The first presidential debate was a head-scratcher, raising profound questions like: What is that man doing there? Why is no one telling him to shut up? What is he talking about? And why is he sniffling?
In the few brief moments in which a scowling Donald Trump was not engaged in free association about himself, not interrupting Hillary Clinton, and not sniffling, a few matters of substance emerged. That’s what The Intercept staff mostly focused on during our live-blogging of the event. We went beyond fact-checking the event to add some much-needed context.
There was some unexpected news: Trump endorsed a no-first-use policy on nuclear weapons, something neither Clinton nor President Obama are willing to do.
Our reviews of the moderator, Lester Holt, were profoundly negative, especially about his refusal to control Trump and his decision not to ask the most important questions.
The sexist view certain male pundits have of Clinton was on full display before and after.
And don’t miss Jeremy Scahill on the hard-partying surfer turned master assassin who is Trump’s guest at the debate.
See below for what we posted, categorized by topic. Did the debate go as you expected? What did we miss? Tell me in the comments or on Twitter.
Moderator
- Lester Holt has one job, and he’s blowing it
- The moderator didn’t ask a single question about immigration and climate change
Sexism
- On Fox, Brit Hume says Hillary Clinton’s face was “not necessarily attractive”
- How many times has Donald Trump interrupted Hillary Clinton?
- CNN host already advising Hillary Clinton to smile
The issues
- Trump, to the left of Obama, pledges not to use nuclear weapons first
- Racial profiling is all “stop and frisk” was about
- Trump on rooting for the 2008 housing crisis: “That’s called business”
- Hillary Clinton’s touted “no-fly list” gun proposal is discriminatory and flawed
- Trump attacks Clinton for Libya position he shared
- Conservatives aren’t just backing Clinton because Trump is scary
- Trump infrastructure plan depends on corporate tax cut that would move jobs overseas
Fact-checking
- Hillary Clinton in the 1990s personally lobbied business to push harder for liberalized trade with China
- Trump lies about not calling climate change a hoax invented by China
- In 2000, Gore’s live fact-check of Bush tax plan was laughed off, and we paid the price
- Hordes of journalists are fact-checking tonight’s presidential debate
- “So what?”: In 1984, Bush official celebrated impotence of post-debate fact-checking
- Political consultant running Donald Trump’s Super PAC mocks fact-checking
Debate politics
- Why no third parties tonight? Because two parties control the process
- U.S. government advises other countries to include minor parties in presidential debates
- The questions you won’t hear tonight because they’re too good
- The hard-partying surfer turned master assassin who is Trump’s guest at the debate
- News networks promote the presidential debate like a football game, wrestling match
- As Trump and Clinton prepare, Hofstra students demonstrate for Black Lives Matter
Donors and sponsors
Just for the sake of precision: TheRump did not endorse a “no first use” policy. He said “I would certainly not do first strike.” First strike and first use are not the same thing; the former implies starting a war with a strategic attack with ICBMs and/or SLBMs while the latter includes tactical or so-called “battlefield” nukes, escalating a conventional-weapons war that has already started. In fairness to TheRump, he did say that once the nuclear line has been crossed “it’s over,” suggesting the inevitable escalation to all-out strategic nuclear war (and which is why the call is for Obama to declare a “no first use” policy), but it’s not what he said.
“I would certainly not do first strike,” Trump said AND then immediately contradicted himself by saying he wouldn’t leave anything off the table. Were you snoozing then?
Trump won hands down…he was so best prepared and in control. His mind was ‘crystal clear’ and focused from the debate’s first second. His great team had written a perfect script for him. And like the awesome preparer he is, he visited the men’s room and laid out his lines and dealt the first blow…like a true Warrior-Emperor of the Universe…which he is. That darn cold, ehmmm, ya’ understand.
“U.S. government advises other countries to include minor parties in presidential debates”
You’ve got to be kidding! That’s from an episode of ‘South Park’, isn’t it?
I am sure the headline was meant to read: Beyond Sniffles, Sexism, Empty Platitudes and Ingenious Empathy, What the Hell Was the Debate About?
As a 27 year old staff attorney for the House Judiciary Committee during the Watergate investigation ,Hillary Rodham was fired by her supervisor , lifelong Democrat Jerry Zeifman .
When asked why Hillary Rodham was fired ..“Because she was a liar,” Zeifman said in an interview . “She was an unethical, dishonest lawyer. She conspired to violate the Constitution, the rules of the House, the rules of the committee and the rules of confidentiality.”
the ruling class won the “debate” and will win the “election”
Clinton-Trump debate: A degrading spectacle
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2016/09/27/deba-s27.html
The US presidential debate and the war plans of the ruling class
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2016/09/28/pers-s28.html
Coke?? Is Trump snorting coke? Grandiosity, aggression, inability to sleep. Sniffles, you say. I couldn’t take my eyes off him. The contortions. Houston, we have a problem.
The entire point of the ‘debate’ was gone the second it became a self-directed circus.
Discard these sham ‘debates’ and bring back the REAL debates, run by the League of Women Voters.
Furthermore, include ALL presidential candidates in the “presidential debates.”
EVEN MORE IMPORTANTLY: Withdraw the Democratic Party’s, and the Republican Party’s, authority to operate as unaccountable PRIVATE organizations. They exist for the sole sake of obtaining PUBLIC OFFICE, and as such, they should be subject to PUBLIC rules and PUBLIC scrutiny.
• No party should dare to favour a candidate, let alone create a ham-fistedly manipulative dynamic where one candidate is presented as a foregone conclusion, while another candidate is first hidden, and then sabotaged.
• No party should be able to exclude any American of voting age from voting for a candidate.
• Super-delegates should only exist as a shameful chapter in the history books of future generations, who will learn that super-delegates were an antidemocratic insult to the American public, and were created to claw back what little influence the public had.
America might never recover from the fact that the DNC imposed Hillary Clinton where Bernie Sanders would clearly have won a fair contest. Clinton may be the only person in America who could POSSIBLY lose to Trump.
That wadn’t the first or pilot episode of “The Deplorables”?
The debate was another free advertisement for both bankster representatives. Don’t say shit. Thank you. See you next “debate”.
The debate wasn’t really a debate at all.
A real debate would have included all third party candidates.
“The spectacle is the nightmare of imprisoned modern society which ultimately expresses nothing more than its desire to sleep. The spectacle is the guardian of sleep.”
? Guy Debord, The Society of the Spectacle
The so called debates was merely entertainment for the sheeple.
And it was a “repeat” entertainment. There was nothing we had not heard before.
Where is the story that dovetails the debates? You know the opponents offspring and their offspring’s business partnership. Chelsea’s husband and Donald’s son or son-in-law are in some venture capitalist deal together or something?
I heard a lady on KPFA this afternoon musing about the birth of the empire of Rome when Augustus Caesar became its first emperor . Julius Caesar was Agustus’ great-uncle. The lady was musing about the Trump-Clinton empire of their grandchildren’s grandchildren and the fond memories of their ancestors opposing each other for president..and their successors who continued the “habit”
Where in hell is Greenwald,Scahill,and Poitras in all this mess?
Who? This is Mackey’s Town, now!
Kidding. Scahill turned up all-too briefly for the liveblog, Poitras is no longer with the Intercept (though remaining with First Look Media), and Greenwald is pretending to be Portuguese on Twitter.
Basically we’re on our own.
Well, I’m beginning to think the gist @ The Intercept is that Scahill, Poitras and Greenwald are more Management types … than labour.
Greenwald, or course, is still Prolific. You can’t shut him up really, but, yer right, I don’t speak no Portuguese ~ especially on Twitter! *on Debate D-day I found Glenn in a conference on ‘how to make the Media more Radical’ … as if the Media wasn’t Radical enough!
Go figure.
*>”Basically we’re on our own.”
Here’s a little something that always warms the cockles of my heart Maisie:
O/T
Meanwhile, look for this issue of Playboy to be banned in France:
Noor Tagouri Becomes The First Woman To Wear A Hijab In Playboy — The magazine hails the “badass activist with a passion for demanding change.”, at http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/noor-tagouri-playboy-hijab_us_57eb3777e4b0c2407cda7001?section=&
—- “We want to empower women so long as they show more skin, not less.” (Thought of someone somewhere —- body shaming, sexism — bad, hijab shaming– good.)
>”Meanwhile, look for this issue of Playboy to be banned in France”
Yeah, but the French will be conflicted about it. The French have always been a bit conflicted about ‘modesty’, imho.
*last time I was there, wimmins was laying around plumb nakied on the beach … and I had to avert mine eyes!
It’s good to see you, sufi. :)
Sure, but obviously Shariah Law has crept into Hef’s place, and he’s supporting passive terrorism: https://theintercept.com/2016/02/23/department-of-defense-white-paper-describes-wearing-hijab-as-passive-terrorism/
The very existence of Western civilization is at stake.
Someone should notify Pam Geller and that Frank Gaff fellow, Sarah P and Trump should issue warnings and Sean H and Wolf should do tee vee segments.
addendum
…. It’s like, …, like, …, building a mosque at ground zero. This is how mozlims are going to impose Shariah Law, one adult magazine and website at a time.
The Intercept continues to operate as an arm of the DNC. Extremely one sided articles that are obviously direct propaganda.
Trump crushed Hellary, it was obvious!
This debate was about how well Hellary’s doctors could walk the line between having a stimulated parkinsons candidate last 90 minutes, and not having a grand mal seizure on national tv.
Why should you care about Hillary’s health. Reagan’s Alzheimer was glaringly obvious (also diagnosed), he sought psychic interventions and advice and yet you would praise him like a God.
Thank God there’s a candidate running who’s worth voting for. Jill 2016!
If you are going to vote for Stein just stay home and do not drive your car and pollute our atmosphere with CO2.
Yay! Jill Stein rocks!
Shocked when Sec. Clinolton jabbed trump for attempting to do business with muammar gaddafi and Libya. I *still* feel betrayed by Pres. Bill Clinton’s pardon of Marc Rich, and others, on his last day in office. Rich was on FBI 10 most wanted list for tax evasion AND illegally making oil deals with Iran during the Iran hostage crisis. Sec. Clinton, when you live in a glass house… Dan Froomkin’s proposed question for Clinton yesterday expressed my feelings perfectly, “we’re all screwed”…
And here I was, foolishly clinging to the idea that the Intercept was at least making a passable attempt at being objective. Another dream shattered.
Clinton fall unconscious in public and you’re trying to make an issue out of Trump’s runny nose? Seriously? No doubt I’m a misogynist for even bringing that up.
Trump demonstrated yesterday what he always has: that he is not a real candidate but a blustering buffoon put up by the establishment against the unlikable Clinton to make her look better by comparison.
He basically humiliated not only himself but all those supporting him, and it is actually quite sad to see his fans refuse to see this. He is now pointedly throwing the fight, having never intended to win anyway. Both Clinton and Trump are puppets of the elite, and the game being played to manipulate the populace into being credulous about this manifestly obvious theater is one of the most cynical charades imaginable.
Trump’s supporters get the joke. Every time he says something stupid they believe he is poking the establishment in the eye. Truth, comportment, and respect are meaningless to them. They are laughing at the country like Donald is doing. He has said many times that he doesn’t need this job. He’s only in it for the attention he’s getting degrading every aspect of our way of life from the judicial system (a Mexican judge and an anti-police judge) to our election process (rigged! and it’s always when he is losing. He brags about using our laws to play the system while he trolls the “American People”, showing no respect for anyone (except Putin.)
Trump has thrown the contest too many times to count this year. Yet Clinton can’t seem to pull away in the polls. That says something about her.
Angel of darkness is upon you
Stuck a needle in your arm
So take another toke, have a blow for your nose
One more drink fool, will drown you
Ooooh that smell
Can’t you smell that smell
The smell of death surrounds you
–Lynyrd Skynyrd
Kick your Two-Party habit, vote 3rd party.
Holy bias article… I dont like trump either but he did quite well I thought. Hillary blinked about 500 times a minute too why not talk about that if we’re criticizing presentation
Yes,definitely something up with that.My wife laid it to the false eyelashes,but she looked like she was on methamphetamines,with that demonic look and posture.Adderall?Someone also said they had flashing lights coming from the floor for Parkinson’s symptoms.I doubt it,but with her,who knows?
And some idiot said Trump was on coke.No way,he was much too subdued,and nice.
What was the debate about? It’s about generating voter enthusiasm, by giving them a spectacle where they can root for their chosen side. This creates an illusion of participating in a democracy, in a manner similar to how fans cheering their football team are convinced they are helping to push their team to victory. Half the fans may temporarily be disappointed when their team loses, but they’ll resolve to cheer that much harder next time, to help create the margin of victory.
This analysis may be because I fell asleep during the debate and started dreaming about football. However, that doesn’t necessarily invalidate it.
“This analysis may be because I fell asleep during the debate and started dreaming about football. However, that doesn’t necessarily invalidate it.”
Certainly your analysis has great validity but from my perspective the fact that you fell asleep means that the debate failed utterly at what it was intended to be: entertainment.
My own prediction, which I did not refute because I simply did not watch, was that the debate was supposed to be reality television, along the lines of American Hero or The Apprentice, I think (but do not know because I do not confuse my opinions by watching them either). Anyway, being reality television, the person who was more likely to “win” was Donald Trump. Apparently there are some in the MSM who assert that he did win.
In composing this post, I have endeavored to emulate the processes that appear to be followed by Trump and at least some of his supporters, by not allowing either prior experience or information coming from outside sources to affect my opinions and prognostications.
According to Jake Tapper viewers were “glued” to their sets watching the debate all the way through. He made that declaration evidenced by whatever it is that they call the Neilson Ratings these days. He didn’t take into account that some of the viewers were asleep or otherwise distracted while the TV droned on and on unattended.
“This analysis may be because I fell asleep during the debate and started dreaming about football. ”
I completely sympathize with you. After half an hour watching the debate I watched a serial killer movie.
So, then, you remained true to your online persona? How unoriginally original… A bizarro you-un-you that is in keeping with the progressive spirit of the new age.
This so called debate, (didn’t waste my time), is just another foible to promote voting. Should I vote for the next(——-) fill in the blank leader, it will be Trump. As much as i think that he is narcisistic, a bloviating pig, he will further stonewall not one, but two parties in the gutless Congress and Senate which, as far as I am concerned beats that rag who already has the cross hairs on Iran, a stabilizing country in the M.E. Like ti or not, should that rag get “anointed’, we ain’t seen nuthin yet.
The banality of evil she possesses and displays is terrifying.
And the MSMs total support of said just makes them more disgusting,and revealing of their contempt for Americans,who can see quite well through their BS and the Hell Bitches disdain of US deplorables.
Has any other candidate been so demeaning of the opponents supporters credibility before?Romney’s take on the 47%,aimed at the HBs stupid trickle down piss minions,at least didn’t query their intelligence.
The pos is actually dissing American citizens,who pay most taxes,by championing illegals and furriners over her own people.
And notice NC was the first post debate destination,where she called for a boycott of her fellow American citizens over idiotic gender stupidity.A f*cking traitor.
These criminals are so arrogant in their belief in their own infallibility and goodness it makes the head spin.
Is Trump the perfect purist to lead US to nirvana,or utopia?
No way,no how,but he is the only chance to escape the clutches of zion,which has US in death grip of their neo feudalism and war forever for their own benefit,and not ours in any way shape or form.
And being that the overwhelming writers,sites and MSM are all predominantly Jewish,any garbage they spew has few kernels of truth for US.
They have an agenda,and American nationalism,what the bastards champion for themselves,is not negotiable for US,if they can help it.
And HRC is their agent.Trump is obviously not,hence the total opposition to him.And they’ve started innuendo of Adelson to further the haze on the American voter, quite eager to jettison Israel,outside of irreligious knuckleheads,their captive pols and the zionists within.
They will reap what they have sown.
You did a great job, one can’t really watch these debates without having a “pinch me” commentary up at the same time. I had you guys and NYMag going – I needed the double assurance, the one-two punch to keep me sane.
Nicely stated, Dan. Once again, the masses get to vote for the lesser of two evils, and the illusion of citizen participation continues onward.
Lousy candidates make for an equally lousy debate. I feel asleep pretty quickly.
Nothing there, no integrity, no solid plans, just superficial lying, by both of them.
I think voter turnout will be pretty low. As is deserved when the choice is so bad.
The first half of the debate was most substantive as it dealt with the economy itself. Yet, neither candidate bothered to pay lip service to historical economic benchmarks as pretext to advancing their respective economic plans for the country. For instance:
Net productivity grew 72.2 percent between 1973 and 2014 in the US, yet inflation-adjusted for hourly compensation of the median worker rose just 8.7 percent during that same Period. Approximately two-thirds of the compensation gained from increased worker productivity was realized by the owners of capital themselves. Since 1978, CEO Pay Has Grown 90 Times Faster than typical worker pay. Top CEOs make 300 times that of the average hourly wage earner.
The minimum wage it is currently 7.25/hr. If the minimum wage simply kept up with inflation since it peaked in real value in the late 1960s, current minimum wage should be $10.52 an hour. However, had minimum wage workers been adequately compensate for increases in productivity during that same period they would be making more than 21.00/hr today. In other words, only one third of a minimum wage worker’s productivity is being adequately compensated, while the remainder is being realized as compensation by top management and owners. The growing divergence between productivity and compensation is been realized by most hourly wage earners, not just those at the bottom of the economic ladder. This trend was set into motion by policy makers on behalf of elite capital interests more than five decades ago.
During the same period when the divergence between productivity and hourly wage earner compensation began to expand, union membership began to decline. In 1965, roughly one-third of hourly wage earners belonged to a union. Currently, ten percent of hourly wage workers belong to unions. During the 1960s, the Federal Reserve Bank operated with the understanding that an acceptable national unemployment rate of four percent was ideal to maintaining a healthy economy. After the crash of 2008, Alan Greenspan gave congressional testimony that the Federal Reserve Bank believed a sustained unemployment rate of 10% was optimal for the economy because the level of worker insecurity it predictably induced spurred the maximum productivity to profit ratio.
In a manner akin to Obama’s faux consideration of a single payer national healthcare system, Hillary dutifully paid lip service to an increase in the minimum wage to 15.00 while simultaneously pledging to support a “more practical” legislative proposal by Sen. Patty Murray of 12.00/hr. It was only because Sanders began to close the gap between them in their democratic primary race that she found sympathy for the plight of the common man and began parroting Sanders pledge of 15.00/hr. Now that Sanders is out of the race, she has returned to her 12.00/hr platform pledge. Support for unions has been expressed with a single sentence on her campaign website. Trump believes that individual states should dictate minimum wage standards. Although the AFL-CIO has taken a hostile position to trump in the past several months, its membership support for trump is currently on par with 2012 republican presidential candidates (40%).
5 minutes after the election, if Clinton wins, that “most progressive Democrat platform in history” will become toilet paper at DNC headquarters. Anyone who believes otherwise is a fool.
I agree. Clinton is more closely aligned with the interests of Wall Street than Trump and more beholden to them. Her economic plan hinges on her ability to raise corporate taxes at a time when there is an inherit risk of exacerbating a further outflow of employers form the US. Furthermore, Republicans are a majority in both houses of Congress. Hillary is blowing a lot of smoke from her Hookah.
On the other hand, Trump will attempt to reduce corporate taxes and further ramp up law enforcement and military spending to the potential detriment of discretionary spending.
“Trump will attempt to reduce corporate taxes”
Yea, but only for those engaged in REITs. It’s all about him. Haven’t you been paying attention? ;)
The moment she lowered her minimum wage expectations from $15/Hr to $12/Hr, she was already wiping her ass with it.
And her failure to stand against the TPP and Obama’s reprehensible support of it is frankly terrifying. Passing the TPP will spell the end of any effort to keep fossil fuels in the ground. She has to know that. We can’t be bullied by her supporters who claim any criticism is sexist in nature.
the debate was about the issues and the candidates, and about our future
who can lead us or at least “flavor” us most effectively is an open question
and we need to use all the tools in the toolbox
VIVA ESPARUNTA
Trump, against his lawyers advice, has revealed his
tax returns‘sniffling’ was due to a bad microphone (too sensitive?). Against my lawyers advice, I would like to comment further on Hillary’s rather aggressive ‘sexism’… but my hands are tied.>”What did we miss? Tell me in the comments or on Twitter.”
Sigh. Dan, this particular battle is over. .. I fear you have missed the war.
*Scahill has a glimmer …
” I KNEW that my God was bigger than his,” Lieutenant General William G. Boykin said of his Muslim opponent. “I knew that my God was a real God, and his was an idol.””
The tax return issue;Well as Trump has stated that he paid no taxes in certain years,and as the IRS,under this totally corrupt administration,has not issued any statement (yet at least)re his being in trouble,one would conclude it a herring,of some color.
Yes transparency is needed and good thing,but the Clintons’ are the most corrupt individuals in American political history,being worth 123? million,with no widgets,produce or any tangible legal avenues to that wealth, so his stance is quite correct.
Look at all the documented corruption,lying,and shamelessness being exposed about the Clinton’s daily in our media.
None of course,and Donald knows the deck is totally stacked against him,so why play their game?
Trump didn’t commit to no first use on nuclear weapons. He first said “no first use”. In the same answer, he also said he would not take any option off the table. One of those statements is wrong.
Given all the other points you’ve made about Trump lying through his teeth about easily demonstrable points of fact, why do you assume that he meant the first part of what he said but not the last?
Could it be that its because the Intercept, whose coverage I generally admire, has decided that they must push the “Trump is to the left of the Democrats” view, while at the same time claiming, pace Greenwald, that its not their job to take sides. If it isn’t your job to take sides, then why present an assertion as transparently ridiculous as “Trump committed to no first use”?
If he didn’t say that,why has the MSM run with it?(I only saw brief interludes,I don’t watch debates,its all facebook like nonsense)
Unless they think it a losing electoral position of course,and being evil scum,I’m sure they love the intimidation and fear first use implies.
She has repeatedly said she would use all options on the table re Iran,so what’s your concern,if a Hell Bitch minion?
Yes, Trump said “no first use” then *immediately* contradicted himself and said nothing is off the table. I found that quite striking during the debate. So it is really completely wrong to point this out as a contrast with Obama, et. al. It’s just another example of Trump saying whatever meaningless crap comes into his head.
Hey, Froomkin,
As a grownup, you should probably understand that, for the collective good, Hillary can’t be given access to nuke codes and a multi-million (wo)men military with a near trillion-dollar annual budget. Trump was right, our biggest concern should be ‘nukes’, especially if they fall under Hillary’s control, rather than golbalistic worming.
So, to answer your “what was Trump doing there” question, if you still don’t have the correct answer: “his job is to stop Hillary”. Why Trump? Because the Demos didn’t, wouldn’t or couldn’t.
The debate was yet another example among endless examples that demonstrate that THERE IS NO MEDIA.
Period!
Just endless drivel, whether it was Dan Rather claiming that President Kennedy’s head went forward (when he was one of the “select few” or mindless stooges who were first allowed to privately view the Zapruder film) or Brian Williams and his endless story telling — and I’m talking about on-the-air — or Pelley (look into who his granddaddy was someday, folks) or Trilateral Commission Charlie Rose (they only recently removed his name from their membership roster, he’d been on it about 30 years) or Anderson Cooper, who interned at the CIA during his summers while attending Yale, it is one long non-informational bilge!
And those two vermin on the stage last night probably well represent the sheeple of Amerika today!
http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t649/rreeves88/tramps%20and%20people/tall%20tramp%20right%20leg_zpsq47zwjhd.jpg
Yup
You’re just whining. At the end of the day, if consumers have a desire to separate fact from fiction, they have the resources to do so. However, Lester Holt also had a responsibility to play tie-breaker on disagreements, which he largely failed to accomplish.
Today there are several websites (NPR, WaPo, Politifact) just to name a few that provided annotated transcripts, some using Genius. That simply wasn’t as widely available in 2012.
And WTF does the Zapruder film have to do with any of this!?
Amazing how much dough that family extorted from the govt for that film,5 million?
Holy shite.Real patriots, they.
I’d say that neither major American party wants to meaningfully address (much less talk about substantively) the following:
1) A ridiculously bloated US military;
2) Said US military is the economic enforcement arm of the Western world, which Americans by and large fund to the exclusion of the rest of the “West”;
3) A low fossil fuel(s) consumption based “economy” (domestically and internationally) is the only viable sustainable long-term solution for all the globes human beings and diverse flora and fauna;
4) Transitioning to a low fossil fuel consumption based economy is the only thing that has a remote chance of mitigating some of the worst effects of anthropogenic climate change AND reduce the need for a US military the size, composition and use of which is incredibly wasteful (both economically and in human terms);
5) An unregulated global “capitalism” that is not strongly re-distributive (via progressive unavoidable taxation of corporations and relatively more wealthy uniformly all over the world) will ultimately fail;
6) Societies of human beings (governments, nations, cultures) do not, and normatively should not, operate on principles or theories of “market economics” rather than universal human rights and shared material prosperity being guaranteed to all;
7) Human beings better change their eating (and general “material consumption”) habits and quickly, because “how we eat” drives a lot of the fossil fuels we consume and ultimately anthropogenic climate change;
8) Donald Trump will do nothing meaningful to address 1) through 7) and Hillary Clinton will do only marginally more.
But hey, if Hillary Clinton is elected women will still have the right to terminate pregnancies before the third trimester (as they should); we’ll have a left of center Supreme Court possibly; 10s of millions of Americans will continue to be without for-profit health insurance (and/or health insurance that is economically useable); maybe 10s of millions of students will graduate from college with slightly reduced interest rates on their mammoth student loans; and, we’ll still be bombing the ever loving shit out of brown people all over the globe on the ridiculous pretext that we’re fighting a “boogieman” that is as much as a statistical threat to “Western” lives as bee stings and lightning strikes rather than an “existential” threat to “our way of life”.
Either way American’s kids, grandkids and greatgrandkids are going to get fucked and be left holding the bag. No wonder they aren’t very enthused about their futures. The world will be a lot like the movie Elysium–the ultra-rich orbiting the earth on a space station living extended long lives through technology, while the cannon fodder plebes fight each other for enough scraps to survive from day to day.
Or maybe I’m just really cynical today after having watched that shit show of a debate between two people that smack of almost everything that is wrong with American politics and society.
Wondering as of late that maybe sustainable living can only be achieved after there is peace on earth (seriously and this is not a Jesus message or religious thought). Beginning to think, setting the technical challenges aside, there’s no way to get to that economy unless the threat of war is eliminated.
Google has old trade journals archived; go back 100 yrs and look how Wilson controlled the coal & steel industries for the war. Their biggest fear (expressed in the articles) was Brazil not being able to supply high quality/quantity manganese to make steel – Russia could not supply.
You’re right neither candidate will reduce the likelihood of war or military buildup. Therefore, there is no chance in hell for sustainable living w/ either.
7)
i will be experimenting with sausage style vegetarian protein, in both patty and link format
we need to use all the tools in the toolbox to fight the future
Try protein from bugs. Or just become a vegetarian. Or a lobotomy or whatever. Just sayin’.
I actually hear insect protein is rather good. Annelids as well. (Alas, those I am stuck living with will not let me fry worms, even if I feed them applesauce to get the grit out of the system.)
well i had teh sylvania blue dot lobotomy today but as usual it didnt last
The debate is actually about the media that allows half-truths and dangerous language to pass as debate by a potential leader of the free world.
Where are the journalists that are necessary to beret and shame the ignoramus tRump into offering the many apologies he owes this nation and our allies ? What a disgrace.
I was on a long-distance drive during the debate and listened to the whole thing on my car radio. I thought Trump dominated the first third, did well in the second third, and only faltered a bit at the very end. Interesting to see people who I respect, and who watched the debate with video, not just audio, saying that Trump seemed lackluster and spent the whole time sniffling. No sniffles were detectable on the radio. His voice sounded a little deeper and softer than usual, but didn’t seem lacking in energy. I assumed he was holding back the tone of his voice to avoid being labeled a bully. Hillary seemed canned, over-rehearsed, and sometimes unable to keep up with Trump’s quick rejoinders.
Seems kinda like the JFK vs. Nixon debate, only Trump doesn’t have the option to match Hillary in makeup and hairstyling.
I think even in the first few minutes when he condescendingly said he wanted to make her happy by the way he addressed her showed his embedded sexism. He doesn’t even know that he has implicit bias. We should all monitor ourselves very well and dig deep to see how this happens in all areas. Related…I was amazed to see this article on what Princeton is doing about sexist language: http://isitfunnyoroffensive.com/princeton-bans-the-word-man/ Bring in someone who can lead without bias…Hillary!
Hillary has biases of her own. She has chosen to stay married to a man who used and abused hundreds of women. Bill Clinton may smile winningly when he degrades women, but degrade them he does. And Hillary led the charge to attack the integrity of those brave women that came forward to tell about Bill’s use and abuse. Talk about blaming the victim!
“Hillary has biases of her own. She has chosen to stay married to a man who used and abused hundreds of women. …
And Hillary led the charge to attack the integrity of those brave women that came forward to tell about Bill’s use and abuse.”
Shillary’s best friend Huma finally left her serial abuser of a husband. But only after Mr Wiener sexted a pic with their child in it …
pretty tough to look the other way on that one.
It was probably the first time Wiener had a child around, too.
Trump scored serious points by yelling at Hillary about NAFTA and “Free Trade.” She basically ignored it for whatever reason.
I guess Hillary’s best line was “Tumped up trickle-down economics…” Not bad. Hillary apparently was trolling Trump and Alex Jones about her health issues. She exceeded expectations simply by not keeling over.
The good ship Hillary stayed upright.
In some ways she reminded me of Mary Tyler Moore from the movie Ordinary People. I should probably watch that movie again. It’s that time of the year.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZYHe8IAlto
She ignored it because to address it honestly she’d have to admit she’ doesn’t actually oppose it whatsoever. Obama is looking to get it passed as we speak, so when Clinton gets in (IF she gets in) she can shrug and say, “Well I wouldn’t have done this but since Obama did we have to honor our obligations.”
Trump is wrong on a hundred other levels, but on TPP he is 100% right. It’s yet another giveaway to multinational corporations. These entities have more power than most countries and they pit us against each other to see who can lower taxes and deregulate to be the most ‘business-friendly’. It’s sickening.
Dan, a suggestion for the next time you do a live-blogging event: provide your readers an avenue to chime in! I felt like this was a missed opportunity.
Lester Holt deserves it, though he ended stronger than he started. When Clinton and Trump were disagreeing with each other over Iraq, he should have immediately jumped in. But I believe their risk averse-approach is to avoid a “Candy Crowley moment,” despite its legitimacy.
CNN truly is the worst. The most drooling commentary is there. I was watching a Bloomberg feed and they kept referring to the debate as a “game,” ( we’ll be back with more pregame and postgame coverage ). My advice after watching these is to download the transcript, read over any parts you may have misunderstood and then avoid the commentators like the plague until you form your own opinions.
Check out the number of follow-ups (Clinton had none) each one got while you’re reading the transcripts. I’m afraid that points too clearly to a wee bit of bias.
Also, the taller podium for Clinton. No male has ever gotten a taller, bigger podium because they were shorter. (Rubio? Dukakis? Nope.) Isn’t that sexism? I’m afraid so.
First off, I’d be willing to guess that the majority of Americans could not care less about the podium size. And that’s not sexism, its just a courtesy extended to shorter individuals.
It didn’t take long to find a follow-up.
HOLT: He also?—?he also raised the issue of your e-mails. Do you want to respond to that?
That’s a follow-up. Before you just count the number of follow-ups, you need to ask yourself in what instance is a follow-up necessary? I see it as necessary when the candidate is saying something that is veritably false, when the position or answer doesn’t address the question or is confusing, and if the candidates or in disagreement.
Trump’s campaign has been largely devoid of policies, so he absolutely deserves to have questions about their specificity. Trump claims he is going to create 25 million jobs and “bring jobs back”? You’re damn right that Holt needs to ask how. Clinton has released her tax returns, Trump hasn’t so he deserves that question. Trump lies that the IRS audit is precluding him from releasing them. Holt should not let that go unchallenged and in his defense he didn’t. Now look at what Clinton did on the e-mail/server issue. Instead of peddling excuses or falsehoods like she had done in the past, she apologized and the moderator didn’t have to address any falsehoods. Then Trump couldn’t capitalize on this. Trump then denies that stop-and-frisk is unconstitutional, which Holt addresses. Trump ignored Holt’s question about how he perpetuated the birther lie so Holt had to ask a follow-up. Trump says he didn’t support the Iraq war prior to invasion. Again, wrong. Holt follows up. Trump makes excuses and falsehoods over the “Hillary doesn’t have a presidential look” comment. Holt quotes him saying it. Trump initially doesn’t answer the question about whether he would accept the election’s outcome, so Holt follows up.
Are you seeing the trend here? If you are going to outright lie, you should receive follow-up questions. So your raw count of follow-ups may provide a nice talking point about media unfairness, but once dug into is a superficial argument that tries to mask Trump’s failures in the debate.
This was our first go at live-blogging, and allowing comments is something we should definitely consider adding. Any other ideas?
Dan,
Thanks for the response.
The only other thing that comes to mind is more general in nature. Has TI considered an intermittent podcast? I think it would be cool to hear TI journalists chime in on published articles, synopsize the week’s events, hold interviews, etc. I know Glenn has done a couple audio recordings in the past, and they were really good (the Glenn-Charlie Savage audio+transcript comes to mind). Anyways, I think it would be interesting to hear TI journalists interact, as it adds a more personal touch, can help explain complex issues, and is great for people who drive a lot or prefer audio. If available via the big time podcast players – Apple/Google Play – it could help attract new audiences to the site.
Otherwise, I thought you all did a good job of keeping up with last night’s frantic pace and maintaining visibility. I was watching via Twitter and saw TI pop up several times under the hashtag #debatenight. It’s what reminded me to check out the site.
“There was not the slightest intellectual substance or reasoned political content to the so-called “debate.””
Who is surprised?
How much money has Haim Saban (AIPAC) spent getting Hillary to do his bidding?
The $38 billion we just gave Israel …
Obama shedding crocodile tears for the little Aleppo boy …
America. We will get to see how much lower it can go.
Thanks for the link, Doug!
“It says a great deal about the US political system that, out of 330 million people in America, the choice for president has been narrowed down to these two individuals, both members of the financial aristocracy”
Yes the fair way would be to use the system they use in Syria, where the son of the prior dictator gets to run unopposed for the first two elections and then have the ruling party hand pick a stooges for the dictator to run against in subsequent elections.
I don’t know how you can say Trump endorsed a no-first-use policy when two sentences later he said “I can’t take anything off the table.” He directly contradicted himself, which means either he was lying about no-first-use or, more likely, didn’t actually know what it meant.
Trump contradict himself?
Nahhhhhhh
Hillary cheated us out of Bernie Sanders and they both cheated us out of Dr. Jill Stein. Just when you think it can’t get worse, you are proven wrong. Today, the MSM is concentrating on who is the bigger liar instead of what the debatertainment should have been about. We are literally in an existential crisis; if the nukes and frankenbiologics don’t get us; climate change will.
The audio engineer could have easily shut Trump up at the mixing board. It’s called a slider. Bring the level on Trump’s mic down to infinity for two minutes and voila! No more interruptions. But that’s not what Moonves bought. CBS (which now officially stands for Complete Bull Shit) brought the circus live to a hundred million people. The more an unhinged Trump went off the rails, the higher the entertainment value. This was a ratings bonanza. Television production at its finest!
Lots of lies and trivia and not much of substance; perfect entertainment for the feeble minded like the rest of US infotainment. Interesting that Trump who had a Hispanic person as Miss. Universe for the first time ever and now she craps on him. Same as the woman who Trump promoted to run his first big building when no one had ever given a woman that much power/responsibility in that field ever; it was a much more sexist country then and he was a leader in the promotion of women. She too is crapping on him. It reminds me of the cabinet members who crap on the POTUS who promoted them…loyalty, integrity, how quaint. If I was Trump, I would have done a much better job on Hillary and the political class of puppets he and the other rich buy as their political arm. I would have started by informing the suckers that despite the US corporate tax rate of 35%; no one including Trump pays it and they can get away with paying nothing, almost nothing or even getting public money because they own the politicians who pass these laws. I would have said, “I would cut corporate tax to a competitive level and enforce them, getting a lot more money. Remember Regan being surprised he was paying a lower rate than his secretary and it has only got worse. Can you people really not do better than 2 septuagenarian sociopaths?
So if you were Trump, you’d tell the suckers that the corporate tax rate is a joke that the rich, himself included, get around?
That’s some sound advice!
Here are Jill Stein’s comments on the debate again, sans punctuation errors, feel free to delete the last version:
Issue: Trade, jobs, taxes, education
What’s in ?Trump’s tax returns?? More information about shady business dealings, offshored jobs and ripped-off workers? Aside from cheating his workers, Trump has been taken into court for having cheated students. On top of cheating workers + sending jobs overseas, ?Donald Trump? ripped people off with a scam university.
What was in? Hillary’s Emails? ?Do they have information about deals w/ repressive Mideast regimes or selling U.S. uranium to Russia? Clinton even fought attempts to raise the minimum wage in Haiti on behalf of multinational corporations. Clinton supported dismantling aid to families with dependent children, which devastated poor families.
Instead of arguing about who’s the bigger crook,? Hillary Clinto?n& ?Donald Trum?p both need to level with the American people. Both the Dems + GOP represent the political + economic elites who are ripping us all off behind closed doors. I’m the only candidate who doesn’t take money from corporations, corporate lobbyists or super PACs.
Trump is talking about major tax cuts for the 1%. Both the Dems & GOP have a history of tax cuts for the wealthy. We call for an inheritance tax — what I call the aristocracy tax — and a progressive tax structure that cuts taxes for most people.
We have a generation of people who are locked in student debt. Time to bail them out. Free public higher education more than pays for itself — for every $1 we spend, we get $7 in economic benefit.
Issue: fossil fuels vs renewable energy and global warming
Full employment through a? Green New Deal? is the best way to create millions of secure, living-wage jobs. A Green administration will declare a climate emergency to create the clean energy jobs we need right now. Renewable energy is creating jobs at 12x the rate as the rest of the economy right now. This is where our survival rests.
Hillary and Trump are now on to the topic of “Birtherism.” What time are they scheduled to start answering real questions? Why don’t we talk about legalizing marijuana & hemp rather than Trump’s obsession with the ?birther? conspiracy? it’s telling that the ?birther? issue is a topic during the ?debates?. Don’t the American people care more about jobs, healthcare & justice?
Instead of this birther nonsense, let’s talk about? climate change? – the greatest threat to our survival. Trump promotes coal, while Clinton promoted fracking around the world as SoS. Neither will solve climate change.
Trump: “We refuse to believe the ship is sinking.”
Clinton: “The ship is sinking! Rearrange the deck chairs.”
Trump’s support for coal and Hillary’s support for fracking are threatening our very survival. Like the Standing Rock Sioux we must stand against fossil fuels & for a planet future generations can survive on.
Issue: police, prisons, immigration and race relations
Let’s set the record straight: Immigrants are among the most law-abiding, nonviolent residents of our country.
Stop and frisk was a disaster and an attack on human rights. Stop + frisk is clearly ineffective + it’s plain wrong. Let’s end systemic racism in our policing.
We see case after case of these heart wrenching stories, we must acknowledge the importance of the ?Black Lives Matter? movement. Unlike the Democratic Party who told candidates not to support ? Black Lives Matte?r, I stand with them for justice. We must acknowledge the ?Black Lives Matter? movement for standing up nonviolently to say no more needless killings.
“Peace and security are not just the absence of violence, they are the presence of justice.” – MLK
Murder rates have fallen, but our communities are still spending far too much on policing & incarceration. We must change the culture of policing & the militarization of police. Stop arming police with army gear. We need to make sure police forces look like their communities so that there is a common connection between them. We need action to ensure that communities control their police, instead of police controlling our communities.
We need opportunities for young people to reduce violent crime. We need to stop sending kids down the school-to-prison pipeline. Let’s emphasize education instead of the prison pipeline. We need healthcare as a human right, we need to end the War on Drugs, establish $15/hour, and legalize marijuana. End the War on Drugs, end mass incarceration. Neither Clinton or Trump will do these things if elected.
We must address shocking racial disparities in the economy, justice system, education, health & more. African Americans have 5 cents on the dollar in wealth compared to whites. This is unconscionable. The average African American has a lifespan 7 years shorter than the average white American. The legacy of slavery continued as segregation, lynchings, Jim Crow, police violence & mass incarceration. This is shameful. We need a Truth & Reconciliation Commission to address systemic racism in our justice system, economy & society.
The place where we need to restore law and order most of all is on Wall Street.
Issue: mass surveillance, cyberwar, nuclear weapons, hacking
The information leaked by ?wikileaks ?& ?snowden? has revealed major wrongdoing at the highest levels. If anyone was messing with US elections, all evidence points to ?DNC? rigging the primary against? BernieSanders?.
I’d be terrified with Trump’s finger on the button but I’d also be terrified with Clinton’s finger on the button. We need to be moving toward nuclear disarmament, something both Trump & Clinton don’t seem to support. Iran doesn’t have a nuclear weapons program but Israel & Pakistan do. We need a nuclear-free Mideast as 1st step.
We need an international treaty to prevent cyberwarfare. The Chinese are willing to join us on this.
Issue: Mideast foreign policy, regime change and terrorism
Military intervention in the Mideast makes things worse. Time for a new foreign policy based on human rights & int’l law. Endless wars have not made us safer, they’ve made us less safe. We need to end the wars now. Clinton helped lead the charge into Libya + Iraq. Trump supported the Iraq War. Neither has the judgment.
After spending trillions in Iraq & Afghanistan, we’ve gotten failed states, mass refugee migrations & worse terrorist threats. “Knocking the hell out of” terrorists has been very successful… at creating the next generation of them. Clinton herself said Saudis were the leading funders of terrorism. We need to freeze their bank accounts. We need a ?peace offensive? in the Mideast to cut off weapons & funding to terrorist militias.
The only one benefiting from this ludicrous foreign policy are the weapons corporations. The U.S. is the major supplier of weapons to all sides in the Mideast and around the world.
closing comments
This evening, I spoke to brave democracy advocates who risked arrest and demanded ?open debates?. Lots of name-calling & mud wrestling at the ?debates?. The American people deserve much better. The American people are clamoring for ?debates? with more than Clinton/Trump, the 2 most unpopular candidates in history.
Thank you to everyone who tuned into the real debate tonight!
You know, an edit function for comments would not be too hard to implement, would it?
Lester Holt is an establishment journalist, in this case, an establishment moderator. He was predictable favoring Clinton and his questions were very simple, the same questions than the establishment Media have been asking in their daily news every single day. Nothing new. I really would like to see a debate with Glen Greenwald as a moderator. That can be a real debate for these two terrible candidates.
That’s a good idea; in fact all TI could panel moderate or throw out ?s.
In fact, that’ such a great idea, IT WOULD NEVER HAPPEN.
Libertarian or Green : Rep/Dem :: TI : MSM
So you are saying Trump,with much more sane prescriptive remedies for Americas future(despite idiot denials) gets as good a press as the Hell Bitch,who is all for continuing the obvious terrible foreign and domestic policies championed by all the MSM bloviators like Friedman,Krugman,Kristof,Ignatius,Krauthammer,Milbank etc etc ?
Not in the least comparable,and as the MSM screwed Sanders and has obliterated your purist heaven sent messiah candidates Stein and Johnson into irrelevance,and are trying to sink Donald,your MSM equal opportunity for both parties is ridiculous.
But if Jeb or Rubio had won,the HB might have some competition for MSM favor,but as they are equal opportunists for zion,the HB will suffice.
How was he favoring Clinton?
The worst blind is the one who doesn’t want to see.
Lester kept rushing Trump every time he could. By the way. I don’t like any of these two candidates, they are the worst in the US presidency run that doesn’t mean that the previous ones were good, they just were not so bad.
Trump doesn’t have idea what he is talking about and Hillary is a pathological liar, warmonger, Wall Street’s candidate and on top of that she is in the pocket of the US Arm Industry. The Americans are in big trouble, they have to choose between these two people. This is what I call the beginning of the end of another empire.
If I didn’t want “to see,” why would I ask? Lester didn’t rush Trump. He pressed him on his bullshit.
Donald Trump is uniquely terrible. Politically inept and a moron to boot. Hillary Clinton is hugely disliked but at the end of the day is a pretty conventional politician, but with lots of governing experience.
Beginning of the End of an Empire? Sure, why not!! It’s not like you’re going to back that cliche up with a reasoned argument.
“… but with lots of governing experience. ”
That alone disqualifies her.
“Hillary Clinton is hugely disliked but at the end of the day is a pretty conventional politician, but with lots of governing experience. ”
What a clown. She’s practiced at fucking the public and you think that’s a feather in her cap.
Then you taunt the commenter for his lack of “reasoned argument” …
You are the unintentional snark-master.
The debate was the chance to deflate Trump however the only person on stage who actually has created real jobs and knows how to, is Trump. The economy is not the Presidents job. Hillary will be a failure, because she’s juts a lifer politician. Nothing else.
Actually she has held one elected office in her life,Senator from NY for a term and a half,where she failed miserably,being a main cheerleader for the War in Iraq,that billions around the world knew was idiotic,and failing totally in informing US to the reality of why we were attacked on 9-11-01.
Instead she became a puppet for regime change ,and when she assumed the SS,she became a key cog in IsUS,AlCIAda,and AlnUSra expansion and destruction.
Not once in her lifetime has she bucked convention or groupthink idiocy in stating any opposition to all this stupidity,and in fact a full on participator.
An evil robotic marionette of zion.
I could only take the first ten minutes of Hillary vs. Trump before having to turn it off, and instead followed Jill Stein’s Twitter feed on the debates, which was refreshing. Here’s all her comments, slightly rearranged in order, but following the debate topics pretty closely – enjoy!
Issue: Trade, jobs, taxes, education
What’s in ?#TrumpsTaxReturns?? More information about shady business dealings, offshored jobs and ripped-off workers? Aside from cheating his workers, Trump has been taken into court for having cheated students. On top of cheating workers + sending jobs overseas, ?@realDonaldTrump? ripped people off with a scam university.
What was in ?#HillarysEmails?? Do they have information about deals w/ repressive Mideast regimes or selling U.S. uranium to Russia? Clinton even fought attempts to raise the minimum wage in Haiti on behalf of multinational corporations. Clinton supported dismantling aid to families with dependent children, which devastated poor families.
Instead of arguing about who’s the bigger crook, ?@HillaryClinton? & ?@realDonaldTrump? both need to level with the American people. Both the Dems + GOP represent the political + economic elites who are ripping us all off behind closed doors. I’m the only candidate who doesn’t take money from corporations, corporate lobbyists or super PACs.
Trump is talking about major tax cuts for the 1%. Both the Dems & GOP have a history of tax cuts for the wealthy. We call for an inheritance tax — what I call the aristocracy tax — and a progressive tax structure that cuts taxes for most people.
We have a generation of people who are locked in student debt. Time to bail them out. Free public higher education more than pays for itself — for every $1 we spend, we get $7 in economic benefit.
Issue: fossil fuels vs renewable energy and global warming
Full employment through a ?#GreenNewDeal? is the best way to create millions of secure, living-wage jobs. A Green administration will declare a climate emergency to create the clean energy jobs we need right now. Renewable energy is creating jobs at 12x the rate as the rest of the economy right now. This is where our survival rests.
Hillary and Trump are now on to the topic of “Birtherism.” What time are they scheduled to start answering real questions? Why don’t we talk about legalizing marijuana & hemp rather than Trump’s obsession with the ?#birther? conspiracy? It’s telling that the ?#birther? issue is a topic during the ?#debates?. Don’t the American people care more about jobs, healthcare & justice?
Instead of this birther nonsense, let’s talk about ?#climatechange? – the greatest threat to our survival. Trump promotes coal, while Clinton promoted fracking around the world as SoS. Neither will solve ?#ClimateChange?. Trump’s support for coal and Hillary’s support for fracking are threatening our very survival. Like the Standing Rock Sioux we must stand against fossil fuels & for a planet future generations can survive on.
On ?#GlobalWarming?…
Trump: “We refuse to believe the ship is sinking.”
Clinton: “The ship is sinking! Rearrange the deck chairs.”
Issue: police, prisons, immigration and race relations
Let’s set the record straight: Immigrants are among the most law-abiding, nonviolent residents of our country.
Stop and frisk was a disaster and an attack on human rights. Stop + frisk is clearly ineffective + it’s plain wrong. Let’s end systemic racism in our policing.
We see case after case of these heart wrenching stories, we must acknowledge the importance of the ?#BlackLivesMatter? movement. Unlike the Democratic Party who told candidates not to support ?#BlackLivesMatter?, I stand with them for justice. We must acknowledge the ?#BlackLivesMatter? movement for standing up nonviolently to say no more needless killings.
“Peace and security are not just the absence of violence, they are the presence of justice.” – MLK
Murder rates have fallen, but our communities are still spending far too much on policing & incarceration. We must change the culture of policing & the militarization of police. Stop arming police with army gear. We need to make sure police forces look like their communities so that there is a common connection between them. We need action to ensure that communities control their police, instead of police controlling our communities.
We need opportunities for young people to reduce violent crime. We need to stop sending kids down the school-to-prison pipeline. Let’s emphasize education instead of the prison pipeline. We need healthcare as a human right, we need to end the War on Drugs, establish $15/hour, and legalize marijuana. End the War on Drugs, end mass incarceration. Neither Clinton or Trump will do these things if elected.
We must address shocking racial disparities in the economy, justice system, education, health & more. African Americans have 5 cents on the dollar in wealth compared to whites. This is unconscionable. The average African American has a lifespan 7 years shorter than the average white American. The legacy of slavery continued as segregation, lynchings, Jim Crow, police violence & mass incarceration. This is shameful. We need a Truth & Reconciliation Commission to address systemic racism in our justice system, economy & society.
The place where we need to restore law and order most of all is on Wall Street.
Issue: mass surveillance, cyberwar, nuclear weapons, hacking
The information leaked by ?@wikileaks? & ?@snowden? has revealed major wrongdoing at the highest levels. If anyone was messing with US elections, all evidence points to ?#DNC? rigging the primary against ?@BernieSanders?.
I’d be terrified with Trump’s finger on the button but I’d also be terrified with Clinton’s finger on the button. We need to be moving toward nuclear disarmament, something both Trump & Clinton don’t seem to support. Iran doesn’t have a nuclear weapons program but Israel & Pakistan do. We need a nuclear-free Mideast as 1st step.
We need an international treaty to prevent cyberwarfare. The Chinese are willing to join us on this.
Issue: Mideast foreign policy, regime change and terrorism
Military intervention in the Mideast makes things worse. Time for a new foreign policy based on human rights & int’l law. Endless wars have not made us safer, they’ve made us less safe. We need to end the wars now. Clinton helped lead the charge into Libya + Iraq. Trump supported the Iraq War. Neither has the judgment.
After spending trillions in Iraq & Afghanistan, we’ve gotten failed states, mass refugee migrations & worse terrorist threats. “Knocking the hell out of” terrorists has been very successful… at creating the next generation of them. Clinton herself said Saudis were the leading funders of terrorism. We need to freeze their bank accounts. We need a ?#PeaceOffensive? in the Mideast to cut off weapons & funding to terrorist militias.
The only one benefiting from this ludicrous foreign policy are the weapons corporations. The U.S. is the major supplier of weapons to all sides in the Mideast and around the world.
closing comments
This evening, I spoke to brave democracy advocates who risked arrest and demanded ?#OpenDebates?. Lots of name-calling & mud wrestling at the ?#debates?. The American people deserve much better. The American people are clamoring for ?#debates? with more than Clinton/Trump, the 2 most unpopular candidates in history.
Thank you to everyone who tuned into the real debate tonight!
HRC campaigns were allowed to blatantly steal the elections right before our eyes without as much as a word of protest from the media. What we are left with is two people putting on a puppet show. Clinton is supposed to win and trump will lose. Nothing will change. Why would it? Our voting system and the public’s ability to have any say is so open to corruption and manipulation as to be to be an absolute joke!. I have no idea why the intercept even pretends that it has any legitimacy at all… Why don’t you investigate the real voter fraud? the one perpetrated on the American people every couple of years?
A highly predictable debate between the worst US bipartisan couple for decades
http://bit.ly/2cYaZHy
Why use bitly links? They’re often malware phishing, never click on them, use getlinkinfo instead:
failedevolution.blogspot.gr/2016/09/a-highly-predictable-debate-between.html
..and isn’t dot ly associated w/ that country made famous by HRC? ccTLD for Libya?
These “debates” – format, moderators – have gone downhill ever since the League of Women’s Voters dropped sponsorship: http://lwv.org/press-releases/league-refuses-help-perpetrate-fraud
Sound familiar – 1988 mind you.
Not that pre-1988 was ever a pinnacle, but give me a break today (last night).
I noticed that the sponsor since then, Commission on Presidential Debates, was referred to last night as non partisan to which I yelled at my TV: NO, it’s bi-partisan and THAT is a MAJOR problem. My wife nodded.
This year the whole fiasco has really jumped tha shark with these two – and only two – chosen candidates along with the moderator and the whole stinking pile of crap.
Not that it really is going to make a difference because the first candidate – before I die – that says dismembering the Deep State is priority number 1 will get my vote.
Pete
PS
Yes, I have a pre-paid funeral.
“to which I yelled at my TV: NO, it’s bi-partisan and THAT is a MAJOR problem.”
You’re in good company Pete.
Well the people chose Trump,and the MSM let the Hell Bitch steal her nomination from the people.
WTF?Totally different.
I wonder- why doesn’t the LWV offer to host and organize a debate? When the campaigns turn them down, release a nice, scathing press release. (Hopefully they will include all parties that can win.)
As a side note, Trump may want to go to the Free and Open debate, even if he’ll get his clock handed to him by Stein and Johnson.
Most professional pundits, members of the East Coast political class, are saying today that Clinton won, but I’m not sure they saw the same debate as Trump supporters. It will be interesting to see if the debate really moves the needle for either candidate, both of whom played to type.
The following observation and tweet by @AdamJohnsonNYC about Holt’s poor moderating using weak language to supposedly describe and ask about racism in America was a typically great catch by Adam Johnson.
notice Holt uses the language of false parity, speaking in mealy-mouth concepts of “race relations, “healing the divide” & “racial healing”
https://twitter.com/adamjohnsonNYC/status/780759035155013632
I noticed that Clinton referred to “race” as the “reason” (I think that was the word) for several problems. Uh, no, Madame Secretary, that would be “racism”.
hilary will let teh healing begin
“hilary will let teh healing begin”
She’s demonstrated she believes in the healing power of blood-letting.
“blood-letting”
She uses leaches. You know, those one down there on Wall St.
Too busy to read the responses to your own post (certainly can’t call it an article) at your own publication?
Also, the eye- and brain-blurring sea of blue links to the badly misnamed “live blog” TI just ran simply calls attention to your apparent belief (which I share) that few people read them when they were posted.
Sorry, Dan, this is lame.
Exactly what I expected to read this morning: 10 newspapers orgasmic that Hillary could beat Trump by using his narcissism against him and this one about the issues, or lack thereof.
I thought they both did a good job of something,
The debate was a snooze fest. Over prepared talking points, same crap different day.
Both candidates suck, it’s fair to say that these are the 2 worst candidates I have ever witnessed. However, it wouldn’t have mattered which ding dong out of the 17 Republicans offered up would have been any better, and we all know that the DNC rigged their entire primary to where it wouldn’t have mattered who was in the mix the liberals were going to get Hillary R Clinton for their choice, come hell or high water.
They both SUCK!!
If you really want to help the country by voting for people who will try and make decisions that are in the best interest of the country instead of themselves or their so called parties, then your selection is neither of the above and should be Gary Johnson and William Weld.
Both have been Governors of states, both were re-elected after their first term and both left their states in better shape than they were when they got there.
They’re not egotistical men, they are more interested in tackling Americas problems from a team (working together for the greater good) standpoint rather than having a #1 and a #2. They don’t care who gets the credit as long as the problems get solved.
These are the men that we need, this is what it takes to get it right.
Hillary Clinton and Don Trump don’t give a damn if you live or die, that I can assure you.
Do the right thing for yourself, your family and and nation by voting for these men and help us take our country back from the current group of bag men that occupy the Executive offices, Congressional seats and Senate seats.
Its what Thomas Jefferson would do, I’m sure of it..
Can I borrow your time machine when you’re done?
Hopefully, people watched that sham of a debate and are now thinking maybe Stein and/or Johnson are worth a shot.
Given their answers, it is clear that Jill Stein & Gary Johnson won the debate. The Republicans & Democrats are worthless & need to be replaced !
Amen brother, or sister.
Is this an article? did you get paid for this? Must be nice to send links to twits and call it reporting.
The Presidential Debate that did not really Happen
Juan Cole first part of article follows …
Regular readers will know that in my view the 2016 presidential election did not happen.
Likewise, the first debate between the two candidates did not take place. There was no debate as the word is usually understood, where the two take turns setting out policy positions. A debate on policy would have involved staking out positions on what to do about Syria, or about ISIL in Iraq. Sec. Clinton did occasionally attempt to mention a policy (apparently the Kurds are somehow central to her plans) but was promptly interrupted by a hectoring Trump attempting to bring back the viewers to the character he was scripting.
He interrupted her 26 times in 25 minutes. For the first 20 minutes moderator Lester Holt, a Republican, was AWOL. He let Trump repeatedly cut Clinton off, badger her, and even take over Holt’s putative role, of asking her questions. If there is one rule of debates, it is that one debater is not allowed to ask the other the questions.
Trump also wove his alternative reality. In that world, he ceased his racist birtherism as soon as President Obama produced his long form birth certificate, and did the president a favor in making him publish it (something never required of any white president [i.e. from any of them]).
This is not true.
Juan Cole is CIA scum,another ivy league loser who said Libya was a wonderful freedom exercise,instead of the obvious terrorist enabling it actually was,but of course he knew the truth,and that Syria was next.
And TD(nein) might be the most propagandist truth denying site on the web,but it has many competitors,like the other truth site, out of mind also.
They changed commenting system because too many called them liars to their face,and even Consortium seems corrupted now.
Assholes.
Why is nobody pointing out Trump’s comparison between himself and Hillary with respect to her desire to impliment more regulations and he wants to deregulate?
In summary: these folks are the two worst people on the fucking planet to have as major party candidates for U.S. President.
Jesus Fucking Christ.
No, I wouldn’t vote for him ^ either.
In my haste, I failed to add:
• HRC comes across as a smirking bitch in that debate;
• DJT is just a plain ol asshole.
Excellent analysis of personality types – but they did a decent job of tearing each other down, a mutually destructive performance. That’s good, because regardless of which one is (s)elected, we should all do all we can to ensure none of their policies are ever adopted and that they remain lame ducks throughout their one-term presidencies. A shady corrupt two-faced political operative vs. a race-baiting self-aggrandizing blowhard – what an embarrassment for the country.
Thank you symbiosis. Previously I showed how they are dissimilar; I’d like to further my analysis by adding how they are similar; both candidates are selfish, lying, untrustworthy, pieces of poo.
I hate to speak/write evil of someone w/ their children in mind; sincerely, I wish these two did not have children so as not to offend them. Hoping the kids don’t watch or read news…
Sincerely,
C. Deception
Wow, this is some really hard-hitting “analysis”!!
Thank you Nate for the kind words of encouragement. I’m waiting for my big break as a heavy hitting political analyst/commentator — hope to be swinging the big boys and girls one day… fingers x’d