The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia executed Shiite Muslim cleric Nimr al-Nimr on Saturday. Hours later, Iranian protestors set fire to the Saudi embassy in Tehran. On Sunday, the Saudi government, which considers itself the guardian of Sunni Islam, cut diplomatic ties with Iran, which is a Shiite Muslim theocracy.
To explain what’s going on, the New York Times provided a primer on the difference between Sunni and Shiite Islam, informing us that “a schism emerged after the death of the Prophet Muhammad in 632” — i.e., 1,383 years ago.
But to the degree that the current crisis has anything to do with religion, it’s much less about whether Abu Bakr or Ali was Muhammad’s rightful successor and much more about who’s going to control something more concrete right now: oil.
In fact, much of the conflict can be explained by a fascinating map created by M.R. Izady, a cartographer and adjunct master professor at the U.S. Air Force Special Operations School/Joint Special Operations University in Florida.
What the map shows is that, due to a peculiar correlation of religious history and anaerobic decomposition of plankton, almost all the Persian Gulf’s fossil fuels are located underneath Shiites. This is true even in Sunni Saudi Arabia, where the major oil fields are in the Eastern Province, which has a majority Shiite population.
As a result, one of the Saudi royal family’s deepest fears is that one day Saudi Shiites will secede, with their oil, and ally with Shiite Iran.
This fear has only grown since the 2003 U.S. invasion of Iraq overturned Saddam Hussein’s minority Sunni regime, and empowered the pro-Iranian Shiite majority. Nimr himself said in 2009 that Saudi Shiites would call for secession if the Saudi government didn’t improve its treatment of them.
The map shows religious populations in the Middle East and proven developed oil and gas reserves. Click to view the full map of the wider region. The dark green areas are predominantly Shiite; light green predominantly Sunni; and purple predominantly Wahhabi/Salafi, a branch of Sunnis. The black and red areas represent oil and gas deposits, respectively.
Source: Dr. Michael Izady at Columbia University, Gulf2000, New York
Nimr’s execution can be partly explained by the Saudis’ desperation to stamp out any sign of independent thinking among the country’s Shiites.
The same tension explains why Saudi Arabia helped Bahrain, an oil-rich, majority-Shiite country ruled by a Sunni monarchy, crush its version of the Arab Spring in 2011.
Similar calculations were behind George H.W. Bush’s decision to stand by while Saddam Hussein put down an insurrection by Iraqi Shiites at the end of the Gulf War. As New York Times columnist Thomas Friedman explained at the time, Saddam had “held Iraq together, much to the satisfaction of the American allies Turkey and Saudi Arabia.”
Of course, it’s too simple to say that everything happening between Saudis and Iranians can be traced back to oil. Disdain and even hate for Shiites seem to be part of the DNA of Saudi Arabia’s peculiarly sectarian and belligerent version of Islam. In 1802, 136 years before oil was discovered in Saudi Arabia, the ideological predecessors to the modern Saudi state sacked Karbala, a city now in present-day Iraq and holy to Shiites. The attackers massacred thousands and plundered the tomb of Husayn ibn Ali, one of the most important figures in Shiite Islam.
Without fossil fuels, however, this sectarianism toward Shiites would likely be less intense today. And it would definitely be less well-financed. Winston Churchill once described Iran’s oil – which the U.K. was busy stealing at the time — as “a prize from fairyland far beyond our brightest hopes.”
Churchill was right, but didn’t realize that this was the kind of fairytale whose treasures carry a terrible curse.
Additional reporting: Murtaza Hussain
I met Iranians while in training in the usaf in 77, they seemed like nice people. the war mongering militarists and the industrial polluters are the real killers, I wish the news media could do more for promoting peace.
This map is garbage an is meant to over emphasize the size and power of the Shiites and to de-emphasize Sunnis. Garbage map with a garbage article.
The Intercept’s stories on the Middle East are generated by writers unwittingly using Iranian propaganda as fact.
The writers both The Intercept and the New York forget Iran’s similar intentions. Oil in Iranian occupied controversial Arab-Shiite province ‘Khuzestan’ has faced similar treatment from Iran’s agencies, revolutionary guards etc; maltreating and subjugating the population to extract oil. The Intercept has become the mouthpiece of Iran.
(NOTE: not fan of Saudi either)
That is ridiculous. More so the mouthpiece against power, no? While this isn’t critical of Iran, it’s safe to say that nobody on this staff is favorable towards the Iranian regime. And clearly the principle role of Western journalists should be to criticise domestic power and its alliesm
Moreover, the evil “Great Game” of British geopolitics has captured the mindless Anglophilic “elites” in America. It is also intended to tear Russia apart. The right wing neocons and left wing humanitarian interventionist lunatics alike are embracing and courting a nuclear holocaust. See the clash of civilization crowd for more insanity.
The information you mentioned full of shits and most of them wrong.
You know nothing about how big is Shia in SA and what is happening there
Stability of Saudi Arabia is key to peace in middle east.
Shias of eastern province are very peaceful but Iranians using them.
Iran against the royal family, they call it not islamic.
The Shias of Saudi Arabia must be treated fairly or they will go against royalty.
Oil demand will definitely grow up because of it’s growing demand in Indian sub continent and China.
I’ m sorry – but a war with Saudi Arabia would be dangerous for Iran and Iran would be obliterated by the US may be even the so called NATO forces.
Mr. Schwarz
“…….What the map shows is that, due to a peculiar correlation of religious history and anaerobic decomposition of plankton, almost all the Persian Gulf’s fossil fuels are located underneath Shiites. This is true even in Sunni Saudi Arabia, where the major oil fields are in the Eastern Province, which has a majority Shiite population……one of the Saudi royal family’s deepest fears is that one day Saudi Shiites will secede, with their oil, and ally with Shiite Iran……”
Saudi Arabia is hardly the same situation as Iraq where Shiites represented the majority population. Shiites only constitute about 10-15% of the population of Saudi Arabia and the chances of the Shia population successfully seceding are about the same as the King of Saudi Arabia becoming a Catholic.
Shiites will continue to be second class citizens in Saudi Arabia for the foreseeable future. Bahrain is a different story, however, and that situation could become explosive in the future.
I learned more from this article than you could from watching hours of TV news coverage of Iran and SA relations. Made watching this interview pretty funny https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmRBnYfx5Ck
….If this section of eastern Saudi Arabia were to break away, the Saudi royals would just be some broke 80-year-olds with nothing left but a lot of beard dye and Viagra prescriptions…..
It’s rare to have a chuckle when reading about oil, religion and politics – this comment was priceless!
Jonathan! This is your Auntie Maud! Now some of your commenters are smutty and rude, but you are a qualified Journalist and I expect better from you.
Please tell those Saudi sheiks that I always found Omar Sharif to be very handsome even with grey hair and Imran Khan will always be gorgeous, if a little bit Mick Jagger-ish now.
But I think it is less to do with Shia Islam, and more to do with favouring Americans over Russians and letting the Americans artificially force the price of oil up whilst also significantly increasing supply to make their own fracking operations profitable, to both the financial and allied military benefit of those countries whose oil-rich regimes they protect. The long-term aim of America seems to be to discredit Russia as a political and a military power, and also reclaim lots of hard cash from China from exporting oil to there. That Saudi get to screw over Shia Islam is a bonus, and allows the Saudis to export their own brand of Islam to a world that has seen huge shifts in the West towards atheism.
I just wish it was more exciting as just plain old oil greediness as usual, as the Saudis and the Arabian Peninsula as a whole just bores me utterly shitless. Even Islam – a religion of over a billion people – just ends up as, er, oh dear, fucking Saudi bullshit again.
But what does your Aunt Maud know?
Well, this is an interesting article, but there really have been some fundamental changes in the global energy economy, which are upending the 1970’s era oil-primacy theories about the Middle East. Instability and military tension in the Middle East is supposed to boost prices, for example – but due to falling demand for fossil fuels due to renewables and increased efficiency, this has not happened. Both Iran and Saudi Arabia are desperate for more oil income, but their 20th century resource extraction model is doomed to failure in the 21st century – so as Iran opens up to oil extraction, prices fall even further. Revenues fall in both countries, and Saudis can no longer afford mega-weapons purchases from the US and Britain, nor can they afford to keep financing global Wahhabi-Salafist ideology, nor support their circle of allies – Turkey, Egypt, other Gulf Arab dictatorships, leading to popular calls for replacement of the medieval monarchy by a parliamentary democracy. Note that the statements by the Iranian PM comparing the Saudi beheadings to ISIS beheadings, and the ‘removal from power of the royal family’ line, are probably the main factor in the fairly rabid Saudi response to the Iranian response the beheading. But will any of this imperil US military sales to Saudi Arabia, such as Raytheon’s $2 billion Patriot missile deal with the Saudis? Will U.S. media outlets from NPR to FOX continue to ignore Saudi use of American weapons against civilians in Yemen, which is supposedly enough to get ones end-user certificates revoked, according to US law? Or will the Saudis simply run out of money to buy such weapons systems?
In the long run, the Middle East will be as important to “US global interests” as say, Botswana is today, and their sour heavy crude oil will be as important an energy source as camel dung and whale oil once were.
“. . . due to falling demand for fossil fuels due to renewables . . .”
The US Energy Information Administration estimates that about 11% of world energy production is by renewable sources (about half of that relying upon old-fashioned hydropower with little chance of expansion — good new dam sites are hard to find) and predicts that the percentage will increase to about 15% by 2040.
“. . . and increased efficiency . . .”
Efficiency does not reduce consumption; it increases it. William Stanley Jevons established this unfortunate reality in 1865 and it is probably the most widely understood and agreed-upon truths in environmental economics. The rest of the world just cluelessly and happily ignores it.
Ignorance really is bliss — for a while.
Efficiency does not reduce consumption? You want to light your home; and efficient LED bulb uses perhaps 15% as much energy as an equal amount of light from an incandescent bulb; so for the same amount of light, you use 85% less energy.
If you own a vehicle that gets 100 mpg, vs an SUV that gets 20 mpg, then for traveling the same distance you use 80% less fuel. How would the global oil price react to an 80% drop in demand for transportation fuel?
Efficiency increases in lighting, heating, transportation etc. clearly reduce energy consumption, making it much easier for renewables to meet global energy demand.
America is sitting on huge oil reserves that it can only obtain profitably by forcing up the price and/or by fracking it in a ridiculously environmentally unfriendly way with no built-in costs for proper set up, fair land purchases and slices of the profits, safety considerations, legal challenges and payouts, and clean up during and afterwards.
Already rich but always even greedier people in America want to make more money as America is slipping down the rankings and will soon become a Spanish-Speaking Third World hell hole prowled by machine gun toting, drug dealing white-supremacist police gangs. Oh, hold on, that bit’s already happened. Ok, will soon become like a whole Prison Nation, where only the rich elite, now living in Vietnam and married to hot little Asian sexpots (or a bunch of ladyboys if you have a ginger toupee and run a beauty pageant and have a name that rhymes with Damned Old Racist Grump) as the environment back in the States is utterly toxic from the fracking, get to vote for themselves to be even richer whilst the Prison Gangs undercut Chinese labour to make designer wallets and nicknacks for the Vietnamese tourist industry.
Something like that. I am sure it will be fine in the end. Most Americans seem utterly unconcerned anyway.
Just for kicks Jon……..just to let your readers and Glenn know how responsive your really are, can you tell everyone here what the CIRCLE represents on the map near the Straits of Hormuz…? Its a “Jeapardy” daily double question.
We know you can “ask” a question………cue some “time” music.
Cheerz……
Sorry to spoil your question, but you got me curious and once having looked it up… well, this is a magazine that celebrates people who can’t keep their mouths shut. (Written by those who do, alas, but that’s another issue)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Musa
Apparently the Iranians and UAE have a longstanding dispute over it. It seems odd that the boundary of the disputed area would be agreed on as a big circle though… I wonder if the water borders on these map are *agreed* borders or just someone’s guess?
My, the Saudi Arabian and Iranian navies are going to have a lot of work to do in coming months.
Hmm……what Jon Schwartz fails to relay in his article is the fact that a map such as this has been around for a long time. Dare to wonder what information an oil company deems “confidential”..? What Jon should be asking is why General Schwarzkopf did not have a map like this to stand in front of before the first invasion of Iraq for the whole world to see..? Answer: He did. What is really dishonest is the historical facts of the Persian economic control via the SILK ROAD. Dare to wonder if Alexander the “Great” ask himself just come those Persians were so wealthy to have hanging gardens in the middle of a squalid desert? The discovery of OIL just made the Persian vs. Arab divide more personal than ever had been. Kings in opposing countries always divide their citizenry by blaming each other for their countries problems. Priests and Imams historically have done the same. …..and so it seems that the Intercept is “dripping” the same tactics to its readers via this type of article as an example. Dare to wonder what this map really reveals that is not divulged by Jon in this article…? Maybe Jon should pick up the phone and ask someone at Caterpillar if they have a map of GPS locations for all their Heavy Equipment positions to overlay on this map? …or a fine rookie sitting at a Google Earth Server admin terminal.
interesting that you failed to call Saudi Arabia a Sunni Muslim Theocracy…
There is no oil where shiits live in Saudi Arabia. Actually the eastern region was historically ruled by the bani Khaled tribe historically, who are Sunnis.
emphasis on “historically” enough?
America was also historically occupied and managed by the Native Americans. This article addresses the current state. Not who was historically there first hundreds of years ago.
If terrorism were to be accepted as global menace, which way should American, EU play out? More specifically, will world be safer if section of eastern Saudi Arabia were to break away?
Can world powers work honestly for the safety of the world, rather play for their parochial short-term aims?
https://theintercept.com/2015/09/11/today-14th-anniversary-enormous-opportunity/
Adel al Jubeir — it appears Sia oil will flood the world and endanger the wealthy. Solar and nuclear will outlive oil. Will KSA solar dominate Iranian nuclear?
Great work, Jon & Murtaza! And brilliant cartography by Dr. Izady!
This is a map, with a clear textual summary and explanation, that is worth volumes of words.
Bravo!
The U.S. and allied militaries dominating massive areas of the globe for others’ oil haven’t even begun retooling for a future without petroleum, Jon, so nothing will change anytime soon. Those militaries currently secure the economic power of the West’s top predatory capitalists, which through corruption now own their respective governments’ justice systems. And in turn, regardless of whatever truly criminal brute-force means are used providing access to foreign natural resources, those militaries and their many war crime leaders now enjoy the same above-anyone’s-law status those criminal manipulators of world markets somehow possess. History’s rarely seen crime so organized.
They’re still “greasing” the slide, after filling the playground with broken-glass WMD.
Sometimes the situation over in the ME is a bit hard to discern the various players and each agenda adhered to. I do believe The US wants the oil and will keep whomever in power with a direct line to the oil. The fact that the US is now able to get domestic oil has lessened some of the dependence on foreign oil. So now we need to assess the need and expense to keep these tinpot kingdoms in power. If indeed the case, the benefits need careful approach to keep from inflaming the already growing sectarian violence in the region. I find the US is left with a growing concern of our allies and who will inherit the almighty US dollar.
“The fact that the US is now able to get domestic oil has lessened some of the dependence on foreign oil.”
You’ve been had (along with most of the population of the world. The shale oil and gas “boom” was, in fact, a bubble, and it’s been bursting for some time, now.
THE U.S. IS COUNTING ON A LONG-TERM ABUNDANCE OF OIL & NATURAL GAS: But what if the boom is just a bubble?
And, from the inimitable (and very provocative) James Howard Kunstler:
More
Alaska Destroys Peak Oil Theory – Newly Discovered Oil Reserve: Equivalent To 30% World’s Supply 83 Billion Barrels
http://politicalvelcraft.org/2010/10/04/sarah-palins-alaska-newly-discovered-oil-reserve-equivalent-to-30-worlds-supply-83-billion-barrels/
That’s pretty funny — and pathetically ignorant.
The page you link to (on a wacko site with sections on “False Flags”; “Chemtrails”; “Arrest Obama”; a near-word-salad piece that appears to argue against evolution; etc.) is loaded with extensive quotes from Sarah Palin, a bunch of nonsense about “abiotic” oil, and a link to a USGS page where the word “oil” does not appear (except in a link to a USGS Oil Spill Response site).
Granted, there is a link on the USGS page to a story about the “first ever” geological map of Alaska but, alas ;^) , the word oil doesn’t appear on that page, either.
Appropriate username.
Well, the point is that this oil is too expensive to profitably produce, due to falling global oil demand – demand destruction will only increase in the future, with highly efficient vehicles, electric vehicles, etc. undercutting transportation fuel demand. Likewise in natural gas – Iran is eager to compete with Qatar as a majority supplier of natural gas to Europe, so further price reductions in gas are in the works. The more Europe moves to wind and solar for electricity generation, the more demand for gas falls – so all expensive high-cost fossil fuel extraction projects are now getting chopped. The oil-gas financial press does talk about this, though they shy away from mentioning renewables or climate change as a factor in demand destruction:
“If Iran does open up – and provoke Qatar to lift its moratorium in response – then LNG prices will fall even further, despite forecasts that demand will increase by 5pc annually through to 2025. Given the market’s obsession with the impact of weaker crude prices on international oil companies, it is perhaps gas and Iran’s ambitions to supply LNG which are a bigger worry. ”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/energy/oilandgas/11920043/Andrew-Critchlow-Iran-to-trigger-natural-gas-race-with-Qatar-in-Persian-Gulf.html
The economy actually *restored itself* from the bankers’ machinations while oil was expensive. Oil *has* to be expensive, in order for the renewable industries our planet needs to have a chance. But what is most important is that people have to *know* that oil is and will be expensive, but not too expensive, for decades to come, so that when they decide whether to buy solar panels or an oil burner, they make a confident decision.
In order to do that, we should levy a high tariff on both the import and the export of fossil fuels. That’s not free trade, no, but it is a vitally needed military measure, one that costs fewer lives and less money than invading Middle Eastern countries. We should work out a deal with Canada, maybe Mexico, to create a North American juche in regard to these carbon emitting fuels, and have a plan from the outset for the day we stop burning them for fuel.
Coal and gas are in competition with renewables.
Oil isn’t.
Virtually no-one uses oil for electricity.
And oil won’t ever be cheap enough to compete with electricity as a transport fuel.
“The economy actually *restored itself* from the bankers’ machinations while oil was expensive.”
The only “restoration” has been for the benefit of the 0.1% and their high-level shills and servants. The real economy and the fate of the masses continues to be dismal and to deteriorate.
“Oil *has* to be expensive, in order for the renewable industries our planet needs to have a chance.”
Well, at some point, not soon, oil will have to be expensive (most likely, it will be rationed; worldwide military empire and a homeland police state need a lot of gas) because we are well past the point of affordable oil reserves. What’s left is in deep water; tight formations, like shale, that are expensive and dangerous to develop and have this alarming tendency to deplete very rapidly; trapped in tar sands that are an economic and environmental disaster, etc.
But that expensive oil is some way into the future, now, because, as Jim K says, $100bbl oil destroys the real economy and less-than-$100bbl oil destroys the oil industry.
As for renewables, we should do everything we can to develop them sensibly, but: There is NO chance that they will ever provide the cornucopia of cheap energy that the relatively-brief fossil fuel glut (now sliding to a long, painful halt).
Give up any dreams you may have of an electric car for every urban garage and learn to open cans with human power, again. The party is ending.
Wnt, if you do that, your economy will be destroyed because your production will be much more expensive. See how it goes in western europe now.
The real solution is to tax pollution at the consumption stage.. so if you buy a good produced in a factory with high pollution levels (CO2 in the air, mercury in water, ect…), then the taxes will be very high. THis will make sure the industry from countries taking these measure won’t be negatively affected.
It also makes sense that the person buying the polluting good is the real responsible – and not the producer.
This is a common misunderstanding: “Oil *has* to be expensive, in order for the renewable industries our planet needs to have a chance.”
As demand for fossil fuels falls, prices naturally fall. However, production costs for fossil fuels do not fall! That’s the key point. Production costs for renewables, on the other hand, continue to fall, due to economies of scale, improved technology, and more efficient final products (PV panels and wind turbines). Consumers and countries who switch to renewables don’t switch back, any more than cell phone users switch back to landlines, or computer users switch by to manual typewriters – and so, the fossil fuel market declines until demand is so low that it can’t afford to meet the cost of producing new fossil fuels.
Of course, helping this along by instituting high tariffs on fossil fuel trading (and using that money as a feed-in tariff to promote expanded renewable power generation) is the kind of forward-looking government policy that any rational person would support.
Been saying this for a lot of years around here. The smart move for the West, and America, would be to dump their support (military and economic) for the Sunni fanatics they’ve been backing for so long and engage in sustained rapprochement with Iran.
It has been known for a long time that Iran has the much greater long term reserves of oil and natural gas. And just as important, when America and the West aren’t too busy fucking over the Iranians, demonizing them and meddling in their internal affairs, that Persians are much closer culturally to the West than the backward monarchical misogynist fuckstains in Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, UAE and Oman.
But for the relatively, at present, easily brought to market oil those four possess, and the fact America has historically allied with the Saudis and the other three as a bulwark against the US’s perceived boogieman of communism/socialism, there is absolutely not one single positive thing that can be attributed in modern history to those backward monarchical fuckstains (unless you are a bought and paid for American politician who depends on them for dark/soft campaign money).
America and the West could flip the whole fucking script of world history by rapprochement with Iran and hanging those fuckstain Wahhabi nutbags out to dry. They’d be nothing less than a historical footnote in under a generation.
Then the only other major problem left in the world, with Iran as an ally of the West with free trade agreements in place is–you guessed it–the fundamentalist douche bags running the show presently in Israel. Force them to make peace with Palestine even if it means Palestine can never field its own military, and force Israel to give back some of the land it is squatting on and allow Palestinians the right of return.
Last but not least see if you can’t get India and Pakistan to play a little nicer with each other by coming to some compromised resolution re: Kashmir.
Oh yeah, and then convince Turkey, Iran, Iraq and Syria to let their Kurds be autonomous to one degree or another and self-governing if not necessarily forcing them to officially cede territory from each to the Kurds for an independent UN recognized state of Kurdistan. Which isn’t likely to happen, although it should, at least not without a ridiculous amount of bloodshed.
Nothing “more” than a historical footnote, not nothing “less”.
You make way too much sense.
Lol
Naive or ignorant? Which one are you? As opposed to the Sunnis monarchs Iran is run by a bunch of opened minded leaders who are at least willing to let their citizens accept the West culture. What makes you think Iranian leaders want rapprochement? Are you aware those leaders are willing to put their citizens in jail for dancing Western songs?
While you may be correct about the current Iranian government, that could change in the future if Iranians generally have anything to do with it. The same may not apply to Saudi Arabia, where dissent is more strongly put down. The Wahhabists would have to go, in addition to the Al-Sauds and that entails a wholesale clean-out.
Iranians are far more westernised than their Saudi counterparts. With a population of around 80 million, compared to Saudi Arabia’s 29 million, Iran also comprises a more lucrative market. Think also about foreign workers – take them out of Saudi Arabia and the place would grind to a halt in five minutes – the Saudis are basically lazy (they even hire foreign armies to fight for them – viz the Colombians in Yemen!), whereas Iranians are more industrious.
Neither. Are you aware that Saudi Arabia just mass beheaded 47 people. And regularly does so for things like “witchcraft” or criticizing the Wahhabi Monarchs?
Are you aware that those 7 young adults who were arrested in Iran got suspended sentences?
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2014/09/iran-happy-dancers-sentenced-jail-and-flogging-flagrant-assault-freedom-expression/
Here’s the deal–one of my resolutions for the new year is to try and refrain from denigrating know-nothing morons like you. My guess is I won’t be very successful sticking to that when “teh stoooopid” is so strong in people like you.
Iran is changing fast given how young and well-educated their population is becoming. That you don’t know that doesn’t surprise me in the slightest.
http://www.today.com/news/beyond-veil-lives-women-iran-2D80555320
You read Amnesty International Report? Me too.
This is what Amnesty said about Iran in July 2015:
“Iran’s ‘staggering’ execution spree: nearly 700 put to death in just over six months”
“Iran’s staggering execution toll for the first half of this year paints a sinister picture of the machinery of the state carrying out premeditated, judicially-sanctioned killings on a mass scale,” said Said Boumedouha, Deputy Director of Amnesty International’s Middle East and North Africa Programme.
“death sentences in Iran are particularly disturbing because they are invariably imposed by courts that are completely lacking in independence and impartiality. They are imposed either for vaguely worded or overly broad offences, or acts that should not be criminalized at all, let alone attract the death penalty. Trials in Iran are deeply flawed, detainees are often denied access to lawyers in the investigative stage, and there are inadequate procedures for appeal, pardon and commutation.”
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/07/irans-staggering-execution-spree/
“Are you aware that those 7 young adults who were arrested in Iran got suspended sentences?”
Yes, so? Are you aware that they were still considered criminals under Iranian laws. Take their lawyers’ words:
http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/iran-happy-dancers-sentenced-91-lashes-20140919
“For example, in Saudi Arabia, women are not allowed to drive, get a university education or hold public office.”
The largest university for women in the world is in Saudi Arabia.
http://www.pnu.edu.sa/en/Pages/default.aspx
Women got elected in public offices in Saudi Arabia
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/12/13/world/first-women-elected-to-office-in-saudi-arabia/
“Also, while Iranian women must cover their hair, they do not have to cover their faces.”
Look at the pictures of female students at the King Abdullah University of Science and technology and let me know whether their faces are covered.
Let’s review your case. I wondered whether you were naive or ignorant because you seem not to know what is going on in Iran or Saudi Arabia. You replied with a bunch of inaccurate statements.
Would you at least agree that it was stupid of you not to do your research before you called me “know nothing moron”.?
Now that I prove that you really do not know what is going in Saudi Arabia and Iran I can confidently say that you are an IGNORANT.
The bottom line is that Saudi Arabia and Iran are not that different. They are both run by tyrants. Greenwald and his supporters usually follow the strategy of ignoring tyrants who are against the US while pinpointing abuses from tyrants who support the US. Now it is getting worse because it seems (like you do) they are even presenting a completely inaccurate pictures of those tyrants.
@ Lola
Well let’s review your case.
1) You believe there is equivalence between Iran and Saudi Arabia because Saudia Arabia has the largest all-women’s university (and only began permitting women to be educated in 1960 and first co-educational college in 2009) and where it is the law that all women must have male guardians who can grant or deny a woman’s request to even enroll in college, and where upon graduation allowed to generally work only in capacities in which they can serve women exclusively, with isolated exceptions having only permitted its first woman lawyer and policeman in 2013;
2) That there is some equivalence between Iran and Saudi Arabia because Saudi women can expose their faces at a woman’s only college but when in public where hijab an abaya, and niqab;
3) That there is some equivalence between Iran and Saudi Arabia because in 2015, by royal decree not law, women were for the first time allowed to even vote in municipal elections or as of 2013 by royal decree the King appointed 30 women to the Shura Council (but they are segregated and can’t mix with their male colleagues).
4) That there is some equivalence between Iran and Saudi Arabia because Iran puts to death more people than Saudi Arabia under a flawed system–no who else puts people to death legally under a “flawed system”–the USA which of course wasn’t my point.
I’ll concede an error about women now being able to obtain a university education recently and subsequently being able to work, with few notable exceptions, in capacities that cater strictly to other women.
As far as who is IGNORANT about the meaningful qualitative differences between life in Iran vs. Saudi Arabia, particularly for women, I let others decide who’s points were more relevant yours or mine.
It is funny how you react when you got caught in your stupidity.
The USA lol lol lol The Amnesty report you shared and the one I shared had nothing to do with Switzerland, Finland or the USA. Focus!!
And you are still messing up:
“That there is some equivalence between Iran and Saudi Arabia because Saudi women can expose their faces at a woman’s only college but when in public where hijab an abaya, and niqab;”
NO. They do not have to wear the niqab in public. Ask any expats who have been there.
“As far as who is IGNORANT about the meaningful qualitative differences between life in Iran vs. Saudi Arabia, particularly for women, I let others decide who’s points were more relevant yours or mine.”
I did not say life is better for women in Saudi Arabia as opposed to Iran. This is your pathetic tactic to run away when you get caught in your stupidity. I say it again. Both countries are run by tyrants. Both countries place women below men under their laws. Basic freedom is strictly muzzled in both countries. But like Greenwald, you are attempting to hide the tyranny in Iran because the Iranian tyrant considers the US the enemy while the Saudi tyrant does not.
SA is a very strong country and does not need America or any other country to back it. SA will dominate not only the ME but far beyond. After all, there was a reason why Obama kissed the kings hand.
Garbage.
SA needs to sell oil. Or sand.
And Ghawar is dying.
Lol. Good laugh to start out my day. Thank you!
@ LoveWahab
Good. Then you’d be just fine if America totally severed ties with your country (economically, politically and militarily) and its revanchist backwards Monarchs? And then we’d find out definitively how strong a country you are, right?
What I can say unequivocally is that America doesn’t need any alliance with Saudi Arabia for any reason whatsoever. And while America’s governing elites may be bought and paid for stooges of your backwards Monarchs, no regular self-respecting American citizen would ever bow to your backwards monarchs or kiss their hand. For any reason. Nor would we set foot in your backward nation even if you paid us. Because we aren’t the “subjects” of your revanchist Monarchs.
“Then you’d be just fine if America totally severed ties with your country (economically, politically and militarily) and its revanchist backwards Monarchs? And then we’d find out definitively how strong a country you are, right?”
America does not GIVE money nor weapons to Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia has enough money and it BUYS military equipment from whomever it wants. Saudi Arabia main trade is NOT with the US, but with Asian countries. The monarch family has been in power BEFORE the US independence.
Prove that those statements are factually incorrect. If you cannot, then tell us how severing ties with a wealthy government that does not have that much trade with us would change their policies? North Korea got even worse!
“no regular self-respecting American citizen….
“For any reason. Nor would we set foot in your backward nation even if you paid us.”
The thousands of American doctors, teachers, engineers..who are in Saudi Arabia are not self-respecting? Do you understand that an American doctor in Saudi Arabia is not saving the King who goes to the UK or the USA for treatment? That doctor is saving the life of a regular Saudis.
The school an American engineer builds in Saudi Arabia is not for the King’s family. They usually send their kids to Europe or America to study. That school is for the regular Saudis.
You still do not think it is fair to call you IGNORANT?
@Lola Ah, so you are a Saudi shill, along with your pal @LoveWahab up there. So, like, do you guys get trained secretly in Israel or do you have your own Internet Shill Institute in SA? Or perhaps you are just a “useful idiot”?
(Kneejerk defenders of the Saudi monarchy pop up in comment sections everywhere to defend their glorious kingdom against perceived slights.)
Yup. Zactly.
What RR said.
exactly that’s why it is so important to reduce our dependence on oil and increase our resource and energy efficiency. And of course reduce – reuse – recycle. And go full power into renewable energy sources like solar, wind, manure. And if you are still pumping oil don’t just burn the gas because you can.
If all the treadmills in all the gyms would be issued with a generator how many power plants could we shut down?
“If all the treadmills in all the gyms would be issued with a generator how many power plants could we shut down?”
Damned few.
In the NYT “primer”, Harney states that “Because of the different paths the two sects took, Sunnis emphasize God’s power in the material world, sometimes including the public and political realm, while Shiites value in martyrdom and sacrifice.” Is there any proof to the claim that Shiites value in martyrdom and sacrifice (as suggested by the author), or are we just supposed to believe it as the largest Shia country is our latest flavor of the month?
“Look what we’ve won!”
The Safavid dynasty was founded about 1501 by Sh?h Ism?il I when Sunnis where the majority of today’s Iran and shah Ism?il I wiped them out like today’s Iranians want to do with the west ,Israel ,Sunnis etc ,get your facts straight Jon since you like to dig up bones .
“If this section of eastern Saudi Arabia were to break away, the Saudi royals would just be some broke 80-year-olds with nothing left but a lot of beard dye and Viagra prescriptions.”
My favorite line of this article lol. Also, I hope to see this in my lifetime.
Keep dreaming. SA is here to stay.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/new-abuse-allegations-against-saudi-prince-a6707186.html
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/oct/27/saudi-arabia-prince-american-women-sexual-assault-beverly-hills
Yea OK……..
http://nypost.com/2015/10/28/saudi-prince-busted-with-two-tons-of-isis-drug-and-cocaine-on-his-private-plane-officials/
By their own laws they won’t last…..
This is an important detail to the issue, but it still boils down to sectarian conflict. The only reason the Saudis are worried about the oil rich provinces succeeding and allying with Iran is because of the conflict between Sunnis and Shi’ites.
No, dumbass. Oil and money are the driving forces. The “conflict between Sunnis and Shi’ites” is more a conflict between Salfists/Wahhabists and Shias. The former is a death cult similar to ISIS (that also happens to love capitalism) that would like nothing more than to see thr genocide of Shias, which they frequently make clear.
The Wahabbi lunatics in Saudi Arabia are disgusting, old, greedy bastards who keep most of their people in poverty while they put the oil profits in their own pockets. They also spread their poisonous, violent ideology all over the MENA region via madrasas.
The Saud family would be nothing without their oil. Once that goes, it would be their heads that would roll.
You mean like Shah Ismail did when he destroyed ,raped,killed,evicted,conveted the majority Sunnis of today’s Iran to shia Islam , history repeats its self but people are to dumb to realize .The greatest Sunnis scholars that Wahhabis respect came out of Persia until the year 1500 when Mr.Shah Ismail I – put and end to them and there followers .Iran is been around for 30 years and is already wanting to wipe out people from the planet but at the end the people of Iran will wake up and wipe out the government that wiped out there Sunni ancestors.Peace
Iran has been around for 3000 years. We Iranians have rich history, culture and leaders. Levant and Arabic States in the PERSIAN GULF, (not Arabic Gulf), are all artificial states. The Arabs history is taking credit for Greek Byzantine and Persian Sassanid works of art and science, Islamic Golden Age was done by PERSIANS and other Iranians, not Arabs. Shah Ismaili founded Glorious Iranian Empire of Safawiya Iran and began modern Persian history. Learn history and facts Arab.
“The Saud family would be nothing without their oil. Once that goes, it would be their heads that would roll.”
The Saud family has been in a position of power in Saudi Arabia since 1744. Oil was discovered a few years before WWII in Saudi Arabia. Shias and Sunnis have been killing each other hundreds of years before the discovery of oil. These are basic historical facts. Are you really that ignorant or making a fool of yourself is just a past time?
Riiight. And Western “interest” in the region still boils down to protecting freedom and democracy.
Liberal Values = Jihadi Values. Equal parts euphemism for naked material interest. But the former is far more expansionary and violent, than the latter. And liberals, civilized western capitalists, psychologically project this imbalance, writ large, on the latter.
Funny that so many of those “liberals” call themselves conservatives. I guess that’s part of the problem with labels…
It’s not either/or. Sectarianism provides the identity and ideology to each of the parties battling for power. And especially in where it is possible to recruit young, passionate people as foot soldiers, the ideology must be worked with. Does anyone really think that purely theological conflicts erupt into massive violence?
Very good. Thanks.
“Disdain and even hate for Shiites seems to be part of the DNA of Saudi Arabia’s peculiarly sectarian and belligerent version of Islam.”
TI journalism to its finest. The peaceful Iranians Shias are hated by the belligerent Saudi Sunnis. Do you guys spend a long time thinking about how you would portray US allies as monsters and US enemies as angels? Or maybe in this particular case you are just an uninformed journalist who has no idea that Iran has backed violent Shia militias in Iraq responsible for the death of hundreds of Sunnis. I wonder what happened to the Iranians’ DNA that pushed them into performing such violent acts!
Lol shocker. Lola, the Zionist apologist of Israeli terrorism is a fan of the Saudis. You apologize for the most brutal violence carried out by the West & its disgusting allies like Israel & Saudi Arabia. Seems to go hand in hand with brainless turds like yourself. Congrats.
Zionist? Israel? I am? How funny those TI supporters are. They are completely out of arguments, so they just call people names.
Your arguments are weak bruh. Read a few of your comments and they’re all falsified statements that don’t carry much more than wishful bias.
Tell me ONE false statements and I will apologize to everybody I call names while recognizing that I am the stupid one.
Just ONE factually incorrect statement. It should not be hard as there are “all falsified statements”.
Excellent “digging below the surface”.
Sunni-Shiite schism is a factor, but this report sheds more light on the erratic Saudi behavior in this regard.
Saddam Hussein’s alleged use of chemical weapons against Shiite Muslims in 1991 is a highly suspect charge. According to former C.I.A. analyst Stephen C. Pelletiere, who was in charge of intelligence operations during the Iran-Iraq war, evidence suggests only that Kurds and Shiites were gassed, not who gassed them. Symptoms of chemical-related trauma in recovered bodies strongly suggested compounds known to be used by Iran, i.e., cyanide-based agents, chemicals Hussein’s regime was known not to possess. What’s more, the alleged victims of gas attacks appear to have been guerrilla fighters siding with Iran, suggesting friendly fire in the heat of battle.
The oft-repeated, seldom challenged lie that Saddam Hussein “gassed the Kurds” and other enemies of the Iraqi state stems chiefly from the need to justify the 2003 invasion and occupation of Iraq. We must take care not to accept at face value any such claims against regimes we don’t like, and instead allow the known facts to guide our understanding. What facts are known pertaining to the gassing of Kurds and Shiite Muslims in Iraq during the late ’80s and early ’90s do not concur with the accusations made.
“We must take care not to accept at face value any such claims against regimes we don’t like”
You were hoping that this is like FOX news where ridiculous claims are accepted as facts! At the time of these chemical attacks, we very much liked Saddam. He was our buddy, we provided him with the precursors and the intelligence to gas the Kurds, the Shiites, Iranians,…
Try this some place else where the audience has had the “cool-aid”.
This is a rather striking explanation, and certainly possession of the oil fields would be a strong motive for a Sunni-Shiite religious war. It’s also true that past religious wars of this scale — the Thirty Years’ War, say — didn’t need petroleum to fuel the fire, but it does help.
Interesting that Churchill comes up. He and the UK gov’t of a century ago does share a lot of the blame, starting with Churchill’s decision, as First Sea Lord before WWI, to design the Queen Elizabeth class and subsequent classes of dreadnoughts to burn oil, not coal, which is why the Brits were suddenly so interested in Mesopotamia and Persia. Getting rid of the Ottomans and re-drawing the map in arbitrary ways after 1919 didn’t help either.
Still, this map does explain a few things.
“a peculiar correlation of religious history and anaerobic decomposition of plankton”
Lovely writing.
Thank you! Writing that gave me a great deal of satisfaction.
Sounds like a win-win scenario for the west! You think Anglo/America will stir the pot and incite a war? Ultimately sell weapons and then go in a scoop up the fossil fuel dirt cheap in what could be 2 decimated oil rich Islamic countries.
On January 2, same day that the execution of Nimr al-Nimr was announced, at 1400 GMT, the Saudis “ended” the truce in Yemen. What I’m not too clear on is what “ended” means – was the truce set for a fixed period, or did they just trash it when they wanted to? And was the truce ended because they’d killed Nimr and knew trouble was coming, or was Nimr killed to provide diplomatic (or rather, anti-diplomatic) cover for the truce ending?