Congressional Democrats took the unprecedented step of conducting an actual sit-in on the floor of the House of Representatives on Wednesday, demanding that Republican leaders allow votes on gun control legislation.
But this unusually bold and moving tactic was undercut by the fact that its chief goal is a political gimmick that would do little to stop gun violence, while expanding the use of a deeply flawed anti-terror watchlist.
While sit-in participants are also advocating for expanded background checks and an assault weapons ban, their primary call to action is for a vote on a measure that would ban gun sales to people listed on a federal government watchlist — a move clearly designed more for its political potency than for its effectiveness.
And the government’s consolidated terrorist watchlist is notoriously unreliable. It has ensnared countless innocent Americans, including disabled war veterans and members of Congress. Nearly half of the people on these watchlists were designated as having “no recognized terrorist group affiliation,” according to documents obtained by The Intercept in 2014.
Matt Bors/The Nib
Indeed, many of those involved in today’s sit-in have themselves recognized these problems in the past. In a 2014 letter addressed to the Department of Homeland Security, lawmakers including Rep. John Lewis, D-Ga., the civil rights hero leading today’s sit-in, complained that the current process for appealing designation on the federal no-fly lists “provides no effective means of redress for unfair or incorrect designations.”
Some members exaggerated the measure’s potential impact. “If the laws had been in place that the Senate tried to pass in the horrific tragedy of Orlando, there would not be 49 dead. If the laws had been in place — no fly, no buy,” Rep. Sheila Jackson-Lee, D-Texas, said. “Let’s do this for the victims of the Pulse night club in Orlando,” intoned Rep. Suzanne Bonamici, D-Ore.
But even though Orlando shooter Omar Mateen was reportedly once on the terrorist watchlist maintained by the FBI, he was removed from the list before the tragic mass shooting.
House Democrats can force a bill to come up for a vote on the floor if they are able to get 218 signatures from members on what is called a discharge petition. A discharge petition for New York Republican Rep. Peter King’s version of legislation to bar Americans on the terrorist watchlist from purchasing firearms currently has 181 signatures. Ironically, King is notorious for targeting Muslims, having held hearings in 2011 accusing them of not properly cooperating with law enforcement to identify terrorists.
Democrats have no similar discharge petition on other gun legislation, such as Rhode Island Democratic Rep. David Cicilline’s bill to ban assault weapons.
Update: 9:20 p.m. ET
Progressive Change Campaign Committee co-founder Adam Green tweeted that his organization has been lobbying for a discharge petition for an assault weapons ban for a week: “Zero takers. [House Minority Leader Nancy] Pelosi is the problem. …Very frustrating.”
Top photo: Rep. John Lewis, D-Ga., and others sitting in on the floor of the House of Representatives.
Of course it is a gimmick; that is what the “two” party system does. Liberal has come to mean someone who pats himself on the back by pretending he cares. But in reality gives secret speeches to the “opposition”, white noise to the “allies” and leads Walmart, a company who costs taxpayers millions.
Meanwhile, they are rigging the primaries and the convention and ignoring the young people who will inherit whats left of the planet.
Enough is enough.
The restriction of legislation, regulation, presidential directive, court ruling or whatever and wherever the authority comes from gives the advantage and/or leverage to those who don’t get restricted. That’s un-American and just plain stupid.
Those who believe in ” gun control ” believe in being controlled. That’s un-American! Those of you are better suited in England or some other country that controls the population.
The Democrats need to put all DUI offenders on that no fly list. And Cars kill more humans than anything. If you text and drive you should be on that no fly list.
o/t @ photosymbiosis
http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2010/06/25/did-911-justify-the-war-in-afghanistan/
cc Glenn Greenwald
The Intercept does a good job of focusing on constitutional rights being violated, but seems to be for violating the second amendment rights of Americans? Why would the Intercept support disarming Americans and making them more vulnerable before the government it constantly demonstrates is corrupt and engages in unlawful activity against Americans? Seems strange.
Hi all –
Missed a day and just trying to keep up with all the articles here – whew!
But I just want to say here I was glad to see that comic by Matt Bors. We need him here more often :-)
Unlike the atrocitie of locking people up that are innocent, It’s not unreasonable for someone to be denied a high capacity firearm that is wrongly on the terroir watch list. Unlike freedom, no American really *needs* a gun. isnt that why we spend so much on our police and armed forces?
Under Bush, “progressives” were outraged by these secretive lists that anyone could end up on with no redress. Even Re. John Lewis was on the no-fly list for years! Now that they’re Obama’s lists (like Obama’s wars) There’s little opposition from the “left”, and even further attempts to legitimate these repressive means of surveillance and control. Sickening.
I completely agree with this criticism. Neither background checks nor the fly to buy rule will really matter. We must reduce magazine limits and limit access to killing machines. The Supreme Court left standing some strong state law gun control bills this term – so these actions would not violate the current interpretation of the second amendment.
This is a useless dialogue with one exception – if Pubs can’t even do this, they have shown their true colors.
AP REPORTS :
Sit in this:
AP REPORTS
CLINTON FAILED TO HAND OVER KEY EMAIL TO STATE DEPARTMENT
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_CLINTON_EMAIL?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2016-06-23-17-19-35
So make use of their zealotry to fix both problems:
1. Ban gun sales to those on the no-fly list.
2. Gun-rights advocates complain no-fly list is bogus.
3. Revise no-fly list with strict rules to prevent civil-rights abuse.
Problem solved, now move on to banning high-capacity ammo cartidges.
The author misses the underlying point of the sit-in: The obstruction of the will of the majority of the people in the United States by the GOP and their members in Congress.
The GOP received 2 million fewer Congressional votes in 2014 than the Democrats yet obtained a majority far in excess of representation. The GOP has stalled and blocked almost every attempt by Democrats to do anything. They are cowards that hide from the results of their inactions by being unwilling to put their names on record by voting on this, or any of the critical issues of our time.
The GOP are hide their heads in the sand, chicken shits. That the Democrats found any way to communicate this to the public is absolutely welcome, though surprising.
As far as the gun vote, the GOP won’t be happy until every fetus is issued a firearm on conception.
Liberals chant: “No hate in my state…”. yeah right… Was it not an employee of huff & puff post website who stated that it’s justified to attack and injure trump supporters. Was it not a liberal/democrat public official who said that we need to give rioters room to destroy and steal from local businesses with no consequences. BLM are a prime example of a liberal/democrat supported group that revel in violence and hate speech. liberal/democrats believe in freedom of speech so long as it doesn’t offend you. Liberal/democrat love to bring in as many muslims into this country without verifying who and what their history are. On top of that, liberal/democrats show no discretion and shove extreme life styles in these mulsim’s face and don’t even think about the possible consequences, Oh BTW – Orlando shooter Omar Mateen was a registerred DEMOCRAT. To sum up – liberal/democrat need to seriously reflect on their actions and take responsibility for the mess we are currently in.
Maybe you’re not familiar with the “Bat Computer”. This only impacts the meta-guilty.
Terror Watch list> Many people in white supremacist hate groups that are supporting Donald Trump are on the FBI TERROR WATCH LIST besides the radical Jihadist and, in most cases, are considered to be MORE DANGEROUS than foreign terrorist. Donald Trump and, the Republicans represent these types of people so, they really don’t want to stop ALL violent people from having assault weapons.
https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2012/may/extremism_052212/extremism_052212
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/24/domestic-terrorism-charleston_n_7654720.html
Don’t worry! If one day, you might want to kill a bunch of people that don’t look or, act like you, the Republicans got your back!
Voter Suppression> The less voter turnout (MASS SHOOTINGS, Flint Water Crisis, Iraq War) almost guarantees Republicans being elected. When MORE PEOPLE VOTE, Republicans always LOSE and, they know it,> http://www.salon.com/2016/04/11/the_gops_worst_kept_secret_more_voters_hurts_republicans_so_theyre_openly_trying_to_get_rid_of_them/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/news/republican-voter-suppression/
Our government has no problems asking internet companies to drop a dime on suspicious activities conducted on their servers…
Maybe we just expand the list of suspicious activities to include; gun purchases, ammunition purchases, talking about guns, writing about guns, posting pictures of guns, posting pictures of people shooting guns, posting pictures of people making shooting targets that include current/former politicians, posting pictures of people using inappropriate characterizations of people as shooting targets…
Or, we could just admit the truth that gun owners should just volunteer for 7×24 surveillance. It will save everybody a lot of time.
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/executive-order-requiring-mandatory-surveillance-gun-owners
So you’re in favor of a hearty police state??…or is your post satirical?
I love how all you “experts” out there are so sure that banning sales to people on the no-fly list would not reduce the likelihood of mass shootings. Why would you think such a thing? Could it be because you know guns can be purchased via the gun-show loophole without background checks anyway? Well then shouldn’t we agree to close the loopholes?
Also, why is it that people have no problem watching Syrian children wash up on the shores of Europe, but they can’t stomach the idea of an American “innocent” being denied their right to purchase a semi-automatic assault rifle after winding up on a terrorist watchlist? Our priorities as human beings are clearly just fucked.
This issue isn’t about guns. The issue is government control, government over reach, citizen rights, and the destruction of the Constitution. Further, there isn’t any correlation between Syrian children and the gun rights of US Citizens. On second thought, maybe I stand corrected…maybe there is a correlation. If Syrians had weapons to battle their government and those threatening their individual rights and sovereignty, maybe those children and their parents wouldn’t have been displaced.
Passing a background does NOT keep people from having guns. There is NO EXCUSE to not close the loopholes on the background checks. Zero. Are you worried you couldn’t pass one? We have the government to have standards of safety. Laws are to hold people accountable. I don’t think any jacka** on the street to be able to buy a AR15, without background checks, without proving they can responsibly lock up their gun, and prove they know how to use it properly. This is a little too cumbersome for you? People’s right to safety TRUMPS your right to buy a gun on a whim.
The issue is gerrymandering of the legislative districts of Congress giving the GOP a 50+ seat majority while receiving 2 million fewer votes than Democrats in 2014. This is why the Democrats are getting royally pissed, as they represent the majority, and even in mid-term elections, when they get more voters out to the polls, cannot manage to get fair representation… or even get the GOP Congressmen to go on record with a vote that can be brought to their constituents every second November.
So, then you must be ok some innocent people are abducted, tortured and put in prison without charges for couple decades or more because they might be terrorist.
If the bill were allowed to come up for debate, then that would allow debate on the no fly list itself. It’s a Trojan Horse. Lewis is shrewd.
Sadly, this is about misplaced priorities and politics. The horror of the Orlando slaughter notwithstanding, what about a discharge petition for a vote authorizing Obamba’s multiple undeclared wars, or prosecution of the financial crisis bankster enablers, or real action on climate change, or … ahh, gotta get to that MSNBC interview.
Seriously?! Or, guess you’ve already forgotten about the 20 children and 6 Teacher slaughtered at Sandy Hook by a white, 23 year old man. And, Orlando was a pure hate crime. And, your bizarre comment that Obama should be called out for ‘His’ wars?!!! Laughable. You’ve then ALSO forgotten about GW Bush, and 10,000 Americans killed in HIS wars.
Try to keep up.
I believe K. Smith is trying to point out that there are more serious, more deadly issues ([foreign wars across several nations with hundreds of thousands killed] which are perpetrated by the very government that is currently grandstanding to curtail portions of the Bill of Rights in favor of a policy that may or may not actual achieve their said goal reducing mass shootings) than a futile, if not dangerous, political show/vote to limit the power of our citizenry. Bush is no longer President, and can do nothing to stop what he started. Obama, however, *is* the President and has only used that power to further/expand Bush’s expensive endless war policy and domestic police state.
‘Try to keep up.’
“Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.”
(Mark Twain)
Sitting on the job AGAIN, doing essentially NOTHING but complaining as USUAL. I am sure they are hungry, as you can tell these people EAT a lot of food.
That’s why I am an Independent – because both the DNC and RND are CRAP. Guaranteed to make NOTHING happen.
The US debt went up 100% last 7 years – can’t wait to see the DOLLAR DEFAULT and be replaced with the PENDING GLOBAL currency Hillary Clinton will reveal elected or not.
Here banking friends have paid her $100 million to make $100 billion.
Bunch of liberal doosh bags
Something smells nasty like a Republican Hypocrite
— NLP (working to make “Republican” a negative adjective, so that it’s mention will sour any words, ideas, or thoughts that follow)
That’s not how you spell douchebag…douchebag.
On the upside.
When you say that the democrats have a secret list that they will use to take away people’s guns, then you won’t sound crazy anymore.
So there’s that.
Wow weren’t we taught at like age 3 that two wrongs don’t make a right? Maybe almost every poster here missed that one. Yeah, let’s continue to use a flawed no fly list to violate the rights of those mistakenly placed upon it and double down on taking their right to purchase firearms. Heck, let’s take it away from everyone! Good job geniuses. The right answer is licensing with prescreening including mental stability assessments prior to purchase (for a fee – you want a gun you pay and have to get retested and pay every 5 years). Then you pay a registration fee per gun every three years. Now don’t get nuts people. Like $40 for the license and testing and 25 per gun don’t get greedy!!! All proceeds need to be protected from being diverted to other govt programs and can ONLy be used towards research on smart guns, gun safety and awareness, etc. but bear in mind there is 100% absolutely no law that will prevent criminals from procuring guns illegally. None whatsoever. So keep your hands off my right to carry and protect myself (and others!!!) from the criminal element and those that went through the system but fooled it – yeah, there will be no perfect screening system either people. Now how about a license and test to have children? May stop the spread of crap parenting that’s pretty much everywhere.
“The right answer is licensing with prescreening including mental stability assessments[…]”
Who determines what constitutes ‘mental stability’ and what is the legal procedure for placement on said list and redress of grievances?? Let’s not forget that the head of the American Psychological Association actually worked with the CIA to utilize and justify psychological torture methods in cases of extraordinary rendition.
“[…] used towards research on smart guns[…]” There’s nothing smart about limiting a self-defence tool’s efficiency/efficacy.
Somebody someplace will complain that $40 will keep them from their 2nd amendment right to purchase a $700 assault weapon.
The only way I’ve seen that would have a reasonable chance at being effective and not running afoul of Constitutional scrutiny is to include “FREE” surveillance of all gun owners. I’d take a chance and expand that to breaking the seal on mental health records and other protected information.
The real issue is when dangerous tools fall into the hands of dangerous individuals. We know that over collection of “all” data doesn’t work. When we put 1+1 together and start looking for answers that resemble 2 the analysis is much easier. So, if we place all gun owners under surveillance we are filling in two important bits of information. 1. Who (the person with the gun) and 2. What (gun, purchased, ammunition purchased, gun sold, etc..) With those two important search keys… that mountain of data that is being collected just became much easier to search.
This is simple data analysis and correlation. Sign the petition and lets make this happen before another Sandy Hook, San Bernardino, Orlando, ….
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/executive-order-requiring-mandatory-surveillance-gun-owners
The turning of our land into an armed camp only promotes more and more violence to be used by those that profit from arms to further benefit from what they have promoted by turning our land into a shooting gallery. It is long past time for public safety with gun control that is as effective as it is in lands that in an entire year have fewer gun tragedies than the American people suffer in one day. The idea that one can protect a loved one with a gun in such a place of violence is absurd to the point that such a dysfunctional thinker will not be able to go everyplace at all times with those who he fantasizes he would be protecting. Such fear-filled individuals are a danger unto themselves and everyone around them and when one such frightened gun packer would bump into another how soon will one of them start firing away without taking time to ask and trust, “Are you a good guy with a gun?”
Murder rates have been dropping for decades, and gun ownership has increased significantly. Not saying connected.
It already is an armed camp, with at least one gun in private hands for every American citizen. Sure, high-capacity military weapons should not be sold to private individuals – and there’s really little difference between the deadliness of an AK-47 (fully automatic, illegal under US law) and an AR-15 (completely legal).
The point is that linking gun control to a non-judicial ‘terrorist watchlist’ is a terrible idea, really the worst possible approach to gun control – and the fact that House Democrats are allied with authoritarian tweakers like Lindsey Graham on this is even worse – in the end, it just looks like cheap political theater, not a rational policy.
Gun violence, along with all violent crime is at historic lows in America.
Among causes of death, gun-related causes are a tiny fraction and two thirds of them are suicides. If we exclude the suicides, in recent years, gun-related deaths have been approximately 5% of the lower range of the best estimates of deaths caused by medical errors in hospitals. That is, 20 people are killed by medical mistakes (in hospitals alone) for every one killed by someone else with a gun.
If we exclude suicides, three times as many people die in America every year from accidental falls than from gun violence. If we include suicides, the numbers are about the same.
Even more people die from accidental poisonings, but we can round down and say that those events cause three times as many fatalities as gun homicides and a few thousand more than all gun-related deaths.
In a nation with 300 million guns (that we know of) already in private hands, there is no gun-control regulation that could possibly make it even a little difficult for a determined individual to acquire a gun.
You, Sam Osborne, and the legions of gun hysterics like you, are the fear-filled, irrational participants in this silly, endless uproar that serves mostly to benefit the authoritarians among our rulers and the politicians on both sides who know they only have to blow their dog whistles and you will all come running and yapping.
We the people must be armed and ready to defend ourselves from government tirani such as when the NYPD twice raided my apartment without a warrant in the last six months after breaking its door, and thereafter stated “the landlord will replace your door”.
So you’d rather be dead?
Then address changing the list and getting Muslims who don’t belong there off the list, and other inequities in security enforcement that unfairly target Muslims. We need better gun control though. Anyone who has made threats against a group of people (i.e. against Muslims) or beaten and brutalized and threatened their spouse should be in a database that prevents them from buying a weapon. Semi-automatic weapons should be banned again. Is that not obvious?
Semi automatic encompasses many rifles and pistols that have been in use by an most don’t even look like assault weapons. Sorry banning is not the answer.
I guess this proves the point that Congress cannot walk and chew gum at the same time. Instead we are putting the left against itself. The issue of the terrorist watch list has been around for almost two administrations and neither Republicans or Democrats have made any attempt to fix it. Now that we can do something to stop the next mass shooting it becomes the issue that will derail this vote. WTF.
This useless sit-in will accomplish as much for stopping mass shootings, about as much as the useless gun control proposals.
The “do not fly list” is good enough for airplanes..it will be good enough for gun dealers. It will deter terrorist from buying a gun since dont know if they are on the list or not. Same like TSA..they are notoriously unreliable but they are there..
Make America Good Enough Again!
What in particular do you find so egregious about due process??
Essentially, the Democrats were conducting an anti-civil rights protest seeking to enact a law that would allow the bureaucracy to strip Americans of their Second Amendment rights without evidence in violation of their Fifth Amendment our process rights.
Fundamentally you are correct, and the “icons” there, like John Lewis, should really be called (had we any such thing as a “free press” in Amerika) jobs-offshoring icons, and lying-assed icons (his recent stories on Bernie Sanders which he had to “walk back” or begin to tell the truth on, as we used to say in Old America) — but in the end, it was all the typical political script: r-cons are the bad guys, faux crats (who have numerically worked to offshore far more jobs, but they are both guilty parties) claiming to work on behalf of the “citizenry” — who zat????
I notice that Driftglass, who’s down with anything that the Dems do, is all snotty with Greenwald for his attitude. Just another Lawrence O’Donnell.
If someone is on a “secret terrorist watchlist”, being turned down for a gun purchase is a good way to discover that fact.
And, of course, if one gets indignant, that “proves” that one is a terrorist, no doubt.
Republicans must stop bowing to terrorists.
Fix the list, get yourself off the list.
Republicans need to stop bowing to terrorists.
“get yourself off the list.” How, pray tell, does one go about doing that? I’m really curious to read your answer to that one…
Thanks GOP and NRA for enabling terrorist………
Come on, it’s US foreign policy, specifically the obsession with regime change, that has enabled terrorists – and the resposibility is equally shared by the actions of Bush-era neocons in Iraq and Afghanistan and Obama-era neoliberals in Libya and Syria.
The only place where a military intervention was justified was Afghanistan, and there it was flubbed, abandoned to the Taliban because Bush and the neocons and the oil corporations wanted to go into Iraq and seize control of the oilfields in 2003.
The Obama game in Libya was very similar; once the Arab Spring broke out, the US agenda was to put their preferred puppet on the throne after Gaddafi was gone – that’s the real story, not the Benghazi hype, how Clinton and Sidney Blumenthal were engaged in trying to put someone in Libya who would cooperate on Libyan oil:
https://wikileaks.org/clinton-emails/emailid/12900
That’s a description of how the preferred replacement, Jalil, was favoring oil deals for Britain and France which excluded China and Russia; Clinton backed that replacement. He lasted six months as Libya collapsed into chaos.
In Syria, a very similar game was played by Obama in alliance with Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Israel – they wanted to block Iran, in the post-sanction era, from working with Assad to build a pipeline to bring Iranian oil and gas to the Mediterranean and Europe (a deal signed in 2010). Obama’s coalition instead wanted a pipeline for Qatar and Saudi Arabia, so they financed proxy forces (the core of ISIS) to overthrow Assad, with the rise of ISIS as a global terrorist network being the ultimate result.
So can we get the House Democrats to sit on the floor to protest Obama’s foreign policy debacles, which have led to the rise of ISIS? I doubt it – not any more than House Republicans would sit on the floor to protest Bush’s debacle in Iraq.
Very much disagree with that … and we’re usually near symbiotic, photosymbiosis.
There is no basis in international law I’m aware of that would justify the invasion and occupation of an entire country to kill/capture an alleged criminal foreign national (in this case, Saudi) who may (or may not) have been protected by a marginally legitimate governing authority (i.e. the Taliban).
Basically, by refusing to extradite a criminal who’d orchestrated an act of murder that killed 3,000 people, the Taliban – Afghanistan’s de facto government – had made themselves complicit in the act. I think that is fairly clear under international law.
Saddam had done nothing like that, had no role in 9/11, and even though ‘pre-emptive war’ is illegal under international law, he also had no WMDs.
I think the international community also broadly supported the initial U.S. action in Afghanistan as a legitimate response to the 9/11 attacks.
The other military interventions were absolutely not justified and very poorly considered; but it’s hard to say that the Taliban were justified in sheltering bin Laden after the 9/11 attacks; it does come across as an act of war on their part.
Live: Germany shooting: Several wounded as man ‘opens fire in cinema complex’ in Viernheim
I don’t suppose it would do any good to stage a sit-in at the Reichstag demanding stricter gun-control laws.
There is no comparison between Germany and the USA the sheer volume of Americans being killed by gun violence is incredulous, Germany does not have this problem. The issue is not to remove guns from responsible gun owners but to ban killing machines not meant for civilians. Keep your guns , ban military style weapons created for maximum carnage. You can’t see the difference between guns for hunting and recreation which yes in the wrong hands are also lethal but still not as bad as an assault rifle. Gun laws limit the carnage and regulate who can purchase a weapon. No brainer. This is how America. Used to be when it was great.
1. Gun violence is a minor cause of death in the US in comparison with almost every major cause of mortality and two-thirds of gun deaths are suicides. But it doesn’t matter how many times you emotion-driven, statistically-illiterate hysterics are told this and shown the numbers, you just keep blathering on in your unfounded hysteria.
2.
You, like the rest of the gun-hysteria crowd, don’t have the slightest idea what an assault rifle is, so you base your judgment on appearance, which has nothing at all to do with the effectiveness of a firearm as a killing machine. It is you who “can’t see the difference,” because you don’t have a clue what the difference is.
3.
There is no evidence, anywhere in America or in American history that gun laws reduce gun violence or “limit the carnage.” Comparisons with other cultures are irrelevant (for reasons that should be obvious, but probably are not obvious to you). If you believe otherwise, show compelling evidence.
4.
That’s such a stupid statement, so revealing of pathetic ignorance of American history that it isn’t worthy of a reply.
Yes. Killing machines. Not target rifles. Not handguns. Who covets machines of mass-destruction? The answer begs a sanity test of those in power.
Is it true that those, whose tendency is to use deafening political silence to thwart social progress (American working people’s social agendas), only care for the trade and war agendas of their campaign contributors? Or is it true, that through vigorous, transparent and publicly aired debates, that the genuine desires of “Main Street” Americans get their voices aired – AND MAYBE a vote? Congress, make up your mind, now. Working solely for wall street interests isn’t working for me and them and the 99% . Congress, your silence is a tacit nod of approval of violence, a benign showing of indifference to the Common Good and our American Republic – THE PEOPLE”S HOUSE has been highjacked. Give it back, now. You in power have back-handed slapped our good nature – NO MORE!Why? Why does this indifference continue? Perhaps unintended, but murders by unstable people continue. Where is the condemnation and corrective action? An under-informed electorate cannot govern rationally. So, let’s have a damn debate. No more grotesque silence!
Looks like the hostage-taker may not have had a real weapon. Injuries appear to be caused by police use of tear gas, etc. At least German police didn’t wait outside for three hours.
Hostage-taker shot dead.
How do you pay the rent, Mr. Salzmann? Is this it, wallpapering TI comment pages? Where is your partner?
What “racist” nature of the no fly list was pointed out by this article? If you reply that it contains a high percentage of Muslims or people from the Middle East, you’re misinformed. Neither group is a race.
This sit-in is NOT about the “no fly list” or secret anything. Yes. Yes. We have a corporate owned government, of and by the oligarchs, trying with a scary persistence, to enslave the American working-class into a “dive to the bottom” – not to mention, tricking us into constant corporate media dis-information barrages, leaning toward perpetual wars. NO! This sit in is about having a debate, with a the forces of the corporate hegemony (Yes, corporate bluedog dems are no better)
If C-Span is not working right now, try a secondary UK feed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fw1X2NVHj0I
We American working people demand a debate and encourage the Good Gentle-people of the Dems to remain in the Congressional Well. We the People will occupy the steps outside until the damn cowardice of certain elements of our government relinguish control of our government back to us citizens by debating the killings caused by a horrific sea of guns, and some in the hands of the mentally ill.
The problem is that the gun issue, like the abortion issue, is one of the few perennial issues that Democrats and Republicans ever discuss in political elections. Far more important issues – so-called free trade deals, foreign military interventions, arms sales to despotic dictatorships, the bloated military budget, public education funds, infrastructure repair funds – are routinely swept under the rug by House Democrats and House Republicans.
In particular, this “no-fly, no-buy” game that the House Democrats are playing, in alliance with authoritarian clowns like Lindsey Graham, is not a step in the right direction. If they want to propose a ban on semi-automatic rifles with large magazines, that’s one thing. If they want to institute a gun licensing and registration system, like Australia’s, that’s another.
But expanding the powers of a secret terrorist watchlist that has no judicial process, and calling that gun reform? I mean, why not just round up everyone on the watchlist and stick them in the old Japanese internment camps out in the California desert, then? Why not ban them from driving cars, too? It’s a stupid and dangerous approach, and the real agenda is probably more about gaining some headlines in a political season, not about slowing gun violence.
The Democrat’s action here, in backing the secret watchlists, is just as big a political blunder as Trump doubling down on his attacks on Muslims after Orlando. It just makes them look ridiculous; and if you consider that the leader of this effort, John Lewis, has actively endorsed Hillary Clinton and her militaristic foreign agenda, it looks even more ridiculous.
No guns domestically, but expanded militarism and arms sales to dictatorships abroad?
How about instead we have a no-democracy & no human rights, then no arms-sales law? Sure, that would ban arms sales to the Saudis and a dozen other dictatorships, so that’s not something the House Democrats will sit on the floor for. What a pack of hypocrites.
It’s easier to try t control guns to show you are doing something than try to change our violent retributive society.
Of all the things ‘progressive-liberal’ Congressional luminaries could stand up (or sit down) for, a secret due-process-free gun restriction list issued from on High like manna from heaven with dubious practical effect is where they’ve decided to take stand!?
*of course, i bet they were all aboard the Obama/Clinton foreign policy train wreck during the past 7.5 years.
I can only guess that either they are truly that naive or they are so caught up in tit-for-tat Capitol Hill politics that they can’t see how the GOP has structured the game for them. Sure, they now get to say the GOP supports guns for terrorists, and that only they stood up for unarmored Americans against insurmountable odds.
But they will not grow their support by a single vote, since only brain-dead please-don’t-let-the-turrists-kill-me Democrats actually think that any of this will make the slightest difference in even bona fide “Islamist” mass shootings.
It used to be well understood on the left that the right took on the project of eliminating abortion because it was a Sisyphean job that would produce decades of votes before it came close to its objective. Of course that turned out not to be true, because clever state lobbyists found ways to undercut legal abortion access without going near Roe v. Wade. But here we have an identical phenomenon on the left, as dozens of congresspeople declare a dramatic war on gun violence by announcing their intent to do nothing of any import whatsoever.
Dumb much?
It’s called “Observation”, as opposed to your affliction of willful blindness.
Does a more armed society equal a more polite society?
https://mises.org/blog/fbi-us-homicide-rate-51-year-low
Maybe getting rid of War on Drugs, War on Poverty (which has helped contribute to breakdown of poorer families), and War on Terror are better answers.
http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/black-americans-are-killed-at-12-times-the-rate-of-people-in-other-developed-countries/
The way for this lust for watch-lists to work
to make the world safer
is to put the name of every person who votes for
republican and democrat candidates
on the list.
Terrorist abound in the faking U$A and
they and their allies need
to be denied access to weapons.
“Terrorist” should be Terrorists.
The Dems DID NOT embrace the no-fly list. They are attempting to break the NRA stranglehold, by its repub surrogates’ refusal to debate the issue of gun violence. Our lack of sane gun laws and the current strategy of “a moment of silence” when the next crime occurs, has to STOP! We as a people must start somewhere, somehow, and now! Thank you Congressman John Lewis and friends to get the ball rolling toward a just and determined fight against big money interests that make their money from mayhem and violence.
That headline is a product of some serious emotional contortion trying to rationalize contradictory evidence and beliefs. It hints at epiphany, but is ultimately scared of the consequences.
Undercut? Classic.
In the only sit-in I’ve ever seen where you can’t actually get arrested, these folks are attempting to look all populist by pushing for the use of a watch list that is seriously flawed. (These optics push the national security button about as well as Michael Dukakis in a tank. ) Rather than putting people on a list, we should take certain weapons off the market so there is NO non-military access to them. But the “demonstrators” here are not will to pay THAT political price.
The “watch list” of the United States government which up to date includes over 2-million Arabs, Muslims, and American political dissidents for persecution and assassinations is nothing but a hit list which is shared with all police and government agencies with instructions to target those named..
Because of my inclusion in the list, in the last six months the New York City Police Department has twice raided my apartment at gun-point without a warrant after breaking its door while other government agencies have perpetrated numerous other attacks.
The courts describe these attacks as “trivial” and refuse to take action.
Who are the terrorists ?
This is an urgent request for legal help in the incidents in which because of my inclusion in the federal terrorists-list NYPD cops have in the last six months raided my apartment twice at gun-point without warrants after breaking its door.
In the first attack they left a note with the name of the Regional Director of the Department of Homeland Security as the person that ordered the raid, while in the second attack I was kidnapped, taken to a hospital as a John Doe, assaulted and injected with drugs for 24 hours, and released with a diagnosis of delirium.
Lawyers that I have approached run for cover as soon as I mention the federal terrorists list , and they usually claim that that the case is not attractive because “no-one was shot or killed”.
If interested please contact me, William Torres, at radiante11111@gmail.com
From what I understand about Attorneys representing Targeted Individuals is they are intimidated / blackmailed by feds or Attorneys are given deals with more lucrative case’s (flipped).
Might want to stop calling the government terrorists from here forward sir… probably not helping your cause.
He didn’t call anyone a terrorist. He asked, “Who are the terrorists ?”
Read the actual words people write—you’ll get confused less often.
It’s called freedom of speech, and if you look at US government actions in Syria, where guns and money were ferried to groups that formed the nucleus of ISIS as part of the government’s idiotic Syrian regime change program, then you really do have to ask why the FBI isn’t charging members of the Obama Administration, from the CIA to the State Department, as well as our “allies” in Turkey and Saudi Arabia, with providing material support for terrorism.
This is yet another reason why the non-judicial “terrorist watch list” is nonsense.
Funny how Mr. Jilani doesn’t even mention the civil liberties of all the victims of gun violence and their families. He doesn’t mention how other advanced nations have laws in place to prevent guns falling into the wrong hands so tragedies can be prevented and lives can be saved and how only Americans seem to think that’s abnormal or undemocratic. His argument seems to be — brown crazy people should have as much right as white crazy people to get their hands on dangerous weapons. Anything else is bigoted. No, Mr. Jilani. The point is no one should have a right to amass an arsenal. Full stop. If someone really wants a gun for hunting, or sport, or they work in law enforcement or security, they should be rigorously screened for mental health, criminal and other issues. They should then be trained in gun handling and safety. Even the slightest question about someone’s character or mental state should preclude them from getting a gun. That’s because public safety is paramount.
“Even the slightest question about someone’s character or mental state should preclude them from getting a gun.”
Ah, yes…and what you refuse to see is that, to too many people, your sentence automatically applies to people of color and Muslims, as opposed to Christians.
Nate, you’re proving my point by missing the forest for the trees. If it applies to Muslims or not is both narcissistic and a completely different issue. The point is to save lives. If someone is Muslim, Christian, a worshiper of Xenar from Planet X, or any other thing is completely immaterial. The point is Nobody should have a right to amass a personal arsenal. If you are a member of any of the above groups, and it turns out your co-workers and family are so freaked out by your behavior that they call the FBI, then NO you don’t get any gun, especially not a battlefield weapon. Again, where is your concern for the 30,000 plus people who will be killed this year because Americans can’t get their act together enough to pass meaningful gun reforms? It’s a lot easier to play Mr. PC policeman I guess.
So now the Democrats in the House of Representatives are holding a “sit-in” to demand a vote on the “No Fly/No Buy” legislation.
But Mateen was NOT on the “No Fly List”:
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-orlando-nightclub-shooting-live-omar-mateen-was-taken-off-a-terrorist-1465772737-htmlstory.html
Which means he would have STILL been allowed to buy the weapons he bought.
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2016/06/22/Omar-Mateen-bought-family-plane-tickets-two-days-before-Orlando-massacre/7781466603600/
So, the question is this: Why doesn’t the House concern itself with making the FBI “update” the “no-fly list” so it actually reflects individuals who are actually a threat FIRST, then have discussions about creating legislation for a “No Fly/No Buy”?
The sit-in’s chief goal is to paint the GOP as a party that refuses to do anything about gun control even after the shooting of 100 people in a night club. If there are problems with the watch list, then the GOP is perfectly able to point out how it is too large and doesn’t have much transparency. They can do that. They can argue for less government in that way. Then we can fix the watch list and perhaps compromise by reducing clip size or closing loopholes on background checks.
Or GOP can be the party that refused to act on gun control even when the bill was to prevent suspected terrorists from getting weapons, and surely if there was something the GOP want, it’s to never look soft on terror.
Moving?
These squalling brats move you?
You’re a pitiful little fellow, I tell you what.
I get what you’re saying here, I really do. I have another suggestion: there is a strong statistical connection between people who abuse other people (particularly their wives), animal abusers, and killers. How about we deny gun ownership to those people? You beat your wife, torture animals, you don’t get a gun? I think we do actually have the technology to sort that out.
It is very interesting that the United States is trying to destroy the Assad regime in Syria where homosexuals have been integrated into their society and Daesh is bent on destroying Syria partially because of Syria’s acceptance of homosexuals:
http://www.voltairenet.org/article192427.html
Why would the United States be so hell-bent on destroying Syria and leaving it , without Assad, as another “failed state” like Libya, open to be taken over by radical Islamic terrorists like ISIS/DAESH?
Because the likes of Hillary Rodham Clinton have vowed to take Syria for Israel?:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/hillary-clinton-destroy-syria-for-israel-the-best-way-to-help-israel/5515741
Wow talk about controlling the conversation. All those innocent people killed and injured in Orlando are now being used to have us go on and on about whatever polarizes us, guns, gun rights, LLGBT issues, and how to remove the terrorists from under our covers at night.
And the usurers, amoral war worshipers, vampires controlling our healthcare system, modern day prison for profit slave masters, foreign purchasers of our politicians can relax for a while undisturbed until the next time they feel the need to use something tragic to divide and conquer the masses.
I think now the latest meme is: LGBTQ.
Lesbians, Gays, Bi-sexuals, Transgenders and Queers.
I am pretty sure I saw that today at Truthdig.
Next is LGBTQP, kek.
“vampires controlling our healthcare system…”
I knew something was strange about how they keep asking for blood donations!
‘Shit-in,’ more like.
i am curious. HOW MANY WATCH LISTS ARE THERE? (ie- one for each department or subdepartment, composed by private subcontractors, etc etc).
Honestly this watchlist thing is seeming quite nightmarish without the due process that America requires but dictators like sisi mon relish.
not being sarcastic.
By using no-fly lists to deny targeted citizens the ability to buy guns, Democrats are themselves undermining reasonable gun control! Creating secret black lists without the ability to challenge the validity of being put on said list is unconstitutional. Given that the NRA and gun advocates frequently state their constitutional right to bare arms as an argument against gun control, using blatantly unconstitutional means (i.e. secret government lists void of due process) to take away what is viewed as a constitutional right, creates 2 wrongs in the eyes of gun advocates. It also increases the collective paranoia among those who view guns as a necessary check on the rise of authoritarian government. In response these groups will probably buy more guns, even stockpiling them, in anticipation that not only that they may not be able to purchase them in the future, but that they may need them to defend themselves against an unchecked government that is taking away their constitutional rights. Paradoxically this increase the number of guns in American communities, the opposite of gun control advocates stated goals! The process is so stupid that it even makes me wonder what the alternative agenda is with these Democrats?
Creating a permanent class of dependent voters. Yet it is also the same group that loves the eugenicists of Margaret Sanger’s Planned Parenthood dwelling on the inner city, eliminating future voters. So I guess I don’t know what the plan is …
The plan is your plan. The one that counts. Of by and for. Just proclaim it. Like they did before. It’s the only way.
Yea, everybody got an opinion but few see the blowback, good insight. May of US take our oath to defend the Constitution seriously, whoever a secret blacklist is aimed at. If you do not have the right to face your charges before your peers, it is sedition plan and simple.
If the Democrats want a gun control law that might get some support from both sides, why not just go with a licensing and registration system, run the same way as state motor vehicle departments are run?
I can’t see why the gun fanatics would really mind, if the process for owning a gun was the same as for owning a car. So you have to take a written and a practical test to get a gun license; that’s how driver’s licenses work. So the gun is linked to the owner by its serial number, just as a vehicle is. That’s how Australia handles guns; what’s the problem with that? Yes, it would have cost money for states to set up DMV-type agencies for guns; so take the money out of the foreign military budget – for example, cut NATO’s budget to pay for it.
This terrorist watchlist nonsense is just lame political theater; the Democrats should be ashamed of themselves for doing this, when they could be promoting something that makes sense instead.
The government owns the roads, hence the authority to require a license and registration to use those roads. If you ever brought a gun to my home, I would require you to pass a test before letting you on my property. The government doesn’t own all the property–yet.
Wanna bet?
I guess through property taxes, zoning, and eminent domain they do have a claim on all property.
That’s a non sequitur. We’re not debating whether people are allowed to bring guns into your home.
Actually, if you really went all the way with the drivers license = gun license, you would likely get a lot of gun owners on board. But that would mean (1) possession of a license from any state enables you to legally own or carry a gun in any other state, and (2) no more “may issue” licensing regimes: you pass the test, you get a license regardless of your ability to convince the licensing office that you need it. I would bet that a majority of gun owners would be willing to go in for some sort of central licensing if they got those additional freedoms in exchange.
I’ve actually seen this compromise floated around a number of right-wing websites; but their general view is that those additional freedoms wouldn’t be palatable to the left.
A “may issue” licensing regime would be unacceptable for vehicles; however there’d have to be a procedure for revoking a license, just as there is for revoking a driver’s license; i.e. felony assault, etc. And of course a driver’s license is valid in multiple states.
It raises the question of whether to have a state-based or a federal licensing program, which is something that could be worked out.
“…what’s the problem with that?”
Driving a car is not in the constitution, the right to bear arms is, irrespective of how you interpret it. That’s the start of the problem but the real answer is that the 2nd Amendment has been raised to the level of religious worship and rational limitations, which might well be constitutional are treated as the equivalence of devil worship.
To ban people from a constitutional right without due process, which is what this laws sound like it will due, is unconstitutional and should come to a vote so we can see exactly who is willing to deny constitutional rights on the basis of suspicion alone.
In reality, someone’s asking for a vote does not mean that person is necessarily in favour of its passing, but rather want the right to vote on it. My guess is, however, that’s probably not why they are doing this.
So why can’t one mount a 0.50-caliber machine gun on a vehicle, Mad Max style?
Certainly a license and registration program for gun owners and guns falls under the “well-regulated militia” stipulation, that precedes the “right to bear arms” line in the 2nd Amendment?
Notice also that while vehicles such as car and airplanes did not exist when the Constitution was written, regulation of such vehicles certainly makes sense, as do driver’s and pilots licenses. Nobody would claim such licensing and registration programs were unconstitutional; although people might argue over whether it was the job of the states or the federal government to write such regulations.
yay! i was wondering when more sane people would start posting
“I can’t see why the gun fanatics would really mind”
that tells me this person is a liberal who has never even spoken to a conservative on the subject. the majority of the posters here appear to have no idea what team conservative thinks
team conservative has much in common with team liberal on this issue if one digs… lots of conservatives have issues with giving guns to people who have exhibited violence if there is a means to contest this in court
Have you ever met the gun fanatics with rooms full of ammunition and dozens of weapons? A lot of them have fully automatic weapons stashed away here and there. It’s not really any more fanatic than your average fanatical car collector. “Gun nut” is an appropriate description. Probably mostly harmless. . . For example, this guy:
https://www.youtube.com/user/FPSRussia
Nevertheless, why not use a DMV style system to regulate guns? Why not register all guns, as all vehicles are registered (although perhaps some exceptions for antiques etc. kept only in the home)? Why not have a process, as with drunk drivers, to suspend gun ownership licenses for people convicted of domestic violence, etc.?
Australia did this, and mass murders fell to nothing. So what’s the big deal?
Mentally unstable people working with the CIA/FBI to cause emotional fear in Americans, to take away our God given rights, will not be victorious. The left has abbandoned it’s LGBT fan club for Islam and Trump is gaining many new voters. You definitely do not sound like an American with this 6 year old mentality. Do you know cars kill hundreds of thousands a year, pharmecuticals kill hundreds of thousands a year, jobs kill people, nature kills thousands, ect……would you like to ban these things?
Hey, guess what? Governments have killed billions of people throughout time. Mussolini, Mao, Stalin, Hitler, ect….. They all took the guns because they couldn’t perform their exterminations (opposition) if the people had them. You sheeple need to read history to understand something. I’m sorry they don’t teach this in Public “common core” schools anymore. The Government wants you leftist stupid, so they can keep extorting from you, your votes, your taxes, ect, and the DNC said f*ck you voters, we will do what we want. Yes, Debbie Wasserman Shultz is laughing at you voting, you thinking your time or vote really matters to them?
—Questions to the left who fail to look at history or facts.
1) What is “Operation Northwoods”?
2) What was executive order 11110?
3) Who are the Rothschild’s?
4) Who funded Hiltler?
5) What was enacted Dec. 23, 1913?
6) Why does a Private Company print US $?
7) Who owns the Federal Reserve?
8) What does Ch7 verse 80-84 in Quaran say?
9) Do Islamist want Sharia Law instead of Constitution?
10) Why don’t we ban murder and make it illegal? ……oh yeah and drugs so we can eliminate those from our society?
And question 10 is for all you idiots that think banning something will eliminate it. All it does is open up a black market and creates more criminals.
-If you Liberals, Socialist, Communist, and Conservatives break off from these bullsh*t labels and realize that FREEDOM is the only moral way to live. It is a simple philosophy.
If you want to learn….please YouTube Doug Casey “best anarchist speech” or “Doug Casey and Phil Donnahue”.
I challenge anyone to watch these videos and start thinking for yourself.
——The only 2 laws people need to live by—-
1) Don’t aggress against anyone or their property.
2) Do all that you say you will do. (Meaning contracts).
-Other than this, all laws are immoral and should be abolished.
Here is what I am trying to wrap my American head around:
How can one try to get the job to be President of the United States of America when she is against The Second Amendment to The Constitution of the United States and she wants to take an oath “to PRESERVE, PROTECT AND DEFEND The Constitution of the United States of America against ALL enemies both foreign and DOMESTIC when she is AGAINST THE SECOND AMENDMENT??!!
Just sayin’.
It is impossible to oppose the 2A. One can only oppose an interpretation of the 2A.
This is because the 2A has, fundamentally, two interpretations, one traditional and one revisionist, that either guns can be regulated up to and including banning them or that guns can be regulated up to but not including banning them.
If you don’t comprehend this, you should not be posting any comments about the 2A. We don’t even know what you mean.
A more fundamental and better question is does this even need to be about the 2A? The federal government does not have an enumerated power to regulate guns anyway. And don’t me the crap about the specious Wickard v. Fillburn expanding the commerce clause to include anything the Feds want.
The 2A gave the government an absolute power to regulate guns up until Heller. It still empowers the government to regulate guns. So while I agree that the 2A is neither here nor there in any debate over automatic rifles/magazines/whatever—since even the Heller-created individual right to own guns does not create an absolute right to own guns—I was in fact responding to a comment about the 2A.
No, the Bill of Rights did not give the government extra powers. It was meant as redundancy (belt-and-suspenders) to explicitly state fed.gov powrers are limited to enumerated powers. These debates should be at state Constitutional level. Incorporation Theory of 14A is just another judge-made expansion of federales power.
The Bill of Rights was not intended to give any extra rights either. It was meant as a redundancy to explicitly state certain rights that were already assumed to exist. Perhaps this amounts to the same thing, but you’ve got a weird way of putting it considering it’s called “the Bill of Rights.”
As for your outright dismissal of the 14A, well, get back in your time machine if you don’t like the late 19th century.
I don’t dismiss it at all. I think it is proper because it was a validly passed amendment, but its intended purpose (equal rights) took 100 years to enact. That was a failure, yes, but to use it to subvert state constitutions nearly completely is not the intent. If it had been, they could have stated that, and had the added bonus of eliminating the now beauracratically redudant states.
These Politicians (except Trump) are all controlled by Global Zionist. They want their NWO. They know in order to go forward with this plan, they must get American’s guns.
Yeah, I agree with you. Kinda funny one takes an Oath to protect the constitution, while all along trying everything to destroy it. It is a slap in the face to all Liberal, Democrats, and some Conservatives.
Myself personally, I don’t associate with any group like that. I hate Republicans, Democrats, and some fake Libertarians.
People don’t understand what real FREEDOM is. Anarcho-Capatalism is the only way to really live. It is the only MORAL philosophy out there. Democracy kills, Socialism kills, Fascism kills, Communism kills.
FREEDOM WILL LIVE FOREVER!!!
Imagine if no one was given power over other individuals where they would have to take an oath?
Oaths are stupid because everyone that works in government is breaking the oath before they are “sworn in” anyway. They are paid by theft. Taxes are THEFT. How can be supporting the Constitution when their paychecks are stolen goods from the people and extortion from road pirates when there are no victims. This whole world everyone is tricked to believe is all being ran by one huge criminal gang, called governments.
Here’s another question:
Why is it IMPOSSIBLE to get the Congress to order an audit of The Federal Reserve?
Because the Rothschild’s have bought off all of our career Politicians in the Senate. They are scared of what happened to JFK. JFK was more of a man than 100% of our Senators. He signed Executive Order 11110, and this pissed off the owners of the Federal Reserve (Rothschild’s) and ultimately led to his murder by the CIA.
here is the deal
the website will offer prize money who can answer the questions correctly
zionistas, times up.
That photo is simply embarrassing.
John Lewis, from SNCC hero to congressional confidence trickster.
It’s also embarrassing because it’s quite obvious that most, if not all, of the people in that photo will simply not be able to physically withstand and remain in that floor sitting pose for any length of time. They are out of their element.
It’s especially embarrassing for Lewis, as that was, once, exactly his element.
It is interesting that they will “sit-in” to protest American gun laws but have no problem selling BILLIONS of dollars of weapons to countries like Saudi Arabia to kill innocents in Yemen.
NO PROBLEM selling billions of dollars of weapons all over the world to suppress innocent civilians.
Weapons sales in The United States: BAD.
Weapons sales to Third World Dictators to suppress innocent civilians: GOOD.
How many ways can you spell H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-T-E-S???
535
…who is (or at least was) on the watchlist. Perhaps he was told that if he joined the sit-in, his name would be removed.
Dems Sit-in LIVE http://www.c-span.org/video/?411624-1/watch-house-democrats-continue-house-sitin-gun-violence&live
The wardrobe slaves will be hard at work with the whisk brooms.
Pathetic crummy demoncrats politicking vs moron rethuglicans,and rational Trump is consider the outcast.oy.
The lists are certainly not perfect, but they can be greatly improved with relatively little effort by placing everyone on the list. This would be a) non-discriminatory, and b) ensure no ‘potential terrorists’ were inadvertently omitted.
Everyone on the list, a list for everyone. Your profile framed tastefully, suitable for hanging.
The flag flies at half mast and, in times of mourning, quarter-mast. The threat level is red, and always has been.
Why don’t the Democrats set up a centralized bureaucracy to ensure that the no-fly list is properly and constitutionally maintained and kept up to date? Then it could safely be used as a no-buy list as well. They could call it the Central Watchlist Administration Program.
Best of all, no NRA lobbyist’s feelings would be hurt, nor those of their pets in Congress, because no one would be denied the right to buy a gun except those who have been thoroughly vetted as terrorists by the FBI.
Assuming of course they have not already been hired by the FBI as informants.
If they’d been thoroughly vetted as terrorists, wouldn’t they be charged and in jail, not on a watchlist?
That’s part of the joke. Points to you (not to Doug).
You don’t get it, do you? Here’s the way it’s supposed to work in our system:
If law enforcement agents believe there is cause to deny someone a right possessed by the population in general, they take their case to a court, where a trial is held and a jury or judge reaches a verdict and the judge (pursuant to relevant law and guidelines) issues a sentence.
We call it “due process” (It’s getting really boring, having to repeat this to people who should have learned decades ago), because that’s the term used in our Constitution:
A process that doesn’t involve the legal branch (the courts) cannot, by definition, constitute due process of law — unless you want to roll up some Orwellian (or Holderian) Newspeak, which would make the Fibbies and all the other little authoritarians happy as pigs in shit.
According to Eric Holder, due process does not necessarily mean judicial process. For example, placing someone’s name on a list is part of a process – which the government can legalize. The person has therefore received due process of law, and there is nothing for the judiciary to arbitrate.
I suppose it could be challenged in court, but the judge would only consider the narrow issue of whether it was indeed the government (as authorized by law) that placed the person on the watchlist.
“Inter arma enim silent leges.”
And, “We have always been at war with _______ terrorism.”
Let me paraphrase the feelings of our politicians:
“the Constitution, how quaint.”
I don’t support that view, but that is the overriding feeling in DC.
One of my favorite things about the Internet is the way people will jump up and lecture you at the slightest provocation on any topic, no matter how basic. It’s hard to read people on the nets, and I guess some people just give up trying. Easier to go full Schoolhouse Rock on them.
Am I crazy?
I seem to remember when the Democratic Party was not utterly awful.
Now the DP is worse than the Bushes on issues like drone murder, guilty until proven innocent, whistleblower protection, RomneyCare, Wall Street, and dismantling our constitutional rights.
Power. It corrupts.
Around at the turn of the 19th century, were you?
If you mean 18th to 19th century, the Democratic Party didn’t exist. If you mean 19th to 20th century, the Democratic Party was the party of the Ku Klux Klan. Also, I’m probably older than Mike5000 and I can’t remember when the Democratic Party wasn’t awful. Try Vietnam War, October Missile Crisis, KKK into the ’60s.
“I can’t remember when the Democratic Party wasn’t awful. Try Vietnam War, October Missile Crisis, KKK into the ’60s.”
Try New Deal and FDR. A tiny window where capitalism recognized it had to do something to mollify the masses in order to survive. Capitalism no seems to feel any need for such mollification, either because their divide and conquer strategy has succeeded so well that there are no masses organized to challenge it or because TPTB believe they have the power to crush any possible opposition and, therefore, no longer have an interest in mollifying or in keeping their power hidden.
Why don’t they try to get a constitutional amendment passed? Oh, because then they would be following the rules, and very few of these people (except Ron Paul and Justin Amash) care about those kinds of things.
Sad but true almost few own up to the Oath they took. This is in bad faith and poisons the well for reasonable legislation. How do you trust anyone supporting a blacklist bases on secret findings.
Except that not all people feel the need to own guns even those wrongfully on those lists. Your article is just another backhanded way to cry 2nd Amendment freedom.
Asshole leaders cause terrorism which in turn takes away our freedoms.
Will you knuckleheads ever realize that,and the only way out of this insanity is America First,and the ending of selective security,where some are constantly at risk of death or destruction,while others snack and watch the show.
And lately,even their appetites are spoiled by the reality that what goes around comes around,and until all are secure,none will be.
So, your argument is that, because some people wrongfully on watch lists may not want to exercise a particular constitutional right, it’s OK to deprive everyone on those lists of that right, without due process of law.
Pathetic.
It’s like shrugging off so called “collateral damage” (aka mass murder) or shrugging off innocent people put to death by government via the Death Penalty.