Many Democrats will tell you that there has rarely, if ever, been a more menacing or evil presidential candidate than Donald Trump. “Trump is the most dangerous major candidate for president in memory,” pronounced Vox’s Ezra Klein two weeks ago. With a consensus now emerging that the real estate mogul is the likely GOP nominee, it would stand to reason that the most important factor for many Democrats in choosing their own nominee is electability: meaning, who has the best chance of defeating the GOP Satan in the general election? In light of that, can Democrats really afford to take such a risky gamble by nominating Hillary Clinton?
In virtually every poll, her rival, Bernie Sanders, does better, often much better, in head-to-head match-ups against every possible GOP candidate. Here, for instance, is a compilation of how Clinton does against Ted Cruz in recent polls: She trails the Texas senator in all but one poll, and in the one poll she leads, it is by a paltry 2 points:
By stark contrast, Sanders leads Cruz in every poll, including by substantial margins in some:
A similar story is seen in their match-ups against Trump. Although they both end up ahead in most polls, Sanders’ margin over Trump is generally very comfortable, while Clinton’s is smaller. Clinton’s average lead over Trump is just 2.8 percent, while Sanders’ lead is a full 6 points:
Then there’s the data about how each candidate is perceived. Put simply, Hillary Clinton is an extremely unpopular political figure. By contrast, even after enduring months of attacks from the Clinton camp and its large number of media surrogates, Sanders remains a popular figure.
A Gallup poll released this week reported that “29 percent of Americans offer a positive observation about Clinton while 51 percent express something negative.” As Gallup rather starkly put it: “Unfortunately for Clinton, the negative associations currently outnumber the positive ones by a sizable margin, and even among Democrats, the negatives are fairly high.” Sanders is, of course, a more unknown quantity, but “the public’s comments about Sanders can be summarized as 26 percent positive and 20 percent negative, with the rest categorized as neutral, other or no opinion.”
In fact, the more the public gets to see of both candidates, the more popular Sanders becomes, and the more unpopular Clinton becomes. Here’s Quinnipiac explaining that dynamic in one graph just a few days ago:
#Sanders and #Clinton reaching new high and new low favorability ratings, respectivelyhttps://t.co/jJ8e3rTVU6 pic.twitter.com/C4zkShxP3C
— Quinnipiac Poll (@QuinnipiacPoll) February 18, 2016
This Huffington Post chart, compiling recent polls, shows not only that Clinton is deeply unpopular among the electorate, but becomes increasingly unpopular the more the public is exposed to her during this campaign:
Or look at the same metric for critical states. In Ohio, for example, Sanders’ favorability rating is +3 (44-41 percent), while Clinton’s is negative 20 (37-57 percent).
Then there’s the particular climate of the electorate. While it’s undoubtedly true that racism and ethno-nationalism are significant factors in Trump’s appeal, also quite significant is a pervasive, long-standing contempt for the political establishment, combined with enduring rage at Wall Street and corporate America, which — along with the bipartisan agenda of globalization and free trade — have spawned intense economic suffering and deprivation among a huge number of Americans. This article by the conservative writer Michael Brendan Dougherty is the best I’ve read explaining the sustained success of Trump’s candidacy, and it very convincingly documents those factors: “There are a number of Americans who are losers from a process of economic globalization that enriches a transnational global elite.”
In this type of climate, why would anyone assume that a candidate who is the very embodiment of Globalist Establishment Power (see her new, shiny endorsement from Tony Blair), who is virtually drowning both personally and politically in Wall Street cash, has “electability” in her favor? Maybe one can find reasons to support a candidate like that. But in this environment, “electability” is most certainly not one of them. Has anyone made a convincing case why someone with those attributes would be a strong candidate in 2016?
Despite this mountain of data, the pundit consensus — which has been wrong about essentially everything — is that Hillary Clinton is electable and Bernie Sanders is not. There’s virtually no data to support this assertion. All of the relevant data compels the opposite conclusion. Rather than data, the assertion relies on highly speculative, evidence-free claims: Sanders will also become unpopular once he’s the target of GOP attacks; nobody who self-identifies as a “socialist” can win a national election; he’s too old or too ethnic to win, etc. The very same supporters of Hillary Clinton were saying very similar things just eight years ago about an unknown African-American first-term senator with the name Barack Hussein Obama.
Perhaps those claims are true this time. But given the stakes we’re being told are at play if Trump is nominated, wouldn’t one want to base one’s assessment in empirical evidence rather than pundit assertions, no matter how authoritative the tone used to express them?
It’s possible to argue that electability should not be the primary factor. That’s certainly reasonable: Elections often are and should be about aspirations, ideology, and opinion-changing leaders. But given the lurking possibility of a Trump presidency, is now really the time to gamble on such a risky general election candidate as Hillary Clinton?
Top photo: Donald Trump greets attendees after speaking at a campaign event at the Myrtle Beach Sports Center in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, Feb. 19, 2016.
Don’t worry liberals your victory is almost assured. You see Trump isn’t just a threat to all the policies that are destroying America. He’s a threat to the entire political establishment and their ability to enrich themselves at our expense. Republicans can’t allow the gravy train to end so they are working toward a brokered convention from which Mitt Romney will emerge the candidate. Trump supporters will be outraged and never support this backstabbing move by the GOP. Thinking they will keep their donor class happy the result will be no more Republican party. If I was a liberal I’d be praying Hillary doesn’t get indicted which is very likely. Despite all the public comments in support, there would be no leaks if Obama himself didn’t support them.
I’m a 68 year old Canadian who lives in Montreal, just 80 miles from Burlington Vermont. I can tell you that I used to visit Vermont before Bernie was Mayor and after, and I can tell you the man made, to my eyes, an amazing difference to the city. I’ll bet if you ask people in Burlington, or in Vermont for that matter, it would be hard to find anyone who had a bad word against him, whatever their political allegiance
And the idea that Bernie is too extreme because he supports universal single payer health care. We’ve had such a system here for nearly 50 years. Works pretty well, and even Conservatives say they support it, because any candidate who openly wanted to go back to a privatized health care system would be unelectable.
Hillary Clinton is a very capable, very intelligent person, but she is totally enmeshed in an insider universe. As Bernie says, you can fix a corrupt system by taking its money, and Hillary has taken a lot of its money.
Who seriously believes that polls eight months in advance will be the same after all nomination results are in. Who believes these poll results will hold up to the presidential elections in November. Any poll results now are just speculation. Besides which, this article gives the sense that it is a Bernie Sanders plant …
Absolutely correct. #BernNotice required.
We need these numbers EVERYWHERE so Democrats wake up and get mad about “superdelegates” that can make them lose the general election.
Or to ask it more simply, will the party of the status quo vote for the status quo candidates? If they don’t, they will lose their corporate bosses.
Sanders can win this, and we are busting our asses to get there. The media needs to stop pretending we’ve lost the war and should just roll over, die, and accept Clinton. We are the war, and real change is coming.
If Killary is the choice…….I’ll still vote for Bernie…………if Bernie is out, I’d vote for Trump before I’d ever vote for Hillary. She’s a republican in disguise and a lying sack of natural fertilizer.
Excuse me, but despite your dislike of Mrs. Clinton, she has a long established record or fighting on issues such as gender equality and childrens’ rights.
Hillary Clinton is a Liberal. Donald Trump is a demagogue, a megalomaniac and a fascist.
If you are foolish enough to vote for Donald Trump, than all I can say is that I hope that there are not too many like you, because if there are, we are all in serious trouble.
The problem is that way too many people rely on corporate media where pundits talk about their own “opinions” based not on data but on their personal senses, or even agenda driven senses, creating the perception of reality.
The reason why younger people are overwhelmingly for Sanders is mostly explained by their heavy reliance on the internet for sources of information.
The problem in America is that for almost their entire lives, voters have been formed by Hollywood, TV, Radio, and popular culture to view people as either one of 2 groups: the GOOD guy , or the BAD guy. It’s an extremely difficult thing for the average citizen to think that EVERY ONE on an election ticket is a BAD guy. There is so much evidence on record as well as circumstantial evidence that shows BOTH the Clintons and Trump as being absolutely corrupt and evil and evasive. And yet Americans are brainwashed into thinking that ONE of these two candidates are GOOD and one of them is BAD. When in fact, they could BOTH be BAD. That his a tough thing for Americans to stomach. I once heard someone on a plane mention that at least ONE of them was a worthy candidate. While talking to him, it was almost comical how he could not bring himself to believe that there was the possibility that BOTH corrupt and were dangerous options for America’s betterment. Tragic really.
Glenn, there is something evil among the network news shows afoot that we MUST discuss: nobody is asking why was there a 3 hour telephone discussion between Trump and Bill Clinton weeks before Trump announced his Presidential Campaign in the bowels of the Trump Tower. I for one, am completely convinced that to “guarantee” that Hilary would NOT be beaten again by an unknown candidate like she was by Obama in 2008, Bill set up a cancer INSIDE the Republican Party that would tear it apart. A cancer that can be controlled and in the end discredited with ugly business stories and bankruptcy stories, which (guess what) are now happening ! Besides, Trump’s existence and his list of fascist-like policies are being used by Hilary as the main reason why nobody should waste their vote FOR BERNIE SANDERS. Bill and Hilary have always been about one thing and one thing only: CONTROL. If you can control the outcome of something or control someone, than you can mitigate or even eliminate RISK and you will attain your objective. That is what is happening now, and there is too much evidence that a great investigative reporter like you must review to expose how Trump’s Presidential Campaign is all a giant scam intended to win Hilary the election and allow Bill Clinton to direct 99% of the government’s policies.
http://www.nytimes.com/politics/first-draft/2015/08/05/donald-trump-and-bill-clinton-chatted-by-phone-before-trump-announced-candidacy/?_r=0
The basic premise is which Democratic candidate can beat Donald Trump by turning out the most voters. Setting aside the media coverage, to date the voter turnout for both parties has been anemic too small to predict how the public will vote in the General. Sanders is more idealistic than Jimmy Carter and we know how that turned out. Trump is a self promoter, nobody knows how he could or would manage. My sense is this will be increasingly apparent and Clinton has the best chance of turning out the vote.
If I had my pick it would have been Bush, Kachish,or Graham on the GOP side against Clinton. Sanders is a nice idealistic guy who has no chance and is naive to think he can reach across the aisle, the Republicans will be more dismissive of him than Obama.
If it came down to Trump vs Sanders I would vote for Trump and then go home and get drunk.
This election after sweating and pants wetting and height and hand size, fearful of what comes next, getting drunk before you vote should be allowed.
Wish The media, the Democratic National Party, and others out there would give Bernie more air time and more attention…if people heard him talk for more than 5 minutes, they would become aware that he is the most honest, forward thinking, economically and socially aware and sound supporter, and cares about people’s needs than any other candidate, especially Trump, Kruz and Rubio – and knows that Hillary is adoptng his plans and policies as part of her campaign rhetoric and TV commercials, but in reality and if you watch and listen you will see that she is insincere, untrue in her feelings compared to her comments, is as slick and slippery as her husband and she never really has accomplished anything in all of the federal, state positions she has held over the years – couldn’t get a health care program adopted, couldn’t get her hands out of bank’ and Wall Street’s pockets, messed up things in the Middle East, and on and on.
I have been a life long democrat and have always voted for democrats and voted for Bill Clinton twice but if Hilary is up against Trump I will not vote for Hilary. I will not vote for Trump but will vote for another candidate who is listed on the ballot. I was fooled by the Clintons twice and will not be fooled for the third time.
And this is why Trump will become the next president. Enjoy!
what your suggesting is that people give in to the power structure and vote out of fear. the people should not give up their dignity and show that they can be manipulated by fear. People are failing to recognize how awful and insidious Clinton is. Enjoy tightening your shackles.
Glenn, we find our selves in the strangest of times… Trump or Clinton. How did we ever get here. I fear for our country, the world, either way.
Great job as usual.
Michael Reddick
Firstly ; I like to express my outmost respects to you.
I’m a 65 year old mother of 2 grown up professional daughters.
Secondly; I absolutely refuse to have a woman who is hawkish, dishonest and corrupt to start my history as a woman at the White House. She needs to understand the fact that her vote to involve us to any war is a vote against all those innocent women and children where war takes place. I don’t believe she is for women rights.
Thirdly ; I am so disappointed in Elizabeth warren who cawerdly decided to stay quite.
Fourth; it’s time for back American to open their ears and eyes and quit this religious belief in clintons as they are in the pocket of banks and wall streets.its time to wake up and see their “old leaders” for who actually and Truely they are. I can’t believe if dr. King was alive would kiss Hillary’s chick. Such a shame.
At least koucks brothers pay to get the votes , when votes of black American are given for nothing ( not sure how much they receive from clintons C PAC. Shame on them for betraying black American. But as Bertolt Bresht once said : people deserve what they have unless they go against them
Another brilliant piece, Glen. We need a grass roots effort to get people off of corporate media and into sites like the Intercept.
Assuming the poll data are reasonably accurate, looks like Sanders is the better choice. But, assuming further that Sanders were to make it to the White House, a Republican Congress would to to him what it’s done for 8 years to Obama. In other words, whoever becomes president, the chance of substantive change is zero.
And they wouldn’t do the same to Hillary? The same Hillary that they’ve constantly attacked and ran investigations on? The only thing they’ll ever let her do is sign off on corporate goodies like the TPP something she’ll have no issue supporting.
I will NEVER vote Hillary! #BernieorBust #AnybodybutHillary
So you would rather vote for Trump over Hillary, should Hillary win the nomination?
I get the #BernieorBust but not the #AnybodybutHillary. But I still won’t vote for Hillary.
I must reiterate I’m loving Beltway and establishment corporate media losing their minds, their hatred of Trump and fear of Sanders is palpable. And you can bet the Sunday morning news shows will ALL be re-anointing Hillary as somehow the future queen of America’s shiny capitalist destiny, because of the “black vote” in racist South Carolina. I almost wish I could still watch that crap, just to laugh at the conservatives this morning throwing her compliments – while denigrating Trump.
What better proof the status quo is really one large and singularly corrupt entity?
You nailed it too, Glenn, Trump is just not scary to enough to the low interest voters that same corrupt establishment media – has intentionally lulled to sleep.
The last time a Democrat won SC in the general was 1976. If the Democrats coronate her based on her “southern strategy” they deserve to lose, Donald Trump or no Donald Trump.
Here’s my Hollywood take on all of this. Obama will nominate HIllary to the supreme court. The Republicants will jump on it because it will remove her from the race and they think Bernie would be easier to beat. As soon as Hillary is confirmed, Bloomberg jumps in and we are spared Trump presidency and get a great judge for life.
Get a what??? Yeah, a greatly pro-corruption judge like Scalia, a greatly pro-corporationhood and pro-MIC / IC judge, a greatly poor judgment in matters of government overreach (Patriot Act) judge, a greatly slow to lose her bigotry judge.
A great what? Pffffft!
Yeah, you’re right. But in my defense I did say Hollywood analysis. True to my word, it turned out light and fluffy and lacking in substance. But you know what? Even with all of those negatives she would be better than a judge nominated by a President Trump.
Ever watch Larry Wilmore’s Nightly Show? Because I’m throwing “weak tea” bags at you.
Hillary Clinton is a criminal and deserves to be locked up for her crimes. Again and again other people p a the price for HER crimes. She should NEVER hold any public office again. She’s as corrupt as they come! A great judge? No way! Educate yourself on her dealings over the last 30 years.
Republican unification is just around the corner, as soon as the demos finish coronating the most insider candidate this side of JEB! The Dem party establishment is blind. Hold your noses and prepare for a Trump presidency.
Even Donald Duck could beat Idiot Trump in November. Trump is nothing more than a Times Square’s pimp barker + $200,000,000 daddy’s fortune. He is the ugly/male version of Paris Hilton!!!
whichever party ignores the wind of discontent sweeping the nation will lose the election.
Yes,Hitlery and the Zionist party.
You forgot that Hillary also has a greater than 0% chance of being indicted by the FBI!!
If the DNC wants the White House, they WILL nominate Bernie, or hand the white house to the Republicans.
The DNC would prefer a #GOP win to Sanders because it would disturb their privilege less.
Sanders is probably in a world of hurt after South Carolina primary. Hillary received (so far) almost 80% of the vote. Southerners – especially black southerners – are not reading the Intercept surprisingly enough (or agreeing with the one-sided coverage). Of course, most black people abandoned Hillary in 2008 when identity politics (i.e. racism) suddenly became the rage of the left.
On the Republican side, the establishment main stream media is hedging their bet on Rubio to overtake Trump. They are highlighting his attacks on Trump while ignoring Cruz. If Rubio succeeds, this would be a nightmare election for the radical left – two candidates in the tank to Israel, AIPAC and big Jewish money. Adelson would be faced with a tough choice.
On the other hand, who would the Intercept endorse if Trump faces off against the “unelectable” Hillary – a xenophobic bigot who might take a neutral stand with the IP conflict, or a shill for Israel who seeks closer relations with the Jewish state? Hillary might be the choice of many Republicans. She is as close to being a Neocon as Americans have seen on the Democratic side for decades. I suspect the Intercept would continue their assault on Hillary with the unknown policies of Trump better than the alternative from Arkansas who would steer Americans toward more involvement in the Middle East and revive alliances that Obama alienated (Saudis, Egypt, Israel).
Bernie Sanders for President – in 2020.
Who would your news website, The UN-Intercept, endorse, Craig?
Trump, Sufi. Personally, I am not against putting some pressure on Israel, and I cannot stand Hillary.
I’d be surprised if the party went with Trump. I think Rubio is going to shock everyone this Tuesday.
How about Clinton/Sanders vs Rubio/??? ?
Rubio definitely has the support of the establishment. I would vote for Rubio over Hillary. How about you Sufi. Who do you support?
Rubio has a terrible LGBT voting record.
Yet Rubio was arrested in a gay cruising park with a guy who now distributes gay porn. Can you say two-faced?
Sure you can, Lindsey Graham …
My prediction for the Zionist ticket;Hell Bitch,Rubio.
That’s wishful thinking, although why anyone would wish for Rubio, I don’t know. The polls say Trump is going to dominate on Tuesday.
Honestly, that pro-Palestinian American voter is a straw man, right? The Intercept can always endorse Jill Stein, useless but again … useful.
HRC is certainly less electable than Sanders. Here’s how Trump would play to her weaknesses and how she’d most likely respond (very differently than Bernie): http://static.currentaffairs.org/2016/02/unless-the-democrats-nominate-sanders-a-trump-nomination-means-a-trump-presidency
President Donald Trump.
Get used to it!
I thought that it couldn’t get any worse than George W. Bush.
But if I I were a betting man, I’d wager that a President Trump would likely be even worse, a full fledged disaster.
IT really is not possible. Examine her political career. For the DNC to even entertain the thought is foolish. Hilary Clinton’s first run for the presidency was at a time of CHANGE……and the DNC put forth a black man – or a white woman… Today’s decision ensures there will be no change . Hilary Clinton is all for maintaining the STATUS QUO of nothing new – don’t make waves…..
Supporting Wall Street ?? the Banks?? after the foreclosures??
I will be withdrawing from the democratic party after this election – I THINK FOR MYSELF
This is good:
Wonderful, refreshing article. Basing things on fact is always a narrative the Blue Dogs and the GOP just hate.
Hillary Clinton could not get my vote, if she were the ONLY candidate on the ticket, so there is the dilemma. Do you risk going with a candidate with no long-term dedication to the improvement of our American Governmental Path, or do you make the obvious choice to select the ONE and only candidate who’s been true to The People for FIVE (count them) decades now – Bernie Sanders. He has no slick car saleswoman like banter, no Bleached Blond Hair. NO Ties to WALL STREET and the BANKS. He does not send us into wars unless there is fact to back it up and very good reasons. He does not LIE to make any of us “think” he’s on our side. And he does not CHANGE HIS POSITIONS every other day of the week, to suit the crowd he’s standing in front of. You don’t like his older guy cut to the chase way of discussing the ISSUES? Fine, then vote for Trump. You might as well, because if you vote for Hillary, your vote is just as good as handing the election to T on a silver platter. She has not answered one hard question yet, and I have watched her SKILLED DANCE AROUND those questions for months now, claiming that Mr. Sanders is using the “artful smear”, when in fact, she is the one using it. I am not satisfied with ANY answers she gives. I feel like I’m watching a suspect dodge the questions, every time I see her responses.
Yes, I am very hard on her, because I’ve been lied to before and recognize it when its happening. The Bush team was seasoned at it, and she bought their lies, hook, line, and sinker. I knew they were lying. Why didn’t she?
Why would I assume she has the good judgement required to lead our nation? I would not.
Tricky Dick Nixon would not go away way back when. This Clinton effort for power has the same flavor. The art of deception is too well practiced by such evolved lower selves.
Why has no one in the media questioned Hillary on why she supports the death penalty?almost 60% of those on death row are African American and Hispanic.If she is the nominee I will have to vote for Jill Stein.Before anyone comments that is like a vote for Ttump I know that,but I can’t in good conscience vote for her!
I’m with you JoAnna for the moment. It is hard to know who will actually win the nomination but I will not vote for HRC. I’ve had other Dems tell me that I need to vote for the lesser of two evils if she is the nominee. I refuse to vote for anyone deemed “evil” even if it is the “lesser” one. I will also vote for Jill just as I voted for Nader in 2000. Let the cards fall as they may.
Both of you are exactly correct!
Why is Crossroads actively helping Bernie against Hillary? Why is NO ONE in the GOP attacking Bernie?
Hillary’s negatives will evaporate when she’s one on one against Trump — it’s going to be the year of the woman.
Bernie refuses to attack Hillary. But obviously Trump (or any GOP nominee) will use the long list of Clinton “scandals” and Hillary’s own personality weaknesses against her: http://static.currentaffairs.org/2016/02/unless-the-democrats-nominate-sanders-a-trump-nomination-means-a-trump-presidency
I don’t trust any other candidate as they keep changing their stripes to win votes. They will say and do whatever it takes to get elected, using clever media techniques, soundbites and commercials.
I am sick of all this, and that is why I believe that Bernie Sanders is really the only one who cares, is truthful, and will honestly represent the people of the United States. His platform has never faltered or wavered over time….he honestly cares about all of us.
A comment I saw on a Facebook page today that sums things up nicely, about this article and many others within the sphere of corporate media:
“Those who allow themselves to support the corruption of the dems out of fear of republicans can coddle their fear by themselves. Supreme Court, what a joke. Obama wanted to nominate Someone from the gop to Scalias seat. The dems are blackmailing you with fear to keep you enslaved to a party that openy serves the military industrial complex and corporations over YOU. You are like abused spouses who won’t leave their abusers out of fear of something worse. You enable this to continue and then want to blame those who won’t stay. That is a sick dynamic and there are enough of us now who are done with it to form a new party. Spare us your fear mongering lectures. It is old”~~ Debbie Lusignan
Wallmart pays their employees so little, some of them rely on food banks. Fortunately the Waltons can afford to pay Clinton, to keep things that way.
This is a key point. Thematically similar to Scalia’s rejection of guidance from foreign or international legal sources, is Clinton’s belief in “We are not Denmark” as an answer to why Americans shouldn’t have things like universal healthcare.
When people realize that for profit medicine(no,not doctor nurse etc wages,but stock holders)is blood money,perhaps we will end this perversion of medicine from charity to vultures.
I believe that it was the 80s when Blue Cross etc was privatized.Since then medical costs have gone through the roof!
Just about every privatization scheme is one of profit over people.
If the democrats choose to go with Hilary, she will be destroy by the republicans, whoever might be their candidate, base in her past, starting with the Whitewater scandal.
If Sanders is nominated, the right will change their attack from Bernie the socialist who is soft on defense to Bernie the commie terrorist sympathizer. Wall Street bankers and the billionaires on the right will spend zillions making this case; and they will be successful. Let’s not forget Nader’s hopeless ego driven campaign that put Bush in office. The current Supreme court can be fairly called the Nader court. Let’s not make the same mistake again.
You don’t get it. The political zeitgeist has changed, greatly. Economic and criminal-justice issues are front and center. Older people who can be hoodwinked with rants about “commies” are a diminishing portion of the electorate; the younger generations don’t care.
They were able to kill Occupy, but the economic underpinnings of that movement has roared back with more yet more young voters who are mad for Bernie. Even in my older age cohort we non-wingnuts are nearly split evenly between him and Hillary.
Your analysis is an anachronistic.
Mona,
The black vote for HC in S. Carolina illustrates very poor judgement of those voters. This means she will no doubt be candidate for the Dems and be endorsed by Sanders. Jill Stein and the Green Party deserve all the support we can muster in the general election.
Might it also show that black people can be antisemites?
The only possible explanation.other than stupidity,and ignorance.
Reality and the illiberal.
Not sure about anti-Semitism but it has seemed to me that blacks as a group or individuals may take things differently than others – taking offense when none was intended. Just mentioning the possibility of physical differences that might affect health risks seemed to dub me racist when my point was that Black lives matter – and individualizing health care matters instead of basing so much research on white males’ health. The treatment of non-Jewish Africans in Israel hasn’t been good, so it may not be ignorance so much as knowledge or common sense. Great friends who can be worst enemies may not be great friends after all, not anti-Semitic – anti-Apartheid but we can’t talk about it, so it doesn’t get addressed in directly in politics either. http://www.davidsheen.com/racism/
This has nothing to do with Nader. Why do you people keep bring up Nader? He was a 3rd Party candidate. It was a different world. No the present circumstance but I guess you think some people won’t realize that.to
Your pathetic comments about Nader are incorrect and yet typical off attacks on the left by Democratic party hacks.
The 2000 election was stolen by the supreme court.
The Republicans purged the voter roles of thousand of black voters.
Gore won the popular vote in Florida after a recount by the NYT and others.
Gore failed to fight for a state-wide recount which he would have won.
Thousands of Democrats voted for Bush.
Gore picked that stupid right wing clown Lieberman as a running mate.
The butterfly ballots confused many voters into voting for Buchanan instead of Gore.
The brother of the Shrub was the governor of Florida, and there was a concerted effort to cheat the Democrats which succeeded.
All of that, and some spineless Democrats still blame Nader, the only person in that race with a conscience and long history of saving millions of lives, and advancing the understanding of civics in our country. A tireless hero for the people gets smeared by partisan stooges like you. Pathetic.
And… the old fall back of bringing up the supreme court doesn’t hold water. The senate confirms nominees. Democratic senators often voted for the right wing hacks on the court instead of blocking them with a filibuster. Blame the Democratic party for being spineless, not those who consistently fight bravely for good causes over multiple decades.
You might as well talk to a brick wall regarding Nader. Democratic Party hatred of him is a requirement, now a cherished part of their mythical modern history. It makes things so easy for them.
Oh, and another one to add to your list–Gore couldn’t carry his own state vs. Bush. Gore ran the same sort of heavily-processed and mechanical campaign we will see from HRC should she win the nom.
Thanks, but I try to correct the record every time one of these propagandists comes up with this delusional partisan crap.
I voted for Nader and do not regret it even though the Bush admin was a house of horrors. The blame for his winning goes straight to the Supremes and we are still living it out. How the man ever got reelected in ’04 had a lot to do with swift boats and big money in politics.
A liberal demoncrat picking a right wing Likud pos.Yes,it cost him the election,but the terrible response to 9-11 would have occurred with that idiot in the WH,also.
Who could be more narcissistic and ego driven than your run of the mill Democrat or Republican politician?
Nader was the first and only actual public servant who ran for president in my lifetime. Dems will be whining for 50 more years over Gore’s loss to Bush because of a corrupt and partisan SCOTUS, and Gore’s throwing in the towel and not challenging the vote count. Like Kerry, who was also spineless in the face of massive Repub voter fraud. The Dems and Repubs need to realize that the electoral system is so hopelessly corrupt because of THEM and that third parties are needed to change the system. I voted for Nader twice, and am proud of those votes. If Clinton is the Dem nominee, I will be voting for Dr. Jill Stein. Again. The Dems can go straight to Hell for all I care.
Greenwald, truly the best journalist of his generation — the best in many generations.
Sure, you can prove anything with your fancy facts, but…
Trump’s latest outburst, and this time it’s his wanting, as President, to sue news media for libel.
http://www.politico.com/blogs/on-media/2016/02/donald-trump-libel-laws-219866
He’d have to overturn the Court ruling in New York Times Co. v. Sullivan, 376 U.S. 254 (1964), but if he gets to pick Justices, that’s possible. It kicks at a major pillar of the Republic. Even Hillary might not go that far.
Thank you for this article! I’ve had to dispel this electability myth to many of my friends who don’t dig into pollster or realclearpolitics, but get their information from CNN and MSNBC.
You also make a great point about trade. People forget that Obama vs Romney could have gone the other way if states like ohio, michigan, and pennsylvania voted red. These states have been hit hard by the trade deals, and if it’s a Trump vs Clinton matchup she’ll have a hard time explaining to white collar workers why she should get their vote.
Either one can beat the Trumpster … if we just get the liberals out to vote. Which will have salubrious effects in down-ticket races as well, which is ALSO (see, e.g., “Congress”) important….
Then there’s Hillary tolerating Islamophobia:
The one question that no Clinton supporter I know on Facebook has been able to answer is, “What makes you think Hillary Clinton can turn her negative favorability and trustworthiness numbers around in 9 months considering that they are the product of 25 years in the public eye?” And particularly with the ongoing email server scandal that could end in an indictment.
What is the answer to that question? Better debate performances? Campaign ads? More stump speeches? Awesome tweets?
It’s magical thinking.
Several analysts have described how this campaign parallels her ’08 experience: The more people saw of her the less they liked or trusted her.
Mwuhahahahahahaha!!!! This latest debacle with the “bring them to heel” protester will add fuel to the fire.
Talk about a magical moment. #WhichHillary is one of the most concise hashtags ever.
Agree. But my understanding of the neoliberal triangulation handbook is that she really doesn’t need to do any of that to win. Should she make it to the general election (it says here in the handbook) all she needs to do is tack hard to the Right in order to eek out a razor-thin victory over whoever survives on the GOP side.
Given how much of Sanders’ stump speech she is now parroting–her shift to the Right in the general is going to be magnificent in scale.
It’s jarring when you are reminded that something like Twitter, a platform so many rely on for so many different things, that so many hope would be a way around consolidated media control, is of course, the private property of a few wealthy people, and it’s their business if they don’t want Sanders derailing the gravy train.
Here’s another…”I like Bernie Sanders, I like everything he stands for, but I can’t vote for him this time, maybe next time” article.
Let’s recap, Cohen likes what Sanders stands for….he just doesn’t accept the minor bit about billionaires subverting democracy. Except for that…he’s all for Sanders. He likes him.
And the differences between Sanders and Clinton are minuscule, compared to the differences between Democrats and Republicans….somehow, says Cohen. Maybe because Sanders isn’t funded by the rich few, whereas Clinton is…so that’s sort of the same thing…and the Republicans and Clinton are funded by the rich few…so they are poles apart, really, ….or something….I’m going to have to read the Cohen article again.
But don’t doubt that Michael Cohen likes Bernie. Any other election he’d vote for Sanders…just not this one where Sanders is leading Clinton in all head to head match ups against every Republican. This election is important, in the future maybe Cohen won’t care who wins, but let’s review Cohen’s past titles:
Come to think of it, maybe Cohen starting a column with “I like Bernie Sanders….but” is disingenuous.
I really should have put the link, it’s a good read….especially this line:
Cohen is very subtle, but I think what he is trying to say between the lines, on each line, and in every one of his articles, is that it doesn’t matter that Clinton is untrustworthy, or that both the Democrats and the Republicans are run out of Wall Street, it doesn’t matter that electing the establishment’s candidates won’t get you healthcare, free tuition, won’t reform campaign financing…What really matters, and listen to this carefully because this is very important to Michael Cohen….
…The Democrat party really really want power, it’s something they care very deeply about. And you mustn’t let the Republicans start serving Wall Street from the white house, because….that’s what the Democrats like to do…So Please, think again…do you really need that education? That health care? Are you that selfish that you would prioritize your government serving your own needs over the interests of one of the two establishment parties???
Chomsky in HuffPo on why the rise of Trump. Older white males love him. For racist reasons, often, yes, But also more existential issues.
I find the more interesting part is Trump’s support among the non-racists, who make up the majority. People seem to gloss over the content of Trump’s speeches, they will say that they even disagree with what he says, they will say they don’t believe Trump believes what he says, and they don’t mind him saying it. It makes them feel good just the manner in which he speaks. But is that something really new?
When I listen to Americans I hear something I don’t hear so much elsewhere. I hear more of “I like his character”, “he’s the kind of guy I’d have a beer with”. Elsewhere, to enormously generalize and exaggerate, I hear more about…”What will he do for me, once in office?”, and “why should I believe he will do what he says?”
So, as far as American politicians go, is Trump really sui generis, or is he simply better at sound bites and meaningless talking points than other candidates. What does “Morning in America” mean? What does “I feel your pain” mean. What does “compassionate conservative” mean? What does “hope and change” mean? Are those really any more packed with information than “make America great again”?
It’s something that interests me, because, my outlook, is, I’ll vote for the person who I judge will do the most of what I want done. I don’t need a drinking buddy, I need policies carried out.
That’s why regular Americans have been getting trounced by Wall Street for so many years. Wall Street knows exactly what legislation they want, they will even write it themselves and hand it to their chosen congress people. Whereas regular Americans are….”Oh, wouldn’t it be splendid to have a woman in the white house!!!” or “As a businessman, he’d be such a strong leader!!!”
I’d dispute the idea that ‘regular Americans’ are coming up with this kind of drivel. In my experience they don’t say shit like “As a businessman, he’d be such a strong leader!!!” until it’s been hammered into their heads for quite a few weeks by the multimedia noise machine.
What you’re right about is the comparative lack of focus in the electorate at large, vis-a-vis Wall Street or any of our other large powerful special interest groups (i.e. the health care industry or the security industry).
Well who then?The Zionist MSM hates Trump.So who came up with the businessman angle?How about logical thinking,as it is his strong point,and the impetus to his ascension to the nomination.What other thing does he have besides business?He’s never been in office,so they can’t credibly critique that,other than old newsreels where he commented on issues of the day as a citizen not privy to govt.machinations.
Haters gotta hate.
The American people are waking to the fact that traitors run our nation.Trump is an American,through and through.
Zollywood insults the Roman Catholic Church.If the bastards want more fuel on the fires of antiZionism,they got it.
Spotlight;Yes,priests molesting children is horrific.But the accused denied the allegations,and refused plea deals that would have set them free.Instead of the incarceration,for 67 years.
A Zionist witch hunt,and the hell bitch witch whose murdered millions? runs free.
Check out the story in CP,unless you just hate Catholics.
Son of Saul wins best foreign language film.
No films on Cast Lead huh?How about assassination Iranian scientists?
What a disaster of propaganda.
JLocke: great points. My only question is who would want to have a beer with a bully who might demean you for the slightest perceived indiscretion, other than a sycophant? Perhaps his core supporters but the millions of disaffected, mainly working class folks who are fed up with “the establishment” are hoping that this tough guy won’t hesitate to kick the “bad guys” in the teeth. Their indignation is righteous, their targets — other than greedy bankers and upper class elitists — are victims of the establishment as well (Blacks, immigrants, teachers, women, gays, etc.). Matt Taibbi isn’t the first commentator to compare Trump to Mussolini.
This whole examination of Hillary Clinton versus Donald Trump
is mainly an exhibition of delusional excitement in the
fake U$A.
The enormous shared predatory economics
of Clinton, Trump, the establishment democrats and the
establishment republicans is the hybrid elephant/jackass
which gains by the support for any one of these corporate
flim flam scammers.
Sanders is the only one of these establishment members
who steps a little outside of the corporate machinery and his
effectiveness is dubious because the establishment he
has joined does not really want him.
Ridiculous fake divisions abound within the GOP/Dem beast.
Meaning that for the pleasure of being able to watch insincere campaign coverage and see manipulative political ads on TV for free, we end up having to pay inflated Medicare drug prices, fund bank bailouts with our taxes, let billionaires pay 17 percent tax rates, and suffer a thousand other indignities. Trump is right: Because Jeb Bush can’t afford to make his own commercials, he would go into the White House in the pocket of a drug manufacturer. It really is that stupid.
Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/how-america-made-donald-trump-unstoppable-20160224#ixzz41KP8SsK4
Follow us: @rollingstone on Twitter | RollingStone on Facebook
Here’s Seth Meyers continuing the tradition of comedy shows in America being sometimes more reliable reporters of facts than the ostensible news outlets. Lou Dobbs, formerly of CNN, now on Fox, telling his audience that Bernie Sanders wants to give Americans free cars:
That’s quite the match-up, the guy who wants students to have free tuition and everyone to have health care….vs the guy who wants lower taxes so he can put another layer of gold on his house.
The only people worried about Hillary vs Trump are Republicans.
I take it you didn’t read the article.
President Donald Trump.
A thousand ridiculous accidents needed to happen in the unlikeliest of sequences for it to be possible, but absent a dramatic turn of events – an early primary catastrophe, Mike Bloomberg ego-crashing the race, etc. – this boorish, monosyllabic TV tyrant with the attention span of an Xbox-playing 11-year-old really is set to lay waste to the most impenetrable oligarchy the Western world ever devised.
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/how-america-made-donald-trump-unstoppable-20160224?page=2
Allah wills it!:)
And I guarantee much less innocent Muslim civilians will die from Trump than the shrub,Obomba and the hell bitch.
Stateless mercenary heretic terrorists?
I wouldn’t want to be in their shoes with Trump and Putin on their ass.
Well, at this point in time, there is no comparison between Sen. Sanders
and Mrs. Clinton. Her history and record are so egregious and easily
referenced, that it’s difficult to imagine how any serious voter would have
a problem deciding between the two. It’s confounding to understand that
a sentient person would have a struggle with this. It’s far from close.
Despite the hate against Hillary, she will go on and make history by coming Americas FIRST WOMAN President, you better believe it.
Polls, media conspiracy and huge crowds at rallies, Hillary appeals to a lot of people who will get out and vote for her on the 8 Nov.
Put your head down and go onward and forward Hillary.
A lot republicans will NOT vote for Trump and that’s a fact.
That’s some pretty weak Hillary cheerleading you have going there. Such dreck, substanceless as it is, will persuade virtually no one in this comments section.
Oh Mona?
a lot of people in here saying they will vote for Trump if she wins the nomination is all hotair lol.
Just like the Republicans encouraged their members to rig the Nevada election by voting for Bernie Sanders to keep Hillary out DID NOT WORK lol
Get ready to welcome your First woman President – YOU BET
Hillary/Democrat 318 electoral votes – say no more.
You are living in a cloud of Hillary campaign pamphlets. And spewing from them. It’s kind of nauseating to observe someone be so unthinkingly indoctrinated by such vacuous bilge.
Hillary will win and win YUGEEE!!!!
You must be on her campaign staff. This ‘inevitability’ argument is stoopid, and anyone who actually read the intercept for content wouldn’t make it.
That aside, Clinton has an astonishingly consistent record as a sociopath, liar, and incompetent. And is married to an alleged rapist. So think about where you’re getting your money from.
campaign staff?
what a stupid thing to say, trait of Hillary haters.
I admire Hillary for all her achievements and America will agree to that on the 8 Nov.
President Hillary Rodham Clinton – YOU BET and by a country mile.
” Lets Go Hillary “
I see. You admire the Iraq war horror, the Libya debacle, the gutting of the safety net in the 90s, the criminal justice scheme she lobbied for in the 90s that has decimated the black community, her close friendship with the war criminal Kissinger, the fact that she brags that the conservative milieu of her youth has always guided her, her promoting trade agreements that destroyed jobs in the U.S. ? You admire all that?
Hey schmuck,give US an example of her accomplishments other than marrying bent dick and riding his coattails to power.
I support this and want to add this link for those that insist the Bernie supporters roll over for Hillary. PLEASE read this carefully this author is exactly correct. Trump WILL eviscerate Hillary if they are matched – then WATCH what he has done to much more charismatic GOP competition. SHE WILL be mincemeat against his slick use of scandals and insults. Bernie seems immune to those kinds of tactics. http://static.currentaffairs.org/2016/02/unless-the-democrats-nominate-sanders-a-trump-nomination-means-a-trump-presidency
this is a great link for those that thinks Hillary have NO chance of winning. GREAT READ
http://predictwise.com/politics/2016-president-winner
It’s a bit late to expect the Democrat elite or followers to put away their knives and feel the Berm. Democrat Party loyalists have never shown much intelligence when the rubes begin to think they can challenge this beast and dominance over the sheeple seems to be more important than winning or they think money and influence will carry the day, because they believe and will soon proclaim people have no choice.
I don’t know if this is a trend but some Sanders supporters are already reporting they will vote for Trump if Sanders is eliminated apparently because he is viewed as more trustworthy and to the left of HRC on many important issues.
This is true, altho I am not one of them by any means. Most commenting here are not, but there are a few. A good deal of polling demonstrates that there is this cohort in the electorate.
Vote for Sanders, and then for Trump?! Ridiculous. For one thing, he is to the right on things like same-sex marriage, or says he is, and on matters of torture and defense policy he’s a Caligula. He’s only un-conservative in the sense his ideology is whatever he spouts.
I’m voting for Sanders if I can, or Trump if I can’t. Hillary is a war mongering, whore for wall street. She is the face of the deep state and military industrial complex in the this country. Say what you will about Trump, but he’s a non-interventionist compared to Clinton.
Preaching to the choir there, coram! But below you’ll see there are a few commenters who’ve announced this is their plan. There are a significant enough number who would vote for Trump over Hillary if Sanders doesn’t take it.
No such nonsense Mona.
Trump supporters will no doubt say that but at the end of the day, Hillary supporters will vote for her and her alone.
Hillary will get a lot of disgruntled Republican voters so it will happen both ways.
There is no basis for your unsupported assertions of what is mere campaign propaganda.
I hope the disaffected followers of Sanders will, after his capitulation to the Hillary machine, get behind Jill Stein and give the Green Party their support. Green is where they should have been anyway.
if Bernie doesn’t make it to the general then I am voting green. No other option. I was heartened tho to see the turnout for the March for Bernie – looked great – gives me hope for us all. Has to be seen online, MSM blackout is apparently in effect. Nothing new there.
Did someone steal your handle?
Trump is against the neolibcon globalists who have destroyed US.Yes,he does global business,but he knows the art of the deal isn’t F-16s.
The latest news is we are sending advisers to Nigeria?Jesus.
Same sex marriage?
I’d vote for either,but I believe Sanders Zionism makes his mind suspect,while Trump is an American,through and through.
Hillary Clinton is a nobody,mentally and actually,and track record wise.
Trump is too unstable. A dog might bark at an intruder in your yard, but that doesn’t mean the dog should be a co-owner of your house.
Trump is a NYer.We tend to bombast a little,but we get things done.:)
America has to divorce itself from the Zionists.Bottom line.
Have you looked at all the MSM hatred for him?
The idiots haven’t figured out,in their unbelievable hubris,that they’ve gone too far,and the more they slur him,the more the people are for him.
His words belied by our current actions of torture,war and invasion?
Trump probably knows and works with many homosexuals.There is absolutely no gay bashing going on today,other than the evangelical hypocrites hate.
He is the only candidate to say the Shrub let US down,that all these wars have been counterproductive,that our manufacturing base has left US,will bring back jobs,and America sovereignty is precious.
WTF is not to like.
Again his words of support for torture and killing the families of terrorists(both stupid btw)are already state policy and current,Jeez.
I agree with much of this article, but I believe the establishment will do whatever they need to maintain control in this election. Which means…
If Sanders is nominated, Michael Bloomberg will run as a 3rd party and hand the election to the Republicans.
If Sanders is not nominated and Trump is, a conservative will run as a 3rd party and hand the election to Clinton.
Not a great situation to be in.
More people need to read this- http://static.currentaffairs.org/2016/02/unless-the-democrats-nominate-sanders-a-trump-nomination-means-a-trump-presidency
You know, if Hillary were more like Eleanor Roosevelt (the best Roosevelt), people would like her more. But she’s not and they don’t. Bernie, though male, carries Eleanor’s torch.
I would not respect a person that lied about being under sniper fire, let alone vote for such a person.
brown vote black vote young vote gay vote he (trump) will not win
I urge everyone to read the Michael Brendan Dougherty article linked in Glenn’s piece. Brilliant bit of scholarship to dig out that farseeing article, Glenn, and to put it into context for us. Thanks
This argument is nonsense. Sanders looks better in polls now because the Republicans haven’t started attacking him yet. Have you noticed how they ALWAYS attack Clinton? They don’t attack Sanders because they’re desperately hoping he gets the nomination.
And if he does, they’ll unload attacks that would destroy him in November. This is a man who’s an admitted Socialist, and while mayor of Burlington visited the Soviet Union (for his honeymoon!) and the Sandinistas in Nicaragua.
Therefore, the Republicans would paint Sanders as an open Communist sympathizer. (And yes, I realize this is not true, but when has that ever mattered to Republicans?) Therefore, he’ll lose the votes of everyone who’s old enough to remember the Cold War and the Soviet Union. As you might have noticed, the huge portion of Sanders’ present supporters are too young to remember these things.
I’m hoping Sanders eventually becomes Clinton’s Vice-Presidential nominee. This will help to draw those young supporters, and it will also give Sanders a good platform for pushing Clinton and the Party to the left.
I don’t want to bust your right wing bubble,but Vladimir Putin is more popular in America than Obomba.
Putin is not a communist. And can you imagine Sanders next to Putin?
Many people who are in their white loud Sanders bubble don’t realize that Clinton has many silent supporters who are tired of the misogyny. Ever wonder why her approval ratings drop only when she’s running for president?
Yes,but the MSM always point out his heading of the KGB,in a commie hit.The people of the US probably think he is one despite reality.
I see Joe McCarthy has arrived down below. Joe, I remember watching your sweaty face during the hearings. How ya been?
“Rev. Al Sharpton told attendees at a Center for American Progress Action Fund event Thursday he would flee the country if Donald Trump won the election, in order to avoid being deported by Trump.” Well, another reason for voting for Trump. Given the millions owed the IRS Sharpton may not even have a valid passport, though if as he implies he is not a citizen but an illegal alien, he should be good to go. According to a political scientist reported by Drudge today Trump has a 97% chance of being elected. I would suggest Sharpton get a head start and leave now! [He and Obama have both been false friends to the blacks.]
relax Glenn, the superdelegates will get Hillary over the line against Trump too … wont they ???
… after all, they are there to rig the nominations so that an unelectable candidate – like Sanders – doesnt somehow accidentally fall in as the DP nominee.
thankfully, there are better minds than ours working on it.
Zzzzzzz Glenn is now an apologist for Uncle Bernie sad to observe …
Zzzzzzzzz typical low-information Hillary supporter sees a chart, can’t focus, and resorts to name-calling.
Typical Sanders rabid cheerleader immature and unable to handle truth that Sanders is an empty old liberal out of his element and not worthy of being POTUS
Truth?
I think you need to look up the definition of that word, because if it were “truth”, the facts that GG presents in this article would have to be quite different… they would have to support your claims when they do not.
Your failure to argue the points, or even to attempt to, puts you into the “wrong about essentially everything” punditry category.
Your comments are substance-free insults. That’s not going to neutralize the income inequality, criminal justice and other issues that drive huge support for Bernie.
wow you really want her stiffly smiling while Trump lays out the dirty laundry list one after another of the scandals and flipflops she’s been involved with? You sir, must be a Trump supporter looking to catch an easy win.
You need to have done something wrong, like promoting wars as HRC has to need an apologist.
It all depends. With Hilary one gets a life long criminal who must by now know almost all the tricks accumulated through history. Machiavelli’s daughter though Machiavelli was not himself a crook. So the Prince’s daughter. With Bernie at least one would be able to hold one’s head up and not slink around and hide in dark corners. A sincere and intelligent man. But not very American and we now know what that means having had Obama, who wherever he was born, is the least American president we have ever had. What about Trump? Well, he has been a successful business man. If he could infect America with some success? Of course for those who are well off or even rich this might seem a minor point. When did America last have a successful business man for president? Not Obama or George W.; not Clinton unless you count graft. George H. W. was in business but nothing very above board. Jimmy Carter, the peanut farmer? Truman, the haberdasher? It might be worth a try. I mean if he could lift America out of the recession that of course it is not in with its ‘recovering economy’. So a thief and worse, another not quite American (is Bernie a dual citizen?), or a wealthy business man? Take your choice. Well, I suppose you could go for a Canadian kid or the other kid from Florida. Neither is qualified by birth but who cares about the little things?
Aha. We finally hear from one of the feverish Trump supporters. Bernie is an American, a citizen of the United States and only the United States.
And your notion that Cruz and Rubio are not “qualified by birth” is bullshit.
Cruz was born in a foreign country to a foreign father,and didn’t come here till he was 4?Definitely ineligible.
Rubio,I have no idea.
Both are sh*t on a stick for America.
Are you a furriner also?
You are the least-American commenter we have ever had.
Natural born citizen: born in the USA of citizen parents. This has been recently stated also by a Harvard law professor. Maybe it’s Vermont but Bernie seems different from the typical American . . . some of his remarks about women fantasizing being raped, etc. strike me as odd for his generation but again it may simply be New York! There is little to debate about Hilary, for example, no self-respecting woman would stay with a rapist husband–his behavior is documented beginning with Oxford and going on to Yale . . . there is so much genuine and documented dirt on Hilary that it is not worth my time going into. Trump is the logical choice given what we have. One need not be feverish to be logical. You are apparently neither well educated nor well informed. Get busy on those fronts.
P.S. Sanders was probably influenced by Freud, the Frankfurt School, Communism, etc. This was not uncommon in his day in NY. Whether he was a ‘red dipper’ baby I do not know.
If you say so. To me, your written mannerism seems foreign. No idea what the hell you’re talking about with ‘red dipper’. You seem familiar with Frankfurt though. Eastern European maybe.
Good comments.:)The moderator won’t like them though.
Actually,I love socialism ,Jesus style,but the commies.ughhh.
What part of the EU are you in or from? I could not be more American and at the same time less. I suppose the less part of me wrote the comment you have been bothered by. But the more part has read your comment and is amused.
Um, that’s “red diaper.” And no, I don’t believe Bernie is such. Moreover, it wouldn’t matter what his parents’ politics were. Trump pere was a Klansman. Whatever else is true of Trump, that does not make him a KKK member — at least not by dint of his daddy’s membership.
You are a deluded fool, and using coded, antismeitic language for Bernie Sanders. Why not just come out with it? “Bernie is a commie kike.”
Nicely put: “Bernie is a commie kike.” I have no way of verifying your postulation. You must run in very different circles than I do. You are probably the product of modern ‘education’ with its emphasis on propaganda. As for Semites for some time Iraqi Kurds were my neighbors and were wonderful folk. The only Jews I know are mostly European with they say some Khazar genes. Israelis seem to be the major anti-Semitic people. Presently only uneducated people use the 19th century misnomer for people who for one reason or another dislike Jews–probably anti-Jewish is proper expression. You might want to do some reading of good books.
Americans are rightly up in arms(not quite yet)at the outsized influence of dual citizen Jews manipulating America into hell holes of death and war for absolutely nothing but human misery, monetary greed,and the expansion of the racist Israeli wacko state.
They are the engine of hatred,not US,not the Muslims,and not the rest of the world.
Enough!
Glenn- Notwithstanding your feelings about Ms. Clinton’s candidacy, it would be only fair to also point out some of her accomplishments instead of her shortcomings only. Please do that and let voters draw their own conclusions, make and assume responsabilities for own their choices.
And what “accomplishments” can she legitimately lay claim to? She…helped gut Welfare as we knew it and drove up poverty for millions of Americans. If that’s something you consider good, then I suppose that can be an accomplishment. But that’s a highly dubious claim. What else has she accomplished? Let’s see…she…pushed for and got a campaign to bomb Libya against the advice of the War Department which warned that removing Qaddafi would leave a power vacuum and destabilize the region, and was so lax in security that people at the embassy were killed who didn’t have to be. If all that was the goal, then I suppose that could be defined as accomplishment, but again, highly questionable. Need I go on?
This one is too good:
That’s been going around Twitter and it really is the best thing ever.
Either that smut was written by benitoe’s bastard chile from a previous dalliance or dougie ‘abandon all hope’ Salzman… idk which.
I do not understand your position, JLocke, as far as why you take the lead and then write the next few comments in response you your comments, etc., but I loved this article. Thank you for the link.
Trying telling that to southern blacks. They’ve dug their heels in for Hillary. There’s no budging them so far, and when you try to engage them, they become even more resistant.
Doesn’t matter, either, as most of their states always go to the Republican in the general.
I think we’re overthinking things. In the past 6 elections, Democrats win when they win the Latino vote. In the 4 Democratic wins, the Democratic advantage over the GOP amongst Latino voters averaged +42% versus +23% in the two GOP wins. Hillary Clinton is up +57% over Trump according to a recent Washington Post/Univision Poll. In this case, it’s not really about the Democratic candidate. Trump is viewed unfavorably by 80% of Latinos, with 72% having a very unfavorable view. They could throw Dukakis up there and he’d probably win.
No, I think you made Glenn’s point perfectly. The Democrats are “throwing up” a Dukakis, although with MANY more Wall Street / Mic / Israel / corporate sponsors, and she’ll “probably” win.
But maybe not.
Sorry, “/ MIC /”
Believing a WAPO poll was your first mistake.Latino citizens like Trump,and the illegals can’t vote.All Americans need jobs.That was your second.
And Dukakis would never win.0-3.
Establishment neocons will never sell support for Hillary to the voters as some grand cooperative end-of-gridlock scheme – while simultaneously ignoring Obama’s SCOTUS nominee. Bernie and Trump are the rock and hard place, respectively, and a corrupt status quo’s caught between them. I have to admit loving the Beltway and corporate media’s current discomfiture.
This paean to Clinton published after last night’s confrontation by a Black Lives Matter activist:
https://www.yahoo.com/politics/the-powerful-eight-month-journey-that-helped-125603248.html
No mention of the confrontation at the fundraiser, of course.
Each of those mothers should read this piece by Michelle Alexander. As well as her book The New Jim Crow.
There are also plenty of white people who simply don’t grasp that Hillary is toxic to their interests. The pendulum hasn’t finished swinging.
So, if these polls are accurate, declaring yourself to be a “democratic socialist” is less of a liability in a US general election than declaring yourself to be “Hillary Clinton”.
Wow! I never thought I’d see the day.
Obomba was called a socialist(obviously not)before 08.and before 9-11,there was no left ,or at least acknowledged,in the USA.Times change.
Its not “undoubtedly true that “racism”” plays any part at all in Trump’s support. Sure, some whites think he might keep them from completely disappearing demographically by slowing down immigration a little, but how is that “racist”? When did simply wanting to exist become “racism” and does that definition apply to all groups or just one?
Bob – ‘Sure, some whites think he might keep them from completely disappearing demographically by slowing down immigration a little, but how is that “racist”?’
Here’s someone who might agree with you:
I can completely understand people being proud of their culture, but the Jeffersons moving in next door isn’t going to make you disappear.
Guilt by association slur?Trump just threw out a KKK guy from one of his rallies.
Duke is a fringe guy,clinging to stupid racial attitudes like an Israeli.But he can still find a nut like a blind squirrel occasionally.Yes,Trumps nationalism is wonderful,compared to the internationalist scum now in charge.
Oops. Gov. Sandoval just pulled his own plug for consideration as Pres. Obama’s replacement for Scalia on the Supreme Court.
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/live/2016/feb/25/republicans-super-tuesday-debate-us-election-live
No loss at all, IMHO. Sick to death of triangulation and trying to suck up to the GOP, if that is what this was. Or if it was purely political, still don’t think it is any kind of tragedy.
I am sure there is another “moderate” justice candidate out there that Obama can drag forward. He ought to find the most lefty one possible, with perfect qualifications, and stick that in their ear. One can dream.
Hah! “Trying to reach across the aisle” foiled again.
‘reach across’ or … ‘reach around’?
:)~
Which one of the GOP placed the horse’s head in Sandoval’s bed last night for him to wake up to this morning? :-)
I heard it was the Bosox,so he’d lose 40 lbs.
Within all the myth and merriment of this election cycle I haven’t heard too much about the climate crisis or the immanent implosion of the middle east. We all know HRC supports Israel and I think Bernie does too. So what’s the answer to these important questions? The GOP doesn’t even think the energy companies need regulating or that they’re a problem. Really, WTF do they think is causing coastal flooding, mega storms, extremes of every kind with loss of property in the billions every year? Then they want MORE money to equip the military to what end? Now the Dem’s will address the climate, at least some, but the military, not so much. My question is where does this all end? I don’t see an easy resolution to these important issues, and then we have the class struggle rearing it’s ugly head. I just see real problems ahead and yes, a real bumpy ride indeed. We’ll see.
Define conundrum:
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-court-idUSKCN0VX1LL Obama (Democrat) Weighs Rep. for Supreme Court [Brian Sandoval]
http://www.biography.com/people/brian-sandoval-20939705#judicial-and-political-career In 2004, Democratic U.S. Senator Harry Reid recommended to then-President George W. Bush that Sandoval be nominated for the United States District Court for the District of Nevada. By the fall of 2005, the U.S. Senate unanimously confirmed Sandoval (89-0, with 11 senators not voting), who then received his judicial commission. Sandoval resigned from that position on September 15, 2009—the same day he announced that he was running for the governorship of Nevada.
…And though he’s Latino, he doesn’t speak Spanish.”
http://www.cnn.com/2016/02/24/politics/hillary-clinton-harry-reid-endorsement/
http://www.oregonlive.com/today/index.ssf/2016/02/nevada_caucus_live_updates_hil.html Hillary Clinton Tops Bernie Sanders in Raucous Race
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/02/24/nevada-aside-donald-trump-and-bernie-sanders-trail-among-u-s-latinos/
Glenn knows better than to make this argument. He knows that general election polls this early are meaningless. We have no idea who would fare better in November. There might be legitimate arguments for Sanders but this isn’t one of them. My feeling is that if you like what Obama has accomplished vote for Hillary. If you’re disappointed with Obama and want to take the risk of starting over from scratch with a Republican SCOTUS and Congress then vote Sanders.
Hillary’s unfavorable numbers are part of the argument GG presented, and are most certainly not “meaningless”.
Hillary winning when most Americans don’t like or trust her is unlikely.
Democrats thinking that only the views of Democrats matters is the problem, because it is independents who actually will decide the election…
… and that is where Bernie’s strengths lie.
Of course, if your “feeling” was or could be substantiated by facts, people might consider your argument, but you didn’t even try.
That is unfortunately typical.
Wow, how did I miss this one. This is an even better argument….forget about trying to argue that the US won’t save money on single payer healthcare, forget about arguing that being able to go to the doctor when you need to without worrying about money is a bad thing, …get this:
The US is too corrupt for single payer!!!
It’s an uncomfortable argument for Clinton and congress to make themselves, so it falls to Ezra Klein to introduce this idea of Uwe Reinhardt and goes like this: You see, we can’t end the corrupt kickbacks and bribery, that denies you all access to doctors and affordable drugs because…..we are all too corrupt to manage any system, even the best medical system in the world!!!!
I love it.
That’s a good point, as well as giving everybody more affordable healthcare, in addition you’d have to crack down on corruption in congress….and since Sanders is a “one issue candidate” how could he possibly do those two things???
People who now need to mortgage their house when they need to pay for cancer treatment, are just going to have to understand that things can’t change because their government is corrupt….What do Sanders supporters not understand about that???
So… its too broken… don’t fix it? I don’t think that is the right way to look at it. Fix the corruption and end the lobbying, and then proceed to the single payer system. It will help fix government by removing some of the corruption… a good thing… and then it will provide a system that is cheaper in the long run for americans and improve our countries standard of living. Kind of a win win for chasing that possibility.
Hillary and Bill are a cancer on Democracy. Wake up America! Mr. Sanders is the only one that is trying to make meaningful changes. Big Media, like CNN (the Clinton Network News) tries to tell people how to think with their reporting and controlled talking PUPPETS, including Mr. Z and The Goebbles News! Just examine the records of the candidates and think!!
On Twitter Glenn just pointed out that so far neocons Max Boot and Robert Kagan have said they’ll vote for Hillary rather than Trump. There will be more.
Mona,
Does this surprise you? Boot and Kagan would be naturally more attuned to HC’s conventional politics.
It doesn’t at all surprise me that they will vote that way — I’ve predicted it in the event Trump were to be the GOP nominee. It does mildly surprise me they are saying so at this juncture.
– “Does this surprise you?”
It’s not surprise, it’s that, the progressive attack on Democrat presidents in past years was that they were “Republican-lite”.
Now, for the first time, in many years, you can make the case that Trump is “Democrat-lite”. Hence all the neo-cons lining up with Clinton.
Zionists voting for the Zionist candidate.
Is it that hard to say the truth?
I guess “I feel your pain” has been replaced by “I see the problems of interconnectivity”!!
Yes, I found it highly unsurprising that four economists that support Clinton would claim that they had economic arguments against Sanders. Their most entertaining point was that the richest country in the world, the US, can’t afford to save money implementing universal healthcare, the way other countries have been for years.
People are angry about Crony Capitalism and rigged games. The Democratic Party has rigged the Democratic primary for Hillary Clinton, who could be the mascot or poster child for cronyism. If it doesn’t turn out the way they hoped, they have no but themselves to blame.
The comment thread to Glenn’s excellent essay is OVER THE TOP. It is replete with astute, well composed, observations and commentary. Coral Nobis, RRHeard, Mona, D, and so many others enriched my understanding of this election extravaganza!!! Thank you all. Bravi!
Thanks! This particular GG column got a lot of the long-timers back here and the quality of comments does reflect that. I’ve been pretty regular again in the last month and had been getting fretful about commenting quality so this feels great!
Agreed, AGGRIEVED – It’s nice to see this quality of dialog and the sharing of informed perspectives, whether one agrees with them all or not. Who wants an echo chamber, anyway?
Greenwald comment threads are way better that comment threads basically anywhere else. Even the trolls make an effort.
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA! Indeed!
That was definitely one of the highpoints of the debates for me, Clinton pointing out that America can’t have a modern health care system, …..because “We are not Denmark”:
I’m almost 59 years old. I suffer from congestive heart failure, atrial fibrillation and am being tested for heart stints. I have no children to leave this country to. I don’t know if I will wake up on Election Day or live thirty more years. So why should I concern myself with what happens to this country or global warming or who is killing whom? For some crazy reason I do. I am tired of being lied to by politicians. I am tired of bailing out savings and loans first, then big banks. I would love to see an honest Abe of a person land in the Oval Office before I check out. I have met Bernie Sanders at the American Legion Hall in Vergennes, Vermont and have followed him since. When I found out he was testing the waters for a presidential run I drew up beside him and will stand by him all the way. If the rest of you want politics as usual with another liar-in-chief who is in the pockets of big money, be my guest. It’s your children … not mine. Blow it for the children if you wish. I will be just fine and I will be laughing in disgust as you complain about the very mess you’ve created. All I ask is that you think things through and try to hear truth over election lies before making your decision. Remember, you children will inherit your choice.
Another disabled Vet for Bernie Sanders
Mr. Dennis Deimel: it’s really good to see someone like you understands the truth! I hope you make it to see an honest government.
A lot of thinking going on around here, both through the article and the comments. Quite refreshing given the horrors of this election cycle. While there is a lot of handicapping going on here (in the horse racing sense of the term), a lot of it is predicated on certain assumptions that I am not willing to accept. So, an alternate outlook…
If Trump has the votes, will the RNC actually award him the delegates? A lot of the talk here is about “electability” on a national stage. Yes, I am being cynical (after all, we are talking politics). With all this talk about the imperfect perceptions / emotional appeals / etc. clouding the abilities of the average lever-puller, do not underestimate the power of their Lizard Brain.
Deep down, I think a lot of people engage in what I call Launch Code Calculus. The idea of Trump with nuclear weapons is about as appealing as the idea of Trump in some sort of diplomatic tete-a-tete (apologies for the lack of proper accents) with Putin. I was going on about electability…
The RNC has it in Rubio, and he is still in the race. As the number of candidates drop, the voting will polarize. It is very possible for Trump to get mud-sucked. My belief is the Rubio doesn’t have to win outright, merely get close enough for the RNC to be able to justify giving the nomination to him.
I think HRC vs. Rubio or Bernie vs. Rubio would be too close to call. In any case, it would not surprise me if we had a Popular/Electoral vote split, again, where the Citizenry gets screwed (again).
One place where I am in complete agreement with other comments is re: down-stream elections impact. As I am expecting the RNC to implode on the national stage, I expect the DNC to do likewise at the regional level.
I do know that I am doing what I always do, and vote my conscience. Which will (probably) be Jill Stein (again). Regardless of your political stripe, please be sure to vote.
With opinions like that I can see why you keep moving around.
Hillary’s outlined a more concrete vision of how she’ll regulate high-level financial transactions.
Pardon me, but I think what you must mean is “muscular” vision.
Uh-huh.
I’ll maybe believe that she will follow through with that “vision” when she releases the transcripts of her speeches given to Goldman Sachs…
Third time trying to post in this section. Why don’t my comments post when I hit submit?
Worked that time for some reason.
If you post multiple links in a comment it hangs up. Otherwise sometimes you just have to give it a few seconds and then refresh.
My prediction for next November; After winning the democratic nomination from Bernie Sanders, Hillary goes on to loose to Donald Trump in the general election.By the next day, the Clinton campaign begins loudly blaming Bernie Sanders supporters for her loss. And during Pres.Trumps one and only term as President, everything he does that bothers Democrats will be used as an opportunity by Hillary campaign supporters to snipe at Sanders and his supporters. This will continue until Trumps one term ends, or he gets impeached.
R.P. McMurphy
Yep. Just like the Pope wears funny hats and bears shit in the woods. It’s almost axiomatic that’s what they’ll do, because that’s all they got–deflection, blame and no ability for introspection or adherence to principle. And they simply can’t conceive of why that is causing them to hemorrhage registered voters.
it’s almost like you’ve seen that one before!
;)
Yet another hysterical rant on why we have to vote for Hillary if sh gets the nomination:
https://www.thestranger.com/blogs/slog/2016/02/22/23606058/hillary-clinton-used-to-be-terrible-on-marriage-equality
To which I replied “Oh bullshit”. I find it really insulting that he assumes that we won’t vote for her based on this one issue. I just lost a lot of respect for Dan Savage.
A politician may be electable and simultaneously be the greatest enemy of the working class.
“Electability” is a concept that the ruling class invents and promotes to get the public to stay focused on the rigged horse race. A public that is led to think about and quarrel over a politician’s supposed electability is less likely to be aware of its own responsibility for class struggle. In other words, lack of awareness about the imperative of class struggle from below, and a preoccupation with ruling class sound bites go together. The common factor in both is the lack of political education, which makes the public vulnerable to ruling class propaganda and other tricks.
Excellent summary which leads to a resounding “NO” to your last sentence.
The polls released today (February 25th, 2016) by Real Clear Politics, show Clinton is ahead of Sanders nationwide by 2+ for the Democratic Presidential Nomination. Also, Clinton is demolishing Sanders in polls taken in states like Texas and Pennsylvania. No offense Glenn Greenwald, but only a moron would write a story like this. Polls are going to fluctuate until election time. Any reasonable person would know that it is way too early in the game to be judging Clinton as being not electable. Besides, if Sanders got the nomination, do you really think a Republican Congress would pass anything he wants? Let’s be realistic here, Sanders is probably one of the most liberal candidates in the history of our nation. Even many Democrats think his ideas are outrageous. Sorry, but this anti-establishment movement has reached the stage of foolishness.
No. That’s one poll, singular. It finds them in a dead heat, and shows:
You claim:
And what is the result if you aggregated all of the most recent polls? What should one conclude about Hillary’s steady decline? Clinton’s lead in PA is approximately half of what it was a month ago.
I see. Unfortunately for you and for the DNC, Democratic establishment views are not especially relevant. Independents are giving Sanders his huge success. They don’t appear to find him “foolish” in the least.
Every two years we have another national election, and every two years more of Hillary’s best demographic dies; every two years, more of her worst demographic is added to the electorate.
The Democratic party is going to adapt to the political realignment happening before our eyes, or it will deservedly die. Young people continue to face a future in which the middle class has all but evaporated, and the vast majority cannot go to college without assuming life-destroying debt with bad job prospects. They continue to see that Hillary’s Goldman Sachs friends get richer and commit crimes with impunity — crimes that harm them.
Then there is the separate issue of black America. Altho Hillary continues to attract a majority of their votes, that lead, too, is in free fall. Significant African-American celebrities and leaders have endorsed Sanders and activists in organizations like Black Lives Matter are announcing for Bernie. Numbers have begun to follow them, especially as Hillary’s grossly racist statements and polices from the 90s are recently gaining wide attention.
You and people like you remind me of the 18th century French nobility hunkering down and yammering amongst themselves at Versailles before 7/14/1789. Denial, in the face of widespread disgust and rage.
I really hope that you understand that blindly aggregating every poll that RCP covers into an average does not give you anything close to a predictive measure.
A lot of polls are poor for a variety of reasons. One good poll, with good methodology and a history of accuracy, is a far better predictor than an aggregate of all the polls in the country.
Glenn should really know better than to use the RCP average for making sound political predictions (if such a thing exists). It also worth mentioning that many of the prevailing theories in political science have been turned on their head as a result of this election. It’s not just the pundits who were wrong, but also people who use good predictive models. Nobody thought Trump could win the nomination, and nobody thought Bernie would be this competitive.
1. I did not advocate that anyone “blindly” do anything.
2. Greenwald cites more than RCP polls.
I didn’t read Greenwald “use the RCP average” for making any predictions.” What he wrote, which is true, is that virtually every poll shows Sanders beating Trump more strongly than Clinton does.
Your belief that no polls can be relied on to guide candidates and political parties, as well as voters, is duly noted. Others, however, do not think all polling data is essentially useless.
Great reply. I’ve been using a similar analogy to describe the paradigm of “Hillary’s worst demographics” – it’s quite apt, in that when combined with the newer voters that haven’t bought into the “we must move to the center to move forward” camp and those of us who never have made that move, they align quite splendidly.
Polls certainly fluctuate, but the trends behind those polls is worth watching. Those trends have correctly predicted close Clinton wins in Iowa and Nevada, and a Sanders win in NH. The resounding criticism of Sanders his entire campaign from pundits and Clinton herself, has been his electability vs. hers – so I think it’s certainly worth looking at trends in polling data.
Those trends show approval & trust decreasing for Clinton and increasing for Sanders, while general election matchups and national polls show stronger support for Sanders. If you’re going to make an electability argument (which as been made repeatedly) it should be made for Sanders.
As for passing legislation in the current congress – I don’t see how Clinton will accomplish much more than Obama has accomplished or Sanders would be able to accomplish. Better to elect a candidate with big ideas who can rally the American people to pay attention and vote to change their congress. This opens up a much brighter future.
Cites polls, then dismisses them by saying “Polls are going to fluctuate until election time”. Argues against points never made in the article. Never heard of Eugene Debs. Remainder is Derp.
“Besides, if Sanders got the nomination, do you really think a Republican Congress would pass anything he wants? Let’s be realistic here, Sanders is probably one of the most liberal candidates in the history of our nation. Even many Democrats think his ideas are outrageous. Sorry, but this anti-establishment movement has reached the stage of foolishness.”
I agree wholeheartedly with this.
For now, the right wing forces have been relatively silent about Senator Sanders, just circulating their ideas among their crazies. They may even be using crossovers to falsely support him as the weakest opponent in states where they are firmly in control (more than half the states!). His theory is that huge turnouts will boost his campaign, but so far turnout in Dem primaries/caucuses is down. (We will know a lot more next Tuesday.) So far, Trump is the only turnout booster.
Sanders’ theory of how to accomplish things that he has failed to achieve in 25 years (or so) of congressional service, is that he will rouse millions of young (and old) Americans to march on Washington, surround the Capitol, and demand revolutionary change. That vision is not how legislation (of the kind that YOU want) will be passed. Nor will the prospect of it appeal to the centrist voters who will determine the outcome of the General Election. And if he backed off on it in the General, he would lose you guys, and still be tarred by incessant video clips of the lamest parts of his explanations.
Immediately after he is nominated, if he is nominated, he will be denounced nationwide by organizations with gobs of money and grass-roots organization as a Socialist, Atheist, Labor-Boss-loving, Radical, Jewish, Damn-Yankee, Ugly Old Fart, who clearly must have been a Communist because he celebrated his honeymoon in the Soviet Union. So many twisted truths or outright lies, against which centrist voters have not been inoculated at all. There will be debates, and he will hunch forward, wave his hand for attention, and say the exact same things over and over again, if Trump ever gives him a chance. It didn’t work for Rubio the other week, remember…
Yes, you can say that I’m old, and that you are so young that you are untainted. Or that your New Left (=Old Left) credentials have been waiting so many years to go wild like this. But I remember how the street confrontations (police riots, actually) in Chicago outside the Democratic Convention turned off millions of voters. Humphrey was blamed for LBJs sins, and we got NIXON. {In retrospect, Vietnam was his tragic flaw. Otherwise LBJ provided leadership on lots of good things such as the Voting Rights Act, Medicare, fighting poverty, etc. But he stepped in with the residual good will generated by the shared national trauma of the assassination of John F Kennedy. He had actually RUN the Senate (and its coordination with the House), so he knew how to get things done. Senator Sanders has accomplished diddly-squat in comparison.
Senator/Secretary Clinton has lots of baggage, but she is still standing tall. I expect that this “Bernie” campaign will fall steadily behind in delegates, and make a loud but ineffective show at the Convention. If I am wrong I will vote for him versus Trump the Unpredictable Showman, Cruz the Devil Incarnate, Rubio the Pretty Face hiding the Koch Network Agenda, and Romney the Retread. I hope that every one of you here will vote for “Hillary” if she is the Democratic candidate. If you stay home, the enthusiasm that “Bernie” has aroused in you will be totally wasted.
I’m fairly convinced that not supporting Hillary is the right thing to do in this case, for many of the same reasons others have already posited here better than I.
I find it quite disingenuous that we are being told that in order to maintain enthusiasm (much less to gain any true progressive progress) we have to “kick-the-can-down-the-road” and support one of the most prolific lean-to-the-right ‘liberals’ in modern political history.
In other words, rather than a non-vote for Hillary being an enthusiasm killer, it will much more likely have the opposite effect, in that if it is the case that Hillary is the nominee and loses, she will have lost the election on her lack of merit, not because of our lack of support.
The constant refrain of putting the onus on the voters rather than the candidate is yet another political “truism” that any real political revolution will finally put to rest – if not in this cycle, then the next.
Hear hear! Call me stupid but I can’t connect the dots on how voting for Hillary Clinton is my moral duty as a Democrat. She’s an unprincipled, neoliberal, personally corrupt, unabashed hawk. If we’re going to have a President who oppresses the poor, expands for-profit prisons, sells out to Wall Street, bashes single payer healthcare, and drags us into more stupid regime-change disasters abroad … I’d rather have it be an actual Republican.
Also she’s a crook. And I say that not as an idle slur but because I’m a corporate lawyer who actually understands the Whitewater scam. Anyone who worked on that deal and didn’t understand it was bank robbery would have had to be brain dead. And whatever else she is, Hillary Clinton is certainly not stupid.
Nope. Sorry. Can’t do it. I’ve held my nose and voted along party lines many a time. But all I see when I look at her is Dick Nixon in a dress.
Santana,Spooky Tooth,ELO,among many other bands have issued songs about her,the evil woman.
Nope. Won’t do it. Nor will most or many Bernie supporters.
Your archaic analysis (Old Left, New Left etc.) demonstrates a total failure to grasp the economic and justice-system realities that drive support for him, and he’s even far better in abstaining from horrific and disastrous foreign policy positions. Hillary is toxic in those areas, and the notion that Bernie could transfer his enthusiasm factor to her is beyond deluded.
No one would believe her if Hillary receives the nomination and adopts every single position Bernie has consistently held for many decades. She’s a hack who tilts to the right in many ways, but who also often changes her views by wetting her finger and sticking it in the wind.
Born in Akron;For someone born in a once prosperous city denuded by globalization,you are very smug about the role of the hell bitch and her husband in that destruction,nafta and cafta the legacy of traitors to the American people.
HRC for prison!
Glen
Glen you got half the story True, “There are a number of Americans who are losers from a process of economic globalization that enriches a transnational global elite.” The Other half, many of us are less concerned with ideology than with restoring a Constitutional Republic that better protects all.
I made up my mind long before the primary process, NO dynasty elite Bush or Clinton candidate. I will vote for Bernie or Trump just to see the political elites grab copies of the Constitution to fend-off socialism or fascism. I will also much enjoy seeing citizen rich, poor and middle class get off their lazy asses, which are now on the line, and vote and become more involved.
We can all relearn the value of the Constitution, voting and striving for a better Government and life. Fasten your seatbelts and hope Constructional Law cushions the rough ride we may be facing from either extreme.
Another anti-establishment conspiracist. Grow up, this radicalism was tried in the 1960’s & 1970’s and it failed because sensible people were in the majority.
Yes, and we all know what those sensible (serious) people think of us plebes.
“Let them eat cake.”
Jerry
Radicalism resurfaces throughout history. The Great Generation saw the rise and fall of fascism and WWII, millions of dead is pretty radical.
I was there in the thick of the Sixties and Seventies saw riots, student rebellions and military service. I have been a student, soldier, scientist and civil servant and have been in some pretty grownup situations.
I believe, as you seem to suggest, that the center can hold but only when the extremes are acknowledged, respected and some of their core truths are considered, moderated and incorporated within a Constitutional Republic. I am an old man but what we have here stretches beyond my experience to a time when the “New Deal” saved capitalism from socialism and its own excesses.
Trump and Sanders and such major polarization are not business as usual, nothing much in living memory, a flashing red light. We will forge a different and collective “New Deal” or get some extremes for some time until we do. Note stagnation in a crisis is an extreme.
Well, no. First, the “hippies” of the 60s graduated to a robust middle class and, even withe the economic problems of the Carter years, to generally favorable job prospects. Middle America could still earn a living wage in many union jobs. There was every incentive to join the Establishment once the Vietnam War was over — a comfortable life could be had by nearly all (whites).
Then came Reagan, appealing to economic populists — especially in the South — who were racist, “law and order” authoritarians and socially conservative. Those populists have long been willing to subordinate their economic interests to their far-right social views.
That willingness has largely eroded, and conservative positions on social issues have largely ceased being a big deal to most people. (Abortion rights are under attack but there is never going to be a return to pre-Roe. And gay rights are won as a legal matter.)
What we have left is an eviscerated middle class and a yawning gap between the ever-richer- and increasing numbers of the poor or lower-class. Economic insecurity looms large and frightening for many, many Americans. This is now THE issue.
The Democratic party will adapt to that reality, or it will die.
For an entertainment break, take a look at neocon extraordinaire Jamie Kirchik bloviating hilariously (in the liberal-Zionist Jewish magazine, Tablet) about Glenn Greenwald and assorted other “regressive leftists” for being mean to Hillary.
Some of the Glenn bits:
Well, yes, Jamie. She is a”a fucking hawk.”
And a bunch of stuff about how all this is related to being gay, and “intersectionality,” including on Glenn’s part. Nevermind that the latter is a political theory about which he’s said precisely nothing.
Jamie, of course, has not previously been known to give a shit about who trashes Hillary, and has spewed about her himself. Anyhoo, the article is a hoot.
Jamie was a friend of a friend of mine at Yale. Here are all the nice things I have to say about him:
We all make mistakes when young, and generally learn to judge people better as we age.
Not sure what you mean. We all make mistakes when we’re young (and old), granted. We don’t necessarily get better at judging (interpretation 1) as we age nor do we (interpretation 2) necessarily deserve to be judged as better as we age. Regardless, based on his writings, I still have nothing nice to say. Keep in mind that I was a hardcore “Paulista” and Kirchik is the one that (re-)broke the racist newsletter story, and I admit I hold a grudge about that. Not that the story was unfair or inaccurate, just that it ran counter to my interests at the time. I didn’t want it to be true nor talked about.
I prolly should have used an emoticon. My reply was just teasing.
@ Mona
Somebody at DKos created a diary over there by linking this piece by Glenn. Same basic crap accusations against Glenn personally were being flung around in the comments instead of addressing the substance of what Glenn wrote. Appeared to be plenty of pushback though. But the Glenn hatred is pretty strong over at DKos most days.
What’s the prevailing sentiment for Bernie over there?
Mostly, with a few exceptions, all in for Hillary.
That’s fucking sickening.
Yep, de man, Markos himself, has had a hard-on for Hillary for a pretty long time I believe.
@ Mona & avelna2001
I’d say two things are happening at DKos. They’ve been polling at Kos (Bernie vs. Hillary) for months. It has held steady at about 70/30 if not higher for Bernie. The diaries being posted by readers in favor of Bernie are prevalent at about the same rate if not higher. But what you are seeing in the comments, is precisely what is going on here–it is Bernie or Jill Stein. The Bernie supporters who say they will line up behind Hillary if she is the nominee are far and few between. I think they get that they are in a fight for the heart, soul and future of the Democratic Party and the old arguments, fear-mongering and guilt-tripping simply isn’t cutting it anymore. They are prepared, at least based on their public statements, to let the chips fall where they may if they withhold their support for Hillary Clinton.
The front pagers, with the exception of Meteor Blades and a handful of others supporting Bernie, are all basically in for Hillary Clinton. But they get mocked fairly hard and regularly.
Does Armando still post at Kos? He’s totally in the tank for Hillary and has been tweeting preposterous things to Glenn.
Video is available of BLM activist Ahsley Williams confronting Hillary Clinton about her record of racist statements and positions at an expensive-to-attend fundraiser last nite in South Carolina:
and hillary tells the young woman…..no one has ever asked her that question
you are the first person to ever ask me that
replying to the question of cllinton calling blacks” super predators” and saying “we must bring them to heel”
and yet the stepping fetchin blacks will still vote for this fraud because bill played saxaphone….and was the first black president ….and wasn’t the birther issue first tied to the clintons…..blacks need to stop heeling to the white oligarchs and those that own them
Not appropriate, counterproductive, and arguably racist as hell.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepin_Fetchit
@ Dustin Neumann
I’m well aware of where the term originated. I’m also aware of the competing interpretations of Perry’s career and the character archtype. I’m also aware of the way in which waitstill employed the term, in context, and I stick by my response to it.
Well,they do exist,do they not?Robinson over at TD comes to mind.Morgan Freeman,what would you call him?
Any black person who supports the Clinton’s are either ignorant or the above.
@ dahoit
No. It is a caricature of a human being or group of human beings. As to whoever Robinson is I don’t know and won’t speculate. As to Morgan Freeman I’d call him a man and an actor with an opinion and reasons for supporting Hillary Clinton that are not mine.
Again–no. Those who support Clinton may have biases, different values, reasons and/or relationships apart from those who support another candidate. Nothing more nothing less and no different than any other human being.
Ignorance doesn’t create bias?
The MSM have propagated the lie that the Clinton’s are and have been good for the black community.
This is the ignorance,as they have been terrible for the black people of this country.
The MSM are the mouthpiece of the 1%,and the only blacks in that 1% are sport stars and crummy toad stepen fetchits like Obomba,Oprah,Beyonce(Black panther approved by the
NFL BS aside)and now Morgan Freeman,god on earth,in a car with a woman not his wife,hypocrite role model for the creep from hell.
Michelle Alexander, author of the brilliant book The New Jim Crow, argues that blacks lack any reason to vote for Hillary Clinton and much reason not to. But, she makes clear that African-Americans have virtually always been divided about what political positions to take. There was the Booker T. Washington faction v. W.E.B. Du Bois, and there are many other examples in various periods of American history. (Alexander clearly sides with Du Bois.)
Morgan Freeman is a very smart and well-read man. I would guess his wealth and class are a big part of his reason for supporting Hillary, but in any event it is not for me, as a white person, to call names at black people who judge their interests as blacks differently than I do. Once, however, they invoke any other issue vis-a-vis Hillary, even if like the War on Drugs it hugely impacts on race, then I’ll smack them around if they are stupid/ignorant/corrupt.
Altho I admit I giggled when a black guy on Twitter posted a picture of Ben Carson as that odious, toady slave-butler played by Samuel L. Jackson in the film Django Unchained. But I myself wouldn’t have done that.
Knock it off. Seriously. You are SO not helping. Madeleine Albright and Gloria Steinem insulting women Bernie voters is bad enough. But this is a whole other level of nasty.
This stuff is complicated. Take it from an actual multiracial Bernie voter from an extended family with both black and Jewish members … all voting every possible way you can imagine.
Yes, Hillary has said some deeply problematic things about black youth, unemployed mothers, and even her new BFF Barack Obama. Many black voters remember those statements very well, I can assure you, especially the insults to President Obama. But plenty of them will still decide to vote for her anyway — for perfectly legitimate reasons, including — are you sitting down? — that they agree with her on specific policy issues like the economy, health care, and foreign relations.
African-American voters are not single issue voters any more than women or latinos or any other group. We all have brains and we all get to use them as we see fit in the voting booth. It’s called democracy.
HRC is a lying pos garbage scum evil woman.Any black who supports her is either a paid off whore,ignorant or just wants a woman POTUS because she’s a woman.And yeah,LGBT hypocrites whose sexual affinities get in the way of logical and rational solutions by their animus to religion and others values.Nazis in disguise as liberators.
As far as Latinos,citizens should hate her,but I’m sure the illegals warm to her hypocrisy.
Don’t. Just no.
Would the Wall Street funded Democratic Party throw an election rather than allow their patrons at Goldman Sachs be prosecuted for malfeasance? I think so!
Dear Southern Poverty Law Center:
I bring to your attention a front organization for a hate group that you should perhaps start to monitor. It’s called the GOP, and it has been around for many years, and in the course of that time flirted with some dangerous ideas that it was able to sugarcoat with coded language and other front groups, allowing plausible deniability to some of its more prominent members. One of its members some decades ago, by way of example, never openly used epithets but made reference to “welfare queens driving cadillacs” as a way to attack social programs that helped people of color and the economically disenfranchised. Not long after, another prominent member implied, in order to appear “tough on crime” during an election, that African-American men were coming to rape white women.
Over time this hate organization (largely based around white supremacy) has metastasized like a cancer on the body politic into further front groups. These include more talk radio haters than you can count, a propaganda front group known as Fox, and other front groups, including the Tea Party, water-carriers such as CNN, MSNBC, CNBC, ABC, CBS, NBC (none of whom have ever called out this group for its hate or racism), Fred Hiatt’s WaPo editorial page, the WSJ’s editorial page, the Cato Institute, the American Enterprise Institute, the Project for a New American Century, and local militias (one of which recently took over a wildlife refuge in Oregon). Note, this is only a partial and small list.
Lately this front group has been taken over a number of state legislatures, governorships, even the Congress. Some of the members of these legislatures – such as Issa of California – rather ominously have publicly implied that the military should start to work against its own government. Also of late, members of the front group have assessed the situation and decided that they don’t like how brown and progressive the country is becoming (one suspects a president of African descent particularly exacerbated them) and so are openly throwing off their cover as purported political or news organizations and advocating a number of policies that appear genuinely quite dangerous for the continuity of two centuries of free governance here in the US.
These include but are not limited to: open incitement to violence; open calls to violence; boasting about acts of violence; advocating racism and bigotry to the point that some members are calling not just for a wall on our southern but also northern border; the ethnic cleansing of the US through mass deportation; the open use of nuclear weapons; the elimination of rights for women and LGBTs; the closing of places of worship of entire groups, specifically (but ultimately not limited to) mosques. All of this can be copiously documented via news video and social media.
This front group has been particularly adept at exploiting tribalism. Taken collectively it is extremely powerful, controlling virtually the entire media, corporate, and military sectors of our society, and many – far too many- of the political and judicial offices. So as you attempt to investigate, legally persecute, check, arrest and imprison its members, you will have a great deal of work on your hands. I would recommend class action against it, since it’s responsible not just for the toxic environment in our politics, but has also been complicit in all manner of illegal activity. This includes active participation in gun deaths (e.g. it is a big supporter of the gun industry), cancers of all sorts (it’s a big fan of environmental degradation), wrongful death and imprisonment of minorities (choose here any number of policies you care to cite – say indifference to police violence against blacks, or drug enforcement that is designed only to help the prison industry and hurt minorities), torture and war crimes (see Iraq, Afghanistan, and Gitmo), and the loss or damage of American cities and infrastructure to human driven climate change which it denies (see Katrina, 2005).
Perhaps doing something dramatic – say going on to Morning Joe and arresting one of its hosts on air for complicity in treason for helping a candidate who wants to willfully overturn parts of our constitution (specifically, off the top of my head, the first, fourth, and eighth amendments) – would give the country the wake up call it needs before we head any further the way of Italy in the 1920s. I would recommend, if you can get the country’s attention that way, that you could maybe then start to arrest more of its members and supporters, and perhaps start a movement that, as in post-war Germany, would then outlaw the party, its affiliates, and then, as was the case in Germany, move the country to a more free, egalitarian, and socially progressive place, and make any political party or politician think twice before supporting policies of violence and force against both individuals and sovereign states, and before supporting anything other than policies that protect and nurture our citizens in such a way that they can undertake the pursuit of happiness that was promised at our foundation.
Yours,
Herr Weisse Rose
Mr. Greenwald
How is it that you can accuse Americans (constantly) of racism while using racist arguments to undermine global growth, redistribution of wealth and reduction of poverty?
“……..Then there’s the particular climate of the electorate. While it’s undoubtedly true that racism and ethno-nationalism are significant factors in Trump’s appeal, also quite significant is a pervasive, long-standing contempt for the political establishment, combined with enduring rage at Wall Street and corporate America which – along with the bipartisan agenda of globalization and free trade – has spawned intense economic suffering and deprivation among a huge number of Americans…….“There are a number of Americans who are losers from a process of economic globalization that enriches a transnational global elite.”……”
This is fear mongering at its worst. Indeed, it is a classic example of “ethno-nationalism” and “racism” on your part. While it is undoubtedly true that globalization enriches the “global elite”, it is also just as true that hundreds of millions of people have been lifted out of poverty from globalization and free trade. Playing on the fears of white America that our jobs are going overseas to yellow and brown people is racist at its very core. Americans buy products made in Vietnam, China, India, Japan, South Korea, Bangladesh and elsewhere providing jobs for third world people. I suppose starvation is the alternative for those people, Mr. Greenwald?
Free trade agreements benefit the less fortunate brown and yellow people. These agreements have been attacked for decades by the trade unions and their leftists supporters. But the right has joined the fun. It was Ross Perot who used those same fears to launch his Presidential bid:
“…….We have got to stop sending jobs overseas. It’s pretty simple: If you’re paying $12, $13, $14 an hour for factory workers and you can move your factory South of the border, pay a dollar an hour for labor,…have no health care—that’s the most expensive single element in making a car— have no environmental controls, no pollution controls and no retirement, and you don’t care about anything but making money, there will be a giant sucking sound going south……….when [Mexico’s] jobs come up from a dollar an hour to six dollars an hour, and ours go down to six dollars an hour, and then it’s leveled again. But in the meantime, you’ve wrecked the country with these kinds of deals……”
Finally, the Intercept also seems to be a beneficiary of the “Global elite” – supported by funding from the billionaire, Pierre Omidyar.
Donald Trump couldn’t have said it any better, Craig!
When Sanders implements his, across the board, $15/hr. living wage … capital/manufacturing will probably flee to China!
*don’t stand so close to me … https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNIZofPB8ZM
Yes indeed. Craig seriously says he not only approves of torture by the U.S. government, he thinks it positively good. He also won’t — again, seriously, this is his stance — say anything approving about the 4th Amendment.
No doubt he would cheerfully vote for Trump. Except, Trump has said he would be neutral on Israel-Palestine. That could very well be too much for the Israel-worshiping Craig.
That’s right Mona! … Trump has said he would be neutral on Israel-Palestine!!!
*it will be interesting to see if Craigs head explodes from the internal cognitive dissonance.
I still think Craig, deep down, loaths Trump&Dump and is still clinging tenaciously to a Rubio comeback, (whether he knows it, or not.) helplessly hoping …
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doIEwzc6k_k
I don’t loath Trump, but he is not my favorite guy. He is taking advantage of the political climate in the US. I will absolutely vote for him before Hillary or Bernie, but I prefer Hillary over Bernie if the Democrat wins.
Summers will vote for Clinton,Rubio or Cruz.Never Trump.He hates independent goyim,only lickspittle arouses his interest and libido.
Uh-huh, well, Craig just posted that he’d vote for Trump over Hillary. As for the “goyim” crack, Craig has said he is not Jewish and I see no reason why he’d lie about that.
I wouldn’t believe serial liars if they paid me-(are you intimating this clown never lies,sheesh?) Self hating goyim then,sheesh.
Didn’t you just a short time ago say that you don’t engage me except for a rebuttal? That was some rebuttal Mona. I have no idea how to respond to that well put together argument. Nice job!
Lots of countries that don’t participate in globalization have had substantial growth in recent times. Heck, even countries that are isolated economically have grown their economies. Mexico hasn’t done better than South American countries due to NAFTA, for example. So the general point is arguable.
Now, if something is beneficial to some and not others, but its intentions are nefarious, is it still good? Imperialism is an example. Imperialism clearly benefits some at the expense of others. Its motivations have to do with accumulation of power and wealth. Globalization is similar. The intent of globalization is two-fold: (1) Create a huge global market for corporations. (2) Enable the exploitation of cheap labor under lax regulatory conditions.
EVERY country has been influenced greatly by globalization. Remember the British Empire and how it has created all the wars and problems in today’s world? It’s fantasy on your part to deny the importance of globalization to every country on earth economically. The Chinese and Indians are just the most obvious beneficiaries of globalization.
I’ve got my finger on the pulse of ‘electability’.
You can’t rob a thief, Glenn. When The Donald gets done with a Hypothetical Hillary there wouldn’t be anything left but a greasy spot and an empty pant suit. Unlike Goldman’s Sack, Trump still has all his receipts for services rendered and would have no problem releasing them … money well spent.
*it will most likely be listed on his, hypothetical, Tax returns under ‘greed is good’ expense
(I can see the headlines now: GOTE Beats LOTE in Landslide.)
Now, if Bernie Sanders can, somehow, surmount Hillary’s commanding Super-delegate lead and the votes are actually counted, he would have a few problems as well in a Trump&Trump linguistic circus show:
1. Sanders is basically an honest person masquerading as a Democrat. Compared with Trump’s ruthless competency in party affiliation, Sanders will undoubtedly be portrayed as a ‘babe in the woods’ candidate.
2. Sanders is marginally poor, ragged and a bit disheveled … and who wants to be poor, ragged and a bit disheveled? If America is the ‘land of opportunity’, Bernie must have missed the boat.
3. Sanders is way too nice for this kinda work.
Other than that, the media still has it as a ‘Trump-Sanders Fantasy’ …http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/24/opinion/campaign-stops/the-trump-sanders-fantasy.html?ref=opinion
Marginally poor?His niceness and honesty are tempered by his total support of Israel,the Gaza massacre and his history of empire enablement .
Is he better than 99% of other pols re that situation.Yeah,a little,but he’s no Corbyn,and certainly not above reproach.
I’d vote,and will,for Sanders over that criminal hell bitch though.
Thank you. A lot of us have been pointing these facts out on social media, but we really needed the voice of a journalist to get it out there and make people see why Bernie Sanders is the more electable of the two candidates.
The data clearly shows he’s the better candidate. And it also makes sense when you look at who votes for him in Vermont. He wins majority Democrats, majority Independents, and something like 25% of Republicans in his state. If that translates equally to a national scale, he’s going to be more viable in a general election than someone who only attracts moderate and conservative Democrats.
Plus, he’s already the only candidate who has caused Trump to change his position (on wages) during the primaries.
The logic on this should be straightforward: If Republicans nominate an ostensibly anti-establishment candidate, Democrats should as well, or face very predictable consequences.
I wonder whether Greenwald’s head would explode if Hillary won. He invests so much in his anti Clinton propaganda. I feel I am watching Fox News in November 2008 bashing Obama.
Meh, well before Fox got into the Obama-hating game, Team Hillary ’08 was perfecting the art.
Greenwald’s observations are hardly a form of “bashing.”
Clinton’s fraudulence is her history and her words are only
as substantial as any other form of toxic gas.
You cannot bash such toxic gases because there is such
little substance within its permeable and changeable toxicity.
You have to acknowledge the type of election year we are in plus the incumbent White House party. In 2008, Republican president George W. Bush had a low job-approval percentage—which didn’t reach 40 percent once after the 2006 Democratic pickup wave midterms—for the Iraq war, the massive job losses, and economic meltdown. There was no way a Republican was going to hold the White House with Election 2008.
In 2016, “income inequality” is No. 1 and people want fast, not incremental, change dealing and solving that. The middle class is being taken down, bit by bit, and the country-club like Washington, D.C.. bubble of career politicians taking the marching order from their owners isn’t a help to the suffering.
The Republican and Democratic voters have this in common. Their articulation and perception of it is not the same.
What to do?
Try to get a fresh breath of air.
Republican voters are choosing the candidate who they think can do them some good.
Democrats are poised to nominated the candidate who didn’t start moving on the issue until after she saw the entrance polls from Iowa—and, more alarmingly, the exit polls from New Hampshire.
I don’t think this election will be difficult to predict—especially after the nominees are determined.
Another solid article along these lines:
http://static.currentaffairs.org/2016/02/unless-the-democrats-nominate-sanders-a-trump-nomination-means-a-trump-presidency
On Bernie Sanders’ economic program, see economist James Galbraith versus Krugman et al on rt’s “Boom Bust” with Edward Harrison (>16:25 thru 23:00):-
http://www.rt.com/shows/boom-bust/333560-australia-wages-sanders-economics/
I live Sanders very much but he is too old. Just look at the average human life expectancy, the guy can drop dead at any time.
Yeah… it feels like we are hosed. Left Democrats don’t like Clinton because she’s been in the bag for corporations and imperialism forever; the public at large won’t vote for her because of sexism. But Bernie, whom I support, is an old guy who looks like an old guy. He might live to be 100 and be sharp as a tack the whole time. But I think that’s his biggest vulnerability in a general election. Conservative democrats don’t like him, and the public at large won’t vote for him because of a combination of ageism / sensible concern about having a president in his late 70s. So what seemed laughable now seems possible: President Berlusconi. erp I mean Trump.
What if Bernie picked Elizabeth Warren as his running mate? Even if his health stands, he’d be preparing the way for her to run on her own — THAT would be a first woman president I could be pretty happy about.
that would be great.
the candidates we have to choose from shows it is more important to get a balanced congress so they have to work together to get anything done that is why I think congress is far more imortant than who is president.
I’m just laughing…GO TRUMP..!! :-)
You know what’s really funny is that Trump is hardly a Republican at all aside from official affiliation in this Presidential race. His history is strongly Democrat and the things he has historically supported for a long time are pretty liberal. He’s running as a Republican and as such is labelled as the most evil candidate this country has ever seen but if he were running as a Democrat right now, I wonder how much of this article would be written or talked about. Don’t get me wrong, he’s a total slimeball, but the same could be said for just about everyone else running on both sides. Myself, I’m neither a Democrat nor a Republican; both parties sicken me and do nothing but enrich and empower themselves, even if they go about it in slightly different ways. It’s okay though, I fully expect that even if the race is close, the Democrats will pull it out in the end even if only because they have proven themselves far more proficient than Republicans at voter fraud.
Please link proof that any national election, for any candidate, by either party, has ever been decided much less affected one way or the other as a function of “voter fraud” recognized as such under existing law.
I’ll wait.
I don’t know if it was quite enough to sway the entire election, but the last presidential election had voter fraud to levels I have never seen in my lifetime anywhere else, all committed in the name of Obama. I’m not going to do your homework for you, but it shouldn’t be hard to find reports of multiple districts voting 100% or even over 100% in Obama’s favor. Heck, it’s unheard of to even have 100% of people in a district voting at all, much less for a single candidate. Simple fact is that all such instances from the 2012 Presidential Election went in favor of Obama, not a single one that I could find went in favor of Romney. I’m not taking sides, just stating the facts.
Voter fraud? What exactly is it that you’re referring to? Voter suppression is not voter fraud and the Republicans are the experts in that area.
Please refer to my reply to rrheard posted above. As to voter suppression, I have no doubt Republicans have pulled dirty tricks to sway things in their favor, but you might find some contradiction to your claims in the fact that in past elections Black Panthers have posted themselves outside of polling places to intimidate voters who they didn’t agree with. Like I said above though, nobody does actual voter fraud like the Democrats do. I think it may be due to the fact that Conservatives are more likely to want to just be left alone whereas Liberals are more likely to take action to ensure their political objectives are met. Just take a simple look at how many activists there are on both sides and what side is more likely to stage a huge protest and it’s pretty clear that there’s at least something to what I’m saying. I don’t know how diehard you may or may not be for one side or another, I’m just asking for some objectivity and an honest look. Also like I said above, I detest both the Democratic Party and the Republican Party and both have helped dig us into the hole we currently find ourselves in. My name, Done With Everyone, isn’t just a clever moniker.
CURRENTLY sanders is testing better. however the republicans have been smearing hillary pretty aggressively.
bernie may not fare so well after the republicans go after him.
(and the republicans definitely seem more interested in attacking hillary now.)
Sanders had a strong blue collar message that is tolerable to moderate republicans and independents, and he’s scandal free. With HRC the right has its pick of scandals that it can dredge up, not to mention her ties to the establishment and allegations of influence peddling. If HRC gets the nomination, half the democratic party will be more inclined to stay home and not vote, and republicans and independents will line up around the block to vote against her.
Ignorance lives and Stupidity rules. I blame the the 4th Estate. It has become the 5th wheel.
spot on
I had to make this argument about a month ago to a hysterical friend who supports Clinton because he doesn’t want a Republican to get elected. Electability should not be the reason to support a candidate or not, but even for those who are overly pragmatic and apparently are short on ideals, there’s no reason to support Clinton.
On the other hand, this hysteria about Trump is laughable. We hear this BS about whoever the Republican candidate is every four years. Reagan and Bush II were both much worse than Trump; at least Trump opposes the investors’ rights treaties, aka free trade agreements like TPP, which means he has a much better position on this huge issue than Clinton or Obama. These agreements are a huge issue that the left is trivializing when it gets hysterical about Trump.
Illiberals heads are full of notions and shibboleths,all denied by the reality of our present alleged liberals being mass murderers.
Trump has killed no one,has not destablized the world with war and trade steals that diminish all involved,wants better international cooperation in this world,and wants to eliminate terror.
But the hysterical hypocrites accuse him of being crazy?
His support is non party based.Many many democrats support him also,because their eyes aren’t blinkered with ideology or stupid social divide issues,and we love our country,know its on the wrong track,and want to steer it clear of Zion,our mortal true racist enemy.
Trump is a xenophobic, racist, climate change denying birther.
As an American mother, I still want to retain the to determine what gets injected into my child; despite how much I support Sanders and/or Clinton. Please don’t make me vote for that lunatic. Tell the stories of Poul Thorsen, John Krahling , Joan Wjlchowski and William Thompson. Please sir please I beg you. and thank you regardless.
Birther;Imagine the outcry from the MSM,or the republicans, if Obomba had actually been born in a foreign country like Cruz back in 08.
The MSM likes Cruz.
Thanks Glen! As always. You are a great service to all of Humanity.
If the dems go with Hillary, I’m voting for Trump.
I want Bernie. I want his policies. I dont want business as usual politics anymore. I want real change. I want a political revolution.
If we don’t start a political revolution by choice, I will play my Trump card and initiate it by force.
Maybe we need to hit rock bottom and let it all burn before we wake up from our apathy.
For me, this voting year will be the first win-win scenario I’ve ever had the luck to be apart of because whether its Sanders or Trump, America is going to get what it deserves.
“Many Democrats will tell you that there has rarely, if ever, been a more menacing or evil presidential candidate than Donald Trump.”
Well, guess who, said:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/22/opinion/cranks-on-top.html
Dislike Krugman for not supporting Clinton and (seemingly) dissing Sanders, but he has been telling anyone who will listen about the horribleness of “the rest of the GOP candidates”.
Election 2016
With a man named Bernie
Our hopes once again rise
Just as MLK, once marched
The dream has never died
It is the past of our history
However, not where we stay
As strengths in great numbers
Carries hopes in great waves
All lives once again matter
Many broken and tattered
Within our message we say
Were tired of living this way
We have dreams and desires
Yet are so very, very tired
Still we stand for what is right
We will not give up on the fight
Against Wall Street and more
Never again to close this door
We want equal justice for all
More education to stand tall
A better life and better health
Better distribution of wealth
My heart filled with such pride
The American Dreams still alive
Made possible by one voice
Noted in history our choice
Dedicated to Bernie Sanders
& The American People!
by Terry S. Bradley
Copyright © Protected
Great questions, Mr. Greenwald. There is no guarantee she could win against Trump.
Forgot to mention this good Matty Yglesias piece in VOX. He VOXsplained how Sanders is the future of the party, worth reading in the context of GG’s piece here.
http://www.vox.com/2016/2/9/10940718/bernie-sanders-future-demographics
Not a big fan of Yglesias but I thought this was solid.
Couple of things I’ve been saying to friends who happen to be Democrats regarding electability. First is how much better Sanders does among independents. He beats HRC 3:1 so far. That’s a major difference in performance among the largest voter category in the country.
There is also the issue of campaign performance. HRC simply doesn’t campaign well. Not built for it, doesn’t like it, isn’t good at it. Obama famously said that people just didn’t like her. Axelrod recently noted on CNN that her highest polling numbers occur when she starts a race–she never goes higher, regardless of time, energy, money.
Perhaps for this reason her deal with the NY State Democratic party was that she’d run for senate if they didn’t run a primary candidate against her. A total neophyte no-name medical doctor managed to get on the ticket anyway, and damned if he didn’t pull nearly 20% of the NY vote against her.
And the thing is, while she has a much more establishment friendly career than Sanders…
He has a history of working through tough campaigns, raising his numbers, and actually compromising with Republicans in a way where he gets what he wants while giving them a victory they can be happy with.
Clinton not only has no real record of successful negotiation, she has never won any election that I’m aware of that was contested. She won her senate seat because Giuliani dropped out. Lazio was a lightweight.
Virtually every major accomplishment of Clinton’s came through connections and appointments. And she is good at working friendly, non-hostile connections. She’d have made a better DNC chair than Wasserman Schultz. I don’t think Secretary of State was a strong position for her because it involved dealing with hostile opposition (she goes into siege mode) but she’d have made a fine chief of staff, if she could have embraced being a pivot power wielder rather than the face of a movement. She has the right kind of profile to become a vice president who wins the presidency as an incumbent, ie. if she joined a Sanders ticket. And I think he’d be open to that and she might well be running for re-election in 4-8 years if anything happens to Sanders or perhaps with his consent if he could get some of his major policy initiatives through. I could almost imagine him going so far as to agree to resign in exchange for his top four or five policy agenda issues. He could probably say to Hillary, “Get the Democrats and enough Republicans to make this happen in a way that won’t be easy to reverse and I’ll nominate you as V.P. and I’ll step down and hand the presidency off to you once my policy agenda is very firmly in place and hard to backtrack on.” And I think that would be her best shot.
The initial election is always going to pose major problems for her and most of her methods of dealing with those problems make her more unlikable.
Well, she did win the NY Senate–give her that.
I think she’d make a horrible VP, personally. Don’t want her anywhere near the WH. Speaking of VP, I am intensely curious about the status of Warren. I don’t understand why Sanders would not get Warren on board as his VP ASAP. VP choices usually come out in July-August time frame, but, given his unusual campaign, I see no reason why Sanders should wait. Of course Warren might decline for good reasons. But were I Sanders, I would do whatever it takes to get her–and put her on the ticket immediately. Don’t wait.
The pubs are the biggest bernies of all, they are feeling the bern.
your point is?
Hillary will beat Trump in the national election better believe it
Greenwald’s wrong here. If you want to decide who’s most electable, there are better methods than the two crude techniques he mentions: (1) looking at current raw polling numbers and trends and (2) listening to pundits. Real campaign professionals have ways of determining electability that are better than either of those two options.
To decide whether Clinton is more electable than Sanders or vice versa, one good thing to do is to run polls and focus groups testing out lines of criticism on these two candidates. Once you get data from that, have a real campaign professional walk you through the results, taking into account each candidate’s strengths. If a Clinton supporter, or Clinton herself, wants to make the case that she’s the more electable candidate, then they need to arrange for the public to view that kind of information. They haven’t done that yet, which shows to me that they probably don’t have much of a serious case about electability. And supposing Clinton people offer us a case for her superior electability that turns out to be based on slanted or unreliable data — well, then, other people will have a chance to demolish their case and show how slanted or unreliable the data are. I don’t personally know whether Clinton is more electable than Sanders or vice versa — all the major-party candidates have substantial liabilities in a general election, and the kind of crude polling info that Greenwald points to isn’t too reliable. Still, I do know that Clinton people haven’t yet made an honest, detailed case on the subject.
But in any case, electability shouldn’t be the main standard. Those who make their decision based on who’s electable in November are, I think, allowing their thinking to be diverted by biases such as an imprudent short-term focus on the current election cycle rather than long-term concerns, and an absorption in the hype, slogans, inflated fears, and group passions of Dems vs. Reps campaigning. A key question for the long term is: Do we want the Democratic party, and its coalition of supporters, to be influenced more in the future by Hillary Clinton and the people behind her, or by Bernie Sanders and the people behind him? That has implications that are more important than who’s most electable this November, I think.
Agree with you in part. A lot of the commentary out there is diversionary and dangerous–almost as if it was intentionally designed to prevent people from doing the simplest thing–Voting Their Interest.
That said, general electability, and voters measure this in all sorts of crazy ways, is a valid concern for any voter, imo.
“Real campaign professionals”…you mean like the ones Clinton has working for her and have failed her miserably? Blowing 50 point leads nationally, 40 points in Iowa and 30 in Nevada? Those are monumental leads that have been blown by people who are campaign professionals running polls and focus groups. The reality is they are out of touch with the middle and low class, and because of it their message isn’t resonating.
It can’t focus group changing positions on core values and hiding speeches.
Well, campaign professionals don’t always help a candidate who’s in trouble for other reasons. They haven’t succeeded in masking the fact that Clinton serves the elite, has honesty and character flaws, and doesn’t care much for the principles that many in her own party believe in. But let’s not drift off topic — the issue was what’s the best way to determine a candidate’s electability, not whether campaign professionals are able to make the candidate win. You’re right that campaign professionals can’t always make a candidate win, but that’s not very relevant to the point we were discussing — are campaign professionals helpful in determining how electable a candidate is? On the subject of determining electability, campaign professionals aren’t perfect but they’re the most knowledgeable people around. So, if you want to determine who’s most electable, it helps to ask experienced campaign professionals. Sanders has liabilities too where electability is concerned — he’s more honest than most candidates and has good criticisms of the economic system and politics, but his loyalty to socialism gives him blind spots, and most Americans distrust the idea of democratic socialism.
I would generally agree, way too much of the reporting is about the “game” of politics and not the issues, and that has a big impact on voter priorities as well, but I think in this case, with Trump being such a potentially dangerous nut, keeping him out of office is a valid priority. And like I’ve been saying for two years she is unelectable, too much baggage, no charisma.
So making nice with Russia,taking out wacko heretic thugs,(who are actually Zions divide and conquer apparatus) bringing jobs back to America,and ending illegal immigration’s terrible economic effect on working people in America makes one a dangerous nut?
The people who have been leading US for the last 30 years are the dangerous nuts,idiot.Look around at the wreckage,in human tolls,and the legacy of evil it entailed.
OK so I skimmed though some of the comments, I don’t have all night. Something to keep in mind is how much change could Sanders really bring to our messed up system? More than Hillary? Maybe not given the system. What we need to keep in mind is all the down ballot races, these may be more important in the long run. Real change starts from the bottom up not the top down. I agree with Glen and think Sanders has a better chance.
Full disclosure, I’m a Bernie supporter but think it’s long past due that we had a female president.
@ Breadman
I think all Bernie Sanders supporters agree with this sentiment unequivocally: “it’s long past due that we had a female president.”
If Elizabeth Warren had been convinced to run she would have won in a landslide and nobody would be engaging in this fight. But make no mistake this is a fight for the heart and soul of the Democratic Party, and quite frankly Hillary Clinton is not the future or the solution.
That’s what galls so many of us to be referred to as “Berniebros” or misogynists for not backing Hillary Clinton. The problem isn’t that Hillary Clinton’s gender, the problem is Hillary Clinton’s past, her record, her judgment and her policies past and present. If she’s the nominee I think it is going to be a bloodbath for the Dems up and down the ticket.
Well said, rr. As Someone who is married to a Dominatrix and believes in Female Supremacy, I long for a female POTUS. I agree with your comment about a bloodbath, and this will no doubt tear apart the party for many years, if not eternity.
@ subbob
Okay each to his own. I’d love to see a woman President of the USA. But not a GOP woman POTUS or one who doesn’t stand for my values and/or what progressive/liberal values should be. Having said that, I cannot in good conscience vote for Hillary Clinton.
That makes two of us who won’t vote for her, and I have been voting since the days of LBJ. My son is inexplicably for Clinton, but I am trying to educate him. My background is in psychology, not law, so as a non-attorney, I wanted to add my congratulations to your win, if I may.
Thanks subbob. Appreciate it. Keep working on your son, you never know maybe you can get him to come around. If not, as for everyone, it’s important he cast his vote based on whatever rationale he finds most compelling.
Here’s a thought … why don’t you ask your wife to play POTUS??? ;-)
Joanne : That is an excellent suggestion, thank you. Unfortunately, she is not a US citizen. She has more integrity in her little toe than HRC has in her whole body.
” I agree with Glen and think Sanders has a better chance. Full disclosure, I’m a Bernie supporter but think it’s long past due that we had a female president.”
But it does not matter until who gets the Democratic nomination! “Who has a better chance” is nothing but “Look into my crystal ball…”
Only if Clinton and Sanders are both on your ballot in November will you get to chose “the female.”
And don’t get pissed by what I just said… If Sarah Palin was the only “female” (better word being “woman” I would think) candidate would you vote for her simply because of her gender?
I’m for Sanders, but if he does not get the nomination… what?
Nothing matters until November!
The Secret Service threw out two Black Lives Matter activists at a Hillary fundraiser tonite in South Carolina — the women had contributed $500 for the right to attend.
Mona: Thanks for this. My only question is why did it take until tonight? Maybe they will stop treating her with kid gloves, after all.
I think it took so long because the facts didn’t start getting out and really considered until Michelle Alexander wrote this in The Nation: ? Why Hillary Clinton Doesn’t Deserve the Black Vote: From the crime bill to welfare reform, policies Bill Clinton enacted—and Hillary Clinton supported—decimated black America.
It exploded on social media, especially Twitter. After reading it I immediately acquired Alexander’s outstanding book, The New Jim Crow. It lays out the problems afflicting blacks and their community — and the responsibility for these burdens — in a calm, comprehensive and devastating manner.
Alexander’s indictment of Hillary went pretty viral.
I read Michelle’s excellent piece as soon as it came out. They might consider leaving copies of that column all over SC.
So, what’s your point? “Ooooo! Clinton and her supporters….” what? Our so much better that Sanders’? (Probably not.)
Or are you trying to bring up shades of Trump rallies…
Just say what you mean. Smugness may make you feel good — like insults — but just muddies any attempt at discourse. (Patting yourself on your back in front of us all ain’t much to be proud of…)
Um, what?
George Carlin said it best-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXhZyAOuyhE
A new Reuters/Ipsos poll shows Sanders would stomp Trump, and that Bernie has “his biggest lead in the presidential race so far.”
http://www.commondreams.org/news/2016/02/24/new-poll-shows-sanders-ahead-clinton-widest-margin-yet?utm_campaign=shareaholic&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=socialnetwork
If you combine the supporters of
Hillary Clinton, Donald Trump, Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio, and John Kasich
all together in their celebration of ignorance and illegalities,
you get a profile of the voters in the fake U$A who
are largely proud of the domination of corrupt monetary policies
and the defiling global violence upon which it depends.
Sanders also cannot be portrayed as not having been complicit.
This corruption is typical of Imperialism and the fact is that
the vast majority of voters in the fake U$A are
lacking what is necessary to stop this global trainwreck.
The stripping away of human rights and environmental
quality and the increasing use of violence will not
be turned around by the democrats and the republicans.
All of this seeming upheaval of the “establishment” is
going to be in the service of that very same establishment
because the real religiously driving forces of monetary
aggrandizement and militaristic arrogance are still central
to their versions of patriotism.
On top of this is the fact that these perversions are commonly
found in many nations and are used as the primary reason
for more of the same
in the delusional belief
that “we” need these corruptions to overpower “them.”
Good luck.
No.
Double naught.Delusional illiberal drivel.
Trump is the only guy who says he will improve foreign relations(Which are at the nadir right now kids)end destructive trade steals,and promote American sovereignty,something none of the other toads of Zion pos crumb scum have uttered.
Elizabeth Warren.Sorry,nice lady,but as with Stein,any move from Zionist orthodoxy would be squashed an a millisecond.No gravitas whatsoever.Road kill scrapple.
But try as they may they can’t and won’t kill Trumps run.as the more they attack him,the more the people like him.They even hate Fox now!Hallelujah!
Hillary will not win in the general election if she is nominated. The public does not want an establishment candidate as Glenn alluded to, but what’s more, a significant percentage of the voters energized by the Sanders campaign absolutely will not vote for Hillary in the main, no matter what.
What Democrats who are bandying about this issue of “electability” don’t understand, is that nominating Hillary is tantamount to throwing the election.
If you’re going to talk about electability based upon polling, you need to do the work to understand and explain (a) which sorts of polls (and which questions) actually indicate likely outcomes; (b) the differences between “national adults,” “registered voters” and “likely voters” and the tendency toward accuracy associated with each type of sample (and how the various polling organizations make those distinctions); the meaning or “margin of error” and how to read those numbers; the meaningfulness (or lack thereof) of averages of polls that don’t take into consideration the component polls’ MOE; and the degrees to which all of these factors change over the months of an election campaign.
There is no indication that any of this essential work has contributed either to the column ATL or the comments below it.
Are you claiming all or most of the polls cited make the errors you describe?
If not, why should Glenn have assumed they were?
What are you talking about, Mona? Are you asking whether I claim that all polls have margins of error (sampling errors)? The answer is, emphatically, yes, as the briefest study of the subject would inform you.
I think you may be springing to Glenn’s defense, as you often do, more or less automatically, without having the slightest idea what you’re talking about.
Please go do the research suggested in my post and then, maybe, I’ll be willing to give your replies further attention.
Doug, I asked you two straightforward questions: Do you claim that many or most of the polls Glenn cites are unreliable for some or all of the reasons you listed?
I would not expect a good answers, I’ve seen this type response a few times to polls that Clintonites do not like, they use FUD to try to doubt the polls not in their favor. It’s a standard tactic, another, which Doug employed as well, is they attempt to put the burden of proof on others plus moving goal posts. It’s a dishonest way to operate but they have little shame.
Eerily similar tactic have been applied by the Clinton campaign to avoid releasing damaging highly paid Wall Street speech transcripts also, in fact the similarities are striking. I can no longer in conscience vote for Hillary and am switching my vote to Bernie, he appears to at least have integrity and is not bought off.
Just FYI, Doug isn’t posting that silliness about the polls and Glenn Greenwald’s purported deficiencies because Doug loves Hillary. He, quite sensibly, cannot abide her.
But he thinks Bernie is insufficiently pure for a decent person on the left to vote for him, that a vote for Sanders is immoral.
He clearly answered the question: the data provided by the article do not tell the whole story as many factors are missing in those polls. Therefore, those data are not sufficient to conclude unequivocally that Sanders has a better chance against Trump than Clinton.
Your answer is already known: ” You are wrong”.
The article isn’t unequivocal strawman, as many variables are noted, but so far the data has been sufficient.
The polling method cited in this article has been fairly accurate in the first four states.
Off by a few points, but winners correct every time.
I was hoping they were wrong in Iowa and Nevada, so I’ve been watching this closely.
So, actually, you are wrong, not Mona.
And DS should have acknowledged that reality too.
That one word — “unequivocally” — is the operative one, and is not what Doug posited. As for his litany of deficiencies in the polls and Glenn’s relying on them, if Doug thinks Glenn, I, and the vast majority of high-information readers here do not understand what a margin of error is, well, that’s pretty silly. No sentient being could have been reading the news for these past decades without constantly running into that concept.
In other words, virtually everyone takes that factor as a given.
We also do understand that the way questions are phrased, the criteria determining the subjects chosen to be asked them, all of that matters.
Nevertheless, these are reliable polling organizations, and multiple of them show Sanders beating Trump more decisively than Clinton could. they further show Hillary spiraling ever-downward in these polls, including in her approval ratings.
She’s on a downward trajectory — which is also what happened to her in ’08. The longer people see and hear her, the less they like her.
The “Democrats”, as an official front for the one party, don’t really care about who wins the election. We saw it with Gore and then again with Kerry. They just care that eternal war-mongering for empire, and profiteering by Wall Street and the plutocrats are maintained, come hell or high water.
Not to blow my own horn, but some of my fellow commenters may find this cool–I just won my first appeal at the Oregon Court of Appeals in the foreclosure arena. A victory for the little guys and homeowners!
I wrote the briefs and my colleague handled oral argument. I’ve got two others pending and one before the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals on the same exact issue which bodes pretty well for me and our clients [and the status of foreclosure law in the state of Oregon at least from the borrower’s perspective]. Here’s the decision if anyone is interested:
http://www.publications.ojd.state.or.us/docs/A154115.pdf
Not surprised, and congrats. Your comments have been insightful here. Keep up the good work!
Thanks Mass Independent and Dan Goodman. Appreciate it.
Congratulations on your victory!
And again not to blow my own horn, but the appellate court sided with me on every single argument I made following the exact legal analysis I argued should be followed in constructing the relevant statutes.
If you don’t follow foreclosure law in Oregon or anywhere else, this is a pretty big deal. Lots of cases in Oregon got disposed of employing the idea (which many judges bought into) that a provision, ORS 86.770, acted as an absolute bar to any post-sale challenge to a non-judicial foreclosure sale that had been completed and where a “trustee’s deed” issued.
We always felt that was wrong as a matter of longstanding Oregon law about how to analyze statutes and within the overall context of Oregon Trust Deed Act, legislative history, and prior Oregon Court of Appeals and Oregon Supreme Court decisions.
And it looks like I/we were right. I’m sure the big boys will take this one up to the Oregon Supreme Court but we’re pretty confident it will hold up.
So again–go “little guys” and self-pat on the back for me. At least if I flame out as a lawyer I know I have a little bit of legacy in one area of Oregon law. Me and my colleague Thomas Cutler were also arguably the first one’s to overturn a sale post non-judicial foreclosure at the forcible entry and detainer [e.g. “FED”] stage of the proceeding. For those who aren’t lawyers, there are two separate “rights” when you take out a mortgage or employee a trust deed in a home purchase–title and possessory right. Both have to be severed or terminated. First legal title and then the possessory right. Once a lender or its successor-in-interest (i.e. the “true present beneficiary”) obtains a judgment of foreclosure non-judicially or judicially, it has to sever the homeowner’s possessory right employing either the FED process or an action for ejectment. I won’t get into the finer points, but the FED is preferred by lender’s when available because it is generally a very “summary” hearing, quick and cost-effective. It’s how landlords evict tenants primarily (again both rights have to be severed in a lease or rental agreement as well, because you have a limited “title” right in a lease as well but it’s known as a “leasehold interest”).
Not trying to brag just thought I’d share because it’s kind of a big deal for homeowners in Oregon who have been foreclosed and prohibited from challenging the legality of their non-judicial foreclosure sales.
Nice! Congrats to you and all the homeowners who will be helped by this!
Congratulations!
Thanks Northwestwoods.
Congratulations rrheard, that is great work.
again sorry for the apostrophe issues–tired, happy and typing too fast without reviewing
@rrheard
Congrats! It is very nice to see a victory in this area against the behemoths of corporate America.
As far as tooting your own horn, I say go for it, and I also take a longer view of what you’ve accomplished – that the mechanisms of law in place can effect change (even now) and that it’s almost always from the bottom up (no pun intended) where that change inevitably becomes the standards which we govern ourselves.
Thank you – and keep up the good work!
Congrats! Those lawyer highs are cool.
Thanks Mona. Not to say I’m not proud of my work and worked hard to win (together with my colleague), but it really is more important for Oregon homeowners than it will ever be for my reputation. Like I said, whatever happens, at least I know I did a little good as a lawyer.
Bravo, rr! Congrats! Kudos! And, WayTaGo!!! Sweet.
Bravo! Bravo, rr! Very proud! May you have many more victories like this! You are a great writer and very informed person so I am glad you are on the side of good.
Bravo, RR!
Hah! I hope GMAC and their co-conspirators felt and heard the full force of the slap. And for anyone who is unsure, in the wake of the recent foreclosure omnishambles, this is potentially a very big deal.
And it’s especially good news that these things are going (if they go anywhere) to the Ninth Circuit.
You go, lazy lawyer! ;^)
Thank you Mona, PI, Doug Salzmann and TalleyHoGazeHound–appreciate it. I think your guys’ opinions matter more to me than most of my colleagues.
I had a similar feeling when the brief I researched and almost entirely wrote, and in which Glenn (of course) did oral arguments, in the 2nd Circuit won the day. The Opinion was written by some woman named Sotomayor who I decided was extremely wise.
Kitt and AtheistinChief — thank you. I appreciate the kind thoughts.
@ Mona
I have no doubt you and Glenn made a formidable team. You’re both whip smart, hard working and I think really have a good sense of legal analysis, and ultimately “justice”. So I’m not surprised Justice Sotomayor agreed with you guys on whatever the issue. I’m sure you wouldn’t have hoisted up on appeal if you didn’t think you had a solid appellate case.
I like to do oral argument on cases I brief, but Thomas was senior and was the primary attorney of record so we agreed he’d do it. Honestly, I think Oregon Court of Appeals and Supreme Court usually pretty much have their minds made up based on the written briefs and on their own clerks research and analysis, and the justices internal dialogue when they hash out the cases amongst themselves. As you know it’s a bit opaque. I usually don’t think oral argument on appeal makes or breaks you, unless of course the issues are first impression and/or really really cloudy as a function of precedent, the proper legal analysis to apply, or the underlying procedural posture is really screwed up and at issue in which case there can be some persuasive oral argument.
I haven’t read the decision yet but I will. I’ve read the several comments you posted in this series, so I not only congratulate you, but also thank you for doing such important work and accomplishing good outcomes for so many who will be positively effected.
A bit too esoteric for me, so I couldn’t finish reading it. But Congratulations!!! You’re a fuckin’ Rock Star!!
Congratulations for excellent success!!!
Who else could blow that horn with the such a tuneful melody?sheesh.
Trump scares me, not at all; he is a very smart guy and a professional actor to-boot who has been hugely successful in his own life mostly due to what he learned from his hard working uneducated father, not Wharton BS. What scares me is that the act he is running is so successful with the unwashed who understand they are being screwed over but can not figure out, by who or what needs to be done. I am and will continue working for Bernie but should Clinton get the nod, I will stop working and if I could (I can’t) would vote for Trump. Yes, I read his book and I read Bernie’s also and I believe that Bernie is better than the American unwashed deserve, a real mensch. My best guess is that there will be a couple of more “terrorist” mass killings in the land of the brave—NOT and the people will vote for the one purporting to protect the little darlings best…that would be Trump. You are a truly pathetic people; going around the world, killing and destabilizing for more than a century but never expecting the wogs to blow back; well, now they do and rightly so. Three Trillion dollars wasted on Afghanistan and Iraq according to Joe Stieglitz and you have been beat by IEDs and children suicide bombs; you are pathetic, go home and stay there, the world will be much better off without you and POTUS Trump.
What do you read the Guardian?That wellspring of total BS?Its worse than the NYlying times.
Yes,Trumop says he will take out terrorists.Othewr than that,he is the least bellicose of all the other candidates,BS included.Bernie thinks IsUS aren’t on our side.He supports the Israelis,the thugs of JSIL,a worse cult than IsUS.
It’s all zionist propaganda,every creep pol is in their pocket but Trump.
Mr Greenwald,
You have written so many articles saying that there is practically no difference between Republicans and Democrats that I have almost come to believe it is true. Now what got you to change your stance? In fact, the only thing you can point out is that Mr Trump does not really belong to either of the two despicable parties, so you should celebrate his ascendance. No?
Mr Trump should become the President and there is really no reason for you to create a ruckus about this. Have you ever noticed a pendulum swing? It starts to return to the other end only after it reaches the end of its swing. Mr Obama took us almost there but not quite. Both Mr Trump and Mrs Clinton are capable of doing the honors, so we should expect better times once they have done their damage. What say? Then we may have our JFK again.
-H
If Trump does get the nomination, the Dems will have to drag out Bill Maher to savage him. Maher gets him going, frothing at the mouth will spittle flying in all directions. That would be great fun to watch. Maybe the Dems should nominate Maher.
Maher is as much of a vile frothing bigoted idiot as Trump is. Best not to dignify any of this any further.
I know what you infer, so, they’re made for each other.
If the DNC steals the nomination for Hillary Clinton and she runs against Donald Trump, he will wipe the floor with her over her Wall Street support, and her refusal to provide speech transcripts. Donald funds his own campaign and hasn’t received Wall Street money for speaches.
http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/us-politics/us-presidential-election-2016/winner
She is easily the most qualified person, young people listen to rubbish online and make judgments which are baseless. Give the woman a chance and listen to her policies and record after taking out the noise.
Meanwhile, a very clever preview of coming attractions. Winter is Trumping.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0tE6T-ecmg
Oh God that was hi-larious. Will send round.
amusing and well done
So glad I was able to catch up on Game of Thrones so that I could fully appreciate that. Genius.
@Shenebraskan
“Interesting” is almost too mild a word. We’re watching a yuge shake-up in American political dynamics. Movements are growing, demanding to have their issues dealt with; the old alignment of interests in place since Reagan is no longer applicable.
The divide crosses races. The Michelle Alexander announcement to the old guard of the civil rights movement is literally: “Adapt or die.” Blacks under 45 are not yet turning to a candidate like Bernie in the high numbers whites are, but I strongly suspect that they will. About 1/3 already have.
Fierce racism is in high relief on the one hand; on the other, socialism (or at least social democrat) is losing its poison status. Certainly “liberal” is now not a slur.
Wow.
As more and more Blacks join Danny Glover and Spike Lee to support Sanders I believe we will see a sea change away from Hillary “The War Criminal” Clinton toward Bernie Sanders.
At least he had the guts to proclaim at a recent debate: “And no more perpetual wars!!”
We will NEVER hear the Neocon/anti-BDS Clinton utter those distasteful words!!!
Yes, but the sea change may not complete in time for this election. It may take another 4 years of my parents’ generation and just behind dying off, and another 4 years to generate more younger voters facing bleak futures that include overwhelming student debt. As well as for more blacks to understand that the Clinton Democrats are literally lethal for their community.
Spot on, Mona. Fortunately, all indications are that things will change towards less illiberal policies, but as noted, unfortunately the voters may not have hit rock-bottom yet.
Regarding the much maligned position of “Bernie or Bust” – sometimes a little tough love is needed in any relationship – and with this electorate, a combination of entrenched older/ideological voters and the un-awoke and mostly non-voting newcomers may very likely need a much stronger dose of reality (or death, as noted) to hit before they make better choices.
Those of us who have been living the “dream” of trickle-down economics and the corporate control of our democracy have already had more than enough.
I recall taking this Antonio French schmuck to task on twitter during the height of Ferguson episodes because he quickly exposed himself to be a fraud. His hire by and endorsement of Hillary Clinton confirmed my suspicions.
Apologizing for messing up on closing the tag. Damn it.
Robert Reich is one pundit who agrees with you, Glenn.
http://robertreich.org/
Note today’s “The End of the Establishment?” column, in which he compares Hillary to Jeb Bush. Both had a certain establishment inevitability (and the uncomfortable distinction of having former presidents campaigning for them).
Dems had better get their act together, fast. Trump is like a genie out of a bottle and now seems to be unstoppable.
@ Coram
Thanks for posting that link again. I spotted it and linked it earlier but it is definitely relevant to this discussion.
And this by Jeb Lund at Guardian:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/feb/24/donald-trump-victory-nevada-caucus-voter-anger
It’s interesting. Reich was in Bill Clinton’s cabinet, he says he’s known Hillary since she was 19, yet here he is in the Bernie column. And he knows what it’ll take to stop the Donald, and it isn’t Hillary.
Jesus coram, it’s as if Trump took his rhetoric straight out of that novel.
Check out the 1949 film as well. Broderick Crawford in the role of a lifetime as a Trump/Huey Long demagogue rising out of nothing. Scarier now than ever.
Yup, I’ve seen it — it picked up an Oscar I think. Quite the opposite of the 2006 remake which was an utter bomb. That I chose not to see based on reviewers I trusted.
I sense a Democratic Party 1968 Presidential Election repeat.
Thank you, Glenn. It’s comforting to know that their are still a few journalists out there that are not interested in simply being plutocratic mouthpieces.
Great work and 100% correct. The cynical Baby Boomers are going to throw this election to Trump if they don’t wise up.
The campaign is theatre. The real work is done behind the scenes by computer programmers who tweak the votes to fit the goal. Don’t expect anything different in this play!
If the Republicans commit suicide by nominating Trump, the Democrats can select Daffy Duck as their nominee and they’ll still win the presidency.
Come July, if Trump is the candidate, the media will start airing the skeletons from his past they’ve been carefully hanging on to for the last 6-12 months and he’s toast.
Wishful thinking.
Among other things, the media already tried to dump on him (after they tried not taking him seriously). It didn’t work. People loved him all the more.
The media haven’t even started.
– Trump has ties to the Russian Mafia through his convicted business partners
– His flip flops on every issue, including immigration, are never mentioned.
– He was a Hillary supporter, and even paid her to attend his wedding
– He prides himself as being promiscuous
– Lots of his old business dealings have been very very shady – including using eminent domain to seize houses from old ladies to build parking lots/casinos.
Once the media goes wall to wall with this stuff, he hasn’t got a chance. They know they can crush him anytime they want. They made him, they can tear him down.
As for wishful thinking – unfortunately not. I’m conservative, and the last thing I want is a race between 2 authoritarians (Trump vs. Clinton) or and authoritarian and a socialist (Trump vs Sanders). How the heck is one supposed to choose among that?
Various versions of this have been predicted and none have come true. Every attack on Mr. Trump seems to make him stronger. His supporters are not fazed by his skeletons, but rather enthused.
If anything can hurt him, it would be chipping away at the false perception of him as an outsider. Unfortunately, the more the media attacks him, the more he appears to be an outsider.
Trump has already said everything and done everything that should make him unelectable, and still he’s coming. Four bankruptcies, three divorces and a string of toxic soundbites and still he’s coming. Don’t assume he’s toast.
And as for cartoon characters, the GOP had Elmer Fudd in the person of Jeb Bush. And look where that got them.
http://rudepundit.blogspot.com/2016/02/note-on-election-stop-being-goddamned.html
Tonight on one of the pundit shows (Don Lemon?) it was mentioned that Trump actually blurted out that he would not take sides between the Israeli’s and Palestinians.
Of course within a matter of nano seconds he had to walk that back and assure those whose heads were on the verge of exploding that he would support Israel.
@ Anon
I wouldn’t hold your breath is all folks are sayin.
They committed suicide 36+ years ago but that’s not really the point. If it’s a Trump/Clinton race, it’ll be decided by how many people hate the other party’s candidate more. And hate races tend to diminish voter turnout. And it becomes anyone’s game.
But Cons generally don’t hate Sanders with anywhere near the amount of ferocity that they hate Clinton; they don’t hate his spouse for lying about getting a beej in the Oval; he has no Benghazi hanging over his head. He would presumably swing more right-leaning undecideds who can see through Trump’s fairweather friendship.
A Sanders candidacy would also diminish Trump’s anti-establishment quality. Donald Trump has been anti-establishment since June 16, 2015. Bernie Sanders (I-Vermont) has been anti-establishment for 50+ years.
I can see you don’t care for Hillary. Actually, she would be better off not winning because they’ll just pick her bones for four long years. We’ll have to hear all the rhetoric over and over again on cable news.
Half the party doesn’t trust clinton, and republicans and independents will line up around the block to vote against her. Sanders has a strong blue collar working-class message that is tolerable to everyone except those on the far right.
And we’re being screwed over yet again by Obama, without, I might mention, Sander’s approval or support:
http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/fda-now-officially-belongs-big-pharma
Yeah and Pres. Obama is trial ballooning the idea of floating Gov. Brian Sandoval as his Supreme Court nominee. And of course his defenders are all arguing eleventy dimensional chess or some nonsense like that.
My take is that Pres. Obama likes Sandoval’s worldview and feels he’s well suited to sit on the Supreme Court. Nothing more nothing less.
Yep, I read that. I would say they’re two of a kind.
Amazing, but not unexpected. Obama would rather appease the right, than have an actual progressive on the court. The guy is a total sell out. But we saw that a few months into his first term. This, with TPP, should guarantee that his legacy is shit, although there is enough now to make it shit in my book.
It was obvious as soon as he began naming his cabinet.
Actually it was obvious when he endorsed Joe LIEberman in CT. But I wasn’t paying much attention to him all along. That endorsement alone left me cold, but I voted for him, unenthusiastically. No donation, no work, just a scribble on the ballot. And I took a picture of it in the both.
It makes no fucking sense. One thing Hillary can use to scare people into turning out to vote against Trump in the general, is Supreme Court appointments. If Obama nominates a Republican who opposed Obamacare as unconstitutional what the fuck difference does it make?
Unless Sandoval is known to be pro-choice. I suppose they could say on “the only issue that matters” Sandoval is good and the GOP wouldn’t appoint a nominee like him.
@ Mona
It makes perfect sense if you accept that Pres. Obama isn’t a “liberal/progressive” in any “economic” sense of the word. TPP is his baby. He doesn’t give a flying fig about organized labor. He’s Hillary Clinton in every meaningful attribute policy-wise. He’s a moderate i.e. Republican-lite. Why should it surprise anyone he would try and shore up Hillary Clinton’s support in the Latino community by nominating a person of Mexican heritage to the Supreme Court. I mean it’s not like Sandoval is even a liberal (he’s GOP) in an almost infinite pool of highly qualified liberal judges at all levels of the federal bench fitting the bill.
I think the only reason Pres. Obama hasn’t openly supported Hillary Clinton (yet) is because if he did this early while it is still a race, he’d ensure that Hillary Clinton would lose. His legacy would be that he alienated much of the “progressive” base of the Democratic Party that is needed to bring Hillary over the finish line–assuming they don’t defect or vote Jill Stein anyway.
More importantly I think this is who Pres. Obama is in a nutshell.
Given the amount of support Bernie Sanders has, I think Obama’s already alienated much of the Democratic Party’s progressive base; they won’t be fooled by false “hope and change” again. If Hillary Clinton wins the Dem nomination, especially by suspicious circumstances (as has been the case in Iowa and Nevada), I suspect they’ll lose a lot of progressives for good, as I’ve seem many state that they will support Jill Stein in the event Bernie Sanders fails to get the nomination. This article and attached poll seem to confirm such a trend: http://www.politicalpeopleblog.com/this-is-a-conversation-that-every-bernie-sanders-supporter-needs-to-have/
@ Joshua H.
That’s my read. That poll had a combined 66% would either vote Dr. Jill Stein or write Bernie Sanders in. That’s no bueno for Hillary Clinton. If that sentiment holds until the GE she’s toast.
The Obama/Clintons don’t care about the “Democratic” party’s “progressive ” base. And on the contrary, like Charlie Brown with Lucy and the football, a huge number of people will be fooled by “hope and change”, again and again and again
Bah. The President could nominate the reincarnation of John Marshall, or Robert Jackson, or Louis Brandeis, and the nominee would go no where. And now the Flying Turtle Monster says he might not hear the nominee of the next president if s/he’s a Democrat. So, on top of everything else, we’ll have a constitutional crisis and maybe a defunct Court. They need six for a quorum, don’t they?
Glenn and everyone –
Good article – I really appreciate how you’ve covered some of the problems with this dangerous egomaniac.
What is extremely concerning to me is: “… there’s the particular climate of the electorate. While it’s undoubtedly true that racism and ethno-nationalism are significant factors in Trump’s appeal, also quite significant is a pervasive, long-standing contempt for the political establishment…” How this gets translated into support for this stain on politics I don’t know. He’s a billionaire developer. He’s VERY MUCH part of the establishment! I also thought Milton Wiltmellow’s and Sebastian’s comments about his supporters (and Americans) loving bullies – and subscribing in some respects to authoritarianism were quite good.
As a “mixie” (or “moggy”, being a cat lover) I find the bigotry underpinning this campaign particularly despicable. Even the head of Cato Institute noted how bad it was. How can we not be concerned about this?
Then I am furious at the media for covering all his little tantrums and antics. I feel they’ve enabled him to get this far and they’re not helping by plastering him all over, IMO.
But there’s nothing like calling things as they are: “Many Democrats will tell you that there has rarely, if ever, been a more menacing or evil presidential candidate than Donald Trump. “Trump is the most dangerous major candidate for president in memory,” pronounced Vox‘s Ezra Klein two weeks ago.” I don’t know about others but I really share that view. I thought GWB was bad… but this menace. I’m really, really deeply concerned. After all, GWB got elected and what a debacle that was!
I wish more media folks and political folks would really speak out on how dangerous this nincompoop is. And people need to wake up and get a clue.
Mr. Sanders may have fewer negatives than Mrs. Clinton or Mr. Trump, but that’s only because he is less well known. However, that’s already changing, so it’s only a matter of time before he becomes unelectable too.
But the DNC mustn’t despair. They just need a stealth candidate. Americans are now governed by secret agencies, with secret agendas authorized by secret legal memos. So why not have a secret President?
The DNC, on the eve of the convention, announces they have uncovered irregularities in the campaign spending of both declared candidates, and disqualifies them. The delegates are then given ballots marked ‘Secret Nominee’, who after the ballots are counted is declared the unanimous winner. Then all the Democratic office holders get out on the hustings and tout the virtues of the Secret Nominee up to the Tuesday after the first Monday in November.
Secret Nominee wins in a landslide.
C’mon, we’re talking the DNC here and their Secret Nominee would just be Hillary, again.
Ooohhh yeahhh…
I predict DWS will love your suggestion.
I thought that already happened with Dick Cheney.
Trump worries me less than Cruz and Rubio. Cruz and his bluster about nuking Iran is especially odious. I don’t like any of ’em but if you strip away Trump’s craziest rhetoric, like The Wall of Mexico, banning Muslims from entering America (which he will have a very hard time implementing) he sounds less insane than the other two clowns. Not sane, but not quite as insane.
Hillary Clinton. Is she any better than the GOP goons? I’m not convinced. Her foreign policy stance is hawkish, she accept Israel as inherently virtuous and good and says threatening things about Assad and Iran…none of this is good. She claims to be in favor of reining in Wall Street but has a record of doing the opposite…and lets Wall Street pay her quite handsomely for her time. No, I don’t trust Clinton at all.
Which leaves Bernie Sanders. His big weakness is his ignorance of the world outside America’s borders and he is unlikely to play hardball with Israel. Like Trump, he probably won’t be able to implement his more “radical” ideas, eg single-payer healthcare, and he’s not going to save America from itself, but even with all his flaws he comes out ahead of Clinton.
Based on my careful analysis a Trump vs. Sanders election is the best case scenario. And it seems to reflect what Americans want.
My Claim
1. The establishment doesn’t want Sanders or Trump to win
2. Trump refused to rule out a third party run.
3. The establishment will nominate Clinton and Rubio/Cruz Regardless at the end.
Thought:
If trump runs third party and sanders runs third party, we might just have an overtime round for the presidential election
You may be right. Ron Paul won the Repub primary in Maine in 2008, but the Republicans just refused to acknowledge him and gave it to Gramps McCain. In 2010, the Democrat’s candidate for governor was sinking fast, while the Independent Cutler was within 1 or 2 points of the TeaTard Paul LePage. The Dems went door to door to try to convince voters to NOT vote for Cutler, a former high ranking member of Jimmy Carter’s administration. LePage got elected, twice now due to the Dems machinations, and thousand of poorer Mainers got thrown off of Medicaid AND Food Stamps.
Both parties are rotten to the core.
I could see the egomaniac Trump pulling many votes from the Repubs if they deny him the nomination and he runs Independent. Maybe they’ll invent some Super Delegates just for the cause. If so, I advise the Dems to let the process play out without Super Delegates, because there is no way in Hell I’ll ever vote for the corrupt, fascist Hillary Clinton. And I get the feeling that there are many others like me.
There are others like you. I’m one of them.
At one point I considered holding my nose and voting for her but the addition of Kissinger put that idea to rest once and for all.
The Kissinger fan girl thing didn’t bother me, because she’s been all for intervention and screwing up other countries for years. It was seeing the video of her talking about young black men as “super predators” that finished any smidgen of idea of voting her off with me. She takes hundreds of thousands, million$ of dollars from the real “super predators”, banks, big pharma, Walmart, health insurance rackets, there is no one whose grubby money she won’t gleefully take. The more I learn about her, the more I rule out any possibility of ever voting for her, even if The Donald or the Cruz is the Repub candidate.
The Dems should smarten up and throw in their lot with Sanders. But they won’t, because, they are (1) not very smart, and (2) clinging to power and perks is more important to them than good governance, and the welfare of the people.
I cant quite say “we” are smartening up as I registered as dem for the first time in my life (prev independent) so that I could caucus for Bernie.
I will phone bank, I will give what little money I can. I think people including democrats are waking up for the first time… People are going into an election with their eyes open.
That’s just not going to happen. If the DNC undermined the democratic process like that, the electorate would revolt, and independents and republicans would join them. The RNC would literally face a mob of armed tea party conservatives if they ignored Trump’s success and gave the nod to Rubio anyway. That scenario is simply not an option and both parties better fully understand that.
I never considered that in a nation bashing China for suppressing information
and fair reporting , a nation that feels righteous enough to send delegates to other countries to oversee free and fair elections, I’d be so mistrusting of our own.
That is EXACTLY why I will continue to explain why Social Democracy is the essence of any moral, just, civilized nation and why ours is not. Senator Sanders speaks from a soul and heart, along with a wise head. He’s a man of peace and honor. It will be a delight to help him reform a nation pointing guns at itself and blaming everyone else!
What if the FBI and DoJ made Hillary go poof – figuratively speaking?
Why would they? They are protectors of property, just as she is.
You should just repost Nathan Robinson’s Current Affairs piecefrom yesterday, analyzing this. I agree with you, but his analysis is way more in-depth.
http://static.currentaffairs.org/2016/02/unless-the-democrats-nominate-sanders-a-trump-nomination-means-a-trump-presidency
It has nothing to do about electability, it is all about maintaining the status quo. That was the purpose of the Clinton and Bush placeholders. The powered elites will risk everything to keep what they have, so yes they will risk it since the status quo candidates will lose on the GOP side. Let’s face it, when it comes to the establishment, there is no difference between the Dems or the GOP, just different sides of the same coin.
Exacely. Three things never change, regardless of the party in charge: support for Wall Stree, support for military adventures abroad and free trade agreements. It doesn’t matter how these issues poll, it doesn’t matter that the majority of people oppose them. This sickening troika endures.
As a strong Bernie supporter I had initially thought I would vote for Clinton if he didn’t win the nomination. After paying close attention these last few months I now realize there is no way in he** she will ever have my vote. And I’m far from alone in this. An unscientific survey of Sanders supporters shows a strong majority inclination to either vote Green party, Bernie write in, or Trump.
And the refrain is pretty much the same on voting for the lessor of two evils, it isn’t going to happen. People aren’t going to be manipulated out of fear into voting for Clinton because of the Supreme Court and other concerns. They would rather see the D’s lose big time and be forced to reconstruct themselves into a true progressive party than deal with 8 years of fake liberalism and business as usual.
Ironically, I think Trump being the probable Republican nominee is adding to this. People figure he’s to the left of Clinton on several issues and most likely less of a warmonger, who will disrupt the established system.
I wonder if the polls showing how far ahead Bernie is of Trump has taken all of this into account? I’ll bet not, I’ll bet that after the true fallout has hit voters in the event of a Clinton nomination the plus Trump numbers would be much greater.
Have a feeling Glenn wrote this horse-racey post a bit tongue-in-cheek, channeling his inner Chris Cillizza, such as it is.
Using the mainstream pundits’ language and framing to deflate their conclusions is brilliant. “It’s possible to argue that electability should not be the primary factor. That’s certainly reasonable: elections often are and should be about aspirations, ideology, and opinion-changing leaders.” I mean, come on! Funny.
Thanks Glenn.
Every endorsement helps, and your logic is convincing as always.
You people are delusional that think Bernie could win the general. Republicans are trying to help him win so they can face him. They have yet to rain down all the attacks they have in store for him because they want to get Hillary out in the primary. Sanders would lose royally like McGovern. How we forget that it was the Clinton administration that brought more people into the middle class than any other time in this countries history? Do we forget it was under the Clinton administration when American’s got a proper raise? You people saying you would vote Trump are willing to go back to Bush style tax cuts but worse because Trumps tax cuts for the rich is Bush’s on steroids? You would be willing to let a egomaniac have access to the nuclear codes and let him set foreign policy? You people who support Sanders would leave Sanders fighting in the senate against Trump policies? It makes no sense at all! Sander’s will endorse Hillary and likely get some of his plans embedded with hers and will campaign for her. If you think Sander’s would rather have Trump to win you are fools their complete opposites except maybe on trade. Sander’s would be fighting tooth and nail against Trump polices. Hillary is fighting to get the nomination yes is the DNC favored to Hillary side yes but they don’t change the primary results the people still decided and that’s the bottom line.
Trump, Clinton, Sanders, Dem, or Repub… In Brazil they say “tudo acaba em pizza”. In the US it means more torture and mass murder binges.
Prove me wrong. I’d like that. (But in the meantime, I will never hold my breath waiting for Americans to do the right thing.)
@ Stan
Smart position to take. America doesn’t really have a very good track record of “doing the right thing” throughout its history: near extermination of indigenous people; slavery; war, war, war, war,; WWII (good thing arguably); war, war, war, coups, coups, coups, Iraq, rendition, torture, drone bombing . . . .
Depending on how you look at it, we are absolutely the last country on the planet anybody should hold their breath waiting for us to do the “right thing”.
. . . police state, war, war, war, vast domestic spying apparatus, coup, war, coup, crushing of unions, war, coup, price gauging of life-saving medicines, using populations in developing countries to test drugs without their consent, claiming water rights and charging for water across the globe, war, war, war, destroying the environment, jailing journalists, war, aggression, nuking, jailing and abusing whistle blowers, giving “aid” to trap developing countries into following neoliberal economic models, war, war, war, and more . . .
. . . oh, and don’t forget the much vaunted Humanitarian Intervention.
@ PI
Yeah I could have been more comprehensive in making my point, but I got a cramp in my left and right hands simultaneously. : )
But thanks for the assist. Always appreciated. : )
Good to know there’s always sisters and brothers in arms willing to take up my slack around here. Sometimes combatting the buffoonery around here is exhausting. I’ve never understood how Glenn keeps up his persistence and pace. Must be the good living in Brazil. : )
I figured you got tired! I did too. There is only so much cruelty and corruption one can consider in a short time. Hope you have good living too these days.
that’s the recipe from the DNC cookbook, in the section 3, fruits de la merde, pg. 48:
Bouillabaisse
right?
Don’t forget the vast domestic torture apparatus! Of course they use it here in Brazil too. GG is lucky to have free body guards. The rest of us, not so much. (He could help, but declines.)
But I still take much pride in having rid myself of their stain, and not being foolish enough to hold my breath.
WWII, Fire bombing and even Nuclear bombing of defenseless civilians and supporting Joe Stalin, an even worse monster than Hitler. The war was fought to save British Banksters and their empire, not the Polish and certainly not the Jews who were sent packing when the came to Amerika as refugees like the Syrians and Iraqis are now.
I endorse this for the balance that it introduces into the discussion. I have been dazed and dazzled by all the articles and posts that say “If Hillary is the nominee, I will stay home” or “If Bernie is the nominee, say hello to President Trump.” Paul Krugman, a man I otherwise admire, has recently been often saying the latter. But earlier, before the 2016 race really had started, he observed that the difference between any democratic and any republican nominee would be so large that it really would not make any difference what candidate either party nominated.
So I say to everyone who predicts the end of the world or emigration to Cape Breton (which is not the end of the world) if either Hillary or Bernie becomes the nominee, I say chill. It’s unlikely to make much of a difference in the end either in which party wins the elected or in what either is able to accomplish in office. Let anyone who wants to have an anticipatory tantrum if their prefered candidate isn’t nominated, get it out of your system, and be prepared to work hard to avert the apocalypse of President Trump/Cruz/Rubio. Just as there is not much of a practical difference in terms of the good that either Hillary or Bernie would be able to do, there is also not much of a practical difference in terms of the disaster that either Donald, Ted, or Marco would wreck.
This is a good time to get in touch with your inner yellow dog.
But-but-but-
only conservatives ignore reality and choose to believe in politically convenient fantasies!
More and better Democrats!
/snarkoff
More and better Democrats!
Now that’s a trip down memory lane! Thanks for the laugh; sincerely.
I got this email today from “The Pen”, theteam@peaceteam.net, and it appears that they are freaked out by Trump, to the point of already throwing in the towel on Bernie, instead of fighting all the way to the end, as he has declared he wanted to do:
Edited: Open Letter to Supporters of Hillary Clinton
“It is your job, if you support Clinton, to do everything you can to rally people to come out and vote for your candidate. Don’t accuse us of “weakening” Clinton because Sanders is a strong candidate. Because if you cannot handle Sanders now, what WILL you do against the king of all modern demagogues, Donald J. Trump, a man who oozes inflammatory innuendo from every pore. ”
“We’ll make a commitment to you right now. We will support whoever the Democrats nominate. ”
I wrote back to tell them that this is just what the Dems want, surrender by Sanders supporters so that they can run their Super Delegate fraud unhindered. I guess a lot of the “peace team” members are mainstream (spineless) Dems. But I won’t be donating to them anymore.
Not all of Bernie’s supporters are going to vote for Hillary if he loses the nomination: http://www.politicalpeopleblog.com/this-is-a-conversation-that-every-bernie-sanders-supporter-needs-to-have/
Of particular interest is the poll further down the article.
We can count on the neoliberal Democrats to play every note on their tired old Wurlitzer to try to scare the electorate into supporting them.
But there is not very much at stake for them, as they manage to come out ahead whether they win or lose elections.
Heartily agree. What I find even more astounding now is how so many in the Clinton camp are willing to disparage Sanders supporters, given that in order to win the general election they would have to rely on the very people they are currently leveling attacks of sexism and racial ignorance at. Sure, every primary cycle has a certain degree of political in-fighting, but something about this one feels particularly vicious and arrogant.
I’m waiting for the other shoe to drop. “Sure, we said you impressionable, boy-crazy young women would burn in hell for not swearing loyalty to us, but you’re not going to let TRUMP win, right???” The specter of Trump will drive some, but not everyone will be driven by fear, especially when so much bitterness remains.
While most of my friends are Sanders supporters, most of what I see are attacks on Hillary all over my newsfeed. I remain neutral. I think Hillary is judged unfairly harsh. By the time the primaries get to my state, it’s pretty much already been decided anyway. I’d go for either Sanders or Clinton.
The Hillary camp also comes across to me as incredibly arrogant and entitled. They offend me.
Moreover, if Hillary wins the nomination (by superdelgate bullshit or otherwise) there’s no way she can generate the enthusiasm out here for Bernie Sanders. Even if Bernie endorsed her and tried to throw his votes her way, the throngs that have turned out for him, the people getting out the vote, the massive numbers of small contributors who finally feel their $27 matters — that can’t and won’t transfer to Hillary.
As you note, all her campaign can do is try to get Bernie’s people to so fear Trump in sufficient numbers that they come out to vote against him. Not for her.
Also consider this: the one thing both Sanders and Trump supporter share is passion. White hot passion. Piss ’em off, dash their hopes, or otherwise offend them in the slightest of ways, and they’ll stay home on election day. And that poll above that shows the more people see of Clinton, the more unfavorable they become while the more people see of Bernie, the more favorable they become is exactly why Debbie Wasserman Schultz scheduled the debates the way that she did and dragged her ass on having more debates. She don’t need to be Hillary’s campaign strategist when she’s already the head of the DNC’s protection racket …
If we get a general-election presidential matchup, for 2016, between Donald Trump (R-New York) and Hillary Clinton (D-New York)…I would go ahead and predict a Republican pickup to elect Donald Trump the 45th president of the United States.
The Democrats have a willful misread on the electorate. Not just nationally. They have it in their own party.
How does one reach the conclusion that Hillary Clinton is the more electable candidate when, in the first three calendar caucus/primary states (Iowa, New Hampshire, and Nevada), she failed to reach 20 percent support from the youngest voting-age group of 18 to 29?
In general elections, 18 to 29 is the Democrats’ best age group. The 65-plus group is best for Republicans. (The in-between ones, 30 to 44 and 45 to 64, typically side with the party which ends up prevailing.)
Hillary Clinton has been best with the group which votes for the opposition party.
Brining it back to 18 to 29, that is embarrassing. The first three states. The first two, Iowa and New Hampshire, have been retained on the Republicans’ and Democrats’ schedule (same date for both parties) because they’re comfortable with the processes…and the two states set in motion the likely trends which will play out during the primaries lasting through at least Super Tuesday (which, this year, is next week on March 1, 2016), the day most are undeniable able to recognize which candidate will land a party’s nomination.
It would have been one thing for Bernie Sanders to beat Hillary Clinton, in Iowa, New Hampshire, and Nevada, with, say, the mid- to high-50s percentile of 18 to 29. I could stretch it to say, “Okay. That he beat her by 25 points (62 to 37) or 2-to-1 (66 to 33),” in support from 18 to 29 voters. But, for crying out loud…what the hell kind of political party’s frontrunner fails to get 20 percent from 18 to 29 voters?
This Democratic Party’s electoral hopes, for 2016, is starting to smell really badly. Hillary Clinton’s support is from blacks (because they are at least double the size in their Democratic primary vote than they are in the general election), women (as Bernie Sanders wins comparable margins from men), seniors 65-plus, $100,000-plus incomes, and turnout: the 45 to 64 and 65-plus group is typically about 50 percent in the general election; in the primaries, from both parties, they’re 60 percent and above. That explains why Hillary Clinton barely eked out at that +0.2 “victory” in Iowa and her 5-point margin in Nevada, a state good at reflecting national demographics in which she did not carry the Hispanic vote.
Bernie Sanders beats everyone on the domestic issues. The kind of leadership he has to offer is on par with the period of the 1930s to 1960s. The type have-nots can relate to with their “income inequality.” But, he has an obstacle that is on his way. No, not the Republicans. It’s the Democrats.
The Democrats, who seem to think that endorsements win elections (like film critics prizes often lead to an actor winning the Oscar), are in a bubble. And I am not the only one commenting here who senses that their bubble is going to burst. I think there are plenty in the Democratic Party, when not on camera, who sense it is coming. But, they would rather take the loss, even with the concern over the U.S. Supreme Court replacement, than back a candidate who can be transformative. Bernie Sanders wants the Democratic Party to move from the party of Bill Clinton to the party of Franklin Roosevelt. And the Old Guard there, the “establishment,” want to make sure that doesn’t happen. (Hey! That’s their livelihood. Their money. Their comfort.)
What I’m sensing will happen is this: The Democratic Establishment will get their way. Hillary Clinton will be their 2016 presidential nominee. Donald Trump, with a Republican pickup, will get elected the 45th president. Trump will serve either one or two terms (it doesn’t matter how many). If Trump turns out to be a two-termer, his Republican Party will definitely lose majorities in the U.S. House (first) and the U.S. Senate between the midterm elections of 2018 and 2022. (Historically, only Franklin Roosevelt, even to more than one term, held on to same-party majorities in both houses of Congress. And even his Democratic party suffered losses in 1938 and 1942.) If Trump is a two-termer, the year the Democrats win back the White House will be 2024. By that time, the Democratic Party will either remain the party of the DLC Clintons or it will get back to the truly domestically liberal FDRs.
I think, if the inside Democrats care about their future, what will need to happen is that the FDR-like move to an ideologically driven left-wing party will get reborn. (There’s lately developing trends suggesting that is brewing. That’s what that 18 to 29 vote, from all three states, was revealing.) This 2020s Democratic Party will be adjusted for modern living. And they will achieve this by first seeing the departures of out-of-touch, Old Guard people which start with the Clintons and Al From. And then the careerists, like the ones in the Congressional Black Caucus PAC (most notably John Lewis, who is not to be respected any longer), will finally leave the stage. And replacing them will be a party which is forward thinking on domestic policies, less corporatist, less globalist, and not merely transactional.
This is long overdue.
And…
In the meantime…
Thinking of the future (more than just one year from now)…
President Donald Trump doesn’t sound too bad after all.
If Sander’s can’t win minorities he will not win the general. Heres how Sanders win convince minorities to vote for him in the primary period. The media and especially Morning Joe favor him heck republicans are running ads reminding African Americans how Hillary treated Obama in 08 to help Sanders. So it’s not like he’s not getting help in other ways. Also Sander’s would be fighting tooth and nail against Trump polices i think he would disagree about a Trump presidency and if you thought Bush tax cuts on the rich was bad wait until you get a load of Trump’s tax cut for the rich. Oh yeah keep thinking Trump presidency doesn’t look so bad.
Very astute analysis, sir! It is “spot on” as our UK based friends would say. President Trump sounds better than President Clinton, I know that. The more Clinton talks the more reasons she gives me not to trust her. And Trump can at least laugh at himself…can’t say the same for Clinton.
Very well-reasoned, thank you for taking the time to post. Whatever happens I hope the DLC-type stooges get purged.
Quite well-written and -reasoned post. Thanks for the analysis and much food for thought.
I’ve lost track of the number of times I’ve followed reading a Glenn Greenwald article with the words, “I love Glenn Greenwald.”
By either criteria Bernie is the hands-down winner. He’s also not a liar…
In the event that Hillary Clinton rigs her way to the Democratic nomination, I (genuinely) hope that many of Bernie’s supporters have learned their lesson from the Obama Administration, and are prepared to send the political Establishment and the fascist Trump a strong message of dissent by voting for Jill Stein. Jill just got endorsed by Chris Hedges the other day, and her campaign is stronger than it was in 2012, having already qualified for matching funds. If enough of Bernie’s supporters and anyone else that is disgusted by both Trump and Hillary’s policies and character take a stand and vote for Jill, she could get 5% or more of the vote and the Green Party would be a major party nationwide, better able to challenge the corrupt Establishment in 2018 and 2020 and start winning state and Congressional elections.
DEMOCRATS are going to send TRUMP a “message” by NOT voting for the Democratic nominee in the general election?!? Yeah, they’ll send the message that they are more insane than he is. Did you sprain anything when you contorted this situation into a plug for your 3rd party candidate? lol
No, not DEMOCRATS, but progressives; people who want to see our country realize its potential, who want to live in a society in which everyone enjoys the same rights, in which the government works for the people instead of for an oligarchic elite.
The die-hards within both wings of the Party bombard us constantly with their half-truths concerning the dire consequences of electing someone from the other wing, but in reality the President’s power is extremely limited. What makes you think that Donald Trump would be any more successful in dealing with Congress than Barack Obama was? Or Hillary Clinton. By electing Jill Stein to the Presidency, the people will tell both wings of the Party that their way of doing business is no longer acceptable, and they are going to lose their jobs unless they start putting the interests of the electorate first. Before those of the corporations, or of the billionaires, or of other nations.
i’ve shopped this around, and i’ve got a few people who say if Bernie’s out then they’ll
vote for Trump, ‘solid’ democrats every one. the impression i get from it is let’s just
f’ing get it over with, ‘creative destruction’ or Walking Dead ethos, or what ever let’s
end this getting pecked to death by ducks and go out (as a nation) in blaze of stupid
hoping all the while we’ll take a few of ‘them’ (They Live aliens/global elites) with us.
I am a leftist, mid-life Democrat who will absolutely vote Trump, end of debate, if Hillary is allowed to take the nomination. Lets just fucking get it over with, indeed. If this house isnt for actual leftists or even just informed voters with integrity, then lets burn down this house and make another elsewhere.
I’m sure Mr. Trump will be delighted to indulge you, and burn it down with fire as red as the comatose orangutan living on his head. But your impulse demonstrates that you feel hopelessness, which is intelligent, but the most dire effects of a Trump presidency are unlikely to affect you (unless he starts a nuclear war w Russia or China) but will affect many down the chain, minorities, undocumented immigrants, women, etc. So try to control your nihilistic impulse, and let the Dems know what you are thinking (only you will know who you vote for) and threaten them. It’s their election to lose, but either way, we all lose if it is Clinton–Trump. So don’t go with a loser (either one) but at least work for the future of the kids. We olds have done well, and had the benefit of good times. They are facing despair, which I believe is causing the opioid epidemic, and they need our help.
You’re conflating Democrats and Independents. Many of Bernie’s supporters are Independents, aka the largest group in the country (43%) and the group that actually decides elections. Democrats will vote party line, whereas Independents will not vote for a warmongering neoliberal wholly owned by Wall Street and Monsanto.
Stein’s politics are my Green politics but you can’t just show up with a fringe party’s nomination and expect to make headway against the major party candidates.
Yes, Jill Stein is one third party candidate leftists can and should get behind. I’m voting for her on Tuesday in my state’s primary. Sad that third party candidacies more often than not go ignored by even liberal sites such as this. At least The Real News Network has given her campaign some attention, though not nearly enough.
Cool. I live in Illinois, where we unfortunately don’t have major party status statewide (we have it in Congressional Districts 5 and 12 though, where we have contested House primaries and people running for precinct committeeman), so I can’t “officially” vote for Jill Stein in the primaries. But the IL Green Party did have an internal primary in which members got to vote for which Green primary candidate they wanted Illinois to represent at the GP Nominating Convention. I quite proudly voted for her in our “unofficial” primary.
But yeah, I wish The Intercept would start covering third party candidates. I’m rather confused as to why they aren’t; maybe they might after the Dem/Repub primaries are over.
I’m voting Bernie in the primary, because I want to see Clinton derailed, and eliminated, and the Greens don’t have the power yet. But if the Dems rig the primary and Bernie loses, I’ll vote for Dr. Jill in the election. Again.
This is absolutely key. Lefties, fed up with Clinton? Fine, but vote for Stein (or a similar leftist candidate). It sends a clear message to the DNC to move left, not right if they want more votes (as opposed to sending the message by voting for Trump to move right, thus shifting the Overton Window further right, as Bill Clinton did).
So sure, hold your nose and vote for CLinton in the general, OR vote clearly to the left, with perhaps a strongly worded letter to the DNC explaining why you did as much.
Also, vote local, down ballot, off year elections, and take over your local Dem party (and school board). That’s how we build a real progressive electoral movement.
Voted for her in 2012, and will vote for her again if the Dems sabotage Bernie. By the way, why aren’t more women getting behind her? She’s a far superior candidate than Clinton. Hasn’t voted to kill any women and children as far as I know.
I’d like to see Sanders consider Dr. Jill Stein as a VP candidate partner, and sooner rather than later. She’s much more presentable, intelligent and ethical than Clinton, and TA DA!, a woman, so there goes Hillary’s supposed attraction for the woman, not that she isn’t losing it already to Sanders. That would be a powerfully SANE partnership.
Didn’t vote for Bill, won’t be voting for Hillary. She will lose big because a lot of Bernie supporters will not vote for her, myself included.
I’m not alone in thinking that Hillary is so obviously motivated more by history than in governing the country, that she’s easily seen as the phony she is by anyone with a lick of sense. Put another way, she’s just like her husband, only more so.
I’ve never thought that Clinton would win the oval office. Conservatives will turn out in droves to beat her back. And, she’s not getting a damn bit of help from me. I’m suffering mighty heavily from Hillary fatigue. Fatigue!! Jesus, I’m fucking sick of her, and so are millions of others who are obviously desperate for someone other than Hillary to run on the demo ticket, as witnessed by her resounding non-wins in Iowa and New Hampshire by a white-haired, 75 year old Jew and avowed socialist who came out of nowhere.
My prediction is that Donald Trump has only to smooth a few edges, be slightly more inclusive to pick up disenfranchised demos, and he’s going to hand Hillary her self-serving fucking ass in a basket in the general, and she’ll finally be done.
Hillary is an outstanding public figure who has worked her entire life for women and children’s interests. She has been the subject of a decades of misogynistic investigations aimed at keeping her – the first viable female presidential candidate – out of the White House and, yet, she is still standing, in the arena, poised to be the next president. All these polls are poppycock. She will CRUSH Trump in the general election. And she will deserve it. She is smart as a whip, qualified and has the fire and determination to take on special interests. It takes an insider to create change from the inside out. She can and will do that. There’s nothing fake about Hillary. She’s the real deal, not a back bench Senator who hasn’t passed any significant legislation despite decades in the national legislature.
Before the first democratic debate, I knew I was going to support Bernie Sanders, and, if Clinton was chosen, I would vote for her in the general election. However, after seeing how slimy her campaign and her supporters (sadly, such as Paul Krugman) have been to Sanders and his supporters, there is no way in hell I’m voting for her, even if it means having a Trump or Cruz end up in the White House. I just wonder how many more Sanders supporters are like me out there. Good luck to Hillary, she will need it in November.
I am a Sanders supporter just like you, and I dont wish her luck at all. I wish for her to lose the nomination, or, failing that best outcome, to lose the general election to Donald Trump by the biggest margin since Herbert Hoover.
I either hope that if she is the Democrat nominee she will either be perp-walked out of the Philadelphia Convention Center or will lose to Trump in a historic landslide.
I have been around long enough to see the elections of Jimmy Carter and Ronald Reagan, but I have never seen anything like Trumpmania. I don’t think either Hillary or Sanders can beat him in the general. Sounds crazy, but five months ago who would have believed a prediction of Trump sweeping three of the first four GOP primary states by yuge margins?
Personally, if Hillary gets the nomination via a corrupt process that gives herea quarter of the delegates needed for the nomination before a single primary vote is cast, she deserves to lose and lose badly. The Empress has no clothes, and Trump is the only candidate who will gladly point that fact out in a debate matchup. Can’t wait to see it :)
I like Hillary, she’s “likable enough” (I voted for her over Obama in 2008 in fact, and don’t regret it, I think we would have been better off those first two years with her as President), but the thought had occurred to me weeks ago that her long public history is unfortunately the perfect foil for Trump’s campaigning technique. Not fair, but true.
He gets free media attention, NPR vomits Trump speak, even leads with it, and all the work, issues, accomplishments, bills in the works, details Sanders has on plans, are kept in a lock box… Trumps popularity could be flushed if our so called fair press investigated HRC’s affairs, and gave Senator Sanders ( and young people betrayed by establishment media AND politics) the warranted scrutiny for WHY he is a beloved figure promising to give the grand enema to beltway malfeasance with OUR money. Hail to the thieves, and damn the media for their complicity!!!!!
Weird -the GOP is going all out to discredit their candidate that’s most preferred by their electorate.
Is the Pope a Catholic? – NO! Not if we want to avoid WW3.
Clinton is perfectly willing to sacrifice her party’s chances of winning the White House in order to feed her massive ego. There is also the DLC attitude that it is preferable to lose elections than to allow leftist Democrats to gain more power within the party.
Anyone running for national office has a massive ego, including Bernie. And, that is not a criticism.
One thing to consider is that with Trump, we may very likely see a crystallizing of motivation and a higher turnout to defeat him among those constituencies (e.g., Hispanics, Blacks) who historically support Clinton.
Check out this article from CurrentAffairs as to how a Trump-Clinton election race will play out: http://static.currentaffairs.org/2016/02/unless-the-democrats-nominate-sanders-a-trump-nomination-means-a-trump-presidency
@ Michael Wilk
And the DLC/DNC will get precisely that–losses. Big time losses all over the country which they seem to specialize in since DWS took the reins. Which, quite frankly, is probably what is necessary to clean house within the ranks of the Democratic Party establishment–they are all put out to pasture as paid lobbyists for the very people they claimed to have fought against. As predictable as a clock striking 11:11 twice a day–from Dick Durbin to Barney Frank to Howard Dean.
Perhaps there is a misunderstanding as to the definition of ‘electable.
‘Electable’ means being on the list of candidates approved by the Very Serious People. The Very Serious People know how to weight the polling data in with other Very Important Factors to determine if the candidate belongs on the Approved List.
Be guided by the Very Serious People. Otherwise democracy will become unmanageable. Don’t throw away your vote by voting for someone not on the List.
In a word? No.
“But given the stakes we’re being told are at play if Trump is nominated, wouldn’t one want to base one’s assessment in empirical evidence rather than pundit assertions no matter how authoritative the tone used to express them?”
The guys at 538 had this to say about hypothetical match-ups: “Ignore hypothetical matchups in primary season – they also measure nothing. General election polls before and during the primary season have a very wide margin of error.”
What isn’t in doubt is that Trump polls really badly with Independents. Given how long Clinton has been in the public eye, I’d say it should be more easy to see how she’ll do with Independents; Bernie however is a wildcard, the electorate haven’t had a candidate like him for a long while.
I’d say Bernie stands to do pretty well with Independents considering the fact that he is one.
I once thought that the rising cost of oil, coupled with the natural increase of labor cost in developing countries, would turn the economic tide back to middle class of developed economies sooner than later – in the process, I believed it would return the types of jobs that were once standards of middle-class employment such as agriculture and manufacturing.
However, the downturn of the oil market, coupled with increased mechanization, and negotiated trade terms that aren’t reciprocally beneficial, lead me to believe that the future of the Western worker is behind the counter at a coffee shop. This is a system that paralyzes class mobility, the great promise that was once at the foundation of the United States.
The service economy favors urban dwelling, while at the same time it makes home ownership nearly impossible. The result is an entire class of people who live their entire life in debt and devote a substantial portion of their take home to servicing that debt and paying for essential goods and services, yet they are never able to increase their equity stake in the economy.
Hillary Clinton and the neoliberal wing of the Republican party represent a continuation of that phenomenon. Under their aegis, debt protections will slowly be eliminated and a modern form of debt-slavery will arise.
While this occurs, they will, with absolute conviction, believe that financial institutions are immune to taking similar responsibility for their actions because of their contribution to the “supply-side economy.”
Phenomenon like the wholesale debt swaps, which concealed the extent of the Greek debt and allowed Goldman Sachs to profit immensely when their bonds matured will be commonplace. Despite that fact that GS knew the bonds were overvalued (because they were the architects of the scheme), GS still profited when taxpayers were forced to make payments on the bonds that GS themselves had purchased- knowing the bonds were toxic. GS made billions in fees and bond maturations because they knew that there was no risk to their investment. All this, yet Americans cannot discharge medical debts, student loans, and taxes.
This is the economic system that Hillary Clinton represents. One where there are two sets of rules. One for the middle and lower classes and one for the super-wealthy. This is why a vote for Hillary Clinton puts the United States and its partners in the liberalized Western economy at risk- they will barter the rights of the many for the privilege of the few, and they will use their enormous military and the nebulous threat of terrorism to distract the populace while they destabilize regions all in pursuit of new territories to financially leverage for their benefit.
Is this the world towards which we should aspire? I sincerely doubt that anybody other than those who stand to profit from this system would think so.
S. Glass: I don’t know who you are or where in our world you are located. But I do know this … If I could I would high five and hug you in person. Then again, I would probably have to ask your permission first. OX
S. Glass
Exactly! It appears you understand precisely what is happening and why.
Well said, all of it. I’ve been singing a similar tune for 30+ years to no avail – it’s as if we’ve returned (or more likely simply morphed) into a 21st century version of the era around the birth of the industrial revolution. Debtor prisons, literally, have returned.
And if not the actual four walls of a jail cell keeping you in check, there’s the lifelong debt-load and the subsequent inability to move elsewhere where things might be different – because the lack of ‘discretionary’ income, and now, the lack of jobs that pay enough to fund such transitions has been sucked up by the parasitic ‘credit industry.’ As if they actually create anything anymore that adds to our common well being – quite the opposite.
And then, as Presumptuous Insect rightly noted, we bizarrely add (and seek to actually trumpet theses things as desirable and necessary) our own contributions to progress:
One thing is certain: until we get the money out of governance we’ll continue on this path, as there is no self-governance possible when laws aren’t actually written by the governed. Also certain is that this change sure as hell won’t happen if Hillary or any of the GOP get elected, as they are all self-interested to the extent that they are no longer representative of the vast majority of Americans.
On that note, best get out and vote.
A recent article provides more indications that there’s change on the way:
Apparently I broke the link to the article by Jon Schwarz, so I’ll try again:
A recent article provides more indications…
I’ve thought about this trend quite a bit. Before even Lutz’ poll confirmed what he had all suspected- that while younger voters have traditionally been more liberal, Millenials are even more left than usual- it was clear that this was incipient in the younger populace. Many were likely too young to participate in the Occupy movement, but there is no doubt that the movement was a definite cultural presence during their formative years.
I don’t think it’s possible to point at the Occupy protests, or the financial collapse, and say “this is why they are so liberal” because the Boomers, too, were social activists, but not nearly to the degree that we are seeing now.
It seems that there must have been a systemic change to the memetics of political thought and culture. The obvious answer to the question of the catalyst is the Internet. It seems to promote cultural relativism, exposes developing minds to cultures and perspectives that they would likely have never seen in our racially and class segregated world, and promulgates the idea of the universality of the human experience. In short, the Internet develops humanists and not dogmatists.
Sanders isn’t the ne plus ultra of Millenial political candidates, but he hits enough of the marks to matter. Social justice, economic equality, the environment, and authenticity are qualities that Millenial voters demand. What’s interesting is that they don’t just make these demands of their political figures, but also of the companies with whom they do business. There are few companies in the Millenial space who do not have a socially conscience aspect to their brand. It seems they have started voting with their dollars, let’s hope they start to vote in elections.
If they do, then real change to our corrupted political system is possible.
“she is electable” I would suggest is code language for “Clinton is acceptable to the one-percenters”. Sanders could be fifty points ahead, and he would still be unelectable to the one-percenters.
Sanders and Trump are both free of the standard corporate funding model. Sanders gets two-figure donations from regular people, and Trump is self financed. Neither has a dependable record of maintaining the status quo. Sanders has a record of getting arrested fighting for civil rights, and Trump has only now left his casinos and TV shows for politics. Which one do you think Wall Street fears more?
Sanders has a well defined set of deliverables…raised minimum wage, maternity leave, free tuition, etc. Trump has a well defined list of scapegoats. Rapist-Mexicans, terrorist-Muslims, journalists that ask him questions, etc.
in a contest between them, which would the one-percenters prefer? Sanders is their enemy, but perhaps he is more predictable. Trump is a billionaire, but who knows what he might do to his economic class-mates once he starts to actually having to….do something in office.
It’s a nightmare scenario for the very rich and powerful. Their money would have no way of directly affecting either candidate.
Right on point. If the DNC continues to push for Hillary it is going to bite them in the butt in November. No question. I cannot vote for her under any circumstances. Our only hope is for Bernie to be the candidate for the Democrats.
People like you are why Trump will win
@ Will
Nope it will be on you and the DNC and any Democratic Party member who foists someone like Hillary Clinton on the Democratic Party electorate.
The Clinton worldview is deader than dog shit and everybody knows it except member’s of the Clinton’s elitist fan club.
members not member’s . . . typing too fast and not reviewing posts. My bad.
Editor’s Slap to you, rr!
Yah, wish there were an edit function here…
The spoiler theory? Here at The Intercept? I would have thought that anyone who regularly reads TI’s articles would know better than that, but I was mistaken.
That’s the favorite whine of the Dems. I can hear Louis CK saying it perfectly, ” You SPLITTTT the vote”, “your candidate was a SPOILLLER”.
Man, I hate them. I hate the Dem party and their brain dead faithful. I want nothing less than to witness their utter destruction in my lifetime. The Rethugs are doing it to themselves, the Dems need a push. They think they are smarter than the TeaTards. They are not. S. Glass explained it clearly and concisely above. When Obama, Schumer, Feinstein, Kerry, Clinton, etc got up and called Edward Snowden a coward and traitor, they demonstrated what a bunch of fascists they are, with no concern what so ever for the Constitution, or our rights under it. Elite POS, not worthy of anything but my contempt, and certainly not ever getting my vote again.
They don’t care. Their hatred for Hillary overrides their common sense. It will take sane Democrats to keep the fascist Trump out of the WH. Many here live in a fantasyland in which Jill Stein in a viable candidate.
@ Julie
I don’t “hate” Hillary Clinton. At 50 years old I’m well aware of her time as FLOTUS and everything in between. I simply disagree with her worldview, policy positions and lack of political integrity (if not personal integrity).
But hey good luck getting her elected without a lot of help from those of us who you believe lack “common sense”, are living in a “fantasyland” or who are not “sane”. Last I heard our votes count as much as your votes.
Great article Mr. Greenwald. Frankly I see alot of the same causes powering both Sanders and Trump and its the fact that both parties are obviously corrupt, not just a little but hurting the country corrupt, and Sanders / Trump can both show that they don’t go down that path (Sanders his experience and Trump’s money).
In a Hilary vs Trump election alot of those Sanders voters who don’t want that institutionalized corruption (which Hilary quite personifies) are not going to turn towards Hilary, they’re going to go to the other not “bought out” candidate – who wants to keep social security etc., Mr. Trump. It’s a bad bet to assume Hilary is going to beat Mr. Trump. After he beats her, then the GOP congress will dismantle ObamaCare which Trump doesn’t care one way or the other about.
I am somewhat surprised by GGs blasé attitude towards the outright, blatant and outspoken racism/white supremacy embodied by Trump. Maybe he is correct and other GOP candidates are as bad, but they don’t go around “saying” these things that directly. That matters, it shows a very dangerous climate and the support Trump gets should terrify us.
On this particular point, idk I mean yeah it’s a nice answer with polls to the electability argument, but on the other hand the election is far, polls are fallible, and we would ignore those polls if we didn’t like Sanders.
I do agree with the overarching point though, if it’s Trump vs Clinton, he’ll win.
I think bernie seriously would beat out trump bc I’m pretty sure there is thousands of voters just like me that would rather not vote then place their vote for a lieing deceiver like Hillary or a moron like Trump.
She will make the trains run on time. She is the most competent.
But I do not ride trains much, and I think Sen.Sanders would try to do more things that I agree with. But you know, it is possible we would have an 8 man court for four years. The republicans are not likely to lose their majority, and having denied Pres. Obama for a year, why should they let Pres. Sanders get a nomination through in four? After all, he is associated with the word “socialist”. No republican can tolerate that.
Salon did a piece a while back on the logic of letting the GOP have this election b/c iirc no political party keeps the Executive Office for more than 3 election cycles. You’d have to dig for the article… but as I remember there were some interesting arguments in it.
Found it:
https://www.salon.com/2016/01/17/fine_give_the_gop_four_years_the_liberal_case_for_either_bernie_sanders_or_electing_a_republican_president/
It’s problematic to look at head to head polls right now. Hillary Clinton has been the subject of almost continuous attacks from the right for 25 years, Bernie Sanders hasn’t. Sanders would fall quickly once the attack ad machine ramps up.
Inapplicable. The “reasons” the right spews as to why we should hate Hillary are, for the most part, utterly insane.
By contrast, the reasons so many of us here, and so many people under 45, detest Hillary is entirely related to the odious truth about her. The GOP can rant that Bernie is a “socialist,” and so what? The word appears to be losing it’s bogeyman power.
The truth about Sanders can’t hurt him, and the lies the right tells about Hillary would no doubt have analogs about Bernie — but that would be true about any Democratic nominee. Surely you haven’t forgotten the current president who is a gay Kenyan Muslim Marxist who spends each night reading Saul Alinsky and deciding how to impose Communist Sharia law?
You know, I hear this a lot. The best they have managed to pull up from the archives is “Bernie Sanders honeymooned in Russia,” “Bernie Sanders is a SOCIALIST!” (which they seriously call everyone now, few care anymore) and that’s about it. Hillary’s team has been working its butt off to find dirt on him, but all she can come up with is “he’s a single-issue candidate,” and “he’s unelectable.” I’d argue that many attacks on Clinton in the last 25 years have merit. She is constantly embroiled in scandal after scandal, many of her own doing. Now, she has found herself in this speech transcript scandal that is clearly of her own doing. I can hear the ads already, “most Democrats don’t even like her, so why should anyone else”?
The socialist attacks may not work on left wing primary voters but they will work on general election voters, also his proposals for major tax hikes will hurt him, and remember all the panic the GOP managed to drum up over Obamacare in 2010? Well think what they’ll do about a single payer system
I’m going to vote for Sanders in the primary, but I think The Intercept is carrying this cheerleading too far. When you hype the “huge electability gamble”, when you attribute Trump’s rise to “racism” in unguarded terms, it makes this sound more like a Usenet post than a news site. I mean, Sanders says a lot of things I approve of, but as we know from the Obama experience, that doesn’t prove very much. It’s not worth foaming at the mouth over a couple of points in some polls that do not come with a monkey back guarantee if Trump wins after all. I think I’d have preferred to see this drier and more neutral … I’m not quite sure how you should write it, but I bet The Atlantic would nail this, get all the same points and facts across and have the same political impact but seem vastly more aloof in doing it.
In a few years, the Democrats will probably have office, probably be failing to get anything done, for which we should all be unspeakably grateful, since at least getting nothing done doesn’t include starting a war with Iran, the people who were all fervent supporters will not know each other, and the average guy on the street will be as hard pressed to remember which of these candidates ran against who as I am now trying to remember which year McCain ran, which year Romney, let alone who they faced off in the primary (I don’t think it was Bob Dole…). But The Intercept, God willing, will still be going strong. So reserve a little self-respect in preparation for that day.
I want one of them “monkey back guarantees”.
“monkey back guarantee”– a truly delightful phrase.
Dang! The way your mind works and your exceptional literary skills never cease to amaze me, Glenn. I don’t have to agree wholeheartedly with everything you write but more oft than not I am apreciatively in awe. We could use someone of your caliber serving on the U.S. Supreme Court. :-)
Ops! My bad … Spelling correction … Appreciatively.
Are you his mom?
I’d be so blessed and proud, Lol! Actually I think of Glenn more like one of my humanitarian bros (as opposed to one of my sisters :-)
http://www.pyramidreading.com/literary-analysis-skills-intro.php
You get used to it after a while.
The litmus test of electability is a cancer on the American politic, because of its numerous negative consequences. It encourages diminished expectations on the part of the electorate, and actually encourages corruption, because of the notion that as a candidate, I need not be clean, but rather just a little less dirty than my opponent. Moreover, this has been tried, several times, over the recent presidential electoral cycles, and has in every case produced candidates (and consequently presidents) who were (are) not up to the task.
It comes back to Einstein’s definition of stupidity as trying the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. The real negativism on the part of the US electorate is not that they choose republicans or democrats, but that they choose either, in the belief that there are no alternative choices. Rationality would demand expanding one’s horizons, and looking outside, letting the old parties die the death they so richly deserve. But alas, the USA is a nation dominated by believers, as opposed to thinkers.
Perhaps electability is overrated. Yet it is one one my top four criteria for choosing a candidate.
Yet, it is Clinton’s supporters that are saying not to vote for Bernie, alleging he is not electable.
My Criteria, order unimportant:
– Do I agree with their policies?
( Bernie A+ Hillary B based on policies she claims now)
– Are they capable of leading in that direction?
(Bernie A Mayor and great record in Congress with handicap of being Independent) (Hilary B – as she has never lead anything and will be attacked at least as much as Bernie on policies where she does not support business)
– Do I trust them not to change their policies?
(Bernie A+ Hillary D)
– Are they electable?
(Bernie B+ Hilary C+,
see the polls and what they have/will throw at Hillary,
some of which is true)
I am not saying that electability is unimportant, but rather that it is a secondary criterion. My own feeling is that Bernie Sanders is in a better position to sap the strength of Trump than Clinton is, because Clinton is part of the establishment that Trump supporters so despise. The fact that the DNC and MSM, together with the knee-jerk old feminist women and politically correct democrats favor Clinton will aid Sanders in capturing support from Trump if he is nominated.
As I’ve said before, I am not a Sanders supporter, although I love his stand on domestic issues. But his foreign policy stands are toxic, so I will vote for Jill Stein again.
Much remains to be seen, as it’s still early in the process. But the polling numbers you cite at this point do indeed expose the media lie that Hillary is more electable than Bernie, and do so – this is the really important point – empirically. Very nice work on that score. One huge factor I’m paying more attention to on the Democratic side is the role of super delegates. If the party remains more or less evenly split between Hillary and Bernie as it is now – the establishment with her, the grassroots with him – and the super delegates throw the nomination to her in Bush v. Gore fashion, it could do lasting damage to the party and open a huge lane for the Republicans. It would be great to see The Intercept dig in to the super delegates and analyze their roles and backgrounds etc. My hunch is they have a lot in common, a pedigree likely antithetical to the movement bubbling up from below.
I understand why some would stay home on election day or write in their pet’s name for US Prez (I often write in my pets on state and local elections) but, as terrible a person Trump may turn out to be, he can’t possibly be as incompetent, repulsive and dangerous as president Hillary. So I’ll vote Trump.
I am going to vote Sanders in primary, by the way. I switched to the Demo party 8 years ago (no I was not in the GOP) to vote for Obama as the lesser evil alternative to evil Hillary.
If the choice is between Sanders and Trump, I’ll vote Sanders as lesser evil of the 2 so Mr. Greenwald is correct, Sanders is the more electable.
You seriously think that Hillary is more evil than Trump? Have you listened to any of the things that he’s said?
Please do share with us Arth, why anyone else in the world cares or would be impressed that you so little value and mock the very limited role you have in self-government (something our founders pledged their lives to achieve) that you think it amusing to write your pets’ names on your ballots.
Oh, come off it! I suspect that wherever Arth is is pretty much like where I am. My pets are eminently more qualified to serve in Congress than the representative from my district, and likewise the two senators from my state. Personally, I believe that the best way to increase voter turnout in the present climate would be to enable people in all precincts across the nation to vote for “None of the Above”.
Hey, David,
You wrote “share with us”. Can you please identify who the ‘us’ is. I suspect it’s not “you and your pets” so, who is the ‘us’ you are speaking for?
Or…. WAIT… A… MINUTE!!!!
It’s the ROYAL ‘us’, right? King David???
Perfect Article.
And Trump has his crossover message in the General Election which could put Trump in the White House.
Trump: Cheaper Universal Healthcare for ALL Americans at least some of it payed by the govt and possibly all done through Single Payer which Trump supported till April.
And Trump has a simple Healthcare goal “no more people dying on the streets”.
Save Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid NO cuts! This gets Florida votes from Clinton.
End Middle Class Killing Clinton’s NAFTA, GATT, WTO and now TPP you get Ohio and possibly Michigan/Manufacturing Sates and Union Democratic votes.
And Trump will do something about at least a few of the Wall street/Billionaire tax abuses.
And Trump will give upper Democratic Middle Class professionals a tax break all the while providing a Social Safety Net for All Americans.
Clinton will lose voters ALL across these issues in the General Election.
And even if Clinton shifts on these positions few will believe her.
And more and more people spontaqniosly say online they will vote for “Sanders or Trump but NEVER Clinton”.
So a small but sizable chunk of Sanders voters will go for Trump.
And 1 in 4 Union members polled in an Ohio city, who have already made up their minds who to vote for, will vote for Trump.
I dont know looks like a recipe for a Trump landslide to me and Glenn Greenwald reporting points out the real ELECTIBILITY problems concerning Clinton.
It’s a mindboggler to me the Democratic Establishment seems to be out f touch with the base.
In the past the Democratic Establishment and Obama played the “Where you gonna go?” card with the dissatisfied base.
This election the answer is simple Trump.
Hillary is the most hawkish, pro war, Israeli firster candidate in the entire race, and tied at the hip to one of the most prolific mass murderers on the planet – Henry Kissinger.
I’ll take a blowhard Trump(who mentioned he would be neutral between Israel, and Palestine) over Heil Clinton any day.
Matt Taibbi has been following Trump on the road and has some typically fantastic observations. http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/how-america-made-donald-trump-unstoppable-20160224?page=9
This is interesting with respect to Clinton’s problem with electability:
“What these tweedy Buckleyites at places like the Review don’t get is that most people don’t give a damn about “conservative principles.” Yes, millions of people responded to that rhetoric for years. But that wasn’t because of the principle itself, but because it was always coupled with the more effective politics of resentment: Big-government liberals are to blame for your problems.
Elections, like criminal trials, are ultimately always about assigning blame. For a generation, conservative intellectuals have successfully pointed the finger at big-government-loving, whale-hugging liberals as the culprits behind American decline.
But the fact that lots of voters hated the Clintons, Sean Penn, the Dixie Chicks and whomever else, did not, ever, mean that they believed in the principle of Detroit carmakers being able to costlessly move American jobs overseas by the thousands.”
Just drawing from a bit of the article, if Clinton is associated with big lib’ral government by right-leaning voters, and Trump is making arguments about jobs, drug prices, and “bloodsucking” insurance companies that might have drawn some undecided voters to Clinton…. and if Clinton is also trying to compete in the upcoming one-on-one race by being far to the right of people like Sanders in order to attract right-leaning voters, then where does her advantage lie against Trump?
I just read this Taibbi article myself, and tweeted out the link. While I cannot say I was as prescient as Taibbi in thinking that Trump had a real chance at the nomination, I didn’t dismiss him as readily as the punditocracy did. This is at least 20 times more interesting now than I ever thought 2016 would be.
Really juicy demagoguery!
This bit strikes me as potentially prescient:
And as bad as our media is, Trump is trying to replace it with a worse model. He excommunicates every reporter who so much as raises an eyebrow at his insanity, leaving him with a small-but-dependable crowd of groveling supplicants who in a Trump presidency would be the royal media. He even waves at them during his speeches.
“Mika and Joe are here!” he chirped at the MSNBC morning hosts at a New Hampshire event. The day after he won the New Hampshire primary, he called in to their show to thank them for being “supporters.” To her credit, Mika Brzezinski tried to object to the characterization, interrupting Joe Scarborough, who by then had launched into a minute-long homily about how happy he was to be a bug on the windshield of the Trump phenomenon.
You think the media sucks now? Just wait until reporters have to kiss a brass Trump-sphinx before they enter the White House press room.
Pls God, will someone send this Taibbi article to Barrett Brown? He would laugh…
While indisputable, this doesn’t explain Trump’s appeal.
We humans have a tendency to discover our explanation in exactly the places we look. Who knows why? Maybe the light is better there.
Trump’s appeal can be summed in one word. It is a word that marks Americans since before the revolution.
Americans love their bullies. From slavers to Simon Cowells, from witch trials to McCarthyism, from Indian Wars to the global war of Terror, American rejoice when they have an enemy to subdue.
Trump succeeds because he understands and celebrates this grand American tradition of blaming the scapegoat.
Calling the electorate angry or anti-establishment or frightened by terrorism or worried about the economy misses the point entirely.
Americans love bullies.
When George Bush challenges a third world country usint the largest, most technologically sophisticated, and most advanced military in the history of the world as his weapon, he doesn’t act with restraint. Yet despite this weapon bully Bush pretends himself a victim when he says,”bring it on.”
(This sort of self-pity seems just under the surface of all bullying. It’s as if bullying behavior originates with and enduring sense of aggrievement.)
When Trump shows up and bullies the Republican party (which itself has endured by promoting bullies in the tradition of Pat Buchanan or Dick Cheney), Trump speaks to the base Republican. They (other candidates) don’t fight back because they know an alpha dog when they sniff him. They can’t outbully Trump.
Muslims? Latinos? Blacks? The poor? Gays? Palestinians?
They’re the enemies of the Republican Party. Not because they threaten the Party (or the country) in any realistic way, but because for years the Republicans have relied upon victimizing the weak.
Trump does it better.
This is exactly the sort of exhortations that precede a lynching.
Based upon resentment and self-pity, Trump explains,
Poor bullies being told they can’t bully today.
What is a good American to do when faced by enemies on all sides?
Buy a gun. Have a few beers. Code racist epithets with words like “thugs” or “gang bangers.” Pass laws to keep “them” from voting. Don’t let “them” sponge off the entrepreneurs and the job creators. Stop letting pansies interfere with political correctness. Stop “them” from killing babies. Stop the beheadings with bombs and missiles. Shot them, torture them, make the sand glow …
Anything! They’re destroying America!
When Trump says:
he means, “you have been mistreated. Therefore you have my permission to mistreat the people that I put in front of you.”
Anticipating this, let me predict what the general election will sound like:
Sanders: “I want deliver services and sanity to government …”
Trump: “Jew, socialist, liberal, jew, Muslim, immigrants, jew, illegal immigrant, New York jew socialist…”
Forewarned is forearmed.
(btw: I support Sanders.)
Brilliant analysis.
If only you would have started with that…
Anyway, your post in an exercise in hypocrisy. You like Sanders because he bullies the “1%,” some of whom actually earned their money (“They did build that.”) But yeah, I’m guessing you’ll disagree. But
is indisputably true for Trump AND Sanders. Pick your poison.
Oh look.
Another subscriber to The False Equivalency Digest.
Calling for revised tax policy isn’t bullying.
It’s called “political advocacy.”
Demanding the arrest and deportation of millions of people isn’t political advocacy.
It’s called “bullying.”
One should be able to distinguish the one from the other.
Have you ever looked at the list of the 10/20/30 richest people in the country? Yes there are some people who “earned their money: Warren Buffet, who thinks he should be paying more taxes, and Bill gates, who is determined to spend most of his money on charity work, and thinks leaving too much money to his kids would be bad for them. And there there is a WHOLE bunch of people who actually did NOT earn all the money themselves: there are Sam Walton’s 5 kids, and there are the Koch brothers, each of which were born with silver spoons in their mouths. And then, a little further down, there are a bunch of hedge fund managers who don’t actually produce anything themselves, they just skim off some of the profits of the people who actually DID build something.
All those derivatives were backed by what again?
Lobbying Congress to raise student loan rates is really hard work.
Skimming 3% of every transaction is tough to do cost effectively …
Multi-million dollar CEO salaries, offshore manufacturing, crooked trade deals, etc.
Ever work for a poor man?
Ever work for a greedy bastard?
I grew up in Silicon Valley in the 60s/70s. Everyone knew someone who worked at HP. Great pay, benefits, vacation, work environment – all done on net 10% profit.
Come Ronnie Raygun and friends with Supply Side Econ and they declared net 20% was sooo easy to obtain – you just take it from the workers.
I spent 10+ years at HP and watched it head for the cliff. I bailed before Fiorina grabbed the wheel and hit the accelerator. By 1995 the big brain drain at HP was over. Now we have Google, which is modeled after the old HP Way.
“The best predictor of Trump support isn’t income, education, or age. It’s authoritarianism.” Mathew MacWilliams
What I found is a trend that has been widely overlooked. A voter’s gender, education, age, ideology, party identification, income, and race simply had no statistical bearing on whether someone supported Trump. Neither, despite predictions to the contrary, did evangelicalism.
Here is what did: authoritarianism, by which I mean Americans’ inclination to authoritarian behavior. When political scientists use the term authoritarianism, we are not talking about dictatorships but about a worldview. People who score high on the authoritarian scale value conformity and order, protect social norms, and are wary of outsiders. And when authoritarians feel threatened, they support aggressive leaders and policies.
For some time, I have studied authoritarian attitudes among Americans. This December, under the auspices of the University of Massachusetts Amherst, I conducted a national poll measuring authoritarianism, along with more typical demographic and political factors. It found that, nationally, only authoritarian attitudes and fear of terrorism — not income, age, education, or even race — predict with statistical significance whether someone will support Trump.
Both surveys measured authoritarianism with a simple battery of four questions related to parenting. Political scientists, including Marc Hetherington, Jonathan Weiler, and Karen Stenner, have used these questions since the early 1990s to estimate authoritarianism because of their accuracy in predicting authoritarian behavior.
[snip}
Individuals with a disposition to authoritarianism demonstrate a fear of “the other” as well as a readiness to follow and obey strong leaders.
http://www.vox.com/2016/2/23/11099644/trump-support-authoritarianism
I’m sure there’s some truth to this.
Okay. I still have not mastered html tags. Sorry.
@Sebastian and @Milton Wiltmellow –
Authoritarianism…YES. That’s what really makes this nutjob so dangerous. And Milton, yes, Americans do seem to lke bullies.
Let’s just say I’m praying HARD now.
1) The article is carefully crafted to never actually explicitly support Sanders. Clever.
2) Qualified (for the Presidency) criminal>bigoted assclown>Sanders. (This ranking reflects the views of Macroman only and does not reflect the official position of Macroman, Inc., which is currently a contender to provide free education under a Sanders administration, for a fee.)
3)
Arrrggghhhh. Hey, don’t let the fact that you don’t know what “free trade” or “globalization” means, or how those concepts relate to actual “free trade agreements” (hint: these agreements do not further “free trade” or “globalization,” just like every other government action does the opposite of the title/preamble) or other actions of the oligarchs get in the way of you saying that free trade hurts the poor. Nothing wrong with telling people that are suffering poverty falsehoods that, if these people believe it, will only hurt them further, right? What’s more important than actually helping the poor? Saying shit that makes it sound like you help the poor but you really starve them — hey, wait a minute — I might have to retract #1 above. You might actually BE Sanders. Hmmmm. Anyway, it is wrong in every sense to go around diagnosing problems you haven’t even begun to study. It does more harm than good and is only justified by the feeling it gives you — that you’re right and genuinely want to help the less fortunate. But it would still be wrong if I, not being an MD, starting telling people that sunscreen causes melanoma. Even if my intentions are good, doing so is irresponsible, immoral, and counterproductive, just like your quoted statement above. (I still love you, don’t worry.)
4)
Eh. I would say in an election, electability must matter the most by definition. The subsequent statements just simply imply that you (GG), for some reason only known to you, think that “aspirations…” etc. don’t redound to “electability.” Anyway it’s funny in a haha sorta way to say elections can be about something other than “electability,” a metric measured by…elections.
Peace to all and to all a good afternoon.
I left one reply to a comment fluffytheobesecat, but for some reason it did not post Great article Glenn and great comment fluffy at 3:02 PM.
It’s times like these that I wish you still wrote at Salon. The comment section there would be a bloodbath.
Oh c’mon — TI is exactly like Salon! You have to bookmark Greenwald’s author page so you don’t even have to look at the mountains of bullshit (with some rare exceptions) and then you get to play with the libtards (or whatever type you fancy) till your heart’s content in the comments. Same thing.
So you admit you don’t actually have any interest in discussion, you just provoke for it’s “entertainment value.” Great.
p.s. sad life you must lead, if this is your idea of a good time.
@ David
Don’t hold it against him too much David–he’s a libertarian economist and before that an investment banker who reveled in fucking human beings over for his own personal enrichment. That’s just the way he rolls. His opinions are about as morally centered and important as navel or dryer lint (which is to say the latter are amoral and the former are immoral although none of them amount to anything significant in the real world except as things that have to be discarded into the trash periodically).
Slander.
I do, however, revel in your hatred.
@ Macroman
Would you like me to pull your direct quote to that effect? Or would you like to attempt to sue me for slander?
But get this straight dimbulb, I don’t “hate” you. I don’t know you nor would I care to. And if I did know you in the flesh, I’d more likely than not laugh at you not hate you. You are as insignificant and irrelevant to me as navel or dryer lint. Hell I actually hold navel and dryer lint in higher esteem than I hold dimbulb econ professors at some shit school or investment bankers.
But my “hatred” is reserved for someone who can actually harm or hurt me or my family and friends in the real world. You’ll never be capable of that, so I couldn’t possibly hate you. I can “hate” what you stand for, but there’s no law against that I’m aware of and I’m sort of any expert in the law by comparison to you.
@ Macroman
And get it straight–slander is an actionable oral defamation while libel is a written one.
Man you’re dumb.
Quintessential rrheard!
Yes, please. Please also include the surrounding context — namely, (1) the 17 or so comments preceding it where you insist I’m immoral because of my career, and (2) the part where I say I “fucked your wife.”
No, mostly because I’m, like, totally intimidated by you.
Another two instances of one of your best witticisms!
You must have been a force to reckoned with at recess!
Another signature rrheard tactic — intellectual dishonesty.
Awwwwww.
I’m starting to get confused. I’m talking to rrheard, right? The whole “I’m a lawyer and smarter than you” schtick is waaaay overdue.
Are you still talking?!? I wonder how long-winded your retorts are to dryer lint!
There it is!
…slander is an actionable oral defamation while libel is a written one.
Cool.
As always, I appreciate your dedication to trolling someone so far beneath your unassailable character and intellect. I am truly honored. Hugs and kisses, Macroman
Whoops, meant to blockquote “…slander…one.”
@ Macroman
Yawwwwwwwn.
And you claim to be a Yale grad? Why am I not shocked.
And I never said my character or intellect were “unassailable,” but by comparison to yours I’m quite convinced I’m a human being while you are that crackly dried spittle stuff that forms in the corner of Rush Limbaugh’s mouth when he does his radio program.
Again, like many before you around here, I find it quite telling that people like you hide behind a pseudonym. A garden variety former investment banker coward who talks shit peddling his weak sauce to impressionable minds for a six figure paycheck–nothing more nothing less. I’ve met many like you over the years. You are no different.
Your creativity is also awesome. I forgot to say that before. One of my favorite things about your responses to me is that they’re never repetitive.
For instance, above you say “Why am I not shocked. [sic]” instead of “shocker,” which you say a lot when you learn something for the first or second or third time.
Uh huh. The ad hominem is as endearing and convincing as ever. Again, I revel in this bullshit. That’s why I love you — I don’t even have to say anything mean to you; your phrases speak for themselves. You’re the best troll a macroman could ever have (with one caveat noted below).
I preceded your arrival, sir, going all the way back to Salon, where I was commenting before you were. You just didn’t notice me until I pointed out you misused “fascism” in a comment and you went apeshit. That was a while ago now and I still don’t think you’ve taken a much-needed deep breath. You like to view me as the villain you are convinced exists out there on the interwebs. You are a valued plaything for the object of your unjustified antipathy, “nothing more[,] nothing less.”
I had no idea. You only say that in every conversation. Your clever ploy will not work, though. Macroman is my alter ego, and that’s the way it will stay.
But as you previously insisted, you’ve never met me. Yet you also insist you know the intentions behind my actions and so on. I just find it all hilarious. You got me pegged! I’m a cartoon — an up-to-date Scrooge McDuck!
Your sarcasm detector is in need of repair. When that’s done, you can revisit our previous conversations and discover, to your horror, that you misunderstood the whole thing. Or not, and we can just continue this stupid little dance where I say something and then you troll me and then I make fun of you and you never even realize it. I’m fine with that too.
But your intellectual integrity is wholly absent, and I’d prefer a troll that had at least a little. Any time you’ve properly corrected me, I’ve admitted it. Any time I’ve properly corrected you, radio silence. Yet you call me a “coward.” You are the coward who can’t even admit when he’s wrong when he accuses Mises of not understanding a theory he authored (for example). If an inability to admit you’re wrong isn’t cowardice, I don’t know what is. It is a basic part of being a grown-up, especially one as smart and mature as you always say you are.
And you are a person that clearly lacks a loving support network of friends and family that you desperately try to replace with fans on a comment section. (“Look guys! I won a case!” Holy shit, buddy. And you even included “Not to blow my own horn…”! Spectacular.) I think the reason for that is people around you know that you are intellectually dishonest and you couple that with self-righteousness that is off-putting in the extreme. Just my two cents — if you were half as smart and upstanding as you think you are, you’d have friends. There’s not a lot of people that want their interpersonal relationships to be reduced to “Either agree with me, or you’re stupid and bad while I’m, obviously, but I’ll tell you anyway, smart and good. Did I mention I’m a lawyer, like a really good and moral one?” Brilliant.
See you soon!
Well, big man, I was able to chuckle at this.
You are corrected properly with some frequency here and yet you fail to acknowledge the fact.
I direct your attention to your inability to comprehend simple logic.
Do you not have some assorted mouse droppings to be sized?
@macroman “Any time I’ve properly [sic] corrected you, radio silence. “
It’s nice to hear from you again. I presume you are referencing our little spat over Snowden vetting articles here. I thought you had conceded that one, because my last response to you collected all of our various relevant comments on the matter in chronological order and destroyed your narrative about what we were both saying. I thought the radio silence there was an implicit admission that the only thing you know about logic is how to spell it.
Just keep saying I can’t do logic. You’ll win eventually. Hang in there!
@BlowingWhistleLoudly “Sic” is used when you are quoting someone and there is a mistake made in the quote. There are at least two senses in which you can correctly use the phrase “properly corrected,” so if you think I’ve misused it, please correct me and I will happily admit my error and thank you for your help. I’m just that kind of guy.
@nuf said Here’s the comment settling the issue about Snowden vetting that you never replied to, lest you suspect I’m lying. https://theintercept.com/2016/02/08/hrc-inner-circle-lobbyists/?comments=1#comment-199925
Please please please try to respond to that one by telling me you’re the logical and correct person in this dispute. I can’t wait!
“Please please please … I can’t wait!”
Simmer down. I’ll give you time to rethink your request as the sun is out, it’s in the 60s, and I’m in Seattle.
(that means I’m going outside now because we don’t get much sun this time of year plus we are having the wettest winter on record)
Bwahahaha!
You are the fool. Benito’s comment settled the issue but you are like a dog with a bone. Your “simplistic and formulistic” logic rivals Scalia’s stupidity in stubbornness.
I walked you down the garden path to the woodshed. That you came along willingly is to your detriment.
Are you keeping an eye on those liquor labels as I suggested? Remember, any windfall will evaporate as quickly as that last drop in your bedside snifter if you do not spend wisely.
Hey now, don’t go quoting cliches I didn’t use! It’s dishonest.
I am comforted by the fact that my life is still better than those spent replying to anonomyous people on the internet telling them their lives are sad.
Whether Mr. Greenwald supports Sanders or not, the numbers don’t lie. It was the Clinton campaign along with the DNC who were precisely the ones screaming “not to vote for Sanders” because he was “unelectable”. Now that the tables have turned these same ones are whining.
Sorry, you can’t have it both ways. And Clinton (a 1%er) can’t have it ALL. It was hers to lose and she losing it. She is falling in polls whether state or nationwide. People don’t like her. She lies.
In the general, there are independents, repubs and dems who will vote for Sanders and that increases his base and is why there’s a better electability factor for Sanders.
I don’t know of ANY republican that would vote for Clinton. None. Independents are unlikely to vote for Clinton as well. And there are Dems stating that if Sanders loses the nomination they will abstain from voting for president.
Given the options on the Republican side, there will be crossover repub votes to Sanders but not Clinton. It is likely the case with Independents that they have already decided against the Republicans and will either vote Sanders or abstain.
Get used to it. Few wanted Clinton in 2008 and few want her now. America is sick of the Clinton and Bush dynasties. We’re done with the nonsense.
There’s almost nothing for the GOP to attack Sanders regarding except that “scary” socialism word. A word btw, thats become less and less scary to most Americans. Additionally, I agree with Mr. Chomsky who says Bernie’s positions are’t really those of a democratic socialist because his policies are really something more like the 1960’s than the EU, with the exception of “Medicare for all” which is popular with all the righties I talk to.
Hmm…….in the first debate between Trump and Hillary, the first thing Trump will do is whip out a set of handcuffs engraved with Clinton’s name on it and declare “I came, ……Benghazi emails were seen…..and Hillary will be handcuffed..”! It will be must see TV. Heck, Donald will declare that the cuffs will be put on an auction website to generate charitable funds for the Benghazi survivors..! Then…..after each question by the moderators, he will totally re-direct the questions to Hillary and request a copy of her emails documenting the trail of information on the topic discussed to make sure she knows exactly what she is talking about or not..! Heck, he will show up at Democrat town halls and actually start asking Democrats what type of jobs they wants the stinking Republicans to generate. Next, he will get in front of Megyn Kelly in a town hall and dare her to ask the Republican business owners how they are going to generate and finance the businesses the Democrats want to work in..! This guy will mop the voter’s floors with Republican mops and Democrat buckets..! (All the while Mexico is building a wall that Foxnews and Telemundo is not covering…!) The voter turnout will be …..YUGE…!
Who says all people on the left want Sanders over Trump?
Sanders supported the buggy F35 fighter, thus 700 billion to the MIC.
Sanders also promoted sending Vermont nuclear waste to a poor Hispanic community:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eoin-higgins/what-about-sierra-blanca-bernie_b_9233818.html
Furthermore, Sanders wants to continue Obama’s drone wars … I suppose this in the voters class interests.
It is amazing, the doublethink that the moderate left engages in. Both Trump and Sanders are very flawed.
@ Jamie
And both are lies. Bernie never supported the F35’s construction. In fact he said it was wasteful and unnecessary in light of other priorities. But what he did say, is that given it is reality that it will continue to be built and be the fighter jet of the future–the Vermont Air National Guard should be home to some of them. That’s called constituent service in the face of a reality that he could not change.
Same goes with the decontextualized smear that he wanted to dump Vermont’s nuclear waste in a place because it was a “poor Hispanic community”.
It was a three way agreement between Vermont, Maine and Texas to dispose of “low-level” nuclear waste [from the defunct Maine Yankee in Wiscasset] including “items such as scrap metal and worker’s gloves… as well as medical gloves used in radiation treatments at hospitals, . . . “. And that’s because the site was going to be constructed to be suitable, and was approved by the governments of all three states, for that sort of low-level waste disposal.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2015/sep/22/fact-checking-viral-graphic-critical-bernie-sander/
So what you’re arguing is that all the voters of Maine, Vermont and Texas hated “poor Hispanics” to the point they wanted to irradiate them. Which quite frankly is a stupid argument.
The bill passed Congress with overwhelming majorities on both sides of the aisle.
Pointing out that Sanders supported the F-35 is a lie? He voted for it; the Bernie fanboys need to accept that fact. Here is an interesting article on Bernie’s F-35 delusion:
http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/277-75/24583-bernie-sanders-doubles-down-on-f-35-support-days-after-runway-explosion
Note to Bernie fans: Just because some characterize Bernie’s enthusiastic vote for the F-35 differently, does not make them liars. You detract from your candidate by ignoring or glossing over his votes, and attacking anyone who dares point them out … but it’s cute!
Jamie – “the Bernie fanboys need to accept that fact.”
So, if you succeed in convincing… anyone…, that Sanders supports the F35 programme, in any way that is remarkable, how exactly do you see Clinton using that against him?
A year from now people will be scratching their heads wondering how they ever talked themselves into believing Hillary Clinton was some sort of unstoppable political juggernaut. She’s the greatest paper tiger in modern American politics.
can we also talk about how donald trump is actually less evil than hillary clinton in almost every way? most of those people talking about how scary trump is will go on to vote for clinton who has a proven neo conservative track record.
I almost want Hillary to win the Primary……. Almost-
just to be able to witness the absolute savagery and effectiveness of Trumps merited attacks on Clinton. oh my god…… just imagine the Carnage-
I also don’t believe people who support Trump believe he’s the ‘Best’ choice for President either. America is on Fire, out economy is being held together by duct tape and bullshit, our infrastructure is crumbling and debt is our currency, but we have more than enough for Endless Wars and Civilian Population Control-
No, people know America is burning, and Trump supporters just see the guy holding the biggest can of gasoline-
Well said. Glad someone finally said it; I was gonna have to do my first ever podcast if not for you!
Furthermore, Hillary Clinton may actually be a more menacing candidate than Donald Trump on foreign policy and trade, she may be the worse of the two evils.
I’ve been saying this to friends and family and I’m amazed that I’ve come to actually believe it. I am actually more afraid of Hillary Clinton’s foreign policy than I am of Trump’s. I am also more afraid of the fate of my social security (I’m 55) with Hillary Clinton as president than I am with Trump. Now I despise Trump. But that’s the reality of Hillary Clinton. She’s a dreadful candidate.
I completely agree with this assessment on foreign policy and trade. And the Executive has more authority over foreign policy and trade than most other issues. Scary.
“I am actually more afraid of Hillary Clinton’s foreign policy than I am of Trump’s.”
This. Assuming they both succeed at everything they attempt, Trump is marginally more damaging, in my opinion. However, many of Trump’s ideas are impossible or unconstitutional, and probably won’t come to pass, even under a President Trump. President Hillary Clinton would be far more effective at damaging the country in practice.
Hillary Clinton stands for making the same mistakes we’ve always made, the same way we’ve always made them. It’s the only position she’s remained consistent on.
If, like me, you believe that the US warfare and aggression abroad, which is now costing us trillions, and incurring unimaginable opportunity cost, has to end for any of us to have a hopeful future, you will understand why I think Hillary is an absolutely menacing figure. If she gets the nomination I am voting Trump, in part to protest the corruption of the DNC, and in part as a last desperate attempt to stop her from attaining the power she craves.
She is going to make Richard Nixon look like Pope Francis.
I agree. Trump would be less painful than Clinton but I still couldn’t vote for him. If it comes down to Trump or Hillary, my voice of dissent goes back to the Green Party.
Hillary Clinton is borderline unelectable – the fact that the majority of voters recognize her deep dishonesty, alone, should be enough to kill her chances. You dont become President with 2 out of 3 voters aware of just how dishonest you have always been.
Deja vu:- ‘Jeremy Corbyn could never become leader of the Labour Party as, very simply, he’s unelectable.’ So declared the UK political classes and all the media, except that the plebs thought a load better.
NO
http://bit.ly/1mjtOGT
Trump would destroy Hillary. He won’t be nice like Bernie is about, say, asking her to release the speech transcripts. It will be sad to watch. She’s too establishment to stand any chance against Trump.
Such a great point. They’re going to destroy her, and the media loves bashing the Clintons too. They’re going to play right along. One thing about trump is that he is immune to feigned media outrage over what comes out of his mouth. There simply is no Trump Kryptonite. Hillary is going to lose, and going to lose badly. Anybody who is energized by Sanders and is driving hours to be in his rallies, is going to sit out the election if Hillary is nominated. There just isn’t a single thing inspiring about her. She is a ready-made politician.
Forget the transcripts. He’ll just claim that the strong feminist character of “The Good Wife” is the opposite of Hillary: “You know that TV show about Hillary, ‘The Good Wife’? In that tv show they imagined Hillary standing up to Bill and divorcing him. They imagined that she would be strong, but its a fantasy of what we wish she were like. In reality, it’s the opposite: she’s weak. She doesn’t stand for feminism, and she can’t stand for this country.” (Now, it’s not true that on the Good Wife, the main character divorces her husband; however, this type of messy analogy is perfect for people to read their own misgivings about Hillary into.
“even after enduring months of attacks from the Clinton camp”
Clinton’s attacks have been ineffective because she and her surrogates do not want to alienate his voters for the general. Republicans will hit him hard on higher taxes, vacationing in the Soviet Union, and essentially being an atheist (it won’t matter that Trump is too). Though Bernie has not hit Hillary especially hard himself, the Republicans already have been for decades, and many of his supporters have no problem calling her corrupt. This is basically the same line of attacks Republicans will use on her, but she is still winning.
Please. You claim for the GOP attack machine powers that, if they had them, would have made the two Obama victories impossible.
And the Clinton campaign tactics are nasty, nasty, nasty. And note how the GOP copied attack strategies against Obama that originated with the Clinton campaign attacks of 2008: the birther bit. The Muslim bit. Yes, dear friend, Democrats invented those.
And she’s not “winning,” the race is tied.
She’s also been rated as an admirable person in opinion polls and just won NV. Trump will look ridiculous on stage responding to her arguments. In comparison with Bernie she is the superior debater. And even though we’re told to shut up every time we get a little excited about it, women want representation and we show up to vote.
Polls this early in the game are absolutely meaningless.
Sanders looks electable now, because the conservative attack machine is too busy trying to weaken Hillary.
If he gets the nomination, he will not have the resources or the experience to defend himself and, as soon as the attacks begin, his alleged lead over Trump will evaporate in a matter of weeks.
“or the experience to defend himself”
This. Is. Nonsense. Sanders has managed to stay in office in Washington, D.C. for decades despite being a socialist in all but formal affiliation. During the high water years of Fox News, right wing talk radio and 3rd way neoliberalism he remained in Congress. A man who can do that — even one from a quirky little state like Vermont — does not lack experience in self-defense.
His track record is quite public, and it is more indicative of ‘winner’ than Trump’s succession of artfully brokered bankruptcies. Sanders might even be able to get people to see this, however that is of little importance compared to his likely performance against Trump when the nominees go head-to-head in debates, on billboards and in the media. Trump will crush Clinton. She will speak sensibly about real policy issues and real accomplishments…………… and nearly no one will notice. Those of us who’ve long chosen to ‘notice’ these kinds of real data will respond tepidly, because we’ve also noticed her Gilded Age venality. She’s elevated her child into the modern aristocracy like a Borgia Pope. She and her husband run a king making operation funded beyond their predecessors dreams of avarice. And they’ve accrued personal wealth beyond the hope or fear of any ex-President in history.
Neither low nor high high information voters will choose her. Her only guaranteed voting bloc is sentimental, professional class, coastal baby boomers who can’t forget 1996.
What Fluffy said. As only she can.
I think your summary analysis of ” The Clintons in a Nutshell” is spot on! Wow! I tend to agree that “Neither low nor high high information voters will choose her. Her only guaranteed voting bloc is sentimental, professional class, coastal baby boomers who can’t forget 1996.” But one must keep in mind that the dirty tricks are are just getting warmed up on the back burner. It would not surprise me if it were the smiling face of the Republican Clintons (not Trump) who put the bullet in the back of Sanders’ campaign, especially if he wins the party’s nomination. Great Article Glenn!
Ahhhh. 1996. The memories:
Two years after Clinton shoved through NAFTA…… We get the Telecommunications Act which allowed media cross ownership- then the great Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act of 1996.
Awesome accomplishments in 1996 that we still realize the amazing benefits to this very day. The memories….
Centrist is defined as liberals going along with conservatives but rarely the other way around!
@ charliethreee
No centrists are Republicans who lie about being “liberals” so they can get elected as Democrats. And some centrists don’t hate gays and immigrants or Muslims. But there are very few of those “centrists” remaining in the world. And the sooner we get them cleared out of the Democratic Party ranks the sooner we can get to rebuilding it. If not it will be abandoned and something else will have to be built to replace it that advances “liberal interests” in a coherent way because that sure as shit isn’t the national Democratic Party apparatus.
“her Gilded Age venality. She’s elevated her child into the modern aristocracy like a Borgia Pope. She and her husband run a king making operation funded beyond their predecessors dreams of avarice. And they’ve accrued personal wealth beyond the hope or fear of any ex-President in history.”
Oh my! This needs to be put in bronze somewhere!
He has never been important enough to be a target of the conservative attack machine.
At this point in time, the “opposition research specialists” are planning the attacks that are going to hit him like a ton of bricks the minute he gets the nomination.
Let’s meet again in September to discuss how your boy is doing.
Correct, Sanders have never been their Public Enemy Number 1; Hillary has been in their crosshairs. At least nominally. But, for rather obvious reasons they’ve never put maximum effort into pulling out certain linchpins of the Clinton machine.
The Republican elite and the Clintons are equal opportunity-ists. Hillary’s most egregious acts have never been targeted by the Republican right, not in the way that Trump would use them. They have never hounded her or her husband over the Clinton Foundation’s funding sources, because too many of them have fed at the same troughs. Men who’ve worked on behalf the Carlyle Group, Bechtel, SAIC or certain sovereign wealth funds can’t effectively target the Clintons for cultivating similar……… relationships. They chatter endlessly about stains on blue dresses instead. In this, they are her allies, and always have been.
Moreover, the Establishment right wing noise machine is not thrilled with Trump and may not perform optimally for him. They are not happy about his Yuggge! promises in re tariffs, social security, Medicare, or job exports. Why the hell would you expect them to go to bat for him? Or to be capable at pushing his messages if they did?
I’ve never understood the claim that Clinton has more experience. It doesn’t make any sense from the standpoint of someone who’s running for an executive branch office for one. He was a very successful mayor in VT, she’s not been the head of any elected executive branch office. Also he’s sure as hell been in politics, in particular in Congress,a lot longer than she has.
Coastal baby boomer here, and I will never vote for Clinton, nor will any of my boomer friends and my family, and I do have fond memories of 1996.
But our incomes have been eroded, I’m tired of paying through the nose for health insurance, my adult kids being exploited by same, and war, war, war. Tired of it and sickened by Clinton and her backers who are itching to attack Iran on behalf of Israel. Haim “Israel first” Saban, who has been promoting her for president since 2004, is controlling the DNC and is without a doubt responsible for their attempted snub of Sanders, even though Sanders is bringing in the Independents who are needed to win the presidency. In my view if we get Trump for president, it will be thanks to Saban and the DNC.
Oops! I am a ‘coastal baby boomer’ and I can see right through Hillary as if she is a pane of glass. We baby boomers are a lot smarter than we have been erroneously been depicted lately. I resent this immensely. As if we are a bunch of senile old farts Pew! I feel enormous resonance with the young millennials. They are smart and clear eyed. Like we were in the sixties which is not that long ago by the way.
Hello! Nice to meet another boomer with some sense.
Wondered where you’ve been.
Sanders will not have the experience? You do know that, unlike Trump who has zero experience winning elected office, Sanders has been running and winning for 35 years + has over a half century of fighting consistently for the same issues of equality, Wall Street reform, universal healthcare, a living wage, etc.?
Trump could easily beat the GOP punching bags because they (like him) have no actual policy positions they believe in or differ at all from his tactic of throwing red meat idiocy that attacks Mexicans & Muslims, brags of carpeting bombing anyone for any reason to show “Strength”, worships at the altar of the 1% around whom all legislation revolves, all while spewing the standard, utterly meaningless, rote bullshit of “make America great”, “White Jesus is Awesome!”, “European Socialism Means Internment Camps And Mass Suffering”, etc., etc.
Trump’s base of support seems to consist of the Lib’Rul media who give him 24/7 coverage and low-information whites who blame minorities for all their failings, which is why Sanders consistently beats Trump in polling.
My compliments on another great article. As for Tony Blair endorsing Hillary, war criminals stick together. If Hillary bulldozes a nomination, we can be sure that Trump is the one candidate who won’t hesitate to discuss the Libya overthrow replacing Khadaffi with a failed state and el qaeda influence there. The fact the Sidney Blumenthal emails disclosed on New Years Eve corroborate Hillary’s prior knowledge of the likely outcome of the Libya initiative she convinced Obama into supporting reveal the extent of her evil, and Trump won’t hesitate to bring this issue up repeatedly. Since the accusations will be outrageous but true, I don’t see how her candidacy can withstand them, particularly since part of the Libya story includes the massive liquidation of sub-Saharan African immigrants by the triumphant Jihadis there.
Hillary’s record and character inspire a visceral contempt in all decent people who examine her record and simply view her public appearances. If the democrats want to stay in power, I don’t see how they seriously think they can do so with this paragon of crime, corruption, and arrogance, particularly now that it is apparent that a candidate fully willing to exploit these weaknesses is the apparent GOP nominee.
I used to respect Glenn Greenwald but I guess being unbiased is no longer a virtue in journalism. Yes, Clinton needs to answers certain questions and it’s surely okay to criticize her on her positions on issues that concern people.
But the fact is that Greenwald doesn’t criticize Sanders the same way. In fact, he doesn’t see anything questionable about him or his policy issues. Sanders is off the hook and Greenwald doesn’t make snarky and sarcastic comments about him on Twitter like he regularly makes of Clinton.
He’s the far left wing version of Faux News, really. Fair and balanced. Not.
Besides, why does Greenwald worry about who the Democrats nominate in the first place? To me that feels kinda unprofessional unless he admits to being a Democrat and stops pretending to be a real journalist. That way it would make sense that he worries about who the Democrats nominate.
He should just admit that he is biased. He’s a Democrat and a Sanders supporter. Aren’t you, Glenn Greenwald?
You have managed to whizz right by the actual argument this article is making. Also, GG has never, as far as I know, proclaimed himself a Democrat. Where is the world did you get that idea?
Can you argue against the data here that Sanders is more electable than Clinton? Can you argue that Clinton is not more associated in the public eye with the likes of Tony Blair and her dear friend Lloyd Blankfein (not to mention monster Henry Kissinger). Can you argue that Clinton does not come with years and years of unpleasant baggage ranging from accusations of questionable practices to outright corruption? Can you find some reputable polls that refute everything presented here?
If not you are a simple-minded tribalist.
Actually, my comment has everything to do with this article and the point Greenwald want to put forward.
Yes, you are right. Greenwald has never said he’s a Democrat. That’s what I said if you actually paid attention to what I wrote. He’s a clearly a Democrat and very obviously a Sanders supporter. But he pretends he’s an unbiased journalist who just observes and reports facts. So much for integrity as a journalist.
The question here is that Greenwald doesn’t really analyse the data. He doesn’t depend on anyone else’s analysis of the data either because just presenting this “information” as it is supports his own agenda. Which is getting Bernie Sanders elected.
However, as it’s been pointed out by some statisticians and analysts, the national polls of Sanders vs. GOP candidates are unreliable and inaccurate. Read Nate Silver.
You still have not addressed a single question. Give it up.
I actually did. Again, pay attention. Good luck!
“But he pretends he’s an unbiased journalist who just observes and reports facts.”
You are silly.
Yeah, go ahead, read Nate Silver…
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2016/01/nate_silver_said_donald_trump_had_no_shot_where_did_he_go_wrong.html
Um, Jude, you do know that Bernie didn’t run as a Democrat until this election for the presidency, right? He ran as an independent congressman and senator from Vermont, and was elected as such. (He did caucus with the Democrats, but as an independent.)
So Jude, I guess that mean Glenn Greenwald has long been an independent, which I suspect is actually the truth.
@ Jude
Glenn Greenwald has never once taken the position “I am an unbiased journalist who just observes and reports the facts.”
In fact quite the opposite. He’s made the argument, as have Prof. Jay Rosen and many many others, that this supposed “objective journalist” or “view from nowhere” idea is quite frankly factually and logically unfounded, and quite clearly never ever been the case for any journalist writing in the history of journalism. That you think such a thing is even possible means you don’t really understand what journalism is much less what journalists do.
“The New York Times and CNN and MSNBC Rulebook on Journalism” no longer applies. Everybody is biased. I am. You are. I’m sure Glenn is. And most of us appreciate the fact that he wears his disdain for the establishment on his sleeve for everyone to see.
By the way, “facts” about polling information is not “bias.” They’re facts. Clinton is going to lose to Donald Trump. Republicans can go after Clinton on a host of issues. What are they going to call Bernie, a Socialist? A 20 year old has no idea that a “soicialist” is supposed to conjure up images of Dracula. That’s only in the ossified minds of the establishment.
Glenn does not subscribe to the View from Nowhere and never has. If you want that, go somewhere else.
Excellent post, Glenn.
And don’t be shy. Make sure to give us examples of those unbiased “real journalists” who you admire so much.
Newsflash: Opinion journalists are allowed to have opinions. This is a ridiculous attack anyway, as has been repeatedly pointed out. Network pundits clearly have opinions and preferences as well, even if they try to hide them.
I agree on principle. However, Glenn Greenwald isn’t a pundit. Pundits on TV, for example, state their political biases. S.E. Cupp doesn’t try to hide the fact that she’s a Republican.
Greenwald maintains that he’s a unbiased journalist. He clearly isn’t. He’s obviously a Democrat and a Sanders supporter. He should have more integrity and just admit to it and not claim to be indifferent.
Clearly, you’re not a Glenn Greenwald reader. He actually “maintains” that there is no such thing as unbiased journalism, and he includes himself in that category.
Your claim that Greenwald is a “Democrat” demonstrates you have no clue.
Somebody buy Jude a clue regarding the concept of “unbiased journalist” and what Glenn Greenwald thinks of it.
It’s not Sanders, but Hillary Clinton who has defended the war criminal, Henry Kissinger.
It is Hillary Clinton who received money from Wall Street and refuses to release transcripts.
Hillary has flip-flopped on issues. She is for death penalty. Until recently, Hillary received money from prison lobbyists. She is the one using dirty tricks like her camp did in 08.
Unless I am mistaken, Glenn is using polling data that points to the idea that Sanders is more electable than Hillary Clinton in the general election.
Are you suggesting that Mr. Greenwald cherry-picked or fabricated the data?
Greenwald didn’t properly analyse the data. He just represented it as he is not a statistician. It’s not fabricated data but it’s inaccurate. Read Nate Silver’s analysis of those Sanders vs. any GOP candidate polls.
You are just making shit up.
Uh-huh, sure you did. Hey Jude, Glenn Greenwald has never, not once, claimed to be that non-existent thing called an “objective journalist.” He’s an activist journalist, in a long and noble tradition of those in the United States.
No Jude. What you dislike is that like all of the best journalists — activist or otherwise — Greenwald is meticulous about facts. (Oh, like everyone, he makes the occasional error. But very rarely.) The facts do not favor Hillary.
Jude, Glenn Greenwald has been exposing the toxicity of Hillary Clinton since well before this election season. What? Did people think he was suddenly going to stop documenting her vileness so as to to impede the coronation?
Glenn’s made clear Bernie Sanders is not Jeremy Corbyn. We here tend to really like Corbyn, and Bernie isn’t that good. Indeed, he’s too militaristic. But he’s hella better than fucking Hillary.
Finally Jude, Bernie Sanders has the virtue of being consistent — including about the things I don’t much like — over 40 years. The man is honest.
Honest, Jude. To say Hillary is a dishonest political hack would be to understate.
I actually did used to respect him. I even have his book about Snowden.
As for the rest of your post… It’s very Bernie Bro-ish. Not surprising you side with another Bernie supporter like Greenwald.
The truth is that Greenwald doesn’t question Sanders and doesn’t criticize his policies or ideas. There’s a lot that should be thoroughly looked at because the numbers don’t add up. Does Greenwald do this? Of course, not. He criticizes Clinton daily and writes snarky and sarcastic tweets about her all the time. But Sanders? He’s simply off the hook.
If activist journalism is supporting one candidate over another and being incredibly biased, I have a feeling you’re too young to remember what those activist journalists you refer to actually were about and stood for.
Good luck!
Oh Jude, dear Jude. I’m going on 60 years old. A woman who became a professional during second wave feminism. And now I sound like a “Bro?” HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
It’s a fucking shame, because there’s a total dearth of media dissing Bernie. All the establishment hates Hillary and worships Bernie Sanders!
Why, oh why, can’t Glenn Greenwald be that lonely journalistic voice criticizing Bernie1!1!!!111
If you’re being honest… Isn’t it just sad when a feminist of your age acts like a Bernie Bro? Using the same tricks and words to attack Clinton?
“Finally Jude, Bernie Sanders has the virtue of being consistent — including about the things I don’t much like — over 40 years. The man is honest. ”
Sorry, I forgot to address this earlier.
I would question Bernie’s integrity and honesty, too. He’s just as opportunistic as Hillary Clinton. I mean, if he were not an opportunist, why else did he join the Democrats just months before announcing he’s running? Where’s the integrity and honesty in that? It’s a classic example of opportunism.
And here’s another from a woman if that makes a difference to you and assuming you can read for comprehension:
https://web.archive.org/web/20140607170702/https://www.jacobinmag.com/2014/06/bro-bash/
And here’s another on the topic of the use of “Berniebros” by Glenn himself:
https://theintercept.com/2016/01/31/the-bernie-bros-narrative-a-cheap-false-campaign-tactic-masquerading-as-journalism-and-social-activism/
Here’s my take, and I’ve been a registered Democrat for all of my adult life and voted accordingly–I will never ever cast my vote for Hillary Clinton and when you Clinton backers are crying in your beer on GE night and blaming it on people like me, we will be laughing at you because you are exactly what is wrong with the Democratic Party–you tolerate corruption in your midst and are only marginally better than Republicans.
And here’s another newsflash, millions of us will either drop our lifetime party affiliations (and reregister as independent or otherwise unaffiliated) if Hillary Clinton is the Democratic Party nominee. Her worldview and those of her advisors are precisely why the Democratic Party is getting its ass handed to it all over this country. Because rank and file Democratic Party voters are sick and tired of being sold out by people exactly like the Clintons.
I’d rather get knifed in the chest by my political enemies than be stabbed in the back by my nominal allies.
So good luck on election night if Hillary Clinton is nominated on the D side. It will be a blowout of epic proportions and a lot of us will be laughing at people like you. Your cries of “Naderites” and “Berniebros” will be like sweet sweet candy to many of us.
Jude, you are a hoot. And btw, I assure you I am almost 60 years old. I’ve known Glenn Greenwald for 20 years and we practiced law together — I can’t lie here because several people know me quite well.
You say I “sound like a Bro.” That’ just…cute. I haven’t been so pleased since the last time I was asked for ID when buying wine.
Yes, it’s terrible to openly switch political parties. In front of everybody. To challenge a thoroughly corrupt Democratic establishment. If that’s opportunism: More please!
“You say I “sound like a Bro.” That’ just…cute. I haven’t been so pleased since the last time I was asked for ID when buying wine.”
Just remember that if you’re a Bernie Bro, Sanders doesn’t want your support. He said recently that he’s aware of these Bernie Bros and their sexism and thinks they are reprehensible. He also said he doesn’t need nor want them. So there. At least he has integrity on this issue.
“Yes, it’s terrible to openly switch political parties. In front of everybody. To challenge a thoroughly corrupt Democratic establishment. If that’s opportunism: More please!”
Cute. Once again there are different standards for Sanders than for Clinton. When Sanders is opportunistic, it’s great. When Hillary is an opportunist, she’s vile, simply Satan herself.
Oh, and for all those who say Greenwald has never said he’s unbiased… That could be true but he has never really disclosed his political position. If he has such integrity, why doesn’t he simply disclose the fact that he is a Sanders supporter? If he’s so open about not being unbiased (“because there’s no such thing as unbiased journalism”) then why is there never any disclaimer of his political ideology? We all know why. Because he wants people to perceive him as unbiased. He hides behind the idea of an unbiased journalist. That’s why he doesn’t disclose it anywhere. Duh! So where is his integrity?
Um because integrity isn’t a function of publically stating who you support or don’t in any particular election. Some people chose to, and others don’t. Not sure Glenn has ever openly endorsed any particular candidate for POTUS, although he has endorsed candidates that he’s engaged in fundraising efforts to support.
And whether or no my recollection about his openly supporting any candidate for POTUS, he has NEVER openly solicited funds for any POTUS campaign or suggested any of his readers donate to a particular candidate for POTUS. I could be mistaken but I’m pretty sure my memory is pretty close to accurate.
Hey since you think it is cool to refer to Bernie Sander’s supporters, regardless of gender, as “Berniebros” then presumably you have no problem whatsoever with us referring to Clinton’s supporters as “Clinton Cultists” or “Establishment Stooges” or “Hillary’s Fangirls” [you know like in the last go around when Hillary’s campaign referred to Obama’s supporters as “Obamaboys”.
Presumably you’re not that big a hypocrite, or are you?
If you’re being honest… Isn’t it just sad when a feminist of your age acts like a Bernie Bro?
Wut? OMG – what’s the acronym for laughing so hard the tears are running down my face? Dear God, Jude, thanks for that. I haven’t laughed that hard in a very long time. Jesus, Sweetheart, you should consider stand up comedy. If I’m not mistaken that’s a really slick reverse GET OFF MY LAWN!
[:: laughing laughing laughing laughing laughing ::]
Why did you respect him then? His voice seem to have been consistent for the past decade. Maybe you changed, not him?
I don’t see “Jude’s” claim about having respected Glenn Greenwald the least bit plausible, because “Jude” makes it clear in his or her comments that he or she knows nothing about what Glenn has been writing about and speaking about for the past nearly ten years. Either “Jude” is seriously comprehension deprived — which his or her comments strongly indicate is the case — or Jude is one of the lousiest, clumsiest liars we’ll ever see.
There’s a very good reason Glenn doesn’t attack Sanders in the same way he attacks Clinton.
Because there simply is no comparison between the 2 candidates in their weaknesses, their corruption and their mendacity. There simply is NO comparable record of Sanders’ corruption and greed.
It isn’t that Sanders has no failings, of course he does. It’s that Clinton’s failings are so monumental, so deep and so venal that they take up so much space in the room.
These are my favorite kinds of comments: I used to really like you and respect you . . . . . . . until you said something I disagreed with!
If hostility to establishment Democrats is something that makes you dislike a journalist, I really can’t understand how you ever liked or respected me given that such hostility has permeated everything I’ve written on the topic since I began writing 10 years ago.
Hah, nice try but you’re wrong.
This certainly isn’t the first time I’ve disagreed with you. For instance, I strongly disagreed with you and still do about the need to show or re-print Mohammed cartoons after Paris attacks in 2015. It’s absolutely necessary to show those images and yes, it’s a question of free speech. You didn’t think so. Did I mind? No, of course not.
I actually try to surround myself with different opinions unlike most people nowadays. I try very hard not to live in a bubble where I only interact with like-minded people and only hear opinions I already agree with. So, I have friends who are leftists and I have friends who vote for GOP. It makes life so much interesting.
But you, Glenn, mock other journalists who favor, let’s just say Clinton for example. How is that any different from you favoring Sanders? That’s my problem with you. Not the fact that I might sometimes disagree with you. I disagreed with Christopher Hitchens a lot (including his position on Iraq war… and btw, he despised the Clintons, too!) but that hasn’t stopped me from admiring him. He is missed.
It’s not different in that both are biased. But it is crucially different in that 1. Greenwald has never, not remotely, tried to hide that he’s biased and what his biases are, and 2. he traffics in facts and the facts do not favor Hillary; they condemn her.
Anyone who’s even casually familiar with both Glenn Greenwald’s writing over the last 10 years, and the consistent positions Bernie Sanders has taken for decades, isn’t going to be a bit surprised that Greenwald finds a great deal less to object to about Sanders than he does about the odious Hillary Clinton.
So you don’t think journalists like Greenwald should actually look into, investigate and analyse Sanders’s proposals, policies and his ideas and if they are actually realistic? I mean, as it’s been pointed out by countless of analysts and experts, the numbers in his proposals don’t add up. It’s a complete fairy tale with a whole lot of ifs. Doesn’t that matter when it’s Sanders?
And many others have looked at his proposals and have demonstrated that they do, in fact, add up.
https://ourfuture.org/20160223/the-sanders-economic-plan-controversy
And here’s another 170 economists who believe Bernie’s “bust up Wall Street” positions “add up”.
https://berniesanders.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Wall-St-Letter-1.pdf
I’ll take Reich, Baker, Galbraith, Black, Rufrano, and Miller’s opinions, et al, over the Rubinites that are backing Clinton’s campaign 6 days a week and twice on Sundays.
Here we go again. Y U No: http://smg.photobucket.com/user/diannaruggles/media/Y-U-NO-GLENN.jpg.html?o=115
@ Jude
Here’s the thing, there are millions of Democratic Party members who would rather have an aspirational “ifs” based champion, someone who will fight for what he believes in openly (even if he/she fails because there is tremendous prospective value in doing so over time), than someone like Hillary Clinton who will promise nothing, deliver nothing, and perpetuate the very status quo that is precisely what is behind the loss of Democratic Party registered voters in statistically significant numbers.
Hillary Clinton is the nominee and you will see that trend continue and accelerate–bank on it.
Like what? Please be specific as to the idea or proposal you think Sanders advocates and specific as to why it’s a “fairy tale.”
What meaningless bull shit. That fucked up paragraph is the same as what you can read from so many so called journalists who claim they are listening to all sides in order to come to their well considered “conclusions.”
If you really believe that supposedly surrounding yourself with morons, bigots, dimwits, liars, “pragmatists,” homophobes, warmongers, misogynists and other fools and dangerous people feeds your intellect in a positive way, and thus puts you on the pedestal you are claiming for yourself in this comment thread … you’re living in a bubble.
“morons, bigots, dimwits, liars, “pragmatists,” homophobes, warmongers, misogynists and other fools ”
None of which really exist. Outside of the world of media hyperbole substantial majority of all people are entirely and unexcitingly normal, their views and especially actions hardly ever deviate from the “common sense” center.
On the other hand, my real life experience tells me that those few perpetually angry fringe individuals who see “”morons, bigots, dimwits, liars…” everywhere typically do not have enough of real life human interactions to form any meaningful opinion about the rest of the society.
Obviously, such permeation passed through many readers minds unnoticed. Try marinating, bathing, and super-saturating your writing with hostility. Or would you have to write in all caps?
“I used to respect Glenn Greenwald but”
As my grandpop used to say, “Everything before the ‘but’ is always bullshit.”
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic establishments is the issues they don’t care about except to rile up their bases.
The Democratic establishment would rather have a Republican president – any of the current candidates would do – than empower an honest person like Sanders who would clean up at least some of the corruption in DC.
Allowing those same young liberal voters to elect Bernie may be so equally close to terrifying we soon see establishment status quo Republicans like Mitch McConnell endorsing Hillary.
A sign of the apocalypse, right?