When I moved to Lebanon in 1972, a joke was doing the rounds about an Englishman, a Frenchman, and an Arab tasked to write books about elephants. The Englishman wrote How to Hunt Elephants, and the Frenchman came up with Recipes for Cooking Elephants à la Française. The Arab, meanwhile, produced 12 volumes titled The Elephant and the Palestine Problem. Since then, publishers have poured out thousands of tomes on Palestine and Israel, some bad, some good. Ben Ehrenreich’s The Way to Spring: Life and Death in Palestine is the latest, and it is excellent.
You need a good reason to write or read a book on Palestine these days. Not only is the field over-tilled, it has become boring. We all know the facts or imagine we do, however differently we interpret them. To justify a new book, you have to provide new facts or a new way of looking at old ones. Ehrenreich does both. Many of his facts are new to us, his intended Western readership, if not to the Palestinians and Israelis who live them. His sensitive, novelistic method of depicting them can be dispiriting. But it is inspiring, as he introduces us to people who have been beaten to the ground and get up again and again.
“I do not aspire in these pages to objectivity,” he writes in his introduction. “I don’t believe it to be a virtue, or even a possibility.” He calls the book “a collection of stories about resistance, and about people who resist. My concern is with what keeps people going when everything appears to be lost.” Everything seems lost to the Palestinians. Three quarters of them lost their homes in Palestine in 1947 and 1948. Many ended up as helots in neighboring countries, while the rest fell under Israeli military occupation in 1967. Since then, colonies of Israeli Jewish citizens have seized most of their land. The Israel Defense Forces demolish thousands of their homes to make the settlement project possible. The IDF restricts their movement, their actions, and their speech, all the while confining them to smaller and smaller spaces on a landscape that threatens to vanish completely.
An extended family called Tamimi in the West Bank village of Nabi Saleh populates this book like characters in a novel by Thackeray or Dickens. Ehrenreich took time to know them and has the novelist’s talent to make us see the activist Bassem Tamimi, the beautiful and stalwart Nariman Tamimi, and the precocious Tamimi children. The youngsters flock to protests knowing that their homes are no safer than a confrontation line, particularly after Israeli shellfire killed one of them in his bedroom. These people are, to borrow a term popular in the First Intifada of the late 1980s that Ehrenreich does not use, samoud, steadfast. They endure prison and torture. They come home. They are beaten. They get up. A wall goes up to keep them in or out, and they find ways around it.
Ehrenreich’s introduction to Palestine came with two journalistic assignments, from Harper’s in 2011 and the New York Times Magazine a year later. Rather than let the story go, as most journalists do when they find another one, he went to live in Ramallah. This nominal capital of a non-existent state became his base for close observation of Palestinians and Israeli settlers and soldiers throughout the West Bank. Nabi Saleh is, in theory, a 25-minute drive from Ramallah. When Bassem Tamimi needed to take his son Waed to a Ramallah hospital, Israeli blockages and settler roads stretched the journey to 12 hours. That was normal in a land where “normal” did not mean what it did in places like Chicago or London or Tel Aviv. The least normal place in the abnormal West Bank was Hebron, where Ehrenreich spent a month amid the Palestinian population and the few hundred Israeli settlers who have turned the West Bank’s largest town into what he calls “Planet Hebron”:
It’s our planet. We made it what it is. And by we I mean all of us — those who acted, and those who do not act. … Hebron’s realities are the same as those in the rest of Palestine, only boiled down under tremendous pressure until they have been reduced to a thick and noxious paste. And Palestine’s realities are not different from our own.
In a footnote, he explained, “As I write this, demonstrators are shutting down freeways to protest the killings of Eric Garner and Michael Brown by police in New York and in Ferguson, Missouri.” The connection is closer than he realizes, as Jeff Halper demonstrated in War Against the People: Israel trained police from both New York and Ferguson in crowd-control tactics honed on the West Bank.
An Israeli soldier named Eran attempted to build a bridge to Palestinian children near his checkpoint by offering them a Cheez Doodle-like snack called Bamba. One boy accepted. Eran, who had been troubled by the treatment his fellow soldiers meted out to Palestinians, “felt ecstatic. He could finally be the man he wanted to be, a soldier who was loved for his kindness.” That night, he took part in raids on Palestinian houses, “to make sure they never lost the feeling of being chased,” and to map the interior of the houses. After searching two houses, his officer went after a third.
They forced the family outside into the snow and went in and started searching. Eran opened the door to a child’s room — he remembered seeing a painting of Winnie-the-Pooh on one wall — and had begun sketching when he realized there was someone in the bed. A young boy leaped out from under the covers. He was naked. Startled, Eran raised his gun, aiming at the child. It was the kid from the checkpoint that afternoon. “He started peeing himself,” Eran said, “and we were just shaking, both of us.”
When the boy’s father tried to protect him, the officer arrested the father and made him sit in the snow. Then the officer told Eran to forget about the map, which was not important. At this point in another book, Eran might have joined, like many other young Israelis, Combatants for Peace and denounced the occupation. The truth for Eran was, “I didn’t stop doing the things I did, I just stopped thinking.”
If the Palestinians endure such treatment, it is because they have no option. And yet, writes Ehrenreich:
It wasn’t all sadness. People laughed a lot. Or perhaps I should say that sadness has many faces, and laughter is one of them, though that’s not quite right either. It’s just that grief was not something special. There were greater and lesser sorrows, but sorrow was a given.
The early 20th-century Colombian writer José María Vargas Vila wrote in La Muerte del Cóndor, “When life is torture, suicide is a duty.” Yet for these people of whom Ehrenreich writes so elegantly, the duty is to remain. The Palestinian poet Tawfiq Ziad wrote:
we shall remain,
guard the shade of the fig
and olive trees,
ferment rebellion in our children
as yeast in the dough.
Charles Glass, former ABC News chief Middle East correspondent, recently published Syria Burning: A Short History of a Catastrophe (Verso).
Israel’s Minister of Intelligence has just proposed an artificial island 5 miles off the coast Gaza, just like China’s built for oil off the coast of Vietnam in the South China Sea, to supposedly house an international airport and hotel to Gaza’s benefit.
What do you want to bet it’s really about fracking Gaza’s PALESTINIAN natural gas reserves located in exactly that spot, and Zionist thieves finding a way to take resources not theirs.
http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000527712
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_gas_in_the_Gaza_Strip
If Israel wants it, it’s as good as theirs. All they have to do is make sure Abbas remains president, and they buy his son another apartment in London, and all the appropriate papers will be signed.
The leadership will sell out the the people, and then attend UN meetings,… everyday… because they’re statesmen. And that’s just the way the world leaders like it. And anybody who wont sign on the dotted line, is of course, a terrorist.
Devastating.
Brings to mind this account of a US Army Ranger in El Salvador Jon Schwarz linked to awhile back.
http://www.tinyrevolution.com/mt/archives/003564.html
The “normal” response in this situation, the situation Eran finds himself in, is to dehumanize the other. Instead, he compartmentalizes his soul. He detaches completely. I don’t know what difference it makes in the end. Maybe none.
Everything that led up to the Nakba, including the Holocaust, and everything left in it’s wake, is rooted in dehumanizing the other.
If any of you are wondering why these Grand Obfuscators are being called to account for their constant and shameless distortions, then treat yourself to a small dose of reality from http://www.news24.com/World/News/watch-un-concerned-about-israels-excessive-use-of-force-20160613
If you want the details, take a look at the report linked in the article – Fragmented lives: Humanitarian overview 2015.
This is not a difference of opinions as some of you are trying to paint, this is about an attempt by some here to obfuscate empirical facts on the ground that speak to the suffering of a large number of human beings.
The annoying pest: The hasbara troll
Jack Green is a hasbara troll, but there are and have been quite a few others of them infesting this site.
Indeed, as one can see from comments here, there are always a number of accounts who make it their mission to post vacuous, misleading and disruptive Zionist bullshit. Often, they are following talking points issued by both formal and informal “hasbara” projects. (Hasbara means “explaining” in Hebrew; in practice it means “propaganda.”)
Max Blumenthal has described these annoying creatures and their programs thus:
Hasbara trolls have also been assigned to comments sections, such as at the Guardian. They are likely here as well.
Israel and Zionist organizations publish “hasbara manuals,” many of which are available online.
Mona, why don’t you consider writing the Hasbara section on http://www.oceansofinjustice.com? Or at least contributing to it? You can reach me through the site.
Hasbara troll Jack Green persists in spewing the same talking point that has already, many times, been debunked
The hasbara troll spits out again:
For the last time.
Vladimir Jabotinksy is the father of political Zionism, the Zionism that prevailed and led to ethnically cleansing the Arabs of Palestine in sufficient numbers to create a majority-Jewish State of Israel. In the 1920s Jabotinsky was busy publishing about the “justice” of this atrocious plan, arguing with fellow Zionists who wanted to co-exist peaceably with the indigenous Arab population. Jabotinsky was writing material such as this about the Zionists who did not want to simply take the land from the Arabs:
In the 1920s, the indigenous Arabs understand, very well, what the ever-increasing numbers of Zionist colonizers were doing to them, and what they intended to eventually do. Jabotinsky was emerging as the most popular leader of Zionists and he was quite candid about these matters. Hence, a great deal of fear and rage and some violence, including killing, from the victims.
After all, Jabotinsky said that objecting to stealing the land form Palestinians was the morality of “cannibals.” The Arabs understood exactly what they were dealing with and responded as all peoples would, which Jabotinsky entirely and explicitly understood.
Jabotinsky would not have succeeded if Palestinians had not been murdering innocent Jews.
If Palestinians thought that Jews were doing something wrong, why didn’t Palestinians just call the police & have the Jews arrested?
Better hasbara, please.
From the Shaw Report (which concluded that most of the violence in the 1929 uprising was initiated by Palestinians):
As for “calling the police,” the vast majority of Palestinian casualties in the 1929 uprising (as in other incidents of the period) were caused by British troops shooting them.
British troops were shooting Palestinians because Palestinians were attacking Jews.
That still doesn’t explain why Palestinians didn’t call the police when they were under Ottoman rule or when they were under British rule before they started murdering innocent Jews.
The Jewish population of Palestine in 1915 was 83,000. By 1922, it had risen to 83,794. The Christian/Others population of Palestine in 1915 was 17,000. By 1922, it had risen to 82,498. Why were Palestinians so afraid that in time they would pass under the political domination of the Jews when the Christian/Other population was increasing much faster?
You are a hasbara troll who plays move-the-goal-post and shift-to-another-silly-question constantly. You cut-and-paste the same tendentious bullshit you’ve already posted in six other threads here — and to which you have received extensive, dispositive rebuttals. I’ve caught you lying and relying on a source who was lying about the history of Jews in Palestine. Not playing anymore.
If any intelligent person asks in good faith for replies to your inanity above, I will debunk it. But not unless.
“That night, he took part in raids on Palestinian houses, “to make sure they never lost the feeling of being chased” ”
Terrorism.
Literally!
Oh Oh. The people of Venezuela are signing petitions for a recall referendum against President Nicolas Maduro. This appears to be another US led coup in in South America. The economy has collapsed due to incompetence on the part of the socialist government, but Madero is blaming the economic collapse on an “economic war” by businesses backed by the US. Isn’t that normally the signal for the Intercept to intervene? According to al-Jazeera (today),
“……….Thousands of Venezuelans have been queueing around the country to validate signatures as part of a long-drawn-out process to request a recall referendum against President Nicolas Maduro……..about 1.3 million people signed a petition for a recall vote – far more than the 200,000 required to move the process forward. However, more than 600,000 of the signatures have since been rejected by the elections council………..For months now, Maduro has faced increasing hostility, with opponents accusing him of driving oil-rich Venezuela to near economic collapse……. Maduro, elected in 2013 after the death of president Hugo Chavez, insists he is the victim of an “economic war” led by businesses with the backing of the US……”
Someone needs to send a picture to the Intercept of a black nanny pushing the baby carriage of a couple of filthy rich white people in Venezuela. It is clearly another attempt by the rich, poorly tanned white people in Venezuela to overthrow the people’s government to push a neoliberal agenda.
The Only Democracy™ is imprisoning journalists
It’s going to get much worse. The documentation of Israel’s crimes against Palestinians has been flooding social media, a reality that galvanized an appalled world during the obscene bombing of Gaza two years ago. Every day, videos of Israeli military and police beating or killing Arabs, or of fanatical settlers or other far-right Israeli Jews attacking Arabs and/or shrieking in favor of murder and hatred — these are flooding social media.
Israel is going to “have to” do something about all this ugly truth reaching the world. And it’s starting, with journalists.
#BDS
Human Rights Watch Calls on Israel to Stop Demolition of [suspected, Arab] Terrorist Homes
That is collective punishment, and it applies only to Arabs. Jewish terror suspects and their families do not see their homes razed or appropriated.
It is foundational to many justice systems, including those of the liberal West, that individuals are punished for their wrongdoing, and not their families and friends. Israel utterly rejects this value. (Separate laws and procedures — one for the dominant people, and another for those they dominate — is also inimical to Western values.)That’s only one reason why Israel totally fails to meet the ideals of the liberal, democratic West.
It sounds like you’re against collective punishment so you should oppose BDS because BDS is collective punishment.
I’ve answered this many, many times. You simply do not like the dispositive answer. For the last time:
Israel is a collectivity. BDS is a boycott of a collectivity. BDS does not punish a collective for the crimes of the one. Israel is either not a “one,” or is the “one.”
Israel is a nation of many, I think you’re forgetting that there are Israelis who are against their own nation’s policies regarding Palestinians.
“Israel is a collectivity. BDS is a boycott of a collectivity. BDS does not punish a collective for the crimes of the one. Israel is either not a “one,” or is the “one.” ”
So you would punish the many for the crimes of the few? You’re a hypocrite. Want real change? Throw your support behind the sane Israelis and Palestinians. The best we can do at home is to cut the flow of money from Evangelical Christians to the Settler movement. They are essentially funding terrorism by Israelis and giving fuel to terrorism from the Palestinians.
You have to wonder just how much of this BDS movement is fueled by anti-Semitism. Please remember that Israel is the only nation of Jews, so it may be hard to convince people that anti-Israeli sentiment isn’t necessarily also anti-Semitic. As a Jew, it bugs me that people don’t try and qualify that for any arguments they make.
No, we really don’t. Many morally sound people, such as Desmond Tutu, are BDS supporters. This includes many Jews.
Again, no. Benjamin Netanyahu was just reelected Prime Minister of Israel — he did that be appealing to his right. Israel exists on ethnically cleansed, stolen land. The refugees and their descendants, are maintained in Bantustans in Gaza and the Wet Bank. Almost all Jewish Israelis serve in the IDF to enforce this apartheid and ongoing oppression. They pay for it with their taxes.
It is no more immoral to boycott the apartheid state of Israel than it was to do it to apartheid South Africa.
“No, we really don’t. Many morally sound people, such as Desmond Tutu, are BDS supporters. This includes many Jews.”
and then
“Israel exists on ethnically cleansed, stolen land. The refugees and their descendants, are maintained in Bantustans in Gaza and the Wet Bank. Almost all Jewish Israelis serve in the IDF to enforce this apartheid and ongoing oppression. They pay for it with their taxes.
It is no more immoral to boycott the apartheid state of Israel than it was to do it to apartheid South Africa.”
Contradictory statements don’t restore much faith you know.
The occupation is the result of the Jordanian/Palestinian land grab in 1967 yet you are blaming Israel.
Then the occupation of North America by Anglo-Germans must be the Indians’ fault. They have much to answer for ….
The occupation is the result of the Jordanian/Palestinian land grab in 1967.
Israel has offered to end the occupation in return for a peace treaty.
The Anglo-Germans have made no such offer.
“The occupation is the result of the Jordanian/Palestinian land grab in 1967.”
Right, just as the occupation of North America by Anglo-Germans was the result of the Native American land grab of 30000 BC—1500 AD. We just covered this.
The Native Americans were not grabbing land from anyone because no one was here.
Nonsense. They preemptively grabbed it from the Anglo-Germans who have always been the rightful owners. Just like the Zionists.
If settlers arriving in the Americas dug, they would not find ancient churches, but if you dig in Israel, you will find ancient synagogues & Jewish ritual baths. When the first settlers arrived in the Americas, they didn’t meet any Europeans whose families had been there for centuries. When Zionists arrived in Palestine, they met Jews who families had been there for centuries.
But no Palestinians, obviously.
Furthermore, if you dig in Israel, you will find plenty of ancient churches as well. When the Anglo-Germans first arrived in Palestine, they were merely fulfilling their destiny as the occupiers of the Holy Land. Six centuries later, the Turkish infidel having been removed, the Anglo-Germans sent Jews to occupy it again. So Israel is really just an extension of the Anglo-German Supremacy, which has always been the rightful owner of any place it occupies.
It helps to explain the contradiction you claim to be pointing out.
1. That’s fine, because I made none.
2. I don’t care about your “faith” in me, restored or otherwise. See my reply to you here to understand why.
For the less knowledgeable like myself: more specificity, please.
Israeli serve in the IDF to defend their country.
The Arabs are expansionist. The Arab League has over 5 million square miles of land while Israel has about 8,000. The Arabs have 99.9 % of the land & Israel has 0.1% of the land. The Arabs are not satisfied with 99.9% of the land. They have been attacking Israel from the day she was reborn because the Arabs want 100% of the land.
Not so much. Please read the article above these comments.
Bishop Tutu Is No Saint When it Comes To Jews
http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/1742/bishop-tutu-is-no-saint-when-it-comes-to-jews
The Bishop Tutu smear is baseless, and we’ve been over this at least once before. Everyone should simply conclude that your thinking and sources are as credible on this subject as they otherwise have been.
Zionists are shameless. Smearing a fine man like Desmond Tutu, all because he calls apartheid what it is. You are rapidly losing the sympathy of the world, and tactics like that are a significant part of why.
BDS is hurting people. It’s not hurting people because they’ve done something wrong. It’s hurting people because they’re Israelis.
Yes, it is. Just as boycotts of South Africa hurt Afrikaners. Being the pariah of the Western world isn’t fun.
See Afrikaners in apartheid South Africa. This is very much like that.
Boycotting worked with apartheid South Africa, and will work with Israel, too.
How can it work with Israel when the number 1 demand of BDS is that Israel end the occupation, but if Israel ends the occupation then thousands of rockets & mortars will be launched at Israel from the West Bank?
If it’s OK to BDS Israel, why is it not OK for Israel to BDS Palestine?
You already said this:
https://theintercept.com/2016/06/18/ben-ehrenreichs-new-palestine-book-explores-life-on-planet-hebron/?comments=1#comment-245305
and it doesn’t seem any more reasoned this time.
Not buying Israeli goods is a peaceful activity, as opposed to ‘moving the lawn’ in Gaza and stealing land in the West Bank with militarized bulldozers.
More than 575,000 Iraqi children died from sanctions.
Do you want more than 575,000 Israeli children dying from BDS?
BDS is demanding that Israel end the occupation.
If Israel ends the occupation of the West Bank,
Palestinians will launch thousands of rockets & mortars from the West Bank against Israelis.
So Israelis will die.
If Israel doesn’t end the occupation,
BDS will cut Israel’s source of income.
If they have no money, they can’t buy food.
If they can’t buy food, they will starve to death.
You’re straight-up cutting and pasting from the at least six other threads in which you’ve posted that, verbatim.
You’ve been definitively rebutted, repeatedly. I’m not doing so again unless a reader, whom I deem to be asking in good faith, asks that I do so.
Don’t bother with Mona, she has a bad habit of contradicting herself on this subject.
Then so are sanctions against Iraq, Iran, North Korea … did you have a point?
Participating in a boycott means that you have decided to hurt innocent people.
Boycotts can kill. Boycotts usually don’t succeed.
Ask yourself:
How badly will people be hurt?
How important is the cause?
Can people actually make the change you want?
What is the chance of success?
Are you willing to end the boycott if you see that it’s not working?
Right. So about those sanctions against Iraq, Iran, North Korea . . . .
The boycott against Iraq should have stopped immediately when Iraqis started dying.
Al l 3 were very important because they involved nukes which could lead to the death of millions of people.
Iran was the most important because Iran made a specific threat.
Boycotts against Iraq & North Korea failed.
These were government boycotts rather than BDS. Government boycotts have the advantage that they can easily be stopped. BDS is uncontrolled. Because it’s uncontrolled, it’s less effective because the target would think “Why should I make this change when BDS may continue anywar?”
I agree that the sanctions on Iraq were murderous. Fortunately, the BDS boycott lacks support in the UN and in Washington, whose fleet enforced the blockade, not to mention the capitals of Europe*, so few deaths are likely to result.
*Just like the boycott of South Africa.
Israel’s policies of collective punishment are perfectly inline with the illiberal, undemocratic West. That’s why US taxpayers fund them. Certainly, you ought to have enough leisure time to investigate many examples of the US dishing out collective punishment. Start with collective punishment dished out to the Nez Perce, Africans, Vietnamese, Afghans, and Iraqis.
And this bit — “… foundational to many justice systems …” — is so rich coming from an anachronism (american attorney) like you. What justice systems? The US’? Can a country where money is ‘free speech’ and laws are so arbitrarily applied really have something called a justice system?
So much free time and you still fuck up a free lunch. Your optics are looking a bit tattered.
You are deeply confused.
Not just leisure time; I’ve formally studied some of that. Altho not all of it was “punishment” per se, but rather simply disregard for human rights to use and abuse other humans as was deemed in the imperial powers’ interests.
In any event, you are quite clueless about both my knowledge and positions. And what you spew has little to nothing to do with Israel’s collective punishment polices, or with BDS.
This is one of the few times where the TI comments section has been a good read. I need to get better familiarized on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and this gave some good points of focus.
Richard Pearce
One of the more important aspects of the anti-Zionist strategy is to deny the reasons for Zionism. They do this consciously and unconsciously. They focus strictly on issues which attempt to portray Zionists as colonialists, ethno-supremacists and racists (Zionism equals racism). References to the centuries of anti-Jewish violence, bigotry, discrimination and hatred are ignored or marginalized for the preferred narrative like apartheid. Richard Pearce did an admirable job of “negating” the reasons for Zionism while calling Israel apartheid:
“……If you want to argue that its Apartheid is justified, the first thing you have to do is admit that it is Apartheid in nature, but a refusal to admit to that basic fact negates everything else you say……”
Until I admit that Israel is an apartheid regime, he simply is going to deny the entire history (thousands of years) of anti-Jewish hatred which I posted to him. That is a radical statement, but it’s an important aspect of the “unprincipled” anti-Zionist agenda. To show exactly how warped (and disingenuous) this kind of denial is about the origins of Zionism, I posed a simple question to the resident unprincipled anti-Zionist. Mona calls Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians on a scale of 1-10 a seven (10 being the worst). When I posed to her on several occasions what she considered the murder of an estimated 50,000-250,000 Jews in Russia from 1917-1921, she refused to answer.
CraigSummers
Aug. 16 2015, 5:34 p.m.
How does the murder of 50,000-250,000 Jews during the Russian pogrom between 1917 and 1921 fit on your scale of 1-10, Mona? We know that Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians ranks a “7” according to you. So where do you place the murder of
CraigSummers ? CraigSummers
Aug. 16 2015, 5:36 p.m.
50,000-250000 Jews
-Mona- ? CraigSummers
Aug. 16 2015, 7:12 p.m.
I place it at your usual Whataboutery non sequitur.
The refusal to answer such an obvious question about murder shows the lengths that unprincipled anti-Zionists (i.e., anti-Jewish bigots) will go to deny the origins of Zionism. The underlying motivation for the Zionist movement is what separates it from colonialism and apartheid South Africa. Negating, denying or ignoring those reasons are fundamentally bigoted comments deserving of the same scorn as far right denial of the Holocaust.
I haven’t seen any evidence of the truth of that assertion, Craig. I think we all understand the reasons why Jews have long felt the need for safe spaces to live and to openly express their culture(s).
Well, duh. You see, the fact that Zionists are and have long been all of those things is the very reason for opposition to Zionism. (BTW, those are among the easiest “attempts” at which one can succeed on Planet Earth.)
Is this an argument for a “two wrongs make a right” theory or excuse for vengeance? It’s hard to see how it could have any more substance than that. And it’s especially difficult to credit this whateveritis since the current oppressed victims are not the people who engaged in the prior mistreatment and oppression of the current oppressors.
Following the Holocaust, in which half of the world’s Jews were exterminated, with a 70-year mini-holocaust, perpetrated by a faction of Jews identifying as Zionists, is . . . literally repeating the horror, with differences of degree and detail — and sustaining it over a much longer period of time.
Ethno-religious supremacism married to intense nationalism is an inherently illiberal and racist, immoral system of values. Add in that establishing the state with those values entailed ethnically cleansing the Other — and then maintaining them as refugees in an apartheid state — and one has a diagram for disastrous and odious “Jewish” values — to the extent Jews are Zionists, they generally retreat from universalism and turn to fierce, ugly tribalism. And extreme militarism.
The Holocaust is the only argument I will seriously consider as a justification for 1948 (I ultimately reject it). But it does not begin to excuse the failure to compensate and make amends to Zionism’s victims; indeed, instead Zionist crimes against the victims have continued since the foundation of Israel.
The justification for 1948 is self-defense.
Palestinians attacked Jews & Jews defended themselves.
No. Baseless.
Certainly not as against the indigenous Palestinians. Zionists were the colonial oppressor, and still are.
I’m not arguing this with you further, because you’ve seen the copious documentation many times, from me and others.
Should any reader whom I deem to be asking in good faith request to see it, I will comply. But I’m not repeating myself to a hasbara troll again.
Are you denying that in the 1920’s, Palestinians were shouting “The Jews are our dogs!” & “Islam was spread by the sword.” as they murdered innocent Jews?
Are you denying that in the Jerusalem riots December 2, 1947 8 Jews were reported killed?
Are you denying that on December 26, 1947 7 Jews were killed while driving in convoy to Jerusalem?
Are you denying that in the Haifa Oil Refinery massacre December 30, 1947 Arabs beat 39 Jews to death and injured 49?
“References to the centuries of anti-Jewish violence, bigotry, discrimination and hatred”
“Is this an argument for a “two wrongs make a right” theory or excuse for vengeance? ”
Of course not! It’s an explanation for why a Jewish state is necessary. Majority-gentile states have failed to protect their Jews so a majority-Jewish state is needed.
“a 70-year mini-holocaust”
Really?
For 70 years, Palestinians have been attacking Israelis & Israelis have been trying to defend themselves.
You’ve successfully demonstrated the weakness of comparing the Holocaust t o the plight of the Palestinians. By mentioning that it is “literally repeating the horror, with differences of degree and detail “, you are stating that it is at the one time identical to the Holocaust, an industrialized genocide in which the entire apparatus of a state was devoted to the elimination of people but at the same time it varies in “degree and detail”. So is it “literally” the Holocaust or different in both “degree and detail”?
Doug Salzmann
“…….I haven’t seen any evidence of the truth of that assertion, Craig…..”
I think your favorite commenting partner is a classic example (just look at her reply to you where she refuses to give any recognition to Jewish history – except grudgingly to the Holocaust). Don’t worry though; it is not based solely on Mona. Most far left wing commentators won’t recognize the underlying reasons for Zionism because it does provide legitimacy to the Zionist movement. Certainly Richard Pearce might have thought that the reasons for Zionism (and I posted that to him) were beside the point he was making about the refugees, but they are very much an important part of Jewish self-determination and maintaining a Jewish majority state.
“…….I think we all understand the reasons why Jews have long felt the need for safe spaces to live and to openly express their culture(s)……”
That is so easy to say because it is the truth. It is not a concession that creating a Jewish state in Palestine was right. It is not stating that Jewish people have a right to Judea and Samaria . It’s not a stating that the Palestinians have no right to self-determination. No one concedes anything about the plight of the Palestinians when they recognize Jewish history. It is just a simple truth – one of the principle motivations underlying the Zionist movement. Unfortunately, giving any legitimacy to the Zionist movement is rejected by unprincipled anti-Zionism.
“…….Well, duh. You see, the fact that Zionists are and have long been all of those things is the very reason for opposition to Zionism……”
Those are just made up reasons (i.e., propaganda) for delegitimizing the Jewish state (Zionism) which are used – as I stated – to deny Jewish history. The Zionist movement was not a colonial venture. It is most certainly not the same as South Africa or the settlement of the Americas, Australia etc. Zionism is a “nationalist and political movement of Jews and Jewish culture that supports the re-establishment of a Jewish homeland in the territory defined as the historic Land of Israel” motivated by centuries of anti-Jewish hatred and violence. Zionism has nothing to do with racism or supremacism. Palestine was a logical choice for a Jewish state where the holiest city in Judaism is located.
Of course, there were (and are) racist and supremacist Jews who immigrated to Palestine and live there now just as there were and are racist and supremacist Arabs. After all, Jewish people (all minorities) were designated dhimmis, or second class citizens in the Islamic empire for hundreds of years. Regardless, the delegitimization process applied to Israel (and only Israel) is just propaganda. Israel is not an apartheid state etc.
“…….And it’s especially difficult to credit this whateveritis since the current oppressed victims are not the people who engaged in the prior mistreatment and oppression of the current oppressors……”
While that is true (when it comes to Jewish immigration from Eastern Europe etc.), Omar Barghoutti – the leader of the BDS movement – still participated in the same far left and far right delegitimization process directed at Jewish self-determination. Barghoutti was very well schooled in radical left terminology and propaganda – and I would call him an unprincipled anti-Zionist. The end goal of the BDS program is the dissolution of the one Jewish state. It will fail because of that.
“…….Following the Holocaust, in which half of the world’s Jews were exterminated, with a 70-year mini-holocaust, perpetrated by a faction of Jews identifying as Zionists, is . . . literally repeating the horror, with differences of degree and detail — and sustaining it over a much longer period of time……”
You are going off the deep end. There is no applicability of a Holocaust in Palestine. However, you can make a strong case that the Israelis (Jews) are denying the Palestinians their right to self-determination affirmed by the 2004 decision by the ICJ. Additionally, world opinion is strongly opposed to the continued expansion policies of the Israeli government (not just current, but all Israeli governments since the Oslo Accords were signed). Eventually, international pressure will force Israel to find a just solution. The BDS movement is not the right policy to endorse, however. In addition, my guess is the fraction of Jews that support Zionism is probably about 70% in the world (today). Maybe you have a different number(?). The percentage of Jews that supported Zionism went dramatically up after the Holocaust.
Just as a side note, the Palestinians – and especially their leaders like Arafat and the leaders in the Arab world – deserve their fair share of blame in the failure of the peace process. Of course, they passed on creating a state between 1947 and 1967 with borders on the green line. However, Arafat’s biggest mistake was initiating the second Intifada after an offer of peace from Israel. It doesn’t matter if the offer by Israel was not what the Palestinians thought they deserved. That set the peace process back years – and led to the current conditions in Palestine today. That is rarely mentioned by unprincipled anti-Zionist as well probably because they can’t connect the US to the start of the war.
Thanks.
Eesh.
Hasbara troll, Jack Green, demonstrates his fuckwittedness yet again:
Israel collectively punishes the families of anyone suspected of a crime designated as terrorism — unless the terrorist is Jewish. No Jewish families have their home razed and property taken because one of their members has murdered an Arab.
By contrast — and this is widely condemned by the international human rights community — Israel routinely collectively punishes families of Palestinians who are suspected of attacking Israelis.
From Haaretz, my emphasis:
This two-tiered legal system — two sets of laws, one for Jews and one for Palestinians — is one of the hallmarks of Israel’s apartheid regime.
Hi there, do you think you could just let the story sit with you for a while? Just let it sink in and let it be. There is no need to always respond, you know. Sometimes that diminishes the effect of the story, don’t you think? Just a suggestion, you certainly do not have to take it to heart.
What the hell are you talking about?
“Jack Green” made a preposterous claim (in the form of a rhetorical question), and I effectively rebutted it with facts and reality.
Truth diminishes nothing.
Cursing doesn’t make your argument that persuasive, is the issue. If you always react with rabid anger to people who disagree with you, instead of sticking to an issue-based rational discussion, it undermines your position.
In the collective punishment issue, sanctions could be seen as ‘collective punishment’ – except that they target official government policy, not individual actions. In addition, the ‘collective punishment’ that the Israeli government carries out in the West Bank is actually part of their ongoing attempt to drive Palestinians off their land for the benefit of the illegal settler movement.
Now, that’s what is called a calm, rational arguement – Jack Green would have a hard time responding to it – but he can gain sympathy for his position by pointing to your ‘fuckwittedness” comment as a personal attack. Is that so hard to understand?
No.
It’s not.
At all.
Jack Green is a fuckwitted hasbara troll who’s been spewing the same debunked bullshit here for months. I do not respect hasbara trolls, and one can tell that. Is fine by me.
Oh, please cut it out. Trying to politely explain anything to you is apparently a waste of time. What you are doing (also seen in your vicious personal attacks on that Lee Fang article on opiate addiction) is called Internet trolling.
https://theintercept.com/2016/05/31/congress-boosts-rehab-but-gives-opioid-pushers-a-pass/
Everyone who disagrees with you on any issue is subject to increasingly virulent personal attacks, regardless of what the subject is. “No, it’s not. At all.” is followed by “you f-ing this, you f-ing that” and culminates in “I hope you suffer debilitating pain.”
That’s vicious internet trolling, and it has no place anywhere – so either get some help with anger management, or find some Internet site like 4chan that caters to your approach to post comments on.
Although I am not for cursing, I think your focus on cursing creates a diversion. Combine this with the fact that you are portraying this as a simple disagreement – which it is not. A disagreement on the facts is no longer a disagreement when empirical facts (substantially) support one view or the other.
Jack Green and Craig Summers views are not simply disagreements. These are attempts at doublespeak and distortion. One can advise against profanity, but let’s not shift the focus away from disingenuous, distorted, an deliberate conversation some people are engaged in.
Hi JayZ
You are free to point out my “doublespeak and distortion[s]”. I have plenty of posts to choose from. At least photosymbiosis has taken the time to challenge my posts.
Thanks.
“I have plenty of posts to choose from. ”
Why choose?
There we have it. I suspected as much, i.e., that the deserved smackdown that I, Doug, the normally gentle Pedinska, and a number of others, directed at you in that thread was driving your prissy school marm shtick.
This isn’t that thread. But you remain you.
It’s fine by me as well. It is time that the Hasbara trolls are shut down each and every time they pop their nasty little heads above the rim of the toilet bowl that they inhabit.
They are antisemitic by design, and everyone with a conscience including all diaspora Jews should start confronting these fuckwits. This is well under way already. From J-Street to Jewish Voice for Peace and Americans for Peace Now.
One day Hasbara trolls will be seen as part of the main impetus for the loss of the only Jewish national home there ever will be. It could be saved tomorrow, but Bibi and co refuse to give up the illegal colonies, the demographics reached parity last September, and the jig is up.
Which you know of course, Mona but I wanted you to know that I appreciate the candor and if some cursing offends some people, gosh, I wonder why that is – but they can’t work up the same froth when an already shot down Palestinian is summarily executed in the street, followed by high-fives from one of the illegal colonists… (or thousands of other similar Israeli War Crimes)
And besides, I don’t have a fuck to give. ;)
It sounds like you are against collective punishment so does that mean that you’re also against BDS because BDS is collective punishment?
I agree with a lot of your posts that I have read, but there is a time and a place for politeness and any point of contact with the likes of Craig and Mona ain’t it. Mona, for example, rubbishes torturers one day and runs errands for them the next. She has also expressed an intense desire for my death. The USA is full of nasty people with an unhealthy appetite for blood and there is no point in being genteel about it.
Please don’t take offense, photosymbiosis. If your posts are sincere I have absolutely nothing against you.
You are literally mentally ill, and imagining things. None of this is real:
I have never remotely, either explicitly or by implication, wished for your death or for that of any other. This is all part and parcel of your severe delusions.
You claim to be a “Target Individual,” and that “they” are torturing you. There are many unfortunates like you. Anyone interested can read about your sad affliction here. (Which includes some history of those like you who have infested these comments.)
It was not a rhetorical question.
I thought that you blamed Israel for using collective punishment, but then you said that collective punishment is OK.
So I wanted to know if I was right about your blaming Israel for collective punishment.
From your answer, I see that you do blame Israel for using collective punishment.
So my new question is: Why do you blame Israel for using collective punishment if you think that collective punishment is OK.
I’ve already extensively addressed your repetitious argument, in several comments. Including this one.
Israel has been under siege since it’s creation by the United Nations. Over half a century of that and it’s not surprising to see why the Israelis have grown zealously violent in defending themselves.
I’ll say this and I’ll always say this, neither side is deserving of anyone’s pity or aid. Both sides commit horrible violent acts against one another on a regular enough basis to make mass shootings in America seem like playground fights.
Israel was not “created” by the United Nations. It was established through Zionist force of arms, including a great deal of Zionist terrorism.
Indeed, Zionist terrorists assassinated a UN mediator in Palestine.
You are full of bullshit, and I shall not wast my time debunking all of it.
Apartheid means separation. There’s no separation in Israel.
Service, selflessness and generosity without any expectations are the first steps towards a lasting peace and an inner state in which otherness disappears and enemies become lovers.
If a path doesn’t lead one to that inner transformation, it’s to be discarded no matter how much we are attached to it.
But there is a hierarchy of needs. It’s very challenging for one to embark on a path of higher knowledge and illumination if the most basic needs are not being fulfilled and one’s mind is agitated and full of fears and anxiety.
Hi Sufi Muslim
Wise words as always from you. It reminds me of the story of the Buddha who almost died of starvation while aiming for enlightenment. It was by following the ‘Middle way’ that his aim was achieved – extremism on either end can be detrimental. You seem to be someone who understands the idea that there is no we versus them, there is only us.
Like five people wrote the majority of the 123 comments to date.
To those five people: go outside. Live your life. Nobody is reading your book-like comments. Seriously, who reads comments that are like a chapter long?
You will have observed — or should have if you paid attention — my posts are seldom long. Moreover, the lengthier they get — which for me usually isn’t very — I break up paragraphs, and use formatting to break up text and signal points.
I do this precisely because I also find super long posts unappealing to the eyes. And will often merely scan, even if it’s someone I generally agree with. Rendering one’s text appealing to the eye, making it readable, is factor too many do forget.
Finally, different people have different interests and ideas about what constitutes entertaining diversion. Engaging in well-informed debate about the pressing issues of the day is one of the more productive and enriching ways to use leisure time.
You are generally the most prolific poster at this site, Mona.
https://theintercept.com/2016/03/18/brazil-is-engulfed-by-ruling-class-corruption-and-a-dangerous-subversion-of-democracy/?comments=1#comment-212423
Answer: If they are well-written and effectively formatted, readers who are interested in the content and who are used to, and comfortable with, reading for information.
Who doesn’t read such comments? I don’t know, but I strongly suspect that many who don’t are from a post-literate culture/generation — folks with short attention spans for written material.
Right — I don’t write for them, even in my lengthier posts. My words are usually directed at those interested in information exchanges — i.e., learning about the topic.
That’s among the reasons I almost always ignore personal attacks and lengthy rants that are little more than personal abuse — extended text about my purported deficiencies and nefarious motives. If there’s any substance embedded in such commentary I’ll sometimes address that, but I’m not going to adopt the “I know you are but what am I” idiocy that too often takes over comments sections everywhere.
The idea that the Intercept is just a small growing media outlet which cannot cover every story is disingenuous when they have a staff of 30 journalists covering such worthless stories as “AMERICAN SNIPER” CHRIS KYLE DISTORTED HIS MILITARY RECORD, DOCUMENTS SHOW. The New York Times carried a story this morning over the economic and democratic crisis in Venezuela – a story ignored by the Intercept even though their problems have a similar origin to the problems in Brazil.
The Intercept has thoroughly covered the political upheaval in Brazil supposedly because of the threat to democracy in that country, but the problems in Brazil and Venezuela can be traced to the mismanagement of the economy by leftist governments. While the drop in oil prices is a major factor for the economic woes of Brazil and Venezuela, poor management of the economy by the Workers Party in Brazil and Venezuela’s socialist government are the primary reasons for the unrest in both countries. Corruption associated with the Workers Party (PT) also contributed greatly to the massive protests against the Rousseff government. On June 17th, the Guardian reported,
“……..“Forty-nine days before the opening of the Olympics, the governor of Rio de Janeiro has declared a state of financial emergency and begged for federal support to avoid a “total collapse in public security, health, education, transport and environmental management”…….”
The poor economies of Brazil and Venezuela have bolstered the political instability – and threaten democratic processes in both countries. The conditions are worse in Venezuela:
“………With delivery trucks under constant attack, the nation’s food is now transported under armed guard. Soldiers stand watch over bakeries. The police fire rubber bullets at desperate mobs storming grocery stores, pharmacies and butcher shops. A 4-year-old girl was shot to death as street gangs fought over food……..And they showed that even in a country with the largest oil reserves in the world, it is possible for people to riot because there is not enough food…….In the last two weeks alone, more than 50 food riots, protests and mass looting have erupted around the country. Scores of businesses have been stripped bare or destroyed. At least five people have been killed…….The economic collapse of recent years has left it unable to produce enough food on its own or import what it needs from abroad. Cities have been militarized under an emergency decree from President Nicolás Maduro……..Economists say years of economic mismanagement — worsened by low prices for oil, the nation’s main source of revenue — have shattered the food supply……”
To suggest that related serious political problems in adjoining countries cannot be covered because of priorities is a serious cop-out. The Intercept chooses where to put their resources. Is the Chris Kyle story more important than a four year old girl dying because of food rioting in Venezuela? Yes – according to the political priorities of the Intercept.
PR operative manual: If one cannot counter the arguments rationally, then attack the source that publishes the argument.
One such argument is that a government that uses a religious test as the basis of things like land rights and immigration cannot call itself a democracy. This is the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution:
Israel not only has religious tests, but also censors the press (particularly on the issue of discussing the Israel nuclear arsenal, but also when it comes to reporting on Israeli military activities in the West Bank and Gaza). Hence, it has no claim to being a true democracy; it is an apartheid state.
Craigsummers has attempted to dodge this issue by relying on a narrow racial-only definition of apartheid; that’s nonsense. And since craigsummers can’t counter this argument rationally (and he refuses to discuss the Israeli nuclear arsenal), he attacks those who make it using other tactics. For example, he tried to point to my posts that conclude that Trump’s foreign policy would be less dangerous than Clinton’s foreign policy.
However, I changed my mind on Trump after listening to his race-baiting (or is that religion-baiting) targeting Muslims in the wake of the Orlando shooting – that was the straw that broke the camel’s back, for me.
But what would it take for craigsummers to change his mind on supporting Israel? When Israel’s Ya’alon, their ex-defense minister, resigns from the government because it’s gone too far to the right (and this is the same Ya’alon that viewed ISIS as less of a concern than Iran, and preferred that ISIS take over Syria), yet craigsummers continues to support that government (as does Hillary Clinton, Mario Cuomo, etc) what does that say?
So tell us, craigsummers, what would it take for you to change your mind about support for the current Israeli regime, for its illegal settlement policy in the West Bank, for the continued persecution of Palestinians?
“……PR operative manual: If one cannot counter the arguments rationally, then attack the source that publishes the argument……”
I am not attacking the source for an article. I am criticizing the source for not covering a particular story (related to one they cover extensively) in favor of much less important stories. Of course, that is my prerogative.
Is there anything that the Israeli government could do that would cause you to drop your support for their actions? Perhaps you’re just some kind of robot program running down a list of talking points?
I think it is because not only is Craig an Hasbara troll, it is a neocon Hasbara troll.
These guys are upset that their feel-good story about “American Sniper” is bunch of bullshit. They wanted to feel self-satisfied from the armchair that someone was out there just wasting people with a high powered sniper rifle, as long as it was Those people.
I’m just going to take a moment to say that many rational Jews (such as myself) have divorced themselves from the whole Israeli Zionist movement. No side in that whole fluster cluck deserves sympathy. Israel is currently run by the worst kind of hypocrites in modern history, and the Palestinians by large turn a blind eye to the instigators in their ranks. At this point, they DESERVE each other. The best thing us here in the USA can do is stop our government and the right-wing evangelical doom-mongers from pouring any more jet fuel (or money) on this forest fire.
In exactly the same way the black, indigenous Africans “deserved” the racist, colonizing Afrikaners. No parity of immorality exists here. There’s a clear oppressor (Zionists) and the oppressed (Palestinians).
Palestinians have been oppressing Jews for centuries.
Palestinians are the oppressors and Israelis are the oppressed.
Palestinians are stabbing Israelis.
Palestinians are running over Israelis.
Palestinians are throwing rocks at Israelis.
Palestinians are blowing up Israeli busses.
Palestinians were shooting rockets & mortars at Israelis.
I do believe I once read a letter to the editor making a similar sort of argument for the claim that Bantus were oppressing Afrikaaners. And the German POWs sent to both my parents farms in England had definitely heard the claim that it was Jews who’d been oppressing Germans. Friends who worked in the domestic violence field would hear, again and again, that it was the victim who started the violence. All any of those claims took to seem reasonable was a willful ignorance of the facts.
Are you denying that:
Palestinians are stabbing Israelis.
Palestinians are running over Israelis.
Palestinians are throwing rocks at Israelis.
Palestinians are blowing up Israeli busses.
Palestinians were shooting rockets & mortars at Israelis.
Look, you fuckwitted simpleton. You just spit out this:
Only a deeply indoctrinated Zionist — whose drunk hundreds of gallons from the Zionist Fairy Tales Well — is going to do anything but laugh at such bullshit.
Are you denying the Palestinians were murdering innocent Jews in 1920?
Oppressed people frequently murder their oppressors. If you like, I have enormous amounts of material from and about that era documenting the ways in which Zionist Jews were displacing indigenous Arabs, and imposing grossly discriminatory employment and housing policies on them.
I further have much documentation that the Palestinians fully knew that Zionists were carrying out an explicitly colonial project to take over their cities, villages, farms and orchards. Valdimir Jabotisnky wrote, at the time, that the Arabs were not stupid and could clearly see what was happening to them. It’s just that in his case he approved.
Finally, you know everything I just wrote. You’ve seen the copious documentation, from me and others.
But hasbara trolls gonna troll.
There were Palestinians who refused to hire Jews. Should those Palestinians have been put to death?
Palestinians also attacked indigenous anti-Zionist Jews.
You know, as I’ve said before, this strictly Palestinian good guy- Israeli bad guy narrative that you insist on is not the least bit productive and it glosses over the atrocities committed by both sides; claiming that a suicide bombing killing a bunch of Israeli teenagers is ‘justified’ because the Israeli military killed a bunch of teenagers in Gaza is not a rational argument.
This is why, as with South Africa, a resolution of the conflict will require something like a Truth and Reconciliation Commission that has the power to offer amnesty to Jews and Muslims, Arabs and Europeans, in exchange for honest testimony on the violent actions that both sides have carried out.
Nelson Mandela didn’t run with a “the whites will lose, the blacks will win” kind of line that you seem to promote here, Mona. If he had, he would not have had the success he did in lifting apartheid.
One of my favorite Mandela quotes, by the way, is this one:
I would urge Palestinians to take that statement into consideration with respect to how Hamas tries to rule Gaza. There are plenty of bad actors on both sides of this conflict, there’s no doubt about that.
For example, ISIS wants to conflict to continue as they can then point to Palestinian oppression in order to recruit new members; Zionists want the conflict in Gaza to continue as it aids them in their ethnic cleansing and land seizure program in the West Bank. (And notice how Zionists like craigsummers are supporters of ISIS?)
So tone down the one-sided anger; it really doesn’t help much.
You are deluded. I hold to no such narrative and do not post otherwise.
Hamas is corrupt; the PA even more so. I’ve said that any number of times. More times than I can count, I’ve used the word “atrocities” to describe what some Palestinians do, as did the IRA and ANC back in the day.
Once again you demonstrate that you literally have no idea what you are talking about.
My respects to you CLK. You belong to the fine kind of people who understand morality is not a club membership, “Indians against cowboys” kind of thing
If there were more like us in this world we must share!
RCL
The Only Democracy ™ with The Most Moral Army™ shot a young Palestinian man with Down’s Syndrome, who has died of his wounds
Rest here.
#BDS
Richard Pearce
Nice use of paragraphs to make your point. This part I can understand and can address (what you said after that was senseless):
“……Love the circularity of you claiming in one post that the Israeli regime doesn’t have Apartheid laws, then responding to me pointing out the Apartheid laws that the regime relies on with a screed of ‘justifications’ for the Apartheid laws without admitting that they are Apartheid laws, then, when I point out that your failure to admit the Apartheid nature of those laws negates your attempts to justify them, at which point you state that there are no Apartheid laws…….”
You like being clever, but unless you can show that Israel has a system of laws which separate the populations by race (which defines apartheid), then your argument is wrong. No amount of twisting the refugee problem can change that fact. Israel has land and immigration laws which favor Jews only because they are a small minority world-wide. The laws are discriminatory, but don’t define apartheid. The Jewish state provides homes for the Jewish people for the same reasons as in the 1880s. Applying “apartheid” to Israel is strictly used for propaganda purposes by the radical left and far right to delegitimize the Jewish state.
Apartheid South Africa was a system of legal separation. Laws were passed to enforce the separation of races. From Wikipedia:
1. The Prohibition of Mixed Marriages Act of 1949 prohibited marriage between persons of different races
2. the Immorality Act of 1950 made sexual relations with a person of a different race a criminal offence.
3 The Population Registration Act of 1950 formalised racial classification and introduced an identity card for all persons over the age of eighteen, specifying their racial group.
4. Also in 1950 the Group Areas Act partitioned the country into areas allocated to different racial groups. This law was the basis upon which political and social separation was constructed.
5. The Bantu Authorities Act of 1951 created separate government structures for blacks and was the first piece of legislation established to support the government’s plan of separate development in the Bantustans.
6. The Reservation of Separate Amenities Act of 1953 prohibited people of different races from using the same public amenities, such as restaurants, public swimming pools, and restrooms.
7. An act of 1956 formalised racial discrimination in employment
8. in 1958 the Promotion of Black Self-Government Act of 1958 entrenched the National Party’s policy of nominally independent “homelands” for black people. So-called “self?governing Bantu units” were proposed, which would have devolved administrative powers, with the promise later of autonomy and self-government.
9. In 1953, the Bantu Education Act crafted a separate system of education for African students and in 1959 separate universities were created for blacks, coloureds and Indians. Existing universities were not permitted to enroll new black students.
10. The Black Homeland Citizenship Act of 1970 marked a new phase in the Bantustan strategy. It changed the status of the black so that they were no longer citizens of South Africa, but became citizens of one of the ten autonomous territories. The aim was to ensure whites became the demographic majority within South Africa by having all ten Bantustans choose “independence”.
These laws are obviously not present in Israel. In addition Benjamen Pogrund writes at the Guardian:
“……I have now lived in Israel for 17 years, doing what I can to promote dialogue across lines of division. To an extent that I believe is rare, I straddle both societies. I know Israel today – and I knew apartheid up close. And put simply, there is no comparison between Israel and apartheid.
The Arabs of Israel are full citizens. Crucially, they have the vote and Israeli Arab MPs sit in parliament. An Arab judge sits on the country’s highest court; an Arab is chief surgeon at a leading hospital; an Arab commands a brigade of the Israeli army; others head university departments. Arab and Jewish babies are born in the same delivery rooms, attended by the same doctors and nurses, and mothers recover in adjoining beds. Jews and Arabs travel on the same trains, taxis and – yes – buses. Universities, theatres, cinemas, beaches and restaurants are open to all……..”
Israeli Arabs clearly face discrimination and racism, but that doesn’t define apartheid. So go ahead and keep propagating lies about “apartheid Israel”. I have been seeing those same lies for decades and it has never gained any traction because the designation is used for political purposes to undermine the legitimacy of Israel. There is no applicability to Israel.
Thanks.
A religious test is in violation of all democratic principles, by any rational standard – a state that pursues such a discriminatory policy cannot call itself a ‘democracy’ with a straight face. This is just as true for the state of Israel as it is for the state of Iran or the state of Saudi Arabia.
Furthermore, when that discrimination is extended to so-called ‘occupied territories’ for the simple reason that if all Palestinians were allowed to vote in Israeli elections, they might elect a Muslim-majority Parliament or a Muslim prime minister, that is indeed apartheid. Your claim that ‘religious apartheid’ is somehow fundamentally different from ‘racial apartheid’ is meaningless semantics.
There after all are dozens of minority groups around the world; the claim that each minority needs its own state with highly discriminatory “land and immigration laws” is nonsense.
As Zionist rhetoric about “the Palestinian cancer” reveals, there is an entrenched hatred for non-Jews inherent in Zionism, just as there is an entrenched hatred for non-whites in KKK ideology, and entrenched hatred for ‘non-Aryans’ in Nazi ideology – they all spring from the same root. People with such beliefs hate the idea of multicultural societies where different races and religious groups live peacefully side by side without conflict.
In fact, the Zionist leaders understand this very well and try to use hatred and fear of ‘the other’ as the means of keeping and holding political power, just as Hitler did. In contrast, consider the Jews who have rejected this ideology and returned to Europe and increased the Jewish population to where in many areas it now approaches pre-Holocaust levels.
Zionists must hate these Jews with a passion as they are proving that segregation and isolation is unnecessary; isn’t this why the state of Israel has absolutely refused to finance the reconstruction of synagogues across Europe, particularly in the ex-Soviet states?
Curiously, Israel’s government refused to send any representatives to celebrate the reopening of this synagogue – care to explain why? I think I can – Zionists are fundamentally opposed to multicultural society, they want segregation, they want fear and hate. What’s the other choice?
http://forward.com/news/214230/why-are-jews-supporting-a-german-right-wing-moveme/
The BDS movement is not anti-Jewish, it’s anti-Zionist; it supports the rational Jewish population of Israel who wants to end the right-wing hate and choose a multicultural society with equal rights for all people.
I have a graphic at BBSNews that I use to illustrate what a foolish argument you are making. For fully 72% of Israel’s life as a state, it has carried out an illegal occupation of the neighboring state of Palestine, recognized by 138 nations and the Vatican and counting.
For you to callously leave out the fact that for three-quarters of Israel’s life it has been using state terror and its military to impose land and resource theft against a largely defenseless indigenous population is not just wrong but also criminal..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osAmR3gaPKg
WATCH: Israel Cuts Off Water to West Bank During Ramadan
Press TV
Israel claims that a pipe broke.
You know what Jack
I don’t believe a word Israel says…
so please just pass me by
As Mona pointed-out, “Many of us here have long experience of craigsummers and know his fallacious and dishonest nonsense for what it is.”
Richard Pearce captured the essence of that long experience succinctly in his post to CraigSummers:
Encountering that level of intellectual dishonesty over and over after making earnest efforts at genuine dialogue can be a bit frustrating. Richard Pearce continues:
There are many more examples one could call upon. You aren’t the first person to start-out in CraigSummers’s defense – though for some reason or another, none of his previous defenders have stuck to their initial positions after any significant interaction with him.
Even so, none of that excludes the possibility that you are right. Maybe CraigSummers “has been nothing but polite and informative,” and we’ve been mean. Perhaps we’ve become so inured to the Intercept’s group-think that we’ve lost our objectivity and been unjust to CraigSummers. We need to be open to that consideration.
So please, stick around – not just to read, but also to interact and post directly to CraigSummers. Get into some of the exchanges he has with some of the regulars here. Whether you agree or disagree with what he says, try to have some earnest and open dialogues; immerse yourself wholeheartedly into some of the many threads in which he inserts himself and express what you think and why. Give your opinion and whatever facts you may have to back them; see how he responds and what you can learn.
If you do, then sometime in the not-too-distant future, I’ll resurrect today’s comments, and you can tell us if the experience has validated or altered your stand.
I wouldn’t mind having you prove me wrong, bobby d; you have my best wishes for success.
I have to disagree with that. When one has had extensive, long-term experience of a commenter, one is does not err in reaching a firm conclusion about him.
That said, if a new person shows up and wishes to argue that Craig is actually posting good faith, morally sound, honest and salient comments, and if s/he can demonstrate why — based on significant quotes from Craig, then, and only then am I required to reconsider. Bullshit about how “polite” Craig is doesn’t even begin to move the dial.
I don’t disagree with you Mona; not even a little.
As his long-time editor, I’m quite familiar with the excretement he produces, and my opinion of it remains at its nadir. The dial has not moved one bit.
When I say, “open to that consideration,” I am concedimg – tongue in cheek – that it’s possible,
in the same way I can concede the possibllity that one morning I may go out to find a unicorn has appeared in a stall. Technically correct, but there’s no evidence to think it will ever happen, and all of the evidence indicates that it never will.
Yeah, about that. To greatly increase the truth levels around here, I’d love to see Craig just submit his scribblings as drafts to you — in private — and then you can post the cleaned up version.
Me, I keep my mind open to the idea that Craig might post good faith, honest, logically and morally sound comments to the same extent I allow the possibility that I’ll find faeries leaping and dancing at the foot of my garden. But the unicorn thing works, too.
“……My advice: play hard to get. Really hard to get……”
“……My advice: play hard to get. Really hard to get……”
Ben Ehrenreich is being given space not only at The Intercept: POLITCO published an adapted excerpt from his book.
How Israel Is Inciting Palestinian Violence
BDS — the movement for justice for Palestinians — is going to prevail. When a mainstream, establishment, crappy outlet like Politico hosts the work of Eherenreich, that’s a huge signal of a changing sea.
A good example of how Israel’s government is using collective punishment and similar tactics against Palestinians is here:
https://www.mintpressnews.com/israel-punishes-83000-palestinians-tel-aviv-shooting/217088/
This kind of toxic attitude has infected the United States political system as well, with Trump’s very similar calls to block all Muslims from entering the United States – and Hillary Clinton is not much different, with her ardent support for Israel’s continued persecution of Muslims in Palestine, more drone strikes targeting Muslims in Afghanistan and Pakistan and Syria, etc. – one wants to focus on domestic repression, the other wants to focus on internationl repression.
Clinton’s comments on Palestinians killed in Israel’s attack on Gaza are eerily similar to Trump’s comments on Muslim citizens in the United States:
They are saying basically the same thing – all Palestinians in Gaza are working with Hamas, says Clinton, so collective punishment is justified. And Trump says all Muslims in the United States are terrorist supporters, so collective punishment is justified.
I don’t trust either of these presidential candidates; one has declared her fealty to Israel’s Zionists and is in bed with Bush-era neocons, and the other is a race-baiting blowhard who wants to persecute American citizens.
Photosymbiosis
“…….This kind of toxic attitude has infected the United States political system as well, with Trump’s very similar calls to block all Muslims from entering the United States – and Hillary Clinton is not much different, with her ardent support for Israel’s continued persecution of Muslims in Palestine, more drone strikes targeting Muslims in Afghanistan and Pakistan and Syria, etc. – one wants to focus on domestic repression, the other wants to focus on internationl repression……”
Targeting terrorists in Pakistan and Afghanistan amounts to “repression”, Photo. In fact, that is completely idiotic. US drone strikes in Afghanistan and Pakistan (Yemen and Somalia) target the Taliban and al-Qaeda. The Pakistan-supported Taliban are responsible for 70% of the civilian deaths in Afghanistan – NATO approximately 2%. Pakistan support for the Taliban along with providing the Islamists a safe haven on Pakistan territory has brought the drone war to Pakistan as well.
“……..I don’t trust either of these presidential candidates; one has declared her fealty to Israel’s Zionists and is in bed with Bush-era neocons, and the other is a race-baiting blowhard who wants to persecute American citizens…….”
Photosymbiosis May 18, 2016 (in support of Trump):
“………If it does come down to Hillary vs. Trump, a vote for Trump is a way of sending a message to the Democratic party that their Wall Street-controlled neocon corporate candidates are unacceptable to the American public, and that if they want to stay in office, they’ll have to change their tune…….”
As far as Trump, the fact that he’s gone off the deep end on Israeli-style Muslim/Arab race-baiting has ruled him out; nevertheless his suggested cutoff of funding for NATO and his rebuttal of the idiotic neocon’s policies in Iraq (which Israel supported) made him look better than Hillary Clinton for a while.
As I noted since then, the best way of dealing with this election disaster is to lobby Congress and the courts to act to reduce the power of the executive branch of government, to roll back the ‘executive privilege’ arguments that have allowed Obama to launch a idiotic drone war (that really only serves as a recruiting tool for terrorist groups) without explicit Congressional approval.
If you want to see the kind of repression Hillary Clinton supports, look at the Israeli military murdering civilians in Gaza and the West Bank under ‘collective punishment’ rules. Look at right-wing Zionist ‘settler movements’ stealing Palestinian land. Look at the Israeli government cutting off water supplied to Palestinian villages as part of their ethnic cleansing agenda.
Clinton supports Israel’s persecution of Muslims; Trump wants to persecute Muslims domestically. Not much difference, really.
And the drone war really is stupid; killing a few Taliban leaders here and there doesn’t change the fact that the Taliban control much of Afghanistan; they probably get a few dozen new recruits – if not a few hundred – for every woman and child ‘accidentally’ killed in a drone strike, and then they get a new leader – nothing changes.
The drone war was Obama’s alternative to Bush’s rendition / black site / torture program; no embarrassing Gitmo detainees who were later shown to be innocents rounded up on fake charges; it’s a domestic PR operation. In reality, we should just go back to the pre-9/11 policy of capture and trial in open court of terrorism suspects; that’s how the 1993 WTC bombing was handled.
Regardless, the facts show that Israel is an apartheid state that supports a repressive ethnic cleansing / resettlement policy in the West Bank, that it has no more claim to being a democracy than Iran does, and that it has spun into a far-right disaster that can only be addressed by Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions – the Israeli public needs to realize that they are not the victims here, and that their continued support for far-right Zionism is turning them into a pariah state like North Korea.
Once moderates on the Palestinian and Israeli side agree to something like South Africa’s Truth and Reconciliation Committee, in which honesty testimony by violent actors on each side – the complete truth – is exchanged for amnesty, then the violence will continue.
At first it sounded like you are against collective punishment, but then you sounded like you were in favor of BDS, but BDS is collective punishment.
Are you for or against collective punishment?
An official Israeli government policy of apartheid and repression is not the same thing as individual acts of violence, is it?
If the Israeli government ended its apartheid policies, then BDS would end, regardless of whether or not members of Jewish terrorist groups continued to launch arsonist attacks against Palestinians. Similarly, when South Africa ended its official apartheid policies, sanctions were lifted.
Apartheid? Where are the separate water fountains & bathrooms?
Why are there Arabs in the Israeli parliament & on the Israeli Supreme Court?
Clearly the immigration and land rights laws are apartheid in nature; and the continued effort to seize Palestinian lands and push Palestinians into exile so that “Israeli settlements” can be built there are apartheid in nature.
South African apartheid was not identical to Israeli apartheid, but the general theme – promoting the rights of one group while denying those rights to another group – is the same.
Apartheid means separation.
None of what you mention involves separation so they’re not apartheid.
Omar Barghouti, the founder of BDS, stated that ending the Israeli occupation in the West Bank will not end the BDS movement actions—since the majority of Palestinians are refugees who live in exile and have a right to return.[14]
Why do Jews have the ‘right to return’ to Israel – while Palestinians do not? If that’s not different treatment based on an apartheid separation, what is? Particularly when Palestinians have a family history in the region dating back hundreds of years, while European Jews do not?
At least you can agree that real democracies don’t have ‘religious tests’ on such issues?
When Jews fled to Palestine to avoid the gas chambers, no one acknowledged the Jews’ right of return.
All countries have immigration policies, but we don’t call that apartheid.
Are the USA, India, Sri Lanka & Malysia not real democracies because they favor certain groups?
1. They had no “right of return,” as they were Europeans. We’ve been through this, and I’ve copiously documented the genetic and historical evidence for this.
2. The vast majority of Jews who had followed the colonial call to leave Europe and immigrate to Palestine did not do so to avoid the Holocaust.
3. Your bullshit about “immigration” is equally meritless.
Against a collective, a nation-state that’s enforcing ethno-religious supremacism and apartheid. And which continues to steal land, to torture, imprison, murder and commit myriad atrocities against the refugees remaining from its ethnic cleansing.
So it’s OK for Israel to have collective punishment against Palestinians because the Palestinian governments commit atrocities against Israelis?
With regards to your last paragraph,which is Clinton and which is Trump? I’m confused?! LOL….joking. Sorry, couldn’t resist. ;)
It grows harder and harder to tell the difference between the neoliberal Democrats and the neoconservative Republicans – but it’d be even more difficult if it was Bush vs. Clinton.
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2014/09/08/bill-clinton-and-george-w-bush-yuk-it-up/
There are, however, similiar images of Trump and the Clintons – their daughers are best friends, as well.
Aristocratic political dynasties, fed by the plutocratic ruling class. . . what is this, medieval Europe?
CraigSummers – not for the first time – regurgitates the standard MSM tropes fed to the rubes:
. . .and not for the first time, gets skooled on who planned the war and blocks an end to the horrors:
“About 10 days after 9/11, I went through the Pentagon. . .one of the generals called me in. He said, “Sir, you’ve got to come in and talk to me a second.” I said, “Well, you’re too busy.” He said, “No, no.” He says, “We’ve made the decision we’re going to war with Iraq.” This was on or about the 20th of September. I said, “We’re going to war with Iraq? Why?” He said, “I don’t know.” He said, “I guess they don’t know what else to do.”
. . .So I came back to see him a few weeks later, and by that time we were bombing in Afghanistan. I said, “Are we still going to war with Iraq?” And he said, “Oh, it’s worse than that.” He reached over on his desk. He picked up a piece of paper. And he said, “I just got this down from upstairs” — meaning the secretary of defense’s office — “today.” And he said, “This is a memo that describes how we’re going to take out seven countries in five years, starting with Iraq, and then Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and, finishing off, Iran.” I said, “Is it classified?” He said, “Yes, sir.”
– General (retired) Wesley Clark, former Supreme Allied Commander of NATO,
-March 2, 2007, DemocracyNow
“To undermine Iran, which is predominantly Shiite, the Bush Administration has decided, in effect, to reconfigure its priorities in the Middle East. In Lebanon, the Administration has coöperated with Saudi Arabia’s government, which is Sunni, in clandestine operations that are intended to weaken Hezbollah, the Shiite organization that is backed by Iran. The U.S. has also taken part in clandestine operations aimed at Iran and its ally Syria. A by-product of these activities has been the bolstering of Sunni extremist groups that espouse a militant vision of Islam and are hostile to America and sympathetic to Al Qaeda.”
– March 5, 2007, The New Yorker
There were attempts to prevent the awful civil war that followed:
“Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said that Russia and China are seeking to press the Syrian opposition to support peace efforts by UN envoy Kofi Annan and proposed a meeting of countries that have influence over the rebels.”
“We aren’t for Assad or for his opponents,” Putin told reporters in Paris on June 1, 2012. “We want to achieve a situation in which violence ends and a full-scale civil war is avoided.”
– June 6, 2012, Bloomberg News
. . .but the West blocked them:
“Former Finnish president and Nobel peace prize laureate Martti Ahtisaari said western powers failed to seize on the proposal [for the U.S. and Russia to negotiate a replacement for Assad that would be acceptable to both the U.S. and Russia]. . .He said that the US, Britain and France were so convinced that the Syrian dictator was about to fall, they ignored the [Russian] proposal. ‘It was an opportunity lost in 2012′”
-September 15 2015, The Guardian
“The point here is not that one side was slightly more or slightly less intransigent, but that by making the future of Assad the central question, and insisting on his departure, the Western powers, in conjunction with Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait, the United Arab Emirates and Jordan – not one of which is a democracy – as well as Turkey, which under Erdo?an has slid a long way towards authoritarian rule, made it impossible for a political solution to be found that would at least end the violence. It is in ways like this that the Arab uprisings were really hijacked.”
– July 16, 2015 London Review of Books
. . .and the US continued (and continues) to the fuel the horrific violence even though it knew its policies would lead to the rise of ISIL:
“Former director of the Defense Intelligence Agency Michael Flynn confirms to Mehdi Hasan that not only had he studied the DIA memo predicting the West’s backing of an Islamic State in Syria when it came across his desk in 2012, but even asserts that the White House’s sponsoring of radical jihadists (that would emerge as ISIL and Nusra) against the Syrian regime was “a willful decision.”
Amazingly, Flynn actually took issue with the way interviewer Mehdi Hasan posed the question—Flynn seemed to want to make it clear that the policies that led to the rise of ISIL were not merely the result of ignorance or looking the other way, but the result of conscious decision making:
– July 29, 2015, Head to Head, Al Jazeera
That CraigSummers prefers propaganda over facts isn’t surprising given the strong feelings for Syria he has expressed many times before:
I see a link to the reviewer’s book but not to the book under review. Here it is: https://www.amazon.com/Way-Spring-Life-Death-Palestine-ebook/dp/B017SCQKWY/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1466358595&sr=1-1&keywords=ben+ehrenreich
Israeli driver mistaken for Palestinian attacker beaten by Tel Aviv mob.
He was unconscious and had had a heart attack, when he crashed his car into a restaurant.
This isn’t going to end — Israelis are going to continue to commit lynch-mob attacks and murders, until the reasons driving Palestinian violence are meaningfully addressed and justice if done. And before any Zionist tries to tell me I’m justifying Palestinian attacks on civilians, do remember that the mayor of Tel Aviv very recently said much the same thing.
Zionist fascism, Part 7,965
‘Worship God By Nakba’: Jerusalem march celebrates Israeli occupation with messianic fervor
The video, filmed by two Israeli Jews fluent in Hebrew, is beyond disturbing. Several weeks ago fascist Zionists thronged through the Muslim Quarter of Jerusalem’s Old City, many of them prominent public officials. The virulent anti-Arab racism on easy and repugnant display is stomach-churning.
One young Jewish fascist is held aloft by his fellow haters, and screams, in Hebrew: “Worship God By Nakba!!”
“Nakba” is the Arabic word for “catastrophe,” and is what Palestinians call the Zionists terrorism and ethnic cleansing of them in 1948. With police protection that included clearing the neighborhoods of its Palestinian inhabitants on the eve of the Ramadan religious holiday, thousands of Zionist fascists thronged through the streets calling for the death of Arabs and celebrating Jewish superiority.
#BDS
Watch that video, folks. It will tear your hearts and turn your stomachs, but watch it.
If that’s not a devoutly fascist mob, there is no such thing.
Yeesh. Worse than Christians.
DocHollywood
I have asked you on numerous occasions if you believe the following statements made by Mona cross the line into anti-Jewish bigotry. Does Mona use principled anti-Zionism? You have so far refused to answer. You get another opportunity to respond:
Mona calling Adolph Eichmann a Zionist:
“……..And altho Eichmann explicitly said, “I am a Zionist,” he didn’t mean it. Not according to the way Shalev defines “Zionism” and would prefer you to define it……To understand why Eichmann could be both a Zionist and also have committed the atrocities he did, one must understand a very critical thing about the man……..”
“……..It’s a matter of the historical record that the Third Reich did, in fact, support Zionism. Other than Nazi symbols and flags, the blue-star flag of Zionism was the only other flag permitted to fly in Nazi German……”
“……..Zionists [Jews] have grossly exploited the Holocaust as their “permission slip” to commit vicious crimes themselves, primarily against Palestinians. Enough of that. The Holocaust was an abomination, but it is not the only crime against humanity, and I now advocate that it be removed from sacred status…….” My insertion in brackets
“……Money amplifies voices. If the people First Look is hiring are able to help shape the dominant narrative, I wouldn’t even care if they were funded by a Nazi — as long as said Nazi was as laissez-faire as Pierre says he will be.…..”
Mona (even) calling Mona an anti-Semite:
“…………Ten years ago, a Jewish friend told me that neoconservatives and the Israel Lobby were the most dangerous thing to arise for Jews in many decades. He noted that once Americans realize the U.S. is sending their sons and daughters into Middle Eastern wars desired by Israel and promoted by neoconservatives and the Israel Lobby at home, there will be rage. There will be fury about the billions we send Israel and the way our foreign policy and politics are warped by the Lobby. And it has come to pass — we are seeing that with the antisemitic Trumpites. They realize it all, and they are furious…….”
Mona repeating this claim to another poster:
“…….Yes, it’s definitely ratcheting up. Almost ten years ago, a Jewish friend told me he was certain that once Americans woke up to the extent the Israel Lobby controls U.S. foreign policy — including the neocon enthusiasm for sending U.S. sons and daughter to fight Middle Eastern wars that Israel and the Israel Lobby demands — Jews will suffer……..”
According to Wikipedia,
“………In 2002, [David] Duke traveled to Eastern Europe to promote his book, Jewish Supremacism: My Awakening on the Jewish Question in Russia in 2003. The book purports to “examine and document elements of ethnic supremacism that have existed in the Jewish community from historical to modern times.”[118]……”
Mona’s response (agreeing with David Duke)
“……..And about that, he has a great deal of truth on his side……”
“………When I claim Zionists are fascists, I am not calling names or waxing hyperbolic: I mean it literally, as a reasonably well-educated person would understand the term……”
Well Doc?
Zionism is based on a concept of racial-religious superiority dating back to the early 20th and late 19th centuries. That philosophy was adopted by groups such as Zionist, Nazis, the American KKK and others.
That philosophy relies heavily on ‘biopolitical rhetoric’ in which non-members of the superior group are considered as a disease or infection of the body politic, which must be excised. For example, consider these two statements:
1) “In his effects and consequences he is like a racial cancer of the nations.”
2) “There is no co-existence with cancer.”
One is from a letter by Hitler in 1919 opposing the Jewish influence on the Weimar Republic. The other is a statement by a right-wing Zionist group demanding more aggressive military action against Palestinian groups. Not very different, are they? (The first is the Nazi version, the second is the Zionist one).
These statements are not limited to fringe groups in Israel – leaders of the Israeli government have said similar things – see this from ex-defense minister Ya’alon:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/aug/27/israel
That’s the same Ya’alon who said he would prefer to see the terrorist group ISIS overrun Syria rather than see Assad remain in power (a sentiment shared by craigsummers) – yet who remarkably resigned because the new Israeli government was too right-wing, and who was replaced a defense minister by the far-right hate-filled Avi Leiberman, ex-nightclub bouncer. Is this who has control of Israeli nuclear codes, by the way? Here’s what Ya’alon said in his resignation speech:
If that’s not a good argument for Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions, craigsummers, what is?
Israel is no ally of American democracy, any more than Saudi Arabia’s hereditary dictatorship is – Israel is an apartheid state whose ‘democracy’ is about as democratic as that of Iran’s. Religious and racial tests for citizenship and voting rights cannot be tolerated in a real democracy
Thanks for your response. You can make a call on Mona’s comments if you like.
1. Do her comments represent principled anti-Zionism
2. Do her comments cross the line into anti-Jewish bigotry?
“……….Zionism is based on a concept of racial-religious superiority dating back to the early 20th and late 19th centuries. That philosophy was adopted by groups such as Zionist, Nazis, the American KKK and others……”
You do sound more and more like Mona all the time. Zionism evolved because of the violence, bigotry, hatred and discrimination primarily associated with the Russian empire in the late 1800s and early 1900s. For example, between 1917 and 1921, 50,000-250,000 Jews were killed. It’s not much compared to the Holocaust, but that is a fair number of people murdered because of their faith. That is certainly enough to motivate people to search for a safe haven.
Don’t worry photo, your remarks are just about par for the course at the Intercept – a cesspool of anti-Jewish bigotry.
Your tedious attempts to conflate anti-Zionism with hatred of Jews is on par with AIPAC’s efforts to prevent BDS from changing Israeli state policy, but are utter nonsense.
It’s like saying that just because one opposes apartheid in South Africa, that means one hates all white people. It’s a BS argument, and you know it.
By the way, one of the more curious, but also telling, features of Zionist Israel is the government’s refusal to support the re-opening of synagogues in historically Jewish areas of eastern Europe where the Holocaust took place. The Zionist agenda is to encourage Jewish migration to Israel to support the ‘population dynamics’ and prevent Arabs and Palestinians from gaining voting majorities.
Nevertheless, this policy is faltering:
http://www.hudson.org/research/9251-return-to-fulda
Why does the Israeli government hate the idea of Jews re-establishing their pre-Holocaust populations in Europe, craigsummers? It’s because it goes against their Zionist BS agenda, that’s why. Personally, I think it’s great that this is happening – it shows the resilience of Judaism in the face of a concerted genocidal effort by the Nazis.
And yes, Zionists have quite a bit in common with the Nazis, as those quotes (which you avoid mentioning), demonstrate. In fact, Zionists are willing to support fanatics like ISIS, who happily rape and murder Jews, Christians, Yazidis, Alawites, Shias and ‘apostate Sunnis’ because they want to see ISIS overthrow Iran-friendly Assad.
That’s pretty messed up, craigsummers – borderline psychotic, if you ask me.
“…….In fact, Zionists are willing to support fanatics like ISIS, who happily rape and murder Jews, Christians, Yazidis, Alawites, Shias and ‘apostate Sunnis’ because they want to see ISIS overthrow Iran-friendly Assad……” .
Maybe that is because Syria gave Jewish people a less than friendly introduction to the neighborhood in 1948, 1967 and 1973. Assad has supported Hamas and Hezbollah – two terrorist organizations with goals to eradicate the Jewish State. Israel still holds the Golan Heights. But Assad has treated his own people far worse than than Israel (because he can).
Thanks.
And then here he reveals exactly what he is…
“Maybe that is because Syria gave Jewish people a less than friendly introduction to the neighborhood in 1948, 1967 and 1973.”
“Craig” is a dyed in the wool Hasbara troll.
Zionism is NOT based on a concept of racial-religious superiority.
Jews had been persecuted for centuries in majority-gentile countries. Even when not actively persecuting the Jews, the majority-gentile countries refused to give refuge to the Jews when they needed it. There would have been no Holocaust if majority-gentile countries would have allowed in Jewish refugees who were escaping from the Nazis. The idea of Zionism was that Jews would return to their homeland & have a majority-Jewish country because majority-gentile countries had failed to provide safety for the Jews.
If a Zionist says something bad, that doesn’t mean that Zionism is bad. It just means that that particular Zionist is bad.
Charles Glass, this is a fine review of a book I’d already planned to read. Part of your piece brings to the fore the moral incoherence that obtains in so many liberal Zionists, to wit:
The liberal Zionist will often support ending the occupation and returning to the 1967 borders. S/he will agree that the ongoing land theft, oppression, and de facto apartheid are intolerable. But typically, they very much want history to start in ’67.
The actual catastrophe — the original Zionist sin — was committed in 1948. To be sure, this was preceded by decades of Zionist terrorism, as well as the very wealthy among them purchasing huge swathes of Palestine from absentee Arab landlords — and then establishing all the farms, businesses and neighborhoods as “Jew only.”
But the central, core atrocity — the ethnic cleansing that has left millions of Palestinian Arabs as refugees ruled over by ethno-religious supremacist Jews — that occurred in 1948.
No Palestinian would have been displaced if Palestinians had not been murdering innocent Jews.
Note to readers about craigsummers:
He’s a thoroughly rightwing Zionist, as well as a deep authoritarian, who embraces Bush/Yoo-style torture and defends any search, seizure or surveillance any Western government undertakes. Nothing he writes can be taken as true, especially about The Intercept, it’s staff, or many of us participating here in comments.
To take an example of his gross dishonesty and distortions from one of his endless screeds, below he writes, yet again:
This Israel apologist knows very well that the above is not true — it’s been pointed out by many here myriad times. The Intercept absolutely does practice advocacy journalism, but that bit about it’s view on Brazilian media is flatly false, and he knows it is false.
A casual perusal of those who’ve written here about the Brazilian media will reveal that the objection is that media in that nation — owned by five wealthy families — holds itself out as objective and neutral while it is anything but; it practices advocacy journalism on behalf of the oligarchical elite in Brazil. But will not admit it– will instead insist it is nothing of the sort and prattle about it’s great “objectivity,” “neutrality” and etc ad bullshitum.
Craigsummers knows this. He’s fully aware that this site’s writers are disgusted by the Brazilian media’s lying about what it does. But there is no ploy too dishonest, no fallacy left unexploited, for craigsummers.
Finally, very seldom do I reply to him and do not plant to do so in this thread. Whatever he writes about me specifically should not be believed. But I’m long done rebutting that endless stream of nonsense.
Hi -Mona-
See below, it’s possible to have a perfectly reasonable conversation with the user craigsummers – and even if he were a quote ‘thoroughly rightwing Zionist’ what’s wrong with that, all people have feelings.
What’s that saying – when all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail
Peace
Apparently you haven’t heard CS ‘hammering on’ about anti-semitism. You must be new here…so if you wait a few days…you hopefully see his hypocrisy and understand the years Mona has dealt with his constant aim at being a nuisance. I haven’t had that long…and now I just stream on past CS like passing up dog mess.
Please reread my comment. Many of us here have long experience of craigsummers and know his fallacious and dishonest nonsense for what it is.
I note you don’t deny the one (of a possible great many) distortion I demonstrated from this person. That’s what he always does, in long, long dense screeds in many threads over some four years.
Hi -Mona-
I did reread your comment – but when I’ve replied to craigsummers he has been nothing but polite and informative. Who am I gonna believe, you or me.
And thanks for replying as I’ve read hundreds of your posts :)
You again fail to address the one –of the many possible — examples of craigsummers’ fallacious and dishonest antics. Rather, you speak in generalities to give what’s basically a vacuous character reference for man. This all tells em you are not commenting in good faith.
Hi -Mona-
i didn’t know I was supposed to, the one you mentioned about Brazil seemed a bit off topic. I’ve read this site basically daily since the start and commented for over a year but I’m not commenting in ‘good faith’.
‘a vacuous character reference’ I asked him below a question and he replied and not for the first time and he was polite to me.
Oh, well then, And he probably is kind to babies and small pets. Nevermind that he chronically misrepresents both the writers here and many of the commenters, that he’s an avid torture supporter, a deep authoritarian, and a rightwing Zionist shill.
He is “polite” to you.
Jesus on a crutch.
Bye-bye.
Mona
“……..A casual perusal of those who’ve written here about the Brazilian media will reveal that the objection is that media in that nation — owned by five wealthy families — holds itself out as objective and neutral while it is anything but; it practices advocacy journalism on behalf of the oligarchical elite in Brazil…….”
No one is disputing that Mona. The Brazil media opposed the leftist government of Rousseff for political reasons – and if Greenwald, Fishman and Miranda understood this, then maybe Brazilians aren’t quite as stupid as you lead us to believe. Greenwald, Fishman and Miranda oppose the current government in Brazil also for political reasons. They all supported the Rousseff government (enough that the corruption in the Rousseff government was never reported by the Intercept).
Grreenwald writes:
“……To be sure, many former PT supporters turned against Dilma — with good reason — and PT itself has indeed been rife with corruption. But the protests were largely composed of the same factions who have long opposed PT……”
This was never reported by the Intercept while Rousseff’s was in power. The Intercept only became interested in this story because the left wing (leaning) government was being ousted in favor of the right wing leaning government – all couched in a concern about the Brazilian democracy. So the corruption in the Rousseff government (detailed by Greenwald) – which is a serious threat to any democracy – never was reported by the Intercept obviously for political reasons. In other words, corruption is OK among political allies. Now the story is reported at the Intercept in at least in 1-2 articles a week not because democracy was threatened, but because Greenwald opposes the “neoliberal” agenda of the (right wing) government currently in power which he also detailed in an article about Brazil. Greenwald also planted the idea – disingenuously – that the US might be behind the “coup” in Brazil.
If democracy really meant anything to the Intercept, they would have reported on the roll-back in democracy in the country on the border of Brazil – Venezuela (which they have not despite the employment of thirty journalists).
Thanks Mona.
https://theintercept.com/2016/03/18/brazil-is-engulfed-by-ruling-class-corruption-and-a-dangerous-subversion-of-democracy/?comments=1#comment-212423
Cornel West puts it into proper perspective at the DNC Platform Hearings discussing DNC’s unabated support for Israel (CSPAN)
http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=16568
Thank you…
Courage can never be under estimated…Mr. Cornel West.
Even though ‘we’ say the truth…’their’ ears are programmed and ‘bought’ by those who can buy and own. It goes on deaf ears. But to the people, let them awaken and be accountable.
This story comes from the Jerusalem Post this morning (this morning):
“………Ala Ghasoun, a Syrian boxer, quit Saturday the world boxing championship taking place in Azerbaijan this week for refusing to compete against an Israeli rival……..”I quit the competition because my rival was Israeli, and I cannot shake his hand or compete against him while he represents a Zionist regime that kills the Syrian people,”…….”If I fight against him, it would mean that I, as a athlete, and Syria, as a state, recognize the state of Israel.”…..”
No one is more responsible for killing Syrians than Assad. The Assad regime continues to drop barrel bombs on a starving Syrian population, and Assad (alone) made the decision to instigate the war against his own people protesting for political rights in 2011 – reforms that Assad had promised to Syrians! Assad the murderer is responsible for the war that has claimed as many as 400,000 lives – and he crushed the Arab Spring in its tracks. The regime is propped up by the Russians, Iranians and the internationally recognized Lebanese terrorist organization, Hezbollah.
In the most recent abuse of his power, the Assad regime dropped barrel bombs shortly after food was delivered to the people in Daraya (al-Jazeera):
“…….Western powers have criticised President Bashar al-Assad’s government, accusing its forces of dropping barrel bombs on the Syrian town of Daraya just hours after it received its first food aid in almost four years…….Assad’s forces bombarded the town shortly after the delivery, according to a witness and human rights monitors, dropping barrel bombs from helicopters as residents shared food…….”
Barrel bombs kill indiscriminately, and the Syrian regime dropped over 17,000 in 2015. Russia and Syria have been complicit in bombing targets in Aleppo which have all but collapsed the cease fire agreement signed in February. Just last week, Assad vowed to take back every inch of Syria. There can be no stability in Syria as long as Assad remains in power.
The agenda that the U.S. State Department is seeking in Syria has nothing to do with ‘stability’.
In 2010, Assad signed a deal with Iran and Russia to bring Iranian oil and gas to European markets via a tran-Syria pipeline. This is not the only pipeline deal Iran was pursuing that the U.S. State Department (under Hillary Clinton) was bent on opposing – the other one would run across Pakistan to India, and was called IPI. Clinton lobbied hard to block it and instead promoted her “New Silk Road” pipeline, TAPI (trans-Afghanistan pipeline), a concept dating back to the mid 1990s when Unocal and Bridas were promoting it.
In 2011, after the Arab Spring broke out, the U.S., Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Israel and Qatar viewed it as an opportunity to destabilized Syria and install a puppet regime that would obey the Saudis and Washington – so in poured arms and weapons and Saudi-sourced radical Islamic fighters, who quickly took over the pro-democracy movement and began launching attacks on the Syrian government.
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/06/isis-saudi-arabia-iraq-syria-bandar/373181/
The ultimate goal of the US State Department-Saudi-Qatar-Turkey-Israeli coalition is to ensure that any pipelines leading from the Persian Gulf across Syria to the Mediterranean are under their control, so that gas and oil from Qatar and Saudi Arabia (which the profits feeding Wall Street), not Iranian gas and oil, are supplied to lucrative European markets.
You should understand this, you’re a declared supporter of ISIS’s effort to overthrow Assad, aren’t you?
$ date
Sat Jun 18 23:55:24 EDT 2016
43 “status”:
41 “status”:”approved”
2 “status”:”hold”
– – – – – – – – –
“status”:”hold” … “name”:”barabbas
href=\”http://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/jun/18/al-jazeera-employees-among-six-people-sentenced-to-death-in-egypt\”
href=\”http://www.alternet.org/world/brain-dead-diplomats-why-did-51-
american-state-dept-officials-dissent-against-obama-and-call\”
“status”:”hold” … “name”:”Ricardo Camilo López”
href=\”https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reparations_Agreement_between_Israel_and_West_Germany\”
href=\”http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gatekeepers_(film)\”
href=\”http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2309788/\”
RCL
that was a test, that was only a test …
it may be a “four legs good two legs bad” kind of thing, but I still wonder why some messages are being “held” for more than a day
Again read though (the source of) the page json objects which format is:
{“ID”:…,”post”:…,”content”:”\u003cp>
… (paylod) …
{“ID”:0,”name”:”…”,”URL”:””,”avatar”:…},”date”:…,”date_tz”:…,”date_gmt”:…,”meta”:{…,…,”self”:…}}}
// __ barabbas’s payload was:
The tresspasses of US foreign policy supported and promoted by Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama cannot be underestimated.
Murder of journalists by a criminal regime of the US
Alaa Omar Mohammed Sablan and news editor Ibrahim Mohammed Helal
Hillary’s advocacy for larger wars that kill, paid for by American citizens but apparently rejected by John Kerry.
Brain-Dead Diplomats: Why Did 51 American State Dept. Officials ‘Dissent’ Against Obama and Call for Bombing Syria?
// __ Ricardo Camilo López payload was:
Language truly is an “amazing tool” b#llsh!tters prove it to us every moment they talk.
Just by reading the heading on this post I knew the first commenter would be “Craigsummers” and the second would be …, where is Mona?
No, you know what? Pretty much, I myself entirely am to be actually blamed for the plight of the Palestinians! OK, I will let Nazis (and even current day Germany) would share some responsibility, too!
Like in the case of “Craigsummers”, I wonder how could Israelis talk about “morality” and “legality”, “Howevers, ” when they are occupying Palestine? All the b#llsh!t they verbalize are narratives of abuse.
I wonder at times how is it that politicians manage to make people believe that they are “the heirs of history” as kings used to say that they were “the representatives of God on earth” and people believe Obama to be Jefferson’s great grandchild (Jefferson, the nice and smart guy he was, was having sex with his slaves, you know). What does the Israeli government have to do with Jewish people killed in the holocaust? What do current Israelis have to do with the seminomadic Hebrew people enduring enslaving abuse of Biblical dimensions? (Believing such things is a form of racism) To me the Israeli government and by extension Israelis are more like Nazis! and if you want to compound all that nonsense with more hard to believe sh!t, current German citizens who didn’t have to do at all with Nazism still pay some sort of retribution to Israel!!!
Now, talk about making sense and “Craigsummers” “Howevers, “”
The bad part about that being?!? At one point people will more clearly understand it is us against them. That in a quite literal sense we are all Palestinians.
Some Israelis were detained and sent home for happily partying as 9/11 was happening. It has been a great achievement by them that terrorism has metastasize to every corner of planet earth. Eventually people will “understand” Palestinians much better.
I would also recommend the book: The General’s Son: Journey of an Israeli in Palestine, by Miko Peled (youtube.com/watch?v=etXAm-OylQQ) and the film The_Gatekeepers
truth and peace and love,
RCL
“…….The bad part about that being?!? At one point people will more clearly understand it is us against them. That in a quite literal sense we are all Palestinians……..Some Israelis were detained and sent home for happily partying as 9/11 was happening. It has been a great achievement by them that terrorism has metastasize to every corner of planet earth. Eventually people will “understand” Palestinians much better……”
Yep, the Yinon plan is on track. I thought your first post was the better of the two.
1…Insert random comment about palistinians trying to kill jews
2…Insert random comment about Jews defending their nation from attack
3…Insert random HAMAS statement demanding all jews everywhere in the world be killed
Mix well and serve.
CraigSummers v CraigSummers v CraigSummers
Poor old Craigsummers, so misinformed he makes a flat earther seem up to speed. He contends that the Israeli regime has no laws that make it an Apartheid regime, ignoring that the laws that declare the majority of the legal population of Israel (the Refugees) to have no votes, no residency rights, and to not be citizens because they are not Jewish are the definition of Apartheid laws. But, hey, at least he pretends to be something other than racist (sometimes).
(On a serious note, the worst supporters of the Israeli regime, the ones who compare antiApartheid groups, human rights organizations, indeed anyone but the most fawning admirers of the Israeli regime to Nazis, they at least-for the most part- get it, that the ethnic cleansing and violent oppression of the Palestinians were and are wrongs. They just resolve the cognitive dissonance between supporting the regime that does those wrongs and their self image as good people by ‘justifying’ the wrongs by pretending that those wronged are so evil that wronging them is allowed. The irony that that was exactly the way Germans dealt with the cognitive dissonance between an extermination program and their self image as good people just flies right by them)
Richard Pearce
“…….Craigsummers……….contends that the Israeli regime has no laws that make it an Apartheid regime, ignoring that the laws that declare the majority of the legal population of Israel (the Refugees) to have no votes, no residency rights, and to not be citizens because they are not Jewish are the definition of Apartheid laws……”
First of all, acknowledge that there are 1.5 billion Muslims and only about 20 million Jews in the world. There are currently 50 Muslim majority countries in the world according to a Pew Poll. There is only one Jewish majority state in the world. Second, acknowledge that the reasons that Jews emigrated primarily from Eastern Europe was because of anti-Jewish violence, bigotry and discrimination. Additionally, the Jews were second class citizens within the Ottoman Empire occasionally laced with violence directed at Jews. Jews were always a minority population wherever they resided subject to anti-Jewish bigotry and violence from the majority. Zionism was the answer to oppression, insecurity, violence and bigotry directed at Jews for thousands of years. That was Jewish self-determination in a Jewish majority state. A Palestinian majority would return Jews to a second class status in their own state.
Third, acknowledge that the original 750,000 Palestinians became refugees directly because of hostile actions by Arabs and Palestinian Arabs after the UN voted to partition in 1947. Jewish people accepted the partition and the Palestinian Arabs and Arab nations rejected the partition with violence. Certainly, the ethnic cleansing was wrong, but resulted directly because of the impending Arab invasion and threat to the nascent Jewish state.
Fourth, acknowledge that 800,000 Jews were forced and/or intimidated into leaving the greater Middle East and were willingly accepted into Israel, whereas the Palestinian refugees were not allowed to assimilate into host Arab countries (Jordan being the exception). As a result, the original 750,000 refugees has ballooned to over 5,000,000 which obviously is a threat to the Jewish majority as well as an overwhelming number of refugees to incorporate into a small country. Additionally, there are only about 30,000 (+/-) original refugees. All of the others are offspring of the original 750,000 expelled. Whether international law applies to the offspring of refugees is unknown to me. There are probably very few test cases for second and third generation refugees since most are incorporated into the host countries and lose their refugee status. In addition, there is no mention of the right of return of refugees in the Oslo Accords signed by the representative of the Palestinian people, Yassir Arafat. The ethnic cleansing of the Jewish population is rarely mentioned by the “human rights activists” of the radical left.
The refusal to accept the Palestinian refugees certainly doesn’t mean that Israel is an apartheid state, but a small Jewish minority world-wide which would lose its Jewish majority status in Israel if the refugees were allowed to return. Jewish people would lose their right to self-determination. In that case, there may as well be a single state solution.
Thanks.
Thanks for showing, yet again, that you literally reject the facts about the Israeli regime. If you want to argue that its Apartheid is justified, the first thing you have to do is admit that it is Apartheid in nature, but a refusal to admit to that basic fact negates everything else you say. It is like someone trying to justify the assassination of Malcolm X, while denying that he was killed, the fundamental disconnect from reality makes the entire thesis meaningless.
“……. If you want to argue that its Apartheid is justified, the first thing you have to do is admit that it is Apartheid in nature……”
Disappointing response Richard. The reason I don’t admit that Israel is apartheid in nature is because it isn’t. There is not a system of laws which separate people on the basis of race – which is apartheid. Simple.
The reason for my response above was simply to give reasons for the necessity of creating and maintaining a Jewish majority state. The Holocaust was a vindication for the Zionist movement, Jewish self-determination and a Jewish majority state.
Thanks.
Love the circularity of you claiming in one post that the Israeli regime doesn’t have Apartheid laws, then responding to me pointing out the Apartheid laws that the regime relies on with a screed of ‘justifications’ for the Apartheid laws without admitting that they are Apartheid laws, then, when I point out that your failure to admit the Apartheid nature of those laws negates your attempts to justify them, at which point you state that there are no Apartheid laws. I once (on another website, during another brutal Israeli regime bloodletting of the parts of its population it denies rights to on the basis of ethnicity, which, despite being the definition of Apartheid is not Apartheid in your opinion) went down the rabbit hole of circularity with what appeared to be another of your ilk, just to see how deep it went (I’d post the entire section of the relevant document, get the response that it ‘doesn’t mention xxx’, post just the clause that mentioned xxx from what I’d posted, get the response that ‘it doesn’t mention yyy’, post just that clause, and get the response that taken in context, it didn’t mean what the clauses read, at which point I’d post the entire section again). It wasn’t until my varying language triggered an obviously computer generated hash of the English language (met every rule of grammar and spelling, but was not anything a person would compose) that I realized that the ID was a front for a bot. Now, whether you are a ‘Watson’ type program, a flesh and blood person faithfully following a script, or a true believer who’s faith blinds him to the facts is irrelevant, because the effect is the same. You’ll notice that I didn’t mention the possibility of being a human deep in denial, because my time spent working in the addictions field means I’ve interacted with a lot of them, and they were more honest in their denials of the facts than you are.
Thank you, very much, Charles! This is an unusually sensitive and informative review.
Dispiriting and inspiring, indeed.
Off, now, to order Ehrenreich’s book.
Beautiful read. Thank you!
The global focus on the Israeli-Palestine conflict has been extensive, so much so that, as the author notes:
It makes little sense to look at this in such isolation, as so many Palestinian rights advocates in the United States do. For example, one of the more memorable Noam Chomsky quotes on this is that, when asked why he doesn’t give similar attention to other conflicts in the Middle East as to the Palestinian one, he said “Well, I’m not Amnesty International.”
It is neither conscionable nor strategically intelligent to ignore the other regional conflicts on that basis, such as the assaults on Kurdish villages, for example, the destruction of Cizre (a town of >80,000 people) by U.S.-supported NATO member Turkey:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRLhyEdb3vE
Another example is the crushing of the Bahraini pro-democracy movement by the royal families of Bahrain and Saudi Arabia, with the tacit collusion of the U.S. government, in the wake of the Arab Spring uprising.
This points to a much larger problem across the entire Middle East, in which the U.S. government is propping up a wide range of authoritarian and dictatorial goverments from Turkey to Israel to Saudi Arabia, Qatar, the UAE and Bahrain, that have no respect for human rights, that operate as apartheid states or authoritarian dictatorships, utterly opposed to the principles of American democracy such as freedom of religion, freedom of the press, separation of powers, due legal process, etc.
Until the pro-Palestinian movement grasps this larger problem, and realizes that U.S. support for the Israeli apartheid state is just one facet of the disastrous American foreign policy in the Middle East, they will have little chance of fundamentally changing the situation on the ground in the West Bank or Gaza.
Ultimately that will require a diplomatic approach in which the major Middle Eastern powers, from Egypt to Turkey to Israel to Iran to Syria to Saudi Arabia and its GCC allies, are all forced to sit down at the same table.
Make no mistake, many parties don’t want this to happen.
For one thing, Israel would be forced to acknowledge its nuclear weapons arsenal and submit to IAEA inspections and transparency. For another, this would lead inevitably to the House of Saud and other royal families being forced to cede power to elected parliamentary bodies, much as was the case when Britain moved to such a system and abandoned rule by kings. In addition, Iran would come under great pressure to cut financial support for Hezbollah, which could be accomplished via an Israeli pledge to not attack southern Lebanon again. Finally, the Turks would be forced to confront their behaviors towards the Kurds, which is a much of a problem as the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is.
Of course, the short-term goals of the BDS movement (halting the illegal Israeli settlement program aimed at driving Palestinians off their land) should still be continued, but the larger picture should not be forgotten, either.
Regional stabilization should be the overall long-term goal; ultimately this will require the U.S. to remove its permanent military bases from the Middle East.
thank you, well stated. It’s important to not elect a Hillary or a Donald as President. Dr. Jill Stein, Green Party, is the best candidate to address this issue.
The tresspasses of US foreign policy supported and promoted by Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama cannot be underestimated.
Murder of journalists by a criminal regime of the US
http://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/jun/18/al-jazeera-employees-among-six-people-sentenced-to-death-in-egypt
Alaa Omar Mohammed Sablan and news editor Ibrahim Mohammed Helal
Hillary’s advocacy for larger wars that kill, paid for by American citizens but apparently rejected by John Kerry.
Brain-Dead Diplomats: Why Did 51 American State Dept. Officials ‘Dissent’ Against Obama and Call for Bombing Syria?
http://www.alternet.org/world/brain-dead-diplomats-why-did-51-american-state-dept-officials-dissent-against-obama-and-call
“Ultimately that will require a diplomatic approach in which the major Middle Eastern powers, from Egypt to Turkey to Israel to Iran to Syria to Saudi Arabia and its GCC allies, are all forced to sit down at the same table.
Make no mistake, many parties don’t want this to happen.”
So your proposal is essentially that the West should impose what it views as enlightened solutions, including the imposition of alien forms of government, onto the entire Middle East? Well I can’t any problems with that!
Sure they may grumble a little at first, but I’m sure there won’t be any hard feelings once you patiently explain how these plans are fair and benefit everyone. Yes, because if history has taught us anything its that enlightened Westerners clearly know how to solve the problems of the Middle East.
BTW is your last name by chance Wolfowitz?
Here’s a thought, how about not trying to come up with any solutions, since they will invariably all fail. And just behave like a rational actor, such as China, who somehow manage to avoid entanglements with the squabbling tribes of the Middle East while successfully pursuing their legitimate interests.
“The imposition of alien forms of government. . .”
Come on, you should recognize why the U.S. tries to install puppet dictatorships in the Middle East – it’s because they can be bribed with a few tens or hundreds of millions of dollars to hand control of oil reserves and transit routes over to the likes of Exxon and Chevron and BP and Shell, concessions worth many billions of dollars. Would a democracy go along with that? After all, $100 million, distributed to small ruling family, is wealth – distributed to a population of 20 million, it’s only $5 each.
But you claim that it’s a ‘conspiracy theory’ that the U.S. intervention in Syria had anything to do with oil pipeline routes, specifically the 2010 deal between Iran, Russia and Syria to run a pipeline to the Mediterranean to bring Iranian oil and gas to European markets (possible now that sanctions have been lifted). You say it’s conspiracy thinking that the real goal was to take over southern Syria to run a U.S.-Saudi/Qatari pipeline to the Mediterranean, possibly via Israel.
Really? What U.S. military action in the Middle East hasn’t been about oil? Is it also a ‘conspiracy theory’ that Bush and the neocons (who are now in bed with Hillary Clinton) invaded Iraq in 2003 based on lies about WMDs and links to 9/11, all so the U.S. could gain control of Iraqi oil?
I was referring to the idea of making Saudi Arabia, not just a democracy, but a parliamentary democracy! Where are these various political parties supposed to come from? As for Syria, give me a break, that was always a house of cards. Read the letter from Assad’s grandfather begging the French to stay and protect the alawites from the “muslims” or take the example of his father massacring 20,000 in Hama. It was obvious that an Alawite regime, with a totally discredited Bathist ideology wasn’t going to last.
Language truly is an “amazing tool” b#llsh!tters prove it to us every moment they talk.
Just by reading the heading on this post I knew the first commenter would be “Craigsummers” and the second would be …, where is Mona?
No, you know what? Pretty much, I myself entirely am to be actually blamed for the plight of the Palestinians! OK, I will let Nazis (and even current day Germany) would share some responsibility too!
Like in the case of “Craigsummers”, I wonder how could Israelis talk about “morality” and “legality”, “Howevers, …” when they are occupying Palestine? All the b#llsh!t they verbalize are narratives of abuse.
I wonder at times how is it that politicians manage to make people believe that they are “the heirs of history” as kings used to say that they were “the representatives of God on earth” and people believe Obama to be Jefferson’s great grandchild (Jefferson, the nice and smart guy he was, was having sex with his slaves, you know). What does the Israeli government have to do with Jewish people killed in the holocaust? What do current Israelis have to do with the seminomadic Hebrew people enduring enslaving abuse of Biblical dimensions? To me the Israeli government and by extension Israelis are more like Nazis! and if you want to compound all that nonsense with more hard to believe sh!t, current German citizens who didn’t have to do at all with Nazism still pay some sort of retribution to Israel!!!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reparations_Agreement_between_Israel_and_West_Germany#Further_claims_in_2009
Now, talk about making sense and “Craigsummers” “Howevers, …”
The bad part about that being?!? At one point people will more clearly understand it is us against them. That in a quite literal sense we are all Palestinians.
Some Israelis were detained and sent home for happily partying as 9/11 was happening. It has been a great achievement by them that terrorism has metastasize to every corner of planet earth. Eventually people will “understand” Palestinians much better.
I would also recommend:
// __ The General’s Son: Journey of an Israeli in Palestine, by Miko Peled
~
amazon.com/dp/193598215X/
~
// __ An honest Israeli Jew tells the Real Truth about Israel
~
youtube.com/watch?v=etXAm-OylQQ
~
and:
~
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gatekeepers_(film)
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2309788/
~
truth and peace and love,
RCL
The Israel Defense Forces demolish thousands of their homes to make the settlement project possible.
There is an evil person in Florida, a car dealer, who finances much of these settlements, and who precipitates genocide.
The truth for Eran was, “I didn’t stop doing the things I did, I just stopped thinking.”
I just stopped thinking. This is what happens on the way to evil. When your connection to other persons in the human network is cut, also your own mind has to turn itself off, and you become a zombie of destruction.
But it is inspiring, as he introduces us to people who have been beaten to the ground and get up again and again.
Getting knocked down is not a loss. It’s only when you dont get back up that you lose. And actually, always getting back up is a win.
The once free people of the US are also now living under occupation. Occupation of wallstreet thieve who prey and feed upon them. Occupation of fraudulent electorate who falsify themselves then betray them to assist the feeders. Occupation of the thought police who lie and spy to protect the feeders. The feeders are the printers of the currency.
It’s our planet.
This planet is MY PLANET.
You should say that too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VX2MKGHg_co
WATCH: This Old Man has been feeding Kittens for over 40 years near Masjid al Aqsa – True Message of Peace
Published on Jun 15, 2016
Amazing story about a man who has been feeding stray cats in Jerusalem for around 40 years. The level of love and compassion that he has for animals makes us think how much love and mercy we ought to have for fellow human beings. Truly inspirational video that opens our eyes to the message of love and peace. Quit the bloodshed and killing of innocent people around the world. Let peace prevail around the globe.
Help us make this video viral and share the love! Peace!
oil and water do not mix
oil sits atop water
oil is flammable
noreply@
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fa5i4VV3qH4
WATCH…’WORSHIP GOD BY NAKBA!': Annual Jerusalem march celebrates Israeli occupation
Published on Jun 16, 2016
The Muslim Quarter of Jerusalem’s Old City was cleared of its Palestinian inhabitants on the eve of the Ramadan holiday, 5 June 2016, to make way for a flag procession by Jewish religious nationalists, celebrating Israel conquering the eastern half of the city 49 years earlier.
Store owners, street merchants, and shoppers preparing for that evening’s celebratory feast were driven out of the lanes that fell along the route chosen by march organizers and approved by Israel’s Supreme Court. From a safe distance behind police barricades, Palestinian residents of Jerusalem watched silently as ultra-nationalist Jews paraded through the quarter, singing songs of praise to Yahweh and calling for the ethnic cleansing of non-Jews.
Tens of thousands of Israelis took hours to stream through the monumental Damascus Gate and weave their way through the alleys of the Muslim Quarter, eventually reaching their final destination, the holy Western Wall plaza, where they were treated to musical performances and a series of speeches by top religious and political officials.
Video by Dan Cohen and David Sheen
At Costco the other day, I saw a very appealing Israeli wine. I turned it down, the first time I have consciously done something in regard to BDS besides signing my name. I look forward to reading this book.
Be careful! When you act upon your moral conscience and support the BDS campaign, you risk being put on a U.S. government list which bans you from doing business with, for example New York state. Governor Cuomo calls this the ‘name and shame’ blacklist of businesses. Apparently many states in the USA are currently passing anti-BDS laws which blacklist businesses that have stopped doing business with Israeli companies. It shows you how totally controlled by AIPAC and the Israel lobby at the state level the USA has become. Imagine that: you educate yourself about the Israel vs. Palestine conflict enough to make the informed conclusion that the Palestinians are being totally screwed over by EU/Israel/USA, and you decide not to do business with Israeli companies as a means of peaceful protest. I ask you, governor Cuomo, how this act is “shameful”? If boycotting Israel is “shameful”, then when the world boycotted apartheid South Africa in the 1980s that is also “shameful” as both instances involve boycotting on the behalf of the oppressed group by a apartheid regime.
Even if I had a business and they blacklisted me…guess what…they receive no taxes from me. They can shoot themselves in the foot…head…a$$ before they control my every move.
BDS ISRAEL EVERYDAY, EVERY THOUGHT AND EVERY THING HUMANITY NEEDS TO STOP THE BARBARIANS. AND BDS EVERY STATE THAT MAKES AN ANTI-BDS LAW. STOP PAYING TAXES PEOPLE.
call to convene the new continental congress of by and for the rest of us
the electorate is dis-invited
Maybe we could keep paying taxes so we can maintain our roads just incase there’s an emergency like a fire, or maybe somebody’s kid gets seriously injured and they need a ride in an ambulance to the hospital. Would that be okay with you? Or maybe you have some other ideas how we can maintain our roads.
If you are being sincere…we can look to the past before “taxes” were demanded. But as long as you need the system for your breathing tube…then they have you in their pocket. If you are not being sincere…then ignore my comment please. Society has allowed themselves to be controlled by their governments in every thing they do. So when the government(s) become corrupt (in which they all are) there becomes a need to bolt…kind of like the ‘Brexit’ move that is happening in the EU. The history and stories of my Grandparents…the way they took care of their own…their neighbors…and their community. They came together to repair roads, houses, buildings…even when there was a disaster…they helped one another. There was no government intervention unless it was a massive disaster like a flood or similar circumstances. Now…EVERYTHING to include the morsels of food you eat is government controlled (traded, trucked, GMO’s, imported, exported, etc.). There was a time when there was a Law making taxes mandatory only when there was a war…does it make perfect sense that there has been perpetual war? We don’t live in a Democracy…it is a whitewash. And until the people are finally sick and tired of the mainstream fascism that has always worn a mask of Uncle Sam…will be the day when change will come. Also with the impending total crash of the hocus pocus monetary system change will come even faster. It happened before as with all empires and so it will again.
Disney World has its own road system, and government roads are supposed to paid for by user fees (I.e. Gas taxes, tolls, and car registration).
“. . . government roads are supposed to paid for by user fees (I.e. Gas taxes, tolls, and car registration).”
Not true. Federal and state highways are partially funded by such fees and taxes. All other streets and roads (and the remaining costs of state and federal highways) are paid for out of various general funds. The money for those comes from all the other taxes we all pay, whatever the type or amount of our use of those facilities.
In fact, a strong argument can be made that those who generate the least wear and tear, and take up the least space, pay more than their fare share for streets and roads.
Whose Roads? — Evaluating Bicyclists’ and Pedestrians’ Right to Use Public Roadways
The “supposed” part meant that’s the way it should work. Of course, back to this topic: my tax dollars shouldn’t be supporting Israel’s subjugation of Palestine either.
“The ‘supposed’ part meant that’s the way it should work.”
So, do you think only parents should pay for schools? Sounds like you need to do more research on this subject.
As for this topic: As long as the Israel Lobby controls our foreign policy, as it has for decades, there is almost nothing you and I can do to prevent our tax dollars from supporting the Israeli apartheid state and its settler colonialism and ethnic cleansing. We live in an oligarchy, and what we want doesn’t count for much.
Passing up that bottle of wine? That counts! Bravo.
BDS!
Yes, parents should pay for schools. Your article shows the elites get what they want out of government; nothing proves that more than the government schools to which they do not send their children. The schools produce an ignorant pool of worker-sheep and cannon fodder, when necessary. Didn’t the ancient Greeks say elections produced oligarchy but democracy was defined by sortition (the drawing of lots)? And yes, gas taxes and federal highway (slush)funds are “sold” to the sheep, but actually bought by the car companies and road pavers, as a “fair” way to pay for the road boondoggles.
Yes…parents should pay for “their” children(s) schools. Why should home school families pay for them? Why should childless adults, single adults, and elderly adults pay for them?
With that said…I believe that the “taxes” when under a logical and honest “local” system has been usurped…by design…without the public realizing it. My argument is for the people’s government be run on a locally rotating system where no one has the years to undermine laws, constitution, and lobbying. There is no more citizen government.
And add in the fact that many well-tax funded inner city schools are such disasters in even barely educating and most studies prove the most important factor in educational attainment is parental involvement and not teachers, buildings, funding, programs, etc., blowing myth in taxpayer funded education is needed to improve society overall. Much of the areas with the highest percentage of government funded students are societal disasters. Maybe too much government is not a good thing?
[“Maybe too much government is not a good thing?”]
Not a good thing…agreed.
Example: In my home town (as with most towns in my State) have figured out a way to extract billions of tax payer $’s to build new schools (which are not needed in most cases)…then turn around and put the tab ‘back on’ the tax payers locally. If that isn’t corruption…what is? Most folks I know personally are so fed up with the system…that they are home schooling. And why should they be taxed…when one parent is not working but doing the right thing, raising and teaching their ‘own’ children…some home schooling groups come together as well. The children that I have met from home schooling are so happy and grounded…not particularly caring what clothes they wear…or what competition says they need to uphold, to include their close relationship and respect they gain for their parents. I also have a friend who worked hard for his son’s education at a private institution…and complained at ‘why should he pay for another education that he is not responsible for’?
I just wanted to add…
I have seen a socialist type government…yes with all the free education, health care, and extra’s…it doesn’t come without very high taxes. So no matter how you look at it…the top gets rich…and that is what I’m against. There always seems to be a crook in it for Empire.
You are, simply, totally full of right-wing shit. You don’t have the slightest idea what you’re talking about, so you mindlessly regurgitate predigested slop of the sort that is fed to clueless and credulous listeners by American Hate Radio.
Or, maybe, your mind was permanently damaged by early exposure to Ayn Rand. ;^(
Yep, I believe in community, not communism–it seems to be a failure. If I were a right wing shill, why would I be here? And I am a fan of Murray Rothbard and Henry Hazlitt, not Ayn Rand, thank you very much.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/351586/Good-parents-more-important-than-good-teachers
There are tons of stories like that, plus that inner city schools are well-funded and poorly performing. And I listen to The Avett Brothers, school age friends, not Rush Limbaugh.
“Why should home school families pay for them? Why should childless adults, single adults, and elderly adults pay for them?”
You’re not quite clear on this “community” thing, are you?
I’m crystal clear Doug…
But please give me your input instead of accusing me of not being quite clear on this “community” thing…
I have a high regard for you here…but accusing me of something you are against doesn’t really have a conversation does it?
It looks Doug is just logically inconsistent: he is correctly against the bureaucrats of the NSA spying on the phone in my pocket but thinks the education-industrial complex bureaucrats and profiteers taking money out of of those same pockets and not educating children well is great.
Well…I leave the door to communication open…for whatever its worth.
I have never heard of Rothbard…so I’m trying to get educated with his libertarian philosophy. Thank you for mentioning. One thing is for sure…the system that is currently in force and is being usurped…is coming close to an end. I like Rothbard’s thoughts …and I will keep on reading as there is much to understand. I am pretty much far from politics…and am looking at the American condition through different glasses…
Good point; I was angry you was accusing me of things with no basis except his preconceived prejudices. A shorter book by Rothbard is “The Ethics of Liberty”. Rothbard was a realist knowing his philosophy wouldn’t be implemented but that those seeds of Liberty should be planted in the minds, either so people could make slightly better decisions or have a system discussed in case this one collapses under its weight of militarism and socialism.
After reading…(Wikipedia which is not terribly reliable), some things Rothbard supposedly was quoted as saying esp., his views on race, gender, and civil rights seem hypocritical of his beliefs of a libertarian type government. I believe with my whole heart that the race issues of our past that was never dealt with according to equality…brought about certain outcomes and leaders for very right reasons. His being against war is a contradiction with an exception of two wars. While he seems to have it right on some aspects…there are others I am opposed to. So…without any more oppositon to your particular views…I leave it at that. We can both agree about what we are witnessing today and its fruit.
He supports right to defense, including collective, so not all war is verboten. No one is perfect, but regarding the charged atmosphere of the civil rights era, he was making arguments against the state and for private property. A bigot can be a bigot on his own property, even if some of the public is allowed. I won’t try to defend some statements he probably made that may have been racist, though I have read much of his philosophical work and I haven’t found those kind of statements.
Sparrow, if you don’t understand why we should all pay for the services that benefit the community as a whole, I’m not about to explain it to you; you should have learned that long ago.
If you don’t understand why public education benefits all of us, the community as a whole, there’s a body of literature going back a looong way. I suggest beginning with Horace Mann
The irony is rich, considering the topic of Israel. Horace Mann pushed the Prussian education system, creating little state worshippers that just followed orders on the path to a final state solution.
Hi Doug,
I gave it a go mainly because you really don’t get my meaning about today’s so-called great institution of learning.
From Horace Mann:
[“Mann’s commitment to the Common School sprang from his belief that political stability and social harmony depended on education: a basic level of literacy and the inculcation of common public ideals. He declared, “Without undervaluing any other human agency, it may be safely affirmed that the Common School…may become the most effective and benignant of all forces of civilization.” Mann believed that public schooling was central to good citizenship, democratic participation and societal well-being. He observed, “A republican form of government, without intelligence in the people, must be, on a vast scale, what a mad-house, without superintendent or keepers, would be on a small one.” The democratic and republican principals that propelled Mann’s vision of the Common School have colored our assumptions about public schooling ever since. “]
Now, I ask you with regards to today and the horror we face when reading news (propaganda), or the horror we face when learning about these reprobate presidential runners and their toxic waste coming to the ears…do we not face what Mr. Mann stated,
[” “A republican form of government, without intelligence in the people, must be, on a vast scale, what a mad-house, without superintendent or keepers, would be on a small one.””]
Indeed I can witness what a mad-house on a VAST scale without superintendents or keepers (concerning the intelligence of common decency and respect) are. Too bad our forced taxes that are constantly being siphoned off for a better use in this AIPAC controlled tyranny. The greed that has taken the place of intelligence of common decency and respect is by and large replaced in these institutions…how everything is based on competition (is likened to killing)…capitalism (is likened to slavery), has become so great that it has oppressed populations and now has it’s own mercenary, gangs, and blood thirsty barbarians…and lets not leave out the high learning of this computer age that causes the common sense of the mind to disappear, kids and young adults can’t do math without a computer, they don’t know how to socialize, nor are they taught to respect the environment let alone an elder. I could go on but I hope you get my gist…because you wouldn’t be here if Mr. Mann’s Common School had been the light to the nations. But instead has created a Selfish Nation of Toxic Ignorance…
btw…I have spent many hours in searching and finding truths to the lies that were taught in these institutions concerning the history of this nation and the history of the world according to truth instead of dictation coming from a racist, fascist, egotistical set of so-called victors of so-called needed and righteous wars near or far. The worst in my later age was learning more hideous truths about our dealings with Natives, Mexicans, Africans and certain Immigrants…
I do not consider an enlightenment to a community the purposeful lies that are shoved in a young brain or the immorality excused when a nation of people are being exterminated.
Thanks anyway…
PS…
Did I leave out the fact (in which you came against) about the ‘certain’ inner city public schools that have this little problem of kids killing other kids for their M. Jordan shoes…or their brand name jacket? Have I left out the unmistakable fact that kids are passed on tests (not because they performed well) but because they perform well on the football field or the basketball court or the running track…or whatever will make them millions of dollars. Yes, for sure I have witnessed these things. I have witnessed that kids don’t even have to show up to school on time or at all…only to be passed on to the next grade since the juvenile detention centers are full. In other words…lets not have any more discipline to teach a child responsibility when he/she gets to be an adult less it becomes a burden once again on the tax payers. HRC once said…”It take a community to raise a child.” And I say…well that sure has been proven all too clearly in-your-face delinquent lawlessness…
@ Doug…
So good luck on your murderous Israeli protests…
cause we make ’em in the USA
He’s a Rothbardian. Those folks cannot be reasoned with. Rothbard’s extreme views against the protection of the weak from the strong include the “right” to starve your children:
Isn’t abortion legal? He is making a philosophical argument, using reason, knowing that this “system” would not be applied. So we can be reasoned with, but that doesn’t mean we do not have a logically consistent basis with which to begin discussions about compromise.
Even if it is true that he didn’t expect it to be applied, what the fuck?
I reject any premises in which Rothbard’s conclusions about the care of children are logically consistent with anything else. There is no moral reasoning with adherents of such morally bankrupt premsises.
Isn’t abortion legal? Is that morally bankrupt? Who is going to force someone to feed their children? The same group that forces me to feed the budget of the military-industrial complex and give billions to Israel. Is force moral?
there is a network of goodness on the planet
we cannot see it but we can sense it
it is a spiritual realm
where our souls dwell
or not
good going.
You meant it had an Israeli tag, right?
// __ US backs European move to distinguish Israel from West Bank
http://www.timesofisrael.com/us-backs-european-move-to-distinguish-israel-from-west-bank/
~
We sure can stop Israeli abuses to Palestinian people! Refuse to finance the occupation, boycott Israel!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boycotts_of_Israel
Aren’t they “‘the’ chosen ones”? Aren’t they erecting walls around themselves? Why don’t we help them raise their walls all “the way to heaven”, so we help them to eat “their chosen sh!t” and keep inbreeding!?!
RCL
Yes, Israel, though even better, despite that, very proud that it was Golan Heights!
Hi craigsummers,
Can you answer, have you ever been to Palestine?
I haven’t been to Israel or Palestine – or the Middle East.
a real patriot, eh craig?
a provacateur
you will not be born again.
Thanks for the reply
you said “I support Jewish self determination and a homeland for the Jewish people. I support Zionism and recognize the violent anti-Jewish conditions which led to the Zionist movement and the creation of a Jewish state. The Palestinians have the same right to self-determination as the Jewish people. ”
And people call you racist here!?! So much for tolerance – peace
Thanks. Enjoy your Sunday.
Mr. Glass
Any book that is promoted by the Intercept about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict deserves skepticism. This isn’t to suggest that the settlements shouldn’t be condemned; that there isn’t a human side of the Palestinians that needs to be told, or that the Palestinians haven’t been beaten down by the Israelis. All of that is true. However, an introduction by the author that begins with, “I do not aspire in these pages to objectivity,” invites a whole lot of skepticism about the story he tells. What facts does he leave out to enhance his narrative? How would some balance have changed the stories in the towns where he developed his story?
You get the feeling before reading the book that the Israelis will take all of the blame for the plight of the Palestinians. Ben Ehrenreich is obviously an advocate for the Palestinians – and his intention is to evoke an emotional response on behalf of the Palestinians. This type of “advocacy journalism” is championed by the Intercept (except when other media outlets use it like in Brazil). Maybe Israel historian, Ilan Pappe summed up (extreme advocacy journalism) best in an interview,
“……..Ilan Pappe, a history lecturer at the University of Haifa, freely admits that, in his view, facts are irrelevant when it comes to the history of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. “Indeed the struggle is about ideology, not about facts, Who knows what facts are? We try to convince as many people as we can that our interpretation of the facts is the correct one, and we do it because of ideological reasons, not because we are truthseekers,” Pappe said in an interview with the French newspaper Le Soir, Nov. 29, 1999…….”
This review is meant to make you want to read this book. The book generally gets good reviews, and if it helps bring pressure to bear on Israel for a two state solution to the conflict, then it will have helped serve a good purpose.
1) There is no ‘two state solution to the conflict'; all that the Israeli government is doing is promoting this lie in the United States while acting to expand illegal Israeli settlements, demolishing Palestinian homes, destroying Palestinian farms and orchards, using strategies such as cutting off their water supplies. This is just racist ethnic cleansing. The only realistic long-term solution is as with South Africa – allowing all Palestinians to vote in Israeli national elections, i.e. treating the West Bank as Gaza as states within an Israeli federation of states – Lebanon is a decent model for this.
2) Anyone reading craigsummer’s posts should note that he is a supporter of ISIS overrunning Syria, on the basis that Iran is worse than ISIS and more of a threat to Israel. This is despite the fact that ISIS is running a global terrorism program and has been responsible for massacring thousands of people, using women as sex slaves, etc. all across Syria and Iraq; never mind that ISIS conducts terrorist attacks in Europe and the United States; craigsummers still supports them. This is just part of an incredibly paranoid far-right Israeli perspective based on fear and hatred of all things Iranian.
3) Above all, craigsummers is a racist consumed by the desire to keep Arabs citizens in second-class status in Israel, without the same rights that Jewish citizens enjoy. Like the far-right Lehava group, and in a similar vein to the KKK in the United States, he opposes marriages between Jews and Arabs – just as the KKK opposed marriages between blacks and whites, and the Nazis opposed marriages between Jews and “pure Aryan Germans”.
This is just medievally-minded racial hatred and points to the many similarities between Zionist ideology and many other race-hatred centric 20th century ideologies, from Nazism to white supremacy to the kind of vicious tribal hatreds seen, for example, in Rwanda’s genocidal conflict of the 1990s between Hutus and Tutsis, or in the long-running conflict betwen Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland. But that’s what craigsummers is supporting here.
The U.S. should no more be supporting Israel in this agenda than it should be supporting Iran; neither Iran nor Israel has a true democracy, as neither respects freedom of religion or freedom of the press (i.e. see Israeli censorship of discussion of its nuclear program).
It’s unclear what craigsummers hopes to accomplish with his repetitive attacks on the Intercept as ‘advocacy journalism'; but the narrative of Israeli Zionists-as-victim that he attempts to promote here is utter nonsense; Israel is an apartheid state that represses its Arab population, both Arab citizens and Palestinian occupied non-citizens (whatever their status is, it is not clear), in exactly the same way that apartheid South Africa did with its black population.
Photosymbiosis
Wow, and I thought I had a mild response to this article. I have time for the moment to address 3) which contains the most lies in the post
“…..Above all, craigsummers is a racist consumed by the desire to keep Arabs citizens in second-class status in Israel, without the same rights that Jewish citizens enjoy……”
I support Jewish self determination and a homeland for the Jewish people. I support Zionism and recognize the violent anti-Jewish conditions which led to the Zionist movement and the creation of a Jewish state. The Palestinians have the same right to self-determination as the Jewish people.
“……. Like the far-right Lehava group, and in a similar vein to the KKK in the United States, he opposes marriages between Jews and Arabs – just as the KKK opposed marriages between blacks and whites, and the Nazis opposed marriages between Jews and “pure Aryan Germans”……”
Complete fabrication on your part. You are making this up. I know you cannot link to anything I have said that supports that contention. I am not Jewish or Israeli so you are just making nonsensical contentions without any evidence. I could care less who Jews marry.
“…….This is just medievally-minded racial hatred and points to the many similarities between Zionist ideology and many other race-hatred centric 20th century ideologies, from Nazism to white supremacy…….”
You are the one that is clearly the bigot, Photo (besides making the false analogies). Of course, this is consistent with your last bigoted tirade directed at the Jewish people:
“…….I mean, come on, tell us your opinion of Jewish-Arab marriages – you seem to have difficulty with that, don’t you? Zionism, like the Klu Klux Klan, like Nazism, seems to be horrified by the concept of ‘mixed marriages’. Pollution of the pure master race with inferior blood, is it?………”
Classic anti-Jewish bigotry.
“……The U.S. should no more be supporting Israel in this agenda than it should be supporting Iran; neither Iran nor Israel has a true democracy, as neither respects freedom of religion or freedom of the press (i.e. see Israeli censorship of discussion of its nuclear program)……”
Another completely fabricated opinion. Khamenei (Supreme Leader) is the head of Iran and is not elected to that position. He serves until his death. Candidates for President of Iran are limited to the selection criteria of the Supreme Council (half of which are appointed by the Supreme Leader). There are some elements of democracy in Iran, but Israel is a far stronger democracy than Iran. It isn’t even close. The press in Iran is ranked 162nd in the world while Israel is 102nd (Reporters Without Border 2016).
“…….Israel is an apartheid state that represses its Arab population, both Arab citizens and Palestinian occupied non-citizens (whatever their status is, it is not clear), in exactly the same way that apartheid South Africa did with its black population……”
False again. Apartheid South Africa was based on a system of LAWS which maintained racial segregation. No such laws exist in Israel. Israeli Arabs have political parties, serve in the Knesset and on the highest court in Israel (the equivalent to the US Supreme Court). Israeli Arabs have full voting rights, eat at the same restaurants and go the same Universities.
You are completely full of shit, photo. You just need to go to Gorky Park for the day and cool off.
Thanks.
Your attempt to appear “mild” is nothing but a transparent attempt to hide your underlying race-hatred, I think – a rather common theme among the pro-Zionist PR-savvy crowd.
Your ardent support for ISIS overrunning Syria, despite their atrocious behavior, is a solid indication of your willingness to see the world burn if it helps protect your right-wing pro-Zionist agenda – utter lunacy. Covering this up with ‘mildness’ is pretty creepy, if you ask me. A good example of what Arendt called “the banality of evil.”
Your lines are so tediously predictable – everyone opposed to Zionist apartheid is a bigot who hates all Jews; that’s the pro-apartheid line of the South African era, everyone opposed to white rule is a secret white-hater who wants to see all the whites massacred, etc. etc.
And you say that Israeli Arabs have full voting rights, eat at the same restaurants and go to the same Universities
But they can’t be allowed to invite Palestinian refugees to migrate to Israel and obtain full citizenship – that’s restricted to Jews, isn’t it? What is that if not a racist apartheid law? Let’s be explicit:
That is an explicitly apartheid concept; you claim it is not racist because it is religion-inspired? Sure; can a Palestinian in a Lebanon refugee camp ‘convert to Judaism’ and be admitted to Israel? Can children of a Jewish-Muslim marriage in the United States migrate to Israel? What if one child says he’s Jewish, and the other declares he’s Muslim – how does that work, then? You don’t care who Jews marry – unless they want to migrate to Israel with their married Arab partner, correct?
No matter how thin you slice it, craigsummers, no matter how carefully ‘mild’ you attempt to be, it’s still bullshit.
Israel is no democracy, it’s an apartheid state that deserves to be sanctioned internationally, from academics to businesses to govermental and military support, until it reforms its apartheid policies.
Photosymbiosis
“……..Your attempt to appear “mild” is nothing but a transparent attempt to hide your underlying race-hatred, I think – a rather common theme among the pro-Zionist PR-savvy crowd…….”
You can think I am a racist all you want, but you have nothing to document that charge. I really could care less if Jews marry Arabs, aliens or dogs. You are the one who wants to stereotype Zionist. So – to you – it doesn’t matter if you are Jewish and living in Brussels, that person is a racist because he supports the Jewish state. If you are Jewish (or non Jewish) anywhere, you are a racist for supporting Israel. You sound a lot like Mona – and that ain’t good for you.
“……..Your ardent support for ISIS overrunning Syria, despite their atrocious behavior, is a solid indication of your willingness to see the world burn if it helps protect your right-wing pro-Zionist agenda – utter lunacy……”
I support the overthrow of the Assad regime which started the war where an estimated 400,000 people have died. I just opposed US bombing ISIS because that only prolongs Assad’s grip on power. Regime change is the official US policy in Syria. I support bombing ISIS in Iraq. Here is what Amnesty International said about the start of the war In Syria (by Assad).
“…….Background: When army tanks recently rolled into the city of Dera’a in southern Syria and began shelling residential areas, the human rights crisis in the country reached a new low. More than 400 people have died across Syria since protestors calling for political reform took to the streets in mid-March. Hundreds of people have been arbitrarily arrested and detained incommunicado, placing them at serious risk of torture and other ill-treatment. Torture of detainees has long been common and endemic in Syria…..Amnesty International has repeatedly urged the Syrian government to rein in the security……The Syrian authorities have failed to take these steps and intensified repression. Consequently, Amnesty International has called on the UN Security Council to refer Syria to the Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court, to impose an arms embargo and to freeze the assets abroad of the Syrian President and his senior associates…”
Assad started the civil conflict and committed war crimes in doing so. Assad and their enablers in Moscow and Tehran have committed an incredible amount of war crimes including possibly as many as 60,000 dying in prisons from execution, torture, illness and lack of medical supplies (al Jazeera):
“Since March 2011, at least 60,000 people lost their lives to torture or to horrible conditions, notably the lack of medication or food, in regime prisons,” according to………the United Kingdom-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights………In a report published in December, HRW concluded that the Caesar photographs – a cach documenting the deaths of more than 28,000 people in government custody which was smuggled out of the country – suggested that the government had carried out crimes against humanity………”
Even the crimes committed by ISIS pale in comparison to Assad. The Assad regime has been accused of using chemical weapons, chlorine, barrel bombs and bombing hospitals (including Russian planes). When you discuss humanitarian conditions, your support for the Assad regime is hardly taking the moral high ground. He is a brutal dictator willing to murder as many people as possible to remain in power.
“……..Your lines are so tediously predictable – everyone opposed to Zionist apartheid is a bigot who hates all Jews….”
When you cross the line into anti-Jewish hatred and bigotry, I am going to call you on it – and you did. You are an anti-Jewish bigot.
“…….The document explains that by definition the “Jewish State” concept is based on ethnically preferential treatment towards Jews enshrined in immigration (the Law of Return) and land policy (the Jewish National Fund)……”
That is religiously preferential treatment, OK? Even you must recognize the difference between religion and ethnicity. For example, there are 50,000 Ethiopian Jews in Israel. Because Jews are a small minority world-wide, land and immigration laws favor Jews. You know that. It is not an apartheid concept at all. It is a Jewish majority state concept.
“…….Israel is no democracy, it’s an apartheid state that deserves to be sanctioned internationally, from academics to businesses to govermental and military support, until it reforms its apartheid policies…..”
You are certainly wrong about that. Israel is a democracy and the only Jewish majority state in the world. It is clearly not an apartheid regime. That is just propaganda. Israel needs to exit from the West bank and provide a viable state for the Palestinians. That is obvious.
Thanks.
Israel is no more a democracy than Iran is – it is a religious state that can’t accept freedom of religion, and its elections are as democratic as Iran’s are – still, both Israel and Iran are more democratic than that other ‘U.S. ally’, Saudi Arabia, which is a hereditary dictatorship.
You can claim that Israeli is not an apartheid state, but that is no more believable than Richard Nixon claiming that he wasn’t a crook. Some fine distinction between ‘race’ and ‘religion’ as the basis of the apartheid division – which is what your argument is based on – is just finely sliced baloney.
In a democracy, everyone gets the same basic rights – ‘religious tests’ are not allowed. That’s why Israel can no more claim to be a real democracy than Iran can.
you are condemned because you have condemned others as you condemned yourself
“I do not aspire in these pages to objectivity,”
My personal interpretation of this is that in certain situations, it is IMMORAL, not to take sides. Israel/Palestine conflict is one of those situations. No other country could get away with what Israel is doing with impunity in the 21st century…. all because of unconditional support of the USA.
ps I do not know what Ilan Pappe said but no one has to make up all the horrors Israeli govt has committed and continues to do so against the Palestinian people…..they are FACTS.
My apologies for the font of the text…. only the first sentence was supposed to be in Italics…. my error.
It’s fine to advocate for a cause if you choose, but it calls your credibility into question whether you are telling a complete story or leaving out certain facts to enhance your narrative.
After all, shouldn’t the truth be enough?
In the case of the horrors visited on the Palestinians for the past 68 years (and more), yes, Craig, the truth is absolutely enough.
For those who can handle the truth . . .
Thank you!
When you openly declare that you are not being objective, then this calls into question the narrative. It suggests that the truth is NOT enough. It may also imply that you are not checking your sources properly accepting narratives that fit your story. Bill Keller at the New York Times writes about objectivity in his response to Greenwald:
“…….The thing is, once you have publicly declared your “subjective assumptions and political values,” it’s human nature to want to defend them, and it becomes tempting to omit or minimize facts, or frame the argument, in ways that support your declared viewpoint. And some readers, knowing that you write from the left or right, will view your reporting with justified suspicion…..”
That is exactly how I view the work of Greenwald. There are some advantages to balanced reporting – and credibility is certainly one positive result.
Thanks.
thank you…
BDS ISRAEL…never forget
Poignant and action inducing.
Good read. Human bravery and courage is beyond any description. And LOVE conquers in the end otherwise where would we be? It is love, love of their land which keeps Palestinians go on–seemingly without end.