Ever since the U.S. last October bombed a hospital run by Doctors Without Borders (MSF) in Kunduz, Afghanistan, the U.S. vehemently denied guilt while acting exactly like a guilty party would. First, it changed its story repeatedly. Then, it blocked every effort — including repeated demands from MSF — to have an independent investigation determine what really happened. As May Jeong documented in a richly reported story for The Intercept yesterday, the Afghan government — rather than denying that the hospital was targeted — instead repeatedly claimed that doing so was justified; moreover, they were sympathetic to calls for an independent investigation, which the U.S. blocked. What is beyond dispute, as Jeong wrote, is that the “211 shells that were fired … were felt by the 42 men, women, and children who were killed.” MSF insisted the bombing was “deliberate,” and ample evidence supports that charge.
Despite all this, the U.S. military is about to release a report that, so predictably, exonerates itself from all guilt; it was, of course, all just a terribly tragic mistake. Worse, reports the Los Angeles Times’s W.J. Hennigan, “No one will face criminal charges.” Instead, this is the “justice” being meted out to those responsible:
One officer was suspended from command and ordered out of Afghanistan. The others were given lesser punishments: Six were sent to counseling, seven were issued letters of reprimand, and two were ordered to retraining courses.
MSF continues to insist that the attack was a “war crime” and must be investigated by an independent tribunal under the Geneva Conventions. In a statement this week, Amnesty International said that it has “serious concerns about the Department of Defense’s questionable track record of policing itself.” The L.A. Times story notes that Physicians for Human Rights said in a letter to the White House that “the gravity of harm caused by the reported failures to follow protocol in Kunduz appears to constitute gross negligence that warrants active pursuit of criminal liability.”
But none of that matters. The only law to which the U.S. government is subject is its own interests. U.S. officials scoffed at global demands for a real investigation into what took place here, and then doled out “punishments” of counseling, training classes, and letters of reprimand for those responsible for this carnage. That’s almost a worse insult, a more extreme expression of self-exoneration and indifference, than no sanctions at all. But that’s par for the course in a country that has granted full-scale legal immunity for those who perpetrated the most egregious crimes: from the systemic fraud that caused the 2008 financial crisis to the worldwide regime of torture the U.S. government officially implemented.
Yesterday in Syria, an MSF-run hospital was targeted with an airstrike, almost certainly deliberately, by what was very likely the Syrian government or the Russians, killing at least 50 patients and doctors, including one of the last pediatricians in Aleppo. On behalf of the U.S. government, Secretary of State John Kerry pronounced: “We are outraged by yesterday’s airstrikes in Aleppo on the al Quds hospital supported by both Doctors Without Borders and the International Committee of the Red Cross, which killed dozens of people, including children, patients and medical personnel.” On the list of those with even minimal credibility to denounce that horrific airstrike, Kerry and his fellow American officials do not appear.
Related:
When murder for empire goes out prowling for a night in the town, Kerry is the wingman.
It was a war crime — and almost certainly a deliberate one — and should be named as such. The only plausible way they could claim innocence would be if they were exonerated by a full independent investigation.
Oh, those crocodiles are weeping (again) tonight ! If only they had known the terrible thing they did! But how could they ? It was the fog of war… the confusion of combat… the failure of communication…the tragedy of power…the burden of ‘leadership’…the ‘malfunction’ of the system…the…
CraigSummers v CraigSummers
The hypocrite strikes again
it’s a mistake because we say it is?? they are terrorists because we say they are…We are not torturers because we say are not….there are no secret prisons because we say there aren’t…
George H.W. Bush said “WE WILL PREVAIL”
George W. Bush said “WE WILL PREVAIL”
President Barrack Obama said “WE WILL PREVAIL”
WE ARE LOSING…..this is not another Viet Nam….it is worse because of Washington’s LIES
The U.S. military knows it’s no longer a “defense” force in any reasonable sense of the word, but is instead a repressive, murderous and corrupt bully for the multinational corporate interests. This why they lack any trace of compunction in compounding their atrocities through cover-ups and fake investigations like we have here.
“During the flight,” [Gen. Campbell] said, “the electronic systems onboard the aircraft malfunctioned, preventing the operation of an essential command and control capability and eliminating the ability of aircraft to transmit video, send and receive email, or send and receive electronic messages.”
Oh how very convenient for this to have occurred since it, presumably serves to ensure that the vital video evidence and electronic communication evidence of the attack cannot be examined by any future independent investigation.
Eaxctly, the probability of simultaneous technical failure of the several subsystems is near zero, and , if true, would have resulted in the aircraft aborting the mission and returning to base for repair. So we can add criminal obstruction to the long list of other charges.
Yes, just like when a cop’s body can or car cam conks out just before the suspect is shot or beaten. You just have to believe the cop when he tells you the suspect caused it!
The world is once again laughing and mocking the state of US justice and accountability for this atrocity which constituted a clear breach of International Humanitarian Laws, and which also broke the rules of war.
The blocking , by the US, of an independent investigation, which the Afghan Government was sympathetic to, and which was being demanded by the MSF is disgusting, and completely unacceptable.
International pressure must be maintained until an independent investigation is launched, so that this heinous crime can be investigated fully and properly,so that those responsible can be held accountable.
A massacre is taking place in Aleppo by the Syrian regime, but you will never read about it in the Intercept (Guardian):
“……..Syria’s largest city [Aleppo] is once again under bombardment: its residents are, once again, exposed to pitiless, wanton attack as the world looks on. The ferocity and cruelty of the bombing of Aleppo by Bashar al-Assad’s air force has shocked even those familiar with the worst of this conflict…….(my addition in brackets)
……..Since breaking its ceasefire eight days ago, the regime has launched more than 260 airstrikes, 110 artillery strikes and 18 missiles, and has dropped 68 bombs, according to the civil defence organisation in opposition-controlled Syria known as the White Helmets……On Thursday, bombs destroyed a hospital backed by Médecins Sans Frontières and the International Committee of the Red Cross, killing the city’s last remaining paediatrician, along with 26 other people, including three children……”
Some children just mean more to the Intercept than others.
How much do you get paid for your posts?
Or is it that you are really just that obtuse?
“But none of that matters. The only law to which the U.S. government is subject is its own interests. U.S. officials scoffed at global demands for a real investigation into what took place here, and then doled out “punishments” of counseling, training classes, and letters of reprimand for those responsible for this carnage.” ~ Greenwald
Agreed. And the US Empire acts as every State ever has. The more power the State has the more it abuses that power. It is the very nature of the State to abuse its own citizens and to abuse others when it can.
The US Empire aspires to control everything on the planet. There is no place on the earth that is not “in the national interest”. That, my friend, is the main problem.
Good story today. I shared it with a few friends on Twitter.
~ Mark
REMEMBER:
It’s never EVER a war crime when Americans commit war crimes…
The general lack of empathy of Americans is evidenced by the rise of Hillary Clinton as the most likely Democratic nominee. Those same people seem to think that Iraq, Syria, and Libya are merely insignificant blips in the record of a so-called “progressive” candidate. Apparently, the carnage inflicted on Muslim civilians don’t count in today’s partisan liberal collective. “She’s a woman, you see, so I’m with her”.
I wonder if their enthrallment would still exist if they watched the video of the young Libyan boy on a gurney, screaming in bewildered agony with his jaw dangling from his face caused by a U.S. bomb? Or his sister lying next to him in total shock with her leg horribly mangled by shrapnel? What about the Libyan UN peacekeeper whose wife and and children were killed by a U.S. led airstrike while they celebrated his child’s birthday? Americans are oblivious to these real human consequences…provided they’re Muslim.
The same goes for the Kunduz hospital the U.S. turned into a human meat grinder. They don’t really care unless it affects them directly. That’s the primary reason we’re still in the Middle East and Africa. Americans are lucky they can freely bomb Muslim countries without fear of substantive reprisals. Consequently, this allows Democrats to indulge in contrived policy issues which they know are fake as exemplified by elevation of that sick sociopath, Hillary Clinton, who chuckled after Qaddafi was sodomized to death with bayonets. Funny stuff.
@ Tujays
A little tangential but not much in the sense of “what’s wrong with the modern Democratic Party,” but I thought readers here might find this article thought provoking:
http://www.vox.com/2016/4/21/11451378/smug-american-liberalism
I’m not going to try and defend my hypocrisy regarding the fair critique of my comments that, at times, are of precisely the quality and tenor of what Emmett Rensin is trying to get “progressives/liberals/leftists” to reconsider i.e. ridiculing or shaming people who I perceive have different “values,” or because they don’t appear to be in possession of the “facts,” or because their reasoning on an issue is coherent, inconsistent or flawed.
In my defense I will say that I’ve always agreed with Rensin that it is foolish and counterproductive to abandon a huge slice of human beings, or the electorate, because it is difficult to engage with them, their values, their perception of facts, or their way of reasoning or to find common ground in our shared humanity.
Prof. George Lakoff has written about a related idea extensively–that our failure as “progressives/liberals/leftists” to persuade others to our moral and political worldview is primarily a function of an overreliance on “reason/facts” as persuasive touchstones, or strategy, rather than appealing emotionally to our shared human morality (to the extent it exists in country of 300 + million), shared human aspirations and common values (fairness, honesty, integrity, family, friends, meaningful worklives, education, peaceful existence . . . etc.).
And how important it is to do so without culturally ridiculing, shaming or “otherizing” large groups of people who might otherwise share many of your values if not ultimately the goals or means of obtaining those goals.
Again, I won’t try and defend my hypocrisy in that sense at least as a function of my internet commenting history. For those who know me in the real world, you’d know that I’m by nature a peacemaker until backed into a corner, personally attacked, or in the presence of another being attacked. I actually prefer the company of “regular folks” as opposed to “elites” (particularly in my profession) as a function of the amount of time I actually choose to spend with each. Which is not to say that there aren’t those from both groups whose company I enjoy, opinions I respect and am challenged by, as well as those I don’t from both groups. And if you knew me in real life, you’d know I generally never display the disdain or hostility that I do at times in my written comments here which I think is more a function of the medium in ways drawing out the worst impulses in humans at a communicative level rather than innate hostility towards others or their opinions.
Anyway, just thought some might find the article interesting. Moreover, there were a lot of related things written by Corey Robin, Freddie DeBoer and others that were spawned from related exchanges with Jonathan Chait who I find generally to be quite tedious and a perfect exemplar of what is wrong with the modern Democratic Party political, cultural and economic elite–generally speaking.
But the older I get, at least in the real world, the more I appreciate how important it is to have empathy for everyone (even those whose worldview you disagree with if not despise) and how important it is to make the effort to understand the circumstances and values that animate others worldviews and choices. It is only in that striving to understand others, rather than as Resnin rightly articulates knowing you are better informed, more rational or right thinking, that we/I will be able to have a chance at persuading others, challenging their beliefs and facts, and ultimately building the human coalitions and relationships necessary to achieve some of the goals consistent with my worldview.
I always take it as sort of a compliment when I meet new folks in the social circles of my “regular folks” friends, who after talking for awhile, getting to know you and having fun, that they are surprised by what I do for a living because I’m not snobby or come off like some know-it-all even when I engage them on something I think they are misinformed about.
Does your capacity for empathy enable you to consider the possibility that a substantial amount of HRC’s support might be explained by something other than sociopathic indifference to Muslim suffering?
The frontrunner for the GOP nomination has proposed banning Muslim immigration, promised a torture regime that would be “much worse” than mere waterboarding (what do you suppose would be the religious affiliation of those most likely to be tortured?), threatened to murder the families of (Muslim) terror suspects, and refused to rule out using nuclear weapons (on Muslims) in the Mid-East.
The GOP frontrunner’s leading challenger wants to “find out” if “sand glows in the dark.”
Think one of those guys would be good for Muslims if he became president? Have you considered the possibility that some HRC supporters feel that among the Democrats who ran for president in 2016, she has the best chance of preventing the devastation they have promised?
Gator90
Primary talk is just that – primary talk. Barack Obama did win the Nobel Peace Prize – and has been droning all over the Middle East and North Africa since. Trump has taken the debates into the gutter and the others have followed, but that is very unlikely to be how they govern.
Hillary is a hawk though suggesting a no fly zone over Syria (for humanitarian reasons). She voted for the Iraq war and the intervention in Libya so she will not hesitate to pull the trigger. She is going to win the Presidency by the width of the Grand Canyon so we will see.
I don’t recall Obama campaigning for the Nobel Peace Prize, which he was given simply for not being Dubya. I think he even said he was unworthy of it when he accepted it.
Sometimes people, even politicians, really do mean what they say. Given what Trump and Cruz have said, it doesn’t seem like a risk worth taking.
It is far from clear to me that Trump is certain to lose in the general election, though I hope you and others who say that are right.
By itching to start WWIII and cackling “We Came, We Saw, They died”?
America held accountable for a crime against humanity.seriously, you must be out of your mind.unless you say anything against the Zionists,then you will be held accountable.
Kitt posted this in earlier commentary on The Intercept and it is very important to consider:-
Democracy Now “Rejecting U.S. Claims, MSF Details Horrific Bombing of Afghan Hospital & Demands War Crimes Probe”
Video and transcript
JASON CONE: Well, our review essentially confirms what we said even in the first few days after the attack, which was—which is that the hospital always was under our control, that we were treating people from all sides of the conflict, that at no time—in fact, that night was very—the night of the attack and those early hours in the morning of Saturday, October 3rd, was really the first calm day that we had experienced that week. We had treated about 376 wounded during the week. That Friday night, in fact, the medical team had planned surgeries they had not been able to do and were in the midst of actually putting people under anesthesia when the attack unfolded. And so, in spite of the unnamed sources that have said otherwise, the hospital, from our perspective, remained in our control, and it was still in the same location, obviously, that the GPS coordiates we had shared days before at the same time.
…
We want to look at this through the lens of international humanitarian law.
…
It’s going to be a war crime if it—you know, knowing that our hospital was a civilian structure. It should have never lost that status. We were always communicating its location. It’s a responsibility of the warring parties to be able to distinguish between civilian and military targets. From our perspective, they failed to do so. We were given no warning before the attack—that’s also a precondition. This isn’t about intent. There’s been a lot of discussion about whether or not this was a mistake. This is not necessarily the threshold that has to be crossed for this to constitute a grave breach of international humanitarian law.
Those snips are important but the entire interview is equally as important.
It was all just a terrible mistake – of course it was :
A mistake that the US officials claimed originally that the hospital was targeted because they had come under fire from the area.
A mistake that the Afghan Defence Ministry said “armed terrorists” were using the hospital “as a position to target Afghan forces and civilians”
A mistake that this atrocity, which breached International Humanitarian Laws, and The Laws of War was blocked from being investigated independently as requested by the MSF.
A mistake that videos and sound recordings, communications between the pilots and their control centre have not been released.
A mistake that the US were informed of the hospitals co-ordinates days ahead of the attack, and yet still mounted n attack on it.
A mistake to breach Humanitarian Laws which ban any attacks on patients, medical personnel.
A mistake to breach the laws of war which require that even if military forces misuse a hospital to deploy combatants or weapons, the attacking force must issue a warning to cease the misuse. A reasonable time must be given for it to end, and an attack must only be launched after it has been ignored.
A mistake to pay out such poultry and insulting levels of compensation for the deaths and injuries suffered.
A mistake to not bring criminal charges against those responsible, and those that were in charge, and who ordered or authorised the attack.
Perhaps the biggest mistake would be for anyone to believe that this whitewash, coming from the US Department of Defence with that “questionable track record of policing itself” is anything but a cover up of a deliberate war crime.
For anyone that doubts that the US has a questionable, and long standing historical record of policing itself, and in investigating it’s own war crimes, suggest they read the book “Kill anything that Moves” by Nick Turse
What kind of response should we expect from the U.S. government while they are also busy financially supporting the NGO “The White Helmets”?:
“The Syria White Helmets Exposed as US UK Agents Embedded with Al Nusra and ISIS”:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5k6hSS6xBTw&ebc=ANyPxKqiDJef0htrR1vsGeMJrdV9Qq6DKYXczQZLaulZbTkfjyDdZQbjbHQhZNlURkH5OFAwJ6De&app=desktop
Some of the articles I have seen implied that this may have been intentional. I never thought for a single second this was intentional. However, accidently killing all those doctors and civilians is nonetheless a major screw up. The penalties doled out were laughably inadequate. A whole bunch of people in the military should have been given dishonorable discharges over that screw up and possibly some time in Ft Leavenworth.
“MSF continues to insist that the attack was a “war crime” and must be investigated by an independent tribunal under the Geneva Conventions.”
The US Government considers the Geneva Conventions as inimical to US interests.
Can’t make that determination without substantially more information than provided here, Glenn. The Guardian article linked only says “Neither the ICRC nor MSF assigned blame for the attack, but the Syrian and Russian air forces have carried out almost all the aerial strikes on the opposition-controlled east of the city.”
*this photo accompanying the Guardian article is apocalyptic http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/28/deadly-airstrike-on-hospital-aleppo-syria-reports-say#img-1
ps. perhaps, if Syrian/Russian forces are responsible for the MSF attack in Apello, an internal investigation by Assad/Putin would assuage Sec Kerry’s “outrage”?
If you are going to critique this story, at least be accurate in your description of the events. The hospital was not bombed! The hospital compound was attacked with kinetic fire by an AC-130 gunship which carries no bombs. There was no bombing, but rather a sustained attack with cannon and howitzer kinetic weapons for over an hour. Your credibility suffers when your zeal for journalist bombast outweighs the accuracy of your reporting.
A bomb is a kinetic weapon ,too, having a velocity at least equal to the speed of the aircraft delivering it (minus a little drag and + gravity). A howitzer shell is a bomb with an extra push.
Your distinction has no difference but, don’t worry, we know what you were aiming for …
Depends which variant of the gunship you’re talking about, Sherlock. The -W and -J have wing mounted bombs and missiles:
Wing mounted, AGM-114 Hellfire missiles, GBU-39 Small Diameter Bombs (SDBs) and/or GBU-53/B SDB IIs
The -39 and -53 are precision guided and weigh approx 200-250 lbs, so don’t let the “small diameter” part fool you- they are very lethal.
Craig “Whataboutery” Summers.
(h/t Presumptuous Insect.)
aka Fractal Wrongness
Sure, but what happened to the squirrel? *I’m confident Craig ‘fainting goat’ Summers will be very polite when/if he has you and PI tortured and that’s got to count for something …
~ aside. my oh my, the deep state NYTs has the ‘official’ account front page above the fold: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/30/world/asia/afghanistan-doctors-without-borders-hospital-strike.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news *do read the comments
*I lost count at about half a dozen glaring inconsistencies …
ps. $6k is an insult … but $3k adds insult to injury.
SURGEON GENERAL’S WARNING: Discussing politics with CraigSummers could lead to support for torture and authoritarianism, belief that war is the best form of diplomacy, drones terrorize the terrorists, and colonialism made the world a better place – and may complicate pregnancy.
She couldn’t locate it! #tragedy
Mr. Greenwald
“……Yesterday in Syria, an MSF-run hospital was targeted with an airstrike, almost certainly deliberately, by what was very likely the Syrian government or the Russians, killing at least 50 patients and doctors, including one of the last pediatricians in Aleppo…….”
That is all we will hear from the Intercept about the war in Syria responsible for as many as 400,000 deaths – a begrudging acknowledgement of another hospital destroyed in a war zone by someone other than the US. The Intercept will continue to cover the really important stories like the $300,000 dollars given by a pro-Israel billionaire to a pro-Israel candidate (exclusively at the Intercept). According to the first update from your article (“One Day After Warning Russia of Civilian Casualties, the U.S. Bombs a Hospital in Afghanistan”):
“…….It’s impossible to fathom what the U.S. media would be saying and doing if Russia did something like this in Syria……”
But it is not impossible to fathom what the Intercept will be saying about the bombing of the hospital in Aleppo last week by the Syrian government – absolutely nothing – which is the exact same amount of ink that the intercept used on the Russian bombings of medical facilities in Syria. This was pointed out (rightly) by Daily Beast writer, Sam Charles Hamad:
“…….There is a gruesomely perfect example of this hypocrisy that has been visible this month relating to the U.S. war crime in Kunduz. Since Russia decided to directly intervene on behalf of the Assad regime primarily against not ISIS, as it had stated, but rather the moderate rebel forces that fight both the Assad regime and ISIS, it has carried out no less than four confirmed attacks on medical facilities, while it has also deliberately targeted ambulances. The reaction of the left to Kunduz was one of near apoplectic outrage, but among none of the major organizations or individuals of the left will you find even a quotidian acknowledgement of the continued attacks by Russia on medical facilities in Syria…….”
Your hypocrisy is apparent when the same Doctors Without Borders organization is destroyed by the Syrian regime – or attacked by Russian war planes – without an article among the 30 journalists at the Intercept.
Please discount any information that you may receive from Syrian Observatory for Human Rights. Its a fake website putting up fabricated “news” cooked up in a hotel.
Maybe. I am skeptical of the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights , but a lot of news organizations use their data. Of course, they are anti-regime so they have a political agenda…..Hmmmm, where have we seen that before?.
Moderate rebel forces? Yeah, a fantasy in the minds of our plutocrats in DC. There is nothing moderate about these folks and yes, they are aligned with ISIS, Al Nusra, and Al Qaida.
“…….they are aligned with ISIS, Al Nusra, and Al Qaida…..”
To defeat the Syrian regime, but not with each other. Al-Qaeda and ISIS have been squabbling for years competing for funding from various sources. The opposition to the brutal Syrian regime is as fractured as the Middle East and the US has been bombing al-Qaeda and ISIS in Syria (but not the Syrian rebels.
We just can’t make our brave and honorable soldiers feel guilty, guilty and guilty all the time. A few times I have also made mistakes and taken out some folks thinking they were enemies. So I can understand how our soldiers themselves feel whenever mistakes occur and a few extra people are killed while attacking vicious Muslim murdering pigs without having expert non-combatants like Mr Greenwald here and Mona rubbing it in.
The real problem here is that this is becoming a regular affair these days, so we need to train our soldiers better to fire properly at the target instead or all around it. Anyone without beard and wearing trousers covering the ankles is probably an innocent person who should not be targeted unless he shouts Alahuakbars at the wrong time.
Fighting your senseless war has made you a callous person, clearly insensitive to others’ suffering. Those soldiers in the plane that bombed the Afghan hospital had plenty of info to know it was a hospital & certainly did not need an hour to bomb the place out of existence. It was a war crime & those guys need to be tried for that.
We need to quit pretending we can always kill all the enemies where they live. If you think poisoning the entire planet to kill all the cockroaches will work, you might be right.
What should seal the argument of US culpability is the diametrically opposed attitude according to who is bombing hospitals and killing doctors (or markets, or schools, …). If it is a tragic accident when US soldiers fire hundreds of rounds into a medical facility, how can it not also be simply an accident when someone else drops a bomb on one? The answer, of course, is that the degree to which it is an accident depends upon the level of technical capability and training of the forces engaged. It then follows that the likelihood that the Syrians or Taliban, with their vastly inferior systems and training, must certainly be much more likely to commit tragic mistakes than the technically superior, highly trained Americans and Israelis. Now there is an argument I would love to see debated at the UN.
How many more MSF facilities have to be hit before they simply pack up and go home, or disband altogether? Seriously — I don’t think they are recruiting doctors to die, exactly. And what is the effect of this?
“They” will not pack up and go home.
“They” are living an honourable life helping others.
“They” will not be dissuaded with threat of honourable death.
“They” are different than most.
“They” may be distinguished from others by their love.
“They” remind me of someone, Guess who.
‘Physical-cowardice’ in US, Canadian, NATO & Israeli colonial soldiers follows ‘intellectual-cowardice’ being too mentally insecure to ‘DEBATE’ (French ‘de’ = ‘undo’ + ‘bate’ = ‘the-fight’) perceived enemies. Given our control over many regimes such as Israel, we must require that all aid must be tied to convening debate among all parties. At home we must require debate in all schools, workplaces, institutions, military, government etc. Typically each stakeholder group is invited to convene debate among themselves & choose spokespersons to debate other parties.
In conflict at home & worldwide, we’ve 2 choices to:
1) believe finance-media-education-military-industrial-complex, demonize others while armouring to launch pre-emptive war & create hell,
2) engage others in formal equal-time recorded & published dialogues.
Mohandas Gandhi developed ‘SATYAGRAHA’ (Hindi ‘truth-search’) based upon inquiry with both parties to dispute &/or research asking, “What are your best intentions & how can we help you fulfill these?”, “I can imagine a fully armed man to be at heart a coward. Possession of arms implies an element of fear, if not cowardice. But true non-violence is an impossibility without the possession of unadulterated fearlessness.”
We need transparency in all levels of human interaction including military, government, education & business listening to both sides. https://sites.google.com/site/indigenecommunity/structure/both-sides-now-equal-time-recorded-dialogues
It pains me to say this, as an American, but at this point it appears that my beloved homeland is deserving of international sanctions for many of the same reasons as Russia was recently. My peers have repeatedly elected Stasi scum, and this is the fruit of our collective decisions.
I agree that an independent investigation is absolutely needed. Also, the compensation to the families is a disgrace. The rest of the article is lazy and inferior to other accounts including your own colleague’s.
You have plainly dismissed the results of the Military report before you examined it!? That’s unacceptable. If you are going to claim indifference, then at least read and scrutinize the report! Point out shortcomings and inconsistencies. But you rely on outdated or weak information to bolster your point. You say there is ample evidence to support MSF allegations of a deliberate attack and your dated explanatory link contains three things: (1) Green Berets requesting the airstrikes were aware of the facility being a hospital, (2) the hospital was brightly lit, and (3) the hospital roof had a large MSF flag.
No. 1 (green berets) has become irrelevant when we learned that the AC130 crew failed to comply with the mission requested by them (Special Operations). The plane was told to attack a different building and after entering the requested grid coordinates, ended up by a field. So they inexplicably selected the target based on physical description and ended up shooting up the hospital.
So one of your “ample” pieces of evidence is severely outdated and doesn’t align with your journalist’s updated account of what occurred. As for Nos 2&3, Jeong says the gunship was firing from 7,000 feet in the air. From that altitude could you clearly see the sign or characteristics of a hospital? Also, you seem to ignore claims that Kunduz had a level of fighting and intensity that was unique. You don’t consider the fog of war and uncertainty that occurs on a battlefield. At least your colleague May Jeong seemed to grasp this: “The picture that emerges from these firsthand accounts, as well as from interviews with several high-ranking Afghan officials, is one of remarkable chaos and uncertainty, even by the standards of war.” Presumably a critical communications systems failed, “resulting in an inability to receive updates from and transmit information to multiple command headquarters.”
The more we hear about this, the more I’d argue it was, at best a huge mistake, at worst reckless. It could be caused by many things: bad leadership, terrible communication, dumb decisions based on unresolved conditions. But your claims of intentionally firing is simply not grounded in evidence.
Alert to readers.
“Nate” has long been in the habit of posting utter bullshit in this space. Today is no exception. If you made it through his dense doggerel to the last sentence, it was this nonsense:
Greenwald never wrote anything like that about the U.S. bombing in Kunduz; he wrote that the bombing of MSF in Allepo, likely by Syria or Russia, was “almost certainly deliberate[].”
That will be the extent of the time or attention I give to Nate’s prattle. He is an energy sink, and that’s all I’m willing to do.
Mona
You are totally fucked up Mona. What you really want is a comment section without any disagreement with your point of view – and alerting other readers just indicates how dense you believe most of the below the line posters are on this site. Hey…..I just think I found a point of agreement between us.
Thanks Mona.
https://theintercept.com/2016/03/18/brazil-is-engulfed-by-ruling-class-corruption-and-a-dangerous-subversion-of-democracy/?comments=1#comment-212423
By the way, excellent comment Nate.
I spilled a beverage, again, honestly. Club soda just made the stain bigger.
Ah, the “fog of war”. In other words, the crew of the gunship had no idea what it was doing, and therefore what they did was not a war crime. And once they started firing, they just couldn’t stop. Is that any way to run the American military?
By the way, the above description applies also to “the most moral army in the world”, except in their case there is no doubt about intent.
I never said it was not a war crime. I just said there hasn’t been evidence of being intentional.
Adolf had no idea. He just wanted results. Himmler had the organisation to spearhead the production effort. The guy under Himmler had friends who were corporate ceo’s in the business who were willing to go vertical in the market and subcontract to factory owners who didn’t want to pay minimum wage so they got some private contractors involved who had some connections with private prisons which were expensive and could benefit from getting prisoners to work off their debts.
Sound familiar? There is always some excuse.
The first atomic bomb to hit Japan wasn’t really necessary. The second bomb was absolutely un-necessary but they wanted to see the effects after all they put into it – and besides – killing civilians wasn’t really a war crime then. Even if it was, what the hell.
There’s always some excuse.
Guantanamo. It’s all legal. In fact we wrote up this special argument from the hand of god himself to prove it and there it is.
There’s always some excuse.
Straight out the gate with a Hitler comparison. your desperation is palpable.
PS: Saying Hitler “had no idea” is just plain dumb.
So the attack went ahead when the proper procedure could not be followed. “Fog of war?” Bullshit. I think you can make the case that this meets the “reckless” provision of the war crime definition.
“Fog of war” would apply if the plane were under attack at that time and an immediate decision has to be made to take out the site where the attack was coming from in order to save the plane. Nobody is claiming that because it is clear that that is not what happened.
Why yes, Nate, any fucking idiot knows that you could. How to convince you? Well, 7,000 feet is about the distance from which a really good sniper can take out a target with a rifle and scope. That is, with a single shot from hand held equipment into a critical spot on a fellow human being. You think the most expensive and sophisticated gunship in the world does not have better optical equipment?
If by “really good sniper” you mean the 6th longest confirmed kill. Just an FYI, snipers don’t take those distanced shots from moving helicopters. I thought this was common sense, but here we are…
Also, why presume when you can read the actual report which has been released? I won’t hold my breath!
http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/2014/08/22/south-africa-at-war-in-the-drc–the-inside-story
What? The point here is that you can see well enough from 7000 feet. That was what you were questioning. And if seeing conditions were so bad that they could not…
As I’m sure most readers here know, If Hillary Clinton is the next POTUS, not only will none of this change, it will get worse. Sanders isn’t super good on militarism, but I don’t think he’d do this hospital-bombing crap.
You are an idiot if you think the bombing of the hospital was a White House directive.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plausible_deniability
I don’t think ignorance is an acceptable excuse for POTUS.
“……..I don’t think ignorance is an acceptable excuse for POTUS……”
I agree, but that is a lot different than a White House directive to bomb the hospital.
wmd falsification was a white house directive.
invading iraq was a white house directive.
torturing some folks was a white house directive.
not prosecuting warcrimes was a white house directive.
allowing israel to genocide palestinians was/is a white house directive.
ALLOWING THE FOG OF WAR IS A WHITE HOUSE DIRECTIVE – from the commander in chief himself.
No it is you who is the idiot, because the WH sits atop the chain of command. The case of General Yamashita provides a perfect precedent. He was hung after trial by the US forces for war crimes committed in Manila by troops under his command even though he was not in a position to control them at the time. And then of course there was Hitler, who as far as can be established never killed a single Jew, Gypsy, disabled person, or communist but who would nonetheless have been prosecuted for war crimes had he survived.
The Jews have a saying I think that equates the saving of a single life to saving of mankind; the logical corollary of which is that to murder one is no less morally reprehensible than to murder a multitude. A concept admittedly beyond the comprehension of most apologists for US war crimes.
“……No it is you who is the idiot, because the WH sits atop the chain of command. The case of General Yamashita provides a perfect precedent. He was hung after trial by the US forces for war crimes committed in Manila by troops under his command even though he was not in a position to control them at the time. And then of course there was Hitler, who as far as can be established never killed a single Jew, Gypsy, disabled person, or communist but who would nonetheless have been prosecuted for war crimes had he survived……”
The President is Commander and Chief of the armed forces. Ultimately, he can be held responsible. However, a “directive” from the White House is entirely different:
“”…..directive: an official or authoritative instruction……”
The White House never issued a directive to bomb the hospital. So you are the idiot, OK?
the whole fucking war was a White House directive
The u.s. is the world leader in violating every law, every trade agreement, every currency manipulation, and every moral on the planet. Bar none, no-one does it better that the U.S. gov and their corporate partners.
Since WW2, committing atrocities assassinations genocide of vietnames etc, bombing a hospital was easy.
The USG has no conscience at all. They allow criminal wallstreet to rob America, they falsify evidence to start a war and invade a country, they grab people and torture them, they assist in the genocide of Palestians….
The difference between the U.S. and Nazi Germany is ________________.
barabbas:
You just nailed it! I guess Nazi Germany had to many FANS!
zilch (filling in the blank)
The more the only law to which the U.S. government subscribes is “its own interests” the more everyone in the world, including its own citizens, will recognize that hypocrisy and be doing the same. Until the GWB era architects of war crimes and all since, whether giving the orders or providing quasi-official legal cover, face trial and the consequences of their actions – the rule of law is a joke that does not exist. Empire’s predatory capitalism foundation only has one law, profit, with all else secondary to that god – including life on Earth.
exactly correct. And the failure of President Obama in 2009 to recognise that, is shocking and disppointing to the nth degree. Reprehensible.
This entire debacle will remain a curse upon America. It will make fools of congress. These fools will challenge china and russia. And when the day comes for the face off, the US will make a demand for china to back off, and china will refuse and with both hands, shove US. And the US will blink at having the bluff called.
Then what.
I believe Sanders and Trump are aware of that.
How convenient that all video feeds were not working on the C130 that conducted the bombardment –they were at it for more than an hour according to The Guardian.
Perfect explanation for covering up evidence.
“. . . by what was very likely the Syrian government or the Russians, killing at least 50 patients and doctors, including one of the last pediatricians in Aleppo.”
Any contacts who could help you ascertain who bombed this hospital?
Of course I agree that Kerry has no moral credibility to condemn.
I echo this request: Please Glenn provide evidence for this accusation or rephrase that part of the article.
Mr. Greenwald
“……..On behalf of the U.S. government, Secretary of State John Kerry pronounced: “We are outraged by yesterday’s airstrikes in Aleppo on the al Quds hospital supported by both Doctors Without Borders and the International Committee of the Red Cross, which killed dozens of people, including children, patients and medical personnel.” On the list of those with even minimal credibility to denounce that horrific airstrike, Kerry and his fellow American officials do not appear…..”
That is just ignorance on your part. The US and Russia negotiated a cease fire which has held for a month (for the most part). Certainly, this was designed to pressure Russia to rein in their brutal ally, Syria – and try to maintain the fragile and faltering cease fire. Civilians are being killed daily in Aleppo as the war is ramping up again. The statement by Kerry was political motivated couched in humanitarian terms (something the Intercept is really good at).
oh shut up
>their brutal ally, Syria
>civilians are being killed
The problem, once again, begins in the west. We have spent the last 4 years pushing regime change at any cost, including arming and training the groups that would eventually coalesce into Daesh.
How many millions of lives and trillions of dollars should continue to be wasted on “regime change” in the region?
“Pentagon: Afghan hospital properly entered on no-strike list, but gunship crew had no ‘ready access’ to list during deadly attack.”
I see. That the hospital and cross were lit up like an auto-dealer’s sales lot matters not apparently.
NBC went to great lengths, last night, to explain why the Aleppo bombing was indeed a war crime committed by the Syrian government.
And Aljazeera is reporting 3 more medical clinics were hit this morning.
Second to last paragraph is absolutely true. Perfect summary of our current direction.
Number of people asking of accountability during this election season?: I haven’t met ANY.
With a motto like “TRUTH – JUSTICE – The AMERICAN WAY”.. what do you expect …..as the government hides and protects WAR CRIMINALS
A couple of sign errors in your algebra. The correct equation is:
The AMERICAN WAY = – Truth – Justice
Another, equivalent expression is to use the inverses of the negative terms:
The AMERICAN way = Lies + Injustice
I read on antiwar this morning that
Seems fair. (/s) They did end those doctor’s careers, after all.
http://news.antiwar.com/2016/04/28/pentagon-16-face-administrative-discipline-over-kunduz-hospital-attack/
*doctors’
i was being sarcastic about a wrist slap when i first heard the words uttered about the consequences for murdering the doctors and others… and then i heard *reprimand* and wanted to throw up.
These wardogs are sick ficks. They are running and ruining America. Wallstreet will not put one dime into infrastructure because they operate on the principle of BUILD TO BANKRUPT TO BUY. (it’s called evil).
i would court martial every one of them.
As far as I know, the US still hasn’t released it’s information on MH-17.
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2015/07/obama-should-release-mh-17-intel.html
Not only the people who ordered the strike are guilty, but also the individual soldiers.
“Yesterday in Syria, an MSF-run hospital was targeted with an airstrike, almost certainly deliberately, by what was very likely the Syrian government or the Russians…”
I don’t think so. The Russians, who have been outstandingly open and honest, stated that none of their aircraft was even near Aleppo in the past few days. They also mentioned that there were indications that American aircraft had been seen approaching Aleppo. One remembers the bombing of the power station near Aleppo, similarly blamed on the Russians, but more likely done by the USA.
As well as the Kunduz hospital, by the way, four other MSF hospitals were recently bombed – in Yemen. Do you think the Syrians or the Russians did those too?
It’s so often difficult to know whether Poe’s Law is in play.
It’s definitely the Russians or the Syrian government, no one else is flying all over and dropping barrel all over. This is really not a questionable statement. So just accept that fact like an adult. Also, The Russians don’t really have a track record proving their compliance with international law. So it’s seems crazy to me how you are defending them. But they are not very stupid, that’s why my money is on the Syrian government whose weapon of choice to kill civilians has been barrel bombs
Talking about facts like an adult:
– Why should it be only the Syrian or Russian gov which fly there and drop the barrel bombs? There is a huge mess of flight activity over Syria, with planes from several countries and many armed + unarmed drones. The US just recently announced that they sent B-52 bombers to Syria, next to the F-15 and F-22 (and maybe others) which have been flying missions there.
Why is this not questionable?
– Why do you only blame Russia for “not having a track record for following international law”. Tell me an example where Russia doesn’t – especially in the case of Syria. What the US, Turkey, Saudi-Arabia and others do, is actually REALLY against international law – already by simply invading Syrian airspace.
– What right does the US coalition take, to decide what government Syria should have? What right do they take to support extremist islamists with weapons to destroy the Assad government? Why does Syria not have the right to be a sovereign state?
– What about all the barrel bombing by the FSA, Al Nusra and al Quada? Why all the destruction by same groups with US delivered BGM-71 TOW rocket launchers? Why should a foreign country deliver weapons into a country to forcefully bring down government?
– Why should the Syrian people accept an extremist islamic government, when they were more or less happy with Assad? Btw – don’t start with those fake arguments that Assad started the war. There is no prove till today that Assad ever went against his own people and the UN denies it as well. Syria never was a dream democracy (I mean which country is other than maybe Switzerland), but the country was peaceful, a save heaven for Christians (many Orthodox churches there – those which aren’t destroyed yet by islamist opposition) as well as Muslims. There even was tourism and cities like Damaskus with their famous basars were well visited.
I went several times to a “party-holiday-place” on Cyprus – right next to Syria. I talked to many Syrian tourists during those holidays and nobody ever complained about Assad. The last time I went to Cyprus was in summer 2012 and two dudes told us joking, that they’ll stay on Cyprus till the “islamists stop the attacks” – sadly 2012 is long ago and nothing changed. Assad only became evil when the Western establishment decided to turn him into an evil figure.
Well, I stop writing here. I don’t want to take any position nor defend Russia (which I don’t see as always honest, albeit they are much more open an informative about what they’re doing in Syria compared to US coalition). I’m Swiss and I have nothing to do with Russia, but I’m terribly sad how much is being lied about Syria and how one of the most progressive countries in this region (woman-rights, freedom of religion etc) is being completely destroyed.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/07/magazine/the-agency.html?_r=0
The NYT magazine article is just one of the many that describes how the Kremlin troll factory operates. You, Marco, are trying too hard and are too easy to spot. Enjoy the “open and informative” Putin’s Russia.
@kassandra: Funny how you describe me as a Russian troll. It’s the weapon of those who have no arguments. This article is ridiculous and I’m suprised a The Intercept reader recommends the NYTimes. Maybe you take a look into how modern warfare works – should be an interesting research for you.
You can also find articles in European newspapers about US PR-Agencies which work the same or even in a more intrusive way than those “Kremlin troll factories”. I believe you can find such PR-Agencies everywhere in the world – works the same in private economy & marketing. Funny though how your media totally misuses the world troll – which has a total different meaning before it turned in to a combat term created by those warmongers.
Some Americans (incl. politicians and media) use those unproven stories to silence every voice against their propaganda. Pretty much like George W. Bush: “Either you’re with us or against us.” That stuff doesn’t apply to me and reminds me of a guy who took over the German gov in 1933. Sadly it looks like those Goebbels propaganda-tactics, which could convince the German people to start all those deadly wars, are still up and alive.
Unfortunately I don’t speek Russian and can’t show you your “Troll factories”. But visit Europe, talk to the refugees from Syria, Lybia, Irak, Afghanistan and ask them what they think about US interventions (some with help of several other countries incl. EU-ones), nationbuilding- and regimechange-wars. Additionally study the history of the Middle East and Northern Africa starting from 1900 (where European countries started to create a huge mess) – yep, it’s a long read and a lot to think. But if you wanna discuss the Syrian conflict you should better do that.
Since you are an The Intercept reader (btw. a great newspaper and I wished there was a Swiss version of it) you shouldn’t be very attached to the mainstream war propaganda. You’ll also realize that not everything outside the US is “Kremlin Troll Land”. It’s not worth to hate other countries and people like your government wants you to in order to justify wars. Do you really think a government which is ready to (and did) kill millions would do any good to its own people? Looks what’s going on in the US or also more and more in EU – it’s not us normal people who benefit from all those actions!
Talking about Syria: Libya is another recent case. Check once what and how Libya was before “Western democracy intervention” and how it looks there right now. It’s miserable and sad – but check for it yourself.
Sorry to surprise you with a different opinion – I’m against imperialism and fascism and hope people like you open the eyes finally – before it’s really to late (maybe it already is). Good luck!
Your Syrian, Libyan, Swiss, Russian-Troll
At this point there is absolutely no evidence that it was the Syrian or Russian military which bombed the hospital. Those allegation, videos and photos are all privided by the so called “White Helmets”-organisation (Soros funded and embedded with Al Nusra) and UK-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights.
Sadly it’s nothing new, that such organisations are used or even created for war propaganda. It’s important to interpreted such events with caution – unfortunately most media outlets, incl. the German ones I mainly read, just copy each other and consider every organisation as trustworthy and independant without further investigation.
There are also several reports that the US supported FSA (“moderate rebels”) have been bombing civilian areas of Aleppo with barrel bombs – they even proudly upload their use of those barrel bombs on Youtube. Just yesterday there was a report of several deaths and around 50 injured in the christian city quarter Midan (Aleppo).
Since I’m not on side – like pretty much all of us – it’s impossible to prove what’s really happening there. But in case of the reported hospital bombing – who will most benefit from this incident and the claim it was a Syrian and/or Russian attack? Certainly not the accused ones.
Don’t blindly believe the media, do your own research and always consider all involved parties in such conflicts. Often we also have to accept that we can’t know everything and can’t always find the guilty ones.
“But that’s par for the course in a country that has granted full-scale legal immunity for those who perpetrated the most egregious crimes: from the systemic fraud that caused the 2008 financial crisis to the worldwide regime of torture the U.S. government officially implemented”.
Let’s not forget the shooting down of Iran Air 655 by the USS Vincennes. This was a specialized, state-of-the-art guided missile defence ship, designed to be able to defend a carrier task force single-handed against a rain of dozens of incoming aircraft and missiles. Yet supposedly it could not tell the difference between a standard civil airliner climbing on its scheduled course at its scheduled time, and an F-14 Tomcat descending to attack! Subsequent investigations found that all the equipment functioned faultlessly, but the panicky human operators misread the displays and shot down the Airbus. Outcome: no apology, a ceremoniously formal refusal to apologize by Vice President George H.W. Bush, and decorations and promotions for the officers and crew.
Have you looked at the airplane profiles? An F-14 looks almost exactly like a civilian Airbus passenger jet, and if calculus students don’t distinguish between ascending and descending, why should anyone else? In all probability, all of the passengers on the jet, or their descendants, would no doubt have attempted to attack the US at some point anyway, so an ounce of pre-emption…
End the FED, and all the global counterfeiting fiat central banks. They are Bombs without Costs because the citizenry “paying” for them do so through invisible inflation rather than direct taxation. Humans are generally decent, but they also must be triggered by profit-loss type motivations.
Maybe this is really all we have left… To just keep heightening the contradictions until people simply cannot take it any more. Crank it up, Glenn. Just keep cranking it up.
Same. There’s nothing left to be done but what Glenn and others are doing. At some point “they” are left with only two options: 1. Find a way to kill the global media that has broken away from the confines of cable “news,” or 2. modify behavior as the demand for change engendered by new media reaches a tipping point.
Yeah, while we’re on #1: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2016/04/11/how-facebook-is-slowly-eating-the-rest-of-the-internet/
I expect but more attacks on freedom of expression. Starting with the evil pedophile bogeymen, as always.
Thanks for keeping this story out in the light, Glenn!