Tim Kaine and Mike Pence quarreled and quibbled over a number of issues Tuesday night, the central one being the condition of Donald Trump’s soul, but the biggest takeaway of the debate may be the things the two men agreed about — all of which are scary.
They agreed that Russia is evil and terrifying and must be aggressively countered. They agreed that the U.S. should militarily intervene in Syria. They agreed that the national debt is frightening. They agreed that community policing, a euphemism for doing nothing, is going to make everything better again. And they agreed to talk over the female moderator, Elaine Quijano.
The Intercept’s staff liveblogged the debate, sympathizing with the routinely ignored moderator, while at the same time marveling over the irrelevance of some of her questions – fearmongering about the debt and Social Security? Seriously? With all the real things we should be worrying about?
Glenn Greenwald wrote about how “Mike Pence and Tim Kaine puffed up their chests and grappled with one another over who can be more antagonistic to Russia and who can scare Vladimir Putin more.” In Pence’s case, this happened in spite of the fact that Trump has called for a de-escalation of tensions with Russia, which has in turn led to Democrats’ “repeated accusations that he is some sort of agent of the Kremlin.”
While Trump has favored isolationist rhetoric, both of their running mates sounded distinctly neocon themes in the context of the Middle East. Lee Fang noted that “Mike Pence broke in a big way with the top of his ticket on foreign policy during the debate, declaring that his administration would be prepared to ‘strike military targets of the Assad regime.'” Zaid Jilani pointed out that Pence and Kaine “surprisingly agreed on establishing ‘safe zones’ in Syria for beleaguered civilians,” while both also “failed to mention the troop commitments such zones would take to defend.”
Kaine and Pence also agreed on some domestic issues. Alice Speri wrote about how they both enthusiastically support community policing because “It sounds great. It means basically nothing.”
We noted that, in a debate that barely focused on the two vice presidential candidates themselves at all, Kaine ended up somehow straddling some wide moral chasms: He repeatedly noted his missionary work in Honduras, while ducking Hillary Clinton’s warm relations with military coup leaders there and their U.S. enablers; he spoke about carrying out executions even though it violated his personal convictions.
We fact-checked Mike Pence’s claim that he didn’t support Social Security privatization; his claim that foreign money isn’t at play in U.S. elections, and his assertion that our military is weak; and his assertion that Trump’s economic plans would help solve our debt problems.
And to kick the evening off, Jeremy Scahill exploded The Daily Beast’s cheap exercise in red-baiting with a post about Tim Kaine, John Negroponte and the Priest Who Was Thrown From a Helicopter.
Here are our posts from the evening:
Domestic issues
Foreign policy
Media
Sexism
The debate and the moderator
Fact check
Donald Trump
Hillary Clinton
Thanks for this analysis. I am particularly concerned by Hillary’s relationships and support for dictators in Central America. The US has created such devastation there and no one seems to worry about this. Kaine knows better from having been there. He knows the devastation of US involvement if he paid attention at all to Jesuit sensibilities and liberation theology.
Lasting Impressions of VP candidates:
1. Likeability index
Pense: 5-6 (a bit too pedantic and brusque; can come off as a bit condescending)
Kaine: 7-8 (A bit annoying with his constant disruptions of his opponent; often forgets that his role is merely that of window dressing for Clinton)
2. Presidential demeanor
Pense: 8 (Serious, intelligent and aloof; projects strength)
Kaine: 4 (A lot of intelligent, frenetic energy that invites a perception of impulsiveness; passion expressed as excitability)
3. Religious fidelity
Pense: 7 (Moderately sincere in what he believes; calculated appeal to conservative evangelical right; veiled fidelity to catholic sensibilities)
Kaine: 8 (Sincere in what he believes; moderately greater appeal to the secular via liberation type theology)
4. Political ideology (range; 1=extremely liberal, 10=extreme conservative)
Pense: 8-9 (Right center conservative; sober and pragmatic)
Kaine: 3-5 (Left Center liberal; moderately idealistic; apologetically pragmatic – willing to split the baby if need be)
5. Intelligence index
Pense: 8-9 (Confidently intelligent; good command of language; heightened level of equanimity)
Kaine: 9 (Quick witted and studied; a bit frenetic in his conveyance of passion-driven ideals)
6. Compassion Index
Pense: 4-5 (Cold, analytical and aloof; averse to allowing his heart to rule his head)
Kaine: 7-8 (More attune to the dictates of the heart; genuine desire to do good is not yet eclipsed by lust for power)
7. Asset to ticket
Pense: 8-9 (Even tempered, studied, and balanced; would make a better president then trump)
Kaine: 7-8 (Greatest asset to Clinton is likeability; projects a much higher level of sincerity and humanity then Clinton; not afraid to juggle and reveal a heartfelt level of moral ambiguity when faced with difficult decisions and tasks – mildly reminiscent of Jimmy Carter in this respect; Would be a better president than Clinton with the aide of a strong , experienced VP)
A much more informative missive than anything I have read about the debate.
Thanks.
Big Debt Problem + Troops in Syria + Putin is Evil + More Spending on US Military = Destroy Syria + Frack Oil + Invade Iran + Hike Oil Prices
Hike Oil Prices + Invade Iran = WW3
China has something like 55 recognised minorities amongst the ethnic composition of the country’s 1.2billion people, but of those 92% are Han Chinese and despite rumblings in the Tarim Basin and pro-democracy demonstrations in Hong Kong and elsewhere, it is for all intents and purposes a very strong, united and nationalistic country that would totally and almost unanimously reject the idea of either being subservient to or having its economic progress checked by a foreign power. Attempts to undermine this solidity are ruthlessly put down with little complaint from the vast majority of the population, who recognise the dangers they face to their economic growth and national security and are not exposed to the endless softening and dumbing down of the realpolitik as is the case in the West.
America has a population of around 324million people of a wide range of ethnicities few of whom are fully committed to the country in a way that they would willingly give their wealth or their life for the present power-elite’s benefit. They have a large and technically superior army, but again they lack the manpower to put boots on the ground in a global theatre of war, and they lack the morale to handle large volumes of casualties again for fighting “someone else’s” war. Therefore any political party that wishes to engage in a prolonged and global-scale hot war will need to ruthlessly put down widespread resistance to such aggression against foreign nations, huge waste of money, and unnecessary loss of life, going completely against the the ideas of the “Land of the Free” and the place where immigrants can always find a better life. The USA has never been involved as the primary agent of aggression in a world war and so is untested against a strong and determined opponent on the scale of China and Russia and any other allies. It entered the last two world wars late and has since then conducted campaigns only against seriously inferior opposition, a situation that has likely made it somewhat arrogant and believing in its own right to Destiny.
Russia is around 1,000 years old as an identifiable state and during that time it has been at near-constant war with opponents of equal or greater capabilities and has, despite some near-catastrophically self-harming actions, emerged on nearly every occasion stronger as the victor. In the recent past it also managed the transition from a Soviet-style closed system at loggerheads with the West to a far more open modern economy with relatively few problems and gave up most of its Eastern Bloc territories and cut back on most of its hostile military activities towards its former adversaries, yet it remains vilified in certain sectors of the West that benefit from the continuance of the idea of a “Cold War”. It is also criticised to lacking a free press and proper democratic process, despite both of these being now absent from the USA. Its lands are so vast and improperly understood by adversaries that they are often seen as its greatest protection, and despite negative propaganda to the contrary by the Western media, its people remain strongly behind its heads of state and its own identity as Russia.
Iran is arguably the oldest extant nation in the world and its realms have been the crossroads of history through which countless armies have marched. Despite this its people remain as they have always been: Iranian. And these peoples are the likely origins of Europeans and the very language we are communicating in now, brought by mobile horsemen superseding the tongues of the sedentary farmers of the Eastern Europe plains and pushing all those before them ever westward leaving the like of the Basques and the Finns clinging to the far-flung shores. Iran sits at the heart of Eurasia and forms the basis of all our wider histories, just as Africa’s Rift Valley does before it. To call it an insane and dangerous regime incapable of peacefully owning nuclear weapons and denying it the no rights to defend itself is hypocrisy on the part of the USA, both from its own dangerous imperialism and nuclear bullying and its ignorance of similar nuclear-armed states such as Israel, South Africa and Saudi Arabia that easily out-tip Iran on the insane and dangerous stakes.
I reject these men that talk of war, that talk of “American Exceptionalism”, that believe the world is only there for America’s elite to exploit and apportion to its favourites as it sees fit. Their call is invalid, corrupt, greedy, self-serving, hubristic, arrogant, illegal, hateful, megalomaniacal, disgraceful to humanity, and insane and will be remembered as such and their time of reckoning may be at hand.
As the primaries continued last year with Sanders and Clinton, literally all polling showed Sanders beating Trump consistently in double digits and Clinton only beating Trump by a few points.
Then the stupid Democrat debate scheduling was released showing debate dates conflicting with big football games, Christmas Eve etc. and people scratched their heads. Plus the number of debates had been significantly reduced.
Then the DNC hack occurred just before the convention detailing how the DNC’s “mission” was not to have a free and fair election season but that in fact Sanders was being thrown under the bus by the DNC in favor of Clinton.
Clinton and the DNC had the Superdelegates in the bag prior to one vote being cast.
Clinton was under criminal investigation by the FBI and the enthusiasm of voters, especially the youth vote was clearly with Sanders.
But the DNC and the Superdelegates chose the unindicted Neocon criminal who is incapable of telling the truth to be their nominee.
Now, here we are 30 some days from Election Day with two horrible candidates and their horrible running mates.
We could have had Sanders and probably a young Rep. Tulsi Gabbard as the VP candidate. Massive enthusiasm for Sanders and his platform of a “Medicare for All” healthcare system, free college tuition for those who qualify and can’t afford to pay, fair negotiations for drug pricing, a more just approach to the Israeli/Palestinian quagmire, no more regime change wars and on and on.
We had the chance to elect a real Progressive. Now we have the real possibility of losing the ACA leaving millions with no health care or the status quo of keeping it and Americans being gouged with higher and higher premiums and deductibles, the real possibility of WW III with either Clinton or Trump where I believe it would have been near zero with Sanders.
The Democrat Party and the DNC, by forcing Clinton on the country, a candidate who is completely compromised, lost the real chance of resurrecting the party of FDR and JFK.
Now, thanks to the corrupt DNC, we may very well see the electoral map turn red on election night as we witness the death of the Democrat Party.
A third party will take its place in 2020, if the world manages to survive until then.
It’s hard to offer an alternative vision to voters when you spend the entire time quibbling with your nominal opponent over who can pass the most extreme right-wing policies imaginable while lying about it.
The criticisms below of Alternet are at least partially, and significantly, misguided. I’m not a regular reader, but they host Max Blumenthal.
Blumenthal’s latest Alternet series on the sophisticated Western (not organically Syrian) PR campaign to promote regime change in Syria, a NO Fly Zone, and to get us all on board with worshipping the Western-founded White Helmets, is simply outstanding. It’s the very model of superb investigative journalism.
Part I: Inside the Shadowy PR Firm That’s Lobbying for Regime Change in Syria
It’s most unfortunate that many articles here on Syria are dreck by Murtaza Hussain. Much as it pains me to say it, Maz’s offerings on the White Helmets should be read in light of what Max Blumenthal reports.
Max Blumenthal Part II: How the White Helmets Became International Heroes While Pushing U.S. Military Intervention and Regime Change in Syria.
Actually I’m kind of happy with this election. A much worse election, in my opinion, would have been the Jeb! vs. Hillary election. If it were Bernie Sanders vs. Trump things would be better yet. At least in this election, Bernie and others got to have their say. BTW, Jill Stein is STILL running on on what is basically Bernie’s platform.
This is what change looks like. Messy.
Actually, the Green party platform was first….Bernie took much of it.
First, Bernie used much of what was already part of the Green platform. Second, Democracy Now! Runs an expand the debates show that allows 3d party to respond to the same questions. (Including tonight). During the VP debate Ajamu Baraka said things like, this is not a real discussion; this is dangerous, expressed disgust at the sexism toward the moderator…..I highly recommend watching the debates this way.
rr gets it exactly right:
I’d started getting a it wobbly on my intention not to vote for Hillary Clinton. But all this bellicosity toward Russia, combined with the sophisticated and ongoing PR campaign to induce leftist people to support war against Assad and Russia, has pushed me back to not voting for either her or Trump. (It’s probable, however, we’ll get war with Russia even if Trump wins. Trump wants the trappings of the office and to be be able to impose his will whenever something strikes him from moment to moment, but Mike Pence would make most policy decisions, foreign and domestic.)
We and the world are just fucked.
Love your post– and yes the US is fucked either way and we here in Canada will try to avoid the splash — but I don’t think the ROW is fucked– you guys tried hard by spreading financial war (i.e. 2008).
The Goldman Sacs Wall Street attempted takeover hurt some countries but some have rebounded (and one put bankers in Jail!!! imagine that!!). You guys are doing a great fucking other countries up just fine (Afghanistan, Haiti, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Yemen etc. — too long a list) WITHOUT Trump.
Clinton/Trump and their VP. Where these people come from?
what a question.. straight from hell of course !
They answered a casting call from the Military Industrial Complex. They passed the audition and promptly promised their soul (and health-Clinton) for power and money– age old story– but no one does it like the U.S.
The “debate” served to demonstrate the state of the “progressive” media than anything else. Today’s Intercept headline is the exact opposite of Alternet’s.
Of course, Alternet relies on Salon whenever the democrats fall flat. Thanks for a more reasonable article.
Alternet is unreadable democrat propaganda. If you are looking for critical leftist reporting read the counetrpunch.
Agreed– Counterpunch is great
That’s odd- both candidates make me LESS wanting to vote for their candidates.
*** Trump / Putin 2016 ***
Pity the nation that welcomes its new ruler with TrumpPutin,
and farewells him with hooting,
only to welcome another with TrumpPutin again.
Yes,that meme was probably why Pence got aggressive on Syria,to stop the nonsensical propaganda from the zionist serial liars.
Yes, I wish the evangelical zionists would quit lying, too.
Kaine got his ass kicked,and exposed HRCs judgement once again as shite.
And the MSM meme of the day;Trump is jealous of his running mate.Sheesh.
We are voting for DT not Pence,and he definitely has bad ideas re Syria and the world,but definitely less bad than the Hell Bitch and her fellow idiot running mate.
This really is the most depressingly absurd “election” in my lifetime.
The choice between a dog shit sandwich and a cat shit sandwich. But it’ll be a shit sandwich regardless of who is elected. So the citizens of America have a nice case of either toxoplasmosis or campylobacteriosis to look forward to the next 4 to 8 years. That is not to say both tickets or parties are the same, but the differences on the big stuff is marginal.
Hell at this point, I’ll be pleasantly surprised if Clinton and Kaine don’t spark a nuclear confrontation with Russia, and be pleasantly surprised with Trump and Pence if they don’t purge every non-WASP in America.
But that’s setting the bar so ridiculously low that I’m having a difficult time getting motivated to vote for anyone for the first time in 32 years. Stein or write-in Bernie or Vermin Supreme. Tough call.
Vote for Jill Stein. If she gets 5% of the vote nationwide, the Green Party will receive millions of dollars in public election funding and easier ballot access in many states. This will enable the party to run more and stronger candidates in upcoming elections, and give the corrupt Democrats and Republicans quite the headache.
“…in upcoming elections…”
uhh… do you really think there will be anymore elections?
I’d consider it more of an Old Tuna Sandwich (Clinton) versus a Cat-Dog Turd Sandwich (Trump).
I’ll take the former please!
About a 9/10 on melodrama.
That old tuna sandwich with the bad mayo could also do you in.
Careful there!
I genuinely hope you are right and I am wrong, and neither thing happens regardless of which of the shit sandwiches is elected.
I don’t have children or grandchildren. You likely do. So I hope for the sake of yours either of the shit sandwiches don’t do something epically stupid. But given their respective natures, my guess is they will try. As I’ve said in the past the only solace I find is in the institutional forces that may not let them.
LOL! Love your parasite/bacteria joke– so true!! Though with Hillary’s thrombosis– I am thinking snake venom… fits doesn’t it?
My heart goes out to you– to my American friends that ask me, I say write in (even if there is no provision to) who you want. You vote.
The job of a Vice President is to convince anyone who might wish to harm the President that his or her replacement would be worse.
Both vice-presidential candidates largely succeeded.
Well I think we need William Blum as president and Jeremy Schaill as vice president
how about amy walters ad mark shields for running mates.
My dream ticket would be Glenn Greenwald and Chris Hedges.
With the amount of drama that’s gone down at The Intercept, you sure about that!?
So true– but an added bonus (sic) of the Democratic VP candidate is that he is Wall Streets boy and god forbid!! if anything happens to Hillary IF she becomes President… well then the Goldman Sachs/Wall Street takeover will be complete…