Like most people, I’ve long known that factual falsehoods are routinely published in major media outlets. But as I’ve pointed out before, nothing makes you internalize just how often it really happens, how completely their editorial standards so often fail, like being personally involved in a story that receives substantial media coverage. I cannot count how many times I’ve read or heard claims from major media outlets about the Snowden story that I knew, from firsthand knowledge, were a total fabrication.
We have a perfect example of how this happens from the New York Times today, in a book review by Nicholas Lemann, the Pulitzer-Moore professor of journalism at Columbia University as well as a longtime staff writer for the New Yorker. Lemann is reviewing a new book by Edward J. Epstein — the longtime neocon, right-wing Cold Warrior, WSJ op-ed page writer, and Breitbart contributor — which basically claims Snowden is a Russian spy.
The book has been widely discredited even before its release as it is filled with demonstrable lies. The usually rhetorically restrained Bart Gellman, whose work on the Snowden story at the Washington Post won the 2014 Pulitzer Prize for Public Service, called the book “bad faith work” that is filled with “distortions” and “baseless and bizarro claims,” several of which he documented. I’ve documented some of the other obvious falsehoods in the book.
Suffice to say, so fringe is Epstein’s conspiracy claim that even top NSA and CIA officials — who despise Snowden and have repeatedly attempted to disparage him — have rejected the book’s central conspiracy theory that Snowden has worked with the Kremlin. In 2014, Epstein, citing what he claimed a government official told him “off the record,” wrote my favorite sentence about this whole affair, one that I often quoted in my speeches to great audience laughter: “There are only three possible explanations for the Snowden heist: 1) It was a Russian espionage operation; 2) It was a Chinese espionage operation; or 3) It was a joint Sino-Russian operation.” He’s apparently now opted for Door No. 1.
Lemann himself is highly dismissive of the book’s central accusations about Snowden and does a perfectly fine job of explaining how the book provides no convincing evidence for its key conspiracies:
Epstein proves none of this. “How America Lost Its Secrets” is an impressively fluffy and golden-brown wobbly soufflé of speculation, full of anonymous sourcing and suppositional language like “it seems plausible to believe” or “it doesn’t take a great stretch of the imagination to conclude.”
Lemann’s review is worth reading to see what a farce this book is, and especially — for all those authoritarian liberal New Cold Warriors tempted to embrace the book because it smears Snowden as a Russian operative — to understand who Epstein is and the ideological agenda to which he’s long been devoted.
Nonetheless, there is one statement in Lemann’s review that is misleading in the extreme and another that is so blatantly, factually false that it’s mind-boggling it got approved by a NYT editor and, presumably, a fact-checker. But it is worth looking at because it illustrates how easily this happens. Here’s the first one:
Snowden, Julian Assange of WikiLeaks, and their immediate circle of allies come from a radically libertarian hacker culture that, most of the time, doesn’t believe there should be an NSA at all, whether or not it remains within the confines of its legal charter.
Though ambiguous about who exactly it is describing, this passages strongly implies that Snowden “doesn’t believe there should be an NSA at all.” Snowden believes nothing of the kind. In fact, he believes exactly the opposite: that the NSA performs a vital function and many of its programs are legitimate and important. He has said this over and over. That’s why he wanted to work for the agency. It’s why he refused to dump all the documents he took and instead gave them to journalists, demanding that they only publish those that exposed information necessary to inform the public debate: precisely because he did not want to destroy NSA programs he believes are justifiable.
It’s unclear who Lemann means by Snowden’s “immediate circle of allies,” but I personally have never heard anyone who qualifies as such express the cartoon view Lemann has manufactured here. What I’ve heard from both Snowden and his “immediate circle of allies” has been quite consistent: that — as is true of all countries — it is legitimate for NSA to engage in targeted surveillance (i.e., monitoring specific individuals whom a court, based on evidence, concludes are legitimate targets) but inherently illegitimate to engage in suspicion-less mass surveillance (i.e., subjecting entire populations to monitoring). Everything Snowden has said and done is the antithesis of this absolutist abolish-the-NSA view Lemann concocted (indeed, Snowden has been harshly criticized by actual radicals for being too protective and supportive of NSA’s functions, as have the journalists who worked with him for refusing to dump the whole archive).
But while that passage from Lemann is misleading, his final paragraph is outright false as a clear factual matter:
This time around, [Epstein’s] concern seems to be half with the celebratory closed loop between Snowden and the journalists who covered him, and half with the causes and consequences of a major security breach at the NSA. The heart of the matter is the second of these concerns, not the first. In the Snowden affair, the press didn’t decide what stayed secret, and neither did Congress, the White House or the NSA. Snowden did.
This is the exact opposite of the truth. It is a fundamentally false description of what happened. Most amazingly, the New York Times knows firsthand that this claim it just published is false because of its direct involvement in reporting the Snowden archive.
Not a single document that saw the light of day was published because Snowden decided it should be: literally not one. Snowden played no decision-making role whatsoever in determining which documents were published and which were withheld. What happened was exactly the opposite of what Lemann told New York Times readers: It was the press, not Snowden, that decided what stayed secret and what was reported.
After giving the journalists with whom he worked the documents and asking them to withhold those that could harm innocent people or destroy legitimate programs, Snowden lost all ability to control what was and was not published. As is true of most leaks — from the routine to the spectacular — those publishing decisions rested solely in the hands of the media outlets and their teams of reporters, editors, and lawyers. Every Snowden document ever published was published by a media outlet with teams of professionals, which means that not one Snowden document was ever published without multiple reporters, editors, and lawyers jointly deciding that the public interest was served by its publication.
The New York Times knows firsthand that Lemann’s claim is false because that paper possessed a large portion of the Snowden archive and published all of its stories without ever obtaining Snowden’s permission. Indeed, Snowden at times vehemently disagreed with the decisions made by the NYT and other outlets to publish certain material.
As Snowden told Time: “There have of course been some stories where my calculation of what is not public interest differs from that of reporters, but it is for this precise reason that publication decisions were entrusted to journalists and their editors.” As the ACLU’s Ben Wizner, who represents Snowden, explained: “He didn’t want and didn’t think that he should have the responsibility to decide which of these documents should be public.” Anyone who has even casually followed this story knows this was the journalist-driven process that determined which documents got published.
Ironically, the most controversial Snowden stories — the type his critics cite as the ones that should not have been published because they exposed sensitive national security secrets — were often the ones the NYT itself decided to publish, such as its very controversial exposé on how NSA spied on China’s Huawei. It was the NYT’s David Sanger and Nicole Perlroth and their editors — not Snowden — who decided that this program should be exposed. That same dynamic drove every story based on Snowden documents.
Even if one wants to argue that Snowden bears some moral responsibility for exposure of this program by virtue of having made these documents available to news outlets, it is undeniably true — to reverse Lemann’s formulation — that Snowden didn’t decide what stayed secret. The press did. As the ACLU’s Wizner put it simply about Lemann’s review: “The last lines are just false.”
(One great irony highlights this dynamic: In September, Perlroth — after exploiting Snowden’s leaks for her own benefit — argued that her own source should not be pardoned on the ground that he leaked documents “that had nothing to do with privacy violations.” But it was she, Nicole Perlroth — not Snowden — who decided to expose, on the front page of the NYT, the NSA’s spying activities on Huawei.)
How can the New York Times allow Lemann to make such a blatantly false claim about how this reporting took place and who made the decisions about what should and should not be secret? One of the great benefits of new media — of online reporting — is that one can provide proof of one’s claims in the form of links (as I’ve done here), so that readers can determine if journalistic claims have evidentiary support. That is such a vital exercise because, as Lemann and the NYT just demonstrated, it is so often the case that the most influential media outlets publish factually false statements using the most authoritative tones. This episode illustrates yet again why everyone is well-advised not to believe assertions from any authority or institution that are unaccompanied by evidence you can see and evaluate for yourself.
* * * * *
As is true of many enduring news stories, there are several zombie myths associated with the Snowden story that will never die no matter how often they are debunked. Perhaps the most annoyingly persistent is that Snowden said at the start that he was only exposing privacy violations on Americans, so that one can prove he’s a liar by demonstrating that he also leaked documents pertaining to spying on foreigners.
But Snowden never said anything like that. From the beginning, he always said the exact opposite: that he greatly values the privacy rights of Americans but also values the privacy rights of the 95 percent of the world’s population called “non-Americans.” As Snowden said in his first online interview with readers that I conducted back in June 2013: “Suspicionless surveillance does not become OK simply because it’s only victimizing 95 percent of the world instead of 100 percent.” That Snowden said he only wanted to expose privacy violations on Americans is just one of those falsehoods that no matter how many times you disprove it, commentators for some reason feel perfectly entitled to keep repeating it.
Glenn… usually, you do such a find job with things. Not this time:
“…it is undeniably true — to reverse Lemann’s formulation — that Snowden didn’t decide what stayed secret. The press did.”
That is wrong as the day is long. Snowden most certainly decided what stayed secret, by deciding which documents he would _not_ take.
That’s something I don’t see much talk about: The “shape” of “The Take.”
Mike, how pedant of you, but your ignorance serves you well. Greenwald is talking about the docs that were released and from that point on the custody was left with the journalists.
Being a man of the world, living in Brazil with a Brazilian, Greenwald must have picked up one of the peculiarities of the Portuguese language: the occult subject, where once mentioned, the subject is, therefore the issue of the conversation and never again repeated.
I guess it would be outrageous for Lemann to say and for the NYT to publish that Eric Snowden believes there should be no NSA.
But Lemann did NOT say that, and the NYT did NOT publish that.
Rather, Lemann specifically said that Snowden comes from a “radically libertarian hacker culture” which “most of the time” does not believe there should be an NSA.
Whether Snowden comes from the radically libertarian hacker culture is a matter of characterization. Whether that culture tends to believe, most of the time, that there should be no NSA, is also a matter of characterization.
To say that the NYT has published a “factual” falsehood, I think, is incorrect. And your outrage over it seems, to me, to be misplaced.
Read the article again with more attention please. The NYT’s factual falsehood cited by Greenwald does not pertain to that subject at all.
It’s EDWARD, not Eric.
This piece of writing is so full of grammatical errors/spelling errors & typos that I just can’t believe it. I guess I have a belief system that true journalism would be not only fact-checked but spell-checked and edited. I see these same type of errors in our city paper and local neighborhood papers as well. Am I expecting too much, in the age of computers? I don’t remember catching mistakes in other newspapers 40 or 20 years ago. Maybe it’s a new thing, that it’s acceptable now, and I’m no longer “with it” enough to know that.
commas don’t precede the word, “and”
excuse my punctuation or not
you will only make yourself unhappy trying to fix the world’s grammatical flaws
i suspect there is a deeper-seated problem with your personality that is screaming to get out
I just watched Oliver Stone’s film Snowden and thank Mr Greenwald for his depicted role in really pushing the Guardian into quickly publishing the ubiquitous eaves-dropping of NSA.
Congratulations.
While I am at it I should also thank Stone for what appears to be a meticulously researched biography. It gave more background than ‘Citizen Four.’
Stone has one senior spook make a point that should be front and center of the debate – he says the people do not want freedom they want security. That’s something the Intercept might mull.
There is one thing about the barley veiled smarmy condescension Greenwald shows toward Assange – Assange gets the leaks what has Greenwald received in the equivalent amount of time? (I know about Greenwald’s column supporting Assange – it is irrelevant.)
Lots of leaking going on – just not to the Intercept.
It is clear who the leakers trust.
Greenwald is not exactly an innocent bystander in the Snowden case. Indeed, one might argue, it is now his interest to divert our gaze from the fact Snowden is now living in Russia, and got there with more than a little help from the FSB..
Cui bono Glenn?
Good point. Isn’t Snowden’s lawyer ex-FSB?
Snowden is in Russia because it had the guts to offer him sanctuary when other countries would not. It’s a mark of shame that he had to flee the country he served by revealing critically important information. In other countries, not just Russia, he’s viewed as a hero for the courage of his convictions and blowing one of the most important whistles of our age.
There is no evidence that he landed in Russia through any agencies other than desperation and serendipity.
The US government’s agencies forced Snowden to Russia and continue to act to prevent him from leaving.
“Snowden lost all ability to control what was and was not published”
You say this as if it is some sort of absolution for Snowden and/or yourself. It isn’t. You still divulged information damaging to national security and you did so willfully. I don’t know what “public service” you think you are performing when you divulge information about hacking into Chinese cyber operations to the South China Morning Press.
http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1266777/exclusive-snowden-safe-hong-kong-more-us-cyberspying-details-revealed
This, by the way, is exactly why Chelsea Manning is guilty of espionage and not a whistleblower. She did not in any way disseminate what she divulged to foreign parties based on some identifiable wrongdoing. She dumped the documents en masse and so did Snowden. Open and shut case of guilt.
No. The rest of your comment is almost all factually wrong, as well.
Was the information released?
Yes.
Was it provided complicity by Edward Snowden without editorial filtering?
Yes.
Did information related to Chinese spying serve the American public?
No.
Was there any consideration by the leaker (Snowden) for the potential damage to national security when leaking this information?
No.
The secrecy of those documents was not destroyed by Snowden or Manning. Their secrecy was destroyed by idiots in the national security apparatus who put them on a network where 500,000 people could access them!!! I mean, when your secrets are so damn public that people are out with the press giving them away, what does that tell me about your information security? It tells me that China and Russia and Israel and France and probably even Brazil and Argentina each have had a guy who ran some scripts and sent them some flash drives long before this stuff ever showed up on the news.
The only way that outrage about this destruction of “secrecy” makes sense is if the goal really is ONLY to keep the data “secret” from the American and foreign friendly civilian public, not from state enemies. But that is not secrecy at all — that is purely censorship. It is not deserving of even perfunctory respect.
I agree. The vast majority of the Snowden leaks, after all, deal with foreign-intelligence operations. If Snowden is to be believed, he stole thousands of NSA files from the Hawaii facility and then distributed them to journalists, entrusting them to leak only operations that raised civil liberties issues.
Funny. What did Snowden think was going to happen? The newspapers all knew that these stories would only sell paper after paper, regardless of whether they dealt with programs like PRISM or with fairly routine, unsurprising and perfectly legitimate operations against foreign-intelligence targets.
Of course, according to Greenwald and his fans, all of this is perfectly OK, an anybody that raises objections to it is just a mindless establishment hack.
So I learned that the NYTimes lies. Stop the presses.
Glenn makes the claim that Snowden decided which secrets to share, and then makes the claim that Snowden left that up to the NYTimes. You can’t have it both ways. This, coupled with statements interpreted in a way to prove a point, Glenn writes an excellent article showing how easy it is to make false claims.
More fake news.
The quote isn’t fake.
But why quote a man who sprays threats like a tiny garden hose?
At least there’s no subtext here.
While you’re looking at the New York Times, any chance you can take a swing at this softball?
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/10/books/review-nicotine-memoir-gregor-hens.html
This beautifully written book review is enough to make me almost feel like trying a cigarette, and by golly I loathed the stink of those things even back in the days when people were smoking all over the place. Reading through it was tremendously amusing for the same reason the World Trade Center attacks seemed funny to me when they happened, because there is simply something comical about over the top, unapologetic depravity. (If you’re not wired that way, my condolences) For example, the review begins with the most splendid salesmanship I’ve heard in ages: “The best cigarette you will ever smoke, Gregor Hens writes in his new memoir, “Nicotine,” is the relapse cigarette… Which of course is bullshit; I’ve spoken to ex-smokers and they’ve told me they do get past the addiction in a while, and then other people smoking actually bothers them.
Anyway, if you folks can Follow the Money and shed some light on what seem like ever more enthusiastic initiatives of the tobacco marketers, including this newsvertisement, I think it could make interesting reading. This year the tobacco companies will kill more people than all the terrorists put together, just like every other year.
I have a high degree of confidence that the Russian government was behind the hack of the emails stolen from the DNC based on the existing descriptions of APT28 and APT29 by various Cyber-security experts like Crowdstrike (“Bears in the Midst: Intrusion into the Democratic National Committee”), F-Secure (“The Dukes, Seven Years of Russian Espionage”) and Fireeye (“SPECIAL REPORT APT28: A WINDOW INTO RUSSIA S CYBER ESPIONAGE OPERATIONS?”).
All have extensive experience with the hackers in question. Part of the executive summary of the Fireeye report is shown below:
“……….In this paper we discuss a threat group whose malware is already fairly well-known in the cybersecurity community. This group, unlike the China-based threat actors we track, does not appear to conduct widespread intellectual property theft for economic gain. Nor have we observed the group steal and profit from financial account information. The activity that we profile in this paper appears to be the work of a skilled team of developers and operators collecting intelligence on defense and geopolitical issues – intelligence that would only be useful to a government. We believe that this is an advanced persistent threat (APT) group engaged in espionage against political and military targets including the country of Georgia, Eastern European governments and militaries, and European security organizations since at least 2007. They compile malware samples with Russian language settings during working hours consistent with the time zone of Russia’s major cities, including Moscow and St. Petersburg. While we don’t have pictures of a building, personas to reveal, or a government agency to name, what we do have is evidence of longstanding, focused operations that indicate a government sponsor – specifically, a government based in Moscow. We are tracking this group as APT28……..”
The reports highlight APT28 and APT29 cyber attacks.
Supposedly credible “human rights activist” Craig Murray is often touted as “proof” that US intelligence is lying and the theft of the emails was an inside job (a leak). According to Marcie Wheeler (Empty Wheel blog, “Craig Murray’s Description of WikiLeaks’ Sources” https://www.emptywheel.net/?p=56544), Murray admitted he did not meet “with the person with legal access”:
“………Importantly, Murray admits that “It’s perfectly possible that WikiLeaks themselves don’t know what is going on,” which admits one possibility I’ve [Marcie Wheeler] always suspected: that whoever dealt the documents did so in a way that credibly obscured their source………….Murray admits he did not meet with the person with legal access; he instead met with an intermediary. That means the intermediary may have made false claims about the provenance……..” my insert in brackets
So it is possible that Julian Assange and Craig Murray did not meet with the “leaker” – or may have no idea who the “leaker” was. On the other hand, Assange may well know or strongly suspect who leaked the DNC emails. Whether Assange is just protecting the Russian government or colluded with the Russian government are questions which should be investigated. There is a lot at stake for Assange and his credibility – which has already taken a big hit.
No one doubts that US intelligence can be wrong, but not in this case. The crazy stories in the news about Russia only obfuscate and deflect from the reality that Russia hacked the DNC to help elect Trump.
I have a high degree of confidence that the Russian government was behind the hack of the emails stolen from the DNC based on the existing descriptions of APT28 and APT29 by various Cyber-security experts like Crowdstrike (“Bears in the Midst: Intrusion into the Democratic National Committee”), F-Secure (“The Dukes, Seven Years of Russian Espionage”) and Fireeye (“SPECIAL REPORT APT28: A WINDOW INTO RUSSIA S CYBER ESPIONAGE OPERATIONS?”).
https://www.crowdstrike.com/blog/bears-midst-intrusion-democratic-national-committee/
https://www.f-secure.com/documents/996508/1030745/dukes_whitepaper.pdf
https://www.fireeye.com/content/dam/fireeye-www/global/en/current-threats/pdfs/rpt-apt28.pdf
All have extensive experience with the hackers in question. Part of the executive summary of the Fireeye report is shown below:
“……….In this paper we discuss a threat group whose malware is already fairly well-known in the cybersecurity community. This group, unlike the China-based threat actors we track, does not appear to conduct widespread intellectual property theft for economic gain. Nor have we observed the group steal and profit from financial account information. The activity that we profile in this paper appears to be the work of a skilled team of developers and operators collecting intelligence on defense and geopolitical issues – intelligence that would only be useful to a government. We believe that this is an advanced persistent threat (APT) group engaged in espionage against political and military targets including the country of Georgia, Eastern European governments and militaries, and European security organizations since at least 2007. They compile malware samples with Russian language settings during working hours consistent with the time zone of Russia’s major cities, including Moscow and St. Petersburg. While we don’t have pictures of a building, personas to reveal, or a government agency to name, what we do have is evidence of longstanding, focused operations that indicate a government sponsor – specifically, a government based in Moscow. We are tracking this group as APT28……..”
Supposedly credible “human rights activist” Craig Murray is often touted as “proof” that US intelligence is lying and the theft of the emails was an inside job (a leak). According to Marcie Wheeler (Empty Wheel blog, “Craig Murray’s Description of WikiLeaks’ Sources” https://www.emptywheel.net/?p=56544), Murray admitted he did not meet “with the person with legal access”:
“………Importantly, Murray admits that “It’s perfectly possible that WikiLeaks themselves don’t know what is going on,” which admits one possibility I’ve [Marcie Wheeler] always suspected: that whoever dealt the documents did so in a way that credibly obscured their source………….Murray admits he did not meet with the person with legal access; he instead met with an intermediary. That means the intermediary may have made false claims about the provenance……..” my insert in brackets
So it is possible (if not likely) that Julian Assange and Craig Murray did not meet with the “leaker” – or may have no idea who the “leaker” was. On the other hand, Assange may well know who leaked the DNC emails. Whether Assange is just protecting the Russian government or colluded with the Russian government are questions which should be investigated.
The crazy stories in the news about Russia only obfuscate and deflect from the reality that Russia hacked the DNC.
“snowden must be tried and convicted by us alone”
You don’t, of course, mean “we,” for you and I would have nothing whatsoever to do with the trial and conviction. You don’t mean “us,” you mean “them,” as used in the common phrase “Us Vs. Them.” A kind of unknown, anonymous, Deep State Them.
this deep state thing is cool, totally unfocused yet all-encompassing paranoia
i need to go to the dollar store for a twelve pack of tinfoil
I think that this is one time that the redoubtable Glenn makes an unconvincing argument, although he does prove the courtier MSM reporters as both hypocrites and willing to play fast and loose with the truth. Ed did, by giving the entire trove to reporters – whose only authority is self-declared, after all, as they are elected by precisely no one – did release it in its entirety. The only brake on complete disclosure was the vagary of independent judgment. Now, I might have faith that Glenn Greenwald or some other personality knows best what I, as a member of the uninitiated public in a supposed democracy, ought to know, but it is also going to be true that judgment is really unjustified – I, like Glenn, claim to be the best judge of what I ought to know. And Glenn has no more moral authority for limiting what he already knows, from me knowing it. My moral authority, which is not inferior to his, argues for full disclosure. Really, all that is being done by governments everywhere in secrecy, ought to be known to everyone, since secrecy and deception undermine accountability and democracy. Now I know this isn’t going to happen, any more than nuclear disarmament. But at least we can acknowledge that there are calculations involved other than honesty and transparency that owe their arguments more to political calculations.
As several commenters have noted, Mr. Greenwald may have pulled his punches by characterizing this paragraph as a simple falsehood.
The alternative is that, from the point of view of the New York Times, it makes no difference whether the documents were provided to Wikileaks who would publish them all, or to the New York Times who, before publishing, would seek guidance from the US government to determine which material they should suppress and what they should redact. In either model, unauthorized people have seen the documents and so the information has been compromised. It’s like the old proverb that a secret imparted, even to just one person, is no longer a secret.
So the New York Times is making the same argument as Wikileaks. Information is either public or secret – there is no in-between of publishing some information which is in the public interest while keeping the rest secret. In Wikileak’s view, it is better (on balance) for information to be public. In the New Times’ view, it is better for it to be kept secret. So the agenda of the New York Times is to suppress information. In other words, their statement is a plea to whistleblowers not to leak them any classified documents.
How many trolls get money from the NSA to troll The Intercept? And how much money the NSA stole from the tax payers for such purposes? Mafia rules in United Snakes of America.
The fact that Snowden believes the NSA should exist discounts his narrative completely.
I call bull shit.
The post lightly [edited] for accuracy:
“[I don’t have a] clue. Journalist are journalist – not national security experts.[I am neither.] Journalist write about and distribute stories [using grammar and big words. I am] not trained in national security issues, and worse, always have a [state-approved, mainstream media espoused] political agenda which makes [anyone reading my drivel throw-up] their hands. Is there a better example on earth [of a dull-witted authoritarian hypocrite mindlessly regurgitating mainstream cant]?
Protecting [state privilege and power] is always the first priority of the [agency from which Snowden took] these documents. Ultimately, [the state] is responsible for [every thought placed in my head] even if [mainstream] journalists ultimately decide which ones were published. [After a lifetime of succumbing to their propaganda, the profound danger posed by the massive security state as revealed in] the documents [is beyond my comprehension. I can only come-up with mind-numbing platitudes unrelated to their actually content and meaning like ‘]I do believe that Snowden was sincere in his reasons to release the documents[,’ because I am] just [so] misguided.”
Reality is far stranger and more fascinating than fiction.
Kafka + GGM + Lewis Carroll could not together have cooked this up.
Plot [S|Th]ickening alert!
Emphasis added.
The world would be greatly improved by assigning John McCain as chief test pilot for severe-weather night flying of the F35.
And BuzzFeed has published the whole damned unverified thing.
If they’d said “Kremlin has been cultivating, supporting and assisting Trump for at least 6 months,” maybe I could have found it plausible, but five years?????? hahahahahaha.. gimme a break. Even god wouldn’t have that kind of foresight when it comes to trump. The guy doesn’t know if he’s running for President or the chairman of a golf course. Sure… five years… sounds really believable.
hahaha
good one Doug
That fulfiulls the literal definition of incredible. We’re to believe the Kremlin fiendishly turned its money and time to turning the “star” of “Celebrity Apprentice.” Next up from the GRU: Operation Kardashian.
For people willing to believe that Obama’s parents forged his birth certificate fifty some years ago, I find this mocking skepticism almost pathetic.
Does anyone seriously think that Russian leaders are somehow different from American leadership?
Oh wait … I see. Since Putin was once the head of the KGB,, he now lacks the foresight and the chutzpah to gather information on a rich America casino owner staying at the Hotel Kremlin.
Those Russians are sooooo stupid. Or decent. Or sticklers for rules. Or something.
If they were really so smart and so powerful, then why doesn’t Putin resurrect the old Soviet state instead of rolling helplessly on the floor floor like a no-legged bear?
Is McCain against Trump or what? Or is it just that his hate for Russians has blinded him from party loyalty?
McCain is to the Cold War what those lone Japanese troops hiding out on Pacific islands were to WWII — for him, it never ended, and never can.
Add to that the fact that he’s hardly ever seen a problem in international affairs that he didn’t think could be improved by bombing.
And he’s just a generally crazy, nasty old bastard.
I think the answer is “Yes” to both.
Because he hired Russian sex workers? Please.
Well, like AiT, I would have thought the five-year conspiracy was the bigger story but if you read the unverified report Buzzfeed has so responsibly posted, you may understand why the Graun thought the kinky sex allegations were more “explosive.”
It seems that Trump is alleged to have booked the presidential suite at the Moscow Ritz Carlton, where the hated Obamas were known to have stayed and “defiled” the bed in which they had slept by “employing prostitutes to perform a ‘golden showers’ (urination) show in front of him.”
“They” say the FSB has the video.
I don’t care if they have a diapered Trump groveling before a Dominatrix. (A Golden shower is a really a bit vanilla compared to everything that’s “out there.”) It’s sex between consenting adults and no big deal in this place and time.
>” (A Golden shower is a really a bit vanilla compared to everything that’s “out there.”)”
Dang Mona … I knew Trump as a known ‘pussy grabber’, but now I’m almost afraid to ask what’s out there!?
*And not a tear for poor Obama. I was preparing my own eulogy when I stumbled across Bro Cornel West’s sermon on the matter (and tossed my shabby work into the dustbin of history):
Pity the sad legacy of Barack Obama
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/09/barack-obama-legacy-presidency
I mean this is Donald Trump. Not a pious monk, or even a “family man” poseur politician. He’d think it cool — or at least not especially embarrassing — to be “caught” with a hot, female, adult sex worker.
I was simply suggesting why the Graun may have thought that the “most explosive” of the allegations. Remember, they’re (mostly) Brits. Nothing sells “over there” like a sex scandal.
United States Senator McCain.
WTF
hahahahah
damnit.. I have to go to bed.
That, for those who don’t know, is the esteemed senator being presented Ukraine’s Order of Freedom by candy magnate, coup plotter and puppet president Petro Poroshenko.
The box probably contains a pound of the finest Oligarch Truffles.
John looks to me as if he could strap right in and launch with afterburners flaming. Let’s find out.
this reminds me of the scene in THE FIRM when Wilford Brimley confronted Tom Cruise about how he could protect Tom from certain information about an affair in the caribbean (perpetrated by the firm).
Basically the CIA is threatening DT and telling him that the spy agencies of the world want to continue to run the planet.
blackmail, extortion and murder make the political world go ’round.
j. edgar hoover, that paragon of american rectitude (while he lived), was the master of all three.
wouldn’t we all like to read those private files known to have been in hoover’s safe upon his death? hoover’s private musings on the kennedy and king assassinations, watergate, fred hampton and mark clark, malcom x, john lennon, etc.
until the assassinations in the 60’s are solved we are all wandering in fantasyland without compass or map.
indeed that is true.
aimlessly at that.
i would also toss in the murder of Seth Rich.
i suspect collusion on that between the mossad, cia and DNC
Well, since Russian hacking/smear didn’t appear to be gaining traction, looks like additional measures were required.
This is clearly an escalation of the Establishment opposing the Trump presidency.
IMO, it’s only a matter of time after Jan 20 that there will be calls for impeachment.
The American people- to their credit- are not buying these smears. Trump is still unpopular, but people don’t trust the CIA and company.
As for the rumors, let’s not forget that a lot of the rumors and smears around Trump were spread by people connected with Ukraine.
http://www.alternet.org/media/anonymous-blacklist-promoted-washington-post-has-shocking-roots-ukrainian-fascism-eugenics-and
And it’s now hitting the mainstream.
http://www.politico.eu/article/ukrainian-efforts-to-sabotage-trump-backfire/
If starting from the premise everyone has a potential for some degree of sedition, I’m not sure they accept “suspicionless surveillance” is a thing – that actually exists.
Clearly, Big Brother’s default setting is suspect everyone.
Why? Because it knows the mind controlled, conditioned progressive left will still buy its paper no questions asked.
Reading an old Counterpunch article by Jamie Davidson, based in the UK, and now this article (as well as just about everything else Glenn Greenwald has written on this and related subjects), I’m thinking that the only aim that would make all the recent propaganda moves coherent is preparation for a new war. Will the public accept it? Can the public be persuaded to accept it? Can the public be duped into accepting it?
Can the psychology needed to sustain the war be prepared? Will that be difficult?
Does a new economic crisis need to come first?
(Did everyone else realize this already? Am I late to the party?)
Is there another explanation that accounts for the facts equally well?
http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/11/30/distortion-revisionism-the-liberal-media/
regarding snowden and state surveillance:
i have long maintained that collecting incriminating evidence and fabricating incriminating evidence are functionally equivalent in the digital era … but nobody seems to care
in a sense the leakers are asking us to believe in a world where political information still creates cause and effect, and where truth stands clearly apart from lies
Well, john, I’m not entirely certain what you mean, but I can tell you the following with “high confidence.”
If a reasonably-competent bad actor wanted to send you to prison for, say, possession of child pornography said bad actor could almost certainly fabricate the evidence of such a crime, to be found on your computer. And, unless you happened to have the resources to employ the very best computer forensics experts available, you would have a very difficult time of beating the rap.
Even if you had those gurus working for your defense, it would likely be an iffy thing.
In the digital world, offense is much easier than defense.
Sometimes I’m not sure whether, or to what extent, John is serious.
John is ruminating out loud. Cogently too. Nothing wrond with that.
Love GG, like TI, and I generally agree that sentence 2 could be, or is, misleading; however, if and to the extent journalists had the decision to decide what to reveal and what to keep secret, after Snowden gave them both the documents and more or less unfettered discretion, they had more power to decide than they had, and what power they got they got . . . from Snowden.
I approve of his doing it but I can’t say it’s a LIE that he had the power which he then gave the journalists, to decide what should be disclosed and kept secret. In a very real sense, he decided that journalists could disclose some or all of the documents, even if he didn’t decide which documents would be disclosed. So, if I had been writing the story, I might have focused, in the interest of keeping my powder dry, more on the misleading aspect and less on the lie aspect.
Then again, I’m safely not putting myself at risk in any of this, so GG doesn’t HAVE to do it my way . . . .
China and Russia Almost Definitely Have the Snowden Docs (h/t Bill Owen)
I’ve always been both amused and bemused by authoritarians having public fits of hysteria over Snowden’s revelations, as well as their accusation that he was working for a hostile foreign power. As Bruce Schneier wrote, neither China nor Russia needed Ed Snowden.
Snowden had little trouble snagging those files. It defies belief that he was the first or only to do so. What’s different where he’s concerned is the information was given to the citizens of the world, who learned the extent to which the Global Surveillance Apparatus has “targeted” us all.
Do read Schneier’s whole piece.
Absolutely right on.
Bruce’s analysis made perfect sense the day it was published and it retains its impeccable logic and clarity today.
Hacking systems, however well-secured they seem to be, or accessing data via social engineering, is comparatively easy. Defending against such intrusions is somewhere between incredibly fucking difficult and impossible.
And if that is in fact the case, and I have no doubt it is, it is the number 1 reason people should be highly motivated to want as little as possible of their “personally identifiable data” available to anyone, or any government or business, for any reason not strictly associated with the provision of government services, for medical treatment (and that should be subject to the highest level of security available to mankind) or attendant to a criminal investigation or prosecution.
We’ve really gone into a bizarro reality where every thing about a human being is categorized and commoditized, and available to be bought and sold. It really is a sickening future if things don’t change. People like Orwell (Eric Blair), Heinlein, Huxley and those sorts of folks were really only scratching the surface of how bad things could get with certain types of practices and technology, without the necessary attendant protections and moral and legal norms built in before it is too late.
Technology has its place in human endeavors. But like nuclear weapons once someone invents certain things because they can, the cat is out of the bag, and their is no stuffing it back in. So sometimes the best possible outcome is that we agree not to use a thing even if we can or think under stressful circumstances we should.
Philip K. Dick’s worlds begin to look benign.
I think it’s probably too late, rr. Everyone has been on the radar and everything has gone into “the permanent record” for too long, now. And this permanent record can be and is copied and distributed around the world in the blink of an eye, even as it is endlessly expanded.
There were steps that could have been taken. There was a time, in the mid-90s, perhaps extending slightly into the early 21st century, when the Internet and the wireless networks could have been developed in accordance with decentralized models that are inherently unfriendly to mass surveillance and tight corporate-government control. There were those of us who warned that the alternate path would lead to Panopticon and digital serfdom.
Unfortunately, the path of centralization provided quick, cheap and easy fun and games and (soon enough) near-monopoly “social networking.”
Who would choose a local ISP that required actual commitment and involvement (maybe even learning something!) from customers/members, when Comcast could offer such a great deal and bundle it with ESPN, a few movie channels and your favorite reality TV?
Who would subscribe to service from a local wireless carrier when Verizon was advertising an introductory price you couldn’t refuse and would also stretch the cost of the phone itself over a couple of years?
Who would wait a couple of weeks for merchandise to be ordered by a local retailer when Amazon could get it to you in two days, for a lower price, especially if Amazon ads for the very thing you want to buy have been following you around the Web since you first searched for it on Google?
The answer to all those questions is, effectively, “almost no one.” And thus have we sold our souls to the devil and been assimilated by the Borg.
spot on.
we are the borg
all hail the borg
every time i watch Blade Runner, i actually hope this world doesnt turn out like that.
Barack’s farewell address did warn us about the future, with remedial tasks being replaced by (robots) and us regular humans are going to need an advanced education – for what, building better robots to replace us?
all hail T2?
What really blows my mind is the extent to which millions of people air their laundry on Facebook. For the record, I do not have a Facebook account. FB is the mother lode of data mining, gleefully and blithely offered up by the score. I really don’t get why this is so damn important for so many human beings.
as a private citizen and non-state actor, snowden did not have the same “ipso delus priori” as foreign governments when it concerns espionage
russia for example can be tried via the United Nations, the World Court, or even the Fiesta Bowl
but snowden must be tried and convicted by us alone, using all the tools in the toolbox if need be
Hello, John.
I believe Russia already had all the information Snowden had. And in fact, I believe the Russians probably used and co-opted actual NSA’s resources and software to spy and gather information. In other words, the NSA had superior tools, so used them instead of the home grown stuff.
Right after the Snowden revelations something came out that not many people noticed–that the private contractors in charge of doing background checks were incompetent boobs.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2013-07-08/dead-among-those-interviewed-in-faulty-background-checks
The entire, privatized surveillance state was large, porous, and easy to get into. Well, easy probably for professional spies. And once in, easy access to every type of information. Seems the Russians could have even done something impossible like embedded an actual Russian spy or more likely somebody who was compromised or a willing and paid stooge.
Snowden doesn’t fit the profile of many spies. John Walker and Hasson stayed in place and did it in large part thrill and profit (welcome to supermax boys). Snowden looks to have gotten money from nobody.
There are other spies like “Kim” Philby were ideological adherents to Marxism. Snowden’s ideological loyalty was to the Bill of Rights.
In fact, my speculation is that Russian intelligence agencies are pissed at Snowden as his revelations probably caused much greater security and monitoring against intrusions into the NSA.
And there have been some NSA leaks since then, which shows that there are others with a conscience. “Thoughts have gone forth whose power can sleep no more.”
It’s worth noting that the NSA and other agencies were planning a “two-man rule”, where you can’t have only one person reviewing classified information, so as to prevent leaks. If anyone knew NSA history, they’d know that was not a deterrent.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_and_Mitchell_defection
Ed Snowden revealed the truth of events, aka facts. The meaning of the relationship of Snowden with Americans is a challenge to thieves who have used secrecy and uncontestable loyalty to steal power (like productivity) from the citizens of America.
America is being played, disrespected and murdered by those who want to dictate a perspective to discredit the HEROES of OPEN SOURCE and OWNERSHIP of LIFE SUPPORT for life liberty and pursuit of happiness.
Everything in the media today is simply a reaction of panic to keep the murder of Seth Rich out of view. Only when there is a reward of $100,000,000 for information about the murder of Seth Rich , conditions apply, will Americans be freed from the chains of lies.
Set the reward.
Friends dont let friends put (and keep) their feet in their mouths.
Glenn should admit this article is a mistake. And his apologists should encourage him to do so rather than continue to defend the indefensible.
You are a hoot. Better trolls, please.
Not sure how I could be an apologist when I’m openly praising something I believe is imminently defensible.
I second the request for better trolls. Preferably trolls who can read for comprehension and have a moral compass more sensitive than the latest nonsense to come vomiting out of Donald Trump’s gilded cakehole.
But… could you be wrong abt its defensibility?
More to the point: how can anyone argue that revealing the documents to a bunch of journalists is keeping them secret? Makes no sense.
No one made the argument that “revealing the documents to a bunch of journalists is keeping them secret.” Please do try to stay with the program.
Sure I could be wrong. But I won’t concede I’m wrong until I see compelling proof, or agree with a valid argument, establishing that I am wrong.
I’m open to listening to your view on why I’m wrong.
How is Glenn’s article a “mistake”?
How is Edward Snowden’s removal and dissemination to journalists, of the information he took, morally indefensible?
Again, and I’m being serious, I’ll entertain whatever arguments you have on either of those questions.
Good, thank you.
Well, I keep repeating it (my argument) but it keeps being ignored.
It’s simple: releasing documents to a bunch (one or more) journalists is NOT keeping those documents secret. A document doesnt remain secret simply because it has not been published. It is no longer secret if is in the hands of someone who is not intended to have it — whoever that may be, including well meaning journalists.
The decision to release some or all the documents that Snowden had in his posession was made by Snowden and Snowden alone. If he kept some, and released them to no one, the those that he kept ARE still secret.
Therefore, Lemann is correct when he asserts that it was Snowden alone who decided what stayed secret.
@ Helios
I think this is largely a semantic debate without a point. We could agree that but for Snowden downloading classified documents and releasing them to journalists, said documents would still be secret. In that sense, Snowden decided to make the entire tranche of documents no longer secret.
But, the decision on “what would become public”, as opposed to “not-secret” as that “secrecy” was destroyed the second he released them to Glenn and others, is actually what makes Lemann’s point a non-point.
Snowden did not choose what became “public”, journalists did. So to the degree the documents generally are/were no longer “secret” once Snowden gave them to any individual, so what? In no respect did Snowden decide with any specificity which documents might ever become “public” which was solely on the heads of editors and journalists–as it should be, in an imperfect world.
Yes, but dont forget that we’re talking abt whether Lemann lied or not.
Lemann didnt say Snowden alone made the documents public; he said Snowden alone made them not secret.
If Snowden alone made them “not secret,” then they may as well all just be dumped online.
So, once three journalists had it, it was impossible for them to publish secrets? The majority of documents they did not report or release, are no longer secret “in any sense of the word?”
Huh? This doesn’t even rise to the level of trolling, Helios. It’s just irrelevant spouting.
I’ve presented and defended below my reason for stating that Glenn is wrong abt Lemman’s assertion being a lie.
‘Twould be nice if y’all tried to address the argument, rather than disparaging the source.
Really, it’s simple: what is the meaning of the word SECRET in this context.
We dispatched your silliness below.
I don’t know who Helios is, but I’m not sure he’s a “troll,” so please, let’s not dismiss him as one. His point is, that the moment snowden handed over the docs, the docs were no longer secret, so Lemann is right. Glenn’s position obviously is that, the docs were secret, until journalists published them.
I happen to agree with Glenn, and Mona deftly shows below (per her link) why this can be so. But it’s not like Helios’ argument is without logic.
It’s a point of view. I don’t see why it should be dispatched as trolling.
Helios is probably troll. His total output here makes that likely. His argument is, in fact, without logic. The assertions in his first comment in this sub-thread are inane.
Why is his argument without logic? If I’m the NSA, and my secret docs have been transferred to some unauthorized person, is it illogical for me to consider that information compromised? I don’t see how you can say his argument is without merit. It’s a point of view different from yours.
I’d rather argue this out properly, than dismiss it. I don’t agree with the spirit of Lemann’s writing. But that doesn’t mean that he can’t escape on a technicality.
You are misstating his “arguments.”
That’s his original argument. His second argument is, based on his position, he thinks Glenn should retract the article. I’m more interested in arguing his original position.
This is stupid:
Of course they were still secret. There were calls for him to “give the rest back” after the first story. Why? If the damage was already done?
Until that first story was published, the document was also still secret. The universe of those who knew was infinitely small. Confined to NSA staff, some others in the Executive branch, and a few members of Congress. Adding a handful of reporters didn’t change that they were all still secret.
If Greenwald, Poitras and Gellman had all decided to do nothing with those documents, they’d still be secret.
Well, if they hadn’t published, the NSA wouldn’t know about it. But in the strictest sense of the word, they wouldn’t be secret. But we need to redefine “secret.”
Look, I’m not trying to argue against Glenn. I want to argue in favor of how Glenn views thing, and I’m with him in my soul. But I want to have a solid, impregnable, non-partisan, non-emotional argument. And dismissing his point as stupid, I’m not sure helps. At least, it doesn’t help me, or my head.
Anyway. Goodnight :)
So?
What? In the strictest, or any other sense, the documents were secret until they were published. (Until that time the journalists were keeping all the secrets.) Otherwise, ever document Snowden gave to the first handful of journalists immediately became not secret with that act. Which is preposterous.
That would mean the when contacted prior to each publication, the NSA was wasting its time making any arguments at all against publication, because all of their secrets were already out.
Tnx for the defense, which is appreciated. However, I fail to see why spurious and unsubstantiated claims abt what Nixon may or may not have thought abt the Pentagon Papers proves anything at all in relation to the current topic.
Of course Nixon wanted to keep the PP from being widely known, but certainly once Ellsberg came out with them the papers were no longer secret in any sense of the word.
As I mentioned before, any of the journalists that had access to the Snowden docs could have passed them on to enemies of the US without ever publishing them.
Well from the NSA’s point of view, which seems to be your position, I can see your point. But from everything I’ve read on this matter, it seems like a LOT of people know a LOT of things about what’s going on, including unauthorized people who work for telecoms. So I’m not sure that the NSA really has any idea of what’s secret and what’s not secret. The only people this whole thing was a “secret” from was the public. And Snowden had nothing to do with the public. I disagree with your position that the moment he gave them to journalists the docs were “no longer secret in any sense of the word.”
Fair enough. But, did Lemann lie? And can Glenn sustain the claim that he did?
That’s the crux of this whole matter.
I had skimmed through Lemann’s article before, and I just did again. He’s wrong on many things. He’s wrong on what hacker culture sprouted Snowden or the journalists that covered him. He’s wrong about his statements regarding budget problems pushing NSA to hire from “low security private marketplace” when everybody and their mother know that these organizations have unlimited funds since 9/11. And then he asserts that Snowden alone is responsible, which is also wrong.
So if something is wrong, is it unreasonable for me to describe it as a lie? It most certainly isn’t the truth. So technically it is a lie. Maybe it’s just wrong, and there’s no malice involved, and so maybe lying was not the intent.
But Lemann’s work is sloppy at best. He describes Epstein’s theories on how perhaps Snowden is a Russian plant or a Chinese plant or both, as a “coherent hypothesis,” without giving any consideration as to whether, ever in the history of espionage, any spy has ever revealed him/herself to a journalist instead of just going back to the country s/he was spying for, or in what fricking Universe such a thing can even plausibly happen.
Like I said, at best, Lemann is guilty of being wrong through laziness. At worst, he’s smearing Snowden, because that’s his opinion. And if smearing is the goal, I don’t see why a “lie” is an impossibility.
Well, I understand and respect your opinion. I’ve made (or tried to make) my points, so I’d just be repeating them if I continued.
In summary, I do think Glenn overextended himself in this article.
Does it cost him his reputation? Of course not; his track record is long and solid and can easily overcome a minor error such as this.
Do I think he should make a correction (after all, he almost single-handedly has forced WaPo to make more than one)? Yes, I do.
Regards.
I know that my argument is not 100% solid, and am under no illusion that it has swayed you in any way :), but I wanted to make one more point regarding Lemann.
Lemann writes:
“It’s an irony of the years since the Reagan revolution that one political strain in the United States, suspicion of big government, has led to spending and staffing limits that have pushed the N.S.A. into the low-security private marketplace to perform its ever-expanding mission. (The contractor that employed Snowden had been acquired by a private equity firm that was pressuring it to cut costs, and elaborate background checks are expensive.)”
The above IS a lie. It’s a malicious lie. Lemann is contending that budget cuts made Booz-Allen Hamilton compromise on security clearance of personnel??? They hired Snowden because he ALREADY HAD security clearance. But if you knew nothing of the Snowden saga, and read that, you’d think that some prvivate equity firm forced Booz-Allen’s hand into acquiring unqualified personnel with undesirable security clearance, and the NSA allowed that to happen, and that is what compromised their security.
That is ridiculous. That is not laziness. That is a well crafted, malicious, well thought out lie. Nothing sloppy or lazy about that lie.
So yeah. I’m with Glenn. 100%!!! Lemmann is full of it. I have no reason to give him the benefit of the doubt.
Point received, copied, and duly recorded :)
What does “came out with” mean? When they were published they were no longer “secret in any sense of the word.”
Richard Nixon tried like hell to prevent that publication. Because there were secrets in them he did not want known. They were still secret when only a few reporters (and some Congressmen) had them. An injunction was therefore deemed necessary.
indefencible is 8 JUNE 1967
indefencible is the slaughter of Palestinians for their land
indefencible is the likely of the murder of Seth Rich orchestrated by the CIA
have another helping of indefencibility
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/736223/9-11-tower-Building-7-collapse-fire-conspiracy
Thanks, Glenn. Again.
I personally don’t believe the NYT or other MSM have fact checkers reviewing work before it’s released to assure it is factual. Nor editors who count factual reporting to be as important as reporting which supports a preferred narrative.
I do believe they have narrative checkers to assure stories don’t stray too far from the chosen narrative, regardless of actual facts.
Intel chiefs presented Trump with Claims of Russian efforts to compromise him
By Evan Perez, Jim Sciutto, Jake Tapper and Carl Bernstein, CNN
Updated 5:15 PM ET, Tue January 10, 2017
Holy shit. Now it looks like the CIA is threatening to blackmail Trump with some opposition research some English spook did on him. The CNN clip couldn’t cogently outline what the fuck is actually going. So the the unnamed sources are still unnamed about unknown secret information. But it seems everybody believes the unnamed English spook who got confirmation about his findings from other unnamed spooks. And it seemed that the CIA was going to investigate whether the charges are true about Trump and his Russian connection based on these charges from an unnamed private investigator.
Looks like the guys in the shadows are either trying to set up immediate impeachment, or hey, giving the FBI/CIA “proof” to arrest Trump? Would it be far fetched to let the military arrest and detain Trump.
The leverage that exists to bend a Trump is yuge! The fact that his team of twisted misanthropes was likely in early on the bending should surprise precisely nobody. He’s bendy! Just ask Joey “No Socks”! Or the citizens of Atlantic City. Or I guess the GRU.
Here is what Trump thinks about himself.
Trump: I could shoot somebody and not lose voters
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTACH1eVIaA
Yah, the guy will just utterly wilt.
Donald Trump is highly not blackmail-able. Nor could anything released by Russian operatives, or anyone else, have defeated him. As he said, if he shot someone in the open on 5th Avenue, he wouldn’t lose support.
Bernstein says that the information comes, originally, from a retired MI6 operative who was hired by a DC-based opposition research outfit working to dig dirt on Trump for both Democrat and Republican clients.
Mr. Ex-MI6 allegedly worked his old Russian contacts who told him about the damaging info they allegedly have on Trump and which they allegedly withheld during the election campaigns for some (no doubt alleged) reason as yet undisclosed.
One would be foolish, given the totality of the circumstances, not to suspect that US spooks are using this as a ploy to attempt to bring Trump into line.
I can hardly imagine that anything any of them might have could do that. He’s a rich rogue who is about to be sworn in as POTUS, he’s 70 years old and has repeatedly demonstrated that he doesn’t much give a shit what anyone knows, thinks, says or believes about him.
Pictures of him in bed with a dead girl wouldn’t do it, and he’s not inclined toward naked little boys. Well, I suppose if it was a dead murdered girl, and given no statue of limitations, I suppose then blackmail could work. But otherwise, hard to imagine.
This is old news. NYT today reports the “blackmail” material supposedly is:
Meh.
Oh, that story.
If they have video and release it, Trump will just say, “See what great sex I bought for only 7,000 rubles? That shows I’m smart!”
Melania would be shocked, shocked I tell you!!!
“Though ambiguous about who exactly it is describing, this passages strongly implies that Snowden ‘doesn’t believe there should be an N.S.A. at all.’ Snowden believes nothing of the kind. In fact, he believes exactly the opposite: that the NSA performs a vital function and many of their programs are legitimate and important. He has said this over and over. That’s why he wanted to work for the agency. It’s why he refused to dump all the documents he took and instead gave them to journalists, demanding that they only publish those which expose information necessary to inform the public debate: precisely because he did not want to destroy NSA programs he believes are justifiable.”
“Not a single document that saw the light of day was published because Snowden decided it should be: literally not one. Snowden played no decision-making role whatsoever in determining which documents were published and which were withheld. What happened was exactly the opposite of what Lemann told New York Times readers: it was the press, not Snowden, which decided what stayed secret and what was reported.”
Didn’t both Greenwald claim himself that no one has been harmed by the NSA disclosures? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1Zvo8N3G94) But here Greenwald states that Snowden left the decision to publish up to the journalists. Snowden has not denied turning over secrets that would be damaging or harmful. He just said journalists have a deal with him not to do it.
It’s also funny that in previous media appearances Greenwald denies “losing” any of the documents but states that NSA and GCHQ “lost” thousands of them—even though Snowden used his security clearance to steal them. Greenwald has also, in the past, assure us that the documents are safe and secure in the possession of the Guardian or the Intercept, which, (unlike the leaky NSA and GCHQ, apparently) are using reliable encryption. Until, of course, David Miranda was detained with a with a thumb drive of the stuff and a paper with the passwords on them. Oops.
Also, Greenwald writes that Snowden wanted to work with the NSA because “the NSA performs a vital function and many of their programs are legitimate and important.” That’s interesting. In an interview with a Chinese paper, he stated that he took the job for the express purpose of stealing documents. “My position with Booz Allen Hamilton granted me access to lists of machines all over the world the NSA hacked,” he told the South China Morning Post on June 12. “That is why I accepted that position about three months ago.”
(http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1268209/snowden-sought-booz-allen-job-gather-evidence-nsa-surveillance)
This is the 99th time that Glenn has delivered a breathless rebuttal of some innocuous article that dared characterize the actions of Snowden in a manner Glenn didn’t see fit.
One more and we all get free tacos.
You comment epitomizes why motives are really beside the point, and in your case, like many, get in the way of what was actually said.
The article was about lies and damn lies. Please explain how you see these lies as “fit” lies?
That’s Nate. It’s what he does.
Mona’s just upset that she’s been barred from all taco-serving establishments for screaming “I know Glenn Greenwald!” to anybody that will listen, and verbally abusing the the servers who she calls “fuckwits.”
No free tacos for poor, poor Mona. Back to the foot of Glenn’s bed ya go. Hope your tummy grumbling doesn’t keep everyone up.
Please Do Not Feed the Nate.
“……..Please Do Not Feed the Nate…….”
Right Doug, does this ring a bell for you?
“………Craig, you are a poisonous pollutant in this forum. You need to go away or be removed……”
You can always go to the new “one viewpoint” site. I doubt that Nate has been invited and I still am waiting for my invitation from Mona. There is nothing quite like a sanitized comment section to reinforce your beliefs.
Thanks.
@ Craig
I may not like you, nor agree with anything you think or write. In fact I find you to be a moral leper. But I’d invite you to any online forum if you’d commit to doing two things–learn to link consistently (I know you know how now), and learn to f*cking blockquote consistently.
Besides I like using you as an ideological punching bag. It helps having you around to show the intellectual and moral bankruptcy and depravity of your authoritarian ass-kissing worldview.
But you’re probably not all bad, grandpa. You probably are good to your dog(s) and grandchildren, which I’ll concede makes you redeemable in my book.
” learn to f*cking blockquote consistently”
the formatting nazi has spoken
as for your quasi-leftoid common-man anti-populist non-authoritarian cult of personality moral elitism … the post office wants you back
Yawwwwnnnnnnn. Feeling a little cranky waking up on the wrong side of the comment section there little buddy?
I must say though that I really like how you string words together that don’t make much sense when applied to me. I’d think I’m an actual leftist not a quasi one. I’m actually a populist. I don’t quite understand how someone could be a moral elitist rather than simply moralistic.
However, I do take issue with being described as being a part of, the object of, or possessing a “cult-of-personality”. I can only wish I was that important. Also not sure how it would be an insult to a common man, a populist and a leftist to have the Post Office want him back? I checked. They aren’t hiring except as PSEs and CCAs, and I’m holding out for a reinstatement position so that I don’t lose years of service toward my pension (at least the partial pension I assume Donald Trump will do away with to give some rich guys tax cuts).
Why would anyone want a comment section without some debate? If I wanted to reinforce my political philosophy, I would just post at the Wall Street Journal. On the other hand, posting would lose its enjoyment and challenge if all that I ever posted was an apology for US policies.
Regardless, most everyone posting on these threads are probably good people so the personal attacks are just a little ridiculous, but we all get caught up in it. I am certain that you are probably a different person offline.
Thanks.
Doug “Don’t waste time scrutinizing Trump because he has no chance to win” Salzmann, shows his face. Good to have you back bud!!
I was certainly wrong in my assessment of Trump’s chances of victory, up until the last few weeks of the campaign, when Clinton and her minions collapsed in utter disarray.
I confess to being, still, surprised that even Hillary could have lost to Trump. She pulled off the seemingly impossible.
But my voice, if not my face, has been here all along, Nate. If you haven’t noticed, it’s probably because I’m usually pretty good at ignoring you.
And she and her campaign fucking chose to promote his candidacy with the media — that “Pied Piper” strategy. They actively wanted him to be who she ran against.
She lost to DONALD TRUMP. After her operatives had the gall to run around ranting that Bernie Sanders was not electable.
Yeah, “pretty good.” This post being the lone exception, right?
Like Mona, you cannot resist. I suggest going back to your secret clubhouse. Save yourself the heartache of having to deal with differing views and disagreeable comments.
Feeding the Nate is bad.
I agree. This article is a critique of…a book review…which is about as highly subjective a form of journalistic writing as one could imagine. No person reads the NYT A&E section for anything other than an opinion about (what else?) arts and entertainment.
I think Mr. Greenwald is a journalist of very high calibre. He’s demeaning himself and his skills with milquetoast critiques like this. Stick to the big fish, please.
A foolish faith in authority, is the worst enemy of truth. (Albert Einstein)
Need more be said?
Exactly right, Glenn Greenwald.
As a Libertarian, I enjoyed listening to GG’s recent interview on the Reason radio broadcast with Nick Gillespie.
I lost all respect for the NYT years ago. As an example of their foolishness and bias, just the other day I was perusing readers’ comments on a story. There are three categories of comments: All, Readers Picks, and NYT Picks.
A highly recommended comment that made it into not only the Readers Picks but the NYT Picks as well included the phrases “the election was rigged” and “the election was hacked.”
No wonder that a recent poll showed that 52% of Democrats believe the vote tallies themselves were hacked. We can thank the NYT and other partisan outlets for this paranoid and destructive conspiracy theory.
(What’s ironic is that there is a youtube video of Obama himself declaring pre-election that the election cannot be rigged. Of course, at the time, Trump himself was declaring the opposite, that the election was rigged.) If it wasn’t for partisan politics and hypocrisy, we’d have no politics at all.
I have been monitoring this whole situation since 2013 when the story (document reveal) broke. At that time I was listening to what the Pres. and higher up’s were saying how Edward is a criminal and giving away all the secrets of the NSA. I believed them because, they’re the Government, they wouldn’t lie about this. For a few years I held on to this spoon fed belief. Then I saw Citizen4. I watched it twice and was stunned. I realized what ES has done and who he really is. A true American. Someone who cares about the country and the people in it. Even me, the small guy not making even $50,000 a year. He cares about me! This is what those in the USA don’t understand. Ed Snowden is a revolutionary in the sense that his actions will lead to a change in how the lawmakers treat it’s own.It may take decades (so what) for his actions to be appreciated. I feel though a lot of people in the world are just, in a sense, asleep to the facts. I am not asleep. I want to live in a place where my every free thought is captured and would be interpreted in a way other than it’s original thought. Is that so bad? I thought that’s what our Military was doing…fighting for our freedoms. It seems they are fighting for the government, not the people.
I’m not a college educated guy with a degree or anything special but I’m an American. From when I was taught in grade school the bill of rights and a smattering of how important the Constitution is to all Americans I was very proud I live in such a great place. You have a right to the press, religion, etc. But after these (Snowden) revelations I just am sick to my stomach on what the NSA specifically is doing to Americans. How every call is monitored. Every text read. Every keystroke logged. Every social media thought interpreted. Every friend scrutinized. How long must this go on. ES might seem to some as traitor but the fact’s don’t lie. Ed Snowden is someone who will someday be recognized as a true American hero. Maybe no one has told him this but, Ed Snowden, I thank you!
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/02/putin-kremlin-inside-russian-troll-house
If you don’t mind my asking, just out of personal curiosity, do you lean left or right politically? thanks.
Citizen4 was great.
Set the Reward
But the point of having a huge, capable agency like NSA is so you can do what you call ‘mass surveillance’ in order to identify the bad guys who should be monitored. Otherwise you might as well stick to law enforcement conducting single line intercepts.
oh so the point is to violate the constitution.
Where in the NSA’s charter or mission statement does it provide that it is supposed to undertake “mass surveillance” on the whole world? Including Americans on U.S. soil?
It’s too bad their ‘mass surveillance’ didn’t identify the FSB as one of the ‘bad guys who should be monitored’. I suppose it’s one of those things that seems obvious in retrospect, but no one could have known at the time.
The issue with mass surveillance as currently practiced (and there is I think a distinction that should be made between surveillance in practice and theory – if you have specific targets that are suspected of wrongdoing then you can deploy systems only in those circumstances) is that the amount of information collected is so large that you can’t possibly sort through it meaningfully. You’d have more success going after specific targets and you can discover who those targets are using less raw information but more intelligent methods (and of course there’s a risk in doing this, some bad guy might get through, but that’s the nature of life, which is inherently risky)
Link below is to an article Glenn linked to in his twitter feed today. Highly recommended reading about the report and how little to nothing is in it. An excellent piece of work by Masha Gessen in NYR Daily
Russia, Trump and flawed intelligence
Thank you. I find Masha Gessen’s work to be much more convincing than Glenn’s. She avoids unnecessary speculation about other’s motives, clearly labels her conjecture, and keeps the main threat in sight.
So does Glenn Greenwald.
You’ve cited no fact-based reason for that assessment.
1st point: I could go through his pieces and find several examples. I’d rather go back and read more of Masha Gessen’s work.
2nd point: I was expressing an opinion, which I gave reasons for. I could document my reasons for each point, but they’re there for anyone to see.
Anyone see Dilbert this Sunday? I think Scott Adams has spent time on this site.
Thanks for the brilliant Dilbert link Robert. For others’ benefit:
http://dilbert.com/strip/2017-01-08
I don’t think rrheard will get the joke though.
I get it.
I just don’t find Dilbert brilliant, but inane.
Scott Adams supported Trump, so I really don’t find him all that politically astute or funny either.
And if you want to feel free to criticism me for stating the obvious, feel free. Sometimes I do. I’m human.
But critiquing me obliquely using an inane cartoon by Scott Adams tells me somebody doesn’t want to go a few rounds in the ring, because he/she isn’t all that confident in their opinions or that they’ll hold up to scrutiny if they step into the ring and do it overtly.
Glenn Greenwald has said, more times than I could count, that speculating about motives is usually a fool’s errand, and that people have a hard enough time knowing their own motives, much less those of others. Every time I read or hear him say this I am again struck by how true it is. The rare occasion when he gets into motives is just that — rare.
“But what was the Post’s motive in publishing two false stories about Russia that, very predictably, generated massive attention, traffic, and political impact? Was it ideological and political — namely, devotion to the D.C. agenda of elevating Russia into a grave threat to U.S. security? Was it to please its audience — knowing that its readers, in the wake of Trump’s victory, want to be fed stories about Russian treachery? Was it access and source servitude — proving it will serve as a loyal and uncritical repository for any propaganda intelligence officials want disseminated? Was it profit — to generate revenue through sensationalistic click-bait headlines with a reckless disregard to whether its stories are true? In an institution as large as the Post, with numerous reporters and editors participating in these stories, it’s impossible to identify any one motive as definitive.”
From the Democracy Now website:
“Because Democrats are so desperate to put the blame on everybody but themselves for the complete collapse of their party, they’re particularly furious at anybody who vocally challenges this narrative,” Greenwald says.
When he makes statements like this, and I’ve seen him do so frequently during this controversy, he is engaging in baseless speculation. He might very well be right about the party operatives, but he makes no such distinction. “Democrats” could be tens of millions of people, and Glenn knows their minds better than they do, apparently. He’d do well to follow his own advice. I have to remind myself to do that on occasion, too. We’re all human.
Gessen’s summation is as instructive as it is damning:
Something we should all be concerned about; the consequences of continuing to dive down these ideological rabbit-holes (as with most our foreign policy decisions) is becoming incalculable.
the lying CIA and UN-intel agencies who gave US WMD and the whore media that pushed for an illegal invasion have had to exclude the murder of Seth Rich and other facts in order to create a fantasy picture that somehow russia-did-it. What DID happen is that Hellary Clinton lost bigtime and benefitted from the death of Seth Rich.
dont be fraid, be very afraid
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCGW033-82c
Oh, pish-tosh! With all due respect to Mr Greenwald — who I admire — this is more than a bit over the top.
It can easily be argued that what Lemann means by the paragraph in question is that once Snowden handed the documents to the press, those documents were no longer secret. It’s irrelevant whether the press proceeded to publish them or not, once in the hands of the journalists they obviously WERE NO LONGER SECRET, by any reaonable definition of SECRET.
Who knows, perhaps David Sanger — or even Glen Greenwald — is/are mole(s) for the Russians/Chinese and passed some sensitive stuff to them without having ever published it.
In other words, when viewed from that perspective, the truthfulness of that paragraph is evident.
Glen wouldnt have a chance of proving the contrary in a court of law even if Lemann were defended by a half-witted graduate of Mickey Mouse Law School.
In Mickey Mouse Law School, this statement is false.
Go play at Columbia.
Right, the statement is false in, and only in, Mickey Mouse Law School. Sounds like you’re a graduate of same.
How is this part of Lemann’s question true, in your head-full-of-rocks Law school?
statement, not “question”
If, according to you, passing the documents to Glen Greenwald, or Laura Poitras, or whoever handled them first and passed them on (which is unclear) is “keeping them secret” you have a funny definition of secret.
Publishing them or not is irrelevant. The very fact that they were in the hands of anyone who could reveal them to whoever they chose, including the public, means they’re no longer secret.
Now dont get me wrong. I am a defender of Snowden, Greenwald, Julian Assange, et al, as I believe making this sort of revelations is doing a service to the nation and the world; but it’s also pretty obvious that Lemann’s statement is accurate. And, in consequence, I believe Glen should retract this article.
Yeah, yanno, Nixon moved heaven and earth to have the courts stop the NYT from publishing the Pentagon Papers after they’d been put in the hands of that outlet. (Oddly, he thought they were still pretty “secret” and thought he could keep them that way if the courts enjoined the paper from publishing them.) He and his DoJ were a bunch of morons!11!1!
I can easily argue that faeries dance at the foot of my garden.
Nothing destroys one’s trust in the press like reading a story on topic of which you are a domain expert.
So, NYT published a line by an author that essentially offloaded all NYT responsibilities re: NSA leaks on Snowden, absolving the NYT in the process, and you think this was an oversight? The way most MSM operate today, I’d say this was as conscious a decision as it gets.
Right on!
How funny that this article appears in the Intercept just above an article by Matthew Cole that also makes totally false claims that I know firsthand to be untrue. I hope The Intercept starts checking its own reporters more rigorously.
Perhaps you can cite specifically these ” totally false claims that [you] know firsthand to be untrue” and why you think that?
Okay, we’ll give you a shot, given many of The Intercept’s readers like to hold to consistent standards regardless of the partisan or other affiliation of a speaker or writer.
Go head and demonstrate, non-anonymously, any and all factual errors you believe are present in the Cole piece. In other words, establish your purported “first-hand knowledge” of disputed or relevant facts right here in this comments section, by doing it openly under your real name, or with documents or links that corroborate any of your assertions.
We’ll wait, and thank you in advance. Genuinely. Assuming you can do it.
Virtually no non-troll reader here is going to accept that brazen assertion, spouted with not even an attempt at providing evidence. Nor even specifying any supposedly untrue claims in either Cole’s or Greenwald’s pieces.
Did you guys see her tearing Matt Cole a new one, with all her facts, in his comment section?
Yeah. I didn’t either.
Exactly. That’s why I think she’s trolling.
“with all her facts”
Zero. Dark. 30.
I was just perusing RT’s newsfeed, in order to find out what Comrade Putin wants me to believe next, and along with a cute video about a magpie that was mislabeled a crow (lying Commies!) I came across an article https://www.rt.com/news/373195-odni-russia-iraq-wmd/
comparing the election hacks with Iraq’s WMD program, which contains this phrase: “respected writer Glenn Greenwald”.
Geez, Glenn! Guess that proves you really are a Kremlin plant.
I know! The Intercept are entirely Putin-lovers, and somehow smell of leaky-Assange.
I fart in their general direction. :^)
“Snowden “doesn’t believe there should be an N.S.A. at all.” Snowden believes nothing of the kind. In fact, he believes exactly the opposite: that the NSA performs a vital function”
———
And that is because snowden is just a polite apologist of american fascism. He of course realizes that some excess are bad for publicity but he doesn’t have any principled objection to the attacks that the american state and empire commits against the whole world, and even against proles of the master american race.
And yes, snowden is a ‘libertarian’. So all you progressive fascists who hate libertarianism should treat him like you treat libertarians in general (that is with utter contempt and bad faith)
he doesn’t have a “principled objection”? he risked being jailed for decades, like manning. that sounds principled to me. but then you claim he is a libertarian, so does this mean libertarians have no principles?
What snowded did is a start and he deserves credit for some of his actions, but his philosophy is still flawed and unprincipled. And I put ‘libertarian’ in scare quotes. I don’t consider him a libertarian, but, from the point of view of american progressive fascist (say clinton fanatics who read TI) he surely is.
I can’t say that I’m understanding much of what your were trying to say in the two comments you’ve posted, but I will ask you to please clarify this one bit of your second comment. You think lots of Clinton fanatics read The Intercept? If you do think that, why do you think that, and why do think Clinton fanatics would be reading The Intercept?
“You think lots of Clinton fanatics read The Intercept? ”
——-
Well, if you take into account the amount of pro clinton propaganda that TI published before the election, it seems a reasonable bet. At any rate, I’d bet there’s a fair amout of ‘liberal’ or ‘progressives’ here, who are nothing but left wing american fascists.
No, I think you’ve stumbled onto a different venue than the one you’re imagining.
If this link below works as I expect it to you’ll see one article about the foolishness of Podesta, and then at the bottom of the article you should see several more links to “Related.” Each one is anything but “pro clinton propaganda.”
John Podesta was Warned…
Those articles are just a few of the skads of other articles posted at The Intercept which were anything but “pro clinton propaganda.” And I see very, very few “Clinton fanatics” hanging around in the comments sections of The Intercept.
That’s literally preposterous and absurd.
If Edward Snowden supports fascism, it should be supported.
“If Edward Snowden supports fascism, it should be supported.”
What? I realise he doesn’t (well, not wittingly), but what do you mean?
I mean if the principles Edward Snowden articulates and follows constitute “fascism,” as free claims (“snowden is just a polite apologist of american fascism”), then fascism has much to recommend it.
As a matter of obvious fact snowden devoted most of his professional to american fascism – or what do you think he did exactly as member of the murdering US military, the murdering NSA and other murdering agencies of the american empire?
It’s nice, that unlike the vast majoriy of srick criminals that make up the american government he had a change of heart, but still as greenwald clearly states, SNOWDEN IS AN NSA APOLOGIST.
That indicts every person ever to serve in the U.S. armed services, or in any intelligence work, of any sort or reason, in either their past or present. As is typical for you, you proffer standards and beliefs that are so pure you write off vast swathes of good people.
Moreover, you unreasonably think the positions people hold in their early and mid-20s cannot evolve based on receiving new information, without their foundational principles changing much, if at all.
What are your bedrock, most basic moral and political principles?
” you write off vast swathes of good people.”
Tell that to the victims of the american empire, from 1776 to 2017. I’m sure all the killed, maimed, enslaved victims and their families who suffered at the hands of the US military and government will appreciate that the US military included vast numbers of ‘good’ people. Too bad that these allegedly good people didn’t lift a finger to stop the bad people.
“Moreover, you unreasonably think the positions people hold in their early and mid-20s cannot evolve”
Au contraire. I explicitly acknowledged that Snwoden or say Manning changed their views, at least partially. And other people change as well. But I’m not going to pretend that Snowden is a saint. especially if he still sides with the US government (even though the US gov’t is persecuting him!)
” most basic moral and political principles?”
Respect for human rights, but in their original sense : rights to life, liberty and property, not ‘rights’ to free stuff from the nanny fascist state.
And there we have it.
Snowden is an apologist for fascism, says the political genius who out-Rands Ayn Rand.
He’s a person of more courage than anyone writing here, either above or below the line. (With the possible exception of war reporters like Jeremy Scahill.) No one, including you, can hold a candle to his good character.
And this is a bit off-topic, or maybe not necessarily, but still worth a read:
http://coreyrobin.com/2017/01/07/trump-and-the-intelligence-agencies-on-the-slow-collapse-of-imperial-republics/
The “delegitimation of America’s institutions” is something I’ve argued here and elsewhere over the years, and I think is an ongoing fact.
I suppose the truly important questions are, a) is it purposeful or just the symptoms of the natural decline of all empires, and/or b) will the “left/progressives” see it as an opportunity to re-assert and fight for a different kind of domestic politics, and one that actually works for the majority of the American people (working class primarily) and one actually worthy of emulation by others in the world.
We’ll see. It’s the one thing I’m happy about Trump’s election. He’s an “enemy” that is transparent and can be fought against much easier than the DNC/Third Way quislings and sell-outs that have dominated nominally “liberal” politics in America for far too long.
There is an clear path to a resurgence of the nominal “left/progressives” in this country, and it is to embrace an anti-imperial foreign policy, civil liberties, de-militarization of this nation to focus on defense of our borders, and actual “humanitarian” aid abroad, and an embrace of a modernized FDR’s Second Bill of Rights.
That’s it. Keep it simple, and actually fight for and on behalf of all of the American working class and good things will happen here and abroad as a function of both domestic and foreign policy. But that means breaking the stranglehold the MICC has over this nation.
And “Free Trade” is not “Fair Trade”. At all times in the international arena we should be embracing the latter, up and down all supply chains, and be creating a “race to the top” for the world’s working classes through America’s consumptive behavior, not a “race to the bottom” which has been the case. And that’s the responsibility of the American consumer (i.e. the vast majority of the American population who “shops” first and foremost based on “price” of goods and services). People have to be taught that “price” is a poor indicator and not transparently inclusive of the incredible amount of “externalities” not reflected in the “price” of goods and services. We have to be better and smarter and more ethical consumers. Our lives actually depend on it, given global climate change and mass global overconsumption.
I largely agree but have a few retorts, rrheard.
FDR’s second bill of rights is inactionable and childish, featuring clear internal contradictions and a wholesale denial of scarcity (I recognize that you share this denial). For instance, everyone has a right to a “useful and remunerative” job, and businessmen can act free from “monopoly.” I guess that monopoly government telling you who to hire and what to pay them doesn’t count. Regardless, it is chock full of words begging for the interpretation of the government: “adequate,” “decent,” etc. It is political propaganda with no basis in reality, and an attempt to implement it is the road to Venezuela.
If you want “humanitarian” foreign aid, do it yourself and take your hand out of my back pocket.
“Fair” isn’t something all reasonable people can agree on. For instance, I think free trade is fair, while you see a dichotomy. Free trade lets other people engage in voluntary trade without your permission, which my moral position insists upon. If I want to buy a Japanese car or a Mexican prostitute, it’s none of your business, paeans to the working class aside.
If you want to travel, build your own fucking roads and keep your grubby Randian hands off the community purse. Likewise, if you prefer to fly, hire your own damned air traffic control system.
And be sure to put a sign on your door with your charming little admonition prominently highlighted:
If you ever need help, well, lots of folks need help and some may prefer to assist the arrogant and selfish. . . later.
I never said anything against foreign aid. I spoke against people using other people’s money for their own purposes. I may choose to engage in foreign aid and humanitarian work even if I disagree with government-directed aid. This is in fact the case.
I would be more than happy to have private arrangements for roads and air traffic control. Also, schools and everything else other than police, courts, and the military. So your point here, which I take as an attempt to point out some fundamental hypocrisy in my position, fell a little flat.
So your comment only contains one relevant point: that I am “arrogant and selfish.” Glad you got that off your chest. Have any actual arguments?
I am reminded, for some reason, of a cartoon I saw that showed a firefighter rushing toward a burning house. Standing calmly on the porch, surrounded by flames, is a man smiling and saying to the firefighter, “No thanks — I’m a libertarian.”
“I spoke against people using other people’s money for their own purposes. ”
You mean like Wells-Fargo, of course.
The Banksters committed massive mortgage fraud and nary a court docket has been filled. (h/t rr and his appellate victory)
Volkswagen just had their top guy frog-marched away over the fraud from emission tests.
Why not the banking industry?
I think I’m satisfied with a general reminder that humans are mutually-dependent creatures of community, and a reasonably restrained expression of disgust and contempt for those who imagine they stand alone and shouldn’t be subject to group decisions and shared responsibility — for now.
@ Doug
You’re wasting your time except on a very few issues, where you can appeal to his “values” (i.e. I don’t like to have to pay for war, or I don’t think I should be surveilled . . . .)
But here’s the real problem with propertarian/libertarian/capitalists/neoliberals et al . . . they can’t conceive of a world, where some things are public goods. That by and large they are not suitable for “market” approaches, or that it is immoral to add “profit” on top of the actual cost of obtaining (building or finding) and distributing the “thing” in question.
Let’s pick an easy example–blood supply for surgeries et al. The vast majority of it in America is “obtained” for free from volunteers who donate it. But the entire rest of the “supply chain” of delivering it is “for-profit” (i.e from the phlebotomists to take it out of your vein, to the providers of the cookies and juice, to the transportation and cold storage, and presumably the mark up the health care provider tacks onto it).
But there shouldn’t be any “profit” in it, which isn’t the same as compensating, sans “profit”, for the wage/hours that the phlebotomist, truck drivers who drive it, to the workers who man the storage and logistics of knowing where to send it and when, to the doctors, nurses and orderlies who put it back into someone else.
But if there is going to be any “profit” on top of the wage/hours at a fair or government set rate for “public goods” then it seems to me, the bulk of the profit should be going to the blood donors.
But the very idea repels actual human beings because they know why it is they donate it, instead of sell it, in the first instance–because it is a “public good” that they hope is there for them when they may need it some day. And if they don’t great. It is the very principle behind risk sharing. And the preeminent human emotion shouldn’t be “well I paid a lot into it and didn’t ever end up using it, therefore why should I have to pay into it in the first instance”, it should be “I have piece of mind that I’ve done my part not just for myself, because but for the grace of God go I, but for those I can help because it is the right thing to do to help each other if and when we can (even if it’s hard sometimes) for no other material reward than piece of mind that we should, can and did.”
It’s the difference between grounding your world view in the fiction that “scarcity” by and large is “created” for most things that are “public goods”, and that in the realm of non-essential non-public goods there is anything but scarcity being created but rather an over-abundance, for the created purpose of over-consumption.
So long as the Macroman’s sociopathic worldview prevails, humanity is doomed. And I mean that literally–capitalism will not save mankind or all the other animals, plants and ecosphere we are co/interdependent upon as human beings. They simply will never understand that, that’s how brainwashed, narrow and limited is their worldview and understanding of what it is to be a human being.
I have stated to you specifically many times over the course of years that is my concern for the same problems you worry about that leads to my position. We disagree on the effects of capitalism and so on, but I would appreciate you avoiding impugning my character instead of making an argument. I could just as easily say your position is evil (or whatever), with much more evidence than you have mustered for that claim against me. I do not do so for two reasons: I do not believe such an argument is constructive, and I hold a general default position that people have good intentions unless evidence proves otherwise. If I thought more people would go without healthcare under free markets, I wouldn’t be for them. I do not have a “sociopathetic worldview,” and I resent that assertion. Your entire comment above just says “Macromab is immoral and does not understand all the things that I do, in my infinite wisdom.” A lawyer, especially one your age, should know that line of attack goes nowhere.
So it’s fine for the seller to use actual slaves in production, steal the resources necessary for production, and pollute and destroy the common environment as long as the seller and the buyer mutually agree? Free trade.
love it . . please return. The DNA of these comment sections is getting pretty thin these days.
C’mon, at least pretend to have good faith.
Slavery is ruled out — voluntary, “free” trade, and slaves are people, as you’ll agree.
“Steal the resources necessary for production” — what? This is the opposite of what I’m arguing for.
“Pollute and destroy the common environment…” — Look at what I said, Michael, and note that wealth and honest courts are the two factors most closely associated with environmental health.
Macroman:
Clearly there is no point in me dissecting any of this because you and I aren’t even operating in the same moral sphere, much less the same factual or economic reality. And as far as “inactionable”, “childish” and “clear internal contradictions” so is everything you believe in as a function of your “economic worldview”. Hell it’s baked into the very model you claim to teach others.
You believe your idiotic models have some relevance to the human condition. I don’t. And by and large they don’t, whether I believe them or not. You believe what you’ve spent your life studying matters–it doesn’t, except to you, those like you, and those who depend upon your silly immoral not reflective of human condition valueless bullshit models and theories, to propagandize human beings into not understand and value a totally different set of possible human values.
Spoken like the true moral leper you are. It is, of course, all about you and satisfaction of your Id, and the ideas you cabin so tightly in some misplaced morally vacuous conception of liberty to do precisely as you please.
The funny (i.e sad) thing to me is, both of the things you’ve claimed you’ve done for financial remuneration (financial industry hoodoo, and teaching your idiotic ideas to undergrads) is perhaps the most dependent non-productive least morally defensible endeavors I could ever imagine wasting a life on. But hey, at least society is a place where you and Trump can run your grifts and not end up with your head on a stick. So I guess you should be pretty thankful all things being equal that people like me don’t believe in the “utility” or “morality” of violence, but patience and hoping to realign peoples values and ability to reason their way to seeing a better future than the non-future you and those like you believe is possible.
The only point I can decipher from that inane ramble (especially the last sentence — WHAT?!?!) is that you think I’m immoral because of my views and my profession(s). OK….hmmm how do I respond? Um, you’re immoral, and you’re a, uh, dirty lawyer. There, we’re even. Maybe we can have a conversation now that I’ve stooped to your intellectual level (just kidding, I know we won’t — you’ll just say “Yaaawwwnnnn”). Oh, and all that stuff aboutt models, etc. — we’ve discussed that at length before. Based on what you say above, you have no recollection of any of it. Still attacking that straw man that “believes” in the models, huh? I guess we’ve reached the end of the road regarding your intellectual faculties (or rather we there 18 months ago). Way to take a comment that basically says “I agree except three points” response and turn it into name-calling. I forgot you lack any class.
You have an odd definition for “grand total”, apparently.
Is that how Voodoo-Science works? I take you at your word.
Sorry, “grand total of two.” I addressed the Hillary misspelling in another reply, anyway.
Now, tell me again how you said “directed,” not “vetted,” what the law of large numbers says about Jews, about Hammurabi inventing coinage and for what purpose, about U.S. per capita aid to Isreal, and how it is legitimate to treat all Jews as if they were Netanyahu himself. No? Gonna keep writing “lol” and crying?
“Now, tell me again how you said “directed,” ”
OK, Snowden directed the release of the documents.
Hammurabi invented coinage to make it easier for Economists to steal.
The US gives a bazillion dollars for every Israeli each month.
Jews slaughtered more Arabs per capita than any Muslim group.
(Not sure how that helps you but far be it from me to deny a man a good night’s sleep.
I understand Bushmills works but you will feel better in the morning if you stick to 30 year old Oban)
” I guess we’ve reached the end of the road regarding your intellectual faculties (or rather we [sic] there 18 months ago).”
That’s three and counting … but the loan shark claims he’s only made a grand total of
one, wait, it wastwo, no, make it three and that’s just within the week.Don’t forget the reply to Mona instead of Anonymous! You can’t add, but VECTOR ALGEBRA, dude. Vectors always point to Jews!
“You can’t add, but VECTOR ALGEBRA, dude. ”
Do you use Algebra in your incantations? How else are you going to make a graph of profit?
You mock the vector because it describes both direction and magnitude; items paired rarely in your arguments.
Without direction, one is just a scalar value (there’s a pun in there!).
I’m not mocking vectors. I’m mocking you. But other than that, the wit just oozes from that comment.
“We give $6 million per Israeli citizen in aid to Isreal each year. I’m really good at math.” – nuf said
The grossest manifestation of your world view exists fully in agreement with Hillary and trump, the hundreds of billions of dollars fully owed to America and Americans by those who have off shored their trillions in profits in service to the greed and power needs of the richest. The approximately $800 billion in taxes stolen have had a dire impact on the American economy, and for those who died of lack of adequate medical care, for those who live their lives with their families on the streets with no homes, those whose futures and those of their families will be forever impacted because they were unable to educate themselves, on and on, just because some slimy hyper rich person decided the taxes are ‘unfair’. The entire pool of Americans rich and otherwise supplies that which makes America great, not the ignorance proffered by those like trump who trumpet make america great. Without the people, with only the richest making up the pool, we are nothing. Hillary had a chance to win the election, she could have come out as I asked to demand the repatriation of the hundreds of billions in stolen taxes, but doing that would have caused problems with her benefactors, the large donors to her campaign, her foundation and to her; instead she like trump sent out a minion to offer pennies on the dollar. That is the sickness you Macroman subscribe to, it is sickness that so few have so much, while the richness of this nation is denied all who are Americans, whether they be off the Mayflower or just having crossed the border, we will be richest as a nation when we are all rich.
Your name is actually Jimbo, isn’t it?
With this, we’re getting somewhere. This is what we should be thinking about, the things we can do on a daily basis to build a decent society worth defending. The issues you raise here are ones I’ve been thinking about for a long time and want to be working to address. The whole Russian Hacking story, as important as it genuinely is, still pales in comparison to the basic task of building our democracy and opposing both oligarchy and authoritarian dictatorship. I read a good piece in the Washington Post that gave me some perspective on this. It was written by Danielle Allen, and titled “Cicero Used to be Boring…” Now, I’m sure she is a CIA agent, or an Islamo-fascist, take your pick, but she talks about the need in times like these to look beyond whatever conflict that is raging and keep the main goal, defending our democracy, in sight. She also talks about how men like Trump know that all they have to do is keep stirring up trouble to keep people worked up and distracted. Look at how easily they are able, with our help, to put like-minded people at each other’s throats. So, try not to buy into it. The important thing is what we are doing daily in our own lives to make change. Reading Wendell Berry’s The Unsettling of America is a good place to start.
@ Robert F
Fair enough, and agreed.
Now, I don’t find the “Russian hacking story” important–genuinely or otherwise, hell it ranks so far below so many actual issues affecting America and Americans that I don’t give it any thought whatsoever except when people are trying to claim it is a “fact” when it hasn’t been established as such.
But this is a free country, and if/when it is proved the leaked true information about an American political candidate caused some people to change their vote to the point it changed an election outcome (assuming you can prove that and I’ve never seen anything that remotely resembles that necessary proof) then you are entitled to give that fact any weight you choose to, and I’ll support you in doing so.
But that won’t mean you’ve convinced me it is all that important in the grand scheme of things, or just another case of American chickens coming home to roost. That’s the problem with ceding the moral high ground to your purported opponents. Nobody gives a shit when they fuck you using the same methods you use to fuck so many other innocent people all over the globe.
Absolutely.
As far as your first post above, I agree with the things you had to say about the elements of a necessary path for a resurgence of the nominal “left/progressives.” I also agree with what you had to say about “price” not reflecting externalized costs. These things are incredibly important to think about and work on. Those comments are what brought to mind the work of Wendell Berry.
Speaking of Snowden – how about publishing some more of those documents? Even SIDToday series will be years before we catch up to 2013 – and there’s a whole lot more.
I hear you on Lemann’s last paragraph. I think it is clear he means that Snowden is the person who decided to steal the data with the aim of making it public by giving it to reporters like you. It is true that Snowden abdicated all responsibility for what was published. He assumed that a journalist like you or papers like the NY Times and WAPO would only publish materials that would not give aid to the enemy or expose CIA agents in the field, and so on. But he did intend for some of what he turned over to you to be leaked to the press. So Lemann’s point is that Snowden is the primary agent here. He made the first call. Doesn’t seem like a falsehood to me. And Lemann did damn the book under review, as you point out. I don’t think the editor missed anything.
Snowden didn’t “abdicate all responsibility”… he conferred the responsibility onto others that were supposed to be trustworthy and cautious when making the decisions.
If you want to argue that the NYT is unworthy of that trust, the evidence supports you.
But that still doesn’t make it Snowden who made the decision, as was falsely claimed.
“But he did intend for some of what he turned over to you to be leaked to the press”?
A leak to the press was meant to be leaked to the press?
Brilliant point.
” This episode illustrates yet again why everyone is well-advised not to believe assertions from any authority or institution that are unaccompanied by evidence you can see and evaluate for yourself.”
Same thing is true in science where one of the first things any graduate student learns is not to trust anything claimed in any publication, including those from even highly respected journals, unless the claims had been independently verified by other scientists/laboratories.
It is called “critical thinking” which unfortunately too many, including some of those who pride themselves as being smart, are lacking. :)
“This episode illustrates yet again why everyone is well-advised not to believe assertions from any authority or institution that are unaccompanied by evidence you can see and evaluate for yourself.”
How true.
The trouble is that so many powerful and important people seem to revere the NYT so much that it really doesn’t matter how many times they get taken down in articles like this. I’ve never understood that. Why is one newspaper so influential that it has that kind of power?
When the US government talks, people listen.
Haha!
Good work, Glenn. NYT again pinned to the mat.
Honestly curious here…
Mr. Lehman states:
” In the Snowden affair, the press didn’t decide what stayed secret, and neither did Congress, the White House or the N.S.A. Snowden did.”
Then Mr. Greenwald counters with:
“Not a single document that saw the light of day was published because Snowden decided it should be: literally not one. Snowden played no decision-making role whatsoever in determining which documents were published and which were withheld.”
BUT…by asking the press “to withhold those [documents] which could harm innocent people or destroy legitimate programs” didn’t Mr. Snowden, by virtue of exclusion, play a role in what was published? So while not explicitly telling the press what TO publish, he asked them to NOT publish certain items. Isn’t that playing a role?
No he didn’t. No evidence exists for that claim.
Snowden did demand that damaging items not be published; that could be described as “certain items”.
You still haven’t read the book (No Place to Hide).
That’s too broad to justify “certain items” as being designated by Snowden. To my knowledge, all he said was, in sum and substance: “Here’s the trove. Not all of it should be published. Use your discretion in deciding where that applies.”
‘Yeah, you’re right. Certain items’ could be considered to be ‘specific items’ which did not happen.
Snowden directed the process to be followed, as you note, in broad terms.
Mr. Greenwald
“…….As Snowden told Time: “There have of course been some stories where my calculation of what is not public interest differs from that of reporters, but it is for this precise reason that publication decisions were entrusted to journalists and their editors.”………”
Which is a good clue why the documents should not have been distributed in the first place. Journalist are journalist – not national security experts. Journalist write about and distribute stories. Journalists are not trained in national security issues, and worse, always have a political agenda which makes it dangerous in their hands. Is there a better example on earth than Assange?
Protecting Snowden is always the first priority of the publishers of these documents. Ultimately, Snowden is responsible for the publishing of all documents even if he left it to journalists to ultimately decide which ones were published. He was the one that illegally stole the documents.
However I do believe that Snowden was sincere in his reasons to release the documents – just misguided.
“National security experts” also have political agendas, and everyone, regardless of their expertise, takes actions in their own perceived self interest. “Experts” will cover up misdeeds, “journalists” will sensationalize, and both will make mistakes and lie at times. Your position simply shifts the power over information (in an unconstitutional direction).
I agree that Snowden is responsible for the information being released, but the way you put it is overstated. Journalists decide what to publish, how to publish it, and when. Snowden could have leaked the documents to a journalist that did not want to publish it, theoretically, and none of the information would have been leaked in that case. Yes, I am “responsible” for fathering a child, but I am not responsible for birthing the child.
Snowden was only “misguided” if you believe one or more of the following false claims: the information released did not prove unconstitutional conduct by the NSA and other government entities, Snowden did not read and understand the Constitution to which he swore an oath on multiple occasions, the revelations led to the deaths or injuries of innocent people and/or exposed secret agents to harm, Snowden was working for and/or remunerated by the Russians, Chinese, or anyone else.
It’s no surprise that a strong authoritarian, Craig Summers, takes the position he does. Such types supported crucifying Daniel Ellsberg and the FBI Burglars (that led to the Church Committee). Opposition to “big government” has a huge exception for domestic and foreign intel agencies, as well as the military. Those they worship and protect, no matter the crimes they commit.
exactly. Snowden here was participating in the same type of accountability he was holding our government to..
“Journalists decide what to publish, how to publish it, and when. ”
Yes they do and that is why the spooks will never forgive Snowden. I’m glad Snowden exposed the reality of our surveillance state but he did give effin journalists the whole spy game. (at least Patreaus gave everything to other spies)
macroman
“……..Snowden was only “misguided” if you believe one or more of the following false claims: the information released did not prove unconstitutional conduct by the NSA and other government entities, Snowden did not read and understand the Constitution to which he swore an oath on multiple occasions, the revelations led to the deaths or injuries of innocent people and/or exposed secret agents to harm, Snowden was working for and/or remunerated by the Russians, Chinese, or anyone else…….”
Obviously, Snowden was not working for anyone but the US government. He is not a Russian spy or working for the Russian government in any capacity (unlike Assange in my opinion). Of course, we will likely never know the damage done to US security, but to suggest there is none would be as foolish as suggesting that the CIA, NSA etc. never did anything illegal (violated the constitution or international law). Of course they do, and they have a history to back that up. So it follows that some damage was done to national security. How much? I have no idea except what is (willingly) published by US Intelligence. As has been mentioned numerous times (and in this article), Snowden went far beyond US Constitutional violations – yet he also proudly acknowledged identifying Chinese hackers using the same tools.
In addition, the fact that there might be intelligence in the hands of publishers of US intelligence documents that are too sensitive to publish should be enough for you to understand the use of the word “misguided”. Should US Intelligence store all their data at the New York Times and the Intercept – and how safe would US intelligence be under those circumstances? After all, Greenwald threatened holy hell for US intelligence if Snowden was harmed which just indicates what he might hold in his possession:
“…….. “The US government should be on its knees every day begging that nothing happen to Snowden, because if something does happen to him, all the information will be revealed and it could be its worst nightmare,”…….”
Misguided seems appropriate to me. Again I say this agreeing that Snowden probably did this out of concern for the over reach of some of these programs.
Thanks.
Tag it all with “National Security” and brand those who ask for accountability as unpatriotic.
National Security is the last refuge of the scoundrel!
Mr. Snowden did his patriotic duty by revealing grossly unconstitutional activities. What have you done lately?
What a cringe-inducing opinion. Those national security experts are the ones being exposed. Jeez.
But you needn’t, Security State Daddy is all going to make it better for you.
l could not disagree more cs. perhaps you trust, blindly, the machinations of the u.s. government – one the that repeatedly lies, misleads, propagandizes – but most do not. and should not.
just how much do you prefer not to know? how deep should the dark be for your pleasure?
when asked how much the american people should know about their government she replied: ‘almost everything’.
good advice.
edward snowden took great risk to inform you of your government’s illegal actions against all of us. too bad you don’t appreciate it.
Ah, at the Academy of Trust Only The Government. Is that where these degrees are issued?
always have a political agenda which makes it dangerous in their hands.
That ‘agenda’ you describe would be to inform/educate the public. Granted, as Greenwald points out, they also try to misinform the public.
I love this statement! It’s TOTALLY self-defeating in nature. The first part “Snowden is responsible” is directly countered by the second part “left it to journalists” thereby acknowledging Snowden did NOT in fact publish anything.
Redundant in nature……anything stolen is by definition, illegal.
This should have been in blockquotes. Ooops.
I disagree with your first paragraph but strongly agree with the second.
Excusing for a moment Snowden’s particular case, in general it is a good thing that journalists obtain this type of information. Otherwise, who the hell else is going to explain it to us!? Any journalist worth a damn can overcome a lack of expertise by reaching out to those that maintain it. For example, it’s pretty well-known that Glenn relied on Bruce Schneier for technical information. Nobody holds Glenn out to be some technical expert on the nuances of the NSA programs.
As for the second paragraph: Snowden is responsible for all the content taken, whether published or not. That’s just common sense; if you improperly take records, you are accountable for them. If I break into craig’s house because I suspect him of wrongdoing, I wouldn’t ransack his entire file cabinet hoping to capture the pertinent records in the process, and then expect an “ends justifies the means” argument to insulate me from allegations that I stole all of his correspondence as part of my effort. Glenn tries to rationalize this by saying he and other news organizations have the ultimate control over what’s published. That’s fine and correct in the literal sense, but when looked at closely, it’s a weak argument. It’s the argument I’d expect from Snowden’s pugilist.
But if Snowden DID NOT intend for all these documents to be published, then why did he take them all? Snowden claimed after all that he vetted every single document. If he applied such granular scrutiny and passed them on to journalists, doesn’t this implicitly tell us he had no qualms that the contents generally be disclosed? Otherwise wouldn’t he have omitted records accordingly. Devil’s advocate: Give him the benefit of the doubt and say that he was afraid he might have missed an SSN, name of source, or some other minute information that required journalists exercise discretion and apply redactions. If that was the case, shouldn’t a significantly greater percentage of the archive have been published at this point. The faucet is still dripping but it’s considerably fewer and far between. My understanding is that the percentage of docs published is below 1% of the records taken using even the most conservative estimate of the records stolen! Does this suggest that the other 99% wasn’t published at the discretion of journalists and if so, what does that say about Snowden’s compromising them? One counterargument I’ve heard is that much of the information that remains unpublished is for background purposes only. I highly doubt this explanation because one thing TI has done relatively well is including the underlying slides and documents to support their conclusions. If merely background, why not include it to strengthen the argument even if redundant. Snowden’s claim is frankly false as evident by the John Oliver video years back. He may have been familiar with their general content but he certaintly didn’t peruse every file including the exhaustive SIGINT Today series. Glenn knows this:
Because without them, isolated or otherwise decontextualize documents would make the programs he was trying to expose a) both difficult to explain, b) difficult to understand for those trying to explain, c) difficult to explain both the depth and breadth of exactly how these programs work, d) all the various parts, players and others it takes (private sector and government) to actually carry out this level and scope of mass warrantless surveillance.
The problem isn’t that he took to much or too little. The problem is, unfortunately, not enough people care about their fundamental right to be free from surveillance except and unless there is probable cause, based on identifiable facts brought before a neutral judicial official, that you have or about to commit a crime, such that a warrant can be issued to engage in such surveillance in the first instance.
Here’s a newsflash–mass warrantless surveillance of millions if not billions of human beings is not keeping anyone “safer”. In fact it makes us less safe, for a variety of reasons–should I list them for you?
And that’s not even getting into how brainwashed a people has to be to not care about the fact all of the movements and communications and their faces and medical records and every other bit of personal information is being collected, stored (and not adequately protected) and disseminated for Gawd knows what purposes (and it sure as shit isn’t to keep us safe unless Petrobras and Angela Merkel and . . . are somehow a “terrorism threat” to me, mine and my fellow countrymen.
Thanks for your response. Fair enough on your first point although I question that the documents – which definitely contained top secret secret unpublished information – were always secure in the possession of Greenwald and Poitras. I agree entirely with your second point, and it’s been clear for a long time that Greenwald protects Snowden like a client. I also believe that Greenwald protects Assange as well believing that his role in exposing “empire” far outweighs whatever attempts Assange makes to influence an election.
Thanks.
I am in total agreement with the opening paragraph. The more I know about the subject being reported on, the more I notice that’s wrong about the reporting. I have no choice but to be open to the possibility that articles on subjects I know little about are equally erroneous.
@ Glenn
Another great piece!
Out of curiosity, when you write media criticism pieces, and particularly ones where you document and call out various media for their factual fabrications, falsifications, misrepresentations, and/or distortions–do you immediately upon publishing (or prior seeking “comment”) also send a copy to the editor and journalist responsible and ask for comment or directly for a retraction?
I’m conflicted about whether a journalist should be required by practice, ethics or civility to ask prior to publishing (his/her critique) for comment or correction, but I absolutely believe you should, after publication, be on record as asking for a direct retraction when you go to the trouble of documenting a factual fabrications, falsifications, misrepresentations or distortions–for the very simple reason that it gives you further evidence to write a follow-up piece, or append the original, on the equally important topic of why those editors and journalists refuse to respond to the critique and demonstrable falsehoods. As you’ve so effectively done with WaPo and Guardian recently.
Seems to me no better way to force people (consumers of media) to question any undeserved reputation for veracity that a jouranalist, editor or in the many cases the entire publications may possess, whether it be the NYT, Washington Post, Breitbart or any other (including The Intercept), that too many partisans use as a shorthand for “trustworthiness, reliability or veracity.”
That’s where the fight is, at least at a “extra-partisan” level–to get all people, and specifically those who follow your work, to not show any sources of authority any undeserved trust as an initial matter.
In other words, expose them directly and often enough for their propensity for factual fabrications, and refusal to directly answer critiques about those fabrications, to in effect change public percept of the media in the correct way–which is to demand documentable/verifiable proof of all assertions rather than authoritative suppositions or opinions masquerading as something else (i.e. propaganda) masquerading as news reporting.
I mean people like you, me and people who are trained to really look at any document regardless of its producer through a critical and skeptical lens, have long understood how problematic are mainstream media practices. The question is, is it purposeful or is it laziness? And I think the second question (asking them to respond with an explanation of how it came to be that a factual misrepresentation made it to print as a function of editorial safeguards, fact-checking or lack thereof) sheds a lot of light on that fundamental question–are major mainstream publications (journalists or editors) in this nation spreading purposeful propaganda or are their factual errors simply “nature of the beast” effects or manifestations (i.e zeal to be first, lack of fact-checking resources, insular worldview, lack of intelligence, partisan agenda (actually fine with me if disclosed or self-evident), confirmation bias etc. etc. etc.)
In any event, keep up the good work. You’ve really been hitting your media criticisms out of the park lately.
Can’t recall the name of the person, but someone affiliated with WaPoo tweeted yesterday about how many new investigative reporters they were currently in the process of hiring.
I tweeted back asking if they were also in the market for fact-checkers. I got no response. :-s
The fiction of journalist Nicole Perlroth
Glenn, you should have included the most amusing set-to you had months ago with Nicole Perlroth. She swore up and down on Twitter that you had the ability, and in fact did, “censor” what Snowden documents could be published anywhere. She claimed you had done so vis-a-vis her outlet, The New York Times.
You, of course, denied this and demanded evidence, and she said she was “on it.” At least once you reminded all of this promise, and, as far as I know, Perlroth never located any (because it doesn’t exist).
I don’t think it is reasonable to try and transfer responsibility to the New York Times. Such an approach assumes the New York Times exercises editorial control over what they publish. The reality of the publishing world is somewhat different.
In the real world, under the pressure of tight deadlines, a reporter is likely to receive a request to submit a new Snowden story within an hour. Add another 5 minutes for proof-reading and ‘fact checking’ and the story is then published. Accuracy is likely to suffer in this process. At one time, media companies were concerned that lack of accuracy would negatively affect their reputations. They now realize, however, that the more inaccurate a story is, the more controversy it generates, and more people will click to read it. In addition, it creates the opportunity for a follow up story, correcting the first story with even more inaccuracies.
So fact checkers, in addition to their primary role of ensuring that no one named in the article has the resources to sue the publisher, are also asked to introduce several factual inaccuracies in every story to spice it up. So it’s not always fair to blame the original author.
Personally, I think the new publishing paradigm is a good one. Trying to find the rare nugget of truth in a news article is a ‘Where’s Waldo?’ puzzle that is much more interesting than the dry accumulation of facts that the media used to present as ‘news’.
You made me throw up my coffee. Now I have to clean my keyboard.
well i gave greenwald the inside scoop on networked telepathy and all he did was delete my posts
You should have seen that coming…
Every time I have seen Snowden speak he comes across as an eminently principled person. I am impressed by his thoughtfulness and respect his insight. He has the strength of conviction that persuades me. I hope that he can have a fair and open trial and one day return to the USA.
Nonetheless, Mr. Greenwald, I think that you have been spoiled by working with a whistleblower who gave you access top secret files, in that you now seem to think that is now the only standard of evidence acceptable.
I would really like to know this:
Would you please explain what evidence would satisfy you that there was Russian hacking and interference in the US election with the goal of promoting the election of Donald Trump?
I think your skepticism is eternally valid. No one can claim that the judgement of the 19 intel agencies could, without hard evidence to back it up, be as credible as the Snowden files. There is ultimately an element of trust in this type of case, which the audience must decide to grant. However, it’s not just trust in the 19 intel agencies, but also trust in the judgements of the people who have seen the top secret report.
Does the fact that they did not provide sufficient public evidence that could make a persuasive court case mean that they do not have that evidence? I present to you that they made the best case that they could to the public without revealing important sources and methods because doing so would only help an aggressive enemy.
Why did they 19 intel agencies bother making that report? It is likely because no one listened when Clinton and Obama said it during the election campaign. In fact, Trump was in absolute denial and moving parallel with the goals of the Russian interference campaign. Trumps’ lies and disinformation were (and still are) spinning the American public into thinking that Putin is a friend and potential ally, rather than an enemy of global liberal democracy.
So, the report by 19 intel agencies serves a public good, if they are correct and have this evidence. Yes, the evidence is not made public in a direct and conclusive way but a strong circumstantial case is made and the American public must now decide if they trust the 19 intel agencies and all of the leadership that has seen full report and supports the conclusions.
Is this not reasonable? Why continue to rail against it, if it is serving public good?
You have been reading the “railing” of a different Glenn Greenwald than I have. The only thing I’ve seen him denounce is acceptance of profoundly serious claims in the absence of evidence.
He’s not declared the conclusions false, he’s not denied the Russian government could have been involved. All he’s done is highlight the myriad times the Intelligence Community has grossly lied, or made severe errors.
And he is entirely right to do that.
Thank you for your reply, Mona.
I agree that it is his right to voice his disagreement. I agree with skepticism and helping people to have critical thinking. I agree that the report has insufficient evidence. The fact that the public is here having to trust in their institutions and leadership to believe what has been presented, and its conclusions, is reasonable. I agree that the American government has done many bad things, been hypocritical and betrayed trust. These are all good points and worthy of being part of the discourse.
However, what I take issue with is the vehemence of his attack—it comes across as an attack. His active campaign to get his points out into the public sphere, it comes across as the same attack being made by Putin and Trump…who are complete liars and peddlers of disinformation! Mr. Greenwald it contributing to the gaslighting purveyed by Trump and Putin because he comes at it so hard and with such strong rhetoric. He’s running hard in parallel with those liars. That is what I object to.
What if it is true? What if there is evidence? Are his efforts then actually working against truth?
I would be satisfied if he just explained what he wants in evidence to accept the agencies and leadership claims. Instead of sewing doubt constantly. Trump supporters are just so hard to convince on things where there is clear evidence. This is just too important an issue.
That’s both preposterous and absurd. I’d thought you might be a serious commenter, but now see otherwise.
I would suggest actually reading Greenwald’s articles related to this issue then taking the word of his detractors in the MSM and social media. You provide zero evidence of any “gas-lighting” by Greenwald.
Anonymous, your concerns were reasonable and fairly stated. And along come the regulars here with their incivility, personals attacks, and enforcement of the 11th commandment, Thou Shalt Not Question Glenn. I look to alternative sources for a check on the mainstream news sources and come here and see what is in many ways a mirror image. You make a point I made earlier and got a ton of grief for: that Glenn is doing his job by raising these questions, but there is an odd vehemence to his defense and he goes beyond merely casting doubt on their conclusions. Here’s an example from the Tucker Carlson interview: “To sit here and sort of suggest that Vladimir Putin lurks behind every American problem, to concoct these wild, elaborate conspiracy theories, to try and convince Americans that Russia is this grave threat to the United States … ” he explained, “I think it’s incredibly dangerous.” I don’t see anyone suggesting that Putin lurks behind every American problem. It’s this sort of over-statement that invites criticism and dismissal, and he doesn’t seem able to see that. By the way, don’t Glenn’s comments amount to charges of an elaborate conspiracy? Where is his evidence? If you raise these questions, look out. You’ll be told that you are one of those detested creatures, a Democrat, who is only trying to nit-pick minor points in order to cloud the issue, part of a nefarious scheme to deflect blame. It would be entirely possible to raise questions and express skepticism about the government’s claims without all of this excess baggage and unproven innuendo. But GG isn’t doing that, and he’s undermining his case. The grief he’s getting is extreme, but he should be aware that he’s done a fair amount of smearing himself; it’s more restrained but he uses a broad brush. His comments on the “coastal elites,” the DC elites, the Democrats, move along the same lines as his critics. They’re both saying the same thing: if you disagree with me, you must be a stooge. Your response was restrained, reasonable, and civil, and it didn’t take long for you to be attacked, demeaned, and labelled a troll. Thanks for weighing in and your points were sound. Please know that not everyone in the US thinks and acts this way.
His “sound” point and his conclusion were and are that the IC would be never be giving ay evidence, Ever, on any of this, so it’s time for us all to have faith. What’s sound and reasonable about that? And what does it accomplish? And how does that hold up put out by someone who began with his comments pretending to ask Glenn to explain what unknown, and forever to be unknown according to the “anon” person, would satisfy Glenn’s overwrought and unwarranted skepticism?
Because they were ordered to by the President for propaganda purposes. Obama had his legacy roundly rejected in favor of a clown. He has to blame somebody, and nothing has ever been his fault, so it must be the Russians.
Oh, so you’ve already assumed your conclusion. How surprising.
Quite the opposite. The only “strong circumstantial case” here points to the conclusion that U.S. intel agencies should never be trusted. Furthermore, James Clapper testified to the conclusion you wish Greenwald to accept, and Clapper only lies, as any literate U.S. citizen already knows.
The only thing your comment will do is make people suspect you are a subtle troll for the CIA.
I guess you were replying to me rather than Mona. I am not a troll, just some anonymous Canadian trying to make sense of what is happening to the United States and the World. I do not think I have been reflecting troll behaviour here.
Macroman to -Mona- [sic]
January 10 2017, 7:26 a.m.
[10]:26 AM.
If you need something to correct, why don’t you address my first comment below and explain to us again, referencing the article above, that Snowden “vets” stories at TI based on his leaks. We fellow commenters, like you, very much enjoy your intellectual honesty, precision, and fortitude. /s
“Jews invented money.” — nuf said
“If you need something to correct, ”
You generate the need. I just note things.
Why did you put ‘vets’ in quotes? The word is “directed”; that is what I said, way back when.
Snowden “directed” the way in which documents were to be released. You seem to want to believe directing the release process implies vetting documents … but then you teach pseudo-science, do you not?
““Jews invented money.” — nuf said”
You are pretty loose with your citations.
Hammurabi invented coinage to facilitate barter.
Jews created the usury and money-changing roles … i.e. to control the medium by which business is conducted.
That you gush over bankers is, well, self-serving to say the least.
“Way back when” means 1/30/2016, when you said:
https://theintercept.com/2016/01/28/israeli-drone-feeds-hacked-by-british-and-american-intelligence/?comments=1#comment-196862
You have a grand total of one legitimate correction (spelling of “behaviorally”) and one legitimate answer (from a question arising from me missing a line in an article mentioning a spat with North Korea) to me in our entire conversation, and both times you were really rude about it even though I did not argue the points. Meanwhile, I’ve corrected you, with proof, on claims that Snowden “vets” articles here, that I and Lin Ming are the same, and various other items covered below, all of which you’ve ignored. This is all because you are, intellectually, a heap of trash. To make that point abundantly clear, I had a member of my staff (don’t worry, money is no object) collect and organize every comment you’ve ever made on this site so that I can demonstrate that you are (i) stupid, (ii) dishonest, and (iii) hateful, just like everyone always tells you. Almost everything has citations included below, but if there is one omitted that you’d like, feel free to ask. Otherwise, you’ll never have the benefit of hearing from me again.
I cover the “vet” controversy twice in other comments to you on this thread. I’ll trust you’ll come back and explain to me how “logic” means you’re not flat-out lying about saying “directed,” not “vetted.”
I do not see a quote from you that says exactly “Jews created money,” and for that I sincerely apologize. I will double check in the morning just in case, but it may be that I was thinking of the following:
That is most certainly not the history of money. I am tempted to divulge my identity at this point, but I’ll resist the urge and just assure you that you’re tickling your tonsils with your toes talking to me about this.
Since you repeated that bullshit today, let me just address how you put it above. As an aid, I’m going to ring a bell whenever you’re wrong.
Currency (coins and bills) and money are not the same thing, and the use of money is well documented anthropologically for at least the past 15,000 years. Furthermore, coinage predates Hammurabi, even in law, and his code simply codified an already existing practice — the code itself makes that clear. We know for a fact the Egyptians were using bars and coins at least 2,000 years before Hammurabi. I have money in my possession that predates Hammurabi.
Similarly, the charging of interest predates Judaism by thousands of years. Furthermore, interest arises from time preferences, the preference for goods and services (or money to buy them) in the present over the future, in general. All humans have a “positive time preference,” and there is disagreement as to why, but the most straightforward reason is that we are mortal and we know it, hence now is better than later, so to speak. There is nothing unique to the Jews about “usury,” and in fact I have never found (in years of research) credible evidence of a sedentary, agricultural (modern money-using) society that featured free loans. Also, “money changing” is documented prior to Judaism and, in its full modern form, was first practiced by Christians in Italy. There is no basis whatsoever for the claim that “Jews created the usury and money-changing roles…” — This is just an insidious myth, which, as Mona has frequently tried to explain to you, correctly, derives from the Catholic Church banning usury, leaving Jews an ethnic (or religious or whatever) monopoly on lending in the middle ages.
To even utter the phrase “invented coinage to facilitate barter” makes one dumber. Money is used to avoid the constraints of barter. Money eradicates barter, it does not facilitate it. Money facilitates trade by doing away with the need to barter.
Finally, I have never “gush[ed] over bankers,” even when I was one, and you know as much about me as you do about everything else. Do you have any evidence that my interests are served by gushing over bankers and that I, in fact, have done so?
In my review of all your comments this evening, there are a lot of obvious, repeated errors, but two stand out and seem particularly important to you, so I thought I’d do you the favor of saving you the embarrassment of making these points again. You frequently make the claim that the U.S. provides Israel with $6 million in aid per capita. This just demonstrates how unjustified your constant declarations of your math skills are: $38 billion (let’s pretend that’s for one year and not ten, like you do) divided by 6 million people = $6,333 per capita. Also, you should look up the law of large numbers. You frequently use it incorrectly to say things like “Remember the LLN! Just because most Jews are bad, that doesn’t mean all Jews are bad.” (This is paraphrasing at least three of your comments in which you specifically reference the LLN, links to which I’d be happy to provide if you’d like to deny making this elementary error.) In this context, a correct application of the LLN would be, “Since the expected moral value of Jews is low, a large enough sample of Jews will have a low mean moral value — that is, the mean of the sample will approach the expected value as the sample size increases.” The LLN ALLOWS for morally laudable Jews (to stay within your fucked-up worldview) but does not MEAN there are morally laudable Jews. What your point seems to be is “Be careful of the fallacy of division,” not “Remember the LLN.”
I’ll just finish with some particularly choice quotes to stamp out any doubt that you are a remarkably hateful and stupid person that would do the rest of us a favor by ceasing your participation in this community.
https://theintercept.com/2016/09/16/fec-republicans-kill-attempt-to-block-foreign-money-in-u-s-elections/?comments=1#comment-284217
https://theintercept.com/2016/11/06/nine-ways-the-u-s-voting-system-is-rigged-but-not-against-donald-trump/?comments=1#comment-304583
https://theintercept.com/2017/01/05/israelis-want-soldier-executed-wounded-palestinian-suspect-camera-go-free/?comments=1#comment-333577
https://theintercept.com/2016/03/30/complying-with-israeli-censorship-order-nyt-conceals-name-of-soldier-who-shot-wounded-palestinian/#comment-216759
“This is all because you are, intellectually, a heap of trash.”
lol!
And there are others; Absolutely hilarious …
No case, none, has been made — not weak, not strong, not anything at all, not one single piece of verifiable evidence has been published.
After the usual buttering up preface to Glenn by you, same as so many other people who pretend to be sincere, such as you are pretending to be, you jump into the false misleading question to him of: “Would you please explain what evidence would satisfy you that there was Russian hacking and interference in the US election with the goal of promoting the election of Donald Trump?” Why ask that question, since at this time there has been no evidence presented at all? You ask it because you are pretending that Glenn is being stubborn or that he is, “spoiled by working with a whistleblower who gave you access top secret files, in that you now seem to think that is now the only standard of evidence acceptable.” That laughable accusation or bit of guess work is some really lame way of trying to make your disingenuous argument posed as ‘sincere’ interest in ‘getting to the truth’ by asking the unanswerable.
If you’re honestly interested in what evidence might make the case that the IC isn’t making, how about demanding that the IC make their case rather than asking someone, or anyone, who has been provided no evidence from the IC to tell you what unknowns the IC must make known before those unknowns are worth anything? If that sentence made no sense to you, it’s because your line of questioning makes no sense.
Kit, thanks for your reply.
What I said about Snowden was not buttering up. It is what I sincerely feel. I also felt that I should say that as a comment on the actual topic of this article, since I was about to talk about something that this article does not deal with.
I agree with the stance that sources and methods must be protected. That makes sense to me.
I is not really correct to claim that no case has been made, since a lot of evidence has been just coming off what is in the public discourse now. NYT exposés on Russian troll factories, evidence that the Podesta emails came out of a large and organized spearfishing effort, the connection of a number of false news sites to Russian government affiliations…It is not just the Intelligence community that is making the case.
Ok, so Glen can not know what kind of evidence would satisfy him. I guess I am looking for him to say hypothetical examples of what would do it. Maybe that is a naive question on my part.
“Why did they 19 intel agencies bother making that report?”
where is this report located? do they actually call themselves “the 19 intel agencies”??
maybe they release info via “tweets”, or whatever the kids are calling that crap
if some new justice league has formed in the US i think we all should know where the website is. i want the t-shirt at least
John, I do not really think your question was genuine, but giving you the benefit of the doubt. Here is the link. The reference to 19 intel agencies comes out of the recent Senate hearing on Russian hacking and US cybersecurity. That is how the IC referred to themselves.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/01/06/us/politics/document-russia-hacking-report-intelligence-agencies.html?_r=0
i searched the .pdf briefing linked to the times article and came up empty on the reference to 19 intelligence agencies or nineteen intelligence agencies or even “hey nineteen”
but thanks anyway
I see. That particular point is what you are taking issue with. As I recall, that is how they referred to themselves when presenting to the committee in the video of the proceedings that I saw.
Let it also be said that I have no idea if the Coast Guard, one of the ODNI’s 17 agencies that they represent, were involved in the examination of evidence. However, the representatives signed off on the evidence and analysis. The written report focuses on the main agencies involved in the investigation, FBI, NSA, CIA…
like the NSA, Wolverine had only “moderate confidence”
You are aware that is a circular self-serving argument in all cases, correct? You are aware of America’s “intelligence agencies” long and verifiable documented record of lying about the most consequently events in American history, together with their long and verifiable documented history of making catastrophic blunders, mistakes and analytical failures all over the globe for decades?
Are you aware of that reality yes or no?
Now go ahead and document where the “intelligence agencies” have had great “successes” anywhere in the world? I’d wager that every time they deign to document one of their supposed “successes” when people really scrutinize it, it is either demonstrably false or has incredibly consequential “unintended” yet highly “predictable” consequences.
So my question is–why should anyone trust any “intelligence agency” on any topic or assertion they can’t or aren’t willing to provide verifiable “proof” for?
I most certainly don’t because I’m well aware of their history(ies).
But it is the epitome and perfect exemplar of how, unreasoning if not brainwashed the American people are about all things “military”, “defense” or “intelligence” that most can’t name a single “success” of any of the three in the last 65 years that doesn’t include the word “Grenada” (which is not to say that was a success, only not a catastrophic defeat or failure).
Based on the objective evidence–nobody should trust US Intelligence Agencies about much of anything. They haven’t earned that trust, but in fact precisely the opposite–skepticism of everything they say and do.
rrheard, I understand that. But I do not accept the post-truth argument. One must make the best effort to evaluate sources of information—and I am not just talking about the conclusions of Clinton, Obama, McCain, Graham, and the IC, but also a lot of investigative journalism. Then make the best informed choice. Skepticism is fine, but also it is an important issue if it is true and should not be simply dismissed because of skepticism.
Again, you’re either being dense or you’re being disingenuous. The issue isn’t being “dismissed” by skepticism. Skepticism is demanded in order to continue to try to force or encourage, however reluctantly, those who are pushing the issue in the direction of their choosing, via no verified evidence.
The issue is important whether it is true or not. Meaning that being skeptical, or more declarative, demanding actual, verified evidence from government organizations and politicians who have in the past lead us into debacles and tragedies that we and the rest of the world continue to suffer from today, is absolutely necessary. There is no way that we or others around the world should settle for what you are suggesting we should settle for. History repeatedly shows that your complacency, which is basically just another version of, “Well, they can’t show you or they would have to kill you,” is not deserved by those who are, again, pushing their agenda sans evidence.
Kit,
I was replying to rrheard who was making that case that we can believe nothing from the intel community because of their history. I was not referring to Mr. Greenwald’s arguments.
“Dense” or “disingenuous”—do you have to be insulting?
Whether or not you characterize the need to protect sources and methods as a smoke screen or a legitimate concern, this is all the information we are getting. The USA is not invading Iraq based on the IC report, they have imposed targeted sanctions on the perpetrators of the acts.
Yes, you can say that the report is flawed and be skeptical of it. No one denies that. However, there is also no evidence that it is a partisan report or that they are being deceptive at its core. In fact, most people that have read the full report agree with the conclusions, whether begrudgingly and with a lot of spin like Trump, or outright like McCain and Graham and others.
As well, the Russian hacking and disinformation campaign does not delegitimize Trump’s election, because there is no evidence of tampering with the actual voting process—besides the gerrymandering and voter suppression tactics that is well documented. However, it certainly taints his win.
It is important because it is also ample evidence that Russia is not a friend of the United States and its allies. Is any of that in dispute?
Why? Says who? Why are you bothering to pretend to make an argument or ask questions of Glenn which, as we’ve established, make no sense under the circumstances, since you’re already convinced that you will not be expecting anything at all from the IC, and that no one else should expect anything at all either.?
Your conclusion that “imposed sanctions” will be all that will come of this is also built on either your misplaced faith or more dishonesty about what you’re arguing. And making that comparison to Iraq with your claim, which you can’t know, that “sanctions” will be the end of this is again, disingenuous. I don’t care if you think or say that my honest opinion of what you’ve written is “insulting.” I’ve based it on what you’ve written. If I’m wrong to surmise that you don’t likely believe what you’ve been writing, then I would have to conclude that if you do believe it you’re just not at all bright. So either way, you can feel insulted if you like.
Well, you make your case by leveling insults. That is very reasonable and convincing.
The “insults” haven’t a thing to do with the case I’m making, although they (the, as defined by you, insults), do have something to do with the “case” you’re attempting to make.
@ Anonymous
Please don’t misrepresent my argument–it is very clear and it is not this:
My argument quite plainly above is “don’t believe anything they say because of their history”.
My quite clear argument and in sum: “given their demonstrable history, skepticism of all unproved unverifiable assertions, should always be treated with the utmost skepticism.”
Here are the relevant quotes:
So going to ask you again, politely, please don’t misrepresent my argument.
And to be clear, I fundamentally reject your argument–“that people have to at times ‘trust’ what these intelligence agencies tell us, because they can’t or prohibited from proving their assertions.”
That’s self-serving in all instances, and I reject it. What I don’t reject is that government can claim what it wants to, but unless I can prove or have seen the proof, I accept those government claims for what they are–“unproved assertions”. Nothing more nothing less. I will always afford them the opportunity to provide proof for their assertions, but in the absence of them I will maintain my skepticism and judgment as to the veracity of any and all such claims–as any “reasoning” person should. Because that’s the way “reason” works, and it is in opposition to “faith” or “blind-trust”.
Sheesh, typos.
This is my argument in sum:
And here’s a perfect example of why:
https://theintercept.com/2017/01/10/the-crimes-of-seal-team-6/
And to drive the point home, I want you to do your own research and look at the “wars” America has made all over the globe on a wide variety of human beings, and tell me a) which were actually in defense of America’s borders or territorial integrity, and b) which ultimately turned out to be factually consistent with the stated reasons for those wars, and c) which ones were actually “successful” (and please go ahead and define your understanding of the word “success” as far as serving the “interests” of the American people–not its government, not its industries, and not its political or economic agenda, but the actual American people).
Thanks.
Thank you, rrheard. That is helpful and I appreciate it. I would like to understand more.
“most people that have read the full report agree with the conclusions,”
Who doesn’t agree after reading the report? Those are the people I’m interested in hearing from.
When this story first appeared, it was endorsed by 17 intel agencies. From your comment, I see this has now grown to 19 agencies. However, despite this overwhelming endorsement by the intel agencies the fact that none of them has conducted their own investigation of the DNC e-mail leak reduces their credibility.
The actual investigation of the DNC server was conducted by a private firm, Crowdstrike, which also set up the server and whatever ‘security systems’ it may have had. They therefore had an incentive to blame the security breach on a sophisticated state sponsored hacker, too sophisticated to be thwarted by the imposing security system designed by Crowdstrike.
The DNC, of course, was busy violating election laws and wouldn’t let any government agency anywhere near their server. Government agencies can have moles sympathetic to the Republican Party.
In addition, the plethora of US intelligence agencies creates a competitive environment where no one agency wishes to stand up and say, ‘we are the only agency who had no idea this was going on’. They therefore all agree with the consensus intelligence assessment and hope that one of the other agencies does indeed have data to back it up.
So the number of intelligence agencies who all agree with one another does not, in my opinion, constitute dispositive evidence.
BM.
This is way bigger than just the DNC hack. The accusation is that there is a coordinated and malicious campaign on multiple fronts. Focusing only on the DNC hack comes across as too focused and ignoring the larger issues. As well, it is a tactic that Trump is using currently as a type of victim shaming.
Intelligence agencies collect intelligence. This is equally true of the US, Russia and China.
The NSA has long been warned that in the game of hacking each other’s data, the US has the most data and therefore the most to lose. However, they have ignored those warnings and instead preferred to concentrate on weakening the security of computer systems everywhere in order to facilitate their beloved mass surveillance.
Now they are crying that they are being subjected to ‘victim shaming’. However, the NSA is not really the victim, but rather the bodyguard who stood by and did nothing.
All reason and evidence points to the intel agencies lying, Anonymous.
1) I’m not going to give the full account of intel agency lies, even just over the last decade. It would be quicker if you could just point me to where they told the truth.
2) Provable attribution of the hacking activities to anyone, much less the Russians, is virtually impossible. Anyone claiming otherwise (the 17 Intel agencies, the President, John McCain) is demonstrably LYING.
3) The U.S does this and much worse to almost everyone else, including allies, and also including Russia. Do you expect RT, then, to uncritically report the administarion’s line? Do you think a U.S. intel report, the majority of which is dedicated to things like RT and basic cyber security, not any evidence you keep insisting exists, to conclude the Russians where friends of the Ds? This whole brouhaha has only shown that the Russians had an interest in the outcome of the election, just like everyone else in the world.
4) The timing of the report and the administration’s response makes a “strong circumstantial case” that this is political theater, which is what Obama’s cya policy has devolved to.
Finally, what does it matter anyway? There is no claim from the intel community that votes were changed, so the election results will not change, and if the administration tries something of that nature, the country will erupt into civil war (there were a lot of people that actually voted for Trump, and they are well-armed). Furthermore, Russia is being accused, ultimately, of providing the truth about Hilary Clinton, and if Putin did have a role in that, then he has done the U.S. and the world a great service. That is why I suspect you of having some personal interest in backdoor attempts to prop up a false narrative that only serves to maintain the vanishing unearned credibility of the lame excuse for an executive branch in the U.S. That is the only possible motive I can fathom for believing this IC report, or rather the false media and political claims about what the report says. If you actually read it, you’ll see they use wording that doesn’t actually commit to anything, because they don’t know anything.
Thanks for your reply Macroman. Good points.
I think the disinformation campaign was about more than revealing the “truth” of Hillary Clinton. It was a careful and strategic use of the information to sway public opinion. It worked.
Honestly, I look at the banal stuff that came out of the DNC hack and Podesta emails compared to the hate speech from Trump’s mouth during the campaign and I find it hard to understand how they are even on the same scale of judgement.
Ok, I have made my point. Thank you for the mostly cordial discussion, everyone. I will leave this thread now.
your point now seems to be that there was a disinformation campaign, are you claiming the emails were faked? but then you switch to claiming it was truthful but “strategically used”, before sequeing to “the hate speech from Trump’s mouth”; what do trump’s pronouncements have to do with the credibility of the cia? surely you realize that both could lack credibility, and do.
Anonymous–I’d say the report’s expansion of focus to RT, laughing Russian politicos, etc. is evidence that there’s not much actual evidence of the email/DNC leak/hack that can stand on its own.
If you recall prior to the Iraq War, the casus belli of WMD wasn’t entirely bought by the people, so for a year the admin trotted out a bunch of other stuff like gassing the Kurds, an al qaeda/Mohammed Atta connection, think of the children, etc. Some also proved dubious like Atta, so they put out additional reasons to see what stuck. And/or to make a casus belli by the sum of a large amount of unrelated reasons, since no individual reason was good enough on its own, or had enough actual evidence.
Seems something similar may be happening here. Overwhelming the public with “stuff” of dubious individual value (such as RT, whose articles/slant really has nothing to do with anything and no worse than the BBC, PBS, etc.)
AMEN AND AMEN!
The funny thing to me about the “sources and methods” (S&M) dodge is that the intelligence community makes a cost-benefit analysis regarding how much of a risk to run in exposing S&M. If it is not particularly important to persuade the skeptical, there is no need to run any risk of exposing S&M. To the extent it is important to persuade the skeptical, the risk of exposing S&M by including substantive evidence may be important. Skeptics can scream as much as they like for more evidence (and in this case most definitely should) but an informed judgment has already been made that skeptics can safely be ignored. I’m willing to bet that the intelligence community assessed that one, if that one only, correctly.
@ Robert
That is a well thought out point. I’m quite convinced that both the proof of their assertions doesn’t exist, and that they’ve already made the informed judgment that enough of the American populace could be fed a steam pile of dogshit on national TV if you appealed to their “fear of the other” and fed the perception that you are “keeping them safe from the other”.
That’s how brainwashed Americans are. As a people, we are the most self-deluding, self-mythologizing irrational cowards on the globe.
And as the infamous Dean Wormer noted “Well . . . Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son” and yet tens of millions of Americans choose to anyway. Truly is mystifying some of the crap us naked apes with jobs and hobbies will put up with.
None of this comes as a surprise to anyone familiar with both Epstein’s and Lemann’s much-earlier writings on the JFK assassination. Regardless of where one stands on that incident, Epstein made a cottage industry out of unsubstantiated claims about Lee Oswald and Lemann showed up in the early 1990s to dutifully debunk the resurgence of conspiracy talk following the release of Oliver Stone’s film JFK.
What’s most notable (and, I should say, annoyingly persistent) is that both men — despite writing outright falsehoods, the flimsiest of ‘histories’, and lacking compelling ideas and/or prose style — have seen their careers flourish in the establishment media. That these two are still at it, decades later, patting each other on the back, serving their patrons with lies and misleading readers in ‘respected’ media outlets, is nothing short of sickening.
This really does remind me of the “associated forces” clause in the AUMF legislation.
Purposefully ambiguous as to allow the smearing of anyone supporting, agreeing with or expressing any positive comments about Snowden as a Kremlin agent or sympathizer.
The Democrats must be very proud of their Echo Chamber. They seem to be working overtime in generating the view of Russian spies under everyone’s bed.
As you get older, you begin to realize that imprimaturs are worth jack. This Lemann guy teaches at Columbia, and Dershowitz teaches at Harvard, and Norman Finkelstein is unable to teach. And what did Finkelstein say about Dershowitz? “He is not the problem. It’s the institutions that created, protect and immunize him. They’re the problem.”
The NYT, Columbia, Harvard, whatever. They use the public trust that has been earned over time, by other people, and use it to push their bull. How one puts a stop to that, I don’t know.
Where is nuf said to tell us about how Snowden “vets” reporting at The Intercept that is based on his leaks?
lol.
The word was “directed”. Snowden directed in what way the leaks were to be released, i.e. requiring the information be checked for natsec interests before publishing.
Re: typos, attribution errors.
It is poor form to have typos in your posts about typos.
It is equally poor form to reply to the incorrect person.
I expect better.
The word was “vetted.”
https://theintercept.com/2016/01/28/israeli-drone-feeds-hacked-by-british-and-american-intelligence/?comments=1#comment-196862
Please tell me you don’t mean my most recent correction where you accused me of “inexactness” in a correction where I reference a “Hilary tweet” (where I misspelled Hillary — !!!) in an article with exactly one tweet from HRC (note also that the correction was immediately made, so the intended audience clearly understood.) You are also the worst judge on Earth of “form,” which I’ll demonstrate either tonight or tomorrow (wait for it!).
I blame the intercept, as I hit “reply” to anonymous.
I expect to make tongue-in-cheek-yet-humorless asinine retorts to people you imagine have made a mistake. I read quite a few of your comments today and here is all you ever say:
1) Mona does hasbara.
2) 9/11 was an inside job/Isreali job because math. Vector. Math. Bitches.
3) Anyone who disagrees with me is drunk.
I’ll cover the anti-Jewish bigotry and “Jews created money” mess in my final reply to you later, probably as a stand alone comment. After that, our ongoing conversation is over for good.
My reply to this isn’t posting, but I provide a link to you saying “vetted” again above. Liar.
“My reply to this isn’t posting, ”
Yeah, your dog ate your voodoo-economics homework and you never move the goal-posts.
You have the personality of a damp towel. Your ability to twist in the wind is a function of your tattered, threadbare, knowledge of the English language.
https://theintercept.com/2016/01/28/israeli-drone-feeds-hacked-by-british-and-american-intelligence/?comments=1#comment-196862
You have used those exact words to me twice before. It hasn’t changed my personality of suddenly become funny, fyi.
Your ability to twist in the wind is a function of your tattered, threadbare, [sic] knowledge of the English.
How ironic that you spit such a sorry sentence when trying to deride another’s language capacity.
Thank you, Glenn, for the excellent synopsis. It’s time for Epstein to give it up. How Michael Wolff was granted a regular column in USA Today is beyond me.
I used to love Michael Wolff. I can’t stand him now.
If you are reading this Glenn, I’d like to thank you for keeping my sanity in the midst of so much falsehood, especially from those who -you would think-should know better. I’ve recently became more aware of the power of narratives and how most people, disinclined to question and think critically, prefer to believe in easily digestible narratives as substitutes for truth. Needlessly to say, those in power and in the media concoct all manner of sweet false narratives to lure the masses into believing in things that are not true. I’m just glad that you and the Intercept team have a far greater regard for truth which we need in this contentious political climate.
Quick clarification question: didn’t Snowden vigorously press for the PRISM story in particular? You could argue that doesn’t rise to the “decision” level in terms of publishing but that seems semantic quibbling. Otherwise, excellent piece.
Glenn,
Edit: 8th Paragraph from top
“Though ambiguous about who exactly it is describing, this passages… ” should be “this passage…”
The media are owned by the rich people. The editors and owners are collaborating with the government against anyone, in this case against Snowden. That’s the media business, the rest is nice theory about democracy. What is democratic from feudalism until the present time? Absolutly nothing, banksters became new kings. As long as the profit is more important than humans, capitalism will never be some good system.
For me, Snowden published information about mass spying that show us implementation of a totalitarian system, very often with the excuse of fighting terrorism. Assange and Manning did it further with publishing information about war crimes and so on. Wikileaks and Snowden are important to understand how rulers develop the system. The Intercept also contrubute, but there are not so many investigative journalists in this world, society is still under the influence of corporate/CIA media. Even if Snowden and Wikileaks/Intercept open eyes of the people, it is not a guarantee that people will stand up and fight for a better world. Especially now when the CIA started to make business from the chaos, for example, from the shooting of African-Americans and following protests, they misuse it to militarize the police, to make money. Chaos became business. Only when capitalists bankrupt, spies will not have so much money to corrupt people to work for them, then, society can get revolution. But they will not bankrupt, some of them can bankrupt, but the war machine will stay untouched and they are the biggest problem for the people. We will have to wait for natural distasters to hit the US and stop American billionaires and the CIA. Americans became too soft in last decades to be able to fight with the CIA. Snowden will have to hide the whole life in Russia, Assange in some embassy and Manning will be poisoned by the military spies in the prison, the same as Aaron Schwartz or any other rebel. Even investigative journalism will not sotp the CIA. People still want to enjoy in the present system even if they fight for changes, but they know in such reformist way, nothing will be changed, even militant ways are misused by the CIA to make profit. Punk was absorbed by capitaists, now insurrection is absorbed too. Reformists never changed anything, but they have high degrees and salaries, nothing bad for them if nothing is changed (Chomsky is the best example). The CIA/FBI killed black panthers and malcolm x, not chomsky.
Over and over I find reason to take issue with people I see on pundit shows, people I see on twitter (especially your twitter timeline), people I see authoring articles such as the one you’re exposing falsehoods from today from this book review, because, as you said, “anyone who has even casually followed” should damned well know better than to be saying or publishing or tweeting the lies or falsehoods that they are repeating or making up or, more bothersome to me, “asking” you about.
If the offending questioner or misinformed or dishonest person is on twitter, where I have the opportunity to personally call them out, I usually ask them why they didn’t bother to do the most minimal research it would have taken them to find the answer to the long and repeatedly answered question themselves before asking it yet again. I suppose it’s a combination of laziness, and in many cases just being dishonest and hoping to propagate the misinformation that motivates some of those questioners to ask the same answered questions, even though they have been asked and answered again and again. But, as you’ve hammered home in this article, what the hell could be the excuse for the author of this book report, and everyone at the New York Times who let these falsehoods pass in this widely disseminated publication of a book review of a book that is itself filled with falsehoods and lies?