Saudi Arabia and the U.S. have maintained their alliance for seven decades despite disagreements over oil prices, Israel, and, more recently, the Obama administration’s rapprochement with Iran.
Judging by a 2014 email purportedly written by Hillary Clinton to John Podesta, her current campaign chairman, and published by WikiLeaks, there have been serious tensions over Saudi Arabia’s role in the Syria conflict as well. In the midst of a nine-point overview of U.S. strategy in the Middle East, Clinton wrote:
“… we need to use our diplomatic and more traditional intelligence assets to bring pressure on the governments of Qatar and Saudi Arabia, which are providing clandestine financial and logistic support to ISIL and other radical Sunni groups in the region.”
Clinton’s private comments differ from the public line taken by members of the Obama administration. Speaking at the 9/11 Memorial and Museum in New York, John Brennan, the director of the CIA, recently called the Saudis “among our very best counterterrorism partners globally.” Last month, Obama, who long ago referred to Saudi Arabia as a “so-called” ally, acted to protect the Saudi government from litigation by vetoing the Justice Against Sponsors of Terrorism Act, which would allow 9/11 victims to sue the Saudi government for damages in U.S. federal court. Congress overturned Obama’s veto, leaving the door open for Saudi Arabia to be named as a defendant in future lawsuits.
The U.S. has its reasons for maintaining the Saudi alliance. The country produces 13 percent of the world’s oil and holds $117 billion of U.S. debt. During Obama’s two terms, Saudi Arabia has spent more than $50 billion on U.S.-made weaponry, far more than during George W. Bush’s two terms, and the U.S. has approved deals worth another $65 billion.
The kingdom still has its staunch backers in Washington, due in no small part to its lavish spending on lobbyists and public relations. Among them is John Podesta’s brother, Tony, a lobbyist. Filings made under the Foreign Agents Registration Act show that Saudi government is paying Tony Podesta’s firm, the Podesta Group, a $140,000 monthly fee through the end of 2016, and that Tony himself consults on the Saudi account. Earlier this year, Politico reported on a 104-page white paper circulating on Capitol Hill, said to detail the Saudi government’s efforts to fight terrorism.
Public opinion about Saudi Arabia now appears to be approaching a crossroads. According to Gallup, the country’s favorability ratings are at 37 percent, between China and Russia. Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump have both condemned ties between the country’s religious leadership and extremist ideology. Over the past year, a series of investigative articles in the New York Times has chronicled the Saudi government’s invasive legal controls over women, its complicated relationship with ISIS, and the brutal proxy war it is carrying out against its longstanding enemy, Iran, in Yemen.
Clinton was not the first to assert links between the governments of Saudi Arabia and Qatar and the Islamic State. Six months before the 2014 email, Nouri al-Maliki, the prime minister of Iraq, accused both governments of “inciting and encouraging terrorist movements.” Saudi Arabia vigorously denied al-Maliki’s allegations at the time. Earlier in 2014, the Obama administration hosted a two-day strategy meeting with intelligence chiefs from Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Turkey, Jordan, and other Middle Eastern countries reportedly intended to refocus military aid away from the Nusra Front and ISIS and toward more “moderate” groups of rebels.
The wording of Clinton’s 2014 email, attributing Saudi Arabia’s support for radical Sunni militants to the Saudi government itself, as opposed to a few radical outliers, may also emerge as a factor in the ongoing debate about the degree of Saudi Arabia’s support for al Qaeda in the years leading up to 9/11. Fifteen of the 19 hijackers were Saudi citizens. The question of whether the country’s connection to the plot reached official levels was opened up again this summer by the release of 28 classified pages from a 2002 congressional investigation into the 9/11 attacks. The document offers new information about the FBI’s investigation into Omar al-Bayoumi, a wealthy Saudi business student who had worked with the Saudi Civil Aviation Authority.
The 9/11 Commission Report found al-Bayoumi to be “an unlikely candidate for clandestine involvement with Islamist extremists.” Yet the 28 pages paint a different picture, relaying FBI reports of al-Bayoumi’s “extensive contact with Saudi government establishments in the United States” and “numerous reports from individuals in the Muslim community, dating back to 1999, alleging that al-Bayoumi may be a Saudi intelligence officer.”
More damning, however, are differences between the accounts given by the 9/11 Commission Report and the 28 pages regarding the initial meeting between al-Bayoumi, Nawaf al-Hazmi, and Khalid al-Mihdhar at a restaurant in Culver City, California. Soon after, al-Bayoumi found an apartment for the two men — both of them future 9/11 hijackers — and lent them money for rent. The 9/11 Commission Report suggests that their initial meeting was a coincidence. Again, the FBI account quoted in the 28 pages differs: “There are indications in the files that his [al-Bayoumi’s] encounter with the hijackers may not have been accidental.”
Over the summer, in the days after the killing of 49 people in an ISIS-related shooting at a club in Orlando, Clinton openly criticized the Saudi, Qatari, and Kuwaiti governments for failing “to stop their citizens from funding extremist organizations.” Her newly released 2014 email goes a step further, directly attributing support for ISIS to the Saudi government. It seems that part of the Obama administration’s approach to Saudi Arabia has been to hold its nose and keep its mouth shut, at least in public. Should Clinton prevail in the November election, it will be her turn to try and manage an increasingly awkward alliance.
Top photo: Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton speaks to U.S. Embassy personnel at the Ritz-Carlton hotel in Riyadh on March 31, 2012.
its not a rapprochement
U.S. Agencies See No Move by Iran to Build a Bomb
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/25/world/middleeast/us-agencies-see-no-move-by-iran-to-build-a-bomb.html?_r=0
Sanders’ damning silence on Clinton’s Wall Street speeches
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2016/10/20/sand-o20.html
Practically saying so or not does in no way mean SA is behind such a serious attack. I understand that there are Saudis involved in the attack but again it has nothing to do with the country and its citizens as well. Let me give practical examples, Donald tramp is racist in his speech, does that mean American are racists? Does that mean the US is not tolerating and appreciating differences. In reality SA is innocent from such and similar attacks. In fact, the 28 document released by CIA proved so. Also, SA government has faced similar attacks before 9/11. Even aftermath of 9/11 attack, SA faced series of heinous attacks. Blaming others for things they have not done in the first place no longer works. No can twist the truth.
I read this leaked email days ago in an article in an Italian newspaper. It was considered big news, a big “revelation”. I then tried to find any mention of it in the big American papers and found zippo. Shocking and appalling. Thank you Intercept.
American journalism is dead, there are no reliable mainstream sources – most of these outlets will eventually shutdown due to lack of viewership/readership.
Part of me feels that Clinton will defend SA even more than Obama and the other part of me now feels because of this leak that she will break all ties with SA.
The problem is that this leak hasn’t made its way into the major papers. I wonder why…
She can’t break ties with Saudi without collapsing the US Dollar. That relationship may be the only thing propping up the US economy.
“Trained in scientific method, Professor Noam Chomsky:”
Actually practiced with Doctorate of Physics, Dr. Jones.
His analysis of the NIST report has not been debunked. he did get fired for publishing it.
Chomsky still has a job … spouting inanity regarding the Laws of Physics.
Oh, well then. An anonymous guy named “nuf said” posted on the Internet the most compelling argument ever known to humankind, to wit: A “Doctorate of Physics, Dr. Jones” got fired for his “analysis of the NIST report” but Noam Chomsky is still teaching at MIT to “spout[] inanity regarding the Laws of Physics.”
One seldom sees such rigorous analysis supported by clear facts as that!
pffft
“One seldom sees such rigorous analysis supported by clear facts as that!”
-Mona-“I have to resist the urge to inflict intolerable pain upon you!”
Directed at a commenter she deemed to be an anti-Semite.
You should study some math instead of raging at people.
I never posted that. You have claimed it many, many times, and sworn to find it, and never do.
But even if I had, it’s a non sequitur which doesn’t change that you are posting inanity about 9/11. Admonitions to “study math” are also a non sequitur and misdirection.
Cranks often traffic in various fallacies, so your behavior isn’t a surprise.
“Admonitions to “study math” are also a non sequitur and misdirection. ”
I keep forgetting that as an attorney, former attorney, you resort to bluff when your intellect fails. That you can’t understand simple trig/geometry should be embarrassing but you wear it as a badge of honor …
What else would one expect from a profession that relies on dead language to describe the world. RR pulled the same shit. I know there are some smart attorneys out there because I’ve met some. Why are they so few and far between? It is because just about anyone can get a JD.
-mona- illustrates that point better than most. She’s willing to take a position as long as enough other people hold the position. It is like Nate wanting to vote for a winner, because, it just makes sense …
More non sequiturs which do not change that you are posting inanity about 9/11 which you cannot defend.
Cranks often traffic in various fallacies, so your behavior continues to be unsurprising.
Glenn Greenwald did not write the above article. Moreover, he has explicitly rejected “Truther” narratives and takes, he has said many time, essentially the same position on that silliness that Noam Chomsky does.
Greenwald has on several occasions recommended the Chomsky position as provided here.
Chomsky:
You are correct in that Mr. Greenwald did not write that article. I was reading one of his articles before this one and didn’t realize until after my post that this particular one wasn’t his…
“Truthers” are not basement-dwelling conspiracy nuts who will believe anything (except the truth), as you seem to believe.
Just the opposite – they are decent, open-minded, hard working concerned citizens who are completely interested in seeking the real truth of what happened on 9/11 – no matter how dark and evil and uncomfortable it may be.
People like yourself who attempt to discredit real truth seekers are only helping the real terrorists achieve their goals – whilst making yourself out to be a callous, unpatriotic fool.
I would rather critically examine the facts put forth by scientific experts such as Richard Gage (Architects & Engineers for 9/11 truth), and Professor Stephen Jones, for example, than ignorant fools or disinformation tools – such as yourself – or mental midgets such as George “Dubya” Bush.
Claiming that 9/11 was done by Osama Bin Laden and some Saudi suicide hijackers (who were found alive and well after the fact!), and that the twin towers melted because of jet fuel is so ridiculously absurd – especially in this day and age with all of the information available that proves beyond the shadow of a doubt that the world was lied to about really happened.
Fortunately people like you are dwindling in numbers everyday, as more and more people wake up and start looking into what really happened.
My hope for you – and people like you – is that one day you’ll stop protecting the terrorists and start supporting the quest for the truth – and a real, unbiased independent investigation of what really happened on 9/11.
The “jet fuel melting” fallacy has been widely refuted. Jet fuel didn’t “melt” the towers. It didn’t have to. Metal loses strength when subjected to temperatures well below their melting points. When you consider the term “melt” to be hyperbolic, the intent remains true. Heat from the play helped bring down the towers.
Mike,
Please do not dismiss the laws of physics.
The twin towers – and WTC7 – were brought down in a controlled demolition. There is ample scientific evidence of this.
To suggest otherwise is – at best – to propagate a lie. At worst you are protecting terrorists and supporting terrorism.
Please stop.
Anonymous guy “Wayne”:
Trained in scientific method, Professor Noam Chomsky:
Terrorist protector “Mona”:
Please pull your head out of your rump and kindly review the _proven science_ that has been published by and supported by over 2000 highly trained scientific professionals – instead of attempting to ridicule myself and others with your feebleminded, nonsensical prattle:
http://www.ae911truth.org/
I do not listen to a tiny fraction of scientists regarding Truther stuff, any more than I listen to the tiny fraction of scientists who are creationists and think, e.g., the world is 4,000 year old and that there are 3 races that resulted from Noah’s 3 sons. A person advocating any of that who has alphabet soup after their name remains a crank.
I do not credit cranks.
http://www.ae911truth.org/
Did you even RESEARCH any of the information (aka science) that I provided?
Or are you still blowing smoke out of your backside orifice?
Two thousand+ professional architectural engineers are a “tiny fraction”? Here on earth, that is a substantial scientific backing.
And again, instead of discussing the facts – backed by scientific proof – you ramble on completely off topic.
We are not discussing the world being 4000 years old – or your attempt at pretending that you are a highly intelligent human being by quoting a few latin phrases that you apparently picked up in law school.
It is obvious that your true intention here is dissuade intelligent, critical thinking readers from educating themselves with the truth (based on scientific facts).
You have repeatedly proven yourself to be a complete idiot with a vested interest in protecting terrorists and intentionally lying and spreading disinformation.
Please take your cereal box law degree and go find Pokemon or something.
There is no place in modern civilization for terrorist supporting trolls.
Well, indirectly, we are discussing that. A handful of crank Ph.D’s believe that (well more than 2,000), just as a handful of crank engineers, architects and scientists believe Truther nonsense.
Truther or creationist, it’s crankery all the way down.
(It’s completely unsurprising that the person describing Notre Dame Law School as dispensing “cereal box law degrees” is a crank.)
http://ae911truth.org/
The professional opinions of 2500+ scientifically trained architects and engineers with proven, sound scientific facts surrounding the WTC collapses on 9/11 are detailed here, for all of the world to read.
Res ipsa loquitur.
2500 is literally a drop in the bucket among the world’s “scientifically trained architects and engineers.” Just as a similar, miniscule fraction of the world’s scientists advocate creationism.
” Notre Dame Law School as dispensing “cereal box law degrees” is a crank.)”
Anybody can get a JD. As proof, just watch them practice on any given day.
Mona claims she’s a lawyer but one could not tell from her writings; other than when she’s telling you she’s a lawyer.
When a lawyer tells you they are an attorney instead of proving it …
you can call her -Mona-. Then hire a smart attorney. They are out there.
So…you think the several times I’ve said or agreed I am Glenn Greenwald’s former law partner he just let’s me and other tell a lie like that? Sure thing.
I’d have been banned long, long ago if that were a lie.
“Metal loses strength when subjected to temperatures well below their melting points. ”
You do not understand steel.
Look at the stress/strain curve for steel at temperature. The yield point barely moves until you get hundreds of degrees hotter than the fires in the towers.
Even if you had a giant blow torch on every column there would never be symmetrical collapse; it would rotate and/or tip rather than move straight down. The math proves it.
She’s a contrarian so take her for what she is.
“There happen to be a lot of people around who spend an hour on the Internet and think they know a lot physics, but it doesn’t work like that. There’s a reason there are graduate schools in these departments,”
Brilliance from a lawyer who could not do vector math to save her life.
If you could understand Pythagorean math you would understand what I described (A^2 + B^2 = C^2). That it’s over your head is obvious to everyone except you, and Nate, and Vic. (that’s some company …)
Literally, you haven’t a clue but you point toward philosophers for their take on science …
Ever drive over a steel truss bridge? You’re old enough to have seen them. There is a reason they have diagonal beams between the vertical beams. Can you describe why? No. I can. At the graduate level. So fuck off.
High-school level physics is all that is required to describe mathematically what happened to the 3 towers. That Chomsky mentions Grad School speaks to his complete lack of knowledge of math. I gave a mathematical model in terms a non-engineer would understand, assuming basic mathematical skills equivalent to high-school, and your response is ‘So what’.
You really are not any smarter than Nate.
An anonymous guy on the Internet calling himself “nuf said” claims to have mastery of physics sufficient enough to know that ” high-school level physics” explains enough to know that Truthers are right. Graduate school is nonsense. And on like that.
Res ipsa loquitur! (Hint: that’s a Latin phrase used at law, and I thought it’d be super cool to toss that in here just to sound, yanno, as sufistumcated as anonymous guys who can type: “vector math” and post equations!)
Sure. Attack the messenger. “Graduate school is nonsense.” WTF
You can’t do basic math and you should be embarrassed.
You should go back to engaging CS. That’s your station.
Whether I can do basic math or not, what I know about truss bridges, whom I should be engaging, whether Nate and Vic understand Pythagorean math, all of that is irrelevant non sequitur. Your Truther crankery is not demonstrated by such assertions — indeed, such misdirection merely reveals the MO of a crank.
You really are quite pathetic.
Solve a 3,4,5 right triangle and you will know enough to solve basic high-school physics. That’s vector math in a nutshell.
But then you think Catholic university is the home of science …
well, Glenn’s former law partner would think so.
“all rather than try to defend the idiocy of your Truther enthusiasms.”
OK Mona, you are just being a contrarian, again.
It would be one thing if I was the only one saying 911 was an inside job but I am not alone. i provided an explanation of simple math that describes what happened, in my own words, not paraphrased from some web site. You have no skills what so ever to dispute anything I assert other than no you didn’t.
You do not possess even rudimentary math skills, apparently. I guess you were too busy studying religion at university to bother with mathematics. Who needs math when you have Jesus …
but I am not alone.
Cranks abound. Apparently crackpots have a special fondness for physics and mathematics.
Oh, yes. Cranks online have also “explained” to me “in their own words” how the fossil record is the result of Noah’s worldwide flood — humans are at the top of the strata, you see, because they could run from the rising waters. And, after all the animals got off the Ark, all the kangaroos hopped on floating land masses and floated back to Australia. Coolbeans!
Yes, cranks often entertain me on the Internet.
Idiot.
“Yes, cranks often entertain me on the Internet.”
We know you entertain yourself by belittling the mentally ill. you even have a web page devoted to mocking them. You carry on that tradition with any and all commenters who point out your lack of intellect.
You are really just Omooex, aren’t you? You respond as it did.
There are some serious problems with this piece.
Hillary is well aware that US weapons being sold to the Saudis are ending up in the hands of “radical Sunni groups”.
If she truly had a problem with it she wouldn’t support more weapons sales while whining about “diplomatic and intelligence assets pressure”.
She doesn’t support the one effective thing we could do.
The fact that her private statement differs from the public statements is not a positive sign that Hillary may act more forcefully in the future because of “serious tensions” on Syria, but rather evidence that she will lie to Americans to maintain the status quo despite knowing it is wrong…
unless the author is claiming that Hillary wanted these emails released.
The US backed Saudi war in Yemen is not a “proxy war” with Iran, as the only evidence of Iranian support for the Houthis has been a statement of moral support. This does not fit the definition of a proxy war… but repeating the falsehood certainly serves the establishment by justifying the atrocities due to the boogeyman Iran angle so easily swallowed by the well groomed American public and “journalists”.
“Earlier in 2014, the Obama administration hosted a two-day strategy meeting with intelligence chiefs from Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Turkey, Jordan, and other Middle Eastern countries reportedly intended to refocus military aid away from the Nusra Front and ISIS and toward more “moderate” groups of rebels.”
The “moderate” rebels are ideologically identical to al Qaida, and collaborate with al Qaida.
Pretending that there is a distinction is perpetuating a lie.
In any case, the US, with Obama and Hillary on board, allowed our “allies” (and the CIA) to funnel weapons to our enemies for three years (2011-2014) before convening this meeting, and TO THIS DAY tolerate our allies support for our enemies. This suggests they engaged in a massive betrayal in contradiction to their public statements for too long and that they have either been completely ineffectual at “refocusing” or the meeting was just to further coordinate the ongoing support for those who attacked us on 9/11 in order to continue our illegal, proxy regime change war in Syria.
The conjecture about what Hillary’s email may mean for the debate about the Saudis role pre-9/11 seems like a distraction away from Hillary’s two-faced public and private positions that affect our current policies… policies that the evidence suggests Hillary will continue to maintain in our “awkward alliance”.
All this email tells us is that HRC was having a senior moment that day while her earlier comment about the Saudi government not doing enough about private individual Saudis aiding AQ or the IS is the accurate statement.
This is the low quality of proof that the TFH protagonists depend on to keep the thermite burning in Building 7 and other fantasies. There are plenty of good, logical and proven reasons to attack the House of Saud but this fable seems to be more about deflecting attention from the US security failures that allowed the 9/11 attack to happen than bringing anyone to justice for this crime.
Thanks for providing the view from Podesta Group.
Just as an aside, 49 people were killed in Orlando, but as far as I know it has never been made public how many were killed by police and how many by the perpetrator.
Present your evidence.
HRC’s past pandering to Saudi Arabia despite, as now disclosed, her private recognition of that nation’s chronic turpitude in sponsoring terrorism could well prove to be, in the long haul, not the least of her political liabilities vis-a-vis the Middle East should she be coronated. Apropos her express intention, if elected POTUS, to arm Kurdish groups in Syria in the fight against ISIS, Turkey’s Erdogan just yesterday impugned Clinton in a speech as “a political novice”, i.e., as an amateur , and as someone wretchedly ignorant and dangerously deluded as to all the complex & subtle dynamics obtaining in this part of the world — and this almost as if to suggest she was simply incapable of appreciating the Kurds’ role over the course of many decades as Turkey’s principal bete noire . He also went on to condemn the US for having so far failed, despite its formal receipt of 85 boxes of evidence, to execute the the extradition of the cleric Fethullah Gulen, long resident in Pennsylvania, whom most informed persons in Turkey hold personally responsible for the bloody yet abortive coup of July 15 . Whereas, in the past, Turkey has routinely handed over to the US all those individuals denominated by the US (a priori, as it were) as terrorists, just as to this day the UK similarly obliges Turkey, Erdogan promises to ensure that, in the future, Turkey will itself decide on the merit of all such charges. A profound deterioration in Turkish / American relations is pretty much assured, then, if Gulen will not have been handed over to Turkey by the time HRC ascends to the presidency. For, thanks to the intermediation of their aide Huma Abedin, Clinton, her husband & the Clinton Foundation have been the beneficiaries of substantial donations and campaign contributions from any number of members of the affluent Gulenist sect (Hizmet), widespread in the United States (and pretty much all over the world) — something very well known to Erdogan, whose AKP Party happily collaborated with the Gulenist movement in its / their quest for political power prior to 2014. (Cf. YouTube: Clinton / Gulen / Turkish Cultural Center.) Briefly stated, then (I have to run), what’s at stake here is Turkey’s membership of NATO, and a projected realignment with Russia (that, geopolitically, might after all make a great deal of sense).
Just out of curiosity, how much of the “evidence” in those 85 boxes have you seen?
“whom most informed persons in Turkey hold personally responsible”?
Why haven’t they shared that information publicly?
Are you concerned that the anti-Gulenist attacks started well before the attempted coup, and that the coup may just be an excuse by Erdogan to go after Gulen?
I think it’s safe to say that Gulen would have supported the coup… not unlike the US government as Erdogan also claimed… but that doesn’t mean he was involved in the plotting.
I’m not a fan of Erdogan, but as far as your last sentence goes, it may be one of those situations where even a stopped watch is right twice a day.
I suspect however that Erdogan is just trying to use his flirtation with Russia to extract concessions from us… perhaps even just our silence while he keeps his anti-democratic authoritarian grip on power using tactics we may not otherwise tolerate including attacking the Kurds.
His kind of crazy is hard to grasp.
Thanks, altohone. I think what you have to appreciate just for starters is the cultural landscape here in Turkey where, for by now some fifteen or twenty years, any number of persons and journos have been sounding the alarm with respect to the organized & systematic infiltration by members of the Gulenist cult of the military, the police, the judiciary, academia, banking, big business, and the media — this rather on the model of the manner in which Scientologists and (@ UK) Free Masons operate. Because of the undue influence wielded by the Gulenists, Erdogan and his AKP party, lusting after political power, were happy for more than a decade to closely collaborate with Gulen and his followers; but this collusion abruptly terminated when, in December 2013, unhappy with aspects of Erdogan’s attitude & policies that ramified negatively in the international community (viz., the Mavi Marmara and Gezi Park episodes), Gulenists within the police and the judiciary suddenly sought to railroad Erdogan by investigating & prosecuting a number of his ministers and members of his family, charging them with financial embezzlement. As perceived by Erdogan and all his many cronies, then, this amounted to a de facto coup-attempt; and that constitutes a preamble to the attempted coup of July 15 this year — which Erdogan surely had good reason to suspect was a work in progress and was prepared and poised to quash, ultimately to his own political advantage. In the wake of that event, any number of arrested coup-plotters have since fessed up and acknowledged their involvement as Gulenist ‘sleepers’, and the huge amount of first-hand testimony so adduced is not to be smugly & glibly dismissed at long distance as being likely the product of torture and the like. On this count, go google on “Gulen terror cult” and watch a few of the extraordinary videos on YouTube wherein Gulenist apostates, formerly high-placed in the movement, spill all the beans (climaxing btw with the revelation of the Imam Fethullah Gulen’s wish, with an eventual return to Turkey, to emulate yet eclipse the Ayatollah Khomeini’s return to Iran). Of course I have not myself had an opportunity to scrutinize all those 85 boxes — I consider that a cheap, nasty, & gratuitous rejoinder on your part. But by now, given some basic familiarity with the Turkish terrain, there exists in the public domain plenty of evidential matter, like that which I have just referred to, to apprehend & appreciate both the kind and the magnitude of the materials filed by Turkey with the US in its insistent demands for Gulen’s extradition. On all this, I can do no better than recommend you go check out both thecorbettreport and Sibel Edmonds’ boilingfrogs website (@ YouTube), and there hunt down (by titles) a few of their more apposite videos. — As for Turkey / Russia, yes for sure, Erdogan wants to keep a few cards up his sleeve(s), as I don’t doubt Putin realizes full well. But what has to be reckoned in here is that, during just the past few months, improbably enough, Turkish / Russian economic and geopolitical relations have been largely restored — this in the concrete shape of the construction of two Turkish Stream pipelines under the Black Sea from Russia securing gas for energy-dependent Turkey (plus, as projected, Greece and the Balkans); the resumption of a contract with Russia to build (a) nuclear power facility/ies in Anatolia; a lifting of the restrictions on Russian tourists (a major component part of Turkey’s economy); and the resumption of TR’s exportation of citrus fruits and the like to its northern neighbor (also, formerly, a vital chunk of its economy). Mere scrutiny of an Atlas is enough to show that Russia’s and Turkey’s (and Greece’s!) geopolitical interests overlap profoundly — cf. the Bosporus and Sea of Marmara! Whereas, by contrast, the US has little to offer in this part of the world — which it grossly misunderstands, in any case — beyond its routine exportation of death, destruction, and chaos.
I am not unaware of the background information you mentioned.
I was not defending Gulen or his followers.
It is truth versus spin for political purposes that is my angle.
I consider Gulen as kooky as Erdogan.
That said, Erdogan using the Gulenists as a convenient scapegoat, after partnering with them for political gain, suggest that he at least shares their questionable morality.
The confessions of supposed plotters is a tried and true tactic used throughout history though. The massive effort expended to set the stage raises questions even from afar, and it’s not impossible that rather than torture leading “coup-plotters” to fess up, it may be a case of actors reading a script.
So, this atmosphere that has been created where too many seem to be setting aside deserved skepticism while this narrative is exploited for political gain should be raising red flags and doubts.
Some evidence to substantiate the claims being made seems like a reasonable position for everyone to take.
“”sought to railroad Erdogan by investigating & prosecuting a number of his ministers and members of his family”
Um, while there may have been selective prosecution, the evidence suggests that these people were actually guilty, not railroaded. And Erdogan was protecting them.
It seems all too convenient that police and prosecutors can simply be labeled Gulenists, and the guilty can avoid accountability.
I personally witnessed Turkish police extracting bribes from my employer with impunity and indifference to witnesses when I worked there, so I have no doubt what you say is possible, but again, this convenient escape clause that Erdogan has created makes it a situation where evidence supporting the claims is necessary for me to believe them.
It was my concern to draw attention to yet another political $ liability incurred by HRC vis-a-vis the Middle East, but okay. Yes, indeed — Erdogan and Gulen might well be said to be two sides of the same coin, albeit the one as a Sunni fundamentalist; the other as, ostensibly, a Sufi Muslim fundamentalist. And yes, indeed — there can be little doubt that all the $ millions etc. found by the Turkish police & prosecutors in the possession of Erdogan’s ministers and family members back in December 2013, in an action that precipitated the rift between the Gulenists and the AKP, were the product of ill- [& oil-] gotten gains. But, again — do please go check out the 36 mins. “Gulen Terror Cult” video on YouTube. For only then will you begin to appreciate that the designation “Gulenist” is, in Turkey — but by now in the US too! — no kind of merely tendentious & arbitrary label. And, beyond that, the video can also lay claim to importance as an anthropological document. — Thanks for your blowback, btw.
Mr. Greenwald,
“Fifteen of the nineteen hijackers were Saudi citizens.”
Please write a article on this, in your excellent, true journalistic style!
Nine of the “alleged” hijackers were found alive and well after 9/11 and one – Abdulrahman al-Omari – was even given a formal apology by the United States consulate in Jeddah.
These men were patsies who had their passports stolen. They simply could not have piloted the planes on 9/11.
The real terrorists are still at large.
And, indeed, the FBI never listed Osama Bin Laden on it’s Most Wanted website because, according to FBI Spokesperson Rex Tomb, the FBI “has no direct evidence linking Bin Laden to the 9/11 attacks”.
Personally, I believe it to be folly to discuss suing Saudi Arabia (not to mention the legitimacy of the so-called “war on terrorism”) based on the (false) allegations that these Saudi citizens were actually terrorists.
The world needs more coverage of these facts.
Thank you.
” more coverage of these facts ” lol do you not understand the definition of fact ? How do you know that what you’re claiming is fact ?
” How do you know that what you’re claiming is fact ?”
Simple physics. There was zero displacement in either X or Y axis. 500 or 1000 feet of displacement in Z axis for tower 7, 1&2, respectively. The only way to achieve this feat is with engineered demolition.
University, entry-level, Engineering Statics will fully describe the math involved in steel frame buildings. It’s simple trigonometry. WTC 7 was built from tables. You can look up where to place cutting charges to remove the correct supports and it falls like you’ve seen any casino fall. (It takes time to set up; weeks to months.) You literally sum all forces in X to zero and you sum all forces in Y to zero. We know this is what was done because there was no displacement (movement) in X or Y yet huge movement in Z. It takes force to create movement; gravity is the force and it acts only in the Z direction. We cross bolt steel to make gravity act in X and Y. That’s how buildings stand.
For the towers to fall as they did, all X and Y forces had to sum to zero. Explosive charges timed precisely achieve this; routinely.
Remember the Big Lie; it has to be a whopper and 911 is that.
“How do you know that what you’re claiming is fact ?”
How do you know it is not?
So, troofers can never answer this little puzzler:
If the point of the “inside job” was mainly to give an excuse to invade Iraq and Afghanistan, then why “make” the “hijackers” Saudi Arabians? Why do that? Wasn’t that just needlessly causing possible headaches, such as say a mass desire on the part of Americans to go to war with Saudi Arabia instead? Why not just claim they were Taliban, or Iraqis?
Convincing motive for these pesky little details, as usual, can not be produced.
Same goes for having an anti-climactic building demolition hours later (WTC 7) the least noticed building collapse in the history of New York City, when sufficient freakout had been achieved with planes crashing into the twin towers?
Same goes for having planes crash into the twin towers but then still demolishing them anyway: what, the plane crashes and transformation of the towers into Twin Torches were insufficiently impressive?
motive, motive, motive problems always with the troofers.
Motive….
Pathetic you could not infer on your own because you could go on for days but here is one for your tiny mind.
Private or publicly listed firms received at least $138 billion of U.S. taxpayer money for government contracts for services that included providing private security, building infrastructure and feeding the troops.
Ten contractors received 52 percent of the funds, according to an analysis by the Financial Times that was published Tuesday.
The No. 1 recipient?
Houston-based energy-focused engineering and construction firm KBR, Inc. (NYSE:KBR), which was spun off from its parent, oilfield services provider Halliburton Co. (NYSE:HAL), in 2007.
The company was given $39.5 billion in Iraq-related contracts over the past decade, with many of the deals given without any bidding from competing firms, such as a $568-million contract renewal in 2010 to provide housing, meals, water and bathroom services to soldiers, a deal that led to a Justice Department lawsuit over alleged kickbacks, as reported by Bloomberg.
Your logical analysis is on par with Nate; it is child-like.
You think “motive” is cause for something to not have happened. I just described the math and you bluff. Math cannot be anything other than a definitive description of a physical event.
But you’ve got the answer with motive. What a fucking idiot.
and….you have nothing. As expected.
“and….you have nothing. As expected.”
Rockin’ that high-school diploma, Vic.
I had a friend who had a toddler like you; he too would assume a defiant position when all he had was a load in his pants.
“why “make” the “hijackers” Saudi Arabians? ”
I don’t know. Ask the Mossad. Maybe Saudi Arabia is on Israel’s sh*t list too…
“Convincing motive for these pesky little details, as usual, can not be produced. ”
Motive? Get USA involved in a middle east conflict to fight for Israel’s wars for them. The objective? “Greater Israel” – including Palestine, Jordan, Syria. This has been ongoing for a long time.
It’s the same motive for the Israeli attack on America in 1967. The USS Liberty attack was an attempt to draw the USA into the war with Egypt. Israel failed to, but many brave US servicemen were murdered and injured nonetheless. The fact that America officially still considers Israel an “ally” is proof enough of corruption within the American government.
“Same goes for having an anti-climactic building demolition hours later (WTC 7)”
Motive? Destroy the evidence. Have you ever questioned what offices and government departments were housed in WTC7? And why did BBC and CNN report it’s collapse BEFORE it happened?
I find it very sad and disturbing that you refuse to look at the obvious facts and deny that there is a serious problem happening in the world.
“the troofers.”
Ridiculing critical thinkers who call out government bullshit does not give you any credibility. It makes you look like an ignorant plebe.
The official 9/11 conspiracy theory put forth by the Bush Administration has been completely debunked, and yet there are still some people like you who would rather bury your head in the sand and ignore the truth and ridicule anyone who honestly seeks it out.
Yes, the truth hurts. Lies hurt more.
Wake up.
The Saudi’s and Israel did 9/11! The USA should get some payback. Colonize Saudi Arabia and take their oil as reparations.
I don’t know what to make of it. All I could think is that there is two counter groups (within the shadow government) that is both fighting the same fight but with different approaches. The military industrialist against the bankers. The bankers got the upper hand at the moment. Not that I think their not intertwined in their dealings, but there sure as hell is different games being played and the public is completely kept in the dark.
How can the military industrialist hand in cash to a politician?
In the US and UK, it can be done using complex financial structures to hide the movement of money.
In South America, it seems it is quite possible to just send the stash of by helicopter to the guy’s residence.
In the middle east, in the civilised part, you can do it in the car park at any US embassy.
In the middle east, in the uncivilised part, you can hand in the cash in the same bundle, together with the arms and ammunition.
But there are large number of countries where you still need the services of Banks. And the banks are not stupid. The want their share too, and they know what the price of such services would be:
The price would be a share in power because without them, and the same for telcos, the transactions could not be completed!
The US government officials don’t give a shit about humans killed on or fter 9/11.
Obama administration offered $115b?n in weapons to Saudi Arabia: report
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/sep/08/obama-administration-offered-115-billion-weapons-saudi-arabia-report
Reading comments here I feel I live in an alternative universe. Somehow, Clinton making bold statements about Saudi guilt is interpreted as being evil. You people really suffer from Clinton Derangement Syndrome.
Oh well, you’re road kill.She’s going to be president.
Strongly suggest reading the WSWS piece on this:
Leaked Clinton email admits Saudi, Qatari government funding of ISIS in Syria
Did you see their on-point, scathing piece on Noam Chomsky?
Chomsky in Chicago: The thin gruel of lesser-evil politics
Yes, they nailed that one, too, IMHO. Noam will remain a giant and a hero for a lifetime of work, but his LOTE position in this election, and the weak logic underlying it, will make it more difficult for me to take him seriously going forward.
As an oldster, myself, although much younger than Noam, it’s pretty apparent to me that few humans do their most rigorous intellectual work at age 88.
I read the smart Trotskyists regularly. If they could develop a real understanding of ecology, energy and population dynamics, rather than treating Marxism as gospel, they’d be golden. (Don’t get me wrong: Marx is essential reading.)
Chomsky’s position is even more ridiculous because he’s been saying this every election for years now. I’m not even sure how far it goes back.
Somehow, he complains, a political alternative has not been built up: but by the way, don’t support it when it matters.
Given what Chomsky says is wrong (everything) and how relentless his criticism is (he can mumble invective for an hour straight, as I well know from long drives with Democracy Now during the Bush years), his advice on praxis is nihilistic.
<<>>
Awkward you say?
It is an opportunity to exact a higher price for the service to maintain the enduring alliance of killers.
When Obama was campaigning against Clinton, one of his ads criticizing her said “Hillary Clinton will say anything and change nothing,” which is chilling when you realize he’s talking about change from the Bush/Cheney administration – many of whose wretched policies Obama himself also continued…
But it’s obvious he was right that she’s a liar who’ll not really challenge the compromised establishment. We know one sure thing from the tone of all these emails – the suspicion that what she says is tailored to the particular audience she’s speaking to and may not be anything consistent is an accurate one.
She is consistent, however, in her mendacity, greed, warmongering and corruption.
Ben Norton – Leaked emails: Lobbyist warned Clinton campaign chair about 9/11 lawsuit against Clinton Foundation donor Saudi Arabia
So, she admits that Saudi Arabia funds ISIS (and no doubt understands that they deliver a significant portion of the $50 billion in weaponry that we sell them, to ISIS via the Balkans and Turkey) yet the Clinton foundation still accepted between $10 and $25 million in donations from ISIS’s main recruiter and backer.
This is the salient connection that was not made in this article.
Lucifer’s government rep also has something to say about the lions who ate the Christians. He said, and i quote “Perhaps we should cut back on the number of christians we feed to the lions”.
Hellary is aligned with who?
How is ANYTHING that goes on on the other side of the Earth, a USA national interest?
Let the ME handle itself. The USA should be laying back watching. Let the loons kill each other.
I know! Hellary has to pretend to to be a meddler. She needs the Saudi et al Foundation bribes laundered.
There are far more sinister issues than Clinton’s bribes being laundered.
Those you call loons in the ME, they would not be behaving like loons if not for the planned conflicts being orchestrated in the Pentagon and US embassies.
They would not be behaving like loons if not awashed by arms from the CIA and the Pentagon, and if not trained by US navy and US mercenaries, and they would not be as effective if not provided by intelligence from US and the coalition of allies.
The views from ordinary US citizens are so simplistic that they border on idiotic.
Not border. Are. The ordinary U.S. citizen takes pleasure in knowing absolutely nothing about the operations of its government. I lost all faith in them when they called Ed Snowden a traitor.
I wouldn’t take these e-mails too seriously. Mrs. Clinton has to periodically put some pressure on the Saudis, to make sure they keep up their payments to the Clinton Foundation. As long as they do so, their relationship with the US will remain strong.
I want to comment about the Obama veto regarding the potential lawsuits to hold the Saudi government liable to pay damages for 9/11. You all do realize that, if lawsuits like these are able to occur, the US could be held liable for damages to be paid to the families of civilians that its government slaughters?
Look, I’m against US aggression as much as you guys, but if my tax dollars had to pay for damages to every Iraqi, Afghani, Syrian, South American, Vietnamese, etc etc etc family whom the US affected by murdering one of its members, I would be bankrupt, as would we all.
Then again, it’s not like the US would actually show up in court if this type of lawsuit were brought against us. The very idea that the US could possibly be held responsible for its war crimes is simply laughable.
Some speculation. Perhaps HRC is staging to eventually reign in the Saudi’s. The only issue I believe is not a political calculation and rather a strong belief of hers is promoting women’s rights, which may not bode well for the Kingdom. Perhaps, HRC’s promotion of fracking has more to do with reducing dependence on the Middle East oil and giving her a free hand to start to pressure the Kingdom on this issue.
Shale Bubble
There are earlier emails where Clinton acknowledged around 2011 or earlier that “private Saudi citizens” were funding jihadist terrorist groups. Her aim was to push the government to crack down on these individuals. She obviously was trying to give the regime a way out of taking any blame. Mabye also a chance to stop their support and funding but that is pushing it. The end result? Emails much later showing her staff high fiving each other on Christmas Eve on the green light for one of the largest ever arm sales to Saudi Arabia. The irony, the utter irony.
The Clintons’ relationship I suspect is one of those public/private divides she uses as her model of insider politics.
“The 9/11 Commission Report suggests…”
__
Mr. Schwartz – Understand one thing; 9/11 was an inside job orchestrated by Dick Cheney and his neocon cabal [Wolfowitz, Feith, Zahheim…]. All roads lead to Israel Mr. Schwartz. All roads lead to Israel.
Check out Christopher Bollyn’s work on the subject of 9/11. Once you know the truth it changes you, you can’t go back.
No. That’s tin foil hat bullshit and the intelligent, well-informed regulars here almost all reject that inanity.
In point of fact, it was Al-Qaeda, and the pilots were Saudis. Moreover, Israel quite possibly knew with some specificity that this was going to happen. But it gave the U.S. government only a general warning because to do more would have given away the fact and extent of Israeli spying on our soil. (I can and will document this upon request.)
Mona, OK, please document!
well posted.
though i second the call for substantiation, for decorum’s sake.
Here ya go. Shortly after 9/11, Fox News ran a 4-part series with Brit Hume and Carl Cameron reporting: “Israel Is Spying In And On The U.S.?” Most mysteriously, it was scrubbed from the Fox site and archives rather quickly.
Bit it’s “out there.” Like here — transcript, too.
i read a lot about that whole 9…1…1… situation and can probably make sense out of it, or at least try. You would be very surprised at the theory i come up with. just ask. ;-)
perhaps i can help, answer questions, i read a lot, my intuition is good, just ask ;-)
Sorry Mona, but YOUR comment is 100% tin-foil hat bullshit.
Some real FACTS:
1. At least 9 of the 19 alleged hijackers were found alive and well after 9/11. One even received a formal apology in Jeddah. They had their passports stolen. Therefore they could not have been the ‘suicide hijackers’ on 9/11, regardless of which country they came from. They were patsies. The real hijackers were never properly identified, and are still at large.
2. Israel was absolutely involved in the 9/11 attacks. Mossad agents were caught filming the attacks while they were happening, dancing and cheering as the towers collapsed while thousands of innocent people – including fireman and policemen – were dying a horrible death.
3. The names of the those Israeli Mossad agents/assets are: Sivan Kurzberg. his brother, Paul Kurzberg, Yaron Shmuel, Oded Ellner and Omer Marmari.
These men were most likely the demolition team who planted the explosives in the WTC complex.
4. They were working for a Mossad front company in New Jersey called “Urban Moving Systems”, aka “Max Movers”.
5. They later went back to Israel and arrogantly proclaimed on Israeli TV that the reason they were in America on 9/11 was to “document the event”.
How did they know there would be an event if they didn’t plan it?
Even if they didn’t plan it, they knew about it and let it happen! Thousands of innocent people died and they could have prevented it all from happening. Instead, they filmed the attack and danced and cheered while thousands of people were murdered.
6. Cui bono? Israel.
These are the irrefutable facts.
The “19 Saudi hijacker terrorists” is conspiracy theory bullshit given to the world by the Bush administration.
Either you believe the facts or you believe Bush. It’s really a no-brainer.
Israel’s connection to 9/11 MUST be investigated. To suggest otherwise is to support the real terrorists.
Which side are you on?
Mona, who are you trying to protect?
http://www.911truth.org/the-top-40-reasons-to-doubt-the-offical-story
“In point of fact, it was Al-Qaeda, and the pilots were Saudis. ”
You know nothing of what happened. You have not the intellectual tools to understand physics.
STFU wrt 911.
Stick to handing out labels; that’s your wheelhouse.
(This reply is also for Wayne and A. Citizen.)
You, nug said, are a demented antisemite who is hostile to me because I insist on pointing that out. In any event, I do, in fact, know what happened on 9/11.
By both temperament and professional training I am highly qualified to separate, on the one hand, reliable experts and narratives from, on the other, the unreliable and/or crankish.
Having examined several “Truther” narratives I determine it to be crankery.
“are a demented antisemite who is hostile to me”
I am not hostile; i’m simply pointing out your fallacies regarding you’re ignorance of the facts surrounding the 9/11 attacks- and your willing to seek out the truth.
And you would suggest that I am an “anti-semite” because I called out Israel’s motive and deception?
I thought that anti-semites were “jew-haters”?
I have no problem with Jewish people or anyone else. It is a person’s actions that define their character – not their race, religion, creed, skin color or sexuality.
If I called out the Italian mafia on a drug smuggling operation that they were involved in, would that also make me a bigoted racist who hates Italian people? Or racist against the Chinese if I called out crimes of the Triad?
You have no basis in fact which is why you attempt to slander people. You simply do not have the ability to challenge facts, either because you are ignorant of them or because you are intentionally hiding them.
Please stop trolling with your lies and disinformation and slanderous accusations.
All you are doing is helping the terrorists achieve their goals.
Is that really your true intention?
No, that was specific for nuf said. He has posted incontrovertibly (among reasonable people) antisemitic sentiments.
The rest of my comment is, however, in answer to three of you. Your argumentation has many of the characteristics of cranks.
Mona: “(This reply is also for Wayne and A. Citizen.)”
Mona: “No, that was specific for nuf said. ”
Sorry but you just contradicted yourself…
“By both temperament and professional training I am highly qualified…”
Yes, i’m sure that you are a legend in your own mind.
That doesn’t excuse your willful ignorance of scientific fact or your failed attempts to discredit them.
Please tell us who you are working for.
That is hilarious. temperament lol!
Professional training that skipped math! Bwahahaha!
Tells us of your knowledge of chemistry sufficient to debunk Dr Jones chemical analysis of the dust from 911.
-Mona- is the very definition of crankery.
Once you become a Truther, it changes you. You can’t go back.
I know. I’ve been trying to deprogram them for years. Hopeless.
“I know. I’ve been trying to deprogram them for years. Hopeless.”
You’ve spun your web of fallacy many a time. I’ve done my best to dissuade you but you’re like a dog with a bone … (post that video of the blacksmith and his take on thermodynamics- it’s a hoot)
You mock the word ‘nano’ when nano-technology is the level at which we manipulate things these days. Back when you were a kid, it was micro-technology. Micro is the scale of 10^-6 while nano is 10^-9 meters.
Mocking nano-technology today is no different than mocking micro-computers in the 70s.
Wait! You didn’t, did you? (sigh …)
Two words: Free Fall.
If you are prone to believe the ‘inside job’ meme then you must understand that the whole cabal must have begun under Al Gore, the real Dark Lord
This is actually a Clinton statement that I don’t mind and that I fully agree with! Should Clinton get in, if this is an indication, she may crack down on the Saudis- and it would be about time. One would hope Trump would as well. The same goes for Johnson and Stein.
Orv, I don’t mind the statement either, but that is not her or Obama’s public position. HRC will be doing damage control on this leak as the Saudi’s will be pissed of about its implication in the coming 9-11 lawsuit.
what liberal bias bs. no one has any evidence that the hacks are from Russia.