“The Struggle for Syria,” as Patrick Seale titled his 1965 classic, has escalated steadily since Britain seized the territory from Turkey in 1918. The British turned it over to France in 1920 and took it back from Vichy in 1942. Following nominal independence in 1946, Syria became a theater of Cold War rivalry between the United States and the Soviet Union. The stream of military coups between 1949 and 1970 concluded with the Hafez al-Assad putsch that left Syria in the Kremlin camp. Assad, however, proved anything but subservient to his superpower benefactor. The struggle for Syria continued in desultory fashion as Syria irritated Moscow by flirting with the U.S. in Lebanon and sending troops to support the American reconquista of Kuwait in 1991. The U.S. soon reverted to form, labeling Syria a “terrorist state” and condemning both its support for Hezbollah in Lebanon and its alliance with Iran. In 2011, the struggle became a war. The U.S. and Russia, as well as local hegemons, backed opposite sides, ensuring a balance of terror that has devastated the country and defies resolution.
The Russians, having lost Aden, Egypt, and Libya years earlier, backed their only client regime in the Arab world when it came under threat. The U.S. gave rhetorical and logistical support to rebels, raising false hopes — as it had done among the Hungarian patriots it left in the lurch in 1956 — that it would intervene with force to help them. Regional allies, namely Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and Turkey, were left to dispatch arms, money, and men, while disagreeing on objectives and strategy.
Christopher Phillips’s brilliant analysis of the factors fueling the Syria war is a refreshing contrast to works by most ostensible experts, who are partis pris, ill-informed, or both. With his new book, “The Battle for Syria: International Rivalry in the New Middle East,” published by Yale this month, Phillips joins a short list of writers, among them Joshua Landis, Patrick Cockburn, Fawaz Gerges, and the late Anthony Shadid, who have made original contributions to understanding the Syria war’s causes and consequences. “The Battle for Syria” makes a determined and successful stab at apportioning responsibility to all the countries whose lavish provision of weapons and money have prolonged the war far longer than Syria’s own resources would have permitted. The deaths of more than 500,000 and the dispossession of almost half of Syria’s estimated 22 million inhabitants testify to the lack of interest these outsiders have in Syria itself and the priority they place on their own competing goals.

Christopher Philipps’s “The Battle for Syria: International Rivalry in the New Middle East,” an analysis of the factors fueling the Syrian civil war.
Image: Yale University Press
Tunisia led the way, when popular demonstrations forced the exit of a Western-backed Arab head of state whose corruption and brutality were on a par with those of his colleagues elsewhere the Arab world. That success kindled hope that revolution was a viable option and made France in particular wary of further identification with untenable if hitherto compliant tyrants. The virus spread to other Arab countries, but it played out differently in every infected state. In Bahrain, the Saudis and the local royal family crushed the protestors. In Egypt, a dictator departed, the voters elected and then disowned a religious fanatic, and another military dictator restored the old order in a more vicious form. In Libya, unrest led to bloodshed and NATO intervention that replaced a dictatorship with virulent chaos.
Despite the failure of revolution everywhere but Tunisia, outside powers seized with alacrity on Syrian dissent to bring down a regime whose cardinal sin was its affiliation with Shiite Iran, Hezbollah, and Russia. While Syrian protestors sought relief from a security system that inhibited their basic rights, the outsiders who rallied to them, notably Saudi Arabia and Qatar, hardly stood as models of freedom and elected government. Syrian activists at first demanded reforms within the system and later a change of leadership without destroying, as the U.S. had done in Iraq, the state itself. The sheikhs of Riyadh and Doha, however, wanted to replace Bashar al-Assad with someone from the majority Sunni community who would enforce a style of dictatorship closer to their own Wahhabi beliefs and hostile to Iran.
By mid-2012, Phillips writes, the opposition was divided into no fewer than 3,250 armed companies. All attempts at unifying them failed, in part because local warlords sought loot rather than national victory and the outsiders refused to coordinate their policies. The traditional invaders of the Mideast — Britain, France, and the U.S. — became, in Phillips’s words, “prisoners of their own rhetoric.” Phillips accuses the U.S. of a “significant historical knowledge gap on Syria” and brands as “inexcusable” Obama’s reticence to consider contingency plans when his belief in Assad’s imminent demise did not come to fruition. Saudi Arabia, in Phillips’s view, overestimated the rebels’ strength while underestimating Assad’s. Saudi Arabia was not alone in that miscalculation. Yet, Phillips argues, Obama resisted the arguments of those, like Hillary Clinton, urging direct American military action even at the risk of war with Russia.
Whenever Assad’s back is against the wall, Russia and Iran pitch in with more help. When the rebels retreat, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and Turkey send more fighters and weapons. If Hillary Clinton becomes commander in chief on January 20, 2017, her promise of an American-patrolled no-fly zone will lead to direct confrontation between Russian and American warplanes and draw the U.S. deeper into a war that Phillips believes Obama was right to avoid. She should read this book first.
Greenwald v Dershowitz Toronto Munk Debate on Statement: “Be it resolved state surveillance is a legitimate defense of our freedoms”
As Juan Cole described the debate and Greenwald’s decisive win:
The debate can be seen here. Greenwald carries his side entirely, while Dershowtiz is primary on the other, tho gets more help from Hayden than Ohanian offers to Glenn.
It may not be fully observable on this video, but an attendee in the first row has stated that by the conclusion Dershowitz appears properly chastened, weak, shaking and defeated. Certainly he lost.
I will not be engaging Craig Summers in this thread, including on his many off-topic posts pertaining to Israel and it’s apartheid regime. Interested readers are referred to my comment in this thread in which the the internationally-accepted definition of ‘Apartheid’ is placed alongside relevant examples of Israel’s human rights record.
In that same thread, use the “Ctrl F” function on my user name to locate dozens more relevant, sourced and linked comments highly relevant to that topic. (And read the article above the comments.)
I commonly post many comments with reliable, linked information relevant to the topic at hand and can likely direct to other threads vis-a-vis any other issue pertaining to Israel-Palestine where I have commented in that same, informative manner, should an interested reader asking in good faith request that I do so.
Alan Dershowitz – hated by the extreme left and the extreme right – correctly asserts in the JP today:
“………The hard Right and the hard Left have more in common than either has to centrist liberals and conservatives. They both hate America, distrust government, demonize Israel and promote antisemitic tropes……”
Of course, he did forget that humanitarian concerns are only for political convenience for the “hard” left. No one ever believed that human rights were a concern of the “hard” right.
READERS: I have a great deal of material on pro-torture Alan “torture warrants” Dershowitz concerning his lies and failures. I will be happy to provide links to my documentation to any good faith requester.
In the meantime, Noam Chmosky undertook a calm, factual evisceration of a particular mendacious Dershowitz episode here.
I will not engage Craig Summers, whom I encourage all to ignore. Should he reply to me in in any manner I will ignore it unless another, good faith reader asks for further clarification or rebuttal.
(Interestingly, Glenn Greenwald beat Alan Dershowitz in formal debate several years ago in the famous Toronto Munk Debates. It’s a truly fascinating event and Dershowitz is left red-faced and limply angry, and defeated, by the end. I will link to this event should any interested reader request that I do so.)
“…….I will not engage [Mona] whom I encourage all to ignore……”
(Except I will.) What so and so did in a debate is besides the point (obviously Mona has a very biased point of view). What matters is that Dershowitz correctly detailed that there is much in common between the hard (far, extreme, radical) left and the hard right. They both hate Israel and promote antisemitic tropes of Jews. However, the hard left detest America like no other. Mona is a prime example of the hard left – the best I have come across in several years of posting below the line at the Intercept and the Guardian. Regardless, extreme anti-Americanism is a basic tenant of the far left. Greenwald’s bitter response to Americans celebrating the killing Bin Laden of Bin Laden is a classic example (“Killing of bin Laden: What are the consequences?”, Salon, 5-2-2011):
“……..I got on an airplane last night before the news of bin Laden’s killing was known and had actually intended to make this point with regard to our killing of Gadaffi’s son in Libya — a mere 25 years after President Reagan bombed Libya and killed Gadaffi’s infant daughter. That is something the U.S. has always done well and is one of the few things it still does well……”
One of the few things Americans do well. Bitter anti-Americanism.
READERS: Please Ignore Craig Summers.
He is an explicitly pro-torture, authoritarian, fanatically Zionist, jingoistic Republican and Trump voter (usually) who posts vast walls of dense (sic), endless text. I’ve been ignoring him 95% of the time since last spring, at the request of multiple readers, and doing that does, indeed, reduce the amount of text-plastering he does. (He gets deleted if he spews too much that’s not a legitimate reply.)
He traffics almost completely in fallacies, including the Whataboutery I describe in a comment here.
Scrolling past him often yields comments worth reading.
SURGEON GENERAL’S WARNING: Discussing politics with CraigSummers could lead to support for torture and authoritarianism, belief that war is the best form of diplomacy, drones terrorize the terrorists, the Russians can be defeated in a nuclear war and colonialism made the world a better place – and may complicate pregnancy.
Mona writes:
“……..All they do is spew about being “pro-Assad,” hypocrisy, and any other whataboutery, non sequiturs and ad hominems — never dealing forthrightly with what could reasonably be expected to be the result of implementing their positions. Never addressing that Russia sincerely believes — whether reasonably or not — that it has vital interests at stake in Syria……”
Russia does believe they have vital interests in Syria. No one can deny that. Of course, the US, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Iran, and Hezbollah all believe they have “vital interests” as well. In fact, “reasonable or not”, ISIS and al-Qaeda believe they have vital interests – and no one should forget that Assad has vital interests in maintaining his dictatorship as do the Syrians that were marching for political rights when they were ambushed by the Syrian military killing hundreds. Everyone supplying weapons and manpower to the conflict have “vital interests”.
So why do the vital interests of Russia take priority over the vital interests of everyone else (according to Mona)? If the US attempts to set up a no fly zone, this could cause a conflict between Russia and the US. As everyone knows, Russia has brought in the S-300 and S-400 anti-missile defense system which, effectively, sets up a no fly zone over Syria for the Russians. Russia has escalated and raised the stakes in the conflict. Is this to protect Syrians? No, in fact, just the opposite is true. It’s to ensure that Russia and the Syrian regime can obliterate East Aleppo unopposed where about 250,000 civilians are at risk in the war zone. This will ensure that Assad the murderer will remain in power – to protect Russian, Iranian and Hezbollah interests. According to Mona and much of the far left which has yet to propose any alternatives, they are willing to sacrifice the civilians, hospitals, ambulances and so on in in East Aleppo to avoid possible conflict between the US and Syria.
Of course, I am skeptical that the far left cares about Syrian civilians at all. The Stop the War Coalition summed it up best for the radical left:
“……“And anyone who has a responsibility for peace or the future of the planet quite frankly needs to mobilise against that, and that means opposing the west.”…..”
Apparently it seems, at all costs. Radical leftism is an illness.
Sam Charles Hamad writes (Daily Beast – PUTIN’S LITTLE APOLOGISTS – “Russia Bombs Hospitals. Lefties Shrug”):
“…….There is a gruesomely perfect example of this hypocrisy that has been visible this month relating to the U.S. war crime in Kunduz. Since Russia decided to directly intervene on behalf of the Assad regime primarily against not ISIS, as it had stated, but rather the moderate rebel forces that fight both the Assad regime and ISIS, it has carried out no less than four confirmed attacks on medical facilities, while it has also deliberately targeted ambulances. The reaction of the left to Kunduz was one of near apoplectic outrage, but among none of the major organizations or individuals of the left will you find even a quotidian acknowledgement of the continued attacks by Russia on medical facilities in Syria…….”
Nothing points out the hypocrisy of the radical left quite like the war in Syria. Greenwald published at least four articles expressing outrage over the US bombing of the hospital in Afghanistan. He called the accounts of the bombing by Doctors Without Borders “hard to read”, but until very recently, the Intercept never published a single article on the Syrian civil war – the largest current ongoing humanitarian crisis in the world today.
When Israel bombs Gaza, the far left immediately expresses their outrage for all of the dead civilians. There is talk of genocide and massacres – the brutal US-supported Israelis are targeting civilians and ambulances. Blumenthal writes about the killing of four Palestinian children on a Gaza beach. Dead children suddenly appear at the top of articles. And the brutal war in Syria that has claimed over 100 times more lives than Operation Protective Edge? That is a much simpler analysis for the radical left: the White Helmets have a political agenda and the US is fueling the resistance. They don’t express any empathy for the doctors or patients targeted and bombed by Russia and/or the Assad regime or even the dead children – and no articles of course. Who does the extreme left empathize with in Syria? They sympathize with their own plight martyring themselves for being called apologist for the Assad regime – which they are. They victimize theirselves with charges of “McCarthyism”. The hypocrisy of the radical left could not possibly be more stark.
Robert Caruso, who identifies as a “Hillary fellow” with her campaign, and has been treated reverently by the mainstream media, turns out to be a fraud. His most recent sociopathic declarations concern Syria. He advocates full-throttle military intervention taking on Russia to show it who’s boss — this he has peddled all over, from MSNBC, to Huffington Post. (He tells anti-interventionists on Twitter he will “enjoy seeing your beloved Syria torn apart.” This passes for humor in the interventionist crowd.)
To Caruso, we are in a new Cold War, and Russia is the bogey man behind every evil — and this sells. It’s become extremely popular with neoliberals, who are combining in this dangerous madness with the neocons.
But the guy’s s total fraud.
Nevertheless, he’s beloved by the Hillary media and the neocons because he peddles war, especially in Syria. And he does it well. That he’s a liar and lacks most of the credentials he has claimed isn’t held against him when he’s as useful to the warmongers as he is.
READERS: Please Ignore Craig Summers.
He is an explicitly pro-torture, authoritarian, fanatically Zionist, jingoistic Republican and Trump voter (usually) who posts vast walls of dense (sic), endless text. I’ve been ignoring him 95% of the time since last spring, at the request of multiple readers, and doing that does, indeed, reduce the amount of text-plastering he does. (He gets deleted if he spews too much that’s not a legitimate reply.)
Scrolling past him often yields comments worth reading.
If any reader chooses to hurt their head by trying to make it through Mr. Summers’ endless bilge and would like to know a rebuttal to any particular point, please ask. Otherwise, as I say, I shall ignore him.
Brave words Mona. I’ll be waiting……….
Oops, I left out my constant caveat: I mean “any reader” whom I deem to be asking in good faith.
SURGEON GENERAL’S WARNING: Discussing politics with CraigSummers could lead to support for torture and authoritarianism, belief that war is the best form of diplomacy, drones terrorize the terrorists, and colonialism made the world a better place – and may complicate pregnancy.
“…….If any reader chooses to hurt their head by trying to make it through Mr. Summers’ endless bilge and would like to know a rebuttal to any particular point, please ask. Otherwise, as I say, I shall ignore him…..”
Keeping score of the “drivel”:
Mona’s name appears 194 times on this thread
Craigsummers’s name appears 85 times
READERS: Mona set the record (as far as I know) when her name appeared 392 times on a single thread.
I’ve said it time and time again that the truth is not the objective of the left. Far from it. Two examples follow:
“……..Ilan Pappe, a history lecturer at the University of Haifa, freely admits that, in his view, facts are irrelevant when it comes to the history of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. “Indeed the struggle is about ideology, not about facts, Who knows what facts are? We try to convince as many people as we can that our interpretation of the facts is the correct one, and we do it because of ideological reasons, not because we are truthseekers,” Pappe said in an interview with the French newspaper Le Soir, Nov. 29, 1999…….”
Below is a quote from Michael Neumann, Professor of Philosophy and author of the book, “The Case Against Israel” (a counter to “The Case For Israel” by Alan Dershowitz).
“……….The Canadian Jewish Congress reported in 2003 on an email exchange between Neumann and the proprieters on the antisemitic website Jewish Tribal Review…………The Web site quotes Neumann as writing, “I should perhaps have said I am very interested in truth, justice and understanding, but right now I have far more interest in helping the Palestinians. I would use anything, including lies, injustice and obfuscation, to do so. If an effective strategy means that some truths about the Jews don’t come to light, I don’t care. If an effective strategy means encouraging reasonable anti-Semitism or reasonable hostility to Jews, I don’t care. If it means encouraging vicious racist anti-Semitism, or the destruction of the State of Israel, I still don’t care.”……..”
So when someone posts that Israel is the same as apartheid South Africa, you will understand the political motivation behind the lie. Indeed, lying is part and parcel to the strategy of the far left to destroy the Jewish state.
A clear strategy of the radical left is to lie – especially when it comes to the IP conflict. Ali Abudimah supports the one state solution, and he – like all who uniquely oppose Jewish self-determination – compares Israel to apartheid South Africa (UK Media Watch):
“………..“This struggle has already begun as more and more Palestinians, recognizing that statehood is unrealistic, debate and adopt the one-state solution, offering Israelis and Palestinians equal rights in the land they share. Last year, I was part of a group of Palestinians, Israelis and others who published the “One State Declaration.” Inspired partly by South Africa’s Freedom Charter, we set out principles for a common future in a single democratic state. Most Israelis, unsurprisingly, recoil at comparisons with apartheid South Africa. The good news for them is that the end of apartheid did not bring about the disaster many feared. Rather, it was a new dawn for all the people of the country.” Remembering 1948 and looking to the future May 13, 2008…..”
Abudimah supports a single democratic state (as does Blumenthal). Can Mr. Abudimah draw upon any examples of Arab democracies that might serve as examples to ease the fears of Jews that would be forced to live under Palestinian majority rule? Jews would undoubtedly become a minority population under Palestinian Arab leadership with the arrival of millions of refugees. The Arab Spring was stopped in its tracks despite courageous attempts by some Arabs to protest for the right to participate in the political process. Islamists co-opted the movement with extreme anti-Muslim violence (on full display in Syria, Iraq and Libya). The Palestinians elected an internationally recognized Islamic terrorist organization to power with a well-known and documented racist anti-Semitic charter which Hamas still refuses to renounce. Palestinian leaders have proven time and time again they cannot even work together without violence. Western Liberal Democracies are foreign to Arab culture(s) and there is no reason to believe that Hamas and other fundamentalists would be comfortable in a democratic setting.
Additionally, why does the radical left cite South African when looking at the aftermath of the single state solution, but not former Rhodesia – a failed state which converted to majority rule in 1980? A similar economic disparity exists between Jews and Palestinians as existed between whites and blacks in former Rhodesia (Zimbabwe). Jews control the economy and land while Palestinians including millions of refugees own relatively little. Jews have settled where Palestinians were forced to leave in 1948. Land has been forcibly transferred to black ownership in Zimbabwe. A white exodus has taken place from a population of about 300,000 to less than 50,000 since majority rule was adopted (Wikipedia).
“……..Little land had been redistributed and frustrated groups of government supporters began seizing white-owned farms. Most of the seizures have taken place in Nyamandhalovu and Inyati.[76] After the beating to death of a prominent farmer in September 2011, the head of the Commercial Farmers’ Union decried the attack saying its white members continue to be targeted by violence without protection from the government.[77] Genocide Watch has declared the violence against whites in Zimbabwe a stage 5 case.[78] In September 2014 Mugabe publicly declared that all white Zimbabweans should “go back to England” and called for black Zimbabweans not to lease agricultural land to white farmers…….”
Does anyone really believe that Palestinians are not going demand changes? No Jew in his or her right mind would be willing to take the chance on a one state solution. A mass exodus of Jews would certainly take place over the next several decades. Of course, for racist like Abudimah, the Jews have it coming. What does it matter if Jews are forced to leave? After all, nearly one million Jews have been forced to leave the greater Middle East since 1948 – a fact left out of the discussion by the radical left. In other words, Jews cannot be victims. The one state solution is a non-starter to resolve the conflict.
Our American tax dollars at work: Inside west Aleppo: civilian death toll rises in rebel assault as deadline approaches for bloody battle
Russia and the government of Syria are slaughtering many innocents. So are the rebels we support.
Ali Abunimiah writes about Max Blumenthal and Murtaza Hussain et al’s panel: Debating escalation of the war in Syria
As Ali notes, Maz spewed a false claim during that debate, and then wouldn’t assist in clarifying where he got his (mis)information (my emphasis):
It’s very disappointing that Maz made such a baseless claim, and then was so unhelpful in pinning it down.
“Humanitarian” cease fire ends today in East Aleppo (al-Jazeera):
“……….Opposition fighters fired rockets at an evacuation route in Syria’s Aleppo on Friday and there was no sign of civilians or rebels leaving besieged neighbourhoods as a Russian-declared unilateral ceasefire came to end……….”[People in eastern Aleppo] are bracing themselves for a new phase of Russian air strikes,” said Al Jazeera’s Mohammed Adow, reporting from Gaziantep along the Turkey-Syria border……Halfway through Friday’s 10-hour ceasefire, AFP correspondents in Aleppo said no one had used any of the passages Moscow said were open……..UN agencies tried but failed to organise evacuation convoys during last month’s pause……”The UN will not be involved in any way in the evacuation of civilians from east Aleppo related to this announcement,” said David Swanson, a spokesman for the UN humanitarian office……”We remain very, very concerned about the humanitarian situation in east Aleppo. There have been no humanitarian supplies reaching the east of the city since early July.”…….Rights group Amnesty International also criticised the limited ceasefire, saying it was “no substitute for unfettered and impartial humanitarian access and ensuring protection of civilians”…….Hundreds of civilians have been killed in the city’s rebel-held sector since the Syrian army and its allies launched an offensive to recapture it in September……”
Jamie Palmer writes how the disease of extreme anti-Zionism found its way into the west and was embraced by the far left (“The Holocaust, the Left, and the Return of Hate”, April, 2016; http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/262557/holocaust-left-and-return-hate-jamie-palmer#.WBxv3Ln_jAA.twitter )
“…….And in 1975, the UN General Assembly passed resolution 3379 declaring Zionism to be “a form of racism.” Whether or not this resolution was tabled at the behest of the Soviet Union, as some historians have alleged, the Soviets voted for it. All of which would have been bad enough had it been confined to the Soviet sphere. But in the democratic West, Soviet anti-Semitism was diligently and uncritically reproduced in the communist press and thus made its way into the ideological bloodstream of the Left. Writers for L’Humanité in France, Öesterreichische Volkstimme in Austria, Drapeau Rouge in Belgium, Vorwärts in Switzerland,L’Unita in Italy, and the Daily Worker in Britain repeated sedition charges against Soviet Jews. Anyone on the Left who objected was attacked and defamed as a Zionist shill. And a series of claims about Zionism and the true nature of the State of Israel began their slow, patient journey from the radical fringe to the mainstream. The claims that Zionism is racism, the instrument or puppeteer of Jewish and American imperialists, a project of Western colonialism, or a template for Jewish world domination; that Zionists were co-conspirators and ideological ancestors of Nazi Germany who control markets, industry, and media; and that Israel is a “terrorist regime”—all such claims originated in Soviet propaganda and are widespread on today’s activist Left [radical left]…….” My insert in brackets
Nobody coddles, embraces, makes excuses for and promotes propaganda for terrorists and dictators quite like the radical left – as long as they oppose the US (and Israel). It is strictly about blaming the US (and Israel) for the world’s ills. McCarthyism has nothing to do with it – Syria or anywhere else:
Who can even differentiate between the propaganda of Bin Laden and Greenwald?
“……That study concluded that “Muslims do not ‘hate our freedom,’ but rather, they hate our policies”: specifically “American direct intervention in the Muslim world” — through the US’s “one sided support in favor of Israel”; support for Islamic tyrannies in places like Egypt and Saudi Arabia; and, most of all, “the American occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan”….” – Greenwald quoted the misguided conclusions of the 2004 Defense Science Board Task Force……on Terrorism and Islamic radicalism
………It’s in the world of reality, not conspiracy, where the US and Israel have continuously brought extreme amounts of violence to the Muslim world, routinely killing their innocent men, women and children. Listening to Engel, one would never know about tiny little matters like the bombing of Gaza and Lebanon, the almost five-decade long oppression of Palestinians, the widely hated, child-killing drone campaign, or the attack on Iraq…..” – Greenwald
“……..The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq. These tax dollars are given to Israel for it to continue to attack us and penetrate our lands. So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against us, and they are the ones who oversee the expenditure of these monies in the way they wish, through their elected candidates…….” – Bin Laden planting the seeds for far left anti-American and anti-Israel propaganda even as al-Qaeda murders Muslims throughout the greater Middle East.
Ben White assuring us that Ahmadinejad was not really denying the Holocaust (unnamed source and anti-Jewish bigot used by Mona to criticize Jonathan Freedland on this thread):
“…….“The second, highly publicized, remarks came in mid-December, when Ahmadinejad was reported as denying the Holocaust. The President’s remarks, as detailed on the official Iranian news agency website, did not actually denote a disbelief in the genocide perpetrated against the Jews during World War II……Note also that the President said, “some have created a myth on holocaust”. While most people immediately equate a ‘myth’ with a fabricated fairy-tale, this is not necessarily the case……..” – Ben White
Max Blumenthal trying to bring respectability to the internationally recognized terrorist organization in Gaza that has a long history of terrorism i.e., targeting civilians (interview with Greenwald at the Intercept):
“……..So, the development of the al-Qassam brigades is one of the untold stories of this war. If we look at the casualty total of Israeli citizens, we see that about 72 Israeli citizens died. Sixty-seven of them were combat soldiers, which is evidence that soldiers and not civilians were targeted…….Mohammed Deif, the commander of the al-Qassam brigades, and his spokesman, Abu Ubaida, both explicitly declared they were targeting Israeli soldiers, and not civilians. They mocked the Israeli military as cowards for attacking civilians in the Gaza Strip……” – Blumenthal as an apologist for Hamas terror.
“I suspect that the urge to purge is growing, and that the flashpoint will be Syria.” – Freddie deBoer
Great essay; thanks for the link
Below I quoted from Freddie de Boer’s superb piece, 1953—2002—2016: SYRIA AND THE REEMERGENCE OF MCCARTHYISM, but I want to highlight his definition of modern McCarthysim:
That is, it is decided to treat people of good faith with whom one merely disagrees as if they are Internet trolls, but do so everywhere. Sounds cute, but it’s utterly toxic.
McCarthyism on Syria, and of course on Israel; the ACLU of Pennsylvania
The Legislative Director of ACLU of Pennsylvania asks the Governor to veto a bill that requires loyalty oaths to Israel.
Whataboutery: the Zionists favorite fallacy
Virtually all Israel apologists and hasbara-ists heavily deploy this fallacy. They must, for the facts of Zionism — past and present — are odious. So deflection and changing the subject really are their only option.
The HOLOCAUST INDUSTRY is alive and well . We just got our pockets picked by APARTHEID ISRAEL again … for $38 billion !
The troll “Mani”says:
You posted using my name, but without my signature dashes. I emailed them a link to it and told them the content was you, and it was — all that “you are a lapdog shit” and etc. That post was deleted, and the account posting it was banned. So, if you found yourself banned, IT WAS YOU DOING IT.
Do it again, and you’ll be deleted and banned again. *I* cannot ban anyone. Only an account I submit, that they agree should be banned, can be banned. And for a reasons they agree with.
And you (or someone else) has done it before. Another miscreant here, nuf said, has an obsession with someone posting using my name (but no signature dashes). Posts that are not me. I had that one deleted and banned as well, which nuf imagines is some sort of evil plot on my part.
Some assholes also impersonated me when Glenn was at The Guardian — it’s a popular sport, to sign up impersonating me.
It’s also not allowed.
Oh geez, the fruit of posting in a hurry. Immediately after “Mani says” should be his quote:
This Mani here has never been banned. Not a single of my posts since I started writing here have been deleted. They are all still available so everybody can see how I have exposed your ignorance, your dedication to be lapdog and your pathetic lack of critical thinking skills.
That is what happens when your whole life consists of sitting behind a computer and writing anti Israel lines. You become a confused laughable brainless fool.
Now again. Call me a troll, report me to TI again, and this time make sure they ban me not anyone else so you can prove my point that the comment section is just a reunion of stupid lapdogs like you. In other words a comedy show.
Click the link to this comment: https://theintercept.com/2016/10/06/u-s-admits-israel-is-building-permanent-apartheid-regime-weeks-after-giving-it-38-billion/?comments=1#comment-291803
I sent that link and they deleted the comment it was to– they did that for being posted in my name when it was a long screed clearly by you — attacking me in your usual stupidity about lapdogs and etc. It’s not there — all you get to is the article with that link; no comment shows up any longer, because your impersonating comment of me was deleted.
You were gone for a good week after that. Either they also banned you (that’s usual for impersonating), or you just made a new account. I neither know nor care — don’t impersonate me, don’t crapflood, and no one, including me, will report you.
You went and did it yet again. In another thread you got deleted and banned (for libeling — in the legal sense, not mere lying — a staff writer). If you show up yet again, it’s because you are creating new accounts to circumvent justified bans.
I have been referred to on these threads as the whataboutery king – a charge that I am proud of. However, this thread has threatened my status. In an article (Glass) that is about the proxy and civil war in Syria where Israel is not mentioned even one time in the article, Israel comes up 153 times on below the line comments. Zionism or Zionist is mentioned 65 times. Irrelevant US actions are also mentioned on several occasions – like Iraq, for example. It really just mostly shows the hatred directed at the Jewish state by the extreme left and the (always) tandem association of anti-Americanism and anti-Israelism. These are just a few examples. As always, the most radical anti-Zionist is Mona – bar none. And the brutal bombing by Russia and the Assad regime killing thousands of civilians? As usual – a secondary consideration (or lower).
Bob
“……Would love to hear your opinion on Amnesty International when they critiqued the last “bombing campaign” of besieged Gaza. At least in Aleppo, civilians are free to leave (if the militants allow it) unlike Gaza where basically its like shooting fish in a barrel……..”
Rrheard
“……..So by that standard, did the US commit any WAR CRIMES when it invaded and engaged in a massive bombing campaign in, well, all of Iraq, illegally kidnapped, imprisoned and tortured thousands? How about its bombing of MSF hospitals? How about its arming in the 80s of what came to be Al Qaeda?……”
Fellow Citizen
“The slaughter of the innocents of Aleppo started long ago: it’s time they did their bit to stop the war…….”
The slaughter of the innocent PALESTINIANS started long ago: it’s time they did their bit to stop the war…….”
“An extreme amount of International pressure has been exerted on Russia because of their bombing campaign…”
An extreme amount of International pressure has been exerted on ISRAEL because of their bombing campaign.
“Most recently, a school was bombed killing 22 children and six teachers. Russia denied bombing the school”
“According to an initial assessment, Israeli artillery on at least three occasions hit an UNRWA school where 3,300 people were seeking refuge. While the agency says it is too early to provide a death toll, there are at least 16 civilians believed to be dead, and several, including to women and children, and to UNRWA guards trying to protect the site.”
(AND SO ON)
Gert
“……Freedland (whom I know very well) is an annoying liberal ‘Israel uber alles’ Zionist twerp and a stain on The Grauniad…….FUCK OFF, Craig…….”
O. Swartz
“…….You call Russia’s involvement “Putin’s military adventurism”. Apply the same rubric to the U.S.: Will it be Hillary’s military adventurism? You complain of Glass’s choice of words, be careful of your own…….”
Mona
“……. But readers should be alerted that he, and virtually all Israel apologists, support Western intervention in Syria purely because Israel wants it, as well as support for ISIS in that nation…….”
“……..ZIONISTS,including Craig Summers, want intervention purely because of ISRAEL……It has nothing — diddly squat — to do with “humanitarian”concerns, or dead Syrian children. No, they even support **ISIS** in Syria. And the reason, the whole reason, is I*S*R*A*E*L…..”
“…….But readers should be alerted that he, and virtually all Israel apologists, support Western intervention in Syria purely because Israel wants it, as well as support for ISIS in that nation……..”
“………The Zionists have their tribally dictated preference for ISIS vis-a-vis Syria, and I’m convinced much of the rest of the passion for intervention — and the venom, the utter foul shit directed at those who disagree — is also driven by sectarian or tribal interests……”
“……..My documented sub-thread demonstrating what drives Zionists support for ISIS in Syria (in strong preference to Bashar al-Assad) starts here……”
“…….As I’ve documented several times below, Israel apologists overwhelmingly do not want ISIS — which has spread from Iraq — destroyed in Syria; they would prefer ISIS ruling in Syria over Assad remaining in power……”
Mona’s link (“1953—2002—2016: SYRIA AND THE REEMERGENCE OF MCCARTHYISM”, FREDRIK DEBOER, 11-02-2016):
“………Take a typical missive in the stalwart leftist publication Socialist Worker. Stanley Heller, after engaging in the typical angry-old-man-leftist tactic of thumping his anti-Vietnam bona fides, ticks off every cliché imaginable: that to criticize or question the exact makeup of the anti-Assad forces in Syria is to be functionally pro-Assad, that such an attitude can only be the product of naïve West vs. East thinking, that Russia and Iran are the real Big Bads in the world, that skeptics of the Syrian resistance just don’t care enough about the destruction……”
It’s not that Stanley Heller or most supporters of regime change consider all resistance to Assad as the same protesters that were brutally quelled by the Assad regime in 2011. There are some really bad actors fighting Assad including al-Qaeda and ISIS. They are terrorists plain and simple. However, Assad has out-terrorized the worst terrorist using chemical weapons, murdering tens of thousands in regime prisons and detention centers, using indiscriminate civilian killing barrel bombs, targeting hospitals and civilians, using food as a weapon of war and so on. How is that any worse than ISIS or al-Qaeda? Does burning to death one Jordanian pilot make ISIS worse than Assad who murdered 25,000-50,000 people held in regime detention – after torturing them. In a recent article by Murtaza Hussain (SYRIA’S “VOICE OF CONSCIENCE” HAS A MESSAGE FOR THE WEST), Syrians who led the revolution in 2011 for political rights fear Assad far more than ISIS. Real Syrians understand that there can be no political solution while Assad remains in power.
Russia – drawing upon their brutal campaign in Chechnya – has only added to the woes of the Syrians caught in the war by essentially carpet bombing East Aleppo in an attempt to break the resistance. They are following the same patterns as in Grozny targeting hospitals and civilians (as Amnesty International outlines from their 2000 Summary report below):
“………..eyewitnesses and victims reported that Russian forces directly attacked civilian targets including hospitals, medical personnel and vehicles clearly marked with the Red Cross emblem, causing high civilian casualties……….A number of incidents were reported in which civilian convoys carrying people fleeing the conflict, especially those travelling on the main road out of Chechnya towards Ingushetia, were subjected to bombing from the air or artillery shelling. On 21 October a series of explosions in the central market, a mosque and the only working maternity hospital in Grozny reportedly left at least 137 civilians dead and about 400 wounded in what appeared to be an indiscriminate attack by Russian forces. The dead included 13 mothers and 15 new-born babies……..”
The radical left is not interested in the humanitarian issues surrounding the war in Syria. They simply (like Stop the War Coalition) oppose the west. That is the one underlying motivating factor. They do love to play the role of the victim, however. Anyone who disagrees with the hypocritical extreme left supports McCarthyism.
1953—2002—2016: SYRIA AND THE REEMERGENCE OF MCCARTHYISM
Yes, indeed, so many who were right about Iraq, right about Libya — right about all the interventions — get zero credit; there is no vilification too foul to hurl at them. One suspect this is in part because the same reasons we should not have intervened in those prior nations are in play via-a-vis Syria, and it makes interventionists wildly angry to press for confronting the realities that make this so.
So, they smear and otherwise carry on like McCarthyites.
@Doc Hollywood
On every level. Maz and his partner flatly would not address the realities of a NFZ — the woman just kept referencing some Syrians who asked for one. But she, like Maz, absolutely refused to address the reality of what that would entail.
Zein noted that Hillary said in Goldman Sachs speech that a NFZ would kill many Syrian civilians. And indeed, it would requires some 70k U.S. troops to implement, and to enforce it we’d have to be willing to shoot down Russian planes. Zein thinks that means she’s bluffing — I don’t agree.
There’s a huge PR campaign to get that done. These people aren’t spending all that money just to see Hillary balk.
But whatever else is true, the vitriol has to stop. It shouldn’t be the price for insisting interventionists address the realities of what they advocate. If the truth is too hard to face and admit, they should reconsider their demands.
Amnesty International (2000) Report on the Russian Federation’s war in Chechnya:
“………..eyewitnesses and victims reported that Russian forces directly attacked civilian targets including hospitals, medical personnel and vehicles clearly marked with the Red Cross emblem, causing high civilian casualties……….A number of incidents were reported in which civilian convoys carrying people fleeing the conflict, especially those travelling on the main road out of Chechnya towards Ingushetia, were subjected to bombing from the air or artillery shelling. On 21 October a series of explosions in the central market, a mosque and the only working maternity hospital in Grozny reportedly left at least 137 civilians dead and about 400 wounded in what appeared to be an indiscriminate attack by Russian forces. The dead included 13 mothers and 15 new-born babies……..”
Sound familiar? The targeting of hospitals, medical personnel, aid convoys, ambulances and civilians, in general, in Syria is a war strategy of terror successfully employed by Putin in Chechnya (essentially without any international condemnation). The lull in the air war by Russia is due to international pressure, but Putin also understands he has a limited window to finish the campaign before the new US President takes office on January 20th. Putin has backed himself into a corner with the deployment of the S-300 and S-400 anti-missile defense systems and by bringing more ships including their one aircraft carrier to the Mediterranean. The Russian Air Force and Navy are no match for NATO and the US.
‘Syria and the Left’ panel w/ Max Blumenthal, Loubna Mrie, Zein El-Amine, Murtaza Hussain
Twitter had a pretty big, nasty fight over this — before and during — but also an announcement that after the event both Max and Maz were overheard agreeing that the vitriol online had to stop. As an observer who started out non-aligned, I know the venom was overwhelmingly coming from the interventionists, and still is.
Indeed, it’s been hard to separate the facts and logic of the arguments from my visceral contempt for the behavior of so many interventionists; hard not to judge their position solely by their despicable behavior. I’m still working on that.
Anyway, I’m now going to watch.
So, at almost 45 minutes in, I just don’t know what Murtaza is thinking. He concedes U.S. intervention would probably make things worse (if I heard him correctly) but he insists that Assad has to be gone. Max asks him how? But Maz just moves on.
Maz keeps saying there has to be accountability; Assad and his henchmen have to be held accontable the same way as Catholic priests who molest children. But how?
That’ what’s so frustrating with these critics of individuals such as Max. They propose all these lofty sentiments and aspirations but don’t want to get down to the hard, nitty-gritty of how it would or could get done. That kind of thinking out loud is, to understate, not useful “analysis.”
Back to it.
Well, there’s just no way around it. Max and the activist on his side simply made far, far better arguments. Maz, and the Syrian woman he was with for the other side could not state what specific things they thought “the left” was doing wrong vis-a-vis Syria.
As I’ve seen for some time now, people who criticize Max don’t want necessarily to endorse full-throated U.S. intervention, but at the same time, they are angry at those actually opposing it.
Especially if that entails exposing The Syria Campaign and the way the elite managers of the White Helmets advocate for intervention. It’s somehow wrong, apparently, to focus on anything other than the rescuers on the ground and also look hard at those hobnobbing for regime change at parties in D.C.
Honestly, it’s just clear that even if they deny it, the critics of anti-interventionists really do want intervention. But they don’t want to have to answer the hard questions of what that would look like and what results could reasonably be expected. They’re angry that people like Max confront them with those unwelcome questions.
Intervention in Syria means you make a deal with the lesser of two evils (like the US did with the Kurds in Kobani) and set up a no fly zone where civilians can be safe. The intervention can be focused on the safety of civilians. Yes, it also means warning the Russians their planes will be shot down if they enter the no fly zone. Did the Russians start a war with Turkey (a Nato member) after they themselves admitted the Turks shot down their planes in Syria?
Since you are a lapdog, a pitiful coward, and a brainless individual whose life consists of writing anti Israel rant then you cannot think critically. You are just a pathetic individual who exclusively depends on others to establish a point of view. Genocides happened and will continue to happen thanks to deplorable people like you who are too coward to stand up to a bully even with the most advanced weapons in your arsenal.
Now call me a troll and a zionist so you can prove my point. Don’t forget to report me to TI again.
You are a troll, one I substantively ignore, almost always. You were reported and deleted for impersonating me. Don’t post using my name and you won’t have a problem, unless and until you crapflood.
“You were reported and deleted for impersonating me. ”
WTF????
Do you seriously have some mental problems?
You accused me of following you in real life to hurt you. Now you are accusing me of impersonating you.
I used to laugh at you because of your poor critical thinking skills and your dedication to be somebody else lapdog. But now I am starting to think that you are seriously mentally disable. That is not funny at all.
Good panel discussion; Murtaza presented himself well, but Max and Zein had the better points imo
What the fuck, Gil? You are omitting SALIENT facts
Peter Tatchell explicitly wants Western intervention in Syria. He calls it a “No Bomb Zone,” but speaks about it as what others call a “No Fly Zone.” That was very likely the case even if he had not admitted this is his position, but he did.
(You had accused *me* of “tarnishing” him with “innuendo,” when I had not even mentioned the man. Yet it turns out, he totally *IS* pro military intervention, so OF COURSE he’s not happy with an anti-war group like Stop the War.
Do all these critics of SthW, Gill, consider someone not to be “anti-Assad” if they oppose a NFZ? Are these critics really only accusing that group of not working with those who support military intervention? The evidence sure strongly points in that direction.)
So Gil, I flatly do not believe any of the shit you’ve been spewing about the Stop the War Coalition. As I suspected, the ranting against it is overwhelmingly from those who are “anti-war” by being in favor of war — a NFZ in Syria.
Any reasonable person reading what Tachell suggests know that it is in no way in favor of a war. The war is already taking place and as Tachell points outs 1000’s of civilians are dying.
I don’t care what you believe. Quite frankly you have demonstrated time and time again that you are concerned more with politics then human rights and appear to have invented some cognitive distortions that allow you to believe it is the other way around.
I think the most honest you have been is when you fantasized about being a 6 year old pulling the wings off flies.
Tatchell has an impressive record at championing human rights. you and most of those you idolize only have an impressive record at flapping your gums.
Ok. This gets added to my “Gil” bookmark list of your inanities. Now, according to you, a person who wants a NFZ which would necessarily entail enforcement with boots on the ground and shooting shit down — and which would have to also be against Russia, thus flirting with WWIII– is not actually advocating for “war” action.
That’s how you regularly “reason.” Shit like this. Once again, you’ve shown the (vast majority) of smart and savvy readers here what a dishonest imbecile you are.
Really Gil, very shortly I’m adding you to my ignore list, and will only state that I do not substantively reply to you, — and will link readers to some 6-8 examples of your idiocy to demonstrate why. It’s a waste of time to continue to engage someone so either dishonest or stoopid.
Gil evades that he made an unsupportable claim
Gil, no one needs to guess at what yor “complaint” was, because you stated it quite explicitly: “Oh please Gert the [Stop the War Coalition] have proven they only care about Muslims when it fits in with their political agenda. They famously kept Syrians who had a point of view different then their own from speaking at a conference on the situation in Syria.”
Your sole point of evidence was an obscure blog claiming this happened on a particular Monday night after a debate, during Q&A from the floor; then you added an MP mentioning it in a newspaper interview.
That is, you are indicting a well-known anti-war organization as not good, claiming it doesn’t really care about Muslims, because of of this purported Q&A session when some people allegedly were not allowed to ask questions.
That’s it. That was the basis for your indictment of the organization.
I asked you if that was a reasonable position, and you declined to address that.
Well then Gil, and by parity of reasoning, you must really think Zionists are utterly vile, for the reasons I set forth here. Taking your standards, there can be no other conclusion.
Oh and Gil, I’m waiting for you to address this:
Why do you indict the organization for not engaging activities that, by all appearances, are not within the scope of their mission? Do you also denounce anti-war activists for not promoting, say, breast cancer screening and awareness?
As the letter points out they have no problem having pro Assad speakers but balk at having other Syrian voices heard.
Your excuses concerning their mission are just that excuses. It is clear their only interest in Syrian human rights depend on who they can blame.
That’s grossly unreasonable. The organization’s Mission Statement cannot sensibly be considered an “excuse” for a situation that could not have been foreseen when it was adopted.
No, Gil. Stop the War is organized for a defined purpose and has been for some fifteen years. You and others are demanding that it exceed it’s mission. To call pointing out you are asking it to exceed it’s mission an “excuse” is not the standard of anyone reasonable. It is, in fact, unserious.
So sponsoring PRO Assad speakers is within their mission but having anti Assad speakers is not?
typical double standards.
After our exchange over the weekend, the one where you admitted to being a liar could not back up your accusations about me and revealed your sadistic fantasies about torturing small beings, you vowed not to engage with me. You were incapable of sticking to your word even for two days. Do me a favor and try again. Thanks.
Nope, neither of those are. But people believing both or neither could be, depending on what their position on war is. It’s an anti-war organization, and the metric for being a part of it is to be opposed to Western — specifically British — war-making.
People can hold any extraneous positions they wish — they could think Mussolini had his good points or that Mother Teresa was a whore — but only if they oppose the UK intervening in Syria, are they within SthW’s mission as has been drafted for 15 years.
for the third or fourth time.
We write as previous strong supporters of the Stop the War Coalition and applaud its mobilisation against the disastrous UK and US attack on Iraq. Sadly, since then, on the issue of Syria, StWC has lost its moral compass and authority (Green MP Caroline Lucas steps down from Stop the War Coalition role, 8 December). Stop the War has failed to organise or support protests against the Assad dictatorship and the regime’s massacre of peaceful democracy protesters in 2011 – and since. Nor has it shown solidarity with the non-violent Syrian civil society movements for democracy and human rights and with the millions of innocent civilians killed, wounded and displaced by Assad’s barrel bombs and torture chambers. It portrays Isis as the main threat to Syrians, despite Assad killing at least six times more civilians.
StWC has repeatedly refused to have anti-Assad Syrian democrats and leftwingers on its platforms at events where Syria is being discussed; whereas it has offered a platform to pro-Assad speakers such as Issa Chaer and Mother Agnes. Moreover, StWC intervened to stop a Syrian Solidarity UK speaker from addressing the Migrant Lives Matter rally in London in April. It has one-sidedly failed to support demonstrations against the escalating Russian, Iranian and Hezbollah military interventions in Syria.
As well as systematically ignoring war crimes committed by the Assad regime, StWC often misrepresents the opposition to Assad as being largely composed of jihadi extremists and agents of imperialism; marginalising the non-violent, secular, democratic, local community and non-aligned opposition to his tyranny. It also misrepresents the call by Syrian civil society organisations for civilian safe havens and humanitarian corridors; claiming they are calls for western bombing, when they are actually bids to stop Assad’s bombs and save lives. We urge StWC to take on board these constructive criticisms and change its stance to support the Syrian people’s struggle against the war being inflicted on them by both Isis and Assad.
Abdulaziz Almashi Syria Solidarity UK
Peter Tatchell human rights campaigner
Yasmine Nahlawi Rethink Rebuild
Dr Rupert Read University of East Anglia
Dr Amer Masri Scotland4Syria
Darren Johnson Green party London assembly member
Zaki Kaf Al-Ghazal Syrian Association of Yorkshire
Dr M. Alhadj Ali Syrian Welsh Society
Andy Wilson Founder, Reservists Against The War
Muzna Al-Naib Syria Solidarity UK
Dr Odai Al-Zoubi Syrian exile and journalist
Shamira A Meghani scholar
Mark Boothroyd Syria Solidarity UK
Ayob Rahmani & Sattar Rahmani International Alliance in Support of Workers in Iran
Javaad Alipoor Iranian socialist activist
Sam Charles Hamad writer
John Game independent researcher
Again you repeatedly show your hypocrisy Mona not only by your politics over human rights agenda but also by screaming about whatboutery and then doing to just that as your defence. I usually post too funny but too pathetic seems far more apropos now.
Huh? Repeating all of that does not show the critics are indicting SthW for failing to do anything that is within their mission. Repetition, Gil, does not resolve a deficiency in an argument.
And I don’t know where you are getting this “whataboutery” accusation from. I haven’t said or implied you shouldn’t be concerned with Syria, or crticial of SthW, because “whataboutX.” You certainly are free to criticize any group you like, but then I might show you how the basis of your criticism works when applied to groups you like. I’m not surprised you find that unpleasant and objectionable. ;)
Your story about Max and the Zionist wasn’t whataboutery? Your asking whether zionists are even worse is not whataboutery ?
Jaysus, Gil, I’ve had to instruct you in the forms of fallacies before, and I swear you need basic REMEDIATION. Whataboutery is this: “Why are you concerned with X when you say nothing about Y and Y is also bad , and you are involved in bad Y, and it’s so, so bad… so shut up about X, because of all your hypocrisy about Y.”
I’m not doing that. At all. No, Gil, rant all you like abut Stop the War. I’ve not remotely hinted you shouldn’t merely because you are not concerned with [fill in the blank with anything else].
‘
‘No, Gil: The issue here is your standards, which I shall now expect you to uniformly apply.
What you can expect is that henceforward I will be announcing that you necessarily denounce Zionism. And why will I be doing that, Gil? Not because you should be concerned with it instead of with something else., No , Gil, I will be applying your standard, which I learned in this thread, for when a group or movement is awful.
Vladimir Putin is suddenly morphing into a humanitarian. According to al-Jazeera (this morning):
“…….Russian President Vladimir Putin has offered a new humanitarian pause in Syria’s Aleppo, urging opposition fighters to use it to leave the besieged eastern districts………Putin ordered that the aid corridors – which Russia had opened earlier – also be open on Friday, for longer hours, from 9am to 7pm, along with two new exit routes for the fighters to leave eastern Aleppo……..The statement said the exits will be open on Friday for both civilians and rebels “in order to prevent a senseless loss of life”…….”
The international campaign threatening to charge Russia with war crimes clearly is influencing Putin’s delay in bombing East Aleppo. This development makes Jonathan Freedland’s criticism of Stop the War Coalition valid. The Stop the War Coalition refuses to stage a protest at the Russian embassy against Russian war crimes (like repeatedly bombing hospitals and targeting civilians – and even an aid convoy). Guardian columnist, Jonathan Freedland, writes about the hypocrisy of the Stop the War Coalition (“If they really wanted to Stop the War in Syria, they’d target Russia”, 10-14-2016):
“……..Pity the luckless children of Aleppo. If only the bombs raining down on them, killing their parents, maiming their friends, destroying their hospitals – if only those bombs were British or, better still, American.………. they’d say, they could not bear to see another child killed in Aleppo……..Their fate is to be terrorised by the wrong kind of bombs, the ones dropped by Bashar al-Assad and Vladimir Putin. As such, they do not qualify for the activist sympathy of the movement that calls itself the Stop the War Coalition……….They [StWC] insist they can only influence western nations, that a protest outside the Russian embassy wouldn’t make a “blind bit of difference”. But how can they be so sure? We know Putin cares about his international standing…….” my insert in brackets
The STWC is a far left, hypocritical anti-western organization. It is a fairly clear example of “political motivation” versus “humanitarian motivation” – one of the defining characteristic of the radical left.
Gil’s metrics for what makes an organization awful would indict Zionism
Gil has insisted — and won’t back down from — the claim that a British anti-war organization is terrible — that it doesn’t care about Muslims — because on one Monday night it purportedly did not allow some pro-intervention Syrians to ask questions from the floor after a debate. Well, from my side of the fence such a standard seems downright quaint.
On my side, where we advocate for Palestinians, and for BDS, death threats and censorship against us are rather common. Tonight, I ran across a Zionist man lamenting how well Max Blumethal does in a debate with a Jewish Canadian woman, Professor Mira Sucharov.
At the very outset of his remarks, Max tells how the Canadian Jewish community overwhelmingly refused to let the debate be advertised in Jewish spaces. Prof Sucharov could not even advertise it at her synagogue, because Max Blumenthal’s name was on the bill.
Max isn’t alone in being threatened with bodily harm and death if he doesn’t shut up. It’s very common for men and women of any prominence who take the positions he does. So really, Gil’s exquisitely sensitive standards for denouncing an entire organization would seem, at best, misguided. Unless he thinks Zionism is properly indicted for the things I just described here?
In any event, one can see why the Zionist fellow I ran across was so disturbed at how poorly his side did during this one hour debate. Max is simply a powerhouse of fact and moral reasoning.
Excuse me. Max and Mira’s debate is nearly two hours long, not one.
Face it Mona, again you proven wrong. The complaints was that politics was put over human rights. Specific examples were given and individuals with long HR records were given. You at first tried to imply this event was only “supposedly” this was proven wrong so you went after the accusers and implied the supported war, when given evidence to the contrary your agument comes down to an supposed story about a zionist. Deflection? Whataboutrey?
People often wonder way those who really care about human rights like a Peter T appear to acually stand for morality, while others who just care for politics are so transparently without moality at all. To them I say well isnt it obvious.
Gil, Gil, we run into this problem with you in literally ever interaction. You simply cannot reason properly.
Gil, a person cannot be “proven wrong” when qualifying a claim with the word “supposedly.” A caveat is not a denial, Gil. It basically means: “May, maybe not, can you show me?” One does not accept a claim without sufficient evidence, Gil, THAT is when one is frequently “wrong.”
You have this rather obsessive compulsion to speak in terms of my being “wrong” and to constantly declare yourself as having proven me so. That’s….weird. Weirder still for your usually being, ironically, “wrong” about that. LOL
No. I didn’t “go after” anyone.” I observed there is a large, obvious phenomenon — that conforms to this business with SthW — also going on on this side of the pond, to wit: those who support Western intervention in Syria say nasty things about those who do not.
As I suspect when the nastiness about Syria emanates from leftist quarters here, it is likely the same reason over there. Why would that be an unreasonable thing to assume? It’s been true of this same ideological split in the U.S., so why not the UK as well?
@GilG
The Guardian piece you linked to about the Stop the War coalition and those who disapprove of it’s position on Syria is entirely of a piece with what I wrote of here.
Of course, anything recent involving arguments on the left in the UK almost invariably is wound up in Labour’s hissy fits over Jeremy Corbyn’s tenacious popularity, and I suspected this attack on SthW had a lot of overlap there. And sure enough, founding member of SthW, Tariq Ali writes:
There’s a similar phenomenon going on on this side of the pond. An unusual number of leftists support military intervention in Syria, and they concoct truly vicious accusations against those who don’t. It’s really been disgusting. It’s quite obvious the Graun piece re: Stop the War is simply the Brit version of this same meritless nastiness.
First of all the letter published in the Guardian to which I linked documents my claim which you called “supposed” and not well known.
Secondly how about addressing the claims of the letter with counter facts or arguments. Your quote from Ali doesn’t address the specific claim I made nor does it even apply to the people who signed the letter none of whom are Labor MP’s and Caroline Lucas to whom I’m guessing Ali is referring to as the prominent Green hardly attacked StWC she merely stated she disagreed with it for the reasons I stated in my first post. She also specifically stated she “shared the group’s opposition to the bombing of Syria”
Also tell me where you have any evidence that Peter Tatchell or Caroline Lucas has called for military intervention. If there is any “meritless nastiness” it seems it’s your attempt at tarnishing long time human rights activists with innuendo.
Er, it does? You had said: “They famously kept Syrians who had a point of view different then their own from speaking at a conference on the situation in Syria,” and linked to an obscure blog talking about questions from the floor that weren’t taken at a particular event identified as “a panel event on Monday evening.” I didn’t see anything about that in the Graun letter. [shrug]
Such as?
Why?
That’s unreasonable; darn near deranged. I’ve said not a word, much less a vitriolic one, about those two people or anyone else you’ve mentioned.
Such as Stop the War has failed to organise or support protests against the Assad dictatorship and the regime’s massacre of peaceful democracy protesters in 2011 – and since. Nor has it shown solidarity with the non-violent Syrian civil society movements for democracy and human rights and with the millions of innocent civilians killed, wounded and displaced by Assad’s barrel bombs and torture chambers. It portrays Isis as the main threat to Syrians, despite Assad killing at least six times more civilians.
StWC has repeatedly refused to have anti-Assad Syrian democrats and leftwingers on its platforms at events where Syria is being discussed; whereas it has offered a platform to pro-Assad speakers such as Issa Chaer and Mother Agnes. Moreover, StWC intervened to stop a Syrian Solidarity UK speaker from addressing the Migrant Lives Matter rally in London in April. It has one-sidedly failed to support demonstrations against the escalating Russian, Iranian and Hezbollah military interventions in Syria.
As well as systematically ignoring war crimes committed by the Assad regime, StWC often misrepresents the opposition to Assad as being largely composed of jihadi extremists and agents of imperialism; marginalising the non-violent, secular, democratic, local community and non-aligned opposition to his tyranny. It also misrepresents the call by Syrian civil society organisations for civilian safe havens and humanitarian corridors; claiming they are calls for western bombing, when they are actually bids to stop Assad’s bombs and save lives. We urge StWC to take on board these constructive criticisms and change its stance to support the Syrian people’s struggle against the war being inflicted on them by both Isis and Assad.
From the Caroline Lucas article : “She was also concerned that some Syrian voices were not given an opportunity to speak at a recent meeting organised by the StWC in parliament. StWC has played an important role in building the anti-war movement in Britain, and Caroline will continue to work in support of peace.”
Not sure why you would have trouble finding either of those.
You wrote “There’s a similar phenomenon going on on this side of the pond. An unusual number of leftists support military intervention in Syria, and they concoct truly vicious accusations against those who don’t. ”
How can it be similar if you admit they don’t support the war?
I believe you just get flummoxed by those who put human rights above politics.
Ok, let’s just take the first one:
Why should SthW have done that? Can you cite a part of their Mission Statement or Constitution that announces it is organized for such a purpose?
This is the entry at their site’s About page:
How, then, is SthW remiss for not engaging in opposition to events which are not part of the West’s “war on terror,” and specifically also not part of ” the British establishment’s disastrous addiction to war and its squandering of public resources on militarism?”
And Gil, what does this mean?
Me: “There’s a similar phenomenon going on on this side of the pond. An unusual number of leftists support military intervention in Syria, and they concoct truly vicious accusations against those who don’t. ”
You: “How can it be similar if you admit they don’t support the war?”
What? If I admit who doesn’t support what war?!
Gil, I think you are assuming only individuals who come right and and say: “The U.S. should deploy troops to enforce a No Fly Zone and/or otherwise militarily intervene in Syria” support military intervention. I most emphatically do not share this assumption.
For example, I don’t think Maz Hussain has made any such announcement, but I strongly suspect he totally supports military intervention by the U.S. in Syria. I suspect that of quite a few people who have not explicitly said so. Especially when they can be seen spewing vile invective at or about those who oppose intervention, e.g., Maz.
Let’s keep in mind, Gil, you cited this one event at which some blog says some pro-interventionist Syrians were not allowed to ask questions at a SthW debate — from the floor, afterward — as support for this statement of yours: “Oh please Gert the StWC have proven they only care about Muslims when it fits in with their political agenda.”
Do you really think that is a fair and reasonable position?
again read the letter, it makes many more claims than that.
At least you are now admitting an event concerning Syria hosted by the StWC where actual Syrians were not allowed to speak did take place.
Nope.
Why? Does a reference to a Monday night event at which some Syrians were not allowed to ask questions from the floor magically show up after reading it, like, the third time or something?
The letter mentions Syrians not being allowed to speak. the Caroline Lucas article mentions the specific event in question.
What it says is: “StWC has repeatedly refused to have anti-Assad Syrian democrats and leftwingers on its platforms at events where Syria is being discussed; whereas it has offered a platform to pro-Assad speakers such as Issa Chaer and Mother Agnes. Moreover, StWC intervened to stop a Syrian Solidarity UK speaker from addressing the Migrant Lives Matter rally in London in April.”
Well Gil, I did some googling, and I found absolutely nothing that would support Issa Chaer’s being “pro-Assad.” I’ve previously heard similar things about this nun, Mother Agnes (one of the co-founders of this site, Jeremy Scahill, has said something along those lines some years ago; I’ve been waiting for evidence from him on that after his brief remark, but he went silent about it). Nor did I find any support for the notion that SthW weeds out anti-war activists who are “anti-Assad.”
So, in the absence of any such evidence, I remain strongly inclined to think this is all the same as what I’m seeing over here in the U.S. It’s about those who want military intervention v. those who do not. (With the added twist in the UK that anti-Corbyn asshaterery is also in the mix.)
Now, perhaps you can provide the evidence I could not locate. But until then, I decline to accept that SthW does, in fact, refuse to let those who are merely “anti-Assad” speak at their events. Certainly I see no evidence that SthW has some secret, nefarious “political positions” that equate with their not really caring about Muslims, as you accused them of in your statement to Gert.
ContinuousDeception
Mona writes:
“…….Israel also supports al Qaeda in Syria. Basically, any group that keeps the region fractured and bloody; Israel deems ongoing chaos and carnage in Syria as in its interests. As Rania Khalek wrote…..”
It is not that Israel “supports” al-Qaeda and ISIS; they have mutual interests in undermining the Assad regime. Israel, of course, wants to undercut the reach and regional power of a nuclear Iran (as do the Saudis, Qatar etc.). Additionally, the Syrians and Israelis have a long history of warfare. Animosity between Syria and Israel dates back to Israel’s independence in 1948 when Syria along with five more Arab armies attacked the nascent Jewish state. The Syrians also attacked the Jewish State in 1967 and 1973. They fought on Lebanese soil between 1982 and 1984. In all the wars, Syria suffered humiliating defeats. As a result, Israel occupies a large chunk of Syrian land confiscated during the Six Days War in 1967 (Golan Heights). Israel returned land to Egypt won in 1967 after a peace agreement was signed by Anwar Sadat, but Syria has never been willing to make peace with Israel. Thus, the land remains in Israel’s hands (where it should stay in my opinion).
In addition to a long history of warfare between the two countries, they have also engaged in numerous border skirmishes over the years increasing tensions. Furthermore, Syria not only arms Hezbollah, but allows the routing of Iranian arms to Hezbollah through Syria – thus Syria supports a proxy terror war against Israel much like Iran. The Hamas “embassy” was located in Damascus only moving after the Syrian “civil” war began in 2011. Ties between Assad and Hamas deteriorated because Hamas supported the rebel effort. Hamas has also been weakened by the Syrian civil war (another “benefit” of the war against Assad the murderer). During the civil war in Syria, Israel has bombed weapons depots allegedly meant for Hezbollah.
The proxy/civil war in Syria has weakened the Iranian axis of evil, and the ability for Assad to wage a proxy war against Israel. Arming Hezbollah has become more difficult. Hamas has become more isolated. For all of these reasons, the destabilization and fracturing of Syria is supported by Israel, but Israel does NOT support ISIS or al-Qaeda (or any Islamists). However, they do have mutual geopolitical “interests” in the war in Syria although anything but shared goals. For Israel, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, the US (at least originally) etc. removing Assad is about undermining the growing regional power and threat to regional stability of Iran. The fact that Hezbollah, Iran and Russia are all fighting to preserve the Assad regime indicates the importance of the proxy war to outside interests.
READERS: Please Ignore Craig Summers.
He is an explicitly pro-torture, authoritarian, fanatically Zionist, jingoistic Republican and Trump voter (usually) who posts vast walls of dense (sic), endless text. I’ve been ignoring him 95% of the time since last spring, at the request of multiple readers, and doing that does, indeed, reduce the amount of text-plastering he does. (He gets deleted if he spews too much that’s not a legitimate reply.)
Ignore him, please. The thread will be healthier if you do.
Odd, common trope: “leave ISIS alone”
As I’ve documented several times below, Israel apologists overwhelmingly do not want ISIS — which has spread from Iraq — destroyed in Syria; they would prefer ISIS ruling in Syria over Assad remaining in power. But they are not the only ones, and theirs not the only reasons some take this view.
Basically, some see ISIS as “fixing” what the United States and its allies broke by invading and grossly destabilizing Iraq. A month ago Middle Eastern analyst, Ramzy Mardini, wrote in NYT: Don’t Defeat ISIS, Yet
Clearly, and as many have angrily pointed out, those who successfully pushed for the U.S. invasion of Iraq were horribly wrong while those predicting a godawful mess have been entirely vindicated. The mess is so severe that sober people are writing that the ISIS the chaos gave birth to also dictates letting ISIS be.
Yet, some would insist the U.S. must now intervene in Syria. There’s no basis in history to think that would be helpful to the people of Syria, and much to argue it would be a debacle.
@Gert
Oh please Gert the StWC have proven they only care about Muslims when it fits in with their political agenda. They famously kept Syrians who had a point of view different then their own from speaking at a conference on the situation in Syria.
https://leftfootforward.org/2015/11/stop-the-war-refuse-to-listen-to-syrians-during-debate-on-syria/
not surprised to see an StWC member trying the same tactics here. Unfortunately for you Gert you don’t get to silence voices with opinions different than yours on TI.
1. That’s a dated post from an obscure blog, and
2. It only pertains to questions afterward from the floor.
3. I see no evidence supporting your employment of the word “famously” for this supposed act of preventing Syrians from speaking. I read a very great deal on these topics, and follow many activists Arabs on Twitter — including a number from the UK — and this is the first I’ve heard of it. Certainly a posting form Some Guy’s blog doesn’t suggest this alleged incident is widely heralded.
4. I’ve seen no evidence that Gert is trying, in any way, to “silence” anyone’s “voice.”
I’m assuming since you read a great deal on these topics you know who Peter Tatchell is. Here is a letter to the Guardian that he along with many Syrian activists signed.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/09/stop-the-war-faces-a-coalition-of-critics
Also Caroline Lucus a Green Party MP and former VP of StWC resigned as a Patron of StWC at least partially because of her concern ” that some Syrian voices were not given an opportunity to speak at a recent meeting organised by the StWC in parliament. ”
famous enough for you?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/09/stop-the-war-faces-a-coalition-of-critics
Mona writes:
“………By contrast, trying to learn the nationalistic, tribal, geo-political and other factions and interests all in play vis-a-vis the war [in Syria] is a huge, complex project…..”
No one simplifies the geopolitical complexities of the Middle East like Greenwald (and therefore you Mona). According to the far left narrative, western policies including our support for Israel drive terrorism. Greenwald seemingly just dismisses sectarian and ethnic hatred/violence, the regional battle for supremacy between Iran and Saudi Arabia (Middle East), the fight against authoritarian rule and the drive for power (for example, the return of the Caliphate), globalization, religious influences/radicalization (Wahhabism) and other reasons. The preferred narrative is simplified to it’s our fault.
How many times has Greenwald pointed out that the US has bombed seven predominantly Muslim countries during the Obama administration (in nearly eight years)? Drone attacks have killed hundreds of innocent Muslims. When Obama became President, the US was still in Iraq killing Muslims (for three more years). The American military is STILL in Afghanistan killing Muslims. The US STILL provides unconditional support for Israel. Three wars were fought by Israel against Hamas during the Obama administration killing thousands of Muslims including as many as 1000 Muslim children (the last in 2014). The US still supports the same dictators providing weapons and technology to Middle East despots. Europe has also supported the US in Afghanistan, Libya, partially in Iraq and has supported Israel. In short, very little has changed in US and European policy since 911. In fact, the Global War on Terror has made our policies even more intrusive into the Muslim world. The 2004 Pentagon-commissioned report summarized:
“…….“Muslims do not ‘hate our freedom,’ but rather, they hate our policies.”……“American direct intervention in the Muslim world”; our “one-sided support in favor of Israel”; support for Islamic tyrannies in places like Egypt and Saudi Arabia; and, most of all, “the American occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan.”…..”
Greenwald has summed up the US connection to “terrorism” on numerous occasions:
“….spending decades bombing, invading, occupying, droning, interfering in, imposing tyranny on, and creating lawless prisons in other countries generates intense anti-American and anti-western rage (for obvious reasons) and ensures that those western nations will be attacked as well…..”
Bin Laden stated:
“…….whoever has killed our civilians, then we have the right to kill theirs…….”
According to Greenwald (and therefore Mona) and Bin Laden, Muslims (Arabs especially) are justified in martyring themselves to kill Americans and Europeans because of our racist and violent policies of killing Muslims (Greenwald):
“….I’m most certainly not suggesting that anyone who supports Awlaki’s killing is driven by racism or anti-Muslim bigotry. I am suggesting that the belief that Muslims are somehow less American, or even less human, is widespread….”
Yet despite all of the Muslim-killing by the US (west) over the past fifteen years, Arab youth when asked why Muslims joined ISIS rejected the main conclusions of the 2004 Pentagon-commissioned report and rejected the often-stated reasons by Greenwald for the causes of terrorism (Arab Youth Survey, 2015). The number one reason given in the poll was the unemployment picture followed by superiority of religious views (Sunnis) and third by sectarian tensions throughout the region. The imposition of western values on the Arab world came in number four (i.e., rejection of globalization). The causes for youth joining ISIS are complex, but far down the list is US support for Israel and our invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan. According to the survey authors:
“……What drives young people to join a brutal, ultra-radical group like Daesh? Since its recent rise in Syria, and Iraqin 2013, the group declared war primarily on fellow Muslims.…..”
Exactly, Islamic terrorists like ISIS dominantly kill other Muslims. A recent article by Murtaza Hussain headlined that “U.S. MILITARY OPERATIONS ARE BIGGEST MOTIVATION FOR HOMEGROWN TERRORISTS, FBI STUDY FINDS”. In 18% of homegrown terrorist cases, US policies were cited as the primary motivating factor. That is only one in five homegrown terrorist cases – less than 20%. In addition, over 5000 Muslims left Europe to join ISIS i.e., to primarily kill Muslims. Why did so many European Muslims bitter because of US and western policies of killing Muslims leave to join ISIS – to kill mainly Muslims? Charlie Hebdo was attacked not because of our foreign policy, but because radical Islamists do hate our freedoms. To suggest that Islamic terrorism is a response to western policies is at best a simplification of the complex issues in the Middle East (in particular), but at worst is just propaganda promoted in service to the terrorists primarily motivated by subjugating fellow Muslims under sharia law in an anti-democratic, racist state(s) (Boko Haram, al-Qeada, al-Shabaab etc.). In fact, no one commits more acts of terrorism in the world today than Sunni Muslims (including the far left coddled al-Qaeda), and no one is at the receiving end of these brutal attacks more than Muslims. Islamic extremism is a world-wide movement to gain power, not revenge against US policies.
READERS: Please Ignore Craig Summers.
He is an explicitly pro-torture, authoritarian, fanatically Zionist, jingoistic Republican and Trump voter (usually) who posts vast walls of dense (sic), endless text. I’ve been ignoring him 95% of the time since last spring, at the request of multiple readers, and doing that does, indeed, reduce the amount of text-plastering he does. (He gets deleted if he spews too much that’s not a legitimate reply.)
Ignore him, please. The thread will be healthier if you do.
Please don’t tell us who to ignore . Actually I think we’re all wondering when you and Craig are getting married.
Brooklyn, November 1, “Syria and the Left”
Murtaza Hussain and Max Blumenthal are included on a panel discussing that topic from 7-9 p.m. at Verso Books.
I’d love to be there, but alas no longer live in NY. I sure hope this is recorded.
Twitter:
the ones who managed to flee and were able to somehow reach their desired destinations are the lucky ones even if they live in limbo in some refugee camp somewhere waiting for something to happen.
// __ A boat carrying 500 refugees sunk at sea. The story of two survivors
http://www.ted.com/talks/melissa_fleming_a_boat_carrying_500_refugees_sunk_at_sea_the_story_of_two_survivors
~
All we self-righteous, “freedom-loving” Westerners need is some “let’s feel good about it” news like Malala Yousafzai being offered the Nobel Peace Prize or Shyima “Hall” the U.S. citizenship, to clear our consciousness past any kind of moral thought or feelings and go back to watch TV and gossip about celebrities or some b#llsh!t about royal families.
~
RCL
One must ask a rhetorical question: Why is ISIS not attacking Israel and why Israel is not attacking them? Is there a communication link between both?
Below, I partially addressed that question, here.
See also, my comment here.
Regrettably, this thread has degenerated into a contest between wild assertions and attempts to rationally respond to wild assertions.
Perhaps it is obvious, but may be worth repeating, that those who make wild assertions in the face of other evidence are often either: a) incapable of rationally checking their assertions, or b) they find evidence to be an inconvenient annoyance because it contradicts their view.
There is a mountain of evidence implicating many actors. In particular, US and allies, including Saudis, Qataris, Turks, Brits, and others were on a mission for soft regime change. That is neither left or right, it does not excuse Assad, or the Russians – it simply exists as evidence.
I repeat — the victims are the Syrian people!
Yes. I’ve been trying in the past month or so to gain a reasonably solid understanding of the various factions active in the Syrian war and the debate over it. Before that, my greatest activity on the matter was to agitate for the acceptance of refugees, and denunciation of racist propaganda spewed against these desperate people. (So many of the films and videos of these fleeing refugees were enough to crush one’s soul.)
The need to accept refugees is a straightforward moral imperative, not a complicated matter. By contrast, trying to learn the nationalistic, tribal, geo-political and other factions and interests all in play vis-a-vis the war is a huge, complex project.
The Syrian people can get lost in trying to discuss all of that.
Why “in particular” the US and allies ? Why aren’t Russia, Iran and Hezbollah just as culpable instead of just not being excused?
They aren’t intent on regime change, but there is much evidence the Western powers are.
They are interested in propping up THEIR dictator, the same way the US props up the regime in SA.
Yes, but that’s not the issue for us Americans; the issue is what should the U.S. do or not do in Syria. Unless we were funding or otherwise aiding or supporting him, the U.S. has no control over what Assad did or didn’t do. But it certainly has control over things like arming people in the region, including anyone fighting to overthrow Assad, and bombing. That’s where the choices are for us, and I for one am strongly opposed to any sort of imperialist or colonialist actions, which include aiding anyone in this conflict who’s trying to overthrow Assad.
Someone plz explain why Israel prefers ISIS to Assad beyond them not wanting the superpowers to leave the region.
There were internet (what I thought were) crackpots claiming that Mossad or Israel had some involvement in ISIS; previously dismissed this as bs. Apparently then there is some basis in reality for this view?!
Now it’s been said, heard, or read that ISIS were essentially Baathists; that makes sense given the ease they set up bureaucracy for caliphate… but now this Israeli stuff has thrown for a loop.
Plz plz someone tie this together or explain.
I’ve seen scattered references to Mossad’s assisting ISIS in Syria, and I wouldn’t put it past them. But until I see it in a reliable source I’m not going to credit such reports.
Israel also supports al Qaeda in Syria. Basically, any group that keeps the region fractured and bloody; Israel deems ongoing chaos and carnage in Syria as in its interests. As Rania Khalek wrote, my emphasis:
This all explains much of the argumentation here and elsewhere from the fanatical Zionists.
READERS: Please Ignore Craig Summers.
He is an explicitly pro-torture, authoritarian, fanatically Zionist, jingoistic Republican and Trump voter (usually) who posts vast walls of dense (sic), endless text. I’ve been ignoring him 95% of the time since last spring, at the request of multiple readers, and doing that does, indeed, reduce the amount of text-plastering he does. (He gets deleted if he spews too much that’s not a legitimate reply.)
Ignore him, please. The thread will be healthier if you do.
My documented sub-thread demonstrating what drives Zionists support for ISIS in Syria (in strong preference to Bashar al-Assad) starts here. This cohort includes Craig Summers but is not remotely limited to him.
No one targets the messenger like -Mona-.
What law school did you get that from?
You shoot down people the way Israel shoots down BDS.
You are an antisemitic crank. (A real antisemite, not the faux kind the Israel apologists rant about.) In general, I substantively ignore you, and shall do so here.
This thread has unsurprisingly devolved to an attack on Zionism and Israel. Jewish self-determination is fanatically opposed by the radical left. Some opposed to Jewish self-determination are so consumed by the IP conflict that they may know very little about other far more deadly conflicts even when their own country is involved (Mona at the beginning of the White Helmet thread by Murtaza Hussain where her name comes up 392 times):
“…….Let me preface this by saying I’m agnostic on what to do vis-a-vis Syria because I know too little, and what I do know is confusing……”
The benefactors of the IP fanatics, of course, are the Palestinian children killed in the conflict, each one cataloged and their picture detailed on blogs or linked for political reasons – while other conflicts where far more children are dying are simply ignored – Syria being a classic case in point (see the below the line commentary in article by Murtaza Hussain “Syria’s White Helmets Risk Everything to Save the Victims of Airstrikes”).
Mona’s omits a citation for her quoted attack on (liberal) Jonathan Freedland – and for good reason. Ben White is a virulent anti-Zionist – very much a classic single issue, IP obsessed writer that has made a career from the IP conflict. He is well versed in the language of the far left used to delegitimize Israel and Jewish self-determination. Mona didn’t accidentally omit his name. This was a disingenuous attempt to hide a well-known opposition figure to a Jewish state and Jewish self-determination (an ideological twin of Mona). Some of his quotes follow lifted from UK Media Watch:
“………..There was a time when similar headlines appeared in Western newspapers – when South Africa’s apartheid regime also worried over birth rates, demography, and the risk that equality could mean ‘national suicide’…. This is now the refrain of Zionists, both extremist and liberal, and like in South Africa, it leaves the same bitter taste in the mouth.……….. [Palestinians want] a future based on a genuine co-existence of equals, rather than ethno-religious supremacy and segregation…… the Holocaust acts as a standard for human depravity set so high, that any treatment of the Palestinians is justifiable, as long as it falls short of what was experienced by the Jews in Nazi Europe.…… I was somewhat startled by this, since I do not consider myself an anti-Semite, yet I can also understand why some are. There are, in fact, a number of reasons. One is the state of Israel, its ideology of racial supremacy and its subsequent crimes committed against the Palestinians…….. Finally, interwoven with the idea of a Jewish “return” and a denial of relevant international law is a deep anti-Arab racism…….. The two-state solution may be the only game in town, but there is no evidence that Obama can – or wants to – prevent it being a slogan masking apartheid.…….. “‘Pure’ Zionism, that is Zionism at its theoretical roots that expressed itself at various moments in pre- and post-state history, differs from standard definitions of colonialism in that it seeks not the exploitation of the indigenous population but their removal or extermination………”
Radical leftists are not liberal by any stretch of the imagination. Indeed, they are quite bigoted. They are anti-American and anti-Israel political activists that couch their faux support for human rights (Palestinians) in their fanatical opposition to the Jewish state and Jewish self-determination.
Will read this book. An important bit seems missing from your review, though. According to a Nobel price laureate, as reported by The Guardian, in 2012 the West “ignored Russian offer to have Assad step aside” https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/15/west-ignored-russian-offer-in-2012-to-have-syrias-assad-step-aside.
Russia offered a simple, three points plan “which included a proposal for Assad to cede power at some point after peace talks had started between the regime and the opposition.” The offer was dismissed and the war, the massacres, the destruction went on. The “terror” was our choice, not Putin’s one, not in this case.
YES, THERES defintley foreign interests involved and in charge of the syrian revolution turned civil war, it’s also a great means of selling weapons! this being said it is incredibly dishonest of you to dismiss democratically elected candidates and protests that all followed the revolt in tunisia. just today mass protests returned to morocco after greater rights were given by the king and members of the local iteration of the brotherhood did not push these protests, giving way to what can not be claimed by either political side again.
All media mostly ignores that beginning in 2006 the U.S. began working to destabilize Syria, wanting regime change, as stated in leaked diplomatic cable.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-syria-wikileaks-idUSTRE73H0E720110418
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/us-secretly-backed-syrian-opposition-groups-cables-released-by-wikileaks-show/2011/04/14/AF1p9hwD_story.html
At the beginning of the Syrian uprising, the CIA, working with Saudi Arabia, probably infiltrated weapon carrying extremists into dissident groups to foment violence, which was encouraged by the U.S. Ambassador to Syria, Robert Ford, who encouraged the dissidents to believe that the U.S. would do in Syria, what it had done in Libya.
Russia and China vetoed the necessary UN Security Council resolution so there was no basis under international law for intervention.
Though the U.S. has ignored international law in arming those rebelling against the internationally recognized government of Syria.
Russia’s action are within international law because the government of Syria asked for Russian help in protecting Syria from regime change by the U.S., Saudi Arabia and their allies.
To make such regime change respectable, Assad has been demonized, despite having the support of a majority of Syrians.
The purpose of such regime change is to appease Saudi Arabia, Qatar, other Gulf monarchies and Israel, and to install a Sunni puppet.
There is also the problem that Assad won’t permit a Qatar proposed natural gas pipeline route through Syria and onto Europe, that would cut Russia out of the European natural gas market.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/…
http://www.ecowatch.com/syria-…
To the U.S. and its allies the pain, deaths, destruction and refugees are simply necessary collateral damage, in order to fulfill its geopolitical goals.
This is basically the same analysis that was posted in the New York Times a month or so ago:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/27/world/middleeast/syria-civil-war-why-get-worse.html
Of course it is a proxy war and a big player is Turkey who provides a base of support/bivouac for anti-Assad ‘rebels’, the aim being to reconstruct the Ottoman Empire.
The author insinuates that Obama is not the aggressor because he has not pushed for (or resisted a push for) a no-fly zone.
Look at what the US has done in general in Syria as well as regarding the ‘pivot’ to Asia. The US and NATO have 400 or so military bases surrounding Russia and China.
as Russia, China and India and now Pilippines and soon Malaysia form their own version of nato, US basis will “get the boot” as in “no more boots on that ground”.
Then, the demand will be made for the US to remove those bases or face SPTO bases in mexico, central america, south america. Given the US penchant for coups murder assassinations and all manner of irresponsible corporat behavior, south of the border will quickly warm up to SPTO as china already has a proven and likened foothold in mining there.
Then there is Africa. China is way ahead there too because they treat earthlings with respect instead of adversaries to be robbed.
US foreign policy, being the shit of the planet, is destroying America. Dumb&Dumbers who run appointed positions in the US need to attend the meeting – “i called this meeting today for all department heads because i have an important message for you. YOU ARE ALL FIRED. security!” Pensions perks and bonuses, all gone. All fired. Congress? fired. Senate? fired. Pentagon? fired. CIA? fired. NSA? not sure.
Let’s make America a place worth defending, eh?
Regardless of its initial beginnings, this is a proxy war, mainly between the U.S./NATO and Russia/Iran, with the usual Sunni-Shiite conflict thrown in. Knowing the history of the area, the U.S. knowing what’s best for others, and being competent has nothing to do with any of this. I hate when analysts incorrectly conflate these issues with those of power and resources — mainly oil — which is what almost all wars are about, and certainly what they’re about in the Middle East.
You do realize that Syria has very little oil, correct?
You do understand geopolitics, right? “Oil” includes pipelines and power in the region.
Whenever Assad’s back is against the wall, Russia and Iran pitch in with more help. When the rebels retreat, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and Turkey send more fighters and weapons. If Hillary Clinton becomes commander in chief on January 20, 2017, her promise of an American-patrolled no-fly zone will lead to direct confrontation between Russian and American warplanes and draw the U.S. deeper into a war that Phillips believes Obama was right to avoid. She should read this book first.
Yes the war criminal jingo psycho should.
Of course he’s beneath you, rrheard; so what? Your arguments and links are excellent, and I enjoy reading them. And your description here was spot-on and kinda’ entertaining.
He doesn’t deserve your effort, but that doesn’t mean your posts are wasted; others are reading and thinking. So please keep rebutting his spluge as you see fit: not to change his mind, but to expose it. While you’re sharing your wisdom and knowledge, he’ll just keep making a fool of himself.
Speaking of which, it’s time for another edition of. . .
craigsummers v craigsummers
“Only a real dumbass” would do that. There’s just no question about it. He couldn’t have been more clear. It’s so easy to see what’s coming:
1) “Classified U.S. diplomatic cables show that the State Department has funneled as much as $6 million to the group since 2006 to operate the satellite channel and finance other activities inside Syria.
. . .The U.S. money for Syrian opposition figures began flowing under President George W. Bush after he effectively froze political ties with Damascus in 2005. The financial backing has continued under President Obama, even as his administration sought to rebuild relations with Assad. In January, the White House posted an ambassador to Damascus for the first time in six years.
. . . Syrian authorities “would undoubtedly view any U.S. funds going to illegal political groups as tantamount to supporting regime change,” read an April 2009 cable signed by the top-ranking U.S. diplomat in Damascus at the time. “A reassessment of current U.S.-sponsored programming that supports anti-[government] factions, both inside and outside Syria, may prove productive,” the cable said.”
– U.S. secretly backed Syrian opposition groups, cables released by WikiLeaks show, The Washington Post, April 17, 2011.[h/t to Reader]
2) Former Director of the US Defense Intelligence Agency Michael Flynn makes it clear to Mehdi Hasan that US support of radical jihadists (that would emerge as ISIL and Al Nusra) against the Syrian regime was “a willful decision” made before the anti-government protests:
“Hasan: ‘You are basically saying that even in government at the time you knew these groups were around, you saw this analysis, and you were arguing against it, but who wasn’t listening?’
Flynn: ‘I think the administration.’
Hasan: ‘So the administration turned a blind eye to your analysis?’
Flynn: ‘I don’t know that they turned a blind eye, I think it was a decision. I think it was a willful decision.’
Hasan: ‘A willful decision to support an insurgency that had Salafists, Al Qaeda and the Muslim Brotherhood?’
Flynn: ‘It was a willful decision to do what they’re doing. . .and I will tell you, it goes before 2012. I mean, when we were, when we were in Iraq and we still had decisions to be made before there was a decision to pull out of Iraq in 2011. I mean, it was very clear what we were, what we were going to face.’”
– July 29, 2015, Head to Head, Al Jazeera
3) “To undermine Iran, which is predominantly Shiite, the Bush Administration has decided, in effect, to reconfigure its priorities in the Middle East. In Lebanon, the Administration has coöperated with Saudi Arabia’s government, which is Sunni, in clandestine operations that are intended to weaken Hezbollah, the Shiite organization that is backed by Iran. The U.S. has also taken part in clandestine operations aimed at Iran and its ally Syria. A by-product of these activities has been the bolstering of Sunni extremist groups that espouse a militant vision of Islam and are hostile to America and sympathetic to Al Qaeda. [the outcome of which was predicted by the DIA before the violent crackdown on dissent by Assad]”
– The New Yorker, March 5, 2007
4) “This is a memo that describes how we’re going to take out seven countries in five years, starting with Iraq, and then Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and, finishing off, Iran.”
– General (retired) Wesley Clark, former Supreme Allied Commander of NATO, discussing plans to initiate war and “regime change” in many countries including Syria, DemocracyNow, March 2, 2007.
THAT’S A WRAP!
“A willful decision to support an insurgency that had Salafists, Al Qaeda …¨
Before supporting we shouldn ‘t forget the other stages of design and creation. There is also placement which includes transportation to the target field.
Since the thread this should be in is dead, and this one is. . . whatever:
And so on. . . Title 17 Fair Use. . .
If you are blocked by the WSJ paywall, go to news[dot]google[dot]com and follow the link from there. That should let you read the story — unless your browser is already caching WSJ cookies that give you away.
BTW, they have a warrant.
What gobsmacks me — can anyone explain why Obama would have been such an idiot as to appoint a Republican as head of the FBI? And for ten years, yet! We all know what Republicans will do or compromise for politics — anything they can. For anyone to complain about Comey now is like complaining that you picked up a rattlesnake and it bit you. I mean, what did you think???
Tribalism explains much of the schism in the left on Syria, coupled with some significant pro-intervention PR
It was maybe six-eight months ago I began noticing a few people on the antiwar left ranting about the rest of their comrades supposedly failing principle by not favoring military intervention to remove Bashar al-Assad in Syria. At first, this struck me as a minor oddity.
Then the ’16 election heated up, and the “imperative” of Hillary defeating Trump put many Western, Caucasian “leftists” into a further frenzy of support for her interventionist approach to Syria. At the same time, I began to notice a number of Arabs — both Westerners and Middle Eastern — who were also spewing the most foul garbage at and about comrades, including other Arabs, who did not support Western intervention.
It has to be tribalism: Deep nationalistic, ethnic, and religious drives must be at play in this “leftwing” conflict, except where it isn’t partisan, pro-Hillary politics. That this is so came home to me with great force yesterday, reading Emile Hokayem’s WaPo op-ed, The end of the Islamic State will make the Middle East worse, my emphasis:
The Zionists have their tribally dictated preference for ISIS vis-a-vis Syria, and I’m convinced much of the rest of the passion for intervention — and the venom, the utter foul shit directed at those who disagree — is also driven by sectarian or tribal interests. (We do, in fact, all have them, no matter how much we try to overcome them — I do, too. I just try not to let my culturally Irish-Catholic identity dictate much that I think.)
Add all of that tribal energy to the enormous public relations campaign the interventionist have been running in the West, and that explains a great deal of the utterly disgusting attacks on decent people like Rania Khalek, Ali Abunimah, Max Blumenthal, Benjamin Norton and so many others. That is, I’m saying Maz Hussain has some primal, tribal allegiance driving him to, e.g., tweet/retweet outrageous attacks on Rania Khalek.
The lesson is, as much as tribalism has long been destroying Jewish souls via Zionism, it is also corrupting many Muslims, including some who write in Western outlets. Tribalism is a toxin/.
Reactions by Mona to the war in Gaza:
“…….When they kill the child, what they’ve done to the parent is worse than killing them…….”
“…….Truth, and wounded children, reported movingly by CNN.
http://edition.cnn.com/video/standard.html?/video/world/2014/07/19/dnt-wedeman-death-comes-early-in-gaza.cnn&video_referrer=…..”
“…….Israel is blowing the heads off of babies and targeting ambulances. Israel is evil…….”
“…….Five ambulances directly hit by IDF tanks and F-16s……”
“…….This graphic picture shows the unspeakable mutilation of a dead girl child, held by her enraged father:
https://twitter.com/israelwc1/status/490738975662166016
I don’t know what to do?…..”
“…….I’m in tears, and I didn’t see that picture correctly. It’s, I believe, a policeman holding the girl……”
“……The IDF is fucking killing Gazan children…..”
Reactions to the death and destruction in Syria by Mona? Nothing to speak of. About 100 times more people have died in Syria than were killed in Gaza during Operation Protective Edge in 2014 – but nothing about the children which have been killed in Syria (despite the repeated bombing of hospitals, field clinics, an aid convoy and most recently a school by Russian or Syrian regime war planes.
Fanatical anti-Zionist politically-motivated propaganda and crocodile tears.
Boring! Theworldsonlysuperpower could do much, much better than that. Expect to see another South China Sea kind of silly theatrical performance à la “the ruling of the ‘International court’ against the Chinese ‘must’ be binding …”
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/13/world/asia/south-china-sea-hague-ruling-philippines.html
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/25/david-cameron-china-ruling-south-china-sea-the-hague-philippines
and then all of a sudden you won’t hear of it again. Now, did the Chinese get their fat rear ends out of the even fatter South China Sea? How funny to see USG and allies talking about “legality”, “sovereignty”, “International courts” …
Russians don’t talk. They do! It is gringos the ones who “talk” when they deploy missiles along Russian borders (former Warsaw pact and Soviet states) saying that this is “temporary” and that they are “just researching on the aerodynamics of kites”, after Russians undid their empire on their own and without unnecessary “talk” (something never seen in History of mankind before). That viscerally “pro Russia” Putin doesn’t get the credit for that.
When Tsars said “‘We’ will have no other option than start sending opposing factions to Siberia for a while”, they had been doing that for decades already. After “the free world won the cold war”, as greatest Ronald Reagan put it, Russia unilaterally stopped taking their nuclear submarines to pee and sh!t in front of the U.S. NATO countries’ coasts (and since NATO wasn’t scooping their sh!t Russia wasn’t either) and in the Arctic Ocean. USG/NATO never stopped doing constantly patrolling Russia’s coasts, but then, after a decade, Russia, again without saying a word, resumed their habit. Not surprisingly, their nuclear doggies didn’t seem to have forgotten the routes. Then a phone rang in Moscow asking in a “diplomatic” way what was that about … You see, gringos like to “talk”. I could imagine that talk being like: “What is that now about? How could -you- do that? We are just doing the Universe the favor of making sure there is freedom on Earth … ”
I wonder if Western MSM even understand themselves what they are saying:
// __ Russia’s Dilapidated Aircraft Carrier Keeps Getting Banned From Ports
http://www.popularmechanics.com/military/navy-ships/a23584/admiral-kuznetsov-sad-smoky-voyage/
I went to school in Germany and had the chance to have some honest, candid conversations with some types of folks there (no, I don’t have that teenage disease about believing that pondering about something or listening to other people will change your own ways of thinking). I also let them know I didn’t/couldn’t agree with them (which was very obvious to them anyway). They told me:
“Nazi Germany could have won the war …, but they spent too much time making their tanks technically excellent, while the Russians just made their weapons fit and ready to fight” …
Things have changed quite a bit from the times Kant was trying to convince us about the wasteful stupidity of wars and the new, seemingly terminal past cold-war era in which we are living
Life on earth as we know it is just a infinitesimally minor anomaly in the vastness of the Universe and we believe we are sitting our rear ends on the top of it all. As many heavy thinkers have been pointing out we have been playing with toys for which we are not ready either morally or technically for way too long. It makes total sense that we will go “Boom!” (figuratively speaking) one of these days. It may just take a few hundred of millions of years for another species to take over and start the cycle again … Nature has been through this a number of times already:
// __ The Journey of Man: A Genetic Odyssey
youtube.com/watch?v=Qzc7T3DdKvk
~
RCL
Concise, to the point, and well said.
Send her the book.
I have several books in mind, also.
Clinton doesn’t strike me as someone who does a lot of reading. I don’t think she listens to anybody except her worshipers.
Hillary (and Bill) totally listen to the Big Money–the global 0.01%–as well as folks who are even closer to the money than are the Clintons–e.g., Kissinger.
she also listens to her wallstreet pimps
And the bankers, of course.
I just wanted to add that others have written objectively about Syria, like Peter Van Buren, Scott Horton, Justin Raimondo among many others in antiwardotcom
@Gert
Jonathan Freedland is a repugnant, neoliberal arch-Zionist whose influence at The Guardian has been revolting. No one approvingly citing him for anything touching on Israel in any manner is to be trusted as anything but a fellow hack for Israel.
Give me the straightforward Nakba denialists of yesteryear any day over this obscene filth of the Freedland types, my emphasis:
This morally repugnant person holds that ethnic cleansing, and massive slaughter of the indigenous, is just fine when his tribe is the one doing the cleansing and slaughtering.
Nothing more need be known to reject such a depraved person –or anyone who approvingly cites him.
READERS: Please don’t bother Ignoring Mona.
She is a authoritarian, fanatically anti-Zionist, anti-Israel radical leftist that dominates the below the line comments with an incredible amount of posts (mostly about Max Blumenthal). I’ve been ignoring her about 5% of the time since last spring. Indeed, ignoring her will not stop her extensive amount of posts. It’s a waste of time which is why I don’t ignore her. She will never get deleted because she is the former law partner of Glen Greenwald and, therefore, has earned her entitled position at the Intercept. It doesn’t hurt that she is a politically a mirror image of Glenn.
Carry on
@mona
thanks for that contribution, didnt know that a disgusting pos like that would get paid
craigly,
this is what i mean by Jesus rebuking you.
perhaps if you want a homeland where you can take all you want “unopposed!” (without having to commit murder or genocide) you should consider Mars.
please – and you could be famous for being the first.
woops. did i speak a disunderstandable lingo?
correction
without having to commit murder or genocidewithout having to defend yourself
Barb aren’t you the one that claimed that “zionists” crucified Jesus? Face it you’ve already outed yourself as a bigot. If Jesus were bothering to rebuke anyone here it would be you and your like minded syncopates who you are quick to defend.
There is actually some truth to this:
I am Glenn’s former law partner, and we do agree 90% of the time politically and philosophically.
As for the rest. I will continue substantively ignoring Craig Summers 95% of the time, a course I recommend for all. But readers should be alerted that he, and virtually all Israel apologists, support Western intervention in Syria purely because Israel wants it, as well as support for ISIS in that nation.
There is actually some truth to this:
I am Glenn’s former law partner, and we do agree 90% of the time politically and philosophically.
As for the rest. I will continue substantively ignoring Craig Summers 95% of the time, a course I recommend for all. But readers should be alerted that he, and virtually all Israel apologists, support Western intervention in Syria purely because Israel wants it, as well as support for ISIS in that nation.
Please pardon the duplicate.
She’ll never be banned because there’s 0 reason to do so. That can’t be said of you, Craig.
If he were capable of the least amount of personal reflection, he’d realize that in choosing to hang so much in a place where the vast majority of people — many of whom are very smart — disagree, he is likely to get so pissed that he will violate protocol and the minimal rules far more often than those who are comfortable here. It’s not an accident that at virtually all political sites, the trolls and miscreants overwhelmingly are those who disagree.
Those of us who are in fundamental agreement with this site’s POV simply won’t be much tempted to harangue and/or crapflood in order to feel heard.
Huh? You’re the guy who she lambastes and ridicules (as she should) routinely and easily, so I’m not surprised you’re actually attempting to use her leftism and anti-Zionism against her with people who are of the same mind as her. Your authoritarianism and ignorance are well-known here. Thanks for confirming all the bad shit you practice with your peevish, witless complaint above.
READERS: Please don’t bother Ignoring M__a.
She is a authoritarian, fanatically anti-Zionist, anti-Israel radical leftist that dominates the below the line comments with an incredible amount of posts (mostly about Max Blumenthal). I’ve been ignoring her about 5% of the time since last spring. Indeed, ignoring her will not stop her extensive amount of posts. It’s a waste of time which is why I don’t ignore her. She will never get deleted because she is the former law partner of Glen Greenwald and, therefore, has earned her entitled position at the Intercept. It doesn’t hurt that she is a politically a mirror image of Glenn.
Carry on
attention planet…
The fascade that craigsummers presents for genocide for personal space is only the beginning of a larger plan of genocide for territorial expansion over the entire planet.
WHAT ELSE ARE LYING THIEVING EXPANSIONIST GENOCIDAL MANIACS TO DO?
think about it.
Give me Avigdor Lieberman over Freedland any day and twice on Sunday, at least with the former WYSWIG.
Here in Ole’Blighty we’re suffering renewed attacks of the “Zionism = Judaism, ergo anti-Zionism = antisemitism” kind. The Graun is very much part of that.
Follow (if you don’t already):
http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.co.uk/
… for very decent coverage of that front…
The UK has some great groups fighting all this “anti-Zionism=antisemitism” bullshit. Another is Free Speech on Israel.
I’m aware of it. It’s very recent.
you may discover that one’s adherence to “anti-Zionism=antisemitism” is a ZOMBIE STATE OF MIND. You mentioned “lack of personal reflection” which is a lack of comparative anaysis for proper balance, like typing without ever looking at what you are typing, no feedback, just a blind one direction foot shuffle. It appears to be a values issue as if a zombie can change their values. It is not thought, consideration, it’s wiring.
you are a champion imo. a long time ago i mentioned something about spinning your wheels. i didnt press this because for you it’s akin to cw puzzles and your contributions are magnificient as your arguments are the good medicine for other fertile minds. what i fear is armies of these non-intellect hard-wired nitwits. Arts of all types in early schooling is what will prevent this syndrome from taking root.
thank you for reading.
Twitter:
It is a WAR of TERROR…. Our fine sounding War on Drugs?.? The Taliban had the poppy crop under control until we invaded and every year since then the poppy cultivation has increased…..
2004 Pentagon-commissioned report specified in listing the causes of terrorism: “American direct intervention in the Muslim world”; our “one-sided support in favor of Israel”; support for Islamic tyrannies in places like Egypt and Saudi Arabia; and, most of all, “the American occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan.” The report concluded: “Muslims do not ‘hate our freedom,’ but rather, they hate our policies.” Countless individuals who carried out or plotted attacks on the West have said the same.
Nobody should need official reports or statements from attackers to confirm what common sense makes clear: If you go around the world for years proclaiming yourself “at war,” bombing and occupying and otherwise interfering in numerous countries for your own ends — as the U.S. and U.K. have been doing for decades, long before 9/11 — Chilcot Report and 7/7 London Bombing Anniversary Converge to Highlight Terrorism’s Causes
Glenn Greenwald……another 38 billion dollars of military aid to Israel over the next decade??
I don’t think Clinton will follow through with the no fly zone gambit because of the inherent dangers. I think instead that she will continue to arm the rebel factions on the belief that only arms and military parity has a chance to bring Assad and rebels together to negotiate an end to this destructive nightmare. Will that work? I don’t know, but I do know that stepping away altogether will keep both sides, neither of which will give in, fighting forever.
ZIONISTS,including Craig Summers, want intervention purely because of ISRAEL
It has nothing — diddly squat — to do with “humanitarian”concerns, or dead Syrian children. No, they even support **ISIS** in Syria. And the reason, the whole reason, is I*S*R*A*E*L
Many, many Israel apologists oppose attacking ISIS in Syria, they prefer to consider ISIS running that nation than Assad staying in power. Entirely because of this: Israeli Intel Chief: We Don’t Want ISIS Defeated In Syria
Whether it’s Hillary Clinton or Zionist fanatics in comments, they want Assad ousted, and ISIS left alone, because Israel wants both.
Ignore all the prattle about evil Russia, slaughtered civilians & etc. It is always and only about one thing: ISRAEL.
READERS: Please don’t bother Ignoring Mona.
She is a authoritarian, fanatically anti-Zionist, anti-Israel radical leftist that dominates the below the line comments with an incredible amount of posts (mostly about Max Blumenthal). I’ve been ignoring her about 5% of the time since last spring. Indeed, ignoring her will not stop her extensive amount of posts. It’s a waste of time which is why I don’t ignore her. She will never get deleted because she is the former law partner of Glen Greenwald and, therefore, has earned her entitled position at the Intercept. It doesn’t hurt that she is a politically a mirror image of Glenn.
Carry on
There is actually some truth to this:
I am Glenn’s former law partner, and we do agree 90% of the time politically and philosophically.
As for the rest. I will continue substantively ignoring Craig Summers 95% of the time, a course I recommend for all. But readers should be alerted that he, and virtually all Israel apologists, support Western intervention in Syria purely because Israel wants it, as well as support for ISIS in that nation.
The joke of the hour:
“… Glenn’s former law partner, and we do agree 90% of the time politically and philosophically.”
You are Glenn Greenwald’s lapdog so YOU agree with him 90% of the time, it is not “WE” agree 90%. You do not write any articles, you do not write books, you are not a philosopher, not a legal scholar, not a politician. Your life consists of typing anti Israeli comments online. So, what’s for Greenwald to agree with you? That Craig is a Zionist?
Mani is a troll whom I almost always ignore. I shall continue that here.
Hi Mona,
You have taken some of those quotes out of context and added suppositions to them to support your highly biased hypothesis. There are many reasons, far more vital than the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, that drive interventionism support. There is a whole history of Cold War brinkmanship, and more importantly, Sunni/Shiite rivalry which “trumps” it. Anyone, not just Zionists or Craigsummers, would agree that, “the enemy of my enemy is my friend.” It seems to me that any shot you can take against Israel you go for, whether warranted or not.
Nope. Major General Halevy’s words speak for themselves, and I can find many more Zionist military experts saying the same thing. In fact, I have. When I have a second I’ll post some more of them. Zionists’ interests are exactly as I indicated, with citation to Major General Halevy.
Now, it is absolutely true that other than Zionists, there’s a cavalcade of tribal interests in play. I am shortly going to post an independent reflection on that. No, for now, in this sub-thread, I’m addressing the ZIONIST support for intervening against Assad and concomitant opposition to undermining ISIS.
Here’s some more: Israeli think tank: Don’t destroy ISIS; it’s a ‘useful tool’ against Iran, Hezbollah, Syria. Really, that Israel, and its apologists, are virtually unanimous in supporting the removal of Assad, and prefer ISIS taking over Syria, is found all kinds of places. It isn’t remotely obscure or controversial.
I’m not sure why you tried to throw skeptical shade on that. It’s not reasonably deniable. And it explains why a strident Zionist like Craig Summers floods all the Syria threads with disingenuous yammering about Assad, Russia and humanitarian concerns — Summers doesn’t give a shit about humanitarian concerns. (Among other things, he’s ardently pro-torture because both Israel and the U.S. have “need” of it.)
No shade intended, just skepticism about about a singular primary motivational force uniting an entire people, whether they be Zionists or not. Looking forward to your address on the “cavalcade” of other interests at play in this horrendous genocide. I’II bet their words, deeds and alliances have had far greater impact than any Israeli generals’. Going to Israel this week, will also visit the West Bank. Then, shopping and museums in Paris.
elite dominationism has its “pleasures”, and prices!
and the psychology texts all agree that the submissive rules the game.
I submitted a comment, it didn’t show up. When I try to post it again, it tells me, “you’ve already said that”.
What could that be?
Gross oversimplification bordering with nonsense. Ignoring wider geopolitical context in MENA and elsewhere and the reason for the led aces old complications to the political situation by including Israel, a 800 pound nuclear gorilla sitting in the ME, funded by US since 1965. Also brushing aside Palestinian issue makes the article worthless.
If we want to know what the Russians are doing/saying/thinking, why not ask them? I’m trying to think of the last time I saw the Russian ambassador interviewed in the American press. I can’t remember it.
Call up the Russian embassy in New York or Washington DC and do an interview. Don’t try to play gotcha or spew talking points. Simply ask some questions and let the Russians present their case or their side of the story.
That would be real journalism.
The new “Dikileaks” investigation is just a sideshow and ploy to make the elections seem more real, contested, and partisan in the final stretch than they actually are. I suspect the plan continues to be what it always appeared to be: the duopoly has been unified against the electorate, against true democracy, and any who are not part of the oligarchic command-class. A unified party duopoly is still on plan to give the election to Clinton no matter what, that was long ago pre-decided. Having yet “secured” the presidency (after that added final jolt of cinematic drama) she will proceed, as scheduled (confer: Bush’s schedule to invade Iraq), to implement the augmented destruction and or total submission of any remaining non-vassal states in the Middle East, e.g. Syria, Iran, Lebanon. Then it’s on to Russia, China–with elite neoliberal “global governance” ultimately being the nec plus ultra of human life and existence on Earth.
Inscribed on the UN’s building entrance, the last part of Saadi’s poem (in translated form) reads:
If you have no sympathy for the troubles of others,
You are unworthy to be called by the name of a Human.
Stop picking on the review and start paying attention to the fact that outside actors, particularly US, Russia and Saudi Arabia, have brought death and destruction to millions of Syrians. This is my reading of the conclusion of the book being reviewed here.
you will probably never read this. i am behind a day in reading but thank you for bringing up a very good quote. reminds me of the saying “walk a mile in my moccasins”. TO the point of “stop picking on the review and start…” IT seems that the people who troll these pages with their snidey little comments have a mutual admiration society going which argues among themselves only for their own benefit, ego, political, or religion. They are a microcosim of America, SELF INDULGENT LITTLE BRATS who spew their tripe and take up tooooo much space saying mean and nasty things to each other. You will never see these trolls in the dakotas standing with the real “human beings”. you would never have seen these blow hearts at the march on DC in 69, or DNC march in 68,or with MLK or at an anti Trump/HRC rally. I have been to all those. They (I won’t name names) but most are on this page are trolling and stabbing at their attackers in the dark recesses of the internet afraid to come into the light. I read all the progressive stuff Counterpunch,truthout, alternet…ect for the excellent articles and I agree with your conclusion of this thoughtful article. The trolls seem to take each article devolve it into part of their personal agenda which reminds me of TRUMP and HRC if you catch my drift…. They stick their head in the sand like a TRUMPITE > NO No No I do not want to expand my universe I am not interested in anyone but myself. I do not want to help any one but my self which is America NOW. I think this rant speaks to the quote. Hope that you revisit this age. kempwilliamwood@gmail.com
The headline is perfect.
You see how bold the democrats’ nominee is?
There is a big chance all the Middle-East will be solved once and for all. And it could happen in just a week or so.
Should Clinton ascend to the throne, she could change the constitution, and appoint Netanyahu as the Secretary of State (and as the Secretary of Defence as well). Voila, Syria, Yemen and Gaza become piles of smouldering rubble.
US, Israeli and Saudi diplomats will be seen having a raucous dance in the street.
ISIS/Al Qaeda operatives with their weapons (and sarin gas) will have first class travel passes to the new country to be destroyed. Destination: Philippines?
Charles Glass is responsible for the choice of commentary in this article. It’s false to believe that this article by Charles Glass is just a book review which shouldn’t be subject to criticism. The review paints the Syrian regime as the victim.
“……..Whenever Assad’s back is against the wall, Russia and Iran pitch in with more help. When the rebels retreat, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and Turkey send more fighters and weapons…… In Bahrain, the Saudis and the local royal family crushed the protestors……”
And,
“…….Despite the failure of revolution everywhere but Tunisia, outside powers seized with alacrity on Syrian dissent to bring down a regime whose cardinal sin was its affiliation with Shiite Iran, Hezbollah, and Russia…….”
Mr. Glass chose the wording in the review – and in my opinion – a remarkably naïve and biased view of the conflict (for such a short article). The “good guys” are the Russians and Iran “pitching in to help”, and the bad guys are the US and allies crushing dissent all over the Middle East while stoking the flames in Syria.
continued from below..
no. this is not a ticket to heaven for eternity. and it is somewhat presumptuous for me to presume he would rebuke you when your utterings seem to demonstrate a disdain for much of humanity. Accepting Jesus allows you to hold people you would otherwise sacrifice as lives who are sacred and worthy of the most respect. And you would never ask others to give up their lives for your gain. And, you get to return to life. Life recycles. You get to bond with others in the celebration of life and experience a comfort like no other. And, you will know goodness and have a strength like no other.
Sound good?
>“……..You can try to reclaim your lost soul by accepting Jesus but i suspect even He would rebuke you…….”
>Once I accept Jesus as my savior, that is my ticket to heaven for all eternity. There is no keeping me out. It is a little presumptuous of you to suggest that I will be rebuked by God once I accept his only son as my lord. However, I do suspect he loves me a smidgen more than you (just a hunch).
>Thanks Barrabas (Jesus loves you)
The Obama Administration has caved in to Russian interests at every turn in Syria beginning with the deal to remove Assad’s stockpile of chemical weapons (which Assad continued to use anyway). This has only emboldened the Russian President leading to the current military campaign and humanitarian crisis in Aleppo (al-Jazeera, 10-29-2016, “Aleppo: Putin rejects army request to resume air raids”).
“……..Some analysts think the period between now and January, when a new United States president will take office, is a time when raids on east Aleppo may intensify, believing US President Barack Obama will be reluctant to confront Russia militarily before he steps down……”
The lull in Russian and Syrian bombing may not last long. Ironically, the weakness exhibited by the Obama Administration may be partly responsible for the current crisis, and the “window of opportunity” for Russia to finish the job in Aleppo before the next US President takes office. Hillary Clinton (if she is elected) has promised to be much tougher on Putin’s military adventurism in Syria (and presumably Ukraine).
You call Russia’s involvement “Putin’s military adventurism”. Apply the same rubric to the U.S.: Will it be Hillary’s military adventurism? You complain of Glass’s choice of words, be careful of your own.
Assad was attempting to liberalize Syria when there was a protest of some sort involving rationing. The US exploited the divisions within Syria to destabilize it, fomenting rebellion along the lines of Libya and Iraq. It did the same thing in Iran back in the 1950s. Since the Russo/Afghan war, Islamic jihadists have been used by CIA as cannon fodder to effect regime change.
What the US media is not reporting is the illegality and duplicity of America’s various interventions. When has a MSM reporter asked an America official about the legality of covertly arming rebels in Syria? American Exceptionalism has come to mean that Americans don’t have to obey the law or tell the truth.
Russia was recently voted off the UN Human Rights Commission and Saudi Arabia was put in to replace it. Which seems insane. The United Nations, the organization created to prevent WW III, is falling apart.
The Russian government does respond to international pressure – at least to a point. According to al-Jazeera (10-29-2016), Putin rejected a request by the (Russian) military to resume bombing in Aleppo:
“…….The Russian army said on Friday that it had asked the president for authorisation to resume its bombing campaign, but Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said Putin “considers it inappropriate at the current moment”, adding the president thought it necessary to “continue the humanitarian pause” in the war-battered city…….”
“Liberal” columnist, Jonathan Freedland, states that Russian can be influenced by demonstrations at their embassy. He blasts the anti-west British-based Stop the War Coalition for refusing to demonstrate against the Russian campaign in Syria (Guardian, “If they really wanted to Stop the War in Syria, they’d target Russia”, 10-14-2016):
“………Despite what Stop the War [Coalition] says, “opposing the west” won’t bring any of that horror to an end. For it is Russia that is up to its neck in the blood of Aleppo. It is Russia that joins Assad in the bombing of hospitals. It is Russia which stands accused – and credibly accused – of bombing an aid convoy…….Russia is deliberately targeting civilians and civilian infrastructure……….what’s needed is some pressure on Russia to stop……We know Putin cares about his international standing. That’s why he spends millions on his propaganda channel Russia Today. He would not want pictures beamed around the world of mass demonstrations outside Russian embassies………. Those who regard themselves as the peace movement [Stop the War Coalition] should live up to their name. The slaughter of the innocents of Aleppo started long ago: it’s time they did their bit to stop the war…….” Freedland, my addition in brackets
An extreme amount of International pressure has been exerted on Russia because of their bombing campaign in Aleppo. Most recently, a school was bombed killing 22 children and six teachers. Russia denied bombing the school – and suggested that the pictures of the bombed school were computer generated (i.e., faked).
The Stop the War Coalition opposes the west, not war.
want to fight against assad?
be my guest
get your gun
get a plane ticket
go there
enjoy
You are not entitled to my sons, my daughters. my friends and neighbors, or any americans. Do your recruiting in the hell you came from. You can try to reclaim your lost soul by accepting Jesus but i suspect even He would rebuke you.
“……..You can try to reclaim your lost soul by accepting Jesus but i suspect even He would rebuke you…….”
Once I accept Jesus as my savior, that is my ticket to heaven for all eternity. There is no keeping me out. It is a little presumptuous of you to suggest that I will be rebuked by God once I accept his only son as my lord. However, I do suspect he loves me a smidgen more than you (just a hunch).
Thanks Barrabas (Jesus loves you)
Jesus…died for our sins…for a few days, then he went to the Big House to live with daddykins, who is the world’s first and most prolific mass murderer…of animals, men, women, children, and foetuses.
I learned all of that from reading the bible.
Mind you, the bible didn’t specifically say that the any woman drowned by his petulant flood was pregnant…
old testament, cults, tribes, smoting, sacrificing, sharia ways
new testament, new ‘program’, before public schools
Freedland (whom I know very well) is an annoying liberal ‘Israel uber alles’ Zionist twerp and a stain on The Grauniad.
FUCK OFF, Craig.
There’s that dirty word “Zionist” again. I should have done a little better job of qualifying “liberal”:
“……..“Liberal” [Zio-Nazi] columnist, Jonathan Freedland……”
There, that should make things better.
Nincompoops like Freedland and the other (faux)’lefty’ Ziobots were ranting against the StWC long before Syria. The reason? StWC opposes Israel’s crimes.
It is now as it was thus.
You’re clueless, as per usual.
“……..The reason? StWC opposes Israel’s crimes…..”
Fair enough, but maybe they should change their name to reflect their anti-west (anti-American) and anti-Israel obsession. They are not really anti-war. They are an amalgamation of Islamists and radical leftists that oppose the west – and more pointedly, America and Israel. How about Stop the Zio-Nazis coalition?
How about you just fuck off?
Twits like you and their “liberal-Zionist” counterparts believe that ‘if Israel falls, the West falls’. That’s why you claim StWC is ‘anti-West’.
As regards this “amalgamation of Islamists and radical leftists”, only a few dumb Muricans believe that: those who believe “Muslims=Terrorists”, a favourite Zionist trope, again: like you.
Go AWAY!
Oh please Gert the StWC have proven they only care about Muslims when it fits in with their political agenda. They famously kept Syrians who had a point of view different then their own from speaking .
https://leftfootforward.org/2015/11/stop-the-war-refuse-to-listen-to-syrians-during-debate-on-syria/
not surprised to see an StWC member trying the same tactics here. Unfortunately for you Gert you don’t get to silence voices with opinions different than yours on TI.
I’ll give Freedland credit for writing intelligently about domestic affairs.
But on Israel he’s a hopeless hypocrite who claims that 1. criticising Israel is fine and 2. as long as you mind your language.
He then proceeds 3. to never criticise Israel himself and 4. berate everyone for not using quite le mot juste when they do.
you are a source of chaos death and destruction.
the world does need people like you on the planet.
the world does not want people like you on our planet.
you need to find a home more suitable to your ways.
how about mars.
there are 2 ways to get to mars.
“The slaughter of the innocents of Aleppo started long ago: it’s time they did their bit to stop the war…….”
The slaughter of the innocent PALESTINIANS started long ago: it’s time they did their bit to stop the war…….”
“An extreme amount of International pressure has been exerted on Russia because of their bombing campaign…”
An extreme amount of International pressure has been exerted on ISRAEL because of their bombing campaign.
“Most recently, a school was bombed killing 22 children and six teachers. Russia denied bombing the school”
“According to an initial assessment, Israeli artillery on at least three occasions hit an UNRWA school where 3,300 people were seeking refuge. While the agency says it is too early to provide a death toll, there are at least 16 civilians believed to be dead, and several, including to women and children, and to UNRWA guards trying to protect the site.”
” Russia is deliberately targeting civilians and civilian infrastructure…”
It is the U.S. support in the UN and the billions in aide given to Israel that enables Israel’s targeting of civilians and civilian infrastructure in Gaza:
On 8 July 2014, Israel initiated a military offensive in the Gaza Strip. Although accounts vary, most estimates put the number of residents of Gaza killed in the 50-day armed conflict at over 2,100, of whom at least 70% were civilians, including over 500 children. Over 11,000 were wounded and over 100,000 made homeless.
“…It is Russia that joins Assad in the bombing of hospitals.”
It is the U.S. support in the UN and the billions in aide given to Israel that enables Israel to bomb hospitals in Gaza:
Reported by NBC News:
GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip — Israeli forces fired a tank shell at a hospital in Gaza on Monday, killing at least four people and injuring 40 others, health officials said.
It was the third hospital Israel’s military has struck since launching a ground offensive in Gaza last week.
“(Guardian, “If they really wanted to Stop the War in Syria, they’d target Russia”, 10-14-2016):”
“If they really wanted to Stop the War in Israel-Palestine Conflict, they’d target the U.S.”
The Invisible Hand of Democracy:
Washington Post/Wikileaks Cables, 17 Apr. 2011:
“[t]he State Department has secretly financed Syrian political opposition groups and related projects, including a satellite TV channel [Barada TV] that beams anti-government programming into the country.” The “cables show that the State Department has funneled as much as $6 million to the [Movement for Justice and Development, a London-based network of Syrian exiles,] since 2006 to operate the satellite channel and finance other activities inside Syria….
Washington Post, 14 Jun. 2013:
“The CIA is preparing to deliver arms to rebel groups in Syria through clandestine bases in Turkey and Jordan that were expanded over the past year in an effort to establish reliable supply routes into the country for nonlethal material, U.S. officials said…. U.S. officials involved in the planning of the new policy of increased military support … said that the CIA has developed a clearer understanding of the composition of rebel forces…. Within the past year, the CIA also created a new office at its headquarters in Langley to oversee its expanding operational role in Syria.”
Washington Post, 2 Oct. 2013:
According to U.S. officials, the CIA “has sent additional paramilitary teams to secret bases in Jordan in recent weeks in a push to double the number of rebel fighters getting CIA instruction and weapons before being sent back to Syria. The agency has trained fewer than 1,000 rebel fighters this year, current and former U.S. officials said…. The descriptions of the CIA training program provide the most detailed account to date of the limited dimensions and daunting objectives of a CIA operation that President Obama secretly authorized in a covert action finding he signed this year.”
http://intellit.muskingum.edu/othercountries_folder/syria.html
Why the Arabs don’t want us in Syria — Fascinating article by Robert F. Kennedy, whose father was assassinated by an angry Arab. Wanting to understand why an Arab would be so angry at our government, he educated himself.
The piece especially focuses on the CIA and other U.S. meddling in Syria. It’s well worth a read. This is part of the more conclusion toward the end, my emphasis:
The burden on those endorsing U.S. intervention in Syria is extremely heavy in light of that bolded bit; they must compellingly explain why this intervention would be different.
It’s an excellent article, Mona. Thanks for bringing it up.
It’s hopegiving there are still Americans willing to ask ‘difficult questions’.
To Mona:
Yes, what we have done has been consistently cruel and most problematic; The Founding Fathers were certainly fortuitous. And our historic foreign policy is not a fine example of Judeo-Christian values in the likes of: Though Shall Not …Kill…Steal…Covet…Bear False Witness…And “Do” Love Thy Neighbor.
Excellent book review. I just ordered a copy and am eagerly awaiting delivery especially in light of the arrival of the Kuznetsov and its battle group in the southern Med. That deployment seems to be a pretty big deal, given that some (e.g., Kilcullen) have previously written that Russia lacks the logistics to sustain its operations in Syria.
“The deaths of more than 500,000 and the dispossession of almost half of Syria’s estimated 22 million inhabitants testify to the lack of interest these outsiders have in Syria itself…”
Think about this the next time you are in a car:
If you laid out the Syrian dead bodies alongside their individuals displaced, allowing for a mere three feet of space for each, they would stretch out for 6,534 miles, more than all the way across the U.S. and back.
And this is only one country we haven’t even finished destroying yet in order to bestow our values, principles, and justice upon.
“The deaths of more than 500,000 and the dispossession of almost half of Syria’s estimated 22 million inhabitants”
Their mistakes?
Mistake 1: Having Free Education
Mistake 2: Having Free Health Care
Mistake 3: 51% state owned large industries
no kidding?
Another mistake: Not having nuclear bombs.
Certainly the pattern for capitalistic prey.
My biggest complaint is that this book review wasn’t ten times longer, but obviously I should read the book to get the whole scoop. Thanks too for your attempts to calm down this Cold War: Part II
Even though the Syrian conflict is happening on Israels borders, and Israel is occupying Syrian land, not one word in this article about Israeli interests and involvements in the war. Which makes the entire article BS in terms of not being truthful. Common sense, should tell anyone that Israel is one of the main players in the war. Based on the facts, of who has the most to gain from the war, if the Syrian leader is replaced and the country destroyed. Unquestionably Israel will be the biggest benefactors, so they’re involved up to their eyeballs, but not according to this article, which somehow missed or avoided admitting the obvious. Shame on you !
It’s interesting that no mention is made of Israel and the Israeli role in events in Syria. From the 1946 founding of Israel, which pushed many thousands of Palestinian refugees into Syria, to the invasion and occupation of the Golan Heights, Israel has played a large and negative role in Syrian history.
I agree. Too many articles about Syria today leave no mention of Israel. How fitting for that Zionist government if Assad is overthrown; an “occupation” force is used; Israel would almost certainly expand the northern “borders” further into Syria.
Also all this news about Syria has overshadowed the continuing illegal building of settlements in Israel…..
Do you know this because you’ve read Phillips’ book?
stick around.
you will also note that references to these israeli related mentions, which are quite numerous and argumentively accurate, are not removed, and become debated and informative thanks to many contributors here.
right of protest may survive here – which may become the last remaining bastion of off-msm. my own opinion is that the zions of isreal (right wing warocrats without conscience or religion, not to conflate jews with zions, they’re different) are acting on the yinon plan.
somethings gotta give.
It is a sad commentary on the state of ‘the free press/independent media’ that the book mentioned is what passes for a hard hitting look at the US role in the atrocities happening in Syria. Just suggesting that the US played a minor role in the attempted coup(s) against the multiethnic, multireligious, broadly supported coalition government AKA ‘the Assad Regime’ is seen as daring (referring to the Syrian government as a multiethnic, multireligious broadly supported coalition as such would be scandalous, mentioning that it has greater democratic legimacy than all the US supported regimes in the region being blasphemy).
You’d never know that there were brave Syrians who respond to the shelling of civilian areas to dig out the survivors who don’t wear nice, new, shiny white helmets and are known as the Syrian Civil Defence if you get your information from American media outlets. Indeed, from those sources you’d have to be very meticulous and detail oriented to realize that civilian areas NOT under the control of the ‘rebels’ were subjected to shelling, and the notion that it was through such tactics (and waves of car bombs, suicide bombers, and the liberal use of American supplied bullets) that places like EASTERN Aleppo became ‘rebel controlled areas’ (where civilians aren’t allowed to leave by the rebels) in the first place.
Twenty years ago I was against military intervention in the Middle East, and I am now, and yet my thinking is altogether different about it. Back then I favored an atheist, left-wing perspective that Christianity and Islam were strains of a virus (dating back to Moses) centered on reproduction and conversion by force, and so there should be no fundamental difference between cultures there and here. Accordingly, I held it to be natural that democracy would break out in all Middle Eastern countries unless vicious tyrants backed by sinister foreigners continually repressed it. Opposing intervention then meant opposing what I assumed was all stuff like aid to SAVAK, and allowing their people to proclaim liberty.
Now I lean toward a very different position. I credit Christianity for abolishing slavery in Rome and America, for fostering a sense of chivalry to be contrasted with the sense of women as chattel property as still practiced in the Middle East, and hence setting the stage for sexual equality. I see it as proclaiming ideas of mercy and justice that underlie human rights, and for having pioneered democracy in enclaves like the Vatican, San Marino, even Puritan Massachusetts. The very idea of democracy, as explained by the thinkers of the Age of Reason, was to implement the General Will, which was in turn essentially a representation of divine will as manifested in the conscience and thoughts of rebels, whether Jesus or Martin Luther. By contrast, I see Islam as the random ravings of a sand pirate and a murderer, a religion that glorifies authority and power, and blame this lack of inspiration for the failure of Islamic nations to move forward. In turn, I give the Americans and others more credit for having, on occasion, good intentions in intervening; I’ll allow they are not simply propping up dictators or backing convenient violent rebellions, but often trying to fight known monsters.
And yet… it still does no good. Because they are layering trappings of democracy, imitations of democracy, limited human rights onto an ideological structure from which they did not originate. And so all that effort just leads to things that collapse. The atheistic liberal perspective, ironically enough, seems to fall for each new Crusade, thinking that just a few strategic bombs separate the Middle East from becoming a copy of New York.
Now all this is relevant because ISIS has just shown us that no, the Syrians will never run out of ways to kill people if people stop sending them guns. They can keep marching folks off towers or chopping their heads off with knives as long as they want. We can keep supporting them, or bombing them, or doing nothing, and they’ll still be miserable tomorrow. I think that there is more potential for an anti-Islamic position of pacifism that accepts this than for a “tolerant” position that keeps saying “no, wait, why don’t we try this…” Oh, I’m not saying nothing could be of use, some surreptitious recordings of atrocities and other intelligence, the occasional missionaries with balls the size of small planets who try against all odds to make a difference, a little diplomacy, a little psychology, and yes, direct tit-for-tat retaliatory actions against people who have made themselves direct enemies of America rather than being killed out of some charitable impulse. But please … let’s stop nation building. If we build any more nations there’s not going to be any sensible law left.
Are you British? In my experience only a Brit, from a country responsible for a long history of human rights atrocities and colonial arrogance could come up with such xenophobic disdain and simplistic nonsense.
Whatever nation you call home the truth of history mocks this diatribe. So called Christian nations are as easily enticed into wanton bloodshed as anyone else.
thank you. much better stated than i am willing to devote the time to right now.
Ditto!
In your search for the meaning of life, have you come across those who designed and printed the first jihadi poster?
In your pursuit of enlightenment, have you discovered who wrote the first jihadi indoctrination books for children and introducing them to guns, bullets and beheading?
” books such as “The Alphabet for Jihad Literacy” were produced under the auspices of the U.S. Agency for International Development by the University of Nebraska at Omaha and smuggled into Afghanistan through networks built by the CIA and Pakistan’s military intelligence agency, the ISI. ”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/12/08/the-taliban-indoctrinates-kids-with-jihadist-textbooks-paid-for-by-the-u-s/
Aware or Unaware, now?
One doesn’t see your kind of clueless verbosity too often. Well done! (Not!)
Wnt
Very interesting comment, Wnt. Broaching this subject on this venue will not win you any friends – and you will receive the typical but lazy response that you are a racist. Couple of points I want to make. Stanley Fish writes (New York Times, October 7, 2007, “Why Democracy?”):
“….The same reasoning applies to the question of whether democracy is good for everyone……..But if you distrust teleological arguments (as I tend to), you will be skeptical of the possibility of exporting democracy and think of it instead as something others might take or leave, depending on what they hold dear. Given that democracy privileges some values, personal mobility, individual entrepreneurialism, tolerance, cosmopolitanism, and downplays others, community, ideological conformity, cultural stability; its attraction will vary with the values a particular society embraces. A society for example that rests on a strong religious foundation may find some democratic practices useful, but it will not be inclined to fight and die for them…..”
Stanley Fish was dead wrong on his last point. The Arab Spring showed that Arabs were willing to fight and die for freedom/democracy. Millions of Arabs (and other minorities) took to the streets throughout the Middle East – and thousands died in the process for political change. Most of the protesters probably did not support a perfect replica of a western-style democracy, but changing deeply embedded cultural values requires time. The revolution may have been temporarily halted, but it most likely is not dead. It (IMHO) is a work in progress – and I mean decades of change will be required.
Additionally, the radical Islamists co-opted the Arab Spring. They are passionately committed to their cause, and while numbering a relatively few of the population, they are extremely militant (and anti-democratic). However, they are as much a part of the oppressed class as the others who marched for more political rights in the Arab Spring. In fact, they have always represented a threat to the despots that rule the Middle East, and from time to time, they have been violently subdued. The Muslim Brotherhood worked within the system in Egypt and was elected to power after Mubarak was overthrown. The Brotherhood was violently forced underground after the military seized power. Morsi badly misunderstood “democracy” and hundreds were murdered by the police and military. Turkey’s AKP is also a Islamic political organization that has occasionally worked on the fringes of democracy, but they are a main stream Islamic political party in Turkey that works within the framework of a democracy. A coup was recently attempted in Turkey to forcefully remove the AKP from power.
There is a continuum of political thought in Arab society (like all), but currently, the dominant opposition to the despots is the anti-democratic militant (radical) Islam. My point is that democratic change is in the air, but there are many forces working against the democratic movement including authoritarian rulers (who oppose democratic change for obvious reasons), world powers that seek a stable region for economic reasons (i.e., support the status quo) and a sectarian regional battle for supremacy between the Saudis and Iran). All of these have effectively undermined and slowed the democratic movement to a crawl – but the movement is most certainly not dead IMO.
Thank s for your interesting comment.
I’ll go first.
When I see blinders like:
… accusations of racism aren’t lazy: they’re entirely justified and the result of rational analysis.
Perhaps only out of a misplaced sense of decorum did he fail to simply call them ‘sandniggers’ and be done with it.
Your applause for this racist shit supports the need to have you permanently banned.
Yup. Racist shit it is.
My opinions are not racist. I think it is racist for you to assume that Arabs are born into and must die with the belief that Muhammad, the killer of critical poets, the slaughterer of caravans, the plagiarist of the Old Testament, is some kind of religious figure. He’s just a thug who wrote some crummy poetry, period. They may be prohibited from renouncing that belief, often under penalty of death, but that is an unjust law, not a just one to which we should defer.
The key point here that I don’t want ignored is that if the Arabs are to have a just society or a democratic society, they need to have an underlying set of social ideals that is rooted in truth and justice and an understanding of the deep things in life and philosophy, in other words a religion, and by a religion I don’t mean this awful Islamic nonsense that has let them down so many times already.
They’re Islamophobia, almost pure and distilled.
Go AWAY.
I wouldn’t call them “Islamophobia”. Islamophobia is when you’re afraid to say something against Muhammad because you might offend somebody, and their chosen means of reacting to that is cutting your head off with a knife, so you stay silent. Or when Geert Wilders has to have a squad of armed men and a panic room in order to express his party’s beliefs in Parliament. (That’s not actually an endorsement, as in many ways he fails to rise above his opposition)
What I’d call my comments would be “Islamodisagreement”. They believe one thing, I believe another. They think my beliefs are wrong, I think their beliefs are wrong. It’s not even analogous to racism, unless you think someone could be racist for not accepting they belong to an inferior race.
Now maybe if Donald Trump’s believers all got together and started slitting the throats of anyone who said a nasty word about their candidate, or for Hillary Clinton, some of your kind of people would accept that. You might start saying Donald Trump is a very holy person, and start accepting that certain kinds of expression, like saying the rich should pay taxes on what they inherit, are so fundamentally inflammatory and likely to end with somebody’s head getting cut off that people ought to be banned from making them. And this would have equal validity to saying that people shouldn’t feel free to criticize Muhammad and declaim Islam’s failings as a blueprint for society. But I wouldn’t call it valid.
Gert
I may have not chosen the same wording as Wnt, but he makes some valid points. Democracy hasn’t exactly caught on in the Arab world – and there is a reason that most Islamic countries in the greater Middle East are not democratic, generally poor and the people are mostly uneducated (and that is changing in some parts, of course). Additionally gender discrimination is the norm and blasphemy can be punished by death. Ethic and religious bigotry are at epidemic levels. Islam has a particularly strong influence on their culture(s). That’s not racism. That is the truth. That is something you might want to address rather than take the lazy way out – like the typical charge of racism.
The extent to which democracy is present in the ME/Muslim world (which is vast) varies enormously.
Failures of democracy in that part of the world are due to a myriad of reasons (ceaseless, relentless colonial meddling by the West, cheered on by its clueless racist, proto-fascist Ziobots like you, is one factor) all of which you want to impute solely to a religion. THAT is the essence of ‘intellectual’ Islamophobia.
Failures of democracy in the ‘Christian world’ are in no great shortage either.
Have a close look at your own: you’re the laughing stock of the world for your brand of Kleptocracy.
“…….ailures of democracy in that part of the world are due to a myriad of reasons (ceaseless, relentless colonial meddling by the West, cheered on by its clueless racist, proto-fascist Ziobots like you, is one factor) all of which you want to impute solely to a religion. THAT is the essence of ‘intellectual’ Islamophobia……”
Fairly classic response. It’s the fault of the west. Jesus, how many fucking times have I heard that from apologists for the political mess in the greater Middle East? Do you happen to have a degree in victimology, Gert?
“…….Failures of democracy in the ‘Christian world’ are in no great shortage either…..”
Well, of course. Democracy is difficult. None the less, that is where democracy happens to reside in this world – in the west. Israel is the closest thing to a democracy in the greater Middle East which should really piss off an anti-Jewish bigot like yourself..
Those who can’t see that Western Colonial enterprises (from Latin America to Africa to the ME) have left an ongoing legacy of raining misery upon these subjects are to dumb to educate.
All that wouldn’t be so bad if there was an end-point somewhere but there isn’t: the quest for Satan’s Excrement continues to dominate Western policy in the ME.
Now, is this the ONLY factor in the ME’s misfortunes? No, it isn’t, nor did I intimate that. But since as we’re so proud of our democracy, freedoms and achievements it’s only fair to ALSO reflect on ‘our’ crimes.
Which brings me to your victimology spiel (which probably ties in with a White Superiority Complex, so prevalent among the Trump alt-Righters): I had nothing to do with Western colonialism/imperialism and have nothing to answer to. The perpetrators, however, DO. As do their cheerleaders: dumb fucks like you. Too dumb for straightjacket in your case… You sad, sad little man…
Oooopsie… left N.America out of that list. Apologies to Craig! ;-)
And last time I looked, massive failures of democracy, like Nazism and Stalinism had nothing to do with Islam.
Democracy is not very stable, it is true. Even in the U.S. its days are numbered. And democracy is also not perfect – democracy has given us the War on Drugs and (formerly) anti-gay laws. However, it is an informative symptom of the degree to which a society can work together, I think.
It’s worth pointing out that the worst failures of democracy that you cite – Naziism and Stalinism – both involved an explicit rejection of Christianity and Christian ideals. Hitler begrudgingly tolerated it, but strove tirelessly to restore pagan themes in its place, while Stalin more or less outlawed it. This is therefore not contradictory but confirmatory to the idea that Christianity makes a distinct contribution toward democratic cultures.
Of course, in Latin America we see many failures of democracy, and many are even consistent with the liberal anti-imperialist way of thinking about these things. Certainly a primary focus on maintaining an economic model, without concern for rights or justice, is harmful whether it is by capitalists or communists. However, the story of Latin America has room for countries like Uruguay and Costa Rica that make democracy work, and we see many others struggling to do so. When democracy in Latin America collapses, it is often by a clear external force, though yes there are regimes like Venezuela’s that collapse from within. By contrast, with the Muslim countries, it seems like every time the people more or less get democracy out from under the military’s shadow, like in Egypt or now Turkey, we see their democracy devolve into Islamic fanaticism. There are only two channels in the world of Islamic governance that I can see – the Military Dictatorship Channel and the Islamic Fanatic Channel. Rumors of “Arab Spring” turned out to be greatly exaggerated. The one and only potential exception I see at this point is Tunisia … but at this point I am pessimistic enough to suppose it’s just not going to pan out.
I was struck by this sentence:
The Battle for Syria” makes a determined and successful stab at apportioning responsibility to all the countries whose lavish provision of weapons and money have prolonged the war far longer than Syria’s own resources would have permitted.
And, then later, the metaphor of a virus.
The intimation is one of something that could have been self-limiting. The corpus could have been weakened, but perhaps the deaths and displacement on the scale we’ve seen, consequent all of the “help”, might have been avoided.
I wonder, if a powerhouse the likes of the USA or Russia had seen fit to intervene in the American Civil War how differently things might have turned out. Our civil war still burns, and there is death and displacement still, and yet, it could be ever so much worse.
both sides had foreign powers seeking to benefit from the american civil war.
such is the way of empires.
Christopher Phillips, the author of The Battle for Syria: International Rivalry in the New Middle East — the book reviewed above by Charles Glass — has a web site. There, one can find a page with links to his interviews about the book.
I’ve not yet watched any and have to be gone for a bit, but I do intend to. If anyone else (who is reasonable) watches one/several/all of these please tell us what you think.
“If anyone else (who is reasonable) watches one/several/all of these please tell us what you think.”
Fuck you, too, Mona.
You just load up ‘reasonable’ in your dyno-label gun and pull that trigger over and over.
-Mona- always decides for others; control freak or mother-hen …
Other possible responses to Mona’s invidious slur upon your reasonableness include writing something reasonable.
Mr Motive; please …
Your willingness to use Mona’s labels speaks to your shared, dainty, knowledge. As with the colorblind, you insist the tree-trunk is the same color as the leaves; no matter the season.
Well played, Vic.
“Well played, Vic.”
bwahahaha …
So you did not respond to my question about Hillary telling “a room of Jews” that the US should have fixed the Palestinian election.
I asked if any Jews had a problem with such a dastardly tactic.
crickets …
Chomsky is the person who recorded, and recently played, for The Observer, Clinton’s statement.
If you don’t want to take my word that he is most assuredly a Jew. . . you could look it up.
Nuf is a moron. He’s participating in a thread in which I FIRST introduced that Hillary Clinton said that to a group of U.S. Jews. He’s just a fuckwitted amtisemite, best ignored.
The antisemites and hardcore Israel fanatics here generally all end up agreeing on absolutely nothing except that you and I are insufferable. (Well, some of them from both camps are also Trump supporters.) We apparently hurt their fee fees.
Wow! That the US often sought to achieve the election result in ‘free’ elections that they found desirable isn’t news. But now Her Highness turns out to be another smoking gun in that respect.
Thanks for that link!
jesuzchrissalmighty.
After all the books I’ve read this year on the CIA, the FBI, NSA, and the Dulles Brothers, if I hear another President, Pentagon official, SoS, or Director of this or that federal agency talk about interfering with an election or fomenting a coup, my f**king head will explode.
Has history not taught us anything?
Thank you for the link, Mr Salzmann.
Nope.
Get lost, Nuffy.
The article argues against the war and all the party factions and proxies to the war. None of these parties, including the Asad regime have any love for the Syrian people. However when the writer says
”
Tunisia led the way, when popular demonstrations forced the exit of a Western-backed Arab head of state whose corruption and brutality were on a par with those of his colleagues elsewhere the Arab world,” I read it to clearly that the western parties are playing their game of chess in their neocolonialism and this along with the pawns in power in these Arab countries are the root of this problem.
So what is the solution? The author uses the common analogy of a disease to compare the Arab spring movement that was manipulated to control the local populations to maintain the status quo to favor the western interests and those local 1% in power, tyrants and dictators, at the behest of the 1% in the western world.
I suppose the human desire for freedom, justice and dignity is a disease. And the sooner the masses realise that this view, that to say desire for freedom, Justice and dignity is universal and innate to all peoples and not just the “advaced civilization of the west” they will find their common humanity with the rest of the populations of this planet. Then all of us will be able to identify the common enemy that usurps the power to be innately free, and demand justice, equality and dignity as a human right.
If not, then just remember that the power structure will continue to divide and rule and that power structures have their roots in the colonialism that has been forgotten from memory because the powerful have hidden behind structures they created and their rule will become more and more brutal and eventually all the brute tactics will be applied at home in the West just as they are being applied openly in the rest of the world.
Message for humanity: United we stand, divided we fall. Please stand up for right wherever you see it and assist even if just by acknowledgement of calling out what is wrong and refuse to be a part of the wrong doing wherever it’s being done and in whoever’s name.
Mona’s plea to ignore me is politically-motivated.
READERS: Please Ignore Craig Summers.
“………He is an explicitly pro-torture, authoritarian, fanatically Zionist, jingoistic Republican and Trump voter (usually) who posts vast walls of dense (sic), endless text…….”
She starts off by specifically detailing my political positions (without any qualifications, of course). That has absolutely nothing to do with the “volume of crap” (which she states below). Just like on this thread, no one spews more posts in volume than Mona. Mona stupidly indicts herself and her genuine motivations for asking “readers” to ignore craigsummers. She stupidly indicts herself regarding why she had some of my posts deleted (I guess since I didn’t notice) – for political reasons. Mona is a spoiled, entitled two year old on these threads.
Mona is welcome to delete my account anytime she wants, but she will never keep me from posting when I want, directed at who I want while my account is still active. Maybe Mona should listen to the person who has had his lips attached to her ass more than anyone else, Doug Salzmann:
“………Craig, you are a poisonous pollutant in this forum. You need to go away or be removed……”
I’ve been ignoring him 95% of the time since last spring, at the request of multiple readers, and doing that does, indeed, reduce the amount of text-plastering he does. (He gets deleted if he spews too much that’s not a legitimate reply.)
Ignore him, please. The thread will be healthier if you do.
About 95% of the time I do not reply to Craig Summers, who is an authoritarian, pro-torture, Republican Trump-voter. Multiple commenters asked that I not reply to Craig because doing so causes him to post yet more walls of drivel-text, which pollutes the board.
Any new reader unfamiliar with this situation, who requests it in good faith, I will explain further about the posting policies that have generally obtained here . (I’m not staff, but am close with the person who sets the quite laissez-faire criteria. Volume per se is not a problem.) Other than that, I will continue moving on to substantive discussion of Mr. Glass’s fine piece.
a book review which critique’s the proxy war in Syria and suddenly the war-hawks appear here and swarm like fire ants to a bare foot as if they had been attacked.
Is it possible that the proxy war against Russia & Iran is a secret effort to wipe arabs off the planet?
I get that it’s a short book review, but this
“The U.S. gave rhetorical and logistical support to rebels”
could have included a brief mention of the covert CIA role in funding and arming the “rebels”.
As stated, it’s factually inaccurate by omission.
If that omission weren’t a common omission by just about everybody in the corporate media, it wouldn’t be a big deal… but it is common. I’m assuming the book covers the topic, but anybody just reading the review would be left with a false impression that our role was far more limited than it was.
Sounds like a good book though.
Thanks for the heads up Mr. Glass.
Great review, lets hope HRC takes your advice at the end, and reads it. Thanks.
Someone needs to moderate these comments.
This review and synopsis of the Syrian ‘crisis’ is a much needed retelling of some of the many of the factors explaining how we arrived at this dysfunctional point in history.
The bottom line here and elsewhere with regards to American/Western interventionism: it almost never works and always has unintended consequences that defer meaningful progress for all parties for decades, if not longer.
Our mostly clandestine, corporately motivated foreign policy needs a complete revision; with the use of soft power via diplomacy, mutually shared interests, and open cooperation being the rule, and not the exception.
There are many critical elements that are missing in this article. Having said that, what should be clear to all is that US, Russia, Assad, Saudis, Qataris, UK, Turks, Iranians, Israelis, … are not innocent victims, the Syrian people are.
And, all actors – particularly US, Russia, Assad, and Saudis – share the brunt of the blame for the suffering of the Syrian people.
We can debate about how to apportion the blame, but what is evident is that US, Russia, Assad, and Saudis are actors that egregiously act in bad faith, and they can all be found to be guilty of war crimes.
Incidentally, let’s not forgot to remind the “let’s change the subject” crowd that the “shiny object strategy” is mostly ineffective on this site! US, Russia, Assad, and the Saudi share the vast majority of the blame – stop pointing at minor actors and stop saying “look here at this shiny object!”
It’s a book review. For reasons I discussed immediately below, it’s a book I now intend to read.
Sheesh. It’s a good thing we enjoy banging our heads against walls.
People are understandably freaked out by the spate of interventionist, offensive and propagandistic shit Maz Hussain has been publishing here. Thus, some knee-jerk reading of anything touching on Syria is, I suppose, to be expected. But geez, this is just a (good) book review.
Be assured, TPTB here have heard (and heard!!!!) from the offended and outraged, including Arabs. Don’t be surprised if some of these are published here, soonish.
Mona seems to think the writers at the Intercept post any article they want, without editorial input. If Murtaza Hussain or any other writer publishes any piece, quick-to-anger Mona disapproves of, she berates them mercilessly, assuming in her ignorance , that these writers have to go through their editors before anything is published.
** that last sentence should read…that these writers do NOT have to go through their editors before anything is published**
Based on the sections I have been able to read on google books, I would say that the book itself is a very good study. The “Conclusion” section of the book makes excellent points regarding the destructive role of outside actors – “the war that everyone lost”.
My point was lost, it appears. Rather than debating the completeness of the book, the focus should be on the message of the book – the misery the outside actors, particularly US, Russia, and Saudi Arabia, have inflicted upon the Syrian people.
Below, Jamie offers a very peculiar, and quite mistaken, understanding of Charles Glass’s piece above. Somehow, it’s just imperialist propaganda, or whatever.
Charles Glass hasn’t written that much at The Intercept, but what he has published here has been uniformly intelligent and informative, as for example when he stated:
That Glass piece was titled: TO STOP ISIS, OUTSIDE POWERS MUST END THEIR PROXY WARS IN SYRIA
If a voice such as Glass’s recommends Christopher Phillips’s book as excellent for understanding the horrible and complicated situation in Syria, I am quite inclined to read that book.
Mona
“craigsummers…….who posts vast walls of dense (sic), endless text……”
Mona name appears 125 times on the thread “SYRIA’S “VOICE OF CONSCIENCE” HAS A MESSAGE FOR THE WEST”. Mine appears 34 times. Mona’s name appeared a record (as far as I know) 392 times on Murtaza Hussain’s article about the White Helmets. So Mona is lying about endless text. She post more drivel than anyone else in this forum. Her intent is to dominate every article she cares about below the line. Most of all, she is just a spoiled entitled child (as well as a documented anti-Jewish bigot).
The only way she can get rid of me is by having my account deleted like she has done to a few others – ALWAYS FOR POLITICAL REASONS.
About 95% of the time I do not reply to Craig Summers, who is an authoritarian, pro-torture, Republican Trump-voter. Multiple commenters asked that I not reply to Craig because doing so causes him to post yet more walls of drivel-text, which pollutes the board.
Any new reader unfamiliar with this situation, who requests it in good faith, I will explain further about the posting policies that have generally obtained here . (I’m not staff, but am close with the person who sets the quite laissez-faire criteria. Volume per se is not a problem.) Other than that, I will continue moving on to substantive discussion of Mr. Glass’s fine piece.
there is something different with you
and you seem to be unaware of it
you come across like a political bot, mechanical
you express no sympathy for the plight of others
no appreciation for the will of independence
are erdogan easy offended
and you have a fiendish attraction for mona like a stalker
what is you big problem, dude?
The important thing to remember is that Jesus loves us all. Am I not right?
“The important thing to remember is that Jesus loves us all. Am I not right?”
Well, Craig, Jesus never existed as a person.
The idea of the son of god, given through virgin birth, dates back many thousands of years.
The death and re-birth 3 days later is analogous to the sun (northern hemisphere) reaching its lowest point on the solstice. Due to refraction of light in the atmosphere, the sun appears to not move for 3 days at the solstice. Then. magically the sun starts moving and the days get a tiny bit longer and, thank god, the sun didn’t die.
The same thing happens at the summer solstice (3 day visual pause) but who cares, it’s sunny and food is abundant, unlike at the winter solstice.
THAT is where the bible comes from; pagan ritual based on physical observation of the world.
The IDEA of Jesus is a good one but it ain’t real.
To nuf said:
Hope your wrong about Jesus, because that would make the God thing not very plausible, thus making the Hell thing impossible, which then would leave no place for our most greedy psychopathic oppressors to deservedly suffer for an eternity.
Fuck OFF, Craig.
I think your reply would have been pretty funny if you had responded with
“Gert fucked”
No, no.
“FUCK OFF, Craig” will do.
Go on.
READERS: Please Ignore Craig Summers.
He is an explicitly pro-torture, authoritarian, fanatically Zionist, jingoistic Republican and Trump voter (usually) who posts vast walls of dense (sic), endless text. I’ve been ignoring him 95% of the time since last spring, at the request of multiple readers, and doing that does, indeed, reduce the amount of text-plastering he does. (He gets deleted if he spews too much that’s not a legitimate reply.)
Ignore him, please. The thread will be healthier if you do.
Mona, you should have included Jamie in your post. But as I have said before, it is often useful to allow the Zionist trolls have their say, so that thoughtful readers will see their cause for the travesty it is.
I just replied to Jamie separately. He’s a very weird guy, but his volume of crap is nowhere near as obnoxious as Craig’s.
Mona
It has nothing to do with volume because you post more than anyone by far. It is strictly the political point of view. No one post more volume than you Mona
“Ignore him, please. The thread will be healthier if you do.”
you really should not be telling people to not reply to CS. You are denying them the opportunity to speak. You are free to tell others, as I do, that YOU do not read the words typed by Craigy.
See why I question your lawyering skills … they are not on display when they kinda should be, being Glenn’s former law partner and all …
Of course she should. It’s simply friendly advice and, if Mona were a practicing Catholic, it would the very first of the spiritual works of mercy: to instruct the ignorant. ;^)
“if Mona were a practicing Catholic, it would the very first of the spiritual works of mercy: to instruct the ignorant. ;^)”
ha-ha. I see it as her opportunity to rap someone’s knuckles.
She has every reason to describe why she doesn’t respond to CS but directing others not to engage denies them keyboard time (I’m thinking of drive-by commenters). Any sentient being will see quickly engaging CS according to his folly is appropriate.
I noted something CS said because it was brief enough that I could not avoid seeing the words he had typed. That’s an inherent risk , I guess.
You are an antisemite(they real deal, not the faux kind the Israel apologists rant about) and a crank, whom I also generally ignore. As I’m going to do in this thread. That is, you and Craig are flip sides of the same obnoxious coin.
However, I’ve decided that if you again, as you have done many times, post that obscene, defamatory lie about me, I will ask to have you banned. You’ve repeatedly been challenged to link to this purported foul statement of mine, repeatedly said you’d find it and do so, and repeatedly been unable to . Because it is a heinous lie.
I wish to ignore you, and will do so vis-a-vis your political ranting. But if you continue to make it necessary for me to rebut a defamatory lie about me personally, I will, as I said, seek to have you banned.
It is true, as you say, that I am Glenn Greenwald’s former law partner — a known person with legally recognizable, reputational interests, and not an anonymous Internet account– and I will not have it being spread around the foul thing you have claimed about me. So, consider yourself on notice.
Bye.
Mona
“…….However, I’ve decided that if you again, as you have done many times, post that obscene, defamatory lie about me, I will ask to have you banned……..So, consider yourself on notice……”
You are the only one on this thread that has that advantage – your entitlement. No one else can make that claim (or wants to). You are a spoiled child, Mona.
well said, CraigSummers.
The spoiled brat, more like.
No wonder -Mona- bans people when they have an argument she cannot refute; bu-bye is how she resolves cognitive dissonance.
(Just imagine how embarrassing it must be for TI to kowtow to Glenn’s former law partner rather than suffer through her tortuous rants …)
Bull hit, as usual from Mona.
I said I was loathe to wade through your garbage to find a quote I know verbatim.
Even if I did, you would deny posting it. You are the consummate contrarian. Macroman did a six part collection, with links, and you denied all of it.
That is your MO. You’ve done it for years.
That is why you are a “wretched liar!”.
I did a look-up when you denied having people banned a couple of years ago. I posted a direct quote of you declaring proudly, that you had emailed “Maz and had him banned”. Yeah, you said that as Mona (no dash). After that we had dash -Mona-.
As Glenn notes, you can be anyone on the internet, even a “wretched liar” like oh cow shit.
Put up or shut up, Nuffy.
Produce the quote or hold your poisonous tongue forever.
The author is just obfuscating US war crimes. The Russians were legally called into Syria by its government; whereas we sought to overthrow Syria by sending in radical jihadist fighters that engage in acute misogyny, the murder of gays, ethnic cleansing, and of course terror against citizens.
If the United States was invaded by thousands of Jihadists from Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Libya and elsewhere — we would be perfectly in our rights to ask our allies for assistance.
This piece is pure propaganda. It is comparing one nation that seeks regime change and has sent in Jihadist fighters and air support to accomplish this — to another nation simply invited in by its ally to fight Al Nusra and ISIS.
The Intercept’s war-crime friendly articles on Syria are a disgrace. I am waiting for the next White Helmets propaganda piece:
“Not only do they only operate in rebel-controlled areas but they are a source of propaganda about the war, indeed their very existence is an element in the larger propaganda campaign to rally international support for a “regime change” war in Syria. The “White Helmets” brand was conceived and directed by a New York-based marketing company named “The Syria Campaign,” which itself was “incubated” by a larger politically oriented marketing company called Purpose.”
“Claims that the “White Helmets” have saved 65,000 people also appear to be wildly exaggerated. The areas, served by the White Helmets and controlled by Al Qaeda’s Nusra Front and its rebel allies, have few civilians living in them.”
” the White Helmets have become essential to the propaganda war by gaining — along with similar pro-rebel “activists” — a virtual monopoly on information from rebel-controlled areas,.”
“The “White Helmets” also played a dubious role in allegations that the Syrian government was using chlorine gas in 2013 and 2014 by warning residents before the attacks to expect the Syrian military to drop chlorine bomb.”
https://consortiumnews.com/2016/10/23/the-white-helmets-controversy/
1. This is a book review.
2. The book under review covers a much longer period of history and a broader swathe of issues and events than the ones you are focused on.
3. You need to learn to read for meaning and to consider and reflect before spewing.
Doug
Who really asked you to step in and correct anyone? Jamie is free to “spew” whatever he wants – book review or not. Your arrogance is remarkable, but for the life of me, I cannot figure out based on what. You are simply Mona’s lap dog.
You are wholly misreading the above piece. Did you even read the entire thing?
It concluded thus:
your failure to admit the existence and ambitions of an inner sanctum of the zionist club for world domination is at the root of “your” propaganda.
have another look at your yinon plan
make up for 8 june 1967
and realise that the fraudulent currency system in the US will be removed and replaced
have a nice day
Mr. Glass
In this narrative provided by the anti-imperialist left, Assad is the victim. He has no responsibility in the Syrian conflict. While the Saudis “crushed” the revolt in Bahrain, the Syrian regime’s “cardinal sin was its affiliation with Shiite Iran, Hezbollah, and Russia”. Apparently, Assad was “tolerant” of the protests (like his father in Hama in 1982) and the militant response of the protesters was all driven by Doha and Riyadh to install a Wahhabist in power. There obviously has been no attempt by the Iranians, Russians and Hezbollah to keep (at all costs) the most brutal dictator in the world today in power – for geopolitical reasons. Besides, the ungrateful Syrians were “inhibited” from just a few basic rights. Why were they even protesting?
The Syrian regime is the biggest organized terror operation in the world. They have committed far more war crimes in Syria than any other actor including the brutal ISIS (a true Islamic terrorist organization). Indeed, Assad undeniably initiated the war. You would think that 25,000 plus photographs of dead Syrians from torture, execution, mistreatment or a lack of treatment in regime detention prisons/centers might provide a clue to you why there is no balance of terror (as the title suggests). Or the chemical attacks, dropping hundreds of indiscriminately killing barrel bombs, using starvation as a war tactic, the massive bombing campaign of Aleppo by the Russians, the repeated targeting of hospitals and field clinics, double tapping and so on clearly shows who are the biggest terrorists in Syria – and it isn’t the US, Saudi Arabia or Qatar (or ISIS). It’s the Assad regime backed by the brutal bombing campaign by Russia. No one else comes even close.
If Phillips’ book is as excellent as Glass’ review and summary, it is a very fine work, indeed.
HRC,the untouchable criminal is not the theme of the day here?
Trying to find excuses for the criminal?
Russia did it works on morons.
Zionism,and its propagandists suck.
Mostly all media ignores the U.S. role in instigating the conflict…
In 2012 the Washington Post and other media reported on a leaked diplomatic cable that revealed that since 2006 the U.S. has been working to destabilize Syria, wanting regime change:
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-syria-wikileaks..
-idUSTRE73H0E720110418
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/us-secretly-b…
WOW! the U.S. certainly succeeded in destabilizing Syria…
At the beginning of the Syrian uprising, the U.S./ CIA working with Saudi Arabia probably infiltrated extremists into local dissident groups to foment violence, which was then encouraged by U.S. Ambassador to Syria, Robert Ford, who, like all Washington neocon types, expected the U.S. to do to Syria, what it had done to Libya.
Russia and China vetoed the necessary UN Security Council resolution so there was no basis under international law for intervention.
The U.S. has disregarded international law and armed those rebelling against the internationally recognized government of Syria.
To make such regime change respectable, Assad has to be demonized, despite his having the support of a majority of Syrians. To appease Saudi Arabia, Gulf monarchies and Israel and to weaken Russia, the U.S. intends to replace Assad with a submissive Sunni puppet.
For those who believe that military solutions do not resolve conflict, they should greatly admire Obama’s reluctance to support more military solutions.
Obama has withstood the immense power of the Washington foreign policy elite, the State Department, CIA, and the military industrial complex.
I only wish that he loudly and proudly explained his actions… but maybe that would be a “bridge to far”.
Obama’s foreign policy guru refers to the Washington foreign policy elite as “the blob”. http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/08/magazine/the-aspiring-novelist-who-became-obamas-foreign-policy-guru.html?_r=2&mtrref=theweek.com&gwh=5F50A62E524D7870ED20FF973AAE1F20&gwt=pay
Obama refers to the easy use of military solutions as the Washington “playbook”. http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/04/the-obama-doctrine/471525/
If elected, Hillary will embrace “the blob” and the Washington playbook.
The antiwar Progressives need to get a spine, and find some screws to turn…
Veteran war correspondent Stephen Kinzer:
“Coverage of the Syrian war will be remembered as one of the most shameful episodes in the history of the American press.”
—–
“Marketing and advertising companies use social media to promote their clients, but so do U.S. foreign policy managers who hire or enlist these companies to influence public perceptions to support U.S. foreign policy goals.
“For example, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton described making sure that Twitter was primed for street protests in Iran following the 2009 election, ready to spread and manage news of protests following the election and the killing of a young woman, which was blamed on the Iranian government although the circumstances of her death were murky. [Hard Choices hardback, p 423]
“The results of similar media manipulation can be seen in the widespread misunderstanding of the conflict in Syria, amid the demonization of the Syrian government and leadership and the skillful use of social media by anti-government activists. Influenced by both mainstream and this alternative media, most people in the West do not know that Bashar al-Assad remains popular with many Syrians. Nor do they realize that Assad won an election two years ago.
..
“While Secretary of State John Kerry was condemning the Syrian election as a “farce” before it had even happened, a marketing company known as The Syria Campaign waged a campaign to block knowledge of the Syrian election. Along with demonizing President Assad, the company launched a campaign which led to Facebook censoring information about the Syrian election.”
from:
https://consortiumnews.com/2016/09/23/how-us-propaganda-plays-in-syrian-war/
Consortiumnews is an excellent site. I have been reading it regularly for a few years now.
Mr. Glass
“…….Despite the failure of revolution everywhere but Tunisia, outside powers seized with alacrity on Syrian dissent to bring down a regime whose cardinal sin was its affiliation with Shiite Iran, Hezbollah, and Russia. While Syrian protestors sought relief from a security system that inhibited their basic rights, the outsiders who rallied to them, notably Saudi Arabia and Qatar, hardly stood as models of freedom and elected government. Syrian activists at first demanded reforms within the system and later a change of leadership without destroying, as the U.S. had done in Iraq, the state itself. The sheikhs of Riyadh and Doha, however, wanted to replace Bashar al-Assad with someone from the majority Sunni community who would enforce a style of dictatorship closer to their own Wahhabi beliefs and hostile to Iran……”
You gotta be fucking kidding Mr. Glass. Inhibited their basic rights? You mean with tanks, artillery, helicopter gunships and war planes? You get the impression from reading this paragraph that Bashar al-Assad was just a western educated, innocent bystander to the revolution in Syria. And you just have to love how you refer to “a few basic rights” – in a brutal police state. Amnesty International (May, 2011) recommended that Assad be referred to the ICC for war crimes – for using his military to attack innocent protesters. The initial blood bath had nothing to do with Doha or Riyadh. That was all Assad. He made the choice to use his military to crush the largely peaceful protests associated with the Arab Spring. The Saudis and Qatar (with US help) “pitched in” to arm the rebels next. Without a doubt, the Saudis and Qatar wanted to replace Assad, but the main focus was undercutting the regional reach and power of Iran. That same proxy war has played out in several countries including Iraq, Syria and Yemen.
And where is imperialist Russia in all of this? According to you, Mr. Glass, “Whenever Assad’s back is against the wall, Russia and Iran pitch in with more help”. Is that what you call the massive bombing campaign in East Aleppo – and targeting hospitals, clinics and aid convoys – pitching in? Amnesty International calls it WAR CRIMES, but to an extreme advocate like you, the correct terminology is “pitching in”. The Assad regime has a list of war crimes that would stretch across Syria, and Russia is currently bombing East Aleppo into the Stone Age killing hundreds of civilians. Assad is responsible for most of the war crimes and most of the murder of civilians – still in progress.
Speaking about “only” cardinal sins, who really was behind the assassination of (Sunni) Rafik Hariri – the former Prime Minister of Lebanon – who opposed foreign troops on Lebanese soil (just coincidentally, Syrian by the way)? A couple of low Hezbollah operatives have been implicated, but who is going to take out such an important Sunni figure without the approval of the maligned Assad? Assad was forced to withdraw his military from Lebanon and the US cut-off diplomatic relations with the (normally) compassionate Assad after the assassination. Additionally, “innocent” Assad allowed the flow of weapons through Syria from Iran to arm Hezbollah. I am sure that if Assad would have known, he would have been shocked. The Hamas “embassy” was located in Damascus. Indeed, Assad the murderer supported terrorism against Israel – plane and simple. Those are also cardinal sins except to the radical left.
@ Craig
So by that standard, did the US commit any WAR CRIMES when it invaded and engaged in a massive bombing campaign in, well, all of Iraq, illegally kidnapped, imprisoned and tortured thousands? How about its bombing of MSF hospitals? How about its arming in the 80s of what came to be Al Qaeda? Or arming and training South American death squads who threw nuns out of helicopters and assassinated democratically elected leaders? Or how about the MASSIVE BOMBING of Cambodia and Laos? I mean I could go on but you’re simply to intellectually and morally dishonest to even engage your hypocrisy.
I mean really you are so insufferably stupid, monumentally hypocritical, total self-unaware, ill-informed and utterly utterly utterly predictable, that it really defies any reasonable explanation why you would even show up here, ever. As if you are persuading anybody of anything.
Shorter Craig: “Oooohhhh everybody agrees with me but the radical left (always undefined), yet I’m such a fucking moron I can’t even link to proof in support of any of my purported opinions or assertions or even do something as simple as learn to blockquote my world salads. But hey notwithstanding that I’ve got a real deep deep meaningful understanding of US and world history.”
We fucking get it there Mr. faux humanitarian cold warrior–Russia and Iran are the Axis of Evil in the World and the US is the Brightest Shining Beacon of Light on the Hill the world has ever ever ever known (just like the Romans trying to bring peace, prosperity and “civilization” to the world).
The US also fire bombed Dresden and Tokyo – and dropped nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And Mona calls me the whataboutery king? Do you have any disagreement with what I posted about this article? I understand fully what the US has done elsewhere – but this article is about Syria. Deal with that first. Otherwise, fuck off, OK?
And if America had lost instead of won, they would have been at Nuremberg instead of the Germans, you fucking moron.
It’s not about “whataboutery” you fucking moron, it’s about hypocrisy. It’s about lack of coherent principles as a nation. It’s about propagandizing people that we are doing “humanitarianism” through war. Seriously, only the dumbest most misinformed dullard like you could not understand those simple ideas. The “best of nominal intentions” does not absolve anyone from the immoral acts they do. Is that a complicated moral or logical concept for someone like you? Presumably it is.
Yes all of it, that’s why I think you are colossal moron who can neither link nor blockquote or otherwise support any of your opinions, ever, with anything remotely resembling proof, coherent logic, or coherent logic and reason. And everybody has been taking apart your drivel for months if not years. It’s pathetic sophistry at its finest. And at this point it is beneath me to waste my time doing what I’ve done repeatedly over the last couple of years, which is debunk with links your idiotic opinions.
I’ve been dealing, with links and argument, with Syria for months in every piece on the topic. Assuming you bother to read comments of others for comprehension.
So how about let’s just get this out of our systems right now, I think you are fucking moron who probably never attended college and hasn’t read a history book that isn’t a coffee table decontextualized peace of propagandistic shit. That’s the only way I can possibly deduce that someone could be as dumb, misinformed, propagandized and self-righteous about the “goodness” of America as you are (or Israel, or torture, or spying or just about any fucking topic you’ve ever weighed in on, ever).
rrheard
“…….Yes all of it, that’s why I think you are colossal moron who can neither link nor blockquote or otherwise support any of your opinions, ever, with anything remotely resembling proof, coherent logic, or coherent logic and reason. And everybody has been taking apart your drivel for months if not years. It’s pathetic sophistry at its finest. And at this point it is beneath me to waste my time doing what I’ve done repeatedly over the last couple of years, which is debunk with links your idiotic opinions……”
Where’s the beef, rrheard? You disagree with everything, but are unable to specify anything. It’s fairly difficult to call someone a moron when that is all you have to offer. Shit or get off of the pot, or take Mona’s advice.
“Assad the murderer supported terrorism against Israel – plane and simple”
Would love to hear your opinion on Amnesty International when they critiqued the last “bombing campaign” of besieged Gaza. At least in Aleppo, civilians are free to leave (if the militants allow it) unlike Gaza where basically its like shooting fish in a barrel.
Homemade Hamas rockets are laughable compared to the missiles being supplied to the Jihadists around Aleppo on the latest offensive (Oct 29 2016). So please explain how Amnesty got it all wrong when Israel was bombing UN schools and power plants with US bombs, yet now has credibility in Syria. Besieged Gaza was razed over a few bottle rockets by the Zionist war criminal Netanyahu making it indistinguishable from Aleppo.
Compare Hamas rebels with the Jaish al-Fatah rebel coalition of Aleppo led by the Nusra front. Both fire rockets. Hamas make their own but the most powerful coalition led by al-Qaeda of Syria are being supplied with Grad rockets with a 40 Km range. Hamas get bombed by US supplied bombs while Jaish al Fateh get bombed because they use US weapons ! Both war criminals Assad/Netanyahu drop leaflets warning civilians to leave knowing fully that they are being used as human shields. Both rebel groups fire rockets from civilian areas and get a response from the Israeli/Syrian air-force (Hamas rockets are more or less glorified fireworks-dumb bombs of the rocket world).
So if you really want to have a discussion on who supports terrorism, start with the US, who on one hand supplies the means to sustain the siege of Gaza while in Aleppo it supports the moderate caliphate seekers.
The State Department keeps saying the bombing of Aleppo is driving the moderates into the hands of the extremists, what about Gaza ? What did Amnesty think of Bibi’s last slaughter of Gaza ?
This is a rather bizarre glossing-over of much relevant history:
??? Gosh, what happened from 1991-2011? Perhaps that has some bearing on the current situation? Let’s break it down:
1) With the collapse of the Soviet Union by 1991 and the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact, the U.S. and its NATO partners had two choices: dissolve NATO and pursue a peace dividend, or expand NATO and seek a “to the victors go the spoils” attitude. The latter choice was made; eastern Europe and Central Asian ex-Soviet satellites were to be brought into the NATO “sphere of influence” – and their natural resources, especially oil, were to be used to enrich bankers in Wall Street, London, Zurich, etc.
2) This agenda was spelled out by the neoconservative PNAC (Project for a New American Century) in 1998, and continues to this day, now promoted by neoliberal think tanks like CNAS (Center for a New American Security); these two groups have close alliances with the Bush and Clinton circles, who are now more or less merged. A key element of their agenda was to turn Iraq, Syria and Iran into client states of western interests, in the model of Saudi Arabia, Israel, Egypt, etc.
3) This agenda began to collapse in 2003 when Russia under Putin rejected an ExxonMobil proposal to take a controlling share in Yukos, the Russian state oil company, and began imprisoning and charging the Russian oligarchs who had allied themselves with Swiss, British and American banksters. The whole “Putin is Hitler” line, which Hillary Clinton has been flogging so much lately, dates back to that event.
4) Syria itself over this period had pursued a fairly independent path, but had tried to exert influence in Lebanon in opposition to Israeli agendas while also cooperating with both Iran and the United States (many terrorism suspects were renditioned to Syria for torture after 9/11, for example). A major issue was the assassination of Harriri in Lebanon in 2006. The best source on that is Robert Fisk’s Great War for Civilization. At the same time, Syria was impacted by the massive flood of Iraqi refugees from the neocon invasion of Iraq (which was supposed to be stage one of the PNAS plan, then next stages being the invasions of Syria and Iran).
5) That more or less takes things up to 2009. What is entirely neglected in almost every American media discussion of Syria (including the Intercept) is that in 2009, the Qatar/Saudi/American axis went to Assad and proposed a trans-Syria pipeline to bring gas from the huge gas field Iran and Qatar side on top of to the Mediterranean. (And this is a key element of the PNAS/CNAS plan for eastern Europe, Central Asia and the Middle East – control oil and gas delivery to Europe to enrich the American Empire system – in Afghanistan, Georgia, Ukraine, etc.)
6) Assad turned them down, and instead in 2010 agreed to a deal with Russia and Iran to build a pipeline that would lead from Iran across Iraq to Syria and onto the Mediterranean; pressure to raise sanctions on Iran had been increasing (despite all the Iranian nuclear weapon hype) and Europe wanted access to Iranian gas. As anyone can see, immediately after this deal was signed, Saudi Arabia and Qatar began feeding arms and money to ISIS, and with the hijacking of the Arab Spring pro-democracy movement, the CIA and Israel and Turkey joined in and the overthow Assad effort was in full swing by 2012. For some more detail:
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2012/02/20/commentary/how-the-arab-spring-was-hijacked/
That was the Arab Spring – crushed in U.S. client states like Bahrain due to its threat to the Saudi and Qatari monarchies (who could have been replaced by parliamentary democracies) – and co-opted by intelligence agencies like the CIA and Saudi money in Libya and Syria in the name of covert regime change games pushed by Hillary Clinton and her neocon/neolib pals – the result? Disaster, bloodshed, the world’s biggest refugee crisis since WWII.
This history is ignored here at the Intercept just as at NPR, or the New York Times, or the Washington Post, or the CNN-MSNBC-FOX cable shows, etc. So it takes some time to explain it, even in outline. But, obviously, Russia played no role in the current destabilization of the Middle East; indeed their intervention in Syria helped prevent the psychotic ISIS/Al Qaeda forces from overrunning Syria (an outcome Israel was cheering for, as well as Saudi Arabia). They played key roles in destroying ISIS oil smuggling routes (which used Kurdish oil routes through Turkey to Israel). They’ve suggested a cooperative approach to eliminating ISIS, which the U.S. has rejected, as the U.S. is still pursuing overthrow of Assad as per the PNAC/CNAS American Empire playbook.
This site really has a problem discussing this honestly – perhaps because its owner, Omidyar, has a background in Ukraine supporting the U.S. PNAC/CNAS agenda there, by helping finance (or serving as a conduit) for the destablization of Ukraine, via the Omidyar Network, USAID, and the State Department? Kind of like how the Russian oligarchs behaved in their day. And no, this isn’t “Russian propaganda”, it’s just what any fairly well-informed outside observer would conclude from looking honestly at the facts.
Actually, this ^^^ is a book review. Perhaps reading the book itself, before making such judgments, would be a good idea.
Your comment is completely welcome photo. I think some of your response is fantasy and conspiracy theories (PNAC, for example), but it is more than worthwhile to post this for discussion rather than allow Mona’s biggest ass kisser to determine the direction of discussion on this thread. You definitely have brought some good points to past discussions.
Thanks for all the info. I agree with you that Russia likely saved the region from more chaos, but in my view, they could bomb less and call out more the Gulf states & EU-US. I’d rather have more diplomatic war and less real war. Was this new leash of bombs in Aleppo really needed? Again, I’m not discounting your argument on Russia providing more stabilization than chaos, but it would be nice to see a stop or at least sharp slow down to Russia’s bombings.
It could be argued, as this article attempts to do, that foreign intervention in Syria has had drawbacks as well as benefits. But the foreigners were invited in by the Syrians themselves. As the recent article by Mr. Hussein demonstrates, the original protestors from Syria now spend their time sipping tea in Turkish cafes and calling on the world to solve their problems for them.
The obvious solution is to partition the country into a Russian controlled area with Assad as its nominal leader and an American controlled area, led by either Al Qaeda or ISIS. This hasn’t happened because the US is dithering and making overtures towards both of those groups. But the time has come for the United States to act decisively. It really doesn’t matter which side it picks; both Al Qaeda and ISIS are fixer uppers, who will need a facelift before they can be paraded in public as America’s newest ally. One way to accomplish this would be to give one of them a seat on the UN Human Rights Council, currently presided over by US ally Saudi Arabia. Luckily, a spot has just opened up with the expulsion of Russia from the council. So the timing may be opportune to move decisively to resolve the humanitarian tragedy in Syria.
It’s really time to stop pretending that nation-states are the most important actors in these games. Multinational corporations have become bigger movers of money than nation-states, and Syria is no different. Consider ExxonMobil’s move into Iraqi Kurdistan in 2011, and imagine how much money is flowing to Kurds from Exxon:
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-kurdistan-specialrepor-idUSKCN0JH18720141203
This is common around the world – as Steve Coll noted in “The Private Empire of ExxonMobil, the ‘country’ of Chad gets some $10 million a year in US aid – and Exxon gives them (the ruling clan, that is) $700 million in cash for the oil concession, much of which ends up in Swiss banks in case the dictator’s family ever has to flee to Europe.
Likewise, Lockheed-Martin and United Technologies and Boeing and Raytheon are calling the shots with respect to Saudi Arabia; Obama and Clinton are just tools in this profit maximization strategy.
So, the next step is obvious: private corporate armies to fight the wars on the corporation’s behalf. Yes, this is expensive and the corporations would rather outsource the fighting to poor Americans conscripted into nation-state military forces, but there’s less and less appetite among the American public for that – so why not go with full-scale mercenary corporate warfare? Blackwater 2.0? Rather than vague notions of “patriotism”, just offer the mercenary fighting forces a percentage of the profits from their conquests, that’s a good incentive.
Nation-states are overrated, really. In the next iteration of fascism and world war, shouldn’t the corporations, instead of the states, be in the driver’s seat?
I don’t have any problem with corporations being in the drivers seat, but nation states are the vehicle that will get them to their destination. To reach that destination, the vehicle and driver are both necessary. The relationship is a commensal one and I see little benefit in arguing whether the driver or the vehicle plays the more important role. When I say ‘the white ford just cut in front of me’, I’m not absolving the driver of the vehicle of responsibility.
“‘the white ford just cut in front of me’,”
Isn’t that how Nixon described things …
I hear driverless 18-wheelers are currently being road-tested, Duce, and how Uber’s also planning to eventually field driverless taxis.
Your white ford’s quickly become driver and vehicle in one – as the largest corporations already fancy themselves inevitably “owning” and actually running the nation states deeply indebted to them. They aspire to be overlords in Led Zepp’s “Immigrant Song,” seeking to leave their indelible mark of greed on the world. Why, Greece could someday officially become a DeutschBankland while Argentina is renamed GoldmanSachsinia – and a somewhat Mussolini-like vision of fascism finally realized.
I dislike encouraging off-topic discussions as this site gets damned irritating sometimes.
At any rate. you retained more from that book than I did, but Steve Coll’s book was masterful.
Isn’t is always known, but often sublimated, that it is always the corporations that somehow request regime change? We were pushing democracy in Syria in 1949. Cui bono?
I will answer my own question, though. Often. Ultimately.
i don’t get this strategy of treating russia as if it’s luxembourg. putin has said he’s prepared to use tactical nukes if necessary. if the us thinks he’s bluffing, we’re doomed
Yes, which is why Clinton is a far bigger threat to the world than Trump, which is really saying something.