American Exceptionalism in its purest embodiment: The U.S. is not subject to the same rules and laws as other nations.
Turkey’s President Recep Tayyip Erdogan places the blame for this weekend’s failed coup attempt on an Islamic preacher and one-time ally, Fethullah Gulen (above), who now resides in Pennsylvania with a green card. Erdogan is demanding the U.S. extradite Gulen, citing prior extraditions by the Turkish government of terror suspects demanded by the U.S.: “Now we’re saying deliver this guy who’s on our terrorist list to us.” Erdogan has been requesting Gulen’s extradition from the U.S. for at least two years, on the ground that he has been subverting the Turkish government while harbored by the U.S. Thus far, the U.S. is refusing, with Secretary of State John Kerry demanding of Turkey: “Give us the evidence, show us the evidence. We need a solid legal foundation that meets the standard of extradition.”
In light of the presence on U.S. soil of someone the Turkish government regards as a “terrorist” and a direct threat to its national security, would Turkey be justified in dispatching a weaponized drone over Pennsylvania to find and kill Gulen if the U.S. continues to refuse to turn him over, or sending covert operatives to kidnap him? That was the question posed yesterday by Col. Morris Davis, former chief prosecutor of Guantánamo’s military commissions who resigned in protest over the use of torture-obtained evidence:
If Fethullah Gulen is considered a threat to Erdogan & Turkey's gov't doesn't Turkey have a right to drone strike him in Pennsylvania? @CNN
— Col. Morris Davis (@ColMorrisDavis) July 16, 2016
That question, of course, is raised by the fact that the U.S. has spent many years now doing exactly this: employing various means — including but not limited to drones — to abduct and kill people in multiple countries whom it has unilaterally decided (with no legal process) are “terrorists” or who otherwise are alleged to pose a threat to its national security. Since it cannot possibly be the case that the U.S. possesses legal rights that no other country can claim — right? — the question naturally arises whether Turkey would be entitled to abduct or kill someone it regards as a terrorist when the U.S. is harboring him and refuses to turn him over.
The only viable objection to Turkey’s assertion of this authority would be to claim that the U.S. limits its operations to places where lawlessness prevails, something that is not true of Pennsylvania. But this is an inaccurate description of the U.S.’s asserted entitlement. In fact, after 9/11, the U.S. threatened Afghanistan with bombing and invasion unless the Taliban government immediately turned over Osama bin Laden, and the Taliban’s answer was strikingly similar to what the U.S. just told Turkey about Gulen:
The ruling Taliban of Afghanistan today further complicated the status of Osama bin Laden and rejected the ultimatum of the United States that he and his lieutenants be handed over to answer for their suspected role in last week’s terrorist attacks in the United States.
The Taliban’s ambassador to Pakistan, Mullah Abdul Salam Zaeef, said at a news conference in Islamabad, “Our position in this regard is that if the Americans have evidence, they should produce it.” If they can prove their allegations, he said, “we are ready for a trial of Osama bin Laden.”
Asked again whether Mr. bin Laden would be surrendered, the ambassador replied, “Without evidence, no.”
The U.S. refused to provide any such evidence — “These demands are not open to negotiation or discussion,” said President George W. Bush at the time — and the U.S. bombing and invasion of Afghanistan began two weeks thereafter, and continues to this day, 15 years later. The justification there was not that the Taliban were incapable of arresting and extraditing bin Laden, but rather that they refused to do so without evidence of his guilt being provided and some legal/judicial action invoked.
Nor are such U.S. actions against individual terror suspects confined to countries where lawlessness prevails. In 2003, the CIA kidnapped a cleric from the streets of Milan, Italy, and shipped him to Egypt to be tortured (CIA agents involved have been prosecuted in Italy, though the U.S. government has vehemently defended them). In 2004, the U.S. abducted a German citizen in Macedonia, flew him to Afghanistan, tortured and drugged him, then unceremoniously dumped him back on the street when it realized he was innocent; but the U.S. has refused ever since to compensate him or even apologize, leaving his life in complete shambles. The U.S. has repeatedly killed people in Pakistan with drones and other attacks, including strikes when it had no idea who it was killing, and also stormed a compound in Abbottabad — where the Pakistani government has full reign — in order to kill Osama bin Laden in 2010.
U.S. drone kills of terror suspects (including its own citizens) are extremely popular among Americans, including (in the age of Obama) those who self-identify as liberal Democrats. Yet it’s virtually certain that Americans across the ideological spectrum would explode in nationalistic outrage if Turkey actually did the same thing in Pennsylvania; indeed, the consequences for Turkey if it dared to do so are hard to overstate.
That’s American Exceptionalism in its purest embodiment: The U.S. is not subject to the same rules and laws as other nations, but instead is entitled to assert power and punishment that is unique to itself, grounded in its superior status. Indeed, so ingrained is this pathology that the mere suggestion that the U.S. should be subject to the same laws and rules as everyone else inevitably provokes indignant accusations that the person is guilty of the greatest sin: comparing the United States of America to the lesser, inferior governments and countries of the world.
Talk to Al Jazeera: Hamid Gul on US drone strikes and other things
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aA4OiY-IB7A
The Taliban was never the govt of Afghanistan. The UN recognized Rabbani as the head of state for Afghanistan and recognized the Northern Alliance rather than the Taliban. The Taliban was associated with Al Qaeda following the 1998 Tomahawk strikes carried out by Clinton. It was actually quite nice of the US to extend the Taliban yet another chance to distance themselves from Al Qaeda. Which was promptly refused.
Pakistani ISI General Hamid Gul stated on record that 9/11 was an Inside Job
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSLgC4cTKcs
A 9/11 truther? Alrighty, then.
Al Qaeda is just the name of a CIA database? Are there any other documents that support this conclusion? The source for this humorous claim appears to be British Foreign Secretary Robin Cook—who has provided no explanation as to how he might know this. Also al-Qaeda means “the base.” Not “the computer database.”
Does that mean al-Qaeda was never real? Ayman al-Zawahiri and Abduallah Azzam never existed?The Sudanese and the Taliban were making stuff up when they discussed their sheltering of bin Laden? The CIA and FBI were spending billions and huge amounts of time attempting to investigate what was really a database? Al Qaeda in Iraq, Al Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb, and Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula are just different databases? Awlaki and dozens of other infamous al Qaeda figures were just computer simulations of some sort? The 9/11 commission that you rely on—were they duped as well?
Also, as far as I can tell there is no evidence of any US involvement with bin Laden during the 1980s Afghan jihad. Bin Laden was supported by the Saudis. The US had no direct dealing with the “Afghan Arabs.” They didn’t even have direct contact with the Afghans; instead relying on ISI to funnel its aid. Brigadier Mohammed Yousaf has confirmed as much in his memoir; the US policy debates over employing weapons like the Stinger missile reveal a US desire to keep the US role as indirect as possible. I’ve heard many conspiracy theories about al Qaeda and bin Laden. But where did this database thing come from?
Bin Laden had nothing to do with 9/11? Does that mean KSM made up the tales about his meetings with the Sheikh and with Mohammed Atef? Al Qaeda assassinated Ahmad Shah Massoud for nothing? Bin Laden’s 2004 videotape claiming responsibility for the attacks was also a fabrication? His public statements claiming responsibility were ruses? Yosri Fouda’s al-Jazeera interview with KSM and Bin al-Shibh was also a fabrication? KSM and the hijackers were never in Afghanistan?
Also, regarding KSM’s lack of a trial: There may well be harder evidence of KSM’s guilt; the problem is that much of the evidence appears to have been produced by torture. According to the Senate Committee’s report, however, KSM admitted to involvement in the plot before the “enhanced” techniques were even introduced. These techniques make a trial problematic at best. Likewise, Abu Zubaydah also revealed KSM’s role prior to being subjected to these techniques. I guess they’re hoping KSM will quietly die of natural causes.
And what the hell would an ex-ISI officer know of 9/11’s inner workings if he was out of government when the attacks took place?
(A computer database! LOL!)
you write:
“A 9/11 truther? Alrighty, then.”
I dislike being labelled and reduced to labels. I reject all attempts to label me.
So lets only talk about facts and nothing else.
Al Qaeda: The Data Base
http://www.globalresearch.ca/al-qaeda-the-database-2/24738
Lingering questions about Robin Cook’s death http://shaphan.typepad.com/blog/2006/05/questions_about.html
This article “Is the Saudi 9/11 Story Part of the Deception?” at http://www.unz.com/proberts/is-the-saudi-911-story-part-of-the-deception/ and the comments posted there are worth a read for those interested in the 9/11 truth.
Here’s some more from a comment there by Carlton Meyer of http://www.g2mil.com/
“Here is a summary of events for those confused by American corporate media. Al Qaeda is not an organization. It is a CIA computer database of armed Arab nationalists who violently oppose western domination of the Arab world. (Al Qaeda is Arabic for database.) This database was established by the CIA in the 1980s when our CIA trained and armed Arabs to fight the Russian occupation of Afghanistan. Osama Bin Laden (OBL) was never an official leader since it has never been a real organization, although he did lead a large group of Arab nationalists who lived in Afghanistan.
OBL had nothing to do with 9-11, he didn’t even know about it until it was reported in the media. He was never formally accused of the attacks because there is zero evidence. OBL was a wealthy Saudi who is said to have inspired the attacks. Our government blamed a Kuwaiti, Khalid Shaikh Mohammad (pictured), and a dozen Saudis who died in the airplanes. These persons had never been to Afghanistan and are said to have planned and trained for the attacks in the Philippines, Germany, and the USA. Then why was Afghanistan invaded, and later Iraq, Syria, Somalia, Sudan, Libya, and Yemen? But we did not invade Saudi Arabia! Instead, recall that days after 9-11 several jets from our federal Justice Department rounded up Saudi suspects in the USA and flew them home before FBI agents could ask them questions.
All this explains why the accused mastermind of the attacks, Khalid Shaikh Mohammad, has yet to go to trial almost 16 years since 9-11! He has not been allowed to speak to anyone outside the CIA. Even the 9-11 Commission was not allowed to interview him. The U.S. military set up a kangaroo court at Gitmo to hold a trial many years ago, but brave military defense lawyers keep causing delays by insisting on a fair trial. It seems evidence is so “sensitive” that our CIA does not want it revealed. even in a secret military court. Whenever documents are requested by the defense, some are destroyed instead! This included all the CIA interrogations of the accused!
Our media propaganda is so prevalent that nearly all Americans think OBL was the 9-11 mastermind, and since he is dead the case is closed. However, there is zero evidence of his involvement, something our government has long acknowledged. Americans watched thousands of hours of television coverage of the 9-11 attacks. Ask one if they think the accused mastermind of the attacks should be put on trial, and they’ll have no idea what you are talking about. More Americans are becoming aware and demanding action, who are demeaned as crazy “truthers”, which now include two former members of our government’s official 9-11 Commission once tasked with investigating these crimes. ”
And this from CanSpeccy of
http://canspeccy.blogspot.in/
“As anyone who has actually followed the news must know, the Saudi “hijackers” received US visas from the American visa bureau in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia on instructions from the CIA. (Source, among many) , so why is PCR discussing the Saudis-did-it, theory of 9/11 as if it had any merit?
What happened on 9/11 is not worth discussing. It was obviously a US inspired operation, with or without Israeli and/or Saudi assistance. It was the “catalyzing event” or the “Pearl Harbor of the 21st Century” as George Dubya Bush described it in his diary, specified by the Neocon think tank, the Project for the New American Century, as a necessary trigger for the “rebuilding of America’s Defenses” (signatories including JEB Bush and Dick Cheney).
The Saudis are neither suicidal nor are they led by lunatics, which means that they would never have attacked the homeland of the global hegemon, overtly or covertly.
The official account of 9/11 is self-evident bunk as the authors of the report themselves have stated. For example:
The co-chairs of the 9/11 Commission (Thomas Keane and Lee Hamilton) said that the CIA (and likely the White House) “obstructed our investigation”.
The co-chairs of the 9/11 Commission also said that the 9/11 Commissioners knew that military officials misrepresented the facts to the Commission, and the Commission considered recommending criminal charges for such false statements, yet didn’t bother to tell the American people (free subscription required).
Indeed, the co-chairs of the Commission now admit that the Commission largely operated based upon political considerations.
9/11 Commission co-chair Lee Hamilton says “I don’t believe for a minute we got everything right”, that the Commission was set up to fail, that people should keep asking questions about 9/11, that the 9/11 debate should continue, and that the 9/11 Commission report was only “the first draft” of history.
9/11 Commissioner Bob Kerrey said that “There are ample reasons to suspect that there may be some alternative to what we outlined in our version . . . We didn’t have access . . . .”
9/11 Commissioner Timothy Roemer said “We were extremely frustrated with the false statements we were getting”
Former 9/11 Commissioner Max Cleland resigned from the Commission, stating: “It is a national scandal”; “This investigation is now compromised”; and “One of these days we will have to get the full story because the 9-11 issue is so important to America. But this White House wants to cover it up”.
9/11 Commissioner John Lehman said that “We purposely put together a staff that had – in a way – conflicts of interest”.
The Senior Counsel to the 9/11 Commission (John Farmer) who led the 9/11 staff’s inquiry, said “I was shocked at how different the truth was from the way it was described …. The tapes told a radically different story from what had been told to us and the public for two years…. This is not spin. This is not true.”
How, technically, the operation was carried out is no political interest. All that matters is that Bush, Cheney and no doubt others should “come out with their hands up”, to quote Professor Morgan O. Reynolds who served in the Bush II Administration as Chief Economic Adviser.”
INTELWIRE RELEASES AWLAKI FOIA FILES; HIJACKER TRAVEL QUESTIONS
“INTELWIRE has obtained almost 2,000 pages of files related to Anwar Awlaki under the Freedom of Information Act.
Awlaki FOIA (256MB PDF, right click on link and save locally, do not open in browser) …”
at http://news.intelwire.com/2014/01/intelwire-releases-awlaki-foia-files.html
I have downloaded this file twice, but both times I got the message that the file was damaged and could not be repaired. Can this be found somewhere else on the internet?
Judge Napolitano: Killing US citizen Anwar al-Awlaki is Unconstitutional & Against American Values
How Obama got away with murder
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dqr_h_yCLDI
“You are good at disinformation and cover-ups.” I am? If I were good at covering up the truth and spreading disinformation, it wouldn’t take so much effort to try and convince you, lol. Which I probably never will.
You say the documents raise more questions than they answer. I can see why. They do not “confirm” the existence of a cover-up, or your suspicions that Awlaki was pawn in a 9/11 conspiracy. Ultimately, they do NOT prove these. They do add color to the suspicion that FBI attempted to recruit Awlaki after the attacks.
You write that I’m arguing Awlaki purchased the hijackers’ tickets. I am? What I did was mention the reports that serves as the basis for this suspicion. Then I mentioned the US government’s subsequent retractions of this accusation.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/01/04/fbi-refutes-claims-it-suspected-al-awlaki-role-in-purchasing-11-hijackers.html
I stand with this statement from Judicial Watch
“In response to the FBI, Judicial Watch President Tom Fitton released a statement Friday saying: “The FBI can clear up the matter by releasing the full document. It is a shame that we had to sue to get this basic information about the 9/11 attacks. The FBI spin should, accordingly, be taken with a grain of salt. This document was given to us by the FBI in response to a request about al-Aulaqi, so it is interesting that we are now told that the hijacker’s information disclosed in this document has nothing to do with him. Of course, Mr. al-Aulaqi was killed on orders of the president, so no one can pursue this inquiry with al-Aulaqi.” ”
No, I am saying that FBI docs show that Awlaki purchased plane tickets for the 9/11 hijackers. According to this Fox news report, FBI spokeswoman Kathleen Wright referred to some FBI chronology doc, is this available on the internet? I would like to see this for myself.
The FBI spin does not make sense.
To this, I would add that the entire 6 page FBI document at http://www.foxnews.com/politics/interactive/2013/01/03/fbi-documentation-al-awlaki-credit-purchases/ has Awlaki stamped on every page.
So the information contained therein for the 3 plane tickets pertains to Awlaki.
Why would the FBI redact this document so heavily. What is the national security need?
According to this report http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/01/04/fbi-refutes-claims-it-suspected-al-awlaki-role-in-purchasing-11-hijackers.html
“FBI spokeswoman Kathleen Wright cited a redacted FBI 2003 chronology titled “working draft chronology of events for hijackers and associates” to reinforce that the hijackers purchased their own tickets for cross-country surveillance flights in August 2001 and for another Florida flight in July of 2001. Wright pointed to four references citing bank/and or credit card transactions linked to the hijackers.”
The FBI chronologies can be accessed at https://vault.fbi.gov/9-11%20Commission%20Report/9-11-chronology-part-01-of-02/view and https://vault.fbi.gov/9-11%20Commission%20Report/9-11-chronology-part-02-of-02
We are concerned with part 2 of this chronology.
If there was an FBI cover-up as appears to be the case, this chronology would have zero evidential value as this chronology would essentially have been created to obliterate any evidence of Awlaki’s role.
But the Judicial Watch procured FBI document at http://www.foxnews.com/politics/interactive/2013/01/03/fbi-documentation-al-awlaki-credit-purchases/ which includes FBI emails sent on 26 September 2001 and which was transcribed on 27 September 2001 would have very high evidentiary value. Normally in a cover up, documents produced close to the event usually give out the truth as it takes time for the cover up to be planned and executed,
Now this FBI transcript of 27 September 2001 clearly shows that Awlaki procured at least three plane tickets for the hijackers.
The FBI chronology document also does not provide a complete chronology. Also the entries under the column Event (tier 1) are incomplete as if an excel sheet has been printed and then converted into a pdf which was redacted and released.
“TRAVEL CORRELATIONS
Some interesting data points emerge relating to travel by Awlaki and the hijackers, but the documents raise many more questions than they answer.
According to the documents, Awlaki and someone named “Dr.” Mohamed Atta flew out of the Frankfurt airport on the same United Airlines schedule, two days and two rows apart, in October 2000.
One possible explanation for this is that someone with the same name as Atta could have traveled on that date. There is no record in the 9/11 Commission report of a trip to Germany in this time frame, and an FBI chronology places Atta in the United States during the same period.
There is no record of Awlaki flying to Frankfurt, but he had traveled to Yemen in summer of 2000. The documents provide no further insight into the travel. The flight data only covers United Airlines, so it could have omitted a connecting flight for Awlaki from Yemen or elsewhere.
Hijacker Khalid al Mihdhar had traveled to Yemen some weeks prior to Awlaki, and Al Qaeda coordinator Ramzi Binalshibh was in Yemen at the same time. On September 15 in Yemen, Binalshibh applied for a visa to visit the United States, which was refused.
On October 23, Awlaki flew to the United States out of Frankfurt. On October 25, Binalshibh — now in Germany — again applied for a visa to travel to the U.S., which was again refused.
Given the conflicting information about Atta’s location, the correlations to Binalshibh’s movements are likely to be a more fruitful line of inquiry.
On August 23, 2001, Awlaki and Saeed Al Ghamdi, another hijacker, flew out of Dulles airport on the same day to different destinations.
As has been previously reported, Awlaki was on a plane from San Francisco to Washington, D.C. on the morning of September 11, 2001.”
From http://news.intelwire.com/2014/01/intelwire-releases-awlaki-foia-files.html
Lol, you never quit. Respect.
I did provide the document in posts below. The specific document I meant was the following. “Possible match” is taken directly from the document COLLECTION. I was referring to the report dealing with the credit card purchases: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/interactive/2013/01/03/fbi-documentation-al-awlaki-credit-purchases/
Let me restate what we know at this point about Awlaki’s connections. More importantly, let’s actually stick to the documentary record. In June 1999 FBI investigated Awlaki’s connections to Ziyad Khalil but found nothing, according to the 9/11 Commission. A 2000 investigation into alleged connections with Omar Abdel Rahman did not turn up anything. Awlaki also served as VP of the Charitable Society for Social Welfare, described by FBI as an al-Qaeda front in 2004. Hamzi and Mihdahr attended Awlaki’s mosque, and witnesses describe “closed-door” meetings between them. According to a landlord, Hazmi respected Awlaki and met him several times. Awlaki admitted to the FBI that he had met Hazmi. In 2001, Awlaki and the two al-Qaeda operatives relocated to the East Coast. The FBI investigated leads suggesting that he was some sort of procurement agent for bin Laden. There was nothing to prosecute him for. The 9/11 commission describes Awlaki as “potentially significant,” and the commission itself was reportedly divided about Awlaki’s connections. Members of the Congressional inquiry were also suspicious. When Mihdhar and Hazmi moved to San Diego near Bayoumi, there were four calls between Bayoumi and Awlaki. In an FBI interview, Awlaki did not deny having has contact with Mihdhar and Hazmi in California and later (with Hazmi, in Virginia (although he in another interview he denied any Virginia contact) His move to the East Coast paralleled theirs, a fact Awlaki could not and did not deny. The phone number of his mosque later turned up in Ramzi bin al-Shibh’s apartment. FBI later refuted claims that Awlaki purchased the hijackers’ tickets. Nor has the FBI denied its surveillance and recruitment efforts. The 9/11 commission never interviewed Awlaki. And that about sums up all we know about Awlaki’s connections to the hijackers.
Yes, Awlaki was connected to the hijackers. But we simply do not know if he was actually al-Qaeda at that time. You say that the evidence was sufficient for an arrest, interrogation and trial. Apparently your standards of evidence are low. All the FBI did in the wake of the attacks was surveil Awlaki, and they interviewed him at least three times. Awlaki did not allay their suspicions, and opened a formal investigation (surveillance, wiretaps, vetting his contacts, etc.) They found no terrorist ties. On March 22 the Virginia Criminal Information Network actually flagged Awlaki as a woman. When he returned to the US he had a warrant for a fraud charge that was apparently not acted upon.
In a March 22 sermon Awlaki criticized FBI’s raids on Islamic institutions in northern Virginia. He then went off on a planned speaking engagement in London. According to Awlaki’s younger brother, Awlaki expressed concern about what FBI had on him , but did not tell Ammar exactly what. (http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/08/26/magazine/30mag-awlaki-document-2.html) Awlaki) Accroding to this file, the manager of an escort service called him to warn Awlaki about Ammerman’s questions regarding Awlaki’s use of prostitutes, something the Bureau apparently knew about (Awlaki had been arrested at least twice for this) Maybe they were hoping to use these discoveries to pressure him as an informant, or to discredit him if he did turn out to be a jihadist.
Awlaki had made a US visit from Yemen in October 2002. The FBI has admitted that it knew about this visit, apparently in advance. During this visit, Awlaki was flagged by Customs based on arrest warrant. As I see it, there are only two explanations: FBI wanted to track him or recruit him as a contact. Of course, FBI has also claimed that the warrant was pulled because the case against Awlaki was too weak. Prosecutors also withdrew the passport fraud charges, concluding that no criminal case could be made.
In 2003 Awlaki actually called FBI requesting a meeting and called suspicions of ties to al-Qaeda “absurd.” FBI apparently did not assign a high priority. Eventually, his rhetoric became more violent. It is very possible that Awlaki’s move to Yemen was motivated by fear that his lifestyle would be exposed, and the damage it would do to his family and success. One escort manager informed Awlaki of the inquiries of the FBI’s Ammerman. Before this,The US in 2006 pressured the Yemenis to detain him. Some reports say he was detained without charges. Others say he was charged with kidnapping. Apparently he was also drawn to Sayidd Qutb’s teachings during confinement. He was released in 2007, perhaps due to family and tribal connections. Aware of Sana’a’s continued surveillance he fled to AQAP territory in Shabwah. He must have joined around this time. By June 2008 he began to blog about about his support for al-Qaeda, and AQAP head al-Wuhaishi announced his support. In 2010 the US designated him a terrorist. What, exactly about the above story (which pretty much sums up all we know at this point) seems so blatantly implausible?
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/30/magazine/the-lessons-of-anwar-al-awlaki.html
Yes, Awlaki was connected to the hijackers. And sure, Shaffer might even be right in saying that Awlaki was some sort of FBI asset. But there is no evidence he was connected to al-Qaeda BEFORE moving to Yemen. You cite the Judicial Watch documents as clear, unrefutable evidence of a 9/11 conspiracy. A READING of the documents does not actually bear this out. Also, you asked why I wanted to “cover this up.” I don’t. I’m addressing the so-called “evidence” for your conspiracy theories and demonstrating why your approach is flawed. Or, why I “think” it is, as you would no doubt prefer. And apparently your standard of proof is lower than mine; up to you, of course, but that about sums up our dispute.
The document you link to and which I had also linked to does not say that Awlaki did not buy the following plane tickets. This is confirmed. The words “possible matches only” are used in a different context. If you read the first paragraph carefully, the document lists queries and a different kind of inquiry which is redacted. It is only the results of the latter which are referred to as possible matches and these results are on an attached CD.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/interactive/2013/01/03/fbi-documentation-al-awlaki-credit-purchases/
In a later paragraph, the document refers to Query any reservations involving Awlaki or his visa card. Under that the following three plane ticket purchases are listed.
Mohammed Atta, America West Airlines, 08/13/2001, for a flight from Washington, DC, to Las Vegas, Nevada, to Miami, Florida.
S. Suqami, Southwest Airlines, 07/10/2001, for a flight from Ft. Lauderdale, Florida, to Orlando, Florida.
Al-Sheri, National Airlines, 08/01/2001, for a flight from San Francisco, California, to Las Vegas, Nevada, to Miami, Florida.”
You say “FBI later refuted claims that Awlaki purchased the hijackers’ tickets.” Show me one direct quote stating this from a named FBI official. There is nothing except a couple of news articles mentioning this vaguely without identifying an officer. Also, some reports on this say the FBI refused to comment.
You are good at disinformation and cover-ups. But now that you have set out your case for the first time, I will show exactly how full of holes it is. Will get back with a response to you here.
All the Government’s Men: Agents of Terror on Payroll
http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/2013/10/16/all-the-governments-men-agents-of-terror-on-payroll/
From wikipedia:
“When police investigating the 9/11 attacks raided the Hamburg apartment of Ramzi bin al-Shibh, they found the telephone number of al-Awlaki among bin al-Shibh’s personal contacts.[10][58] The FBI interviewed al-Awlaki four times in the eight days following the 9/11 attacks.[1][52] One detective later told the 9/11 Commission he believed al-Awlaki “was at the center of the 9/11 story”. And an FBI agent said, “if anyone had knowledge of the plot, it would have been” him, since “someone had to be in the U.S. and keep the hijackers spiritually focused”.[52] One 9/11 Commission staff member said: “Do I think he played a role in helping the hijackers here, knowing they were up to something? Yes. Do I think he was sent here for that purpose? I have no evidence for it.”[52] A separate Congressional Joint Inquiry into the 9/11 attacks suggested that al-Awlaki may have been connected to the hijackers, according to its director, Eleanor Hill.[52] In 2003, Representative Anna Eshoo (D-CA), a member of the House Intelligence Committee said, “In my view, he is more than a coincidental figure.”[65]”
I’m not spreading disinformation. I’m trying to go where the documented evidence leads me, and the evidence of Awlaki’s involvement in terrorist activity prior to his move to Yemen is unconvincing. Also, the Yemenis actually refused to extradite Awlaki and made statements that he would be tried in Yemen if captured.
There is no disputing Awlaki’s links to the FBI, or his connections to the hijackers. Like I said, this is a matter of public record, but it does not prove beyond a doubt that Awlaki was their patsy. Contacts between Awlaki and Bayoumi, al-Mihdhar and Hazmi have also been confirmed or judged likely. Likewise, his name WAS removed for a terrorist watchlist, although the reasons remain unknown. US intelligence did not link Awalki to al-Qaeda activity until 2008, and whether Awalki played a role in 9/11 has NEVER been proven. If you don’ t mind, I’ll stick to documented evidence here, and that’s as far as it’ll take anybody. Awalki was never formally charged, even during his detention in Yemen. At one point, the FBI also ordered Awlaki’s release from detention at JFK airport despite an active arrest warrant. The FBI has not denied attempting to recruit him. Other documents suggest he was an informant for FBI:
https://www.scribd.com/document/149699460/1488-05312013#page=190
Now, you’re welcome to reach the conclusion that Awlaki’s connections to US authorities prove beyond a doubt Awlaki’s status as a pawn in a 9/11 conspiracy. Certainly speculation and inference can lead to such a conclusion. Sticking to the documentary record, not necessarily.
You write “whether Awalki played a role in 9/11 has NEVER been proven”
Soon after 9/11 the FBI had documentary evidence that Al-Awlaki purchased plane tickets for the 9/11 hijackers. There was other witness and documentary evidence against Al-Awlaki.
Yet the FBI did not arrest Al-Awlaki. The FBI did not facilitate an interview of A-Awlaki with the 9/11 Commission even though it could. Clear dereliction of duty. He was practically forced out of the US. the only FBI interview with Al-Awalaki was carried out in London.
So this is the biggest red flag of a cover-up.
What I said/meant was that Awlaki’s OPERATIONAL role in the 9/11 plot as an al-Qaeda member as never been proven. Based on the evidence available to the public, this is true.
Yes, the FBI’s investigation documented Awlaki’s connections to some of the hijackers. These are suspicious on their face. And yes, Awlaki’s dealings with the hijackers have been well documented, such as monetary transactions between Awlaki and Mohammed Atta, and monetary transactions between Awlaki, Suqami and one of the Shehris. The FBI suspected within days of the attacks that Awlaki may have purchased tickets for some of the hijackers (it later refuted these suspicions) According to the 9/11 commission, the hijackers may have used these flights to conduct rehearsals. According to the documentary record, Awlaki was under FBI surveillance and uncooperative with the Bureau. In another instance, Awlaki was released from US custody despite a warrant for passport fraud issued AFTER the attacks. And Awlaki lied about meeting the hijackers when speaking to reporters. Smoke? Yes. Fire? Maybe.
The 9/11 commission did not interview Awlaki, but it did interview the FBI agent investigating Awlaki (Wade Ammerman) after the FBI investigation was closed. According to FBI, Awlaki fled to Yemen in the aftermath of the FBI’s inquiry into Awalki’s use of prostitutes. (http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB529-Anwar-al-Awlaki-File/documents/12)%20FBI%20Agent%20Wade%20Ammerman%20Oct%202003%20interview%20with%209%2011%20Commission%20investigators.pdf)
In 2007 the FBI interviewed Awlaki in a Yemeni prison. They do not appear to have gotten results. (http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB529-Anwar-al-Awlaki-File/documents/13)%20FBI%20arranges%202007%20interview%20with%20Awlaki%20in%20Yemen%20prison.pdf)
So no, Awlaki’s alleged operational role as an al-Qaeda associate in the 9/11 attacks has NOT been “proven” beyond a reasonable doubt. What HAS been proven is FBI’s attempted recruitment of Awlaki – AFTER the 9/11 attacks.
However, you seem to be among those advocating conspiracy theories that 9/11 was an American conspiracy. I find these theories unconvincing, and have no wish to engage in the endless, breathless flame wars that this debate inevitably produces.
(On a side note, I would recommend Anthony Summers’ book “The Eleventh Day” for a balanced critique of these theories and summary of the many suspicions surrounding 9/11 in general and Awlaki in particular.)
Sorry, here are the links I meant to post:
http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB529-Anwar-al-Awlaki-File/documents/12%20FBI%20Agent%20Wade%20Ammerman%20Oct%202003%20interview%20with%209%2011%20Commission%20investigators.pdf
http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB529-Anwar-al-Awlaki-File/documents/13)%20FBI%20arranges%202007%20interview%20with%20Awlaki%20in%20Yemen%20prison.pdf
And the other:
http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB529-Anwar-al-Awlaki-File/documents/13%20FBI%20arranges%202007%20interview%20with%20Awlaki%20in%20Yemen%20prison.pdf
You write: “The FBI suspected within days of the attacks that Awlaki may have purchased tickets for some of the hijackers (it later refuted these suspicions) “.
Actually Judicial Watch has procured and released FBI transcripts that establish this.
You write “What HAS been proven is FBI’s attempted recruitment of Awlaki – AFTER the 9/11 attacks.”
No this has not been proven. What has been proved is that the FBI let Awlaki who was clearly involved in the 9/11 attacks to escape.
If Awlaki’s voicemails to the FBI are released unredacted, the truth will come out.
You also write: “So no, Awlaki’s alleged operational role as an al-Qaeda associate in the 9/11 attacks has NOT been “proven” beyond a reasonable doubt.”
Well, who is to blame for this. If the FBI had not allowed Awlaki to escape he would have been tried in a US court of law for 9/11 and you would have got your stamp of guilt proved beyond reasonable doubt. The evidence against Awlaki was far stronger than the evidence of the only man convicted for 9/11 – Zacarias Moussaoui.
And Awlaki’s role in 9/11 would have also exposed if Al Qaeda was behind 9/11 or if it was false flag. Awlaki had CIA/ FBI ties before 9/11.
But the FBI very deliberately let Awlaki walk away. In fact they agonized over not being able to deport him. So they forced him out of the US.
“And Awlaki’s role in 9/11 would have also exposed if Al Qaeda was behind 9/11 or if it was false flag.”
I don’t see why the following possibility so hard to accept or understand: That Awlaki was not al-Qaeda before 9/11, nad that upon moving to Yemen he came around to accepting its ideology and becoming an AQAP propagandist.
Why do you think this is blatantly impossible?
Lets try and dissect this.
Is there evidence of close, extended and repeated contact between Awlaki and the 9/11 hijackers? YES, YES, YES
You say there is no evidence of Awlaki’s ties to Al Qaeda before 9/11. Accepted.
But evidence of his ties to the hijackers was sufficient for him to be arrested, interrogated and tried for 9/11.
What kind of BS investigation did the FBI do if it let Awlaki walk away.
Well, I also have no bandwidth at this time to discuss this further with you at this time in this very inefficient method of communication.
But the truth about Awlaki is at the core of 9/11.
Sorry, let me clarify.
I did not mean to say that the FBI’s recruitment of Awlaki was “proven.” I mean that the available evidence suggests it, given the documents in available and, again, the Bureau’s lack of a denial. Again, this AFTER 9/11, not before it. Also, the document in question describes the Awlaki linkage to the ticket purchases as a “possible match.” You write that, had Awlaki been tried, his connections to 9/11 would have been proven. I’m still not sure if you mean Awlaki was tied to the al-Qaeda members who carried out the attacks or whether you believe 9/11 was carried out by American government conspirators.
But again, Awlaki’s alleged operational role in the 9/11 plot as an al-Qaeda member has not been proven, as you have conceded just now. You automatically assume that Awlaki’s contacts with the 9/11 hijackers prove that he was in on the plot. Also, you write that the FBI “let” Awlaki “escape” the US “very deliberately.” The problem is that the case against Awlaki’s involvement in terrorism up until that point was never strong in the first place.
In sum, there is no evidence that Awlaki was in on the 9/11 plot, as you have just admitted.
You misrepresent me. This is what I have stated.
Awlaki was connected to 9/11 and was in on a part of the plot or facilitated it – There is enough evidence to reach this conclusion.
The FBI had this evidence but for unfathomable reasons let Awlaki walk away and eventually leave the country.
There is evidence of Awlaki’s ties to the FBI. the CIA and the Pentagon. He was very much an insider, as evidenced by his Pentagon invitation.
So it can be inferred that someone pressured the FBI to let Awlaki walk away.
The 9/11 link to Al Qaeda however is not fully established. There was a link to Saudi intelligence and to Prince Bandar who has again close ties to the CIA.
There was more than enough evidence of Awlaki’s involvement in 9/11 and to terrorism before he left the US and this was available even when he was in the UK.
What we also have is evidence of highly suspicious and irregular contact and interaction between the FBI and Awlaki after 9/11. This the FBI has attempted to explain by giving out false information that it was trying to recruit Awlaki. Now why would the FBI want to recruit Awlaki who was in touch with the hijackers for over a year, who bought plane tickets for them, etc., etc.. etc. This is the man the FBI should have arrested. Why would they attempt to recruit him. This recruiting disinformation that has been suggested but never established only shows that it was a cover-up attempt.
Judicial Watch has FBI documents establishing the following:
“According to a September 27, 2001, FBI transcription, obtained through the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) lawsuit (Judicial Watch v. U.S. Department of State and Federal Bureau of Investigations (No. 1:12-cv-00893)), al-Aulaqi purchased airline tickets for the following 9/11 hijackers:
Mohammed Atta, America West Airlines, 08/13/2001, for a flight from Washington, DC, to Las Vegas, Nevada, to Miami, Florida.
S. Suqami, Southwest Airlines, 07/10/2001, for a flight from Ft. Lauderdale, Florida, to Orlando, Florida.
Al-Sheri, National Airlines, 08/01/2001, for a flight from San Francisco, California, to Las Vegas, Nevada, to Miami, Florida.”
Source – http://www.judicialwatch.org/press-room/press-releases/uncovered-docs-indicate-fbi-knew-u-s-born-terrorist-anwar-al-aulaqi-purchased-airline-tickets-for-911-hijackers-when-he-dined-at-the-pentagon/
Yet you state “Also, the document in question describes the Awlaki linkage to the ticket purchases as a “possible match.”
Where do you get this from? Which document? You do not provide a reference.
Judicial Watch has FBI documents establishing the following:
“According to a September 27, 2001, FBI transcription, obtained through the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) lawsuit (Judicial Watch v. U.S. Department of State and Federal Bureau of Investigations (No. 1:12-cv-00893)), al-Aulaqi purchased airline tickets for the following 9/11 hijackers:
Mohammed Atta, America West Airlines, 08/13/2001, for a flight from Washington, DC, to Las Vegas, Nevada, to Miami, Florida.
S. Suqami, Southwest Airlines, 07/10/2001, for a flight from Ft. Lauderdale, Florida, to Orlando, Florida.
Al-Sheri, National Airlines, 08/01/2001, for a flight from San Francisco, California, to Las Vegas, Nevada, to Miami, Florida.”
Source – http://www.judicialwatch.org/press-room/press-releases/uncovered-docs-indicate-fbi-knew-u-s-born-terrorist-anwar-al-aulaqi-purchased-airline-tickets-for-911-hijackers-when-he-dined-at-the-pentagon/
These FBI records are here https://www.scribd.com/document/118844616/Awlaki-FBI-Records
The FBI found out that Awlaki’s credit card was used to make these plane ticket purchases for Mohammed Atta, S. Suqami, and Al-Sheri, three of the 9/11 hijackers.
Yet you state “Also, the document in question describes the Awlaki linkage to the ticket purchases as a “possible match.”
Where do you get this from? Which document? You do not provide a reference.
Why do you want to cover this up?
In 1998 and 1999, Al-Awlaki served as vice-president for the Charitable Society for Social Welfare. In 2004, the FBI described this group as a “front organization to funnel money to terrorists”
When police investigating the 9/11 attacks raided the Hamburg apartment of Ramzi bin al-Shibh, they found the telephone number of al-Awlaki among bin al-Shibh’s personal contacts.
By 2007, the US knew that Al-Awlaki was according to them a terrorist. He was a US citizen. In 2007 he was in a Yemeni prison. Why did the US not extradite him then. Why was he released?
Anwar al-Awlaki the US citizen who was droned was also in touch with the 9/11 hijackers. Judicial Watch procured documents showed that later he was in touch with FBI agents . Emails procured by Judicial Watch show that some of these FBI agents were wary of being connected to him. Yet the US government never captured, interrogated or prosecuted him. He was effectively forced to leave the US and was then put on a kill list. He was in London after leaving the US and even them was in touch with the FBI.
This report examines the Anwar al-Awlaki and FBI emails and concludes that he was an FBI/ CIA asset. And he was connected to more than one of the 9/11 hijackers. http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/10/01/enemy-or-asset-fbi-documents-show-radical-cleric-awlaki-communicated-with.html
Also read his wikipedia entry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Awlaki
So this man who was a FBI/CIA asset and tied up to 9/11 was never arrested while he was on US soil and later when he was in London. Instead he was eventually “branded” a terrorist, driven out to Yemen and droned. He obviously knew too much.
An investigation is needed into these documents and emails, and into how the FBI dealt with Anwar al-Awlaki .
Here is more – Dead Men Tell No Tales: The CIA, 9/11 and the Anwar Al-Awlaki Assassination http://www.globalresearch.ca/dead-men-tell-no-tales-the-cia-9-11-and-the-awlaki-assassination/27001
Read Anwar Al-Awlaki’s Links to the September 11 Hijackers http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/09/anwar-al-awlakis-links-to-the-september-11-hijackers/244796/
With all this evidence of links between the 9/11 hijackers and Anwar Al-Awlaki, the FBI never arrested and interrogated him to find out what his role was? !
This article also states: ” Most of Awlaki’s associates who helped the hijackers have since been deported or have left the country under their own volition. ”
So who did the FBI interrogate or investigate if not the people who were found to have helped the hijackers.
Shouldn’t the CIA/ FBI have water-boarded these people to uncover the plot?
Instead they were all allowed to walk away from the 9/11 investigation, including Anwar Al-Awlaki.
An extract from the article:
“In the immediate wake of September 11, a number of journalists probed Omar al-Bayoumi’s relationship to the hijackers but turned up little new information. Questions were raised but never answered about the possibility Bayoumi was a “handler” for the hijackers, working on behalf of someone in Saudi Arabia. A Congressional probe found that Bayoumi had “tasked” some San Diego Muslims to assist the hijackers.
But most of the people who provided assistance to the hijackers in San Diego were as close to Awlaki as they were to Bayoumi, if not closer. For the helpers, Awlaki was not just a friend or an acquaintance, as they described Bayoumi, but an authority figure and a source of inspiration. Was Awlaki at the center of the network, rather than the long-scrutinized Bayoumi?
Perhaps the most damning indication that Awlaki may have been involved with the plot is the Virginia leg of the hijacker’s trip across America. Even if the hijackers found him by chance in San Diego, the evidence strongly suggests they sought him out in Falls Church, far away from Bayoumi and his network of friends. In reviewing their many interactions as they traveled around the U.S. in the months before September 2001, it is Awlaki, not Bayoumi, who emerges as the most common thread.
The hijackers didn’t show up in Virginia and stumble into the first mosque they found. They selected Dar El Hijrah while still in Arizona, and information about the mosque was also held by the September 11 facilitator Binalshibh.
Nor did the hijackers delay in finding Awlaki; according to FBI logs of their ATM withdrawals, they showed up at Dar El Hijrah immediately on arriving in Virginia.
One FBI agent who investigated the helpers told the 9/11 Commission, “if anyone had knowledge of the plot, it was Awlaki.” Others echoed this suspicion, although some were inclined to call it coincidence. “
Here is a FBI email after Awlaki left a voicemail for an FBI agent.
“In one Oct. 2, 2003 email, an FBI agent whose name is redacted writes to a colleague regarding a voicemail: “Holy crap, [redacted] isn’t this your guy? The aman (imam) with the prostitutes.”
From http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/10/01/enemy-or-asset-fbi-documents-show-radical-cleric-awlaki-communicated-with.html
Where is this voicemail? Why does it need to be secret? Why are the names of FBI agents redacted.
What was it about this voicemail left by Awlaki that led the FBI agent to exclaim Holy crap! What did the rest of the email say? Why is that redacted?
Yes, I should respect the national sovereignty of a pit like Pakistan.
And I should also respect the word of dictators like Erdogan. Eat a dick, Greenwald.
Who are the 8 Americans Killed by Drone Strikes?
http://www.allgov.com/news/us-and-the-world/who-are-the-8-americans-killed-by-drone-strikes-150427?news=856342
What double speak you present. In a nutshell what you describe is the actions of a bully. Not many people like, or tolerate for long a bully. Most likely your parents gave you some education on this. The USA is the biggest bully on Earth. Like other bully nation’s in history, they all failed. We, as Americans, are witnessing the death throes of a country whose citizenry fell asleep at the mall while an ever more deranged government sold us and the world to the highest bidders. Sad as it is, it’s true.
Great thought experiment and useful illustration about integrity. But, three points in response. First, with regard to Afghanistan, neither the U.S. nor the UN recognized the Taliban as the government of Afghanistan in 2001 (or at any time). Their armed takeover of the country was a de facto state of lawlessness. Second, regarding Pakistan, it is highly likely that many and perhaps all drone strikes and incursions into Pakistan have been done with the tacit approval of the Pakistani government (the bin Laden raid a notable but understandable exception). Third, it may be that the U.S. has violated international and/or domestic law in the other incidents you cite, but that neither justifies Turkey’s theoretical violation of the same or similar laws, nor does it strip the U.S. of its sovereign rights under those laws.
“Third, it may be that the U.S. has violated international and/or domestic law in the other incidents you cite, but that neither justifies Turkey’s theoretical violation of the same or similar laws, nor does it strip the U.S. of its sovereign rights under those laws.”
The above is a restatement of US Exceptionalism, the laws apply to everyone else, the laws do not apply to the US.
Well, yes, it IS a legitimate question, especially legally. I’m personally not sure this is explicitly legal or illegal, but that there are circumstances in which this is legitimate, as I have argued below. But that’s just me.
I appreciate the interesting and spirited debate in any case.
The US has also killed American citizens in drone strikes, some as collateral damage but incredibly in the case of US citizen Anwar Al-Awlaki after putting him on an official US Government kill list.
Awlaki was denied his procedural and substantive due process rights under the US Constitution. Incredibly, even a US Court refused to intervene saying that Awlaki needed to file the proceeding himself, while at that time he was locked up in a Yemeni prison under US Government pressure without being charged for a crime. The US pressured the Yemen authorities to keep Awlaki locked up, and this appears to have been done to prevent Awlaki from returning to or attempting to return to the US.
Awalaki, a CIA/FBI asset was a central figure in the 9/11 attacks and appears to have been a threat that could have exposed the CIA role in 9/11.
See
The due-process-free assassination of U.S. citizens is now reality
Without a shred of due process, far from any battlefield, President Obama succeeds in killing Anwar al-Awlaki http://www.salon.com/2011/09/30/awlaki_6/
and
Anwar al-Awlaki’s extrajudicial murder https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/sep/30/anwar-awlaki-extrajudicial-murder
I’m aware of the Awlaki case, and remain conflicted as to the legality of this particular strike, although I ultimately understand the reasoning.
One the one hand, the US government killing an American citizen without even the semblance of due process is disturbing to say the least. In fact, the US government found it easier to order his death than it did to order wiretaps. The US government in effect decided that Awlaki’s alleged inspiration of jihadist attacks on the US homeland posed a threat and ordered his death on the basis of secret intelligence and without criminal charges or a chance to defend himself.
The government’s case for killing Awlaki rested on the assumption that acts of terror are plotted in secret, that the government’s interest in responding to an imminent threat outweighed Awlaki’s “private interest” in staying alive, due process, vs. judicial process, the analogy of an American law enforcement officer killing a fleeing American suspect, and the infeasibility of mounting a capture operation in southern Yemen.
On the other hand, wartime actions and peacetime law enforcement are not the same, and since 9/11 the US has treated the conflict with al-Qaeda as a war. The US government used Congress’s justification for military actions against international terrorism to target Awlaki. According this, the US is at “war” with al-Qaeda, where only surrendering combatants are entitled to protection. According to the laws of war, it is not necessary to demand surrender before engaging. According to this theory, drone strikes are legal if the target is an enemy combatant. The terms “civilian” and “non-combatant” are not necessarily the same.
Nobody argues that Awlaki WASN’T aiding al-Qaeda. But the US government decided that US citizenship does not protect you if you materially conspire to harm the US. In World War II, for example, several German-Americans fought for Germany, and were killed on the battlefield. Another argument was that Awlaki was simply “proselytizing” and his speech was protected by the first amendment. In World War II, Mildred Gillars (a US citizen) broadcast Axis propaganda in Europe, captured by the US and convicted of treason. According to the court, her material aid made her an enemy combatant.
This problem also explains the origins of the American “kill list.” This list is simply a compilation of designated combatants, and is intended to determine who is a terrorist (not who “deserves to die”), and is meant to ensure that any targets actually qualify as combatants. While capture is always preferable, this is not always a feasible option in such risky theaters as southern Yemen.
In my own opinion, Awlaki was materially aiding al-Qaeda; he was designated as a legal conbatant and treated accordingly. Any attempt to broaden this relatively narrow justification would be troubling.
https://www.aclu.org/legal-document/aclu-v-doj-foia-request-olc-memo?redirect=national-security/anwar-al-aulaqi-foia-request-olc-memo
Also, regarding the allegation that Awlaki was a CIA/FBI “asset.” It has been widely reported that Awlaki worked with the FBI following the 9/11 attacks. It has also been reported that Awlaki was at one point released from US custody despite an active warrant for his arrest. Declassified documents seem to confirm that Awlaki was in contact with FBI. The Bureau has not denied attempting to recruit Awlaki, and Awlaki’s brief imprisonment in Yemen was in part based on US recommendations, and of course, he was placed on a kill list shortly afterwards. It was after these events that he joined AQAP. Whether Awlaki had any operational role in the 9/11 attacks has never been proven.
These facts are all interesting and relevant, but did Awlaki’s US connections have any influence in Awlaki’s decision to travel to Yemen and serve as an AQAP propagandist there? I think not.
You should read my comments on Al-Awlaki on this thread establishing his ties to 9/11, his ties to the CIA/FBI before and after 9/11, how the FBI forced him out of the US instead of arresting him, and how his assassination was a 9/11 clean up op. The US could have always captured him whenever they wanted. But he had to be killed without trial because dead men tell no tales.
https://theintercept.com/2016/07/15/saudi-ties-to-911-detailed-in-documents-suppressed-since-2002/?comments=1#comments
I have reviewed the comments. As far as I can tell there is no hard evidence of Awlaki’s involvement in the attacks, nor of the allegation that capturing Awlaki in Yemen would have been easy.
During FBI’s investigation, Awlaki admitted to meeting Nawaf al-Hazmi several times. Congress’ Joint Inquiry refers to him as the hijackers’ “spiritual adviser.” When Awlaki moved to Virginia, Hamzi and another hijacker met him again and attended his mosque, although Awlaki claimed not to have met them in Virginia. Awlaki was also in contact with Omar al-Bayoumi, who allegedly befriended Hazmi and Mihdhar, and whose employer was close to the Saudi government. And that’s all we know at the moment.
You also write of Awlaki’s ties to CIA and FBI. FBI’s surveillance of Awlaki in Washington is a matter of public record. I have found no evidence to even suggest any CIA linkage. You write that FBI “forced” Awlaki out of the US. In reality, he had a planned speaking engagement in London. From there he went to Yemen. It was here that he began espousing jihadist rhetoric. The US then pressured the Yemenis to detain him in 2006 (he was released the next year) The Yemenis continued to surveil him; and he then fled to Shabwah Province (AQAP territory), where he became an al-Qaeda propagandist.
Following these events, Awlaki was linked to 2009 Christmas Day bomber and the October 2010 ink cartridge bombing attempts. The Charlie Hebdo attackers, the Tsarnaev brothers, Carlos Bledsoe, and Nidal Hasan all cited him as influences. Then, of course, he was killed in a drone strike.
Capturing Awlaki in Yemen was an option for the US, but I doubt it was seriously considered. By the time Awlaki was in Yemen, the country was basically having a civil war, with AQAP in the south, and the Houthis in the north. The US could not have captured him “whenever they wanted.” A capture was preferable, but the situation on the ground caused the US to favor a drone strike. Direct US action in Yemen via US ground troops seems pretty rare, probably due to risk.
Awlaki was targeted for his alleged involvement in plotting or inspiring terrorism on US soil, NOT because he knew secrets about some 9/11 conspiracy.
OK – here goes. Lets expose your disinformation one by one.
Al-Awlaki’s ties to 9/11.
Anwar al-Awlaki Was A FBI Asset, Triple Agent Before 9/11 1/3 – Lt Col. Anthony Shaffeer on video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmluzUxLhXU
“Despite this email and an offer to speak with U.S. officials, the final report of the Commission notes that its members were unable to locate al-Aulaqi for an interview during the course of their investigation. The report describes al-Aulaqi’s prior relationship with at least two of the 9/11 hijackers as a “remarkable coincidence” and describes him as a “potentially significant San Diego contact” of the hijackers.
Al-Aulaqi’s email offering to meet with the FBI after being identified as a person of interest by the Commission is the latest in a series of events that have fueled speculation that he was an asset or an intelligence source for the U.S. government.
Indeed, one memo obtained by Judicial Watch from then-FBI Director Robert Mueller to then-Attorney General John Ashcroft on October 3, 2002 — seven days before the imam suddenly re-entered the U.S., was detained and then released at JFK Airport – is marked “Secret” and titled “Anwar Aulaqi: IT-UBL/AL-QAEDA.” The FBI ordered al-Aulaqi’s release at JFK, even though an arrest warrant was still active at the time of his detention. On October 22, 2002, 12 days after the imam’s return, another FBI memo, also marked “Secret,” includes the subject line “Anwar Nasser Aulaqi” and “Synopsis: Asset reporting.” ”
From http://www.judicialwatch.org/press-room/press-releases/new-documents-show-fbi-kept-channels-open-al-aulaqi-despite-terrorist-designation/
“FBI email apparently also on December 21, 2003 – “… the [FBI] 9/11 Commission Task Force (Task Force) has received numerous and unrelenting requests from the NATIONAL COMMISSION ON TERRORISM (9/11 Commission) regarding closed WFO [Washington Field Office] subject Anwar Aulaqi. These requests stemmed from WFO’s revelation to 9/11 Commission staff member [REDACTED] that an individual representing himself as Aulaqi left several telephone messages on SA [REDACTED] office voice mail. WFO EC dated 11/25/03 provides explicit details regarding these voice messages, and 9/11Commission is aware of the same … Nonetheless, for reasons not clearly discernable to the Task Force, the 9/11 Commission reiterates the following Miscellaneous Request [REDACTED].” [Emphasis added]”
from http://www.judicialwatch.org/press-room/press-releases/new-documents-show-fbi-kept-channels-open-al-aulaqi-despite-terrorist-designation/
The Anwar al-Awlaki File
http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB529-Anwar-al-Awlaki-File/
Was Anwar al-Awlaki a U.S. Agent?
http://www.covertbookreport.com/was-anwar-al-awlaki-a-u-s-agent/
FBI ADMITS PENTAGON DINNER GUEST AL-AWLAKI WORKED FOR THEM
http://www.infowars.com/fbi-admits-pentagon-dinner-guest-al-awlaki-worked-for-them/
U.S. Government: Documents Pertaining to Awlaki Being an Asset on “An Agency” Payroll Are All Classified
http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/2013/10/06/u-s-government-documents-pertaining-to-awlaki-being-an-asset-on-an-agency-payroll-are-all-classified/
“American-born cleric Awlaki’s role as a key figure in almost every recent terror plot targeting the United States and Canada, coupled with his visit to the Pentagon, only confirms our long stated position that Awlaki is a chief terrorist patsy-handler for the CIA – he is the federal government’s premier false flag agent.”
From http://www.prisonplanet.com/al-qaeda-mastermind-invited-to-pentagon-after-911.html
I think the CIA/FBI asset Anwar Al-Awlaki was a key player in facilitating the hijackers part of the 9/11 conspiracy. He was also probably an ultimate patsy and probably did not know of the whole plan to bring down the buildings.
Being a US citizen and given the existence of evidence of his ties to the CIA/ FBI and given his deep roots in local US communities (for eg. he was a Muslim chaplain at George Washington University), the American plotters and their helpers in the CIA/ FBI could not immediately ditch him after 9/11. He would have exposed them. So he was kept comfortable for a few years after 9/11 while being simultaneously targeted by the FBI, then made to leave the US. He was probably further used as an asset by the CIA – when he continued to lecture in the UK and slowly became more radical. Eventually, he was pushed out to Yemen, vilified as Al Qaeda, then put on a kill-list and droned. He was never able to tell his story in a court of law about 9/11.
This is worth a read http://www.historycommons.org/timeline.jsp?other_al-qaeda_operatives=complete_911_timeline_anwar_al_awlaki&timeline=complete_911_timeline
Complete 911 Timeline
Anwar Al-Awlaki
“According to a September 27, 2001, FBI transcription, obtained through the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) lawsuit (Judicial Watch v. U.S. Department of State and Federal Bureau of Investigations (No. 1:12-cv-00893)), al-Aulaqi purchased airline tickets for the following 9/11 hijackers:
Mohammed Atta, America West Airlines, 08/13/2001, for a flight from Washington, DC, to Las Vegas, Nevada, to Miami, Florida.
S. Suqami, Southwest Airlines, 07/10/2001, for a flight from Ft. Lauderdale, Florida, to Orlando, Florida.
Al-Sheri, National Airlines, 08/01/2001, for a flight from San Francisco, California, to Las Vegas, Nevada, to Miami, Florida.”
From http://www.judicialwatch.org/press-room/press-releases/uncovered-docs-indicate-fbi-knew-u-s-born-terrorist-anwar-al-aulaqi-purchased-airline-tickets-for-911-hijackers-when-he-dined-at-the-pentagon/
“FBI undated email, likely in 2004 after Al Aulaqi had moved to Yemen – “… Apparently the 9/11 Commission is interested in interviewing Anwar Al-Aulaqi and some members are en route to Yemen to try and do that … I was interviewed by the 09/11 Commission on 10/16 about Aulaqi … They were obviously interested but made no requests for assistance in setting up their potential interview with Aulaqi. According to [REDACTED] the 09/11 Commission that is enroute to Yemen is now trying to figure out how they’re going to arrange the interview of Aulaqi once they get there.””
From http://www.judicialwatch.org/press-room/press-releases/new-documents-show-fbi-kept-channels-open-al-aulaqi-despite-terrorist-designation/
“FBI email from December 21, 2003 – “… I would like copies of all e-mail contacts between [REDACTED] and Aulaqi as soon as possible. They [apparently the 9/11 Commission] have requested copies of these e-mails. I will discuss the content with the commission staff and determine what the course of action will be. This is a hot topic for them and they have been relentless in their desire to interview Aulaqi.” [Emphasis added]”
From http://www.judicialwatch.org/press-room/press-releases/new-documents-show-fbi-kept-channels-open-al-aulaqi-despite-terrorist-designation/
“FBI email from December 15, 2003 – “SA [REDACTED] has had a conversation with Aulaqi and has tentatively set up an interview for mid March. With the Va. Jihad trial scheduled for early Feb. this is will be the earliest SA [REDACTED] can meet Aulaqi [REDACTED] With that said, we would not want to do the interview with the 9/11 commission. If the 9/11 commission needs to meet with Aulaqi, we will provide the contact information so they can set up their own interview.” [Emphasis added]”
from http://www.judicialwatch.org/press-room/press-releases/new-documents-show-fbi-kept-channels-open-al-aulaqi-despite-terrorist-designation/
“On October 23, 2003, al-Aulaqi wrote (after first leaving a voice mail) to an unnamed official at the FBI Academy:
I was astonished by some of the talk circulating in the media about me. I was even more surprised to know that the congressional report on Sep 11 had alluded to me as being a “spiritual adviser” to the hijackers. The Guardian newspaper in the UK mentioned that the US authorities are looking for me in the UK while Time magazine mentions that they are looking for me in Yemen. Well in both countries I could be easily accessed. Even though I have nothing more to say than what I did at our previous meetings I just wanted to let you know that I am around and available. I am amazed at how absurd the media could be and I hope that the US authorities know better and realize that what was mentioned about me was nothing but lies.”
From http://www.judicialwatch.org/press-room/press-releases/new-documents-show-fbi-kept-channels-open-al-aulaqi-despite-terrorist-designation/
Radical al-Qaeda cleric Anwar al-Awlaki ‘purchased plane tickets for 9/11 hijackers’ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/al-qaeda/9781370/Radical-al-Qaeda-cleric-Anwar-al-Awlaki-purchased-plane-tickets-for-911-hijackers.html
Two weeks after 9/11, the FBI had documents showing this. Yet instead of being arrested in the 9/11 investigation, he was invited to the Pentagon, he was detained in 2002 on a passport issue and then released on FBI orders, and later allowed to leave the US. He was again detained by US authorities and released twice in 2006 and 2007.
It would be very fruitful for those who want to uncover the truth about 9/11 to focus on how the FBI engaged with Awlaki before and after 9/11 . If the FBI or the 9/11 Commission covered up the Awlaki connection, then that would be a crime. Awalaki was probably the FBI/CIA asset tying up Americans to the conspiracy.
The first step should be to fault US authorities and actors who after 9/11 facilitated the cover-up. This cover-up itself would be treason.
I’m not trying to play games. I just doubt the idea that these governments are genuinely opposed to the US drone strikes, which, again, is the key detail we’re disagreeing with here.
Regarding the center in Yemen. “Joint operations,” of course, implies cooperation. Now, Pakistan. The negotiations were not conducted solely between the US and ISI
(http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/11/world/asia/pakistan-musharraf-drones/)
Pakistanis claim that drone strikes violate their sovereignty. How can it make this argument if it technically allows terrorist groups to do the same and attack countries like India (i.e. Lashkar-e Taiba) The Taliban operates in Balochistan, the Haqqani network in Waziristan. Didn’t bin Laden violate Pakistani sovereignty by living near Islamabad unhindered and undetected? Pakistan does not apparently apply the sovereignty argument to foreign fighters. If these governments REALLY oppose US drone strikes, are they just plain helpless?
The conventional wisdom about Pakistan’s universal opposition to the strikes is not empirically buttressed. Many Pakistanis polled have never even heard of the program. (http://www.pewresearch.org/daily-number/little-knowledge-of-drone-strikes-in-pakistan/) Pakistani public opinion is not well informed or unanimous. Pakistani officials range from supportive to indifferent. Many US-Pakistani tensions over the program come not from Pakistan’s opposition but from its desire for an increased role in decisionmaking. See also the Peshawar Declaration
(https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08ISLAMABAD609_a.html)(http://defence.pk/threads/view-drone-attacks-%C2%97-myth-and-reality-%C2%97-muhammad-zubair.185243/)
Another point I wish to revisit: the argument that nation-states permitting another state to carry out military/paramilitary action on its own soil is somehow illegitimate. If a nation-state is sovereign and autonomous, there are no international laws barring it from inviting intervention (i.e. US strikes in the semi-autonomous FATA, US strikes in the troubled region of southern Yemen, French action in Mali, and international action against ISIS) Article 2 (7) UNC bars the UN from intervening in other states’ “domestic jurisdiction.” States can govern themselves, and they can also invite an ally’s use of force. The 1974 Definition of Aggression indirectly acknowledges the existence of consent. Governments speak for the state, according to international law. US and British action against ISIS, for example, was based on the Iraqi government’s invitation.
Also, you suggest that Mark Mazzetti may be unreliable and too close to the US government because of ONE instance of CIA “vetting.” Mazzetti is the same reporter who broke the story about the CIA’s destruction of its interrogation tapes, and the same reporter who leaked the name of the CIA’s drone-program chief, AS WELL AS OTHER UNDERCOVER OFFICERS despite their requests not to do so. Hardly the CIA crony you portray him as. Likewise, you seem to think these incidents of “collaboration” mar the entire record and credibility of the paper and reporter. Do you even know how national security journalism works? It requires talking to whistleblowers and, more commonly, senior officials and it also requires judgment as to whether or not to publish certain state secrets. I’m sure the almighty Glenn Greenwald is not guilty of the unpardonable crime of contacting a senior intelligence official for background. And Wikipedia? Really?
Another objection you raised, regarding foreign cooperation with the US drone program: Yes, these sources exist. A simple web search should have sufficed, but if you absolutely insist. Here are all of the illegitimate sources I’ve used, as well as stuff I’ve fabricated, lol.
Pakistan:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/top-pakistani-leaders-secretly-backed-cia-drone-campaign-secret-documents-show/2013/10/23/15e6b0d8-3beb-11e3-b6a9-da62c264f40e_story.html
http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/24/politics/u-s-drones-pakistan-report/
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/spotlight/binladenfiles/2013/07/201378143927822246.html
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-24649840
https://www.lawfareblog.com/implied-consent-drone-strikes-congressional-briefings-dorm-rooms-and-property-disputes
https://www.theguardian.com/world/us-embassy-cables-documents/167125
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/wikileaks-cable-pakistan-asked-fewer-drones/story?id=13647893
http://tribune.com.pk/story/478880/a%E2%80%90question%E2%80%90of%E2%80%90sovereignty/?fb_action_ids%C2%BC10151199413465003&fb_action_types%C2%BCog.likes&fb_source%C2%BCaggregation&fb_aggregation_id%C2%BC288381481237582
https://therearenosunglasses.wordpress.com/2010/01/02/drone-attacks-challenging-some-fabrications/
https://lubpak.com/archives/229457
https://wikileaks.org/gifiles/docs/32/3223340_-os-us-pakistan-mil-ct-wikileaks-kayani-wanted-more-drone.html
http://www.dawn.com/news/690180/us-pak-intelligence-cooperation-continues
Yemen:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/yemeni-president-acknowledges-approving-us-drone-strikes/2012/09/29/09bec2ae-0a56-11e2-afff-d6c7f20a83bf_story.html
https://news.vice.com/article/britains-covert-war-in-yemen-a-vice-news-investigation
https://www.rt.com/news/saudi-help-us-yemen-361/
Somalia:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/al-shabaab-leader-hassan-ali-dhoore-killed-in-us-drone-strike-in-somalia-a6964736.html
http://www.raxanreeb.com/2014/01/somalia-government-spokesman-says-they-were-pre-informed-u-s-drone-strike-against-al-shabab-commander/
Back to your main point, that these strikes do not have the legitimate permission of the host governments. I have cited repeated articles that demonstrate (or “suggest”, as you would undoubtedly prefer) that the drone program is not a unilateral US operation. You have not disproven these claims. What standard of proof, exactly, do you require, given the limitations involved here? You want me to get a security clearance, start leaking some state secrets? Lol.
I did some research at my end about US drone strikes in Pakistan and to what extent can it be argued that the Pakistani Government authorized these.
Yes, there are Wikileaks documents that suggest that Pakistani military leaders, political leaders in the Civilian Government and ISI people knew that the US was droning and that there was some level of approval or acquiescence.
But lets look at this legally. From the point of view of international law, US law and Pakistani law. Because the legality issue is basically an issue of compliance with law.
The basic legal principle against targeted killings is that citizens have a right to due process under domestic Constitutions and law. Thus a person suspected of a serious crime cannot be outright murdered/ executed but the crime must be established in a court of law and the person punished thereafter.
Let me for the sake of argument, use India as an example. An Indian citizen suspected of terrorism has these due process rights guaranteed as fundamental rights against the Indian State. Extra-judicially killings are a violation of human rights, both domestically and internationally guaranteed.
Now imagine that a RAW head enters into a secret understanding with the CIA, that the CIA can simply kill a Indian terror suspect through targeted killing on Indian soil. This would be an illegal act (murder) in India and violate international law, the Indian Constitution and Indian law. It might even amount to treason.
Now imagine if an Indian Army General authorized the CIA. This would still be illegal and constitute treason.
Now imagine if the Indian Prime Minister entered into such a secret deal with the CIA. Imagine that the Indian Prime Minister actively misled the Indian Parliament about the existence of such secret deal. This would still be illegal.
Would such a deal be recorded in writing. probably not.
The only legitimate way to do this would be by a Presidential order executed under the seal of the Indian President. but even then this would violate the Indian Constitution and the India Supreme Court would rule against such an order.
We all know the kinds of influence including bribery, blackmail, threats etc., that the CIA can employ against members of the Pakistani establishment. I am sure the Pakistani establishment lives in real dread of a US invasion if they do not succumb to US pressure. And of assassinations.
But the legal point is – even if some people in the ISI, in the Pakistan army, in the Civil Government entered into such secret understandings with the CIA or the US military or the State Dept., but while the Government of Pakistan as a whole kept denying the existence of any such deals, any such deals cannot have the legitimacy of law and would violate the Pakistan Constitution.
State sovereignty cannot be so easily waived off by oral and secret deals. Imagine, would this be possible under the US Constitution? Could someone in the Pentagon cut a similar deal with the Mossad for targeted killing of a US citizen on US territory and not be prosecuted for murder if exposed.
You patronizingly write:
“Do you even know how national security journalism works?”
Actually I can well imagine. And am sure that a fair number of such journalists are used by organizations like the CIA to run their propaganda.
I’m just saying that all national security journalists rely on senior officials AS WELL as whistleblowers. But it’s not like all reporters and editors are completely gullable and malleable when they do so.
“Chinese Missile Strikes, Kills Caravan of American College Students” a satirical account of the possible future of drone strikes at
http://goldenrulenews.org/chinese-missile-strikes-kills-caravan-of-american-college-students/
This looks like a good source for information on US drone attacks
https://www.propublica.org/series/drones
Poor Pakistan – see http://www.asianage.com/international/pak-turns-china-over-us-drone-strikes-942
Pak turns to China over US drone strikes
Also the US has started a new drone arms race.
See http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/05/chinas-drone-race-video_n_2810885.html
http://thediplomat.com/2015/01/china-and-the-lethal-drone-option/
http://www.cnbc.com/2016/03/03/china-a-rising-drone-weapons-dealer-to-the-world.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.in/entry/china-drone-program-pentagon_n_2807014 China Drone Program ‘Alarming,’ Pentagon Says – Ha!
American Drones Ignite New Arms Race From Gaza To Iran To China http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/27/american-drones_n_2199193.html
And this is what China thinks of US drone strikes. From http://www.shanghaidaily.com/article/article_xinhua.aspx?id=331473
“Backgrounder: How U.S. drone strikes kill innocent civilians?
BEIJING, July 21 (Xinhua) — After the Sept. 11 terror attacks in 2001, the United States substantially increased its use of drones to strike suspected terrorists in at least seven countries — Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, Iraq, Somalia, Libya and Syria.
On July 1, the White House for the first time released the civilian casualties of U.S. counterterrorism strikes overseas, saying that between 64 and 116 civilians were killed in 437 U.S. strikes conducted in countries including Pakistan, Libya, Yemen and Somalia from 2009 to 2015.
However, the figures have been gravely questioned, and data from some non-governmental organizations (NGOs) and media agencies show them as untrue.
The following are some facts and data from NGOs, government agencies and media reports:
— On Oct. 17, 2001, the U.S. military sent RQ-1 predator drones to strike the targets in Afghanistan, which was the first time that U.S. drones carried weapons for actual combat.
— In 2004, the United States began to launch drone air strikes in Pakistan.
— Since U.S. President Barrack Obama took office in 2009, the U.S. government has intensified drone strikes.
— Starting from October 2015, the U.S. Department of Defense allowed the military to launch air strikes against specific targets and relax the restrictions on incidental civilian casualties.
— In June, peace activists protesting the leading role of the Ramstein Air Base in western Germany in the U.S. drone program said that U.S. military drones had killed more than 6,000 people since 2010, or on average one terrorist per 40 innocent civilians.
— A U.S. Federal Bureau of Investigation investigation report on Hillary Clinton’s email scandal said that, from 2011 to 2012, the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) launched multiple drone strikes in countries like Pakistan, Yemen and Somalia, killing about 1,000 civilians, including 200 children in Pakistan.
— The Bureau of Investigative Journalism, an independent initiative based in London said that between 424 and 966 civilians were killed in U.S. drone strikes in Pakistan alone since 2004, including at least 172 children. While between 52 and 152 civilians died in 75 U.S. drone strikes in Pakistan in 2011.
— According to the Foundation for Fundamental Rights, an organization working for drone victims in Pakistan, at least 3,000 Pakistani civilians, including more than 200 kids, have been killed so far by the CIA-controlled drone strikes.
— A human rights group based in Britain said that 225 Yemeni civilians died in U.S. drone strikes in 2012 alone.p — The Washington Post website reported in September 2014 that, from January to mid-April in 2014, U.S. drone bombardments and strikes led to the deaths of 753 to 965 people.
— Data from Yemeni news investigation agencies showed that Yemen had suffered 126 to 146 U.S. drone strikes in recent years, which led to the deaths of 550 to 802 people, including at least 65 to 101 Yemeni civilians.
— The British newspaper Daily Mail reported in October 2015 that 219 people were bombed to death in a U.S. operation launched in northeastern Afghanistan, among whom only 35 ones were the targets.
The above numbers show that the figures of civilian casualties published by the United States are dramatically lower. The U.S. use of drones to kill innocent people gravely violates human rights and the sovereignty of other countries.
In addition, the U.S. use of drones in war operations in countries like Somalia, Yemen, Pakistan, upon whom the United States has not declared war, is a grave violation of the Geneva Convention.”
I think Mr Greenwald could have just exemplified how comparing the United States of America to the lesser would be as comparing Mrs Clinton mail scandal and its no further investigation to the so-mentioned cases of Mr Snowden and so many others chased by obama’s administration. It’s just shameless and outrageous. How the world is managed by the US and how the US is managed by this elite of hypocritical and all-saint people
If America drones Turkey, then it’s OK for Turkey to drone America. If America drones any country, then that same country can drone America. But I’d prefer that no one drone anyone and try to get along with the whole world and get rid of the ‘War mongers’. Are you listening America???????
The job of leadership comes with a trap and a temptation. The lack of real personal power elsewhere in society, and the narcistic appeal for positions of power over others and authority as an ambition, together create an overwhelming draw to underachievers looking to fill a hole.
I personally do not believe that either Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton are such characters. However it does appear that Hillary is easily duped for some reason, perhaps lack of real confidence.
Novo Califa Erdogan . Esta LINCHANDO la Oposição !!! Se’ eu morara na Turquia ,eu estaria ditida,presa ,pois e’ facil virar ANTI-Erdogan ,Eu soi ANTI-DCTADORES .
Two more attacks directed at the west because of America’s special relationship with Israel. The first was in Germany where a 17 year old attacked passengers on a train with an ax injuring four – two seriously:
“……Besides the hand-drawn or painted flag, police found notes in Pashto written in Arabic and Latin characters in the assailants’ room… “And now pray for me that I can avenge myself on the unbelievers and pray for me that I will go to heaven.”……the attack was “politically motivated”. He said the assailant posted cryptic messages on the Internet a few hours before the attack, talking about enemies of Islam…….”
The attacker was a refugee from Afghanistan which will put more pressure on Merkle and the refugee issue in Germany/Europe (as well as the US). A second attack occurred at a resort where a mother and three daughters were attacked by a man of Moroccan descent:
“……..French authorities have detained a Moroccan man after he stabbed a woman and her three daughters……The motive for the attack was not immediately clear……The woman, 46, and her girls, aged eight, 12 and 14, were staying at a holiday village near the town of Laragne-Montéglin, in the Hautes-Alpes region…….Jean-Marc Duprat, a deputy mayor for the nearby town, initially said the attacker was upset with his victims because they were wearing shorts and T-shirts. He later said that did not appear to be the case ……….Raphaël Balland, a public prosecutor, said the motive for the attack was “very hazy”. Balland said the idea that the assailant could have been upset over what his victims were wearing was merely a “rumour” and that he had “not uttered any words reproaching them for their dress at the moment of the attack”……A police source told the Nouvel Obs: “No words of a religious connotation were uttered.”……”
Everyone is backtracking on the motives but this looks like another religiously (Islam) motivated assault. He even stabbed a 8 year old girl reminding many of recent Palestinian terrorism.
If you insist on not learning to use simple html tags or better yet, a “magical html text editor program” to block-quote and otherwise format your posts for better clarity regardless of content, at least provide us all with links, or at the very least, a title to the source(s) from which you quote.
His cites come from his own statements he posts elsewhere on the internet – it’s the ol’ cheney-as-reported trick.
Ha! I’d ask for citations for that – but it’s his credibility on the line, not yours.
I don’t think the quotations are too difficult to figure out in this case – although at times it does get a little messy. I always should include sources, but these stories can be read in multiple media outlets which is why I didn’t include any.
Thanks.
Not thinking has become a problem, therefore…
Your reasoning follows suit, therefore unsurprisingly yet circular-logically, you note…
Yeah… Reasoning skill grows on trees, too…
Brilliant writing, as usual, Glenn. Just wanted to correct one thing here. Osama died in 2011 not 2010. Thanks from Canada.
Brilliant piece. I do think that mass of Americans fundamentally understand that their system is flawed, which is why Trump will be the GOP nominee.
Because Trump doesn’t respect or honor the law anymore than Obama does, how is his nomination going to help this situation? As nominee he has no real power. Our laws are already being broken, and Trump thinks that he can do whatever he wants so it’s only gonna get worse if he wins, god forbid.
I wonder if Turkey could hire Israel’s Mossad to deal with Gulen under some false flag or other. Just such is one of the Mossad’s core competencies, and it would seem Turkey has need of it at this moment.
Leave it to the experts, I say.
i think you’re on to something.
alas – their coordication center is no more.
Tisk…Tisk… If we want the countries of the world to coexist the CIA cannot be
allowed to exist. Plain and simple. Otherwise we all sit and watch the world annihilate itself. Pass the popcorn please.
Very simply put. For starters read the “Devil’s Chessboard.” JFK realized the same thing and was murdered. The citizens of the US allowed the man who was trying to make this a better, safer world for all people to be crucified. That crime goes unpunished to this day.
Too many times have we seen American “exceptionalism” at work – it has almost become a daily occurrence. For instance, the US routinely breaks international law by invading other countries or covert operations in other countries which breaks the UN Charter, Article 2(4). Where are the sanctions against the US? How about “torturing some folks” or killing with impunity in these drone strikes? But the thing that stands out the most, meanwhile the US is bombing in 7 countries along with covert operations in 75 countries etc., is that American politicians will be the first to criticize other nations for doing even a fraction of what it does. I think that it is the mentality of “exceptionalism” that let’s these stupid wars continue and why the world largely voted the US as the largest threat to world peace – I fully agree with that assessment.
Wouldn’t it be wonderful if Turkey actually went after this cleric in Pennsylvania, and wouldn’t it be great if the US then went after Turkey? I would love to see the ensuing mess, when Turkey invoked the all for one and one for all part of the NATO Treaty, demanding that all other NATO members protect it from American wrath. What a delicious prospect!
Ooh, nice fantasy! Think I’ll sit back and enjoy that for awhile.
The strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must
I like to remind people of OPERATION GLADIO, the NATO clandestine, hidden army being used to do terrorism whenever our “elected” officials need a boost in the voters support for anything they want.
Many of these terrorist acts in France, Belgium, Turkey and the USA look suspiciously following similar procedures to how GLADIO operates.
What I find is most people are not even aware this “left behind” army exists at the disposal of our filthy governments.
Check it out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio
In case anybody is wondering why trucks are mowing down people in Nice….in a country where 70 percent of prisoners in French prisons are Muslims, and why outside of prison, Muslims are not even free to dress as they wish, and why fears of Muslim immigrants in Britain has led to brexit….Meet Kelvin MacKenzie. He’s upset that reporter Fatima Manji, wearing a scarf (actually a hijab) appears on British TV to cover the story in France:
This is hilarious on so many levels. It must be disconcerting for them, Murdoch’s “the Sun” got it’s brexit, yet Muslims are still allowed on TV! What the….???? And why didn’t Channel 4 send Kelvin Mackenzie to cover Nice….he so clearly understands race relations in southern France.
But just for argument’s sake, let’s assume that Mackenzie is right and Fatima Manji, award winning reporter, is secretly a fifth columnist for terrorists, what kind of things would she do when she takes power???….impose religious tests on reporters?….like Mackenzie does? Mackenzie doesn’t want to see a Muslim woman on screen, he wants channel 4 de-funded…he wants, as he says, “balance”.
Like I said, I feel for them, What does a brexiteer have to do to get the Muslims out? “Taking back control ” hasn’t finished the job….maybe Britain should try “make Britain great again”. It’s all the rage in America.
None of this should be news to Americans…it turns out that poor, discriminated against minorities end up over represented in the prison system. And banning expressions of their faith, when faith may be all they have left….not a good idea. Kind of like, I don’t know, the police taking a 12 year old black boy in America and shooting him, and getting away with it. People get angry, for some reason.
An even more extreme case than Headley’s, I think, are Posada Carriles’ and Orlando Bosch’s. Those two US-trained terrorists “freedom-lovingly” blew up a plane in midair packed with teenagers and were sought by a good share of Latin American as well as European countries for doing things that range from kicking a pregnant woman in public to training corrupt central American countries on how to kill and torture people with plenty of practical, on-hand “classes” and bombings that killed European tourists in Cuban hotels.
~
// __ Twilight of the Assassins: Why the U.S. Refuses to Prosecute the Cuban Exiles Luis Posada Carriles & Orlando Bosch For the 1976 Bombing of Cubana Airlines Flight 455
OCTOBER 10, 2006
http://www.democracynow.org/2006/10/10/twilight_of_the_assassins_why_the
~
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando_Bosch
~
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luis_Posada_Carriles
The US Government has been heavily criticized in some circles, especially in the context of the War on Terror as well as being hypocritical as far as the Bush Doctrine goes. International law, including the UN Security Council Resolution 1373 of September, 2001, states that countries should not give safe haven or any kind of assistance to people involved in present or past terrorist activities. The final declaration of the XIVth Ibero-American Summit, held in Salamanca in October 2005, includes a demand to “extradite or judge the man responsible for the terrorist blowing-up of a plane of Cubana Aviation in October 1976, which caused the death of 73 innocent civilians”.[51]
~
After migrating to Venezuela in 1968, Posada spent the years until 1985 involved in various terrorist activities in the region; until 1976, he continued to have ties to the CIA. He was convicted in absentia in Panama of involvement in various terrorist attacks and plots in the Americas, including 1976 bombing of a Cuban airliner that killed 73 people;[12][13] however, he has always denied involvement.[14] Along with Orlando Bosch, he was also involved in founding the Coordination of United Revolutionary Organizations, described by the FBI as a terrorist outfit.[15] In 1985, he re-established links to the CIA, and moved to Central America, where he became involved with United States support to the Contras, and later admitted to playing a part in the Iran-Contra affair.[16]
In later years, he admitted involvement in a string of bombings in 1997 targeting fashionable Cuban hotels and nightspots.[17][18][19] In addition, he was jailed under accusations related to an assassination attempt on Fidel Castro in Panama in 2000, although he was later pardoned by Panamanian President Mireya Moscoso in the final days of her term.[20]
~
Even that wikipedia article seems to have been edited by sh!lls for “political correctness”:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_pardoned_by_George_H._W._Bush
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_pardoned_or_granted_clemency_by_the_President_of_the_United_States
they are talking about Panamanian President Mireya Moscoso pardoning him, but they are not telling you that the very U.S. President George Bush (father) “pardoned” Bosch out of prison. He actually kept proudly boasting about being a terrorist to the end of his life and all kinds of national and international courts have asked every U.S. president since daddy Bush to extradite them to no avail.
But well, my “freedom lovers” are your “terrorists”, it seems
RCL
That was my idea!! You have stolen it !!!
The statement in the article that “Erdogan has been requesting Gulen’s extradition from the U.S. for at least two years” is plaintly wrong as Erdogan himself admits that no official request has ever been sent up to now.
What’s “plainly wrong” is your objection. Rather obviously, the requests thus far have been “informal.”
Any country with half an airforce can deny there airspace to a drone operated by the US.
The US kills people in other countries either a) at the invitation of that country or b) it’s a failed state that cannot exorcize it sovereignty.
As far as assassinating him, difficult in a country with the rule of law, and always has been a good way to start a war. (For any country including the US)
“The rule of law”??????
The only constant rule in the faking U$A is that
increasing privatized profits determine policy and
policy is determined on a case by case basis.
The faking U$A used the horrors of slavery to gain global power
for its elites and now they use warmongering and the
lie of “security” to continue their lust for profits.
To them, laws are the most malleable of pretenses.
>”The US kills people in other countries either a) at the invitation of that country or b) it’s a failed state that cannot exorcize it sovereignty.”
That was not the case in Afghanistan. Certainly no ‘invitation’ and, exercising it’s sovereignty (such as it was), the Taliban offered to extradite OBL upon objective probable cause.
*I do suppose Matt, when one finds oneself thrust way up in the tall timbers sawing mightily on the limbs of State Sovereignty, one should always be mindful which side the branch one is sitting on.
It is high time, south american and asian countries exact on the US the same kind of justice the US dispensed on them.
Accusing those Americans of hypocrisy is like accusing the zombies, who have just wrecked an entire town, of being impolite.
It is well-worth considering whether the powers behind the powers in the U.S. might have taken a page from Ayatollah Khomeini’s script with what many are suspecting is their latest bungle in Turkey.
In February 1979 the popular Iranian religious leader Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini returned to Tehran from France, where he had been in political exile for 14 years. He was greeted by crowds of millions.
The C.I.A. and British Intelligence had been fumbling about with Iranian politics for decades only to find their latest puppet leader, Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi, being forced to flee the country by political unrest that threatened to see him being literally torn apart in the streets by angry crowds of demonstrators.
It is easy to see a group of C.I.A. bunglers – encouraged by anonymous members of groups like the American Enterprise Insitute – thinkng they can stage a coup in Turkey that bears a striking resemblance to the Iranian Revolution of 1979.
A few changes were made to this production, all of them involving role reversal in the hope achieving an ending, more to the liking of the C.I.A.
This time the C.I.A. would support the exiled ‘mad Ayatollah’ who would be played as a sane and wise cleric by Fethullah Gulen, whohas been exiled to Pennsylvania. The ‘Shah’ would be the mad one in this production. Portrayed by a ‘crazed’ Erdogan he was scripted to flee into exile in Germany.
It was predicted that the new cast would produce the same ending, only better, as the ‘good guys’ would win this time.
Unfortunately, the leads just wouldn’t follow the 1979 script. The ‘mad Ayatollah’ remains in exile and the ‘crazed Shah’ remains on his throne in Ankara.
Of course, we have to consider the possibility this may have just been a dress rehearsal.
Naturally. Act II is when erdyboy is “removed” from office and gulenguy flies in for the big movement in the bowels of turkey. What could possibly go wrong? Act III would be where everything backfires, turkey goes full blown ISIS to dispell the kurds and the US is once again looking to stoke up wmd and invading another country.
Can any international law status be self-certified unilaterally.
The US: We do what we want because we can. We are exceptional.
The rest of the world: No you are not.
Here’s another great example of American exceptionalism. US terrorist and CIA asset David Headley who facilitated the Mumbai attack of 2008 was neither droned nor extradited. The US gave him a deal that he would never be extradited to India. The Indian Government under Modi, which country has not even got anything close to 78 billion dollars in American aid, caved in and actually “pardoned” Headley so that he would never face prosecution or cross-examination in a criminal trial ongoing in India.
The US produced Headley before an Indian Court by video link and even refused to tell the Judge the location Headley was being held at. And all the time, Headley was surrounded by FBI and DOJ people who were there to intervene and stop Headley from being asked by the Indian Judge anything the US did not want him to be asked.
Now this is US exceptionalism.
True, but there are many countries which don’t extradite their citizens. Brazil, for one.
Yes, but India and the US have an extradition treaty.
David Headley has admitted his participation in the 2008 Mumbai attack, many questions about which remain unanswered.
Headley was a CIA asset and the Mumbai attack has false flag elements.
So the people of India deserved a trial of Headley in India for a terrorist act on Indian soil in which over 160 persons including police officers lost their lives.
Also, its pathetic how the Indian Government caved in to US pressure and pardoned Headley. What is disturbing is that there was practically no outrage in India over this pardon. The Indian Court further used a false reason to explain its pardon to Headley, namely that this was required to convince Headley to provide evidence. Actually, Headley’s plea agreement with the US DOJ itself explicitly required him to submit himself to the jurisdiction of an Indian Court for his role in the attacks and to provide his true testimony.
How do the US DOJ and FBI justify their role in preventing Headley from being tried in India.
Of course the reason was to prevent Headley from being asked questions which would have exposed the official story pointing towards Pakistan as the main sponsor as false and which might have exposed a CIA/ Mossad role, which even Indian police and intelligence agents have hinted at.
How is the US the bad guy with this one? I looked up David Headley on Wikipedia – he is serving a 35 year prison sentence in the US, reduced in exchange for extensive cooperation against his fellow terrorists. That might sound like a sweetheart deal, but in *Mumbai* the courts pardoned him as a prosecution witness (“approver”): http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Mumbai-court-pardons-David-Headley-makes-him-an-approver-in-26/11-case/articleshow/50125617.cms So if the US had extradited him, for all I know he’d be hanging out by the beach today, bragging about his exploits. You can spin that as the US making India do something, but to me it looks like the US is keeping him in jail for something very close to the rest of his life.
I reproduce below what I wrote in response to another comment. But let me add to that.
The fact sequence was – Headley a CIA asset is found to have a role in the Mumbai 2008 attacks. India asks for him to be extradited. The US does not extradite him but tries him for complicity in the Mumbai attacks and a proposed attack in Denmark. He is not actually tried, he pleads guilty, and is promised he will not get the death penalty and will not be extradited. There is no full trial of Headley, Indian witnesses and evidence is not presented so the whole truth never comes out. See https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/chicago/press-releases/2013/david-colemen-headley-sentenced-to-35-years-in-prison-for-role-in-india-and-denmark-terror-plots
The Indian court process for Headley starts much after this. Where the Indian Court unlawfully and on false pretenses pardons him so that his testimony is limited and controlled. This is done under US pressure, so that much of the CIA involvement in the plot remains covered up.
My response on this topic to another comment is below.
Yes, but India and the US have an extradition treaty.
David Headley has admitted his participation in the 2008 Mumbai attack, many questions about which remain unanswered.
Headley was a CIA asset and the Mumbai attack has false flag elements.
So the people of India deserved a trial of Headley in India for a terrorist act on Indian soil in which over 160 persons including police officers lost their lives.
Also, its pathetic how the Indian Government caved in to US pressure and pardoned Headley. What is disturbing is that there was practically no outrage in India over this pardon. The Indian Court further used a false reason to explain its pardon to Headley, namely that this was required to convince Headley to provide evidence. Actually, Headley’s plea agreement with the US DOJ itself explicitly required him to submit himself to the jurisdiction of an Indian Court for his role in the attacks and to provide his true testimony.
How do the US DOJ and FBI justify their role in preventing Headley from being tried in India.
Of course the reason was to prevent Headley from being asked questions which would have exposed the official story pointing towards Pakistan as the main sponsor as false and which might have exposed a CIA/ Mossad role, which even Indian police and intelligence agents have hinted at.
Could someday China drone “terrorists” living in the US who are a threat to Chinese national security?
The whole American exceptionalism thing is backed by an academic discourse that justifies this. Listening to US international law and international relations academics justifying American exceptionalism is an experience. What the rest of the world thinks of this was set out by Putin in the New York Times.
Well, this is rather amusing: two terrorist countries arguing over whether a person who one considers a terrorist will be extradited to the other. Then Glenn points out the U.S. hypocrisy in all this to add further yuks to the situation.
It would be good for the rest of the world if the U.S. and Turkey had a major falling out, but that’s almost certainly not going to happen.
I can’t I say I agree with the article’s premise. The article implies that Turkey MAY feel justified in kidnapping or killing a Turkish dissident because the US conducts extralegal renditions and killings.
I can understand the part about the renditions; some of these were coordinated between the US and the other government. At least one was not (Abu Omar). But US drone strikes in Yemen and Pakistan have been conducted with the approval or grudging approval of the host government; these agreements have been reported on elsewhere. US freedom of action in Somalia is more expansive simply because its government is nowhere near as powerful as the others.
Also, conducting a drone strike in a shithole like Somalia is far more different than invading Afghanistan following the Taliban’s refusal to hand over bin Laden.
Just curious, are the human beings living in the shithole Somalia any less valuable as humans than the humans living in Manhattan?
Look at the costs and benefits. A drone strike gone bad in Manhattan could kill dozens of people, whereas it is very unlikely that leaving a terrorist for Manhattan police to take care of will cause a comparable number of deaths. A drone strike gone bad in Somalia is just as lethal, but leaving that terrorist for a weak or absent state authority will not stop him, and he will go on and kill more people than the drone strike.
Now to be sure, this is not a case of simply comparing the numbers. It is good to save a life, but not as good as it is bad to kill someone. This is the “trolley problem” in philosophy – you don’t just pick people off the street and take them apart for organs, even if you could minimize the number of deaths. Nonetheless, most people believe in *some* circumstances for war, and that applies as much within the US as outside it. It took about 20 minutes in Dallas for some cops to decide to improvise a bomb-delivering robot to kill a terrorist when it was clear that the police were dying trying to stop him. They have a duty to not do such things when they think they can contain the situation by ordinary police work, but once it turns into a war where the ability to stop the killing is no longer certain, the usual rules stop applying.
Your assumption that US law enforcement would never allow a terrorist to carry on unhindered on US soil is false. There is enough evidence out in the public domain including in the context of 9/11 that this happens very often in the US, both deliberately or unwittingly.
Of course not. I will not claim to hold such a position.
I do, however, have an issue with claims that drone strikes violate a country’s sovereignty and are done without the approval of that country’s people. Places like Pakistan and Yemen have functioning governments and those governments have negotiated agreements with the US that allows the US to target terrorist suspects with drone strikes; those countries have also imposed various restrictions on US drone activity in return for allowing US operations.
Somalia, on the other hand, is far more chaotic and the government’s lack of power allows for other groups to fill the void (al-Shabaab, al-Qaeda, Somali pirates, etc.) US vocert action in Somalia, therefore is less sensitive )for example, US covert actions in Somalia require only the approval of the Defense Secretary; the president signs off on actions in Yemen and Pakistan)
The state of Somalia allows the US more flexibility, hence the lowered standards. Also, the US does not target al-Shabaab because it thinks Somalis are “less valuable humans.” It targets the group because it has decided that the group poses a terrorist threat. While the groups so far has only demonstrated an ability to attack targets in East Africa, it has also recruited Americans (most of whom have died in Somalia)
While the group has so far been unable to expand its attacks to the West, apparently the US government is still concerned. I’m not saying anyone has to agree with that,
You say Yemen and Pakistan Governments have allowed the US to carry out drone strikes. You however presume that any such agreements are legitimate. I am not sure. Such agreements would in my opinion violate both International law, human rights law and what ever domestic constitutions and laws are in place in Pakistan and Yemen. Do these agreements expressly allow the US to kill Yemeni or Pakistani citizens? Are these agreements public, can we see them? Just because a weak Government might succumb to US pressure and allow this, does not make it legitimate under international law or domestic laws.
Also what does this say about the nature of the Government in Pakistan? There is a lot of anger (justified) among Pakistanis about these drone strikes.
Yemen does not appear to have a government in control or a legitimate government since 2011. See wikipedia below;
“Yemen has been in a state of political crisis since 2011. In January 2011, a series of street protests began against poverty, unemployment, corruption, and president Saleh’s plan to amend Yemen’s constitution and eliminate the presidential term limit, in effect making him president for life.[24] He was also grooming his eldest son Ahmed Saleh, the commander of the Republican Guard, to succeed him.[24] The United States considers Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula to be the “most dangerous of all the franchises of Al-Qaeda”.[25] The U.S sought a controlled transition that would enable their counter-terrorism operations to continue, while Saudi Arabia’s main concern was to maintain its influence in Yemen through some old regime figures and other tribal leaders who were part of the so-called “GCC initiative”.[26][27] President Saleh stepped down, the transition quickly proceeded per the “GCC Initiative”; the powers of the presidency were transferred to Vice President Abd Rabbu Mansour Hadi, who was formally elected president on 21 February 2012 in a one-man election. The interim parliament conferred immunity on president Saleh and 500 of his associates that same month.[28] A National Dialogue Conference was launched on 18 March 2012 to reach consensus on major issues facing the country’s future.[29][30] In January 2014, the National Dialogue Conference extended Hadi’s term for another year.[31]
The transitional process was disrupted by conflicts between the Houthis and Islah, as well as the al-Qaeda insurgency. In September 2014, the Houthis took over Sana’a,[32][33][34] forcing Ali Mohsen al-Ahmar to flee the country,[35] and prompted the formation of a new “unity government” including a variety of Yemeni factions.[36] A draft constitution was discussed that would split Yemen into six federal regions, but the Houthis rejected the proposal.[37] Hadi, his prime minister, and cabinet resigned on 22 January 2015 amid a political impasse against the Houthis and ongoing violence in the capital.[38] Three weeks later, the Houthis declared themselves in control of the government in what Abdul-Malik al-Houthi called a “glorious revolution”, although opposition politicians, neighbouring states, and the United Nations decried the takeover as a coup d’état.[39] Most of Yemen’s political factions and the international community have refused to recognise the Houthis’ authority, and UN-brokered talks on a power-sharing deal are ongoing.[40][41] However, on 21 February, Hadi rescinded his resignation and declared he was still the legitimate president in Aden.[42] Hadi called on government institutions to gather in Aden,[43][44] which he proclaimed on 21 March 2015 was Yemen’s “economic and temporary capital” while Sana’a remains under Houthi control.[45]”
Coming to Somalia, according to Wikipedia Somali seems to have more of a Government than Yemen does. But even assuming that the Somali Government is weak and exercises little control over Somali territory, your position that this in anyway makes it easier and more justifiable for the US to carry out drone strikes on Somali territory against Somali people is wrong. In fact, in the absence of a proper Government that could protect Somali peoples’ interests, drone strikes in Somalia by foreign super-powers would become more and not less sensitive. In my opinion, the US would need UN security council permission. Instead you say the US views its drone strikes in Somalia as less sensitive than those in Yemen or Pakistan. You say that “US covert actions in Somalia require only the approval of the Defense Secretary; the president signs off on actions in Yemen and Pakistan”. This is not because it is more legitimate for the US to drone in Somalia but because the Somali State is weak. This is the exercise of brute power not law by the US.
Why should drone strikes in Somalia require a lower standard for the US? How do you justify this?
Also just because a group somewhere in the world poses a terrorist threat, the US can drone in another States’s territory. When does the US plan to start droning in India, or in China, or in Turkey or in the UK or in France based on this same reasoning?
So yes. US drone strikes do violate the sovereignty of other States. And they also violate international law and violate the domestic laws of these states.
Just curious, how many States is the US currently droning? How many does it plan to drone?
The civil-war affected Somali people need UN intervention, a UN peace-keeping force while a proper democratic government can be formed. They don’t need drone strikes by the US which only the US Secretary of Defence can order even without the approval of the POTUS. How does this work by the way? The Pentagon can kill Somalis directly even without permission from the POTUS?
I still don’t understand what you meant when you said “Also, conducting a drone strike in a shithole like Somalia is far more different than invading Afghanistan following the Taliban’s refusal to hand over bin Laden.” Did you mean easier for the US, or as you suggest that human morals, values and ethics are less relevant to US drone attacks against Somalis? So in some way the Somalis are lesser human beings? Their deaths matter less? Their deaths will evoke less outrage?
You admit that the US is violating Somali sovereignty by its attacks even though Somalia has never attacked the US.
Also Somalia does have more of a Government than Yemen. I quote from wikipedia on this below.
Also is it your position that if the Government of a State fails, the US can then just unilaterally step in and start killing citizens of that State using drones. Where does international law or even US law allow this?
The Kenyan Government has done more good in Somalia than the US Government.
The wikipedia extract on the Somali government:
” A reconstituted Somali National Army (SNA) and Somali Police Force (SPF) have worked toward expanding their influence. In October 2011, a coordinated operation, Operation Linda Nchi between the Kenyan and Somali military and multinational forces began against the Al-Shabaab group of insurgents in southern Somalia. The intervention was announced by the Kenyan government, initially without the support of Somalia’s Transitional Federal Government, but following talks in Nairobi on 30 October, a joint communiqué was issued saying Somali forces were leading operations.[128][129] By September 2012, Kenyan, Raskamboni, and Somali forces had managed to capture Al-Shabaab’s last major stronghold, the southern port of Kismayo.[130] In July 2012, three European Union operations were also launched to engage with Somalia: EUTM Somalia, EU Naval Force Somalia Operation Atalanta off the Horn of Africa, and EUCAP Nestor.[131]
The Federal Government of Somalia, the first permanent central government in the country since the start of the civil war, was later established in August 2012. By 2014, Somalia was no longer at the top of the fragile states index, dropping to second place behind South Sudan.[132] UN Special Representative to Somalia Nicholas Kay, European Union High Representative Catherine Ashton and other international stakeholders and analysts have also begun to describe Somalia as a “fragile state” that is making some progress towards stability.[133][134][135][136] In August 2014, the Somali government-led Operation Indian Ocean was launched to clean up the remaining insurgent-held pockets in the countryside.[137]”
I don’t know if such “drone agreements” are explicitly illegal if the host government agrees to them. In Pakistan’s case, the strikes have been limited to the tribal areas. What international law exactly, would such a strike be in violation of? And yes, there is anger towards the strikes, but this sentiment is not universal; many polls have produced support for the strikes even in the FATA.
You argue that carrying out, because of the strikes in Pakistan, Yemen and Somalia, there is a POSSIBILITY that the US will expand them to more stable, developed countries. I find this extremely unlikely. If the US received intelligence that terrorist were plotting attacks in India, China, Turkey, the UK, or France, it it is possible that the US will conduct strikes there.
In reality, these are developed, First-World countries with which the US enjoys better relations, meaning the US could simply pass the intelligence along to that nation’s authorities. Pakistan, Yemen and Somalia are Third World countries where the US does not always enjoy mutual trust, and where the host government does not enjoy stability.
And in my own opinion, if terrorists are operating in lawless badlands like the Pakistani FATA or Somalia, and the host governments of those countries agree to allow the US to conduct operations there, then how illegitimate are these drone strikes anyway? According to them, the US is doing them a favor.
Also, while the targets may or may not be citizens of the host country, they are also waging war against their government; no doubt this makes these sorts of drone agreements more palatable. Also, international law is actually pretty fuzzy when it comes to issues like this.
And no, the US cannot violate international sovereignty as they please. But the host government have, to various degrees, allowed the US to, in essence, do so.
Also, there are already international troops in Somalia, and how is their intervention any more or less legitimate than US drone strikes?
Even your facts and assumptions are all wrong. In June 2016, Pakistan told the UN that US drone strikes were violating its sovereignty.
Read below from http://www.business-standard.com/article/news-ani/u-s-drone-strike-in-pak-disrupts-afghan-peace-process-envoy-lodhi-116062200408_1.html:
“U.S. drone strike in Pak. disrupts Afghan peace process: Envoy Lodhi
Describing the recent U.S. drone strike on its territory as a blatant breach of the United Nations Charter and international law, Pakistan has claimed that these strikes have disrupted the Afghan peace process and further complicated the political and socio-economic situation in the region.
Pakistan’s permanent Ambassador at the UN, Maleeha Lodhi informed the UN Security Council that United States drone attack that killed Taliban leader Mullah Akhtar Mohammad Mansour on the Pakistani territory was a violation of Pakistan’s sovereignty and territorial integrity.
“US drone attack on Pakistani territory was violation of sovereignty, territorial integrity,” Radio Pakistan quoted her as saying.
Taking part in a debate on Afghanistan situation, she said the drone strike has raised serious questions about whether the international community was ready to invest in war instead of peace in Kabul.
Lodhi pointed out that the use of force over the last 15 years had not led to peace.”
Also ” Pakistan raises drone-strike issue at UNSC
Apart from calling it a blow to the Afghan peace process, the Pakistani ambassador said that the strikes are a direct attack on Pakistan’s sovereignty.” at http://indianexpress.com/article/world/world-news/pakistan-raises-drone-strike-issue-at-unsc-2869402/
Also “US DRONE STRIKE IN BALOCHISTAN IS BLATANT BREACH OF UN CHARTER AND INTERNATIONAL LAW: MALEEHA LOHDI” at http://www.radio.gov.pk/22-Jun-2016/us-drone-strike-in-balochistan-is-blatant-breach-of-un-charter-and-international-law-maleeha-lohdi
And “Pakistan condemns US drone strike in UN Security Council
” at http://dunyanews.tv/en/Pakistan/342220-Pakistan-condemns-US-drone-strike-in-UN-Security-C
The central assumption here, of course, is that Pakistan’s protests are actually genuine.
According to the NYT, the first victim of a US drone strike in Pakistan was Nek Mohammed Wazir. Mohammed was not al-Qaeda, but a Taliban affiliate who was, at the time, leading an insurgency against the Pakistani government. At first, the Pakistanis balked at allowing US drone to operate in the FATA, but eventually came around to allowing such operations in return for a US strike on Wazir (carried out in 2004) The Pakistanis also restricted US operations to the tribal areas and forbade overflights of Pakistani bases and nuclear facilities, and greed to take credit for the strikes or simply remain silent. The reporting on this agreement began in 2010 from WikiLeaks and May 2013 by the NYT. Many polls have also recorded Pakistani support for the drone strikes, even in the FATA (see Aqil Shah’s WP reporting, and The Atlantic’s reporting on the Pew polls) Pakistanis are not united in opposition to the program.
Now to the legal question. Armed drones may be novel, but what NEW legal or ethical issues do they introduce, exactly? The Western world relies on the simple and realistic “just war” tradition: military force has to be carried out by a competent sovereign authority and it has to be proportional. These rules apply REGARDLESS of the specific weaponry employed. While armed drones are a modern phenomenon, there is nothing novel or unusual about a drone strike’s DESTRUCTIVE POTENTIAL.
The US can employ any weapon as long as it has the proper legal authority, its targets are legitimate enemy combatants (targets, not unintended victims) and comply with the commanders’ rules of engagement. All of these standards are met by armed UAVs. The only legal authority the president needs to employ drones is Congress’s AUMF, and the US has plenty or rules and guidelines to regulate this activity.
Also, would Pakistan, Yemen or Somalia be in violation of international law by allowing an ally to deploy lethal force against a mutual enemy? No. Does war require targeting the enemy with lethal force, even when civilians who are NOT THE INTENDED TARGETS are at risk? Yes. The fact that an individual is being targeted by the strike does not change the issue from a purely military to a purely judicial one.
Ignoring the question of whether groups like al-Qaeda or al-Shabaab are in accordance with the laws and customs of war, their failure to carry distinctive insignia is a violation; the rules of war do not apply to them. To the extent that jihadists wear no insignia, they are responsible under international law when civilians are killed because of uncertainty as to who is a combatant and who is not. The onus of identifying the target rests with the US; if there is error, the responsibility for that error rests with the targeted terrorists.
Declarations of war have not been in fashion since World War II, for better or for worse. But the jihadists’s strategy, dispersion, and use of lawless safe havens has complicated this problem substantially. If a country knowingly harbors such terrorists (i.e. Afghanistan under the Taliban before 9/11) it is an enemy. If it is incapable of destroying them, it arguably forfeits sovereignty since sovereignty also requires the prevention of attacks by terrorists and lawless non-state actors.
It is not illegitimate to target individuals in a military force (i.e. jihadists) and, according to international law, responsibility for civilian casualties is more on them than on the US.Moreover, respecting national sovereignty requires that a country’s sovereignty be used to halt attacks against countries with which they are not at war. When a country cannot or will not take those steps, and people within their border pose a threat to the United States, the country has no basis for objecting to intelligence operations and airstrikes. The question, of course, is where this ends. As a sovereign and independent nation, the US may determine for itself whether it is at war with a transnational terrorist organization, and international law does not limit armed conflict to nation-states only. Nor does the UN place geographical limitations on the right of self-defense.
The international community has long raised the possibility of a drone strike outside the conventional battlefield to be a war crime. This allegation has never been proven. So, yes, these sorts of strikes can be legally and morally justifiable, given the nature of the conflict, the right to self-defense, and the procedures in place to minimize civilian casualties.
The First paragraph of your reply reproduced below:
“According to the NYT, the first victim of a US drone strike in Pakistan was Nek Mohammed Wazir. Mohammed was not al-Qaeda, but a Taliban affiliate who was, at the time, leading an insurgency against the Pakistani government. At first, the Pakistanis balked at allowing US drone to operate in the FATA, but eventually came around to allowing such operations in return for a US strike on Wazir (carried out in 2004) The Pakistanis also restricted US operations to the tribal areas and forbade overflights of Pakistani bases and nuclear facilities, and greed to take credit for the strikes or simply remain silent. The reporting on this agreement began in 2010 from WikiLeaks and May 2013 by the NYT. Many polls have also recorded Pakistani support for the drone strikes, even in the FATA (see Aqil Shah’s WP reporting, and The Atlantic’s reporting on the Pew polls) Pakistanis are not united in opposition to the program.”
You mention NYT, Wikileaks, Aqil Shah reports and the Atlantic reports, and Pew polls. If you are making a point based upon these as sources, you must supply the links. Otherwise whatever you state is simply your version of the facts which you keep improving upon, and which version is completely belied by what I have linked to.
Once we have your sources, I can respond.
But the fact that Pakistan authorities have at least since 2012 openly accused the US of violating its territorial integrity and sovereignty at the highest levels of its Government and military is a fact. So in international law, there is no agreement by the Pakistani Government allowing US drone strikes.
Well, many international lawyers are of the opinion that the US has broken every international law of war and armed conflict.
Now to respond to your statements specifically.
You state: “The international community has long raised the possibility of a drone strike outside the conventional battlefield to be a war crime.This allegation has never been proven. ”
Well the only way to prove this “allegation” would be to have an international court decide this issue. Maybe the US as a responsible State should ask the International Criminal Court to decide this legal issue.
“A US air strike killed nearly 60 civilians, including children, in Syria on Tuesday after the coalition mistook them for Islamic State (Isil) fighters.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/19/us-air-strike-in-syria-kills-up-to-85-civilians-mistaken-for-isi/
Meaning what, exactly?
meaning exactly what it means.
“Drone strikes violate international law. Under international humanitarian law, the targeted individual must be directly participating in hostilities with the United States. [57] Under international human rights law, the targeted individual must pose an imminent threat that only lethal force can prevent. [57] Simply being suspected of some connection to a “militant” organization — or, under the CIA’s policy of “signature” drone strikes, fitting the profile of a terrorist in an area where terrorists are known to operate – is not legally sufficient to make someone a permissible target for killing. [63] Article 6(1) of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, a multilateral treaty adopted by the United Nations, states that “no one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his life,” even in times of armed conflict. [61] Article 2(4) of the UN Charter prohibits the threat or use of force by one state against another, [64] with the exceptions of (1) the consent of the host state, [65] and (2) when the use of force is in self-defense in response to an armed attack or an imminent threat, where the host state is unwilling or unable to take appropriate action. [25] Members of militant groups with which the United States is not in an armed conflict are therefore not lawful targets. [62] Amnesty International says drone strikes can be classified as “war crimes” or illegal “extrajudicial executions.” [66]”
From http://drones.procon.org/ You can look up the cited references.
“Drone strikes violate the sovereignty of other countries. Strikes are often carried out without the permission and against the objection of the target countries. Pakistan’s foreign ministry on June 4, 2012 called drone strikes “illegal” and said they violated the country’s sovereignty. [70] On Oct. 22, 2013, Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif said that the “use of drones is not only a continued violation of our territorial integrity but also detrimental to our resolve at efforts in eliminating terrorism from our country… I would therefore stress the need for an end to drone attacks.” [71] The United Nations’ Human Rights Chief, [72] Special Rapporteur on counter-terrorism and human rights, [73] and Special Rapporteur on extrajudicial, summary, or arbitrary executions [74] have all called US drone strikes a violation of sovereignty, and have pressed for investigations into the legality of the attacks. In a July 18, 2013, 39-country survey by Pew Research, only six countries approved of US drone strikes in Pakistan, Yemen, and Somalia. [2]”
from http://drones.procon.org/
Pakistan’s protests are disingenuous, as I have explained.
well, you can say black is white and we must believe you. why?
Actually you have not explained. You have merely stated what you appear to believe without providing any evidence. And what you appear to believe flies in the face of actual Pakistani Government written and oral statements to the UN and elsewhere.
Huh? My evidence is illegitimate just because I stated what it was but didn’t provide a link to them? OK, then.
Once again, the US did not believe it could carry out these strikes without the host government’s permission. Towards that end, it made a deal with the Pakistanis involving the killing of Nek Muhammed Wazir. It made a deal with Yemeni president Saleh to target al-Qaeda as long as the strikes could be kept secret (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle-east/yemeni-official-us-drone-strike-kills-2-al-qaeda-operatives/2011/05/05/AF7HrzxF_story.html)
Mazzetti’s reporting on the drone war is fairly extensive, and he has written an entire book about it anyway: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/07/world/asia/origins-of-cias-not-so-secret-drone-war-in-pakistan.html
Also, see Gregory Johnsen’s book “The Last Refuge.”
Otherwise, feel free to do your own research, rather than claim my sources are illegitimate because I “must” provide the links.
The UN Special Rapporteur on extrajudicial, summary, or arbitrary executions has said that Article 51 applies if the targeted state agrees to the use of force in its territory, or the targeted group operating within its territory was responsible for an act of aggression against the targeting state where the host state is unwilling or unable to control the threat themselves.
Another point. Pakistan’s protests (disingenuous or not) can also be linked to the pace of the strikes. The strikes after 2004 were relatively few in number, and it took until 2008 for the tempo and intensity of the strikes to increase; hence the INCREASED opposition to the strikes. 2008 was also the point at which the controversial “signature” strikes were introduced. In any case, the strikes have always been limited to the semi-autonomous FATA. And doesn’t Pakistan have its own air force? If these drones are so illegal and hostile, why doesn’t Pakistan confront them directly?
So, no these drone strikes do not violate international sovereignty. The Pakistanis have claimed this to the UN, and the UN has repeated it. But, again, the Pakistanis already agreed to make such complaints as part of the deal with the US. These complaints might even be genuine NOW, but how are we supposed to prove that, exactly, given the deals struck in the past?
Drone strikes do not “violate” international law, but they do challenge traditional legal understanding. They do attack the MEANING of certain core legal legal concepts (self-defense, imminence, proportionality, combatant, civilian, armed conflict, hostilities, etc.) Like all law, the laws of war can be vague and ambiguous. Drone strikes do not “break” the law; the law itself is vague and ambiguous on many of the questions surrounding the use of drone strikes outside a conventional battlefield. The US is not entirely wrong to apply unconventional concepts like “imminence” to today’s unconventional threats.
US legal theories are destabilizing and unconventional, but are they really illegitimate? Maybe the world needs to develop new legal theories to govern these kinds of conflicts. Also, are the alternatives any better?
Actually you have provided NO evidence at all that the sovereign Governments of either Yemen or Pakistan have ever authorized the US to conduct drone strikes on their territories.
For Yemen, you link to this article https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle-east/yemeni-official-us-drone-strike-kills-2-al-qaeda-operatives/2011/05/05/AF7HrzxF_story.html
Well I read it carefully, and no where does this article suggest, report or even hint at such an agreement between the US and the Yemen Governments.
Do you have any other evidence?
Lol, wrong.
Wrong, again.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/yemeni-president-acknowledges-approving-us-drone-strikes/2012/09/29/09bec2ae-0a56-11e2-afff-d6c7f20a83bf_story.html
You like to play games whereas I talk straight.
Your earlier link https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle-east/yemeni-official-us-drone-strike-kills-2-al-qaeda-operatives/2011/05/05/AF7HrzxF_story.html did not even hint at any agreement between the Yemen State and the US Government allowing US drone strikes in Yemen.
You now link to a different article https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/yemeni-president-acknowledges-approving-us-drone-strikes/2012/09/29/09bec2ae-0a56-11e2-afff-d6c7f20a83bf_story.html
So this article reports that Abed Rabbo Mansour Hadi told Washington Post on a visit to the US that “he personally approves every U.S. drone strike in his country”. These are words of Greg Miller, the author, and is not a direct quote from Hadi.
Actually when you read the article carefully, you will find that Greg Miller has cleverly misreported what Hadi actually said.
So what did Hadi say. He said
1. “He also described a joint operations facility near Sanaa, the capital, that serves as an intelligence nerve center for operations against AQAP, as the terrorist group’s Yemeni affiliate is known. “You go to the operations center and see operations taking place step by step,” Hadi said.” Miller clarifies “President Abed Rabbo Mansour Hadi also provided new details about the monitoring of counterterrorism missions from a joint operations center in Yemen that he said is staffed by military and intelligence personnel from the United States, Saudi Arabia and Oman.”
2. Miller then writes: ““Every operation, before taking place, they take permission from the president,” Hadi said in an interview with reporters and editors from The Washington Post in his hotel suite in the District. Praising the accuracy of the remotely operated aircraft, he added, “The drone technologically is more advanced than the human brain.””
In the last paragraph Miller writes: “U.S. Special Operations drones patrol Yemen from a base in Djibouti, on the Horn of Africa. The CIA aircraft are flown from a separate facility on the Arabian Peninsula whose location has not been publicly disclosed.”
So now lets be exact about what Hadi said. Hadi referred to the joint operations facility in Yemen and sad that every operation launched from there had permission from the President. One might ask which president was he alluding to. Himself or the US President?
Drone strikes are not launched from this joint operations facility. Instead they are launched from a base in Djibouti and from a separate unidentified facility on the Arabian Peninsula.
So note that if you read the article carefully, Hadi did not say that he gave prior permission for every drone strike. Instead Greg Miller misrepresented what Hadi actually said.
Apart from this, can we ask how much legitimate authority and support Hadi enjoys in Yemen? Could he possibly be called a US and Saudi stooge installed as a puppet? Would his election as a sole candidate be considered legitimate and democratic?
Tricky questions all?
Also note that even a de-facto ruler of a country has certain responsibilities and obligations under international law and his powers are limited ultimately by human rights laws, internal law etc.
So just because Hadi might endorse an illegal act against his people by a foreign power, this would not make the illegal act legal.
As I said, actually you have provided NO evidence at all that the sovereign Governments of either Yemen or Pakistan have ever authorized the US to conduct drone strikes on their territories.
Coming to Pakistan, you have repeatedly claimed that the US is carrying out drone strikes in Pakistan with the approval of and on the request of the Pakistani Government.
I did my research and linked to authoritative sources that establish that the Pakistani State has repeatedly complained to anyone who will listen including to China, to the UN, to its other middle-eastern allies and even to the US that the US is violating its territorial integrity and its sovereignty, the UN Charter and other international law by carrying out drone strikes in Pakistan.
You then responded by again saying that Pakistan had agreed to US drone strikes and that the Pakistani complaints were ingenuous. To support this stand, you vaguely alluded to reports of such an agreement in the NYT, The Atlantic, Wikileaks, Aquil Shah reports etc. Yet you did not provide any links to these vague sources. Do these sources eve exist?
When I asked you to provide links to your sources, you attempted to twist the conversation by saying that I was challenging your sources as illegitimate whereas I am concerned that your sources do not even exist.
So now for Pakistan, you link to one NYT article by Mark Manzetti. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/07/world/asia/origins-of-cias-not-so-secret-drone-war-in-pakistan.html
So lets look at what this article states. This article reports a secret deal between the CIA and the ISI and states:
“As the battles raged in South Waziristan, the station chief in Islamabad paid a visit to Gen. Ehsan ul Haq, the ISI chief, and made an offer: If the C.I.A. killed Mr. Muhammad, would the ISI allow regular armed drone flights over the tribal areas?
In secret negotiations, the terms of the bargain were set. Pakistani intelligence officials insisted that they be allowed to approve each drone strike, giving them tight control over the list of targets. And they insisted that drones fly only in narrow parts of the tribal areas — ensuring that they would not venture where Islamabad did not want the Americans going: Pakistan’s nuclear facilities, and the mountain camps where Kashmiri militants were trained for attacks in India.
The ISI and the C.I.A. agreed that all drone flights in Pakistan would operate under the C.I.A.’s covert action authority — meaning that the United States would never acknowledge the missile strikes and that Pakistan would either take credit for the individual killings or remain silent.”
Some questions – The ISI has no sovereign authority to make a deal for CIA drone strikes on Pakistani territory. Is this agreement on paper? Who has signed this agreement on behalf of the sovereign Government of Pakistan? Does the CIA have authority under US law to sign such an agreement on behalf of the sovereign Government of the United States? Can such an agreement ever be oral and have validity under international law.
How do we know that Mark Manzetti did not just make up this story under directions from the CIA?
And in the face of official, authorized and written Pakistani State assertions that the US drone strikes are illegitimate and violate Pakistani sovereignty, I am afraid that at least under the law, your statements and Manzetti’s account of secret deals will not stand up to scrutiny and cannot be believed.
The Wikipedia entry on Mark Manzetti is not very flattering and suggests that he parrots the US Pentagon establishment line. He was an embedded reporter in the Iraq war. This is what wikipedia says about him.
“A 2007 article by Joseph Palermo said that Mazzetti and David Sanger were insufficiently skeptical of anonymous government and military sources in an article[5] they co-wrote in the October 14, 2007, issue of the New York Times.[6] In May 2011, Charles Kaiser asserted that Mazzetti’s “coverage of American torture will forever live in infamy,” citing a story written by Mazzetti in collaboration with Helene Cooper and Peter Baker “which credulously adopted the line of former Bush administration officials (as Mazzetti has done dozens of times before) who were desperately trying to convince the world that torture was the main reason that Bin Laden had been located.”[7]
The Puntland Government (Somalia) criticized a piece by Mazzetti and Eric Schmitt that portrayed the Puntland Maritime Police Force (PMPF) as a “private army” that was “abandoned” by its major donors.[8] The article exposed how mercenaries hired by Erik Prince, the former head of Blackwater, training Somalis to combat piracy by the abandoned the program. Puntland officials clarified that the PMPF still is “part and parcel of Puntland Government’s security forces” and that they still receive the financial support from their backers. They also criticized the authors for not acknowledging any of the PMPF’s success and for neglecting to contact any Puntland Government officials to comment on the story.[9]
In 2011, he furnished the pre-publication text of an opinion column written by Maureen Dowd concerning the making of the movie “Zero Dark Thirty” to CIA spokesperson Marie Harf for review with the comments “see, nothing to worry about,” “this didn’t come from me… and please delete after you read.” Dowd had reportedly asked Mazzetti to fact-check a detail in the column for her. Times managing editor Dean Baquet dismissed the incident as “much ado about nothing,” but the Times’ public editor expressed strong disapproval of Mazzetti’s actions.[10]”
And here’s Glenn Greenwald exposing NYT’s Mark Manzetti’s close ties to the CIA https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/aug/29/correspondence-collusion-new-york-times-cia
I, of course, agree with the real point of the argument that remote control killing does not comport with the rule of law.
Alex de Toqueville coined the phrase “American Exceptionalism”. He was talking about how the United States, was in effect, the first working democracy. It has nothing to do with the current state of affairs.
244 comments and yet neither the article nor any of the comments seem to even acknowledge that Gulen is a CIA asset, his movement and school a recruiting ground for jihadists. What’s up with that? How can people not know this?
That is 226.
Easy: we haven’t seen credible evidence. It could be true, of course, so, if you have some of that credible evidence, post it.
I’m sure it is probably true but that is irrelevant to the point of the article which is that any such extra-legal murders and kidnaps are, of course, contrary to the rule of law.
This is an article that every American should read. It is not proper for one nation to claim the entire globe as its sphere of influence. The US should concentrate on building stronger bonds of trust with Latin America.
The US has given $78 billion in aid to Pakistan. This purchases the behind-the-scenes compliance of government officials to US military strikes in Pakistan.
If Turkey were to earmark $78 billion to US politicians, there is little doubt it could purchase the cooperation of the US government. For that kind of money, the US would probably declare Gulen a terrorist and take him out themselves. At the very least, they would turn a blind eye while Turkish operatives did the job. However, this won’t happen, not because the US is so exceptional, but because Turkey won’t put up the required cash.
The Turks can cry all they like, but the world is a cruel place. If they want the cooperation of American officials, they must put up or shut up.
Pakistan for just $78 billion since 1948 for drone killing rights PLUS Afghanistan invasion launch pad PLUS balancing USSR-friendly India’s nukes — what a bargain! Did you know that if you put just $500 million down today and make a monthly payment of $5 million, you too could have $78 billion after 68 years (compounded annually at 6%)!! http://www.thecalculatorsite.com/finance/calculators/compoundinterestcalculator.php
And now you’re offering USA-wide drone killing rights to Turkey for the same price too! Wow. $78 billion would be enough to pay off Puerto Rico’s debt — or cover Fedgov spending for 8 whole days!!
But, seriously, how come this money-for-killing-rights is a main stream secret? Would Americans get upset if they were told the truth? Politicians would be run out of town? Maybe that’s Greenwald’s point. He’s putting government spokesmen in a polemical corner. They can’t justify drone killing unless they come clean and say, like you, “Money buys any killing rights you want, got that kids?” Ouch. Or they say “America has exceptional drone killing rights. No more questions.” Also ouch. Let the squirming proceed!
Just stopping by to say hello to a gold Intercept commenter.
As usual, you hit the nail on the head. The worthless Federal Reserve notes(petro-dollars) drive the US politicians, the Federal government, and other money or real asset grabbing interested corporate parties.
And that fact; is the source of world problems(endless wars and spiritual dilemmas of poverty) in a nutshell. Not only in the US but also in every country state which has surrendered sovereign citizen entities to the vile wills of greedy central bankers at all levels up to their clearing house at the Bank of International Settlements. As you said, the world is a cruel place; but it doesn’t have to be.
Til next year, I wish you well Mr. Mussolini.
So cynical, Benito! ha ha ha!
The main difference between Erdogan and the faking U$A
is that Erdogan doesn’t have the ability or desire
to pretend that he is something other than what he is.
The superiority of the faking U$A is based upon and inherent in
its ability to be in two places at once.
Simultaneously seeking democracy and slaughtering democracy
is clearly the hallmark of a great integrity, but,
Erdogan’s Turkey doesn’t have the “christian” patina which
is essential to being seen as “civilized.”
In short, as awful as he is, Erdogan just isn’t hypocritical enough
to allow him to have the same rights.
South Park once did a show where Cartman traveled back in time to America’s founding in Philadelphia and discovered it was really all about having your cake and eating it too, i.e. hypocrisy.
“This country was founded by some of the smartest thinkers the world has ever seen, and they knew one thing: that a truly great country could go to war and at the same time – act like it doesn’t want to. You people who are for the war: you need the protesters, because they make the country look like it’s full of sane, caring individuals. And you people who are anti-war, you need these flag-wavers, because if our whole country was made up of soft pussy protesters, we’d get taken down in a second. That’s why the founding fathers decided we should have both. It’s called having your cake and eating it too.” ~ Cartman, from episode “I’m a Little Bit Country”
http://southpark.wikia.com/wiki/I%27m_a_Little_Bit_Country
Great premise. Yet, US anti-war protests did have an impact on the President and the course of the VietNam war… Then again, Cartman is a wise… character. I protest the arrogance and imperialism of the US, a fading country yet quite murderous, at home and abroad.
The US is supreme world dominator, so of course we have an absolute right to kill or capture any person on Earth for any reason at any time. Turkey can capture or kill Gulen, but they would have to weigh what consequences the wrath of the USA might entail. We could for instance, kill Erdogan – and we should.
Mr. Greenwald
“……..If Fethullah Gulen is considered a threat to Erdogan & Turkey’s gov’t doesn’t Turkey have a right to drone strike him in Pennsylvania?……”
To try to make the case that Gulen residing in the US is the same situation as Bin Laden training terrorists in Afghanistan under the auspices of the Taliban is completely absurd. Gulen is a moderate Imam who has disagreements with the current leadership of Turkey (free speech anyone?) while Bin Laden is a mass murderer responsible for numerous terrorist attacks world-wide including 911. Laden declared war on the US in 1998. This has nothing to do with American exceptionalisml – and the US had every right to invade and oust the Taliban from power for not turning over the mass murderer. Who did Gulen murder?.
According to Wikipedia:
“……..His understanding of Islam tends to be moderate and mainstream.[52][53] Though he has never been a member of a Sufi tarekat and does not see tarekat membership as a necessity for Muslims, he teaches that “Sufism is the inner dimension of Islam” and “the inner and outer dimensions must never be separated…….Gülen has reportedly stated: “Studying physics, mathematics, and chemistry is worshipping God.”[43] Gülen’s followers have built over 1,000 schools around the world.[59] In Turkey, Gülen’s schools are considered among the best: expensive modern facilities and English language is taught from the first grade…..Contrary to claims by some scholars[who?], Gülen has positive views towards Jews, and Christians, and condemns anti-semitism. During the 1990s, he began to advocate interreligious tolerance and dialogue.[14] He has personally met with leaders of other religions, including Pope John Paul II,[13] the Greek Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomeos, and Israeli Sephardic Head Rabbi Eliyahu Bakshi-Doron……Gülen has criticized secularism in Turkey as “reductionist materialism”. However, he has in the past said that a secular approach that is “not anti-religious” and “allows for freedom of religion and belief, is compatible with Islam……Gülen has condemned terrorism.[68] He warns against the phenomenon of arbitrary violence and aggression against civilians and said that it “has no place in Islam”…….Gülen criticized the Turkish-led Gaza flotilla for trying to deliver aid without Israel’s consent……..He said, “What I saw was not pretty, it was ugly…….saying later that the organizers’ failure to seek accord with Israel before attempting to deliver aid was “a sign of defying authority, and will not lead to fruitful matters…..”
He disagrees with Erdogan ursuping more and more power which led to a split with Erdogan’s AKP ruling party:
“……In emailed comments to the Wall Street Journal in January 2014, Gülen said that “Turkish people … are upset that in the last two years democratic progress is now being reversed”, but he denied being part of a plot to unseat the government.[49] Later, in January 2014 in an interview with BBC World, Gülen said “If I were to say anything to people I may say people should vote for those who are respectful to democracy, rule of law, who get on well with people. Telling or encouraging people to vote for a party would be an insult to peoples’ intellect. Everybody very clearly sees what is going on…..”
He is hardly comparable to Bin Laden (In fact, it is completely fucking idiotic). He has only (as far as I know), criticized the thin-skinned Erdogan government which falls under free speech.
What happened to free speech, Mr. Greenwald?
Craigsummers you seem to have missed the principle. Your moral equivalence arguments are old and tiring. The hypocrite is someone who applies standards to others that they fail to apply to themselves.
I understand the moral equivalent argument of the article. Unfortunately, there isn’t any.
Thanks.
There’s that ol’ plankeye behavior everyone here adores!
Thanks.
You’re presumptuous arseness ass-umes that Osama Bin-Laden was the actual person and master planner and yet you fail to simultaneously account for the surrounding facts about the 200+ israelis gathering intel on the landscape.
This is compatible with your denial of the attack on the USS LIBERTY 8 JUNE 1967 as well as your denial of the BSD on Germany 24 March 1933.
Given your reluctance to tell the truth, the whole truth, so help you God in the name of Jesus Christ the Savior, it is reasonable to see that the planning and groundwork were laid out by interested parties in israel who support Hillary Clinton as their front man for global domination by corporat predators.
tick tock.
I think you have thoroughly proved yourself the unhinged one here.
I don’t even pay any attention to him.
Like anyone pays attention to yours.sheesh.(or mine,but I don’t give a f*ck,you do hasbarist.)
Mr. craigsummers;
You have failed to produce a copy of the permits for the demolition of building 7. You have failed to name the demolition company. You have failed to substantiate the authors dates payors and witnesses of what appears to be a phony report on the matter.
So says a hillaryous voter for Zion.
Of course the zionist MSM is full on for the Hell bitch.That’s why she’s going to lose,btw.
Never mind that bin Laden was on the CIA payroll…just like Saddam Hussein…just like….
http://www.progressivepress.net/the-tale-of-uncle-tsarnaev-cia-chief-graham-fuller-and-a-turkish-islamist-who-lives-in-usa/
…and ‘suddenly’ Craigsummers is pro Islam. That should say plenty.
“……and ‘suddenly’ Craigsummers is pro Islam. That should say plenty……”
First of all, I am not nor have I ever been anti-Islam. I am anti radical Islam. Second of all, you still have shown nothing which raises the criminality of Gulen to that of Bin Laden. It’s like comparing a J-walker to a murderer. It’s ridiculous. Finally, radical Islamists came to Afghanistan to oust the USSR from Afghanistan. What could possibly be a better cause than ousting the evil empire?
Thanks.
I agree with this in general. The catch is that the US doesn’t always have as clear a case as it did against Osama bin Laden, and has at times conducted strikes that appear contrary to freedom of expression. War is indeed an ugly business, and however inappropriate Greenwald’s comparison of “rule of law” between Pennsylvania and Taliban Afghanistan or ungoverned tribal areas of Pakistan may be, if the war did come to the US it would also be unjust here.
Thanks for the reasonable response. The US is clearly hypocritical in some of their policies. No one can deny that. I just don’t agree that the wars in Afghanistan and Pakistan are unjust.
clear case? sure if you take all the official statements as fact. Perhaps OBL was a obvious a culprit as LHO. And notice also how OJ was set up. Frame jobs are actually quite easy when you have the resources. But that’s not to imply there was never a very sofisticated frame-up. Did not wallstreet set a trap for the housing crisis fraud? Did not others take the blame for falling in that trap? plz think more about this in your spare time. tyvm.
Craiggy, Craiggy, Craiggy. Why wasn’t the crime of 911 included on Osama Bin Ladin’s FBI most wanted poster? Because the FBI had NO evidence linking Bin Ladin to that crime.
And since the redacted 28 pages have come out, an invasion(still a crime in itself) of Saudi Arabia would have been more appropriate than violating Afghanistan.
But don’t stop apologizing for the 1% that rule your world.
“……But don’t stop apologizing for the 1% that rule your world……”
In what world do you reside?
“……Why wasn’t the crime of 911 included on Osama Bin Ladin’s FBI most wanted poster? Because the FBI had NO evidence linking Bin Ladin to that crime…….”
Then it was just a great guess by the FBI since Bin Laden admitted he was behind 911.
In what world do you reside?
that would be the 99.
if you dont stop feigning stupidity, what are we to conclude?
ubl admitted to being behind 911.
Aljazeera has the actual interview of him being asked about that and he flat out denied it. Then there is the american version that is merely a supposed transcript. Between seeing and hearing what someone says and reading a third party interpretation…
As good as this article is the title really says it all.
As we past an era on kingdoms and religious persecution, I would hope for an era of un-empirizations to come.
At one time we understood slavery wasn’t good for business. What do we need empires for? They have always been based on abuse and rhetorical b#llsh!t. I am amazed how some people say that USG had gained “permission” to drone attack people in other countries …
What does it mean for the U.S. to have gained “permission” … ?
About the “its apex militarily” thing, are you really stronger, safer; if you fill your whole basement with TNT? This is basically the U.S.’s strength. Also, now that that “international court” ruled China’s actions in the South China Sea illegal, why doesn’t the U.S., NATO go after them?
Even with people USG can play their bullying performance, all that power seems to be becoming meaningless as well, if a single “disconnected” individual can cause so much trouble.
Gringos tend to underestimate the long lasting effects and ramifications of their actions, because they seem to have their heads in their own rear ends and haven’t had a change to breathe fresh air for a long while to the point that they seem to have lost their olfactory senses.
RCL
Gringos tend to underestimate the long lasting effects and ramifications of their actions, because they seem to have their heads in their own rear ends and haven’t had a change to breathe fresh air for a long while to the point that they seem to have lost their olfactory senses.
gringos?
Very powerful points and argument. I wished it was published in a wider journal or newspaper such as NYT. But of course they would not publicize this writing.
They’re not called presstitutes or American Pravda for nothing.
“Might makes right” This maxim is as old as the hills, and as wrong as it is old. While the U.S. rationalizes and justifies its extreme, world-wide militancy as needed to protect its superior ideals and way of life, it’s the overwhelming and limitless fire power provided by the bottomless pit of taxpayer dollars bestowed upon the military that allows the old adage to rule.
HELL NO Turkey/Erdogan would not be justified in striking within the US!!!!!!!
But of course the question is asked to show American hypocrisy, as we have done this thousands of times over already.
I think Erdogan planned the whole thing. He took out the Kemalists first and then took out the Gulenists. Erdogan learned a thing or two from the Arab Springs.
1. The military is a always a threat if you want to be an omnipotent president. 2. Take out the leadership faces of the opposition.
3. Mobilize your civilian loyalist forces before the opposition does.
Staging a coup does all these things. First, infiltrate the Gulenist supporters. Second, suggest a coup within the military. Third, let it leak out that you intend on rounding up all Gulenists within the military and cleaning house on July 16th and force them into a hasty coup. Fourth, after the coup is launched, mobilize your own loyalists and make them look like the oppressors. Fifth, weed out all of the supporters, both military and civilian, and then isolate them. Sixth, blame the head of the opposition for planning the coup.
Gulen was taking Turkey over with schools, the media, and charity organizations. In short, he was playing the long game. Why would he commit to a hasty coup and destroy everything he is in the process of building? What did he have to gain and what did Erdogan have to gain? Nothing and everything, respectively.
“I think Erdogan planned the whole thing.”
Maybe you’re right. But I can’t understand how he got help from MSNBC to make it look real. At the tipping point of the coup, MSNBC cited an anonymous US military source that made it seem Erdogan was truly on the run and the coup was a done deal.
https://www.stratfor.com/situation-report/turkey-president-reportedly-seeking-asylum-germany?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=article
Why would MSNBC want to help Erdogan pull off a staged coup?
yet another recruiting tool for ISIS.
Maybe in another couple thousand years things might be different.
Notice to future residents of planet earth: Do not tell the robots why we prefer them over humans.
Exactly.
The US is the King. The King does what the King wants and answers to no one, until there is a new King. Where is the new King?
That’s what I thought. Sit down and shut up.
That’s this exact mentality that is fueling the war on terror and perpetuating the vicious circle. Anyone with half a brain would know this by know, at least that’s what I thought before I saw your pathetic argument
By the way it’s really frightening to see you excuse the US kidnapping and torturing innocent citizens of countries allied with the US in impunity, far from any kind of accountability. Truly frightening indeed. I’m sorry to admit this but there are days when I can’t wait for your country to crumble, precisely because your mentality is so widespread, especially in the political spheres
Based on history, when an “empire” is at the height of its political and military power, yet its civilization has entered into a rapid decline, is the time that a new “empire” takes over.
The U.S. is now more uncivilized than ever and its rapid decline is becoming faster by the month, yet it is still at its apex militarily and politically. I would give it between 2 and 20 years before the new power has arisen and the U.S. loses much of its influence and ability to wage war.
In many ways, I am apprehensive for the time of upheaval that is coming to my country. At the same time, our freedom/liberty and the recognition of rights that we used to give to everyone will only be restored after the U.S., as a whole, is completely humbled (brought low to the dust, in the words of Isaiah), and a remnant rises up to declare liberty.
I’m not sorry to admit it and I’m American…waiting .
really admire your new clothes
What’s good for the goose is good fo the gander.
Yes, “other attacks” in Pakistan.
After reading your article, Glenn, I keep thinking about “The Curious Case of Raymond Davis,” chapters 45 and 46 in Jeremy Scahill’s book “Dirty Wars: The World is a Battlefield.”
Turkish intelligence posing as diplomats with recognized immunity can probably murder/assassinate here with just as much impunity as our own CIA does elsewhere – while pretending they’re State Department. I’m leaning if Erdogan wants him dead Gulen’s chances of living much longer aren’t very good. Unless, for some inconceivable reason, the U.S. government decides to protect him.
gonna get real innerestin’
Erdo- we been re-thinkin’ about that NATO thing and the airbase and all…
Thanks for the reality check, Glenn.
Nixon’s “If the President does it, it isn’t illegal” has been extended to the entirety of whatever dubious things the US government does.
ah yes. Dictatorships going to democracy? not. Democracy going to dictatorship? The nature of the human beast. The law of dominance and territory. The physics of human relationships – power is the center of gravity.
“Would Turkey Be Justified in Kidnapping or Drone-Killing the Turkish Cleric in Pennsylvania?”
every case is unique, it depends on the details. as in all questions of law, it depends on which lawyers are hired and which judges are presiding
It’s an act of war. Although with a coward as POTUS, that really doesn’t matter. There is no law here other then the Law of the Jungle. AKA international Law. Law is law only so long as the police enforce it. As Blackstone said; “The law doers not go where enforcement cannot reach”. There is no real enforcement body in International Law. Which is why the thug nations like Russia and China get away with ignoring what is confused with law on the international stage.
Toumanbeg thug nations? How many foreign bases do russia and china have? How many nuclear missiles on other continents ready to fire? What world are you living in?
Thug nation: Any country that refuses to follow the orders immediately and without question of the “exceptional” international Godfather
Thug nations?China and Russia?Who are they thugging?They’d have to elbow US out of the way to be the thugs we are.We do it all over the world,rip van winkle.
I’ve realized lately that the populace is possibly too propagandized to *want* to see the truth.
The US justifies everything it does with bureaucratic efficiency, often comprising secret memos and secret laws that are essentially “just trust us” documents. This seems to be sufficient, laughably, even to the UN, who seem entirely intimidated by America.
If other countries forgave themselves for torture or justified murder and dirty wars with secret memos they would be rightly scorned by world authorities.
But the US government is intent on always being the world’s Top Dog. It increases Full Spectrum Dominance for itself (meaning actually for the *elite cadre of multinational corporations* who now own the nation) in almost everything it does internationally.
The populace actually approves of this, propagandized as they are into believing American Exceptionalism, and perverted by the deliberately degraded culture into indulging authoritarian sadomasochist fantasies about domination and humiliation in every area of life from the battle of the sexes to political bickering on comment boards. The American people would not give up their “more equal” status any more than they would give up their tinpot parental status in the home or job-status at work which makes them a big toad in a small pond.
What drives such sick authoritarianism is actually insecurity, but that is never acknowledged even though its diseased symptoms often explode in raging attacks and intolerance toward alternate views. This denial is useful to the establishment – who just want the dangerous sense of superiority to persist so the looting of the system and the planet can continue with the stupid blessing of the people, beneath the flattering self-delusion of being part of the most dominant nation.
Unless America consciously undoes this image of itself as “the best,” it will go mad with narcissism.
“What drives such sick authoritarianism is actually insecurity”
if authorities create the insecurity then you have authorities creating authoritarianism (which is like saying democrats – people who believe in “democracy” – create democracy), which is what makes sense
Authorities don’t create the insecurity. Authoritarianism is a mental sickness. The authorities, and the Democrat and Republican establishments, have been corrupted by corporatism, militarism and imperialism. Authoritarianism (with its roots in insecurity and perversion) is the language of the propaganda used by the establishment as a whole to entrench the idea of American dominance as good.
> Authoritarianism is a mental sickness.
then we all have that “sickness” to a degree because we all exist on the spectrum between dominant and submissive, and are all capable of both depending on circumstances. but if the dominant become too dominant and disrespectful of the submissive who do you want to blame? clearly the answer is to blame those who benefit from the arrangement (which may be both, but is very unlikely to be only the submissive)
> The authorities, and the Democrat and Republican establishments, have been corrupted by corporatism, militarism and imperialism.
they haven’t been corrupted, those are the choices they made
One can of course be corrupted *by* the choices one makes, it isn’t a mutually exclusive syndrome whereby victims are surrendering all agency. But the point is that the elite and the establishment – those *conscious* of manipulating the system and the public psyche for profit over peace, people and planet – are the primary ones to blame, for they’re the head of the snake that American culture has unnaturally become.
I wouldn’t be surprised to see a radical restructuring of the American Empire in the next few years. If the TPP fails (it is really a kind of strategic Warsaw Pact deal for the Pacific Rim countries), as it likely will, then that whole region of the U.S. empire will go its own way. If NATO collapses, which it very well might, as it is a decrepit Cold War leftover reeling from the disaster in Afghanistan and utterly dependent on massive national spending by EU members and the United States, then that will be another nail in the coffin. However, we will now the game is really over when most of the far-flung American military bases are closed down or returned to the United States.
This is inevitable; the world is moving towards a world without superpowers and the United States will eventually have no bigger of a foreign military budget than China or Russia does; and the sooner this happens the better.
http://www.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/sovietcollapse.htm
I guess I don’t see the situation as at all out of the establishment’s control, at least not yet – and unless Jill Stein becomes president the US foreign military budget will never be diminished.
as always, your contibution to the wealth of knowledge, insight and accuracy are most appreciated.
i keep seeing a search engine in this very alleyway.
I’ve realized lately that the populace is possibly too propagandized to *want* to see the truth.
nice that you can see – even with eyes wide shut.
i call it the ELVIS SYNDROME… “Are you lonesome tonight”…. where he says “_____________________________”
its all here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cS5aCozhcA
1st off, Gullen hasn’t killed anyone or fielded an organization that did kill or advocate killing anyone.
Plus killing a Ghandi like cat on American soil because a foreign autocratic regime fears open dialogue will back fire
Gulen is no Ghandi…
Ghandi wasn’t self -exiled to the US nor did the US help Ghandi against the brutal British Occupation.
He reminds me of Warren Jeffs with the Mormons…and the all too many cults in America. Gulen is another with a deeper role in American politics to derail power in Turkey…and has a Nationalist movement worldwide imagining another Ottoman Empire. A soft coup so to speak making a parallel empowerment in Turkey using America as a platform. The very same thing that caused the formation of Israel before, during, and after WWII.
https://newrepublic.com/article/79062/global-turkey-imam-fethullah-gulen
Might makes right. Welcome to the second gilded age, Americans.
Make that “Gelded” Age, friend. You know, because America …
Good factual article spot on as always, notwithstanding the shills commenting.
We’d be justified in pounding Ankara & Istanbul into parking lots for our fleets of tanks & drones if they did, Mr. Greenwald.
If Erdogan’s efforts to take out Gülen resulted in “collateral damage” obliterating a birthday party in the Poconos, destroying a bouncy castle and killing 11 sub-teens, would the “condolence payments” provided to Afghan families be sufficient (they vary: about $970 for one dead wife, more than $7,000 for a son blown to bits), or would more money be necessary to satisfy American families, because we are exceptional?
Thank you Doug. Your comment illustrates what a sick society we’ve become….
Not “become,” have always been. The U.S. was founded on murdering the natives, stealing their land and destroying it, and kidnapping & enslaving people from Africa to work it. The U.S. hasn’t been great for over 500 years, and it wasn’t the U.S. back then.
You know…what is even scarier is the fact that Erdogan never suggested any of this. That this mere mention of him using a drone to take out Gulen is taking on a factual air and the spin taking on relevance by a f**king American retired Colonel. Erdogan is using diplomacy the last I read.
This is the very same propaganda that started the Iraq Invasion and all invasions/wars since then.
I don’t think you understood either Glenn or Morris Davis. Maybe you should read the piece again.
Never underestimate the power of suggestion. I’m not negating the arrogance of US/Israel warfare and coups and hypocrisy. But we have a responsibility to not morph a suggestion into a realization in which the MSM is demonstrably good at. Countless retired military work for and design the complex and call the wars into being by making suggestions…and the fire that it causes. GG should know better than to engage with that. Media has power and is easily breached with suggestions that turn into reality. Sorry Doug…but you don’t understand.
That most Americans would be horrified at your suggestion demonstrates how entitled and spiritually dead they are.
Doug Salzmann and the numerous other sock puppets playing here at Ody’s Place are even more depraved than the butt of their analysis kabuki.
Ody’s Barbie House is as cynical and rotten as Bernie Sanders, but the gullible continue to flock.
A very suspicious character Salzmann.Talks out of both sides of his mouth,like a good Zionist.Always knocking US,but never the instigators of our disaster.
I think more money is necessary to satisfy the higher standard of living in USA…..Also, is this income a tax deduction on form 1040?
You betcha. The lucky Pennsylvanians who received payment for dead kids wouldn’t owe a dime in taxes on those payments, to either the Feds or the Commonwealth.
And Turkey would be making payments out of funds collected from working-stiff Turks, so win-win!
Well, except . . . you know.
That’s not fair, the dead kids represent lost future tax revenues. I think they recipients of the consolation payments should be taxed.
my fortune cookie – may you live ininteresting times.
always wondered how interesting can it get.
this is a lot more than simply interesting.
i believe hillary can navigate the waters with the least turmoil, but just not with the best results. Donald can get the best results, just not sure about the price.
https://newrepublic.com/article/79062/global-turkey-imam-fethullah-gulen
[…In a 2008 online poll devised by the British magazine Prospect and the American magazine Foreign Policy, Gülen was voted the most significant intellectual in the world. Graham Fuller, a former CIA agent and the author of several books on political Islam, says that Gülen is leading “one of the most important movements in the Muslim world today.” Yet there is much about him that is not known. One of the biggest mysteries is how much sway he holds over his followers. Some visit Pennsylvania as much as once a month; what do they want from their visits? At the end of my tour, as Aksoy was driving me back to a McDonald’s near the Camp where I had left my car, I asked him whether Gülen tells people what to do.
“He would never tell; he suggests,” Aksoy replied. “And then what do people do with that suggestion?” I asked. “Let me put it this way,” he said. “If a man with a Ph.D. and a career came to see Hocaefendi, and Hocaefendi told him it might be a good idea to build a village on the North Pole, that man with a Ph.D. would be back the next morning with a suitcase.”…]
Read the full story…
What about the indictments against OBL, including for the embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania. Did the Taliban assess or scrutinize that information!? I suggest you read the 9/11 Commission Report to remember how well the Clinton administration’s efforts to compel the Taliban to hand over OBL turned out.
Leftists who like to push the “US didn’t give the Taliban a chance to extradite” charge tend to forget that he was the most wanted terrorist in the world for several years leading up to 9/11
The US has been harboring numerous convicted terrorists for decades. See orlando bosch for one. Does that give Cuba the right to bomb the US? Or a dozen other latin american countries?
As I recall, those indictments were sealed and their existence leaked to the press. Could you cite the place in the Commission’s report, or other official document, that indicates that the evidence presented to secure those indictments was shared with the Taliban?
9/11 Commission Report:
https://fas.org/irp/news/1998/11/98110602_nlt.html
Indictments themselves are not evidence.
What is your criteria for how this process should work? The U.S. was interacting with a group that had no diplomat recognition aside from three countries (Pakistan, Saudis, UAE) Therefore, no extradition treaty. What you are asking for — concrete proof is not only antithetical to the U.S. system of justice, but a standard above and beyond international extradition processes
https://www.justice.gov/usam/usam-9-15000-international-extradition-and-related-matters
Also, we are talking 10 days after the attacks and the Taliban was demanded the U.S. “prove” OBL’s involvement in 9/11. What makes it really ridiculous is that the Taliban didn’t even know where he was:
This had all the indications of a double game or an effort to buy time. There was contradiction everywhere as Mullah Omar had rejected handing OBL over:
Glenn’s suggestion that the Taliban just needed the proper evidence is painful naivete on his behalf. One that he could overcome had he researched past efforts by the U.S. to have the Taliban turn over OBL. Since Glenn didn’t care to do it, I will. All from the 9/11 commission report:
* April 1998 – Ambassador Richardson went to Kabul and “in view of Bin Ladin’s recent public call for all Muslims to kill Americans, Richardson asked the Taliban to expel Bin Ladin. They answered that they did not know his whereabouts. In any case, the Taliban said, Bin Ladin was not a threat to the United States.”
* August 1998 – “Meeting in Islamabad with William Milam, the U.S. ambassador to Pakistan, Taliban delegates said it was against their culture to expel someone seeking sanctuary but asked what would happen to Bin Ladin should he be sent to Saudi Arabia.”
August 1998 – “The United States had issued a formal warning to the Taliban, and also to Sudan, that they would be held directly responsible for any attacks on Americans, wherever they occurred, carried out by the Bin Ladin network as long as they continued to provide sanctuary to it.”
* September 1998 – “when the Saudi emissary, Prince Turki, asked Mullah Omar whether he would keep his earlier promise to expel Bin Ladin, the Taliban leader said no. Both sides shouted at each other, with Mullah Omar denouncing the Saudi government. Riyadh then suspended its diplomatic relations with the Taliban regime.”
* 1999 – “President Clinton invited [Pakistani Prime Minister] Sharif to Washington, where they talked mostly about India but also discussed Bin Ladin. After Sharif went home, the President called him and raised the Bin Ladin subject again. This effort elicited from Sharif a promise to talk with the Taliban. Mullah Omar’s position showed no sign of softening. One intelligence report passed to Berger by the NSC staff quoted Bin Ladin as saying that Mullah Omar had given him a completely free hand to act in any country, though asking that he not claim responsibility for attacks in Pakistan or Saudi Arabia. Bin Ladin was described as grabbing his beard and saying emotionally, “By Allah, by God, the Americans will still be amazed. The so-called United States will suffer the same fate as the Russians. Their state will collapse, too.”
* July 1999 – Clinton labels the Taliban a state sponsor of terrorism.
* Late 1999 – “The United States learned that at the end of 1999, the Taliban Council of Ministers unanimously reaffirmed that their regime would stick by Bin Ladin. Relations between Bin Ladin and the Taliban leadership were sometimes tense, but the foundation was deep and personal. Indeed, Mullah Omar had executed at least one subordinate who opposed his pro-Bin Ladin policy”
* October 2000 – “On the diplomatic track, Berger agreed on October 30, 2000, to let the State Department make another approach to Taliban Deputy Foreign Minister Abdul Jalil about expelling Bin Ladin. The national security advisor ordered that the U.S. message “be stern and foreboding.” This warning was similar to those issued in 1998 and 1999. Meanwhile, the administration was working with Russia on new UN sanctions against Mullah Omar’s regime.”
* December 2000 – “Taking a step proposed by the State Department some months earlier, the United States led a campaign for new UN sanctions, which resulted in UN Security Council Resolution 1333, again calling for Bin Ladin’s expulsion and forbidding any country to provide the Taliban with arms or military assistance. This, too, had little if any effect. The Taliban did not expel Bin Ladin. Pakistani arms continued to flow across the border.”
* June 2001 – ” U.S. envoys again pressed the Taliban to turn Bin Ladin “over to a country where he could face justice” and repeated, yet again, the warning that the Taliban would be held responsible for any al Qaeda attacks on U.S. interests. The Taliban’s representatives repeated their old arguments.”
* 2004 – “The Commission asked Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage … why the State Department had so long pursued what seemed, and ultimately proved, to be a hopeless effort to persuade the Taliban regime in Afghanistan to deport Bin Ladin. Armitage replied: “We do what the State Department does, we don’t go out and fly bombers, we don’t do things like that[;] . . . we do our part in these things.”
Easy: If you want people with whom you do not have formal agreements to do something like extradite a suspect, and they ask you for evidence, you provide evidence at least as complete and compelling as was provided to the grand jury.
If you aren’t willing to do that, and the suspect is a valued guest in a culture with a centuries-old traditional obligation to protect guests (and doesn’t like us much, anyway, for very good reasons), you certainly shouldn’t expect that the suspect will be turned over.
And, of course, “we” didn’t expect or, certainly after 9/11, even want that. The US was thirsty for revenge and only bombing and killing on a significant scale would be sufficient.
That’s how we roll.
” I suggest you read the 9/11 Commission Report to remember how …”
Relying on the same people to investigate a crime they committed is not going to earn you any respect. The NIST report is as corrupt as any report could be. It is full of extraneous data (that’s what you do with engineering test questions: provide extraneous numbers and see if the person knows their ass from that hole in the ground).
Indeed, and if the drone strikes are as clinical and clean and targeted as we are assured they are,and the info gleaned from 5 eyes so tight,wouldnt drones be better deployed in Brussells, Belgium, France and Britain?After all, the terrorist actions in those countries are mostly at the hands of homegrown citizens.
Glenn,
You are a fellow attorney and know that the United States Supreme Court has ruled on this topic already and given it a green light by a 6-3 vote: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Alvarez-Machain
And what if the Turkish supreme court ruled that Turkey has an identical green light? How would Americans react when they exercised this “legal” right in openly carrying out drone killings in US air space?
I know, right? So, now nations have the legal and moral authority to violate another nation’s territorial integrity as long as their courts say it’s ok vis-a-vis domestic law.
I think more than an ”attorney” Glenn is talking here about the very axiomatic tenets of equality under the sun and social contract aspects that are fundamental to any kind of laws, if they are supposed to be laws and not conveniently written, “Anonymous At Work” ”I say so” edicts.
Moreover, not long ago gringos were constantly flying their spy planes right on China’s border. The Chinese downed the plane and captured the crew. As expected, the U.S. started with their b#llsh!ting displays. Collin Powell started clowning around putting angry, contemptuous faces and was even close to swing his fist on camera, but that would have been way too ridiculing.
After that, gringos have not only stopped monitoring China ”from international waters”, but kept a safe distance to China’s assertiveness and claim to power even though they have staged b#llsh!ting ”international court” things saying what China does, occupying places for their own benefit, is ”illegal” (which it is, but well … we see an excellent case of the “pot calling the kettle black”)
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/13/china-damns-international-court-after-south-china-sea-slapdown
https://www.theguardian.com/world/south-china-sea
People raised similar questions, would the U.S. be OK with China constantly flying spy places around It? But, of course, this is not the same because, “’we’ do it, because ‘God‘ has commanded to ‘us’ to make sure there is justice and democracy in the Universe“ …
truth and peace and love,
RCL
oh i see- by the same token the criminals of the planet will go after the refugee in Cuba. Just because President Obama sees what he is doing does not mean he is not using a periscope.
In just a paragraph you have concisely described the mindset of most people in the U.S. which, in part, has been framed by U.S. media. Not long ago someone, apparently after having lots of “porch talkings”, said that s/he considers 85% of gringos to be “defiant idiots”. Those statistics and their reasons could be researched and tested.
I went to school in (East) Germany and smelled their sh!t pretty well (to the point of having run ins with the stasi repeatedly). The disrespectfully anarchic niggah I am, I did engage in long and articulate conversations with all kinds of people young and old, criminals and law-abiding citizens, pro and contra communist rule, Jewish people who never left Germany, street people, University professors, … something that helped me a lot to experience reality first hand is that “Ich bin ein Einzelgänger” (“loner” doesn’t translate it well into English; in German it means more like you prefer to be, do things by yourself, think about them on your own). I would go at times more than twice in a week to a large club (Dresden’s “Der Linden Garten (Liga)”) were the worst of the worst of Dresdener society would go even if I was repeatedly attacked by German and my people and they told me a number of times at school (TU Dresden) I shouldn’t be visiting that place and at times I even felt like they were letting me know they were following me. I still remember how much I liked how lively that place was.
When I see people say, believed that German people have some sort of quarrellings gene that would let them never submit to and ultimately made them go against the Roman Empire, disrespect European pretentiousness to the point of starting two pan European wars I feel like laughing. Or there is something, whatever it is, I am not able to see. German people say: „Alle kochen mit Wasser” (we all cook with water (deep down we are all the same, even if food may be spiced and cooked somewhat differently …)).
Weimar is a short walk from Buchenwald and most German people either didn’t know or didn’t care to know what was going on, what their neighbors were doing. I saw faces of horror and disgust, but most faces are of detachment, indifference
// __ German civilians visit the Buchenwald concentration camp in Weimar, Germany. HD Stock Footage
youtube.com/watch?v=NMLXpNtPsp8
~
from which you can find more here:
http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675049037_Buchenwald-concentration-camp_shrunken-head_trench-feet_German-civilians
Glenn is exceptionally good at this:
// __ FEISTY HARDTALK INTERVIEW WITH GLENN GREENWALD – BBC NEWS
youtube.com/watch?v=bFTzGZ41oew
~
// __ WaPo Reporter Spars With Glenn Greenwald about Edward Snowden & Clemency
youtube.com/watch?v=h-mLV2nz0mA
~
// __ Bill Maher Gets Owned by Glenn Greenwald Over Benghazi and Interventionism – May 10, 2013
youtube.com/watch?v=MB-itn_LJuM
~
That “HARDtalk” Stephen Sackur was so @ss-lickingly stupid that it all seemed staged. Washington Post’ Ruth Marcus more than an Obama loyalist is an idiotic bullsh!tter and Bill Maher trying to dodge the issues and sound funny at the same time “got bored and it and tried to move on” … Yet, Glenn beat the sh!t out of whatever was left of their senses.
Watching Glenn go is like watching Rigondeaux boxing or Isinbayeva pole vaulting. They are above their league to the point of spoiling the game fro every one, but I am afraid that he is not talking to “the average ‘American’ who would not understand [his logic]” and accept facts, simply because he is not speaking a language they understand.
Imagine if after Obama’s nervous statement about metadata b#llsh!t: “No One Is Listening To Your Phone Calls”, Glenn goes ahead and gets phone calls of various politicians (specially those whose @ss are sore from so much lying) and regular folks out there and publicly post them either as calls or their transcripts for people to see if it is right or not. Until you do that to “We the people” would be an “I say tomatoe and you say tomato” routine
Even though we many not like to accept this, most of us who come here to theIntercept would be considered “mavericks” on the fringes of society by most people, who don’t need any convincing by Glenn.
RCL
This from Wnt needs more discussion:
First, the elephant in the room. But apparently to Wnt, the US response to 911 is ancient history and has no relevance. Or perhaps it is a forest/trees issue for him.
Second, is the puffy straw man nature of his argument. So what if the US has managed to get permission to drone some places? The US would not give Turkey permission to bomb PA, but the US has done it in foreign countries without permission.
It appears that the strikes in Pakistan after the death of bin Laden are very dubious – see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drone_strikes_in_Pakistan . But up to 2011 the US has a pretty strong case that they were doing it with local permission, since they were flying out of a Pakistani air base. The nature of the Pakistan government and secret international deals makes it easy to push the limits here, but the US shouldn’t have.
That said, overall with all the countries described in that section below, there *is* a line. Sometimes, as in Syria, that line is crossed, but with substantial reason. I don’t think it’s as good an approximation to say the US can fly wherever it wants and bomb whoever it wants as to say that the US flies only where asked and bombs only what its allies want it to or as part of a just war. Unfortunately, the second is also only an approximation.
Turkey and the US are both part of NATO. Would the US fly a drone strike in France, or Estonia, or any other NATO country, without permission of the local government? I don’t think so. The situation is bad enough without exaggerating it.
[Gaza flotilla
Gülen criticized the Turkish-led Gaza flotilla for trying to deliver aid without Israel’s consent. He spoke of watching the news coverage of the deadly confrontation between Israeli commandos and multinational aid group members as its flotilla approached Israel’s sea blockade of Gaza. He said, “What I saw was not pretty, it was ugly.” He has since continued his criticism, saying later that the organizers’ failure to seek accord with Israel before attempting to deliver aid was “a sign of defying authority, and will not lead to fruitful matters.”[71] ]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fethullah_G%C3%BClen
[Gülen is strongly against Turkish involvement in the Syrian Civil War.[72] While rejecting the Turkish government’s desire to topple the Syrian government of President al-Assad, Gülen supports the military intervention against ISIS.[73][74] ] @ above wiki link.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/13/turkey-pm-greatest-goal-is-to-improve-relations-with-syria-and-iraq
No wonder Sec. Kerry won’t hand over Gulen…
Gulen supports the military intervention against that CIA/MOSSAD fraud ISIS….
Wow…so does the US now that Russia is in the picture.
Gotta laugh.
So dumb. Bin Laden was already a wanted fugitive in connection with several crimes by 2001. (In fact the first Interpol warrant for his arrest came from Libya) The Taliban, who were not a recognized government by the US or hardly anybody else, had already refused to hand over the son in-law of their leader in connection with these crimes. The Taliban’s unwillingness to cooperate was plain to everyone who lacked your child-like faith in their good intentions.
Among real nation states, especially official allies, there is a realistic due process based on a mutual respect for the law. That doesn’t mean everyone is bound to honor every extradition request. We don’t bomb France because they refuse to turn over Roman Polanski.
As usual with you, that’s a bunch of irrelevant spewing. I guess you missed this part:
And you also overlooked this:
So, do tell us why Erdogan shouldn’t drone bomb Gulen in Philadelphia if his extradition request is not granted?
The Taliban were basically a bunch of dirty outlaws themselves and they were not going to hand over bin Laden for crimes that they helped him commit. OBL was literally part of the family. The US never recognized them and rightly decided that it would be worth going to war to neutralize the Taliban’s terrorist network.
Erdogan would be foolish to attack Gulen in the United States for many reasons, but fundamentally it would not be worth ruining his countries relationship with the US to get one man. Just as its not in America’s interest to damage its relationship with France to get Polanski.
More asserted irrelevancies. You completely fail to address whether Erdogan has has the same purported legal right to drone Gulen in the U.S.
Well?
No, nation states can refuse to extradite suspects if they feel they feel there’s insufficient evidence. (not necessarily saying we should refuse) The Taliban, were not a recognized legal government, so they had no right to make any demands, let alone extraordinary demands for evidence. Nor do I think they made those demands in good faith anyways.
You did not answer the question, which is: Does Erdogan have has the same purported legal right to drone Gulen in the U.S.?
How many times do I have to say “no”? Turkey and the US have an extradition treaty and the US hasn’t refused to extradite him anyways.
So if the U.S says “no,” then is it ok for Erdogan to drone Gulen on our soil?
The Talibans rise was a response to the long standing cultural status symbol of enslaving little boys for entertainment and sex by the wealthy warlords, political figures or whoever……
Actually, enslaving little boys to rape was one cultural norm of many that pushed the fundamentalism the Taliban pushed to popularity in that backwards place called Afghanistan.
“Dirty outlaws” doesn’t accurately describe who the Taliban where and what they represented and why they came into the role they were at.
Well he shouldn’t drone bomb Philadelphia because Gulen isn’t in Philadelphia, he’s in a little town in the Poconos.
Also all of this talk of Turkey drone bombing is all academic unless they’ve invented a drone that can fly 5,000 miles without refueling. Nor do I think they have the ability to kidnap him and get him out of the country so their only options are assassination with human agents on the ground or getting the US to extradite.
Oh, it’s not academic. Practical, physical reasons why Erdogan wouldn’t do it are the least interesting issue here.
The question is not whether he has the physical capacity; it’s whether or not Erdogan has a legal and moral justification if he could do it? The same justification the U.S. invokes?
discussing a hypothetical scenario that has 0% chance of becoming reality is the definition of an academic argument
I don’t believe so.
“The Taliban, who were not a recognized government by the US or hardly anybody else. . .”
Hardly true. U.S. negotiations with the Taliban via Pakistan began in the late 1990s in cooperation with Unocal’s effort to build a pipeline across Afghanistan to tap “stranded assets” in the post-Soviet Central Asia zone (Turkmenistan, etc.). (The competing party was Bridas, which had bribed Bhutto’s husband for priority access.)
In order to develop a relationship with the Taliban, the U.S. began delivering tens of millions in direct aid to the Taliban, supposedly in exchange for cooperation on halting opium production (c. 1999-2001), in a joint Clinton – Bush Administration effort.
In the summer of 2001, U.S. State Department representatives were meeting with Taliban leaders in an effort to get them to hand over Osama bin Laden in exchange for much more aid and a pipeline deal. This was overseen by one Christian Rocca at the time. It’s likely that the Taliban kept Osama bin Laden informed of these discussions, and they may have influenced the timing of 9/11.
http://www.historycommons.org/entity.jsp?entity=christina_rocca
Now, many people agree that in the wake of 9/11, the U.S. was justified in using a military force to seize Osama bin Laden – an operation that should have taken no longer than six months. The long-term occupation of Afghanistan was a Vietnam-scale disaster that continues to this day.
However, by the same argument, the U.S. had a much greater justification for invading Saudi Arabia and seizing members of the bin Laden, House of Saud, and bin Mafhouz families for complicity in the 9/11 attacks. This did not happen – indeed, the Saudis were carefully protected from prosecution by President Bush and Congress, who kept key elements of the Saudi ties to 9/11 from the public.
However, this also glosses over the fact that despite multiple warnings of impending terrorist attacks from the CIA, the FBI and international intelligence agencies during the summer of 2001, the Bush Administration took no action to stop the 9/11 attacks, not even something simple like warning the airlines. The fact that these warnings were delivered to the Bush Administration were kept from the American public for years.
The only take-home lesson is that massive terrorist attacks in the United States were used to justify aggressive military actions in foreign countries for the overall purpose of controlling oilfields and pipeline transit routes; there are some similarities to Turkey in that a military coup is being used to expand domestic repression, crush political dissent, and establish Erdogan as a bona fide dictator in the Saudi Royal model.
The most rational explanation is opportunistic exploitation of such events on the part of Bush-Cheney and Erdogan, however, not pre-planning.
Negotiations aren’t the same thing as recognition at all. Foreign governments used to negotiate with Somali pirates all the time, sometimes paying them money for hostages or the right to send ships through their waters. That doesn’t mean they acknowledge the pirates sovereignty or their right to seize foreign vessels. The Taliban were basically pirates themselves, they could have gotten tribute for bin Laden, maybe money for not attacking a pipeline and maybe one day would have become a semi-legitimate government but they chose to remain bandits. They’re happier that way.
Sure Pakistan and Saudi’s are horrible governments that definitely support Islamist terrorism abroad, I think we would be within our rights to attack either one of them, but if you were to overthrow them it would be chaos on a global scale. Again, it’s just not worth it.
Attack Saudi Arabia? Why not start with freezing all the Saudi assets inside the United States and putting an arms and oil embargo in place, to start with? Clearly there’s a human rights and state support for terrorism case for that.
Of course, we’d have to do the same with Israel over their undeclared nuclear weapons program, wouldn’t we?
After all, these are the same reasons Iran’s assets were frozen and they were embargoed on arms, oil and other commodities – undeclared nuclear programs and human rights abuses?
Before we go launching military invasions, shouldn’t we start with sanctions? Sure it would interfere with Wall Street profit margins, as oil from Saudi Arabia feeds global refineries, and arms deals with the Saudis feed Wall Street too. Not worth it?
Roman Polanski is not a threat to any state or government, so that analogy is off base.
If a country like France refused to turn over a suspected terrorist, the only considerations would be practical ones: What methods to use, and what geopolitical repercussions might be like. At no time has principle stopped the US empire from doing anything as far as I can remember.
EU prohibitions against extraditing suspects to countries where they will face the death penalty could trip up something like you imagined. In fact that’s probably the excuse Greece will use to avoid turning over the Turkish Generals who flew in pleading for asylum.
The French hosted the Ayatollah back in the 70s and we didn’t try anything. I’m sure the CIA regrets not doing anything there, as well they should.
Why is that? Because they didn’t hate us enough already?
What are they gonna do? Retreat?
Yeah, and I’m sure lots of Iranians were (and are) sorry they didn’t “do something” about Dwight Eisenhower and Winston Churchill before August, 1953, as would have been perfectly reasonable — wouldn’t it?
Why? The Shah was best leader they ever had. He governed over a period of enormous economic growth and an expansion of legal rights.
@ Whendovescry
I don’t know about best leader of Iran ever, and while it is true to a degree he governed over a prosperous period and expansion of legal rights, whether those improvements, gains or changes to the way society and culture “works” is contingent i.e. it depends on how those changes are assimilated by the people, based on how they are both supported ideologically, culturally and the means by which they are implemented.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Reza_Pahlavi
And that’s not even getting into how regular Iranians felt about the Shah’s role in deposing Mosaddegh or later how SAVAK treated the Iranian people and its dissidents.
The methods one (democratically elected government to a monarch) employs to bring about “change” to a nation matters just as much as the nature of those changes and whether or not the people perceive them as legitimate changes and support them long term.
Yet when Iranians committed the cardinal sin of electing someone who wanted to nationalise their oil industry, it was the UK and US that decided to ‘save’ them from their own folly by installing a puppet dictator. Would you accept Iranians overthrowing your choice of government?
You’re trying so hard to not see the obvious double standards at work here, which is the point of the article.
On the nose. Say Donald Rumsfeld has a garden party at his lavish Eastern Shore estate, with friends and families, chamber music, expensive finger food. Suddenly they are vaporized in a bright white flower. Next day the Taliban dispatches: Our drone got the war criminal and 150 militants (all males aged 16-90). If, unfortunately, their were other casualties (the women and children) we’re sorry. They chose to associate themselves with a war criminal. Stuff happens.
As a aged Vietnam-era veteran, it amazes me that we don’t consider the implications of our actions. That for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. After the mess in SE Asia, I thought, ‘What a waste, but at least we know now. We won’t do something like this again.’ Alas.
Yes, Clare. As a deployed military asset in the Nixon-Kissinger Fig Leaf Contingent (Vietnam, July 1970–Jan 72), I, too, once thought that America had learned a bitter lesson in Southeast Asia: namely: “You Can’t Do A Wrong Thing The Right Way! ” Surely, my country would never do something so mind-bogglingly stupid again. But then came 1991 and President George H. W. Bush loudly crowing: “By God, we’ve kicked the Vietnam Syndrome once and for all.” This, after spending 100 hours slaughtering tens of thousands of Iraqi conscript soldiers in the open desert of Iraq/Kuwait. I had always understood the word “syndrome” to mean “a symptom of a disease,” and so I thought: What kind of a sadistic moron would consider hard-earned wisdom — “Don’t Do It Again!” — as something sick that needed “kicking” (in the sense of kicking a drug addiction, for example)? Then I understood that the U.S. “government” and its ruling “elites,” civilian and military, wanted more than anything on earth to “Do the Impossible and Stupid Again” — and Again, and Again, and Again. This they have now done and seem only too eager to keep on doing because they consider wisdom — dearly bought with the blood and agony of others — a symptom of a disease. Something needs a severe kicking, all right, and I think that the entire upscale sewer known as Washington, D.C. qualifies. The sooner the better for the world.
What clare and Michael said — eloquently.
~Doug (tossed out of Uncle Sugar’s ‘Nam-era Air Force for explaining too persistently and vociferously that what we were doing was wrong, futile and stupid)
My sentiments exactly!
people learn, greed doesn’t.
For three years prior to the 2001 U.S. invasion of Afghanistan, the Taliban led government repeatedly refused to comply with U.S. extradition requests of Osama bin Laden absence evidence of his guilt. In fact, an 11/03/2001 USA today article quoted Saudi Prince Turki al-Faisal’s account of how “Afghanistan’s ruling Taliban militia agreed to extradite Osama bin Laden to Saudi Arabia in 1998 but reneged following U.S. strikes on Afghanistan that year.” In that same article, Prince Faisal was placing the 911 WTC attacks squarely at the feet of al Qeada.
An interesting side note to this revelation is that the Guardian reported in March 2003 that the new Saudi ambassador, Prince Turki al-Faisal, had been named in a U.S. lawsuit that accused him of personally “funding and supporting Osama bin Laden.” In defense of his repeated meetings with the Saudi-backed Taliban in in 1998, Prince Faisal contended that “he was seeking to extradite bin Laden at the request of the United States.” Yet the legal papers alleged something entirely different:
The Guardian story does not end there however. The lawsuit went on to claim that:
That’s right! Just twenty days before the invasion of Iraq, the new Saudi ambassador, Prince Turki al-Faisal, was apparently being thrown under the bus in an effort to link al Qaeda terror to Iraqi intelligence. Yet as stories of this type often go, a US federal judge ruled in 2005 that Saudi officials including Turki were immune from the lawsuit . And yet again:
Mental incompetence?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/mar/02/september11.politics
Oh come on; we are INDISPUTABLY exceptional: exceptionally obese, decadent, hedonistic, armed, violent, militaristic, incarcerated, shallow, myopic, self-absorbed, uninformed, narcissistic, and civically disengaged. (With apologies if I omitted anything, and please add whatever it might be.)
Liberals are not all that bad…
Are you insinuating that conservatives have nothing to do with the descriptives that K.Smith indicated? You would be utterly wrong since conservatives are known to be the main source of those behaviors. Or, are you trying to deflect the blame from conservatives by throwing up a strawman? In so doing, you would only be proving K.Smith to be correct. By stating “we”, K.Smith is clearly indicating “Americans” regardless of political persuasion. So, are you insinuating that conservatives aren’t legal American citizens? If so, mass deportations of all conservatives would be in order.
Chill out Tim… I was merely looking for a definition of “we” (“we are INDISPUTABLY…”) for clarity sake. For example: “We Bush men are INDISPUTABLY exceptional: exceptionally obese, decadent, hedonistic, armed, violent, militaristic, incarcerated, shallow, myopic, self-absorbed, uninformed, narcissistic, and civically disengaged.”
Oh come on; Americans are not all bad. For instance I loved your “When the Moon Comes Over the Mountain!”
When the Moon Comes Over the Mountain— K. Smith
I bet even Turkey will be more civilized about it. They’ll pursue legal and political avenues to achieve their objective.
Such a well-reasoned essay. If you could hold any current US establishment figure in a room and force them to debate the issue, eventually they would cave and admit, “Yeah, we ARE exceptional.” They probably find the idea of a universal humanitarian law to be quaint and naive.
Can TI put the time zone next to the time stamp posted, or is that too tall an order? Alrighty. J’confuse.
I’d prefer Co-ordinated Universal Time and a 24 hour clock. This insular AM/PM and standard/daylight drivel, along with Imperial measurement is a millstone around the neck of civilization…although our fearless leaders love to call it “tradition”.
Rant complete.
Yup. Got in one, Glenn. ;^)
Nailed it.
Love my country but hate my government.
Would the Ukrainian people be justified in droning the owner of this website, who financially benefited and supported the illegal overthrow of a democratically elected president?
OUCH!
Of course not, Jamie. Pierre has done nothing justifying droning.
It would, however, be perfectly appropriate for Ukrainians to overthrow the First Look management, drive managers and editors into exile, install their own replacements and support a crushing military response if the displaced personnel showed any resistance.
Bit of a false dichotomy, since the point of this article is to explain why drone assassination is categorically illegal as well as immoral. Never mind whether or not what you’re saying is even true, which I imagine, it isn’t.
Argument by factually apt analogy isn’t a lot of people’s strong suit around here.
Yeah, I’d say Jamie missed his/her Sesame Street. (I’d say Karl did as well, but his deficits are multiple and it’s hard to say which one is more in play.)
Your incessant pleas for my attention are duly noted.
Superpower double standard. Please explain it to Hillary & Drumpf.
a little OT but this “coup attempt” was awfully convenient for Erdogan wasn’t it. He was able to rid himself of thousands of judges and high ranking military figures who opposed him, all in one fell swoop, Why one might think he arranged it all himself.
However, if he didn’t and if this cleric is to blame he should by all means drop a dron strike on him, and then maybe the US public will get a clue as to the consequences of their government’s actions elsewhere.
It might be, though I’m loathe to jump to the conclusion you’re formulating without more clear evidence. Coups have been attempted and failed disastrously before, and it’s really hard for me to imagine Erdogan would go to the risk of a coup /actually/ theoretically succeeding. I mean, he’s for all intents and purposes a Western-style democracy. It’s not like he can’t just, you know, ignore laws and Constitutional principles like our own government does. He doesn’t really need a coup for that.
I wouldn’t call Erdogan’s Turkey a Western Style democracy. It is however a bulwark against strict sharia based Islam. I was reading up on the supposed source of the coup – the imam in the US – Gulan. It appears those that follow him are very moderate, civic minded, charitable Muslims
From http://www.theatlantic.com/news/archive/2016/07/fethullah-gulen-reading-list/491720/
Suzy Hansen in The New Republic
http://newrepublic.com/article/79062/global-turkey-imam-fethullah-gulen
Erdogan’s ever increasing clampdown on the media and judges is much more the mark of a dictator than a lover of democracy and given that I can certainly see how he would view this imam and his movement as a threat, if the the descriptions above are accurate.
When I first heard about the coup I (foolishly) believed the story of it being Fethullah Gulen, the imam in PA, who was to blame. It seems however that a coup would be the last thing that his group would want.
As Suzy Hansen said in The New Republic http://newrepublic.com/article/79062/global-turkey-imam-fethullah-gulen
I can certainly see how a wannabe dictator like Erdogan would look upon a group like that, a group that is very popular in Turkey it seems, as a threat. So who then and why? Erdogan has come under a lot of criticism and he’s clamped down hard on the media and social media as a result. Staging a coup against himself would gain him sympathy from the public and ridding himself of nearly 3000 judges and prosecutors who don’t see eye to eye with him seems awfully convenient. I doubt we’ll ever know.
“Why one might think he arranged it all himself.”
But curiously with the help of MSNBC citing an anonymous US military source at the delicate tipping point of the coup. https://www.stratfor.com/situation-report/turkey-president-reportedly-seeking-asylum-germany?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=article
This “news” sure made the coup seem real. If staged, how would Erdogan have pulled this complicity off with MSNBC?
On the other hand, if the coup was backed by others, this news release might have emboldened wavering backers and discouraged Erdogan supporters from taking to the streets and help the coup become a fait accompli.
Why would US Defense Dept be an MSNBC trusted source about Germany saying no to an asylum request anyway? Why not a German source? Funny that Der Speigel also reported this deflating Erdogan news citing MSNBC as the source.
Also a funny coincidence that the American Enterprise Institute green-lighted a Turkish coup a few months ago:
“So if the Turkish military moves to oust Erdo?an and place his inner circle behind bars, could they get away with it? In the realm of analysis rather than advocacy, the answer is yes. At this point in election season, it is doubtful that the Obama administration would do more than castigate any coup leaders, especially if they immediately laid out a clear path to the restoration of democracy.”
https://www.aei.org/publication/could-there-be-a-coup-in-turkey/
Well the Obama administration certainly seems to want Erdogan in power and the media in DC is very closely linked, past and present to that administration
ABC News executive producer Ian Cameron is married to Susan Rice, National Security Adviser.
CBS President David Rhodes is the brother of Ben Rhodes, Obama’s Deputy National Security Adviser for Strategic Communications.
ABC News correspondent Claire Shipman is married to former Whitehouse Press Secretary Jay Carney
ABC News and Univision reporter Matthew Jaffe is married to Katie Hogan,Obama’s Deputy Press Secretary
ABC President Ben Sherwood is the brother of Obama’s Special Adviser Elizabeth Sherwood
CNN President Virginia Moseley is married to former Hillary Clinton’s Deputy Secretary Tom Nides.
While some of the above has likely changed (marriages breakup and jobs get changed) it does not change the fact of how deeply intertwined the MSM is with this (and probably previous) administrations. It’s a giant circle jerk.
The rest – leaks planted by Erdogan’s administration I would suppose.
I’m not saying this was a false flag situation, just that it sure worked out favourably for him and it ended rather easily. He got to get rid of nearly 3000 judges and prosecutors not to mention a ton of military brass that might have plotted against him anyways – a fine tradition in those parts.
America is the author of “Hypocrisy For Dummies” It is a must read at all institutions where people wear uniforms, medals and guns or $8,000 suits.
SPOT ON.
Glenn, you’re a moron.
Sitting on the porch talking with friends and/or family in the evening, I’m amazed at how many people, old and young alike, who don’t know we(the US) are still at war, nearly fifteen years running. A good portion of those that know, approve, with some even espousing the use of nukes. When pointing out that drones could someday be circling over our neighborhoods, the derisive laughter gets pretty loud. “That could never happen”, “We’re protected by the Constitution”, and my favorite”Let ’em come, I’ll shoot ’em down”. An informed public? Yeah, right.
We ( US ) just may be nuked one day in a false flag attack in order to keep the military industrial complex rolling.
With the army in jail it would be the right time for the Russians to attack, roast them and enjoy early Thanksgiving.
Well said Glen!
Don’t wait for entitlement; just do it. Of course Turkey would likely no longer be a NATO member; but, if important enough to them… they should do what they have to do. And, the U.S. will cont. to do what it does.
Obama’s own words reveal his hypocritical stance on domestic U.S. violence, violence in foreign countries, and the violence he himself orders via the drone assassination program:
On the coup in Turkey:
On attacks on police forces in the United States:
On extrajudicial assassination of people on the “kill list”:
Funny, that last quote could have been what the people who killed police officers in Baton Rouge and Dallas were thinking, right? That’s how Erdogan will justify his crackdown on opponents, as well.
Once you open the door to extrajudicial assassination and “kill lists,” you lose whatever moral authority you have to condemn such actions by others, be they dictators in Turkey or assassins anywhere. The president is the leader, the one with the bully pulpit, and the leader has set an example: killing the bad guys without trial is justifiable.
Then it’s just a question of deciding who the “bad guys” are – and of course people will disagree on that, but as long as you determine that you yourself have “unilateral executive authority”, you too can consider yourself judge, jury and executioner. Thus, anyone can point to the drone assassination program as the ultimate justification for their own murderous agenda.
This is a strong argument for limiting executive authority and restoring the system of checks and balances, by classifying drone assassinations as acts of war that require Congressional authorization, i.e. no more drone strikes in Pakistan unless we declare war on Pakistan via a Congressional act.
I don’t understand this. I thought that the U.S. always claimed to have authorization from somebody to go flying drones. The Yemen or Nigerian government. Occasionally a UN resolution. Some kind of authority in Pakistan, though there is something hinky with that I don’t understand. And Afghanistan was the rare exception to prove the rule where the U.S. threatened war unless permission was given, and their government received so little consideration when it demurred because they weren’t recognized by anybody in the world, some contretemps over, what was it, killing the British ambassador or something?
Anyway, tell me straight: what countries does the US fly killer drones into that it is not at war with, does not have permission from the national government, and does not have permission via the UN?
As far as I can tell it goes like this:
Has full permission from the internationally recognized government to basically do whatever: Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, Yemen*, Nigeria.
No official permission but tacit approval to bomb the country as long as US doesn’t kill people the government likes: Syria, Pakistan**
Probable permission but it happened so long ago and so infrequently that it is hard to say for sure: Phillipines.
*For Yemen the government means “the one the Saudis support”
** the US pushes boundaries the most in Pakistan and that is where the government’s disapproval of the bombings is the strongest.
The situation with Syria is laid out here: https://dronewars.net/2014/11/07/drones-in-iraq-and-syria-what-we-know-and-what-we-dont/ In short, this looks like the clearest case where the US is bombing a country without a UN resolution or explicit permission. That said, it is also a case in which the national boundary has become a mere line on an old map, and where war crimes are the true law of the land; Jefferson’s justification about the “Enemies of Man” seems eminently applicable.
Ever use Google?
drone “national sovereignity”
“Pakistan accuses US of violating national sovereignty with Taliban drone strike”
http://www.dw.com/en/pakistan-accuses-us-of-violating-national-sovereignty-with-taliban-drone-strike/a-19276393
And yes, it is a violation of international law, but the architects of the imperial agenda are bent on maintaining U.S. exceptionalism to the rule of international law, from Bush to Obama:
Nothing is more hilarious than listening to Obama pontificate on the “rule of law”; after giving a pass to Wall Street on corporate fraud (including HSBC running the world’s biggest drug cartel money laundering program for ten years), after running a drone assassination program throughout his presidency, and after his Secretary of State Clinton was allowed to run pay-to-play arms deals with dictators and corporations that funneled cash into her private foundation.
It’s just gross corruption in government identical to that seen during the Bush Administration.
Yes, the US has authorization from some governments, including the government it installed in Afghanistan, what was the corrupt government of Ali-Abdullah Saleh in Yemen, and the Somali government in exile, which the US/Ethiopia installed and protected. A pretty flimsy cast. In any case, ghostyghost is correct that the strikes have been only marginally approved by Pakistan, whose intelligence service has worked with the Taliban, the main targets of US strikes. The US has targeted and pursued suspects in Pakistani space without the permission of the Pakistani government. It’s documented in The Intercept’s Jeremy Scahill’s book Dirty Wars. Furthermore, the US has no permission to be conducting massive airstrikes, assassinations, and clandestine operations in Syria. There is no doubt that the US has and would conduct strikes against people it wants to kill with or without the permission of the government in question.
Can you imagine the reaction if Turkey hit the wrong person? Like we do all the time. Imagine they try to do what the US does, and track his phone. But he lends his phone to an American friend, whose entire family is blown up. Everybody would consider that a horrifying attack on human rights, and act of war, murder justifying prosecution etc.. But when we do it…
Do you mean “permission” from AIPAC controlled Congress…AIPAC controlled NATO, UN, ICC???
You really need to go to the root of the problem to get your answer(s).
Let’s face it…unless Gulen is a CIA/Mossad asset…he would be clearly a “terrorist”…especially when US refuses to extradite him. Otherwise why would it matter to the anti Islamic US/Israel morons?
These were some fantastic answers, eh Wnt?
Two people just looked the answer up on Google and pretended to be experts, all while acting high and mighty and then the third blamed AIPAC just because.
But everybody here is so well informed! But everybody here knows better! Those conservatives are so evil and we are better! Omgz the sky is falling… revolutionz! You are an idiot if you disagree!
Might as well say ‘duh’ Charlie…
Wake me when you have a cogent reply and not something a fifth grader would have penned.
Good one, bro… that was cogent.
It was more cogent than your ad hominem attack. Though really, that’s a low bar to go over, I basically just had to watch that I didn’t stub an toes.
More so than anything you’ve put forth but then, that’s a low bar to get over. I basically just had to not stub my toes.
“Those conservatives are so evil and we are better!”
Have you noticed, charliethre.. that the perpetrators of the Obama drone assassination program are all self-described ‘liberals’?
You should also be willing to recognize that a ‘conservative’ view of the Constitution is not in accord with a ‘liberal’ view of executive authority; Cheney had such a liberal view of presidential power, as did his sleazy lawyers like Yoo and Addington. Real conservatives would thus oppose the drone assassinations, not support them.
Power-mad sociopaths, regardless of what they call themselves, just love the idea of being able to kill people without judicial oversight.
A related topic:
http://www.vox.com/2016/7/16/12184772/white-boy-privilege-royce-mann
“I know it wasn’t us eighth-grade white boys who created this system, but we profit from it every day. We don’t notice these privileges, though, because they don’t come in the form of things we gain, but rather the lack of injustices that we endure.”
Double-standards of the United States! US and its cronies in the mainstream media accuse others of sheltering terrorists or supporting terrorism without presenting any proof, merely relying on the words uttered by the White House, CIA and the Pentagon guys, which are then held more truthful than the biblical verses. US will continue to show duplicity and talk about ‘evidence and proof’ from Muslim countries, while blindly accepting the narratives of the same sort from countries like Israel, India and the UK etc.
Might makes right, and justice is out of sight.
All right, all right, all right!
9 word soliloquy.
the strong do what they can, the weak suffer what they must, in the end we all turn to dust
http://i.quoteaddicts.com/media/q5/943485.png
It is murder and crime, not exceptionalism.
America loves its euphemisms – rendition, enhanced interrogation, collateral damage, targeted killing, disposition matrix, metadata collection, power projection, exceptionalism.
Kidnapping, torturing, murdering, assassinating, hit listing, spying, racketeering megalomaniacs.
Sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick.
“Secretary of State John Kerry demanding of Turkey: “Give us the evidence, show us the evidence. We need a solid legal foundation that meets the standard of extradition.””
As you pointed out, the Taliban said the same thing, regarding bin Laden. The US felt perfectly justified to invade Afghanistan anyway. Killing a single person in Pennsylvania hardly rises to the level of a crime of aggression against an entire country. Yet it is highly doubtful that the ‘leaders’ of the US will get the parallels. After all, the Assassin-Chief, as he gives his near-daily “why can’t we get along” speech after the latest round of domestic violence, fails to see his own contribution to the “eye for an eye” insanity.
I thought of that same request from the Taliban when I hear the US asking for evidence before they could agree to extradite Gulen. I also seem to recall something about an extradition request from Venezuela to the USA for someone responsible for blowing up a plane. That was refused. Then there was the one the USA tried for Edward Snowden that failed the ‘solid legal foundation that met the standard of extradition’ or that’s what the folks in Hong Kong said.
There are so many examples of ‘do as I say and not as I do’ that I am afraid hypocrisy is now the new normal. “Nothing to see here folks.” But keep up the good work in calling it out.
This is such a perfect send-up of the horrific military theater of the absurd we are engaged in. There is no better way to illustrate how lawless and arrogant our behavior around the globe has been.
I am always struck that during our presidential races, these kinds of issues are so kept in the dark. People who are devoted to Bernie Sanders don’t seem to acknowledge that when in comes to foreign policy, he is for the most part a party apparatchik, even though he should be given credit for his comments on Palestine in the current climate. In true American narcissistic style, the voters are happy to focus on a domestic agenda. Of course that is important, but the connection is never made between repression abroad and conditions at home.
The extreme violence of our culture–the way that we deal with conflict–is also part and parcel of our militarism and lawlessness. And yet people always wonder why we behave this way. It is critical for us to educate ourselves about our grotesque military adventures abroad, or we will never understand how connected it all is–how our leaders increasingly see us in the same way that they see the populations of conquered populations abroad.
Is there any place on earth where ordinary people care more about foreign policy than they do domestic agendas?
Yes. In every country that we bomb, in every country that our drones release hellfire missiles, there are ordinary people who care more about foreign policy than they do domestic agendas. Why? Because it is U.S. foreign policy that destroys any domestic agenda those ordinary people could hope to have.
Exactly. And as citizens of an openly proclaimed empire, we have an obligation to know what is being done in our name and with our tax dollars.
Performing this procedure on our 50+ on loan to Turkey nukes might be wize.
The B61 also features a “command disable” mechanism, which functions as follows: after entering the correct 3-digit numeric code it is then possible to turn a dial to “DI” and pull back a T-shaped handle which comes away in the user’s hand. This action releases a spring-loaded firing pin which fires the percussion cap on an MC4246A thermal battery, powering it up. Electrical power from the thermal battery is sufficient to “fry” the internal circuitry of the bomb, destroying critical mechanisms without causing detonation. This makes the bomb incapable of being used. Any B61 which has had the command disable facility used must be returned to Pantex for repair.
Foreign agenda = war = war machine support = mass surveillance = jobs = domestic agenda.
Where’s the disconnect? I’m not sure I’m seeing it. By preaching about war, politicians are preaching about jobs. How many people’s livelihoods are connected to supporting government?
Not only am I seeing people fail to make the connections, but I also see a widespread ignorance about our foreign policies, who we are bombing at any given moment, our massive arms trades, the warnings of intelligence agencies about blowback (they hate us for our freedoms, remember), the continuation of the Monroe Doctrine, the build-up of NATO forces around Russia, and so on and so on and so on. Nobody wants to think about these things. The myth of American innocence is so much easier.
So very true. Anyone i talked to seems amazed when I point out we’re droning Yemen. People just don’t like to read in the US anymore. They prefer mindless TV corporate drones to tell them what they should know.
Sad.
“In true American narcissistic style, the voters are happy to focus on a domestic agenda.”
Perhaps but I think it is the corporate media that is controlling that narrative, and not just the corporate media, also the private foundation-financed “liberal media” like NPR and its right-wing analogues (talk radio, etc.). There’s a universal avoidance of foreign policy issues in the media, even though the U.S. has the biggest foreign military budget by far of any country, as well as a planet-spanning system of military bases.
One of the more telling features of U.S. corporate media is actually the weather reports – there’s no coverage outside the borders of the U.S. This is deliberate; every other country’s media covers international weather. This is one reason so many Americans can’t even find Iraq and Afghanistan on a map, let alone Yemen, Somalia, Ukraine and Georgia, or Somalia and Libya and Syria.
After Vietnam, it became clear that if American civilians were exposed to the violence perpetuated by the military-industrial complex in the name of imperial control and Wall Street profits, they would protest – so the media, owned largely by Wall Street, began a deliberate program of avoiding coverage of such conflicts while also encouraging those conflicts (notably seen in the ‘liberal’ NYTimes cheerleading for the 2003 Iraq Oil War.)
The role the U.S. conglomerated media plays in this country is almost identical to the role of Russian media in promoting government agendas during the Soviet Empire era, such as cheerleading for the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in 1979. As with Soviet newspapers, the ‘leading American papers’ these days are best used to line cat-litter boxes. Reading them is a waste of time, unless you’re interested in propaganda analysis.
That same media likes to emphasize our role as consumers rather than citizens, encouraging a narrow-minded self-absorption.
This is made easy to do because another facet of the coverage of US news from across the globe is that it is so fragmented that the reader is unable to piece together a true understanding of all the factors that impact any given event. What is left out is often more important than what is stated. Israel, of course, is the prime example of this.
And this is why real, adversarial journalists and whistle blowers are the heroes of our times. We need them.
It isn’t quite fair to use the word “invasion” by Russia in Afghanistan in the same way it would to say the US “invaded” Iraq and Afghanistan. So the media’s role wasn’t quite the same either.
And while it was somewhat complicated in many ways, it started with the recognized government of Afghanistan requesting Soviet intervention in the face of a domestic rebellion, and for the most part Soviet leadership was reluctant to provide the military assistance and/or intervention requested (although they ultimately did and paid the price):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet%E2%80%93Afghan_War
What is interesting to me is that the US made many, if not almost exactly, the same mistakes the Soviet Union did in trying to “pacify” the rebellious Afghans and/or install a puppet regime that was not popular with the indigenous Afghans.
Well except the US wasn’t invited in to assist the recognized government of Afghanistan.
Lesson: maybe the other nations of the world should leave Afghanistan and its people be, because they really don’t seem to like being fucked with and bombed by anybody. And since they have turned long term guerilla warfare into an art form maybe it’s just best to let Afghanistan and Afghans sort out their own internal affairs without outside meddling. See alsoBritish experience in Afghanistan.
Many many people from political junkies to academics predicted quite accurately what would happen if America sought to exert a military presence or control over that nation–a long-term humanitarian disaster/military quagmire . . . .
It’s hard to say who made the biggest mistake by attempting to exert military control over Afghanistan – the Soviet Union or the American Empire. Gorbachev said this in 2010, however:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-south-asia-11633646
Obama has instead decided to re-up troops in Afghanistan – and not surprisingly, the corporate media has not made this an election issue, though you would think it is an important factor, something the candidates should be quizzed about.
More evidence that the end days of the American Empire are upon us, I’d say.
I completely agree Glenn!
I believe we experienced a “soft coup” because accountability is missing from our representatives areas of concern. They then remove accountability from law enforcements areas of concern for their own personal security reasons among others.
What I’m often amazed by is how the US government and its followers, can put out world class rhetoric about how violence is not the answer, that there is no excuse for violence…..all while simultaneously conducting an ongoing war against….I’ve lost track, is it “terrorism”?….”Islam”? It depends on which part of the US government is speaking.
Here’s some old quotes on how political violence is ohh so very bad,….always and forever:
…Here’s another one from a while back:
So there you’ve got Obama blaming the Donald, and Bernie and their supporters for using violence to affect politics.
Now where could Americans have gotten the idea that violence was the answer?????
You could also look at the two recent cop killers. Both trained in America’s attacks on other countries. They seem to have learned the lesson that if killing to get what you want is the answer in Iraq and Afghanistan, then it follows that killing is the answer in America.
America has spent many years making the case that violence IS the answer. It’s not hypocrisy, it’s opportunism. Americans don’t want Turkey to drone America. But they ARE happy that their army is bigger,… They aren’t happy because such an army can uphold the United Nations charter against agressive war. Americans are happy because their army is so big they can ignore the opinions of the world and kill people around the world with politics that they don’t like.
And people are getting that message…from American veterans with PTSD to Chinese leaders looking to expand their control of the seas, to America’s allies in Turkey.
A soldier trained to “spray and pray” In Iraq…is going to do …what? …when they want something when they get back to the US?
America’s competitors across the globe, when they are in a territorial dispute, will they put their trust in internationalist institutions?…or will they do as the US does, and take what they want?
And the Turkish people…where are they to look for democratic support? The US with its long history of supporting coups?
“…..all while simultaneously conducting an ongoing war against….I’ve lost track, is it “terrorism”?….”Islam”? It depends on which part of the US government is speaking.”
Am I the only one who, upon hearing of the new terrorist group ISIS, suspected that they got the name from some video game and made up some words to go with the acronym? Marketing!!!
The US government does believe in violence and the use of force, rhetoric notwithstanding. It believes it should have a monopoly on violence.
…and about all those NATO nukes sitting in Turkey?
We have been at war in Afghanistan for 15 years. The American people go to work, come home, sometimes have sex and go back to work the next day. We bomb wedding parties, hospitals… we sponsor rebels in Syria who are no different than ISIS… we are allied with Turkey and SA who are ideologically similar to ISIS… none of this gets noticed by Americans.
Americans have been this way since I have been alive and I’m closing in on 50.
As much as the logic of GG is fascinating, I don’t think it will make much difference to the average American who would not understand it.
I am more humble than you would understand! Murica.
All that said, keep doing what you do GG. Some of us appreciate it. Even if it won’t do much good, we still have to try I think.
I feel a deep personal connection to this topic. My son just graduated from a Harmony HS. (“Gulen-affiliated”? not that I ever saw)
Interestingly, an anti-Harmony (“They run madrassas!”) local GOP meeting was where I had the misfortune of being within sweating distance of then Senatorial candidate Ted Cruz. Luckily I managed to suppress my gag reflex.
My son and I were joking that in all the years (7) he spent there, he was never encouraged to convert to Islam, and failed to receive any instruction on how to effectuate a coup d’etat.
Apparently Gulen is a very crappy terrist.
Did your son’s Gulen-linked charter school award contracts to Turkish-controlled businesses, even if they weren’t the lowest bidder? Did they provide work visas to help Turkish men immigrate to the US, even if there were qualified local teachers available? Did the school provide campaign contributions and/or free trips to Turkey to local politicians?
Why do feel ok about your tax dollars paying for a school with links to a foreign network with shadowy tactics and motives, which now stands accused of plotting a military coup? Why shouldn’t Gulen be operating private schools (as he does all over the world) rather than taxpayer-financed charter schools?
Charter schools are unregulated cash cows that have been enmeshed in scandals of all types, from fraud to kickback schemes of many types. We need well-funded and well-regulated public schools, with oversight from democratically elected school boards.
“Did they provide work visas to help Turkish men immigrate to the US, even if there were qualified local teachers available?”
You might find more sympathy here for the generally commendable anti-neoliberal instinct on the issue of charter schools if you didn’t bundle it with a xenophobic-sounding “they’re takin’ our jobs!” appeal to US economic nationalism. So what if Turkish educators are allowed to immigrate to the US to teach in US schools? In fact, good for them! Glad to have them here! Would the problems you’re describing with Gulen’s operation be any less alarming if more of the teachers were nice white ladies and not scary brown foreign people?
I have no objection to highly trained, highly skilled foreign educators emigrating to the US to obtain full teacher certification and fill open positions.
I do object to non-educators being selected to come to the US to become first-time teachers, with only a temporary substitute teacher license, due to their political allegiance to the sponsor of their visa.
Educate yourself about the situation before screaming “Bernie bro!”
Who said anything about “Bernie bro”? In fact, it’s quite disturbing that you would see a criticism of implicit anti-immigrant rhetoric and assume it must be coming from a right-wing neoliberal point of view (i.e. from a Hillary supporter attacking Bernie supporter). I believe in open borders and free movement of people because I’m to the left of Bernie, not because I’m to his right.
But back to your implicit anti-immigrant rhetoric: the fact that charter schools in the US are allowed to get around baseline educational standards like teacher training is one thing, and the fact that Gulen’s charter schools employ significant numbers of immigrants as teachers is another. If there are underqualified teachers teaching in Gulen’s US-based charter schools, by all means there should be more rigorous certification requirements, but why does these teachers’ country of origin have anything whatsoever to do with it? Acting as if these two issues are connected when they’re not is at best pandering to xenophobia, and at worst blatantly xenophobic itself.
[“So what if Turkish educators are allowed to immigrate to the US to teach in US schools? In fact, good for them! Glad to have them here! “]
A little harder for Palestinian educators though…you know, they don’t have air bases and NATO nukes…only occupied nukes.
@ Will G-R
In fact those Turkey educators don’t even have to speak English…
dailycaller.com/2016/07/13/new-ties-emerge-between-clinton-and-mysterious-islamic-cleric/
“Sigh”, because, David – the “links” are all under your tinfoil hat. Wingnuts have been complaining about Harmony schools since their inception, they’ve been audited repeatedly and the result is… bupkes.
Dallas public schools generally suck. My local HS is probably 90% white-bread, which I definitely did NOT want.
My kid went to a smallish school where the teachers/admin were intensely focused on his academic and personal development. I couldn’t be happier.
Where are these repeated fruitless audits? Please provide links.
All the research I’ve seen shows clear connections between Gulen and the Gulen charter schools, I provided links to background info about it in another comment.
Dude, we’re through. Spare me you six-degrees of of Gulen hooey.
Harmony schools have earned national recognition for their performance, with multiple schools appearing on lists such as U.S. News & World Report’s “Best High Schools in the Nation,” Newsweek’s “America’s Best High Schools,” and The Washington Post’s Challenge Index. Additionally, in 2013, Harmony won a $30 million Race to the Top-District grant from the U.S. Department of Education to further personalize learning for its students.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/dc-charter-school-board-harmony-democracy-prep-schools/2013/11/19/7cb59ef8-5123-11e3-9e2c-e1d01116fd98_story.html
Re: Audits – you can check w the U.S. Dept. of Ed. and TEA for yourself.
As far as money goes, I’m more concerned about wastes like this one
http://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/news/2015/08/26/60m-allen-eagle-stadium-to-once-again-open-for.html
@bamage, you’re setting the bar pretty low, strange that you don’t seem to care about the political or financial ties of your son’s school as long as wasn’t explicitly encouraged to convert.
I live in Texas too, I’ve seen Harmony schools popping up all over and I don’t understand why there is tax money to pay for these charter schools, but not to fix up the public schools.
You’re right, I couldn’t care less about the alleged political ties of my son’s school. All I cared about was the quality of his education and the scholastic environment. Harmony funded the campus construction through bonds, which they’ve consistently repaid.
The TX lege has explicitly incentivized charter schools under the “Choice” mantra. In my case, the choice was a good one.
Gulen operates a network of charter schools in the US. The Gulen charter schools give contracts/payments to Gulen-linked businesses, immigration visas for Turkish men who become teachers in the US, and allow for indoctrination of students and community members through “Turkish culture events” and free trips to Turkey.
Some speculate that Gulen’s friendly treatment by the US government is due to CIA involvement/protection, but it may just be the result of the lobbying, campaign contributions, and free trips to Turkey that Gulenists dole out to politicians at the local, state, and federal level.
There is something very strange about Gulen and his activities in the US, much more reporting needs to be done on this topic.
Here is some background info:
http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/foreign-policy/274675-why-should-turkish-cleric-fethullah-gulen-operate-charter
https://dianeravitch.net/2016/07/17/jersey-jazzman-what-we-dont-know-about-fethullah-gulen-and-the-gulen-network/
http://turkishinvitations.weebly.com/
David, I must apologize to myself.
Had I seen this 100% bullshit prior comment of yours –
“Gulen operates a network of charter schools in the US.”
I would have known better than to respond.
Luis Posada Carriles can be added to the list of terrorists that are harbored by the U.S.
And if the Cuban government killed him on the streets of Miami do you think that would lead to war? Nah, most Americans (outside of South Florida) would think “this doesn’t concern me or mine, I don’t like it but not worth getting too worked up about.” Hell, Russia probably assassinated an ex-Putin aid in a DC hotel just a few months ago and literally no one cares.
Conversely, if we sent assassins to kill Edward Snowden do you think Russia would declare war? Did any of the examples Glen listed in his article (sans Bin Laden) lead to war?
You seem to think that the US goes to war based on what “most Americans think”.
Next!
That’s the argument that Glen is making, that the killing of Gulen would cause all Americans to “explode in nationalistic outrage” and implies that it would be nearly impossible for Obama and other decision makers to NOT escalate tensions to the point of war with Turkey because a bloodthirsty public would demand it.
My point is that people have and do get assassinated by foreign governments on US soil for some time now without much consequence. Now could the government use such a thing as a casus belli for war? Sure, in fact I believe if the alleged Iranian plot to kill the Saudi Ambassador to American by blowing up Cafe Milano in DC had succeeded that war would have been the consequence because that’s what the policymakers would have wanted even if a significant portion of Americans quietly didn’t care all that much that a Saudi and a bunch of Washingtonians they hate got killed.
If the Cuban government detonated a bomb in the US in order to assassinate someone, let a lone a missile launched from a drone, of course there would some repercussions.
Definitely they would not get off without any consequences. At the very least the recent rapprochement/easing of the embargo would be reversed. But I have sincere doubts that it would lead to war unless the death toll was substantial.
Contempt for the rule of law also extends to US “partners” and “allies” Bahrain comes to mind as an example in the news of recent days. Further, the EU/EZ which is fully captured by German hegemony can and has stripped democracy from Greece because it “owes” German and French money which was irresponsibly and likely illegal and odious debt. We now know what the capitalist value of democracy really is.
The US tortures people with impunity – aside from wars of choice and aggression no crime could be worse – except perhaps honoring those who ordered and/or carried it out and refusing to prosecute.
or plan B. Glenn: Would Turkey be Justified Invading and Occupying Pennsylvania?
*I’ve heard those Pennsylvanians are tough as a coffin nails … especially the tribes up in the Catskill mountains!
Jokes on them, the Catskills are in New York. That kind of lack of knowledge of the local terrain would allow the Gulenists to slip away and launch a guerrilla insurgency from their Appalachian hideaways (all the while Gulen himself lives in a compound in Quantico, Virginia)
Turkey’s President Recep Tayyip Erdogan:
Who knows if he’s hiding in some cave or not. We haven’t heard from him in a long time. The idea of focusing on one person really indicates to me people don’t understand the scope of the mission. Terror is bigger than one person. He’s just a person who’s been marginalized. … I don’t know where he is. I really just don’t spend that much time on him, to be honest with you.
How can we make this a question during the presidential debates? How does one go about ensuring that one of the moderators asks this very question?
So, the U.S. Is refusing to hand over a ‘terrorist mastermind’ after an incident that shocked a nation, and rocked a democratic government. That’s grounds for something a little more ‘robust’ than a drone or human death squad, more like grounds for an invasion (and Turkey doesn’t have to worry about the cost of such an invasion, the U.S. Regime has assets that can be used to finance the operation, and the installation of a democratic government in the U.S.)
;[email protected]
Oh, and the public can easily be brought on board, all one has to do is point to all the WMDs the regime has, ready to launch at a minutes notice, it’s deplorable human rights situation (the police so corrupted by racism that the population is now actively hunting police officers), it’s support for terrorists, and Apartheid…
This situation only exists as Terrorism is defined to be against the US or Israel and not against other countries.
The US created the “Terrorism” pathology. It’s the one economic industry not subject to relocation or allowed use by another country. We own the IP rights and their not being shared, except of course by Israel.
Agree on the “Terrorism” brand having us copyrights but what keeps it all going is the saudi muslim petrodollar enforcement by muslims, the israelis donot have jackpoopo in me oil. The saudis bomb Yemen, the equivalent challenge of bombing a kindergarten day school of their OWN brothers. What? Nobody noticed?
I venture that Israel’s real contribution to US political culture during the past half-century, by way of reciprocity for the US’s pretty much unconditional support of all its colonialist activities in the Middle East, has been, by way of retro-infection, the notion among so many Americans that they rank as a chosen few and are therefore entitled to do in this world what they fucking well want, i.e., as per the not so long ago Obama-instated doctrine of ‘American exceptionalism’. Btw, #JillNotHill
Where does the assassination of Chilean dissident Orlando Leteleir by Pinochet’s secrete police, in the heart of DC via a car bomb that could have killed American civilians, fall under the “Americans would never tolerate this” argument?
And reading up on the bombing, it did in fact kill an innocent American by the name of Ronni Moffitt. And yet Pinchoet continued to enjoy Washington’s support for his entire reign.
If Erdogan sent assassins to kill Gulen, I bet Turkey would get kicked out of NATO and we would expel their ambassador but would there be patriots out on every street demanding war and blood to avenge this guy? I doubt it.
Oh hell, the *Russians* have sent assassins after people in Europe. This stuff happens all the time, yet people somehow manage to forget about it and imagine if it ever really happened there’d be hell to pay. It’s like all the times the U.S. has accidentally dropped nukes on places and contaminated them and nobody today even remembers it happened.
“imagine if it ever really happened there’d be hell to pay.” Yeah its a complete fantasy that Russia assassinates people with impunity in Europe, just ask Alexander Litvinenko. Oh wait he’s dead because FSB agents put polonium in his tea.
Ghostly straw man alert: US drones killings are not murky secret assassinations. I believe what the writer is suggesting is not your stealthy assassination but for the Turkish government to openly self-declare clearance under international law to fly onto US sovereign territory and kill a U.S. person.
Um in pretty sure the author would describe drones as “murky secret assassinations.” They just happen to be a poorly kept secret (it’s a common rumor that the classified info on Hillary Clinton’s email server was about drones in Pakistan and nothing that a reader of the New York Times wouldn’t know about)
I’m sure you agree that there is a difference between these two scenarios:
1. Sneaking into someone’s house in disguise to murder a member of their family with the intention of never being caught and
2. Knocking on their door, showing them your license and announcing you have the legal right to enter their house at any time for the purpose of murdering one of their family you have decided is a bad person.
Scenario 1 is “murky secret assassination”. Lots of ideas along these lines were used to get rid of Fidel Castro http://mentalfloss.com/article/30010/10-ways-cia-tried-kill-castro. Plausible deniability always in the back pocket. And you’re perfectly right that a Turkish undercover operative might sneak into the US, assassinate his target, sneak out again and not cause Americans to unite in outrage beating the war drums. Most likely, they would never know who did it — or if it wasn’t just a heart attack while lifting weights.
Scenario 2 is the openly approved and operated US drone killing program. Obama even jokes about the power this gives him to murder unsuitable suitors of his daughters. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWKG6ZmgAX4 (I think what he thought was funny was that only silly people would be afraid of him deciding to murder someone who didn’t seriously deserve it! Ha ha ha!!)
If Turkey were to self-declare and exercise this same right to enter at will someone else’s sovereign air space, say USA, to “legally” kill any person on their naughty list, this would likely cause Americans to demand a military response against Turkey.
You presented a good argument that Scenario 1 assassinations are no big deal; therefore readers should dismiss Greenwald’s position that Scenario 2 assassinations are anything to get excited about. That’s why I called it a straw man argument.
Surely the best intercept piece I’ve ever read, and possibly one of the best pieces of journalism I’ve ever read… Super simple and so so effective.
I just read over at ICH that Gulen has extensive ties to the Clinton’s,first with charter schools in Ark.,and money to the Clinton Foundation.
Ah,the webs we weave.
Yeah, for sure. Vide:
dailycaller.com/2016/07/13/new-ties-emerge-between-clinton-and-mysterious-islamic-cleric/
Thanks…
Most Americans have no imagination when it comes to having what we do elsewhere, come back and bite us on the ass. I have asked several people who have no quibbles with our war crimes, how they would feel if a foreign country decided we harbored terrorists, and took what they thought was appropriate action, to include drones etc. Never get an answer to that. It would be very easy to make the case that we harbor terrorists. I have a feeling if something like this ever happened that Americans would start to really care about due process, extra-judicial killings, and the rule of law… all of a sudden, like.
Let’s say it’s the 80’s, and the IRA is still active in the UK, and Maggie has drones. How many bars in Boston and “wedding parties” would have been smoking holes?
Probably none, the UK could have pressured the US to do more to curb IRA recruiters/fundraisers from operating freely in Boston and elsewhere but for whatever reason they didn’t push the issue, at least publicly.
Plus if they wanted to I bet they could have successfully branded MI6 assassins prowling Southie Pubs as some kind of “James Bond Badasses” and the American public at large would have eaten it up.