Eleven years ago today, three suicide bombers attacked the London subway and a bus and killed 51 people. Almost immediately, it was obvious that retaliation for Britain’s invasion and destruction of Iraq was a major motive for the attackers.
Two of them said exactly that in videotapes they left behind: The attacks “will continue and pick up strengths till you pull your soldiers from Afghanistan and Iraq. … Until we feel security, you will be targets.” Then, less than a year later, a secret report from British military and intelligence chiefs concluded that “the war in Iraq contributed to the radicalization of the July 7 London bombers and is likely to continue to provoke extremism among British Muslims.” The secret report, leaked to The Observer, added: “Iraq is likely to be an important motivating factor for some time to come in the radicalization of British Muslims and for those extremists who view attacks against the U.K. as legitimate.”
The release on Tuesday of the massive Chilcot report — which the New York Times called a “devastating critique of Tony Blair” — not only offers more proof of this causal link, but also reveals that Blair was expressly warned before the invasion that his actions would provoke al Qaeda attacks on the U.K. As my colleague Jon Schwarz reported yesterday, the report’s executive summary quotes Blair confirming he was “aware” of a warning by British intelligence that terrorism would “increase in the event of war, reflecting intensified anti-U.S./anti-Western sentiment in the Muslim world, including among Muslim communities in the West.”None of this is the slightest bit surprising. Just as the British did, multiple Western intelligence agencies have long recognized (usually in secret) that at the top of the list of terrorism’s causes is the West’s militarism and interference in predominantly Muslim nations — as a 2004 Pentagon-commissioned report specified in listing the causes of terrorism: “American direct intervention in the Muslim world”; our “one-sided support in favor of Israel”; support for Islamic tyrannies in places like Egypt and Saudi Arabia; and, most of all, “the American occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan.” The report concluded: “Muslims do not ‘hate our freedom,’ but rather, they hate our policies.” Countless individuals who carried out or plotted attacks on the West have said the same.
Nobody should need official reports or statements from attackers to confirm what common sense makes clear: If you go around the world for years proclaiming yourself “at war,” bombing and occupying and otherwise interfering in numerous countries for your own ends — as the U.S. and U.K. have been doing for decades, long before 9/11 — some of those who identify with your victims will decide — choose — to retaliate with violence of their own. Even Tony Blair’s own Deputy Prime Minister John Prescott acknowledged this self-evident truth in 2015: “When I hear people talking about how people are radicalized, young Muslims — I’ll tell you how they are radicalized. Every time they watch the television where their families are worried, their kids are being killed or murdered and rockets, you know, firing on all these people, that’s what radicalizes them.”
Recognizing this fact is not — as is often absurdly claimed — a denial of agency. It is the opposite: an affirmation of agency, a recognition of how human beings make choices.
Despite how clear this causal connection is, it is still necessary to document because acknowledging it remains one of the West’s most harshly enforced taboos. In the U.K., those who pointed out that the Iraq War provoked this attack were — and still are — vilified. Tariq Ali recounts the vicious public repudiation he received when he raised the issue in a Guardian article the day after the attack. Tony Blair and his allies — acting out of self-absolution — continue to vehemently deny any causal connection. Last year, Ken Livingston was denounced in the harshest terms — accused of “siding with suicide bombers” — for highlighting how the attack on Iraq helped provoke the 7/7 attack. And then earlier this year, various Labour MPs denounced Jeremy Corbyn for the crime of linking these two events.
What we have here is an indisputable truth that has been turned into a harshly enforced taboo. No matter how much evidence mounts proving that Western aggression, violence, and domination fuels and provokes terror attacks, many influential factions still try to suppress this fact by decreeing it unspeakable. It’s obviously more comforting and pleasing to believe that one is purely the innocent victim of hideous violence rather than a participant in it, a perpetrator of it. But while that’s what motivates this refusal to acknowledge reality, it does not excuse it.
Not only did Tony Blair’s attack on Iraq provoke subsequent attacks on his own country, but he knew at the time he decided to attack Iraq that this would happen, because he was warned of it. The anniversary of these attacks is the ideal time to reflect on this causal connection, and this week’s Chilcot report — released the day before the anniversary of the 7/7 London attack — makes it impossible to ignore.
>It’s obviously more comforting and pleasing to believe that one is purely the innocent victim of hideous violence rather than a participant in it, a perpetrator of it.<
Quite. Google Nordhausen epitome of the big lie.
The 7/7 bombings in London, were NOT done by Muslims! That was don by the same ‘terrorists’ that did 9/11! (But don’t worry- the real terrorists are about to get what is coming to them! Watch!)
Attacks like the 7/7 one BENEFIT the government, quite as much as wars themselves do. Fear and hatred are what the government thrives on – and they feed each other.
“Every time they watch the television where their families are worried, their kids are being killed or murdered and rockets, you know, firing on all these people, that’s what radicalizes them.”
“Despots and ruling cliques can succeed in dominating and exploiting their fellow man, but they cannot prevent reactions to this inhuman treatment. Their subjects become frightened, suspicious, lonely and, if not due to external reasons, their systems collapse at some point because fears, suspicions and loneliness eventually incapacitate the majority to function effectively and intelligently. Whole nations, or social groups within them, can be subjugated and exploited for a long time, but they react. They react with apathy or such impairment of intelligence, initiative and skills that they gradually fail to perform the functions which should serve their rulers. Or they react by the accumulation of such hate and destructiveness as to bring about an end to themselves, their rulers and their system. Again their reaction may create such independence and longing for freedom that a better society is built upon their creative impulses. Which reaction occurs, depends on many factors: on economic and political ones, and on the spiritual climate in which people live”
Fromm, Erich. The Sane Society
more rounds of the never ending “”How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?”” ….
http://www.lowyinterpreter.org/post/2016/07/11/How-to-respond-to-Chinas-salami-tactics-in-South-China-Sea.aspx
… so China is set to reject the “upcoming ruling” on the South China Sea?
… by the “UN’s Permanent Court of Arbitration”?
interesting!
How come that so-called “UN’s Permanent Court of Arbitration” doesn’t arbitrate on cases of crimes against humanity by Western Countries?
What an odd joke!
RCL
“Why?”, right?
That pro-Russia Putin again!
The question should be: why is it that when it comes to Russia or China they don’t “freedom-lovingly” go “Hello this is ‘America'”?
“‘The’ ‘free’ and the ‘brave'”, abusive bullies they have always been?
Isn’t the U.S. + NATO theworldsgreatestsuperpower? Why is “freedom-loving”, “being responsible” so easy when the people you are attacking can’t defend themselves on an equal basis?
There are way more oil, gas and minerals in Russia + strategic minerals and cheap labor in China than they will ever need, right? Why not going against them when they have inviting you to try your “freedom-loving” with them?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/05/south-china-sea-beijing-begins-military-drills-ahead-of-key-territorial-ruling
RCL
According to the Jerusalem Post this morning, Hamza Bin Laden son of the mass killer Bin Laden is threatening the west in a video he posted.
“……..”We will continue striking you and targeting you in your country and abroad in response to your oppression of the people of Palestine, Afghanistan, Syria, Iraq, Yemen, Somalia and the rest of the Muslim lands that did not survive your oppression,” Hamza said……”
Apparently, Hamza has only been reading the Intercept for news, and has no idea that al-Qaeda is oppressing and/or supporting the murder of Muslims in the same countries. For example, al-Qaeda’s close ally in Pakistan (TTP) is noted for their harsh interpretation of sharia law, attacks against Shia Muslims (i.e., apostates) and their war against government forces.
1. On 4 April 2011 two suicide bombers attacked a Sufi shrine in Dera Ghazi Khan, Pakistan. The bombings occurred while thousands of devotees were gathered for the annual Urscelebrations at the shrine. The attack left more than 50 people dead, as well as 120 wounded.[175] The Pakistani Taliban are ideologically opposed to Sufism and claimed responsibility soon after the attacks.[176]
2. On 16 August 2012 militants removed 22 Shiites from buses and executed them in Mansehra District. The Darra Adam Khel faction of the TTP claimed responsibility in a telephone interview with Reuters
3. The TTP Khyber Agency faction claimed responsibility for a 23 March 2012 bombing that targeted a mosque, run by Lashkar-e-Islam (LeI), in Kolay village of Tirah Valley. The blast killed more than a dozen people and injured at least six others. A TTP spokesman told reporters that the attacks against the LeI would continue
4. The TTP claimed responsibility for the 2014 Peshawar school attack which claimed 141 lives, including 132 school children between eight and 18 years of age, with the remaining nine fatalities being staff members of the school.[209][210]……..”
These are just a few of the attacks targeting (civilian) Muslims by al-Qaeda’s close ally, the Pakistan Taliban (TTP) giving plenty of credibility to the message delivered by Bin Laden (with my insert in brackets):
“……“Whoever has killed our civilians, then we have the right to kill [ours too]”…..”
Hamza – just another hypocritical and lying Bin Laden family member
The post lightly [edited] for accuracy:
“. . . [If you don’t agree with me, you must be] a far left wing whack-job.
The Pentagon-commissioned report just had the wrong conclusions.
[The 2006 National Intelligence Estimate – comprising the judgment of all 16 U.S. intelligence agencies:
. . .just had the wrong conclusions.
The Joint Intelligence Committee (UK) 2003 report just had the wrong conclusions.
The National Security Council (US) has had the wrong conclusions.
The National Intelligence Council (US) 2005 report just had the wrong conclusions.
The International Institute for Strategic Studies (UK) 2004 report just had the wrong conclusions.
The Central Intelligence Agency just had the wrong conclusions.
The Defense Intelligence Agency very recently reached the wrong conclusions.
The Chilcot report now has the wrong conclusions.
They] (and other radical leftists[ like military commanders, intelligence agencies, conservative think-tanks, and everyone who has considered the facts and isn’t completely insane) [are] time and time again [reaching the same] false conclusions. Here is [what you can say about me]:
“. . .But this gross[, ignorant twit] is obviously primarily fueled by chao[tic thinking, ignorance, bigotry,] and desp[aration – he makes so many off-hand “whack-job” references – it’s not the same dynamic as with [satisfied men].”
[Rational people can say something like] this in response to [my drivel]. Do you see how [they are] putting [me] on a pedestal? [Me neither. My] cause is just [depraved]. As I [spewed-out] below, radical leftists (and Tony Blair’s Deputy Prime Minister John Prescott is] typical) view Bin Laden as a kind of cult hero. [Okay, that’s obviously not true, but this is:
Bin Laden’s cause [i]s justified [by my own depraved way of thinking. When I rationalize] the murder [of Pakistani civilians because “Their] government has blood on its hands”, I’m tracking Bin Laden’s reasoning:] (“Whoever has killed our civilians, then we have the right to kill theirs”. Essentially, this [crazy and disgusting thinking is] what [terrorists and I have in common]. That’s justification (not just “cause and [e]ffect”).
DocHollywood
“……Bin Laden’s cause [i]s justified [by my own depraved way of thinking. When I rationalize] the murder [of Pakistani civilians because “Their] government has blood on its hands”, I’m tracking Bin Laden’s reasoning:] (“Whoever has killed our civilians, then we have the right to kill theirs”. Essentially, this [crazy and disgusting thinking is] what [terrorists and I have in common]. That’s justification (not just “cause and [e]ffect”)…….”
Completely false Doc. First of all, Pakistani civilians are collateral damage. They were not targeted by the US, but were killed or injured when US drones targeted terrorists (al-Qaeda) or the Taliban. Al-Qaeda specifically targeted civilians for example 911, 7/7 and the Madrid bombings. The difference is recognized in international law. Second of all, the Pakistan government has blood on its hands for two reasons. First, they provide a safe haven for the Taliban to operate (which is why there are US drones in Pakistan). Second, the Pakistan-supported Taliban account for 70%(+) of the civilian casualties in Afghanistan (NATO; 2%(+). That is even straight forward enough for you to understand.
Mona clearly contradicts Greenwald:
“……But this grossly nihilistic cult [ISIS] is obviously primarily fueled by chaos, unemployment and despair. It’s not the same dynamic as with Al Qaeda……”
Mona clearly states the main reasons that young Muslims join ISIS – and it is NOT our foreign policy. That, of course, doesn’t mean that some Muslims aren’t brainwashed into attacking the west because of our foreign policies (“Whoever has killed our civilians, then we have the right to kill theirs”). After all, some probably read the Intercept. But their thinking is completely irrational based on the killing of civilian Muslims by the same terrorist organizations that are driven by political goals and power (caliphate, sharia law, subjugation).
Thanks Doc.
Mona:
CraigSummers:
It’s apparent that hanging your hat on an argument that clearly denies the relationship between cause and effect is your modus operandi. This one, however, takes the cake.
“When two things occur successively we call them cause and effect if we believe one event made the other one happen. If we think one event is the response to the other, we call it a reaction. If we feel that the two incidents are not related, we call it a mere coincidence. If we think someone deserved what happened, we call it retribution or reward, depending on whether the event was negative or positive for the recipient. If we cannot find a reason for the two events’ occurring simultaneously or in close proximity, we call it an accident. Therefore, how we explain coincidences depends on how we see the world. Is everything connected, so that events create resonances like ripples across a net? Or do things merely co-occur and we give meaning to these co-occurrences based on our belief system? Lieh-tzu’s answer: It’s all in how you think.”
– Liezi, Lieh-tzu: A Taoist Guide to Practical Living
Bin Laden stated:
“…….whoever has killed our civilians, then we have the right to kill theirs…….”
Clearly Bin Laden was mistranslated based on al-Qaeda’s affiliation with the brutal Zarqawi in Iraq, the TTP, the Afghan Taliban, the al-Nusra Front, al-Shabaab etc. The correct translation is as follows:
“……whoever has killed our civilians, then we have the right to kill [ours too]…..” My insertion in brackets
Mona writes:
“…….[You even agreed that the recruitment for ISIS is NOT driven by our foreign policy]…..Nope. Never happened. What I did say, with citation to, among others, Tony Blair, is that ISIS wouldn’t exist but for the U.S. and UK’s “liberation” of Iraq……” What I wrote is in brackets.
Mona attempts to change the subject entirely. What Mona wrote on April 13, 2016 on Murtaza Hussain’s article (“YOUNG IRAQIS OVERWHELMINGLY CONSIDER U.S. THEIR ENEMY, POLL SAYS”):
“……But this grossly nihilistic cult [ISIS] is obviously primarily fueled by chaos, unemployment and despair. It’s not the same dynamic as with Al Qaeda……”
PRIMARILY FUELED BY CHAOS, UNEMPLOYMENT AND DISPAIR. This exactly repeats the results of the Arab Youth Survey. That is YOU agreeing that ISIS recruiting is not fueled by US foreign policy. That is a key point which completely refutes Greenwald’s assertion.
Thanks Mona
On the issue of the bomb disposal robot, being turned into a bomb delivery robot, apparently Americans haven’t yet got the latest handbook on modern police procedures and best practices. What police tend to do in other countries is called….”waiting”. You wait until the suspect either kills themselves, or they give themselves up. If required the police can drink coffee, eat sandwiches, whatever it takes. Then at the end they….and this will be an unfamiliar term to most Americans…they “arrest” the suspect.
The suspect was described by the police as “cornered”, had no hostages. There were no lives at risk, and he wasn’t going anywhere.
Now one justification for the army tactic of blowing him up being used that I heard was that the police were concerned that they were vulnerable to being “outflanked” by other (it turns out non-existant) shooters.
Typically “outflanked” is a term heard in war colleges, battlefields and in military histories. It’s not got any place in policing. The suspect is not a member of an enemy army. He’s a citizen suspected of a crime. A soldier may not need to justify blowing up an enemy soldier. But a policeman is not a soldier, and a suspect is not an enemy soldier.
When the police are thinking in terms of the citizens they serve, “outflanking” them, something is wrong.
With the caveat that I understand that policing is a dangerous business, what is to stop the police caught in the most recent videos from using the “outflank” legal defence.
– Why did you shoot the driver of the car officer?
– I had to. I was concerned that someone else might outflank me and I’d be surrounded!!!!
In other words, the, let’s call it the “Dallas” argument is, that there only needs to be a perceived fear that they might be “outflanked” by potential future suspects. And deadly force is justified.
Episode 867566576867766 of “How Stupid are Americans!!!”
In America, where Americans think it is a good idea to claim “right” to carry army rifles on the street, surprise surprise people do just that, including Mark Hughes.
Given that it is both legal, and common to carry such weapons, nobody seems to take any notice of Mark Hughes as he does just that, in the midst of hundreds of BLM demonstrators. Then the Texas police, for some reason get excited when they receive a picture of Mark Hughes, on the street, with his gun. Naturally they broadcast the picture with the caption:
“This is our suspect, please help us find him.”
Result:
I love it, Hughes is exercising his constitutional right to risk…either getting shot by the police, or by one of his angry fellow citizens. Or rather he was.
Now, reality has set in, and playing army man doesn’t seem so much fun anymore, he may be leaving the gun at home in future.
DocHollywood (tolerant of anti-Jewish bigotry)
How many times has Greenwald pointed out that the US has bombed seven predominantly Muslim countries during the Obama administration (in nearly eight years)? Drone attacks have killed hundreds of innocent Muslims in the seven predominantly Muslim countries. When Obama became President, the US was still in Iraq killing Muslims (for three more years). The American military is STILL in Afghanistan killing Muslims. The US STILL provides unconditional support for Israel. Three wars were fought by Israel against Hamas during the Obama administration killing thousands of Muslims including as many as 1000 Muslim children. The US still supports the same dictators providing weapons and technology to Middle East despots. Europe has also supported the US in Afghanistan, Libya, partially in Iraq and has supported Israel. Very little has changed in US and European policy since 911. The 2004 Pentagon-commissioned report specifically stated:
“…….“Muslims do not ‘hate our freedom,’ but rather, they hate our policies.”……”
Greenwald has summed up the US connection to “terrorism” on numerous occasions (blaming terrorism on the west without providing any alternative reasons for the causes of terrorism):
“….spending decades bombing, invading, occupying, droning, interfering in, imposing tyranny on, and creating lawless prisons in other countries generates intense anti-American and anti-western rage (for obvious reasons) and ensures that those western nations will be attacked as well…..”
Bin Laden stated:
“…….whoever has killed our civilians, then we have the right to kill theirs…….”
According to Greenwald and Bin Laden, Muslims (Arabs especially) are justified in joining a terrorist organization to martyr themselves and kill Americans and Europeans. Yet despite all of the Muslim killing by the US (west) over the past fifteen years, Arab youth when asked why they joined ISIS rejected the conclusions of the 2004 Pentagon-commissioned report and rejected the often-stated reasons by Greenwald for the causes of terrorism. The number one reason given in the poll was the unemployment picture followed by superiority of religious views (Sunnis) and third by sectarian tensions throughout the region. The imposition of western values on the Arab world came in number four.
In addition, approximately 5000 Muslims left Europe to join ISIS – to primarily kill Muslims. Why did so many predominantly European Muslims pissed off as hell at the US and western policies of killing Muslims leave to join ISIS – to kill mainly Muslims? In fact, no one commits more acts of terrorism in the world today than Sunni Muslims (including the far left coddled al-Qaeda), and no one is at the receiving end of these brutal attacks more than Muslims. Just this past week, over 280 Shia Muslims (civilians) were targeted and murdered by ISIS in a Baghdad bombing. A Shia shrine was attacked killing 35(+) more north of Baghdad. In fact, Shia mosques have been targeted in Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Yemen, Saudi Arabia (and so on) over the past several years. Maybe Bin Laden was mistranslated:
“…….whoever has killed our civilians, then we have the right to kill [ours too]…….” (my insert in brackets).
There are numerous Islamic terrorist organizations (hundreds) in the world which seek to gain power and impose sharia law on the population killing mostly Muslims in the process. Al-Qaeda, ISIS, Boko Haram, al-Shabaab, TTP, Afghanistan Taliban (etc.) kill mostly Muslims for power. All terrorist organizations have goals including the much admired (by the radical left) al-Qaeda. There are no “Mother Teresa” terrorist organizations attacking only western targets for revenge without political goals (which include imposing sharia law, subjugating Muslims and reinstating the caliphate). Radical Islam is a world political-religious movement much like the failed communist revolution only much smaller in scale. Blaming the west for the world Islamic movement is part and parcel to the strategy of the extreme left which holds no one responsible except the west for the rise of Islamic terrorism. Just ask Jon Schwarz. This all began on Columbus Day in 1492.
The radical left continues to propagate the propaganda of the terrorists – to the benefit of the terrorists.
“…….Greenwald’s assertion. [His] is just far left wing propaganda [produced by the Pentagon, the CIA, the NSC, and British intelligence…….”
Wasn’t it George Tenet who said that WMDs were a slam dunk in Iraq?
Thanks Doc
DEAR READERS: If you’re inclined to entertainement, see Doc Hollywood “edit” craig summers here. What Doc (entertainingly) reduces craig’s drivel to, is craig’s hilarious notion that the Pentagon, the CIA and British intelligence chiefs spout “leftist propaganda.” No, really.
Mona
“…….craig’s hilarious notion that the Pentagon, the CIA and British intelligence chiefs spout “leftist propaganda.” No, really…….”
No Mona. You are the far left wing whack-job. The Pentagon-commissioned report just just had the wrong conclusions. It has been cited by Greenwald (and other radical leftists) time and time again propagating the false conclusions. Here is what you wrote Mona:
“……But this grossly nihilistic cult [ISIS] is obviously primarily fueled by chaos, unemployment and despair. It’s not the same dynamic as with Al Qaeda……”
You wrote this in response to the Arab Youth Survey. Do you see how you are putting al-Qaeda on a pedestal? Their cause was different and just. As I said below, radical leftists (and you are typical) view Bin Laden as a kind of cult hero. Bin Laden’s cause was justified – even the murder of 3000 people on 911 (“Whoever has killed our civilians, then we have the right to kill theirs”). Essentially, this is what Greenwald has said for a long time. That’s justification (not just “cause and affect”).
Bin Laden symbolized the consequences from hundreds of years of colonialism, western imperialism, and theft of natural resources. He fought and died for Muslims to free the Islamic world from western oppression. Bin Laden was the extreme left’s “freedom fighter”. To view Bin Laden in this manner, you have to ignore the murderous rampages of al-Qaeda affiliated franchises in the Middle East and North Africa (for example: Zarqawi in Iraq). It was all just a fucking lie passed along by extreme leftists like Greenwald (and you Mona). Al-Qaeda sought to subjugate Muslims under sharia Law – and recreate the Islamic empire under a caliphate. The Islamic society envisioned by Bin Laden was no different (and probably far worse) than the authoritarians he ultimately wanted to overthrow. Most importantly, al-Qaeda has been willing to kill as many Muslims as it takes to accomplish their goal.
Thanks Mona.
Craig asserts with no basis in fact or reality: “The Pentagon-commissioned report just just had the wrong conclusions.”
Um, how come they, too, are not “radical leftists?” Their conclusion are virtually the same as Glenn’s or mine? You got some ‘splainin to do Craig, especially cuz….you are STILL ignoring:
Craig, you so funny. You’re gonna have to say all these U.S. and UK intelligence people are simply making mistakes — for obscure reasons known only to you — or you must dismiss them as “radical left.”
Which is it, Craig? How is truth determined in CraigWorld? How are all these U.S. and UK intelligence experts dismissed in your alternate universe?
You have yet to respond or refute anything I have written. You even agreed that the recruitment for ISIS is NOT driven by our foreign policy. That must apply to Boko Haram, Abu Sayyaf, al-Shabaab and countless other Islamic terrorist organizations since they don’t even target the US (or the west, in general). There were 5000 Muslims who traveled from Europe to join ISIS obviously also recruited for reasons other than out foreign policy since they mostly kill Muslims – and could have stayed in Europe to target the west. You are boring me to tears. There is nothing more for me to say really.
Thanks.
Radical leftists, eh craig?
And about this willful obtuseness:
As Doc’s parody/correction of you put it:
As for this:
Nope. Never happened. What I did say, with citation to, among others, Tony Blair, is that ISIS wouldn’t exist but for the U.S. and UK’s “liberation” of Iraq.
I suspect you can keep up, craig; you simply don’t want to. Truth is anathema to your authoritarian, militaristic ideology.
So severely does this limit your ability to honestly participate here you either have to: 1. ignore British military and intelligence chiefs findings on a huge cause of anti-Western terrorist violence by Muslims, or, 2. you have to include British military and intelligence chiefs in the category of “radical leftists.”
Sucks to be you!
[Readers: To all whom I’ve promised to mostly ignore craig, I promise I’ll revert to form when this thread is over.]
If you really believe that saying “if we invade Iraq (or other country, etc.), they will attack us” is Greenwald assigning blame (or cause) for terrorism in general, then make your case. You certainly have not done so, and I do not think you can.
Well, expect more of this:
// __ State Department won’t comment on possible U.S.-trained Honduran hitmen
youtube.com/watch?v=jv-nuwvs0aM
~
and that in response:
https://theintercept.com/2016/06/23/state-department-turns-blind-eye-to-evidence-of-honduran-militarys-activist-kill-list/?comments=1#comments
~
Unfortunately, “nothing new” and the senseless killing keeps getting closer and closer to you and me. What we should all be doing in trying to break this cycle!
RCL
The post lightly [edited] for accuracy:
“My God [I am a dishonest psychopath]. I have [spouted all] this bullshit [in my] posts – but especially in my first post [pretending that the uniform conclusions of intelligence agencies came from] only Mr Greenwald. [I] need to become a little more creative [then to just] respond [with] the survey which points out [one other reason – sane people know there’s more than just one -] why Arab youth become terrorists – contradicting [mine but not] Greenwald’s assertion. [His] is just far left wing propaganda [produced by the Pentagon, the CIA, the NSC, and British intelligence. That’s a really stupid claim, but so is denying a correlation:]
[while asserting a correlation:]
Is there any real difference between what Bin Laden says and what [I] say? Both of [us] are simply [batsh!t crazy] justifying terrorism:
‘. . .The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq. . .So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against us. . .’ – Bin Laden
‘Who care’s what the fucking Pakistanis think?. . .who whine about US drone attacks in Pakistan when it is their government (Pakistan) which provides a safe haven for the Taliban in Pakistan. The Taliban account for 75% of the civilian casualties in Afghanistan, and they are funded and supported by the Pakistan government. . .’- craigsummers“
Well done again, Doc. This is fun:
Yes, only in CraigWorld do the Pentagon, the CIA and British intelligence chiefs spout “leftist propaganda.” (Say, do you suppose Craig is a Bircher? That might explain why he thinks the leftist rot goes so high?)
I really do like reading these posts of yours when you write this way. Too funny Doc.
Thanks for adding years to my life. ;)
OT: Another Honduran activist has been murdered.
https://twitter.com/reportedly/status/751487681515839488
1000 years from now, Tony Blair will be seen as one of humanity’s greatest mistakes, as in one of the worst humans we have ever produced.
Excellent allegory! Sarcasm aside, let me reframe il Duce’ comment into a question: I wonder if considering it “naturally difficult” is right and proper. Are our sense of empathy and humanity so easily played with on a social scale that we accept all kinds of cr@p from politicians (our “shepherds”)? As it has been pointed out:
Are we “freedom-loving”, “good Christian” Westerners really “different”, “better” than the rest of all biological “freedom-hating” lowlifes out there? or are ours just narratives of abuse and “How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?” kinds of stories?
… the “broader” picture as defined by whom? (right there there is an implicit assumption we should be aware of)
During the Reagan administration there was a rise in oil prices. His response was “Hello, this is America!” (expect your country to be bombed, your social structure destroyed …)
Now did we have to go “Hello, this is America!”? “America” could have strategized its technological prowess (as other European countries had been doing already) to start researching in more eco friendly strategies, less wasteful cars, more public transportation, rethinking our cities, so that we would be all dependent on oil (waste less time commuting everyday, be less obese, …) and they could have become a leader in those technological sectors; but, no, it is easier to “freedom-lovingly” bomb people and show to ourself how “unmoral” they are… “What were of the Universe if “America” wouldn’t be there to make sure there is ‘freedom, ‘justice’ and ‘democracy’ …”
RCL
I wonder if Obama, when he gives hand-wringing speeches decrying domestic violence committed by police and against police, I wonder if he ever considers the effect that his drone-bombing aggression has on the American psyche? Does he ever consider, that as the moral leader of the country, his violence overseas encourages violence in the US?
“the moral leader of the country”
We elected a pope? Grand Ayatollah?
Here’s a very good video (Secrets of the Seven Sisters) detailing the history of the agenda to control Iraqi oil that was at the heart of the Iraq invasion:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TXG70xAnSU
As the Cheney Energy Task Force meeting makes clear, with its maps of Iraqi oilfields and lists of lease-holders of those fields (from which BP, Shell, Exxon and Chevron were excluded), the Iraq invasion had nothing to do with terrorism and nothing to do with WMDs. It was simply about moving in, erecting a puppet regime, establishing military bases, securing control of the oil output, and then using Iraq as a military toehold in the Middle East for further invasions and occupations, i.e. of Syria and Iran. That was the Bush-Cheney plan, in which Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Rice, Powell and others played leading roles.
The dog-whistle government-corporate line is that without control of this oil, people in American and Britain couldn’t heat their homes or drive their cars – but that’s BS; the goal is to sell the oil on the global market and take the profits back to London and Wall Street banks; nothing but your standard elite greed, for which hundreds of thousands of lives were sacrificed. This is a key point.
Of course that’s a criminal war agenda, aggressive warfare for the seizure of natural resources, the equivalent of Hitler’s invasion of Poland, so a justifying story had to be created and fed to the American public and Congress – and the Bush administration relied on (1) the CIA and (2) corporate news media to create and disseminate this story, about 9/11 and anthrax and Saddam and WMDs.
Parts of this plan were very successful:
The rest of it was a disaster – the preferred puppets were rejected by the Iraqi people, who demanded elections, efforts to crush the political Iraqi opposition via torture in Abu Ghraib backfired, a massive insurgency took off, and eventually all the military bases were withdrawn, and no military action against Syria or Iran was possible – not until Obama & Cameron took over where Bush & Blair left off, c.2011, that is, with their covert support for the radical ISIS groups who were supposed to overthrow Assad. That of course turned into another debacle.
But the bottom line remains the same – this was a criminal war, a war of aggression, the very crime that Hitler’s followers were prosecuted for in Nuremberg. The architects all deserve to be transported to the Hague for criminal prosecution and long prison sentences.
“Justice will be done” president Obama proclaimed emphatically this morning … referring to the police shootings in Dallas.
Seriously? The US invaded Iraq to get its oil, defeated the army, but was unable actually profit from this military victory because the Iraqi people voted the wrong way?
How about embracing a more accurate reality, independent of the wisdom from an Iraqi taxi driver.
Sorry. I replied to photo, I thought.
NYT:
So, let’s assume that police violence against blacks caused the Dallas shootings. Let’s assume there will be no taboo against acknowledging that cause and that everyone in America will acknowledge it. What reaction do we expect from those who until now have believed that police violence against blacks has been justified? Do they change their minds? Or is their support for the police intensified?
Causation means nothing unless it leads to a debate about justification.
You mean the actual causes of the Iraq war, the secret agenda of its architects, vs. the public justifications, the false ‘intelligence’ produced by compliant CIA managers, and the dissemination of those lies by a compliant corporate media?
I’m struggling to see how this relates to domestic strife in the U.S. between poor communities and police forces, however; perhaps violence abroad encourages violence at home, in some broad sense? Chickens coming home to roost, kind of thing? Killing innocent civilians abroad is OK, but mass slaughter at home is not?
So what are you trying to say?
7/7 Ten Years On – An indictment of the State and the state of investigative journalism
As the tenth anniversary of 7th July 2005 materialises much will be written and broadcast around the official ‘narrative’ of what happened that fateful day. Ten years on and you might think that there would not be much more that could be learned about what happened. Yet, on 6th July 2015, we learn from the former head of the Counter Terrorism Command at Scotland Yard between 2002 and 2008, Peter Clarke, that:
I spent the weekend before the London bombings of July 7 2005 with my colleagues in the anti-terorism branch, working through our response to the most difficult scenario we could think of. The one we came up with was multiple simultaneous attacks on the Tube. Four days later, our musings became a dreadful reality.
How prescient a scenario this was, mirroring as it did a Panaroma ‘documentary’ from 2004, as well as crisis management exercises that were running on the day of 7th July 2005 that were also operating around a similar scenario. The idea of a series of explosions across the underground network seems to have been very common currency for quite some time among the anti-terror brigades.
J7 have received the usual barrage of requests for comment in recent weeks from various media organisations who are forced to care, for a brief time at least, about the events of 7/7 by dint of the fact that an anniversary is on the cards. Some requests have provided questions to which they would like responses from the J7 team of researchers. One such journalist is Jack Sommers of the Huffington Post. In response to his questions and those of other journalists asking for comment on similar issues, J7 offers the following.
Do you regard the official version of events of what happened, on the balance of probabilities, as the most plausible? If not, what version of events do you find most plausible
It’s not up to J7 to provide plausible explanations of what happened; our job is to ask the right questions and try to elicit truthful or revealing answers from the authorities. There still exists the idea that people are innocent until proven guilty and therefore the burden of proof is on the State to prove its case for the prosecution beyond reasonable doubt. Ten years on the State has provided no evidence, other than that which is purely circumstantial, speculative or presumed that would secure a successful conviction of the four accused. It took almost 4 years for the authorities to fudge a response to a Freedom of Information request submitted 13 days after 7th July 2005 requesting the basis of how the alleged bombers’ ID was apparently determined.
Has the momentum behind J7 grown or shrunk in recent years since the inquest into the 52 people killed? Why?
The same momentum will always be there in a search for the truth of what happened. 7/7 is not unique in this regard. The same momentum and movement for truth as possessed by the grand-daughter of Alice Wheeldon who is still pursuing justice after the setting-up of her grandmother in 1916 by MI5. Records and information was hidden behind official secrecy as part of a concerted State cover-up that ran for over 80 years. The same momentum as the relatives of the 21 killed during the 1974 Birmingham pub bombings, who have never even had an inquest into the deaths of their loved ones, while the state incarcerated innocent people for over 16 years, as a government 75 year ban on disclosure of relevant material to the case continues.
Truth is a powerful thing and those who seek truth and justice are persistent in their quest and, as history as shown, that quest is passed down through the generations.
“Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.”
– Martin Luther King, Jr.
What aspect of the official narrative do you find least convincing and does this make you doubt the narrative overall?
The official narrative is a deeply flawed document and has been amended as a result of information uncovered by J7. Secret and in camera hearings during the Inquest by a specially appointed privy councillor judge cast further doubt on the transparency of the process and the veracity of the story told in the ‘narrative’. It is worth remembering that the definition of a narrative is this: “a story or account of events, experiences, or the like, whether true or fictitious.” We believe that a story that might be truthful or fictitious is not sufficient explanation for an event the magnitude of 7/7, nor is it sufficient to convict the accused without trial.
Why is an inquest into the 4 men accused of carrying out 7/7 important? Why do you think they have they not happened?
It is not only important, it is a requirement of Article 2 of the European Convention of Human Rights. J7 are still waiting for investigative journalists imbued with the tenacity to uncover the facts around quite why the State has failed to conduct an inquest into the deaths of the accused, as well as all the other issues that exist around the truth of what happened on 7/7. J7 submitted a request for a resumption of the inquests into the deaths of the 4 accused to Lady Justice Hallett during the 7/7 Inquests proceedings.
The inquests into 52 of the deaths on 7th July 2005 commenced over five years after the deaths occurred and only after the government tried to implement the power to use ‘suitably trained and cleared coroners and counsel’ to undertake inquests without juries. André Rebello, Coroner for the City of Liverpool, honorary secretary of the Coroners’ Society and the executive officer of the Coroners’ Society confirmed that there had been no consultation with the coroners themselves and was asked in 2008, “What is your view of the proposal that inquests in some circumstances should be held before suitably trained and cleared coroners appointed by the Secretary of State?” His response is telling:
“I am very uncomfortable about that. I think that it drives a coach and horses through the separation of powers. If a suitably qualified or specially ticketed coroner needs to be brought in, it certainly cannot be any part of the Executive that appoints the coroner. Well, it could be, but our rule of law would be going out the window.”
The measures incorporating secret juries and specially appointed coroners passed through Parliament by a slim majority of only eight votes, on Thursday, 12 November 2009. The process was assisted no less by a procedural farce engineered by Jack Straw. The procedural farce included a reported number of Labour MPs who apparently voted the wrong way by mistake.
How do you respond to those who say the promotion of alternative theories has been upsetting for survivors of the attacks? What about those who have attacked those survivors personally? (Such as this: rachel-north-liar-and-charletane.blogspot.ie/)
J7 has always walked the fine line between the official doctrine contained in the narrative and those who ostensibly question the official story but posit their own evidence-free pet theories about what happened. J7 research and writings are based on facts that we have established through continued research, endless FOI requests, and information placed into the public domain by the authorities along the way.
Have you ever received support from either survivors of 7/7 or the relatives of those killed? If so, what was it?
Yes. Overwhelmingly the feedback we have received from those directly affected by 7/7 have been supportive of our quest to get the truth of what actually happened. Further evidence of this can be seen from the many occasions when J7’s research was cited or used during the course of the 7/7 Inquests and presented before the court by the representatives of the bereaved. Survivors and relatives also want to know the truth about what happened and their loved ones. If anything, the truth about what happened is vastly more important to them than it is to those of us who do not accept the official narrative for the reasons we have carefully and painstakingly documented in depth over the last decade.
Ten years on from the events in London on July 7th 2005, what we know about them remains exactly as it was at the conclusion of the 7/7 Inquests back in 2011, which we highlighted again on the 6th anniversary. Just some of these are mentioned below for anyone that might think an event of the significance of 7/7 should be justly and judiciously investigated to uncover the truth about what happened and how it happened.
Without a full and independent Public Inquiry, held outside of the restrictive remit of the Inquiries Act 2005, it remains the case that:
The bodies of Tanweer and Khan were not included in the ‘LifeExtinct’ body counts carried out on 7th July by Dr Morgan Costello
The police viewing of the Luton Station CCTV footage was conducted as early as 10th July, despite the official account clearly stating that the men were identified on CCTV at King’s Cross Thameslink on 11th July, and that it was this discovery that led the investigation to Luton as a possible site of interest.
There exist no recorded sightings of three of the men, Khan Tanweer and Lindsay, after the footage from King’s Cross Thameslink, some way from the Underground tube network. Apparently, a temporary CCTV system was installed at King’s Cross underground and malfunctioned for the 20 crucial minutes between 8.30am and 8.50am. Additionally, there is no CCTV footage showing the three from any other cameras. This means that there is absolutely no CCTV evidence places three of the accused anywhere on the London Underground network on the morning of 7 July 2005.
No CCTV from pre-incidence tube carriages has been released, despite this CCTV apparently existing, and despite it being crucial evidence which could confirm or deny that three of the men boarded the carriages they are alleged to have boarded. Why has it not been released? This CCTV should also have been made available to Colonel Mahoney when the expensive modelling of likely injuries sustained by the deceased was conducted to make up for the fact that no internal post mortems of the victims were conducted; the lack of post mortems itself being a jarring anomaly.
No CCTV exists from McDonald’s showing whether Hussain actually used the premises to insert a new 9v battery into his apparently malfunctioning bomb. It was revealed during the inquests that the store manager can be seen on CCTV footage actually turning off the CCTV system before Hussain entered.
No CCTV exists of Hasib Hussain on either of the two buses he is alleged to have boarded. There is no footage of Hussain aboard the number 91 bus, nor the number 30 bus he is alleged to have destroyed, nor is there any street or traffic camera footage showing him boarding either of the buses.
There is a huge discrepancy between the explosives allegedly used, as given in sworn evidence to the Jean Charles de Menezes Inquest, and the evidence that Clifford Todd gave to the 7/7 Inquests. Clearly, not everyone is singing from the same hymn sheet about a significant aspect of 7/7.
There is strong evidence in the public domain to suggest that at the heart of the story behind 7/7 lay at least three operatives for both British and American Intelligence, one of whom served an insanely short period of time in a US prison, before being quietly released, for crimes far greater than the crimes of those his testimonies put behind bars for far longer sentences.
These questions and many, many more can be found on the 7/7 Inquests blog
Without a doubt the State itself will never provide answers to these questions without the dogged persistence of independent researchers in their quests for truth, nor until investigative journalists – if such beings still exist – have the courage to honestly start examining the many unanswered questions that exist and those which are raised by the complete lack of conclusive evidence produced in the story (for that is what a ‘narrative’ is) so far. Until then we’ll all have to put up with the ‘churnalism’ of official State-dictated ‘narratives’ that we have all come to know and despise.
Meanwhile, J7’s quest for the truth about what happened on the day of 7th July 2005 continues.
This kind of BS has been thoroughly debunked, time and again. The above post is just boilerplate PR-speech, and the agenda behind it has been well described:
https://arthurmag.com/2007/09/20/rushkoff-on-911-conspiracy-theorists/
Every time the government tries to run such conspiracies, they get caught sooner or later, usually sooner these days. Otherwise, they’d have planted WMDs in Iraq to justify their invasion, etc.
What you have with these PR efforts, like 9/11 Truth etc. (which was full of Republican PR people), is just a deliberate strategy to take attention off the criminality and incompetence of the US and UK government leaders with respect to their foreign military adventures, relationships with Middle East dictators who finance terrorist groups as proxy armies, and other examples of their general greed, stupidity and banality.
that makes us two more, but let me tell you that I am somewhat pleased they are not able to totally impose 100% of their b#llsh!t on us
It also helps a bit “persuade” those people who aren’t convinced yet about politicians being putridly corrupt and morally deafferented to their core
RCL
and this proves that after fifteen years our government is too stupid to pull out because they are afraid of another Viet Nam….meanwhile how many trillion dollars are being spend in the insane attempt to rule Europe….TRAITORS ONE AND ALL
Interestingly – or not – minimal allusion to False Flag “glue” to and from the roots of so much of this “Continue to Crush The Infidels, A Time Proven Religious (even) Fervor Since the 1200’s Crusades, Now In Its Ninth Century of Seasons’ Best Sellers with Captive Audiences Worldwide: Continue Your Psychotic Wire To The Brain Paying Endlessly For Your Endless Subscription To This Madness At Any And All Costs!”
Count me skeptical the Chilcot report leads to any greater accountability, Glenn, or more than some generally harsh words about Blair’s “short-term insanity” — when Cheney/Bush witchery “turned him into a newt.”
More excellent police work in America:
It looks like this was investigated by the same people that investigated Clinton:
This is actually a good discussion on the future of the EU:
This is rather funny, It’s a US state dept press conference with the talking puppet that is trotted out to not answer journalists’ questions. Check out how he doesn’t want to deal with the question of how Clinton, for years is allowed to divert government communications through her basement.
Will you answer our questions?
Kirby – No, I don’t want to re-litigate that!!! But I’ be happy to repeat my canned response again.
Translation : Clinton adopts Obama administration’s policy of ” Don’t Look Back, Only Look Forward”
And yet again, millions of loyal Democrats, including those who know better, will be fooled again and vote for her despite knowing the truth that voting for her will only be a vote to not change our government’s policies on a whole host of issues.
Be Brave, Vote Independent.
Oh, there’s going to be an “internal review” of Obama’s ex secretary of state Clinton…by Obama’s current secretary of state, Kerry. I’m sure that will be credible.
On an unrelated note, why have so many Americans become cynical about their government?
According to al-Jazeera (July 3, 2016)
“…….Twenty foreign hostages have been killed at a cafe in the Bangladeshi capital, the army has said, in an attack claimed by the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) group that ended after a 10-hour siege when commandos stormed the building…….According to Rezaul Karim, the father of a witness, Hasnat, the gunmen asked everyone inside to recite from the Quran – the Islamic holy book. “Those who recited were spared. The gunmen even gave them meals last night,” he said. The others, he said, “were tortured”…….”
Twenty more people killed because of our “special relationship” with Israel – and our invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan.
And
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Whatever, craigsummers, you’re an ISIS supporter yourself, you’ve said time and again you support ISIS overthrowing Assad because Iran is the greater threat. What people like you and Netanyahu and the Saudi Royals and Obama & Clinton & Kerry believe is that psychotic terrorist groups like ISIS can be covertly financed, armed and controlled to achieve geopolitical aims; the claim is that since this worked against the Soviets in Afghanistan, let’s use the same strategy against Syria.
So what are you complaining about? Trying to whip up a little xenophobic hatred between groups? You and Mona have that in common, as well.
Brilliant idiots, smart enough to tie their own rope, that’s what you and your cohort are, craigsummers – just as blinkered as the ‘liberal’ Democrats who refuse to acknowledge that Obama & Clinton merely picked up where Bush & Condi Rice left off, it’s been almost the identical foreign policy.
Don’t you think this PR approach is pretty ridiculous, repeating your talking points over and over like a broken record? – and that applies to both craigsummers and Mona, who are two of a kind.
Ok, it’s official. You’ve become wholly untethered from the light anchor holding you to the Earth.
Mona may whip up many things, but xenophobia isn’t one of them.
Ha! That’s actually pretty close. I frequently do this workout and other kickboxing routines like it.
You gotta love the “attackers” in the background, jumping from fighting stance to fighting stance, while politely waiting their turn to get their asses kicked. LOL!
Right? I’ve already named most of them for characters found here… ;-)
I now yield the remainder of my comment to Martin Luther King Jr.
I would love to see this speech on TV during the election cycle played right after every Trump & Clinton add reminding voters what Clinton & Trump represent. Endless War.
The biggest laugh is from our criminal leaders when they are chided for not doing any post-invasion planning.
When the goal is spreading terror and chaos, who needs planning?
For them, Destabilisation™ was and always will be ‘The Plan’.
Death squads murdered a large number of lawyers, doctors and teachers under the pretext they belonged to the previous political party.
As the NRA’s new spokesman…I would like to point out that if all the people in the demonstration had been armed, they could have returned fire…it would have been easy, just tell everyone to shoot anyone else they see with a gun!!!
Yes, nothing says you are different from the Conservatives, than in an age of austerity, spending gazillions of pounds on nuclear missiles.
This is good:
Yes the Murdoch press just racked up another win with the brexit referendum, I wonder why the right wingers wanted that? Was it to “end neo-liberalism” like some on the left contend?
I find Tony Blair to be among the most disgustingly repulsive figures I have encountered in my life and my readings. Put him in the clothes of an Imam preaching his beliefs and controls as he does so fervently not for his American paymasters, but instead for the fake caricatures of fundamentalism he pretends to oppose and the West would totally reject his hateful spindoctoring, hawkishness and hypocrisy.
I remember his and New Labours’ election was dramatically celebrated at my new home in the north of England by people thinking they had their own man in power and that he would bring more social justice to England. Instead, he held hands withthe likes of Bush and Cheney and joined in their post-9/11 imperialist killing frenzy, then flounced off to the Middle East as an ambassador to indulge his Christian vanity supposedly trying to heal the wounds of the ages without a hint of irony. He presented the masquerade of being the only viable alternative to the insanities of right-wing politics and paved the way for that lying, hateful murdering sack of shit, Obama and his Democrat crew.
Blair and his ilk in New Labour and across the Pond in the Democrats undermine the very fabric of democracy and social justice that millions have fought and suffered for in the United Kingdom. They are false-flag traitors to all that is good in democratic social movements and are just a Conservative wolf political party in Labour’s sheep clothing.
NOTHING THIS MAN CAN EVER SAY OR DO WILL UNDO HIS HATEFUL CRIMES AND EVERYTHING HE CONTINUES TO SAY AND DO ARE ALL TO FURTHER HIS PAYMASTERS’ AGENDA. REJECT HIM, REVILE HIM AND MAKE HIM SEE JUSTICE.
Notice how he was floated as a possible successor to lead BP? Check out this drivel from the Telegraph.co.uk 2010, after BP’s criminal negligence led to a massive oil blowout in the Gulf of Mexico, on how Blair should lead BP:
As the Chilcott inquiry and released documents make clear, Blair’s cooperation with Bush was all about helping BP and Shell get in on the ‘glittering prize’ of Iraqi oilfields.
http://www.flybynews.com/cgi-local/newspro/viewnews.cgi?newsid1028242388,2864,
Mr. Greenwald
About 5000 western Muslims (mostly from Europe) have traveled to Syria and Iraq to join ISIS. If opposition to western foreign policy was the reason behind this radicalization, then why not stay at home and kill (mostly) indigenous Europeans? Instead they fight with ISIS which targets and kills mostly Muslims. So how does that work? Muslims oppose western interference in Muslim majority countries and the killing of Muslim women and children. Muslims opposed the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan. Muslims oppose western support for their special little friend, Israel…….so western Muslims go off to join ISIS which kills mostly Muslim women and children. Kind of an odd response, don’t you think?
A poll conducted by the 8TH ANNUAL ASDA’A BURSON-MARSTELLER ARAB YOUTH SURVEY (Institute for Social Policy and Understanding of young Arabs) in 2014 rejected the number one reason given by Greenwald that young Arabs join terrorist organizations: our support for Israel and the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan i.e., attacks against the west are simply blowback from western policies.
The number one reason given for joining ISIS was the unemployment picture followed by superiority of religious views (Sunnis) and third by sectarian tensions throughout the region. The imposition of western values on the Arab world came in number four which likely indicates opposition to globalization by fundamentalists Muslims.
The idea of US foreign policy i.e., killing Muslims and supporting Israel, as the cause of terrorism was originally promoted by Bin Laden and al-Qaeda – and continues to be falsely promoted (in service to terrorists) by the radical left. The survey of Arab youth paints a much different picture.
As noted by the survey authors of the Arab youth study:
“……What drives young people to join a brutal, ultra-radical group like Daesh? Since its recent rise in Syria, and Iraq in 2013, the group declared war primarily on fellow Muslims.…..”
Muslims join ISIS to kill mostly Muslims – because of our special relationship with Israel. It is just so much easier to blame terrorism on the west rather than look into the real causes.
If Muslims join ISIS to kill other Muslims, then that does not imply that some ISIS members, or sympathizers, or those who are just plain nuts, do not also commit terrorist attacks in the west that target non-Muslims for the reason discussed in this article. For God’s sake, man, do think ISIS terrorism in the west really targets Mosques, but the perpetrators missed?
ISIS has retaliated against the US and Europe specifically because we are bombing them in Syria and Iraq. But that has nothing to do with our support for Israel, or our invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan (the primary reasons for Muslim related terrorism according to Greenwald).
Yeah, radical left terror supporters such as these folk:
And
My God Mona. You are a broken record. I have responded to this bullshit with two different posts – but especially in my first post to the one and only Mr. Greenwald. You need to become a little more creative and respond to the survey which points out quite dramatically why Arab youth become terrorists – contradicting Greenwald’s assertion. It is just far left wing propaganda. Is there any real difference between what Bin Laden says and what Greenwald says. Both are simply about justifying terrorism against the west.
Greenwald:
“……Indeed, much of that US violence is grounded in if not expressly justified by religion, including the aggressive attack on Iraq and steadfast support for Israeli aggression (to say nothing of the role Judaism plays in the decades-long oppression by the Israelis of Palestinians and all sorts of attacks on neighboring Arab and Muslim countries)…….”
“….. It likely won’t be in the form that has received the most media attention: the type of large Predator or Reaper drones that shoot Hellfire missiles which destroy homes and cars in Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia, Afghanistan and multiple other countries aimed at Muslims…..”
“….I’m most certainly not suggesting that anyone who supports Awlaki’s killing is driven by racism or anti-Muslim bigotry. I am suggesting that the belief that Muslims are somehow less American, or even less human, is widespread….”
“….spending decades bombing, invading, occupying, droning, interfering in, imposing tyranny on, and creating lawless prisons in other countries generates intense anti-American and anti-western rage (for obvious reasons) and ensures that those western nations will be attacked as well…..”
“……It’s in the world of reality, not conspiracy, where the US and Israel have continuously brought extreme amounts of violence to the Muslim world, routinely killing their innocent men, women and children. Listening to Engel, one would never know about tiny little matters like the bombing of Gaza and Lebanon, the almost five-decade long oppression of Palestinians, the widely hated, child-killing drone campaign, or the attack on Iraq…..”
Bin Laden:
“……Thus the American people have chosen, consented to, and affirmed their support for the Israeli oppression of the Palestinians, the occupation and usurpation of their land, and its continuous killing, torture, punishment and expulsion of the Palestinians…….”
“……The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq. These tax dollars are given to Israel for it to continue to attack us and penetrate our lands. So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against us, and they are the ones who oversee the expenditure of these monies in the way they wish, through their elected candidates……”
“…….Also the American army is part of the American people. It is this very same people who are shamelessly helping the Jews fight against us……”
“…….The American people are the ones who employ both their men and their women in the American Forces which attack us……”
“…….This is why the American people cannot be not innocent of all the crimes committed by the Americans and Jews against us……”
“…….Allah, the Almighty, legislated the permission and the option to take revenge. Thus, if we are attacked, then we have the right to attack back. Whoever has destroyed our villages and towns, then we have the right to destroy their villages and towns. Whoever has stolen our wealth, then we have the right to destroy their economy. And whoever has killed our civilians, then we have the right to kill theirs…….”
By “bullshit” you mean this?
And
That bullshit, craig? Reports from British military and intelligence chiefs and the U.S. Defense Science Board to Rumsfeld?
No, I don’t think so. Nope. You have not debunked or otherwise undermined British military and intelligence chiefs or the Defense Science Board’s report to Rumsfeld.
Care to try again?
Yes, and Turkey gave them passports, and CIA training camps taught them how to use weapons, and Israel and Saudi Arabia helped supply the weapons and the cash, all so Assad could be overthrown?
It takes a lot of idiots cooperating over years to create a disaster like ISIS, doesn’t it?
Let’s not forget what the real agenda was, either:
http://davidstockmanscontracorner.com/the-backstory-in-ukraine-syria-iraq-and-iran-battles-about-natural-gas-and-pipelines/
Funny how some commentators are so eager to deny the link between Middle East fossil fuel production, transport and sale, and US-UK military adventurism across the region, isn’t it?
Notwithstanding that the ‘survey’ was conducted by a public relations firm with political clientèle such as Tony Blair, Bill Clinton, Michael Bloomberg, and Hillary Clinton, your premise is completely faulty, in that it misattributes the major cause of terrorism in the region (western policies) with its effect (social and political injustice).
That the youth in the survey attribute the primary reason for joining terror groups to be because of the direct effects of these western policies doesn’t negate the fact that it was the western policies that created and exacerbated the social and political injustices that they say are behind terror in the first place.
In other words, disregarding whatever it is that you think Glenn thinks about the cause of terrorism and the reason(s) for joining in on it, you’ve made the claim that terrorism isn’t the fault of western policies, but that terrorism and the ongoing attraction to it are because of the circumstances created by these western nations actions in the region.
These two things are one and the same.
And fittingly today the news that the UK is sending troops to Eastern Europe to counter the “Russian threat”. Want to start collecting evidence?
No need. It will be a cakewalk. Be over in six weeks. Maybe less.
Both Nate and Mona are so very hateable — Mona serving as part time murderers’ shill… Nate working full time… then there’s Doug in training… all apparently full time American commenters pretending to be almost civilized. Disgusting. But this is for Nate.
Here’s something for you to consider, hack: you don’t like how the Islamic State murders with wanton disregard the heretics and nonbelievers, so you responded by shipping them weapons.
That’s some crack realpolitik, but has that strategy ever worked for anyone but the salesmen?
I realize you are comfortable with your reputation for stupidity, but regardless, you need to be reminded that IS is your responsibility, so shut the fuck up with your bullshit propaganda already? (Just thought it worth asking. Somebody should.) IS is your baby, whelped by your unprovoked destruction of a region which had nothing to do with what inspired that wanton butchery. And speaking of stupidity, a symptom of it is this transparently dumb career of yours. For example, you are tasked with mouthing the words: The US ‘intervenes’. IS ‘beheads, rapes, commits genocide, manipulates Sunnis, suicide bombs, and enslaves’. ‘Intervening is good’, even when it cannot be explained by anyone but christian nutters and destroys the lives of millions in all sorts of bloody ways. IS, your offspring, is bad. I suggest bloody and simple minded you and every one else who gave birth to your hideous child go put it down yourselves. Yes, you. Go. On your own two trillion dollars, not mine. But of course you cannot succeed without Russia’s help, yet you are too daft to cooperate with them. (You fuckwits are too busy piling up gear on their western border to entertain an even more asinine military fantasy. Good luck with that one too.)
Irrational patriot-murderers such as yourself created this clusterfuck, ignoring copious quantities of rational advice freely given in 2002 and 2003 (nobody needs puffed up twits repeating the same warnings fourteen years too late at an outrageous markup). You are a goddamned terrorist who needs to experience a bit of the same discomforts you have inflicted on so many others, all because God put the idea in another bloodthirsty moron’s gut. Shut up and go spend some quality time with your family.
So visceral! So much anger! And curse words too, oh my!!
But the feeling isn’t mutual Stanley, I don’t hate you. It isn’t personal. If I had to describe your biggest fault, delivered in the compliment sandwich format, I’d say: “Though you do a good job clacking keys that result in the display of comprehensible words on a screen, the contents of your posts are truly terrible, but…um….” Sorry, could only find one slice of bread.
Some highlights from a highly entertaining read:
* Yours truly is apparently a spokesperson for “America,” an arms dealer, and a multi-trillionaire.
* You adopted Mona’s term du jour, “fuckwit.” Ha.
* Being called an “irrational patriot-murder” and “a goddamned terrorist” gave me a chuckle (I imagined both being said in a Clint Eastwood, Gran Torino-style voice). Just proves Glenn’s point that there is no standardized definition of the term “terrorism.” One man’s “murder of civilians for political purposes” is another man’s “disagreeable post in the TI comments section.”
* Your list of hate-inspiring TI commentators is growing. It reminds me of this quote: “If you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. If you run into assholes all day, you’re the asshole.”
* This quote: “I suggest bloody and simple minded you and every one else who gave birth to your hideous child go put it down yourselves.” Is it common for more than one person to birth a single “hideous child”?
* The part about being too daft to cooperate with Russia really resonated with me. I called Putin immediately.
* Suggesting I “Shut up and go spend some quality time with your family” was an interesting way to conclude your rant. But I will admit that devising a good end-piece is tough!
Thanks for the post, Stan. If TI had a Comment Hall of Fame, this would be at the top of the trophy case.
@Nate-Vietnam, Iran-Contra, torture, OBM on CIA payroll, 9/11 and on and on….. If you can’t see how our government has fucked us, you have your head up your ass! If you are a patriotic American this should outrage you! If your not your opinion means nothing….
Aside from the “OBL on CIA payroll” (unsubstantiated allegations) and my unwillingness to assign full blame to the government for 9/11, I agree that those are indeed shameful moments in U.S. history.
“my unwillingness to assign full blame to the government for 9/11,”
Your “unwillingness” is most likely the inability to assign blame because you do not understand the way in which the world functions. Don’t worry, you’re not alone …
Not an inability. The Clinton administration botched opportunities to get OBL and the Bush administration downplayed the threat and couldn’t connect critical dots. Hence: their share of the blame.
You know who else shares some blame? The perpetrators.
I’m sure that elicited an audible gasp.
“You know who else shares some blame? The perpetrators.”
You are the color-blind arguing green and red colors do not exist; it’s all just brown, as you can see plainly …
Nate epitomizes why we have a representative form of government instead of democracy.
Um, we are both a representative democracy and a constitutional democracy.
Your color blind reference could use some work.
“Your color blind reference could use some work.”
Beautiful response, Nate.
You, by definition, are colorblind to the fact you do not have the expertise to know when you are being lied to. (The colorblind analogy was for the board as, well, you know …) The same may be said of your dismissal of 9/11 with the”perpetrators” did it. In other words, you saw it happen and it makes sense, regardless of whether what you see is an accurate representation of reality. That you have the inability to even discuss high-school level physics or math is quite amazing for someone who knows what they see.
“we are both a representative democracy and a constitutional democracy.”
In other words, a Republic. A republic based upon democratic principles and procedures but we are in no way a Democracy.
The simple fact that the Electoral College elects the president, despite the popular vote, is ample evidence the USA is not a democracy.
Did they not cover this in high-school history or government?
The only rational response from you, Nate, is to acknowledge you were not up on the way your government functions. Now you know. Wait; now you’ve been told. I still have my doubts as to your ability to learn new things or re-learn old things you should’ve known.
I subscribe to this view:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/05/13/is-the-united-states-of-america-a-republic-or-a-democracy/
@Nate-oh but those are just a few! No reasonable person can trust ANY group after doing said moments. There is no public trust for the government, none. A reasonable person has to assume the government is going to continue to put us (Americans &foriegners) in danger, continue to represent un-American beliefs, continue its treasonous conduct, thus assume those “unsubstantiated allegations” are facts among many many more of that nature and worse.
Hillary’s email affair is the perfect example of the complete separation those in the US government have from civilians. A status I believe is treasonous
I’m not a mass murderer like you, Nate. I could only aspire to be as civil as you people, but I’m too lazy to try.
And no, Murderous Mona is not my muse, fuckwit. You don’t get much right, do you? It is a good thing for you and your career that it’s the effort that counts, not shitty results.
“Fuckwit”, is something I picked up while working at BBC News Online between 2002-2005. It’s something I was muttering about Bush and Blair while strolling to work in late July 2005 above the Central Line near the Shepherd’s Bush station after the Tube had been emptied due to a failed bombing on a hot day. A bombing inspired by your heroic patriotism in Iraq, of course. You fucks have my deepest gratitude. Thanks for your tirelessly creative destruction.
I’m a mass murderer, yet inexplicably civil. Trying to visualize this: When I turn the lever opening the bomb door, I do so with grace and a friendly smile.
Your continued use of “fuckwit” indicates otherwise. And “Murderous Mona” is a nice touch. Imagine if Mona and I were to reconcile our differences; the chaos and carnage that would ensue would be magnificent!
Didn’t ask for your biography Stan.
How nice of you; you’re welcome! And you say you only aspire to be civil. Stanley, you modest little rascal!!
— “Imagine if Mona and I were to reconcile our differences…”
Vermin have been known to nibble on each other once in a while.
I did not give you a biography, which would be an interesting one you would prefer not be read by anyone, as it would reflect rather poorly on your own character. I briefly explained in a civil tone where I picked up the ‘fuckwit’ expression. But I understand patriots exaggerate and create fact-free, custom realities. Which brings up a related matter: why would anyone want or need to suppress justified arrogance towards exceptional Americans like you?
Stan is a very sad, likely mental health case, who claims:
In saying that Stan is probably mentally ill I am absolutely not hurling a cheap Internet insult. Stan imagines that he is one of these poor unfortunates. He is deeply angry with me for pointing out that his delusions of being “remotely tortured,” “gangstalked” and the like are just that– paranoid delusions.
As that article I link indicates, if people like Stan do not get proper help they can end up murderously ill. For reasons that that article also makes clear, this venue attracts an especially large number of these sick people.
Nate has more integrity than you, Mona. At least he is honest about what he is.
I do not need to take care to qualify my statements about you with “very likely” and other mealy mouthed crap since you documented your enthusiastic support for US torture programs with this and have expressed wishes that I and others die tragically on several occasions. You repeatedly make it clear you are more than a little demented, dear girl. (Are you married? The horror…)
If the American Torture Community decided to give you a taste you would be screaming. The proof you are a murderous fraud is the fact Stasi goons don’t touch you. Why is that? Is it because you live in the land of free and brave people who are not attacked by Stasi murderers after expressing reasoned opinions? Please. You perform errands for murderers, but targets who do not have the technical chops to hack your personal life cannot know from your online activity whether you do it out of patriotic fervor or money (or both). Your attacks on torture subjects are tantamount to a declaration “American’s Don’t Torture”. That’s a proven lie, a dumb thing to repeatedly say, and pitiable, but it is difficult to pity a murderers’ errand girl.
Please post the address of where you hang that “Zersetzung Support with Faux Dissent Services” shingle so some of your country’s surviving torture subjects can pay you a personal visit for a real diagnosis. It would give you an opportunity to prove you have the proper training and credentials and assure us we’ve come to the right place. You could also give yourself a second opinion, and we’d just love to meet you in person. We would get to see what you really know instead of what you can copy/paste.
Never happened. Never. You don’t quote or link to it because it never happened. Unlike most here, however, I don’t think you are entirely responsible for your words, and so am not especially angry at that calumny.
Stan, you claim are a “Targeted Individual,” one of the sad and usually mentally ill people the New York Times recently wrote about: United States of Paranoia: They See Gangs of Stalkers
Your paranoid beliefs are not benign — they can destroy lives and have led to murder:
Your delusions are not real and I sincerely hope you seek and get helpful mental health treatment.
(I’ve spoken with multiple people who speak publicly about national security issues and whistleblowing, and several report that “Targeted Individuals” have shown up at these events to demand attention. Names well known to all here report that security has had to be called. These deluded people can be dangerous.)
No cheap insult there as -Mona-, Glenn’s former law partner, goes straight for defamation of character.
But then, who better to judge another’s character than -Mona-? With her family history of mental illness, she’s knows it when she sees it … and therefore she also has the right to project herself.
No one is as disruptive to this board as -Mona-.
Will the mods not offer the door to -Mona-?
but then
True — I am Glenn’s former law partner. From that you may conclude that I well understand defamation law. I further know that “Targeted Individuals” are very likely to be mentally ill. For the reasons in the links I have provided — the evidence is overwhelming.
And also true — my deceased brother was a paranoid schizophrenic. In Targeted Individuals I see my brother’s paranoid symptoms. No one who has endured the horror of family members who are severely mentally ill can or should take this “Targeted individual” epidemic lightly.
This is a serious issue — lives are being destroyed, and people are even being murdered. You should not be encouraging Stan to do anything else but get psychiatric help — as my links show, the web sites where these unfortunates congregate they reject psychiatrists as part of “the plots” against them.
Or perhaps you think this that Stan just posted are the statements of a mind moored in reality:
He and his pals used to post lots and lots of material like that, and even more bizarre stuff (much of which was deleted and the commenters banned because they were overrunning the place). Stuff like this from one “Pat B.”:
So, nuf said, I would strongly suggest you not encourage these poor souls in believing that in rejecting their delusions, and encouraging them to seek professional help, I am wrong.
“Never happened. Never. ” Some copy/paste work… Associating me with Pat B… Myron May… Nanodevices vibrating cervical lymph nodes at will… nerve pain endings are excited all night… Crawling insects… pumped my legs and arms so full of nanodevices …
And another link to that weak NYT disinfo — the sure mark of the bottom feeder.
For years, I have stated repeatedly and consistently: I have been stalked, harassed, robbed, and physically tortured with low tech implements in barber shops and medical labs by goons you repeatedly defend in this thread. Even today, you provide ample evidence you are a torturer’s apprentice. Being tortured is as real as it gets, you murderous little princess. And there are many people out there who know which one of us has lost her grip on reality.
Many people are being attacked in similar ways. I know one commenter on this thread who is also under attack, as we have been stalked by NYC’s finest while comparing notes. But I will respect the rules and not mention his name. Back you, Mona, the bottom feeder — instead of merely insisting I made it all up you spew rote script. Very unoriginal. You could at least try to twist my own words instead of projecting others’ words on me. I know the American lawyer’s primary duty is hone the art of making an argument for anything, but there is a limit, even for a American Fuckwits.
You work here full time. Are you that lazy? Very sloppy.
You are a congenital liar, a fraud, and a murderers’ tool with a weird way of entertaining yourself.
Still waiting for you to be brave little patriot and post your psychiatrist-quack office’s address for torture subjects who have never met each other, yet coincidentally suffer the same delusions about being attacked by your Stasi goon allies on a daily basis.
“Or perhaps you think this that Stan just posted are the statements of a mind moored in reality:”
It is not for you to trash people who are not harming anything.
Stan made a post that I took as a statement of profound angst. He was attempting to commiserate with others. He was reaching out and you piled on because you need a lightening rod to strike.
I see you as an abuser. That you re-post PatB as proof of ANYTHING … It’s an attempt to smear someone with association. All in a day’s work for Glenn’s former law partner …
You’ve used that technique before, chastising Macroman for agreeing with a comment I made. Killing the Messenger should have been covered in Law School … but then lawyering is all about bluffing, isn’t it.
Torture does cause profound angst, just ask any torture subject — take your pick. It’s a non-controversial fact Americans have created a surfeit of them and they are not hard to locate. There is one other who has posted on this thread. You see? You have crossed paths with two American torture subjects just today!
But I prefer to characterize it as annoyance as often as I am able.
One thing cannot be spun: Mona is very well adjusted. She is a perfect fit for her disreputable vocation.
That’s not an answer. Again, do you think this that Stan just posted comprises the statements of a mind moored in reality:
And now his fevered mind adss this:
Well? Stan is one of many who have swamped this board, and one of hundreds of thousands of very sick people hanging out at hundreds of sites online. Do you think they are of sound mind, or should they get some help?
Pat and Stan are friends on these boards, and gave each other much support when Pat was commenting here. Stan agrees with Pat, and that what Pat experiences is real. And, really, that last paragraphs of Stan’s about being “tortured with low tech implements in barber shops and medical labs” by “Stasi goons.” You think that’s not just as far out there as Pat’s imaginings?
Do you think these unfortunate people should be encouraged in these dangerous delusions, or should all decent people be encouraging them to seek professional mental health services?
Now, I’m replying to you on all of this for the benefit of other readers, and not for you. You are not a decent person, which is why, as you note, I chastised Macroman for partnering with you in agreement that I was mistreating you.
As you know, long-time commenter Gator will not reply to you because you are an actual antisemite — not the bullshit kind the Zionists rant about. The real deal.
I have informed people of this fact multiple times and that pisses you off. Too bad, so sad — I won’t be stopping any time soon.
“Pat and Stan are friends on these boards, and gave each other much support when Pat was commenting here. Stan agrees with Pat, and that what Pat experiences is real.”
Lie 1: “Pat and Stan are friends on these boards”
Lie 2: “and gave each other much support when Pat was commenting here”
Lie 3: “Stan agrees with Pat”
Lie 4: “and that what Pat experiences is real”
Just how many lies can you stuff into a single page?
Are you saying you were not supportively interacting with Pat when s/he posted here? Are you further saying s/he was inauthentic?
I certainly recall you as one of the many who was on board with what Pat posted, and offering your own “stories” about being “tortured ” (similar to what you’ve posted here today) just as s/he is. Are you denying that ever happened?
I certainly do not recall you or any other self-identified TI dismissing another — including Pat — as inauthentic.
“Are you saying you were not supportively interacting with Pat when s/he posted here? Are you further saying s/he was inauthentic?”
Absolutely.
I was not supportively interacting with Pat’s talk of DEW, nano-torture, etc, because I have not experienced anything like it during a decade and a half of attacks on my person, as I have repeatedly stated. This kind talk has always had the Stasi’s stench, like a plate of rotten eggs, and I have err’d on the side of caution, to the point of unwisely dismissing reminders of old, documented MKUltra evidence, and the certain knowledge US military and law enforcement organizations attract quite a few of the country’s psychopaths — today, this minute — people eager to use anything on anyone they don’t like, especially if their bosses give them cash and orders to follow.
I am not proud I did it, but I insulted him on numerous occasions for posting what I believed was crazy talk intended to discredit people reporting actual, serious abuses you insist do not occur. I perceived him to be posting crazy talk in attempt to associate it with me — as is your habit — soon after I posted descriptions of my experiences, and I bashed him for it. Repeatedly. I specifically said he was a fake, a decoy. That is what I believed, without actually meeting him and seeing the evidence (“burns” and “marks”) for myself. I have also harshly criticized a few others who refused to meet me in person — on my nickel, to show me the evidence — in an effort to take care I don’t behave like you towards those who are really being attacked. (When they refused to meet me I wrote them off as shit shovelers.)
Are you sincerely convinced COINTELPRO ended in the 1970s? Are you that naive, or just casually lying out of an unbreakable habit?
If you really think it stopped, quit reading. Don’t answer the question. Your refusal to answer the simple question will be understood to mean you believe COINTELPRO type abuses ended about forty years ago.
If you think COINTELPRO continues in another form — FYI: it’s modeled on the dead DDR’s international image conscious Zersetzung program, but with more money, technology, and popular support — do you believe there is some metric of celebrity or a minimum cash balance marking the lower boundary of interest to the Stasi’s Zersetzung goons? If so, do tell. What is this metric and how did you come to be in possession such information? If you speculate only celebrity activists are targeted, please explain your reasoning? If you think you can psycho-evaluate me then don’t be shy, give us your analysis of the Torture Community’s rank and file.
If you sincerely think Zersetzung torture squads are not attacking inncoent dissidents with impunity in and outside the US you are very uninformed about your country and the American Character, which if exposed, would embarrass even you. If you know it is going on, well, you know what I and other actual targets think about that.
I don’t think so, Stan, I just did some spot checking from threads a year and more ago, and you never disagreed with Pat, or admonished him/her in any way. I find not one instance of any of you claiming another was inauthentic. Not. One.
In fact, you posted tons of truly unhinged rants that got you banned by Glenn, Cora Currier and Micah Lee — all authors here, along with others of this “Targeted Individual” gang. (I was able to recall that this was so after checking my email from the period when several other readers here were contacting me and Glenn in a group email chain and begging that “something be done” about all of you TIs flooding comments with crazy talk.)
You and others haven’t been banned yet again because you’ve all toned down the volume as well as the crazy — except that you’ve unleashed a good deal of it in this sub-thread. Much of the worst from 12-24 months ago was deleted — I only have the above text of Pat’s because I included it in an email to Glenn who deleted it, and from my email I added it to the Targeted Individual article at Rational Wiki.
Last summer I did do some bad and inhuman things by mocking you with snarky comments that I was “ZAPPPING” you with electronic torture devices and “sending Stasi teams” who were about to show at your door. That was wrong of me, because on some level you believe all of these horrible things really are happening to you.
So please Stan, get help.
“I don’t think so, Stan, I just did some spot checking from threads a year and more ago, and you never disagreed with Pat, or admonished him/her in any way. I find not one instance of any of you claiming another was inauthentic. Not. One.”
It isn’t hard to prove you are a liar. The proof is listed below, with only one of the links, due to the TI policy. Article titles and dates are given in other instances, for anyone interested in evidence of your serial dishonesty.
Spying on Congress and Israel: NSA Cheerleaders Discover Value of Privacy Only When Their Own Is Violated
Glenn Greenwald 2015-12-30T19:02:52+00:00
https://theintercept.com/2015/12/30/spying-on-congress-and-israel-nsa-cheerleaders-discover-value-of-privacy-only-when-their-own-is-violated/?comments=1#comments
——————–
Pat B. Dec. 31 2015, 4:16 p.m. @Adam Smash
[“… However, for those who are new here, I’d like to refer them to a ‘url’ that illustrates the point:
…
Link to now defunct and discredited FFCHS story about ‘nanodevices-in-sensory-overload-mind-control-torture’ omitted.
…
Please refer others to this ‘url’ so that no one will say they did not know. And let everyone, in Europe, the Americas, China, Asia, Russia and all of Africa, know what awaits them all at the hands of US torturers…”]
——————–
Me: “Torturestan -> Pat B. Dec. 31 2015, 4:36 p.m.
FFCHS is an obvious disinfo vehicle.”
———————
Pat B. Dec. 31 2015, 6:49 p.m. @Torturestan
” Ihave a vested interest in calling out disinfo. ”
Calling out disinfo ON WHOSE BEHALF, is the question that everyone knows the answer to. But the real reason you call the truth, disinfo, is a direct measure of how our exposures of your crimes – crimes so gross that America’s external enemies, state and individual actors alike – could not fathom inflicting on the U. S., are eating away at the torture community as a whole.
This makes you all the worst enemies and the most treasonous to the very identity of America.
Your discrediting campaign is also a vain attempt at damage control, but you are too late. You perps and your treasonous masters never saw the avalanche rolling down the mountain. Just like you appear to have no penchant to see anything coming at all.
Asian websites ALREADY have multitudes of documentation of these crimes. The United Nations. The EU. China. Russia. South America. Canada. Central America. Not to mention the Middle East where possibly millions are tortured in this way. And more. All in all, few have any illusions about what America truly is beyond the facade.
You keep insisting on the low tech used. All you accomplish in doing that is expose the low-information attribute of yourself, as well As your criminal levels of ignorance about revolutionary technologies in the weapons industry, and how those weapons technologies are used to torture innocent individuals.
You lost before the fight even began. Perp. Go torture another pregnant woman out there and jerk off while she writhes in pain.
———————
Torturestan -> Pat B. Dec. 31 2015, 7:12 p.m.
Yeah, I’m the perp here. I’m torturing a pregnant woman tonight at 8pm, and another at 10pm, if you really need to know. At midnight I’m going to try out the latest cloaking device at our gang’s New Year’s Eve party. Maybe FightGangStalking.com will write it up a review of this new gadget soon.
But seriously, to answer your question, I have a vested interest in calling out disinfo on my own behalf. My motivation is pure self interest, nothing else. It’s my survival instincts at work. For some reason they were not bred out of me, but not for lack of trying, American. Pisses you off, doesn’t it?
—————————
Pat B. Dec. 31 2015, 7:33 p.m. @Torturestan
“Yeah, I’m the perp here. I’m torturing a pregnant woman tonight at 8pm, and another at 10pm, if you really need to know. At midnight I’m going to try out the latest cloaking device at our gang’s New Year’s Eve party. Maybe FightGangStalking.com will write it up a review of this new gadget soon. ”
Honesty is not an attribute normally found in perps. But thanks for the confession. Now the whole world knows for sure.
————
Torturestan -> Pat B. Dec. 31 2015, 9:05 p.m.
You misquoted me, increasingly frustrated disinfo guy.
From a draft (got a copy already, don’t you?):
“This book is a one-way communication path form me to the interested reader, unpolluted by disinformation agents falling back on the oldest and most commonly used tactics in their toolkit. Torture subjects like me can rely on no one but themselves so it is up to us to help ourselves. Nil is the likelihood that even one of the perpetrators will come forward with confessions, evidence in the form of torture design documents, or some other form of audit trail of their activities, because there is no precedent for such behavior within American spy and torture organizations The character types lured to this line of work do not suffer sudden fits of honesty and civil courage. Such an event would be a Black Swan.”
See you around, I’m sure.
——————————
“Pat B. Dec. 31 2015, 9:35 p.m. @Torturestan
” Nil is the likelihood that even one of the perpetrators will come forward with confessions, evidence in the form of torture design documents, or some other form of audit trail of their activities, because there is no precedent for such behavior within American spy and torture organizations The character types lured to this line of work do not suffer sudden fits of honesty and civil courage. Such an event would be a Black Swan.” ”
Please tell US more about ” torture design documents ” !
While you are at it, do not forget to inform on the ” audit trail of their activities ” !
And did you say that your lot ” do not suffer sudden fits of honesty and civil courage ” ?
And did you say you know more about ” spy and torture organizations ” ?
Do you realize just how much of what you trade in you have revealed here today?
Your handlers sure as hell must be proud of you now.”
Here’s one I regret posting, but is consistent with my earlier claim to have err’d on the side of caution when people who interact with me mention Robert Duncan and DEW related ‘crazy talk’ — as I perceived it. Though I regret posting it, it does serve as further proof of your dishonesty.
INSIDE NSA, OFFICIALS PRIVATELY CRITICIZE “COLLECT IT ALL” SURVEILLANCE
Peter Maass May 28 2015, 12:38 p.m.
NameWithheld -> Stan
May 29 2015, 3:43 p.m.
Noy to mention the American Stasi’s use of ‘electronic zersetzung.’ That’s the American police state’s contribution to extrajudicial punishment. Dr. Robert Duncan says the electronic torture is one grand experiment played by
the CIA with ‘game theory’ — to play to the end.http://www.drrobertduncan.com/dr-robert-duncans-neuropsychological-and-electronic-no-touch-torture-report.html
There has to be something about this in Snowden docs. Please dig in.
——————————
Stan -> NameWithheld
May 29 2015, 5:04 p.m.
Stasi pest, too afraid to meet me person.
——————————
NameWithheld -> Stan
May 29 2015, 6:14 p.m.
I’ll see you at the Congressional hearing, deal?
——————————
Stan -> Stan
May 29 2015, 10:41 p.m.
That is as meaningful as telling an atheist you will see him in heaven… Deal?
Look forward to seeing the burns on your DEW buddies here in the Bay Area soon.
LAWSUIT DEMANDS INFORMATION ON SHADOWY “COUNTERING VIOLENT EXTREMISM” PROGRAMS IN U.S.
Murtaza Hussain Feb. 11 2016, 8:30 p.m.
The exchange below is me (again) trying to put distance between myself and someone who I perceived as a crazy-talk-decoy. Note my rather disrespectful question: “What are you?” But of course I could be wrong about stalked562.
Regardless, it provides further proof of your dishonesty.
stalked562 -> anonymous Feb. 12 2016, 2:14 p.m.
No Journalist, No Politician will touch this topic out of fear.
COINTELPRO STASI
Their budget is too big.
Their technology capabilities too advanced.
—————————–
stalked562 -> stalked562 Feb. 12 2016, 2:34 p.m.
COINTELPRO MKULTRA
Money maker for FBI / DHS and Contractors.
Program extends to other countries, globally. Incorporate the use of RF weapons and the picture becomes bleak.
—————————–
Stan -> stalked562 Feb. 13 2016, 12:26 a.m.
Do you have a name?
Why have you followed my posts for years?
Why do you suggest intellectually stunted Stasi scum is “too advanced”, and the situation is too “bleak”? Remember, the DDR’s version of the Stasi didn’t know what hit them until it was already over. Did you forget that? Or did you never even know that? (Stasi filth is notoriously ignorant of their kind’s history.)
Why do you suggest targets give up? What are you?
I have provided below proof you can’t keep your lying shit straight.
You have provided me ample evidence you are guilty beyond any doubt of public collaboration with assassins.
Carry on. You are a practicing American psychopath and (ex?) lawyer who knows all too well you live in a country with no law, so go ahead and take advantage of total impunity to indulge your sadistic hobby without fear of consequences. It would be pointless to turn yourself in to a law enforcement institution which would refuse you service at the door. They’re too busy getting their hands dirty doing the grunt work.
Have a really nice day.
I answered your question. You did not answer mine. Instead you posted more lies, so in response to your act of bad faith I won’t accept your non answer for you being convinced COINTELPRO ended in the 1970s.
I ask again.
Q 1. Are you sincerely convinced COINTELPRO ended in the 1970s? Are you that naive, or just casually lying out of an unbreakable habit?
Q 2. If you think COINTELPRO continues in another form — FYI: it’s modeled on the dead DDR’s international image conscious Zersetzung program, but with more money, technology, and popular support — do you believe there is some metric of celebrity or a minimum cash balance marking the lower boundary of interest to the Stasi’s Zersetzung goons? If so, do tell. What is this metric and how did you come to be in possession such information? If you speculate only celebrity activists are targeted, please explain your reasoning? I f you think you can psycho-evaluate me then don’t be shy, give us your analysis of the Torture Community’s rank and file.
You don’t lack the energy needed to wallpaper these comment threads. Simply answer the questions and try not to default to begging TI to “do something” about banning discussion of extra judicial torture and murder by the american state — rather serious crimes you are enthusiastically supporting.
Wow, just wow, You sure enough did think Pat was posting “disinfo,” but you did not doubt her claims to being tortured. You simply disagree with the sites she found credible — you felt they were fake sites set up by “them” with take Targeted Individuals whose role is to discredit TIs who are tortured, gang-stalked etc.
Stan, I’ll just step away now and let any (of the very few, if any) readers who care to pore though your unhinged rantings determine for themselves whether you are mentally healthy.
And, again, you’ve been banned before by Glenn and at last two other Intercept writers for flooding their comments with this “Targeted individual” psychosis. So let’s not post any more of it here, ok? There’s enough now for folks to get the idea, especially of the follow my links.
‘PLese, Stan, GET SOME HELP.
I did think Pat was posting “disinfo” but I did not doubt her claims to being tortured? When I say “FFCHS is an obvious disinfo vehicle” I am doubting the person referencing it. You have some problematic reading comprehension skills.
You lied again, and again avoided the questions:
Q 1. Are you sincerely convinced COINTELPRO ended in the 1970s? Are you that naive, or just casually lying out of an unbreakable habit?
Q 2. If you think COINTELPRO continues in another form — FYI: it’s modeled on the dead DDR’s international image conscious Zersetzung program, but with more money, technology, and popular support — do you believe there is some metric of celebrity or a minimum cash balance marking the lower boundary of interest to the Stasi’s Zersetzung goons? If so, do tell. What is this metric and how did you come to be in possession such information? If you speculate only celebrity activists are targeted, please explain your reasoning? I f you think you can psycho-evaluate me then don’t be shy, give us your analysis of the Torture Community’s rank and file.
Instead of answering them you say you want to beg Ody’s gang to make it stop.
You are so dishonest. Further proof of your dishonesty follows:
https://theintercept.com/2015/08/07/psychologists-work-gchq-deception-unit-inflames-debate-among-peers/?comments=1#comment-157637
You supported her many, many claims about herself — no matter what one specific web site or other she quoted that you think is “disinfo.” You did not doubt her when she wrote:
NEVER — not once — over the course of the many months, even a year — that Pat commented here did you doubt that her personal claims were inauthentic. Indeed, can you think of ANY of the hordes of TIs who once infested this site whom you did openly doubt about their personal claims?
Stan, Pat’s is crazy talk. She also wrote about having to sleep on a bed of ice at night because “they” are remotely torturing her with some sort of burning implement. You didn’t doubt her when she wrote that, either. Or ANY OF THE OTHER TI’s WHO WROTE EQUALLY CRAZY STUFF– your own laments, as this thread shows, are also way, way out there. (Some of you have carried on conversations about there being “fake” TIs putting out “disinformation” — but have not said that any TI here is inauthentic.)
You do harbor a view that “the cabal” is setting up fake websites to discredit you, but there are no criteria a reasonable person could use to see how you determine this. They all appear to be equally batshit.
There is no evidence these horrors are being applied to all these poor unfortunates online who claim to be Targeted Individuals. None. But some of these scary, suffering people have had to be handled by security when they angrily seek out well-known national security activists and/or whistleblower defenders at their speaking events.
Sane, reasonable people who oppose actual government and corporate evil and wrongdoing reject the Targeted Individual narrative; it is literally incredible. You’ve been banned here by by multiple writers — that should suggest the extremely low likelihood that anyone on staff here is going to write about these shared delusions as if they are real.
Please, Stan, get help.
I have no interest in stepping into this argument at all but I did want to mention that I do believe sites, especially like this site, do also have sockpuppets and other people who come on pretending to be (at times) the most egregious sorts of ‘TIs’ in order to make it easier to discredit potential activists, etc, if they should prove to need to be ‘handled’ in the future. I guess I’d call it proactive damage control. But that’s just a theory. I have no idea if it’s true nor would I speculate which might be or might not be ‘legitimate’ vs ‘plants’ vs ‘troubled’. I would like to mention though that I suspect if one were being ‘targeted’ (not in a “TI” sense, but definitely in COINTELPRO sense) one would probably have their ability to do reality testing screwed with first (or at least attempted to); from there they’d probably move to suggestions and coincidences and try to make things look worse and worse. People seem to be pretty good at filling in the blanks, and COINTELPRO would seem, if history is any indication, to be pretty good as a method of scaring the hell out of people, since it tends to seize upon peoples preexisting fears and them amplify them — which would then lead to said person having a harder and harder time distinguishing between legitimate patterns and creating patterns. I suspect COINTELPRO could *turn* a person insane, like a runaway train. But I also don’t tend to think that that’d be very cost-effective on a large scale. It would however be cost-effective to throw incredible accounts onto sites like this to make anybody who DOES get scrutiny from the authorities less likely to be believed. A lot of people, for instance, thought Assange was a nutter for suggesting he was being followed and surveilled — then we saw the military documents as well as the GCHQ documents discussing how activists are targeted. I’m sure there are a lot of programs targeting activists, and that we’ve only seen the tip of the iceberg. Look at how easily these things perturb you, for instance. Have you considered that they’re done in part to perturb you specifically? Just wondering.
Why don’t you answer my questions instead of addressing the exposure of your canned lies?
Sure, most Americans are notoriously unaware of what goes on outside of their private lives, so some American readers would be inclined to lean towards your point of view — it’s easier than thinking — but I have proved you have repeatedly lied about me. Instead of admitting you were wrong you slink away.
However, rational people do exist. Concerned people who actually think for themselves are acutely aware the US launched a torture and killing spree in 2001, which continues to this day. They are aware the US has militarized its domestic police organizations, has the ability to ‘collect it all’ on anyone, anywhere, and knows the US state murders black people on a whim, in broad daylight on the streets. It is not a stretch to assume white dissidents are being covertly attacked in all sorts of ways in inside the US and in any country the US Stasi has infiltrated. Only a whack job could categorically deny attacks on dissidents are being carried out while refusing to answer the reasonable and pertinent questions I put to you.
If I were you I would step away too.
I used to know someone just like you — a person who lied out of habit, even when he did not need to. It literally became impossible to keep his stories straight, 24×7. You do not even try. Did you ever try? You’ve no shame or integrity, but these are among your most trivial character flaws.
Btw, I genuinely feel sympathy for you: As I affirmed to nuf, my brother was a paranoid schizophrenic. When his psychosis was not under control he suffered horribly, and I am pretty certain that you believe you are being tortured, stalked & etc.
Psychiatry is far more art than science, and has a spotty history — but it is nevertheless almost certainly the only help for your affliction. Please, please get help.
Torturers’ shill:
What is required is justice for myself and many others, which would be a wee bit inconvenient for you, my dear. It would entail some readjustment on your part, but thankfully, no effort to squeeze out a gram of remorse from your sociopathic personality would be necessary. America’s garbage recycling system is the world’s benchmark. You are living proof.
People like Blair, Bush and Clinton don’t care much about blowback. What they care about is oil and pipelines, which is why these wars are fought. Going back to the beginning of the rise of powerful religious fanatics in the Middle East, the U.S. cared about maintaining capitalism, so it fought communism by siding with religious fanatics. The U.S. government was warned back then that this was not a good idea (these people are total loose cannons), but maintaining capitalism was more important to them than losing people to these fanatics.
If you as an individual want to fight this kind of crap, the best thing you can do is cease participating in the system as much as possible. Get rid of your car for starters, because maintaining cheap oil for American consumers drives these decisions as much as anything. Second, buy as little as possible, because everything is transported using oil and most things have at least some plastic (more oil). If you drive and/or consume needlessly — that’s the vast majority of Americans — you are part of the problem, regardless of anything you do to the contrary.
Best article ever about what ’causes’ terrorism. It’s the drones stupid.
No Glenn. In cases where civilians are intentionally targeted, your arguments are at worst an implicit denial of agency, and at best an effort at deflection. You try to shroud this sentiment by pretending people in the West ignore such killers’ motivations. As the Orlando case has shown, people do care about what motivates such action but what they don’t do is tiptoe around the obvious illegitimacy of such action as you do. Your game plan for these articles is first and foremost to blame the West. And they do deserve their share. But you stop there, as if the proclaimed motivation is inherently true.
Here’s something to consider: I don’t like how the Islamic State murders with wanton disregard he “heretics” and .nonbelievers. If is intense dislike motivated me to go and kill a bunch of Turkish citizens because I perceive their government as coddling ISIL, does that mean Turkish officials need to take seriously the legitimacy of what motivated such wanton murder!? Glenn, if his were to occur, would you spill more ink reviling my action or that of Turkey. I suppose the latter, after all they are an ally of the West.
The most obvious shortcoming of your argument is it’s blatant omission of the Islamic State. I am truly curious to know why. Is it because the “causal connection” between U.S. intervention in the Middle East and the gamut of ISIL’s actions – including beheadings, rape, genocide, manipulation of Sunnis, imperialistic conquest, slavery, suicide bombings – cannot be justified, no matter what Baghdadi’s and his cohort’s motivations are?
Yes, attacking the Islamic State via perpetual airstrikes invites further attack against the U.S. because of said involvement. Is your alternative inaction, or letting them build their “caliphate” in the very area the U.S. destabilized in the first place? What if we left them alone and they still attacked us due to past transgressions? The whole argument is absurd because it treats murderers as rationale beings.
Nate is pig ignorant that invading Iraq gave rise to ISIS:
This was predicted by Iraq War opponents, such as Brent Scowcroft. They were vilified.
Poor, poor Mona. Your inability to read is going to be the end of you. I said in this very post:
Unfortunately for you, I’ve already established that the U.S enabled the rise of Al Qaida in Iraq and therefore it’s successor, the Islamic State,
https://theintercept.com/2016/03/23/islamic-state-bragged-that-its-attacks-would-help-break-up-the-european-union/?comments=1#comment-214343
As for Baghdadi and his cohorts stay in Camp Bucca, that primarily led to AQI. They damn near were fully defeated. It was actually the chaos in Syria that really turned ISIL into the force it is today.
I’m glad your just starting to learn all of this, keep up the good work!!
Not clicking some link to your March comments, Nate. You carried on above as if it were not known that the Iraq war gave rise to ISIS. For you write above:
Aside from the nonsense that Glenn is “justifying” any of these actions labeled as terrorism, it was predicted that invading Iraq would lead to what is now called ISIS, and Tony Blair recently admitted this.
And nothing you spew changes this:
I guess the British military and intelligence chiefs share with Glenn this “most obvious shortcoming .”
Probably a good thing. I wouldn’t want the cognitive dissonance to suffocate you.
Mona, your laziness is really starting to show. If you aren’t willing to read the posts you respond to, or obtain a shred of evidence to support your conclusions, perhaps you should stick to less intellectually challenging tactics, such as calling people “fuckwits.”
I don’t expect anybody (aside from Bush hardliners) to deny this dynamic of intervention & radicalization exists. But that doesn’t mean these officials even entertain for a second the legitimacy of such attacks, cower in their presence, or in the case of Glenn – sympathize with the attackers’ plight.
I’m not sure why you think that it is irrational for people whose homelands have been fractured and pulverized by the greatest powers on the planet to fight back by attacking soft targets — terrorism, if you like. They don’t have the ability to do much direct damage to the military machines we sent to destroy their world, you know.
The question of rationality barely arises, actually. Rational or not, this type of response is so normal and predictable that we should probably regard it as inevitable.
If you want to ponder rationality, consider whether obliterating the cultures, economies and stability of an entire region and launching what could well be a looong clash of civilizations was really the most rational way to secure the world’s energy supply for ourselves and our posterity. ;^(
You just described the strategy of the Islamic State. Well done!
Your response is a pretty good summary of the viewpoint that because of the combination of infractions and interventions by the West and the incapacity of the aggrieved to cause adequate damage to the Western military machine, they are left with no other viable option than settling for the murder of “soft targets” to deliver their political message.
I don’t reject that this dynamic exists. It does. But unlike many around TI, I dont even begin to entertain its legitimacy or justify it.
Like Glenn’s, your response avoids the Islamic State, despite them being the title belt holder for global jihad. I believe it is because it is hard to convince oneself that their actions are merely blowback for the U.S.’s invasion of Iraq.
I would say “clearly” blowback — and unintended but easily foreseeable consequences — of the invasion, occupation, additional misadventures in Libya, Syria, etc.
As for “avoiding the Islamic State,” I think I can safely speak for Glenn and many others here and tell you that our preferred way to avoid it would have been to avoid creating it to begin with.
There are indeed unintended consequences, though your inclusion of Syria makes me wonder what level of blame you’re assigning the U.S. considering its marginal effort there.
First, don’t pretend you speak for Glenn. Leave that delusion to Mona.
Second, I acknowledge that the U.S. invasion created the environment that enabled the Islamic State to exist today. But having accepting this condition, I see no benefit in continuing to fixate on it, nor do I use it to blame the U.S. in perpetuity for the despicable actions of the Islamic State. Doing so would suggest they have limited or no agency. And now we’ve gone full circle on this discussion.
1. Doug is on entirely safe ground in speaking for Glenn and others of us in that claim; and
2. You cannot cite me ever speaking for Glenn because I never do it.
You’ve been a contrarian gadfly here since the site opened, and usually I ignore you, as do most other reasonable people. Debating you is generally useless because you cannot follow reasoning well enough to understand when you’ve been effectively rebutted. That’s a more polite way of saying: you are stupid.
Arguing with stupid people is vexing, so I quit engaging you now for this thread.
No, he isn’t. Unless he endorses a comment, I’ll err on the side of taking Glenn on his own words.
It was actually a joke. To use your parlance (and recently James Comey’s), a “reasonable person” would know you don’t speak for Glenn.
It’s ironic that you call me a contrarian gadfly, meant as an insult (it isn’t) when your hero – Glenn Greenwald – is himself characterized as such. He is a huge contrarian/gadfly of Western foreign policy and the U.S. press? So what. I bet he’d champion such a distinction.
Mona, you don’t debate, you insult. You call people “fuckwits,” provide uniformed responses without reading the contents of posts (as demonstrated earlier), you avoid evidence that casts doubt upon your claims (also demonstrated earlier), you stalk opposing viewpoints and discourage debate, and you hold yourself out to be an arbiter of whose comments are legitimate.
To reiterate my past conclusion: you argue in bad faith.
Way to bolster my point!
LOL, you say this every time – that you’ll ignore the dissenting voices – but I know you’ll be back. For you to stop engaging detractors would require self-control. Also, it would be antithetical to your purpose for living on this website: to defend Glenn’s honor by arguing with and attacking anyone who dares disagree with his rants. Maybe it would just be easier for you to lobby for the removal of comments?
You’re a lapdog, Mona! I remember one instance years back reading an article by George Packer on a somewhat obscure site that contained a piece critical of Greenwald and Snowden. I scanned the article and saw there was 1 comment at the bottom of the page. It was from good ol’ Mona, who apparently felt it was necessary to traverse the interwebs to protect Glenn, while self-importantly “disclosing” that you were a former friend and law partner. You cannot make this shit up!!
I certainly do! You and several others here, because you are…fuckwits. (And I love that word.)
True, I don’t debate… if by debate one means copiously documenting fact claims both to support my own arguments, as well as to debunk the erroneous one of others. Cuz I do that a lot. To the great annoyance of many, including you — on the relatively rare occasions I bother substantively with your spewings. (It’s true that in your case I’m as likely to simply insult you, cuz yours is just that compelling of a mind and on occasion I like smacking idjits around.)
Oh yes, that was grand — I just googled it and it doesn’t wear well or reflect well on Packer who made an arse of hisself. Among the nonsense he spewed, he claimed Glenn was wrong not to admit he had been a: “pro-war columnist.” As I made clear Glenn never has been a “pro-war columnist.” Packer was so unfamiliar with the facts of the man whose career he was writing about that he didn’t check to ascertain that Glenn Greenwald has never written a pro-war column in his life.
In fact, Nate, Packer and you have a great deal in common.
” You cannot cite me ever speaking for Glenn because I never do it. ”
As Glenn’s former law partner, you never speak for Glenn but Doug is on “safe ground” in speaking for Glenn …
Now that I can agree with.
Then why respond to my posts as you did earlier?
Ans I don’t recall “debating” you.
Yup. Because Doug “put” in Glenn’s mouth the equivalent of “don’t abuse dogs.” On such matters I have no quarrel with anyone “speaking for” Glenn, and I’d be surprised if Glenn did either.
“Doug “put” in Glenn’s mouth the equivalent of “don’t abuse dogs.” ”
That I can agree with.
The unintentional and unknowing use of a straw man argument: the key to a long life free from mental stress.
Methinks you don’t know what a strawman argument is.
Mr. Greenwald
Here we go once again. Never let an opportunity pass which you can use for propaganda. The Chilcott report reaffirms that “terrorism” is our fault.
“……..as a 2004 Pentagon-commissioned report specified in listing the causes of terrorism: “American direct intervention in the Muslim world”; our “one-sided support in favor of Israel”; support for Islamic tyrannies in places like Egypt and Saudi Arabia; and, most of all, “the American occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan.” The report concluded: “Muslims do not ‘hate our freedom,’ but rather, they hate our policies.” Countless individuals who carried out or plotted attacks on the West have said the same…….”
If, in fact, it is western foreign policy that is responsible for “terrorism”, then how do you explain the murderous Boko Haram, Al-Shabaab and Abu Sayyaf (and countless others)? These brutal Islamic terrorist organizations target and kill primarily Muslims for power – and what about the killings in Bangladesh of Hindus, secularist and liberals by Islamic terrorists? The murderers in Muslim majority Bangladesh certainly could care less about our “special relationship” with Israel. ISIS is certainly retaliating against the west, but not because of our invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan – or our support for Israel. It’s because we are trying to wipe them out by bombing them in Iraq and Syria. The bombing and murder of nearly 300 people in Baghdad this past week reflects the Sunni terrorist organization’s true “concern” for killing Muslims. They could care less that the Obama administration has bombed seven predominantly Muslim nations. All over the world, Islamic terrorists are targeting and murdering innocent people for power which has nothing to do with our foreign policy or our special little friend, Israel.
Al-Qaeda is certainly no different. You have stated almost verbatim the propaganda of Bin Laden with full knowledge of al-Qaeda’s support for reinstating the caliphate to rule over the former Islamic empire. Al-Qaeda and their franchises have a quest for power. Over and over you have repeated the “it’s our foreign policy” lies of Bin Laden and al-Qaeda even as al-Qaeda aligned with the TTP in Pakistan – and murderous civilian-killing franchises in North Africa and the Middle East. The al-Qaeda-supported Pakistan Taliban (TTP) has attacked little girls going to school with acid while shutting down hundreds of schools; targeted and murdered countless Hazera Shia Muslims many times while they were praying in their mosques; and even attacked a (Muslim) children’s school in Pakistan murdering over 100 children. And you believe they care about US droning Muslims? This is the same Bin Laden who said,
“…….Allah, the Almighty, legislated the permission and the option to take revenge. Thus, if we are attacked, then we have the right to attack back. Whoever has destroyed our villages and towns, then we have the right to destroy their villages and towns. Whoever has stolen our wealth, then we have the right to destroy their economy. And whoever has killed our civilians, then we have the right to kill theirs……..”
You have repeated this same propaganda time and time again. Radical leftists view Bin Laden as a kind of cult hero. Bin Laden’s cause was justified – even the murder of 3000 people on 911 (“Whoever has killed our civilians, then we have the right to kill theirs”). Bin Laden symbolized the consequences from hundreds of years of colonialism, western imperialism, and theft of natural resources. He fought and died for Muslims to free the Islamic world from western oppression. Bin Laden was the extreme left’s “freedom fighter”. To view Bin Laden in this manner, you have to ignore the murderous rampages of al-Qaeda affiliated franchises in the Middle East and North Africa. It was all just a fucking lie passed along by extreme leftists like you Mr. Greenwald. Al-Qaeda sought to subjugate Muslims under sharia Law. The Islamic society envisioned by Bin Laden was no different (and probably far worse) than the authoritarians he ultimately wanted to overthrow. But that didn’t keep you from repeating Bin Laden’s propaganda for the past decade with no end in sight.
(calling DocHollywood)
Readers: cragisummers is a Zionist authoritarian, and announced Trump voter, who’s been foir years been commenting in Glenn Greenwald’s space. This latest it typical, tl;dr and you shouldn’t bother. He completely ignores this:
I shall recommence my usual ignoring him, and suggest you follow suit.
Mona (she completely ignores this)
A poll conducted by the 8TH ANNUAL ASDA’A BURSON-MARSTELLER ARAB YOUTH SURVEY (Institute for Social Policy and Understanding of young Arabs) in 2014 rejected the number one reason given by Greenwald that young Arabs join terrorist organizations: our support for Israel and the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan i.e., attacks against the west are simply blowback from western policies.
The number one reason given for joining ISIS was the unemployment picture followed by superiority of religious views (Sunnis) and third by sectarian tensions throughout the region. The imposition of western values on the Arab world came in number four which likely indicates opposition to globalization by fundamentalists Muslims.
The idea of US foreign policy i.e., killing Muslims and supporting Israel, as the cause of terrorism was originally promoted by Bin Laden and al-Qaeda. Of course, it was nothing more than propaganda since the terrorist organization supported the murderous Zarqawi in Iraq; the brutal TTP in Pakistan; the anti-democratic Taliban in Afghanistan and numerous other al-Qaeda affiliates in North Africa who all murder civilians (mostly Muslims) to gain power.
As noted by the survey authors:
“……What drives young people to join a brutal, ultra-radical group like Daesh? Since its recent rise in Syria, and Iraqin 2013, the group declared war primarily on fellow Muslims.…..”
Readers alert:
Mona is an extreme anti-Zionist and anti-Jewish bigot. She is the former law partner of Greenwald. She is in lock-step with Greenwald on almost every issue and “alerts” readers about any poster she disagrees with (like you are a total idiot and need her help to figure out who to agree or disagree with below the line).
“……I shall recommence my usual ignoring him, and suggest you follow suit……”
HaHaHaHa. You keep stalking me Mona. You can repeat and promote the same lies all you want. It doesn’t address the real causes of terrorism. You just keep promoting the same old lies.
And
<
I don’t know what’s funnier: (1) that Mona acts like she is a spokesperson for the “readers,” (2) that part of Mona’s ad-hominem fueled attack relied on pointing out craig’s years of criticism, or (3) Mona’s insistence that she and others ignore craig despite her never actually doing so!
On the second point, hasn’t your fealty to Glenn extended many, many years!? I’d imagine that the comforter you sleep on at the foot of Glenn’s bed is worn beyond repair.
“…….Mona’s insistence that she and others ignore craig despite her never actually doing so!…….”
Hilarious. But she does try very hard to ignore me – until I post something! By the way, good to see an alternate opinion below the line, Nate.
Oh, this is very rare. For some six months now I have ignored Craig 95% of the time, even when he begs me to reply to him.
But I’m so happy with the Chilcot report being added to the Defense Science Board report on a point that craig hates with the heat of a thousand suns, that I’m toying with him about that and having a grand time doing so.
It will end when this thread does. Similar with you, Nate. I’m just in the mood to smack the resident fuckwits around for a bit. It’ll pass, as it always does — before the other readers get pissed and whine that I need to stop encouraging both of you to spew more drivel on the board. (They have to let a grrl have her fun every now and then.)
Craig,
We live in the realm of cause and effect. There are many, many causes that have led to where we are today. It is impossible for a commenter or an analyst to discuss all the causes in short comments and articles.
What you and others point out, and what the writers here at TI highlight, are merely parts of the totality; the reality is much more complex and nuanced.
The violence carried out by some Muslims these days seem to have many motives and objectives, some of them evolved over time.
Muslims are not where they are today because of one or a few reasons. Nor are they where they are today due to recent events only.
The situation has been in the making for hundreds of years.
The ideology of carrying out violence, outside the framework of a state, that is, by the non-state characters, has existed within the world of Islam for about 1400 years.
There are Prophetic traditions that warn the Muslims about these non-state violent characters and give their distinguishing characteristics, many of which fit today’s violent currents. For example, beards, claims of establishing Islam, violence against the state and the innocent, and many others.
These non-state characters have used different excuses and taken advantage of different situations at different times, and have functioned in different spaces.
So, for example, the Palestinian issue was a primary cause once, but then it changed to the Soviet Union’s occupation of Afghanistan, then the presence of Western troops in Saudi Arabia, to the Western occupations of Afghanistan and Iraq, to the Muslim governments’ support of the West and their actions against these non-state characters, to weakening certain Muslim governments because they are perceived to be pro-West or are fighting against these non-state characters, to causing economic chaos, to religious bigotry, revenge and hatred, to, …., so on and so forth, … the list goes on and on and on.
To me, these are merely diverse outer manifestations of the same ideology of puritanical tyranny, ignorance, desire for power, control and revenge, nihilism, desire for eternal bliss, anger, revenge, etc., etc., etc.
Go to this website: http://www.aliallawi.com
There are three books listed there. “The Occupation of Iraq” is huge, and the other two are not. Your head will spin if you read “The Occupation of Iraq”, for it presents a picture of Iraq that is extremely complex. And that’s just Iraq. Imagine writing a book on all Muslim countries!
Great comment Sufi.
Sufi
“…….To me, these are merely diverse outer manifestations of the same ideology of puritanical tyranny, ignorance, desire for power, control and revenge, nihilism, desire for eternal bliss, anger, revenge, etc., etc., etc……”
I agree. The reasons for the rise of Islamic terrorism (or Muslim terrorism as you prefer) is very complex which is why I rail against Greenwald continually arguing that it is all the fault of the west. His arguments are self serving, politically motivated and simplistic.
The Middle East is an extremely complex geopolitical “arena” with complex underlying problems which is why II strongly disagree with Greenwald’s simple explanation for the cause of terrorism today. I view the rise of extremism (terrorism) and the Arab Spring as one in the same overall revolution with many of the reasons you stated contributing to the rebellion we see today. This has been in progress for decades.
Islamists are a part of the oppressed class in the Middle East albeit a very well motivated and militant section of Arab society. They have stolen – for the moment – the democratic movement within the Arab Middle East, yet they are a very important part of the revolt against Arab authoritarian rule. You cannot, however, mistake their intentions which is to create conditions for the people probably far worse than the current ruling class. Regardless, there has been an undercurrent of opposition to the current order for a long time.
Thanks.
(calling DocHollywood)
Well done, craigsummers: you wrote your own parody.
Some parents allow their children to do things with predictable consequences in the belief they will learn their lesson and never do it again.
We can’t afford to operate under this mentality with our “leaders”.
They aren’t the ones who have to live with the consequences, and they know it… despite their repeated denials.
Kiss, 3-word easy descriptive: GreedyWhiteAssholes, ogr GSA?
RCL
Not only is the alternative a different sort of suicide, but understanding them is not that hard. Theworldsgreatestsuperpower does not engage lesser powers when they know they could be fought back. As of late they could have easily started some WMD b#llsh!t with China over the South China Sea, but the language and tone is totally different as when the problems are with people who can’t defend themselves on an equal basis.
Of course, freedom-lover can have military basis all over the world and freedom-lovingly mess with the world at large. Freedom-hating Chinese lowlifes can’t!
The Chinese seem to be enjoying it so far! Send it on!
A fundamental tenets of the social contract of all kinds of ideologies is the Golden Rule (as rendered by Confucius): “Don’t do unto others what you don’t want others to do unto you.”
One of the thing with us (Westerners) is that we think of everything through monies and technosh!t and we have lost touch with reality to the point of thinking that killing and messing with people is part of being a “good Christian”. What they do to people is not even bad, it just isn’t. They aren’t even, so the golden rule doesn’t apply
That would be the end of USG as we know it. They existentially must mess with people to the point of genocidal exterminations not only because they need their resources cheap and fast, but they find ideological satisfaction in doing what “(their star-trek) ‘God’ tells them to”, to the point of making up all kinds of self-serving philosophies (which are all narratives of abuse) …
RCL
That may be the prime reason I cannot vote for Hillary Clinton and will oppose her with all my might. She is too ready for regime change, too much of a neocon aggression driven war monger. A person who doesn’t are what she does to civilizations that have been built up over centuries. And her supporters are focused on their own wants, without concern for the rest of the world. Bit at base I think she is a sociopath, and believes her own myth.
I think I get your point. Neither USG, nor their “al-lies” would have invaded Iraq. This is not a rethorical point. Have they invaded North Korea? and NK has been even selling missils to Palestinian “terrorists”
RCL
North Korea has no natural resources (i.e. oil & gas) that Wall Street can profit off of, just lots of hungry people – and since the global slave trade is now illegal, there’s no money to be made there. So NK can cook up all the WMDs they want with no military response from the US-UK alliance.
Iraq DID have weapons of mass destruction
when the faking U$A provided them back in the 1980s
as a way of trying to destroy Iran for the corporate profiteers
when Saddam was foolish enough to make deals with the
corporate imperialists.
I have enjoyed Greenwald’s work and the world needs people like him to expose the misdeeds of our masters. However, he has a blind spot when it comes to defending the liberal values I too cherish.
I was against the war at the time and it would be daft to think differently now. It’s also reasonable to surmise that the 7/7 bombings would not have happened were it not for Iraq.
However, there are countless terrorist attacks happening around the globe against groups (including other Muslims, gay people etc) and countries with no connection to Western militarism whatsoever. While Greenwald makes some good points, his interpretation is one-sided (everything is the West’s fault).
Blaming 7/7 exclusively on Western aggression is not that different to saying “if only we hadn’t declared war on Germany in 1939 they would never have sent their fleet of bombers to attack Britain a year later.” OK, so the Iraq war was waged on dubious grounds, but Greenwald would be more balanced to acknowledge to acknowledge that the 7/7 bombers were British, not Iraqi, and condemn them for responding to the accidental (though of course entirely predictable and therefore something to weigh on Blair’s conscience) civilian deaths in Iraq, by deliberately slaying UK citizens.
Especially given they were at least educated enough to realise that at the time, those civilians did not vote FOR the war and in all likelihood probably didn’t support it.
Anyone else getting the uncomforting feeling that there’s a bipartisan push for civil unrest n riots afoot?
For those of you interested, a Frontline documentary dovetails nicely with the Chilcot report. It’s entitled, “The Secret History of ISIS.” Note the response of Emma Sky, a British expert on the Middle East, regarding Donald Rumsfeld’s cheerleading for the aftereffects of the invasion:
“Willful denial is one way of putting it. I mean, I remember, you know, thinking at the beginning, this is really, really strange. It’s one thing to analyze the situation and then spin it. It’s another thing then to start to believe your spin.”
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/the-secret-history-of-isis/
Willful ignorance all around.
“What we have here is an indisputable truth that has been turned into a harshly enforced taboo. No matter how much evidence mounts proving that western aggression, violence and domination fuels and provokes terror attacks, many influential factions still try to suppress this fact by decreeing it unspeakable”
Glenn’s concern reminds me of the very same concern Dr. Linda Riebel had in 1996. Says she,
“When theory becomes ideology, it is no longer safe to question or express doubts about its tenets (Hoffer, l95l). One powerful defensive strategy that is often applied to protect a theory against disconfirmation is the self-sealing doctrine. The self-sealing doctrine has been employed by cranks, frauds, scholars, and theoreticians. It consists of arming one’s belief system with one or more tenets that explain away inconvenient evidence”
Elsewhere she says,
“The self-sealing doctrine provides many cautionary tales about the dangers of exalting certainty. In teaching graduate-level psychology, I find myself regularly deflating my students’ grandiosity and their naive proclamations of certainty, not to reinforce hierarchy or to induce students to look up to me, but rather endeavoring to instill in them the same caution about knowledge that I have acquired, to bring them down to my level of educated humility”
Needless to say, the utter lack of humility among our leaders is a deep and pervasive problem -even a pathological one.
It’s tempting for the rich and powerful to think God has ordained their station, though they avoid saying so to the plebs. That doesn’t excuse their hubris, but it explains how they come to feel superior to everyday folk.
Tony likely would say — to borrow a phrase — it depends what “knew” means. Did he, in the midst of his messianic episode of riding the world of evil, really KNOW what he was being told?
Intervention by the West is for control over resources (and regimes), and to establish the US’ Full Spectrum Dominance. For the elite, terrorism is a small (but ultimately useful) annoyance compared to these goals, exploited cynically to increase support for more intervention.
Maisie, great point. And one we should never lose sight of. (Is that the right word? I always spell all those lose, loose, louse, words wrong). Anyway–I have this paranoid idea that for the elite, nothing matters, not terrorism, global warming, perpetual war, you name it. Because they make money on all of it (shock doctrine) and they have this yuppie idea that money means they win and winning is everything to the elite. Plus,they think they can ride out Arrmogeden (sp?) in their billion dollar bunker mansions while they wait for the colony on Mars to be built. It’s the new American Dreammare.
I think you’re right – they are on the whole skeptical that climate change will inconvenience them too much, which is ridiculously self-centered but consistent with their delusions of God-protected grandeur. Some are also convinced (like other extremists) that Armageddon is actually inevitable and desirable. The elite won’t stop destroying the environment or waging war unless they are made to do so, for to them profits and dominance far outweigh common sense caution and the needs of the general populace.
(You spelled “lose’ perfectly. Don’t worry about misspelling Armageddon; it’s not the end of the world!)
Omygod, that’s great–not the end of the world.no I know what lol means. And I needed that. And God protected grandeur– perfect. What really toasts my kumquat is according to Thomas Frank, Obama is one of them! This man that I cried for when I voted for him–I thought, we really are a decent nation. And now look at him, lying about the TPP in a speech to Boeing employees. And I cant even accuse him of seeking profits and dominance. So I just want to punch him. Prob’ly hurt my hand tho. Karma.
On the contrary, you certainly can accuse him of seeking profits and dominance. That is indeed what he is doing. Just like his former AG, Holder, he expects and will receive a nice corner office somewhere, with lots of Clinton-like speaking engagements to corporate and military “leaders”, bringing in beaucoup bux to him, and his inevitable “foundation”.He’ll become an elder statesman, like his buddying crimes against humanity, Henry Kissinger, extolling the virtues of presidential murder by decree and drone, and the inevitable need for constant US “Liberal” intervention and mass murder to protect someone or something, like his semi-autonomous puppet Samantha Power, forever invoking the need to destroy this or that people/village/city in order to save it, while promoting the national security/repression state at home, ad infinitum.
We are never so short-sighted as when we believe ourselves immune to the misfortunes of others.
p.s. Jessejean, my own buggaboos are there/their/they’re. Constant vigilance is the only thing between me and that particular pitfall. ;-}
Mine are loath/loathe and breath/breathe.
I’m stuck on humor/humour.
*which reminds me, in answer to your query Mona, I believe benitoe is a true and genuine nit wit.
Thanks to both you and Maisie. I love words and language in general, but I can’t spell for shite. My fourth grade teach told my mom at conferences that I was a ” phonetic” speller. It never got any better. I daily praise spell check (which seemed to fail me on Armageddon. But then I never would have gotten the end of the world response. ) but your confessions of spelling sins makes me feel welcome here. Thanks again.
Longtime commenters under Greenwald’s posts remember fondly the spelling-challenged Minkoff sisters (and their cousin) who often had interesting things to say though it could be a challenge deciphering it. I think they’re still around from time to time but not as often as many of us might wish.
We also used to issue the occasional award for Inspired Typo of the Day/Week/Month. Those really cracked me up. Love them. Wish we saw more of those too.
At any rate, if you’re trying to make an honest point or express deeply held feelings, then a little spelling thang shouldn’t get in the way. :-)
Don’t fret too much Jessejean. All you got to do here is get the first litters write and some of these folks will sound it out … fondically.
bah.
OMG, Obama is deeply disturbed!, well that is a lot of help. Just after watching a video of police officers (plural) shoot a guy laying on the ground, that they were sitting on…I watch a video of police shooting someone with a broken tail light.
You know what that means!, it’s time to perform another half-hearted prosecution in front of a disinterested judge.
Maybe Comey can help….”the officer didn’t INTEND to shoot him!!!”
I’ve been trying to follow the email hearing, it’s hilarious.
Did Clinton send and receive classified emails every day? Comey – Yes
Did she give those emails to technicians and lawyers who didn’t have clearance? Comey – Yes
Did she know they didn’t have clearance? Comey – Yes
Did those unauthorized persons see the emails? Comey – Yes
Why didn’t you prosecute her for giving them to uncleared persons ? Comey – She didn’t INTEND to
It seems Comey has his own magic definition of “intent”.
Also Comey is claiming he didn’t see Clinton’s appearance before congress, and can’t comment on her lies. Again, hilarious. Can you imagine the FBI prosecuting a “normal” person, the person testifies before congress, her statements contradict the FBI’s findings, but the head of the FBI doesn’t bother to look at it?
It’s too bad the journalists and leakers that Obama goes after don’t get that kind of courtesy.
Intent is not an issue until the Penalty phase. the yes answers to Facts, possibly Crimes are the only thing that matters. Intent judged LATER as in Accidental or Premeditated!
Clinton herself went out of her way to not look at reports specifically spelling out that her pined-for war on Iraq was stunningly illegal, and gonna work out in a really really bad way…
Obama, sociopathic bully that he is, only goes after people he knows can’t afford sufficient legal support for long enough to defend themselves. He’s a bully abroad and a bully at home. And best of all, he gets to hide his bully behind a beautiful, calm, rational constitutional lawyer facade.
In the aftermath of WWII we saw a new hope for a new way for people to interact internationally. We saw the creation of the UN and then the EU, both built on the founding principles of peace.
In the Brexit debate we saw the culmination of the long effort to discredit the EU. The annoying EU with all it’s human rights laws and labour protections that the right finds so inconvenient, now looks to be losing the UK. And the Chilcot report reminds us there is also the sister effort, the effort to discredit the UN. The UN, with its annoying habit of hampering wars of aggression.
Bush said he didn’t need the UN’s permission to wage a war against Iraq. And Blair, in Britain where many still remember why the UN was created, first promised to submit to the law, but then reversed himself, and took Britain to war in contravention of the UN charter. Of course on other occasions when the UN security council does authorize war, the Americans and British are happy with the UN. But most of the time you will hear America’s politicians disparaging the UN.
As the UK spends it’s reserves to try to minimize the damage to its economy, we might also look to the role back of financial protections, such as the US “glass steagal” rules. Rules that were intended to prevent reruns of the economic disasters that the US had already seen are not there to reduce the damage from international financial speculation and fraud. As with the effort to “deregulate” war. So the elites in the UK and America have deregulated capitalism. And the disaster of 2008 which harmed millions of people around the world, was one of the notable results.
It seems that even the most disastrous world events, are forgotten, their remedies, cast aside.
Err… I agree with much of what you say, but let’s not forget that EU member states were advocates of the debacles in Libya and Syria, and that French and British and Italian leaders rushed to gain access to Libyan oilfields in the wake of Gaddafi’s downfall, as did US corporations. And the EU ‘labor and human rights protections’ are a myth; that’s what France’s labor strikes are all about, that’s why Greek workers were shafted with austerity; the EU organization was formed to serve the interests of concentrated capital, not human beings, except as an afterthought.
I think it’s better to point out that after Europe destroyed itself in two internal wars, their evil colonial program gradually collapsed into pieces and the United States and Soviet Union took up where the European imperialists left off; now that the Soviet Union has collapsed, the only real neocolonial superpower left is the United States, and its empire is also currently crumbling into bits; hopefully this points to a world finally free of empires and superpowers.
I believe you pretty much summed it up. I like your (hopeful) conclusion:
“hopefully this points to a world finally free of empires and superpowers”.
No big fan of the imbalance of power on the Security Council, they’ve yet managed to undermine the fundamental principles of collective security the UN, rising out of the ashes of WWII, was founded upon. Not to mention the process of consultation, deliberation and the various avenues of UN remedial efforts to stop conflicts short of WAR. .. If that matters to anyone anymore.
Indeed. Here they are again, JLocke:
Preamble, Purposes and Principles of the Charter of the United Nations
Signed in San Francisco, California on June 26, 1945
We The Peoples of the United Nations Determined
to save succeeding generations from the scourge of war, which twice in our lifetime has brought untold sorrow to mankind, and
to reaffirm faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person, in the equal rights of men and women and of nations large and small, and
to establish conditions under which justice and respect for the obligations arising from treaties and other sources of international law can be maintained, and
to promote social progress and better standards of life in larger freedom,
And for these ends
to practice tolerance and live together in peace with one another as good neighbours, and
to unite our strength to maintain international peace and security, and
to ensure, by the acceptance of principles and the institution of methods, that armed force shall not be used, save in the common interest, and
to employ international machinery for the promotion of the economic and social advancement of all peoples
Yes, good point, Hitler and PresBush have ONE commonality: they changed the world forever.
“Not only did Tony Blair’s attack on Iraq provoke subsequent attacks on his own country, but he knew at the time he decided to attack Iraq that this would happen, because he was warned of it.”
When we declared war on Germany, we knew it would piss them off and they would subsequently try and attack us back. That did not stop us from going to war then and it won’t stop us now.
Essentially this comes down to whether we think it’s us who threw the first punch or them. Are we the main perpetrator of violence or them?
Most here claim we are the main perpetrator, that if we stopped being so aggressive, if we weren’t so close to the israelis all these islamic victims would just suddenly become happy and peaceful.
Okay, maybe that would happen. But maybe you are wrong. Maybe a certain segment of every population is violent and extreme and nothing can change that. Maybe our violent peeps are just like their violent peeps? Maybe it’s in our best interest to have the most power and wealth, not to be the nicest country? Maybe we aren’t exceptional enough to back down first because we aren’t exceptional, just human like they are?
In other words, saying stop attacking so they will stop attacking us not only justifies terrorism but it may be impossible. Even Bernie Sanders was pro drone, pro israel, anti terror…
What POTUS could reduce the military and turn us into pacifists that everybody here would cheer? Wishing that… is that realistic?
FYI to all the nutters: I am a pacifist. Asking these questions is not an attack on GG. You do not need to protect your hero.
And what do you claim,US or they as perp?
It is obvious to any deaf dumb and blind guy,or gal,that we and Zion are the main menace to world peace and stability.
And America wouldn’t vote in Jesus Christ as POTUS,so forget that angle.
The most ridiculous aspect of this election is the warmonger charge against Trump,when he keeps saying non interventionist memes,and calls out the perps for their colossal screwup? in Iraqi destruction.
Zion never sleeps as they constantly try to pull the wool over the American public’s eyes.And it seems they have many willing twerps to believe them.
“And what do you claim,US or they as perp?”
Neither. Every society has evil pricks and beautiful angels and a whole lot of ignorance in between. The evil pricks on both sides just like fighting and that is possibly impossible to stop.
I just do the best I can living a good life and trying to help others see that.
If there is an us vs them, it’s good vs bad… not Murica vs Islam or rich vs poor….
Again,who are the good and who are the bad?
Any rational intelligent non propagandist would call a nation that attacks others on BS,from 8000 miles away,in a disgusting display of martial BS,Shock and Awe,as the obvious bad guy.
To take out the guy we set up in power in the first place,once his usefulness in divide and conquer was ended.
A f*cking cesspool of shite that would take 256? roter rooter tanker trucks to haul away.
I think some is sticking to your soul.
You are assuming lots of things about me that are not true and these assumptions are preventing you from understanding the concept I’m raising.
The shock and awe is bad and terrorism is bad. There are bad people in both societies. If two people are fighting and one stops, there is no guarantee, in fact it’s not even very likely, that the other person will stop in kind.
Getting us to stop first… if that were even an option to us, how would we get that done?
So the violence is just for shits and giggles because people like to kill? Isn’t it possible that some of this is done for economic gains, power shifting, political power grabs etc?
Dacoit, your mention of Trump brings up a struggle I’m in mentally, questioning “just how bad is Trump really?” And that scares the hell out of me. But every time I hear the corporate media attack him ( after they created him) I wonder who’s zoomin’ who? Did Bill Clinton REALLY urge him to run so that we’d be forced to vote for Killary? I’m a 50 years Registered Dem but I will never vote for that beeatch. I’ll write in Bernie no matter what, as a protest vote, just so I can know I didn’t contribute to any more Hunduruses or Lybias or Ukraines. And that could possibly lead to a Trump victory at which point I’m sure the Damn Dems would start a vendetta against all progressives who stiffed Killary. But could Trump actually be an American Hitler, or would my choice be more like the Brexit vote–a loud scream against the bankers and financial overlords. So darn ya–but keep talking!
I can’t promise Trump will deliver on America First,but at this point in our history,its our only out of this nonsensical war of terror for Zion.
Look at all the shibboleths of BS Trump has demolished.From Iraq,to McCain,to the shrub.to outsourcing,to Russophobia and many many other things,a breath of fresh air unseen since FDR.
Not that he is FDR,but he is of the same patrician class(actually that class of Americans is long dead)and promises to help US peons.
And personally,I love his press meetings,where he displays common man thinking and humor,as he tweaks the MSMs foot in mouth soldiers of MSM garbage.
And know a man by his enemies, as both the lying times and Wapoo are out for his head.
That statement is both irrelevant and wrong.
Look at what the intelligence agencies said: that the Iraq invasion would induce more terrorism against the west. This independent of what came before, or who started what. Just a simple statement: invade, get more terrorism. Do not invade, get less.
Was there some really good reason to invade and accept the resulting terrorism? Of course not. The war caused harm all the way around, and anyone who looked at the available information before the invasion could be almost certain that this is what would happen.
As bad as those who ignored the evidence before may be, they shine like gold compared to those who refuse to see it now. Talk about 20/800 hindsight, legally blind on the intelligence scale.
I really can’t remember the Wests security agencies saying anything negative about invading Iraq,it was the peon on the street that saw the whole thing as idiotic,and millions expressed that but the goddamn ziomedia wouldn’t even print photos of the large crowds.
It’s possible the security agencies said something along those lines,as it is totally logical thinking,but of course our media would not put a light on it.
All this shite is also on their craven heads,as the watchdogs of democracy turned out to be wolves for zion.
And look ,every day the Israelis take more,and more and more,with no opposition but mealy mouthed its not helpful BS,and all because 9-11,and all this subsequent crap has made the Muslims the bad guys,in some massive twist of reality,as framed by the MSM.
As in The outer limits,they control the narrative.
You’ve got the wrong historical analogy, charliethreeee; you want to look at Germany invading and occupying Poland in 1939 as the comparison for Bush invading Iraq in 2003, not the U.S. declaring war on Japan and Germany in the wake of Pearl Harbor – and come to think of it, didn’t Germany declare war on the U.S. first? Yes, they did, Dec 11, 1941 (the US declared war back later that day). Come on, at least get your history right.
It’s not about being pacifists, it’s about relinquishing ‘superpower’ status in the post-Cold War era. For example, that means closing foreign military bases all over the world; bring them back to the United States where at least they help out local economies. It means shutting down NATO, a gross expenditure that the U.S. taxpayer can no longer afford, just as the USSR’s Warsaw Pact, NATO’s sibling, was dissolved as the Cold War ended.
This is not unrealistic; this is sanity. Without drastic reductions in the foreign military budget, the U.S. will go the same way as the Soviet Union – crumbing under the weight of aging infrastructure, gross government corruption, bloated military budgets and idiotic foreign policy strategies – and notice how we’ve taken over from the Soviets in Afghanistan? Some telling similarities there, I think; welcome to the Graveyard.
This doesn’t mean being any more ‘pacifist’ than Russia or China or India are – but notice how those countries don’t have global networks of highly expensive military bases? Notice how we don’t have Russian or Chinese or Indian warships patrolling within 50 miles of U.S. borders, while that’s what US Naval vessels are doing?
The Global Empire is dead, and trying to hang on to it is a recipe for economic disaster; ask the Brits, ask the French, ask the Soviets. So say goodbye to the age of empires, say goodbye to the age of superpowers – from here on out, the United States is going to be just another country, like it or not.
“You’ve got the wrong historical analogy”
This is evidence that you too are missing my point:
We do not decide whether to go to war or not based on how angry it will make our enemy.
No, “we” decide to go to war based on how much money it will make for fossil fuel corporations, arms dealers and their Wall Street shareholders.
That’s why the Cheney Energy Task Force was fixated on Iraqi oilfields, right? A far more lucrative prize than anything Afghanistan could provide (i.e. a trans-Afghan pipeline); so Afghanistan was left to the Taliban from 2002 onwards as the war machine geared up to seize Iraqi oilfields.
Who is “we”, though? A handful of greedy neoconservative and neoliberal elites? Is that democracy?
What the war profiteers and their paid-for politicians worry about is public opposition, which comes about due to soldiers coming home in body bags, steep increases in fuel prices, and other forms of blowback, including retaliatory terrorist attacks. This may cause the public to refuse to go along with, say, a war on Iran, or continuation of the war in Syria. End of empire, right?
This is not the same as the U.S. entering World War II to halt the aggressive actions of Japan, Germany and Italy, is it? The Japanese stock market boomed in the immediate wake of Japanese militarism; Wall Street back then hated FDR and had invested heavily in Hitler. No, “we” are on the wrong side this time; in Iraq, “we” were the aggressor conducting the criminal war.
Yes, it is an unpleasant picture, but those are the facts in this case.
“We”
Photosymbiosis is right. The collective “We” you refer to is not the American People. It’s the Elites.
Did you vote to go to war with Iraq?
Bullshit. But whatever, you are a moronic gadfly and contrarian who’s almost always wrong in his fact claims and reasoning.
More bullshit. When you depose the democratically elected president of a Muslim country (the U.S. and UK in Iran, 1953), support their tyrants, invade their countries, drone-bomb their wedding parties and villages, and otherwise meddle in their affairs, it isn’t rocket science to figure that out of 1.6 billion Muslims a handful are going to react violently against us. And the overwhelming rest are going to resent and/or hate us.
For many months you’ve been infesting these comments posting drivel. It does not improve with age.
Mona, it’s too bad that your prejudice about me clouds your ability to understand what I’m saying.
US foreign policy is awful. I hate it just as much as you do. Yes, there is blowback from this behavior. That said, if we stop being dicks, there is no guarantee that terrorists will stop being dicks. Also, even if changing our aggressive behavior did stop terrorism, how would voters make that happen when only 30% of us vote and of that 30% only 2% think like us?
I am on your team whether you believe that or not. Just because I question everything does not mean I am the enemy. Perhaps you should burn a blunt or relax in some other way.
> Just because I question everything does not mean I am the enemy.
That’s incorrect.
Charlie;The terrorists are the result of US being dicks for 70 years.
And the real terrorists have always been supported by US,or our allies in the region.
AlCIAda,AlnUSrA and IsUS are not figments of anyone’s imagination but actual reality,from the 80s to the present in one guise or another.The wounded terrorists in Syria get treated at Israeli hospitals.(or medical facilities)We established and supported Saddam Hussein.
Of course people will stop attacking US when we stop attacking them,its human nature.We nuked Japan,and laid waste to Germany.Did they continue to attack US once war ended?The Vietnamese;Name an event of Vietnamese revenge on America?
Mona is right about you. You aint on Mona’s “team,” though your use of that term is wonderfully ironic. “Think like us?” You don’t understand, on a basic level, the straightforward thing Mona is talking about, so it’s no surprise really that you think somehow you’re actually on the same “team.”
I understand what Mona is saying about blowback causing terrorism just fine. I am not even disagreeing with it lol.
All I am saying is that if we stop being dicks there is no guarantee that they (meaning the terrorists) will suddenly reply in kind. Furthermore, HOW will we stop being dicks? There are not enough people who think like us to make that happen.
All of you beating me up: your anger is misdirected and you are uber prejudice. I am one of you. I am just saying your solution to terrorism (you think if we stop being dicks that solves the problem) is too simplistic and not realistic.
But I guess saying that makes me Dick Cheney!
Mona–kick ass, girl. Very articulate!
Wars are good distractions. Technocracy has been implemented in our sleep.
Sorry Glen,
But there is more than enough information to suggest that conviction by media was a crock.
http://www.julyseventh.co.uk
One particular event is the training event that took place at the time, replicating in detail what actually happened…..yeah right.
Sure, all terrorist bombings are organized by a secret cabal of CIA/MI6 actors who use them to manipulate public opinion and justify foreign militarism, that’s the line, right? But it just doesn’t hold water, not for 9/11, not for 7/7, not for the recent bombing in Iraq that killed over 250 people.
The best analysis of such nonsense – and the real agendas of its promoters – can be found here:
https://arthurmag.com/2007/09/20/rushkoff-on-911-conspiracy-theorists/
After all, if these ‘secret government conspiracies’ were so all-powerful, why didn’t they just plant WMDs all over Iraq, where Donald Rumsfeld said he knew they were? Problem solved, mission justified, so why not? The answer is simple: they’d have been caught out, by someone leaking to the press, or by forensic analysis of the planted materials.
Forensic analysis, for example, also conclusively demonstrated that the 9/18 and 10/9 anthrax letters came from inside the U.S. biological weapons defense program – almost immediately shutting down Bush Administration efforts to tie them to Saddam – now there, in contrast, was an actual ‘false flag’ attack, in which the attackers claimed to be Islamic terrorists, but such claims were debunked within weeks by genetic and physical forensics (to the chagrin of the Bush Administration).
Again, if the ‘secret government cabal’ was so powerful, they would have directed the Army scientists who did the analysis to conclude that the material in the letters was identical to the anthrax Saddam produced in the late 1980s (*with US and UK assistance) back when he was our ally against Iran. Seems pretty simple to pull off, compared to 9/11 or 7/7 – so why not? Well, dozens if not hundreds of people knew about the analysis, the whole Fort Detrick bureaucracy and several other labs were involved, and someone would have talked.
To say that all events of terror are staged is as ridiculous as saying that none are staged.
9-11 fit the needs of Zion to a T.Dancing Israelis are the smoking gun,as was Urban moving Systems abrupt departure back to Israel,and on TV one said they were there to document the event.
3 towers fell on their footprints better than admitted televised controlled demolitions.
Methinks you have an agenda.
Oh, it’s my considered opinion that the anthrax letters of 9/18 and 10/9 were a Cheney operation aimed at creating a causus belli for invading and occupying Iraq, but look how it blew up in their face and was almost immediately linked to the U.S. bioweapons program, rather than what Bush and Cheney and Rumsfeld and James Woolsey wanted, i.e. to link it to Saddam’s 1980s-era bioweapons program. Ooops!
Think about it, don’t just regurgitate the International Zionist Conspiracy line you picked up from that 1930s-era Henry Ford pamphlet, okay?
‘Sure, all terrorist bombings are organized by a secret cabal of CIA/MI6 actors who use them to manipulate public opinion and justify foreign militarism, that’s the line, right?’
I never suggested an alternative. I merely suggested that the narrative by the media is a crock. You obviously didn’t go to the website site and imbue your small mind with the issues raised.
It would seem you have the leap of faith to jump from critising the alledged truth with facts to somehow comming up with MI6 involvement.
Do you generally whine this much, with faulty childish logic?
Sure – so could you explain why no WMDs were planted in Iraq by the big bad all-powerful government, again?
7/7 Ten Years On – An indictment of the State and the state of investigative journalism
As the tenth anniversary of 7th July 2005 materialises much will be written and broadcast around the official ‘narrative’ of what happened that fateful day. Ten years on and you might think that there would not be much more that could be learned about what happened. Yet, on 6th July 2015, we learn from the former head of the Counter Terrorism Command at Scotland Yard between 2002 and 2008, Peter Clarke, that:
I spent the weekend before the London bombings of July 7 2005 with my colleagues in the anti-terorism branch, working through our response to the most difficult scenario we could think of. The one we came up with was multiple simultaneous attacks on the Tube. Four days later, our musings became a dreadful reality.
How prescient a scenario this was, mirroring as it did a Panaroma ‘documentary’ from 2004, as well as crisis management exercises that were running on the day of 7th July 2005 that were also operating around a similar scenario. The idea of a series of explosions across the underground network seems to have been very common currency for quite some time among the anti-terror brigades.
J7 have received the usual barrage of requests for comment in recent weeks from various media organisations who are forced to care, for a brief time at least, about the events of 7/7 by dint of the fact that an anniversary is on the cards. Some requests have provided questions to which they would like responses from the J7 team of researchers. One such journalist is Jack Sommers of the Huffington Post. In response to his questions and those of other journalists asking for comment on similar issues, J7 offers the following.
Do you regard the official version of events of what happened, on the balance of probabilities, as the most plausible? If not, what version of events do you find most plausible
It’s not up to J7 to provide plausible explanations of what happened; our job is to ask the right questions and try to elicit truthful or revealing answers from the authorities. There still exists the idea that people are innocent until proven guilty and therefore the burden of proof is on the State to prove its case for the prosecution beyond reasonable doubt. Ten years on the State has provided no evidence, other than that which is purely circumstantial, speculative or presumed that would secure a successful conviction of the four accused. It took almost 4 years for the authorities to fudge a response to a Freedom of Information request submitted 13 days after 7th July 2005 requesting the basis of how the alleged bombers’ ID was apparently determined.
Has the momentum behind J7 grown or shrunk in recent years since the inquest into the 52 people killed? Why?
The same momentum will always be there in a search for the truth of what happened. 7/7 is not unique in this regard. The same momentum and movement for truth as possessed by the grand-daughter of Alice Wheeldon who is still pursuing justice after the setting-up of her grandmother in 1916 by MI5. Records and information was hidden behind official secrecy as part of a concerted State cover-up that ran for over 80 years. The same momentum as the relatives of the 21 killed during the 1974 Birmingham pub bombings, who have never even had an inquest into the deaths of their loved ones, while the state incarcerated innocent people for over 16 years, as a government 75 year ban on disclosure of relevant material to the case continues.
Truth is a powerful thing and those who seek truth and justice are persistent in their quest and, as history as shown, that quest is passed down through the generations.
“Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.”
– Martin Luther King, Jr.
What aspect of the official narrative do you find least convincing and does this make you doubt the narrative overall?
The official narrative is a deeply flawed document and has been amended as a result of information uncovered by J7. Secret and in camera hearings during the Inquest by a specially appointed privy councillor judge cast further doubt on the transparency of the process and the veracity of the story told in the ‘narrative’. It is worth remembering that the definition of a narrative is this: “a story or account of events, experiences, or the like, whether true or fictitious.” We believe that a story that might be truthful or fictitious is not sufficient explanation for an event the magnitude of 7/7, nor is it sufficient to convict the accused without trial.
Why is an inquest into the 4 men accused of carrying out 7/7 important? Why do you think they have they not happened?
It is not only important, it is a requirement of Article 2 of the European Convention of Human Rights. J7 are still waiting for investigative journalists imbued with the tenacity to uncover the facts around quite why the State has failed to conduct an inquest into the deaths of the accused, as well as all the other issues that exist around the truth of what happened on 7/7. J7 submitted a request for a resumption of the inquests into the deaths of the 4 accused to Lady Justice Hallett during the 7/7 Inquests proceedings.
The inquests into 52 of the deaths on 7th July 2005 commenced over five years after the deaths occurred and only after the government tried to implement the power to use ‘suitably trained and cleared coroners and counsel’ to undertake inquests without juries. André Rebello, Coroner for the City of Liverpool, honorary secretary of the Coroners’ Society and the executive officer of the Coroners’ Society confirmed that there had been no consultation with the coroners themselves and was asked in 2008, “What is your view of the proposal that inquests in some circumstances should be held before suitably trained and cleared coroners appointed by the Secretary of State?” His response is telling:
“I am very uncomfortable about that. I think that it drives a coach and horses through the separation of powers. If a suitably qualified or specially ticketed coroner needs to be brought in, it certainly cannot be any part of the Executive that appoints the coroner. Well, it could be, but our rule of law would be going out the window.”
The measures incorporating secret juries and specially appointed coroners passed through Parliament by a slim majority of only eight votes, on Thursday, 12 November 2009. The process was assisted no less by a procedural farce engineered by Jack Straw. The procedural farce included a reported number of Labour MPs who apparently voted the wrong way by mistake.
How do you respond to those who say the promotion of alternative theories has been upsetting for survivors of the attacks? What about those who have attacked those survivors personally? (Such as this: rachel-north-liar-and-charletane.blogspot.ie/)
J7 has always walked the fine line between the official doctrine contained in the narrative and those who ostensibly question the official story but posit their own evidence-free pet theories about what happened. J7 research and writings are based on facts that we have established through continued research, endless FOI requests, and information placed into the public domain by the authorities along the way.
Have you ever received support from either survivors of 7/7 or the relatives of those killed? If so, what was it?
Yes. Overwhelmingly the feedback we have received from those directly affected by 7/7 have been supportive of our quest to get the truth of what actually happened. Further evidence of this can be seen from the many occasions when J7’s research was cited or used during the course of the 7/7 Inquests and presented before the court by the representatives of the bereaved. Survivors and relatives also want to know the truth about what happened and their loved ones. If anything, the truth about what happened is vastly more important to them than it is to those of us who do not accept the official narrative for the reasons we have carefully and painstakingly documented in depth over the last decade.
Ten years on from the events in London on July 7th 2005, what we know about them remains exactly as it was at the conclusion of the 7/7 Inquests back in 2011, which we highlighted again on the 6th anniversary. Just some of these are mentioned below for anyone that might think an event of the significance of 7/7 should be justly and judiciously investigated to uncover the truth about what happened and how it happened.
Without a full and independent Public Inquiry, held outside of the restrictive remit of the Inquiries Act 2005, it remains the case that:
The bodies of Tanweer and Khan were not included in the ‘LifeExtinct’ body counts carried out on 7th July by Dr Morgan Costello
The police viewing of the Luton Station CCTV footage was conducted as early as 10th July, despite the official account clearly stating that the men were identified on CCTV at King’s Cross Thameslink on 11th July, and that it was this discovery that led the investigation to Luton as a possible site of interest.
There exist no recorded sightings of three of the men, Khan Tanweer and Lindsay, after the footage from King’s Cross Thameslink, some way from the Underground tube network. Apparently, a temporary CCTV system was installed at King’s Cross underground and malfunctioned for the 20 crucial minutes between 8.30am and 8.50am. Additionally, there is no CCTV footage showing the three from any other cameras. This means that there is absolutely no CCTV evidence places three of the accused anywhere on the London Underground network on the morning of 7 July 2005.
No CCTV from pre-incidence tube carriages has been released, despite this CCTV apparently existing, and despite it being crucial evidence which could confirm or deny that three of the men boarded the carriages they are alleged to have boarded. Why has it not been released? This CCTV should also have been made available to Colonel Mahoney when the expensive modelling of likely injuries sustained by the deceased was conducted to make up for the fact that no internal post mortems of the victims were conducted; the lack of post mortems itself being a jarring anomaly.
No CCTV exists from McDonald’s showing whether Hussain actually used the premises to insert a new 9v battery into his apparently malfunctioning bomb. It was revealed during the inquests that the store manager can be seen on CCTV footage actually turning off the CCTV system before Hussain entered.
No CCTV exists of Hasib Hussain on either of the two buses he is alleged to have boarded. There is no footage of Hussain aboard the number 91 bus, nor the number 30 bus he is alleged to have destroyed, nor is there any street or traffic camera footage showing him boarding either of the buses.
There is a huge discrepancy between the explosives allegedly used, as given in sworn evidence to the Jean Charles de Menezes Inquest, and the evidence that Clifford Todd gave to the 7/7 Inquests. Clearly, not everyone is singing from the same hymn sheet about a significant aspect of 7/7.
There is strong evidence in the public domain to suggest that at the heart of the story behind 7/7 lay at least three operatives for both British and American Intelligence, one of whom served an insanely short period of time in a US prison, before being quietly released, for crimes far greater than the crimes of those his testimonies put behind bars for far longer sentences.
These questions and many, many more can be found on the 7/7 Inquests blog
Without a doubt the State itself will never provide answers to these questions without the dogged persistence of independent researchers in their quests for truth, nor until investigative journalists – if such beings still exist – have the courage to honestly start examining the many unanswered questions that exist and those which are raised by the complete lack of conclusive evidence produced in the story (for that is what a ‘narrative’ is) so far. Until then we’ll all have to put up with the ‘churnalism’ of official State-dictated ‘narratives’ that we have all come to know and despise.
Meanwhile, J7’s quest for the truth about what happened on the day of 7th July 2005 continues.
There is something of a parallel way of seeing in cases like the murders of Philando Castile and Alton Sterling. Black men and women are under intense pressure in the U.S. and are extrajudicially murdered daily, and the Black Lives Matter movement is seen by segment of the population as a terrorist organization. They are killed with impunity again and again and again, yet their pain is not recognized. But when we see these videos of cops who shoot them, the cops seem to be terrified for their lives and will kill with virtually no provocation. Their disconnect from reality is profound.
The videos are devastating. The police in the US must be some of the most paranoid people in the world. They’d shoot a butterfly to avoid getting a scratch.
A central issue in the Iraq invasion and occupation that’s been glossed over by most media outlets is the real motivation: not 9/11 terrorism, not WMDs, but control of Iraqi oil. There is some coverage of this rather neglected aspect of the Chilcott inquiry:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-07-06/iraq-inquiry-shows-oil-was-a-consideration-for-u-k-before-war
There is not a single military action of the US-UK-NATO alliance in the Middle East, Central Asia, eastern Europe, or North Africa that doesn’t have a oil/gas related component, and usually as the central factor. Afghanistan and the Trans-Afghanistan pipeline (championed by Condi Rice & Hillary Clinton), Iraqi oilfields, Libyan oilfields, Syrian pipeline transit routes, etc.
This militaristic foreign policy agenda is sold to the American and British public as promoting “energy security”, but really this is about just corporate greed and neocon/neolib warmongering. (The US and UK domestic economies could get along fine without fossil fuel imports). Another aspect is that these wars facilitate arms sales by UK and US arms dealers. The ultimate beneficiaries are thus Wall Street shareholders in the fossil fuel and arms sectors, who’ve done well off these wars.
In the specific case of Iraq, it’s also well known that the Cheney Energy Task Force had drawn up maps of Iraqi oilfields and contracts in March 2001, in coordination with U.S. oil majors Exxon and Chevron and other smaller oil companys.
The bottom line is that invading and occupying a country in order to seize and control its resources, even if done under the cover of lies about WMDs and links to terrorism, is a clear example of a criminal war, as defined in the WWII Nuremberg trials. All told, the legal argument for war crimes trials for Bush and Blair is very strong.
(And yes, it’s bizarre how the very media pundits and politicians who promote these criminal wars act so astonished and morally outraged by violent terrorist assaults in their own countries, after they’ve slaughtered hundreds of thousands of people abroad, and acted for decades to prop up authoritarian dictatorships across the region and block democratic reforms.)
Whats hillaryous about that is that gas prices tripled right after the invasion,and didn’t come down until we had OPEC attack Russia by lowering oil prices.It’s still about double than when we initiated this project from Zionist hell.
So who controls Iraqi oil today, and how did it get that way? Are you saying that Tony Blair joined Bush in the war because GB had an overwhelming need for Mideast oil? At the time GB imported very little oil. Now it is about 60%, but it mostly comes from Norway, I believe.
Absolutely not!
But think of the cash flow into London banks if BP and Shell controlled the taps of Iraqi oilfields; if they could procure oil from Iraq at low rates and sell it on global markets to everyone from Europe to India to China at market rates; massive profits would result; and British shareholders in BP and Shell would see their dividends shoot up to undreamt-of-levels.
Thus, Bush & Blair’s oil agenda was NOT about supplying GB or the USA with oil, it was about controlling the flow of oil from Iraq and directing the profits from its sale into Wall Street and London banking centers. Clear enough, isn’t it?
Furthermore, GB imports lots of natural gas from Qatar, a deal overseen by Blair successor Cameron. This plays into the Cameron-Blairite support for the Syria war, because if Qatar gas could be piped across Syria via Israel to a Mediterranean port, then on to Europe and Britain. . . Britain imports something like 25% of its LNG from Qatar, too.
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-12551258
Every military imperial action in the Middle East undertaken by the US & its UK ally is directly linked to controlling oil profits, period. This has nothing at all to do with ‘domestic energy security’, it’s just greed for the cash flows.
So Iraq 2003 was Iran 1953? I do not think so. The Iraq invasion was just stupidity all the way around, driven from below by neocon ‘ideology’, driven from behind by a moron who wanted to be the ‘war president’, and driven on the surface by rampant short term profiteering in war goodies. The only reason they bothered to guard the oil fields was because someone remembered Kuwait. If the poodle wanted to run with the war horse, that was fine, but it was not important.
If you want to explain any 21st century military action as anything other than stupidity and short term profiteering, you have to make a real case. Facts? References? Logical connections between them?
Come on, that’s nonsense. Cheney Energy Task Force with maps of Iraqi oilfields and meetings with Exxon and Chevron leaders? Blair meeting with BP and Shell and writing lots of notes about it? The post-invasion effort to pass an Iraqi Oil Law that would hand control over to the oil majors (a major cause of the insurgency, that was)?
If it’s staring you right in the face, and you refuse to see it, that’s a sign you’re wearing a blindfold.
He seems to like straying from reality re 9-11.Iraq and its benefactor.
What many of you do not understand that the whole destabilization of the Middle East is so the Saudi’s can build an Oil Pipeline from Saudi Arabia through Syria and into Western Europe.
Why might you ask?
Russia has complete control over the oil in Eastern Europe, and because of this Putin has a lot of control. The West and NATO hate this. In order to get Putin out of the way, they must find a solution. This is why they want the pipeline, and this is why Russia says “f*ck no”.
The Dinar (African currency backed by gold) to trade oil in, instead of the Petrodollar. If Ghadafi was successful in this currency, it would be the end of the PetroDollar and the US Dollar (backed by nothing). The US dollar would collapse quickly if this happened, much like it is going to anyway, but more so in the long run rather than the short run.
“There are many ways to light Europe” – Syriana (movie) quote.
Of course if Europe developed large-scale renewable energy it would have no need to import fossil fuels from Russia or Saudi Arabia & Qatar or Iran; the North African Desertec project (2011) would have been a step in the right direction, but ‘regime change’ got in the way; instead of solar power from North Africa, Europe got a flood of desperate refugees. . .
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/can-north-africa-light-europe-solar-power/
I think my opinion of World Leaders just hit a new low. . .
Quoting anything from CIA movies and George Clooney gives me the willies.
Sure dahoit, because Hollywood is run by the International Zionist conspiracy described by Henry Ford in what, the early 1920s? But that’s your response to everything, isn’t it? You sure it isn’t the UFOs running everything?
Come on Syriana’s a good movie; here’s a illustrative clip:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jkqb4bUgJ9c
Explains the war in Syria for control of pipeline routes, that does.
If we’re only causing the violence, and the cause is not a justification for the violence, we’re still innocent.
The reason for the taboo against acknowledging the cause of violence directed against us is that too many people might consider the cause to be justifying. For example, many people, if allowed to think about it, might consider the invasion of another country (for reasons other than self-defense) to be not only a cause of violent retaliation but a cause that justifies retaliation – a “just cause” for the retaliation. That conclusion is what the taboo is intended to foreclose. That’s how we lose our innocence. Innocence is determined by justification, not causation.
There is absolutely no danger that people would view violence against themselves as being justified. The reason for the taboo is that if people understand that engaging in foreign wars is a contributing cause of terrorism, they may not support those wars quite as enthusiastically.
It’s an open question as to what would be more likely to undermine support for foreign wars by the American and British public; violent terrorist assaults or skyrocketing fuel prices? Bloomberg:
As far as what goes on in foreign countries, one gets the sense that many Americans view the world outside of the U.S. borders as this vaguely mythical place, hard to find on a map. I think this has something to do with U.S. television and media propaganda, it’s all about “the Homeland”, from weather reports on down to the refusal to cover candidate’s foreign policy agendas in an election year.
There are plenty of people who are willing to admit that their government is not innocent. This doesn’t mean they are willing to be sacrificed in a terrorist attack. It just provides a moral motive for removing the cause (ending the wars), which is independent of your motive. My point was that morality and innocence are based on justification, not causation.
You really need a new account for when you are not being sarcastic brother.
Your premise is false? What evidence do you have that the American people support this war enthusiastically? As I see it, most people are indifferent and just want to enjoy life. Heck, only like 30% of us even vote.
Load ’em up with opiates and Victory Gin, and the American people will be fine as long as you don’t take the TV away or stick them with high gas prices? Sheep for the fleecing.
But, if that’s true, then why did so many of the American people back Sanders (who would have defeated Clinton if the primary hadn’t been rigged by the media and the DNC and voter disenfranchisement) on one hand, and Trump (widely viewed as the least likely and most ridiculous Republican candidate before the primary) on the other?
Seems like things are falling apart back in propaganda-land – but Hillary will bring home the bacon, is that the dream? Funny how the corporate media reports on the low opinion the American public has of the leading political candidates – but I bet their own polling numbers are much lower. Quiet about that, aren’t they?
I hope you realize that the Americans who voted for Trump thought every one of the others on that platform as least likely and ridiculous.
Trump is the rejection of supplication on their knees for Zion,exemplified by the 100 puppet show for the spy Yahoo last year.
Are we all sheeple?We will see.
You really need a new account for when you are not being sarcastic brother.
Yes. It is disconcerting to witness this new Benito. All day I have been wondering who stole our Benito and who they replaced him with. Perhaps, though, it is just the weight of all these horrible things happening. Things which seem inevitable and unavoidable. If so, then I understand, because I have days when that weight seems unbearable as well. :-s
Re-education camp has been enlightening. Apparently small dissonances in my comments were transmitting a subliminal message of insincerity, causing people to mistake them for sarcasm. The only way to correct this fault is to wipe all preexisting programming from my brain. This sounds difficult but fortunately, with the aid of magnetic resonance technology, it is surprisingly simple.
I heartily recommend re-education camp to everybody. Things which once weighed on me unbearably no longer even enter my thoughts. People become irrationally attached to their own personality – discarding it is the ultimate act of freedom.
Were men, women, children of Hiroshima and Nagasaki innocent?
Iyad El-Baghdadi talks about being radicalized, and finding his way back to the light:
https://twitter.com/iyad_elbaghdadi/status/751075373836693504
That’s really powerful. I especially understand why he cannot forgive the warmongering secular intellectuals.
His blog post on his radicalization and how it made him realize that standing up to the fear mongerers was critical is good stuff too:
http://www.el-baghdadi.com/index.php/contacts/48-articles/articles/72-stand-up-to-the-fear-mongers
He’s a good follow on twitter. Lots of insights on all kinds of things. He is an honest young man struggling to do the right thing, wrestling with his own prejudices and convictions. The world would be a better place if more people did that sort of self-examination.
Yup — I’ve been following him for some time.
That is good to hear but when were you planning your self examination?
Reading things that re-enforce what you already believe is not a self examination!
This explains a lot. It’s impossible to construct a coherent argument in a Twitter bleat. Hence, you just get slogans and statements, often rather nasty ones. Trump is a master of the medium, for example.
Consider the problem:
There’s not enough space for that in a twit, is there? A “twitterized” person is thus one who is incapable of constructing a coherent argument; instead they act like this:
http://townhall.com/columnists/terrypaulson/2016/04/04/twitterized-politics-and-civility-n2141765
Makes one wonder. . . could Twitter be a plot to deliberately dumb down the global population?
<
Glenn Greenwald, Jeremy Corbyn, Max Blumenthal, Ali Abunimah, Rania Khalek, and Shaun King — to cite a very few great people — are "twitterized persons." Rather obviously I read outside of Twitter, as I've been able to effectively slap down your bullshit many times with links to and quotes from knowledgeable writers. (For instance, that's where I encountered Jeremy Corbyn in a video stating what you dismiss as "propaganda" about the racism driving Brexit.)
“dumb down the global population”
Is this even possible? ;)
Having looked at a Twitter feed, I realize once again why I dislike Twitter so much – it’s all one line sloganeering, designed for people with short attention spans. If you want in-depth commentary and history from someone who lived through the Iraq invasion and occupation, I suggest spending some time reading Riverbend blog posts, 2003-2013:
https://riverbendblog.blogspot.com
What do you think – will Bush and Blair, prime examples of our radicalized neocon & neolib imperial militants, advocates of violent attacks on innocent civilian populations, ever “find their way back to the light?”
Having looked at a Twitter feed, I realize once again why I dislike Twitter so much – it’s all one line sloganeering, designed for people with short attention spans.
Yes and no. It has it’s obvious limitations – there’s only so many ways to get around a 140-character limit – and I resisted joining for a long, long time. I think what one gets out of twitter can be cobtrolled by what/whom one chooses to follow. And, for getting the feel of what’s happening with a given on-going news situation, it’s very hard to beat it for finding links to other, more in-depth information.
I have seen lots of silliness on twitter, but silliness in and of itself is not necessarily something to be sniffed at. I have also found links to profoundly moving and educational things on twitter, things I wouldn’t have ever seen otherwise. It is what you make it be.
I have Riverbend’s books. I read the blog. And I still got something different out of reading the twitter feed of Iyad El-Baghdadi -someone whose experiences were similar and different from hers, yet still offer a valid middle-eastern perspective – and now I’m learning even more from his blog too. Twitter has broadened my exposure. I would think you would recognize and welcome the value of that. It’s certainly not everyone’s cup of tea, but I think we sometimes focus a bit too much on drawbacks/negativity and so lose sight of the fact that a tool can be used for good, bad and silly all at once. I don’t care what Justin Bieber shares with the world, but I think it pays to listen to a lot of other folks. So I treat twitter pretty much the way I treat this comment section. :-)
cobtrolled?
Paging Jessejean! Cleanup on aisle three! The kids have stolen the alphabet soup and theirs [sic] only corn and tiny dolls with green Don King hairdos left on the floor!!! :-s
It’s taboo, because most people in polite society don’t like to acknowledge their leaders are deliberately trying to provoke attacks, in order to strengthen their own leadership. It is bad for morale to acknowledge that the interests of the people and its leadership do no always converge, at least on the surface.
A similar taboo exists among herds of sheep, who don’t like to acknowledge that the shepherds, who take such good care of them, periodically load a portion of the flock into trucks for destinations unknown. The system works to everyone’s benefit, as none of the flock would survive except for the work of the shepherds. But you can’t explain that to the sheep en route to the slaughterhouse; it’s naturally difficult for them to appreciate the broader picture.
Similarly, the oil in the Middle East fuels western economies. Some people die in the wars to keep the oil flowing, but in the broader picture, everyone benefits.
” Some people die in the wars to keep the oil flowing, but in the broader picture, everyone benefits.”
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.
Spock
Just, ‘some people’ benefit a whole whole lot more, than others…
Mr. Muss–I like your take on this but to me, this is all Yuppie stuff. I remember when those little know-nothing’s started defining public style and it was all around politeness,being gentile, sipping wine with good manners. In 1985 they were all 15 years younger than me and they loathed the so called Hippy generation. Yuppies thought “you can’t fight city hall”, that classical music on the overhead showed good taste, that Nordstroms was a shrine, that going to church would make you rich, and that narcissism was a virtue. Oh yeah, and that tech was God. Because I like classical music, I didn’t have the bumper sticker that said ” Die Yuppie Scum” but I wish I had–witness what that generation hath wrought! Fortunately, they’re wilting now and we have the Kids with Conscience, who support Bernie and mostly agree with their grandparents generation–and I’m so glad to see them on the horizon.
Yuppie scum are all Hillaryous supporters.Guaranteed,as she fits their mold,entirely,A dumb phony vacuous believer in BS.
The cause of “Terror” everywhere is Governments. If you belong to or live under a government you are less safe. Governments set up, and allow these attacks on “their people” to pass more security laws to get more power. All governments around the world are trying to destroy the people they represent. Most all world “leaders” are controlled by a handful of people. This power came from stealing the power of the United States printing ability, and the globalist set up the Federal Reseve. Through this past 103 years of looting from the worlds most successful economy ever created, they have stolen a ton of wealth to buy off any country leaders. Everyone wake the f*ck up! GOVERNMENTS WANT TO KILL YOU!!!!!!!!
This is why the Clinton’s can sell missle technology to the Chineese, sell uranium to Russia, and set up a private email server where she sent Top Secret and Highly Classified documents that were hacked by foreigners. If they were not hacked, then why is foreign hacker “guccifer” extradited to the US and in prison now?
IF YOU FEEL GOVERNMENTS ATE HERE TO HELP YOU, please tell my why Edward Snowden has to go to enemies for protection, when simply telling the American people that the Government has been violating the Constitution (1st, 3rd, 4th and 5th Amendments).
At the same time Hilary Clinton can send Top Secret info over private (unprotected) servers,potentially putting Millions of American lives at risk, and she gets to run for POTUS and her husband gets a private meeting with her prosecutor.
She also laughs about her getting a CHILDREN RAPIST off when she knew he was guilty.
HILARY CLINTON HATES CHILDREN AND WOMEN.
SHE LOVES RAPIST THOUGH, I MEAN OBVIOSLY, SHE IS MARRIED TO ONE!!
Who in the f*ck do people think run our country?
It is the Federal Reserve!!!!!
Sell uranium to Russia?The hell bitch?Nah.
They probably have more reserves(of everything)than any nation on earth.
Get out of your trance ZOMBIE!
Left wing Hilary supporter?
Here is the info from your left wing news site that admits it. Read and learn somethings.
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/04/24/us/cash-flowed-to-clinton-foundation-as-russians-pressed-for-control-of-uranium-company.html
Knucklehead,I’m only trying to point out the absurdity of HRC selling or giving uranium to Russia,as she is a russophobic moron.
It is possible by her usual screwing up she inadvertently helped a Russian company,but again,Russia has more uranium than any nation on earth(?).So its really a non story,unless you are a Russophobe,and then its ideology impedance of brain function.
I find ideologue right wingers as dumb as ideologue left wingers,btw.
Sounded like you were saying like “what the hell b*t h”. No.
Anyway, glad you understand she is as criminal as it gets. My philosophy is FREEDOM!!! I’m an Anarcho-Capatalist and my only two laws are ……
1) Don’t aggress against anyone or their property.
2) Do all that you say you will (meaning contracts). This is ensure all the details of the contract.
I don’t care if someone is Democrat, Republican, rich, poor, black, white, ect…..
If you simply bring up morals and principals to these groups, they just might start coming together.
You seem pretty intelligent. Have you ever heard of Doug Casey? This man is the tip of the spear with what he has done and his philosophies.
I must say the Republicans are doing a pretty good job of tearing to shreds Comey’s actions.
Was the basement a secure location? Comey – No
Are there gaps in the emails? Comey – Yes
Was Clinton lying in her public statements? Comey – Yes.
…They are schooling Comey in something called “false exculpatory statements” and how that shows her intent.
Hmmm, and the Democrats are saying that Snowden and Assange are much worse than Clinton…because they deliberately published secret documents. But the law Clinton is accused of breaking isn’t about “publishing” is it? It’s about unauthorized storage.
And the Democrats say Clinton, a lawyer, secretary of state, apparently is just not “sophisticated” enough to understand classification.
Brilliant defence Democrats!!!
….Oh, and one of the Democrats just said it: “We don’t want to criminalize the political system” which in English means “people of Clinton’s class are above the law”.
Incidentally, the best woman in the race is raising the point that the missing “personal” emails are equivalent to the work emails.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/06/politics/jill-stein-hillary-clinton-fbi/
“This is equal to the volume of her emails designated as department business,” the statement reads. “If half of an employee’s email volume is for their personal business, they are not using their time for their job. If Secretary Clinton was conducting personal business for her family foundation through the secretary of state’s office, this is a matter the American public deserves to know about.”
You cannot convince religious fanatics that the leaders of
their crusade should be held responsible for the horrors and
injustice which are the hallmarks of their crusade.
Just as the report on Israeli aggression was attacked and dismissed
with NO consequences for the Israelis, this report will
be filed away and more viciousness and indifference will
be celebrated by the perversity of the Trump and Clinton
presidential pretense and with the sidelining of anyone
remotely “leftist” in the faking U$A and in its allied corporate
states because money is their god and,
to the desperately devout “exceptional” servants of capital
(the vast majority of voters in the faking U$A)
monetary might makes right.
A clarification.
It is not that the “terrorists” who claim to be acting in the name
of god under a muslim banner are really much different.
None of the “martyr/agents” involved in these atrocities
have a very high opinion of their god because none of them,
on any side, believe that their god can take care of things
without these agents violating the so-called laws which were
supposedly handed down by their god.
Killing, maiming, plundering, these are the results of their religion.
It is a shared religion of domination and power lust and it
is lawless, except for the mandatory intolerance of those
who they sees as non-believers.
Call it capitalism, call it christianity, call it judaism,
call it islam, call it hinduism…… they are legion and they are
all complicit in the worship of violence, indifference, and a
desire for self-serving domination.
Irreligious fanatics is the proper word.
I very much disagree.
Religiosity is at the core of all of this corruption.
Why do you think the Papal state has so much gold?
All religions promote riches and domination as a sign of superiority.
A short list of things Blair was warned about ahead of the invasion:
1. Increased risk of terrorist attacks in Britain
2. That British forces were inadequately funded and equipped
3. Sectarian breakdown in Iraq, which would be especially problematic in Baghdad
4. Iran and Saudi would use Iraq to fight a proxy war
He’s still not sorry though. Everything that could go wrong did, but it still wasn’t a mistake.
Maybe if he could be convicted of war crimes, he’ll change his mind.
small correction: there were 4 suicide bombers on 7/7: 3 on the tube, 1 on the bus.
Would it make any difference if Iraq really did have weapons of mass destruction?
No. For all their and Saddam’s faults, they were a secular country, uninvolved in 9/11 (or any other known terrorist organizations), under constant watch, and well aware that the tiniest linked use of WMDs would lead to incredible repercussions (as they saw without even having or using WMDs!). If Iraq used WMDs the silly piecemeal coalition of this last war would instead have been a massive one. Moreover they had no delivery technology.
Multiple inspectors, both at the time and from prior inspections indicated clearly that there were no WMDs, nor would any be found regardless (other than perhaps those forgotten in some administrative SNAFU, just like our government). Oddly this is what we found.
Even if all I say above is wrong, Iraq had no formal declarations of aggression, and thus like our allies in the region (eg: Israel), they have the right to self-determination and therefore WMDs to protect themselves, even if I might find WMDs reprehensible.
Finally, war seems a silly way to eliminate WMDs as if you really believe they exist, you put your armies at great risk. The only reason to hold WMDs is a MAD-like (Mutually Assured Destruction) gambit. Since destruction was ensured by western invasion, that would have been the only likely situation for Iraq to use them. That they didn’t in either war says a lot.
No, as bad as the Iraqi government was, there was no legal justification.
Why did we invade?
Not much.
It was still a war of aggression, illegal without UN authorization. It would have offered the war’s proponents a fall-back that Iraq was in material breach and that their intelligence was sound. So I guess they might have felt better about themselves, and on sounder footing if they ever faced a war crimes tribunal. But practically speaking, in terms of how things panned out in Iraq? Seems quite beside the point.
If they actually had nukes we wouldn’t have invaded.
The other WMD apparatus were mostly ww1 type gas stocks,of whom everyone has.
A total scam which America will pay for domestically(Dollars and division) and internationally(image) for years.
Since “We the People” of “Her Majesty’s Subjects” will fail to heed these lessons, sadly the only thing that will stop this militarism is the collapse of the Dollar and the Pound. End the FED and Bank of England and maybe the economic collapse won’t have to happen.
You will see this topic covered on MSNBC about as much as you see Jill Stein.
This makes no sense. The topic won’t likely be covered because there is no topic, it’s a theory, an opinion… it’s not a news event that can be covered.
And maybe we don’t see Jill Stein because there is a zero chance that she will get elected BECAUSE she has a similar theory.
You do realize Jill supporters like us are in the extreme minority? Why should we expect equal coverage? We have niche sites like The Intercept!
See above- she was on CNN today, and making a valid point about Clinton’s emails!
MSNBC won’t cover her since it’s a mostly Pro-Clinton/Pro-Obama network, as opposed to a Pro-Liberal one. (One is based on loyalty to people, no matter what they do. The other is loyalty to principle. Fox News veers between Pro-Conservative, Pro-Neocon, Pro-Trump and Anti-Obama.)
Not to argue in any way, and you have said this yourself, obviously our behavior does not justify violence against civilians (nor their behavior, the reverse). “terrorism” (quotes required) is wrong, period.
Still, as you note, it is a not unexpected byproduct. Moreover since we have left no true democratic, judicial, or even bureaucratic means of resolving their grievances, it is not surprising that they are resorting to extra-legal methods of resolution. When we call them “cowards” for terrorism, we forget that the alternative is a different sort of suicide. That is, if they were to take us on militarily they would simply be massacred. Just like the Patriots of the Revolutionary War, for right or wrong they realize conventional means are hopeless and reach to means that are not “conventional” by modern standards.
That does not make it right, but we have not offered them many avenues to make it right. Even those countries where democracies have prevailed, when contrary to our objectives, we have helped overthrow or ceased to recognize legitimacy (eg: Egypt, Palestine, Jordan).
In the end what amazes me is the complete lack of imagination of so many, not only in the public, but in leadership. When we drop bombs in a foreign country, why would we expect it would be interpreted the same way as we do? We somehow expect them to feel like the killing of their people, warranted or not, is a good thing because we are the “good guys”.
If France were to start assassinating or bombing our worst criminals on American soil, would we be praising the French for helping us? If some of our children were killed as an accidental byproduct of their efforts, would we simply forgive because France was “well intentioned”? No, we would be calling for French blood and many or our allies with us.
“terrorism” is wrong, but we are for the most part reaping what we have sewn.
On a related line, I should address the boogie-man of “Fundamentalist Islam”. The argument would be that no matter what, these Muslim extremists would be attacking us regardless for religious reasons. Islam, they say, is not a religion of peace and like the Communists, they want to “sap and impurify … our precious bodily fluids”. They will not stop until the entire world is Muslim and under Sharia law. It is not a response to western actions, but rather religious zealotry that drives “terrorism”.
I have no doubt there are a few Muslims who feel this way, just as there are radical Christians who would do about anything to forward their causes. I also have no doubt that it is likely that there are more Muslims this way, but I would argue desperate conditions create radicalization, and certainly Muslims countries are in desperate conditions for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is western military intervention (incidentally, we should talk – Trump and “brexit” show similar signs of radicalization. Bad times, yield bad answers).
Yes, terrorism is often couched in religious language often as most secular partisans are not willing to blow themselves up. Secular partisans, having only one life to live, obviously don’t see self-death as a solution. However as you have shown, even the most radicalized Muslims speak in clear secular language about their major aims – to end western intervention, military or otherwise, in the Muslim world. That is, just like America so desperately fought for, they want the right to self-determination, even if we might not agree with their ends for self-determination (and it isn’t “self-determination” if we require them to look politically, socially, and even morally like ourselves).
The point is, despite the propaganda, as you have noted, beyond “caliphates” there are very clear political objectives that have nothing to do with religion that we could address in the hope of ending the cycle of violence. That is, to largely disengage from interference in the Muslim world.
Now, if having extricated ourselves terrorism continues and Muslim countries and organizations threaten to violently take over other countries etc., then we can talk. However, non-interference seems an option that we’ve never actually tried. We have many claims why we cannot, but it is certainly not “evidence based”.
I for one, with my life and my family’s life, am willing to gamble here. To take the risk of trying non-violence and non-interference and seeing if it works. What we’re doing now certainly hasn’t and isn’t working. Non-interference, again, has the benefit as far as I can see, of being something that we have never actually tried.
So, you suggest we close down our “war machinery” industry?
Carl, in response to your second and third paragraphs I ran across an excerpt that might peak your interest to counter your stance that “desperate conditions create radicalization”.
When writing about Buddhism’s link to Japanese militarism in the years 1868-1945, Brian Victoria writes, “In fact, it is possible to argue that real value of the social ethics of any religion, Buddhism included, ought to be their application to those extreme situations in which secular ethical systems are apt to lose their authority.”
He continues, “What test of faith or awareness is there for the fair-weather believer?”
My argument is: religion that claims, by it’s disciples or in essence, to be of peace is true only if that religion’s followers demonstrate peace in the same situations that you argue produces radicalized adherents.
And who benefits? Follow the money– the Military Industrial Complex and the offshoot support industries (aid, refugee camp building etc). John Le Carre gets it once again in the Night Manager series.
Wars are a HUGE business and one that just keeps giving. Until we stop the money it will be ever thus…
I don’t think it is the only reason, straight financial gain from plunder, racism, etc. also factor in heavily I think. Still, I agree, this is an important component, just not the only one.
Spot-on as usual, Glenn! Alas, most US media outlets won’t care (In part since they backed the war) and the UK outlets have been hijacked (like the Guardian and the BBC (at least after the Hutton lies)).
All the more significant that Britain has a leader who had the judgement to oppose the attack on Iraq and has the strength to prevent those who still don’t recognize the calamity they caused, from taking back the leadership of the Labour party.
Blair announced today “Former British Prime Minister Tony Blair said he believes the world would be worse off today if it weren’t for the invasion of Iraq. ”
Shorter Blair:
I admit I made some mistakes but we still have cake!
Nuf said–as Karen said to Grace, on Will and Grace– there’ll be cake. I do like a nice cake replies Grace. I’ll say sez Teeny Tony