From the start of the hideous Saudi bombing campaign against Yemen 18 months ago, two countries have played active, vital roles in enabling the carnage: the U.S. and U.K. The atrocities committed by the Saudis would have been impossible without their steadfast, aggressive support.
The Obama administration “has offered to sell $115 billion worth of weapons to Saudi Arabia over its eight years in office, more than any previous U.S. administration,” as The Guardian reported this week, and also provides extensive surveillance technology. As The Intercept documented in April, “In his first five years as president, Obama sold $30 billion more in weapons than President Bush did during his entire eight years as commander in chief.”
Most important, according to the Saudi foreign minister, although it is the Saudis who have ultimate authority to choose targets, “British and American military officials are in the command and control center for Saudi airstrikes on Yemen” and “have access to lists of targets.” In sum, while this bombing campaign is invariably described in Western media outlets as “Saudi-led,” the U.S. and U.K. are both central, indispensable participants. As the New York Times editorial page put it in August: “The United States is complicit in this carnage,” while The Guardian editorialized that “Britain bears much responsibility for this suffering.”
From the start, the U.S.- and U.K.-backed Saudis have indiscriminately and at times deliberately bombed civilians, killing thousands of innocent people. From Yemen, Iona Craig and Alex Potter have reported extensively for The Intercept on the widespread civilian deaths caused by this bombing campaign. As the Saudis continued to recklessly and intentionally bomb civilians, the American and British weapons kept pouring into Riyadh, ensuring that the civilian massacres continued. Every once and awhile, when a particularly gruesome mass killing made its way into the news, Obama and various British officials would issue cursory, obligatory statements expressing “concern,” then go right back to fueling the attacks.
This weekend, as American attention was devoted almost exclusively to Donald Trump, one of the most revolting massacres took place. On Saturday, warplanes attacked a funeral gathering in Sana, repeatedly bombing the hall where it took place, killing over 100 people and wounding more than 500 (see photo above). Video shows just some of the destruction and carnage:
Video shows double tap Saudi airstrike on funeral hall in Sanaa, #Yemen, today. Hundreds killed or wounded. Saudis deny, no word from US. pic.twitter.com/6TYlQWPrCN
— Samuel Oakford (@samueloakford) October 8, 2016
Saudi officials first lied by trying to blame “other causes” but have since walked that back. The next time someone who identifies with the Muslim world attacks American or British citizens, and those countries’ leading political voices answer the question “why, oh why, do they hate us?” by assuring everyone that “they hate us for our freedoms,” it would be instructive to watch that video.
The Obama White House, through its spokesperson Ned Price, condemned what it called “the troubling series of attacks striking Yemeni civilians” — attacks, it did not note, it has repeatedly supported — and lamely warned that “U.S. security cooperation with Saudi Arabia is not a blank check.” That is exactly what it is. The 18 months of bombing supported by the U.S. and U.K. has, as the NYT put it this morning, “largely failed, while reports of civilian deaths have grown common, and much of the country is on the brink of famine.”
It has been known from the start that the Saudi bombing campaign has been indiscriminate and reckless, and yet Obama and the U.K. government continued to play central roles. A U.N. report obtained in January by The Guardian “uncovered ‘widespread and systematic’ attacks on civilian targets in violation of international humanitarian law”; the report found that “the coalition had conducted airstrikes targeting civilians and civilian objects, in violation of international humanitarian law, including camps for internally displaced persons and refugees; civilian gatherings, including weddings; civilian vehicles, including buses; civilian residential areas; medical facilities; schools; mosques; markets, factories and food storage warehouses; and other essential civilian infrastructure.”
But what was not known, until an excellent Reuters report by Warren Strobel and Jonathan Landay this morning, is that Obama was explicitly warned not only that the Saudis were committing war crimes, but that the U.S. itself could be legally regarded as complicit in them:
The Obama administration went ahead with a $1.3 billion arms sale to Saudi Arabia last year despite warnings from some officials that the United States could be implicated in war crimes for supporting a Saudi-led air campaign in Yemen that has killed thousands of civilians, according to government documents and the accounts of current and former officials.
State Department officials also were privately skeptical of the Saudi military’s ability to target Houthi militants without killing civilians and destroying “critical infrastructure” needed for Yemen to recover, according to the emails and other records obtained by Reuters and interviews with nearly a dozen officials with knowledge of those discussions.
In other words, the 2009 Nobel Peace Prize winner was explicitly advised that he might be a collaborator in war crimes by arming a campaign that deliberately targets civilians, and continued to provide record-breaking amounts of arms to aid their prosecution. None of that should be surprising: It would be difficult for Obama to condemn “double-tap” strikes of the kind the Saudis just perpetrated — where first responders or mourners are targeted — given that he himself has used that tactic, commonly described as a hallmark of “terrorism.” For their part, the British blocked EU inquiries into whether war crimes were being committed in Yemen, while key MPs have blocked reports proving that U.K. weapons were being used in the commission of war crimes and the deliberate targeting of civilians.
The U.S. and U.K. are the two leading countries when it comes to cynically exploiting human rights concerns and the laws of war to attack their adversaries. They and their leading columnists love to issue pretty, self-righteous speeches about how other nations — those primitive, evil ones over there — target civilians and commit war crimes. Yet here they both are, standing firmly behind one of the planet’s most brutal and repressive regimes, arming it to the teeth with the full and undeniable knowledge that they are enabling massacres that recklessly, and in many cases, deliberately, target civilians.
And these 18 months of atrocities have barely merited a mention in the U.S. election, despite the key role the leading candidate, Hillary Clinton, has played in arming the Saudis, to say nothing of the millions of dollars her family’s foundation has received from its regime (her opponent, Donald Trump, has barely uttered a word about the issue, and himself has received millions in profits from various Saudi oligarchs).
One reason American and British political and media elites love to wax eloquently when condemning the brutality of the enemies of their own government is because doing so advances tribal, nationalistic ends: It’s a strategy for weakening adversaries while strengthening their own governments. But at least as significant a motive is that issuing such condemnations distracts attention from their own war crimes and massacres, the ones they are enabling and supporting.
There are some nations on the planet with credibility to condemn war crimes and the deliberate targeting of civilians. The two countries who have spent close to two years arming Saudi Arabia in its ongoing slaughter of Yemeni civilians are most certainly not among them.
The U.S. and U.K. continue collaboration in crimes against Yemeni civilians. This is done openly without need for classification in the name of national security. Or the need to hide the scandal from the U.S. electorate. The sex appeal is simply lacking for even mention in presidential debates though women and men are bombed together by sadistic Saudis supported by the U.S. and U.K.
Socialism vs Capitalism and war – Socialist anti war conference in Detroit :
http://www.socialismvswar.com/
This is insanity, and it’s the by-product of Hillary Clinton/her supporters’ long fear campaign to whip up anti-Russia hysteria , as well as those itching to challenge Russia in Syria. NBC: CIA Prepping for Possible Cyber Strike Against Russia.
That’s a “leak” also meant for Russia’s consumption. Because flirting with WWIII is so much fun.
Total insanity -the whipping up of anti Russia hysteria by Clinton and her war profiteer supporters is a sick and dangerous game to be playing.
The great diversion: Democrats focus on sex scandal as conflict with Russia escalates wsws.org
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2016/10/15/pers-o15.html
US/UK aid to Saudi Arabia is provided at the behest of Israel and its sayanim in those two countries.
What US/UK aid to Saudi Arabia?
Regarding the Obama-Saudi connection of annihilating another poor country for oil control, Yemen is the gateway to oil transportation, what a cruel mockery on Obama’s part of Black Lives Matter! Like Bush, Obama is a mass murderer. Hillary boasts about continuing his policies! No thank you.
In which a U.S. spokesman “reasons” like the militarists/Zionists/pro-interventionists in The Intercept’s comments section US spokesperson struggles with questions about the difference between bombings in Syria and Yemen
Oh.
I see.
Our good friends the Saudis are under a real threat, but those Russians so many are hankering to go to war with, well, argle, bargle, blah, blah, pffft….
The U.S. assists its murderous Saudi ally in slaughtering Yemenis, including children; at other times the U.S. exploits the humanitarian impulse to rouse support for imperialist invading where a bad man is slaughtering children — or said to be. The exploitation of humanitarian sentiment is ably explored in James Peck’s 2011 book, “Ideal Illusions.”
Peck’s book is excerpted here: Are Your Humanitarian Heartstrings Being Tugged in the Name of Empire?
When our heartstrings are pulled, it’s almost always to build support for intervening in foreign countries. The results of our doing so have usually been ghastly for the populations we “help,” and often also for our own soldiers.
Peck offers a thought experiment that brings in focus why so many hate Americans, even though we think we are brimming with good intentions and desires to do good, good, good. Peck asks Americans:
“The Obama White House, through its spokesperson Ned Price, condemned what it called “the troubling series of attacks striking Yemeni civilians”
Translation: We’re concerned it makes US look bad.
those defense jobs aren’t going to justify themselves!
As usual, Mr. Greenwald writes fantastical and to-the-point, and this time on a shameful situation. I’m ashamed to be an American tax-payer. Fuck these wars.
Every U.S. president starting with Nixon should be or should have been executed for war crimes, with the possible exception of Jimmy Carter (can’t think of anything he did, but perhaps I just don’t remember). If we’re going to have capital punishment, these are the ones who deserve it most, along with all of their billionaire masters who profit from this.
Right on Glenn, I totally agree. I’ve been really pissed off about this for awhile now, it’s about damn time some of the media beside The Intercept and Democracy Now! began reporting on it. Oh wait, I forgot; they’re not actually media, they’re corporate propaganda machines. So expect this to be quickly forgotten and/or whitewashed.
Thank you, thank you, thank you. I wrote you last year asking for your help with the horrific Yemeni genocide, and although I didn’t hear back, this article says it all…. Thank you for speaking for Yemen n our people who are being killed by bombs, skuds, guns, shrapnel, phosphorus powder, cluster bombs, lack of much needed medical attention, lack of food, lack of water, lack of electricity, they are killing us by starving us, blockading much needed aid in food and medicines, they have bombed our airports, squeezed us by strangling us economically: freezing funds, moving the central bank, not allowing us to receive money into the country or send it. They have deprived our children n youth of their education for the past year n a half, they have killed n maimed us n our children, they have created so many widows and orphans, most horribly they have traumatised n starved our children, both of which have frightening consequences for many years to come ensuring that our children now will never reach their potential, physically, mentally, or emotionally,and they know all that they do, n they just keep calm n carry on, because nobody gives a dann, we are just a bunch of worthless Yemenis right? Our blood is cheap. The Saudis, US, UK n many others are out Nazis… My daughter’s ask me why we have a war in Yemen, why do the bad guys keep killing…i just don’t know the answer to that. Is it for money? Power? Genocide? Salman n his evil son I think take pleasure in seeing the Yemenis suffer, they have a centuries old complex, but the US, the destroyer of nations,….. Obama I am so disgusted with… A hypocrite, he n his administration have blood on his/their hands,.NObel Peace prize Laureate, what a joke, the whole thing is a sham. The war must stop! How many more need to suffer n die. The U.S. will have its day in court just as the Nazis did. Thank you Greenwald from the bottom of my and other Yemenis`hearts.
The largest export of the US is war. Destabilizing entire regions of the globe is not an unfortunate accident, it’s a business plan. The more hatred the US can engender in civilian populations, the more certain the US War Industry is that its mission is funded and secure. Anyone who thinks world leaders strive for peace is grossly naive.
so right.
imagine what the US could do with the TPP. Rounding up citizens for not paying tax fines to corporat thieves. Scads of people wisked away thanks to the expansion of the NDAA and the global initiative jurisdiction. I am ready to believe that these dumb warfikker sfb political hoes for wallstreet saw Johnny English and concluded
It has come to the point that politicians no longer server the public, no longer earn their money. The are thieves who steal rights and power and hords of money and they always want more.
The smiley photogenic Canadian PM has also not demurred at selling arms to the Saudis for use in killing Yemeni civilians.
If only they were scowly and doughy and had bad hair, maybe somebody would notice the bleak moral vacuum at their cores.
“once and awhile”??? Voice transcription, perhaps?
Very serious, truthful, and revealing article —– and one of the hundreds of large (but still subordinate “symptom problems” directly caused by this Disguised Global Capitalist EMPIRE that is nominally HQed/metropoled in, and merely ‘posing’ as, our former country!
Glenn — for god’s sake FOCUS on the singular EMPIRE that is the ‘meta-CAUSE’ of this and all other problems on our earth, from the hundreds of little ‘identity issues, to the vastly more serious (but still subordinate) ‘symptom problems’ like; expanding wars, Wall Street looting, racism, environmental destruction, domestic spying/lying, the tips of the Empire’s 9mm slugs in the backs of blacks, and our entire “ailing social order” [Zygmunt Bauman] — which are all caused by this deeply hidden and under-diagnosed tumor of cancerous Disguised Global Capitalist EMPIRE that is “Occupying” America and employing the “U.S. state’s apparatus” of soft and hard super-powers to eff us all!!!
Empire is correct. But the USA isn’t capitalist. Not free market. It is rather fascist. Run by a tiny number of elites. An alliance of corporate and other special interests. With the most effective propaganda in world history: the main stream media. State education is indoctrination. Elections are a sham. Candidates are screened through a process that results in a status quo of endless wars.
Hmmm. No takers on what I asked yesterday, to wit: Where are all the pro-interventionists on Syria vis-a-vis the carnage in Yemen?
The ones who spew on the Internet The Syria Campaign’s PR-firm contrived accusations that those who oppose a No Fly Zone (it could start WWIII) but also support Palestinians, are hypocrites, who don’t care about dead Syrian babies.
If I’m a hypocrite, if Max Blumenthal and Rania Khalek are as well, what about all the rabidly pro-intervention-in-Syria advocates who say little or nothing about the horror in Yemen and dead babies there?
Does whataboutery suddenly seem uncool?
Mona,
You speak my mind. No interventionist has any credibility with me until they first work to end this unspeakable U.S. crime.
“If I’m a hypocrite, if Max Blumenthal and Rania Khalek are as well,”
Agreed, you are all hypocrites.
The death of civilians is always terrible and disreguard for civilian lives during conflicts should always be condemned. This is true in Syria, Palestine, Israel, Yemen, Chechnya or Iraq.
Interesting that you would bring up Syria in a thread about Yeman and then invoke complaints of whataboutery in others, this is not only hypocritical but amusing as well.
Mona
“…….The ones who spew on the Internet The Syria Campaign’s PR-firm contrived accusations that those who oppose a No Fly Zone (it could start WWIII) but also support Palestinians, are hypocrites, who don’t care about dead Syrian babies…….”
All anyone has too do to expose you and a lot of others below the line (here) as hypocrites is to return to the one article in the Intercept on Syria by Murtaza Hussain. During Operation Cast Lead it was all about the murdering Israelis. Mona’s reactions in Gaza (a very small sample):
“…….Israel is blowing the heads off of babies and targeting ambulances. Israel is evil…….”
“…….Five ambulances directly hit by IDF tanks and F-16s……”
Mona’s reaction in Syria to the brutal bombing campaign carried out by Russian and Syrian war planes targeting civilians, hospitals, clinics and even an aid convoy killing thousands:
(Nothing except the White Helmets are funded by the US.)
About 95% of the time I do not reply to Craig Summers, who is an authoritarian, pro-torture, Republican Trump-voter. Multiple commenters asked that I not reply to Craig because doing so causes him to post yet more walls of redundant, pointless drivel-text, which pollutes the board.
It is clear that for Mona and her ilk the issue is never dead children, only who the blame can be placed on.
Gil, Gil, Gil. How many times have I told you to GOOGLE before you question my fact claims. Similarly, now you see me say I had asked this same question “yesterday.”
Gil, you fool, did you never think to see what it was exactly that I posted yesterday? Cuz Gil, it went like this, my emphasis:
I seldom do this, but: LOLOLOLOL
That post certainly does not make you any less hypocritical when it comes to the death of Syrian civilians, Mona. Hussain’s thread could not be any more straight forward on that account. It took you nearly to the end of the thread to acknowledge (or is that admit) that the White Helmets saved innocent Syrian lives.
You and the other below the line extremists focused solely on the US funding of the White Helmets and that they support a no fly zone which is not unreasonable since over 160 White Helmets have been killed. The Children in Gaza are simply worth more politically to you. That’s the bottom line.
Craig Summers is referencing a thread in which Max Blumenthal’s spectacular two-part series on The Syria Campaign and the White Helmets was heavily discussed. This series went viral and continues to be the subject of much discussion.
Part I: Inside the Shadowy PR Firm That’s Lobbying for Regime Change in Syria
This is must-read.
Part II: How the White Helmets Became International Heroes While Pushing U.S. Military Intervention and Regime Change in Syria
What you are seeing and hearing from the media on Syria — including some major outlets online– can be understood only by reading this series.
Thank you for highlighting another shadowy PR firm, just like Bell Pottinger, who:
The Pentagon paid British PR firm $500 million to create fake al-Qaeda recruiting videos wsws.org
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2016/10/08/bell-o08.html
Huh? If you are going to ask a question and put that question in bold that is the question I am going to answer.It would be impossile to read through even oe full days worth of your drivel. The fact remains that my position on civilian deaths has been consistant , while your own has been that politics are more impotant. Oh and what “fact claim” of yours did I challange that was available on google? Or are you just spreading more lies?
Saying you dont use whataboutery and then doing exactly that. Too funny. How do you expect any reasonable person to take you seriously?
Only for select Whataboutery Kings:
That will include you. And you don’t like it applied to you, do you, Gil? I know Craig doesn’t. None of you fuckwitted anti-Paelstinain, Israel apologists do.
But you’re gonna see it a lot from now on, from me, when any of you pull a whataboutery or the hypocrisy charge.
Oh come now, Gil. You press the Ctrl button and the “F.” My name came up in this thread less that 20 times at that point. So…not only can’t you employ Google, you can’t do a simple name search? You could have spared yourself a lot of embarrassment if you had.
Formatting too early, before enough caffeine. None of this should be blockquoted:
Several. The first was snidely claiming Jeff Bezos was jealous of The Intercept’s owner for making money here — then doubting that TI was a non-profit when I told you it was. You stayed snide, asking whether I didn’t simply mean that TI didn’t make a profit. The total lack of advertising or subscription fees I noted din’t give you any pause at all.
Finally, I posted the announcement that First Look — the parent company — is non-profit. It’s easily found online. Whereupon, you had no choice but to concede. (I have the link to the whole subthread if you really need the memory refresher.)
There have been several instances like that with you. It is just plain stupid not to check an easily discovered point before publicly making a horse’s ass of oneself by implying or stating someone’s claim is not true.
Kinda like the “CTRL F” function can also save one from looking stupid. But then, you use whataboutery/hypocrisy charges all the time, so you are likely not too bright. That fallacy, and many others are staples of your “reasoning.”
Lets take your bogus claims one at a time Mona.
“Goose/gander means anyone ranting about the “need” to militarily intervene in Syria ”
Where did I rant about the need for military intervention in Syria?
And where did I rant about any action either way in Yemen?
Well, granted, that’s much more Craig’s shtick than yours. But you spew vile accusations in agreement with Craig on the Syria matter, to wit: that I don’t care about “dead children,” but only blaming certain parties. If you were anyone whose opinion mattered to me I’d be grossly offended.
But you are a dumb person, whose reasoning is very poor. And an Israel apologist who is all buddy with a rancid, authoritarian, Republican Trump-supporter like Craig.
So that particular nastiness about me and “dead children” is just part of the larger package of the ugly things you believe and do.
Ah now I see. So you admit lying about what I said and then try to justify it your lie by saying it ok that you lied because I am stupid. How utterly gross sand vile you are Mona. Agreeing with Craig on something that is true does not make me buddy buddy with him or in agreement on other statements he makes. The same way you being in agreement with nuf said on certain points doesn’t make you and anti-Semite.
Can you not read? What I wrote, which is true, is that you claimed to Craig that I didn’t care about dead children in Syria. That is, you implied I only care about Palestinian kids.
Very well, Gil: I charge you don’t give a shit about slaughtered Yemeni youngsters. And you are gonna see that from me many, many times, You better get working on proving that you do, in fact, care about dead Yemeni tots.
That’s how whataboutery works, Gil. Just like your rancid and vicious whataboutery about me vis-a-vis dead Syrian kids.
When you can show me where I have said that it is more important to highlight the funding sources and where rescue training was received in order to discount the work that people rescuing children are doing then you will have a case.
How is one ever less stupid by reading through your posts? And how did I look stupid by not reading the one you cited in which all you did was state how you don’t use whataboutery and then did just that ? too funny. That is actually the crux of your problem Mona you make rules to justify your lack of any real principles . You think you can say you don’t use whataboutery and that some how makes you immune from being charged with it when that is exactly what you have done.
” It is just plain stupid not to check an easily discovered point before publicly making a horse’s ass of oneself by implying or stating someone’s claim is not true.”
You mean like you denying that it was possible to run for President of Syria without the approval of the Baath party or those aligned with the Baath party, when not only was the information available by googling but even after I gave you the search terms to find it by googling you still denied it. So lets look at this I conceded a point when given the fact and you somehow look at this as a negative. But you refuse to concede a point after you have been shown the fact and you think that is positive. Do you have any idea how childish that is. Not to mention plain wrong.
I never “denied” anything about the Baath party, those aligned with it, running for president, blah, blah, and have no idea what you are talking about. You are making shit up.
Maybe you should check again Mona. This is pretty funny I get to prove you once again are lying by citing a thread in which I caught you lying about something else.
Here is the conversation:
https://theintercept.com/2016/10/01/syrias-white-helmets-risk-everything-to-save-the-victims-of-airstrikes/?comments=1#comment-289733
GilG ? -Mona-
October 2 2016, 2:19 p.m.
yeah why would anyone think there is anything unfair about an election that requires candidates to be approved by 35 sitting members of the parliament, and there are less then 35 members of parliament who are not Baath party members or aligned with the Baath party.
? Reply
-Mona- ? GilG
October 2 2016, 2:55 p.m.
Gil, bases on extensive experience of you, I trust nothing you state, including your conclusions. Either link to something deploying facts and logic to make your argument, or I’m not crediting it.
? Reply
GilG ? -Mona-
October 2 2016, 4:07 p.m.
Pretty funny once again the queen of hypocrisy who excoriated me for asking for a link about Rachael Maddow because it could be found on the internet with google. The same Mona who previously said “Link. Or it didn’t happen.” and then lied and claim she never said it, is now asking me for a link. Too funny. I will respond with instructions so you can take the advice you gave me and google it yourself
First look at the Wikipedia article you linked to on the Syrian elections and read the section the requirements for being allowed to run. then the google the Syrian parliament and read the section that details the number of members which are either in the Baath party or independents who are aligned with the Baath party. Then do the math. If the math is too complicated for you let me know and I will help you.
? Reply
-Mona- ? GilG
October 2 2016, 4:58 p.m.
and then lied and claim she never said it,
Oh for fuck’s sake. I never denied I said that. I denied I took the position you subsequently accused me of.
Again, Gil, given your record, I’m not crediting any of your fact claims or “reasoning” absent a link to some credible source setting it forth. That is, Gil: Link or it didn’t happen. [giggle]
? Reply
GilG ? -Mona-
October 2 2016, 6:37 p.m.
” I’ve never said a thing doesn’t exist without a link. ”
https://theintercept.com/2016/09/29/maybe-donald-trump-listened-megyn-kelly-instead-roger-ailes/?comments=1#comment-288733
your pants are on fire Mona.
? Reply
Nope. I didn’t lie, nor did I ever lie in this comments section (everyone lies interpersonally on occasion). You are very stupid. Moreover, I fully trust that anyone else who is not stupid or dishonest will, if they read through all of that, see that you are either stupid or dishonest.
I’ve moved on (back) to informative posts containing additional, useful information. You are, of course, unable to do that. Hardly erver. You very, very seldom post support/information for your claims or pertinent to the discussion.
Because you are a moron who doesn’t get that I’m hoisting your ilk on their own whatabouotery petard. That, Gil, is only one of the ways in which you look very, very stupid. You. Do. Not. Get. It.
What’s more, you will be seeing this particular whataboutery from me again, but only directed at those who’ve used it against me or those of my persuasion. More hoisting on the ol’ petard.
Those whose opinions I do care about do get it, and will continue to. What you think of my intelligence — or my deployment of selective whataboutery in a manner that is uncomfortable for your ilk — is less than irrelevant.
not uncomfortable for me at all. I welcome it because it makes exposing you for the hypocrite you are all that much easier. Or are you going to say, in you usual double standard fashion, that it’s ok for you to use it against me but I can’t use it against you? and again you just admitted I never claimed there should be military intervention in Syria so you didn’t hoist anything did you Mona ? All you did was tell more lies.
At a bare minimum, you are extremely hostile and vicious toward those who oppose U.S. military action in Syria, and extremely supportive of those who do. Anyone who wants to see evidence of that can do a Ctrl F with your name in this thread. You also make vile accusations there about me and others and our supposedly not caring about children because of our opposition to both a NFZ in Syria and to PR-promoted groups agitating for it.
Every single time you or anyone else (to whom I reply) uses whataboutery on me or those who share my views, you will get whataboutery right back. Petard. Hoist. Your own.
And now, I’m moving on — both in this thread, and elsewhere.
And finally Gil, rereading that Hussain White helmet thread I’m reminded that you employ this disgusting attack on me and others re: the not caring about children rather a lot. It’s offensive and vile. Between that and your stupidity and poor reasoning, I’m close to adding you to the 95% ignore list with Craig and Mani.
You will, of course, announce that you don’t care. But you do, so consider yourself warned. Any more abusive, vile shit about me not caring about kids, and that will be that. Most of my replies to you will become non-substantive, being only a notice about your vile and abusive commentary — and a mention of your stupidity.
Not only don’t I care, but I encourage you not to respond to me any longer. Your replies are already non-substantive, your responses to me on this thread have been nothing but lies about me and name calling. Besides you can’t resist not replying as evidenced by your attention seeking posts about how you don’t reply.
For the benefit of others: I usually post to a small minority of commenters who address or cite me that I do not substantively reply to them 95% of the time, but generally offer to answer any substantive points they make if asked by an good faith commenters who wishes to see an answer. There are always new readers here, and I would not want anyone thinking I cannot answer; it is that I will not, for the reasons I state in my announcement.
Feel free, Gil, to get yourself added to that list. Just continue saying vile and vicious things about my not caring about dead children. Your abject stupidity in so many things — including a complete misunderstanding of what the word “substantive” means — is incredibly annoying. So, it would be a relief.
I can’t find/access the video (referring to Oakford’s tweet). Anyone?
This is a special moment in history where anyone with 2 working brain cells can see the US’s and their allies’ militaristic criminality is used to dominate and/or destroy weaker countries.
There are no Saudi fighters, and no, there are no Saudi guided, or unguided, bombs.
What is worth discovering is how the US and UK include, in the price of weapons, the cost of keeping “public opinion” under control.
The whole of the *beep* ME is burning because of the greed of *beep* imperial powers.
Diabolical, Evil… such words don’t even begin to describe the level these powers have descended to.
Mr. Greenwald
“……..Saudi officials first lied by trying to blame “other causes” but have since walked that back. The next time someone who identifies with the Muslim world attacks American or British citizens, and those countries’ leading political voices answer the question “why, oh why, do they hate us?” by assuring everyone that “they hate us for our freedoms,” it would be instructive to watch that video……..”
This is a ridiculous and juvenile comment. The Saudi-led coalition consist of nine Arab countries participating in the airstrikes including Egypt, Morocco, Jordan, Sudan, the United Arab Emirates, Kuwait, Qatar and Bahrain. This is an Arab response to the overthrow of the “legitimate” government by the Shia Houthis. The “coup” was condemned at the United Nations in UN resolution 2216 which called for the Houthis to “….withdraw from all areas seized during the latest conflict, relinquish arms seized from military and security institutions, cease all actions falling exclusively within the authority of the legitimate Government of Yemen…..”. The Houthis have been armed by Iran so this has a strong element of another proxy war with sectarian overtones. This is yet another attempt by you to simplify a complex conflict into this is the fault of the US.
Additionally, the Saudi led coalition has intervened on behalf of the “legitimate” government of Yemen (recognized by the UN) using the same legal reasons as Russia is using to intervene in Syria. The bombing campaign by the Saudi-led coalition of Arab states is brutal as outlined by the UN and Amnesty International with clear war crimes committed by the Saudi coalition. Amnesty International outlines war crimes committed on both sides of the conflict (2015-16 report). However, anywhere from 30-40 times more people have been killed in Syria than Yemen – a conflict that you have written about exactly one time (that I am aware of) in which you criticized an Israel airstrike (why do they hate Israel?). No one is going to mistake this article on Yemen as motivated by the killing of civilians. This is another politically-motivated article couched in humanitarian concerns for another brutal war in the Middle East. It’s the US stupid.
Finally in an article published in the Middle East Eye earlier this year, a spokesman for Centcom denies US culpability for the death of civilians in Yemen (4-9-2016):
“……….US military officials have said they bear no responsibility for civilian casualties in Yemen……A spokesman for US Central Command (Centcom) on Friday stressed that the Saudis are the ones who decide which targets to strike………”The decisions on the conduct of operations to include the selections and final vettings of targets” are being made by the Saudi-led coalition, said Centcom spokesman Colonel Patrick Ryder…….”We are confident that the information that we relay and that the support we provide to Saudi Arabia is sound, and provide them with the best option for military success consistent with international norms and mitigating civilian casualties,” he added……”The joint combined planning cell meet regularly with the Saudi military leadership and provide recommendations about being in compliance with the law of armed conflicts.”……The US military provides intelligence and logistical information to the coalition led by Riyadh, which coordinates air strikes on rebels waging a civil war against the Yemeni government…….Ryder said US military officials “have encouraged the Saudis to further investigate” the alleged bombings, as it does any time civilians are said to have been harmed…….”
A very, very long letter of justification, Mr. Summers. It reads EXACTLY like the ones issued from the Pentagon justifying the Vietnam war to those who tried to ask questions.
My step father, in fact, wrote those letters…it was his job during the war. He admitted it was all propaganda lies privately.
I searched carefully for one shred of compassion in your defensive post… one tiny word of pity for those tragic victims of these attacks. You made no salutary word of pity and for this treason, I reject your whole post. I’ve read them before about Vietnam anyway.
I think you made a fair observation. Just don’t mistake most of the posters on this thread for having some compassion for the victims of the Saudi bombings (and the Houthis using Yemen civilians for human shields). As I said in my post (above) this is all politically-motivated. Simple anti-Americanism. If you have any doubts, go back and read the comments on the article written by Murtaza Hussain on the White Helmets (“SYRIA’S WHITE HELMETS RISK EVERYTHING TO SAVE THE VICTIMS OF AIRSTRIKES”). It’s probably one of the best examples I’ve seen of a lack of compassion by a below the line group of commentators focused on anti-Americanism. Greenwald is no different IMHO.
Thanks.
…..wow!….thanks for you comment…..
…yes, I do so remember Vietnam “reports” in which the government demonized the nationalists fighters and glorified our “friends” until we could not longer support our “friends”, then they were also demonized….depended on who was in fashion; like allies de jour….
….I admit to not being as informed as many who comment on Yemen….but, I cannot see any rationale, any humanity by bombing hospitals and civilians no matter who does the bombing, and no matter who supplies the bombs to do the bombing….
….accessories before and after the fact as war criminals…….
Please re-read the article to fully understand why the US and UK are culpable as much as KSA.
Please reread my response on why the US is not as culpable as Saudi Arabia. That’s ridiculous.
“wax eloquent” is correct
This is a truly import story about the highest crimes of war and torture which are carried out every day by the US led Empire of which Saudi Arabia is a part.
Never-the-less, it seems the habit of this author to cast condemnation, and well deserved condemnation, on ” American and British political and media elites love to wax eloquently” while in fact being very much a member of that elite club. No journalist who sets himself up, along with a select few other white men as the sole authority of the Snowden archive – deliberately foreclosing any opportunity for society or any community involvement in processing the archive is elite by definition.
When concepts such as inclusion, community or society never enter into the discussion, when public property and public information is sequestered in the hands of a tiny – and very elite group – that is elitism in the extreme.
The Intercept is part of a Neoliberal oligarch’s property, it is a corporation and it operates under our Neoliberal corporate rules – for example, the owner of The Intercept paid 1.1 million pounds in tax to the UK on more than 1 billion dollars in profit. One can not be part of such an organization and not be associated with its practices.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/oct/08/ebay-pays-11m-uk-tax-on-revenues-it-told-us-investors-were-11bn
Pot…kettle…black
1) eBay doesn’t own The Intercept
2) Hence, your summation dies a horrible death for lack of factuality.
The owner of eBay is also the owner/funder of the Intercept. The rest is a lot of legal mumbojumbo.
Not really. I’d be interested in any “mumbojumbo” you can provide that supports your claims, though.
Great article pointing out US hypocrisy. Thank you.
NPR spent a recent On Point program blasting the Russians for its use of cluster bombs and bunker buster bombs in Aleppo, all criticism warranted. But, when a caller told host Tom Ashbrook that the U.S. has no moral authority over the Russians in this case, Ashbrook simply attacked the caller, screaming, “What? What? You’re blaming the United States!” He went on like that for a few moments before going on to the next caller, who was a father of eight, calling in to say he was tired of the U.S. laying down for the Russians, and virtually calling for a war with them. Ashbrook said not a word.
I thought the space between the two callers would have been a perfect opportunity for Ashbrook to point out to his listeners that the U.S. is one of only a handful of countries–including Russia and China–that hasn’t banned the production and use of cluster bombs. Gee, maybe that was what the caller was getting at. He wasn’t saying the Russians are right or good, simply that the U.S. is lethally hypocritical when it comes to war.
But NPR’s spineless host, Ashbrook, acting as little more than a government spokesperson, would have none of it, instead shifting attention away from any discussion of the morally bankrupt actions of the U.S., to jump on a caller who had a perfectly legitimate point about America’s behavior when compared to Russia’s.
That was to be expected, I guess, as the show was simply anti-Russian propaganda, NPR’s current stock in trade it seems. NPR generally, and Ashbrook specifically, have become so implanted as pro-government, I’ve simply stopped tuning in the last few years, except to update myself on how slanted their coverage has become. The few times I’ve tuned in, the show could have been produced in the 60’s, as fixated as they’ve become with the Russians. It’s pathetic.
I couldn’t agree more. Tom Ashbrook is a reactionary masquerading as a liberal; his inability to consider nuance is glaring. NPR is a terrible news source, and Ashbrook is simply an “intellectual” lapdog for his bosses, who throw him jingoistic kibble, on which he chews and then regurgitates to his audience.
The bombs were identified as two laser guided 500lb Paveway II GBU-12s, manufactured by Raytheon.
No doubt we’ll honor that obligation as we did with refugees from Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria. . .
The US now has an obligation to take in every Yemeni refugee who wants entry.
Thousands protest Saudi bombing that killed and wounded over 700 in Yemen
By Bill Van Auken wsws.org
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2016/10/10/yeme-o10.html
The evidence that US and UK supplied weapons have been used in war crimes committed by the Saudis in Yemen :
https://www.hrw.org/report/2016/07/10/bombing-businesses/saudi-coalition-airstrikes-yemens-civilian-economic-structures
Awesome! Spot On!
This story includes a link to an article in The Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/aug/20/us-drones-strikes-target-rescuers-pakistan
Now the Guardian article links to an article on Salon also written by Glenn in this sentence: “Obama administration has redefined “militants” to mean “all military-age males in a strike zone”.”
The Salon article here: http://www.salon.com/2012/05/29/militants_media_propaganda/singleton/
This article produces a Page Not Found error.
Does this Salon article exist anywhere else? There are excerpts here: http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/06/u-s-labels-all-young-men-in-battle-zones-as-militants-and-american-soil-is-now-considered-a-battle-zone.html
I would very much like to read it. Thanks.
1) The article makes the point about “double taps” being a U.S. (etc.) strategy (“he [the President] has used that tactic”) but doesn’t remind the reader that intentionally targeting civilians is also a U.S. strategy, as the series of articles here about the attack on the MSF facility demonstrate. It says that the U.S. has no “credibility to condemn war crimes and deliberate targeting of civilians,” yes, but it does not explicitly say that the U.S. does it, which it does. Irregular readers of the Intercept may not realize that (and that it is going on under Obama).
2)
It is notable and telling that you equate profits with donations (you “receive” them both and Trump’s, uh, receipt of profits gives him the same conflict of interest that accepting bribes created for Hillary).
3) As George Galloway constantly reminds us, it is important to note that Saudi Arabia is the richest middle eastern country while Yemen is the poorest. Actually, the richest (per capita) country in the ME is Qatar (then UAE then Saudi) and Afghanistan is poorer than Yemen (though many don’t include Afghanistan in the “Middle East,” though the W admin did.). Regardless, for every $20 a Saudi has to spend, a Yemeni has $1.
4) Happened to read Raimondo on this before coming here; great to see the two best U.S. columnists start to beat this drum with more force. Anybody that still supports Obama needs to hear about Yemen.
“The wages of government employees accounted for almost half the the Saudi Arabian government’s spending last year: about $120 billion. And the country’s budget deficit, due to the collapse of the oil price, was $98 billion. So you can see why the government would go looking for some economies in the public sector. ” Better get the money while you can..Amerika. Expect oil prices to rise over the next year or two. Actually Amerika has an agreement with Russia to support (the devil Assad) as be best of bad options. The Russians are willing to release the text of the agreement but Amerika says no. The Turks are bombing the Kurd’s and have supported daesh until very recently and they are a NATO member. An Amerikan top General has admitted in public that Amerika should never have “temporarily” defeated the Taliban and you have to be a nut not to understand that Iraq and Syria were better off before the west meddled. Iraq lost 500,000 children under Bill C sanctions and his SS who was the evil equivalent of Hillary said in public it was “worth it”. The sociopathic scum who have run and are running the world will eventually be the end of us with nuclear war or climate change among other things from sociopathic capitalism doing us in.
Absolutely, Obama and his henchmen/women should be brought up on war crimes not only in Yemen but Iraq and Syria. So, where is the big mouth John Kerry? He wants to call out Russia for war crimes? Oh Kerry the hypocrite.
Kerry signed an agreement with Russia to support Assad and the Russians are willing to release it; for obvious reasons; Amerika will not. Hopefully Wikileaks will get it published. We are ruled by pure evil and it has always been that way.
When you’re already ‘vulnerable’ to war crimes charges directly (Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, and the drone death squad) and to crimes against humanity charges for support/collaboration/conspiracy (Israel), adding the lesser charges to the indirect list wouldn’t have been seen as that big a risk. Especially given that the ‘vulnerability’ is about as risky as the ‘vulnerability’ of those Wall Street banks/executives to charges over their crimes.
“…….When you’re already ‘vulnerable’ to war crimes charges directly (Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, and the drone death squad) and to crimes against humanity charges for support/collaboration/conspiracy (Israel), adding the lesser charges to the indirect list wouldn’t have been seen as that big a risk. ……”
And you really do care about war crimes Richard?
“…….Secondly, you have answered my question despite your attempt at burying it under the campaign to demonize the Syrian government for daring to not let the US dictate who governs Syria…..”
Idiotic statements which indicate a clear support for war crimes when it is politically expedient always come back to haunt you.
I agree that Syria should be left to Syria, except for humanitarian aid. Wouldn’t it be nice if US was attacked n the attacks won’t stop till Bush\ Obama/ Clinton step down…. That is just asinine
Aside from the indisputable general truth that “this (rapacious warmongers and enablers) is who we are, and who we have long been,” the specifics of the US-Saudi relation ship were agreed to long ago and have been honored by both dishonorable parties ever since: oil and cooperation in the region in exchange for support and defense for the House of Saud.
“I would take no action, in my capacity as Chief of the Executive Branch of this Government, which might prove hostile to the Arab people.” ~FDR to Abdul Aziz ibn Saud, in a follow-up letter to the Valentine’s Day, 1945 meeting aboard the USS Quincy in the Great Bitter Lake.
Well, that is, they have been honored except that the US forced acceptance of Israel on the unwilling Saudis:
“I’m sorry, gentlemen, but I have to answer to hundreds of thousands who are anxious for the success of Zionism. I do not have hundreds of thousands of Arabs among my constituents.” ~Harry Truman to the US ambassadors to the ME nations who had been recalled to Washington for “consultations.”
Plus ça change. . .
Doug
“…….Aside from the indisputable general truth that “this (rapacious warmongers and enablers) is who we are, and who we have long been…..”
Again, I question your use of “we” which in this case implies you are an American citizen.
“…….Well, that is, they have been honored except that the US forced acceptance of Israel on the unwilling Saudis……”
They certainly didn’t accept Israel for a long time, but geopolitical reality – like the regional battle for supremacy with Iran – has forced the Saudis to accept Israel. There is no place quite like the Middle East where “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” rings true throughout the region.
@photosymbiosis
Bingo. The fact is Russia believes it has vital interests at risk in Syria. It doesn’t matter one iota whether anyone else agrees these interests are actually that important — what matters is that Russia believes it.
The U.S. believes it has vital interests in the Saudis. Hence, the above article that bears the headline: U.S. and U.K. Continue to Actively Participate in Saudi War Crimes, Targeting of Yemeni Civilians
But, the fact is – these “vital interests” are nothing but cash cows for billionaires. The U.S. public has no need for Saudi oil; but Wall Street likes all that Saudi money and it keeps profit margins high for defense contractors like Lockheed and Raytheon and Boeing – and, if pushed, media figures like Wolf Blitzman will call this whole evil program a “U.S. jobs program.” Sure, let’s bring slavery back because slave ships and manacles were good jobs programs for the Northern U.S. economy in 1850.
And furthermore, it’s just blatant greed – the whole Syria war broke out after Assad rejected a pipeline deal from the U.S./Saudi/Qatar group in favor of one from the Iran/Russia group. Why can’t the two parties share pipeline capacity? 50-50, less profits for each – unacceptable! The greedy pigs have to have the whole pie, no sharing allowed, who cares how many people we slaughter as a result? Come on, billionaires don’t become billionaires by sharing anything, it’s go for the kill, each and every time, the lion’s share is 100% of the profits, not 50%.
And they only get away with it because American media refuses to go into the details of oil deals in the Middle East; ISIS moving Syrian oil through Turkey’s pipelines to Israel for resale to Europe is one of the best examples, with the U.S. standing by and watching, c. 2013-2015, is a great example; and of course the Intercept is notable for absolute refusal to cover these economic agendas related to pipelines and fossil fuels, even though they are absolutely central to conflicts from the Ukraine to Georgia to Turkey to Syria; this is corporate media behavior, just like the Guardian giving Nafeez Ahmed the boot because he dared to write about Israeli gas as a factor in the assault on Gaza:
http://www.jonathan-cook.net/blog/2014-12-04/why-the-guardian-axed-nafeez-ahmeds-blog/
In any case, why doesn’t Russia do what the United States does – ignore the “vital interests” line and instead portray their actions in Syria as legitimate defense of a sovereign state from attack by Islamic Wahhabi Salafist terrorists, takfiris who are out to rape and slaughter Yazidis and Kurds and Shia and Christians, while being financed by expansionist Saudi monarchs with evil intentions?
Of course, the American media would ridicule that PR line – but they go right along with the PR line put out by Washington by refusing to cover the economic agenda behind the calls for a no-fly zone over Syria by Hillary Clinton; and make no mistake, the Intercept is just as guilty of this kind of distortion as the Washington Post or the New York Times is. Corporate energy plays are not on the agenda, whether its the Dakota Access pipeline or the Syria pipeline war, or Nigerian uranium mines, or anything similar.
Why do you think that is?
In an article published in the Middle East Eye earlier this year, a spokesman for Centcom denies US culpability for the death of civilians in Yemen (4-9-2016):
“……….US military officials have said they bear no responsibility for civilian casualties in Yemen……A spokesman for US Central Command (Centcom) on Friday stressed that the Saudis are the ones who decide which targets to strike………”The decisions on the conduct of operations to include the selections and final vettings of targets” are being made by the Saudi-led coalition, said Centcom spokesman Colonel Patrick Ryder…….”We are confident that the information that we relay and that the support we provide to Saudi Arabia is sound, and provide them with the best option for military success consistent with international norms and mitigating civilian casualties,” he added……”The joint combined planning cell meet regularly with the Saudi military leadership and provide recommendations about being in compliance with the law of armed conflicts.”……The US military provides intelligence and logistical information to the coalition led by Riyadh, which coordinates air strikes on rebels waging a civil war against the Yemeni government…….Ryder said US military officials “have encouraged the Saudis to further investigate” the alleged bombings, as it does any time civilians are said to have been harmed…….”
About 95% of the time I do not reply to Craig Summers, who is an authoritarian, pro-torture, Republican Trump-voter. Multiple commenters asked that I not reply to Craig because doing so causes him to post yet more walls of drivel-text, which pollute the board.
Are you sure he’s a Trump voter? I’d think Trump voters would be inclined to agree with him over things the media pillories him for, like his opposition to aiding terrorists in Syria, or the Cold War relic of NATO. (That’s why I would fear Trump less than Clinton in some ways.)
Personally, I think Craig is a Neocon, who would fit in well with a John Bolton campaign.
Orville
Actually some very good observations. Early on I was going to vote for Trump, but not any more. However, I will not vote for Hillary under any circumstance despite her support from some neoconservatives. I am certainly not going to vote for Jill Stein or Gary Johnson. I doubt I will cast a vote for the President in this election.
Thanks.
i would guess that craigly is in Haifa.
Bunch of lies you are quoting. Saudi should never have started this war, as they claim in order to save the legitimate government of Yemen against the Houthis. What legitimate Yemeni government? The one that is based in Saudi? Led by Hadi n by a bunch of dirty drunk prostitutes who would sell their little pinky if they could make something out of it? Even the Saudis look down at them with contempt n can’t wait to get rid of them. This so-called Yemeni government based in Saudi, the one bombing its own innocent citizens, has no legitamicy whatsoever n are despised by all. The US is culpable: who sells the Saudis bombs, guns, tanks, f-16s, cluster bombs, chemical weapons, who provides support n training, who helps the Saudi coalition to kill us in cold blood. How dare you say the US is not culpable. I wish you would spend one day in Yemen, it’s 9/11 ever say there, just one day then let me know how you feel then!!!!!
Oh, but those damn Russians. They’ve hacked the US and they are friends with Trump and they are trying to rig the elections and all that shit. You know, ……,man. All that shit.
Or is it just good old propaganda?
Jesus, Obama and Clinton and their whole bullshit tirade is so fucking pathetic. Puppets for the military industrial complex, but oh, do they love pointing fingers.
Mr. Trump has it relatively easy. He can blame everything going wrong on bad deals made by the present administration. The administration doesn’t have that option. So they have to blame it all on the evil genius of Vladimir Putin.
Trump is a fucking tool.
And so is the American voting public
Trump is the greatest gift for the corrupt DC establishment. They can continue on with their war crimes and imperialism because Trump distracts the American people from it and the fact that Trump is too stupid to articulate anything tangent about the middle east.
Trump has the perfect solution for US in the ME.Yankee come home.
And ISUS will be defunded into a irrelevant actor,as he will put pressure on the Saudi and zionist funders.
And now,with their full assault on his candidacy,he can tell the Israelis Go F*ck Yourselves,and solve the Palestinian disaster,which of course is why they want part of Trump as POTUS.
Trump for POTUS.
For Americans who love their country,there is no other choice.
Those damn Russians killing NATO’s Al Qaeda-linked, US backed, Islamist proxies in Syria – the US must start a war against Russia to save them. Otherwise the fake war on terror, and all the war profiteering might come to an end.
Russia warns US strikes against Syria may lead to war
By Alex Lantier
10 October 2016 wsws.org
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2016/10/10/russ-o10.html
We’ve been openly and actively neutralizing the Saudi’s rivals in their region for – ever.
Period.
Every current citizen & recent past generation is complicit in these War Crimes at this point.
How is your employing the use of ‘War Crimes’ to pique readership any different from click-bait then? Nothing you said was ‘news’. Journalism requires more than just surfing the web to cut and paste others work.
How about a nice timely article on Voter Cross Checking – hmmm?
So then you’re okay with the US being complicit and enabling in the murders of multiple civilians and Double Tap war crimes.
Journalism requires more than ignoring mass murder and war crimes under the guise of begging someone else to write about what you are apparently incapable of writing about yourself: “How about a nice timely article on Voter Cross Checking – hmmm?” –SomeUselessStumpOnTheInternet–calling itself “don dent”
Thank you, sir.
We’ve been actively and openly neutralizing the Saudis rivals in their region for – ever. Period.
Every citizen and recent past generation is complicit in those war crimes at this point.
So what’s the difference between your pandering for readership by employing a ‘War Crimes’ angle and click bait? Tell us something everyone doesn’t already know.
How about a nice article on Voter Cross Checking? hmm?
Do some actual journalism instead of surfing the net.
You already said that, asshole.
You first.
Where are all the pro-interventionists on Syria vis-a-vis the carnage in Yemen?
No, I’m not serious in that question; whataboutery and disingenuous accusations of hypocrisy are not rhetorical ploys I use or respect.
But The Syria Campaign’s PR firm has sent out instructions that those who oppose a No Fly Zone (it could start WWIII) but also support Palestinians, are hypocrites, who don’t care about dead Syrian babies, & etc ad vomitum. (I’ve tweeted about the carnage in both Yemen and Syria).
Goose/gander means anyone ranting about the “need” to militarily intervene in Syria who deploys the hypocrisy and/or whataboutery charge, should be confronted with Yemen.
Well, this really points to how “American exceptionalism” is built on a logical fallacy:
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/relativist-fallacy.html
The belief in Washington is that when the the United States or its client states (Israel, Saudi Arabia) launch military attacks on regions such as Yemen, South Lebanon, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Somalia, Afghanistan, the Pakistan Tribal Areas, etc., this is justified because of our superior moral humanitarian values. We’re fighting terrorism; we’re freeing people from oppressive regimes; we’re fighting expansionary powers, etc., so the bloodshed and slaughter of children, which of course we regret, is nevertheless justified in the name of the greater good.
When any other country does this (i.e. Russia in Syria), it is brutal evil warfare with a totalitarian agenda, a deplorable slaughter of the innocents done to prop up dictatorial regimes for blatantly economic reasons.
So, how does Washington – the US State Department, the Pentagon, the White House, and Congress – respond to Claim X, i.e. that is is wrong to invade sovereign nations and overthrow their leaders and install puppet governments? They commit the relativist fallacy, based on the notion of American exceptionalism – “That may be wrong for other countries, but since we’re so special, so moral, so humanitarian in our aims, it is perfectly okay for us – or our client states – to do this.”
Then, if some other country (not our client state) engaged in destabilizing its neighbors by running covert operations aimed at overthrowing political leaders, says,”Well, if you do this kind of thing, why can’t we do this kind of thing?” we respond with “that’s just whataboutery, and no we’re not hypocrites, because American exceptionalism.”
Regardless, any rational person who sees a murderer with bloody hands getting up on a soapbox to condemn another murderer with bloody hands is going to point out that, obviously, both people are criminals.
And this, incidentally, is why JASTA – the bill allowing people to sue governments – was a real victory for human beings all over the world; the American government is guilty of serious crimes, so are many other governments, and if ordinary people gain the right to sue government leaders for their criminal actions, it is another tool that can be used to prevent governments from starting wars. So, yes, American citizens should be able to sue the Saudi government for crimes such as supporting terrorism – but that means Iraqi civilians should be able to sue the American government for crimes such as starting wars based on deliberate lies about WMDs. This has already happened, see the Arab Project in Iraq group’s demands – Families of victims killed during US-led invasion of Iraq demand compensation, Independent, Oct 4 2016.
American exceptionalism, in other words, is total bullshit; it only benefits the criminals in high places by protecting them from being prosecuted for their criminal actions. It’s no different from aristocratic / elite exceptionalism in the U.S. criminal justice system (see Stanford rapist Brock Turner, for example) – any system of justice, be it international or local, has to have the same rules for all, or it will be dismissed and ignored.
“The belief in Washington” is just a pretext. The real reason for these wars is resources, mainly oil & pipelines. None of these wars would be happening if not for that.
I am for intervening in Syria- just not on the side most US/UK/EU media outlets are pushing for. And I’d also think the same of intervention in Yemen. Stand with the Houthis and the Yemeni people. Send a nice strike package to Ras Tanura and Abquaiq to knock out the Saudi income stream (and a big source of jihadi funding), and a nice targeted strike on the palaces in Riyadh (Sauce for Ba’athists and Jamhirriyahists is sauce for Wahabis).
Orville
“……..I am for intervening in Syria- just not on the side most US/UK/EU media outlets are pushing for…….”
The US is already intervening bombing ISIS and al-Qaeda. Essentially, the US is helping to prop up one of the biggest murderers on the planet today.
Who? You mean Bashar? If so u r mistaken
Most of the US’s strikes are in Iraq. Per DoD, the US has conducted 11,973 strikes in Iraq and Syria, with 5161 of those in Syria. Add in Coalition strikes, you have 3508 more total strikes, with 508 of those in Syria.
http://www.defense.gov/News/Special-Reports/0814_Inherent-Resolve
By contrast, Russia has made over 9000 strikes in Syria between the end of last September and March 15th, per the Jamestown Foundation- no fan or friend of Russia.
https://jamestown.org/program/putin-the-peacemaker-ends-operations-in-syria/#.V0-5oHroycw
People are accusing Assad of being a murderer. He’s not the one trying to religiously cleanse the country. He’s not the one with soldiers shouting “Christians to Beirut, Alawites to the tomb!” He’s not the one who is calling for WWIII.
As for the strike that set this whole thing off, it’s worth noting that other countries claimed to be involved, a rather odd reaction. (Reports were that the strikes involved A-10’s and F-16’s. Australia flies the F-18, a totally different plane.)
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2016/sep/19/malcolm-turnbull-says-australia-bombed-syrian-troops-by-mistake
And several people praised the “mistaken” airstrikes like noted liar Dan Kaszeta and his ilk.
For me the final paragraph is incongruous to the whole theme of the article.
Which part, that there are nations with the standing to make such charges/take such stances (I didn’t see anything in the theme at odds with that, though one could make the case that even someplace like Haiti or Switzerland is too tied up with the actions of others to have clean hands)?
Or did you in a Trump/Hillary move redact all that you read that didn’t fit your narrative as soon as you read it?
Solid analysis.
I was surprised too by the Reuters article, as I thought at first it was from RT! Just maybe the west is finally waking up to their hypocrisy on calling Russia a war criminal. Watching the US speech at the UN Security Council this weekend was so awful that I had to turn it off. I don’t know how the US can honestly stomach their own rhetoric or take themselves seriously anymore. Western media & governments point the finger at Russia while completely ignoring Saudis in Yemen, and their own decades long past on pretty much everywhere Earth.
The world can play the game of pointing fingers at who fits the definition of war criminal, which most nations on the security council do, or we can play the game of finding the leaders & nations (e.g. Mujica from Uruguay) to go in there and work out a truce.
In many ways, Syria parallels Colombia, where the right wants to put up the middle finger at the left yet completely lacks any type of admission that Uribe did some very dirty things to the civilians and their land, like Assad, chemicals included.
If I’m a kid on the streets of Aleppo & Yemen or in the jungle of Colombia, I just want the wars to stop. I don’t care who calls who the war criminal, just stop the war. Call in Mujica
“For their part, the British blocked EU inquiries into whether war crimes were being committed in Yemen, …”
Brexit should change that.
It’s always a difficult ethical decision: whether to commit war crimes or assist someone else to commit war crimes. In this case, the United States had to provide Saudi Arabia with some avenue to recycle their petrodollars. Selling them weapons to bomb Yemen appears to be the lesser of two evils.
Some people wonder whether perpetual war is really necessary. In the past, the United States used to go through lengthy periods preparing for the next war. However, thanks to advances in technology, it is possible to satisfy the basic human needs with a much smaller pool of labor. This leaves a large number of people unemployed, or at least under-employed. War gives them something to do.
This is true in the United States, but even more true in Saudi Arabia, which can satisfy all its basic needs from oil revenues. They have a large pool of unemployed young people, who could be creating trouble by doing things like agitating for democracy. So for Saudi Arabia, engaging in foreign wars is even more important than for the United States.
So the United States deserves credit for stepping back and allowing Saudi Arabia to wage war with its neighbors. And at the end of the day, it really doesn’t cost the United States a whole lot, since there are other opportunities to make war in Syria or the Ukraine. At some point, political leaders may be charged with war crimes, but not unless the United States is actually defeated in a war. This appears to be a remote possibility, so I doubt that Mr. Obama is losing too much sleep over it.
“It’s always a difficult ethical decision: whether to commit war crimes or assist someone else to commit war crimes. ”
We’re an ambidextrous nation.
Why not (broad smile) split the difference and do BOTH?!!!
This is an active takeover of Yemen, there soon will be US and RAF bases– most STRATEGIC LOCATION ON THE GLOBE Southern hemisphere!
In the last sentence, did you mean to say ” ‘NOT’ among them”?
War crimes investigations and prosecutions are for those country’s leaders who do not possess nuclear weapons or have a close ally who does.
It is “winner’s justice” and not a function of any global institutional ability/capacity to apply uniform standards of what constitutes a “war crime”, uniformly, on all nations regardless of relative levels of power (economic or military) or possession of nuclear weapons.
Somebody let me know when anyone in a position of leadership from any of the following countries is prosecuted for “war crimes”:
Never ever going to happen so long as the UN Security Council is structured the way it is with the 5 “permanent members” having veto rights over any resolution that could be promulgated from that “council”.
On the last point, it was the only way to get the UN started in the first place, by guaranteeing the most powerful members that membership cannot result in a loss of national sovereignty on questions deemed crucial by the respective countries. I am not disagreeing with anything you said, just saying that the UN will dissolve if you change the veto rules on security council resolutions.
P.S. — All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others.
http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2016/08/17/War-In-Yemen/
Happy Thanksgiving