Donald Trump’s accusers have had to run the gauntlet of victim-shaming since coming forward with their stories of being sexually assaulted or harassed by the Republican nominee for president. The effort to undermine their credibility in order to defend Trump has cast the widest of nets, pulling in a ragtag assortment of attackers, from estranged relatives to right-wing bloggers to social media trolls — and, ultimately, demonstrating precisely why so many victims choose to remain silent.
Trump himself has set the tone. “You take a look. Look at her. Look at her words. You tell me what you think. I don’t think so,” he said of Natasha Stoynoff, who said he sexually assaulted her in 2005. “Believe me, she would not be my first choice, that I can tell you. You don’t know. That would not be my first choice,” he said of Jessica Leeds, who said he groped her in the 1980s.
“Those stories have been largely debunked. Those people, I don’t know those people. I have a feeling how they came. I believe it was her campaign that did it,” Trump said at Wednesday’s debate.
On Thursday, as Trump’s newest accuser, Karena Virginia, described her 1998 assault in a press conference, doubters tweeted at her. “Attention seeking opportunist,” one wrote. She “looks like a tranny,” wrote another.
Few can handle attention they get when going public about being abused by powerful people–why few speak out. Listen to #karenaVirginia
— Jasmin Ramsey (@JasminRamsey) October 20, 2016
Last Friday, accuser Mindy McGillivray said she planned to leave the country. She stayed in a hotel to keep safe after she went public. “We feel the backlash of the Trump supporters. It scares us. It intimidates us. We are in fear of our lives,” she told the Palm Beach Post.
“She knows she’s BUSTED!” a reddit user posted on the Donald Trump subreddit.
On Saturday, Trump accuser Kristin Anderson told CNN’s Anderson Cooper she has been receiving hate mail. “I was very reluctant to come here and do this. This doesn’t benefit me in any way, you know. I’m getting hate mail now, so this does nothing for me,” she said.
Right-wing websites like the Gateway Pundit and GotNews have leapt to cast doubt on the accusers in any way possible. Both sites ran ran stories saying that Rachel Crooks’ accusations were false because a person posted on Facebook saying so.
GotNews went through the list of accusers and attempted to discredit or insult each one. The site calls McGillivray a “drunken child abuser” — an exaggeration at best; she was arrested in 2012 with charges of a DUI and child neglect because a child was in the car. It says Stoynoff “has rapist fixation, writes like she’s in 50 Shades Of Grey,” a stretch based on an apparent thank you letter for fan mail from Kirk Douglas and a photo taken with Mike Tyson, a rumored rapist and convicted rapist, respectively.
The Gateway Pundit piece that set out to “debunk” the allegations looked at a Facebook post by Trump where he said Summer Zervos recently asked him to visit her restaurant. The article asks: “If Trump did sexually harass Zervos, why would she be reaching out for help with her business by contacting him? Wouldn’t she be afraid and disgusted by him?”
Many of the denials have been issued through the Trump campaign, building on the candidate’s own frequent rejections of the claims at rallies.
The Trump campaign published a statement from Zervos’s cousin, John Barry, who characterized her statement as “nothing more than an attempt to regain the spotlight.”
The brother of Ken Davidoff, the photographer who had been informed by McGillivray of the Trump incident moments after she says she was groped, has been in contact with the Trump campaign as well. “I agreed to make a statement, hope they put both of you away,” Daryl Davidoff texted Ken.
Leeds, the woman who said Trump groped her on an airplane in the early 1980s, faced allegations from a man who claimed he was on the plane and knows she is lying. The man, Anthony Gilberthorpe, told Fox News: “Within the hour I had contacted Trump’s lawyers to tell them what I knew about this woman.”
Gilberthorpe has a “record of involvement in political scandal and unproved allegations,” according to the Guardian.
The efforts to discredit the accusers haven’t led any of them to back down.“Women are talking about this, and they need to,” Stoynoff told People Magazine. “We cannot be silent anymore. I didn’t tell my story for politics, I told it for women.”
Top photo: Gloria Allred and Karena Virginia enter a press conference where Karena Virginia identified herself as victim of sexual misconduct by Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump at a press conference at The London Hotel on Oct. 20, 2016, in New York.
I hope others mentioned this as well. But, this is why so many women who have been raped also don’t come forward. This isn’t just a Trump issue but the tip of an iceberg that is a much larger social problem where women who have been sexually violated can’t get justice for the crimes committed against them. And which political party is notorious for not taking women’s issues seriously? The Republicans of course! All of this is old news.
The smearing of Trump by devil worshippers continues.
Hey, Naomi….
Have you checked your BFs email, facebook, or cellphone?
You might be surprised about what he says behind your back.
Nobody who hires Gloria Alred has any credibility. If you want your accusations to be taken seriously, hire a real attorney.
Nobody whose story is supported by 10 other victims, AND the accused, suffers from a deficit of credibility.
Unlike the monsters that cheer on Rapey the KKKlown.
Yeah, 10 other “victims” who are just as believable as the liar who hired Gloria Alred. If they were actually sexually assaulted they should have immediately gone to the police, and the fact that they didn’t is proof that this is just a political attack.
And Bill Clinton is the only person associated with the Presidential race who has ever been accused of rape, Trump never has, so I assume that you’re just as hateful toward Slick Willy are you are toward Trump.
If Rapey the KKKlown didn’t want people to know that he is a serial sex assailant, then he shouldn’t have bragged so freely about THE FACT THAT HE IS A SERIAL SEX ASSAILANT.
Who in the fuck are you to tell women how they can report abuse or harassment? I truly hope you don’t have a daughter or a son for that matter
Slick Willy is not running for president. And what he did is disgusting. Almost as disgusting as what trump supporters are doing now. Did you read the article? These women have to stay in hotels and are getting nothing from coming out with allegations that fit trumps own words to a t. You disgust me
Trump supporters begin and end their stupid arguments with “but Clinton….”
and Clinton people pretty much have fallen back entirely on “but Trump…”
and I wish all of you people creepy enough to actually be enthusiastic about either of these horrible human beings would go to an island somewhere and do a reality show together where you all verbally (or literally) crap on each other, in any case something far away I don’t have to watch.
please get on that,
Vic
I just honestly could not agree with you more. UGH! Go kill each other, since you hate each other so much.
I just honestly could not agree with you more. UGH! Go kill each other on an island, since you hate each other so much.
As a pretext to addressing the faux outrage of the author over the “smearing” of alleged victims of Trump’s sexual aggression, a few facts should be noted:
1. The timing of these allegations automatically make them suspect. Had these women been truly offended, they should have filed charges at the time of their alleged assault. Even if no action was taken by the authorities at that time, the record would have reflected the degree to which the victim actually believed that the alleged aggression was a violation of law.
2. If any current accuser continued to associate with Trump after having been “assaulted”, then her current claim of outrage should be summarily dismissed.
3. If any of the alleged victims has a history of using her sex to advance her career, then her claim of outrage ought to be weighed in context.
4. If any of the alleged victims are politically aligned with the Clinton camp, then their current claim of outrage should be critically scrutinized as a product of political partisanship.
5. Trump is entitled to the presumption of innocence like everyone else. Aggressively challenging the veracity of the claims against him is essential because their is no time to adjudicate them in manner that would offset their intended effect with respect to the looming election date. None of these witnesses have filed a legal complaint of sexual assault against Trump.
6. Throughout the campaign season, we have become increasingly aware of the way in which the Clinton camp has habitually employed underhanded tactics to undermine its opposition. The DNC worked hand-in-glove with Hillary to undermine the Sanders’ campaign. Hillary’s main stream media contacts either ignored or intentionally underreported Sanders successes throughout the primary season. Polling agencies also chronically overestimated Hillary’s lead in the primaries in much the same way as they are currently heralding her alleged lead against Trump. The cozy relationship that Hillary enjoys with many MSM journalists allows for theses current unfounded allegations of sexual aggression to gain traction absent the usual level of scrutiny.
7. Prior to these allegations coming out, it was widely understood that the key demographic in this race would be the women vote. Although Hillary is technically female, she could not exclusively rely on that fact as her appeal to women was limited to those who closely mirrored her own level of education and income. Thus any significant shift in that extremely large demographic would have to be driven by a negative perception of Trump. Having been aware of the videotape of Trump for some time, wherein he is engaging in locker room braggadocio, a string of sexual allegations against him would have been perceived as a political necessity as they would serve as a message multiplier in the aftermath of the videotapes release. In short, this string of impeccably timed allegations will most likely prove to be the elements of a well orchestrated smear campaign against Trump. But because of the nature of October surprises, the political damage will have its intended effect as their are plenty of polically biased media outlets who will irresponsibly serve as Clinton’s henchmen under the rubric of advocacy journalism. And then their are those who would behave in like fashion due to their personal sffinity for identity and gender politics…
I was going to write something like this, but I was too fucking lazy.
Thank you Karl.
knuckle-dragging bros befoh hos yo
Stupid AND “fucking lazy” AND an advocate for serial sex assault?
And you imagine that PEOPLE should value your opinion?
Serial sexual assault? We were not talking about Bill Clinton! Or his wife, Hillary, the enabler.
Remember, not a single allegation about Trump has been proven. I find it absolutely amazing that those who claim to be civil libertarians are so quick to abandon those principles in the arena of partisan politics.
The defiant delusions of one sleazebag aren’t enough to offset the fact that the serial sex assailant ADMITTED TO SERIAL SEXUAL ASSAULT.
Rapey the KKKlown belongs in prison, and his supporters belong in a mental ward.
Thanks for so eloquently proving my point…
When you imply that you are unable to distinguish between an accusation and an admission, I BELIEVE YOU. You should savour your entirely believable feelings of triumph.
PEOPLE are willing to take a serial sex assailant’s word for it, when he ADMITS TO SERIAL SEXUAL ASSAULT.
Nonetheless, I’m happy to have introduced eloquence into your defiantly deluded life.
Trump did not admit to sexual assault nor has he been convicted of sexual assault. So you are factually in error. Anyway, not all human interactions need to be scrutinized for felonious intent. For example:
Years ago I was in a McDonalds with a friend (male) when woman came up behind him and grabbed his ass. He jumped up about three feet and turned around at which point the woman realized it was a case of mistaken identity. She turned very red and apologized.
No charges were filed.
What?!? You mean she didn’t just CONTINUE to grope him while he tried to get away from her?
At LEAST tell me you heard her bragging that she makes a habit of grabbing attractive men by the balls.
The defiant delusions of one sleazebag aren’t enough to offset the fact that the serial sex assailant ADMITTED TO SERIAL SEXUAL ASSAULT.
Rapey the KKKlown belongs in prison, and his supporters belong in a mental ward.
I suggest that you go back and read the transcript… Here let me save you the trouble Mona/Lisa:
Now what was that about “distinguishing between accusation and admission”? Saying that one CAN fly to the moon is totally different from saying, “I flew to the moon.” But hey, why should we let a little turn of phrase spoil the fun, eh Mona? You fucking sicken me!
EVERYONE other than you can identify which FIVE WORDS of that quote constitute a definitive statement of non-consensual sexual contact.
EVERYONE other than you understands what it meant to expand on that point.
You probably imagine that you’ve won some arguments in your life, but the fact is that people stop answering you, not because you’ve convinced them you’re right, but because you’ve convinced them that your stupidity is intentional and resolute.
NO ONE is interested in seeing how aggressively you can assert your idiocy.
I’m not surprised you’re still blubbering.
I’m not even surprised that you imagine every woman, who recognizes that you’re a piece of shit, is somehow the SAME woman.
The fact remains, that the defiant delusions of one sleazebag aren’t enough to offset the fact that the serial sex assailant ADMITTED TO SERIAL SEXUAL ASSAULT.
Rapey the KKKlown belongs in prison, and his supporters belong in a mental ward.
P.S. Get off Mona’s back, you psychotic cry-baby. Some people DON’T use multiple identities.
Yet you have failed to identify which five words constitute a definitive statement of non-consensual sexual contact. Hmmm… I wonder why?
Oh Mona Lisa, you do like non sequitur when logic or the truth is not on your side.
And yet here you are ONCE AGAIN begging me to take notice of your responses to my posts. Go figure.
Narcissistic sociopaths like yourself delight in others seeing through their manipulative machinations as they cannot tolerate being ignored. Sure, they will make a lot of pretentious noise when exposed, but they secretly delight in the belief that a few can actually appreciate them for the “brilliant pretenders” they they perceive themselves to be. People like yourself are so in love with their own image that they actually imagine their capacity for deceit is a measure of innate intelligence. Fucking pathetic!
Most of us recognize that the repetition of a lie by a liar is the only support that it will ever receive. The fact that you feel compelled to repeat this specious claim is rightly understood by the majority of us.
Oh yes Mona Lisa, you have reached the pinnacle of your game with this image. It never ceases to amaze me how little actual awareness the narcissistic sociopath has of their own condition. Like Wiener, you chronically masturbate on line with the hope that some naive passerby will actually reflect a level of adoration for you equal to your own.
You… I like you…
I couldn’t have put this better. Without proof it’s just public slander. No matter how much I hate Trump, and Hillary, I do not need to lie and make up reasons that they are literally the devil.
I appreciate the feedback and I agree with your current posture.
Personally, I don’t find it convincing that after a week and a half, a woman left her first three comments on this story, just to support your pro-sex-assailant stance.
After first doing two test runs, using two different names:
https://theintercept.com/2016/10/21/the-smearing-of-donald-trumps-accusers/?comments=1#comment-302535
https://theintercept.com/2016/10/21/the-smearing-of-donald-trumps-accusers/?comments=1#comment-302534
Oh Mona Lisa, do you actually believe that you are the only one that dons multiple disguises? Unlike you, I do not post to ingratiate myself to others (ahem Glenn Greenwald). I only endeavor to give a clear voice to an honest opinion. If people like what I say then I appreciate their clarity of vision. If people find legitimate fault with my arguments, then I appreciate their correction as well. When I am wrong I apologize without excuse. When I am right, I back down from no one – especially those like yourself who feed the undying compulsion to manipulate others under the false pretext of doing some greater good..
Here is the last accuser before the porn star one. To me she is doing a hit job. She blogs for huffington post. Hufpo is committed to destroying trump. It is scary how people will do ANYTHING to take out Trump. Vote Jill Stein
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/author/karenavirginia-567
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/karena-virginia-trump-accuser_us_5808e9aae4b0dd54ce38b5de
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/secrets-to-radiance-with-kundalini-yoga_us_576e720ae4b0fa01a1401526
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/karena-virginia/the-1111-miracle_b_6815710.html
I’m wondering what political party these women belong to. Why didn’t they file complaints against Trump at the time of the alleged incidents? Most likely because they never happened.
Doubting that that behaviour occurred – even after it has been corroborated by 11 different women AND by their assailant – just isn’t sane.
The reason women don’t come forward is because of you.
The coalition of the vagina.
Why won’t Hillary condemn female genital mutilation in the Muslim countries and now a practice growing here in the US? Is the mutilation of millions of young girls a diversity issue or could it me the millions pocketed by Clinton from the Muslims?
I have been reading the comments in this section. I am even still shocked right here in Uganda , that Americans who we admire can justify and continue to say that Trump is being treated unfairly. I have watched the American campaigns from Uganda and quite Frankly it seems to me no one needs to smear Trump. He does it perfectly by himself. We are just gobsmacked here in our primitive Africa!! Do some Ameicans really think that Trump is not crazy with all the wild childish comments and behaviour??!! Wow… I think our politicians are not bad at all. I am even amazed that some people think that saying Bill Clinton did the same, is a fault of Hillary’s ….. Can you very intelligent Americans explain this to us here in Africa? Cause I am trying to make sense of it and I cannot. Hillary the victim of an unfaithful husband is blamed for the prblems of her cheating hubby???
“Hillary the victim of an unfaithful husband is blamed for the prblems of her cheating hubby???”
No…. Hillary defended a child rapist in court and won. She laughed about the fact that his passing a polygraph test convinced her never to trust polygraphs again (because she knew her client was guilty).
Relating to Bill, she dismissed and smeared the names of his accusers, though she has said that “Every survivor of sexual assault deserves to be heard, believed, and supported.”
Let’s see. Trump is accused of kissing and/or groping eleven women. Clinton is known to have caused the death of eleven thousand civilians in Libya. Yet all of the article about Trump’s indiscretions instead of Clinton’s war crimes. I guess kissing is considered worse than killing in today’s America.
Let’s see, you’re a foreign policy expert who knows that Qaddafi would have killed fewer than that. Okay, next but be careful that your knee doesn’t hit your chin when it jerks like that. The world is a tad more complicated than you know, Ed.
Hillary voted for the Iraq war. That should have disqualified her this time around, just as it did in 2008.
She’s a war hawk who is now saber rattling against Russia, to deflect attention from the Wikileaks emails.
Rapey the KKKlown supported the Iraq war, too.
Disqualify them both.
He’s a nuke-happy, torture-loving cartoon of a racist dictator – who is also a liar, cheater, charity-robber, tax avoider, billion-dollar-loser and serial bankrupter – as well as a serial sex-assailant.
And so what if he had!? The nation state is obliged to protect it’s people from harm, and sometimes this obligation requires the state to put down a violent revolution with force, you know, like the US did.
According to you, when those moderate Al-Qaeda head-choppers run amuck in maybe Paris of Frankfurt, the state should just roll over and let them chop heads, rape and stone women because it would be such a dire crime against humanity to have the army shoot the bastards!?
Come to think about it, I am pretty sure that the US will arm and provide air cover for those monkeys too. Because RUSSIA and Putin and Putin must pay a price.
If there was a God, the witch and the carrot-top would both get annihilated by a meteor strike on Langley, Virginia.
Assuming the allegations are true, Trump offered money for sex to a woman whose profession it is to perform sex acts for money on screen. This is news? How about ‘Trump buys bread from a bakery?’ Amounts to about the same thing.
Now let’s talk about how women fare in countries whose political realities have been affected by the actions of Secretary Clinton. Does anyone think women are better off in Honduras? Libya? Syria? Ukraine? Bombing & societal collapse are a bit worse than an unwelcome proposition don’t you think?
Agree 100% . Actually I’d expand your list: does anyone think women are better off because of Hillary Clinton in Iraq, Afghanistan, or the United States?
Ah yes, Haven Monahan. Glad the facts precede the outrage.
The only good thing about this election is watching you guys lose like the dim, bigoted spoilsports you are. Stay classy you fucking morons.
It almost makes up for what a drag it is to see the corrupt Democrats go unpunished.
Haha…”You guys lose”
At the end of this election, everyone loses. You mad??…or just morally/ethically bankrupt?
Please don’t besmirch the reputation of this delicate flower who has bravely come forward….SHE’S A PORN STAR.
Responding to the 11 women who have bravely come forward (so far), as “she’s a porn star,” displays multiple, competing, forms of idiocy.
1) Those 11 women are not ALL porn stars, let alone are they all ONE porn star.
2) No woman is required to be a “delicate flower” in order to qualify for her RIGHT not to be assaulted.
3) You are not entitled to assault porn stars.
Hey Jim, buddy: you suck, man!
So yor boy gets a hardon for some porn babes (easy pickings, huh?), grabs and kisses them. Picks a Lucky One; offers her bucks, a ride on the big jet.
Can’t blame her for having taste.
It previously had been the pattern that the woman was married, which made many people think that Donny wanted to fuck the husband (or just fuck him over?), too. Even then, I didn’t know, too sick. Now… Well.
So once again, we are talking about this stuff to distract people from what everyone should really pay attention to.
1. What has Clinton achieve in 30+ years?
2. What has happened in foreign countries (especially Libya and Syria) when she was Secretary of State?
3. Who armed Isis in the first place and how does it link to the death of Ambassador Stevens?
4. Why is there $6 Billion dollars missing in the State department under her tenure?
5. 2days ago, why did she transfer $1.8 Billion from the Clinton Foundation to Qatar?
6. What does her foundation hide?
7. Why did she sell 20% of US Uranium to Russia?
8. Why are people from Haiti (including their ex President) accusing the Clinton Foundation to steal 94% of the Haiti relief donation made worldwide?
9. Why were the Clinton on the Panama offshore shell company list ?
10. Why are all the mainstream media so biased and not talking about any of the above?
11. Why is HRC saying one thing to the people in public and the opposite behind the curtains when addressing the banks?
12. Who are these donors for her foundation? From what county? And what do they represent? What are their interests?
13. Who is George Soros? What is he known for? what are his companies? Why is he such a good friend of the Clintons?
14. Who are Jesse Williams, Tim Wise, Sidney Blumenthal, Huma Abedin, George Stephanopoulos, any high-level Saudi official and why are they tied to Hillary Clinton and her foundation?
14. What is Teneo holdings company and why are they hired by the DNC? What services do they provide?
15. Why not a word on Project Veritas, smearing wikileak, J. Kerry shutting down Assange’s internet (if wikileak is such an unreliable source)?
16. Why not a word on the fact that:
24 M voter registrations are no longer valid or significantly inaccurate
1.8 M dead people voting
2.75M registered in more than 1 state
17. Why US war in Syria despite:
-NO DECLARATION OF WAR BY CONGRESS
-NO AUTHORIZATION OF MILITARY FORCE FROM CONGRESS
-NO UN SECURITY COUNSEL RESOLUTION
-NO PERMISSION FROM LAWFULLY ELECTED GVT OF SYRIA TO ALLOW US MILITARY IN SYRIA
18. Why Russia just sent 40+ Million civilians in anti nuclear bunkers for a 3 days drill (October 4-7)
19. Why US and NATO has been moving heavy military equipment and “anti missiles system” all around Russia for a few months
20. Why last week, Obama just signed an executive order to prepare for “Space Wether Events” (October 13)
.
.
.
…. and the list goes on and on and on… but some still want to talk about some allegations (at this point, that is what it is) that even People magazine hardly covers any more!!! !!! !!! !!! !!! Wake up and grow a brain fast cause anyone wasting their time on such crap article clearly has no idea of what’s going on right now. NO IDEA.
Lousy attempt at a misdirect, Sparky. So pay no attention to the man behind the curtain who has no character and morals at all, and wants to be the first dictator in US history? No chance of that happening ever.
This entire article is a lousy misdirect. That’s not a man behind the curtain; it’s a woman. And Trump is the gigantic false head projection. As Clinton’s team puts it, Trump is their pied piper.
You mewl, “Once again, we are talking about this,” as if you are a helpless captive of this article.
You have the entirety of the internet to explore, and what you aimed yourself at was THIS article, about THIS subject.
Your complaint is NOT that those other subjects are not being written about, because they ARE. Your complaint is that THIS subject is ALSO being written about.
Learn how to scrutinize TWO people, fuckwit.
Otherwise you find yourself in positions like this, where you’re very heavily implying that the public doesn’t need to know that a nuke-happy, torture-loving cartoon of a racist dictator – who is ALSO a liar, cheater, charity-robber, tax avoider, billion-dollar-loser AND serial bankrupter – is ALSO a serial sex-assailant.
It is ENTIRELY relevant that a presidential candidate doesn’t possess the impulse control to NOT attack women.
It is ENTIRELY relevant that a presidential candidate’s ONLY consideration is for what he can “get away” with.
It is ENTIRELY relevant that a presidential candidate’s idea of how to fix the problem he caused by physically attacking people, is to attack them verbally, too.
There is also the entirety of the internet—God help us—to explore the women who are bravely coming forward to speak about Donald Trump. This is not ground-breaking news. It does not give us a unique or deeper understanding of current events.
We get it. Our mainstream choice is between a sexual predator-in-chief and an enabler-in-chief of a sexual predator. Can The Intercept forgo this kind of herd journalism dreck and stay on the kind of stories that has made it a standout since its inception?
The notion that the Intercept has stopped doing excellent journalistic work is absurd. The Intercept is consistently intelligent and informative. (The Code of Silence series was outstanding.)
Likewise, there are NOT countless other stories about the media’s campaign of defamation against these women.
It is NEWS that these women, who have come forward for the good of the country, have been so threatened by their assailant’s supporters, that at least one of them has been forced to FLEE the country that she sought to forewarn.
Furthermore, I think the way these women are being treated, illustrates the NEED to shed light on this habitually-ignored FACT of sexual assault.
If you consider victim-shaming/defaming irrelevant NOW – even under these extreme circumstances, where their assailant has ADMITTED to a HABIT of sexual assault – then you will likely NEVER have any interest in changing this cultural defect of ours.
The fact that in our culture, women are first assaulted by a drooling goon, and then absolutely savaged by the apes they report it to, is why women generally don’t report these life-altering crimes.
I would argue that it takes this level of exposure to draw attention to that FAILING of American society.
I did not say The Intercept has stopped doing excellent journalism. My point is that the story is just another take on what became widely available after the terrible “locker room talk” video was released. If you think there are not countless stories about the attempt by media to defame these women, you are miscounting. I did say that these women are brave for coming forward and they are. There seems to be an unusually strong reaction by people who say they support Trump in this election cycle. The reaction these women are facing now is far more terrible than my mild description of it.
I also did not say their stories are irrelevant. These stories are never irrelevant and always important. No matter how one spins it, however, the timing of their coming out is suspect. The destruction of the Trump candidacy would have been far better for the county if it began earlier, in the primary say.
We’ll see how the predatory practices of Donald Trump play after the election. He is the most valuable click-bait property since the invention of the internet. The media is happy to use this anti-woman meme to keep him out of the White House, but will it want to keep him off the internet? I just Googled Kardashian, 227,000,000, and Trump, 715,000,000.
Finally, it seems nothing is going to keep the presidency, now, from someone who has enabled her husband to treat women in the same manner as Trump treats women. This is no victory for feminism or the safety of women. It would be a farce if it weren’t such a tragedy.
You contend that you “did not say that their stories are irrelevant,” however you DID assert that this article should not have been written. That’s a distinction without a difference.
I’m perfectly willing to accept that I simply got the wrong impression of your opinion of The Intercept, when I read, “Can The Intercept forgo this kind of herd journalism dreck.”
My observation of the herd was that it gang-attacked the women who came forward; mainly by claiming that their timing was suspect.
Today, you said, “These women are brave for coming forward,” but then clawed that right back, when you said, “the timing of their coming out is suspect.”
The reason they came forward when they did, is because they heard their assailant LAUGHING about the fact that he makes a HABIT of sexual assault.
When the I’m-proud-to-be-a-serial-sex-assailant video was released, it was only a matter of time before some of his victims decided that the country needed to know that that wasn’t “just talk.”
The women’s timing is the LEAST mysterious development EVER.
It is the release of the video that dictated the victims’ timing, and releasing the video at the most strategic moment for Clinton, is neither shocking nor offensive.
I have no love for Clinton, but I have no criticism of THAT. She simply isn’t required to save the Republican Party from itself.
Moreover, if I had the power to knock one of them out in the primaries, it would have been Clinton. Sanders could have been a genuinely HEALING influence on America.
the Deki Smokton Smackdown by Lisa
I especially like your use of the word “mewl” with “as if you are a helpless captive of this article” —- describes so many lame comments on this site and everywhere
YOU, Dirtbag Deki, are great evidence that fascists cannot survive without treating women badly.
You know, I’m not for Trump, I don’t think these things are all justified, but in today’s climate it’s positively a *relief* to see that somebody is still thinking about some issues and not going entirely with innuendo, talking heads, ad hominems and guilt by association. The Clintons are crooked but I think Trump is crookeder, so I’ll give you the foundation. More importantly I’ll give you the Russians, but I lack confidence in Trump knowing how to deal with Russia even as well as Hillary, which is saying something. I don’t get what the deal is with Soros. I signed up for some newsletter he sends out and every six months or so he maunders on about something or other nobody cares about. He backs organizations that don’t seem particularly radical, and he’s only one of a bunch of billionaires, some of whom like Thiel seem to be a lot more involved in political affairs with vastly more sinister effect. With so much financial inequality the thumbprints of the billionaires are on everything, even The Intercept, and we know it’s all crooked and we know it’s the only game in town. Who else owns anything you ever heard of? And as for the uranium deal, well: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/jun/30/donald-trump/donald-trump-inaccurately-suggests-clinton-got-pai/ It’s basically the same situation – so few billionaires, everything is connected to everything else. Supposedly Russia doesn’t get control of American uranium, though the article I cite admittedly doesn’t look into the possibility of them, say, getting very fine-grained data on trace impurities present so that they can better check to see if, say, an accidental nuclear explosion at a North Korean lab might look like it contained a bomb made with American uranium. (No, we’d never do something like that to a peaceful self-sufficient country, course not…)
“The Clintons are crooked but I think Trump is crookeder”
based on what exactly????
Before I get started… before _all_ the recent allegations, there was the situation with Trump and Epstein – one of whose known victims (Virginia Roberts) was working as a locker attendant at Trump’s Mar-A-Lago. See http://www.dailywire.com/news/5556/7-things-you-need-know-about-trump-and-sex-slave-amanda-prestigiacomo .
But that is just petty personal wick-dipping, and we want something meatier. So how about how Trump got his start as a “brilliant businessman” — using his father’s money to set up a real estate deal based on a promise from the New York mayor that “what the Trumps want, the Trumps get in this town”. Trump joked that the mayor promised him 40 years with no property taxes because he didn’t ask for 50. Now it should be obvious that whether Trump is a genius or not, you’d have to be pretty stupid to try to sell real estate in the same market if you don’t have that much friendship from the mayor, because who wants to buy a property you pay taxes on?
Trump pays no property taxes, no state taxes, no federal taxes, and says that this shows he’s smart. Just like groping a woman, if he did it, would show that he was virile and when he sees an opportunity he goes for it! He has all the capital to make a deal here and there – campaign finance is a joke. If someone wants to give him 5 million dollars they just pay that much more or ask that much less on a real estate deal and nobody can say boo about it, and then he can put that down on his “self-financed” campaign.
That doesn’t mean Bill and Hillary aren’t crooks, or even that he wasn’t getting busy at Epstein’s special party, nor that Hillary never issued a harsh word to back him up. But relatively speaking, I think Trump is wholesale filthy, while I remain doubtful that the Clintons are anything more than the usual Arkansas level of crooked politician.
Maybe the fact that Trump has assets, a brand and a business while the Clinton’s after 30 years are still managing to be flat-out broke, thus forced to whore themselves out to moneyed interests and even nick furniture and fittings from the White House.
Your satire is on point.
Hillary Clinton is married to serial rapist…and if he gets in the white house again, the maids arnt safe.
Maybe you do some real reporting you idiot instead of this Trump bashing you been on…dummy up SFB!
Those rape charges were dug into at taxpayers expense twenty years ago by republicans and didn’t hold up.
Besides, Bill is not running.
Comment considering rape charges is not true! Bill is not running, but he will be part of the administration, as Hillary has said that Bill would be put in charge of the economy. There are rumors that he asked to be put in charge of the intern program, only rumors.
There was no investigation into the rape charges that found that they were true or untrue! Bill will be an important part of the Hillary administration, as she has said that Bill would be in charge of the economy.
So it’s not the fault of Bill’s sexual exploits that caused such a taxpayer drain??
Also,
“My husband . . . I’m going to put in charge of revitalizing the economy because you know, he knows how to do it.” -Hillary
I’d be more inclined to believe them if Gloria wasn’t involved with 50 cameras and days before election.
Doubting that that behaviour occurred – even after it has been corroborated by 11 different women AND by their assailant – just isn’t sane.
I’ve been groped and the asshole who did it ended up on his knees in an arm lock being laughed at by his buddies. Now, not everyone has the training to do that, but many if not most women aren’t the fragile flowers that some of these women appear to be either.
Having said that, wrt timing and the issue of “why now”, there are a lot of things that can play into that:
– power differentials are incredibly stifling so it matters if you are still subject to that. Once you are no longer in a subordinate position you may feel safer reporting.
– societal norms regarding how we treat women who have been assaulted are changing and have been for the past 20 years.
– and the level of power that Trump is aspiring to now can change the calculus, both for the woman and the country, so the stakes are now much, much higher.
Anita Hill comes to mind for me. She was subject to harassment at a time when women had little hope of being able to bring successful charges against men who held superior positions to their accusers (which was her situation at the time it happened). Why did she finally come forward? Because she wanted the nation to understand what kind of man they were about to put on the highest court in the nation. Prior to then he’d only exercised power in much smaller, limited venues but the stakes had changed. Dramatically so. Instead of Thomas making decisions that affected a limited number of underlings, he would be making decisions – including ones affecting all women in the country – with incredibly broad power implications. Hill felt that overruled whatever concerns had kept her quiet until then. And she paid a huge price, scrutinized with extreme prejudice before the highest lawmaking bodies in the nation and then having that scrutiny plastered all over the media.
So, while there may be some among those women who have hopes of some sort of notoriety or financial reward now in light of his candidacy, there may also have been legitimate, historical reasons for these delays as well. And, as far as I’m concerned, if the accusations are true, then there can be no more ironic justice than for these women to take advantage of the potential for celebrity in exactly the manner that Trump has himself, in the process punishing him for all the years he successfully used his status to treat them like objects existing solely for his own personal gratification.
And for those who require it: Yeah, same for Bill fucking Clinton and anyone else besides these two who took advantage of Jeffrey Epstein’s Lolita Express (I’m looking at you Alan Doucherwitz).
Those who are skeptical of the timing, if they are thoughtful and decent skeptics, are not focused on the possible or imagined motivations of the alleged victims. Rather, they are interested, as am I, in the distinct possibility of planned behind-the-scenes involvement by the Clinton campaign and its many allies.
If the discovery and release of the “Access Hollywood” tape, just at the moment in campaig-time that it occurred, was accidental and coincidental. . . well, it’s possible, of course.
So what do you call what Hillary did to bills accusers? If we’re supposed to believe trumps accusers with no evidence, why are we not supposed to believe bills accusers?
Trump bragged about doing the very things he’s accused of. His accusers confirm that he was telling the truth. You can choose to believe the accusers or you can choose to believe Trump’s full of shit — your choice. All you do by bringing up Bill Clinton is suggest that Trump is not the only human being in the world who’s behaved badly.
If you’re trying to suggest that Hillary is somehow responsible for Bill’s behavior, then by that logic Melania is responsible for Trump’s. If you believe that to be true, then you’re suggesting Trump’s a mentally challenged man-toddler with a legal guardian for a wife, and while I’m inclined to agree, I don’t think that’s the argument you want to make.
=== TRUMP’S BEST CAMPAIGN AD EVER Just Came From Barack Obama…ENJOY http://endingthefed.com/trumps-best-campaign-ad-ever-just-came-from-barack-obama-enjoy-video.html#.WAq_vFYLApZ.facebook
“Just Came…”
From the 2008 Democratic primaries.
You people are such imbeciles.
Are personal attacks and poop throwing your normal method of debate?
A moron, who can’t get through a single line of text without doing a face-plant into a puddle of his own drool, can’t be ‘debated’.
Likewise, neither can the mewling buffoon that leaves a comment just to CRY that people should be nicer to the monsters who LIE on Rapey the KKKlown’s behalf.
A Mona clone,women gone mad over gender nonsense.
Assange grabbed some pussy,and so did Bruce Springsteen,but they are heroes but Trump is a zero.
JFK grabbed a whole lot also,but again,he is a hero.
All they are are men with power,that women will degrade themselves over.Human nature.
A Norman Bates clone doesn’t respect me?
Oh.
Good.
I just heard you can book one or a bunch of rooms at Trump’s hotels (877-458-7867). And if you happen to change your mind, if you cancel 24 hours in advance, you are not charged a penny. Seems like that could wreak havoc. I mean, if large blocks are canceled at the last minute, over and over again. Do you think they wait in suspense to see if you intend to keep the reservation or will cancel them all?
Is the manly looking thing in the white dress what he allegedly assaulted? Didn’t Hillary Clinton smear Bill Clinton’s rape victims? I’m not for sexual assault, but why make baseless allegations public until proven true?
Re-read your sentence please.
Baseless allegations until proven true.
Think about that…
Clearly if proven true they could not be baseless.
Sounds like you don’t need proof, you have already decided
Trumps own words work against him. The smear campaign is not against his accusers, it’s against him, and it’s trash. We don’t need another smear campaign that works AGAINST rape prevention to keep the moronic masses engaged. Despite what the media tells us, there IS an Optimal Time to come forward, and potential victims need to know that. The Optimal Time is Immediately After. You want the Optimal Police Report and Rape Kit. If you don’t report the crime, your credibility will suffer. Come forward with an accusation on your deathbed and I’ll support you – it might take that long and there’s no blame on you. But I can’t support a media selling the message that any accusation, of any kind, should be taken at face value. That’s stupidity, it’s dangerous, and reasoning people smell the bullcrap in the air. The media has no problem with your daughter getting raped and not understanding that she DOES need to report. They are the real enablers here.
Trump’s own words work against him. There’s no need for a smear campaign – not one that works AGAINST rape prevention. Despite what the media tells us, there IS an Optimal Time to come forward with an accusation of sexual assault, and potential victims need to know that. The Optimal Time is Immediately After. You want the Optimal Police Report and Rape Kit. If you don’t report the crime, your credibility will suffer. Come forward with an accusation on your deathbed and I’ll support you – it might take that long and there’s no blame on you. But I can’t support a media selling the message that any accusation, of any kind, should be taken at face value. That’s stupidity, it’s dangerous, and reasoning people smell the bullcrap in the air. The media has no problem with your daughter getting raped and not understanding that she DOES need to report. They are the real enablers here.
? ?
It astounds me when people suggest these women have anything to gain, apart from the wrath of every knuckle-dragging alt-right misogynist nibbling out of the palm of Trump’s tiny hand. Bottom line: it’s fucking humiliating being on the receiving end of some handsy douchebag’s sense of entitlement. Know what would compound that humiliation? Making it public.
(1) Trump was caught bragging about his shitty behavior, and (2) Trump had both the hubris and stupidity to deny he ever acted like an entitled, objectifying, ass-grabbing prick. If he’d owned his behavior, nobody would’ve cared. But he didn’t.
It isn’t about cops and lawsuits–it’s about his character. It’s about the way he apparently gets off on degrading and humiliating women, something plenty of us put up with and rarely mention because we’re afraid of making a fuss, or we’re afraid of looking weak, or we’re afraid of losing our job or setting off some batshit vindictive freak. So we dismiss it and play it cool and keep it to ourselves, but there’s only so much you can expect someone to take. When Trump was stupid enough to brag about grabbing women with his tiny sausage fingers, then stupid enough to deny it in front of tens of millions of people, of course women were going to come forward, because… fuck that guy. In some cases, they came forward because they felt it was the right thing to do, in other cases they were pissed. Either way, it was Trump’s doing. He gave them a reason to speak the fuck up.
I mean, seriously. This isn’t rocket science and it sure as hell isn’t some nefarious plot. Act like enough of an entitled, ass-grabbing prick and eventually someone’s going to get tired of pretending like you don’t make them fucking sick.
Then a court of law is where this belongs. Not in front of 109 cameras with Gloria, days before a major election. All of Clinton accusers and victims went through the courts
If you want to enhance your credibility as a victim, one of the first steps should be to hire an attorney other than Gloria Allred.
While I have no reason to doubt the veracity of the women’s claims, I think everyone with a lick of common sense should be wondering how and why this scandal emerged just in time to push the WikiLeaks email releases into a deep, dark corner.
It’s called stragety.
Look over here….hey…..I got your watch.
Of course those people would hang on to their stories…or permit them to be hung on to until they had maximum damage value. If htat dude grabbed my ass I would be truly pissed off about it and would with great glee sign my self up with a ball buster lawyer. Just the way this stuff works.
If any of these women had charged Trump in a vacuum..individually….outside of a campaign and before his public self appointment to sainthood…he would have eaten their bank accounts for lunch and sent them packing. But now? They are now attacking from safer ground….with maximum damage inflicted….and with any payout maximized. To think any other way is naive.
If I could cause maximum damage to the man who sexually assaulted me, I would do so in a heart beat.
And he would deserve it
I completely agree. It’s suspicious. And, Trump is the sort of person who would jump (too eagerly, even) to deny things that he did not do… Which he did. Sigh… he knows how to make a fool of himself, but it’s almost too innocent. He is more reliable in terms of honesty compared to Clinton.
Because hundreds of women heard their assailant LAUGHING about his habit of sexual assault, and a small percentage of them felt a duty to come forward.
That’s “how and why,” monster.
Exactly.
I don’t get this failure to grasp a simple cause-and-effect relationship. I also don’t get why anyone would consider Bill Clinton a legitimate defense for Trump’s behavior. I know it’s Trump’s attempt to deny he’s anything like the man he’s claimed to be, but it’s the sort of nonsensical defense you’d expect from a young child.
Not really. They knew that was already the case.
Done for political propaganda by a woman criminal.
Clintonemail.com to talk to criminals. 43+ years and she cannot even manage a LibbeyLight but tales $12MILLION for the ClintonFoundation from Morocco King who has his unemployed males SETTING THEMSELVES ON FIRE OUT OF DISTRESS!
I donot think groping is of interest here and now?
If it had been important to them, they needed to stand up and say so back when it happened.
It is not relevant now.
This is typical behavior of most men, even more so when they are wealthy.
And yes, there are women who provoke and throw themselves before weakthy men.
Think golddigger is a common term, among others.
That’s how and why in your mind, which, judging from the tone of your post, is a mind mired in identity politics.
To a mind accustomed to observing and analyzing the patterns and practices of US election politics, that’s not only not clear, it’s rather doubtful.
Further, assuming that all those alleged victims (hundreds?) were, indeed spurred to come forward solely by the release of the creepy and disgusting audio recording, the timing of that release was so helpful to the Clinton campaign that it was merely coincidental is to believe in coincidence more than is prudent.
Now, go consider the possibility that you instantly believe what you have conditioned yourself to believe, with little examination.
Ad hominem, self-aggrandizement, straw-man, belittlement, to you, too.
Regarding your straw man: No one doubts that the recording was released strategically.
If that was what you meant to say, then you should have cited the recording, instead of EXPLICITLY citing the WOMEN.
That is not what you did.
What you did, was to suggest that the victims “credibility” needed “enhancing,” in your first sentence, and then point out the fact that you “have no reason to doubt the veracity of the women’s claims,” before IMMEDIATELY casting doubt on their veracity, by questioning the timing.
In case you’re unaware of it, you didn’t mention the recording AT ALL.
Are you all caught up, now? Do you (for instance) understand that ‘Roch’ is confident that he/she/it is defending YOUR point?
Now that you’ve clarified (changed) your weaselling:
The fact that the recording was released strategically, DOES NOT MITIGATE the fact that your nuke-happy, torture-loving cartoon of a racist dictator – who is ALSO a lying, cheating, charity-robbing tax avoider, billion-dollar-loser AND serial bankrupter – is ALSO a serial sex-assailant.
NOW do you understand, monster?
You are a clueless moron, a rude one. Further, in case “ignoramus” and “imbecile” are not understood to be included in the term, “moron,” you are both of those.
Now, go research Dunning-Kruger Syndrome — and fuck yourself.
Need a tissue?
Please try to be more thorough in your reporting or you risk giving The Intercept the appearance of being biased journalism.
No mention of the existence of Bill Clinton’s accusers? How could you not mention Juanita Broaddrick, who Bill Clinton raped in 1978 and Hillary Clinton intimidated into silence? Unlike many of the women coming forward on both sides, she actually has a witness who found her with her pantyhose torn and a bloody lip from him biting her into submission shortly after Bill left.
Interview with Juanita Broaddrick https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHh73fkDUIs
And the DNC, represented by chair Donna Brazile, doesn’t want to talk about rape victims if they say the name “Clinton” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaIVvGK082A
Trump MUST be guilty of who knows what terrible thing he did to them…he is a MAN after all, a cry of a woman and the PC media rushes with the pitchforks; they remained in silence of this terrible, terrible deeds for years….could they not give him a smack then? How defenceless were they…were we not told that women are as strong if not more than men? Do they need a police officers each time they go around? Could they not press charges of who knows what back then? Did the media ask them WHY NOW?
LOL
John…recall that he said he gropes and does not ask for consent. It is on record
If you have evidence of a crime, take it to a prosecutor. If you don’t have evidence, it is he said vs. she said with no way to prove anything . . . and it’s not crime. Most women, who aren’t of the Princess Snowflake variety, can deal handily with men getting fresh without making it into a federal case. It is about as annoying as flat tire, maybe less.
Meanwhile, Julian Assange is still trapped in the Ecuadoran embassy (four years!) on trumped up charges of “sexual assault.” And Bill Clinton’s illegitimate son, Danny Williams, is suing in paternity case. Meaning, if Hillary gets elected, we will have a “Deadbeat Dad” in the White House.
Why is your country so full of idiots like you that are the banner carriers for a bozo like trump. The story was disproven years ago. Trump is a loser and people like you who spread false stories deserve no respect at all.
http://www.snopes.com/bill-clinton-illegitimate-son/
Snopes lays the facts out, and calls the claim “Unproven”. http://www.snopes.com/bill-clinton-illegitimate-son/
Yes. But it could be proven or dis-proven fairly easily. Unlike the he-said she-said tittle-tattle. Where is the pressure on Bill Clinton to “man-up” and take a paternity test? Does he deny “having sex with that woman.” Why not put him on the record now and THEN have the paternity test?
There is no consistency by the media on these and other topics. Like human rights for example. African countries are starting to withdraw from the International Criminal Court. They claim it is merely a ruse to subjugate Africa.
American Exceptionalism appears centered around Lies and Hypocrisy. The Clintons are Made Members of the Media Mafia. They can get away with anything. This sort of stuff doesn’t end well usually.
http://www.diretube.com/articles/african-countries-start-withdrawal-from-icc_13750.html
Yes, agree.
CrookdClinton certainly hung on to Prezporno bc he was Potusa and she was not going to walk away at any cost!
PrincessDi, TinaTurner and countless others walked out of bad situations and started over on their own–Hillary did not do that or acccomplish anything on her own BUT–
1. Clintonemail.com to talk to criminals
2. Destroy the DemParty by making it the DOUBLECROSS PARTY
3. Doublecrossed PresObama and put him and our country–YOU– in jeaopardy.
4. Costs the US taxpayer thoousands of dollars a day, when not enough money for veterans….
And the beat goes on….
Just because it is one persons word against another does not mean no crime was committed.
It is unacceptable to grope anybody without consent any time. I was forcibly pushed to the floor and was groped and kissed by a man I barely knew at work. Objecting to that and reporting it is not being precious. As it turns out he had also tried to abduct a child from a bus stop and had been sexually and violently assaulting his wife who had a severe brain injury and could not communicate.
Hi Naomi
I realize this feeds the beast, but I haven’t seen any reporting on whether any media outlets or other groups have paid any of these women to share their stories.
We all know it’s possible… payments by wingnut groups to Bill Clinton’s girlfriends have been well documented, but nobody is asking the question here.
Ruling out payments would add to their credibility.
Have journalists asked the question and I just missed it?
Anybody with an once of knowledge about US politics knows the Access Hollywood tape wasn’t just “discovered” when it was released, and like HippoDave points out below, the timing for the accusers to come forward sure was convenient.
I too have no doubts that Trump is a pig, but the idea that it was a coincidence how this story unraveled is far fetched.
For the record, I believe it is a positive for the country that Trump is tanking, but I also believe it is positive for the country that Hillary’s lead is sufficient that people can vote their conscience for third party candidates and ignore the lesser of two evils bullshit argument.
They will not fact-check anything for their side! Trump 2016! Viva Trump!
Payment can come later, like accepted for a well payin- federal job, ambassador positions are plums here!
Trump tanking?MSNBC;Trump ahead in Florida.sheesh.
They won’t know what hit em,the zionists,on election day.
I’m assuming the accusers are telling the truth since Trump is such a scum-bag, but the timing sure is convenient.
“We cannot be silent anymore. I didn’t tell my story for politics, I told it for women.”
So, after 11 years of “can be silent” the silence stops a few weeks before a Presidential election? She can be telling the honest truth, but it wouldn’t shock if there were some behind-the-scenes (for politics) machinations at work that got this ball rolling.
Three tiny edits and the paragraph describes what Hillary did when Bill was running.
Journalists can’t tell you what to think but they can tell you what to think about…
I never tire thinking of what a POS Trump is, a bully to anyone who disagree’s or criticizes – in this case – woman he’s groped (such a pig).
The “PT Barnum of the 21st Century” is full of empty promises. with no experience in Government, he’s going to fix everything (yeah, sure). Like Augustus of Rome, to an ignorant citizenry he promises change (Rome fell).
A vote for the smearer is a vote for facism.
VOTE NO on Putin/Trump/Pence ’16
“The crisis of democracy is a product of the decay of American capitalism, overseen by a ruling class that is determined to advance a policy of war abroad and austerity at home—a policy that requires ever greater attacks on democratic forms of rule. Whatever happens on November 8, it will resolve nothing, and only set the stage for a protracted political crisis that can be resolved only through the independent intervention of the working class on the basis of a revolutionary socialist program”. wsws.org
The 2016 elections: American democracy in shambles
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2016/10/21/pers-o21.html
You should have seen 1972.
What????Nixon belongs on Mt.Rushmore compared to 0,the Hell bitch and Bent Dick.
He won his election in a landslide,and the MSM was in his corner.
He must have pissed off the ziomonsters,hence their complete turnaround in destroying him.
Nixon,although certainly imperfect,had America interests at heart,like Donald Trump,not Israel,like all the traitors.