For years, WikiLeaks has been publishing massive troves of documents online — usually taken without authorization from powerful institutions and then given to the group to publish — while news outlets report on their relevant content. In some instances, these news outlets work in direct partnership with WikiLeaks — as the New York Times and The Guardian, among others, did when jointly publishing the Iraq and Afghanistan war logs and U.S. diplomatic cables — while other times media outlets simply review the archives published by WikiLeaks and then report on what they deem newsworthy.
WikiLeaks has always been somewhat controversial, but reaction has greatly intensified this year because many of its most significant leaks have had an impact on the U.S. presidential election and, in particular, have focused on Democrats. As a result, Republicans who long vilified the group as a grave national security threat have become its biggest fans (“I love WikiLeaks,” Donald Trump gushed last night, even though he previously called for Edward Snowden to be executed), while Democrats who cheered the group for its mass leaks about Bush-era war crimes now scorn it as an evil espionage tool of the Kremlin.
The group’s recent publication of the emails of Clinton campaign chair John Podesta has been particularly controversial because it comes less than a month before the election; it included all sorts of private and purely personal exchanges along with substantive, newsworthy material; and it was obtained through actions that were likely criminal (hacking). Compounding the intensity of the debate is the now standard Democratic campaign tactic of reflexively accusing adversaries of being tools or agents of Moscow.
As a result, it’s worth reviewing a few crucial principles and facts about the journalistic process. It’s vital to emphasize that there are two entirely independent questions presented by all this: (1) Were the hackers who took Podesta’s emails — and WikiLeaks, which published them all without curating them for relevance and harm — justified in doing so? And (2) once those emails were taken by the hackers and published in full by WikiLeaks, what is the obligation of journalists with regard to reporting on them? I’ve spoken a lot in the past about question (1) — including explaining why, rather than just indiscriminately dumping the Snowden archive and other leaks we’ve received, we instead carefully curate the materials and only publish what is newsworthy — so, here, I’m going to address only the second question.
When it comes to the question of whether and how the Podesta email archive should be reported, there are, in my view, five principles that ought to guide the decision-making process:
Some have been arguing that because these hacks were engineered by the Russian government with the goal of electing Trump or at least interfering in U.S. elections, journalists should not aid this malevolent scheme by reporting on the material. Leaving aside the fact that there is no evidence (just unproven U.S. government assertions) that the Russian government is behind these hacks, the motive of a source is utterly irrelevant in the decision-making process about whether to publish.
Once the journalist has confidence in the authenticity of the material, the only relevant question is whether the public good from publishing outweighs any harm. And if the answer to that question is “yes,” then the journalist has not only the right, but the absolute duty, to report on it. It’s often — perhaps almost always — the case that sources have impure motives: a desire for vengeance, careerism, ideological or political advantage, a sense of self-importance, some delusional grievance, a desire for profit. None of that is relevant to the journalist, whose only concern should be reporting on newsworthy material, regardless of why it was made available.
Last week, the three-time Pulitzer Prize-winning New York Times reporter David Barstow was interviewed about his decision to publish Donald Trump’s 1995 tax return even though he has no idea who sent the tax return to the paper, what their motives were, or whether that person committed any crimes in obtaining it. It’s well worth listening to this two-minute audio as Barstow explains why, as a journalist, he does not care at all who his source is, what motives they have, or whether they acted criminally in obtaining the information:
Why NYT's David Barstow does not care who leaked us Trump's tax return, or what the motivation was. Listen: https://t.co/Bm5nGQ1oQM
— Michael Barbaro (@mikiebarb) October 4, 2016
As Barstow points out, some of the most important sources in the history of American journalism had horrible motives. For that reason, “What really matters to me is: Is this information real, and if so, is it newsworthy?” That is the only consideration for real journalists.
Others have claimed that journalists should not report on the Podesta archive because the materials were obtained through hacking, a crime; a related argument is that by reporting on material from this archive, journalists are rewarding acts of theft and/or encouraging future similar acts of hacking. Acceptance of that view would destroy much of investigative journalism. It is often the case that critical stories a journalist reports are the byproduct of information that a source has obtained without authorization or even criminally.
The New York Times was able to publish the Pentagon Papers because Daniel Ellsberg took them without authorization, and was prosecuted for doing so. The same is true of the crucial archives provided by both Chelsea Manning and Edward Snowden. Every significant story involving the revelation of classified information — from Dana Priest’s Pulitzer-winning exposure of CIA black sites to James Risen and Eric Lichtblau’s Pulitzer-winning uncovering of Bush’s domestic warrantless eavesdropping program — involves a source breaking the law to enable that reporting.
The Washington Post was able to expose the FBI’s COINTELPRO program because a group of citizens broke into the FBI’s office and stole its files. It’s quite possible that whoever took Trump’s tax returns and sent them to the NYT did so in violation of the law, though few would argue that the NYT should not have published that tax return if it turned out that laws were broken by the source (indeed, the NYT published the tax returns without having any idea who sent them or whether crimes were committed).
No serious journalist would refrain from publishing a newsworthy story because the source broke the law to obtain it. Many of the most celebrated journalism stories of the last several decades involve sources who broke the law to provide the information.
Last night, I was on Chris Hayes’s show (video below) discussing the Podesta email leak and made this point, and some people reacted as though this were some bizarre, exotic claim — rather than what it is: the fundamental principle of journalism as well the basis of numerous laws. Of course it’s the case that the more power someone has, the less privacy they have, and every media outlet, literally every day, operates on that principle, as do multiple sectors of law.
That there are different standards of privacy for different people based on their power and position is axiomatic. That’s why laws like FOIA requiring disclosure (including of emails) apply only to public officials but not to private citizens: It embraces the proposition that those who wield public power submit to greater transparency than private citizens do. This same principle is why people cheered when the NYT published Trump’s tax return even though they’d be horrified if the NYT published the tax return of ordinary citizens — because people like Trump who wield or seek great political power sacrifice some degree of privacy.
Media outlets constantly report on the private matters of powerful people or institutions that they would never even consider exposing if it involved non-powerful actors. When Paul Manafort became Trump’s campaign chairman, his financial transactions were of much greater public interest than they were when he was just a private citizen. And various realms of law, such as the law of defamation, impose different standards on public figures than on private citizens.
John Podesta is easily one of the most powerful people in the country. He’s a former White House chief of staff, current campaign chairman for the candidate highly likely to be the most powerful official on the planet within less than three months, and almost certain to occupy a top position in the Clinton White House. This does not mean, of course, that he has no privacy: His communications of a purely private or personal nature should not be published or reported.
But it’s beyond dispute that the public interest in knowing what he is doing and saying regarding public matters is much higher than it is for ordinary citizens. That’s why every media outlet in the country has reported on the content of his emails even though they would not report on the emails of people with no political power: because all media outlets regard the privacy entitlement of powerful, political figures as less than that of ordinary, private actors.
Democratic partisans have attempted to belittle or dismiss the stories from the Podesta archive by claiming that none of them reveal any earth-shattering or “shocking” scandals (that’s the same tactic used to dismiss away all revelations about institutions people love, including from the Manning and Snowden files). They appear to believe it’s interesting that devoted supporters of Hillary Clinton have decided that none of these documents reflect poorly on her in any significant way.
But this is an inane standard to apply. The vast majority of reporting done by journalists is not about uncovering cataclysmic scandals or “shocking” people. Whether something is “shocking” is not the standard of what is newsworthy. I would hope nobody finds it remotely “shocking” that Donald Trump is a serial groper of women; despite its being utterly expected, it’s still newsworthy to report it. Journalism is about shining a light on what the most powerful factions do in the dark, about helping people understand how they operate. Not every story is going to be “shocking” or spawn a new, major scandal. That doesn’t mean it should be suppressed.
This reaction is also based in a self-absorbed bias. Many longtime journalists or political junkies already know that politicians are typically disingenuous, dishonest, and manipulate public opinion, and this jaded perspective causes them to react with boredom toward stories that reveal this. But journalism isn’t about entertaining veterans of political journalism or feeding them new tidbits that they did not already know. It’s about providing the public with information that they can use to better understand the world and, in particular, what those who wield the greatest power are doing. Just because a political journalist thinks he already knows something doesn’t mean that the general public already knows it, or doesn’t want to learn more about it.
Moreover, that certain behavior is “common” among politicians does not mean that it is justified, nor does it negate the newsworthiness of revealing new details about it. To dismiss stories showing the dishonesty or manipulations of politicians on the ground that such behavior is “common” is just a way of normalizing that behavior.
The Podesta emails provide unprecedented insight into how a modern presidential campaign operates, the tactics it uses for shaping public opinion, the trade-offs and compromises it makes to secure support and obtain power. Beyond that, they reveal the thought processes and behaviors of the top advisers to the person who, very shortly, will almost certainly occupy the Oval Office — and, in some instances, the thought processes of Hillary Clinton herself. As such, even if they don’t “shock” people who have worked for 30 years in journalism, they are of great journalistic value for showing the public what takes place behind the curtain and how the most politically powerful people in the nation speak and reason about public matters when they think nobody is watching.
The often-heard objection that journalists should not act as arbiters of privacy or gatekeepers of information is just absurd. All journalism entails exactly those judgments: about what should or should not be published, and about what invasions of privacy are or are not justified in the public interest.
When the New York Times publishes state secrets, it acts as an “arbiter” of what should and should not be disclosed. When The Guardian and The Intercept and the Washington Post chose to publish some material from the Snowden archive but not all — on the ground that some of the material would destroy innocent people’s lives or reputations — they acted as “gatekeepers” of information. Literally every act of journalism entails this process. A core purpose of the First Amendment’s free press guarantee was to add an additional safeguard against excess government secrecy by ensuring that others beyond government officials made decisions about what the public knows. If you find it objectionable that journalists act as “arbiters” or “gatekeepers,” then you simply don’t believe in journalism, since all journalism entails that.
* * * * *
It is, of course, understandable, or at least utterly predictable, that Hillary Clinton’s supporters will try to find ways to delegitimize all reporting that reflects negatively on her, while justifying and glorifying all reporting that reflects negatively on Republicans. Much of the furious reaction to WikiLeaks is about little other than that.
But journalism needs principles, not ad hoc decisions based on maximizing partisan advantage. And the most commonly applied principles render it a very easy call whether to report on the contents of the Podesta email archive, which is why every major media outlet in the U.S. is reporting on it. For more on this debate, see the segment I did last night with Chris Hayes:
Glenn, two points are missing from your essay and should be addressed.
First, Julian Assuage’s over-hyping each release, and the timing of such releases (for example, on the eve of the Democratic national convention), seriously undercut the claim that he and his organization are some sort of guardians of openness, and instead paints them as attention-mongers and partisans. I understand that your argument is that the motives of the source are irrelevant, but at a minimum one must point out that this behavior is doing serious harm to Assuage’s reputation, and further, at some point a self-respecting journalist must ask themselves why they should play a part in what is little more than a narcissist’s ploy to garner more attention. After all, what real value is there in, for example, gossipy emails about whether Chelsea Clinton is a brat? Answer: No value whatsoever. Journalistic integrity in the US would improve if ya’all would put Assuage on the ignore list, at least until his paranoid hatred of Clinton passes.
Second, while it is true that we do not know for certain if Russian intelligence is behind these hacks, it is nonetheless a good assumption and requires increased vigilance regarding the authenticity of the documents. After all, it would hardly be surprising to learn that Russian government has (or will) use sophisticated mechanisms to doctor the documents. If doctored documents containing fabricated bombshell information against Clinton are released in the next two weeks, this could have a dramatic and lasting impact on American democracy, and it hardly seems paranoid to me to believe that the possibility of this happening is fairly high. Indeed this undermines the entire Wikileak project and serves as a frightening reminder of what a dangerous game they are (perhaps unwittingly) playing.
>>> Second, while it is true that we do not know for certain if Russian intelligence is behind these hacks,<<<
Podesta's password was "password"…. see my post about HILLARY AND PODESTA … "NUTS"…
PROOF THAT HILLARY IS NUTS and PODESTA IS NUTS
Podesta’s password was emailed to himself. p@ssw0rd
CLASSIC weak password — can be guessed in less than 1/10th of a second even by a human (the most common passwords used in password cracker programs second to “password”)
Wanna bet Hillary and her Klan have the SAME password???? These people are in control of American’s cyber security? Nukes?
In fact, Hillary threated “total war” against Russia because Podesta’s password was password.
F’N NUTS. Hillary and her fellow nutjobs should be hanging by the neck from a Christmas Tree.
https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/22335
————————————————–
2 things
From:eryn.sepp@gmail.com
To: john.podesta@gmail.com
Date: 2015-02-19 00:35
Subject: 2 things
Though CAP is still having issues with my email and computer, yours is good to go.
jpodesta p@ssw0rd
I warn you, the Windows 8 system is VERY different from what we had back at the WH. Might require a tutorial. It’s an operating system that is best with touch screens, which we obviously don’t have. If you need tech’s help, they’re at x5683. Otherwise, I can show you some tricks when I get in. I have it on my home computer, and it took a while to get used to completely.
Second thing, because of the snow day, my makeup passport appt is tomorrow at 8 am nearby State. No clue how long this takes. If you haven’t seen it, earlier I sent you your schedule in an attachment. First thing is Roger Altman at 10:45 am. I’ll have my phone the whole time and will check email often.
ps…. I heard Hillary’s new password is p@$$w0rd111333
Glenn, isn’t it a little problematic to say, “a sources motives are irrelevant” and then critically examine the WaPo for throwing Ed Snowden under the bus? In my mind this is effectively like saying–in all cases–that a source is anonymous both to me as a journalist and to the world at large, and therefore I need not care about how the information was garnered–a little like getting immediate amnesia after speaking with/getting information from the source. But if that’s the case, then when a source is known to the world at large–why is it unethical to suggest that breaking the law is wrong? Should news publications be in the business of taking positions on which laws are bad? And if so, which laws; isn’t it a little more difficult to determine the public good as opposed to the public interest? And if not, then why is suggesting Ed Snowden should be prosecuted (as one might think people who break the law should be) wrong?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xW4WcaA35D4&feature=youtu.be
The same company was investigated for e-poll fraud.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MJq9I0HMNEY
“the only relevant question is whether the public good from publishing outweighs any harm”
Fair enough. If publishing the material facilitates the aims of a foreign government trying to influence the US presidential election, how does that serve the public good in a way that outweighs the harm? It seems to me that the harm is considerable.
“Leaving aside the fact that there is no evidence (just unproven U.S. government assertions) that the Russian government is behind these hacks,
Except for the evidence from several private security companies:
https://www.buzzfeed.com/sheerafrenkel/meet-fancy-bear-the-russian-group-hacking-the-us-election?utm_term=.avbRK2AbA#.hqGnlKBRB
https://www.secureworks.com/research/threat-group-4127-targets-google-accounts?platform=hootsuite
http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a49791/russian-dnc-emails-hacked/
http://motherboard.vice.com/read/how-hackers-broke-into-john-podesta-and-colin-powells-gmail-accounts
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/21/us/private-security-group-says-russia-was-behind-john-podestas-email-hack.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news
https://motherboard.vice.com/read/dnc-hack-what-we-know-and-what-we-still-dont-know
https://twitter.com/RidT/status/789097977352691712
Not sure why anyone would totally ignore this evidence, but it is there. Maybe Glenn could ask Guccifer 2 about it.
That’s a lot of links. Care to actually parse that info? Because I suspect it ain’t gonna turn out to be much, and no, I will not visit all your linkies in search of what you claim to be the smoking sausages.
I disagree only with your #4. The importance of the revelation IS relavant as it should be weighed against the loss in privacy. That is true even with public figures—even a President has some privacy rights. If an email from a President to a friend on a purely private matter were stolen, would you consider it ethical to publish?
In this case most of the people embarassed are well below the public figure level of Clinton or even Podesta.
A reporter makes a joke about being a hack and the statement is spread over the internet as a confession. Only the out-of-context version of his statement has any news value. I do not see any public value to the information that remotely justify the invasion of privacy.
DocHollywood
“……My advice: play hard to get. Really hard to get……”
Dumb-ass
The post lightly [edited] for accuracy:
“[It’s g]reat to see [another opportunity for] promoting [my] same a[ssine comments:]
Is there any end to [me looking like such] a dumb-ass? The answer is emphatically “no” when you consider that you [showed that my repugnant justification for] torture [would be just as repugnant when applied to some other repugnant act like] rape[, but because I don’t understand moral principles, I still don’t get it]:
That was certainly one of the top three dumbest comments I have seen on these threads [- the other two also belong to me], but now you are trying to connect [what two top ranking US military officers [Generals (retired) Wesley Clark and Micheal Flynn) said about the war the US planned and initiated in Syria] and the war [the US planned] in Syria (and specifically the initiation of the war).
[You didn’t] suggest that the neocons were running the Obama Administration[; that’s just my dumb-ass straw man.] So when Obama made the decision to negotiate a nuclear agreement with Iran instead of take them out[; I] have to be a complete dumb-ass to suggest [that no one in Washington is trying to undermine the agreement]. Comprende?
When Obama elected to negotiate a diplomatic solution with Russia and remove Assad’s stockpile of chemical weapons, [I] have to be a complete dumb-ass to believe that [was the end of demands for “regime change”]. Comprende?
When Obama re-established diplomatic relations with Syria in 2010, [I] have to be a dumb-ass to believe that the [the terrorists now attacking Syria don’t have US arms.] Comprende?
When in 2007 [the former Supreme Commander of NATO’s military forces revealed the memo outlining the plans for war in the Middle East, I] have to be a dumb-ass to [deny there are wars in the Middle East]. Comprende?
When [the US] made the decision to [support the Salafists and what later became ISIS – the terrorist group I don’t want the US to bomb – [I] have to be an order of magnitude bigger dumb-ass than has ever been previously identified on earth to [deny it].
If [I] were halfway bright, [I would never] have [made-up my straw man argument; I would have] even admitted that [I am] a real dumb-ass to have suggested it in the first place, but then again, that is what defines a dumb-ass. Once a dumb-ass always a dumb-ass, I [am].”
Finally something I can agree with, how refreshing!
Why are all other journalists such creeps???
@JLocke on U.S. v. Russia in Syria
At least you are grappling with the elephant in the room: Russia, it’s perceived Syrian interests, and reasonably anticipated response to various U.S. military actions. Those shrieking at people like me about dead Syrian children, that we are “pro-Assad” & etc. are flatly unwilling to discuss those calculations and dynamics. (One on Twitter dismisses my persistence in raising these issues as “vacuous.”)
Until the interventionists DIRECTLY address what EXACTLY they think I should be willing to advocate the U.S./West do in Syria, and DIRECTLY explain how Russia can reasonably be expected to respond, I will continue to disdain them. Simply stating “I don’t think they’d want WWIII” is insufficient; once the dogs of war are unleashed no one can control them.
“……..Both countries have analysts that will assess the risks and rewards in advance of any actual fighting. I would expect both countries would not resort to something resembling WWIII, or an all out nuclear war. ……” – JLocke
It’s potentially a dangerous situation if the US intervenes and creates a no-fly zone, but Mona is fear mongering and throwing out political drivel by saying Hillary wants a war with Russia:
“…….Hillary Clinton really does want to go to war with Russia. This sociopathic freak actually has no reticence about a brinksmanship that could cause WWIII….” – Mona
That is still not as idiotic as saying PNAC initiated the war in Syria, however.
Readers: About 95% of the time I do not substantively reply to Craig Summers, who is an authoritarian, pro-torture, Republican Trump-voter. Multiple commenters asked that I not reply to Craig because doing so causes him to post yet more walls of drivel-text, which pollutes the board. I intend to follow that same course here.
Please, however, do note my final two paragraphs in a post from below, to wit:
It’s time to get this up in the thread anyway. See this Foreign Policy article: The Kremlin Really Believes That Hillary Wants to Start a War With Russia. By an American stationed at Moscow’s Foreign Ministry.
(Craig has already seen this and I wouldn’t offer it for him anyway, but some new readers may not have.)
Mona
“……..Pay attention to pro-interventionists in these threads, on Twitter, and everywhere else. They will not grapple with the Russia issue. They pretend it isn’t there…….”
“………[It isn’t there for Craig Summers either. All interventionists — all, in every venue — simply act as if Russia and its identified interests in Syria do not exist.]……”
Can you post anything that suggests that I am pro interventionist in Syria? I have just mentioned on several occasions that the White Helmets support a no fly zone for obvious reasons which you refuse to acknowledge. Do you think that the White Helmets supporting a no fly zone is an unreasonable request by by a humanitarian organization considering that over 160 of them have been killed while saving tens of thousands of people? They are not military experts. That should be fairly easy for even you to answer.
By the way, the idea of a no fly zone (or a safe zone) has been discussed and rejected numerous times by the Obama administration over the past five years. There is currently frustration with the Russian destruction of Aleppo – targeting civilians, hospitals and clinics (from people who actually care about humanitarian issues). That is what is driving the current debate. Russian geopolitical interests are behind the brutal bombing in Aleppo (just as it did in Grozny). Who really is acting like Hitler in this case Mona?
Readers: About 95% of the time I do not substantively reply to Craig Summers, who is an authoritarian, pro-torture, Republican Trump-voter. Multiple commenters asked that I not reply to Craig because doing so causes him to post yet more walls of drivel-text, which pollutes the board. I intend to follow that same course here.
Please, however, do note my final two paragraphs in a post from below, to wit:
By the way, I actually did support intervention in Syria one time which was the “red line” moment for Obama. The decision by Obama to negotiate an agreement with the Russians was nothing more less than an open invitation for Putin to intervene militarily which led to the current brutal bombing campaign.
Thank you for being a true Journalist. It is a rarity to find these days.
“Not for the first time, Marine Le pen claims she has nothing against Jews….but then why does she want to ban the kippa? What does this measure have to do with the development of Islam in France?”
The Donald Trumps of France want “Frexit” (separation of France from the European Union and the human rights protections the Union offers), they want Muslims out, and they want Jews out.
Well they don’t say exactly that they want Jews and Muslims out, they say Jews and Muslims can stay as long as they stop wearing Jewish and Muslim clothing. No more “kippas”, no more headscarves. I’d argue that welcoming Jews as long as they don’t wear kippas is no less absurd than asking Jews to stay….as long as they don’t observe a kosher diet, or attend synagogue, or think Jewish thoughts. And I think Marine Le Pen is making it perfectly clear the perils of standing by and allowing the scapegoating of Muslim citizens, under the assumption that other groups will be spared from the same bigotry.
On this rare occasion, I direct readers to Craig Summers’ post immediately below. It collects various of my statements about the documented facts vis-a-vis Russia’s belief that the United States is preparing for a war against them over matters in Syria.
Most of those quotes link to articles — in reputable outlets — by American journalists or researchers reporting from Russia. With all that in mind, then consider what I wrote several days ago, to wit:
Here and on Twitter I have repeatedly inquired of advocates of intervention in Syria, and/or those who spew horrible crap about Max Blumenthal regarding Syria, to directly address the documented fact that Russia believes it has vital interests in Syria. I have further asked them to address the fact that Russia also believes, for good reason, that the U.S. is pushing for war.
No one — no one— will directly address the risks of WWIII entailed in the U.S. imposing a No Fly Zone against Russian warplanes or any other military measures that Russia would deem to threaten its interests.
What I get instead is endless litanies of fallacies: whataboutery, straw men, ad hominem, misdirection. Anything but head-on attention to the primary objection people like Max and I have, i.e., a war of us against Russia.
Pay attention to pro-interventionists in these threads, on Twitter, and everywhere else. They will not grapple with the Russia issue. They pretend it isn’t there.
[It isn’t there for Craig Summers either. All interventionists — all, in every venue — simply act as if Russia and its identified interests in Syria do not exist.]
Correction: “direct readers to Craig Summers’ post immediately below.” Should read: “direct readers to Craig Summers’ post two below.”
Correction: A litany of anti-HRC political commentary (Hitler mona?) and fear-mongering
Readers: About 95% of the time I do not substantively reply to Craig Summers, who is an authoritarian, pro-torture, Republican Trump-voter. Multiple commenters asked that I not reply to Craig because doing so causes him to post yet more walls of drivel-text, which pollutes the board. I intend to follow that same course here.
Please, however, do note my final two paragraphs in my main post, to wit:
I know both Clinton (keeping in mind she has both public and private positions) and Trump (insofar as Trump has any positions) support a “no-fly zone” and a “safe zone” respectively.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/10/19/us/elections/presidential-candidates-on-syria-no-fly-zone.html?_r=0
I think there is objective evidence that Russia is fortifying their positions in anticipation of an increased US bombardment of Syria. I don’t think the Americans will challenge that unless they have a way of defeating Russian defences (and are prepared to expose to the world that capability).
It is for the US to dislodge the Russians. Could they do it, either gradually with carefully chosen strikes…or in one massive blitz?…or by military or non-military pressure on Russia elsewhere? A military confrontation would be an interesting test of the two countries current capabilities (probably one of the motivating factors for their respective arms industries)
I don’t think either country wants a tough fight. The Americans won’t attack unless they think they can defeat air defences without many casualties. For the Russians, they wont make a stand unless they both feel they can and they must. And for the Russians, as they say “possession is nine tenths of the law”, if they can deny the Americans the air space needed to hit Syrian or Russian targets, and the Americans challenge that and are defeated, it will be a political disaster for the US. If Russia is unable to defend Syrian and their own positions against America, it will be an embarrassment for Russia. It’s definitely high stakes. Both countries have analysts that will assess the risks and rewards in advance of any actual fighting. I would expect both countries would not resort to something resembling WWIII, or an all out nuclear war. Although I’d be surprised if, in watching the calibre of today’s candidates for US president, and their willingness to pump up anti-Russian sentiment, the Russians are taking anything for granted. And they’d be extremely foolish to neglect their nuclear deterrent to the point that the Americans felt confident they could take it out with a first strike.
DocHollywood
Great to see you are still promoting the same absurd conspiracy theories, Doc.
“………….The war [of aggression, the “supreme international war crime” in the words of the Nuremberg Tribunals,] was initiated by the A[merican] regime [as described years ago in the PNAC and subsequently confirmed by Former Supreme Military Commander of NATO , General Wesley Clark, and Former Director of the US Defense Intelligence Agency, General Michael Flynn]. Bringing up PNAC simply [confirms the supreme international war crime had been planned all along, but to a dishonest psychopath that fact] doesn’t mean anything.”……….” – DocHollywood
“………“This is a memo that describes how we’re going to take out seven countries in five years, starting with Iraq, and then Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and, finishing off, Iran.”…….” – Wesley Clark describing a memo (shortly after 911)
Is there any end to you calling yourself a dumb-ass? The answer is emphatically “no” when you consider that you once made an analogy between torture and rape (and defended it):
“…….But there is a debate on whether torture works or not – and it is not irrelevant…….” – CraigSummers
“………He could be making the same disgusting claims about “whether rape works or not” and be no less repugnant………” – DocHollywood
That was certainly one of the top three dumbest comments I have seen on these threads, but now you are trying to promote a two bit conspiracy theory to connect PNAC and the war in Syria (and specifically the initiation of the war). You are suggesting that the neocons were running the Obama Administration. So when Obama made the decision to negotiate a nuclear agreement with Iran instead of take them out, you have to be a complete dumb-ass to suggest the neocons were pressing Obama to make that agreement. Comprende?
When Obama elected to negotiate a diplomatic solution with Russia and remove Assad’s stockpile of chemical weapons, you have to be a complete dumb-ass to believe that the neocons supported that decision over bombing Assad and taking the Assad regime out (the red line). Comprende?
When Obama re-established diplomatic relations with Syria in 2010, you have to be a dumb-ass to believe that the neocons supported that decision considering that the neocons had their largest influence on the Bush administration which had CUT off diplomatic relations as a response to the assassination of the former Prime Minister of Lebanon. Comprende?
When even Bush declined to give a green light to Israel to bomb the Iranian nuclear facilities in late 2007, you have to be a dumb-ass to believe that the neocons were behind that decision. That decision by Bush certainly put a nail in the coffin of the wish list of the neocons – and Iran was the most important country on the list. Comprende?
When Assad made the decision to militarily crack down on hundreds of thousands of peaceful protesters in 2011 initiating the war in Syria, you have to be an order of magnitude bigger dumb-ass than has ever been previously identified on earth to connect this event with PNAC. Comprende?
If you were halfway bright, you have dropped this conspiracy theory early on, or even admitted that you have to be a real dumb-ass to have suggested it in the first place, but then again, that is what defines a dumb-ass. Once a dumb-ass always a dumb-ass, I suppose.
Kudos to craigsummers: he hasn’t ever made a more thoughtful post, and his logic has never been better.
Mona running in Hysteria mode over HRC (“Hitler”) starting a war with Russia:
“……In Russian politicians are preparing the citizenry for WWIII. Some are stockpiling canned goods , learning about bomb shelters, and on like that. Their media is suffused with even more paranoia about the intentions of the West than usual — theyreally believe we are prepared to commence WWIII over Syria……”
“……..horrible crap about Max Blumenthal regarding Syria, to directly address the documented fact that Russia believes it has vital interests in Syria. I have further asked them to address the fact that Russia believes, for good reason, that the U.S. is pushing for war……”
“……The more exposure I had to the pro-interventionists on the left, the more all I saw was disgusting behavior no different than the Israel apologists’ antics. Utterly refusing to address the actual points made, especially about what Russia would do in response to a NFZ. (Like it or not, Russia believes it has vital interests in Syria.)……”
“…….The most horrifying thing I took from that article is the further evidence that Russians are truly preparing for all-out war with the United States. They reasonably believe the U.S. wants that. Especially Hillary Clinton want that……”
“……..When I was about 13 I asked my historian father how WWI began. He launched into this baffling stuff about an Archduke getting shot and how a bunch of folks got pissed off, one thing led to another, and soon carnage reigned in Europe. Nearly all the young men of a generation hideously died or were horribly maimed……”
“……Now, the world is poised on WWIII with many in the U.S. saber-rattling at Russia, a country that is acting as if it believes we want war. (And Hillary does want at least to go to the brink.) This is truly terrifying, he is spewing all the indicted propaganda about Russia to make that unthinkable event seem more “necessary.”……”
“……Hillary Clinton really does want to go to war with Russia. This sociopathic freak actually has no reticence about a brinksmanship that could cause WWIII……”
The post lightly [edited] for accuracy:
“[Let me] point out the perfect divide between [the standards I apply to “us” and those I apply to “others”]. Why [don’t I criticize both the US [except when it’s bombing ISIS] and Russia[? Because international] law and the targeting [of] civilians [in] hospitals[, and funerals, and weddings, and schools, and markets, and more weddings do not] concern [me when it comes to the US and its clients, but are positively sacred when it comes to US enemies. So I righteously squawk about Russia’s “ILLEGAL!” annexation of Crimea or atrocities in Syria, but am silent on the illegal US war on Syria that was planned many years ago.
My] first priority is to oppose [reality and morality] at all costs. [So I pretend that in 2007 General (retired) Wesley Clark, former Supreme Allied Commander of NATO never said these words:
I also] make up definitions in which [described comes to mean blame. From there, it somehow follows that recalling] what America [and its vassals] did to Iraq[, Libya, and Afghanistan] becomes nothing but cheap, insincere [learning from history].
Nothing points out [my] hypocrisy quite like [what I say.] There are ongoing Russian and Syrian atrocities (which [I rightly condemn]). However,
if[when] the USwais doing the [“ILLEGAL!”] bombing, [I am] relentlessly [praising and defending] the US [except when it is bombing ISIS].”Astonishing: Liberal Zionist outlet publishes (newsly) anti-Zionist Jewish-American profs
One of them, Mira Sucharov, not that long ago debated Max Blumenthal in defense of the Zionist project of a Jewish-majority state. Now she and Joshua Schreier publish this at the Forward: If Israel Lets in Palestinian Refugees, Will It Lose Its Jewish Character?
Their answer is: Not in any way that matters. The two note that histrionically in the Middle East and North Africa Jews co-existed with and flourished among Arabs, and go on to state :
The sea change is half-way complete.
Screwed up the link. Let’s try that again: If Israel Lets in Palestinian Refugees, Will It Lose Its Jewish Character?
Liberals support HRC out of fear of a Trump Presidency. The far left detests both, but probably support (the unknown policies) of Trump in favor of Hillary – an establishment candidate who promises to carry on traditional US policies – domestic and foreign.
An area of strong disagreement between the far left and liberals/leftists is on the Presidential race. The left/liberals support HRC, but not because they particularly like her. Hillary has high negative ratings. The media doesn’t particularly like her. Indeed, she is a liar and a lawbreaker supported by the establishment. She is the entitled candidate – potentially the first woman President. She is clearly in bed with corporate interests. However she is lauded for her strong support for Israel and her commitment to allies alienated by the Obama administration. Hillary as President will build closer ties with Saudi Arabia, Egypt and , importantly, with Netanyahu. Relations will likely deteriorate with Iran and Russia. However, her support is derived mostly from a fear of Trump. Robert Mackey (Intercept) certainly supports HRC for that reason. He is a liberal at heart.
The radical left literally cannot stand HRC. Greenwald has written numerous articles about Hillary – none show her in a positive light. While Greenwald acknowledges the shortcomings of Trump (a racist etc.), in my opinion, he views HRC potentially as far more dangerous in foreign policy (support for Israel, Saudi Arabia etc.). Trump at least is an unknown. No one can predict what his policies might be concerning Israel, Russia – or even immigration (etc.). Hillary will absolutely be the status quo for US policies, domestic and foreign (probably looking more like Bush did in his second term). It seems likely with so many unknowns with Trump, it might be worth the risk to “support” him for President, or at least tolerate a Trump Presidency over HRC. Trump is the anti-establishment candidate. In my opinion, the hatred directed at Hillary by the radical left hints at a preference for Trump although few would admit it. While Greenwald has made some qualifying statements about Trump (“Donald Trump, for reasons I’ve repeatedly pointed out, is an extremist, despicable, and dangerous candidate”), he might actually support him very quietly.
U.S. Presidents have pardoned out of prison “School of the Americas” “freedom fighters” under CIA payroll who have blown a civilian plane full of teenagers in midair (even if the justice department had imprisoned him for a string of other reasons, including being indicted in Central America for publicly kicking a pregnant woman) and protected terrorists boasting about having blown people apart in hotels.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cubana_de_Aviaci%C3%B3n_Flight_455
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luis_Posada_Carriles
Constitutional lawyer Mr. “Yes we can” has an excellent chance to put to good use both his executive powers and that Nobel Peace Prize he got about which he was himself cracking jokes.
As Ellsberg has repeatedly said, the notion that Snowden will ever return (to the America he left (my parenthesis)) is absurd. We will have to work hard at making it into a “new ‘America'” that is not ruled by the kinds of folks that are running it today, who don’t seem to have anything “better to do” than starting senselessly abusive wars to “revitalize” the stock market and arresting Amy Goodman.
RCL
Wikipedia founder, Jimmy Wales, has asked Obama to pardon Edward Snowden: Edward Snowden is a saint, not a sinner (my emphasis):
An email from Neera Tanden to John Podesta, about Larry Lessig who wants to get money out of politics:
Wut!!! Neera sounds like that dread scourge I’ve heard about — but never seen — the foul-mouthed and mean “BernieBro.”
Bernie Sanders is the most-liked politician in the United States.
The answer:
Hillary may well only serve one term. Her oldest supporters will be dead in four years, and that’s a huge chunk of her base. And, in turn, another 4-years worth of younger, leftist voters will join the millennials — Bernie’s base.
Other progressives need to tap into Bernie’s vocabulary and base and start building right now. I think that is happening, but it cannot happen soon enough.
Committee: ‘Overwhelming majority’ of Palestinian minors in Israeli custody are ‘tortured’
@JLocke — please focus on RUSSIA
That’s a good point and, but not the most compelling one. Many pro-interventionists ardently believe that Assad is so monstrous and foul that no replacement could be as bad. That’s possible.
But the elephant in the room — the issue that no pro-interventionist answers –is Russia. Whether anyone in the West finds it reasonable or acceptable doesn’t change the fact that Moscow identifies vital interests in Syria.
If, in the next few months, the U.S. were to impose a No Fly Zone and Russian warplanes flew anyway, then what? If U.S. troops invaded and proceeded to make Assad more vulnerable and Russia was alarmed, then what? Pro-interventionists steadfastly will not address that “then what.”
In Russian politicians are preparing the citizenry for WWIII. Some are stockpiling canned goods , learning about bomb shelters, and on like that. Their media is suffused with even more paranoia about the intentions of the West than usual — theyreally believe we are prepared to commence WWIII over Syria.
To repeat some of what I posted last night:
In the pro-interventionist ranks no one — no one— will directly address the risks of WWIII entailed in the U.S. imposing a No Fly Zone against Russian warplanes or any other military measures that Russia would deem to threaten its interests.
What I get instead is endless litanies of fallacies: whataboutery, straw men, ad hominem, misdirection. Anything but head-on attention to the primary objection people like Max Blumenthal and I have, i.e.,a war of us against Russia.
Pay attention to pro-interventionist people in these threads, on Twitter, and everywhere else. They will not grapple with the Russia issue. They pretend it isn’t there.
Trying to contact you via phone. no luck
After all the Bernie Sanders bs,some reality;”Next Gaza War we’ll completely destroy them”.(Hamas and the Palestinians)Lieberman.
F*ck the doofus and all his fellow 3 dollar bill followers.
(Not all his followers,some seemed sincere,just the ones who keep defending him after the revelation that he is a hell bot.)
GG, you articulated this complicated issue very well on the Sunday show. I find it amusing that the target of leaks can switch from high and mighty denial to great affection for Wikileaks, when their “enemy” is the subject of the leak! And the “terrible Russians” ruse is just that. We have scores of spies and propagandists working three shifts at the Pentagon and Laurel Md. !plying their intrusive, nasty trade!
If someone else has made this point before, I apologize. I don’t have time to read through all of the comments.
On point #4. Public officials, elected or appointed, have “the people” as their employer, in theory. My employer gives me an email address for business use and I in no way consider that a private email account. We allow public officials to use email in the course of their work. If they want to receive and send private email, they should use different accounts. If they send private emails on publicly-owned servers, those communications belong to us.
Even Secretary Clinton’s server, although located outside the official, Federal government’s system, still belongs to the public. Emails on these servers are not private. Email that involve classified discussions are another matter.
The “private” emails on Secretary Clinton’s server belong to her employer, who is us. I know that is a quaint idea in this era, a government run of, by, and for the people. But one day we’ll get there in reality.
It’s touching the concern America has for Aleppo now. But don’t you miss the good old days when such cities were the home of Satan and were treated accordingly?
Can’t have hospitals spreading rumours…anymore than you can risk Wikileaks spreading Clinton’s emails. This is the devil we are talking about.
“……..It’s touching the concern America has for Aleppo now. But don’t you miss the good old days when such cities were the home of Satan and were treated accordingly?…..”
Locke points out the divide perfectly between the far left and leftist (and/or liberals). All are on the left side of the political spectrum. Why not criticize both the US and Russia if humanitarian law and targeting civilians/hospitals is your concern? The first priority of the radical left is to oppose America at all costs (or make up that the Neocons started the war in Syria). So attacking what America did in Iraq becomes nothing but cheap, insincere whataboutery.
Nothing points out the hypocrisy of the radical left quite like Murtaza Hussain’s article on the White Helmets. Hussain presented a liberal view of the humanitarian crisis in Syria. In the article, he pinpointed Russian and Syrian regime atrocities (which are still in progress). However, far left below the line commentators (and Russian-bots) focused on an article by (extreme leftist) Max Blumenthal which suggested that the White Helmets supported regime change and were a tool of the US. If the US was doing the bombing, the same hypocrites would have named every child killed – and relentlessly condemned the US for the bombing.
On Syria, ….I guess I missed the part where someone in government or media explained to me why armed groups backed by Saudi and America will be better rulers than the dictatorship backed by Iran and Russia. I can imagine why the Saudi dictatorship or the American empire would want someone affiliated with them to rule Syria. But is that worth the cost of millions of refugees fleeing to Europe, massive long term death and destruction in Syria and the region? All to replace one tyrant with another. Does that benefit Syrians? does that benefit me? No.
@ Gator, on the lessor of (2) evils and the perils of ‘quantitative easing’
>”“LOTE” is your construction, not mine. I don’t think Clinton is evil. I do think Trump is evil. So to me, the contest is between evil and flawed-but-not-evil. Easy call, IMHO.” *Gator
It’s not my construction, Gator! I don’t even believe in evil … it’s against my religion.
*In the case of 2016 LOTE between HRC and Satan (& only HRC or Satan), best guess it’s a rather pernicious myth you’ve read in the New York Times, Gator?
3. ‘quantitative easing’. If Trump is Satan (evil) and HRC is ‘flawed-but-not-evil’ what’s wrong with, e.g., Jill or Gary … or whathisname Nader?
By co-incidence, last night Jon ‘stewart’ Oliver addressed some of that in segment called the ‘lesser of four evils’ ( https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2016/oct/17/john-oliver-last-week-tonight-gary-johnson-jill-stein ) lambasting Jill Stein for comparing the Fed’s ‘quantitative easing’ in the Great Too-Big-To-Fail 08 Wall St. bailout (i.e. the Fed bought a lot of that phony bologna) with her policy on the elimination of the $1.5billion outstanding Student/College Debt. (*disclosure, my progeny prodigy has a lot of College Debt.)
For the record, Gator, I consider the recent phenomena of massive private Student/College Debt almost as ‘evil’ as the private Prison Industry (in fact, I believe an economic incentive to lock people up is un-constitutional). That Jill Stein even addresses it, puts her somewhere way above ‘evil’ and ‘flawed-but-not-evil’ in my book, Gator.
edit. $1.5billion Student/College Debt market should be $1.5Trillion debt in the booming education market.
*$1.5billion is probably the debt carried by Trump University alone.
@Bah – I hear you regarding student debt. I graduated law school 2 decades ago and am still paying for it.
It is entirely possible that Jill Stein would be a better president, perhaps even a much better president, than HRC. But that possibility lacks significance to me at this time, because Stein’s chances of becoming the next president do not exceed my own by any meaningful margin.
Speaking of “self-identifying liberals cheering”, here’s someone, in the wake of Assange’s internet being cut off arguing that “Assange is no hero”. I guess only heroes get to participate in the free press now. Not people that buddy up with Putin….the way Snowden does!!!
Yeah Mackay!, the last thing we need is opposition research on the next president of the United States. If that buffoon Trump doesn’t do it himself, then the world should remain ignorant of what Clinton has said and done!!!
Actually Robert Mackay does a far better job of explaining Wikileaks than Mike Harris.
As for the non-redactions:
Yes that is bad. But I don’t think the US and UK governments are going after Assange because he released a recording of someone pocket-dialling. Wikileaks is a volunteer organization with scarce resources under intense government/banking/media attack.
If Obama isn’t too worked up about American papers selling lies to start the Iraq war, I’m not going to get too worked up about someone’s pocket-dialling going online.
Just as Wikileaks had their banking services cut off, now it’s RT’s turn. Apparently Russia’s threat to retaliate against the Whitehall backed propaganda outlet “BBC” has caused a reversal in British government thinking, but this article is still as true as ever.
This is hilarious, check out the American riot squad lined up to watch journalist Amy Goodman announce that she has been found to be not a “rioter”. How much tax money was spent to determine this?
Amy Goodman – “The media can be the greatest force for peace on Earth, unfortunately it’s all too often wielded as a weapon of war”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HOYevkCicc
“Liberal” Guardian columnist, Jonathan Freedland writes about the hypocrisy of the Stop the War Coalition (“If they really wanted to Stop the War in Syria, they’d target Russia”, 10-14-2016):
“……..Pity the luckless children of Aleppo. If only the bombs raining down on them, killing their parents, maiming their friends, destroying their hospitals – if only those bombs were British or, better still, American. Then the streets of London would be jammed with protestors demanding an end to their agony. Trafalgar Square would ring loud with speeches from Tariq Ali, Ken Loach and Monsignor Bruce Kent. Whitehall would be a sea of placards, insisting that war crimes were being committed and that these crimes were Not in Our Name. Grosvenor Square would be packed with noisy protestors outside the US embassy, urging that Barack Obama be put on trial in The Hague. The protestors would wear Theresa May masks and paint their hands red. And they would be doing it all because, they’d say, they could not bear to see another child killed in Aleppo…….But that is not the good fortune of the luckless children of that benighted city. Their fate is to be terrorised by the wrong kind of bombs, the ones dropped by Bashar al-Assad and Vladimir Putin. As such, they do not qualify for the activist sympathy of the movement that calls itself the Stop the War Coalition……..For it is Russia that is up to its neck in the blood of Aleppo. It is Russia that joins Assad in the bombing of hospitals. It is Russia which stands accused – and credibly accused – of bombing an aid convoy. It is Russia and its Syrian ally that is fond of the “double-tap” tactic, dropping one bomb and then, after an interval which allows time for paramedics to arrive and start treating the injured, drops another on the same spot, killing the rescuers………Russia is deliberately targeting civilians and civilian infrastructure……….”
When it comes to Humanitarian law, the far left only cares about opposing the west. Their hypocrisy could not possibly be more stark.
Max Blumenthal is an anti-Israel activist, anti-Zionist and a clear apologist for Hamas – an internationally recognized terrorist organization. In an interview by Greenwald last year, he served as a mouthpiece for Hamas propaganda:
“……..So, the development of the al-Qassam brigades is one of the untold stories of this war. If we look at the casualty total of Israeli citizens, we see that about 72 Israeli citizens died. Sixty-seven of them were combat soldiers, which is evidence that soldiers and not civilians were targeted…….Mohammed Deif, the commander of the al-Qassam brigades, and his spokesman, Abu Ubaida, both explicitly declared they were targeting Israeli soldiers, and not civilians. They mocked the Israeli military as cowards for attacking civilians in the Gaza Strip……”
Hamas has a two decade history of targeting and murdering civilians (Jews) including children. Their record of governing for the people in Gaza is horrendous leading to three wars with Israel. Hamas operatives murdered the three Israeli teens which led to Operation Protective Edge. Indeed, in March of this year, a Hamas terrorist boarded a bus and set off a bomb injuring 19 Israelis (only killing the terrorist). Blumenthal erased the long record of Hamas atrocities while attempting to promote the terrorists organization to the level of respectability. It’s this kind of denial of humanitarian law for political convenience which sets the radical left apart from most liberals.
In the interview, Blumenthal explains a Hamas operation during Operation Protective Edge:
“……They burst into the military base, killed every soldier they confronted, losing only one man, and then ran back into the tunnel, back to the Gaza Strip, and this operation, the video of it, was deeply inspiring to young Palestinians who had only seen, throughout their lives, video of Palestinians being humiliated by Israeli soldiers……”
You could tell that Blumenthal was gushing with pride as Hamas “killed every soldier they confronted”.
Here’s a good one;Ecuador cuts off Assanges internet access.
Correa is a fan of the Hell bitch.
Open borders here is good for Ecuador there.
Is this guy an idiot?(Correa)Does he think anything good(except bribes)can come from such a corrupt evil person as she?
Nat West shuts RT bank accounts in Britain.
Freedom of the press eh?
I have always respected Snowden. Yet here he is wrong. If ordinary citizens should be afforded PRIVACY from their government spying on them…John Podesta and the DNC deserves PRIVACY from Assange and his powerful forces spying on whom he pleases. PRIVACY IS KEY HERE AND WE MUST STRIVE TO PROTECT WHAT IS LEFT OF IT, FROM ASSANGE/WIKILEAKS AND GOVERNMENTS.
Yet, there is more than one good reason why Glenn is able to go on world tours advertising his books and giving lectures about his version of reality to those not that enlightened and then go back to his jungle love palace in Rio while Manning is in prison (still in solitary confinement?), Assange is rotting under house arrest in the Ecuadorian Embassy in London and Snowden is missing “‘his’ country” …
Imagine, as Lennon’s song goes, that Glenn stops “curating” Snowden leaks and starts calling things and people by their first and proper names and talking to “We the people” in ways that they can understand. Better yet, imagine he dumps the Snowden leaks on wikileaks for all to see! As Glenn has repeatedly said he/theIntercept asks the NSA for “redacting suggestions” and the NSA just gives them the canned response: “all we do is legal, just, fine and dandy; you, ‘unpatriotic’ blah-blah roaches”.
Glenn says he is “protecting” “low level” NSA employees. Protecting them from what? From being “ethical”, “legal”, “responsible”, “patriotic” individuals? You can say that Joe McIntyre is a janitor from the Navy. Why can’t you say he is a proud NSA employee? OK, if all those NSA, CIA, FBI, USG … @ssh0l3s do is “legal” (and, hey!, they even write their own laws!) why is Glenn “‘curating’ legality” and even asking them if his “redacting”/”curating” is OK?
Glenn while sitting on Snowden leaks seems to have found himself looking at the skies from such higher positions that we mere mortals can’t begin to imagine. He seems to not only see himself self-evidently as some sort of Pope while pontificating to us about the “absurdity” of not finding yourself as de facto “arbiter of privacy and gatekeeper of information”:
https://theintercept.com/2016/09/18/washpost-makes-history-first-paper-to-call-for-prosecution-of-its-own-source-after-accepting-pulitzer/?comments=1#comments
https://theintercept.com/2016/05/16/the-intercept-is-broadening-access-to-the-snowden-archive-heres-why/?comments=1#comments
https://theintercept.com/2016/05/16/how-we-prepared-the-nsas-sensitive-internal-reports-for-release/?comments=1#comments
I would argue he may see himself as some sort of journalistic God, because by “curating” Snowden leaks and depriving them of any tractable, identifying information he is effectively not only protecting those individuals even boasting about torture and genocide having fun while making money in the business of starting abusive wars and messing with people (he apparently claims to be criticizing), but, also, making impossible for other “unethical” journalists, such as Jamie Kalven:
https://theintercept.com/2016/10/06/chicago-police-bosses-targeted-cops-who-exposed-corruption/
do their kinds of irresponsibly “absurd” journalism. Kalven on the thorough pursuit of the “what-where-when-who” of his stories would even annotate the perpetrators and role players (even drug dealers using their street names) of his report with silly, yet informative html-based textual explanatory attributes check out [Ernie Brown] and [Debra Kirby], also [informant], [Big Shorty] and [Monk Fears].
Abysmally, USG is not a signatory of international treaties against torture. The APA, after breaking apart from USG and sanctioning their charter based on international interpretation of torture, is yet to find actual psychologists to revoke their licenses. They can’t do so, nor can’t the ACLU indict NSA, CIA, FBI … agents based on “ethical” journalism and philosophical discussions. Of course, Glenn knows exactly what I am talking about. He is a lawyer.
RCL
Here and on Twitter I have repeatedly inquired of pro-interventionists in Syria, and/or those who spew horrible crap about Max Blumenthal regarding Syria, to directly address the documented factthat Russia believes it has vital interests in Syria. I have further asked them to address the fact that Russia believes, for good reason, that the U.S. is pushing for war.
No one — no one— will directly address the risks of WWIII entailed in the U.S. imposing a No Fly Zone against Russian warplanes or any other military measures that Russia would deem to threaten its interests.
What I get instead is endless litanies of fallacies: whataboutery, straw men, ad hominem, misdirection. Anything but head-on attention to the primary objection people like Max and I have, i.e., a war of us against Russia.
Pay attention to pro-interventionist people in these threads, on Twitter, and everywhere else. They will not grapple with the Russia issue. They pretend it isn’t there.
In addition to the link in the above post, below I quote from and link a New Yorker piece on Russia preparing for full-blown war. About all such points, those who advocate Western military measures to remove Assad reply with:
[crickets chirping]
DocHollywood
Here are four reasons that PNAC (neocons) had nearly zero influence on the Obama administration and even a much diminished influence during the second term of the Bush Administration. PNAC had no influence on the war in Syria (let alone the start of the war which was clearly initiated by Assad).
1. Obama had a golden opportunity to bomb Syria when he threatened military retaliation if Assad used Chemical weapons (Obama’s red line in the sand). Obama backed away bargaining with Putin to remove Assad’s stored chemical weapons. Assad continued to use chemical weapons without a response from Obama. The US could have toppled the regime with a concerted aerial bombardment.
2. Under the Obama Administration, the US restored diplomatic relations with Syria in 2010. The Bush administration cut off relations with Syria after the 2005 assassination of Rafik Hariri – the former Sunni Prime Minister of Lebanon who strongly opposed Syrian troops in Lebanon. Two Hezbollah operatives were indicted.
3. The US nuclear agreement with Iran – strongly opposed by Israel and the neocons.
4. Bush refused to give a green light to Israel to bomb the Iranian nuclear facilities in late 2008 (Guardian):
“……Israel gave serious thought this spring to launching a military strike on Iran’s nuclear sites but was told by President George W Bush that he would not support it and did not expect to revise that view for the rest of his presidency, senior European diplomatic sources have told the Guardian…..”
PNAC disbanded in 2006.
I am always interesting in articles from anyone attempting to justify an action. It shows how the author does not feel so great about it.
Wikileaks like any creation is limited by our human condition. We are human, so imperfect, so are our creations. Long ago language, writing and money were created to help humans to live in bigger groups and with less tension. Today all those creations are objects of perversion, due to what we are, imperfect.
At the beginning of his life, so was Wikileaks. A brand new creation to improve our societies, like the newspapers or Internet before. Today the safe place for whistleblowers is turning into a hackers’ dumpster. Why ? Because Like any human being Julian Assange is far from perfection, and his own sensitivity made him bitter.
Any young person should look at the past and realize how many great inventions were perverted, in order to understand that she/he is only a human being and should fear himself as much as the others.
I am an anarchist. I don’t believe that anarchy would ever exist. I believe in the utopia. I believe that everyday I should be curious about others, and critical toward any information and myself. I believe that everyday I should teach my relatives to feel confident in their own judgments and doubts as far as they come from good heart. But I don’t believe in bitterness and destructive judgments, like Julian Assange is showing now.
Wikileaks need to be less on defense, and realize that they are losing their soul. Wikileaks can be a great tool, but for that it needs to be more humble and think how it can really empower humans and not only feed their anger.
Hardcore Zionists support ISIS in Syria
When one sees a militant Zionist oppose bombing ISIS in Syria, there’s a reason for that: Israel. Many, many Israel apologists oppose attacking ISIS in Syria, and it has absolutely nothing to do with the humanitarian reasons any of them prattle about.
It’s entirely because of this: Israeli Intel Chief: We Don’t Want ISIS Defeated In Syria
Whether it’s Hillary Clinton or Zionist fanatics in comments, they want Assad ousted, and want ISIS left alone, because Israel wants both.
-Mona-
October 4 2016, 9:13 p.m.
ATTENTION READERS: I have reported Craig Summers. Please scroll past him — I and others usually ignore him for being an authoritarian, pro-torture, Republican Trump-voter who posts massive walls of drivel. Skip past him (often; unfortunately he’s crapflooding) to see the actual discussion. Especially just below is my link to Max Blumenthal’s Part II: How the White Helmets Became International Heroes While Pushing U.S. Military Intervention and Regime Change in Syria. Excerpts given.
1. Mr. Summers does not want readers to consider Blumenthal’s article, so he’s crapflooding the comments with constant new posts to stay at the top of the thread. (This is behavior which has often resulted in banning; crapflooding as that is defined and assessed here, not as determined by Mr. Summers.) Please scroll past all of his pollution. In the meantime, I am reporting him.
2. Mr. Summers is well aware that I wish to almost entirely ignore him; he’s been told so innumerable times. Especially in this thread, he persists in posting to and about me, demanding that I answer certain questions. This is an abuse of the board. I am entitled to ignore someone without his spamming the board and his constantly demanding that I answer his questions.
For these reasons I have reported him.
Dear Mr. Greenwald,
Please consider getting rid of the word “disingenuous.” It’s a weasel word for “dishonest.” If you think someone is dishonest, why not just say so, instead of trying to hide behind a word like “disingenuous”?
Respectfully,
Tim Hadley
Lubbock, Texas
Mona post some of the response by Blumenthal to criticism by Gershom Gorenberg – a liberal Zionists Jew. The article Blumenthat refers to is linked below (“The Strange Sympathy of the Far Left for Putin”; October 14, 2016) – another article which pointedly refers to the “far left”, but makes no attempt to define it. His mistake is assuming that the far left are Russian and/or Assad apologists, but while this is the case for the Russian-bots posing as radical leftists, real far left wing activists are driven by anti-Americanism (although they are most certainly apologists for dictators at times).
Gorenberg devotes about a two short paragraphs to Blumenthal and notes that Blumenthal and Jill Stein appeared in Moscow at a forum sponsored by RT on December 10th, 2015 – the long arm of the Putin government. In this case, they both do certainly appear to be Russian apologists appearing in Russia even as the Russian military was targeting Syrian civilians and hospitals in late 2015. You can bet that Stein and Blumenthal were invited by Russian authorities because the Russians had no worries that they were going to criticize the Russian government’s role in the war. That was probably a safe bet.
Gorenberg’s primary targets were mainly limited to Stein, Jeremy Corbyn, the Stop the War Coalition and to a more sympathetic criticism of Obama. About Jill Stein he writes:
“…… Until a few days ago, Stein had a statement on her website saying that the United States should end any military role in Syria, impose an arms embargo, and work “with Syria, Russia, and Iran to restore all of Syria to control by the government.” The “anti-war” candidate’s stance, in other words, was to let the war crimes continue until the Assad regime and its patrons massacre their way to victory……”
What a solution by Jill Stein, but this is par for the course. Her fundamental lack of knowledge about Middle Eastern politics is driven solely by opposition to US involvement – anywhere. Gorenberg attacks the ideology of Blumenthal limiting his criticism of Max to his portrayal of the White Helmets, his portrayal of Zionists in “Goliath” and Max’s trip to Moscow:
“………In Blumenthal’s portrayal the group [White Helmets] is the tool of nefarious American designs to overthrow the Assad regime……” my insert in brackets
What is interesting about the criticism leveled at the far left by the author is that this is a political battle within the left and liberalism. The far left is an outlier in that human rights is subsidiary to a political agenda driven by anti-Americanism. This always lays them wide open to charges of hypocrisy – and for good reason.
http://prospect.org/article/strange-sympathy-far-left-putin#.WAV4JyI2jtc.twitter via @theprospect
Readers: About 95% of the time I do not substantively reply to Craig Summers, who is an authoritarian, pro-torture, Republican Trump-voter. Multiple commenters asked that I not reply to Craig because doing so causes him to post yet more walls of drivel-text, which pollutes the board. I intend to follow that same course here.
The Max Blumenthal pieces he references: Part I: Inside the Shadowy PR Firm That’s Lobbying for Regime Change in Syria
Max Blumenthal, Part II: How the White Helmets Became International Heroes While Pushing U.S. Military Intervention and Regime Change in Syria
I highly doubt you are pro Trump,but if so,please elucidate?
Zionists aint for Trump,no matter what creepy propagandists spew.
“…….Zionists aint for Trump,no matter what creepy propagandists spew……”
I don’t believe that is true at all. I suppose if your only issue is Israel, you probably do support Hillary. I am not pro-Trump and I cannot stand HRC. I strongly doubt I will cast a vote for President in this election, but if I did, it would never be for Hillary.
Hillaryous;Your only issue is Israel.
Name prominent zionists besides possibly Sheldon Adelson,that are for Trump?
I think Adelson is just being smart.His tea leaves read Trump.
Its a funny world Craig,I believe a serial liar like you more than our humble moderator.
I saw the bubblemint twins yesterday giving a Nazi salute!
Hillaryous.
A vote for her is a vote for venal criminal anti democratic corruption.She robbed Sanders with the MSMs assistance,and now is trying to steal the general election,again,with the full throated support of alleged liberals all across America’s MSM,a collection of dereliction of 4th estate duty traitors who should be stripped of their license to spew.
Again,Trumps policies are much much better for US than hers,but the dirtbags won’t tell US.
Imagine the debt she will pay these nazi scum if they succeed?Man.
It makes you proud to be an American: ‘Sodomized’ Guantánamo captive to undergo rectal surgery
https://twitter.com/Snowden/status/788109544270471168
I saw that. One can only imagine the threats the Obama Administration delivered to Ecuador.
I won’t do a thing, however. Assange has set it up so that even if he’s assassinated, the leaks will come out. Something like a dead man’s switch.
Oops. Second “I” shout = “It.”
I hope Julian has someone backing him up. He’s certainly smart enough to have built some redundancy into the system short of a dead man switch. That just sounds so *final. :-s
Just below, I post about The American Prospect’s rancid article on Max Blumenthal, and Max’s reply. The piece was a total misrepresentation of Max’s incredible two-part series on the forces in Syria advocating for Western intervention.
Part I:Inside the Shadowy PR Firm That’s Lobbying for Regime Change in Syria
Max Blumenthal, Part II: How the White Helmets Became International Heroes While Pushing U.S. Military Intervention and Regime Change in Syria
Thanks Mona. This stuff has been a nightmare to sort through. :-s
It’s really, really awful. For quite some time I was non-aligned. I’m sure you noticed on Twitter that Charles Davis has been making outrageous accusations against people like Max and Rania for many months now — I finally had to unfollow him.
The more exposure I had to the pro-interventionists on the left, the more all I saw was disgusting behavior no different than the Israel apologists’ antics. Utterly refusing to address the actual points made, especially about what Russia would do in response to a NFZ. (Like it or not, Russia believes it has vital interests in Syria.)
Instead, it’s a lot of fallacies, name-calling and other vile crap.
That tells me if they could counter the point that a NFZ flirts with WWIII, they would. They can’t, so they resort to all that nastiness. That made my mind up for me.
DocHollywood
“…….That’s a very strange accusation to make after posting support for ISIS and torture…….”
First of all, I did NOT post in support for ISIS – and I never have. They are classic Islamic terrorists. Second of all, the policy of the US in Syria has been regime change which makes a lot of sense because there can never be peace in Syria while Assad remains in power. So a US policy that bombs ISIS – the best fighting force in opposition to the Assad regime – directly contradicts a US policy of regime change. Clearly, Obama is clueless about what to do in Syria. I support ousting Assad for geopolitical and humanitarian reasons – so bombing ISIS directly in Syria makes no sense. Third of all, the Assad regime along with Russia commit more war crime violations by far than ISIS. I have posted the war crimes committed by the Assad regime. Russia has repeatedly targeted hospitals, clinics and civilians in violation of humanitarian law over the last year – and it continues. As reported in al-Jazeera just this morning,
“………Air strikes killed at least 12 civilians in Syria’s Aleppo on Monday, a monitor said, bringing to 45 the number killed in 24 hours of bombardment in the battleground city…….The UK-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said five children were among the dead on Monday in the rebel-held district of Marjeh in east Aleppo……Dozens more people were wounded or still trapped under rubble…….Of the 45 civilians killed, the highest number of dead were in Qaterji, where Russian raids claimed 17 lives overnight, said Observatory head Rami Abdel Rahman……Fourteen members of the same family were killed in one air strike, according to the White Helmet Civil Defence rescuers…….”
There is no doubt that the radical left are a bunch of hypocrites, but Nick Cohen sums this up very nicely:
“…….The far left’s ideology is not “leftwing” in any sense that a socialist from the 19th or 20th centuries would have understood. It is simply opposition to the west whatever the west does. Occidentalism explains the appearances of Labour’s leaders on Iran’s propaganda channels , the endorsements of Russian imperialism, and the silence that greets the Syrian massacres…….”
And Nick means the bombing by Russia.
Max Blumenthal expertly smacks down pro-interventionists who grossly smeared him
Some leftists lately find themselves talking like Israel apologists, spewing whataboutery and grossly mischaracterizing the anti-interventionist objections. I had been agnostic on the matter until recently, but the pro-interventionists’ tactics convinced me Blumenthal et al. are right. Otherwise, they’d directly meet the actual arguments, which they consistently avoid, evade and straw man.
And oh my, Gershom Gorenberg was true to interventionist form recently in The American Prospect. Max appropriately let’s him have it in a letter:
Yes, that’s just how they operate. Do read the whole thing.
That’s a very strange accusation to make after posting support for ISIS and torture.
Josette writes:
“………All smoke, no fire — a pitiful attempt by Wikileaks to influence the election’s outcome, NOT to reveal the truth. I don’t know how you can defend an organization that is increasingly renegade and partisan. Wikileaks is no longer comparable to Snowden; he is a patriot, whereas Assange is leaking nothing that might hurt the Republicans, just the Democrats, which reveals his agenda. He doesn’t care about truth, he just wants to undermine Clinton and the American electoral process……”
Josette has a point. WikiLeaks is purposely – for personal as well as political reasons – interfering in the democratic process to influence the election. Mona’s response (“What a pile of silly crap”) is meant to belittle Josette’s post like she shouldn’t be taken seriously. This is a common tactic used by the Walmart Greeter’s Club at the Intercept. Intercept staff writer and former New York Times journalist, Robert Mackey, might take issue with Mona (“What Julian Assange’s War on Hillary Clinton Says About WikiLeaks”):
“…….IN RECENT MONTHS, the WikiLeaks Twitter feed has started to look more like the stream of an opposition research firm working mainly to undermine Hillary Clinton than the updates of a non-partisan platform for whistleblowers…….” – Robert Mackey
Greenwald mentions the controversy, but fails to address the position of power used by WikiLeaks to obtain a political result. It seems to an abuse of power (IMHO). Certainly this will do nothing to build trust between journalists and the public.
By the way, Snowden is no patriot, Josette.
Readers: About 95% of the time I do not substantively reply to Craig Summers, who is an authoritarian, pro-torture, Republican Trump-voter. Multiple commenters asked that I not reply to Craig because doing so causes him to post yet more walls of drivel-text, which pollutes the board. I intend to follow that same course here.
Mona (to Pedinska)
“………..You are, of course, can and should continue to make your own judgments on the matter. But I have found that drastically cutting down my attention to Craig by over 90% significantly improves the conversation. Replying to him causes him to spew yet more dense walls of repetitive text……”
When I search your name on the Murtaza Hussain thread (“SYRIA’S WHITE HELMETS RISK EVERYTHING TO SAVE THE VICTIMS OF AIRSTRIKES”), it comes up 392 times. Very early in the thread you wrote:
“…….Let me preface this by saying I’m agnostic on what to do vis-a-vis Syria because I know too little, and what I do know is confusing……”
Just think if you would have actually known something how many times you would have posted! In addition, Blumenthal’s name appears 119 times – many of them repetitive links posted by you to his article which proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the White Helmets prefer not to be bombed while saving thousands of innocent Syrian lives.
No one posts more repetitive drivel than you Mona. No one comes close.
Thanks.
Zionist toady, Hillary Clinton, endorses a “Potemkin” peace process
She’s wholly owned by the Israel Lobby, the gross extent made clear by the leaked emails. This is probably the most repulsive:
Aside from the fact it’s been a “Potemkin process” for at least two decades, better for whom? For Israel. For the United States.
Hillary Clinton does not give a shit that it’s ongoing horror for the Palestinians.
When you encounter whataboutery from assholes on the subject of Syria, whatabout them with Yemen
An increasingly common ploy, developed by sophisticated PR firms for Syrian advocates of a No Fly Zone, is to taunt people as hypocritical for supporting Palestinians but purportedly not caring about the dying children of Syria. Give them whataboutery right back.
It’s a repugnant strategy that wholly ignores that no one advocates a military intervention to assist the Palestinians, but that even if we undertook it, that would not risk WWIII.
So, next time one of these disingenuous assholes flings that whataboutery around, ask them why they don’t care about the dying children of Yemen.After all, our dear friends, the Saudis, are are causing it and are using some of our weapons to do it.
The death and suffering we help bring about in Yemen is appalling. So if whataboutery is the new order of the day, what about Yemen? THAT we could likely do something about without risking WWIII.
Superb idea: A new ad campaign in college papers exposes vile, racist Israeli officials in their own words
I’d long been wondering why the endless hateful spewings from prominent Israelis were not being deployed in aggressive ad campaigns. (Presumably it’s been a funding problem.)
That’s now being taken care of.
It doesn’t matter what nasty words they can counter with from this or that Palestinian; that kind of stuff is already well known. The problem has been making clear the truly disgusting nature of Zionists and their statements over the years.
Moreover, Israel is the oppressor. It’s more morally understandable when the oppressed speak awfully about the oppressor.
Mr. Greenwald, I’ve read the emails myself, and they are politics as usual in America — nowhere near the level of crazed, deliberate harm caused by Clinton’s opponent. All smoke, no fire — a pitiful attempt by Wikileaks to influence the election’s outcome, NOT to reveal the truth. I don’t know how you can defend an organization that is increasingly renegade and partisan. Wikileaks is no longer comparable to Snowden; he is a patriot, whereas Assange is leaking nothing that might hurt the Republicans, just the Democrats, which reveals his agenda. He doesn’t care about truth, he just wants to undermine Clinton and the American electoral process. Why you are enabling him in that is beyond me, but I can smell B.S. a mile away, and this story reeks of it. You have your mind made up, and this story is your way of justifying the conclusion you need to reach: Wikileaks good, Clinton bad, and shame on America for not seeing that. The reason we don’t see it is because Wikileaks and its reporting are biased, and your own reporting also reflects bias. I am sorry to say that I have lost my prior respect for you, based on your brave work with Snowden. I can no longer take your opinions seriously.
What a pile of silly crap.
1. Wikileaks can only publish materials leaked to it. If no one leaked Trump or RNC stuff, rather obviously Wikileaks cannot release it.
2. Many, including me, found a great deal of interest in the Clinton emails. And this is why< people like you are so pissed off at Wikileaks for publishing them — if they were the ho-hum stuff you would have us believe, you wouldn't have posted what you have.
3. Among the things I learned from the emails, is that Hillary Clinton tells banksters that people to her left (like Bernie Sanders or me) are “bucket of losers” with “low social capital.”
We won’t forget what that vile woman is. If we have anything to say about it, we “losers” will ensure she is a 1-termer.
Given that her support is almost entirely the over-40s, and further given that the 65+ will have more of themselves dead in 4 years — with another four years of youngs adding to the leftist millennials — we can probably do it.
After all, a 74-year-old social democrat from Vermont won 22 primaries this year with the entire DNC united against him. Hillary’s days are numbered, as are those of all the goddam neoliberals.
And only your mommy takes your opinions seriously.
Interesting article Mona shared below, this part caught my attention:
He’s an American complaining that he’s the only American voice on a Russian news show.
I can’t remember the last time I saw a Russian on a panel in an American show, giving a Russian opinion on US Russian issues.
To compare and contrast, Al Jazeera routinely has Russians speaking about Russia, Chinese about China etc.
But in American media….those sort of people aren’t allowed to be heard. You know, people with direct knowledge of what they are talking about. So you get instead, weirdness like CNN’s Barbara Starr, giving you the US government version, of what Russia is doing.
And then you wonder why America starts so many wars.
The most horrifying thing I took from that article is the further evidence that Russians are truly preparing for all-out war with the United States. They reasonably believe the U.S. wants that. Especially Hillary Clinton want that. (See this Foreign Policy article: The Kremlin Really Believes That Hillary Wants to Start a War With Russia.)
This is the paragraph in that New Yorker piece that made me ill:
There is virtually nothing military we can do to end the carnage in Syria. Nothing. Agitating for a No Fly Zone is to agitate for WWIII.
A full-blown war with Russia would make the current death toll — of children and everyone else — seem like a minor skirmish. The scale of death and destruction is intolerable to contemplate.
But some people are deploying the heartbreaking carnage in Syria — about which we can do almost nothing — precisely to bring the GREATER carnage about. They are insane, evil, or both.
and …
I see.
The confidence the American public has in Hillary and Congress, DOJ, NSA, etc.
Let’s blame Putin!
Does Mona realize that the war hysteria propaganda from the zionists about Russia preparing for war is made to make Americans fearful of Russia?
I imagine Russia is quite ready for any war,as we have been rabid for years regarding them,and they are quite rational,unlike the ziomonsters.
It’s sad but many Americans really are buying into the “Russia is destroying American media and democracy” thing.
After “citizens-united”, gerrymandering (is that even mentioned on American news?)…”caging”, voter purges….
After all that, Americans are quick to believe Clinton when she blames Wikileaks and Putin (they are inseperable now in American media, Wikileaks and Putin)
After a hundred examples of American “info-tainment” running America’s consent of the governed into oblivion…
After Amy Goodman is charged with “rioting”, After Obama goes after a record number of leakers with espionage charges….
…Clinton says it’s Putin’s fault. And there’s “strong evidence” for this…..somewhere…maybe next to a pile of military grade aluminium tubes.
It’s 17 October, the anniversary of the Paris “Algerian Massacre” by the way. The same French police chief who deported hundreds of Jews to Nazi death camps, Maurice Papon, kept his job after the war, only to kill dozens of Muslims.
Something to think about next time your local demagogue wants to emulate France’s way of dealing with minorities by suppressing memories of the past, and blaming their troubles on swim-wear.
Here’s a fun bit, from a time when being compared to Cosby, was beginning to be a very bad thing. But the lesson Trump got out of the Cosby story was that sexual abusers should get better PR advice.
I understand that Clinton is leading in the polls. Something tells me though that saying things like this are only going to depress the attendance at the polls.
Electing Clinton is a “political revolution? Seriously? The US is “going to” slide into oligarchy? (future tense?)
Doesn’t sound a bit like Clinton’s Goldman Sachs speeches.
“…going to slide into oligarchy.” We already have!
It’s funny how “democracy” keeps popping up as a solution to capitalism. I guess this guy has blown his chance to be in Clinton’s cabinet.
Richard Wolff – “The basic decisions, what to produce, how to produce, where to produce and what to do with the profuts are made by a tiny group of people…what they don’t do is make the decisions that are good for the rest of us, and for that to happen you have to have democracy”
Gee, I wonder why Amy Goodman is facing “riot” charges????
Henry Giroux – “You make a terrible mistake, when you equate capitalism with democracy”
“memory is the enemy of totalitarianism”
The American voters are tired of wars and war-like interventions (principally in the Middle East) and inconveniently were desirous, in their majority, of a candidate who shared their antipathy for such costly (for us), calamitous (for them), and repercussive (for both) actions. In other words, they were most loath to elect an establishment-type Republican (the example of Bush II still being so repellent) and almost equally loath to elect a similarly establishmentarian Democrat (Obama’s elitist economic-priorities and continued interventionism abroad being an educative disappointment); some looked, perhaps more wisely, for a solution in socialist senator Bernie Sanders, others, certainly more foolishly, in the mediatically-magnetized magnate Donald Trump. In any case, it appears the media, along with the DNC, had pre-decided that Sanders, by the solipsistic reality of not being Hillary Clinton, would not be the Democratic presidential candidate. This very same media was sought, and assumed to offer no resistance, by the Democratic party to make and elevate a Republican “Pied Piper” candidate, who would lead the Republican presidential race off a cliff into populist extremity (besmirching by association the stance against imperial interventionism along the way) and definite presidential unelectability. The result is that the candidate considered best able by the security and defense (i.e. imperial-defense) establishment to continue and extend America’s defense of its global imperial centrality will be elected president having already been pre-selected by the aforesaid elite and its media servitors. Leaving the anticipatory question: Was there any democracy at all? Or had the ‘pre-deciding’ risen to the level of material and technical pre-ordaining of electoral results?
Guess you saw the report Assange’s internet has been cut. Glenn best take steps.
Once again, see below Gator, for old time’s sake. ;-}
Have to spend the day out-of-town helping my elderly mother so am not likely to get back until much later today.
Pedinska — I regret my use of the word “unhinged” and apologize for same. I’ve no doubt you are far more hinged than I will ever be.
Society (for good reason) despises freedom, so our worst terms of disparagement are ‘unhinged’, ‘untethered’, ‘loose cannon’ etc. You shouldn’t throw those terms around lightly.
As a ‘hinged’ person, I like to follow a predictable path, always pivoting about the same axis.
I dunno, Gator. Pretty sure I’m just swingin’ by the barest of threads at times, but I do the best that I can. :-)
Regardless of the political upheaval in question, the extreme left blames the US. This has been the case in Syria, Ukraine and even Brazil (Greenwald). The focus is always on the US while ignoring the sometimes brutal behavior of state-actors like Russia and the Syrian regime. Indeed, how many times has the idea been promoted that the US was behind the recent democratically-ousted Russian puppet in Ukraine? However, nothing exposes the anti-American/anti-western agenda of the radical left quite like the conflict in Syria. Nick Cohen at the Guardian summed it up about as well as anyone I’ve read (“Who, on the left or right, will stand up for Syria?”):
“…….The far left’s ideology is not “leftwing” in any sense that a socialist from the 19th or 20th centuries would have understood. It is simply opposition to the west whatever the west does. Occidentalism explains the appearances of Labour’s leaders on Iran’s propaganda channels , the endorsements of Russian imperialism, and the silence that greets the Syrian massacres…….”
But the lunacy of the radical left sometimes goes even further. They use conspiracy theories to explain away political fallout from the actions of dictators like Assad of Syria. Although few commentators have raised this possibility, DocHollywood attempted to blame PNAC for Assad initiating a war against his own people. Few commentators have discredited their political views anymore thoroughly than by raising this accusation:
“…….“. . .The war [of aggression, the “supreme international war crime” in the words of the Nuremberg Tribunals,] was initiated by the A[merican] regime [as described years ago in the PNAC and subsequently confirmed by Former Supreme Military Commander of NATO , General Wesley Clark, and Former Director of the US Defense Intelligence Agency, General Michael Flynn]. Bringing up PNAC simply [confirms the supreme international war crime had been planned all along, but to a dishonest psychopath that fact] doesn’t mean anything. . .”……”
Incredibly, Doug Salzmann attempted to blame the US for war crimes committed by Russia and the Assad regime in Syria:
“…….what would they have to do with — let alone justify — Russian and Syrian bombing of civilians and hospitals?……” – GK James
“……..When you start wars, that act (starting wars) has everything to do with the horrors of war that follow. That’s why “[p]lanning, preparation, initiation or waging of a war of aggression or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements or assurances” is a crime (a “crime against peace”) under international law. See Principle VI of the Nuremberg Principles…….” – Doug Salzmann
It’s laughable to suggest that the US could be brought before the ICC and charged with targeting hospitals and civilians in Aleppo bombed by Russia and the Assad regime – but obsessive anti-Americanism leads to absurd claims. The anti-war, UK-based Stop the War Coalition refused to protest at the Russian embassy against the brutal Russian bombing in Aleppo:
“……..“We do not want to contribute to the jingoism and hysteria that is being whipped up against Russia, because that hysteria is being used to try and justify an escalation of the British war effort,” he told BBC Radio 4’s Today programme……..He said that if British politicians want to organise a protest they “know where the Russian embassy is”. He added that Stop the War would not take in any such rally……..“The reason for that is our focus is on what our government is doing,” he told Montague. “We can make a difference to what Britain does – we can make a difference to what our allies do to a certain extent – but if we have a protest outside the Russian embassy it wouldn’t make a blind bit of difference to what Putin does because we are in Britain and we are in the West.”…..”
The Stop the War Coalition is really not anti-war, but anti-west. There are plenty of other ridiculous claims like Assad was democratically elected in 2014. The hypocrisy of the radical left is obvious, but sometimes this – it’s the US’s fault at all costs obsession – leads to some of the more ridiculous claims and actions I have seen.
The timing of the leaks is ultimately counter-productive. If let’s say they had been leaked during the Democratic Primary, THEN they would have served a good purpose. Now it’s just too little too late. On a side note, they don’t really tell us anything we didn’t already suspect.
The sad thing about Glenn’s points is that they have to be made at all. It would seem self-evident that important information should be reported. And that the motivation of the leaker doesn’t come into it – as regards the reporting.
BUT: the motivation of the leaker IS something that may and should be reported, independently of the leaks themselves. When it came to Trump’s tax returns, such motivation seemed obvious. To begin with, the source was domestic, and undoubtedly someone who thought that Trump should publish his tax returns like all other candidates do. But when it comes to the Podesta emails, it’s not clear at all. Someone who believes in transparency in government? A foreign government – as the Clinton team claims – that seeks to influence the election (and which therefore may have leaked selectively)?
Wikileaks seeks transparency and I’ve always supported them over that. But I do think it’s time for them to be transparent themselves. They don’t have to divulge the identity of the leaker. Just say what his/her motivation was, which they surely know.
No.
1. They likely do not know. they use mechanisms such a SecureDrop to ensure anonymity.
2. Even if they do know, they should not speculate about motive. Among other things, no journalist should play 20 Questions about the source. A journalist properly says nothing about the source, even if they know something.
3. The source’s motives have nothing to do with transparency for Wikileaks.
The collective posts lightly [edited] for accuracy:
“[I will make more] ludicrous and idiotic statements (and there have been lots):
[My deflections from the direct] statements made [by US military leaders describing US plans for] regime change initiated [years before the Syrian protests began] only serves to make [me] look like a complete fool. [My] attempt to [conflate described with blame] again makes [me] look like an idiot. [I am] nothing more than a [dishonest twit.
All of my dumb and dishonest claims still look dumb and dishonest] compared with [any of my other dumb and dishonest claims. Repeating my dumb and dishonest claim that] the war was initiated by Assad [ – when the statements by General (retired) Wesley Clark, former Supreme Allied Commander of NATO and former Director of the Defense Intelligence Agency, General (retired) Michael Flynn reveal the US was planning the war for many years – doesn’t make it less dumb and dishonest.
So I’ll try arguing yet another dumb and dishonest straw man. This time, I’ll pretend there’s a claim connecting the Syrian protests and the PNAC and/or Obama and then pretend to refute it:] Syrians were protesting to demand political reform and apparently to replace Assad the murderer. That has nothing to do with PNAC (neocons) or even regime change by the Obama Administration[, or anything claimed before. See? That really was just another one of my dumb and dishonest straw men.
This] has everything to do with another ruthless [US plan for] holding on to [control over Mideast resources, even] by supporting murder[ous terrorist groups. The US has a strong interest in] not reforming the political system [of the many brutal dictatorships it has sponsored, imposed, and financed. But regimes that don’t follow US dictates, brutal or not, can be targeted by the US just as described by Clark and Flynn, the two high-ranking military men who’s words have eviscerated my dumb and dishonest claim.
[The evidence against my dumb and dishonest claim leads me to randomly ramble:] Neoconservatives were certainly influential in the first term of the Bush administration. . .the invasion of Iraq. . .bombing Iran at the request of Israel). . .Dick Cheney. . .
[At long last, I come around to attempting to address the topic:]
This is just another a[rticle that refutes my already refuted dumb and dishonest claim that Assad initiated the war. It reports that the US was taking actions against Syria that supported terrorist groups – that is, engaged in acts of war – at least 4 years before the protests in Syria. That refutes my dumb and dishonest claim about Assad initiating the war at the time of the protests 4 years after the US had already initiated its plans for war with Syria.
The report in The New Yorker that the US was “bolstering” terrorists in “clandestine operations” against Syria long before the protests is supported by statements from the Former Director of the Defense Intelligence Agency that the US had made a “willful decision” to support radical jihadists against the Syrian regime before the anti-government protests. His statement, like the article in The New Yorker, refutes my dumb and dishonest claim that Assad initiated the war that the US had already initiated.
It’s the same with what the Former Supreme Allied Commander of NATO said: that the US was planning the war that it initiated against Syria years before the protests refutes my dumb and dishonest claim that Assad initiated the war.
. . .Just so there are no illusions about the brutal tactics used by the Assad regime to retain power [There aren’t; that’s yet another of my dumb and dishonest straw men.
There are no illusions that this has anything to do with my dumb and dishonest claims about Assad initiating the war either].
. . .Notice that the Syrian regime was responsible for the “vast majority of violations” [and notice that this has nothing to do with my dumb and dishonest claims about Assad initiating the war].
. . .Neither [ISIS nor
Al QaedaAl Nusra] are US proxies as you stated [though t]he US did distribute weapons to [them and provide for lots of money to flow to them through Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and other states, as well as arms through Turkey – it goes along with what General Flynn and The New Yorker told us in their statements and article that refuted my dumb and dishonest claim about Assad initiating the war. And it is with this support that they are fighting the war against Syria for the US. You know: like proxies.”Russia believes the U.S., especially Hillary Clinton, want war
An American reporter based in Moscow who writes for The New Yorker, my emphasis:
When I was about 13 I asked my historian father how WWI began. He launched into this baffling stuff about an Archduke getting shot and how a bunch of folks got pissed off, one thing led to another, and soon carnage reigned in Europe. Nearly all the young men of a generation hideously died or were horribly maimed.
These days I better understand how humans allow and commit such obscene follies.
DocHollywood
Just so there are no illusions about the brutal tactics used by the Assad regime to retain power, they easily exceed al-Qaeda affiliates and ISIS in war crimes. Additionally, the US is bombing ISIS and al-Qaeda. Neither are US proxies as you stated. The US did distribute weapons to rebels and jihadists in the beginning for geopolitical purposes which coincided with humanitarian concerns as well. Assad has committed and continues to commit (along with Russia) numerous war crimes. The Amnesty International Summary Report from 2013 indicates that after 2-1/2 years of war, Assad was responsible for the majority of the war crimes:
“……..The internal armed conflict between government forces and the opposition, composed of the Free Syrian Army (FSA) and other armed opposition groups, was marked by gross human rights abuses, war crimes and crimes against humanity. Government forces, which were responsible for the vast majority of violations, carried out indiscriminate attacks on residential areas using aircraft, artillery shells, mortars, incendiary weapons and cluster bombs. Together with their support militias, they arrested thousands of people, including children, subjecting many to enforced disappearance. Torture and other ill-treatment of detainees were commonplace; at least 550 were reported to have died in custody, many after torture. Others were extrajudicially executed. Security forces’ snipers continued to shoot peaceful anti-government demonstrators and people attending public funerals. Health workers treating the wounded were targeted………”
Notice that the Syrian regime was responsible for the “vast majority of violations” in 2013 meant to quell the opposition as quickly as possible. Human Rights watch released a report on detainees in the Syrian regime prisons and jails. Pictures collected by defectors from the Assad regime released them to Human Rights Watch:
“……..The largest category of photographs, 28,707 images, are photographs of people Human Rights Watch understands to have died in government custody (with estimates as high as 60,000)…….. Moreover, the photographs are not a random sampling, but represent the photographs Caesar had access to and copied when he felt he could do so with relative safety. Therefore, the number of bodies from detention facilities that appear in the Caesar photographs represent only a part of those who died in detention in Damascus, or even in these particular facilities…… They found evidence of violent blunt force trauma, suffocation, starvation, and in one case due to a gunshot wound to the head. In some of the photographs Human Rights Watch and Physicians for Human Rights reviewed, detainees’ bodies showed large open head wounds, gunshot wounds, or dried blood coming from bodily cavities. Many of the photographs show emaciated bodies as well as marks of torture…….”
The death of tens of thousands of detainees places the Assad regime in a special category of murderers. I have not even got to the brutal bombing campaign carried out by the Russians and the Assad regime in Aleppo in progress. Both have targeted medical facilities, clinics and even and aid convoy. Civilians are fodder for the regime and Russia – a campaign of terror if ever one existed.
https://www.hrw.org/report/2015/12/16/if-dead-could-speak/mass-deaths-and-torture-syrias-detention-facilities
@CraigSummers –
I once argued here that you exhibited at least some progressive tendencies in what you espouse. That was wishful thinking.
You’ll likely say that it’s extreme anti-American leftist tendencies due to a preexisting condition or that have since been acquired here.
I’ll ascribe it to being human.
The summer of 2014 I began to really internalize that he’s not our pet gadfly, he’s not sort of cute, he’s not a respectable voice of dissent — he’s genuinely repugnant and should be treated accordingly. At that time it was his statements as Israel was bombing Gazans, killing hundreds of their children and destroying vast swaths of neighborhoods, medical facilities and infrastructure. Pictures of the dead and the destruction were coming fast on Twitter.
I became psychically ill, and his reaction was so depraved I had to get offline for a bit, in part for fear of what I might say to him. Now, the world is poised on WWIII with many in the U.S. saber-rattling at Russia, a country that is acting as if it believes we want war. (And Hillary does want at least to go to the brink.) This is truly terrifying, he is spewing all the indicted propaganda about Russia to make that unthinkable event seem more “necessary.”
Everyone should ignore him, and I hope you and many will go that route. He is truly depraved and should not be treated as if one is engaging in respectable discussion with a respected individual.
Mona during Operation Protective Edge:
“…….When they kill the child, what they’ve done to the parent is worse than killing them…….”
“…….Truth, and wounded children, reported movingly by CNN.
http://edition.cnn.com/video/standard.html?/video/world/2014/07/19/dnt-wedeman-death-comes-early-in-gaza.cnn&video_referrer=…..”
“…….Israel is blowing the heads off of babies and targeting ambulances. Israel is evil…….”
“…….Five ambulances directly hit by IDF tanks and F-16s……”
“…….This graphic picture shows the unspeakable mutilation of a dead girl child, held by her enraged father…….I don’t know what to do?…..”
“…….I’m in tears, and I didn’t see that picture correctly. It’s, I believe, a policeman holding the girl……”
“……The IDF is fucking killing Gazan children…..”
Mona on the hospitals, civilians and children currently being bombed in Aleppo by the Russian and Syrian regimes:
“…….Max Blumenthal’s Part I: How the White Helmets Became International Heroes While Pushing U.S. Military Intervention and Regime Change in Syria……”
Heartfelt.
Block-quotes are next?
UK lawmakers push to outlaw criticism of Zionism
Once this rancid nightmare of an election is over, I expect to see Glenn back to covering the global attacks on free speech driven by fear of BDS. (Granting the sickening events and statements the HRC Administration will no doubt occupy him with.)
@-Mona-
Source, please.
huh?
Hillary Clinton really does want to go to war with Russia. This sociopathic freak actually has no reticence about a brinksmanship that could cause WWIII. Much evidence has accrued in support of this horrifying fact. Today another piece was added to the pile.
Her consigliere, Neera Tanden tweeted:
Tanden doesn’t tweet such sentiments unless she is supposed to.
I cannot vote for her. Trump is unthinkable. The end is near. /doomsday prophet
DocHollywood
You made one of the more ludicrous and idiotic statements that I have witnessed for even the extreme anti-American left (and there have been lots):
“…….“. . .The war [of aggression, the “supreme international war crime” in the words of the Nuremberg Tribunals,] was initiated by the A[merican] regime [as described years ago in the PNAC and subsequently confirmed by Former Supreme Military Commander of NATO , General Wesley Clark, and Former Director of the US Defense Intelligence Agency, General Michael Flynn]. Bringing up PNAC simply [confirms the supreme international war crime had been planned all along, but to a dishonest psychopath that fact] doesn’t mean anything. . .”……”
Trying to connect statements made 10 days after 911 (2001) to regime change for a war initiated by Assad only serves to make you look like a complete fool. Your attempt to blame the initiation of the war in Syria (2011) on PNAC – an American think tank located in Washington DC which was basically dissolved in 2006 – again makes you look like an idiot. You are promoting nothing more than a cheap conspiracy theory even more ridiculous than the Mossad was behind 911. This makes the Kennedy assassination conspiracies look air tight.
The war was initiated by Assad who cracked down on political protests connected with the Arab Spring (as reported by Amnesty International in their 2012 report – below). Protesters were demonstrating peacefully for political rights. The protests in no way were connected to the US or PNAC. The 2012 Amnesty Summary Report details the crack-down by Assad (2012):
“……….Government forces used lethal and other excessive force against peaceful protesters who took to the streets in unprecedented numbers to demand political reform and the fall of the regime. The pattern and scale of state abuses may have constituted crimes against humanity. More than 4,300 people reportedly died during or in connection with the protests and during funerals of demonstrators, most apparently shot by members of the security forces, including snipers. Tanks were used in military operations in civilian residential areas.………thousands of people were detained in connection with the protests, with many held incommunicado and tortured. At least 200 detainees reportedly died in custody in suspicious circumstances; many appeared to have been tortured……..”
Syrians were protesting to demand political reform and apparently to replace Assad the murderer. That has nothing to do with PNAC (neocons) or even regime change by the Obama Administration. It has everything to do with another ruthless Middle East dictator holding on to power and murdering protesters – not reforming the political system as he promised. Over 4000 protesters were murdered in 2012 in a military crack-down.
Neoconservatives were certainly influential in the first term of the Bush administration (specifically for the invasion of Iraq), but their influence waned in the second Bush term (as Bush would not even joint venture bombing Iran at the request of Israel). The neoconservative nightmare, Dick Cheney, couldn’t pull that off (if he even supported bombing Iran).
“…….“To undermine Iran, which is predominantly Shiite, the Bush Administration has decided, in effect, to reconfigure its priorities in the Middle East. In Lebanon, the Administration has coöperated with Saudi Arabia’s government, which is Sunni, in clandestine operations that are intended to weaken Hezbollah, the Shiite organization that is backed by Iran. The U.S. has also taken part in clandestine operations aimed at Iran and its ally Syria. A by-product of these activities has been the bolstering of Sunni extremist groups that espouse a militant vision of Islam and are hostile to America and sympathetic to Al Qaeda.”…..”
This is just another assertion made by you which is easy tor refute. After the Syrian government was suspected in participating in the assassination of the former Prime Minister of Lebanon (Rafik Hariri), Bush pulled the UN Ambassador from Syria (2005). Two operatives from Hezbollah were ultimately implicated, but they surely would not have assassinated Hariri without authorization from Nasrallah and Assad. After Obama was elected, he reinstated the Ambassador in 2010 reinstating diplomatic relations with Assad.
“…….President Bashar al-Assad met William Burns, the US under-secretary of state, in Damascus, where Burns said they enjoyed candid talks. “I have no illusions about the challenges. But my meeting with President Assad made me hopeful that we can make progress together in the interest of both of our countries,” Burns said……”
The post lightly [edited] for accuracy:
“You are 100% right. What you have posted so far means absolutely nothing [to a dishonest psychopath who invents and argues against his own] fucking idiot[ic straw man like] “the war in Syria was INITIATED by PNAC.”
[That claim is my invention, but that’s what I do. I’m willing to make a fool of myself pretending that the war of aggression against Syria – the supreme international war crime – wasn’t planned by the US years before the anti-government protests in Syria:
I’m so dishonest that I am willing to pretend this interview didn’t take place in which Former director of the Defense Intelligence Agency Michael Flynn makes it clear to Mehdi Hasan that US support of radical jihadists (that would emerge as ISIL and Al Nusra) against the Syrian regime was “a willful decision” made before the anti-government protests:
There’s just no end to how much evidence I will ignore to deny the US has been supporting terrorist groups for years as it pursues the “regime change” described by the PNAC:
I’ve seen it all before. I’ve ignored it all before. I’ll ignore it all again.] I will be waiting [for my meds,] Doc. Good luck.”
Will you be prescribing Ritalin, Doc?
At this point, the dosage needed is pretty high. ;)
. . .especially when the very best outcome one can hope for is assisted suicide.
Always entertaining!
I erred (once again) and tried to have a rational debate with craigsummers. I should have known better – the backfire effect.
http://bigthink.com/think-tank/the-backfire-effect-why-facts-dont-win-arguments
Thanks JayZ
Good link, by the way: there’s some good general advice.
But as you have discovered, it’s hard to reframe a debate as a partnership if what you’re hoping to rationally debate has the mind and integrity of a lizard.
Mona (to Pedinska)
“………..You are, of course, can and should continue to make your own judgments on the matter. But I have found that drastically cutting down my attention to Craig by over 90% significantly improves the conversation. Replying to him causes him to spew yet more dense walls of repetitive text……”
When I search your name on the Murtaza Hussain thread (“SYRIA’S WHITE HELMETS RISK EVERYTHING TO SAVE THE VICTIMS OF AIRSTRIKES”), it comes up 392 times. Very early in the thread you wrote:
“…….Let me preface this by saying I’m agnostic on what to do vis-a-vis Syria because I know too little, and what I do know is confusing……”
Just think if you would have actually known something how many times you would have posted! In addition, Blumenthal’s name appears 119 times – many of them repetitive links posted by you to his article which proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the White Helmets prefer not to be bombed while saving thousands of innocent Syrian lives.
No one posts more repetitive drivel than you Mona. No one comes close.
Thanks.
Readers: About 95% of the time I do not substantively reply to Craig Summers, who is an authoritarian, pro-torture, Republican Trump-voter. Multiple commenters asked that I not reply to Craig because doing so causes him to post yet more walls of drivel-text, which pollutes the board. I intend to follow that same course here.
Glenn was on CNNthis morning with Brian Stelter discussing Wikileaks, the hacks, the Clinton and Trump campaigns, & etc.
Gator, I responded to you below.
Indian summer is in full swing today and I have things to do to take advantage of it in all its wonderful glory so I likely won’t get back here til much later, if at all. Wishing everyone a fantastic fall day filled with peace and a bit of nourishment for the soul.
Your response to me was wholly unsatisfying. Asking simple, polite questions concerning what people mean by the words they use is NOT a “gotcha game,” and only a stupid person (which you obviously are not) or someone slightly unhinged by election fever would so interpret it.
You assumed, based on nothing whatsoever, that I had some secret nefarious agenda in asking you, politely, how you thought the major party nominees would be “removed” as you had explicitly advocated. Although we reptiles have pretty thick skin, to have my good faith impugned by you, specifically, was disappointing. But such are the perils, I suppose, of imagining that one somehow “knows” anonymous people on the internet.
You shouldn’t have asked her.
These are desperate times. If some people exasperatedly speak of desperate measures, this is understandable. And while I am not saying Pedinska specifically was endorsing anything illegal or violent, no one can or should in public make it clear if they do advocate that. Men in black tend to show up at one’s door when that happens.
For myself, and with neither the intention nor the means to effect such a result, I would not weep if both candidates were, shall we say, “taken out.” (Tho I already weep for my country that such thoughts are almost certainly common.)
You’ve got to be kidding, Mona. I had no idea what if anything Pedinska was endorsing, but her thoughts generally interest me, so I asked her.
Pedinska chose to say something in an open public forum. Of course I can ask her politely what she meant by it. So could anyone else, as you know and as she surely knew when she posted her comment. And, as you and she both also know, she was under no obligation to respond to my query in any way whatsoever.
Your implication that I was somehow endangering her by simply inquiring about the meaning of her public writings, in a forum where participants routinely make such inquiries of other participants, is laughably preposterous.
That did not happen. I meant exactly what I said: That you should not have asked her. Not that there was anything dangerous in doing so.
“you should not have asked her”
Why? You just acknowledged that it was a harmless question. You know perfectly well it is commonplace here and elsewhere for one commenter to ask another for clarification, elaboration, etc.
So again, why?
” Of course I can ask her politely what she meant by it.”
Of course you assert you were polite. Pedinska made a rhetorical wish for a better choice and you ask, politely, how she’d go about doing that …
Politely explain why your ass-hole is front and center.
I should say a word, Gator.
“removed”= wholly unsatisfying, disgusting, null and void. Furthermore, if Clinton and Trump are the standard bearers of the Democrat and Republican political ‘parties’, I ain’t got no use for them either. *never have, really … and I regret stumping for one of ’em in 08.
Now, if I know Pedinska (and I think I do.), she may be rather miffed because, not only do you seem perfectly willing to sacrifice your good sense and principles, nay, your very honor, at the alter of LOTE: ‘fear’eth the Trump like thou fear’est thy Lawd’ … you insist We. Do. Too! You’ve pretty much said here; anything other than a vote for HRC (& that probably assumes not voting at all!), is a vote for the Great Orange Lizard of Gotham.
Like Those Two Are The Only Choices! *Pfft., Given the past 8 years, What donkey cart did you ride in on to tell anyone how to vote?
You and Bernie Sanders are crazier than The Turnip if y’all think Clinton is going to do all those ‘hard fought/won’ party ‘platform planks’ stuff ~ reinstitute Glass-Steagal, College debt forgiveness, fair (labor) Trade, you name it. har har. I doubt y’all will even get a decent SCOTUS.
*It’s not too late for Bernie to drop Clinton like a bad habit, join with Jill or Nader and push on through to the other side, Gator. We’d be up 20!
Pedinska has, as she always does, spoken quite eloquently for herself.
There’s nothing wrong with not voting, in my view. If one prefers to leave that sort of decision-making to others and accept the results thereof, that’s fine.
As for those who do vote, the simple fact is that either Trump or Clinton will be the next president, absent some truly extraordinary occurrence such as an assassination or sudden incapacitating medical event. I think a vote for anyone other than HRC is likely to be based on either: (1) the belief that Trump is the superior candidate; or (2) the belief that there is no meaningful difference between Trump and Clinton, so it really doesn’t matter who wins and the voter is thus free to vote for someone who has no chance of winning in order to “send a message” or to accomplish some other purpose.
I have yet to read or hear an even mildly persuasive argument that either (1) or (2) is a reasonable belief.
“LOTE” is your construction, not mine. I don’t think Clinton is evil. I do think Trump is evil. So to me, the contest is between evil and flawed-but-not-evil. Easy call, IMHO.
See,zionists aren’t for Trump one iota.
I hate propaganda.
Well, unsatisfying or not it will have to do because it is the simple truth.
As you have observed my posting for many years, so have I also done yours. I acknowledged in my comment below that I misinterpreted your intent,
If that was not your intent, I rescind the accusation and will assume that the rest of my explanation sufficed. Written communication, absent the ability to see an interlocutor’s face often leads to misunderstanding of intent. I accept that this is what I did.
but you continue to insinuate that the only rational explanation left for my response is that I must then be unhinged by election fever. I would suggest to you, that offering a backhanded compliment – only a stupid person (which you obviously are not) – followed by calling me unhinged, while ignoring the vast range of other possibilities in between is a bit of dishonest framing.
You assumed, based on nothing whatsoever, that I had some secret nefarious agenda in asking you, politely,
I assumed, yes, but based on observing how you approach commenting to others whose opinions you disagree with. I may not always succeed, but I do try very hard to not make assumptions based on nothing. If you disagree with, or find unsatisfying my explanation for how I arrived at that conclusion, well, fine. I can’t do anything about that other than what I did, which was explain the basis for my response and accept your explanation that I was incorrect.
to have my good faith impugned by you, specifically, was disappointing. But such are the perils, I suppose, of imagining that one somehow “knows” anonymous people on the internet.
Why my impugning of your good faith is still piquing you after I accepted and acknowledged my mistake is….interesting. I have actually met many of the people I have gotten to know on the internet and, almost without fail, they are pretty much as I expected them to be, glories, bumps, warts and all. I am sorry that I have not lived up to your imaginings, just as I am sorry that you have not lived up to mine in some aspects. But that’s sort of what happens all the time when people interact. None of us is perfect.
So, I hope you can get past this somehow because I do think we have interesting exchanges and I would hope that those can continue once the election passes. I will agree to refrain from any assumptions that you will try to “gotcha” me if you will refrain from handing out backhanded compliments and insinuations that I am unhinged. Deal?
Because I am suggesting that WikiLeaks is releasing the documents for political reasons hardly makes me unique. Greenwald is the one that avoids that discussion.
No he doesn’t. He addresses that in his second paragraph:
and, again, in the third,
This is just one example of how you simply ignore bits of an article that directly contradict your spuriously petulant assertions. Your real issue is that Greenwald, or anyone, is writing about this at all because you prefer the authoritarian structures that are being revealed for all to see by the production of inconvenient truths.
Sorry. Not enough coffee.
The above is addressed to one of craigsummers more blatantly untrue assertions below.
Completely false Pedinska. Two sentences, and you are trying to convince me he addressed that topic? No Pedinska, he didn’t address the topic. He simply brought it up. He never mentioned whether he agreed or disagreed that the political agenda of Assange is relevant or not in the release of those documents (meant to influence an election). I suspect he doesn’t give a shit which is fine, but don’t try to tell me he addressed that issue. He didn’t. He mentioned it. That’s all. Even if he doesn’t care, that doesn’t mean that it is not an important issue (Robert Mackey, Intercept):
“…….IN RECENT MONTHS, the WikiLeaks Twitter feed has started to look more like the stream of an opposition research firm working mainly to undermine Hillary Clinton than the updates of a non-partisan platform for whistleblowers…….” – Robert Mackey, Intercept, “What Julian Assange’s War on Hillary Clinton Says About WikiLeaks”
Obviously, that issue may be more important to some journalists.
He never mentioned whether he agreed or disagreed that the political agenda of Assange is relevant or not in the release of those documents (meant to influence an election).
I suggest you take a course in reading for comprehension. He didn’t address the relevancy because, as he noted in the 6th paragraph, in large, bolded font:
Just because you don’t like the argument put forth doesn’t mean it wasn’t addressed. You are acting like a 2-year-old who thinks that the sole effective means to winning an argument is to just keep saying “No!” and, maybe put your hands over your eyes so you don’t have to see the evidence before them.
Now, I have a batch of green tomato and hot pepper pickles to can, so no time for lengthy arguments with someone who denies things right in front of his eyes. Just wanted to note that particular little cranny of duplicity.
“…….Just because you don’t like the argument put forth doesn’t mean it wasn’t addressed. You are acting like a 2-year-old who thinks that the sole effective means to winning an argument is to just keep saying “No!”…..”
The first point by Greenwald discusses the motivation of the source i.e., Snowden, Russia, Chelsea Manning. This has nothing to do with the political motivation of Assange (WikiLeaks).
Go eat Pedinska. Your blood sugar is obviously low.
You are, of course, can and should continue to make your own judgments on the matter. But I have found that drastically cutting down my attention to Craig by over 90% significantly improves the conversation. Replying to him causes him to spew yet more dense walls of repetitive text. But on rare occasion I still do address this or that claim he puts out.
You are, of course, can and should continue to make your own judgments on the matter.
Mona, we have both been in these threads for many, many years. As has craig. In all that time, I have comparatively rarely addressed him, the vast majority of the time scrolling past his lengthy diatribes. You know this.
You also know that I am well-aware of his modus operandi for dislodging the coherency and flow of a given article and/or the comments below it. So please assume that if I choose to respond to craig, or any other noxiously dishonest poster, it’s because I felt that a given point needed to be made (as you’ve recognized they periodically do) and not that I’ve suddenly taken leave of my normal comment section senses and will allow an endless parade of tit-for-tat to occur. I wont. It isn’t worth my time.
Thanks for extending me this courtesy, and thanks for doing the (truly) thankless task of helping new posters understand how some of the more disingenuous among us operate.
Sorry Glen; Journalists are part of the mind control system including you. Of course, the MSM is totally mind controlling and always has been. If it’s corporate, they will present the corporate agenda wrapped in a cloak of objectivity…not. If Government, well, they will present the Government agenda; it can not be otherwise and it has never been otherwise. Information is power; how did Google get so rich; by selling “you” to the hucksters. Truth is not just the first causality of war, it is the first causality of the quest for freedom. The Church used to burn you alive for telling the truth and now the state imprisons you, I guess that’s progress. I doubt you could enter the USA yourself without risk. Personally I believe everyone’s tax return should be public so the people could see how the rich avoid tax and hide money; the powerful already know almost everything about you and the tables should be turned for a change. Oh well, I am reading this because I believe, not know that I am receiving value for the time spent but I really don’t agree that you or anyone else should arbitrate the information I have access to but that will never change.
Glenn went on a multiple U.S. city book tour in 2014 for his book, “No Place To Hide.” He was at the Academy Awards ceremony in 2015 in support of Laura Poitras winning the academy award for Best Documentary for “Citizenfour.”
Laura Poitras — Citizenfour
Thanks; I stand corrected. Bob
craigsummers says:
“I am not arguing about the source of the leaks – Russian or not, OK? My main point addresses WikiLeaks itself. I am only concerned about the political agenda of WikjiLeaks as it pertains to the publishing of documents meant to influence an election coincident with the political agenda of Assange. That’s it. Possibly you think that is irrelevant. I don’t know.”
1. the preponderance of evidence from the leaks suggests that the factual content is true. You don’t deny that.
2. Your issue is with the agenda/source/method of ???? – insert name here.
Please explain how your issue pertains to the 5 points GG has raised in this post. My contention is that you are raising an issue that is not relevant to the matter presented here. Show me the relevance.
JayZ
“………1. the preponderance of evidence from the leaks suggests that the factual content is true. You don’t deny that…….” – JayZ
No, I fully believe the documents are legitimate. For some reason, you want to believe that I support HRC which is totally false.
“…….2. Your issue is with the agenda/source/method of ???? – insert name here……..” – JayZ
I have lost count on how many times I have explained this to you. Here are some clues that I have already posted to you:
“…….My main point addresses WikiLeaks itself……..” – craigsummers
“…….Again, for the third time, I am questioning the political agenda of Assange – and it is a common topic in the world of journalism right now……” – craigsummers
“……..What isn’t discussed in Greenwald’s article but lucidly by Mackey is what motivates Assange which I do believe is important…….”
And in the first two sentences of my response to Greenwald (10-14-2016; 5:51 AM) which you responded to initially:
“…….Assange is using his powerful position as the arbiter of stolen documents to purposely influence a US election for political reasons. WikiLeaks may have initially published documents for the public good (adversarial journalism), but the organization has clearly become an advocate for one candidate in this election……..”
Above you write:
“…….Please explain how your issue pertains to the 5 points GG has raised in this post. My contention is that you are raising an issue that is not relevant to the matter presented here…….” – JayZ
My response to you is from a previous response to you:
“……..What isn’t discussed in Greenwald’s article but lucidly by Mackey is what motivates Assange which I do believe is important…….” – craigsummers
You write:
“……Show me the relevance…….” – JayZ
It’s self-explanatory, but this issue was NOT addressed by Greenwald. I hope that helps.
Thanks.
craigsummers writes:
((((((((((((((((((((((((((
“……..What isn’t discussed in Greenwald’s article but lucidly by Mackey is what motivates Assange which I do believe is important…….” – craigsummers
You write:
“……Show me the relevance…….” – JayZ
It’s self-explanatory, but this issue was NOT addressed by Greenwald. I hope that helps.
)))))))))))))))))
And, for the nth time, you make a broad claim that Assange’s motives are important, but you do not address the issues. Perhaps you have found it difficult to articulate a logical argument, and that is why you call it “self-explanatory”. Here are some hints that could help you step through and form a logical argument.
A. There is an assertion that Assange has motives. That by itself is free of content. Everyone has a motive. You need to state the motive and offer some degree of proof for the motive.
B. There is an implied assertion that Assange’s motives are relevant to the content of GG’s post (5 points), but you have not made a connection. Please connect your motives (that you state in A) to one or more of GG’s 5 points.
C. Your reference to Mackey’s article does not lend credence to your argument because: 1) the argument is Mackey’s and not yours, 2) you can’t bootstrap from an unsubstantiated allegation by Mr. Mackey who has a record of being in error on more than one occasion, and 3) by your standards, Mr. Mackey’s arguments are suspect, because he has motives.
For the nth time, in what specific way(s) does (do) Assange’s motives impact the 5 points GG raised in his post?
Watched you interview Edward Snowden with Laura and was very impressed. Also watched Jeremy Scahill interview Julian Assange from the Ecuadorian Embassy. What I wanted to ask you Glenn is why you live in Latin America, is it for safety reasons? Hat’s off to you if so. Read Blackwater and a documentary that Jeremy created and again was very impressed. God, do I sound sycophantic or what? Would you please tell Edward and Julian that we, the people, consider them as modern day heroes. Is there anything you as noted journalists can do to get Chelsea Manning released. Or is the military a law unto itself?
This is the best explanation I have seen yet why the “Russia Did It!” narrative is such bullshit:
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2016/07/hoisted-from-comments-can-we-even-know-who-hacked-the-dnc-email.html
sillyputty
“…….He believes, erroneously, that this is what makes America “American.”……”
Lying is not going to get you anywhere sillyputty. Maybe you have a link that proves that?
“…….He believes, erroneously, that this [torture] is what makes America “American.”…..” my insert in brackets
So there is no misunderstanding about what you are referring to.
Fair enough. Your stand on torture (American should do it) is not in question here, and you not refuting the rest of the points being made in my previous comment are fine?
“CraigSummers is an avowed and proud supporter of state sponsored torture, aka terrorism.”
and
“It’s actually what makes him [CraigSummers] un-American.”
Your stance on torture is un-American. Oh, and it’s illegal, too.
OK?
Here is what I said about torture so you don’t “misunderstand” my position again. I posted this to Mona several months ago as well because she also misrepresented my position on torture:
“…….Of course, those who support torture can never claim the moral high ground. That’s obvious. There is only one reason to support torture – and that is to save lives……” – craigsummers
“…….I do not find it objectionable to “attack” or criticize torture. That’s a perfectly reasonable position. In addition, it’s illegal. However, what I do say is that torture – or the use of some techniques (as outlined by John Yoo of the Bush Justice Department) – was a reasonable response to the attacks of 911 in lieu of further potential attacks designed to kill thousands of innocent civilians. I stand behind that without reservation. I don’t support the use of torture, in general. I do in special cases. Simple…….” – craigsummers
“……..Most Americans supported torture after 911 to save lives and prevent further attacks (as I have stated twice before) which is a reasonable reaction in lieu of the murder of 3000 innocent people……..” – craigsummers
Whatever you post outside of those positions are lies unless you can prove otherwise.
Just so we’re crystal clear: I don’t now and have never misunderstood your position on torture. You advocate it.
No matter the reasons supplied for this position, it is wrong.
sillyputty
“……..In other words, this is just another example of how you feel that pigeonholing and labeling others (the “far-left,’ or “for political purposes,” etc.) is an actual argument in your book when, in fact, it’s just a personal attack, and not a rebuttal at all…..” – sillyputty
This little exchange from a long time ago proved you to be a fraud concerning political labels. Indeed it is all based on your own political agenda:
CraigSummers ? CraigSummers
Oct. 17 2014, 3:19 p.m.
“……..Well sillyputty. You certainly made some great points about “labels”. Maybe you want to comment on the labeling by Mona?? Maybe even Dabney would like to straighten Mona out on the use of labels…..” – craigsummers
-Mona- ? CraigSummers
Oct. 17 2014, 5:35 p.m.
“…….But Craig, CiFWatch objectively is a rabid nest of fascist Zionists who hold especial hatred for Glenn……” – Mona
Sillyputty ? CraigSummers
Oct. 18 2014, 6:58 p.m.
“Well sillyputty. You certainly made some great points about “labels”. Maybe you want to comment on the labeling by Mona?” – craigsummers
“………Thanks Craig. Looks like Mona has explained her already self-explanatory label, noting correctly that it was an objective and succinct view being presented. This is in comparison to the all too often rather broad, ambiguous labels that you choose to use, i.e., “far-left”, etc.…..” – sillyputty
You gotta love that exchange from long ago, sillyputty. You proved that political labels only bother you when you are labeled a far left wing hack. You lost all credibility and proved I was right in that single response. And you know what? You have not changed in the least. That is exactly why “political purposes” and “political agenda” are important concepts because they drive the debate on this thread. Even Nick Cohen would agree with that.
That’s rich, indeed.
So my refusal to use your bad reasoning of political pigeonholing (aka strawmen) to label someone else somehow supports your argument?
Please explain how this works [with blockquotes and better formatting for readability using this link] for us all.
We’ll wait.
DocHollywood
“…….The war of aggression, the “supreme international war crime” in the words of the Nuremberg Tribunals, was initiated by the American regime as described years ago in the PNAC and subsequently confirmed by Former Supreme Military Commander of NATO , General Wesley Clark, and Former Director of the US Defense Intelligence Agency, General Michael Flynn. Bringing up PNAC simply confirms the supreme international war crime had been planned all along, but to a dishonest psychopath that fact doesn’t mean anything……”
You are 100% right. What you have posted so far means absolutely nothing. Go ahead Doc. Show how the Nuremberg Trials, Wesley Clark and Michael Flynn “prove that the “supreme international war crime had been planned all along” – and that the war in Syria was INITIATED by PNAC (during the Obama administration. You are still a fucking idiot until you can show that – and it is impossible to show because Assad started the conflict. I will be waiting Doc. Good luck
CraigSummers, NedM and others are afflicted with self-inflicted mental wounds of logical fallacy. A bit dramatic, I know, but I am trying to give them the benefit of the doubt and wish them a few pleasing hours touring the basics of logic.
Content of a statement can be evaluated based on the evidence in support of that statement. All other disjunctive statements – true or false – are irrelevant so far as a logical conclusion is concerned. Let me unpack this for you. If Wikileaks, or RT, or NYT, or GG make a statement, a critical mind evaluates that statement based on the evidence – irrespective of the source.
When one is unable to assess the content of a statement deductively, or inductively, then one may have to appeal to arguments of probability and circumstances. Appeal to probability and circumstance is not necessary in this case – The messages by Wikileaks by all accounts are not fakes.
If you find this hard to understand, there are a few place to look: a) in the mirror – because you may not want to understand, b) the word logic on google – learn a bit about making logical statements, c) in the mirror – ask yourself if you are capable of understanding logical statements.
“……..Content of a statement can be evaluated based on the evidence in support of that statement. All other disjunctive statements – true or false – are irrelevant so far as a logical conclusion is concerned. Let me unpack this for you. If Wikileaks, or RT, or NYT, or GG make a statement, a critical mind evaluates that statement based on the evidence – irrespective of the source……”
Now, I am going to tell you for the fourth time. I am not arguing about the source of the leaks – Russian or not, OK? My main point addresses WikiLeaks itself. I am only concerned about the political agenda of WikjiLeaks as it pertains to the publishing of documents meant to influence an election coincident with the political agenda of Assange. That’s it. Possibly you think that is irrelevant. I don’t know.
@CraigSummers,
Here’s that website (again) for easy and quick hyper-link insertion and block-quoting of commentary.
With regards to your amazement and misunderstanding as to why you think I can’t figure out why you post here, I’ve explained that already:
This is also why I reject most, if not all all of them.
Essentially what this position does is deny the agency of others simply because their reasons for acting or thinking the way they do doesn’t coincide with the way you do, or with the way that you think they should.
The reason this is troubling is that in doing this, in denying the agency of another by using the rational that their position is objectionable simply because of what you decide their political position to be, you marginalize them into nonexistence.
The irony here? You use your “political reasons” to invalidate theirs.
The crime here? You fail miserably to recognize that most issues we face today are a result of the same myopic position.
The good news is that this worldview that you hold is largely self-inflicted and completely reversible.
Lastly, I hope you’re not in any position of power that can influence other human beings with your agency-robbing perspective more so than what we’ve been able to read about on here.
In other words, this is just another example of how you feel that pigeonholing and labeling others (the “far-left,’ or “for political purposes,” etc.) is an actual argument in your book when, in fact, it’s just a personal attack, and not a rebuttal at all.
“In other words, this is just another example of how you feel that pigeonholing and labeling others (the “far-left,’ or “for political purposes,” etc.) is an actual argument in your book when, in fact, it’s just a personal attack, and not a rebuttal at all.” – sillyputty @ craigsummers
All true, but let’s not short shrift his straw men:
The post lightly [edited] for accuracy:
The war of aggression, the “supreme international war crime” in the words of the Nuremberg Tribunals, was initiated by the American regime as described years ago in the PNAC and subsequently confirmed by Former Supreme Military Commander of NATO , General Wesley Clark, and Former Director of the US Defense Intelligence Agency, General Michael Flynn. Bringing up PNAC simply confirms the supreme international war crime had been planned all along, but to a dishonest psychopath that fact doesn’t mean anything.
“Nothing quite shows the remarkably idiotic [way the facts don’t matter to me then when I ignore what was posted and resort to spewing deflections like,] ‘Did the twenty-five signatories to the guiding principles for PNAC start the Arab Spring also?’
Attempting to [conflate] the Arab [Spring with] the [US war on Syria is [my] ludicrous [way of avoiding the facts presented to me]. This was about [plans to control the resources of the Middle East for which the US] initiated the war in Syria[. I am making a fool of myself trying to ignore the facts].
I am sure if I would have read a little further, I probably would have found [more facts that eviscerate my claims. I would just ignore those too. My] entire post was way off the mark, [and] this was[n’t even] the most ridiculous. It was [the US] that STARTED the war in Syria[, so I will just avoid the facts].
Jesus Fucking Christ Doc, [what’s really pathetic is that my transparent attempt to conflate the Arab Spring with the US war crimes in Syria isn’t even] the most idiotic [thing I] have ever said – [not] even [close]. . .”
DocHollywood writes:
“……. The war [of aggression, the “supreme international war crime” in the words of the Nuremberg Tribunals,] was initiated by the A[merican] regime [as described years ago in the PNAC and subsequently confirmed by Former Supreme Military Commander of NATO , General Wesley Clark, and Former Director of the US Defense Intelligence Agency, General Michael Flynn]. Bringing up PNAC simply [confirms the supreme international war crime had been planned all along, but to a dishonest psychopath that fact] doesn’t mean anything.”…..”
Nothing quite shows the remarkably persistent/consistent conspiratorial nature of anti-Americanism quite like this idiotic statement from DocHollywood. Did the twenty-five signatories to the guiding principles for PNAC start the Arab Spring also? According to Wikipedia:
“……The Arab Spring (Arabic: ?????? ????????, ar-rab?? al-?arab?) was a revolutionary wave of demonstrations and protests, both non-violent and violent, riots, and civil wars in the Arab world that began on 17 December 2010 in Tunisia with the Tunisian Revolution, and spread throughout the countries of the Arab League and its surroundings. Major insurgencies in Syria, Libya and Yemen resulted along with civil uprisings in Egypt and Bahrain, large street demonstrations in Algeria, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Morocco and Oman, and minor protests even in Saudi Arabia.[1]…..”
Attempting to connect the spread of the Arab political revolution to PNAC is ludicrous. This was about people demonstrating for political rights. In Syria, as many as 100,000 protesters took to the streets in Homs (Wikipedia) before the crack-down by the Syrian government which initiated the war in Syria. Amnesty International accused the Syrian government of war crimes:
“………..When army tanks recently rolled into the city of Dera’a in southern Syria and began shelling residential areas, the human rights crisis in the country reached a new low. More than 400 people have died across Syria since protestors calling for political reform took to the streets in mid-March. Hundreds of people have been arbitrarily arrested and detained incommunicado, placing them at serious risk of torture [or execution] and other ill-treatment. Torture of detainees has long been common and endemic in Syria…..Amnesty International has repeatedly urged the Syrian government to rein in the security forces……The Syrian authorities have failed to take these steps and intensified repression.Consequently, Amnesty International has called on the UN Security Council to refer Syria to the Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court, to impose an arms embargo and to freeze the assets abroad of the Syrian President and his senior associates…….”
I am sure if I would have read a little further, I probably would have found the section in AI’s report accusing PNAC of starting the Arab Spring in Tunisia for regime change in Syria. Your entire post was way off the mark, but this far and away was the most ridiculous. It was Assad – not PNAC that STARTED the war in Syria. Jesus Fucking Christ Doc, that is probably the most idiotic thing you have said – maybe even ever……
Intentionally or unintentionally, ‘pro-Americanism’ includes support for state-sponsored terrorism led by the US, and support for harrowing continuing bloodshed around the globe. Full Stop.
Politicians in every country, particularly those in the West, have every responsibility to bring the champions of destabilisation, the biggest sponsor of terrorism in the world, to justice.
CraigSummers is an avowed and proud supporter of state sponsored torture, aka terrorism.
He believes, erroneously, that this is what makes America “American.”
It’s actually what makes him un-American.
Full stop.
to all –
FIRST: THANK YOU, Sillyputty for your kind words and standing up for me. I didn’t get to the site yesterday, so I’m doing a bit of catching up. I do hope I keep up to that standard :)
SECOND: Thanks to AthiestinChief (and anyone else) who was wondering the same thing.
THIRD: to Doug Salzman whose reply very, very poor. I want to know WHY TI hasn’t written an article supporting Amy Goodman, NOT why she isn’t writing for TI. FAIR even had an article about why other journalists haven’t been supporting her. TI seems to be concerned about freedom of the press, so WHY has her plight – and the filmmaker now facing serious jail time (as mentioned downthread) been ignored? These are serious challenges to Freedom of the Press.
And please, lose the condescending tone, as Sillyputty noted.
Hi feline16, nice to see you! If I recall, you had a blog(?) which I thought I’d read a time or two. If that’s the case, do you mind sharing the site with us again?
Thanks!
Hi Sillyputty –
Glad to see you, too :-)
And be careful what you ask for. My main blog is at:
http://observergal.blogspot.com
All welcome to visit…
Thank you! I’m sure there’s some anti-American (or other, sinister) political purpose that drives you in your musings there. When I find out (or CraigSummers tells me once he visits) I’ll be sure to warn everyone away! ;-)
Hi there –
Who me, anti-American? sinister? Well, if believing in things such as Dr. King’s dream, The Golden Rule, the First Amendment and all makes me those things , I must be guilty, right? :-)
Update on the foolishness of the Amy Goodman prosecution: The “Trespassing” charge has been dropped. So I guess because the prosecutor doesn’t have enough egg on his face after that debacle he has chosen to try his luck with charging Amy Goodman with “Rioting.” This guy is, as they say, a fucking piece of work.
N.D. Prosecutor Seeks “Riot” Charges Against Amy Goodman
Jesus Christ. There are no more good guys left, in positions of authority, in the US. What a fucking tragedy.
AtheistinChief, I’ve been thinking that way for a long time now. Watching the house in action, though, Trey Gowdy appears to be a man of some integrity and he was a prosecutor. I just hope he has not been compromised. Politics is dirty and we in Ireland see it up close and plenty being such a tiny dot on the map. I’ve chosen not to live amongst people and just concentrate on my animals as we could all learn from these ‘dumb’ creatures.
@Kitt, @AthiestinChief –
(I know, I keep strange hours…) Was just going to post about the ***** prosecutor changing the charge to – rioting??? This is potentially a much more serious charge. We’d all better show our outrage about this. So where is the coverage, TI??? An article coming from TI staff would be a great way to show support and to shine the light on these cockroaches.
Chris Hayes can be such a Clinton media whore. Pathetic twerp.
(Since the Intercept is choking on this post, once again without the link–you can find it.)
wikileaks has released some of the full speeches Hillary gave. There will be much to keep people busy.
Example:
Clinton referring to Iran
Very interesting.
Context:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_alleged_Iran_assassination_plot
Has to be sarcasm.
” is the now standard Democratic campaign tactic of reflexively accusing adversaries of being tools or agents of Moscow.”
But the Dims call their base “the Red Army”. So what do they expect?
wikileaks has released some of the full speeches Hillary gave. There will be much to keep people busy.
https://www.wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/11011#attachments
Example:
Clinton referring to Iran
Very interesting.
@CraigSummers
This really seems to be the crux of most, if not all all of your arguments.
This is also why I reject most, if not all all of them.
Essentially what this position does is deny the agency of others simply because their reasons for acting or thinking the way they do doesn’t coincide with the way you do, or with the way that you think they should.
The reason this is troubling is that in doing this, in denying the agency of another by using the rational that their position is objectionable simply because of what you decide their political position to be, you marginalize them into nonexistence.
The irony here? You use your “political reasons” to invalidate theirs.
The crime here? You fail miserably to recognize that most issues we face today are a result of the same myopic position.
The good news is that this worldview that you hold is largely self-inflicted and completely reversible.
Lastly, I hope you’re not in any position of power that can influence other human beings with your agency-robbing perspective more so than what we’ve been able to read about on here.
As posted in reply to someone else:
. . .and now lightly [edited] for accuracy:
“I can’t believe [my contradictions, hypocrisy, and sickness]. First, the US is bombing Syria right now [which is a war crime] – and killing civilians [as it commits war crimes]. Effectively, the US with a policy of regime change [in violation of the United Nations Charter, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, so far in Syria alone has caused] 300,000-400,000 [deaths, and is a war crime.
Throughout the world, US war crimes have caused the deaths of millions, so why should I be] suddenly worried about killing [dark-skinned] civilians? [Do you think I care that the US is committing war crimes as it tries yet again to] destroy another country? Jesus, maybe [I really am the very definition of “psychopath]”.
Third[?], Russia and the Syrian regime are [committing war crimes too, just as the US and its proxies like ISIS are committing “war crimes, crimes against humanity and possibly genocide” according to the UN] – The Assad regime has committed war crime after war crime [just like the US and its proxies like ISIS are committing “war crimes, crimes against humanity and possibly genocide”] The war [of aggression, the “supreme international war crime” in the words of the Nuremberg Tribunals,] was initiated by the A[merican] regime [as described years ago in the PNAC and subsequently confirmed by Former Supreme Military Commander of NATO , General Wesley Clark, and Former Director of the US Defense Intelligence Agency, General Michael Flynn]. Bringing up PNAC simply [confirms the supreme international war crime had been planned all along, but to a dishonest psychopath that fact] doesn’t mean anything.”
Completely ridiculous sillyputty. Because I am suggesting that WikiLeaks is releasing the documents for political reasons hardly makes me unique. Greenwald is the one that avoids that discussion. There is a whole bunch of articles on this topic.
“……Assange still presents himself as above the fray, more interested in liberating secrets and destroying the barriers to information than in grubby power exchanges of partisan politics. But at this point, even confined to a diplomatic building in London, he has considerable experience in influencing elections abroad and a documented political record……..” – Jacob Siegel of the Daily Beast, “The Origin of Julian Assange’s War on Hillary Clinton”
“…….IN RECENT MONTHS, the WikiLeaks Twitter feed has started to look more like the stream of an opposition research firm working mainly to undermine Hillary Clinton than the updates of a non-partisan platform for whistleblowers…….” – Robert Mackey, Intercept, “What Julian Assange’s War on Hillary Clinton Says About WikiLeaks”
“……..Mr. Assange proffered a vision of America as superbully: a nation that has achieved imperial power by proclaiming allegiance to principles of human rights while deploying its military-intelligence apparatus in “pincer” formation to “push” countries into doing its bidding, and punishing people like him who dare to speak the truth…….Notably absent from Mr. Assange’s analysis, however, was criticism of another world power, Russia, or its president, Vladimir V. Putin, who has hardly lived up to WikiLeaks’ ideal of transparency. Mr. Putin’s government has cracked down hard on dissent — spying on, jailing, and, critics charge, sometimes assassinating opponents while consolidating control over the news media and internet. If Mr. Assange appreciated the irony of the moment — denouncing censorship in an interview on Russia Today, the Kremlin-controlled English-language propaganda channel — it was not readily apparent……..” – NYT “How Russia Often Benefits When Julian Assange Reveals the West’s Secrets”
I find it interesting that journalists (even within the Intercept) question the motives and political agenda of Assange. The motives of Assange should be troubling to you since he is trying to influence an election because he seeks revenge, or disagrees politically with HRC – not because he is trying to disseminate information about the power structure in the US for the peasants. In fact he is nothing but a classic radical leftist driven by anti-Americanism probably keeping his options open for sanctuary in Russia (Nick Cohen, Guardian today):
“…….The far left’s ideology is not “leftwing” in any sense that a socialist from the 19th or 20th centuries would have understood. It is simply opposition to the west whatever the west does. Occidentalism explains the appearances of Labour’s leaders on Iran’s propaganda channels , the endorsements of Russian imperialism, and the silence that greets the Syrian massacres…….”
Thanks
I already stated that when I said this:
“You fail miserably to recognize that most issues we face today are a result of the same myopic position.”
Your crime, as with others that negate the agency of others for political purposes, is being ignorant to such an extent that you fail to realize that it’s your un-empathetic reasoning skills that are the biggest part of the problem.
“…….Your crime, as with others that negate the agency of others for political purposes, is being ignorant to such an extent that you fail to realize that it’s your un-empathetic reasoning skills that are the biggest part of the problem…..”
Just a personal attack, not a rebuttal. If you can conjure up an actual response or a rebuttal to my post, let me know (business as usual with you sillyputty)
Thanks.
sillyputty
What is amazing to me is you still cannot figure out why I post here. Nick Cohen in an article at the Guardian writes (today):
“…….The far left’s ideology is not “leftwing” in any sense that a socialist from the 19th or 20th centuries would have understood. It is simply opposition to the west whatever the west does. Occidentalism explains the appearances of Labour’s leaders on Iran’s propaganda channels , the endorsements of Russian imperialism, and the silence that greets the Syrian massacres…….”
Notice his use of the words “far left”. Eventually as long as I can remain patient, I am confident you will figure this out.
@PEDINSKA
“Don’t play fucking gotcha games with me gator.”
Er, huh? You said both major party candidates “should be removed” and I asked what you meant by it. Because I didn’t know and was interested. In what sense is that a “gotcha game”?
I can’t ask another commenter what is meant by the words he/she has chosen to put here? WTF?
Hey Gator. I have been accused of a lot worse things (even by you!).
Well, yes, but many (though not all) of the accusations made against you are accurate. You ARE, among other things, an authoritarian Zionist who advocates government torture (albeit only under “special” circumstances as determined by whoever is in power at a given time).
And, to be fair, I’m not above “gotcha games,” as the great (no snark — she is in fact great) Pedinska phrased it. But asking another commenter what is meant by his or her words isn’t a “gotcha” under any rational understanding. I guess elections tend to make a lot of us a little crazy sometimes.
This is exactly why I said it,
And, to be fair, I’m not above “gotcha games,”
And, when you do engage in them it is almost always couched in the simplest of mildly worded questions, exactly as you did to me. If that was not your intent, I rescind the accusation and will assume that the rest of my explanation sufficed. Written communication, absent the ability to see an interlocutor’s face often leads to misunderstanding of intent. I accept that this is what I did.
I guess elections tend to make a lot of us a little crazy sometimes.
Yes. And I am really quite done with my intentions/morals/sanity being questioned by anyone – especially people who’ve known me for years (friends, family, neighbors, etc) – who finds out that I simply cannot bring myself to vote for either major party candidate because of their individual histories of monstrosity.
It’s truly tiresome to be treated as if there’s something wrong with you for not wanting women to be (on the one hand) addressed/treated as Of[husband’s name] or (on the other hand) outright murdered or bombed into fucking oblivion for personal and/or economic profit. And that’s just one of the many foci of fuckery that this election has come to represent in my experience.
Of course, you cannot remove two candidates nominated by their parties in a two party system, but both of these candidates could not possibly be worse considering there are 320,000,000 people in the US.
both of these candidates could not possibly be worse considering there are 320,000,000 people in the US.
Yes. Finally, something we can agree on.
I would just take it one step further and note that a system that consistently yields horrible candidates is one in desperate need of change.
“I can’t ask another commenter what is meant by the words he/she has chosen to put here? WTF?”
Yeah, Gator never asks loaded questions …
WTF indeed.
This is a historically significant moment and requires a global intervention to stop large scale crimes from being sponsored and committed by the US.
The all powerful elites have just managed to orchestrate turning the press OFF for topics they don’t want people to hear about, and turning them ON for approved topics.
These tests are proving to be a fantastic success for traditional media outlets; those with critical mass circulation.
The topics which the press quite happily turned OFF all carry evidence of state-sponsored terrorism.
The press (including the Guardian) is suppressing evidence of heinous crimes committed 24×7 by the US with political and logistical support from US allies.
Any country serious about human rights, and want to halt the destruction brought by the US to many parts of the world, must bring US politicians to account using the harshest and the most urgent measures.
Problems will not be solved by the same routines that created them.
The one thing we know for certain is that people in positions of power lie. The profession is irrelevant. For example, Trump (chronic liar) and Hillary (calculated liar) are politicians. Assange is a “journalist” (press conference):
“…….“There’s been a lot of misquoting of me and WikiLeaks publications. In this particular case, the misquoting has to do with that we intend, or I intend, to harm Hillary Clinton or that I don’t like Hillary Clinton. All those are false. They come about as a result it seems of this campaign and those who are trying to personalize our publications.”……”
None the less, a fucking liar……
It’s not quite this simple. People who aren’t in positions of power also lie (although their lies are often less consequential). The best general rule of thumb is to be skeptical of anything said by a human being.
Some people believe that children tell the truth. This belief is generally held by those who have mostly forgotten their own childhood. It is true that lying, while innate, does improve with practice. So children often make rookie mistakes that give them away. This, however, should not be confused with a predilection to tell the truth.
Mr. Assange does seem to be a poor liar. Denying that he doesn’t like Hillary Clinton is a fairly transparent lie, since nobody likes Mrs. Clinton. Which, by the way, is her most endearing feature and the reason I like her.
“…….since nobody likes Mrs. Clinton……”
I assume that is a typo Benito. It should read Crooked Hillary. Otherwise spot on as usual.
“I’ve learned some lessons in my life
Always be careful of mankind
They’ll make you promises today
But tomorrow they change their mind” ~ “Lessons in My Life” by Peter Tosh
Assange barely registers, Duce, while Trump and Clinton peg the liarometer at max.
“…….Assange barely registers, Duce, while Trump and Clinton peg the liarometer at max……”
There is no question that the “advocacy” journalism of Assange is embraced here as much as Greenwald’s. They certainly think alike politically which is probably why Greenwald protects him. Nick Cohen writes at the Guardian (today):
“…….The far left’s ideology is not “leftwing” in any sense that a socialist from the 19th or 20th centuries would have understood. It is simply opposition to the west whatever the west does. Occidentalism explains the appearances of Labour’s leaders on Iran’s propaganda channels , the endorsements of Russian imperialism, and the silence that greets the Syrian massacres…….”
There is no better example than Mona, but you do just fine on your own.
” Leaving aside the fact that there is no evidence (just unproven U.S. government assertions) that the Russian government is behind these hacks, the motive of a source is utterly irrelevant in the decision-making process about whether to publish”
Last Sunday on Fox News Donna Brazille was asked about the latest Wikileaks dump and she brushed off the question like a dandruff flake on her shoulder, Something about I do not repeat anything from questionable sources,
Maddow, Matthews, O’Donnell etc not touching the issue, Silent while they go on thrashing Trump and his sexual predatory behavior aud nauseum, Never of course ever even whispering about HRC’s war record,
Some twisted priorities,
… usually taken without authorization from powerful institutions acting if not “illegally” (since they write their own “laws”), definitely unmorally in secret and then given to the group to publish — while news outlets report on what they very often in preposterous patronizing ways consider to be their relevant content.
… since that honest to matters plutocratic stooge who has exemplarily debased not only the Republican party, but politics as we knew it in the U.S. is such a WYSIWYG kind of guy that there is from very little to nothing to be “leaked” about him. They exploited all they could possibly could any way from naked pictures of his wife/mother of his children and even suggesting sexuality of his own children to his tax returns
What do you mean by “private”? What is “privacy” in these NSA-ruled new brave world if not some silly Santa sort of illusion for adults?
“curating”?
I agree as JayZ magistrally put it:
I agree. Those documents should be public information anyway we even pay those “public servants'” salaries, right? Why is it that we know not to privately use computers in our own work places but allow those idiots to own our rear ends to me is stupid beyond belief
Being “serious” doesn’t seem to be what matters, but being “ethical” or not.
I totally agree relating to the public matters they handle and I couldn’t effing care less about their private sh!t unless is sheds light over their own hypocrisy, lack of moral standing and sense of moral equity. Say, a judge rules in NY (as they did) that you could not include a “health” tax soda drinks/junk food because this would be “unconstitutional” (or some whatever “legal” b#llsh!t) if “Russian hackers paid by Putin” manage to get a picture of his family’s fridge and/or a history of his and his family’s grocery bills showing how “illegal”, “unconstitutional” they are (since they don’t buy soda drinks/junk food for themselves of their family) as part of a scientifically demonstrable account of how poor people are being fed unhealthy sh!t and how adds about food and drinks change depending of the neighborhood so that big business farma and medical companies profit from poor people getting sick, then it is totally OK to include that piece of private information and we should thank “Russian hackers paid by Putin” for messing with “‘our’ nation” since our “patriotic”, “ethical”, “responsible” media outlets would not do so …
Yes, sure! and while we are at it we should not “ethically” obscure the name and illegal, unmoral actions of agents who repeatedly say that “nothing of what they do is ‘illegal'”, so, why does theIntercept even ask for “redacting suggestion”, effectively editorial permission to them?
Thank you for doing us the favor of defining for us what we should know, how we should think about it and now, what journalism entails, should be, … is.
There are no better slaves that those that wholeheartedly believe to be “free”.
I find silly how even people who dare to post here at theIntercept wonder if there really is and why would there be paid trolls in “‘the’ land of ‘the’ ‘free’ and ‘the’ ‘brave'” and would spend so much mind and time with silly, back and forth ad hominem qualms.
Such a thing as paid trolls would be “‘Un’-American”, right? It reminds me of how people in the U.S. would make fun of all “‘freedom-hating’ lowlifes in the rest of the world, who would spy on one another” … “of course, ‘freedom-lovers’, would not even begin to comprehend, let alone do such things” …
What you call “pompousness”. Glenn seems to be taken to the next logical level now. He used to call himself an “ethical” journalist while “redacting” (lately he seems to have started using the more responsibly sounding verb “curating”) any identifying kind of incriminating identifying info about people even boasting about torture. Now he is not anymore an “ethical” journalist, but just a “journalist”, because (he self-servingly reasons) all “journalists” except those wikileaks crazy nuts and those other idiotic ones who very obviously don’t understand their profession such as Jamie Kalven, who are just the exceptions proving the case:
// __ WATCH YOUR BACK. Chicago Police Bosses Targeted Cops Who Exposed Corruption
https://theintercept.com/2016/10/06/chicago-police-bosses-targeted-cops-who-exposed-corruption/?comments=1#comments
Thank you James
Duce, your sarcasm is so sharp that I even wonder if Glenn gets your point. I expected more elaboration on your part on that predictably expected ball from Glenn.
truth and peace and love
RCL
What is the obligation to authenticate the material, particularly when there is such a large volume of it? It would be trivial to edit or add to a large document dump such as the Podesta email archive. What responsibility do journalists bear to independently (to the degree they can) verify the information therein before publishing? I generally agree that sunshine is a good thing, but there seems like there is the potential for a lot of mischief too.
Power and Privacy are not a balancing act IMO.
The more power one has, the less power they should have.
Privacy is NOT an entitlement of public property and the USG has been robbing the public or a very long time. Choose your pain – allow privacy to be the weapon of choice to rule over a populace allow NONE and be a freed society without the entagled secret deal bullshit that privateers creates.
Government is NOT a matter of power, it is a matter of OWNERSHIP.
choose your pain
This is why Wikileaks should keep on leaking!
https://www.rt.com/op-edge/362819-clinton-emails-syria-wikileaks/
What the centers of powers don’t want the folks to know, which is why the noise machine has put up this nonsense about Russia hack, is that Democrats and Republicans continue to dream up more wars and misery on other people. You can’t have this kind of information get wide circulation!!
Wow, a RT link. Does anyone actually still read that? Look, Russia is already attacking everyone via economy (as much as they can in their present state) and propaganda (starting with RT). It’s a war. Cold one but a war nonetheless. Would you rather choose a candidate who acknowledges there’s a war, or a candidate who wants to surrender?
It is quite obvious you lost the war for your mind.
1-2-3-4,we don’t want no nuclear war!
Trump 2016!
According to Reuters (November 15, 2014):
“……..Russian state-controlled TV has broadcast what it called “sensational” photographs, which it said supported Moscow’s theory that Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 was shot down by a Ukrainian fighter jet……..”
Sensational indeed (NYT September 8, 2016):
“……..A Dutch-led investigation has concluded that the powerful surface-to-air missile system used to shoot down a Malaysia Airlines plane over Ukraine two years ago, killing all 298 on board, was trucked in from Russia at the request of Russian-backed separatists and returned to Russia the same night……”
Hey CraigSummers – could you insert hyperlinks to the article(s) you cite?
This site makes such tasks quite uncomplicated.
http://nyti.ms/2cBY1ky
https://www.kyivpost.com/article/content/murder-in-the-sky-malaysia-airlines-flight-17/reuters-russian-tv-channel-says-photos-show-mh17-shot-down-by-fighter-je-371964.html
good counsel too bad the kind of journalists who would take the advise are not in MSM these days
1. A source’s motives are irrelevant in deciding whether to publish
If this is true, then why does the intercept use “anonymous government sources” in its articles? Absent the express reference to purported government sources, that information would fail to stand on its own merits. The inferences drawn from a purported “anonymous government source” is that the leaked information is credible – else why publish it?
2. Journalists constantly publish material that is stolen or illegally obtained […] No serious journalist would refrain from publishing a newsworthy story because the source broke the law to obtain it.
Maybe not… but they might delay the publish date of a story out of a deference to desired outcomes. Such is the nature of advocacy journalism.
3. The more public power someone has, the less privacy they are entitled to claim
This is the very argument that many people made when Rep. Weiner was caught sexting on open servers.
4. Whether something is “shocking” or “earth-shattering” is an irrelevant standard
In an attempt to build ones brand, with an eye to maximizing circulation and profit maximize, stories are always presented with a hook in the title. The proof of this can be found everyday on the Intercept servers. I have routinely read commentary in which the reader complains that the article did not live up to the hyperbolic inferences contained in its title. Employing such “lead-ins” invites such comparisons.
5. All journalists are arbiters of privacy and gatekeepers of information […] And the most commonly applied principles render it a very easy call whether to report on the contents of the Podesta email archive, which is why every major media outlet in the U.S. is reporting on it.
Again, the deeply salacious and controversial nature of Weiner’s sexting was the overriding standard by which ALL media outlets determined the story’s news worthiness. Oh sure, one or two outlets were allegedly shocked at the unwarranted violation of Weiner’s privacy… but hey even their Website visits went through the roof (Making the best of a bad thing? Burp!).
The hard-fought progressive promises made by Hillary at the end of the primaries are fading away. The Wikileaks and the Trump’s circus are diverting attention from the issues. Help hold Hillary accountable to her promises. I signed a petition to help Hillary re-write the rules of the American Economy to fight inequality in a comprehensive way. Please sign and share. Click here: http://petitions.moveon.org/sign/appoint-joseph-e-stiglitz?source=s.icn.em.cr&mailing_id=35627&%3Br_by=5128323&r_by=806582&%3Bsource=s.icn.em.cr
A message I am seeing over and over again on twitter:
Initial tweet from the sister of comedian Sarah Silverman who would, of course, know nothing about being privileged. [/snark]
Responses – and there have been shittons of them – are coming overwhelmingly from black men and women and people who are Muslim.
https://twitter.com/Delo_Taylor/status/786701988880850948
Interesting couple, Rabbi Laura and her husband, Yosef (aka, ‘Captain Sunshine’).
From the article ‘Civil Disobedience’ in Bostonia magazine:
Edit: *Susan, not Laura.
Susan Slilverman is also Sarah Silverman’s sister?
Yes. Per Wikipedia”
“Susan Silverman is a Reform rabbi and the sister of comedians Laura Silverman and Sarah Silverman. In 1997 she and her husband Yosef Abramowitz co-authored the book Jewish Family and Life: Traditions…”
Mos’ def someone you want tooting that “Oh, youse and your privilege!” horn. :-s
Of course Ms. Silverman is privileged, but I believe that is beside the point. Many privileged people are very decent and have done much to assist the less privileged. What matters, I think, is the extent to which a privileged person’s views and actions are shaped or distorted by their privilege.
This issue arises, of course, in many different contexts. Donald Trump has long believed that the privileges of maleness, wealth and celebrity include license to sexually assault women with impunity. And he is to a large extent correct about that, in the practical sense (though of course not the ethical sense). His demented presidential bid is the only reason he is experiencing any discernible consequence for his decades of criminal sexual conduct.
On a different but not entirely unrelated note, when self-styled lefties or radicals suggest (as many have done, here and elsewhere) that maybe it would be cool if Trump burned everything down, thus hastening the Revolution of their dreams, they usually (though not always) expect their own privileges to protect them personally, while other less privileged folks suffer the consequences.
“Many privileged people are very decent and have done much to assist the less privileged. ”
What has Ms. Silverman done for the Palestinians? You know who I’m referring to; the people Israel is keeping in an open-air prison.
I have no idea what if anything she has done for Palestinians. Why do you ask?
I remember Susan Silverman as Spenser’s girlfriend in the popular series of detective novels by Robert Parker.
“I have no idea what if anything she has done for Palestinians. Why do you ask?”
I was wondering if your conscience is bothered by the on-going apartheid practiced by Jews …
It was a rhetorical thought; don’t loose any sleep.
At the end of the day, isn’t privilege just another word for a lack of empathy?
And doesn’t empathy require stepping out of whatever head-space one is in to recognize and acknowledge another’s situation?
So if a person’s views and actions are “shaped or distorted by their privilege” isn’t that just an acknowledgement that that person is lacking in knowledge of another’s situation, thus making them ignorant, often willfully so?
the political operatives will grind away at the forced choice relentlessly until Nov 8
after which they will retreat to their same old bars
I love your work and have commented accordingly numerous times, but I perceive some inconsistency between what you’ve written here and what you told Hayes. It’s certainly no surprise that he would suddenly or least recently begin admonishing sources possibly acting with nefarious intent, in this case the one(s) targeting his and his network’s candidate in the presidential race. And you argue cogently in your piece that a source’s motives don’t matter. Absolutely right.
Yet in your remarks to Hayes you concur with his assertion that the motivation does matter. You say, initially, “Yeah, so as you say, I think both are true. … ” And then you state that it’s “obviously” important to find out who the email hacker is and that that is “a separate story.” However, unless I missed it, you don’t make that point in your article.
I sense that you went a little easy on Hayes and, to my reading, you more strongly argue your principled position in this column. Don’t hold back on cable news, Glenn. I know the hosts typically have huge egos and, ironically, thin skin, but they and their audiences desperately need to hear your wisdom unvarnished.
I don’t think he was holding back. He said they’re both important. He also said, that who the source is is a separate story. And I think in this article he’s just talking about the principle of using the information regardless of the source.
Cheers :)
i find myself in surprising agreement with most of this piece, and just have two points for clarification:
1) you write as if it is obvious who is “powerful” and who isn’t. There are some people who obviously are powerful, Podesta and HRC among them. But there are many, many others who fall into a grey area–they look powerful from some angles, not powerful from others. Who decides whether or not they are so powerful that they don’t “deserve” privacy? Again and again, as I think you are sensitive to especially wrt some of the more recent leaks, Assange puts himself out there as the arbiter of this question. He isn’t. No one person can be or should be that.
2) Not unrelated to this: you write, “laws like FOIA requiring disclosure (including of emails) apply only to public officials but not to private citizens.” This is absolutely untrue. The vast number of those to whom FOIA (and/or, more importantly, the FOIA-like laws at the State level) applies are private citizens who happen to work for governments, agencies, or even contractors for governments and government agencies. As far as I know, an EPA clerk is a “private citizen” in every aspect of that phrase, and certainly not a “public official” (we usually reserve that term for the administrators of agencies). Public school teachers and university professors are private citizens, not public officials. Yet they are all subject to FOIA and FOIA-like laws. I think you must know this, but the fact that you mis-state it here so radically (in terms of the number of people to whom FOIA-like laws apply, only goes to show how important what I said in 1) is. Yet these individuals absolutely deserve privacy in almost every aspect of their lives, including many aspects of their engagement with their official duties. It cannot be up to unaccountable individuals like Assange who gets and does not get privacy. That is something like the canonical example of a governmental function.
Just regarding your 2nd point, your phrase ‘private citizens who happen to work for government…’ makes it sound almost accidental as to who their employer happens to be. When people say (or blame) the Government, it usually means politicians and officials – but it also happens to include everyone from Delta operators doing wet work at black sites, to a clerk at a DMV. No matter where you sit on that spectrum, you should not be putting anything in an email (or on paper) that you wouldn’t mind being aired in public after a freedom of information request is fulfilled. Want to be a private citizen at work? Use a hotmail account or your phone. Is it weird that many folks in private industry understand this better than public sector employees? If you are paid by taxpayers to do your job then you should be accountable. Have you paid Assange anything? He gave it all to you for free! Meanwhile, public school teachers may be engaged in petty email smear campaigns instead of focusing on educating our children, and I don’t think they deserve to be shielded from scrutiny in that. Thanks anyway :)
Wikileaks reveals it was the Clintons who started pushing the “Obama is Muslim” meme.
https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/7860
That is perfectly fucking vile. I continue to know there is no benevolent god or this all would have been leaked last February-March.
You and Virginia should really hook up. She’s off to find the six bankers in the mountain that are secretly running the world. Bring long johns, it gets cold in the Alps.
Looking through your link, this is the closest thing I find:
and it does not say “Obama is Muslim”.
Furthermore, maybe you should read the link again and figure out what that message it is really about. Then you could explain what you think that statement really means.
Please supply Virginia and Mona a link to Brietbart, or maybe Sean Hannity show. These two brilliant reporters are on the case.
You can’t possibly have convinced yourself that that was about something OTHER than tainting Obama with Muslim-ness.
It doesn’t help Clinton’s case to deny FACTUAL criticisms; it only devalues your opinion.
The 2008 Clinton campaign’s desperation turned undeniably racist, as she saw the nomination that she felt so entitled to, slipping away from her.
The fact that TRUMP IS FAR, FAR WORSE, doesn’t mean that Clinton isn’t a monster; what it means is that American ‘democracy’ is rigged to offer the peasantry nothing more than a choice between two monsters.
And a monster she is.
That’s been thoroughly debunked… Go back, back, back into conspiracy land. Isn’t there a big mountain somewhere with six Jews running the world? Maybe you can find it and gives us a heads up when you find it. I think it’s in Switzerland. Don’t forget your parka, it might be a bit chilly.
Ooh, touched a nerve, did I? In all of your posts you sound like a bitter, hate-filled partisan. Not a happy person, are you? But then fanatics seldom are.
Have a link to where “that’s been thoroughly debunked…”?
And what’s with the mountains’ theme in two of your posts? Did you just finish watching “Heidi” or “Sound of Music?”
That fact sure doesn’t seem to bother the celebrity POTUS eh?
Lickspittle indeed.
They are all scum,this administration.
Anyone see the Wiki about how the FBI and SD colluded over trying to hide a Benghazi classified email,which they tried to make unclassified?
If the people only knew.,but of course our MSM doesn’t want US to.
Its a fix,indeed,and hopefully we’ll unfix it.
Clinton and her people are a machiavellian cesspool of dishonest neoliberal hacks
Just go see Zaid Jilani’s new leaked-email story: Aide Planted Anti-Bank Comments in One Paid Clinton Speech to Throw Reporters Off the Scent
Journalistic ethics, like all ethics, must be taught. Everyone needs a discretionary level of rules and protections which won’t do away with common law or risk basic dignity. There’s a certain presumption of morality among journalists. Journalists are not saints who lead exceptional moral lives as flawless human beings. Yet, they are throwing stones at glass houses (and all kinds of houses) every single day.
So there’s always value in observing available, sane lawful protections for the public. As much as law schools try to try cases as public opinion, you cannot make a journalist a complete arbiter of law or an ethics professional. They should be reaching out for each other.
There is nothing in the current trove of emails that come even remotely close to the important revelations found in “the Iraq and Afghanistan war logs and U.S. diplomatic cables”.
For the most part, this release is a non-story, which is why Greenwald is writing about media responses to them rather than their contents. He published 3 articles related to those emails: only one refers to emails, but in it he writes:
“All presidential campaigns have their favorite reporters, try to plant stories they want published, and attempt in multiple ways to curry favor with journalists. These tactics are certainly not unique to the Clinton campaign ” (in other words, nothing special, or especially depraved, about Clinton here).
The second one is critical of the attempt to discredit the authenticity of the emails, and the third exposes media hypocrisy.
In short, the attempt to sensationalize the contents of this release is ill-conceived, and Greenwald is aware of that.
The 3 articles:
https://theintercept.com/2016/10/09/exclusive-new-email-leak-reveals-clinton-campaigns-cozy-press-relationship/
https://theintercept.com/2016/10/11/in-the-democratic-echo-chamber-inconvenient-truths-are-recast-as-putin-plots/
https://theintercept.com/2016/10/13/on-wikileaks-journalism-and-privacy-reporting-on-the-podesta-archive-is-an-easy-call/
@ Nir
Nice try dimbulb. Whether you find Glenn’s reporting, or the other TI journalists to be “sensationalism”, most of us find nothing sensational, or even new, about them except to demonstrate with proof the ridiculous levels of duplicity practiced by those seeking our highest political offices. And that has value in itself.
Glenn addressed precisely this predictable inane attempt at deflection in his article above, in case you failed to read it:
Nir would enlighten us:
That’s nice. And?
Have you told that to NYT, WaPo, and the myriad other outlets publishing many stories about these emails?
Well, no. Greenwald is actually writing about, to quote him from above: “Hillary Clinton’s supporters will try to find ways to delegitimize all reporting that reflects negatively on her.” That is, he’s writing about the *supporters* of Hillary Clinton response to the releases.
Er, Nir, you are aware that Glenn Greenwald is not the only journalist at The Intercept, right? And you understand that some of the other Intercept journalists are also covering these emails, right? [rolling eyes]
Greenwald on Chris Hayes was picking and distorting data, like the bit about Hillary needing public and private persona… Take that out of context and you start to understand why there is such a thing as a grand jury… the rubes shall distort…
Nir, is your handle short for Neera Tanden?
Who is Neera Tanden?
Wikileaks is choosing sides, though. Look at their twitter feed, read the sentences and phrases taken out of context from the emails, and observe the images paired with the phrases. Wikileaks clearly has an agenda, where in the past it seemed like they just presented the information and let people decide for themselves what it all meant.
@ Nick
So what if Wikileaks is “choosing sides”? About half the major circulation newspapers in America “choose sides” in every election by endorsing one candidate for another in every single election from the very mouths of their editorial boards.
Isn’t Wikileaks entitled to “choose sides” in precisely the same way if it wants? Now if it was “choosing sides” by passing off forged documents, then that’s a different argument. But “choosing sides” is done in every election by most journalistic endeavors since the founding of America.
I don’t know if Wikileaks are “choosing sides” but I’ve seen no indication that they’ve chosen the side of Trump just because they were handed a pile of emails which expose in black and white that Hillary Clinton, and her campaign, are fantastically dishonest and disingenuous.
But as for this from the commenter Nick: “in the past it seemed like they [Wikileaks] just presented the information and let people decide for themselves what it all meant.”
No, Wikileaks has never been a robotic, generic organization pretending to be “objective.”
See their introduction to the “Collateral Murder” video. Notice that the title alone tells you that they have an opinion to express and that they are quite willing to express it.
https://collateralmurder.wikileaks.org/
@ Kitt
Good point. I’m pretty sure if they had a bunch of Trump, RNC or other GOP affiliated organization e-mails they’d be publishing them too.
Nevertheless, I have no problem with newspapers or whatever choosing sides so long as they declare it openly and rely upon legitimate arguments and/or arguments based on accurate and unforged documents.
Personally, I think almost ever statement or correspondence not purely of a personal or family nature made by any politicians should be archived and subject to public disclosure laws, except those that legitimately implicate “national security” (but first we’d have to have a democratic debate and laws passed to clearly define what the words “national security” in fact mean, and not the ridiculous system of over-classification of everything officials of our government do or say.)
Wikileaks has always had an agenda. Hillary Clinton has made it clear she is viscerally opposed to both Wikileaks and Julian Assange, and their agenda.
Wikileaks, in turn, and for good reason, detests Hillary Clinton.
Of all the accusations leveled at any given journalist and/or media group, the agenda one really takes the cake. It’s just boggling that people spew that.
Have the people leveling this load of lament truly been living in some sort of fantasy world where media everywhere toe some sort of imaginary line of purity? Can they even name just one organization that fits into that imaginary mold??
Sad to see Correct the Record has found The Intercept’s comment section. Is no place safe from CtR any longer????
Not since they tripled their budget…
They better start investing in better anti-defenestration armor.
@ Mona …
Maybe I misread or misunderstood your initial comment, bah. I agree with this:
I’ve been watching how the Red Queen’s minions have divided up the task of insuring her ascension to power and how and who they are targeting. The first group are the true believers, grassroots Clintoniods pushing identity into a cult of personality and ignoring with vigor any negative suggestion that their Queen or their intentions are anything but pure.
The second and smaller group consist of the Queen’s Hounds, attack dogs who not only gnaw on Trump incessantly but turn on any poor citizen who questions Her Majesty’s fitness to rule or the cult that she has created.
The last group is very small and mostly elite professionals with experience manipulating even the better educated class of voters they target. They also have reputations as reformers and don’t shy from exploring the Red Queens mistakes and her parties transgressions but never too deeply or in any way that actually condemns her or her Party for what she truly is. They usually include a slur attack on Trump as unfit to lead leaving the reader to accept their logic of, you have no choice but the Red Queen. I call this select group the Artful Dodger Clintonites who many people seem to believe are independent voices while their true agenda bubbles just below the surface.
Glenn should run for President. You’re a beast.
We need better trolls than Karen & Jimmy. Then again, Revise the Record is probably getting what they paid for at $12.00/hour, paraphrased:
If you don’t vote for Hillary Clinton (and not Donald Trump either) you are nevertheless directly and/or by implication a “narcissistic lemming”, “white”, “privileged”, hate “poor people” and “minorities” (even those of us who aren’t voting for her who happen to be minorities and aren’t rich), are “misogynists”, “no different than Trump” (even those of us who aren’t “white” like Trump), . . . and you toss that word salad together with the implication that a failure to vote for Hillary Clinton will result in Donald Trump “extra-judicially jailing Hillary Clinton” and possibly theoretically conspiratorially and despite every institutional lever in our government auguring against that theoretical conspiracy ever happening, “execute his political opponent” Hillary Clinton one of the most powerful connected rich white politicians in the world (which is laughable).
And then you cap it off with the total non-sequitur, “get in your down and out Subaru and head down to Whole Foods and take whatever organic purified crap that you’ve been living off of. It must not be good for your brain.”
I mean I didn’t know that the “privileged” drive “down and out Subarus” but can still afford to shop at one of the most expensive grocery stores in the country, Whole Foods. Similarly, that “organic” and “purified”, which generally denotes a process of removal of impurities, are really not uttered in the same sentence as the entire point of “organics” is that they don’t contain pesticides, insecticides or anything other than natural constituents which aren’t really “impurities” in the first instance but a natural organic part of the foodstuffs. Finally, you tie off that non-sequitur by suggesting organic food is bad for people, and the logical inference being that processed food with impurities is good for your brain. I mean did Revise the Record get its minimum wage employees on loan from Monsanto, because seriously, nobody but a Monsanto employee could ever construct such a ridiculous insult.
Seriously, we need better trolls around this place.
I mean, given that illogical multiple comment screed, I’d say my only “privilege” is in being able to distinguish that your a hyper partisan moron, who doesn’t understand the first thing about persuading people to your point of view, which presumably, is that it is better and the more moral choice to vote for Hillary Clinton over Donald Trump (which some will and some won’t, but it will likely have ABSOLUTELY FUCKING NOTHING TO DO WITH ANY COMMENT Karen or Jimmy have posted here, ever).
Now the fuckwitted Revise the Record troll, Karen, appears to be saying that Shaun King is a black Trump supporter. I want her to either confirm or deny — I’m gonna send the link to Shaun.
I am a private citizen, jerk, and you’re a liar, Mona and you just got caught lying. You must be working for Donald Trump, nothing else could explain it. You should be ashamed of yourself. I have nothing to do with the Clinton campaign. Nothing. Your lies are just like Trump’s though, repeat the same thing over and over and eventually you’ll start to believe it.
Karen: I will keep asking until you answer. Are you saying that BLM activist and journalist, Shaun King, is a black Trump supporter?
That’s what you seemed to be saying when I posted this:
So, Karen, what is your response to Shaun King’s facts about Hillary and the vile David Brock, if not that King is a black Trump supporter?
(Pretty much all of Hillary Clinton’s paid trolls are “private citizens,” Karen. You really have no grasp of what constitutes: a public figure, a private citizen, privacy, or transparency.)
“I am a private citizen, jerk, and you’re a liar”
C’mon Karen, don’t mince words. Tell us what you REALLY think.
Then again, Revise the Record is probably getting what they paid for at $12.00/hour,
ROFL. To be honest, I could care less whether or not they’re part of the whole Correct The Record abortion. There are just as many misguided, ignorant spittle-spewers who are unpaid. Don’t get me wrong, it’s good for folks to be aware of that possibility. As my husband, who you know actually lived in a Soviet-controlled country, has noted repeatedly, Americans really don’t understand propaganda even though they are likely some of the most highly propagandized people in the world due to the corruption of our media institutions.
I didn’t know that the “privileged” drive “down and out Subarus” but can still afford to shop at one of the most expensive grocery stores in the country, Whole Foods.
It’s all about the priorities darlin’. And brand loyalty. If we keep our old Subarus once we’ve paid them off – another disgusting trait of lefties everywhere, we pay our bills – then we can afford to spend a bit more to keep our aging bodies GMO-free. They hate us for our ability to budget.
Please don’t tell her I grow my own vegetables using organic seeds, canning and drying them so my family can eat healthy food year-round. We wouldn’t want the ensuing conniption fit to cause any permanent damage. :-s
I don’t really think they are paid by Revise the Record, because if that’s as good a script as a Clinton campaign affiliated organization can come up with, and Karen’s tone and demeanor, is what they are paying for it is totally ineffective.
I just think it’s a good short hand for most around here that simply implies it is “bad propaganda”.
If Karen actually believes her arguments are in some way compelling, or that running down your potential allies in the way she does is effective to change minds, then she really has a screw loose and understands nothing about human beings or how to persuade people.
Now maybe she is just venting her frustration that not “everyone” on the globe feels compelled to vote for Hillary Clinton. But hey here’s a newsflash, Karen and Jimmy, that’s democracy.
If you want to start venting your spleen against true privileged misogynist pricks who don’t like minorities, start with the 40% of your fellow citizens who are actually voting for Donald Trump (or any other Republican who is supporting him in Congress or otherwise), they are 100% more complicit in the rise and perpetuation of misogyny and minority hate than 99.9% of Greenwald’s “lemming” followers.
I actually find the level of hyperbole and sturm and drang that is part of this election highly amusing.
Trump, without a doubt, possesses all of the horrible qualities and traits folks are attributing. There isn’t any (or much) dispute about that anywhere in America. But here’s the thing, no America citizen is obligated to vote “defensively”, or “strategically”, or for the “lesser of evil” or for anybody other than who they choose to vote for, for whatever reason. That’s democracy. The thing I find most amusing about the Karen’s of the world is that they think they can assault someone’s character without knowing them or shame them into voting how the Karen’s of the world think they should vote. In fact, I find that mindset hilarious because it demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of human psychology and American politics, which is that in a free pluralistic nation there will always be different motivations and values at play when one decides to cast a vote for any particular candidate.
If that wasn’t the case the voting in America would simply be some meaningless social act aimed at confirming the view of the majority. Now the counter argument is that “voting” is an exercise of political power, en masse, which I would agree. But if you can’t compel your purported “coalition” of allies to stick together in solidarity to exercise that power, then really you should start to consider why that might be the case–Democratic or Republican whichever the case may be.
But for my part, people like Karen and Jimmy are tilting at windmills trying to guilt or shame most of the folks around here to vote one way or another. It simply doesn’t work. For better or worse the people around here, and there are many differing opinions on almost every issue, but most here hold pretty strong values and opinions and are motivated by them, not some anonymous goof on the Internet running them down telling them how much of a misogynist pig they are for not voting for Hillary Clinton. I mean that’s about the most laughably stupid and counterproductive means of attempting to persuade anybody I’ve ever heard of.
Now if it’s just a vent or rant born of frustration, then vent away I say. Just do it in a more entertaining and clever way if you want to have a good old fashioned internet comments section dust up (which I of course enjoy from time to time as I find them highly amusing).
“there will always be different motivations and values at play when one decides to cast a vote for any particular candidate”
Exactly. I once had a person tell me that their decision for how they were voting was based on the hairstyle of the candidate’s wife. No sh*t.
I just had to laugh. But people vote how they vote.
Good summary Ron.
I don’t really think they are paid by Revise the Record, because if that’s as good a script as a Clinton campaign affiliated organization can come up with, and Karen’s tone and demeanor, is what they are paying for it is totally ineffective.
Yep. She’s the PUMA version of bernbart but with better diction and less wine consumption.
Yeah I kinda miss bernbart. She was a real piece of work. I’ve never seen anybody on the interwebs attempt to sell and argument by employing the “well my husband is a very successful attorney from Berkeley” therefore, ipso facto, QED my argument is well founded.
She was another person who seemed pathologically incapable of the simplest task like linking or blockquoting her purported sources.
She’ll probably believes ACA is still a viable stepping stone to Medicare for all. Which of course is laughable, at least under a Hillary Clinton administration of Rubinite fuck sticks and greed heads who shouldn’t be running a lemonade stand much less making important decisions about the flavor of America’s political economy or its health care delivery policies.
Look until a critical mass of Americans get their brains wrapped around the indisputable reality that “for-profit health insurance” provides zero value to health care consumers, and delivers no actual health care, and is a rent-seeking function that needs to be outlawed, then I don’t know what to tell people except–except to continue to get fucked and watch your health care costs rise.
your disdain for bernbart was and is suspiciously passionate
frankly i was and am quite jealous, however as a non-lawyer i didnt and dont have the scratch for the super-hot matrons who did and do live in marin county
P.S. to rrheard and Mona
I actually think her comment regarding Prius with the preprinted Obama sticker on the bumper puts her more into the category of those bitter PUMA rejects from the 2008 election. They were desperate then and are even more so now. So much so that they make comments like that while parading around in their holey cloaks of righteousness regarding privilege, racism and misogyny.
It’s kinda interesting to see what pops out as the cloak gets increasingly threadbare.
Who better to spend some of the $6.3 million troll money on than PUMAs? Jimmy referred to Karen as his wife. Now, who knows if that’s true, but it’s clear they are reciting from the same script.
And they appear to be on different shifts. I really think they’re part of the paid legions.
Anything’s possible, but if that’s what they’re paying for then I say let them waste their money. ;-}
there is no money in trolling … its a labor of love
Yeah it really is mystifying to me. Looks like Ms. Clinton is on her way to a double digit wipe-out of Trump at this point (and that was always my best guess all along). And unless Clinton’s camp is seeing some sort of internal polling that is suggesting the race is much closer than it appears to be, at this point I don’t understand all the spittle and fury from folks like Karen and Jimmy.
Hillary Clinton will win going away regardless of what the 3-10% of Stein/Johnson/Vermin Supreme voters do. And they’ll get precisely who they believe they want in office. More power to em, because that’s democracy and I was prepared to live and survive either a Trump or Clinton presidency.
I will continue to vote largely Democratic Party at the local and state level, and notwithstanding Kurt Schrader, and some of Wyden’s faults. But I’m lucky to live in a state where my government, both state and the federal cohort in Congress, by and large reflects my priorities and values. Not entirely, and if there was anybody viable to run against Wyden, I’d probably vote against him.
But Oregon’s “democrats” are a far cry from the vast majority of “democrats” at the national level. I think that is changing somewhat, but you don’t accelerate that change by acquiescing to some sort of shit choice like Hillary Clinton as your “liberal/progressive” standard-bearer. You simply don’t. And there is so much evidence that she is what she is at base–a center-right Democrat, just like President Obama. Or “centrists” or “moderates” if you prefer. Or “pragmatists” even though I think calling American politicians “pragmatists” means you don’t really understand the history of that word although it is one attributable to an American, Charles Sanders Pierce.
The pragmatic maxim:
i will vote dem down the line in kansas which won’t mean shit but i would vote trump for gov of ks just to get rid of brownback. our kids would probably get a better education. perhaps trump should start small as he could win in kansas. is my comment pragmatic enough?
And unless Clinton’s camp is seeing some sort of internal polling that is suggesting the race is much closer than it appears to be, at this point I don’t understand all the spittle and fury from folks like Karen and Jimmy.
Well, doG only knows what the Jimmies and Karens of the world think they’re defending but, on the higher level of people like Neera Tanden I think it’s this,
I think that is changing somewhat, but you don’t accelerate that change by acquiescing to some sort of shit choice like Hillary Clinton as your “liberal/progressive” standard-bearer. You simply don’t.
The Sanders challenge was regarded as a suckerpunch from a left that should sit down, shut the fuck up and kowtow to their elders and betters (in their not-so-humble opinion). They made that demonstrably clear during the primary and have continued to spit at the young folks ever since.
The asshole-puckering those folks suffered while waiting for him to endorse Clinton – as inevitable as it was – is probably still undergoing surgical correction.
The best thing that could come from Clinton surging in the polls as a result of Trump’s inability to control his amygdala would be if it frees people up from their own fears of what his tiny hands might do enough for them to start realizing what shit choices they’ve actually been given by the two-party kabuki. If there’s less pressure to vote Hillary because of Trump’s Hindenburgesque self-immolation, then more voters may turn to the 3rd parties, giving them more ammunition for getting onto the big stage in future elections.
All I can say to your certainty is the polls are bogus,unless you have serious faith in serial liars.
We shall see on Nov.8,won’t we?
The lie was gold, it was rose
Karen was taking sips of it through her nose
And I wish I could get back there, someplace back there
Smiling at the bullshit she would fake
Watching Karen do crystal meth will lift you up until you break
She won’t stop, She won’t calm down
Karen keeps stock with a tick-tock rhythm, She lied for the $buck$
And then she fucked up, She took the bullshit that she was given
and then started slinging it again, and slinging it again
And that’s when I said…
How do we get her back there, to the trailer park where she fell asleep being a DNC tool.
How do I get myself back to the place where you said…
I want something else, to get me through this
Semi-Privledged Kinda Life.
Basically the truth doesn’t matter anymore to Republicans or Democrats – all truth is ‘partisan.’ Facts don’t matter. Just insults, ass-covering, slander, blaming, race & class baiting, authoritarianism, patriotism – various forms of bullying. What this shows is the break-down of the two-party system.
For those of us still on the reality train, we watch that ‘crash’ with pleasure.
Publishing and amplifying this illegal smear campaign on behalf of Donald Trump might indeed be in the public interest if you’re a privileged, white elitist. Indeed a case, though a very weak one, could be made for that if you don’t believe don’t heed the warnings of the nuclear offices that Trump should be nowhere near the button or if you don’t believe in global warming etc. But if you’re a poor, minority who is one of the targets of this violence inciting demagogue, if you in your narcissistic, misogynistic rage consider them as part of the public. NOPE! Not a chance.
So, what we have here is snow white, one percent privilege, no different than the malignant narcissist, Mr. Trump, who is using these emails to his unfair advantage and attempt to destroy and attempt to extra-judicially jail and even execute his political opponent.
But if you’re a poor, minority who is one of the targets of this violence inciting demagogue, […] So, what we have here is snow white, one percent privilege,
There is nothing quite so privileged as a misguided western woman who advocates for a candidate who has already caused brown-skinned women in places like Libya and Honduras inestimable suffering over the candidate who causes suffering in women of her own class and upbringing.
They are BOTH shit candidates. But thank you for highlighting your own circumstances, as well as your profoundly privileged ignorance of how checks and balances in government work, for us.
p.s.
https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/726092025133670401
Just FYI, Karen is one of two Revise the Record trolls, the other being “Jimmy” aka “Jim.” They post the same themes and memes from the script they are given. (They appear to be on shifts here.)
The words “white” and “privilege” copiously appear in their stuff in many contexts. As do “narcissist” and “trust fund.” Sanders is always the “White Messiah.”
Come November 8 Revise the Record will stop spending $6.3 million on paid trolls, and then so will Karen and Jimmy stop.
Your ignorance, Mona, speaks volumes. I don’t work for the Clintons and how would you know that if I did? I happen to have a different opinion than yours. I know that’s hard for a lemming like you to believe. I’m an independent thinker. You like the Trump crowd are full of conspiracy theories and you follow Glenn like a true lemming. Narcissism is indeed very attractive to a certain type.
Say Karen, I think this is great. It’s written by Black Lives Matter activist, Shaun King: Hillary Clinton camp now paying online trolls to attack anyone who disparages her online
Now, Karen, I gotta wonder how much you keep up with the news? Cuz Karen, you referred to this documented fact of Hillary’s paid trolls — of which you are clearly one — as among my “conspiracy theories.”
Karen, are you so busy on the job that you haven’t read about your employer and thus realized we all know! We all know you are taking direction from that vile slug, David Brock, who was behind the mud-slinging of Anita Hill. Some friends you and Hillary have there!
Wow, watching the footage of Trump rally, my husband were convinced that the Blacks for Trump signs were being held up by white people. But then we were wrong, the crowd shifted slightly and we could see two blacks each holding up a sign. Right behind Trump, too. So, our opinion changed entirely. We now realize, Mona, that you’re right. Black really are coming out for Trump in record numbers. How stupid of us to not realize that. Thank God Trump had those black people back there to teach us the truth.
Karen, are you saying Shaun King (!!!) is a Trump supporter? Be clear, because if you are I’m going to email journalist King — with a link — that a Revise the Record person is saying that.
It must have been painful to see your leader get his butt handed to him by Hayes and then to babble nonsense. Ouch!!! Let’s go back to the video tape, as Warner Wolf used to say.
Chris: …You’ve got the climategate hack, in which random climate scientists are
hacked to discredit their work. And now this. And it seems like the press
has a different role to play, because it feels like
there`s an alley-oop being set up in which the press puts the ball through
the hoop to achieve the aim of an actor who is up to something that is
nefarious.
Greenwald’s puerile denials and then WHAM, Hayes comes in out of nowhere and slams him with this question, brilliantly, and like the Donald took the bait when Hill did it, so does Greenwald:
HAYES: Wait. But then let me ask you this question, because I think this
is an important one, does John Podesta have a right to privacy?
GREENWALD: I think he has a lesser right to privacy than the average
person on the street, by virtue of the fact – he`s one of the most
powerful people on the planet, Chris.
WOW! Of course, talk about a hook shot from the left. Greenwald tried to walk that back and call it, not privacy. But anyone with a brain could see what he’d put his foot into. So, some people in this society have a lesser right to privacy than others. Wow, let’s go down that road and see if we don’t end up getting molested by none other than Donald Trump. Yuk! No wonder he doesn’t practice law anymore and no wonder people like yourself are hanging around like pilot fish. He’s got the reasoning powers of Donald Trump. Oh, no, give him a bit more than that. Mike Pence.
Poor Mona. If Trump loses, maybe there will be help groups for you, the Trumpkins and the faux left crusties… somewhere between the Whole Foods parking lot and the Walmart one.
So, some people in this society have a lesser right to privacy than others.
That’s actually true. Public officials – even public personalities – give up some privacy rights when they become, um, public actors.
It’s supported by a LOT of legal precedent. Just is, and no amount or volume of grown-woman tantrum can make that truth disappear.
Transparency, idiot, is a very different thing than privacy. Go back to Trump University. I think you need a refresher or two or were you short on funds for that last bit of tuition. Actually Mona here is a granny and since the TU administrators were taught to encourage student to raid grandma’s piggybank for the balance, maybe you could convince Mona to cough up the rest for you. Then you’ll learn that, no, every single person is protected under the constitution, privacy and transparency are very, very different things and it’s not up to an unbalanced zealots whose privacy can be invaded and whose can’t. Tax returns for a candidate=transparency.
Bingo! Good job, Karen! Yes they are; one might say they are polar opposites.
The Freedom of Information Act exists to render public officials’ communications transparent; they are no longer allowed to claim they expect privacy in their communications.
By the same token, public figures are rightly made more transparent by journalists, and rightly denied more of their privacy, than are non-public figures.
Now that’s the sort of genius one would expect from a brilliant ex-corporate lawyer. You’re a dime a dozen. The amazing thing about your incredible thesis is that one political party has not simply filed for FOIA and gotten the playbook of the other party. Hey, why not. Reminds me of Trump’s attorney–What polls? …. Ah, all of them? Drool… drool… how did you get into law school, Mona, if not by privilege. Sort of like how did Donald Trump get where he’s gotten without his 300 million dollar trust fund?
Tax returns for a candidate=transparency.
I’m good with that, even though I have no idea what that has to do with future governing. With respect to the latter, Clinton’s emails are much more informative as they are relevant to what she will actually do in office, as opposed to the lies she’s feeding us publicly.
Both candidates should be removed. Neither should ever be put close to the levers of power.
Pedinska – “Both candidates should be removed.”
Hi Pedinska. The above is an interesting proposal. Under what authority and by what procedure should they be removed?
Don’t think she meant it literally, except to the extent they shouldn’t have been the nominees in the first instance.
But I’ll answer your question(s):
Q. By what authority?
A. Divine law of Yahweh
Q. By what procedure?
A. By a majority of Americans in all 50 states coming to their senses on election day and casting their Yahweh given votes for Vermin Supreme.
Short of that “procedure” I’d suggest keep on snooping into both Trump and Clinton’s work related e-mails until we find something that is an impeachable offense and then put it in the hands of Congress. With Clinton there is likely nothing, but with Trump I’d bet there’d be something in there.
I mean who doesn’t like a good impeachment hearing on CSPAN for about 3 weeks. Way better than Survivor or The Apprentice.
I used to actually kind of like “The Apprentice” for reasons that are unclear to me, though I got bored with it eventually.
Pedinska generally chooses her words with great care, so I was intrigued by her suggestion that the 2 major party candidates “should be removed” (which seems to urge some sort of immediate action and is very different from merely saying the parties selected bad candidates).
Pedinska generally chooses her words with great care, so I was intrigued by her suggestion that the 2 major party candidates “should be removed”
Look, gator, I’m human and that means I sometimes get exasperated.
The system sucks donkey balls – or elephant sack, if that is your preference. The voters are repeatedly lied to, condescended to and mislead by both parties. People are increasingly frustrated and angered by this.
I am in no way advocating any sort of armed uprising, though tar, feathers and stocks where I can unload some rotten tomatoes would be a nice stress-reliever. How long do you think this sort of unaccountable bullshit can go on before people resort to something more because they have been denied unobstructed and truly democratic means of taking action?
Don’t play fucking gotcha games with me gator. It’s beneath you. Or, at least, it used to be before this election.
TMZ needs t relocate to washington DC. we need more poop. to hell with hollywood .
Karen, what Glenn said is completely true! Is it that your script doesn’t tell you how to handle this fact other than with misdirected mockery?
Well, anyway, Karen, John Podesta does, in fact, enjoy a lesser right to privacy than non-public figures.
This is an utterly non-controversial, conventional fact; Christ Hayes hasn’t been to law school, but even so, as a journalist it’s a bit shocking Glenn’s friend Chris didn’t know this. As Glenn correctly set forth above (my emphasis):
Geez,Karen, this is all pretty fundamental!
Give me a break. Your hatred for Hillary blinds you to a guy who is already endangering the entire world. Your hatred makes you, like Greenwald and the rest of the flock, sift through data points looking for “facts” to back up your silly point. A four year old can see through this, “she did it too, teacher,” and in the end, “she’s just as bad as he is,” are the words of another malignant narcissist promoting the elite white way. Go back to your white American faux left world.
Give you a break? lol.
Berta Cáceres family called to remind you what it’s like to lose wives, mothers, sisters, daughters and, in her specific case, a midwife and social activist who took in and cared for refugees from El Salvador.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berta_C%C3%A1ceres#Early_life
Fuck you and your faux concern about snow white, one percent privilege.
I love your last line after doing exactly what I said you would: cherry pick “facts” to support your idiotic claims. And if you’ve been in public service enough, just think how good that cherry picking will go.
I think fuck is on your mind because you’re unconsciously supporting a true molester. That’s certainly what Dr. Freud would say.
At long last, Karen has finally admitted that I am supplying facts. Pertinent facts, I might add. And at least as informative about how Clinton’s actions impact unprivileged women of color around the world as the facts that Donald Trump likes to look at underage (mostly white) women.
It’s a wonder the latter creates more fear in you than the former because, while you’ll never be the subject of her decisions to ruin countries all over the world, you’re also not likely to be groped by the Talking Yam either.
Priorities. You go girl.
That’s certainly what Dr. Freud would say.
ROFL! Our resident paragon of the virtues of white womanhood and trumpeter of Trumpian woman-hating factoids resorts to……Freud.
[snort!}
“…cherry pick “facts” …”
There is an avalanche of bloody gruesome facts describing Mrs. Clinton her career – no need of cherry picking. She is a war criminal and war profiteer. These two qualifications indicate a psychopaths. And a psychopath she is: “We came, we saw, he died ….ha. ha…” She is a stain on humanity.
Do not forger the birth defects of the newborns in Fallujah – they are the true legacy of Bush/Clinton subhuman decisions. There was of course a powerful pushing towards the innovation of the Middle East from Wolfowitz, the idiotic Kristol and Feith, and other Israel-firsters. At least Trump is for America First, whereas the Choice of Wall Street believes that her first priority is Israel.
Every president in the last 50 years has “the drips” from fucking south america and Clinton will get a case too.
Is there any other politician that is so much in cahoots with Saudis as Clinton? (9/11, Karen? Do you remember who funded the whole affair?) Perhaps only Bush the Lesser used to be closer while giving wet kisses to Saudi princes. No need to have a special hatred for Hilary – she is just a part of the war-profiteering group. Could you’d refute the well known fact that Clinton is a choice of Wall Street, the darling of weapon-manufacturers, and a “chosen one” for Israel-firsters? Come on. The Lobby is beyond itself by propping the sickly, repulsive, corrupt Mrs. Clinton. There are certain reasons for that: Clinton is for more US-approved wars in the Middle East to assure the lunatic project of Eretz Israel and to mollify oilmen.
BLOODY pipelines. Russia,iraq,and Syria build and bring us more bloody oil. we can’t pollute this planet more if we don’t have your bloody oil pipelines.
Checks and balances? You have to be kidding me? What the hell are you smoking? Do you think a psychopath gives a damn about those? Has ever shown respect for any person or institution? Get in your down and out Subaru and head down to Whole Foods and take whatever organic purified crap that you’ve been living off of. It must not be good for your brain.
Checks and balances? … Do you think a psychopath gives a damn about those?
She certainly didn’t when she was Secretary of State:
Five years after Gaddafi, Libya torn by civil war and battles with Isis
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/16/libya-gaddafi-arab-spring-civil-war-islamic-state
We came, we saw, he died. lol. — Hillary Clinton on Gaddafi
So funny.
You have the same, faux liberal arugula munching take on Libya without the slightest understanding of why that action was undertaken. It’s like going out and buying the Prius with the preprinted Obama sticker on the bumper. No, it wasn’t the criminal war of Iraq and no, it wasn’t the criminal war of Afghanistan. It was intended to save lives. Period. If it failed, that’s another matter.
Karen: I will keep asking until you answer. Are you saying that activist-journalist, Shaun King, is a black Trump supporter?
faux liberal arugula munching
I actually hate arugula. Too bitter. But I have some really nice organic kale I’d be happy to share with you.
It’s like going out and buying the Prius with the preprinted Obama sticker on the bumper.
I thought I had a Subaru? Either way, no Obama bumper sticker. Don’t worship politicians like you so I see no need to plaster my life with slavish adoration when I actually think healthy skepticism is in seriously short supply.
It was intended to save lives. Period. If it failed, that’s another matter.
So easy to brush aside the failures when they’re made by the person you unquestionably support. [see all references to white privilege above]
” It was intended to save lives. Period. If it failed, that’s another matter”
Another matter ehhh? If the imperial western destruction of what used to be the richest country in Africa (Libya) was genuinely intended to “save lives” under the neo-liberals phoney R2P pretext, then why have more civilian lives been lost, destroyed or displaced since Hillary/Obama’s “we came, we saw, he died” decimation of Libya?
And not only did “it fail”, it failed spectacularly: as it also has in every single bogus R2P middle east smash & grab (resources) “criminal wars” of conquest that neo-lib true-believers like yourself continuously justify from the comfort of your plebeian Volvo – on your way to your local Wal-Mart (which up until recently, your political deity HCR was an influential member of it’s board).
Oh..and knock off the stupid “your all Trump idiots ” shit when anyone disagrees with your jackbooted Heil Hitlery Crap. Your not even as good as some of the regular Israeli-first hasbarist that routinely populate these threads. Don’t they train/pay you enough at Camp Hill to at least try and be a teeny bit persuasive in your troll for pay screeds?
correct me if i a wrong but were there pictures of Gadaffi in the whitehouse smilling with the clintons or was that too early? i know he was a darling for some administrations. i had way tooooo much fun in the 60’s,70’s, and part of the 80’s and just can’t put a brain cell on it. refresh my memory.
Maybe not old Moammar, but she seemed to have no problems with photo ops and meetings with his son,
https://www.yahoo.com/news/what-clinton-left-out-about-her-history-with-180109258.html
Thank you for reminding us all of that little dollop of hypocrisy.
“illegal smear campaign”
As opposed to the legal ones, eh? Um…under which law makes reporting facts ‘illegal’ in your mind?
But I admit, I do really love this sentence of yours.
“Indeed a case, though a very weak one, could be made for that if you don’t believe don’t heed the warnings of the nuclear offices that Trump should be nowhere near the button or if you don’t believe in global warming etc.”
Which nuclear offices are these? The New York Offices at Trump Towers? But this comment is actually my favorite.
“using these emails to his unfair advantage and attempt to destroy and attempt to extra-judicially jail and even execute his political opponent.”
Wow, I wasn’t aware that an electronic transmission of data could actually kill a person. I thought only looks could kill.
Wow,the wasting of the mind,in all its pathetic glory.
Privileged people have a right to vote, too. So do white people. And people who drive Suburus. How else do you expect privileged people to keep their privilege? Geez.
You sound unbalanced. Not a happy person, are you? But then, fanatics seldom are.
Glenn, thanks for a great article and for your attempt to speak reason to MSNBC.
It’s interesting sifting through Clinton emails. You can find all sorts of stuff.
“Luce was given access to one senior official for the piece, but because Luce reported that National Security Adviser Jim Jones may be on his way out and that Obama’s national security team lacks a top tier strategic thinker — other than Obama himself perhaps — Luce has been pummeled by the White House who think he violated a quid pro quo deal to do a fluff story in exchange for access.”
and in the same email mentioning Pay for Play.
“Then you have to be on good behavior for a bit or be willing to deal, and then you get access.” “Axe” and “Gibbs” know who needs access to get their books pushed forward. They know who will pay for play — and are taking notes on who has been naughty and nice in their reporting. Edward Luce, Washington Bureau Chief of the Financial Times, who has been one of the few to resist the ‘you scratch my back and I’ll scratch yours’ offers from the White House has found himself in a dust-up with the White House for his recent article co-authored with Daniel Dombey”
Glenn, you should do a search on yourself. You’re mentioned a few times in Clinton emails. FYI.
https://wikileaks.org/clinton-emails/emailid/25601
Funny how sometimes we read something and the brain is immediately jolted to attention. When I read “…the motive of a source is utterly irrelevant in the decision-making process about whether to publish” I immediately thought, well, that absolves NYT, WaPo, et al. of any wrongdoing for lies published during the run up to the Iraq war. There is that old saying that the ship of state is the only vessel that leaks from the top. These days it seems the motive of every prime headline emerging from the beltway is disinformation and every source is anonymous. I for one wish journalists at media outlets spent more time questioning the motives of their sources and confirming the information before publication. The lack of discretion on the part of journalists regarding what is accurate and should be reported is a major component of the problem we readers have placing trust in journalists. When did the need to confirm a story before publication disappear? Oh, wait, I get it. It’s Wikileaks and, therefore, it must be the truth. Every claim of confirmation for Wikileaks information I’ve seen looks more like innuendo. Because someone had a surprised look on their face when a question was asked about content of a Wikileaks doc or a candidate began speaking publicly about a subject that was in a Wikileaks doc, this supposedly confirms the validity of Wikileaks documents. If it is basic journalism ethics to question the motives of a source before promising anonymity, then there is some relevance to the motive of a source, even if only dealing with how your source should be protected. Using adjectives like “utterly” is lazy and superfluous writing.
” I for one wish journalists at media outlets spent more time questioning the motives of their sources and confirming the information before publication. ”
So does Hillary! The truth hurts her.
No one from the email list is saying the emails are not authentic.
Hillary is a dishonest, horrid, person. How much longer can her liver hold out?
Yes,she looks sickly.I guess the drugs wore off from the first debate.
Her inner soul is sickly also,but fellow diseased are in lockstep.
Exactly. Thank you for that very accurate take on what is going on. You are much kinder than I am. It’s beyond idiotic to think at this point that we don’t know the source of these emails. Even if we didn’t, we know they were illegally obtained sometime in the spring, and we know they are being released right now for one reason only in order to sway the election. Of course, Greenwald will say, oh, we don’t know for sure where these came from, as if that actually matters. No, this is all playing to Mr. Greenwald’s self deception and the deception of the lemmings who follow him. Despite his above disclaimer about Trump, Greenwald would love to see Trump as president, all you need do is check out his twitter feed for the past years. It would prove that he’s right all along. Quite honestly, it’s as repulsive as Trump’s comments about minorities and women and the smirk on Greenwald’s face as he talks to a journalist who is far, far superior and smarter than he is, Chris Hayes, pretty much says it all.
chollie evinces great confusion:
Um, no. The enormous journalistic sin in the run-up to the Iraq war was the utter credulity outlets manifested toward power. Journalists are supposed be adversarial to power.
Publishing the Podesta emails — those many that have news value and are in the public interest — is to function as adversarial to power. Exactly as the media **did not** function vis-a-vis Iraq.
The rest of your comment was similarly confused, but I’ll stop with that correction, for now.
You haven’t corrected shit. You’re arguing a point that does not exist in my comment. I get it. You like to argue. Although you reprinted my statement, you apparently did not notice that I labeled what was published during the prelude to the 2003 Iraq War as lies. Do you believe I’m stating journalists who lie are credible? Greenwald’s statement is applicable to all journalists, credible or otherwise. Although he later uses Barstow’s claim that “What really matters to me is: Is this information real, and if so, is it newsworthy?”, the truth is that all journalists want to believe their sources are credible. Journalists have their own motives. They want the story. They want awards. Publishers have motives. They want the story. They want to make money. There is no mandate that journalists be adversarial toward power. You want to believe that. Fine. It’s not true. A mandate that all journalism be adversarial toward power is a figment of your imagination. Adversarial journalism exists, yes. It is by far not the only form of journalism. I am also not claiming that adversarial journalism isn’t useful. But there are still motives behind all of it. To deny that is to deny journalists are human. I’m sorry if you’re confused. Stay away from my comments if I confuse you. Go read something else. Or, to put it more succinctly, fuck off.
I hate the pompous tones of journalists. In my world you are not special and you keep no gate of mine that I cannot keep myself, especially given the proper rights in a truly free and democratic society that I wish to live in, but also in the corrupt one I play along with too.
The world is moving on and the place for journalists has ended because for every Jon Schwarz and Glenn Greenwald making an fairly sincere effort with few resources there are a hundred ignorant hacks pocketing a fat salary for some MegaMediaCorps dross rag to churn out propaganda, fluff and marketing spiel for their masters.
What makes a journalist, or a whistleblower for that matter, special? Only the special rights given to them by the very powers that will abuse their positions and perform corrupt acts in lop-sided and undemocratic societies. It is kind of them to provide a scattered yet diligent few, don’t you think?
If we see corruption we should all be able to act, we should all be protected by our fellows who seek truth, it should not be the rights of journalists and whistleblowers alone because even in the best situations these very people have vested interests in maintaining the status quo or manipulating the situation to suit them.
You were a lawyer, then a blogger, now you put yourself forward as a fully-fledged “journalist”. What changed to make you suddenly special? I am sure you have an answer, but to me you just help perpetuate the established order of secretiveness and opaqueness that pervades our governments and corporations. Shepherds necessitate Sheep AND Wolves.
We now have a situation where the richest and most powerful country in the world is secretly making trade deals to ensure its oil company and grocer and pharmacy get fatter and richer at the expense of not only its moronic domestic tax payer, but also those of foreign countries. In their world the Customer is no longer King, he is the Slave and Provider in a twisted game that they cannot allow to run to its logical conclusion because that means their own demise as there would be no one left to buy their products or pay taxes.
It is a world dominated by the greedy grabbing hand of tedious, one-dimensional corporations with no thought for anyone but their favoured shareholders and power-brokers hell-bent on grabbing it all before they keel over and drop deservedly dead.
A fucking GROCER and a PURVEYOR OF PETROL rule the fucking WORLD because fucking Americans are too dumb, fat and lazy to ensure that situation never occurred and no journalist or whistleblower did dick shit to avoid it.
I DO NOT WANT TO SIT AT HOME WONDERING IF A PATHETIC BUNCH OF JOURNALISTS IS GOING TO SAVE THE FUTURE FOR ME AND MY FRIENDS AND FAMILY.
I don’t think you understand this, Mr Greenwald. I admire what you do, but you are not my saviour and your actions do not go far enough because you see yourself as the Future of Journalistic Integrity, and that is a contradiction you fail to appreciate. Your constant attacks on the journalistic integrity of your rivals betrays where your intentions lie and they belittle the grand sacrifices made by the likes of Ed Snowden and Chelsea Manning.
Pulling punches is a trait I see in all the Americans I know, because you are all deeply scared of being hit back. That is your national weakness – a weakness common to all bullies and comfort-seekers.
But you keep writing your stories and telling yourself each night that You Are The Journalists With The Integrity The World Needs Right Now, I guess someone has to do it.
You seem upset. I’m just not sure who(m) with.
You make a really good point, thank you for articulating what I have been unable to.
Hasn’t the US government been implicated in making and distributing at least some of the ‘ISIS’ videos???
I think WikiLeaks holds keys towards deciphering the bizarreness of this presidential election:
https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/?file=strategy+GOP&count=50#searchresultep
Per the document itself:
“Operationalizing the Strategy
Pied Piper Candidates
There are two ways to approach the strategies mentioned above. The first is to use the field as a whole to inflict damage on itself similar to what happened to Mitt Romney in 2012. The variety of candidates is a positive here, and many of the lesser known can serve as a cudgel to move the more established candidates further to the right. In this scenario, we don’t want to marginalize the candidates, but make them more ‘Pied Piper’ candidates who actually represent the mainstream Republican Party. Pied Piper candidates include, but aren’t limited to:
Ted Cruz Donald Trump Ben Carson
We need to be elevating the Pied Piper candidates so that they are leaders of the pack and tell the press to [take] them seriously.”
The operative words, to be sure, being “tell the press to [take] them seriously.” Two paragraphs later the document concludes:
“In this regard, any information on scandals or ethical lapses on the GOP candidates would serve well. We won’t be picky.”
The document consistently assumes the press will be automatically compliant in taking the Democratic-selected Republican candidates “seriously” so as to only then sequentially, as ongoing media behavior is making clear, take “any information on scandals or ethical lapses on the [eventual] GOP candidate”–thus belatedly and therefore determinatively–seriously, all the while simultaneously diametrically (and therefore hypocritically) avoiding reporting on equivalent or more substantial Clinton scandals, especially those related to “Transparency & disclosure,” “Donors & associations,” “Management & business dealings,” (as the document in question itself oppositionally points out). Is it therefore convergence/coincidence/compliance that the MSM is evidently so closely following the “strategy and goals” outlined in the pro-Clinton document in question?
So where is your reporting on the actual information contained in the actual emails? You blow Glenn.
Have you missed the avalanche of stories produced on this site in the past week that dealt specifically with the emails? That’s truly strange. Here let me help with some titles:
Hillary Clinton Acknowledges Saudi Terror Financing in Hacked Email, Hinting at Tougher Approach
Hacked Emails Show Hillary Clinton Repeatedly Praised Wal-Mart in Paid Speeches
Behind Closed Doors, Hillary Clinton Sympathized With Goldman Sachs Over Financial Reform
Memo Shows What Major Donors Like Goldman Sachs Want From Democratic Party
Hillary Clinton Privately Pitched Corporations on “Really Low” Tax Rate for Money Stashed Abroad
Hillary Clinton Touted Her Record of Spreading Fracking in Secret, Paid Speeches
In Secret Goldman Sachs Speech, Hillary Clinton Admitted No-Fly Zone Would “Kill a Lot of Syrians”
Center for American Progress Advised Clinton Team Against $15 Minimum Wage, Leaked Emails Show
EXCLUSIVE: New Email Leak Reveals Clinton Campaign’s Cozy Press Relationship
All of those were found simply by going to The Intercept landign page and browsing down. All were written within the last five days. And the last one was authored by Greenwald himself.
You blow Glenn.
Really? Then how would you characterize your own incompetence at something as simple as scrolling?
Thank God for The Intercept! Your journalism is a breath of sane, fresh air.
Mr. Greenwald
Assange is using his powerful position as the arbiter of stolen documents to purposely influence a US election for political reasons. WikiLeaks may have initially published documents for the public good (adversarial journalism), but the organization has clearly become an advocate for one candidate in this election. Assange’s attempts to undermine the campaign of HRC even appear to take on a personal tone. This is a dangerous precedent which will only (further) undermine the credibility of journalists and the public perception of journalism.
“………It is, of course, understandable, or at least utterly predictable, that Hillary Clinton’s supporters will try to find ways to delegitimize all reporting that reflects negatively on her, while justifying and glorifying all reporting that reflects negatively on Republicans. Much of the furious reaction to WikiLeaks is about little other than that……..while Democrats who cheered them for their mass leaks about Bush-era war crimes now scorn them as an evil espionage tool of the Kremlin……..”
You are downplaying a significant accusation directed at WikiLeaks including by Intercept reporter Robert Mackey (“What Julian Assange’s War on Hillary Clinton Says About WikiLeaks”; August 6, 2016). In his article, Mackey refers to the WikiLeaks release of information stolen from the DNC as an “intervention in a US election”. Mackey essentially accuses Assange of undermining HRC’s campaign for political reasons. Your failure to significantly criticize Assange on this point (in this article) suggests a possible political motive on your part as well. You have a long history at the Intercept of criticism directed at Hillary Clinton. You make no secret of your disagreement with the policies she supports (especially concerning Israel). In his mission statement, Assange writes (from Mackey’s article):
“…….Assange wrote, “let us consider two closely balanced and broadly conspiratorial power groupings, the US Democratic and Republican parties.” He continued, “Consider what would happen if one of these parties gave up their mobile phones, fax and email correspondence — let alone the computer systems which manage their subscribers, donors, budgets, polling, call centres and direct mail campaigns? They would immediately fall into an organisational stupor and lose to the other.”…..”
It seems that Assange has tried to turn his philosophy into reality in this election and it is irrelevant that Hillary is almost certain to win. It is a dangerous precedent and an abuse of Journalistic standards (used by Assange) to influence in a democratic election for political reasons – another case in point of the dangers of advocacy journalism.
Nonsense!
Political actors do not have a write to privacy with respect to material that impact the public.
The “side effect” — impact on election — is just that — a side effect. Politicians from all stripes want to hide, by red-baiting if necessary.
Incidentally, Assange is doing us a favor by exposing this farce we call “democratic election”.
You are missing the point. I said absolutely nothing about a “right to privacy”. What isn’t discussed in Greenwald’s article but lucidly by Mackey is what motivates Assange which I do believe is important.
No, you are missing the point. These are two distinct issues. Let me make it simple for you. We still arrest thieves even if the crime is reported by another thief. Hillary and supporters (which if previous writing is a guide, Mackey is one), continue to try to switch the subject.
JayZ
I agree with you 100% that Hillary is sleazy, but I am NOT discussing the source of the hacked information. Again, for the third time, I am questioning the political agenda of Assange – and it is a common topic in the world of journalism right now:
“…….Assange still presents himself as above the fray, more interested in liberating secrets and destroying the barriers to information than in grubby power exchanges of partisan politics. But at this point, even confined to a diplomatic building in London, he has considerable experience in influencing elections abroad and a documented political record [i.e. political agenda]…..” – Daily Beast my insert in brackets
“…….IN RECENT MONTHS, the WikiLeaks Twitter feed has started to look more like the stream of an opposition research firm working mainly to undermine Hillary Clinton than the updates of a non-partisan platform for whistleblowers……” – Robert Mackey, The intercept
“……..Mr. Assange proffered a vision of America as superbully: a nation that has achieved imperial power by proclaiming allegiance to principles of human rights while deploying its military-intelligence apparatus in “pincer” formation to “push” countries into doing its bidding, and punishing people like him who dare to speak the truth…….Notably absent from Mr. Assange’s analysis, however, was criticism of another world power, Russia, or its president, Vladimir V. Putin, who has hardly lived up to WikiLeaks’ ideal of transparency. Mr. Putin’s government has cracked down hard on dissent — spying on, jailing, and, critics charge, sometimes assassinating opponents while consolidating control over the news media and internet. If Mr. Assange appreciated the irony of the moment — denouncing censorship in an interview on Russia Today, the Kremlin-controlled English-language propaganda channel — it was not readily apparent……..” – NYT
He is your typical far left wing political activist with an anti-American political agenda.
However, I do believe the source of the information is important from the point of view that the source could be hacked information by Russian intelligence (from a diplomatic point of view). Do you think it is OK for the US to interfere with the elections of another country?
“to influence in a democratic election for political reasons ”
So, if you’re outraged by a foreign actor doing so, you must be apoplectic about the DNC, Wasserman-Shultz, perhaps Clinton for doing the same, right?
But maybe that’s just American Exceptionalism! It’s okay when our corrupt politicians rig our elections, but god forbid anyone else tries to.
The Clinton campaign and the DNC are classic corrupt organizations. Clinton was essentially anointed the nomination by the democratic party (DNC). But the Republicans have been far worse in this campaign clearly doing everything possible to defeat a Trump nomination. Regardless, the attempt by WikiLeaks to expose and defeat HRC by releasing damaging emails right before the election is dangerous – and a clear violation of ethical journalism (IMHO).
Additionally, Greenwald might dismiss as irrelevant that Russia is likely behind the hack, but it is also very relevant (again IMHO) because of the potential ramifications for US-Russia relations if Hillary wins (besides the criminal hacking and interference in a democratic election).
Thanks.
What if Assange’s objective is to show the world/American people how Big Money’s stranglehold on critical thought has totally delegitimized our political process, while simultaneously illuminating how this same influence has inspired our nation to systematically murder and torture human beings all over the world?
From that perspective… maybe Assange is doing Hillary a service, letting all this go while Trump spirals into his own certain defeat, at once making a mockery of the Republican Establishment/two-party system/free press/you-name-it while giving neoliberals one last free pass (or one last nail in the coffin, but you can’t always get what you want)
You seem to want to call Assange selfless and altruistic. How does Mackey view the release of documents by Assange just two months ago (first paragraph, “What Julian Assange’s War on Hillary Clinton Says About WikiLeaks”; August 6, 2016):
“……IN RECENT MONTHS, the WikiLeaks Twitter feed has started to look more like the stream of an opposition research firm working mainly to undermine Hillary Clinton than the updates of a non-partisan platform for whistleblowers……”
I tend to agree – and I really cannot stand HRC.
the attempt by WikiLeaks to expose and defeat HRC by releasing damaging emails right before the election is dangerous – and a clear violation of ethical journalism (IMHO).
So, it is dangerous to have a citizenry informed about the actions of its leaders? Or is it only the timing that is dangerous? Because we are told, adamantly, by those who support people like Clinton et al that if we have complaints then it is our right – nay, our DUTY – to exercise our objections like good citizens every four years and vote these people out of office if we disagree with their policies. Then someone like you comes along and objects to us finding out how truly nasty they are prior to exercising that right.
Convenient.
Greenwald might dismiss as irrelevant that Russia is likely behind the hack, but it is also very relevant (again IMHO) because of the potential ramifications for US-Russia relations if Hillary wins (besides the criminal hacking and interference in a democratic election).
If there are ramifications after Hillary is elected they will most likely stem not from emails that will be forgotten the moment returns confirm her coronation, but rather from her banging on war drums over things like Syria (see ill-advised no-fly-zone that even she understands will kill Syrians) and her preening over the endorsements of people who would like nothing better than to move on and destroy another country on that infamous PNAC list of places the US simply MUST bomb back into the middle ages.
Really, craig, your fussing over these emails is like an old man complaining about the filthy rings he himself left in his bathtub while the roof around him caves in because he couldn’t be bothered to maintain the roof. :-s
Pedinska
“…….Then someone like you comes along and objects to us finding out how truly nasty they are prior to exercising that right…….”
Completely false Pedinska. I don’t think there is anyone any sleazier than HRC (unfortunately, with the exception of Trump). I am objecting to WikiLeaks using their position of power as the sole arbiter of documents likely hacked by Russian Intelligence to attempt to influence an outcome of an election – for political reasons. Assange has made no secret of his dislike for HRC, and politically, he is as far to the left as anyone – yes, even Greenwald. It has little to do with informing the citizenry, and much more to do with the political agenda of Assange. Where are the checks and balances of against a sole arbiter of hacked information releasing what he wants to media outlets? This amounts to a dangerous abuse of his position as a journalist i.e., an abuse of power. There is an incredible amount of information on Assange and his political agenda if you are willing to look, but the one below serves to get my point across (besides the article by Intercept reporter Robert Mackey):
“……Assange still presents himself as above the fray, more interested in liberating secrets and destroying the barriers to information than in grubby power exchanges of partisan politics. But at this point, even confined to a diplomatic building in London, he has considerable experience in influencing elections abroad and a documented political record……..” – Jacob Siegel of the Daily Beast (“The Origin of Julian Assange’s War on Hillary Clinton”, 9-7-2016)
What is amazing is that Greenwald didn’t even address this issue (in the above article) while Mackey wrote an article questioning Assange’s agenda which is obvious. There is no doubt that Greenwald is in lock-step with Assange on HRC and has written numerous articles relentlessly criticizing Hillary – and it wouldn’t surprise me if Greenwald supported Trump to win – although he would most certainly keep that close to the vest considering Trump’s positions on immigration etc.
“…….If there are ramifications after Hillary is elected they will most likely stem not from emails that will be forgotten the moment returns confirm her coronation, but rather from her banging on war drums over things like Syria (see ill-advised no-fly-zone that even she understands will kill Syrians) and her preening over the endorsements of people who would like nothing better than to move on and destroy another country on that infamous PNAC list of places the US simply MUST bomb back into the middle ages……” – Pedinska
I can’t believe that you cannot see the irony of your statement on so many levels. First, the US is bombing ISIS and al-Qaeda in Syria right now – and killing civilians. Effectively, the US with a policy of regime change in Syria is helping to keep Assad the murderer in power. Second, 300,000-400,000 people have been killed already producing millions of refugees. Destroy another country? Jesus, maybe we need to define “destroy”. Third, Russia and the Syrian regime are bombing the fuck right out of Aleppo targeting hospitals, clinics and even an aid convoy – and you are suddenly worried about killing civilians? The Assad regime has committed war crime after war crime for five years to ensure the regime survives. The war was initiated by the Assad regime. While most people who support a no fly zone probably do not understand the ramifications of a no fly zone, that certainly does not make them pro war (as Mona has written numerous times). Bringing up PNAC simply has conspiratorial overtones – and doesn’t mean anything.
Thanks
“Thanks”
It’s all you, buddy.
See, here is the danger. The DNC emails actually showed no such thing, but people like Assange characterized them as such because he conveniently left out context and datelines. The emails when read in context show that the DNC was simply discussing how to deal with Sanders’s attacks against the organization. By that time, Bernie was well on his way to losing the primary and he started lashing out. (Much like Trump is now.) DWS stepped down to stop the distraction. There was no election rigging. The proof is that Bernie won most of the caucuses. The caucuses, while highly undemocratic, were run by the state parties when the states don’t fund a proper primary. Primaries, however, are run states and the party has little to no control over them. In fact, half the officials running the primaries are Republican. If the party was rigging the election, they would have really only been able to mess with the caucuses. That was clearly not the case.
As for reporting on the leaks. It’s lazy. Anyone can read the emails. Tho most, like you, seem content to have hack journalists like Greenwald tell you what he wants you to believe is in them. The real story would be actually reporting on the cyber version of Watergate and getting the truth out of who is really working on throwing our election to Trump. But that would take actual journalism.
You ascribe motives to Assange of which you cannot possibly be privy. You speculate about motives without a shred of proof of any motive other than to disseminate the facts as they are. I cannot think of better way to influence an election than by letting people know who they are REALLY voting for.
I think that knowing the truth about those in positions of power is one of the more important aspects of political life. Wouldn’t you agree?
I believe that people like Snowden, Chelsea Manning, etc. are doing a great service to the public, and vehicles like Wikileaks, The Intercept, etc. are instrumental in that effort.
Glenn has discussed in great depth these issues. However, the one thing that needs to be understood is that the curation of these documents needs to be as independent as possible from the bias of the curator. I say “as independent as possible” because I don’t think it can ever be entirely unbiased. After all, these are humans doing the curating.
On the other hand, someone(s) must perform this task. Better that it be someone who is truly invested in journalistic integrity rather than some self-serving group or corporation.
If Clinton is elected (as seems quite likely) won’t it be better that the forces of progress (that she has resisted so often for so long) are able to confront her with fact and demand that their voices be heard? If for no other reason, than to make the process a little more democratic.
“……You ascribe motives to Assange of which you cannot possibly be privy…..”
I think you are wrong. He has a written track record just like anyone else who has a political agenda – and is in a position of power.
“……I think that knowing the truth about those in positions of power is one of the more important aspects of political life. Wouldn’t you agree?…..”
I agree.
“…..Glenn has discussed in great depth these issues. However, the one thing that needs to be understood is that the curation of these documents needs to be as independent as possible from the bias of the curator……”
That is exactly what I am saying – and in the case of Assange, it is not. He has a clear political agenda and the timed release of the documents is meant for maximum affect on the election. He politically opposes HRC.
“……On the other hand, someone(s) must perform this task. Better that it be someone who is truly invested in journalistic integrity rather than some self-serving group or corporation……”
This has nothing to do with corporations, and Assange lacks journalistic integrity.
“…….If Clinton is elected (as seems quite likely) won’t it be better that the forces of progress (that she has resisted so often for so long) are able to confront her with fact and demand that their voices be heard? If for no other reason, than to make the process a little more democratic……”
On the surface the answer is yes, but is Assange really making the election a little more democratic by attempting to influence the election with powerful information meant to influence the outcome for one side? I don’t believe that is his agenda anymore than that was the agenda of the Republican Party at Watergate.
Thanks for your response
A case for the Wikileaks Model
There is talk about editing and redacting documents before they are released.
Let’s see if we can separate the partisan hacks who want nothing released ever, from the people who are genuinely sincere about this issue.
It’s so easy to do. Just answer the following questions.
—-
How many person hours will it take on average to review, redact and release 100 words?
List what things will get done in those hours. For example– (Removal of: names of secret agents, important spy stuff, medical information, children’s names and information if younger than 18, etc.)
What do you think that will cost on average per 100 words?
—-
Super easy to answer and is information that is obviously necessary to have anything close to a rational conversation on the topic.
Just remember, the more it costs and the more friction there is, the less is released.
Once we have those numbers we can also put them in context of the total budget for a media outlet vs. the number of words released after documents are reviewed and redacted. For example, with the Intercept we would look at the total monetary expenditures and then the total word count of the documents released, and then we can come up with total dollars spent per word released.
I think the Intercept is a good example because we know they have documents waiting to be released, and they are going to be more motivated to release than a standard media outlet, so their dollar per word ratio is going to be very good for a traditional style media outlet.
I don’t have the numbers of the Intercept’s “total dollars spent/number of words of reviewed, redacted and released” right now, but this ratio is going to be really bad simply because they have spent a ton of money and haven’t released that many documents. But once we have this number we can begin to see how many released documents the GNP of the nation would support.
Since benevolent billionaires are few and far between (cough), I also want to highlight the current system that we are depending on to finance these redactions.
The entire population is systemically spied upon by large corporations. Our emails, web sites we visit, videos we watch, medical information, etc, is all permanently collected, sold, traded, given to the government, analyzed, upskirted, raped by robots, monetized, and used to completely fuck us over. Then an infinitesimally small percentage of the money that is generated from all this spying will go to media outlets representing the vast majority of their income. Once there, a very tiny percentage of that money will be used to protect the privacy of a very small number of very powerful people by redacting leaked documents.
This is the deal we are being offered.
We are being asked to give up all of our privacy in order to finance protecting the privacy of our leaders and their henchmen.
@Doug Salzman
Doug, I love you, even when I passionately and vehemently disagree with you when you call Bernie a fraud. I know you’re coming from a good place.
But seriously, Sillyputty has a point. feline16 is only asking what has been raging through my own head. Where is The Intercept on Amy Goodman and Dakota Access Pipeline bullshit?
From what I remember about the inception of The Intercept, they supposedly assembled a kickass legal team, before a single article was published at The Intercept. What is this legal team doing? Why is the Intercept not interviewing the relevant ACLU chapter to find out what’s going on with the case against Amy Goodman, who is supposed to turn herself in to the North Dakota authorities on October 17??? I understand that people have to stay up nights and read all the wikiLeaks shit on John Podesta, but this is bloody important.
A filmmaker, Deia Schlosberg, who works with/for Josh Fox just got arrested for filming protests and faces a possible 45 year sentence if convicted. Who at the Intercept is covering the North Dakota pipeline mess??
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyzXQ6ArGbA
(continuing in the reply as The Intercept still doesn’t allow multiple links for some people)
Shailene Woodley, the actress, just got arrested by people who walked out of a mine resistant armored vehicle, looking like storm troopers, because she was live-streaming a protest. Who at the Intercept is covering the DAP bullshit?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zlBi2P2Upw
They have a $250mm endowment. The Intercept should be able to cover the Dakota Access Pipeline story. No fucking excuses. You should be pissed too Doug.
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test2
https://www.youtube.com/embed/5zlBi2P2Upw
@Doug Salzman
Doug, I love you, even when I passionately and vehemently disagree with you when you call Bernie a fraud. I know you’re coming from a good place.
But seriously, Sillyputty has a point. feline16 is only asking what has been raging through my own head. Where is The Intercept on Amy Goodman and Dakota Access Pipeline bullshit?
From what I remember about the inception of The Intercept, they supposedly assembled a kickass legal team, before a single article was published at The Intercept. What is this legal team doing? Why is the Intercept not interviewing the relevant ACLU chapter to find out what’s going on with the case against Amy Goodman, who is supposed to turn herself in to the North Dakota authorities on October 17??? I understand that people have to stay up nights and read all the wikiLeaks shit on John Podesta, but this is bloody important.
A filmmaker, Deia Schlosberg, who works with/for Josh Fox just got arrested for filming protests and faces a possible 45 year sentence if convicted. Who at the Intercept is covering the North Dakota pipeline mess??
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyzXQ6ArGbA
Shailene Woodley, the actress, just got arrested by people who walked out of a mine resistant armored vehicle, looking like storm troopers, because she was live-streaming a protest. Who at the Intercept is covering the DAP bullshit?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zlBi2P2Upw
They have a $250mm endowment. The Intercept should be able to cover the Dakota Access Pipeline story. No fucking excuses. You should be pissed too Doug.
I agree that it would be good to see some reporting on the Indian uprising over the Dakota Access pipeline but fixating on celebrity drive-byes is just a distraction from the real story of the people who are staying there and maintaining the camps and demonstrations.
Amy Goodman and this other woman may have brought some attention to this issue but anyone who trespasses on private property is exposing themselves to charges. I don’t think that celebrities or even journalists have special rights that shield them when they trespass.
Amy Goodman and this other woman may have brought some attention to this issue but anyone who trespasses on private property is exposing themselves to charges.
Honest question: What private property were they trespassing on?
Honest question 2: How should we weight the rights of (alleged) private property versus the right of the populace to clean water?
The reasons that all these leaked stories are of interest to us is because information that should be known by the public, is kept secret. The theory is that government is answerable to the people. The reality is somewhat different in most countries.
The weakness of our democratic institutions is deliberately exploited by those that run it. We are kept in the dark. Agencies that we pay for, and that are supposed to be answerable to us, are in many cases completely unaccountable. In many cases they are operating in secret – they can therefore get away with it. There is no proper method of scrutiny.
Until proper methods of democratic accountability can be established then the role of the whistle blower and/or hacker will remain crucial.
Ironically they actually act as a kind of support to the State – without them, many would feel that their only recourse to injustice was violence.
John Rothery (Tauranga)
Well said. +1
Well, no. It also helps to have sex or violence, or preferably both. What is not newsworthy is the truth. The Podesta e-mails tell a depressing story that to become president, you must sell your soul in the service of the most powerful factions of society, while pretending to be a champion of the poor and oppressed. No one wants to read that. So the e-mails do not pass the newsworthiness test.
I like the article! To be honest I’m so tired that all the major media companies are extremely biased (either right or left). As far as I know that is because for the past 50 years media is being literally bought out and based around commercial interests not public interests. In our Advertising class we were thought that before Ad age there were actual laws that protect public media and can’t be influenced by money per se.
I think Intercept is one of the few channels that I’m actually reading. Pure journalism. Please Glenn – stay true to A level journalism and don’t sell out for either of sides. I do understand that everyones subjective and we are all biased in certain way to protect our beliefs, but journalists, I mean A-level journalists should respect different opinions, but at the same time challenge them.
Really, The Intercept is a source that I’ve grew to trust and I really hope it stay’s true to its position as being independent from outside forces.
Good journalism seems to be in low supply these days and is fast becoming a form of protest. As with all other protests, when critics are worried about the content, they begin to take issue with the method. The hope is that if the method becomes the issue, the content can be discredited or avoided.
Thanks God for people like Snowden , Assange ….. and many others . Thanks for those who analyse and report ….. like GG.
Green New World
Even living in the woods I get information leaked to me about misconduct in local government, bad cops and officials steering municipal contracts to their friends. I’ve had some real scum bags give me good information for no other reason except to screw someone. But I can’t give a shit about the motives of a source; my only concern is whether it’s newsworthy, true and verifiable. That’s the only litmus test I can fly by or I’d be killing stories all the time. And shame on newsmen for letting motives become a deflection and ultimately the story.
Thanks for your commitment to good journalism.
The “don’t shoot the messenger” form of ad hominem is one of the most common, but also one of the most obvious to recognize. So/but I wonder how much of those employing that realize their folly but hope others don’t; vs. how many are truly ignorant about that error.
I wish logic was a required course in K-12 education.
Journalism under attacks again. It is fortunate to have capable people lend a voice for those without. Truth worship not so favored in time of deceit
Thankful for whistleblowers. They have the guts and the morality to do what others have not.
CrookdClintons have CONTINUALLY DOUBLECROSSED AND MADE US TAXPAYERS PAY FOR IT– THE PUBLICPRIVATE HEADING and some as Matthew Yglesisa find that “endearing”?
I will go ahead and impute motives. Chris Hayes motives. But first. For the last 2-3 days The Intercept has reported on the content of the leaked emails. And they are to at least leftists I know, very damaging revelations to Hillary. So lo and behold, suddenly journalistic ethics becomes an a burning issue in some circles which was never an issue with any revelation about the private citizen turned candidate Trump. Chris Hayes is baffled at the end of the interview as to why Podesta’s actions and beliefs and emails should be made public. I suppose Podesta will pat him on the shoulder at their next private party with media and political power brokers.
As stated, The Intercept has been a lead site on the contents of the leaks, and I believe that whether intentional or not, Chris Hayes was asking Glenn as the lead voice of the site, to tone it down. It being revelations about Clinton in the emails. Hayes kept in effect going back to the invocation of nefarious motives but circumspect in the knee jerk reaction to blame Putin–which Glenn would have slapped back.
But the mass media has fallen in line about ignoring the content, in fact the entire leaks. I checked Alexa and CNN is thee most popular news site online in the United States, and it has nothing about the content of the leaks. (A word about CNN online. While crap ratings as a TV outlet, it is huge as an online news source. Last time I checked, it got 20+ million hits a day. Bill O’Reilly gets what something like 1.6 million viewers per day. )
I love you Glenn. You make me hopeful.
Hillary ? Donald ?
For Jesus ‘s sake
JUST KILL ALL THE BASTARDS !!
All this dancing is tiresome . Kill the bastards !!
Here’s what it is
KILL !!
>” 3. The more public power someone has, the less privacy they are entitled to claim.”
That hardly seems fair … and sounds suspiciously like a [redacted] NSA memo, Glenn. *& given the scope and scale of the Snowden disclosures … they should know!
As a general rule, the best I would say is that the more one prys into the private affairs of others, the less expectation of privacy one is entitled to claim.
Sorry bah, you’re just wrong. As Glenn writes above:
It is the exercise of ‘public power’ that underpins FOIA disclosure and ’embraces the proposition that those who wield public power submit to greater transparency than private citizens do.’ Imo, a legitimate expectation for a degree of ‘personal privacy’ can be made by the weak and powerful alike, sis.
*I, definitely, have no problem with the NYT publishing Trump’s tax return, or anything else, the NYT determines has a public interest. Nor with media reporting on private matters of people in powerful public positions. .. as long as a minimally tenuous connection to a ‘public interest’ can be maintained.
In any case, I was mainly trying to point out, given the scope and scale of the Snowden’s NSA disclosures – Get. It. All. .. U.S. politicians like Mrs. Clinton complaining about being hacked is like water complaining about being wet.
The key is that these are people who SEEK to be PUBLIC servants.
Anytime their real behavior is about manipulating people and
giving advantages to other powerful people OVER the needs of
the people they are supposedly serving, it is a public service
when the public is informed of the truth and their deceptions and lies
become known. Knowledge is power and those who try to conceal
the truth and are then revealed as deliberately Mis-Leading people
are taking away power from the people they pretend to be serving.
Communism is great in Theory . Love , Sharing , equality but it breaks down because a few know how to scam the many. Theory is great but reality is us humans are at times sinister.
I’m not entirely sure you understand what communism is, none of what Clark said was in reference to communism. It is simply a different political and economic structure that allows for market intervention by the state, rather than allowing free market principles to dictate. Love, Sharing and equality are part of all political and economic systems, including capitalism, it is however, as you say the sinister actions of humans that prevent capitalism from achieving all the goals we should expect from our economy.
Bravo, Prof Greenwald, every journalist could benefit from your 5 points.
Extremely enlightening article that leaves the desire for more and clears a lot many confusions and doubts regarding investigatative journalism. What an apt article to clarify and define the meaning of ‘privacy’ and ‘true journalism’ or ‘obligations of a journalist towards the public”. Extremely glad about your writings! Thanks Glen!
Once again GG has shown his intelligence and poise. He was able to counter all of Chris’ “WOULD EVERYBODY JUST LEAVE HILLARY ALONE” whining without alienating Chris. I think Glenn will be invited back even though if you read between the lines Chris looks like a sniveling little **********. (don’t want to be gender bias)
Once again GG shows his intelligence and poise. He was able to counter all of Chris’ “WOULD ALL YOU MEAN PEOPLE JUST LEAVE HILLARY ALONE”
Down-thread: The ever “helpful” Doug Salzmann is “educating” a fellow commenter with a veritable hat-trick of commenting goodness:
Next comment – because he’s being so “helpful,” don’ ya’ know:
And the third comment (because true “helpfulness” can be redundant)
But Doug’s not done with his Samaritan works:
__________________________________________________________________________________________
Now, for all you wanna-be-helpful “Samaritan-Salzmann’s” out there:
Doug’s “helpful” replies rely on a carefully crafted use of the English language:
And finally:
Doug “Samaritan-Salzmann’s”one mistake? (Because nobody’s perfect):
The use of a quotation mark when, clearly, an apostrophe would have been more apropos.
Yeah, it was a typo. They are on the same key, ya know?
Do you have a point? Unhappy with my sarcasm? Tough. Fuck off.
And, BTW, apropos doesn’t mean what you think it does.
I love sarcasm and mockery, when done well. But more importantly, to those that have earned it.
If I’m recalling correctly, feline16 has not. Ever.
You, on the other hand are deserving of the attention you get for calling others out indiscriminately and with ill will.
And before you try to pigeonhole others yet again, I’ll repeat what I said to you last time:
And:
As far as fucking off? Yeah. I don’t think so.
While I might disagree with you mostly, you hit the nail on the head with Salzmann. Salzmann has a history of pretending he is superior to other posters. He is NOT on substance.
In the big picture, @Maisie should thank her lucky stars The Turnip wasn’t ‘analyzing’ her ‘but’.
Glenn,
While your essays almost always have direct relevance to current events this essay, as many of yours do, go well beyond the referenced issues of the day and address the fundamental and timeless issues of what is wrong with, and what possible solutions there may be for a global society.
Thanks for your eloquence explaining that there are duties implied by the 1st Amendment.
It is not a declaration of unpatriotic privileges.
Your face was ….. just. [snort]
Glen Greenwald is a hero, Wikileaks has no obligation to withhold this material, and it should be reported on. But the reporting is so often just a mindless reading into the narratives that are already playing out: Hillary is duplicitous, when in fact the emails show that the campaign is exactly what it seems, and that Hillary basically was the same politician in front of Goldman as she was in debate. The frustrating echo chamber journalism is the bigger problem here, but I’m an admitted partisan, so that’s what I see
Glenn – you were terrific on Chris Hayes show last night. It was disappointing to see Chris elevate the issue of the source of the leaks over the content. And of course there’s no actual evidence that the Russians are behind them. Thanks for your work – keep it up.
It’s like you read my Facebook arguments.
Thanks, once again, for saying it better than I could.
I am amazed and pleased at Mr. Greenwald’s willingness to explain his reasoning behind his beliefs and work. He does this in many different media, and even takes time to debate (seemingly) every tweeting partisan and/or troll. This must be exhausting.
I am so happy that someone like Mr. Greenwald pits in this work. Personally, I am disappointed that so many Americans are seemingly without critical and logical facilities. (Part of this stems from laziness that I too exhibit, caused by curating an echochamber of likeminded news and opinion sources. I am almost always on Greenwald’s or Carl Beijer’s side, for example, and need to check that maybe I’m not so different than folks at Daily Kos who take everything Krugman at face value).
But certainly larger causes of the poor quality thinking I see Greenwald constantly address are the American educational system, its media, and economic system itself.
I hope Glenn’s willingness to engage us helps some of us become better able to seperate truth from fiction, to see clearly where the world needs changing, and to take action.
Hopefully this comment made sense even with the typos. Apologies!
The fact that GG’s carefully reasoned, reflexive, and measured analysis of the Podesta file juts out attests to the grotesque character of this interminable election. “HRC is the only thing standing between democracy and fascism!” ran a regurgitated FB post weeks ago. If true, we don’t live in a democracy worthy of the name On this point, even the most jaded veteran politico in this country becomes indignant.
We need to have a PROFESSIONAL news agency like the New York Times, CNN or CNBC edit all of these and just put out what the American people really need to know. Sadly, if you give it to a place like Fox News or general internet it will all get published and the American people will get the wrong truth about all of this. Only 110% reputable reporters should have even seen this. Wikileaks must go! or they must vow to send all of their to the New York Times and let the Times decide what should and should not get published as they are professionals, not Julian Assange deciding.
Joe,the only thing that rag is good for is wrapping your salmon in kosher salt.
I am deeply concerned about the state of professional journalism today. We are seeing more and more abandonment of the principles of journalism- to report honestly and without bias, the truth, or as close to the truth as possible.
Instead, all the major newspapers of note, the NYT, the WaPo, the LA Times, etc…and the online and TV media…CNN, MSNBC, ABC, CBS, FOX, et al are now glorifying their own personal pov of their corporate media. Reporters must shout down as quickly as possible any refutation of their favorite candidate, lest the public get the information they need that might divert from their own favorite candidate.
Right now, liberal sites and liberal papers, are in collaboration to do just this. I had to turn to the Fox Channel just to get relief from the ad nauseum coddling of Hillary Clinton, who apparently needs coddling and protection.
Since she did commit crimes it is apparent they don’t want the public to ponder on that for too long!
Within every journalistic organization, there are shills and there are journalists. It’s well worth the effort to recognize the individual reporters and writers whom you can trust to offer some insight without blatant politicking.
For instance, I discovered G.G. while he was writing for Salon, which I didn’t care for at all, but if I had judged him solely by the organization he associated with, I would’ve missed out on a great political commentator. Trust in people, not organizations.
I think the shows on cable channels have always been subjective, though they got a lot more so after 9/11. I stopped watching them shortly after that. Don’t watch the broadcast news anymore either (part of my reason in addition to bad channels was also because it was too depressing and stressful). Really glad the internet exists though.
James Risen
Here’s what you need to know.
The Clinton team’s email security was terrible. The Russians did not hack Podesta’s emails.
Read this blog post:
“To wit, after (the word there is after), after (again in case you thought it was a typo), Wikileaks release thousands of his emails, John Podesta still did not install two step verification on his iCloud account. He did not change his password. His gmail password, which resulted in the hack, was Hillary2016 (I saw this on 4chan and then it disappeared, for what that’s worth) and his iCloud password was podesta1234 (according to the threads on 4chan before they disappeared). He still had that as his password after (did you read that word before?) his emails were the talk of the universe.
I sh*t you not. This is true.”
What kind of person would rattle her saber at a nuclear power to save her own skin? Thousands of lives could be lost. Would your family member in the military service die, to deflect from the contents of her team’s emails?
Even if you’re a Democrat, do still want to point at the Russians?
Teenagers on 4chan.org hacked Podesta’s Twitter account to make Trump jokes. Not the Russians.
See more here: https://medium.com/@willpflaum/russia-my-ass-fire-john-hillary2016-podesta1234-4dd2bc6c571e#.hbl93sdr9
A great article.
The video summation underscores the difference between a journalist with principled positions that they’re able to articulate and that reflect the public interests, and one that simply uses too much hair product.
I can’t thank you enough for your excellent writing at the various stages of this ridiculous presidential election cycle. You are one of the only key real journalists I have been following anymore (one of the only true investigative journalists left these days) from which to get the real story. so thank you again!
If public figures were truly transparent to begin with, then we wouldn’t need to worry about Wikileaks or anyone leaking anything. If politicians aren’t going to bother, then I am glad there are hackers and journalists who will bring things to light.
The motives for the leaks are an entirely separate issue. Seeing as how these powerful public figures affect the lives of millions of people worldwide, we have a need to know.
Thank you Mr. Greenwald and all other *real* journalists who are willing to publish the facts, no matter how ugly, unpleasant, or inconvenient to whomever.
Again, if public figures don’t want to deal with these headaches, then act with transparency in the first place, and there won’t be anything to leak. It isn’t someone else’s fault you get caught with your hand in the cookie jar — that’s just deflection. The fact that there is something to leak in the first place only justifies a lack of trust and support.
This is a beautifully written and well argued piece. However, I wonder in a case like Podesta’s emails, how one can determine what is private and personal.? That he has friends, deals with life’s banalities, and shops at the same stores we all shop at, serves in addition to adding body to the narrative, the function of humanizing Podesta. This makes the truly meaty emails more believable and the evil of banality more apparent.
I’m trying to figure out where Glenn gets the idea that ‘ every major media outlet is reporting on it’, it being the contents of the Podesta emails. The AP, Fox and RT are reporting on some of the details but most of the major media seem to be cranking the Grand Wurlitzer and trying to distract people from the content of these emails.
https://news.google.com/news/story?ncl=dHsxRwoziDKXPyMGQ5KHCCR9OuH6M&q=podesta+emails&lr=English&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwih9o-b-djPAhUB3mMKHXQTA8kQqgIIKDAA
D’OH!!!!
A cursory examination of these links shows that the few major media responses begin mostly with the Russians, Russians, Russians and Wikileaks dumping emails that are claimed to be real but not confirmed Podesta emails.
The RT report is chock full of details about the content of this leak including a top ten. This is straight up investigating and reporting while the major media is doing something altogether different even if they do report some of the less damning information.
This was lost the first time.
Dropped by with a little bit of humor – Nixon vs Kennedy vs Trump:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doEk7ajI9sY
Pence vs Kaine:
http://gregorybrothers.tumblr.com/tagged/videos
I disagree with #3 ethically, though I largely agree with the need for it logically. What I find interesting is that a public servant, regardless of how much power attained still must be held to our standards of human equality, but this is rarely the case with such advantages and disadvantages.
It’s imperative that journalists assess risks against the public interest when publishing material from a source, of course. But is it in the public interest to aid and abet one campaign as it performs its dirty tricks and smear campaign against another, whether that campaign is working through a foreign government or not?
Here is the answer to that: if you are poor, if you are a minority, if you are a Muslim, if you have a disability, if you are a vulnerable woman in the workplace or home, if you are not the very real target of a very vicious, psychopathic demagogue who has called for the killing of his political opponent, who plans to jail her without due process, who has denigrated her in the most base manner, who plans on ripping undocumented families apart and throwing them out of this country, who plans to bomb the hell out of Muslim countries for revenge and bring back torture, then the answer is a most definitive no. If that is the public you’re talking about, then publishing Mr. Assange and the Russians criminal activity is most certainly not at all in that public’s interest. And just to make this clearer, it’s somewhat akin to the public interest if let’s say the communist party was illegally broken into in 1932 and its inner workings and communications stolen and spread among the Germans to aid Mr. Hitler’s election. Indeed, in that case, you’re a Jew or a minority or you have a disability, why the answer is a most emphatic no.
But if you’re white, if you’re privileged, if you draw a salary and run an organization from a single billionaire, in other words, if you cavort with the 1 percent of the 1 percent, then, of course, the answer is yes. So, there you have Mr. Greenwald’s self-serving, dangerous, reckless, malignant and narcissistic actions that in the end are serving the most potentially dangerous human on earth right now, Mr. Trump. For Mr. Greenwald, it’s all just fun and games which is why he was smirking through much of his interview with Chris Hayes.
Fortunately, Chris called him out. “I think he has a lesser right to privacy,” Mr. Greenwald said and then later tried to back peddle and conflate that word which he very much meant with the word transparency.
It always amazes me how the corporate and much of the alternative media try to justify not having certain people on. Being an established “name”, what purpose would it serve for the govt. to arrest Greenwald and throw him in jail? There would be a massive outcry that would turn him into a martyr. Which is the last thing that Obama wants 3 months before he’s gone.
MSNBC did do an interview with Chomsky. But only online. NPR talked about doing a Chomsky interview. All questions and his responses had to be written IN ADVANCE and approved by NPR management. Then at the last minute, some NPR news executive said no. The BBC’s “Five Live” program did a Chomsky interview. It was IMO the worst hatchet job ever.
If Greenwald’s okay to have on, what about John Pilger? He’s a internationally known and respected journalist who’s never been sued for any of his work. What possible rationale could a serious news organization have for not interviewing him?
Answer: Comcast owns MSNBC, NBC, Universal, Univision, Telemundo and the Weather Channel. It’s the Democratic Propaganda Channel. All that matters is never piss off Obama, Hillary or any other powerful Democrat. Who cares how many Journalist of the Year Awards Pilger’s won? No chance in hell he’ll be seen on our air. Greenwald on the other hand is an Oscar winner who should be in jail for working with a guilty criminal hiding in Russia. That’s different.
Clinton/Democratic Party supporters regard Greenwald as a clown who takes civil liberties issues too far, except when he directs his scrutiny toward Republicans.
Chomsky is a progressive hypocrite dung-head who promotes voting for Clinton in this election, by the way.
Greenwald so far hasn’t succumbed to the demand he do the same, but he does keep asserting rather calmly that the corporatist warmonger Clinton will most likely win. MSNBC likes such prophecies, even from him.
Your “but” is a non-sequitur in regards to anything approaching an endorsement or even a “safe state” endorsement. What Glenn is doing by “asserting” that Clinton will probably win is virtually the same thing he had done all along during Sanders’ primary campaign when he always “asserted” that Sanders, if he loses the primary, would absolutely endorse Clinton. He’s just stating what he sees as the reality of how this shit goes down. I, for one, can sometimes delude myself with wishful thinking, so for me it’s helpful to hear/read someone who is able to get past that sort of wishful thinking and just state what is, based on metrics, by far most likely outcome, no matter how crapatoria that outcome will be.
As a joke, I want to say how fitting it is in these ‘Donald Trump’ days that you’re analyzing a young woman’s ‘but.’
In response to your comment, I can tell you’re a bit cross that in your perspective I almost implied Greenwald may be seen as somewhat endorsing Clinton. This is understandable because I’ve made deliberately provocative posts in the past trying to get him or Mona to say whether he does or doesn’t. But what I meant by the above was in reply to Tom’s curiosity as to why Glenn is interviewed at all while John Pilger is ignored, my theory being that Greenwald’s opinion of Clinton is tempered with his expectation that she’ll win – which may please the establishment, and certainly is welcomed by Clinton’s fans. Plus Pilger (and Chomsky, for that matter) are boring interviewees in this superficial day and age, regardless of what they say.
I wasn’t implying Glenn DOES endorse Clinton; in fact so far he takes pains to precisely avoid explicitly doing so (unlike the miserable Chomsky), and although I am suspicious that he will indeed vote for her because Trump is so offensive, I have come to accept that it’s really none of my business.
The electoral college and the establishment itself all agree also that Clinton will win, and I don’t doubt it for a minute. Probably the only difference between me and Glenn on this is that he wouldn’t add that the establishment will cheat to have her win, if necessary – whereas I would.
I appreciate your reply, including, very much so, the introductory joke. A short while ago someone I respect from articles and on twitter and elsewhere linked to a version of Masters of War, which, partly due to your age, which you mentioned in your reply, caused me to think of you. I was considering, even before your reply, linking to it for your benefit in this sub-thread we’re on. I think one reason why that was is because when I listened to it I was as emotionally moved as I had been years earlier in my life. It’s sad that such important words, combined with such important music, haven’t changed the world in much larger ways than what we are witness to everyday … still.
So, here you are. Odetta Sings Dylan — Masters of War
Stunningly powerful, thank you so much. Such gravity, beauty, meaning… Chills rushing up my spine.
Dylan,the youthful verbose antiwar and peace love and understanding icon,who today is silent Bob on any criminal activity and warmongering,which has spread to 30 nations,not just Vietnam,and antinuke campaigns,when Obomba and the Hell bitch are avid advocates of such.
WTF?Why now does he receive an unprecedented award to popular singers?
Pete Seeger,why not him,when he was alive?
Masters(bators) of war;Hillary Rodham Clinton and Obomba.
Where are ye Bob?
And every neolibcon scum has all his records.sheesh.
Groan.
OK, I admit that I laughed.
Here’s one for you, Maisie: I’m so thoroughly disgusted with the whole mess that I’m actually considering that not voting might be a truer and more honorable expression of my position than voting for Jill.
If I actually don’t vote, it would be the first time in, more or less, forever. But that’s how nauseating and contemptible our system has come to seem to me.
If the votes are honestly counted, I want Jill Stein to get as many of them as possible!
George Carlin was convinced it was better not to vote, though, so you’re in good company. He reckoned that if you vote at all then what happens is still your fault; he seemed to be advocating a ‘vote’ of no confidence in the system itself, the almost anarchic logic of which is quite sound – given the caveat that enough people have to do it for it to be an overwhelming political message from the people to the establishment.
You be you.
How many do you think it might take to send the necessary message? In 2012, about 42.5% of eligible voters failed to vote or refrained from voting in the November election. So, 57.5% of eligible voters actually voted.
Overall, Obama won that election with 51.1% of the popular votes cast. My top-of-the head math tells me that he was, therefore, reelected by about 29.4 % of eligible voters.
I’m not teasing or toying with you; I truly think this is an interesting and important subject.
I would say a total turnout of less than five per cent or so would be a convincing vote of no confidence – and although the establishment would at that juncture probably fabricate larger figures out of sheer panic, it would be difficult with a turnout that low to make the fake results believable except to hermits.
No doubt that would do it — delegitimize the process for all to see, if, of course, “all” were allowed to see.
But I don’t think there’s any likelihood that “they” won’t be able to keep fooling many more citizens than that. So, as a strategy for sending a message that results in real-world change, not voting doesn’t hold much promise (if our assumptions are correct).
So, let’s look at voting for honorable independents or third-party candidates, which I’ve been doing for more than 40 years. This year, for potential voters with principles and preference like yours, mine and a majority of the regulars here, the obvious choice is Stein.
What level of support for such a candidate, or a level built up, one election cycle at a time for similar candidates, do you think would end up making a significant difference in the identity/ideology/principles/policy positions of an elected president? And what does the path to get to that point look like to you?
In the abstract I’d say about 10% of eligible voters supporting an independent would be an effective statement that would draw attention to said Party’s novel direction, but in real terms today nothing but an outright win for Jill Stein is going to change the insanely dangerous bulldozing-ahead of the allied neoliberal/neoconservative establishment.
We can’t afford to have either Trump or Clinton as president, not just because of their awful qualities of psychotic belligerence but also because of their neglect of what really needs to be done for the environment right now. Their joint encouragement of the oligarchical system is literally a threat to everyone on Earth, and not even one year of either of them is acceptable any more than one more year of Obama’s viciousness, submissiveness to the elite, and environmental blindness would be.
It would be gratifying of course to see Dr. Stein get even over 5%, thus qualifying the Green Party for specific funding – but, barring some miraculous emergent technologies that can escalate the clean-up and transition-to-renewables necessary, it’s highly likely the planet is soon to be tragically doomed to being uninhabitable – if not by war then by the polluting ravages of resource exhaustion. So over 5% of itself would be a hollow victory in my opinion, a sad sign of hope just a little too late.
If every student (over 43 million of them) voted for Jill Stein, their student loan debt would be cancelled by Executive Order. This many would easily win the election, and the nation would have a positive cultural paradigm shift. If this opportunity had been broadcast by the mainstream media, it could have actually happened.
So – if you haven’t already – please tell all the students you know about this, whatever you decide to do personally about voting.
I just don’t have the heart to argue forcefully against your positions, or against your hope and enthusiasm, Maisie. You’re one of the most impressive young people I’ve “met” in a long time and I want you to keep both of those qualities for as long as possible — and use them to the fullest effect possible.
In any case, I really need to busy myself with the work that is required to prevent my retirement, and my wife’s, from descending to near-poverty. Fascinating as this forum is, it is also, for me, becoming a distraction. And the degraded quality of discussion, overall, just annoys me and brings out my mean streak. Not good for anyone.
I’ll just ask you to consider, and research, the reality associated with this fragment of your latest post:
That’s right, and likely even overly-optimistic. Climate change is probably already irreversible, for all practical purposes. The amount of carbon dioxide (alone) that we have released into the atmosphere (along with the huge amounts temporarily sequestered in the oceans), is more than enough to drive the planetary warming engine for a very long time, in terms of human lifetimes and civilization. We aren’t really doing anything significant to limit the ongoing emissions and it probably wouldn’t matter much if we did. Too late.
The other single most-critical issue is energy. Although we must transition to renewables (and ultimately, one way or another, we will be forced to do so), there are no renewables available or likely ever to be available that can provide more than a fraction of the energy that we currently derive and use (in wealthy, technologically-advanced societies) from fossil fuels. That seeming cornucopia was a one-time bonus, good for about 150 years, and its time is just about up.
Conventional oil and gas production peaked in about 2009. Every single addition since then has come from unconventional sources — deepwater drilling, horizontal drilling/hydrofracking in tight reservoirs (shale), tar sands, etc. Each and every one of those sources is more difficult and more expensive to access and requires the expenditure of more energy per unit of energy produced. (And they are all more dangerous and environmentally destructive.)
The key factor here is “net energy” or “energy returned on investment” (EROI). A more precise term is “Energy Returned on Energy Invested,” because it makes clear that throwing more money at the problem doesn’t solve it. When it takes more energy to haul up a bucket of oil than the oil returns, you will stop hauling the oil, no matter how much money you can print.
The EROI/EROEI of carbon fuels has been steadily declining and all alternative energy sources we know of have even lower rates of return.
Taken together, what this all means is that the party is coming to an end. Understanding this reality needs to form the foundation of all social, economic and political action, if it is to be useful action in the long term.
The books I suggested the other day are a good place to start. And here’s a good paper to review:
EROI of different fuels and the implications for society
Hang in there, kid. Very best of luck!
George had the fortune of having more political influence in one performance than I have in an entire life time of voting. For George to not vote was not remaining silent wile they rape us. Unfortunately for me my voice is my vote and I don’t want to be silent even in protest. Our system does not have to be corrupt. If we would elect honest people our constitution would work fine.
OT, but please take a few seconds to enjoy Nixon vs Kennedy vs Trump
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doEk7ajI9sY
Ha. Pretty good.
Cultural degeneracy on parade.
Then it was worth posting twice?
Lots of talk here about Chris Hayes and MSNBC. But you’re missing some important points.
First, MSNBC and all the other channels are NOT news channels. They’re talk shows that pedal the hosts’ (not journalists. Just multi millionaires) opinions AS facts. They always have the same people coming on saying the same things in exactly the same ways. MSNBC people must never do or say anything that pisses off the White House. If you do, MSNBC President Phil Griffin will haul your ass into his office and say you’re pissing off Obama. Knock it off.
On Hayes’s show, his bookers will say, we’re under such pressure. You don’t know how hard our job is. While there may be pressure, the fact remains that you have pundits on (paid and unpaid) who do what they’re told. If they get out of line, you’re out. What Hayes can’t deal with is those rare people who speak their minds. Example. Before Sanders finally dropped out, Nina Turner was THE Sanders Surrogate on everywhere. Despite Hayes trying to keep her line line, she kept saying what she really thought. Then Hayes looked like he was on speed. Oh my God! She’s not saying what she’s supposed to say! What do I do????
Podesta keeps saying the Russians are behind the Wikileaks leaks. Really? Where’s your actual proof? Then, the standard response is “as a matter of policy, we never comment on ongoing criminal investigations”. And so on.
Hayes spent the entire interview ignoring the content of the emails and making you justify looking at the royal emails of Queen Hillary and her courtiers.
Nice to see you on the TV but Hayes used you as a sounding board for his immature musings, portraying the debate over whether the emails should even be viewed by mere mortals as more significant than the fact that the emails reveal Clinton as someone mendacious, greedy and manipulative to the point of large-scale corruption and death.
I didn’t watch the video but if what you say is the case then Greenwald should have spoken up and steered the conversation toward the contents of the emails. (Frankly I can’t stand the mindless propaganda issuing from MSDNC. Hayes in particular makes my skin crawl, just the look of him, the dough-faced twerp.
I mentioned this on another thread. When it comes to tv or radio interviews, Glenn could take some lessons from the late Christopher Hitchens. Say what you will about that firebrand–love him or hate him–but when a host was being obtuse or simply diversionary, he would call them on it and not allow them to sidestep or propagandize. He would even mock hosts and other guests to their faces when warranted, as in the case of Hannity and Joan Walsh (and others besides.) It come to be known as the Hitchslap.
And still he’d get invited back on because he was witty and articulate. It’s nasty fun to watch the youtubes of his interviews.
Glenn has done all of that on numerous occasions during interviews. For one well known example, which I have to wonder if you are not aware of or have forgotten, would be this one:
“Why shouldn’t you be charged with a crime?
I think there are genuinely interesting and difficult conflicts between mass leaks and privacy, and that’s what we were there to talk about. The segment arose out of a Twitter discussion we had on that topic.
The content of the emails is a separate issue, though I did highlight some of the revelations in arguing why these matters are in the public interest to know.
I’ve often wondered how restrictive shows like this are in terms of insisting that guests remain topical. Since time is so limited, I would imagine there are trade-offs to both. Depth versus breadth.
“Whether something is “shocking” or “earth-shattering” is an irrelevant standard.”
That’s true enough, but the breathless reporting in some quarters of mostly inane email correspondence has gotten pretty tedious.
No argument that some of this stuff is newsworthy and interesting, but I think it’s entirely fair too to criticize people who dress up inane emails as “shocking”. If your editorial standards lead you to silly overhyping of stories, then you’re fair game for having your journalistic integrity called out.
Gee, you mean that you don’t find the existence of thousands of “mostly inane” emails between officials of the campaign of the likely next POTUS to be shocking?
Well. You really should, you know.
I’m confused. My point was that I found the content of the emails, those that I’d seen reported on, as generally inane (there were exceptions, of course).
Your counterpoint is what exactly?
“it’s entirely fair too to criticize people who dress up inane emails as “shocking””
Dopoint to at least 3 headlines that use words akin to “shocking” buddy. I just went to google news and saw dozens of straightforward headlines.
straw man walking
Are you saying a headline has to have the word “shocking” in it to count as sensationalized?
There’s a straw-man, champ.
Plenty of stories out there – some called Jake Tapper a dick, someone complaining about Sanders fundraising, someone commenting about Catholics’ political leanings – which are frankly mundane, despite the best efforts of some journalists to claim otherwise.
The point about editorial standards is that overhyping the mundane is the equivalent of crying wolf. If you do it, you have no right to complain if you have found something extraordinary and you find yourself ignored.
Hey GG
In a sense, the interview you shared is sad.
While the principles and considerations of journalists were well defended, the interview talking about the how and why, rather than the newsworthy content, does sort of play right into the Hillary camps desire to suppress that information to the extent possible.
I don’t watch these shows, but others here have noted that most of them are not covering the content at all.
Hopefully, the efforts of TI and other outlets are reaching those who care enough to seek out the information (or who know someone who shares) rather than the dependent demographic that waits to be told what is news they should know about by the boob tube.
Hayes saying he doesn’t know if it was the Russians or not (and ignoring that a Russian being involved doesn’t automatically equate to the Russian government being involved), triggered a brief reaction on your face that cracked me up.
Yup… repeating the official line despite zero evidence in a manner that supposedly retains journalistic integrity is worthy of a laugh.
Defenders of the establishment are so square.
This was a pleasure to read — a measured, philosophical statement of the obligations of journalists. Read together with Taibbi’s reflections embedded in his article (http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/taibbi-on-amy-goodman-arrest-for-covering-dakota-pipeline-story-w444754) on Amy Goodman’s arrest, we have a good outline of a charter for real journalists to live by, IMO.
I’d have been happier without the backhanded slap at the evidence pointing to Russia’s responsibility for the hack — it is not true “…that there is no evidence (just unproven U.S. Government assertions) that the Russian government is behind these hacks”. Independent security researchers have come to the same conclusion, and in any event, the mere fact that the US government security agencies makes such an assertion does not invalidate it. In any event these sorts of operations are a known part of the MO of the Russian government’s International security policy — the Russians apparently measure the extent of their own security by the degree of insecurity that they can create for their neighbors and rivals.
The real point is, none of this changes the obligations of journalists, _even if_ as is likely, it was the Russians what done it.
@Carlo Graziani –
I have found it very sad that here at TI there have been NO articles written about Amy Goodman and her struggle for Freedom of the Press. I’m glad that you are reminding us of it.
Aww, diddums. Let me help:
Amy”s work can be found here.
And here.
And here.
Among other places. Sadly, TI doesn’t yet have the resources to employ all your favorite writers and publish them in the same space. So, tough as it is, you will, for now, have to click a little bit.
Helpful hint: research “bookmarks” or “favorites.” You may be able to reduce the number of characters typed.
Arrest and prosecution of Amy Goodman will prove to be a huge mistake on the part of DAP and their mouth pieces. They’ve convinced themselves that they can frighten everyone by using Amy Goodman as an example of the consequence of reporting on them and bringing attention to them. But by pursuing this foolish path of intimidation, they themselves will be bringing more negative attention to themselves than the protests have so far managed to do in all of this time.
Yup.
I actually think the Morton County locals are so ignorantly arrogant that they don’t understand the amount of influence Amy has among demographic cohorts they really don’t want to inflame.
They’re used to treating Indians and other “undesirables” pretty much any damned way they want to — and they’re likely to get a well-earned and unpleasant lesson.
They seem to be targeting anyone filming them who has influence. Ir maybe just anyone who looks professional about it.
Felony Charges Given to Journalist Filming Anti-Pipeline Protest
http://www.ecowatch.com/josh-fox-deia-schlosberg-arrest-2044387167.html
Josh Fox produced the documentary Gasland.
They have also arrested the actress Shailene Woodley. Apparently she was also filming at the protest, documenting the militaristic response to protesters who’ve done nothing to deserve it.
Yeah, this looks exactly like what I expect from these guys.
I ran projects in the High Plains, in and around the big reservations. I have friends in the tribes (not the folks at Standing Rock) and extensive experience with the white, settler-colonialist authorities and their attitudes toward Native Americans and “outside troublemakers” who would dare to “interfere” with their patterns and practices of oppression and routine, casual brutality.
I also know how very isolated these people are, and how little they know about the big world far away. I’m sure they think they can actually get away with arresting protesters for exercising 1st Amendment rights and with charging journalists and filmmakers with felonies.
They have no idea what it means to have “the whole world watching.” And they have no idea what happens when the “defendants” have legal resources beyond the local prosecutors’ wildest dreams.
The prosecutor, Ladd Erickson, is so isolated and ignorant that he doesn’t even actually know who Amy Goodman is.
The only freedom that little propagandist wants is the freedom of a false narrative.
Never in our history has the press been so not free,so I guess her effort is a retrograde one.
Rolling Stone:Trump enemy of America.I believe it ,yes,I believe it.
These clowns better adjust their profit margins down,from the lost times,to Wapoo,and rags like RS,as their only true believers are fellow travelers of zion.
Same with all the HB zollywood scum,but of course their profit margins have been down for years,as they only produce shite.
Thanks for the very informative and well put read Glenn; now I don’t feel too much like the “unaware and compliant citizenry”. https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/3599
And it was “Sent with a handshake”! LOL these mother fuckers….
Albert Camus on of the greatest journalist of all time had an idea that in the afternoon after the major Paris papers had published he would publish a newspaper to correction and clean up the all the BS in the hack press.
I just wonder if that was tried today we would need at least a 500 page paper just to clean up the The New York Times. I can’f find one story that somewhere it brings in the name of Putin, it editorial pages are Trump Trump Trump etc etc etc. Not a word that our so called president lied about knowing Hillary had a unsecured phone while he was e mailing great job Hillary and telling the press he didn’t know.. Or if you really need a charge check the web for his escapade on the air plane a few years ago with women staffers. Video…..
Like we just joined another war in Yemen and not much but BS
I hope you mean that no day goes by without a Putin reference.
Just yesterday a new name was added to the list of NYT Putin bashers: Maxim Trudolyubov, who criticisms Putin for upgrading his military. Max doesn’t do irony.
The real barrier with any kind of cyberbullying, whether we’re talking about a teenager caught picking his nose or a presidential candidate talking about never being able to pass single payer, is that the person at the end of the line, the one whose eyes are supposed to be in judgment of the person hacked or exposed, needs to view the situation with a moment’s compassion. If we can do that, all motive for cruel and pointless intrusions evaporates. If we can’t, no procedural safeguard will matter, because the less information is exposed, the more people will get riled up by each thing that somehow does make it out.
Glenn Greenwald, I basically laughed and cried while reading both your articles.
The gall of these people to be upset. You are more democratic than I am: it’s manufactured outrage. Regardless of my personal feelings towards the current Dem candidate, there is no doubt that these emails are newsworthy and I commend your and the TI staff’s excellent reportage this week.
I watched my fave, Sean Hannity, kiss Julian Assange’s ass last week or the week before. He was gushing.
I’d say the only reason that this is a question is that it happened to the Democrats, the party of adults in 2016.
I had on msnbc last night, while working on my computer. I turned on the set after 6, which is when Rachel is on. Between her and O’Donnell, and trust me, I was more into my work than the “news,” all I heard about were the Trump women.
msnbc is almost totally beyond embarrassing in its bias and what’s odd to me is that they apparently don’t think about the future any more than any entrenched politicians.
Two hours of prime time and I didn’t (while admitting I may have missed it) hear “WikiLeaks” mentioned once. I sat down at 10pm.
They don’t owe anything to their viewers and they can choose the news because they are the ultimate arbiters of what is fair to report. Wrong! Their behavior as an organization and a “news” channel has left them with little credibility and each and every reporter or pundit so obviously on the Clinton train has no right to tell me anything once this election is over. I am done.
(Habits are hard to break. I like to veg out after work. When the commercials come on, I move the channel down one to Fox. Megan Kelly has been stellar during this election season.)
To your conversation, Chris Hayes was better than I anticipated (and I like the guy).
In general, since you have gotten a lot of push-back are explaining your rationale, it’s apparent that too many public people on television “news” are in entertainment.
Really, is John Podesta entitled to privacy? Well sure, at home with his family, but in business, especially when his business is electoral politics at the highest level, his conversations, conduct, advice, reactions, and behavior are of immense importance and interest to this country. So are his personal thoughts.
My former Democratic party doesn’t give a damn about anything other than this election and electing Hillary Clinton, and that the giddiness of the right and the agony of the left is a purely personal reaction and needs to be taken out of the realm of this reality.
Were the shoe on the other foot, the Dems would be celebrating the releases.
I amend:
…have gotten a lot of push-back AND are explaining your rationale,
one other media observation from experiencing the last 30 days in prior general elections (Presidential) …the complete and total fealty to partisanship and party is in the extreme. There just isn’t room for much critical thought, nuance or understanding…many media outlet’s tactic of praise ours persecute theirs is in full bloom.
Important to note, this would not be an endorsement for either candidate nor is it of the duplicitous system which hacked them into the spotlight.
Bravo. Nicely said.
Thank you.
Glenn, I’m seriously suggesting that you make the link of this post by you, with an excerpt, a Pinned Tweet.
Speaking of tweets, I tweeted about this precise Fail that Chris Hayes performed during the interview of what turned out to be your 3rd point: 3: “The more public power someone has, the less privacy they are entitled to claim. Well, Chris Hayes himself, during the interview (at about 6 minutes in) was grossly guilty of not spending a fraction of a second to listen to your answer about that very question which he put to you. So he, instead of listening to your full answer, screeched in response, incorrectly, to your first few words in answer: “Really! You really think that!” –Chris Hayes.
Chris Hayes is a multi million dollar “journalist” being paid, theoretically, for his critical thinking skills and for his ability, theoretically, to professionally conduct an interview, and yet: “some people [Chris Hayes included] reacted as though this was some bizarre, exotic claim – rather than what it is: the fundamental principle of journalism”–Glenn Greenwald
I meant to say Hayes’ question was at about 3 and a half minutes in, not 6 and change.
Kitt, I suspect, though I have no way to know, that some of the screeching we hear from folks like Chris Hayes, might be evidence of an over-identification they have with folks like John Podesta. Because, what I think I hear is the kind of defensiveness one might expect if Glenn Greenwald were offering the reasons to publish Chris Hayes hacked email had it fallen in the hands of WikiLeaks. If these pundits, operatives, and wannabes place themselves at the same/near level of importance/influence as Podesta and Clinton, then they feel those hacked emails as if they were their own; and defend accordingly. That cognitive interference, generated by over-identification (it’s a boundary problem; emotional if not just psycho-social), might suggest Hayes had trouble hearing 1/10th of what Glenn had to say.
I suspect, though I have no way to know, that some of the screeching we hear from folks like Chris Hayes, might be evidence of an over-identification they have with folks like John Podesta…. If these pundits, operatives, and wannabes place themselves at the same/near level of importance/influence as Podesta and Clinton, then they feel those hacked emails as if they were their own; and defend accordingly.
Those were my exact thoughts as well.
You know this has worked the other way too.
Governments have all to often “secretly released” information to the media in an effort to control the message, get out in front of a story, create a desired spin, induce smoke and mirrors to lessen the attention to a real event or when cornered badly, just declared war on some hapless state.
Just think about the current war rhetoric aimed at Russia. I sense someone in power feels they may need a war soon.
All of this is manipulation and if you think about the long-term impact – it is that ultimately no one will trust anything disseminated by the media. Information overload will destroy the value of true thought, reason and earned credibility. All will be smoke and mirrors and shadow puppetry.
In the advertising/politically funded media, their attempt to get the headline and desired story, the long-term credibility of “journalistic organizations” is being sacrificed – that is why I have stopped any critical thinking when reading the New York Times. They are no longer credible journalists – they are now a public/political relations firm.
There is a danger that the massive amount of possible digital data in this “information age” will eventually snuff out the concept of credibility, just by its sheer mass, timing and frequency. When the information load is so massive who do you believe with respect to content, timing and intent?
I sense that the general public (if there is such a thing) has lost confidence in any traditional establishment political party or news organization. We may be entering a purely Partisan World – devoid of independent thought or reasoning.
The US election, based wholly on voter turnout, will be telling.
Yeah, more than one someone. We’d better hope they limit the shenanigans to rhetoric and that they don’t push Russia too hard or far in the process (Russian officials already believe Killary wants war).
Starting a hot war with Russia would make “batshit crazy” seem like minor quirkiness.
As the signs on northern California beaches, warning visitors of the danger of the surf, say at the end: “Few survive.”
If history is any guide, thing can get pretty insane and illogical when career politicians, dictators, Kings, Queens or Emperors feel their power over their continued power is at stake.
We have a pretty “crazy” mix of people, personalities, partisanship and corporate cronies right now (not to even mention the economic mess)……….. and I have a sense that the US election – no matter which way it goes – will solve much of anything.
PS……….. after what we have seen and know so far, does anyone really thing that either candidate in the US election is NOT possible of “batshit craziness”?
All the bright and well-informed folks I know think they’re both even worse than that.
Of course, the percentage of voters who qualify as bright and well-informed is frighteningly small.
Here we go again;Only some are worthy voters.A very common theme among the exceptionalists.
And why do they drown on N west coast beaches?The surf,or the f*cking water is 2 % above freezing?I’ve been there,and I go with the latter.
East coast beaches are much more amenable.
As the Obama administration already recognized while resisting calls to escalate at the time of the Ukraine crisis, “hot war” makes no sense, and is not necessary. To pressure Putin, all that is required is to drive down the price of oil and gas for a long time.
Russia is a petrostate, and Putin buys off his oligarchic cronies and the public with mineral extraction wealth. U.S. policies that drive up supply (such as a beningn attitude towards fracking), and drive down demand (such as credits and research funds for clean energy, and, hopefully, a carbon tax) can do far more to destabilize the Putin regime than any cyber-retaliation, or military escalation. Certainly they do more damage than the FSB can do to us by screwing around at the margins of our elections.
And, as a bonus, other unsavory petrostates also get the shaft. This is a much more rewarding way of making war.
Why do you think “pressuring Putin” and “destabilizing” the Russian government is either a good thing or an appropriate effort for the US to undertake?
And, uh, as for “driving down the price of oil and gas for a long time,” for the umpteenth time: Shale Bubble
Fucking read and understand. And for shits and grins, Google, e.g., “Bakken depletion rates.”
Finally, in general, you don’t know Jack Shit about the reality of humanity’s energy future. Like many credulous cornucopians, you are inhabiting a fantasy world. Do your homework.
Yeah, that sort of economic pressure sure worked out great against Cuba, didn’t it? And the Iraq sanctions w/ bonus 500,000 dead children?
And just speaking as a human rather than a nationalist, I kind of more prefer our species continues to exist than awful things like fracking become ubiquitous as a tool by one shitty nation against another shitty nation.
Et tu Brute.
I don’t see any contradiction there. Mr. Snowden didn’t provide any documents directly criticizing Mrs. Clinton – so he failed to provide a public service. He has claimed he is motivated by respect for the Constitution. However, as all Trump supporters know, the purpose of the Constitution is to protect gun ownership. I fail to see how the documents that Mr. Snowden has released serve to advance that goal, so his references to the Constitution are obvious poppycock.
when leaks and hacks are sources the nature of reality comes into question
who do we trust
since i prefer name brands i say trust the name brand in leaks which is wikileaks
Don’t trust any of them, always know that the information presented has a probability of being true and a probability of being false. Wikileaks has by all accounts, an excellent track record of providing real, un-doctored documents, so the probability of it being true is much higher, but always be skeptical of everything put into public domain.
Clearly this is fraud, but committed by whom? By his advisers against Trump, by Trump against the Republicans voters, by Trump and the DNC against the whole of the electorate? Political opposition research on oneself is a sine qua non of American campaigning for high office, if it was not undertaken (apparently not even minimally) then one can safely assume the campaign was not genuine ab initio. This means that this presidential election there was no true election, at least from the time Trump became the Republican presidential candidate, but rather a pre-selection based on an inevitable mediatically-effected defenestration of the Trumpian sacrificial effigy from the zealously defended tower of political legitimacy: at this point Kim Jong-un has as much of a chance of being elected the next president of the United States as does Donald J. Trump.
I’m not sure attributing some grand conspiracy to Trump’s campaign, is more likely than simple gross stupidity and ineptness on the part of one Donald Trump and his advisers. As he is fond of saying he isn’t a “politician”.
Serious politicians with a serious desire to wield political power might, and generally would, do the things you suggest are the “sin qua non” of a political campaign, but it does not follow that the failure to do so renders Trump’s campaign “ungenuine” “ab initio”.
And not sure it really adds much to your argument to use impressive sounding words like “mediatically” or “defenestration”.
The best arguments are the simplest ones with the best objective proof and reason supporting them.
And if you really think the DNC and Democratic politicians are smart enough to pull off this sort of grand Manchurian conspiracy using Donald Trump, then you really haven’t been following Democratic Party politics and their institutional buffoonery for long enough. I mean that’s right up there with 9-11 trooferism BS. IMHO.
it may not be a grand conspiracy, just some sort of weird center-dominated gestalt
ie most members of the mainstream political class simultaneously decided to throw up a wall of freaky strawmen around hillary, trump being the most extreme example
most likely done to make her look more or less normal … we all want normal dont we
I would not disagree with the idea that the Clinton campaign politically did two things: 1) what they could to delegitimize the “mainstream” GOP candidates in the GOP primary in the hopes of setting up a situation where Ms. Clinton was teed up electorally against a loon (that’s smart politics and they had a deep GOP bench of whackos to assist them in that regard), and 2) once they had one teed up take advantage of that reality in any way they thought they could.
But I don’t believe this outcome was a function of active collusion between “centrist” Dems and “centrist” GOP members to manipulate and yield a Clinton v. Trump matchup. Not absent evidence anyway. And I’m not sure how they could pull it off anyway at the primary phase absent vote rigging among primary voters, and I’ve seen no evidence of that.
The whole thing is a fraudulent attempt to circumvent voters choice in demonizing zions worst enemy,American nationalism.
Any other explanation is poppycock.
And all those who applaud that circumvention because of their own prejudices,is an expose on the banality of evil.
While all of this sounds reasonable it doesn’t change the fact that the media reporting on these emails have become a stooge for Putin, doing his bidding. You can defend it all you want and while technically you are right you must realize that you are playing directly into Russia’s hands.
So if Putin would prefer the US elect, say, Jill Stein, we should instead elect a warmonger just to spite Putin?
That’s seems stupid. Maybe I’m misunderstanding you.
Also, wouldn’t you rather have your decisions affected by (be manipulated by) revealed truth rather than the manufactured BS like we’re all getting now (such as that we should worry about Putin)?
When will The Intercept add a “like” feature to it’s comment forum?
Like
And you know what else is really starting to irk me, places like Daily Kos and LGM who are permitted to basically libel Glenn Greenwald imputing positions to him he’s never held or stated in any venue.
Check out Glenn’s Twitter feed and the link to the hatchet job that was done on him by some Daily Kos member (since “updated” and “apologized” for, sorta), on the topic of journalistic integrity and the handling of leaks vs. hacks depending on the status or function in society of the object of the leak or hack. And as he discussed with Chris Hayes yesterday, also linked on Glenn’s Twitter feed and herein. I was disappointed Chris Hayes at times seemed to struggle with the relevant distinctions at times.
Glenn has maintained a totally coherent consistent (and nuanced) position on these topics throughout his writing, at least to the extent his writing implicates or relies upon leaks or hacks. Hell he had a detailed interview with Slate on most of these topics back in July of this year and has never deviated from his stated position.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/interrogation/2016/07/glenn_greenwald_on_donald_trump_the_dnc_hack_and_a_new_mccarthyism.html
Re: “Glenn has maintained a totally coherent consistent (and nuanced) position on these topics throughout his writing …” — Absofuckinglutely, and on so much else besides. Indeed, in my own judgement, pretty much all of his oeuvre these last many years has been informed by a rock-solid set of deeply principled first principles in a manner quite unique & almost peculiar to him within the domain of US journalism — furthermore, as a virtue altogether alien to the political domain upon which he relentlessly focusses his vitriol. — Bravo Greenwald.
Yup. Nailed it, succinctly, eloquently and elegantly.
Indeed.
Yep.
I am in full agreement with Mr. Greenwald’s points. This information ha been made public and it is the duty of the press to review it and interpret it as a public service.
There IS a larger question for me, though, and that is the specific timing that WikiLeaks has been choosing for these releases. The releases seem to be timed to do maximum damage to the Democratic Party, and there is at least slight evidence that they may be working in concert with Trump’s campaign.
That doesn’t discredit the data, it’s newsworthiness, or the obligation for reporters to relay significant information, but it may affect the overall credibility of WikiLeaks as an organization.
I cannot fully comprehend the schizophrenia of your first and last sentences.
May I suggest that you reread it.
The only things that should matter in affecting the overall credibility of WikiLeaks’ release is: Is it real (solid) and is it newsworthy?