FOR YEARS, THE Supreme Court’s 5-4 decision in Citizens United was depicted by Democrats as the root of all political evil. But now, the core argument embraced by the Court’s conservatives to justify their ruling has taken center stage in the Democratic primary between Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders — because Clinton supporters, to defend the huge amount of corporate cash on which their candidate is relying, frequently invoke that very same reasoning.
The crux of the Citizens United ruling was that a legal ban on independent corporate campaign expenditures constituted a limit on political speech without sufficient justification, and thus violated the First Amendment’s free speech guarantee. A primary argument of the Obama Justice Department and Democrats generally in order to uphold that campaign finance law was that corporate expenditures are so corrupting of the political process that limits are justified even if they infringe free speech. In rejecting that view, this was the key argument of Justice Anthony Kennedy, writing for the five-judge conservative majority (emphasis added):
For the reasons explained above, we now conclude that independent expenditures, including those made by corporations, do not give rise to corruption or the appearance of corruption.
Does that sound familiar? It should. That key argument of the right-wing justices in Citizens United has now become the key argument of the Clinton campaign and its media supporters to justify her personal and political receipt of millions upon millions of dollars in corporate money: “Expenditures, including those made by corporations, do not give rise to corruption or the appearance of corruption” — at least when the candidate in question is Hillary Clinton.
Indeed, the Clinton argument actually goes well beyond the Court’s conservatives: In Citizens United, the right-wing justices merely denied the corrupting effect of independent expenditures (i.e., ones not coordinated with the campaign). But Clinton supporters in 2016 are denying the corrupting effect of direct campaign donations by large banks and corporations and, even worse, huge speaking fees paid to an individual politician shortly before and after that person holds massive political power.
Another critical aspect of the right-wing majority argument in Citizens United was that actual corruption requires proof of a “quid pro quo” arrangement: meaning that the politician is paid to vote a certain way (which is, basically, bribery). Prior precedent, said the Citizens United majority, “was limited to quid pro quo corruption,” quoting a prior case as holding that “the hallmark of corruption is the financial quid pro quo: dollars for political favors.”
Does that sound familiar? It should. That, too, has become a core Clinton-supporting argument: Look, if you can’t prove that Hillary changed her vote in exchange for Goldman Sachs speaking fees or JPMorgan Chase donations (and just by the way, Elizabeth Warren believes she can prove that), then you can’t prove that these donations are corrupting. After all, argue Clinton supporters (echoing the Citizens United majority), “the hallmark of corruption is the financial quid pro quo: dollars for political favors.”
Conversely, the once-beloved Citizens United dissent from the Court’s liberals, written by Justice Stevens, was emphatic in its key claim: that there are many other forms of corruption brought about by corporate campaign expenditures beyond such quid pro quo — i.e., bribery — transactions. Their argument was that large amounts of corporate cash are almost inevitably corrupting, and certainly undermine trust in the political system, because of the many different ways (well beyond overt quid pro quos) that corporations convert their expenditures into undue influence and access:
That core argument from the liberal Citizens United dissenters has been the central critique the Sanders campaign and its supporters have used to denounce Clinton’s massive corporate-based campaign (and personal) wealth. Incredibly, to defend their candidate against this critique, Clinton supporters have waged war on the crux of the liberal critique of Citizens United.
Oh no, Clinton supporters insist, the mere fact that a candidate is receiving millions upon millions of dollars — both politically and personally — from Wall Street banks, hedge funds, and large corporations is not remotely suggestive of corruption, and we’re actually offended at the suggestion that it is. They are explicitly channeling Antonin Scalia and Mitch McConnell in defending the integrity of politicians who accept massive corporate money. As campaign finance reformer Zephyr Teachout wrote about a 1999 Supreme Court opinion authored by Scalia that “set the table for Citizens United“: “The Court suggests that using money to influence power through gifts is both inevitable and not troubling” — i.e., the 2016 argument of Clinton supporters.
What’s most amazing about all of this is that Clinton defenders are going even further in defending the integrity of corporate cash expenditures than many defenders of Citizens United did. There were many reluctant defenders of that decision on free speech grounds — such as the ACLU, Eliot Spitzer, various unions, and myself — who argued that the solution to domination of corporate donations was not to vest the government with the power to restrict political speech (the case began when an advocacy group was barred from distributing an anti-Hillary film) but, instead, to institute a system of robust public financing to even the playing field, to disempower corporations by rendering their expenditures unnecessary. But those of us who defended the decision on free speech grounds nonetheless accepted, and indeed vehemently argued, that corporate expenditures are corrupting in the extreme. As I wrote after that decision, “Corporate influence over our political process is easily one of the top sicknesses afflicting our political culture.”
Incredibly, Clinton supporters, to defend their candidate, have resorted to denying what was once a core orthodoxy of Democratic politics: that big corporate donations (let alone being personally enriched by huge Wall Street speaking fees in between stints in public office) are corrupting. In doing so, these Democrats — just as they did when they instantly transformed from opponents to supporters of Guantánamo, drones, and spying once Obama stopped denouncing those things and started doing them — have spent the 2016 campaign vehemently renouncing the crux of the argument in favor of campaign finance reform. About this incredibly cynical and destructive ploy, Adam Johnson wrote yesterday:
Precisely. To make a similar point yesterday, I posted this Twitter poll:
If you’re a Clinton supporter, how do you answer that question? What had been the only possible answer — of course it’s not ideal that Clinton relies on huge amounts of corporate cash, but she has no choice if she wants to raise the amounts needed to be competitive — has been decisively disproven by the Sanders campaign. And, either way, none of that justifies jettisoning what has, for many years, been at the heart of the liberal critique of the political system: that massive corporate donations corrupt. But as establishment Democrats have repeatedly proven, there is literally no principle, no belief, immune from being dispensed with the minute they think doing so helps empower their leaders.
Top photo: Performance artist Marni Halasa protests outside a Hillary Clinton fundraiser for $2,700 a plate at The Dakota on March 30, 2016. Activist groups rallied at the event to shine light on the corrosive nature of money in politics.
Not that Peggy Noonan is a beacon of intellectual honesty in any way, but here she is making what used to be the old Democrat argument that taking money has a corrupting effect even if there is no quid pro quo in the form of “memo that says, ‘To all staff: If we deal this week with any issues regarding Country A, I want you to know country A just gave my husband $750,000 for a speech, so give them what they want.’ ”
We live in an interesting time….
The whole article: http://www.wsj.com/articles/how-the-clintons-get-away-with-it-1431035304
Remarkable twitter responses from the pro-Clinton camp, by the way.
I find the Elizabeth Warren video fascinating – and I will tell you why. I read Fighting Chance last year. The bankruptcy chapter was very compelling. Late last year I wrote the Sanders’ campaign and suggested that he use the bill against Sec’y Clinton (among other ideas along the same vein). The response was less than enthusiastic and I later wondered if I had misunderstood or incorrectly recalled Sec’y Clinton’s role. I searched online fairly thoroughly for coverage on the bankruptcy bill at or since that time. There were conflicting stories and results, including one which said that the day of the vote, Bill Clinton was in the hospital having a procedure (stent?) and Senator Clinton didn’t vote. I didn’t check votes, just coverage. It seems to me, and I am not conspiratorial, although I do not fully grasp the power and reach of the Clinton Machine, that somebody might have scrubbed or watered down some history. Until Sen Sanders mentioned the bankruptcy bill in the last debate (Brooklyn), I hadn’t heard anybody discuss the issue. Granted, the on-air pundits are not offering much pro-Sanders coverage and points, but I have been beating the same drum for years. As one non-public voice, I harped for months on the fact that there is so much history on which go after Hillary Clinton, I wished they focused on the consequential actions that had real results instead of the emails and Benghazi.
Where are the Wall Street Papers?
Private campaign conributions should be completely prohibited, period. People take free speech too far, there are more important issues like getting the money out of politics. Glenn’s solution (just create public financing that would make private financing unnecessary) would not work, because the corporations and super rich would just donate ever more money, and their donations would dwarf those of the public funding.
Get rid of private campaign financing completely and replace it with public financing. This is supposed to be one-person-one-vote, not one-dollar-one-vote. This Buckley v. Valeo BS that money is speech is one of the greatest frauds ever perpetrated and it should be thoroughly debunked.
So many of us in New York who support Bernie are “Independents” who have long resisted aligning ourselves with the entrenched “Duopoly ” parties. It has long been the case that these two corporately controlled, hence politically legitimized country-clubs of privilege ARE the fossilized “establishment” of self-interest – holding onto their reins of power with a death-grip.
In Tuesday’s New York primary, those of us not allied to the Duopoly who wish to register support for the one importantly viable crusading opponent to the paralyzed and manifestly corrupt status quo are NOT ALLOWED to be heard/counted and hence are deprived of legitimacy at a crucial, perhaps pivotal moment in the electoral process. This is the situation in place within the largest concentration of the most diverse population in the country – arguably with more readily available access to independent and less manipulated corporate media information.
Whatever the results of NY primary tallies – these will be trumpeted far and wide and given credence and resulting political weight by the mainstream media.
Alas, the above-mentioned dramatically reinforces the agonizingly frustrating inability to consider oneself effectual within the apparatus of our hopelessly rigged electoral system.
Can we assume that HRC would never nominate a SCOTUS justice who would disdain Citizens United? Wasn’t the opposite supposedly a strong reason for voting for her? I guess she figures it is in the bag. No reason to pretend to be a progressive anymore.
The irony is…That, “….. But Clinton supporters in 2016 are denying the corrupting effect of direct campaign donations by large banks and corporations and, even worse, huge speaking fees paid to an individual politician shortly before and after that person holds massive political power….” Let’s just say it’s a “down payment”….
@ggreenwald, I’m interested in your take on Clinton’s defense that Obama raised money the same way… Some of us believe that the very access he subsequently granted likely influenced his more hawkish decisions, but it seems the Sanders campaign is unwilling to criticize Obama on this, even with the Southern primaries over. I’ve noticed it’s the one defense Clinton uses to which Sanders refuses to reply. Forgive me if you’ve already pointed it out. Just wondering if I’m missing any calculus on this.
I’ve often thought that the fact that no bankers have been held responsible for the 2008 crash is in large part because of these very contributions to Obama.
Now is more important and possibly the last time possible to elect a candidate like Bernie. Shortly both parties will restrict further the ability of a citizen funded candidate to have a voice. Call, anyone you know in New York ask them to vote Bernie, ask for phone numbers to call their friends and ask their friends to call. If we do that, Bernie will win the very important New York election. The time is NOW.
This is also the same justification SEIU is conducting to be able to endorse Clinton, who never supported Fight For 15 before the fight offered her a good photo op. Therefore SEIU and its members have become complicit in their hypocrisy.
The SEIU and majority of other unions have become nothing but special interests themselves. While they do some good things, they also do many bad ones, such as your example. I used to be a strong union supporter and even unionized a job I had a long time ago, but once unions started taking anti-environmental positions and acting on them, I stopped supporting unions.
And BTW, the unions and their supporters use the same argument that corporate Democrats use: you have to support unions because the only other choice is the large corporations. I say, a pox on both of them.
Hillary Speak: Let’s be real folks. Big banks to not give BIG money for JUST a speech. They expect a return on their investment. We ALL know what that means. They EXPECT you to answer the phone when they call. They EXPECT you will take care of them. They EXPECT you to protect them. They EXPECT that they own you ! ( Quid pro quo ) Hillary we are not stupid !
Yes and thank you for putting the information and documentation together for us.
My one concern is the old saying, “bad publicity is better than no publicity.” A better title might be, “How is Bernie Sanders the Only Candidate Who Embodies the Defeat of Citizens United,” or something like that in a more journalist’s style.
Corporate news is spewing the other names over and over and over- let’s not give them a cent.
Yes, the Democrats have become the GOP with their Corporate greed & corruption!
This is the very reason it is so important to vote for Bernie. Because Bernie is waging war against the multi-national corporations. These multi-national corps are attempting to gain control over our nation and the world. We ignore this war at our own peril. I have been fighting JPMorgan for 7 years. A vote for Bernie will support my effort and will begin the winning of this war.
Will someone please just tell Billary to STFU and go learn to bake some REAL cookies! Bill wouldn’t sleep with every hooker or sleazy bimbo around if she knew how to bake something other than herself.
My question is does Bill Clinton put a bag over her head when they go to bed, or does he sleep by himself in hopes that one of his whores will show up?
Using misogynist terms like “go bake some cookies” to a woman candidate isn’t convincing. There are so many reasons to not vote for this woman candidate, why stoop to anti-women rhetoric?
The word justify keeps coming up in context of Clinton discussions. How can Clinton justify the very many changes in what she supports v what she had claimed for decades were her very own policies? Since Mr. Sanders became a challenge to the crowning of queen hillary, we’ve seen more lies and innuendo spewed than we can track, even with the media’s constant attention. Hillary claims the ART of SMEAR has been practiced by the Sanders’ campaign. FALSE. It is Hillary herself, and her surrogates (like Barney Frank) coming out full on making claims about Mr. Sanders. There is the source of innuendo and smear. Not from the Sanders people. Hillary has the full support of her smear campaign on shows like Hard Ball, with Chris Matthews day in and day out hardballing right over anyone who comes on to tell the truth about Mr. Sanders. Is there any reason he gets soooooooo very angry over people who tell the truth about Sanders? There must be some reason why Chris reacts so vehemently in opposition of Sanders, and FOR Hillary. He loves to make the claim that we will eventually vote for HILLARY. It is a very false notion, but one he just loves to push.
Corporate Cash may “feel” wonderful when it is pouring in, but there will come a time when even dirty money cannot help you overcome the hatred and the full power of a nation fed up over your lies and cheating, smearing schemes.
Thank god for the intercept!
Not so fast. You should thank Greenwald and not the site that has started to publish stuff like this:
This comment sums things up nicely.
With Sanders releasing his tax return, which Froomkin smears as “hinky”, the piece offers nothing against Sanders yet the headline would suggest otherwise. Likewise, the story declaring “racial justice takes center stage” is puffery.
The wheels have come off this cart.
@#$%^&*(+ \oo/
*Hilary will make a fine handbag out of you, gator … and I never figured you for a suicide!?
I applaud your jouralism! Why doesn’t Bernie’s campaign manager have him making this point a talking point at EVERY stump speech? After the NY debate (which I think Bernie nevertheless won), I wonder if Hillary moles are his advisers. He missed at least two opportunities to dramatically change this race: first; by not making the bankruptcy reform act signed by Bill and, second; appointing her donor to a scientific committee. Ok, thirdly, having a fundraiser hosted by an NRA LOBBYIST. I’m certain there were more missed opportunities to bring to the MSM audience. Reiterating, I so wish your amazing analysis of the Clinton candidacy aligned with Citizens United would be covered by MSM. GREAT JOB!!!
p.s.
Glen, I’ve developed this saying regarding this so called, non existent quid pro quo Hillary often refers to:
When I visit my hair dresser… Trust me, there’s no expectation of payment for any kind of quid pro quo for my business. When I visit a Starbucks… Trust me, there’s no expectation of payment for any kind of quid pro quo for my business. When I visit the corner deli… Trust me, there’s no expectation of payment for any kind of quid pro quo for my business. When Hillary visits Wall Street… Trust her, there’s no expectation of ANY payment for any kind of quid pro quo for her business.
NO?
15 years of wars of choice that keep on spawning ‘enemies’ that we secretly finance and arm… Yet, we can’t afford a health care system for our Nation.
Prior to 2000, we were building alliances between corrupt governments and overthrowing Democracies… Yet, many Americans now need ID just to vote.
50 years of consumption and pollution through fossil fuel lobbyist influence for that almighty dollar to deny effects… Yet, education is now unaffordable.
I was raised to believe, as a young boy, IF I ever should need a stranger’s help, I need to find a policeman because he’ll help me… Today, he could kill me.
“IF I ever should need a stranger’s help, I need to find a policeman because he’ll help me… Today, he could kill me”
there is no situation bad enough that the police can’t make worse. They wear black for a reason.
I’ve enjoyed 2016 so far.
Democrats who were angry and in grief over the war in Iraq during the mid- to late-2000s.
Here are 2016, they back the candidate who voted for that unnecessary and disastrous war—and they smear the candidate who did not vote for that unnecessary and disastrous war.
If Hillary, rather than Bernie, ends up the nominee—it will be because this party is more a cult.
The whole system is rotten. Get Trump in and screw it up royally. Then there will be hope and change. Hillary or anyone else will simply perpetuate the same system below the radar.
On the other hand, if Trump does change the system, then all the better. Either way a President Trump is the only hope. He will at least build the wall with Mexico’s money and American will once again become great.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Sputnik_Not/status/721090926614089733/photos
And everyone who needs it will receive a becoming toupee.
I have run into several Clintoniacs who have actually used that very argument: Prove that taking money for speeches changed her vote. Um, no thanks, idiot.
The Clintons and the Bushes are peas in a pod. Who’s ready for more than a change of dynasty?
We argue that giving money to elected officials is certainly corrupting in the long run. It sets up a system of incentives that allows money’d interests to have a large sway in who wins elections, and those who want to win elections then try to help money’d interests. It’s absolutely corrupting.
What we disagree with is to turn to a specific person and say “this person is corrupt because they exist wthin this larger framework” Speaking about the incentives of an institution is not the same as pointing to everyone in that institution and saying that they hold that trait. If you wanna bring down the macro to the micro you better have some evidence that that particular person holds those traits.
For instance, let’s take college football. There’s been criticism that it makes its players feel entitled, which in turn makes them feel like they can have whatever they want and that leads to higher incidences of date rape. Fine, that seems like a reasonable argument. What is unreasonable is for you to turn to a random FSU football player and say “you’re a rapist because you play FSU football.” I like Glenn Greenwald, but he’s wrong here.
Your argument doesn’t hold up to a rational analysis. No one would give large campaign contributions to a candidate without expecting something in return, and Clinton has been in office long enough for the large corporations to know what they’re getting. Additionally, the fact that they WANT to give her money is bad enough per se. You’re correct that the entire system is corrupt, but Clinton is certainly not going to change it. Sanders and maybe Trump would try, though Trump probably likes it because it allows him to buy influence with politicians, including Clinton.
You forget that the Clintons are above this and any other constraining law. They were using these practices through various fronts long before Citizens United.
all I know is i once knew a girl who had a crush on me in middle school. She always brought me snacks and treats.
The day I started talking to another girl, the treats stopped.
there is ALWAYS something expected when gifts are given.
Yep :-)
Gee whiz, Glenn, why do you have to be so mean to Hillary? Can’t you understand that the folks on Wall Street pay her those obscene sums of money so she can act as their therapist, helping to wean them from the dreaded scourge of terminal materialism. Why don’t you come meet with me and the Beav and Wally, and we’ll explain it to you over a hearty bowl of Cheerios?
McClatchy-Marist:
Clinton 50-Trump 41
Sanders 57-Trump 37
Clinton 47-Cruz 47
Sanders 53-Cruz 41
Sanders 52-Kas 41
Kas 51-Clinton 42
Rationale:
Bernie is the underdog, and he’s going to be vastly outspent by Secretary Clinton. 96% of the time, the candidate spending the most money wins a race. If he’s going to secure the Democratic nomination, leverage and insurance will be needed. 1,000,000+ voters pledged to write-in Senator Sanders will be a compelling argument for some Democratic primary voters. Bloomberg Politics reports, “in Iowa and New Hampshire, with four-fifths of likely Democratic voters in both states saying they think Clinton is destined to be the nominee.” A write-in campaign is designed to undermine that “destiny.” Call it arm twisting, call it “breaking eggs,” call it compellence; we call it leverage on Democratic primary voters and insurance against corrupted super delegates “pledged” to another candidate before one primary vote is cast. A write-in strategy is an innovative idea to help a candidate secure a party’s nomination. We are convinced that if this strategy is not employed, there is very little possibility Senator Sanders will secure the nomination.
https://citizensagainstplutocracy.wordpress.com
I voted for HRC a few weeks ago and feel fine about it, but I was quite taken with Sanders’ remarks about I/P last night. Of course it was pretty mild stuff by the standards of the Intercept and its readership, but it was nevertheless bracing to hear a big-time presidential candidate criticizing Israel’s conduct in Gaza and speaking with evident sincerity about the need for American even-handedness and the important of treating Palestinians with dignity and respect. Good for the Bern.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!
????????
I’ll re-post this from Mona.
70 years of this shit. Non-Jews aren’t worth a “Jew’s fingernail” according to the IDF rabbi. How does that attitude play today or throughout history?
Well Gator, I am disappointed and perplexed. Some low-information voters have an excuse. You are not one of those.
Disappointed you, have I? I guess that’s sort of ironic.
“I voted for HRC”.
Of course you did. The Intercept’s biggest Semite is “fine” with the Shill and her uber-Israel stance but he’s touched by Bernie’s call for even-handedness regarding Palestine. How many more hectares did Israel steal today while you pacify your conscience?
You rail over others supposed racism yet there is no racist like the Jew. No other tribe declares themselves to be unlike all others.
I disagree with HRC’s views on Israel, but to my knowledge there are very few nationally prominent US politicians who hold substantially different views. That’s why I was struck by Sanders’ remarks.
I do feel fine about voting for her — I think she would likely be a decent to good prez. With that said, if the Florida primary were being held today, I would consider voting for Sanders based on what he said last night. But I guess timing is everything.
Lots of tribes think they’re pretty special. Ever hear of American exceptionalism?
There are many, many people who already voted in this country that, if they could vote today would vote for Sanders instead of Clinton. The problem, they just didn’t have a chance to hear Sanders message in the first part of the primary thanks to the corporate mainstream media, the establishment and the DNC. His message hasn’t changed, it’s just being heard for the first time by many.
Hillary Clinton gained the lead that she has and brags about based solely on an uninformed electorate. With the media and establishments help, she has tried to steal this election but the way I see it, the tide is turning.
You reptilian types always lunge at things mouth-first
because your little brains haven’t evolved beyond your
predatory instinctual reflexes.
Your ability to type on a keyboard is quite a nifty trick.
Gator, you seem so invested in I/P issues. How on earth could you have voted for Hillary? I don’t get it. Hillary has always been more of the same. If you voted for Hillary in Fl, who the f voted for Bernie?
I am in Florida and voted for Bernie. My husband and I have followed him for years. We switched from independents to vote for him. My husband has been independent since 1982, while I just switched from Dem a year ago after having enough of the Dem party not representing the voters.
You and your husband are awesome!!
Few people voted for Bernie in FL; he just never got much traction here.
In Democratic primaries I ordinarily vote for the candidate I think has the best chance of defeating the Republican nominee, because I’m one of those party-loyal Dems Glenn so despises.
I was not aware until the other night that Sanders and HRC hold significantly differing views on I/P. I had not heard Sanders really speak out on it before. As I said above, I might be voting for him if the FL primary were being held today.
I am invested in other issues too, including gun control and women’s reproductive liberty.
hahahah!! Take it in stride my friend. Glenn despises a lot of people. :)
Bernie is better than Hillary on almost every issue. What was Hillary’s position on guns in ’08? She’s flip flopper in chief. Not that there’s anything wrong with changing your mind. I change my mind all the time. I just can’t find reason’s for her flip flop, other than political expediency.
Not everybody can be like Bernie, and almost always be right on every issue. :) I cannot believe he exists.
Bernie 2016!!
“The fact that so many successful politicians are such shameless liars is not only a reflection on them, it is also a reflection on us. When the people want the impossible, only liars can satisfy.”
? Thomas Sowell
“Collectivism is the “philosophy” of every cockroach and sewer rat: “If I want it, I must need it, and if I need it, I have a right to it, and if I have a right to it, it doesn’t matter what I have to do to get it.” The
fact that such an inherently animalistic, short-sighted, anti-human
viewpoint is now painted by some as compassionate and “progressive” does not make it any more sane, or any less dangerous.”
? Larken Rose
it’s frightening to see so many of my fellow Americans so completely…asleep….disillusioned…indignant…and supporting Trump/Clinton. I had hoped that given the mockery and embarrassed “democracy” *cough*, that this would be a catalyst into the majority of us wiping the geoengineered crust off our eyes and seeing this as an opportunity to CHANGE this system…by whatever means necessary.
This government isn’t OURS, it’s a government that protects and enriches the government. So, whoever allows this ridiculous “election” continue without the least bit of objection….are traitors, along with your “elected” establishment.
People, we have to get out of our comfortable bubble…it’s going to take more than just tweeting and posting on FB…..much, much more than that. Or maybe, Glenn, you represent the answer…..Live Abroad!
“…just as they did when they instantly transformed from opponents to supporters of Guantánamo, drones, and spying once Obama stopped denouncing those things and started doing them…”
The Dems have been doing this since Bill Clinton’s first term, along with enacting welfare reform [sic], NAFTA, media consolidation, three strikes, the repeal of Glass-Steagall, etc.
All of these things were Republican wet dreams, but the Republicans won’t be thanking the Dems for them.
My God! This makes everything so much clearer now!!
Even this Chris Matthews interview makes more sense:
http://www.msnbc.com/hardball/watch/did-bernie-sanders-clinch-debate-victory-666457155653
He’s trying to persuade us that since there no provable quid-pro-quo, it’s “much more benign”!
I’m so glad you write these pieces, Mr. Greenwald! We are forever in your debt!
Glenn Greenwald … You are an International Treasure! May you Live Long & Prosper, and may you husband and your dogs bring you much joy!
Did we ever REALLY think that the Democrats were really any different that Republicans? Coke , Pepsi, but we keep BELIEVING there is a difference.
Just because they let you vote for a new master every few years….doesn’t make you any less a slave…..
Two wings……ONE BIRD!!
Yes and that bird is flying high above us all, mocking us and laughing at how gullible we all our while it s**ts all over us.
Good to see the Dems displaying the very same lack of principle as their Republi-CON buddies.
I just want Hillary Supporters to answer why they claim everyone does it, but Bernie doesn’t, why should she be using Super PAC money against Bernie when he doesn’t? Her ONE opponent doesn’t take said money, how about she play on the same level footing. If this was the general vs GOP using Super PAC money I could have some understanding (though still be disappointed in the selling out), but this isn’t that case.
You’d think she would considering she’s been adopting his policy positions throughout the election. She might as well just go full Bern.
The central delusion of the vast majority of voters in the
faking U$A is that democrats and republicans are opposition
parties.
The truth of the matter can now regularly be seen
in the use of so-called “omnibus bills” which are used to
gather together all of the most toxic sewage “resolutions”
and are passed with the message that they HAD to
create and implement these laws because the whole
economy would collapse without the combined
democrat/republican support for the destruction of the
what had previously been social safeguards.
This “omnibus” technique is now the preferred corporate
vehicle and the democrats and republicans together
keep throwing people out and running over people
while driving it toward an inevitably bigger crash.
If, after all of these years,
you don’t see the “bipartisan” Lie and their contempt
and collusion,
then you are allowing yourself to be an accomplice
when you pretend that there is a significant difference
within the two main arms of corporate imperialism.
The only proof I need is that not a single executive of any financial institution is currently under indictment or arrest for the events leading up to the great recession. Of course there is some saber rattling now that the statute of limitations has expired, but I know that money bought exemption from prosecution.
Bernie Madoff with the money,but was apprehended and made the scapegoat,fall guy.
His head is on WH wall.
And the Madoff scam only affected those who were wildly rich to begin with. That is the reason he was prosecuted and and example made of him. The Wall Street rape affected millions of non-rich Americans, obliterating their lives, which of course is why no prosecutions and jail terms occurred for the vile perpetrators of that horror. Peons just don’t matter.
This isn’t entirely true. There were people who weren’t wildly rich that were affected i.e. friend of a friend scenarios. This link does a pretty decent job with the prosecution, or lack thereof, situation. http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2014/01/09/financial-crisis-why-no-executive-prosecutions/
The article was not bad, but I felt, rather too mincing and “theoretical” in its commentary on the crimes. Here on the other hand are some folks who definitely know the crime when they’ve seen it, and are not trying to give outs to the Wall Street criminal syndicate or the criminals in the Obama/Bush/Cheney/ Clinton regime. My feeling is that in Hudson’s view of Ponzi schemes below, and Black comes right out and says it blatantly, Madoff would be almost trivial, a token prosecution on which Obama’s stunningly criminally corrupt “Justice” Department, has attempted to hang its filthy hat.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/04032009/watch.html
http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/03/25/the-great-ponzi-scheme-of-the-global-economy/
http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/04/01/the-lies-of-neoliberal-economics-or-how-america-became-a-nation-of-sharecroppers/
http://www.counterpunch.org/2011/06/17/when-only-quot-crazies-quot-see-the-bank-giveaway-for-what-it-was/
“I’M SICK OF IT” *Hillary Clinton on the widespread appearance she is corrupt
That’s how you do faux indignation, Glenn.
I would argue (as I did when Glenn first wrote about Citizens United @ Salon) expenditures, including those made by corporations, do not *necessarily* give rise to corruption … and appearances can be deceiving.
I would further argue (bc the trolls here must be slipping Glenn.), there is a distinction between expenditures to a Presidential candidate who may control the levers of power and, say, e.g. $250m to start-up a media organization dedicated to exposing greed, corruption and abuse of power.
Why would the leaders of an institution explicitly devoted to implementing their political agenda — i.e., winning elections — unilaterally disarm themselves?
It’s not like they’re some sort of gatekeeping free speech advocates.
I’ve seen the Wall St. Dems lose elections (by backing crappy right-wing candidates, e.g.) rather than support a liberal. You can find many examples from the Rahm Emanuel, Steve Israel, and Debbie Wasserman Schultz campaign committees.
Their first agenda is maintaining control of the party. Then it’s satisfying their corporate backers, for which they are well-rewared.
~
It does not follow that since That Which Exists [TWE] cannot be denied, your interpretation of history prior to TWE is what created TWE must also be indisputable.
I remember the aftermath of the 2000 election. Debbie Wasserman Schultz appeared on every media outlet she could find deploring the incredibly corrupt theft of the 2000 election.
Where was the purist Ralph Nader?
Where was the US Congress (other than the CBC)?
Where was the Democratic establishment after Al Gore so graciously rendered my vote moot by conceding the election?
Where was the legal establishment (except for a one page ad in the NYTimes)?
Where was the Republican establishment protecting the principle of free and fair elections?
Republican Vincent Bugliosi was the only one in popular culture I recall excoriating the USSC. Everyone else — virtually everyone else — shrugged off this piece of political corruption as TWE.
Or as the notorious legal saboteur Antonin Scalia remarked, “Get over it.”
Fast forward to TWE now: You get Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton.
I know my choice (despite having supported Sanders in my state caucus.)
What is your choice?
Given those two choices: Jill Stein. Let it break.
I voted for her in 2012.
It’s already broken.
Uncle Milty loves the hell bitch.Who da thunk it?What a phony hypocrite.(both)
You can make up this nonsense.
Or you can honestly repeat my words.
Honesty is also a choice.
Those who choose against honesty are commonly referred to as “liars.”
So basically that just distills down to, “I’m voting for the lesser of two evils.”
Which is exactly what everyone has done for decades. So wow thanks for sharing that incredible insight. But hey, fancy words!
Perhaps there are other ways to be involved in the political process beyond just voting in a general election every 4 years? Shocking I know. Ron Paul’s supporters figured that out in 2012. Get involved dude. You can help rebuild the Dem party after it implodes in a couple more election cycles. Watch what happens to the Republican party for clues of what is to come for the D’s. Bernie is your Ron Paul. Both parties are corrupt and share the same fate.
I suppose your spin is marginally better than exclaiming Milty “loves the bitch from hell.”
But really!
How demeaning! Not just to me but to the entire concept of democracy.
You could as well say “When you vote for the lesser of two evils, you vote for an evil! You devil worshiper!! Why do you think devil worshipers deserve a choice??”
Rather than this sort of restatement (a common human trait, “it’s not ice cream, it’s a treat!”) how about recognizing we have a choice — a vote?
In most countries that choice doesn’t exist. Who is your choice in Egypt? Sisi or Sisi … in Saudi Arabia? Allah or Allah. … in Russia? Putin or a Putin surrogate. … in China? Read the State announcements.
So yeah — I get to choose Sanders over Clinton and Clinton over Trump and Trump over Satan … or over the entire Republican party.
If you want to talk about the fate of political institutions (which I did in my original couple of posts preemptively deleted by some monitor making “just enough” free speech decision), reality (climate change) will make these institutions obsolete along with a thousand other silly assumptions cherished by this entire civilization.
I am always grateful for these authors that speak out.
Regarding money in politics: We can see how well minorities make out with regard to privilege and money–that is until they interject money themselves. Without money, you don’t have a voice in US politics. The goal of most humans in the US: Make money; and if you don’t, you are screwed. You have to wonder about Democracy itself and what a sham it is because it has and will support slavery, and money in politics.
The other argument the Hillary camp is using is that Hillary’s lack of ethics is OK because it makes her a winner over the Republican camp. What difference does it make? Both sides are getting paid to support the moneyed. Whatever laws are formed don’t affect them anyway. If they want an abortion, they’ll get one; if they are gay, no one is going to question them, or give them a hard time. If you have enough money laws won’t affect you. Look at both Democrat and Republican administrations: not that different in a lot of cases–only in a few issues do they differ.
Not only is money speech. Speech is money.
What sometimes troubles me about Glenn’s writing is his use of strawman arguments. It was evident when he wrote about Charlie Hebdo marchers, to whom all sorts of intentions were ascribed which could NEVER have been true for all of them, and in my opinion not even for many of them.
This whole article is full of “Clinton supporters argue” and then things most of them probably would never argue.
“After all, argue Clinton supporters (echoing the Citizens United majority), “the hallmark of corruption is the financial quid pro quo: dollars for political favors.”” Who said those words?
I’m not even American, although (because of climate change and war) these elections will affect me and mine strongly, as everyone else on Earth. And I certainly hope Sanders wins. Nor do I deny the corrupting influence of money on Hillary Clinton. What I don’t like is this accusing of Clinton SUPPORTERS of holding opinions many, perhaps most, don’t hold at all. I’ve voted for lesser-of-two-evils candidates often enough to know how it works. And I can well understand women excited at the prospect of a woman president, and victims of violence supportive of a candidate with a good gun control record, and people who want mostly to stop Republicans and think Clinton is more electable than Sanders, and so on, willing to forgive some speeches.
Simply and elegantly put. We are willing to forgive some speeches!
Well, if you read a lot of news media, and you look at social media, that is what is being said by most Clinton supporters.Essentially if Clinton supporters have a different view, then they can speak up like everyone else–but I don’t see it. And, if Clinton supporters feel differently, then why are they voting for and in the Clinton camp? I’m sorry but what you are saying doesn’t make sense.
The only problem is that “strawman” here is not a strawman: it exists! Isn’t it clear to you, in words and by deeds, that the Democratic establishment that is behind Clinton is entirely and wholeheartedly conniving, celebrating even, the massive injection of corporate money in her campaign? You have to be willfully ignoring what’s around you not to see it. It’s probably because you are not American, as you say. I, as an American, feel so much more serious about this election and that is why I welcome and appreciate Greenwald article–and that is why I support Bernie Sanders.
Unfortunately, supporters often tend to rationalize the behavior of their leader. There are a few, honest enough to admit, “Yes, Mrs. Clinton is a total hypocrite, but I still support her”. Unfortunately, they are a minority.
You must not have read closely. This was the end of Glenn’s first paragraph:
Which is true.
This is also true:
Anyone involved in the day-to-day arguing with Clinton supporters knows this. Glenn more than most, as he engages in a lot of that.
I recall your comments from the Charlie Hebdo discussions and agreed with much that you said. But on this you are utterly wrong.
Wicked Smart
Where, I ask, oh where is the evidence for Hillary Clinton’s incisive, penetrating, perspicacity?
She has never made a decision of note, that has proved to be right. Every decision seems to have been the outcome of a fierce calculation towards her “inevitable” coronation. Libya, to me, was nothing more than the creation of a talking point. My cynical brain thinks that she ploughed ahead with Libya so she could say during her presidential run, “look how tough I am. Look how successful “my” foreign policy was.” Unfortunately for Hillary Libya was a disaster, but fortunately for her and her supporters, she has been allowed to move on.
Everything she has done, whether it’s support for Marriage Equality, or $12 minimum wage or co-sponsoring a flag burning legislation, all seems to have been for the purpose of creating election year talking points.
This woman is absolutely without any substance. And that Washington post article about how she dealt with her emails reveal a lazy and negligent approach to her duties as secretary of state.
Compared to Bernie Sanders, Hillary Clinton is clearly unqualified, by many, many, many miles.
Bernie 2016!!
Its called “flexibility”. The “Democrats” are flexible.
The dems haven’t flipflopped, they were just paying lip service, and now killary can say: I have to take the money or trumpster will win.
The dem suckergencia™ will eat it up and the bernvictims will go running to killary as soon as the union and bankster supported former walmart board member wins the primaries, because “lesser evil.”
#afterbern
We are ready to feel the green!
http://www.jill2016.com
The “Dems” haven’t flip–flopped. They have always supported the taking of corporate money, unqualified support for corporate profit and expansion of empire, and mass murder, as policy givens.
When the white man brought rifles to the battlefield and the native americans only used spears and bows and arrows, who won?
Citizens United was an obvious bit of judicial activism which handed a structural political advantage to Republicans and their corporate patrons (like the Kochs).
Maybe Democrats should just gather on the reservations now because obviously in this new world of commercial factions purchasing legislation, the old ways do not work. It’s damn foolish of them to try to adapt.
Wasn’t it the famous war chief Sitting Stew who said, “We must surrender because they have guns.”
People don’t matter in this New Institutional World. Ideas aren’t particularly important. Even obvious dangers like ocean acidification or fracking go ignored.
Only competing factions matter.
Politicians and CEOs emerge Venus-like on a sea shell as defenders — as symbols — of these various factions … representing these various commercial factions. (Energy, health, pharma, transportation, chemicals, agricultural, media, security, defense, etc.)
Like the establishment democrats — those representing the institutional interests of the democrats — any and all institutions will necessarily adapt to changing circumstances. Why wouldn’t they?
The Scriptural Age has ended (in most of the world.) Enduring, unalterable traditions belong in a museum with pork prohibitions and pointy pontiff hats. (You can tell when a traditional organization is obsolete by the robes and rites its demands of its members.)
Furthermore, Citizens United demonstrates the utter corruption of this New Institutional World in which money and power have replaced tradition and democracy (and decency).
(If this wasn’t immediately obvious by those five who voted for CU, it should have been.)
Despise and deplore CU but recognize it is also a reality. This is the way of all wars — the guys with the guns win and the guys with the bows and arrows lose. Complaining about the gatling gun at Wounded Knee doesn’t change the reality of a massacre — and make no mistake: Democracy has been slaughtered by Citizens United and the Republicans.
Why should any institution, especially a political institution, ignore this reality? And why should the human symbol of that organization pretend to be above the blood that has been shed already? (I voted for Sanders in caucus and will vote for him in the fall if he is on the ballot. However if Clinton takes money from Goldman Sachs that means Goldman Sachs must support her political initiatives. A symbiotic relationship develops necessarily.)
It’s time to look for solutions to CU rather than to blame presumed counter-revolutionaries for being insufficiently fervent in supporting the revolution.
I’ve been viewing a number of these video produced by The Nerdwriter. Many of them are quite impressive. This one at the link is his commentary on Children of Men, a movie from 2006. Nerdwriter’s theme for this one is “Don’t ignore the background.” His commentary is relevant to this post and to are our world situation in general.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-woNlmVcdjc#t=468.901
I would hardly call Sander’s fundraising efforts during this Presidential election cycle an example of ” a SYSTEM of robust public financing.” Although it is true that Sanders has successfully employed a David and Goliath narrative in acquiring the necessary funds to give the corporate favorite a race for their money, it is also equally as true that Sanders is tapping into the same cultural angst that has been the bed-rock of Trump’s success; both ends of the political spectrum have extensively spoken of the corrupting influence of corporate campaign financing. The angst-driven impetus for Sander’s fundraising success can not, and will not, be sustained indefinitely; absent his successful nomination, Sander’s will dutifully sustain the status quo by encouraging his followers to support the corporately funded candidate from the Democratic party, Hillary Clinton.
More to the point Mr. Greenwald… In the Jan 22, 2010 Salon article that you cite, you state, “I’m also quite skeptical of the apocalyptic claims about how this decision will radically transform and subvert our democracy by empowering corporate control over the political process.” This is the heart of the matter is it not? Are we better off, or worse off, than we were four years ago? Many of your colleagues on the left (Nader, Chris Hedges, Nomi Prins, etc.) are all arguing that the Citizen United decision did radically transform and subvert our democracy by further entrenching corporate control over the political process. What say you?
The Most Expensive Election Ever Is a Billionaire’s Playground (Except for Bernie Sanders)
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/the_most_expensive_election_ever_is_a_billionaires_20160201
You wrote “the solution to domination of corporate donations was not to vest the government with the power to restrict political speech but, instead, to institute a system of robust public financing to even the playing field, to disempower corporations by rendering their expenditures unnecessary.”
All this does is waste money. Why should the American people’s money have to compete with the oligarchies fortunes as the money could be spent on many other worthwhile and needed things? The huge sums of money raised results in ads of shallow sound bites insulting to an intelligent mind, which largely benefits a corporate media that’s function is to lie, distract, or set up the next big lie.
The whole posit that corporations are people and money is speech is absurd to anyone with both a properly functioning brain and spirit. The corruption of our government due to its purchased politicians and judges along with the sham of corporate personhood are the two boulders that block the way to “This is what a democracy looks like”.
Disagree, other western countries have public funding of elections & it works a lot better (eg Australia). Moreover it’s like having an insurance policy this corporate takeover vis a vie Court decisions (perhaps unintended outcomes) which stuff-up democracy & put the influence into those who can pay for self serving outcomes. The system is clearly rigged & needs changing. Unfortunately Americans get their knickers in a knot confusing a public managed & paid-for electoral process as big government. Think of the billions spent on dumb wars – a smidgen could be spent ensuring fair grounded democratic processes..
Sorry Karl agree with the rest (majority of your comments), it’s just if the whole electoral process was publicly funded it would minimise the corrupt influences. To be sure the whole party & national electoral process needs a big overhaul – the delegate system is ancient & relates to the original Americans (back in the first years of the republic) not being able to read (literacy) & apparently make educated judgements & considering distances between townships etcetera (many issues of the time); why not have direct popularly elected leaders the whole delegate system is dumb, archaic & also prone to pernicious influence, why have then as a layer ? All adult Americans & American citizens should be placed on a national electoral roll at 18 (or when made a citizen), so when it comes to voting you go to the polling booth an electoral officer scores you off as attending, you vote & go home (still have postal if unable to attend). Any thoughts of rationalising this archaic system?
My knickers are not all tied up in nots.
And I am not crying out against publicly funded elections. What I am pointing out is that funding should not start out at a “we have to meet the oligarch’s funding level”.
Our election process should reflect a one citizen one vote value not my millions upon millions of dollars can drown out your vote and voice. If we just match them we automatically concede that they have half the speaking time to lie to us.
I did not “write” that. That was a cite from the above article by Glenn Greenwald.
I assumed you could figure that out. Congratulations.
Your comment was very much worth considering but for the fact that it should have been directed at Glenn Greenwald (given the quote). In turn, the quote itself should have been embedded or properly punctuated for clarity sake.
The Intercept itself ran an article in regard to how media outlets are viewing campaign spending as a financial windfall. If I were running things, I would put a cap on all corporate campaign spending. I would also legally compel corporate media to provide an equal amount of air time to all candidates free of charge. I would elicit the aide of people like Michael Milken to devise a system that better detects and informs the American public of corporate influence over politicians via lobbyist schemes. I do not believe that corporations should enjoy the same “natural” rights as individuals as envisioned by the founding fathers. As most people have never considered the issue of corporate personhood in depth, the legal opinions of liberal corporatists like Glenn Greenwald tend to blur distinctions in favor of the status quo.
Debate: Corporate Personhood
http://debatepedia.idebate.org/en/index.php/Debate:_Corporate_personhood
Karl you present some excellent ideas supported with a broad plan.
Additionally you are joining me in putting the absurdity of corporate personhood out there, which is very important, because it gets little to no attention and that is by design not happenstance.
The implementation of your ideas would certainly move us forward, but additional ideas and actions would certainly move us forward faster. To win a war you need a modern army, navy, air force, special opts, intelligence, etc. We are in an epic struggle to put us in a place where we can at least see “What a democracy looks like”.
When FDR gave us the New Deal it wasn’t a gift it was an appeasement to the peoples mandate of “Fix it or else”.
Amen.
It is a huge mistake to center this democrat hypocrisy
around Hillary Clinton. Yes, she is currently the most
prominent example, but this bald-faced corruption was
central to the elevation of Obama and Bill Clinton.
As a senator in the run-up to the election of 2008, Obama
was even more overtly corrupt in his hypocritical votes
and in his seeking corporate money for his campaign.
Hillary is following a well established democrat pattern –
say whatever will appease the desperately short-sighted
(most democrat voters)
while you simultaneously seek corporate favor and money
(thereby reassuring the corporate masters).
The only answer the democrat desperados have ever had
and will ever have is
(exactly as was stated above),
“That’s what they HAVE to do to get elected.”
This excuse was repeated thrown in my face in 2008 by a
number of “intellectuals” and it was clung to by
the lousy mass of democrat voters,
primarily as a way of NOT seeing the hypocrisy which is
central to the corporate arm known as the democrats.
Yes, the republicans are more blatantly lousy,
but the variable flavors of lousiness which are presented
as if they deserve to to labelled as bi-partisan release a most
telling odor of decay and toxicity,
no matter how much perfume they apply to the corpse
of democracy upon which they feed.
Glenn cites facts. You got anything to offer besides empty rhetoric?
Trump “The Fascist”: Backdoor Backing of a Political Psychopath Named Hilary Clinton
petras.lahaine.org/?p=2079
This is interesting….a thought similar to this crossed my mind a few weeks ago after seeing a bunch of huggy kissy pics of the Clintons with the Trumps. If Trump was simply an “employee” of the Clinton campaign. But…lets check out your link…
“If Trump was simply an “employee” of the Clinton campaign.”
or vice versa. The Clinton duo gushingly attended Trump’s wedding, and then there was that beautiful picture the Intercept ran of Slick Willy, Trump, Giuliani and Bloomberg, as fascist foursome, golfing…
Greenwald’s up to his usual Hillary-bashing. I’m just surprised he didn’t call her a whore. I can’t wait for Hillary to crush Sanders in NY!
I have to disagree. Mr. Greenwald is just calling out the truth here – the hypocrisy about the campaign funding is especially crazy (will the Dems go back on trying to reform it like the GOP now? Remember when they wanted “transparency”) .
Candidate Clinton is an incredibly damaged and weak candidate. That’s why she’s not dominating the self described socialist in the primaries (even if she was on vacation the whole time she should be steam rolling him). Something obviously is very wrong with her candidacy…
She also has, for anyone who cares to look, a very obvious appearance of corruption – these companies give this money to her because they expect something in return after she gets into control. The Wall Street group which most folks see as having gotten away with the financial crisis is a massive contributor. People are saying “enough”, that is Sander’s voters.
Well, she does take money for favors. I’m not sure it would be term much misplaced. But sadly for everybody, the term applies to every politician but Bernie.
Bernie 55%, Hillary 45%
Well, that’s a well thought out and intelligent response.
Inaccurate, tho. I would say she’s a weak, puppet with a vagina..who probably isn’t a big fan of the phallus…unless she’s strapping it on.
Even after her ludicrous debate performance last night?Yahoo is always right(that’s a given politically) and its all Obombas fault?
Notice the MSM wouldn’t allow comments on the debate,from the Graun west,a total blankout.
You know I can’t wait until the stake is driven through the Bernie’s heart. Just a few days. Then maybe the Sanity Clause people will come back to reality and realize that to compete you don’t give the game away, ho, ho, ho. It’s about winning, you can keep your self righteousness and use your $27 for beer or wine for your church of Bernie.
I appreciate your honesty, and that’s the whole point of the article: Just admit that all you care about is gaining power, and stop pretending you have “principles” or think money is corrupting or that you’re outraged that oligarchs fund the GOP.
Glenn, you’re wasting your breath. (I know, I ought to take my own advice.)
They care about NOTHING but themselves.
Look at the poll at the end, 86% say its corrupting. The Democratic party ignores this and embraces “legal” corruption (at a national level they have truly embraced this) at their own peril.
Parties, even in the U.S., come and go – once they become corrupt enough the voters will try to bring in people who are not directly bought off (Trump and Sanders) and if the parties ignore those desires of the voters then the parties will eventually get replaced by something that does give them what they want, just as they have in the past.
The Dems are actually in much greater danger here – the Greens cover nearly all the same bases, as policy don’t accept money from corporations and just need to start getting more votes to get Federal funding and they’re off to the races.
“It’s about winning.”
Spoken like a true Clintonite. No sense of decency or integrity, no empathy for the countless millions beaten down by the continuation of policies that benefit the few and do untold damage to the rest of us.
For many of us it’s about something more than just “winning,” but that’s not likely to penetrate the smarmy darkness where you live.
Well someone’s gotta get stomped and it might as well be all them peons. Hooray for our side.
The image that comes most readily to mind is Slim Pickens riding the bomb down…
Yee haw. Its all about winning the right to bomb and torture your way to glory, and subvert democracy in the service of empire, forever.
A stake through BS heart?From all appearances,the hell bitch is much more deserving.
What binds you in the darkness of insanity?
Zionism?Greed?
Hey Glenn,
1st). Thank you.
Then… Interesting Clinton was S of State, helping corporations take over the world; functioning as an ambassador for globalization.
I would like someone to post Hillary’s accomplishments as Senator from the great state of New York. Just what was her record so many news people have waved in our face that she can stand on. I remember she bumped a qualified woman out of that position just so Mrs Clinton could keep her name and face in front of the cameras…
I will subscribe to the Intercept ASAP.
Finally thank you for all your contributions to Democracy Now.
Thank Goodness for Amy Goodman.
Loveyabye. Dennis
One of the Democratic party partisan sites to see the Clinton argument played out has been left oriented site dailykos with dueling diaries for and against the candidates. And the common response to accusations of money influencing Hillary Clinton is for her supporters to demand proof of any singular case. As if there must have been a microphone in some backroom when Clinton literally says “Yes my name is Hillary Clinton, I am taking your bribe Mr. Banker.”
Just a side point really. When the revelations came out about Panama, everybody believed that the revelations proved Putin’s corruption even though he was not named in anyway in any document. From reading especially the Guardian, the connection to Putin and cronies were based on inferences and suppositions. They may have been good or bad leaps–don’t know, and don’t care–except to note that western media accepted them without question. The point is that Hillary, and I would say the entire American political and corporate establishment, is not held to the same standards by our media and political classes as leaders from other countries.
Adam H. Johnson is absolutely correct in that to defend Clinton’s corruption, the corruption of money from corporations, elites, does not actually exist nor count. And this idea will not go away especially if HRC is elected. I wonder if Bill Clinton will be allowed to continue to get paid for speeches? If so, buy the stock of every company he gives a speech to.
Proof of any singular case? I wonder why she decided to use a private server while SoS, and then employed a powerful DC law firm to scour the files and delete over half of the emails on it?
There is nothing “left” about DailyKos. Its just a shrill, blaring (or perhaps Blairing) siren for Clinton and Clintonisme.
After the coronation, Hillary will probably ram laws through allowing her to continue to make private speeches for profit. After all, Imperatrix Mundi means never having to give up the perks of power, particularly the pecuniary ones, after having earned the right to exterminate people en masse. Everything comes to those who are most worthy.
Anyone else see the Tom Hayden(SDS-haha) blurb for the hell bitch?Wow.
A bunch of wankers.
Hilary fought against Citizens United, because it would corrupt politics, another flip flop
If embracing= fighting against, then she did that thing.
Having read most everything here i feel the need to point out that the election is about the many issues but only one thing…
earning power vs owning power
How does that grab you?
The four choice poll is a classic false dilemma. The easy and correct answer is “donations are not necessarily corrupting in individual cases but they are in the aggregate”. Not all politicians who take corporate donations are corrupted by them, but enough of them are to give the government a strong interest in curtailing them.
I’m looking forward to more salty articles from Glenn as Bernie’s inevitable loss draws near.
“Not all politicians who take corporate donations are corrupted by them”.
Yes they are. This is why in a church, donations are to be made anonymously. It has nothing to do with masking vanity, it has to do with creating a specific dependency relationship. In fact, the DCCC dialing for dollars office instructs the elected congressional solicitors to return to prior donors which is an acknowledgement of favoritism. Because if that were not the case, the pre-emptive remark at the beginning of the call would be something like… “___________________________”.
Hillary Clinton corrupts everyone around her with her grime.
I have to admit that when you look at Justice Stevens statement saying that selling votes and selling access is different only in degree, not kind, it makes this communication between Soros and Clinton pretty remarkable. He explained that he made a mistake in endorsing and funding Obama’s campaign and not Hillary’s.
“His spokesperson emailed Clinton to tell her that, “”He said he’s been impressed that he can always call/meet with you on an issue of policy and he hasn’t met with the president ever,” Neera Tanden said in a 2012 e-mail to Clinton, who was then serving as Obama’s Secretary of State. “He regretted his decision in the primary — he likes to admit mistakes when he makes them and that was one of them.”
http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2016-03-15/soros-alarmed-by-trump-pours-money-into-2016-race
This was while Hillary was still SoS, and everyone knew she was running for President in the future. His tacit message was, Barack didn’t meet with me. You did. Therefore, I regret my backing of Barack, not because he was a bad President, but because he denied me access. After explaining his sole criteria for receiving funding from him, Hillary had no doubt about how much future access would be expected if she became President.
It’s time to move on from Citizens United. “Money = speech” is a nice slogan, but it doesn’t help to illuminate the real issue – which is that public opinion, and therefore free speech, matters less and less.
The most effective money spent by the Clinton campaign was to buy the loyalty of the super delegates. Why buy speech, when you can buy votes? “Money = votes”.
Similarly, Mr. Trump’s spending on ads, both by his campaign and indirectly through super PACs, has been the lowest of any remaining candidate. If he’s smart, he’s saving his money to lobby the RNC rules committee which will decide his fate.
So the problem is solving itself. As individual voters become increasingly irrelevant, spending money to influence them becomes correspondingly less attractive. Elections used to be an exercise in bribing the voters with their own money. Now politicians only worry about bribing the special interest groups that control key voting blocs.
Those advocating for public funding of campaign advertising are trying to solve yesterday’s problem.
The hamster wheel is getting much bigger and much heavier and the hamster waste is slicking the track.
We’re all in the same boat and it’s sinking? I think Bernie and Donald have sounded the call to abandon ship.
disclaimer: I am not petitioning to nullify or dilute your always wonderful satire. I am piggybacking for effect for those who dont get it and need a kick in the pants. Nor should this in any way should be construed so as to attract readers so as to enure a large enuf support group so as to be considered a voting block such that vast amounts of money can be garnered for predictable voting support.
Hey, if we could solve all our problems from a WEEK ago we’d be ahead of the game.
Thank you for interjecting sanity into the marshes of chaos created by “opinion journalism” media.
Ignore the corporate political contributions.
Immediately before launching her campaign for the presidency, between April 2013 and March 2015, Hillary grabbed over $21 million in “speaking fees” from 80 or so banks, financial institutions, pharmaceutical manufacturers, healthcare providers, tech companies, lobbyists and other special interests. These were not “donations” to a political campaign. Nor were they “contributions” to a shell foundation. This was $21 million in personal income to Hillary, taken from 80 powerful vested interests, averaging well over $200,000 per pop.
A $21 million shake down immediately before running for President is not corruption? What is?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dY77j6uBHI
The real Hilary Clinton… This is the truth https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dY77j6uBHI
“We need money in politics to get money out of politics”
At the very top, the banksters own the democratic party. The dem party courts income issues. At the top, the MIC owns the republican party. The repuber party owns the moral issues. Together, the parties in unison create and finance wars.
Real simple. Get a clue. Vote for BERNIE or TRUMP. This is the only way to begin to destroy the parties-gone-mad.
In Trump’s case, the supposed cure might turn out to be worse than that it claims to treat. Vote for Bernie Sanders or Jill Stein.
I agree, and why anybody believes Trump would actually change things is beyond me — Trump changes his messages whenever he feels like it. It’s like Hillary Clinton only worse.
You Zionists want no part of Trump,eh?Haha.
Trump Sanders;Whom the would be gods support(criminals like the HB and Cruz),means we should vote for those they abhor.Simple.
“You Zionists want no part of Trump,eh?Haha.”
You think I’m a Zionist??? Bwhahahah! I’m a member of the Green Party. Enough said.
Except that with Trump you’re just cutting out the middle man not the corruption. He’s a lobbyist for himself.
Question. What explains why the repuber party is so afraid of him and wants him out of the picture if he is such a good repuber?
Answer. As a business man, DT negotiates win-wins. Repubers only want lose-wins.
You need to understand this because repubers are thieves. DT is not a thief. This is the most important aspect of his candidacy. The repuber party operates like organized crime. They don’t want a fair minded person in their midst least of wall one at the top. And you will also see that hillary is not so fair minded as DT. so…..
What easily explains why the Repubs wouldn’t like for Trump to win is that he wouldn’t owe allegiance to THEM specifically. He would not necessarily be “good for the Party” in the sense of not being beholden to one particular form of cronyism.
But it does not follow that Trump is an ideological threat to the Republican Party, or the establishment, or that you or I would be somehow enhanced in our lives because of the trivial power problems of Republican party hacks.
“he wouldn’t owe allegiance to THEM specifically. ”
exactly.
“But it does not follow that Trump is an ideological threat to the Republican Party”?
He would not be a willing participant in the party’s criminal ways.
– military invasion of a sovereign country
– holding the country hostage over a budget requirement
– blank check for the MIC
– killing american jobs for their party donor class
– allowing the decrepidation of infrastructure
The republican party operates like organized crime. and they love it.
You are insanely naive to think Trump would have some issue with military invasion of a sovereign country. Or “killing American jobs” — like he gives a shit. Infrastructure? He cares about infrastructure?
Come on. Think harder.
i cannot reveal more personal knowledge of whence i speak. be assured i would not make such provacative pronouncements if i was not confident. it is withreputational risk that i speak out here on things very contrary to common opinion.
FWIW, i did like mitt romney did in such circles as an executive. Therefore i beg a little benefit of any doubt and thank you for any reconsideration.
ps- i am not a republican, nor dem. i am independent.
His words to the contrary,and his stance of getting out of Nato,and America First are much more evidence than your illiberal lies.
The rethugs and demoncrats are just arms of Likud.
Likud wants no part of Trump or Sanders.
What do people need to not see the unbelievable influence of a foreign nation controlling US?
“his words to the contrary” ???
You mean that gratuitous advertisement Trump did for Netanyahu? The one you’d like to pretend never happened, dahoit?
(and I do mean GRATUITOUS, unnecessary, foolish, dishonest — what Americans do campaign ads for candidates in foreign elections? that’s going out of the way, isn’t it?)
Well, Sanders has demonstrated that he can raise the cash without signifiant corporate donations. He has not demonstrated that Hillary can, and I doubt that she could.
Excellent article Glenn Greenwald, as always. I would like to make a suggestion for a potential follow up though: the current lawsuit against the Commission on Presidential Debates by the Level the Playing Field organization and the Libertarian and Green Parties. One of their arguments is that the favoritism shown by the largely corporate funded CPD towards the Democrats and Republicans is itself an illegal campaign contribution.
http://ballot-access.org/2016/04/11/level-the-playing-field-asks-u-s-district-court-to-order-fec-to-re-evalulate-commission-on-presidential-debates/
didn’t know that. i mean i didn’t even know there was an outfit that promotes and enforces the 2-party system. totally corrupt.
The 5 justices that voted for money in politics misconstrued degree and kind, then violated the principles of the Declaration of Independence (which they always ignore as the context for the Constitution). They need to be impeached. If that is not do-able, they need to be charged and prosecuted for sedition.
Hillary top ally/Columbia University professor Tom Watson said Bernie and his supporters are like Nazis
“Hate rally in Washington Square – are they passing out armbands? #BernieBund”
4/13/2016 7:25PM
He never apologized. She never apologized.
Dr. Song apologized. Bernie also apologized.
Think of the absurdity of apologizing for calling criminal whores and the daily small hands illiberal porno cartoons depicting Trump.
Apology for nada.Stupid.
hillary supporters, like obama supporters in 2008 and 2012, have nothing but identity politics and a cnn-level of “knowledge” to lean on. just as obama got a free ride on “what if bush did it instead”, she’ll get a free ride on “what if any white male did it” because estrogen.
i’m sure some of them actually see no problem with it – the lena dunhams of the population, raised on college feminism, bling culture and hipster privilege, don’t care that she “gets hers”. the difference in their minds between her and beyonce is limited to fashion choices and singing ability. otherwise her speech money and her ex-goldman son-in-law raise no alarm bells in a bunch of well off casual racists who worship money and status. and don’t forget that every word in this paragraph makes me a “misogynist”…unlike the white guys at goldman spending their bonus on strippers and escorts.
expect more of the persecution complex in coming months…jesus, if she gets the vapors when someone (perceptively) says “whore” how will her debates with trump or paul ryan look?
That the democrat elite take this position cannot be in the least surprising. We had a preview of it in the 7 years following the 2008 presidential election. Financial reform, domestic spying, endless war, you name it. All the things that the democrats spotlighted as campaign issues in 2008 became part of their policy in the years that followed. For both branches of the Party, issues like this are entirely artificial, and exist only to support the appearance that there is any difference between them.
While the republicans are deserving of the great masses of abuse being heaped upon them, we need to remember that it was not them but rather the democrats who brought big money into politics. What John Boehner and his cohorts did was nothing other than adopting the same tactics as their ostensible opponents. At least catering to the rich and powerful is in keeping with traditional republican values.
Actually, that’s a pretty fair assessment except that it goes farther back in history, and pervades the political economies of Western Europe . After disastrous presidential defeats in the the elections of the seventies and the eighties the democratic party has to shore-up that appearance of difference. 1990: Enter the New Democrats, the Third Way International by way of their think tank The Democratic Leadership Council as propounded by Bill Clinton in the New Orleans Declaration
“As far back as 1990, Clinton and the DLC had declared in the “New Orleans Declaration” that they intended to echo the language of conservatism. The Third Way advocates pledged their devotion to the mission of expanding “opportunity, not government.” The war on poverty was replaced by a “politics of inclusion” that would phase out social welfare. The compensatory role of social assistance and affirmative action were denigrated. The lauding of individual initiative and upward mobility refuted a focus on problems of group inequality and the search for social solutions to discrimination.”
original Link: The Third Way International
https://www.jacobinmag.com/2016/02/atkins-dlc-third-way-clinton-blair-schroeder-social-democracy/
Throughout the 1990s, Bill Clinton and other Democratic Leadership Council figures launched a campaign to take their Third Way ideology global.
by Curtis Atkins
After giving the Intercept shit in another thread for these permanent advertisements for facebook and twitter that litter every article here–I realized that if corporate cash corrupts politics, then corporate advertising corrupts journalism. It’s hard to argue one without the other.
I understand the argument that since the Intercept loses money that we should give the permanent “sponsored by facebook and twitter” advertisements a pass–but being bad at business doesn’t make you a socialist, it just makes you bad at business.
Or maybe the argument is that bribes not converted to cash don’t count as bribes. Plus one for more prostitutes.
What the hell are you even talking about? Are you claiming we have paid sponsorship and ads from Twitter and Facebook or something? I’m certain I”ll regret asking this.
Actually, you understand nothing. The argument isn’t that the Intercept loses money. It’s that we don’t try to make money. We don’t sell ads. We don’t sell subscriptions. We’re constituted as a non-profit so are legally barred from generating and distributing profits.
Glenn, I suspect I will regret your answer, but are you really arguing that you just put advertisements for twitter and facebook on the website for the hell of it?
Or are you arguing that as long as the benefits you get from advertising twitter and facebook are not monetary that it somehow doesn’t count?
If some corporation directly gives advertising to Hillary Clinton instead of cash then it doesn’t count?
I don’t believe for two seconds that you don’t understand how the Upskirt Economy works, and why the Intercept puts advertisements for facebook and twitter up on this website. You do it for the chance that facebook and twitter will advertise for the Intercept.
One hand jerks off the other.
You also know full well that facebook and twitter are going to spy on and monetize the personal data of your readers.
Apparently your idea of non-profit involves corporations horse trading the privacy of individuals for promotional benefits as a new form of currency.
Glenn, I have had many criticisms of positions you have taken, but until now, I have never thought of you as completely oblivious.
Also, no comment on the idea that corporate advertising corrupts journalism?
The word “advertisement” does not mean what you think it means. There are no advertisements here! At all.
LNC, WTF? You surely cannot be unaware that significant levels of political discussion occur on social media; that would especially include Twitter, which is heavily used by political people.
Tweets are cited all over now, including in establishment media because they can be quite consequential. Indeed, a prominent Zionist magazine has written that Twitter is Israel’s new enemy.
Dude, get out of your cave!
@-Mona-
Obviously, I understand why the Intercept is giving [advertising, promotion, PR] to facebook and twitter. It is a substantial part of my argument. That Hillary Clinton or facebook has power is exactly why people want to suck their toes.
Any comment on the idea that corporate [advertising, promotion, PR] corrupts journalism?
I really don’t know what to say, LNC. You’ve never written crank stuff before.
Many, many outlets publish tweets and even the occasional Facebook post for the reason that news happens in those spaces. As I already referenced, Zionists see social media, especially Twitter, as their greatest enemy.
Indeed, Prof Steven Salaita was fired from an Illinois University, in a brouhaha that got national coverage, over his series of tweets issued during the bombing of Gaza. A CNN reporter was admonished and reassigned for calling Israeli thugs — who threatened her — “scum” in a tweet. This. Was. All. News.
Nothing “corrupt” is going on here. It’s reporting, straight up.
Mona is right: It is all zionist’s fault and because the Hypocrite, err, the Intercept is mad at “zionists” for helping Jews to continue to live in their own country, you have Twitter and Facebook, cause both are Israel’s enemies.
“Corporate money corrupt journalism” Of course it does, especially when you have an oligarh with some smelly US government connections as a boss and sponsor. Check this: http://davidshurter.com/?p=3815
But, the Intercept has never been about journalism. That is why the real ones like Taibi don’t fit.
gorsky evinces confusion, writing:
Twitter has been cited by a leading U.S. Zionist magazine as an enemy of Israel. The headline: Israel has a New Worst Enemy — Twitter The article begins:
Medical personnel were also tweeting horrifying pictures of dead and wounded Palestinians, grieving parents and siblings, and refrigerated trucks storing corpses because the morgues were full. Video of despairing Palestinians wandering in the rubble that had been their neighborhoods and homes was uploaded; one captured a lone, unarmed male in the debris being shot and killed by an IDF sniper.
Twitter married to the obscene bombardment Israel inflicted on Gaza in the summer of ’14 changed the narrative in my country. It fueled BDS, as one university government after another has voted to divest.
Twitter is a powerful tool for truth. And it often communicates critically important news.
I trust you now understand my point.
“I trust you now understand my point.”
I did get your point the first time, but you didn’t get mine. My point was sarcastic: you were like that clockwork orange repeating Zionists/Hasbara even in articles that had nothing to do with the Middle East…
You asked “Any comment on the idea that corporate [advertising, promotion, PR] corrupts journalism?
How about I take a stab at it, of course it does. The first ad that appeared in the first newspaper put a crack in the foundation of our Freedom of the Press. Newspapers rarely ran articles about how decrepit car dealers were when those dealers filled their papers with full page or better car ads.
We live in a world that is all one big gray area and it always has been that way. Hey, Adam and Eve could not figure out what to do with a dam apple. Even our Constitution, lauded as many do, allowed slavery and counted a Blackman as three fifths of a person.
What gives us hope is that when the pressing times come and the sky changes just enough to enable fine people of wisdom to see, although obfuscated by the gray, that there is a black and white for them to be able to choose the cherished white maintained in its purity by truth and justice.
I would like to hope The Intercept and its staff will be there to help us see through the gray, because the gray is only getting thicker.
@Presumptuous Insect @Vic Perry
Is the argument here that PR and promotion is different from advertising? If this is just a linguistic argument, then I don’t care if you call it advertising or PR and promotion. Frankly, I see no real difference between PR, promotion and advertising–except that advertising is more honest, direct and straight forward and much less sleazy.
If you guys want to call this PR and promotion instead of adverting then go at it, but I’m not sure if this making the point you want to make.
So are you arguing that the logos, links and buttons for twitter and facebook don’t count as PR and promotion, or is this just a distraction from addressing the substance of my points?
@Vic Perry
I though we agreed in the Trump story that relentless criticism doesn’t actually count as support and promotion.
I agree with you quite often.
Wow.
You are…uh, not bright.
THEY ARE NOT ADVERTISEMENTS FOR TWITTER AND FACEBOOK. They pay us nothing.
The reason we put them there is what everyone else has explained to you: not to promote their site, but to promote our own.
A huge number of people – soon to be a majority – read articles not by going to their favorite news outlets, but by seeing the material promoted on their FB and Twitter feeds by their friends and those they follow. Buzzfeed, for instance, only gets 25% of its traffic from readers who go to its site: the rest is from FB, Twitter, Snapchat and the like.
Having people share our articles on FB and Twitter is way to get new readers and maximize the impact of our journalism. Those buttons make it easier for people to do that.
We’re not receiving any payment from those sites. The only value we receive from them is that they bring new readers which, in turns, increase the reach of the reporting and commentary we offer.
If your “argument” really is that any mention of those sites helps them, and is thus “advertising,” then – as another commenter pointed out, you’re guilty of the same thing by uttering their names in your comments here (and, I’d bet, elsewhere).
We don’t accept advertising of any kind – corporate or otherwise. What else would you like to know?
I understand completely how and why facebook and twitter has convinced an incredibly large percentage of corporate websites to put “social media” companies logos, links and tracking scripts* on their own websites.
From an advertising/PR perspective it really is the perfect business model. Convince people that they will get publicity, if they will just give your company free publicity. It’s like a perpetual motion machine of logrolling and mutual back scratching that puts the pro in quid pro quo. Of course, when it is time to pay the bills, money is generated by collecting and monetizing the personal information of everyone who stops by. We also call that spying.
I get why you, and why facebook, and why some fucking Dunkin Doughnuts franchise is willing to play this game–There is no cost to you if you value your visitors privacy at zero. It’s a win-win-win situation.
But from an internet freedom point of view this is pure evil.
From a free speech, spying is bad, reduce corporate power, open standards/open source, distributed is better than centralized, technology as liberation–not chains, honesty, and “educate don’t exploit” point of view–this win-win-win quid pro quo is pure evil.
It is the technological personification of the .00001% vs everyone else. Corporate dominance of the internet. Real names and cell phone numbers required. Banned and erased without recourse. Endless spying and datamining. All of the things you can imagine that go along with an internet from hell.
And really this couldn’t be a better example of how systemic corruption operates without any of the participants seeming to be aware of how things could be any different, or how their own individual behavior makes the system possible.
I get the arguments for doing this. “Free” publicity. Everyone is doing it. You can’t get ahead without playing the game. No money is changing hands. It helps us do good in the aggregate. I could go on forever because these are that same tired excuses we have heard for years. Hell two of those are from Clinton’s last speech.
Criticism and exposure does not equal promotion. There is a huge difference between calling facebook the internet anti-christ and sticking their fucking logo on the top of every page.
I mean seriously, you have two corporate logos on the top of every article. If you were reading a book and every page had the fucking McDonalds logo on the top you would be like “What the fuck?” If you were watching the news on television and there was a Starbucks logo superimposed on the screen during the news you would be like “I hope CNN is getting paid the big bucks for this.”
If you later found out that CNN wasn’t paid for superimposing the Starbucks logo, but instead did it for “free” with the hope that people would walk into Starbucks wearing a CNN T-Shirt–just because CNN wasn’t paid, then this somehow isn’t advertising anymore? Call it whatever you want. We will have to create new names for what we have become.
Frankly, that is some kind of weird corporate sycophancy. I will put your corporation in a positive light with the hope that a some point in the future this will pay dividends. It’s preemptively selling out…on faith.
I meant the question in a general sense. Does corporate advertising corrupt journalism in the same way that corporate money corrupts politics? And secondarily, does a reliance on corporate advertising dollars create a situation where the media has a hard time covering and understanding the idea of corporate influence in donations, speech fees, etc. Can the media cover that story without highlighting their own conflict of interest?
You may also transpose those questions over to the twitter and facebook conversation if you want;)
*Thanks to the Intercept, after much pressure below the line, for finally not allowing javascript from facebook and twitter–although some authors here still embed tweets–don’t do that, by the way.
Jesus Christ, I thought you meant the quotes of Tweets and Facebook in articles. No, you means something EVEN MORE STUPID: The option to tweet or post this site’s articles to those social media from here, THAT has your knickers in a twist.
All I can tell you is I’d be very pissed if that option were not here, and am very annoyed when I encounter something elsewhere that I want to tweet and there’s no icon to do it. So, I endorse this gross corruption going on here. [eyes rolling]
@-Mona-
I can’t believe you like the idea of being spied upon, having all of your internet history datamined, subjecting yourself to variable pricing and information tailored and edited specifically to manipulate you as an individual. And then having all this information passed on the government. Does corporate spying not bother you at all? Do you only care about government spying? Do you care about spying at all?
First and foremost this is about spying. The “Upskirt Economy” is fueled completely by collecting and monetizing everyone’s personal data. This is how facebook and google have made so much money and become so large and influential. Their business model is to collect as much information as they can. In pursuit of this plan, datamining (Upskirt) companies offer “free” services to businesses so that businesses will trade their customer’s privacy for those free services. It’s a wonderful hack of capitalism. What business is going to turn down free shit?
Very few value their customer’s privacy at all, so this is a no brainer. Whether it is code or analytic services from google, or publicity/PR services from facebook and twitter, the Upskirt Economy is not just about getting pictures of everyone’s knickers (twisted or not) it’s about bribing other businesses to send them their customers and their customer’s personal information. Google and facebook would be nowhere if so many websites didn’t take their bribes.
On top of all this, the system undermines an open internet and needlessly inserts corporate profiteers into personal and collaborative communication. (which should be a basic human right–not a means of surveillance and control.) 99.9999999% of the population is considered product to be sold, monetized, exploited, manipulated and then tossed out.
The Upskirt Economy is the new capitalism. Except even worse and with even less players. The system, because of the huge data asymmetry, will put even more power and money in the hands of the very elite at the direct expense of everyone else.
1) Spying
2) Bribes
3) Corporate controlled internet
4) An even worse version of capitalism
What’s not to love?
This is like saying that including a phone number to call is advertising for the phone company.
@Vic Perry
A phone number is not the AT&T logo. A phone number that is answered by Kate Hudson’s Fabletics when you call is not AT&T’s phone number.
Most importantly, facebook isn’t the internet.
Look at the numbers Glenn posted. How much is 75% of a site’s traffic worth? That’s quite a pretty penny wouldn’t you say?
The contradiction here is that The Upskirt Economy, by providing such a large percentage of site traffic, has incredible power over online media companies. The feeding and nurturing that machine is the only thing keeping many media companies out of bankruptcy. So the [links, logos, advertisements, PR, promotion, marketing] for facebook etc. are somehow simultaneously not advertisements meant to persuade people to go to facebook and do free promotion, yet those same advertisements are what help drive the vast majority of site traffic.
With that kind of power, The Upskirt Economy is even more corrupting of journalism than corporate print advertising. At least with print advertising your pool of potential advertisers is everyone. If you don’t want to associate yourself with corporations that spy, then you can run ads for organic farmers, or from organizations opposed to spying. The Upkirt Economy is run by a handful of large corporations that are all ruthlessly dedicated to spying on their users. There are no hippies here.
The fact that many here don’t see any quid pro quo at all, shows how deep the corruption runs.
Whether you call it Advertising or Adverdisguising, The Upskirt Economy has fully corrupted journalism, and made one thing fully clear–
When it comes to journalism, the readers are the product. Journalism is the bait used to trap readers and harvest their personal information to be traded/sold to large datamining corporations. That shit is fucked up.
When you dissect it as a business plan, The Upskirt Economy really shows the genius of cynical evil. It is plan that works because it combines two of the worst human instincts. Greed and the desire for Fame. Fame is they key part. Facebook and twitter are so well known only because the more an individual or organization wants to be famous, the more that individual or organization will tell the world about facebook and twitter. They turned America’s obsession with fame and being famous into the world’s biggest viral marketing plan and pyramid scheme.
In fact, a person’s “publicity whore” rating is the same thing as their “publicize social media” rating. The two are the same thing.
Maybe this doesn’t solve your concern, but ‘ghostery’ blocks those embedded tweets, unless you click on it for temporary unblock, of youtube links. Download it.
lastly is very concerned that you and theintercept speak out with free (unpurchased, unsold) voices that you yourselves own 100%.
wallstreet’s fear is free and clear
thelastnamechosen mentioned Twitter! and Facebook!!
That’s an advertisement!!!
how much did they pay you, lastnamechosen????
how can we trust your independence, after this????????
yeah. That’s the level of “advertising” they have on this site. you morons.
lastly is a conjob.
some good comments actually
thanks for that.
i respectfully apologize for calling you a ‘conjob’.
i was mistaken.
Money is not speech, it is currency created by man to decipher trade value. Speech is God-given to only humans for a reason.
At least the GOP is honest about their intentions, while the DNC folks talk about ideas to end corruption but don’t do much about it.
As a delegate in my State in the Democratic Party, I understand why Bernie supporters get so frustrated with Hillary supporters. The Hillary supporters don’t see corruption as the original sin with our political system. Others want to see a female President so much that they don’t care.
Money is not speech, it is currency created by man to decipher trade value.
Imagine that Congress tomorrow passed a law that stated: “It shall be illegal to spend any money to promote left-wing views. Money is permitted to be spent only to promote right-wing views. Everyone, however, shall still be permitted to express left-wing ideas: just not by spending money to do so.”
You would have to say that’s not a violation of the free speech clause of the First Amendment since money isn’t speech, right?
Hey Glenn, is this the best hypothetical for your case (whatever that case is)?
Have there ever been any campaign finance laws passed that specified only one kind of political position as unallowable? If there have, then….
and If not…..anyway, the big question: are any limitations on campaign spending, in your view, constitutional?
No. There’s never been a law like that. You know why? Because it’s been implicitly assumed that it would be instantly declared unconstitutional as a violation of the free speech clause.
But under your theory, that couldn’t happen. How would you argue that such a law is unconstitutional? What clause does it violate?
I addressed this at length in the article I linked to here, but in essence: yes, I believe it’s constitutional to limit and regulate direct donations to a candidate.
Okay thanks, I don’t have a “theory”, and I will go look at the article linked to.
mmmmmkay? I’m not the enemy, pal.
@ Glenn
I don’t think that’s quite what he’s arguing although it is unclear. I don’t think he’s necessarily arguing that human beings should be prohibited from spending money to disseminate their “political” ideas because money isn’t speech.
I think he’s arguing that only individual human beings should be allowed to use their money to disseminate their political ideas via “political speech”, and/or only associations of individuals where all the individuals that make up that association (and the money they voluntarily contribute to it) are permitted to democratically decide what “political” ideas they agree to advance and how the money they contribute to said association is spent to do so. And he’d probably argue the corollary that there should be full transparency with regard to who actually funds those entities/associations.
The idea that only human beings, rather than legal fictions, should or can engage in “political speech” is only problematic in a few circumstances–the most obvious being the “private press” and/or “media” which are, generally speaking, for-profit legal entities not democratically constituted associations to advance political ideas or agendas of their internal democratic human majorities.
Now I’d never argue anybody who wants to be the “press” should be prohibited from forming a legal entity and engaging in journalism (however defined), or even advancing “political ideas” as part of that journalism.
Nevertheless, and I’d think you’d concede that that decision is a double edged sword (from a free speech perspective) particularly in an environment of consolidated for-profit mass media ownership. Put differently, the corporate mass media’s reach, depth and ability to saturate and overwhelm less well-funded “press” enterprises, assuming any exist, can lead to dissemination of some very bad ideas and/or suppression of very good political ideas and be very “anti-democratic”.
I mean it isn’t like you don’t take the mainstream mass media to task as a function of your life’s work on a regular basis for that very reality. In fact it is one of your central areas of interest and critique.
Now of course, the internet has and/or may continue to alter this reality in (un)predictable ways and there are many ways to challenge any particular mass media created “journalism” and/or opinion.
But personally I don’t believe for-profit newspapers and the like should be in the business of issuing “endorsements” for any particular candidate for political office–ever. I don’t have any problem with them engaging in a dissection or analysis of a politician’s proposed ideas, platforms or policies, but I don’t think they should be in the business or permitted to “officially endorse” as a matter of “editorial board” or “ownership’s” preference, one candidate or another. Just like I don’t believe WalMart as a corporate entity should be able to, assuming it could or does.
And for the very simple reason that most, if not all, for-profit legal entities are not “political” in the “democratic” sense, unlike organized labor unions. For-profit legal entities are made of shareholders, boards of directors, officers, management and workers. All those groups are not permitted to “democratically” participate in the “political” agenda of that particular “commercial entity” so I believe there is a compelling argument that permitting such entities to nevertheless engage in “political speech” is not only not desirable but not “speech” and in particular not “political speech” but rather “commercial speech” which can and should be regulated and/or prohibited from engaging in and/or spending the entity’s money to engage in “political speech.”
“Property” (and that’s what a for-profit commercial entity is) doesn’t have human rights or human “politics” or even a human agenda. It has “commercial” incentives and a commercial agenda which is to make money. In fact with narrow exception that is the entire legally mandated purpose of most for-profit entities (and to shield the owners, directors and officers from legal liability–civil and criminal–for the acts the humans who constitute them engage in in the entity’s name).
And I believe that until the law understands this important distinction and the law changes, that “property” should be, as a normative matter (and someday as a legal matter) be prohibited from engaging in “political speech” if said “speech” isn’t democratically determined and agreed upon by the majority of the entity’s stakeholders (i.e. all shareholders, board members, officers, managers and workers).
I have no problem with commercial entities engaging in “commercial speech” for the transparent purpose of increasing its profits. That’s called advertising, marketing and sales. I have a huge problem with “commercial speech” masquerading as “political speech” which should only belong to human beings.
I know we probably disagree on this idea, because you likely believe it is impossible to draw meaningful coherent legal/regulatory distinctions between entities and the humans that animate them, or due to the very real difficulty in constructing laws that don’t inappropriately inhibit some real human beings free association rights and/or infringe the individuals that make up those associations freedom to engage in speech (and/or spend money to engage in that speech).
But I and others don’t think it is impossible to draw up a new regulatory scheme in that respect, only difficult. But I think until it is done, we’ll never have anything approaching “democracy” in America.
I think the second best “solution” to the money as part of political speech problem is that there must be full “transparency” in the funding of any entity or organization that engages in speech, and specifically “political speech”. There should be no such thing as “dark money” or PACs that aren’t required to report in real time every financial contribution, amount and the identity of the contributor, and where entity’s are “contributors” to another entity the full ownership and human identities of those financially contributing to the existence and activities of that entity, all the way down.
I think you’re mixing 2 issues: 1) Is money speech; 2) are corporations people? You may be addressing 2) (I think you are), but he was clearly addressing 1).
If you say that money isn’t speech, then how could you ever argue that the hypothetical law I proposed is unconstitutional? It doesn’t restrict speech, only the expenditure of money, so what clause would it violate?
As for this:
You realize your definition excludes unions, since not everyone’s contributions are voluntarily? Also, many union decisions – including what causes or candidates to endorse – arre made by executive boards and union officials, not by votes of members.
That’s why unions supported the Citizens United decision: they were extremely worried (with good reason) that any reasoning that says it’s constitutional to bar corporations from spending money on political races would also operate to bar them from doing so. It would also then be used to bar associations and corporations like the ACLU or Planned Parenthood from doing so on the ground that they, too, aren’t “people” and don’t meet your definition.
@ Glenn
I agree I could have been confused about what point he was actually making.
As far as “money = speech” goes I think it is the law that presently conflates and confuses the two, based on what I believe to be a misunderstanding of a meaningful distinction–“speech” is words, written or spoken, and demonstrative acts.
“Money” is a store of value (although it serves some other purposes) and not “speech” in any true sense of the word. What money does is to function as a megaphone (or a disseminator if you like) for any particular speech act.
And, in my opinion unfortunately, it is the law that has conflated this meaningful distinction to come to the implicit conclusion that the “right of speech” is two-fold: a) it belongs to both human beings and entities (when I believe it does not, cannot, and should not and was never intended to under the Constitution), and b) that both human beings and entities have a right to purchase and employ the largest megaphone they have the financial capacity to obtain to disseminate their speech acts as frequently and loudly as they choose with few if any restraints.
Again, I believe both conclusions/conflations are both wrong and anti-democratic. I believe the founders intended that human beings have the liberty to speak as their consciences dictated, particularly with regard to the powers, actions and duties of government without being subject to “prior restraint” of that speech by the government. Again, without “individual human beings” being subject to prior restraint. It wasn’t giant mass media conglomerates the founders were concerned about, but the individual human being (pamphleteer or writer) who engaged in political speech.
I do not believe the founders contemplated or intended that the only “factions” or “individuals” in society who would have the functional ability and/or capacity to effectively disseminate their “speech” widely would be limited to only the relatively richest individual citizens and commercial entities that existed as a subset of the citizenry. And I think to claim that is absurd in the absence of proof of that intent by the founders.
In fact, the idea that the capacity to freely disseminate speech belongs to the public generally and ordinary individual human beings as citizens, was precisely why the Post Office was created in the Constitution, and why “periodicals” have always been given historically a far cheaper rate of postage. It was, in part, to ensure that ordinary citizens (not just the richest individuals and entities), could access and disseminate information and knowledge as easily, cheaply and freely as possible.
George Washington:
Or Thomas Jefferson:
Or James Madison:
Again, my point being, if the “right of speech” is conflated with the idea of a “right to disseminate speech as loudly and broadly as one can afford”, via the use of unlimited sums of money, and without any checks on that functional capacity or ability, then the “right of speech” becomes a de facto “right” that only belongs to the relatively richest among our fellow citizens. Sure on paper it is a right all possess equally, but in reality it becomes something quite different.
Again, I think the advent of the internet is changing that reality in some ways back to something more egalitarian.
Nevertheless, I think we can agree that this conflation of the idea of the “right” is highly problematic and can end up being very undemocratic when it functionally permits only the relative richest entities and individuals in a nation to dominate and set the framing for “political speech”.
As a counterexample, many nations all over the Western world have enshrined in their Constitutions or other governing documents a “right to speech” and yet they nevertheless “regulate” in the interests of democracy any particular individual, association or factions ability to “freely” disseminate their “political speech” as they choose. From time limits on “electioneering” to the “medium” employed to period of time in which candidates and their surrogates can engage in electioneering political speech. Do you believe they don’t believe they possess the “right to free speech” or that somehow they are doing themselves a “democratic disservice” by engaging the above sorts of concrete limitations on political speech? I don’t but you may, so I’d be interested in why you think that.
And as an aside, of course I’m aware of organized labor’s concerns re: the Citizen’s United decision and the fact not all unions democratically decide which candidates or agendas they are going to support (that’s why I referred to the way unions engage in speech as both different and imperfect as a function of internal democratic decision making). And I also understand why unions, planned Planned Parenthood and the ACLU would have concerns. But those concerns are borne of the reality that as entities they are currently treated exactly the same as WalMart when, IMHO, they shouldn’t be as a normative and legal matter when it comes to “political speech”. Planned Parenthood and ACLU are not strictly speaking “commercial” entities engaged in profit maximization as a legal mandate. They are non-profits whose free association of donors and funders of same, are purposely organizing as individual human beings for the specific purpose of engaging in political speech and/or the provision of services non-for-profit–both speech related and otherwise.
But the concerns of all three could be ameliorated if there was a proper legal distinction enacted in law that differentiated “free associations” of individual human beings banding together and pooling their individual financial resources to engage in overtly political speech with things like entity funded “trade associations”. The latter is an entirely different activity, qualitatively, than legal fictions that are constituted solely for the purpose of “commerce” and as “liability shields” for shareholders, directors and officers, employing the financial resources of the entity (i.e. excess profit usually) that don’t belong to any of those human beings individually, and then engaging in overtly “political speech” without the free association or democratic decision-making capacity of all stakeholders–unlike Unions, unlike Planned Parenthood, unlike the ACLU.
Again, I don’t have a legal or moral problem with relative richer individuals (or the officers of corporations) banding together in free associations and funding same from their personal resources to engage in political speech. Because again, that is different, than for-profit commercial entities using corporate monies to advance commercial ends and calling it “political speech”. It isn’t, it is commercial speech calculated for commercial gain. I have no problem with individuals employing personal resources to advance what they see as their individual financial self-interest (from being able to advocate for laws the benefit some commercial entity they have a financial stake in to tax breaks for their individual assets), because that is “human beings” engaging in “political speech” by definition. Does the problem remain that the relatively rich will always have an enhanced ability by comparison to the average citizen to advocate more frequently, more broadly and more loudly than the average citizen–of course. But given the relatively small number of hyper-wealthy individuals in society by comparison to everyone else, that is less of a democratic risk than permitting both relatively wealthy individuals AND legal fictions, that are “property” by definition, to also possess the same rights and abilities as individual human beings.
And back to the Post Office, Internet, and the First Amendment. Now maybe my First Amendment history is rusty, but if you have links that the First Amendment speech and press (and to one degree or another free association) protections were contemplated and included in Constitution as a response to the problem in England of “prior restraint” then I’d be interested in seeing it. Point being, the First Amendment was created in a very different world.
I don’t think the founders contemplated, or could even envision, the effects on democracy and an informed citizenry, in a land of 300 million human beings, but where the “right to speech” effectively devolved into a de facto “right” and/or “capacity” to “speech” that only belonged to the relatively richest individuals and corporations (consolidated mass media enterprises or trade associations or hyper wealthy individuals as owners of mass media or trade associations).
Look, I guess my larger point is we all grouse about the pernicious influence of “too much money in politics” (whether that means corporate lobbying, media consolidation, for-profit “press”, campaign finance, . . . whatever). But if we don’t address what is in my humble opinion the “root conceptual or legal issue”, which is the problem that we conflate a “right” that should normatively and legally belong only to living breathing human beings (and their non-profit organizations funded with individual resources and functioning by approximations of democratic processes), and without countervailing meaningful limits on the frequency, breadth and volume with which the relative richer individuals and for-profit entities among us can disseminate political or commercial speech masquerading as political speech, then we shouldn’t have any expectation that we will ever solve any of the problems associated with the idea of “too much money in politics”. So long as we legally permit, or fail to draw meaningful legal distinctions between human beings and commercial entities, that money will find away to go over, around, behind and on top of and literally swamp and drown out all the possible other speech that needs to be heard. Presumably you understand this reality as you certainly would not argue that the only “valuable” and/or “important” “political speech” or ideas are those concocted and disseminated by the relatively richer individuals and entities among us, would you? Of course not. But that’s the problem. All the citizen driven not-for-profit advocacy in the country will never possess the financial resources to “compete” in the “market place of ideas” with the collective efforts of hyper rich individuals and amalgamations of capital with perpetual duration, and little if any human or “political” accountability to the citizenry.
That’s the problem as I see it. So I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree probably about the purpose of the First Amendment in the first instance, and how a “right” has come to mean something that I think it was not intended to mean, and belong to some it was not intended to belong to.
By the same token, it is why I have a problem with for-profit entities having the legal right to do such things as say–restrict the access to publically funded academic studies, or things like Westlaw, Nexis or PACER that restrict the public’s access to laws or court filings (not otherwise sealed). Because I believe that that information is so valuable to a well-functioning society, and that all of society pays for it directly and indirectly, that it should be a core government function that is kept out of the restricting and corrupting influences of profit-seeking.
Typo–should have read:
Equal Protection should take care of it. Hard to see it passing even rational basis test.
@Dan Smith – “Money is not speech” is exactly the argument that *should* be made against Citizens United. Allowing the two to be equated is so bogglingly unAmerican….
Anyway, if you consider how the case is made — that limiting campaign contributions infringes on free speech — then isn’t it also true that not having access to money likewise infringes on free speech? By not being able to purchase air time for my candidate of choice, my rights are being abrogated in much the same way.
root causation. Most problems we have today are because we lost the canary in the coalmine that was the centerpiece of the Declaration of Independence which identified the sacredness of the any one person.
Understand the flip. The u.s. has gone from the test for an individual as an individual to the test for a group than an individual is a member of. In more words, the supreme court now addresses group or collective behavior as the umbrella for any or all individuals. The consequence of this is oddly, that one must be a member of a group to have protection or rights. The hypocrisy of this and the irony of it is the USSC abortion of unions.
I think Bernie understands this. But what Bernie does not seem to have a clear vision of is that economics is a matter of RECIRCULATION more than it is of earning and saving. And what he is not emphasizing (at this time) is the need for public ownership of public resources.
Bernie met with the pope. I was not able to reach the pope about the new christian economic model (currently in detail design). It can be renamed. The current model established in 1913 is not fit for a democracy. The current model relies on “passing debts, loaning to create debts, increasing prices to increase profits, profiteering for accumulation and hording”. Pretty much everything bad that worked for a very short while until it hit the proverbial brick wall.
The CEM is new, unpublished, and will work well for a democracy and is a perfect fit for a SOCIAL CAPITALIST.
you may want to know more.
I would like to express my sincere gratitude for The Intercept’s election coverage.
I don’t think it will be enough to offset that shilling for Hillary Clinton currently being done by the New York Times, MSNBC and CNN, but it has been profoundly eye-opening to contrast their what-can-only-be-described-as propaganda with the coverage offered here.
Both for the contrast itself, but also for laying bare the conclusion that so many Americans are either inescapably or willfully ignorant.
I used to think Fox News watchers were the most intellectually impaired, morally challenged and thickest bubble inhabiting form of US citizen, but if you look at the comment threads of sites that shill for Hillary, like mediamatters, the corporate Democrat dupes are equally as bad.
I can not believe that there are that many true Hillary supporters that know how to use the internet. It is my belief the most of the pro Hillary comments are from people that are getting paid to post them.
thats what i see.
Corruption is a form of dishonest or unethical conduct by a person entrusted with authority, often for personal gain: why should anyone receive money to help them with their job application? Of course, if you give money, or favors, there will be a return, or you would not ‘give’ ! Macro-Ca$inoMan doth protest too much. Money is not speech, you donot pay your bills with it! Agreed, there is a problem if one camp gets tons of money and that doadvantages the other, esp in the GOP world of destroying the One-man-one-vote principal. Donot think we have terrible candidate choices, they reflect the USA and maybe a large percentage of the USA has become terrible– force us to look at ourselves. HClinton is the only one who does not do that and is thereby the worst choice, by shutting down discussion, involvement and possible progress. The safety and autonomy of the US rests more on the BIGBanks than anything else– even its military!
If, according to the Citizens United ruling, “money is speech” then I wonder why Hillary Clinton believes it is appropriate for her to come out against the BDS movement which Americans are currently “allowed” to join?:
http://www.politico.com/story/2015/07/hillary-clinton-letter-support-israel-donor-haim-saban-bds-119770
I wonder if, as president, Hillary Clinton would try to make it a CRIME for Americans to support the BDS movement?
John Kasich already came out and said at one of the earlier debates, “And no more PUBLIC criticizing of Israel!”
Americans have the right to protest by speech and absolutely have the right to promote a boycott just as they did march 24 1933.
Anyone elected person or public office holder who attempts to stop freedom of speech or punish those who exercise their right to boycott (right to not buy something) is a traitor to America and violates their oath of office.
These people should goto to syria and get a job with bashar al-assad. Or they should go to israel and work for the zionista controlled government there. They do not belong in America.
Mr. Greenwald
There is no question that Hillary Clinton is a hypocrite of the worst kind. At least some of her support is underpinned by a fear of a Republican Presidency if Bernie Sanders is nominated, but I think some of that support is eroding as the Republican party self implodes. Bernie is not out of the race yet, but he needs a wave of support from the remaining states.
“……..There were many reluctant defenders of that decision on free speech grounds — such as the ACLU, Eliot Spitzer, various unions, and myself — who argued that the solution to domination of corporate donations was not to vest the government with the power to restrict political speech (the case began when an advocacy group was barred from distributing an anti-Hillary film) but, instead, to institute a system of robust public financing to even the playing field, to disempower corporations by rendering their expenditures unnecessary……”
Rendering their expenditures “unnecessary” has nothing to do with free speech. Corporations represent the interests of ten of thousands of employees and shareholders so to shut corporations completely out of the process (for public financing) is squelching free speech. If corporations are overly influencing the process now, then having zero influence seems to be a poor trade-off. If I was a large corporation (or even a small one), I might lobby Congress against that possibility…….
Corporations are not people. Corporations speak to their interest in power and profits. Corporations are paperworked aliases for only their 5%+ shareholder groups that are solely held, not holding cells for collections of individuals. You have to understand the concept of ACTIVE INGREDIENTS to understand the differences that matter.
To deny such intracacies is to be a con or a thief who looks to rob the public. To deny such effects is to align oneself as an offshore pirate who may use mossack fonseca styled resources.
“……Corporations are not people…..”
But they represent the interests of people including their employees which have a large stake in in furthering the interests of the corporation.
it is a crime against democracy for the federal government, owned and operated by all persons equally, to consider or favor one group of people “over” another.
The pretense to address speech by conflating it with power is a criminal fraud and those justices who violated their oath of office should be asked to resign.
Corporations do not vote. E pluribus unum.
“…….The pretense to address speech by conflating it with power is a criminal fraud and those justices who violated their oath of office should be asked to resign……”
Scalia was racked with such guilt that he died. I am sure the other conservatives will follow suit…….
This doesn’t concern me so much. What concerns me is how all politicians including Trump fail to mention the real problems with solutions for them. Those problems are obvious & solutions are constitutionally based common sense. This is why someone is writing a book to explain these items. I am doing that in hopes people will sign the petition in order to get the president of 2017 & that future Congress to take action on multiple things from immigration which does not require a wall to expanding social programs with funding as founders demanded while cutting taxes and creating jobs at the same time. The answers are right in front of them but they dare not speak of them for a reason. They want to keep us in the dark but we can bring light to the topics on both sides.
Take protecting the borders; Trump wants a three trillion dollar wall which is what it costs to build and keep it up that neither Mexico nor Congress will pay for X amount of miles. I can protect every inch of US including lines of Mexico, Gulf of Mexico, Pacific, Atlantic, Canadian area & everything while creating jobs without a wall and at lower costs! Why don’t they mention that ability & how it’s done? It’s constitutional, lower cost and with the money I know we can save, we can pay for it without an additional dime in taxes.
We can fund important programs like SS, Disability & Welfare without raising taxes. Not abortions though. SS & Disability are a must. Welfare needs to be based on healthy who are able to work but are in hard times. Those in hard-times can get job training and find work with some help to get off Welfare but we are not doing the right job training so people either stay on Welfare or they end on the streets. We can end that.
What’s going on both sides with corruption, crazy delegate process or banks or other things per money to get elected is another topic that can be solved after we solve urgent things first if we work together from all sides. I’m Independent but I know Republicans & Democrats want mostly the same things for a great nation. Post WW2 & during, each side worked together. We must get in that mindset again or we stay divided and things decline for all.
israel has a wall.
“israel has a wall.”
… And there was peace across the land.
china has a wall.
i have nothing against walls. i don’t particularly like them, and i’d rather not need them. but the u.s. is in a fix. There are 250,000,000 people south of our border in poverty. “houton….”
The democrats have become sheeple……
I guess this Democrat should thank his fellow Democrats who are supporting Hillary Clinton (I’m being sarcastic), so she continue promoting oligarchs and oligarchical power. In her career, she has taken money from prison lobbyists, big oil, Wall Street. She won’t release the transcripts of her speeches. She claimed falsely she was under sniper fire in Bosnia. She keeps changing her positions. She has been close to the Waltons (Walmart) and was against $15 until one of her New York allies supported it. Come on, America. Come on, my fellow Democrats. Come on, New York. Feel the Berne like this Democrat.
i don’t know if her position as jib is better than mainsail but hoisting her is a sure fire victory for America’s Cup.
Brilliant piece Glenn, once again exposing the hypocrisy that permeates the political class and culture.
Where to begin? Well, how about with the close: “There is literally no principle, no belief, immune from being dispensed with the minute they think doing so helps empower their leaders.”
Wrong. There are, in fact, “literally” an infinite number of beliefs and principles that HRC supporters will not dispense with. Take something outlandish, like planning to detonate explosives at the Republican convention. Wiping out the opposition would certainly redound to the power of Democratic leaders, but of course mainline Democrats would find the idea repulsive, as it would “dispense” with many of our deeply held beliefs and principles.
Or, something more reasonable, mainline democrats would never support a candidate like Trump, because supporting Trump would “dispense” with our principles of opposing bigotry, and our belief that the White House is no place for a moron.
I could go on and on, but the point is made (and I have to get back to work).
Greenwald fills his screed with his usual high-decibel, anger-driven charges and empty accusations. But, as you can see, his fever pitch peaks at a conclusion that is logically and quite clearly nonsensical.
Hillary and Bill Clinton are VERY close friends with Jamie Dimond. One has to wonder how a brokerage like Goldman Sachs could have earned so much money during the financial crisis while everyone was seemingly bleeding.
For one, there’s not a riskier way to make money than in the market. No securities are protected so people can lose their fortunes as they did during the crisis. Most notably Goldman Sachs appeared to be unscathed?
Perhaps Hillary Clinton can relax in complete confidence knowing her best friends are the truly richest and most powerful people in the world.
What people must realize is that she as a person has nothing in common with the average democrat voter. She has never struggled like her supporters.
No matter what, people like the Clintons will make money in hard times like their friends do as Goldman Sachs.
between Bernie and Hillary i cannot understand what it is that supporters of Hillary are hanging onto and not seeing in Bernie. Bernie stands for the foundation of America upon which everyone stands and is broken. Hillary stands to success in the winds which blow like autumn breezes but also bring frostbite rain and heat.
Surely the Hillary supporters suffer from stockholm syndrome but in the face of Bernie, one would think they would smell the coffee. Then again, some people are masochists.
Dimond is the CEC (Chief Executive Criminal) at Chase. You are perhaps confusing him with Lloyd Blankfein, his counterpart in crime at Goldman? An admittedly easy mistake to make. If you’ve seen one arch-criminal monster, you’ve seen them all….
1) Since you also argue that spending is speech (immediately preceding the blockquoted passage above), you are saying forced speech can counter free speech. Seems irrefutable to me.
2) Corporations don’t make decisions, the (evil!!! rich) people running them do. Under your proposal, the people running the government will decide how this money is allocated rather than the people paying the taxes. You are begging the question of how to eradicate corruption from expensive political campaigns by simply replacing corporate executives with politicians. Incumbents will have more direct power, and I’m unsure what definition of “corruption” must be employed to claim that such a proposal will reduce such a thing.
3) This also relates to the blockquote below: Implicit in your take on this issue is that the money buying the politicians is the corrupting influence, but I contend that the corrupting influence is that the politicians have something to sell. This is why the common understanding of “increased regulation” is counterproductive — the more the allocation of wealth runs through D.C., the more politicians will be purchased. You are attacking a superficial observation — corporations give millions and billions to politicians — without even making an effort to explain why corporations (or rather the people running them) would do such a thing. It’s the best investment an executive can make, as we all know.
I am not a Clinton supporter but she is my first choice among the four terrible choices we have (Clinton, Sanders, Cruz, and Trump). The donations influence decision-making, and so are corrupting, yes. But a corrupt Clinton is still better than the alternatives. You are asking the wrong question that only applies to the most dim-witted Clinton apologists. Clinton is better than Trump is better than Cruz is better than Sanders, Wall Street donations having been duly considered.
So you believe the externality of “political corruption” is more counterproductive to the public wellbeing than the “externalities” created by corporate entities operating in an environment of lesser or zero regulation? If not please explain the meaning of your the blockquoted passage, if willing. Thanks.
I’m 90% sure I understand your question — let me know if my answer implies I do not.
Externalities imposed by firms can be adjudicated and compensated for in court. This is not a perfect solution, granted, but it beats the alternatives. Regulators can give permission to impose externalities just as easily as they can forbid such things and are also subject to capture. So are judges, but for reasons I’m sure you’re familiar with, it is less likely. We can argue about that, but I’m not sure where you stand, so I won’t waste your time trying to convince you of something you might already believe. To clarify, I am not arguing the so-called Coase theorem is the be-all-end-all perfect solution, I’m just asserting that he was on to the best solution we currently have to deal with externalities in an imperfect world. In terms of a straightforward answer to your question as I understand it, with lots of omitted caveats, I would say “Yes,” if corporations can be brought to heel in court but the government cannot be, which I more-or-less believe (again, with omitted caveats for the sake of a semblance of brevity).
What I had in mind in the blockquoted passage is that empowering politicians to “regulate” banks creates rents to seek, so to speak, and that a blanket call to “increase regulation” can and will simply further entrench the wall street oligarchs by handing them more indirect power over their own markets via their ownership of politicians. The terms “regulation” and “deregulation” can mean all sorts of different things, but what matters is the content and consequences of legislation rather than its volume or its intent. Effectively regulated banks that committed fraud, took ridiculous risks, etc. over the past two decades would have gone bankrupt and their executives would have gone to jail under what I propose — regulation by their customers, investors, and courts operating under British common law-type contract enforcement precedents. For instance, the oft-mentioned position of the rating agencies in these giant frauds was not a result of anything but clearly worded SEC “regulations” that granted them an oligopoly and specified that they were to be paid by banks instead of investors. The SEC counts as a “regulator” but, under the influence of wall street, created that system and managed to hand entire pension funds owned by schoolteachers and firefighters to 20-something bankers selling them loans the bankers knew would default (I am referencing myself at the time — yes I feel bad about it.).
@ Macroman
Without starting a big fight, I’ll just say we’ll have to agree to disagree. I think you fundamentally misapprehend and overestimate the capacity of the legal system to function as an “effective” and “efficient” — “regulator” for lack of a better word.
Moreover I think you are setting up a straw man argument as I know of no human being who makes a “blanket call for increased regulation”. What people do make a “blanket call” for is that “regulation” be effective, efficient and evenly applied. And as humans we will always have “political economy” disputes about which regulations and what means to enforce them strike the most effective and efficient balance without “over” or “under” regulating any particular human endeavor.
That is also not to say that I agree with you that all regulation creates regulators who are “rent-seekers” as that terms is commonly understood in economics.
There is a meaningful distinction between “effective”, “efficient” and “independent” regulators and regulation that has a very important function and creates value to our society that cannot be subsumed within the “system of justice”. The “system of justice” is a very blunt, time consuming, inefficient tool in many ways that lacks “expertise” in so many human endeavors that it would be impossible to list in 20 comment blocks. And anyone who is intimately related with that system, understands that reality. That is the very reason much of humanity’s “regulatory systems” exist outside the bounds of the “court system” and why the libertarian argument that the “court system” is a viable alternative to the administrative regulatory system is quite baseless if not silly.
What I would agree with you on is the fact, unfortunately and for many reasons, that regulators and regulations have been “captured” by the objects of that regulation. I do not agree that is the necessary consequence of a regulatory milieu–politically, legally or socially. It is a function of the political and regulatory class permitting themselves, via the very laws they write and enforce (i.e the political economy choices they make), to be corrupted and to permit corruption. That is an individual human failing if not a “class” failing.
I worked for the federal government in various capacities over 15 years and never enriched myself personally from those efforts other than the hourly wage or salary I drew to enforce the rules and regulations that government my behavior and those of the objects of the rules and regulations I was tasked with enforcing. And most civil/public servants conduct themselves similarly. It is, generally speaking in my experience, only those who see civil/public service as a means to a “personal end” of self-enrichment that corrupt and/or are corrupted by the systems in place to regulate or human interactions.
sorry for typos–“that governed” not “that government” and “regulate our human interactions” not “regulate or human interactions.”
Don’t know why you are putting “efficient” in quotes since I never said it — my answer did not rely on the concept of efficiency whatsoever.
As far as me creating a strawman, Sanders, Warren, some of my colleagues and students, and on and on have made that call. That said, I can’t speak to the human beings you’ve seen and heard, so we’re fine there.
The rent seekers are the lobbyists and their employers not the regulators themselves.
On to the third-to-last paragraph: You are making a bunch of assertions and not an argument. Besides you know I already know you think this bit, and you know what I think in this regard. I’ll defer to you in general regarding realistic evaluations of the legal system; I’ll just say that “inefficient” in this context as I understand your use of it is a relative and not an absolute measure. Voltaire’s distinction between the best of possible worlds and the best possible world is relevant here.
Response to last two paragraphs: John Adams: “There is danger from all men. The only maxim of a free government ought to be to trust no man living with power to endanger the public liberty.”
Appreciate the convo, as always.
Rereading it, I don’t think you (rrheard) meant
as a direct quote, so you can ignore that bit.
For some reason I pity your students.
At least your colleagues are getting paid …
I often use quotes to illustrate a nebulous or as yet undefined idea or term [or to add emphasis or sarcasm] not necessarily to be directly quoting my interlocutor. Fairly common convention on the interwebs. Didn’t mean to imply I was quoting you directly.
But “efficiency” is implicit in your assertion that the court system would be “better” than the existing regulatory scheme. Which I disagree with and which you haven’t come close to supporting as either a premise or valid argument. Moreover, that it is axiomatic in human endeavors that systems can, will be and have been corrupted/corruptible, is not to argue that all human systems under all circumstances will necessarily be so. And to the degree that they are or have been corrupted/corruptible, including the court system, is simply a function of human beings being corrupted/corruptible. You change the (dis)incentives, in both the regulatory and court systems, to individuals permitting corruption/corruptability you increase the likelihood that those systems run more effectively and efficiently as designed in the theoretical. Again, that is not to discount the very real and important normative political economy question of what is the “efficient” and/or “effective” balance to be struck between competing interests (however defined) and over and under regulation of any given activity. No one I know of has ever argued “more regulation in all situations and under all circumstances” (i.e. “blanket”) is normatively desirable in economic terms or any other. It’s just a straw man.
As far as “efficiency” in the political economy context goes I’d agree its always a relative term and never an absolute one. To be precise I believe it is both contextual and relative term. Yet presumably many of the economic models you teach and believe reflect reality treat it as the latter. And that’s highly problematic. From a nominally “efficient” action or decision creating externalities that are not born by the parties responsible for creating them, to the inability or unwillingness of the producer of that externality to properly “internalize” those externalities into the price of the good or service being provided to a consumer of same, is to render the idea of “efficiency” in economic terms useless.
Look how can you even begin to discuss the idea of “efficiency” (or concepts of supply and demand, elasticity of demand, accurate pricing as a signaling mechanism in markets, labor or environmental policy, property rights etc. etc.) in economics if you can’t concede the reality that externalities exist and aren’t properly accounted for and dealt with in most models of “capitalistic” economic endeavors? It’s the elephant in the room that undermines almost all economic models. Much less the concept of the proper definition and consistent application of the idea of “value” which is about the most subjective idea known to mankind, and just like “reasonable” is in the legal context. Difference being in my line of work we concede this reality, that “reasonableness” is contextual and relative in all circumstances, and unique to what any particular trier of “fact” decides “reasonable” is on any given day within a set of fairly nebulous legal boundaries giving judges discretion and power to overrule a trier of facts determinations with regard to what is or is not “reasonable”. But even most judges concede that is simply superseding another’s judgment rather than some absolute derivation of the truth regarding the “reasonableness” of some act or another, and/or that their judgment is better or right or wrong. Judges do it in narrow circumstances because they can, and when they do it is because to do so comports with their subjective conception of “justice” (or their obligations under law) which happened to differ with the trier of fact’s determination.
Just sayin’. Of course you and I will probably always agree to disagree on most of this stuff, if not flat out think the other guy is ignorant or full of shit at times, but it is no less interesting for me to hear your thoughts on these topics because I think these topics are among the most consequential to the human condition.
On the quoting, I realized after posting I was probably misreading you.
OK, fair enough.
Granted. This is a dissertation-length argument to make, as you know. As a brief sketch, since I think the industrial revolution/free market capitalism was the important poverty-reducing event(s) in history, I would argue that precedent-based equality-before-the-law (albeit only for propertied men, as practiced) jurisprudence was/is key to economic improvement. We’ll leave it there for now, I have a meeting in 10, apologies.
More or less agree with everything until the models bit. First, I don’t “believe” they reflect reality and not many (though some) professional economists do — you slightly misunderstand what models are used for. They are used to trace the logical implications of assumptions. Positivism in econ takes it further that the test of a model is its ability to predict (which they conflate with “explain”) events, but this approach is falling out of favor except with monetary macroeconomists — because our job depends on pretending to see the future, frankly. I am a monetary macroeconomist but an iconoclast in this respect. I do concede externalities exist and are imperfectly dealt with (and always will be). With the model points above standing, I again basically agree with the rest of your comment. We’re not as far apart as we think, perhaps. Wish I had time for more, but now I have a meeting in 2.
@ Macroman
Appreciate the dialogue. Good luck with your meeting.
Macroman, the resident free-market economist, equally loyal to the neoconservatives and the neoliberals, both of whom serve Wall Street and international financial interests first and foremost, declares his support for Hillary Clinton. Included is a tortured argument for more deregulation of everything. Why is this not a surprise?
A better name for Macroman would be Casinoman, because that’s how Wall Street actually operates – and in every casino in Las Vegas, the ultimate winner is always the house. Who is the house in Wall Street? Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, Blackstone, Barclays, etc.
Just as with casinos, a lot of dirty money flows into the Wall Street system, and there it gets laundered – the free market global deals facilitate this movement. Shady money flows into offshore tax havens, circles around a while, then moves into Delaware and Nevada shell corporations, then funnels through Wall Street into secure havens like US Treasury bonds. That’s the big casino game. It’s no different from taking much smaller amounts to Las Vegas – $1000 in dirty money converted to chips, gamble for a while, lose 20-30% of the total, come out with say $750 in laundered money. All facilitated by the deregulated system.
The truth is, free market capitalist economists like Casinoman are among the most dishonest and fraudulent academics in the United States. Their ‘econometric models’ have been utter failures, time and time again – they predicted NAFTA would increase domestic American jobs and wages (look at Detroit today), they predicted electricity deregulation would lower rates (look at California 2001), they predicted Wall Street deregulation would be great for the American economy (look at the 2008 crash), now they predict TPP will be some wonder deal – they’re liars who construct false narratives for their corporate sponsors and hide in the business departments of American academic institutions because real academics would laugh them out of the room anywhere else.
So go on spewing your BS, Casinoman – you’re providing an educational opportunity.
“A better name for Macroman would be Casinoman”
Or maybe Voodooman …
He really is a clown with his mobile goalposts.
Clever!
You succeeded in writing 4+ paragraphs without making a single argument. Since I therefore have nothing to respond to directly, I’ll simply provide some constructive criticisms so that you can hope to provide an accurate ad hominem screed next time. I won’t keep my fingers crossed that it’ll be at all funny, though. With you and nuf said, I can only long for a wittier troll.
True: I’m a “free market” economist.
False: I’m loyal to neoliberalism, neoconservatism, support Hillary Clinton (you might want to reread my original comment — slowly this time — “I am not a Clinton supporter.” — pretty clear!), support or advocate for existing wall street firms, support “deregulation” if that term means anything (it doesn’t) or provide an argument for it in my original comment, engage in “dishonest and fraudulent” research, work on econometric models; I predicted or argued that NAFTA, TPP, etc. would lead to good outcomes, have been disrespected by “real academics” or sponsored by any corporation other than my employer.
I’ll patiently await your apology…
What matters in academia is what the academy thinks. My hunch is that you’re not part of the academy and that you some sort of grudge against it. It probably goes back to your college days when your professor pointed out that what was on the page and what you understood were rarely the same thing. Totally his fault, though, not yours. You are epitome of virtue, intelligence, and reason, as your comment amply demonstrates. See you next time!
Here’s the argument, Casinoman:
Free market economic models are nonsense, as evidenced by their multiple failures in the three cited cases : NAFTA and domestic job creation, electricity deregulation and the effect on electricity rates, Wall Street deregulation and the effect on financial stability.
Surely you can respond to those arguments? I’ve asked you about those specific examples before; you refuse to respond to them. Why not start with the results of electricity deregulation on electricity markets, for example? Nothing to say? Glass-Steagall, you must have supported getting rid of that. What was the effect on financial stability, i.e the 2008 crash?
Your ‘free-market econometric models’ are obviously a bad joke; if climate scientist’s models from the 1980s had been so woefully incorrect about the trajectory of global warming, or if an airplane designer’s models of wing performance had resulted in massive failures, they’d have lost their jobs the academic and corporate worlds – but free market economists just keep on getting funding from billionaire’s private foundations, because they serve the ideology.
Now if that isn’t an exact analogy of how Trofim Lysenko, the Soviet agronomist, maintained his position in the Soviet system for many decades by sucking up to the Soviet Central Committee, despite his multiple failures to improve agricultural production, then what is?
I lol-ed twice over and almost stopped. To be fair, you subsequently make an actual argument. I’m not sure what “free market economic models” you are referring to, and since a key part of free markets is embracing innovation (we have proofs showing true discovery cannot be modeled) and individual, subjective preferences (which, again, cannot be modeled), the general theme of my response will be that you don’t know enough about what you’re talking about to engage in a productive discussion about it, with all due respect to the person calling me “Casinoman” who can’t even explain correctly how one would launder money in a casino.
The only thing NAFTA has to do with free trade is the title. If it were an actual free trade agreement, it be about a page long to allow space for the signatures. The electricity market in CA wasn’t “deregulated” so much as handed over to Enron to engage in fraud at will. Not quite “free market.” Wall Street wasn’t “deregulated” but rather “reregulated” in favor of banks; again, not free market. The Greamm-Leach-Bliley Act (Glass-Steagall repeal) was passed when I was a sophomore in high school. I cared about beer and women, exclusively, and therefore did not support the law. As far as your “deregulation”–>financial crash claims, (i) we disagree on what “deregulation” means and (ii) post hoc ergo propter hoc. That said, we can agree in general that the existing regulatory framework was a key causal factor, though the Tax Reform Act of 1986 was the most crucial bit (not GLB).
“Bad joke…” blah blah blah. The climate models from the 1980s were every bit as wrong as economic models are about the trajectory of global warming. Surely you know this. You can quit attacking the claim that econ models are good/predictive/useful and note that I never made that argument. You are beating a dead straw horse, to mix metaphors. The current position of powerful bankers and economists is directly analogous to Lysenko, yes.
Macroman ? photosymbiosis
Apr. 14 2016, 1:26 p.m. – “You succeeded in writing 4+ paragraphs without making a single argument.”
Is Macroman a pompous idiot? Because there were plenty of arguments in that post.
The paragraph beginning with the words “The truth is, free markets….” constitutes a cohesive argument, under any credible definition of the word argument. The paragraph comes with claims and supports.
Why try this feeble pose? Macroman should make a counterargument instead of trying to claim no argument exists in the first place. Question the claim, or question the support. Macroman just looks stupid right now.
Uhhhh, Mr. Perry, what is the difference between the three concepts: (i) ad hominen, (ii) assertion, and (iii) argument?
This question is rhetorical. I can tell by your comment that this is exactly the question you could never answer. But you totally hurt my feelings, though, meaney.
none of them are relevant to your post:
iv) non sequitur
We’re talking about photosymbillshit’s post.
v) red herring
“I am not a Clinton supporter but…”
But of COURSE you aren’t.
The electorate has never had it so good. You want variety? You get to choose between a corporate shill, an idealist, a religious nut and a megalomaniac. Taken together, they form a perfect mirror of US society. Democracy doesn’t get any more representative than that!
” But a corrupt Clinton is still better than the alternatives. ”
surely you jest.
“The climate models from the 1980s were every bit as wrong as economic models are about the trajectory of global warming. Surely you know this.”
Is this really what the Koch school at George Mason University is teaching these days? The climate model predictions of the 1980s were relatively accurate, given uncertainties (like the Pinatubo volcanic eruption); they got most things right, such as a rapidly warming Arctic, ocean warming, rising land temperatures, etc.
In contrast, the economic models of free-market economists repeatedly predicted the exact opposite of what actually took place – as if climate models had predicted a descent into global cooling.
Free-market economists as you should know claimed to have put economics on a ‘sound mathematical foundation’ with ‘theorems’ – which is a ridiculous claim, a futile effort to sound ‘scientific.’ Economics is no more a ‘mathematical science’ than politics is; and while any student of politics can reasonably predict that unlimited campaign donations from oligarchs tends to undermine democracy (based on a general understanding of human behavior) no politician tries to write a mathematical model to predict the outcome of the next election, that would be ridiculous.
This is a good one, too:
“. . . since I think the industrial revolution/free market capitalism was the important poverty-reducing event(s) in history. . .”
All that shows is that you are ignorant of the industrial revolution, which was characterized by massive protectionism in the United States including high tariffs on the import of manufactured goods, all so that American companies would not be destroyed by cheap foreign competition. It’s a historical fact that every advanced industrial nation from England to present-day China grew their industrial base with the aid of various forms of protectionism and state industrial policy, not by ‘free-market capitalism.’ Capitalism yes, free-market, no. Highly regulated markets were the reality.
The only reason those ‘free-market ideals’ you adhere to were ever promoted within the U.S. academic system was because they served the interests of Wall Street; a good example is the deregulation of western U.S. electricity markets c.2000, which allowed Enron, Dynegy etc. to game those markets, driving up electricity rates, which did huge amounts of damage to local economies – all despite the earnest predictions of free-market economists that the opposite would happen.
In reality, free-market economists should all be given the boot from academia and sent off to find jobs in the private sector – their genius and talents would make them all instant millionaires, if they could just find the right sucker to con.
oops barabbas, that was supposed to be a response to macroman.
No idea.
Which models? Is there a source I can look at that would be banned if the evil Kochs had there way you’d be so kind as to share? I’ve looked at many of the models that my Koch blinders allow me to and hence don’t believe you.
Did you even read my comment or are you just repeating yourself to the wall? (Rhetorical.) Aren’t we in a cooling cycle according to the raw data or is it just that I’m sitting on Charles Koch’s lap right now? Again, your Koch-proof source would come in handy here.
Your next paragraph (“Free market economists….ridiculous.”) again leads me to believe that you didn’t read my response but simply wish to repeat yourself without even bothering to get an idea of what your audience/opponent even thinks first. Your intellect and intellectual integrity are as mythical as the “free market models” you keep telling me about.
A point! Let’s grant your view for the sake of argument. Where did the industrial revolution begin? What happened to mercantilist policies just prior to that? Haven’t many societies had protectionist policies? Did all of those societies experience industrialization? If protectionism caused industrialization, why was the one society among many around the world with protectionist policies that liberalized the one that was the first to industrialize? When did the U.S. enter the industrial revolution? What happened to tariff levels just before that? If tariffs and other protections caused industrialization, why did it occur in the U.S. when it did? Wouldn’t it have occurred in the most protectionist period, just prior to the Civil War? Wouldn’t the Smoot-Hawley tariff of 1930 had the opposite effect that it did?
I can’t bring myself to respond to the second-to-last paragraph. I’m sure you wouldn’t read it anyway.
I work in academia, in the private sector. I used to be an investment banker, which is why I’m rich. If I wanted to be richer, I’d go back to Wall Street. I did indeed have no shortage of suckers to con. Suckers like you prefer to be conned than argued with. Its much easier to say, “Great point — got your pension!” than it is to try speak reason to people like you (unthinking virtue-signalers that never have any idea what they’re talking about because they’re too lazy and incompetent to read a comment online much less a book). So send me the source, respond to me (not to the scrooge mcduck character that’s just the imaginary voice in your head), and skip the ad hominem (or at least make it funny and not so monotonously redundant and false), or I’ll just ignore you from now on.
Please show your Party ID before voting
I also think the democratic party’s primary process has dispelled any illusions that the democratic party was opposed to voter disenfranchisement. The primary is designed to dilute, dissuade and deter individual voters. And does anyone have any doubt that these rules affect the poor, powerless and minorities more than anyone else?
I want to echo TallyHoGazehound’s point about things being made clear. I am slowly starting to believe that the best arguments aren’t necessarily the ones that persuade, but the arguments that create clarity. Not the elimination of gray, but the elimination of fog and smoke.
Before the internet I had cabinets of articles, papers and books to remind me of the things I would soon forget. Tatoos and mementos to break through the recurring fog of morning–because without memory there is no such thing as a lie.
Morality is the memory of the soul.
Those that argue the ends not the means–and even then out of both side of their mouth–are not assuming the public lacks memory, but lacks morality.
Partisans, like pickup artists lying about love to get laid, treat morality as a prop to manipulate others. This is an Evil that stands above good and evil.
The forgetfulness of insincerity.
Truly lies rely on ignorance and forgetting. You are onto something. That something is what can save people from falling for the liars. That something should not require a history that can be re-written or removed. That something is a truth of what is wanted.
I detected this “onto something” in your statement –
” the best arguments aren’t necessarily the ones that persuade, but the arguments that create clarity”.
best?
correction… my poor word choice. plz replace ‘detected’ with ‘sensed’. tyia
“If you can’t take their money, drink their booze, eat their food, screw their women and vote against them, you don’t belong here.” — Jesse Unruh
“Money can’t buy love, but it can buy a handjob.”
In other words, the only reason you can “screw their women” is because those women are being paid. The fantasy of the prostitute that falls in love with you is just a very lonely man’s very lonely dream.
Not that I oppose prostitution–at all, but if you are trying to argue that money doesn’t get people to do things they would normally not do–you should probably leave the hookers at home.
Maybe that quote is a really just call for our ruling class to be so rich they have no reason to offer a happy ending to anyone not attractive enough actually deserve it.
@ Gator90
But implicit in Unruh’s statement is that should you vote against them they will continue to give you money. That isn’t true of Planned Parenthood anymore than it is true of the NRA. Or alternative, consider the big banks. They give money to both sides to ensure nobody votes against them, and for the most part that strategy is successful because politicians don’t usually “take their money, drink their booze, eat their food, screw their men/women and then vote against them.” The instances of that actually happening are so far and few between that the statement basically amounts to democratic party propaganda for the dolts who want to believe Democratic Party members cannot be bought when somewhere between 75-100% are in one sense or another.
So he’s basically creating a strawman reality or propaganda regarding the environment in which politicians actually operate in America.
But they will – that’s the beauty of the system. As a politician you simply say, “Look, the other side gave me a little more. I had no choice but to vote against you. But I’m sure you can do better next time!”
As long as you can get re-elected, they will continue to do business with you. It’s not personal.
It is actually very simple:
Notwithstanding that Brandeis was an ardent Zionist he was smart enough to understand some simple universal truths:
It is interesting to me how those simple truths are so easily subsumed in what I perceive to be a paradox Brandeis’ words created (though it is not necessarily a paradox in the strict sense depending on what he meant by the ‘logic of realities':
If our present perception of the “logic of reality” prevents our willingness to shape and create our “reality” prospectively rather than be slaves to our present perceptions of it, then almost nothing would be possible.
Nothing wrong with recognizing or trying to understand the world as it exists today, but our acceptance of the “logic of the realities” of the present, is precisely what prevents us from doing what others believe to be impossible.
Maybe George Clinton said it best “free your mind and your ass will follow”.
Bob Dylan would add:
“Don’t follow leaders / Watch the parkin’ meters. . . / Look out kid / They keep it all hid / Better jump down a manhole / Light yourself a candle. . .”
Or maybe Joe Strummer & the Clash. . .
“You have the right to free /Speech as long as you’re not /Dumb enough to actually try it.”
It certainly wasn’t Hillary…
@TallyHoGazeHound
Dittto on our boomer cohort. But just to inject some hope I point to a recent analysis by H.A. Goodman: Bernie Sanders Will Become Democratic Nominee Even If Clinton Leads in Delegates. Goodman makes a strong case that the DNC is going to have to do as it did with Obama in ’08, and pressure superdelegates away from Hillary in order to save the party.
One might say this is all wishful thinking, but Goodman turned out to be prescient when he wrote on 9/1/15 that Sanders was going to surge into a huge challenge to Hillary, and set forth the reasons why. (His recent views, however, on a likely indictment over the emails/server, and his predicted consequences if there isn’t one, are less persuasive to me.)
Goodman argues that the party has moved leftward with Bernie, and the DNC either goes with it or loses power. Additionally, he points out that the more people see and hear Bernie, and the more they see and Hear Hillary and Bill, the better it gets for Bernie. Let’s hope so.
Mona
I don’t think the DNC cares. So long as the GOP can’t field a viable candidate for President, they are probably convinced, and rightly so, that enough nominal liberals and progressives will vote for them no matter what they say or do in fear of the “horrors” that would ensue should the GOP capture all three branches of government.
And they are likely right in their assessment of the public. If someone like Hillary Clinton can be the standard bearer of “liberalism” then the word has lost all its meaning and any ideology such a label may at one time have represented has become so malleable as to be meaningless. Anybody who thinks they are ‘left, liberal and/or progressive,” AND that Hillary Clinton represents those values or ideology, is both misinformed as to her personal and professional history. She is a conservative neoliberal centrist by nature, experience, education and personal and professional history. It is quite fair to say she will perpetuate Pres. Obama’s legacy with a little more militarism if elected. If you are fine with the totality of Pres. Obama’s policy legacy then you won’t have any problem with voting for Hillary Clinton. I just think that people like Scott Lemieux and others shouldn’t conflate that “socially liberal” economically “neoliberal” center-right policy orientation represented by Clinton and Obama as some sort of normative argument about what it is to be liberal/left/progressive.
I mean I think you’ve lambasted me here in the last couple of months for not buying into the idea that Trump is the next Mussolini, and I must vote accordingly. I don’t buy that argument and never have and will be voting my conscience and for what I want, not what I fear.
My guess is you will too, ultimately.
I don’t think so, at all. Even Democratic strategists are publicly fretting about Hillary’s abysmal approval ratings: “Voters see her as the ultimate politician, who will do or say anything to get elected.” Moreover:
Especially with more primaries ahead in states good for Sanders, he is only “losing” if Hillary retains enough superdelgates. Perhaps most importantly — and as the party apparatchiks know — some 30% of Bernie voters vow they will never turn out for Hillary.
I expect a lot of them are doing the math and thinking thoughts.
Fair enough. We’ll just have to agree to disagree. If there is any group of “strategists” more adept at snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, or wrong-headed thinking, it would be the strategic “braintrust” of the national Democratic Party. They could run openly and transparently on the preservation and expansion of FDR’s legacy (which is precisely what the “radical revolutionary” Bernie Sanders is doing) and control all three branches of government into perpetuity assuming their own administrative corruption didn’t do them in. But they choose not to and there are reasons for those choices.
I honestly don’t think they give a shit if they are in “power” or not. The revolving door of American politics means that they are in positions of “power” and individual “success” regardless of whether they nominally control the levers of power directly by being in the majority or not.
Personally I think the entire enterprise is a charade. The entire national Democratic Party apparatus is a calculated enterprise to create the illusion of meaningful policy differences for the mass electorate’s consumption. That is not to say there aren’t “meaningful” distinctions between the national GOP and national Democratic Party apparatus and policy orientation. But I believe on the “big issues” (economy, foreign policy–trade, militarism) they are so close collectively (with obvious dissenters on both sides of aisle) that there is no meaningful choice.
We can organize and agitate until the cows come home to preserve a women’s right to make her own reproductive choices, to improve voting processes and rights, expand LGBT rights, less police violence et al., and again that is not so say those things aren’t meaningful and significant to those who are most directly affected by those issues. And that is not to say that affecting change in those policy arenas is not valuable or important.
But all the equal rights in the world on paper (or even in social reality) doesn’t amount to a bucket of shit if 90% of the American population is mired in poverty, debt, and equal lack of economic opportunity. It’ll just mean we all have a right to be treated equally before the law while getting fucked by the prevailing economic system and status quo.
The thing is, the Democratic Party elite, and “strategist” courtiers of same, don’t have to worry about that future so long as the campaign finance system chugs along as it does at present, because they will be the very last to have it directly affect their personal economic wellbeing–in or out of “power”. They are detached from the reality of the vast majority of Americans, because they aren’t a part of that “reality”.
There is no viable “democracy” in America so long as “democracy” is dependent upon money. Same can be said of the US “system of justice”. I just don’t have any illusions about that or that anybody in the Democratic Party apparatus (at least the elites and their courtiers) gives a flying fig about meaningfully changing the status quo because it is the very source of their power, access and personal financial success.
Superb statement of the facts we must deal with. I believe the DeMs are doomed because they will steal it from Sanders and his followers will move to the Green Party.
The only question becomes: will Bernie turn out for Hillary, as he says he would, if she “wins”? His doing so may drag a whole raft of people who did not want to vote for her, to do just that, continuing to follow him, on his say-so. This is worrisome. He actually has quite a backing, and thus holds power even within the thrice-execrable party, and should never have given his word to automatically back Clinton, if the party, as its it’s wont and intention, anoints her. The fact that he has done so, especially this early on, for someone whose policies he claims are so distant and distinct from his, is very disturbing.
InshAllah!
Jesus fucking Christ the self-serving, craven hypocrisy.
I believe you wrote, Glenn, a few years back, that when the right is in power they float or make provisional or de facto reprehensible policies, and the Dems make noise about it, but then when they are in power they have a habit of consolidating or legitimizing such policies.
RE: Your last sentence, you wrote “…Democrats have repeatedly proven, there is literally no principle…”
You used literally, when I’m sure you meant… uh…
Y’know, you’re right!
Have you enjoyed a grilled cheese yet?
I think Tuesday was National Grilled Cheese Sandwich Day. Of course doesn’t mean you can’t have one on whatever day you like.
I do! I posted a photo of a delicious melty grilled cheese on twitter while bamage was fasting. He soon ended his fast, heh heh.
Hope you are well!
I love the melty cheese sammy!
Am doing well, hope you are as well. Just settled a big case yesterday, going to see Gary Clark Jr. tonight and then Chris Robinson Brotherhood tomorrow night. And the weather here is supposed to be good over the weekend so means plenty of opportunity to get some needed yardwork done and take the bike out for a ride.
All in all, life is good.
Sounds wonderful! I have been enjoying your comments here very much, by the way.
The US has finally achieved a one Party system…you’re either a Republicrat corporatist or not, which just makes you a peasant.
You know what else has been proven decisively by the Sanders campaign? That having big money backers like Hillary is no guarantee of winning an election. Hillary has been the presumptive Democratic nominee since she lost in the primary to Obama in 2008. Her political machine is backed and supported by exactly the kind of money that was at issue in the Citizens United case. Yet Bernie, a relative nobody before this election, is nearing parity with Hillary in poll after poll across the nation.
I would say that of the people who do follow politics even slightly were well aware of the ONLY independent senator from Vermont. Not to say he was anywhere near as popular as the former First Lady, but not a “relative nobody” in the political scene. Maybe relative to Hillary. But not in the political system.
Money doesn’t mean victory, but it also doesn’t mean that average people have much of a say in the political process either. With the odd exception of the Sanders campaign, big money causes ordinary people to be nothing more than observers while the economic giants fight each other for control of the country.
A bit premature, methinks. You seem to think that votes matter in the Democratic primary — they don’t.
hmm. i have read your comments and i see a lot of ‘this is not possible’. ‘we dont have the power to change’ ‘ votes dont matter’. i personally cannot live with that kind of world view.
Yes, she bought the super delegates, so her nomination is assured. But the victory will be less sweet if she doesn’t win the beauty contest (popular vote) too.
She doesn’t care about the beauty as long as she has the power to exterminate whoever, however and whenever she wants, and the money. Who needs a mandate when the populace is just bugsplat anyway. W never made beauty queen, but in his mind, he made out jes’ fine. Her mindset is utterly indistinguishable. Wanna be a war-time president….
The right-wing Supreme Court’s argument is that large corporate cash donations to politicians cannot be compared to bribing police officers. If one bribes a police officer to get out of a speeding ticket, that’s quid-pro; the political analogy is delivering a suitcase of cash to a politician right before an important vote.
But consider the case of someone who donates $10,000 to a police officers’ association or union, and in exchange gets a decal to place on their vehicle, with the understanding that if pulled over for drunken driving or speeding, they will not be given a ticket or arrested. That’s more how the political campaign contribution system works. In such a case it would be more difficult to prove that there was a specific quid-pro, unless there were taped conversations and insider testimony. However, we can’t rely on the police, FBI, prosecutors and courts to honestly investigate political corruption cases; as with the conservatives on the Supreme Court, many are political ideologues who engage in selective prosecutions of corruption cases for political reasons. The 2006 Don Siegelman prosecution (he was the Democratic Governor of Alabama) is a good example:
“. . .according to a former U.S. Attorney in Alabama, federal prosecutors knew the case was weak but went on a “fishing expedition” to “find anything they could find against [Siegelman].” The Siegelman case may be one of the most egregiously bad faith prosecutions by the Justice Department ever . . .”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bennett-l-gershman/bribery-cases-_b_1590284.html
Hence, the best policy is to put strict limits on campaign donations, because a politician is not likely to give a quid-pro deal to an individual who donated a few hundred dollars. In legalese, this approach reduces the “moral hazard”; i.e the risk that politicians who take large donations will tend to view their large donors, not the citizens who vote in elections, as being the people they must answer ultimately answer to.
That’s why Sanders, who relies on small donations, is much less likely to give a quid-pro deal to a supporter than Clinton, who took millions in speaking fees from Goldman Sachs, UBS, and other Wall Street banks, as well as huge campaign donations from individual billionaires like Israel Likud supporters Haim & Cheryl Saban ($5 million), neoliberal IMF/TPP champion George Soros ($7 million), Wall Street deregulation advocate Herbert Sandler($2.5 million), etc. Clinton’s claim that “you will not find that I ever changed a view or a vote because of any donation I ever received” is simply unbelievable – she was a NAFTA and TPP supporter, then claimed that she wasn’t; her decisions in office vs. her public statements on the campaign trail are entirely at odds with one another on issues from fossil fuels to pharmaceuticals to student loans to domestic manufacturing jobs – all issues that her big Wall Street donors have an interest in; an interest that deviates greatly form that of the average citizen. One of the more egregious example’s of Clinton’s loyalty to certain donors (many of whom are not American citizens) is seen in her approval of arms sales while Secretary of State; there is a lot of evidence that millions of dollars in donations to the Clinton Foundation by parties involved in the deals (for example, a Saudi-Boeing fighter jet deal was linked to $10 million from the Saudis to the Clinton Foundation and another $900,000 from Boeing, just two months before Clinton approved the deal). Foreign involvement in U.S. elections is illegal, but the Clinton Foundation provides a route around this ban (John McCain’s private foundation is a similar beneficiary of Saudi money).
The only logical conclusion is that the Clintons are servants of corporate oligarchs and foreign dictators who lie to the public about what they will actually do once in office in order to get popular votes.
Trevor Timm expands on this nicely as well in his Guardian piece from today:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/14/money-hillary-clinton-banks-oil-links-presidential-campaign
As a local union representative for a public agency (decades ago) it was disgustingly fascinating to watch this revolving=door switch-a-roo as it unfolded.
Time and again we would have long time employees that seemed legitimately supportive of the open and democratic processes surrounding collective bargaining (we’re all in this together, don’tcha’ know), only to see them get that promotion into management or to win that election onto the governing board, and then see that shared vision of transparency and collaboration disappear, if not often become openly adversarial to the democratic ideal that they say they still support.
Not only do we have the the Barney Frank’s, the Howard Dean’s, the Tom Daschle’s, the Clinton’s, the Obama’s (who’ll he/they go work for, I wonder) and the rest at the national (and international) level to contend with, more importantly we have to deal with it a the local level, or the corruption will (as Sander’s at least recognizes) be never-ending.
What I learned from those experiences (and over time) is that it doesn’t matter what laws, rules, or regulations are in place to run whatever system of governance you have (a union, city or county council, school board, etc) effectively and transparently, it only matters what type of person you have in those positions of power.
Sanders, for example, is the least selfish, most consistent and most transparent of the candidates running. If elected, will that make him the most effective candidate given the current paradigm, where the demonstrably selfish and nontransparent reside? No. That’s why we have to elect others with the same traits throughout our democracy to change that system of corruption, from the bottom to the top.
In the end, politics is GIGO: Garbage in – garbage out.
I’m a Clinton supporter who thinks money is corrupting, and I voted True in your poll. If I’m not mistaken, the majority of campaign contributions are given to politicians who are already sympathetic to the industries/policies in question. If I’m Big Oil, I’m giving most of my money to Republican candidates because I’m just trying to get ideologically friendly politicians elected. The numbers bear this out: The GOP gets around ten times more money from oil companies than the Democrats.
An honest congressperson who’s ideologically opposed to regulating carbon is a good investment for an oil company. If you’re stupid enough to use a snowball as proof that global warming is fake, you’re the guy I want in the Senate.
Similarly, Hillary Clinton can take a donation from Planned Parenthood without it meaning she’s been bought by Big Repro. She was already pro-choice.
Wall Street isn’t a benign organization like Planned Parenthood, but the same logic still applies. There’s no doubt Clinton is friendlier to Wall Street than Sanders. If I’m a Liberal who works on Wall Street, I’m going to donate Clinton because she supports my values without ruining my career.
None of this means money doesn’t corrupt politics. If money is speech, then it’s a bullhorn that drowns out everyone else’s speech. It gives outsized influence over the public discourse to the wealthy few. That corrupts the system. It gives special access to public officials that isn’t available to the rest of us. If there’s an issue important to oil companies, their money gives them opportunities to make their case to lawmakers; opportunities that aren’t available to the rest of us. That corrupts the system.
Quid pro quo isn’t the only form of corruption, but the other forms don’t require the politicians themselves to be corrupt. The fact that James Inhofe is stupid enough to take a snowball onto the floor of the Senate doesn’t mean he’s not corrupt — he might be. It just doesn’t mean he *is* corrupt.
None of this means it isn’t better not to take their money. Taking their money makes you complicit in a bad system, even if you’re not directly contributing to the corruption. I love Bernie’s efforts to fundraise cleanly, and I’d love it if Hillary would do the same. I just don’t think the difference between those positions is the difference between being honest and being corrupt.
seeing is believing.
“It gives outsized influence over the public discourse to the wealthy few. That corrupts the system. ”
Therein is the virus. That which corrupts feeds. That which feeds attracts. In a competitive environment there is a hierarchy. The top of the hierachy is always the most suport of THE FEEDING MACHINE. The people in the hierarchy, top to bottom, have a dependency for stability, predictability, being fed, longevity, the whole life support thing.
The corruption starts with decisions that favor one person or group over another. But the evil of the corruption is when THE FEEDING MACHINE as a system has domination and control over that which it feeds upon to feed members of it’s hierarchy. THIS IS THE PROBLEM.
It’s a lot like bashar or mubarek or momar… once a feeding system and hierarchy are in place, and have power, everyone on the outside of it are either food, slaves or the enemy. THERE IS NO OTHER PARADIGN IN THIS REGARD.
I really hope you can step away from the trees and see the bigger picture. WALLSTREET FEEDS ON MAINSTREET.
There is a social-capitalist solution that is better than the current system. What the uppers wont like is that it removes their power to have more at will.
These bankster greedsters will not change because competition has them running in circles looking for an advantage knowing that in their world not beating your competition equates to losing. But in a social-capitalist economy the relativity of their ambition is not lost, it is just restrained from causeing harm to others and collapsing the economy. It’s like putting a muzzle on a biting dog. The social-capitalist framework will work well for everyone and disallow rewarding the virus of greed.
One has to be evil to reject that.
Succinct, well argued and …..well done!
Clinton isn’t corrupt. Campaign financing has nothing to do with how she has voted, how she will vote, or what policies she will advocate. You have it backward. She gets the contributions BECAUSE she is for capital and against the interests of the working class. The problem is systemic and can’t be solved by trying to find one or another “honest” politician.
You can’t talk your way around this. Big money in politics is destroying our democracy.
“After sifting through nearly 1,800 U.S. policies enacted in that period[between 1981 and 2002 ] and comparing them to the expressed preferences of average Americans (50th percentile of income), affluent Americans (90th percentile), and large special interests groups, researchers concluded that the U.S. is dominated by its economic elite.”
“When a majority of citizens disagrees with economic elites and/or with organized interests, they generally lose. Moreover, because of the strong status quo bias built into the US political system, even when fairly large majorities of Americans favour policy change, they generally do not get it.”
“The theory of ‘biased pluralism’ that the Princeton and Northwestern researchers believe the U.S. system fits holds that policy outcomes “tend to tilt towards the wishes of corporations and business and professional associations.”
http://www.businessinsider.com/major-study-finds-that-the-us-is-an-oligarchy-2014-4
http://www.ibtimes.com/political-capital/federal-corruption-prosecutions-plummet-under-barack-obama-2343096
http://www.ibtimes.com/us-prosecution-white-collar-crime-hits-20-year-low-report-2037160
So you think Clinton believes in something after all. Touching.
You’ll have to point us to the part in her campaign where she explicitly says she is “against the interests of the working class.” Otherwise it might seem she is not being as straightforward about her beliefs as you suggest. Which might mean corruption.
True, and this points out the role of the corporate media conglomerates in allowing Clinton get away with spewing bald-faced lies during her campaign; they refuse to challenge her statements or contrast them with her votes while a New York Senator or her policies while Secretary of State – all of which demonstrate utter loyalty to the Wall Street interests that control the corporate media.
When she says she’s going to help young people deal with their huge student loan debts, or that she’s going to craft policies that bring manufacturing jobs back to the United States from overseas sweatshops, she’s just lying through her teeth. If you look at her speaking fees, her refusal to make public the transcripts of Goldman Sachs speeches, her hustling of world leaders and corporations for Clinton Foundation donations, then she just comes across as someone who is obsessed with accumulating wealth and power above all else.
It’s true that this is who she’s been her entire career; without the support and backing of oligarchs like the Walmarts and Warren Buffet she’d still be back in Arkansas, probably flogging real estate for a living.
None of what you pointed out supports the idea that she is not corrupt.
As you write, she is “lying through her teeth,” so what part of the RS post (which began with the words “Clinton isn’t corrupt.” is “True,”?
I was thinking of the word ‘corrupt’ as in ‘altered’ i.e. a corrupted piece of information. Clinton started out as a tool of billionaires and corporate interests (lawyer for Walmart) – she’s been loyal to that agenda her whole political career; her agenda is uncorrupted, aka ‘unaltered.’
The other meaning of corrupt, ‘dishonest or fraudulent conduct by those in power, typically involving bribery’ – well, I’m afraid I consider the term ‘honest politician’ to be an oxymoron. That’s why the framers of the Constitution set up the checks and balances system, because while the heads of the judicial, legislative and executive branches may all be ‘corrupt’, they will not coordinate with one another. All human beings are fallible, you and mean included. Nobody should ever be allowed to have ‘supreme power’ in the dictatorial sense, not even Bernie Sanders.
I just don’t believe in being a loyal follower of anyone – for example, I actually think many of Donald Trump’s foreign policy approaches (pulling money out of NATO’s European game, or ending the special relationship with the Middle East dictatorships) are the best of any seen in this campaign – and notice that Donald Trump’s supporters argue that, since he has his own money, he is ‘uncorruptable’ as he has no need to take bribes to finance his campaign. It’s a solid argument – but does that make him the best candidate? I doubt it.
The point is, this is all about what kinds of policies the government will take in the future. Hillary Clinton will serve the oligarchs without question – not just American ones, but also foreign dictators like the Saudis – all to the detriment of the vast majority of American citizens, and that would be a disaster for the country’s future.
If I wanted to call people like the Clintons and the Bushes names, I’d go with ‘traitor’ rather than ‘corrupt’, because they don’t serve the interests of the general American public, which is what they’re supposed to be doing.
You might consider supplying a glossary with all your posts, so your readers can consult your peculiar meanings of the words corrupt, politican, traitor, etc.
Google provides an online dictionary if the words are too big or confusing. I often use it myself.
okay, be disingenuous if you want
pretty much correct. The system as a feeding machine now attracts the worst people – like cruz.
Honesty is a requirement. Power is the political parties problem. Power over economic/cash flow, power over courts, power to write laws. The u.s. is bleeding to death. Bleeding cash, bleeding productivity return, bleeding rights, bleeding resources, bleeding affordability.
Hillary is the bleeders best friend. She wont stop the bleeding, she will just offer a transfusion so we can keep bleeding.
I blame “average” enthusiasts for the Democratic Party as much as any professional politician or pundit. Remember when those left of Democrats were accused of unreasonable “purity” for making any criticisms of Obama (or any Democrat in office)? That is, after the accusations of “racism” “sexism” or “privilege” didn’t stick.
So now that it turns out somebody could come in and run a surprisingly successful campaign as a Democrat on the premise that just being a Democrat is not enough, we have the same bunch insisting upon a new born-again purity, one entirely built around Loyalty To The Party. I don’t know why they didn’t think of this before; I guess they didn’t need to. It really sweeps any remaining questions of principles, or goals beyond getting elected, under the rug forever.
For a particularly nauseating version of this going right now (that also combines the privilege argument), see:
http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/4/13/1515035/-Independent-Sense-of-Entitlement
And the very people whining about these oh so unfair “purity tests” are the same people enthusiastically applauding Bruce Springsteen, Ringo Starr, Jimmy Buffet, ect., for cancelling shows in North Carolina. Purity tests are great for me, but not for thee…
Not much symmetry in your example. Plenty of people who applaud a boycott of North Carolina don’t agree on Clinton v. Sanders (or don’t support either of them). And I’m sure people who disagree with the boycott are supporters of various candidates, or none of them.
the heart of the liberal critique
I guess I no longer believe there is such a thing. Not at the core. Neoliberalism, and maybe even liberalism, has demonstrated that there are no principles that cannot be twisted and distorted for the sake of political expediency. And, those contortions suggest to me there are no principles at stake, at all. Anything that can be that malleable isn’t a principle.
There is an argument that mature adults have complex value systems. There are, after all, very real trade-offs that have to be made in this imperfect world. And, ethical systems have to admit circumstances when the interests of those with political power collide with those they are presumed to represent. Still, I have (voting since Nixon) come to the conclusion that Democrats have simply written off even trying to represent anyone with anything less than a very secure middle class income. They simply do not care. And, that’s unacceptable to me.
Clinton’s entire campaign has been one demonstration of one instance of blatant hypocrisy after another. I stand in awe of her supporters who seem to be fully defended from being able to admit that, and the verbal gymnastics by which they’ll (for themselves) dismiss those instances. It does seem that she is destined to get the Democratic nomination, and from the heart of this deep purple state, I won’t vote for her. I have given up trying to understand the instincts of my demographic cohort who will.
I’m grateful for the Sanders campaign for making the rigged nature of this game so clear. It stands in stark contradiction. Though they aren’t, and won’t be, Clinton and her supporters should be embarrassed by the differences.
The problem with “the liberal ideology” is that people seem remarkably shy about trying to flesh it out. You look at the Communists – they have an ideology. May be wrong, but at least they know why they believe what they believe. Ditto the capitalist fundamentalists with their ever-expanding network of justifications for property above mankind. But what *do* liberals believe, outside of this vote and that vote over health care or education spending?
We have a need to write this down, if need be for the first time. We should explain that the Earth’s resources, which predate mankind, cannot fairly be considered the property of a few. We should lay out an economics that balances the right of people to keep the rewards of their private enterprise with the rent they owe for their disproportionate use of natural resources. But to be successful, liberalism should also be aware of its Christian roots, and embrace and expound on the idea that men were endowed by their Creator with rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness – which is the most successful explication of the basis of the philosophy that I know of.
What I don’t know is – has ANYONE tried to write this document I would like to see?
I’m not an atheist and can’t stand “certainty” based atheists who suspiciously resemble all the other certainty-based faithful – (I am instead a “don’t know/don’t-care whether there’s a god”-ist, because the label “agnostic” doesn’t seem to be a strong enough statement of just how irrelevant this question is) –
– but your attempt to force liberalism to acknowledge a debt to Christianity isn’t going to go anywhere. We all owe everything to all the ancients, even the ones who we don’t agree with — which doesn’t mean we have to list every last influence, which would take forever anyway.
Try for something a bit more universal.
“has ANYONE tried to write this document I would like to see?”
Check out “Progress & Poverty” by Henry George.
“The problem with “the liberal ideology” is that people seem remarkably shy about trying to flesh it out.”
That is because neoliberalism, which is the ideology underpinning the liberal, or as Clinton now calls it, the progressive, outlook, is pretty fucking ugly.
As Bourdieu writes, “What is neoliberalism? A programme for destroying collective structures which may impede the pure market logic.”
https://mondediplo.com/1998/12/08bourdieu
@Wnt
The definitive statement and justificatory argument in modern times is John Rawl’s Theory of Justice.
@Milton
I agree that Georgism seems to be what Wnt is describing but not that Georgism is equivalent to liberalism as the term is currently or formerly used.
@Vic Perry
As a matter of historical fact, the Judeo-Christian ethic was central to the arguments supporting the first statements of liberal philosophy including by John Locke, the originator of Jefferson’s “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness” quoted by Wnt (though Locke wrote “life, liberty, and property”). Jefferson himself wrote “endowed by their Creator…” in that quote. I agree that fairy tales need not be invoked in these arguments, however.
Neoliberalism, and maybe even liberalism, has demonstrated that there are no principles that cannot be twisted and distorted for the sake of political expediency. And, those contortions suggest to me there are no principles at stake, at all. Anything that can be that malleable isn’t a principle.
The vast majority of people seem capable of the most profound defense mechanisms whenever anything they have placed an emotional debt in is called to question.
Donald Trump will never, ever succeed in constructing a wall nearly as dense and impenetrable as the ones I see rising in the folks I know who support Clinton. The immediate, intense anger I experience from them whenever I challenge their “truth” is evidence – at least to me – that, on some level, they still understand the actual impoverishment that defense represents.
One common thread in Clinton supporters is their loyalty to traditional media sources, which in many of the cases I know surpasses their loyalty to Clinton. Take a look at the recent New York Times ‘mission statement':
“. . .a customer experience that rewards loyalty and habituation.”
“. . .we must thoughtfully build an audience of loyalists.”
“. . .to expand our loyal readership around the world and increase the impact and influence of our work.”
“. . .the shared goal of improving the experience for our loyal, habituated audience. . .”
That’s not a news organization, that’s a propaganda agenda – and the coordination is obvious: the NYT ran endless propaganda supporting the lies about the Iraq WMD programs; Hillary voted for the war. The NYT refused to report on the mass surveillance program despite James Risen having the story (he had to write a book about it, instead, after the 2004 elections); Hillary Clinton as Secretary of State knew all about the mass surveillance program; and the NYT editorial board has endorsed Clinton for president.
You have this entire population of ‘educated liberal Democrats’ who support Clinton who take their beliefs and opinions straight from such corporate media outlets without doing any critical analysis – fairly intelligent people, but who are somehow incapable of thinking outside the little box – brainwashed into complacent acceptance of what’s delivered to them. They respond to any direct criticism of “their paper” with peevish anger; at most, you can say to them, “Why not go to Google News or some other search engine and type in the keywords to that NYT story and see what alternative views are out there?”
There is an equivalent corporate media program aimed at ‘educated conservatives’ run through Forbes and the Wall Street Journal; while they deviate on ‘social issues’ the two media groups march in lockstep on Wall Street deregulation, foreign military intervention, the outsourcing of manufacturing jobs to sweatshop zones, etc. It’s no surprise to find that both groups, conservative and liberal corporate media, are financially associated with the billionaires and the corporate conglomerates. The common factor among their readership, liberal or conservative, is “loyalty and habituation.” Like something out of a Goebbels propaganda instruction memo, really.
What I’d really like to see is anti-trust legislation including a ban on holding companies owning multiple media outlets; thus would break up the media conglomerates into hundreds of independent outfits. The employee-owned media outlet would be another great idea. Of course any politician who tried to introduce such legislation would be viciously targeted by media groups and their Wall Street controllers, but it would be worth it.
“. . .a customer experience that rewards loyalty and habituation.”
sounds like the paper of record is now reviewing heroin packets.
[blockquote]The immediate, intense anger I experience from them whenever I challenge their “truth” is evidence – at least to me – that, on some level, they still understand the actual impoverishment that defense represents.[/blockquote]
It strikes me as a corollary of the theory of cognitive dissonance: the psychological distress of trying to maintain contradictory ideas of Clinton’s trustworthiness against the undeniable evidence of her perfidy.
My grandfather used to say, “The guilty dog barks loudest.”
life support
comfort
wealth
what are we entitled to?
what do we own?
liberals need goal posts.
they used to be the Constitution until the thieving politicians decided they could write laws to rob people and bury the people in lawyers fees and years to get back what they were robbed of. And then the thieving politicians, after maybe losing a battle or two, do it all over again. The thieving politicians are no different than organized crime. And that’s legal?
Nicely written. The highlighted dissent by Justice Stevens is brilliant. Yesterday, we learned that most people don’t like bombs being dropped on them (Hussain). Today, we learn that corporate campaign contributions to politicians are corrupting.
It seems so damn basic to me and ridiculous that someone would have to think twice about these issues and question them.
Interestingly enough, I was watching Manufacturing Consent, the documentary, early this week. Chomsky says that 80% of the population can’t think, they are dulled by an endless stream of meaninglessness. Examples would include Facebook, mainstream media, sports, etc.
As a result, most people fail to see critical and important connections. The Verizon CEO story from yesterday, the story yesterday by Hussian, and today’s piece on Citizens United are all powerfully related.
When normal, average people see this, it’s going to get “real.” When the world population sees this together, at about the same time, it’s going to be damn right impressive.
My knowledge of Marx is limited, but think of building a house. The basic foundation is what everything else rests upon. The foundation matters, as it supports the structures. Marx says that in rogue capitalists societies, like ours, the basic foundation is based on a capitalist (e.g., Verizon CEO) exploiting wage labor (Verizon employees) and all of the structures of society (political, legislative- Citizens United) build from this foundation. The very structures have their stability on the base foundation- exploitation of man and woman to benefit capitalists.
But problematically, man and woman want and desire to be more than a slave. Built into their soul is the desire to produce and create, to work, on something beautiful that they want to create and work on. And as this internal desire is increasingly stiffled due to said capitalists, there comes a point where people revolt.
This is what we are on the brink of. And we are mainly on the brink of this disaster due to publicly traded companies striving to increase anonymous share holder value, while negating their employees, the community, and common principles of human decency.
I hold to the premise that the revolution does not have to be a blood bath and can happen politically and we can model, today, for the world what democracy can and should look like. Real freedom.
This is why I support Sanders and cannot support, will never support, Hillary.
ps- sorry for the rant, I needed to get that out of my chest.
Very well expressed. Bring it on.
GREAT RANT!
the house.
the foundation.
the relationship.
the purpose.
“This is what we are on the brink of.”
profound.
spot on.
Question…. barring consideration of ownership, Are we working to work more or work less or are we just hamsters in a wheel?
disclaimer of prejudice: WE HAVE BEEN ROBBED by a system of currency that prints to loan to repossess like a game of musical chairs mixed with a ponzi scheme and it’s all coming apart because it should never have been allowed.
barabbas,
My main point above is that Bernie is addressing the “foundation” of the metaphorical house; the rogue capitalistic system and the underlying principles and relationships. This is of importance if we really wish to change other structures in our society. Hillary is not going to change anything substantially in our society because she reinforces the foundation, and therefore all existing structures will continue to be the same as they continue to build up from upon the foundation of rogue capitalism- exploitation.
But to the article and your question, prior to Bernie it was a given that in order to win an election a candidate “had” to take large, corporate donations. Bernie has proved this premise is not true, to the tune of about $45 million per month from several hundred thousand small contributors- including myself. You know, the regular people, the 99%.
Bernie broke the paradigm. The question you are asking me is, sadly, framed from within the current rogue capitalistic paradigm. For you and me, it’s the only way we know see and understand the world. What would be nice is to alter the “foundation” and then this question changes or becomes mute altogether.
History shows a long, evolving arch whereby man and woman are becoming the true persons they are meant to be. This is reflected in religion, art, relationships, etc. As a result of this historical arch, of spiritual and biological development, man is now more than ever desirous to create and work as a reflection of himself. When I say work, I only mean to lay his hands upon the world and express himself; or herself, as it were.
At this very moment in history, as man seeks to express himself more fully, it also happens to be the time where rogue, irresponsible capitalists (bankers, speculators, insurance, pharm, etc) are making “work” intolerable for creative, expressive people. There are few creative, expressive outlets as the main purpose for man is to make “widgets” for profit for the capitalist.
This tension, this polarization, the 1% and 99% actually has very little to do with money per se, other than money allows one more opportunity to create and express from the deep place in the soul (psyche). Stated simply, working at a call center for Verizon is not on most people’s life’s ambition list.
So this is what Marx saw in the historical march of time juxtaposed with the logical ends of capitalism. He inverted Hegel’s spiritual culmination, applied it to man and set is against the well-thought out study of capitalism and history.
It’s why in Marxist thought this day of reckoning that we keep getting fragmented bits and pieces of are considered inevitable. But it is also why we have the power now, through collective democratic and political action, to address the foundation and make adjustments in our society. But the foundation must be addressed, and Bernie speaks to this. Hillary has not, she simply reinforces the existing paradigm, which was really the point of Glenn’s writing.
Succinctly, in this system, we work to earn a profit for the capitalist and our labor is wage labor, just enough to keep us alive and hopefully a little more; not likely, but hopefully. We work to survive and earn ghost money for derivative speculators to hide in Panama. That’s what we do.
But in truth, there are some private, and even some public companies that do care about employees, the local community, and earning a fair and reasonable profit. We need more good people, that’s the bottom line.
Incidentally, re-read Acts chapter 2.
I like Zephyr Teachout. She is on my short list of Pols to support. If we want better, we will have to support better.
Bernie Sanders
Alan Grayson
Zephyr Teachout
http://www.zephyrteachoutforcongress.com/
How do HRC supporters answer that question? Here is my guess: they don’t have to, they can vote for anybody they want regardless of whether they have paid attention or not.
Whenever I ask people why they voted for HRC instead of Bernie, most seem to say, “I don’t know much about Bernie.”
Amazingly, politicians of a laissez-faire capitalist bent have seized the moral high ground on taking corporate money, because taking corporate money comports entirely with their principles.
Any conservative free-marketeer Republican politician can say “I’ve always been philosophically a laissez-faire capitalist and taking corporate money hasn’t changed me one bit. I’m the same politician I’ve always been, and taking corporate money is perfectly in accord with my free-market principles. There’s no hypocrisy in my actions.”
Democrats have no defense against that anymore. Democrats are actually on a lower moral plane now than people who take corporate money as a matter of principle. That’s a low place to be.
She refuses to release her speeches. Let’s see how that plays in Brooklyn.
That guy retired.
This woman is the most corrupt venal bubbleheaded asshole to ever run for POTUS,
She has a track record of shite.
Her mind boggling support is just another hit on the education.morals and reasoning of all these illiberal hypocrites whose vote is gender orientated,as that,along with ignorant black support,is her only base.
Except for Nixon, Reagan, Bush, other Bush, and a whole slew of wannabes.
Dahoit – “ignorant black support”
Why I am not surprised that one of our resident anti-semites is also an apparent racist.
Although it is politically incorrect to say this, it is nonetheless my personal experience that only a tiny fraction of the black people I know accept the fact that Barack Obama is comparable to George W. Bush as a president. There is bias, and I am sure that for many thinking black people there is a strange mixture of hope, pride and pain over Obama’s presidency. Moving on to Clinton, we see a very similar phenomenon in play, with senior feminists like Gloria Steinem and female politicians such as Madeleine Albright saying that it is time that we have a female president, and that women who do not support Hillary are traitors to their gender.
But nobody should make the mistake of placing Hillary Clinton in the same class as Benazir Bhutto, Angela Merkel or Aung San Suu Kyi. Madame Nhu, perhaps.
“But nobody should make the mistake of placing Hillary Clinton in the same class as Benazir Bhutto, Angela Merkel or Aung San Suu Kyi. Madame Nhu, perhaps.”
More like Elizabeth Bathory.
While Steinem, at the height of her renown, was a happy little pawn for the CIA, a known bastion of female empowerment and independence. From her current pinnacle as feminist eminence grise, she has taken to patronizing “little girls” expressing their opinions and hopes, quite strongly held, and eminently well defended, saying they merely want “little boys”. ..
In her defense, Steinem, at the time, was apparently suffering from a really bad case of the Sigmund Freuds
Well, if you want to think of it in a positive way, double standards are a beautiful testament to the power of love. You yourself have admitted to blatant hypocrisy when it comes to the four legged set. I hear you surveil your dogs like crazy.
Two legs good, four legs bad…no wait second!
Love makes the rules from fools to kings
Once again, writing that’s well reasoned with astute observations from Mr. Greenwald. Thanks and keep hitting it out of the park!
It’s all very well to have principles, but why should the Democrats handicap themselves by refusing corporate largesse? The alternative, which Mr. Sanders has been forced to follow, is trying to inspire people by advocating for change. Relatively few people, other than the uber-wealthy, are inspired by a promise to maintain the status quo. Trying to be inspirational leads to pandering by politicians, making promises they know they can’t keep.
So having principles inevitably leads to lies and deception. Ultimately, I must ask: what does Mr. Greenwald have against bipartisanship?
since you opened that door, wall or floor, lest i fall i try without fail.
pun or none, bi-partisanship is only had by partisanship if first to buy partisanship.