As Naji Jerf stepped out of an office building in the southern Turkish city of Gaziantep last December, a man walked up to him and fired two shots from a silenced pistol, striking Jerf in the head and chest and killing him instantly.
Jerf, 38, was a Syrian filmmaker and journalist who had become a popular activist during the revolution. A fierce critic of both the Assad regime and the Islamic State, he had received numerous death threats in the months before he was killed. Shortly after his murder, the Islamic State issued a statement claiming responsibility and Turkish authorities arrested three men in connection with the shooting.
Jerf is only one of the innumerable Syrian revolutionary activists who have lost their lives over the past five years. An editor and documentarian, he helped train a generation of young Syrians to continue the fight for democracy in their country. But his story, and the stories of those like him who continue the spirit of the 2011 uprising, rarely register in broader narratives of the conflict. For all they have sacrificed, their struggles have gone largely ignored, in a framing of the conflict that has been convenient for the Assad government.
Leila Shami, co-author of the book “Burning Country: Syrians in Revolution and War,” told me, “The Syrian government has taken huge efforts to frame the conflict as one solely between themselves and extremist groups. People are not aware that there is a third option in Syria, that there are many Syrians from a wide range of backgrounds who are still fighting for the original goals of the revolution.”
Shami added, “Syria has had so many heroes, but people often don’t know who they are.”
Syrian students stand outside a damaged building at the University of Aleppo on Jan. 29, 2013, after the institution re-opened following an explosion earlier in the month.
Photo: AFP/Getty Images
Khalifa al-Khadr was one of those whose lives Naji Jerf had touched. A student at Aleppo University when the war began, he now belongs to a new generation of writers and journalists committed to carrying on the goals of the revolution. Last week in Gaziantep, on the Turkish-Syrian border, Khadr sat drinking tea at a bustling outdoor restaurant, occasionally rising to greet other young Syrians who now also call this Turkish city home.
“When all this started, we were mostly too young to have any kind of ideology,” Khadr told me. “The reason we rose up was to just kill fear. To kill this fear that we had all been living under as a society.”
Khadr looked younger than his 23 years. He wore glasses, an orange jacket, and a beige scarf wrapped around his neck. The revolution had begun when he was only 17. It came to consume every aspect of his life and worldview. Despite his youthful appearance, he spoke with the serious intensity of someone who had come of age during war. On his cellphone, the background photo was a picture of a young Syrian girl killed in a government bombardment of the city of Idlib.
Khalifa al-Khadr in a photo taken on May 30, 2015.
Photo: Khalifa al-Khadr/Facebook
When the government met those protests with brutal violence, Khadr saw sentiments harden among his fellow students. Now they realized that the government would choose force over incremental reform, and they began calling for bringing down the regime. Some spoke of taking up arms in self-defense.
As it turned out, they wouldn’t have to. In the summer of 2012, rebel fighters from surrounding villages swept into Aleppo and captured several key districts from government control. The people of Aleppo were divided in their response to the rebels’ arrival. Some wealthy residents were uneasy with the influx of poor, rural fighters. Even among those who had supported the uprising, there were divisions and concerns. Khadr didn’t share them. “I was excited,” he told me. “I felt like we were about to be part of something that was going to free the country.”
But as the war ground into a stalemate, many people fled Aleppo, and then Syria itself. Khadr was among the activists who stayed. He was continuing the revolution by other means: building an archive of photos and videos to document developments in opposition-held areas, and writing about his own experiences and observations of the uprising. In one passage of a longer reminiscence, he wrote about a childhood friend who took part in the revolution only to later turn away from it by joining the militant group the Islamic State:
A choke comes between memory and the bitter reality. The choke kills me and forbids me from mourning him. If I were an armed fighter, I would have killed him the minute I saw him on the battlefield, to save his soul. To prevent him from infecting others, to prevent his soul from sinking into others’ blood.
I won’t mourn your deeds, even if the one you killed was my own father. As you have loyalties of your own, I have loyalty to our revolution, more sacred than yours.
Photo: Achilleas Zavallis/AFP/Getty Images
The culture of the revolution had imprinted itself indelibly on Khadr’s personality, as it had on those of many other young Syrians. Creating a “Free Syria” — free from oppression and upholding basic rights like freedom of expression and equal treatment under the law — had become the guiding purpose of his life. Like many others, Khadr felt compelled both to write and to seek out like-minded young Syrians.
It was through social media that he first met Naji Jerf three years ago. Khadr was engaged in a debate with other young Syrian activists on Facebook when Jerf, known to many of them as the editor of the Syrian revolutionary news outlet Hentah, “liked” his status, part of a Facebook conversation that had begun around the quote “Man does not live on bread alone.” The two began messaging and Jerf invited Khadr to take part in a media workshop he had arranged for young activists in southern Turkey, where Jerf was then based.
Jerf became a mentor and adviser to Khadr, encouraging him to develop his writing and publishing his articles periodically on Hentah. While Khadr lived between relatives’ and friends’ homes in different areas of opposition-held Syria, he would occasionally cross the border to Gaziantep to meet with Jerf and other activists. In the relative calm of Turkey, they would spend days talking and reflecting on the future of their country — discussions that helped shape the nascent worldviews of Khadr and the other young activists.
“Syrians have tried secularism, nationalism, Islamism, and they have all failed in various ways,” Khadr told me. “The reality is that it doesn’t matter what the orientation of the government is per se. What matters is that the ruling system respects the rights of citizens and protects them from injustice.”
Under the Assad regime, Syria had become a police state whose prisons were notorious for torture, murder, and indefinite detention. Many activists, including Ghiath Matar, known as “Syria’s Gandhi,” and the Syrian anarchist philosopher Omar Aziz, had lost their lives in Syria’s torturous detention facilities.
“Even before the revolution, we all grew up hearing stories of people who disappeared, we knew the fear this created,” Khadr reflected. He told me that now he dreams of a country with “no prisons” — a country where the all-encompassing fear that characterized Baathist rule is finally removed.
The grave of Naji Jerf, a Syrian filmmaker and journalist killed in Gaziantep, Turkey, last December.
Photo: Khalifa al-Khadr/Facebook
The outside narrative of the Syrian conflict, which focuses exclusively on the actions of armed groups and states, has minimized or excluded a significant dimension. The revolution fostered a Syrian civil society that continues to fight for the future of the country. Across cities and small towns in Syria, in areas that have slipped from the central government’s grip and are free of Islamic State control, local councils operate that provide a semblance of democratic rule in a country that, in its modern history, has known only totalitarianism. A huge array of new independent newspapers, radio stations, and video production companies has arisen, giving voice to a people who had long been either silenced or forced to consume Soviet-style Baathist propaganda.
Khadr’s life, like the lives of many other Syrians of his generation, has been irreversibly transformed by the events of the revolution. Though he is still young, he exudes a brash confidence and poise. “All my old friends from before, when I was just a student, we lost touch and don’t talk anymore,” he said, fingering a string of beads wrapped around his fingers. “Everyone who is a friend to me today, they are people I shared experiences with during the revolution.”
Khadr was back in Syria last December when he received the message informing him that Naji Jerf had been murdered. In a Facebook post that day, Syrian journalist Rami Jarrah lamented that people like Jerf — Syrian civil revolutionaries who had given their lives for the freedom of the country — had been effectively airbrushed out of history.
“Syrians who have dedicated so much for principle and stood against tyranny and extremism [receive] no real recognition,” Jarrah wrote. “This mess of misinformation says that there are two sides fighting (Assad and ISIS) with little mention of those that oppose both wrongs. Those like Naji.”
In Muslim societies, funerals are typically held within a few days of death. Despite Khadr’s wishes, he could not cross the border back to Turkey in time to attend his friend’s farewell.
“Death has a different meaning in different cultures. At the beginning you mourn, but then, when so many begin to die, you have to find a way to stop mourning them and just keep going,” he told me, emotion slowly creeping into his voice.
“When I think of Naji now, I remember the things he taught me and I say: Your memory is my path.”
Top photo: Demonstrators chant slogans and hold Syrian flags during a protest against the Assad regime in the opposition-controlled Kafr Hamrah village of Aleppo, Syria, on March 25, 2016.
All: A cretin to whom I seldom substantively respond, below spewed this:
One can expect Max Blumenthal’s name will continue to arise in all threads touching on the horror in Syria, for multiple relevant reasons. Chief among them being this recent, two-part series (second link in second post) about Western conniving and public relations efforts regarding Syria. This conniving specifically includes the White Helmets, and their being created and trained by a British mercenary, and trained to tow video equipment around to record their every rescue for sophisticated PR use, as they advocate for Western intervention.
Max Blumenthal, Part I: Inside the Shadowy PR Firm That’s Lobbying for Regime Change in Syria
Max Blumenthal, Part II: How the White Helmets Became International Heroes While Pushing U.S. Military Intervention and Regime Change in Syria
Syrian or Russian planes target(?) school (Middle East Eye, 10-26-2016):
“…….At least seven children were among 22 civilians killed in air strikes Wednesday that hit a school and the surrounding area in Syria’s northwestern Idlib province, a monitor said…..The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said “warplanes – either Russia or Syrian – carried out six strikes” in the village of Hass, including on a school complex…….”One rocket hit the entrance of the school as students were leaving to go home, after the school administration decided to end classes for the day because of the raids,” the activist said, speaking on condition of anonymity……”
Mona writes:
“…….As I’d been led to expect, The Intercept is now publishing common-sense articles on Syria, including today’s Intelligence Director ‘Wouldn’t Put It Past’ Russia to Fire at U.S. Aircraft in Syria, as well as a piece titled: PENTAGON IGNORED EVIDENCE OF CIVILIAN CASUALTIES IN ISIS STRIKES, HUMAN RIGHTS GROUP SAYS……”
Seems like the Intercept is offering various points of view. Some might even call this more “objective” reporting. The articles by Murtaza Hussain have incensed the radical leftists and Russian-bots that pervade this site. In an article about the White Helmets saving tens of thousands of lives which was never disputed, the name Blumenthal came up 119 times on the thread. Of course, no one expects a Russian-bot to promote anything but the RT line, but this singular lack of empathy for civilian deaths demonstrated the political nature of the radical left.
Greenwald could be the worst offender (10-3-2015, “One Day After Warning Russia of Civilian Casualties, the U.S. Bombs a Hospital in Afghanistan”):
“……..Now, however, the Twitter accounts of various MSF branches are filled with horrific photographs of their staff traumatized and their hospital burning as a result of U.S. bombs…….MSF’s full, frequently updated, hard-to-read account of all of this is here……”
It’s a little ironic that Greenwald linked to MSF’s account of the bombing calling it “hard to read”. Yet, until the article by Murtaza Hussain (“SYRIA’S WHITE HELMETS RISK EVERYTHING TO SAVE THE VICTIMS OF AIRSTRIKES”) the Intercept in general and Greenwald in particular didn’t publish an article about the humanitarian disaster in Syria. If the account by MSF of the US bombing a hospital in Afghanistan was “hard to read”, it was impossible to read in the Intercept about the deliberate targeting of hospitals, clinics and even an aid convoy under constant bombardment from the Syrian regime and Russian war planes (over the last year). According to Amnesty International (March 3, 2016):
“……. Russian and Syrian government forces appear to have deliberately and systematically targeted hospitals and other medical facilities over the last three months to pave the way for ground forces to advance on northern Aleppo, an examination of airstrikes by Amnesty International has found……Even as Syria’s fragile ceasefire deal was being hammered out, Syrian government forces and their allies intensified their attacks on medical facilities……“Syrian and Russian forces have been deliberately attacking health facilities in flagrant violation of international humanitarian law. But what is truly egregious is that wiping out hospitals appears to have become part of their military strategy,” said Tirana Hassan, Crisis Response Director at Amnesty International……….”
So it is perfectly understandable why the far left focused on an article by Blumenthal which accused the White Helmets of political bias (US-funded) and supporting regime change in Syria. They are simply not interested in “hard to read” unless it’s the result of US policies. The hypocrisy of the radical left is impossible to deny (the response by Russian-bots is expected).
The neocon troll is spewing lies and denying facts as usual… but I think I’m not alone in laughing about how he is now disrespecting Trump by supporting Hillary’s extremist position on Syria.
Such a pathetically blind ideology.
I don’t support Hillary under any circumstance – and there are no lies in my post that I am aware of.
Thanks.
READERS: About 95% of the time I do not substantively reply to Craig Summers, who is an authoritarian, pro-torture, Republican Trump-voter (depending on when you ask him). Multiple commenters asked that I not reply to Craig because doing so causes him to post yet more walls of drivel-text, which pollutes the board.
This is a course I shall continue in this thread, and one I highly recommend to others.
The post lightly [edited] for clarity:
“[A toilet-bowl ring] is a lot better [than anything I] post.
[T]hey said your post were good. They weren’t – I told you so on numerous occasions[, and if I had any credibility, that would mean something]. They weren’t readable [for those of us struggling at the 4th grade level]– and re-posting my entire post ma[kes my idiocy stand-out] far [at least double] worse. This [correcting only a half-dozen or so of my falsehoods, contradictions, and non-sequiturs at a time] is much better [than skooling me all at once.] You are to be commended for [working with my crap-flood] format that
wais an eyesore and un[intelligible].You are going to still have to work on [getting] the content th[r]ough [my thick skull]. Not much there.
Thanks.”
As I’d been led to expect, The Intercept is now publishing common-sense articles on Syria, including today’s Intelligence Director ‘Wouldn’t Put It Past’ Russia to Fire at U.S. Aircraft in Syria, as well as a piece titled: PENTAGON IGNORED EVIDENCE OF CIVILIAN CASUALTIES IN ISIS STRIKES, HUMAN RIGHTS GROUP SAYS.
It’s good the appearance that Maz Hussain’s position on Syria was the dominant or approved point of view here should no longer be supportable. Twitter morons have been accusing Glenn Greenwald of sharing Maz’s beliefs (and others of opposing them, because this is , after all, the Internet; idiocy often reigns supreme).
Mona
“……..The Intercept posts a timely piece, in light of our discussion here about the results of U.S. foreign interventions usually having overall atrocious results: PENTAGON IGNORED EVIDENCE OF CIVILIAN CASUALTIES IN ISIS STRIKES, HUMAN RIGHTS GROUP SAYS….”
It is a war Mona and the US is doing the bidding of Assad by bombing the Islamic State. Amnesty International does point out:
“…….While the Syrian military and its Russian allies have been responsible for the vast majority of civilian casualties resulting from airstrikes within Syria’s borders, the 27-page memorandum Amnesty sent to the Pentagon last month painted a detailed picture of nearly a dozen incidents in which coalition operations frequently described by U.S. officials as the most careful and precise in the world appear to have gone deeply awry…..”
The Russian military and the Syrian regime are responsible for the vast majority of civilian casualties. This is becoming a common theme. The US also kills civilians in Afghanistan, but the vast majority (70%) are killed by the Taliban while the US accounts for only 2% according to the UN. The US military needs to carefully analyze targets before striking ISIS, but Russia and Assad are not quite as precise – obviously.
READERS: About 95% of the time I do not substantively reply to Craig Summers, who is an authoritarian, pro-torture, Republican Trump-voter (depending on when you ask him). Multiple commenters asked that I not reply to Craig because doing so causes him to post yet more walls of drivel-text, which pollutes the board.
This is a course I shall continue in this thread, and one I highly recommend to others.
God, don’t you hate the truth, Mona?
craigsummers v craigsummers
No matter how low he puts the bar, he still manages to plow beneath it:
“He said,
‘This is a memo that describes how we’re going to take out seven countries in five years, starting with Iraq, and then Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and, finishing off, Iran.’
I said, ‘Is it classified?’
He said. ‘Yes, sir.’ ”
– General (retired) Wesley Clark, Former Supreme Allied Commander of NATO, discussing prior plans for “regime change” in Syria, March 2, 2007, DemocracyNow.
Jack ? craigsummers
October 24 2016, 1:20 p.m.
you are so stupid you have just pointed 14 strait facts!
Jamie ? craigsummers
October 24 2016, 9:56 a.m.
Craig is the one duped by media — he is not even aware of simple legislative realities
Maisie ? -Mona-
October 23 2016, 5:27 p.m.
He [craigsummers] seems entirely incapable of critical thinking.
Doug Salzmann ? Maisie
October 23 2016, 8:06 p.m.
Never argue with Craig, except on days when you think beating your head against a wall might be entertaining.
photosymbiosis ? craigsummers
October 23 2016, 10:59 a.m.
What a load of State Department propaganda BS
Guest ? craigsummers
October 25 2016, 6:30 a.m.
Crapflood. Thanks for admitting to the quality of your posts.
Maisie ? craigsummers
October 23 2016, 9:21 p.m.
That’ll do, pig.
DocHollywood
That is a lot better post Doc. Mona (and some others) led you astray when they said your post were good. They weren’t – and I told you so on numerous occasions. They weren’t readable – and re-posting my entire post made it far worse. This is much better. You are to be commended for giving up a format that was an eyesore and unreadable.
You are going to still have to work on the content though. Not much there.
Thanks.
The Intercept posts a timely piece, in light of our discussion here about the results of U.S. foreign interventions usually having overall atrocious results: PENTAGON IGNORED EVIDENCE OF CIVILIAN CASUALTIES IN ISIS STRIKES, HUMAN RIGHTS GROUP SAYS
Well, he’s a demonstrated liar about his NSA claims, but there doesn’t seem to be a similar, self-serving reason James Clapper would lie about his professional opinion here: Clinton’s Syria plan could spark conflict with Russia
Mona-
If you have a minute, I was hoping for a response below.
Thanks
Sorry I missed it. You asked:
Are you alluding to Iraq and/or Libya?
As you observed, I’ve set forth 3 factors militating against U.S. intervention in Syria, one of which is the high risk of hot war between us and Russia. But there were and are two others vis-a-vis the secular, liberal insurgents in Syria:
The history of U.S. interventions is overwhelmingly one of failure, death and destruction — for us and/or for the people we purport to he “helping.” Therefore, the burden is heavily with those supporting intervention to make an exceptionally strong argument for why our military intervention would have a different result in any particular case.
I don’t know if that answers what you want to know. Please get more country-specific if it doesn’t.
Thanks for the response.
No, I was (or was trying to be)) specifically focused on Syria.
The distinction between direct US military intervention and the US backed regime change war by proxy in Syria is my interest.
You’ve clearly opposed direct military intervention in Syria.
Do you support what we’ve been doing in Syria despite the results that meet two of your criteria?
@Mona
“You have no business lecturing anyone else about failure to “see things clearly.””
I see, says a blind man as he walks into a wall.
You are an antisemite pissed at me for calling you out as one. You also, therefore, have no business addressing the morality of anything.
Additionally, you have repeatedly defamed me, claiming I said an odious thing, then insisting you would locate it, but never doing so. Because I did not and would not say it.
You are in the category of dahoit and Craig Summers, to wit: if you approved of me I’d be deeply worried.
“…….You are an antisemite pissed at me for calling you out as one. You also, therefore, have no business addressing the morality of anything……”
You are such a fucking hypocrite Mona. You have no business calling someone an antisemite. None!
READERS: About 95% of the time I do not substantively reply to Craig Summers, who is an authoritarian, pro-torture, Republican Trump-voter (depending on when you ask him). Multiple commenters asked that I not reply to Craig because doing so causes him to post yet more walls of drivel-text, which pollutes the board.
This is a course I shall continue in this thread, and one I highly recommend to others.
lightly edited for brevity
You are the only commenter to claim I’m pissed at you.
Ondeloomex did that often, too.
Anyone can get court papers and pretend to be that lawyer on a popular website.
“wretched liar”
So what part of my post made you call on your friend to delete it?
Was it mentioning your claim that ANYONE can get court papers and learn who Glenn’s law partner was?
Was it pointing out you dishonor Glenn by always attacking the messenger?
Lawyers are supposed to protect free speech, not suppress it.
A Clinton campaign fellow, Robert Caruso, unwittingly makes the best argument against intervention:
Jingoistic dick-waving and admiration for war criminals are not a foreign policy recommendation for moral and intelligent people.
Unbelievable (not really) that we still have shills trumpeting Kissinger’s foreign policy practices as emulatable, when the reality is much different.
Westerners — especially the U.S. — have done such great things for the Middle East and Muslim-majority countries: Mosul offensive: ISIS militants fleeing to Syria, says tribal leader
ISIS didn’t exist, hadn’t yet been born in Iraq, when we invaded. Now it’s slaughtering thousands there, and increasing its presence in Syria.
So, yes, interventionists have to explain, in depth and detail, how yet more Western intervention is going to work out and improve the lot of Syrians.
” yes, interventionists have to explain, in depth and detail, how yet more Western intervention is going to work out and improve the lot of Syrians.”
Any idiots can answer that point. No wonder it is coming from a lapdog like you. One has to go to your low level of intellect for you to understand the point at hand. So, answer the following question to yourself:
Thousands of Gaza civilians have been killed by Israel Airforce. Would the life of Gazan civilians be improved if the international community imposes a no fly zone above Gaza?
It is hilarious when stupid people like you keep referring to the Iraq war to explain ISIS without mentioning Assad violent oppression of peaceful demonstrators that directly caused Islamic extrememists to flourish.
This is to answer your point big dummy:
1) Western powers have already intervened in Iraq and Syria. Maybe you can tell us whether the use of force by Western powers in Iraq against ISIS has improved or worsened the lifes of Kurds, Yazidis, the people of Ramadi, Diyala, Fallujah.
2) If you were not an idiot lapdog you would attempt to find out whether the use of force against ISIS in Kobani has improved or worsened the lifes of Syrians in that area.
3) Ask the Kurds whether the no fly zone against Saddam forces has improved or worsened their lifes.
Mani is a troll and I very seldom reply to it. I shall continue that course here.
Excellent article thank you.
And now thanks to the good work of Judicial Watch we know that those countries that supported the opposition forces not only anticipated Isis but thought that they would be an asset in the overthrow of Assad.
pair says something stoopid:
That’s nice, but just because you do not hurl that nasty accusation it does not follow that others do not. Even others in this thread in which you are participating do it. (Or “terrorist sympathizer.”)
Maisie said it of Maz Hussain, and also stated it applied equally to anyone who supports the Syrian rebels. Moreover, “Joe” correctly noted many on Twitter have accused Maz of that.
And WTF is the matter with you, thinking “anyone opposed to Assad” is a “useful idiot?” Any moral person is opposed to Assad. Why, one might even say you are a moral idiot. If , you know, we are just going to continue with accusing good people of holding bad faith and obscene positions.
Neoliberal bastion, Vox: 3 big problems with plans to escalate in Syria, my emphasis:
And that’s what nearly all interventionists steadfastly refuse to do. Hurling “Assadist!” or “racist, you are more anti-American than you care about dead Syrians!” is not a morally or intellectually respectable substitute — such rhetoric is, in fact, disgusting.
DocHollywood
“…….You’re spot-on, Jeff: The US had been planning to attack Syria long for over a decade before the Arab Spring…..”
Only a real dumbass continues to press the same propaganda article after article in the face of contrary evidence – like the reopening of the US embassy in Syria in 2010 by the Obama Administration which was meant to build relations with Syria; the negotiated nuclear agreement with Iran – a neocon nightmare; the flat refusal by the Bush Administration to green-light an attack on the Iranian nuclear program in late 2007 by Israel (another major neocon disagreement); the Obama administration refusing to enforce its own red line in Syria and so on. Even Obama’s Secretary of State, John Kerry, has been frustrated at the lack of a military threat in Syria – and 50 diplomats signed a memo supporting increased use of the military against the Syrian regime. The Obama administration has never had a coherent strategy in Syria – and has completely ruled out the use of the US military in Syria (outside of bombing the extremists. Neocon Robert Kagan (interview, quoted from New York Times article, June 2014):
“……. To Mr. Kagan, American action to stop the militants is imperative, but a continued military presence in Iraq and action in Syria would have averted the crisis. “It’s striking how two policies driven by the same desire to avoid the use of a military power are now converging to create this burgeoning disaster,” Mr. Kagan said in an interview……..”
This is one more attempt by you to blame the neocons (PNAC) for the US arming Syrian rebels including jihadists after the brutal crack-down by the Assad regime on the peaceful protests. President Obama is the anti-neocon. He supported regime change by arming the rebels against the brutal regime. Outside of Iran, Russia and Hezbollah, who actually supports Assad’s police state anyway? Obama did almost nothing to bring about regime change leaving most of the task to allies. Indeed, currently, the US is bombing ISIS and al-Nusra (under another name) helping the Assad regime remain in power.
Your stupidity is becoming legendary, Doc.
The first few comments (at the bottom) nailed it: while Assad was just another brutal dictator and people did have a legitimate reason to revolt after Assad basically told them to fuck off when they asked the government for drought relief (caused by global warming/climate change, BTW), NATO and the U.S. had a lot to do with this situation.
Sentimentality is no way to analyze or evaluate a geopolitical situation, and that’s certainly true here. Syria has turned into a proxy war between several forces, the biggest being the U.S., NATO, and Russia. A pox on all their houses as far as I’m concerned.
And BTW, Hussain’s complete failure to mention U.S. and NATO instigation in the Syrian revolt and his kid gloves treatment of the evil country of Turkey is rather telling. This reads more like CIA propaganda than anything, and it’s rather disappointing to see some commenters who are usually very perceptive falling for this type of BS.
“…….And BTW, Hussain’s complete failure to mention U.S. and NATO instigation in the Syrian revolt and his kid gloves treatment of the evil country of Turkey is rather telling…..”
Yes, about you though Jeff. The US did arm the (unvetted) opposition to Assad including Jihadists, but the “revolt” i.e., the Arab Spring had nothing to do with jihadists. Simply put, Assad launched his own war by crushing the democracy movement using his military. That wasn’t the “war on terror”. He was the terror. This was the exact same strategy his “pop” used to murder 10,000-20,000 people in the Hama massacre in 1982.
There is all kinds of things that the author could have put into this article. He simply chose to enlighten us with a “splice of Syrian life” – today. Not all of the “rebels” in Aleppo today are ISIS or al-Qaeda. Some are still fighting the Assad regime which brutally cracked down on the protesters as Amnesty International indicated in 2012. Many more became refugees.
By the way, in 2014, the US began bombing ISIS and al-Qaeda working on behalf of the Assad regime.
The U.S. didn’t bomb ISIS and al-Qaida on behalf of Assad. It started bombing them because they had gotten out of control of their American benefactors.
You’re spot-on, Jeff:
The US had been planning to attack Syria long for over a decade before the Arab Spring:
The US has been pursuing those plans as it “bolsters” terrorists groups:
“A willful decision” by the US to support radical jihadists (that would emerge as ISIL and Al Nusra) against the Syrian government was made before the anti-government protests:
we all know the “arab spring” was co-opted. we all know actual syrians protested assad. we all know assad is a dynastic dilettante who lets the military do the heavy lifting while (formerly) making clumsy attempts at appeasing the west. none of this is news.
but it’s not 2012 anymore. many members of the supposed “moderate opposition” live outside of syria – many in britain. the few that remain have been marginalized by takfiri psychopaths. how many “secular moderates” are in east aleppo? not counting those being held as human shields. ask the folks sheltering in west aleppo if they want to go back. or who is more of a danger to them: assad or the “rebels”.
you don’t have to like assad, you just have to look at libya or somalia or sudan and have the common sense to imagine that environment sandwiched between turkey and iraq. you also don’t have to like the russians to understand that the road to damascus leads to tehran and then moscow.
it’s over. it’s assad or saudi/qatari/cia mercs. there is no “third way”. adjust.
A pity there were so few and the fact they were protesting at the same time as the Saudi/Gulf/US regime change project was just underway killing Syrian soldiers and police. These poor kids must be mortified that bWashington thinks the foreign jihadis of Al Quaeda are legitimate moderates.
While there are no doubt a good number of Syrians with grievances against the Assad regime, there are as many others, proportionately who are not Syrian who grieve that regime, and an untold host of similar others with similar grievances about any regime.
One truly sad part, in the Syrian instant, is that these poor people have been well and truly ‘played’, to set a ‘principled’ foundation under what could be described as a steaming pile of homemade sh*t, by people in other lands who could give a fig for their grievances, them or their country. And the other sad thing is that at least half their Syrian confreres disagree with them. otherwise this story would have been moot more than 4 long years ago.
There are, it would appear, still a larger number of Syrians supporting their government, against all comers – than either the Islamic terror or the ‘humanitarians’ who payed them to destroy it.
Excellent piece in The Nation, earnestly trying to distill the two narratives without naming anyone specific, and refraining from the outrageous characterizations and insults so ubiquitous when Syria emerges into online discussions. Maz Hussain and other interventionists need to read this, but many leftists in these comments should internalize this part:
Fundamental principles matter, and so does a clear-eyes assessment of critical facts. But in this case, it is also critical to stop bad faith demonization and straw-man depictions of those who take one side or the other.
That last bit includes not damning as “terrorist lovers” known leftists who are good people for refusing to address the severe risks of Western intervention against Assad and Russia. Do not let them get away with that failure, but don’t be obscene in your accusations.
And they, too, absolutely must stop this “Assadist” bullshit accusation, along with “you are racist and only care about being anti-America.” It’s all disgusting, and I do not and will not tolerate any of it.
Syria does not fit into any neat, Manichean dichotomy of, e.g., imperialist v. The People, left v. right, liberty v. tyranny. Those unable to intellectually and morally process issues that don’t conform to their ideological mainstays and framework are going to be worthless assholes on Syria; intelligent people of good will won’t be.
Why does Syria have to fall into anybody else’s philosopical construct? That is the business of Syrians, not the rest of the world. No matter how much duty we may assume, or be granted, to protect anybody.
I am a universalist with universalist values, not a tribalist, with tribalist allegiances. If those opposing murderous tyranny in Syria could be assisted without making the carnage and chaos worse, if they could be assisted without out risking a hot war with Russia, if they could be assisted without murderous theocrats probably replacing Assad, if all of that, I would endorse assisting them.
But none of that is the case. So I don’t.
Perfect example of a lack of critical thinking skills :
“If those opposing murderous tyranny in Syria could be assisted without making the carnage and chaos worse, if they could be assisted without out risking a hot war with Russia…”
Translation: “I am a coward. I will let Russia and the Syrian government bomb and kill civilians, commit war crimes, use chemical weapons. I will not even support a no fly zone to protect civilians because I am too scared that Russia might start a war with the most advanced and experienced military alliance in human history.”
This is Syria :
1) 400,000 deaths
2) 4,000,000 refugees
3) 7,600,000 internally displaced
4) Consistent use of chemical weapons
5) July 16, maternity hospital bombed. Sep 16, 2 Aleppo hospital bombed out of service. Sep 23, humanitarian convoy bombed and destroyed.
50% of a country inhabitants are either displaced or refugees outside their nations. War crimes have become a routine. The number of deaths already surpassed the number of civilian deaths in WWII for Canada, Czechoslovakia Finland, France, Italy, Netherlands, Norway, United Kingdom, United States. Yes, ladies and gentlemen some countries that were under Nazis occupation had fewer civilians deaths than Syria!!
You sound familiar with the French and British cowards in the 30’s :
1) Nazis sent troops to Rhineland: France and Britain No actions
2) Nazis sent troops to Austria
France and Britain No actions
3) Nazis sent troops to Czechoslovakia
France and Britain No actions
TI: A comedy show indeed!
Mani is a troll, and I nearly always ignore it. And shall do so here.
“…….Syria does not fit into any neat, Manichean dichotomy of, e.g., imperialist v. The People, left v. right, liberty v. tyranny. Those unable to intellectually and morally process issues that don’t conform to their ideological mainstays and framework are going to be worthless assholes on Syria; intelligent people of good will won’t be……”
Jesus Mona. Seems like you are promoting the “objective” journalism of the left leaning “The Nation”. Suddenly “advocacy” is out and “objectivity” is in. Let’s just step back and look at both sides of the issue. Is this Mona, or Bill Kelly? I do believe there is some value to what the author of the article in the Nation is saying, but there also is no doubt that Assad is the biggest terrorist in the Middle East today. No one else comes close.
Additionally, what Murtaza stated in this article is simply true. There is nothing really controversial at all about it. When the Arab Spring spread to Syria, most of the protesters were highly idealistic and courageous at the same time. Murtaza obviously understands that – and writes about it. I have earned a great deal more respect for Murtaza since he published these last two articles. He stepped away from the typical anti-American agenda of Greenwald and the Intercept.
READERS: About 95% of the time I do not substantively reply to Craig Summers, who is an authoritarian, pro-torture, Republican Trump-voter (depending on when you ask him). Multiple commenters asked that I not reply to Craig because doing so causes him to post yet more walls of drivel-text, which pollute the board.
This is a course I shall continue in this thread, and one I highly recommend to others.
greenwald isn’t “anti-american” but the US government is decidely “anti-greenwald”. also, “american” technically refers to anyone in north or south america, the latter of which is glenn’s current home. i doubt he’d learn the language of a country if he hated it so much. take it from an actual anti-american. i know a fellow one when i see one.
as for the intercept, it’s slowly drifting on liberal bourgeois seas toward “the nation” on its way to “the guardian”. quit pretending it’s some leftist muckraking website.
“………as for the intercept, it’s slowly drifting on liberal bourgeois seas toward “the nation” on its way to “the guardian”. quit pretending it’s some leftist muckraking website……”
Thanks for looking out for us peasants. How could we function without the big, strong Marxist to take care of us? Articles like the one by Murtaza do give me hope that the Intercept will focus on other things rather than the US. I would love to see more articles about Ukraine and Venezuela. Otherwise, not much beef in your response
Thanks though.
“That last bit includes not damning as “terrorist lovers” known leftists who are good people for refusing to address the severe risks of Western intervention against Assad and Russia.”
speaking of straw men. i personally don’t think of anyone opposed to assad as “terrorist lover” – just “useful idiots”. at best they have a poor sense of priorities. at worst they’re jingoistic imperialists who seek to see the world in their own image so they can stop having to think about it and focus on whatever western bullshit they’d rather be doing. this fetishization of “secular democracy” (two wrongs that seldom make a right) in light of what could be further destruction of the “middle east” is a perfect example of people not knowing how to pick their battles.
every crime – real or alleged – of the assad regime is matched or surpassed by the crimes of the very western countries fuming with pompous indignation whenever an otherwise pliable leader puts his country’s needs above theirs. you want to fight against torture and indefinite detention? stay at home and get out of syria’s business. but the concern trolls don’t actually care about injustices…just the ones that are convenient to care about.
“Syria does not fit into any neat, Manichean dichotomy”
nothing does. or ever has. dichotomy and duality in the world of ideas is a modern invention and an unconvincing one at that.
“Those unable to intellectually and morally process issues that don’t conform to their ideological mainstays and framework are going to be worthless assholes on Syria”
or maybe they’re right and feel no need to compromise with the aforementioned useful idiots. “objectivity” is yet another invented myth. if you stand in the middle of the road you get run over.
I never expected to read so much rubbish on the Intercept. A guy who didn’t see it was all started by the US and its allies from Al Qaeda, Israel and Saudi Arabia is a very big fool indeed. Even at the end of 2012 he does not see it. Acase of extreme blindness. And then the quote ‘for the freedom of his country’. What utter nonsens. What does this slogan mean? Nothing, it’s empty gesturing.
Obviously written by someone who doesn’t fear posting his strong views on the Internet. You lack the human quality of empathy for those who are not so lucky.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXS3vW47mOE
please some feedback?
This isn’t specific to you; I’ve said it many times here. Except for very short clips, I don’t watch videos in the course of discussion here. I will scan a transcript — altho if it’s the Wesley Clark monologue about the list of Middle Eastern nations the neocons planned to invade, I have read it several times.
“I never expected to read so much rubbish on the Intercept. ”
Agreed. Syria is on the list after Afghanistan and Iraq but before Yemen.
More propaganda from TI.
The “uprising”; as if it was the general population springing forth to demand change. Assad has been on the list for regime change and he’s been tougher to displace than Saddam.
loooooooooooooooooooool
we have posted in the same instant…
you with the fact… me with the proof!!!!!!
Refreshingly nuanced reporting on what actually happens in these areas. So sad that the young have to mature so quickly
there are people that are fooled by the lying press…
but you are fooled and you love it!
thanks for that tidbit. I suppose I should, instead, thoughtlessly rely on your uncritiqued judgment
just rely on your ignorance…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXS3vW47mOE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hc_qNwNuLBo&t=3m8s
do you see now how big it is?
P.S. “Refreshingly nuanced reporting” it has ZERO of refreshing because it just the million times BS repeated by the corrupt MSM!
“thoughtlessly rely on ”
Thoughtlessness is what propaganda relies on. “Nuanced reporting” …? no. It’s straight up PR.
“The extreme bias shown in foreign media coverage of similar events in Iraq and Syria will be a rewarding subject for PhDs students looking at the uses and abuses of propaganda down the ages.”
– Patrick Cockburn
Congratulations, the Intercept finally made history:
“The extreme bias shown in foreign media coverage [Hussain] of similar events in Iraq and Syria will be a rewarding subject for PhDs students looking at the uses and abuses of propaganda down the ages.”
– Patrick Cockburn
http://www.unz.com/pcockburn/compare-the-coverage-of-mosul-and-east-aleppo-and-it-reveals-a-lot/
“Those claiming to be the protecting Aleppo’s civilians from the Russian and Syrian onslaught [Hussain] are in actuality using them as a means to protect the rebels’ success on the battlefield.”
https://consortiumnews.com/2016/10/08/selective-outrage-over-aleppo-bombing/
Compare the coverage of Mosul and East Aleppo and it tells you a lot about the propaganda we consume
Max Blumenthal has thoroughly shown the extensive and expensive, sophisticated PR campaign the pro-intervention-in-Syria forces have bought in the West. Too much that we read and hear about the tragedy in Syria is the result of that, rather than investigative journalism and insightful analysis.
Mona- in response to your reply below…
“First, seeking to undermine one’s “own country” is often entirely proper. The United States exists in part because of assistance received from the French”
The French didn’t infiltrate the colonies in order to instigate the American Revolution.
The distinction in how the events unfolded makes your comparison rather silly.
The French didn’t fire the first shots on the British in order to turn a peaceful protest movement into a war.
The Syrian protestors didn’t convene an assembly and decide to request foreign intervention, it was foisted on them.
I can’t agree with the rationalization that the oppression and evils of the Baathists justify an outside regime change effort (I know that’s not exactly what you said, but it is what you’re defending).
Such evils and oppression exist in our own country and in every country involved in the regime change war by proxy. The evils unleashed by our regime change war are exponentially greater than the evils that existed in Syria.
You oppose US military intervention, but our intervention by proxy is little different.
It did result in a “wider and horrible war”.
It most assuredly has “made the situation worse”.
We will never know if the peaceful protests (that Assad allowed to continue until they were used as cover for violence) could have achieved advances in civil liberties.
In your response to DS you asserted “If all democratic means is as foreclosed as is the case in Baathist Syria”… well, the democratic means of peaceful protest existed in Syria, so your assertion is false. There isn’t a democratic nation on the planet that would allow protests infiltrated by foreign instigators shooting police to continue. The crackdown isn’t proof that democratic means had been exhausted.
Likewise, outside observers deemed the prior election in Syria free and fair… another example that democratic means weren’t foreclosed in Syria.
I have no doubt that, like in the US and elsewhere, the choices were artificially limited by the establishment apparatus, but the fact remains true. Assad won the election.
I have doubts about polling in a war zone, but outside polling found that a majority of Syrians still prefer Assad… and looking at the alternatives, who can blame them.
It would seem that “If all democratic means is as foreclosed as is the case in Baathist Syria” is in reality a viewpoint that amounts to propaganda intentionally spread to spin good people like you.
Nobody likes to hear that, including both of us specifically, but I would ask you to double check your sources and/or reconsider the evidence in the context where most of the information we receive about Assad and Syria has been biased in much the same manner as our information about Israel.
(sorry for calling your comparison silly… I know there’s a nicer, more diplomatic way of saying it, but it’s just not coming to me)
Um, no. What you quote from me was in direct response to this by Maisie:
That’s an absolute, categorical statement. By definition, I cannot be mistaking any “differences,” since Masie’s statements allows for none.
The rest of your comment and its crticism is similarly flawed.
No Mona.
I quoted your response to me below, and then I quoted your response to Doug Salzman right below that.
Have another cup of coffee.
Nothing you wrote in your current response is about what I wrote.
If you don’t want to engage, that’s fine.
I see that — I did get my sub-threads confused.
I am defending the morality and just values of the people you are obscenely demonizing. Secular, civil libertarian people opposing the vile and tyrannical policies of Baathist Syria. The notion that they should not “undermine” their country is a morally absurd position.
(Moreover, the American revolution was, in fact, facilitated by French, Scot and British supporters of the revolutionaries, including harboring spies. I don’t remotely condemn that. But I ultimately do not care about distinctions of strategy.)
It is absolutely immoral, positively disgusting, not to morally support those opposing severe and murderous tyranny. I cannot, literally cannot, understand a morality such as yours. I am a universalist, and the idea that “sovereign” boundaries are somehow sacrosanct as against evil tyrants is, it’s just reactionary.
The comparison you are making between the American Revolution and the regime change war by proxy in Syria is still silly, despite your tidbit about foreign supporters and harboring spies.
The differences are so vast, that these minor similarities are meaningless.
Your earlier comment suggests you think the French would have been justified in sending the most immoral of mercenaries to fight the British in the American colonies despite opposition by the majority of colonists and regardless of the devastation it caused.
To continue the analogy, you seem to be saying that if a small minority of American colonists had welcomed those mercenaries after the fact and joined the fight, their position would be the “moral one with just values”, while the majority of American colonists opposed to the foreign intervention would have been immoral and disgusting.
I agree that the morality of the peaceful protestors against Assad was sound and that they had just values and that they deserved our moral support… despite the fact that the Assad regime is by many measures less murderous and tyrannical than our own.
I don’t agree that peaceful democratic means of fighting for civil liberties had been exhausted.
I don’t think that the foreign regime change war by proxy is justified.
I don’t agree that the minority of Syrians who welcomed the regime change war by proxy after the fact and joined the fight are making a moral decision or that they have a just values. I think there is a valid distinction between them and the peaceful protestors.
We’re going to have to agree to disagree.
To the extent that you actually engaged on the points I was making, I think your views on this matter are wrong, but I won’t question your morality or insult you.
(and I still think you’re conflating my views with those of other commenters)
Jesus on a crutch:
It cannot be “silly” or anything else, because I didn’t make any such comparison. Go reread my immediately preceding comment — I could not have been more explicit that I was dealing in abstract principle, and not specifics. I included the (true) information about the American revolutionary war as a parenthetical. You absolutely do not grasp what I “seem” to be saying, which need not be inferred, because I’ve been quite explicit.
That’s a judgment dispute, not a disagreement in principle. It’s quite distinct, as a reason to reject Western intervention, from what you’d initially said:
I do not care if there exists an “outside regime change” movement that would also be happy about an intervention, if a severely murderous and oppressive regime is opposed by a critical mass of local people who could be assisted without making the carnage infinitely worse, and who would not be as bad as or worse than what they replace. Nor do I think Baathism can be voted out.
That is, if neoconservatives were right in their various suppositions (or what they pitch to the public about their suppositions), I’d be one. Just as I’d have been a Stalinist Marxist if their suppositions had been true.
Evil can and should be opposed when the cost of doing so is not itself worse.
Yes, I am a pain in the ass.
I kept coming back to it because I was trying to elicit your opinion on the specific questions surrounding the US support for the regime change war by proxy, and you stuck to abstract principle… only taking a clear stand against a direct US military intervention.
I truly value your opinions… and when you disagree with me I want to get into the nitty gritty details so I know why. Annoying you was not my goal. I will try to be more direct. I apologize.
Now, in your reply you wrote “if a severely murderous and oppressive regime is opposed by a critical mass of local people who could be assisted without making the carnage infinitely worse, and who would not be as bad as or worse than what they replace”… you would support assisting them.
And then in your response to Baldur Dasche above you wrote almost the same thing-
“If those opposing murderous tyranny in Syria could be assisted without making the carnage and chaos worse, if they could be assisted without out risking a hot war with Russia, if they could be assisted without murderous theocrats probably replacing Assad, if all of that, I would endorse assisting them.
But none of that is the case. So I don’t.”
The US backed regime change war by proxy has-
– “made the carnage and chaos infinitely worse”
– “murderous theocrats” are the dominant force who would replace Assad if he fell
So here’s what I want to know… despite the fact that a hot war with Russia wasn’t being risked, does that mean you believe the US backed regime change war by proxy in which we armed and funded al Qaida types was a mistake?
Do you think we should stop arming and funding them?
Do you think we should pressure our “allies” to stop their support too?
(why couldn’t I have just written that paragraph two days ago?)
A
The problem here is that the evidence of the non-Islamist, non-Sunni theocratic armed rebels is very thin – even in this article. What will probably happen with the overthrow of Assad is that the Islamists will take over and liquidate any ‘democratic’ or secular opposition too. This is the tale of the tape in Iraq, in Libya, in Afghanistan. Certainly Hillary Clinton will use these people as props when she institutes her ‘no fly zone’, but the real victors will be the fundies backed by the Saudis and Qataris. Unfortunately Mr. Hussain even has been publicizing semi-Nusra front rebels in an earlier article.
The only people I support right now are the Kurds and the PKK. They are the only ones who have not based on right-wing religious fundamentalism and actually have armed forces who are viable. Independence for Kurdistan.
Only in dreams there is a viable secular opposition. They
Only in dreams there is a viable secular opposition. They are outnumbered and outgunned by others. At best they were fools used by the US in their effort to destroy the country. In fact you even could consider these people as traitors of their country following orders from a foreign nation, a known enemy of the country. The fact US ambassador Robert Ford and the French ambassador walked in front of these demonstrations from day one should have made them see things clearly. But it didn’t. So traitors or big fools.
NO.
It is never wrong to defend secular, civil libertarian values in the face of tyranny. If such be treason, treason is good. (That is not, at all, to justify any means.)
You have no business lecturing anyone else about failure to “see things clearly.”
“You have no business lecturing anyone else about failure to “see things clearly.””
Project often?
You are an antisemite pissed at me for calling you out as one. You also, therefore, have no business addressing the morality of anything.
Additionally, you have repeatedly defamed me, claiming I said an odious thing, then insisting you would locate it, but never doing so. Because I did not and would not say it.
You are in the category of dahoit and Craig Summers, to wit: if you approved of me I’d be deeply worried.
You, -Mona-, have no working moral compass; it spins as do your tales.
You, with your catholic upbringing, declared you “had to resist the urge to inflict intolerable pain upon” some other commenter you had declared to be an anti-Semite. That’s a verbatim quote which I declare under penalty of perjury.
The number of times you have declared a commenter is morally bankrupt enough to banned is the real head-spinner. You claim to be Glenn’s former law partner but, since Glenn’s original claim to fame was defending the Nazis right to free speech ( I’m going to go out on a limb and say the Nazis are anti Semites …), you in no way honor Glenn by attacking the messenger.
You remind us that it is easy to find public records which show Mona as co-counsel with Glenn, as you constantly remind us of your ride on his coat-tails.
As Glenn reminds us, you can be anyone on the internet.
Mona behaves identically to the most disruptive commenter ever to troll Glenn, in my opinion. She attacks random commenters, as well as regulars, with ferocity.
She hurls invective reflexively.
I’m hugely disappointed that The Intercept has drunk the kool-aid of regime change in Syria.
Leaked diplomatic cable reveals that the U.S. has been working to destabilize Syria, wanting regime change since 2006.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/us-secretly-backed-syrian-opposition-groups-cables-released-by-wikileaks-show/2011/04/14/AF1p9hwD_story.html
http://www.truth-out.org/progressivepicks/item/33180-wikileaks-reveals-how-the-us-aggre
https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/06DAMASCUS5399_a.html
Political dissidents may have noble objectives, but they have been used by the U.S. as tools for regime change.
The White Helmets, also given positive press by The Intercept, are tools of regime change.
http://www.syria-infoandaction.com has links to articles from varied sources for understanding the Syrian conflict.
yet another Islamist Sunni sympathizer trying to white helmet his true intentions. He wants a Syria where the religious minorities are subject to the rules of his dominant religion. Democracy is not majority dictatorship. yes we know he is not ISIS he is “moderate”.
How do you tell the difference between a radical leftist and a Russian-bot? That is not an easy question to answer. Their anti-Americanism is identical. Indeed, it can sometimes be really difficult to distinguish a radical leftist from a white supremacist. Both promote many of the same Jewish conspiracy theories. A white supremacist promotes racism while the underlying philosophy of the far left is extreme anti-racism – and that is one of the main differentiating characteristics online (although many racists will attempt to hide that behind anti-Jewish bigotry).
A Russian-bot is difficult to distinguish from an extreme leftist because they assume many of the same radical positions. The goal is to influence US policy with propaganda. Russian-bots will never admit they are from Russia. I have yet to post to anyone at the Guardian or the Intercept that (proudly) admits they are from or support Russia. Some positions of Russian-bots on current events:
1. A democratically elected government of Ukraine was overthrown in a US sponsored coup.
2. The referendum in Crimea was free and fair. The people of Crimea chose freely to leave Ukraine.
3. Crimea was always a part of Russia.
4. Russia is protecting ethnic Russians in Eastern Ukraine.
5. Russia didn’t shoot down Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17
6. Nazis are running the Ukraine government
7. The US is supporting Nazis in Ukraine
8. Assad is fighting the “war on terror”.
9. Assad didn’t use chemical weapons.
10. The Russians didn’t attack the aid convoy.
11. The opposition in Syria are ALL terrorists.
12. The US is supporting the jihadists/terrorism in Syria (rather than bombing them).
13. The US created ISIS.
14. There is no proof that Russia bombed the UN aid convoy
Of course, these positions have all been defended by extreme left wingers as well. Additionally, neither one cares one iota about the humanitarian crisis in Syria as the White Helmets article by Murtaza Hussain so vividly demonstrated.
I certainly look forward to some input from others on how to distinguish a Russian-bot from a far left wing hack……especially (PNAC-inspired) DocHollywood
you are so stupid you have just pointed 14 strait facts!
“1. A democratically elected government of Ukraine was overthrown in a US sponsored coup.
2. The referendum in Crimea was free and fair. The people of Crimea chose freely to leave Ukraine.
3. Crimea was always a part of Russia.
4. Russia is protecting ethnic Russians in Eastern Ukraine.
5. Russia didn’t shoot down Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17
6. Nazis are running the Ukraine government
7. The US is supporting Nazis in Ukraine
8. Assad is fighting the “war on terror”.
9. Assad didn’t use chemical weapons.
10. The Russians didn’t attack the aid convoy.
11. The opposition in Syria are ALL terrorists.
12. The US is supporting the jihadists/terrorism in Syria (rather than bombing them).
13. The US created ISIS.
14. There is no proof that Russia bombed the UN aid convoy”
and one thing more…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXS3vW47mOE
oh wait… it was a russian bot that created a high raking US official that in 2007 states that since 2001 the US is going to invade 7 countries (just missing iran by now)!
its so easy to uncover a liar!
its not russia the invades countries murders thousands and displaces millions you lousy NSA bot!
Jack
“……..oh wait… it was a russian bot that created a high raking US official that in 2007 states that since 2001 the US is going to invade 7 countries (just missing iran by now)!…..”
Such great plans by the neocons. Unfortunately, their power dwindled in the second term of the Bush administration. They had zero influence on the Obama administration. What you are forgetting (and want to forget) is that Assad initiated the conflict by cracking down on peaceful protesters which had absolutely nothing to do with the neocons. Here is how Amnesty International described the events in 2011:
“……When army tanks recently rolled into the city of Dera’a in southern Syria and began shelling residential areas, the human rights crisis in the country reached a new low. More than 400 people have died across Syria since protestors calling for political reform took to the streets in mid-March. Hundreds of people have been arbitrarily arrested and detained incommunicado, placing them at serious risk of torture [or execution] and other ill-treatment. Torture of detainees has long been common and endemic in Syria…..Amnesty International has repeatedly urged the Syrian government to rein in the security forces……The Syrian authorities have failed to take these steps and intensified repression.Consequently, Amnesty International has called on the UN Security Council to refer Syria to the Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court, to impose an arms embargo and to freeze the assets abroad of the Syrian President and his senior associates……..”
The neocons had no influence on those events – and the Obama administration certainly didn’t take advice from neocons. Even Bush rejected the Israel plan to bomb the Iranian nuclear reactors in late 2007 at the end of the Bush second term. And no neocon would have agreed to the nuclear agreement with Iran. So while the neocons had great plans, they were not implemented in Syria.
“……its so easy to uncover a liar!…..”
Not as easy as you thought, but it is always easy to expose someone who doesn’t know what he is talking about.
Thanks.
Right on cue Jack. Thanks.
Remarkable quotes by below-the-line commentators at the Intercept:
Richard Pearce apparently worried about the maligned Assad regime:
“…….Secondly, you have answered my question despite your attempt at burying it under the campaign to demonize the Syrian government for daring to not let the US dictate who governs Syria…..” – Richard Pearce
DocHollywood attempting to blame the war in Syria on PNAC:
“…….“. . .The war [of aggression, the “supreme international war crime” in the words of the Nuremberg Tribunals,] was initiated by the A[merican] regime [as described years ago in the PNAC and subsequently confirmed by Former Supreme Military Commander of NATO , General Wesley Clark, and Former Director of the US Defense Intelligence Agency, General Michael Flynn]. Bringing up PNAC simply [confirms the supreme international war crime had been planned all along, but to a dishonest psychopath that fact] doesn’t mean anything. . .”……” – DocHollywood
Doug Salzmann blaming Russian and Syrian regime war crimes on the US:
“…….what would they have to do with — let alone justify — Russian and Syrian bombing of civilians and hospitals?……” – GK James
“……..When you start wars, that act (starting wars) has everything to do with the horrors of war that follow. That’s why “[p]lanning, preparation, initiation or waging of a war of aggression or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements or assurances” is a crime (a “crime against peace”) under international law. See Principle VI of the Nuremberg Principles…….” – Doug Salzmann
Doug Salzmann response to Murtaza Hussain’s White Helmets article:
“……….Maz, this is vile and dishonest propaganda for terrorist collaborators and frontmen — and worse, terrorists themselves — funded and guided by the US and Western allies………Your piece above the line is just the sort of bullshit that is regularly proffered by the dutiful and compliant stenographers of the MSM, in service to the US/Western regime-changers who have taken advantage of unrest in Syria to blast the country to pieces, creating a holocaust for the people, littering the land with hundreds of thousands of bodies and body parts and driving more than four million into exile……” – Doug Salzmann
Jamie complementing the article by Murtaza Hussain
“……What absurd propaganda……In Hussain’s attempt to dupe the readers of the Intercept……..Hussain also ignores international law. Hussain is very similar to the neocons………It appears the Intercept has a ‘little Goebbels’ writing for them……He would author propaganda just like this article……..” – Jamie
Maisie and others
The article by Murtaza Hussain is anything but offensive. It simply tells the true story of a democracy movement crushed by the most brutal dictator in the Middle East – bar none. The article has been heavily criticized because it implies that there is a legitimate (and democratic) movement against Assad which openly began in 2011 with country-wide demonstrations. Assad initiated the war by choosing to challenge the democracy movement with military force (much like his father did in 1982 at Hama). The democracy movement still exists, albeit underground (or in military opposition), but suppressing the truth about the opposition is job one for Assad, Putin, Russian TV, Russian-bots and the anti-American left. For example (Maisie writes):
“………notice how the US has just recently complained about the Russians bombing their “rebels” – who the Russians believe are, well, terrorists……”
It is as important that Putin and Assad paint the opposition in Syria as (all) terrorists as Russian TV labeling the Ukrainian opposition as Nazis. Jamie (on this thread) captures Russian TV talking points in one sentence:
“…….Total political correctness in the United States, yet an admiration for a president who has armed and trained Nazi battalions in the Ukraine and supports Jihadist invasions, by armies that hate gays, women, and engage in ethnic cleansing……”
If Trump were to label all refugees as jihadists invaders that hate gays and women, he would be rightly called a racist, but labeling the opposition to Assad as all terrorists/jihadists is just as racist in its implications – and simply political propaganda (and an outright lie). There are lots of people in the Middle East that support democracy. The Arab Spring proved that beyond a shadow of a doubt. Peaceful demonstrations for political rights spread across Syria in 2011 which Assad crushed with military force (murdering hundreds). That movement still exists in the civilian population and in military opposition to Assad (obviously the more effective military opposition are the Islamic terrorists like al-Nusra and ISIS).
The terrorist is Hellary Clinton and her support for genocide in Palestine, genocide in Syria, coups in Egypt, Libya, Syria and the Honduras, and the murder of Berta Cáceres.
And now she is a confirmed criminal in her quid pro quo action in Morocco.
https://theintercept.com/2016/03/11/drugs-dams-and-power-the-murder-of-honduran-activist-berta-caceres/
People who support Hellary remind me of Nazi’s.
Calm down barrabas. Jesus loves Hillary too.
I suppose then that Jesus does not love the…..Russians.
I am not sure there is anyone lower than Hillary, so if Jesus loves Hillary, he loves everyone.
I am not capturing Russian TV talking points when I point out the fact that Obama has trained and armed Nazi battalions in the Ukraine for the purpose of regime change — but instead I am simply drawing on the fact that *all* members of the House, both parties, voted to restrict Obama’s training of Nazis:
https://consortiumnews.com/2015/06/12/u-s-house-admits-nazi-role-in-ukraine/
““I am grateful that the House of Representatives *unanimously* passed my amendments last night to ensure that our military does not train members of the repulsive neo-Nazi Azov Battalion.”
– John Conyers (D)
Craig is the one duped by media — he is not even aware of simple legislative realities. I guess Rachel Maddow never told him Obama used Nazis for regime change in the Ukraine a few months before an election.
“The Times has chosen to simply be a fount of State Department propaganda, often terming any reference to Kiev’s Nazi storm troopers to be “Russian propaganda.” Now, however, a unanimous U.S. House of Representatives — of all things — has acknowledged the unpleasant truth.”
– Robert Perry
Jamie
“…….“I am grateful that the House of Representatives unanimously passed my amendments last night to ensure that our military does not train members of the repulsive neo-Nazi Azov Battalion.”…..” – John Conyers (D)
Interesting how the Russian government happily did business with the “neo-Nazis” while the Russian puppet, Viktor Yanukovych, was in power. Once Yanukovych “relocated” to Russia, suddenly, the Ukraine government is run by a bunch of “Nazis”. “Nazis” didn’t bother Putin until the Ukrainian democratic revolution ousted Yanukovych and Ukraine developed closer ties to Europe and the hated US.
No doubt there are Nazis in Ukraine (the US and everywhere else as well). However, Russia has its own share of white supremacists and neo-Nazis. It was Russian anti-Jewish pogroms which mobilized the Zionist movement in the late 1800s and early 1900s in eastern Europe/Russia. Russia hosted a far right conference in 2015 (reminding me of the Iranian Holocaust denial conference hosted by Ahmadinejad in Tehran). While condemning Ukraine’s Nazis, Putin encourages far right nationalism (Buzzfeed):
“……..Russia’s appeal to Europe’s fringe was on full show Sunday at the International Russian Conservative Forum, a conference organized by a pro-Kremlin ultranationalist ……..United by their hatred of Washington, the European Union, and LGBT people, about 200 far-right politicians and activists from across Europe gathered in St. Petersburg’s Holiday Inn to rail against liberal tolerance and implore Russia to lead the fight for Christian morality…….. Rhetoric at the conference, however, outstripped — and sometimes contradicted — Russia’s official line. Of the three members of the European Parliament there, one, Germany’s Udo Voigt, has described Adolf Hitler as a “great German statesman.” The other two hail from Greece’s Golden Dawn, whose logo is a barely disguised swastika. “It’s a bizarre lineup,” Jared Taylor, an American “racial realist,” told BuzzFeed News. “It’s the fringe of the fringe.” Speakers railed, variously, against Freemasons; the corrupting influence of Hollywood; “Nazi fascists in the EU”; a “global cabal” of “bloodsucking oligarchs”; non-white immigrants practicing “alien traditions”; “fags and dykes”; and “Zionist puppet filth.”…..”
Azov is a single battalion which is what the US bill covered. They have been incorporated into the Ukrainian National Guard today and the bill passed Congress (Wikipedia):
“…………More than half of the Battalion members are from eastern Ukraine and speak Russian,[8] and some of its recruits come from the eastern cities of Donetsk and Luhansk……The Azov Battalion has its roots in a group of Ultras of FC Metalist Kharkiv named “Sect 82″ (1982 is the year of the founding of the group).[14] “Sect 82″ was (at least until September 2013) allied with FC Spartak Moscow Ultras………..According to The Daily Telegraph, the Azov Battalion’s extremist politics and professional English social media pages have attracted foreign fighters,[21] including people from Ireland, Italy, United Kingdom, France, America, Greece and Scandinavia.[2][21] Sweden, Spain[2][47] and Russia[48] About 50 Russian nationals are members of the Azov regiment….”
Over half are from eastern Ukraine Including 50 Russian nationals which indicates that the rebels probably also have their fair shares of Nazis (supported by Putin).
Thanks.
@TallyHoGazeHound
No, nor do I about his POV. But I do denounce the things he’s said about those who disagree. It’s simply disgusting to speak that way of good people rather than deal in good faith with their sincere and non-trivial objections.
Moreover, I can’t say flattering things about all of his articles; my opinion of several of his Syria pieces is, well, quite low. But I disagree with the hysterics of, e.g., photosymbiosis, in accusing Maz of being some USAID operative and all that kind of shit.
I note, however, that almost no prominent, non-anonymous activists speak that way; the bile is almost all coming from those on Maz’s Syria team.
The Intercept is occasionally brilliant but often offensive, becoming increasingly less “fearlessly adversarial” to the status quo in an overall sense with each passing day. If there isn’t a deliberate attempt to promulgate establishment corruption under the guise of journalism, there are a number of times it has happened regardless. There are indeed indications of dubious goings-on, perhaps not so sinister as some might assert, but it’s still very disappointing that in a general sense the power of the publication is oddly subdued by…something.
No.
You were drafting that as I was drafting my addendum below. I completely disagree.
I don’t know how you can confidently state nothing dubious is occurring, as something stinks a bit; but if you’re right, that means there is incredible mismanagement of the organization and a miserable failure to present a coherent, cohesive, activist product with integrity, which is disappointing but plainly less so.
Glenn Greenwald, Laura Poitras and Jeremy Scahill are neither fools nor knaves. Two things are causing some significant unhappiness here — and everywhere — at the moment: 1. Election ’16 , and 2. Syria.
Both of those issues are causing tremendous upheavals in established political alignments; some sort of realignment has been happeneing, but it isn’t yet clear how long it will last, or if it is more or less permanent.
I think Bob Mackey is more of an establishment, neoliberal than many may have realized when he was hired, in light of his position on Israel-Palestine. He’s certainly more interested in pushing Trump’s every inanity to a degree sensible people would simply find as uninteresting as it is a waste of time and attention. But that helps Hillary, or so he probably figures. Or, he may have become a Hilary fan mostly out of horror of Trump — that’s happened to people I’ve respected and I can barely stand to continue following them on Twitter.
Syria is even more disruptive of the left. I’ve not seen anything like it, and it is global. To understate, this disruption here at The Intercept is merely a reflection of a larger phenomenon, and not remotely particular to, or informative of, this site.
“……Syria is even more disruptive of the left. I’ve not seen anything like it, and it is global. To understate, this disruption here at The Intercept is merely a reflection of a larger phenomenon, and not remotely particular to, or informative of, this site……”
Could it have something to do with the brutal bombing in Aleppo carried on by Russia and the Assad regime Mona? It is bound to touch the conscience of people who really do give a shit about that kind of thing – you know liberals as opposed to radical leftists.
READERS: About 95% of the time I do not substantively reply to Craig Summers, who is an authoritarian, pro-torture, Republican Trump-voter. Multiple commenters asked that I not reply to Craig because doing so causes him to post yet more walls of drivel-text, which pollute the board.
This is a course I shall continue in this thread, and one I highly recommend to others.
ADDING: Contra Maisie, Maz is not a “terrorist sympathizer.” He’s so appalled and desperate about Assad and the endless carnage in Syria, that he’s not exercising sufficiently critical judgment. That is, I strongly suspect he’s letting his emotions get the better of him.
Despair over the slaughter in Syria is more than understandable, but especially in a journalist, it cannot excuse a failure of critical thinking. Columns that strongly appear to take seriously an Al Qaeda group rebranding itself, such as Maz wrote, constitute a failure of judgment.
But Murtaza Hussain is a known person for quite a few years, and it defies belief that someone of his ideological profile has been some sleeper agent on behalf of American empire, or that he actually loves Islamist terrorists. I flatly do not believe it. Especially given that he’s not remotely alone on the left — these people have not all been doing an elaborate head fake.
Several nights ago a Gazan I’ve followed on Twitter for some time felt compelled to block me. He did this after I repeatedly berated him for the foul things he was attributing to unnamed “leftists.” He absolutely refused to directly address the fact of Russia’s sincere belief it is protecting vital interests, and the risks inherent in U.S. military action opposed to Russia.
Like so many, his shtick in a litany of generalities about unnamed “the left,” and fallacies, most especially ad hominem and straw men. I won’t tolerate that, but it is is very unfortunately common in a sector of the left. They see the hideous suffering of Syrians as basically another chance for a “good war” a la WWII.
They are wrong, but it’s the result, for most of them, of delusion borne of despair.
I think anyone who supports the “rebels” in Syria is a terrorist sympathizer – it’s not just him. I say it to be deliberately provocative, hopefully to arouse the conscience – not to damn the individual or group but to stir their innate ability to see the moral incongruence of their support for corrupt militarism.
I’m incensed by many atrocities in the world, but I’ll never let that make me advocate interventionism against sovereign nations, and I find it extremely offensive when people make emotionally manipulative arguments for anything for which the military-industrial complex is obviously aiming.
I’m not especially impressed with “sovereign nations” as a category for determining what actions may morally be met with defensive force. It’s all about practicalities to me, including the risk in building more wealth and power for the global MIC – that all goes in the column against.
But it is possible to imagine a situation in which the calculation would be to intervene. That just hasn’t presented itself in any recent times. Given current realities, it is very unlikely to.
Objection sustained. I used “sovereign nations” as a kind of shorthand for a more comprehensive array of reasons for a stance of non-interventionism, one which I can’t be bothered to go into now. I shouldn’t have been so absolutist, perhaps, but I’m glad we can agree that the “humanitarian” interventionists have been the boy who cried wolf.
So you don’t consider Hussain being mercilessly trolled by Assad supporters, and called “terrorist sympathizer” , “AlQaeda promoter” , etc. as bile ?
1. I do not accept — and indeed, find offensive — that Maz Hussain is being challenged by “Assad supporters.” Certainly not Western ones, if any.
2. There’s a basis in reality for accusing Maz of being an Al Qaeda promoter. By contrast, no anti-interventionist of any note accused of being an “Assad supporter” has said anything suggesting anything good about Assad. Or, if such examples exist, I’ve seen no evidence for it.
As for “terrorist sympathizer,” I pretty much reject that accusation across the board. Whether hurled at pro-Palestinians or interventionists such as Maz Hussain. Among other things, “terrorism” on the part of Hamas or Al Qaeda does not undermine, standing alone, their respective causes.
People shouldn’t call Maz that, but I guarantee you he and his ilk long, long before this have been spewing deeply offensive garbage at prominent left-wing activists. By contrast, I’m aware of no prominent voices calling Maz a “terrorist sympathizer.” Even if there are, again, the overwhelming bulk of the bile has long been coming from the interventionists.
I find it amusing that you say “I do not accept- and indeed find offensive , that Maz Hussain is being challenged by Assad supporter”, and then immediately proceed to do that by accusing him of being an AlQaeda supporter.
You sound pretty confused to me. I am getting the impression , that , you are torn between you dislike for Hussain, and your fear of offending Glenn Greenwald…who you know supports the journalism of Hussain, and wants the writers at the Intecept to have the freedom to express their views.
Also you claim to not be a Assad supporter, yet in an earlier post to another Maz Hussain column, you stated that Assad was the democratically elected president of Syria.
“Also you [-Mona-] claim to not be a Assad supporter, yet in an earlier post to another Maz Hussain column, you stated that Assad was the democratically elected president of Syria.”
Get used to that phenomenon. It is how a contrarian behaves.
Well, yes, facts do not change because one finds them distasteful. At least not for intellectually respectable people, and I am an intellectually respectable person.
You “know” nothing” of the sort. In point of fact Glenn and I have extensively discussed my views on Maz Hussain’s columns and the things Maz has said to others on Twitter — those things Maz said made me furious as I’ve been saying on Twitter, including to Glenn, for at least a month both in public and privately. What Glenn said in his emails back to me, however, is private, and I won’t discuss it beyond saying you have no idea what you are talking about.
Take heart, however, you’ve picked up support from one of the worst antisemites at this site. He’s a nut, he makes shit up, including fabricating nonsense I’ve supposedly said, but he’s you best bud as long as you are attacking me. (It’s true I was raised Catholic, and went to Notre Dame Law; nuf is obsessed with my lapsed Catholicism but weirdly is equally obsessed with denying that I’m Glenn’s former Notre Dame Law grad partner, Mona Holland. As I said, he’s a nut.)
If Occupy Wall Street had been seized on as an opportunity for first the ‘freeman movement’ (the folks who took over the wildlife sanctuary) and then the Klan to try and violently overthrow the Obama regime (using Russian weapons and funding) would they be hailed for their revolt against totalitarianism?
the only good change America will make must start with a DOI & USC rewrite. NOTHING else will work, especially untold number of patches which becomes more of a legal nightmare.
Donald Trump is correct when he indicates we need to start over.
Let’s consider a few more basic points here”
2) The real agenda in the Middle East, in terms of Aleppo vs. Mosul?
I mean really, isn’t it clear that the likes of Robert Mackey and Murtaza Hussain are working for the USAID/State Department propaganda system in alliance with the “Omidyar Networks” which have also been active in the Ukraine coup? This is a ever-more-common theme; the US system has become so grossly corrupt that the government is increasingly relying on partnerships with billionaires to promote their agendas.
What the Intercept won’t be discussing, guaranteed, is Pierre Omidyar’s tax dodge schemes related to EBay and Ebay Zurich, the Swiss banking tax dodge system Omidyar has been using to avoid paying taxes to the American government. . .
http://thenewdaily.com.au/money/finance-news/2016/07/18/ebay-australia-own-goal/
That’s the real nature of this farcical news outlet that Glen Greenwald and Jeremey Scahill and Laura Poitras have given their imprimatur to, what a pack of tools. “We hit the jackpot” – yup, you sold your souls for a bit of cash, and now look at you – pathetic. Aren’t you embarrassing yourselves?
Let’s consider a few basic points here:
1) Reporters tasked with covering “The Middle East” beat would do well to emulate the example of Robert Fisk, who has reported from Iran, Iraq, Turkey, Lebanon. . . Where do the current “Syria reporters” report from, in contrast? Toronto Canada? Ha ha ha. That’s ludicrous. Here’s Robert Fisk’s latest, compare and contrast:
http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/10/18/after-mosul-falls-isis-will-flee-to-syria-then-what/
I mean, any rational informed person would conclude that the Intercept is acting as an arm of the US State Department in promoting a PR line that favors the ongoing effort to overthrow Assad and install a puppet client regime that will greenlight the Qatar-to-Europe gas pipeline, and reject the Iran-to-Europe gas pipeline, right? Let’s see what Robert Fisk – who I’ve closely followed for the past 20 years, with great respect – has to say:
When the Intercept sends its reporters overseas to cover these stories, and pays their expense accounts, I’ll consider what they have to say. But this model of “news”, sitting at home spewing BS that pleases Pierre Omidyar and so perpetuates your salary check, really, GFY.
Your ignorant misinformed trolling of Murtaza Hussain is pathetic . What makes you so sure the Intercept don’t send their reporters overseas ? Why are you assuming Hussain wasn’t spending weeks reporting for the refugee camps ?
Murtaza did travel to Turkey to report this story. I hope you decide to consider what he has to say.
TalleyHoGazeHound writes of Maz’s piece above:
It almost certainly is. Most unfortunately, Maz, like the neoliberal shills he RTs, says foul and nasty things about anti-interventionists, and simply cannot ascribe anything but utter bad faith to them. He’s not alone among various activists on the left in that, and it’s disgusting. So for him, it’s all pretty much always about military intervention.
Maz had been naming names, but now, like so many who take his view, he traffics in generalities about “the left,” “the hard left” and on in that vein. Saying horrible things about some supposed significant mass of comrades who are now purportedly exposed as foul, evil and — as the Brookings asshole he RTed put today — “morally bankrupt.” That, and their “reasoning” tends to be utterly fallacious
I’ve really about had it with this cowardly, intellectually corrupt and nasty garbage. Such antics are common from Israel apologists and to be expected, but I’m willing to tolerate very little from those I supposedly am in league with.
I cast no aspersions on Maz. As for the Twitter-Harangue that has ensued, I’ve – literally – muted it. As Ross Douthat observed in an op-ed today, Hillary Clinton will pursue the instincts of the beltway consensus. And, that most likely means that Maz will get his wish – and I would suggest to him that he be careful what he wishes for. Because if history is any guide these Syrian revolutionaries will get the “beneficence” of the good old U S of A good and hard, and in a way that suits the pecuniary interests of those with the power to direct the “intervention.” Maz, and the revolutionaries of whom he writes, should look to Iraq and Afghanistan and Yemen and ask themselves about the cost benefit ratio run through those filters. Our days of Marshall Plans are behind us; it was a different universe of time. And, neither Maz, nor his revolutionaries, will have any ability to effect, or steer, the intervention they’ve wished for. To be brutally frank, their wishes dimply will not matter. Those wishes and the people who have them are disposable.
The best I have to offer Maz is the caution that there is nothing in our current history, or recent past, to suggest the “assistance” of the USG will accomplish more than a rain of death and destruction that might – but more probably won’t – obtain to the benefit of those about whom he writes. [Insert the soliloquy from Macbeth Act 5, Scene 5 here].
The post lightly [edited] for truth:
“Who listens to th[ese half-truths] anymore? Three more instances of [Syrian atrocities atop the many instances of US and US-proxy atrocities] without any consequences.
Obama [committed a war crime] when he signed[-on to the long-standing plans] to remove Assad [without regard for the international and American laws he violates or the ISIS/Al Nusra atrocities he abets]. Why would [anyone] take US [sermons on the rule of law, human rights, or democracy] seriously under [any circumstance]?
It’s all a load of BS – you know the annexation of Crimea, [the invasion of Iraq], the downing of Mala[y]sian [Air] flight 17, [the downing of Iran Air flight 655,] the Russian military in Ukraine, [the US military in Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan] and support for [ISIS/Al Nusra]. All BS [when presented as half-truths “for political purposes”]. C[iting] the UN findings concerning the use of chemical weapons by Assad [is BS if one won’t even acknowledge the same concerning the use of American-made cluster bombs by Saudi Arabia].
Indeed, the repeated bombing of hospitals[, funerals, schools, weddings, and markets] in Aleppo by Russia and Syria [and in Yemen by Saudi Arabia and in Afghanistan and Iraq by the US]
wais all BS [if only half-truths are told].There] were the charges of war crimes by UN human rights chief, Zeid Ra’ad al Hussein, posted below [in standard BS form as it is a half-truth leaving out the same charges made against Saudi Arabia. Also left out was that every attack by the US in Syria is a de facto war crime]).
It’s all a big conspiracy [aimed at those hypocritical rubes who mindlessly swallow and then dutifully regurgitate reports of atrocities by others while literally ignoring – and even excusing – US and US-proxy atrocities].
Unsung heroes who deserve to have their names in the history books…. if that is the essence of this piece, Maz, with the understanding that the process is ongoing with other shoulders joining them at the wheel… And, the ultimate goal is more of, and a sustaining of:
…that’s laudable. And, the purpose of this piece, then, is to raise an awareness, you’re succeeding.
But, if the unstated premise is to imply a role for other nations to engage in this struggle, I can’t see the hope of it. Certainly, the USA has demonstrated itself to be singularly incompetent in fostering the kinds of civil society, and the evolution of institutions, acknowledged in the blockquote above. Even if Americans wanted to support that pursuit, those efforts would be subverted, corrupted, and forever tainted into illegitimacy by our current government – to say nothing of the one arriving in January. Regardless of the instincts of the most altruistic of American citizens, the pecuniary desires of our corporatist government has nothing of use to afford those revolutionaries.
Just what makes you think HRC will take the reigns of govt in January?
Serial liars?
Worshipping the life of death. Interesting concept. Lots of plusses and minuses there. The US marines train youth that they are useless lives, owned by the corps, already dead but not killed yet, glory in dead heroship. ISIS does the same thing. 73 virgins or your own planets from Kolob runs a fine second place. Fear of death is conquered when glorified and welcomed. Living proof of graveyards of millions of graves soon to be billions and covering the earth.
choose your pain.
And to the more skeptical commentators here, I say never get so cynical about people that you get depressed and do nothing or corrupt and do something evil.
So much is written about Syria that is propaganda, plain and simple. This article, for all its attempts at doe-eyed innocence, is no exception. The fact is that central to this conflict is no ‘civil war,’ it is an issue of competing proposals for gas pipelines, one supported by the U.S. and one supported by the Russians. Neglecting to point out the fucking obvious, propagandists on both sides are constantly avoiding telling the truth.
Is the fight over a gas pipeline fuelling the world’s bloodiest conflict?
Add to this Hillary Clinton’s obvious desire for regime change in Syria and her vindictiveness toward Assad, Iran and the Russians, and you have the reason why Western propaganda about this is so transparently pathetic and dangerous even as it pretends to be oh-so humanitarian.
I think your dismissal of the rebels as “doe-eyed” innocents who do not understand the proxy fight is true but not just. While I agree that the initial and, indeed, non-violent rebellion has been corrupted, it is still virtuous–even if its virtues are denigrated and not valued.
I don’t think the “rebels” (what is this, Star Wars?) are doe-eyed innocents, in fact I know damn well some of them are terrorists, if that word means anything. The doe-eyed innocence is in sarcastic reference to Murtaza Hussein, who has been trying to get a sympathetic angle on the reprehensible characters supported by the US, Qatar and Saudi Arabia to stick for several articles now.
The US is a terrorist sympathizer in this situation (not that the other side is saintly) and so is Hussein.
“……not that the other side is saintly…..”
The biggest terrorist in this war is Assad. No other organization or nation-state even comes close. Assad even makes Russia look saintly – and Russia has been targeting hospitals and aid convoys (along with normal civilians). And, currently, the US is bombing ISIS and (formerly al-Qaeda) al-Nusra so the US is far from the terrorist sympathizer at this juncture of the war. The US is HELPING Assad the murderer hold on to power.
The US and Qatar and Saudi Arabia (what charming company – almost as appealing as aligning with the murderous, apartheid nation of Israel) are aligned in their goals in Syria, and this has included support of terrorists. You know this, and are trying to distract from it by saying (with no independent evidence) that “currently” things are different when the fact is the entrenching of these common interests has not wavered in the slightest, and with Clinton it is Obviously going to get far worse for Syria. You justify interventionism because of Assad – I suppose then you would agree that we should invade Israel with a goal of regime change, disguising it all as a humanitarian intervention on behalf of the oppressed and butchered Palestinians.
“…….You justify interventionism because of Assad…..” – Maise
I haven’t justified anything. I stated factually that Assad is the biggest terrorists in Syria based on reports by Amnesty International so all of your hand wringing about the US is a terrorist sympathizer ignores that Russia is supporting the biggest terrorist in Syria. Simple Maise!
“……The US and Qatar and Saudi Arabia (what charming company – almost as appealing as aligning with the murderous, apartheid nation of Israel) are aligned in their goals in Syria, and this has included support of terrorists. You know this, and are trying to distract from it by saying (with no independent evidence) that “currently” things are different when the fact is the entrenching of these common interests has not wavered in the slightest……..” – Maise
The US armed opposition groups in Syria which included jihadists at the beginning of the conflict. This was done for geopolitical reasons although this coincided with humanitarian concerns because of the brutal military crack down on protesters by Assad (as outlined by AI). The US has been bombing ISIS and al-Qaeda since late 2014 (Wikipedia):
“……On September 22, 2014, the United States, Bahrain, Jordan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and the United Arab Emirates began to strike targets of the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) inside Syria,[15][95] as well as the Khorasan group in the Idlib Governorate to the west of Aleppo, and the al-Nusra Front around Ar-Raqqah,[21][96] as part of the Military intervention against ISIL…..” – Wikipedia
None of this has anything to do with Israel.
“…….and with Clinton it is Obviously going to get far worse for Syria…..” – Maise
First of all, you have no idea since Clinton is not President yet. Second of all, it’s going to get worse when the Russian fleet and sole aircraft carrier gets to Syria. That is when the blood bath will start (if not sooner) since targeting hospitals and aid convoys is is apparently a military strategy for Russia (remember Grozny?) – and the Assad regime.
Firstly, it’s Maisie, not Maise.
Secondly, please don’t quote Wikipedia about political issies; the US has been supporting terrorists and defending their positions longer than 2014, and if you don’t know that, stop consulting Wikipedia and notice how the US has just recently complained about the Russians bombing their “rebels” – who the Russians believe are, well, terrorists. But of course you don’t believe the Russians, any more than I believe the US govt. Wikipedia is self-evidently establishmentarian hogwash, politically speaking. Notice how the two pipelines (the subject of my initial post) is the actual dynamic of the situation, and how little any of such is mentioned by the establishment or its puppet outlets. Or by you, for that matter. You’d rather distract, justifying the US and allies’ behavior by throwing out verbiage in the hopes that something will resemble a contrary response to my very direct observation that the Saudis, Qatar and the US are still aligned to illegally interfere in Syria.
Thirdly, it has plenty to do with Israel, for if there is cause for interventionism there for humanitarian reasons, there is cause for interventionism in the apartheid state of Israel *and* the Wahhabi (extremist Islam) nation of Saudi Arabia, for both these countries are unforgivably brutal to their inhabitants.
Fourthly, Hillary Clinton’s words have already alarmed Russia, with Gorbachev saying the US/Russia paradigm is at a ‘dangerous point’ because of escalating tensions, and Clinton has obviously exacerbated that with her bellicosity and no-fly zone threats. It is ridiculous of you to persist in arguing that she is not already worsening this horrible situation.
And I’ve told you before: The US is itself the biggest terrorist organization on the planet. This is not hyperbole, and your claims of Assad or Russia being ‘worse’ is manifestly absurd.
Now, try to respond to the Saudi/Qatar/US alliance regarding Iran’s pipeline – THE MAIN POINT I MADE.
Or do your usual bullshit, it’s your choice. Either way, don’t expect a reply this time. It’s evident neither of us will change our minds, but realize the fact that you support what the US has done (and, I argue, continues to do) makes you a terrorist sympathizer, also. And I don’t negotiate with such people.
Maisie
I apologize for getting your name wrong. My Russian is terrible.
“…….and notice how the US has just recently complained about the Russians bombing their “rebels” – who the Russians believe are, well, terrorists…..”
Again Maisie, I know you are familiar with Amnesty International. The Russians are bombing and targeting everything in eastern Aleppo including hospitals, field clinics, aid convoys and civilians. So if you believe the Russians, everyone living in eastern Aleppo including medical workers, doctors, pregnant women and children are terrorists also. Russia is using the same tactics they used in Grozny – level everything. That is why they are called war crimes, OK? If Wikipedia is a bad source, then the Russian government is a worse one.
“……And I’ve told you before: The US is itself the biggest terrorist organization on the planet. This is not hyperbole, and your claims of Assad or Russia being ‘worse’ is manifestly absurd…..”
Just another attempt by you to deflect from the situation in Syria – and charges of war crimes directed at Russian tactics.
“…….Notice how the two pipelines (the subject of my initial post) is the actual dynamic of the situation, and how little any of such is mentioned by the establishment or its puppet outlets. Or by you, for that matter…..”
First of all, the most important fact is that the Russians are supporting the biggest terrorist in Syria and keeping him in power. That goes without say since it is well documented by Amnesty International. Second of all, the pipeline is a simplification of complex geopolitics not the least is the Iran-Saudi Arabia fight for regional supremacy. The Iranian nuclear weapons program certainly did not help alleviate the regional tensions. The US is aligned with Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Israel while the Russians are aligned with Hezbollah, Syria and Iran. Iran has supported terrorism directed at Israel (Hezbollah and Hamas) and is arming the Houthis in Yemen (while the Saudis are bombing the hell out of them). Iran has used Syrian territory to weaponize Hezbollah. The terrorist organization, Hezbollah was created by Iran. The Revolutionary Guard is in Syria along with Hezbollah and Russia. Additionally, this is very much driven by regional sectarian politics – Syria, Yemen and Iraq, for example. Finally, the Arab Spring has played a role as well. The Arab Spring led to the conflict in the first place. So this is far more complicated than just a gas pipeline.
“……Thirdly, it has plenty to do with Israel, for if there is cause for interventionism there for humanitarian reasons, there is cause for interventionism in the apartheid state of Israel *and* the Wahhabi (extremist Islam) nation of Saudi Arabia, for both these countries are unforgivably brutal to their inhabitants…..”
Now you are talking pure bullshit – and deflecting. If Saudi Arabia and Israel are unforgivably brutal, what do you think of Assad? Saudi Arabia is a horrible dictatorship, but does not even come close to the level of brutality visited on the Syrian people by Assad. Indeed, let’s also not forget the Green Revolution in Iran, OK? That was also a brutal crack-down on normal everyday people seeking political rights – and far worse than in Saudi Arabia as well. Israel is NOT an apartheid state (more political bullshit) and it is ridiculous to suggest that it is – and the Palestinians certainly share in the blame for their current conditions although I agree the Israelis are preventing the Palestinians their right to self-determination. Regardless, you are deflecting from the situation in Syria.
“……Fourthly, Hillary Clinton’s words have already alarmed Russia, with Gorbachev saying the US/Russia paradigm is at a ‘dangerous point’ because of escalating tensions, and Clinton has obviously exacerbated that with her bellicosity and no-fly zone threats….”
If nothing else, it may have added a sense of urgency to Putin who will level eastern Aleppo before Hillary is sworn in. Indeed, US intelligence said with a high degree of confidence that Russia is behind the hacking of the DNC which does suggest a preference for Trump. Oh, and Russia is sending their fleet along with their only aircraft carrier to Syria. Putin also deployed anti-aircraft missile systems to Syria to deter US bombing Assad the murderer. If tensions are escalating, these moves by Putin are certainly not helping.
Almost always the right policy where Craig is concerned. He doesn’t give two tinker’s dam’s about Assad or Russia’s human rights records. He’s a neoconservative, authoritarian, pro-torture, Republican Zionist and jingoist, who simply supports whatever the righttwing of the U.S. wants to do. If neocons didn’t want to invade Syria, do the No Fly Zone etc., we’d be hearing nary a word about the horrors of Assad or Russia from Craig.
If the U.S. or Israel do X, X is defensible, or at the very worst, nowhere near as awful as what their enemies do and should not be discussed. Let him wallow in his own immoral swill without giving him any encouragement to post more of his vile shit.
He seems entirely incapable of critical thinking, but very capable of waffling neoconservatively.
The threads get hijacked by this sort of thing, and I don’t want to contribute to that. Sometimes it’s best to just let the readers make up their own minds, and not get into repetition just to focus the discussion. I feel major confirmation of my points every time Nate or craigsummers feel it necessary to lecture me, however, but it does get tedious battling willful misunderstanding.
Fairly sure this is the guy you advised me to ignore when I first started commenting. Oops.
I’d bet money that “this is the guy.” Never argue with Craig, except on days when you think beating your head against a wall might be entertaining.
“I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.”
~ George Bernard Shaw
No doubt. Hey, Doug – this brief excerpt is interesting to read in light of the collusions-in-high-places we’ve been discussing lately:
Jill Stein on Malcolm X
Oh, good find, Jill! And it seriously takes ovaries for an American presidential candidate to quote Malcolm in the context of this election.
Thanks, Maisie! I know some of our friends here think we’re going off the deep end with the collusion/conspiracy allegations, but I think they are thinking of the terms too narrowly.
The Carlin snippet sums it succinctly and wraps it with a bow: the ruling elites don’t need meetings, or white papers or written plans, to organize the collusion. It’s merely a matter of recognizing the other elements of society with interests aligned with one’s own.
From there, it’s just a matter of doin’ what comes natur’lly:
I want to re-emphasize this point to you Maisie (from my last post).
“……and notice how the US has just recently complained about the Russians bombing their “rebels” – who the Russians believe are, well, terrorists…..”
Again Maisie, I know you are familiar with Amnesty International. The Russians are bombing and targeting everything in eastern Aleppo including hospitals, field clinics, aid convoys and civilians. So if you believe the Russians, everyone living in eastern Aleppo including medical workers, doctors, pregnant women and children are terrorists also. Russia is using the same tactics they used in Grozny – level everything. That is why they are called war crimes, OK? In other words, quit being an apologists for Russian atrocities. I get enough of that from all of the other extreme anti-Americanism around here.
That’ll do, pig.
Maisie
“…….The threads get hijacked by this sort of thing, and I don’t want to contribute to that……”
You mean an opposing opinion?
“……..I feel major confirmation of my points every time Nate or craigsummers feel it necessary to lecture me…..”
I really don’t spend any time lecturing to people at the Intercept. I absolutely don’t expect anyone to agree with me – or change anyone’s opinion. I am here strictly to crapflood and disrupt the far left discussions. Just keep agreeing with Mona – and you will stay out of trouble:
-Mona-
Oct. 4 2016, 9:13 p.m.
ATTENTION READERS: I have reported Craig Summers. Please scroll past him — I and others usually ignore him for being an authoritarian, pro-torture, Republican Trump-voter who posts massive walls of drivel. Skip past him (often; unfortunately he’s crapflooding) to see the actual discussion. Especially just below is my link to Max Blumenthal’s Part II: How the White Helmets Became International Heroes While Pushing U.S. Military Intervention and Regime Change in Syria. Excerpts given.
1. Mr. Summers does not want readers to consider Blumenthal’s article, so he’s crapflooding the comments with constant new posts to stay at the top of the thread. (This is behavior which has often resulted in banning; crapflooding as that is defined and assessed here, not as determined by Mr. Summers.) Please scroll past all of his pollution. In the meantime, I am reporting him.
2. Mr. Summers is well aware that I wish to almost entirely ignore him; he’s been told so innumerable times. Especially in this thread, he persists in posting to and about me, demanding that I answer certain questions. This is an abuse of the board. I am entitled to ignore someone without his spamming the board and his constantly demanding that I answer his questions.
For these reasons I have reported him.
Remember, it’s easier for us to not accidentally view some of your words if you keep your posts long. Think car crash vs long lines of traffic. Nobody looks at a line of cars but a pile of mangled metaliferous material always gets a glance.
To put it another way, no one responds with TS;DR …
So it’s all you, pal.
“I am here strictly to crapflood and disrupt the far left discussions.”
Crapflood. Thanks for admitting to the quality of your posts.
Maz,
in 2011-12, I was working with Occupy in Dallas. We took a neighborhood in Syria as our “Sister”. We held demonstrations here in solidarity with them. We shared photos and videos. So, the matter has been dear to me.
I don’t know how the original revolution can have a voice in the convoluted circumstance of today. I know of the brutality of the elder Assad, Hafiz. I have friends from Homs. Today, the people are caught between world actors. I don’t believe the US or NATO have ever involved themselves in something they didn’t corrupt. So, I personally hold no hope in Western intervention. And I don’t trust Ali Soufan and his push for the intervention. He just reminds me of Chalabi and the INC before the Iraq War of ’03.
It seems an inescapable trap. Honestly, the entire nation-state system is a trap that perpetuates division, inequity, war, and power struggles in geopolitics. And of course, with Israel and Saudi thrown in the mix, corruption and power-mongering are dominant aspects.
If students or people of conscience writing letters or creating art in opposition to Assad constitutes a revolution, then I’ll eat my hat. From day one when the US instigated ‘colour revolution’ in Syria began, Leftwingers in the West jumped up and down in unison like some perfectly timed US cheer squad. The pattern was a familiar one, but the left insisted that this was the beginning of a genuine revolution. Of course it begs the question,”just what planet are these people on?”
So far, the ‘Syrian Revolution’ narrative has tailed after every bit of unsubstantiated US propaganda that has been thrown at Syria. Here in New Zealand, things are so bad that there is a suggestion that the very tiny Syria Solidarity Campaign, march on the Russian Consulate in Auckland in protest about war crimes cooked up by the US.
I find Mr Hussains article, unconvincing. However, I do accept that the bourgeois regime in Damascus is answerable to questions concerning its willingness to carry out US ‘rendtions’ and human rights abuses on behalf of the West.
There have to be some people somewhere in Syria trying to do the right thing. A country can’t be all despicable and evil, not without exception. But before you commit to dropping bombs and sending troops, you have to have some kind of hope that it will serve a positive purpose. Otherwise, all you’re doing is making the violence of the country your own. As tempting as it might be to fly helicopter safaris over ISISland just so well-heeled clients can have some sport, that would be no noble cause worth committing public monies to.
And if there’s one thing we should have learned from all the conflicts of the Middle East, it’s that hope and Islam are never native to the same country. So long as the ethos of a people is presided over by a pirate, a kidnapper, a murderer who had people killed for writing critical poems, all efforts to go bomb the bad guys are going to leave nothing behind but more bad guys who have a real reason to hate us.
Oh, by all means, help the refugees, by assisting neighboring countries. Try to do something good, as measured by the lack of bombs and bullets. Help people and maybe one day their culture will change. But to keep bombing them… someday _our_ culture will change. And that day was sometime in 2003, if not sooner.
That’s as false as at is racist, ignorant and disgusting. On Twitter, Maz Hussain took a Jaime comment and cited it as evidence of leftist “racism.” I totally disagreed; Jaime’s comments come off as crank-ish.
Yours, however, fits the bill.
It’s weird how reading the first paragraph I’m going, wow, yeah, this is all so true
and then Wnt kicks off 2nd paragraph with meaningless dopey “hope and Islam are never native to the same country” and then it’s like, oh yeah right, this guy is an idiot as we already knew.
Anyway, not concluding Wnt is a total idiot until the 2nd paragraph constitutes some kind of advance. Keep up the good work.
If treaties, laws, and words have meaning, then hope is not a justification for war.
There is a definitive but very limited moral and legal basis for making war, codified in the UN Charter, the Nuremberg Principles, and even US law.
Well, look up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_war – you’ll see that “just war theory” involves a reasonable possibility, i.e. a hope, of success. Now to be sure, there are differing points of view on that — Churchill famously and beautifully said that “You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.” However, I think this is an argument that applies to people in the most desperate situations, but not to would-be superpowers playing games with someone else’s country.
As for my “bigotry” — since Charlie Hebdo I have become more strident on this point, but bigotry I do not believe it is. Religion is a belief. It is not a race. And like all beliefs, religious beliefs can be right, wrong, or impossible to say. I don’t think that it is bigotry if a university fails to give equal representation to Young Earth Creationists who refuse to explain evolutionary theory, for example. Now to be sure, beliefs deserve constitutional protection, and it *would* be bigotry for the state to prohibit such beliefs, or deny benefits to people who hold them that are generally available (rather than, say, professorships at state universities that are reserved for only the top experts in a field).
Donald Trump has tapped into a powerful current of belief on this because the liberal make-believe that Islam is totally blameless and something no rational person can speak against is repugnant to a lot of people. We have the right to speak against it; but we must also respect the rights of those who speak for it. Freedom of speech means freedom to be wrong, because nobody censors things they agree with! So, like Caesar in Gaul, we have to hold a double line here – a line against genuine bigotry, genuine discrimination and attacks on citizens who believe in Islam, and a line against politically correct censorship that represses the natural repugnance that people have toward Islam and the criminal who founded it.
This is bullshit journalism. You put these people forward like they ever had some sort of a chance of achieving anything – they never did. The Cold War has been on the fire with full heat under it and it has boiled over in Syria. It’s like suggesting the White Rose had some sort of a chance because they were pure-of-heart and on the side of truth. It’s BULLSHIT. It’s Good versus Evil. There is no such thing. Assad is a horrible bastard, but part of the reason he is a horrible bastard is because he knows there are forces that want to destroy him as definitely as he destroys his enemies, and no one is ever altruistic given that choice. And let him without sin caste the first stone – many of these supposed “freedom” groups are aligned with some political force – Kurdish Nationalism, Pan-Turkish Imperialism, anti-Shiite movements, political rivals that would be little better once in power, Wahhabism, pro-Iranian groups, pro-Iraq groups, American-backed mercenaries, pro-Russian groups, pro-American groups. The media is not reporting on it in part because they are being told not to, and partly because it is a Gordian Knot of insanity and Machiavellian double-dealings.
But out of it all stands Purity, White Dove in Hand, illuminated by The Intercept’s Light of Truth, until otherwise proven wrong and acknowledge in a small editorial.
Here’s a quick and simple test for spotting The Blameless Innocents – they are the ones who never had any guns, greedy intentions or political agendas ever, running away from all those that do. And that is not us in the West, or Assad, or Russia, or the Kurds, or the Turks, or…
Everyone’s story has been forgotten along with how to tell at the very least some small truths in this hateful reheating of the Cold War. It has been misinformation, propaganda, damn lies and pure ignorance from all – governments, media, and the people involved. “Freedom Fighters” turn out to be Pan-Ottoman Turks. ISIS turn out to be armed and egged on by the US following a Saudi-inspired fundamentalist agenda and avoiding the usual targets for Islamic angst. A troubled and under-fire Assad government turn out to be the main targets as the West demands his removal in one breath as they claim to be Syria’s saviours in the next. Russia and America say they are holding hands together to combat ISIS, and drop bombs on rival targets and edge ever closer to WW3. And then poor Iran somehow get dragged in from Stage Left – turns out they are the main course and Syria is just the starter. What started out as ordinary folk keeping the wolves from their doors turn out to be a patchwork of political groups all-of-a-sudden armed and intent on some political agenda – Sunni-this, Shia-that, some Kurdish whatnot, some Pan-Turkish whatever. Assad is accused of using chemical weapons, turns out to be a lie. Turkey are accused of buying ISIS oil, turns out to be true. Then Turkey “invade” a country they are supposed to be helping. France and Britain give rousing speeches in their respective parliaments about how they must go on crusade in their Typhoon fighter-jets to fight the deadliest foe since Saladin, grab their mandate to bomb and instantly the media falls silent. We are told to care from our comfy armchairs, then when a million poor and terrified and battered refugees swarm from a living hell for our aid, we are told they are the next greatest threat since Abdul Rahman and his invading horde and we slam the door in their faces and crank up the right-wing rhetoric to 11. Then it turns out it was our fault anyway.
What cunts we are to pretend we even care whether they live in terror and poverty or die a pointless death in some wrecked shithole so that a bunch of greedy c-c-c-corporations can seize control of oil’s pricing mechanism.
Shame on us all, but especially the press, the politicians, the spooky secret services, the military, the arms dealers and manufacturers and the tax-paying lazy complicit electorates of the supposedly democratic, multi-cultural and civilised West.
I hope you are yet young and haven’t realized that attacking everyone and everything isn’t excused because you are incoherently angry.
Sounds like they’ve done quite their work on you (let’s hear you preach about that), not doing a bit more than complaining about it whilst sarcastically referencing those who do try
@photosymbiosis
And? The reality is the U.S. slaveocracy was more democratic than Stalin’s USSR. Nothing relevant follows from that.
You suffer either from poor reading comprehension, poor analytical reasoning skills, or both. Nothing I wrote can be extrapolated to support any of that.
No, I meant what I actually wrote, to wit: ” I’m not going to blame individuals wanting an end to Baathist atrocities, who fight for civil liberties, who took whatever help they could.”
Is Maz Hussain hoping sympathy for the civil libertarians of Syria will generate support for Western military intervention? Probably. And I’d have to oppose him on that. But not because it would be wrong to support these admirable people. Rather because: 1. It’s very unlikely this cohort would emerge on top to replace Assad, 2. the evidence is our interventions virtually always make matters far worse, and 3. any military intervention necessarily entails a hot war with Russia.
For those reasons I adamantly oppose military intervention in Syria. But I am equally clear that there exist some very fine and noble human beings who oppose Assad as well as the Islamist rebels.
When do fine and noble human beings ever matter? They make nice stories for journalists and premature business for undertakers.
I can’t even think of 3 real F&NPs that have in any way significantly changed the world for the better (though I’ll pencil in the inventors of air con and toothpaste just for the removal of misery that they bring me, but they may well have been arseholes at a personal level). People will always say Gandhi, but India is still a poverty-stricken, nuclear-armed, class-ridden, bigoted hell-hole for most of its people. He created a fatuous soundbite and for all his troubles got shot by one of his own. Any characters from the major religions are very likely fictional and most definitely lost in mythology.
The cold reality is we are a race of arseholes cursed with a vanity to believe we may rise above our selfish baseness. Hillary’s gonna push that button, though, just to cure her tormented misery, but at least her sycophants and aides won’t have to dig her out of that faux-pas.
The House of Saud has paid good money to arm the rebels, so what are they doing sipping tea in Turkey? There are literally hundreds of armed factions fighting in Syria, so I can’t feel too much sympathy for the ‘Facebook activists’ who feel they are being ‘effectively airbrushed from history’.
What absurd propaganda. Although I admire any opposition group that fights for human rights — whatever opposition existed is irrelevant now considering the US and its allies are engaged in a proxy invasion using jihadist armies.
Through the rat-line in Libya, the United States armed both ISIS and Al Nusra, who hate women and gays, engage in ethnic cleansing, and are terrorists. What the propagandist Hussain is doing is creating a fictional reality where this did not happen or it is not important.
In Hussain’s attempt to dupe the readers of the Intercept, he completely ignores the destruction of Syria by the US proxy terror armies. Hussain also ignores international law. Hussain is very similar to the neocons, because he believes the US and its allies have a divine right to invade and destroy any country, as long as they can prove the leader is a ‘bad guy’.
This article is so absurd, I can only describe it with analogy. Let us suppose a very bad president came to power in the US and an occupy movement arose to protest. In Hussain’s world, where war crimes are normalized, it would be perfectly fine for nations like Russia and China to send in hundreds of thousands of terrorist, woman-hating, gay-hating, ethnic cleansing fighters.
Now imagine if the United States was invaded by a huge number of terrorist armies in the same way Syria has been. We have Russia and China saying it is legal because they have determined we have a ‘bad’ president. Yet we also have a champion for their ridiculous argument to cover war crimes — Murtaza Hussain. He would author propaganda just like this article, glorifying and lamenting the early Occupy protests and completely ignoring or glossing over the material war crime of sending in thousands of Jihadists who seek regime change, oppression of women and gays, and ethnic cleansing.
It appears the Intercept has a ‘little Goebbels’ writing for them, ready to excuse any war crime and dupe the weak-minded. Thank you for normalizing war crimes.
Maybe Hussain’s next article will be a defense of Hitler’s invasion of Poland. No more or less a war crime than what is happening now in Syria.
I agree with this response. The salient fact is that, no matter the origin, the jihadi element is now in control the yankee imperium is trying to take down civilization in Syria and elsewhere in the Middle East and threatens to take on nuclear armed Russia on behalf of this barbarian element. This Murtaza Hussain article is merely part of the propaganda preparation for armageddon. It is not only criminal but stupid.
Murtaza Hussain should have asked the interviewees point blank how they expect to achieve their ideal tolerant republic after the head-chopping islamists gain control.
The interviewees are too busy trying to stay alive and survive Assad’s barrel bombs and torture squads, to worry about what comes after this dictator is gone. That’s what any of us would do I. That same situation.
You are an ignorant. Despite compulsory milittary services, Assad doesn’t have enough men to fight for him. Foreign Iran army and Iran’s tens of foreign jihadist groups fight for Assad on the ground. These are the forces attacking east Aleppo under Russian aircover which continually slaugter civilians by bombing hospitals(including MSF hospitals) homes.
Jamie
“……..Now imagine if the United States was invaded by a huge number of terrorist armies in the same way Syria has been…..”
The largest terror army that has invaded Syria (so far) is owned by the Assad regime. No other terrorist organization has committed more war crimes – or even come close. Assad initiated the conflict:
“……When army tanks recently rolled into the city of Dera’a in southern Syria and began shelling residential areas, the human rights crisis in the country reached a new low. More than 400 people have died across Syria since protestors calling for political reform took to the streets in mid-March. Hundreds of people have been arbitrarily arrested and detained incommunicado, placing them at serious risk of torture [or execution] and other ill-treatment. Torture of detainees has long been common and endemic in Syria……..Consequently, Amnesty International has called on the UN Security Council to refer Syria to the Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court, to impose an arms embargo and to freeze the assets abroad of the Syrian President and his senior associates…….”
The Amnesty International Summary Report from 2013 indicates that after 2-1/2 years of war, Assad was responsible for the “vast” majority of the war crimes:
“……..The internal armed conflict between government forces and the opposition, composed of the Free Syrian Army (FSA) and other armed opposition groups, was marked by gross human rights abuses, war crimes and crimes against humanity. Government forces, which were responsible for the vast majority of violations, carried out indiscriminate attacks on residential areas using aircraft, artillery shells, mortars, incendiary weapons and cluster bombs. Together with their support militias, they arrested thousands of people, including children, subjecting many to enforced disappearance. Torture and other ill-treatment of detainees were commonplace; at least 550 were reported to have died in custody, many after torture. Others were extrajudicially executed. Security forces’ snipers continued to shoot peaceful anti-government demonstrators and people attending public funerals. Health workers treating the wounded were targeted………”
As I posted earlier, as many as 25,000-50,000 people died in detention in Assad prisons. You write in response to this article:
“……What absurd propaganda……In Hussain’s attempt to dupe the readers of the Intercept……..Hussain also ignores international law. Hussain is very similar to the neocons………It appears the Intercept has a ‘little Goebbels’ writing for them……He would author propaganda just like this article……..”
Jamie, where were you the night that Anna Politkovskaya was murdered?
Another chemical attack by Assad (Jerusalem Post, today):
“…….The White House on Saturday condemned the use of chemical weapons by the Syrian government after an international inquiry found its forces responsible for a third toxic gas attack in Syria’s civil war…….The fourth report from the 13-month-long inquiry by the United Nations and the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW), the global chemical weapons watchdog, blamed Syrian government forces for a toxic gas attack in Qmenas in Idlib governorate on March 16, 2015………In August, the third report by the inquiry blamed the government of Syrian President Bashar Assad for two chlorine attacks – in Talmenes on April 21, 2014 and Sarmin on March 16, 2015 – and said Islamic State fighters had used sulfur mustard gas……..”
Who listens to this White House anymore? Three more instances of Assad crossing Obama’s “red line” without any consequences – which is why Obama made such a big mistake when he signed an agreement to remove Assad’s stockpile. Why would Putin take the US military seriously under the direction of Barack Obama?
What a load of State Department propaganda BS, regurgitated on demand by NATO member state media outlets, but it’s all nonsense. Take a look at this article – but don’t bother reading the article, just read the comments, and you’ll see how few people are buying into this BS:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/23/syria-heavy-clashesmark-end-to-aleppo-ceasefire
For example:
“……..What a load of State Department propaganda BS, regurgitated on demand by NATO member state media outlets, but it’s all nonsense….”
It’s all a load of BS – you know the annexation of Crimea, the downing of Malasian flight MH 17, the Russian military in Ukraine and support for the “rebels”. All BS. Certainly the UN findings were BS concerning the use of chemical weapons by Assad. Indeed, the repeated bombing of Hospitals in Aleppo by Russia and Syria was all BS as were the charges of war crimes by UN human rights chief, Zeid Ra’ad al Hussein (Posted below).
It’s all a big conspiracy against the freedom loving regimes in Russia and Syria.
There are no saints in this fight. Russia and Syria may not be the freedom-loving regimes you’d admire, but they’re doing what they can to hold back radical Islam.
Otherwise, what would you do?
“…….There are no saints in this fight. Russia and Syria may not be the freedom-loving regimes you’d admire, but they’re doing what they can to hold back radical Islam……”
Well of course they have painted this as the war on terror. First of all, the Assad regime started the conflict assaulting people demonstrating for political rights. He is the terrorist. Second of all, Russia is looking out for their own interests including a Naval facility in Syria. Indeed, Putin is standing up to Uncle Sam which is worth some political capital in the Middle East. Third, Russia is not fighting radical Islam in Ukraine. He is mourning the downsizing of his sphere of influence which has dwindled significantly since the collapse of the USSR.
Loved it. Nuanced & shaded exactly like the conflict, grey! Great Job !
How can anyone believe what Murtaza Hussain writes on Syria when he regurgitates White Hat propaganda, which looks entirely staged in many cases:
http://www.moonofalabama.org/2016/10/assad-says-the-boy-in-the-ambulance-is-fake-we-show-why.html
Another major issue right now is the effort to drive ISIS out of Mosul – which is much like the effort to drive Al-Nusra out of east Aleppo, although covered in an entirely different fashion in NATO-member-state media outlets. For fair coverage, one must look abroad:
That’s what unbiased independent journalism and commentary looks like; many Intercept writers should take notes.
Photosymbiosis
Pushing Russian propaganda again, I see.
“……Sieges of cities, once a major part of warfare, grew rare in the course of the 20th century, mainly because of the rise of air power. You didn’t need to besiege cities any more, because you could just smash them to smithereens from the air: Guernica, Dresden, Hiroshima. But that’s not so easy in the era of instant global media coverage……”
Can I add Grozny to the list, photo? I read a couple of articles from “Moon of Alabama” and you seem to be the one promoting propaganda – and covering Russian and Syrian war crimes in the process. Criticize the attack on Mosul all you want, but none of that absolves Russian of repeatedly targeting hospitals, civilians and aid convoys in Aleppo. Certainly, there are jihadists fighting in Aleppo, but there are also fighters with legitimate grievances against the brutal Syrian government. As Putin will demonstrate in the coming weeks, he is willing to level Aleppo for Assad.
The article by Murtaza simply covers individuals fighting for freedom. All Syrians are not jihadists, right? The article never even mentions the war crimes committed by Russia. In fact, there is no mention of Russia at all (why, I’m not sure). However, the article does mention correctly how the conflict was initiated by the Assad regime which cracked down brutally on political rights activists associated with the Arab Spring.
The UN human rights chief, Zeid Ra’ad al Hussein, focused on the war crimes committed from the indiscriminate bombing and targeting of civilians and hospitals by the Russia and the Assad militaries in Eastern Aleppo (al-Jazeera 10-21-2016):
“…….The siege and bombing of eastern Aleppo in Syria constitute “crimes of historic proportions” that have caused heavy civilian casualties amounting to “war crimes”, according to the top United Nations human rights official…….al Hussein’s comments on Friday came during a special session of the UN human rights council called by Britain to set up a special inquiry into violations, especially in Aleppo’s rebel-held east where an estimated 275,000 civilians are besieged by a Syrian government offensive backed by Russia…….Zeid said Aleppo is a “slaughterhouse” and called for major powers to put aside their differences and refer the situation in Syria to the prosecutor of the International Criminal Court (ICC)……..”
This PR line is utter garbage and the vast majority of informed readers know this to be true. Russia and China are not threats to global peace and stability, the US State Department and Hillary Clinton sit at the top of that list, as they pursue their ludicrous effort to preserve American Empire hegemony in its dying days – if you want a historical analogy, look at the Suez Crisis in 1954 and the final last gasp of the British and French Empires (also seen in France’s failed wars in Algeria and Vietnam).
Yes, Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Israel are American client states in this effort – Israel’s defense minister even called for ISIS to take over Syria!
http://www.timesofisrael.com/yaalon-i-would-prefer-islamic-state-to-iran-in-syria/
Entirely unreported in NATO member state media, but isn’t that curious? Global terror group ISIS supported by Israeli defense minister, Israel gets $38 billion in military aid from the United States, which also sells record-breaking amounts of arms to Saudi Arabia, who transfers weapons like Raytheon TOW-II missiles to ISIS forces in Iraq and Syria. . . All part of some idiot regime change game involving financing, training and arming radical Islamic Wahhabi-Salafist-takfiri groups in Iraq and Syria to “counter Iran” and overthrow Assad, all in the name of control of oil, gas and pipeline routes.
Naw, must be a conspiracy theory, right craigsummers?
Photosymbiosis
Murtaza’s article is simply about peaceful protesters – a part of the Arab Spring – demonstrating for political rights and the brutal crack down by Assad which initiated the war. These people who support democratic change still exist as a part of the opposition to Assad (“forgotten revolutionaries”). Many are represented by the refugees now located in other countries. Certainly some joined the opposition to Assad including ISIS and al-Qaeda. However, Assad initiated the conflict which is why there are 300,000-400,000 dead people. Of course, Putin and Assad propagate the propaganda that all opposition to his brutal rule are terrorists and jihadists: no one else in Aleppo but terrorists.
You linked to a pro Russian propaganda site while accusing Murtaza of “White Hat propaganda”. This is a classic reaction from radical leftists and Russian-bots. Is there anything that Mr. Hussain said in this article which was untrue and would offend the freedom-loving Putin?
I am sure a few weak-kneed liberals believe this dribble. Their cognitive dissonance is so astounding: Total political correctness in the United States, yet an admiration for a president who has armed and trained Nazi battalions in the Ukraine and supports Jihadist invasions, by armies that hate gays, women, and engage in ethnic cleansing.
The worm Hussain is only churning out these lies because the jihadist armies are getting their butt kicked in Aleppo. Everything is moving towards direct US engagement to save woman-hating, gay-hating, jihadists so they can continue ethnic cleansing. I wouldn’t be surprised if the apologist Hussain works for the ‘company’ or one of its affiliates.
Well, the Russians have one big point they didn’t mention: the U.S. hasn’t signed Protocol I, a 1977 amendment to the Geneva Conventions that prohibits carpet bombing of cities.
That said, I honestly don’t know enough about the issue. As awful as carpet bombing is, could it have worked, with suitable warnings, to sever the main communication routes of the Islamic State and stop its spread in the early stages? I have no idea, and I’ve become very pessimistic about interventions, but I don’t know for sure if this particular boundary is the relevant one.
“How can anyone believe what Murtaza Hussain writes on Syria when he regurgitates White Hat propaganda, which looks entirely staged in many cases:”
The picture TI used on the White hat piece was staged, IMO. The guy was not holding a young child the way one would while running from danger. He was presenting the child for the camera. The kid was cradled by one arm while the other supported his legs. Ready on the set.
As exemplified by the “revolutionary” in this article, those who welcomed the militant foreign interlopers are directly culpable for the war.
They chose to side with US, Turkish and Saudi backed militant foreigners against their own country.
These militants killed Syrian police and Syrian military members in order to trigger a response that would then be used by propagandists in the western media in an attempt to justify their illegal regime change war by proxy.
Those who perpetuate the false narrative that the war is justified on humanitarian reasons despite the massive humanitarian disaster their bogus justifications have created are part of the problem.
They pretend and/or ignore that the very forces colluding against Assad weren’t partnering with Assad… using his prisons to conduct interrogations in the US rendition program… and are now partnering with those who launched terrorist attacks in America, Europe, and the rest of the world. Their collaboration with al Qaida is a massive violation of both law and our supposed values.
They ignore that the compromised morality of those scheming to effect regime change must be considered in the context of their new arguments around morality.
The perpetrators and blind supporters of this immorality, past and present, have no legitimate basis to now be considered voices of wisdom and morality. Their claims must be doubted as they are just further acts to advance their immoral agenda.
They don’t care one bit about the deaths and injuries of the innocent Syrians caught up in this conflict.
They don’t care about the millions of refugees their immoral policies have created.
They don’t care about the destruction.
They don’t care about the wasted billions.
They don’t care about the horrible and predictable consequences their illegal war will most certainly still cause.
They are immoral liars.
What do they care about? They care a lot about the fact that Assad rejected a Saudi/Qatari pipeline through Syria in 2009 in favor of a Iran-Gazprom pipeline through Syria in 2010.
In many ways the situation is fairly like that with Iraq in c.2001; the Cheney Energy Task Force was poring over maps of Iraqi oilfields and list of foreign oil suitors and realizing that, as international pressure rose to lift sanctions on Iraq, U.S. and British oil corporations were going to be locked out of Iraqi oilfields, while France, Rusesia, Italy and China were not. Hence, war and invasion and occupation.
Similarly, global pressure to lift sanctions on Iran were very high in 2010 onwards, and the export of Iranian gas and oil to global markets could no longer be blocked by US-Israeli-Saudi efforts. Syria’s Assad had been a “partner” in the CIA rendition programs as you note, but since he preferred the Iranian pipeline deal to the Qatar pipeline deal (Iran and Qatar sit on opposites sides of the same massive gas field that sits under the Persian Gulf), he had to go.
This was covered by Nafeez Ahmed in the Guardian in August 30, 2013:
Soon after, Nafeez Ahmed – who was also covering the Israeli effort to control Gaza gas fields, etc., was fired from the Guardian:
http://www.jonathan-cook.net/blog/2014-12-04/why-the-guardian-axed-nafeez-ahmeds-blog/
Notice the absolute refusal of the Intercept to mention oil/gas/pipelines in any context? Not in Syria, not in the United States Dakota Access pipeline protests, even with the severe persecution of journalists and activists by militarized police forces?
Oh, my, that’s a lot to unpack, but certainly I can’t co-sign much of it.
First, seeking to undermine one’s “own country” is often entirely proper. The United States exists in part because of assistance received from the French. Really, examples in history of oppressed peoples being assisted by outsiders are legion.
Second, I’m not going to blame individuals wanting an end to Baathist atrocities, who fight for civil liberties, who took whatever help they could. Blame for the absolute imperative of opposing the evils of Baathism lies with the Baathists.
I do, of course, oppose U.S. military intervention that necessarily would mean engaging Russia, but that’s not because opposing Assad is a bad or wrong thing per se. It’s because it could result in WWIII, or even “just” a wider and horrible war. And because U.S. intervention in foreign cultures and countries virtually has always made the situation worse.
Yes, it is necessary to understand the hows and whys of the White Helmet’s founding, and the Western forces who seek to use them for their own ends. But from that it does not follow that opposing Assad, and seeking help in doing so, is bad. Indeed, the article above strongly appears to be documenting some very noble people and efforts.
Mona, would you be willing to support an armed uprising by black, brown and poor Americans, aided by another nation-state?
If all democratic means is as foreclosed as is the case in Baathist Syria, I couldn’t oppose it.
Back during Cold War 1.0, Stalinists propagandized against the U.S. for lynchings, Jim Crow & etc. Now, of course, that was largely a whataboutery game with them, often invoked in defense of the Gulags. But for Americans, we should have been paying attention to those horrors rather than becoming obsessed with Soviet Gulags.
Democratic means are running out in the US, for anti-racism campaigners, environmentalists and many others. Observe the response when you try direct action or even simple journalism after the government and courts wont protect your rights but will protect rich capitalists property.
“Indeed, the article above strongly appears to be documenting some very noble people and efforts.”
The reality is that Assad under Syria was a far more democratic country than Saudi Arabia under the House of Saud. By your argument, we should also be financing revolutionaries in Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and Bahrain who seek to remove the monarchists from power and replace them with parliamentary democracies.
Parliamentary democracies and elections in Syria and Iran seem far closer to the American ideal than either Saudi Arabia and Qatar, and no large proportion of their population (i.e. Israel’s refusal to allow Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza to participate in Israeli national elections) is systematically excluded from the political process. One can argue, however, that the selection of candidates to be voted on in Iran and Syria is not a free and open process, that this is where the gatekeeping takes place – but come on, the same is true for the United States and the tight control of the two-party system and the systematic exclusion of third-party candidates from media coverage and debates, isn’t it?
This really is one-sided drivel in alliance with U.S. State Department & White House objectives; anyone can see that.
“………One can argue, however, that the selection of candidates to be voted on in Iran and Syria is not a free and open process, that this is where the gatekeeping takes place – but come on, the same is true for the United States and the tight control of the two-party system and the systematic exclusion of third-party candidates from media coverage and debates, isn’t it?…..”
You are just getting absurdly ridiculous, photo. Pictures collected by defectors from the Assad regime released them to Human Rights Watch (this might have influenced the way I would have voted in the free and fair elections in Syria in 2014) :
“……..The largest category of photographs, 28,707 images, are photographs of people Human Rights Watch understands to have died in government custody (with estimates as high as 60,000)…….. Moreover, the photographs are not a random sampling, but represent the photographs Caesar had access to and copied when he felt he could do so with relative safety. Therefore, the number of bodies from detention facilities that appear in the Caesar photographs represent only a part of those who died in detention in Damascus, or even in these particular facilities…… They found evidence of violent blunt force trauma, suffocation, starvation, and in one case due to a gunshot wound to the head. In some of the photographs Human Rights Watch and Physicians for Human Rights reviewed, detainees’ bodies showed large open head wounds, gunshot wounds, or dried blood coming from bodily cavities. Many of the photographs show emaciated bodies as well as marks of torture…….”
I love the way she thinks she’s Mt.Olympus.
I couldn’t co sign it.Sheesh.
Another legend in her own mind,and just another illiberal interventionist with righteous indignation at others who don’t subscribe to her BS of touchy feely death.
Trump will end this nonsense in Syria by telling all the GSs and Saudis,cease and desist,and the Israelis will also listen like he’s ef hutton.
Somewhere i saw the ol divide and conquer;Adelson Newspaper backs Trump.
I guess Adelsons tea leaves are better than his co religionist traitors,that’s all.Buttering his bread on both sides.
The US and it’s allies also do their damnedest to keep these revolutionaries hidden from view because it doesn’t fit their narrative.
Not really..
For the longest part all we would hear about in the “West” was about those “moderate rebels”, in fact that’s how this whole conflict was framed in the very beginning: Extremist elements got downplayed as being few in between, in favor of training and supplying the “revolution” by the US and it’s allies.
No mention of USAID denying international drought relief to the Syrian people for the historic drought between 2006 and 2011, because the US state department figured it would be good to rile up the common Syrian people for “regime change”, as can be read in the leaked Wikileaks cable, it was all calculated.
When the “revolution” was slowly perceived as having been taken over by Islamic extremists they then spun the tale of “training and equipping rebels to fight ISIS”, millions of US $ spent and all they could show for it was not even a dozen “anti-ISIS fighters” recruited from the Syrian revolution.
As sad as it might be for the Syrian people, but at this point I don’t see a way out of this situation that does not involve the Syrian government staying in power or some Islamist hardcore faction taking over power. After years of intense warfare I find it hard to imagine that anything “moderate” is left over there.
Mostly all media ignores the U.S. role in instigating the conflict…
In 2012 the Washington Post and other media reported on a leaked diplomatic cable that revealed that since 2006 the U.S. has been working to destabilize Syria, wanting regime change:
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-syria-wikileaks-idUSTRE73H0E720110418
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/us-secretly-backed-syrian-opposition-groups-cables-released-by-wikileaks-show/2011/04/14/AF1p9hwD_story.html
more links on http://www.syria-infoandaction.com
At the beginning of the Syrian uprising, the U.S./ CIA working with Saudi Arabia probably infiltrated extremists into local dissident groups to foment violence, which was then encouraged by U.S. Ambassador to Syria, Robert Ford, who, like all Washington neocon types, expected the U.S. to do to Syria, what it had done to Libya.
Russia and China vetoed the necessary UN Security Council resolution so there was no basis under international law for intervention.
The U.S. has disregarded international law and armed those rebelling against the internationally recognized government of Syria.
To make such regime change respectable, Assad has to be demonized, despite his having the support of a majority of Syrians. To appease Saudi Arabia, Gulf monarchies and Israel and to weaken Russia, the U.S. intends to replace Assad with a submissive Sunni puppet.
Those who care should tell Obama to stop calling for regime change, and to work with Assad to calm the violence, and to support UN sponsored elections.
Reconciliation with all factions will be very difficult.
Humans need to refine their conflict resolving capabilities with the effort with which they have refined their military capabilities.
This is a deeply moving piece. My heart goes out to Syrians risking so much to end fear and constant brutality. To have their movement overwhelmed by violent, nihilistic extremists is a tragedy that could extinguish hope and resolve in all but the strongest.
This seemed especially poignant and critical to me:
Yes, that absolutely includes “secular” political ideologies. Whether it is Baathists, or to a somewhat lesser degree, the aggressive secularism of France, it’s so clear that they share a failure with the religious and other ideologies they oppose, to wit: the individual is not the unit of moral analysis vis-a-vis the power of the state to interfere with private choices. (This is also why so many of the New Atheists disturb me; one catches more than a whiff of desire to prohibit religion and religious practices altogether.)
Anyway, this article is both inspiring and depressing. On the one hand, it is good to be reminded of the lives and people fighting for freedom. On the other, their situation seems so incredibly bleak.
Good post.
I have been skeptical of Hussain’s work, but this piece is the kind of thing we need more of, from all sides. More pieces showing empathy for Syrians on opposite sides or on no side ( so far as any of the armed factions are concerned). But what is missing fro this piece is the attitude of Khadr towards the various other armed factions. Which ones, if any, does he support and why or why not?. We are told he opposes ISIS and the Assad government. But they aren’t the only armed groups.
The point here is not to dismiss his views if he does in fact support some of the armed rebels, but to hear why. We should also hear why other Syrians support the government or the jihadis. Most of what I read about Syria in both the Western press and on dissident sites seems like one sided propaganda and not an attempt at fleshing out what various people on the ground actually think.
i.e., more objectivity and less advocacy. I definitely believe you have a point.
Where was the USA to assist the rebels in the Arab spring uprising in Bahrain in 2011? USA and British trained Saudi forces rolled across the border into Bahrain to violently suppress the uprising.
‘With Saudi forces securing strategic positions around the country, the government was able to fire rubber bullets, tear gas, and live ammunition at protesters at point-blank range. Bahraini police forces also imprisoned doctors, teachers, students, and defense lawyers— some indefinitely and without legitimate legal charges. During this period of Saudi interference, many Bahrainis were abducted and tortured, and more than 40 people were killed.’
The main players in Syria are groups supported by Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Turkey, and the USA. The Saudi groups hate democracy and promise to only cut off the heads of criminals for such offenses as abandoning Islam, being gay, or expressing political dissent. Who are we kidding to think the Saudi’s want a democratic Syria? The CIA has trained, armed, and payed wages to 10,000 + mercenaries to also attempt the violent overthrow of the Syrian government which has a right to defend itself.
Al-nusra in Syria is supported with money and weapons by Qatar with the knowledge of the USA. The USA has had at least 6 months to separate it’ moderate’ fighters from Al-nusra in Aleppo and failed to do so. ???
Remember the new Western backed Ukrainian government is also bombing its own people too.
So, now many Syrian cities look like Tokyo after the USA firebombed the city, targeting a densely populated area. 150,000+ civilians were burned alive. Since these actions violate international law, it is reasonable to place blame on those governments instead Russia and Assad.
The third option is also a violation of Syrian law and likely international law. There is no UN mandate authorizing interference in Syria’s internal affairs. ‘ Additionally’ Soviet style propaganda’ mentioned in the article was likely accurate. Films by USSR about USA shown to Russian citizens about USA were very accurate. My wife translates them for me. Consider that western media also is propaganda or just missing many important facts. It is hypocritical to supply weapons and training to one authoritarian government and then say this other authoritarian government should be overthrown because it is authoritarian. How disingenuous can the USA behave? Who will hold the USA accountable?
The narrative that secular revolution what solely from the grass roots up is false.
For sure many people were well meaning.
But there also was a significant outside coordinated effort to foment and orchestrate revolution in Syria, with the help of outside proxies like Srdja Popovic. Some of the self identified “secular” activists we now know were part of this operation and now work for Gulf supported “opposition”, that includes Al Qaeda affiliates.
To write a whole article and not explore this deplorable manipulation and exploitation of people is propaganda.
http://inthesetimes.com/uprising/entry/15945/wikileaks_docs_expose_famed_serbian_activists_ties_to_shadow_cia
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/wikileaks-us-secretly-backed-syria-opposition/
http://www.mediaed.org/transcripts/How-to-Start-a-Revolution-Transcript.pdf
http://in.mobile.reuters.com/article/idINKCN0ZY08E
Mostly all media ignores the U.S. role in instigating the conflict…
In 2012 the Washington Post and other media reported on a leaked diplomatic cable that revealed that since 2006 the U.S. has been working to destabilize Syria, wanting regime change:
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-syria-wikileaks-idUSTRE73H0E720110418
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/us-secretly-backed-syrian-opposition-groups-cables-released-by-wikileaks-show/2011/04/14/AF1p9hwD_story.html
more links on http://www.syria-infoandaction.com
At the beginning of the Syrian uprising, the U.S./ CIA working with Saudi Arabia probably infiltrated extremists into local dissident groups to foment violence, which was then encouraged by U.S. Ambassador to Syria, Robert Ford, who, like all Washington neocon types, expected the U.S. to do to Syria, what it had done to Libya.
Russia and China vetoed the necessary UN Security Council resolution so there was no basis under international law for intervention.
The U.S. has disregarded international law and armed those rebelling against the internationally recognized government of Syria.
To make such regime change respectable, Assad has to be demonized, despite his having the support of a majority of Syrians. To appease Saudi Arabia, Gulf monarchies and Israel and to weaken Russia, the U.S. intends to replace Assad with a submissive Sunni puppet.
Certainly there is non-extremist Syrian opposition to Assad.
Had the U.S. cared about Syrians and Syria, rather than pursuing the U.S. geopolitical goals, the U.S. could have encouraged Assad in more inclusive governance…
Those who care should tell Obama to stop any calls for regime change, and to work with Assad to calm the conflict, and to work for UN sponsored elections.
The U.S. is not really over its Civil War…
Reconciliation takes time, wisdom and courage.
Mr. Hussain
The Arab Spring was an uprising by people protesting for political rights. The revolution spread throughout the Middle East and into Syria. The Arab Spring wasn’t concocted by the CIA, or anyone else. This was a spontaneous revolution in an area with a history of authoritarianism and oppression. The entire Middle East was a powder keg. The protests in Syria were met with brutal violence by the Assad regime which initiated the war in Syria. Five years later, the violence continues.
Good article meant to remind the reader of the people behind the protests in Syria and throughout the Middle East. Indeed, they were/are courageous.
One of the saddest aspects of this article is that it implies
that there are three sides to this horror show –
Assad, ISIS, and those liberators who are featured in this article.
The truth is much worse.
The role of the NATOmics and how they helped ISIS, not just
in Syria but in the whole Middle East, is not mentioned.
Syria is a horror largely because of the devious plans of the
members of NATO, especially the liars from the faking U$A
who have promoted weapons and more weapons in order to
help destroy both Assad and those who are sincerely fighting
for their desired state’s liberties.
It did not have to unravel in the manner it has – except that
Syria has been made a pawn in a bigger game of predatory abusiveness.
The corruption of the commodity market “american way of life” depends
upon the escalation of destroying all states which do not comply
with its lust for global resources.
ISIS and NATO are both extremist groups of predators.
They both share in the same religion of violence for domination.
Great piece. Well done.