When Khizr Khan stood up to speak at the Democratic National Convention last Thursday, his family story was not widely known. Neither he nor his wife was a figure of public prominence, nor had he spoken at any major political events in the past. But, waving a copy of the United States constitution, Khan addressed Trump in evocative terms that resonated across the country, asking the GOP candidate if he had “ever even read the U.S. constitution” and telling Trump that he had “sacrificed nothing, and no one.”
The sacrifice that Khan was referring to was that of his son, Humayun Khan, an Army captain who was killed while stationed in Iraq in 2004. In the days since the DNC ended, Khan’s speech has dominated public discussion about the election campaign. He has promised to continue speaking out until the Republican Party leadership repudiates Trump for his proposed ban on Muslim immigration to the United States.
The irony of Trump’s proposals about Muslims is that they partly mirror the Manichaean worldview of terrorist groups like the Islamic State. Both effectively carve the world into a binary of Muslims versus non-Muslims, finding no space for complex identities like the Khan family that encompass both Islam and the West.
A few days after Khan’s speech, ISIS released its own view on the controversy in its online magazine Dabiq. Under a picture of Humayun Khan’s grave at Arlington Cemetery, a caption read simply: “Beware of dying as an apostate.” According to the worldview of the Islamic State, Muslims of any denomination who do not accept its rule — let alone those who join groups like the U.S. military — are considered traitors. Not only have they forfeited their Muslim identity, they are considered contemptible enough for their deaths to be mocked and celebrated.
But people like the Khans are not only loathed by Muslim extremists. Since Khizr Khan’s speech, Trump has made incendiary comments about his wife, while far-right media outlets and Trump campaign surrogates have begun publicly spreading dark conspiracies about Khizr’s alleged ties to the Muslim Brotherhood and other seditious foreign organizations.
The abysmal lack of evidence for these claims has been no barrier. The message this sends is that regardless of the grave sacrifices the Khan family has made for America, their foreignness will remain intact.
In this way, the messages of the Islamic State and America’s populist right reinforce each other. The Khans are “apostates” from Islam in the eyes of ISIS, but they are also not truly American in the eyes of a large political movement that has coalesced around the candidacy of Trump. Khizr Khan’s sacrifice, losing a son in an American war, has not been enough to inure him from charges of disloyalty. In a black and white world, he and his family fit in nowhere.
Following the controversy over Trump’s comments, the Republican Party leadership issued tepid statements reaffirming its support for military service members and opposition to religious tests in politics. But to date, few have taken any meaningful steps toward disavowing Trump’s candidacy over his rhetoric. Trump’s proposal to ban Muslims from the United States, which he recently claimed to have “expanded,” registers support from a near-majority of Americans according to recent polling.
While Khizr Khan’s DNC speech was inspiring, the abstract ideals he invoked so passionately seem almost quaint in front of these brute facts. Trump’s candidacy has proven that the power of mass politics, mixed with crude ethnic appeals, can challenge the traditional idea of a citizenship based on rights and responsibilities.
In the long term, this revelation could have dire consequences for political culture in the United States.
In the 20th century, small revolutionary movements frequently sought ways to upend the existing social order by “heightening the contradictions” within their society. The urgent question today is whether there is a contradiction between being a Muslim and an American, or a Muslim and a European. The apocalyptic grand strategy of the Islamic State, a desperate insurgent group operating over parts of Syria and Iraq, hinges on Muslims and non-Muslims around the world deciding that there is such a contradiction inherent in their coexistence, forcing them to separate from each other by whatever means necessary.
America has in large part managed to incorporate people from all types of backgrounds in its institutions, many of whom have come to identify with them strongly. The danger of Trump’s candidacy is that it has articulated a popular vision of America that has no place for people like these, whose identities are complex and overlapping. In his world, the very existence of someone like Khizr Khan appears to be a contradiction.
It’s still difficult to imagine such a vision resonating with a majority of voting Americans. But if it does succeed, Trump will have won an achievement that undermines national unity over the long term. There will be less space for people like Khizr, Humayun, and Ghazala Khan, or others who represent a diverse yet coherent vision of the United States. Americans will instead be divided into opposing camps based on their ethnic or religious identity: a catastrophic victory.
Top photo: Maj. Gen. Joseph F. Peterson presents the Purple Heart to Khizr Khan, the father of U.S. Army Capt. Humayun Khan of Bristow, Va., during his funeral on June 16, 2004.


Is there more to this Khan story?
http://www.whatdoesitmean.com/index2084.htm
I think there’s much less. No, somehow I don’t buy the theory that Khan enabled 9/11, the Boston bombing and San Bernardino.
What Khan’s father should have told the Democratic Convention:
“Make no mistake, my son’s life was wasted in a reckless war of aggression aimed at capturing control of Iraqi oilfields. According to long-standing international law, this was a crime against peace, the very crime that Hitler’s followers were tried and convicted for at Nuremberg. The stories told before the war, about Saddam’s ties to 9/11 and his program of weapons of mass destruction, were all deliberate lies foisted on the American public by the Bush Administration and a compliant corporate press.”
“Nevertheless, a limited military response to the 9/11 attacks was justified – but who should have been targeted? The money came from Saudi Arabia, the organization behind it was headquartered in Afghanistan, and the hijackers prepared their attacks in Germany and the United States. Did the Saudis cooperate with the investigation into 9/11 financing? Not really. Should they have been declared state sponsors of terrorism and subjected to sanctions? Yes, they should have. And the only reason to go into Afghanistan would be to capture Osama bin Laden, a task that the CIA and U.S. military failed to accomplish – perhaps deliberately so? But Iraq? 9/11 is no justification for Iraq.”
“Nevertheless, my son viewed himself as a loyal American, someone willing to give up his life to protect other American people. But that’s not why he was sent to war in Iraq, was it? The American people were not at risk – but Bush, and his allies in Congress and the media, wanted to go to war to seize control of Iraqi oil and expand American military power in the Middle East. This is not why my son signed up with the military!”
“My son, like so many other members of the military, was betrayed by the neoconservatives who hungered for foreign conquests. Their lives were poured out on the sand, like so much water, so that wealthy American corporations could acquire even more wealth. Thousands of dead soldiers, hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqi civilians – what a waste of life, all in the name of greed. This is a great crime, a stain on the history of this country, that will never be effaced.”
“This is why I must urge all of you to never vote for or support anyone who pushed for this disastrous illegal war, regardless of what party they belong to. They betrayed the loyal patriots who joined the American military with good intentions. This is why I am backing Bernie Sanders, and also why I will never vote for Hillary Clinton. This is what my son would have told you, had he lived. This is the truth that the corrupt politicians who run this government do not want to hear.”
Khan is not the innocent guy you think he is. He was not randomly chosen by Hilary. Do more research.
Someone also needs to ask Hillary Clinton if she and her former boss Obama have read the US Constitution, which they violated by the extra-judicial drone killing of US citizen Anwar Al-Awlaki in what appears to have been a 9/11 clean-up op.
Its weird that CNN International thinks its OK to mock Trump for eating his fried chicken with a knife and fork.
The Hillary thing is well endowed. CNN gets paid for its antics, so it makes business sense to keep invoicing Hillary.
@Sufi Muslim-“We simply do not know for sure the inner states and intentions of others, especially those who have passed on.
We usually pass a judgment on others based on their outer actions, and sometimes our judgment reflects our own inner state.”
Above was your response to my comment below.
My comment-“Why does Mr Khan not see he is a pawn? When his son decided to stop bullets with himself, where did his parents, Mr & Mrs Khan stand in that decision? The basis, justification for this country to send people into another country to stop bullets was completely false. Why was Mr Khan more upset with Trump than with Hillary and the Government?”
Help me understand your response. If you apply the response to my comment it doesn’t address any of it. Were you hitting the opium again?
Nobody should help an asshole like you understand anything when you so clearly won’t put in the most basic mental effort.
@Vic Perry-I don’t understand what you mean?
“Were you hitting the opium again” —- your uncalled-for, asshole comment. Don’t take up literary criticism either.
I still don’t understand what you mean because how can you dictate what I do and don’t do?
People perceive things based on their levels of awareness and consciousness.
It is possible that he does not see that he is a pawn, while you see it as such, simply because of his own personal and unique inner state and awareness.
It is also possible that his intention was not to be used as a pawn.
I am talking about a person’s consciousness at the deepest levels, which I am claiming we are not fully aware of. And I am suggesting that we mustn’t pass judgment on other people’s motives and intentions and inner states. The judgment may be on a person’s outer actions.
You may disagree and claim that you are fully aware of other people’s inner states and intentions, but I am not.
We simply do not know. And it is possible that they perceived it as something noble and necessary.
This is what I mean by a person’s inner state and intention. It is possible that while one can pass a judgment on the whole Iraq war and call it a mistake, or a crime, that individual soldiers and their parents and family members perceived it as their duty and something noble, based on their own understanding of the situation.
Many people agree with you.
But I have not been talking about a collective decision and action. I have been talking about Humayun Khan’s personal inner state and intention and those of his parents, in response to those who were questioning it and passing judgment on their inner motives and intentions.
All I have been saying is that we just do not know another person’s inner state and intention.
A collective action taken by those who are in position of power and control may be wrong and false overall. But within that collective action, there could be individual actions that are noble, and it is possible that individuals who participate in that collective action may be doing it with good and noble intentions, and may carry out selfless acts, as Capt. Humayun carried out as his final act on earth.
Do you now see how what you stated connects with my initial response?
Thank you.
@Sufi Muslim-Mr Khans son could have had the Nobelist intent for going to war and stopping bullets with himself. That possible reality makes Mr and Mrs Khan appear more like a tool to validate the unjust war their son died in. But the Khans criticize Trump on a nationally televised event that is celebrating the people and their agenda that is responsible for the death of their son, thousands of other Americans and countless foreign civilians of which are almost all Muslim? Of all things to criticize they criticize Trump? That speech stripped all nobility from their sons death if his intent was noble. I find it hard to accept their sons intent was noble when everyone knew the war was a fraud from the beginning. That doesn’t mean his intent wasn’t noble, it’s much less likely.
Additionally, there is an absence of Muslims publicly criticizing the radical mind set and their violent practices of other Muslims? Persians, of whom I have great respect, explained to me that Iran had its own religion but followers of Islam used violence for the method of religious and cultural conversion. What is the religion of Persia now? It appears that its time for an Islamic reformation?
The demonstrations against the Vietnam War were disrespectful to the returning soldiers. A large number of those veterans had no choice in the matter. Current veterans had a choice. Knowing the reasons for going to war are fraudulent but still freely participating in it doesn’t make them heroe’s.
I’m very disappointed. Weak article…
This memo authorizing a drone strike Saturday night 8-6-2016 @ 41*31.6’N, 070*24.3’W has been leaked today.
“Lawfulness of a Lethal Operation Directed Against a U.S. Citizen who is a Senior Operational Leader ” in which the Obama Administration concludes that the U.S. government can order the killing of American citizens if they are believed to be “senior operational leaders” or “an associated force” – even if there is no intelligence indicating they are engaged in an active plot to attack the U.S. However any such targeted killing operation by the United States would have to comply with the four fundamental law-of-war principles governing the use of force which are necessity, distinction, proportionality and humanity – i.e., the avoidance of unnessary suffering. The memo also discusses why targeted killings would not be a war crime or violate a U.S. executive order banning assassinations:
“A lawful killing in self-defense is not an assassination. In the Department’s view, a lethal operation conducted against a U.S. citizen whose conduct poses an imminent threat of violent attack against the United States would be a legitimate act of national self-defense that would not violate the assassination ban. Similarly, the use of lethal force, consistent with the laws of war, against an individual who is a legitimate military target would be lawful and would not violate the assassination ban.”
Do you have a link for this leaked memo?
Wrong thread.
Coordinates seem to indicate on my nautical charts the location of a Trump fundraiser at the Koch compound on Osterville Grand Island.
http://www.masslive.com/politics/index.ssf/2016/08/billionaire_businessman_bill_k.html
The coordinates indicate the target could be a boat. Please plug your leaks or the boat may capsize before it is droned.
General, I plot 41 degrees 36.6 minutes North lattitude, 70 degrees 24.3 minutes West longitude using the World Geodetic System 1984 on the Mercator Projection chart 13237 to be ground zero of the planned Drone strike.
First click this link, the zoom out.
General I suspect you are used to a different coordinate system in the army but if you look closely at the coordinates on the link you provided they are using degrees, minutes and seconds. The leaked memo located the planned target in degrees, minutes and tenths of a minute. Dry land I assure you.
Oh I see by using the Pentagon’s Selective Availability to throw off the GPS accuracy by five nautical miles. Changing 41 36.6 N 70 24.3W to 41 31.6N 70 24.3W. Trump and Koch have outsmarted Obama. The drone will hit the offshore windfarm test tower instead.
What Trump needs to do is give an entire 45 minute speech addressing only the Khan family issue. He should write this speech very carefully, make his points and then ignore the Khans. In this speech, he should clarify that he considers the dead soldier a hero, but that he is raising the issue of radical Islam, and Khizr Khan’s DNC attack on Trump was unjustified.
I am truly not sure if this is tongue in cheek…
Not really. I would seriously advocate this to Trump as a campaign adviser provided he could pull off such a speech. And he must write it down and stick to the script on this speech. Trump is the underdog in this fight. Without in any way supporting his views on banning Muslims etc., I still think the Trump war on Islam is a lesser evil than the Clinton/Bush/Obama/CIA war on Islam.
Limiting immigration to the US on terror grounds is less evil than invading, bombing and destroying 10 or more Muslim countries (I include past and future targets) on false pretexts.
Also limits on immigration might not really violate the US Constitution if done on the ground of terror.
Khizr Khan has insulted Trump a lot. So Trump needs to reply to his points but without attacking the Khans personally, After acknowledging their contribution , Trump must point out where Khizr Khan was wrong in criticizing Trump. He needs to take up the upper ground here.
Ah…advice to a psychopath from a sociopath.
I really do consider Hillary the greater danger to world peace, to Islam and to the US as compared to Trump.
So this would only be tactical advice to Trump, and in no way an endorsement of any of his views which I have not looked at closely enough.
But I have seen what Bush, Clinton, Bush, Obama-Clinton have done and I know what Hillary will do. Plus Hillary is also corrupt.
Trump will bring about a re-evaluation of US foreign policy which is a good thing.
Yep.
What a load of creeps this article has shaken out of the woods.
And to you Vic Perry – I should just ignore this personal attack. But what about my comment makes me a creep?
I should just ignore this personal attack. But what about my comment makes me a sociopath?
You gloss over Trump’s hostility to Muslims. You counsel him to gloss over his repugnance. You have no conscience whatsoever.
Now, if you learned that from your parents, like Donald Trump, then you would be a psychopath, not a sociopath.
And, “personal attack”? You are also a professional victim.
I am sorry but you are offensive. I did not gloss over Trump’s comment. I said the reaction to it was overblown. I am more concerned about Hillary’s demonstrated hostility towards Muslims, one instance of which is her wholehearted support of the apartheid State of Israel, another instance her vote for the Iraq war, a third instance her war in Libya and her obscene gloating over a man lynched to death. And there are more. She helped create ISIS.
I think if you ignore this you have no conscience. You support a war-mongering, fear-mongering, corrupt candidate Hillary Clinton.
You seem to be a Hillary supporter who lashes out at any one who criticizes her. And how dare you get my parents into this comment. You know absolutely nothing about me. Your comments where you first call me a sociopath and then a psychopath seem personally motivated and are an uncalled for personal attack.
And what do you mean by “You are also a professional victim”? Don’t really bother replying because I have better things to focus my energies on than on your insults.
And all I said was that Trump should respond to Khizr Khan’s criticism of Trump. Isn’t that how a democracy works?
What will Trump blabbering away for 45 minutes accomplish? What would be the purpose of such a foolish decision? Another full week of coverage on the matter and overtime pay for the fact checkers of the world.
Your idea is pointless. But prove me wrong; give us a draft of this 45-minute rant. I’ll get you started!
TRUMP 45-MINUTE SPEECH INTRO
Friends and fellow Americans: I have endured a lot of unfair criticism lately. This “Khan man” (pause for applause) viciously attacked me. All I did was respond and it ends up being a four-day story. Its been very unfair. I said nice things about the son and I feel that very strongly, but, no, I don’t regret anything. Please remember, I was the victim to the “Wrath of Khan” (extended pause for standing ovation). I will present the facts plainly and honestly because we cannot afford to be so politically correct anymore. Khan – who may or may not be an ISIS sympathizer, you tell me, people are talking about it – has never met me, has no right to stand in front of millions of people and claim I have never read the Constitution. I’ve read every chapter: Chapter 1, Chapter 2, Chapter 12. (Pulls out Cleon Skousen annotated constitution out of breast pocket). Look at this pocket constitution, beautiful! I know it inside-out, each night I “Khan” hardly wait to read it (pause for crowd high fiving). Remember, my IQ is one of the highest — and you all know it! Please don’t feel so stupid or insecure; it’s not your fault.
Only 44 minutes to go.
That was hilarious, you got the way Trump speaks.
But I think this is one speech he should get someone else to write for him.
Khizr Khan is a Muslim, I believe. Donald Trump has called for banning all Muslims from entering the US, even if it is to visit family or on vacation. Khizr Khan and every US Muslim have a right to “attack” Trump all they want as far as I’m concerned.
It looks like this quisling is a useful idiot for the harpy’s war crime campaign. Why did he take his website down? I also understand he did the Clintons’ taxes and benefits directly from the immigration he espouses. It would not be such a big deal except for what Clinton represents: war crimes and intervention favoring terrorist elements. That is the meat of the critique and this guy is misdirection whose value will diminish as more of his record leaks out.
Wrong on so many levels. We wouldn’t have heard from Khan if The Drump hadn’t, as part of his desperate manure-spreading, been so bigoted toward Muslims…as opposed to KKKristians.
…and your bigotry is showing by the way. You seem to lump all white-mutt folks into the KKK….and kristians…whatever that is.
It would be better to get your point across without doing the same thing…
Yes, if we can just leak more information on why a Gold Star veteran who died for his country was still a bad guy because his family shamed Trump’s vile bigotry, then we can continue to blindly hate all 3.3 million Muslims living in the USA, including the 5000+ that serve in the US military that rightwingers once pretended they love!
Oh, if we can just “leak out” more “meat” on why being bigoted against Humayun Khan and pretend that Muslims in the USA contribute nothing, then we will WIN!!!
He provided a satisfactory explanation of why his website was taken down on CNN last night. He also addressed other incorrect charges made against him by some Trump supporters.
He explained that his website was getting too much traffic and the website host felt that it’d be hacked. So they are the ones who advised Khan that the host should take it down until the current storm passed.
By the way, he is no Joe — The Plumber.
Along with G.W. Bush Hillary Clinton was for and actually cast a vote to invade Iraq. Mr Kahn’s son might still be alive today if Trump was president at the time .
Iraq and Libya? Hillarys fault
Yeah vote Hillary because Sarah slverman and some Muslim who made you weep .
Donald Trump is yuuugely flawed but it’ll be a cold day in hell before I vote for that criminal Clinton .
If the election is rigged, then Trump could possibly be in on the rigging. Is he supposed to lose? Is he deliberately committing election suicide so that Hillary can win essentially unopposed.
I have felt this way since the very beginning and truthfully for many years. I knew it about Sanders and I feel that this whole charade if for the benefit of the people thinking they have a Democracy. When in truth that Democracy has been hijacked for a long time. These criminals say what the people want to hear disregarding their actions. But those who are here are onto the game…and our comments are helpful to warn anyone visiting. Thank you. (I don’t vote knowing this and for personal reasons, however; if there is a chance for an overwhelming turning of the tides then the Green Party hopefully would have the power to end AIPAC controlled Congress and POTUS, end the elites and their lobbying, end the military complex, and end capitalism.)
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/30/world/americas/canada-rcmp-bc-bomb-plot.html?_r=0
Canada Judge Rules That Police Entrapped Couple in Bomb Plot
The FBI does this all the time – FBI assisted terror plots
Actually Trump did not insult Humayun Khan. He called him a hero. Trump only made a silly comment wondering why the mother did not speak while the father spoke. Now that has been blown all out of proportion.
Trump is of course pandering to fear-mongering among ordinary Americans about radical Islam to win votes. But Trump is not responsible for this fear or for radical Islam.
Radical Islam owes its rise to the CIA and flawed US policy. Fear in America about radical Islam is also a result of CIA policies and in particular false flag attacks and the strange CIA creation ISIS. Now for all of this, you can blame the neocons and the neo-liberals, and the Bushes, the Clintons and Obama.
But why blame Trump?
Here is some more dirt that should never have been dug up.
To quote:
Pakis are generally very good folks, but on occasion you may find them quite mischievous. This fellow has genuine fears that his activities involving importing tons of Pakis here will get disrupted.
The American Military has been catering to the Pakis for a long time…I am a witness to it. They have been in bed together well before the early 80’s. So it’s not just the Pakis….Anytime there is a cozy relationship with the US Govt is because they have become the treacherous arm extending to the ME. American Military has been training them, arming them, calling the shots. Also, by extension it is part of the Yinnon Plan of Israel.
True, they helped us destabilize the USSR. Very nice folks, like I always say.
Now they don’t want to eradicate all the terrorists because they can fool us into supplying them arms that they say they need to fight terrorists.
“Pakis (sic) are generally very good folks, but on occasion you may find them quite mischievous.”
Don’t forget that they’re rapists & murderers and some, I assume, are good people because making blanket statements against 183 million people (and calling them “Pakis”) doesn’t make you a vile, reprehensible bigot like Trump – you’re just being a good Murkan!
You need to become more tolerant towards folks from other countries.
Please see this video. This doctor has proudly adopted the al Paki word in his name to indicate his heritage, and I am sure there are thousands of others like him.
I personally think the people of Pakistan are very proud to be referred to by the name of their country. If you think it is slander then it’s your mistake. You can start by questioning the doctor first.
I googled the word, “Paki”, and it appears that this term can be derogatory.
From https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Paki
May be, things have changed, or are different, in the U.S.
Yes, in the UK the word Paki is a slur like the N word.
I’m quite sure in Pakistan the “Brit” word is a bigger slur. More than that, it can be quite dangerous. All these problems come from intolerance that people have unfortunately developed and are thankfully quite localized.
The N word was never a slur before. MLK Jr often used it in his speeches. There are at least two African countries I can think of (Niger and Nigeria) from where the word could have been derived, and which may have caused ambiguity of national identity. That may be the real reason for the word becoming a slur, just like a Japanese would never like to be called Chinese despite similar features. But the word Paki is quite unambiguous.
Obviously, anybody who is not from Pakistan will take extreme offense if he is called a Paki. That’s very understandable. But those from Pakistan should be proud. Am I missing something here?
An explanation – After the N-word, the P-word – http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/6740445.stm
This article I see has been written by an Indian Hindoo, and I can very well imagine that he would be absolutely livid and murderous if he is called a Paki because they are forever fighting. You have to be sensitive to people’s sentiments. You just can’t call a lion a chimp without being eaten up. In the lion parlance the C word would be a taboo, but chimpanzees would go bananas to hear the same.
The native people here are quite happy to be called Red Indians. They are neither red nor Indians. I know the history, but I never could figure out their acceptance of the term. Maybe the exception proves the law – people are proud of the national heritage and anything that points to a different heritage is considered a slur.
I don’t know.
Did you ask your Pakistani neighbor if the term, Paki, is generally offensive to the Pakistanis?
Of course, that is what I call him. His son is Pacman.
Trump is crazy … and you’re a very bad man: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN29X2HCKpU
“Actually Trump did not insult Humayun Khan. He called him a hero. Trump only made a silly comment wondering why the mother did not speak while the father spoke. Now that has been blown all out of proportion.”
Then why did Trump’s “wondering” become a talking point for his supporters?
That’s how he expresses anti-[insert the name of a group here] sentiments, which then trickle down to his ordinary supporters.
His “wondering” about why Khan’s wife did not speak resonated with many of his supporters — CNN interviewed a few. These supporters got Trump’s insinuation quite clearly, that she did not speak because she wasn’t allowed due to her religion and culture — an utter non-sense.
This is how sentiments against a minority are spread.
So Trumps “wonderings” have profound negative effects, and the Muslims are concerned.
That is the point. So what if he did wonder. That’s not such a great character flaw that makes him unfit to be POTUS.
I am sure if you interviewed Hillary about the position of women in Muslim communities, she wouldn’t say they have equal rights or equality of status.
At the most, Trump’s wondering was silly. He was looking for something negative to say about the Khans who had attacked him, and this wondering was all he could manage. So what?
His “wonderings” do trickle down to his supporters and cause a large segment of non-Muslims to develop incorrect negative feelings and stereotypes toward the Muslims.
There have been a lot of his “wonderings”.
Western Muslim women, and a lot of non-Western Muslim women are doing just fine. There are segments of Muslims who do not treat women well, and there are laws in some Muslim countries that do not favor the Muslim women.
Point taken. It was silly of Trump. And he has got the blow-back. But this is not the issue on which this election should turn.
Hillary’s record against Islam is worse than anything Trump has fantasized about.
For the record, a Muslim cannot take up arms against and slaughter another Muslims. War in Islam is only for the sake of God. Not for tribe, nationality, race, or a flag. Captain Khan would be considered an apostate for fighting and kill for the American government. Folks may not like this fact, but it is the truth.
It is similar to the Snowden case. As an American, he is accused of “betraying” his country. Captain Khan, as a Muslim, would be accused of betraying Islam and his Creator.
This is a “No True Scotsman” fallacy, folks. The Pope who sent a children’s crusade was Christian. Sometimes Muslims kill each other. Some dictators were atheists. Objective observers are not going to adopt a group of people’s belief system in determining who belongs to that group. That would be ridiculous.
What if there are those who call themselves Muslims and are carrying out evil?
Have you ever heard of the Kharijites?
If there are cancerous elements within the world of Islam, pretending to be Muslims and wreaking havoc on earth, what are other Muslims to do if warfare against them is the only viable option left to deal with them?
Things are not as black and white in life as some think.
Donald Trump has said he would drone the families of the terrorists. I basically have only one problem with that. If he drones the wives of Osama bin Laden, we will never get to interview them. Therefore, I would request Muratza to please expeditiously interview one of them, probably the one in Yemen, so that we have a clearer picture what Crooked was pensively observing in the Situation Room that day that qualifies her for future such missions, according to our beacon of false hope and change.
This particular article is very mischievous and intended to mislead people, vilify an honest person and hurt a grieving family. But I will enjoy the interview with Ms Amal bin Laden.
Yeah, we must hear Ms Amal bin Laden speak.
“Donald Trump has said he would drone the families of the terrorists. I basically have only one problem with that.”
Of course. There’s only one (or less) problems with that……
Let me guess – you think ISIS is pure evil and you cannot fathom what could make people that ethically devoid, sub-human, and unworthy of life?
Yes, of course, without the shadow of any doubt, I know ISIS is most evil. Don’t you? If not, it’s a big problem.
Democratic party’s official line: Be very scared, because there are terrorists everywhere and we need to go fight wars so that we can keep money flowing to the arms manufacturers, and we’re happy to use Islamophobia to further those aims, but when Trump does it it’s wrong.
It took a few days, but the other side of the story is coming out. I don’t call it truth, for likely both sides are reaching.
http://www.breitbart.com/2016-presidential-race/2016/08/02/everything-need-know-donald-trump-khizr-khan/
Why wasn’t Khan berating Hellary for getting his son in to a very stupid war?
It is interesting that it is mainly Breitbart reporting this so called “news”….hmmmm
Yes, if you want to escape your echo chamber, you have to venture out into the news world outside the MSM.
The MSM is totally in the tank for Hellary to the point of fabricating out right propaganda. So search and evaluate for what it is.
Breitbart?
http://www.whatisdeepfried.com/2012/03/05/you-oh-god/
The Clintons have killed off more soldiers than dumb statements Trump has made over the years and that says a lot.
Yes I keep hearing this. Luckily I don’t have to support either Clinton or Trump, so your point is pointless.
How is it pointless to accentuate the fact that Clinton plays on being a big, open-minded democrat, despite a history of war-mongering and corruption, while Donald Trump is being deliberately turned into a bogeyman because of his purposely radical stances? Trump has been a democrat for a long time; in previous interviews done a long time ago, he tried to espouse relatively open-minded views, even if they came out as very wrong and bigoted because — hey, he’s a businessman, and this is what businessmen are like.
The media tries to put more weight on words than on deeds. When it comes to deeds, Hillary is obviously more of an example of a Hitler reincarnate than Trump. When it comes to words, it’s the other way around. Ultimately, the whole thing — these committees, campaigns and conventions — are part of a very expensive farce to dissuade the public from latching onto social-democratic movements and to divide the country. Capitalists are now deadly afraid that the workers, farmers and unemployed prolets of any gender, skin color or religion will unite under the banner of true democracy and a non-profit-driven society, and drive capitalism out of America once and for all. For this reason bankers and royal families are very adamant about rigging elections and making these performances for the benefit of the public. It’s also important in maintaining their vast NATO army. Fewer and fewer Americans and Europeans want to join the army; this is a huge problem for these capitalistic racketeers. Their best bet is to drum up nationalistic fervor (like Khan here and the recent pocket constitution karfuffle), rile up hysteria about migration and islamism, and hope that the greater of two evils (Clinton and a third world war involving Russia, Iran, China and North Korea, for which Obama had already laid the seeds for Hitlery, courtesy of Rothschilds, the Saudis and other big banks) is perceived as the lesser of two evils (compared to Trump and his physically impossible scheme of building a second Wall of China along the US-Mexican border, and the billion dollar muslim deportation program).
It’s the equivalent of trying to make an actual serial killer look honest and just in comparison to a shill who is hired by the serial killer to rave about homicidal fantasies he hasn’t even committed yet, thereby distracting the public from the actual crimes.
Of course neither Trump nor Hillary are heroes. They’re barely human beings. But the real troubling implications are what these political shills stand for and what, under their name, is going to be unleashed onto the world.
Well said…thank you.
There’s pictures around of the Trumps and the Clintons schmoozing, so how much did Trump care how many soldiers died under the Clintons?
The Khans used their son’s death for the purpose of political pandering.
As for whether Muslims “belong” in the West? We are talking about a group of immigrants who have brought terror, rape, molestation and crime to the European continent in a shockingly brief amount of time. The only reason we do not have these problems in the US is that we are only 1-2% Muslim here.
I am no fan of Trump, but I am not having my country turned into a cesspool of Muslim religious fanatics and criminals.
The Khans told an important truth. Repudiating the hateful bile spewed by Donald Trump and many of his supporters is extremely valuable. I won’t vote for Hillary Clinton but I greatly value Mr. Khan’s speech. Moreover, it isn’t up to you to decide how the Khan’s “use” the death of their son. That belongs entirely to them.
But you are a vile bigot, so it’s not surprising that you do grasp any of that.
Children don’t “belong” to their parents. What belongs to them is what belongs to everyone: the right to speak freely. Not that any government respects that right.
Speaking of which, why can’t teenagers vote? Tyranny of old fucks, this is.
tell yer mama JDawg
“hey mom I am like totally independent and how dare you talk about me….”
The Khans can use their son’s death any way they see fit. They decided to use it politically and now they are crying foul. We live with the consequences of our choices.
Bigotry is allowing massive numbers of unvetted people into a country and allowing widespread abuse of the indigenous people. That is what has happened in Europe. The victims have been particularly the most vulnerable in any society: women, children and the elderly. I would not wish what is happening on my worst enemy.
But you don’t care about widespread rape, molestation and criminal violence because you are too busy defending the rights of migrant men between the ages of 18-35 who have borne their misogynist heritage to the shores of Europe. I wish we could invite some unvetted Syrian or North African men to live in your house and see what happens.
I can assure you that Muslims do no want to make this great nation any more of a cesspool than it already is. Muslims did not create the moral decline, nor take away basic freedoms. It is the liberal politicos and neo-cons who have taken this nation into the gutter. You won’t stand up against them, but you want to continue to fight 1.6 billion Muslims. Think.
Muslims were first brought to America as slaves and may have built things, like the White House.
American Muslims are generally highly educated, well integrated and contribute to the progress of their country in all walks of life.
They are not a monolithic group.
You are stereotyping them and are spreading irrational fear of them.
So you are merely reflecting the state of your own inner self, which seems to be full of irrational fear, prejudice, hatred and ignorance.
From all the reports I have read, Capt. Khan’s final act was one of selflessness (higher consciousness). His unit has nothing but good things to say about him, and the army has named something (I’m forgetting what) “Humayun”.
You are ignoring the good and noble things the Muslims do quite a bit in the West.
The Khans are a grieving family. While I feel that it was not appropriate for them to appear in the convention of a political party as their appearance would’ve been politicized, it is not them who are politically exploiting their son’s death.
Have some empathy on them and cut them some slack.
Had Trump taken the high road and issued a short statement saying something like: While we have political differences, I am sympathetic to them as grieving parents and consider their son a hero, and kept quiet about them and focused on his opponent, the Khan story would’ve died down quickly.
@ Sufi
Briefly, I thought the gist of Mr. Khan’s criticism/remarks at the DNC a bit mis-placed. From a Trump supporter in the Gruan this morning:
Like all things Trump, that’s an over-simplification but I mostly agree with the general sentiment.
*it breaks my heart people, especially U.S. citizens, can be so cold wrt the poor pitiful people fleeing the the carnage in the Mid-East. .. I have a farm in Appalachia.
Khan’s outburst at Trump might have been a culmination of the cumulative frustration and anger against him built up over the past year because of the things he has said about the Muslims, women, the Hispanics, some of the veterans, and others, and his other shenanigans.
I would have advised him not to give that speech at the convention of a political party.
However, because of that, a lot of people around the world have now come to know the final selfless act of his son.
And his son’s story (which is not limited to his final selfless act — selfless, as interpreted and described by his unit — but other stories of his kindness have now emerged) has managed to challenge the sentiments of those who find the term, “American Muslim” an oxymoron.
” I am not having my country turned into a cesspool of Muslim religious fanatics and criminals.”
The United States is a melting pot of all races and religions. If you regret that your family emigrated to the Unites States then RETURN to your family’s native country. This isn’t complicated. Now that the white flight from Europe to the USA has ended doesn’t mean we’re going to stop immigration.
By the end of the 21st century the USA will more than likely be predominantly brown-skinned people; which means we will return to whites being in the minority as it was 400 years ago.
Don’t you want to Make America Great Again?
“regardless of the grave sacrifices the Khan family has made for America”
“In a black and white world, he and his family fit in nowhere”.
“Americans will instead be divided into opposing camps”
Here is the camp where Americans of all ethnicities and Muslims in foreign lands can be joined together:
It is a camp that comprehends that the precious loss of both American soldiers and Muslim lives throughout the world has not been for “America”.
It is the camp that comprehends that the death, suffering and destruction of a war based on the far reaches of imagination caused by the propaganda of terror only serves to further empower and enrich the “absolutes of power” gone mad.
The demoncrats assume the militarist position.
Who da Nazis?
Neither Hillary nor Trump can really be typified as fascist. The United States is not very nationalist, and is not held together by any particular shared culture or racial group. Trump is charismatic, and Hillary is a little bit militaristic, but for the most part accusations of fascism in this election are much more about rhetoric than reality.
This is not too say all is well. In terms of power, it is entirely possible for an American President to become a totalitarian dictator if they have the desire and a good amount of popularity for enough time to get away with it. The Constitution is almost powerless today, only enforced when we feel like it. This erosion of constitutionally-guaranteed civil liberties kind of started with the prohibition of “obscene” speech, for example descriptions of birth control methods like condoms. God forbid that a woman should have control over her own reproductive system rather than her husband!
Obomba says Trump unprepared and unfit to be POTUS.
Are they running scared or what?Isn’t it up to the American people to make that decision?
And coming from the most unprepared POTUS in history,chutzpah can only describe it.
There are terrorists coming out of the woodwork,Iraq and Afghanistan are still in misery,Libya his idea,is another hellhole,Syria another,Ukraine another,Africa going to the dogs,Egypt led by worse leaders than before,Russian relations in the toilet,propaganda rife throughout the land,defending his legacy of shite like armourall,his only possible(did it happen?-no proof)achievement the assassination of the guy accused of 9-11,a possible fall guy for the Saudis and others,but absolutely irrelevant to the task of stopping terror,which of course now happens fairly regularly right here at home,but hey he’s the greatest,right?
F*ck him.What an elitist pos.
I’ve tried to post part two of Alistair Cook’s essay (part one is linked to below), but the Intercept hasn’t accepted it for some reason. It’s entitled “Middle East Time Bomb: The Real Aim of ISIS Is to Replace the Saud Family as the New Emirs of Arabia,” and a link to it can be found at the base of part one.
And fuck you, Intercept.
Oh, it just appeared. I’ve had five posts refused already on other articles and I thought it was another, so the “fuck you” is only for the other times.
oh dear, succumbing to conspiracy theory again
Well you should take an aspirin and lie down, then.
Did they post your comments yet, or are they so powerful that The Man just can’t handle it and shut them down, lest they get out and wreak havoc on an unsuspecting world?
No, the comments have never posted. One was simply to Jill Stein’s website, and Cornel West’s remarks.
The Intercept can seem indistinguishable from the establishment (The Man) occasionally, and you’d have to have a very charitable view of it to conclude otherwise.
He’s a Hell Bitch booster ,expect he has no clue as to reality,or he is evil too.
Remember the little kid in Time Bandits and the toaster oven?She is the shite in the toaster oven.Mom,Dad,don’t touch it,it’s evil!
dahoit knows very well that I do not support Hillary Clinton…. I doubt Maisie will be impressed, dahoit, since Maisie also doesn’t support Hillary Clinton.
Also, except in dahoit world, The Intercept does not support Hillary Clinton.
I doubt Maisie even thought for a second that The Intercept Was Doing The Hell Bitch’s Dirty Bidding.
dahoit is generally too big of a moron to respond to but here he is trying pathetically to win an argument he can’t possible win….
Incidentally, dahoit’s noxious bigotry can be found all over this site.
dahoit is going to have to work harder to be a victim of “hell bitch” censorship, apparently. I doubt Maisie wants your support, dahoit, given that you are a creep and things you endorse here (I wouldn’t know if The Intercept didn’t print your awful remarks) are creepier than you probably even are yourself, since you are trying to be big man on campus and all.
any “thoughts” about this censorship stuff as it applies to you, dahoit?
I think Maz Hussain might support her in the sense that he’s totally horrified at the thought of POTUS Trump. His tweets would strongly suggest that.
There’s a split among progressives (real ones, not the Clinton fanatics) about the morality of for whom to vote in the general election. Personally, I find it morally ambiguous but will not myself vote for Hillary Clinton.
I had three attempts at comment posts yesterday which didn’t take. They each and all were there by sometime or another today or this afternoon.
While there might have been times when someone’s comment was purposely blocked or whatever, I wouldn’t know if that has ever if hardly ever happened, I’m certain that wasn’t the case with mine, and extremely doubtful that is was the case with yours. For reasons that I have no idea about, The Intercept just has comment sticking problem at various and unpredictable times. It is, of course, frustrating whenever it happens and for whatever reason it happens.
The Intercept requires that javascript be enabled for you to post. Javascript leaks out user information, though this being a secure https connection that information may not be accessible to others, very optimistically hoping, that is.
There may be some revenue-related reasons why that the Intercept folks may want to collect this information. In any case, this wasn’t there before until some of the current editors joined the team. The Tor browser repeatedly warned of attempt by this website to collect canvas information, but luckily Micah Lee attended to that on me pointing it out to him.
Some things trip their automatic filter. Like too many links. If you complain they look it up and check it manually.
From my perspective it is a small price to pay for filtering out the spam that make other sites unusable.
The only comment I remember getting censored permanently was a link to a Vice documentary on YouTube about Donkeys in Columbia.
Kitt, would you do me the favor of trying to post a link to Jill Stein’s website here on this subthread? Just to see? I swear it won’t post if I try it. There are other comments that never appeared, but this ought to be innocuous enough to post.
http://www.jill2016.com/
Thanks. Mysterious glitches it is! I think I should take a break for a while…
Maisie, it’s extremely unlikely that your posts don’t show because of moderator action. Unless someone complains, there really isn’t much moderation here.
But all kinds of things cause the commenting software to disappear or delay a comment. Among these are putting more than one link in a comment, or certain words the software just will not accept. (And first comments using a particular email address are delayed because a human has to decide whether it’s a person or a spambot.)
One of Glenn Greenwald’s more unhinged critics, well, I can’t post his name here because the software only takes the comment if I use symbols for vowels. There’s no reason any human should choose for that to happen, it just does.
About a year ago I couldn’t comment here for a month because my email address got identified by the spam filter. By the time the IT staff figured it out we determined it was happening to others and we were all “set free.”
The software here is just full of bugs and really awful.
Obviously I’m sure you’re telling the truth, and I don’t get the feeling much real time moderation is occurring. That all sounds pretty weird, though, and surprisingly cheap. Thanks (to all who offered explanations) for the clarification – but I’ve never posted more than one link at a time, and I swear there are comments that have never appeared at all. Perhaps it is all glitches – I didn’t mean to imply I was being persecuted especially, I was just getting frustrated; in fact I’m mostly happy with the dynamism and variety here and the usual acceptance of anything I have to say (an acceptance which certainly doesn’t happen anywhere else), although my boyfriend keeps telling me I’m here too much – which is probably true.
I think Khizr Khan did a mistake wading into politics, where he is now being pushed in deeper by the Democrats for their own electoral profit, not considering what the family is going through. The family should be allowed to withdraw gracefully into seclusion and go through the healing process for an irreparable loss.
But this fellow is behaving as if he wants to get full mileage for the misfortune suffered by his valiant son. This is very unfortunate. People who seek understanding and solace should avoid unnecessary controversies, especially those that come with the association of crook’d lyin’ people.
I myself would never have given such a speech at a political party’s convention for fear of it being exploited and politicized.
However, had Trump reacted in a humbler manner, this story would not have become a weeklong story.
Read this: “How The Khans Became A Weeklong Story: An Explainer For Howard Kurtz — Donald Trump can’t let sleeping dogs lie, at least not when there’s a chance to malign their patriotism instead.“, at http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/khizr-khan-donald-trump_us_57a0bbc4e4b08a8e8b5f7121?section=&
Excerpt:
Right, that would have been the correct reaction.
Trump has been a businessman all his life, and his experience as a politician is practically zero. Otherwise, he would have known that it was better for him to have shut up and let the comments pass. Such brashness and insensitivity may be okay in business, but where he is expecting to get approval from people he needs to be more humble, and especially where parents have recently lost their child in battle.
What I am feeling sad about is that the loyal media is also fanning this story in order to score points against Trump that will benefit the Democratic Party. Most of Trump’s reactions have been elicited by nosy journalists who then victoriously headline his reactions. These are seasoned journalists who should know better. There are many other places where they can corner Trump, but this issue is one that should be set aside in consideration for the grieving parents.
Trump need to polish up his behavior, no doubt. As president he would have to tell lots of lies, especially to other heads of state who should not be able to discern his intentions of walking away from deals and other such stuff. In fact, the ability to continuously lie to everyone on everything everywhere makes Hiliary Clinton eminently qualified to live in the country’s premium public housing estate once again.
Trump has been arousing interest all over the world. For quite some time, many people thought he was simply entertaining. Huffington Post once even put him in its Entertainment section and openly publicized their decision to do so.
Some even suggested that he was a Clinton plant, planted to help her win with his shenanigons.
He is certainly helping her. Instead of focusing on her, he wasted 2-4 days on the Khans, for example, irritating many veterans.
And now, he has declared he won’t endorse a couple of key Republicans, not yet anyway, and a Republican congressman has come out and said that he’ll vote for Clinton.
Looks like there are many Republicans who have decided that four years of Clinton are better than Trump, and they are willing to lose this year and then start rebuilding the party.
P.S. Whatever happened to Bill Kristol’s “exciting” candidate?
The only two ways Trump can lose is by voter fraud and by hacked voting machines. Did you notice how Lyin’ Ted was booed? The rest of the gentry will fare no better.
But he needs to watch out for a different reason. After getting elected he may soon face impeachment by the very folks that he is now demeaning supported by the Crooked’s camp, which would be quite sad.
…..so, which ones are the “crook’d lyin’ people”?….
…..it is not just Democrats that have expressed outrage by Trump’s assault on the Khans; it is also members of the Republican party and the VFW along with other decent, civilized people…
…..so, will Trump be disclosing his medical records so we can see how his “bone spurs” healed themselves since the war in Vietnam ended?
……we now await the excuses that the Trump campaign will use to not have the Trump-Clinton debate(s)…..Trump is working on them right now…..
Please re-post your thoughts properly so that we may have a comfortable argument, since I am not particularly inclined to a dog-fight like some of the other folks here, who fortunately seem to have made themselves scarce these days.
I will appreciate your cooperation and kindness in this matter.
The Khan speech was shameful. Why was the man evoking his son in this manner? He should be deeply ashamed. Trump played no role in the death. And as for the US constitution: Syrian refugees, be they legitimate or ISIS infiltrators, do not have rights under the US Constitution. It is not like internment of Japanese American citizens during WWII under Democrat president, FDR.
Study of human beings is a fascinating study, indeed.
It’s amazing how diverse we are, and how we develop different perceptions of the reality of a particular situation.
Above, is this commenter, lashing out at Khan, and here’s a blogger saying this:
From: “The Smallness of The Donald”, at http://www.huffingtonpost.com/douglas-anthony-cooper/the-smallness-of-the-donald-trump_b_11298822.html?
Scroll down to the comments section and you’ll read this comment from a commenter:
Khizr and his wife both openly supported Donald Trump’s position on their PBS interview with Sally Woodruff where they stated that extra screening of muslims from countries that have issues is necessary.
The fact that Khizr cannot bring himself to say that his son would be alive today had Donald Trump been president instead of gw bushya seems to me somewhat thoughtless or cowardly because it turns out that he does after all engage in supporting practices of the crazy places.
Discussing history is always tricky. People develop different perceptions of reality.
What is Trump’s position on non-American Muslims, anyway?
Is it a complete shutdown of them all until the Congress figures out what the heck is going on?
Or, is it, that Muslims from certain regions go through extra screening, which is already being done?
It’s time to play “make a sentence more logical” —-
barabbas: “The fact that Khizr cannot bring himself to say that his son would be alive today had Donald Trump been president instead of gw bushya….”
….means that he doesn’t propose highly unlikely counterfactual scenarios?
I find it amusing, by the way, that this is the same bullshit argument that Democrats make all the time about the Iraq War. As fucking if. The Iraq War was on the table throughout the 90s. Madeline Albright defended starving that country.
Trump supported the war when it mattered in 2002. Trump did an ad for Netanyahu without any particular necessity to do so a few years ago.
Stop acting like he is a brave man. He is a bullshit publicity hound.
The Supreme Court , by not condemning Trump’s anti-Islamic speech for instigating violence and intolerance, is not just an accomplice of the same crime, but, as the institution in charge of preserving justice and equality, the real responsible and solely responsible for it. There will always be mad people, they are all welcome as long as their madness does not lead to a criminal offence. So who is suing Trump for this? I can’t , I am not american.
Just so you know, the Supreme Court isn’t responsible for taking on how people speak- unless a court case has made its way through lower courts, is brought before the Supreme Court , and the court accepts hearing it.
Nice work Murtaza, I was wondering when someone was going to write about this issue. It seems the anti-muslim rhetoric from the west directly fuels propaganda from Isis. I think it’s counterproductive to say the least.
The current administration is executing dirty wars in Africa, bombing Iraq, Syria, Somalia, Libya, Yemen, Pakistan and Afghanistan, and giving unprecedented arms deals to Saudi Arabia which ultimately funnels weapons to lunatics. For four years this was overseen by Hillary Clinton.
Trump’s despicable racist baiting is disgusting, but ISIS is inflamed by actual Western interference.
Let’s not set up ISIS as some kind of purist organization that would not be “inflamed” enough to exploit the Trump quotes, preferring to only high-mindedly care about “actual Western interference.” Opportunists use opportunities.
I think the rest of the world, including ISIS, pretty much think Trump is a ridiculous, cartoonish caricature of a typical American – and while I agree that of course they would exploit his offensive braggadocio, such influence in my opinion probably pales in comparison to the anger aroused by the obvious hypocrisy of Western leaders who claim publicly to be tolerant but are in fact staunch interventionists on behalf of the multinational corporate interests governing US foreign policy.
ISIS must see Trump being understandably pushed back on by basically the entire Western media, while the interference and wasp-nest stirring executed by the politically-correct-sounding Democrats is obviously being given a free pass by the mainstream. Although radical extremists will exploit Trump’s foul nonsense, it is the hypocritical violent actions of the West which indubitably weigh heavier in the scale – since the Wahhabism (extremist radical Islam) promoted by Saudi Arabia is being unnaturally made to thrive by Western interventionism and arms sales, giving the battle between that repulsive philosophy and the equally repulsive Wahhabism of ISIS a much greater theater of conflict than it would normally, and arousing far more support for hatred of the West than would occur otherwise.
Yeah. In other words, you think the rest of the world views Trump from your perspective: a bored American who is used to American hyperbole.
Except there is no reason for the rest of the world to think of us as sane people who could be trusted to see Trump as “a ridiculous, cartoonish caricature.” On the contrary: maybe they see Trump as the real USA.
Maybe they are right, too.
By the way, one thing I would now sadly argue is that hypocrisy is politically effective, and not so hard to hide as blustery dumbness.
oh one more thing — you are still treating ISIS as having some kind of rationale beyond just taking shit over and killing people for fun.
“ISIS must see Trump being understandably pushed back on by basically the entire Western media, while the interference and wasp-nest stirring executed by the politically-correct-sounding Democrats is obviously being given a free pass by the mainstream.”
This is just breathlessly idealistic. Why in the world should they care about the finer points of this interpretation of yours? Why should ISIS care whether the Democrats or Republicans are better or worse, or more honest or dishonest, than one another?
You are treating ISIS like a group of concerned ideologues, rather than just vicious assholes who, when they had their military jobs, used to terrorize the Iraqi people and now, thanks to the idiotic American destruction of that society, can now terrorize all kinds of other people too. In other places. Plus anybody who wants to can “join” just by going online and saying “I’m gonna kill a bunch of people, I just joined ISIS.”
Middle East Time Bomb: The Real Aim of ISIS Is to Replace the Saud Family as the New Emirs of Arabia
Read the posts below to find out ISIS’ rationale.
And I’m not bored.
IsUS is being used by USzion in destroying Syria for Israeli hegemony.
Ending it would only require getting the gulf states to end funding and weaponry.Of course they won’t just disappear,but wo dough they will be ineffective.
There is a good reason Israel protects the Saudis.A mutual blackmail society.But of course the American illiberals would never believe the Saudis story over the Israelis.
For more details on Saudi Arabia’s internal disagreement and tensions regarding ISIS, and the West’s unhelpful interventionism…
You Can’t Understand ISIS If You Don’t Know the History of Wahhabism in Saudi Arabia
Also see: Middle East Time Bomb: The Real Aim of ISIS Is to Replace the Saud Family as the New Emirs of Arabia
Middle East Time Bomb: The Real Aim of ISIS Is to Replace the Saud Family as the New Emirs of Arabia
This looks like a nicely concocted story that serves the purpose of deflecting the accusation for creating the ISIS away from their creator, the House of Saud.
An organization cannot survive and flourish as ISIS has without some very rich country actively supporting it. ISIS thrives with Saudi money. That ISIS was conceived as a future threat to the creators themselves is a story that is good for the Sauds to spread around with the help of conniving story-tellers masquerading as journalists.
Or it may be just their attempt to wash their hands off their Frankenstein and lay it to rest temporarily, now that they see the inevitable ascension of Donald Trump who will call their bluff.
Please read both articles. Alistair Cook is not concocting anything false in this essay.
The name is Alastair Crooke, not Alistair Cook.
That aside, you should know the significance of money, power and religion in any society.
The goal is power. The enabler to achieve that power and sustain it is money. And the organizer for popular support is religion. His story has got it all wrong with the assertion that the end goal is the religion and its spread. Nothing can be far from truth.
Well, I think you’re mistaken about the essay, as it explains a great deal with much clarity.
It’s nice to hear someone has the patience to wade through such laborious tales. I myself found it irritating after some time to carry on, and was most relieved to finish them. Yes, a lot said but I found little substance. Maybe my personal bias played a role.
ISIS and Saudis are best friends, not enemies.
As you read it, you know the essay delves considerably into that, but the clash of Wahhabisms is the more relevant point, albeit for its being ignored by the media. The essay points out the rift between two main factions of Saudi Arabia, some in support of ISIS and some intent on spreading the Saudi Wahhabism in opposition to the Wahhabism of ISIS. And into this dangerous game the West intervenes on behalf of the corporate interests allied with the Kingdom itself. I don’t know why this seems insubstantial to you.
And with that I bid you adieu. But I’ll be back. Well, I hope so!
The essay gives primacy to religious inclinations. That is definitely not the case.
Those that peddle religion are after money and power. Religion provides them with an army of supporters ready to die for them, and that in turn makes them powerful. Sometimes they also use money to buy that support, but of course religion is more economical. Allah takes care of all the payments and the virgin gifts.
This is where I disagree with Mr Crooke. He does not understand the politics of religion like I do. There is really no clash of Wahabism. The Saudis will choke off ISIS the day they feel sufficiently threatened, if at all such a day dawns.
However, the Saudis have a growing problem that can lead to a coup, which is quite independent of ISIS and not at all related to any religion. Due to low crude oil prices the Saudis have not been able to meet their social commitments, and some of the opportunistic princes themselves will lead or join in the revolt.
“Opportunists use opportunities.”
Kinda’ like how the DNC/Clinton operatives had Khan speak at the convention in the first place? Those kind of opportunists?
Precisely those kinds of opportunists, landlocked. They are indeed all over the place?
Curious, Did you think you “had me” with that comment of yours?
Christ, all you dumbfucks who can’t get out of your partisan boxes and see that the shit rains down from every direction…..
A plague on both your houses, Clinton and Trump supporters.
(Some of the more lefty people are also vile – deciding right THIS second to be a dick about how soldiers have it coming is so counter-productive….you know, not everybody is just like you, you could grow some empathy since — ha ha allegedly — your philosophy is based on it — of course some of you have already indicated that maybe folks just have to die to make things better, and I hope you will continue to be honest that way so I can stay the fuck away from you supposed allies).
Seldom has a thread here been filled with such mean-spirited tri-partisan stink.
It’s an almost empathy-free zone. I don’t want to work with hardly any of you to do anything; at your worst you make me glad that mostly American politics is controlled by dull hacks. Bunch of freaks, and not in fun way either.
(posters on this thread not included in this condemnation: sufi muslim, photosymbiosis, Maisie, Sparrow…sorry if I missed someone who didn’t deserve it)
ISIS are much more similar to Hillary Clinton, who has actually ordered the deaths of people through unnecessary, cowardly and and brutal violence. And laughed about it.
And again, although Trump is a reprehensible doofus, I won’t believe he has a black soul until he sings “What’d I say” by Ray Charles and does it well.
Hillary’s comments about Gaddafi were vile, but otherwise you’re way off base.
Her spearheading the cowardly assaults on the populations of Sirte and other areas of Libya where civilians were butchered by drones and fighter planes was vile, too.
I’m not off base.
Yeah…you are off base.
There is a difference between Clinton’s spearheading of the intervention versus spearheading the actual assault. In an article that criticizes the binary thinking of ISIL, you do exactly that: this is the type of simplification that leads people to conclude that “Hillary created ISIL.”
You make it sound like Hillary was running the show. The intervention was spearheaded first by AFRICOM then for the U.S. transferred to NATO. As for the drones, it was a NATO commander that convinced Robert Gates to arm drones for use in Libya instead of just for surveillance purposes. Don’t let these pesky details get in the way of pinning it all on one person.
You pretend that NATO was responsible for all the civilian deaths. What rock were you under when the Arab Spring protests in Libya started and the crackdown began? http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/20/world/middleeast/20mideast-protests.html?hp
Even Critics Understate How Catastrophically Bad the Hillary-led Bombing Of Libya Was
No, I’m not off base, though you might be off your rocker.
Adding Up the Costs of Hillary Clinton’s Wars
Your own links’ foundational articles undercut your argument.
NYT piece:
She didn’t run the operation. It’s that simple.
You are a media snob who resists documented fact, and certainly that is simple. NYT indeed!
A “media snob.”
That’s a new one.
Hey Nate, How many people has ISIS killed vs ‘coalition’ deaths in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, etc, ?
ballpark number will do …
Please narrow your inquiry. During what timeframe?
The comments are only the tip of the iceberg.Her legacy includes Iraq,Afghanistan,Syria,the rest of Africa,and the Ukraine,all instigated on her watch,and the result is millions of dead,refugees up the yin yang,a world destroyed and all,as she was outed,for Israel.
She is the most shameless lying screwup in American history,with absolutely nothing but shite on her resume,but as with the abysmal Obomba,iron clad protection from the MSM.
And her absolutely disgusting display of zionist ardor for that criminal Yahoo deserved the firing squad.
So basically every bad thing that happened throughout the world – including the Ukraine crisis which was after she left the State Department – defines Clinton’s legacy? Hey, she deserves her share of blame for being such an interventionist, no doubt about it. But let’s not pretend like she went it alone and therefore deserves the lion’s share of blame.
* Iraq resolution (77-23 vote in the Senate).
* AUMF against AQ in Afghanistan (98-0 in the Senate, 420-1 in the House, including Bernie Sanders gasp!! )
* Syria is so ridiculous to bring up, as the U.S.’s footprint there has been so minimal compared to Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, Libya. Many TI commentators seem to think Hillary is to blame for the Arab Spring (not when it looked like it had upside though, just when it turned bad).
The comparisons don’t end there. Trump shares other things in common with the Islamic State.
1. Identity politics. ISIS offers hope for some disillusioned Sunnis in Iraq and Syria who were downtrodden and unhappy with the government. Trump offers hope to disillusioned Americans who are generally white, male, under-educated, and poor and who feel they have no voice, that society has left them behind, and that its everybody’s fault but theirs.
2. Belief in the charismatic leader. ISIS offers a religious totalitarianism where the will of god (as interpreted by ISIS of course) rules the day. The vessel is Abu Bakr al Baghdadi. Trump believes that he is the individual savior (“when I take the oath of office next year, I will restore law and order our country”) and appeals to those with authoritarian attitudes.
3. Lack of political imagination. ISIS rejects politics and therefore doesn’t have a long term vision about forging alliances and serving its people. That comes after they gain the “caliphate.” Trump doesn’t have a long term vision for America. His priority is first and foremost promoting himself and his brand. He offers no policy specifics and is woefully uninformed. But that will be reversed once he gains power.
4. All publicity is good. ISIS and Trump both believe that all press – no matter how appalling – is good press.
5. Rejected by their cohorts. ISIS is so extreme that they’ve been disowned by some other jihadists such as Al Qaeda and al Nusra, who look damn near diplomatic these days. Trump is so extreme that many on the right have vocally opposed him and outright avoided him during the convention (e.g. H.W. Bush and W. Bush) and pillory him publicly (e.g. Max Boot, seemingly every former G.W. Bush admin official).
6. Preparation for their demise. ISIS has may be preparing its members for the downfall of its caliphate. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/inside-isis-quietly-preparing-for-the-loss-of-the-caliphate/2016/07/12/9a1a8a02-454b-11e6-8856-f26de2537a9d_story.html Trump is doing the same by starting to make claims that the system is rigged against him. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/inside-isis-quietly-preparing-for-the-loss-of-the-caliphate/2016/07/12/9a1a8a02-454b-11e6-8856-f26de2537a9d_story.html
7. No love for the press. ISIS and Donald Trump disdain journalists who dare defy their narrative. ISIS kills them, Trump revokes their credentials and vows to “open up libel laws.”
No. 6, second link was the wrong one. Should be: http://www.cnn.com/2016/08/01/politics/donald-trump-election-2016-rigged/
Interesting comparisons – but let’s not forget that the flow of weapons and money to groups in Syria who aimed to overthrow Assad – i.e., ISIS, the Al-Nusra Front, and the Free Syrian Army – was due to covert and overt efforts by Clinton, Obama, Panetta, and others in the U.S.; Turkey and Jordan played a key logistical role; Saudi Arabia and Qatar provided money and arms and fighters; and Israel has been on board with the strategy since early on, as ISIS was viewed as an anti-Iranian proxy force controlled by Saudi Arabia.
There’s plenty of evidence of this:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/9856382/Leon-Panetta-supports-Hillary-Clinton-plan-to-arm-Syrian-rebels.html
As well as “C.I.A. Arms for Syrian Rebels Supplied Black Market, Officials Say”, NYTimes June 26 2016
The picture is one of the U.S. moving weapons, fighters and money into Syria in a reckless uncontrolled manner, all in the name of launching a civil war that would result in the downfall of Assad and his replacement by a U.S.-friendly puppet regime – an epic fail on all fronts, one that led to the rise of ISIS, and a massive flood of refugees into Europe.
Such reckless and bloodthirsty actions are what Hillary Clinton will continue to push for as President; that’s why people should not support her agenda.
An absolutely fair criticism, proxy wars sure are ugly and Hillary has no qualms jumping in without considering the long game. As your article says:
It’s virtually impossible to keep under tight control.
However, it’s not “bloodthirsty.” The intentions aren’t to see wanton destruction. Assad is a real piece of work, as are adversaries such as the Islamic State. History frowns on failed intervention but it also frowns on inaction. Bill Clinton learned the hard way for his administration’s role (or lack thereof) in Rwanda. Kosovo and Bosnia in turn, put a lot of people on an interventionist path, including Hillary.
another day at the clintercept. jesus christ.
i’m not a fan of trump at all but that is an epic stretch. and of course [insert 5,000th comment pointing out clinton foundation ties to wahabi governments in addition to her actions while at state department and in the congress]. never mind the neo-red baiting clintonians engage in on their way to WWIII because putin is an apostate of the Church of America Owns the World (LLC).
i also feel for any parent with the loss of child but WOW the media is collectively riding this khan guy’s dick a little more than necessary. once again: clinton is directly or indirectly responsible for their son’s death. from saudi ties to lack of body armor and etc. to – almost forgot – authorizing the fucking war in the first place. this article and the constant bitching and moaning in the entire media over the past few days are just further proof that the military has become a religion in the west and khan is just the latest “saint” that dare not be questioned. see also the vietnamese civilian bombing mccain and his “heroic” status in the Church despite his repeated acts of virulent racism and basic insanity.
no one drafted khan. no one put a gun to his head. if the very idea of a tiny sliver of accountability for ANY action wasn’t anathema to clinton and her millions of trolls they would get that.
I summarized your post:
boooooiiiinnngg
The sound of deflection.
“the pair” and “Nate” = rock em sock em robots
a left! a sort of left! Pow! Gazang!! I’m rooting against you both!!!
Like him or not, agree with him or not, but this is what Dr. Juan Cole has to say; I’m merely sharing his perspective, and I know there are many perspectives on the Khans:
“Are the Muslim Khans better Americans than Donald Trump?”, at http://www.juancole.com/2016/07/muslim-better-americans.html
Read the whole thing, but this is his conclusion:
Chris Christie has also called Trump’s criticism of the Khans ‘inappropriate’.
I personally would not have given such a speech at a political convention. I would’ve known it’d be politicized.
The Muslim Khan is making money by facilitating US visa for wealthy Muslims so, no, I am not exactly in awe at this person’s accomplishments. The fact that he just took down (I bet, temporarily) the web site where he was advertising his heroic services is maybe an indicator that Muslim Khan agrees with me.
As for his son making ‘the ultimate sacrifice’, he volunteered to join the US military so that he can participate in a war of aggression. I would not call being part of turning another country into ruins and mass-murdering and torturing the locals something to be proud of.
Is he breaking any laws? If so, why is he not being prosecuted?
Is he allowed to have weaknesses and flaws, or do you expect the Gold Stars families to be as perfect as Jesus?
There is only one issue here: The Khans made a mistake of speaking out at a political party’s convention, lashing out against the competitor.
So, now, there will be those who will look for dirt against him and will demonize him and his family. America is very much a divided country. Pat Buchanan thinks there are two Americas right now.
Can’t comment on something I know nothing about.
That said, aren’t you making assumptions based on how you already feel about him?
Again, if he has committed a crime, he should be indicted.
You may disagree with me — and that’s okay — however, I firmly believe that we do not know the inner state and intentions of another individual.
It is possible that while a collective action is morally wrong, an individual participating in it might be participating in it with noble intentions. It is possible that they do so based on their own personal level of awareness of the whole situation. It is possible that they have genuinely felt that what they are doing as an individual is morally positive.
This is why I refrain from passing a judgment on someone who has been killed in a war.
See this: “Humayun Khan’s Army Comrades Remember Him As A Selfless Patriot”, at http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/humayun-khan-troops_us_57a09356e4b0e2e15eb7132c?section=&
His comrades’ perspective seems to be different than yours. It is possible that his last act was of utmost selflessness, and that act alone overrides all his previous acts in life and may outweigh them all in terms of quality due to noble intentions. So it is possible that at the moment he died he was in a state of utter selflessness — a quality of the higher self/consciousness.
“Again, if he has committed a crime, he should be indicted.”
There’s a continuum with maybe ‘criminal’ at one end and ‘saint’ at the other. Muslim Kahn is not close to the ‘saint’ end, that’s all. I don’t believe that he would even qualify as a role model for other people’s children.
There is a difference between someone being a candidate for indictment – I am thinking Hillary Clinton or Martha Stewart – and someone being judged by the person you quote as ‘a thousand times better American(s) than Trump will ever be’. Seriously? How did Juan Cole measure ‘Americanism’? And, more importantly, how can he possibly know how good an American ‘Trump will ever be’? I do read Cole’s from time to time, by the way.
It just may be that he decided to take the stage and parade his son’s sacrifice because he feared that Trump becoming president might hurt his immigration visa peddling business. Of course, he has nothing to fear. I remember some not so bright newspeople and commentators fearing that the tax preparation business would disappear after Ronald Reagan got his tax reform passed because everything was simplified. It was so funny. Or those fearing that we were going to run out of immigrant landscapers after the same Ronald Reagan got passed the Simpson-Mazzoli immigration reform (aka illegal immigrants amnesty). I also remember those fearing that we were about to run out of wars and the entire military industry was about to go bankrupt after the Berlin wall went down and we won the Cold War. Seriously, how funny was that? Have you listened to Hillary lately?
Yes, it is possible, but so are other possible motives. We won’t know if the cat is dead until we open the box. Until then, I guess, one can suggest it is both alive and dead.
That said, human beings are very complex. So it is possible that he did what he did with several motives and reasons.
We just don’t know his inner state at the moment he decided to speak, the moments he prepared his speech and the moments he delivered it.
So I refrain from passing a judgment on his motives as they are part of his inner realm, which I do not know.
I personally would not have given a speech in a political forum fearing that it would be politicized.
But we do know that his son died and, from what I have read, he was carrying out a selfless act during his last moments.
I also know that many Republicans are refraining from demonizing this Gold Star family, and many veterans have spoken out in their favor.
No.
“He’s the universal soldier and he really is to blame.”
We need to stop honoring, celebrating and venerating the participants in wars of aggression and perpetrators of war crimes, crimes against the peace and crimes against humanity. We may understand them and forgive them, but what they do is wrong in the very worst way and it must be condemned.
After all, “He’s the one who gives his body as a weapon of the war, and without him all this killing can’t go on.”
Nuremberg Principles
it’s fucked to start with the soldiers. I don’t know what the fuck you are thinking.
What else? People have complained about bankers not going to jail. Hey let’s arrest the tellers at the local branch.
Let’s see, who gets nailed for war crimes, generals or soldiers?
You are really going to lead us to progress I can just tell.
So, you don’t believe in the Nuremberg Principles?
You’d give members of the armed forces a pass because they “were just following orders” or because they thought they were “serving their country?”
Both generals and soldiers — and politicians — should “get nailed” for the war crimes they commit, obviously — unless you don’t believe that individuals should be held responsible for their actions when society or their superiors approve.
This will really blow your mind: I think people who vote for warmongers knowing they are warmongers share responsibility for the wars they start or continue and for the war crimes that result. In other words, voting can, effectively, be a war crime.
Who was tried at the The Nuremberg Trials? People with power.
Were German soldiers tried en masse? No of course not. That would not have even been a good idea.
Collective punishment after WWI proved to be a great way to seed resentments for WWII.
Meanwhile, you don’t care who gets punished so long as somebody does. Whatever, dope.
“Who was tried at the The Nuremberg Trials? People with power.”
The citation was to the Nuremberg Principles, which apply much more widely than to the particular tribunals you apparently have in mind.
Your reference to collective punishment either demonstrates that you don’t know what the term means or you are attempting, feebly, to set up a straw man.
“Meanwhile, you don’t care who gets punished so long as somebody does.”
Nothing I wrote suggests anything of the sort. Indeed, quite the opposite.
Anyway, your initial assertion is, except for the narrow context in which you seem to understand the issue, just plain wrong, dope (and apologist for war criminals).
How much “power” do you think Therese Brandl had? Would you be willing to treat all US personnel who commit war crimes in the same way the Allies treated her?
If not, why not?
In the post to which I referred, you suggested that “voting can, effectively, be a war crime.” Fucking A. That doesn’t come out of Nuremberg, straight out of your head.
But how would such a “war crime” be punished, hmmmm? Given that those Nuremberg Principles do indeed demand punishment for war crimes….
“Collectively” is the one way I could think of actually meting out such a punishment.
But my references to “collective punishment” were apparently in your view a “straw man?”
What happened is that I called you on your incoherent mix of stated positions.
You’re good at ducking, avoidance, diversion and bullshitting. You’re even fairly accomplished at feigning knowledge in areas of which you are largely ignorant.
You’re not very good at dealing with challenges squarely.
In other words, you’re a fraud, not nearly as bright as you pretend to be. Even worse, you are still an apologist for war criminals.
Trust me on this: you are only fooling the clueless and the half-bright. But I suspect that you hang out in forums like this to enhance your sense of self-importance, so fooling the half-bright may be achievement enough for you.
In other words, you don’t have an argument.
The question of “who is a better American” is absolutely irrelevant.
Trump’s comments only further cement how disgusting of a person he is and how unfit he is to lead. I wouldn’t trust Donald Trump to run a lemonade stand in my neighborhood.
In some circles, the Muslims are being considered less of Americans because of their religion.
The father is just another quisling for uszion,the instigators of this whole criminal war for the security and expansion of Israel.
Millions of dead people,and you defend the perps using Muslim pawns in their corrupt game of hegemony.sheesh.
Stop defending him,and them,it stains you,and reveals your bias.
It’s usually a good idea to read other people’s comments carefully.
The primary theme of all my comments in this thread is: We do not know the inner state and motives of another person. Therefore, we must not pass a judgment on them on their inner states and motives.
Agree with me on this on disagree, it doesn’t matter. I have merely been sharing my thoughts, and am not interested in a debate.
I wonder if you have just been reading your own thoughts into my posts here.
Look,you seem a nice person,but too nice at times.
These are times for the truth,and the truth for this American,is the regaining of American sovereignty will end this crazy cycle of violence for Israel.
And Trump will end up a hero to the Israelis if he makes them make a just peace,as he will overcome their own wacky id.
As I have stated elsewhere to someone else, I am talking about A and you (and that other commenter) are talking about B.
I started to comment here because I noticed some judgmentalism towards the Khans and their son on their inner states and motives.
I have generally been addressing that.
Banning Muslim immigration is a diversion from considering a productive plan to a safer more peaceful world environment (reduction of terrorism).
What needs to be banned are U.S. bombs, U.S. troops, U.S. financial interference from entering Muslim countries. Plus, the elimination of strong and enthusiastic U.S. support of Zionist apartheid.
@Jamie: No WAY are you getting away with this bullshit here. Here’s the facts as they were in 2012:
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Foreign-Policy/2012/1010/Mitt-Romney-wants-to-arm-Syrian-rebels-What-are-the-risks
Romney wanted them not merely to get arms, but shoulder-fired weapons to take down planes! Obama was the one being skeptical about the whole thing.
Ah, I do believe Obama was the President, Clinton was the Secretary of State, and Panetta was the director of the CIA in 2011. So that’s who bears responsiblity for the decisions made, isn’t it?
What that Romney article shows is that the argument was over overt vs. covert weapons shipments to all anti-Assad forces. All the evidence indicates that in 2011, the neocons and neoliberals thought that radical Islamic terror groups in Syria could be controlled by the Saudis and used as a proxy force to overthrow Assad. Panetta at the CIA/Defense, Hillary at State, Obama as President – all were involved in this strategy from 2011 onwards. If you want a real discussion of this from 2012:
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2012/02/20/commentary/how-the-arab-spring-was-hijacked/
This touches on the larger picture of how Obama and Clinton responded to the Arab Spring pro-democracy push – i.e. they were determined to crush it as a threat to U.S. allies like the House of Saud, or to hijack it as a means of overthrowing rulers who were less obedient to Washington dictates. Clear enough, isn’t that? Pro-dictatorship, anti-democracy. Any questions?
In Syria this approach turned into an absolute debacle, a mega-disaster that brought civil war and destruction to Syria, a huge flood of refugees into Europe, and facilitated the global growth of ISIS-related terrorism. This was not supposed to happen, but that’s what these idiotic regime change games that Clinton is so fond of have created.
Sure, Democrats and Republicans are both rushing to dissociate themselves from this debacle and blame it on the other side; the corporate media is cooperating by not investigating – although can you imagine the U.S. government response if some CIA trainer in Turkey started blabbing to the press about training fighters who immediately defected to ISIS with weapons and money once they were sent into Syria on Turkish passports? Whistleblower persecution of epic proportions, I’m guessing.
The fact is, the whole Syria destabilization program was just a continuation of Bush-era neocon games; they wanted to invade Iraq and use it as a base for military actions against Syria and Iran, as part of the “Project for A New American Century” imperial wet-dream – and Clinton, as her neocon friends will tell you, is right on board with that agenda.
The Japan Times link talks about “great power politics”, but the most tangible thing they mention is that “the U.S.” set up a London-based TV station to broadcast into Syria a year before the unrest. I looked this up and found http://www.abc.net.au/correspondents/content/2011/s3276310.htm – which does not sound like a large effort; basically a half dozen people running a YouTube channel that unspecified satellite TV networks were rebroadcasting. I wonder how many Syrians had access to satellite TV, and whether those really needed this effort to encounter negative information about Assad.
The U.S. has a well-earned reputation for backing the most malicious dictators, but I think over time this has diffused out into a sort of conspiratorial thinking that regards the American government like the Elders of Zion. I’m sorry, but one TV station doesn’t mean moral responsibility for everything that happens if people rise up against Assad. And I don’t believe that the people doing Arab Spring uprisings were really just passive clay molded in the hands of sinister foreign overlords. The problems that have followed these uprisings seem to me to have very much a Muslim and Middle Eastern character, not an American character or even a crooked American puppet government character.
So Trump and the Islamic State allegedly agree on something. Big Deal! Obama and Hillary created and armed ISIS to overthrow Syria.
Hillary and Hitler (both names being with an H… coincidence?) agreed that Russia was not their friend. And, of course, Hillary and W agreed that invading Iraq was a swell thing to do.
I don’t know what to make out of these agreements.
http://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2016/jul/20/donald-trump/donald-trump-wrongly-blames-hillary-clinton-creati/
“Neither he nor his wife was a figure of public prominence, nor had he spoken at any major political events in the past.”
That may be true, but it also seems to be true that he handsomely profits from Muslim immigration. According to this article: “Panic Mode: Khizr Khan Deletes Law Firm Website that Specialized in Muslim Immigration”…
“A snapshot of his now deleted website, as captured by the Wayback Machine which takes snapshots archiving various websites on the Internet, shows that as a lawyer he engages in procurement of EB5 immigration visas and other “Related Immigration Services.”
[…]
The EB5 program, which helps wealthy foreigners usually from the Middle East essentially buy their way into America, is fraught with corruption. U.S. Senate Judiciary Committee chairman Sen. Chuck Grassley (R-IA) has detailed such corruption over the past several months, and in February issued a blistering statement about it.”
So his motivation is as pure as… (acid) rainwater?
Then you agree with the rightwing extremists in the US (Trump) and the Middle East (ISIL) who believe the Khan’s need to be denounced & demonized?
Instead of using bullshit rhetoric that you cut-and-paste from the unhinged Trump apologists at Breitbart, why not just have the backbone to admit that you agree with the Trump/ISIL worldview – that it’s Mooooslims vs Merkans (despite the fact that there are over 5000 Muslims in the US military)?
The article I mentioned makes a number of statements of fact.
Do you dispute that the sacrificial Khan took down is Muslim immigration facilitating site? Do you dispute that he made money by getting visas for wealthy relatives of Gulf sheiks and emirs? And if you don’t, how pure would you say were his ulterior motives?
And as far as his son’s sacrifice… everyone with a conscience and in IQ above 100 should have REFUSED to participate in that stupid war of aggression. Our soldiers are not longer conscripted, they enlist because the WANT to so Khan’s son was killed within the context of us killing hundreds of thousands locals, torturing them, bursting into their homes at night, humiliating them the best we could. And then asking ourselves ‘why’ are they getting so radicalized, so fast and, why are they using violence against us?
So, no, if we are not totally dumb, whether we agree with our invading and turning those countries into ruins or not, we should not allow people from those parts coming to our country because many have relatives or friends that were killed, maimed, tortured or terrorized ‘by us’ and maybe they are not too happy about it. It’s not rocket science, really.
So I absolutely agree with Trump (and ISIL if it gives you a hardon) that, for the time being, we should be very circumspect about Muslims coming to live here. Maybe, after the Middle East is peaceful again and 50 years of peace have passed, we could view Muslims again the way we view… I don’t know… Norwegians?
The only Trump deal with the Muslims is filtering out potential people who might want to harm Americans.As this unheard of before phenomena has killed many Americans,it is wise and prudent.
In times of war(the WOT)prudent limits from areas of potential enemies has been carried out by liberal administrations,and wholesale imprisonment of Japanese Americans and others in WW2 makes his so called radical approach mild in comparison.
And the actual criminals who have enabled(MSM)this whole incredible disaster,and the whores who carried out,HRC,Obomba,Kerry,Bush,Cheney,McCain and all points neolibcon are the ones screaming loudest makes this an exercise in ludicrousness,bullshite and another attempted assassination of Trump by our mortal enemy,zionism,and its american traitors.
One can only shake ones head in amazement at the shamelessness of these power crazed psychopaths.
He actually said it quite clearly that he was calling for a complete shutdown of ALL Muslims until the Congress figured out what the heck was going on!
It meant even those Muslims who were either naturalized or born citizens of Western countries, like Canada and the U.K., would not be allowed into the U.S. until the Congress figured out what the heck was going on.
So, Western Muslim journalists, business people, students, tourists, etc., were to be shut down from entering the U.S. until the Congress figured out what the heck was going on.
He then realized his error and started to modify his binary position and list exclusions.
For example, he suggested that the Saudi businessmen he dealt with could be exempted from the ban.
He continued to modify his position until he recently stated that the ban would be based on regions, like the war torn regions of Syria and Iraq.
As for filtering out people, the U.S. already does that. Its vetting process could take like 2 years for refugees to enter the U.S. Moreover, the U.S. takes in a lot less refugees than some of the other Western countries.
No, his statement was not about any filtering out. It was clearly a statement to appeal to his base and get a lot of free media coverage to win primaries. And the media obliged.
Yeah, that’s the Party of McCarthy for you! Trump makes a total heel out of himself (a bone-spurred draft-dodging heel worth its weight in gold, to be precise). So how does he excuse claiming that “he made sacrifices” comparable to losing a son in battle while putting down the parents? Easy. Just pull out a DOSSIER! But look at this – it’s full of suspicious leads and worrisome suggestions, moral filth and pathetic wretchedness! What merit is there in any human soul when we and our Russian friends and advisors can pull out DATA about him and show that MAYBE he once did something QUESTIONABLE?
Trump did many questionable things and he’ll keep doing so. However, that doesn’t make his suggestion that we should be less enthusiastic about allowing in the country too many people from parts of the world where the vast majority of locals hate our guts – because we did and we keep doing some terribly bad things to them – a bad suggestion.
America is already not letting very many Muslims migrate. It’s extremely difficult for the Muslims even to visit the U.S., if they hold certain passports, let alone migrate.
America also takes very few refugees compared to other Western countries.
So, you are worrying for nothing. There is no possibility of the Muslims coming to the U.S. en mass, and take away your ways of life.
Okay, so we’re good. Why is this an issue then?
By the way, Google says: ” If children are included, the Muslim population in the United States totals 2.75 million Muslims in the country, the majority of whom (63%) are immigrants.”
1.75 million foreign born is a pretty large number. Especially when they are coming from places where the locals hate us. A lot. And, if I may say so, for good reason.
Out of 1.75 million foreign-born Muslims how many would want to avenge… something? It would be 1750 if only 1 in 1000 had such thoughts. Would it be a good idea to bring in some more? Hmmm… maybe… not???
I don’t know for sure, but the fear mongering of the Muslims does sell in some circles.
This does not necessarily mean the ones who are already in America hate America.
This hatred thing is more complex than many people realize. A person can hate a country’s certain policies but like what it has to offer in terms of employment opportunities, safety and security, the various institutions and their processes, un-interrupted electric supply (in some countries, there’s a severe shortage of electricity), clean water, a general lack of corruption, opportunities for higher education, foods that have not been mixed with unnatural substances, medications that are authentic, rules of driving and their enforcement, cleanliness, lack of pollution, freedom of religion and expression, political stability and lack of political violence, etc., etc., etc., which they don’t find in their countries of origin.
Not sure about the accuracy of your number, but when a Muslim disobeys the laws, she is punished for that. There are due processes to deal with the law-breakers.
Maybe I am not a superior person who would appreciate the sanitation services of the country that recently sent an army that laid my own country to waste and forced me to emigrate but I know that I’d be seething with hatred and desire for revenge. I would probably made sure that my children know where they came from and why they weren’t there any longer.
I am wondering how many of these immigrants are as unsophisticated as I am.
Perhaps, you are passing a judgment on others based on your own inner state.
I don’t know. You’ll need to look inward and find out.
It is possible that you are wrong. Many refugees have contributed positively. So to suggest that they are full of hatred, and not appreciative of what the host countries offer and desirous of paying them back in positive ways, is wrong.
Look up Maryam Monsef. She went to Canada as a refugee and later became a minister in the federal government I think.
Like I said, if 0.1% of the newcomers are as unsophisticated and as unappreciative as I would be, then we already have 1750 people ungrateful because we destroyed their lives and then generously allowed them to come here and enjoy our superior uninterrupted electric supplies (after interrupting their old country’s through sabotage followed by precision bombing)
I understand your fear. It is certainly based on your own personal assessment of the situation.
I’m not aware that 1750 Muslims in America, who came from war torn countries, have committed crimes and gotten away with them.
Some have. I believe that some who became soldiers killed a bunch of servicemen (and possibly women, not sure). Then there was that guy and his girlfriend or wife in California recently? Didn’t they decide to worship the ISIS and take some action? Thing is… why bring in more potential troublemakers when we, really, don’t have to? It’s just stupid but, I agree, not as stupid as bombing other countries or working oh-so-hard at taking down their governments.
I guess you are looking at the whole situation and find it to be overall negative and risky, while overwhelming majority of the refugees are fleeing some very horrible situations and are looking to fulfill some basic human needs.
Have you ever carried out an act of kindness randomly without expecting anything in return?
If so, how did you feel inwardly in that moment?
Did you find the experience uplifting or was it a horribly negative experience for you?
Generally speaking, how do human beings, individually and collectively, feel when they serve others without any expectations?
What inner benefits do they get?
Jesus has been thought of as someone who carried out noble actions. His qualities of selflessness, love and forgiveness are often cited by many.
Regardless of the theology around, and about, him, what would he do with all those who are fleeing war torn areas in the world?
This is the kind of thinking that drove US authorities to confiscate properties and send japanese-americans to internment camps in ww2, at the end of the day the threat did not materialize.
Most of the 63% muslim immigrants came to America pre 9/11, i dont have a number but immigration laws were tightened up after 9/11.
CLARIFICATION
I am not the one commenting here as “Sufi”. I comment here as “Sufi Muslim”.
No one from that era wanted to get drafted and fight and die in a rice paddy 12,000 miles away for nothing except morons.I was from that era,and was 17 in the draft lottery,but broke vertebrae in my neck a week after my 1A Ft.Hamilton physical.Spinal fusion ended my fledging army career.Hallelujah.
Just another sample of Trumps intelligence,and his propensity of having the common touch.
Funny how hard it is to separate the blacks from the whites these days… coz it’s all midnight-gray.
Google this: “Panic Mode: Khizr Khan Deletes Law Firm Website that Specialized in Muslim Immigration”.
Because, like the old Latinos used to say, “ubi bene ibi patria”. So, yeah… this guy is so patriotic, I need more than one barf bucket to show my full approval.
I hope posting a URL is Okay so here’s where the article’s at:
http://www.breitbart.com/2016-presidential-race/2016/08/02/khizr-khan-deletes-law-firm-website-proving-financially-benefits-pay-play-muslim-migration/
Majority of Westerners and for certain Trump supporters don’t understand that ISIS and Donald Trump are using a divide and conquer strategy.
This is confusing – I thought Putin and Donald Trump were working together to undermine American democracy, so that Trump can defund NATO, allowing Putin to send tanks into eastern Europe an rebuild the Soviet Empire!
Really, I heard it on NPR, so it must be true! But I don’t understand how Trump could also be working with ISIS on a divide and conquer strategy? Aren’t ISIS and Russia not friends? So confusing – maybe some two-faced slimeball media PR monkey can explain it all to me? Let me check the NYTimes and WaPo.
“The irony of Trump’s proposals about Muslims is that they partly mirror the Manichaean worldview of terrorist groups like Islamic State. Both effectively carve the world into a binary of Muslims versus non-Muslims, finding no space for complex identities like the Khan family that encompass both Islam and the West.”
In this way, Republicans effectively bolster and support ISIS, as they have with previous groups like Al Qaeda for years now.
You left out the Democrats…”effectively bolster and support ISIS, as they have with previous groups like Al Qaeda for years now.”
Be fair…
Also you left out the fact that ISIS and all of these so-called boogyman groups are made by the CIA/MOSSAD and paid by the US Taxpayers.
Kind of like a disease coming back to eat itself up….CANCER.
Who the Muslim Father’s DNC Speech Really Pandered To
Peter Van Buren Posted on July 31, 2016
https://www.antiwar.com/blog/2016/07/31/who-the-muslim-fathers-dnc-speech-really-pandered-to/
The Iraq War wasn’t a “mistake” but the worst crime of the 21st century with hundreds of thousands of innocent people dead because the US attacked and invaded Iraq. Captain Khan’s best defense against being charged with participating in this terrible crime is that he was simply following orders. Unfortunately that defense was rejected as a legitimate viable defense at Nuremberg over 60 years ago. As for Captain Khan’s parents, one has compassion in the way one always has compassion for parents who grieve over their dead son. However, and this fact should not be avoided or softened, their son was a witting participant in the terrible evil crime that was the Iraq war. This is a war, by the way, which was voted for and supported by their preferred candidate Hillary Clinton but which has been condemned by their opponent Donald Trump. Now one can disagree with my premise – that the Iraq War has been the greatest crime in the 21st century – but if one accepts that premise than Captain Khan is not a hero, Hillary should be held to account for her support of the Iraq War, and Donald Trump should be praised for condemning the crime that is the Iraq War
Good comment. Details of the Iraq War do matter and this story is an opportunity to push that history, which many Americans are ignorant of, into the present. For example, consider the words of this young woman in Iraq living under the occupation in May 2004, one month before Khan was killed:
On the slaughter of civilians by occupying forces:
On the outrage over the torture and rape going on in Iraqi prisons by U.S. soldiers and private contractors:
https://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/2004_05_01_archive.html
So, that’s the context in which Khan was killed by a suicide bomber in a car; a person probably not motivated by “radical Islam” but simply by the normal human desire to kick out an occupying force that was stealing a country’s assets while brutalizing its people.
But that’s a narrative that the American corporate media and the political parties just can’t stomach: Iraq was not just a mistake, not just a debacle, but a pre-planned war crime, whose architects and promoters should never be allowed another chance at creating such disasters.
I miss Riverbend. Is she still blogging?
I don’t think so but her archive is a great resource for the timeline of the Iraq War; it’s a more reliable source of historical information than, for example, the archives of the NYTimes.
Only U.S. citizens have constitutional rights, and the U.S. government is free to allow or exclude any non-citizen as it deems fit.
Khan was wrong waving the Constitution and suggesting that foreigners have Constitutional rights.
Who in the US has ancestors that are not foreigners?
Are you saying he and his family are not citizens? Perhaps you’d like to imply the third son (the child born here) is an ‘anchor baby’ and not endowed with the same rights as ‘true’ citizens whose illustrious ancestry extends back a few more generations.
Their child died serving this country, is this the best we have now? Smearing the parents for daring to speak up? For daring to voice their opinions? Would you be saying the same thing if he had been at the RNC and said the exact same words but directed at Hillary Clinton?
We are choosing which foreigners to let in and which to keep out, and whether we encourage lots of Muslims to come in or not, we’ll still be turning away people who could have been good providers and ancestors and heroes tomorrow. That part of Trump’s idea isn’t wrong – there’s no reason why we shouldn’t give countries where apostasy and proselytism are illegal a low priority in immigration, and give a high priority to their citizens who are persecuted for their religion, i.e. non-Muslims. But — the citizens and permanent residents of the U.S. who are Muslims need to keep that right and be allowed to practice it as freely as any other religion or belief, however much we on a personal level disagree with the religion. The irrevocability of accepting someone as a citizen and the reluctance toward accepting someone as a citizen are not contradictory, but follow one from the other.
Naturalized Americans don’t have constitutional rights?
if the question is whether trump’s ban on muslim immigrants would be constitutional, it’s easy to find opinions on both sides. here are three law professors who say it would not be constitutional. the constitution never has the final say about what is constitutional
You are wrong.
The special rights of “citizens” are delineated in the first
articles of the constitution, but the first 10 corrections and
elaborations (amendments), the Bill of Rights,
are not limited to citizens. It refers to the rights of
“the people.”
Your argument, which is a very common misinterpretation,
would mean that only citizens are people
and while that may be a common perverse belief in the
faking U$A, it is also a degrading perversity used to
separate humanity into levels of worthiness based upon
a love of privilege.
I should have continued to use the word “non-citizen” in the last sentence. I didn’t mean to imply that a naturalized citizen has no Constitutional rights, as some of you are interpreting the word “foreigner” as anyone from somewhere else, whether they are a citizen or not. I should state even further that I meant people who are not currently here legally, as legal residents have Constitutional rights. I meant: People in other countries (who aren’t US citizens).
To the suggestion that the US government does not have the Constitutional right to restrict immigration in any way it deems necessary, whether 3 law scholars make the argument today or 10,0000, until the Supreme Court says otherwise, or the Constitution is amended, please refer to: http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supreme-court/130/581.html
The power of exclusion of foreigners being an incident of sovereignty belonging to the government of the United States as a part of those sovereign powers delegated by the constitution, the right to its exercise at any time when, in the judgment of the government, the interests of the country require it, cannot be granted away or restrained on behalf of any one. The powers of government are delegated in trust to the United States, and are incapable of transfer to any other parties. They cannot be abandoned or surrendered. Nor can their exercise be hampered, when needed for the public good, by any considerations of private interest. The exercise of these public trusts is not the subject of barter or contract. Whatever license, therefore, Chinese laborers may have obtained, previous to the act of October 1, 1888, to return to the United States after their departure, is held at the will of the government, revocable at any time, at its bleasure. Whether a proper consideration by our government of its previous laws, or a proper respect for the nation whose subjects are affected by its action, ought to have qualified its inhibition, and made it applicable only to persons departing from the country after the passage of the act, are not questions for judicial determination. If there be any just ground of complaint on the part of China, it must be made to the political department of our government, which is alone competent to act upon the subject.
That’s wrong. It’s US citizens anywhere plus anyone inside the borders of the US. But beyond that, the US also has treaty obligations. For example, it’s not supposed to go around torturing people, regardless of their citizenship or geographic location.
Rights at the border are a gray area. Could the US government just shoot a foreigner in the head at the border and say “well, they were not in the US yet”?
Technically, I think the US government can deny entry based on anything they want, including religious belief. But is that consistent with the values the US ostensibly upholds, and is it actually a pragmatic thing to do?
I’m not sure I want more Muslims in America. I mean a few here and there make little or no difference, but substantially changing the demographics of the country like going from 1% to 10 % or something is something I am uncomfortable with.
America has a basic Judeo- Christian culture and English Common Law. Elements of Islam are incompatible with our national culture. For example, bigamy is illegal under US law but acceptable under Islam. Also, our culture of immigration is based on a historical context of having endless land and relatively few people. It’s not that way anymore.
We can be choosy about who we let into this country. Other countries are. The way we decide who to admit and who to exclude is through the Congress and the political process. It is essentially a political decision. They actually reduced immigration for a while in the 1920s.
http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/ellis-island-closes
Muslims are obligated to obey the laws of the land, according to Islam’s primary source, the Quran.
And an overwhelming majority of them do.
They have figured out how to live as Muslims within the framework and laws of the land, and are contributing to the progress of their Western societies in all walks of life.
Muslims first came to America as slaves. Some of them might have been the ones who built the White House. If not, then I am sure they helped built other things in America.
The message of the Quran is a continuation of Judaism and Christianity. At its core, Islam is the closest to Judaism and Christianity than Judaism and Christianity are to each other.
You need to stop seeing the Muslims as “others”. In fact, there’s no otherness. Our essence is the same.
> In fact, there’s no otherness. Our essence is the same.
we are more than just our essence. it’s up to each of us how much weight to give to non-essential characteristics. some (probably most) of us don’t like to be like everyone else, and that shouldn’t be a problem. stressing our commonality is not the best way to end violent conflict (nothing wrong with non-violent conflict). instead, we should accept and tolerate and enjoy our differences. that’s the way to the most interesting and beautiful world
Yes,
In the Sufi cosmology of the self that I adhere to, there are two entities within us:
1. The self, and
2. The Soul (or Ruh in Arabic).
The self is that individual “I” that is unique in each one of us.
The soul (in our terminology, for there exist other meanings and descriptions of the soul) is that constant light that is within each individual.
We consider that light to be constant and the same in each human being, while it is the self that is different and unique in each one of us.
The soul is our essence, and it is one.
The self reflects many qualities and attributes and states, and is an entity that changes.
See these eBooks:
http://www.zahrapublications.com/#sufismAndIslamicPsychologyAndPhilosophy
Indeed, we are very diverse. And this diversity reflects the Infinite-ness of the Reality that encompasses and permeates all other realities.
We, on our Sufi path, strive to see unity within outer diversity.
I was merely sharing my views. I realize a single comment cannot convey exhaustive thoughts and that we see things from different perspectives and come to different conclusions.
Why do nations that are majority Muslim demand to be called Islamic? How do they treat non-Muslims? They demand everyone respect their religion, but do they respect other people’s religion or lack thereof?
It doesn’t seem so.
I agree with you.
There are in fact those Muslims who do not treat the non-Muslims appropriately and respectfully. Many of them don’t even find the light within the non-Muslims.
We disagree with those Muslims and see goodness in everyone.
We follow the doctrine of Transcendent Unity of Religions. Look it up. Or google, The Perennial Philosophy.
There are as many paths to the Truth as there are hearts; regardless of their religious or non-religious paths, everyone has access to the Truth and is on a unique journey.
There are also those Muslims, and there are many, who respect the non-Muslims, whether they are religious or not.
I’d really like to ask people who make this argument if they have any notion of responsibility for the disasters the U.S. has created in the Middle East, and the massive flood of refugees swamping Europe as a result of the Libyan and Syrian debacle.
After all, the U.S. let in well over 100,000 Vietnamese in the immediate aftermath of the Vietnam War – many South Vietnamese military families, etc. – and that didn’t cause any problems. Nor did the further migration of Vietnamese boat people – refugees from the communist regime – in the late 1970s. All told something like half a million people, with few problems resulting.
Thus, I personally have zero problem with admitting families fleeing the U.S.-engendered violence in Libya and Syria and Honduras; sure there might be some problems but given the damage we’ve done to their countries, it’s the responsible adult thing to do.
Yes, perhaps, but our politicians makes that decision. It’s not dictated to us by foreigners. Anyway, it seems to me that that would be an excellent reason for not invading other peoples countries or overthrowing their governments.
Besides, in the 1970s we still had plenty of decent jobs to go around in this America. Trump said France isn’t France anymore. A lot of French people feel that way too.
I don’t hate Egypt, but I don’t want the U.S. to turn into Egypt. (like Turkey seems to be doing)
America can’t go on existing in a little bubble, pretending that aggressive illegal foreign wars have nothing to do with conditions in “the Homeland.”
A million Syrian refugees might be just what the U.S. needs for the general public to understand that such actions have consequences; what happens beyond the borders of the corporate media narrative really does have an impact on people’s daily lives.
I’m sure that’s how the natives felt towards the Europeans.
You know that’s not actually a counter-argument!
There was a protest against immigrants in America once. A native there held up a sign that said something like this: “You are all f*&#ing illegal aliens!”
Some natives then said that they were okay with those immigrants coming to America.
They were trying to make a point.
Yes, and we could damn well learn something from them.
Muslims in America are not destroying your ways of life, are not subjugating you, are not stealing your land, and are not colonizing you.
By and large, they are law-abiding, hard-working people who are helping America progress and prosper. They pay taxes and contribute in all walks of life.
There are those who have sacrificed their lives for America.
The restrictions on the Muslims to visit or immigrate to the U.S. are so much that it could take 7-8 years for some to get a green card if they are from certain Muslim countries.
Even the refugees have to go through a long vetting process.
Your beef seems to be towards the government policies, unless you are genuinely anti-Islam/Muslim. Are you?
What are the chances that with the current restrictions, processes and vetting, that the Muslims will ever become even 10% of the total population? They are not even breeding like the Duggars!
What we seem to have here is a way to trade lives for votes. Instead of lives for votes, how about votes for lives? If said candidate vows to save lives, maybe a vote for a positive policy to not keep adding lives to memorialize every Memorial Day. All modern wars are based on lies. So to have the mental gymnastics by candidates to give outrageous claims for sacrificed youths for “our freedom” are still, just lies. You want my vote? Quit lying, really, just quit fucking lying. Tell the world just once these worthless wars you keep sending our youths to “sacrifice for freedom” are really just for capitalist greed. Start a war, destroy a sovereign state, kill lots of youths, make a bundle on weapons, then use tax dollars to “help” the state that’s been destroyed. How about, just once, to quit fucking lying about your worthless fucking wars and try a new way to run things. Maybe, just maybe then, you’ll garner my vote.
“Khizr Khan’s sacrifice, losing a son in an American war..”
I don’t see that his sacrifice is any greater than that of the Iraqi mothers and fathers whose sons were slaughtered by the American ‘heroes’ who illegally invaded their country. His son died while participating in a war crime. While he may have thought his service was honorable, it is no more so than that of a German soldier invading Poland.
Since when is volunteering to fight against America’s designated enemies a “sacrifice”? I am sick and tired of the “thank you for your service” mantra. It has become a shibboleth the violation of which is seen as tantamount to treason. Sacrifice is what Muhammad Ali did when he refused to fight in an unjust and horrific war against a nation that never threatened America. He gave up almost everything for his conscience sake. Sacrifice is what MLK did, knowing full well he was a target. That is what Chelsea Manning did when she lifted the veil on war crimes, and forfeited her freedom, and will languish in solitary confinement until her death.That is sacrifice. Khan went out to kill America’s enemies in their own their own land as part of what many saw an unjust and illegal and deceitful war. His death is naturally to be mourned by his family and friends. That is a private matter. If his parents and others choose to see it as a “sacrifice,” that is their right. But don’t lecture the rest of us to participate in the politicization of his death. It just shows the amorality of Hillary Clinton that she would use an American soldier’s death on the battlefield and his parents’ grief to gain political mileage.. The accusation that Mr. Khan hurls at Donald Trump, don’t they also apply to Obama and the Clintons? What and who have they “sacrificed”? This has nothing to do with my supporting Donald Trump. I don’t intend to vote for either him or Mrs. Clinton. It has to do with groupthink about military service. I would be the first to volunteer to defend our country against an aggressor nation that is mobilized to invade our borders. But blind allegiance to go out and kill whomever is designated an “enemy” is not sacrifice. It is a personal choice or even duty, but it is not “sacrifice.” That the politicization of the Khan’s personal grief has seemingly resonated with so many reveals just how far we have to go to free ourselves from the deification of the military and military service. Respect, yes. Unthinking and conscience-free reverence, no.
You have articulated my sentiments better than I probably would have.
Thank you.
Excellent comment!
You’ve articled what I’ve felt better than I could ever have.
Sorry that’s “articulated” not “articled.” Also I didn’t see Si1ver1ock’s comment before I posted my own. Not trying to plagiarize… :-)
Thank you
Bravo!
Rico, beautifully written.
Does this mean that, to be accepted, “people from all types of backgrounds” must also agree with and support the actions of those institutions? Why does this matter?
The grim truth about Iraq is that the lives of thousands of U.S. soldiers and private contractors – along with the lives of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians – were wasted in the course of an illegal war of aggression whose object was control of Iraqi oil output. The architects of that debacle should all be charged with war crimes, from planning the war to importation of the torture program see in Abu Ghraib.
Now, do you think any Muslim would be invited to say that truth at the DNC? Hillary Clinton helped create that disaster for Muslims in 2003; the same is true in Syria and Libya in 2011. However, despite her wholesale slaughter of Muslims abroad, she’s willing to embrace them at the DNC – just so long as they go along with American imperial agendas.
So if we compare this to Trump:
Perhaps, but is that so different from Hillary Clinton’s candidacy? Either you go along with the corporatocracy and the empire agenda, or you are an enemy of that agenda, that’s what Clinton is really saying. And that also means every single word Hillary Clinton says about her domestic agenda is unbelievable; none of her domestic programs will survive her proposed increases in the U.S. overseas military budget.
What a choice for Muslim American citizens: vote for Hillary, who will direct wars of repression in Muslim countries while propping up savage dictators and client states who also repress Muslims, or vote for Donald Trump, who will try and repress Muslims here in the United States but who seems happy to abandon the bloodthirsty regime change and Cold War games that Hillary loves so much.
The only conclusion is that regardless of which candidate is selected, the American people are the victims of this process, not the beneficiaries. It’s a very strong argument for weakening the power of the Presidency, in either case.
I’m willing to throw a few Muslim Americans under the bus (temporarily anyway) in order to reign in the war machine. If our country were functioning properly they would have all the tools they need to secure their civil rights. If it isn’t functioning properly, we are all in trouble.
At least American citizens have the ability to fight back using all the rights and privileges the United States Constitution confers. What chance do drone strike victims have? Or the people of Syria or Libya?
Khan did not simply make a speech. He leveled accusations against Trump in the context of a political campaign using his own grieving wife and deceased son as political props. He later went on to call Trump a Black Soul.
If Khan actually had the ability to see peoples souls, his hair would have turned white when he met Hillary Clinton.
One passes judgment on others based on their words and outer actions. One doesn’t really know the inner states and intentions of others.
Many words and outer actions of politicians around the world reflect the lower self, which reflects qualities, such as anger, vengeance, ignorance, selfishness, ego self, doing unto others what one doesn’t want done unto one, lack of empathy, hatred, seeing otherness, desire for power and control, arrogance, etc.
Khan using the phrase “Black Soul” probably means the lower self/consciousness. And he is obviously passing judgment based on Trump’s words and outer actions.
It’s possible that if you sit down with Khan and have a meaningful and detailed discussion with him, he’ll realize that he really does not know the inner self of another person, and that he’s merely passing a judgment on them based on their words and outer actions, and that he said what he said in a state of deep emotion, anger, frustration and sense of loss (of his son) and fear (for what some people want to do to the Muslims).
Now, you tell me: Do you think that Trump is exposing his higher self (love, peace, generosity, forgiveness, seeing no otherness, lack of desire for power and control, selflessness, truthfulness, empathy for others, not doing unto others what one doesn’t want done unto one, etc.), or the lower self (with qualities opposite to those of the higher self) in his words and actions?
Now, you tell me: Do you think that Trump or Clinton is exposing their higher self (love, peace, generosity . . .)?
And which is worse, really – the one whose words and actions in a campaign season are in line with their overall agenda and their plan for office, or the one whose words and actions during a campaign season are a carefully constructed charade, a deliberately dishonest set of words and actions aimed at disguising an agenda built around personal greed and the thirst for power, a person who secretly relishes bloodshed and slaughter and the defeat of her enemies?
Which is the more dangerous, then, the thug or the liar? Difficult question; perhaps neither can be trusted?
And don’t tell me “we do not see things as they are, we see them as they are.” There is plenty of independent evidence out there to test these notions against, it’s certainly not “all in our heads.”
That argument is too simplistic and trusting, as if the shells politicians construct about themselves are who they really are, when so many of their political careers are constructed around deceptions. And yes, it is the job of investigative journalists to unravel these deceptions and reveal the inner workings of those in power; but this is also why the corporate media and the U.S. government is out to crush investigative journalism.
Note also that aggressive targeting of Muslim communities by FBI and undercover police continued under Obama much as it did under Bush and will surely continue under Clinton. In fact, Clinton will get away with it more easily than Trump would, as she is a “social liberal” who is “not racist or bigoted.”
[“Khan did not simply make a speech. He leveled accusations against Trump in the context of a political campaign using his own grieving wife and deceased son as political props. He later went on to call Trump a Black Soul.”]
He “sacrificed” not only his dead son, but his wife too.
Another perspective:
“Humayun Khan’s Army Comrades Remember Him As A Selfless Patriot”, at http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/humayun-khan-troops_us_57a09356e4b0e2e15eb7132c?section=&
Personally, I would never have given that speech at a political convention. It was bound to be politicized by all.
Yes, I agree with you. But knowing Clinton and this deception that has taken hold…I see it as propaganda…additionally, to the point where Mr. and Mrs. Khan was paid. Media propaganda is a devil. And it will buy anyone to keep the wheels rolling toward war and the military. You may find this disturbing…but it is worse when you’ve been duped by it. I’m not defending Trump by any means…I’m just saying that he fell for the bait (by saying something). This type of propaganda plays heavily on the emotions and will quickly start a brawl. That is what the MSM wants…it’s an evil game. Thanks for your thoughts, it’s always good connect with you.
@Sufi Muslim
One last thought if you are interested. I recently watched: CLINTON CASH OFFICIAL DOCUMENTARY MOVIE ( FULL ) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LYRUOd_QoM
What it did for me was to see the blatant lies and deceit of words vs. actions, in this particular case, the Clinton legacy. But please keep in mind that the author is a republican and cleverly omits the crimes on the right and AIPAC. None the less these crimes are results of investigations and simply exposes to everyone the depths of deceitfulness covered with compassionate words.
Why does Mr Khan not see he is a pawn? When his son decided to stop bullets with himself, where did his parents, Mr & Mrs Khan stand in that decision? The basis, justification for this country to send people into another country to stop bullets was completely false. Why was Mr Khan more upset with Trump than with Hillary and the Government?
We simply do not know for sure the inner states and intentions of others, especially those who have passed on.
We usually pass a judgment on others based on their outer actions, and sometimes our judgment reflects our own inner state.
Khan is using his dead son as a political prop to support the warmongering presidential candidate that voted to send his son to Iraq is sad at best. Did the Democrat Party hacks prepare his speech? That bit about, What did Trump sacrifice? was a good touch. What has Hillary sacrificed other than other people’s children? Has Khan asked her the same question? Maybe he should also ask her why she voted to send her son to Iraq. While I don’t support Trump’s position on a ban of all Muslim immigrants, it is prudent to do some extra screening as even Louis Farrakhan has suggested.
Why don’t you communicate with the Khans and get all your questions answered, instead of making assumptions?
He has stated that he was free to say whatever he wanted to say.
Sometimes, when we doubt others, we merely reflect the state of our own inner self.
Let’s be careful and watch over our inner self to make sure it reflects the higher consciousness and not the consciousness that is full of doubts and negative energies.
It’s not Khan who should be questioned, it’s the DNC and Hillary Clinton. But she doesn’t give press conferences, instead relying on her backers in the corporate media to spin stories in her favor – since she is Wall Street’s candidate, and Wall Street owns the corporate media, this is understandable. Are the corporate media going to give top billing to any Muslims who think the Iraq War was a debacle, a war crime? Of course not, and neither is the DNC, particularly when they’re backing a candidate who is pro-war. After all, the important questions are not being asked:
“Do you think the 2003 Iraq War was a good idea, or a disaster? Would you go back and do it again? Do you support similiar military interventions in the future?”
The problem is, we can’t have honest dialogues with politicians in this system, that’s obvious enough. Trying to engage their outer populist images is just engaging with a shell; the real person is entirely hidden from view. And often, when we doubt others, it is because their words and their actions have not agreed in the past; and we also know that staged media events come with scripts, regardless of who is running the show. Finally, the interpreter of all these events, the corporate media, is a dishonest propaganda machine that cannot be trusted, any more than Soviet-era official Russian news reports could be trusted.
Consider for example Trump’s response:
Except that the initial uprising against the American occupation in Iraq was a joint Shia-Sunni uprising motivated by anger over the occupation, the attempted seizure of Iraqi assets (the Bremer orders) under a “oil law”, the torture in Abu Ghraib, etc. It was this uprising that the U.S. government was fighting against; the ‘radical Islamic terrorism’ came later. Even this simple piece of history is glossed over by the corporate media as well as by Trump and Clinton.
So tell me, how can there be any “honest dialogue” in this world of media lies and spin, and with endless false and misleading statements coming from both candidates? More specifically, why aren’t the media reporters themselves doing their job? Why aren’t they asking the Khan family, “Do you think the invasion of Iraq in 2003 was a good idea?”
Of course, the media could have asked this of Clinton as well, but since they were busy trying to boost her over Bernie Sanders, that was not on the agenda. Lies and spin, that’s all we get.
The MSM should also do their homework on guests like Mr. Khan prior to his being on their programs.
What is Mr. Khan’s background and what are his connections to the Clinton’s, to Saudi Arabia?:
http://www.breitbart.com/2016-presidential-race/2016/08/01/clinton-cash-khizr-khans-deep-legal-financial-connections-saudi-arabia-hillarys-clinton-foundation-connect-terror-immigration-email-scandals/
This is why we have (or should have) dedicated professional research journalists to do the heavy lifting on individuals like Mr. Khan.
I would be interested to read an expose on Mr. Khan here at The Intercept.
Hillary Clinton and the DNC won’t allow just “anybody” to speak at her coronation.
That URL is hilarious. It reads like a parody of crackpot right-wing fury.
Good post Charlene. From Joe the Plumber to Khizr Khan, all personal testimonials of this type should be properly vetted and weighed. It never seizes to amaze me at how much larger than life these individuals become when the ideologues from both ends of the political spectrum attempt to construct a binary narrative that negates reality all together; in the case of Mr Hussein’s article the binary of religious and cultural exclusivity vs inclusivity is in play. The irony is that Mr. Khan’s son was not emblematic of the left’s purported love affair with diversity and inclusivity; rather, as a volunteer American soldier, he was the very embodiment of American exceptionalism and the practical fulfillment of the Bush doctrine..
Nobody in the media or any comments sections I have seen since Khan’s appearance at the DNC has mentioned that the “What have you sacrificed?” line is that it is a straw man argument. It has nothing to do with the discussion at hand, neither Trump nor the Clintons nor their children have ever served in the military. Trump took the bait of a straw man argument.
The ugly philosophy of Carl Schmitt reappears–as if it ever really went away.
The irony is that Mr. Khizr Khan’s son died in a war Senator Hillary Clinton voted for by “mistake”.
Is Hillary incapable or unwilling of learning from her mistakes? After Iraq, she pushed for Libya, also a “mistake”. Now she wants regime change in Syria. It never ends. It comes to reason that neocons in general do not view such interventions as “mistakes”, even in retrospect.
repeatedly voting for state-sponsored mass murder at every possible opportunity is not a mistake. it is a defining trait.
Not remotely a mistake. She went out of her way to not read the intelligence estimates before voting full throatedly for war.
I feel sorry for him. He lost a loved one. But i would feel hate against the Gov….
It was not a war defending america… This was an attack based on a big lie an hundred of thousants dead people… so the thing about patriotism has no room here.
No… Sorry!
There’s no contradiction between being a Muslim and being a Westerner, accepting its constitutions and laws, so far as my understanding of the Qur’an — which sets the framework for what Islam is — is concerned.
Obtaining residence or citizenship of a country, or visiting it, is akin to a personal treaty one makes with that country to obey its constitutions and laws.
This personal treaty (or commitment) is inherent when a person is born in a country.
Therefore, as far as I am concerned, obeying the constitutions and laws of the land is according to the outer code of conduct of Islam (aka Shariah).
Groups, like Daesh, are utterly un-Islamic in many of their pronouncements and actions. They do not represent the Islam of an overwhelming majority of Muslims, and pointing out how they are outside the circle drawn by Islam’s primary source (the Quran) is not that difficult of a task.
Overwhelming majorities of Western Muslims understand that, and they have figured out how to be Westerners, obeying the constitutions and laws of the land, while practicing their religious paths in many diverse ways.
While what is written in this article is based on an aspect of
the bigotry which is fairly common in the faking U$A,
it is disappointing that the article can easily be read as an
endorsement of another bigotry which has no problem
slaughtering hundreds of thousands of distant muslims
(and anyone else who happens to be deemed guilty by proximity)
in a perverse hypocritical lust for private corporate profits
under the vanity of a delusional belief that the faking U$A
gives a rat’s ass about human rights.
Clinton, Trump, ISIS, and their colleagues are all based on,
and share the same indifference to,
the brutal cruelty which they initiate and celebrate
in the name of their god of money and power.
Then that would be due to the inner state of the reader, who would see in it what she wanted to see in it.
These writers write short articles that focus on a few things they consider to be important, and want to emphasize.
They do not present exhaustive theses that touch upon all aspects and anticipate all possible scenarios of how the readers would interpret them.
Perhaps a reader can examine short articles within the context of what else the authors have stated elsewhere to get a more complete picture of the authors’ viewpoints.
We can always criticize articles after the fact, but this is far easier than sitting down and writing an article from scratch. However, the notion that racism and bigotry at home can be divorced from brutal slaughter abroad (or vice versa) is not supportable; this is what makes Trump and Clinton hard to believe.
One way to examine this is too look at conditions in Iraq when Captain Humayun Khan was killed (Jun 8 2004). See this on-the-ground perspective from May-Jun 2004:
https://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/2004_05_01_archive.html
Why aren’t these situational details part of the media circus around this story? The media doesn’t seem to want details, they don’t want questions like “why didn’t the invasion and occupation work out as advertised by Brookings Institution PR experts, Hillary Clinton neoliberals and Bush neocons?”
No, instead we have PR theater time – “Trump has tarnished the memory of an American soldier! Now everyone get down on your knees and pray to the god of American Military Power! This will solve all our problems!”
Khan is lickspittle working for the criminals who destroyed Iraq,and got their son killed for absolutely nothing.How many pieces of silver?
How anyone could come up with a different take is an exercise in propaganda and bad faith.
You do not know the intentions and inner states of other people.
You sit in judgment of others based on their outer actions. You do not have access to their hearts, certainly not the hearts and inner states and intentions of those who have passed on.
“You do not know the intentions or inner states of other people”
This argument could be made at trial in defense of any murderer or rapist. It wouldn’t work at a criminal trial, it wasn’t even offered at Nuremberg, and it is equally ridiculous in this context.
Stop evading the issue: was the Iraq War the greatest crime of the 21st century? If it was, why are you defending this criminal and the patents of the criminal who are using his death to score political points. If the Iraq War wasn’t the worst crime of the 21st century, tell us what was (and if you think the Iraq War wasn’t a crime or at least terribly wrong, please tell us why).
Judgments in courts are passed on the basis of one’s outer actions.
I wasn’t talking about that kind of judgment. I was pointing out the intentions and inner states of human beings, which one person doesn’t really know of others’.
Read this detailed analysis: “THE OCCUPATION OF IRAQ: WINNING THE WAR, LOSING THE PEACE”, at http://www.aliallawi.com/pub_occupationOfIraq.php
I wasn’t addressing what you wanted me to address. I was merely pointing out that we mustn’t pass judgment on other people’s inner states and intentions.
What if those who went to that war did that with good intentions?
One may judge their outer actions to be wrong, but one mustn’t pass judgment on their intentions and inner state.
I am pointing out A and you want to discuss B.
“What if those who went to that war did that with good intentions?”
So what? Hitler and the Nazis invaded Poland with good intentions based on the same kind of BS argument Bush used to invade Iraq; “a pre-emptive strike aimed at protecting the homeland from foreign aggression.” Some of them believed it, no doubt; others knew it was a lie but justified that lie because it was for “the greater good of the German people;” others cynically knew the Nazis were just a gang of thugs out to grab whatever they could get their hands on, and wanted their share of the spoils, and were willing to promote any lie in the name of personal greed. And if we accept the Ayn Rand ideological view, “greed is good!” – a very Social Darwinian notion, enrich yourself at other’s expense by any means available, be it war or fraud or theft.
This incidentally is why religious and other forms of idealism (communism, free market theory, etc.) are so widely distrusted; over and over we see con artists hiding behind such “uplifting rhetoric” while secretly holding ideas and agendas directly opposed to their stated ideals. Then they cover this up with crap like “ideals are like stars – we cannot reach them, but are enriched by their presence.” (John Le Carre, A Perfect Spy)
All in all, we cannot say what the “intentions and inner states” of the Iraq War architects were – but the fact is, those who carry out such atrocities should be removed from power, period. They are either well-intentioned but incompetent and stupid (A), or evilly-intentioned (but also incompetent and stupid)(B), but regardless, they should never again be trusted with important decisions.
Again, I was talking about A and you are talking about B.
Welcome clarity. This is a useful point that needs to be heard & will be hard to hear in the midst of the warring partisans using it only as an election-year attention hook.