coherence of thought processes. People frequently are killed to reinforce a point (there’s no hope for you here), not because they represent a substantive threat. That’s easy enough, of course, when the disparity in power is as great as it is. What’s pathological is the narrative that Israel’s choices are foisted on it by others.
Wow talk about psychobabble.
Please tell me you don’t work in any field that requires a knowledge a psychology.
I am going to take a wild guess that most people who are against the occupying actions of Israel (&their supporting governments) are also against practices of anti-semitism.
Glenn “then what is considered a legitimate means for Palestinians and their allies to resist and end the decades long, illegal Israeli occupation? The answer is: nothing.”
Thanks for pointing this out so clearly. Many of us have been stunned over the decades by this reality for the Palestinians. Wondering what each of us would go given the same circumstances? Fight back after you have been beat down so many times? Watched land, homes, lives destroyed…..
BDS non violent and the powers that be are doing everything they can to destroy that movement.
@TheInterceptIsFullOfAntiSemitesISCompleteHorseshit
There maybe 5 or 6 regulars who say insensitive and sometimes anti-semitic things. That’s it. If you’re going to say that the vast majority of The Intercept’s readership is anti-semitic, then provide the evidence. Provide examples of how often how many people said things that are primarily anti-semitic and not anti-Israel. If you’re going to get sentimental every time somebody writes something mean about Israel, because some Palestinians house got bulldozed, or because Israel flaunts its political power at AIPAC meetings that’s your problem. Those sentiments are about Israel’s behavior and Israel’s political influence, and are in no way anti-semitic.
Personally, I don’t give a shit if people say anti-Islam things. The only reason I responded to Jonah was that he was being mean to somebody, who is openly professing her faith. And I just wanted to let him know that this is not his backyard, full of Palestinians who are not allowed to raise their eyes above the ground.
The amount of offense that some Jews take, is really quite unseemly. Switch on the TV. Some Black person just got shot, and nobody went to jail. Some Mexican is being deported. Some transgendered man is slapped out of a bathroom because the females think that he’s a man in their bathroom. Some Palestinian got their head blown off… oh sorry, that’s not even on tv. Where the hell is this anti-semitism, you keep going on about? I don’t see it. Where is it? Stephen Salaita loses his job because he tweeted about Israel. But we’re supposed to be sensitive to anti-semitism. What anti-semitism?
Does it exist on this chat? Sure it does. And does Mona point it out like a champion? Yes she does. But if Mona talks about a Palestinians right to fight back in his own country, she’s suddenly “confused” about the moral complexities. Morality apparently begins and ends with death. Dehumanizing, imprisoning, putting a population on a fucking calculated diet, inside a ghetto is all good, as long as you don’t gas them. Should one of them let out their frustrations with a knife, well… that’s the beginning and end of moral outrage. Otherwise it’s anti-semtism.
Please fuck off with your outrage and your sadness. There are Palestinians who don’t have time to be sad, because they have to stand in one of those long Alien/Inhuman cages. Your sensitivities are just too one sided for me to feel bad about them right now.
Anti-Israel commentary is not anti-semitism. Provide examples of unfettered/unchallenged anti-semitism or shut up. Spend a few of those sad moments feeling bad for the daily victims of Israel.
Well said, nearly all of it. But I have to take some issue with this bit:
There absolutely is some serious antisemitism in Eastern Europe, and also in parts of Western Europe as well. A few years ago , in Antwerp a rabbi was stabbed while riding his bike, and this wasn’t the first attack on Jews there:
This is related to Israel, yes, but the victims are not Israelis occupying Palestinian land.
Thanks for pointing out the flaws in my argument Mona. I didn’t make it properly. I’m not saying that anti-semtism doesn’t exist (although it may have sounded like that). My point is that it’s not any more dangerous than anti-anything else. Let’s all try being poor and Black in the US for five minutes. Then we’ll see what racism is. Being Jewish, compared to being any other minority, is relatively easy.
Yes, but I absolutely believe that anti-semitism exists. I’ve personally heard it, in polite company. I’m not denying it’s existence. My point is, that it is more difficult to be many other types of minorities in this world. Being Jewish, especially in North America, surely isn’t a hardship, when you compare it being… you name the minority.
@Atheist: “Being Jewish, compared to being any other minority, is relatively easy.”
I appreciate your honesty. Now we’re getting somewhere.
@Atheist: “Spend a few of those sad moments feeling bad for the daily victims of Israel.”
I feel bad for them all the time. You have no idea. But, melancholy creature that I am, I can feel bad about more than one thing at once.
If you can’t ascertain the difference between criticizing Israel and calling Jews the “scourge of the world” (to use one teensie example from this particular thread), then I feel bad for you as well.
I do feel bad when somebody says things like that. I do feel bad. I feel absolutely terrible when I read things like that. And yes, you can feel bad about that too, and I understand that completely. But to then imply that the readership of the intercept is secretly anti-semitic because they don’t respond to some hothead/anti-semitic comment in an article about Israel, that’s what I’m taking issue with. That is patently unfair.
This is one of the most well read and well informed readership I’ve ever come across. It’s frankly, a pleasure for me to read Glenn’s comments section. I learn something new from every comments thread. It’s not fair to heap a blanket charge of anti-semitism, because of a handful of bad actors.
And I’ll tell you one other issue I have. What’s the implication of
GLENN: crickets?”
What is the implication of that? Is he some sort of Islamophile? Does he have a secret agenda? Does he have to throw his readership under the bus to earn your trust? Or is it more likely that he doesn’t feel the need to explain the behavior of his readership in super great detail, because he doesn’t feel the need to. You’re also being unfair to Glenn, holding him responsible for things that I write.
Yeah, I probably am being unfair to Glenn, as you say. I was just trying to taunt him into responding, because I know he reads comments and I was/am really interested in his answer to Gil Gamesh’s query.
I doubt he’s still reading these particular comments. He stopped back in here after I emailed him telling him we had a Gator sighting, or I doubt he’d have shown up here again at all. He has a new piece up from, I think, yesterday.
Cheers.
Sorry about my outburst!
No apology needed. Your contributions here have a quality of intellectual and emotional honesty that I respect even when I don’t think you’re right.
Huh? You start out asking where the anti-Semitism is, then you say it does exist on this chat, Then you request after this admission to be provided with examples. I don’t know about Mona’s confusion but yours is apparent.
Oh and btw you don’t get to decide what outrages me. I feel bad for all victims. You, Mona and Glenn make excuses for why some murders are understandable.
“Excuses” is the wrong word. What I point out is that severely victimized human beings sometimes kill. To offer accurate mitigating circumstances is not to “excuse.” It is to observe facts of human nature that are often enough at play in law, including in the charge for the killing, as well as the penalty imposed.
Really Mona? Please cite the law that considers killing a random person because you feel victimized a mitigating circumstance.
Sure, GG, after you “cite the law” that makes it perfectly kosher for foreign Zionist belligerent occupiers and colonizers to murder Palestinian civilians by the thousand, and with impunity, because their ideology, which makes them feel eternally victimized, is a mitigating circumstance.
“Oh and btw you don’t get to decide what outrages me.”
Oh, but you get to decide what should and shouldn’t outrage Palestinians, and how Palestinians should and shouldn’t resist their dispossession and the ongoing violent colonization of their homeland, right?
Wrong! You don’t get to decide any of those things.
Please put a baby in me before my ovaries explode, Chief. ;)
GLENN: “I suspect people don’t often respond to someone spewing over anti-semitism because such individuals are often filled with hatred or trolling, making responding a waste of time – not because huge percentages of my readership secretly agree with anti-semitic bile.”
GIL GAMESH: “Yet anti-Islamic bile is met by poster outrage rather quickly. How do you explain?”
GLENN: [crickets]
Since most of the replies to anti-Islam propaganda come from me, your reasonable and thoughtful query is making me feel that I should suspend my activities here.
That will reduce the outrage to anti-Islam bile immensely.
I’ll reflect on it further and see if suspending posting here is the right thing to do.
You certainly have the freedom to do as you wish brother….but I along with you point out the true problems that exist within the realm we are witness to. Unless we have the strength to stand against the stones that are cast toward us, we can not help others to seek self reflection, self accountability, and a few words of encouragement. A few words of unity. A few words of compassion. I am more blessed to have known you. Thank you.
Sufi, you absolutely should NOT go. The reasons why that would be a bad and wrong action are many:
1. Yours is a voice of great wisdom and knowledge, a patient voice seldom seen here. (Certainly, I am not patient!) You do not respond with “outrage”; that is my department, and that of others.
2. I very quickly respond to most antisemitic commentary and I do so with hefty doses of outrage. Of course, I drop a bomb of the same outrage on anti-Muslim bigotry. So, as the chief outrage-deliverer, I think Gator and Mr. Gilgamesh are significantly overstating the disparity, such as it may actually exist.
3. As far as I know, no Islamophobic comments have been deleted here in a very long time. By contrast, I know antisemitic ones have been. More than once, and recently.
4. Especially as the Trumpistas have infested us, the antisemtism here has drastically increased. I’ve emailed Glenn about this problem very extensively, and we’ve discussed the contours of proper rules for posting. Rules that are currently in development.
5. With all due respect to Gator, he’s overstating the problem. Attention is being paid to the antisemitism, probably more so than to the attacks on Muslims/Islam.
Go ahead,destroy the site,like TD and TO have recently done.
Circle the wagons of BS,maybe you’ll meet the ass of the Lying Times.
@SM
It wasn’t my query; it was GilGamesh’s. I just re-posted it to see if Glenn would answer it.
While your responses to anti-Islamic commentary are eloquent and would be missed if you suspended them, you are far from the only person who refutes, criticizes, and/or denounces such commentary in this forum. Numerous people have done so in this very thread, and in many others. AS THEY SHOULD (I hasten to add).
Anti-semitic commentary, however, is generally received, well, differently. I have a few thoughts as to why that might be, but would be more interested in the thoughts of others, if anyone cares to share.
If you look at the history of TI, I have commented on issues pertaining to Islam, in refutation of the garbage thrown at it, a lot more than anyone else has; though many of the anti-Islam comments are quite clearly irrational and without much depth, like those of Jonah.
Mona does address anti-Semitic commentary a lot, and it is possible that other readers lurking here feel that that’s sufficient and don’t speak out.
Gil’s query is reasonable, but I don’t have an answer other than what I have already stated. I do feel that if I don’t jump on anti-Islam comments, which generalize and stereotype us all, the number of responses to anti-Islam comments will reduce quite a bit.
Moreover, I feel that my comments are repetitive. I mean how many times do I have to point out that Islam is not monolithic, or talk about the lower and the higher consciousness.
I’d be very interested in knowing your thoughts on why anti-Semitic is received differently.
@Sufi
With all due respect (and in your case, much is due), GG’s commenters were rhetorically eviscerating anti-Muslim bigots for years before TI was even a twinkle in his eye. The thing is, they used to disembowel the anti-semites too. Nowadays, Mona sometimes does it (when she’s not busy pondering the moral “complexity” of whether it’s OK to murder Jewish civilians, that is), but she is pretty much alone. And that makes coming here a depressing experience for me, even though I can’t seem to stay completely away.
As to why anti-semitic commentary is more tolerated here than anti-Islamic commentary, I suspect it is due to a widespread feeling among Glenn’s readers that Jews are (a) privileged members of Western society, and (b) generally complicit in the oppression of Palestinians by Jews in Israel. Because Jews are privileged, they don’t need to be defended against insult and slander the way Muslims do, and because Jews are oppressors, they have it coming anyway. (And, of course, some folks just don’t like Jews. It has ever been thus and I don’t expect it to change.)
I see!
Many thanks for sharing your thoughts.
More need to challenge anti-Semitism.
Look, Gator, I respectfully request that you knock off this bullshit. That the civilians in question are Jewish is irrelevant to the moral analysis. As you well know, my moral quandary obtains in a situation in which a people with vastly superior resources (Israeli Jews) are stealing land from victims whom they keep immiserated and powerless, unable to even begin to attack the state-of-the-art military occupying them.
Moreover, these Israeli civilians are essentially squatters — certainly they are that in the West Bank. They are living on the land, and often in the homes of, those they have stolen from.
This is a morally difficult situation in terms of expecting wholesale condemnation of attacks on civilians without even mentioning the mitigating factors.
Mona – “That the civilians in question are Jewish is irrelevant to the moral analysis.”
Oh? It’s not irrelevant to the murderers, who, to the best of my knowledge, don’t usually set off bombs in Israel’s ARAB neighborhoods and gathering places.
What?! You mean they aren’t attacking their fellow indigenes, the ones who were there when the Zionists stole the land? Come on, Gator, you know better than this.
This is all about occupation and land theft, and not about attacking Jews per se. As I’ve said, victims reacting violently to occupiers whom they see — with some justice — as squatters, is a morally difficult issue. That scenario is materially different from Ukrainian fascists who hate Jews because they are Jews.
Mona, you’re really saying Palestinian attackers make no distinction between Jewish and Palestinian victims? Well, you’re generally very good at documenting your assertions; perhaps you can substantiate that one, but I doubt it. I believe Palestinians comprise about 20% of the population of “Israel proper”; I wonder what percentage of terror victims they comprise. Feel free to prove me wrong (you’ve done it before), but I bet it’s significantly less than 20%.
No! I said (via sarcasm) the opposite:
Zionism is a Jewish movement for Jewish people. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if Palestinians take some measures to avoid attacking civilian Arab Israelis. They aren’t the ones who stole the land, and keep stealing it. They are, by Palestinian lights, supposed to be there.
“The thing is, they (GG’s commenters) used to disembowel the anti-semites too. Nowadays, Mona sometimes does it (when she’s not busy pondering the moral “complexity” of whether it’s OK to murder Jewish civilians, that is), but she is pretty much alone. And that makes coming here a depressing experience for me, even though I can’t seem to stay completely away.”
I disagree. When Mona “disembowels” anti-semites, it is a creepy attempt to appear “balanced.” I wouldn’t be surprised at all if those “other” anti-semites are Mona herself posting under different names…
Unfortunately for you and your theory, Hasbara-is Gorsky, I know several people participating here in real life. Not the least being Glenn Greenwald.
In the 20 years I’ve been friends with Glenn, he’s often heard me denounce antisemites.
Better luck with your next baseless speculation.
I’ll echo Mona’s and others sentiments regarding the worth of you commentary here. I have learned a lot from reading your comments and their responses; so thank you.
It does often seem an exercise in futility pushing back against uninformed or misinformed voices but that’s what education is: providing new and more accurate information regardless.
Regarding repetition – I often wonder how Glenn does this, year in and year out. How he hasn’t been found dangling from a light fixture at the end of one of his infamous neon-neckties I’ll never know – but I’m glad you (and he) keep putting it out there.
Anti-semitic indictments are used to silence and cover up war crimes. Because these war crimes are committed by a self described Jewish State called ‘Israel’ that was not given to these so-called ‘chosenites’ by The Almighty as they claim, but by a brutal occupation and manipulation of a Holy Book that has been utterly perverted and exchanged with a man made demonic doctrine called Talmud. Man made occupation is what exist in Palestine called ‘Israel’. Man made brutality, murder, deception, lies, self man made determination…everything man made is destruction of the paradise that God Created. When not in covenant with the laws and commands…and the Grace unto which was made deliverance for this abomination, there is only destruction…and complete it will be ‘made by man’. Until man comes away from his own god(s) and repents unto the One and only God of the True Israel (God Prevails)…spirit, soul and body…and sincerely asks for the Way, the Truth, and the Light…and sincerely wants peace, is when there will be peace. There is a Way but it is refused. Man mocks God and everything he does on his own he puts ‘God’ as the authority in deceit. This is the anti Christ (Messiah). And only discernment by the Spirit of God can give discernment of the false by knowing the true. God knows all of us and our deceptions. We can not fool Him nor fake our salvation. We are all accountable.
GLENN: “I suspect people don’t often respond to someone spewing over anti-semitism because such individuals are often filled with hatred or trolling, making responding a waste of time – not because huge percentages of my readership secretly agree with anti-semitic bile.”
That’s totally false: huge percentages of intercept’s readrership OPENLY and NOTORIOUSLY AGREE with anti-semitic bile. One only needs to read any (and when I say any, I include articles that are not related to Israel) piece of this propaganda outlet.
Says a guy who thinks reciting the truth about Zionists and the State of Israel constitutes antisemitism. That “standard” is laughed at here, as it should be.
Sigh.
Obviously because the anti Muslim stuff is untrue,while the Anti Israel stuff is.
When Jews wake up to their own shortcomings as humans,maybe we’ll see the end of antisemitism.
Why do Jews own the appellation of anti,as there are no antiRoma,antiItalian,antiEthiopian,antiIranian,antiFrench,antiGerman,antiChinese etc. memes?Why do Jews own Anti exclusively?Is it they,or the goyim that have created this phenomena?
Antiteutonic?Antisino,antiIti?antifrog?Persophobia?
Reality bites.
http://chicagopolicyreview.org/2015/05/05/myth-busting-robert-pape-on-isis-suicide-terrorism-and-u-s-foreign-policy/
The man who knows more about the sources of terrorism than most probably anyone. From years of studying that manifestation, he has found the major source of terrorism to be OCCUPATION.
And which country stands out as the major occupier and expansionist colonial ideologue of 2016? Therefore, if occupation of other people’s lands and resources were minimized, terrorism would lessen. Osama bin Laden knew this, which is why he included the Palestinian situation in his recruiting material. And Palestine is an issue to this day in ISIS recruitment materials. Should attention be focused on the symptom or the cause?
Great article…am reading Gideon Levy’s book on the Punishment of Gaza…but get so sickened reading it that I can only manage few pages at a time…Yet when anyone protests about Israeli behaviour it is immediately attacked as anti-Semite….I am anti-Israeli…they are acting like Nazis did to them…but not against jewish people!! Have stopped buying any produce from Israel…a small gesture
Over 95% of global terror in 2016 is caused by one religion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents,_January%E2%80%93June_2016
Religions don’t “cause” terrorism. Rather, civil wars, and oppressed people, often organize resistance and war around religion.
Given that there are 1.6 billion Muslims dispersed over the globe, and further given the Western meddling and interference in Muslim nations around the world, as well as European colonialism in countries with many Muslims, it’s not surprising that Muslims are over-represented in civil wars and resistance movements.
But terrorists can and do organize around a different religion, as in India, where the Hindu fascists constitute 95 % of world Hindus; so Hindu terrorists are pretty much found only in India.
Move the time back to, say, 1116 and keep moving forward. Include state-terror. Do that, and terror by Muslims isn’t the winner.
Adding, of course, that outfits like Boko Haram are more akin to a crime family than terrorists.
Read the list mona. No excuse for terror and the cause is very obvious. Western Meddling doesn’t explain what happened in Pakistan. It doesn’t explain most global terror.
Boko Haram is a crime family?? I don’t recall John Gotti ever attaching a suicide vest to a little girl and having her walk into a crowded market.
Hindu fascists are not a problem. They don’t do anything. All the factors you cite apply to every other religion, yet only one responds with terror. You lose. Your counter arguments are limp dick and pathetic. Enjoy the terror list. Please highlight the Hindu Fascists for me. I didn’t see any
http://www.catchnews.com/india-news/exclusive-latehar-confessions-gau-rakshaks-give-chilling-details-of-18-march-hangings-1459794465.html
Here’s what’s going on with the Hindu cow worshipers in India. You may well be hanged for insulting cows. Although there are many similarities, the USA foes not fund the cow protectors or protect them in the UN, as it does the Zionist project. Therefore, the Intercept does not spend that much time on the fascist cow protectors as it does on the fascist Zionist project, in all its medieval manifestations.
Yes. It does. Perhaps you are unfamiliar with how the U.S. helped create the Taliban, and how we’ve been occupying Afghanistan since 2001? That Taliban forces are thriving in Pakistan from where they organize now that Afghanistan is less hospitable.
As crime families go, the Italian mafia is really quite civilized. The Russians….not so much. The latter will wipe out entire families, including all the children of a rival.
Boko Haram is in the business of, among other things, sex-slave trafficking. This is a criminal entity. Like the Italians and Russians — a significant percentage of these evil Russian mobsters, by the way, are Jewish. Many do “business” from and in Israel.
What is your point??? Are you really equating Russian Jewish mobsters with Boko Harem?
I’m categorizing properly. Like the Italian, Russian and various other ethnic mafias, Boko Haram is primarily a crime family. Extent of depravity varies among such criminal enterprises.
jonah – you the author of this wiki list? Seems made to order doesn’t it? …consider the conflicting definition that wiki uses for terrorism and the list reads way short.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism
Terrorism used to define the actions of governments, but now it is redefined to use as the propaganda to fuel this world war machine, (your list for example). It is the have to have enemy for profit market modernized. Not complicated.
You seem to have invested in an extra supply of this propaganda bullshit, to fit your own narrative of this “idea of religion as reason” that is given away constantly at so many levels; as justification for blowing children’s heads off or destroying their families, homes, infrastructure, etc? Just as programmed for you to do – good boy jonah… good work kid. When is there any justification for this ever, seriously?
Quit making fucking excuses. Israel wants the land and resources, that Palestinians live on. This is history repeating itself.
The list also includes acts of Jewish terror if you go back to 2015 so I’m not sure what you are talking about. The list also omits enormous amounts of state violence committed by Muslim-majority countries, namely Saudi Arabia and Syria. The list is as neutral as it gets. If anything, it under-represents Islamic terror because it is so difficult to record all of it. Over 95% of global terror is preceded by a howl of “Allahu Akbar”. That is an incontestable fact. You have to live with that reality. You cannot avoid the truth by calling me a Hasbarist or any other anti-Semitic term. The numbers are the numbers.
I see.
Perhaps you could, then, provide a source showing that over 95% of global terror is preceded by a howl of “Allahu Akbar”?
Wow. So, Israel and Zionist organizations call their propaganda efforts by an “antisemitic” term. Who knew?
Yes,it all started when Judaism and its political arm Zionism,created Israel,over the total opposition of the areas indigenous residents ,with the help of criminal Europeans eager to assuage their guilt over Hitler and Nazi crimes.
Reality bites Zion in the ass.
The only legitimate form of protest from the Palestinians is they need to kill themselves. Do you think Israel would accept that? I do.
“Israeli soldiers stand near the body of a Palestinian who was shot and killed by a soldier while lying wounded on the ground after a stabbing attack in Hebron in the West Bank on March 24, 2016.”
Here is what a reasonable person can get from the above sausage: Israeli soldiers killed an innocent Palestinian whose only crime was lying wounded. This occurred after a stabing attack in Hebron. Unfortunately, it is not clear whether Israeli settlers or someone else did the stabbing attack. Or perhaps Israeli soldiers first stabbed the poor victim and them shot him…
Someone with a brain full of guts may call this journalism. I call it a sausage…
Of course you do! You are a fanatical Zionist who thinks those damn Palestinians have a lot of fucking nerve not being grateful for theft of their land, the razing of their homes and villages, locking them in an open air prison, more stealing land, terror by Zionist squatters on the West Bank who are almost always allowed to act with impunity, and bombing the crap out of Gaza every few years and killing over 500 Arab kids — some of them playing on the beach.
Resisting this oppression by stabbing a soldier of the occupation is, why, it’s just a whole lot of fucking nerve, amirite? Those soldiers are well-known as belonging to the world’s Most Moral Army™ — Israel tells us so all the time — and if they want to execute a downed victim of the occupation, well, so what?
Sausage!
If I were you, I would try to get Medicaid to cover much needed multiple shrink sessions. Emotions and hatred are no way to respond to facts and reason. This is not about gazans. This is not even about Israel. This is about a horrible reporting by a partisan hack who calls himself a journalist. He just proves again that nobody who ever worked for Enquirer… err, Salon can be a journalist.
It’s amazing how ‘anti semitic’ remarks are banded…but not ‘a partisan hack’ remark. It’s just a shame that a journalist can’t report the truth…’damned if they do, and damned if they don’t’. It’s a shame that free speech is perverted by the most hypocritical arrogance around. Why don’t you go where your ears are soothed (to align with your favorite lies)? If you are so smart to point a problem, then by all means give a gigantic heavenly solution…(and not from your own source albeit lies.) If Glen was so unfair…and so afraid…you wouldn’t be here commenting.
Let’s take this one apart. “If glen was so unfair…and so afraid…you wouldn’t be here commenting”
You mean he would delete me? He has done it on several occasions. It is a “smart” delete though: he comes back and cleans threads weeks after they are posted, which is quite creepy (to no surprise), because he pretends he is “fair”, but then when an article becomes stale, he comes back and cleans out whatever he doesn’t like, so then when someone comes to Intercept, he sees only agreeable comments.
Next, you are suggesting that I’d get the h*ll off this site. Can’t deal with facts and arguments? That’s a known tactic…
Again, most of my posts have little to do with either gazans or Israel. They are about partisan-hack reporting and perversion/omission of facts. By the way, even if you take away Glenn’s extreme partisan hack (which is about 99% of his writings), the leftovers still are not journalism. He writes as a lawyer, who by definition is an advocate of his cause, as opposed to a fair presenter. In other words, he never presents facts, instead he posts what he wants them to be and that’s a perfect definition of a partisan hack.
My first reason for call…is just what you stated…
“Next, you are suggesting that I’d get the h*ll off this site. Can’t deal with facts and arguments? That’s a known tactic…”
I did not say that.
And with all do respect to you (without name calling)…how are your remarks or your defense(s) of possibly ‘paid’ trolling amount to justice? I don’t know about sanitizing comments as you have said, but I do know that unless you have a just cause (esp. without pay) allowing yourself to be appalled by bloodshed, deceit, lies, and hatred of a brother…is when you can come to self realization that evil is evil.
I am amused how a bunch of bile spitting extremists carefully avoid anything substantive in posts they don’t like. As I have already said, almost none of my posts deal with Israelis vs. Gaza/West Bank dwellers. I point to clear bias and perversion of facts to fit one’s agenda. I expose pseudo-journalism where facts are either omitted or twisted to fit a partisan agenda, like in Glenn’s description of a photograph, where one would think that the poor gazan was first stabbed and then shot to death by “barbarous” Israeli soldiers. That’s no journalism; that’s Enquirer/Salon type bile propaganda. Do you care to dispute any of what I said? No one does, instead they scream Zionist/Hasbara/bloodshed, deceit, lies et all…
Oh, my dear Gorsky, I responded with facts, plenty of them. That you dislike those facts is understandable; you are, after all, a person whose brain is addled by Zionism.
But I have taken note that you feel Glenn Greenwald, who led the Guardian reporting team that won a Pulitzer Prize, and who won both a Polk Award and an Izzy for his reporting (among numerous other awards and accolades), I do note that you describe this person as a “hack.” Thanks for sharing.
Take it easy. I am not your dear. :) You have never responded to any of my posts other than by screaming Zionist/Hasbara, which, by the way, is very typical of your type. Let me give you an example. When I gave you definitions of apartheid and occupation, you responded that my definitions were hasbara. When I pointed out that those were not MY definitions, but of the International Law, (which you often site when you think it fits your bile) you have disappeared. Also very typical of your type…
I don’t recall your offering definitions from “International Law” that demonstrate Israel is not an a apartheid state. Certainly I question that you did, because I have often and quite easily dispatched such nonsense.
For example:
Further, the Israeli human rights NGO, B’Tselem, has issued an extensive report:
Do read the entire report (pdf) to learn the extensive factual basis for accurately describing Israel as an apartheid state. And oh, I’ve got plenty more, from impeccable sources, including a former director of the Shin Bet.
It’s facts with me, gorsky, all the way down. You just dislike those facts.
Here is where you completely fail. You claim to be a lawyer, a former partner of Greenwald. If you are, you should know the difference between “appear” to be apartheid and actual apartheid. You should know the difference between opinions of various UN officials and the actual international law. I bet you do, but the actual definitions do not fit your bile and hatred, so, instead, you selectively use opinions of various UN officials or some journalistic outlets (even if they are Israeli). No matter how you strive, the above opinions do not make or represent the International Law. And by the way, neither do the UN and their resolutions (make or determine the International Law). International Law is created/defined in treaties between consenting sovereigns. And this real International Law (in case of occupation) requires an occupier sovereign and occupied sovereign i.e. countries. These sovereigns, as it relates to Middle East were Israel, Jordan, Egypt and Syria. There was a war between those sovereigns, the war ended and the parties (except for Syria) made peace wherein they have resolved their territorial disputes. Neither Gaza nor West Bank dwellers qualify as sovereigns or countries. As a matter of fact, most of them were Jordanian arabs who were rejected by Jordan. These Jordanian arabs came up with a “clever” idea to create a new nation, whose stated goal, by the way, is erasing Israel and expelling all Jews from the Middle East. But just because I say that New York starting from tomorrow, would belong to Russia, doesn’t make it so. Back to our dwellers: according to International Law, there is no occupation as it applies to Israel and the dwellers. As a matter of fact, Israel can proceed to expel any and all dwellers under international law, but Israel is not going to do that.
The same applies to apartheid. You need two entities within the same country to have apartheid, as it was in South Africa. Gaza is not part of Israel. Neither is West Bank, although, there is no agreement as to the size of West Bank territory that belongs to Israel, but in general, Israelis do not dispute that some parts of West Bank don’t belong to Israel. And yet again, one of the required condition for apartheid is not met.
Now, my advice: you do much better when you scream Zionis/Hasbara than actually arguing a valid point. So, stick to the former…
A little addendum. I happen to believe that the current Israeli government is not capable of defending the country. Let’s take a wildest guess and imagine what would happen if Native American tribes would start sending their children, men and women dressed in explosive belts to blow up different parts of Connecticut, New York or Indiana? Or Washington DC? Would any known US government fail to defend itself? Nukes, anyone? No need to answer…
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/nov/08/military-royal-navy
This is how a civilized country treats its military when they are guilty of war crimes, they put the criminal in jail for the rest of his life. But the world knows that the Zionist project does not aspire to that standard of civilization.
After WWII the Allies executed Japanese for murdering injured prisoners. Now, what do we think the Zionist project is going to do with that member of the “most moral army in the world”? I believe the “Light Onto the Nations” is going to give him a medal.
Are you Mona’s clone? The same emotion and hatred totally disconnected from facts and reason.
“Civilized country”?! You might want to learn the following facts: http://military.wikia.com/wiki/British_war_crimes
It’s not possible to be hyperbolic about the depravity in Israel. The medal is in the works.
Sufi
“……It isn’t the Quran he quoted. He quoted something that in turn quoted a secondary source of Islam whose authenticity and context are debatable……”
It’s the Hamas charter
Craigsummers. – What’s up, bro. You still pro evil?
They must have taken it from a secondary source of Islam for their own political objectives.
The secondary sources have it as part of the description of end-of-time events, when the Mahdi and Christ return. Some of these accounts are similar to some Christian accounts, which suggest that everyone is doomed unless they accept Christ. So, there you go, more commonality between the two big religions.
It’s some hadith about rocks and stones singing for the killing of all Jews on the day of Judgment, when it will supposedly be the duty of Muslims to do so. It’s End Times nonsense.
They are all the same religion man, just rival sects who believe their image of god is the correct one
Same MO as the Fed, yo :b
Just to add to this conversation I thought I’d add this revealing quote from Winston Churchill, which pretty much sums up his view of the Israel/Palestine question. In 1937 Winston Churchill said of the Palestinians:
“I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger, even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit, for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America, or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher grade race, a more worldly-wise race, to put it that way, has come in and taken their place.”
That set the trend for the Israeli state’s attitude toward Palestinians.
In 1969, Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir said, “Palestinians do not exist.”
Her successor, Prime Minister Levi Eshkol said, ‘Where are Palestinians? When I came here [to Palestine] there were 250,000 non-Jews, mainly Arabs and Bedouins. It was desert, more than underdeveloped. Nothing.”
Prime Minister Menachem Begin called Palestinians “two-legged beasts.”
Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir called them “‘grasshoppers’ who could be crushed.”
This is the language of heads of state, not the words of ordinary people.
You can verify the Churchill quote all over the web, but here is just one URL-
http://refspace.com/quotes/Winston_Churchill/Q406
Palestine is a Hadrian term. Had he not changed the name it would still be called Judea. The two state solution is a fraud. We’re largely here talking about Arab / Islamic terrorism because of British hubris – cutting up the land the way the Brits wanted.
During the War the U.S. propaganda minister for the Dept of War (Elmer Davis) tried to get Americans to hate Germans and Japanese; and he did a great job. So the Churchill et al sentiments were all about the same.
After a bit of research it appears to be the case that you are wrong. The origin of the name Palestine comes from much, much earlier than the Roman Empire under Hadrian (125 AD). Actually the name Palestine morphed from the earlier word ‘Philistine’, and even earlier ‘Plesheth’, which means Palestinian’s conquest of the eastern Meditterranean. This was around 500 BC, so no: ‘Palestine’ is not merely an administrative term coined by Hadrian. The Philistines were in what is now Palestine 600 years earlier than Hadrian’s rule, and calling it Philistine. But further to the point: if the majority of the Jewish people who were in ‘Judea’ as you prefer to call it, or ‘Plesheth’ way way back during the time of ancient Egypt then left the region, they still left. So 3000 years later European Christians and secular Zionists and like Theodore Herzl get the idea of creating a Jewish state in Palestine, a pogrom-free place for Russian and eastern European Jews. So this is not unlike someone leaving a region they previously inhabited for thousands of years then suddenly deciding they want it back from the current occupant! So, little wonder there is so much trouble there. If you left you left. You can’t expect to come back and the Palestinian Arabs are supposed to give you all the land back. Doesn’t make any sense. I find it odd that you call people fighting to keep their own land ‘terrorists’ because they didn’t meekly accept British and Zionist invasion and occupation of their own country. In closing all I can say is you chose an appropriate moniker: “continuous deception”, even if you’re deception is not all that convincing :-)
This comment is neglecting the Mizrahi Jews pushed out of Arab lands in ’48. Many families left for Israel due to pogroms, forced shuttered businesses, etc. They had always lived in the region. Not from Russia.
Yes.obviously Palestine is a lineal descendant of Philistine,the good guys given a bad rap by invading serial liars.
I like the Red Dawn parallel. A movie we on the ranch, refer to often, to identify a certain white tribe. The blindness of exceptionalism – and be sure and wear your 3d glasses. (caution: seizures).
An engineered short circuit snap, to jump over caverns of truth to avoid the potential arches of reality right.
Obvious, yes, so obvious the creation of a demand for an emperor wears no cloths desire. The colonial practices of occupation is like the meandering river that has a section of bank “fixed” by a property owner, which will absolutely then meander else where. There is destruction/death, then rebuild, Wash rinse repeat.
The insistence by law and contract, to NOT PROTECT and NOT SHARE resources; has created this illusionary need to control resources given to us (by no less than God probably). We then, unlike God, create a (proven not so brilliant) illusionary and static control using a capitol means, using capital practices, that works only to sustain capital; at the destruction of much, and a questionable comfort (conscientious) for some, that most of us would not trade our poverty for. Anyway…
This has gotten us all into a hellish pickle.
Probably at a cost of no less than our souls, maybe.
Hope I’m not missing the point of the Red Dawn parallel: isn’t true though that the U.S. gov DOES or TRIES to see/spin Islamic ‘freedom fighters’, esp. now in Syria. The U.S. gov has and is training/equipping freedom fighters or terrorists since the 80s, right?
• Russia vs Afghanistan (U.S. supports Mujahadeen) 80s edition
• Iran vs Iraq (U.S. supports Baathists largely non-religious) 80s edition
• Iran vs Iraq (U.S. sides with Shia / incidental Badr militia support / Iran)
• perhaps I could go on…
These folks do occasionally get spun in the news as freedom fighters when appropriate.
Maybe you’re saying though that the general American population may fail to see the shoe on the other foot or is hypocritical.
I guess to answer the question what is allowed? Whatever the folks in power say they want.
Kudos to the commenters who have taken Jonah to task. Clearly, this is not a forum where rank bigotry against a religion and its adherents is tolerated.
Also too, JONAH, from my perspective as a (hopefully non-bigoted) Jew, you’re a fucking embarrassment. Fuck you.
(Glenn, will I be allowed to use the Eff Word under the new guidelines?)
We fucking better be able to say “Fuck you!” or that’d be bullshit! But seriously, I could imagine Glenn forbidding the right to work blue right around the time he decides Dick Cheney is a great guy.
Nice to see you back Gator. I knew you couldn’t stay away from Glenn. Glenn Greenwald is like an addiction. Once you’re hooked, you’re hooked.
He keeps pulling me back in! (Wait, did that sound homo-erotic? Oh well, whatever.)
Thank you for the great work!
What’s Allowed? True fairness. From the Talmud, “If a man comes to kill you, rise early and kill him first”.
In which case, the Arabs of Palestine should have been killing each wave of Zionist settlers, certainly after Jabotinsky’s call — in the 1920s — to violently expel them from their villages and homes.
Fortunately, most Jews don’t pick some sentence from the Talmud and build massacres around it.
Reminds me of the Six-Day War.
Reminds me of Hitler.
If you don’t like something somebody said, and you want to stick it to them, there are many ways to do it. Hitler is a particularly ugly way to stick it to someone who’s Jewish.
You’re clearly taking it out of its textual and historical context to paint a negative picture and are generalizing.
Very timely article, thanks Glenn for calling out the glaring double standards and hypocrisy: Palestinians are ‘terrorists’ for resisting the brutal years long occupation of their own land; and those who try to boycott Israel, as South Africa also was, are now being made illegal and/ or branded ‘anti-Semites’–even if they are Jewish! Illinois just made headlines by being the first state to list 11 companies banned from doing business with the state because these companies have boycotted Israel or its settlements on Palestinian land. This is really dirty pool. They have the gall to illegalize what has always been an accepted form of non-violent resistance, to boycott. So now if you try to act upon your conscience by choosing not to do business with a company based on an Israeli settlement on Palestinian land–land Israeli settlers actually stole from Arabs–the state of Illinois then BANS you from doing business with it! 20 more states are right now getting ready to pass similar legislation. AIPAC must be very, very active these days behind the scenes pressuring state legislators to draft this legislation and get it passed–and pronto! Here is the article source on this, from Mondoweiss-
http://mondoweiss.net/2016/03/illinois-lists-11-companies-banned-from-doing-business-with-state-due-to-bds/
There evidently is no limit to how low Israel and its American Zionist supporters will go to pretty much stop ALL forms of peaceful protest to the illegal occupation and ongoing land theft of Palestinian land. Outrageous.
“Palestinians are obliged to submit to Israeli occupation in a way that none … would ever themselves submit to occupation…”
But, Jews actually did largely submit to a type of “occupation.” Under Hitler. Though there certainly must have been acts of bravery by many German Jews in the 30s I don’t recall any massive resistance in the broad daylight or out in the open the way Palestinians, young and old, risk their lives to fight against a terrifying, murderous enemy. So, maybe the underlying truth about this issue is partly psychological as Israelis seem to have a mental problem over the Holocaust imagery of Jews marching “obediently” into gas chambers. When Palestinians openly and loudly risk their lives every day to fight against occupation it must subconsciously make Israelis go nuts because that is definitely NOT the image of the Jewish Holocaust. I think it was Elie Wiesel who wrote long ago about the word “savonim” (soap in Hebrew) that Sabras used to humiliate surviving European Jews arriving in Israel in the late 40s. They looked down upon these suffering survivors for not fighting back against the Nazis. They saw these survivors as utter cowards. Those heart breaking images of Jews marching in obedient lines is a complete reversal of modern images of Palestinian men, women and children defying Israeli occupation. I may be wrong about this but I do wonder if Israelis are not insanely furious at Palestinians just because they are not marching obediently to their illegal occupation.
I was thinking the same thing, especially since Glenn Greenwald mentioned Red Dawn. It brought to mind another trashy, jingoistic 80s action movie: Rambo: First Blood 2. There’s a line where Rambo, who is preparing to go on a mission in Vietnam in 1984, asks “Do we get to win this time?”. There was this weird obsession with wanting to replay the Vietnam War, only to have a different outcome.
I suspect that a lot of this IDF jingoism represent a wish to re-fight the massacres of the past, only to “win” this time around. That’s why IDF officers are still sworn in vowing Masada will not fall again, which is sick and moronic.
I think there is a lot of truth to this, though it pains me to say so. A great deal of the affinity for Israel among many Jews is, in my view, bound up in the notion of Jews finally fucking WINNING, for once. Israel winning the wars of 1948 and 1967 was like the Cubs winning the World Series, times 6 million.
Recently I watched a rather good biopic of Hannah Arendt. Most of it takes place in the early 60s.
She went to Israel to cover the Eichman trial and encountered Jewish friends she’d known in Germany. One older man explains to Arendt that the younger Jews feel resentment toward the Holocaust survivors like him, who are perceived as having meekly assisted in their own genocide.
The desire of those younger Jews to, as you say, “finally win one” is wholly understandable. Unfortunately, they chose to viciously “win” against an innocent indigenous people.
Which also explains why so many right-wingers developed a crush on Israel, even though many of them don’t like Jews: Israel managed to win a few wars at exactly the time when, as the late great Gore Vidal wrote, American manhood was “so recently kneed by the Vietcong”. In other words, “Israel kicks ass!”
Rahelah try researching the Polish ghetto uprisings. It was out in the open.
Personally, I don’t think any of Jonah’s comments should be deleted. As despicable as I may find them, it’s a very good record of how some people actually think, and if it were up to me, I’d keep them.
It displays a brain that has never had to be sensitive about how other people would react to their comments, as everybody around them is exactly of the same opinion. I’ve never been in a KKK meeting either. But unchecked racist commentary surely is interesting, from an anthropological perspective. Jonah’s comments, when I think about it, other than the hasbara bullshit, gives me some insight into the disease permeating through the Israeli Right. All his comments should stay. That’s my opinion.
Anthropologists should study why self-identified atheists such as yourself feel the need to defend a belief system that subjugates women, persecutes homosexuals and demands complete obedience.
1) what did I say that was racist?
2) Why are you so scared to speak the truth about Islam? What’s your deal?
3) Why do religious beliefs deserve a special privilege? The fact that the followers of Islam view it as sacred and the unalterable word of god is immaterial to me. In fact, that’s another reason why it deserves unrelenting criticism.
4) What is good about Islam? How does it benefit society in any way? What country has benefited from the introduction of Islamic governance?
5) What is wrong with my commentary? Can you explain to me why you find my comments offensive? Would you feel the same way if I wrote the same things about Scientology?
Scientology is one of the very few religions founded by a charlatan who didn’t believe a bit of what he peddled. As a new religion it has not had time to evolve into anything largely benign.
By contrast, Islam is one of the three Abrahamic religions that has made the modern world. For centuries, it has shaped, and been shaped by, the cultures of it’s millions of adherents. As with all three of the Abrahamic faiths, Islam has included adherents of great wisdom and learning who have given much to science, philosophy, mathematics & etc. It has developed theories of social justice, as have Christianity and Judaism. All three faiths include great diversity of belief and approach.
Having a background in a field related to cultural anthropology — namely, religious studies — I can assure you the great majority of anthropologists would hold disdain for your claims about Islam. And they’d be right.
First of all Jonah you can’t seem to acknowledge your own problems but can cast a stone in judgement toward others.
I liken ‘hypocrisy’ to this:
Jonah has a spear that unfortunately insists upon curving itself into a boomerang. He throws it toward his self image and it goes forth, takes a great perverted turn and comes back to WHAM, hit him in the head. He growls and shouts and curses that boomerang that produced a large lump on his head. So he gets another spear, and another and another. They too insisted on curving themselves and each time Jonah threw them, they came back and BANG, WHAM, OUCH…caused Jonah madness and anger because they were sent to his self image, and indeed reached it! This is the sad sickness of hypocrisy and its never ending self destruction.
Hey Jonah,
I grew up Muslim. Does that answer all the questions you had about me? Does it tell you everything you need to know about me? I bet it does.
I have no problems with you speaking the truth about Islam, as long as we’re all going to speak the truth about EVERY religion. Your problem is that you just like to talk shit about one religion. I can go on about any religion.
You wanna fight all religions intellectually? I’m with you. You wanna pick on one religion? You can go back to wherever the hell you came from.
No, I don’t think religious beliefs deserve a special privilege. In fact I have very little patience for religious arguments. But I am a human being. And I understand that people are sensitive about their religions. And I’m willing to be sensitive back, as long as the other person is not openly advocating bigotry on behalf of their religion. But in general, I’m an equal opportunity offender to all religions.
The problem with arguing with you Jonah is that whatever privilege you grew up under, and whatever superiority you enjoy because of your station in your society, has already ossified your brain. It’s not subject to any stretching or malleability. That’s the problem with arguing with you. It’s going to be very boring.
Maybe you’re right. Perhaps my “privilege” has made me mind a little rigid. I should be more open-minded about the merits of theocratic, fascist death cults. Good thing you called me out. I’m really out of line for condemning a set of beliefs that throws gay people of roofs, mutilates vaginas, denies women equal rights, imposes sex slavery on yazidis, limits free expression, restricts academic freedom, spawns sadistic terror gangs, kills innocents in concert halls, attaches suicide vests to the mentally disabled, allows thousands to die in pilgrimage stampedes, murders cartoonists, throws acid in the faces of women who want to get educated, etc….I could go on and on
These aren’t just ideas in a shitty, poorly written book. They manifest themselves all over the world; Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iran, Somalia, Afghanistan, Syria etc. All those countries are hell holes to varying degrees which is why people are fleeing the region. We are witnessing a migration of epic proportions and it’s because the doctrines of Islam have fucked those countries. Those countries suck because of Islam. The religion is not some incidental factor.
Sure, I will gladly speak the truth about EVERY truth. Here it is: Hinduism, Sikhism, Judaism and Christianity are nowhere near as menacing as Islam. If you were to total all the acts of terror committed in the name of those religions in the last 20 years, they would equal your average Tuesday afternoon in Raqqa, Syria. That is the truth. There is no hiding from it. Either you get on the board with this reality or you step aside and let the grown ups handle the unrelenting menace that is Muslim terror.
correction: Sure, I will gladly speak the truth about EVERY religion.
Don’t kid yourself Jonah. Not only are you open minded about theocratic fascist death cults, you’re in love with it: Israel.
I asked you once before to tally up all the collateral death numbers. You do that, and I’m sure somebody will get back to you with the terror death numbers. Personally, I no longer have the patience to un-muddy your tiny, dense brain. I just sincerely hope there are no Palestinians living near or around you. You’re an unmitigated disaster of a human.
Can you disprove one thing I wrote? I’m a disaster because I’m against the things I listed. Israel is a secular, democratic free society. Jews, Muslims, Women, Gays and all other minorities have equal rights under the law. It has more start-up high tech companies per capita than any country in the world. High tech hubs do not take shape in theocrati societies. You are astoundingly wrong about everything. D
Hmmm, let’s see:
About the bolded bits. Lookee here, to pick just one example from the Hindu fascism ascendant in India:
Now Jonah, was there some reason you picked a very narrow window — twenty years — for your assertion of Grand Truth?
so that’s 800 million people and you are able to find a few examples of Hindus murdering Muslims. What are you trying to prove? Are you somehow suggesting that Islam is NOT infinitely more violent than every other religion combined.
“Now Jonah, was there some reason you picked a very narrow window — twenty years — for your assertion of Grand Truth?”
Hindu terrorism is one pube hair in the 1970s Bush that is Muslim terror. There is no comparison and I picked 20 years because I was reasonably confident that one afternoon in Raqqa would equal all the terror committed in the name of all the other major religions combined.
If you would like me to stretch it to 30 or 40 years I’ll be more than happy to. If that’s the case, it would still be equivalent to about one month’s worth of Muslim terror. These are not hyperbolic statements. These numbers are very legitimate approximations of the truth. That’s what makes this so scary. Numbers, Mona. I care about the numbers. You do not want to play the numbers game with me. That will not go well for you
Let’s make it 600 years, And let’s include nation-states. How does your truth claim look now?
No Jonah, you said no religion is as “menacing” as Islam. Well Jonah, Islam doesn’t “menace. Neither do any of the other religions you listed.
There are 1.6 Billion Muslims in the world today.; they live all over the world. Hinduism has 1 billion adherents; almost all live in India.
In India today, Hinduism has become fascist and murderous. Nowhere else. Because there are very few Hindus in other nations. So, the rising tide of Hindu fascism and terror is essentially contained in India. And Muslims in India live in terror of Hindu fascists.
Muslims who commit terror are more noticeable to you because they are dispersed around the globe, and also, they are righteously pissed at the West. That is, aside from not being confined to India, they have rational motives to attack Westerners, as Hindus basically do not.
Agreed. When I want to point to the depravity of individual Zionists I have many examples from online interactions; he adds another strong one.
That said, if he were posting comments saying nothing but: “Fuck the ragheads,” I believe those should go. Lin Ming repeatedly spewed only some permutation of “Fucking Jews,” and her notions of Jewish (not Zionist) evil were sick. I support what Glenn did in banning her.
This is so much like the context of the mythical nuclear threat that Iran poses to Israel. At this moment, Israel has hundreds of nukes trained on Tehran, while Iran still lacks even the ability at this time to make a bomb. Despite this, it is Iran, not Israel, that is considered the biggest nuclear threat in the world.
Mona
“…….Depending, there can be value in allowing a revolting comment to stand. In the last week or so, a grossly Islamophobic Zionist here, one “Jonah,” advised Sufi Muslim she “must” change her religion because the one she follows is so barbaric & etc……That’s delete-worthy…..”
Really Mona? Isn’t any worse than all Zionists are racists or fascists?
Remember Bamage?
Stop flooding the comments in attempts to get my attention. Your endless, inane, often long and rambling comments annoy the shit out of many people, and we’ve been losing some good ones because of you.
Hi Mona
“……Stop flooding the comments in attempts to get my attention……”
No Mona, I’m not stalking you. I’m challenging your opinions which I mostly disagree with – especially when it comes to the IP conflict (at one of the “rare” articles at the Intercept on Israel). You know Mona, it’s a comment section – and you comment as much or more than anyone else. In fact, just two comments down, you posted the “Folks, we’ve reached peak Craig” – so who is trying to get who’s attention? Indeed, Mona, more often than not, you respond to my posts initially. What really upsets you Mona is that I continue to challenge your extreme (left) definition of anti-Jewish bigotry. What gets my attention is you calling someone Islamophobic with your record of endless provocative statements about big Jewish money and influence.
“……..Your endless, inane, often long and rambling comments annoy the shit out of many people, and we’ve been losing some good ones because of you…….”
Oh for fuck’s sake, Mona. Cry me a fucking river. Often I have wondered; is all the time I spend posting at the Intercept worth it? Good to see that it is. Your definition of “flooding” is anyone that disagrees with you (the site) politically and is willing to put up with the never ending barrage of name-calling, insults and attempts to discredit that person. I guess I could take a different tact to help you out. Here is some commentary by a loyal Intercept commentator:
“…….Again, I don’t have anything against Jews, as individuals or people, but if the over-influence of Jews, leading to an irrational support of Israel, as Israel now stands, by the US gov’t, goes against the US’s long term interests, solely to support an Israeli state, then I see it as my duty to point it out, criticize it and label it for what it is – treason……”
I could suggest we round up the treasonous Jews. Would that help? Delete me if you must Mona.
PS Sorry, I don’t remember Barnage. I’m sure it was a great loss for the comment section.
https://theintercept.com/2016/03/18/brazil-is-engulfed-by-ruling-class-corruption-and-a-dangerous-subversion-of-democracy/?comments=1#comment-212423
TI —
I haven’t read all these comments (there are SO many), but I did see something mentioned about comments not showing up.
Just had this experience: replied to elwood. Didn’t show up. Replied to someone else, then tried to reply to elwood again. I got an error page saying duplicate post detected. But so far, I don’t think EITHER of them has shown up.
Will someone please check on this? Thanks.
Yes, the term terrorism is just a body of some nations making rules to define what is considered outside the rules of war, like concealing your weapon and your side. Terrorists are an army just like the recognized armies with uniforms and structures. Both sides are doing the same thing, both harm civilians, both torture the other, and we need to stop, period. The “other” has concerns and issues just like “us” and the sooner that we accept our role in the total behaviour of both sides, the sooner that we can come up with a win-win solution. But that’s not the goal of today’s war corporation. Look carefully and see it has a vested interest in continuing to war. It is entire economies. The top people make the rules and the regular people on both sides pay the price. Well, we on the bottom have the numbers. We must stop this. It’s our responsibility to make the world the way it should be. Don’t just blindly accept the crap we are given.
Just wanted to add re the specific example of the author’s (though it makes no difference) that I came to the conclusion that the Israelis and Palestinians both detest the war that is forced upon them by the higher powers after living in that State in which they are brainwashed to believe the other will destroy them. That is how it continues, like Americans since 9/11. Individually, Israelis and Palestinians deal a lot with each other on a personal basis, but although Israel has the greater fire power vis-a-vis the Palestinians they continue to be drafted under the assumption that the State will perish without their army actively occupying those lands and people. This is not true. Israel is no match for a war with a major Arab country but it is the ruling power in the case of the Palestinians and it has the ability to offer peace without collapsing. However the people do not believe this. They operate in a perpetual condition of fear. That is the great justification for whatever it takes to keep yourself alive. That is the justification to not see the other as yourself. We are not all that different. We all seek the same basic things.
Folks, we’ve reached peak Craig.:
I. Love. That.
Yes indeed. I have never been in more illustrious company. I feel gooooood!
By the way, about those Alwaki and bin Laden videos I lent you. I have a new recruit and need them back! And, Glenn is waiting to borrow them, too.
Also, I’m worried that doing our organizing here isn’t the best operational security!
@Jonah,
The way you describe Islam is how you see it.
Others are allowed to see it their way!
Islam is not monolithic and there are many interpretations of it.
We take our Islam from the likes of ibn Arabi and Rumi.
The following poem by ibn Arabi sums up our Islam:
My heart has become capable of every form:
It is a pasture for gazelles,
And a monastery for Christian monks,
And a temple for idols,
And the pilgrim to Ka`bah,
And the tablets of the Torah,
And the Book of the Qur’an.
I follow the religion of Love:
Whatever way Love’s camel takes,
That is my religion and my faith.
And we are not bothering anyone or imposing anything on anyone and hate violence and the hijacking of the term, Islam.
What in the world are you talking about?
Is Sufi ok?
It was a reply to Jonah who suggested that I should renounce my path.
So re-name your religion. Pretend your religion is a night club and give it some snappy new name. Just re- brand whatever it is you are following. We need criticize this faith. There is a direct line between blown up Kids in parks and the religion. The fact that your interpretation is benign in no way minimizes the problems we are facing.
Why do you care if I criticize Islam? I’m not stopping you from believing or practicing your faith.
Why do you feel the need to point out that others do not see Islam as inherently violently? Many do and that is the problem. You might as well be a member of a different religion. You’re obfuscating. You’re not interested in ending the murder of innocent people. You’re interested in maintaining Islam’s “good name”. This is a problem
There needs to be more condemnation and more examination of this belief system. People need to speak out against it. This is abundantly clear. However, since you’re a persuasive and likable person, people will read your posts and hesitate to say anything. They will feel guilty about raising concerns about the Islam. This is manipulative and counter productive. Islam is more than a religion, it is also an expansionist political system that seeks to impose itself on non-believers.
Stop using hippie ‘peace and love’ bullshit to sell your theocracy. You need to confront the truth. These harsh realities are unique to the religion with which you self-identify. I wish it weren’t so, but this where we find ourselves.
I’ll reply to you in detail tomorrow.
1. Why should he re-name his religion because some people pervert its interpretation? Should good Christians re-name their religion when Christianity is used in the name of terror? You don’t criticize the faith because there is good and bad in all faiths. You criticize the person because he/she is the only one in control of his/her actions.
2. Go ahead and criticize all you want, but don’t tell someone to change because you think they should. Your opinion means less than shit to them.
3. There is no problem to point out the good in your religion after evil has been committed. Again it’s the same thing as Christian terrorists who shoot up abortion clinics or minorities. Most people want to maintain the good name of their religion or else they would want to convert. You have this fucked up reasoning that only Muslims are able to commit acts of terror. That is a problem.
4. How much more can anyone condemn Islam? It’s literally bashed all over the world every single day. Every single one of your points is ignorant and completely lacking in any critical thought. Christianity sends out missionaries to every single country in the world to convert new people to the way of Christ. They seek to impose their religion on non-believers.
5. Stop using violence to bullshit to sell your theocracy. You need to confront facts. These harsh realities are not unique to any religion, culture, or ethnic group. People have been attacking people of other cultures since the dawn of civilization. It is only when people cooperate peacefully to resolve their issues that we move forward as humans.
It’s literally too easy to destroy every single one of your points. Made me laugh though so thanks for that.
Oh my dear God. Where the fuck did you grow up? Just who the fuck raised you?
And to think, I actually felt bad for you, having to read anti-semitic comments. To think I was actually worried about your fucking sensitivities. You’re a piece of shit. Personality of a selfish 13 year old. You’re the kind of superior fucker that makes me hate religion.
Sufi, don’t engage him. Just don’t do it.
He’s a total POS. But then, he’s a rabid Zionist. A Venn diagram of the two would show extensive overlap.
Kids getting blown up in a park is the end of the line. There is no reason for it to continue. Hundreds died from a heat wave in Pakistan during Ramaddan last year because they were fasting. Thousands were killed in another stampede during the Haj. These are all avoidable deaths. All deaths caused by Islam are avoidable. It is 2016. There is no reason why I owe Islam the privilege of not disrespecting it. I
Of course you don’t owe Islam anything. Nobody does. But let’s do some equal opportunity disrespecting. If it weren’t for Judaism, there’d be a lot less dead Palestinians. So you go ahead and tell Jews to change their religion, and then you can tell Sufi to changer hers.
The world is filled with “other people.” And you’re a child.
dead Palestinians are the result of Islam. Jews and Zionists do not commit acts of religious terror outside of Israel. Muslims commit acts of terror all over the world. Therefore one must infer that the vast majority of violence perpetrated by Israel is done as a response to Islamic terror.
If Jews committed terrorism at the rates Muslims do, I would be the first one to urge mass apostasy. I would jump ship so fast.
The fact that you equate what happened in Lahore with Israel’s military incursions demonstrates what a fucking moron you really are. The IDF is a secular army. When it launches an offensive it is doing so to attack militants and their infrastructure. These are secular battles done in the interest of national security. Some members of the IDF aren’t even Jewish. Are they also killing Palestinians in the name of Judaism? Do you really not get this?
What purpose is served by a member of the Taliban entering a park filled with children and blowing himself up? What justification can there possibly be for such an unspeakable act of evil?
http://www.globalresearch.ca/us-gave-israel-green-light-for-sabra-shatila-genocide/5305298
Yes, they do. The Jewish Defense League was the FBI’s #1 domestic terrorist organization in the 1980s. They murdered at least one prominent American Arab spokesperson after he appeared on a popular news program here.
Moreover, Margaret Truman reports that Zionist terrorists sent a letter bomb to her father at the White House. They sent many of those to various British officials in Britain as well.
More people died in the Brussels attack than in the history of Jewish terror outside Israel. The JDL is one pathetic false equivalence. You are joke, Mona
Jonah translated: “I hate that you have facts showing I am talking out of my ass when I claim that Jews and Zionists do not commit acts of religious terror outside of Israel.”
You are a pedantic, time-wasting apologist for the most totalitarian and intolerant belief system on the planet. Good for you, Mona. You found a few examples of Jews blowing up stuff and killing like 2 people 30 years ago. Way to go. I guess all religions are equally dangerous. Some Jew a set off a bomb in Oakland 30 years ago so I guess I should stop worrying that in the last
In the 1980s, the FBI listed the Jewish Defense League as the #1 domestic terrorist group. Jews represent a tiny sliver of the world population; yet, this Jewish terrorist organization was the FBI’s # 1. The JDL is also nervously monitored in other Western nations, and Israel actually has made it illegal. (But it operates still, often under different names. And commits massive amounts of terror in the West Bank.)
Okay, I won’t.
He can go to one of our websites and find out who we are: http://www.askonline.co.za
He can also read about Perennial Philosophy to which I adhere, and read Frithjof Schuon, Rene Genon, Seyyed Hossein Nasr, William Chittick, Rumi, ibn Arabi, Dara Shikoh, Shaykh Kabir Helminski, Shaykh Fadhlalla Haeri, Martin Lings, Titus Burckhardt, and understand how we see Sufism and how it is integrated with the original Islam.
To understand the Quran, he can rely on Muhammad Asad’s commentary, and the Sufi commentaries by Shaykh Fadhlalla Haeri, which he can find through the above link.
For Shariah, he can read Dr. Abou El Fadl’s book, “Reasoning with God”. This book will also detail what Salafi/Wahhabi movements are and their effects on traditional Islam. It will also present penetrating arguments on how to re-interpret the Shariah for today’s world.
He can also look up Dr. Shabir Ally and see what he has to say about how to interpret the Quran and Islam in today’s world.
But mostly, he will know about us from the above-mentioned website and the Sufi scholars I listed above.
Also, he’s giving me too much credit: I do NOT carry so much weight around here that people are somehow afraid to criticize and demonize Islam. He seems to be delusional on this point.
We Muslims are actually more concerned about the cancerous tumors within us than others since they affect us directly and many people mistake the healthy parts of Islam for the tumors, as Johan continues to do.
Changing the name of our path is not the answer. It’s superficial. Moreover, the word, Islam, to us is not a label or a noun. The word means “yielding/submitting” and its root meaning is “peace”. It refers to the inner state of peace that comes from the lower self yielding/submitting to the higher self. Since I have often described the qualities of the lower and the higher self, I don’t need to list them here.
Thanks,
Should all Christians be made to answer for the Iraq war?
Everyone (no matter what title they are) that voted for the Tyrant whose deception caused that war is accountable.
lol!!! Great take. The American army is secular. It is not fighting in the name of Christianity. Muslim Americans were also killed fighting for the US army in Iraq.
The American military is only semi-secular. There is no question that the attitude of “God and Country” permeates the very religious U.S. armed services. Certainly a born again Christian president was Commander in Chief, and spoke of God often. Including when he lobbied hard for that war.
Congress did not approve the Invasion of Iraq because of Jesus. Do you really believe that? I would have guessed you thought it was a Zionist plot.
Rudaism.
The current government of the state of Israel is dishonoring the legacy of Judaism. The occupation of the West Bank needs to end and a diplomatic solution achieved without a “broker” with his/her thumb on the scale to skew the result.
Not been here a while.
There are things that you can and cannot do in the world.
Depending on where you are.
In America, you cannot criticize the military, and if you do, in public, you can be sure that you will meet someone who vigorously disagrees.
Sit on your butt and refuse to put your hand over your heart while mouthing the silly words of ‘The Pledge’ or to mouth the words to ‘The Spam Strangled Burgers’ at the local stadium while the F-16s do a flyover . . . . you’ll get a punch in the nose.
As Mr. Greenwald suggests, criticize Israel and you become a Jew-hater, Holocaust-denier.
Criticize the police or suggest that there is something to Black Lives Matter and you become Un-American, unless you’re a foreigner and you become anti-American.
Funniest term ever.
Can you imagine being called ‘anti-French’?
Remember when they were called ‘Cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys’?
Any self-respecting French person would look at that critter and probably give that person a hug for being as cute as Jerry Lewis.
‘Terrorist’ has no meaning any more.
Nor does ‘anti-semite’.
Somebody, besides Mr. Greenwald or Mr. Fisk at the Independent, needs to clue in the clueless.
Being accused of anti-semitism for opposing the policies of the state of Israel is equivalent to being accused of racism for opposing the policies of the Mugabe regime in Zimbabwe.
In contemporary mass media parlance the French resistance against the Nazi occupation of World War II would be called terrorism.
If they targeted civilians, then it’s terrorism
It is worth noting that in todays parlence the French restistance of WW2 would be called ‘terrorists’.
@Gator90,
Welcome back, Kotter, err…. Gator!
Putting myself in your position, I appreciate where you are coming from. We all have the same essence, and I see the light of unity underneath outer shadows (religious and cultural forms)
We Muslims are also experiencing stereotyping and generalization.
I can’t speak for others, but when I don’t reply to comments against the Jews, that doesn’t mean I agree with them.
Far from it.
I disagree with them, but when I see comments against anti-Semitism by those who are a lot more knowledgeable than me I keep quiet.
Should I speak out instead?
Please advise,
Thanks,
Take care,
Yes, Muslims get it far worse than Jews these days, in the West anyway.
I know you are a person of good will and I would not presume to tell you what to do. But when nobody pushes back against bigoted remarks, it gives the impression that bigotry is acceptable.
Excellent bit of journalism once again…reporting the facts! Thanks Glenn
By the way, in Red Dawn the occupying forces do, in fact, label the Wolverines as terrorists.
Governments always apply that label to any armed opposition (even if it’s armed with knifes, evidently). In recent times, that’s been the case in Ukraine and Syria.
Jose
“…….Governments always apply that label to any armed opposition (even if it’s armed with knifes, evidently)…..”
What difference does it make if the weapon is a knife? If you target a civilian, you are a terrorist.
How would you call firing rockets on Israelis cities just like that?
How would you call a palestinian woman who took a knife yesturday and stabbed a jewish woman in Israeli land?
How would you call a palestinian man who took a gun and fired into a bar at the heart of tel aviv?
How would you call an organization that its declated purpose is the destruction of Israel?
You told Isarel to leave Gaza! Hamas took over and continue to attack Israel with rockets. How would you call that?
I call it love.
And yet they keep building more settlements, day after day after day.
If you look on maps prior to 1948 you will see the city of Tel Aviv, Palestine.
Oh poof. Israel withdrew from Gaza because it was too expensive for the IDF to defend the handful of fanatical Zionist squatters there. Before they left, the Zionists destroyed everything they could not take with them. Hamas won a legitimate election that international observers found no fault with. Yet, contrary to international humanitarian law, the Zionist project operates Gaza as an open-air prison.
Hey kassandra , how do you explain this
http://www.haaretz.com/news/palestinian-militants-ransack-former-gush-katif-greenhouses-1.179788
also when is the next election?
Resistance ? Fight for your rights ? Quest for freedom and equality ?
Dear Hasus,
Hagannah..Stern..just did that…they were called terrorists by the British ….please learn from your own history
Nothing but love all the way around.
Native American support for BDS is strong and pervasive
Such a one sided article . Who paid for this shallow content?
What an insightful and provocative comment. Real food for thought. You should rest after producing such a coherent, complete refutation.
Not you.
NOT the Jews…
Ling Ming, “the Jews” are not a hivemind with a single wallet.
What the hell is wrong with you people? Just what exactly is wrong with you people?
sorry, I meant that comment for lin ming
Israeli Zionist behavior?
We are not allowed to finger the bad guys?They destroyed 9 houses of families of the “terrorists”that target their soldiers,overnight.
They hold America in thrall,controlling all MSM framing of every issue, lie after lie,corrupt political coverage,using US troops as fodder for expansion and destruction of their self made enemies,but people aren’t allowed human reaction to evil.sheesh.
Yes,holding all Jews responsible is a reach,but only 5 % of Israelis call murder murder.
If any people need an awakening of humanity,they are it.
@NUF SAID
My experience of Palestinians has been fairly limited, but as far as I can tell they are no more inclined toward anti-semitism than anyone else. They seem quite capable of distinguishing between the Jews who oppress them and those who do not, and of understanding that oppression is part of the human condition and not intrinsic to any particular faith or ethnicity. Wish I could say the same for some of the folks around here.
Hey Gator90: Your comment about comments isn’t showing up for me for some reason (though I do see it in the system, so I’ll answer here):
1) We do have a practice of deleting overtly bigoted speech and banning repeat offenders. Since we don’t have moderators working 24/7, this isn’t always done immediately. This post was just published yesterday.
2) As someone who reads comments quite regularly, I vehemently disagree that anti-semitism is clearly the most commonly or frequently expressed form of bigotry. I’ve constantly seen similar strains directed toward Muslims and – when the topic of the article is relevant – African-Americans, Latinos, women and LGBTs.
3) If you think anti-semitism is expressed with particular frequency here, you should talk to comment moderators or journalists at other outlets with comment sections. I can assure you they will instantly tell you that you’re wrong and that it’s very, very common at most places on the internet with free commenting.
In fact, many – maybe most – media outlets have now done away with comment sections altogether, or outsourced them to places like Facebook, and the need to delete offending comments is a major reason why.
4) The user in question here, Lin Ming, has been banned and the offending comments have been deleted. That said, I strongly suspect that this commenter thought s/he was doing something cleverly satirical – with the intent of accusing Israel critics of hating Jews – but the comments, standing alone, violated our practices (and, by the way, commenting guidelines will be published shortly).
Nice to see you back! Even if it is to complain abou the comment section.
I never got that sense. She’s a Trumpista, and spews inanity all over the place. At Segura’s fantastic long-form piece on criminal forensics, “Lin Ming” trashed it and wrote: “tl;dr.” She loves hating on Israel, but from a distinctly illiberal POV.
But thanks for cleaning up the vomit in aisle 3.
Commenting guidelines! That should be interesting…
I don’t believe I said or implied that “anti-semitism is clearly the most commonly or frequently expressed form of bigotry” here or elsewhere. It is commonly and frequently expressed here, though.
In the past, I don’t think you ordinarily deleted even the most vicious anti-semitic comments. To the extent you are doing so now, I suspect it is because the consistent failure of your readers to express disagreement with such comments became something of an embarrassment.
That’s also why I questioned whether Lin Ming is a “troll” as that term is commonly understood. Given how seldom your readers express disagreement with anti-semitic statements, I can’t help but wonder how many in fact agree with such statements.
My dear Gator, he surely has! This I know well, because back in ye olde days of Salon I fumed and spat at a crude antisemite infesting Glenn’s comments. Then, lo! My reply went “poof! “with the cretin’s.
So, I emailed Glenn telling him I was going to complain all over the Internet that he’d censored me and violated my free speech rights. Whereupon, he informed me that he’s heard I can sue him for stuff like that. ;)
I assume he did not routinely delete them as a matter of course, because many such comments used to sit there forever and often generated lengthy debates/discussions that did not go poof. If he has been deleting anti-semitic comments for a long time, it has been in very inconsistent and haphazard fashion.
Depending, there can be value in allowing a revolting comment to stand. In the last week or so, a grossly Islamophobic Zionist here, one “Jonah,” advised Sufi Muslim she “must” change her religion because the one she follows is so barbaric & etc.
That’s delete-worthy. On the other hand, I think it should have stood (as it did), because it shows the depravity of Jonah’s worldview better than I or anyone else could explain it. But I would oppose a significant diet of that kind of filth in our comments.
Islam is barbaric. However, its barbarism manifests itself on spectrum. In many cases, there is no barbarism and the religion produces benign effects. I’m tired of Islamic terror. It is too grotesque, widespread and commonplace to stomach any further. I believe apostasy on a massive scale is the only solution to this problem. Islam is an utterly pointless belief system. I suggested to “Sufi Muslim” that I think he would be advised to seek alternatives paths to enlightenment and transcendence. Perhaps I used more definitive language. I’m too lazy to go find the comment. I can’t specifically remember how I phrased it. It may have been framed as a suggestion. Either way, we should always be re-evaluating our beliefs. If I was a Muslim, the unacceptable rates of terror in the name of my religion would definitely compel to take another look at my religion. Islam is a belief system. I do not care if other people find it sacred. I do not afford religion any special privileges.
Jonah’s comment, lightly edited for humanitarian reasons:
_____________________________________________________
Humanity is barbaric. However, its barbarism manifests itself on spectrum. In many cases, there is no barbarism and Humanity produces benign effects. I’m tired of Humanity’s terror. It is too grotesque, widespread and commonplace to stomach any further. I believe humanicide on a massive scale is the only solution to this problem. Humanity is an utterly pointless [group that we all belong to]. I suggested to “another human” that I think he would be advised to seek alternatives paths to enlightenment and transcendence. Perhaps I used more definitive language. I’m too lazy to understand that labeling any group unilaterally is stupid. I can’t specifically remember how I phrased it [but it was stupid]. It may have been framed as a suggestion. Either way, we should always be re-evaluating our beliefs. If I was a human, the unacceptable rates of terror in the name of my humanity would definitely compel to take another look at my humanity. Humanity is a [group that we all belong to]. I do not care if other people find it [full of other humans]. I do not afford humans any special privileges.
The world knows that 19 year old Israeli medics are barbaric.
You clowns are going down,baby!Yeah!And when you do,it will be the antisemites fault!hahahahah…
“…….That’s delete-worthy…..”
Really Mona? Is it any worse than all Zionists are racists or fascists?
That is absolutely not the reason. We’ve always tried to do so, though it’s true there wasn’t a vigilant or quick system in place since most of our attention was devoted to developing the site’s reporting and comment section moderation was one of the things that took awhile to get going.
I hate being judged on things I *don’t* say, and I feel the same way about my readers. I suspect people don’t often respond to someone spewing over anti-semitism because such individuals are often filled with hatred or trolling, making responding a waste of time – not because huge percentages of my readership secretly agree with anti-semitic bile.
“I suspect people don’t often respond to someone spewing over anti-semitism because such individuals are often filled with hatred or trolling, making responding a waste of time – not because huge percentages of my readership secretly agree with anti-semitic bile.”
Yet anti-Islamic bile is met by poster outrage rather quickly. How do you explain ?
Ding ding ding!
We have a winner!
Yes, that should be interesting. I’m very curious.
Craig is gonna be in trouble with his repetitive comments… hahah just kidding Craig.
I was feeling a little emotional reading some of these comments this late. So it was very good to see your posts gator. I’m feeling much better.
No one explains their atrocity like a hasbarat; “oppression is part of the human condition” and most Palestinians know who’s oppressing them and who’s just watching … Hey, it’s normal to steal land on a daily basis. It’s normal to have an occupying force killing the locals on a regular basis.
If anyone sends money to Palestine it’s normal to jail them. If they dare to send medical supplies to Palestine they are murdered by Jews. If they send money to Israel, however, they are rewarded with a federal tax deduction.
Well, it is “normal” in the sense of being a recurring theme in human history. It is not normal in the sense of being acceptable.
I certainly wouldn’t expect Palestinians, or anyone else, to accept it. My point before was that most Palestinians, to my knowledge, are perfectly capable of opposing it without being raving bigots.
I wondered if that was your point.
In what way are they capable of “opposing” the occupation? From a Palestinian perspective, Jews are denying Arabs legitimacy in all aspects of society (even Israeli Arabs are treated differently than Jews). The direction of everything is pointing in favor of the Jewish state. Who wouldn’t bitch about that?
I think most anyone would bitch about that, and with good reason.
You and I actually don’t disagree as often as it might appear. (Certain alleged qualities and habits of a certain ethno-religious group notwithstanding…)
Thanks Gator.
Just an excellent column. Thanks.
“There have been Palestinian attacks on Israeli civilians of course (while far more Palestinian civilians have died at the hands of the Israeli army), but in these specific cases, these Palestinians are attacking purely military targets, not civilians.”
vs
[Person on My Side] criticizes us for [Atrocity by Our Side]!
But where was [Person on My Side]’s condemnation of [Atrocity by the Other Side]?!?
Mr GG:
I am sorry for playing devil’s advocate but how is your article here not an example of Schwartz’s MadLibs?
poor cutthroat so-called palestinians
Well said.
http://m.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Palestinian-requests-to-convert-to-Judaism-rejected-automatically-449987#article=6017ODNCNEJBMzA4NUEyRTE3NjA0NzQxOTFDMjdCQzZBNDU=
I have long wondered why Palestinians don’t convert to Judaism. Even there, the Jewish State of Israel discriminates against them. Their applications are automatically rejected based on their nationality.
Which is rather rich. Considering that Judaism has always been a prostelyzing religion and most jews and their progeny are converts from somewhere along the line, the fact that Palestinians are excluded is just another form of discrimination against them.
Judging by the examples set by mainstream public figures, the correct answer is “blind, self-destructive sycophancy,” or at least “pliant, unresisting sullenness.”
It is “blind, self-destructive sycophancy”. This, from a jihadi recruitment manual: “Make most of your speech about Palestine. This is because there is no disagreement (among the scholars and Muslims) about it and it is dear to the Islamic nation”
In other words, the situation of Palestinians is a major recruiting tool for jihadists. Yet, when the experts in the West talk about young people being recruited into jihadist groups, the emphasis is always on the young people being “radicalized”. In fact, this radicalization process is nothing more than discussing the murderous policies of The Jewish State of Israel against the indigenous people, the Palestinians. The recruiters don’t have to embellish anything, they just have to point to facts on the ground.
The experts in “terrorism” know this. Yet the West continues to support the Zionist project that helps produce bombings in Paris. Where is the logic?
I know full well that there are other recruiting tools, such as the West’s use of drones, but this discussion is about the Zionist project.
Kassandra
“…..In other words, the situation of Palestinians is a major recruiting tool for jihadists. Yet, when the experts in the West talk about young people being recruited into jihadist groups, the emphasis is always on the young people being “radicalized”. In fact, this radicalization process is nothing more than discussing the murderous policies of The Jewish State of Israel against the indigenous people, the Palestinians. The recruiters don’t have to embellish anything, they just have to point to facts on the ground…..”
Ah, young (Muslim) minds are easy to influence. Eventually, those young idealistic recruits might just wonder why they are in Syria-Iraq-Libya-Somalia-Algeria-Afghanistan-Pakistan-Yemen and other places killing mostly Muslims instead of the Jews. That has got to be a “wait just a minute” moment for the new Jihadists if they have done just a minimal amount of reading:
“…… “The Day of Judgment will not come until Muslims fight the Jews, when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say, ‘O Muslim, O servant of God, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.’……”
You hit the nail on the head Kassandra when you said: “Where is the logic?”.
The only time you show concern for the countries that you listed is when it suits your “whatabotery” excuse no. 4 in the Hasbara Handbook. And you know as well as I do that most westerners, unfortunately, are only concerned about what happens in the West. So let’s start by taking the Zionist project option off the table.for potential “terrorists”. This will lessen, not eliminate, the attacks against Western targets, both in the West and other countries. Need I tell you about the destabilization in the Near East instigated by your fellow Zionists, documented in writings such as “A Clean Break, A New Strategy for Securing the Realm”.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Clean_Break:_A_New_Strategy_for_Securing_the_Realm
I am not discussing anything new here. All of the foregoing has been repeated many times before by numerous “terrorism” experts.
And re your Koran quote, I can best you anytime by appropriate quotes from the Talmud, or better still, by rabbis such as the Goebbels-type that is the current IDF rabbi.
P.S. Your ilk really has to produce a revised issue of the Hasbara Handbook. The same old, same old arguments are getting tiresome.
P.P.S. I still believe you are a Hamas plant. How else would I have been able to introduce the A Clean Break document on this page. Thanks.
P.P.P.S. Actually the Christian version has a more interesting ending. After the return of all Jews to Palestine, the AntiChrist will be born and there will be the Battle of Armageddon. To be fought in Meggido. Then Christ will return and all the Jews not accepting Christ as the Messiah will be cast into the Lake of Fire. Forever. This is why the Christian neocons are so interested in supporting Israel — to hasten the Day of Judgement and ease their fast asses into Paradise.
Kassandra
“……..I am not discussing anything new here. All of the foregoing has been repeated many times before by numerous “terrorism” experts…..”
That’s my point. They are just repeating the propaganda of the far left. If you get a chance, Kassandra, explain to me why 5000 European Muslims have left Europe to go the Middle East to kill Muslims when they can stay right and home and attack Jews (or the west). Don’t get me wrong, these are dangerous times for the collective punishment of Jews anywhere in the world, but most of the killing done by terrorists target Muslims (by far) over any other group.
Terrorist organizations like al-Qaeda, ISIS (who has not attacked Israel even once), al-Shabaab, Boko Haran, the TTP and others seek power to recreate the Caliphate. They seek power, not revenge against Israel or the west. To gain power, they kill Muslims mostly – especially Shiites.
You can continue to believe that the IP conflict is a big recruitment tool, but it is not born out by the targets of the primary terrorist organizations – or their clear-cut goals. Most Muslims are peaceful in the west and in the Middle East. They may disagree with Israel and US policies, but that doesn’t translate to murder anymore than I will strap on a suicide belt because I disagree with Russian policies in Ukraine. It is just far left propaganda repeated ad infinitum……..
http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.fr/2008/07/how-to-make-case-for-israel-and-win.html
So the occupation and daily attacks on Palestinians are just leftist propaganda? So the fact that the dehumanizing policies of the Zionist project against Palestinians are used by the extremists as a recruitment tool are just propaganda? Those ISIS fellows do have other issues than just Palestine, but Palestine is a recurring theme in their recruitment material. Do some research. What is the Mossad motto? “By way of deception you shall make war?” In other words, create confusion so that the blame will be shifted elswhere.
I am including an old link from jewssansfrontiers which condenses the Zionist style of argument. Perhaps other teades here can pick up some pointers.
https://consortiumnews.com/2012/05/27/how-al-qaeda-exploits-palestine-cause/
Here’s what Osama thought about the usefulness of the Palestinian condition as a recruiting tool.
As with many rightwing Zionists including in Israel, Craig hurls “radical left” and “leftist” in a particularly asinine fashion. He doesn’t mean Marxists. Nor does he mean even support for a strong social safety net such as there is in Scandinavian countries (or to some degree in Israel).
For Craig these are snarl words that means only this: a strong critic of Israel who can’t be assigned to Stormfront.
Kassandra
“…….Those ISIS fellows do have other issues than just Palestine, but Palestine is a recurring theme in their recruitment material…..”
Whatever hapless Muslim joins ISIS because of the IP conflict has clearly been totally brainwashed by you, Greenwald, Awlaki, Bin Laden and Mona. And yes, they are up to something else – like creating a racist, bigoted, anti-democratic, misogynist society under a Caliphate. And they are not ISIS “fellas”. They are terrorists – plain and simple. Killers.
Thanks.
Gator is the epitome of milquetoast liberal Zionism,a conundrum that he can’t see, for the tree of Israel impedes his view of the human forest.
I think they actually believe their own hype.
“And re your Koran quote,…”
————–
It isn’t the Quran he quoted. He quoted something that in turn quoted a secondary source of Islam whose authenticity and context are debatable.
Thanks. Obviously, I would never have known that. But I do know that to take a partial “quote” from a 1200 year old document, out of context and with no annotations, is utterly meaningless. Especially considering that there have been and continue to be, discussions among the various Islamic schools of jurisprudence re its interpretation.
The west bank was part of Jordan. After the war Jordan didn’t want it back. There was never a Palestine occupation. Arabs lived there when Jordan controlled the west bank. Arabs live there under Israel control. Israel didn’t steal the west bank, unless Jordan did and gave it to Israel. Americans are hell bent on making Israel the bad guy. Hey they didn’t start the war that ended up with the west bank going to Israel.The USA has given billions to Palestine along with other countries. These great Palestine leaders just pocket the money. Arafats’ widow ended up with 7 billion that she took from the country and banked in Paris. Arafat knew war would be money in the bank. The same goes for the leaders now. So America keep blaming Israel and keep the Palestinians leaders in great realestate AWAY from the west bank.
What’s this, the IDF Rabbi Rafi Peretz history manual for little Zionists?
What? Billions are extorted from the American taxpayers and NOW they can’t complain about your insanity? MADNESS…
I have just one simple question: “Why on earth did these zionist jews want to occupy Palestine when they hate Arabs???” You are all LIARS and the blood won’t be erased from your hands. Your treachery and deceit is beyond pale. And if I had the authority…I would “BE HELL BENT” to cut you off in the first 5 min. of that office. Your sickening arrogance is hated world wide…and the sickening arrogance of your enablers are also hated. BDS Israel until “it” licks the dust for hunger and thirst.
“All forms of resistance to Israeli occupation are deemed illegitimate. That, manifestly, is the whole point of all of this.”
No, that is not the point is. The point is to stifle any opposition to Israel’s activities in the stolen territories for long enough so that Palestine will never be created, or at best a patchwork of bantustans the way apartheid South Africa had it organised for the blacks. The latter would actually fit quite nicely with Israel’s principles; it has become one of the worst racist countries in the world.
By the same token, the putting down of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising by the SS, and the resultant murder of tens of thousands either there, or later in extermination camps, must also be chalked up to an empire invoking its sacred right to protect itself against terrorists. I’m sure Netanyahu would agree.
This. Let see if I survive the censors on this one…
I’ll mention the low-hanging fruit, and simply point out they have never complied with a single UN Security Council Resolution (only goes up to 2009):
http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2010/01/27/rogue-state-israeli-violations-of-u-n-security-council-resolutions/view-all/
(for a slightly wider scope)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_UN_resolutions_concerning_Israel_and_Palestine
Whenever I point out the similarities between Israel’s behavior re: Palestine / Gaza and Germany’s re: Jews / Warsaw Ghetto, I get everything from blank looks to being accused of being an anti-Semite.
Thank you Glenn, for writing this piece. The Nation State of Israel are nothing less than genocidal monsters, and simply because of their ever increasing demand for fresh water.
Glenn, if Citizens United means money is speech, how can a bill like AZ HR2617 be constitutional? This bill forbids the state of AZ from conducting any business with any companies that support BDS.
! lol. plz put up a fundme on that one for SCOTUS. roflol. So you can “spend” money to speak but you cannot “not” spend money to speak. “holy gibberish batman”. Which means, you cannot not spend money in israel which means you must spend money in israel. Let’s see, you can speak but you cannot speak if the speak is illegal speak. Illegal speak?
the u.s. revolted against this sort of REDCOAT LORDISM in 1775 and now the thieves are back.
I propose that any elected or appointed person who proposes or supports in any way a law that violates the DOI or USC be removed from office immediately and if the jerk has a license to practice law, revoked. Let them pound sand instead of pounding us.
“then what is considered a legitimate means for Palestinians and their allies to resist and end the decadeslong, illegal Israeli occupation?”
THE legitimate means to end the occupation is to negotiate the end of the occupation with Israel on mostly Israeli terms and that is the security of Israel. If the Palestinians, you or the world thinks that Israel is going to allow a massive arms importation and militarization in order for the Palestinians to eventually throw the Jews into the Mediterranean Sea, you and the rest of the world are mistaken. As Obama has said, Israel is negotiating from strength and that is the way it is and the way it must be. Do you really want a militarized Palestine where continued wars as we see with Gaza kill thousands yearly? Israel must contain the borders and customs until a time when the Palestinians accept Israel and wish to live in peace.
For the time being. I’m an American, and when those 65 and over die and pass out of our electorate, and another generation of voters joins the millennials, U.S. support for Israel is going to dramatically decline.
Israel operates “from strength” with $3.1 billion in annual military aid from the U.S. It remains strong because the U.S. gives it our Superpower diplomatic cover, especially at the UN.
That’s all going to change. In the meantime, an economically distressed Israel is going to bear increasing economic and reputational harm and pressure from BDS.
israel murdered 34 American service persons aboard the USS Liberty.
israel murdered thousands of Palestinians in 1948 NAKBA.
israel murdered british soldiers when patch-eye whatsisname boomed the british embassy like any common terrorist does.
Now the israelis who hate America and hate the Constitution want to put Americans in prison in America for speaking out.
There is land aplenty for israelis who wanna lotta land. It’s there for the taking and one does not have to kill for it, just move there and occupy it. israelis can name the place Israel Majora or whatever suits their fancy. Right now it’s called Mars.
Wars that kill thousands yearly. Yeah, thousands of Palestinians.
The hypocrisy is staggering when Zionists like you try to paint an evil picture of Palestinians. You guys keep bringing this sentence up “throw Jews into the Mideterranean Sea” as if every Palestinian has sat with each other and agreed that this is the right course of action. Trust me, no sane Palestinian is planning to do that. They are well aware that Jews can be their neighbours and their friends. There are some bad apples in Palestinian community like there is in every community and Israel being a Zionist Imperialist State is no exception. The problem with you guys, is that you highlight the bad apples of Palestinians like it’s factual, while ignoring all the extremist Zionists who encourage burning Palestinian children. Let me remind you that Jews have lived with Muslims before, and let me also remind you that Jordan which is very militarized have not attacked Jews in decades, so if peace can exist with them, only a madman would think that as soon as Palestinians have a military they will throw it at Jews to murder them.
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.712319
Gideon Levy wrote an excellent opinion piece on the kind of future that awaits you and your illegal, apartheid, theocratic state, The Jewish State of Israel. “Light onto the nations”, indeed. North Korea is beginning to look decent in comparison.
Bow down!You are our slaves!the rabbi speaks.
Historical amnesia in allegedly intelligent people is a hoot.
Even if the Palestinians were to kill adult settlers who are civilians it would still NOT be terrorism. Terrorism is defined as intentionally killing are harming INNOCENT civilians. Civilians who help an unjust military occupation are justifiably liable to be attacked and killed.
Further, the Geneva Convention articles state that an occupied people has a right to defend itself. All those squatters on Palestinian land are allowed by the state to carry arms. They are ready to shoot Palestinians at will. And they do. They are not civilians by any stretch of the imagination.
ok. no more BDS.
S D B
Palestine is a Country
Jesus of Palestine
Hate speech is FREE SPEECH. Attempts to outlaw hate speech are unconstitutional in the United States of America that thousands fought and died for. People who try to steal free speech are TERRORISTS themselves.
I LOVE BDS
? is that hate speech or love speech.
You mean like Gov. John Kasich did here in one of the first debates?:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27bOEgYnBVg
“And no more criticizing Israel IN PUBLIC”.
So….is he suggesting that it would be acceptable to criticize Israel “privately”? Like at someone’s dinner party? But NOT at a “restaurant”?
thanks ^2!
Nothing is allowed, that is the quick answer.
It is so sad and tiresome that after all these years, we are still left with “The Jewish Question”.
Mona
“…….Jaysus, that one was a no-brainer. While the definition of “terrorism” is much argued about, virtually everyone includes killing innocent civilians, especially kids, who have no direct relationship to the harm the terrorists believe they are fighting……In other words, Jonah asked an extremely stupid question……”
Not quite as stupid as it seems. Can you find anywhere in the article by Mackey (“Dramatic Images of Chaos in Brussels Following Attacks on Airport and Metro”) where he mentions the word “terrorist” or “terrorism”? He never even mentions the word “victim”. And it is not an oversight!
At the Intercept the victims are the ones that carried bombs in their luggage.
https://theintercept.com/2016/03/18/brazil-is-engulfed-by-ruling-class-corruption-and-a-dangerous-subversion-of-democracy/?comments=1#comment-212423
zions (not jews) are part of a cult, an insect colony. They are not interested in facts, refuting, goodness, fairness, righteousness, and the like.
Jesus had a real problem with them so they killed him.
barabbas in his own words:
“…….Hate speech is FREE SPEECH. ……”
The anthill.One mind,6 million actors.
And then the idiot worker ant says acute observations are hate speech.
There is an obvious increase in human rights abuses. Disregarding international laws and treaties is becoming the norm. No doubt, there is a shift to barbaric tribalism across the globe. Thanks for the leading troops of the united states and their proud, bully and ignorant allies.
Certainly there is more pronounced shift to fascism in the Western-sphere. States are choosing what laws to follow, what laws to re-interpret and what laws to pretend to have never existed.
Where are the sanctions against Israel?
Where are the sanctions against Saudi Arabia?
Where are the sanctions against Turkey?
And the most important question of all:
Where are the sanction against the US?
They are instigators, insurgency trainers, money, arms and intelligence suppliers and aggressive invaders and outright destroyers of nations they don’t like.
Where are the sanction against the US?
Great question.
Where ARE the sanctions against the United States?!
I guess most countries are afraid to confront us??
A constant vexation…
I have BOYCOTTED my own government!!!
One has to wonder how this video supposedly done in secrecy is exposed here in the US when KSA is an ally! PBS and their propaganda is twisted to suit their big donors. http://www.pbs.org/video/2365704222/ Saudi Arabia Uncovered
The men and women of the French Resistance who fought against the Nazi German occupation of France and against the collaborationist Vichy regime during the Second World War were considered heroes.
BDS is working.
Bar Heffetz, an Israeli farmer and peace activist wrote on Facebook:
In the meantime, Israel just held an emergency conference to deal with BDS, characterizing it as an “existential threat.” In Israel, BDS is winning; the astonishing bolded bit tells you how besieged they are by the success of BDS:
The apartheid and occupation will fall.
Yes. And they will find their rightful place in history as one some of the worst atrocities of their time.
According to Greenwald:
“……But there is a highly successful campaign by Israel and its U.S. allies not only to decree this nonviolent boycott campaign illegitimate, but literally to outlaw it [BDS]…… my insert in brackets
https://theintercept.com/2016/04/03/fighting-israeli-occupying-forces-is-terrorism-boycotting-is-anti-semitism-whats-allowed/?comments=1#comment-217589
Wanna get involved in the BDS locally? Here’s a start of what to refuse to buy:
http://www.mintpressnews.com/boycott-on-aisle-three-avoid-these-6-products-that-support-israeli-apartheid/209498/
Thanks! I’ve already got the list.
Were the attacks in Pakistan and Brussels last week terrorism? Glenn has really muddied the waters on this one.
“Were the attacks in Pakistan and Brussels last week terrorism?”
Yes.
“Glenn has really muddied the waters on this one.”
Perhaps it seems that way in muddy minds.
Jaysus, that one was a no-brainer. While the definition of “terrorism” is much argued about, virtually everyone includes killing innocent civilians, especially kids, who have no direct relationship to the harm the terrorists believe they are fighting.
In other words, Jonah asked an extremely stupid question.
Mona, you don’t know me by now? That was a facetious question. But Craig makes a great point. I had no idea there was no mention of the word terrorism in this publication’s scant coverage of the attacks in Brussels and Lahore
It’s obvious to anyone without a pro-radical Palestinian/pro radical Islamist agenda that double speak and muddying the waters is exactly what this article is trying to do. Don’t be drawn in by its false logic.
Ant speak.
Jonah
“…….Jaysus, that one was a no-brainer. While the definition of “terrorism” is much argued about, virtually everyone includes killing innocent civilians, especially kids, who have no direct relationship to the harm the terrorists believe they are fighting……In other words, Jonah asked an extremely stupid question……”
Not quite as stupid as it seems. Can you find anywhere in the article by Mackey (“Dramatic Images of Chaos in Brussels Following Attacks on Airport and Metro”) where he mentions the word “terrorist” or “terrorism”? He never even mentions the word “victim”. And it is not an oversight!
At the Intercept the victims are the ones that carried bombs in their luggage.
What is happening to the Palestinians, and those who would help them overcome this awful occupation, is a direct reflection upon the way in which humans use language and meaning when discussing religion and belief. Just being able to smash and destroy what belongs to others, because they do not believe as you do, and in order to make it your own, which is exactly what the Zionist project is doing, does not make what they are doing right. Israeli’s are all saying that everything that Palestine stands for, or stood for, must now be destroyed. When the battle is waged, the underdog will prevail!
Here is just one example…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcZL-z9fdLA CBC Exposes Racist JNF Canada Tax Fraud
Why is The Intercept engaging in censorship?
Why are anti-Zionists so censorious?
I smell formic acid.
@Mona
Do you think if Plastenians elect a lesbian Christian plastenian woman as president, they can turn the whole palastenian issue into an LGBT cause? Which is a cause the West is very sympathetic to these days. You could have Corporations refusing to do business there like they did North Carolina or Georgia. After all, Netenyahu does think of himself as a republican.
This article brings up many good points, the problem is that it’s base assumptions are hogwash and propoganda.
‘When Palestinians fight against occupying troops on their soil”.
Let’s review some very simple facts:
A. There is no such thing as the “Palestinian people”. The so called ” Palestinians” are a group of regular ol’ middle eastern Arabs who got stuck under Jordanian occupation of Judea and Samaria (aka “the west bank”) between 1948-1967. No one referred to them as ” Palestinian” until 1964.
Prior to 1964, the only “Palestinians” were actually Palestinian Jews, referring to the fact that they were citizens of Palestine (the name the Romans gave to the Land of Israel, way before the birth of Islam). My very own grandfather still has his Palestinan passport from the days of British mandate Israel.
B. Israel is not “occupying” Judea and Samaria. “Occupying” would insinuate the area belonged to another country first. The only other country who ruled the area was, as we mentioned, Jordan. And that was only millitarily, between 1948-1967. Prior to 1948 the British ruled Israel, and prior to them, the Turks. As you can clearly understand, there was never a Palestine ruled by “Palestinians”.
C. There is not ONE israeli town (aka “settlement”) in Judea and Samaria that was built on the ruins of an Arab village.
D. You want to talk about claims to the land? The area of Judea and Samaria is the original ” Bible belt” – the Israelite kings (over 2000 years ago!) built their castles in Sebastia (Samaria), Hebron (Judea), Jerusalem etc. Israel is forever digging up artifacts with Hebrew writing- the same language spoken today, in modern Israel.
You want to talk about presence in the land? We can talk about the ancient Jewish community of Hebron, massacred and ethnically cleansed by rioting Arabs, in 1929 (way before any “occupation” gave them a “right to resistance” and a beautifully packaged excuse to murder Jews).
Or we can talk about the Jewish community of Gush Etzion, on land bought rightfully by Jews in the 1920’s, massacred and ethnically cleansed by Jordanian troops in 1948. Shall we go on?
The Jewish people are the rightful owners of Judea and Samaria. There is no “occupation”. A people cannot be “occupiers” of a land that is rightfully theirs.
If your argument is that the Palestinian territories belong to Israel, then Israel is unquestionably an Apartheid state. Agreed?
GG, while I am against laws against BDS, you neglect to mention that its goal is not simply to end the occupation. BDS is in favor of the dismantling of the state of Israel and it is therefore not merely resistance to the occupation. This is openly acknowledged by many supporters of BDS. To not mention this fact is to be intellectually dishonest.
“BDS is in favor of the dismantling of the state of Israel”
riiiiiight.
lol. the “fear the BDS talk” got on board with dear glenda becka into conspiracy land and will soon start telling us that UFO talk is code for hating israel. Also we must be very careful about saying anything about oranges from israel like “these oranges look kind of spoiled” which they will also deem as code talk hate speech.
THEIR PARANOIA NEVER ENDS…..
Israel is a theocracry & as such antithetical to everything the US (supposedly) stands for (separation of church & state, equal treatment under the law for all)). Why would dismantling a theocracy be a bad thing?
Isn’t it amazing?The complete mockery of our Constitution,in backing these crazy supremacists,who make the KKK and Nazis amateurs.
No. These are the three goals set forth by the founders of BDS in 2005:
Now, it is true that Zionists claim #3 equals “dismantling” Israel. Allowing the refugees and their descendants to return to their cities, villages and homes would change the demographics of Israel. It could no longer be an ethno-supremacist apartheid state because Jews would no longer enjoy a mandated super-majority in the country.
Of course, not all BDS supporters support goal #3. Many liberal Zionists do not, and representatives of J Street have endorsed BDS but not #3.
Their patrilineal descendants that is. Male refugees can grant refugee status to their children, but female refugees who marry non-refugees cannot. This brutally misogynistic practice is unique to UNWRA. If the 1948 refugees had been under the auspices of UNHCR, as are literally all other refugees on Earth or elsewhere, they would not be able to confer their refugee status on their children solely by birth.
I have never found a single person who can explain to me why the UNWRA’s discriminatory and misogynistic treatment of refugees should be allowed to persist.
“BDS is in favor of the dismantling of the state of Israel…”
Jesus H Christ! In your paranoid delusions.
Give Palestine to the Palestinians and get on with your life. I seriously doubt the farming community of the Country of Palestine is going to attack a country (israel) that has tanks up the wazoo, missiles up the gazoo, and nukes up the bazoo.
So what is wrong with dismantling the theocratic Jewish State of Israel, it’s official name? The apartheid state of Soth Africa was dismantled, so was the Nazi state of Germany. Even the Soviet empire was dismantled.
Yes, the people that support BDS are working toward a democratic Israel, where there is freedom of choice for all its inhabitants, not just for the jews, preferably Zionist Jews, only. Why do you think a theocratic state, with equal opportunity only for jews, is something to be treasured?
Edward Said realized that Israelis have guilt and don’t want to face it. When Israelis can face up to the fact that they’re oppressing people, or at least ask “What are we going to do?” then there can be progress. Until then, there is almost no hope.
There is always hope with good and honest and humble people. However this is not the case. Evil is arrogant (above & more deserving than others), persistent (always and forever) and mean (murderous).
I realize you are already aware of this, but i had a couple extra pennies. forgive my intrusion please. tyia
That sounds like Alcoholics Anonymous . That until you confront your alcoholism, there is no hope of recovery.
On this: “In California, the regents of the nation’s largest university system just enacted a resolution strongly implying that BDS activism is anti-Semitic and thus in violation of university rules.”
Consider the following arguments in favor of BDS which can in no way be construed as anti-Semitism, and which, if legally challenged, would result in clear legal victories for BDS supporters:
1) All Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza should have the same rights as Israeli citizens: the right to own land, the right to travel freely, the right to vote in national elections for their political leaders.
2) The ‘two-state solution’ is an argument for apartheid segregation that will never be implemented; the only plausible solution is a one-state solution in which all religious groups, Jewish, Muslim and Christian, have the same rights. This is in accordance with American democracy, a pillar of which is religious freedom.
3) The so-called ‘demographic problem’, i.e. that if all members of this proposed one-state solution are allowed to vote, they may end up electing Muslim leaders instead of Jewish leaders, is not a problem if the rights of all religious groups are strictly respected. One possible approach is to incorporate the West Bank and Gaza into a federation of Israeli states, much along the lines of how the United States operates – i.e as a federation of states, with each state electing its own governor and having a certain number of state’s rights.
If the BDS movement makes this solution its explicit goal, then there is absolutely no way this can be construed to be ‘anti-Semitic’ – it is a strictly anti-apartheid approach in which equal rights for all parties in the one state-solution are the fundamental basis of the BDS movement.
Of course, this also means that all members of the BDS movement must develop an understanding of the history of all groups that will be encompassed by the one-state solution – for example, knowing the difference between so-called “Sephardic Jews” and “Ashkenazi Jews” (i.e. the Mediterranean zone vs. the Eastern European zone), between the Bedouins and the Palestinians (nomad history vs. settled farmer history), and the Christian groups in the region ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Israel ).
Similarly, the ideal long-term solution for Jerusalem would be one in which all three major Abrahamic religions peacefully coexisted in the city, sharing governance and religious sites.
Who would be opposed to this? Israeli Zionists and Saudi Wahhabis, groups utterly opposed to the democratic concept of separation of church and state, the groups who currently control Israel and Saudi Arabia (and who are secretly in close cooperation with each other in their quest to retain their medieval grip on power).
This, by the way, is why the BDS movement should really consider expanding the boycott-divest-sanction effort to Saudi Arabia; perhaps taking on one at a time would be more efficient, though.
In any case, this is the approach that would utterly defeat the ‘anti-Semitic’ meme.
Your three arguments are well made and quite principled. However, BDS efforts in support of those efforts can nevertheless be antisemitic. Consider if I, in support of your three arguments, boycotted any African American professor who opposed them. Moreover, I boycott any African American business that infringes on the rights you listed. This campaign would be rightly seen to be racist, even though the principles it upholds are not.
Mr. Greenwald
You have two questions:
1. Why is the campaign to delegitimize the BDS movement successful?
2. Is attacking an IDF soldier terrorism?
“……But there is a highly successful campaign by Israel and its U.S. allies not only to decree this nonviolent boycott campaign illegitimate, but literally to outlaw it [BDS]…… my insert in brackets
The reason the campaign is successful opposing the BDS movement is because the goals of the BDS movement are illegitimate since the BDS movement grants Palestinian self-determination at the expense of Jewish self-determination. That is a nonstarter with the west (and obviously Israel). This is accomplished by calling for the right of return for refugees and by forcing the elimination of land and immigration laws that favor Jews in the Jewish state. Additionally, the BDS movement makes the invalid comparison of Israel to apartheid South Africa which is just propaganda – a topic that the Intercept knows a lot about.
“…….There have been Palestinian attacks on Israeli civilians of course (while far more Palestinian civilians have died at the hands of the Israeli army), but in these specific cases, these Palestinians are attacking purely military targets, not civilians. Those military targets are soldiers deployed to their soil as part of an illegal occupying army. In what conceivable sense can that be “terrorism”?….”
It makes no difference how many Palestinians died. If they target civilians with suicide vests, guns or knives, it’s terrorism. If they attack soldiers, it is not terrorism. If Israel calls the Palestinian attacks on IDF soldiers terrorism, then it is being exploited for propaganda. Of course, with the blossoming of Islamic terrorism world-wide, the propaganda only helps Israel’s cause.
Finally, the Palestinians need to continue to gain momentum in the international arena which is on their side, unify the Palestinian government (difficult with a terrorist organization), lobby for Palestinian statehood at the UN and in Europe, and replace the BDS movement with a more realistic set of targeted economic sanctions which specifically set the green line as the goal of the sanctions. Obviously, there must be compensation for the refugees.
There are many reasons to boycott-divest-sanction Israel besides the ongoing oppression of Palestinian communities. Most people focus on the Palestinian issue, as described in a recent letter:
“Palestinians have been facing an escalating wave of terror attacks by extremist Israeli settlers on Christian and Islamic holy places, with full protection from the most racist government in Israel’s history. The illegal and inhumane siege of Gaza continues, and Israel’s incremental and systematic campaign of dispossession and expulsion of entire Palestinian communities has intensified, particularly in Jerusalem, the Jordan Valley, and the Naqab (Negev).”
http://www.nooccupiedpalestine.org/letters-of-support.html
However, there are two other good reasons to support BDS:
1) Israel’s nuclear weapons program. Israel must be forced to come clean on the size of its arsenal and its deployment – and that means accepting a complete IAEA inspection of the nuclear weapons production program at the Dimona nuclear reactor complex. Otherwise, it belongs in the same category as North Korea – i.e. international pariah state.
2) Israel’s stated support for the ISIS terrorist group in Syria, and that’s right out of the mouth of the Israeli Defense Minister, Ya’alon. Israel should publicly repudiate this position – if not, how can it be considered as anything other than a state sponsor of international terrorism? Since the Israeli Defense Minister is calling for the rise of ISIS because Israel wants to get rid of Assad and, in coordination with Saudi Arabia, reduce Iranian influence in the region, regardless of the rise of international terrorism, then Israel cannot possibly be considered a ‘friend’ of Europe and the United States.
The American foreign policy establishment has been in bed with Israel and Saudi Arabia for so long that it can’t see what is obvious to any outsider – our close relationship with these states, both of which support religious fanatics who despise the American democratic system of government, is detrimental to the global interests of America. The relationships should be vastly scaled back; military aid should be cut off; and arms sanctions should be put in place until these pariah states agree to fundamental reforms in democratic governance and human rights.
“…….2) Israel’s stated support for the ISIS terrorist group in Syria, and that’s right out of the mouth of the Israeli Defense Minister, Ya’alon. Israel should publicly repudiate this position – if not, how can it be considered as anything other than a state sponsor of international terrorism? Since the Israeli Defense Minister is calling for the rise of ISIS because Israel wants to get rid of Assad and, in coordination with Saudi Arabia, reduce Iranian influence in the region, regardless of the rise of international terrorism, then Israel cannot possibly be considered a ‘friend’ of Europe and the United States…….”
For some reason, you get the impression that Assad has done nothing wrong and this whole civil war is a product of outside influence. The Assad regime has committed far more atrocities than ISIS or al-Nusra. The primary reason for that is their advanced (for the Middle East) weaponry, the chemical weapons stockpiles (now gone), Chlorine, barrel bombs, artillery, warplanes, helicopter gun ships and tanks – all used on civilians at various times documented by the UN, Amnesty and Human Rights watch. Assad has been propped up by Iran, Hezbollah (Lebanon) and Russia. AS I have mentioned numerous times, there can be no political solution while Assad remains in power – and he is the worst offender of human rights in Syria. The war is completely his fault.
Israel’s interests are as you stated except that Syria serves as a facilitator of arms shipments from Iran to Hezbollah. Arms go through Syria to reach Hezbollah. The more sophisticated missiles obtained by Hezbollah can reach anywhere in Israel. Hezbollah has tens of thousands of these rockets ready to launch in the event of a conflict with Israel. Hezbollah serves as a deterrent to Israel either fighting Hezbollah or bombing Iran and/or Syria. That’s why Iran and Hezbollah jumped into the Syria conflict. From Israel’s perspective (and I can only guess at the reasons), having an enemy of Hezbollah (ISIS) on the border of Lebanon serves a military purpose for Israel besides just interrupting the Hezbollah supply line.
And just because you might root for an outcome does not make you a state sponsor of terror. Israel has not supported ISIS.
“…….The American foreign policy establishment has been in bed with Israel and Saudi Arabia for so long that it can’t see what is obvious to any outsider – our close relationship with these states, both of which support religious fanatics who despise the American democratic system of government…..”
That is ridiculous of course. Israel is a democracy with full voting rights and political parties for Israeli Arabs. Israeli Arabs serve in the knesset and have served on the highest court in Israel. The Saudis are a different story, however.
“Israel is a democracy with full voting rights and political parties for Israeli Arabs”
(reading stuff like that when i’m eating always make me gag) What are we playing here, charades?
Israel’s Charade of Democracy
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/01/opinion/israels-charade-of-democracy.html
In America if you want to buy land, you have to pay for it. They tried eminent domain to rob us but that didnt go very real well. That’s because people have power in the u.s., fading but still workable. Now in israel if you want land, you just set a trap to lure in some Palestinians then you get them stirred up then you kill them then you take their land. From my point of view, that doesnt sound like democracy in action nor does it sound like democratic people in action. Sounds more like hitlerian stormtroopers.
Conquering people and stealing their land worked up until WW1 or WW2, no later than that. You have to be dumb as naked humping in outer space to believe it can work today.
The Symington Amendment prohibits U.S. foreign aid to states refusing to sign the NNPT (Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty). Israel has nuclear weapons and refuses inspections and refuses to become a signatory to the NNPT:
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/israeli-nuclear-arsenal-prohibits-us-foreign-aid-under-symington-amendment-61997392.html
How many U.S. presidents and Congresses have justified giving the State of Israel BILLIONS of dollars in aid, both military and otherwise is a CRIME.
Zionist authoritarian Craig Summers says Glenn asked:
Glenn phrased that wrong. There have been successful attacks on BDS, but they have not succeeded in “delegitimizing” the movement. Or if they have, only in the sense that at the state level in some of the Western democracies, the Israel lobby has succeeded in getting illiberal laws passed. But popular support has not come along for the ride and BDS continues to plague Israel.
Israel just held an emergency convention to address BDS, which they regard as an “existential threat.” Many sources, including those in Israel, report economic impact. Many sources document anger at being made objects of contempt a la apartheid South Africa.
So, BDS is working. Because it is, Zionists are desperately trying to eliminate the free speech rights of citizens throughout the Western world. Some of these have been successful in terms of what the law allows to be said, but not in terms of the issue per se.
Mona
“……But there is a highly successful campaign by Israel and its U.S. allies not only to decree this nonviolent boycott campaign illegitimate, but literally to outlaw it [BDS]…… my insert in brackets
Of course, that line from Greenwald’s article really stood out. The reason the BDS movement is not doing so well is for the reasons I stated. Western governments are certainly not going to hop on board of a movement which seeks to replace Jewish self-determination with Palestinian self-determination. That makes no sense at all. I have stated that for a long time – about a decade.
Thanks.
Sure – in a world where state rights supersede the basic human rights of the citizens that create and maintain the state, and the basic human rights of those this ‘citizen state’ interacts with around the world.
What a moronic position for any human to take.
Things are changing, CraigSummers, and there’s no amount of torture you and your ideological cohorts can put us all through to stop it.
Craig, like many Zionists, tries to render “self-determination” coterminous with ethno-supremacist nationalism. It’s not.
“That is a nonstarter with the west (and obviously Israel). ”
Too bad apartheid South Africa didn’t think of that argument. Oops, I compared one racist occupying regime with another.
How times have changed…
Back in 1986 California Governor Deukmejian called for divestment from South Africa to end apartheid:
http://www.nytimes.com/1986/08/31/weekinreview/california-s-tough-line-on-apartheid.html
What a shame that Gov. Jerry Brown doesn’t have the guts to lead the fight against Israeli apartheid against the illegally OCCUPIED Palestinian people now!
The Boers(and British) were saints next to the Zionists.I don’t remember assaults on the ethnic enclaves in SA,at least using tanks,planes and missiles.
You’ve come a long way, Bibi!
ya know…. if ya wanna git people to despise you? One really good way to do that is to rob them, or tell them they cannot critique you or you will hurt them.
Momar sasid things like that ya know – he had people who despised him. Bashar killed protesters – then they really didnt like him. And then there are the terroristic radical moslems who kill people who critique their religion in certain ways.
So it appears as if the radical israelis are looking to mimic the radicals the u.s. is fighting. Jumping into the same boat as radicals who fire upon people who critisize them may cause some confusion as to whom the u.s. is supposed to oppose. And if that’s not bad enuf, what if ISIS starts calling themselves israelis who are looking to take back ancient lands at the instruction of god?
“…….And if that’s not bad enuf, what if ISIS starts calling themselves israelis who are looking to take back ancient lands at the instruction of god?……”
They do – only they call themselves Hamas……
What’s the legitimate means to resist military occupation, you ask?
How about peaceful, non-threatening marches? Shouting slogans? Hey hey, ho ho we’re not gonna take it anymore Hey hey Ho Ho!
Something along the lines of hunger strikes, setting yourself on fire, laying down on train tracks. Holding up signs. Non-violence resistance. Ghandi or MLK comes to mind.
I guess you could call it the strategy of: “Shaming your tormentors”!
What’s allowed?
Under the First Amendment, most speech with exceptions such as “fighting words.”
You just don’t like that when you spew your anti-Israel hatred, people reply.
Citing Red Dawn as a source is beneath this website. The less said about that, the better.
Mr. Greenwald conveniently forgets that terrorism has a legal definition, both in the US and abroad. The Palestinian knife intifada easily meets the US definition and the Saudi Arabian definition, while it fails the OIC definition. An interested party could compare different legal definitions for terrorism throughout the world. It is, however, not meaningless as Mr. Greenwald alleges.
Mr. Greenwald also discusses “anti-Semitism” almost exclusively in scare quotes. I detest right-wing bloggers who discuss “racism,” as if such a thing never existed. Sad to see Mr. Greenwald taking a page out of their playbook.
Most on the left understand that the victims of discrimination determine the offense, not their oppressors. If an African-American accused me of racism, I’d listen to them and give them the benefit of the doubt. Mr. Greenwald will show no such respect to Jews; he has determined that he isn’t “anti-Semitic.” Thank you very much.
I sincerely doubt that Mr. Greenwald is incapable of criticizing Israel without slandering Jews. His reluctance to try belies his privilege and hypocrisy.
Or is it that any criticism of Israel is automatically declared to be slander by Jews …
Next sincere hasbarat, please.
You are accusing Jews of falsely crying antisemite? Do you accuse any other minorities of such behavior, or is it just a Jewish conspiracy?
The funniest thing is most of you can just sit back in your imperialist armchairs here in the U.S. and talk about how the Jews should do this or that, the Israeli’s. the Iraqis, the Arabs, the Koreans, etc. Meanwhile, we are living on and stolen from the American Indian and we rarely ever do anything to correct that situation. Much easier to be the armchair imperialist voyeur, as long as we can dictate our “morals” over there, while we exist everyday on a genocide in our own backyards, but let’s not talk about that as that would be too hard to deal with. Shut the fuck up and look at the blood in the soil below your American feet.
False.
While it was far too late, and some would say also far too little, the United States established the Indian Claims Commission immediately after WWII.
All tribes were given an opportunity to submit complaints about prior treatment, as well as any treaty obligations the United States arguably had not met.
Moreover, our law regards Indian Nations in the U.S. as “nations within nations,” and to a great extent on tribal lands they pass and enforce their own law. Whether this is sufficient recompense or not, the point is that the issue has not remotely been ignored. Further, American Indians, in general, greatly empathize with Palestinians and consider themselves in solidarity with them.
Mona, do Native Americans strap bombs to themselves and detonate on crowded buses? You will notice that the reconciliation and recompense at the conclusion of any armed resistance. The Palestinians should study up and learn about the benefits of ending an armed conflict. Japan and Germany are great examples of how nations benefit from surrender
Germany was a great example on how to rid the planet of an undersirable population; How Israeli of them.
See, the Jews were undesirable in Nazi Germany just as the Palestinians are in the occupied territories.
There were no buses at the time. They, therefore, sometimes did other things.
The Indians had no support for their resistance. The Palestinians, quite simply, do. #BDS
You implied the solution could be that the Palestinians should benefit from surrender. Surrender what a bombed out Gaza ghetto?
Just like the US fear and war mongering right wing does not want an end to Middle-Eastern conflicts as it would diminish their unimaginable accumulation of profits, the right wing war and fear mongering faction of Israel does not want an end to their conflict as it would destroy their worldwide security business, along with shrinking their sixty percent of global drone exports that Israel will no longer be able to market as battle tested. And all they have to do to keep it going is add some more East Bank settlements.
Don’t you wish the Palestinians had divided themselves vs the white man as the Palestinian haven’t,or at least to the extent of native Americans.Hamas- PA is that divide,btw,but not a gulf.
Medicine Crow’s ancestors worked with Custer against the Sioux,Cheyenne and Arapaho,in an episode of that divide and conquer.I wonder if the Crow scouts said lets kill two birds with one bad scouting report?
What happened in America was before international laws were created to protect such incidents as Israel stealing the land of others.The Zionists thumb their nose at these laws.
You’re kidding? The Indian Claims Commission? Have you ever read a book? Heres one to start. http://www.amazon.com/Behind-Trail-Broken-Treaties-Independence/dp/0292707541/ref=sr_1_1/181-8961452-2190417?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1459722518&sr=1-1&keywords=9780292707542
The Indian Claims Commission was a joke, used to put a band aid in public over a genocide.
Judging from your other comments, your sick in the head, so I’ll let it go at that.
Not only have I “read a book,” I’ve read each of the approximately 305 treaties various American Indian tribes negotiated with the United States. And, I’ve authored a scholarly article regarding academic treatment of the treaty controversies.
As I wrote above, many argue that the ICC was insufficient. Nevertheless, the United States made a strong effort in that, as well as via our courts enforcing treaty rights. And, again, American Indians, in general, greatly empathize with Palestinians and consider themselves in solidarity with them. They approve of the support Americans like me offer for Palestinians, so I will defer to them, and not to you.
Mona: “Nevertheless, the United States made a strong effort in that, as well as via our courts enforcing treaty rights.”
I’m one who would argue, strongly, that the ICC was insufficient. But Mona is absolutely correct. And the US courts (not always state courts) continue to be reasonably fair venues for Native Americans to argue their claims and cases and to defend their treaty rights, to the extent that is possible within the constraints of our system.
Just this month, the Omaha Tribe of Nebraska won a significant victory over encroaching “settlers” who have been trying to diminish the extent of the Omaha reservation:
Some of my friends, white and Indian, on the res and off, worked long and hard on this case for a very long time. I’m proud of them — and the decision is really a pretty big deal.
It’s Nebraska v. Parker Docket #14-1406. Decided 3/22/2016. If I add another link, the post will vanish.
Any similar opinions from Israeli courts WRT to settler encroachment in the West Bank available for citation?
whatever helps you sleep at night. The Native American experience is very removed from the American consciousness and that’s why you’re appallingly ignorant on the current state of Native American communities. Go visit a reservation in South Dakota. Out of sight, out of mind. You’re no different than a West Bank Settler. In fact, you’re far worse. West Bank settlers have to deal with legitimate security concerns. What explains your neglect of these communities? You just live on their land and pay no mind to the disgraceful conditions of their communities.
You’re land thief and a settler-colonizer. No treaty will ever change that.
You have no idea, at all, what my history is vis-a-vis Native Americans, but let’s say what you wrote is true: The topic is BDS, and the horrific oppression Palestinians endure from Israel with my country’s great complicity.
Very clearly, that is not a topic you wish to discuss, and when you do, you resort to all manner of fallacy and distortion of facts, if not outright lying. Quite unlike the great majority of Native Americans, who entirely “get it” where Israel and the Palestinians are concerned.
They probably “don’t get it”. They probably don’t get why they start counterproductive and devastating wars against a militarily superior nation. They probably don’t get why they decline “treaty” offers time and time again. They probably don’t get the desire to blow oneself up on a bus full of civilians. Then again, I don’t present myself as someone who speaks for a very diverse group of people. There are many tribes across North America.
The war is over. BDS is a strategy to keep this war alive. Surrender, demilitarize and recognize Israel. Everything will get better if they follow these three simple steps. Israel will withdraw from certain territories and the Palestinians will gain more autonomy. Israel may even prove to be a valuable ally and trading partner if hostilities come to an end. The USA would not have helped rebuild Germany and Japan if the Germans were still periodically dropping bombs on London. When you lose a war, it is incumbent upon the loser to drop to their knees and beg for mercy. If they do this, they will find Israel to be more benevolent than they would ever be if the roles were reversed. If the world actually cared about Palestinian lives and didn’t want to play armchair revolutionary, they would be pleading with the Palestinians to sign a peace agreement. It’s there if they want it. You s
Thank you. Obviously Mona and the other ones feel that US “acts” and “commissions” were good enough for the Native American. The rest we won’t discuss as it will make their heads explode. They have never visited a poisoned rez so they don’t want to see what would crumble their crap argument and world view.
You persist in telling me about things I have not read or done, and continue to be wrong.
Again: Native Americans overwhelmingly identify with the Palestinian cause. I’ll defer to them rather than to your and Jonah’s whataboutery.
BDS is working. Both you and Jonah are simply going to have to accept that reality; I assure you, Israel has. They’ve had to.
More formic acid;The American Indian has innumerable place names,sport team names(for some reason NA don’t like it?)and tributes to their way of life with the natural world.Their are no,or very few examples of place names abrogated to expel any memory of their existence like in the ant hill.From Massapequa NY to Denali Alaska,they are memorialized.
Right now,they are hurting,yes,from the ravages of poverty and alcohol and drug use,being thrust from their neolithic? existence into the modern world of materialism and greed,both anathema to their way of life.
And doesn’t the US govt owe them a lot of disputed back reparations for mineral wealth found on their lands?
More at source
Edward Abbey has a very good take on the Native American land struggle in his excellent book, “Desert Solitaire” which reveals some significant similarities between Native American land struggles over the years and Palestinian efforts to retain rights to their lands:
“. . . A second important difference in the situation of the Navajo Indians from that of others sunk in poverty is that the Navajos still have a home of their own – the reservation, collective property of the tribe as a whole. The land is worn out, barren, eroded, hopelessly unsuited to support a heavy human population but even so, however poor in economic terms, it provides the Navajo people with a firm base on earth, the possibility of a better future and for the individual Navajo in exile a place where, when he has to go back there, they have to take him in. Where they would not think of doing otherwise.”
“Poor as the land is it still attracts the avarice of certain whites in neighboring areas who see in it the opportunity for profit if only the present occupants can be removed. Since the land belongs to the tribe no individual within the tribe is legally empowered to sell any portion of it. Periodic attempts are made, therefore, by false friends of the Navajo, to have the reservation broken up under the guise of granting the Indians “property rights” so that they will be “free” to sell their only tangible possession – the land – to outsiders. So far the tribe has been wise enough to resist this pressure and so long as it continues to do so The People will never be completely separated from their homeland.”
– Edward Abbey, Desert Solitaire: A Season in the Wilderness
Cactus Ed, one of my lifelong contrarian heroes, despite the fact that he was as deeply-flawed an individual as . . . most of us are.
One day, a few years after Ed died, I escaped to Arches for a few days of solitary sanity. It was really early in the year and almost no one was around. I drove up to the little entrance kiosk, where a young NPS ranger, probably a summer temp, was engrossed in a book on her counter. It took her a moment to realize I was there. When she did, she just looked at me for a moment and then held up a paperback copy of Desert Solitaire. The first words out of her mouth were, “This is amazing!”
Lucky young woman, eh?
“No man is wise enough to be another man’s master. Each man’s as good as the next–if not a damn sight better.”
~Cactus Ed
Desert Solitaire is a one-of-a-kind book, that’s for sure. Desert Solitaire really explains the relation between a people and the land, he gets out of the suburban American mentality and into the real world in a way few other writers have:
“If a man knew enough he could write a whole book about the juniper tree. Not juniper trees in general but that one particular juniper tree which grows from a ledge of naked sandstone near the old entrance to Arches National Monument.”
I recalled reading that when visiting the ancient bristlecone pines in the Inyo mountain range, Eastern California.
But there’s no doubt that the Israeli war on Palestinian land has many similarities to the nineteenth century war on Native American groups – the mass destruction of American bison that was encouraged by the U.S. government was intended to drive tribes into starvation and poverty, just as the mass destruction of Palestinian olive trees by the Israel Defense Forces is intended to drive Palestinian villagers into poverty and homelessness. What, are the olive trees terrorists?
It’s that war against the land, the effort to turn it into a wasteland in order to drive the people off it, that is the most sick and twisted aspect of the Israeli government’s behavior in the West Bank.
Yup. It’s not an accident that Palestinian-American, Professor Steven Salaita, teaches Native American Studies.
What then about the Black Hills? They are still fighting. SCOTUS ruled that the Black Hills had been taken illegally and so, the USA decided they would offer money and buy them from the First Nation. They declined the money and said they wanted their land. But, the US refuses to give it back and insists on the Tribes accepting the payment. It is STILL a huge deal and although the court has ruled that the US is illegally occupying them there is zero follow thru in giving it back.
Yes, I’ve read about the Black Hills controversy. But it is not one I’m especially familiar with, at least not enough to hold forth confidently on the topic.
“What then about the Black Hills? They are still fighting.”
Yes, they are. Having spent a lot of time in that part of the country, I’m pretty sure that Charlotte Black Elk and her people will never stop fighting until they get their land back.
Hardly anyone officially disagrees — even the UN Special Rapporteur said the Sioux tribes are the rightful owners and the lands should be returned, and the current president (US-type) has voiced mealy-mouthed support. But none of them take any real action.
And, truth be told, there’s a lot of dissension among the tribes, with strong undercurrents driven by individuals and groups who think the Indians should just take the money, all of whom have competing ideas about how it should be distributed.
So, the occupiers don’t want to return the land, the Sioux don’t have real unity on the issue and the case remains . . . pending.
This is, effectively, the longest case in US legal history — so long that one of the best relevant histories, by the son of one of the lawyers in the litigation that led to the 1980 SCOTUS ruling, was published in 1999, and someone will probably have to write another chapter in a decade or two.
Black Hills/White Justice: The Sioux Nation versus the United States, 1775 to the Present
Also: the Wiki entry “Black Hills Land Claim” is a pretty good overview, with lots if relevant citations.
You have absolutely no clue. Tell you what: I’m taking your and your family’s land, and you can go live on a much smaller piece of land where I tell you. Oh, and BTW, you have to live as hunter-gatherers, even though you have no idea how to do so. Sheesh, what a wasi’chu!
Since I’m capable of applying basic ethical and moral principles to my opinions and positions WRT more than one injustice at a time, I’ll continue to speak out on both matters, and others, if it’s all the same to you — and even if it’s not.
BTW, my friends in the Omaha Tribe of Nebraska just won a significant SCOTUS victory in the struggle to retain as many of the little bits of sovereignty remaining to Natives as possible:
Nebraska Tribe can impose sales tax, Supreme Court says
And the Blackfeet finally got the oil and gas leases on Badger–Two Medicine land canceled.
Sacred Blackfeet Land Spared From Oil And Gas Development
“Shut the fuck up . . .”
Not a chance.
“. . . and look at the blood in the soil below your American feet.”
Yup. Every day.
Fighting Terrorism Since 1492
And Blockade, Divest & Sanction.
Clearly, the best way to resolve the illegal occupation of Palestinian land by the Israeli army is to “just sit back in your imperialist armchairs here in the U.S.” with a self-satisfied, self-serving, narcissistic smirk on your face content in the fact that you don’t give a shit about anyone but yourself – not “the American Indian”(sic), or Palestinians, or any other terrorized people on earth.
The best reason for self-serving twats to do absolutely nothing to help people terrorized and murdered daily is to tell yourself other people did horrifically bad shit in the past, so I don’t have to care about anyone but myself in the present. Then let out a fart, content in your delusional bubble.
A note on names. When I studied matters pertaining to Indians, I did so in Wisconsin where the Ojibwe (Chippewa) were the largest local tribe. They call themselves “Indians.” Other tribes prefer “Native American.” As far as I know, both labels are used.
Your a stupid fuck fart and a twat. As you cannot see that one should deal with their own backyard first. Deal with the atrocities here, yes your living on the bones moron. But you won’t. It’s easier to tell the Jews, who were not too long ago a victim of genoicide, how to act, and you can call the game from your lawn in the suburbs. A lawn that probably has Native American skulls and culture right below it. Stop the imperialistic view point and take care of where you live first.
An Open Letter from Native American and Indigenous Studies Scholars in defense of UCLA Professor David Shorter and other scholars who support the academic and cultural boycott of Israel
April 30, 2012
As Native American and Indigenous Studies scholars who endorse the U.S. Campaign for the Academic and Cultural Boycott of Israel (USACBI), we write in defense of our colleague Professor David Shorter. Shorter has been accused by representatives from the “AMCHA Initiative” of misusing campus resources for “the purpose of promoting the academic and cultural boycott of Israel” to students in his Winter 2012 course, “Tribal Worldviews” at UCLA. In its rhetoric, AMCHA equates criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism, a spurious equation wielded by those who seek to suppress open discussion of Israel and its state policies.
The course focused on examining indigenous peoples’ struggles around the world and the use of global media and arts to politically mobilize communities. The course site included dozens of links to websites, articles, petitions, and videos, as examples of indigenous and activist campaigns. Shorter included a link to the website of the USACBI (a campaign which Shorter himself has endorsed along with hundreds of other faculty members from universities across the country).[1] Additionally, he included United Nations documents that framed the Palestinian struggle as an indigenous struggle.
…
We strongly support Shorter’s academic freedom and support all scholarly efforts that enable critical analysis of every sort, including consideration of the Palestinian people’s resistance to Israeli occupation, settler colonialism, and apartheid.
If Israel and Zionism weren’t carousing in Americas front yard,and giving the finger to Americans daily,your post might have had some validity.
Instead its ant hill excrement.
Btw,that NA skull comment.Never heard of anyone digging their backyard in LI and finding Native American body remnants.Yes,there are some noted graveyards,and some relics of inhabitants about.
Hasbara.
The old you did it,so we can do it too.
Our Israeli MSM interprets that finger as “You’re number one!”and morons believe them.
Greenwald is exiled in Brazil last I heard.
I agree. But most of us were born here, so what are we to do? Yes, we’re living off the genocide and environmental destruction of those who lived here before us, but that doesn’t mean we can just pick up and leave. Being white, I tried to move to Europe 20-25 years ago for many reasons, this issue being one of them, but no country would give me citizenship.
And BTW, I have friends in AIM and the Treaty Council, spent time at Big Mountain in solidarity with the traditionals, etc. So some of us do what we can, but this is an uphill fight that will take a very long time.
That is because the United States has the Second Amendment. Without the right to bear arms, a people must submit to whatever its rulers demand.
Red Dawn is a useful heads up for China and North Korea to make some donations (via third party lobbyists, of course) to support candidates promoting gun control. I’m glad Hollywood is on the job.
Meanwhile in the civilised world we’re content with peacefully overthrowing the government every few years.
It’s called an election.
Elections are good. It’s useful to put some new faces on the old policies from time to time.
Civilization (submitting to whatever the rulers demand) is also good. Unless, for some reason, they have plans which don’t include you.
Honestly, other than running water, heat in winter, and a working bathroom, and a few good books, I’m not sure what else I need from “civilization.”
The latest “Civilization – Beyond earth” from Fireaxis games looks awesome though.
Just because you don’t need much from civilization doesn’t mean civilization doesn’t need much from you.
@Benito Mussolini –
Why, Benito, I could swear you’re channeling JFK!
Channeling Grace,
I’d rather have my country die for me.
@elwood –
HUH? What “Grace” are you referring to???
Second Amendment? As if anyone could fight an army with handguns and hunting rifles.
I know you’re being facetious, but people actually make this ridiculous argument. In reality, the only way to overthrow a government that has a large powerful military is to get enough of that military on your side to be successful, or to at least get them to stand down.
It’s always been the case that the powerful and better-armed make the rules – regardless of right or wrong – and this is no different, unfortunately…
Yes, because juvenile taunts with your antisemitism are what intelligent participants do. [eyes rolling]
Juvenile taunts are no less effective than Israel’s peace efforts …
When you mention “Americans resist military occupation”, what kind of resistance do you refer to? Does it include knifes attacks against civilians? Against Women and children?
Or in other words, can you name the countries in which attacking civilians knifes is not considered as terror act?
There is a lot to criticise in the Israeli policy, but in order to prove your point you chose not to get into the details of those attacks. Not every violent resistance is terrorism but aiming at civilians like that is, does not matter where in the world it takes place.
Dear Mr Greenwald, The only reason Israel is occupying Palestinian territory is because without the occupation, the Palestinian people and their “authority” would unleash hell against Israel and its citizens.
The terror started way before the occupation began and the occupation is only a result of Israel preventing its extermination by all surrounding Arab nations, which by some miracle Israel had achieved.
You also claim that the terrorist are only targeting the military?? Have you not read about who the victims were during the latest stabbings and car rammings?? Regular innocent civilians, no military!
Your article is a joke, and either you are extremely ignorant on the matter or you simply wrote this with the intention of painting Israel in a bad light no matter the circumstances.
Thank god only people that directly search for something in relation to the Israel Palestinian conflict comes across this article and I hope they have the common sense to agree that you’re ignorant as hell.
This article is so mislead and misleading. It fully ignores, that in stark contrast to the South Africa case, the Israeli govt has made repeated offers to the Palestinians for them to establish their own state (think Barak to Arafat in 2000 and Olmert’s to Abbas in 2008); these, by the way, were unexplainably rejected by Palestinian leadership. Further, it ignores that as evidenced by the rhetoric of BDS and the PA, as well as the mission statement of Hamas, these organizations seek, not the end of occupation, but the destruction of the State of Israel (perhaps these explain the rejection of the aforementioned offers). To seek the destruction of the State of Israel is , undeniably, antisemitism- and to use violence in the pursuit of this goal is terrorism.
Palestinian.
The situation of the Palestinians (which by almost any account, is better than the situation of Arabs/Muslims in most Arab/Muslims countries -think Bengalis/Pakistanis in Qatar, Iraqis in Iraq, Egyptians in Egypt etc.) will improve only when their leaders give up the red herring of “occupation” as an excuse to perpetuate regimes of subjugation and corruption, and put forth the goodwill necessary to allow a brighter future.
PS- that there is currently no “significant” efforts to reach a peace deal going on is the deliberate choice of the Palestinians who refuse to sit at the table without preconditions.
Strangest thing is that this piece even needs to be written, or that date above it shows year 2016 !
This choice has always been reality for Palestinians – submit and leave or die – in all these decades nobody ever felt a need to express and explain it this way.
When people look back to colonization of North America, destruction and plight of aboriginal Americans, they will explain that epoch with zeitgeist, like something that was acceptable at the time, but somehow today would be different, people wouldn’t allow such brutal dispossession and extermination. Meanwhile, we are witnessing same brutal colonization, barely influencing its course with our voices, and thats continues for over six decades !
“When people look back to colonization of North America, destruction and plight of aboriginal Americans, they will explain that epoch with zeitgeist, like something that was acceptable at the time, but somehow today would be different, people wouldn’t allow such brutal dispossession and extermination.”
You’re correct: people would and do believe that, but it isn’t true, for the Palestinians or for the Native Americans, who continue to be relegated to their own little Gazas and Bantustans, with the occupiers still encroaching wherever and whenever they can.
Unsure of the NA population in America,but the land set aside for them in total,probably equals Colorado?in area,So I’m sure they are not crowded at all.I know they used to inhabit the whole shebang,but there is still more than enough land per capita for all.
Talking about ethnic cleansing of Americans is a little dumb at this point in history,as that would be the only rectification that would erase the past,and of course you can’t erase that past,as democracy has not yet shown itself as suicide(Israelis aside).
The main issue for NA,seems to be the old divide and conquer,where mob? money,liquor interests and plain old human greed drive much of the NA poverty.
A very complex issue.
Glenn… It seems, and all we as the ‘public’ see is distortion, that we get a ‘sanitized’ version of whatever Netanyaya canmake up each morning. It’s hard keeping Apartied running but the Isralies run it better than any one…. Even Botha …. And they fake pain ad heartache anyone calls their bluff.. The Isralies are bigots and liars… They don’t care about the people – ANY people…. Only a bigger mud hole.
The state, especially a small state like Israel, can entertain neither the tantrums of the violent nor the theatrics of nonviolent. Every state has the paramount task of protecting the people it has chosen to call “citizen.”
With jackals forever circling, Israel cannot allow open divisions within the ranks at home nor for that matter among the nations. The world agrees with Israel on this point, thanks to a veto in the Security Council of the UN.
Israel has no choice but to outlaw every campaign designed to overthrow state policy, whether the opposition is generated by the violent or the nonviolent. Millions of signatures on petitions are as threatening as enemy mobilization, which mobilizations have been tantamount to a declaration of war since at least August 1914. The nonviolent proles and the BDS crowd don’t seem to understand they are as good as terrorists and anti-semites in collaboration with Palestinians who can’t seem to get over the loss of their bulldozed olive orchards, their smashed dwellings and their broken children.
You can’t fool Mr Netanyahu & Co. The dark coin of forbidden resistance has a bright side: nonviolence, whereby honeyed arguments are cobbled together in the cause of truth and justice. In statecraft, truth and justice are deemed subordinate to existence itself. A good offense is better than a good defense. Therefore Israel, instead of adopting a generous defensive stance among the nations, must persist with its unrelenting offensive, always pursued in moderation, of course.
With israel the world is witnessing what happens when a ruling class with the syndrome of paranoia continues to exercise offensive defensiveness. It is a severe mental disorder that has it’s victim making demands that turn normally good people into robotic followers.
GWBush was such a figure whose followers invaded a sovereign country under false pretenses and tortured some folks, getting thousands murdered in the process of committing warcrimes.
Israel has been on that path since NAKBA 1948. Israel went completely off the rails in 1967. So where is israel headed? Their doppleganger got a 14 year head start, that being North Korea.
Sure – in a world where states rights supersede the basic human rights of the citizens that create and maintain the state, and the basic human rights of those this ‘citizen state’ interacts with around the world.
What a moronic position for any human to take.
Sure – in a world where states rights supersede the basic human rights of the citizens that create and maintain the state, and the basic human rights of those this ‘citizen state’ interacts with around the world.
What a moronic position for any human to take.
Sure – in a world where states rights supersede the basic human rights of the citizens that create and maintain the state, and the basic human rights of those this ‘citizen state’ interacts with around the world.
What a moronic position for any human to take.
Sure – in a world where states rights supersede the basic human rights of the citizens that create and maintain the state, and the basic human rights of those this ‘citizen state’ interacts with around the world.
What a moronic position for any human to take.
Sure – in a world where states rights supersede the basic human rights of the citizens that create and maintain the state, and the basic human rights of those this ‘citizen state’ interacts with around the world.
What a moronic position for any human to take.
I was and am of the opinion that Jay-Ottawa was being facetious or satirical. I could, of course, be wrong about that.
I think you may be right, and was going to summarize the same. In any event, I was attacking the message, not the messenger.
Yeah, I’m with Kitt too. But still, Sillyputty’s response was a thing of beauty.
What AIT said.
My guess as well. Another example of Poe’s Law in play.
Many Zionists are so extreme, and immune to truth and facts, that they render satire virtually impossible.
The money power controls the world and has done so for centuries; even Thomas Jefferson, reputed to be the smartest of the FF, despite having great amounts of free labor to work for and to have sex with died in debt to British Bankers. Are the Jews at the top of the money power; who knows? I do know that the Palestinians have a very simple solution to their misery. The solution and likely the only solution is to admit that Israel is far to powerful and amoral to ever defeat and that they should give up all the land and demand Israeli citizenship. Even if they never breed themselves into power they will have infinitely better lives living in a rich less corrupt society. Sometimes you just have to admit you are beat and negotiate the best deal for yourself.
Giving up liberty is a conjob on one’s own self. Giving up is easy, but it is not GOOD in the biblical sense. Those who use and abuse others and offer scraps to end the abuse are evil and curse themselves till the end of time.
It is written that Jesus did not give up. To give up is to pretend that you cannot have your liberty. The colonists of the America could have given up. Had they pretended they could not win, America would not be what it is today. Palestinians are faced with the same fight.
Care about genocide instead of apartment buildings. Boers face genocide in South Africa. Please care.
You could, you know, concentrate on things other than a small pile of dirt at the edge of a polluted Mediterranean Sea. Jew baiting in South Africa began with Archbishop Tutu’s insertion of the Imprecations Prayers into the 1988 South African Anglican Book of Common Prayer. This appears to have had a reprehensible impetus apart from a need to terrorize about 70K Jews there.
President Zuma has sung a song openly calling for the murder of Boers; type “Jacob Zuma sings “Kill the Boer” at ANC Centenery Celebrations in Bloemfontein, South Africa” into YouTube. Jules Melama has done the same; type “Shoot Kill the Boer song Julius Malema Bono U2″.
The latter act resulted in criminal charges, news24 archives: “Malema charged over ‘kill the boer'” 2010-03-10 17:05 Johannesburg – ANC Youth League leader Julius Malema is facing a barrage of complaints to the police and chapter nine institutions over his latest racial outburst, after he led students in singing “kill the boer”. Freedom Front Plus leader and Deputy Agriculture Minister Pieter Mulder laid a criminal charge against Malema at the Brooklyn police station, Pretoria on Wednesday. Mulder said the use of the slogan contravened section 16 of the Constitution. “In terms of this section, no person may advocate hate which is based on the grounds of race, ethnicity, gender or religion and which incites action to cause harm to others. “The FF Plus is convinced that Mr Malema, with this action, advocated and incited hatred which could cause harm to citizens and makes himself guilty of the advocating of hate speech, the FF Plus demands that the Saps investigates the case and take action,” Mulder said in a statement.
Genocide Watch, 14 October 2013
EFF ‘killing’ banner causes outrage News24/Sapa 14 October 2013 Cape Town – Social media buzzed on Monday over a picture of a banner allegedly shown at the Economic Freedom Fighter (EFF) launch in Marikana. A picture showing a red banner with the words “A revolutionary must become a cold killing machine motivated by pure hate” was quickly shared on various social networks on Monday. Another picture shows a banner saying “Honeymoon is over for white people in South Africa”. “I also saw ‘we need to kill them like they killed us’ banners yesterday,” User Qaanitah Hunter said in a Tweet. “I’m not aware of that banner,” EFF’s national spokesperson Mbuyiseni Ndlozi told News24. “It’s not official”. Cameron Modisane, an EFF supporter who posted numerous pictures of the launch on his Twitter profile, also responded to some of the outrage on Twitter. He said the banner was created and paid for by the Katlehong branch members. “This is not to advocate for killing of people but rather equality,” he said. “Our greatest enemy within EFF is white monopoly capital.” Hundreds of people gathered in Marikana, North West for the launch of Julius Malema’s EFF party on Sunday. Malema, once an outspoken supporter of Zuma and a former president of the ANC Youth League, formed the party after being expelled from the ANC. According to its constitution, the EFF is a radical, left-wing, anti-capitalist, and anti-imperialist movement. The party claims it provides clear and cogent alternatives to post-colonial economic systems, which in many countries had kept the oppressed under colonial domination. The party advocates the expropriation of South Africa’s land without compensation, and the nationalisation of mines, banks, and other strategic sectors of the economy.
Apartheid ended in 1994. Boers are human, just as all the rest of us are human. Failing to prevent their murders would be a horrific thing to do.
israel is run by a terrorist cult called ZIONS. They zions were formed some years after Rothschild robbed his german employer (about 1750) of $3,000,000. He then got into the banking business and financing wars.
The zions paid off the congress of the U.S. in 1913 to pass the Fed Reserve Act and have a monopoly on the issuance of currency. The zion method of economics is not a Christian model (Jesus opposed the moneychangers) but is instead a predatory means of capturing assets threw a pledge loan system.
The zions found a home with jewish persons – many of whom denounced their faith and became zions. The zions have largely captured israel and seek to have enough power to do as they please with people whether murder, rob, or silence.
It is the cult of evil.
It’s not just Hollywood in the 1980’s who glorified a fictional US insurgency to foreign invasion but the world of video games is soon to do so to. Homefront The Revolution, a forthcoming Triple A game is set to release on XBOX One and PS4 in May. It imagines a North Korean invasion of the US (in a parallel universe where the North has made numerous technological advances) and the player plays as an insurgent.
In the games own publicity it boasts of waging “Guerrilla Warfare – this is no linear shooter; learn the art of guerrilla warfare and use ambush, infiltration and hit and run tactics against your foe in thrilling un-scripted firefights”. Then there’s this from one of the game’s producers in an interview with Wired: “Because it’s a sandbox game, you can attach the IED to a passing vehicle”.
This is a moving piece, and has a lot of truth to it, but it still oversimplifies in a way. The thing is, when we see compelling evidence of what is wrong with Israeli occupation, it tends to trace back not to Hamas or knife-wielding … freedom fighters. It traces back to groups like B’Tselem who have a serious and sustained commitment to peace, who represent a large fraction of the Israeli people.
Now it is one thing to urge mercy or sympathy for Palestinians driven to extreme measures by extreme circumstances, but it is something else to say “well what else could they do?” without answering it. Clearly they do have ways – like the heroic videocamera operator in the recent article about a summary execution, who now is under threats of death. The urge to say ‘there’s no other way’ to those you want to be sympathetic needs to take a backseat to the need to emphasize ‘there is a better way’ to those who have to decide what to do. Since the days of Black September, many Palestinians have been making really bad decisions about what tactics to use, what response to make, and it is a very cruel kindness not to challenge them to do better.
Are you strategizing or blaming victims of Israeli occupation? The focus should be what Israel does and and on aid for it by the U.S. and western Europe, not what Palestinians do to fight back.
I’m not understanding your point here. People in the US boycott all kinds of things for reasons that range from the heroic (if I remember correctly, boycott lists did a lot to stop animal testing in cosmetics) to the wack-a-doo. (When I worked in a more southern part of the country, people were boycotting Harry Potter books because of witchcraft. Seriously.) The freedom to boycott toothpaste because you are sure The Man is conspiring to control the minds of the sheeple using devious heaps of F-, it is absolutely your right to do that and even to start your own angry blog about it, complete with accusations that the Illuminati is involved. I don’t see why joining a boycott movement that, despite the seriousness of the situation, *kinda makes me giggle because it’s one “M” short of being something else entirely, is any different.
Granted, I do think the Left is quite inconsistent with its application of endorsing a victim mentality. Israel advocates running around impinging on the free speech rights of students and then crying that they are the maligned, victimized party is just obnoxious and narcissistic. I don’t *blame* them for that narcissism, I think it’s similar to the attitude a child who has been through cancer can develop – people had very legitimate reasons to tiptoe around them and cater to them for a long time, but after awhile the child is better but their expectations of ‘average’ treatment is recalibrated. The moment a group is perceived as an underdog, however, the Left tends to be more than happy to encourage this very thinking, which down the road can lead to the same problems. So I can’t really say I think they hold people to account equally.
I absolutely agree that BDS activists should have a right to protest. Whether a BDS-favoring local government official should be able to choose a different bidder because the lowest one happens to have a factory in Israel – that’s another question. Or even a student government that is being paid by mandatory fees from students at a public college. I’m for their right to free speech but there’s a lot of other stuff I’m not going to hand them.
More to the point though, BDS is not the *right* way to engage Israel. Because when Israel has a left wing that wants to make things better, why should we endorse a movement that treats the country as if it were the enemy, when it is certain elements within it? The U.S. with its stupid war in Iraq wasn’t really any better – we and the Israelis need to get together and defeat the Republicans in both our countries, not vilify each other (or at least them … I suppose they know better!) based on nationality.
To your first paragraph – seems like this is a slightly different topic (when it comes to government contracts, at least,) than what this article was about. As far as the ‘right’ way to engage Israel – I mean, honestly, I don’t know, that seems subjective and beside the point (of this article, I mean) to me. This is not written for people who think debate surrounding the settlements should be conducted in an encouraging manner – obviously, anyone who thinks that wouldn’t be involved in such a movement in the first place. I think it’s more saying that the goal posts keep shifting for those who *do think protest is appropriate. Again, I don’t think you have to *agree with the protestors to agree with the principle that peaceful protest should be allowed – as I said before, from the noble to the wack-a-doo. I think that right *in general* is quite important.
Well, there’s a lot of line-crossing alleged – the Zionists do make a compelling accusation at http://zoa.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Letter-to-CUNY-Chancellor-and-Board-of-Trustees-2-22-16.pdf – so it’s important to try to draw that line very carefully and stick to it with the idea that loyalty to principle should outweigh loyalty to any particular party in the dispute. It is clear to me that protesters have the right to say what they think, even if it is something so stupid as yelling “Zionists go home” whenever they see someone wearing a Star of David necklace. However, it is not nearly so clear that this should be regarded as appropriate use of an educational environment, if there are already restrictions on who gets to use an internal campus space and who doesn’t. Now blaming an organization for the actions of a few misguided members – that really isn’t fair, but they do it every time they ban a fraternity for drinking or hazing. In any case, I don’t think we can put a halo on these BDS people and say they have the perfect solution for peace in the Middle East – they are perhaps using their rights to try to bring severe problems to public attention, but others could do better.
I’m not sure what better ways you are referring to, specifically, so can’t comment on that, but I will say that to some degree this dynamic seems to be part of the formula whenever ‘unfriendly’ (as opposed to, I don’t know, Ghandi-esque) protests happen. There have accusations that the Black Lives Matter movement has endangered police, that PETA encouraged violence against people wearing fur coats and working at animal testing sites, and so on. Again, perhaps the gold standard for protest should be the Martin Luther King or Ghandi model, but so long as it’s nonviolent, I don’t know that you can condemn one subset without condemning many other nonviolent protests.
I say piss on the empire’s and its minion’s debatable definition of convenience. I’m going with the root word definition as supplied by a dictionary, Glenn, and from what I’ve read you probably also find it just that direct.
terrorize:
1. To fill or overpower with terror; terrify.
2. To coerce or intimidate by causing fear.
And with that definition in mind, one’s forced to ask how the US and Israel are not somehow at the top of a list for those terrorizing others?
The truth is – Al Qaida, ISIS and even KSA are really just some punk-ass wannabes, largely sponsored in their struggles by the seeds of empire.
Israeli leaders and leaders in the west (and the people who elected all of them) need to call a spade a spade and confess that genocide is the only thing they will accept.
” . . . confess that genocide is the only thing they will accept.”
Well, they might be OK with simple (if complete) ethnic cleansing.
That’s mighty white of them.
The Palestine/Israel conflict and BDS may have supplied the visible target for this repressive, controlling/conditioning and criminalization of resistance/dissent but its widespread adoption seems to show a larger agenda with applications far beyond this one conflict. It seems that any resistance is being characterized as pathological not just criminal because terrorism and even anti-Semitism can be viewed this way.
The University of California decision could be a long simmering reaction to the gains of the Free Speech Movement of the ’60s and all the trouble and embarrassment that caused the PTB.
Another troubling application of this meme seems to be evident in some of the rhetoric used by the Transgender Rights Movement as they are attempting to occupy reserved female-only spaces and are attacking feminists who disagree with their claim of a superior right by branding them as transphobic another pathology, misapplied. The Xtian Right are certainly phobic about these issues and deserve that brand but feminists or any women who demand this legal and necessary separation of the sexes are certainly operating within their rights.
Not all feminists believe that. I don’t.
You believe men should be allowed in women’s restrooms? Into women’s shelters? Into the Daughters of the American Revolution?
Trans women are women in all salient respects, certainly those pertaining to restroom use.
‘legal and necessary separation of the sexes’? There’s the bug! There was a time when people thought it was ‘necessary’ to have separate restrooms for Whites and Coloreds. (Interestingly enough, the sexually uncontrollable Negroes were often expected – and able – to share a restroom without sexual distinctions!)
Having separate Men’s and Women’s rooms looks just as bizarre as having separate Whites and Coloreds. It’s just some people don’t see it yet. In an age when we finally recognize that not everyone is heterosexual, what is the rationale even for segregating locker rooms? You need the same amount of privacy either way!
To be sure, there are some impending downsides. I predict a loss of jobs scrubbing toilets as 2-and-2 get turned into 3. Worse, the line at the movie theater won’t be just for women any more (though common sense dictates that real differences, like having some urinals available, will remain; this will alleviate one problem but not the other!)
(though common sense dictates that real differences, like having some urinals available, will remain; this will alleviate one problem but not the other!)
There is no reason why men cannot pee sitting down. My husband has been doing it ever since it became his job to clean the toilets…and realized how often his aim wasn’t as accurate as he might have wanted to believe.
That sounds very nice for you, but depending on matters of weight and anatomy, it isn’t always 100% foolproof to do it that way. Peeing sitting down is usually cleaner, but if things go wrong they go really wrong, especially if it’s a public restroom and you have to walk out wearing your shame all over your pants. No thanks!
Nay, guys just don’t want to do it that way, and there are reasons.
Shortly after 911 I began telling people that calling someone a terrorist was like calling them an asshole. The term has no meaning except for “someone I don’t like” or “someone acting for a cause to which I’m opposed.” Same with “terrorism.” If you have a problem with someone or some action(s), articulate it. Otherwise, STFU.
The big problem here is that the U.S. and, secondarily, western European propaganda machines are massive, and have gone a long way toward convincing a lot of people that certain acts, such as those aiding the Palestinian cause, are terrorism, while other acts, such as western invasions and occupations of Middle Eastern countries, are freedom fights. As the saying goes, one person’s terrorist is another person’s freedom fighter.
Amazing that this piece even needs to be written.
Submit or die. The only two choices open to Palestinians. Be silent and acquiesce or face “legal” sanction. The only two choices left to many who would support the Palestinians.
The only thing I really do not understand, is why so many erstwhile politicians in countries other than Israel feel the need to actively promote and support this? Truly? What’s in it for ’em?
Submit AND die.
Follow the money. Money is power. Whats in it for them? A job and prestige and the illusion they are doing good.
Built into the zion pledge-loan currency scheme is a requirement for interest payments and pass-the-hot-potato-debt. These 2 factors spell the death of the planet because they ineviteably require the use of all planetary resources and a continual escalation of population whereby one can pass the debts to subsequent generations.
shrinking resources + escalating population = ______________.
The zion currency monopoly and method is a conjob upon the entire planet. A Christian economy would be a blessing and the plan outline is completed. It will need to be installed to replace the zion scheme.
It’s pretty obvious what the settlers want. The Palestinians must cede every inch of their land to the Israelis and live as second class citizens in their own land. Isn’t this what happened to the Indians of North America and how their land was taken away from them. Isn’t this what happened to the pygmies of Australia and New Guinea. Isn’t this what happened to the South Africans until they resisted, although they have a lot of unfinished work to reclaim their land and its resources. This is the system of colonization and subjugation of the indigenous peoples that Europeans have exercised for centuries. US law makers cannot condemn Israel when Israel is charting a similar path. Instead, the US offers financial and military support to Israel to commit genocide against the Palestinians.
What began as a strategy to have a client state in the Middle East (Israel) for the purpose of controlling the oil there has morphed into a religious fanatic movement (aided by illegitimately invoking the Holocaust where it is irrelevant). Zionism existed before 1948, but this psychotic support of Israel uber alles can only be described as religious fanaticism. Why else would so many Christians be so fervently opposed to the Palestinian fight for freedom, dignity, and decent lives?
Most ‘Christians’ trollop in lies and are led blindly in the black and white narrative in their bible. There is a spiritual understanding (albeit hidden) to those black and white words which equal Truth; however, they are never led by their self appointed shepherds nor do they ask for this Truth. They then blindly follow a man’s interpretation, walk out of their churches, and then live a worldly life believing they are saved (but live by their weapons). This is called a “double-minded” heart and their Jesus is against that, against worldly ways, and against bloodshed, greed, lust, and all of the things he lists. This double-minded heart is called “lukewarm”, and another term used is ‘sitting on the fence’ (meaning one foot in the church ‘lip service’ and one foot in the world). I liken this fence to the WALLS that are built in many places, but Palestine is the main focus (Jerusalem). This INJUSTICE is the reality of the criminal atrocities of the Palestinians because these ‘Christians’ are bamboozled into swallowing the land of Israel LIE. So they contribute to it by their support to their churches, charities, and ultimately to their worldly government (votes) and (taxes). The narrative that they have been brainwashed with (because they do not seek the Truth) is the ‘protection of Jews’!!! This is an abomination. They have thrown Truth down into the street and worship their Golden Calf, worship the Jews (man) and ultimately have falsely believed in their salvation. Yes…I know I will receive hate comments for this…so be it. In short…it is written in their bible how to find Truth, the Way, and the Light…and they have not as their ACTS dictate. Many here who don’t believe in God…I simply understand and don’t condemn…because it is a hard thing to swallow the black and white words of their bible. But when understanding it by the Spirit of Truth…it has no relevance on others…only the person understanding it. Truth without the Spirit = “religious fanaticism” = death. The Jews don’t believe the Messiah has already come so their fervent (on the fence…dual citizen) support for the Israel abomination is what exists. They also have corrupted the Truth (Torah) and have opted for a man-made narrative (Talmud) which is evil and their ACTS show it. The number for man is 6, the number for their ACTS is 6, and the number for their unenlightened soul is 6. Please disregard if disagreed with…thanks.
BDS …. ’til the WALL COMES CRASHING DOWN.
@sparrow –
“Please disregard if disagreed with…thanks.”
But no can do here, sorry. I am Christian and object that you’re characterizing even “most” Christians so severely. Yes, there are some that are VERY closed minded. But not all of us. I’m sure that there are (I don’t know exactly what quantity) Christians who feel for the Palestinians and actually support BDS.
There are also some Christians who are open minded in other ways, toward LGBT folks and women’s rights…
Please don’t tarnish us all with the same brush.
Generalizations are meant to be generally true, and this one is true almost universally. It is irrelevant whether there are small exceptions as you imply that you are. The fact is that Christianity has done more harm to the Earth and indigenous people and their cultures than all other religions put together.
@Jeff –
…”this one is true almost universally” I’m just a small exception. I would disagree with that. Yes, there ARE many (yeah, too many) Christians who are indeed very closed minded. But there are still quite a number of us who are not. We may not get the attention, but we are there.
I don’t claim that Christianity has been perfect. I’m sorry to say it has not. Christians as you’ve said, treated indigenous peoples terribly, have justified slavery other stuff. But to say we’ve done more harm to the Earth and all than anyone? Not sure about that. And there have been many people over the centuries whose CHRSTIAN beliefs led them to oppose human beings being treated poorly.
Yes, some don’t live the principles taught by Jesus. But let’s NOT condemn the whole bunch of us for that!
If you are living according to what and whom you have made an oath to…then this should not offend you. Even greater you should be in agreement from the discernment (opened eyes) of Truth by the Spirit of God of the reality of Christendom. That is why I stated to “please disregard if disagreed with…thanks.” Also, if Truth has changed you into a human being equal to others and helpful to others…there need not be a tribal nor defined Title that lifts you or separates you from another. i.e Christian, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist…etc. Those titles, dress, and purposely identifying symbols divide the heart and then call it “chosen”, stay within their walls and with their own, then proselytize others. All religions are guilty of it while they all fall short of Grace. Otherwise we would be living in Peace.
Correction…
“…stay within their walls and with their own, then proselytize others (or worse oppress others).
The labels start out with inner meanings, which are lost over time.
All religions are radii on the same circle and meet at the center of inner reality and essence. A person near or at the center transcends outer forms.
My heart has become capable of every form:
It is a pasture for gazelles,
And a monastery for Christian monks,
And a temple for idols,
And the pilgrim to Ka`bah,
And the tablets of the Torah,
And the Book of the Qur’an.
I follow the religion of Love:
Whatever way Love’s camel takes,
That is my religion and my faith.
— ibn Arabi
I found God because I hated the hypocrisy of religion. It’s racism. It’s force fed manipulations. It’s witchcraft. I am a witness to them. In essence…in this difficult walk and utterly devastating experience of deliverance(s) of my dark and unenlightened soul…many times wanting to flee away from His Presence…I have been blessed with His Understanding but with it comes constant vexation of the evil in this world. It never goes away. And it especially enlarges when violence is happening to an imprisoned people who can not escape. I have rescued many animals all my life from the same abuse. And God has provided for them. In my human anger I come against the God of Heaven and Earth to stop this horrible vexation. And I have to accept that His Grace is enough. I come here to vent and I am grateful for the fellowship of like minded people who are also feeling the same way…and likewise I apologize for not expressing myself better. (I’m not an educated speaker.) Thank you Sufi for your kindness. And to Mona for sharpening my iron. May we all see Freedom in our lifetime. Peace Salam Shalom
@sparrow-
If you say all religions are guilty, then why pick on Christianity. And again, why tar all of us the same? Unfortunately, there are some in almost any group who are closed-minded or what not. THAT DOES NOT MEAN ALL ARE. And THAT characterization is what I object to.
Hi,
I pick on Christianity because I was one and I am a witness to it. I objected to their ‘man’ interpretation of the Holy Word. I objected to their actions i.e. proselytizing with agendas. Their ‘tithing’ manipulations. Their blatant faux million dollar church businesses that operate tax exempt. I could go on and on…but the truth is, there are very few true Christian shepherds who lead their flock by Truth and Spirit. They are deeply rooted into mass sheep manipulation to “vote” for certain right wing government officials (which by the way is against Jesus’ teachings). Most have lost their way and simply do not demonstrate the true power of God. That is a Mocking Spirit that works on its own authority. A business. A con. A deplorable charade that votes for weapons and murder.
Jer 5:31
31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests rule on their {own} authority; and My people love it so! But what will you do at the end of it?
(NAU)
They have corrupted the Truth and it is prevalent by the actions and deplorable condition of the world around them. The Jews have done the same thing with the Talmud. And I can’t speak for Islam because I do not know their Prophet. We all are responsible to understand and act on the premise of being ‘our brothers keeper’ by understanding the Truth by the Spirit of God. And again…if you are walking uprightly and your actions are witness to that…then you should not have an objection to this truth…
Question to you…”Where are the 11 tribes of Israel”? “Where are the True 12 tribes of Israel”? “Who and what is Israel”? “Are not Ishmael and Yitschaq (Isaac) brothers?” (And who and what do they represent?)
@sparrow –
I see what you’re really objecting to is—– a lot of the “evangelical stuff” and how so much of that is tied to right wing ideology. Well, I’m very much a feminist, very much a liberal, so that mentality doesn’t sit well with me either. And yes, I have some familiarity with it. I had one person I knew in grad school actually tell me we Episcopalians were NOT Christians! Get REAL!
But don’t think of Christianity as a monolith. Haven’t we been told NOT to think of Islam that way? Unfortunately that sort of closed minded ideology has been gaining in at least U. S. Christianity recently. But again not all of us, especially those in more mainstream denominations, don’t subscribe to it.
I mentioned I’m Episcopalian. Yup, it’s been said we thought of ourselves as the “frozen chosen.” But this is really changing, though not without problems. We have female Priests (I remember all the controversy when THAT happened!) and Bishops now. We’ve had a female U. S. Presiding Bishop. Our relatively new and current Presiding Bishop is African-American, our first! The Church of England now also allows female Priest and Bishops. But there are still Anglicans who are not onboard, and this has led to much strain and the Anglican Communion recently disciplined our U.S. Episcopal Church over its stand on LGBT rights. So there is progress, there is pushback and we just have to keep trying to move forward.
When it comes to Christianity, my thought is that we must REMEMBER and TRY (best we can) to follow what Jesus taught.
So my Bible verses to you would be: Mark 12:30 -31. THAT’s what it’s all about. And incidentally, verse 31, commonly thought of as the “Golden Rule” pops up in the teachings of MANY religions worldwide. But I will admit that it seems that some of us humans are just not paying attention to it. SIGH.
yep.
Islamic related violence towards Jews in Israel predates settlements and occupation by decades. While settlements may be illegal, the occupation itself is not, it’s only in place precisely because of the barbaric and genocidal behavior of the Arabs which is perfectly encapsulated by these stabbing attacks.
Palestinians have as much right to attack the Israeli occupiers as German civilians had a right to attack the Allies occupying a defeated Nazi Germany. Arabs, like the Germans, were the original aggressors in this conflict. They are the ones who launched a genocidal war of aggression in 1948 and lost. They have NO right to argue the consequences of their illegitimate and violent actions.
They have only one option – immediately lay down their arms, accept defeat, and accept the right of a Jewish state to exist on a fractional sliver of land the Arabs only themselves acquired by illegitimate invasion and occupation.
If not, they will continue to do nothing but perpetuate the misery and suffering of their people and doom their children to no future.
Beginning “History” at 1948 is what I call cropping the frame to suit the argument. Some might think it intellectually lazy; I tend to call it fraud.
Completely agree. In fact, Arabs started attacking innocent Jews decades before they declared independence, when Zionists first started immigrating en masse.
“Zionists immigrating en masses” makes them the “original aggressors”… who then proceeded to use violence to lay claim to land that was not their own in further aggression.
Resistance to the original aggressors does not make Palestinians the original aggressors.
Immigration against the will of the existing occupants is not a right in any country.
There would not have been such a problem, except the Zionist immigrants began touting an explicit goal of violent overtake of the land. Moreover, as Zionists began to aggressively purchase real estate from absentee Arab landlords, they systematically began refusing to permit Arabs to work the farms and to refuse Arabs employment in other businesses.
Hiring was: Jew only.
To say this was a recipe for non-acrimonious co-existence is to understate. And the fault most definitely does not lie with the Arabs.
Decatur,
Any thoughts on what Rabbi Michael Lerner and Uri Avnery say on this issue?
I second TallyHoGazehound.
Not so much. Muslims and Jews lived peacefully together for hundreds of years in that area, which is one of the reasons Jews living there resisted the Zionist project in the first place. There was crime, yes, but generally the religions of the perpetrators and victims wasn’t systematic, as it is now. (You could always read a book if your imagination ever wanes.)
Oh. I thought you were going to say “Nazis” but then I remembered you’re just making this up.
This one’s actually pretty close to true, we just need to amend a few proper nouns: “Palestinians have as much right to attack the Israeli occupiers as [FRENCH] civilians had a right to attack the [AXIS] occupying a defeated [FRANCE]. [ZIONISTS], like the Germans, were the original aggressors in this conflict.”
Of course, the Nazis would have called such resistance a “genocidal war of aggression” or some even more effective nonsense Goebbels could have crafted.
If the Palestinians do not grab their ankles with a smile on their faces,
Ah. Nothing like saying your side loves the other side’s children more than they do to make sure they look genocidal and you don’t. (/s) Saying Palestinians don’t love their children (use them as “humans shields” etc.) is the (propaganda) textbook way to foment genocide.
You are a disgusting person, Decatur204, and justice demands that you lose your battle rhetorically and physically. I’m raising my glass to the inevitability of your eventual defeat. May you rot in the hell of your own making.
False. Jews (and all non-Muslims) were forced to live under the violence and humiliation of Shariah law, which is far more oppressive than any perceived injustice Arabs think they are suffering in Palestine. This treatment may been more tolerant than how Jews fared under Christendom, but that doesn’t mean it would be an acceptable level of oppression today. And it’s exactly this arrangement that Palestinians and their apologists are promoting.
Arabs/Muslims don’t actually have any problems with the subjugation of other cultures or peoples, as long as they are the ones doing it.
You have it backwards. Besides the fact Palestinians literally allied with Hitler’s Nazis and the Palestinian mufti was instrumental in raising Nazi SS divisions, the Arabs were among the losing parties in a war of aggression their side started.
Of course I’m not referring to WW2 but WW1 where the actual owners of Palestine – the Ottoman empire – lost a war of aggression they were in with Germany and had to give up their claim to Palestine as a result. Territorial concessions through warfare – how civilization has been constructed for millennia. Including and especially virtually every majority Muslim nation in existence.
Arabs didn’t give a shit about Palestine until the Zionists started to. The population in this region was actually declining before large scale Jewish immigration and the VAST majority of the land was arid wasteland.
I assure you the feeling is mutual. You are on the side of groups like ISIS, Boko Haram, Al-Shabaab, and literally hundreds of other Islamist/jihadist groups the world over who are actively pursuing a campaign of industrial mass murder and ethnic cleansing in the name of their perverse Quran that makes anything Israel has done in its entire existence look like fucking recess by comparison.
Funny how Islamists and their apologists have been predicting Israel’s downfall and destruction for decades now. Instead, they get their pathetic assess deservedly kicked repeatedly. Keep trying though, Israel will keeping sending you savages to meet your pedophile prophet in hell.
People have your number well enough at this point that I’m going to ignore huge swathes of your hasbara idiocy. But let’s look at this bit:
Many Arabs fought with the British against the Nazis. The Mufti got no traction for his views in Palestine and ended up in exile, ultimately in Germany.
What the…? I think sympathy for kids living in Gaza and being an Islamist “apologist” are a bit different. Then again, I’m not batshit insane. Get a tissue — there’s blood dripping from your lip.
http://just-another-inside-job.blogspot.fr/2007/04/150-000-jews-in-hitlers-army.html
The fact that there were thousands of Jews in Hitler’s army is a well-documented fact that Zionists ignore. And they were in all branches, including the SS. Yet, the only possible nazi sympathizer amongst the Arabs that they can find is the much-maligner mufti of Jerusalem.
Another example of selective memory recall and the Zionist theory of history.
Zions are a horde of common dimwitted unimaginative plagiarists. They took MEIN KAMPF and substituted “jew” with “palestinian”.
Zionist “history” is so cute.
BDS is working and is going to continue to. Israel is increasingly becoming an isolated pariah-state and also to feel the economic impact. Apartheid South Africa found being the West’s bastard child very unpleasant. Israelis are either going to commit some justice toward the Palestinians, or become completely hated.
In another decade or so — as the 65-yr-old+ voters pass and newer voters join the millennials — the U.S. electorate will be very significantly opposed to our country’s absurd financial and diplomatic cover for Israel’s crimes. Europe is already far advanced in its pro-Palestinian commitment.
It’s just a matter of time.
“It’s just a matter of time”
We all know what that means. The Middle East’s last viable minority will be forced to submit to a system of Islamic governance. Some Jews will be killed, others will be enslaved and all will have to pay a special tax. A 58th Muslim-majority country will be created and any semblance of remaining diversity in the Middle East will be erased. Equilibrium will be restored to the universe and all the “Human Rights” activists will congratulate themselves on a job well done as another Middle Eastern country descends into civil war, genocide and anarchy.
Well, some of us do. A huge target will be of my country’s back once we stop slavishly defending Israel’s obscene treatment of the Palestinians. Then, we also have to stop removing democratically elected Muslim-nation leaders, supporting their tyrants, and otherwise meddling in the affairs of the Middle East.
The 1.6 billion Muslims of the world may think well of the U.S. once we start treating them respectfully. I hope so.
Deluded paranoid persons, having gone off the rails of goodness fairness and self reflections, do place their reality in some fantasy and religious writings as life savers they hang onto. This dependency also has the consequence of such afflicted persons – mind be gone – to follow unrealistic instructions on how to respond to said instructinal fantasies.
These same afflicted persons “give up” (as they would ask others to do) and surrender their will in exchange for the fantasies and all that go with it without realizing that God who gave us FREE WILL did not mean for us to actually surrender our will. This is the mistake that many religions make. The surrender of will is but a confession that their life is useless, over, unworthy, etc. The rationale is to be able to merge with the other members of the “give up and surrender your will” club so one can feel a sense of belonging and SAMENESS. SAMENESS so profound and discreet and precise that persons who object or defy the fantasies must be the enemy. Essentially such religions are a manufacturer plant of insanity.
Jesus was not a christian. He was a protester whose will was that which God wanted for all humans; the will to heal the sick, the will to help the needy, the will to feed the hungry. and the will to live. The only ruleset prescribed by Him was the 10 commandments – which includes Thou shalt not steal.
The theft of land is precipitation of murder. All humans need their land, their food, their life support. Israel is engaged in stealing the land of millions. That is called precipitation of genocide.
I sure hope so.
The only barrier Israel has in finally dropping down and operating close the same level and with the same behavior as their Islamist enemy is U.S. support. Once they don’t have to worry about pleasing the U.S. they can finally take drastic measures to end the conflict once and for all.
Yes. Many Israelis hold your genocidal views. But it would be suicide for Israel to do as you wish. If they were to use their nukes, they wouldn’t be the only ones who do. (And I do not allude to Iran.)
Knowing that, the world will do anything necessary to bring Israel to heel.
You live in a Zionist fantasy bubble. You almost never document your unhinged assertions, but then, there are few credible sources for you to cite.
These sociopaths are a cult who basically worship and look forward armageddon to the extent that they have come to believe it is already happening and it needs to be amped up for a final victory. Real human being reality has no place in their minds and they are willing to involve the entire planet in their delusion even if it means nuclear war – because for them death is some sort of victory and the rest of us are collateral damage.
Normally, these people are just nuts. But given the power of office and military, “just nuts” takes on a whole new meaning.
‘exist on a fractional sliver of land the Arabs only themselves acquired by illegitimate invasion and occupation.’ Excuse me, whereas the Israeli way of achieving land was Legitimate? How many times do you have to invalidate the Palestinians existence to prove what is done in Israel is legit? You can’t. You pick and chose pieces of History to prove Israel has a right to do wrong. That may have happened but think of the other periods of history where life was peaceful there amongst Arabs & Jews. I know ,doesn’t help your Grab All l the Land for Ourselves idea.
With some slight differences:
– The Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories is widely considered illegal.
– The occupation has lasted 50 years.
Good article. There is an added twist here in the UK. The Israeli campaign to equate anti-zionism with antisemitism (having already defined anything critical of Israel as anti-zionism) intersects with the conservative and media campaign to undermine Jeremy Corbyn by portraying him as closet antisemite for failing to clamp down on largely invented incidents of antisemitism within the Labour Party.
Good Corbyn supporters are being vilified in the press as antisemites (even the Jewish ones) and demands are made for Corbyn to condemn them and expel them from the party.
From what I read one or two people may be motivated by antisemitism, although I want more evidence that is provided by a biased press, and if so should be expelled and excluded from the BDS and Palestinian Rights movement movements that have a better history of challenging antisemitism when they encounter it than most. However most of the accusations are evidence free and issued by people and organisations with a consistent history of false accusations of antisemitism made both to defend Israel and to weaken the left in Britain.
It is of course notable that those most adept at finding antisemites under the bed are blind when it comes to rampant Islamophobia when they are not inciting it themselves.
http://azvsas.blogspot.fr
Tony Greenstein is one Palestinian activist who has been dropped by Labor. The Zionists have so many organizations that monitor society, aka Campus Watch, UN Watch, etc. Now there seems to be Labor Watch also. Labor has definetly overreacted
Many Zionists purport to find one of BDS’s founding three goals unacceptable:
That last one is used as an excuse by many — but not all — Zionists to oppose BDS. Permitting Palestinian refugees and their descendants to return to their cities, villages and homes would violate Israel’s ethno-religious supremacism. Israel demands that Jews always be a super-majority of Israelis and will do anything to maintain that. Hence, the apartheid.
Some Zionist Jews, however, nevertheless argue that BDS should be supported even if they will not work toward that third goal. J Street, for example, endorses BDS because, they reason, there must be a legitimate way to oppose Israel’s many bad acts.
I’m confused by your last paragraph. Do you mean non-Zionist Jews? (or just non-Zionists?) Or are you actually saying there are Zionists that support BDS?
Yup. Here’s just one example.
What Palestinians can do is make peace and choose that developing themselves sociopolitucally is more important than stripping Jews — the only ethnic minority in the Middle East and North Africa with collective land rights — of power. The Arabs of Palestine were offered a homeland in 1936, 1948, 1967, 2000, and 2008 and each time had those offers rejected by their leaders in partnership with the Middle Eastern establishment because the thought of a minority having sovereignty over its ancestral land was too hideous to accept.
So no, Palestinians don’t get to keep saying no to peace deals, no to allowing Jews to live in terrritories where Arabs formed a majority under foreign imperialist rule, and no to prioritizing their own development over stripping Jews of power only to reserve the so-called right to keep targeting Jews with violence.
The two minute video about gaza is apparently unavailable in the US. Interesting.
http://imgur.com/Po2bE62
Glenn wrote “All forms of resistance to Israeli occupation are deemed illegitimate.”
Well the elite that have taken over our Republic and the media also went to school on what did not work for them as it related to blow back from the likes of Vietnam and South African Apartheid protest movements that did end such amoral conflicts.
They are apparently pulling out everything they can via their purchased media and worldwide political control to make sure they are not hampered in their brutal domination.
However the spirit of the masses, even if only viscerally, know that George Washington and his men were considered the terrorists of their day, which might be the key to the inspiration needed to ultimately defeat what seems to be an overwhelming force of these times.
Equating BDS as anti-semitism is illogical and therefore merely a strategy to combat BDS. It would be most interesting to explore how pressure was brought to bear to accomplish such extreme actions as in the case of the UC Regents Resolution.
“It would be most interesting to explore how pressure was brought to bear to accomplish such extreme actions as in the case of the UC Regents Resolution.”
In the case of the UC Regents, one of the ways pressure was brought to bear was by direct threat:
I’m waiting for the first legal challenges to these ‘laws’. I can’t imagine them standing up in court.
What’s allowed? Considering the mounting examples, including what’s evidenced here, I’d suggest the person who could best answer is already rolling in his grave: Orwell.
Someone should pose this question (what is a legitimate means for Palestinians to resist) to high ranking Israeli and U.S. politicians. If nothing else, it highlights how absurd the position is.
Thank you for the starkly revealing article
Mr Greenwald, the only reason there is an occupation is because if there weren’t, palestinians and their “authority” would unleash hell on Israel and its civilianz. They have tried to exterminate and declare war on Israel since its inception as they simply do not want a western democratic state in that region. The occupation is the result of palestinian terrorism against israel, and not vice versa like you claim. Israel did not simply start occupying palestinian terriroty for no reason and this terrorism is simply a “resistance” against it. Also, you claim that Palestinians are targeting only military targets and no civilians. Are you kidding?? Have you checked or read anything about the knife attacks and car rammins recentlt and who the victims are?? You’re article is a misleading joke and you are clearly extremely ignorant on the matter or you simply have the intention of painting israel in a bad light.
Mr Greenwald, The only reason there is an Israeli occupation, is because if there weren’t Palestinians would unleash Hell on Israeli civilianz. The occupations is the result of oalestinian
The overwhelming political and media power of Zion in America has made US citizens into impotent cogs in an ultra fascist machine of Israel uber alles.
Donald Trump is totally demonized for promoting America sovereignty,meanwhile,as they fear an independent America that would force Israel to act in its best interests,instead of the interests of their crazy id.
Stay tuned.
No.
Trump horrifies decent people for his jingositic, racist and xenophobic nonsense.
Many Zionist Jews LOVE Donald Trump. For example, the execrable Shmuley Boteach writing in The Jerusalem Post:
Then there were all the happy AIPAC fellas at their recent convention sporting red yarmulkes, in lieu of baseball caps, bearing the Trump slogan.
Hordes of antisemtites, like you, love Donald’s general bigotry and think it’s going to cause him — for bigoted reasons — to take a hardline with Israel. It won’t, and he won’t.
The only candidate who didn’t go to AIPAC to kiss their ass was Bernie Sanders.
Donald Trump is totally demonized for promoting America sovereignty..
Good to know we are not alone in seeing that. That also goes for the media ducking of Bernie Sanders.
America has lost her sovereignty because she has invaded and corrupted foreign sovereignties. She can’t have it both ways. For her to have sovereignty she MUST respect and not occupy her neighbors near or far, nor have a bloodlust for their rightful resources. She needs to make a sovereign apology to all for all of her wrongs since her beginning starting with her native population and the treachery she dealt out to them…her greed for slave workers and their oppression…her endless desire for warfare and domination…and I’m sure you would agree to the endless list up to this day. She’s headed for a big fall and all the kings horses nor men will be able to put her back together again.