Demonized as pro-Putin propaganda, claims about the fascist and even neo-Nazi thugs leading the fight for the Kiev government are actually true.
It’s easy to forget that just two years ago, President Obama was determined to bomb Syria and remove the Assad regime, and U.S. establishment institutions were working to lay the groundwork for that campaign. NPR began dutifully publishing reports from anonymous U.S. officials that Syria had stockpiled large amounts of chemical weapons; the NYT was reporting that Obama was “increasing aid to the rebels and redoubling efforts to rally a coalition of like-minded countries to forcibly bring down” Assad; Secretary of State John Kerry pronounced that forced removal of Assad was “a matter of national security” and “a matter of the credibility of the United States of America.”
Those opposed to the anti-Assad “regime change” bombing campaign argued that while some of the rebellion was composed of ordinary Syrians, the “rebels” the U.S. would arm and empower (i.e., the only effective anti-Assad fighters) were actually violent extremists and even terrorists aligned with Al Qaeda and worse. The people arguing that were invariably smeared as Assad apologists because this happened to be the same argument Assad was making: that the most effective fighters against him were jihadis and terrorists.
But that argument in D.C. was quickly converted from taboo into conventional wisdom the moment it was needed to justify U.S. involvement in Syria. The U.S. is now bombing Syria, of course, but rather than fighting against Assad, the Syrian dictator is (once again) America’s ally and partner. The rationale for the U.S. bombing campaign is the same one Assad long invoked: that those fighting against him are worse than he is because they are aligned with Al Qeada and ISIS (even though the U.S. funded and armed those factions for years and their closest allies in the region continue to do so).
A similar dynamic is at play in Russia and Ukraine. Yesterday, Obama’s top national security official, Director of National Intelligence James Clapper, told a Senate Committee “that he supports arming Ukrainian forces against Russian-backed separatists,” as the Washington Post put it. The U.S. has already provided “non-lethal” aid to Ukrainian forces, and Obama has said he is now considering arming them. Who, exactly, would that empower?
Russian President Vladimir Putin has long said that the Ukrainian coup of last year, and the subsequent regime in Kiev, is driven by ultra-nationalists, fascists, and even neo-Nazi factions. The Russian TV outlet RT also frequently refers to “the active role far-right groups have played on the pro-government side in Ukraine since the violent coup of the last year.”
For that reason, anyone pointing out that arming the regime in Kiev would strengthen fascists and neo-Nazis is instantly accused of being a Putin propagandist: exactly like those arguing that the best anti-Assad fighters were al-Qaeda-affiliated were accused of being Assad propagandists (until that became the official position of the US Government). U.S. media accounts invariably depict the conflict in Ukraine as a noble struggle waged by the freedom-loving, pro-west democrats in Kiev against the oppressive, aggressive “Russian-backed” separatists in the east.
But just as was true in Syria: while some involved in the Ukrainian coup were ordinary Ukrainians fighting against a corrupt and oppressive regime, these claims about the fascist thugs leading the fight for the Kiev government are actually true. Writing in Foreign Policy from eastern Ukraine last August, Alec Luhn observed:
Pro-Russian forces have said they are fighting against Ukrainian nationalists and “fascists” in the conflict, and in the case of Azov and other battalions, these claims are essentially true. . . . The Azov Battalion, whose emblem also includes the “Black Sun” occult symbol used by the Nazi SS, was founded by Andriy Biletsky, head of the neo-Nazi groups Social-National Assembly and Patriots of Ukraine.
In September, Shaun Walker wrote in the Guardian about his experience embedding with the pro-Kiev forces of the Azov, which he called “Ukraine’s most potent and reliable force on the battlefield against the separatists.” While dismissing as “overblown” Russian warnings that these groups seek to ethnically cleanse all of Ukraine, Walked described “the far right, even neo-Nazi, leanings of many of its members,” and noted that “Amnesty International called on the Ukrainian government to investigate rights abuses and possible executions by the Aidar, another battalion.” Walker’s principal concern was that these fascist militias intend, once the separatists are vanquished, to seek control of Kiev and impose their ultra-nationalist vision on the entire country.
Ever since the coup in Kiev was carried out, these unpleasant facts about the pro-government forces have been largely ignored in most establishment U.S. media accounts, leaving a handful of commentators to point them out. In January of last year, as the coup was unfolding, the Guardian‘s Seumas Milne argued that the west’s morality narrative about Ukraine – democracy-fighters v. Putin oppressors – “bears only the sketchiest relationship to reality” and that, instead, “far-right nationalists and fascists have been at the heart of the protests and attacks on government buildings.” Britain’s Channel 4 reported on the central role played by far-right ultra-nationalists in that coup, noting that Sen. John McCain traveled to the Ukrainian capital (pictured, above) and shared a stage with the worst fascist elements. Antiwar.com’s Justin Raimondo has long been warning of “the ascension of a genuinely fascist mass movement into the corridors of power” in Kiev, noting that far from being a handful of fringe elements, “the activists of the two main fascist parties in Ukraine – Svoboda and ‘Right Sector’ – provided the muscle the insurrectionists needed to take over government buildings in Kiev and across western Ukraine.”
These facts have now become so glaring that even the most mainstream organizations in the west are now being compelled to point them out. Last week, Vox published an article by Amanda Taub about the “approximately 30 of these private armies fighting on the Ukrainian side,” whose “fighters are accused of serious human rights violations, including kidnappings, torture, and extrajudicial executions.” While claiming the militias operate largely separately from the central Kiev government, Taub nonetheless notes how central they have become to the fight against the separatists, and also acknowledges their clear use by Kiev officials:
The militias have also gained more power because the Ukrainian government, led by new President Petro Poroshenko, brought them friends in high places. For instance, Arsen Avakov, Poroshenko’s Minister of Internal Affairs, was previously the leader of former Prime Minister Yulia Timoshenko’s political bloc in eastern Ukraine. He has a longstanding alliance with members of the Azov Battalion, a far-right organization whose members have a history of promoting anti-Semitism and neo-Nazi views. Avakov has has used his position to support the group, going so far as to appoint Vadim Troyan, an Azov deputy leader, as the chief of police for the whole Kiev region. And Azov’s leader, Andriy Biletsky, is now a member of parliament as well.
The Intercept yesterday published reporting from Marcin Mamon on the role jihadists are playing in the conflict on behalf of the government.
U.S. media propaganda has not only sought to glorify the Kiev regime by suppressing all of these elements but also has actively demonized the separatists as little more than Putin-controlled pawns. In fact, as BuzzFeed’s Max Seddon describes in an excellent article from a separatist stronghold in eastern Ukraine, those fighting against Kiev have a range of significant grievances against the Ukrainian government quite independent of any Putin agenda, including violence against civilians and long-standing contempt for residents of the east:
In the very areas Ukraine is fighting to regain, near-constant artillery bombardment and a crippling economic blockade have hardened attitudes to the point of no return. Almost every day, shelling claims the lives of civilians: someone’s mother, husband, child. And every day, reconciliation between millions of Ukrainian citizens here and the Ukrainian government seems even further off.
Whatever else is true, this is yet another case of the U.S. government – followed as always by its media – fabricating a Manichean morality narrative to justify U.S. involvement and militarism. Just as the U.S. spent years funding and arming the precise extremist elements it claims it wants to combat – in Libya, in Syria, and long before that in Afghanistan – arming Ukrainian forces would empower a monstrous crew of fascists and outright Nazi sympathizers. The coup itself, which the U.S. government supported, almost certainly did exactly that.
One can debate whether empowering such thugs is a feature or a bug: it’s hardly rare for the U.S. knowingly to arm and prop up fascists and other assorted tyrants which it believes will promote its interests (see this morning’s David Ignatius column arguing that Egyptian dictator Gen. Abdel Fata Sisi is as bad as Mubarak when it comes human rights abuses, but the U.S. must continue steadfastly to support him so that he preserves “stability”). But at least when the U.S. is in bed with regimes such as the Saudis or Egyptians, most people understand the kind of allies it has embraced. In the case of Ukraine, those facts have been almost entirely excluded from mainstream discourse. Now that Obama’s leading national security official is expressly calling for the arming of those forces, it is vital that the true nature of America’s allies in this conflict be understood.
Photo: Sergei Chuzavkov/AP
So comments are appearing from a week ago that didn’t exist while I was commenting in the mm article…. others disappeared or were altered… and this article was apparently published the day after and never showed but has something like 150+ comments… Someone somewhere is f*cking with this site, either on your end or mine. And I am not losing my mind nor am I one of those people who spew about electromagnetic fields being used against me by the government or whatever. I am not in the US nor in a censoring country so I am sort of baffled as to what is going on here. Does this happen for other people? Because I certainly would have appreciated this article a week ago. And it is not site caching on my end either.
Bueller?
Perhaps related, certainly a problem: Why does the site (at least from my end) also not show articles in chronological order on both the mobile and desktop sites? There is no incentive really for multiple page clickthrus and I figured it was a bug but after above mentioned strangeness, I feel compelled to bring it up in case it is also somehow “just me”. Peculiar, all of it.
Sorry, should have mentioned that the commenting thing wasn’t a moderation issue either, unless people can have conversations with other people (or change the comments) prior to them showing up at all. You know, in case anyone were going to reply and ask instead of assuming I am a nutter (arbitrary username aside, and no pun intended).
“One can debate whether empowering such thugs is a feature or a bug”
I would say it’s a feature – keeping areas we are interested in destabilized makes them easier to control and it also ensures there are always villains present to use as justification for any future military operations.
The US continues to do the same thing over and over expecting a different outcome. First we armed the Mujahideen to fight the Russians, which led to Al Qaeda and eventually ISIS using our weapons. Unlike Russia, the US has given itself permission to use drone attacks without worrying about soverign countries borders, we just don’t have to respect them. Now that we have some time and are only putting a few boots on the ground we can turn our sights on Ukraine. As early as the first week of December both Victoria Nuland and John McCain were having their pictures taken with Oleh Tyahnybok whose claim to fame was being a member of Svoboda and he went to Germany for the trial of a deported Nazi Concentration Camp guard who had been deported from the US. Tyahnybok announced to all that death camp guards were “heroes”. He now is in Porochenco’s government.Then there is Andriye Parubiy who is a member of the Ukrainian Defense and Security Council. He oversees the Ukrainian Defense Department. He also co-founded Svoboda, after being a member of the ultra-nationalist party. I am sure Nuland as well as members of the DOD will have dealings with him. Finally, there is Dmitry Yarosh who is involved in the paramilitary groups as well as helped to set up the National Guard units. He is wanted by Interpol for inciting terrorist acts. He is a member of theRight Sector So once more the US will be arming dubious entities, which may in the end turn out to be a problem for Europe. On Yarosh Facebook page he says he does not recognize the Minsk agreement and vows to continue fighting the separatists. His group was also involved in the burning to death of the 44 separatists in Odessa. Nuland’s and Obama’s plans for Ukraine before the coup and placing “Yatsy” ( named in her conversation with Ambassador Pyatt, when she chose who would and would not be in the government) as Prime minister didn’t turn out well when the Southeastern Ukrainians decided to fight for their homes, their human dignity and self-determination. So now the US will gI’ve itself permission to continue to interfere in what has become a Civil war. Unfortunately the US arms are used against civilian populations as in Gaza, and the destruction in Southeastern Ukraine has the same footprint. I suppose being the Arms Dealer to the World, now has a better ring than Commander of the Drones, now that any ten year old can get a small one in the US. Iran is still on the to-do list, as Obama considers his legacy. The US has come full circle to try to destroy Russia and it’s people. From the Mujahideen to the Right Sector and Svoboda, what strange bedfellows we have.
My biggest question is if this indeed true, Why are the US lackeys trying to withhold this info from us? Why are they then villainizing Russia? What is USA’s endgame with Ukraine? Is this a power play by USA to obtain Ukraine’s resources and rob Ukraine of it’s monies through corporate take-overs and Russian Oligarchs through sanctions? I’m beyond elated that you have weighed in on this topic. Glenn and the intercept are my most trusted news source, you’ve just re-affirmed everything I already knew or believed about this conflict.
Shaun Walker’s article makes Azov almost heroic LADS.
Glenn, I can’t understand why you cited MSM news outlets like FP, Guardian and Vox. They are, in the least, biased western propaganda, and possibly something even worse. Citing them hurts your case. They may seem to be agreeing with you; but knowing how the CIA and NSA operate, they are probably undermining you on some level you don’t understand. During your research process, the very act of reading them could have lasting psychological effects. Don’t underestimate all the reports of CIA psyops on the american population. It is better to not even go to those sites. At least you balanced those suspicious sources with more reasonable sources such as RT, a Putin speech and antiwar.com. I always suspected that Kiev was infested with Nazi’s. Now I can be sure.
“I can’t understand why you cited MSM news outlets like FP, Guardian and Vox.” – robo_giles
It’s called not killing the messenger and/or not giving in to confirmation bias. If what’s cited is incorrect, then make the case for that; because too many simply disregard ever listening to other sources or voices due to the mindset you are advocating.
“I have yet to see a piece of writing, political or non-political, that does not have a slant. All writing slants the way a writer leans, and no man is born perpendicular.” – E.B. White
There’s recent news from Canada that adds to the notion that Kiev is a grotesque and fanatical regime. Apparently the deputy foreign minister of Ukraine was on a mission to ask Canada for more weapons and funds. In an interview with Canadian media he stated that the West ought to be prepared to wage a direct war against Russia on Russian territory. He recommended that the West grows a backbone and realize that a war with Russia is inevitable and support a Ukrainian invasion of Russia.
I don’t see any reason to consider this a false report, since it was published by mainstream Canadian media. So it just goes to show what kind of political forces are operating in Ukraine. This includes: the neo-Nazi elements that Glenn writes about, the Ukraine’s foreign ministry which apparently desires war and so god only knows to what extent Ukraine’s military surpasses its diplomatic corp’s rabid views.
I think the instability in Ukraine has opened up a whole pandora’s box of forces that are unique to Ukraine and that are being supported by the West. Hopefully this latest cease-fire holds and there is a political settlement to maintain peace. Since the West is responsible for most of this mess it ought to be doing the most to maintaining the cease-fire.
How is Ukraine antisemitic when The Speaker of it’s house “Groysman”(third most powerful politician in Ukraine) is a Ukrainian Jew and even ambassadors for Ukraine like ” Reznick” is a Ukrainian Jew? Even the Chief Rabbi in Kiev “Azman” states that Ukraine is not antisemitic. I am sorry your Russian propaganda doesn’t sway me in the least. Facts are facts “Russia invaded Ukraine” and Czar LiliPutin can afford to hire your paper to distort facts.
I would call this article fair and balanced, if Fox News hadn’t already trashed the phrase.
It’s like Terry Bellefleur from True Blood said: “I can’t listen to politicians no more. I get a seizure.”
So true, Glenn Greenwald! If you and others here haven’t yet read John Pilger’s latest excellent piece, please do so for a even larger understanding of the evil forces that the U.S. government and its allies, including NATO, “al CIAduh(!)”, etc., have long been in bed with, and are in bed with now. It’s long historical potpourri of (except in this case of the most vile scent, rather than fragrant) the most evil doers known to mankind, many of them literal, Nazi-loving fascists.
http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/277-75/28834-why-the-rise-of-fascism-is-again-the-issue
Pilger doesn’t bring it out there, but in Argentina when the U.S. backed their fascist regime, many of its leaders often literally dressed up in Nazi Gestapo uniforms and swore fealty to Hitler and to fascism. This is the kind of huge, monstrous evil that the U.S. government has long backed; so their support for the Ukrainian fascists is hardly surprising. The Argentinian regime also disappeared, tortured and murdered many True Freedom Fighters from 1972 to 1988, as the Ukrainian fascists are doing today. And the American people and the rest of the West, as well as much of the world, was also falsely-propagandized and prevented from knowing the real truth about Argentina in those days, just as they are being falsely-propagandized about Ukraine and its fascists the now control its government in Kiev, supported by the U.S. and Western governments and their allies.
Again, this is the kind of hellish, colossal mass-murderous stench that the U.S. and global government have long poured out.
I added the following to the last paragraph of my previous comment:
Again, this is the kind of hellish, colossal mass-murderous stench that the U.S. and global government have long poured out; but it’s now being brought to a head, the globalist endgame, the final subjugation of the U.S. and the West, and the last steps in bringing about global government and its enslavement under the “New World Order (NWO)” ‘Fourth Reich’.
” Crimea has been nothing but Russian for hundreds of years. It was arbitrarily “given” to the Ukraine SSR in 1954. ” Tango on the Moon
“California has been nothing but Mexican for hundreds of years. It was arbitrarily taken by the Americans in 19th century”
“Israel has been nothing but Jewish for hundreds of years. It was arbitrarily taken by the Romans in 63 BCE”. Alpha brown
“That’s not so. Before Rome, Palestine was ruled by Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Ptolemies and Seleucids. Before these, it was Solomon.” Mona
Okay, so let’s go as far as possible in history
“Israel has been nothing but Jewish for hundreds of years. It was forcibly taken by the Assyrians around 720 BCE”.
Or maybe you disagree with Tango on the Moon that history should be the only basis upon which an ethnic group should design the border of their country. Because if it is the case as he or she suggests to support Russia invasion, occupation and annexation of Crimea, then Israel is right to invade and occupy the land claimed by the Palestinians. Or maybe that argument is acceptable for the Crimean crisis, but unacceptable for the crisis in the Middle East. Or it is acceptable for the Crimean crisis, but it would be unacceptable for Mexico to claim California. I am just attempting to decipher why it is so hard for the supporters of the Great Leader to admit that Russia’s activities in Ukraine is purely illegal and they have to be blamed for the empowerment of extremists in Ukraine. But again, if the Great Leader blames the West or specifically the US for the typhoon in Japan, then he must be right.
Alpha, in your brief time here you’ve made many errors of fact — as has been pointed out to you. Your argumetns are as sound as your fact claims. You are simply wrong about Israel. To repeat: “Before Rome, Palestine was ruled by Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Ptolemies and Seleucids. Before these, it was Solomon.”
Wrong? Really? It is not a matter of FACT that the Hasmonean dynasty was Jewish? Anyway, I am not presenting an argument, I am discussing an argument presented by Tango on the Moon: since Crimea was Russian for years and taken “arbitrarily” in 1954 so it is acceptable for Russia to invade, occupy, and annex it. That logic based exclusively on history should also be applied for California, for Israel and even for Kuwait. Why not?
History means 100 years, 10000 years, 4000000 years…you pick how far you want to stop, but the logic stays the same. Nevertheless, I do understand your inability to state that the Russian invasion was illegal and has empowered the extremists in Ukraine. That would place you against your Great Leader who believes the West and the US is solely responsible for the empowerment of these groups. As we all know, it is completely unacceptable to challenge the Great Leader who is always right.
No, Alpha dude. There was no “Israel” that colonized Palestine. It was a bunch of (mostly)Western European Jews who were part of a colonial project known as Zionism. Their purpose was twofold: 1. To take over Palestine from the people already living their, largely kick them out and take their land and cities, and 2. to establish a European outpost in the Middle east. This stolen, colonized land was then named “Israel.”
A colonial West assisted Zionists in this project and “gave” the Zionists Palestinian land the West did not own as part of a Western colonial project. Israel came to exist as a direct result of Western colonialism.
Those “mostly Western European Jews” were they the descendants of the Jews who run away from Israel thousands of years ago? Refugees of multiple wars, economic turmoils etc…who spread their religion, culture and traditions all over the world? Or maybe they were just a bunch of people pretending to follow the ancient religion and culture so they could be massacred by Arab mobs, expelled by Europeans, or massacred by crusaders, and Nazis.
You can stop history whenever you wish to support your position. You stop in 1948 for Palestinians, but the Jews pick years BCE to support their position. How far are you willing to go for California or Arizona? Would it be legal for Mexico to send troops in those states and claim them because they were forcibly taken from them? Would you call it “colonization”? Or would it be legal for Native Americans to take arms against the Federal Government to take control of Arizona that was taken from them? Who was in Crimea before the Russians?
The logic presented is the same regardless of how you attempt to evade it: History becomes the unique basis used to draw borders. Then, who decides when to stop in history? The Russians may pick the 18th century, but I doubt the Crimean Tatars would stop so early. When that logic is used, then the result is political turmoil, civil wars, and in the case of Ukraine rise of extremism. A fact that your Great Leader willingly ignored because his priority is not the truth, but the bashing of the US.
Partly. The continuity in culture is there but the evolution of this culture was more than just significant. As for the genetics, well, people do what people do; so if you are talking about that kind of descendent, it is all mixed up.
At common law, multiple doctrines preclude recovering damages or other relief when too much time has passed; it’s a matter of justice. It’s preposterous to think a common law court would rule that European/Europeanized Jews should be permitted to colonize and steal the land of others who were living in Palestine presently, and whose forebears also had been there back into the mists of time.
No, I do not.
The Zionist colonization of Palestine began in the second half of the 19th century; almost immediately the Zionists began mistreating the people — Arabs — already living there. The Zionists poured outside resources and money into taking over businesses and land, aka colonization. This was all well into effect prior to 1948.
Moreover, the criminal and genocidal destruction of the Palestinians continues to this day. Consider the carnage Zionists inflicted on the open air prison of Gaza last summer, or the continuing land theft of West bank settlements.
“At common law, multiple doctrines preclude recovering damages or other relief when too much time has passed; it’s a matter of justice.” Mona
Is that what you would tell the Native Americans if they take arms against the Federal government to claim Arizona back because it was taken from them? Or is that what you intend to tell the Russians as they invaded and occupied Crimea? Or maybe your common law argument is only valid against Jews, but you would not use it against the Russians?
You may stop history whenever you want, that is your choice. It is quite interesting that you refuse the argument of using ONLY history to draw borders when it comes to Israel, but you cannot reject it when it comes to Russia invading and occupying Crimea empowering extremists in Ukraine. He is really your Great Leader!!
What is International Law and who enforces it? The Crimeans have had many referendums and obiously wish to leave Ukraine. Wish them good luck re-joining Russia, it was done so politely. Lets look forward and give them our best wishes. Perhaps they could offer Ukraine 10% of Crimean gas revenue (same as the Palestinian deal I think, with which they are allowed purchase Israeli goods. Although I doubt that Ukrainians would want to buy Israeli goods with all their gift).
If Russia indeed countermanded popular will in Crimea, then where is the Crimean terrorism? Isn’t that how it has worked in so many other places, Iraq, Afghanistan, now Ukraine — when invaders come, able bodied men resist. Where is the Crimean resistance? Or perhaps the public square photos after the referendum were accurate, with joyous crowds and fireworks.
Simple people in Crimea have been reduced to fighting for bananas in grocery stores. Rather than ask where are Crimean resistance is, ask why “real” Russians are now trying to flee Donbass, rather than be forcibly inducted into some kind of eastern Ukrainian “army” of sorts.
Black Friday in AmeriKa is so much worse.
LOL bananas
You are mixing things up, man. It is Ukrainians who flee Ukraine to escape a forced conscription. There are articles in official Ukrainian media condemning Russia for bending it’s laws a bit too make such escape easier. And there is no forced conscription in the eastern Ukraine. Propaganda to join, yes, but “conscription or prison” shit belongs solely to Kiev.
Video- This changes everything. Top Government official admits that the USA is responsible for regime change in the Ukraine
http://www.thefinalhour.ca/the-final-word/top-government/index.html
Clapper should be in prison.
even if they were not fascists all this makes no sense. they fight for territorial integrity of Ukraine. its crazy. they are not government forces. different people seek different interests there and their interests are no good and it’s a mess. to hear Russian news and news from the West – different kind of lies and propaganda – its so disgusting. what is true politics here – people die for no reason and it must stop. UN should be real organization with power, not in its present state and must handle situations like that. UN should not be based in New York but in some place like Congo or Gaza – with power to stop all wars. why not dream about that. there is nothing fantastic about that. its possible.
Is it appropriate for the director of national intelligence to lobby for a certain foreign policy? I didn’t think that was in the job description.
Over three years ago Hillary and Flynt Mann Leverett (Going to Tehran) highly recommended that the U.S. etc take the power sharing deal that Assad was offering. Hundreds of thousands of Syrian lives later the killing continues in mass. Not knowing who the U.S. is really supporting. Sure seems U.S. actions in Iraq, Libya, Syria now possibly Ukraine pave the way for Al Qeada and IS. With hundreds of thousands of dead, injured and millions displaced. As if U.S. is rolling out the pavement for them. Makes you wonder if that was somehow the PNAC’s plan. Quagmire yet?
Another good source of information on what’s really happening in Ukraine is Patrick L. Smith in Salon. His columns have consistently pointed out the truth and implicated the media, especially the New York Times, in this continuing farce.
What does it take to be able to post on this site? I’ve submitted a post many hours ago and don’t see it still. I submitted once to another article a month or two ago and never saw it there either.
Something calling itself CraigSummers had requested some information down thread a couple few times.
It’s right here
Because I have been following The Intercept comment board since its inception, I can safely state that the “something” to which you refer is analogous to a plague upon the board.
The moniker is most definitely a troll and most generally adopts the prevailing government propaganda (lies) as truth and spits out talking point arguments freely in the sputum which DocHollywood aptly refers to as “drool.” I must admit that DocHollywood’s re-characterized comments are thoroughly delightful both in entertainment value and in promotion of the truth. Yet…the “thing” continues to persist with its dying reptilian gasps as though it enjoys a slow torturous death.
In an effort to expedite this demise, I would like to submit as evidence the claim that the “thing” has consistently used thirteen (13) of the Troll disruption methods cited in the following article since the inception of The Intercept in an effort to discredit Mr. Greenwald and promote elitist government propaganda.
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2015/02/trolls-guide-internet-disruption.html
The only items in question are numbers 7 & 8 and that only because it is not self-evident by simply reading it’s comments.
As in most cases….the “thing speaks for itself.”
Unfortunately I can’t stop it from commenting but I can choose to ignore it….even when it flies off it’s Draconian perch to refute one of my comments; to which it will be diametrically opposed as it’s nature is to control absolutely through fear and mine is toward freedom from the bondage of that control. To entities like this I say: “Go away now. Your control over humanity on Earth ended. You are representative of a dying breed and will soon suffer the consequences for your millenniums of crimes against humanity and the Planet. The masses no longer fear you because you are quite obviously out-numbered and we will fight you to mortal death.”
Lyra, thanks for the link to the WaPo troll manual. Certainly all of those techniques are used in Glenn’s comment space. With Craig, tho, I get the sense he doesn’t think of himself as a troll, but rather he imagines he is actually offering substantive rebuttal to Glenn and various of us. Conceding, however, that his comments are suffused with multiple of the ploys identified in that article.
Lyra,
I do not think so. He writes much with little relation to reality, and thus you can find some correlation with “troll speak”, but I see little evidence that he is a classic troll. Trolls destroy communication; I do not think he is even trying to be disruptive, and he certainly is not succeeding. Has he ever actually stopped a conversation? (Other than just inducing a temporary stunned silence, that is.)
Craig Summers is too left wing for my taste, but he means well. I try to convince him the US should act in its own self interest, rather than prioritizing the needs of others. Unfortunately, his mind seems to be made up. But while he may be irredeemable, I see no problem with him expressing his point of view, regardless of how misguided it may be. While I would fully support banning anyone whose comments were insincere, it would clearly be wrong to label someone as a troll for posting comments which reflect their deeply held political beliefs.
Are you suggesting that it’s safe to read him now?
Careful. Such self-referential comments, if revealing just a bit of ambivalence, can induce infinite positive feedback loops, potentially destroying the fabric of the universe.
As points of clarification:
@ -Mona-: Washington’s Blog and the Washington Post are different publications. I never read the Washington Post unless an article in the publication is cited as a specific link. See: http://www.washingtonsblog.com/overview-for-new-readers.
@ Mike Sulzer: Trolls do attempt to destroy communication when such communication runs contrary to their spiritual, mental, or political ideology. In this case, the effort has met with overwhelming failure due to his propensity to promote government lies which could, indeed be perceived as an obvious break with reality.
@ Benito Mussolini: I have no political “wing” and don’t get involved in that game. Organized religions and Central Bankers are the masters of the party puppets, Wall Street, and corporate entities. I did not mention banning anyone from making comments on TI although I disagree with you regarding the professed level of sincerity which I think is probably nonexistent. It is my intention to continue to ignore his comments even when addressed specifically to me.
I admire and respect all of you for your verbal empathy as bestowed upon that most unfortunate incarnation, whatever gender or form it might reside within.
Here is the Craigsummers view of Glenn. It has a familiar ring; a blast from the Salon past, if you will.
Oh, while I think of it, isn’t the US solution to pretty well any problem ‘bring in more guns’?
To get a proper perspective of the Ukrainian crisis, after reading a review in the Guardian on Richard Sakwa’s Ukraine Frontline. Crisis in Borderline, which curiously enough seems like an expanded version of Glenn’s ‘musings’ here. Reason why I consider Sakwa’s account the best I have read so far is that he gives the proper background and reasons for the events objectively. Western, and in particular US politicians see Putin as a threat to US hegemony, and use all and any means to blacken him and Russia. The fact that the US is the main instigator of most of the world’s present misery seems to be of little concern to many. ‘The Americans mean well’! Tell people in El Salvador, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Iraq, Afghanistan and especially Vietnam that!
For those here trying to make sense of a “Russian aggression” term please remember that the United States is “defending freedom”.
Also, remember that the USSR invaded not only Germany, but also Ukraine. To say nothing of all those countries in between.
Per prime minister of Ukraine himself, the bright Arseniy Yatsenyuk:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-i–EAfBPw
http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukraine-premiers-pro-nazi-version-of-world-war-ii-ussr-invaded-ukraine-germany/5425571
And the Poles are not that far behind:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sponsored/rbth/opinion/11372353/russia-snubbed-auschwitz-commemoration.html
Latvia has an annual SS veterans parade:
http://forward.com/articles/194652/latvian-nazi-ss-veterans-march-in-annual-riga-para/
Etc.
To sum up:
finish the job driving out those who start things (Hitler, Napoleon, Saakashvili, etc) — aggress
start wars all over the world — defend
Clear now?
1/ A few questions :
a/ To which degree is the comparison between Ukraine and Syria relevant, since the bloody opposition between Assad and his opponents doesn’t seem to have any equivalent in Ukraine, where Western oligarchs and fascists (the latter being the likely beneficiaries of US arms supplies) seem to go hand in hand ? If the US empowered fascists in Kiev as it did ISIL a few thousands of miles south-east (with its local allies’ strong support), did “the Land of the Free” not do so to get rid of the former, Russia-backed, president ? Which US interests would be served by removing Poroshenko, who’s the West’s freshly appointed vassal, or creating a new frontline in Kiev ? Does the US need Ukraine’s fascists to keep Kiev subservient ?
b/ Is the Ukrainian far right still lurking inside the corridors of power, as was the case one year ago, when several of their most prominent figures were holding ministerial posts (cf. the Raimondo article) ? What was the outcome of the latest parliamentary elections ? Are the neo-nazis more of an ally or a burden to Kiev’s central power ?
c/ At the beginning of the conflict, Brennan made at least one surprise-visit to Kiev, and some claimed the Ukrainian security forces were receiving their orders directly from Langley. Which role is the CIA playing on the ground these days ?
d/ In how far is Clapper’s posturing indicative of a ‘good cop / bad cop’ strategy (McCain has been barking for heavy weaponry supplies to Ukraine for a year, while Obama seems to have been buying time on this issue.), and, if that is indeed the strategy being played, in how far is the new balance of power in the US, after the latest congressional elections, influencing it ?
e/ Do these hypothetical weapons supplies revolve around a transatlantic hiatus regarding NATO membership for Ukraine ?
f/ What exactly are “US interests” in the region ? Are they limited to what US predatory multinationals (including Biden’s older son’s firm) might steal from the country, as they do everywhere else ? Or is there more to it ?
g/ Some circles in the US have come to view WW III as (economically) inevitable, though they won’t say it out loud. To them, it is imperative Europe once again be the major theatre of hostilities. After the Snowden revelations, some European leaders had the nerve to speak up against the NSA’s global surveillance apparatus. They even threw this in the balance during the transatlantic negociation process. In how far does the threat of an escalation of the Ukrainian conflict serve US economic purposes at an EU-level ? Even if there’s no global war in sight, in how far can such a threat contribute to unify a divided EU for the US’s benefit ? In how far does this help the US tame Germany, and remind potentially rebellious European countries theirs is a ‘servant’ status ? In how far does it help the US shove TTIP, TISA and the like down the most reluctant EU countries’ throats ?
“France doesn’t know it, but we are at war with America. Yes, a permanent war, a vital war, an economic war, a war without any apparent casualty. Americans are very tough. they’re voracious, they want absolute worldwide power. It’s an unknown war, a permanent war, a war without any apparent casualty, yet a war to the death.”
François Mitterrand, President of the French Republic, 1981 – 1995
__________
2/ Please check spelling :
– “exactly like those arguing that the best anti-Assad fighters were al-Qaeda-affiliated were accused of being Assad propagandists”
– “Walked described “the far right, even neo-Nazi, leanings of many of its members,” ”
– “Avakov has has used his position to support the group”
– “Egyptian dictator Gen. Abdel Fata Sisi is as bad as Mubarak when it comes human rights abuses”
Terrific comments. And a very apt Mitterrand quote.
Digesting and waiting to see if my question about comments and the strange nonappearance of this article get a response before I shell out a good 30 minutes responding in depth.
” Crimea has been nothing but Russian for hundreds of years. It was arbitrarily “given” to the Ukraine SSR in 1954. ” Tango on the Moon
“California has been nothing but Mexican for hundreds of years. It was arbitrarily taken by the Americans in 19th century”
Let’s the answer to this one:
“Israel has been nothing but Jewish for hundreds of years. It was arbitrarily taken by the Romans in 63 BCE”
That’s not so. Before Rome, Palestine was ruled by Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Ptolemies and Seleucids. Before these, it was Solomon.
The post, lightly edited.
For Mona.
“Mr. Greenwald
Because I have neither understanding nor concern for legal issues, human rights and the murders of innocents, I feign alarm over attacks on Jews one day and cheer the arming of neo-Nazis the next. Antisemitism is a problem in Russia. (Racism is a problem wherever we find it. Even when we find it in Ferguson, Missouri.) Antisemitism is a problem in Ukraine. I want America to send weapons to Ukraine that will end-up in the hands of neo-Nazis. By now my contradictions should surprise no one.
So while I condemn Russian military aggression, I certainly don’t care about the ILLEGALITY (drool sometimes makes my caps-key stick) of American military aggression. In Iraq. Or Yemen. Or Afghanistan. Or Pakistan. Or Haiti. Or South Vietnam. Or Somalia. Or anywhere. While the US illegally drones innocent victims, I show my psychopathic lack of concern with my placement of quotation marks. The victims of America’s illegal wars mean nothing to me. Their deaths don’t bother me, not because I have a political agenda, but because I’m just a chump who regurgitates obvious propaganda without really understanding it. I have laid bare my irrationality with this post. It has nothing to do with the murder of innocent people, human rights, civil liberties, or innocent victims; I am driven by ignorance, fear, and jingoism – American elite war-mongers have an agenda, so I swallow their falsehoods without question and call it ‘patriotism’.
For example, I’m aware that 5000 people have been killed in Ukraine and have been told that tens of thousands have fled – the actual number is close to 1 million – but what I ignore/don’t know/don’t care is that most of them have fled to Russia. It doesn’t make sense that refugees would flee towards the aggressors for protection and not away from them. But I don’t question the contradictions I’m fed; I want too much to believe them. I could never ask myself, ‘If the Russians are the aggressors, why have most refugees fled to them for protection and away from the Kiev government?’ That doesn’t make sense. So I don’t think about it. I don’t question what I am told. I just keep repeating the falsehoods. And I have a name for those who won’t: ‘anti-American’.
My posts look like sick jokes, Mr Greenwald. They’re not.”
Thanks for that anti-anti-Americanism antidote, Doc. It’s certainly what this patient ordered. One wonders if this many “anti’s” is enough “anti’s” for this ailment. Likely not. Lather, rinse, and repeat, then.
“When you have the means and information to cure a disease and don’t . . . you are the disease.” – Richard Diaz
Merci, Doc. Craig’s posts make far more sense after you translate them.
Should not the Director of National Intelligence be objective and provide reliable intelligence to assist in the formation of rational policies? How can Mr. Clapper, and the intelligence information he provides to government, be considered reliable or objective when he announces his support for a particular policy? Is this another case where the intelligence will be “fixed” around the policy, as it was for purposes of drumming up support for a war against Iraq?
The US State Department spent 5 Billion Dollars on a neo nazi coup in Kiev. It only succeeded because of the snipers. Who were they and who paid them ?
Worse are the 239 US missiles in Romania, 409 in Poland and on 32 ships in the Mediterranean, 4 now in Cadiz. This leads to Launch On Warning, probably by 2017.
The stupid, crazy, bloody fools in the Pentagon have forgotten: There is no defence against Launch On Warning! LOW=Suicide Guaranteed. Will it even be announced ? The stupid, aggressive fools in Washington asked for it. Anyone believes the fairy tale that the missiles are to defend us from Iran ? But with Launch On Warning the Americans themselves won’t get away with anything, the Russians will make sure that they don’t die alone, and that means Launch On Warning=Suicide Guaranteed. What else do the stupid, crazy people in Washington expect them to do ?
Unfortunately this will once again be all posturings and senseless drivel.
I mean Ukrainians, even as well paid “freedom-loving” mercenaries themselves knowing this isn’t really their business had a bloody retreat on their face down even though they did have better guns and support.
I am amazed f#ck the EU governments and their citizens allowed for the USG to start “freedom-loving” wars within their borders. It seems Nicaragua and Afghanistan is not enough for them …
Satyagraha,
RCL
“Channel 4 reported on the central role played by far-right ultra-nationalists in that coup, noting that Sen. John McCain traveled to the Ukrainian capital (pictured, above) and shared a stage with the worst fascist elements. ”
Didn’t McCain admit that he didn’t know who he greeted in Syria, after he met isis leaders in May of 2013? Oh…they weren’t calling themselves ISIS back then.
Were there selfies? http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article41047.htm
“U.S. media accounts invariably depict the conflict in Ukraine as a noble struggle waged by the freedom-loving, pro-west democrats in Kiev against the oppressive, aggressive “Russian-backed” separatists in the east.”
Citing RT’s influence, Kerry asked US lawmakers for more money to counter reality – or for more money for propaganda and “democracy promotion” programs.
Executive Director of the Ron Paul Institute, Daniel McAdams, is one dissenting voice:
“I think the problem the US has is they have an unlimited advertising budget, but the product they’re selling is not very attractive overseas. People are tired of US interventionism; they’re tired of US exceptionalism; they’re tired of the US bombing their country – if you’re a Somalian, you don’t care about listening to a radio broadcast from the US, you just wish the US would stop bombing you,”
William R. Polk writes: Ukraine has a weak, corrupt and tyrannical government:
https://consortiumnews.com/2015/02/27/needed-leaders-like-jfk-and-khrushchev/
If Mr. McCain wants to arm every rebel in the world he should start by putting his hand in his own pocket
Amen, Glenn — anyone who wants to arm the Ukrainians is STOOPID. There is no amount of arms and fascists that can achieve regime change in Russia (which, let’s face it, is the U.S policy behind this mess). Ask the Nazis!
I wish people would see the hand of “Winston Smith” in most of what we get as “NEWS” from this mess. The “little green men” (positing the sub conscious men from Mars trophe to put Moscow in the bad light) and “pro-Russian” formulation , as opposed to the more neutral anti-Kiev (and of course pro-Kiev rather than presumptive UKRAINE) forces is clearly meant to, a la Citizen Kane, decide what we will think before we do. Think.
Perhaps more damning are the talking heads who spout a line like- the first carve up of a European nation by force since WW I-, begging all to forget the carve out of Serbia of Kosovo by US bombs not that long ago…
Glen,
Your reporting is nearing a point which will cause those who have much to lose, to develop a foolproof plan to silence you.
Presumably you are well aware of this, and hopefully have security measures in place, which has to be extremely difficult to do.
Millions upon millions are so disillusioned, and inequality has become so perverse, a voice such as yours cannot be ignored.
Off the wall thinking, perhaps, but there is nothing wrong with being constantly alert.
They can’t kill a guy who won an Academy Award,it would be too much for the American public to digest.
Mr. Clapper’s statement deals with a fundamental issue. If his statement was not approved by his boss who lives in the White House then Clapper should already have been fired for insubordination. He has not been fired hence his boss approved. In politics this is known as a trial balloon to find out how our nation will react. Since in simple minds Russia is the new Cuba that reaction is very predictable.
The motivation of the Republicans is to reduce the President’s political options. If he fails to respond to their calls for action in the Ukraine, he can be vilified as weak. If he does respond, he can be portrayed as reactive and requiring the prodding of Republicans to address concerns of vital national interest.
Neither of these framings of events is really in the President’s interest, so I don’t see why he would approve of Clapper echoing the statements of the Republicans. Officials are generally supposed to express confidence in the judgment of the President, not publicly question it. Even lobbying publicly for a specific course of action before the President has announced a decision is frowned upon. At best, it could be viewed as trying to take credit for the policy; at worst, as trying to force the President’s hand.
Perhaps Clapper’s days in the administration are numbered and he feels free to express his own opinions. Perhaps he feels invulnerable and doesn’t care what the President thinks. But in either case, the President would be unlikely to approve and so I don’t expect Clapper to stick around for long. However, I could be wrong, in which case it would be a pretty clear statement that President Obama is not in charge of his administration.
What? “President Obama not in charge of his administration?” Are you implying that the election of the U.S.A.’s First Black President (TM) — an African-American freshman senator, unknown in national politics before 2004 — might have been a mere P.R. “facelift” for the neo-con imperialists who are the real power bloc in Washington, DC? Are you insinuating that Mr. Obama may be little more than a stuffed suit, a Teleprompter-reading ventriloquist’s dummy for the Permanent War State? Are you suggesting that, like President George W. Bush, others may be pulling Mr. Obama’s strings, and that, no, he’s not The Decider, even though everyone around him keeps telling him that? What a pathetic picture you are painting, if only by implication!
I think Greenwald is one of the few reporters of our time who has both the reputation and the voice as well as the knowledge and comprehension to explain our world to us. Without people like him we are just sitting blindly in our corner of the world, sifting through thousands of conflicting articles or taking the word of what’s on television.
I’d really like to know his take on the reasoning of those pulling the strings though. The reality is, our world population is a problem and our consumerism is what allows corruption in politics. While we’re looking at those who are manufacturing these wars, shouldn’t we also be looking more closely at their reasons why and not just how? If we can’t regulate ourselves as a population to consume at a sustainable rate, and we can’t limit ourselves to one child per family to stop the population growth that we know is a problem, can we really blame anyone looking to manufacture wars and disasters to kill us off? I find articles like this chilling to accept as the reality of the world we live in, but I’m starting to find it just as chilling when I think about my contribution to the state of the world. I like to think that the game is rigged against us, and we’re conditioned by our upbringing, education and media all bombarding us on a daily basis with the normalization of buying more and more and thinking nothing of the rubbish we throw away, and knowing but not really caring if it comes from sweatshops or contains minerals mined by children, but is that a big enough excuse? If we’re not mature enough as a civilization to break away from the lifestyles we’re leading that allow for things like this to happen in the world, I’m not sure we can express too much outrage.
Low quality composition of group of sentences that can not be even called an article. Plain and open propaganda of hatred toward free Ukrainian people who are fighting against Russian savages.
Editor of Major German Newspaper Says He Planted Stories for the CIA
http://www.globalresearch.ca/editor-of-major-german-newspaper-says-he-planted-stories-for-the-cia/5429324
This is how the MSM works! Don’t believe them and especially don’t believe US and EU governments!
Thanks Mr. Greenwald for the good job.
Mr. Greenwald
This is one of your most pathetic articles – gutless and cowardly. It exposes you as a total hypocrite – especially concerning legal issues, human rights and the murder of innocents supported by the Russian government. Sometimes your level of anti-Americanism surprises even me.
This is an attempt to sweep the illegal Russian military involvement in Ukraine under the carpet by the use of “Nazi” scare tactics – the very same scare tactics you accuse the US government of conjuring up over Islamic terrorism. It’s laughable, but pathetic at the same time (especially from one who perpetually accuses American journalist of fealty to the state). Russia illegally annexed a part of the Ukraine. They admittedly invaded the Crimean Peninsula and military annexed the Peninsula for economic and military reasons. That’s indisputable. They did this despite their signing of the Budapest Memorandum in 1994 which they clearly violated. The international community responded by a vote of 100 in favor, eleven opposed with fifty-eight abstentions which recognized the territorial integrity of Ukraine.
“……In a sweeping rebuke of Moscow, the U.N. General Assembly on Thursday overwhelmingly affirmed Ukraine’s territorial integrity and deemed the referendum that led to Russia’s annexation of the Crimean Peninsula illegal…….100 countries in favor, 11 opposed and 58 abstentions…….”
The annexation of Crimea was ILLEGAL. It doesn’t matter how long the peninsula was a part of Russia. Legal matters only seem to matter to you where it fits your political agenda. While the US “illegally” drones “innocent” victims, the victims of the Russian illegally sponsored war are forgotten by you, Mr. Greenwald – or they are just a bother for your political agenda. You have laid bare your political agenda with this article. It has nothing to do with the murder of innocent people, human rights, civil liberties, or innocent victims, but is strictly politics 101 – anti-Americanism.
Over 5000 people have been killed in Ukraine and tens of thousands displaced – because of the Russian sponsored war. Russia has been arming sponsoring the (so-called) rebels and using Russian manpower and weaponry to fight the war in Eastern Ukraine. They have been accused of shooting down a passenger jet with 300 people aboard. That seems to escape your criticism. The truth of the matter is that Russia considers Ukraine to be in their sphere of influence – an idea that passed with the cold war – but an idea you apparently recognized when you quoted As’ad AbuKhalil in your article “RT Host Abby Martin Condemns Russian Incursion Into Crimea – On RT”.
“…….This is what imperialism is all about: to give yourself the right to intervene in far away places and to project power in every corner of the globe, including the arctic, and to disregard world public opinion. Imperialism is to have the temerity to lecture and hector Russia about the evils of intervention in the affairs of its neighbor, Ukraine, where the U.S. and EU are blatantly conspiring against Russian interests there….”
And you criticize the American press for fealty to the American government? Indeed, about every third article you harp on US support for anti-democratic ally, Saudi Arabia, while the very same Russian government – that you apparently pledge your loyalty – has supported the murder of 200,000 people in Syria.
There are plenty of Nazis in Russia, Mr. Greenwald. Russia is a right wing Mafia state certainly fascist in many respects – especially when it comes to the treatment of gays and Putin’s political opponents (and journalists). After all, Jewish immigration to Israel began mostly from Eastern Europe – including Russia. Antisemitism is a problem in Russia today:
“…….Antisemitic slogans and rhetoric in public demonstrations are frequently reported, most of them attributed to nationalist parties and political groups. In a February 23, 2006 rally celebrating “Defenders of the Fatherland Day”, a yearly tribute to war veterans, according to the newspaper Kommersant, marchers flourished signs with messages including “Kikes! Stop drinking Russian blood!”, “White Power!”, and “A Russian government for Russia”……”
This article was a total joke, Mr. Greenwald.
LOL, the citizens in Crimea overwhelmingly voted decided to join Russia, it wasn’t even close: http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/16/world/europe/ukraine-crisis/
I’ll let others destroy the rest of your sadly inaccurate rebuttal.
Once again, Craig (Mr. never met a US regime change effort he didn’t like) is accusing others of what he himself does… blindly defending everything the US is doing regardless of the facts.
Ignoring the US backed illegal coup that reversed the election in Ukraine.
Ignoring the vote in Crimea… because they voted the wrong way.
Ignoring the role the fascists are playing in Ukraine… because their anti-Semitism can be ignored.
Ignoring the role the foreign “Islamic” militants are playing… because in this case (like Syria btw) they are “good guys”..
Ignoring the billions the US has spent propping up the illegal government.
The serious problems in Russia are not proof that what the US is doing isn’t also seriously problematic too.
Both can be true.
Pretending otherwise is the real “pathetic”, “gutless”, “cowardly”, “hypocritical”, “human rights violating” position… to use his words.
^ illiterate dumb ameriKan. Liberate Hawaii which you grabbed ILLEGALLY.
Hi Craig, great to see you back, how are you? You haven’t overthrown nasty old Putin as yet I see. No US embassy in Crimea for Poroshenko (I assume you read the wikileaks cable when he discussed this with Hillary). At least the population of Crimea is happy and safe, imagine if they too had to face the mighty Ukraine airforce.
Post-referendum polls [Wiki: Crimea status referendum]
The results of the survey by the Broadcasting Board of Governors, conducted 21–29 April 2014, showed that 83% of Crimeans felt that the results of the March 16 referendum on Crimea’s status likely reflected the views of most people there. Whereas, this view is shared only by 30% in the rest of Ukraine.[142]
According to the Gallup’s survey performed on 21–27 April, 82.8% of Crimean people consider the referendum results reflecting most Crimeans’ views,[143] and 73.9% of Crimeans say Crimea’s becoming part of Russia will make life better for themselves and their families, just 5.5% disagree.[143]
According to survey carried out by Pew Research Center in April 2014, majority of Crimean residents in Simferopol, Sevastopol, and Kerch say the referendum was free and fair (91%) and that the Ukrainian government has to recognize the results of the vote (88%).[144] All three cities have below-average populations of Crimean Tatars.[citation needed]
As far as I know there has been no further news regarding who shot down MH17 as yet, but I have not been watching Psaki or Harf for a few months. Have they released any new information?
I’m sure you will join me in congratulating ‘the team’ for their Oscar success.
Thanks Craig
Apparently invading, occupying, and annexing a sovereign nation has become acceptable.
So the people of Crimea have no right to choose their own sovereign future? It was their third attempt to split away from Ukraine since the Soviet fall. Crimea has been nothing but Russian for hundreds of years. It was arbitrarily “given” to the Ukraine SSR in 1954. Funny how people think that illegal, arbitrary Soviet dictums are sacrosanct.
The fate of Donbass is tragic, though. The Russians need to answer for what they’re doing there, just as other countries, like the U.S., need to be held responsible for supporting rebels in Syria, a sovereign nation. However, it takes two to wage a war. There was a period where negotiations were possible between the two sides. The rebels had armed themselves but the army hadn’t yet taken action. I believe a comprehensive agreement on a federal Ukraine which would respect the rights and wishes of its ethnic Russian population could’ve been made, the rebels weren’t as united as they are now.
However, caught in the midst of a patriotic tornado and fully spurred on by the West, they sent in the army and the rest is history. The EU and US had a lot of influence on that coup government. They could’ve put pressure on them to negotiate. Instead, they gave them a green light to wage warfare on its own population, thinking it would be a short campaign. The rebels, and the local population, then faced a point of no return with civilian casualties piling up. It was all or nothing from then on out.
No one has looked pretty in this crisis. Yet, I see all these people (politicians, pundits or normal people), who presumably felt no compunction with bombing Serbia based on lies and leading to the deaths and injuries of thousands of civilians, blasting Russia. I admire their newfound sense of morality but it’s absolutely worthless if these people don’t also criticise the much worse and very recent actions of the U.S. and others.
Peace out.
1) Ukraine was not a war with Russia
2) There is absolutely NO evidence that the people of Crimea were facing a humanitarian crisis, were facing genocide, were facing ethnic cleansing…ABSOLUTELY NONE
3) Yet a foreign force, Russia, invaded, occupied and annexed a sovereign territory in violations of ALL possible international laws and in violations of its own agreement (Memorandum of 1994)
However, you believe elections in those conditions are acceptable. About anarchy, is it acceptable?
“Bombing Serbia based on lies”
Please explain us those “lies”
1) Racak Massacre, 15 October 1999
2) Podujevo Massacre, 28 March, 1999
3) Izbica Massacre, 28 March, 1999
I could go on for hours, but please explain us how the United Nations, the ICC, Human Rights Watch and many other human rights organizations and multiple press reports manage to spread those “lies”. And would you also provide us the similarities between Kosovo and and Crimea when it comes to state oppression. In Kosovo, the Serbian government restricted the local language, closed local newspapers, installed Serbs in public companies and schools after firing local employees. Obviously, we have been victims of lies, fake pictures of dead bodies, fake Serbian laws, fake images from the world media. So please explain us how all of this was possible.
“……So the people of Crimea have no right to choose their own sovereign future?….”
Not at the point of a gun
“……It was their third attempt to split away from Ukraine since the Soviet fall. Crimea has been nothing but Russian for hundreds of years. It was arbitrarily “given” to the Ukraine SSR in 1954. Funny how people think that illegal, arbitrary Soviet dictums are sacrosanct…..”
It’s irrelevant – but nice try. Is Russia ready to hold a referendum by Chechens to secede?
“…..However, caught in the midst of a patriotic tornado and fully spurred on by the West, they sent in the army and the rest is history. The EU and US had a lot of influence on that coup government……”
Of course, the KGB…er, the SVR never would have considered planting their feet in Ukraine to influence political outcomes, right? And Yanukovych wasn’t a Russian puppet either, right? Russia is in no position of accusing anyone of backing a coup. After decades of subjugation under the Soviet system, the Ukrainian people might have understandably wanted closer ties to Europe.
“……Yet, I see all these people (politicians, pundits or normal people), who presumably felt no compunction with bombing Serbia based on lies and leading to the deaths and injuries of thousands of civilians, blasting Russia. I admire their newfound sense of morality but it’s absolutely worthless if these people don’t also criticise the much worse and very recent actions of the U.S. and others…..”
Wrong again. Criticize the US all you want for things you perceive as wrong, but none of that justifies Russian actions in Ukraine – or Syria for that matter.
Thanks.
Nice comment Tango.
The brigade that challenges points that weren’t made and answers questions that weren’t asked and thinks that only one side is bound by laws gets upset when reasonable, historically relevant and fact based comments challenge their agenda.
The Greenwald mouseketeer call to action Mona?
Leaving you to the best person for the job of clarifying your commentary, Craig.
DOC HOLLYWOOD — Paging Doc Hollywood. Please pick up the white courtesy phone. Your party has arrived.
Someone actually had the temerity to put scare quotes around the word ‘innocent’ when referring to children, babies, old men and women, brides, grooms, teenage boys who happened to have the distinction of not having “a more responsible father.” Some would call that “balls,” I call it stupidity.
Kitt
“……Someone actually had the temerity to put scare quotes around the word ‘innocent’ when referring to children, babies, old men and women, brides, grooms, teenage boys who happened to have the distinction of not having “a more responsible father.” Some would call that “balls,” I call it stupidity….”
There is only one country (not including Ukraine) with troops on the ground in Ukraine. There is only one country that has illegally annexed a part of a sovereign nation and violated a treaty they signed in 1994. It’s clear that Putin is protecting his interests in Ukraine. The sympathetic far left – like you Kitt- cannot understand why Ukrainians having been subjugated under the Soviet empire for decades might want closer ties to Europe. You can figure it out in South America when it comes to Anti Americanism, but you are clueless in eastern Europe where after the USSR collapsed, fifteen countries were freed of Soviet rule.
Temerity my ass. Keep kissing the ass that feeds you the bullshit.
Thanks.
Greenwald has exposed his deepest anti-Americanism by supporting the Russians (yes, he is supporting the Russians).
Actually, “Craig” I didn’t reply to any of your nonsense that you wrote but for the one bit that I quoted and replied to. Which was that you chose to claim that in your opinion no one who has been murdered by hell fire drone missiles was “innocent.” You clearly stated by putting scare quotes around the word innocent that *everyone murdered by hell fire drone bombs was probably guilty of some “CraigSummers” imagined horror and deserved to be murdered. Which would include all the the various ages and various people that I listed. Fuck the rest of your drivel in your comment that I didn’t reply to, and then this one also where you’re “Far Left” screams coined for and at my direction for things I did not address at all.
Who needs the especially clever Doc Hollywood when you’re around to make a laughable mess of your own comments all by yourself?
“…..“Craig” I didn’t reply to any of your nonsense that you wrote but for the one bit that I quoted and replied to…..”
In other words, you don’t know a fucking thing about Ukraine. Can you even locate it on a map? That’s the reason you neglected the rest of the post.
Thanks.
No, if you want to know the reason I “neglected” the rest of your post just read Doc Hollywood’s response. There is no reason to bother with your posts except to either do what I did; demolishing one short but horrible bit, or doing what Doc does; exposing you in detail for the vapid, wretched cretin that you constantly show yourself to be.
Kitt
“….No, if you want to know the reason I “neglected” the rest of your post just read Doc Hollywood’s response. There is no reason to bother with your posts except to either do what I did; demolishing one short but horrible bit, or doing what Doc does; exposing you in detail for the vapid, wretched cretin that you constantly show yourself to be…..”
In other words, you don’t know a fucking thing about Ukraine. Can you even locate it on a map? That’s the reason you neglected the rest of the post.
Thanks.
Very nice Kitt.
You’ve got him unhinged and chasing his own tail.
For some reason I keep thinking about Monty Python…
Tim- What is your favorite color?
Craig- Six!
Ah, Mr. Summers,
Your vitriol is showing.
Real carefully planned perception management requires a reasonable, and studied response; I have no doubt whatsoever that you and your few like minded acolytes, will not prevail.
Truth is like the crocus after a harsh winter; it sticks up out of the snow, brazenly, unexpected, and floors all who are fortunate enough to see…
Most UN members are small countries with weak armies. They therefore tend to oppose territorial infringements by stronger nations on weaker ones. Their votes are clearly self-serving.
Should the self interest of many nations prevail over the self interest of a single nation? If so, most countries would vote to confiscate all the resources of the United States and distribute them to the rest of the world. This is clearly absurd, and so the concept of the United Nations is clearly absurd. There is no such thing as a democracy of nations.
I don’t deny it may be useful to use such votes as a pretext to do something you planned to do anyway. But the question of whether the US should take on Russia in its own backyard should be considered on its own merits. So Greenwald’s question – who would benefit? – is legitimate, even if US policy makers would prefer to sweep it under the rug.
Benito
“…..But the question of whether the US should take on Russia in its own backyard should be considered on its own merits…..”
Their OWN backyard? Interesting comment identical to the quote by Greenwald I posted in my first post. Certainly Russia is treating Ukraine like its their own backyard i.e., sphere of influence. Regardless of whether you believe the UN is credible or not, invading and annexing territory from another country is illegal. In addition Russia has no grounds to militarily support a war with troops and equipment because the people rose up to get rid of the Russian puppet.
However, Putin is smart enough to understand that the US is not going to become militarily involved (with manpower). The sanctions will hurt in the long run.
Thanks Benito
A sphere of influence is merely a function of a country’s ability to project military power. The US has a global sphere of influence, because it is able to project its military power anywhere. However, countries like Russia are regional powers, and therefore do have a sphere of influence in their own ‘backyard’. Proximity is a very strong military advantage for obvious logistical reasons. So it seems we both agree the US cannot feasibly protect its interests in the Ukraine through direct military action.
Handwringing about whether either the US or Russia have the ‘right’ to control the Ukraine does not interest me. The only thing that matters is whether they have the power and the will to do so.
Since Russia has both a stronger interest in the Ukraine and a larger military presence on the ground, the question therefore becomes whether the US should recognize this reality or attempt to weaken Russia by imposing sanctions. Sanctions are a two edged sword. They will induce a rapprochement with China; Russia becoming a key supplier of raw materials to China’s industrial machine. This could pose a long term threat to US global dominance, and may not be in its long term best interests.
The US however, appears to be banking on this situation drawing Europe more tightly into the NATO fold – which they appear to feel is strategically more important.
The Great Game continues.
“……The US however, appears to be banking on this situation drawing Europe more tightly into the NATO fold – which they appear to feel is strategically more important…..”
We both agree that Russia (and Islamism) help in that regard.
that “CraigSummers” person, robot and/or federated turk is just one of the many shills they use here and in many other sites where the can’t quite “responsibly” control “freedom of speech”
I can’t even perceive, let alone read his comments, why even minding them?
Satyagraha,
RCL
Neither of those. No, Craig is a rabid Zionist of particularly authoritarian bent. He unashamedly accepts and embraces the use of torture (doesn’t shy from the word), and will not explain why the 4th Amendment’s restrictions on government’s search and seizure authority are worthwhile.
He’s deeply immoral and frequently logically incoherent.
“…..He’s deeply immoral and frequently logically incoherent…..”
As a leading cheerleader of the Greenwald “must be right about everything” club, you really don’t have a leg to stand on Mona. Despite what you think, you are about as far to the left politically as anyone I’ve discussed the issues with. Being as anti-American as Greenwald has nothing to do with civil liberties like overstepping the fourth amendment, human rights, killing of “innocents”, collective punishment for western Muslims, concern for the rise of Nazis – or this is my country bullshit. That’s a huge high flying act to cover for his strict anti Americanism. His vitriol is continuous and impressive. Omidyar surely must have been clueless.
What is amazing is the sound of the goose stepping from the mouseketeers.
Who’s the leader of the club
That goosesteps happily
G-G-R E-E-N W-A-L-D
I don’t know what you even mean when you say “far left,” as you do several times per many threads. Maybe it’s a compliment? Like being called a “Civil Liberties Extremest!” (hat tip goes to Joe Klein)
“That’s a huge high flying act to cover for his [Greenwald’s] strict anti Americanism. His [Greenwald’s] vitriol is continuous and impressive. Omidyar surely must have been clueless.” – CraigSummers
Torture is anti-American. CraigSummers – you support and condone torture; Mr. Greenwald does not.
Violating our civil liberties is anti-American. CraigSummers – you support and condone these violations. Mr. Greenwald does not.
Your positions are pathological in that you insist (and project this view upon others) what you excel at best: anti-Americanism.
You are clueless.
“Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish.” – Euripides, Bacchae
Sillyputty and Kitt
Do either of you know one thing about Ukraine other than what Greenwald has told you?
Craig, when a proud torture advocate — you — calls me names, including “far left” or a “goosestepping mouseketeer,” I’m not remotely concerned. If such as you thought well of me, this would be evidence I’d suffered cognitive impairment and altered personality.
“Do…you know one thing about Ukraine other than what Greenwald has told you? – CraigSummers
Yes, I do. I left Kitt out of the quote as he’s quite capable at speaking and thinking for himself.
Your tired schtick that others here are simply mindless followers of Glenn Greenwald is as shallow as your instinctual predilection and acceptance for torturing human beings and denying others their civil rights is abominable.
So I’ll repeat: you are clueless. To that I’ll add: willfully ignorant.
“All things truly wicked start from innocence.” – Ernest Hemingway
It’s the projection that makes me smile… and seeing how he acts as a stone for many here to sharpen their blades.
Nearby we have some perfect examples…
… he regurgitates US propaganda like a parrot and then accuses others of goose stepping…
… he compares others to Nazis while defending fascists…
… he accuses others of being “apologists for Islamic terrorists” and then defends “Islamic” terrorists in Syria and Ukraine.
But you have to laugh when GG points out the “apologist” tactic in this article, and Craig goes right into it like a pitcher who can only throw curveballs but that thinks the next batter will never expect a curveball.
The childish unsupported name calling gets old though. The old rule was the first person that crosses that line is clearly losing the debate, but he starts off with it… and he thinks it somehow bolsters his arguments. Too young for the role or something?
Greenwald Poor Journalistic Standards:
1) “Take responsibility for the ACCURACY of their work. Verify information before releasing it..” Society of Professional Journalists
“The U.S. is now bombing Syria, of course, but rather than fighting against Assad, the Syrian dictator is (once again) America’s ally and partner. ” Glenn Greenwald
The link is a BBC article reporting Assad’s statement that third parties in the conflict in Syria are providing him with information on the bombing of targets inside Syria. This is not evidence that Assad is America’s “ally and partner”. For a “journalist” who has access to top secret US government information, you should be able to provide clear evidence that the US is providing financial aid, military equipment or diplomatic assistance to the Assad regime before you make such statement.
“U.S. media propaganda has not only sought to glorify the Kiev regime by suppressing all of these elements” Glenn Greenwald
New York Times Andrew Kramer’s Article: “Officials in Kiev say the militias and the army coordinate their actions, but the militias, which count about 7,000 fighters, are angry and, at times, uncontrollable. One known as Azov, which took over the village of Marinka, flies a neo-Nazi symbol resembling a Swastika as its flag.” August 9, 2014
Los Angeles Times Robert English’s Article: “Neo fascists are as much a menace to Ukraine as Putin’s actions in Crimea.” March 13, 2014
Washington Post Article “Warlords and armed groups threaten Ukraine’s rebuilding” December 30, 2014
CNN Amanpour, Stephen Cohen debate on extremists in Ukraine youtube.com/watch?v=H-B1vWFdPXo
Since the beginning on the conflict in Ukraine US media has repeatedly reported on extremist groups fighting on Kiev’s side. How many reports from The Intercept contain information about those groups?
2) Provide context: “Take special care not to misrepresent or oversimplify in promoting, previewing or summarizing a story.” Society of Professional Journalists
“arming Ukrainian forces would empower a monstrous crew of fascists …The coup itself, which the U.S. government supported, almost certainly did exactly that.” Glenn Greenwald
Has Glenn Greenwald described the end of Mubarak regime in Egypt as a “coup”? Moreover, Glenn Greenwald completely omitted Russian invasion and annexation of a sovereign country and Russia’s support for the separatists. There was not a war in Ukraine with civilian casualties before the Russian invasion of Crimea. As if those FACTS have nothing to do with the empowerment of extremists in Ukraine.
LOL, what a ridiculous response. Must you be reminded that the citizens in Crimea overwhelmingly voted decided to join Russia? It wasn’t even close: http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/16/world/europe/ukraine-crisis/
I’ll let others destroy the rest of your sadly inaccurate rebuttal.
Scant reporting of the extremism among Ukrainian forces by a few US media outlets doesn’t absolve the suppression in the majority of the reporting and statements by officials.
Likewise, the lack of official “ally and partner” status for Assad doesn’t change the fact that we are once again fighting against the same groups and that Assad is being informed of our efforts. As they say, actions speak louder than words. But then, that would be an “accuracy” issue.
“Scant reporting of the extremism among Ukrainian forces by a few US media outlets doesn’t absolve the suppression in the majority of the reporting and statements by officials.”
The New York Times, The Los Angeles Times, The Washington Post, CNN (and the Wall Street Journal that covered the extremists in Ukraine) are not “few media outlets”. There are among the top media outlets in America in terms of circulation and viewers. I, personally learned about Neo Nazis in Ukraine by reading and watching main US media outlets, not by reading The Intercept. For Glenn Greenwald to describe the US media as propaganda trying to suppress these elements is just poor journalism.
Fighting the same enemies does not mean a state is an ally or partner of another. Is the Mexican federal police the ally or partner of a violent drug cartel because the law enforcement agencies are fighting a competing cartel in the same route? You would have considered Iran an ally or partner of the USA when the US government was toppling Iran’s enemy Saddam Hussein? A member of the “Axis of Evil”?
There is a difference between a journalist who has to abide by certain ethics and an activist who is careless about the truth. Getting awards, medals, oscars does not necessarily mean that a journalist follows basic standard of journalism.
Does this count?
No it does not. New conjuncture, new strategies. The same US government that was strongly opposed to the Bolshevik Revolution strongly supported Stalin against the Nazis. Was the US government an ally and a partner of Stalin after WWII? Greenwald presented Assad as an ally and a partner of the US as of February 2015. He has a responsibility to present evidence of that. What the US did with Assad in 2002 or what the US did with Israel against Syria decades ago are not evidence in support of his claims.
Let’s see.
How many stories did those outlets publish on Ukraine? How many did you cite?
Where are ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX?
The mutually beneficial temporary relationships in Syria and Iraq would be classified by you as what?
As for Mexico, the answer is probably yes.
Daring to bring up the ethics of journalism given the failures of the corporate media is… well… I think the Supreme Court would reject your case for lack of standing.
But it’s good to know we can count on you to protest the next media snow job for war if you’ve come around.
“How many stories did those outlets publish on Ukraine? How many did you cite?
Where are ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX?”
That is not my job to do Greenwald’s job. He is the one who is supposed to research the US media before he accuses those outlets of propaganda. Everybody is free to have its own logic. Basically, in your logic ALL the US media outlets must report a story and these outlets must publish those stories as frequently as YOU like in order for you to shield them from being accused of propaganda. In that case the Cartoon Network is the biggest propaganda channel for not playing the Pinky and the Brain!
However, since you asked here are stories from the outlets you mentioned including some reports on McCain supports for Kiev
nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-crisis/analysis-u-s-cozies-kiev-government-including-far-right-n66061
abcnews.go.com/International/ukraine-teetering-brink-civil-war-violence/story?id=23594278 (ABC started reporting on those groups even before the full scale civil war!!!)
Actually the Mexican police is fighting all the cartels regardless whether these cartels are fighting against each other, but as I wrote, everybody is allowed to have his or her own logic.
“Everybody is free to have its own logic”.
Perfect.
The news organizations’ complicity with the war machine’s rhetoric is astounding and would be comical if the stakes weren’t so high. When CNN announced their new “Quiz Show”, there was little surprise left as we’ve watched their descent from a decent source of news(such as it was) into entertainment news and finally into game show contestants. These are fearful times but of whom should we be afraid? The “terrorists”? Somewhat. More importantly is our nation’s slide into becoming a fascist state where even our musings are captured, stored, and analyzed to make sure that none of us stray too far from the “official” truth. How long wil it be before some of us here are hauled away on charges of the catch-all “providing material support” simply because we disagree with the accepted narrative? This is already happening in some communities(hint, Muslim). When they come for you, who will come to your defense? Speak up people. Thanks again Glenn.
No one will come to our defense, because there will be no one left.
thing is, if people haven’t known all this for the past year they’re beyond all hope. the information is incredibly easy to find if you escape the gaping maw of corporate news for 10 seconds.
i’d say it’s a feature rather than a bug (though almost every incident of CIA and NATO meddling throughout history has had the air of a keystone cops episode).
one side of the “debate” (as in: the narrow spectrum discussion where putin is assumed by both sides to be hitler v2 and all are in agreement on our “right” to act like assholes on every inch of the globe) so far seems to be, “hey, the trailer trash from the west has had this long to ‘pacify’ the east and keeps getting their collective ass handed to them. plus the attempts at conscription have been a debacle at best and the soldiers dumb/cowardly/hitlery enough to bother signing up never get paid. should we give these inbred simpletons MORE weapons?”
and of course, the other side consists of foaming-at-the-mouth neocons and “grand chessboard” megalomaniacs. their answer to that little quandry is to send in “military advisors” and more NATO candy so none of the skinheads have to be counted on to pull any triggers (maybe flight MH-17 was a factor). with an election year approaching i’d put my money on this fun bunch of patrick batemans and dr. strangeloves.
but remember: putin is the ONLY ONE sending in weapons. sure, there are few if any pictures to prove it and sure, if russia really did want to “invade” ukraine – to paraphrase putin – we would be talking about tanks in the middle of kiev instead of imaginary trucks coming over the border. plus, let’s just forget the reports of weapons being funneled over another border to the neo-nazis through the same oil state “allies” that helped set up ISIS.
the propaganda has been roughly as thick, relentless and screeching here in canada as in the states (per capita). whoever is pulling the strings (see above for my assumption) REALLY wants this. i haven’t seen DC sporting a Death Hard-On like this for quite some time. should be a fun couple of years.
“The word Fascism has now no meaning except in so far as it signifies “something not desirable” Orwell 1946
Better late than never….
This is another dirty little conflict (war) initiated via coup d’etat by the sterling leadership of United States with the interests of energy and ultimately Central Banking control freaks at it’s filthy, draconian, heart and collective mind.
So then…let the truth be known.
Interesting article from Feb 2014 by Paul Craig Roberts: http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/02/25/crisis-ukraine-paul-craig-roberts/
“As Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland made clear in her speech last December and in the leaked recording of her telephone conversation with the US ambassador in Kiev, Washington spent $5 billion of US taxpayer dollars engineering a coup in Ukraine that overthrew the elected democratic government.
That it was a coup is also underlined by the obvious public lies that Obama has told about the situation, blaming, of course, the overthrown government, and by the total misrepresentation of Ukrainian developments by the US and European presstitute media. The only reason to misrepresent the events is to support the coup and to cover up Washington’s hand.”
The rest is yet one more blot on the people of the United States of America.
It is time to call the MSM bullshit and smack these pompous self-designated rulers in the face, with the knowledge that masses of human beings have caught on to this diabolical control game, and those masses of entities are calling end-game.
Think about it. Just say no.
Thanks Mr. Greenwald.
Ukraine. This isn’t a war between Russian-backed separatists and a whole bunch of private militias on the Ukranian side. It is a war between Russia and Ukraine, plain and simple — a Ukraine that is incredibly nationalistic and incredibly pro-European almost to a man (ever since almost a year ago when Crimea was annexed). I would guess 90 percent of all Ukrainians are living, breathing, working and struggling to wrest their country from the oppresive grip and influence of Russia. To Ukranians it has become a choice between losing and becoming enslaved to Russia (Hell), and successfully defending the nation and joining the European Union (Nirvana).
There is no doubt that Ukraine is struggling as a direct result of the country’s coffers having been plundered by avaricious oligarchs. Ukraine has a hollow shell of an army. Hence the formation in the nick of time of the private militias, manned by volunteers, many of whom are combat veterens, so have military know-how. They are esily able to out perform the regular, still quite corrupt regular army. So basically, thank god for the militias, without them Putin would be in Kiev by now.
Ukraine is desparately crying out for help, it is a hair’s breadth from bankruptcy and needs support from the west – especially if the west is at all interested in stopping Putin’s project to regress Russia back to being the old aggresive Soviet Union once again. So for Ukraine to ask for defensive weapons is totally logical. And for the US to think Putin is a European problem and not an American one, hence no need for the US to supply weapons, well that could also be argued as being logical. But to argue that the Nazi influence has grown out of all propotion in Ukraine, and therefore the US should steer well clear of the problem, is wrong I think.
Far Right party influence in France, Germany, Greece, Finland, Denmark, The Netherlands, Hungary, Austria, Italy See –>
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/05/26/far-right-europe-election_n_5391873.html
And in Ukraine: “Ukrainian Jews satisfied with far-right’s crash in elections” –>
http://www.jta.org/2014/10/31/news-opinion/world/ukrainian-jews-satisfied-with-far-rights-crash-in-elections
This is wrong on so many levels.
There is an overarching commonality to all of Obama’s wars, as well as most of Bush’s wars, and that is to take out Russia’s allies and isolate Russia. This is the neocon’s strategy of empire, as enunciated by Paul Wolfowitz, and Obama is just another neocon. How he got that way, probably no one knows except Russ Tice, who claimed that Cheney and his chief of staff had Hayden tap Obama’s phones for the purpose of blackmail.
Wolfowitz–“We can use our military in the region…and the Soviets won’t stop us. And we’ve got about 5 or 10 years to clean up those old Soviet regimes – Syria, Iran, Iraq – before the next great superpower comes on to challenge us.”
Google “A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm”. It is a strategy paper for Israel written by Richard Perle, James Colbert, Charles Fairbanks,
Douglas Feith, Robert Loewenberg, David Wurmser, and Meyrav Wurmser and presented to Netayahu in 1997.
Without reading Clean Break, US actions since 9/11 appear almost haphazard, opportunistic and non-sensical. After reading Clean Break, you can see the strategy as Clean Break objectives are achieved one after another. And Russia’s problem is that they are supporting Syria which hinders the Clean Break strategy. Of course, the real question is why the US would follow an Israel strategy paper when the results are so costly and disasterous for the US. But then look up a lot of those signatures on the Clean Break and the Project for a New American Century papers and you will discover them in positions of power in both the Bush and Obama administrations. They are called Neocons.
Read a “Clean Break”, then examine US actions since 9/11. Then make up your own mind.
I am happy to finally see an article about this mess in Ukraine from TI. Business as usual for the U.S. war machine – wars are needed to justify its bloated budget.
Not James “not unwittingly” Clapper again, the U. S.’s top un-Intelligence official? Where do they get these guys? The man would be a joke we could laugh at time and again when we’re down if it were not for the fact that he does so much real harm. The US government is littered with stupid idiots directing our foreign policy. Maybe they are effective after all in that their collective stupidity is scaring the rest of the world, us included, into submission ahead of their military hardware.
Russia instantly became the Enemy number I after granting Ed. Snowden[ God bless him ] a political assalym
The Cold War Is An Old War
http://www.skeptic.ca/Parenti_Cold_War.htm
Uhh, I don’t think that the arrogance of the US even cares for that sort of excuses at this point. “Spreading democracy” is quite sufficient.
Moral righteousness is such a schizophrenic proposition. Without any morality, we have the worst kind of Hobbesian anarchy. Too much and we have the worst kind of zealotry. Some like Sam Harris have suggested going large scale with a morality that encompasses all humans, but that seems prone to the same problems – at one end total utilitarianism could look much like The Obsolete Man, and on the other is goddamned Hobbesian anarchy again. It’s no wonder that many religions ultimately conclude that every individual should engage in a personal quest for increased compassion, because this seems like the only workable system of morality on a large scale. Unfortunately this provides little guidance in practical power politics. The choices are Putin and a group rife with extremists? Risk empowering a tyrannical group of people or simply shrug and let tyrannical people do what they will in the world?
While I don’t think there’s any good solution to any of this, I do think the moral stories we tell ourselves often only serve to obfuscate the issues. I would rather people said “This group is on the verge of having too much power and, unlike this other group, is an immediate threat to global stability right now, which is why we need to act”, vs. “This group is inherently evil and stands for Bad and must be defeated in the name of Good, a fact which will mysteriously change for reasons only God understands after some time passes.” I think we are slowly getting there. I was not alive during the Cold War, but my impression is that there was less debate and discussion of causality than there is now when people push back against things like the “Islam is inherently Evil!” meme. Terrorism of any kind is evil, whole religions and societies are not. In children it’s a sign of maturity when they get past the “I’m good and you’re bad and everything is all your fault!” stage. If they don’t, they grow up to be the office narcissist who thinks he’s god’s gift to mankind and that the fact that he stole the office lottery pool is an adorable foible while the fact that someone used his favorite mug is a crime against humanity, because that’s just what egocentrism does. I am certainly biased – and I realize this may annoy some here – in that I actually see the US as somewhat further down this path than some countries. Not because we are inherently Good, but because we’ve been very lucky to have the right conditions that allow for a bit of expansion of perspective and liberal-mindedness. But I still think it’s a matter of degree, and to the degree that we can get out of black-and-white narratives and try to understand causality on both sides, humanity will be better off.
There may be a genetic component to morality, what are the implications?:
-‘Morality is often considered to be the domain of philosophers, not biologists. But scientists have often wondered what role our genomes play in directing our moral compass. Today, a paper was published in the open access journal PLoS ONE which found moral decision making was influenced by different forms of a single gene. “
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/science-sushi/2011/10/05/a-moral-gene/
I think there must be a strong genetic component – it’s also been linked to how people process disgust, for example, which could well be an inherited trait. But that addresses only the broadest moral intuitions, not the specifics of what is considered moral and who a person feels compassion for.
This is why humans have generally adopted a more flexible approach of invoking morality only when it is convenient. It is particularly beneficial if the flexible system is applied to one’s own actions, and a more rigid one to the actions of others.
I also agree that the two sides in the Ukraine dispute are pretty unsavory, which leads me to believe that best option for the Ukraine might be for the US to rule it. As you state, the US is further along the path to enlightenment than the other benighted nations of the world. It also has the largest military arsenal which is useful to help convince those who might otherwise be skeptical of the US’s moral superiority.
You’re still so cynical. Although I guess my thinking does, on reflection, rely on an underlying state of compassion and love in sentient minds. Without that, teaching people to see past morality might be teaching them how to become enlightened sociopaths – it would decrease violence caused by moral outrage but possibly increase self-interested might makes right calculations. But I believe that minds naturally seek happiness, and they naturally become concerned with the happiness of other minds that they are connected with at a subjective level.
I’m not cynical. I simply believe that human interactions are governed, not by a process of morality (which is merely a system we use to assert our own superiority over others, thereby justifying the harm we do to them), but by a process of negotiation. Those with the strongest negotiating position (as defined by military firepower) generally prevail. I call this reasoned negotiation because people become very reasonable when they understand the alternative.
That is actually decidedly untrue, if that were the case we would have had totalitarian world peace a long time ago. Humans (and maybe other animals that live socially, I don’t know) often prefer to fight to the death rather than capitulate. Taking this seeming illogic into account, one can either conclude that humans are doomed to fight one another until the end of time, or that there is a sort of mystic relationship between means and ends that means they slowly lead to the greater good for all. I prefer meditating, reading thoughts like Pinker’s “The Better Angels Of Our Nature”, and assuming the latter, because it is far less depressing. Here, watch a BMW commercial, it will make you feel better (And then worse, because of the irony that it’s a BMW commercial. And then better! And then worse. And then…)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgxsUiY_n0w
See. I’m not too cynical; I’m too naïve. I actually believe that people can be reasonable.
Test –
<img src=”https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/8a8d1ede9502cc7196c836266d422b26?s=32&d=https%3A%2F%2Fsecure.gravatar.com%2Favatar%2Fad516503a11cd5ca435acc9bb6523536%3Fs%3D32&r=PG” height=”32″ width=”32″>
Test – hadīth = hadīth
Mike5000 – “You do know that Poroshenko is the democratically elected President?”
Yes after the coup, many voters in the WEST of Ukraine…voted for Poroshenko. The coup leaders had already lost control of Crimea and the east, and many of those people’s votes were not counted either because they were unable or unwilling to participate in the post-coup system.
-”Yet the question of who was able to vote Sunday loomed large over the democratic process. Some 35.5 million Ukrainians were eligible to vote, but separatists in the eastern Donetsk and Luhansk regions — which have 5.1 million voters — rejected the vote because they say they are no longer part of Ukraine.
The regional administration in Donetsk said only 426 of 2,430 polling stations in the region were open Sunday, and none in the city of Donetsk, which has 1 million people. There was no voting in the city of Luhansk either, but some stations were open in the wider Luhansk region.
It was also not clear if voters from Crimea were able to travel to other areas in Ukraine to vote.”
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/petro-poroshenko-wins-ukraine-s-presidential-election-exit-polls-show-1.2653513
Wow, you want to blame the Ukrainian government because Putin won’t let his victims vote in democratic elections?
Putin’s lies, invasions, and repressions are not the fault of the Ukrainian government.
I still think national sovereignty is an important principle. Lots of people do. That’s why the Russian soldiers in Ukraine are pretending to be volunteers, and why US troops are pretending they were invited in by a legitimate government.
But beyond that, Ukraine shouldn’t have been forced to choose between EU/NATO and Russia. The Issue should have been pushed down the road, Ukraine is considered to be the most corrupt nation in Europe, a basket case, The EU already has it’s hands full bailing out Greece, and NATO isn’t enhancing its members’ security by encroaching on Russia’s black sea fleet.
What to do now? It’s cheaper to send weapons, and I’m sure Obama will continue to do that, but if the Europeans do want to help western Ukraine, and if they have any money left over after restructuring the debts in Spain and Greece, they could help Ukraine pay their Russian gas bills:
KIEV/KRASNOYARSK, Russia, Feb 27 (Reuters) – Ukraine has sent a small prepayment of $15 million to Russia for March natural gas deliveries, energy officials from the two sides said on Friday, after Moscow threatened to cut off supply.
In their latest dispute, Ukraine and Russia have argued over who should pay for Russian gas sent to two rebel-held areas of eastern Ukraine after supply from Kiev was cut off.
Moscow has also warned that Ukraine needs to prepay for future deliveries as a temporary deal for winter gas brokered by the European Commission ends next month.
http://af.reuters.com/article/energyOilNews/idAFL5N0W10PL20150227
Dear Glenn:
Please also see this excellent piece by John Pilger:
“Why the Rise of Fascism is Again the Issue”
http://www.telesurtv.net/english/opinion/Why-the-Rise-of-Fascism-is-Again-the-Issue-20150226-0018.html
Pilger mentions Robert Parry who, surprisingly, seems to be coming out of his confusion as a long-time Obama apologist, and who has recently been very critical of the lies by Washington and the media (esp the NYTimes) re: Ukraine:
https://consortiumnews.com/2015/02/23/ready-for-nuclear-war-over-ukraine/
https://consortiumnews.com/2015/02/21/failing-tonkin-gulf-test-on-ukraine/
https://consortiumnews.com/2015/02/18/ukraine-finance-ministers-american-values/
https://consortiumnews.com/2015/02/16/president-gollums-precious-secrets/
https://consortiumnews.com/2015/02/13/the-putin-did-it-conspiracy-theory/
https://consortiumnews.com/2015/02/11/nyt-whites-out-ukraines-brown-shirts/
https://consortiumnews.com/2015/01/24/nyt-is-lost-in-its-ukraine-propaganda/
The coverage at the WSWS has also been excellent.
for example:
“The New York Times and Washington’s “propaganda bubble” on Ukraine”
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2015/01/06/time-j06.html
see more Ukraine analysis at this page: http://www.wsws.org/en/topics/country/ukraine/
The Ukraine Imbroglio and the Decline of the American Empire
http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/04/18/the-ukraine-imbroglio-and-the-decline-of-the-american-empire/
Is western strategy on Ukraine reaching a new level on the Strangelove-ometer?
-”UK Prime Minister David Cameron announced on February 24 that Britain would send military personnel to Ukraine soon to help train its army. RFE/RL’s Rikard Jozwiak spoke to Judy Dempsey, senior associate at Carnegie Europe and editor-in-chief of the blog Strategic Europe about the significance of the move.”
http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-british-troops-judy-dempsey/26869479.html
And the Americans are sending troops too:
Fox – “A battalion of around 600 American paratroopers will be heading to Ukraine next month to train national guard troops there, a Pentagon spokesman told Fox News Wednesday.
The unit heading to the war-torn country is from the U.S. Army’s 173rd Airborne Brigade Combat Team, based out of Vicenza, Italy.
The training is to take place at the Yavariv training center in the western Ukrainian city of Lviv, U.S. Army Europe Commander Lt. Gen. Ben Hodges said, according to The Associated Press.”
It’s a game of chicken…but it’s a game of chicken Obama/Cameron are playing with Russia. You know, Russia, the country of Stalingrad, the Red Army, the guys who lost millions to the Nazis…before taking the war to Berlin. And all that was before they got something called “tactical nuclear weapons”.
I understand that Obama wants to squeeze Russia, Americans never let a conflict go to waste. But perhaps the Ukraine strategy is a little bit too crazy even for the neocons. Do Americans think that they are at some point going to give Ukraine enough support, to win a land war, take an ethnic Russian territory and defeat a force that is backed by the Russian Army? Right on Russia’s border?
So why feed the violence? Russia isn’t interested in Western Ukraine. They are interested in keeping America, and its allies away from their borders. Ukraine will be divided along ethnic lines and the Eastern part will either formally form part of Russia, or will become an autonomous region of Ukraine. America sending more guns into the civil war isn’t going to change that.
The Germans and the rest of continental Europe seem to know this. And they are the ones, not the UK, not America that are suffering the cost of prolonged war on their borders. I’m not surprised that this doesn’t concern Obama’s neocons but It does seem to me to be just a little bit closer to direct American-Russian war than anything we’ve seen previously
(for example to topple the Russian backed Afghan government of the eighties, America supported what became the Taliban, but did not talk of sending western troops to fight the Russians directly)
possible scenarios: If a rocket lands on the tent of the 173rd ariborne and kills 30 American soldiers, will Obama pull his troops out? Or double down? If Russians are killed by American “advisors” will Putin tell his people that he’s letting Obama win this one or will he retaliate?
Under any scenario, can you see Russia not valuing the security of Ukraine far and above any possible cost America and the UK would try to inflict?
Great to see you write an article on Ukraine Glen.
At the very least it should silence the idiotic “Ohmidiyaaar is Glenn’s Sugar Daddy” smear artists and formerly-credible whistleblowers (and their fans).
My prediction is they will just shift to “What took you so long?” and “Why aren’t you naming Omidyar fully responsible for the Nazi takeover???!“
You people are pathetic, making excuses for an oligarchs errand boy.
Do you have a comment on the actual article? Do you agree that if the US arms the current Ukrainian government we will be giving support to its fascist elements? And is stating that conclusion – and the evidence supporting it – the same as supporting Putin, the facile conclusion the current US government has been propagating? Are you one of the manichean horde, or are you capable of seeing that these things are much more complicated than what we are being told from most mainstream media sources?
I am actually glad to see TI start writing on this. I think it long overdue myself, though I understand they might prioritize coverage of world issues differently than I.
WRT articles elsewhere about Omidyar, I don’t feel compelled to defend him at all. In fact, I am thinking that Mr. Omidyar is proving himself remarkably inept at management, and/or hiring managers. Best I can tell – and I am by no means an expert – he may have gotten involved in things and with groups that he was ill-prepared to evaluate properly, but that doesn’t make him a single-handed coup factory, as some would style it. Just an ill-advised idjit with too much money. There seem to be an alarming number of those in the world right now.
And ad hominem and a non-sequitur, all in one sentence!
We are not discussing Brian Williams here.
Disappointing attempted tar brushing of Ukraine’s defenders against Putin’s aggression.
I’m not positive of the exact timeline, but I think Putin’s aggression came after the U.S. helped support the coup.
You do know that Poroshenko is the democratically elected President? Twice IIRC. And Parliament’s vote to re-establish the 2004 Constitution was not even close – it was unanimous. Maybe the US bought one or two votes, maybe not. It certainly didn’t buy all of them.
Yanukovych acting on Putin’s orders used snipers to kill protestors and then Putin himself was responsible for attacking Crimea and Eastern Ukraine. So we had peaceful protest by Ukrainians against Putin’s sock puppet, sniper violence by Putin, peaceful impeachment and elections by Ukrainians, and then violent invasions by Putin. GG is channeling Faux News in attempting to assign equal time and equal blame to both sides here.
The original protestors and current government have support across the political spectrum from student unions on the left to neo-nazis on the right. I have no sympathy for neo-nazis but GG’s attempts to paint the whole of Ukraine with the neo-nazi tar brush is an absurd departure from his usual standard of excellence.
Mike: see John Pilger’s excellent piece:
http://johnpilger.com/articles/why-the-rise-of-fascism-is-again-the-issue
And this one by James Petras:
http://petras.lahaine.org/?p=2016
Mike: your comment indicates your poor vetting of your dubious sources.
The New York Times and Washington’s “propaganda bubble” on Ukraine
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2015/01/06/time-j06.html
from a year ago:
The geopolitical dimensions of the coup in Ukraine
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/02/27/geop-f27.html
from last November:
One year since the beginning of the crisis in Ukraine
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/11/28/pers-n28.html
From earlier this January:
NYT Still Pretends No Coup in Ukraine
https://consortiumnews.com/2015/01/06/nyt-still-pretends-no-coup-in-ukraine/
From last December:
The Liberal Idiocy on Russia/Ukraine
https://consortiumnews.com/2014/12/22/the-liberal-idiocy-on-russiaukraine/
Mike me old china me thinks you are ukrainian or a member of their newly formed Information offensive aimed at countering the devastating propoganda onslaught launched by the putin funded RT. I’m not here to try to educate you. I’ve neither the time nor the inclination. Your accusation that Putin ordered Yanucovich is absurd and has already been proven wrong.
Here’s a little background info for you:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-road-to-moscow-goes-through-kiev-how-the-protests-in-ukraine-transformed-into-a-coup-that-could-target-russia/5370479
Oh those nice peacefull student unions seem to dwindling in numbers. It seems they are fleeing the country (going to Russia) or in hiding because they don’t want to be drafted.
Putin comes off more as an opportunist than an outright aggressor. He used the US meddling in Ukraine and the grassroots protests to his gain.
Can you quantify this alleged aggression?The only aggression I’ve seen is by the Ukrainian govt. and the West.
The conflict would be over in a NY minute if Russia actually put some dogs in the fight.
A violent coup doesn’t qualify as aggression?
But supporting the will of the voters does?
“I said we should arm the (Syrian) rebels, but I admit they were allied with Al-Qaeda all along” —Robert Ford, Former US ambassador to Syria
I don’t support US involvement in Ukraine at all, but I would urge a lot of caution in defining a large-scale political movement by its fringe and extreme elements, a tactic which was frequently used to discredit the Occupy movement vis-a-vis the presence the violent anarchists in Oakland.
Or the Tea Party, which definitely has had neo-Nazi members. (True, the Tea Party sucks, and I wouldn’t be surprised if the Azov Brigade is worse, but then again, if the Russians are actually coming you probably develop greater tolerance for “Red Dawn” types real quick)
The article documents how the “fringe and extremist elements” have been at the core of both the coup and the fighting in Ukraine.
That violates the definition of “fringe”.
In Syria, the fringe is the “moderate rebels” holed up in hotels in Turkey, and the “large scale political movement” is dominated by the extremist elements.
The warning that we could easily see the same result in Ukraine is valid.
And the lack of attention to the matter by the corporate media and establishment is troubling.
To continue the comparison, in no way was Occupy at risk of being overrun by violent anarchists (who were likely hired thugs in any case).
you obviously missed the point: the neo-nazi elements are present at every level including the highest (unelected) posts. this isn’t about a “fringe” any more than ISIS and al-nusra are “fringe elements” in syria. please leave the false equivalences and lame attempts at “impartiality” to jon stewart.
The general rule of wars is that everything bad that either side says about the other is true, and nothing else. But here one side is Putin, who doesn’t seem to place a high value on being perceived as honest.
The argument that Poroshenko -> Avakov -> some members of Azov -> other members of Azov are Nazis seems like it needs some reinforcing. I mean, as of Christmas, according to the Post ( http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/fleeing-their-countrys-civil-war-ukrainian-jews-head-for-israel/2014/12/24/f79fb866-8619-11e4-b9b7-b8632ae73d25_story.html ) just 5000 of Ukraine’s 200,000 Jews had departed for Israel, despite the merits of leaving a war/revolution zone, organizations paying for resettlement flights, and a streamlined and guaranteed citizenship process in Israel. True, we know from history that Jews have been terribly wrong about such things before… but I need more convincing.
they’re also being told to flee the war-torn hellscapes of france and denmark. i just hope they make it before the parisian hipster gestapo checks their papers.
a good term to keep in mind when it comes to israel: “pre-traumatic stress disorder”.
Hey,they warn that an NFL stadium in LA? would be a terrorist target.Sheesh,what makes LA more dangerous than say DC?Illegal immigrants?My God,the absolute pathetic state of America.Scared much?
Such an appropriate name…Clapper. It seems that US foreign policy is SUFFERING from the clap.
hunnee tish wun verjum uv teh klap taht know amunt uv peneshillium wil get rid uv don u no.
To a Sufi Muslim, a true “jihadi” is someone who strives to groom his/her self so that it moves away from its lower tendencies, like anger, selfishness, arrogance, vengeance, pride, lust for power, control, revenge and resources, hatred, etc., so that the self reflects the higher qualities, such as forgiveness, humility, selflessness, peace, love, detachment from power, control and resources, doing unto others what one would want done unto oneself, sharing resources, respect for human life, not seeing any “otherness”, generosity, etc.
We live in the post-religion age, and this age’s requirement is for all religious and non-religious people of every walk of life to focus on self purification, aka strive for the higher self/consciousness, using whatever methods works for them.
this is one of the few cases where the usually banal term “terrorist” applies. as you said, “jihad” is not what the west constantly claims it to be. i’d also take issue with “fundamentalist” but that’s a whole other kettle of fish.
What does the word “terrorists” even mean anymore? To replace “jihad” with “terrorists” would also imply that there’s something fundamentally Muslim about terrorism.
The Intercept is finally talking about Ukraine, that’s very welcomed !
I would also recommend reading Robert Parry https://consortiumnews.com/tag/robert-parry/ to counter the one sided mainstream media reports on this conflict.
And this one from John Pilger http://johnpilger.com/articles/why-the-rise-of-fascism-is-again-the-issue
People need to boycott the Lies Media like CNN, FOX, NBC, CBS, BBC, CBC, NPR, ABC, SKY, etc. Make them pay for their lies by making them lose on advertising dollars. As long as they get viewers, they have incentive to lie. An easy way to begin is to not read anything from an agency with a three-letter acronym like the ones listed above. They all know that a lie that is told enough times becomes the truth; that’s at the heart of propaganda.