The Paper of Record refuses to call Israeli occupation what it is.
(updated below)
In January, U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-Moon delivered a speech to the Security Council about, as he put it, violence “in Israel and the occupied Palestinian territory,” noting that “Palestinian frustration is growing under the weight of a half century of occupation” and that “it is human nature to react to occupation.” His use of the word “occupation” was not remotely controversial because multiple U.N. Security Resolutions, such as 446 (adopted unanimously in 1979 with 3 abstentions), have long declared Israel the illegal “occupying power” in the West Bank and Gaza. Unsurprisingly, newspapers around the world – such as the Wall Street Journal, the Guardian, the BBC, the LA Times – routinely and flatly describe Israeli control of the West Bank and Gaza in their news articles as what it is: an occupation.
In fact, essentially the entire world recognizes the reality of Israeli occupation with the exception of a tiny sliver of extremists in Israel and the U.S. That’s why Chris Christie had to grovel in apology to GOP billionaire and Israel-devoted fanatic Sheldon Adelson when the New Jersey Governor neutrally described having seen the “occupied territories” during a trip he took to Israel. But other than among those zealots, the word is simply a fact, used without controversy under the mandates of international law, the institutions that apply it, and governments on every continent on the planet.
But not the New York Times. They are afraid to use the word. In a NYT article today by Jason Horowitz and Maggie Haberman on the imminent conflict over Israel and Palestine between Sanders-appointed and Clinton-appointed members of the Democratic Party Platform Committee, this grotesque use of scare quotes appears:
A bitter divide over the Middle East could threaten Democratic Party unity as representatives of Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont vowed to upend what they see as the party’s lopsided support of Israel.
Two of the senator’s appointees to the party’s platform drafting committee, Cornel West and James Zogby, on Wednesday denounced Israel’s “occupation” of the West Bank and Gaza and said they believed that rank-and-file Democrats no longer hewed to the party’s staunch support of the Israeli government. They said they would try to get their views incorporated into the platform, the party’s statement of core beliefs, at the Democratic National Convention in Philadelphia in July.
The refusal to use the word occupation without scare quotes is one of the most cowardly editorial decisions the New York Times has made since refusing to use the word “torture” because the Bush administration denied its validity (a decision they reversed only when President Obama in 2014 gave them permission to do so by using the word himself). This is journalistic malfeasance at its worst: refusing to describe the world truthfully out of fear of the negative reaction by influential factions (making today’s article even stranger is that a NYT article from February on settlers’ use of Airbnb referred to “illegal settler outpost deep in the occupied West Bank”). And the NYT‘s editorial decision raises this question, posed this morning by one man in the West Bank:
@ggreenwald @nsheizaf If I'm not living under occupation then I'm living under an Apartheid state. Which one is it?
— A Man In The Sun (@AManInTheSun) May 26, 2016
The cowardice of the NYT regarding Israel is matched only by the Clinton campaign’s. Clinton has repeatedly vowed to move the U.S. closer not only to Israel but also to its Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu. Pandering to Israel – vowing blind support for its government – is a vile centerpiece of her campaign.
The changes to the Democratic Party platform proposed by Bernie Sanders’ appointees such as Cornel West, Keith Ellison and James Zogby – which Israel-supporting Clinton appointees such as Neera Tanden and Wendy Sherman are certain to oppose – are incredibly mild, including echoing the international consensus in condemning the Israeli occupation. As the Israeli writer Noam Sheizaf put it this morning, the NYT’s use of scare quotes is “just as pathetic as the Democratic fear that their platform would actually say Palestinians deserve civil rights.”
This craven posture is particularly appalling as Israel just this week has taken an even harder turn toward extremism, prompting its former Prime Minister, Ehud Barak, to warn that Israel has been “infected by the seeds of fascism.” While the former Israeli Prime Minister issues warnings that grave, establishment Democrats are petrified of even the most tepid stances.
But Democratic Party cowardice on Israel is nothing new. In 2003, the pre-lobbyist-money-infected Howard Dean was publicly mauled by top Democrats – led by Nancy Pelosi – for the crime of saying the U.S. should be “even-handed” in its attempts to forge a peace agreement between the Israelis and Palestinians.
Even worse was the disgraceful scene from their 2012 Convention: the Platform Committee had omitted any reference to “God” and, worse, had decide not to say that Jerusalem is the eternal capital of Israel. Obama campaign officials were eager to rectify this blasphemy, so arranged for an “amendment” to the Platform to be introduced to the full Convention, which required 2/3 approval from the delegates. When Los Angeles Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa came to the podium to ask delegates to vote, it was obvious that the majority was opposed. Confused and bewildered at the refusal of delegates to obey the script of party leaders, he asked for a vote three separate times, and on the third time, even when it was clear that they did not have the votes, he simply lied and proclaimed the pro-Israel and pro-God amendment passed with 2/3 approval:
That is the level of Orwellian distortion needed to maintain the blatantly false narratives about Israel that have prevailed for so long as bipartisan U.S. orthodoxy. As today’s article demonstrates, the New York Times not only submits to that propagandistic orthodoxy but plays a leading role in sustaining it.
* * * * *
For anyone who wants to claim that Israel only occupies the West Bank but not Gaza (a point irrelevant to the critique in this article), see this outstanding two-minute video.
UPDATE: After publication of this article, the NYT edited their own to remove the scare quotes around “occupation,” though did so quietly, with no editorial explanation or note. The original version, however, appeared on A1 of this morning’s print edition.
Correction: This article was corrected to reflect that the events depicted in the YouTube video took place at the 2012 Democratic Convention, not the 2008 Convention as originally noted.
Hello all, I would like to offer the following expose’ about Batya Medad for your critique and perusal.
Please give me your thoughts, Hasbara trolls need not apply, for the following very long and very detailed analysis (7600 words, 53 links) of the illegal colonies and international law, auto-antisemitism, blood libels and the sordid story about Batya Medad and the illegal Shiloh Settlement Corridor in which she is an active part.
Please see: Batya Medad – Wild-Eyed Hilltop Jewish Jihad in Shiloh, Palestine
Introducing- The most intelligent person in this conversation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pDqTKdFCTM&index=1&list=PLGmw8dlTf3tf5cn9NiiR6nik0jNXm5DIA
http://samidoun.net/2016/05/take-action-palestinian-fishers-under-attack-end-the-siege-on-gaza/
Five Palestinian fishers in Gaza – Rajab Abu Riyala, Khaled Abu Riyala, Hassan Miqdad, Mahmoud Miqdad, and Bashar Abu Riyala – were arrested this morning, 31 May, by Israeli occupation forces and two fishing boats confiscated by the Israeli navy. According to the Union of Agricultural Work Committees, these arrests bring the number of Palestinian fishers in Gaza arrested by Israeli occupation forces in 2016 to 70, including eight children, and the number of boats confiscated to 20. In 2015, 71 fishermen were detained and 22 boats confiscated throughout the year.
Read full story…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C05UhR9qtiA
Doors to the Sea: Gaza’s Fishers Under Siege
WATCH: Israeli Navy shooting @ fishermen now only able to go 3 miles out to sea.
BDS
sounds like Nuttinyahu’s starvation plan is being implemented.
adolf got nuttin’ on nuttinyahu.
Gaza has one of the highest obesity rates in the world
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=238_1406451164#O4OHJGsJTiPEM71j.99
thank you!
I will correct my error that Nuttinyahu is trying to starve the Palestinians. On the contrary, he is attempting to kill them with an unsafe diet.
thank again.
You link to “liveleak” which links to “The Economist”…pablum for the right.
Asinine zio window lickers who spew vile anti-Semitic blood libels about the belligerently occupied indigenous Palestinian Arab population currently being subjugated in their own homeland – i.e., violently subjugated in their own homeland, solely for the benefit and betterment of glorious greater zionistan – have some of the tiniest brains in the world:
Note that your article makes no mention as to WHY.
And maybe the next time the Israeli Navy warns the fisherman to get back on course they’ll do it. Or they always have the option of getting shot again.
It’s up to them.
[“Note that your article makes no mention as to WHY.”]
Uhhhhhhh
Did you even read the article…did you listen to the video?
BDS FAKE ISRAEL
Note that anti-Semite “Alexi” is a Jew-baiting, israel-worshiping, zio psychopath and braindead amoral apologist for zio war crimes who’s just too fucking stupid to understand WHY his precious gang of zio war criminals don’t just get to murder Palestinian fishermen with impunity, ever.
ROFL…Yea, and maybe if amoral anti-Semite and zio window licker “Alexi” warns his precious zio joooo petz in Ha-Yishuv to abide by international law and keep their dicks in their pants they’ll do it. Or they always have the option of getting stabbed, shot at and blown up.
It’s up to them.
https://electronicintifada.net/content/methodists-keep-investing-israels-war-crimes/16891
Like many other religious organizations, the 12 million-strong United Methodist Church has formally criticized Israel’s oppression of the Palestinians. At a 2012 policy-making conference, the UMC appealed for a global boycott of goods produced in the settlements which Israel is building in the occupied West Bank in violation of international law.
Where were they when 5 Arabs countries attacked Israel on the day it was reborn?
Where were they when Palestinians were blowing up Israeli restaurants, nightclubs, hotels, buses, etc.?
Where were they when Palestinians were launching 12,000 rockets & mortars at Israelis?
Where were they when Palestinians were stabbing Israelis?
how many Palestinans you killed, jack?
how many Palestinians you wanna kill, jack?
how much land you wanna steal, jack?
None.
how many Palestians would you like to see killed or removed from the Land?
What sort of participation would you like to have in that?
None.
None.
how many Israelis would you like to see killed or removed from the Land?
What sort of participation would you like to have in that?
how many Israelis you killed, barabbas?
how many Israelis you wanna kill, barabbas?
how much land you wanna steal, barabbas
Where was your mamzer state when your mythical “5 Arabs countries attacked” your stupid Zionism damaged brain:
Not living under an almost 49 year old illegal belligerent military occupation.
Not living under an almost 49 year old illegal belligerent military occupation and an illegal blockade that’s been ongoing now for more than 10 years.
Happily investing in all those violent war crimes continually being committed by your “israel” against the indigenous Palestinian Arab population of Palestine in your name, and busily investing in all those obscene crimes against humanity that your “israel” has committed for you, and is continuing to commit for you, even as I type this out to you, anti-Semite.
Oh, and I very nearly forgot to tell you, anti-Semite, they were also hella busy organizing and attending conferences, discussing and coming up with novel new ways to denounce the nonviolent economic methods and means currently being used to promote the Palestinian struggle for independence, doing their little bit to encourage even more violence and israeli fascism, that kinda thing…
rofl. Posting memorandum BEFORE THE FACT as proof. You’re a joke.
LMAO…Yea, anti-Semite, and thank you for SQUEEZING OUT THE ABOVE as proof that you’re a comprehension challenged, borderline illiterate joke of a human being and an amoral zio psychopath.
Israel is never acting in “self-defense” in Gaza
More from John Dugard, former U.N. special rapporteur on human rights in the Palestinian territories and emeritus professor of international law at the University of Leiden in the Netherlands.
The Netherlands was not the aggressor. It had not attacked Germany.
Gaza was the aggressor. It did attack Israel, but Israel counterattacked & that’s how the occupation of Gaza began. BTW, Israel no longer occupies Gaza.
It would be more helpful to consider the occupation of Germany by the Allies after World War 2. Did the Nazis have the right to resist Allied occupation?
Your “israel” was the aggressor. Your “israel” remains the aggressor. Your “israel” has been belligerently occupying Gaza since 1967. Your “israel” has been illegally blockading Gaza since 2006. Belligerent military occupations and blockades are acts of aggression. Belligerent military occupations and blockades are acts of war. A belligerent occupying power like your “israel” cannot invoke the right to self-defense under international law in order to justify its use of military force inside territory it occupies. Gaza has never “attacked” your “israel”. Gaza has the right to defend itself against violent israeli attacks. Gaza has the right to use violent armed force when defending itself against violent israeli aggression.
Your “israel” was the aggressor. Your “israel” has been the aggressor continuously since 1967, and Gaza has been defending itself against nearly 49 years of non-stop israeli aggression & the nearly 49 year long belligerent military occupation of Gaza began when your “israel” started the Six-Day War. BTW, your “israel” attacked Egypt in 1967, and that’s how your “israel” has been the belligerent occupying power in Gaza, in the Syrian Golan Heights, in all of Jerusalem and in the West Bank, for nearly 49 years.
Nah, anti-Semite, it would have been more helpful if you still had a properly functioning brain. But since you don’t, being the brain damaged zio window licker and the consummate Jew-baiting israel-worshiping anti-Semite that you are, it would be far “more helpful to consider” the interned untermenschen of Auschwitz by the Third Reich during World War 2.
Absolutely.
After Palestinian positions in Gaza opened fire on the Negev settlements of Nirim and Kissufim, IDF Chief of Staff Yitzhak Rabin…ordered the 11th Mechanized Brigade under Colonel Yehuda Reshef to enter the Strip.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War#Gaza_Strip_and_Sinai_Peninsula
https://www.amazon.com/Mommy-Teach-Read-Easy-Use/dp/0805444777
Why did the Nazis have the right to resist Allied occupation?
https://www.amazon.com/Mommy-Teach-Read-Easy-Use/dp/0805444777
“Hate Speech” it is a great term for censorship and control. Being a grumpy old man, I hate everyone and everything, except my wife, a few friends, Wikipedia and some valued tunes. I especially hate Abrahamic religions – be you Muslim, Christain or Jew, I hate you!
Only kidding, but it is a lot of trouble over the rights entitled to the power-wielding Faithful of a non-existent God. If they truly believed, they would fear the Hell they are most surely heading towards. Luckily for them…
I came across a real gem over at “Jewish Press” this morning as I was perusing this morning’s news. An odious harriden named Batya Medad, is outraged, outraged I tell ya, at the fact that some people are upset about her article claiming again, lie many of these extremists do and have done in this very thread, that there is no such thing as Palestine or Palestinians.
It is intellectual bankruptcy of the most dangerous kind. I wonder just how many people she has thus far encouraged in “price tag” attacks and the burnings alive of innocent Palestinian children based on her hate speech.
I had intended this morning to post a draft UN resolution that I have been working on based upon the already existing UNSCR 465, but first I had to share this because over on her “Jewish Press” blog and on my Facebook and BBSNews, I told her I would. Because I fully expect her to delete my response as she has closed comments elsewhere and deleted comments before, no surprise there. A lot of people see her hurtful lying antisemitism as the vile evil that it is.
Here’s the comment I left her with the link to her screed at the bottom:
It is time to start holding these vile people, who claim to speak for Jews as they incite genocide through the media, a crime against humanity in its own right, responsible for their actions. It saddens me that more people do not reject this type of fundamentalist hate done and said in the name of the Jews.
As a modestly well-informed human being, and specifically as a Jew, I categorically reject Ms. Medad’s contemptible views regarding Palestinians. I also emphatically reject any attempt to criminalize her expression of those views.
Absolutely. I’d oppose that with every fiber of my being.
People can’t seem to understand that protecting the speech one hates from government power to suppress it is absolutely critical to ensuring that the speech one finds important cannot be prohibited. No political idea or opinion should be illegal, no matter how odious — no matter that it constitutes vile hatred of a minority.
“Congress shall make no law….” One of the best values the United States has ever adopted, and worthy of global adoption.
And what if she’s giving money to violent settlers? Does “free speech” protect that?
I have a hard time with the concept (endorsed by the Supreme Court) that money is equivalent to speech. As far as I know, there is no law against Americans giving money to settlers (violent or otherwise). But I doubt I would oppose such a law. I believe Americans are barred from donating to Hamas; a similar ban on donations to settlers seems fair enough.
Imagine that you were born in a settlement in the West Bank. Why should you be punished?
This also brings to mind an investigation I am on and off doing for truth. Michael you may have already seen this video…but in case you haven’t…please watch it and pause when reading the news articles…and literally read about what happened before WWII and the money that was extracted from American Jews (and whoever else) from these Zionist to fund a fictitious 6 million suffering Jews way before Hitler. And the same words were used…to manipulate the sheep in shaming them if they didn’t give their money. The American churches esp. charismatic…do the very same thing and it is called extortion then becomes a lucrative business. Christians are guilty of it too… they are the ones who are supporting zionism . This is hijacking because they fruit is violence.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dda-0Q_XUhk
SIX MILLION JEWS 1915-1938 HD
This is the same time that land in Palestine was being bought up by these zionists.
NOTE: I am in no way advocating Hitler…but what I am doing is getting to truth that is being suppressed.
Here is another piece of the zionist puzzle and WWII. In case you haven’t read this or know about it…I highly recommend those who are seeking the truth behind the horrible oppression of Palestinians we have to back up and be free with the truth that is available at this time.
http://www.antiwar.com/rep/flynn1.html
The Final Secret of Pearl Harbor
by John T. Flynn
October 1945
On Wednesday, August 29, 1945, President Truman gave out the reports of the Army and Navy Boards directed by Congress to investigate the responsibility for the great disaster of December 7, 1941, at Pearl Harbor. These Boards had filed their reports nine months ago. Under the pretext that issuance of them would disclose important military secrets President Roosevelt suppressed them. But President Truman has not by any means given out the whole story. Portions of it are still suppressed. He says they will never be given out. And that is the simple truth. They will never be given out by this government until Congress compels the government to release all the information which it is hiding from the people and which it hopes to hide from history.
forgot the link…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dda-0Q_XUhk
SIX MILLION JEWS 1915-1938 HD
This was the time that land in Palestine was being bought up.
Also another part of the puzzle of zionist lies leading up to WWII
http://www.antiwar.com/rep/flynn1.html
The Final Secret of Pearl Harbor
by John T. Flynn
October 1945
On Wednesday, August 29, 1945, President Truman gave out the reports of the Army and Navy Boards directed by Congress to investigate the responsibility for the great disaster of December 7, 1941, at Pearl Harbor. These Boards had filed their reports nine months ago. Under the pretext that issuance of them would disclose important military secrets President Roosevelt suppressed them. But President Truman has not by any means given out the whole story. Portions of it are still suppressed. He says they will never be given out. And that is the simple truth. They will never be given out by this government until Congress compels the government to release all the information which it is hiding from the people and which it hopes to hide from history. Read full story to get more understanding of the treachery and subterfuge by our US Government (that is mainstay and prevalent up to this day).
Why is this a puzzle of zionist lies?
Because it was all a lead up and a carefully planned out agenda for bringing about the State of Israel. FDR facilitated the Zionist plan with the help of Churchill and Stalin.
While Churchill was prime minister, the British Navy blocked Jews fleeing Hitler from escaping to Israel.
I just lost a lot of info I was typing…
don’t have any more time so I will redo it tomorrow…sorry
You are an absolute IDIOT.
Do you have something important to add? No…you simply show all that you are virtually a paid hasbara with nothing. The information must be important for you to be here in the first place….
Mona
So why DO you keep quoting Jabotinsky re the nastiness of Jews? If I didn’t know you (or at least your internet persona), I would think you were seeking to validate anti-semitism. I assume that is not your purpose, but what is?
Gator, my purposes are several. Among them, to show just how far gone Vladimir Jabotinsky was. Second, and in the case below, to show what actual antisemitism looks like.
Given that everyone knows (or should know) my strongly negative opinion of Valdimir Jabotisnky and his political Zionism, it’s hard to imagine anyone thinking I quote him approvingly for just about anything.
Finally, I also admit to enjoy smacking Zionists up the side of the head with it. They call me, and everyone and sundry in these parts who is decent, an antisemite. If *I* am, then what of their revered icon?
Name one Zionist who isn’t perpetually “seeking to validate anti-semitism”.
We tend to create a personal and tribalistic god who is on our side even if we act unjustly, do unto others what we don’t want done unto us, and our hearts are filled with anger, vengeance, hatred, self-pride, desire for power and control, etc., and worship her as an inner idol.
“Si Dieu nous a faits à son image, nous le lui avons bien rendu.”
~Voltaire
Israel is an apartheid state
During Israel’s obscene and murderous bombardment of Gaza two summers ago, John Dugard, the former U.N. special rapporteur on human rights in the Palestinian territories (now emeritus professor of international law at the University of Leiden in the Netherlands) had this to say:
These 3 criteria don’t equal apartheid. For example, all 3 applied to South American during its colonization by Spain & Portugal, but no one considered that apartheid.
Hmmm, let’s see. On the one hand there’s Professor Dugard giving his nusthsell version to a journalist, and on the other, there’s Jack Green the demonstrated relier on liars and shills, who also appears to be a mental incompetent, saying “is not!”
Who to trust, who to trust….?
It’s not a matter of trust. It’s a matter of logic.
Do the 3 criteria apply to South America under Spanish & Portuguese rule?
If so, why has no one ever called it apartheid?
Jack, you wouldn’t know how to follow a logical argument, or make one, if your life depended upon it.
Jack, do you have any understanding of history? Do you grasp the etymology of the term “apartheid?” Here, let me help you.
Notice that John Dugard completely omitted separation.
Gee, no one considered anything apartheid, before the word “apartheid” even existed. Fancy freakin’ that, huh.
After “apartheid” came into common use, no historian ever used that word to describe the situation when Spain & Portugal ruled South America.
Well, if you argue that’s a necessary component, there’s separation, too.
The definition you presented had only separation. Nothing else.
I suspect that John Dugard hates Israel & wanted to call Israel “apartheid,”
but Israel is not apartheid by the usual definition so he was trying to make up his own definition.
in SA during apartheid, one’s drivers license or id had a label for white, african, and non-white. Non-white was for say, Indian. (dont recall the exact translation)
i am not familiar with id classing in israel but i am familiar with policies and practices that make 5 discriminations and i believe africans are actually more discriminated against than arabs.
ID labeling for classing indicates a discrimination. But it is policies and practices that are the active ingredients of apartheidism and israel has a real bad case of that disease.
To be apartheid, you need separation. For example, separate water fountains, separate bathrooms. You won’t find that in Israel.
Zionism corrupts the finest Jewish people
Deborah Lipstadt is a premier scholar on the Holocaust. Moreover, and as Israel critic, Richard Silverstein, has said of Lipstadt, “she has railed against the moral indifference and outright hostility of the U.S. government toward Jewish European refugees both before and during the Holocaust.”
Thus, Lipstadt’s support of nations who refuse to accept Muslim refugees is appalling and almost tragic — tragic to see this women lend her reputation to demonizing the refugees and abandoning her humanitarian principles. Lipstadt writes:
Silverstein gets right to the heart of this shocking statement:
Lipstadt, a liberal woman, actually says: “What about Israel? … I find myself almost agreeing with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s decision not to accept any refugees.”
Her entire position is soul-sickening. I highly recommend Silversteins’s analysis of it: Special Analysis: She Said What? Holocaust Scholar Denies Middle East Refugee Crisis
What does Zionism have to do with Ms Lipstadt?
Ya know, Jack, sometimes, being deliberately dense can be an effective tactic in informal debate.
And then there are those times when it’s just embarrassing.
I think this is a fair question. I’ll add a few of my own. Assuming for sake of discussion that Ms. Lipstadt is indeed a Zionist, why is it to be assumed that an American Jewish professor’s Zionist views are responsible for what appears to be her lack of appropriate compassion for Muslim refugees? Don’t many gentiles share the same (misplaced, in my opinion) concerns about various dangers posed by Muslim refugees? Is that because of their “Zionism”? To put it another way, is Western prejudice against Muslims simply a by-product of Zionism, or is it a broader phenomenon than that?
Note: In case it is not clear, my questions were directed to Mona and Doug Salzmann. (Note 2: Doug, if I am being dense — always a possibility — I assure you it is not deliberate.)
Anti Western prejudice against Muslims has many roots,from the Crusades,to Spain and its fight against Islam there,from Ottoman rule in Europe,all mostly Christian Muslim animus.
Modern anti Muslim feelings are the result of 70 years of zio
BS, from Hollywood demonization,to MSM demonization(Israel uber alles)to the 9-11 event,which unleashed the fired up propaganda influenced public to partially support Iraq,and almost totally green lit Afghanistan,two black holes of American disaster to this day,along with the total cluster f*cks of Libya,Yemen,Somalia,Syria,and all points of the compass.
And the latest story,the trial of the alleged planner of 9-11(which one is it?)KSM,is that the prosecution again muddied the waters of justice.
What a joke.Enough!
And who is the only candidate to say all this crap is crap?
The hated Trump,the enemy of the holier than thou hypocrites.
I agree with your comment…
except…
How do you excuse this…
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/may/20/donald-trump-sheldon-adelson-israel-trip-campaign-donation
Sheldon Adelson backs Trump trip to Israel after $100m pledge, sources say
zio is zio…no matter what lip service
He can’t legally donate such an amount,and maybe its just BS,or maybe Adelson has a good prognosticating device and wants to be on the inside instead of the outside in a Trump admin.They must know each other from gambling right?
the zions of wallstreet wanted a war.
200 israelis lurking about – who what where when blueprints
the zions of wallstreet needed a war
IT DIDNT HAPPEN
so they got their pal george to falsify lie and run a game on america
it cost way too much- more than they figured
so wallstreet decided to falsify home values, rob investors, steal homes
IT’S WHAT THIEVES DO.
What does your Zionism have to do with Judaism or Jews, anti-Semite?
Jews had been persecuted for centuries in majority-gentile countries. Even when not actively persecuting the Jews, the majority-gentile countries refused to give refuge to the Jews when they needed it. There would have been no Holocaust if majority-gentile countries would have allowed in Jewish refugees who were escaping from the Nazis. The idea of Zionism was that Jews would return to their homeland & have a majority-Jewish country because majority-gentile countries had failed to provide safety for the Jews.
Yep. Your Zionism is essentially a simulacrum of Nazism, with shades of militant Islamism thrown in for good measure – i.e., Zionism is a vile, toxic, racist, otherizing, state-worshiping political ideology that invents, racializes, sanctifies, mythologizes and indoctrinates a targeted “ethno-religious group” of people, in order to provide a tiny subset of people within that group with the potential means of gaining and retaining power.
Mona quotes Jabotinsky for the umpteenth time:
“The Jewish people are a very nasty people. Its neighbors hate it and they’re right.” – Vladimir Jabotinsky
Do you believe he is right Mona – that Jews are a nasty people?
You write,
“…………Ten years ago, a Jewish friend told me that neoconservatives and the Israel Lobby were the most dangerous thing to arise for Jews in many decades. He noted that once Americans realize the U.S. is sending their sons and daughters into Middle Eastern wars desired by Israel and promoted by neoconservatives and the Israel Lobby at home, there will be rage. There will be fury about the billions we send Israel and the way our foreign policy and politics are warped by the Lobby. And it has come to pass — we are seeing that with the antisemitic Trumpites. They realize it all, and they are furious…….”
Israel is sending Americans to fight and die on behalf of the Jewish State (now the “antisemitic Trumpites” realize it). Do you agree with Jabotinsky that Jews are just a nasty people, Mona?
https://theintercept.com/2016/03/18/brazil-is-engulfed-by-ruling-class-corruption-and-a-dangerous-subversion-of-democracy/?comments=1#comment-212423
Gotta go, but: Fine work here, Mona, Sparrow, Richard, Michael, Jayz, et al.
Before you leave, yourselves, consider taking another look at the thread under the Chris Kyle piece, where the Murka Fuk Yeh! knuckle-draggers are on the verge of threatening the authors with violence.
Questioning our “heroes” has always been dangerous, and there’s a long line of posts over there to serve as a reminder.
Fine work to you too brother…you’ve taught me much. Regarding the Chris Kyle piece…I’ve said my two cents for those who are there to receive it. Sadly in the midst of anti-war vets…there are the paid mouth pieces of the war machine corps…that abhor peace. They are trying to attract new recruits that have been mind controlled. Their numbers must be declining as to see such hatred. Can’t witness it anymore. America has turned into a monster and I long to see that monster gone. Take care and have a :) day.
Veterans are the only people in America who have seen the face of war and their comrades killed,and all for nothing,although they might reject that,it would be normal,so give them a little slack?
And how do you know they are veterans?They might be false flags just pushing the buttons of Zion.
A whole lot of vets do know that this is all a sham,I’ve met some.
hey dahoit…
[“And how do you know they are veterans?”]
The ones I am referring to said so…
[“Veterans are the only people in America who have seen the face of war and their comrades killed,and all for nothing,although they might reject that,it would be normal,so give them a little slack?”]
All wars to include WWII were and are based on lies by this US Government. I am studying this…
So while the brainwashed horah let’s gettem mentality under the flag and under the brainwashed glory and under the desire to kill called soldiers, there are only a handful that have come to their senses and are speaking out…they are the ‘hero’s’ that need to make it their business to expose the lies. As long as a person freely joins up to be controlled by war and its practices, trained to be killers of innocent civilians while bemoaning their own when killed…this insanity of American self glory declaring itself as the moral higher enlightened nation dominating the world will never go away. This is zio and the strong arm of it. The more that we expose the truth behind the veil that blinds the ego to glorifying war…the more cracks in the Wall.
[“America has long had a penchant for endless wars that empty our national coffers while fattening those of the military industrial complex. Since 9/11, we’ve spent more than $1.6 trillion to wage wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Adding in our military efforts in Pakistan, as well as the lifetime price of health care for disabled veterans and interest on the national debt, that cost rises to $4.4 trillion. Even now, the war drums are sounding as Obama prepares to deploy U.S. troops on a long-term mission to Libya and continues to police the rest of the world with more than 1.3 million US troops being stationed at roughly 1000 military bases in over 150 countries.”] http://antiwar.com/blog/2016/05/30/memorializing-the-horrors-of-war-with-10-must-see-war-films/
How can we justify slack?
When one walks in another’s shoes,even for a little bit,ones perspective changes.
I bet most of these guys are post 9-11 entering service,are volunteers,with no control over their deployments,have been on multiple deployments,and when real shite(instead of our idiotic war of terror) hits our fan,we’ll call them heroes.
The Only Democracy™ criminalizes social media posting — for Palestinians only
Some 150 West Bank Palestinians have recently been arrested and imprisoned for “incitement” and such bullshit . Read about ten of them here.
I am able to post many revolting examples of Israeli Jews who, with complete impunity, post the most vile and murder-embracing comments and tweets about Muslims and Arabs.
One of the people arrested in the crackdown on speech Mona cites was the poet, Dareen Tatour.
She was arrested last October 11, and, as of a few days ago, was still under house arrest.
Her alleged crime:
Liberal democracy, my ass.
http://www.nkusa.org/AboutUs/Zionism/greatgulf.cfm
THE GREAT GULF BETWEEN ZIONISM AND JUDAISM
Paper delivered by G. J. Neuberger a member of Neturei Karta at the Tripoli Conference on Zionism and Racism
Where the Torah tells about the creation of the first human being, the most prominent Jewish commentator, Rashi, explains that the earth from which Adam was formed was not taken from one spot but from various parts of the globe. Thus human dignity does not depend on the place of one’s birth nor is it limited to one region. The greatness or worth of a person is not measured by his or her outward appearance. Jews believe that Adam was created in G-d’s image and that he is the common ancestor of all mankind. At this stage in human history, there is no room for privileged people who can do with others as they please. Human life is sacred and human rights are not to be denied by those who would subvert them for “national security” or for any other reason. No one knows this better than the Jews, who have been second-class citizens so often and for so long. Zionists, however, may differ. This is understandable because Judaism and Zionism are by no means the same. Indeed they are incompatible and irreconcilable: If one is a good Jew, one cannot be a Zionist; if one is a Zionist, one cannot be a good Jew.
The Treason of Zionism
A conference such as this is long overdue, and I wish to thank those who made it possible to hold it. For over 60 years I have fought Zionism, as did my father before me, and I am therefore quite familiar with it. For those who have been in this fight for only the last ten or twenty years, what I have to say may be surprising or even shocking. Nevertheless these matters must be stated clearly and openly, because unless the disease of Zionism is diagnosed accurately, it cannot be cured. Too long have those opposed to Zionism engaged in daydreaming and wishful thinking. In order to recognize Zionism for what it is, one has to know about Judaism, about Zionism — the opposite and negation of Judaism, and about Jewish history. In the time allotted to me, I am not going to talk about the actions of the Zionists; they will be adequately dealt with by other speakers. As a Jew, I plan to discuss Zionism, which is rebellion against G-d and treason to the Jewish people.
To begin with, a few definitions: Who is a Jew? A Jew is anyone who has a Jewish mother or who converted to Judaism in conformity with Halacha, Jewish religious law. This definition alone excludes racism. Judaism does not seek converts, but those who do convert are accepted on a basis of equality. Let us see how far this goes. Some of the most eminent and respected rabbis were converts to Judaism. Jewish parents throughout the world bless their children every Sabbath and holiday eve, and they have done it in the same way for millennia. If the children are girls, the blessing is, “May G-d let you be like Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel and Leah.” Not one of these matriarchs was born a Jewess; they were all converts to Judaism. If the children are boys, the blessing is, “May G-d let you be like Ephraim and Manasseh.” The mother of these two was an Egyptian woman who became Jewish and had married Joseph. Moses himself, the greatest Jew who ever lived, married a Midianite woman who became Jewish. Finally, the Tanach, the holy writings of the Jew, contains the book of Ruth. This woman was not only not Jewish by birth, but she came from the Moabites, traditional enemies of the Jewish people. This book describes Ruth’s conversion to Judaism and is read annually on the holiday commemorating the giving of the Torah, the “Law,” i.e. the Pentateuch. At its very end, the book of Ruth traces the ancestry of King David, the greatest king the Jews ever had, to Ruth, his great-grandmother.
Apart from the Zionists, the only ones who consistently considered the Jews a race were the Nazis. And they only served to prove the stupidity and irrationality of racism. There was no way to prove racially whether a Mrs. Muller or a Mr. Meyer were Jews or Aryans. The only way to decide whether a person was Jewish was to trace the religious affiliation of the parents or grandparents. So much for the this racial nonsense.
Racial pride has been the downfall of those Jews in the past who were blinded by their own narrow-minded chauvinism. This brings us to a second definition. Is there a Jewish people? If so, what is its mission? Let us make this completely clear: The Jewish nation was not born or reconstituted a generation ago by some Zionist politicians. The Jewish nation was born on Mount Sinai when the Jews by their response, “let us do and let us hear,” adopted the Torah given to them by G-d for all future generations. `This day you become a people,” though valid still today, was spoken thousands of years ago.
According to Jewish tradition, there are seven Noahide laws which apply to all human beings. Then there are the Ten Commandments which form basic standard of morality and conduct for adherents of all monotheistic religions. In addition to these, there are 613 laws obligatory for Jews, and every Jew has to observe those which are applicable to him or her according to Halacha. It is the carrying out of these mitzvoth, “commandments,” which constitutes the essence of being Jewish, and therefore of the Jewish people and their covenant with G-d.
In what way are the Jews a “chosen people”? Every Jewish man anywhere and at any time when called to the reading of the Torah says, “Who has chosen us from all the peoples and gave us His Torah.” This is the way in which the Jews are chosen. The Jewish people are chosen not for domination over others, not for conquest or warfare, but to serve G-d and thus to serve mankind. “And the hands are the hands of Esau,” has been traditionally interpreted to mean that while “the voice is Jacob’s,” the hands- – symbolizing violence – are Esau’s. Thus physical violence is not a tradition or a value of the Jews. The task for which the Jewish people were chosen is not to set an example of military superiority or technical achievements, but to seek perfection in moral behavior and spiritual purity. Of all the crimes of political Zionism, the worst and most basic, and which explains all its other misdeeds, is that from its beginning Zionism has sought to separate the Jewish people from their G-d, to render the divine covenant null and void, and to substitute a “modern” statehood and fraudulent sovereignty for the lofty ideals of the Jewish people.
Hypocrisy and Perversion
One means of misleading many Jews and all too many non-Jews is the Zionist misuse of names and symbols sacred in Judaism. They use the holy name Israel for their Zionist state. They have named their land acquisition fund with a term that traditionally implies the reward for piety, good deeds, and charitable work. They have adopted as a state symbol the menorah (candlebrum). What hypocrisy, what perversion it is to have the Israeli army fight under an emblem, the meaning of which is explained in the Tenach (on the occasion of a previous return to the Holy Land) as, “not with armed force and not with power, but in My spirit says the Lord of Hosts.”
The infamous founder of political Zionism, may his name be cursed, who only discovered his own Jewishness because of anti-Semitism displayed at the Dreyfus trial in France, proposed various solutions to what he called the “Jewish problem.” At one point he proposed to resettle the Jews in Uganda. At another he proposed to convert them to Catholicism. He finally hit on the idea of a Judenstaat, an exclusive Jewish state. Thus from its very beginning Zionism was a result of Anti-Semitism and indeed is completely compatible with it, because Zionists and anti-Semites had (and have) a common goal: To bring all Jews from their places of domicile to the Zionist state, thus uprooting Jewish communities that had existed for hundreds and even thousands of years. Loyalty to the Zionist state was substituted for loyalty to G-d, and the state was made into the modern “golden calf”. Belief in the Torah and fulfillment of religious obligations in Zionist eyes became a private matter and not a duty for every Jew or for the Jewish people. The Zionists made divine law subject to party or parliamentary votes, and they set their own standards of conduct and ethics.
Neither the founder of political Zionism nor any of the prime ministers of the Zionist state believed in the divine origin of the Torah nor even in the existence of G-d. All prime ministers were members of a party that opposed religion in principle and that considered the Bible a document of ancient folklore, devoid of any religious meaning. And yet these same Zionists base their claim to the Holy Land on this same Bible, the divine origin of which they deny. At the same time they conveniently forget the Jewish holiday prayer “and for our sins have we been exiled from our land,” and ignore the fact that the present exile of the Jewish people is divinely decreed and that the Jewish people are neither commanded nor permitted to conquer or rule the Holy Land before the coming of the Messiah. The Jewish people do, of course, recognize special spiritual ties to that land they call it Eretz Yisrael. Every morning, afternoon, and evening, and night they mention it and Zion and Jerusalem in their prayers, and indeed a Jew does not sit down to a meal without doing likewise. To the Jew, the very soil of the Holy Land is different from that of any other spot on this globe, and wherever he is he turns his face toward Jerusalem during prayers. To live in the Holy Land or even to be buried there was always considered to be of high merit.
This love of the land and the Jewish longing for a return to it and for the coming of the Messiah have been exploited innumerable times during the past 2,000 years. Zionism has had many precursors and each has been a curse for the Jews. Individuals who proclaimed themselves the Messiah and messianic movements have sprung up from time to time, from the Roman era through the Middle Ages and down to the modern Zionists. Many of these pseudo-Messiahs posed as rabbis or as national leaders, though some of them eventually professed other faiths; many temporarily – some for longer periods – succeeded in misleading Jews, rabbis, and entire Jewish communities. All were in due course exposed and recognized as frauds, and those who had set their hope on them found only disappointment and all too often disaster.
In the early stages of the development of modern Zionism, the Mizrachi was founded, an organization of so-called religious Zionists who tried to combine their faith with political Zionism. This led to constant conflict between the dictates of divine law and the demands of Jewish nationalism. Most of the time, the Mizrachi was outvoted at Zionist congresses and served only to give the Zionist movement a false religious aura. Whenever expediency called for it, these “religious” Zionist fellow-travelers have been used by the Zionist government to underpin national claims with “religious” authority. The National Religious Party in the Zionist state has been well rewarded for giving its stamp of approval to nationalistic measures and enactments, whether these rewards were of financial nature or in the form of cabinet or other government posts. The chauvinism of these religious Zionists frequently exceeded that of other Zionists, and it was always couched in religious terms – a prime example of the abuse of religion. The fraudulence of these “religious” Zionists was demonstrated during the past year when it was revealed that two of their world leaders had committed million-dollar thefts.
A Jewish world organization was founded in 1912 on the German-Polish border with the specific purpose of fighting Zionism. This organization, Agudath Israel, “Union of Israel,” was to represent the true Jewish people in the world and to unmask the unwarranted and unjust claims of the Zionists. Rabbis everywhere joined Agudath Israel, as did masses of observant Jews. Anti-Zionist congresses were convened in Vienna and in Marienbad. In countries such as Poland, Agudists were members of parliament. Under Agudah leadership more than 50 years ago, Jews in the Holy Land opposed to Zionism obtained permission from Britain, the mandatory power in Palestine, to declare in writing that they did not wish to be represented by the Zionists or any of their groups, particularly not by the Zionist quasi-governmental organizations such as the Va’ad Leumi, “National Council.”
Haganah Assasination
Shortly thereafter, Jacob de Haan, a former distinguished Dutch diplomat who was then leader of Agudath Israel in Palestine, initiated talks with Arab leaders with a view toward the eventual establishments of a state there in which Jews and Arabs would have equal rights. In this way he hoped to forestall the creation of a Zionist state. Despite threats to his life, de Haan, fully aware of the ultimate dangers of a Zionist state, continued his talks and negotiations. On the eve of his departure in 1924 for Britain to meet with authorities there, he was assassinated by the Haganah, the Zionist paramilitary force, in the center of Jerusalem as he came from evening prayers. More than a half a century ago, this devout and visionary Jew gave his life in a fight that he considered paramount, at a time when the world at large was still blind and deaf to the difficulties and problems that a future Zionist state would entail.
Zionist Terrorism
As a result of such terrorism and increasing Zionist pressure, Agudath Israel gradually began to weaken and to compromise. During the Nazi period, it entered indo deals and arrangements with the Zionists, despite the fact that its fundamental aim had been to combat Zionism. After the Zionist state was established, Agudath Israel broke off with its past, participated in the Zionist government on the cabinet level and elected Agudists to the Zionist parliament. Still professing a nominal anti-Zionism, Agudath Israel established a network of “independent” schools in the Holy Land, but today the overwhelming part of the budget of these schools comes from the Zionist government.
In view of these developments, those Jews who wanted to continue the fight against Zionism without any compromise left Agudath Israel and constituted themselves as the Neturei Karta, an Aramaic phrase meaning “Guardians of the City,” i.e. the city of Jerusalem. The Neturei Karta in turn became a worldwide movement, known in some places as “Friends of Jerusalem.”
The greatest leader of the Neturei Karta was Rabbi Amram Blau, an inspired and dedicated leader whose compassion equaled his courage. He could not keep silent in the face of injustice, immorality, or hypocrisy. He was beloved by Jews and respected by Christians and Muslims. Born in Jerusalem, he never left the Holy Land during his entire life. In his writings he stressed many times that Jews and Arabs had lived in harmony until the advent of political Zionism. Rabbi Blau was imprisoned in Jerusalem, not by the Ottoman authorities, not by the British, and not by the Arabs, but by the Zionists. What was his crime? He defended with vigor and honesty, without regard for his own safety, the holy character of Jerusalem against the “innovations” and encroachments of the Zionists. He fought for the sanctity of the Sabbath and actively opposed the inroads of indecency and immorality made under the Zionist regime.
Unceasingly Rabbi Blau denounced the establishment of a Jewish state before the coming of the Messiah as an act of infamy and blasphemy. Under his leadership, the Neturei Karta declared year after year that they did not recognize the legitimacy of the Zionist state or the validity of its laws.
During the first period of fighting between the Zionist state and the Arabs, the rabbis of the Neturei Karta went toward the combat lines, carrying a white flag, and stated that they wanted no part in this war and that they were absolutely opposed to the creation of a Zionist state. In his last proclamation, Rabbi Blau deplored the actions of the Zionists against the Muslim and Christian Palestinians and the grievous harm done by the Zionists to the Jewish people in endeavoring to change them from “a kingdom of priests and a holy nation” to a modern state, devoid of spiritual foundation, based on chauvinism, built on conquest, and relying on military prowess. “The number of your cities constitute your gods,” the prophet Jeremiah had thundered to the chauvinist and idolatrous Jewish government of this day. Like it, the Zionists are now establishing a new status quo and expanding their position by founding new settlements in he territories occupied since 1967.
Rabbi Blau in his last statement severely condemned the UN for recognizing and accepting as a member the Zionist state, thus giving the Zionists unprecedented prestige and power. It is high time that the anti-Zionist nations listen to him, heed his plea, and undo this great wrong and correct this fatal error. It is well known that no action was taken concerning the expulsion of the Zionist state because of the fear that financial support for the UN would be withdrawn. Let those states, opposed to Zionism, who have become affluent during the past generation, show that they mean what they say by offering to replace any financial loss the UN may suffer as a consequence, and let the member states vote their conscience without fear and regardless of any intimidation.
There has been times before in Jewish history, as related in the Bible, when the masses were misled and only a minority of Jews clung to the true mission of the Jewish people. One of the first such of the occasions was the worship of the golden calf; today we unfortunately see a repetition of this, with the Zionist state now being the object of worship. Until the appearance and growing influence of political Zionism, Jewish leaders were chosen on the basis of their piety, decency, learning, and their love of justice and mercy. Today only too often so-called Jewish leaders, completely unqualified under Jewish law and traditional concepts, make pronouncements and decisions in the name and on behalf of the Jewish people. This is particularly true in the USA where there is the largest Jewish community in our time. I can never forget the remark of a woman in Oklahoma: “Isn’t today’s Judaism wonderful! All you have to do is give money.”
Even at his death Rabbi Blau refuted the Zionists who had often claimed that the Neturei Karta was nothing but an insignificant sect of a few hundred souls. Yet when Rabbi Blau died in Jerusalem on a Friday morning two years ago, a few hours later no fewer than 22,000 men attended his funeral.
At all times in the past, the misleaders of the Jews have sooner or later fallen by the wayside, and only those who upheld the validity of the Torah and the Talmud (the written and oral law) and of Halachah, and who resisted the demagogues, prevailed. The Neturei Karta follow in this tradition. They continue as a living rebuke to Zionism and speak in our time for the true Jewish people, those who have not been misled by Zionism.
During the Roman conquest of the Holy Land, there were Jews who on the basis of nationalism and racial pride were sure that they could not lose a war. They, like the Zionists of our day, were opposed to any compromise or settlement; there were determined to fight to the end. At that time, however almost 2,000 years ago, the fore most rabbi, Rabbi Yochanan ben Sakkai, chose a different way. The military adventurers prevented him from leaving beleaguered Jerusalem to negotiate with the Romans, so the rabbi had himself carried out in a coffin by his disciples to the Roman headquarters. He said to the Romans that the Jews need neither an army nor weapons and asked for permission to establish a yeshiva, a Jewish religious school, at Yavneh. It was this religious school, and not the militarists or generals of the time, that helped to perpetuate Judaism and the identity of the Jewish people.
It must be stated explicitly that while not all Jews are Zionists, not all Zionists are Jews. The motives of some of these non-Jewish Zionists, e.g. Lord Balfour and General Smuts, are at least open to question. From the beginning of the Zionist movement, some of the most articulate and fervent Zionists have been Christian clergymen, especially “fundamentalists,” who hail Zionism as an important “religious” movement and welcome it as a fulfillment of prophecy. They also, and significantly, serve the cause of Zionism.
One of the basic aims of Zionism is aliyah, the immigration to the Zionist state of Jews from all countries. Nevertheless, during the past few years hundreds of thousands of Israelis have outgathered themselves from the Zionist paradise, and American Jews have “voted with their feet” and have chosen not to be ingathered. These Jews recognize that the Zionist state is in fact nothing but a giant ghetto.
Instead of being able to render assistance to Jewish communities in other countries, American Jews have been mobilized to concentrate on helping the Zionist state, making the USA the real and major source of Zionist power and influence. The Zionists, true to the nature of their movement, rely on technical superiority and on a forbidding military deterrent – provided largely by the USA – for their security.
Nothing could be further from the true ideals of the Jewish people. The Jewish people were chosen in the first place “for you are the leas of all nations.” As the Psalm says, “they rely on vehicles and horsepower, but we invoke the name of the Eternal, our G-d.”
One most vital point deserves mention. A former president of the World Zionist Organization has stated explicitly that a Zionist owes unqualified loyalty to the Zionist state and that, in the case of a conflict, the first loyalty of a Zionist must be to the Zionist state. According to Jewish law, however, a Jew owes allegiance and loyalty to the country of which he is a citizen, and, of course, no faithful Jews owes any loyalty or allegiance to the Zionist state which has been condemned by the foremost rabbis of our age.
It is not my purpose to detail how Zionism should be dealt with. Let me state, however, that isolated or spontaneous acts against individuals or the mere adoption of resolutions in the UN or elsewhere are not effective means of bringing an end to Zionism. Let me state also that the battle against Zionism must be waged first, not on the shores of the Mediterranean, but in Zionism’s most powerful bastion the USA.
As an American citizen, I deplore that our government and our politicians have adopted an attitude that is in complete contradiction to the advice of the father of our country George Washington. Instead of shying away from foreign entanglements and permanent alliances with foreign powers, the establishment in Washington has embraced Zionism so wholeheartedly that in the eyes any criticism of the Zionist state and any opposition to political Zionism in the UN by any nation has become a punishable offense. And the American media do not dare to speak out against such an absurdity.
Unfortunately, thus far, each year sees still further gains in influence by American Zionists. This fact has made possible events and developments that were unthinkable even ten years ago. It takes a lot of courage to be opposed to Zionism in the USA today. It also took a lot of courage during the Second World War to be anti-Fascist in Italy or anti-Nazi in Germany. In the long run Zionism is nothing but a passing aberration in the long history of the Jewish people and of the world.
Let us take faith and hope in the certainty that eventually prejudice, hatred, and injustice will disappear, and that the prophecy will come true that all nations of the world will participate in the pilgrimage to Jerusalem, “For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”
Sparrow, that’s a worthwhile speech. But please be careful about reproducing the entire text of copyrighted material — and that speech is copyrighted.
In general, the safe thing to do is post a “fair use” excerpt and link to the rest.
Thanks Mona…I don’t know how to do that. Perhaps you can educate me? (i.e. example please?)
There is no magical formula about how much is a fair use amount. And it also matters who and why is using the material.
I generally try not to copy more than 20%, the exception being materials that are in the public domain, like that 1949 CIA report LOL originally posted.
Is there a way to correct this now…by attaching something?
I wouldn’t worry about it. If the TI staff delete it that would be why, but they often don’t get around to that sort of thing.
It’s not, like, this is a giant sin. And you certainly aren’t the first. I just thought you should know to be more careful going forward.
I like to note something like, “This material is copyright xxxx and is reproduced here pursuant to the Fair Use provisions of 17 U.S.C. §107.”
There are any number of guidelines available as to what and how much is appropriate fair use, but I think the UCLA Library version is an easy and straightforward read.
And Mona’s right: don’t worry about the above.
Will heed next time…
Appreciate the resources…
My aim is for those of us (in which I am being consistently educated) is to understand the veil between zionists and jews/christians & whoever. It is the UTMOST importance for christians and any other people of MSM mind garbage and church garbage to be set free of the lies that cause hatred. I’d rather be educated than pounded for anti-semitism which inflames the situation because of misunderstandings, ignorance, and/or disinformation. Hate is the root of all evil…and any religion that embraces this hate need be revealed for what it is and hopefully departed from. It is valid to question the actions of groups or individuals who give title to abominations no matter who they are…but it is to our accountability to set aside offense and put forth truth for the betterment of humanity. That is the Grace that has been given to us to right the wrongs. The Messiah has been crucified already for the Grace to set us free of lies…but those who believe in Him and then hate their brothers/sisters crucify Him over again by not doing and believing in what He teaches. Those who are new coming out of dogma need help. thanks….
Whatever the legalities––and I’m not dismissing the importance of being fair to authors––I thank you for bringing the essay forward to this forum with the best of intentions. I (and probably many others) would have missed it otherwise. It beats our attempts to refute hatred with argument, irony or a look away dismissal. It is a blessing that erases in the mind so much of the graffiti taking up so much space on the wall of the commentary.
hey now thanks…
When the Jews came to the Red Sea, it didn’t split until a man jumped in.
Maybe the Messiah is here, but we just don’t recognize him.
An example of the ‘reasoning’ of the defenders of the Israeli regime:
Jack Green ? nuf said
May 30 2016, 11:03 a.m.
How can you steal your own land?
Here’s the kicker, by that ‘reasoning’ the Germans who took the money, houses, even the gold fillings from the teeth, of Jews weren’t ‘stealing’ because it was German money, German houses, German gold.
Some other examples of Israeli regime propaganda that are such clunkers that they can be used to ‘defend’ the Holocaust:
There are ‘Arab Israelis’ living within the (actual) borders of Israel, therefore there was no ethnic cleansing/genocide -> the present day Jewish population in Germany invalidates calling the Holocaust ethnic cleansing/genocide
Israel has only ‘defended itself from attack’ -> Germany was the victim of Allied aggressions, because it only ‘defended itself from attack’ (it not only used the same argument, but the same ‘definition’ of what constituted ‘self defence’ that the Israeli regime does)
There’s many more examples, but these are the top few most often repeated ones
It was NOT German money, German houses, German gold. Jews had receipts & deeds. The German government did NOT.
Germany did NOT defend itself from attack. There was no Polish army attacking Poland, but there were soldiers of Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, & Iraq attacking Israel.
And German law said that was all void.
Palestinians had lived for generations in the villages and cities of Palestine. They were simply ethnically cleansed by Zionist Jews. Zionists who stole it and turned some 7000,000 Arabs into displaced refugees.
From a 1949 CIA report:
Palestinians started a war against the Jews. Wars generate refugees. The people who should be blamed are the Palestinians who started the war.
No. You are incapable of reading, comprehending and digesting the myriad documented facts I and many others have presented here. You are indoctrinated in a false narrative and cling to it — not unlike the creationist who believes the Earth is 6,000 years old no matter the overwhelming evidence that this is false.
Some people are so indoctrinated in a false belief they cannot be reached with facts and reason. You are one of these.
The vomiting of the state of Israel on the people of Palestine was the greatest geo-strategic fuck-up since WWII.
The people of Palestine never had freedom of speech, the press, assembly, religion, etc. They never had the right to vote. They lived short lives in poverty. Israel gave them freedom of speech, the press, assembly, religion, etc. & the right to vote. Israel improved their health & wealth. Unfortunately, some Palestinians started a war against the Jews & against Israel & suffered the consequences of war.
With Iraq,a lineal descendant,a close second.
No Iraq,of course,wo Israel.
One cannot argue with an asshole,btw,its a useless endeavor,he’s a ziobot,and cares not for truth,other than his own totally corrupt version.
No matter what German law said, it was still Jewish money, Jewish houses, Jewish gold.
No matter what Israeli law says, it’s still Palestinian land, Palestinian homes, Palestinian water, Palestinian olive groves and Palestinian lives.
Because?
Because: “No matter what German law said, it was still Jewish money, Jewish houses, Jewish gold.”
Because God tapped me on the shoulder when I was in the shower and first he said, drop that, and then he said, Mickey, tell that “jack green” guy that Jesus is a Palestinian.
He’s out right now, something about virgins but when he gets back, he is going to want to talk to “jack” personally, something about hypocrisy and something about last summer. He said, “I know what he did.”
I laughed a lot! Thanks.
Bingo.
One can only tolerate so much nonsense and disinformation!
This notion that BDS is racist is complete nonsense. Or, an attempt at disinformation.
1. The concept of “race” does not have a scientific definition – it is in the eye of the beholder.
2. Calling Israeli a race is adding nonsense to nonsense – refer to 1.
TIFT calling BDS racist is complete nonsense.
Thank you. You’re right. I should have said that BDS is exhibiting bias, discrimination, injustice, unfairness, partiality, & bigotry.
“I should have said that BDS is exhibiting bias, discrimination, injustice, unfairness, partiality, & bigotry.”
Kinda like Gandhi, huh?
I don’t understand.
“I don’t understand.”
Here.
We know.
“…exhibiting bias, discrimination, injustice, unfairness, partiality, & bigotry.”
Without context none of these attributes can be said to be meaningful.
Without drawing parallels and simply to illustrate the vacuity of your statement, consider this….
Surely you would not be arguing that non-whites would be wrong to exhibit bias and discrimination toward members of the KKK?
There should be equal justice. If several people are committing the same crime, they should all be punished, not just the Jewish one. If all occupation & annexation are wrong, then all countries engaged in occupation or annexation should be punished, not just the Jewish one.
Yes.
But the converse does not hold. Israel needs to respect her obligations under numerous UNSC resolutions and international law. Arguing from the vantage point that if, say Ethiopia, does not respect the law then Israel should be let off the hook is nonsense – as I am sure you agree?
https://electronicintifada.net/content/ireland-latest-eu-state-defend-bds/16866
One of the reasons for BDS being a just (and fair) cause…
[Israeli funding booted from literary festival
This wasn’t the only bad news for Israel’s propaganda, or hasbara, efforts in Ireland this week.
On Tuesday, the Listowel Writers’ Week Festival announced it would be refusing funding from the Israeli embassy in Ireland to bring an Israeli writer to the festival.
The issue came to light on Sunday when members of Ireland’s artistic community began highlighting on social media that the festival’s brochure listed an event in which the Israeli embassy was explicitly thanked for its support.
After having been contacted by concerned individuals, including many artists, the organizers announced that the fesitval would honor its commitment to host the Israeli writer Savyon Liebrecht, but was rejecting the Israeli embassy funding.
This move is in line with cultural boycott guidelines issued by PACBI, the Palestinian Campaign for the Academic and Cultural Boycott of Israel, which call for a boycott of Israeli institutions, not individuals.
“As a Palestinian woman who is exiled from her homeland, I thank the festival for refusing to take Israeli state funding for this event,” IPSC chair Fatin Al Tamimi said, “This decision is courageous, principled and absolutely the right thing to do. This is a small, but certainly significant, positive gesture that will be appreciated by the Palestinian people struggling for freedom, justice and equality, whether under Israel’s apartheid regime or living in exile.”]
Thank you Ireland…
go raibh maith agat IRELAND.
http://www.omniglot.com/language/phrases/irish.php
Íocfaidh an fear seo as gach rud =
This gentleman will pay for everything
:D
BDS is group punishment.
What’s especially unfair is that BDS is demanding that Israel do something (end the occupation) which it can’t do without facing thousands of rockets & mortars coming from the West Bank.
BDS is cruel & immoral.
“BDS is group punishment.”
That’s just so unfair!
So you agree with Ben-Gurion?
Your claim is bullshit, but even if it wasn’t, as a Zionist you have no standing to object. See Ben-Gurion, David, and a host of others.
Are you saying that BDS is not group punishment?
Why do I as a Zionist have no standing to object?
Yeah, that’s why in that Yedioth article that Sparrow pointed out, where those 200 security officials from Israel are advocating an immediate return to a peace deal based on the Arab Peace Initiative.
They want “rockets & mortars” to rain down on their families in Israel because they are self-hating Jews. They just can’t take it anymore so they are holding out the very necks of their families for suicide. Amnon Reshef is talking to you, open your stuffed shut ears.
I so look forward to your in-depth logical and reality based analyses “jack”. They are so enlightening.
[Hat tip to Sparrow]
thanks man…back @ ya
Most Palestinians are against a 2-state solution. They want Palestine from the River to the Sea.
Nahhh, only about thirty percent want that. About half support the Two State Solution(tm) and about half oppose it. Things have evolved a bit since Israel ethnically cleansed 750,000 indigenous Palestinians at its birth.
In the interest of survival they recognized Israel in 1988, even though it was stolen right out from under them through yishuv terrorism and international fiat.
Israel didn’t declare victory for the miracle bestowed upon them, instead preferring a few more dunams of land instead of peace. So now Israel is hung on it’s own petard, cutting off their own nose to spite their face as it were; for the demographics caught up to the Hasbara.
You won’t get any of that but I take comfort in the fact that when you do finally get it, that fall is going to be a looong looong way down.
So did you turn up that signature on your deed yet? I only see a smudge. And if you could get me the skydaddy’s phone number I’d really appreciate it. He’s got his eye on you ya know.
51 percent of Palestinians oppose the two-state solution while 48 percent support it.
http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.677005
Dear Jack
I have given the Truth on Zionism vs. Judaism above and (below directed @ you). This is Truth friend…but I can’t pound it into your head to accept. When refusing Truth one faces calamity…please for your own sake without this broken record insanity that you keep circulating…break free from it and embrace the Truth. Ones refusal to do the right thing will bring about their own demise. I find it extremely grieving that you are not capable of feeling some kind of compassion toward other human beings…therefore BDS is nothing compared to the nightmare Palestinians have been living and dying with.
Every time Israel offers to end the occupation, the Palestinians say “No!”
Even Prince Bandar bin Sultan of Saudi Arabia (certainly not a Zionist) said that Arafat’s refusal to accept the January 2001 offer was a crime. Thousands of people would die because of Arafat’s decision & not one of those deaths could be justified.
Abbas could have said “Yes” to Olmert’s offer, but he didn’t.
Do you suppose its because the offers are not just?
What offer has Abbas presented?
Yeah, that “offer” that saw Olmert refusing to give Abu Mazen a map to go back and present to other Palestinian officials, so he had to draw it on a piece of stationery to show them what Olmert was supposed to be offering.
You are really quite comical. You are so inept in your complete inability to reason and comprehend primary information it’s an indication that ye olde tyme Hasbara chain of command just ain’t what she used to be…
Go look at the hand drawn map dweezil.
Michael Hess has been posting some highly worthwhile information. For example:
Desmond Tutu said: “Whether Jews like it or not, they are a peculiar people. They can’t ever hope to be judged by the same standards which are used for other people.”
That means that we should not accept as Gospel anything Desmond Tutu says if it concerns the Jews because he’s biased.
1. I find that quote at only a handful of rightwing sites and/or The Jerusalem Post. It’s not sourced. Where is the full text?
2. If Tutu said that, and if he meant it invidiously against Jews (which I deeply doubt, but without context I can’t say), that’s far milder than this:
“The Jewish people are a very nasty people. Its neighbors hate it and they’re right.”
-Vladimir Jabotinsky
I found the Tampa Bay Times Op-Ed/Open Letter to the Methodist General Conference in which the J-Post claims Tutu said:
He didn’t:
Justice requires action to stop subjugation of Palestinians
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/diane-bederman/whatever-happened-to-desmond-tutu_b_3450768.html
I don’t believe it. I squarely do not. Neither HuffPo nor the smattering of rightwing Zionist blogs link to this purported statement.
I found one Zionist claiming this, with no link:
I’m ready to call this a Zionist lie.
Desmond Tutu is a world-class moral leader, and an expert on apartheid. Zionist are almost certainly lying about him because this moral leader has called Israeli apartheid what it is.
It’s a bullshit quote with no provenance. Just like your land deed claim. There is no such thing as a land deed written by some guy in the sky when it was really written by who again? Signed by who again? I can find the signature for Abraham Lincoln, show me the one for your imaginary skydaddy.
I challenge you to find that Tutu “quote”. It was bait and switch in the JPost article with the key words being ‘he said elsewhere’ – it was not a direct quote, the source was no doubt some idiot like you just making things up.
It started at JPost, and posting a link to the same bullshit regurgitated at HuffPo proves nothing except that you are not capable of following a trail to its source.
You are the classic Hasbara troll. Every time you are provided with proof that your bullshit is lies, you just blithely blunder on through and throw out the next bucket of chum wrapped up in a bumper-sticker slogan.
JLocke writes
A good deal of the pollution has been removed. But readers are advised to scroll right on past the flood of crap by craigsummers. (My kingdom for an ignore button!) Then, yes, there are some worthwhile comments here.
Yup, hilarity often ensues in this space. *I* have also been called a hasbara troll (by an actual antisemite), which cracked up Gator so much he ended a sabbatical from here to post that that accusation was, alone, worth the price of admission.
If memory serves, you were accused of practicing Hasbara, without a license …
THAT is the claim. You obviously have posted countless links with essentially definitive proof of Zionist atrocities, past and current.
Yet, one of your gems was ‘Jews were only left with the option of usury’.
There are a couple other inanities, strewn throughout your rants, explaining some aspect of the people practicing an ancient religion – that is the art of hasbara.
Funny how you would give “anything” for an ignore button; helps keep your thoughts pure, I would imagine. Why, another day and no one has disagreed with me because they obviously cannot!!
Or perhaps it would serve as a padlock on the refer; portion control, if you will.
Yes, you are an antisemite who frequently goes off on how in European history Jews were rightly hated because, among other purported things, they were moneylenders. Your “theory” is that, historically,” Jews brought hatred upon themselves. I have no patience for that — at all.
In know what Catholic Europe did to ghettoize Jews, and what Catholic doctrine was on money-lending. I am well-educated in the relevant history, including Church history and it’s vicious antisemitism.
Antisemitism has no place here. You are no better than the virulent Muslim-haters that are so many of the Zionists who have polluted this space.
You did, however, crack up Gator with that nonsense about me being a practitioner of hasbara. So, you at least brought some humor to the place.
Once.
whoopsie. Let’s fix that so Mona isn’t offended at the formatting screw-up.
Just as you believe the clowns at Charlie were “brave” for continuing to shoot fish in a barrel with their childish caricatures, I’m sure your Catholic upbringing gave you a realistic view of the world, too.
I know why haters hate because I was raised by haters.
That’s some weak sauce. (broken record …)
-Mona-, your repetitive self-assurance, portrayed constantly as conviction, serves you not.
You’ve probably heard that before, I’m guessing. I’ll use the Broken Record technique for a while longer.
Hi Mona
“……About one year ago, Craig explicitly said torture is good. I reminded him and others of this for many months, and he did not deny it. He has chosen to do so now. Who knows why?…..”
I just need a link Mona? Until you do, this is what I said about torture:
“…….Of course, those who support torture can never claim the moral high ground. That’s obvious. There is only one reason to support torture – and that is to save lives……”
“…….I do not find it objectionable to “attack” or criticize torture. That’s a perfectly reasonable position. In addition, it’s illegal. However, what I do say is that torture – or the use of some techniques (as outlined by John Yoo of the Bush Justice Department) – was a reasonable response to the attacks of 911 in lieu of further potential attacks designed to kill thousands of innocent civilians. I stand behind that without reservation. I don’t support the use of torture, in general. I do in special cases. Simple…….”
“……..Most Americans supported torture after 911 to save lives and prevent further attacks (as I have stated twice before) which is a reasonable reaction in lieu of the murder of 3000 innocent people……..”
Mona writes;
“……One should not believe anything Craig says to or about me……..”
Mona also wrote,
“……..And altho Eichmann explicitly said, “I am a Zionist,” he didn’t mean it. Not according to the way Shalev defines “Zionism” and would prefer you to define it…..To understand why Eichmann could be both a Zionist and also have committed the atrocities he did……”
By the way, Shalev is a liberal Zionist Jew imposing (you heard right) his idea of Zionism on us. Here is what Eichmann admitted at his trial in Israel:
“…….When Hausner produced evidence that Eichmann had stated in 1945 that “I will leap into my grave laughing because the feeling that I have five million human beings on my conscience is for me a source of extraordinary satisfaction”, Eichmann said he meant “enemies of the Reich” such as the Soviets.[173] During later examination by the judges, he admitted he meant the Jews, and said the remark was an accurate reflection of his opinion at the time…..”
Typical Zionist……..according to Mona.
https://theintercept.com/2016/03/18/brazil-is-engulfed-by-ruling-class-corruption-and-a-dangerous-subversion-of-democracy/?comments=1#comment-212423
Jack Green, a troll, spews yet again:
As so often happens, a hasabar-ist raises the issue of America’s obsession with Israel. Zionists, of course, constantly shriek about “singling out Israel” and insist doing this constitutes antisemitism.
The irrefutable answer to this Zionist talking point was written by the award-winning journalist, Mehdi Hasan, in a piece titled: We Single Israel Out Because We in the West Are Shamefully Complicit in Its Crimes. An excerpt, my emphasis:
And by the way. Obama is placating Netanyahu with an offer of increasing the money U.S. taxpayers give Israel in military aid to $4 billion a year.
The U.S. is purportedly very angry about the settlements Netanyahu and Zionist terrorists won’t stop building. And aren’t we just showing ’em we mean business! If they continue stealing Arab land, why, next thing you know it’ll be $5 billion.
Yeas, I absolutely agree with troll Jack Green. The West– especially the U.S. — must stop singling out Israel.
If the World weren’t singling out Israel for punishment, the US wouldn’t need to come to Israel’s aid.
For example, the UN named only one country for its treatment of women. It was not Saudi Arabia where women are not allowed to drive. It was not Egypt or Iraq or Yemen where girls suffer from female genital mutilation. It was not Palestine or Jordan or Iran where women are subjected to honor killings. It was Israel – a country that has had a female prime minister & female fighter pilots.
The 10 worst countries for human rights are: Syria, Sudan, DR Congo, Pakistan, Somalia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Myanmar, Yemen & Nigeria. So why are there more UN Resolutions against Israel than against the 10 worst countries combined?
There is no boycott of China even though China invaded Tibet & transferred millions of Chinese settlers into Tibet.
There is no boycott of Turkey even though Turkey occupies part of Cyprus and Turkish settlers have moved into occupied Cyprus.
There is no boycott of Morocco which occupies part of Western Sahara.
Unlike China, Turkey and Morocco, the Israel’s occupation began because Israel was attacked. Also, unlike China, Turkey and Morocco, years ago Israel offered to end the occupation although Israel wants a peace treaty in return.
1.The U.S. does not “need” to come to Israel’s “aid.” But, the Israel Lobby in the U.S. significantly controls our Congress.
2. Israel is the wrongdoer, not the victim.
3. Harry Truman did not want to recognize Israel in 1948 — he feared the Zionists had laid the foundation for WWIII — but he bluntly stated that there were no Arab voters (then) in the U.S. So, in spite of the gross injustice to the Palestinian-Arabs, he recognized Israel. And it’s been nothing but a mess for the U.S, the world and the Palestinians ever since.
Zionists singled themselves out. They have sucked at the U.S. taxpayer’s tit for most of their existence, so as an American Israel has been singled out for me. My response, is to “single it out” in another way — for its wrongdoing and crimes that I am forced to subsidize with more military aid than any other country, diplomatic cover, and gross unfairness to Israel’s victims.
This is funny, after holding an astrophysicist for three months and interrogating him in “administrative detention” (without charge nor trial) and just three days after what must be exceptionally brilliant Israeli jurists come to the conclusion that the university professor should be released, as he, um, hadn’t been accused of committing any crime…
evidence of the Palestinian’s wrongdoing “accumulated”
He’s now charged with “incitement” and re-arrested.
Taken in light of criticism that BDS unfairly targets educational institutions, this desperate attempt to quell the “Palestinian astrophysicist threat” is hilarious.
BDS is group punishment.
BDS will continue to grow by leaps and bounds garnering ever more heavyweights until Israel ends its crime against humanity in Palestine.
Obviously, you have no clue that the ONLY existential threat that Israel faces is its illegal occupation of Palestine. The state that was partitioned against the will of the indigenous inhabitants for a Jewish national home.
(A now an Occam’s Razor break. Why is UNGA 181 called the partition resolution?)
We’re back. In true give them an inch and they’ll take a mile fashion, Israel has for decades squandered whatever “legitimacy” it ever had by using military force and state terror to illegally expand the territory it covets, and Hasbara trolls just like yourself have played a large part in the inevitable destruction by its own hand, of the only Jewish national home there ever will be.
I have often wondered just what the deal with you Hasbara trolls truly is. With each and every word out of your lying mouths, you bring Israel closer to the brink of destruction. Iran thanks you for your help while they giggle at you.
Hi M. Hess…
I would like your thoughts on this matter…
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4808802,00.html
200 former senior security officials present plan to end impass
IDF generals and Mossad, Shin Bet, and police equivalents call for freeze on settlement building, acceptance of the Arab Peace Initiative, and recognition that East Jerusalem should be a part of a future Palestinian state; the former security officials also urge the completion of the security fence.
(I have my own but I’m wondering if they match with yours.)
Thanks
Please call me Michael, Sparrow. I saw the headline a couple of days ago and clicked on it and I got this far before I got distracted. I got as far as this last couple of grafs:
It so closely tracks with the Two State Solution(tm) package that myself and many others have advocated for so many years it’s positively uncanny. Being the trusting soul that I am I’m sure that House Republicans and the Likud will jump at such an offer.
I remember when Ehud Olmert touched that third rail about the Saudi initiative and the result was not pretty. It never is for anyone who gets close to what it would take to have a viable deal.
Ten fifteen years ago this set of initiatives taken all together were the currency of the day among the peace camp including me. In the minutia of covering that kind of stuff when BBSNews was more robust in its heyday, the anti-peace forces were pushing stories like the infamous greenhouse story, and milking the pullout the illegal squatters for all it was worth.
The greenhouse story was told to me by our correspondent in Rafah, Gaza to be overblown with some pumps and pipes stolen and other materials before Palestinian security arrived over the next few days to get the stuff back. And that this was a result of the decided lack of security coordination on the part of the Sharon government on the pullout. It was the closing of the Karni crossing that led to the produce out of these greenhouses that were put back together being fed to the goats.
The 200 security officials apparently noticed that such calamities like the greenhouse story, where they were up and running contrary to right wing “news” reports of the time and from Hasbarians to this day. But then Israel refused to let the produce out at a cost of $450,000 a day to Gaza’s economy at the time, was a bad idea indeed and that makes their admonition of “delivering economic benefits to Palestinians in Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem simultaneously” in conjunction with a viable deal that much more imperative.
But that would be in a sane world and like I said, and you probably remember, we were all advocating for that from Oslo on in earnest that there should be security cooperation and that it was the root problem of the Gaza pullout itself that led to a predictable vacuum which eventually led to security issues.
I say this about the greenhouses and the wild-eyed crocodile tears about the pullout because this is the tactic they use with the Arab Peace Initiative. I’m a big fan of it. In a nutshell all it requires Israel to do is follow international law and its own international obligations to the UN Charter as a member state and in return Israel would receive full recognition of the Arab League, a full cessation of hostilities and normalization.
The first and loudest objection from Israel’s right which is now Israel is the part about having to make a settlement in accordance with UNGA 194. The Hasbarians go into full frontal frothing mode that this would destroy Israel, blah blah. But that is another one of those overblown misrepresentations of King Abdullah’s initiative as Jordanian Foreign Minister Marwan Muasher pointed out in November of 2002:
The naysayers will attack this plus there is the problem of the shelf life of the API. The second loudest objection is that acceptance of this deal is a “fait accompli”, but that does not make logical sense. A thief can’t claim that they’ve been wronged when they are brought to justice and the stolen property is returned.
I’m fine if they want to keep their wall but the fifteen percent or more of it over the border that is in Palestine has got to go. Jeez, for a minute there I was actually transported back to a time where this would have been possible. But based on what the world saw in 2005, and in light of this craziest most right-wing government in Israel’s history, I firmly believe that it is too late.
It’s great that all these people have come forward to support the parameters that many of us have known would be needed for a viable and durable deal. But I think it cannot happen. I feel the fear of these people who signed onto this initiative because, demographics.
But I believe that Israel is going to continue its spiral into extremism and fascism and will try to “annex” (steal) the choicest parts of the West Bank (Area C being eyed right now) and the Golan while continuing to maintain an occupation of Palestinians in the remainder with Gaza still walled off from the rest of Palestine.
This will lead to growing and increasingly incendiary criticism of what will even more obvious Israeli Apartheid and it will eventually sour the United States. The parameters of a viable deal and a practical way of implementing it has been known for a very very long time.
But, three-quarters of a million illegal colonists.
Now I’m dying to hear yours.
First I just want to say how much I like your BBSNews site…I haven’t gotten very far but what I have read I have certainly not only been enlightened but very impressed on your forthright drive with the Law. I go easy with it as I am not of legal profession…but you cause me to understand it.
My take although it is not as in depth as yours (in which I thank you very much)…was the Title in the last bit…”also urge the completion of the security fence”. Simply put…I laughed and said…you know it’s going to take actions in the right direction before I will believe anything they put forth. So completing this horrible Wall pretty much goes with your statement [“But I think it cannot happen. I feel the fear of these people who signed onto this initiative because, demographics.”]
In my simple terms…put up or shut up…is what I stand on…and I have a hard time believing that there are this many senior security officials in unity (suddenly looking for justice). With Israel there is always a future planned agenda that uses the media to deceive even the most discerning among us. A tiger can not change it’s stripes. Nor a leopard it’s spots. And never mind the power behind them (USA). I also balance that on the scales of the political sh*t here and the alignment of what is being prepared ahead…because I know the vote is rigged…the media is rigged…and the rest is in place. You may think I’m crazy…but hey I’m a native of where you began…and I feel that you are going to be something of a righteous presence in this scenario after having been groomed for this long. I’m happy to meet you and I will keep up on BBSNews from now on. Thanks again for your time in responding. Peace brother.
PS…I forgot to mention your work with native peoples of the US. They too are due for a long awaited justice. Their hope is mine. They took care of this precious land for untold time…and it needs to be restored back in the same condition it once was. It’s a big hope…but one without any other recourse.
Correction:
I wasn’t sure you were Native man…so I correct my PS:
…your work with your people.
You too are due…”Your” hope is mine. “Ya’ll” took care of…
The Occupation is a matter of life & death for the Israelis. Because Israel pulled out of Gaza, the Palestinians were able to launch thousands of rockets & mortars killing or wounding 2,000 Israelis. If Israel pulls out of the West Bank, even more Israelis will be killed or wounded.
If you want to end the occupation, encourage Palestinians
to accept a 2-state solution. Right now, most Palestinians don’t want a 2-state solution. They want Palestine from the river to the sea. They want Israel destroyed. They’ve always wanted Israel destroyed. They don’t care about independence. If they cared about independence, they would have declared independence in 1948. Instead, they asked for union with Jordan.
You are a consummate Hasbara liar. All of a sudden you are claiming that Jordan sought protection from Jordan, indeed Jordan passed a law in 1950 that clarified they were taking over the duties formerly handled by Britain and they specifically said they were respecting Palestine rights.
You just gave away that you know more about the actual history than you ever let on, and I would love to see your IP address.
The most delightful outcome from your little faux pas is that you also must know just how serious the demographic problem actually is. It is producing some serious desperation.
Whatcha gonna do with those 6.3 million indigenous Palestinians in Greater Israel “jack”? You can’t kill ’em, we said Never Again. So you are going to have to learn to live with the fact that while you were out talking shit straight from your nether regions, there is now an equal number of Palestinians and Jews in Greater Israel.
6.3 million Palestinians to 6.3 million Jews. The fight of the new millennium! It’s the Muqtada to Masada! Tickets available at the Greater Israel box office.
Man, when this finally sinks in I would not want to be you. You should probably hide the sharp objects so you don’t get tempted.
There are some tough calls in life, but for me, not doing business with a university that supports violent repression is legitimate…
A state arresting and harassing professors and students, and bombing their schools is not.
Wow!! Impressive!!
If you have enough time to sift through the usual robo-arguments there’s actually a few new commenters that have some good stuff to say here.
And if comedy is what you are looking for, Sufi Muslim is accused of being a deep cover hasbara plant.
The recurring theme to the arguments in favour of apartheid is: “Non Jews deserve fewer rights than Jews under Israeli rule because person X said or did something in year Y”
I’m pretty sure in all the slave revolts in the Americas, Blacks said and did some bad things. But try telling Spike Lee that he’s less deserving of human rights today because of it.
By the way, an anti-slavery BDS movement would have been banned in the slave states…from the same article:
And yet with all that “martial society”, slavery being promoted as a “good thing”, the laws prohibiting criticism….slavery came to an end, the hard way.
Yep. Ever since this effort by the Israelis to criminalize BDS I have been saying widely and often that such moves are exactly akin to nations or localities criminalizing the boycott of South African Apartheid or the Montgomery Bus Boycott.
It is backfiring, far more people are now looking into what the boycott, Sanctions and divestment movement is really all about, and Israel has been losing Christians in “droves” to borrow from Bibi’s last minute racist last election appeals.
I just don’t think that it can turn out very well when the Episcopal Church, Presbyterian Church (USA), United Church of Christ, United Methodist Church, United Methodist Church, World Council of Churches etc are all taking a moral and principled stand against Israeli Apartheid. Of course, they are obviously all Jew-hating anti-Semites.
Apartheid? Where are the separate water fountains & bathrooms?
Why are there Arabs in the Israeli parliament & on the Israeli Supreme Court?
Why are you an interminable idiot? Why ask why? I mean you can’t even get the difference between “separate but equal” and Apartheid correct. I know you can’t be convinced because you are an idiot. This question has been asked and answered in this thread and I’m not repeating it. But I will add new material for the benefit of others who are not brain-dead to that which I have already entered into this thread about the fact of Israeli Apartheid.
You must be completely confident that I am wrong and your inane bumper-sticker argument is correct, so why ask why?
It is beyond belief that you cannot get it through your thick, ideologically, driven by hate and ignorance, one-track mind that Israel has conducted an illegal colonization and subjugation of the state of Palestine for 72% ot its life, rendering all those claims of Israel being a “democracy” that abides by the rule of law one of the biggest and saddest and meanest jokes on this planet.
But I’ll play along. Former Prime Minister Ehud Olmert warned about this nine years ago:
The Two State Solution(tm) is dead Dead DEAD. And you and others of your Hasbara troll ilk gleefully helped kill it. This is why I question your motivations. If someone wanted to work to destroy the only Jewish national home there ever will be, they would use your lying Hasbara tactics because it is working.
Desmond Tutu might know something about Apartheid. In 2006 he said:
From B’Tselem in 2006:
Now you run along and work on your asinine bumper stickers.
Americans have changed their minds about having black kids go to school with white kids, gay marriage, smoking, etc. It’s possible that some day Palestinians will change their minds & decide to support a 2-state solution.
I firmly believe that Hasbara trolls like you are mentally ill. There are three-quarters of a million illegal squatters over the legal border of Israel over in Palestine, yet you want to turn it around and blame the victims with your snide bullshit.
I was at my first Civil Rights march in 1968 “jack” – and I didn’t see you there – it was because of people like me and my family that the things you mention have changed jagoff.
If you were even alive then I am quite sure you were starting to hone your condescending bullshit delivered in short inanities like the above. Your asinine argumentation is breathtaking. How many times have you also used the old chestnut about missed opportunities?
I’d bet that comment has inspired you and you are hoping one day to have one like that.
You must have forgotten that I am an American Indian 400 feet from the res’ you interminable troll. In short, if Israel was forced to end its crimes against humanity tomorrow morning, the lingering effects of the enormity of what Israel has done to the indigenous Palestinians will last well over the next century.
Just below this comment is your lying claim that whaaa, ‘it’s only poor widdle innocent Israel that gets boycotts, no one else does it, whaaa!’ Freakin’ four year-old.
I showed you to be completely wrong, and pointed out your inability to process basic facts and information or even use Google, it was a total smackdown.
And yet last night you made the same claim even as your claim to me about Tibet, Morocco and Turkey was nothing but lies.
It is precisely because of lying assholes such as yourself that Jews in my family are likely one day to be in danger from the Donald Trump jerks your ignorant populist, racist bullshit has risen to the top like scum to the top of a grey-green pond.
Most people neither have the time nor the inclination to learn the facts about the last century and Israel’s slow expropriation of land and sovereignty that clearly belong to others.
People like you have done this “in the name of the Jews” – you fancy yourself a “supporter”. And yet the fact is, your kind of support is the cold embrace of real antisemitism, you firmly claim day after day that obviously there is something wrong with Jews and others who do not support crimes against humanity being committed in their names but certainly without permission, most especially the crime of ethnic cleansing.
Your argument rest on a blood libel pal. Get mental help. You remind me of another troll I have not seen in a decade or so, he used to go armed to temple and he even claimed that he armed his wife when they went to temple. In the midwest.
He thought someone might go after him because he was a Jew. It was my contention after months of hearing his one liner bullshit that neatly resembles yours, that someone might bust a cap in his ass not because he was a Jew, but because he was an asshole.
And I gotta tell ya “jack” – when jerks like you have your ridiculous claims punctured with fact-based reality, and then several hours later have the sheer chutzpah to try and run the same lying game again as if no one would notice – you are not just encouraging the return of ye olde tyme REAL antisemitism, you are perpetuating it and engaging in it.
Well said bro…and needed to be. You are a force to be reckoned with and able to straighten the perverted lines. THIS is what is needed to set free the Trumpster’s, the Chris Kyle worshipers, and the haters of others.
Take no prisoners man…….
BDS is racist. It singles out Israel.
There’s no BDS against China which occupies Tibet & has transferred millions of Chinese settlers into Tibet. Similarly, there’s no BDS against Turkey which occupies Northern Cyprus or Morocco which occupies Western Sahara.
Tibet
Turkey over Cyprus
Morocco Western Sahara
Now back to your idiotic bumper stickers. Maybe we should take a collection up for you so you could learn to use Google.
Many countries, including the USA, treat people differently depending on group membership. Arab Israelis have the great advantage of being exempt from the draft.
Whatever dude. The Hasbara term “Arab Israelis” is really PALESTINIANS.
It’s used by those who attempt to split the Palestinian polity, much like Ariel Sharon was doing when he came up with the unilateral “disengagement” plan from Gaza, but then vastly increased the illegal colonization of the West Bank and East Jerusalem. (President Obama put an end to the infamous “exchange of letters” though, (Bush junior’s attempt at circumventing international law and legitimizing extra-judicially the illegal colonies that Israel wants to keep) now President Obama needs to sign onto a UN Security resolution finally kicking the Zionist usurper out of the neighboring state of Palestine.)
It was obvious that Hamas and Islamic Jihad would not be amused. By pointing at Gaza, without making a complete withdrawal from all of Palestine as international law requires, it took the spotlight off the invigorated illegal colonization elsewhere in Palestine, for any “resistance” would and is blamed on, ‘we have no peace partner. Look we removed [a paltry few] thousands colonists from Gush Katif and look how those dastardly Palestinians treat our amazing generosity!’
‘We pulled out from Gaza and those ungrateful Palestinians should have turned their “state” into the Jewel of the Mediterranean.’
‘But instead they fired their [kitchen-made, spot welded fins, bottle] rockets at our [scrub]land in return, so obviously we can’t get out of the rest of Palestine because they hate Jews…’
The millennials and young American Jews are just not falling for this crap anymore. One used to have to go to a main library to get at the truth, now we can just go to online places like the Truman Presidential Library’s collection of primary documents about the founding of Israel, or the United Nations Web site, or the law library at Yale etc, that blows the lies right out of the water.
Water is wet. But you folks obviously would call the French Resistance “terrorists” because they fought the German occupation with any means they had.
And then you would justify it with inane bullshit like “Many countries, including [Germany], treat people differently.”
Drafting Palestinians,who hate Israel, into the IDF would be the groundfloor of Israeli destruction,as why would they fight their own people?
Of course you know that.
While that charge against me won the Internet, it also saddened me a great deal as it showed that the relationship between the Muslims and the Children of Israel has deteriorated so much, generally speaking, that that commenter will find a Muslim having a soft spot for a Jew, and finding what was done to the Jews in WWII to be horrific, to be a reason for being suspicious of that Muslim.
“While that charge against me won the Internet. . . ”
It definitely did! ;^)
“. . . it also saddened me a great deal as it showed that the relationship between the Muslims and the Children of Israel has deteriorated so much. . .”
Sufi is the better angel of our collective nature, here, and one of the best examples, anywhere, of why we shouldn’t dismiss religious/philosophical sensibilities too quickly or harshly. Whatever may help her to be the fine human being she so obviously is clearly has real value — not only for her but for us by association.
On the comment software/forum technology/spam/crap
I don’t know, I (obviously) like commenting here. I like the room to provide links, quotes, directly challenge others, go on what arguably can be called wild tangents.
But there is (obviously) room for improvement.
Not sure I can give any suggestions though.
ON THE COMMENTS SOFTWARE:
It seems that one can post comments using fake email addresses.
Dear TI IT, are you aware of it?
They are. It’s one of the multitude of issues a number of us have objected to — it means anyone can comment and that bans are essentially meaningless.
Excellent!
Many thanks for sharing it.
Take care,
The disadvantage of not verifying the email policy at TI is what Mona pointed to.
TI has a good privacy policy, but generally speaking, not having an associated user’s email address has advantages.
Some third party operated commenting system that verify, say using your gmail data, sell their entire data, including data they harvest from your contacts, email address, IPs, comments and all to companies that receive a large part of their operating budgets from DOD contracts.
When one bans voices that they believe helps their own viewpoint by exposing what they believe is prejudice by that poster,they are shooting themselves in both feet.
Free speech is not negotiable,but for some who claim themselves as liberal,it is.Hypocrisy laid bare,and an exposure of possible over valued intellect.
The link Glenn provided to the 2 minute video will not play at all for me. No matter what country I set my VPN to. Here is a link to that video on youtube. I am pretty sure that it’s the same video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kUSihH-M9M
May be previously-set cookies or sneaky stuff in your browser cache. You could clear it, but there are annoying and time-consuming downsides to that.
Plays fine for me, BTW.
Thanks, but no matter what I try it I get same message. “you cannot view this from your country” Maybe it’s my proxy server set wrong…
Hmmm. What browser are you using?
Michael Hess
I don’t characterize Craig as a troll. But I do know, as do many here — from pretty long experience — that Craig cannot be reached with facts. He will generally concede facts that are too well-documented to be reasonably denied. But that is not to say Craig is reasonable.
Craig can be counted on to resort to whataboutery when an unpleasant fact about Israel is presented, or when Greenwald writes about U.S. or another Western-nation’s wrongdoing. Craig endlessly whines and laments about the articles Greenwald and the other staff here don’t write.
He is also quite fond of the poisoning the well fallacy, i.e., he promiscuously litters his comments with claims that people like Greenwald, me, or you are “radical leftists, “fringe leftists” “anti-American” & etc. Anyone who’s not a Nazi but who is deeply critical of Israel is, by definition, “radical left” in CraigWorld. So, whatever facts we present should be dismissed because we are “those people.”
Moreover, in CraigWorld that Israel is teeming with proto-fascist people and movements — at the highest levels — is the fault of the “radical left.” “We” made them do it. Nothing is ever Israel’s fault. Nothing Zionists have ever done is especially bad, or if it is, it’s because the Palestinians or the “fringe left” pushed them there.
On the issue of Israel-Palestine, as on a number of others, Craig is an authoritarian of the first order. He’s very hostile to Black Lives Matter, and to demanding accountability from law enforcement when a black person is killed or brutalized by a cop. He’s never met a breach of the 4th Amendment the U.S> government commits that isn’t fine by him. And torture, it rocks in CraigWorld.
Craig is a Republican, an ardent Zionist and again, at his core Craig is a deep authoritarian.
But he’s not a hasbara-ist, at least not a conventional one. He’s an authoritarian for whom Israel is an ideal state conforming, as it does, to his nationalistic and militaristic notions of Western imperialism.
I suppose one could say I am sometimes a glutton for punishment of the wingnut type. I am willing to give him a chance to answer me on his denial that Israel is a colonial Apartheid state, a conclusion borne out by the evidence and not posited from a “left wing” point of view, it’s simply the fact of the matter as anyone who spends a modest amount of time looking can quite easily find out for themselves.
He can try to pigeonhole me but it’s not likely to work because my political leanings range from conservative to progressive liberal. I prefer a worldview informed by factual reality and not factional reality.
Yet the idealist in me, the one who mourns the fact that neocons, fundies and warmongers have shot down the butterflies above our nation, is driven by the need to try.
About once a week I get a letter from someone who thanks me for widening their view and changing their mind, so who knows? I still hold out hope that the butterflies can be restored to their place in the sky, where the snakes in the grass can’t reach them.
Oh, and thanks for taking out the trash.
Craig could be a team member from a group working out of Haiffa that patrols the internet 24/7 to counter any posts that do not favor israeli anything. The Haiffa operation has been going on since 2007. They work in shifts and may use the same profile. There objective is to get people banned.
You cannot ban someone if you cant ban someone. I believe TI is also aware of this situation as well and the complications of substantiation with regards to nuissance subpoenas just to take the publication down.
it’s a war, of words.
Mona
“……..He’s very hostile to Black Lives Matter, and to demanding accountability from law enforcement when a black person is killed or brutalized by a cop. He’s never met a breach of the 4th Amendment the U.S> government commits that isn’t fine by him. And torture, it rocks in CraigWorld…….”
You do yourself no favors by lying Mona (throughout the post). Just a couple of examples will suffice, however. As far as Black Lives Matter, you must mean when I excoriated everyone here including above the line commentary (Devereaux) for “convicting” Officer Wilson before he was given a hearing and was exonerated by the DOJ and a Grand Jury. And to show you how torture “rocks” in my world, here is what I said in three different posts:
“…….Of course, those who support torture can never claim the moral high ground. That’s obvious. There is only one reason to support torture – and that is to save lives……”
“…….I do not find it objectionable to “attack” or criticize torture. That’s a perfectly reasonable position. In addition, it’s illegal. However, what I do say is that torture – or the use of some techniques (as outlined by John Yoo of the Bush Justice Department) – was a reasonable response to the attacks of 911 in lieu of further potential attacks designed to kill thousands of innocent civilians. I stand behind that without reservation. I don’t support the use of torture, in general. I do in special cases. Simple…….”
“……..Most Americans supported torture after 911 to save lives and prevent further attacks (as I have stated twice before) which is a reasonable reaction in lieu of the murder of 3000 innocent people……..”
I do enjoy your presence though Mona. You have been the perfect example of the radical anti-racist racist extreme left. You might even by more radical than I even envisioned though when you defended Adolph Eichmann as being a Zionist.
Thanks.
Readers::
About one year ago, Craig explicitly said torture is good. I reminded him and others of this for many months, and he did not deny it. He has chosen to do so now. Who knows why?
Becasue he did not deny it, I didn’t bookmark the comment. But he said it, and for a very long time stood entirely by it.
But either way, his prattle above about torture in “special cases” and approving citations to John Yoo and the Bush torture regime, is all one really needs to know.
One should not believe anything Craig says to or about me. Of necessity — because readers desire that I do so — 95% of the time I do not reply to Craig, as it only increases his flooding the board with bullshit, long, long massive blocks of bullshit. He baits me, but I ignore it, or I am complicit in his polluting the board.
I pay some attention to him now, only because we have a welcome new participant in Michael Hess who doesn’t know any of this history. But I now resume ignoring Craig 95% of the time as others have wanted me to do.
Hi Mona
“……About one year ago, Craig explicitly said torture is good. I reminded him and others of this for many months, and he did not deny it. He has chosen to do so now. Who knows why?…..”
I just need a link Mona? Until you do, this is what I said about torture:
“…….Of course, those who support torture can never claim the moral high ground. That’s obvious. There is only one reason to support torture – and that is to save lives……”
“…….I do not find it objectionable to “attack” or criticize torture. That’s a perfectly reasonable position. In addition, it’s illegal. However, what I do say is that torture – or the use of some techniques (as outlined by John Yoo of the Bush Justice Department) – was a reasonable response to the attacks of 911 in lieu of further potential attacks designed to kill thousands of innocent civilians. I stand behind that without reservation. I don’t support the use of torture, in general. I do in special cases. Simple…….”
“……..Most Americans supported torture after 911 to save lives and prevent further attacks (as I have stated twice before) which is a reasonable reaction in lieu of the murder of 3000 innocent people……..”
Mona writes;
“……One should not believe anything Craig says to or about me……..”
Mona also wrote,
“……..And altho Eichmann explicitly said, “I am a Zionist,” he didn’t mean it. Not according to the way Shalev defines “Zionism” and would prefer you to define it…..To understand why Eichmann could be both a Zionist and also have committed the atrocities he did……”
By the way, Shalev is a liberal Zionist Jew imposing (you heard right) his idea of Zionism on us. Here is what Eichmann admitted at his trial in Israel:
“…….When Hausner produced evidence that Eichmann had stated in 1945 that “I will leap into my grave laughing because the feeling that I have five million human beings on my conscience is for me a source of extraordinary satisfaction”, Eichmann said he meant “enemies of the Reich” such as the Soviets.[173] During later examination by the judges, he admitted he meant the Jews, and said the remark was an accurate reflection of his opinion at the time…..”
Typical Zionist……..according to Mona.
Dear All:
The garbage has been largely cleaned out. It smells so much better in here.
Now, the trash is gonna try to accumulate again, no doubt, but the sweeping squad is going to be more on top of things. Or so I’m told.
Good. I live in hope.
ISIS is to ISLAM
as
ZIONS are to JUDEAISM
the problem with zions is the same as with any other insect colony – insects are programmed to propagate and kill to expand.
brain gone, program in. simple is as simple is.
Nazis used to refer to Jews as insects of various types.
Israeli general Rafi Eytan described Palestinians as cockroaches.
Is that a tradition you want to be part of?
@ barabbas
just say no friend…
:)
testing
Dear All
There’s been a huge clean-up here, it smells a whole lot better! Your complaints have been heard, and more effort will be put into taking out the trash sooner as it pile sup.
Thanks, Mona!
Poor widdle Daniel Sharon is upset and so muchly afeared of Mr. Greenwald.
Heh heh… There is no evidence of “sock-puppets” lot’s of flaming claims, but zero evidence. Many of us who have Internet stalkers have these crazed wingnuts making this charge, I know I have in this thread.
One of these wingnuts keeps calling me “david” assuming that I am someone else. Jeez, I just went and read more of the crap, this time from “ace” about some other commenter Ellison and he’s claiming that Glenn put him up to it. Oh shit, now I am quoting from this drivel and I wasn’t going to:
Then from the resident TI troll gorsky/ daniel sharon/or whoever this wingnut really is, quoting Sexton quoting Foust:
Oh bullshit. More like some wingnut comment troll. If Joshua Foust or any of these so-called “journalists” had a single shred of evidence they would post it as would any self-respecting journalist. It would be a helluva story if there was any actual truth to it and no one would sit on it, that would be a stupid career move.
“Oh, I was so scared of Glenn Greenwald I was so muchly afeared for my journalistic reputation if I dared contradict him with facts. So I didn’t.”
Like I was just telling my four year-old granddaughter, ‘can I get a whaaa?’
Y’all spend a bunch of time whining and crying because the facts of mass government surveillance in the name of the terrorism that we already know mostly comes from more than several injustices of the West’s own making, including my chosen subject matter Apartheid Israel and how it has poisoned the American political system, is simply too hard for you little shrinking violets to take… Whaaa…
Oh, ‘but the terrorists hate us for our freedoms’, even as you advocate that the police state actually take away our freedoms. Freedumb is more like it.
Breitbart is a cesspool of racism and abject ignorance and censorship. It is a disgusting crap fest. If poor little dainty Foust can’t take a figurative punch, or the fact that oftentimes investigative journalism of government overreach requires security precautions to get the facts of the story, then get out of the business and go back behind the woodwork from whence you crawled out from under.
This story is such bullshit, that after spending the last hour following all the links and finding as usual, baffling bullshit and out of context partial quotes, it’s not even worth me taking the time to compile it in a text file and refute the original Breitbart hit piece. And how this crap ever made to a diary over at Markos’ place I don’t know.
Interestingly the story in Breitbart posted under the byline “John Sexton” was published August 23rd, 2013, and not a single comment in sight. I figured I would be able to pull a quote out of the comments about all the faux outraged “conservative” racist panty bunchers, but, no comments on a charged story about nothing. It claims to have had three comments at one time, but as I know from my own experience, these race hate supremacist conspiracy sites like Breitbart and American Thinker to name two, they routinely censor any and all posts and posters who provide verifiable facts that make their so-called “journalists” look like tools, and definitely not the sharpest tool in the shed…
It’s DISQUS and most people who comment anywhere have a DISQUS account and still, no comments. I wonder if there ever were and the thread got deleted after all the laughter at those idiots who would gladly give out their information to the government.
After all they say, if you have nothing to hide then spill, which is of course completely un-American and McCarthyite. Next you be claiming that Glenn has a commie flag tacked up on the wall of his garage…
The really funny part is that it is hard enough to keep factual information all neat and tidy and accessible, making fake accounts and spoofed IP addresses is simply too much of a bother for those of us who prefer factual verifiable information.
Why go to the trouble to be an anonymous boob when one can post facts under your own name and get credit for them? I think it should be self-evident why.
These fakes like the “gorskys” of the world are not sure of their information, they know most of the shit they post is bogus, so of course, they are not going to put their name on something their mommy upstairs in the main house above the basement where they live might read…
— Minion Michael(tm)
Oh my God! What happened to our friend gorsky and his inconvenient truth? All deleted! Oh my dear God! This free speech advocates hit the delete button. LOL
@Doug Salzmann & Michael Hess
The garbage removal crew has been here. Now we need air freshener for the lingering stench.
But was we discussed below, the site needs a better software system to prevent the malignant infection from returning and plastering the board with pus.
And see:
“A Moment for Palestine at This Year’s Democratic National Convention” (https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?tab=wm#inbox/154fd35e47449cd4).
gorsky (aka gorski, ghorksky and -gorsky-) has been banned multiple times here, along with several other of his accounts
He is a sociopath who followed me from another site, where he was also banned. He was banned because, having hated my writing on Israel-Palestine, he took to yet a third site to participate in a public campaign to publish my adult son’s phone number, as well as those of his neighbors, and to promote calling them to say that I was ,e.g., “a pedophile supporter.”
Indeed, to taunt me her, he has used one moniker: “her son” without the space.
Glenn Greenwald has wasted time banning him for being vicious, including viciously anti-Muslim. This creature does not respect these decisions and simply creates yet more new accounts.
Please ignore it.
Gorshy is just jealous he can’t do this in his socks…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFmb_grwfBg
takes talent……..
Good Morning Everyone…
Please visit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uwr0wHeIS8&feature=youtu.be
Palestinians to Airbnb: “We Can’t Live There. So Don’t Go There.”
Jewish Voice for Peace
Citizens from around the world ask Airbnb to stop listing and profiting from stolen, illegally occupied, Palestinian land.
How can you steal your own land?
You can’t.
You can, however, steal others’ land, which is the issue here.
Israel is Jewish land. If settlers arriving in the Americas dug, they would not find ancient churches, but if you dig in Israel, you will find ancient synagogues & Jewish ritual baths.
Jews have a deed to the land. There’s a Torah that’s over a thousand years old. You don’t have to believe in God, but this ancient document lists the names of the owners of the land (the 12 sons of Jacob [also called Israel]) & the boundaries of the land. In other words, it’s a deed to the land naming the children of Israel as the owners.
When you buy property, you do a title search & you buy title insurance just in case someone shows up with an older deed to the property.
“There is no such thing as an invisible skydaddy who hands out land deeds to chosen people, no more than there is some guy in the sky maintaining the virgins and paradise for martyrs(tm).”
Sorry about your luck. When you argue that there is some magical skydaddy giving you rights from on high, this is as fundamentalist as Islamic State or the Lord’s Resistance Army.
Again. learn the difference between property rights and sovereignty. Jeez with “friends” like you Israel is doomed.
And “jack green” one has to laugh at you trying to take a position that even the Apartheid Israeli government does not take. Perhaps in UNGA 273 you can point out where Israel was admitted as a UN member because a magical skydaddy in the sky said so?
Hmmm, let’s take a look shall we?
Nope. No skydaddy in there. It does however reiterate what I have long maintained, “Recalling its resolutions of 29 November 1947 and 11 December 1948 and taking note of the declarations and explanations made by the representative of the Government of Israel before the Ad Hoc Political Committee in respect of the implementation of the said resolutions…”
The Apartheid state of Israel is not a “peace loving country”, that is self-evident to anyone who spends a modicum of time learning about Israel’s various invasions and incursion and thefts from other nations in the region, and it most certainly is not complying with its promise to the Security Council that it would comply with the borders that it agreed to under UNGA 181, and having more than 754,000 illegal squatters in Palestine outside of Israel proves beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Israel is a rogue state, incapable of following international law and agreements that itself entered into, and it should be dismantled as the state terror colonial operation that it is forthwith, world security depends on it as does American National Security.
In short, Apartheid Israel is in gross non-compliance with UNGA 273 and should be suspended from UN membership until the regime of the Zionist Entity is destroyed and replaced with an actual democracy instead of the sham democracy that it currently is, existing still and only due to the American auto-veto in the Security Council.
Although with the elevation of illegal colonists Avigdor “transfer plan” Lieberman, and the nonsense they are doing extrajudicially with physicist Imad Barghouthi, the next UN resolution denouncing Israel’s illegal colonies should be easy for President Obama to sign on to. Although of course, UNSCR 465 didn’t have enough teeth.
I did not claim that the deed was written by an invisible skydaddy.
That Israel defends itself when attacked does not mean that Israel is not a “peace loving country.”
Uh huh. You trolls never take responsibility for what you write, most especially when you are wrong, and that is the usual condition of a Hasbara troll.
“I did not claim that the deed was written by an invisible skydaddy.” And yet you wrote a justification wrongly using Torah as a bludgeon for illegal colonization. You write:
You say the “children of Israel [are] the owners.” And yet Hanan Schlesinger over at Rabbis Without Borders at the My Jewish Learning site does not agree with your interpretation:
Then you blithely tack on some more pure idiocy writing: ‘That Israel defends itself when attacked does not mean that Israel is not a “peace loving country.'”
Leaving aside the fact that it is completely ludicrous to make such a claim, I think an example out of hundreds is in order.
Mmmm, Hasbara trolls are crunchy but still need more salt.
Hmm! Interesting website. Thx
Hi Jack…
http://www.nkusa.org/AboutUs/Zionism/opposition.cfm Why Orthodox Jews are Opposed To a Zionist State
First some introductions:
1) What is “The People of Israel” ?
The People of Israel have existed for thousands of years.
They have their own particular, essential nature.
The Torah is the source of their essential nature.
Without Torah and Faith there is no People of Israel.
Whoever denies the Torah and the Faith is no longer part of the People of Israel.
The purpose of the People of Israel in this world is Divine Service.
Their salvation is occupation in Divine Service.
2) What is Zionism?
Zionism is a relatively new thing.
It has only existed for a century.
Zionism redefines the true essential nature of the People of Israel, and substitutes for it a completely contradictory and opposite character – a materialistic worldly nation.
Their misfortune is lack of what other nations possess, i.e. a state and army.
Their salvation is possession of a state and army etc.
This is clearly spelled out in the circles of Zionist thought, and among the leaders of the Zionist State, that through changing the nature and character of the People of Israel and by changing their way of thinking they can set before the People of Israel “their salvation” — a state and an army.
The People of Israel oppose the so-called “State of Israel” for four reasons:
FIRST — The so-called “State of Israel” is diametrically opposed and completely contradictory to the true essence and foundation of the People of Israel, as is explained above. The only time that the People of Israel were permitted to have a state was two thousand years ago when the glory of the creator was upon us, and likewise in the future when the glory of the creator will once more be revealed, and the whole world will serve Him, then He Himself (without any human effort or force of arms) will grant us a kingdom founded on Divine Service. However, a worldly state, like those possessed by other peoples, is contradictory to the true essence of the People of Israel. Whoever calls this the salvation of Israel shows that he denies the essence of the People of Israel, and substitutes another nature, a worldly materialistic nature, and therefore sets before them, a worldly materialistic “salvation,” and the means of achieving this “salvation” is also worldly and materialistic i.e. to organize a land and army. However, the true salvation of the People of Israel is to draw close to the Creator. This is not done by organization and force of arms. Rather it is done by occupation to Torah and good deeds.
SECOND — Because of all of this and other reasons the Torah forbids us to end the exile and establish a state and army until the Holy One, blessed He, in His Glory and Essence will redeem us. This is forbidden even if the state is conducted according to the law of the Torah because arising from the exile itself is forbidden, and we are required to remain under the rule of the nations of the world, as is explained in the book VAYOEL MOSHE. If we transgress this injunction, He will bring upon us (may we be spared) terrible punishment.
THIRD — Aside from arising from exile, all the deeds of the Zionists are diametrically opposed to the Faith and the Torah. Because the foundation of the Faith and Torah of Israel is that the Torah was revealed from heaven, and there is reward for those who obey it and punishment for those who transgress it. The entire People of Israel is required to obey the Torah, and whoever doesn’t want to, ceases to be part of the congregation of Israel.
FOURTH — Aside from the fact that they themselves do not obey the Torah they do everything they can to prevent anyone they get under their power from fulfilling the commands of the Torah, the claims to freedom of religion are lies. They fight with all of their strength to destroy the Faith of Israel.
The Zionists claim that they are the saviors of Israel, but this is refuted by twelve things:
FIRST — If one contemplates the two thousand years of our exile, take any hundred years even the hardest, one will not find as much suffering, bloodshed, and catastrophes for the People of Israel in the period of the Zionists, and it is known that most of the suffering of this century was caused by the Zionists, as our Rabbis warned us would be the case.
SECOND — It is openly stated in books written by the founders of Zionism that the means by which they planned to establish a state was by instigating anti-Semitism, and undermining the security of the Jews in all the lands of the world, until they would be forced to flee to their state. And thus they did – They intentionally infuriated the German people and fanned the flames of Nazi hatred, and they helped the Nazis, with trickery and deceit, to take whole Jewish communities off to the concentration camps, and the Zionists themselves admit this. (See the books Perfidy, Min Hameitzor, etc.). The Zionists continue to practice this strategy today. They incite anti-Semitism and then they present themselves as the “saviors”. Here are two replies given by Leaders of the Zionists during World War II, when they were asked for money to help ransom Jews from the Nazis. Greenbaum said “One cow in Palestine is worth more than all the Jews in Poland.” (G-d forbid).
Weitzman said, “The most important part of the Jewish people is already in the land (of Israel) and those who are left, are unimportant” (May we be spared).
THIRD — We see that most of world Jewry lives in security and under good physical conditions, and have no desire to go live in the Zionist State. Whereas many people have left the Zionist State to live under better conditions in other lands.
FOURTH — The Zionists make a great deal of propaganda to induce people to immigrate to their state. If their state is so beneficial why do they have to make so much propaganda.
FIFTH — Because nobody wants the Zionists to “save” them. The only way they can get immigrants is by promising poor people material benefits, and even then very few people respond.
SIXTH — The Zionist State is always threatened by the dangers of war. Whereas the rest of world Jewry live in peace and security, (Except in a few places where the Zionists have undermined their security and fanned the flames of hatred)
SEVENTH — The Zionist State could not continue to exist without economic support from Jews living outside of the Zionist State.
EIGHTH — The Zionist State is on the verge of economic collapse, and their money is nearly worthless.
NINTH — The Zionist State persecute all Jews who are loyal to their Faith.
TENTH — They start wars that endanger the Jewish People, for the sake of their own political interests.
ELEVENTH – According to the Torah the path of safety is following ways of peace not starting fights with other nations, as the Zionists do.
TWELFTH — Even if the Zionists could and would provide physical security it would be at the expense of our Faith and Our Torah the true People of Israel prefer death rather than life at such a cost.
It is therefore clear that Zionism is not the savior of the people of Israel. Rather it is their greatest misfortune.
Even though there are some observant Jews and rabbis, who approve of the Zionists, this is not the opinion of the Torah.
The Zionists have enough control over the American news media to make sure that only their side of the story is heard.
They make it look like all Jewry and their rabbis are Zionists, but this is false propaganda.
The most important Rabbis and the majority of religious Jewry are opposed to Zionism, but their voice is not heard because of Zionist control of American news media.
The Zionists terrorize everyone who speaks out against them.
That part of the Jewish masses which is fooled by Zionist propaganda puts pressure on their Rabbis not to speak out.
Between the terror and the pressure of the masses most of the Rabbis are prevented from speaking out.
We bring three testimonies of the true opinion of the Torah.
1) In the past two thousand years of the dangers and sufferings of exile not once did any of the Sages of Israel suggest that we make a state to protect ourselves. In every generation we had thousands of Sages well versed in the Torah.
2) We have thousands of legal work of Torah law that have been handed down to us by the Sages of all generations. Not once do we see a word suggesting the establishment of a state. What we do find is warnings against it.
3) The founders of Zionism were all atheists who denied the Torah. All the Torah Sages of that time opposed them and opposed Zionism, saying that Zionism would lead only to destruction.
However the true People of Israel will never change their nature or give up their Faith because of the strength the Creator gives them.
Zionism is a foreign growth in the body of the Jewish People. The end will be that it will rid itself of this foreign growth and remain pure.
Zionism has overcome the Jewish people by force, fraud and terror, but none of this will help them because the truth will always remain with the help of the Creator.
Zionism will not replace the Jewish People. The Jewish People will remain strong in their faith and the Zionist State will cease to exist.
It is therefore, our demand that the State that calls itself ISRAEL, should cease to exist. Since this won’t be done, we demand that they cease to call themselves “Israel”, because their entire being is in complete opposition to the true People of Israel. The true People of Israel deny them permission to call themselves by that name. The Zionist leaders have no right to set themselves up as the representatives and spokesmen of the true People of ISRAEL.
Since we know they will not fulfill this demand either we feel that at least we cry out the truth. The truth will always remain the truth. By no means or force can the truth be changed. Even if all the world would say that one and one is three, the truth will remain that one and one is two.
Let the truth be declared. The use of the Name “ISRAEL” by that State is a complete falsification. The People of Israel have nothing to do with that State. Zionism and its State have no share and no part in the true ISRAEL.
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It’s wrong to dehumanize people.
Gotta go with Gator on the insect line.
Steve
“…….99% of “pro-Palestinian” Internet types just seem to hate Israel’s existence. They aren’t pro-Palestinian. They don’t want Palestinians to have peace and a state next to Israel. They just want the Jewish state dead/gone. That’s their motivation, and it shows in every sentence…….”
Most “liberals” would like to see the two state solution – two states side by side. You are referring to the extreme left (or anti-colonialist left) – the folks who regularly visit this site. Fortunately, they are a relatively small population in the west infiltrating academia and the media mostly in Europe and to a lesser extent in the US.
The focus is primarily on delegitimizing the Jewish State (apartheid, Zionism equals racism etc.). The perpetual attacks on “Zionism” (itself) on this site are just one more way to undercut the legitimacy of Israel. Support for the BDS movement is ubiquitous within the political movement (for obvious reasons). They couch their hatred of the Jewish state in the human rights of the Palestinians, but their obsessive criticism of the Jewish state has its roots in the colonial era and in anti-Americanism.
By far the best example is Mona who post more than anyone – mainly to delegitimize Zionism (even supporting the position of anti-Semite, Ken Livingston when he said that Hitler “supported” Zionism). She is the classic radical leftist totally in denial over the causes for the Zionist movement in the 1800s. Ben Cohen writes (abstract; The Persistence of Anti-Semitism on the British Left, 2004):
“……..Much of the recent analysis of leftist anti-Semitism focuses on developments since the outbreak of the second intifada in September 2000. This article, which takes Britain as a case study, seeks to situate what is commonly referred to as the “new” anti-Semitism in a historical context, arguing that many of the anti-Semitic themes currently present in leftwing and liberal discourse have been observable in the past. The article analyzes the evolution of leftist anti-Semitism, concentrating in particular on the motif of delegitimization that marks discussions of Zionism and Israel. It concludes that the organizational alignment of leftist and Islamist organizations, and the ongoing integration of Islamist and leftist attitudes toward Jews, represents a qualitative shift in the nature of leftist anti-Semitism in Britain…….”
Israel has no legitimacy outside of its declared borders. Jeez, just what is so freaking hard to understand for you incessant trolls?
But as I said yesterday Vladimir Putin thanks you. If you believe that the Zionist colonial Apartheid state of Israel has the right to use military force to expand it’s borders because of some religious claptrap instead of the rule of law, Islamic State thanks you for your support as well.
Why do you refuse to understand that clear meaning of Article 2(4) of the UN Charter that underpins ‘territory acquired by war is inadmissible’?
For you to be logically consistent, then you must obviously support Islamic State because they are merely doing the very same thing that Israel and the yishuv before has done for a century.
You must also fully support Russia’s taking by force of Crimea, with designs on the Ukraine.
For myself, I’ll stick to the rule of law, knowing that all three are war crimes and crimes against humanity. But for you Hasbara trolls, Israel alone of all UN member states can do whatever it wants, kill and steal and demolish in ways that you would not (maybe) support in Crimea or Islamic State.
Indeed there is a double-standard. You trolls expect all Muslim states to conform to international law and UN resolutions but for Israel it’s a free-for-all where you seem to believe it is perfectly acceptable for them to steal another country by force.
Michael
“…….Israel has no legitimacy outside of its declared borders. Jeez, just what is so freaking hard to understand for you incessant trolls?……”
There is nothing in my post about the final borders of Israel in a two state solution. My post focuses on folks who (effectively) support the one state solution so you really have no idea where I stand on on any future peace agreement between Israelis and the Palestinians. I support the two state solution. If Israel withdrew tomorrow to the green line, I would be perfectly happy. I am not an Israeli, or Jewish, but I firmly believe in Jewish self-determination.
The ICJ (2004) rightfully affirmed the right of self-determination for the Palestinians so it is important for the Israelis to seek a solution (which probably isn’t going to happen under Netanyahu). They came reasonably close to agreements in 2000 (and 2008), so I think a solution is still possible.
Finally, you cannot call me a troll while calling ethnic cleansing of Jews “kicking out the invaders”. Indeed, your use of terms “apartheid” and “colonial” are far left wing political terms without application to Israel which are strictly meant to delegitimize the Jewish majority state. The BDS movement is a losing cause for the Palestinians giving them false hope although Israel intransigence could lead to some targeted sanctions in the future to force a two state solution. However, the west will never support bringing down the one Jewish state in the world (as much as Mona would love to believe in that possibility).
Thanks
Fair enough Craig. The thing is, the baseline for me is what Israel told President Truman on May 14th, 1948 and the Security Council eight days later. The nascent provisional government of Israel fully and unequivocally accepted UNGA 181 and the international law that made it all possible, and this is how Israel gained admittance to the UN in UNGA 273.
There are fewer Hasbara trolls than there were ten years ago and today’s trolls often deny that Israel was created in Palestine, and many of them even deny that Palestinians exist, this goes back to Golda Meyerson (Meir) and it gets my dander up when anyone does it because by implication, they are saying that Jews apparently can’t read or know Zionist history and all that and that of course, is ridiculous.
I too have supported and advocated the Two State Solution(tm) for decades, but of late, and starting about ten years ago I have come to the conclusion as so many other informed observers have, that it is simply too late.
Where are those 754,000 illegal colonists supposed to go? For those that pay attention to the other aspects involved in running a state, Bibi has been confronted with a huge demonstration a few years ago because of high costs and people not being able to find a place to live, and this with government encouragement helped fuel the move for them to Palestine. This makes the One State(tm) in my view an impossible end point to avoid.
Where the situation is today did not just happen because Muslims intrinsically hate Jews. It has always been primarily about a foreign group of interlopers coming in to take over Palestine based on bringing back an Israel that was never a modern state and the basis is said to be a “rebirth” that would necessarily be referring back to 70 AD.
It’s long been my position that Israel has a valid legitimacy within the context of Britain’s ultimate fuckup. Regardless of the fact that Balfour was a cynical move to garner Zionist support especially in America for the allied war effort in the Great War; it was going badly, they needed to be able to sustain the war effort by every means including making promises that were later going to turn out problematically.
Is this really Craig? That is probably one of the most reasonable and factual statements in this thread.
It’s a rhetorical device Craig. It’s a matter of forcing people to think from the point of view from the Other side. What makes it work as all good rhetorical devices is the element of truth they’re informed by.
When viewing the totality of the evidence from all the primary documents and scholarly history, while the entire world was consumed by the War to End All Wars the Arab world was equally consumed and then Balfour was a real stunner.
From 1917 of course, the Arab world was convinced that Jews from Elsewhere, it didn’t really matter where, were coming to take Palestine. The ensuing history shows that they were right, and by the time Jordan came into the picture it was simply a matter of factness that Zionists were intent on taking as much as they could get away with and pretty much everyone on the planet knew this, see that helpful CIA assessment elsewhere in this thread.
On the terms Apartheid and colonial, those are just not debatable. It’s not some “far left wing” political thing. Hopefully Yitzhak Rabin’s documentary is playing in your city or near enough to you so you can see it. Or read the reports/reviews about it on the Web. I’m not the guy who is just sitting here making things up, Rabin warned about it In His Own Words in 1976 that the “settlers” were a “cancer” and Israel would become “Apartheid.”
This has been echoed by many well-respected people all over from former Israeli prime minister’s to former President Jimmy Carter to Secretary of State John Kerry. It’s not new, Desmond Tutu has said of course, that Israel’s Apartheid is far worse than South Africa’s former Apartheid.
On “colonial”, this term too is simply not up for debate. When Jan Smuts was formulating the principles of the League of Nations one of the driving factors was his decided effort to end colonialism because in his view, that it was the main impetus for war.
In spite of Sykes-Picot, the main thrust of Article 22 in the Covenant was to created a mandate system of the states and near states that were thrown adrift by war. Palestine was a Class-A mandate state under paragraphs 1 and 4, and if we fast forward from that time in the historical timeline to now, with 754,000 illegal colonists over the border from a state that was colonized in an already existing state under international law, it hardly seems cricket that you could be so reasonable in the first part of your comment but have a problem with the reality of Israel’s self-evident Apartheid and colonialism in the occupied territories.
This kind of stuff is what drives me absolutely mad. How do you go from the perfectly reasonable position that the ICJ decision in 2004 was just and appropriate when it found that Israel was bound by the 4th Geneva Convention in particular Article 49(6) that prohibits the transfer of the occupier nation from transferring it’s citizens into occupied territory, colonization, to the tune of 754,000 illegal colonists into Palestine “in 163 official Israeli settlements and 98 informal outposts on Palestinian land, including 24 neighborhoods in East Jerusalem de facto annexed to Israel (a total of 261 settlements)” [If Americans Knew] to claming it’s not colonialism?
What do you call that exactly then? If this is not colonialism, then I would like to know what using military force to take over another country’s land and send in citizens from the invading country to live and create towns and cities and universities and commercial activity?
Even though you obviously got that last part totally wrong. thanks for a reasonable effort at some evenhandedness. You may just be one of those people who can be reached with facts because Hasbara trolls never ever acknowledge the ICJ advisory opinion from 2004 so I won’t call you a Hasbara troll anymore if you are really interested in exploring what is factually known about this conflict situation.
Why should the settlers have to go anywhere?
“Why should the settlers have to go anywhere?”
You just chum the waters. That’s fun, sometimes …
I was asking a serious question.
The obvious answer is because they are illegal trespassers. Of course, you would know this and may already know this. But just for fun, let me clue you in one more time, I’ve got my coarse Kosher salt right here next to my laptop.
On December 17th, 2014, the High Contracting Parties to the Geneva Conventions reaffirmed once again that the colonies, lock stock and bagel are completely and unequivocally illegal. I’ve already posted the ICJ advisory opinion from 2004 coming to the same conclusion, but I am always happy to provide supporting evidence to truth-seekers such as yourself who have a learning disability.
But wait, there’s more. If you act now for the same low price you can receive the One State(tm) as an added bonus!
If you dip them in a little bit of teriyaki sauce, crunchy Hasbara trolls are much like sweet and sour pork. The One State(tm), brought to you by the now crispy Hasbara troll “jack green”…
With a little bit of sweet Manischewitz, you almost forget what you are chewing…
Apartheid? Where are the separate water fountains & bathrooms?
Why are there Arabs in the Israeli parliament & on the Israeli Supreme Court?
Michael
“………On the terms Apartheid and colonial, those are just not debatable. It’s not some “far left wing” political thing. Hopefully Yitzhak Rabin’s documentary is playing in your city or near enough to you so you can see it. Or read the reports/reviews about it on the Web. I’m not the guy who is just sitting here making things up, Rabin warned about it In His Own Words in 1976 that the “settlers” were a “cancer” and Israel would become “Apartheid.”……..”
WOULD become an apartheid system – which makes sense (IMHO). If Israel incorporated all of Palestine, but denied voting rights to Palestinians I would agree. The basis for calling Israel an apartheid system was UN Resolution 3379. UN Resolution 3379 stated (well before there was any significant amount of settlements in the West Bank),
“…….Taking note also of resolution 77 (XII) adopted by the Assembly of Heads of State and Government of the Organization of African Unity at its twelfth ordinary session, held at Kampala from 28 July to 1 August 1975, which considered “that the racist regime in occupied Palestine and the racist regime in Zimbabwe and South Africa have a common imperialist origin, forming a whole and having the same racist structure and being organically linked in their policy aimed at repression of the dignity and integrity of the human being”,…….”
The resolution, in effect, compared Israel to apartheid South Africa (with the same” imperialist origin”) – and labeled Zionism a form of racism. This was international politics at its worst. This false comparison (despite the UN overturning the resolution) has been utilized by the radical left (and the far right) for political purposes to undermine the legitimacy of Israel. It doesn’t matter what Tutu or Jimmy Carter say – or anyone else for that matter. The racial laws of South Africa formed the basis for the apartheid regime in South Africa. Laws in Israel (land and immigration) ensure a Jewish majority because Jews are a small population world-wide. This by no means implies there is no racism, bigotry and discrimination in Israel (or from the Palestinians). Obviously, there is plenty of racism, but not an apartheid system. Bahrain is much closer to the definition of apartheid where the minority Sunni population rules over the majority Shiites. Iraq and Syria were ruled by minority populations (Sunnis and Alawites, respectively).
In addition, South Africa, (former) Rhodesia and Israel don’t have a common (colonial) imperial origin. This is another extreme use of propaganda to delegitimize Israel hence the use of the term “colonialism”. The Zionists certainly used the great colonial powers to create a state, but the motivations and aspirations of the Zionist movement were completely different than the colonial expansions of the British and French Empires.
Your use of the term “colonial” to describe the West Bank and East Jerusalem settlements is also used for propaganda purposes if you don’t qualify the terminology by excluding Israel proper from the usage. Let’s also remember that the IJC decisions in 2004 was a twenty-first century political necessity which recognized the Palestinian right to self-determination. I would be hesitant to just dismiss all of the previous agreements including the San Remo Resolution and the Mandate for Palestine as irrelevant (but I am not a lawyer). What the IJC got right was that Palestinian self-determination was not possible under the current expansion by Israel. In addition, the Oslo Accords signed by the representative of the Palestinians (Arafat) recognized some wiggle room in the final border determinations. In other words, Israel is not going to move everyone out of the West Bank and East Jerusalem although I think peace would have a better chance if they did.
“…….it was simply a matter of factness that Zionists were intent on taking as much as they could get away with and pretty much everyone on the planet knew this, see that helpful CIA assessment elsewhere in this thread……”
And everyone on the planet probably understood that the Palestinian Arab and Arab leadership were not going to give the Jews anything. Regardless, the Palestinians (and Arab leadership) chose resistance and war when the partition plan was announced while the Jewish leadership accepted the partition plan. While no one might have expected the Palestinians to be thrilled by the plan, they chose to go to war which turned out to be a large mistake. Even then, the Palestinians had an opportunity to build a state within the Green line between 1949 and 1967, but chose to resist the Israeli “occupation”. I am not saying that they should have rolled over, but they gambled and lost. The signed Oslo Accords only highlighted the massive mistake made by Palestinian Arab and Arab leadership by rejecting the partition plan in the first place.
“……..It’s a rhetorical device Craig. It’s a matter of forcing people to think from the point of view from the Other side. What makes it work as all good rhetorical devices is the element of truth they’re informed by……”
It doesn’t work. You just lose credibility.
Thanks.
‘
It’s the Arabs who are expansionist. The Arab League has over 5 million square miles of land while Israel has about 8,000. The Arabs have 99.9 % of the land & Israel has 0.1% of the land. The Arabs are not satisfied with 99.9% of the land. They have been attacking Israel from the day she was reborn.
“They have been attacking Israel from the day she was reborn.”
The idea of a reborn people is so Third Reich …
Israel steals more land every day.
How can you steal your own land?
What tattered religious document are you referring to as proof of ownership?
Jews were and are a disseminated people, no different than any other minority group. Jews have no more right to biblical land than blue-eyed, blond haired, Germanic tribes have a birthright to northern Europe.
There’s a Bible that’s over a thousand years old that lists the names of the owners (he 12 sons of Jacob) & the boundaries. Those are the legal elements of a deed. No one else has a deed to the land that’s even close to being that old.
http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/hebrew-bible/what-is-the-oldest-hebrew-bible/
“No one else has a deed to the land that’s even close to being that old.”
The signature is smudged.
The bible, any bible, is not a legally binding document. It has been written and rewritten to suit the author’s need over time. get over it.
Jews have been stealing Palestinian land, with righteous indignation, for 8 decades and counting.
BDS until it succeeds.
You should treat people as individuals.
Gator90 ? Sufi Muslim
May 29 2016, 4:51 a.m.
Thank you very much, Gator. I appreciate it.
There are some long-term (permanent) issues. Obviously, I can’t go into detail in this public forum. I was quite dizzy last night while unwisely scanning this thread and posting some comments on my iPad in bed. I’m better this morning as far as that specific issue is concerned.
I have a very soft spot for the Jews and Judaism. When we were young we used to read about the Holocaust and literally burst into tears with deep sadness. We could not imagine anyone committing such horrific acts.
Unfortunately, there’s quite a bit of anti-Semitism amongst the Muslims, primarily due to political reasons, but also due to what’s been written in the Muslims’ religious books, many of which I don’t consider to be authentic, some of which (e.g., the Quran), I read differently than an average Muslim and most traditional Muslim “scholars” do.
For example, I read in the Quran that a piece of land in the area (larger than where Israel today is) was reserved for the Children of Israel, and the Children of Israel were expected to become the Light unto Other Nations in terms of high moral and spiritual values.
In real life I warn the Muslims not to generalize and stereotype, and stop being conspiracy theorists. I tell them about the doctrine of Transcendent Unity of Religions, something that is not well-known and well-accepted by the Muslims, generally speaking, save a few Sufi groups I have encountered.
The differences amongst us have gone from sibling rivalry to disaster. And I feel helpless.
But there are some very good signs.
Many in the younger generations who have a chance to interact with the children of Israel are not anti-Semites. Sadly, there are hardly any opportunities for the Muslims who live in the Muslim majority countries to interact with our Jewish cousins.
Just two days ago, a local Imam spent all of his Friday prayer sermon saying very good things about the Jews, something I had never ever never heard an imam do in any parts of the world.
The ethnic cleansing that has taken place in some Muslim countries is devastating. The Muslims there have lost the opportunity to interact with the non-Muslims, learn a thing or two from them and allow the cross-fertilization of ideas. The result is that they have become frogs in a well and are mired in conspiracy theories.
There were once thriving Jewish populations in many areas, now Muslim majority modern states.
But no more.
I generally do not have the energy to read most of the comments here. So I just scan the comments section and see if something catches my eye.
I feel guilty that I don’t speak out against anti-Semitism much here, and gorsky was correct to call me out. But I see that in the comments sections of articles about Israel, the discussions are primarily on these:
1. History. I am not a student of history. And I see that each side draws a line when history of humankind began.
2. Blaming this side or that side. I find this to be futile.
3. Political dimension. I’m not a fan of politics; I see that the political systems in the world cater to the lower self.
Anyhoo, this post has become larger than I had originally intended.
So, take care,
Shalom Aleichem (We Muslims say it like, As Salaamu `Alaikum)
I call bullshít. Pics or you’re a hasbarat posting as a fake Muslim in a pathetic bid to trick the gullible.
Krato I think was a god of war and the personification of all authority.
Klates I think means breaker of.
You are against authority, it would seem, yet you maintain the authority to disparage a person on a hunch.
To regular readers and to those that are aware, Sufi is one of the kindest, caring, loving, compassionate commenters here.
I say to you Sir, that before you accuse others, look to your own feet.
Kratoklastes what justanotherone says of Sufi is entirely correct. I admire her a very great deal.
All three Abrahamic religions have mystic traditions, and in Islam Sufism is the strongest contender. In Christianity, the contemplatives such as Thomas Merton are like Sufi. (I’ll leave to a Jewish person to identify this strand in Judaism, but I know it is also found there.)
Typically, the mystics are far, far less doctrinaire than their co-coreligionists in the particular faith. One Catholic mystic in my family says he, as a mystic, has more in common with Sufis than he does with his local bishop.
I am not a mystic; indeed I’m an atheist. All , my life I’ve been heavily involved in political advocacy; it is what I do and who I am. The world needs people like me, but it also needs people like Sufi. At some of the noblest moments in human history political activists have joined with the Sufis of the world, or even been a bit of a Sufi themselves; good change and justice happen when that occurs.
We have Sufis in our Sufi community. who are of Jewish heritage, some with fathers and grandfathers who were rabbis.
They were not required to, but they decided to convert to Sufism.
A few of them tried out Kabbalah (an esoteric strain within Judaism) prior to adopting a form of Sufi Islam.
I believe Madonna once looked into Sufism in Turkey, but preferred Kabbalah.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabbalah
Yes, I’m sure you could do without my “invective.” You are an actual antisemite, one of a number I’ve called out for it. (As has Gator, who will not reply to you at all, while I very occasionally do.)
“The world needs people like me,”
We could do without the invective and labels, though …
I do not believe altruism may be attributed to Abrahamic beliefs. Altruism is certainly tucked in there but altruism exists in many specie of mammal.
That one Abrahamic religion chose to outlaw altruism …
We are the followers of ibn Arabi and Rumi.
Here’s a short poem of ibn Arabi:
My heart has become capable of every form:
It is a pasture for gazelles,
And a monastery for Christian monks,
And a temple for idols,
And the pilgrim to Ka`bah,
And the tablets of the Torah,
And the Book of the Qur’an.
I follow the religion of Love:
Whatever way Love’s camel takes,
That is my religion and my faith.
What ibn Arabi is saying is that our striving is to transcend the outer form and experience the inner essence, which reflects love and sees no other-ness.
All paths are like the radii on the same circle. They differ on the circumference (which represents the outer) and merge at the center (in the esoteric realm).
And, that’s the primary reason for me to feel kinship with “others”, but in reality, there’s no otherness.
So it’s natural to feel the pain of our Jewish cousins when they were mercilessly slaughtered during WWII.
How can anyone not feel their pain?
But for you to suggest what you suggested, is a reflection of your own inner self, which appears to be in a state of doubt and suspicion.
In our contemporary world, our calling, as I see it, is to strive to grooming our inner self so that it reflects the higher qualities that I have listed here often, regardless of a person’s religious, spiritual or non-religious path. The atheists have access to the light within as much as those who have beclouded their inner self with religious dogmas, which often are actually a barrier to letting the self experience the higher consciousness.
http://www.zahrapublications.com
Decent article on the change in attitude toward Palestinian rights and the fact that Clinton is on the wrong side: http://www.salon.com/2016/05/29/hillarys_on_the_wrong_side_of_history_again_noam_chomsky_palestinian_freedom_and_a_policy_stuck_in_the_past/
Thanks for the tip. Best comment over there so far:
“Clinton the neo-con supports Bibi without question. Bullshit on that. She is a creature of our past, not our future.”
Yup, thanks.
Split postings to avoid the multiple-link-defect in TI forum software.
You mean that’s where my posts went with multiple supporting links debunking the nonsense about who started the 1967 war? Good to know.
Once you get to this number of comments, this set-up is so clunky it’s really hard to find anything, and I also noticed that you have top goose a comment link to find it because of that click to comment link that stops the page from rendering directly to the comment.
I’ll do it for free. DISQUS could be installed, photos and embedded links could be controlled, as well as likes and the way to sort them. As an aside I have no professional relationship with DISQUS, I just like it out of all of them including Viafoura and the silly IMspot thing, and Facebook comments for WordPress just flatly sucks big time.
You now understand perfectly. However, as Mona has pointed out, TPTB don’t seem to be with us on this one.
I’ve even thought about the possibility of a separate comment site with links back to the TI articles . . . leaving the mess here for those who prefer messes.
We could support it with PayPal donations, to keep Pierre sweet. ;^)
I’ve not taken the time to read every post, but it appears we have in a jumbled way the best and the worst from all sides of the issue from people who have obviously done lots of homework. I appreciate their time. Yes, there are scholarly books that cover the same ground, but they involve even more time and force the moderately knowledgeable to refer endlessly to more books, the sum of which only the scholars can keep up with.
For everyday people who don’t have that much time but who try to keep up as best they can with important issues of history, humanity and justice, I’m for Doug’s idea, where all relevant entries of this particular commentary would be gathered into an archive, closed but available to anyone who might like to bone up on the history and the options for activists and bystanders.
The moderator or editor need only apply light editorial snips; let the record, the propaganda and the poison lie side by side for the reader to judge. Such an archived discussion will not be the whole library, just the record of a great seminar of service over the next few years as a valuable, comprehensive reference, the one Wiki is no longer allowed to write. And I hope such a set-aside archive could be put together, organized, and made available right here in a corner of TI without ever having to hand over a dime to PayPal.
@Gorsky -“the German Nazis and the Palestinians”
As regular readers of GG’s comment board probably know, I tend to take offense at comparisons of Israel to Nazi Germany. Israel’s sins, though legion, obviously pale in comparison to those of the Nazis, and to compare Jews (even immoral Jews) to the people who exterminated one third of the global Jewish population in less than a decade is ten kinds of wrong.
But with that said, I think it is even more twisted to compare Palestinians — who are, under any rational analysis, the victims of oppression at the hands of Jews — to the Nazis. That is just fucking sick.
Shame.
99% of “pro-Palestinian” Internet types just seem to hate Israel’s existence. They aren’t pro-Palestinian. They don’t want Palestinians to have peace and a state next to Israel. They just want the Jewish state dead/gone. That’s their motivation, and it shows in every sentence.
Total Zio horsesh*t.
AntiZionists have nothing against the state of Israel,it is an escape hatch for traitors within the USA and other nations to head to when the shit hits our fans.A safe secure Israel is in our interests.
The problem we have is the death grip on America by Zion,which makes US do things not in our interests,and are disasterous.
But they will never ever attain the security they desire until their self made enemies are afforded the same security.
Simple.
I have repeatedly told them that it would be far better if they actually learned how to defend Israel based on the rule of law, instead of the usual justifications of their hatreds and biases against Muslims in general and Palestinians in particular.
This period of time in American history where when Americans are polled about Israel-Palestine and they automatically think, suicide bombers for one side, and hark the herald angels sing on the other.
Americans’ Sunday School view of Apartheid Israel is wearing off however. With the millennials, I think the largest younger generation in American history leading the way to change by eschewing lockstep support of Israel no matter what it does.
There is a valid case to be made for Israel, just within its own declared and internationally recognized borders. Given the constraints of Article 2 (4) which underpins ‘territory acquired by war is inadmissible’ it doesn’t seem too much to ask.
The “Steves” of the world don’t view these things, they cannot see through that veil of hate for the “other”, that nightmare, the jihadi they look for under their bed every night.
Sorry to be so blunt, Michael, but you might as well have told them that it would be far better if they actually learned how to defend Israel by squaring the circle.
Sorry to be so blunt again, Michael, but the only “valid case to be made for Israel” is the one you’re going put the Zionist apartheid terror entity inside of, before you toss that odious little relic into the trash can of history.
Hmmm, I had to put the grill on hold for this one. While I agree that the Zionist Entity must be completely destroyed, that is not Israel. For many years I have made this argument based upon statements coming from Iran about the Zionist Entity.
I think that the cynical attempt at enlisting Zionist help for the allied war effort during the Great War which resulted in the Balfour policy statement was a grave error after Britain had already promised the Palestinians self-determination almost two years before.
Most especially because that cute little diddy that a lot of us were raised on, ‘a land without a people for a people without a land’ was just so much Zionist Hasbara propaganda bullshit.
I know the history well but fast forwarding to now, we have 6.3 million indigenous Palestinians to 6.3 million mostly transplanted European and Russian Israeli Jews, and I do not think that any US administration will act in time enough to prevent the default outcome of the One State(tm).
However, in my dreams I have long had a fantasy that comports with the rule of law and if realized would bring the entire Muslim world to its knees in collective amazement if the following happened and Apartheid Israel, the Zionist Entity was finally and completely brought to justice.
Bernie Sanders (or reasonable equivalent, he’s already changed the debate forever) is elected, uses Executive Authority to end all military aid and the soft aid to Apartheid Israel from various domestic American “non-profits” like John Hagee and those of that ilk who monetarily support an ongoing crime against humanity on US National Security grounds (planes flying into buildings), couched in those terms with no weasel words or soft diplomatic nonsense like using terms like “illegitimate” instead of illegal as all get out. And such.
Once that is done, make it perfectly clear to Israel that relations could then only improve with the United States if Israel removes its three-quarters of a million illegal squatters from across Israel’s own declared borders under UNGA 181, from Palestine (and Syria’s Golan Heights and Sheeba Farms and north Ghajjar). And take the brutal occupation army units and Unit 8200 with them.
A Chapter Seven UN Security Council resolution authorizing force and a international contingent of armed peacekeepers to keep Israel out of Palestine’s air space, sea access and radio spectrum etc, with US impetus to form a Truth and Reconciliation Commission similar to the one in South Africa after their illegal Apartheid was ended, so the entire planet would be privy to information that most of the truth-seekers know, but a lot of the general world population with problems of their own is not aware of the details and just how real the facts are.
Britain made two competing promises, and now that there’s millions of Israelis there is no way they are going anywhere, it will be hard enough to get the 754,000 illegal squatters out of Palestine, going farther than that is such a maximalist position that I think it would obviously be unattainable.
Some 20-40,000 of those most egregiously harmed by Israel’s Ethnic Cleansing the Nakba would be able to return to their homes (as Jordan’s foreign minister Marwan somebody said shortly after the Saudi Initiative, now known as the Arab Peace Initiative), and the remaining refugees who have lost nearly seventy years of their rights through being ethnically cleansed from their nation would have to be fully compensated for their loss.
But in principle, I agree that the terrorist state of Israel must be dismantled, the illegal occupation ended, full truth and taking responsibility would have to ensure from newly constituted and reformed Israel to ever gain back the world’s trust and support, and it would all be finally over.
This is the only viable way to give Muslims in the region tools to work with to end the violent resistance. But for that to happen, Israel would have to receive the enormous smackdown of its young life, and finally face the music.
Of course, if Israel ‘mows the lawn’ again tomorrow or the next day in Gaza, that day may hasten. And one day I’ll learn to not be so verbose.
Ohhhhhhh, fuck off with that tedious, lame-brained, clichéd, thought-terminatng zio horsesh*t! ;)
Zionism needs to be shechted and disemboweled, and the Zionist apartheid state of israel needs to be liquidated – there cannot ever be peace in the Middle East before this happens. And for any sick psychotic israel-worshiping zio anti-Semites, deluded zio apologists, sadistic psychopaths and/or cannibals who read the preceding sentence:
“Zionism needs to be shechted and disemboweled” ? Kosher joooooooooooo burgers!!!
“israel needs to be liquidated” ? Kosher joooooooooooooo smooooothieeees!!!
So you can quit salivating, freaks.
[“Kosher joooooooooooo burgers!!!
“israel needs to be liquidated” ? Kosher joooooooooooooo smooooothieeees!!!’]
For real man? Are you serious? Is this the hate these trolls are talkin’ bout? How does this help obtain peace?
Of course I’m for real. Very serious. I hate those inane zio trolls you’re talkin’ bout. Only a large glass of freshly pressed (blood) orange joooooooooos with your cereal every morning will help obtain peace.
Aaaaaaaaand you’re a birdbrain. ;)
I may be a birdbrain….but I know when a hawk is in the camp. Your hate matches the trolls that come here and by every means I condemn your remarks.
Yep. Deffo an idiot…and I know a when a complaisant little sheep is in the camp. Your sheer stupidity matches the stupidity of the hateful comprehension challenged zio cretins who troll here and I condemn with a passion your utter idiocy, as I do theirs.
I just don’t agree with your radical speech which in every manner of the word represents the zionists who are foaming at the mouth in the same way. You present yourself as a zionist hater…but me believes you are one.
No…not here to please everyone that is a given…but peace breaks down everything.
Correction:
Ohhhhhhh, fuck off with that tedious, lame-brained, clichéd, thought-terminatng zio horsesh*t! ;)
Zionism needs to be shechted and disemboweled, and the Zionist apartheid state of israel needs to be liquidated – there cannot ever be peace in the Middle East before this happens. And for any sick psychotic israel-worshiping zio anti-Semites, deluded zio apologists, sadistic psychopaths and/or cannibals who read the preceding sentence:
“Zionism needs to be shechted and disemboweled” ≠ Kosher joooooooooooo burgers!!!
“israel needs to be liquidated” ≠ Kosher joooooooooooooo smooooothieeees!!!
So you can quit salivating, freaks.
Heh heh, now it makes more sense. As you no doubt know, sarcasm and wordplay often goes awry especially in the wonderful world of post-Zionism.
Now I gotta go read that Tom Segev thing about him asking for Israel to be raped in order to save it. If I remember right it was also he at the time, or around there, that was talking about post-Zionism. Zionism was asked and answered on May 14th, 1948. But the wingnuts freaked about that too. But Nationalist Revisionist Zionism must live, Shoah.
This entire thing could have been over decades ago if the wingnut colonial freaks in Israel had not been allowed to cross the border and start setting up illegal colonies which now represent the longest running crime against humanity in modern history.
Hell, I take a lot of flak for simply making that observation even though it is perfectly true. Most of these Hasbara trolls are never going to change their minds, they do not agree that moving three-quarters of a million illegal squatters over the border of another country is a crime against humanity of epic proportions.
Well, they might if it was Darfur, jeez I remember when BBSNews was the only news outlet covering HRW reports out of Darfur and the Hasbara trolls latched onto that in predictable fashion.
They loves them some logical fallacies. It seems to come with the territory of being a “conservative” wingnut.
Every time there’s an article about Israel, deranged anti-semites start screaming their crazed version of history from the mid 1900’s in their attempt to convince other people that the world’s one tiny little Jewish state should allow the jihadists that surround Israel to erase/destroy it.
It’s 2016. The tiny little Jewish state exists. Even if makes crazed jihad-worshippers on message boards angry.
I should know better than to ask, but name just one “crazed jihad-worshipper” in this thread. I looked over there under the bed. I looked over here under this Google Hangouts box, I looked everywhere. I couldn’t even find it under the Intercept logo.
I wanna see one. I always wanted to see a real live “crazed jihad-worshipper.”
Imagine what life must be like for mentally-ill anti-semites whose sole purpose for existing in this world is to sit on the Internet and spew 10-15 hours per day of rabid unhinged hate towards Jews, Israel, Israelis or “zionists.”
Jews are a very small minority group in this world.
Israel is a very tiny state, less than 1% of the Middle East.
Yet on each biased anti-Israel article there are a big stack of crazed loons whose sole reason to wake up each morning is to try to demonize Israel and promote as much hate as possible towards what they think “zionists” are.
I feel sorry for such people.
let me fix your typo …
Imagine what life must be like for mentally-ill Semites whose sole purpose for existing in this world is to sit on the Internet and spew 10-15 hours per day of rabid unhinged hate towards Arabs, Palestine, or Palestinians.
Great find. I hadn’t seen this before. Thanks.
LMAO…Nah, Zionism murdered your stupid little brain, you putrid, anti-Semitic zio window licker:
The aggressor is the one who attacks first. Palestinians attacked first.
This one is actually interesting…
Yeah, so anyway, PLEASE go watch this delish </a.but short (under 3 minbutes) video of Mehdi Hasan showing both that Netanyahu is a rancid liar and that Israelis damn near worship their own Jewish terrorists.
There were FOUR rocket attacks on Israel by Hamas last week alone. And Hezbollah has been amassing rockets to be used against Israel and burying them underground, as per Hamas’s example. Glenn Greenwald, you know nothing because you choose to only see what fits in comfortably within the scenario that is dictated by your own political bias. You are not a journalist. You are a “commentator”, at best and a propagandist, at worst. The world needs truth-tellers, not narcissists intent on running their own agendas, disguising themselves as cutting edge “Progressives.”
Hmmm, the Jewish Telegraphic Agency sees Greenwald quite differently. So, it would strongly appear, does The New York Times.
It’s funny how a worthless commentator like Greenwald is keeping you up at night and giving all you bastards ulcers. Actually it’s not funny. It’s hilarious. Everytime he makes a “comment” I get a bellyache, convulsing from watching you guys go apeshit.
And of course you’re correct. He’s worthless and irrelevant. You should stay away.
“There were FOUR rocket attacks on Israel by Hamas last week alone.”
Were there? Well, you pretty much have to expect that sort of thing when you’ve brutalized people, dispossessed them, and confined them in a monstrous, blighted open-air prison for generations.
Rocket attacks are, of course, regrettable, but listening to oppressors whining about their victims (feebly) fighting back is a bizarrely dissonant experience.
Strangely missing from ALL your comments are mentions of any of the Israeli regime attacks on both its own population (the Refugees) as well as the host population of Gaza and the West Bank. Like a Klansman who is outraged at the number of violent Blacks, the complete blindness to reality is rather disturbing.
A.S.F.
I have to disagree with your characterization of Greenwald. I would say a propagandist……at best
Gee, Craig, he’s gonna be crushed to learn that you think so.
I wonder if we should get in touch with David and have him make a drink, sit Glenn down and tell him gently.
Well, I anxiously await your attempt at debunking this imagined “propaganda”.
But I’ll keep my oxygen thanks.
OMG….you make me laugh
here….I’m pourin’ you one. Gotta batch of Mag – a – rita’s
Thanks! It’s only 11:00 am here so I’ll have to put it in the fridge, next to the already cooked corned beef brisket that I am going to put some grill marks on later.
And?
Zionists lie, Part 936,032. They do, in fact, venerate terrorists.
Just watch this <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIVuSc-pGHk".masterful smackdown from journalist, Mehdi Hasan. It’s less than 3 minutes long and utterly devastating.
Hasan shows a brief clip of Netanyahu solemnly intoning: “[Palestinians] consider murderers to be heroes, they name public squares after them, [pause for dramatic effect] we don’t”.
That could not be more of a lie.
Oops, formatting failure. The video is here.
Ahh…the typical projected guilt. They can’t do anything else. Way to go Mona…thanks.
As an anointed member of the sock puppet community – by no other than the you know who – I’d like to suggest that someone should create a “learn how extremist argue” blog from the stuff that the extremists post here.
Some of you have posted links and excerpts to some gems here!
Like most extremists, the extremist here can’t tell the difference between Jewish and Israel, can’t tell the difference between Jewish and extremist Zionist, can’t tell the difference between bigoted hatred rant and a civil discussion over the facts. I think the compendium would be a teaching moment!
And, like all extremists, they think that the more virulent, the more loud, the more obnoxious, the more violent they get, the stronger their argument gets. Hmmm!! See any similarities to other extremists?!
Mona once again get’s caught in a lie and making false accusations
Mona posted to me:
https://theintercept.com/2016/05/26/the-new-york-times-and-clinton-campaigns-abject-cowardice-on-israel/?comments=1#comment-235627
my post back
https://theintercept.com/2016/05/26/the-new-york-times-and-clinton-campaigns-abject-cowardice-on-israel/?comments=1#comment-235641
Zionist terrorist commit ethnic cleansing; Lydda
Again from a review of liberal Zionist Ari Shavit’s book, My Promised Land. Shavit is a terror apologist. That is, he insists Zionist terror was justified:
Shavit admits, in painful detail, that Zionist terror gave birth to Israel. His position is morally reprehensible, but he is far more honest than most Zionists because he admits — extensively sets forth, actually — Zionism’s crimes.
I don’t think anyone can deny that there were Jewish crimes in the war of independence. This was not only a war of independence for Jews, a war to create an independent state, but their backs were against the wall with no where to go – so they fought out of desperation with the (incompetent) Arab armies attacking after May 15th. Regardless, Jewish crimes were committed after the Palestinian and Arab militias started the war by rejecting the UN partition plan – a mistake they admitted 45 years later at Oslo where they recognized the Jewish state.
https://theintercept.com/2016/03/18/brazil-is-engulfed-by-ruling-class-corruption-and-a-dangerous-subversion-of-democracy/?comments=1#comment-212423
Michael Hess
“…….Too bad it [Israel] was founded by terrorism and on terrorism. See Anonymous Soldiers: The Struggle for Israel 1917 – 1947 by Bruce Hoffman [Knopf 2015]……”
Under your new and improved definition of “ethnic cleansing”, it is unlikely that Palestinians (or Arabs in general) ever committed any acts of terrorism After all, civilian Jews being expelled is now defined as “kicking out the invaders”. This must include the 800,000 Jews “kicked out” of the greater Middle East. Ethnic cleansing only applied to Jews expelling Palestinians – not visa versa. Ethnic cleansing is terrorism because it is applied to civilians….except if you are Jewish. So Palestinians actually committed no acts of terrorism since they always were just kicking out the invaders – even in the greater Middle East.
Based on Michael Hess’s (David’s) “new” definition of terrorism, only Jews have committed terrorism. Thanks Michael for proving exactly how credible your opinion is in this forum.
So, of course Craig, you don’t deny…just deflect.
Right, Craig implicitly concedes the fact of Jewish terrorism. I’ll be bookmarking this to haul it out sometime when he’r ranting about Hamas and the unconscionability of terrorism.
There is nothing denied or deflected – just reiterating what our resident “expert” on Zionism says about ethnic cleansing. Of course he also eats “Zionist Hasbara trolls for breakfast and evacuate[s] them by lunch”.
Perhaps you should inquire of the Israeli government why they have not pursued a UNGA 194 style resolution…
What is this “david” crap? I have not now nor ever been known to be “david” or any other name except for Michael Hess.
Right now you are just spouting pure nonsense. I have been on record for decades now and I think in this thread at least once that I do not care if you are a Palestinian or an Israeli, if you are suspected of being a war criminal then you should find yourself in the dock at the Hague.
I think I must have upset your already loose screw since you could not find anyway to pick apart anything I’ve actually written, so you just make things up in the hopes that people won’t notice.
Michael, the short scoop on Craig: He’s not a hasbara-ist per se; he’s a rightwing authoritarian. He’s been commenting in Greenwald’s space for some 4 years, starting when Greenwald wrote for the Guardian.
There is no Western civil liberty Craig publicly supports; only Muslim countries violate civil liberties in CraigWorld. He literally thinks torture is a good thing and he endorses it without quibble. He also doesn’t have any problem with the United States government electronically surveilling its citizens, and the citizens of the world, with or without warrants. Privacy is not a value for Craig.
Last I heard, he’s voting for Donald Trump.
I guarantee you he will vote for Hillaryous.
Trump is not a right wing authoritarian,but liberal in some ways,and conservative in others,a most refreshing quality in an american politician.
CS is a Zionist through and through,and in all his posting I have never seen any concern for America,other than as Israeli muscle.
And GG maybe Wicked?smart,but you aint.(Mona)
Oh and Michael. It’s up to you of course, but I suggest you no longer engage Gil on this obsession he has with you vis-a-vis Oren. I’ve repeatedly challenged him to post a link to the relevant thread from some other site so all interested readers may assess for themselves his characterization of your efforts. (He must have the link if he can directly quote parts of that off-site debate.)
In my view, he shouldn’t be allowed to divert the discussion here, certainly not unless he provides the relevant link.
I answered him with cold hard facts and primary sources, twice.
I’m done with him.
I provided the like you blithering idiot. go to the bottom of the post
https://theintercept.com/2016/05/26/the-new-york-times-and-clinton-campaigns-abject-cowardice-on-israel/?comments=1#comment-235479
I provided the link you blithering idiot. Go to the bottom of this post.
https://theintercept.com/2016/05/26/the-new-york-times-and-clinton-campaigns-abject-cowardice-on-israel/?comments=1#comment-235479
As for Hess of course he won’t respond anymore. He has been shown up for the charlatan he is. I will be on the Forward’s message board. If either of you clowns is brave enough to show up there. Wait on second thought don’t, the last thing they need is pollution from this confederacy of dunces.
I’ve been debunking Hasbara trolls like you on the Forward for years. Indeed I have my own little stalkers there who follow me around. I just posted over the the long debunking of your crap about Oren with primary links and page numbers including the “Catalyst” chapter you were quoting from, pages 59, 75 and 76.
You had better try harder. You cannot change the history of Israel attack starting the 1967 war. The only point where there might be some ambiguity is the number of Egyptian soldiers that Israel massacred, thought to be one of the reasons that Israel tried to sink the USS Liberty in the middle of the war, and they were also afraid that their impending widening of the war in attack Syria and stealing the Golan Heights.
— Mass grave may strain Israeli-Egyptian relations
The vile person using the account “Jack Green” spews a revolting “justification” of Zionist terrorism:
First, see my quote of David Ben-Gurion just below. Second, as a reviewer of Ari Shavit’s My Promnised Land observes, driving Arab opposition to Zionist immigration in Mandate Palestine was: “the promotion of ‘Hebrew labour’, ‘Hebrew land’, ‘Hebrew produce’ and the efforts to close the Jewish economy to Arab workers…” Colonial, European Jews were overwhelming the indigenous population and shutting them out of much participation in the economy.
Zionists knew, from the outset that Zionism entailed stealing land from the indigenous Arabs:
So then, Zionist terrorism was in the cards from the beginning. Not being idiots, Zionists knew the Arab population was not likely to passively accept what Zionists had in mind to do to them. It’s just that many Zionists justify terrorism when it’s their tribe that includes terrorists.
” looted from them with our gold!” is not theft.
Where does it say that Jews should use terrorism against Arabs?
“Will those who are dispossessed remain silent and accept what is being done to them?”
Zionist knew that Arabs would not passively accept their dispossession. Yet they went ahead anyway. What do you suppose Zionists planned to do in the face of anticipated and just opposition? Jabotinsky gave the answer explicitly in the 1920s: Force.
And one of Jabotinsky’s premier disciples, Menachem Begin, was one of the most depraved terrorists of them all.
There are lots of towns & neighborhoods in the US that used to be all white but have now become black. Would it have been just for the white people to kill the black people moving in? Many of the black people are immigrants from the Caribbean & Africa.
Are you twelve years old?
No where in the quote does he advocate terrorism.
I was hoping that you would answer my question.
If someone offers you money for your land & you take their money, you are NOT dispossessed.
Learn the difference between property rights and sovereign rights. I already called one of you trolls on this in this thread somewhere else. It is the Mark of the Hasbarian(tm). (Hey, that could be the title of the guide on how to spot a trolling Hasbara argument.)
Deflection. I remember when a certain nation in Southeast Asia was buying up New York City property years ago and some “patriots” were upset but it was not about selling American sovereignty.
Considering that when the other shoe drops and a critical mass of Americans learn these shady arguments and ploys used by nefarious Hasbarians, like this claim of, “hey, why is anybody upset that some people bought some property and the other people had to move?”
When what it really means to me is that I think you know full well you are lying by omission. You are leaving out the critical fact not only were some property’s bought, but those indigenous Palestinians then had their sovereign rights taken away from them, promised to them by the British in 1915-16, before Balfour, and included in the preamble of the Palestine Mandate is both Balfour and Article 22 of the LoN which made Palestine a Class-A mandate state in paragraphs 1 and 4 in the time after the Great War.
Today, there are illegal colonists outside of Israel’s legitimate borders, the ones they declared. There’s that ongoing crime against humanity of simply using military force, state coercion through groups like Unit 8200 using sexuality as a bludgeon and or blackmail tool, and walls to effectively “annex” the land, found to be illegal by the ICJ in 2004, sending hundreds of thousands of Israeli citizens illegally into another country, Palestine, but without ever really going that far, Just Because They Can.
However, this effort to discredit BDS is backfiring in a huge way and I suspect it will have as much a galvanizing effect on public opinion as Cast Lead and Justice Goldstone that you folks like to think is discredited; but I’ll lay you a dime to a dollar that nearly every Jew on this planet has read the report and has taken away a great sense of sadness at what has happened to the miracle.
I mean the sheer callousness of your seemingly simple comment betrays that you have an agenda. No one can pretend to know situationally broad documentation about this conflict without being well aware that the evidence originally points to ethnic cleansing at Israel’s birth, and the denial and dispossession of property rights going on right now in Palestine under Israel’s illegal occupation. See UNGA 194.
Under the Absentees’ Property Law Israeli Jews took “legal” possession of “abandoned” properties after the 1948 war. Now they are doing it in East Jerusalem, and as everyone knows who spends longer than about five minutes assessing some basic facts about this conflict, all those moves Israel makes in East Jerusalem are illegal under international law, see UNSCR 478 and the six others and work your way around.
Of course, I should qualify all that and admit that Israel’s High Court when it made the decision to increase this power to seize Palestinian property in another state, Palestine, requires the Attorney General of Israel to sign off on any such move.
Interestingly, Israel’s shocking Justice Minister Ayelet “Palestinian children are snakes” Shaked set up a committee in July of last year set to ascertain how they could just take Palestinian property, the committee was set up at the time with Israel’s cabinet secretary Avichai Mandelblit.
Mandelblit is now the Attorney General for Israel.
So, I know this won’t clear this up for you jack, because I think you are one of the more insidious Hasbara trolls from your behavior, and you remind me of the well-trained kind. But it was fun for me to point out some deficiencies in using bumper-sticker sloganeering when justifying a crime against humanity.
Uh-huh. the “purchases” were not undertaken with equals. The wealthy Jews targeted corrupt absentee landlords, took over the land, and promptly shut the Arab tenants and workers out. It nearly all became : “Jew only.”
Hence, Yitzhak Epstein’s fears of Arab reaction to their “dispossession.”
Arabs refused to hire Jews.
Arabs who were “dispossessed” didn’t lose their land because they had no land to begin with.
A lot of the land that Jews bought was land that was not being used so no there were no Arabs to lose their jobs.
Many Jews did hire Arabs.
While there were some Arabs who lost their jobs because of Jewish land purchase, the Jewish money flowing into the area created new jobs.
Also, because Jews drained the swamps eliminating mosquitos, Arab health & life expectancy increased.
When there are mergers & acquisition, when businesses fail, when new administrations take over, people lose their jobs. Is that justification for murder?
“…….It’s just that many Zionists justify terrorism when it’s their tribe that includes terrorists……”
What does that have to do with terrorism? He seems to be saying there will eventually be resistance to the peaceful (gold) immigration by Jews. Of course, I don’t know what else he might have said.
https://theintercept.com/2016/03/18/brazil-is-engulfed-by-ruling-class-corruption-and-a-dangerous-subversion-of-democracy/?comments=1#comment-212423
David Ben-Gurion telling the truth among Zionists which they denied to the world, 1938
Zionists lie. They always have. What they admit among their fellow Zionists is often not admitted to the world.
The troll account of a vile person wrote this:
There’s nothing wrong with terrorism, not when it’s appropriate. Zionists all accept this.
Terrorism is always wrong no matter who does it.
Then Israel was founded on wrong. Because Zionist terrorism was integral to the founding of that nation-state.
While I have you Jack, I thank you for this thread. I’ve bookmarked it as an example of how Zionists lie, and when called out, continue to brazenly lie. Stick around, and you’ll be seeing me link to it.
I think that Israel could have been founded without terrorism & I condemn all terrorists.
Too bad it was founded by terrorism and on terrorism. See Anonymous Soldiers: The Struggle for Israel 1917 – 1947 by Bruce Hoffman [Knopf 2015].
No Palestinian would have been killed if Palestinians had not been murdering innocent Jews.
Wow, you are quite delusional aren’t you? I’m getting bored with this current crop of lying Hasbara trolls. Don’t you ever get tired of being a discredited liar?
I want to know the truth.
If I’m misinformed about something,
I want to know it.
Michael Hess just in case you missed it below. Let’s see you answer the question. How have you of refuted my claim or proved your claim about what Oren said without providing any quote from Oren’s book other than your original one that I put context to?
Why don’t you admot you didn’t even read his book.
GilG ? Michael Hess
May 28 2016, 5:39 p.m.
Michael, It was you that was using his book as a source. Please spell out where he admits what you claim. You gave one quote without providing any context of when that was. I on the other hand posted what Mr. Oren says came after that quote. Your posts above don’t quote from Oren’s book or Oren so how could they possibly refute what I have posted to debunk your claim or support your claim about what Oren said ???? Face it you lost. Go eat crow.
Hello Gil. I posted something for you.
And what are you hiding Gil? You persistently refuse to link to this mere political debate about which you make quite invidious claims about Mr. Hess’s performance. So, where is the link?
And once again Mona gets caught in a lie. too funny.
https://theintercept.com/2016/05/26/the-new-york-times-and-clinton-campaigns-abject-cowardice-on-israel/?comments=1#comment-235479
Never happened. But I can certainly understand your chagrin about saying Dershowitz performed so superbly. He beclowned himself, as I demonstrated.
What never happened? You accused me of not providing a link to the debate on another thread that I had with Mr. Hess. The link above takes you to the post where I provided that link, it is at the bottom of that post. It proves that yet again you have been caught making a false accusation.
Oh, Gil. Zionists often display this level of insecurity (tho not only them), but I figured you were too savvy:
It doesn’t take Freud to realize that people who run around pounding the table and announcing their victory, and how their opponent “lost” and should “eat crow,” are actually quite uncertain of their own arguments and abilities. Me, I let my arguments stand on their own merits.
I know my abilities and my command of facts in this area, and have no psychological need to shriek about how the other guy was “crushed” and on like that as so many do. It’s quite revealing that you resort to such an embarrassing ploy.
What ploy have I resorted to ???
Your new friend Mr. Hess made the claimed he “eats Zionists for lunch” , but you as per usual show your absolute inability not to have different sets of rules for different people.
Mona you are the most self absorbed person I have ever run across on this or any other board. You try and make every thread about you. You even cite a wiki thing you added to as a reference and brag about your Huuuugge contribution. Trump has nothing on you my dear. When you think you have someone crushed not only do you yell about it but you go to the top of the board and post it in bold. Who do you think you are fooling? No need to “shriek”, indeed. too funny.
Oh and in case you missed it above I caught you in a lie again.
Yeah, no. You allude to my reply to photosymbiosis who claimed I never wrote anything sympathetic to Jews. He couldn’t be reading me completely here if he could say that, but I linked him to that article, but had to make clear that it is not entirelky mine; just the preponderant portion.
You have never caught me in any lies. I do not lie.
You just claimed I never provided a link to my debate on another site with Mr. Hess. I just provided with a link to the post on this thread where I did. That was a lie. I could go on but lets get this one straight first.
Yes you did. I read the initial stuff about my supposed lies & etc. and never made it to the end.
That thread is a big nothing. But, yes, you finally did supply the link.
Uh huh.
See: https://theintercept.com/2016/05/26/the-new-york-times-and-clinton-campaigns-abject-cowardice-on-israel/?comments=1#comment-235541
And then byte me.
your link goes no where.
Your link goes no where, byte yourself.
Bullshit. It’s in the link, I just went to it, it was all nicely highlighted in blue.
I saved it in a text file as well because I am sick and tired of your lying bullshit:
You have rebutted nothing. Michael Oren is a partisan of the most extremist kind, he renounced his American citizenship to join the government of Israel and not only does he parrot the long discredited Abba Eben line about the 1967 war, there is ample evidence that Israel was motivated to expand the territory that they wished they had gotten in 1948.
On May 27th, 1967 the United Arab Republic (the short joining of Syria and Egypt) referred a letter to the Security Council entitled “Israel aggressive policy, its repeated aggression threatening peace and security in the Middle East and endangering international peace and security” in s/pv.1347. The letter itself is S/7907:
“…4. The repeated Israeli armed aggression against Jordan and its recent aggression on the village of El Samouh.
5. The Israeli attempts to change the international status of Jerusalem in violation of the resolutions of the United Nations.
6. The Israeli aggression against the water projects in Syria utilizing Israeli Air Force.
7. The repeated Israeli aggression on the demilitarized zones specified in the Syrian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement.
8. The continued Israeli threat and the recent Israeli mobilization of its forces during the current month of May in preparation for the invasion of Syria as confirmed in the report of the Secretary-General to the Security Council on 19 May 1967, document 5/7896.”
The sentence that “gil” is all het up about in Oren’s book appears on page 59 in the chapter titled “Catalysts”, in Oren’s own words, and he was writing that the Soviets were whispering the notion that Israel was poised for an attack on Syria (they were right, see Moshe Dayan).
“Nor did the Israelis pause to consider whether these same Soviet warnings were reaching Egypt and, if so, whether Nasser would act on them. By all reports Israel received from the Americans, and according to its own intelligence, Nasser had no interest in bloodshed and had not even closed the door to some future peace settlement.”
Oren continues, after the United Nations Emergency Force had pulled out at Egypt’s behest, “what will Nasser do next?”
He goes on to write that a couple of Egyptian MIG’s had come out of the sky of Jordan doing an overfly of Dimona [p. 75], where Israel’s most infamous nuclear capability stems from:
“The incident touched on one of Israel’s darkest concerns, that its pursuit of nuclear power would impell Egypt to launch a conventional attack while it still had the chance. Back in 1964, Nasser had warned the Americans that Israel’s development of nuclear capabilities “would be a cause for war, no matter how suicidal.”
The U.S. assured Nasser that Israel was not developing strategic weapons, and he never renewed his threat, but the memory of it stuck with the Israelis. They never forgot the reactor’s proximity to the border, its vulnerability to aerial bombardment. Thus, though Nasser never once cited Dimona as a motive for his decisions in May, Israeli commanders assumed it was and concluded they had to strike first. Israel’s fear for the reactor–rather than Egypt’s of it–was the greater catalyst for war.” [p. 76 Emphasis in the original.]
Also, Oren admitted it again to Terry Gross on NPR:
“GROSS: One of the contested issues about the 1967 War is: Was Israel’s strike against the Egyptian army an act of aggression or an act of self-defense? With the documents that you’ve uncovered, how would you answer that question?
Mr. Oren: I think the ’67 War was largely a case of misperceptions and miscalculations. We know now from Egyptian records that Nasser didn’t exactly want to go to war, even in spite of his often bellicose rhetoric. What he wanted to win was a bloodless political victory.”
You go try and convince someone else. I will not be swayed by the Hasbara tactics, and I won’t be swayed by your appeal to authority argument, especially since there is so much controversy about Michael Oren, in particular his repeated denials about the fact that Israel tried to sink the USS Liberty, they did, they very nearly managed it. And knowing through experience that you can see even the first sized American flag for fifteen miles at sea and much farther in the air, and then they put up the holiday colors, I myself have never believed the lies about the Liberty and neither does a vast number of others including John Conyers when he introduced the findings of the [Admiral Thomas H.] Moorer Commission.
In fact, upon reading all this once again, I am compelled to go vomit that these lies have been allowed to continue for so long. Enclosed is the affidavit from Captain Ward Boston, senior counsel of the US Navy Court of Enquiry:
“For more than 30 years, I have remained silent on the topic of the USS Liberty. I am a military man and when orders come in from the Secretary of Defense and President of the United States, I follow them.
However, recent attempts to rewrite history compel me to share the truth.
In June of 1967, while serving as a Captain in the Judge Advocates General Department of the Navy, I was assigned as senior legal counsel for the Navy’s Court of Inquiry into the brutal attack on the USS Liberty, which had occurred on June 8th. The late Admiral Isaac C. Kidd, president of the Court, and I were given only one week to gather evidence for the Navy’s official investigation into the attack. Admiral John S. McCain, Jr., then Commander-in-chief, Naval Forces Europe (CINCUSNAVEUR), at his headquarters in London, had charged Admiral Kidd (in a letter dated June 10, 1967) to “inquire into all the pertinent facts and circumstances leading to and connected with the armed attack: damage resulting therefrom; and deaths of and injuries to Naval personnel.” Despite the short amount of time we were given, we gathered a vast amount of evidence, including hours of heartbreaking testimony from the young survivors.
The evidence was clear. Both Admiral Kidd and I believed with certainty that this attack, which killed 34 American sailors and injured 172 others, was a deliberate effort to sink an American ship and murder its entire crew. I am certain that the Israeli pilots that undertook the attack, as well as their superiors who had ordered the attack, were aware that the ship was American.
I saw the flag, which had visibly identified the ship as American, riddled with bullet holes, and heard testimony that made it clear that the Israelis intended there be no survivors. Not only did the Israelis attack the ship with napalm, gunfire, and missiles, Israeli torpedo boats machine-gunned three lifeboats that had been launched in an attempt by the crew to save the most seriously wounded–a war crime.
I am outraged at the efforts of the apologists for Israel in this country to claim that this attack was a case of “mistaken identity.” In particular, the recent publication of Jay Cristol’s book, The Liberty Incident, twists the facts and misrepresents the views of those of us who investigated the attack. It is Cristol’s insidious attempt to whitewash the facts that has pushed me to speak out.
I know from personal conversations I had with Admiral Kidd that President Lyndon Johnson and Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara ordered him to conclude that the attack was a case of “mistaken identity” despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Contrary to the misinformation presented by Cristol and others, it is important for the American people to know that it is clear that Israel is responsible for deliberately attacking an American ship and murdering American sailors, whose bereaved shipmates have lived with this egregious conclusion for many years.”
Yes, one must be dressed in proper uniforms to wage war. I agree that it does more harm than good. When Western nations declare an attack on military pers or property “terrorism”, they degrade the meaning.
By “terrorism” I mean targeting innocent people.
zionistas are a terrorist organisation who break into peoples’ homes in the middle of the night, kill the residents and steal their land and homes and the world knows it.
the zions also commit terrorist acts like this but most would call it genocide.
zions want the world to pay the price for their crimes against humanity
WONT HAPPEN.
Genocide?
If Israel were trying to kill all Palestinians, the IDF would not have warned Palestinians before destroying their homes.
It’s Palestinians who are attempting to exterminate the Jews.
Hamas teaches children to kill all Jews.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2014/05/hamas-tv-teaches-children-to-kill-all-jews/
israeli kids taught to kill
zions, graveyard zombies
Yeah, after all they don’t have any reason to hate the invader who has kept Gaza worse than the Warsaw Ghetto for the last decade. I’ll bet you call those who fought in the Warsaw uprising terrorists too. You realize why Venezuela asked if Israel had in mind a “final solution” right?
All this stuff is not happening in a vacuum. It is a result of Israel illegally occupying another country, Palestine, the very country it was carved out of, and doing so for 72% of its life as a state.
Gaza was occupied because Palestinians in Gaza attacked Israelis.
Palestinians were the aggressors.
Warsaw Ghetto 1940 population 400,000, 1945 population 174,000
Gaza 2012 population 1,644,293, 2015 population 1,819,982
See the difference?
Oh yes, I see the “difference”. I love logical fallacies. You are saying that because Warsaw was a stopping point for many who perished in the Shoah at the hands of the Germans, well gosh then it obviously logically follows that Israel is merely holding about two million Gazans in abject subjugation without quite going to the next step of making the trains run on time, so that makes it all “different”…
It’s been ten years dude that Israel has held Gaza under this siege that from a humanitarian law standpoint is quite illegal, and the recent Pew survey that shows half of all Israelis are cool with ethnic cleansing of indigenous Palestinians; some of us find that troubling.
For you it is a fun logical fallacy in trying to get a one-up not on me, but the facts of the matter.
In addition, I suggest that you learn a little bit more about the definition of genocide before making pronouncements about it. It is commonly held by Hasbara trolls that this means extermination. Nope.
“…Article II
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
Article III
The following acts shall be punishable:
(a) Genocide;
(b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;
(c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;
(d) Attempt to commit genocide;
(e) Complicity in genocide.
Article IV
Persons committing genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in article III shall be punished, whether they are constitutionally responsible rulers, public officials or private individuals…”
— Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide 1948 in force 1951
Not for Zionists. See, the Irgun, Stern, Lehi, Palmach and Haganah with such “leaders” as the terrorists Menachem Begin (Irgun) and Yitzhak Shamir (Lehi).
There would have been no Irgun, Stern, Lehi, Palmach or Haganah if Palestinians had not been murdering innocent Jews.
“…….As I’ve said, he operates in an alternate world where words and facts mean what he wants them to, be damned with how the real world understands these things…..”
Unlike Michael Hess who calls removing people from their homes “kicking the invaders out”. That is a new spin on “ethnic cleansing”, wouldn’t you say? Anti-Zionists will jump in bed with any bigot.
To Mona
Please see my post immediately below.
How many Palestinians have you killed, craig?
How many Palestinians do you want to kill, craig?
You asked that question yesterday. I’m still counting them up…….
your refusal to provide precise numbers which you should know is just another sign of your deceptiveness and willingness to lie.
you dont need to lie or deceive. be proud. brag some. show some courage.
GilG defends a liar and shill and makes a hilarious claim while doing so
Now Gil, really. The video and a transcript of Dershowitz behaving like slimy weasel who convinced no one intelligent — certainly not other lawyers who know exactly the misdirection and evasion techniques he was deploying — that transcript and video is available.
Dershowitz tried very hard to use interruption and over-talking to shut down Finkelstein, but Amy Goodman repeatedly asked him not to interrupt. Dershowtiz continued on, trying to misdirect in order to evade the evidence of a particular, significant numerical error in his book. He began a lengthy, fallacious pile of crap about why he couldn’t have made that error because it wouldn’t serve his interests. Goodman finally intruded to force him to address the point:
And what has Dershowitz to say about all that?
A smaller phase! Except that’s not what Benny Morris wrote.
Then the discussion turns to two of Dershowitz’ other claims: 1. “Israel is the only country in the Middle East to have abolished any kind of torture in fact as well as in law, ” and 2. “there is no evidence that Israeli soldiers deliberately killed even a single civilian in Jenin.”
Finkelstein cites human rights NGOs Amnesty International, B’Tselem and Human Rights Watch. All of these find that Israel tortures. But they’re all wrong, says Dershowtiz.
Why? Because, among other things, he declares:
Oh gee, that’s a knock-out punch right there. No self-styled democracy would ever willfully kill a civilian. They’re too GOOD! And, “HOLINESS OF ARMS!!” That’s why the NGOs are wrong.
Then there was this:
See? In DershWorld, he cannot be falsified. All the NGOs whose business it is to determine where torture occurs, all of them who investigate murder of civilians, they’re all wrong when it comes to Israel. They have to be, because Israel is so Good. It is GOOD, DOUBLE PLUS GOOD. Therefore, the NGOs are wrong.
Yes, Gil, Dershowtiz truly mopped the floor with Norman Finkelstein. He did it by insisting Israel is Good, with a side-helping of “the holiness of arms” in Israel.
It is hilarious, Gil.
The Intercept seems to intentionally try to appeal to people who accept Arab states and accept Muslim states and accept Arab nationalism and accept Muslim nationalism yet want the world’s one tiny Jewish state erased/destroyed and hatefully reject Jewish nationalism.
There’s a word for this.
This is an account of this horrid person. Please scroll right on past it.
He made a legitimate point Mona and not only have you proved to be an unreliable reporter you are notorious for your mis-characterization of posts and your false charges. You have not in any way shape or form back up your charges and in spite of your own rule requiring links as proof you make excuses for not providing one in this case, much like you blame your drug use for your other lies. (kinda smarts when you get your own nonsense thrown back in your face doesn’t mona).
zions, graveyard zombies from 1600’s conquering army of sadists and now risen from the dead.
How many Palestinians do you want to kill, steve?
Yeah, the word is Hasbara.
‘Tell ya what. You get those three-quarters of a million illegal squatters out of Palestine, take the brutal and demoralized (Breaking the Silence) occupation army with you, and then we can talk.
Israel was created in the already existing, under undeniable international law, Class-A mandate state of Palestine. Not the other way around.
“Anti-zionists” don’t want Israel to merely hand land that Israel won from Jordan and Egypt in 1967 over to Palestinians and for Palestinians to then form a peaceful state next to Israel.
“Anti-zionists” want the world’s only Jewish state erase/destroyed. “Anti-zionists” don’t want any of the 20 Arab states erased or any of the 50 Muslim states erased. They just want the one tiny little Jewish state erased. And turned into another Muslim state, which would put the lives of millions of Jews at risk.
Because 99.999% of “anti-zionists” are just Jew-hating loons who just want Israel dead. None of them should pretend to be “peace” activists.”
Just be honest. You want Israel dead/erased/gone. You’re rooting for the jihadists.
But, Israel will keep defending itself.
Walk it off.
correction
But, Israel will keep defending itself.But, Isreal will keep precipitating actions to kill more Palestinians to continue steal their land,
zion porn
The comment section of every article about Israel is flooded by nazi-like loons whose sole purpose for commenting isn’t to discuss the main topic of the article, but to obsessively demonize Israel’s very existence.
Which sort of proves the Israeli right correct, actually.
did you say nazi or ashkenazi?
kinda like this?
Amazing how almost every article about Israel immediately turns into a deranged hatefest due to people whose entire life seems to revolve around trying to convince other people to hate the world’s only Jewish state for even existing.
Which is why if an Israeli sneezes too loudly, and there’s a topic about it, the entire comment section isn’t about that one sneeze, or the one person who did it, but instead the comment section is nothing but DEMONIZATION of all Israelis and DEMONIZATION of Israel’s very existence.
Meanwhile, tiny Israel is less than 1% of the Middle East, yet has the most DIVERSE democratic population that entire region. Israel has 1.5 million Arab citizens, while the Arab states have literally ERASED their Jewish populations.
There are a lot of sick anti-semites in this world who wake up each day and then obsessively work for 18 hours a day specifically trying to promote hate of Israel’s very existence. Nobody does this to the 20 Arab states or the 50 Muslim countries.
Because, anti-semites seem to have a lot of free time in their lives.
zions, graveyard zombies
what zions do in their free time
What about the “cowardice” of shilling for Palestinians and their terrorist-supporting ways and refusing to respect Jewish human rights and refusing to respect Israel’s basic right of self-defense?
Tiny Israel, less than 1% of the Middle East, is surrounded by irrational jihadist loons who openly want Israel destroyed and have ERASED their Jewish populations. And now they and their “pro-Palestinian” activists obsessively rant each day about how badly they want to erase Israel as a Jewish state. Israel protects itself. And then hypocritical extreme-left anti-semites demonize every single thing Israel does to defend itself.
zions, graveyard zombies
this is what zions want the world to be ok with.
murdered by zions
how many Palestinians do you want to kill, steve?
First of all, let me be clear, I’m an American and a Jew.
For those of you thoroughly infected with the Judiasm-destroying poison of Zionism — that’s you, Steve — here is the antidote to your Kool-aid dreams. Drink deeply and wake up to reality.
We often hear the phrase “Israel’s right to exist” and along with it, “Israel’s right to self-defense.” Hear them endlessly, by propagandists who repeat them endlessly. But endless repetition does not make a thing true. The phantom “legitimacy” of endless repetition is just the befuddlement that remains after well executed propaganda has corrupted the truth.
Yet the truth exists.
And here it is: a fact-based, truth-based, ethics-based summary.
In 1917, the British Imperial elite and the World Zionist Organization joined forces to take Palestine from the people — 95% Arab — who had lived there for 70 generations, and give it to the Jews/Zionists. Taking what doesn’t belong to you has a name: it’s called stealing.
This “plan” was a crime of conspiracy then, in its embryonic stage, as the theft and murder in it’s execution is a crime today. A crime is still a crime, despite 90 years of control of the media. A crime is still a crime despite 90 years of impunity from prosecution, or 90 years of protection through propaganda. Just as no amount of time can transform a lie into the truth, so too, no amount of time can convert a crime into a legal act.
The Zionist entity called Israel is nothing less than a geopolitical crime-in-progress. This is the truth that the Jews will never be able to “disappear”, and that the digital age and internet have finally set free.
So when next you hear about Israel’s supposed “right to exist”, consider: what crime has a “right to exist”?, what criminal enterprise has a “right to exist”? Add to that: what criminal has a “right to self-defense”? What criminal has the right to commit violence in the furtherance of a crime? What criminal has the right to fight back against the lawful authority that arrives to halt the crime and arrest the criminals?
Israel, the Zionists, their enablers, and their supporters are criminals: thieves and murderers on a global scale. In their criminality they have no “right to exist”, and in their criminality they have no “right to self-defense”.
Yet, they do have rights. And I support those rights. They have the right to surrender to a competent authority. They have the right to a fair trial. If found guilty, they have the right to a proportionate penalty. And finally, once the offenders have “done their time”, they have the right to rejoin society and resume a peaceful cooperative existence.
A time is approaching when the Zionist criminals will not be allowed to continue their crimes. A billion — with a “b” — and a half Muslims outraged at the Zionist-directed war, against Palestinians in particular, and all of Islam generally, and a world ever more unsympathetic with disproportionate Israeli brutality will not allow it. The Israeli post-holocaust get-out-of-jail-free card, dog-eared and threadbare from overuse, has expired.
As an American and a Jew I see the danger for Jews the world over. Jews support their fellow Jews. This ancient and enduring tribal loyalty now leads the Jews into danger. They fail to see the likely consequences that arise from being complicit in Israeli crimes. A new holocaust is being built, the Jews are building it themselves, and the Zionist criminal project Israel is the foundation stone of that looming catastrophe.
When the three hundred million non-Jewish Americans figure out that their country, its Congress, it’s executive, has been taken over by “the Jews” (the Zionists actually, but no one will bother with that distinction), as in ancient Egypt, and ancient Israel in the time of the Romans, and Spain and Portugal of early Roman Catholicism, or most recently during the era of the Nazis, resentment will rise, and time will have run out.
Now is the time for Jews, American Jews in particular to rise above tribal exceptionalism and criminal apologism and ***fix the problem*** before the problem “fixes” the Jews,…yet again.
Good luck.
********************************
Here are the crucial sources for the truth underlying the situation the world finds itself in today vis a vis Israel.
The last three are long, scholarly, and frankly, a bit dry. However, the first, for obvious reasons, is quite entertaining.
“Concerning the Jews” by Mark Twain
link to fordham.edu
The Hidden History of Zionism
link to marxists.org
Behind the Balfour Declaration
link to ihr.org
Benjamin Freedman
link to sweetliberty.org
Excellent stuff Jeff. I have pursued this line of thought and reality for quite sometime as I believe that these Hasbara trolls with their lies, in conjunction with the crimes of the state of Israel endanger the Jews in my family and they are an affront to ethical Judaism and an insult to those who were killed in the Shoah.
The Internet and cell phones changed the entire Hasbara enterprise forever, and American Jews have to get shut of this, Sheldon Adelson notwithstanding. Indeed that fact has greatly upset Elliott Abrams who claims that American Jews are not Jewish enough if they do not support Israeli Apartheid.
I’ve got news for him, it’s quite the contrary. American Jews most especially among the youngest American Jews have had it with their parents supporting these crimes even though we all know it is wrong.
Michael Hwess (David)
You have avoided answering the question posed in three straight posts (I don’t give one flying fuck about Jobatinsky, OK?). The reason is simple: you are wrong. Anti-Zionists are so married to a narrative that they lie and spin even the most obvious questions to fit that narrative. Yes, Jews were expelled, ethnically cleansed and run out of town(s) from the Arab-controlled sections of Palestine. Jews had a continuous presence in Jerusalem for centuries. You cannot spin that any other way. Because you cannot even admit to such an obvious conclusion, it’s clear you just spin everything to meet the story you want to tell. Additionally the Hasbara spinners at Wikipedia were right about the Jews being expelled. You are a liar and a fraud, Michael – or should I call you David.
You write
“‘Jews’ were never “ethnically cleansed” by Jordan. Invaders were kicked out.”
And,
“……My statement stands. Palestine was stolen through terrorism and ethnic cleansing, so many Israeli leaders have admitted this over the years that I am surprised that you would bother to try and deny it……”
According to the Hasbara-run Wikipedia, Jews have had a presence in the Jewish quarter of Jerusalem for centuries – long before immigration began from Europe:
“……..Jerusalem’s population size and composition has shifted many times over its 5,000 year history. Since medieval times, the Old City of Jerusalem has been divided into Jewish, Muslim, Christian, and Armenian quarters.……Most population data pre-1905 is based on estimates, often from foreign travellers or organisations, since previous census data usually covered wider areas such as the Jerusalem District.[1] These estimates suggest that since the end of the Crusades, Muslims formed the largest group in Jerusalem until the mid-19th century. Between 1838 and 1876, a number of estimates exist which conflict as to whether Jews or Muslims were the largest group during this period, and between 1882 and 1922 estimates conflict as to exactly when Jews became a majority of the population…….”
According to Bennie Morris (1948; page 409):
“………During the “civil war” when the opportunity arose, Palestinian militiamen who fought alongside of the Arab Legion, consistently expelled Jewish inhabitants and razed conquered sites, as happened in the Etzion block and the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem’s Old City. Subsequently, the Arab Armies behaved in a similar fashion. All the Jewish settlements conquered by the invading Jordanian , Syrian, and Egyptian armies – about a dozen in all……..were razed after their inhabitants had fled or been incarcerated or expelled……..”
Fairly clear-cut even for someone that eats “Zionist Hasbara trolls for breakfast and evacuate[s] them by lunch”. my insert in brackets
Thanks.
zion porn
How many children have your friends murdered?
Learn the difference between property rights and sovereignty troll.
Oh! I also eat Zionist Hasbara trolls for lunch as well.
Hmmm, I missed that “david” nonsense… My name is Michael Hess, I am the editor of BBSNews and an American Indian with a Jewish background living in New Mexico.
I have always used one name, the name I just used above, because that is my name. I do not play the troll games like you Hasbara trolls who use multiple accounts and dynamic IP addresses to stay one step ahead of being banned because all of you are so completely obnoxious in your hate and ignorance.
Michael Hess (David)
“……..“Jews” were never “ethnically cleansed” by Jordan. Invaders were kicked out……..”
That statement just exposes the level of your hatred for “Jews” (if I may use this interchangeably with “Zionist” in your case). It certainly is a false statement while you – again – avoided answering the “hasbara” Wiki article. I will state it again for your convenience:
“……Upon its capture, the Jordanians immediately expelled all the Jewish residents of the Jewish Quarter. 58 synagogues were destroyed.[18][19] The ancient Jewish cemetery on Mount of Olives was desecrated, and the tombstones there were used for construction and paving roads.[20] Jordan also destroyed the Jewish villages of Atarot and Neve Yaakov just north of Jerusalem (their sites became Jerusalem neighborhoods after 1967)……”
Simply a bunch of Hasbara lies Michael? After all, you did state that you cannot trust Wikipedia “because it has long been compromised by Zionist Hasbara operatives”. If you can’t even refute this particular interpretation of history by the hasbara operatives at Wikipedia, then you are just promoting more Jewish conspiracy theories, right?
How do you define ethnic cleansing if forcibly uprooting people (or even Jews) from their homes is not ethnic cleansing?
“‘Jews’ were never “ethnically cleansed” by Jordan. Invaders were kicked out.”
My statement stands. Palestine was stolen through terrorism and ethnic cleansing, so many Israeli leaders have admitted this over the years that I am surprised that you would bother to try and deny it.
Ze’ev Jabotinsky himself said it in 1923.
“There can be no voluntary agreement between ourselves and the Palestine Arabs. Not now, nor in the prospective future. I say this with such conviction, not because I want to hurt the moderate Zionists. I do not believe that they will be hurt. Except for those who were born blind, they realised long ago that it is utterly impossible to obtain the voluntary consent of the Palestine Arabs for converting “Palestine” from an Arab country into a country with a Jewish majority…
…Every native population, civilised or not, regards its lands as its national home, of which it is the sole master, and it wants to retain that mastery always; it will refuse to admit not only new masters but, even new partners or collaborators…
…Every native population in the world resists colonists as long as it has the slightest hope of being able to rid itself of the danger of being colonised.
That is what the Arabs in Palestine are doing, and what they will persist in doing as long as there remains a solitary spark of hope that they will be able to prevent the transformation of ‘Palestine’ into the ‘Land of Israel.’ ”
— http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Zionism/ironwall.html
Believe me, Michael, Craig has been presented with that Jabotinksy text many, many times. As I’ve said, he operates in an alternate world where words and facts mean what he wants them to, be damned with how the real world understands these things.
I’ve come across many like Craig over the years. And they have convinced me that the only way to get to a viable peace is to dismantle the terrorist state of Israel.
Obviously, anything less will never work because of the extremist “craigs” of the world. They shall not be awarded for the destruction of the Two State Solution(tm) on top of the original crimes. They should be shunned by all people with a conscience.
Jabotinsky was reacting to the murders of Jews in 1920 & 1921.
Nope.
Uh huh. It all just happened out of the blue didn’t it?
“Upon its capture, the Jordanians immediately expelled all the Jewish residents of the Jewish Quarter. 58 synagogues were destroyed.[18][19] The ancient Jewish cemetery on Mount of Olives was desecrated, and the tombstones there were used for construction and paving roads.[20] Jordan also destroyed the Jewish villages of Atarot and Neve Yaakov just north of Jerusalem (their sites became Jerusalem neighborhoods after 1967).”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Jerusalem#Jordanian_rule
And?
I was reading through the thread seeing if I missed anything and I have to comment on this line they got stuck on.
They, the Hasbara trolls like Jack and Steve and cannot imagine themselves on the other side of the fence and watch as thousands and thousands of Europeans show up and say this is ours based on a claim from 70 AD.
American Indians can’t do it even though that genocide is not nearly that old.
Islamic State can’t do it with reestablishing the Caliphate which ended after the Great War only in 1924.
But Israel can do these things, and raze and burn and destroy 450 villages and towns, to “rebuild its National Home” based upon the Second Temple that fell in 70 AD.
There are several people in this thread who could go tit for tat with these guys on incidents on both sides, I could do it for several days and have. But that’s useless and doesn’t get anywhere (although I think it helps keep my researching honed).
The broader look stepping back is the three examples above make the problem a little more obvious. The world including the Palestinians were and are willing to accept a viable peace deal but Israel decided that colonizing what they had taken in violation of the ‘Charter was going to be permanent policy.
In the simplest terms that possibly some of these trolls can understand, this is like putting a bur under the saddle on a horse. And Instead of taking the bur out, adding more and more and more.
When it would have been far more sensible to simply accept victory in that they got their state, they declared it under UNGA 181, now go back to the borders, be seriously grateful that the Palestinians are not asking for Exactly the UNGA 181 borders that Israel declared as is I believe their legal right, and call it a day.
Israel could do this by accepting the Arab Peace Initiative tomorrow that goes back to the 1967 borders, call it victory, apologize for being such an asshole of a neighbor and move along.
Of course the irony is that the steves, jacks, craigs also fall for that old time bugaboo UNGA 194 as still being relevant and it’s not. If Israel annexes the rest of Palestine, 6.3 million rightly pissed off Palestinians come with the deal. Since there are 6.3 million Israeli Jews, the problem becomes obvious.
And yet they want to bog down in meaningless, in this context, minutiae in the old can’t see the forest through the trees.
After decades of hearing these Hasbara trolls, I am really starting to wonder is it thm who are working for the destruction of the last vestiges of Israel? It certainly is true that in the Greater Israel that is the default solution on the near horizon it seems so to me.
I wish a little light would go on in their heads and they hear a little voice in there saying, ‘hey, if we keep all this and all those millions of Palestinians that come with it as we surely must, Never Again, then that is the certain end of the Jewish national home. Maybe I’ve been wrong, to save Israel it must separate and the logical borders would be the ones that Israel already declared, and that the world recognizes.’
Oh sorry, I was multitasking and every time I come back and proof this I can’t resist adding and editing. I was just lamenting trolls out loud.
Wrong again, you inane, ignorant, israel-worshiping, Jew-baiting, Zionist asshole.
Where does the Partition Resolution say that private property is affected?
Evidence?
Hey Jack Green,
My uncle was stationed in Tel Aviv, Palestine, in 1946 (yes, that is how the envelope, with a letter which mentioned the event, is addressed ). He witnessed 2 RAF sergeants hanged from lampposts by Jews.
Zionist Jews worked with the Nazis to attack the British during the early years of WWII.
No way. Wow, my condolences to your uncle for having witnessed the hanging part. Sergeants Paice and Martin were killed elsewhere in a hole by the Irgun, then hung up in Netanya near the park that bears the name HaAlonim Park (The Sergeants Grove).
And they boobytrapped the bodies and I hope your uncle was not the unfortunate captain who cut them down.
— Kidnap, Torture and Murder of Sergeant Clifford Martin and Sergeant Mervyn Paice
Thanks
Filmmaker Peleg Levy is planning a documentary about this
You need to stop talking out of your filthy Zionist asshole, anti-Semite:
From “Page 41” of the United Nation’s Ad Hoc Committee on the Palestinian Question Report of Sub-Committee 2:
My source says 55% Jewish.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine
You don’t know how to read or find proper sources. For god’s sake, you’ve offered American Thinker for something or another. A wiki link does not rebut the primary document Mr. Hesse links to, and from which he quotes.
Some wiki article, in which that claim bears a note declaring “citation needed,” doers not rebut a primary document.
Indeed. And they just hate the 1922 British census of Palestine that shows that Palestinians outnumbered Israeli Jews seven to one.
Actually, if you add in the Bedouins, my source is fairly close to LOL’s source, but I like LOL’s source better because it’s primary.
The UN was anticipating that hundreds of thousands of Jews who had survived the concentration camps would be coming to Israel.
Could you document that number?
Who knew the Nazis were so incompetent?
The models of evil and efficient dealers of death missed quite a few,it seems.
Certainly doesn’t fit the Zionarrative we’ve been brainwashed for 70 years with.
Correct, it was your state-worshiping, Jew-baiting, Zionist colonizer terrorist murderer scum who stole it from the indigenous Palestinian people:
From “Page 43″ of the United Nation’s Ad Hoc Committee on the Palestinian Question Report of Sub-Committee 2:
Jews paid for land & would have continued paying for land if Arabs hadn’t started a war against the Jews in 1947.
This is what you generally do. Just spit out unsupported — and false or misleading — assertions. when pressed for documentation, you offer up racist, conspiracy-theory cesspools like American Thinker.
“From the 1880s to the 1930s, most Jewish land purchases were made in the coastal plain, the Jezreel Valley, the Jordan Valley and to a lesser extent the Galilee.[8] ”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_land_purchase_in_Palestine
Jesus on a crutch, you clearly have no actual command of the relevant historical period. All you can do is cite wiki and asinine, far-right loony tunes blogs.
In the meantime, I’m posting new comments that show your bullshit to be just that.
No one would have lost any land if Palestinians had not started a war against Jews in 1947. After Jews won the war, they were afraid that if they let Palestinians return some of those Palestinians would go back to murdering Jews. That’s not theft.
Stop blaming “Jews” – the fact is it was Revisionist Zionists who waged war and terror to gain a state. A state promised by the British in 1915-16 to the Palestinians before the Balfour policy statement.
Nearly every Israeli leader involved has admitted in one fashion or another that Zionists were intent on taking the land, and the Palestinians and the international community be damned.
They are still doing this as I am typing.
I’m posting standalone posts above that debunk the Zionist narrative, including all of your hasbara bullshit.
Ex Mossad director says Israel should negotiate with Hamas
Mehdi Hasan, one of the today’s best journalists, conducted an interview with Efraim Halevy , an interview that is going pretty viral.
Video here.
As I lamented earlier in the thread, the world just lost a superb woman — Hedy Epstein just died at age 91. Hedy was a Holocaust survivor and a Jew. This is the humiliating stunt Israel inflicted on such a fine humanitarian when she was 80-years-old:
Do read Ben Nortons’ whole celebration of Hedy’s life.
I will miss that wonderful woman. And when I hear the Hasbarians disparage her for her courageous stance including the Freedom Flotilla, I just want to throttle them for being so incredibly stupid.
If they met her in real life they would not have said a word to this wonderful diminutive lady.
When you venture out off the sands of the shore, and you dive for abalone, you pick first a spot upon the shore so later when you come up for air, you may look about to see where you are from whence you came and need to return to lest you drift too far.
Hedy Epstein, the mark on the shore of goodness in life.
Nicely said…thanks.
Beware that there are posters within who are devout zionists.
BACKGROUND BRIEF
These zionist cretins are a cult of organised criminals pretending to be jewish and who engage in ripping off countries and populations on a large scale. They always brand their victims as to being anti-semitic. In fact, it was the zions who owned and trashed the economies of the U.S. and Europe following WW1 until 1929 when in 1933 Adolf Hitler re-took control of germany’s currency system from the zions.
If you want to find more references as to the evil nature of the zionistas, here you go.
USS LIBERTY
DEIR YASSIN
UN RESOLUTION 3379
NAKBA
24 MARCH 1933
POLLARD
ISRAEL REFUSES TO SIGN NPT
SLAUGHTERED PALESTINE CHILDREN
DR. HAJO MEYER
RABBIS OPPOSE ZION
JESUS TURNING THE TABLES ON THE MONEY CHANGERS
THE MURDER OF JESUS REQUESTED BY THE MONEYCHANGERS
At the present time, the zion cult owns the U.S. currency system since they bribed the congress in 1913 to pass the federal reserve act which created a monopoly for them – a private company – and continues to destroy America.
Not surprised to read this post which represents the pov of a significant number of the anti-Zionist community on the Intercept.
“Oh dear. I guess there actually are significant Jews who deploy the “Chosen people” notion in a tribalistic, ethno-supremacist fashion. So, I’m just gonna spew out some name-calling. Cuz I’m a Zionist, and that’s a big part of what we do when confronted with unpleasant facts.”
meanwhile, here are some facts…
zionism is a crime against humanity
zions are racists UN RESOLUTION 3379
zions are anti-americanitic
zions are anti-palestinitic
zions are anti-semitic as they use Jewish persons as human shields
ZIONS ARE ANTI-JEWISH
Actually, the “community” here has banned multiple antisemites, just as it has multiple extreme anti-Muslim bigots. One of the latter is that vile person “gorsky” whom you have essayed to defend.
The Israel-Palestine matter is perhaps the most bitterly contested issue in the U.S. It implicates issues that draw bigots of both types.
It is, however, a win for truth that the fact of extensive, virulent anti-Muslim bigotry among Zionists is being widely established. Until rather recently, it was only deemed legitimate to condemn antisemtism vis-a-vis this issue. Indeed, the extent to which the Zionist narrative incorporates, and “necessitates,” obscene anti-Muslim bigotry is finally gaining a long overdue recognition.
Actually, the gorsky is over in the thread below Muratza’s latest piece, on the apparent entrapment of some poor-schmuck cabbie, by the Fibbies and their “phony-terror-for-handsome-profits” enterprise.
And it’s just as vile as usual.
The level of pollution in these threads, recently, is like Beijing on a bad day: ugly, stinky and dangerous.
I know Doug, but that’s how many Zionists roll. Some permutation of the “gorsky” name has been banned some 5 times, along with at least another 5 of its other accounts. But it just keeps coming back.
The staff here can’t endlessly waste time playing whack-a-mole with such determination to harass and post putrid crap.
“The staff here can’t endlessly waste time playing whack-a-mole with such determination to harass and post putrid crap.”
No, but better forum software would make it much easier to reduce the hateful torrent.
I think we’ve discussed this before, haven’t we? ;^(
No doubt. They could move this entire message base into DISQUS and have total control and a whole lot better thread control than this creaky thing. It could be done overnight on WordPress.
Yup. More than one of us has volunteered to handle such a conversion without charge. It is either not desired by the editors and publishers or . . . something.
They want to preserve anonymity for those who desire it. On the other hand, many sites are making the choice not to have comments at all.
I’ve presented TPTB with my position that commenting isn’t required, and so no one would be compelled to use a registration system if that were adopted. In the alternative, I’d rather see commenting abolished altogether.
For a long time we’ve been told that new commenting software is coming any day now. As well as some minimal set of commenting rules. With enforcement.
But they’ve put all their time and energy into pushing the journalism to 11, and neglected comments. That’s not a bad choice, but at some point something must be done. Either impose a system that prevents comments from devolving into a Youtube- comments level cesspool, or get rid of them.
“That’s not a bad choice . . .”
It’s not. The quality of the journalism here, beginning with a few stars but any number of false starts and missteps, has developed into some of the finest to be found anywhere. If I was ever skeptical (I’m sure a thorough search of my comments . . . ;^), I’m a believer now.
“. . . but at some point something must be done. Either impose a system that prevents comments from devolving into a Youtube- comments level cesspool, or get rid of them.”
Agreed. And, just for the record, although I haven’t been among Glenn’s regulars as long as some have, I’ve been around for a long time and, if we could dig through the archives, I think we’d find that I was Commenter #1 on The Intercept.
I, too, would rather see the end of comments than the continuation of the unimpeded flow of sewage.
I can’t pretend to see the number of current messages (comments) in the message base and I see the CDN in the source code and I have to assume some load balancing but with today’s speeds I figure the message base would transfer quite easily and probably over about 24-48 hours and then they would have the excellent features of moderation on the backside and much better threading on the public facing side.
Or so I heard on a street corner when I learned about sex ;)
I want to know how you have access to IP address and the number of times someone has been banned. Can you back up you claims about what this guy did to you? To quote yourself “it didn’t happen with out a link” and you are known for making false accusations.
No, I am not “known for making false accusations.” I made a mistake reading one of your posts in another thread, and when I realized it, I apologized. As I’ve repeatedly told you, I was on heavy duty narcotics for an infected tooth.
And I’m not linking to the putrid site (Site A) where all this happened with “gorsky” — it would be to publicize the shit that includes information about my family. For that reason, he was banned in an unusual process at the original site (Site B) where he encountered me and hated my arguments — thus sending him off to Site A to doe what he did with his sick friends there. The four moderators at this B site made a decision to ban him but did not do this in the usual public manner where the community usually discusses sanctions. They did that because of the nature of the foul behavior — it was personal, not a political debate.
As for how I know accounts have been banned: I was told. And I saw some of their posts deleted.
This is bullshit, Gil. This isn’t about political arguments such as between you and Mr. Hess. It’s about harassment and abuse. Glenn Greenwald knows it happened because, as I said, well before this wretched creature followed me here Glenn was privy to the abuse and harassment when it happened. We are friends, you know, and I was telling him about it in that capacity.
Really, Gil, you can pretty much get fucked if you are not going to simply agree that this vile person’s behavior is unacceptable. Trying to impugn my VICTIM credibility because of a mistake I made in a political argument — a mistake I acknowledged — is pretty low.
First of all on the very first post I made on this site you made the accusation that everything I posted was a lie. Then you refused to state what those lies were. You just kept harping on one thing that was a matter of opinion and not a lie. In this thread made the accusation that Zionists ethnically cleansed Jews. I realize this was a mistake in reading but you are so ready to pounce and call names without even bothering to read what someone has said that yes it certainly seems to me you have no problem being quick to accuse without fact. You also accused a bunch of different posters of having the same IP address and refuse to divulge how you have that information.
If the persons behavior is a you describe it it is indeed vile. By the same token you have given me a hard time and refused to acknowledge that I refuted the claim of Mr Hess because according to your rules “Link. Or it didn’t happen. ”
even though Mr. Hess made the same claim on this thread that I was refuting and providing a link was redundant. BTW I have no problem providing the link to the original thread:
http://forward.com/news/341306/just-half-of-american-millennials-sympathize-with-israel-over-palestinians/
Well, scroll up and you’ll find the answers you seek. Oren’s entire book is a study in using obfuscation to distort that fact that Israel struck first. And he admits this in the book and elsewhere as nearly everyone on this planet knows who has spent about five minutes of research time.
He knows full well that Nasser was motivated by the Russian whispering about the Golan and guess what, did you see Bibi’s stupid cabinet meeting the other day? I included the sources for those UN documents elsewhere in this thread.
It turns out that Moshe Dayan was also right about the Golan Heights. The proof in in the pudding. The President of the Security Council immediately reminded Bibi that the Golan Heights belongs to Syria, see UNSCR 497 and its unanimous vote.
I never “run” you – be bop yourself over to BBSNews and you can find me day or night.
Michael, It was you that was using his book as a source. Please spell out where he admits what you claim. You gave one quote without providing any context of when that was. I on the other hand posted what Mr. Oren says came after that quote. Your posts above don’t quote from Oren’s book or Oren so how could they possibly refute what I have posted to debunk your claim or support your claim about what Oren said ???? Face it you lost. Go eat crow.
Oops: “Murtaza”
China?Why the hit?AntiSino?
Mona you may have banned anti semites but barabas is still around and has been at least for the few week I have been posting. So is a guy name nuff said. I’m not sure who does the banning here but you seem to know exactly how it works and apparently have special privileges in that regard and yet here he stays spewing his garbage. I don’t recall having essayed for gorsky perhaps you can point me to it. I have not seen any anti Muslim behavior on this board that is worse than the anti Jewish stuff. Before we get into Zionists narratives lets concentrate on both sides of anti what ever on this thread, where you seem to wield some control and have special privileges. how and who bans people and how do you get access to there IP.
I know nothing about anyone being banned, apparently you are the only one chosen to have that information. I can say this guy has been posting this nonsense since I first started posting here a few weeks ago and his pov represents a significant number of the self pro claimed “anti-Zionist” posters here.
You’re right. You clearly know nothing about it. But Gator, I and several others posted about how unacceptable these antisemitic commenters were. Glenn publicly posted to Gator about it, explaining that he had banned a number of them, but only did this as he had time for it and felt especially moved by particularly wretched sentiments.
It would be fair to say Glenn heard about this from me privately. I strongly feel that failure to have someone at TI stay on top of the antisemitic or Islamophobic crap (and racist shit when the articles touch on race and the criminal justice system) and keep the worst of it out of here, is to invite the commenting space to descend into Youtube comments. And having TI become known for that would be a very bad thing.
I’d rather see this site, as many others have done, simply abolish commenting.
Just to be clear, while I have certainly complained about the anti-semitism often seen here, I have never advocated that any comment be deleted or that any commenter be banned. My real gripe was and is not about the anti-semitism, but about the lack of pushback against it from other commenters (your own admirable efforts in that regard notwithstanding).
True enough. As I recall, it was Glenn who brought up banning vis-a-vis his banning some antisemitic commenters. He also deleted a few, one that I recall was this woman who kept posting: “Fuck the Jews.”
The thing with that, is most reasonable people just scroll right on by the foolish haters who aren’t contributing anything to the discussion other than their bigotry. That approach has its virtues — it denies these trolls the ability to overtake and thus destroy the discussion unless they go so far as to crapflood. Me, I eventually have to smack these creeps down, but others just ignore it all.
I’d also have to say, when vile Muslim bigots like Jacob Pankowski or any of gorsky’s permutations spew their bile, none of the militant Zionists here say a word. But many of them do reply to them, or reply about them, as if they are perfectly acceptable people. One can concluded from that as one will.
At the end of the day, and again, I strongly believe comments must be lightly moderated to prevent crapflooding with vacuous, and/or repetitive text, as well the most extreme and crude bigotry. In lieu of that, close the comments altogether.
Historically, Glenn has very much valued a vibrant comments section. We’ve developed a community of sorts in his comments space of which you and I are both members. He’s generally participated with us there rather than holding himself above we peasants as if he’s “better than.”
But, these days, and while he does still participate here a little bit, he is swamped with the demands of journalism as well as with growing this site. (Plus, he has a Twitter addiction, and tends to reply to antagonists there more so than here.) If there’s no time to deal with protecting the integrity of the space, it just would be better to get rid of comments.
For whatever its worth Gator…there is an awakening happening by the revealing of evil done in the name of whoever, and whatever “religion”. It takes time to understand what is happening. To be sure…when we can eliminate our titles and look upon a situation in soberness of mind and determine whether it be good or evil toward another human being, is when the voyage begins. Until then there are those of us who are learning (esp. by references brought here by commenters who are selflessly trying to bring light into the chaos.) Do you pound a child for not learning to count the first time around? All so-called anti-semitism judgments are rhetorically used…esp. when trying to get to the Truth. Can you agree with that? Some say anti-semitism and some say STFU…what is the difference? It starts with all of us, we are not perfect, and if we can’t have the space to sort out the Truth then “dictatorship” is the order of the day. I am also aware of anti-gentiles here…but I skip over that too. The topic must stay on course…and that is the revealing of the evil in Israel, the US, and the EU against Palestinians. Peace
well said
thank you.
The irony is that the illegal occupation of Palestine and all the good work of the New Israel Historians has brought out facts about Israel which has lured actual anti-Semites out of the woodwork as opposed to those of us with an actual stake in a viable solution.
I abhor actual antisemitism, and “barabbas” is exhibiting classic antisemitism, but since I really just got here for an extended time today, I cannot quite tell if it is an affectation or the real thing.
But by the moniker “barabbas” when broken down says ‘bar Abu Mazen’ and the comments, it is borderline at the least and the line “zion cult owns the U.S. currency system since they bribed the congress” is outright olde tyme antisemitism, to use the US Government’s diplomatic language, it’s “unhelpful” to say the least.
“. . . “barabbas” is exhibiting classic antisemitism, but since I really just got here for an extended time today, I cannot quite tell if it is an affectation or the real thing.”
Sadly, it’s the real, ugly thing.
Why are Jews singled out for hatred,distrust and dislike,unmatched by any other religious ethnic group in this world?
Is it possible that they create this,by their own actions,or is it the innate predisposition of the goyim?
And the dislike is universal,btw,from the NP to the SP to the Eastern to the Western hemisphere.
Ignore this at your peril.Blame it on the haters,when it is the hate that Zion exudes that drives the hate.
Reality bites.
^^^ Another example of straightforward, certified, despicable anti-Semitism.
Yes, dahoit’s another one to whom I’ve raised strong objections.
Pointing out the reality of antisemitism(as defined by Jews)in no way shape or form means that I hate Jews.
As a Jew yourself,I’m sure that it is not amenable that this phenomena exists,but I didn’t create it,I’m just trying to expose the why’s of it,and its worldwide existence.
I could say that “Everyone likes the Jews,so why don’t you.”but I’d be lying,something I try not to do.
Shoot the messenger why don’t you?
Truth is now antisemitic,Very very sad,and pathetic.
exactly.
Why are you so insular,and make the truth antisemitic?I’m not a hater,despite your and the monitors claims,I’m just pointing out reality.
Why is this a universal attitude,antisemitism?
A question only Jews can answer,but they won’t,they instead shoot the messenger.
Psychotic to the extreme.
Old school Jewish Law is why Jews have been despised.
I argue Europe’s use of the Yellow Star, long before Hitler, was akin to today’s BDS movement. Imagine how a Middle Age society would react to this one group who dressed alike and had their own Law that prevented a Jew from saving the life of a non-Jew. Yes, if an observant Jew sees a small child fall into the water, he is forbidden from saving that child. He cannot even toss a flotation device to the victim. Yet he is quite distraught at witnessing the eventual death because he has to follow Jewish Law first and foremost. The Hasbarist’s explanation as to why his law is so important is at least as old as Shakespeare.
To be sure, many modern, decent, Jews do not practice the old ways. How many Jews do not get circumcised and orally sucked at birth? The subject is routinely discussed on the front pages of Haaretz. The sucking part, I mean. One explains such acts the way one explains slavery; it’s a sacred practice since a long time ago!
Cue -Mona-;
nuf said is an antisemite. nuf said is an antisemite. nuf said is an antisemite.
“. . . Law that prevented a Jew from saving the life of a non-Jew.”
Oh, G-d. ;^) This is a bizarrely-twisted misunderstanding of an already-bizarre and twisted argument that has little or no support in Halakha.
I promise, if you ever need to be saved on the Sabbath, the only Jews who wouldn’t spring to your aid are an infinitesimally-small handful of uber-frummy Haredi nutcases who wouldn’t be any help, anyway.
Sheesh.
Oh, it’s the real thing. He’s some species of Christian of the born again variety, and he adheres to all of that “Jews killed Jesus” crap. The vast majority of the born again crowd is, of course, starry-eyed over Israel because they think it means Jesus is coming back any day. And when he does, all the Jews are going to be converted, or something.
But barabbas is more in the old-time, antisemitic mold of fundamentalist Christian.
not really.
jews did not kill jesus.
there are 3 compositions of human form, mind body spirit.
the mind worships – any faith – it matters not.
Jesus did 1 thing – he prescibed the way of life support and belongingness – any faith – nothing to do with him as a religion – but as a protester who wanted people to just get along – to quote rodney king.
the old testament is what did not work. rules and punishments and such – doesnt work except for dogs.
Jesus is the way of the spirit. It’s a sixth sense. I dont push christian religion on anyone – i offer lost persons a connection. God is not a magic lamp you rub. God is a mirage, jesus was a person. We humans need more than laws, we need will for life, for sharing in support, for belongingness.
Zions are not quite all that human. They have “disconnected” from the family spirit of life. Like a client computer leaves the network, zions pulled the plug, and gather together as a nest of insects for they lack spirit of life and live by a hunger all they removed themselves from so they become wildly paranoid.
This has nothing to do with jewish persons. Zions who call themselves jewish are lying, masking, like chameleons.
EVIL LACKS SHARED WILL.
hello.
i have studied economics for decades.
without going into a lengthy dialog – which will happen later this year – let me offer you this instead please, a simple challenge..
You and yours and 100 couples (straight) go to an island of plenty natural resources. You have paper, printing press and ink. Now, make your economy so that everything is more than sleeping under trees and eating leaves.
Now GROW.
“Now GROW.”
Very bad idea.
St. Matthew Island.
Michael Hess , just so you can’t deny having seen it, like you’ve done in the past I am reposting my response to your claim that Michael Oren knows Israel started the 67 war.
See this is what happens when you don’t read the primary source depend on one sided articles that selectively use quotes but I read books and I happen to own this particular book. This is what immediately follows in Oren’s book:
“And yet Eshkol, for one remained unsure. He was waty of the context of inter-Arab and superpower rivalries surrounding Israel”. p60
” Dispatches on the situation from the south continued to arrive throughout the evening” ” Egyptian forces were taking up positions according the the Conqueror plan, well know to the Israelis, and Gen. Fawzi had flown to Damascus” 62 ” “Since achieving power Nasser had proved himself to be an implacable and unpredictable opponent. ” Had we failed to react – giving the Egyptians the impression that we were either unaware of their moves or complacent about them – we might be inviting attack on the grounds of vulnerability” Rabin later recorded. “on the other hand, an aggressive over reaction on our part might nourish the Arabs’ fears that we had aggressive intentions and thus provoke a totally unwarranted war” The latter scenario seemed the more treacherous, Eskol felt. While he approved a first level alert for the army, and the transfer of several tank companies he refused to mobilize reserves. Throughout the rest of that day… news from the Sinai continued to filter in. Two Egyptian divisions had moved to a fortified area of Jabal Libni and Bir Hasana. Rabin informed Eskol that the advance was well planned and organized” pg 62
BTW this all happened after the American reports you cited and before the Straits of Tiran were closed, itself an act of war. Anyway the chapter goes on to say Israel was so concerned that they asked U Thant to assure Nasser that Israel had no war like intentions and invited Chief UN observer Odd Bull to tour the north and verify the absence of IDF concentrations.
I also suggest you look up the Conqueror plan which was also know as Operation Dawn.
zionista handywork killing Palestinian children
Michael Hess was using selective quotes? Jesus.
Since he doesn’t actually read the books he cites and gets his stuff only from the web he probably didn’t know he was being selective. He certainly didn’t expect to get caught by someone who actually had read the book and owned a copy. It is fun to expose him for the charlatan he is though. The only thing Michael “eats for lunch” is crow and a lot of it.
Please link to this contretemps. No one here is able to assess your characterization of Michael Hess without such.
Michael Hess ? Gil G
May 27 2016, 1:23 p.m.
I run away from nothing. You mean where Michael Oren openly admits that Israel started the 1967 war?
“The current Israeli Ambassador to the U.S., Michael B. Oren, acknowledged in his book ‘Six Days of War‘, widely regarded as the definitive account of the war, that “By all reports Israel received from the Americans, and according to its own intelligence, Nasser had no interest in bloodshed‘.
— Israel’s attack on Egypt in June ’67 was not ‘preemptive’ [Emphasis mine.]
It’s all been posted. Michael made a claim that ““By all reports Israel received from the Americans, and according to its own intelligence, Nasser had no interest in bloodshed‘.
However this is just a cut and paste from article and as you would see if you read the book this was well before the conflict started. See my post which explains what happened next. Including the start of the implecation of Operation Dawn.
Link. Or it didn’t happen. If you can paste in fragments, you have a link.
It’s all on this thread . Hess’s claim about Oren conclusion of how the war started and his quote that he took from an article to support his point.
My rebuttal which included copious quotes from Oren’s book all cited with page numbers.
Perhaps if you spent less time posting false accusations and more time reading what people post you would have seen it. Anyway I sugguest you read through the thread again it happaned.
You have rebutted nothing. Michael Oren is a partisan of the most extremist kind, he renounced his American citizenship to join the government of Israel and not only does he parrot the long discredited Abba Eben line about the 1967 war, there is ample evidence that Israel was motivated to expand the territory that they wished they had gotten in 1948.
On May 27th, 1967 the United Arab Republic (the short joining of Syria and Egypt) referred a letter to the Security Council entitled “Israel aggressive policy, its repeated aggression threatening peace and security in the Middle East and endangering international peace and security” in s/pv.1347. The letter itself is S/7907:
“…4. The repeated Israeli armed aggression against Jordan and its recent aggression on the village of El Samouh.
5. The Israeli attempts to change the international status of Jerusalem in violation of the resolutions of the United Nations.
6. The Israeli aggression against the water projects in Syria utilizing Israeli Air Force.
7. The repeated Israeli aggression on the demilitarized zones specified in the Syrian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement.
8. The continued Israeli threat and the recent Israeli mobilization of its forces during the current month of May in preparation for the invasion of Syria as confirmed in the report of the Secretary-General to the Security Council on 19 May 1967, document 5/7896.”
The sentence that “gil” is all het up about in Oren’s book appears on page 59 in the chapter titled “Catalysts”, in Oren’s own words, and he was writing that the Soviets were whispering the notion that Israel was poised for an attack on Syria (they were right, see Moshe Dayan).
“Nor did the Israelis pause to consider whether these same Soviet warnings were reaching Egypt and, if so, whether Nasser would act on them. By all reports Israel received from the Americans, and according to its own intelligence, Nasser had no interest in bloodshed and had not even closed the door to some future peace settlement.”
Oren continues, after the United Nations Emergency Force had pulled out at Egypt’s behest, “what will Nasser do next?”
He goes on to write that a couple of Egyptian MIG’s had come out of the sky of Jordan doing an overfly of Dimona [p. 75], where Israel’s most infamous nuclear capability stems from:
“The incident touched on one of Israel’s darkest concerns, that its pursuit of nuclear power would impell Egypt to launch a conventional attack while it still had the chance. Back in 1964, Nasser had warned the Americans that Israel’s development of nuclear capabilities “would be a cause for war, no matter how suicidal.”
The U.S. assured Nasser that Israel was not developing strategic weapons, and he never renewed his threat, but the memory of it stuck with the Israelis. They never forgot the reactor’s proximity to the border, its vulnerability to aerial bombardment. Thus, though Nasser never once cited Dimona as a motive for his decisions in May, Israeli commanders assumed it was and concluded they had to strike first. Israel’s fear for the reactor–rather than Egypt’s of it–was the greater catalyst for war.” [p. 76 Emphasis in the original.]
Also, Oren admitted it again to Terry Gross on NPR:
“GROSS: One of the contested issues about the 1967 War is: Was Israel’s strike against the Egyptian army an act of aggression or an act of self-defense? With the documents that you’ve uncovered, how would you answer that question?
Mr. Oren: I think the ’67 War was largely a case of misperceptions and miscalculations. We know now from Egyptian records that Nasser didn’t exactly want to go to war, even in spite of his often bellicose rhetoric. What he wanted to win was a bloodless political victory.”
You go try and convince someone else. I will not be swayed by the Hasbara tactics, and I won’t be swayed by your appeal to authority argument, especially since there is so much controversy about Michael Oren, in particular his repeated denials about the fact that Israel tried to sink the USS Liberty, they did, they very nearly managed it. And knowing through experience that you can see even the first sized American flag for fifteen miles at sea and much farther in the air, and then they put up the holiday colors, I myself have never believed the lies about the Liberty and neither does a vast number of others including John Conyers when he introduced the findings of the [Admiral Thomas H.] Moorer Commission.
In fact, upon reading all this once again, I am compelled to go vomit that these lies have been allowed to continue for so long. Enclosed is the affidavit from Captain Ward Boston, senior counsel of the US Navy Court of Enquiry:
“For more than 30 years, I have remained silent on the topic of the USS Liberty. I am a military man and when orders come in from the Secretary of Defense and President of the United States, I follow them.
However, recent attempts to rewrite history compel me to share the truth.
In June of 1967, while serving as a Captain in the Judge Advocates General Department of the Navy, I was assigned as senior legal counsel for the Navy’s Court of Inquiry into the brutal attack on the USS Liberty, which had occurred on June 8th. The late Admiral Isaac C. Kidd, president of the Court, and I were given only one week to gather evidence for the Navy’s official investigation into the attack. Admiral John S. McCain, Jr., then Commander-in-chief, Naval Forces Europe (CINCUSNAVEUR), at his headquarters in London, had charged Admiral Kidd (in a letter dated June 10, 1967) to “inquire into all the pertinent facts and circumstances leading to and connected with the armed attack: damage resulting therefrom; and deaths of and injuries to Naval personnel.” Despite the short amount of time we were given, we gathered a vast amount of evidence, including hours of heartbreaking testimony from the young survivors.
The evidence was clear. Both Admiral Kidd and I believed with certainty that this attack, which killed 34 American sailors and injured 172 others, was a deliberate effort to sink an American ship and murder its entire crew. I am certain that the Israeli pilots that undertook the attack, as well as their superiors who had ordered the attack, were aware that the ship was American.
I saw the flag, which had visibly identified the ship as American, riddled with bullet holes, and heard testimony that made it clear that the Israelis intended there be no survivors. Not only did the Israelis attack the ship with napalm, gunfire, and missiles, Israeli torpedo boats machine-gunned three lifeboats that had been launched in an attempt by the crew to save the most seriously wounded–a war crime.
I am outraged at the efforts of the apologists for Israel in this country to claim that this attack was a case of “mistaken identity.” In particular, the recent publication of Jay Cristol’s book, The Liberty Incident, twists the facts and misrepresents the views of those of us who investigated the attack. It is Cristol’s insidious attempt to whitewash the facts that has pushed me to speak out.
I know from personal conversations I had with Admiral Kidd that President Lyndon Johnson and Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara ordered him to conclude that the attack was a case of “mistaken identity” despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Contrary to the misinformation presented by Cristol and others, it is important for the American people to know that it is clear that Israel is responsible for deliberately attacking an American ship and murdering American sailors, whose bereaved shipmates have lived with this egregious conclusion for many years.”
Michael’s claim is right below posted at May 27 11:37, my response is right above posted at May 27th 9:45.
I didn’t “get caught” by anyone much less some Hasbarian who has a lot of gall talking about actually reading the primary documents. Anytime son you want to re-open the fact that Michael Oren admitted in his own words in his own book that Israel knew full well that Nasser was not about to go to war, and I’ll be more than happy to oblige you.
See elsewhere in this thread where I again slay such an idea.
You Zionist Hasbara trolls are as predictable as you are wrong and antisemitic in the real sense to the core.
Michael, it’ pretty obvious that Gil is doing this bit about you as a means of changing the subject. He’s unhappy about so many here who inundate him with documented facts he finds unpleasant, and is in the ideological company of the pathologically unhinged “gorsky” entity.
In his position it makes sense to deflect with irrelevant, dubious spewings about some argument that went on somewhere else.
I’ve been at this for decades. And I have yet to have one of these Hasbarian admit, “ya know Michael, gosh, it does say in the Balfour Declaration that Israel was envisioned to be created in Palestine.”
For twenty-six years. They cannot bring themselves to admit that this is not a chicken versus egg argument. We all know that Theodor Herzl first posited Zionism and a Jewish national home in Der Judenstaat in 1896.
And we know that eventually, a half a century later that Israel accepted and declared borders of its state and then promptly and immediately went out of those borders.
And we know that Israel’s High Court has recognized that Israel holds Palestine under “belligerent occupation” no matter how many times these Hasbarians say “disputed.”
I see “gorsky” split the scene. These guys never hang around when they discover people who actually have the facts and the primary sources in hand and ready to deploy.
I’ve only been debating Zionists for about 3-4 years. Reason being, until about ten years ago I was a Zionist myself and evolving out of it was long and hard.
Two things deprogrammed me from the dominant, Zionist narrative: 1. The vast amount of online documentation of reality that also pointed to increasing numbers of outstanding books debunking the narrative, and 2. The behavior of Zionists when presented with the facts, including their treatment of those providing them.
Admitting unpleasant truths is not part of their profile. Almost no Zionist will do it.
My conversion out of Zionism happened in 1972. For decades I held my tongue, but things have gotten so obviously bad, and the politics of the United States itself has been so horribly skewed by these ethnic cleansing hateful people, that I cannot hold my tongue anymore. These people who killed the Two State Solution(tm) including the Hasbara trolls here are fully responsible for the destruction of the only Jewish national home there ever will be.
Not Iran, not Hezbollah, not Hamas, not President Jimmy Carter, Zionists. They brought this on and they have shamed ethical Judaism in the most horrid ways.
Which reminds me of Sir Alan Duncan, who in a speech the day after Britain’s Upper House voted to recognize the state of Palestine:
“Anyone who considers settlements acceptable places themself outside the boundaries of democratic principle. Settlement endorsement should be put on a par with racism, sexism, homophobia and anti-Semitism. Indeed, just as we quite rightly judge someone unfit for public office if they refuse to recognise Israel, so we should shun anyone who refuses to recognise that settlements are illegal.
No settlement endorser should be considered fit to stand for election, remain a member of a mainstream political party, or sit in a Parliament. How can we accept lawmakers in our country, or any country, when they support lawbreakers in another? They are extremists, and they should be treated as such.
What I am trying to say is as much an issue of justice as it is a matter of principle. Nothing motivates me more in politics than our duty to redress injustice. The pursuit of justice should be one of the main motivations for anyone who goes into politics.
Such is the injustice meted out on the Palestinian population – occupied, contained, deprived and repressed – that ‘Justice for Palestine’, like all the ‘isms’ which define our moral being, should now be a cross-party, international cause.”
— Sir Alan Duncan MP: It’s time to take on Israel’s settlements – and those who endorse them
The entire speech is amazing, I encourage everyone to read it. Without a doubt it is one of the most forceful and heartfelt essays against Israel’s illegal actions ever made.
Enough, if you have things I have written that you can challenge then do it. But right now all I’m looking at is someone who takes bits out of a post from a book he’s never read and gets schooled when the guy who owns the book shows that his claims were false and his quote did not include the rest of the story. I am also looking at someone who mis-characterizes and makes false accusations both of these have been proven. If you guys can find something I posted from the Oren book is false bring it. otherwise go away.
Please, right now all any of us are looking at is some fragments of some puported commenting thread from another site, with no link.
Link, or it didn’t happen. (It probably didn’t happen as you describe it anyway, but without a link, you deserve to be blown off on the whole thing.)
Did you read post? the issue doesn’t need to be reopened. It remains open. Challenge any thing I wrote. Again Oren didn’t say any such thing you read a small excerpt and are trying to claim that is the whole of his take on the war. I provided you with just a small sampling of Oren writing on the lead up to the war and have already totally debunked your claim. If you want to challenge any of my quotes or summaries go ahead. So far you have address one thing. Bring it.
And so far, you have not provided a link so we may all see this supposed Waterloo for Michael Hess. Unless and until you do, readers are justified in seeing this as nothing more than a diversionary ploy on your part.
What are you talking about it is still open I posted my refute of your claim with citations from Oren’s book, i and you have not responded to any of it except to call me names. Face it Michael the only thing you eat for lunch is crow and a great deal of it.
https://theintercept.com/2016/05/26/the-new-york-times-and-clinton-campaigns-abject-cowardice-on-israel/?comments=1#comment-235166
This is a political debate and you are quoting from posts at another site’s political debate. But you cannot or will not link to the actual discussion. There is no good faith reason for such a failure. Why? What are you hiding?
Unless and until you do link, your characterizations ought to be ignored.